Aging Millennial Females Provide a Cautionary Tale

Don’t be Carrie

The Millennials, or Generation Y, are currently aged 10-28. The oldest are just reaching the average age at marriage, and though 70% of them plan to marry and 74% want children, there are indications that many women are frustrated with their dating lives. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman) What’s the problem? Their careers.

In Why Are So Many Professional Millennial Women Unable To Find Dateable Men?Larissa Faw of Forbes writes:

My Millennial-aged girl friends and I never doubted that we would accomplish all of our life goals. Everything, thus far, has pretty much gone according to our plans. We were accepted into the right college, landed the dream job, and developed a network of amazing friends. Our apartments are beautifully decorated and we have closets full of stylish clothing. Romance hasn’t been entirely sidelined, but we don’t waste our time trying to cultivate a relationship unless someone is really amazing.

But now, a growing number of Millennial women are beginning to fret over the unanticipated consequences of prioritizing our careers before love. And I only need to look at my group of friends to see this reality. Again and again, year after year, my successful, gorgeous, and amazing friends remain kiss-less on New Year’s Eve. And on Valentine’s Day. And on the 4th of July. The only dateable men we encounter are either attached, gay, or otherwise involved in “it’s complicated” situations. We are coming to the realization that we were unwittingly playing a game of musical chairs — while everyone was pairing up, those focused on our careers are left standing alone.

I’ve been using the musical chairs metaphor since I began blogging – it’s been clear for two decades that women were outperforming men in education, and the current college ratio of 57% female, 43% male makes it undeniable that we have a serious problem with marriage prospects.

One third of today’s female college graduates will not marry a college educated male.

There are two reasons why Millennial women at the upper end of the age range are single and lonely:

1. They want high achieving men, and there aren’t enough of them to go around.

2. They are ambitious in their careers but lazy about their love lives.

For one, it’s not as if we are holding out for Jake Gyllenhaal, but we do have certain non-negotiable expectations for potential mates that include college degrees and white-collar jobs. Life has always gone according to our plans, so why wouldn’t we land a man with these (reasonable) requirements?

This unwillingness to settle for less than we think we deserve is joined by a lax attitude towards searching for potential mates. We’re busy dominating the world. We don’t have time to hang out at bars. While some of us explore online dating or take a more proactive approach, the majority of Millennial women have long assumed we would meet Prince Charming via friends, or through their own social circles. 

There’s nothing women can do about the sex ratio in college, but they can certainly be strategic in their search for a mate. Indeed, it is not a random game of musical chairs. By making the right choices, you can get a tipoff on when the music is about to stop.

How Millennial Women Really Feel About Their Careers

Faw observes that many young women are burning out at work by age 30:

Today, 53% of corporate entry-level jobs are held by women, a percentage that drops to 37% for mid-management roles and 26% for vice presidents and senior managers, according to McKinsey research.

She notes that “Many also didn’t think of their lives beyond landing the initial first job…Even those who did plot out their lives past the initial first career have unrealistic expectations about full-time employment. It’s not as if these women expected their jobs to be parties and good times, but many underestimated the actual day-to-day drudgery.”

More importantly:

While earlier generations may have opted out of the workforce through marriage or motherhood, these paths aren’t viable for these self-sufficient women, who either are still single or unwilling to be fully supported by men.

Meghan Casserley, in Is ‘Opting Out’ The New American Dream For Working Women? confirms that most working women (not just Millennials) want to step off the career track:

At a moment in history when the American conversation seems to be obsessed with bringing attention to women in the workplace (check out “The End of Men,” or Google “gender paygap” for a primer), it seems a remarkable chasm between what we’d like to see (more women in the corporate ranks) and what we’d like for ourselves (getting out of Dodge). But it’s true: according to our survey, 84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to.

“I think what we’re seeing here is a backlash over the pressure we’ve seen for women to perform, perform, perform both at work and at home,” says Leslie Morgan-Steiner, the author of Mommy Wars: Stay-at-Home and Career Moms Face Off on Their Choices, Their Lives, Their Families. “Over the past three to five years we’ve seen highly educated women—who we’d imagine would be the most ambitious—who are going through med school, getting PhDs with the end-goal in mind of being at home with their kids by age 30.”

Arguably the most famous working mom in corporate America today, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, wants women to stop dropping out. In her widely viewed TED Talk, Why We Have Too Few Women LeadersSandberg tells women the most important thing is to “Keep your foot on the gas pedal!” and not take any more time off for kids than is absolutely necessary. She holds herself up as a model of a loving and involved mother who also happens to have a big job. However, close viewing of the Talk reveals the following inconsistency:

“My daughter, who’s three…” (early in the talk)

“I have a 5 year old son and a two year old daughter.” (end of the talk)

This is a woman who does not know the age of her own child.

Kay Hymowitz, in The Plight of the Alpha Female acknowledges that Sandberg’s exhortations are futile.

Feminists have come up with some theories to explain the dearth of women in the C-suite: those in the running would necessarily be aggressive, a trait that men in power don’t like to see in women; executives and boards don’t believe that women are capable of the highest-octane work; women lack men’s sense of entitlement in the pursuit of fame and fortune. But “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All,” a recent, widely discussed Atlantic cover story, should help redirect the conversation to the obvious: it’s the kids. 

…Women are less inclined than men to think that power and status are worth the sacrifice of a close relationship with their children…Nothing in the array of work/family policy prescriptions—family leave, child care, antidiscrimination lawsuits, flextime, and getting men to cut their work hours—will lead women to infiltrate the occupational 1 percent. They simply don’t want to.

Hymowitz argues that this strong female preference to be at home with children is what makes the “end of men” argument silly. Still, I don’t think society is in good shape when we expect men to play second string, getting in the game only after women have opted out by choice. And what does that mean for men who want to marry? How can they advance in their careers when women who plan to step off in less than ten years are front and center until then, scooping up promotions?

Your Best Strategy For Finding a Mate

Prioritize relationships.

Don’t waste time halfwaying it or “just having fun” if you want to marry and have a family. 

Date for the long-term.

If you don’t meet your future spouse in college (few people do), immediately upon graduating think of every potential relationship as serious and lasting. No dating Mr. Right Now.

Filter, filter, filter.

Dads not cads. Filter in for character, and drop the checklist of superficial stuff.

Put the word out.

Don’t pretend to be fabulously single unless you want to stay that way. Let your friends, family and coworkers know you’re in it to win it. Accept as many invitations, blind dates, and introductions as you possibly can. Dial down the bar scene as your go-to weekend plan. Your chances of meeting your husband in a bar are not nil, but they’re slim. 

Your Best Strategy For Staying Home With Your Kids

Penelope Trunk wrote a post with some excellent advice: How to plan a career in your 20s to stay home with kids in your 30s

Key points:

Understand that your job performance is ephemeral.

For those of you who will fall into the 84% [who want to stay home], understand that the life you have as a high performer at work is going to end when you have kids. Priorities will change, and it will not matter that you are a high performer because you will not choose to sustain that when you have kids. Work is a place where you get external rewards for being smart and productive and a good team member. You do not get that at home.

Accept that you will fall behind. 

Women are performing at a higher level at work than men are right now. So, statistically speaking, when you decide to stay home with kids, the people you were better than will start moving ahead of you. It will kill you. Prepare for this. It works best to think of your career as a time in your life. You were a high performer when you did it, but now it’s over.

Live below your means. 

You know at age 23 if it’s likely that you’ll want to stay home with kids. Which means the minute  you get married you should adjust your spending for one income. This will always keep the door open for you to stay home with kids.

Pick your spouse carefully. 

If you want to stay home with kids, don’t marry a guy who can’t earn a living. If you want to stay home with kids, make it clear that even though you earn more than the guy, the guy will be the breadwinner. If you want to stay home with kids then you put all your financial hopes in the guy’s career. Whatever his earning ability is, then that is your earning ability, because you are a team, and he is the breadwinner.

Don’t be the woman who turns 30 and says, “Whaaaaa?” Plan ahead. Be smart. When the music stops, you want to get a chair, and with any luck it won’t be a barstool.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Abbot

    The escalating War on the Male Brain is reaching into the mainstream. Even so-called “qualified” men are going to take pause about what is out there waiting for them when they see garbage like this:

    http://nymag.com/thecut/2012/12/study-sluttiness-is-a-state-of-mind.html

    .

  • LJ

    That magazine cover was fake … it was a JOKE. Plus, SJP is now married (and so is Carrie, but of course that’s fiction and IRL you shouldn’t marry Mr. Big).

    I dunno — I actually think it’s more destructive to for young women to approach their dating lives with the mindset that reaching their 30th birthday without a wedding ring on their finger would be some kind of disaster. Recipe for ending up with the wrong guy.

  • deti

    Meh as to Faw, Casserley and Hymowitz. Same old, same old. Kate Bolick Part Deux.

    I suggest if a woman wants to marry, the earlier the better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Meh as to Faw, Casserley and Hymowitz. Same old, same old. Kate Bolick Part Deux.

      I suggest if a woman wants to marry, the earlier the better.

      I don’t understand this comment. I don’t believe any of the above gave advice, they reported facts. You may find it “meh” but I’m not talking to you, remember?

  • Escoffier

    Wow, I find nothing to complain about in this post :-D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Wow, I find nothing to complain about in this post

      Haha, I thought you’d be pleased.

  • Toz

    Realization of asset depreciation often lags the actual decrease in value.

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier
    “Wow, I find nothing to complain about in this post”

    Well, then, let me step up to the plate for you. I don’t want to go all hard core manospherian here, but I find it interesting that Susan can write this post, and then wholly deny the existence of a feminine imperative in our current culture. I don’t mean so much what she’s written herself, so much as the tone of the sources and the prism through which they view things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I find it interesting that Susan can write this post, and then wholly deny the existence of a feminine imperative in our current culture. I don’t mean so much what she’s written herself, so much as the tone of the sources and the prism through which they view things.

      This is a fair question. I fully acknowledge the role of feminism in society and its ill effects. This post is a clear example of the way in which I address these issues. The prism of the sources is, as you say, generally feminist. What I find surprising and therefore especially useful is that even these women are acknowledging what we know to be true. Most women don’t want high powered careers in lieu of children or time with their children.

      I also find the “cautionary tale” aspect useful as a way of providing advice to women in their 20s.

      I do not equate the terms feminism and female imperative, and neither does Rollo. He focuses much more on carousel riding, cuckolding, going feral during ovulation, etc. He’s also convinced that women are scheming to make men unaware of their own SMV as they age (Rollo says a man’s SMV is highest in his late 30s and early 40s – that may appeal to you. :) ) I imagine that it is difficult for men to want 23 year old women throughout their lives, and to become invisible to them after a certain point.

  • Jackie

    ” I actually think it’s more destructive to for young women to approach their dating lives with the mindset that reaching their 30th birthday without a wedding ring on their finger would be some kind of disaster. Recipe for ending up with the wrong guy.”
    ===
    Agreed! The focus shouldn’t be on locking down a guy ASAP, it should be finding the *right* guy. One with whom they are ready to devote a lifetime.

    (Maybe it’s because my parents were both over 30 when they married that this makes sense to me. I wouldn’t be here otherwise! :) It was a conscious choice to find what they were looking for; not borne out of fear they needed to “lock something down.”)

    Also, Susan will always mention that you should be absolutely, positively head-over-heels when you walk down the aisle. That happens when it happens– you should definitely be looking for it! But it’s not something that can be put on a deadline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Agreed! The focus shouldn’t be on locking down a guy ASAP, it should be finding the *right* guy. One with whom they are ready to devote a lifetime.

      I did not mean to suggest otherwise. I do believe that women benefit from having an awareness and a mindset of future time orientation from the time they graduate from college.

  • Jackie

    Also that NY Mag pic of SJP — I don’t know if they Photo-shopped it or what– is plain mean. It makes NY Mag look small and petty.

    I don’t like her character, don’t like SATC and only appreciate her unique fashion sense… but making fun of someone’s appearance is a low blow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also that NY Mag pic of SJP — I don’t know if they Photo-shopped it or what– is plain mean. It makes NY Mag look small and petty.

      I don’t like her character, don’t like SATC and only appreciate her unique fashion sense… but making fun of someone’s appearance is a low blow.

      I didn’t even realize that was a joke! I took it at face value. It does drive home the point, though.

  • LJ

    Agreed, I’m not a fan of really any of the characters on SATC — and I might have found Carrie the most annoying — but I don’t see how any of them are an example of a “cautionary tale.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LJ

      Agreed, I’m not a fan of really any of the characters on SATC — and I might have found Carrie the most annoying — but I don’t see how any of them are an example of a “cautionary tale.”

      Simple. If you want to be them, emulate them. If you do not want to end up like them, be cautious – here is what they did wrong.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    There may not be a ‘feminine imperative”, but there has been a gentle subsidizing of female ‘amazingness’ by the US government, businesses, and the media. Any male who achieves an equal level of amazingness will have had to fight extremely hard against a not-overwhelming-but-very-steady current.

    And he will have no trouble marrying the shopgirl if she cleans up nicely and can hold her own with the flat-rear brigade in the UMC.

    Poor kids of mine, so unamazing, educated in second tier public universities and fighting for the leftovers. Someone should warn Ms Faw of the shitstorm brewing out here in the Panem provinces. Of course, she’s writing for [u]Forbes[/u], not [u]Mother Jones[/u]…

  • Escoffier

    PB, I don’t understand your point.

    You can’t conflate Susan and the sources she quotes. They don’t have the same agenda. Susan uses those sources to make her own points which are broadly not feminist, even if they are also not exactly pre-feminist.

    As I said in the other thread, Susan is seeking “synthesis” between the pre-SR “thesis” and the SR/feminist “antithesis.” She seems most concerned about preserving female gains in education but this post shows a great willingness to reconsider the long-term value of female gains in the workforce.

    So, it may not go as far as you or I want and her solution may not be practicable soceity-wide. But it is a hell of a lot better than what we have now and it is certainly practicable for as many individual women get the message and implement it in their lives.

  • Escoffier

    Yes, but …

    Let’s not treat the search for the “right guy” like the quest for the Holy Grail. We know where that leads. Realistically, it’s not going to take five years for most women unless she is extremely lazy, unlucky or picky.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “The prism of the sources is, as you say, generally feminist. ”

    It’s not that they are feminist (though they may be), it’s that they are totally fem centric, which sometimes is the same and sometimes is not. Every issue in society is viewed through the prism of how it impacts women, not how it impacts everyone.

    There aren’t enough successful men to marry? Oh my God, those poor fabulous, beautiful single women. No stopping to wonder what sort of society we have created where so many men can’t succeed to point of being marriageable. It’s only bemoaning the fact that we haven’t structured things so that men can best serve these women’s life plans.

    Finding their careers not fulfulling and burned out? Oh, my God, we got it wrong, we need to restructure things so that they can modify the career track to correct that. No thought of “Wow, how much must it have sucked to be a guy who had no choice but to go through that grind for 45 years no matter how he felt about it.” Also, no stopping to ponder whether society should be spending $200,000 to educate these women with medical degrees and PhDs only to have them want off the career track at 30-35. It doesn’t matter whether that’s a good idea, so long as their lives are more fulfilling.

    And all the articles bemoaning the end of men only get attention or generate concern when it is pointed out that this will impact women in a negative way. It’s never bad just because it’s bad for men – they don’t really count except to the extent that it impacts women (and, I suppose, children).

    That’s the feminine imperative. Even those who are not feminists in any true sense (and I would probably include Hymowitz in that) view it all through this prism. You might not because you have a son recently graduated, so it might impact him. Even churches and religious figures who don’t purport to advocate feminism at all view all these issues first through the prism of how they impact the well being of women. And it’s not just women that do it, men do it too (read anything from Bill Bennet).

    As to your point about the 23 year old women, etc., I think that’s a side issue, and these guys are mistaken to attribute the age gap shaming (to the extent it exists) to the feminine imperative. Older men poaching younger women benefits younger women as a whole (raises their market value) but hurts younger men as a whole as well as women the same age as the older men. It’s a wash in terms of benefit to the sexes. It’s just that 30-40 year old women control the media narrative much more than 23 year old women.

    I’m ok being invisible to 23 year old women – it happened about a year or two ago (for the most part). Less temptation to hurt people I care about and fuck up my life, if nothing else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I agree with everything you say about misandry in society. I attempt to highlight that in the post after the Hymowitz excerpt. I have also frequently accused feminism as being about female supremacy. In this way I am in agreement with the manosphere.

      My issue is with the idea as proposed by Rollo, which goes much deeper into a view of female sexuality as selfish, scheming, and feral, all at the expense of men.

      It’s not women who have aborted polygyny throughout history – it is men. If monogamy produces civilization and polygyny erodes it, Rollo sees Team Woman as the culprit. I don’t buy it.

  • Wants to know

    Are the men between ages 20 and 35 ready for this?

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier

    “You can’t conflate Susan and the sources she quotes. They don’t have the same agenda. Susan uses those sources to make her own points which are broadly not feminist, even if they are also not exactly pre-feminist.”

    I’m not conflating them at all. I’m simply saying that by constantly reading and quoting these sources, you’d think it might eventually jump out at her how much the narrative in the mainstream culture, including more mainstream media, is through the female perspective.

    This site SHOULD be somewhat fem centric in that it purports first to be a sight to give advice to young women (though other stuff gets discussed a lot). I don’t have a problem with that. I’m more commenting on how Susan can read all these various dominant media sources and then staunchly deny that they tend to view issues first through the lens of how they impact women, without much regard to how they impact men as a group.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m more commenting on how Susan can read all these various dominant media sources and then staunchly deny that they tend to view issues first through the lens of how they impact women, without much regard to how they impact men as a group.

      Oof. We are in 100% agreement. This is not the way Rollo has defined femcentric. No one is disputing the agenda of female supremacy and the tendency of the media and politicians to play into it. I consider it a serious problem.

      Let’s not use that word. Once again, I regret its introduction into the conversation by Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.

      If people want to explore “femcentrism” per Rollo, I’ve linked to the discussion. If people want to talk here about the greater impact of feminism on society and relationships, I’m all for it.

  • Jonny

    The perspective that I see is everything is framed as what women want and what men are expected to give up with this quote as an example “Still, I don’t think society is in good shape when we expect men to play second string, getting in the game only after women have opted out by choice.”

    Women are crowding out men in employment and in the upper management ranks when men are most youthful and productive. Right when women are ready to drop out at the edge of their fertility, men are behind and they have difficulty catching up.

    Sheryl Sandberg is a woman that has everything. She is the worst example for women because what she’s doing is clearly the exception to the rule. It isn’t the rule.

    Responsible men who can support their families is still the rule; however, it has slowly eroded. I’m sure it won’t be the rule anymore in general. In many communities, it isn’t the rule anymore. There has to be some pushback or else we can continue to see more aging spinster females whithering away.

  • BroHamlet

    @Passer_By

    “Well, then, let me step up to the plate for you. I don’t want to go all hard core manospherian here, but I find it interesting that Susan can write this post, and then wholly deny the existence of a feminine imperative in our current culture. I don’t mean so much what she’s written herself, so much as the tone of the sources and the prism through which they view things.”

    I find this interesting too, but I don’t care to bring it up most of the time because I’m not sure Susan really understands how far reaching it is- when you own the terms and even the morality of gender dialog, there is very little chance of an objective discussion. I have known that something was up since grade school, although I couldn’t put a name to it. And I suspect many guys of my generation have sensed what was going on in our formative years. I don’t really read the “sphere” but they are right about a lot of what can be called the “female imperative”. The interesting part is that while the “imperative” is about female needs at the expense of all others, in practice it is dragging women in conflicting directions, which brings us to Susan’s blog post…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      when you own the terms and even the morality of gender dialog, there is very little chance of an objective discussion.

      I have learned this the hard way. I prefer to avoid contentious debate between the genders here, as it is exhausting to moderate and generally leads nowhere good.

  • sqk

    I hate to be cruel. Millennial women have too many demands, but are getting fatter. Sorry, but workaholism does not lend itself to proper nutrition and staying in shape. Yes, there are a few freaks who will stay in shape despite long hours, but most of them are already taken! All the high fashion in the world cannot shroud adipose tissue. It remains unclear to me why a man should give his resources to someone who is in the early stages of letting themselves go.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    There are two reasons why Millennial women at the upper end of the age range are single and lonely:

    1. They want high achieving men, and there aren’t enough of them to go around.

    2. They are ambitious in their careers but lazy about their love lives.

    Uh, Susan -

    It just dawned on me that a lot of your advice seems to center on making the girls who pay attention to it smart enough to deprive a less-aware girl of similar value of a suitable partner.

    Pretty Machiavellian advice. I’m glad I never had to compete against one of your companies in the marketplace. It makes me wonder how much of this “grow the pie” rhetoric we hear at election time is precisely that – rhetoric.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      It just dawned on me that a lot of your advice seems to center on making the girls who pay attention to it smart enough to deprive a less-aware girl of similar value of a suitable partner.

      Pretty Machiavellian advice.

      Guilty as charged. Survival of the fittest. Actually, if we know that there are going to be involuntarily single women, wouldn’t you prefer that your daughter not be one of them? And wouldn’t you want her to increase her odds of success by being prepared and thoughtful?

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan and Passer_By

    And before Susan jumps on me for suggesting women are inherently selfish- I think the female imperative as described by Rollo et al is actually the manifestation of female instincts given too much power by the law and social norms. As we know, absolute power corrupts, so the worst of those instincts will be magnified, which doesn’t really speak to the morality of said instincts very much at all. The times I’ve read Rollo on this topic, it has the tone of a warning to me, not a cause to “take up arms”, because he’s not telling me anything I don’t know or haven’t seen.

  • Jonny

    The Forbes article has this strange quote “The only dateable men we encounter are either attached, gay, or otherwise involved in “it’s complicated” situations.”

    By definition, the men aren’t datable. Alternatively, the professional women are not datable.

    Women who focus on their careers and stylist clothing are unattractive.

  • Wants to know

    I can’t believe there is going to be an arguement about the feminine imperative and ignore that fact that things are changing for the better! It’s like some of you are mad because the change didn’t happen the way you thought it might with a western culture apocolypse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wants to know

      I can’t believe there is going to be an arguement about the feminine imperative and ignore that fact that things are changing for the better!

      Can you say a bit more about how you think things are changing for the better? Women in their 20s seem pretty miserable both in their work and personal lives.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “My issue is with the idea as proposed by Rollo, which goes much deeper into a view of female sexuality as selfish, scheming, and feral, all at the expense of men.”

    Maybe I don’t read Rollo as much as you do, but I don’t take the term “feminine imperative” to mean that. Those things you describe there are just selfish traits if left unchecked. We can find plenty for men too. I’m not saying he doesn’t say those things about women, just that I don’t think that that’s what is meant by the “feminine imperative.”

    The feminine imperative seems to be to be a societal phenomenon. You call it “misandry”, but I’m not sure that really fits, since it’s not really borne of a dislike or contempt for men, so much as just not really giving a shit about their personal well being or happiness to same extent we do for women. Consequently, every issue is viewed first from the angle of how women are impacted, rather than how men might be impacted (except insofar as the impact on men affects women).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Consequently, every issue is viewed first from the angle of how women are impacted, rather than how men might be impacted (except insofar as the impact on men affects women).

      I think the fact that the media and political leaders view all of these societal developments and changes through the lens of the Women’s Movement is unsurprising. It was a radical shift, to say the least, and its effects are reverberating strongly. Many of those consequences were unintended. That doesn’t make them less pernicious, but it seems reasonable to me that we might look at Millennials and ask why things are shaking out the way they are. All of the sources I used lay this at the feet of feminism. The whole “end of men” discussion also revolved around feminism, with feminists celebrating the decline of male well-being, and others expressing concern.

      Feminism has been a high speed train in the U.S. for 50 years. There’s some loud braking going on, and perhaps the movement is beginning to slow. IMO, the best way I can help make that happen is to make young women aware of these consequences and how they might be affected in the area most of them say they care about the most.

      It is in women’s best interests for men to thrive. That is what I need to sell.

  • Wants to know

    Sorry thats apocalypse.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “Let’s not use that word. Once again, I regret its introduction into the conversation by Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.”

    Okeedoke. I just didn’t want you be disappointed that nobody was criticizing anything in your post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Okeedoke. I just didn’t want you be disappointed that nobody was criticizing anything in your post.

      I would like to add “irreverent sense of humor” to the official list of female attraction triggers.

  • Escoffier

    Reminds me of the famous anti-NYT joke. Times headline the day after Armageddon: “World Ends; Women, Minorities Hardest Hit.”

  • Abbot

    “it’s not going to take five years for most women unless she is extremely lazy, unlucky or picky”

    But the mind-control self-serving rants and diatribes generated by desperate feminists and women’s studies indoctrination locks them into not making attempts. Marcotte even stated that women want hook up culture, that is, get your penis-need fulfilled and move on.

    “we haven’t structured things so that men can best serve these women’s life plans”

    Feminists do make that complaint but they don’t want that structure

    Like Soviet communism, feminism was an interesting experiment. Human nature eventually voted back in Capitalism. Female nature will eventually vote out feminism.

  • Abbot

    “It remains unclear to me why a man should give his resources to someone who is in the early stages of letting themselves go.”

    Throw in occasional bursts of feral sexual behavior and you got some real winners there….yes sir eeee.

  • Passer_By

    I accept that my understanding of the term “feminine imp_____” was perhaps not what the Evil One had in mind when he made it up. I like my definition better. I say we coopt it and make it mean that just to piss him off. Who is with me?!!!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I say we coopt it and make it mean that just to piss him off. Who is with me?!!!!

      Ha, he’s already predicted I will do just that. Apparently, I managed to take the sting out of “solipsism” and “hypergamy.” So funny that Rollo should give me a roadmap to getting his tidy whities in a twist.

  • Abbot

    “ignore that fact that things are changing for the better”

    Yes, actually it is. But that “better” is just not going to include adoring men.

  • Pixie

    @mule

    I don’t understand how this is particularly Machiavellian. How is it the fault of the self aware women that others are not similarly planning or paying attention? If this reality is that there are only a certain amount of men around that many of these people would qualify as “acceptable” then the reality is that (most likely) whoever puts the most effort in will come out with the “prize”.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    Great post Suzan

  • Abbot

    “whoever puts the most effort in will come out with the “prize”

    Of course. If a woman makes it a priority she can beat the competition

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.”
    ===
    You know, this is a sign of devotion and “true love” on the part of the cat. ;) The cat’s mouse signals an attempt to provide and care for its human. Just sayin’ . ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You know, this is a sign of devotion and “true love” on the part of the cat. The cat’s mouse signals an attempt to provide and care for its human. Just sayin’ .

      Your cat bringing the dead mouse into your bed must be outright supplication! Is it a beta cat?

  • http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7XzcGnUCI0&ei=gATCUKaBJ6a00AH OffTheCuff

    Susan: “Actually, if we know that there are going to be involuntarily single women, wouldn’t you prefer that your daughter not be one of them? And wouldn’t you want her to increase her odds of success by being prepared and thoughtful?

    So, I should keep my little girl out of out college, then? I kid.

    Susan: “Oof. We are in 100% agreement. This is not the way Rollo has defined femcentric. No one is disputing the agenda of female supremacy and the tendency of the media and politicians to play into it. I consider it a serious problem.”

    Like Passer_By says, that *was* my understanding of the term. Why don’t you come up with a term for what we agree on, that we can use, then?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why don’t you come up with a term for what we agree on, that we can use, then?

      I generally use feminism or female supremacy, but there’s a difference. I am happy to demonize a movement, even individual women within it. Rollo demonizes all women by subscribing to and peddling the feral female meme.

      Like I said, I googled the term and got a whole lot of Rollo and Dalrock. If none of the legitimate men’s rights groups don’t use the term, I don’t see why I should, even though I am concerned about the welfare of men.

  • http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7XzcGnUCI0&ei=gATCUKaBJ6a00AH OffTheCuff

    Jackie: “You know, this is a sign of devotion and “true love” on the part of the cat.”

    That reminds me: http://imagebin.org/238454

  • doomwolf

    As much as I hate to interrupt with a stupid question, what does UMC stand for? I still can’t figure out what it means.

    And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

  • JP

    “Also, no stopping to ponder whether society should be spending $200,000 to educate these women with medical degrees and PhDs only to have them want off the career track at 30-35. It doesn’t matter whether that’s a good idea, so long as their lives are more fulfilling.”

    There’s no reason to produce as many J.D.s as we have at $200,000 a pop.

    Well, except for the employment of law professors.

    The only place where there isn’t an overproduction is in medicine because it’s a tightly controlled guild.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    I guess I was thinking all along in terms of increasing the number of acceptable men without depriving women of the gains of the last fifty years. Growing the pie rather than accepting a zero-sum marketplace.

    For example, I have been telling my two older kids that there will probably be fewer and fewer career-path jobs available to them than to the boomers or to the Gen-X crowd, and they need to concentrate on creating multiple streams of revenue, which is not impossible to do on the Internet.

    The “jobby” type jobs are going to go to the SWPL kids, and there is going to be a knife-fight melee for them. Better to euchre your $700 a month textile import site on Etsy, together with your part time concert promoting gig, the compost pile, the Shih-Tzu breeding, the video game tournaments where you routinely win a couple of hundred dollars a month, and the crossing guard thing you do for the benefits. Part of this entails teaching my daughter not to despise boys who are doing this as slackers and layabouts, but as the mini-entrepreneurs they actually are.

    Kind of like Rollo spinning his girl friends’ plates.

    Not much prestige and it’s hard to convince a bank to extend you credit, but it’s better than long-term unemployment, might be better than heading into the knife-fight.

    Remember what Darwin said about the “fittest” organism not being the swiftest or the strongest, but the quickest to adapt to changing circumstances.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      I guess I was thinking all along in terms of increasing the number of acceptable men without depriving women of the gains of the last fifty years. Growing the pie rather than accepting a zero-sum marketplace.

      Well, this is my long-term goal, or hope. I’m open about stating I support gender equity, so I’m not looking to suggest that women forego education or careers if they want them. I think we need to take note that women are voicing pretty clearly that they don’t want to have high powered careers and children. Most choose children.

      Increasing the number of acceptable men is going to require celebrating maleness again, or at the very least not demonizing it. This has to start from the moment of birth, literally. One of my pet peeves is the way we shame boys for being restless or “having ants in their pants.” This is why I call feminism today a female supremacy movement – the academic interests of girls have been prioritized at the expense of males, and that has led to norms around learning and behavior that are typically female.

      I do think awareness of this is increasing, but it will take time to sort it out. It will not happen for the Millennials. Perhaps Gen Z, the next group, will have a more equitable society. In the meantime, female intrasexual competition is going to get very intense, and I believe that women can’t afford to ignore opportunities for relationships in their 20s and expect the right guy to show up when they feel like they’ve had about enough career development.

  • Pixie

    @Mule
    Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Paul Rivers

    Here’s what I’ve always found a bit inconsistent as a guy – if it was really all about the career, wouldn’t the career-focussed woman *want* to lock a guy down into a relationship early?

    I mean – guys needs are not horribly complicated. While many guys nowadays do want kids, they’re far less likely to be in the “we need to have kids now now now” camp of pressuring someone to have kids quickly.

    It’s always perplexed me a little bit…I would think the “career woman who wants kids someday” advice would actually to start dating someone quickly, and stick with them. Seems like it would be the best way to have the free time and energy to concentrate on school, career, etc…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Paul Rivers

      I would think the “career woman who wants kids someday” advice would actually to start dating someone quickly, and stick with them. Seems like it would be the best way to have the free time and energy to concentrate on school, career, etc…

      It sounded like the women had not even made time for dating in their 20s! They worked a ton of hours per week, and figured they could date once they’d achieved a certain level professional, I guess. I do know kids a year or two out of college who work six or seven 10-12 hour days every week. And some have to travel as well. I can imagine it’s hard to meet people and have time for a social life at all with those jobs.

  • Kris

    I’m an INTJ female Millennial. I felt a little bad about myself while reading this because I’m not terribly excited about staying home with kids in my 30s. One of the first lines in the article you linked stuck out:

    “If you are an INTJ or INTP you are most likely to not want kids. ”

    More than likely the truth.

    Question is, what do you recommend for us broken INTJ/INTP women? I’m actually too feminine to be gung-ho about my career (which is what most people would tell me to default to), but I don’t want to use my body to breed more life-forms (for a variety of moral and personal reasons).

    Are there men who also don’t want kids, but who want a marriage-type relationship just as much as they would if they wanted kids? Or am I more likely to be doomed to a life of dating narcissistic PUAs and immature men with Peter Pan syndrome? Because a lot of the men who don’t want kids seem to fall into one or both camps..

  • Ramble

    …it’s been clear for two decades that women were outperforming men in education that boys were being punished for being boys while girls were being praised for being girls…

    Some minor editing helps every great writer.

  • Joe

    @Kris

    I’m actually too feminine to be gung-ho about my career (which is what most people would tell me to default to), but I don’t want to use my body to breed more life-forms (for a variety of moral and personal reasons).

    I have to ask. In all seriousness, who sold you his bill of goods?

    To answer your question (again, in all seriousness), my advice is for you to change your outlook.

  • Ramble

    Women are performing at a higher level at work than men are right now.

    Are they?

    I am specifically curious about those fields that are results oriented and have objective measures for those results. (i.e. STEM, Finance, etc.)

  • LJ

    @ Kris: There are definitely guys who don’t want kids. I know a few married couples where they have decided they are definitely not having kids. It’s true that MOST guys who are looking to get married are also looking to have kids, but sites like Match or OkCupid you can state upfront that you’re not interested in children, and see out guys who feel the same way.

    And no, I don’t think that will limit you to PUAs/players … those types are really only 5-10% of the male population anyway.

  • Ramble

    Live below your means.

    And have a small, inexpensive wedding. This will help you save for the future.

  • Darsh

    Doomwolf:

    what does UMC stand for?

    ‘Upper Middle Class’ – The older Upper, Middle and Working classes didn’t have high enough granularity for today’s society.

    Kris:

    Question is, what do you recommend for us broken INTJ/INTP women? I’m actually too feminine to be gung-ho about my career (which is what most people would tell me to default to), but I don’t want to use my body to breed more life-forms (for a variety of moral and personal reasons).

    Are there men who also don’t want kids, but who want a marriage-type relationship just as much as they would if they wanted kids?

    What do you put in a ‘marriage-type relationship’? If you say you don’t want kids, and aren’t too interested in devoting yourself for your career either, it may seem like you just want to be a stay-at-home wife…

    For a man to accept that you would probably have to be a solid 10. It sounds rather implausible, especially considering that you will age eventually. Then again, just staying home without small kids got really boring, and was part of the reason feminism seemed important for a lot of women in the 60′s, so I have a feeling this isn’t what you’d want either?

    What exactly do you plan to spend your time and energy on if you get a stay-at-home marriage without kids?

  • Pixie

    There are exceptions to the rule…I’m an INTJ woman and I would love to have children some day. I also think it’d be nice to be able to stay home with them too. I think perhaps some INTJ women struggle with incorporating more feminine behaviors into their personality if they dont exist naturally because it isn’t always consistent with their other interests, as the other article suggests.

  • Ramble

    There aren’t enough successful men to marry? Oh my God, those poor fabulous, beautiful single women. No stopping to wonder what sort of society we have created where so many men can’t succeed to point of being marriageable. It’s only bemoaning the fact that we haven’t structured things so that men can best serve these women’s life plans.

    +1

  • Abbot

    “they reach for the power of stupid lines like: “what, you scurrred of a strong, in-duh-pedent grrrl???”

    Say yes, and they shut. right. up.

  • Ramble

    Oof. We are in 100% agreement. This is not the way Rollo has defined femcentric. No one is disputing the agenda of female supremacy and the tendency of the media and politicians to play into it. I consider it a serious problem.

    Let’s not use that word. Once again, I regret its introduction into the conversation by Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.

    If people want to explore “femcentrism” per Rollo, I’ve linked to the discussion. If people want to talk here about the greater impact of feminism on society and relationships, I’m all for it.

    One more example of where concrete definitions of these thrown-about terms/phrases can really move things along. Which basically means even more homework for Susan.

    You should see if you can get Bastiat on some sort of e-retainer. I bet he would be great at coming up with proper, and more nuanced, definitions to these terms and you could somehow throw him some page views.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    This whole post tiptoes dangerously close to “marry a rich guy” (or even a very well-off guy). The median personal income (according to the latest census) for those with a bachelor’s degree or higher is ~50k. For just a bachelor’s degree it’s ~44k. Now I don’t know about you, but I don’t know many places in this country where it’s possible to support a family of four with an income of 44k. To get to $100k or more (for the whole population), you’re looking at a hair over 6% of the population. Even 100k, in most large metro areas and their suburbs, isn’t anything to write home about while supporting two kids (or even one for that matter). Let’s be generous and say that $85k is ok for 1 kid. That still limits it to about 9.5% of the population. Let’s say that 2/3rds of that 85k+ population is made up of men, and men are 50% of the population. You’re then looking at only ~13% of the men in the country as “eligible marriage prospects” if the woman wants to stay at home.

    This smells to me of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation. Sure, you can have your fun in a career and compete with men for the first 10 years, but then when you’re ready to have kids those same men can foot the bill for you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      This smells to me of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation. Sure, you can have your fun in a career and compete with men for the first 10 years, but then when you’re ready to have kids those same men can foot the bill for you.

      That’s a fair criticism. In the Forbes survey a pretty big chunk of the 84% who aspired to stay home full time expressed resentment that they could not currently do it. I think everyone realizes it is a luxury.

      Clearly, the articles at Forbes are focusing on women with pretty high level professional jobs, even at entry. They described B-school, law school and med school grads. IOW, the focus here is on “career women” who step off when they have kids.

      I was one of those women, and as I described recently to Mr. Wavevector, my husband and I decided I would stay home because our son was miserable. I did work part-time and freelance some over the years, but my husband was essentially the only breadwinner. Of the women in my community, I’d say about half work in some capacity and half are SAHMs. I can only think of one or two that have truly high powered jobs, and their relationships with their kids are not close.

      I agree with you about the futility of competing with men and then quitting – and I don’t know what the answer is. Most people, including Sheryl Sandberg, want a lot more family-friendly perks at work, including flex time, part-time, family leave, etc. Obviously, someone would need to foot the bill for that.

  • Ramble

    @Mule

    It just dawned on me that a lot of your advice seems to center on making the girls who pay attention to it smart enough to deprive a less-aware girl of similar value of a suitable partner.

    Pretty Machiavellian advice.

    Guilty as charged. Survival of the fittest.

    This is not survival of the fittest. This is more, “let’s give lead weights to the slowest swimmers and speed boats to the fastest swimmers”.

    Which is pretty inline with what has been happening in society since the 1960s, like, “diversity for thee, but not for me”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      This is not survival of the fittest. This is more, “let’s give lead weights to the slowest swimmers and speed boats to the fastest swimmers”.

      No one is duping or handicapping those career focused women in any way. We see a whole lot of women saying, “Oops! Why haven’t I met someone?” I’m not responsible for them, nor is anyone else. Nor am I handpicking who gets to be smart about it. Any woman reading this advice has a leg up, and that’s her due because she got on the internet and did her research.

  • JP

    @Kris:

    “Are there men who also don’t want kids, but who want a marriage-type relationship just as much as they would if they wanted kids?”

    The marriage has to be *about* something other than the marriage itself. It has to serve some larger purpose.

    In most cases, this is children.

    Now, if you don’t want children, you will still need some joint purpose for the marraige, some joint life project.

  • Ramble

    UMC = Upper Middle Class
    LMC = Lower Middle Class
    SMV = Sexual Market Value
    MMV = Mating (marriage) Market Value

    There are a ton more.

  • http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7XzcGnUCI0&ei=gATCUKaBJ6a00AH OffTheCuff

    Kris: “Are there men who also don’t want kids, but who want a marriage-type relationship just as much as they would if they wanted kids?”

    Generally, no. Men who already have kids, and don’t want anymore, perhaps.

    Kris: “Or am I more likely to be doomed to a life of dating narcissistic PUAs and immature men with Peter Pan syndrome? Because a lot of the men who don’t want kids seem to fall into one or both camps.”

    Gee, I wonder why. A man who doesn’t want marriage has “Peter Pan syndrome”, but it’s perfectly OK for you not to want to “breed new lifeforms”. What is *your* syndrome called?

  • LJ

    @JP: There are tons of “joint purposes” to marriage apart from children — buying and making a home, taking care of each other in sickness and in health (and being able to have rights to do so i.e. POA), sharing assets during life and after death, etc…

    Most gay/lesbian couples don’t have or adopt children but many of them have fought hard for the right to marry.

  • JP

    @Joe:

    “I have to ask. In all seriousness, who sold you his bill of goods?

    To answer your question (again, in all seriousness), my advice is for you to change your outlook.”

    What particular bill of goods are you talking about here?

    I’m just looking for you to flesh it out, that is, looking for clarifaction, not argument.

  • JP

    Life isn’t supposed to be darwinian.

    It’s supposed to be cooperative.

  • Zach

    @OfftheCuff

    There’s a fairly sizable minority of married people who never have had kids. It’s not a particularly unusual phenomenon.

  • Ramble

    ‘Upper Middle Class’ – The older Upper, Middle and Working classes didn’t have high enough granularity for today’s society.

    I heard an interesting piece on NPR a few years back about the supposed differences between being Middle Class and Working Class.

    When the Americans surveyed asked if they were middle class, something like 46% (I dont remember the numbers, it could have been as high as 55%) considered themselves to be “Middle Class”. However, when asked if they were Working Class, something 80% of those surveyed called themselves Working Class, including many who were making much more money than what might be considered “Working Class”.

    The most common response they got from those wealthy Working Class Joe’s was, “I am routinely working 75 hour weeks and I am always on the road without many options for reducing the amount of work I have to put it. You can call me whatever you want, but you better believe that I consider myself to be Working Class”.

  • JP

    @Zach:

    “This smells to me of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation. Sure, you can have your fun in a career and compete with men for the first 10 years, but then when you’re ready to have kids those same men can foot the bill for you”

    Part of the problem is that the men’s careers aren’t developed because they were sidelined in favor of the women.

    This happened in the law firm I was at to an extent, because women partners had a tendency to leave because it was an unpleasant life. Corporations want their legal teams to be diverse.

  • JP

    I would love to be LUC or higher so that I could avoid working and could dedicate myself to more interesting pursuits.

    Work is quite overrated.

  • GudEnuf

    I think my little sister is the only one in our family who can consistently remember everyone’s age. It’s not a big deal, particularly if the daughter isn’t at school yet.

    Hell, I even misstated my own age one time.

  • Sassy6519

    If you are an INTJ or INTP you are most likely to not want kids.

    Add ENTPs onto that list too.

    @ Kris

    I also don’t want kids, so we seem to be in the same boat. I’ve decided that the best ways of finding a mate that is compatible with us, in this regard, would be the following:

    1. finding a man who doesn’t want to have children.

    2. finding a man who perhaps already has a child or two, but who does not want anymore children.

    I’ve been keeping the faith that things will work out for me, with regards to the issue of children. Know that you are not alone.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Adding local color:

    1. I witnessed my first bout of direct alpha girl-on-girl screaming-match-type aggression in my class this week. It was on the verge of turning physically violent (a bitch-slap was cocked at one point of the “discussion”).

    2. I was brought in to do some “career counseling” and can note that 2 undergrad females out of 10 said that they wanted to find their future husbands while in college because they hear from their older peers that all hell is breaking loose in the post-college mating scene. They wanted to jump the gun on all of that.

    It perhaps no coincidence that these were the two most physically attractive and popular students in the mix, so they may have particular incentives to try to lock something good down now and then coordinate life plans from there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      That field report is very interesting. I’d be really curious to know what “all hell breaking loose” means!

  • JP

    @BB:

    “2. I was brought in to do some “career counseling” and can note that 2 undergrad females out of 10 said that they wanted to find their future husbands while in college because they hear from their older peers that all hell is breaking loose in the post-college mating scene. They wanted to jump the gun on all of that.”

    Well, share what exactly you mean by “all hell is breaking loose”.

    That sounds like fun gossip to read here at HUS.

  • GudEnuf

    Why bother with education at all if you want to be a stay-at-home mom? It’s four five years and $80000 down the drain. If you drop out when you have your first kid, that gives you five to seven years to make that investment pay off.

    From a man’s perspective, why would I want to marry a woman saddled with student debt when she’s not going to have a job? And who likely has little domestic skills anyway? If you want a 1950′s marriage countryside women are a better deal.

  • yacv

    I am missing something in the post.
    One of the most important things in this discussion:
    “While looking for a mate, don’t forget that you have to bring something to the table. ‘Fabulousness’ (whatever that is), career/success and a tasteful apartment are NOT what the man you’re interested in is looking for in a wife, so they don’t count.”

    But, luckily, while this is missing in this post it is not missing from this site, so hopefully no harm done.

    Very interesting nonetheless.

    Re INTJ: in my – possibly irrelevant – experience, INTJs should be able to find mates in the STEM fields. We really appreciate women that are capable, and used to, rational thought.

    As anecdotal evidence: among my circles there are an overproportionate count of couples of (male) computer scientists and (female) psychologists.
    My theory is that a good computer scientist is used to communicating outside his field of expertise and psychologists are used to honest and efficient self reflection.
    Thus he is able to act according to “I don’t understand you but I am used to bridging those gaps.” while she can live the part “I know that in a partnership not everything is the other’s fault, I have my part in it and I am willing to work with you to to work it out.”

    That makes, in my book, a very good combination.

  • Ted D

    Susan – On the surface I have no complaints on this post. (Surprising right?) I’ll probably jump into the conversation with some later, but I just wanted to say:

    “My name is Ted D and I approve the message!”

    Now, about that new term to describe this phenomenon, I have to agree with others here, it should have a name, because it is at the heart of so much more than why woman can’t find “good” men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now, about that new term to describe this phenomenon, I have to agree with others here, it should have a name, because it is at the heart of so much more than why woman can’t find “good” men.

      Agreed. I’m going to punt and see if Bastiat Blogger has a suggestion. He really is the best on concepts around here.

  • JP

    The point of college isn’t necessarily to get a job. It also enables you to have a wider view of the world.

  • Joe

    JP, Kris used a lot of imagery when she wrote “I don’t want to use my body to breed more life-forms…” I don’t know if it’s an intended slur, but calling people with children “breeders” certainly was a slur in some circles. Breeding is what you do with animals. When used self-reverentially, it means oppression. Unless Kris is posting from certain mid-eastern countries, she’s not that oppressed.

    Next, there was the strong implication that childlessness was a moral stance. We had that debate earlier this week. I took the position that it is not, but this really isn’t the place to debate the moral implications of over-population vs. under-population (again). I just reacted reflexively to the assumption that childlessness == moral.

    These things, her state of oppression and the morality of not having children, are things she learned from someone, somewhere.

    Lastly came the plaintive cry, “[am I] doomed to a life of dating narcissistic PUAs and immature men with Peter Pan syndrome?” I hope all the men with whom she interacts aren’t PUAs and Peter Pans, but somebody told her that this is her world. It’s what she sees because she was taught to see that.

    I insist that none of it is true.

  • GudEnuf

    JP: “The point of college isn’t necessarily to get a job. It also enables you to have a wider view of the world.”

    Pretty sure nobody reads Chaucer without an exam to study for.

  • Escoffier

    I would not have married an uneducated woman, nor do I want to send my daughter out in the world without an education. However, niether am I going to say “Professional school and a prestige career or you are an embarassment to me, young lady!!”

  • JP

    “Pretty sure nobody reads Chaucer without an exam to study for.”

    That’s because it’s written in an English that’s annoying to read.

  • Jonny

    “2. finding a man who perhaps already has a child or two, but who does not want anymore children.”

    That’s not solving the problem. It is no different than getting a cat.

    You still have to take care of children and it is worse since they are not yours. You might grow attached to them, which is bad for you. Or you might not care, which is bad for them.

    It is hard to get married and not be caught up with everyone who wants to know why you’re not married. There is another solution. Marry a man whose kids are 18 and old. Marry a very old guy, 50 years and older. Or you can marry after you’re 40 years old.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    I couldn’t find the text of the question which was asked on the survey. Do you know if it’s posted anywhere?

    I also wonder if the desire for a stay-at-home wife is distributed evenly across the income distribution? I have a feeling (but no non-anecdotal data at hand to back it up) that many highly-educated men are competing for the “16%”. It might be an irony that the men who could best support a stay-at-home wife aren’t particularly interested in having one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @sonofagunforbeer

      I didn’t link to the survey, but I did link to the Larissa Faw article that discusses it. I’m pretty sure she links to it there.

  • VD

    I can’t believe there is going to be an arguement about the feminine imperative and ignore that fact that things are changing for the better! It’s like some of you are mad because the change didn’t happen the way you thought it might with a western culture apocolypse.

    They’re not. They are absolutely not. Read the new Z1 report out today. It is very bad. Summary: if total credit market debt outstanding had continued to grow at its 1947-2007 average of 2.36% per quarter, it would now be $77.8 trillion. It’s $55.3 trillion… and that is with the federal government more than doubling its debt in only four years by borrowing an additional $5.8 trillion. That is one hell of a demand gap. Households and state/local governments have turned negative again.

    If you didn’t understand that, here is the translation: the Federal Reserve tried to paper over the collapse in credit in the hopes they could prop the economy up until it revived on its own… and it didn’t work.

  • GudEnuf

    A degree doesn’t make you smarter. It just proves that you are smart. But I’ve known very smart, educated but undegreed women. They would make great wives as long as you’re Catholic.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    The male responses here from OTC, Passer_By, Zach, etc. should tell you something. Context is important, and these guys, like many others, understand the context they are living in – call it the “female imperative” or whatever else you want, but you have to see how easy it is for men to be considered a means to an end. Not to pick on Kris, but there are hints of it in what she said too- not interested in a high flying career, and she hasn’t mentioned what other pursuits she occupies herself with but wants a “marriage-type relationship”. Now I don’t think she means any harm in the least- but as a general suggestion, don’t let your blog just become about getting your “chair” before the music stops. Men (people) are not chairs, and I am not sure exactly what you can do to prevent men from being viewed primarily as status objects, but it seems to me you should caution your readership against even the faintest hint of that attitude, because aside from it not being very respectable, more and more men can see it pretty readily. Just don’t let your blog encourage subtle ruthlessness in that way is all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bro Hamlet

      as a general suggestion, don’t let your blog just become about getting your “chair” before the music stops. Men (people) are not chairs, and I am not sure exactly what you can do to prevent men from being viewed primarily as status objects, but it seems to me you should caution your readership against even the faintest hint of that attitude, because aside from it not being very respectable, more and more men can see it pretty readily. Just don’t let your blog encourage subtle ruthlessness in that way is all.

      That is valid and constructive criticism, thank you.

      I do want to clarify one thing. My post is not meant to suggest that women should stay at home full time. I am more interested in the following:

      1. Women should not focus on their careers to the exclusion of dating in their 20s, especially if they want children.

      2. Women should know that high-powered careers and kids are very difficult to combine. Rather than aim super high and then burn out by 30, women might be better off having more modest career goals, understanding that in the near future, they will ideally have a family.

      In retrospect, I wish I had done that. It was just about impossible for me to find part-time work as an MBA type. My resume said, “Will work 80 hours without complaint!” I think it may be a bit easier in law and medicine. Business is tough for moms.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jonny

    That’s not solving the problem. It is no different than getting a cat.

    You still have to take care of children and it is worse since they are not yours. You might grow attached to them, which is bad for you. Or you might not care, which is bad for them.

    It is hard to get married and not be caught up with everyone who wants to know why you’re not married. There is another solution. Marry a man whose kids are 18 and old. Marry a very old guy, 50 years and older. Or you can marry after you’re 40 years old.

    1. I like cats.

    2. Most men with children, or I assume most that do, have joint custody of them with the mothers. That means that the children will not be with us all the time. I’m okay with that.

    3. If I happen to become attached to a man’s child, I don’t really consider that a bad thing. I can invest the sliver of my nurturing instinct into the child/children. That could only be a good thing. Hopefully, the children aren’t demon spawn. If the children are difficult, I most likely wouldn’t want to date the father. Hopefully the children are well behaved.

    4. Preferably, I would like to pair up with a man who doesn’t already have children and doesn’t want any. That would be the ideal. Things don’t always turn out that way, however, so I wanted to offer Kris some other viable ideas.

  • VD

    Oh, and excellent post, Susan. Well done.

  • Tasmin

    “…and though 70% of them plan to marry and 74% want children.”
    +
    “1. They want high achieving men, and there aren’t enough of them to go around.”
    +
    “One third of today’s female college graduates will not marry a college educated male.” {–> “not marry”}
    =
    I’m investing in turkey basters.

    Can’t find the plug-n-play man? Who needs a man when all you can buy 250 million swimmers; an entire nation of tall, smart, educated swimmers all working for you! Bam!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      I’m investing in turkey basters.

      Good call. It will be interesting to see how much that increases. It’s quite expensive, but I imagine some of the high powered women will go for it. My son had a friend at college who was paid the big bucks for donating sperm – because he has red hair! I don’t know where the ginger shaming originated, but apparently it is a very popular choice at sperm banks.

  • JP

    @VD:

    “They’re not. They are absolutely not.”

    Can you clarify what you are saying here? I don’t want to respond until I understand your position.

  • JP

    “Women in their 20s seem pretty miserable both in their work and personal lives.”

    Isn’t this normal for people in general?

    I’ve been miserable for at least 15 years.

  • R Adams

    Dracula used to drink Virgin girls blood.

    In 2012, he died of hunger.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I say we coopt it and make it mean that just to piss him off. Who is with me?!!!!

    Heh, what’s really funny is that you think that Susan hasn’t already done this twice before.

  • JP

    ““Women in their 20s seem pretty miserable both in their work and personal lives.”

    Isn’t this just adulthood?

    Childhood = no responsibility = fun = joy

    Adulthood = responsibility = drudgery = boredom = pain

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The one thing that struck me about this post is that there was no mention of dating or marrying down. Instead, it was all about how to nab your spot in the musical chair circle before someone else gets there first. Talk about female intrasexual competition.

    I maintain that a sizable group of women will need to consider guys lower down on the marriage totem pole if they want to get married. SAHMdom is a nice dream, but it likely won’t be a reality for the women in this position, sadly enough.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I maintain that a sizable group of women will need to consider guys lower down on the marriage totem pole if they want to get married.

      The women in the article make it very clear they are not looking to marry down. One says outright that she would rather stay single. I don’t think you’ll see hypogamy happen, except in borderline cases where some other sort of status fills in. Women have been marrying men of equal status for some time, and I just don’t see them making that compromise. No value judgment – to each his own. I could be wrong.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    My issue is with the idea as proposed by Rollo, which goes much deeper into a view of female sexuality as selfish, scheming, and feral, all at the expense of men.

    You forgot to add, “I bet he hurts small animals too.”

  • Passer_By

    @rollo
    “Heh, what’s really funny is that you think that Susan hasn’t already done this twice before.”

    I disagree with Susan’s use of the term “hypergamy” as applied to the modern mating market, and I think I have made that clear. It seems designed (intentionally or not) to gloss over the real issue. I think Devlin’s original usage (as I understand it) is more instructive.

    I don’t really care about “solipsism”, and I’m not really sure how her use differs from others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Oh man, didn’t you see my post on the new and improved hypergamy? Even Escoffier was silenced!

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I must admit, I don’t envy stay-at-home mothers. I was going crazy being home all day. I also know too many stories of SAHMs having affairs or not being happy.

    My husband didn’t want a SAHM, so I went back to work with everyone’s blessings. We’re on the older side of Millenials.

  • JP

    “My husband didn’t want a SAHM, so I went back to work with everyone’s blessings. We’re on the older side of Millenials.”

    I assumed that SAHM was the metaphysical ideal, so I don’t have any problem with my wife being a SAHM.

    Lots of SAHMs here, even double-physician couples.

  • Abbot

    “It was a radical shift, to say the least, and its effects are reverberating strongly. Many of those consequences were unintended.”

    The consequences arose mainly because of the gross miscalculation or non-consideration of the long term male response. The sour results are manifest in the rash of whiney angry diatribes spewing from the halls of feminism over the past two years. Those expressions further alienate men and feminists are on a vicious cycle downward.

  • Kris

    Thanks to everyone who replied to my comment. I know none of you know me and it can be tempting to read into what little I’ve said, so I feel like I should clear a few things up.

    1. I’m not a misandrist and I don’t really consider myself a feminist like how most people use the term. I’m not looking for a man as a status symbol. If I cared about status symbols, I’d force myself to have kids. I’m a romantic person and I enjoy being with people that I love and trust.

    2. When I said I’m not gung-ho about my career, I didn’t mean that I just wanted to spend my time sitting around at home while a man foots the bill. I’m a curious person, and I want to see the world, change careers around, maybe start a farm. I’m in STEM now, but I’m not crazy about it. I could see myself taking other weird/interesting jobs. I don’t have an exact idea of what I want to spend my energy on, but I just want to be happy. I don’t think the typical American Dream is going to accomplish that.

    3. I understand that some may take offense at my use of the term “breed”, but to me, personally, that is what I’d be doing. As for my moral reasons, I wasn’t saying that reproducing is defacto immoral because of resources, overpopulation, etc (although those are very good reasons). I have other, more philosophical and personal reasons that are probably boring and rant-y. The point is, I don’t see myself as some higher being. I’m just trying to be me. Maybe one day I’ll adopt. Maybe.

    4. I never said I wanted marriage, but more of a “marriage-type relationship” (as in, a committed LTR that’s not of the serial monogamy type). I understand that the primary reason for marriage is children, thus I don’t see the legal paper as all that necessary. I basically just want a live-in life partner.

    5. I realize that I’m asking for a very particular type of man that is rarer than a diamond in the rough. If it matters, I’ve been polled as an objective 7.5/8. I’m pretty healthy, good genes, and I work out and stuff so I anticipate that I’ll degrade to a 6 in my 40s/50s until it won’t matter anymore.

  • VD

    Can you clarify what you are saying here? I don’t want to respond until I understand your position.

    There has been no genuine wealth creation in the USA since 1983. The Western world is in the early stages of a catastrophic financial meltdown due to debt-deflation. Most of what many consider to be “improvements” in society are either illusionary or short-term and unstable.

    When the full scale of the meltdown becomes apparent to everyone, this will have a significant consequences on the SMP and many of the intersexual issues discussed here.

  • LJ

    @ Kris #4 – This will probably sound condescending, but I think you will change your mind about marriage when you encounter all of the things that are much harder to legally do as an unmarried couple.

    #5 – I don’t really think the type of guy you’re looking for is that rare. But even if he were, does it matter? You only need one!

    Anyway, good luck. Don’t let the haters get to you. Love and long-term partnership are not limited to only those who want to reproduce.

  • Abbot

    “I call feminism today a female supremacy movement”

    The feminist fantasy is not having to romantically reckon with the same group of men who they are competing with

  • Iggles

    @ LJ:

    #5 – I don’t really think the type of guy you’re looking for is that rare.

    Kris – I’m also a late Millenial. From my vantage point, there seems to be a lot of guys in their 30s and 40s who have no interest in children and are ambivalent about marriage.

    I think LJ is right also in pointing out that you only need one. It may take time to find him, but finding the right match is difficult for nearly everyone (at times I’m envious of folks who found their spouses in HS or college).

    FWIW, those in the opposite camp – prospective breeders ;-) – have a hard time finding a guy their ago who’s ready to commit and start a family at the same time they are! The SMP is tough for us all.

  • Iggles

    Meant to say:
    have a hard time finding a guy their age*

    Typos! Ugh.

    Also, I implied it, but I want to specifically point out that it’s best for you to date older guys (at least 4+ years) instead of guys in their late 20s. The reason being that the older a guy is, the settled he’ll in his decision not to have kids. A guys who is 27 might change his opinion in a few years when most of his friends are married and have started having babies with their wives.

  • Jonny

    Kris: That’s a weird lifestyle expectation. #4 (long-term live in) will pretty much take care of the rest, but it is likely to leave you with serial monogamy anyways.

  • Ramble

    Susan, there is a reason why I asked this specific question:

    I am specifically curious about those fields that are results oriented and have objective measures for those results. (i.e. STEM, Finance, etc.)

    In her article, I think I got my confirmation:

    Here’s the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it’s known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don’t live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide.

    and

    The holdout cities — those where the earnings of single, college-educated young women still lag men’s — tended to be built around industries that are heavily male-dominated, such as software development or military-technology contracting. In other words, Silicon Valley could also be called Gender Gap Gully.

    This is simply the result of the Female-Centric Educational Industrial Complex that helps girls get their diplomas and then gives them jobs at the cost of men. But, when dealing with objectively measured positions, like STEM and Finance, they are not doing better, they are STILL doing worse.

    It is genuinely fucked.

  • Ramble

    No one is duping or handicapping those career focused women in any way. We see a whole lot of women saying, “Oops! Why haven’t I met someone?” I’m not responsible for them, nor is anyone else. Nor am I handpicking who gets to be smart about it. Any woman reading this advice has a leg up, and that’s her due because she got on the internet and did her research.

    Susan, I am not blaming you. That would be killing the messenger.

    What I am saying is that this newer information will be best used by those that can afford to. Your message will not become mainstream for a good long while, and, so, in the meantime, it will only serve those in the (intellectual) elite and the mouthbreathers, as it has been for 50 years now, will be left behind. They will continue to draw their education from the mainstream narrative, which is actively hurting them.

  • JP

    “What I am saying is that this newer information will be best used by those that can afford to. Your message will not become mainstream for a good long while, and, so, in the meantime, it will only serve those in the (intellectual) elite and the mouthbreathers, as it has been for 50 years now, will be left behind. They will continue to draw their education from the mainstream narrative, which is actively hurting them.”

    What does this have to do with anything?

    Information is always used by the people who can afford to use information.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, the near-fight between alpha females was really quite exciting (!). A group project went terribly awry on the eve of the final presentation to the class, leading to two one angry alpha girl publicly throwing another under the bus Imagine demure sorority types using language straight out of gangsta rap…

    I bring a tablet and Jambox to class and often play baroque music during the breaks, but in retrospect I wish I had had the presence of mind to spool up an appropriately high-energy track—perhaps “Lil Devil” by The Cult.

    Re: “all hell breaking loose”. I’m afraid that I did not get much detail beyond the interpretation that the desirable post-college men are becoming promiscuous flakes, including the former college nice guys who don the black hat, and that women are really stabbing each other in the back over them. A story was related about a female boss in Atlanta who successfully and shamelessly seduced the boyfriend of one of her employees.

    One of the girls wants to work in finance; I told her that not all guys in the field were players and she pointed at me and then laughed. I have been recommending your site; you’ll have better traction than I will, as I apparently am some kind of cartoon character now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      LOL at the alpha female confrontation. I pity anyone who has to work with them after graduation. Tough broads.

      the desirable post-college men are becoming promiscuous flakes, including the former college nice guys who don the black hat, and that women are really stabbing each other in the back over them.

      That’s depressing. The rise of the Pretend Asshole! But I’m not surprised by the female competition.

      I have been recommending your site; you’ll have better traction than I will, as I apparently am some kind of cartoon character now.

      Thank you that is very kind! One of the weirder things to happen in the last year was that my son’s Sociology professor recommended HUS to the class. Of course, he went up front afterwards and told her he was Young Squire HUS. Small world.

      For some reason, as I was driving around today doing seasonal errands, I thought of you and wondered why you don’t just do the George Clooney thing. Serial monogamy of about 2 years duration. You can pull it off – it could be perfect unless you want kids.

  • Erik L

    The article implies that all the author’s friends are gorgeous (sounds like she has some strict/shallow criteria for her friends) and dominating the world. I know a lot of high IQ types who went to top schools and got advanced degrees and I am struggling to think of any who could be said to be dominating anything. This woman’s experience seems too unusual to help us normals to draw any conclusions.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    @Susan

    “Like I said, I googled the term and got a whole lot of Rollo and Dalrock. If none of the legitimate men’s rights groups don’t use the term, I don’t see why I should, even though I am concerned about the welfare of men.”

    Give it time. (And some sledge hammer nudging from the guys who understand the concept.)

    And what do you consider to be legitimate men’s rights groups?

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    er, sorry about the typos in that… should have read “…leading to one angry alpha girl publicly throwing another under the bus. Imagine demure sorority types using language straight out of gangsta rap…”

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Good post.

    I think both girls and boys need to get a better understanding of what they ultimately want out of life, and understand that every choice involves tradeoffs and sacrifices.

  • JP

    “I think both girls and boys need to get a better understanding of what they ultimately want out of life, and understand that every choice involves tradeoffs and sacrifices.”

    They don’t teach that in college.

  • JP

    Law normally makes people want to gnaw off their own arms.

    I should have gone into finance.

    Now we’re past peak finance, so that’s going to decay.

  • doomwolf

    All this talk of “marrying down” – is this broadly defined as marrying:
    a) someone who straight up makes less money then you;
    b) someone who has less education than you (eg, high school or college certificate instead of a full BA), regardless of their income;
    c) someone who has less social standing then you (eg, someone who, say, works in the tar sands and so has a technical education and makes six figures but whom at the end of the day does some sort of job that involves a lot of manual labour and is therefore not considered ‘prestigious’ in modern society), or;
    d) some combination of above?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @doomwolf

      I think it’s a combination of all three but I’d say the key one is education. Money and social standing are malleable and with education comes the potential for those things.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “The women in the article make it very clear they are not looking to marry down. One says outright that she would rather stay single.”

    I know this is something you’ll disagree on, but I think as it becomes more socially acceptable, women who close and really like each other maybe very well bundle themselves together as a package deal to the few males who fit the bill. This will allow them to become “sister wives” with women they actually like and to get a much higher status male than they otherwise would. I just have to make sure my sons are in that category rather than the alternative. Their weight training and Game indoctrination has already begun. Now I just have to get them to cut back on the carbs in favor of actual vegetables and stuff. They’ll thank me later.

    P.S. So far they’ve refused to learn to play the guitar so they can be in a band, but I’m still working on it. Fit, game aware guys working in finance or running a tech startup while all the while rockin’ in a band should clean up, I figure. Added bonus will be that I’ll have a band to front as lead singer when they’re in college and I’m a creepy old guy.

    “Oh man, didn’t you see my post on the new and improved hypergamy? Even Escoffier was silenced!”

    I don’t recall it. Either way, you regularly lapse into saying something like “hypergamy is just the woman trying to get the highest value male she can for the genes and provisioning”, which doesn’t really cut it since men are also trying to get the hottest women they can.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Either way, you regularly lapse into saying something like “hypergamy is just the woman trying to get the highest value male she can for the genes and provisioning”, which doesn’t really cut it since men are also trying to get the hottest women they can.

      Yup, women are hypergamous re status and men are hypergamous re beauty. They are analogous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      . This will allow them to become “sister wives” with women they actually like and to get a much higher status male than they otherwise would.

      I honestly can’t tell if you’re joking. If not, what is the timetable for this burgeoning of the sister wives phenom?

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Wait, do you mean this post: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/11/14/whatguyswant/the-hypergamy-acceptance-movement/

    I voiced my objections to the usage in that comment thread.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “I honestly can’t tell if you’re joking. ”

    Well, pretty much, yeah. But don’t rule it out!

    “If not, what is the timetable for this burgeoning of the sister wives phenom?”

    Hopefully, in about 13-15 years when my boys are ready to take on the world with greek god bodies, guitar skills, tight game and high-powered careers. ;)

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I think it’s a combination of all three but I’d say the key one is education. Money and social standing are malleable and with education comes the potential for those things.”

    Education is just a piece of paper, though.

    All told, college and law school were the worst eight years of my life. Law school being slightly less horrible than college.

    What did I get out of them other than social and emotional dysfunction?

    Answer: Pieces of paper that showed I was employable. That’s it.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I honestly can’t tell if you’re joking. If not, what is the timetable for this burgeoning of the sister wives phenom?”

    Our LMC IT guy does this. Has a wife and a GF.

    He says it’s great and that it’s the wave of the future. One girl works, one girl provides child care.

  • Passer_By

    “What did I get out of them other than social and emotional dysfunction?
    Answer: Pieces of paper that showed I was employable. That’s it”

    And marriageable to college educated women who will bear your children while simultaneously supporting you while you play golf and tinker around the house.

  • JP

    “And marriageable to college educated women who will bear your children while simultaneously supporting you while you play golf and tinker around the house.”

    Yes.

    My pick up line was “I go to Duke Law School.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      My pick up line was “I go to Duke Law School.”

      Impressive. Did you run into Tucker Max?

  • doomwolf

    @Susan

    Though of course, education is only useful if you can turn it into something. In my previous post, the guy in option c) – would you classify that as a marriage up or down?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @doomwolf

      Though of course, education is only useful if you can turn it into something. In my previous post, the guy in option c) – would you classify that as a marriage up or down?

      I think it really depends. I think women value intelligence highly in a mate, so if a guy is smart and intellectually curious and makes a decent living I think he can do fine. If he’s not as bright, then not so much. Of course, this presumes that guys like this want smart women, which is often not the case.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The women in the article make it very clear they are not looking to marry down. One says outright that she would rather stay single. I don’t think you’ll see hypogamy happen, except in borderline cases where some other sort of status fills in.

    Then that’s too bad, because it means you will see less marriage, period. There are ways to “find the good” in Plumber Phil, but if no one is interested in even considering him, it will really be a matter of “who gets to marry the college grads” and “who gets to be alone.”

    Women have been marrying men of equal status for some time, and I just don’t see them making that compromise.

    It’s not a compromise they’ve really had to make, until now.

    No value judgment – to each his own. I could be wrong.

    I won’t say it was easy but I’ve made it work. To me, it’s a matter of being open to other options, and not being so concerned with status. IMO, anyone can keep an open mind if they really try, but YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I won’t say it was easy but I’ve made it work. To me, it’s a matter of being open to other options, and not being so concerned with status. IMO, anyone can keep an open mind if they really try, but YMMV.

      I think that a lot of potential happiness is to be found here. I hope women will be open to other options. I agree that status is often a hollow sort of victory. I honestly don’t know exactly how hypergamous the population is. I do believe that because women today have equal earning power, they may (should?) be able to emphasize status less. I just don’t have a good handle on the effect of nature vs. nurture here.

  • JP

    Graduating college was like being let out of prison.

    It was like a massive weight had been lifted off of me.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “Yup, women are hypergamous re status and men are hypergamous re beauty. They are analogous.”

    Not to belabor it, but you are describing attraction triggers, not hypergamy. If that was the real analogy and definition, then your chart at the top of that other post would not be accurate. In that case, all the males would only be attracted to the most beautiful female, just like all the females are attracted to the top male.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Not to belabor it, but you are describing attraction triggers, not hypergamy.

      Not sure what the difference is. Status is a female attraction trigger, often referred to as hypergamy.

  • Passer_By

    @olive
    “There are ways to “find the good” in Plumber Phil”

    You just have to overlook his plumber’s butt.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    You just have to overlook his plumber’s butt.

    Precisely! :-)

  • doomwolf

    @Olive/Passer_By

    “Managed expectations” would be a good philosophy to apply in that scenario I think

  • Lokland

    The entire argument about education and hypergamy centres around education remaining the main route to higher status.

    Most sane people use the ability to make money as a marker of status.
    A woman making 40k a year with her lib art degree who declines the college degree male with his own business (more money) is lower in status than him.

  • Highlander

    I think what you are going to find is that unmarried professional women can’t or won’t “Marry Down”, are going to start poaching other woman’s husbands in a big way.

    The situation should even get more interesting when those already married women dump their current husbands at 45, as close to 70% women do these days. They’ll be entering an already scarce market of “Good Men” and having to chose from some very pissed off men whose own wives have gone EPL after they discovered they didn’t like being SAHM’s. I intend to pull up an easy chair with a beer and some popcorn to watch all this play out.

  • Passer_By

    @highlander

    Maybe the women will fight with swords over the high status men and shout “There can be only one!” as they behead each other. That would be pretty cool to watch.

  • doomwolf

    @Passer_By

    SMP meets Gladiator, can’t be worse than half the stuff on television these days.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Hopefully, in about 13-15 years when my boys are ready to take on the world with greek god bodies, guitar skills, tight game and high-powered careers. ;)

    Do they/will they have handsome faces?

  • Passer_By

    @sassy
    “Do they/will they have handsome faces?”

    Sorry, you’re too old for them. And I’m afraid they would die of exhaustion with you, anyway.

    More seriously, though, they’ll be pretty good looking, but what they won’t be is tall. There must be some short genes on my wife’s side, because they won’t likely be even as tall as I am (which is only 5’11″ in socks, but I generally look like 6’1″ to most women because all the other guys lie about their heights by about 2 inches).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Are your sons by your first or second wife? Do they live with you?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Sorry, you’re too old for them. And I’m afraid they would die of exhaustion with you, anyway.

    More seriously, though, they’ll be pretty good looking, but what they won’t be is tall. There must be some short genes on my wife’s side, because they won’t likely be even as tall as I am (which is only 5’11″ in socks, but I generally look like 6’1″ to most women because all the other guys lie about their heights by about 2 inches).

    I’m not a “craddle robber”, so I’ll pass.

    I was curious about their facial attractiveness because I’ve noticed that a lot of young women place a great deal of importance on how good looking a man’s face is. If you are considering the potential overall attractiveness of your sons, you should probably also add that parameter into your assessments.

    Just a thought.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “If you are considering the potential overall attractiveness of your sons, you should probably also add that parameter into your assessments. ”

    Generally outside my control, other than straightening teeth. Can only focus on what can be controlled.

  • BroHamlet

    @Passer_By
    “Not to belabor it, but you are describing attraction triggers, not hypergamy.”

    Agree. There’s a reason the term begins with “hyper”, and it informs almost all interactions women have with men re: potential mating short or long term. You kind of have to wonder if, in order to satisfy the floor for their attraction, that women will start to find other things to be attracted to in the same way that they are attracted to conventional status markers like schools and careers if those become so scarce as not to be even realistically possible for most women. Maybe they’ll start choosing more guys who freelance across many smaller occupations, maybe they’ll start choosing guys with a greater degree of short term attraction triggers, or some combination of the above (I’d say the last may be likely), who knows.

  • JP

    My roommate almost inserted Mr. Max into a fireplace because Mr. Max needed to be so inserted.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Not sure what the difference is. Status is a female attraction trigger, often referred to as hypergamy.”

    Hypergamy has many women attracted to few men of higher status.
    Attraction is not possible to someone of lower status (or thats what y’all are quibbling about) .

    Men are not hypergamous in terms of beauty. We most definitely prefer it and definitely demand it for marriage however we can get it up for someone a couple points lower in SMV. Woman cannot ‘get it up’ so to speak for a man of lower status.

    Thats the difference between hypergamy and an attraction trigger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Thats the difference between hypergamy and an attraction trigger.

      IOW, women are picky. I get it.

  • Abbot

    The Forbes article is nowhere on the feminist radar….yet
    .

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “Are your sons by your first or second wife? Do they live with you?”

    Second wife. Yes, they do. But realize that I am just messing around here (well . . . mostly, anyway ).

    As to your question, attraction triggers are what you like more of rather than less. Hypergamy deals with how many of the opposite sex are likely to have sufficient amounts of those to get you going. The graph a the top of your prior post illustrates this. Attraction triggers alone can’t explain that graph.

    “IOW, women are picky. I get it.”

    Or, more accurately, generally much pickier than similarly situated men (i.e., men of equal SMV). Certainly that’s true as to sexual attraction, without a doubt. I go back and forth as to how true it is as to relationships in general, since men are pickier that way than as to sex, and women are MAYBE a bit less picky on that issue as they get older and conclude they have less choice (even though the relationship theoretically includes sex). But that’s cold comfort to the guy who gets into a relationship only to find that her sexual hypergamy prevents her from wanting sex with him very much. lol

    Either way, the hypergamy of pure sexual attraction is illustrated somewhat crudely in that chart at the top of your prior post.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Women in their 20s seem pretty miserable both in their work and personal lives.

    No, things aren’t so gloomy. Normally, it’s your detractors who predict doom and gloom. From 2010:
    http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/what-makes-millennials-happy-108019

    You might think the stress of living in a time of unpredictable change—with respect to gender roles and many other things—would yield an unhappy generation. Happily, the survey’s results indicate nothing so extreme. Thirty percent of the millennial women agreed “strongly” and another 44% “somewhat” that “I consider myself happy.” Few disagreed (3% strongly, 6% “somewhat”). And there was little gender disparity on this most basic of questions. Among the men, 27% agreed “strongly” and 47% “somewhat” that they consider themselves happy; 4% disagreed “strongly” and 6% “somewhat.” If this doesn’t quite amount to generational bliss, it at least characterizes the millennials as a cohort that’s largely coping with the wear and tear of coming of age in such an era.

    I wouldn’t conflate that with narcissism or excessive self-esteem. Also, Ms. Olive commented on “marrying down”. A better euphemism would be “lateral” marriage or “arbitrage” marriage. I think I linked to this stuff once before, also from 2010 and more recently:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/us/19marriage.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/opinion/sunday/marriage-suits-educated-women.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    This has actually been going on since 1970, so much so that it now represents 30% of married couples, probably Baby Boomers and Gen X’ers for the most part. Is this a “feminist” silver lining? No evidence thus far of increased divorce risk or lower marital satisfaction… :idea:

  • Johnycomelately

    Zach

    Brilliant analysis.

  • HanSolo

    paid the big bucks for donating sperm – because he has red hair! I don’t know where the ginger shaming originated, but apparently it is a very popular choice at sperm banks.

    Maybe I need to look into this! lol

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,
    OT, but I just watched The Grinch and thought of you. :-)

  • INTJ

    I’m an INTJ female Millennial. I felt a little bad about myself while reading this because I’m not terribly excited about staying home with kids in my 30s. One of the first lines in the article you linked stuck out:

    “If you are an INTJ or INTP you are most likely to not want kids. ”

    More than likely the truth.

    Well, that line is only true for females. ;)

    INTJ males are less likely to be misanthropes and tend to consider creating new human beings a good thing.

  • HanSolo

    Olive, you have good taste. What’s your favorite part? I love how the part, “Now that Grinch was so smart and so slick, he thought up a lie and he thought it up quick.” And he stuffed the tree up.

  • doomwolf

    That’s odd about someone making big money for sperm donations with red hair, as a few months ago I saw a bunch of news articles on one of the major fertility companies talking about how they wouldn’t take red heads anymore as no one wants red haired children (apparently Ireland is the exception though…go figure).

    @Susan #170

    That makes me a feel a lot better right now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s odd about someone making big money for sperm donations with red hair, as a few months ago I saw a bunch of news articles on one of the major fertility companies talking about how they wouldn’t take red heads anymore as no one wants red haired children (apparently Ireland is the exception though…go figure).

      The college is in Boston, with a large American-Irish population, so perhaps that explains it.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,

    “He puzzled and puzzled, ’til his puzzler was sore,
    Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn’t before,
    Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn’t come from a store,
    Maybe Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more.”

    My favorite part. ;-)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    JP: “Our LMC IT guy does this. Has a wife and a GF. He says it’s great and that it’s the wave of the future. One girl works, one girl provides child care.”

    It probably is – hypergamy requires polygyny. The we have of the former, the more we need the latter.

    Props to this guy, if he’s doing it openly, and can keep it going for any length of time. That’s tough to do!

    A friend of a friend does a similar thing, has rotation of women and one of them supports him, while he keeps all his income for himself. Sweet deal!

  • J

    Re INTJ/P and childlessness

    Hi Kris,

    I am an INTP. I found myself really absorbed by my own interests and didn’t really even think much about kids or marriage until after 30. I wasns’t actively hostile to the idea. I just assumed those things would happen in their own time if they were meant to. As it turned out, I married in my early 30s and had two sons whose births bracketed my 40th birthday. They are the most amazing thing that ever happened to me. I even walked out on an interesting and fulfilling career to be a SAHM. Most people who knew me were shocked by that decision. You just never know where your life will take you.

  • J

    “Pretty sure nobody reads Chaucer without an exam to study for.”

    I have. He’s pretty entertaining once you get used to the language. The Decameron is also fun.

  • J

    The women in the article make it very clear they are not looking to marry down. One says outright that she would rather stay single. I don’t think you’ll see hypogamy happen, except in borderline cases where some other sort of status fills

    Which is weird because in the traditionally female professions of teaching and nursing there’s generally a big range the occupations of husbands. Lots of them marry non-professional men, perhaps because teaching and nursing attract lower SES women. I suspect it’s because often these are the only professional women that lower SES women see when they are young.

  • Mike C

    Let’s not use that word. Once again, I regret its introduction into the conversation by Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.

    LOL….I haven’t even commented on this post until now, and you bring me up. You can’t help yourself :)

    I think it was like 2 or 3 posts ago that I used the term in response to someone already bringing it up.

    It is almost hilarious you mentioning this after just very recently you were kosher with Rollo’s comment after I responded with my joke “Who are you and what did you do with Susan Walsh”. The back and forth on stances is almost schizophrenic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      LOL….I haven’t even commented on this post until now, and you bring me up…I think it was like 2 or 3 posts ago that I used the term in response to someone already bringing it up.

      Your obtuseness amazes. It was yesterday on the Mars and Venus post:

      In all fairness, this wasn’t the case. What apparently caused all hell to break loose was my use of the term feminine imperative which appears to have been added to the ever expanding list of verboten concepts and expressions here

      Unfortunately for me, that got the conversation going on this thread. You drop these turds and then I have to respond. In future I’ll just delete and not deal with it.

      It is almost hilarious you mentioning this after just very recently you were kosher with Rollo’s comment after I responded with my joke “Who are you and what did you do with Susan Walsh”. The back and forth on stances is almost schizophrenic.

      I specifically endorsed a post of Rollo’s on desire. I stand by that. It’s possible that he may get something right once in a while, after all. My opinion of the man remains unchanged.

  • Emily

    >> “You forgot to add, “I bet he hurts small animals too.””

    You know, I might disagree with him on a lot of things, but for some reason I feel the need to white knight for Rollo right now. Rollo is pretty much never the one who drags Rollo into these discussions. It’s always other people. …in fact, this time I think it was Susan who first brought him up!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      Rollo is pretty much never the one who drags Rollo into these discussions. It’s always other people. …in fact, this time I think it was Susan who first brought him up!

      No it was Mike C! (Actually, he dropped a term invented and trademarked by Rollo,ugh.) This despite my asking him dozens of times not to do so. I don’t think he is capable of refraining. We need to break the chain!

      As for Rollo’s comment, I didn’t understand why he implied he had been attacked personally, when I was simply responding to his characterization of female sexuality. I guess it worked in your case. :-/

  • Emily

    >> “For example, I have been telling my two older kids that there will probably be fewer and fewer career-path jobs available to them than to the boomers or to the Gen-X crowd, and they need to concentrate on creating multiple streams of revenue, which is not impossible to do on the Internet.
    The “jobby” type jobs are going to go to the SWPL kids, and there is going to be a knife-fight melee for them. Better to euchre your $700 a month textile import site on Etsy, together with your part time concert promoting gig, the compost pile, the Shih-Tzu breeding, the video game tournaments where you routinely win a couple of hundred dollars a month, and the crossing guard thing you do for the benefits. ”

    Mules, this has actually given me quite a bit to think about. Right now I’m in the (completely unexpected!) position where I’m in an amazing LTR, but my “career” is a bit of a joke.

    My bf has a pretty decent STEM job that’s likely to get better, and I honestly do think that he’ll end up making enough to support a family. But at the same time, it seems like a lot to expect him to bear the entire financial burden.

    I think women who want a SAHM lifestyle will probably need to take on some of these little side-projects themselves in order to add to the family income.

  • lavazza1891

    “For one, it’s not as if we are holding out for Jake Gyllenhaal, but we do have certain non-negotiable expectations for potential mates that include college degrees and white-collar jobs. Life has always gone according to our plans, so why wouldn’t we land a man with these (reasonable) requirements?”

    She’s forgetting another factor that does not seem to be negotiable either:

    “84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to”

    A woman will have no problem at all finding a college degree white collar job mate if she
    1) continues to support herself through the relationship, and
    2) does not have children, or supports the children on her own.

    In other words women can easily have relationships, if they accept having to stay independent and self supporting. If they want something more than that, they have to accept that the men are calling the shots and that they might not be up to scratch in that fierce competition. But then there’s always the possibility of marrying the State instead.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    The MBTI dimension to the career/kids post is interesting. I’m INFJ. I know an INFJ with one kid (and done), an INTP without kids, an INTJ with two kids (and done), and an EN(?)J with two kids. All have full-time jobs.

    I wanted kids since I was a teenager, but I never really cared about the SAHM thing. Both my grandmother and my mother worked full time. My husband’s mother worked full time as well. We turned out fine. In my case, I probably would have turned out much worse if my mother didn’t work.

    I am not into careerism, but I really enjoy the social aspect of being around other working mothers and talking to them on a regular basis. It was nearly impossible to maintain that bond when I was on maternity leave. A few text messages, some Facebook posts, that was it. As soon as I went back to work, I was talking to my friends for over an hour every day.

    Also, several of my friends have husbands with lesser education than themselves. One has a PhD from Berkeley and is married to a man with an Associate’s.

  • chris

    “How can they advance in their careers when women who plan to step off in less than ten years are front and center until then, scooping up promotions?”

    If I recall correctly, one of the arguments put forward by women against the feminist movement’s encouragement of getting women into the workforce was that doing so would decrease the wages of their husbands and negatively affect the family income (as these women wanted to be stay at home mothers and have the husbands work) due to an increased labour supply.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      doing so would decrease the wages of their husbands and negatively affect the family income (as these women wanted to be stay at home mothers and have the husbands work) due to an increased labour supply.

      They called that right.

  • Abbot

    “getting women into the workforce was that doing so would decrease the wages of their husbands and negatively affect the family income”

    That is why it takes two incomes for many families today – to get back to the sum total of one income – and the feminist moaning for government supported child care.

  • VD

    If I recall correctly, one of the arguments put forward by women against the feminist movement’s encouragement of getting women into the workforce was that doing so would decrease the wages of their husbands and negatively affect the family income (as these women wanted to be stay at home mothers and have the husbands work) due to an increased labour supply.

    That’s true… and for about ten years, the feminists were able to deny it because the number of 55+ and 65+ men exiting the workforce compensated for the 20-40 year old women entering it. That ended in 1973 and real wages have been falling steadily ever since, a decline exacerbated by 40 million immigrants, mostly from Mexico.

    So, basically, young women have been working and giving up marriage and children so that old men could retire. We are going to be remembered as one of the dumbest, most suicidal and unnecessarily self-destructive societies in future world history.

  • Abbot

    In summary, jacking off to ideal virtual lovers is the same for women (emotional porn) and men (physical porn): raised expectations and disappointment with the real life alternatives.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    VD: Congrats on the new novel—just downloaded it from Amazon

  • Richard Aubrey

    Wrt the six-figured guy working in the tar sands:
    Do we think the prospective wife would look down on him, or would she think her friends would look down on him and thus her? Big diff.
    One commenter on Dirty Jobs said that it was a kind of humorous implication that without the guys doing these jobs, the folks with the clean jobs would be in a world of hurt.
    Suppose every time somebody sneered at the six-figured tar sands guy, somebody stole the gas out of the sneerer’s car and turned off his electricity for four hours. I’d vote for that.

  • Darsh

    Kris:

    a “marriage-type relationship” (as in, a committed LTR that’s not of the serial monogamy type).

    A marriage by any other name.

    2. When I said I’m not gung-ho about my career, I didn’t mean that I just wanted to spend my time sitting around at home while a man foots the bill. I’m a curious person, and I want to see the world, change careers around, maybe start a farm. I’m in STEM now, but I’m not crazy about it. I could see myself taking other weird/interesting jobs. I don’t have an exact idea of what I want to spend my energy on, but I just want to be happy. I don’t think the typical American Dream is going to accomplish that.

    As long as you are able to bring your share of the money/resources, I guess you should be able to find a man who don’t want kids to share your life with.

    But from your description it seems like you’re more interested in having fun than doing enough to support yourself. If my interpretation is correct, you may find that many men see you as a parasite…

  • VD

    Congrats on the new novel—just downloaded it from Amazon

    Thanks very much. I’ll be interested to see what you make of it.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “No it was Mike C! (Actually, he dropped a term invented and trademarked by Rollo,ugh.) ”

    **Passer_By hides face**

    Actually, it was me in this thread – I guess I hadn’t been paying attention enough to know that the expression was a four letter word on HUS. But I was using it in a different sense than you have come to interpret it. Looking at his site after, which I usually read only sporadically, I think he uses it in different ways, but my meaning seems one of them. And you don’t seem to disagree with the underlying observation, even if the term itself makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end. Wait, does that expression apply to women? Not sure.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      No worries, you were not aware.

      I don’t disagree with the underlying observation re the effect of feminism – I suspect there is about a 5-15% overlap. One which I am not interested in exploring.

  • JP

    OK, so I think I found some of what I was talking about regarding the “fun”/cocaine stage of the relationship.

    Anyhow, here is one article about it:

    “In the first chapter of my book, to make my argument that new love is like smoking crack cocaine, I looked up the specific effects of smoking crack cocaine on the website cocaine.org. I then substituted the phrase “falling in love” with “smoking crack cocaine” and noted how accurately this describes the new lover’s high:

    Falling in love…”leads to enhanced mood, heightened sexual interest, a feeling of increased self-confidence, greater conversational prowess and intensified consciousness…It offers the most wonderful state of consciousness, and the most intense sense of being alive [that] the user will ever enjoy.”

    In describing the life course of relationships, I also talked about the transition from the cocaine-rush phase of a relationship to the “testing phase.” In last week’s blog post, I pointed out that no romantic relationship can sustain the endless continuation of unfounded idealization that is the hallmark of the cocaine-rush phase. As such, I suggested setting realistic expectations in order to live into the testing phase without facing the troublesome thought, “I thought he/she was my soul mate, but after that fight, I guess I was wrong. I’d better keep looking because I haven’t found IT yet.”

    Typically, the law of diminishing returns applies in the realm of love relationships. The reason we never forget our first kiss is that this was the first time our partners stimulated a massive dose of cocaine-like chemicals that produce the lover’s high. Over time, a kiss generally has relatively diminished power to produce the same explosion of feeling. Likewise, over time, we don’t get quite the same zap to our brains when our partner tells us for the 500th time (should we be so lucky in another sense!), “I love you sweetheart.””

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-joint-adventures-well-educated-couples/201212/can-the-cocaine-rush-new-love-be-sustained-50

  • Damien Vulaume

    Is the coast clear outhere tonight, hopefully free of personal frustrations? Or is this non civil, female bashing time again?
    Anyway, a few comments about this post:
    First, that’s a refreshing view on how career oriented women should maybe think about prioritizing their choices. You can’t have it all, period.
    And if the man they’re living with has the same frame of mind as them (assuming they don’t strangle each other), then their kids will pay a dear price, and will go on to join the already long queue of emotionally dysfunctional humans the western assembly line seems to breed.
    Also, based on the excerpt from the article, those career girls seem to put themselves in the “top attractive” category. Did they take a look at themselves?

  • Damien Vulaume

    -”Falling in love…”leads to enhanced mood, heightened sexual interest, a feeling of increased self-confidence, greater conversational prowess and intensified consciousness…It offers the most wonderful state of consciousness, and the most intense sense of being alive [that] the user will ever enjoy.”

    Yes, yes, love in other words. That’s about it. Once you’ve experienced something like such beginnings in a relationship, the hardest part is for the said relationship to keep going on the same level……… I guess it never lasts to the same level of intensity and has to switch to something more “pragmatical” at some point. That’s to me is at the core of long term relationships.

  • pvw

    Re. the picture of SJP, it seems to me that must be the image that manosphere types have in mind when they use the phrase “1000 cock stare….”

  • Damien Vulaume

    @pwp: “the picture of SJP, it seems to me that must be the image that manosphere types have in mind when they use the phrase “1000 cock stare….”
    Elegant allegory meaning what, exactly?

  • INTJ

    Here’s the intjforum poll: http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=56305

    65% of INTJ male respondents wanted children, whereas only 38% of female respondents wanted them.

  • INTJ

    * 38% of female INTJs

  • Julianne

    Most intact religious Christian families with 3-8 children I’ve seen:

    1 – Father is STEM and the mother did STEM as well or Humanities (Philosophy/Religion/Arts).

    2 – Got together in their mid 20′s. Both chaste/virgins.

    3 – Don’t watch FOX News or read NRO or follow any of the Beck/Hannity/Palin/Limbaugh personnas.

    4 – Same racial group. Or almost the same. Most of the time.

    5 – Thinks that culture is the way to shape society but hardly talks about a “culture war” because they think that the war was lost a long time ago so start segregating (e.g. online college classes, homeschooling, wear distinctive clothing, select what media to consume) but also engage the opposition.

    6 – Anything from working class to well-off but not super-rich.

    7 – Anything else?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Most religious Christian families don’t watch Fox news? Who do they watch, Rachel Maddow?

  • Julianne

    About rich career women and men, aren’t they 1-5% of the entire population?

    That’s not to say that their concerns don’t matter. They do.

    But they are not most of the populace. The whole “get married after being financially stable” and “choices! travel during 20′s! enjoy life! my friends are gorgeous!” is nice and all but you material substance for that (e.g. best hotels in the world, best airplanes, great food, huge bank accounts, connections with the upper classes).

    I think mid 20′s is a better proposition for many people (maybe around 40-60% of the populace?).

    If people want to stay single, become the equivalent of a monk or a nun and give yourself for others as well as yourself (balance).

  • Senior Beta

    One of your best posts Susan. I wonder if anyone in the target audience will listen. The next generation may depend on it.

  • pvw

    @Damien Vulaume:

    @pwp: “the picture of SJP, it seems to me that must be the image that manosphere types have in mind when they use the phrase “1000 cock stare….”
    Elegant allegory meaning what, exactly?

    Me: It is an “elegant allegory” which fascinates me too!.

    The claim is that women who have had too much experience, too much hard living–men, endless rounds of late nights with booze and cigarettes, etc., develop a certain tired and jaded look (ridden hard and put away wet). This is in comparison to women who haven’t lived like that–women who haven’t lived hard, they had fewer partners, etc. The claim is that these women age better; they are more cheerful, optimistic, not jaded, especially because they are more likely to be happily married. All the better if they take care of themselves, ie., diet and exercise… Next to a Carrie of the same age (late 30s to 40 something), she will look a lot younger.

  • szopen

    Argh, I messed up the blockquotes.. Mrs Walsh, could you please delete my post at 51?

    So finally I find out what INTJ means :) :) And I am INTP, BTW, according to the test :)

    @Kris

    wasn’t saying that reproducing is defacto immoral because of resources, overpopulation, etc (although those are very good reasons)

    Reproducing is moral. Not reproducing is immoral, as by not reproducing you choose to live as a free-rider in a society. You may cover up for this for contributing to society in other way, but once enough people will choose to stop reproducing, the society will start to collapse.

    Over-reproducing may be immoral, OTOH, though I have not given much thought to that.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @szopen: “Reproducing is moral. Not reproducing is immoral, as by not reproducing you choose to live as a free-rider in a society.”

    I don’t see in the least what morality as to do with reproducing or not.
    Of course, not reproducing is not workable for the human race if practiced on a massive scale in the long run, but where does the morality/immorality debate fits in here?
    There are several people that deliberately choose not to reproduce for “bad” reasons, primarily for selfish ones, but there are also lots of others would don’t want children simply because they have a (maybe overly) pessimistic view of the world they live in and do not see its future as a positive environement for kids.
    And, the other way around: Just as there are many people who want to have kids for genuine, “generous reasons”, many others make babies for all the wrong reasons or out of sheer irresponsability.

  • szopen

    @Damien Vulaume

    I don’t see in the least what morality as to do with reproducing or not

    Because sooner or later you will stop to work and you will then rely on other people (for as much as 1/4 to 1/3 of your life), and value of your savings will depend from how many working people will be there. Raising the children requires a lot of work and finances. Now, for me it is immoral that someone decides that instead she/he will invest that time and money into his/her own career, and then he will happily get gains from enormous investments made by the other people.

  • szopen

    OTOH, maybe I was too string in judgment. Reproducing for selfish reasons is immoral. Desisting from reproducing may be moral, after all, I think.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @szopen.
    But that’s another story. There is an enourmous amount of people who work hard and who don’t have children.
    And by the way, I see more people who just don’t work because they have children.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @szopen #225:
    Then we find common ground here :-)

  • Abbot

    Are these cautionary tales getting through? Women plow right through that millennial gate and enter a state of delusion. Go on a site like OKcupid, punch in the age range 35 to 42 and many women state they want kids. Of course there are ways to acquire children other than conception but that is not what they mean.

  • Sassy6519

    @ szopen

    Because sooner or later you will stop to work and you will then rely on other people (for as much as 1/4 to 1/3 of your life), and value of your savings will depend from how many working people will be there. Raising the children requires a lot of work and finances. Now, for me it is immoral that someone decides that instead she/he will invest that time and money into his/her own career, and then he will happily get gains from enormous investments made by the other people.

    Haven’t people heard of 401ks, Roth IRA’s, and saving’s accounts?

    I don’t want children, but I’m smart enough to know not to plan on being supported by social security. If people handled their money better, they wouldn’t have to depend on other people for their financial well-being. I plan to be living off of a comfortable combination of my 401k, Roth IRA, and saving’s account when I get older. That way, I won’t be a burden on the system.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (228)

    Hmm, I can’t remember ever watching the news with my family, unless it was some major event and then we watched local coverage. My parents were of the opinion that tv rots your brain, so we missed out on all kinds of fun mindless stuff. ;)

    I think I know the type of Xtian family though, and they are almost always conservative Evangelical types. (The social justice/Sojourners type *would* pick RM over Fox any day of the week.)

    If they are the type you have mentioned before (tend to have outcomes like unplanned pregnancies and anal sex), they are a certain kind that I actually feel quite badly for. There is SO much unhealthy behavior that ostentatiously points to sex in that culture. The “purity ring” idea is vulgar, same with the purity pledges. The father-daughter purity stuff is even more grotesque in my opinion.

    This kind of stuff leads indirectly to the outcomes listed above, or else holier-than-thou condescension. They are constantly putting sex on the mind of the kids and conflating it with either evil– or their dad! :shock: How does that teach them a healthy view? And those poor gay kids born into families like this. :(

    To me, it’s so weird. I mean, the sin of neglecting the poor and being mean to the outcast gets way more ink in the Bible, yet somehow this type turns all their firepower on sex. If it somehow produced healthy results it would almost be worth it, but I haven’t seen the evidence for that yet.
    :( :evil:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      This kind of stuff leads indirectly to the outcomes listed above, or else holier-than-thou condescension. They are constantly putting sex on the mind of the kids and conflating it with either evil– or their dad! How does that teach them a healthy view? And those poor gay kids born into families like this.

      I agree. I confess I get very frustrated with the over the top liberalism in my own state, then I visit my friend in the south and can’t get a radio station that isn’t fire and brimstone. It’s all about sins of the flesh. It’s very disturbing, at least to my sensibilities.

  • JuTR

    Is it immoral to forgo having children in a society where they can be taken from you at any moment, and used to lever future earnings out of you and keep you firmly under the thumb of state and federal agencies?

  • JuTR

    Sassy, wise people (note, not smart) people know that the current system cannot be sustained, and know that they will need to be prepared.

    Roth IRAs are nice when you are young and don’t make much. Take advantage of socking away that $$ while your tax bracket is low. For those making cake, the 401k/IRA is the way to go, leveraging lower income at retirement to avoid the tax hit. Focus on companies that match contributions, it can really make a different at young ages to build your equity.

    All this won’t mean much if they keep printing dollars. The value of your savings is declining in relative value to the increasing pool of dollars. This should upset you, if you actually are a forward planner with expectations at retirement.

  • Abbot

    “Is it immoral to forgo having children in a society where they can be taken from you at any moment, and used to lever future earnings out of you and keep you firmly under the thumb of state and federal agencies?”

    If that is immoral, then it is immoral for the creators of those circumstances to not undo the damage they have wrought on themselves.
    .

  • Jackie

    Re: The “immorality” of forgoing children:

    If people don’t want to have kids, that’s all the justification they need in my book. There are enough unwanted children in the world, unfortunately, as it is. :(

  • JuTR

    Abbot, I’m of the opinion that the damage done to people cannot be reversed. It can only be stopped before it infects another generation.

  • JuTR

    Jackie, it’s a matter of choosing between two competing priorities. One, to procreate, which we all know is pretty powerful. The other is to live free, and not as a slave.

    If I told you I would give you a million bucks, but you would have to wear a slave collar that I could use to shock you, for the rest of your life?

    Would I be safe in telling people that you wouldn’t want a million bucks?

    It’s not simply a matter of not wanting to have kids. It’s disincenting people to have kids. Just like the propaganda in schools on overpopulation and destruction of the rainforests, species, and all the pablum the feed to children to make them misanthropes.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “Your cat bringing the dead mouse into your bed must be outright supplication! Is it a beta cat?”
    ===
    Ha ha ha! I know this was spoken in jest, but I was actually thinking about this yesterday! ;)

    I have two cats: Messed Up Alpha Kitty and Super-Supplicating Beta.

    MUA always gets the food first, starts fights, is needy as hell and has been VERY hard to train. Coincidentally, MUA was surrendered from a super-dysfunctional home (kept their hoard of pets in the garage in December, only food was the vermin they could catch :cry: ). MUA also had major anxiety and trust issues to overcome.

    SSB, on the other hand, is so devoted that he doesn’t even need the harness for walks and will follow at my side wherever I go. Once I accidentally left the door open and he followed me down the street for a mile and a half, before I noticed. :shock: He will let 4 year olds hold him and “reads” my moods and will cuddle next to me when I am stressed.

    The truth is often spoken in jest. :-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I grew up with two cats very much like you describe beta cat. They consistently demonstrated affection. As an adult I rescued two cats and they were never really able to interact with people very well. Then I moved on to dogs, who are reliably more like sweet kitties, even when they’re rescued. It’s a great thing to rescue an animal, but it can be a challenge as well.

  • Jackie

    JutR

    Since you put it like that, I think people need to weigh their decisions and, if they’re ready to risk, take their chances.

    For example, I would not wear the shock collar solely for a million dollars. But what if my dad needed a life-saving operation that would cost $1M, or my sister and brother were held hostage for a $1M ransom?

    Then I would wear the shock collar for the rest of my life, no complaints. (Okay, I would probably complain once they were okay, then seek intercession with the shock collar owner to see if we could strike a better deal. I can be persuasive, sometimes. ;) )

  • Jackie

    JutR

    I just mean, Life is not meant to be lived in fear.

    If you really want kids– or anything in life worth having– there comes a certain point where you are going to have to let go of guarantees and trust in God (the universe/Fate/whatever deity in which you believe).

  • szopen

    @sassy

    Haven’t people heard of 401ks, Roth IRA’s, and saving’s accounts?

    Sassy, you seem not to read me (since I can’t believe you missed the point).

    The value of your savings depend on whether there will be people providing services. Imagine that none has children, but everyone saves and by the end of life has a HUGE amount of $, or gold, or silver, or houses, anything.

    How much will those savings be worth? Nothing.

    I accept money because I expect I can buy something for those money in the future – goods or services. No children, no future workers -> no goods or services which could be bought.

    In other words, the value of your savings depends on other people having children.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    Haven’t people heard of 401ks, Roth IRA’s, and saving’s accounts?

    I don’t want children, but I’m smart enough to know not to plan on being supported by social security. If people handled their money better, they wouldn’t have to depend on other people for their financial well-being.

    More people should save, but most people won’t have nearly enough to cover them through retirement and end of life care.

    I hate to sound like a cynic, but throughout history having children has always been the best retirement plan! Money can be stolen and lost. Even if you saved enough, you’ll get by just fine as long as you’re healthy. But once your age advances to the point where your losing control of your body and mental facilities, that’s the tipping point.

    Do you trust the nurse that your estate has hired to take good care of you? Who’s around to check in your interests when you no longer can? Who will make sure the executor of your estate doesn’t line his or her pockets with your money? How can you be sure you’ll be treated with dignity and respect if the money you saved has run out? Any siblings you have may be dead or dying at this point. You would hope your nieces and nephews could fill to role, though in their eyes “grandma” will always come first, and that’s not you.

    I’m not trying to scare anyone who doesn’t want kids into having them. But my point is money have it’s limits. These are questions few people concern themselves with when they are young and healthy. If you have nephews or nieces it would be best to cultivate strong relationships with them now. They would be more inclined to look out for dear Aunt Jane or Uncle Josh once you become older, and they’re the ones who will be around…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      I hate to sound like a cynic, but throughout history having children has always been the best retirement plan!

      Many Boomers are about to find that out. I recently heard someone in his 50s say that his retirement plan is to get hit by a bus or move to a country with free health care. He was 100% serious.

  • Sassy6519

    @ szopen

    Sassy, you seem not to read me (since I can’t believe you missed the point).

    The value of your savings depend on whether there will be people providing services. Imagine that none has children, but everyone saves and by the end of life has a HUGE amount of $, or gold, or silver, or houses, anything.

    How much will those savings be worth? Nothing.

    I accept money because I expect I can buy something for those money in the future – goods or services. No children, no future workers -> no goods or services which could be bought.

    In other words, the value of your savings depends on other people having children.

    Mmmhmmmmmm……..

    So what do you suggest people who don’t want to have children do?

    Surely there are enough unwanted children in this world already. Why encourage people who genuinely do not want children to have children?

  • szopen

    @sassy

    So what do you suggest people who don’t want to have children do?

    1) Stop caring about what szopen’s of this world are telling them
    2) Do not claim moral superiority to “breeders”

    Of course, you can also defend yourself quite easily by using argument, that you may not have the children of your own, but at the same time you help raise the children directly or indirectly (e.g. by paying taxes which fund better healthcare and education for children)

  • szopen

    aaargh “szopens” not szopen’s :) I really would love an edit button here…

  • Sassy6519

    @ szopen

    1) Stop caring about what szopen’s of this world are telling them
    2) Do not claim moral superiority to “breeders”

    Of course, you can also defend yourself quite easily by using argument, that you may not have the children of your own, but at the same time you help raise the children directly or indirectly (e.g. by paying taxes which fund better healthcare and education for children)

    See, that’s the thing.

    I think it was only Kris who claimed any sort of morality in the children/no children debate. I didn’t.

    I don’t claim any moral superiority over supposed “breeders”. I have no problem with people who do want to have children. It just isn’t for me, however.

    I’ve noticed that people who do want children seem to take offense whenever anyone meerly claims to not want children. They take it personally, and I don’t understand why.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve noticed that people who do want children seem to take offense whenever anyone meerly claims to not want children. They take it personally, and I don’t understand why.

      This article by Ross Douthat where he called childlessness decadence has caused quite a stir:

      “The retreat from child rearing is, at some level, a symptom of late-modern exhaustion — a decadence that first arose in the West but now haunts rich societies around the globe. It’s a spirit that privileges the present over the future, chooses stagnation over innovation, prefers what already exists over what might be. It embraces the comforts and pleasures of modernity, while shrugging off the basic sacrifices that built our civilization in the first place.

      Such decadence need not be permanent, but neither can it be undone by political willpower alone. It can only be reversed by the slow accumulation of individual choices, which is how all social and cultural recoveries are ultimately made.”

      More Babies, Please

      It is the case that the low birthrate in Italy is largely driven by consumerism and a desire for nice cars, expensive clothing, etc.

  • Jackie

    @Iggles

    “I hate to sound like a cynic, but throughout history having children has always been the best retirement plan!

    Do you trust the nurse that your estate has hired to take good care of you? Who’s around to check in your interests when you no longer can? Who will make sure the executor of your estate doesn’t line his or her pockets with your money? How can you be sure you’ll be treated with dignity and respect if the money you saved has run out?”
    ====
    So the people in nursing homes who are neglected or ignored– they’re all childless? None of them have kids?

    The reason — the only reason in my book– to have children is because you want them. To love them and to devote yourself– your time, your money, and a lot of it– to them.

    Kids aren’t a back-up retirement plan and they’re not to be used as an economic resource. I will *gladly* take care of my dad until the day he dies, *because* he has never viewed me in such a utilitarian way. I know my parents wanted kids as kids, not as some fungible labor resource.

    (Iggles, I apologize if this comes off as combative. It’s only because I’ve known people who had kids to use them for stuff that I feel so strongly about this.)

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Abbot,
    In summary, jacking off to ideal virtual lovers is the same for women (emotional porn) and men (physical porn): raised expectations and disappointment with the real life alternatives.

    Actually, I wouldn’t say that porn for women is mostly emotional. Some of the fanfiction I’ve read lol…..those sex scenes were pretty hot :P

    Anyway, I think another cause for raised expectations and disappointment are fangirling for actors and other entertainers – which most likely comes at no surprise. Go on tumblr and see how many girls and women say that their expectations for men are so high thanks to being fans of Chris Evans, Tom Hiddleston, Tom Hardy, etc. Guys in real life don’t do anything for them.

  • Jackie

    @Sassy

    “I’ve noticed that people who do want children seem to take offense whenever anyone meerly claims to not want children. They take it personally, and I don’t understand why.”
    ===
    Sassy, I think anyone who deviates from the traditional script (ie date, live together usually, marry, have kids) will get throwback.

    Because by going outside the script, you have raised the possibility of alternatives; you have suggested that the traditional script is not the only one.

    Some people will feel threatened by it because choosing the alternative means that it is a conscious choice. (Obviously, this doesn’t mean that people who follow the traditional script are not making conscious decisions. That would not be true.)

    Many people are not conscious of their choices and having this pointed out, albeit indirectly, can be upsetting and even threatening to them. When that happens, they are going to strike back.

    (NB: This reminds me of when of several times when I was not conscious about choices and would ask long-married couples why they didn’t have children. UGH!!! :oops:

    They must have been SO annoyed with getting that question– and with good reason.)

  • Jackie

    @Sassy

    Another explanation may be solipsism (YEAH I SAID IT).

    This is hard for a friend of mine right now: She does not want kids and has been married since college. Her sister just had a baby and now that that my friend needs to have kids ASAP. :shock:

  • INTJ

    @ szopen

    So finally I find out what INTJ means. And I am INTP, BTW, according to the test.

    Cool! The tests aren’t always accurate, but your posts are very INTP-like, so that’s probably a correct categorization for you.

  • Abbot

    “Guys in real life don’t do anything for them.”

    Its a pattern. Women are just more gullible. Those magazine publishers make millions based on that. So after a few years, a man sitting across from her on a date is looking at an emotionally corrupted, probably promiscuous and feminist marinated prospect. So who is really avoiding whom?

    .

  • Jackie

    This is the last thing about the children/child-free debate:

    Referring to parents as “breeders” is dehumanizing and plain wrong. I’m not sure who introduced it into the conversation, but they should stop talking about parents like that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Referring to parents as “breeders” is dehumanizing and plain wrong. I’m not sure who introduced it into the conversation, but they should stop talking about parents like that.

      I believe the term originated in the gay male community. I recall being referred to this way even as a single woman by gay men. Ironically, in the time since they have fought hard for the right to adopt and of course some use surrogates to have children.

  • Iggles

    @ Jackie:

    (Iggles, I apologize if this comes off as combative. It’s only because I’ve known people who had kids to use them for stuff that I feel so strongly about this.)

    No worries. However, you seemed to have skipped over the entire last paragraph of my post:

    I’m not trying to scare anyone who doesn’t want kids into having them. But my point is money have it’s limits. These are questions few people concern themselves with when they are young and healthy. If you have nephews or nieces it would be best to cultivate strong relationships with them now. They would be more inclined to look out for dear Aunt Jane or Uncle Josh once you become older, they’re the ones who will be around…

    My whole point is, money alone should not be the only consideration when preparing for old age and end of life care. Over retirement you will go from good health to poor health, and indeed reach the point where someone else will need to make decisions for you.

    Historically, children have fulfilled the role of take care of their parents. So, if you do not have kids – or are estranged from them – have other people you can trust that will be around. Whether that nieces, nephews, or younger folks you once mentored, etc.

  • INTJ

    I’ve noticed that people who do want children seem to take offense whenever anyone meerly claims to not want children. They take it personally, and I don’t understand why.

    That’s because those who claim not to want children usually judge those who do (though you’re obviously an exception).

    A personal anecdote: the science honors program at UT Austin has weekly lectures by various local and visiting faculty that members of the seminar can attend. One of the talks was by a computer science professor who advocated government licensing and regulation of people having children, with limits on total number of children people can have, and only allowing people at 25% above the poverty line to have children. What amazed and shocked me was the reaction to this talk by the students, including one of my close friends. They were quite receptive to the talk and tended to think positively of it. I of course – likely due to my Indian heritage – found this talk deeply offensive. I left the honors program the next semester.

  • Just1Z

    @Sassy
    the link below predates quantitive easing (a great way to produce inflation, sooner or later).

    the only guaranteed way to get out of the levels of debt that the western world has is to inflate it away (ok, you could just flat-out default as Iceland did).

    any savings that ‘you’ have are vulnerable to inflation, but the government knows that inflation is a way of escaping the debt bubble (they just can’t be too blatant about doing it to pensioners, savers, creditors). Creditors? you ask? China in ‘your ‘case – their hard earned money that they lent to you is reduced in value by inflation – how would you like that?

    money tied up in plans tends to be hard to get at when the government wants it left exactly where it is. for ‘borrowing’, ‘taxing’ or just ‘taking’. don’t assume that your savings will be there, or be worth what you paid in when you invested it – those funds are a hostage to fortune.

    I agree with Jackie that having kids as an investment sucks as well (for the same reasons), so don’t really see how to escape teh future, best of luck.

    I’m on the same retirement plan as the Captain, the one plan that you can count on.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/savings/2791955/How-to-protect-your-savings-from-inflation.html

    Inflation is a silent thief, quietly reducing the value of your savings while no one is looking.

    Even with relatively low inflation, the buying power of your cash savings is significantly reduced over 10 or more years.

    With inflation running at 4.3 per cent your money is effectively halved in just 17 years.

    Even if inflation falls to 3 per cent, £100,000 in the bank will have lost a quarter of its value a decade later.

  • Iggles

    Oh great… A new troll :roll:

  • Just1Z

    @Iggles
    “Historically, children have fulfilled the role of take care of their parents. So, if you do not have kids – or are estranged from them – have other people you can trust that will be around.”

    this role historically fell to the women (or rather married women, ones that did not have to work to support themselves). single working women are going to be hard put to care for parents, or afford someone else to do it.

    is ‘our’ current culture really going to deliver on this? I don’t think so.

    maybe married couples with 4+ kids might be able to spread the financial / personal duties burden, but how many of those exist any more?

  • INTJ

    @ Racist

    I’m confused. Why do you consider Katy Perry, Sandra Fluke, and Karen Owen to be evangelicals?

  • Purple Tortoise

    Susan@228

    “Most religious Christian families don’t watch Fox news? Who do they watch, Rachel Maddow?”

    We fit into almost everything on Julianne@217′s list, and we don’t watch TV at all. I think this is the case for most LRCFGTOW (large religious Christian families going their own way).

  • Jackie

    @Iggles (253)

    That is a really good point, Iggles. Thank you for pointing that out to me. :)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    There’s a lot that can go wrong. I’ve been plowing tons of cash into a 401k for close to 20 years, but I don’t have enough yet to sustain many years of retirement. Making people their own investment advisers is tough. And I am wayyyy more frugal than most (family of 5 on one income). What happens if you get sick suddenly in a down year?

    Thats said, I don’t blame anyone for not having kids. I could probably sock away a ton of cash, since 99% of what I earn goes to the family, not me. In fact, I could easily be retired now if I was kid-free. A few years working overseas deployments, socking away per-diem tax free, and I’d own a mountain house in New Hampshire, skiing the rest of my life away, while I play gigs and work a low-stress, part-time job for beer money.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Skilled human attention is the only truly limited resource. Everything else has substitutes.

    Automation only postpones the need for human attention. Eventually the machines have to call for assistance.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    INTJ…”One of the talks was by a computer science professor who advocated government licensing and regulation of people having children, with limits on total number of children people can have, and only allowing people at 25% above the poverty line to have children. What amazed and shocked me was the reaction to this talk by the students, including one of my close friends. They were quite receptive to the talk and tended to think positively of it. I of course – likely due to my Indian heritage – found this talk deeply offensive. I left the honors program the next semester.”

    I don’t think it’s only people of Indian heritage who would have found this offensive, and I would wonder about those students who responded to it positively. Regardless of anyone’s personal feelings about whether THEY want to have children or not, the professor’s proposal obviously represents totalitarian thinking that is wholly out of place in American society…but, unfortunately, this kind of thinking is all too common among academics.

    I hope that when you left the honors program, you made it clear why you were doing so.

  • Jackie

    @Race Realist

    Hi RR,

    “Jackie at 230 seems to be throwing out the hypocrisy card.”
    Yes, I am. I observe hypocrisy. What part specifically do you disagree with?

    “And talking about *gasp* poverty. What a good hearted bleeding liberal little Christian who sees the real issues. Not.”
    Jesus spoke more about the poor than any other issue in the Bible. Why do you suppose He did that, if it was not “the real issue”?

    “She probably thinks that Katy Perry or Karen Owen or Sandra Fluke or Bristol Palin are those *gasp* dreaded evangeeeelical Christian cooooooonservativeeeee types!?!”

    Actually, I never considered them. You are speaking of celebrities; I was thinking more of people like ADBG’s girlfriend’s family. But since you brought it up:
    Katy Perry: Daughter of evangelical preachers (both husband and wife)
    Karen Owen: Baptist Pastor’s daughter
    Bristol Palin: Accepts money from Conservative Christian-based Abstinence groups

    “Except they’re not truly conservative. Yes. Evangelicals are not considered genuinly conservative by various people on the far right. Amazing isn’t it?”
    I didn’t know this, RR. Can you provide a source?
    ===
    “I’m sorry but I just had to write that. I’m sick and tired of people like Jackie. They are so liberal that they think that the above mentioned are conservative.”
    Where did I say this? How do you know I think this?
    ===
    “And Jackie mentiones anal “sex” (what the heck?) and “unplanned” pregnancies. She probably thinks that porn is conservative (what on earth?).”
    ===
    I think Susan had brought up statistics showing that evangelical Christians have a higher rate of this.
    Wait, I think porn is conservative? What? From where did you get that idea?

    “Those things (anal “sex”, etc) are more to happen for Hispanics and Black over White ones more. But hey… that’s racist (e.g. Mississippi has 37% black population).”
    ===
    :shock:
    Where are you getting your statistics and information?
    ===
    “It’s not my fault that NorthEastern states are whiter and we have rich SWPL areas in the West Coast which are also segregated and full of white liberals with a smattering fo Asians.”
    ===
    I’ve been played by a troll. :( Plain Jane, is that you? :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I was making merry yesterday, I’m afraid, and therefore did not see Race Realist’s comment until this morning. I have deleted it, as I found it offensive for its personal attacks on Jackie.

      I’ll let the various responses stand, though.

      Def not Plain Jane, BTW.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I’m not offended by the “breeder” comments. Being a parent is hard. It’s not for everyone. There are people out there who choose not do it, and I don’t think that’s bad. I have nothing against them.

    For the list above, we fit some but not all:

    1. He is STEM in math/coding/software with MS, I’m in tech/coding/Web field with BA. We’re both nerds.

    2. Met and married in our mid-20s; not virgin or religious, but spiritual.

    3. Don’t watch much TV at all, tend toward Internet and shutting out mainstream stuff including reality TV and popular shows.

    4. Not homeschooling, but likely charter schools. He does do lots of gardening and has a collection of guns, but those are hobbies, not political statements.

    5. He’s white, I’m Asian.

    6. Not rich, just middle class and comfortable.

    7. Retirement? We plan on working till we drop dead. Not counting on retirement funds at any rate. Bought some real gold and silver as hedges against inflation, not the virtual stuff.

  • JP

    @David Foster:

    “Regardless of anyone’s personal feelings about whether THEY want to have children or not, the professor’s proposal obviously represents totalitarian thinking that is wholly out of place in American society…but, unfortunately, this kind of thinking is all too common among academics.”

    You really, really have to stop some people from having children.

    There’s about 5% of the population that must be stopped from having children.

    10 year olds raping 3 year olds, mothers beating their children to the point where there are massive open wounds. Incest. Rape.

    And that’s just cases off the top of my head.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    JP…the profesor clearly wasn’t talking about those extreme cases.

    “limits on total number of children people can have, and only allowing people at 25% above the poverty line to have children”

    Rape, incest, and child-beating are already illegal.

  • Just1Z

    “I’ve been played by a troll. Plain Jane, is that you? ”

    Strange as it may seem, I’m going to step in and defend Plain Jane.

    She does bizarre (very well), but that isn’t her. PJ knows you better that that.

    (Peej, you owe me)

  • Just1Z

    The easiest way to reduce the number of poor people having kids is to stop subsidising them. stop giving them free housing.

    Simples, as the local meerkats say over here.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Jackie…you are correct, of course, that there are some (many?) Christians who are smug in their belief in their own holiness, and hypocritical in their behavior. I’d argue that there are at least an equal number (more, in my neck of the woods) who are nonreligious but are equally smug about their environmentalism and their “progressive” political beliefs.

    Consider Al Gore’s endless blathering about “global warming” (this, from a man who wouldn’t know a chemical formula or a differential equation if he tripped over it) compared with his own energy consumption and “footprint” of CO2 and various actual pollutants.

    Also, many of these secular people (and I myself am not religious) talk endlessly about how *smart* they are…indeed, there was a proposal in the atheist movement to rebrand themselves as “smarts.”

  • JP

    “Jackie…you are correct, of course, that there are some (many?) Christians who are smug in their belief in their own holiness, and hypocritical in their behavior. I’d argue that there are at least an equal number (more, in my neck of the woods) who are nonreligious but are equally smug about their environmentalism and their “progressive” political beliefs.”

    Everybody has a “religion”, even if that “religion” is progressive politics. It’s a feature of being human.

    “Also, many of these secular people (and I myself am not religious) talk endlessly about how *smart* they are…indeed, there was a proposal in the atheist movement to rebrand themselves as “smarts.””

    I think they wanted to rebrand themselves as “brights”.

  • JP

    @David Foster:

    ““limits on total number of children people can have, and only allowing people at 25% above the poverty line to have children”

    Rape, incest, and child-beating are already illegal.”

    I’m arguing that there needs to be a line somewhere, or you get what I see on a regular basis.

    The problem is that the line is primarily psychological and only secondarily financial.

    The attorney in the office who deals with this directly would like a program where they are paid to get their tubes tied, so to speak.

  • Jackie

    @david foster

    “Also, many of these secular people (and I myself am not religious) talk endlessly about how *smart* they are…indeed, there was a proposal in the atheist movement to rebrand themselves as “smarts.”

    Good grief. :roll:

  • Iggles

    @ Just1Z:

    this role historically fell to the women (or rather married women, ones that did not have to work to support themselves). single working women are going to be hard put to care for parents, or afford someone else to do it.

    is ‘our’ current culture really going to deliver on this? I don’t think so.

    maybe married couples with 4+ kids might be able to spread the financial / personal duties burden, but how many of those exist any more?

    You’re conflating two points.

    Taking care of the elders doesn’t mean you move them into your home and provide around the clock care! (Though most families do this, there reached a point when the elderly is so sick that they need to be put into a nursing facility.)

    Single women (and men) absolutely have been and are advocates for their aging parents. Whether they have the financials or not — in which case, the state will put the elderly into a home. The advocate regular visits and argues with the staff making sure their loved one isn’t treated like shit (to be blunt!).

    A lot of elder abuse happens in these homes. THAT’s the most important reason one needs to have someone in their court (whether it’s a child, a niece, a nephew, or other).

    @ Jackie:

    That is a really good point, Iggles. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

    Cool :)

    I’ve been played by a troll. Plain Jane, is that you?

    It does amuse me at times when people actually respond. But, no, mostly in my head I’m like, “Oh no.. Here we go.. *sigh*”

    I’ve gotten pretty good at spotting trollish comments and have learned to just back away. It’s just not worth it. Arguing with someone whom logic holds no bearing is a fruitless exercise..
    (And, every since Michael exploded at me with a long misogynistic rant — which is why he was originally got put into moderation — I don’t have the patience or desire to engage them!)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Justiz: “The easiest way to reduce the number of poor people having kids is to stop subsidising them. stop giving them free housing.”

    Yes Justiz, but then what do you do with them, watch them die?
    And what are meerkats?…

  • Iggles

    Yes Justiz, but then what do you do with them, watch them die?

    Good point Damien.

    There are no easy answer. Although FWIW, more education and access to opportunities tends to slow down birth rates more effectively than birth control…

  • Just1Z

    @Iggles
    “You’re conflating two points.”

    no, just that caring for others involves time and/or money.

    a single woman (or man) working 60 hours a week is not going to be able to provide much on demand personal care for parents. state care isn’t great in quality here and demographics are getting worse (inescapably) so this isn’t going to improve – costs are going to get worse, people to do it increasingly elusive. robot arsewipers are our only hope.

    the costs of care homes are ridiculous here, I can’t imagine that things are better in the States. so, 1 kid paying for their parents isn’t easy either.

    “Single women (and men) absolutely have been and are advocates for their aging parents. ”

    Doing this cost me a job and many thousands of pounds when I had little in the bank. I, personally, have put (parental) family first in the past. My point is that I could not afford to do that indefinitely financially (paying for care) or not working in order to provide the care (which would not be acceptable anyway to those concerned).

    Your concerns over social care (so paid by the taxpayer at large) – those I fully share with you. the state is not a care provider that provides generously. And that is some decades away for me, with things getting tighter financially

  • Just1Z

    stop making it a financially attractive path to have kids without the ability to support them yourselves.

    prepare for a treat!
    http://meerkat.comparethemarket.com
    ‘Simples!’ is the catch phrase of a marketing campaign here

  • Just1Z

    so, the meerkat polka band play the theme from a soap opera that has run for decades; ‘enjoy’

    http://meerkat.comparethemarket.com/coronation-street/

  • http://jseliger.wordpress.com jseliger

    Your Best Strategy For Finding a Mate

    The most interesting thing to me is how closely your advice parallels Lori Gottlieb’s implied advice in “Marry Him!,” and how different it is from Gottlieb’s earlier piece, “The XY Files.” It seems like a lot of this knowledge is out there, but it isn’t being processed by its presumed target audience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jseliger

      I wrote a post on Lori Gottleib, here’s an excerpt:

      “Let me say right off that I really don’t care for the word Settling here. No one else does either, and Lori Gottlieb has been backpedaling like crazy in interviews to justify its use in the title. Of course, that one word propelled her to the front of the media queue, which creates sales, so it’s officially a brilliant piece of marketing. My problem with the term is that it implies making do with someone that you really don’t want. I would never advise any woman to “settle” for something that feels meh.

      The real question women need to think about is why nearly all men strike them as meh. If almost every guy seems lacking, it’s fair to ask “What’s up with guys these days?” But it’s equally important to ask, “Is my list of requirements wacked?” Herein lies the key.”

      She does have good advice, but it doesn’t go down particularly well. She admits to ultimately falling for a Wallace Shawn lookalike – making clear his SMV was way below hers – and later he gave interviews stating that the dumped her because she was a total shrew and not at all loving.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    The attorney in the office who deals with this directly would like a program where they are paid to get their tubes tied, so to speak.

    I imagine a private organization offering lump sum payments to low lives with criminal histories in return for sterilization. I immediately imagine the resulting furor over it.

  • Modern Drummer

    Good commentary on this,Susan.
    I always laugh when I hear one of these women spout the “men are intimidated” line. These “intimidating” women are the kind men might have for a one nighter,but nothing long term,and certainly not marriageable.
    Some women have an understanding and appreciation for the way masculinity and femininity complement one another. Women like her do not.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    In other words, the value of your savings depends on other people having children.

    And on those children accepting the burden with a reasonable accommodation for the childfree. If the younger population is minority and desirable they can demand whatever they want to. Who is to say that new generation will be up to provide for those that spent their youths “having fun and accumulating money” while their parents spent it on diapers, food and sleepness nights? God knows I know few people that feel “generous” towards free loaders, like none. I could be wrong but I would say that people that don’t want kids should seriously consider some alternatives to childrearing: mentoring, foster parenting, helping raise other siblings kids or just sending 90 cents to a kid on a third world country a month, or learning robotics and started to built their caregiver, just in case, YMMV.

    That’s because those who claim not to want children usually judge those who do (though you’re obviously an exception).
    Yep they do hate children and us for the most part.http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/list.php?2

    with limits on total number of children people can have, and only allowing people at 25% above the poverty line to have children.

    Yes we people raised poor are destroying society, money solves everything and prevents all the uglyness of humanity. Rich people don’t suffer incest, don’t rape, don’t cheat…./sarcasm off.

    We fit into almost everything on Julianne@217′s list, and we don’t watch TV at all. I think this is the case for most LRCFGTOW (large religious Christian families going their own way).

    I don’t plan to have a TV for the most part Netflix and DVD’s FTW!

    there was a proposal in the atheist movement to rebrand themselves as “smarts.”

    Hehehehehe not surprised at all.

    robot arsewipers are our only hope.

    Lack of biological contact shorten people’s lives. Make sure to get a pet aside from the robots, just FYI.

  • JP

    The value of your savings depends far more on a steady supply of cheap energy than anything else.

    And in the U.S. the value of your savings also depends on being able to continue to extract an outsize portion such cheap energy.

  • JP

    @Anacaona:

    “And on those children accepting the burden with a reasonable accommodation for the childfree. If the younger population is minority and desirable they can demand whatever they want to. Who is to say that new generation will be up to provide for those that spent their youths “having fun and accumulating money” while their parents spent it on diapers, food and sleepness nights?”

    Nobody’s going to get rid of Social Security/Medicare anytime soon.

    See the 2012 election for details.

    Advantage, DINKs.

  • JP
  • Just1Z

    @Ana
    I’ve got friends, I just don’t want them wiping me where the sun don’t shine. affordable robot care would be a godsend to those wanting to maintain their dignity. I believe that this is the Japanese hope – they don’t do large scale immigration so thay have no counter to their further advanced demographic crash. Hopefully we get to import the botty-bots* that they design and manufacture.

    *consider this trademarked, it’s a keeper

  • Just1Z

    “I imagine a private organization offering lump sum payments to low lives with criminal histories in return for sterilization. I immediately imagine the resulting furor over it.”

    I believe that this has happened in India, a few decades ago wasn’t it? I don’t know if it was stopped. If the deal is made clear to all concerned then I don’t really see the problem.

    in fact, it is still going on; http://www.healthcentre.org.uk/vasectomy/101-people-in-india-offered-money-for-a-vasectomy.html

    People in India offered money for a Vasectomy

    Men in India are being offered 1,450 Rupee’s, which is the equivalent to just £19, for having a vasectomy. However, this amount of money in India can be life changing and has encouraged a vast number of men to undergo the procedure. The growing percentage of men having vasectomies has almost doubled in several areas and in 2008, there were over 4,500 vasectomies conducted in Mumbai alone. Even if the men bring along a friend to also have the procedure they are rewarded with 200 Rupee’s.

    Whilst this money incentive scheme is being hailed as a contraceptive in an increasingly over-populated world, the question does remain as to what boundaries are being crossed. These men are being offered money in place of one of the most natural things of the human race; reproduction. The scheme itself has been seen as a solution to over-population, but surely money for condoms/contraceptive pills would be a more humane effort? Some may argue that there is the possibility of vasectomy reversals should the man severely regret his operation, but these reversals cost far more than what is received for the vasectomy in the first place.

    Many men are seeing the vasectomy money as a chance to send their children to school, put the money towards much needed furniture and so on. But can a price really be placed on the opportunity to have more children in the future? And is this really a humane answer to slowing down the increase in populations?

    sounds like intelligent policy to me.

  • Just1Z

    India offers cars and TV sets for sterilisation
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8610957/India-offers-cars-and-TV-sets-for-sterilisation.html

    or a gun licence (in case anyone takes the piss?)

    Launching the scheme yesterday in Rajasthan’s Jhunjunu, 155miles west of New Delhi Sitaram Sharma the desert town’s chief medical officer was hopeful that these enticements would tempt at least 30,000 people to undergo sterilisation.

    “We are confident that this idea will work well” Mr Sharma said of the three-month long scheme.

    The inducements on offer contributed by a local charitable trust include one Nano, the world’s cheapest car for the first volunteer, five motorcycles and an equal number of colour televisions and food blenders for disbursal amongst subsequent candidates.

    Others would be paid varying cash amounts that would supplement the federal government’s Family Welfare scheme which offered Rs1000 (£14.20) to those undergoing vasectomy and Rs200 (2.85 Pounds) to the one who motivated them.

    Under a similar incentive scheme launched two years earlier around 150 men had received gun licences in exchange for vasectomies in Central India’s bandit-infested Shivpuri region.

  • Just1Z

    @JP
    I wonder if a graduate with 5 figure debt is less likely to quit? perhaps that makes them preferred employees. in t’olden days you had to be married to climb the employment ladder.

  • Jason
  • Ion

    @ Sassy “I’ve noticed that people who do want children seem to take offense whenever anyone meerly claims to not want children. They take it personally, and I don’t understand why.”

    I actually agree with you 100% here. They are almost like nagging feminist who take up a “this is our duty”, stance because they don’t want to be the only ones participating. I say this and I want kids!

    @ Iggles

    “Although FWIW, more education and access to opportunities tends to slow down birth rates more effectively than birth control…”

    This makes a lot of sense.

    India, China, and the rest of the “third world” (the people who must limit their expansion I assume?) don’t have section 8, do they? Poor people in the US and sharecroppers had plenty of children prior to invention of welfare, they had more actually. Most humans were poor until very recently in history. Sure enough, people kept having even though they couldn’t afford a mortgage, flatscreen or smart car…how did they ever make it? We’re here obviously, so even without section 8 and free lunches, poor people at some point had plenty of children and were successful at it.

    Educate girls though, and their population will decline, so does “marry late” (which also drives up promiscuity since it’s easier to “wait for marriage” when you’re married at 17 instead of 28). Middle class women are being educated so their birth rates are declining; poor women in the U.S. are having more children in comparison because of lack of extended education. I don’t see how welfare has anything to do with it, not really.

  • HanSolo

    @Just1Z

    A reversible injection into the vas deferens that blocks some of the sperm and makes the rest not viable:

    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/health&id=8882020

    http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_vasectomy/

    And a possible drug for male birth control–works in mice:

    http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/health/Cancer-Drug-May-Double-as-Male-Birth-Control-181631761.html

  • J

    Yep they do hate children and us for the most part. http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/list.php?2

    I’d be hard-pressed to explain why, but these people crack me up.

  • HanSolo

    @Just1Z

    Here’s an article that better explains the physical process of how the sperm are disabled. Once reliable male birth control is made and male and female birth control is available to all that want it we will be at a point where by and large only those who want children will have them. Sex and reproduction will have been unlinked and there’s a good chance the population will drop to some lower equilibrium level.

    http://techcitement.com/culture/the-best-birth-control-in-the-world-is-for-men/#.UMUfwYMe4gE

    Then, the doctor injects the polymer gel (called Vasalgel here in the US), pushes the vas deferens back inside, repeats the process for the other vas deferens, puts a Band-Aid over the small hole, and the man is on his way. If this all sounds incredibly simple and inexpensive, that’s because it is….

    The two common chemicals — styrene maleic anhydride and dimethyl sulfoxide — form a polymer that thickens over the next 72 hours, much like a pliable epoxy, but the purpose of these chemicals isn’t to harden and block the vas deferens. Instead, the polymer lines the wall of the vas deferens and allows sperm to flow freely down the middle (this prevents any pressure buildup), and because of the polymer’s pattern of negative/positive polarization, the sperm are torn apart through the polyelectrolytic effect. On a molecular level, it’s what supervillains envision will happen when they stick the good guy between two huge magnets and flip the switch.

    With one little injection, this non-toxic jelly will sit there for 10+ years without you having to do anything else to not have babies. Set it and forget it. Oh, and when you do decide you want those babies, it only takes one other injection of water and baking soda to flush out the gel, and within two to three months, you’ve got all your healthy sperm again.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve got friends,
    I hope some of them are at least 20 years younger or more, you know two 80 year old can’t take care of each other.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ion,

    Educate girls though, and their population will decline, so does “marry late” (which also drives up promiscuity since it’s easier to “wait for marriage” when you’re married at 17 instead of 28). Middle class women are being educated so their birth rates are declining; poor women in the U.S. are having more children in comparison because of lack of extended education. I don’t see how welfare has anything to do with it, not really.

    One quick note, and this is really for everyone, as I’ve seen a lot of weird misconceptions about population lately. Birth rate is not the same as population growth rate. It’s important to understand that, mathematically speaking, it’s entirely possible to have declining birth rates and still have population growth (this is primarily due to increased life expectancy in developed countries), which is why it’s very important to not conflate those two concepts.

    Declining birth rates are not always a bad thing, and they are actually an indicator of economic development. Keep in mind that countries with high birth rates also often have high infant mortality rates, thus people have babies because it is assumed that many of those babies will not survive beyond childhood.

  • Ion

    “One quick note, and this is really for everyone, as I’ve seen a lot of weird misconceptions about population lately. Birth rate is not the same as population growth rate. ”

    Fair enough.

    What are your thoughts on my *actual* point though?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Declining birth rates are not always a bad thing, and they are actually an indicator of economic development
    Except that aging population is a problem after a while, old people can’t work to support each other past certain age, so is still a problem.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ion,
    Well correct me if I’m wrong, but this is a discussion about welfare as an incentive to have more kids, right?

    I’m inclined to agree with you, that people are going to have kids whether or not welfare is an option. This is because I highly doubt people are deciding to have kids specifically because it’ll get them more government money. I forget where it was, but I had a comment around here somewhere making the point that having a kid is still a net loss, even with the welfare benefits.

    I also agree with your (and Iggles’) point about education, and it’s actually a great way to reduce birth rates. As I said before, people tend to get bent out of shape about declining birth rates, but they tend to be an eventual natural consequence of development.

    Ana,

    Except that aging population is a problem after a while, old people can’t work to support each other past certain age, so is still a problem.

    Yes, that tends to be an issue in most developed countries, because there’s a boom during the period between the point at which the infant mortality rate decreases and the point at which the birth rate decreases.

    The alternate, however, is exploding population forever and ever. There are people who say continuous population growth will never be a problem, because humans will always find ways to develop the technology that will help us grow more food, or colonize Mars, or whatever. I’m not that optimistic.

  • JuTR

    Jackie, I agree that you shouldn’t live your life in fear. I think children are wonderful, and I think people should have them.

    You are right that one has to make a decision one way or the other and I would note that it is easier when you have a level of confidence in your choice of mate.

    That being said, I have heard a lawyer advertising as a men’s family law attorney, stating you never know a woman until you meet her in divorce court.

    http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2012/12/divorcee_sits_in_jail_while_ua.html

    “Waldorf, who divorced his wife of 11 years in 2011, was ordered to pay $2,000 a week in alimony to his ex. That amounts to $104,000 a year. In addition he was ordered to pay $3,300 in child support. The problem is that Waldorf has only been taking home about $90,000 a year on average, according to Eden. Eden said he has Waldorf’s tax returns dating back to 2000. The highest income reported by Waldorf during the marriage was $147,000 before taxes according to Eden. In most years Waldorf made $90,000 to $120,000 before taxes. His average take home pay has been about $90,000 a year.

    The alimony payments are in addition to about $100,000 in legal fees incurred during the divorce process.”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The alternate, however, is exploding population forever and ever.

    Not really, population is like wealth and food it concentrates on parts of the world but properly distributed shows that there is enough for all, immigration is a temporary solution for that reason.

    There are people who say continuous population growth will never be a problem, because humans will always find ways to develop the technology that will help us grow more food, or colonize Mars, or whatever. I’m not that optimistic.

    We already beat Malthus prediction once, why wouldn’t it happen again?

  • JuTR

    Anacaona, I would read Mark Steyn’s ‘America Alone’. It’s got a good summary of how demography will pan out over the next century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_Alone

    I would like to note that it was Western Civilization that gave us many of the advances to surpass prior limitations. Anti-intellectual cultures with totalitarian religious mandates are driving the demographic bus.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    We already beat Malthus prediction once, why wouldn’t it happen again?

    Malthus’ argument was based on food production, IIRC. We have bigger problems now, including energy and water use (and global climate change, but people apparently don’t believe that’s an issue around here).

    The thing is, it won’t matter. Birth rates in developing countries will decline regardless of the consequences for an aging population, because infant mortality rates will decrease. In most cases, it’s a natural consequence of development, not a policy enforced by governments worried about overpopulation.

  • HanSolo

    @JuTR

    Another part of the article says:

    “It now also appears Waldorf has lost his job because of his jailing. Meanwhile, Waldorf’s ex-wife, who is disabled, has been getting nothing.”

    That’s insane to order him to pay more per year than he brings home. What a fucked up judge!

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    I really like you (in a platonic/intelectual way lol) but I think that climate change is overhyped. Why have temperatures been flat for the last 15 years while CO2 increases? If it turns out to be real and menacing then geoengineering and adaptation will cost about 10% as much as reducing enough CO2 to make a difference.

    On a practical note, we’re on a course where CO2 is going to continue to rise since nothing significant is being done and won’t be done by China and other rising energy users while developed countries are only minutely reducing their emissions. We will see in 10-50 years if anthropogenic global warming is real and to what extent.

    My personal opinion is that it’s real to a much smaller extent than claimed (1 degree celsius vs 3 or 4).

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    One of the biggest unresolved issues with AGW is what the water vapor feedback will be. The pro-AGW people say it will be a positive feedback, that higher temperatures from the CO2 (I don’t dispute that the CO2 itself is a greenhouse gas and a doubling of it will lead to about 1 degree celsius warming) will produce more water vapor which is also a greenhouse gas and lead to 2-3 degrees additional warming (for a total of 3-4). However, they assume that there won’t be any real change in cloud formation. If you do get more cloud formation then that will block incoming radiation and serve as a counter balance to the water vapor’s warming effects.

    Since we haven’t got as much warming as predicted by the models so far, I tend to think that the cloud (and other) effects may be playing a role and thus make the situation less dire.

    What are your thoughts?

    (I’m not trying to argue in a jerkish way either. I respect you as a fair-minded person, and actually enjoy many of your comments about relationships and human nature.)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Olive,

    “Malthus’ argument was based on food production, IIRC. We have bigger problems now, including energy and water use (and global climate change, but people apparently don’t believe that’s an issue around here)”

    Concerns about energy aren’t new, though…back in the 1600s/1700s, there was massive deforestation in Britain/Scotland due to the the heavy use of wood for fuel (heating, cooking, and smelting) as well as construction. What saved the situation was increased use of coal, partly enabled by steam engines which could drain deep mines, and the discovery that coke (derived from coal) could replace coke (derived from wood) in metallurgical furnaces.

    And then there was the problem of “peak (whale) oil” (used for lighting), which was solved by the use of oil-derived kerosene.

  • INTJ

    @ david foster

    I don’t think it’s only people of Indian heritage who would have found this offensive, and I would wonder about those students who responded to it positively. Regardless of anyone’s personal feelings about whether THEY want to have children or not, the professor’s proposal obviously represents totalitarian thinking that is wholly out of place in American society…but, unfortunately, this kind of thinking is all too common among academics.

    Yes it’s certainly out of place in American society, which was why I was so surprised by the nonchalance with which it was being discussed there. Yes, I had seen authoritarian thinking before – both from right wingers and liberals – but this was at a level I hadn’t previously seen.

    India has a particular history with population control though. Back in the mid-late 20th century, a bunch of neo-malthusianist liberals decided that the Third World population growth was unsustainable – and the only way to respond would be drastic measures to lower birth rates. They pushed governments to implement various policies to meet population control targets in exchange for development assistance and foreign aid. Many countries participated, and of course China independently implemented its insane policy. The Indian prime minister signed up for it, and her took charge of a sterilization program. To meet sterilization targets, they used deceptive practices (such as lying about the reversibility of sterilization, performing sterilization on surgery patients without their knowledge/consent, etc.). Between the sterilization program and the prime minster declaring a state of emergency, the Indian population became very unhappy with the government. The subsequent election resulted in an unprecendented landslide loss for the ruling government. As a side effect of that whole thing, many Indian people became and to some extent still are deeply suspicious of the birth control pill.

    I hope that when you left the honors program, you made it clear why you were doing so.

    I have spoken about it to my friends in the honors program, though I was unnecessarily diplomatic with those in charge of the program.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,
    Glad you showed up! We’re overdue for this discussion and now I have time to respond. Admittedly earth systems science was probably my least favorite course in college, but I’ll do my best.

    Why have temperatures been flat for the last 15 years while CO2 increases?

    Well, keep in mind that when we talk about Earth science, a span of 15 years is fairly negligible. You want to look at the big picture, not the relatively small time increments. People who say “look at all the snow this year, and they say the Earth is getting warmer!” drive me nuts. :-) Having said that, I invite you to examine this link:

    http://climate.nasa.gov/key_indicators/

    There’s good graphic evidence there, not just on surface temperature, but also on sea/land ice and sea level.

    On a practical note, we’re on a course where CO2 is going to continue to rise since nothing significant is being done and won’t be done by China and other rising energy users while developed countries are only minutely reducing their emissions.

    Yes, this was the argument for not ratifying the Kyoto Protocol, and it’s actually the main reason the U.S. did not ratify. “If China isn’t participating, why should we?” China is not considered a fully industrialized country, and as such was considered part of the non-Annex I countries, who were not asked to reduce their emissions. It’s unfortunate that the Kyoto Protocol has had a much smaller effect than expected, simply because the U.S. chose not to ratify.

    We will see in 10-50 years if anthropogenic global warming is real and to what extent.

    Honest question: what would it take for you to believe that it’s a real problem?

    However, they assume that there won’t be any real change in cloud formation. If you do get more cloud formation then that will block incoming radiation and serve as a counter balance to the water vapor’s warming effects.

    Yes, this is an interesting point, and one my professors have made (and it’s why we refer to the changing weather patterns as “climate change” and not “global warming.”) The problem is that increased cloud cover could lead to a whole slew of problems we haven’t thought of before. I’m no meteorologist, but I have to wonder about the lasting effects of increased moisture in the atmosphere, and presumably increased precipitation.

    Also, scientists are still debating about this, but the thinking is that melting sea ice will increase the amount of freshwater in the polar regions, which could affect ocean circulation and, in turn, weather patterns. I can’t find a good source or recall the terms at the moment, but in one of my courses we had discussed the theory that if ocean circulation patterns were compromised, it could actually send Europe into an Ice Age (hardly what we think of when we hear about “global warming”). By the way, feel free to challenge me on that last point—I took earth systems science three years ago, and the scientific thinking and knowledge is always changing.

    But you can see that surface temperature increases are not the only concern.

    Since we haven’t got as much warming as predicted by the models so far, I tend to think that the cloud (and other) effects may be playing a role and thus make the situation less dire.

    It’s possible, but again, warming is not the only thing to be concerned about. Many have proposed that climate change will actually cause more extreme weather patterns, like Katrina and Sandy. Unfortunately I don’t know enough about meteorology to give an educated opinion about that.

    If it turns out to be real and menacing then geoengineering and adaptation will cost about 10% as much as reducing enough CO2 to make a difference.

    So I don’t know a lot about geoengineering, but I looked it up when you mentioned it before, and it seems to me that the basic goal is to increase cloud cover, with the intention of reflecting sunlight. The problem is that this will lead to the same issues associated with increased water vapor: more moisture in the air, and increased precipitation. What will the effects be? I’m skeptical.

    (I’m not trying to argue in a jerkish way either. I respect you as a fair-minded person, and actually enjoy many of your comments about relationships and human nature.)

    LOL! Trust me, I’ve been around for over a year, and have been involved in some pretty contentious debates. It would take a lot for me to consider you a jerk. ;-)

    Susan,
    This constitutes as serious derailing. Say the word and I’ll take this to e-mail.

  • INTJ

    @ Olive

    One quick note, and this is really for everyone, as I’ve seen a lot of weird misconceptions about population lately. Birth rate is not the same as population growth rate. It’s important to understand that, mathematically speaking, it’s entirely possible to have declining birth rates and still have population growth (this is primarily due to increased life expectancy in developed countries), which is why it’s very important to not conflate those two concepts.

    In the long term, total fertility rate is directly related to dependency ratios and whether a population grows or shrinks, aside from net immigration.

  • INTJ

    @ Olive

    The alternate, however, is exploding population forever and ever. There are people who say continuous population growth will never be a problem, because humans will always find ways to develop the technology that will help us grow more food, or colonize Mars, or whatever. I’m not that optimistic.

    We won’t be able to grow indefinitely at a constant growth rate. At one point, simple geometry will prevent us from sending ships to new planets fast enough to maintain an exponential growth rate. But at the current rate we aren’t going to reach anywhere near there. If things continue as they’re doing now, the population will peak in a few decades, well below the carrying capacity of the Earth, and we will have a global demographic crisis on our hands.

  • INTJ

    @ Olive

    Malthus’ argument was based on food production, IIRC. We have bigger problems now, including energy and water use (and global climate change, but people apparently don’t believe that’s an issue around here).

    Energy and water use per capita can be cut dramatically through more efficient use. The population isn’t the main factor here – it’s per capita consumption.

    The thing is, it won’t matter. Birth rates in developing countries will decline regardless of the consequences for an aging population, because infant mortality rates will decrease. In most cases, it’s a natural consequence of development, not a policy enforced by governments worried about overpopulation.

    Not for the one in five people that live in China.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Game of Thrones season 2, here I come!

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    INTJ,

    The population isn’t the main factor here – it’s per capita consumption.

    Carrying capacity is a function of both.

    Not for the one in five people that live in China.

    Obviously.

    Also,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    What would it take for me to believe it? It would take for me to see the temperatures rise as predicted by the models. That’s usually the criteria for accepting any theory or model, that it agree with observation or experiment.

    As to climate change instead of global warming, no. The whole point is that the temperature rises which will then eventually melt the icecaps of Antarctica and Greenland and drastically raise sea levels and change weather patterns.

    You won’t get significantly different weather patterns if the temperature isn’t raised.

    As to more water vapor, the global warming models actually predict less precipation with more variation.

    As to the 15 years, yes, it could be other cycles causing a temporary cooling that masks the otherwise warming global temperatures but then this shows that the climate modelers don’t really understand the earth climate enough to say what is “natural” and what is humanmade.

    But, do you think anything will seriously be done? The US has reduced its emissions but that is dwarfed by the increase from China. That’s why I say that we’re headed down this road and it would be wiser to figure out how to adapt and geoengineer in the best way possible as opposed to continuing to try and fight a lost war (that is if you even think it is worth fighting and for me the evidence is skanty that it is).

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    david foster,

    Concerns about energy aren’t new, though…back in the 1600s/1700s, there was massive deforestation in Britain/Scotland due to the the heavy use of wood for fuel (heating, cooking, and smelting) as well as construction. What saved the situation was increased use of coal, partly enabled by steam engines which could drain deep mines, and the discovery that coke (derived from coal) could replace coke (derived from wood) in metallurgical furnaces.

    And then there was the problem of “peak (whale) oil” (used for lighting), which was solved by the use of oil-derived kerosene.

    Interesting how non-renewables were replaced with other non-renewables. ;-)

    I actually have no doubt we’ll work through the energy thing (nuclear!). Water will be an issue, but as INTJ said, it’s a matter of cutting back on consumption. Just the same, I’m not convinced that continuous population growth should be a goal.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Enjoy. Let me know what you think, especially of Sam as he flirts with that girl. lol

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Haven’t gotten to that yet. But I’ve come up with the scenario that I’d prefer for things to work out: the North gets independence under Rob Stark and all the two-faced Lannisters are killed with Tyrion taking their place as king.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    What would it take for me to believe it? It would take for me to see the temperatures rise as predicted by the models.

    To a T? Tough sell, man. I guess the trends won’t convince you then, just the exact numbers?

    As to climate change instead of global warming, no. The whole point is that the temperature rises which will then eventually melt the icecaps of Antarctica and Greenland and drastically raise sea levels and change weather patterns.

    Okay, but understand that some of those changing weather patterns will actually result in colder temperatures, depending on location. The greenhouse effect is not about temperature, it’s about increased energy from the sun entering the Earth’s atmosphere, which could change any number of weather patterns (from cloud cover to air circulation to ocean circulation, etc.).

    As to more water vapor, the global warming models actually predict less precipation with more variation.

    Can you source this? And is it location-dependent? For example, the Sahara desert won’t get much precipitation, but is the same true of, say, the tropics?

    Admittedly I suck at science, but as far as I remember, increased water vapor leads to increased precipitation (because the vapor heats/expands/rises, hits the cooler air and condenses/sinks).

    As to the 15 years, yes, it could be other cycles causing a temporary cooling that masks the otherwise warming global temperatures

    Methinks you didn’t check my link. I’m not sure why you keep mentioning cooling, because 2005 and 2010 tied for the warmest years on record.

    but then this shows that the climate modelers don’t really understand the earth climate enough to say what is “natural” and what is humanmade.

    Yeah that tends to be the fallback argument of climate skeptics. There are certainly still aspects of the climate issue that are not well-understood, but it’s very clear from the data that there have been changes that correspond to rise in atmospheric CO2. I encourage you to seek out that data (and not just the models, which only predict the future).

    But, do you think anything will seriously be done?

    No, because there are too many people like you who still debate whether it’s a problem. ;-)

    In all seriousness, I do think politicians will continue to dig in their heels when it comes to climate change. They’re too busy using it as political leverage and making it into a Democrats vs. Republicans issue to actually consider real solutions. Several years ago cap and trade was actually on the table and even had bipartisan support (from John Kerry/John McCain/Lindsey Graham) but the media got wind of it, called it “cap and tax,” and basically killed it.

    The US has reduced its emissions but that is dwarfed by the increase from China.

    Couple thoughts on this. First, no one ever got anywhere by pointing fingers and saying “he’s not doing it, why should I?” Emissions are not being reduced as we wait for China to reduce theirs before we reduce ours. To me it’s one of those “act first, then talk” issues. Second, China is in the middle of a development boom. Their circumstances are quite different from ours, and I actually suspect their economy would be hurt more than ours would by enforcing emission reduction measures. I forget where I read this, but somewhere I heard that most of China’s emissions are from manufacturing, while most of ours are from individual consumption. Further, when you break it down to per capita, China’s emissions are actually lower.

    But, you know, none of that matters if climate change isn’t actually a problem. ;-)

  • Mike C

    Unfortunately for me, that got the conversation going on this thread. You drop these turds and then I have to respond. In future I’ll just delete and not deal with it.

    Hmmmm….can’t say that I am all that surprised to see you whip out the “I’m going to delete your comment” card. So much for tolerating a dissenting opinion. My comment on the Mars and Venus was civil and I didn’t attack anyone, and simply stated my opinion. You continue to nitpick my comments looking for any possible offense you can potentially read into them. I have already exercised an enormous amount of restraint and discretion in response to your wishes, but you continue to push to gain even further ground.

    I don’t want to belabor this point, but earlier in this thread both Passerby and BroHamlet basically articulated what I was pointing to, and they are hardly hardcore manospherians. The term is really unimportant whether femcentric or female oriented or whatever. The point is about what the default assumptions are. The fact is you yourself have admitted this is the case in schooling presently with the educational environment tailored to the ways girls learn instead of boys. We simply disagree on the magnitude of the overall societal orientation towards the female POV and female interests.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      The term is really unimportant whether femcentric or female oriented or whatever.

      Not to me.

      There are certain phrases that are triggers for contentious debate. Your introducing Rollo TM terms here is problematic, as he takes the concept well beyond concerns about the rise of feminism and its effect on males in society. He applies it primarily to female sexuality – I am not aware that Rollo writes posts unrelated to sexuality, in fact. I could be wrong, I haven’t read most of his posts.

      Passer By and Bro Hamlet are both examples of men who disagree with me on some occasions without resorting to that adversarial dynamic I feel that you often introduce. It may seem to you like I am nitpicking but I believe you demonize female sexuality unduly and tend to take a defensive stand on the inequality of things like male status, i.e. there “has to be” more to that than a hot wife.” You’re intensely preoccupied with what you appear to perceive as an unfairness in the way the sexes have evolved.

      If you want to discuss society’s view of males, that’s never a problem. For example, you recently opined that society does not tolerate men dating twelve years down, and we discussed that here rationally.

      I request that you do not discuss female sexuality as “flawed,” as it inevitably leads to the same old same old unproductive debate.

  • Mike C

    Let’s not use that word. Once again, I regret its introduction into the conversation by Mike C, who really can’t resist bringing Rollo here, like a cat with a dead mouse.

    And just for the record I didn’t “bring Rollo here”. It really is quite silly to equate me using a term he happens to use with me “bringing him here”. I’ve already abided by your request to not link to his blog. And just a few threads ago, you said you welcomed him to the debate. Make up your mind already and stop concocting flimsy accusations to direct at me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      It really is quite silly to equate me using a term he happens to use with me “bringing him here”.

      He invented it. Google it and see what you get.

      I’ve already abided by your request to not link to his blog.

      I have requested that you do not link, nor introduce blog posts of others into discussion threads here, nor bolster your arguments with what Rollo, Badger et al think.

      And just a few threads ago, you said you welcomed him to the debate. Make up your mind already and stop concocting flimsy accusations to direct at me.

      I reward civility. Civil comments from Rollo are rare, but he did appear earnest in trying to make his points about the attractiveness of 40-50 year old men, lol. (With links to his own blog!) I responded to his comments in kind, which is when you noticed and I said that we were “playing nice.” If he showed up here right now and was civil I would be responsive. I think I’d have to hit him where it hurts, i.e. male mid-life crisis, for that to happen again, but I keep an open mind.

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    Doesn’t have to be exactly but it should be roughly in line, which they’re not. Also, all the things about hurricanes is bogus. The total cyclone energy is at some of the lowest levels over the last several years that it’s been in many decades. One stat I’ve read is that we’ve been 7 years without a category 3+ hurricane reaching landfall in the US and that’s the longest period since 1900.

    Okay, just looked at your link. That’s one record but it has some flaws as to how it calculates things, including urban heat island effects and improper placing of many weather stations in places with lots of asphalt.

    There’s good reason to believe the Medieaval Warming Period was as warm as now too, but which cherry-picking climate “scientists” like Michael Mann find ways to only include certain bristle cone pine trees that make the temperatures appear lower so that the current temperature appears to be the highest. Oh, and when these temperature proxies have shown lower temperatures in the last 50 years then they just cut that off and spliced in the thermometer record without mentioning that to create infamous and discredited hockey stick of flat lower past temperatues and then a big rise in the last 100 years that Al Gore used to focus on.

    Don’t have a source on water vapor and precipitation right now but can find one.

    Correlation and causality are not one and the same. As I said, the causal link between higher CO2 and excessive global warming is the water vapor causing another 2-3 degrees of warming. If you only are raised in temperature 1 degree, then you won’t get the full amount of water vapor that you would if the water vapor causes the additional warming (meaning, the water vapor will also create more water vapor if it is indeed a positive feedback).

    Yes, I do debate whether it’s a serious problem because the global warming proponents haven’t proven that there is a positive feedback with the water vapor and clouds and the temperatures haven’t risen in agreement with the predictions of the models. So, as of now there have been no detrimental effects that can be clearly linked to manmade global warming. Until you can prove a problem then it makes no sense to spend trillions of dollars on solving a problem that may not exist, especially when we can mitigate things later if it turns out to be a problem.

    And for the record, I am open to the possibility that there will be a positive feedback with the water vapor and the larger warming could happen. At this moment though I’m not convinced.

    I’m very happy that cap and trade got killed. I love fracking. Coal is not a favorite of mine. More nuclear should be built but look at Germany, planning on shutting it down. Where will they make up for that energy from? Likely fossil fuels. They’re not serious about fighting carbon emissions and they’re one of the greenest countries on earth.

    Actually, emissions in the US and EU are down over the last 5 years, due to using more NG than before and displacing coal, better mileage, and the recession.

    Those that try to act first will harm their economies. Look at Germany. They had very generous solar subsidies and are now fading them out. California is the test case in the US and their financial situation (for other reasons as well) is terrible.

    And I agree, I don’t think it’s much of a problem. But we will see. Baring some miraculous invention that produces clean and cheap energy, we’re like the roller coaster car that has gone over the edge and we are just going to have to ride it out and adapt as needed.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Last I checked white-knighting doesn’t count as flirting. Granted, she did the whole flirting thing with “you’re so brave”, but he didn’t really respond in kind.

    Turns out Sam isn’t a coward though. I mean, I’d be way too scared (both of that husband/father guy and of the captain of the watch) to get involved in a situation like that, but Sam did.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Well, he flirts later and giver her a present.

    He’s not afraid of the father because he’s in a pussy trance!!! :D

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Well, he flirts later and giver her a present.

    Yeah just saw that.

    He’s not afraid of the father because he’s in a pussy trance!!!

    Yup. I always wonder why I’m immune to it though…

  • INTJ

    Also, Tyrion gets more and more badass by the day. This “the Queen mustn’t know I’m planning to wed Princess Marcella to x person” thing is epic!

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Not sure why but have you tried hanging out or going out with any girls? You’ve said you don’t want anything serious unless it has a good chance of really leading to marriage. That’s fine. What about asking out girls that you may know or trying online dating?

  • HanSolo

    Yeah, Tyrion is pretty awesome. lol

    I wish Aria would have killed Joffrey back at the start of Season 1.

  • Emily

    Re: Old People

    If the Boomers want to be taken care of in their old age, it would probably be in their best interests to stop screwing over the younger generations. I think it was INTJ who made the same point earlier: I plan on doing whatever I can to make sure that my own parents are taken care of, but I’m not exactly feeling indebted to the rest of them. …especially considering how they allowed so many of the elderly from the “Greatest Generation” to go neglected.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,
    I plan to come back with a longer response when I’m not on the verge of passing out, but I just wanted to address this:

    Okay, just looked at your link. That’s one record but it has some flaws as to how it calculates things, including urban heat island effects and improper placing of many weather stations in places with lots of asphalt.

    This is the info I found on their measuring methods:
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/
    Particularly this:
    As there are other potential sources of error, such as urban warming near meteorological stations, etc., many other methods have been used to verify the approximate magnitude of inferred global warming. These methods include inference of surface temperature change from vertical temperature profiles in the ground (bore holes) at many sites around the world, rate of glacier retreat at many locations, and studies by several groups of the effect of urban and other local human influences on the global temperature record. All of these yield consistent estimates of the approximate magnitude of global warming, which now stands at about twice the magnitude that we reported in 1981. Further affirmation of the reality of the warming is its spatial distribution, which has largest values at locations remote from any local human influence, with a global pattern consistent with that expected for response to global climate forcings (larger in the Northern Hemisphere than the Southern Hemisphere, larger at high latitudes than low latitudes, larger over land than over ocean).

    It should be noted that this is from NASA. Maybe I could see concern about bias if we were talking about the EPA, but NASA is hardly the epitome of tree-hugging environmentalist hippies.

  • Mike C

    Re Global Warming/Climate Change

    There is another perspective to the issue beyond which science is right. It is the classic Type 1 versus Type 2 error. Which outcome is worse if you are wrong? Warren Buffett had some good comments awhile back:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/35644956/page/2/

    BUFFETT: I’m not a physicist, but if–it may be that odds are 90 percent that the global warming people are right. It may be 95 percent, it may be 50 percent. But if it’s 20 percent, you still have to act like they’re right, because, I mean, if you’re betting on the future of the planet, you know, you do not want to say, you know, `Well, I’m not sure about it,’ when the problem keeps increasing year by year. So we have to do something significant to reduce carbon emissions. I didn’t think–the cap and trade thing was a big wealth transfer, basically, from the Midwest to the coast. But we can–we can dictate that X percent of electric generation by 2020, by 2030, by 2040, you know, has to be–you have to get rid of the stuff that’s polluting the atmosphere. And the utility industry will do that. It’ll be expensive. Consumers will pay for it. I mean, it’s the nature of utilities. Consumers will pay for it. But it’s the price we pay for the planet. The big problem, of course, is it’s a worldwide problem and the United States can’t do it by itself.

    If climate change is completely bogus and you institute restrictive policies, the cost is perhaps lower standard of living, slower economic growth, etc. If you do nothing, and it is correct then the cost may have catastrophic consequences. Most people buy insurance and add costs to their budgets hoping they will never need to use it.

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    The head of GISS at NASA, which produces the record you mention, is James Hansen, a scientist and global warming activist, so no, he is not free of bias.

  • szopen

    @mike C

    Most people buy insurance and add costs to their budgets hoping they will never need to use it.

    I was just going to say that :)

    @HanSolo
    You have several scenarios with consequences described here:

    http://climatechange.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/Turn_Down_the_heat_Why_a_4_degree_centrigrade_warmer_world_must_be_avoided.pdf

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    Why spend 10′s of trillions of dollars to fight global warming when it’s not certain it will even be that damaging when we can use geoengineering at a ~1/10 the cost to reflect sunlight back into space at a later point if needed and once we understand the climate and atmosphere and earth cycles much better?

    This discussion is interesting but in the end it doesn’t matter. Nothing will be done about it and we will see what the truth is in 10-50 years. Better to spend effort on figuring out how to adapt instead of trying to talk about something that won’t happen–namely, reducing CO2 levels.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,
    Okay, fair enough. The man is a well-respected scientist who’s been studying this stuff since the early ’80s, way before it became a huge political issue. But okay, if my source is biased, then I gotta ask: what are your sources? You’ve shared tons of info but have not backed it up with anything.

  • Mike C

    Why spend 10′s of trillions of dollars to fight global warming when it’s not certain it will even be that damaging when we can use geoengineering at a ~1/10 the cost to reflect sunlight back into space at a later point if needed and once we understand the climate and atmosphere and earth cycles much better?

    I would certainly agree if you are correct about the geoengineering and reflecting the sunlight. Admittedly, this is way outside my bailiwick. My only point is this is one of those things you don’t get a do over on if you are wrong.

    This discussion is interesting but in the end it doesn’t matter. Nothing will be done about it and we will see what the truth is in 10-50 years. Better to spend effort on figuring out how to adapt instead of trying to talk about something that won’t happen–namely, reducing CO2 levels.

    You may be right on that, but I don’t see why a global treaty involving the major economies is an impossibility.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    You may be right on that, but I don’t see why a global treaty involving the major economies is an impossibility.

    People (including HanSolo) argue that all the strides made by the developed countries in reducing emissions will simply be negated by the increased emissions of developing countries, like China.

    Interestingly, I wonder if China won’t be the first to figure something out. It’s true that they now have the highest emissions, but I read an article a year or two ago about their work with clean coal technologies… which I’m admittedly not a fan of, but it’s interesting that they’re considering these things, even if they were not asked to sign the Kyoto Protocol.

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    Here’s a source for the UAH satellite-based temperature anomaly record.

    http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_Oct_2012_v5.5.png

    There is also an RSS record.

    As you can see, the temperature is flat over the last ~15 years. I’m not sure what other sources you want. Everything I’ve said can be backed up, though some of those things represent an opinion or uncertain area and will have papers and evidence on both sides.

    The deeper issue is what is your point in terms of an action plan? Are you hoping to reduce CO2 levels to 1990? IMO, never going to happen this century, barring some miraculous technology or complete societal collapse soon.

    If global warming is real it seems more sensible to figure out how to adapt and/or geoengineer.

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    A treaty is not an impossibility but the trends are in the opposite direction. Kyoto is expiring and Canada, Japan, and Russia are not willing to sign onto a successor–so you have fewer significant emitors than before willing to do Kyoto II. China and the US aren’t showing any signs of being on board either.

    My guess is there will continue to be a lot of talk but no significant action and all the while CO2 levels will continue to rise. Here’s the CO2 levels over the last 50 years:

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_data_mlo.png

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,
    As I suspected, your source is just as biased. I looked up Dr. Roy Spencer, and he has a rep. of being one of the primary climate skeptics. He was once interviewed by Rush Limbaugh and believes in Intelligent Design. Let’s just say… I’m not convinced by him any more than I am by Hansen. If one is an activist, so is the other.

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    This is what China and India are doing (along with others):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/20/coal-plants-world-resources-institute

    oal plants are the most polluting of all power stations and the World Resources Institute (WRI) identified 1,200 coal plants in planning across 59 countries, with about three-quarters in China and India. The capacity of the new plants add up to 1,400GW to global greenhouse gas emissions, the equivalent of adding another China – the world’s biggest emitter. India is planning 455 new plants compared to 363 in China, which is seeing a slowdown in its coal investments after a vast building programme in the past decade.

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    There is no disputing that the satellite record shows no warming in the last 15 years. The other satellite record shows the same thing, done by other people.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    HanSolo,

    The deeper issue is what is your point in terms of an action plan? Are you hoping to reduce CO2 levels to 1990? IMO, never going to happen this century, barring some miraculous technology or complete societal collapse soon.

    Again, it’s an issue of politics, and the sad reality is that climate change does not garner enough public concern for politicians to make it a hot-button issue. And when it was a hot-button issue, it was just another Republican-Democrat divide. There’s no consensus about whether it’s actually a serious issue.

    There are ways to reduce emissions though. They involve weaning ourselves off coal (switch to nuclear, increase funding for large-scale solar/wind projects) and oil (hybrids/electric cars).

    You’ll be interested to know that I actually hate discussing climate change, as far as environmental topics go. I get very stressed out when I look at the data and I become easily frustrated by skeptics. I’m also not great with explaining scientific concepts clearly and concisely, which is exasperating and limits my ability to share all of my knowledge. Look up “heat capacity” though; it sort of explains why a temperature increase of 1 degree celsius, particularly in the ocean, is such a big deal.

    One other thing: in this conversation, you’ve sort of gone back and forth between claiming that climate change is not a serious issue and that it doesn’t matter if it’s an issue because we’ll never make the appropriate changes anyway. Pick a point: I’ll either argue with you about whether it’s a solvable issue, or I’ll argue with you about whether it’s an issue at all. But there’s no point discussing whether it’s solvable if your fallback thesis is that there’s no problem in the first place. Likewise, there’s no point discussing whether it’s a real problem if your fallback thesis is it’s not even solvable.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    There is no disputing that the satellite record shows no warming in the last 15 years. The other satellite record shows the same thing, done by other people.

    To be honest, neither of the graphs look flat to me. They oscillate. There are two primary differences: 1) the UAH graph shows temp. anomaly since 1979, while the NASA graph goes back to 1880; 2) in the UAH graph, the red line is a 13-month mean. In the NASA graph, the corresponding red line is a 5-year mean.

    The 13-month mean will capture more of the variation, while the 5-year mean shows the more long-term trend.

  • szopen
  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    I am familiar with heat capacity.

    I have been consistently making 2 points all along:

    1) Global Warming is likely going to be moderate but I could be wrong. The magnitude of future global warming is uncertain due to the unknown water vapor feedback effect and other unknown climate cycles. I am of the opinion that there will not be a high amount of additional water vapor caused global warming, due to more cloud formation. However, since this is unknown at the present I could be wrong. I think there will be moderate anthropogenic global warming in the 1 to 1.5 C range for a doubling of CO2.

    2) If AGW does occur then I think that geoengineering and adaptation is a better strategy because it is much cheaper. CO2 will very likely continue to rise because as a whole people are not doing anything significant about it. Because of this it seems futile to try and come up with plans to reduce CO2 when none of this is going to produce total reductions. Given that CO2 will continue to rise it would be better to spend effort on how to adapt and geoengineer increased reflectivity without messing up other things, in case AGW really is of the stronger version.

  • Just1Z

    @Olive
    “This is because I highly doubt people are deciding to have kids specifically because it’ll get them more government money”

    doubt away, but you’re wrong.

  • HanSolo

    @szopen

    Look at the satellite records. They both show a flat average over the last 15 years.

    Those articles you mentioned are using ground-based data that has more problems than the satellite-based ones.

    @Olive

    The satellites only go back to 1979 or so because that’s when the satellites were sent up. By flat (over the 15 years), it is meant that if you fit a straight line to the data that you get zero slope, not that there are no oscillations in the data itself.

  • Just1Z

    @Han

    yes, the risug/vasalgel stuff looks very encouraging for men, catastrophic for birth rates though, I suspect. If both sides have to decide that they’re up for kids and one side doesn’t have da baby rabies…no more accidents.

    I heard of a friend of a friend who said that, “when it was time for kids, she’d make it happen”. pretty poor attitude for a man if you ask me. how about, you know, at least having a conversation and make a joint decision?

  • HanSolo

    @Olive

    Going to bed. I’m happy to continue the conversation but it’s probably better to do it somewhere else (maybe by email: quantumcastle) so as to not threadjack during prime time reading. And sorry Susan if this got too off topic. And that would be yahoo. Good night and cheers.

  • Just1Z

    @Han!
    are you having trouble sleeping? :) thought you were in the States(?)

  • Just1Z

    good night, I’m still a page back in reading, else I think I would have known why you were still up.

  • HanSolo

    @Just1Z

    Yes, I think we will get to a point where only voluntary reproduction will happen. It will be interesting if there is some genetic component that contributes to people consciously wanting (more) kids and that this will be chosen for once more universal (male and female) birth control is available.

  • HanSolo

    @Just1Z. Have to get up in 5 1/2 hours for a breakfast date. I have a feeling I won’t be at my best. lol My “game” sucks when I’m tired. Thanks a lot Olive ;) lol

  • HanSolo

    Meant “propagate” or “be selected” instead of “chosen for”.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Global Warming is likely going to be moderate but I could be wrong.

    I think you made up your mind already. :-)

    The magnitude of future global warming is uncertain due to the unknown water vapor feedback effect and other unknown climate cycles. I am of the opinion that there will not be a high amount of additional water vapor caused global warming, due to more cloud formation.

    Once again, cloud formation brings about it’s own problems. I’ve already addressed this.

    However, since this is unknown at the present I could be wrong. I think there will be moderate anthropogenic global warming in the 1 to 1.5 C range for a doubling of CO2.

    That’s what Dr. Roy says too. :-)

    One more piece of evidence in favor of climate change:
    http://www.scienceworldreport.com/articles/4288/20121207/arctic-sea-ice-melt-equivalent-size-u.htm

    If AGW does occur then I think that geoengineering and adaptation is a better strategy because it is much cheaper.

    I already had an argument against geoengineering, mainly that increased cloud cover over the ocean will lead to increased precipitation, which could change weather patterns and ocean circulation.

    CO2 will very likely continue to rise because as a whole people are not doing anything significant about it.

    You know, maybe China isn’t doing much, but recall that the U.S. is responsible for 19% (nearly a fifth) of worldwide emissions.
    http://epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/global.html
    Whatever we choose to do to reduce our emissions will have a significant effect.

  • Just1Z

    @Ana
    it’s what my botty-bot is for.
    I don’t fancy a future as a vegetable, when I decide that time is up for any quality of life…’nuff said. I’ve seen female relatives ‘keep going’ for a couple of decades having a crap life, not for me thanks. And a sufficient, but not necessary, sign that it’s over is the permanent loss of ability to clean my own arse.

    Also, spending 20 years+ raising kids so that they’ll hopefully take care of me for twenty years…where’s the glory in that life? The noble spirit etc etc.

    I’m a Trekkie at heart (glorious future of adventure and discovery), your option sounds rather Soylent Green (mmmmm soylent green). Society seems to be aiming for Brave New World (drugs and enforcement of class), while the signs look like 1984 (Big Brother’s gentle care and loving supervision) will be the result. Only BB’s ability to take care of us will be far closer than Orwell described.

    OT, but ever read ‘The Starchild’ trilogy?

    http://www.chris-winter.com/Erudition/Reviews/Pohl_Williamson/Starchild.html
    it’s pretty old (older even than I) it has children with perfect pitch ‘singing’ data into computers (living modems. but it also has people having to log in with the computer regularly so that their explosive security collars aren’t detonated. It’s a dystopian science fantasy series with some weird signs of it’s age.

    but anyway, I’m not worried about sticking around for dystopia as a vegetable. and I wish the next generations luck with where they take things, because there’s a lot of potential for interesting times.

  • Just1Z

    @Olive
    http://www.the-latest.com/single-mothers-living-welfare-lifestyle-choice

    In the 1980s a single mother typically had separated from a partner after some years of marriage or cohabitation. Now, a growing proportion have never been in a co-resident relationship, Dench claimed.

    In 1986 just 15 per cent of single mothers with children under 13 described themselves as never having married or cohabited, but by 2006 the proportion had increased to 57 per cent.

    Dench said: “It seems that lone motherhood is less a result of relationship breakdown and more a lifestyle choice.

    “And the existence of state benefits as source of economic security seems to be encouraging young mothers not to bother with male resident partners.”

    My point is not specific to the UK. It is that when benefits make it a viable choice (whether you or I would choose it or not) some people will choose it.

    a single mum here gets a free apartment, unemployment and child benefits. girls living in areas where a decent job is not going to happen, living with their mother for the rest of their forseeable future…some of them can and do choose to get put up the duff by a local thug. rinse and repeat whenever a requirement to get a job threatens…

  • Just1Z

    @Olive

    so having put you on a downer over human beings, let me cheer you up over AGW – it’s ony fair.

    http://alfin2100.blogspot.be/2012/11/data-suggests-climate-entering-30-year.html

    Ongoing sea temperature readings suggest that global heat content has stabilised over the past 15 years — despite an 8.5% rise in atmospheric CO2 levels. Ongoing observations are diverging significantly from James Hansen’s IPCC model projections, as seen below. Some observers of climate data are expecting the Earth to pass through at least a 30 year climate cooling period.

    The apparent “decoupling” of global heat from atmospheric CO2 concentrations — with the clear divergence of observed temperatures from projected temperatures — provides mounting evidence for falsification of IPCC climate models.

    Here is an excerpt from an article by Dr. Norman Page, which uses empirical data to contradict IPCC climate model-based projections (via WUWT):

    1. Check the Temperature Trends and Data.

    Because of the Urban Heat Island effect ,the built in local variability of the NH land data and the thermal inertia of the oceans, Sea Surface Temperatures are the best measure of global temperature trends. These show that the global warming trend ended in about 2003. THERE HAS NOW BEEN NO NET WARMING SINCE 1997 -15 YEARS WITH CO2 RISING 8.5% WITH NO GLOBAL TEMPERATURE INCREASE. SINCE 2003 THE TREND IS NEGATIVE.
    To check the past years go to
    ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/anomalies/annual.ocean.90S.90N.df_1901-2000mean.dat
    and for monthly updates go to.
    ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/anomalies/monthly.ocean.90S.90N.df_1901-2000mean.dat

    The 2012 average NCDC SST anomaly thru Sept was .4438 versus the 1997 annual anomaly of .4575.
    The peak anomaly was .5207 in 2003.

    An excellent site for reviewing all the basic temperature data is http://www.climate4you.com/

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Just1Z,
    After The Great Global Climate Change Debate, I have zero desire to discuss/debate welfare, or those leeches called single mothers. I also don’t want to derail poor Susan’s thread any further (as if that was actually possible).This time you win. ;-)

  • Just1Z

    “most of China’s emissions are from manufacturing, while most of ours are from individual consumption”

    yes, this is what happens when you export the US’s manufacturing to China. Greenies use it to try to shame the States, but as usual it’s worth thinking about it a little beyond the line that they’re pushing.

    Anything requiring massive energy consumption has to flee countries with expensive energy (i.e. environmental regulation). Germany is in the process of discovering why its green energy moves are catastrophic. They also closed their nuclear plants down when Fukushima went pete tong (they restarted some with little fanfare). they now import electricity from France (nuclear) and Poland (coal). because wind and solar either don’t work economically, or just flat out don’t work when the weather is wrong.

    The UK show some, slight signs of political thinking about power production (shale gas vs sea based windpower), but unfortunately our political class are all technologically retarded and tied themselves to the mast of greeniedom some years ago. They aren’t STEMs, they studied Politics, Philosophy and Economics ‘PPE’ and never worked outside the political machine – sound familiar? it really should.

    PPE and political power – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511

  • Just1Z

    @Olive
    I win! cool, and good night, sleep tight

  • Just1Z

    “about twice the magnitude that we reported in 1981″

    call me a cynic, but my immediate question is, “What was the magnitude reported in 1981?” and the next question is “Why wasn’t it quoted?”.

    If it was large they would have quoted it as a number, but they didn’t. They clearly thought that their biggest bang per buck was saying ‘twice’.

    ‘Young’ people (under forty – you durned whippersnappers) might not be aware that we haven’t always believed that global warming was happening, in fact in the early 70′s it was ‘the coming ice age’.

    Have you watched ‘The great global warming swindle’ – Full version
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtevF4B4RtQ

    I’m not saying that this program is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But it might flag up some points for consideration. It’s also a few years old, so the 15 years of static temps wasn’t available to them.

    This woman is ‘cool’
    http://joannenova.com.au/
    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/sh1/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdf

  • Sai

    @Passer_By
    “Maybe the women will fight with swords over the high status men and shout “There can be only one!” as they behead each other. That would be pretty cool to watch.”
    It’s even funnier because you were replying to Highlander! :D

    Renee #247
    I agree~
    (I WAS CURIOUS AND BORED)

    @INTJ
    I did not know the Indian government did that.
    “I have spoken about it to my friends in the honors program, though I was unnecessarily diplomatic with those in charge of the program.”
    You’re a better person than I. I would have reamed them.

    @Just1Z
    “I don’t fancy a future as a vegetable, when I decide that time is up for any quality of life…’nuff said. I’ve seen female relatives ‘keep going’ for a couple of decades having a crap life, not for me thanks. And a sufficient, but not necessary, sign that it’s over is the permanent loss of ability to clean my own arse.”
    +one million

  • szopen

    @Just1Z

    in fact in the early 70′s it was ‘the coming ice age’.

    It was not. The scientists never in their majority at any period of XX century believed that ice age is coming. What have been journalists writing is totally different matter, but you cannot blame scientists for alarmist news made by journalist. You should know how science is being reported.

    Have you watched ‘The great global warming swindle’

    I have watched. It is full of errors, half-truths, misrepresentations of real data and so on.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/levitus-2012-global-warming-heating-oceans.html

    Ocean heat content has not stabilised. In fact, it is rising continously in the last 15 years.

  • NK

    I agree with most of this post and at the age of 26 I am taking my search for a husband pretty seriously. I am now dating a guy who has all the right hallmarks and am putting in an effort to show him my qualities. I dated him briefly in 2010 when I still so messed up about an ex and unsure of myself and never took it further. Now he is giving me another chance and I am grateful. Truly.

    I haven’t read all the comments yet so excuse me if someone has brought this up already. There is another option – there are men out there who are becoming stay at home dads. I’ve met a few and in fact I had a relationship with one when I was 18 – 22. He actively used to say to me if you want to have a long term career and go to the top I want to be the carer of the kids. My dream is to have some kids with my wife and work part time or have my own project and be the main carer. I might even stay at home and not work part time if needed. At the time I thought he was unique and alas I left him already, due to my commitment issues. He was a good catch. You live you learn I guess. Nowadays I am completely ready to be the main carer. I don’t see my career as the be and end all like I used to. I am actually going into teaching and find that this career path is supportive of working and having kids due to environment and the holidays. Plus I am well suited and enjoy encouraging learning.

    My point is that when you find someone suitable it might not turn out to be the ‘traditional’ set up but might be the result of you and your partners unique strengths.

    I also think that the state of the economy is making lots of people think differently about their choices. This is a good thing.

  • NK

    Yes in the UK there are a lot of women doing this. Sigh. One of my oldest friends has just down this. It saddens me and I actually had a crisis of confidence in being her friend when she told me her plans. She actually asked me to be involved by living in her future council flat and paying her rent money while she stayed at home with her mum and saved up the dosh. Now she has her baby and lots of drama with the father (who is an ex boyfriend who she started having sex with again just to get pregnant). She doesn’t want him to look after the baby without her around because his family is unsuitable (he lives with his mum). Aparently his uncles a paedo, his mums an alcoholic, his sister is a drug addict and he won’t know how to look after the baby properly.

    MY answer (after coaching her about not creating more drama) is that you made your bed. Now Lie.

  • NK

    How do I delete a comment? it had a specific spelling error!

    To add to this – I had a frustrating conversation with my mother recently. I was explaining how I feel about finding a partner ( I was a little pmt that day). She isn’t the best person in terms of experience to give advice and in truth I just needed someone to listen to me more than advice hunting. All she had to say to me was that if I don’t find a suitable man or (one that will have me!) then I can have a baby by myself and theres nothing wrong with it. In fact it might be a better option. That way I scan have a kid first and then I might find a man. This sort of attitude is very prominent and my flatmate is actively planning on doing this (she’s 39). I just felt like I have lots of negativity around me and need to talk to some people who haven’t given up!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Mike C…”Most people buy insurance and add costs to their budgets hoping they will never need to use it.”

    But most people also don’t buy insurance policies so expensive that they impoverish themselves.

    Economically-rational people also *shop* for insurance policies, rather than voluntarily paying 3 times more more the same coverage. Yet a high % of “global warming” believers are also opposed to nuclear power, which tends to make one think that their true agenda is something other than CO2 reduction.

  • Just1Z

    @szopen
    “You should know how science is being reported”
    indeed I do. What did you think of Jo Nova’s booklet?

    “I have watched. It is full of errors, half-truths, misrepresentations of real data and so on. ”
    so, quite unlike Gore’s pack of lies and distortions then?
    also, as I said,
    “I’m not saying that this program is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But it might flag up some points for consideration. It’s also a few years old, so the 15 years of static temps wasn’t available to them.”

    Jo Nova’s booklet http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/sh1/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdf
    (follow the link, it’s free) is clear and concise.
    If you can debunk that, that would be interesting to see.

  • Just1Z

    @Sai
    do you know how surprised I am that you are of that opinion too?
    not in the slightest :)

    at a terrible time for my family, only the knowledge that the incapacitated person would not want to be resuscitated spared the rest of us that discussion, decision and living with it on our consciences. the person in question’s views had long since been made clear and we respected them. as it turned out, this decision was not a factor in the conclusion of the ‘matter’, but it could have been. I’m not saying that my way is the only way, just that it is my way, and that it is a good idea to have the discussion with your next of kin ahead of time – my relative was beyond asking when a response was required. I expect to be more pro-active when my time comes, but you never know how the cookie will crumble.

  • Just1Z

    @szopen
    contrary to your assertion that ‘scientists’ blah-blah

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-warming-or-the-new-ice-age-fear-of-the-big-freeze/30336

    There has been an intense debate among leading scientists, government agencies and publications over whether the bigger threat is global warming or a new ice age. As we’ve previously noted, top researchers have feared an ice age – off and on – for more than 100 years. (This post does not weigh in one way or the other. It merely presents a historical record.)

    links to
    Scientists Considered Pouring Soot Over the Arctic in the 1970s to Help Melt the Ice – In Order to Prevent Another Ice Age
    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/12/scientists-considered-pouring-soot-over-the-arctic-in-the-1970s-to-help-melt-the-ice-in-order-to-prevent-another-ice-age.html

    I were young at the time, but I remember a BBC science program ‘Horizon’ talking about it. some scientists have always tried a little hyperbole to increase their funding, using a new catastrophe du jour.

  • szopen

    @Just1Z
    She does not understand a theory. For example, she writes that in the past CO2 was rising after temperature have risen first, which is something which is predicted by the theory.

    At page 3rd, I haven’t heard the 1st one, 2nd one is her misunderstanding of the theory, the 3rd is a partial truth, and 4th is a valid question (the saturation effect) but it is already addressed by scientists – I would have to google a bit, and I need to go to kindergarten, so tomorrow I will provide the links. On page 7, she is mistaken. The data was checked by Berkeley universities, and urban stations are NOT causing the warming.

    On page 11, she is mistaken again repeating that CO2 follows temperatures (something which is predicted by the theory) and she does not quote things which are usually given as evidence.

    The only thing which is IMO valid is about the saturation, but I really had to go now.

  • Abbot

    Here is some more cautionary tale. Confirms that there are women for one thing and other women for all the rest, aka the real double standard.

    “people in friends-with-benefits relationships had more sex partners”
    “people in these relationships were less sexually satisfied”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/friends-with-benefits-safe-sex-study_n_2232534.html

    .

  • Just1Z

    UHI (urban heat islands – surface stations) http://www.surfacestations.org/
    there’s a world of chicanery exposed. check out the photos of heat sensors now surrounded by tarmac, cooling vents but that’s okay? yeah right. Nova makes points about this.

    “She does not understand a theory. For example, she writes that in the past CO2 was rising after temperature have risen first, which is something which is predicted by the theory.”
    Tell it to her, a climate scientist.
    I guess you’re talking about the theory as amended when the original theory made no such mention of CO2 lagging temp? when they had to bodge the theory to match the evidence? how about a reference to a prediction of the lag made before the evidence was revealed? Nova makes points about this.

    did you look at the predictions of temp vs the reality in Nova’s booklet?
    the climate models are borked.

    I followed the UEA catastrophuck and the ‘inquiries’ that weren’t (inquiries that is). the politics stinks right alongside the science.

    skeptical science is proper science. agw is a religion, and it’s killing people in the third world.

  • Ion

    Olive

    “The alternate, however, is exploding population forever and ever. There are people who say continuous population growth will never be a problem, because humans will always find ways to develop the technology that will help us grow more food, or colonize Mars, or whatever. I’m not that optimistic.”

    I don’t know about that, all I know is that when the average middle class “American” family consumes as much as 30 Kenyans (and what? 15 Indians, 30 Guatemalans?), etc., then telling the third world to stop making children is hypocritical, and borders on Eugenics.

    The 2.5 children each family in the U.S. has is WAY more dangerous to the resources of the planet than a third world family with 12 kids. How many of us have christmas lights running all night for christ sake?

    The west is causing a strain on resources because western countries have more, if we consumed less, and everyone pretty much consumed the same amount would the planet still be overpopulated? I know that’s a fantasy question, but I am curious if all resources were about equal, wouldn’t the planet be lower middle class? That’s livable and all that’s required to raise children.

  • JP

    Douthat’s right, but decadence is just cultural winter.

    Things change only with impulses from spiritual awakenings, which *then* drive the individual choices.

    In any event, this is tied into consumer capitalism/secular humanism, and it’s just a phase because it’s essentially self-liquidating.

    I suppose the best way of looking at these eras is in sets of four “generational cycles” as set forth in Stauss and Howe. I’d have to think about this much more carefully to even begin to take a stab at the cultural map going forward.

    From a personal standpoint, I have a hard time looking at any longer periods than the standard issue 20 year projection.

  • Ion

    “This article by Ross Douthat where he called childlessness decadence has caused quite a stir”

    Wow, that article really opened my eyes. Definitely a really good critique of the selfishness that has overtaken Gen X/Y, self included.

    “Finally, there’s been a broader cultural shift away from a child-centric understanding of romance and marriage. In 1990, 65 percent of Americans told Pew that children were “very important” to a successful marriage; in 2007, just before the current baby bust, only 41 percent agreed.”

    Damn :-(

  • Just1Z

    @NK
    sorry, I only just saw your comment, I wasn’t ignoring you.

    yes it is sad for the kid (i.e. parent), her kid and society. I have heard girls from broken homes express the opinion that if they have a kid, “it will have to love me”. which is another whole level of sadness, as well as not being true as it grows up.

    perhaps saddest of all is that for some of these women, it is objectively true that this is their best option in life. it tends (or used to) correllate with the old mining / industrial / ship building heartlands in the UK. these areas have never recovered from the pits closing and smelters being shutdown. South Wales (the Valleys), the north east of England, Scotland were all hard hit and have never really bounced back. after three generations of some families being unemployed, it is an ingrained way of life to live of benefits.

  • Ted D

    My second LTR mate had many gay friends, and I remember hearing them call hetero couples “breeders” all the way back in the early 90′s. I remember commenting on how rude a term it was, and they looked at me like I had farted in Church!

    I don’t like the term for many reasons, but it doesn’t surprise me in the least that it has been adopted by the “fabulously married without kids” crowd at all. We spend far more time bashing each other with slurs than working together to get stuff done. And that is largely why we are in such a sad state here in the U.S.

    For a country that seems to be very stuck on “rugged individualism”, we spend much of our time playing group politics.

  • JP

    “I request that you do not discuss female sexuality as “flawed,” as it inevitably leads to the same old same old unproductive debate.”

    This may be some of the problem here, historically and culturally speaking. A fascinating portrait of some of Saint Augustine’s thoughts. He seems to have been a bit unhappy that he has a high sex drive:

    From Wikipedia:

    “Augustine of Hippo ( /ɒˈɡʌstɨn/[1][2] or /ˈɔːɡəstɪn/;[2] Latin: Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis;[3] 13 November 354 – 28 August 430), also known as St. Augustine, St. Austin,[4] or St. Augoustinos, was bishop of Hippo Regius (present-day Annaba, Algeria). He was a Latin philosopher and theologian from the Africa Province of the Roman Empire and is generally considered as one of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time. His writings were very influential in the development of Western Christianity and translations remain in print.

    Lust

    Here we can see the theoretical resolution of the struggle documented in Confessions: that proper love exercises a denial of selfish pleasure and the subjugation of corporeal desire to God.
    To the pious virgins raped during the sack of Rome, he writes, “Truth, another’s lust cannot pollute thee.” Chastity is “a virtue of the mind, and is not lost by rape, but is lost by the intention of sin, even if unperformed.”[130][131]
    Augustine viewed erections themselves as involuntary: at times, without intention, the body stirs on its own, insistent; at other times, it leaves a straining lover in the lurch.[132]
    In short, Augustine’s life experience led him to consider lust to be one of the most grievous sins, and a serious obstacle to the virtuous life.

    Views on Women

    Augustine’s view of sexual feelings as sinful impacted his view of women. For example he considered a man’s erection to be sinful because it did not take place under his conscious control. His solution was to place controls on women to limit their ability to influence men: “Thus the woman, but not the man, should veil herself to prevent her from causing this sinful response in the male.”[133]
    Augustine viewed women not only as threatening to men, but also as intellectually and morally inferior:
    “It is the natural order among people that women serve their husbands and children their parents, because the justice of this lies in (the principle that) the lesser serves the greater . . . This is the natural justice that the weaker brain serve the stronger. This therefore is the evident justice in the relationships between slaves and their masters, that they who excel in reason, excel in power.”[134]
    “Flesh stands for the woman,” he said, “and the spirit for the husband…”[135]
    “He concluded that ‘the serpent, which represents the enticement to disobedience to God and the preference for selfish desires, first approached Eve, because as a woman she had less rationality and self-control and was closer to the ‘lower’ or female part of the soul…”[136]
    “Adam, on the other hand, was equated with the higher, superior part of the human soul. In fact, his choice to eat the forbidden fruit along with his wife was viewed by Augustine as “an act of kindly companionship, lest she be left alone outside paradise”[137]
    “In other words, Augustine believed that sin entered the world because man—the spirit—did not exercise proper authority over the woman—the flesh.”[138]

    Augustine balanced his teaching philosophy with the traditional Bible-based practice of strict discipline. For example, he agreed with using punishment as an incentive for children to learn. He believed all people tend toward evil, and students must therefore be physically punished when they allow their evil desires to direct their actions

  • JP

    I seem to recall that one of the issues in the Roman world was that of control.

    That is to say, that the ideal was to be in complete control of yourself at all times.

    I really don’t have time to dig it up, though.

  • Ted D

    Susan – I think perhaps the problem is that most of us that read Rollo and other ‘sphere blogs but comment here are NOT the hardline guys you think we are. Since we are using words here that aren’t “legit” (meaning no definition in a dictionary to be found) the problem is interpretation. Just because Mike C thinks the word “dork” means one thing, doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with his view. I might agree to the premise of what a “dork” is, but perhaps I disagree with the exact details of what makes one a “dork”.

    The same can be said for FI, in that I firmly believe there IS indeed a very female outlook driving much of our society, I don’t know for sure that it is due to “flawed” female nature in the least. There is no “flaw” if it is natural, it simply exists to be managed like any other biological need. (Need to eat, sleep, breath, etc.) But simply bring it to light should NOT be seen as an attack on women, any more than men should feel attacked when the subject of “sexual variety” comes up.

    Thing is, most men seem to be aware of this, yet most women are not. I don’t take it personally if someone cracks a Polish joke. I don’t take offense when I hear “men are pigs” come from some womans mouth. In fact, it usually causes me to chuckle.

    There is nothing wrong with looking at what drives you with an objective view, and admit that in some cases your biology is less than optimum for a good long-term outcome. In fact, if you WANT a good long-term outcome, I’d say it depends largely on your ability to identify those traits and nullify them somehow. That is, as a man, I need to know that my body craves sexual variety, and if I have any hope of staying faithful in marriage, I will need to actively find ways to either control it, or to vent it within the rules of our relationship.

  • deti

    Susan:

    I think you’re incorrect in claiming Rollo or his blog advocates the position that female sexuality is flawed or defective. Rather, female sexuality is what it is. It seeks the best man for reproduction and provision and marriage. Hypergamy (whatever anyone defines it to be) is a defining feature of female sexuality. And no one seriously argues there are any effective restraints on female sexuality other than those women place on themselves. The point is that many men don’t understand what female sexuality really is or how it works, or even that it currently has primacy in our culture.

    What’s routinely addressed in the more serious manosphere blogs, leaving aside MRA blogs, is not trying to change female sexuality; but rather learning the truth about it. Once truths about female sexuality are learned, a man can learn to live with a woman (women) and better manage his love life, sex life and/or marriage. I think what you’re objecting to is that those truths (which are also exposited on widely at Vox’s AlphaGame) don’t always paint women in the most flattering light, but this is to be expected as the less seemly sides of sexuality of both men and women are discussed candidly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I think you’re incorrect in claiming Rollo or his blog advocates the position that female sexuality is flawed or defective. Rather, female sexuality is what it is. It seeks the best man for reproduction and provision and marriage. Hypergamy (whatever anyone defines it to be) is a defining feature of female sexuality.

      WADR, I think your own views on female sexuality are extremely inaccurate and appear to be based on ignorant internet rantings of disappointed males rather than real understanding or scientific knowledge. Much of what you claim regularly can easily be disproved. The “alpha widow” and “carousel watcher” memes are two such examples.

  • deti

    More to the point:

    Female sexuality is not flawed or defective. The females in which it resides are imperfect human beings who make mistakes along the way.

    The society in which female sexuality expresses itself and manifests itself is flawed, defective and dysfunctional. That society has allowed female sexuality to run rampant with no restraints whatever, while simultaneously hamstringing, restraining and penalizing male sexuality.

    That’s what is being pointed out, I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      @deti

      That society has allowed female sexuality to run rampant with no restraints whatever, while simultaneously hamstringing, restraining and penalizing male sexuality.

      This is worthy of debate certainly. What is unacceptable, in my view, and therefore on my blog, is any suggestion that provoking anxiety and jealousy in a loving relationship is appropriate or helpful, for example. Or that a man should DQ a woman who doesn’t put out by date 3. Or that it is selfish of a woman to wear her hair short or present herself in a way that makes her feel sexy without regard to how males feel about her appearance.

      Re the demonization of male sexuality, I agree that there are examples of this in society, including a presumed guilty culture on college campuses re sexual assault. At the same time, we have frats chanting “No means yes! Yes means anal!” in front of the Yale Women’s Center. In truth, male sexuality is as out of control today as female sexuality is, it’s just that most men don’t benefit. And that’s what I think drives most of the male resentment – as Mule and Slumlord have pointed out.

  • SayWhaat

    @ HanSolo @ Olive

    Research pair finds global warming matched predictions from 1990

    phys.org/news/2012-12-pair-global.html

  • SayWhaat

    Uh-oh, the gender-war trio is back.

    *sigh*

    It has been 3 0 days since last accident.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Uh-oh, the gender-war trio is back.

      Thank you for sounding the alarm. I will disallow any further comments on the issue, and will refrain from further comments myself.

  • SayWhaat

    Susan – I think perhaps the problem is that most of us that read Rollo and other ‘sphere blogs but comment here are NOT the hardline guys you think we are.

    I think you think that.

    I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists.

  • SayWhaat

    Thank you for sounding the alarm. I will disallow any further comments on the issue, and will refrain from further comments myself.

    Haha, whoops, just as I was adding more fuel to the fire! :P

    No worries, I need to return to reviewing my firm’s contributions to my 401K plan anyhow.

  • deti

    “I think your own views on female sexuality are extremely inaccurate and appear to be based on ignorant internet rantings of disappointed males rather than real understanding or scientific knowledge. Much of what you claim regularly can easily be disproved. The “alpha widow” and “carousel watcher” memes are two such examples.”

    You’re trying to deflect the communication from the issue we’re talking about to my credibility, or more accurately, your beliefs and opinions about my credibility, both of which are irrelevant.

    I can just as easily question your credibility by pointing out your views are being presented through the prism of a 57 year old married mother of two grown children who was educated at the toniest schools, was raised on the coasts, and who now lives in the posh suburbs of a major New England city. That’s not the point.

    Do you disagree that hypergamy is a defining feature of female sexuality? Do you disagree that women seek the best men for mating and provisioning? Do you disagree that female sexuality really has no effective cultural or legal restraints? Do you disagree that unleashed female sexuality has presented problems in this SMP, for both men and the women you’re trying to help?

    Let’s address the issues

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      In answer to the questions you pose, I will simply say that I have written posts and many comments in the affirmative. The difference is the AWALT problem – which you appear to subscribe to. In fact, you have generalized and used the “all women” label regularly.

      My position is that all sexuality must be expressed within constraints that serve to keep society running smoothly. I agree that female hypergamy has been effectively unleashed – I see enormous variation among women in terms of how far they have run with that, with the vast majority happily pairing (or willing to pair) with men of equal status. The problem you perceive is observable in 15-20% of the female population*, and their male counterparts display unleashed gluttony for sexual variety.

      The exception fallacy, or perhaps we could call it the Minority Fallacy, is where you go off track. This leads to the arrival of conclusions that are erroneous, and which can produce no improvement to the SMP, as that 15-20% has no incentive to change its behavior. Meanwhile, you ignore the 80-85%, who are the people who need strategic support to change the SMP, at least for themselves.

      *Those with more than HS education.

  • Ted D

    SayWhat – “I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists”

    And I would counter that this is a VERY short sighted outlook. No different than many men are accused of by placing women in the “casual sex” vs. “marriage” pile without consideration for individual nuance.

    If you really think the guys commenting here are hard liners, I’d suggest you spend a week or so reading other ‘sphere blogs. It will piss you off, depress you, and make you think we are doomed as a species, but I think you will also find that most of the male posters here are FAR more reasonable.

    But, if you insist on catagorizing male regulars here as White Knight or ‘sphere douchbag, by all means put me in the douchebag catagory. I’d rather be an asshole than a well walked on doormat.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      I think you will also find that most of the male posters here are FAR more reasonable.

      I agree with you, in fact I think almost all of the male posters here are very reasonable. However, comparison to commenters on other blogs is not valid. If HUS commenters are even 10% as rabid, well that’s still fatal, ASFAIC.

      The most important point is that HUS is not a manosphere blog. What’s really happening is that some guys here cannot stand the male bloggers, and they see HUS as manosphere lite. That is not accurate, as I do not do the Red Pill here. This is why some recommended you and other guys start a new blog – because the gap between me and those men is a Grand Canyon of opportunity for voices of reason.

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    “I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists.”

    Curious as to why? Me specifically, don’t care much for others.

  • SayWhaat

    If you really think the guys commenting here are hard liners, I’d suggest you spend a week or so reading other ‘sphere blogs. It will piss you off, depress you, and make you think we are doomed as a species, but I think you will also find that most of the male posters here are FAR more reasonable.

    Not trying to be condescending, but I’ve been posting at HUS longer than you, and I was here when those attitudes were *very* prevalent in these very threads. Also, just because I consider you a “‘spherist” doesn’t mean I think of you negatively. There is variation of beliefs, but you are part of a contingent, no doubt.

    Props to Susan for successfully pushing for more civil dialogue. I find HUS much more enjoyable recently.

  • SayWhaat

    LL, my response to Ted will suffice for you as well.

  • deti

    I just want to point out: My comments at 394 and 395 were very civil and I attacked no one. In return I’m finding myself under personal attack now merely for pointing out my opinion. Disappointing, really.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      In return I’m finding myself under personal attack now merely for pointing out my opinion. Disappointing, really.

      How are you under personal attack? Is it your personal choices being criticized? Or the lens through which you view women and the SMP?

  • Damien Vulaume

    ““No means yes! Yes means anal!” in front of the Yale Women’s Center”.
    Oh boy….Really?

    Reminds me of what the radical feminists used to chant: “There are no frigid women, only bad male lovers.”
    If those two groups were the only representatives of both sexes, then the entire human race would quickly vanish amidst the flames.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      If those two groups were the only representatives of both sexes, then the entire human race would quickly vanish amidst the flames.

      Exactly, that’s a great metaphor! We can talk about extremists but it’s not helpful or relevant to the vast majority who are really looking for something not much different than their parents have (assuming their parents are happy and together). When we describe males of good character as would-be rapists and virgin females as wannabe riders on the cock carousel we really do a great disservice to everyone but those groups, who benefit from us tarring everyone else with the same brush and normalizing their behavior.

  • JP

    I need some more terms defined:

    “Red Pill” (got the Matrix reference. all women aren’t sugar and spice? Strippers can’t necessarily be trusted to be good mothers? Girls can be mean and nasty?)

    “Pedestaling” (what is this? ignoring flaws and declaring your girlfriend the “Most Awesome Wonderful Girl Ever and agreeing to serve them for All Eternity because they are the Embodiment of Human Perfection” or something?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      Very good on the definitions! I feel like we’re playing Wait, Wait Don’t Tell Me! That would actually be a great idea for a post. The only thing I would point out is that Pedestaling can and does occur long before girls become girlfriends.

  • Ted D

    SayWhaat – “Not trying to be condescending, but I’ve been posting at HUS longer than you, and I was here when those attitudes were *very* prevalent in these very threads.”

    Oh I’ve seen it myself, and depending on the subject I’ve BEEN that view.

    “Also, just because I consider you a “‘spherist” doesn’t mean I think of you negatively. There is variation of beliefs, but you are part of a contingent, no doubt.”

    Fair enough. But realize that your schema puts me and Doug1 in the same group, and although I may agree with some of the same ideas Doug1 does, we are practically polar opposites in terms of exactly HOW those ideas should be put to use.

    I’ll admit to a bit of a knee-jerk reaction from the original statement, but only because ‘sphere is a four letter word in these parts.

    Also keep in mind, that although I believe in Karma (what comes around, goes around) I am in no way a Buddhist. When it comes to such things, I usually don’t consider myself a member of any particular group just because I agree with some of their points. It isn’t that I am for/against the group, but I much prefer to pick and choose when it comes to ideas and form my own opinions. There are very few “identity groups” that I can get on board with, because to do so means adopting their views in entirety, and more often than not I have more differences with any particular group than similarities in ideas and thoughts.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    The Red Pill is the very black-and-white, good-vs.-evil simple world view from the first Matrix. It has instant appeal and sets up the conflict.

    The philosophy in the subsequent Matrix is deeper and more complex. Check this out:

    http://www.wylfing.net/essays/matrix_revolutions.html

    When
    Buddha sits on the Immovable Spot, where no force in
    the universe can cause him to do anything, he is divine.

    To illustrate that last point very clearly, I want to zero in
    on the specific act of sacrifice. We have the act
    portrayed in Revolutions in a certain way. Neo makes it
    abundantly clear that nothing at all is moving him except
    his own will to move. He is on the Immovable Spot. His
    sacrifice is pure because of why he is doing it. As a
    mental experiment, let’s rewrite some of Revolutions to
    see how things could have been different. Suppose that
    after getting his eyes burned out, Neo and Trinity have a
    quarrel because she thinks he’s too damaged to
    proceed. Stung by his words, Trinity goes outside the
    hovercraft to sulk. Neo says to himself, “I’ll show her,”
    manages to get the hovercraft on autopilot, and flies by
    himself to the machine city. Once there, Neo gets
    himself plugged in and fights Smith. He knows he can
    really make her sorry by getting himself killed. That’ll
    teach her! So Neo sacrifices himself.

    There’s not much divinity in that. It’s small and stupid.
    It’s the same act, but the reason it was done changes it
    from a beatific reunion with God into a spiteful, selfish
    stunt. There is Neo and there is the Merovingian,
    revealed.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “This is why some recommended you and other guys start a new blog – because the gap between me and those men is a Grand Canyon of opportunity for voices of reason.”

    It is being discussed, but at this point it is far too early to tell what will become of it. I agree that there is a chasm between HUS and most of the ‘sphere, and perhaps there is a niche there that needs to be filled. My primary concern is such a blog would not likely generate much traffic from women, and without their participation the entire thing is destined to become an echo chamber. I’m not sure how such a blog could be created that would promote the kind of mixed gender conversation we have here at HUS. I’m not sure its even possible, as the communication style of the average “male oriented” blog is rather hostile to female audiences.

    I’m unsure if anything like this would work. MMSL has a large female audience, but many of those are built in because they are “first officers” themselves. Do you think your target audience would be interested in participating in such an endeavor? If not, then the exercise may be completely pointless.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      My primary concern is such a blog would not likely generate much traffic from women, and without their participation the entire thing is destined to become an echo chamber. I’m not sure how such a blog could be created that would promote the kind of mixed gender conversation we have here at HUS. I’m not sure its even possible, as the communication style of the average “male oriented” blog is rather hostile to female audiences.

      Well duh! What you want is HUS! There’s no way around it – if the communication style is hostile or even too direct, women will not stick around. That means Playing Nice. If you want a male locker room, I do think there’s a real need for such a blog that does not have strong misogynist leanings.

  • Sassy6519

    She does have good advice, but it doesn’t go down particularly well. She admits to ultimately falling for a Wallace Shawn lookalike – making clear his SMV was way below hers – and later he gave interviews stating that the dumped her because she was a total shrew and not at all loving.

    This is exactly why I refuse to settle. He could tell that she felt “meh” about him. If I have to choose between being single and coupling up with a man that I feel “meh” about, I’ll choose being single. I’m not surprised that she was an unloving shrew towards him. She forced herself into a situation that she didn’t really want in order to not be alone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      If I have to choose between being single and coupling up with a man that I feel “meh” about, I’ll choose being single.

      Well, the response to Gottlieb’s advice was a big No Thank You! A woman today derives zero advantage from being with a man she feels meh about. Why on earth would she do that? It doesn’t make sense, there’s nothing to gain by it.

  • Emily

    >> “I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists.”

    Don’t forget Cooper, INTJ and HanSolo!!!! (And I’m probably forgetting somebody else, so my apologies to you, whoever you are!)

    >> “Props to Susan for successfully pushing for more civil dialogue. I find HUS much more enjoyable recently.”

    Co-signed.

  • Ted D

    “Don’t forget Cooper, INTJ and HanSolo”

    Wait, so I am a ‘spherian but Cooper, INTH, and HanSolo aren’t?!

    Is it an age thing?

  • Passer_By

    @ted
    “Is it an age thing?”

    Probably, since I’m in there too. Or maybe it’s an asshole thing. ;)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Is it your personal choices being criticized? Or the lens through which you view women and the SMP?

    Semantics really. “How are you under personal attack? I’m not attacking you personally. I’m just saying you have crazy views.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      “How are you under personal attack? I’m not attacking you personally. I’m just saying you have crazy views.”

      What is the correct way to suggest that someone’s views are unfounded? I don’t recall using the word crazy.

  • ExNewYorker

    “I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists.”

    “Haha, whoops, just as I was adding more fuel to the fire! ”

    Wow…Plain Jane could never compete with this level of performance art :-)

  • Ted D

    Passer_by – “Or maybe it’s an asshole thing”

    Well hell! Put me in the asshole camp for sure. I wouldn’t even try to deny it!

    I just find this amusing. Cooper and I have very similar outlooks as far as I can tell. INTJ is pretty close, with HanSolo probably being the most “moderate” of the three. What people don’t seem to realize is we arne’t different, we simply communicate our similarities in a different manner. I think the younger guys are far more polite, but I was more polite as a young man myself. At this point in my life, I’m about done with politeness for the sake of it.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy, Susan

    It seems to me that there are a sea of men between Gottlieb’s Mr. Perfect, on the one hand, and a Wallace Shawn lookalike, on the other. If that’s how far she had stoop (without falling in love with him for other reasons), then I’m guessing she’s just a naturally unpleasant woman whom even average guys couldn’t stand to be around.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: Gottlieb. I’ve actually heard about SMV differential being used more and more as a deliberate LTR strategy by exhausted and fatalistic 30something women. The women in question are now operating from the assumption that good-looking hetero single guys are either players or extraordinarily difficult and prone to micromanagement (“heterosexual male divas”, or “HMDs”), so the solution is apparently to insist on some kind of safe buffer zone between the female’s SMV and male’s SMV. This supposedly makes the guy more appreciative, causes him to try harder, etc.

    The woman who does this obviously risks being caught on the horns of a dilemma.

  • Passer_By

    @yorick

    “I also don’t understand why the poster known as “deti” goes and on about . . .”

    I don’t understnad why the poster known as yorick needs to refer to other posters as “the poster known as ___”

    “Children according to my married friends are also meh.”

    Oh, yeah? Well, your married friends suck. My kids RULE!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yorick = feelist = Michael = i don’t even remember all the names.

  • Ted D

    Yorick – “Sex with a beautiful, young woman is Nice, not gonna lie, but its not worth all the hassle.”

    For many men, it isn’t about sex or lack there of. For me, it has far more to do with moral and ethical issues than whether or not I’m getting my sexual needs fullfilled. As much as I may have been a blue pill guy, I really never spent much time in my life completely without sex. In fact, I went without sex for longer AFTER I got married than before.

    And, like children or not, they are mostly the only thing a person can leave behind that will last. (barring any major world disaster or something.) It is through children that you pass on a legacy. Businesses change hands, money gets spent, but kids keep on having kids, and through that process you get as close as we can to immortality.

  • Escoffier

    “Children according to my married friends are also meh.”

    Well that certainly settles that.

  • Abbot

    “alpha widow” and “carousel watcher”

    Does those coincide with “slut paradox?”

  • Ted D

    Susan – “If you want a male locker room, I do think there’s a real need for such a blog that does not have strong misogynist leanings.”

    Well this is why I believe it will need a variety of input. Obviously I’m not in any way a great embassator to bridge male/female relations. They do exist though.

    I simply don’t know if a “male locker room” would do much good. I’d be much more interested in something that promoted great intergender discussion. But it seems pretty clear from the reactions here that such an environment may be impossible to manage. More than anyone you should know that. ;-)

    I have no interest in being just another take on the same old same. But by and large women don’t want to step into this, and without them all we are is a group of men grumbling about how life sucks. You can’t have a debate if only one side shows up. And to be frank, none of this can be solved unless women participate. It seems the only way to get that is to figure out how to “sell” it to them as something that is good for them, which I find intellectually dishonest. Surely it WOULD benefit women, but the truth is much of what is necessary would look very much like a negative when compared to the current scheme we have.

    Women will have to want to help make these changes because they are the right thing to do, not because they feel good or serve their own interests. That is a tough sale for anyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      You can’t have a debate if only one side shows up. And to be frank, none of this can be solved unless women participate. It seems the only way to get that is to figure out how to “sell” it to them as something that is good for them, which I find intellectually dishonest.

      LOL, that’s my whole approach to blogging!

      I think the debate can happen if people are civil and respectful to one another. Jimmy H is doing it in this thread. No snark, no condemnation or condescension.

      I would also point out, as I have before, that the most volatile and accusatory speech tends to come from men of advancing years who have a major relationship trauma in their past. As deti has pointed out before, young women don’t want to hear advice that sounds like it’s coming from Mr. Deti who lives next door and drives a minivan. They also don’t want to hear advice from those who have love and lost. You can’t blame them.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Yorick
    “but these mansphere fellas seem to have gotten stuck in their early 20′s”.

    They’re not stuck in their 20′s, they just don’t understand how they all of a sudden find themselves, in their late 30′s being, among other things, sexually short changed with their wives, or whoever. There is one female biological logic in the long term, and a male one which is often quite different, and plenty other male/female contradictions. They failed to realize this early on, and are now stuck with it, hence the long rantings about women’s sexuality that should be the way THEY want it. It’s a bit as if they obstinately tried to put the last piece missing in the almost finished puzzle, only to find that they have the wrong piece. They can’t find the right piece missing, they’ve looked everywhere, so they want to “force in” the wrong piece they’re left with.
    Mmmh, I’m not making myself clear anymore, here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a bit as if they obstinately tried to put the last piece missing in the almost finished puzzle, only to find that they have the wrong piece. They can’t find the right piece missing, they’ve looked everywhere, so they want to “force in” the wrong piece they’re left with.

      Another brilliant metaphor! Damien, this is your gift!

  • Abbot

    “A woman today derives zero advantage from being with a man she feels meh about.”

    Similarly, these millennials derive zero advantage letting men know that for every meh there are hundreds of wows. There is no substitute for a change of scenery and the grass, in this case, really is much much greener on the other side…

  • Ted D

    Susan – “A woman today derives zero advantage from being with a man she feels meh about. ”

    True. The problem arises when said women feels “meh” about 99% of the men she meets daily. I would say that perhaps the problem isn’t the lack of quality men, but an unreasonable expectation of what a “perfect” man should be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The problem arises when said women feels “meh” about 99% of the men she meets daily. I would say that perhaps the problem isn’t the lack of quality men, but an unreasonable expectation of what a “perfect” man should be.

      Agreed, which is why I’m always saying throw away the stupid checklist. Has to know about wine? No denim couch? No pleated pants? No American car? Really?

  • Ramble

    It’s interesting, I just saw (on TV) Lori Gottlieb give a speech at the Aspen Ideas Festival and she seemed fairly reasonable. Granted, that does not really mean anything.

  • Ramble

    I’ve actually heard about SMV differential being used more and more as a deliberate LTR strategy by exhausted and fatalistic 30something women. The women in question are now operating from the assumption that good-looking hetero single guys are either players or extraordinarily difficult and prone to micromanagement (“heterosexual male divas”, or “HMDs”), so the solution is apparently to insist on some kind of safe buffer zone between the female’s SMV and male’s SMV. This supposedly makes the guy more appreciative, causes him to try harder, etc.

    Bastiat, I had trouble understanding what you were saying here (which is unusual), could you rephrase it or dumb it down?

  • Abbot

    “The problem arises when said women feels “meh” about 99% of the men she meets daily.”

    Do any of these men care? These women are more likely than other women to carry a host of traits unworthy for commitment. Relishes in emotional porn, consumes multi penis belonging to “qualified” bidders and marinates in feminism. Any takers? Hmmm? Who exactly is driving the bus here?

  • Ion

    Ted D, perhaps this is where confusion comes in?

    ” But realize that your schema puts me and Doug1 in the same group, and although I may agree with some of the same ideas Doug1 does, we are practically polar opposites in terms of exactly HOW those ideas should be put to use.”

    How do you feel about women embracing *some* ideals of radical feminism and disagreeing only on semantics?

    I don’t care if radfems vaguely agree about some topics (the end of domestic violence and sex trafficking). Because I actively choose to distance myself from these women.

    Starting off with “radical feminists are definitely correct about most things, I only disagree with them on where society should go” automatically puts me in the group with radical feminists. Since I disagree with their core mission, and most of their issues, I seek out other allies instead.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Okay I’m in need of a serious global warming break, but just wanted to respond to this:

    Yet a high % of “global warming” believers are also opposed to nuclear power, which tends to make one think that their true agenda is something other than CO2 reduction.

    Yeah a lot of environmentalists are like hypocritical blind sheep; they detest anything that looks remotely “scary and polluting,” while simultaneously listening to their iPods and enjoying their air conditioning.

    But this global warming believer definitely supports nuclear. The way I see it, we can’t wean ourselves off fossil fuels in a timely fashion without it.

    Ion,

    I don’t know about that, all I know is that when the average middle class “American” family consumes as much as 30 Kenyans (and what? 15 Indians, 30 Guatemalans?), etc., then telling the third world to stop making children is hypocritical, and borders on Eugenics.

    Oh yeah, totally agree. As I pointed out to INTJ, carrying capacity is a function of both the number of individuals in a population AND the average rate of consumption of each individual. Plus, Kenya has a much higher infant mortality rate than the U.S., so it’s silly to just look at birth rate and freak out about overpopulation.

  • Ramble

    I view all guys commenting here (with the exception of Megaman, David Foster, and JP) as de facto ‘spherists.

    I love it.

  • Ramble

    they detest anything that looks remotely “scary and polluting,” while simultaneously listening to their iPods and enjoying their air conditioning.

    And live in the suburbs where they HAVE to drive everywhere, and buy new construction (which is eco friendly of course), and they would never eat tripe and trotters (while they support the idea of utilizing the whole animal, organ meats and other “off” cuts are just icky), and, as you said, they own tons of stuff manufactured in China in the worst factories, etc. etc.

    While I believe that their is a lot of value in understanding and improving our environment, “Environmentalism” all too often acts as one more modern religion for the left. A modern religion that enables them to feel morally superior.

  • JP

    @Olive:

    “But this global warming believer definitely supports nuclear. The way I see it, we can’t wean ourselves off fossil fuels in a timely fashion without it.”

    I’m not positive that nuclear works.

    I’m also not a fan of burning all of the oil in the ground.

    I can’t figure out whether we are entering a world without air conditioning / iPads.

    For now, I’ll go with Grantham until I get better information.

    http://www.gmo.com/websitecontent/JG_LetterALL_11-12.pdf

  • Ramble

    Agreed, which is why I’m always saying throw away the stupid checklist. Has to know about wine? No denim couch? No pleated pants? No American car? Really?

    Susan, I am on board with about 98% of your anti-checklisting…however, we should start telling both sexes that it is possible that the opposite sex may have a point about some things.

    For instance, the Denim Couch…it reminds me of that scene from the 40 Year Old Virgin where Seth Rogen and Paul Rudd freak out that Steve Carrell is about to introduce the adult woman to his toy infested home. Everyone should have there hobbies, but we should also understand that outward appearances matter. And if you are a guy hoping to follow the Jimmy Hendricks mode of finding a quality woman, then, there is a good chance that you may want to rethink the Denim Couch.

    Granted, there are a lot of factors that play into how this came to be (i.e. if you are a guy and you can not afford to have a family until you are, say, 30, then it is not that unreasonable that you pursue more adolescent interests in the meantime.)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    A bit late but…

    Just the same, I’m not convinced that continuous population growth should be a goal.

    Is not continuous people still die, heck there are places were the life expectancy is in their 40′s…I think the disconnect in our positions is that you look at the USA and I look at the world as a whole. Since many of my friends married men from around the world I got many reports of how many people checking out of childrearing affects a community, trust me you don’t want to see the day when schools have to close because there are not enough kids to teach in the near vicinity.

    It will be interesting if there is some genetic component that contributes to people consciously wanting (more) kids and that this will be chosen for once more universal (male and female) birth control is available.

    I suspect as much. I also would go in a limb and guess that the unrestricted group is probably less inclined to want the fruits of the all the sex they are pursuing. Paternity abandonment in my country is so common that most women plan ahead for when their men will leave them for a new woman and they usually divorce both wives and kids. Heck I know men that rather go to jail than pay alimony and this is alimony that is definitely used on the kids no the new beau but for them kid out of sigh kid out of mind and pocket, really sad.

    Also, spending 20 years+ raising kids so that they’ll hopefully take care of me for twenty years…where’s the glory in that life? The noble spirit etc etc.
    First don’t get me wrong I don’t think William owes me anything but being a good happy member of society I love him unconditionally I’m not looking at him as some piggy bank and I assure you that my parents didn’t though of us that way either.
    Just using the “cold rational approach” the childfree use. Most of them talk about not having kids as “the perfect solution to a rational person” there are plenty of holes in this and I think is good someone points them out. Not trying to convince you just showing that is a bit of a scam like the “have sex like a man and you will be happy” feminist scam. There are practical downsides to not having kids as well as to have them, if is chosen should be because is the lesser of two evils so to speak, YMMV.

    I’m not worried about sticking around for dystopia as a vegetable.

    You should read some Utopias, there is equal chance of any of them happening, Although I lean to the middle ground not as bad as dystopia not as good as Utopia but a mix of both, YMMV.

    The 2.5 children each family in the U.S. has is WAY more dangerous to the resources of the planet than a third world family with 12 kids.
    +1000 most people calculate the carbon footprint based on Western and First world standards, when in reality compared to the rest of the world the average first worlder belongs to the top 1% and consumes and pollutes accordingly.

    How many of us have Christmas lights running all night for christ sake

    I know people here that can’t sleep without some sort of light around the house (emergency lights addiction?) while I’m used to pitch black nights given saving power and lack of power and that is just one example.

  • Ion

    Olive “Oh yeah, totally agree. As I pointed out to INTJ, carrying capacity is a function of both the number of individuals in a population AND the average rate of consumption of each individual. Plus, Kenya has a much higher infant mortality rate than the U.S., so it’s silly to just look at birth rate and freak out about overpopulation.”

    Thanks for clarifying, I agree with you 100%.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “As deti has pointed out before, young women don’t want to hear advice that sounds like it’s coming from Mr. Deti who lives next door and drives a minivan. They also don’t want to hear advice from those who have love and lost. You can’t blame them.”

    I don’t blame them, but they are missing out on learning from someone else’s failure. Of course, this is the exact same problem a parent has with his/her children. These young women don’t seem to realize that someday they’ll likely be married to a Deti driving a minivan. It seems to me that knowing what Deti thinks today might help them avoid some major pitfalls, but it would require them to have a rather long-term view of their lives, including what they might want 10 to 20 years from today.

    Ion – “How do you feel about women embracing *some* ideals of radical feminism and disagreeing only on semantics?”

    Feminism didn’t get everything wrong by any leap of the imagination. There are some ideas from that side of the fence I can find agreement with. I certainly don’t DQ a woman simply because she thinks a woman should have the right to vote!

    “I don’t care if radfems vaguely agree about some topics (the end of domestic violence and sex trafficking). Because I actively choose to distance myself from these women.”

    But does being against domestic violence and sex trafficking make you a feminist? Agreeing with the concept of hypergamy certainly doesn’t make me a ‘spherist…

    “Starting off with “radical feminists are definitely correct about most things, I only disagree with them on where society should go” automatically puts me in the group with radical feminists”

    First thing, I don’t think I’ve ever personally said that the ‘sphere is right “about most things” at all. I’ve said that the ‘sphere has some good points that are often carried to extreme ends. If you feel that puts me firmly in the ‘sphere, well that is your choice. But again, it is not leaving much room for individual perception or logical conclusion.

    I don’t play favorites, and would be the first one to say that someone I despise hit the jackpot on an idea. Just because I don’t like them, doesn’t mean they are wrong by default.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      I don’t blame them, but they are missing out on learning from someone else’s failure

      I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’s true. I think that young women can learn from the Millennial 28 yo females I profiled in this post. I don’t think that young women can learn anything from your first marriage. Even if they could theoretically learn something, say about how men are raised in the U.S. today, lied to by women, teachers, etc., it wouldn’t resonate for them or be meaningful in terms of their own experience.

      I know a lot of the older guys here think that young women “need to hear” what they are saying, but as a parent of teenagers you must know that it is precisely that approach that sends them running. The very reason young women gravitated towards me in the first place is that I told them something they thought they could use. People come to blogs to get information and solve problems. If you can’t offer nuts and bolts “how to’s” you’ve already lost the audience.

  • Emily

    >> “Wait, so I am a ‘spherian but Cooper, INTH, and HanSolo aren’t?! Is it an age thing?”

    It’s also because you often turn the topic to Red Pill/Sphere issues (remember the Father’s Day thread?), whereas the younger guys are usually here to talk about love/dating/realtionships. For me at least, that’s the key difference between the “Sphere” vs. the non-sphere commenters. There’s some grey area in between, but as a rule, the Sphere people are here to push their agenda.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    “Children according to my married friends are also meh.”
    That says more about your friends than about children in general, just saying as a married mother of 1, so far.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Olive
    Oh I wanted to clarify that I don’t doubt Global Climate Change I just think Population is a more pressing matter because it will affect us faster, YMMV.

  • Ramble

    Anacaona, I have a hypothetical for you. Let’s say that you grew up on a different island, like Japan (and that you were Japanese). And, let’s say God came down from Heaven and told the Japanese that over the next 60 years, Japan’s population would drop from 127 million to about 40 million (and they would not change their immigration policies in that time) and then, with more space, an advanced economy and cheaper housing (lots of space, lost pf housing, fewer people, even if they did knock down a few building here and there) the population would begin to grow again…the population, starting in 2072 (60 years later), would grow from 40 million to, say, 90 million, and then stabilize. That is, it would hover between 70 million and 95 million for more than a few decades.

    How do you think the Japanese would react to this?

  • Ted D

    Emily – “It’s also because you often turn the topic to Red Pill/Sphere issues”

    It might be splitting hairs, but I tend to lay off the heavy Red Pill stuff until it comes up in conversation, at which point I’ll fully admit I jump in. I suppose I’m an accomplice though, and will admit guilty as charged in that case.

    “whereas the younger guys are usually here to talk about love/dating/realtionships. ”

    Thing is, I firmly believe that for men Red Pill knowledge is essential for love/dating/relationships. For that matter, I think it is essential for men AND women if the end goal is successful LTRs/Marriage.

    I’m beginning to see that the issue isn’t the knowledge itself, but how it is imparted. And my weakness here is that I have very little skill with delivering that knowledge in a format that isn’t offensive to most women. (mostly because I don’t get offended easily, and can’t for the life of me figure out WHY women get so easily offended by this stuff.)

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I don’t think that young women can learn anything from your first marriage. ”

    Sure they can! Don’t marry a guy because he looks good on paper. If you don’t feel it, don’t do it. ;-)

    “I know a lot of the older guys here think that young women “need to hear” what they are saying, but as a parent of teenagers you must know that it is precisely that approach that sends them running.”

    I may be lucky, but other than a few rolled eyes and the occasional “you’re too old to understand” comments our kids actually listen for the most part. I’d say that our girls do tend to dismiss me more often than our boys, but I assume that is simply the nature of the beast. I’m putting a LOT of effort into getting our kids to be logical and reasonable, and it seems to be paying off. (I certainly hope so, because trying to get kids to be logical is an awful lot like trying to herd cats!)

    “The very reason young women gravitated towards me in the first place is that I told them something they thought they could use. People come to blogs to get information and solve problems. If you can’t offer nuts and bolts “how to’s” you’ve already lost the audience.”

    This makes sense. I guess my problem is I’m more interested in the abstract issues behind those nuts and bolts than the actual plan of action. Truth is, that’s how I roll in most things. I like project management because I can spend my time looking at the big picture, and simply assign the “nuts and bolts” part to people that can do a far better job than me. I push the general direction, and allow others to figure out how to put that direction to action.

    Another reason why I might not be a good bet for blogging. LOL

  • Ion

    Ana

    “+1000 most people calculate the carbon footprint based on Western and First world standards, when in reality compared to the rest of the world the average first worlder belongs to the top 1% and consumes and pollutes accordingly.”

    Exactly.

    And I think Captain Planet would agree, sterilizing third world women so the West can continue consuming most of the planet’s resources is not a very neighborly solution….. Plus it won’t work, if say, you’d need to sterilize 50 million women elsewhere to make up for what 300 million Americans consume over the holiday season. :-P

  • Emily

    @ Ion,

    Yay for the Captain Planet reference! I used to love that show! :D

  • Ion

    Ramble

    “While I believe that their is a lot of value in understanding and improving our environment, “Environmentalism” all too often acts as one more modern religion for the left. A modern religion that enables them to feel morally superior.”

    +1

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,

    While I believe that their is a lot of value in understanding and improving our environment, “Environmentalism” all too often acts as one more modern religion for the left. A modern religion that enables them to feel morally superior.

    Haha you don’t have to tell me twice. Two summers ago I worked on a small organic farm with two hippies, one who didn’t wear deodorant or sunscreen because “the chemicals will give me cancer.” I regularly wanted to bang by head against the wall. And point out that, in fact, the sun will give you cancer if you’re outside working without sunscreen all day.

  • Ion

    Hahahaa Emily :-)

    Definitely know the whole intro by heart, including the rap at the end……

  • Emily

    Haha awesome. My sister and I used to run around the house with little plastic cereal box rings pretending to be the Planeteers. :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Ramble, my bad—the post was unclear. I meant that I was hearing women pre-emptively disqualifying men for being “too hot” or “too attractive” at male SMV levels that I would not have considered particularly intimidating in the past.

    In other words, maybe an SMV-9+ man could have been considered dangerous, high flight risk, etc. for LTR purposes in the past, but in the last year or so I’ve heard this being said about SMV-7 men as well (disclaimer: I’m ranking these guys as SMV-7 or so—it’s subjective).

    The women who were running these filters apparently felt that they needed to be superior to their male counterparts by a full 2 or more points of SMV (*my rankings again*) in order to have men who were willing to put in appropriate amounts of work within the relationship. I am not sure what this “work” entailed—maybe they just wanted equality, maybe they wanted relatively docile and obedient men.

    My speculation would be that this is simply another inevitable manifestation of increasing female intrasexual competition.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      My speculation would be that this is simply another inevitable manifestation of increasing female intrasexual competition.

      Definitely. Hence the term “boyfriends are ugly.” (The guys always get very upset when I mention this term. It is meant to be hyperbolic and somewhat self-deprecating for women.) The truth is that often the best looking men are not interested in monogamy, especially at college age. No mystery there. Therefore, girls with very high SMV will sometimes, not always, enter a relationship with a man a couple of points lower than they are. FTR, this does not mean the girl is not attracted – I have witnessed these relationships up close and they work on all levels. This is one of the reasons that I believe female attraction triggers are malleable. Perhaps this varies by individual.

  • Yogini_Hope

    I had to read through this blog post a couple times before I was really sure how I felt about it. I fall just outside the demographic this post is addressing. I think for the younger women who do want to eventually be stay at home moms this is great advice. Even though I fall outside the demographic this post is aimed at, I do feel Susan has some really sound advice when it comes to balance, prioritizing relationships, going for the long term, and filtering the good prospects from the not so good. I was reading another blog post recently about balancing career and relationships that might also be helpful and actually backs up what Ssusan is saying too.

    http://yogaandlove.com/the-love-of-your-life-or-having-your-dream-job/

    I feel as young women we are struggling to balance everything and often it feels like a choice between having a fabulous career or having a fabulous family. At this point in my life I’m learning how I can manage both. But having the great family life will require sacrifices in my career, and I’m okay with that because I feel like having a life with balance is a great choice for me. Right now it’s about career, but if the oppourtunity for a great relationship and family comes along I will gladly let career take less priority. I think Susan has great advice. She gives young women a way to manage both while also being realistic. I was I had advice like this when I was in my 20s instead of being told I needed to pick one or the other.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Bastiat Blogger wrote:
    The women who were running these filters apparently felt that they needed to be superior to their male counterparts by a full 2 or more points of SMV (*my rankings again*) in order to have men who were willing to put in appropriate amounts of work within the relationship. I am not sure what this “work” entailed—maybe they just wanted equality, maybe they wanted relatively docile and obedient men.

    My speculation would be that this is simply another inevitable manifestation of increasing female intrasexual competition.

    Ermph… just what I need. I hope this is limited to New York City.

  • Ramble

    I was hearing women pre-emptively disqualifying men for being “too hot” or “too attractive” at male SMV levels that I would not have considered particularly intimidating in the past.

    That’s interesting.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes
  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    +1000 most people calculate the carbon footprint based on Western and First world standards, when in reality compared to the rest of the world the average first worlder belongs to the top 1% and consumes and pollutes accordingly.

    Yup, it’s the Pareto distribution at work once again.

    Also, it should be noted that the Chinese population as a whole does not actually create a larger environmental footprint than the American population. Much of the environmental footprint in China is due to export manufacturing of products consumed by Westerners.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    How do you think the Japanese would react to this?
    Is this God Amaterasu? ;)
    Also it depends of if the Japanese considers that many people family lines won’t be among the ones ready to repopulate once the crisis is over or not.
    And if this God has enough convincing evidence that after the crisis things will improve and no just go down in an spiral till 0 population growth.
    Also how bad the transition will be? Is it worth it to let a huge chunk of the population fall in despair just to wait it out for better times?
    Short answer: Needs more info.

  • INTJ

    @ Emily

    @ Emily

    It’s also because you often turn the topic to Red Pill/Sphere issues (remember the Father’s Day thread?), whereas the younger guys are usually here to talk about love/dating/realtionships. For me at least, that’s the key difference between the “Sphere” vs. the non-sphere commenters. There’s some grey area in between, but as a rule, the Sphere people are here to push their agenda.

    Yeah this makes sense. Us younger commenters are here because we want relationship success. Sure, we’re aware of the big picture issues such as the economy, feminism, immigration, religion, etc., and on a societal level these issues are interrelated with relationship issues. But we’re not trying to fix society, just navigate it. And even if the deck is stacked against Millennials, especially male Millennials, most of the young guys here have been able to navigate society with reasonable success – except in the area of relationships.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yay for the Captain Planet reference! I used to love that show!

    We are the Planeteers you can be one too!
    My only problem with the show is that the Latin one Ma-Ti got the lame power: Heart :( the white man screwing us again! :D

  • J

    I don’t understnad why the poster known as yorick needs to refer to other posters as “the poster known as ___”

    Fan of the artist formerly known as Prince?

    Children according to my married friends are also meh.

    I’m afraid your friends are assholes.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also PJ alert!

  • Lokland

    @olive

    “wo summers ago I worked on a small organic farm with two hippies, one who didn’t wear deodorant or sunscreen because “the chemicals will give me cancer.” I regularly wanted to bang by head against the wall”

    ohh god.

  • Passer_By

    @Ion

    “I don’t know about that, all I know is that when the average middle class “American” family consumes as much as 30 Kenyans . . .”

    My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.

      ROFL

  • J

    My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.

    LOL

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.

    I have to admit, I looked at this for a good five minutes and thought “has his family never been to a restaurant, that they always eat so little?”

    Slow on the uptake…

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Passer by.
    “My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.”
    Lol. So canibalism has not been banned yet in America?
    Someone should tell that VD about it.

  • doomwolf

    @Passer_By

    What sauce do you prefer? White or red? :P

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    Also PJ alert!

    If you’re referring to Yogini_hope, she isn’t PJ.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you’re referring to Yogini_hope, she isn’t PJ.

      She definitely is not! I’d hate to see all yoga lovers arouse suspicion!

  • JuTR

    NK@367

    On your comment about men caring for children, I have a couple to add.

    One of my good friends that I met when I was working the door at a new posh brewery is what he and I call a house husband. He is about 6′, dark hair, and handsome. She’s a 5’9 slim, brunette that I introduced to him when we moved to a new brewpub. He’s about as masculine a guy you could want, he and I took martial arts together for years, and he’s handy, strong, and well read. He’s worked gone to school for sports medcine and worked in healthcare, but he’s a little more of a dreamer than a do’er though. She’s smart as a whip, a little shy, but quick to laugh. She’s innovative, and she started her own business performing book keeping around her main job at a bank. They planned a child, and when their son arrived, my buddy stayed home to care for him, while she returned to work with a plan for self employment, almost a year ago now. Their kid is the happiest, healthiest, strongest, and most adorable child, and that is direct from my mom, followed by a stuttered exception for her own 4 boys.

    I don’t know how it will work in the future, but he does enjoy it a lot, but he’s noticed how housework that a husband is expected to do does fall on him. So, in addition to the mowing, car maintenance, animal husbandry (lolz at his chickens) , and home improvement projects, he also has the cooking, cleaning, childcare. She pretty much works all the time, except for some serious mom time on the weekends. It’s a lot of work, but they are making it work.

    Another good friend, who was also a bouncer (I met him in 1995) is due his first kid in April, a daughter. He also met his wife when he was managing a bar in 2002. They moved to NY City to have adventures (he managed a hostel, she worked at a law firm), but came back to Maine to have children. They just bought a house, and he’ll stay home to care for his daughter, and he is just giddy.

    So it does happen, and people roll with it.

    I have two good friends

  • JuTR

    Oops, I started with the “I have two good friends” and started over, and forgot to delete it….

    Anyway, I have more friends than that, but those are the two that are doing or will be doing the primary care giver thing!

  • SayWhaat

    “It’s also because you often turn the topic to Red Pill/Sphere issues (remember the Father’s Day thread?), whereas the younger guys are usually here to talk about love/dating/realtionships. For me at least, that’s the key difference between the “Sphere” vs. the non-sphere commenters. There’s some grey area in between, but as a rule, the Sphere people are here to push their agenda.”

    This.

    (Thanks, Emily! :))

  • Ion

    “My family has never consumed more than one Kenyan in a single sitting.”

    Haha!

    Ana, heart is not an element, but when you think about it, it was the same as the movie The 5th Element (where it was love), so it’s not so bad.

    Not helping is it? lol :-(

    It would’ve been so cool if he had been metal instead of heart though.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I haven’t read all of the posts in this thread so I’m not sure if this has been addressed yet…

    A good question is why would these white collar, able to support a family type guys want to settle down with one of these career girls who decided to become mommys? I think a lot of guys these days are just starting to catch on, for a number of reasons, and the marriage rate is going to start dropping more and more in the next ten to twenty years.

    Seriously, the SWPL chicks from this article you cited may want to get off the independent woman track and pop out a few babies with a provider husband, but what skills do they have that warrant this investment from a man? Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m all for this approach when women do have “SAHM skills”, but I simply have to look around at Gen Y females and note that a vast majority would be terrible in this role. A lot of them are ball busters, sarcastic, can’t cook, don’t clean, constantly shit test (bc they need to in the office world), aren’t nurturing and worst of all, expect things to just be handed to them.

    If I get married I most certainly would want a SAHM, but finding one worthy of that is so damn hard these days, even for guys with game. Guy’s are starting to realize that it’s not worth it to have to grind at the office for 30-40 years when they essentially have a wench to come home to and aren’t appreciated for their efforts. I want to have a family eventually, but I would instead opt out of that life than to start one with a woman who is constantly going to challenge my authority and leadership as the man of a house.

    I think you have addressed these ideas before, but that seemed to be a glaring omission from this post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      I think a lot of guys these days are just starting to catch on, for a number of reasons, and the marriage rate is going to start dropping more and more in the next ten to twenty years.

      You may be right – the number of women who say they want marriage is falling as well. The percentage of male and female Millennials who want children and marriage is similar, with the females slightly higher.

      I simply have to look around at Gen Y females and note that a vast majority would be terrible in this role. A lot of them are ball busters, sarcastic, can’t cook, don’t clean, constantly shit test (bc they need to in the office world), aren’t nurturing and worst of all, expect things to just be handed to them.

      WADR, you actively seek out women like this because they sport the unrestricted sexuality that meets your needs.

      I want to have a family eventually, but I would instead opt out of that life than to start one with a woman who is constantly going to challenge my authority and leadership as the man of a house.

      Just a hunch, but have you been spending time on manosphere blogs? :)

      I think that women willing to cede authority and leadership to a “man of the house” are an endangered species. I believe they are called “Christian submissives,” and may be found in the Hinterlands, not sure where that is located.

      It strikes me that the women you spend time with and the women you desire could not be more different.

  • Ramble

    Also it depends of if the Japanese considers that many people family lines won’t be among the ones ready to repopulate once the crisis is over or not.
    And if this God has enough convincing evidence that after the crisis things will improve and no just go down in an spiral till 0 population growth.
    Also how bad the transition will be? Is it worth it to let a huge chunk of the population fall in despair just to wait it out for better times?
    Short answer: Needs more info.

    Well, as you could easily figure, teh question is not that realistic.

    I am making some assumptions here (and, in these assumptions, you can easily deduce my answer/guess):
    – Many Japanese feel that many parts of Japan are overcrowded.
    – There seems to be some really odd and extreme cultural reactions to the “modernizing” of Japan (i.e. few men being able to provide for a family and fewer women wanting to be traditional females)
    – The largest cities in Japan are VERY expensive (housing, that is).
    – If they found out that their population is getting smaller, this would not bother them, as long as it did not mean they would just wither away and die.
    – A smaller, but stable population, might be nice.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Once again, I may hit the bar scene every now and then, but I also have a panoramic view of the scene. You always seem to break me down like that, which is funny coming from someone who absolutely knows better. I met these types of Gen Y women when I was in school, and I still meet them now through social circles, sports leagues, work, happy hours, etc. This isn’t simply a bar fly phenomenon, it’s pervasive in the college educated crowed, especially the high achieving one.

    Also, I’ve always read many of the manosphere type blogs, and that sentiment is not something new from me. What I’m essentially saying is that most doses of femininity are lost on Gen Y females, and that makes it a losing deal for most men.

    Incentives drive people, so being the type of guy that these “won’t settle” women would actually want, what incentive would I have to marry and raise a family with these women? Being submissive isn’t a bad thing, although feminism would make one believe it to be. Ceding authority does not mean that I wouldn’t take my SO into consideration, as you well know. Why would I want to come home to a woman who constantly challenges me and continually shit tests, rather than someone loving, who knows how to take care of me and the family?

    In the SWPL population, which I run into everywhere, not just bars ;), I’d say 3 of 10 even have something close to a feminine personality, and that tells you nothing of their attractiveness. So by my own estimation, maybe only 1 or 2 in 10 women in this Gen Y group is worth investing in for a guy who would be able to provide the SAHM lifestyle. Then women wonder why there are “no good men”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      This isn’t simply a bar fly phenomenon, it’s pervasive in the college educated crowed, especially the high achieving one.

      By your own admission, you fish with “asshole” bait. You’re learning a lot about the women who take it, and your impressions do not surprise me.

      Why would I want to come home to a woman who constantly challenges me and continually shit tests, rather than someone loving, who knows how to take care of me and the family?

      There is a lot of space between submissive, cedes to male authority and continuous shit-tester. That’s what I think you’ve lost sight of.

      Of the two dozen or so women I know best – my focus groups – all but a couple meet neither description. I will grant that their degree of femininity varies widely, and I’ve written about this epidemic lack in the female population. Not only have we not taught our daughters to be feminine for two generations, we’ve shamed them for female behavior. “How to be feminine” is a very popular Google search term – many women would like to learn more.

      So by my own estimation, maybe only 1 or 2 in 10 women in this Gen Y group is worth investing in for a guy who would be able to provide the SAHM lifestyle. Then women wonder why there are “no good men”.

      I think you’re mixing apples and oranges there. Women wonder why there are so few dateable men, and it’s a fair question. The sex ratio for women is very poor and that’s a fact, not a reflection of entitled, bitchy behavior.

  • Ramble

    Susan, I have been saying this for a while: many, many girls are simply not developing the social and home-ec. skills to be desirable SAHM moms. In general, I find them to be not that nurturing, unfeminine and, seemingly, unable, or disinterested, in empathizing with men and their male perspective.

    Now, I often try to pepper the HUS comments section with examples of good and great women doing good and great things. And, more than a few of the female commenters at HUS are great examples of femininity, but, while they are not the exception (since I don’t think our situation has gotten that bad), they are definitely in a fairly small minority.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, I have been saying this for a while: many, many girls are simply not developing the social and home-ec. skills to be desirable SAHM moms.

      This is hardly surprising, as we have removed all vestiges of “finishing school” and home ec from curricula. That poses an interesting question – should a SAHM mom be June Cleaver, baking casseroles and sewing little sundresses for Janie? Or might she be some 21st c. version – one who approaches her SAHM role the same way she approached her career? I did the latter.

      My SAHM time was heavily devoted to direct interaction with my kids, taking them on outings, to the park, etc. I was extremely involved with volunteering at each of their schools all of the way through. In fact, I was President of the Parents’ Association twice, ran several Annual Fund drives, etc. IOW, I brought my career energy to a career as a mom, and I found that most of my SAH peers did the same.

      My generation of SAHMs gave 5 star service, aka helicopter parenting.

  • Jason773

    Also, while I’m harping, all I have to do is take a look at my roommate and his ball busting, big 4 accounting firm Jewess gf (it’s okay, I’m a Jew too. Happy Hanukkah!). He has flat out told me that he is jealous of the treatment he has seen girls, especially my ex-gf, give me. While he works 50-60 hr/week at a marketing firm, and hopes to someday be able to have a SAHM, I know for a fact that he thinks something is missing from his gf. She stays over once or twice a week, and I have never seen her cook for him, clean, do little cutesy things, etc. and more often than not I’ve seen her challenge him in front of me.

    Now, they have been together for a number of years, and already broke up once due to her unwillingness to put him before her career, but I can see why he just doesn’t call it quits. He has a sense that something is off, but I know that he can’t quite put his finger on it, and it’s not my place if I’m not asked for advice.

    What I think is going to happen is exactly what I’m talking about though. He is going to marry her, pop out a couple of kids, be expected to work a lot to provide a lifestyle that is a bit more extravagant than necessary and barely be appreciated for any of it because it is what he is ‘supposed to do’. Meanwhile, she clearly isn’t very nurturing, doesn’t clean, can’t cook (he cooks for them) and is not in my definition feminine. I wouldn’t blame him at all for tell her to buzz off, but that is his choice to make.

  • Sassy6519

    Also, while I’m harping, all I have to do is take a look at my roommate and his ball busting, big 4 accounting firm Jewess gf (it’s okay, I’m a Jew too. Happy Hanukkah!). He has flat out told me that he is jealous of the treatment he has seen girls, especially my ex-gf, give me. While he works 50-60 hr/week at a marketing firm, and hopes to someday be able to have a SAHM, I know for a fact that he thinks something is missing from his gf. She stays over once or twice a week, and I have never seen her cook for him, clean, do little cutesy things, etc. and more often than not I’ve seen her challenge him in front of me.

    Wait, if he is your roommate, what obligation does she have to clean? I can understand her cleaning up after HERSELF, but why should she clean up after him or you?

    It’s not her place.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s not her obligation.

    It’s also not his obligation to marry her.

    She doesn’t do nice things, just for the sake of being nice.

    Therefore, unworthy of marriage

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jason773 “I’m all for this approach when women do have “SAHM skills”, but I simply have to look around at Gen Y females and note that a vast majority would be terrible in this role. A lot of them are ball busters, sarcastic, can’t cook, don’t clean, constantly shit test (bc they need to in the office world), aren’t nurturing and worst of all, expect things to just be handed to them.”

    This is one aspect of the red pill that really upped my girl game when I internalized it. When I was younger I was not really girlfriend/wife material, because that description was me. I was so lazy, but I think I was also unmotivated because some part of me knew I was with the wrong guy.

    Around my mid-20s I started cooking a lot more (I always knew how to cook, just never wanted to put in the effort), being a lot more feminine in demeanor, and stopped trying to act tough (I was always bad at it; people would tell me how weird I sounded when I tried to cuss). That was also the time I realized how incompatible the ex and I were.

    I would say that the cultural messages to young women has really hurt this generation. I didn’t do any casual sex despite the strong cultural messages encouraging it, but I did the unfeminine demeanor thing because that was promoted to be “cool.” When I stopped, I felt much less fake and more congruent, like that was the way I should have been all along.

    Shortly after that, I met my husband. He asked me to marry him after living with me for just half a year. I cooked, cleaned, did our laundry, paid our bills, did our taxes, never demeaned him in front of others and never fought him. I was also very frugal and never asked for anything expensive. He’s the spender in our marriage.

    When we had our baby for the first few weeks I didn’t always have time to prepare his lunch (I had 1.5 hours of sleep max at a time), and his boss joked that he was going to join their ranks (they were often envious of his good-smelling food). The next day I went back to having his lunch ready. We also went back to our previous sexytime schedule as soon as we could.

    At least half of this I attribute to discovering the red pill. Another portion is due to my ability to delay gratification and be a good little worker/follower. Finally, my husband is really just that awesome that he inspires me to be as good as I can for him.

  • Abbot

    “why would these white collar, able to support a family type guys want to settle down with one of these career girls”

    Why indeed. It is not the end of men. It is the end of willing men.

  • Abbot

    Men will step up and they are now out there letting you know what its going to take -

    http://pinterest.com/guysonmodesty/

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    I actually know lots of women who have learned domestic skills on their own, especially with the aid of the internet (Youtube, Pinterest, etc.), rather than from their own families. God knows, my mother taught me to cook by telling me I was doing the cooking on Mondays and handing me some cookbooks. So even if they don’t have the skills now, they can learn them quite quickly thanks to information technology. I see Facebook events all the time where they share their skills.

    Unfortunately, these women all have wine and cupcake guts, which I cannot tolerate. C’est la vie. We all want that unicorn.

  • Abbot

    “if they don’t have the skills now, they can learn them quite quickly”

    Its all backwards. Sex skills before cooking skills…

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    On a positive note, a woman who cultivates the “domestic goddess” skillset and signals these skills effectively will have a major advantage in the SMP.

    Susan, I think the only traditional Swiss finishing school—the old “charm schools” that trained female members of the European aristocracy to be effortlessly skilled in social matters—that is still open is IVP. Perhaps society could use a modern one opened in, say, the Boston area…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Perhaps society could use a modern one opened in, say, the Boston area…?

      There would be no takers, I’m afraid. We already have “cotillion” dancing events and etiquette classes at the Ritz – strictly the Beacon Hill crowd, I think.

      As Mr. Nervous Toes suggests, I was self-taught in all the domestic arts. My mother didn’t enjoy any of them. I signed up for sewing classes, taught myself to cook from The Joy of Cooking, went to art stores and craft stores looking for projects. I’m still learning – I taught myself to garden 12 years ago. I’ve taught myself to knit, needlepoint, refinish and paint furniture.

      Now there are food, craft, and DIY blogs galore, and some of them bring in big bucks. Women gravitate to this stuff – if you don’t teach them growing up a lot of them will find it on their own.

      The key is to find a woman who enjoys the domestic nesting activities – rather than a ballbusting career woman.

  • Sassy6519

    I guess I just have a hard time understanding the implied assumption that the girlfriend in question was supposed to clean up Jason’s and her boyfriend’s place. I can understand her cleaning up after herself, especially as a courtesy to her boyfriend’s roommate. What I don’t understand is why she is seen as unsatisfactory for not cleaning up the place overall.

    If a woman wants to clean up a shared residence with a boyfriend/husband, that seems completely different to me than her cleaning up her boyfriend’s/Jason’s place. Why should she clean it? She doesn’t live there, and I don’t think she made an agreement with her boyfriend to take care of the cleaning/household duties. Why is it considered a strike against her, in this case? That’s what I don’t understand.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland, Olive
    ““wo summers ago I worked on a small organic farm with two hippies, one who didn’t wear deodorant or sunscreen because “the chemicals will give me cancer.” I regularly wanted to bang by head against the wall”

    ohh god.”
    ====
    Ha ha ha! I think we are united in annoyance and disgust! The hippies really *are* bringing people together. Just not the way they imagined. 8-)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I don’t have much grace or charm, but knowing how to give good neck massages and backrubs has made my husband who is prone to knots very happy.

    Sassy, if she stays at their place, then a little cleaning would signal that she has the “woman’s touch” a la Snow White cleaning for the seven dwarves. Bad analogy, but it’s not an obligation, rather a display that men enjoy.

    I believe it stimulates their caring instinct the way a hot woman arouses their sexual instinct. The combination of the two is very potent.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    LOL the shrieking harpies of Jezebel have already found Abbot’s Pinterest page and are trolling it. Shame, whoever put up that page has good taste.

    Still, this is an excellent example in action of how gender Feminism is its own worst enemy. What you have here is a fairly innocuous page and the hyperbolic reaction to it seems out of place. Any neutral observer can see it for themselves and make up their own mind. I haven’t seen any accusations of rape or rape culture (yet) but ‘slut-shaming’ has already been bandied about.

  • Jackie

    @Jason773
    “If I get married I most certainly would want a SAHM, but finding one worthy of that is so damn hard these days, even for guys with game.”
    ===
    Waaait a minute. Let me get this straight:

    You are a promiscuous “player” who sleeps around with unrestricted girls you picked up in bars. You already have a high count and you dumped your girlfriend who had only about 1/4 of your count for being “too high an N, ” which looks like hypocrisy from where I stand.

    You want to find a “worthy” girl to be a SAHM? Let me tell you, they exist, but their friends and families are steering them away from men like you as if their lives depended on it. They don’t trust men like you because they’ve seen how you’ve treated other people’s daughters and want something better than that for their own.

    Because it’s a two-way street: They also desire a worthy man of integrity and good character. You have a job, some people here like your looks (not Sassy, IIRC– sorry :( ) and you have had lots of promiscuous sex.

    Where have you demonstrated worth and good character? I am sorry if this comes across as harsh, Jason, but your position strikes me as delusional.

    Or, to quote the Talmud, We don’t see things as they are; we see things as we are. You live a life of easy virtue and seem surprised that it is reflected back to you. What you are putting out there is what you are receiving.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Sassy
    I will try to explain it. Is like we don’t expect a man to pay for dinner/get you a very expensive present if both work and earn their money but if he does it doesn’t he earns point for doing so? A woman that shows a bit of domestic skills, specially when she doesn’t, has to is earning points on the MMV side of the equation, and men don’t marry/commit just because of SMV, they need MMV as well to make the leap into commitment, does that sounds a bit more logical to you?

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mr. Nervous Toes,

    I haven’t seen any accusations of rape or rape culture (yet) but ‘slut-shaming’ has already been bandied about.

    From one of the comments:
    “Modesty is SUCH a slippery slope; it is so subjective. Which is why I personally think the concept is meaningless, and reinforces rape culture in a way that is incredibly damaging.”

    LOL.

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    Wait, if he is your roommate, what obligation does she have to clean? I can understand her cleaning up after HERSELF, but why should she clean up after him or you?

    It’s not her place.

    ADBG got it right. She isn’t obligated to do anything, but then again men aren’t obligated to marry women and provide so they can be a SAHM. The thing is, there are some women who actually enjoy doing said things, not necessarily the actual act, but the pleasure they get by treating their man nicely and taking care of him.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Sassy, if she stays at their place, then a little cleaning would signal that she has the “woman’s touch” a la Snow White cleaning for the seven dwarves. Bad analogy, but it’s not an obligation, rather a display that men enjoy.

    I believe it stimulates their caring instinct the way a hot woman arouses their sexual instinct. The combination of the two is very potent.

    That’s sweet and all, Hope, but it doesn’t really explain things.

    I can understand how a woman deciding to clean up a man’s place is considered a “plus”, but why is it expected of her? Why is she being attributed “negative” points for not cleaning up a place that she doesn’t even live in?

    I could understand if she and her boyfriend agreed to her being responsible for cleaning up the place, but no such arrangement has been spoken of.

    Is she expected to clean up the place simply because she is a woman and she is there from time to time? If they want someone to clean the place, why don’t they hire a maid? If they really want her to clean the place, why don’t they ask her to do so? I imagine such a request would be laughed at, which would be my response to, so that probably explains why they won’t ask her to clean for them.

    @ Anacaona

    I will try to explain it. Is like we don’t expect a man to pay for dinner/get you a very expensive present if both work and earn their money but if he does it doesn’t he earns point for doing so? A woman that shows a bit of domestic skills, specially when she doesn’t, has to is earning points on the MMV side of the equation, and men don’t marry/commit just because of SMV, they need MMV as well to make the leap into commitment, does that sounds a bit more logical to you?

    I get this, but it seems like Jason was attributing “negative” points to her for not cleaning. There is a difference between something being considered a “plus” while another thing being considered a “negative strike”, so to speak.

    In my opinion, it should break down like this.

    - Woman cleans = bonus/good thing
    - Woman cleans up after herself/doesn’t make a mess of another person’s home = value neutral
    - Woman does not clean up after herself in another person’s home = negative/ bad thing
    -Woman does not clean up after herself ever = very bad thing

  • Royale W. Cheese

    “going through med school, getting PhDs with the end-goal in mind of being at home with their kids by age 30.”

    This is completely unrealistic. What is the purpose of getting a PhD if the journey ends there? The PhD is preparation for a full-on leadership (or at least technical) career.

  • Jackie

    @On cleaning, cooking and nurturing

    Hmmm, this is really an interesting point– and thank you to all who brought up this discussion. (You, too Jason773! I was pretty mean to you in that last post, but I will not hesitate to compliment great points. :) )

    In my observation, a lot of girls assume the mantle of maid, cook and servant in the hopes that the guy will want to move in together and marry her. Many times I have seen the girl work her heart out, hoping that, somehow, she will be able to earn her way into his heart.

    We seem to be in danger of conflating femininity, home-making and servant-hood.

    I think that women should definitely demonstrate their homemaking skills in their own living arrangements. I think cooking for a BF is *definitely* important and a way to show love, care and affection.

    That said, it is really not a girlfriend’s place to be cleaning the guy’s apartment/home. Maybe to help and be nice, but not an expectation. That can lead to a very uncomfortable place that turns into exploitation. (Obviously, tidy up after yourself, particularly if you’ve been cooking, etc.)

    There is a difference between
    Being of service = Good :)
    Being a servant = Bad, Exploitative :(

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    No one is saying that she has to, but there are girls out there who do things like that. When I went to work and my ex-gf had off because she is a teacher, she would usually tidy up my room, leave a note for me, put dishes in the dishwasher and tidy up the bathroom (which she usually messed up though). Now, I never asked her to do any of these things, and never would demand it, but it was certainly noticed and appreciated, and you can bet that my roommate noticed it and thought about why his gf never has done anything remotely close to that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No one is saying that she has to, but there are girls out there who do things like that. When I went to work and my ex-gf had off because she is a teacher, she would usually tidy up my room, leave a note for me, put dishes in the dishwasher and tidy up the bathroom (which she usually messed up though).

      OUTRAGEOUS! Is she out of her mind? What a terrible strategy – you dumped her, lol!

      The idea of cleaning up a guy’s bathroom after a short period of dating in pure insanity. Tidy up your room? WTF. And what did you do for her, may I ask? If you say pay for dates, then my response is that you were buying sex and maid service.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    MNT: ” I haven’t seen any accusations of rape or rape culture (yet) but ‘slut-shaming’ has already been bandied about.”

    O ye of little faith! Check out the 458 pins page:

    “Celine Loup: modesty is SUCH a slippery slope; it is so subjective. Which is why I personally think the concept is meaningless, and reinforces rape culture in a way that is incredibly damaging.”

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    OTC at 520,

    LOL pretty sure we just quoted the exact same comment.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t think she is quite being ascribed negative points SOLELY for not cleaning. She also apparently doesn’t cute and doesn’t do nice things, and her “no cleaning” rule in addition to that just doesn’t communicate feminine virtue.

    I grew up in the Northern Suburbs of Chicago and for some reason I am guessing Jason may have gone to a high school not too far from me LOL. There quite a few pampered girls here that have not the slightest dollop of feminine beauty.

    They also like to wear sweat pants. A lot.

    Sweat pants communicate that you don’t give a shit.

    I do not know why I would invest emotionally in such women, although I am sure they think they are incredible girls who are going to dominate the world.

  • Jackie

    Also: If the guy’s really got a messy home, and you want to do something nice for him, you may want to spend a weekend *together* both working at getting it into ship-shape. Show him how– teach him your supah-secret techniques for getting stuff sparkling. :)

    I like this, the same way I liked how a guy I dated showed me how to change my car’s oil. Maybe I couldn’t do it very well, but at least I was learning.

    If you are both pressed for time and want to do something nice, hire a cleaning lady, take him out to get a massage or see something fun. Return back to clean home– ahhh! :D

  • Jason773

    Jackie,

    It’s a marketplace out there, plain and simple. I’m in the small minority of men who are desirable and will be able to provide for a family that has a SAHM. 84% or so of women cited in that article hope to be a SAHM. The math isn’t that hard, I have leverage.

    Also, like I said, I wouldn’t lie to a girl about my past if she inquires, and if she chooses not to be with me, then there is nothing I can do about it. But from first hand experience, my up side outweighs my blemishes in most female eyes. It is what it is.

  • Jackie

    @Abbott, Olive, OTC

    Is that Abbott’s Pinterest– the Guys on Modesty? Those clothes and pics are really cute!

    Abbott, did you do all that? I’m impressed! 8-)

  • Jason773

    Hope,

    I would also like to add that I can easily see why so many Jewish guys are now going after Asian girls. They see how demure, nurturing and sweet they can be, then compare them to ball busting Jewesses, and it isn’t even a contest. At NU the Jewish guy/Asian girl couple was extremely prevalent and will only continue to grow.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    High-five, Olive!

  • Jackie

    @Jason

    “the Jewish guy/Asian girl couple was extremely prevalent and will only continue to grow.”
    ==
    You mean like Tiger Mom Amy Chua and her nebbishy Jewish professor husband? ;)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    RWC! Welcome back.

  • Jackie

    @Jason

    “I’m in the small minority of men who are desirable and will be able to provide for a family that has a SAHM. 84% or so of women cited in that article hope to be a SAHM. The math isn’t that hard, I have leverage.”
    ===
    Jason, the kind of women you are seeking– many of them are dealing in an entirely different kind of currency.

    I don’t doubt that you can find some girl desperate enough for your cash to overlook your promiscuity, but her family is going to be a whole other ballgame.

  • HanSolo

    @Jason773 and Hope

    While the specifics of what a man may like, the overall advice of dropping the bitchy, masculine attitude and being more feminine and doing nice things for a guy* you really like who likes you is so huge. Just being more feminine in general (not just around a guy you like) is one of the best pieces of advice for women. And this is not some difficult alchemy you have to master. Just even making a decent effort will go miles.

    When it comes to falling in love, most men (but not all) do want a women to be feminine. I personally don’t care if she cleans or not, and even cooking isn’t that big of a deal. But the underlying feminine attitude and bringing a certain kind of cheer and happiness into my life and just appreciating me is so huge. The demanding bitchiness will shut down a guy’s emotions so fast. Good guys, and even some players who at heart would rather find a great woman, are so used to the hard edge and not receiving that radiant feminine love.

    Many men are starved for affection and true appreciation. I’m not saying men DESERVE this but it will make you stand apart from a girl of similar or even slightly higher SMV–don’t think this will take you from an SMV of 5 to an MMV of 8 but it can definitely take you up a point or so. The guy who really is looking for a committed and good relationship will love it and you will have such an advantage over the hardened hearts out there that he’ll want to “lock it down” with you.

    *Note, don’t do this for a guy that is not into you or way out of your league or just wanting casual sex and then get jaded and think that guys don’t want feminine women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the underlying feminine attitude and bringing a certain kind of cheer and happiness into my life and just appreciating me is so huge.

      This is the REAL message women need to hear. Not that they should be cleaning the piss off the toilet seat.

  • HanSolo

    Meant to say:

    While the specifics of what a man may like MAY VARY

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jason773

    ADBG got it right. She isn’t obligated to do anything, but then again men aren’t obligated to marry women and provide so they can be a SAHM. The thing is, there are some women who actually enjoy doing said things, not necessarily the actual act, but the pleasure they get by treating their man nicely and taking care of him.

    I think you and I are talking past one another.

    Do you consider the fact that she doesn’t clean you and your roommate’s place a “negative” strike against her, or do you consider it to be “value neutral”? I think there is a great deal of difference between traits that are considered “pluses”, “value neutral”, and “negatives”.

    No one is saying that she has to, but there are girls out there who do things like that. When I went to work and my ex-gf had off because she is a teacher, she would usually tidy up my room, leave a note for me, put dishes in the dishwasher and tidy up the bathroom (which she usually messed up though). Now, I never asked her to do any of these things, and never would demand it, but it was certainly noticed and appreciated, and you can bet that my roommate noticed it and thought about why his gf never has done anything remotely close to that.

    I get this, but I think there is something to be learned here.

    Do expectations/desires match up between partners? I’m sure you enjoyed the fact that your ex-gf cleaned your place for you. Do you have a high expectation for the woman in your life to clean up after you? Does your roommate? If the answer is yes for him, wouldn’t it seem like a good idea for him to let his girlfriend know he has that expectation?

    I don’t understand why she was given “negative” points for not doing something that she isn’t obligated to do, and doesn’t know that there is an expectation/desire for her to do so. It’s an issue of compatibility.

    Let me give an opposite sex example.

    *Mary* likes it when a man cleans the gutters of her house. Some men she has dated in the past have cleaned them without her asking them to. Mary starts dating *John*. They date for 6 months, and John does not clean her house’s gutters a single time during their relationship. Mary considers it a negative thing that he doesn’t clean her gutters.

    Who is responsible for her displeasure? Is John not worthy of marriage/commitment because he doesn’t clean the gutters? Should she ask him to clean her gutters for her, or simply sulk about it to herself? Should she expect him to clean her gutters without asking him? Should she talk to him about it and attempt to make an agreement on gutter maintenance?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Being able to provide for a SAHM takes leadership, planning, horse-sense, and not really a ton of money. More people can do it, if they would dial back a few luxuries… I am certainly not even UMC, but my wife has been a SAHM for 11 years and is just starting to work and go to school part-time again, here in Boston. The idea that it’s impossible or rare just mystifies me.

  • Jackie

    OTC

    OTC, this is totally OTSubject, but was that picture (way earlier)you posted of the little boy and the Siamese kitty from your family? That was SOOO cute! :mrgreen:
    PS: Was this the kitty that just went to the Rainbow Bridge? :(

  • Jason773

    Jackie,

    It’s funny how NAWALT is used when it benefits your stance, but now All Women Are Like That if they happen to be low N and the kind of girl I’m looking at for marriage. Look, I’ve been with a virgin, a number of girls with N<5 and probably a few girls who have rode the entire offensive line of an Ivy League football team. So I've run the gambit and I don't believe I'm fighting a lost cause here. With the girls who have fit that criteria for me, other things weren't met, or things just didn't work out; oh well. It happens, but my past was not a deciding factor and I doubt that it will be.

  • Jackie

    @RoyaleW.Cheese

    Hey RwC! How have you been? We missed you around here. :)

  • HanSolo

    @Hope

    Awesome sharing.

    To any female lurkers or commenters, seriously read what Hope has written in 502 and 510 and find your own way of being really caring and giving and it will work wonders. Assuming, of course, that he’s into you and wants a relationship. Don’t do that kind of stuff for selfish cads that don’t do anything for you–sorry, but needed to point out the obvious since I hear girl friends in my life complaining that they did x, y, z and he still didn’t respond.

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    It is neutral at best, maybe a slight negative if the man in the relationship is handling his masculine end. My point was that my roommate started to ponder the question “why doesn’t my gf ever do things like that for me?”. I didn’t give two shits if his gf cleaned up, and I never would expect her to clean up my dishes or after me.

    And yes, I obviously hold a gf in my life to very high standards in a lot of areas, probably a lot more than my roommate. But my roommate is a completely upstanding guy (tall, decent looking, owns the house we live in at 25yo, hard working and with an average N of 7, so not a player). He doesn’t seem to quite know what his itch is, but I think he is starting to scratch the surface of it. He is probably starting to think “I’m going to have to work my ass off to provide for this girl if we end up having kids, and even now she doesn’t have the innate capacity to do little things for me like I’ve seen girls do for Jason”.

    It’s just something that gets a guy thinking is all, and it is put into the equation of whether or not to lock yourself down.

  • Jackie

    @Jason

    Hey Jason,

    I never said you were fighting a lost cause. I think as you change yourself — focus on being a good guy– you will find your luck change as well.

    Maybe I find your story affecting because it is one of my fears: Waiting and preparing for marriage… and ending up with a guy who decided to have his cake and eat it, too.

    That’s just me, though. I wish you luck on your odessesy and await the results with interest. ;)

  • SayWhaat

    Sassy,

    No one is saying that she has to, but there are girls out there who do things like that. When I went to work and my ex-gf had off because she is a teacher, she would usually tidy up my room, leave a note for me, put dishes in the dishwasher and tidy up the bathroom (which she usually messed up though). Now, I never asked her to do any of these things, and never would demand it, but it was certainly noticed and appreciated, and you can bet that my roommate noticed it and thought about why his gf never has done anything remotely close to that.

    I wonder if this is also a matter of schedules. IIRC, you work in finance, right? If she had more time than you did, it seems natural that she would “nurture” you.

    My boyfriend has a much more flexible schedule than I do, and cooks more for the two of us. (I’m actually at work as I type this.) I help clean after. Occasionally I cook as well, but normally he does it because:

    1. He has the time and inclination,
    2. He’s better at it, and
    3. He loves to cook!

    Naturally when I can, I try to do the same for him.

    But I would never expect him to do these things for me, and likewise…

  • Lokland

    @Sassy,
    Cleaning

    your value definitions are correct.

    The problem is if 90% of women are + value and your neutral you might as well be – in value.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    They don’t trust men like you because they’ve seen how you’ve treated other people’s daughters and want something better than that for their own.

    I think you’re assuming that he was duplicitous and caddish and that the daughters were deceived or not willing and equal participants. However, if they both agreed to it then you can’t claim he was deceptive. Now, you can not like his promiscuous behavior but you should equally call out the girls who have treated other people’s sons the same way.

    FWIW, I’m not saying anything specifically about Jason773 but just pointing out that you make it sound like these girls were victims and he was some sort of predatory vampire. I don’t think he is going around promising relationships to get sex and then flying away in the middle of the night while she’s asleep.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Cleaning

    your value definitions are correct.

    The problem is if 90% of women are + value and your neutral you might as well be – in value.

    Meh………

    I’m value positive in many other regards, so it balances out.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Han,

    If my daughter agreed to be part of a gangbang for 20 homeless men, I would still think she deserved better. Her agreeing to it is irrelevant.

    Similarly, if Jason came to my house dating my cousin, or if I saw them in the mall or whatever the hell Jason does, I would be very wary.

    No offense Jason, I don’t like to take chances with the people I care about.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Jackie, that’s my son with the new kitty, to heal his heart. My wife drove to NY on a road trip with him, to get the cat from a breeder. New kitty is called ‘Samson’.

  • Jackie

    @ADBG

    Hi ADBG,

    Hey, I read your post about religion and your thoughts on race on the “Penalty” thread and appreciated them very much. I would like to respond later, after giving it some thought.

    “She doesn’t do nice things, just for the sake of being nice.

    Therefore, unworthy of marriage”
    ===
    I think marriage “worthiness” has a *little* more to do with it than that! ;) I also think this so called “worthiness” is a two-way street. Men should be prepared to be worthy as well.

    Underneath all these marriage-worthy comments, it feels like the rumblings of fear. Specifically, the fear of being taken advantage of. Is this perception correct?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Oh, and not Siamese, but very close. You know your breeds. It’s a Birman, look at the white toes.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Sassy
    I think it went for neutral to negative when he saw that there are women out there as hot or hotter than his girl willing to do the cleaning, sexual competition change many positions,YMMV.

  • Jackie

    @HanSolo

    Han, here is an example of what I am trying to communicate:

    Jason has written of his ex-GF’s devotion to him: She cleaned for him, cooked for him, cared for him and nurtured him. She must have really loved him.

    And yet, he still dumped her for having “too high an N” when his was around 4x as much. If I remember correctly, she was begging him to reconsider the last I heard and broken-hearted by his dumping of her.

    This is the kind of thing that I mean by “others people’s daughters.” If my sister ever ended up in such a relationship, I think it would break *my* heart to see it.

    I guess I am more upset by the hypocrisy than the other unrestricted girls. And as long as there is HPV than can be passed to girls (without a sign of it in the guy) and the possibility of pregnancy, it will be hard for me to take a player’s side in all this.

    Promiscuity seems to damage women with *such* a greater impact (compared to men) that it’s very hard for me to feel like the sides are equal. I wasn’t there and never met any of these people, so it possible that I may be wrong, though.

    Thank you for giving me something to reflect upon, Capt Solo. I hope you had a wonderful breakfast date and get caught up on your sleep! :)

  • HanSolo

    @A Definite Beta Guy

    I’m not sure what your point is about the gang-bang girl willingly choosing that? I would wish she didn’t choose that but I’m not sure how that relates to the idea of two people having casual sex, where both are equally participating. If anything, I would judge both the willing gang banger and gang bangee as equally eyebrow raising.

    As to not wanting your sister with a promiscuous guy, that’s fine, but that wasn’t my point. My point was that Jackie was making it sound like the woman was a victim and the man a predator. If they are both willing then you can’t look at the guy as a predator.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    HanSolo, thanks, and I agree with you that those are things to be done for a man who sees her with relationship potential. They are the “beta,” comfort building equivalent for girls. So they still need to bring the “alpha,” which is good looks and attraction.

    My husband actually was not looking for a girl who cooked and cleaned. Those were “unexpected bonuses” for him, as he said most girls our age (we’re on the older side of Millenials) didn’t do those things.

    Jason, careful with the generalizations. I did say that when I was younger, I was just as bad as the rest. When I was at NU, I was on a diet of ramen and takeout, playing video games late at night and cramming papers in the morning. I had “potential” then to be good girlfriend material, but that was it.

    I needed my prefrontal cortex to mature a bit, mixed in with a dose of red pill and spirituality.

  • Sparrow

    Actually, I think doing nice things for the sake of being nice is one of the prime qualifications for marriage material whether you’re a man or woman.
    Before you laugh at me and tell me that I’ll just dismiss a kind man because he comes off as a “nice guy,” I don’t.
    The nice guys which I dismiss are the ones who are being nice because they expect to get something out of me, or because they’re trying to get me to do something. I’ve been on the receiving end of that enough times to try to avoid it. At one point I looked one dead in the eyes and asked, “was this a gift, or was it a loan? By which I mean, am I supposed to repay this favor with interest?”
    But genuine kindness? That willingness to give because you can and you want to give? Hot.
    And for the record? I thank my friends with homemade chocolate chip cookies.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    I agree that promiscuity has more negative consequences for women, both in terms of STDs and a woman looking slutty at a lower N than a man.

    It may be hypocrisy (in a sense) for a man to demand something in a woman that he himself does not possess. However, there are many things that each sex values differently. So a man values a lower N than the woman. What about the flipside, where a woman wants a man with a high enough N and even higher than her own. The breakfast date girl told me she wouldn’t want to have sex with a virgin and that if I were one that I would have to go out and bang 2 girls before her. lol Okay, maybe not really that analogous unless she wants him to be much higher than her N and wouldn’t have sex or date someone of equal N.

    As to Jason (with high N) wanting a low N woman. Everyone can make their demands and offer themselves in exchange and see if there are takers. As long as there’s honesty then people can decide if they want that or not. A woman may want a man that makes 2x what she does and won’t accept a man who only makes 1/2. Is that hypocritical? Would it only be non-hypocritical if she wants a man who makes the same as her? I think not. Now it could be considered unfair if she doesn’t bring something else of value to the table.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Jackie

    Hope you are doing well.

    You are partially right, men in general do not like putting in lots of investment for inferior results. Smacks of unfairness. Really feels like getting exploited, like the girl who is trying hard to be feminine in order to win over an obviously uninterested guy.

    Can’t enter a marriage if you’re thinking in terms of “am I getting screwed?” At least that’s my view.

    Now, personally? If you asked me 4 months ago, that probably would have been playing in my mind a lot: am I getting the short end of the stick here? And on the other end, am I not being nice enough, or am I asking too much?

    I had some uncertainty about my own relationship. The red pill sphere didn’t really feed it, I was just evaluating my own relationship and things were not entirely to my liking. So I communicated this to my SO and we made some changes. Making sure to take a “pulse” every week, making sure we are following through on plans, taking more time to ourselves, planning out weekends better to include more down time and more sleep and not just floating from activity to activity, a few other items.

    Things are lot better now!

    She’s a good girl, she does a great many nice things for me. Yesterday she bought a clay beer mug for me and painted it, which I thought was very touching. I also managed to drag her out to a friend’s b-day party and she was able to stay out later than she normally did, without complaint.

    We were planning on no family time, but my family decided to set up the Christmas Tree. I felt pretty bad going back on our agreement, but she didn’t complain about that either. I also watched a few episodes of Glee with her, so maybe that helped :P

    No major complaints, other than that she is in another state. When she leaves, it is very hard on both of us, though especially her. She’s always clingier, but now she has a hard time holding back her tears. That part makes me sad :(

  • HanSolo

    @Sparrow

    Mmmm, chocolate chip cookies!!! Do you want to be my friend? ;)

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    I would love for a girl I was in love with to get teary eyed at parting with me. I hope you can see the positive side of that and appreciate what she’s feeling about you and not feel so sad about it.

  • Sparrow

    @Han Solo.

    LOL!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Jackie:

    I’m actually in agreement with HanSolo here. Not all girls with low N are similar. :)

    The girls Jason has been with are exchanging something he wants for something they want. Low N is just *part* of the package that Jason wants, and he may very well get it (maybe along with some other things he didn’t want, lol – I think that’s true in most relationships!).

    I know you feel like guys like Jason* have spent their time swimming in oceans of women and are now training their eyes on the pristine pond that you live in, but truthfully you and those girls are lakes apart. There’s no real point in telling him he ain’t gonna get it, because his definition of Wife Material is very different from yours! And since he isn’t your type anyway, I’d take solace in that. ;)

    *sorry to be picking on you Jason, you’re just a convenient example at the moment!

  • Jackie

    @HanSolo

    “What about the flipside, where a woman wants a man with a high enough N and even higher than her own. The breakfast date girl told me she wouldn’t want to have sex with a virgin and that if I were one that I would have to go out and bang 2 girls before her. lol”

    :shock:
    You’re kidding, right?! How did this come up over breakfast? It’s hard to imagine transitioning from “getting to know you” chats with “oh, by the way, you better have high N or else start racking up the numbers!”
    ====
    ” A woman may want a man that makes 2x what she does and won’t accept a man who only makes 1/2. Is that hypocritical? ”
    This would be hard for me to understand– if the guy has good character, that’s worth so much more than cash.

    Are things like N and cash really that interchangeable? Because one seems to be a moral standard, and cash doesn’t seem to work the same way. You can work very hard, very morally and still be poor in many industries. Alternatively, some very less-than-deserving people makes (or inherit) wads of cash.

    Besides that, you can be wiped out monetarily (or win the lottery) in an instant. Character (or N) can’t be an exact equivalent to that, I think.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    I think a significant part of hypocrisy is when there is unfairness involved. One person does one thing and gets away with it while the other cannot do it but gets no compensating benefit.

    Person A brings b+c. Person B brings c+d. So they’re not exactly equal but as long as each values what the other brings and they want to get together than even though they only have c in common then I don’t think it would count as hypocritical.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    I can’t get a read on this girl. She comes across as very flirty and a tease and talks about crazy things but she is giving me the sense that she is a big talker but not really that wild. Almost like she thinks she has to brandish enough slut credentials but really isn’t a slut. She also emphasizes how she wants to wait quite a while until sex (which is fine with me) but I’m not sure if she has had a wild phase with sex on the first date or not and is now wanting to wait with me because she thinks I’m a good guy. I actually don’t have a problem with if she had sex quickly with a few guys and is now reformed. However, if she’s not reformed and is just making me wait in her mind (not that I’m rushing anything) then that would bother me.

    To you other point, I’m not equating money and character. Basically, I’m saying that each person can value whatever the want in the other and if they both find each other bringing what they want then even though those things are different then it’s a good deal for both.

  • Sparrow

    @HanSolo: So, what’s the deal with “reformed?” Is that necessarily a good thing?

  • HanSolo

    @Sparrow

    Reformed would be a good thing. If a girl has been having casual sex with strangers or even friends or acquaintances on a frequent and recent basis that would be disturbing to me. Then it would feel unfair if she makes me wait–cueing the hypocrisy charge. Now, I may decide to want to wait because it can often be good to get to know someone before sex. I can see the logic if the girl was just having flings with other guys and sees me as a long-term guy and thus makes me want to wait but it viscerally feels unfair to me.

    The reformed part comes in where maybe she did some casual in the past and realized it wasn’t so good for her and has really changed her attitude and has demonstrated that over a reasonable amount of time.

    This is all known on here as price discrimination. I am less concerned about this and N than many of the guys on here but nonetheless it still concerns me.

  • Jackie

    @Capt Solo

    Han, no one but a true Princess like Leia Organa will be good enough for our Captain Solo. ;)

    In all seriousness, though: Have you ever asked her, point-blank, what she means by things? When people are kind of dancing around subjects, or hoping they can shift the subject (agree & amplify) or gain plausible deniability somehow… that’s when I tend to zero in and ask very specific questions until I get a straight answer. :)

    Maybe she’s afraid that she has to give you some kind of wild talk, or present herself as more experienced than she is, to be accepted in today’s culture. Or maybe she is really a wild and crazy girl. ;)

    To me, though, finding out the truth and talking about what you’ve decided and why in your life is way more interesting and fulfilling than fronting some fake personality (if indeed that is the case here). To me, at least. :)

    Good luck and let me know if she feels about Wookies and the Millenium Falcon! ;)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Han Solo:
    “So a man values a lower N than the woman. What about the flipside, where a woman wants a man with a high enough N and even higher than her own. The breakfast date girl told me she wouldn’t want to have sex with a virgin and that if I were one that I would have to go out and bang 2 girls before her.”

    I don’t know why so many comentators seem to put so much importance on “Numbers”, and why it should be a criteria at all. In many cases, those high N, whether for a girl or a guy don’t mean much regarding either the sexual competency of the person or his/her “morality” (oh no, that word again). What really is telling is rather why or how they achieve those high N.
    I find your “breakfast girl” case quite intriguing and unusual, to say the least.
    Isn’t she rather doing something women are really good at: Subtly asking indirect questions to find out more about you without you realizing it, in other words, testing you?
    What type of a girl would you say she is? How would you describe her? I’m quite curious.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Han Solo:

    I can’t get a read on this girl. She comes across as very flirty and a tease and talks about crazy things but she is giving me the sense that she is a big talker but not really that wild. Almost like she thinks she has to brandish enough slut credentials but really isn’t a slut. She also emphasizes how she wants to wait quite a while until sex (which is fine with me) but I’m not sure if she has had a wild phase with sex on the first date or not and is now wanting to wait with me because she thinks I’m a good guy.

    She’s following a script. She sounds like another victim of Pluralistic Ignorance (“this is what guys want, so I’m gonna act like this so that he’ll be into me!”).

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    She has to be a Wookie lover and not feel like my Millenium Falcon (aka, MilF-banger) is a piece of shit. :D

    No, I did ask her again and she stuck by her guns on a virgin needing to bang 2 girls before banging her. She also said that an N of 20 is too high. Sounds like goldilocks. I’m kind of feeling she may not be Leia but we’ll see.

    Thanks for your advice and thoughts.

  • Sparrow

    @Han Solo. My take?
    Thought process: Guys like sex, I need to show that I’m into sex so guys will like me ’cause they like sex.
    Talk is cheap.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    That is the sense I’m getting because when I asked her if she’d gone home with any guy she met at a bar she said no (now she could be lying so who knows at this point). She married young and divorced at mid 20′s. Now, 2 years later, I think she’s had sex with a few guys but nothing as wild nor as many as when we first started talking. I’m giving that 80% probability right now and 20% that she was wild and is now trying to not look like a slut. Time will tell.

  • Tasmin

    @HanSolo
    While it probably goes against some kind of pillar of game, I’m with Jackie, if you are interested in her you need to try and reign in and/or drill down into those images she is tossing around. She may be probing to see how you respond, but this: “Maybe she’s afraid that she has to give you some kind of wild talk, or present herself as more experienced than she is, to be accepted in today’s culture.” is a real deal.

    It is so frustrating to me that the “culture” encourages this kind of projection of a certain image; an image that may be far from the truth and one that is probaby most welcomed by the very men that these women are trying to avoid. And the fact that the vulgar, hypersexualized banter gets pawed around like a ball of yarn ‘tween drunk kittens so often these days doesn’t always provide a lot of room for real conversation.

    It has happened to me. And because I was on my heels so often, just letting her go on and not calling her out or redirecting her wanderings, I basically took her on her word – which resulted in an image that became quite unattractive to me. When I finally started pressing her on it – primarily by voicing my own desires, preferences, etc. only then did she dial it back.

    But it still took some time to reconcile the things she said with her behavior and her beliefs and values. Sadly, my inability to unwind those things she said with what she really believed, coupled with my discomfort with the image she had projected created a rift. It came down to trust, to being genuine, and the fact that the “truth” only came out when it became clear where I stood on those things resulted in just too much amiguity for me.

    She eventually said the image was inaccurate that “I [she] thought that was what I wanted to hear” etc. But sadly, because the “truth” had been so muddled and because I had let it go too far unchecked, resulted enough lingering doubt that I had to end it. Sure, she could have been lying about her past and her beliefs and actually was some kind of sex-poz, liberated, casual, occasionally vulgar, sexually forward, etc. woman, but Iwill never know. The moment she decided to present an image as opposed to herself, the truth died on the vine.

    And I will add that I am certain she thought that I was a “regular guy” – which is to say not regular at all, but those 10-20% of men who are the visible and desirable men with ample options and plenty of history in exercising those options. I guess that is a compliment in terms of my looks – SMV or whatever, but in the end her overestimation of the desireability of that sex culture imagery was very costly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      I’m glad to see you, I wanted to share something with you. Last week you left two very insightful comments about the situation between the brokenhearted young woman and the guy who ended their relationship because his career is in bad shape.

      She called to tell me that your comments were such a gift – she knew in her gut that you understood and that reading your comments allowed her to see his perspective in a whole new light. She said that she had her roommates read them as well, and that all three of them got teary reading about your own experience. I think all three of them have a better understanding and increased empathy for what it means to be a male provider in this era so disrespectful to them.

  • HanSolo

    @Sparrow

    Thanks, that’s where my opinion is leaning right now.

  • J

    Royale–Good to see you! How are you?

  • Sparrow

    Wordplay seems a lot like a skill that girls try to do because it’s sexy when guys do it.
    Guys? Your thoughts? Girl who can banter?
    I don’t mean sarcasm, I mean puns and double entendres and stuff like that.

  • VJ

    Not sure it’s been mentioned above, but here via TNR is another relevant bit of info:

    “How Older Parenthood Will Upend American Society
    The scary consequences of the grayest generation”

    http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/110861/how-older-parenthood-will-upend-american-society

    Women not ‘thinking about such matters’ in their 20′s, will likely not get to have the all the children they once desired. Worse, they may not get to ‘complete a family’ size at all due to their persistent delay in marriage, and the subsequent fertility decline of Both parents. More will be childless, or have disease prone or afflicted children due to older parental ages. And yet that’s the precise time most of the class is spent ‘discovering’ just how lovely NSA sex can be with all the hunky dudes. Sad that, but it’s nothing that’s not been known since almost forever. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ

      Thanks for that link, that was a very interesting article. The bottom line:

      “The main obstacle to be overcome is the unequal division of the opportunity cost of babies. When women enjoy the same access to education and professional advancement as men but face penalties for reproducing, then, unsurprisingly, they don’t.”

  • J

    Also, while I’m harping, all I have to do is take a look at my roommate and his ball busting, big 4 accounting firm Jewess gf (it’s okay, I’m a Jew too. Happy Hanukkah!).

    I’m always a bit perturbed by minority group men projecting the traits the majority attributes to the whole group to the women only. A certain AA male blogger used to do that a lot here. Same phenomenon.

  • Mireille

    People fugde numbers with the opposite sex and with their peers as well. Everybody wantst to look the most attractive and successfull. I definitely fudged numbers when I was younger, especially when talking with other women. Was pretty happy to be out and stop pretending I was operating some type of sex factory.

    But yes it is true, it has become basic knowledge that you have to project moderate to high sexual availability and openness, otherwise you don’t even make the list.

  • HanSolo

    @Sparrow

    I personally like it but I’m on the cerebral side. I think more cerebral guys would like it as long as they’re funny puns. I had a female cousin that loved to say puns.

    I don’t think that the puns and double entendres would work well with overly “cool” jock types or anyone who has a hair trigger on calling something lame. But then why a punstress like you’d want to be with such a killjoy is beyond me.

  • Tasmin

    @Mireille
    “…otherwise you don’t even make the list.”
    Not true. But I guess that depends on the list you are trying to make.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Royale
    I was about to ask about your whereabouts…how are you doing?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Sparrow: Puns and double entendres.
    This can show that the girl has a vivacious mind and it can be an asset, yes. This is however something you can’t learn.
    For me, if a girl that I don’t yet know very well pulls out puns or double entendres that have a sexual overtone, it’s a bit of a put off, it “breaks the charm” so to speak.

  • J

    Jackie: They don’t trust men like you because they’ve seen how you’ve treated other people’s daughters and want something better than that for their own.

    Han: I think you’re assuming that he was duplicitous and caddish and that the daughters were deceived or not willing and equal participants. However, if they both agreed to it then you can’t claim he was deceptive. Now, you can not like his promiscuous behavior but you should equally call out the girls who have treated other people’s sons the same way.

    J: Based on my experience as a daughter, I think that’s a finer distinction than most fathers would make.

  • HanSolo

    @J I think a lot of that is rooted in the different reality that we evolved in where there was no birth control, rape was possibly more frequent and an extra baby with no dad to help out was a greater burden than it is today. But all of that is emotional reaction and has nothing to do with women being just as responsible as men today for having sex and with whom.

  • J

    But all of that is emotional reaction and has nothing to do with women being just as responsible as men today for having sex and with whom.

    LOL. I recall trying to reason that one out with my dad, but he wasn’t buying it. In fact, when I was pregnant with my older son, my dad would occasionally glare at my husband as to say, “What did you do here, you pig?” He could also never bring himself to use the word pregnant in reference to me. He would mime it by making a belly shape in the air front to him. It’s nutty, but it’s instinct.

  • Abbot

    “I haven’t seen any accusations of rape or rape culture (yet) but ‘slut-shaming’ has already been bandied about”

    Those feminists are hyper-concerned about how men think of women. They fear that a woman will not behave as her “true self” dictates if she is swayed by the male gaze (even though women evolved to do just that). So the feminists denigrate men for daring to express what they want to see in terms of behavior and appearance. The root of all this is anger. Anger over having failed to produce a sufficiently large population of men willing to adjust to and accommodate the feminist wrath.

    They got so worked up over their newly contrived modesty issue, it was written about twice -

    http://jezebel.com/5966651/hey-girls-modesty-is-bullshit?tag=modesty

    http://jezebel.com/5947931/is-there-power-in-modesty?tag=modesty

    .

  • Emily

    >> “Is that Abbott’s Pinterest– the Guys on Modesty? Those clothes and pics are really cute! Abbott, did you do all that? I’m impressed!”

    Me too! I clicked on it expecting it to be all carousels and sluts, but instead it was like “ooooh! Pretty dresses!!!!!!” I’m about to leave for work, but I’ll definitely peruse through it once I get back. :D

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    The percentage of male and female Millennials who want children and marriage is similar, with the females slightly higher.

    The Helen Fisher study showed that Millennial males were slightly higher than their female counterparts in wanting marriage and kids.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/survey-shows-single-men-commit-women/story?id=12831296#.UMbstSqF_kE

  • VD

    I can understand how a woman deciding to clean up a man’s place is considered a “plus”, but why is it expected of her? Why is she being attributed “negative” points for not cleaning up a place that she doesn’t even live in?

    Because that is simply what women with homemaking skills and sufficient interest in men do. Especially women with boyfriends. For example, in four years of college, I cannot recall doing my laundry more than once or twice. I’m still not entirely clear on the concept – my wife banned me from the washing machine after I apparently put the wrong things in together early on in our marriage – because one of the various girls I was seeing would always do it without me asking or expecting her to do so. In return, I’d let them raid my closet whenever they wanted. They almost always returned my sweaters and sweatshirts, but the t-shirts I’d pick up from other schools at track meets frequently disappeared.

    There is no point system or anything like that. There is simply the recognition that, as a homemaker, his girlfriend is likely to be inferior to other women more naturally inclined to the role.

  • Kathy

    @ Jackie.

    “Are things like N and cash really that interchangeable? Because one seems to be a moral standard, and cash doesn’t seem to work the same way.”

    Exactly, Jackie.

    There seems to be the idea (for some men) that a woman will overlook N’s if a guy has status and cash.

    If a woman has a moral standard that she adheres to, she will expect the same from a prospective marriage partner.

    I could think of nothing worse then marrying a high N guy (and I didn’t- both times,)

    Sex is so bound up with love for me. It just would not have worked.

    I think the reason that some women will accept a high N guy is because of that meme, that a guy needs to sow his oats before he settles down.
    I was just not brought up that way.

    It’s a repugnant thought to me.

    My parents made no exceptions for my brother in that respect. As a consequence, when he married a 22 year old virgin at 24 , he himself was a virgin too. They have two kids and have been happily married for twenty years. (I too was a virgin at 19 when I first married and my second husband has been the only other man that I have had)

    I have been happily married for 17 years and have never ever thought of another man, since meeting my husband.

    And as I have mentioned before, he never really had any money to speak of when we first married. Though he is earning a six figure sum, now.

    He certainly knew that I never married him for his money, but because I loved him deeply. :)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Back to the original Larissa Faw article for a moment..the very first sentence is:

    “My Millennial-aged girl friends and I never doubted that we would accomplish all of our life goals.”

    Seems to me that someone who has NEVER doubted that they will accomplish ALL of their life goals must either (a)have extremely lame life goals, or (b)be astoundingly arrogant. Indeed, I’m reminded of George MacDonald Fraser’s word-portrait of Lord Cardigan:

    “(his eyes) looked out on the world with that serenity which marks the nobleman whose uttermost ancestor was born a nobleman, too. It is the look that your parvenu would give half his fortune for, that unrufflable gaze of the spoiled child of fortune who knows with unshakeable certainty that he is right and that the world is exactly ordered for his satisfaction and pleasure”

    Elsewhere, Fraser described Cardigan as “looking as though he had just been inspecting God on parade”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Seems to me that someone who has NEVER doubted that they will accomplish ALL of their life goals must either (a)have extremely lame life goals, or (b)be astoundingly arrogant.

      I think this ties into the high percentage of young people who agree with the statements “I am a special person” and “I will do something very important in my life.” We’ve told 100% of the kids that they are top 3%.

  • szopen

    I have created a long and detailed answer, but then I realised that
    1) Aunt Sue would definetely not be happy about this, and since I don’t know how much she earns, I don’t want to take the chances she can afford hiring few blokes to maul me.
    2) most of my answer were quotes from two sites, so probably I should just post the links to those sites.

    So, this is a short version. Really, i meant it: this is a shortened version. I hope it didn’t get to chaotic because of shortening.

    @just1z

    contrary to your assertion that ‘scientists’

    You have not posted something contrary to my assertion ( i>The scientists never in their majority). Yes, there was a debate whether we are going into the ice age or not. However, there was never a clear consensus between the scientists that we are into the ice age.

    What you have posted is a proof that there were some scientists which argued for ice age, something I have not disputed. You have not posted the proof that majority of scientists claimed we are going into the ice age.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s.htm

    The fact is that around 1970 there were 6 times as many scientists predicting a warming rather than a cooling planet

    Tell it to her, a climate scientist.

    I don’t care who she is, I care what she have written. And what she have written does not show understanding of the theory.

    I guess you’re talking about the theory as amended when the original theory made no such mention of CO2 lagging temp

    Are you going to criticise the theory as posted by Arrhenius 100 years ago, or modern theory? Anyway, the theory was not bodged; it was simply not many people realised that what they see, is in fact predite by the theory. This was not the case of hastingly changing everything, but rather a moment when people are facepalming saying we should think about it earlier!

    http://www.aip.org/history/climate/cycles.htm

    An important clue came from some especially good ice core records that timed precisely the changes in the levels of CO2 and methane. The levels apparently rose or fell a few centuries after a rise or fall in temperature. At first this lag puzzled scientists, but they quickly realized that this was just what they should have expected. For it strongly confirmed that the Milankovitch-cycle orbital changes initiated a powerful feedback loop. The close of a glacial era came when a shift in sunlight caused a slight rise of temperature, and that evidently raised the gas levels. The greenhouse effect then drove the planet’s temperature a bit higher, which drove a further rise in the gas levels… and so forth. On the other hand, when the sunlight in key latitudes weakened, that would not only bring more ice and snow, but also a shift from emission to absorption of gases, causing a further fall in temperature… and so forth

    Simply, without taking into account CO2, the models predicted that
    temperatures would rise, but a lot less than in fact we knew they were raising. The theory was that there was FIRST some other cause, which raised the temperature, which increased CO2 levels, which in turn caused more warming, which in turn increased CO2 levels, etc. In other words, the phrase This totally threw what we thought was cause-and-effect out the window means that the author have not even tried to read about the history of the theory and about the theory itself. But wait, she seems to know the theory, yet she dismisses it with Amplification is speculation; it’s a theory with no evidence that it matters in the real world.. In other words, she refuses
    to discuss the most important part of the theory and maybe she doesn’t know that without the theory, suddenly we have a puzzle what caused an ice ages.

    More about that here:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm

    skeptical science is proper science. agw is a religion

    It’s exactly the contrary. AGW is backed by solid scientific theory. It’s the best seen with the whole thing about urban stations, when in fact if you REMOVE all the urban stations alltogether, you still have the heating.

    Urban Heat Island effect…

    It was just checked by the team of sceptics from Berkeley. They started
    in order to prove that everyone else was wrong, after many months of work they concluded, well, that methods used by climatologists were sound, effect of urban heat island is insignificant. In OTOH, when sceptics started to do a site-by-site hands-on survey, they proved that Modellers have corrected for the Urban Heat Island effect. In fact, the analysis of possible urban heat effect was carried over already around 1990, TWENTY years ago.

    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/berkeley-team-says-global-warming-not-due-to-urban-heating/
    What is the reaction of the sceptics? They ignore it alltogether and keep saying about urban heat effects. If this is not a religion, then what it is?

    Also see here:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/urban-heat-island-effect.htm

    Note also, that in the brochure she ignored all the arguments used to say that AGW is likely: she completely ignores them and instead creates a bogus strawman list of arguments! She does not say anything about night/day temperature anomaly differences; heating lower atmosphere layers more than upper; heating more in the higher lattitudes, especially in the arctic and so on.

    Let me remind that there are three different issues

    1) Do we witness a climate change due to human activity (mostly, due
    to CO2 emissions, but there is also for example a methane)
    a)Could adding more carbon dioxide to atmosphere increase atmosphere?
    b) Is there more CO2 in the atmosphere than in preindustrial times?
    c) Are increased levels of CO2 caused by humans?
    d) Do we have more warming?
    2) Are those climate changes harmful?
    3) Are current policies designed at reducing harm sensible?

    I am discussing solely about point 1), and more precisely, I argue that the scientific theory which lies behind the 1) is as sound as any other commonly believed and not disputed scientific theory.

    I think the answer to 3) is firm no, while I think yes is the answer to the 2), but I have not investigated the issue enough to being able to discuss it. Within 1), it seems to me that
    none disputes b) and c), HanSolo seems to dispute d).

    I am not climatologist. My specialty is computer science and I was climate “sceptic” just few years ago. There was an affair with emails and programming code several years ago, and I started to discuss with climatologist while in the same time checking the code. This was very ugly, bad, spaghetti code, full of dirty hacks, in addition to being written in fortran. My last experience in fortran was in my classes from previous century, but still clearly it was nothing unusual in my experience: I was seeing similar codes hundreds of time (before I started work at uni, I was computer programmer). Whenever I thought I found something odd, I asked climatologist and I got references to scientific papers explaining why something was done. After two weeks or so, reading everything I could about the topic, I changed my mind.

    I am writing about this in order to explain why I am not impressed by some of the arguments, and why my stance will not be changed simply because I can’t answer some of the doubts. In discussion I discovered several questions raised by sceptics, and each of them was refuted, but understanding why they were invalid required from me reading several difficult, scientific papers. I am simply not willing to waste my time again to read again and again the objections, since it’s easy to raise the objections, while it’s hard to understand, why they are wrong.

    Now back to the skeptics handbook

    Don’t let people confuse global warming with greenhouse gases.

    But that’s the whole point. I have just read scientists, climatologists, who said
    that:
    a) They believe the phrase used in the media (AGW theory) is misleading, since this is not scientific theory, and instead they proposed name “greenhouse gases theory” and similar
    b) They argue that the only basis for their belief in the AGW (not in the theory, but in the fact that humans are driving climate change) is the theory of greenhouse gases. The theory dictates that we SHOULD be witnessing warming. In fact, if they would no warming, they would first try to find out additional cooling factors before believing theory is false. You know, it’s the same like with the principle of energy conservation – when experiments showed that energy is not preserved, physicians refused to believe the principle is violated, instead they postulated hypothetical new subatomic elements (sorry, I forgot the English proper terms), and they believed in existence of this subatomic elements despite it was experimentally confirmed many years later.

    Refusing to discuss the theory of greenhouse gases is absurd.

    For discussion of saturation here:
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/06/a-saturated-gassy-argument-part-ii/

    For the hot spot discussion see here:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/tropospheric-hot-spot.htm

    For the runaway warming effect here:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/positive-feedback-runaway-warming.htm

    The models failed to predict… is already answered by SayWhaat.

    …Aaaand I think it’s enough to discuss the theories lying behind the belief that climate is changing due to human emissions of greenhouse gases.

  • szopen

    Heh – so my shortened version of response to Just1Z is nevertheless so long it went to the moderation :)

  • JP

    “Seems to me that someone who has NEVER doubted that they will accomplish ALL of their life goals must either (a)have extremely lame life goals, or (b)be astoundingly arrogant. Indeed, I’m reminded of George MacDonald Fraser’s word-portrait of Lord Cardigan:

    “(his eyes) looked out on the world with that serenity which marks the nobleman whose uttermost ancestor was born a nobleman, too. It is the look that your parvenu would give half his fortune for, that unrufflable gaze of the spoiled child of fortune who knows with unshakeable certainty that he is right and that the world is exactly ordered for his satisfaction and pleasure””

    I call this complete confidence in oneself.

    Sometimes I have it. Sometimes I don’t.

    When it works correctly, it involves hitting the bullseye on targets that other people can’t even see.

  • JP

    “My generation of SAHMs gave 5 star service, aka helicopter parenting.”

    “The question of why some emerging adults do well, why some struggle and what can be done to help more make a successful transition is taken up by several book contributors.

    Tanner, co-editor of the APA book and an assistant research professor in the School of Social Work at Simmons College, argues that the heterogeneity Arnett cites can be explained by the foundation laid in childhood and adolescence.

    As she describes it, how well an adolescent makes the transition through young adulthood into adulthood and becomes a fully independent person depends in large part on the right balance of the adolescent pushing for independence and parents and society giving the correct amount of support–not pushing too hard or holding back too much, she says.
    Many emerging adults who face problems becoming independent have faced past challenges meeting developmental tasks for one reason or another, she says.

    “There are enormous costs to young people who are not equipped to ‘plug in’ to adult roles and responsibilities,” Tanner says.”

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun06/emerging.aspx

  • J

    My SAHM time was heavily devoted to direct interaction with my kids, taking them on outings, to the park, etc. I was extremely involved with volunteering at each of their schools all of the way through. In fact, I was President of the Parents’ Association twice, ran several Annual Fund drives, etc. IOW, I brought my career energy to a career as a mom, and I found that most of my SAH peers did the same.

    Mine was similar. Not a lot of time spent making homemade playdoh or vaccuming in pearls. Lots of outdoor time with the boys, lots of music, lots of civic time and volunteering in religious settings. One volunteer position became a flextime job when the youngest started school.

    As to the tidying up for boyfriends questions, I never provided maid service for any guy I dated. I did cook meals to reciprocate for dates and give handmade presents like sweaters for serious boyfriends. IMHO, providing maid service is equivalent to beta orbiting.

  • Escoffier

    “The idea of cleaning up a guy’s bathroom after a short period of dating in pure insanity. Tidy up your room? WTF. And what did you do for her, may I ask? If you say pay for dates, then my response is that you were buying sex and maid service.”

    Wow, where is this coming from? You say you are “pro-relationship”, what do you think a relationship is? My college GF did all kinds of stuff like that for me and I did many things for her, didn’t keep a ledger, sorry.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Wow, where is this coming from? You say you are “pro-relationship”, what do you think a relationship is? My college GF did all kinds of stuff like that for me and I did many things for her, didn’t keep a ledger, sorry.

      First, this is the girl that Jason dated briefly before dumping her for a N of 16, which he knew about from day 1. Clearly, she knew she was in a tenuous position and thought she could scrub her way out of it.

      Second, Jason has said he kept up his masculine end of things. I don’t know what that means. Did he change her tire? Paint her apartment? Help her move? What are the manly things Jason does when he’s dating someone? Perhaps he will admit he did all of these things, in which case I agree with you, it seems like a fair set of expectations.

      I was always one for the cute little gestures and domestic touches, but I never cleaned for someone or did their laundry until I lived with Mr. HUS. Things I did do:

      Cooked elaborate meals, even at age 17.
      Created care packages during times of stress.
      Made lots of mix tapes of our favorite songs (oh the 80s!)
      Sewed a large pillow with the fraternity letters on one side, insignia on the other.
      Embroidered the entire back of a denim shirt with boyfriend’s favorite album cover.
      Wrote love poem in spiral on hollow egg.
      Sewed him a bathrobe to keep at my place.
      Traveled to NYC by train to find tab-collar shirt like George wore on the cover of Beatles 65.
      Shopped extensively for first edition of treasured book (no Alibris in those days).
      Needlepointed Christmas stocking.
      Knitted scarf.

      And each of those guys did special things for me as well. Call me crazy, but performing drudgery for a lover sounds like a major attraction killer on both sides. To each his own.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @J: Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been incognito for a while. I’ve started dating someone. He’s very nice and a lot of fun.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RWC

      I’ve started dating someone. He’s very nice and a lot of fun.

      Yay, that is fantastic! Fingers crossed that this goes really well for you!

  • Escoffier

    OK, what are the “penalities”? The article does not specify. Unless she means “The fact that by nature mothers will end up being more impacted by having children than fathers.” In which case, the point is risible.

  • JP

    “I think this ties into the high percentage of young people who agree with the statements “I am a special person” and “I will do something very important in my life.” We’ve told 100% of the kids that they are top 3%.”

    Do they really truly believe that they are top 3%?

    At least with my skills, I’m at least able to guess whether I am above-average or below average.

    And below average means bottom 50%.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…I think believing you will “do something very important” is actually psychologically healthy…”never doubting” that you will accomplish “all your life goals” (which implicitly suggests that they can all be accurately pre-planned), not so much.

    It was good for Lord Cardigan as a military commander to have self-confidence, but not good for him to have the level of arrogance that contributed to the disaster called The Charge of the Light Brigade.

  • Escoffier

    “Call me crazy, but performing drudgery for a lover sounds like a major attraction killer on both sides.”

    Great argument against both marriage and LTRs, both of which you claim to be in favor of. I think you need to think this through a little more.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Great argument against both marriage and LTRs, both of which you claim to be in favor of

      I didn’t say anything about marriage. I said cleaning is obviously part of the deal of living together. Why should an LTR depend on a woman’s performing drudgery? What drudgery did you perform for her?

      Again, I think that if couples want to do each other’s chores, that’s great. Personally, I’d rather clean my own toilet and let a bf deal with his. I prefer more romantic and creative ways of showing love and appreciation. There’s plenty of time for dirty laundry and soiled bathrooms once you get married.

      If you are suggesting that women should clean without equivalent drudgery on the man’s part, I reject that notion. If he’s supporting her, that’s different, but there has to be equity, IMO. Mr. HUS has never operated our laundry machines – not once. OTOH, when we were expecting a big crowd on Sunday I went to clean the bathrooms and found they’d already been done.

      The chores thing is a real hot button for couples. I believe I’ve read that even women who work full-time and provide 50% or more of the household income do 80% of the chores.

      “I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan….”

  • Ted D

    RWC – “I’ve been incognito for a while. I’ve started dating someone. He’s very nice and a lot of fun.”

    Best of luck!

    Re: Domestic stuff for BF – Every one of my LTR mates did similar things, although my first didn’t much because I was still living at home for most of our relationship.

    My ex wife started cleaning my kitchen the very first time she came to my house. My roommate and I actually sat shocked for a few minutes, and then I got up and offered a hand. It wasn’t that we weren’t capable of cleaning, but two single guys living together just don’t put much effort into kitchen duty. I told her she didn’t have to clean, but she said that if she was going to be spending ANY amount of time at my place she couldn’t do it with a wrecked kitchen.

    We had our problems, but she kept our place in good order.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I told her she didn’t have to clean, but she said that if she was going to be spending ANY amount of time at my place she couldn’t do it with a wrecked kitchen.

      My son’s gf told him that if he didn’t start keeping his apartment a bit cleaner, she would not be willing to visit. 100% reasonable, IMO. I told him so.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, your posts on this topic seem to me to convey the message to women: “If you’re cleaning, working or doing any favors for him, you are being exploited! If you intend to do so anyway, make sure to keep a ledger of what he does and scale back as soon as the ratio slips below 50/50.”

    You are fond of studies. I assume you know that this type of relationship dynamic has been studied and found to be disastrous.

    Beyond that, your message–to the extent that it is taken to heart–will encourage women to become more demanding and less giving and men to become more mistrustful and more inclined to think “Now why would I want THAT?” So, it is anti-relationship. And, if I may say so, extremely feminist.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Had to run some errands – is the Charwoman Barbie debate still active?

      Susan, your posts on this topic seem to me to convey the message to women: “If you’re cleaning, working or doing any favors for him, you are being exploited! If you intend to do so anyway, make sure to keep a ledger of what he does and scale back as soon as the ratio slips below 50/50.”

      Not at all, we all are free to make our own choices. I listed some of the very labor intensive things I did for boyfriends in my youth. I think the best relationships are ones where there is no tit for tat, and no one keeping score. My objection is precisely about that – expectations. Jason made it clear that he has expectations that a girlfriend will clean for him. His roommate now wonders why his gf doesn’t clean his apartment.

      I go to extraordinary effort for the people I love, and now that I’m married I’m even willing to don rubber gloves and grab the Lysol to do it.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Are you losing it? Obviously those things were seen as a plus by me, and had nothing to do with my decision. I clearly appreciated all of her gestures and I’m sure she would tell you that.

    What did I do for her? Yes, I paid for a majority of things, and all big expenses, but I was also the one to cook breakfast for us 95% of the time, I did things like bring her lunch at work when I knew she didn’t pack, helped her with her grad school assignments and got her a stuffed animal that was an inside joke of ours.

    But of course, according to you, I was barely more than a slave master. It’s laughable that I even have to defend myself here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Obviously those things were seen as a plus by me, and had nothing to do with my decision. I clearly appreciated all of her gestures and I’m sure she would tell you that.

      IIRC, she knew from the first “morning after” that you thought her number was too high. She was in a one down position from the start, needing to do whatever she could to get from the slut pile to the girlfriend pile. A woman cleaning your bathroom and picking up your dirty socks is clearly trying to demonstrate high relationship value. Sadly, though you appreciated her soapy bubbles, you did not move her to the new pile.

      FAIL.

  • Madisonkc

    @Abbott,
    Hey, that pinterest website is not bad all! I personally prefer for my hemlines to be a little above kneelength. But most of the outfits are really cute and they’re close to my fashion sense (with a little less prep)
    Good job

  • Jason773

    This is the REAL message women need to hear. Not that they should be cleaning the piss off the toilet seat.

    Someone clearly pissed in your Cheerios this morning.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Second, Jason has said he kept up his masculine end of things. I don’t know what that means. Did he change her tire? Paint her apartment? Help her move? What are the manly things Jason does when he’s dating someone? Perhaps he will admit he did all of these things, in which case I agree with you, it seems like a fair set of expectations.

    And yes, I actually did do these like this, which didn’t even cross my mind because they are so trivial to me. I got her oil changed on her car, and if need be, I would know how to change a tire. I also did a few minor home improvement things that she needed at her apartment because I’m fairly handy.

    These weren’t expectations from either end, they were just things that were done without thinking of reciprocation or keeping score.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      These weren’t expectations from either end, they were just things that were done without thinking of reciprocation or keeping score.

      But you just criticized the Jewess for not doing those very things. If that is not an expectation I don’t know what is.

  • Lokland

    Tit for tat.

    I picked up that cup and put it in the dishwasher.
    Now you do that one.

    I’ll scrub this half of the toilet.
    Now you do that half.

    Sounds like heaven…

    Also, duly noted that apparently males invest nothing in relationships and therefore deserve 0 perks. The drudgery of all that courtship doesn’t count however.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, duly noted that apparently males invest nothing in relationships and therefore deserve 0 perks. The drudgery of all that courtship doesn’t count however.

      This response borders on the hysterical.

      Males invest nothing?

      Women should provide toilet cleaning perks?

      Courtship is drudgery?

      Women don’t appreciate courtship?

      You know, in four years of blogging, and many, many discussions about how women can show their care and appreciation for a man, not one guy has ever suggested she might clean his apartment. Much less than that she should be expected to maintain it.

  • J

    “Call me crazy, but performing drudgery for a lover sounds like a major attraction killer on both sides.”

    Great argument against both marriage and LTRs, both of which you claim to be in favor of. I think you need to think this through a little more.

    Um, no. Presumably married people have a division of labor that is mutually beneficial.

  • J

    @Royale

    That’s terrific!!!! I hope all continues to go well.

  • Escoffier

    I addressed the “ledger” issue above. Aside from that fact that “studies show” such relationships don’t work, I personally would not want to be in one and neither, I am guessing, would a majority of guys.

    This whole discussion shows how ubiquitous and insidious feminism is when several women who consider themselves not feministis and even in certain respects anti-feminists can aggressively push a feminist meme without realizing it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I addressed the “ledger” issue above.

      You missed the point by 180 degrees. Jason expressed that he expected his girlfriend to clean his apartment, and indicated that a woman who does not choose to do so is not marriage material. Those expectations – with check box at the side – are what belong in a ledger.

  • Jason773

    Clearly the women on here are divisive. Some (Hope, Ana) see these things as completely standard and don’t even think of keeping score, while Susan and others clearly have a score card and are looking to go tit for tat. I think the latter attitude is OUTRAGEOUS!

  • J

    Mr. HUS has never operated our laundry machines – not once. OTOH, when we were expecting a big crowd on Sunday I went to clean the bathrooms and found they’d already been done.

    DH likes to wash/iron his own clothes. (Believe or not, I felt rejected by this as a newlywed.) I won’t let him near mine or the kids though.

    He can make a bathroom shine though.

  • J

    Abbott–

    I like the Pinterst page and am a modest dresser myself. My DH and sons are big on modest dress as well.

    Did you actually put that together yourself?

  • J

    while Susan and others clearly have a score card and are looking to go tit for tat. I think the latter attitude is OUTRAGEOUS!

    While I don’t have a score card, I find the idea that either party should not get some reciprocity to be outrageous.

  • Ted D

    Jason – “But of course, according to you, I was barely more than a slave master. It’s laughable that I even have to defend myself here.”

    Join the club! FWIW if I were you, I wouldn’t take any of this too personally. I’ve seen MANY similar reactions from women when a guy seemingly “takes advantage” of a woman he is dating. The way I see it, if she is willing to do it, and I’m not in any way requiring it, no harm/no foul.

    Now I WILL admit I use my children as slave labor. I tell them so in fact! I figure they should learn to take care of themselves early, and what better way than cleaning up their own mess AND helping us around the house. Plus, I drag the boys out for all house maintenance tasks. Pretty soon they’ll be learning to change a tire! (to be fair, I’m making my 18yo change a tire before she can drive any of our cars, despite the fact that we have AAA. I’m debating if I should show her how to check fluids, it might be too much. LOL)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Personally, I’d hate to have someone cleaning up around my place. I might not be too tired or not in the mood for tidying things up at the time, but like Ted D, it would feel wrong to sit back and watch while she cleans my place. I’d feel obligated to join in and help her out. :( In addition, I’d also be obligated to reciprocate the favors. That’s not to say I don’t want to help her out with computer problems, fixing mechanical stuff, assembling furniture, etc… I like doing that stuff. But I’d rather not have any obligations outstanding.

    I also hate receiving gifts. Then I have to give gifts back. And I hate choosing gifts for someone.

    There is a lot of space between submissive, cedes to male authority and continuous shit-tester. That’s what I think you’ve lost sight of.

    Definitely. Personally, my ideal relationship would be filled with mutual respect and pedestalization. I don’t want her to cede to my authority or anything. Just treat me as an equal. Of course, I abhor shit-tests much more than I dislike submissiveness, and I’m aware of the fact that a lack of masculine-feminine dimorphism in the relationship can be an attraction-killer. Thus, I’d rather err on the submissive side.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Here is how it works, or should work when two people are dating and do not live together.

      When one party hosts the other party at their home, that invitee is a guest. Being a gracious host includes making your guest comfortable in clean and orderly conditions. Obviously, young people are often messy and some may tolerate more dirt than others. This is a compatibility issue for couples to figure out.

      There are times when guests generously offer to pitch in. They may help cook, clean up after a meal, strip the bed they slept in, etc. Of course, a guest may choose to do much more – I have done so when staying with a new mother for example, or when my father had his knee replaced this summer. I visited with the express purpose of being of service.

      What is outrageous, IMO, is the expectation that a guest will clean your home or tidy it up as a gesture of goodwill, or that guests should ever be judged by such a standard. Considering a person who does not break out the disinfectant a poor guest is completely unreasonable.

      We are all responsible for our own dirt and our own messes. Personally, the only bodily fluid I want exposure to when dating is semen, but again, this is a choice.

      It’s not the guest that is out of whack, it’s the host.

      Once you live together or are married, the division of labor may be negotiated in a way that is agreeable to both parties. When Mr. HUS and I lived together, we generally tackled the cleaning together once a week. As a SAHM I did it all.

  • INTJ

    * I’d rather err on the submissive side when choosing a partner.

  • INTJ

    @ Ted D

    Now I WILL admit I use my children as slave labor. I tell them so in fact! I figure they should learn to take care of themselves early, and what better way than cleaning up their own mess AND helping us around the house. Plus, I drag the boys out for all house maintenance tasks. Pretty soon they’ll be learning to change a tire! (to be fair, I’m making my 18yo change a tire before she can drive any of our cars, despite the fact that we have AAA. I’m debating if I should show her how to check fluids, it might be too much. LOL)

    Difference between white and Asian parents. While you guys make your kids do chores, our parents are making us study. :D We clean our own messes, but the parents take care of all the chores around the house. The expectation is that we will use the extra opportunity to educate ourselves (and just plain enjoy our childhood) and will use the extra income to take care of our parents when they’re old. This is also why most Asian parents pay for their kids’ college educations. Heck, if I get admitted to graduate school without sufficient financial support offered by the grad school, my dad is ready to pay for my graduate education.

  • Ion

    Abbott! Your pinsite is amazing.

    I love all those skirts, and wear them generally because 1. I love the comfort and look of skirts, especially long skirts (my legs are like 4 feet tall, so usually long skirts work better than too short pants and skirts).

    I also love those wedding dresses. Have you seen what’s out now? Why are brides comfortable with their relatives looking at their pushed up cleavage on their wedding day? I would NOT feel comfortable with my dad seeing my cleavage during first dance/when I’m cutting cake. I’ve seen these brides in person, and trashy looking pics too many times.

    Kudos on lace, which I love (a lot of brides find it’s dated but I definitely disagree).

    Why am I going into so much detail? lol moving on…..

  • JP

    I grew up in a standard issue American “study” household, where I didn’t have to do chores. My job was to do well in academics, I think with the assumption being that life would take care of itself if I well.

    Granted, my parents didn’t really pay for college (because a free ride) or law school (because I was essentially cut off at that point).

    Gaining some actual life skills, such as the TedD way, seems to be more helpful later in life when it no longer matters.

    My wife is pretty much in charge of household maintenance, yard work, auto repair, etc. Basically, anything that involves dealing with the physical (and social) world.

  • Ted D

    INTJ – “Difference between white and Asian parents. While you guys make your kids do chores, our parents are making us study.”

    Good point. But we have minimum grade requirements too. I’ll admit that we let the occasional C slide by, but by and large we expect solid B or better on all final grades (per grading period). If they miss that mark, not only do they do chores, but they lose privileges (no Xbox, TV, cell phone, PC access other than for homework, etc.) plus we sometimes add on extra unsavory chores (likes scrubbing garbage cans. LOL)

    All that being said, I was a horrible student. Not that I didn’t learn the material, but I take horrible notes. (to this day in fact…) By the time I made it to HS, I was acing my tests but still getting C’s because I didn’t do my homework. I payed for it with a bad start on higher education though.

    My son is following in my footsteps too (my mom said payback is a bitch!) and I have to stay on him to get stuff turned in. Again, not that he isn’t learning the material and passing the tests, but he let a 100 point assignment in reading fall behind, and got an F. It brought his solid A down to a C for the grading period, and despite the “passing” grade he found himself grounded for a few weeks. Next step? making him take a paper to each of his teachers per week so they can sign off that he is doing his work.

    I wish they would get it together and put this stuff online. They have a system, but the teachers are not required to update regularly, so some of his classes don’t show a thing until AFTER the grading period is over. that doesn’t help me much…

  • JP

    I think that I was expected to graduate valedictorian and never get a B in anything.

    I did get a B once in 9th grade. Missed the A by 1 point.

    However, this was essentially consistent with my level of intelligence and academical skills compared to my fellow students.

    I note that these skills are non-transferable to the real world.

  • SayWhaat

    I also hate receiving gifts. Then I have to give gifts back. And I hate choosing gifts for someone.

    Haha, I’m the complete opposite! I *love* getting gifts for people! I choose them very carefully and I love their surprise once they open them. Gift-giving is how I express love. There’s a reason the holidays are my favorite time of year. :)

  • Maggie

    I was happy to cook and do a lot of things for my husband’s comfort before we were married, but I never cleaned his place. We spent most of our time at my place anyway and I didn’t expect him to clean my place either. Even before feminism the women I knew wouldn’t have cleaned their boyfriend’s bathrooms.

    In defense of Susan, it’s not possible to have a happy long-term marriage if you are keeping a score-card or looking for tit-for-tat. You’d be long divorced or pretty miserable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Even before feminism the women I knew wouldn’t have cleaned their boyfriend’s bathrooms.

      I have never even heard of this. I had lunch with three friends today and reported this conversation – they were incredulous too. Three simultaneous facepalms. We surmised it must have something to do with women attempting to DHV in an SMP where relationships, especially with players, are difficult to lock down.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think it was Gottman (could be wrong) who described the “covert contract” that operates beneath relationships. Largely submerged—like the bulk of an iceberg—the CC contains the expectations of both parties in a set of “if…then” statements: “if I do this for you, then you do this for me….”

    The relationship is seen as a stable, long-term trading arrangement. Here it is important to differentiate between so-called “hygiene” factors and “motivator” factors…

    A hygiene factor is something that you would expect the other party to do simply because it is assumed to be embedded in the very concept of having a relationship. The other person doesn’t receive special credit for doing these things; however, the absence of them would cause great stress on the relationship. Hygiene factors represent the bare minimum.

    A motivator factor, on the other hand, would be something that went above and beyond the baseline and that would need to be counted in some kind of establish psychic ledger—if someone does motivator x for you, you feel obligated to do something nice for her in return or to make some other clear show of appreciation, and so on (with a hygiene element, you would not feel that a show of appreciation was necessary; e.g., we all probably would agree that a woman should not have to thank her boyfriend for restraining himself from beating her up. A man should not have to thank his girlfriend for restraining herself from having sex with one of her ex-boyfriends at a party).

    I’m guessing that, among the many other problems today, there is wild confusion in the covert contract/expectations with relationships, most notably in terms of hygiene and motivator factors.

    I’m a case study in this modern confusion. I basically was schooled in a line of reasoning that said that I should try to systematically eliminate domestic needs, so for years I have hired a cleaning lady, took cooking classes, etc. I also assume that I will be absorbing almost all of the monetary costs of dating, including frequent gifts. However, this amount of independence actually can create some problems for my relationships.

  • Ted D

    INTJ – also, it may be a white vs. blue collar thing. Our kids are by no means unintelligent, but they also aren’t geniuses. I don’t expect any of our kids to make it into anything super technical (although my son has expressed interest in Geology, and of our four kids he is the most likely to succeed at a “sciencey” degree) so in my mind they’ll need a healthy dose of “this is how you get by” in addition to whatever higher education they can achieve.

    Not trying to paint them in a negative light, but the truth is it takes a lot of raw brainpower to be a rocket scientist, and our best household IQ is just shy of 130. (my daughter claims that title.) I’m not sure about my wife and her kids, but my son comes in at around 122, and I roll it at 118ish.

    Anyway, I spent much of my childhood learning hands-on stuff from my grandfather. Education was important (not like I was required to get A’s and B’s, I just had to pass), but I was also expected to learn basic life skills as well. I was the first of my close family to even get into college, and many of my cousins never went and instead made their way doing blue collar work like electrical/construction/plumbing. In my mothers generation, college was a pipe dream for most of my family, and very few managed a degree. Of my age group, probably 50 to 60% got some kind of higher education, and with our children we are finally starting to see the majority going for a degree of some sort.

    We simply aren’t that far from our roots in the mills and mines of Western PA.

  • SayWhaat

    Good point. But we have minimum grade requirements too. I’ll admit that we let the occasional C slide by, but by and large we expect solid B or better on all final grades (per grading period).

    Lol. There was a point growing up where I knew if I brought home a single B, my parents would have murdered me.

    Asian mentality regarding school: “This one is dumb, kill him. We’ll make another.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    This is going to sound off to some ears, but I get a real sense of pleasure from “serving” my husband. He never scrubbed a toilet since we’ve been together, but we moved in together very quickly. It didn’t feel like drudgery to me, and did not decrease my attraction for him. Actually I think doing the housework increased our relationship harmony and therefore my attraction, because we never had any arguments about whose turn it was or how to divide up the chores. It was also a way for me to signal my devotion.

    However, I don’t want to do the SAHM thing. I would be terrible at participating on parent associations and boards, and I don’t do well with kids activities. When I was younger, I would just play by myself and stare at clouds, mess around with household items instead of toys, and read books meant for adults. I always felt older than my age and didn’t care for sports, so I’d likely be even worse for a boy. My husband prefers that I work, too. We’re likely looking at private school, which is going to be expensive for our middling incomes.

    I still do most of the housework (minus yardwork and handy stuff) and childcare in addition to working, but grandma home-style daycare takes a big load off, and next year we might get maid service once a month. My husband’s job is a lot more demanding than mine. He makes a little more than me, but he has only been working for a year and half while I’ve been working real jobs for over 6 years. He’s also on track to be management material because he has the personality for leadership, whereas I have no interest in that.

    The only time I felt a little resentful was when the baby was first born, and I was up every 1.5 hours pumping and feeding. I was a total zombie, and he went back to work the third day, so he was no help. It’s all a fog now, but I remember wanting sleep soooo badly the first two months. Now that I’m getting 4 hour chunks regularly, life is grand. :D

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    SayWhaat, I saw a meme that was the overbearing Asian parent saying, “You A-sian, not B-sian!”

    I don’t want to be that bad, but I admit I’m probably going to be cranky if our kid brings home a C. :P

  • Darsh

    Susan,

    Please tell me everyone is talking past one another here. It really seems like you’re taking the examples the guys are giving way out of proportion.

    No one is talking about forcing girlfriends to clean the drains three times a day and wash piss off of a fraternity’s toilets with a toothbrush!

    What is being said is that if a girlfriend offers or cleans up a bit (or a lot), then that is definitely noticed and appreciated! My ex-girlfriend once came over to go on a date, but had to wait a while cause I had to finish some e-mails (job applications, this was the end of grad school). While waiting she just started to clean up a bit. It wasn’t much – she just folded some shirts and picked up some stuff from the floor – but to me that was huge! I told her that she didn’t have to (like all the other guys so far, I would never have dreamed of demanding that she cleaned up anything for me), but she said she wanted to and asked if it was okay. I ended up having to kiss her and then we went on our date – the e-mails could definitely wait till later.

    The point is that she demonstrated what I can really only label as femininity. If it had only been the “wanting to clean up”-part, it would have been weird, but combined with the rest of her behaviour and personality, it amplified her femininity with several magnitudes! She’s an absolutely fantastic person, and I fear she set the standard that I compare other girls to be a bit to high.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Darsh:

      What is being said is that if a girlfriend offers or cleans up a bit (or a lot), then that is definitely noticed and appreciated!

      Jason:

      She isn’t obligated to do anything, but then again men aren’t obligated to marry women and provide so they can be a SAHM.

      No one is saying that she has to, but there are girls out there who do things like that.

      He has flat out told me that he is jealous of the treatment he has seen girls, especially my ex-gf, give me. While he works 50-60 hr/week at a marketing firm, and hopes to someday be able to have a SAHM, I know for a fact that he thinks something is missing from his gf. She stays over once or twice a week, and I have never seen her cook for him, clean,

      She clearly isn’t very nurturing, doesn’t clean, can’t cook (he cooks for them) and is not in my definition feminine. I wouldn’t blame him at all for tell her to buzz off, but that is his choice to make.

      My point was that my roommate started to ponder the question “why doesn’t my gf ever do things like that for me?”. I didn’t give two shits if his gf cleaned up, and I never would expect her to clean up my dishes or after me.
      And yes, I obviously hold a gf in my life to very high standards in a lot of areas, probably a lot more than my roommate.

      Conclusion: Jason’s remarks clearly demonstrate expectation – a woman’s willingness to clean his apartment is a prerequisite for worth. He holds women to the standard of being willing to clean his apartment.

      He specifically used that description to compare his now dumped girlfriend favorably to the ball busting Jewess his roommate dates.

  • Ramble

    And yet, he still dumped her for having “too high an N” when his was around 4x as much.

    Jackie,
    Different Standards ≠ Double Standards

  • Ted D

    Hope – “I don’t want to be that bad, but I admit I’m probably going to be cranky if our kid brings home a C”

    Thing is, my wife’s boy struggles and studies hard just to get a B, and any slacking off on his part drops him down to a C (or worse) quickly. I was an average student, but it was because I was a lazy ass. I feel for him that the work is so taxing.

    Pushing him to be an A student would do no good, and would likely cause more issues from stress and pressure. Sometimes an A is just not attainable.

  • Ramble

    That poses an interesting question – should a SAHM mom be June Cleaver, baking casseroles and sewing little sundresses for Janie? Or might she be some 21st c. version – one who approaches her SAHM role the same way she approached her career?

    Susan, I don’t believe that this is addressing your question, but, it is not well known that prior to World War 1 that is was very common for homemakers to “work” at home. That is, that they did things outside of keeping their home (which was considerable back then…no dishwasher, clothes washer, dryer, cars, (heavy) iron cookware, etc.) for which they got paid. You know, various related to food, clothes, sewing, etc.

    My guess is that we will see more o this in the future. One increasingly common variation on this that we see today is where women can work jobs that specifically keep hours between 10 am and 2pm. This way they can see the kids off to school and be home when school is over.

    BTW, my mother’s approach to motherhood/wifehood was quite similar to yours.

  • Ramble

    Clearly, she knew she was in a tenuous position and thought she could scrub her way out of it.

    I can’t speak for Jason, but that sounds like a big assumption. And, I am in agreement with Escoffier and Jason, it sounds like you went off the rails on your reaction to this.

    I don’t mean that you need to agree or disagree with a particular chosen path, but your reaction sounded harsh.

  • Mireille

    If a guy wants me to clean his place, then he’ll just have to get a ring and get us a place to clean. Otherwise, I do not have to clean his place. I can’t think of having a guy clean my place and really find it amazing some guys would expect you to clean their place.
    You can only control your end of the deal: making sure your lodgings are pristine when he/she visits.
    BTW, I don’t think I read any guy say he cleaned while at his gf’s place. Apparently cleaning is a one way road. Maybe someone wants to elaborate on that.

    Finally, I think the Jason example is pretty telling; you can cook and clean, and be great in bed (supposedly) and still get dumped. This is a cautionary tale imo.
    I also believe in not comparing relationships and what’s happening in other couples. This is how men dump women because they don’t clean or bake for them and women dump guys for not getting them jewelry/flowers/romantic whatever. This is an open door to the window.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a guy wants me to clean his place, then he’ll just have to get a ring and get us a place to clean. Otherwise, I do not have to clean his place. I can’t think of having a guy clean my place and really find it amazing some guys would expect you to clean their place.

      +1

      you can cook and clean, and be great in bed (supposedly) and still get dumped. This is a cautionary tale imo.

      +1

  • Jason773

    Hope,

    This is going to sound off to some ears, but I get a real sense of pleasure from “serving” my husband.

    This is the exact same line I’ve received from both of my former gfs, and it’s an idea that I think a lot of women, here and overall, take issue with. Things didn’t work out with either of them, but these types of things were part of their nature and I certainly noticed it and appreciated it.

  • Ramble

    Why should an LTR depend on a woman’s performing drudgery? What drudgery did you perform for her?

    Right after college I was living with my brother and dating this girl. She basically lived with us on the weekends (she was still in school) and also a little bit during the week. Anyway, one weekend my brother was improving the kitchen and living room (i.e. painting and some other things). We started to “line” the kitchen drawers with this, well, lining, but it was proving to be a pain in the ass.

    After my brother and I basically gave up, my gf took it upon herself to finish this job even though 1.) it was not her place, and 2.) she did not like the lining to begin with. She did a great job. It was one of those things where my brother and I looked at one another and knew that was a real keeper.

    Now, in the end, things did not work out, but, that act was most definitely appreciated.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      After my brother and I basically gave up, my gf took it upon herself to finish this job even though 1.) it was not her place, and 2.) she did not like the lining to begin with. She did a great job. It was one of those things where my brother and I looked at one another and knew that was a real keeper.

      That was generous of her, and it’s good that you appreciated it. Did you make sure that all future girlfriends were thumbs up on drawer lining?

  • Darsh
  • HanSolo

    @Mireille

    No one is expecting you to clean his place.

    Where are all you all getting this idea of expectation about cleaning his place from?

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    However, I don’t want to do the SAHM thing. I would be terrible at participating on parent associations and boards, and I don’t do well with kids activities. When I was younger, I would just play by myself and stare at clouds, mess around with household items instead of toys, and read books meant for adults. I always felt older than my age and didn’t care for sports, so I’d likely be even worse for a boy. My husband prefers that I work, too. We’re likely looking at private school, which is going to be expensive for our middling incomes.

    I still do most of the housework (minus yardwork and handy stuff) and childcare in addition to working

    You mean you do much of the hard work of housework and childcare but don’t enjoy the fruits of your labor (getting to play with the kids)?

  • Jason773

    I can’t speak for Jason, but that sounds like a big assumption.

    Huge assumption that was simply dead wrong. I think some women just can’t understand why others actively enjoy doing things like that. It is in her nature to be a caretaker, hell she is a middle school special ed teacher, and it flowed over to me.

    It’s interesting how this has set off a few on this board, and IRL I’ve witnessed firsthand how it has set off many other high achieving career women.

  • Ramble

    Haha, I’m the complete opposite! I *love* getting gifts for people! I choose them very carefully and I love their surprise once they open them. Gift-giving is how I express love. There’s a reason the holidays are my favorite time of year.

    SayWhat,
    I will definitely get parts of this story wrong, but, a few years back there was some research done on gift receiving and gift giving. I believe they did it with brain scans so as not to rely on self-reporting. Anyway, here were some of their findings:
    - Receiving expensive gifts were not better than personal/thoughtful gifts.
    - We genuinely do prefer to give than to receive.

    There were other findings as well, but those were key in my mind. Now, we do like receiving gifts, but, at least according to this research, giving gifts is more desirable than receiving and receiving personal and thoughtful gifts were the best kind to receive.

    Humanity really is a good thing.

  • JP

    @Ted:

    “Pushing him to be an A student would do no good, and would likely cause more issues from stress and pressure. Sometimes an A is just not attainable.”

    His B’s are probably his sweet spot, academically speaking. That’s where he gets the most benefit from school. Not too easy (C’s) and not too hard (A’s).

    The thing with stress is that it needs to be where you get benefit from it and not too hard that it’s too much to handle.

    He’s probably getting good experience from being challenged.

  • Ramble

    I don’t want to be that bad, but I admit I’m probably going to be cranky if our kid brings home a C.

    And if you decided to educate them at home, how much hard core testing would you give?

  • Ramble

    If a guy wants me to clean his place, then he’ll just have to get a ring and get us a place to clean. Otherwise, I do not have to clean his place.

    You go girl!

    You don’t have to do anything.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    I am glad to hear that the woman found my comments to be helpful, though I am sure that they did little to ease her pain.

    The young man had plenty of things eroding is sense of worth, direction, purpose, power, etc. but there is also that sliver of potential truth in there that deep down he did not share her feelings or doubted the long-term viability of the relationship for other reasons. His situation perhaps forced a rekoning.

    IME what really tore me up was not just what I lacked as a provider-male but rather how those lacking things interfered with my ability to generate the kind of love and faith that she deserved – and that I knew we would need to go long, for keeps. I know my career path, provisioning, sense of self, lack of confidence and empowerment was a big part of my inability to make that level of investment, but it might not have been all of the story either.

    So I still wonder: does love transcend those other things or do we need those other things to find love?

    I’m glad that the young women were able to see a bit of the male perspective in all of this. I really do think that empathy can unlock a lot of what has been tied up in knots over the past 30 years. And to be fair, I am finding my own way to understand and empathize with women my age.

    I was a single man at 23 then again at 35. My view of my self (current SMV) has had to absorb all kinds of shocks in order to paint over the SMV that I felt I had at 23. IOW, the market moved but I still feel like that short(er), struggling, introverted guy forcing his way into the crushing depths of the extroverted world. The good and bad is that it comes through experience. Experience that has brought hurt along the way, but in that hurt I have come to understand a power that I had little knowledge of or appreciation for prior to a few years back. While I still struggle to “own” it, I can understand it much better and this understanding has given me a glimpse of just some of what it might have been like for those 18-25 y/o women – who are now 30-35 and still looking.

    While I am a long way from the world coming to my feet or the a la carte menu of women of my chosing, I can relate a little better to what it means to be desireable yet alone; both the gratitude for the opportunities it brings and the disappointment of it not bringing what I want; both embracing the power it occasionally affords me and accepting the responsibility of how that power may impact others, all while searching for what I really want. Alas, being the heart-breaker is no better than being the broken-hearted if it is love we seek.

    Yet even with all of that newfound power – my peaking(ed) SMV, I often fall under the relentless sword of self-doubt and buckle under the yoke of those societal expectations, all of those things that men should do in order to be men, to compete, to be desireable, be worthy, however comntradictory, self-sacreficing, or disadvantageous those things may be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      . Alas, being the heart-breaker is no better than being the broken-hearted if it is love we seek.

      Indeed. This is profound.

  • Jason773

    Han,

    Where are all you all getting this idea of expectation about cleaning his place from?

    Exactly. Some women in here are now actively making things up that were never said. I even stated the exact opposite, that I never expected them to do those things!

    Like I said in my last post, this is very telling. Talking with women at work about these things you should have seen the death stares that I have received. They know that men appreciate these things and take them into consideration, but they hate that fact because they would never want to do them, or think to do them. They feel their womanly role being challenged and become resentful.

  • INTJ

    @ Ted D

    My college GPA is tanking because I’ve lost all motivation to do homework that involves straightforward drudgery. I managed to eek out a 3.0 GPA for the last couple of semesters, because I tend to score a good 20% higher on midterms and final exams than the average student.

    Liberal arts classes have a very light workload, so I tend to get As and A-s there. Aerospace engineering and physics classes have a crazy homework load, and I simply don’t do all the assignments, which causes me to get Cs and Bs there. Math classes are where I shine though, as math professors are very flexible about assigning grades (homework is often optional, and there are lots of difficult extra credit homework and test problems that I like to do).

  • Mireille

    I’m loving this;

    “My EX-girlfriend used to do x, y, z for ME; she was great but in the end it DIDN’T work out”.

    Great lesson! Bottom line is those things do not work out on their own to win or keep a guy. Something else is needed. And I really prefer to improve/work on those other things, things that you can’t pay someone to do. I can see you all appreciated that stuff and all but in the end all that wifely display wasn’t not enough to keep the machine going.

    I’m seeing that these days since no one is really focusing on marriage, a lot of marital expectations exist in relationships even when marriage is not on the table, this for women and men, and I personally have a problem with that. Even though I have deep inside an enormous need and willingness to give without counting, I’m also weary that a guy might become so complacent since he’s getting all the advantages of marriage without taking the leap. I believe that is what spoils men and make women bitter. Even in a perfect equilibrium of give and take in an unmarried relationship, I’m not sure I’ll fully give all there is to give because he has to know there is more to come when married, so if he wants it, then “he’d have to put a ring on it” ;)
    In short, expectations are for marriage.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Royale, glad to hear that! Keep us posted. :)

    Ramble, some of the liners they make nowadays are much better. Plush, thick, and no need for sticky tape. But that was definitely a nice gesture from her.

    Re: your other question. I don’t think I’m qualified to homeschool. My husband is the one with real experience teaching in classrooms (high school and college level), and was so good at tutoring math that people still remember him years after the fact. He is an amazing teacher, and knows how to get inside a student’s head and pose a proper challenge. Too bad our society doesn’t value it that much. He is truly exceptional at teaching, but didn’t make a career of it because of the low compensation.

    INTJ, our baby is too young to really play. He doesn’t even hold toys. Right now he’s just really cute and cuddly, and eats, sleeps and pees/poops. My time with him is often just holding him and talking sweetly to him.

  • Ramble

    “My EX-girlfriend used to do x, y, z for ME; she was great but in the end it DIDN’T work out”.

    Great lesson! Bottom line is those things do not work out on their own to win or keep a guy. Something else is needed.

    Mirielle, you do understand that in many of these stories we are talking about Sample Sizes of One. And, with your statement still in mind, would you then be in favor of doing those things that Susan mentioned (like sewing a new robe for your boyfriend for when he stays at your place) since it did work out? (Even if it did NOT work out for some other girl?)

    We all have to do our best with what information is available to us, but jumping to, seemingly, previously set conclusions based on such small sample sizes can not be a good thing.

    I’m seeing that these days since no one is really focusing on marriage, a lot of marital expectations exist in relationships even when marriage is not on the table, this for women and men, and I personally have a problem with that. Even though I have deep inside an enormous need and willingness to give without counting, I’m also weary that a guy might become so complacent since he’s getting all the advantages of marriage without taking the leap. I believe that is what spoils men and make women bitter. Even in a perfect equilibrium of give and take in an unmarried relationship, I’m not sure I’ll fully give all there is to give because he has to know there is more to come when married, so if he wants it, then “he’d have to put a ring on it” ;)
    In short, expectations are for marriage.

    Mirielle, I am genuinely curious, when you are dating a new guy, do you make it clear that marriage is what you want? I don’t mean on the first date, or that you say to Timmy that you need him to marry you, but that, ultimately, marriage (and, I am assuming, children) are what you are ultimately working towards.

  • MiGHOW

    I’ve entertained women at Chateau Mighow before for a whole weekend including cooking and being an exceptionally charming and convivial host while the girl merely relaxes.

    As a little experiment I have suggested to a few girls that they might want to help out or even take on the Sunday night clean up.

    They were shocked I tell you, asking for anal would have generated less outrage lol. An insult to their feminist principles.

    Suffice to say they quickly dropped of the keeper list.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They were shocked I tell you, asking for anal would have generated less outrage lol. An insult to their feminist principles.

      LOL, that’s female supremacy. I’m talking about equity.

  • Lokland

    @Mireille

    There is an error in your logic.
    You assume because providing x, y and z did not lead to marriage that they are not necessary to achieve marriage. Instead a, b, c are what is actually required.

    It could also be the case that the woman who lacks x, y, z may also not be suitable for marriage if she only has a, b , c.

    I’m not interested in debating if cleaning/willingness to do chores/nice things is an expectation for marriage.

    However, as a general rule. A person with a, b, c, x, y and z will fare better than either a,b,c or x,y,z individually.

    Something to consider.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, some of the liners they make nowadays are much better. Plush, thick, and no need for sticky tape.

    This stuff was the type that was all sticky on the one side and if you did not place it perfectly at first, you were kind of screwed. Also, everything had to be measured to get it in the right shape to begin with. We were blown away by what she did.

    When she was all done, she came out and told us “you can put all the plates, glasses and pots and pans away” in a “your welcome, fuck you” tone. It was great.

    I don’t think I’m qualified to homeschool

    I understand. My point was more about our Choke-and-Puke* method of teaching and the value that is then placed on the resulting tests.

    * My HS Physics teacher called it Choke and Puke. Before a test, you take in as much information as you can until you choke on it, and then puke it out on the exam, retaining little of the actual value. He was great.

  • JP

    Slate now has an article on why having kids at 35 is bad.

    Here are a couple of paragraphs, complete with a BioShockish-type reference:

    “So I’m not complaining. But you know what I am doing? I’m wishing. I’m wishing we had started popping out those kids, oh, say, five years earlier than we did, so that maybe, by 40, my bedroom and my sons’ bedroom wouldn’t be separated by a fake wall. Which is what I thought about when I first saw the cover of this month’s New Republic, featuring a photo of a graying couple and their toddler son and the very effective line: “We Are Having Kids Later Than Ever. We Have No Idea What We’re Getting Into.”

    The excellent piece, by Judith Shulevitz, is generally about the “scary consequences” of older parenthood, and specifically about the greater likelihood of physical and mental disorders that children of older parents face. Shulevitz cites the study of older dads that got a ton of attention earlier this year, establishing that “the number of genetic mutations that can be acquired from a father increases by two every year of his life, and doubles every 16, so that a 36-year-old man is twice as likely as a 20-year-old to bequeath de novo mutations to his children.” She also writes about “age-related epigenetic mutations”—meaning how environmental influences, such as age, can impact sperm DNA, and therefore traits in our offspring such as body size and mental capacity:

    There’s also the question of how much we know (or don’t know) about the long-term effects of fertility treatments—treatments that Shulevitz herself underwent when finally trying to have her first baby at the age of 37. As one Columbia University professor puts it, “We keep pulling off these technological marvels without the sober tracking of data you’d want to see before these things become widespread all over the world.”

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/12/10/older_parenthood_is_waiting_longer_to_have_kids_a_feminist_triumph_or_a.html

  • HanSolo

    @Jason773

    The reaction of some of the commenters here misses the broader point that it’s not the cleaning itself but rather the thoughtful gesture that is appreciated and will set a woman apart from an identical woman that doesn’t do thoughtful gestures.

    Another fallacy being presented is that since the relationship didn’t work out in the end that it didn’t make the woman seem of any more value and so no woman should do thoughtful gestures. But no one ever said it would so this is another distraction. Doing thoughtful gestures is only one piece of many that will make the man attracted to her but it is not sufficient to make up for other areas that may be lacking.

    To put it bluntly, the thoughtful gestures will raise the woman’s MMV above her raw SMV by maybe 0.5 points or something. Overall awesome girl game can raise it by probably 1 or maybe 1.5 points. However, the SMV 6 girl should not expect to have as high an MMV as the SMV 8 girl who doesn’t go out of her way to either add (girl game) or subtract (bitchiness, entitlement) to her MMV.

    The SMV 6 could reasonably expect to have an MMV of 7 by encorporating a lot of girl game but it will be extremely difficult to go much higher than that.

    I think your merely mentioning cleaning created an emotional reaction in some of the women and they assumed, in spite of evidence to the contrary, that you (or other men) were demanding that and that seems unfair. However, no one is demanding gf’s to clean the guy’s house.

    The other thing that created an emotional reaction of unfairness was that you have a high N and want a low N girl. However, everyone is free to demand what they want and see if what they have to offer can attract that. If they can then that seems like a win-win deal.

    There are different things that men and women value and so each doesn’t have to be exactly equal for the marriage to be a good “deal” for each side. Rather, both sides should feel that they’re getting what they need/want out of it. The man likely values looks (or whatever other things) more than the woman does. The woman likely values charisma, confidence and career success (or fill in whatever else she values) more than the man does.

    This means that an equal value “trade” can be made even though the specific items being “traded” are not the same.

  • Mireille

    Mirielle, I am genuinely curious, when you are dating a new guy, do you make it clear that marriage is what you want? I don’t mean on the first date, or that you say to Timmy that you need him to marry you, but that, ultimately, marriage (and, I am assuming, children) are what you are ultimately working towards.

    That is a good question and yes, I definitely make it known that I’m looking for a husband. I think it quite clear I’m a very direct person. I tend to read people very well and therefore rarely waste my time. I see coupling like a job; a boss won’t get the best of me by having me intern for them or work part time or giving me low pay. And I’d actually prefer to be a full time employee so I can make considerable progress and investment, without regret, on the project I’m working on. In the same line, a guy can’t expect to get all there is to get while we’re simply dating and I hope the woman is not as well.
    The way I see it, while all these things are appreciated, it also seems they can be taken for granted at the same time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Mireille, I think “put a ring on it” before doing such things is the wrong attitude to start a lifelong marriage. The ring is a symbol of love, not a proof of contract. My husband knew my love for him is real and not contingent on his marrying me. Yeah it would have sucked if he dumped me, but that’s the risk you take with love.

    Sometimes relationships don’t work out, but doing nice things for the guy shouldn’t mean he owes her to keep the relationship going. Even if the fundamental compatibility isn’t there — and compatibility will differ from person to person — those little nice gestures are still appreciated, as the guys’ reactions here demonstrate.

    Attitude and intention are more important than even the actions themselves. Someone mentioned elsewhere that the “nice guy” who expects sex for nice gestures is not really nice. The same is true of the girl who expects tit-for-tat for acts of service. In the end, the love you give comes back to you, even if it doesn’t seem like it at the time. These ex-girlfriends will find love easily as long as they keep their loving spirits.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    But the underlying feminine attitude and bringing a certain kind of cheer and happiness into my life and just appreciating me is so huge.

    This is the REAL message women need to hear. Not that they should be cleaning the piss off the toilet seat.

    Bwahahahaha! :lol:

    + 1!

    @ J:

    As to the tidying up for boyfriends questions, I never provided maid service for any guy I dated. I did cook meals to reciprocate for dates and give handmade presents like sweaters for serious boyfriends. IMHO, providing maid service is equivalent to beta orbiting.

    Same here.

    I cook all the time for us. I’m nurturing and caring. But I do not do maid and laundry service for my bf!

    To me, that’s a wife thing! If we get married, I have no problems doing so. But as a girlfriend, it smacks of “mothering”, which is something I think women would be wise to avoid!

  • Escoffier

    Kinda makes me laugh to read various females take for granted sex before marriage, but laundry?!? What kind of girl do you think I am!!

    Metaphor for the culture.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kinda makes me laugh to read various females take for granted sex before marriage, but laundry?!? What kind of girl do you think I am!!

      Metaphor for the culture.

      +1 Exactly so.

  • Emily

    >> “Personally, I’d hate to have someone cleaning up around my place”

    Yeah, I just don’t feel all that comfortable cleaning somebody else’s house. Doing a few dishes is probably safe, but you never know when people have some sort of “system” in place that you’d be messing with. …this is especially true if the guy has roommates. I feel a lot more comfortable being domestic if it’s on my own turf.

  • Mireille

    Mireille, I think “put a ring on it” before doing such things is the wrong attitude to start a lifelong marriage. The ring is a symbol of love, not a proof of contract. My husband knew my love for him is real and not contingent on his marrying me. Yeah it would have sucked if he dumped me, but that’s the risk you take with love.

    I respectfully disagree with that statement. I’m pretty sure women didn’t clean their suitors’ place in the past and managed to marry for a long time before our generation. Second, the ring is, contrary to what Jared and Kay would have us believe, a proof of the intention to enter in the contract of marriage; otherwise we’d just be offering each other rings for the sake of it with no intention of marriage. It is a clear statement and public declaration of the intention to marry. Your bf could have offered you a bunch of diamonds rings with the express stipulation that they meant nothing; I’m pretty that would puzzle any woman. Finally, and we seem to differ on that point, I do not think I’d stay and continue loving someone without being married to him. My love, in the long term, will be contingent to marriage. Believing in marriage and the obligations/joy that comes with it is an important value that I want to share with my partner; I’d hope he knows that I will not indefinitely wait for marriage and would also be eager to seal the deal and get our family going.

  • Emily

    Btw, I find it pretty scary (but sadly, not all that surprising) that people are so threatened/angered by Abbott’s Pinterest page.

  • Jackie

    @Emily

    “Btw, I find it pretty scary (but sadly, not all that surprising) that people are so threatened/angered by Abbott’s Pinterest page.”
    ===
    :shock:
    What?!?
    How could anyone be possibly angered by those cute and inspirational clothes?

    (BTW, Abbott, if you put all that together yourself–hours upon hours spent picking out cute, modest outfits for women– I have misjudged you and will gladly apologize for my mistake. I thought you were just here to beef about SLUTZ. ;) )

  • Emily

    Yeah, the comments on this page are truly facepalm (if not head-to-desk) -worthy:
    http://pinterest.com/guysonmodesty/pins/

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “I thought you were just here to beef about SLUTZ. ”

    Don’t let him fool you. All of us older guys are only here to “beef about slutz” of course… /sarcasm off. :P

  • Jackie

    “Finally, and we seem to differ on that point, I do not think I’d stay and continue loving someone without being married to him. My love, in the long term, will be contingent to marriage. Believing in marriage and the obligations/joy that comes with it is an important value that I want to share with my partner; I’d hope he knows that I will not indefinitely wait for marriage ”

    +1
    ===
    I mentioned this earlier in the “Penalties” thread and it ties in here as well:
    My body, my heart, my unwavering devotion and service are not something that can be offered up to just anyone.

    What I have to offer is worth commitment. For me, the commitment of living together, “maybe we’ll get married, someday” is not a commitment. It is equivalent to an audition the guy is holding.

    I don’t ride that bus.

    What Mireille says about giving this kind of selfless devotion without receiving it in return leading to bitterness is very true, in my observation. Note all these guys writing here about receiving the benefits of these girls giving them cleaning, cooking, nurturing (in addition to sex) are NOT talking about marrying these girls.

    I am not saying “Be selfish!” or “Don’t be feminine!” Quite the contrary:

    Cherish your femininity enough to bestow it upon someone who will commit to you. Give from a place that where making others happy brings you happiness as well. The man who will truly love you will not want a doormat.

    In other words, Self-respect: Use it or lose it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In other words, Self-respect: Use it or lose it.

      Yes.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Mireille, I agree with you that it’s not wise to wait around indefinitely for marriage. My husband asked me to marry him 4 months after we moved in together, and we got married 6 months after the engagement (which did not involve any diamonds or rings; I only began wearing a wedding band after we got married).

    We did move in together with the intention of likely getting married. In fact we talked about the potential for becoming a family with kids in the first month. So it was a much more serious relationship from the beginning, and that is the context under which I did all of the domestic work. Nothing really changed after we got married, except legally, like my last name.

    I do not disagree with you that putting up without marriage is a bad idea. If a man did not see me as marriage material, I would not stay. But I also did not enter into relationships unless the man demonstrated he truly and passionately loved me. There was a guy I liked before my husband whom I never cleaned up or cooked for, because he didn’t demonstrate real love for me, and we were never in a real LTR. I hope this clarifies my views a bit.

  • Just1Z

    “Cherish your femininity enough to bestow it upon someone who will commit to you. Give from a place that where making others happy brings you happiness as well. The man who will truly love you will not want a doormat.”

    I think that you should check out the new post – your comment is a good fit…

  • INTJ

    @ Mireille, Hope

    I agree with Mireille’s point of view that putting a ring on her is a statement of commitment, not love. But I think that’s just the difference between personality types.

    What confuses me is that my mom (an INFJ) shares my unromantic view. She does have a well developed tertiary Ti function though.

  • Just1Z

    “You have not posted the proof that majority of scientists claimed we are going into the ice age.”

    Science isn’t a democracy – truth isn’t determined by vote.

  • Ramble

    My love, in the long term, will be contingent to marriage.

    I find this statement to be odd.

  • Jackie

    @Esco
    “Wow, where is this coming from? You say you are “pro-relationship”, what do you think a relationship is? My college GF did all kinds of stuff like that for me and I did many things for her, didn’t keep a ledger, sorry.”
    ===
    Escoffier, in a way you are making a point for her. This college GF who did all this stuff for you– if I recall correctly, you wrote about being bonded to her, in a way that made an imprint, even now. Was this the girl you lived with, even though your parents disapproved (and never found out, I think?)

    The point is, this kind of devotion is very much a bonding behavior. She was devoted to you, you were bonded together, but you didn’t marry her. Didn’t you say it was really hard for her to get over you?

    BTW: Would you want your daughter cleaning her college BF’s bathroom? It just seems to be that this level of devotion is for a couple who are in their own place together.

  • Ramble

    The man who will truly love you will not want a doormat.

    Jackie, I am curious, do you feel like you are arguing against anyone with this statement?

  • Jackie

    @Ramble (688)
    Hi Ramble!

    I don’t feel like I am arguing against a specific person as much as I am against the attitude of entitlement and expectation.

    To me, Jason’s example of his ex-GF scrubbing the bathroom and cleaning the kitchen and his roommate’s “ball-busting Jewess accountant” GF are opposite sides of the coin:

    One is a supplicant who holds her devotion to be of such low value that she will give sex and maid service to a guy who dumps her for her “high N.” The other is someone who (I presume– she got stereotyped in a rather ugly way in the original comment) is not especially soft or feminine.

    I believe there is a middle way: A woman’s femininity is a powerful thing. Incredibly powerful, I believe most men would agree, when put into practice. It can make men do and feel things they never thought possible.

    That femininity should be valued and not treated like a party favor that can be given away without a second thought. I mean this in regards to any way a woman can devote herself to a man.

    You can still give from a place of abundance and happiness. I don’t believe in being parsimonious or stingy. “Give from a place that brings you happiness as well” is just my rule of the thumb.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One is a supplicant who holds her devotion to be of such low value that she will give sex and maid service to a guy who dumps her for her “high N.” The other is someone who (I presume– she got stereotyped in a rather ugly way in the original comment) is not especially soft or feminine.

      Jason also predicts his roommate will marry this woman. He may have envied Jason his tidy room, but Jason’s girl is long gone and his girlfriend still sleeps in his room, tidy or not.

  • Just1Z

    “My body, my heart, my unwavering devotion and service are not something that can be offered up to just anyone. ”

    Wow, I would hope not. Impressive statement.

  • HanSolo

    Here’s what Jason773 originally said about cleaning in 492, within the larger context of being ball busters and having few homemaking skills or inclinations:

    Seriously, the SWPL chicks from this article you cited may want to get off the independent woman track and pop out a few babies with a provider husband, but what skills do they have that warrant this investment from a man? Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m all for this approach when women do have “SAHM skills”, but I simply have to look around at Gen Y females and note that a vast majority would be terrible in this role. A lot of them are ball busters, sarcastic, can’t cook, don’t clean, constantly shit test (bc they need to in the office world), aren’t nurturing and worst of all, expect things to just be handed to them.

    If a women is going to be a SAHM then doing some cleaning is probably appropriate, unless they hire maids for everything.

    Then, he gave the example of his roommate’s gf who stays in the house 1 or 2 nights a week but never cleans or cooks–the bf does that. If we take that as an average of 1.5 nights per week then that’s roughly 20% of the week she’s staying there. Now as a guest you could argue she has no obligation to clean and no one is saying she does. But as a frequent habitant she is contributing to the house getting dirty and she is using the hot water and so on so it would be a fair gesture for her to do something in appreciation for that, either in helping with a bit of the cleaning (maybe at 20% of what a fulltime roommate should do, which isn’t that much really) or some other nice thing for the house as a whole or at least to her bf.

    Maybe she thinks that her mere company is enough value and she doesn’t have to do nice gestures. Maybe the bf thinks that too and puts up with her not doing anything to contribute to her 20%-of-the-time residence at his place. Who knows, maybe he values the sex and going out with her enough that he doesn’t mind, or at least he doesn’t think he can do better.

    Anyway, the idea that she shouldn’t help out in some way or other or do something nice for the bf is false. I’ve just made an argument that since she’s essentially a 20%-of-the-time roommate that she should do something to clean up for the dirtiness she contributes to–and yes, she does dirty the toilet a bit, she does dirty the shower a bit and so on.

    Beyond this, even if she feels she isn’t expected to do anything, she shouldn’t be an entitled ingrate and do nothing, though there can be a lot of flexibility on how she does some nice gestures.

    The bigger issue being ignored is that she doesn’t seem to be offering many nice and feminine gestures at all. And a woman of equal (and even slightly lower) SMV who does those things will be much more attractive to men.

  • Abbot

    Why are men even considering offering their precious sperm to these fully pummeled careerists?

    http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/110861/how-older-parenthood-will-upend-american-society

    .

  • HanSolo

    One more point, on the flip side. Some have said that Jason773′s gf did all those nice gestures and still got dumped for her N not being low enough, even though his N is much higher than hers.

    Well, I actually am sympathetic to her if that was the only issue (since I have a somewhat more tolerant view on N; I am willing to go date/marry both a virgin or someone with a slightly higher N) but that is my criteria and not his.

    The main point is that nice gestures do help your MMV but they don’t overcome outright dealbreakers (whether rational or not they exist in that person’s mind). Everyone is free to have whatever criteria they choose and see how that works out for them.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “You missed the point by 180 degrees. Jason expressed that he expected his girlfriend to clean his apartment, and indicated that a woman who does not choose to do so is not marriage material. ”

    Jason can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think his real point has been lost during this hyper focus on “cleaning”. His first comment seemed to be in response the portion of your post that talked about strategy if your goal is to be a SAHM. That was just one act in a laundry list that he presented that would be indicators of a likelihood of being a good candidate for SAHM status.

    Look, if you are a woman who is seeking a husband who you would like to be a provider for you and your children while you stay at home with them, then chances are you wouldn’t seek out men who never went to school and have never shown any desire or ability to hold down a job. Now, such a guy might suddenly step up to the task if put in that situation, but not a good bet.

    Likewise, if a guy is looking for a woman who make a good stay at home mother and wife, he is probably ought to look first at women who seem to have a nurturing instinct and show a desire and ability to do domestic things. Jason seemed to be pointing out that if women have expectations of finding a guy who desires to provide, and is capable of providing, a stay at home mom lifestyle, they have funny of way of trying to show that they would make quality stay at home moms. If the cleaning part bothers you, then focus on the rest (and I would agree that I wouldn’t want a girlfriend cleaning my toilet when she comes over – doubly so if I share it with a roommate).

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think the reason that some women will accept a high N guy is because of that meme, that a guy needs to sow his oats before he settles down.
    I was just not brought up that way.

    I was brought up that way, biggest piece of crap ever said in history. It doesn’t work out like that at all. If he is willing to sex up women he doesn’t care about before marriage he will be willing to do the same after marriage too.

    Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been incognito for a while. I’ve started dating someone. He’s very nice and a lot of fun.

    Woohooo! Great news Congrats! :) Crossing fingers for you.

    Clearly the women on here are divisive. Some (Hope, Ana) see these things as completely standard and don’t even think of keeping score, while Susan and others clearly have a score card and are looking to go tit for tat. I think the latter attitude is OUTRAGEOUS!
    I think this is a cultural difference I hate cleaning with a fire of two thousand suns and I admire people that do it gladly and good so for me cleaning is a very thoughtful appreciated skill and I wish I could enjoy it and if I could afford a maid I will pay her a million dollars if I could. I’m getting the feeling that “cleaning after someone” rings of “presenting myself in an humiliating position” While in my culture at least is actually something to brag about like a man saying that he fixed someone’s computer so the effect is similar we don’t expect our men to fix our computers but if they do it spontaneously is another buck on the love bank, the same if he bring us desert at work or sent flowers all other women will feel envious so we know that cleaning while dating earns point like that, again cultural differences.
    Is a bit like the video of Wonder Woman making a sandwich I didn’t saw it as a big deal but I was promptly corrected as a symbol of oppression of western women. Maybe along with not demonizing men we should not demonize housework?
    Funny enough I had to practically twist hubby’s arm so he could be comfortable with me cooking for him when we were dating and after marriage taking the household duties with him just doing the yard work.

    Not only are virgins very meh in bed, they’re clingy and not worth the effort, even if the guy is interested in marrying her.

    Or you are such a terrible lover that you can only enjoy sex with women who had past lovers to teach them so they will teach YOU what to do, with a new woman you can’t find out, just saying.

    Now I WILL admit I use my children as slave labor.

    William’s job will be entertaining the cat and fetching the coffee in the morning, as soon as he is able :D

    Difference between white and Asian parents. While you guys make your kids do chores, our parents are making us study.

    And Latin parents want you to study and do chores and be good at both! Of course this is a good way to keep kids busy, busy kids don’t join gangs or get pregnant. ;)

  • HanSolo

    Also, an occasional guest of mine would not be expected to clean but someone who stays there 20% of the time would be expected to do a bit here and there or contribute in some other way, like bringing pizza or something.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, an occasional guest of mine would not be expected to clean but someone who stays there 20% of the time would be expected to do a bit here and there or contribute in some other way, like bringing pizza or something.

      Perfectly reasonable! All good guests contribute!

      Seriously, I’m all for pitching in and helping out, but cleaning the bathroom? That is beyond the pale.

  • Ramble

    I don’t feel like I am arguing against a specific person as much as I am against the attitude of entitlement and expectation.

    One is a supplicant who holds her devotion to be of such low value that she will give sex and maid service to a guy who dumps her for her “high N.”

    Jackie, I am confident that you are not reading his story accurately.

    There is a strawman of a Stepford Wife being argued against in this thread.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “He specifically used that description to compare his now dumped girlfriend favorably to the ball busting Jewess his roommate dates.”

    Is this wrong?

    Would it be wrong for one to compare their now mate to a previous one, conclude they are less attractive and therefore less worthy of the (insert what they want)?

    Lets replace cleaning with something else.

    Jasonina’s ex-bf was taller than her roommates shorter current bf.
    Jasonina’s roommate feels she deserves better and expects her future bf’s to be taller.

    People place expectations on all kinds of crap.
    Would you hold it against a guy if he expected a woman to have an uber-epic-awesome WoW lvl gazillion mage?

    Even if its not a deal breaker, it certainly is a plus.

    Note: I’m not personally invested in the cleaning debate as I could probably do open heart surgery on my desk without sepsis worries. My problem was finding woman who didn’t make a mess, not clean up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Would it be wrong for one to compare their now mate to a previous one, conclude they are less attractive and therefore less worthy of the (insert what they want)?

      No, if Jason presented this as a quirky, wacky thing he has – I love a gal with a toilet brush in her hand! – I wouldn’t have a problem with it. He expressly stated that “there are no good women”, essentially – no nurturing Gen Y women, and then defined nurturing as cleaning his apartment while he is not there.

      My rebuttal is against his definition of nurturing, and to express that his expectations are inappropriate for men in general, though of course he is free to put that requirement out there for every woman he dates.

  • Ramble

    Did you make sure that all future girlfriends were thumbs up on drawer lining?

    I am not sure that I am understanding your question. Are you asking if future GFs liked that drawer lining? If so, I couldn’t say. I moved out if his place before breaking up with her.

    However, had I still been living there and some future GF found out that she had done this, that would have been fine.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Conclusion: Jason’s remarks clearly demonstrate expectation – a woman’s willingness to clean his apartment is a prerequisite for worth. He holds women to the standard of being willing to clean his apartment.

    No, it’s the attitude of being pleasant and willing to do nice gestures that is the prerequisite for worth.

    And a much bigger prerequisite for marriage worth, in his mind, is low N.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No, it’s the attitude of being pleasant and willing to do nice gestures that is the prerequisite for worth.

      He specifically derided the roommates gf for not cleaning. He applied his standard to someone else’ gf by defining “nurturing,” and then found his friend’s gf unworthy of commitment.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, in the “college marriages” that you praise so much, what tends to happen is that all the time is spent at one person’s place–typically the girl’s, because by and large it’s nicer, but not always. When that happens, all kinds of things tend to be done in common and, yes, the girls tend to shoulder more of the domestic stuff–as they do in every M-F relationship right up through marriage.

    That’s the way my own “college marriage” was: we were at her place all the time and she did all kinds of things for both of us. Going back over to my place to clean it was not one of them, though if my place had served as home base I probably would have expected that. As it happens, I did do a lot for her, including some cleaning. But there’s no question that she did more because she was a girl, and girls tend to care more about cleanliness and order. She definitely did.

    I could be counted on to cook a few times a week and do the dishes whenever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Your college relationship sounds like expectations were perfectly reasonable. I did not mean to say that women should never clean the place where they live or spend most of their time. I’ve already expressly stated that living together is completely different – when you share a home, even if it’s technically one person’s place and you’re sleeping there 5 nights a week, you help maintain it. And it sounds like you found ways to contribute at her place.

  • Ramble

    Jason made it clear that he has expectations that a girlfriend will clean for him.

    I, for one, did not read that. What I got was an appreciation for something feminine. So, for instance, had she cooked some meals for him, but no cleaning, his appreciation might have been the same.

    His roommate now wonders why his gf doesn’t clean his apartment.

    Yes, his roommate was able to get a better idea of how shitty his gf really was. That sounds like the normal compare and contrast that most of us do.

  • SayWhaat

    Okay, I just checked out Abbot’s Pinterest, and I have to say:

    *SQUEAALL!!!*

    Those outfits are SO cute and chic, it’s exactly my style!!! I think those girls are just bristling at the use of the word “modest” and the fact that a guy is weighing his opinion on what that constitutes.

    Seriously, these clothes are adorable!

  • Ramble

    IIRC, she knew from the first “morning after” that you thought her number was too high. She was in a one down position from the start, needing to do whatever she could to get from the slut pile to the girlfriend pile. A woman cleaning your bathroom and picking up your dirty socks is clearly trying to demonstrate high relationship value. Sadly, though you appreciated her soapy bubbles, you did not move her to the new pile.

    FAIL.

    Susan, is this where the mild anger is coming from?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, is this where the mild anger is coming from?

      I’m not angry, I just cringe at the strategy this girl used. I do not believe it is accidental that the morning after their ONS, Jason expressed displeasure at her number of 16, and she knew he was wary of making her his gf as a result. I think they dated for four months total, and when he broke up with her he told her it was because she had slept with too many guys. She was devastated, as I recall. I also remember that the reason he even considered a relationship with a girl who went home with him the first night was because she was unusually nurturing and feminine.

  • Ramble

    You know, in four years of blogging, and many, many discussions about how women can show their care and appreciation for a man, not one guy has ever suggested she might clean his apartment.

    And, if some guy, say, like me, had, then what?

    We like when our significant others do things for us. Would tidying the place really be so bad?

  • Lokland

    @Han

    Btw

    +1 to everything you have said.

    Cleaning for a bf is both kind/nice/feminine.
    Appreciated for sure.

    May or may not be necessary for marriage.

    In no case however, do I think cleaning (and any other feminine/kind behaviour) would be considered anything less than a boost to MMV.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    If he is willing to sex up women he doesn’t care about before marriage he will be willing to do the same after marriage too.

    This is too absolutist. Not sure if you meant it that way. I would agree that he is more likely but NAMALT and some of these men do honor their commitments.

    I have, unfortunately, had sex with women I didn’t care about but I will not be out having sex with women I don’t care about when I’m married, both because I will marry someone I do care about and will not have sex outside of that future marriage. While in a relationship I have never had sex with another woman and will not do so.

  • deti

    I didn’t see anywhere where Jason773 was EXPECTING the GF to clean his apartment.

    It’s pretty clear the GF was willing to do it for him and he appreciated her for it; he also did some things for her too.

    Why are people reading things into Jason’s comments that aren’t there? Why is he being demonized for being a man of such value that a feminine GF he isn’t married to was willing to clean his place a few times?

    Jason said her cleaning his place didn’t factor into his decision to break up with her. I find it remarkable and stunning that the female commenters and the blog host will not take his word at face value.

    The pushback here is astonishing, and quite revealing. Her cleaning the apartment was a simple gesture of affection and goodwill that Jason says was reciprocated on a few occasions. Why is that so terrible?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      It’s not Jason’s feelings about his gf cleaning his apartment, it’s his holding his roommate’s gf to his standard of what constitutes nurturing behavior. It’s also the fact that he cites her lack of cleaning the apartment as evidence that she is not worthy of marriage.

      Why are all the men ignoring that expressly stated sentiment? Jason didn’t just tell a sweet story about his gf. He called someone else’s gf a ball busting Jewess for not cleaning.

      Why are people not offended by this?

  • Ramble

    What is outrageous, IMO, is the expectation that a guest will clean your home or tidy it up as a gesture of goodwill, or that guests should ever be judged by such a standard.

    So, some gf tidies my place after I left for work (I leave earlier than she does) and when I get home I notice this and think that she is really nice (i.e. positive judgement) and this is outrageous?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, some gf tidies my place after I left for work (I leave earlier than she does) and when I get home I notice this and think that she is really nice (i.e. positive judgement) and this is outrageous?

      No, what is outrageous is that you go into your roommate Jim’s room and observe that his girlfriend is a bitch for not having tidied his room, and wish that you could tell him not to marry the entitled wench. Because women worthy of marrying show their love and loyalty by getting intimate with your bacteria while you’re not around.

  • Ted D

    Ana – “busy kids don’t join gangs or get pregnant. ”

    Considering where I live and what I’m surrounded by, this is very much why we keep our children busy. ;-)

  • deti

    “That was generous of her, and it’s good that you appreciated it. Did you make sure that all future girlfriends were thumbs up on drawer lining?”

    Wow. The snark here is quite telling too. Susan, why are you so indignant that this GF was willing to do these things for Jason?

  • SayWhaat

    My boyfriend and I both have messy rooms…we’re in a competition to see whose room gets cleaned first. :)

  • Ramble

    Conclusion: Jason’s remarks clearly demonstrate expectation – a woman’s willingness to clean his apartment is a prerequisite for worth. He holds women to the standard of being willing to clean his apartment.

    Susan, I have never met Jason, but I am confident that you are flat out wrong in your interpretation.

    He did not expect her to clean his apartment. What he did expect of a girl who was hoping to become a SAHM (increasingly difficult as you point out) was that she would display nurturing qualities.

    If that means that she tidies up the place every now and then, great. If it is something else, like cooking, great. The other girl, the roommates girl, never, in Jason’s opinion, had not displayed feminine traits and the roommate had seen how other girls treated their BFs and he was jealous, and, in Jason’s opinion, he had good reason to be jealous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The other girl, the roommates girl, never, in Jason’s opinion, had not displayed feminine traits

      And Jason specified two feminine traits: cleaning and cooking.

  • SayWhaat

    One of my good friends helped her boyfriend clean his bathroom. She gagged at the sheer amount of pubes on the floor and complained about it for days, lol.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I think this is a cultural difference I hate cleaning with a fire of two thousand suns and I admire people that do it gladly and good so for me cleaning is a very thoughtful appreciated skill and I wish I could enjoy it and if I could afford a maid I will pay her a million dollars if I could. I’m getting the feeling that “cleaning after someone” rings of “presenting myself in an humiliating position” While in my culture at least is actually something to brag about

    Yeah I definitely agree. I’m half Syrian (on my dad’s side), and grew up with my mom doing ALL the housework because that was basically my dad’s expectation. Perhaps because that was the model in my house, I’ve noticed that when it comes to cleaning, I sort of carry it into my relationship, without asking that my BF “pull some of his own weight.”

    In any sense, I don’t necessarily see that having a GF who cleans is Jason’s expectation. IMO the way he described it can be compared to a job candidate who has more than the basic requirements requested on the job announcement.

  • deti

    “If a guy wants me to clean his place, then he’ll just have to get a ring and get us a place to clean. Otherwise, I do not have to clean his place. I can’t think of having a guy clean my place and really find it amazing some guys would expect you to clean their place.”

    If a girl wants me to support her and her children, then she’ll just have to agree to marry me and stay married to me and give me good sex, till death do us part. Otherwise, I don’t owe her anything — no dates, no nice evenings out on my dime, no need to show I’m capable of supporting her.

    “you can cook and clean, and be great in bed (supposedly) and still get dumped.”

    You can take her out for nice evenings, spend money on her, meet her parents, introduce her to your parents, be the “nice guy” she says she wants, be a great, high value man, and still get dumped.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a girl wants me to support her and her children, then she’ll just have to agree to marry me and stay married to me and give me good sex, till death do us part.

      A very reasonable expectation, IMO.

  • deti

    “If a guy wants me to clean his place, then he’ll just have to get a ring and get us a place to clean. Otherwise, I do not have to clean his place. I can’t think of having a guy clean my place and really find it amazing some guys would expect you to clean their place.”

    If a girl wants me to support her and her children, then she’ll just have to agree to marry me and stay married to me and give me good sex, till death do us part. Otherwise, I don’t owe her anything — no dates, no nice evenings out on my dime, no need to show I’m capable of supporting her. I really find it amazing that some women would expect a man to support her and give her nice evenings out.

  • J

    What Mireille says about giving this kind of selfless devotion without receiving it in return leading to bitterness is very true, in my observation. Note all these guys writing here about receiving the benefits of these girls giving them cleaning, cooking, nurturing (in addition to sex) are NOT talking about marrying these girls.

    LOL. You noticed that too, huh?

    I am not saying “Be selfish!” or “Don’t be feminine!” Quite the contrary:

    Cherish your femininity enough to bestow it upon someone who will commit to you. Give from a place that where making others happy brings you happiness as well. The man who will truly love you will not want a doormat.

    Well said!

    In other words, Self-respect: Use it or lose it.

  • Mireille

    @ Deti

    If a girl wants me to support her and her children, then she’ll just have to agree to marry me and stay married to me and give me good sex, till death do us part. Otherwise, I don’t owe her anything — no dates, no nice evenings out on my dime, no need to show I’m capable of supporting her.
    You can take her out for nice evenings, spend money on her, meet her parents, introduce her to your parents, be the “nice guy” she says she wants, be a great, high value man, and still get dumped.

    And you know what, I agree with all this! On some level, arranged marriage looks very good in my book (provided some levels of attractiveness, education and agreeability are met, of course). However, I’m pretty sure few men would line up for that deal. You guys love your freedom and test-drive and what not.
    The way I see it, wanting to be a SAHM has nothing to do with demonstrating you can clean your bf’s toilet. How about demonstrating that you can keep your own place clean? I’m fine with my man finding my place so clean, it is a true cup of fresh air for him to visit me. This in my book is what might constitute for him an incentive to want to live with me, not my propension or willingness to clean his place. I’d gladly do things for US, just make US happen and then critique when expectations are not met.

    Finally, comparisons lead to expectations, seriously! That jewish roommate had no expectations of the sort before Jason’s gf did those things. He wasn’t thinking his woman was lacking in some way (that we know of). Now even J will be comparing and somewhat equating care and attention from a girlfriend as cleaning for him. The devil is in the detail. “John used to buy me jewelry and trips, I never asked him anything but I sure liked it; David never or rarely does that. I wonder if I’m not missing out”. That’s basically the internal process now. Next thing you know, we’ll be dismissing guys who don’t buy trips and rocks. The preference has become an expectation. Expectations are not all bad, but you have to be aware that you have them. That is all!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This is too absolutist. Not sure if you meant it that way. I would agree that he is more likely but NAMALT and some of these men do honor their commitments.

    Yeah and some people win the lotto. Would you advice anyone to invest their savings on lotto tickets?

    I have, unfortunately, had sex with women I didn’t care about but I will not be out having sex with women I don’t care about when I’m married, both because I will marry someone I do care about and will not have sex outside of that future marriage. While in a relationship I have never had sex with another woman and will not do so.

    Well the fact that you consider this unfortunately does gives you a more chance of following through as long as you stop doing it of course. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour if you really think this is not good and your actions match this thoughts then you have less chances of straying. Sadly I never met a man like that before, everyone I know who got used to variety of partner and sex with women just to quench their thirst before marriage couldn’t just stay with one woman for long. Hence whoever created this concept of “sowing their oats” didn’t considered that the fields grow again and constantly, YMMV.

  • JP

    @Anacaona:

    “Sadly I never met a man like that before, everyone I know who got used to variety of partner and sex with women just to quench their thirst before marriage couldn’t just stay with one woman for long. Hence whoever created this concept of “sowing their oats” didn’t considered that the fields grow again and constantly, YMMV.”

    Isn’t one of the issues that keeps coming up here in commentland that a high N girl would have the same problem of staying with “one man”?

    That seems to be a source of a lot of the angst with the younger crowd.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    No, the fact that I have not cheated and that I was able to be celibate for many years when I was a voluntary virgin show me that I will be faithful. That, and combined with the fact that it’s my decision and mindset that I will be faithful.

    The men you’re talking about in the DR and elsewhere don’t have the mindset of being faithful so they won’t be.

    These are two types of men:

    1) Can have some casual sex before marriage and has the mindset and history of being faithful when he has been in a relationship.

    2) Always looking for variety and doesn’t intend on being faithful in marriage.

  • Mireille

    @ Susan

    Jasonalso predicts his roommate will marry this woman. He may have envied Jason his tidy room, but Jason’s girl is long gone and his girlfriend still sleeps in his room, tidy or not.

    You know what Susan, I thought the exact same thing but didn’t want to say it.

  • deti

    Susan:

    Jason gets to have whatever standard he wants for “nurturing”.

    I suspect you are objecting to his having a standard for “nurturing” and/or what is and is not marriageworthy, and nexting the GF for not meeting those standards — which he’s entitled to do.

    Or is your objection that Jason wouldn’t move a slut from the slut pile to the relationship/marriage pile, because he assessed her as not marriageworthy — which he’s entitled to do.

    Or is your objection to Jason’s evaluating his roommate’s GF by his own standards — which he’s entitled to do.

    Or are you objecting to the perceived anti-semitism interspersed into his remarks?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I suspect you are objecting to his having a standard for “nurturing” and/or what is and is not marriageworthy, and nexting the GF for not meeting those standards — which he’s entitled to do.

      Incorrect. I respect Jason’s right to do this.

      Or is your objection that Jason wouldn’t move a slut from the slut pile to the relationship/marriage pile, because he assessed her as not marriageworthy — which he’s entitled to do.

      No. I pity her for what I suspect was trying to sway his assessment via bathroom cleaning, but that’s on her.

      Or is your objection to Jason’s evaluating his roommate’s GF by his own standards — which he’s entitled to do.

      He evaluated his roommate’s gf and most Gen Y women by these standards. He is entitled to do this, but not entitled to expect no rebuttal. They are not reasonable standards for what constitutes feminine, nurturing behavior in my view.

      As I said, I have never heard any man say anywhere, including on this blog before today, that bathroom cleaning makes someone a good gf. And it’s a question I have asked many times.

      Or are you objecting to the perceived anti-semitism interspersed into his remarks?

      I am arguing against his larger point, and my view is not colored by his anti-Semitism, though I do find it extremely objectionable.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Jason didn’t just tell a sweet story about his gf. He called someone else’s gf a ball busting Jewess for not cleaning.”

    Because its true.
    If you suck in comparison to someone else then its reasonable to expect for them to think you suck.

    Thats not unreasonable or unrealistic.

    I’ve had people call me a less valuable husband because I’m short, non-monagmomous and probably a few other things.

    Guess what, their right.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    No, if Jason presented this as a quirky, wacky thing he has – I love a gal with a toilet brush in her hand! – I wouldn’t have a problem with it. He expressly stated that “there are no good women”, essentially – no nurturing Gen Y women, and then defined nurturing as cleaning his apartment while he is not there.

    My rebuttal is against his definition of nurturing, and to express that his expectations are inappropriate for men in general, though of course he is free to put that requirement out there for every woman he dates.

    He specifically derided the roommates gf for not cleaning. He applied his standard to someone else’ gf by defining “nurturing,” and then found his friend’s gf unworthy of commitment.

    It’s not Jason’s feelings about his gf cleaning his apartment, it’s his holding his roommate’s gf to his standard of what constitutes nurturing behavior. It’s also the fact that he cites her lack of cleaning the apartment as evidence that she is not worthy of marriage.

    Why are all the men ignoring that expressly stated sentiment? Jason didn’t just tell a sweet story about his gf. He called someone else’s gf a ball busting Jewess for not cleaning.

    Why are people not offended by this?

    Exactly this Susan.

    + 1,000 times this Susan

    The situation would be like me dating a man who took me on elaborate fancy trips, while my friend’s boyfriend didn’t. Would it be okay for me to deduce that her boyfriend is not worthy of commitment because he doesn’t take her on similar trips?

    It’s not her place. She doesn’t have to clean it. If she wants to clean it, that’s her choice. I still don’t understand why it was considered a negative strike against her, however. I discussed this last night by describing “pluses/bonuses” and “value neutral things”.

  • JP

    I’m too tired to be offended right now.

    I’m also too tired to figure out what I might theoretically be offended by in some post earlier in this thread.

    It’s something about cleaning and a roommate and a not cleaning girlfriend and then something went horribly wrong, some girl had sex with 14 other men, and then Jason did something horrible and his apartment got cleaned and nurtured with feminine wiles while there was some sort of ONS taking place with someone other than his roommate’s girlfriend.

  • Mireille

    @ Deti,

    I think the “problem” is that Jason himself doesn’t realize he has expectations. We’re fine with expectations, as I said, just know that you have them. Don’t go around saying, “I’m totally down for whatever, but I won’t do x, y, z.” Everybody is entitled to what they believe, however they should know they have expectations, and not project them on other people. I disagree with Jason but I know he has no problem finding women meeting his checklist. No amount of preaching will change that.

  • JP

    You know, while everyone here is arguing about Jason’s tidy apartment, there is another Millennial female out there who just aged.

    And that’s pretty sad when you think about it.

    Nobody wants to get older.

    Why do we have to get older?

  • Sassy6519

    My major point is that people should be aware of their expectations/preferences, and they should let their partners know what those expectations/preferences are.

    If a man wants a woman who will clean up after him, that is his prerogative. I do find it foolish, however, for a man to complain about a woman not cleaning up after him if she doesn’t know that he has that expectation for her. If a woman cleaning up after you is that important to you fellas, just tell the women in your lives that. Let them know that you have that preference/desire/expectation. That will give them a chance to make you happy.

    I don’t understand the sulking about a woman who doesn’t clean for you , when she doesn’t know that you want her to, and she isn’t obligated to do it.

  • J

    He called someone else’s gf a ball busting Jewess for not cleaning. …Why are people not offended by this?

    See my post #576 regarding the tendency of minority group men to project the same stereotypes onto the womenfolk as the majority culture projects on to the whole group. It’s sort of a desperation to fit in with the majority culture, sometimes coupled with a tendency to see a relationship with a majority group female as a sign of success, IMHO.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    FWIW I don’t consider nurturing to be the same as cooking and cleaning. My mother was not nurturing whatsoever. She never expressed affection, but she did cook and clean very well. She yelled at me for hours at a time and was verbally abusive.

    I don’t think a guy would prefer a cold and impersonal maid/cook over a loving woman.

    About self-respect: my husband treats me with tremendous respect and love, and he would never order me around or force me to do anything. He truly wants me to be happy. Interestingly, this attitude makes me want to do stuff for him even more. Doing stuff for him makes me happy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He truly wants me to be happy. Interestingly, this attitude makes me want to do stuff for him even more. Doing stuff for him makes me happy.

      Which is the opposite of expectations and keeping a ledger. Love should inspire us to generosity. In fact, that’s easy, it’s being generous with unlovable people that is the real challenge.

      I have found that when both parties are generous in love, neither has cause for complaint. We only complain when we feel that we are giving more than we are getting over time.

  • Sai

    Re: cleaning for special guy
    I used to fight with family members about how things did or didn’t get cleaned, so I have no problem with this. After we get married, because
    Emily: “you never know when people have some sort of “system” in place that you’d be messing with.”
    Before, he will just receive free food and presents.

    Re: modesty
    There was nothing to be offended at. None of it’s for me, but I read the blog and it was SO non-judgmental I almost wish it had some fire ‘n brimstone posts. Screwing up X leads to Y consequence, that sort of thing. I always laughed at Abbot’s multi penis comments.
    (I would like to “win hella bread,” though.)

    @Hope, SayWhaat
    “SayWhaat, I saw a meme that was the overbearing Asian parent saying, “You A-sian, not B-sian!”
    I apologize in advance.
    http://memegenerator.net/High-Expectations-Asian-Father
    To make things less awkward, here’s a black guy.
    http://memegenerator.net/Successful-Black-Man
    And a white guy (although this sort comes in all colors).
    http://memegenerator.net/Scumbag-Steve
    I have yet to locate a Latino guy.

    Also: “My only problem with the show is that the Latin one Ma-Ti got the lame power: Heart :(
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway
    The only concrete memories I have are the game show episode, Captain Pollution, and Linka’s cousin O.D.ing, which I watched when I was 7 or 8. I never did drugs.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Wait, wait, wait…

    @ Susan

    No. I pity her for what I suspect was trying to sway his assessment via bathroom cleaning, but that’s on her.

    Let’s put the fault where it lies.

    She was a slut, by Jason’s definition. Too slutty to be considered for marriage.

    Because of her rather good girl game and nurturing qualities, Jason actually had a pretty deep emotional attachment with her. Apparently enough that he decided to stop engaging in casual sex, enough that he was actually crying over the girl, enough that he is now focused on finding a girl with those positive attributes…

    But isn’t a slut.

    To me that communicates a few things:
    -Girl game and nurturing/home-making qualities are extremely powerful and extremely in demand by men. Enough so that once he has a taste of it, it shifts his whole outlook, enough so that it can make a slut seem like a good girl.
    -Even if you are a good girl…hell, scratch that, even if you are Lvl 100 God-Woman, if you are perceived as being loose, you are in deep shit. It is enough to overwhelm EVERYTHING else about you.
    -These nurturing qualities must be extremely rare in modern women, or Jason would have already experienced it. A girl with effective girl game and nurturing qualities is worth her weight in gold.

  • Ramble

    He specifically derided the roommates gf for not cleaning.

    No, he gave two simple examples of cooking and cleaning. I am guessing that does not define “feminine” in total for Jason.

    No, what is outrageous is that you go into your roommate Jim’s room and observe that his girlfriend is a bitch for not having tidied his room, and wish that you could tell him not to marry the entitled wench.

    Damn, I am speaking a lot for Jason, and I don’t like being in that position, but I am commenting more than he is and I am surprised by how mad you have gotten and how off your understanding was/is, so, here I go …

    I am guessing that he was not inspecting the roommates room. They are roommates, they see each others room. I am also guessing that Jason did not have some sort of checklist that this girl had to meet for him to deem her “Feminine”. I am guessing that over the days and weeks and months of regular interaction that he decided, based on the whole package, what he liked and disliked about her. I am willing to bet that she did the same for Jason. It is natural.

    And that, between his own perception and what he heard from his roommate, he concluded that she was not that nurturing, that she was not that feminine. But not that, “Well, that bitch should have cleaned his room, but, she didn’t. So, no ring for her.”

    Here, again, I am going to put some more words in Jason’s mouth. Let’s say his roommate gets a new gf, who is somewhat messy, though not in a “I am disrespecting your home” way, and she has not yet learned how to cook. However, Jason sees her as being nice, kind, caring, unselfish, charming, loyal, patient and understanding and, in general, a very good girlfriend. I am guessing that he would not care about the lack of cleaning, especially if his roommate seemed over the moon about this new girl and could not wait to “lock it down”.

    And Jason specified two feminine traits: cleaning and cooking.

    Yes, these are often considered to be examples of concrete things that females do to provide a nicer and nourishing environment for their loved ones. Does that mean that some girl MUST tidy up after her bf at her bf’s apartment, no less? Of course not.

    But, had she done this, it would have been an example of feminine unselfishness.

    Again, that girl that lined the whole kitchen in my brothers apartment (it was not even my apartment), this was just a wonderful gesture. And, it is true that she did not get a ring out of it, but, that is another story. But, we thought very highly of her for it and really appreciated it.

  • Ramble

    FWIW I don’t consider nurturing to be the same as cooking and cleaning. My mother was not nurturing whatsoever. She never expressed affection, but she did cook and clean very well.

    Sure.

    You could have a male chef who is also a neat-freak and not think of him as being feminine. It is not some sort of perfect one-to-one relationship. However, in general, being interested in loved ones clean/tidy/nice environment and that they are well fed from home cooked meals is often the domain of girls and a signal of traditional femininity, whether or not the person performing these actions are nurturing or not.

  • Reave

    Well based upon Jason’s standards/definition of a nurturing and caring girlfriend who would make great wifey material would be a Martha Stewart type. Stewart has been described as an abusive wife, negligent mother, or egocentric tyrant whose path to success is littered with angry former associates and embittered ex-friends, but hey she cooks and cleans.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    The situation would be like me dating a man who took me on elaborate fancy trips, while my friend’s boyfriend didn’t. Would it be okay for me to deduce that her boyfriend is not worthy of commitment because he doesn’t take her on similar trips?

    No, you’re zooming in on one particular item in the whole list. The thing is that she doesn’t do ANYTHING nice and feminine for her boyfriend.

    I bet she sure does expect nice gifts and dinners from him, though.

    Some nice things I did for my SO this weekend:
    -cooked her breakfast all three days
    -took her out to dinner a few times
    -took her to a little pottery painting place like she wanted to
    -watched a few hours of Glee with her
    -had a conversation about her political thoughts, because she wants to develop them (she isn’t quite as knowledgable about them as me and likes to use me as a sounding board)

    What you are doing is if Jason zoomed in on the specific Glee thing and saying you have unrealistic expectations because you expect men to watch Glee. In reality, this is nothing of the sort, I can do MANY nice things for my SO, and DO do many nice things for my SO, and women should expect their husband-bound LTRs to do something that is also nice for them.

    If he just comes over and watches tv while you cook for him and then you have sex, maybe you should consider raising your expectations a little.

  • Ramble

    My major point is that people should be aware of their expectations/preferences, and they should let their partners know what those expectations/preferences are.

    Sassy, I get your point, but, it depends. If you prefer to be treated with kindness and decency, well, you should not have to voice that. However, if you also prefer some quiet in the morning because you are a slow riser, then, you might need to voice that to the other, and that would be understandable.

    If a man wants a woman who will clean up after him, that is his prerogative.

    Again, I think that so many of the girls here really misread the story. It was not that Jason or the roommate wanted certain specific actions from their GFs (“you better clean up after me”) but that Jason saw his GF do this and really appreciated it (even if it did not prove to be the straw that broke the ring-giving camel’s back) and his roommate saw her do things like this as well, and saw other girls treat their bfs with unselfish, feminine/nurturing things like this and noticed the greener grass.

    Does this mean that either was right in their assessment of this girl? Who knows. But, one (Jason) described her as lacking femininity and her BF complained, at times, as well. Are these complaints enough to prevent him from proposing? Jason doesn’t think so, but he also thinks that his roommate could do better (if I read it correctly).

  • Ramble

    See my post #576 regarding the tendency of minority group men to project the same stereotypes onto the womenfolk as the majority culture projects on to the whole group.

    J, it’s also possible that he feels that some stereotypes exist for a reason. I know that some of the stereotypes that exist about my demographic are accurate.

  • Sassy6519

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    No, you’re zooming in on one particular item in the whole list. The thing is that she doesn’t do ANYTHING nice and feminine for her boyfriend.

    What you are doing is if Jason zoomed in on the specific Glee thing and saying you have unrealistic expectations because you expect men to watch Glee. In reality, this is nothing of the sort, I can do MANY nice things for my SO, and DO do many nice things for my SO, and women should expect their husband-bound LTRs to do something that is also nice for them.

    If he just comes over and watches tv while you cook for him and then you have sex, maybe you should consider raising your expectations a little.

    I am only following Jason’s example here. If you have a bone to pick, pick it with him.

    He could have easily just said that his roommate’s girlfriend was unfeminine and mean-spirited. You would not have heard a peep out of any of the ladies here.

    Jason went on to use the topics of her lack of cooking and cleaning as evidence that she isn’t feminine. He pigeonholed himself there. Many of the women here, including myself, have qualms with his thought that his roommates girlfriend was an unfeminine woman not deserving of commitment because she doesn’t clean and cook for her boyfriend.

    As I said before, he himself zoomed in on those two topics (cooking and cleaning). My example still stands because it sets up the exact same paradigm.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Sassy, I get your point, but, it depends. If you prefer to be treated with kindness and decency, well, you should not have to voice that. However, if you also prefer some quiet in the morning because you are a slow riser, then, you might need to voice that to the other, and that would be understandable.

    That’s the thing though. This isn’t basic human kindness/decency that we are dealing with here.

    An opinion has been submitted stating that the particular girlfriend in question is unfeminine and unworthy of commitment because she does not cook or clean for her boyfriend. She does not know that her boyfriend would like her to do that for him. It’s not her obligation to do so, and she doesn’t know about the expectation, so she hasn’t done it. If cleaning/cooking mean that much to Jason/Jason’s roommate, why don’t they speak up and tell her? Why don’t they let her know that they would like her to clean for them?

    I know the answer to this. They don’t want to ask for it because they know that such a request will garner pushback. They don’t want to request that she clean/cook because they don’t want to deal with the aftermath. Instead, it appears that they would rather not mention it to her, and sulk about the place not being cleaned. I say “boo hoo” to this.

    I have the exact same problem with women who don’t let their partners know about their expectations/desires, yet sulk about things not being done. Men are not mind readers, and neither are women. If you would like your partner to do something for you, ask. Don’t expect them to be a mind reader and grow frustrated at their lack of action.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The men you’re talking about in the DR and elsewhere don’t have the mindset of being faithful so they won’t be.

    The sad part is that many of them did intended to be faithful after marriage, they never saw coming the lack of willpower once you tasted it and how much they came to despise their wives because they were only one woman and not many.

    These are two types of men:

    1) Can have some casual sex before marriage and has the mindset and history of being faithful when he has been in a relationship.

    2) Always looking for variety and doesn’t intend on being faithful in marriage.

    I rather married the 3) Only has sex in a relationship, never casual and is also faithful while married.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Considering where I live and what I’m surrounded by, this is very much why we keep our children busy.

    Good job:Idleness is the root of mischief

    Isn’t one of the issues that keeps coming up here in commentland that a high N girl would have the same problem of staying with “one man”?

    I’m an equal opportunity slut shamer ;)

  • SayWhaat

    -watched a few hours of Glee with her

    Lmao, you keep going on about this. Would you like a purple heart? :)

    (Being totally serious, btw. Introduce your gf to some higher-quality television, damn.)

  • Ramble

    This isn’t basic human kindness/decency that we are dealing with here.

    Right, but I did want to make sure that the distinction was made.

    An opinion has been submitted stating that the particular girlfriend in question is unfeminine and unworthy of commitment because she does not cook or clean for her boyfriend.

    No, I really don’t think Jason was saying that. I think that he was simply giving two examples or things that help make her “unfeminine” or, maybe better put, “not as feminine as would be desirable”.

    Those 2 things were just examples, not defining characteristics.

    She does not know that her boyfriend would like her to do that for him.

    We don’t know that.

    It’s not her obligation to do so

    She, nor is any other gf or bf, is not obligated to do anything. I personally think that word will continue to throw off the debate.

  • Ion

    “See my post #576 regarding the tendency of minority group men to project the same stereotypes onto the womenfolk as the majority culture projects on to the whole group. It’s sort of a desperation to fit in with the majority culture, sometimes coupled with a tendency to see a relationship with a majority group female as a sign of success, IMHO.”

    J, THIS :-).

    Likewise, if men of the particular group are failing, it is even more important that they get a trophy of how they are able to compete with other men. They feel like a man that way. Totally OK with me, but the tendency to bring up stereotypes to deflect from this fact (using every stereotype they can imagine) is what I find offensive. That they tell women to keep trying harder when they really want women who are not them.

    Notice that jewish women, italian women, black women, hispanic women, etc., carry similar stereotypes fundamentally (overbearing, demanding, etc.,) when none of these women had feminist movements! Their main problem is not being blond/shiska/light, or whatever. And the women know it. Which is why nose jobs are common with jewish women, hair straightening with black women, skin bleaching with latina women, blond highlights with Italian women, etc.,. Suddenly those “stereotypes” fade away, and the men in their ethnicities find them more attractive the closer they look to the trophy blond ideal. I know its more complex than that, but those are just a few examples I can think of.

    It’s also important to note that asian men claimed asian women were too dark and demanding before they found themselves without partners. God forbid you looked fully Vietnamese or darker skinned Filipino. I’ve heard this from several asian women over the years.

    Self-hatred is already a scary thing, but add mens inability to compete, and the beauty standard in American media gone global, and its pathetic.

    I saw that comment directed at “Jewess” and stopped reading the comment altogether, because I already know that game. Especially with all the orthodox/moderate jewish women I know of who are excellent homemakers! Come on.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    Jason went on to use the topics of her lack of cooking and cleaning as evidence that she isn’t feminine. He pigeonholed himself there. Many of the women here, including myself, have qualms with his thought that his roommates girlfriend was an unfeminine woman not deserving of commitment because she doesn’t clean and cook for her boyfriend.

    + 1

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I know the answer to this. They don’t want to ask for it because they know that such a request will garner pushback. They don’t want to request that she clean/cook because they don’t want to deal with the aftermath. Instead, it appears that they would rather not mention it to her, and sulk about the place not being cleaned. I say “boo hoo” to this.

    If by “pushback” you mean “raise a shit storm.” Something none of the guys here consider controversial is now being treated as WWIII in gender relations.

    A lot of the guys here are telling you the same thing: cleaning is just ONE thing a woman can to demonstrate higher MMP value. She does not HAVE to clean and she is not EXPECTED to clean, but it is a lowest-common denominator trait that most women have and most men will appreciate.

    Jason also said “cutesy.” That’s extremely ambiguous and can mean all sorts of things. He also mentioned cooking. I am at a loss as to why you zoomed in on one thing.

    Here is what is being processed in a male mind:

    Jason: Dude, my girlfriend is nice. She gives me shoulder massages. Plus she cooks for me, she sends me nice e-mails, she asks about my past, and she even cleans my house!
    Cooper: Dude, awesome!
    Ted: Dude, that’s a quality girl you have right there.
    Jason: Dude, Plus, she’s great in bed, too.
    INTJ:Dude, how do I get a girl like that?
    Jason: Dude, one night stand, lol. I liked her so I kept her around.
    Abbott: Dude, that means she has had t3h multi-penis.
    Jason: Dude, you’re right…man, I don’t feel good about multi-penis…I have to dump her.
    Tom: Dude, you’re such an idiot. High N doesn’t mean she’s a bad woman.
    Jason’s Friend: Dude, yeah, I wish my girlfriend would do some of those nice things.
    Cooper: Dude, yeah, it’s hard to just find a girl.
    Jason: Dude, yeah, I know, most girls I meet aren’t feminine. They don’t do any of those nice things for me, and most of the girls I meet don’t have any feminine traits like this girl. It’s really sad, but I can’t settle for multi-penis.
    Abbott: Dude, move to Mexico!

    And then in this male conversation, along comes…

    Sassy: Dude, you expect your woman to CLEAN for you?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LMAO at A Definite Beta Guy’s script, especially the inclusion of Tom.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ SW

    Lmao, you keep going on about this. Would you like a purple heart?

    (Being totally serious, btw. Introduce your gf to some higher-quality television, damn.)

    Lol, sorry, using the most recent example. Working on the higher-quality TV :P

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    ROFL. Love your narrative. :D

  • Sassy6519

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    And then in this male conversation, along comes…

    Sassy: Dude, you expect your woman to CLEAN for you?

    *Shrugs*

    The point I brought up is a valid one. Considering the amount of women on this blog who have voiced similar sentiments as I did, I’m sure that someone else would have started the same line of questioning if I hadn’t. I’m not apologetic about it.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “Because its true.
    If you suck in comparison to someone else then its reasonable to expect for them to think you suck.”

    ROFL! I swear I thought the exact same thing. Great minds think alike! Although in this case if I were you I might be concerned. Thinking like me is not advised. ;-)

  • Ion

    Ana

    “The sad part is that many of them did intended to be faithful after marriage, they never saw coming the lack of willpower once you tasted it and how much they came to despise their wives because they were only one woman and not many.”

    I agree, and it reminds me of how players hate women that provide them with sexual favors and those who reject their advances . To think that even if they did marry they wouldn’t also eventually hate their wives? Of course they would.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I’m not trying to attack you or anything, Sassy. Something rubbed you the wrong way, you asked a question about. That’s cool, no problems.

    But as far as I can tell, no one is asking you to clean.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Can I raise a hand here, one more time as a passing-by spectator, sitting for a while in the back rows, watching that “ready-made-for” college male and female North American broken theater play (which seems to have been badly rewritten for the worst since I last watched it, some 14 years ago)“, without offending anyone, because crudely viewed from a foreign perspective?
    Based on all the fuming/resenting comments coming into play from both sides about such symbolic triffles (long ago solved by “positive feminism”) such as “Cleaning, cooking turns, etc”, I notice one pattern that seems to be coming out of it: Most girls tend to say that they are willing to do “home keeping” once the relationship is on the way to marriage or at least towards what they feel confident enough about something that may eventually lead to what you call there an LTR. (the sentence was already long enough, just like the serpentine expectation, woosh)
    “Hope” summed it up in two sentences.

    “Most guys seem to say that (swearing with hand on their hearts, trying to dodge the bullets) never in the world do they take this “home keeping business” for granted, but apreciate the gesture whenever it’s done spontaneously by a woman, which is in their view a sure sign of femininity, and they say this because most women in America have lost that feminine instinct, and that doesn’t in turn mean they’re either players nor chauvinists, nor does that mean that they’d never also wished to screw until exhaustion if “permitted”… (again, woosh..).
    One possible new post (one answer for each question, like a Quizz):
    What exactly is a player, a womanizer, a Casanova, a cad, a manwhore, etc?
    What is exactly a “manizer”, a temptress, a female conqueror, a slut, a nympho, ?
    What is a Beta, a straight girl, a good boy, a bad girl?
    What is the highest goal in life? Money, career, a modest life, stumping on others for personal gain, taking care of others down on their luck?
    What is most important to you? “me, myself, I”, the community of people, or both?, the white of the eye of a girl that loves you getting coloured in loving emotional red because you’ve done something that touched her to the heart, and because of that you immediately want to take her in your arms and swear you’ll never let her go?
    And, what is love?
    Lots of categorizing ways to define the eternal man/woman dance here.

    Some “fantastic” comments at random:

    Girl: “I see coupling like a job; a boss won’t get the best of me by having me intern for them or work part time or giving me low pay. And I’d actually prefer to be a full time employee so I can make considerable progress and investment, without regret, on the project I’m working on.”

    Guy: “If a girl wants me to support her and her children, then she’ll just have to agree to marry me and stay married to me and give me good sex, till death do us part. Otherwise, I don’t owe her anything.”

    Yes, I know, I picked the most caricatural ones…

    Are things better in Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia? Certainly not, but IMHO not as confused when it comes to genders, and the resentment between the sexes surely not as individualistically misguided. There are many other problems, but elsewhere.
    I guess my next post here should be in the form of another metaphor, should it be a pertinent one :-)
    Sorry for the long post, and this whas not meant as a rant.

  • Ted D

    ADBG – dude! Your narrative was kick ass. ;-)

  • SayWhaat

    ADBG, the thing that is missing from your paraphrased Dude conversation is the insult to the roommate’s gf. That was what most women here were reacting to.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    But you just criticized the Jewess for not doing those very things. If that is not an expectation I don’t know what is.

    Once again a lack of reading comprehension. I didn’t criticize her, I merely stated that my roommate began to have some thoughts bubbling up from the surface. He is a pretty stand up guy by my measurements, so if she doesn’t do cutesy things now, clean, cook or help do other things, I think he realizes it might not get any better with marriage and kids, which he will be supporting for the most part.

    His viewpoint is fair IMO, and I’m pretty shocked by the backlash against it.

  • J

    J, it’s also possible that he feels that some stereotypes exist for a reason. I know that some of the stereotypes that exist about my demographic are accurate.

    Yeah, he might, but it’s still problematic.

    That they tell women to keep trying harder when they really want women who are not them.

    Yes, exactly.

    Notice that jewish women, italian women, black women, hispanic women, etc., carry similar stereotypes fundamentally (overbearing, demanding, etc.,) when none of these women had feminist movements! Their main problem is not being blond/shiska/light, or whatever. And the women know it. Which is why nose jobs are common with jewish women, hair straightening with black women, skin bleaching with latina women, blond highlights with Italian women, etc.,. Suddenly those “stereotypes” fade away, and the men in their ethnicities find them more attractive the closer they look to the trophy blond ideal. I know its more complex than that, but those are just a few examples I can think of.

    It’s not complexion, believe it or not. It’s looking like the ethnic group that’s at the top of the status pyramid, and in America, that’s WASPs. If the Na’vi were at the top of the American pyramid, we’d all paint yourselves blue.

    It’s also about leaving the powerlessness one feels as an “outsider” by latching on to an insider. That’s why the negative characters which are highloghted for all the groups you mentioned have to do with being overbearing or demanding. That’s how all upstart groups are perceived by the powerful.

    It’s also important to note that asian men claimed asian women were too dark and demanding before they found themselves without partners. God forbid you looked fully Vietnamese or darker skinned Filipino. I’ve heard this from several asian women over the years.

    You still see the nagging, dragon lady stereotype as a counterpoint to the submissive one.

    Self-hatred is already a scary thing, but add mens inability to compete, and the beauty standard in American media gone global, and its pathetic.

    Yes.

    I saw that comment directed at “Jewess” and stopped reading the comment altogether, because I already know that game. Especially with all the orthodox/moderate jewish women I know of who are excellent homemakers! Come on.

    And there’s a corresponding stereotype of the asexual, crazy clean Jewish mother who covers the furniture in plastic slipcovers, cooks all day, and makes everyone eat. So poor girl who goes with Jason’s friend can’t win either way.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Jason expressed that he expected his girlfriend to clean his apartment, and indicated that a woman who does not choose to do so is not marriage material. Those expectations – with check box at the side – are what belong in a ledger.

    No I didn’t. Are you going to continue to make things up? Please go find and quote where I said that.

    I said that it was obviously a plus when looking for marriage potential, and it’s just one of many things that show a woman’s feminine, caring side. Plus, when a gf of mine has more of her shit in my bathroom than I do, and he hair is all over the sink and in the shower, then yea, she can clean it. I have no problem there.

  • Ion

    Saywhaat “ADBG, the thing that is missing from your paraphrased Dude conversation is the insult to the roommate’s gf. That was what most women here were reacting to.”

    If it were a happily married male regular, perhaps I would’ve considered: “yeah what really struck me about my wife was that when we were dating she cooked for me, and at one point did my laundry. She stood out to me, and I saw the beauty in her when she did it; it was one of the sweet gestures I paid back with other gestures” etc., etc.,. Hearing that is pretty hard to disagree with.

    Instead I read it and thought “even low quality players want women to clean for them! I THINK NOT!”

  • Iggles

    @ Ion:

    I saw that comment directed at “Jewess” and stopped reading the comment altogether, because I already know that game. Especially with all the orthodox/moderate jewish women I know of who are excellent homemakers! Come on.

    I noticed that too and instantly frowned when I read it.
    I think it’s perfectly fine to date outside of your race or culture, (I am in an IR relationship) but its in poor taste to bash ethnic counterparts of the opposite gender with negative stereotypes.

    @ ABDG:

    And then in this male conversation, along comes…Sassy: Dude, you expect your woman to CLEAN for you?

    Hilarious script. But Sassy may have spoke up first, she wasnt alone in her opinion.

    @ Sassy:

    The point I brought up is a valid one. Considering the amount of women on this blog who have voiced similar sentiments as I did, I’m sure that someone else would have started the same line of questioning if I hadn’t. I’m not apologetic about it.

    + 1000

    Jason and the other guys could look towards the positive with this girl — “she may not have been the one, but she made me realize I want that quality in a wife.”

    It sounds wonderful to male ears.

    But what I, and many of the women here see is — “Hmm, let me get this straight. So this girl was beautiful, loving, cleaned your apartment, went out of her way to be with you and she didn’t make the cut?.In fact, she was dumped for her N being too high. A fact that was disclosed fairly early on. Okay… Why should we be expected to clean apartments that we don’t live in? To demonstrate that we’re wife material? Ha! Tell me this a joke..”

    Sorry guys, but cleaning is icing on the cake. It tastes good, but matters little if the rest of the cake tastes like crap. Cleaning won’t provide a tipping point from “not wife material” –> “wife material” and its value is contextual. A woman you find who cleans is marked up while an unattractive woman who cleans is value neutral..

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What really strikes me about my SO is that she cooks for me. Generally speaking, she doesn’t like cooking at ALL, but she really loves cooking for me and with me. I remember one specific time when I told her that she shouldn’t cook, because I would be coming in late and wasn’t sure what exact time, and I wanted to take her out anyways.

    When I got to her place, my favorite chicken dish was ready along with my favorite wine, and she said she didn’t want me to spend any more money on her :)

    I left work in a hurry one morning. because I was awake with her the night before…when I got back, my bed was made, and there was a lovely note on my pillow!

    Hope that helps, Ion ;)

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    He specifically derided the roommates gf for not cleaning. He applied his standard to someone else’ gf by defining “nurturing,” and then found his friend’s gf unworthy of commitment.

    And she deserved it. The broad has been over 1.5 nights a week for the last year (they were on a 6 month break when I moved in 15months ago) and I honestly can’t recall her once doing the dishes, helping him with his laundry on the weekend, cleaning anything or cooking more than a couple of times. Sorry, but this isn’t an occasional house guest. Her ass should pitch in, especially because I know she expects to be a SAHM (a Jewish thing), and if he decided to look for better I’d give him a high five.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      The broad has been over 1.5 nights a week for the last year (they were on a 6 month break when I moved in 15months ago) and I honestly can’t recall her once doing the dishes, helping him with his laundry on the weekend, cleaning anything or cooking more than a couple of times.

      Her boyfriend invites her over 1.5 nights per week (1.5? How does that work?). Why on earth should she be expected to do his laundry? Why should she clean? She sees him once a week (or so) and you think she should be acting like hired domestic help?

      And what business is it of yours? Who are you to define what makes a good relationship dynamic for him? His relationship has lasted many times over what yours did. If he’s unhappy, he’s obviously free to break up with her.

      Her ass should pitch in, especially because I know she expects to be a SAHM (a Jewish thing)

      Oy vey. Why should she clean his apartment now if she wants to stay home with her children in 5-10 years? How does that logic work? You act as if her being a SAHM is equivalent to her sunbathing at the country club and lunching with girlfriends over Cosmopolitans. Many men want wives who are willing to be SAHMs – you’ve already stated he is resentful that he doesn’t come before her career. It sounds like he has no interest in her being anything but a SAHM.

      I also wonder why you say being a SAHM is a Jewish thing, when 84% of women aspire to it, and only 1.7% of the American population is Jewish. It looks to me like wanting to be a SAHM is a mother thing.

  • Jackie

    @ADBG
    :D

    Ha ha ha! I was laughing so hard at your dialogue! Next time around, make sure you get “woman of experience” for Tom (and reference being a collegiate athlete), maybe a little more NO RINGZ 4 SLUTZ in the Abbott part. :)

  • Jason773

    I still don’t understand why it was considered a negative strike against her, however.

    It’s a negative because the roommate’s gf expects to be a SAHM and have him provide if they go the marriage route. This is a very typical situation in Jewish marriages. It’s a given that working 50-60hrs/wk is harder and more soul crushing than being a SAHM or SAHD, so if she expects the easier route she sure as hell better be worthy of it IMO.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a given that working 50-60hrs/wk is harder and more soul crushing than being a SAHM or SAHD, so if she expects the easier route she sure as hell better be worthy of it IMO.

      Aha! This is so not true! Working 80-100 hours a week as a management consultant was a piece of cake by comparison! You speak from a place of total ignorance – you have no idea what goes into raising children well. Also, why should work be soul crushing? If you feel that way, I urge you to find a different career path. Life is way too short to do something that crushes your soul 50 hours a week.

      If a woman is worthy of mothering your children, she should be worthy of raising them.

      I find your conflating raising children with princess entitlement deeply disturbing.

  • Jackie

    @Ion

    “I agree, and it reminds me of how players hate women that provide them with sexual favors and those who reject their advances . To think that even if they did marry they wouldn’t also eventually hate their wives? Of course they would.”
    ===
    Co-signed.

    Think about: When you say that a woman is of lesser value for sleeping with you, giving you what you want– that by knowing you (in the Biblical sense), her worth is decreased– What does that say about you?

    It’s covered in self-hatred, because by knowing you [the understood you– not YOU, Ion!) in the most intimate way possible it can only be degradation to her that cannot be washed away.

    It’s an extremely strange mindset to me.

  • Jason773

    Jason: Dude, my girlfriend is nice. She gives me shoulder massages. Plus she cooks for me, she sends me nice e-mails, she asks about my past, and she even cleans my house!
    Cooper: Dude, awesome!
    Ted: Dude, that’s a quality girl you have right there.
    Jason: Dude, Plus, she’s great in bed, too.
    INTJ:Dude, how do I get a girl like that?
    Jason: Dude, one night stand, lol. I liked her so I kept her around.
    Abbott: Dude, that means she has had t3h multi-penis.
    Jason: Dude, you’re right…man, I don’t feel good about multi-penis…I have to dump her.
    Tom: Dude, you’re such an idiot. High N doesn’t mean she’s a bad woman.
    Jason’s Friend: Dude, yeah, I wish my girlfriend would do some of those nice things.
    Cooper: Dude, yeah, it’s hard to just find a girl.
    Jason: Dude, yeah, I know, most girls I meet aren’t feminine. They don’t do any of those nice things for me, and most of the girls I meet don’t have any feminine traits like this girl. It’s really sad, but I can’t settle for multi-penis.
    Abbott: Dude, move to Mexico!

    I LOLed really hard.

  • Jackie

    @Jason773

    “His viewpoint is fair IMO, and I’m pretty shocked by the backlash against it.”
    ===
    Jason, I think you are missing the point.

    The point, from my perspective, was that you knew — immediately, from Night 1– that this girl’s N was not what you wanted.

    You knew it, she knew it.

    All her cleaning, cooking, nurturing and scrubbing the bathroom were her ways of telling you, “I am devoting myself to you, please find me worthy.”

    You knew she wasn’t a match from the beginning and took advantage of what she was offering, instead of letting her go give that devotion and care to a man who was capable of loving her back.

    She got attached to you much more that way. Her heart broke harder, in all likelihood, the longer it went on. It would have been far better –for both of you– to stop the relationship once you knew fundamental baseline standards were not being met.

    That is the backlash.

  • Jackie

    @Jason
    “It’s a given that working 50-60hrs/wk is harder and more soul crushing than being a SAHM or SAHD, so if she expects the easier route she sure as hell better be worthy of it IMO.”
    ===
    Jason, how many infants/toddlers have you taken care of, for extended periods of time?

    One of my friends is married to a surgeon, and her job of SAHM to 3 children under 4 is MUCH more exhausting. In addition to the children, keeping the house spotless, cooking and hosting constant houseguests is BEYOND exhausting.

    I’d take a 50-60hr/week over a 168hr/wk in a heartbeat! ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      One of my friends is married to a surgeon, and her job of SAHM to 3 children under 4 is MUCH more exhausting. In addition to the children, keeping the house spotless, cooking and hosting constant houseguests is BEYOND exhausting.

      I once told my husband that as a SAHM, every day was like moving day. It was that exhausting. He was skeptical until one time I came down with full-blown influenza and was sick for three weeks. He wound up taking a week off for the worst of it – he literally could not wait to go back to work. He said he had no idea how I could do it.

      As I said earlier, it’s because we focus so much on giving our kids enrichment, and keeping them safe. My mother sent us out to play in the neighborhood after breakfast, knowing we wouldn’t be seen again till lunch. Same with our afternoons. We had ZERO adult supervision. The moms smoked cigarettes and drank coffee while we roamed. It’s not like that anymore.

  • Jason773

    Jackie,

    No, I didn’t. Because of her qualities, which ADBG alluded to, I really tried to give her a chance and see how my feelings and thoughts developed. The N thing wasn’t the entire story anyways. I was more upset about the hypocrisy behind it, as she was raised in a very strict Catholic household, would have probably wanted a church wedding and wanted to raise children Catholic. She even brought me to church one Sunday morning, because I agreed, but I told her that I didn’t want to go anymore after that was over. If she had kept true to her moral teachings and we had somehow met and formed a relationship, I probably would have married her and had no problem giving in on the religion thing, because it’s not that important to me anyways.

    It was obviously going to sting me in untold ways if I had to see her walk down the aisle as her family thinks I’m the only guy, or maybe second guy she has ever slept with, when in reality that was far from the truth.

  • Jackie

    @J (783)

    Exactly! Everyone should read this comment.

  • Jason773

    And Jackie, I stick by my thought that a SAH parent has the much easier job (why else would 84% of women polled want that even after they have achieved all the letters after their name?). I’ve heard that firsthand from a few moms (and one dad), so I’ll take my anecdotes over yours.

  • Ion

    @ Ramble

    “J, it’s also possible that he feels that some stereotypes exist for a reason. I know that some of the stereotypes that exist about my demographic are accurate.”

    Ever notice that with men of every ethnicity, NONE of the negative stereotypes about themselves are true, only the ones about the women in their group are true?

    J

    “That’s why the negative characters which are highloghted for all the groups you mentioned have to do with being overbearing or demanding. That’s how all upstart groups are perceived by the powerful.”

    Yeah exactly. It’s used to get people to shut up, and because people want to be accepted, it usually works. “I have no problems ignoring YOUR treatment, why can’t you ignore it? You’re sensitive and bitter!” It’s pretty hilarious how common the same stereotypes circulate. Let’s not forget that factory workers were once called “demanding”, when they protested for the 8 hour workday in the 1800s.

    “there’s a corresponding stereotype of the asexual, crazy clean Jewish mother who covers the furniture in plastic slipcovers, cooks all day, and makes everyone eat. So poor girl who goes with Jason’s friend can’t win either way.”

    She probably already knows, if she ever looks around and sees jewish men married to non-jewish girls who don’t clean and only eat takeout. Ethnic men can be quite forgiving of promiscuity, laziness, ugliness, loudness, etc., for the thrill of showing other men that they can get a woman who closely resembles the dominant group. Miss Ethnic Homemaker with her Swiffer mop doesn’t provide that aphrodisiac.

  • Jackie

    @Jason

    “If she had kept true to her moral teachings and we had somehow met and formed a relationship, I probably would have married her and had no problem giving in on the religion thing, because it’s not that important to me anyways.”
    ==
    Jason, thanks for filling in the details here. Judaism is matrilineal, right? Can you see your family being with this? (Let’s assume the girl is as pure as the driven snow, just hypothetically.)

    Even if practicing isn’t important to you, the Jewish culture has got to be part of your family’s core identity. I can’t imagine they’d be thrilled– do you have insights about this?

    Also: If she was being “true to moral teaching” you would have dumped her. There is no way you would continue to see a girl who was adhering to her faith, as it calls for chastity.

    It seems to me, that you were trying to override your gut feelings, from almost the beginning. It’s great that you were seriously trying to give her a chance, but when it comes down to this kind of stuff I think it’s cruel to be kind. Especially when someone is scrubbing your toilet in a show of devotion.