Don’t be Carrie
The Millennials, or Generation Y, are currently aged 10-28. The oldest are just reaching the average age at marriage, and though 70% of them plan to marry and 74% want children, there are indications that many women are frustrated with their dating lives. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman) What’s the problem? Their careers.
In Why Are So Many Professional Millennial Women Unable To Find Dateable Men?, Larissa Faw of Forbes writes:
My Millennial-aged girl friends and I never doubted that we would accomplish all of our life goals. Everything, thus far, has pretty much gone according to our plans. We were accepted into the right college, landed the dream job, and developed a network of amazing friends. Our apartments are beautifully decorated and we have closets full of stylish clothing. Romance hasn’t been entirely sidelined, but we don’t waste our time trying to cultivate a relationship unless someone is really amazing.
But now, a growing number of Millennial women are beginning to fret over the unanticipated consequences of prioritizing our careers before love. And I only need to look at my group of friends to see this reality. Again and again, year after year, my successful, gorgeous, and amazing friends remain kiss-less on New Year’s Eve. And on Valentine’s Day. And on the 4th of July. The only dateable men we encounter are either attached, gay, or otherwise involved in “it’s complicated” situations. We are coming to the realization that we were unwittingly playing a game of musical chairs — while everyone was pairing up, those focused on our careers are left standing alone.
I’ve been using the musical chairs metaphor since I began blogging – it’s been clear for two decades that women were outperforming men in education, and the current college ratio of 57% female, 43% male makes it undeniable that we have a serious problem with marriage prospects.
One third of today’s female college graduates will not marry a college educated male.
There are two reasons why Millennial women at the upper end of the age range are single and lonely:
1. They want high achieving men, and there aren’t enough of them to go around.
2. They are ambitious in their careers but lazy about their love lives.
For one, it’s not as if we are holding out for Jake Gyllenhaal, but we do have certain non-negotiable expectations for potential mates that include college degrees and white-collar jobs. Life has always gone according to our plans, so why wouldn’t we land a man with these (reasonable) requirements?
This unwillingness to settle for less than we think we deserve is joined by a lax attitude towards searching for potential mates. We’re busy dominating the world. We don’t have time to hang out at bars. While some of us explore online dating or take a more proactive approach, the majority of Millennial women have long assumed we would meet Prince Charming via friends, or through their own social circles.
There’s nothing women can do about the sex ratio in college, but they can certainly be strategic in their search for a mate. Indeed, it is not a random game of musical chairs. By making the right choices, you can get a tipoff on when the music is about to stop.
How Millennial Women Really Feel About Their Careers
Faw observes that many young women are burning out at work by age 30:
Today, 53% of corporate entry-level jobs are held by women, a percentage that drops to 37% for mid-management roles and 26% for vice presidents and senior managers, according to McKinsey research.
She notes that “Many also didn’t think of their lives beyond landing the initial first job…Even those who did plot out their lives past the initial first career have unrealistic expectations about full-time employment. It’s not as if these women expected their jobs to be parties and good times, but many underestimated the actual day-to-day drudgery.”
More importantly:
While earlier generations may have opted out of the workforce through marriage or motherhood, these paths aren’t viable for these self-sufficient women, who either are still single or unwilling to be fully supported by men.
Meghan Casserley, in Is ‘Opting Out’ The New American Dream For Working Women? confirms that most working women (not just Millennials) want to step off the career track:
At a moment in history when the American conversation seems to be obsessed with bringing attention to women in the workplace (check out “The End of Men,” or Google “gender paygap” for a primer), it seems a remarkable chasm between what we’d like to see (more women in the corporate ranks) and what we’d like for ourselves (getting out of Dodge). But it’s true: according to our survey, 84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to.
“I think what we’re seeing here is a backlash over the pressure we’ve seen for women to perform, perform, perform both at work and at home,” says Leslie Morgan-Steiner, the author of Mommy Wars: Stay-at-Home and Career Moms Face Off on Their Choices, Their Lives, Their Families. “Over the past three to five years we’ve seen highly educated women—who we’d imagine would be the most ambitious—who are going through med school, getting PhDs with the end-goal in mind of being at home with their kids by age 30.”
Arguably the most famous working mom in corporate America today, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, wants women to stop dropping out. In her widely viewed TED Talk, Why We Have Too Few Women Leaders, Sandberg tells women the most important thing is to “Keep your foot on the gas pedal!” and not take any more time off for kids than is absolutely necessary. She holds herself up as a model of a loving and involved mother who also happens to have a big job. However, close viewing of the Talk reveals the following inconsistency:
“My daughter, who’s three…” (early in the talk)
“I have a 5 year old son and a two year old daughter.” (end of the talk)
This is a woman who does not know the age of her own child.
Kay Hymowitz, in The Plight of the Alpha Female acknowledges that Sandberg’s exhortations are futile.
Feminists have come up with some theories to explain the dearth of women in the C-suite: those in the running would necessarily be aggressive, a trait that men in power don’t like to see in women; executives and boards don’t believe that women are capable of the highest-octane work; women lack men’s sense of entitlement in the pursuit of fame and fortune. But “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All,” a recent, widely discussed Atlantic cover story, should help redirect the conversation to the obvious: it’s the kids.
…Women are less inclined than men to think that power and status are worth the sacrifice of a close relationship with their children…Nothing in the array of work/family policy prescriptions—family leave, child care, antidiscrimination lawsuits, flextime, and getting men to cut their work hours—will lead women to infiltrate the occupational 1 percent. They simply don’t want to.
Hymowitz argues that this strong female preference to be at home with children is what makes the “end of men” argument silly. Still, I don’t think society is in good shape when we expect men to play second string, getting in the game only after women have opted out by choice. And what does that mean for men who want to marry? How can they advance in their careers when women who plan to step off in less than ten years are front and center until then, scooping up promotions?
Your Best Strategy For Finding a Mate
Prioritize relationships.
Don’t waste time halfwaying it or “just having fun” if you want to marry and have a family.
Date for the long-term.
If you don’t meet your future spouse in college (few people do), immediately upon graduating think of every potential relationship as serious and lasting. No dating Mr. Right Now.
Filter, filter, filter.
Dads not cads. Filter in for character, and drop the checklist of superficial stuff.
Put the word out.
Don’t pretend to be fabulously single unless you want to stay that way. Let your friends, family and coworkers know you’re in it to win it. Accept as many invitations, blind dates, and introductions as you possibly can. Dial down the bar scene as your go-to weekend plan. Your chances of meeting your husband in a bar are not nil, but they’re slim.
Your Best Strategy For Staying Home With Your Kids
Penelope Trunk wrote a post with some excellent advice: How to plan a career in your 20s to stay home with kids in your 30s.
Key points:
Understand that your job performance is ephemeral.
For those of you who will fall into the 84% [who want to stay home], understand that the life you have as a high performer at work is going to end when you have kids. Priorities will change, and it will not matter that you are a high performer because you will not choose to sustain that when you have kids. Work is a place where you get external rewards for being smart and productive and a good team member. You do not get that at home.
Accept that you will fall behind.
Women are performing at a higher level at work than men are right now. So, statistically speaking, when you decide to stay home with kids, the people you were better than will start moving ahead of you. It will kill you. Prepare for this. It works best to think of your career as a time in your life. You were a high performer when you did it, but now it’s over.
Live below your means.
You know at age 23 if it’s likely that you’ll want to stay home with kids. Which means the minute you get married you should adjust your spending for one income. This will always keep the door open for you to stay home with kids.
Pick your spouse carefully.
If you want to stay home with kids, don’t marry a guy who can’t earn a living. If you want to stay home with kids, make it clear that even though you earn more than the guy, the guy will be the breadwinner. If you want to stay home with kids then you put all your financial hopes in the guy’s career. Whatever his earning ability is, then that is your earning ability, because you are a team, and he is the breadwinner.
Don’t be the woman who turns 30 and says, “Whaaaaa?” Plan ahead. Be smart. When the music stops, you want to get a chair, and with any luck it won’t be a barstool.
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@ Maggie:
EXACTLY!
The guys are responding like we said women shouldn’t do any domestic tasks until marriage! Not so! In fact, many us shared how we cook for boyfriends and nurture them in other ways. Case in point, my boyfriend raves about my cooking and how he feels it’s better than many restaurants. We spend far more time staying in and enjoying home cooked meals than we dine out. I prefer it that way, and he does as well. I always ask him if he’s hungry or not. Sometimes help me cook or washes dishes. Other times he chills out on the couch while I make the food. It varies. I don’t feel taking the “domestic lead” is supplicating behavior in the least. I think it works best when women do.
However, going full court domestic goddess for a boyfriend (not husband or fiance) IS out of step with the stage of relationship IMO.
@ Jackie:
Harmony.
That’s a great way of putting it, Jackie!
I agree 100%. A King will seek a Queen, just as water seeks it’s own level. Supplicating behavior is a DLV for both sexes. I think what men here are struggling with is, they see lack of feminity in women as a whole these days so how could a woman who displays feminine behavior go wrong? The answer is, anything in extreme does more harm than good in regards to getting your intended outcome. Someone who is “too devoted” ultimately is just as wrong for you as someone who is too uncaring/detached. In both circumstances, the dynamic is off and causes the relationship to fail!
LOL Susan, I vaguely remember this conversation and your reaction! Suffice it to say I’m kind of strange when it comes to body stuff. I’ve loved picking the gunk from my husband’s back since the beginning, and he was weirded out by it a little.
Although he’s glad I’m not grossed out by him, it’s one of those things that’s probably a detraction. Sometimes I pick his ear wax when we’re sitting in a restaurant, and he would tell me, “Not now!” Yeah, not sexy.
I’m more of a “cute” nerdy girl than a “sexy” femme fatale. It is who I am, and if a guy didn’t like that about me, better to find out early. My husband is not a fancy guy with impeccable mannerisms — keep in mind he lived in 3rd world conditions in Africa for over a year and half. He mostly just laughs about my quirkiness.
I prefer relationships without close accounting of goods and services rendered / received. The closer the relationship, the less I feel that I should have to do that. Keeping track of such things just draws attention to the fact that you don’t trust the other person to keep things even in the long term; who wants to partner up such a person?
The other red flag that such accounting and rule invention risks raising is, “when we get married is she going to start rationing out sex according to how many entries on her honey-do-list get done?”. who wants to marry such a person?
I see this kind of thing happen when the bill arrives for a meal. Groups of men tend to split the bill up pretty evenly (within reason), but groups of women tend to start getting out calculators and allocating plates, or shares of them.
Are women more scared of getting stiffed in the deal than men?
Are men more trusting that things will even out in the longer term?
e.g. maybe she washes the clothes every week (using a washing machine and drier), but when the roof blows off the shed / car breaks down / sewer backs up (i.e. big and/or dirty jobs), who tends to get stuck with them?
So, to go back to the girlfriend clean up issue, maybe he wanted to see a little pitching in? perhaps he was picking up the bill for food more than her? cooking more? paying for the cinema?
perhaps he had the feeling that she felt entitled to whatever he was giving, without needing to reciprocate?
do we really feel that we have sight of the entire accounting for the relationship, or just a glimpse? feels more like a red button issue for some here, more than reason at work…
(I have those issues too, no claiming of the moral highground here)
Iggels – “I think what men here are struggling with is, they see lack of feminity in women as a whole these days so how could a woman who displays feminine behavior go wrong? The answer is, anything in extreme does more harm than good in regards to getting your intended outcome.”
Thank you. I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. The question then becomes: is cleaning your BF’s apartment “extreme” or simply a nice gesture? Maybe she couldn’t cook at all, and her best “domestic” skills revolve around cleaning?
My ex framed her cleaning efforts as something she did for herself as well as me, by implying that she wouldn’t spend time at my place if it was gross. I saw it as a very sweet gesture, and it actually prompted me to make an effort to keep our kitchen habitable from then on.
I’ll agree that in the case of Jason’s ex-GF, she was probably trying too hard and that DOES come across as supplication. But, simply cleaning a guys house is not necessarily a submissive move. FRAME is key.
@Escoffier
“Dr Frank Furedi, Sociology professor at the University of Canterbury, said the study made sense as chore sharing took place more among couples from middle class professional backgrounds, where divorce rates are known to be high. “These people are extremely sensitive to making sure everything is formal, laid out and contractual. That does make for a fairly fraught relationship,” he told the Daily Telegraph. “The more you organise your relationship, the more you work out diaries and schedules, the more it becomes a business relationship than an intimate, loving spontaneous one.
“That tends to encourage a conflict of interest rather than finding harmonious resolutions.” He said while the survey applied to Norway, he was confident the results would be the same in the UK.
“In a good relationship people simply don’t know who does what and don’t particularly care. “Unless marriage is a relationship above anything else, then whenever there are tensions or contradictions things come to a head. You have less capacity to forgive and absorb the bad stuff.”
The survey appeared to contradict another recent one across seven countries including Britain that found that men who shouldered a bigger share of domestic responsibilities had a better sense of wellbeing and enjoyed a better work-life balance.
The researchers expected to find that where men shouldered more of the burden, women’s happiness levels were higher. In fact they found that it was the men who were happier while their wives and girlfriends appeared to be largely unmoved.
Those men who did more housework generally reported less work-life conflict and were scored slightly higher for wellbeing overall.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9572187/Couples-who-share-the-housework-are-more-likely-to-divorce-study-finds.html
Nothing whatsoever about “relationship lead” and applies only to married couples and the likelihood of divorce, nothing about dating behaviors.
Do you have additional links?
So she had a problem with her boyfriend of several years, in an extremely high stress situation with possibly tens of thousands of dollars at stake.
She then ran to her friends instead of discussing it with him.
Hmmmm.
I would instantly dump this girl.
@TedD
I’d put money on you being an excellent example of a stand up guy. I’d be pretty surprised to not feel safe if you’ve got my back. just my masculine intuition and the fact that I’ve seen your attitudes to many issues around here (and elsewhere).
FWIW and all that
@Lisa C
As you no doubt saw, Sassy explained the real issue, which is one of expectation. Jason appreciated the behaviors, but then used them as a standard by which to characterize his roommate’s girlfriend as an entitled princess, for lack of cleaning. As far as I am concerned, Jason is free to hold such opinions, and even free to tell his friend that his girlfriend sucks. However, I object to any claim that a woman should show her femininity and nurturing by cleaning up after a man she is not living with. I reject Jason’s standard as the norm, and I would advise women that capitulating to it will lead to loss of respect by both parties in a relationship without commitment.
Susan, this story breaks my heart
It’s scary as well, because I know how hard it is to leave once you’ve reached that level of attachment to someone. I lived with my Ex and it was really hard not only to end it, but to get used to not seeing him everyday. That level of entanglement is difficult to walk away from even when the relationship is broken…
Sadly, I think you are right. They will get married and things between them will continue to go downhill.
Thanks to Dr Furedi regarding his views that close accounting of a relationship is a bad idea. Exactly. Just keep a lose eye on things being pretty even over the long term over all the jobs getting done. Give and take for the win.
@Maggie
Exactly. I’m with you. I have never heard of a woman cleaning a boyfriend’s apartment by herself while he was not there. Or doing his laundry. Cleaning up after oneself is one thing, pitching in as a guest is only right, but this is beyond the pale.
I’ve been asking women I know about this ever since it came up – a total of 23 women my age (one lunch, two group evening events) and 6 women my daughters age. The response was universal. From the women aged 40-60:
“You have got to be kidding me! That is downright pathetic! How is this even possible 50 years after the Women’s Movement?”
From the women aged 23-24:
“Hahahaha! GTFO! Doubt it.”
More importantly, none have ever met a man who requested or expected it. It had not come up during dating for a single woman.
@Susan, Iggles
I’ve put *this* much effort in the relationship, I can’t leave now! It’s like someone who will pay $10 to see a horrible movie, yet insisting on staying until the bitter end because they paid for it! Much better to extricate yourself and spend the time happier doing other things and leaving the crap movie behind you.
I’m not mad I’m cracking up. I’m incredulous. This has actually been amusing fodder for the last three days.
I don’t have a dog in the fight. I think you guys are off the wall on this. I feel like I’m writing a SNL skit to be shot with 1950s production values.
@ Ted:
You’re welcome
It’s good to see we’re reaching common ground.
I agree 100% Frame is important to consider.
In your case, it works because your gf was spending time with you primarily at your place. She was using your kitchen most of the time instead of cooking at her own home (lived with parents i presume?)
Not sure if Jason’s ex had her own place or not. But for women who do — like the girlfriend of Jason’s roommate — expecting them to clean their boyfriend’s place in order to show feminity is a tall order! It seems out of place for someone to expect a girl who sleeps over once or twice a week to do her boyfriend’s laundry and scrub down their bathroom, etc. Whereas washing the dishes after a meal would be reasonable!
I am going to say this one more time.
I do not care what Jason and his girlfriend did or didn’t do. I do not blame Jason for accepting her various services if she gave them willingly.
I reject Jason’s using her cleaning his bathroom as a standard for what makes a good girlfriend, as evidenced by his judging his roommates girlfriend harshly for not cleaning the apartment, even tho she spends 1.5 nights a week there.
No one has said women should not be generous and nurturing. We have said we don’t clean boyfriend’s toilets.
The men need to take this at face value and stop erecting strawmen. They’re slowing down the site.
Susan, the guy who said “it has to be spotless!” sounds awful. That’s a situation where you hire professional cleaners! My husband and I did that before we moved into our house, and he arranged all of it, including getting the carpets steamed. He’s also 100% behind getting maid service since I’ve gone back to work full-time, because he doesn’t want to see me exhausted.
I am not a doormat and would not advocate that for anyone. I am just saying that doing things for a loved one, which can include cleaning, or simple gestures like bringing a glass of water, is not really something you have to draw a strict line between “before cohabitation/marriage” and “after the real deal.”
Since the other HUSsies are sweet and nice — and I am mean and judgmental
— I absolutely hold Jason accountable just as much as that poor, deluded ex-GF.
In fact, to me his actions (or lack thereof) amount to tacit exploitation– taking a handout when you have no intention of really giving anything back.
I wouldn’t call her “stupid;” I would say her behavior is more naively hopeful than anything else. She definitely got the short end of the stick after giving just everything she could.
Whereas Jason knew from the first night that her “N was too high” for him (whose N was 3-4x hers).
Yet he had not qualms about getting cleaning, cooking, nurturing and sex with someone he had grave misgiving about from the beginning. How much would that cost if he had to pay professionals for those services?
To me, when either gender does it, that is tacit exploitation. Going along for a free ride. Far better to set the “unworthy” partner free to be with someone who will be able to love them back and commit.
oops – forget what I said about red-button issue, I was clearly mistaken
No accounting, no tit for tat. Generosity should be appreciated, not expected.
@Susan “As you no doubt saw, Sassy explained the real issue, which is one of expectation.”
If that’s the real issue, then why are so many exaggerating the efforts that Jason’s Ex GF made? Sure, if we ignore the facts, I could get anyone to agree that the Ex was being pathetic. I’m just not willing to assume facts that we haven’t been told.
I think couples can and do figure this out for themselves. When both people are giving, there is harmony. Some people are takers. A taker with a very strong giver can work, though usually not long-term. Two takers never works.
There are no hard and fast rules for what makes a good relationship, but I would certainly advise young women who are givers to find men who are givers, and vice versa.
“No accounting” vs “No cleaning until be-ringed”
IDK, they sound similar in concept to me…
“Generosity should be appreciated, not expected”
yeah, I’ll happily sign up for that though.
#1071 was good too
Lisa C,
You are one of the sane ones here thinking clearly, and you seem to fully understand where I’m coming from.
Examples of tidying up she did at my place…
-folding some clothes and hanging up other clothes
-making the bed
-quickly vaccuming a small rug that I have in my room
-cleaning the bathroom sink and shower (which generally had a good amount of her hair in it)
-doing a few dishes and loading the dishwasher
All of this together couldn’t have taken more than an hour in the morning and she wasn’t in a state of servitude as some like to think.
Susan “When both people are giving, there is harmony. I would certainly advise young women who are givers to find men who are givers, and vice versa.”
I definitely agree with this. My husband is very giving, and our situation was of course different from some of the examples given here. I did want to emphasize that it’s not the act itself (i.e. cleaning) that is problematic, but that potential problems arise from circumstances around the act.
For example, if we had been really strapped for cash when we moved into our new house, my husband and I would have both pitched in to clean the place. But we had a good amount of savings in reserve, so we spent some on cleaners. Plus I was pregnant at the time.
I am assuming that in the example you gave, the guy was not poor or struggling, but just expected free professional quality cleaning from the girl. That’s lame. My husband never demanded that I make a free pro quality website for my husband, and after I did, he thanked me.
It’s the little things in a relationship that determine quality and harmony over time.
mothering skills like J …
Aw, sweet…. Thanks, ADBG!
@BB
I used to have a lovely 20-22-year-old Colombian housekeeper who was also working as a waitress at Hooters and attending community college. Suffice to say that her existence practically triggered PTSD in my girlfriends of the time, despite the very large educational and professional achievement gaps between the women.
Yet, you didn’t marry the housekeeper or anyone like her.
Sounds more like a bunch of hens trying to sabotage a perfectly good relationship out of their own insecurities and sense of feminism.
Excellent point, J!
@ Jason:
Your response doesn’t surprise me in the least
“No, the man isn’t displaying signs of being a controlling douche! Her friends are just jealous.”
Ugh.
Susan,
First off I’m sure you are framing it with your negative spin in order to get these reactions.
Second, as always, don’t listen to what women say, look at what they do. I’ve had two real gfs, both did these kind of things for me without me asking, and when I get another one I won’t be surprised if the result is the same.
Jackie: “I am definitely interested in the final words of J and Susan, as they wear the crown of sustaining healthy marriages over the longest length of time.”
What about Esco, myself? There are some others here who *haven’t* been divorced, and our marriage seems entirely devoid of the power dynamics you’re talking about. We’ve recently hit 20 years together, 15 married.
“Yet, you didn’t marry the housekeeper or anyone like her.”
Boom!
I know plenty of average looking women who don’t cook/clean who are married to UMC men, they just have the housekeeper do it. Housekeepers, doesn’t matter how attractive they are, they aren’t “for marriage”, occasional affairs and other forms of exploitation suit them better. They can be pleasant, submissive, good cooks/cleaners, etc.,
It definitely proves a point on latest threat about how open men are to suggestion re who is attractive, and for what. Likewise, if men want to marry girl next door, they are drawn to girls who fit that pop culture image, in spite of their actual behaviors.
Because people are just being stupid now. A ‘thank you’ isn’t neccessary after every single pot pie for the rest of time. I did things in my relationships because I wanted to do them, knew they would be appreciated and I didn’t expect or need any verbal appreciation. It was also vice versa from my gfs.
This situation was one of some stress, and rather than talk to him about it, she goes and blathers to her gfs over mimosas.
@ OTC:
Congrats on 20 years!
In regard to your question, I think what Jackie is saying is that she puts more weight in the responses of women who have marriages she would like to emulate. FWIW, I agree. It is prudent to listen to people who have ended up where you would like to be.
No doubt, you and Esc have valuable insight to provide as well. However, it’s not the same. We are not directly hearing from your wives.
J, I don’t think Bastiat Blogger is the marrying type lol.
Ion, that is of course true. If all I had going for me were housekeeping skills, my husband would not be with me. His main criteria were good looks (he’s tall and big, but he’s into thinner and more petite girls), intelligence (he’s quite intelligent), and spirituality (similar to himself). He also didn’t require a virgin, and had no specific N in mind, but he wanted a more restricted girl who was not overly flirtacious with random guys. He didn’t want a SAHM who was going to pop out ten kids, and wanted at least one kid but max two kids. So given that, I could have not cleaned or cooked and still won him over. They were “unexpected bonuses” to him.
But I think, deep down, most guys would want the virgin who is feminine, sweet, loyal, loving, very beautiful, pretty and gorgeous, with ideal breasts/waist/hips, long flowing hair, who laughs easily, never gets angry, is fun, can talk to him for hours about his interests, cooks great meals, cleans, makes his life smooth, gives regular bjs, never turns him down for sex, and is totally amazing in bed.
Most guys know that’s unlikely, so they settle for as good as they can. Knowing that, I try to give my husband as close to the “ideal” as possible, because I want him to be happy. Nobody can be perfect, but constantly striving toward it is not a bad thing. Plus, as Athol Kay writes, it keeps the aging wife competitive against the younger, hotter girls.
@OTC, Esco, Iggles
OTC, that’s awesome! Long may King and Queen OTC (and King & Queen Esco) reign! Let the proclamation ring out through the land.
I would love to read your wives’ opinion of the discussion here, since as Iggles states, they will have the feminine POV in marriage that is being debated here.
@Hope
nailed that one
Hmm, very interesting perspectives. I am definitely interested in the final words of J and Susan, as they wear the crown of sustaining healthy marriages over the longest length of time.
OK, here goes. You are correct in that I would neither describe myself as dominant or submissive. To a degree that’s an INTP thing; we’ll lead if we have to but don’t get any particular jollies out of it; we resent being lead. I married an INTJ. They are also reluctant leaders. That works in my house; we can both deal with there not being a clear hierarchy of leadership or clearly defined sex roles. We are more oriented towards the goal than the structure, which is why I personally favor the “two horses in one harness” model over Captain and First Mate–not that I’d call it oppressive. It’s just not for us.
One thing that jumps out to me in comparing my marriage to Susan’s is that all parties seem to have what Maslow would have a healthy androgyny. That is not to say that either of us is married to effeminate men, but that both husbands seem to be switch roles when necessary–cook a meal, change a diaper, provide some fatherly nurturing, etc. Having a guy who is flexible enought to switch hats is a real plus, especially if you work. Masloe, BTW, viewed that sort of flexibility as a sign of being self-actualized.
Susan and I both have some traditionally masculine traits like career drive and assertativness. I think when both parties have a mix of traits like that, it’s more possible to have a genuine friendship between them. I notice that both Susan and I have unisex activities-hiking, gourmet cooking, cultural events, etc–that we do with our husbands. Men bond with each other over activities. By “exploiting” that, Susan and I have sort of an extra bond with our husbands; there’s a buddy thing in addition to a marital thing. It’s a fuller relationship due to that added dimension.
Unlike many people, I have never lived with a man before marriage. That sorted out as a moral thing, but later became self-protective. I can’t see giving up one’s independence without a real commitment. I never felt any great need to clean my own flat and then go clean someone else’s place, so I can honestly say that I’ve never cleaned a toilet that wasn’t at least part mine.
You, Susan and others are correct in saying that Jason’s gf was trying desperately to move herself off the slut pile and had it backfire. It’s a definite DLV. OTOH, I understand the guys saying they want nurture and kindness. Just as there is a sense though that being a nice guy is too close for comfort to being a doormat, the same holds true for girls. A nice girl friend is considerate and lends a hand, but she doesn’t make herself into a slave. No one loves a doormat, male or female.
BTW, I truly appreciate your holding me up as an example. (In fact, it sort of corks me sometimes to see miserably unhappy people pontificating about relationships when there are relatively happy people who’d be glad to say what works for them.)
I see you as a really levelheaded young woman with good things ahead of her because she learned some hard lessons early and had a crappy childhood to overcome. Sometimes, when you deal with things head on early, you’re better off than people who never had any challenges.
Susan – “I reject Jason’s using her cleaning his bathroom as a standard for what makes a good girlfriend, “
That’s fine, as a personal judgment. But you nor any other women here can tell him HE IS WRONG for using that judgment. At the end of the day, it is Jason’s call to make. And, if he has the market value to attract and keep a woman that will clean his bathroom? I say more power to him! It is on HER to make sure she is getting a fair deal, NOT him.
Jason – “Sounds more like a bunch of hens trying to sabotage a perfectly good relationship out of their own insecurities and sense of feminism.”
I kinda thought the same thing, perhaps not as cynically though…
Just1Z – Why thanks! I actually see myself as a pretty decent person. But, I suspect Jackie’s idea of a “stand up guy” is probably far more “Christian” based than my definition, therefore I don’t fit the bill in her eyes. That’s cool, as I understand everyone has their own ideas of what is or is not “stand up” behavior. Once upon a time I probably would have agreed with Jackie’s ideals, but that was so long ago I hardly remember it. Life beat that out of me.
Iggles – “In regard to your question, I think what Jackie is saying is that she puts more weight in the responses of women who have marriages she would like to emulate. FWIW, I agree. It is prudent to listen to people who have ended up where you would like to be.”
This is a very good point. I’m thinking there are NO women here that would be interested in being married to Jason, so perhaps the issue is none of you (other than maybe Hope) want that kind of dynamic in your marriage?
But, for the record, it isn’t only high N guys that want a housewife…
@Ted
Dude, I totally think you ARE a stand-up guy! (And I still hope of the day with Han Solo and you on a HUS Podcast!)
What I meant was: You don’t self-define as that, at least in your posts. Usually you will preface with, I’m an arrogant so-and-so; or, Back in the day when I was a wimp, etc.
I look forward to the day when you & Mrs T can join the other longevity marriage court, along with Queen J and King HUS.
Hope
” most guys would want the virgin who is feminine, sweet, loyal, loving, very beautiful, pretty and gorgeous, with ideal breasts/waist/hips, long flowing hair, who laughs easily, never gets angry, is fun, can talk to him for hours about his interests, cooks great meals, cleans, makes his life smooth, gives regular bjs, never turns him down for sex, and is totally amazing in bed.”
In general, women want a guy whose masculine first and foremost, 5’11 and up, with ideal shoulder/muscle/ ratios, a full head of hair, is not a neanderthal who expects them to cook/clean all day, but makes a large enough salary so that they could be a SAHM if they wanted, has had a fair share of lovers to be good at sex but is not promiscuous, is high-end beta with alpha tendencies, makes life exciting, is strong willed, passionate about goals, able to directly compete with other males, is not a pushover, but also sensitive to her needs, sees past their flaws and find them beautiful, and is totally amazing in the bedroom and boardroom.
We all know the script. My point re J’s comment is that housekeepers who HAVE things like beauty, intelligence, etc., would be actively rejected, because they don’t fit the definition of what “love” should look like. My point was also that men don’t require good housekeeping necessarily. Telling a woman to cook and clean for her BF&company is similar to telling boys to be extra nice and bring girls flowers to win their affection. Like everything, it depends on the context.
why would these women want this if being a SAH is so much more difficult compared to their “piece of cake”, joyous, fulling, amazing carreers…
Because you really don’t know how hard it is until you actually do it.
I was happiest FWIW when I had both emotionally fulfilling flextime work and my little guys to go home to. And a cleaning lady who came every two weeks. That was a really good balance for me.
If I could re-engineer society to my liking everyone would have a flextime job and plenty of time for family. I wish DH could work flextime, and we had more time to just hang out.
@TedD
my idea of a stand up guy:
says what he means and means what he says
is honest
his word is his bond
can be trusted to have my back
will help in emergencies (fair payback would be expected)
doesn’t sweat the small stuff, but stands on real principles
I realise that there may be a bit of redundancy there, but I think that this is a pretty normal list of good qualities. No mention of religion or turning the other cheek on the big stuff.
again FWIW
Jackie/Iggles, ah, I get it now.
Mrs. C hasn’t posting lately (work plus school plus Mom wins over blogs) but I do discuss a lot of things I post here, and sometimes get explicit endorsement from her. Most recently, the whole thing about “is-a-FWB-dealbreaker?” I was totally correct about her thoughts and confirmed them.
It’s actually quite fun to delve into each other’s thought patterns in the past – there’s always a new perspective to be gained. We can talk about the night we met over and over again, it’s never boring, and there’s always a some new insight into each other as person.
For the cleaning thing, well, in college my wife did pitch in a bit, and sometimes helped clean our college apartment (I had 4 roommates), and even cooked breakfast for us occasionally. I asked her why, and she said it was a natural thing due to her upbringing (she had a SAHM, youngest of six). But then again, I also cooked dinner for her, bought food, and gave her free admission to our weekly keg parties. Certainly not a one-way exchange.
if there are so many aging college millenials then why the hell can’t I get one?
Basically, Susan, when it comes to sex before marriage, BJs, sex on the first date, cohabitation, college marriages–anything totally, utterly non-traditional for which couples used to wait for the ring–you are not only all for it, you can even go on the attack against anyone who says it might not be the greatest idea. No moral judgements allowed at HUS!
But when it comes to doing domestic-oritented favors for a guy before the engagement? Hell no! Do you pigs think we’re your maids?
Either that or you absurditize the argument to “All the troggy males here think a girl is required to come over and clean his bathroom after three dates.”
Yeah, OK, sure.
@Hope, J
“J, I don’t think Bastiat Blogger is the marrying type lol.”
We shall see if there is Bastiat Baroness out there for him. Sometimes the most worldly ones can fall harder than any countrified innocent. 
===
Well, I’m pretty sure he brought up marriage earlier on this thread!
” To a degree that’s an INTP thing; we’ll lead if we have to but don’t get any particular jollies out of it; we resent being lead.”
Yep. I hate following others, and I hate leading. Whenever someone asks “are you a leader, or a follower?” I’m always like “those are my only options??? Wtf”
If someone tells me I have to do something, I’ve got a flexible personality so I will. But that’s 10x better than telling me I have to believe something. I remember being around 11 and wondering why Jesus only answered prayers for Americans, and not starving children.
@Lisa C
Hi, Lisa. I think makes all the difference in the world: “When dating, my husband would have washed my car for me. ” You had a reciprocal relationship.
@SW re Boxes washing
I don’t see why a guy would want his gf to see that. Talk about an attraction killer. It’s better not to have a woman see the inside of those boxers until after she says “I do.” I recall the first time I was forced to handled DH’s dirty drawers…the horror.
@Esco
“Basically, Susan, when it comes to sex before marriage, BJs, sex on the first date, cohabitation, college marriages–anything totally, utterly non-traditional for which couples used to wait for the ring–you are not only all for it, you can even go on the attack against anyone who says it might not be the greatest idea. No moral judgements allowed at HUS!”
) are probably the most traditional types here. I can’t speak for Bellita, but I receive way more support here than I do IRL, outside of religious circles.
===
Esco, me and Bellita (who I haven’t seen in the longest time
I do think that as long as we are talking about human relations, that the question of morality (or maybe ethics is the better word) is unavoidable.
jackie – “What I meant was: You don’t self-define as that, at least in your posts. Usually you will preface with, I’m an arrogant so-and-so; or, Back in the day when I was a wimp, etc.”
OH…. I’m a bit dense most days.
OK, so let me address your actual point then. I’ll tell you why I don’t “self identify” as a stand up guy: stand up guys get abused and used. Period. I hide the fact that I’m a stand up guy because I don’t want people to know. The asshole factor comes naturally, but it also serves as great protection from those that would use my good nature to take advantage of me.
The very last thing I would EVER call myself (other than perhaps beta/delta LOL) is “stand up”, because in today’s world, being a “stand up guy” is like wearing a giant bulls eye on your back. I’d much rather the world think I’m a total asshat than have ANY idea that I’m a decent person. Other than personal reasons, being decent today is generally not seen as a positive attribute.
@Maggie
Granny was smart enough to realize that giving out a sample taste of pie was a DHV and that giving away the whole pie was an act of desperation.
And yes, pie is in fact a metaphor here.
@TedD
now you’ve clarified terms, I would agree with you as to the problems of being stand up as you define it. That’s why I don’t have many friends by my standards, I don’t have real friendships with non stand up people, for exactly the reasons that you give.
A stand up guy who reserves his good qualitites for those that deserve them – that’s a smart stand up guy, but still a stand up guy. to do otherwise makes you a nice guy by my terminology – and that is just plain fucking dumb in the real world. a white knight for the asking a.k.a sucker destined to be used.
so, to clarify, I wasn’t meaning that you were a sucker, rather that you were someone I’d likely trust to do the right thing IRL, if only for the right people. people who earnt / deserved that investment.
Are any of the guys confused by this use of DHV and DLV to refer to a woman cleaning/cooking?
Like, I can get “relationship just started and she cleaned my house”=odd and possibly coming off as desperate, and I definitely get putting out before commitment as desperate.
But after the DTR and having some comfort with each other, I don’t think this would pass through my head. Like, at all.
Any other guys getting that sense?
Why would I do that? I wanted information, not validation. Mostly people thought it was funny. The young ones especially. But I’ll admit to selection bias.
All right. What’s this “DHV” acronym mean?
I got the fact that it’s bad to be DHVed, but I still don’t know what it actually means.
Also, what is DLV?
And what is with the Vs?
@ADBG
Here’s the best way I can put it: It’s not the act so much as the mindset from which is comes.
Being a servant (supplicating, obsequious, trying to earn love by grovelling)
vs
Being of service (gives from a place of abundance, receives help back in kind)
You can’t earn love like you can rack up points in a video game.
Re: Colombian Hooters girls. I will openly state that I have a mating preference for intellectual women with diverse interests, and I am happily willing to trade under-developed domestic skills, which I can and will out-source to “qualified” help (lol), for physical traits, dynamic verbal engagement, shared excitement over important couple activities (sex and travel being the most notable), and psychological stability.
However, I also realize that I may be in the minority on this, and that my lack of judgment regarding domestic skills may be coupled to deep concerns with the outcomes of long-term cohabitation. In other words, I know that I am not some trophy catch for a woman seeking a traditional family life with an LTR-friendly male.
My comments about being a domestic supplicant were actually meant to explore whether or not this role would give the supplicating woman a strategic mating advantage over a woman who did not think this role was a good idea. Most women here seem to feel that a supplicant will become a kind of doormat for an increasingly messy, demanding, and ungrateful male. This may be the case, but I thought it would be interesting to hear the POV of LTR-minded men.
There may also be an element of vitriol here. It might be the case that the domestic supplicant is, like the easy girl, violating the rules of the Cartel and forcing a price-war on a new front. This was basically the reaction that girlfriends had to my former housekeeper; there was significant anger at both the girl for demeaning herself (as I said before, she had limited income generating potential, so I found this attack to be unfair) and at me (for hiring and overpaying an attractive Hooters waitress to mop my hardwood floors and so on; this was probably a more legitimate critique).
On the other hand, my male friends were quite supportive.
I completely understand the concerns that are being raised about young girls performing a range of embarrassing janitorial and cooking tasks prior to serious commitments from the male. I was actually looking at this from a more Machiavellian point of view and wondering if a girl who did these things would infiltrate the male’s emotional system and flood him with thoughts about “playing house” with her.
@ted
I can and do say that Jason is wrong to hold up his own standard as appropriate for the relationships of others. That is the only point I am interested in making.
He ragged on someone else’s gf for not cleaning their apt.
Just1Z – “to do otherwise makes you a nice guy by my terminology – and that is just plain fucking dumb in the real world. a white knight for the asking a.k.a sucker destined to be used.”
yeah exactly this. And no worries, I kinda assumed your definition of “stand up guy” and mine were similar.
Susan – “I can and do say that Jason is wrong to hold up his own standard as appropriate for the relationships of others. That is the only point I am interested in making.
He ragged on someone else’s gf for not cleaning their apt.”
Again, it is your right to feel that way. But honestly, and without trying to start a fight here, aren’t you holding up YOUR standards as appropriate for the relationships of others? I mean, don’t we ALL do that?
And FWIW, it sounds to me like Jason’s room mate might actually agree with Jason’s assessment, to a degree at least. The question I have is: if his room mate actually feels that way, why is he still with his GF?
@Susan
“So generous! Four months of working her ass off in and out of bed, and what did that get her? ”
I was under the assumption that we were working off the basis that a relationship can be ended at any moment for any reason, regardless of other person without moral judgement?
@Susan
“5. Car trunk vacuuming.
6. Hardened microwave crud scrubbing.
7. Post-nap drool track wiping.”
I’ve done #6 at work before and would be willing to do those three for a special guy, as long as I don’t find a body or something during #5.
@Hope
“Knowing that, I try to give my husband as close to the “ideal” as possible, because I want him to be happy. Nobody can be perfect, but constantly striving toward it is not a bad thing.”
I think this is very reasonable and smart, and (while I can’t promise ‘no anger ever’) I can see that as an ideal to work for too.
@JP
DLV = demonstrator of low value
DHV = demonstrator of high value
@Susan
“3. Ear cleaning.”
my wife does this for me.
She brought it up, back home its normal apparently. Guys can’t be trusted to clean their own ears.
Freaked me the hell out at first…quite enjoyable now.
@Susan
“I reject Jason’s using her cleaning his bathroom as a standard for what makes a good girlfriend, as evidenced by his judging his roommates girlfriend harshly for not cleaning the apartment, even tho she spends 1.5 nights a week there.”
Why?
If someones girlfriend is hotter than someone else girlfriend she is a better girlfriend. It is not unreasonable for boyfriend A to conclude girlfriend B sucks.
Vice versa as well.
If someone is better than you, when they think you suck, its not morally wrong. Its just true.
@Sai
I knew that you were a Sweety!!!
p.s.
no bodies in my car’s boot, I have already fed them to Brick Top’ s pigs. is that acceptable?
@Jackie “You had a reciprocal relationship.”
Here’s what Jason did: “What did I do for her? Yes, I paid for a majority of things, and all big expenses, but I was also the one to cook breakfast for us 95% of the time, I did things like bring her lunch at work when I knew she didn’t pack, helped her with her grad school assignments and got her a stuffed animal that was an inside joke of ours.”
So, none of that counts? I’m just perplexed here. Sounds like a reciprocal relationship to me.
I hear the general angst and unhappiness from some about Jason breaking up with this girl because of her N. But this whole routine that she was cleaning and practically being his slave to redeem herself in his eyes seems to border on fiction.
Why would I do that? I wanted information, not validation. Mostly people thought it was funny. The young ones especially. But I’ll admit to selection bias.
If these young ones are a similar subset of the women who “swooned”, as you put it, over me when they saw my pictures, then once again I’ll go with the old saying of look at what women do, not what they say.
And FTR about my ex-gf, I think almost all of the women have it wrong on here. While I never asked, I would not be surprised one bit if she did these kinds of cleaning/cooking/tidying up things for her two previous serious bfs (albeit to a lesser degree if I had to bet money). I think it is just part of her nature.
Ted,
And FWIW, it sounds to me like Jason’s room mate might actually agree with Jason’s assessment, to a degree at least. The question I have is: if his room mate actually feels that way, why is he still with his GF?
I think he feels like that, especially after seeing treatment that girls have given me, but it isn’t enough of a factor for him to change things. She is fairly attractive, Jewish (he wants to marry a Jew), intelligent and they have been together for a long time.
At this point these domestic skills are not enough for him to throw it in, probably not by a long shot, but he still can’t help but feel a bit of envy and a sense of longing for a woman more like that.
Ted,
Just to add, my roommate is the type of guy, IMO, who may end up having a mid-life crisis in his 40s. He has done everything right (job, house, savings, works hard, been committed to his gf) and I don’t think he will be appreciated for it nearly as much as he would like or expect. I’m sure more than a few guys in the manosphere can relate to that sentiment as well, where they did everything ‘by the book’ and rather than receive appreciation they were simply told “well, that’s what you were supposed to do”.
BB: “It might be the case that the domestic supplicant is, like the easy girl, violating the rules of the Cartel and forcing a price-war on a new front.”
Outstanding insight.
I wonder if we’ll have some traditionalist “sandwichwalks”, to go along with the slutwalks someday, brazenly asserting their right cook and clean without judgement from all those food-negative prudes.
Ion, it’s funny, your list is very close to how my husband really is. He’s 6′ and cuts a muscular figure, has a full head of hair, is not a neanderthal who expects me to cook/clean all day, makes a large enough salary so that I could be a SAHM if I wanted, was never promiscuous, is a high-end beta with alpha tendencies, is strong-willed, passionate about goals, able to compete with other males, is not a pushover, but also sensitive to my needs, sees past my flaws and find me beautiful, and is totally amazing in the bedroom and at work.
Not only that, he is artistic, draws, wrote poetry, composed music, plays classical guitar, knows several types of martial arts and knife fighting, shoots so accurately he gets mistaken for ex-military at the range, has a graduate degree in applied mathematics, programs in several languages, can be a real handyman, is a great teacher, is very witty and charming, and has a kind and big heart. When I started to get to know him, I was like “I want this man’s babies.” So, yeah, because he’s such a catch, I need to up my game to match his awesomeness.
At this point these domestic skills are not enough for him to throw it in, probably not by a long shot, but he still can’t help but feel a bit of envy and a sense of longing for a woman more like that.
So essentially, they have a longterm relationship that is held together by similar backgrounds, values and beliefs as well as attraction. That’s pretty much what holds marriages together in the longrun. When she’s home with the kids and he’s the sole breadwinner, she will no doubt gain domestic skills as her focus changes. He’s in pretty shape AFAICT.
Except for the fact that I don’t think she is particularly feminine in general and she has openly challenged him and talked down to him in the company of others.
I may get the wrath from the women of HUS, but even I never have and never will talk down or challenge a gf openly in public. That’s something for private when there is an issue, and this is coming from a guy who is very dominant and always leads the relationship.
@otc – Nice!
Jason – “I’m sure more than a few guys in the manosphere can relate to that sentiment as well, where they did everything ‘by the book’ and rather than receive appreciation they were simply told “well, that’s what you were supposed to do”.”
Yep. He may end up far worse than unappreciated. Truth is “by the book” these days is just about as bad as being a “stand up guy” TM (not to be confused with Just1Z’s definition of “stand up guy”)
I’ve come to the conclusion that everything, and I mean everything I do should be for me and my pleasure. Now, that works out well for my wife because it pleases me a great deal to make her happy. The difference now from my first marriage is: I make my current wife happy because *I* like her that way, not because I feel like its my job to make her happy.
Basically many of my behaviors are the same, but the frame is totally different. As stupid as it seems to me, it makes a world of difference.
>> “I may get the wrath from the women of HUS, but even I never have and never will talk down or challenge a gf openly in public. That’s something for private when there is an issue”
I think this is a very good rule for both people in a relationship.
Ted,
I totally get it, and it’s not stupid at all when talking to someone who understands these things.
@Ted’s
I think that I would call your stand- up guy, a nice guy, or chivalrous
that used to be okay because it was rewarded. it isn’t any more. unrewarded chivalry is a mug’ s game / for suckers.
Chivalry is dead, feminism killed it long ago. Nice guys just need to recognise it.
and I agree with you and Jason about his mate. get him to Roissy post haste
Amen. Unacceptable for either person in a relationship to do that.
Just1z, really? Get him to Roissy? When MMSL is so easy and just a click away from Susan’s sidebar?
Athol Kay is the best on LTR/engaged/married game.
ironically
http://collegeinsurrection.com/2012/12/az-state-womens-group-reviving-campus-chivalry/
Except for the fact that I don’t think she is particularly feminine in general and she has openly challenged him and talked down to him in the company of others.
But unlike your feminine (lower elementary grade?) teacher ex, she IS getting married. And she’ll probably be a more than competant wife and mother. Guess which girl I’d want my daughter to emulate.
If I had to guess, both the high N and DLVing are related to low self-esteem. LSE makes people do things they and those around them regret. However good it looks on the surface to have a girl serve my sons, I’d have some real questions as to what sort of mother my grandkids would have.
Hope: “Athol Kay is the best on LTR/engaged/married game.”
Assuming staying in *that* particular LTR is the end-goal. Athol’s advice kind of leaves off with “well, if all this doesn’t work, then… you’re in a better position for the next one”.
Amen. Unacceptable for either person in a relationship to do that.
Yeah, If she really did that and we are not just looking at Jason’s projecting Jewish stereotypes on her.
@J
But she doesn’t seem to do many nice gestures for him (and I’m not talking about the cleaning) and talks down to him in front of others.
Her seeming lack of appreciation and generosity is the red flag that I see and it may gradually eat at him.
Now, if she really is different than portrayed then great, but I’m taking Jason’s portrayal of her as sufficiently accurate–yeah, maybe there is a little bias but she still sounds plausible so I’m taking his portrayal at face value, realizing I haven’t heard her side of it or seen a livecam of how things really go down.
I read about Hope’s appreciation for her husband and imagine that in an attractive-enough girl and it makes me want to marry said girl and treat her totally awesome!
@Hope
Roissy might save him signing up for a very risky marriage. he’ s financially ripe but lacking game…he needs a huge wake up call a large red- pill, stat!
if he were already married then I would indeed point him at mmsl. Athol is for when your ‘ neck’ is already on the block…
OTC, Just1z, actually there are unmarried guys who have left the LTR as a result of MMSL. Several readers, including Athol and me, actually advised a guy to leave (he wanted kids; she didn’t), and last I heard he did.
I do get your point, Han. The presence of stereotypical and self-abnegating comments in Jason’s narrative (“She’s an overbearing JAP; I can say that because I’m Jewish.”) sort of make me distrust Jason’s frame.
BTW, I feel the need to say here once again, that I’m not disapproving of people being considerate and appreciative of ther SOs. It just seems to me that many women put in a lot and get back little. As a woman, I wouldn’t stand for that. OTOH, I wouldn’t want my sons to stand for it either.
@J
I get that bringing in a stereotype is not the most effective way of getting a point across. What if he had described her as ball busting and that she puts him down and doesn’t cook, clean or do cutesy things for him (basically, everything he said) but didn’t mention Jewess/JAP or anything like that?
As to the cleaning, I just took that as something she could do as a sign of gratitude or contribution, not as something she is contractually obligated to do, and the roommate nearly always cooks.
Jason, do you know how she treats your roommate when they go to her place?
@J
Another point is that of relative S/MMV.
It sounds like Jason’s gf should have either found someone of equal value to him that didn’t hold N as so important or she should have found someone half a point lower in value so that the possible negativity of her N would not be enough to overpower her positive things.
To be coldly analytical about it, in the end, she perceived him to have more overall value than he perceived her. Women should learn from this and either accept the risk of being hypergamous (you may get the guy, you may not) or find a way to appreciate a slightly lower value man where you have higher odds of success.
And his roommate needs to improve his inner game. His gf sounds like she would be a good match for him if she would up her girl game (Susan’s 25 steps). If she doesn’t (and she may in the future and she may do some nice things we’re not aware of) then she may be in for a rude awakening when after 10 years of marriage his spirits are sapped for lack of appreciation and nice gestures.
@ Jackie
I get that, but people are co-0pting terms developed for supplicating males (DHV and DLV) and applying to Jason’s relationship and women who do maid-duty in general.
What the guys are saying is that cleaning up a guy’s house a little bit is absolutely not a DLV, and is actually a DHV. But my impression, and I might be wrong about this, is that women are more insistent on the frame of “this girl was prostituting herself and Jason was taking advantage of her.”
I’m actually glad BB made the “competing on a new level” point, because this sounds exactly like the shaming a girl might experience for putting out too soon. Which is why I used the term “prostituting.”
That’s really the impression that I am getting here.
Jason, you have defended yourself enough. Don’t feel bad for taking what was offered, evaluating it, and deciding it wasn’t up to par.
Hope, hearing you talk about your husband is heart warming. You really are an awesome contributor here.
Lisa, I think you get the issue better than some of the ladies with defensive reactions.
Bastiat, your Cartel comment is quite interesting. And has a ring of accuracy.
Ted D, man, I agree with the other guys. I’d trust you at my back, and since you don’t know me, I’ll state that is not an easy goal to accomplish.
@Jason773
Do you know how she treats your roommate when they go to her place?
Does she do any nice things for him?
How is the balance in treatment? Is she always neutral or bitch or does she have moments where she treats him well?
How would you rate their respective SMV and MMV? Are the equal or is hers higher and so he puts up with the lack of nice gestures you’ve portrayed?
Also, Hope, from what I understand, your husband thought you were also quite a catch, and significantly upped his game to get you, too
awwwww crap, I am spamming now.
Susan, regarding your newly engaged couple. How much do you know about this guy? Is he very controlling, or is the only story you know about him?
What else has he done in the past?
I guess the biggest question, has anyone sat down and talked to the guy about his behavior? My impression is that most guys do not like being lectured to, but if you let them know they are making their SOs feel like shit, they are at least somewhat likely to change their behavior.
@Lisa C
Thanks for your appraisal of the situation. I think some hot buttons were pushed (whether it be cleaning, ball busting Jewess/Jap, or dumping her for high N when his is ~4x higher) and once the emotions were fired up or the judgements made then objective analysis suffered.
I too asked a girl I’m kind of dating (breakfast girl from a few days ago) about the roommate and the gf and she said that the gf should do some nice gestures as a generally good principle for relationships and as a sign of gratitude and contribution for staying at his place 20% of the time over the last 15 months.
HanSolo and JuTR, thanks. It’s actually nice to hear positive reactions to my intermittent gushing about my husband. Previously people would tell me I was being annoying.
ADBG, well, I was okay, but not as good as I could be. You could say we were both wanting to up our game, but just waiting for the right person for whom to do it.
@Hope
I totally think that your overall attitude of appreciation and giving is what most women should emulate.
Of course, women should not do this for unappreciative or ungiving men. Don’t attempt this with cads or players intent on not settling down. Women should not be doormats. Women should not attempt this with guys who are out of her league or with whom she has no hope.
For a decent guy though that is not out of your league and shows interest then adopting Hope’s appreciative and giving attitudes and doing (some of) Susan’s 25 steps will work FUCKING WONDERS!!!!!!!!!!
Han,
I dont have an idea of the dynamics when they are at her place so I cant comment. Im also sure she has to do some nice things or otherwise what would be the point?
In terms of smv, I would say they are on equal footinh, although I dont see her aging particularly well based on a few early indications. Basically I just think she is getting the better end of the deal if it comes to marriage and that she should be more appreciative. I dont think she is horrible or awful in any sense though.
One example of her attitude though is found last saturday night. My rm was at her place during the day and he came home about 11pm, unexpectedly. I asked him what was up and he said tuat he wanted to stay in and have a relaxing evening with her, but she wanted to go to a party with her friend, which she would up doing. He looked a little sad but idk, he is hard to read sometimes. AnywYs, my point is that she chose a party, where other males and alcohol will be, over spending a night with her bf, having sex and relaxing. Thats just something I dont get when in a relationship and one of a number of minor things that add up in my book.
Jason,
That’s not enough detail to make a judgement. Night-life is fun for young people, even young people in relationships. Sitting on the couch, watching TV and having sex all night, is not what all couples spend all their Saturday nights doing.
Sometimes, you know, couples need time apart, too. Which is fine and dandy.
And yes, males will be there and alcohol will be served, but don’t get too paranoid. I’m also going out tonight with girls and liquor and my GF will not be there (which is something other girls find utterly weird), and I am 99% sure I am not having sex with anyone.
Sexual atmospheres can also be fun for couples. Why last weekend my SO pulled me into a corner of a bar and shoved her hand down my pants. That was fun.
The only troubling aspect of that story was that plans were not established ahead of time. I know what I am doing most Saturday nights well in advance. Guy shouldn’t be going over to a girl’s house only to be rejected. That just ain’t right.
“Well,” he said, “I’m in the pub next to that.”
LOL! Heh very good one. Also thank you for the Nursery Rhyme very good I’m sure my son’s Grandpa (he is the British one in the family) will love if he learns this one. *kissinthecheek*
@Ana
you are most welcome, g’ night
I haven’t heard this much male bitching in a long time.
I’ve been in a similar situation before, and have done the exact same thing.
Bf came home and wanted to relax around the house together. I let him know that I wanted to go to a friend’s party. He tried to change my mind. I didn’t change my mind. I went to the party while the bf stayed at home.
She wanted to go to a party, and she isn’t obligated to stay at home. Sure, her bf may have been a little disappointed in not having her stay home with him, but this seems par for the course when two people enter into a relationship. Social agendas will not always match up.
It’s the way the cookie crumbles. I guess some people will argue that she should have foregone the party and stayed in with the bf, but that would just be opening a new can of worms.
@Sassy
Not enough info here. If it’s give and take then her going out is fine. Maybe he should have gone with her, or maybe she should have stayed with him. Doing things alone once in while is fine too.
The issue (and we don’t know) is whether whenever there’s a disagreement in what they want to do, who’s side “wins?” If it’s always her, then not good. Always him? Not good. And too much disagreement in the first place is just a sign they’re not compatible.
As for male bitching, I wouldn’t knock it, it gives you insight and you can use the info as you please to your advantage.
@ HanSolo
I agree. We definitely don’t have enough info to make a proper judgement call. I also agree that there should be a give and take aspect, with regards to social agendas/arrangements.
@Escoffier
When are you going to run out of straw?
Not domestic favors. Cleaning bathrooms. And not because she wants to. Because it is expected as something a good girlfriend does. It’s a requirement for being deemed nurturing. I call BS.
Personally, I would never commit to or, especially, wife up a woman who didn’t voluntary groom my back and remove any black heads.
Sassy – “I haven’t heard this much male bitching in a long time.”
Any time a man voices a negative opinion it is bitching. Just like every time a woman asks for something she is nagging. Right?
@J
Funny, I was just thinking of the whole discussion as being a variation on “Why buy the cow…” Lavatory Promiscuity?
The other thing I’ve been thinking of all day is this Smiths song:
And if you have five seconds to spare
Then I’ll tell you the story of my life :
Sixteen, clumsy and shy
I went to London and I
I booked myself in at the why…W.C.A.
I said : “I like it here – can I stay ?
I like it here – can I stay ?
Do you have a vacancy
For a back-scrubber?”
@BB
If the domestic supplicant had been valued and retained, I think this might be very possible, even likely. As it is, my sense is that most women here simply consider her a fool. I certainly feel that she employed a strategy that robbed her of dignity and was ineffective to boot. I picture her face burning with shame as she recalls her toil, but perhaps that is too Dickensian. I have too vivid an imagination at times.
@Lokland
False. I have simply stated that relationships are regularly ended whenever one person loses interest. I have not said anything about the morality of this.
Sai, you are priceless. Truly, you have a gift. Very funny. I don’t know why, but it cracks me up that you’re willing to deal with drool tracks. These are very noticeable after an afternoon nap, as the day’s growth of beard catches dried bits of saliva.
A friend of mine was traveling in rural China, and there was a person on the street offering ear cleaning services. She held a long-handle of ivory with a very small curved spoon at the end. For a small fee she would reach in and scoop out your earwax.
I once reached into Mr. HUS’s ear and scraped with my pinky nail. He looked at me and calmly said, “Please don’t ever do that again.” He cleans his ears everyday, though, so I rarely feel tempted.
@ Ted D
It is bitching when the tone of the comments sound like long, drawn out whines in my head while reading them. You know the bitching has started when the sanity of the female commentors has come into question by the males. I think it’s funny, to be honest. I don’t remember the last thread that created this much of a hullabaloo.
Perhaps it was the “Screwed Either Way” thread?
I don’t recall if they’re the same women but I have no doubt this group would have found you hot as well.
You are exceedingly handsome, becoming less attractive by the day.
@Susan
I don’t consider the ex-GF to be a fool. If she were to read this blog, I think she would be angry about how her actions have been exaggerated and mischaracterized. I know you will disagree, and that’s fine. But I think there are a significant number of people here who aren’t “with you” about what happened, although many would agree with your sentiments if she HAD acted the way she has been portrayed.
HAHAHA! But since food and cooking is clearly not the issue here, I think we need another name…
Butt Walks?
Nut Walks?
Putz Walks?
Agreed. Even among old married folks, this kind of display generally means “never again” for socializing. Bad vibes.
Sassy – “Perhaps it was the “Screwed Either Way” thread?”
Probably Father’s Day. That was just ugly…
@ Ted D
Now that you mention it, that was probably it.
I remember reading only the first 30-50 comments on that thread, and I checked myself out of the conversation after that. It was just plain ugly.
@Susan, BB (1161)
Hmm, in regards to the “price war” with the “Cartel” (ha ha– this is hilarious imagery!):
Have you observed that luxury-brand good retailers never ever ever EVER have “fire sales” or deeply discount their wares? It doesn’t matter on the economy, what the Dow is doing, etc etc.
They just aren’t ever going to compete on “cheapest/quantity” mindset. They set themselves apart in quality. People *have* to work harder to attain this level of goods/services and, strangely, derive a kind of esteem and “bragging rights” in having acquired something that is of no small cost.
Might I suggest this for consideration, instead of the firesale (i.e. race to give the most for the cheapest) mentality.
People will gladly take stuff for free. They’ll even pester and act like jerks to get it sometimes (See: Bad retail customer who have been inconvenienced and immediately demand recompense.)
But they will be most proud of what was the most difficult to attain.
Why does it consistently sound like these women (these so-called feminists) are just a bunch of dejected asshats who are in a constant state of tantrum?
“fertility treatments….do equalize the playing field to a certain extent, allowing women something closer to the same free, adventurous, work-filled years as men. They partially mitigate the maddening fact that men can have babies as late as they want with the promise that women can have them later than they used to.”
Waaa waaa, the menz have such great free sexually-expressed lives, waaaaa
At least this author offers a glimpse of hope. Maybe that will extend into a better understanding of how multi penis recreation is alienates women from the men they desire in the long term.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/roiphe/2012/12/older_parents_are_fertility_treatments_a_good_idea.html
.
@Jason
“I don’t recall if they’re the same women but I have no doubt this group would have found you hot as well.
You are exceedingly handsome, becoming less attractive by the day.”
==
Jason, there was a phenomenon that occurred earlier upthread, where women were talking about how a man can become instantly unattractive in our eyes by displaying poor character, meanness, bigotry, selfishness, etc.
All the girls said they had experienced it, interestingly enough.
About the party…
I totally get it if she already plans before he was ever over, but that did not sound like the case. He was at her place all day saturday, about 25min away, and I believe he fully expected to spend the night with her. This going out with a friend sounded unplanned and when he didnt feel like going out she left him and he went home.
True, I dont know all the details, and its not that big of a deal, but just saying. Ive never ditched a gf at my place to head out with a friend. Hell, id rather spend time with the gf, but maybe that is just me.
I addressed the “ledger” issue above. Aside from that fact that “studies show” such relationships don’t work, I personally would not want to be in one and neither, I am guessing, would a majority of guys.
****This whole discussion shows how ubiquitous and insidious feminism is when several women who consider themselves not feministis and even in certain respects anti-feminists can aggressively push a feminist meme without realizing it.****
Escoffier,
I haven’t read the subsequent 500 or so comments (except for the last 20-25….seems like quite the shitstorm…LOL)….but I could answer your last part but I’d have to use some terms that might give Susan a stroke.
Judging from just the last 20-25 comments….it seems to me that many women are viscerally opposed to doing and providing the sorts of things many men value out of a relationship.
@Jackie
“Might I suggest this for consideration, instead of the firesale (i.e. race to give the most for the cheapest) mentality.”
The problem with this theory is that it will only work for a very limited number of individuals.
A luxury is by definition VERY high quality.
Most people are not of much more or less than average quality.
Trying to sell an average quality item at luxury prices is a poor business model (or so I would assume).
@Susan
“I have simply stated that relationships are regularly ended whenever one person loses interest. I have not said anything about the morality of this.”
Then why is what Jason doing wrong? Causing anger?
If theres no morality theres no cause for anger unless its personally attacking you.
I don’t see that occurring.
“A friend of mine was traveling in rural China, and there was a person on the street offering ear cleaning services. She held a long-handle of ivory with a very small curved spoon at the end. For a small fee she would reach in and scoop out your earwax.”
My wife’s is a little metal (aluminum maybe?) one, gold in colour. And I totally believe this.
Note: She doesn’t offer to clean ears on the street. Ahhh the perks of a relationship.
“many women are viscerally opposed to doing and providing the sorts of things many men value out of a relationship.”
Then they must also be opposed to the next generation of women possessing a similar prickly demeanor. Because few if any are going to be given the chance to pass along their genes…
.
General question.
Ladies.
Do you see cleaning being considered a plus as negative, positive or neutral?
Note: Not a requirement but something that is welcomed.
I think we can all agree that this woman has extremely high MMV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf8G-c_eAhs
Re: luxury goods and “selling” oneself. I joked that I was the cheap made in China version of a top model wife. My husband said, “Cool, I got you at a great deal!”
I also never buy luxury brands nor knock-off imitations…
@Lisa C
Yes, and I believe you have the privilege of being the only female among them!
I feel such envy when I read this, you cannot imagine. Of course, I have no one to blame but myself.
@Jackie
Yes. This is Doris Langley Moore’s main point in the other thread.
I take people’s behavior at face value. I do not take seriously a man who raves about his ex’s femininity and nurturing qualities.
If you want to demonstrate your killer strategy, show me what it bought you. Show me something worth having.
Never, ever, take advice from someone who does not possess what you want.
@Jason
Hmmm. You’re 24, right? Total number of years in LTRs?
@ Hope
Haha you know men’s preferences well.
@Lokland
???I don’t understand what this has to do with Jason. I have no problem with his ending his relationship.
What Jason is doing wrong has nothing to do with his ex. It has to do with his opining about what makes a woman feminine and nurturing. I submit (bwhahahaha!) that cleaning a man’s apartment is not a reasonable standard. We have a difference of opinion, that’s all.
@Susan
“What Jason is doing wrong has nothing to do with his ex. It has to do with his opining about what makes a woman feminine and nurturing. I submit (bwhahahaha!) that cleaning a man’s apartment is not a reasonable standard.”
Why is it unreasonable?
You’ve adamantly expressed that you view it as unreasonable.
You’ve, as of yet, not demonstrated why. (Though perhaps I’m skimming to quickly.)
Personally, the only unreasonable standards are those that reduce the mating pool to 0.
“We have a difference of opinion, that’s all.”
No we don’t. I view it as a positive but far from necessary.
“Yes, and I believe you have the privilege of being the only female among them!”
I believe that’s true. Hope, while expressing her own views about cleaning, did stay clear of commenting on Jason’s situation.
What can I say? Sometimes you have to break away from the herd. HanSolo is really to blame since he was begging for female input.
@ Susan
And you complain about female commenters getting alienated here…
@Lisa C
Sure, blame it on me! lol
Aside to Chewy: Laugh it up fuzzball. You didn’t see us alone in the south passageway….
I reserve the right to alienate whomever I please, as it is my blog.
You, OTOH, should be on your best behavior.
@Lokland
I do not make a habit of cleaning other people’s homes. Nor have I seen evidence that it arouses commitment from the kind of men I deem high value.
I’m already outside the herd! Must you draw attention to me?
The good news is that my 16 year old daughter reads HUS, so we will have plenty to discuss. I tried to summarize the comments for her (since she is busy studying for exams), but she really needs to read the comments in their entirety to appreciate them. Maybe I can persuade her to cosign my opinions, and then there would be two of us …
Personally, I would never commit to or, especially, wife up a woman who didn’t voluntary groom my back and remove any black heads..
I can not tell you how grossed out that makes my husband. He refuses to groom or be groomed.
@Lokland
“Why is it unreasonable? (…) Personally, the only unreasonable standards are those that reduce the mating pool to 0.”
Reminds me of that old Beach boys song: Round round, get around, I get around, I get around round round……..
Or spinning the wheels in one direction.
“I do not make a habit of cleaning other people’s homes.”
Should sound fair to anyone’s standards, no?
@ INTF #1187
Agreed
General FWIW-
My last GF spontaneously offered to scrub my bathtub the summer of last year. I believe this occurred after she had a shower at my place.* That said, a couple weeks prior I had spent an afternoon helping her do some cleaning at her place (she has a 20% compression fracture in her back and can’t lift heavy objects). Her actions were not a required by any stretch of the imagination, but highly appreciated. Unfortunately, for various other reasons the relationship didn’t workout.
*My parent’s house is in an area with very hard water, so to keep the tub from looking yellow-stained you would literally have to clean it every 3-5 weeks. How often my Mom actually cleans it is the family equivalent to a State Secret, but means that no one in my family really cares what state the shower is in (within reason**). Besides, you’re standing under hot water anyway.
**Though once my Mom asked my Dad “If I were killed in a flaming car wreck, how long would it take before you cleaned the bathroom?” He told her that he would wait until the mold became big enough to attack him, at which point he would shoot it.
Maybe I can persuade her to cosign my opinions, and then there would be two of us …
Raises tiny hand. Sorry I do think domesticity is a plus for women and I’m not surprised that men find it a plus,the only problem I have is that the lady in question did it for a promiscuous/unrestricted guy, I’m sure the right guy would had sealed the deal with it,YMMV
@Anacaona
Agreed & +1
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