Don’t be Carrie
The Millennials, or Generation Y, are currently aged 10-28. The oldest are just reaching the average age at marriage, and though 70% of them plan to marry and 74% want children, there are indications that many women are frustrated with their dating lives. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman) What’s the problem? Their careers.
In Why Are So Many Professional Millennial Women Unable To Find Dateable Men?, Larissa Faw of Forbes writes:
My Millennial-aged girl friends and I never doubted that we would accomplish all of our life goals. Everything, thus far, has pretty much gone according to our plans. We were accepted into the right college, landed the dream job, and developed a network of amazing friends. Our apartments are beautifully decorated and we have closets full of stylish clothing. Romance hasn’t been entirely sidelined, but we don’t waste our time trying to cultivate a relationship unless someone is really amazing.
But now, a growing number of Millennial women are beginning to fret over the unanticipated consequences of prioritizing our careers before love. And I only need to look at my group of friends to see this reality. Again and again, year after year, my successful, gorgeous, and amazing friends remain kiss-less on New Year’s Eve. And on Valentine’s Day. And on the 4th of July. The only dateable men we encounter are either attached, gay, or otherwise involved in “it’s complicated” situations. We are coming to the realization that we were unwittingly playing a game of musical chairs — while everyone was pairing up, those focused on our careers are left standing alone.
I’ve been using the musical chairs metaphor since I began blogging – it’s been clear for two decades that women were outperforming men in education, and the current college ratio of 57% female, 43% male makes it undeniable that we have a serious problem with marriage prospects.
One third of today’s female college graduates will not marry a college educated male.
There are two reasons why Millennial women at the upper end of the age range are single and lonely:
1. They want high achieving men, and there aren’t enough of them to go around.
2. They are ambitious in their careers but lazy about their love lives.
For one, it’s not as if we are holding out for Jake Gyllenhaal, but we do have certain non-negotiable expectations for potential mates that include college degrees and white-collar jobs. Life has always gone according to our plans, so why wouldn’t we land a man with these (reasonable) requirements?
This unwillingness to settle for less than we think we deserve is joined by a lax attitude towards searching for potential mates. We’re busy dominating the world. We don’t have time to hang out at bars. While some of us explore online dating or take a more proactive approach, the majority of Millennial women have long assumed we would meet Prince Charming via friends, or through their own social circles.
There’s nothing women can do about the sex ratio in college, but they can certainly be strategic in their search for a mate. Indeed, it is not a random game of musical chairs. By making the right choices, you can get a tipoff on when the music is about to stop.
How Millennial Women Really Feel About Their Careers
Faw observes that many young women are burning out at work by age 30:
Today, 53% of corporate entry-level jobs are held by women, a percentage that drops to 37% for mid-management roles and 26% for vice presidents and senior managers, according to McKinsey research.
She notes that “Many also didn’t think of their lives beyond landing the initial first job…Even those who did plot out their lives past the initial first career have unrealistic expectations about full-time employment. It’s not as if these women expected their jobs to be parties and good times, but many underestimated the actual day-to-day drudgery.”
More importantly:
While earlier generations may have opted out of the workforce through marriage or motherhood, these paths aren’t viable for these self-sufficient women, who either are still single or unwilling to be fully supported by men.
Meghan Casserley, in Is ‘Opting Out’ The New American Dream For Working Women? confirms that most working women (not just Millennials) want to step off the career track:
At a moment in history when the American conversation seems to be obsessed with bringing attention to women in the workplace (check out “The End of Men,” or Google “gender paygap” for a primer), it seems a remarkable chasm between what we’d like to see (more women in the corporate ranks) and what we’d like for ourselves (getting out of Dodge). But it’s true: according to our survey, 84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to.
“I think what we’re seeing here is a backlash over the pressure we’ve seen for women to perform, perform, perform both at work and at home,” says Leslie Morgan-Steiner, the author of Mommy Wars: Stay-at-Home and Career Moms Face Off on Their Choices, Their Lives, Their Families. “Over the past three to five years we’ve seen highly educated women—who we’d imagine would be the most ambitious—who are going through med school, getting PhDs with the end-goal in mind of being at home with their kids by age 30.”
Arguably the most famous working mom in corporate America today, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, wants women to stop dropping out. In her widely viewed TED Talk, Why We Have Too Few Women Leaders, Sandberg tells women the most important thing is to “Keep your foot on the gas pedal!” and not take any more time off for kids than is absolutely necessary. She holds herself up as a model of a loving and involved mother who also happens to have a big job. However, close viewing of the Talk reveals the following inconsistency:
“My daughter, who’s three…” (early in the talk)
“I have a 5 year old son and a two year old daughter.” (end of the talk)
This is a woman who does not know the age of her own child.
Kay Hymowitz, in The Plight of the Alpha Female acknowledges that Sandberg’s exhortations are futile.
Feminists have come up with some theories to explain the dearth of women in the C-suite: those in the running would necessarily be aggressive, a trait that men in power don’t like to see in women; executives and boards don’t believe that women are capable of the highest-octane work; women lack men’s sense of entitlement in the pursuit of fame and fortune. But “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All,” a recent, widely discussed Atlantic cover story, should help redirect the conversation to the obvious: it’s the kids.
…Women are less inclined than men to think that power and status are worth the sacrifice of a close relationship with their children…Nothing in the array of work/family policy prescriptions—family leave, child care, antidiscrimination lawsuits, flextime, and getting men to cut their work hours—will lead women to infiltrate the occupational 1 percent. They simply don’t want to.
Hymowitz argues that this strong female preference to be at home with children is what makes the “end of men” argument silly. Still, I don’t think society is in good shape when we expect men to play second string, getting in the game only after women have opted out by choice. And what does that mean for men who want to marry? How can they advance in their careers when women who plan to step off in less than ten years are front and center until then, scooping up promotions?
Your Best Strategy For Finding a Mate
Prioritize relationships.
Don’t waste time halfwaying it or “just having fun” if you want to marry and have a family.
Date for the long-term.
If you don’t meet your future spouse in college (few people do), immediately upon graduating think of every potential relationship as serious and lasting. No dating Mr. Right Now.
Filter, filter, filter.
Dads not cads. Filter in for character, and drop the checklist of superficial stuff.
Put the word out.
Don’t pretend to be fabulously single unless you want to stay that way. Let your friends, family and coworkers know you’re in it to win it. Accept as many invitations, blind dates, and introductions as you possibly can. Dial down the bar scene as your go-to weekend plan. Your chances of meeting your husband in a bar are not nil, but they’re slim.
Your Best Strategy For Staying Home With Your Kids
Penelope Trunk wrote a post with some excellent advice: How to plan a career in your 20s to stay home with kids in your 30s.
Key points:
Understand that your job performance is ephemeral.
For those of you who will fall into the 84% [who want to stay home], understand that the life you have as a high performer at work is going to end when you have kids. Priorities will change, and it will not matter that you are a high performer because you will not choose to sustain that when you have kids. Work is a place where you get external rewards for being smart and productive and a good team member. You do not get that at home.
Accept that you will fall behind.
Women are performing at a higher level at work than men are right now. So, statistically speaking, when you decide to stay home with kids, the people you were better than will start moving ahead of you. It will kill you. Prepare for this. It works best to think of your career as a time in your life. You were a high performer when you did it, but now it’s over.
Live below your means.
You know at age 23 if it’s likely that you’ll want to stay home with kids. Which means the minute you get married you should adjust your spending for one income. This will always keep the door open for you to stay home with kids.
Pick your spouse carefully.
If you want to stay home with kids, don’t marry a guy who can’t earn a living. If you want to stay home with kids, make it clear that even though you earn more than the guy, the guy will be the breadwinner. If you want to stay home with kids then you put all your financial hopes in the guy’s career. Whatever his earning ability is, then that is your earning ability, because you are a team, and he is the breadwinner.
Don’t be the woman who turns 30 and says, “Whaaaaa?” Plan ahead. Be smart. When the music stops, you want to get a chair, and with any luck it won’t be a barstool.
{ 1314 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Hope
“I joked that I was the cheap made in China version of a top model wife. My husband said, “Cool, I got you at a great deal!”
I also never buy luxury brands nor knock-off imitations…”
===
As long as he treats you like the Hope (Diamond), that’s what counts!
I have inherited or been gifted a very few luxury-level items. And holy cow, it’s amazing how well-constructed they are compared to today. My grandmother’s LV luggage is at least 50+ years old and that stuff is STILL in great shape. I like knock-offs of the trendy stuff, too.
“I do not make a habit of cleaning other people’s homes. Nor have I seen evidence that it arouses commitment from the kind of men I deem high value.”
===
It might be interesting to see if there is evidence of this– I am trying to think of this being referenced anywhere and am coming up zilch. I was waiting in line in the grocery store and saw the magazines that featured holiday cooking, making your home beautiful, and of course, the ubiquitous ones featuring how to look hot. But cleaning your way into his heart– nothin’!
I’d also like to hear from happily married people how their spouse won them over (or was won over) by cleaning. It just seems like a high-investment low-return strategy. (Unless you love cleaning, and there ARE those folks out there!)
“But cleaning your way into his heart– nothin’! (…)I’d also like to hear from happily married people how their spouse won them over (or was won over) by cleaning.”
Well said. As of today, I neither have seen this being a winning “loving argument”.
Funny how the debate got so over heated over the matter, all of a sudden. This too me looks like an already “cul de sac” rightfully won long ago by women.
I’m willing to spend a bit more money on well made, good quality items, especially if it’s something that I’m going to wear every day. But for me at least, I’ve found the difference in quality between the slightly more expensive items vs. the really-expensive items to be negligible.
And I’m not really going anywhere with this metaphor. I just find it kind of funny that even my wardrobe is “greater beta”.
P.S- This is even more off-topic, but there is a lot of amazing cheap make up out there, and lots of expensive make up that sucks. For girls who don’t want to waste money through trial-and-error, http://www.makeupalley.com/ is your friend.
pricing strategies?
oh the joys of selling a house.
I mean, you want top dollar, the luxury price. You only need one buyer who will agree with your valuation…but how long do you spend with it unsold before you consider that it is over- priced for the current market? or even if the price is right, can you live with not making the sale?
this is high stakes gambling ladies n gentlemen. not that I advocate marriage for men, or being settled for (mainly for men).
and of course the other part to consider is are you advertising your wares in the right places?
as you go about your life, ladies, who do you meet? if it’s 60 year old ladies, young women or married male parents…oops. Make some Damn changes!
Hope and Ana have recently discussed their strategies, why not have a ponder about where you might be going wrong. and ask whether something that haan’ t worked for the last ten years is something that you should double down on. Put down the books and blogs and get out there. okay some blogs might help and are great social places, but c’mon this isn’t’ t a dating site people!
And I truly wish you luck in finding a great partner as Hope, Ana et al have. Yes, really.
(same goes for men BTW)
So you don’t enjoy staying in on an evening and picking bugs out of each other’s fur?
Jackie, I think even non-luxury brands were better made years ago. Things just fall apart more now, due to planned obsolescence.
About magazines of cooking and decorating the home, I’ve seen some articles with cleaning tips, but not many. It falls under “keeping a place looking good,” though usually not explicitly stated. Kind of like “keeping your face looking good” with makeup tips, cleaning the pores isn’t usually mentioned! :p
Emily, lol “greater beta” wardrobe. Mine would probably be “lesser beta.”
JuTR – “Ted D, man, I agree with the other guys. I’d trust you at my back, and since you don’t know me, I’ll state that is not an easy goal to accomplish.”
Thanks man. I truly appreciate the vote of confidence.
@Susan
“I do not make a habit of cleaning other people’s homes. Nor have I seen evidence that it arouses commitment from the kind of men I deem high value.”
I promise I’m not being intentionally dense.
How does this equate to unreasonable?
Susan – “Nor have I seen evidence that it arouses commitment from the kind of men I deem high value.”
Now THIS is an interesting comment that has my head churning.
It makes sense that perhaps the men YOU see as ‘high value’ don’t care much about domestic skills. Maybe they have the money to afford a maid, or maybe YOUR idea of what “high value” means is different from other women. (which I’m sure you’ll agree is likely)
So, as I alluded to earlier, it seems the vast majority of women here at HUS do not see Jason as a viable husband candidate. Nothing wrong with that, and I’m sure he would agree. But, does that mean that other women don’t find him suitable? And, if we can agree that there ARE women that would see Jason as a great candidate, does it stand to reason that such a woman might be willing to be a “domestic goddess” to snag him? Or, what if Jason is the type of man that simply ATTRACTS women that are more domestically inclined?
I can’t help but see that you and the majority of the ladies here are completely projecting their views to ALL woman. We’ve been down that road, and we can all agree that doing so is destined to be a failure, as there are all types of people in the world. Maybe there are some women (Hope comes to mind…) that simply ENJOY “serving” someone they love. And maybe some of them don’t see a wedding ring as a requirement for that effort.
@ Lokland
If a man wants to see how well I clean, or see how tidy I am, he could glean that information by looking at the state of my own apartment.
With regards to his place, I have no problem with cleaning up after myself. If I eat something, I will clean up and put my dishes in the dishwasher. If I make a mess in the bathroom, I will clean it up. I may even make the bed, since I’ve slept in it.
What I would have a problem with is if a man expected me to clean his place for him. I actually experienced this once with my ex of 1 year. He asked me if I would be willing to clean his bathroom, including the shower/sink/toilet/mopping the floor for him. I looked at him like he was crazy and asked him why he couldn’t clean his own bathroom. He couldn’t give me a good reason, so the conversation was dropped.
I have no problem with women doing nice things for their men. If some women want to clean up after their men, that is completely fine with me. What I don’t agree with is the expectation that a girlfriend should clean up after her man. If I want to clean, I do it out of the goodness of my own heart, not because the bf expects it. I prefer to be generous in other ways. These ways do not include busting suds, personally.
This is all very interesting to me. On the face of it, my male friends who are: A) traditional, LTR-minded, socially conservative and very critical of casual sex…
AND
B) who have the economic capacity to support an SAHM and children in comfort and style…
…would appear to be near-ideal templates for HUS strategist women. However, these same men—all Fisherian Builders, I should add—would also be the most encouraging and appreciative re: a domestic supplicant approach. It seems on casual analysis that the cluster of traits which make an attractive and financially successful man more prone to a traditional, anti-hookup, pro-marriage mentality will also naturally make him more prone to expect a traditional male-head-of-household arrangement in which a subordinated female Stepford Wife provides delicious home-cooked meals, a quiet home for post-workday contemplation, sexual relaxation, cleaning and laundry services, etc.
@ Lisa C
Heh, I’m sure we’ve got space in the pack if you’re interested.
Hah I can relate the exam stuff. I’m feeling kinda lousy today after my utter defeat to my final exam yesterday. About halfway into the exam, I thought I was going to fail the class. No matter how hard I tried, I just could not formulate a solution to many of the questions. Then I looked around me. The body language of the other students said it all. Damn the professor is going to curve the class.
@ Jackie
My mother bought me a pot for making rice. It was so thin compared to hers, which was like 30 years old.
Jackie, point well-taken about luxury brands and exclusive pricing. We can become “captured” by those brands if we associate them with desirable personal traits and believe that they reliably signal success to others.
I think it gets complicated when we talk about our relationships. For example, men may appreciate the tough, demanding football coach who hardly gives out encouragement, but one day shakes a player’s hand in a meaningful way and says, “Great job, son.” That compliment was hard-earned and will be remembered.
However, I don’t think men are well-equipped to deal with this kind of strategic withholding from women. This is where we start using terms like “bitch” and “ball-buster” and worse. To outside male observers, the guy who puts up with this looks weak or persecuted in some way—the signal is not one that conveys mastery or success the way that ownership of an exclusive product like, say, an Aston-Martin will.
Perhaps domestic supplication appears to women to be something equivalent to slut behavior (with similar long-term effects on the woman’s self-esteem and reputation), while men typically take an opposing view and imagine an old-fashioned “good girl” Cinderella toiling away with bucket and sponge why the ball-busting female accountants of Jason’s story play the roles of the entitled, wicked step-sisters.
I don’t know what is going on, but perhaps it’s really useful information for both genders to consider…?
Steam. Valve. Blown.
http://jezebel.com/5967923/fuck-you-mras
.
@J
“I can not tell you how grossed out that makes my husband. He refuses to groom or be groomed.”
Yeah, I’m with him. I was being facetious with the original comment, obviously.
Oh, and Susan, I could have done without that video. Man, where do you blog mistresses and blog masters find all that stuff?
So you don’t enjoy staying in on an evening and picking bugs out of each other’s fur?
LOL, no. Me, I’d go for it, but he won’t do it. Something about evolution….
Yeah, I’m with him. I was being facetious with the original comment, obviously.
LOL. That wasn’t clear to me because when my husband has had a painful zit on his back where he couldn’t get it, I have volunteered to do a little home surgery. He won’t let me though.
Jackie, point well-taken about luxury brands and exclusive pricing. We can become “captured” by those brands if we associate them with desirable personal traits and believe that they reliably signal success to others.
Exactly. Here is the saddest example in my view. Thirty years ago, Coach used to make high quality leather handbags that were upscale yet still affordable. They were conservatively styled, lasted forever, could be sent back to the factory for “reconditioning” when they started looking warn and had a small discreet tag with the Coach name on them. Now Coach bags are extremely expensive, made of cloth, are stylied for obsolescence and are covered in big ass Cs.
When I was a college student, I was a salesgirl in a very upscale store that sold Coach bags, and I would envy the middle-aged suburban matrons who could afford them. Now that I am a middle-aged suburban matron who can afford them, they’re expensive crap. If someone wants to sell me something covered with initials, the initial better be J.
A while ago, as we were walking throught the mall, I stopped in front of the Coach store to see if, somewhere on the back shelves, there were some classic bags hiding. Though he was surprised that I was looking at something so tacky, DH offered to buy me a bag. I explained the situation. He shook his head and said, “Garbage culture.”
Whoops. Warn = worn.
@Lokland
My point was that it is bad strategy, male expectations aside.
@Ted
No, I’ve already said that happy relationships come in all forms, and that there are couples very happy with a Taken in Hand very subservient approach. I speak only for myself, as a person who believes in gender equity. (Different but equal.)
I’ve just put up a new post on the topic – let’s move the convo there.
Sassy at 1212 is pure awesomeness.
I got my wallet at the Coach outlet store in Carmel CA in 1991 (I think) and it is still going strong. I wonder if it will ever give out.
@BB
Yikes. I’d love to see a couple of them post a profile saying exactly that on Match, and see how many takers these dashing fellows get. I suspect that most women do not seek men who are “very critical of casual sex.” Even I would reject such a man, as it implies a level of such restricted sexuality that it doesn’t bode well for sexual compatibility. One also wonders why men would be very critical of it unless they were super religious or incapable of getting it.
Hilarious and so true!
In my new post I go so far as to call Cinderella’s behavior self-debasing. Indeed, that is how she herself felt.
@Passer By
Someone linked to it once before, and I watched it with a grim fascination. I stuck around for the whole 4 minutes too. I’ll admit I was gagging.
@Susan
S: “It has to do with his opining about what makes a woman feminine and nurturing. I submit (bwhahahaha!) that cleaning a man’s apartment is not a reasonable standard. ” 1188
L: “Why is it unreasonable?
You’ve adamantly expressed that you view it as unreasonable.
You’ve, as of yet, not demonstrated why. (Though perhaps I’m skimming to quickly.)
S: “I do not make a habit of cleaning other people’s homes. Nor have I seen evidence that it arouses commitment from the kind of men I deem high value.”
L: Why is it unreasonable?
S “My point was that it is bad strategy, male expectations aside.”
—————————
The original point was that Jason had unreasonable expectations for what constituted femininity and therefore deserved the verbal lashing he received.
If its simply a bad strategy, should it not be Jason’s ex, not Jason facing criticism?
Since, I assume you mean, is what you actually mean that it is not an unreasonable standard for what constitutes femininity but one which most women are either unable or unwilling to do and therefore should not be an expectation?
I assume the answer there would be yes.
Which begs the question, why is what Jason did wrong if all he did was have unrealistic expectations?
Good lord Susan, you get further and further “left” by the day. You may be a full-fledged feminist by Jan 1 at this rate.
Now women need to reject men who are opposed to casual sex? Nice little shiv at the end, the jezebel/feministing taunt that “you can’t get laid.”
Since I assume what you actually mean ….
@Esc
“Now women need to reject men who are opposed to casual sex? Nice little shiv at the end, the jezebel/feministing taunt that “you can’t get laid.””
I feel like this is 4th grade all over again.
@Just1Z
…I guess technically it’s all right, since all I said was no bodies.
@Susan Walsh
“I don’t know why, but it cracks me up that you’re willing to deal with drool tracks. These are very noticeable after an afternoon nap, as the day’s growth of beard catches dried bits of saliva.”
If it helps a handsome man look more handsome… I think part of it is thanks to family members who haven’t always been ‘on top’ of things. Better drool on hypothetical husband’s face than (???) from my brother in my toothbrush.
@Lokland
I see it as neutral.
If that’s what the man likes, then that’s his preference.
@Emily
“This is even more off-topic, but there is a lot of amazing cheap make up out there”
I have cardboard boxes full of Avon stuff!
@J
Thanks for the warning, my dad got me a Coach bag one year (didn’t ask for it, honest) and I’ve been scared to take it anyplace. Do you think I can make it last OK if I just take it to church on Christmas or something?
I’ve already criticized Jason’s ex for poor strategy. I focus on the point of strategy because I am advising young women, and my advice is to refrain from performing household chores in someone else’s household. It is not your job, nor does it produce additional male commitment. I’ll admit I have never cleaned a man’s place when I didn’t live there, but I can say that never in my life has it been requested or implied that I should, or even that it would be nice.
What I objected to was Jason’s statement that someone else’s gf was highly undesirable as a mate, in part because she did no cooking or cleaning in an apartment where she sleeps once a week. I find that standard outrageous and unreasonable, as I said. He may strike whatever bargains he likes in his own relationships, but I strongly disagree with his list of qualifications. I believe it is appropriate for me to debate here the question of what makes a good girlfriend.
He later went on to defend the guy who screamed that his gf should stand her friends up for lunch to clean his kitchen for an Open House for his condo. Said from his bed, btw, as he grumpily awoke at noon on the day of said Open House.
The Douche Meter broke on that one.
@Escoffier
BB said “extremely critical of casual sex,” not just opposed. That implies either strong religiosity/orthodoxy or a desire to shift the norm to something that puts you closer to the middle of the bell curve. This is something Bastiat Blogger, Mule Chewing Briars and others have pointed out without a peep of objection from you, btw.
I do believe there are some men who would refuse casual sex if offered, though not many. Only a small percentage of those would be “extremely critical” in my estimation.
I am “extremely critical,” hence I can’t get laid. QED.
Come on, Susan, you know how to argue better than this.
@ Lokland,
1-Being subservient was a bad strategy for Jason’s ex. She gave too much too fast to someone who didn’t care for her and ultimately dumped her.
2-Jason developed expectations based on her behavior as to what a good girlfriend must do to show she cares and judge his roommate’s girlfriend on basis. Appreciation is good; Expectations are not. Why use your misguided expectations as a gauge for what should or shouldn’t be? Should all women receive flowers on their birthdays because my bf gives me some? Are other women’s bfs unworthy of commitment because they do not meet MY standards?
You’ll agree that is absurd, and that is what is being discussed here in Jason’s case.
Both are unhealthy way to handle relationships.
Stop twisting things around. It has been suggested here by numerous men that there is a correlation between sexual success and sexual attitudes. We know it’s not 1.0 because people vary in their sociosexuality. Here is what Mule Chewing Briars said last week:
and Bastiat Blogger:
It’s not meant to shame anyone it’s a real factor in the SMP, and therefore a fair topic for discussion.
BB’s comment is acutally perfectly compatible with moral (and other) considerations. That is, it’s about guys who recognize the bad effects casual sex on society as a whole.
Your comment was more like: “you’re losers.”
Well, look, I think it’s perfectly legit for (say) the American middle class to object for 40 years of stagnating wages and the winner take all nature of the modern economy. One response to that, as evidenced e.g., in an Atlantic piece I linked a while back, is for smug rich Davos-class assholes to say “If you had the chops, you’d be rich like us, you’re poor because you’re stupid and lazy, i.e., you deserve it.”
Well the fact is that if you arrange society in this way, then a few will benefit and the many will suffer. Sex appears to be subjcet to the same market dynamic. Set up a system like we have now, a few (men) will benefit and the many will suffer. So, even if were true that “I can’t get laid,” that would not be my only ground for objection. I object both for moral reasons and because the system is terrible.
Thanks for the warning, my dad got me a Coach bag one year (didn’t ask for it, honest) and I’ve been scared to take it anyplace. Do you think I can make it last OK if I just take it to church on Christmas or something?
I dont know that much about the new bags. I would actually go to the store or website for care intructions and warranty info.
I got my wallet at the Coach outlet store in Carmel CA in 1991 (I think) and it is still going strong. I wonder if it will ever give out.
It might not. The were still manking great stuff in ’91. And they still may be refurnishing their leather goods.
In the meantime, I watch estate sales for the older, classic bags. Indestructible and never go out of style!
@Escoffier
Here is what I said about men who are “extremely critical of casual sex:”
Men who have the option of casual sex and are very critical of it must have a set of beliefs that labels it as very, very wrong.
Men who do not have the option of casual sex are also likely to practice cognitive dissonance and condemn it in an extreme manner.
I did not mean to brand anyone a loser, as I do not define men as winners according to their degree of sexual success, as we have discussed before.
Beta Males’ Sex Lives Improved Absolutely After the Sexual Revolution
I provided reasons distinct from religion and missing out and you just skipped over them.
BTW, the GLP link and your claim that men who object must be mission out stand in tension at the very least. One might even say they contradict one another.
Beyond that, GLP link does not deliver on the promise of its title. All it even tries to show is that betas post-SR lose their virgities earlier and that more unmarried men are able to get sex occasionally now than then. It says nothting about frequency, quality (with whom), relationship quality or longevity, frequncy and quality of sex within marriage, or outside for that matter, or about divorce or any of that.
@Susan
I am pretty much in agreement with Jason on the merits I am pretty sure I am not a douche-bag.
The case of the condo-couple is just mind-boggling to me. If they are planning on moving in together and are planning on getting married, I am not sure what the objection is to sharing household chores while they are still living in separate condos. I get that the guy is being a dick, and irresponsible to boot, and I wouldn’t say “Marry Him!” but I don’t see how helping to clean before an Open House=unreasonable.
I also do not see telling your future spouse to fuck off or running off to your girlfriends to discuss a problem without discussing it with said spouse is good. But I don’t have all the details on this situaton.
I also strongly disapprove of casual sex. It’s a big part of my personality. If girls want to hone in on that and reject me, or any other guy for that matter, that’s really their own loss.
“I don’t want to have a long-term relationship with this guy, he disapproves of casual sex!” is mind-boggling to me?
“Men who have the option of casual sex and are very critical of it must have a set of beliefs that labels it as very, very wrong.
Men who do not have the option of casual sex are also likely to practice cognitive dissonance and condemn it in an extreme manner.”
Or experience may have taught them that it’s a bad idea.
Or they could be perfectionistic.
I’m also not certain that there was a “sexual revolution” in the way in which we think of it.
I mean, do we really know what social mores really were during the High Middle Ages, etc.?
Or are we just comparing this to the Victorian period or something?
Life didn’t start in the 1960′s.
“Now women need to reject men who are opposed to casual sex? Nice little shiv at the end, the jezebel/feministing taunt that “you can’t get laid.””
“I feel like this is 4th grade all over again.”
That is exactly what the current “wave” of feminism is. The Sandbox Wave
Do you mean where you said you object for moral reasons and that the system is terrible? My GLP link was just to suggest that the system is not as terrible as you might think in terms of males’ access to sex.
Don’t you think more men have more sex today than at any previous point in history?
@ADBG
Did you miss the part where I said she got up and took his dog for a long walk while he slept in? And that she had in fact tidied up the kitchen? He had never said a word to her about the Open House, or his expectations for cleaning, nor had he gotten out of bed to contribute in any way. Then he ordered her to cancel her plans and clean the kitchen, and even then he did not suggest he would help.
I’m proud of her for telling him to fuck off and keeping her plans, and I’m hardly surprised she told them the story, especially as she was a half hour late. Jason’s portraying her as “blathering over mimosas” was a bit too Sex and the City, and completely unfounded.
Verdict: Massive Douchebaggery all around.
Susan, I normally agree with you 90% of the time.
But I absolutely don’t understand how being “very critical of casual sex” makes a guy some sort of extremist. Maybe he just comes from a family or community with traditional values?
Would you consider Megaman an extremist? He’s always very critical of casual sex. I know I’ve been going back and forth with him on here lately… but I would never classify him as an extremist. I think his observations and philosophies are perfectly reasonable.
I honestly don’t get this… you always advise girls to go after guys who are restricted and don’t have casual sex. But the second they verbalize that they’re against it, they’re not compatible.
Really just seems like feminism and political correctness run amok to me.
“Don’t you think more men have more sex today than at any previous point in history?”
Sure, that’s because more men are alive today than at any point in history.
Do I think, as the link says, that the sex lives of betas improved after and because of the SR? No, I don’t, and even if I did, his own analysis does not even attempt to demonstrate that.
“Don’t you think more men have more sex today than at any previous point in history?”
How could we even begin to answer this question?
If a guy is restricted, he probably doesn’t care at all about this.
If anything, he’s probably upset that the quality of potential targets for relationships, in his mind, is collectively lower than past years.
@Susan
“I’m proud of her for telling him to fuck off and keeping her plans, and I’m hardly surprised she told them the story, especially as she was a half hour late. ”
ah well, I’m with you on this one; telling him to pivot.
(FWLTW)
@Mir
“Appreciation is good; Expectations are not. ”
I expect my wife to be faithful.
I expect my wife to be a good mother.
These are expectations. The first is not appreciated, it is an expectation that if not completed will end the relationship.
The second will receive appreciation but it is also an expectation. Failure to do so will result in divorce and my trying to take custody of the children.
Expectations are only not good when you suck and can’t meet them.
@Susan
I think the guy yelling at her to clean up and that it had to be spotless was a douchebag and showed definite unwarranted expectations. I don’t think Jason’s original scenario approaches this in the slightest, since cleaning was shown as one of several possible ways to show feminity (now I don’t think cleaning has anything to do with feminity but it could be a nice, unexpected gesture that she could do if she wanted to, and a man could do too for that matter). I think that Jason’s response about mimosas and so on was just a pissed off response. I think he would see the guy as a douche, especially with the added info you just provided that she didn’t even know the party or whatever was happening and had not agreed to clean (something that wouldn’t be an obligation a priori unless she out of a spirit of helping volunteered).
Related to beta males and sex:
I think most males have more sex and more often (though with less partners) in an assortive-mating environment.
Society since the sexual rev. has moved away from that to a certain extent and so the beta males are waiting longer to have LTR/marriage where you have the highest frequency of sex.
So, I disagree with GLP’s post (though I’m not saying you are agreeing with his post).
@Susan
“What I objected to was Jason’s statement that someone else’s gf was highly undesirable as a mate, in part because she did no cooking or cleaning in an apartment where she sleeps once a week. ”
Would it be equally unreasonable to assume someone else’s bf is an undesirable mate, in part because he is short?
Would it be equally unreasonable to assume someone else’s gf is undesirable mate, in part because she is fat?
————————
The only way you can think of it as wrong as viewing someone less for something is if you think its wrong to judge that trait OR you are mistaken in your view that the only trait be considered was the lack of cleaning.
I will quite firmly state cleaning is a + but not a necessity. A woman who does not clean is a less desirable mate than one who does.
also, Jason’s description was riddled with poor, unfeminine, bitchy behaviour. The lack of cleaning made her LESS desirable not UNdesirable.
@Susan
“He later went on to defend the guy who screamed that his gf should stand her friends up for lunch to clean his kitchen for an Open House for his condo. Said from his bed, btw, as he grumpily awoke at noon on the day of said Open House.
The Douche Meter broke on that one.”
I agree with you here.
That guy sounded like an asshole.
@Mir
“Why use your expectations as a gauge for what should or shouldn’t be?”
Because I feel like it, no one can or will stop me and people will do what I want.
Also, my standards are fairly universal. Society (not media) has got my back.
“Should all women receive flowers on their birthdays because my bf gives me some?”
At a minimum (or the equivalent thereof), also we need to assume they meet the expectations to actually be a girlfriend.
“Are other women’s bfs unworthy of commitment because they do not meet MY standards?”
It depends upon how universal your standards are and how large a population they exclude.
If you standard was a millionaire then no a man who is not that is unworthy.
If your standard was someone capable of providing for a family, then yes someone below that line is unworthy of commitment.
Theres nothing wrong with judging another person based upon your standards.
As it stands Jason’s are fairly reasonable and commonplace (if we take into account that he mentioned many problems other than cleaning).
If a woman is not able to meet those standards… well no one would care anyway.
*If you standard was a millionaire then no a man who is not that is NOT unworthy.
@Susan
If it had been clear up front that she didn’t know about it and had not agreed to help out for it then I would have seen him as a solid douche to begin with.
In your original telling it sort of sounded like she knew about the open house and had loaded the dishwasher and wiped the counters for it because she had agreed to clean for it–now whether she should be expected to or not is another matter but I had the impression she had agreed to–and his freak out seemed over the top anyway.
This all raises the question of why she’s with him. Presumably she could have chosen some other man that was more respectful, but no, she had to choose him. Obviously she values his other qualities or at least how strongly she loves and is attracted to him to overpower the negative douchosity that emanates from him.
@Sassy
“If a man wants to see how well I clean, or see how tidy I am, he could glean that information by looking at the state of my own apartment.”
Not always. I spent a total of 3 nights at my wife’s place before we moved in together. Mine bed was nicer.
“What I don’t agree with is the expectation that a girlfriend should clean up after her man. If I want to clean, I do it out of the goodness of my own heart, not because the bf expects it.”
Interesting.
Jimmy Hendrix – “If anything, he’s probably upset that the quality of potential targets for relationships, in his mind, is collectively lower than past years.”
EXACTLY! Holy shit man, you just summed up most of my angst with hookup culture and loose morality in one sentence.
@Jimmy
Not to nitpick, but it was “extremely critical of casual sex,” which I took to mean holding an extreme position. We’re parsing words now, and I don’t really know precisely what Bastiat Blogger meant. Perhaps he will show up and clarify.
First, this is not an accurate description of my advice. I advise restricted girls to go after restricted guys. As you’ve pointed out, restricted vs. unrestricted is on a spectrum. It really is about compatibility.
Second, I was speaking for myself. As readers here know, I have placed myself roughly in the middle of the sociosexuality spectrum, and I did have some casual sex that I do not regret. Someone who was “extremely critical” of casual sex would obviously not be a good match for me. My husband also had some casual sex, and we have never had any difficulty re sexual history, on either side.
I meant as a percentage of the population. It would be interesting to know the percentage of adult male virgins throughout history, as well as a typical frequency of sex, and number of lifetime partners.
@Lokland
I would certainly hope so! These are very reasonable expectations, obviously, as they serve the needs of the family.
Other expectations might not be so good. For example:
I expect my wife to remain highly sexually active at all times throughout her pregnancy and immediately thereafter.
Not so good for the family.
“I did have some casual sex that I do not regret.”
Yes and no, though, right? You didn’t regret it in the sense that you carry some tremendous guilt baggage to this day or long after. But you did regret it in the sense that you didn’t enjoy it, only did it a few times, and stopped, never to do it again.
I get what you’re saying if all you mean is that you could not be with a man whose opinion of casual sex was so anti- that he looked on you as permanently damaged goods. I would advise you not to marry such a man either.
@Lokland
Yes, it would! My son is short, and I would take great exception to that claim. He is a very desirable mate to the person who loves him. Similarly, it is not for you to say that a fat girl is disgusting as an absolute judgment, as there are men who specifically seek the company of Rubenesque women. What you might call disgusting re booty size will give another guy an instant boner.
For all Jason’s criticism of his roommate’s gf, he mentions they have been together for years, and that they are likely to marry.
Who wins in the reproduction sweepstakes? I’m betting on roomie.
It is truly a mystery. I wrote a post about her once, when she ran the Boston Marathon. Suffice to say I got a bunch of inquiries from guys in the Boston area. A lithe, athletic, blonde beauty with dimples. A solid 8.
Fiance closely resembles Charlie Brown. Yes, the Peanuts guy. He is dark, though. His personality is controlling and anxious. He was fired recently for not being able to get along well with others. He dislikes her having any plans with others. He has a shaved head with many visible scars, but speaks with a high, effeminate, lisping voice. He is about 40 pounds overweight.
I had dinner with them and was frankly astounded. He is one of the least appealing males I have ever interacted with. I am extremely worried and baffled by this engagement.
True, it wasn’t very enjoyable. I honestly did not want to see or hear from any of those men again, so there was no regret that things didn’t go further. It wasn’t for me. I found that I was happiest in a monogamous relationship with someone of similar sex drive.
But I can’t say I regret those encounters. I never really had to “pay” for them. I view them as part of my growing up experience. I suppose if I had fallen in love with someone who freaked out about it, I would feel differently.
Oof, ancient history. I don’t want to go there!
I still think a lot of this entire extra-marital/casual sex issue is more morality related than restrictedness-related.
It depends on what moral framework you adopt early in life and where you put sex on the spectrum of human behaviors.
Do you view it as a “sin of the flesh” and something to be avoided because of the “complete depravity of man” or do you view it as an unalloyed good as long as you don’t get diseases or unwanted pregnancy? How do you make this determination? In order to approach this, you need some framework to think about the nature and purpose of man and on the nature and purpose of freedom, human law, and choice.
I always took it as a question of morality rather than a question of personal preference.
Perhaps it’s time to reflect again on the concept of Total Depravity in the context of the development of morality in the West.
I like this phrase: “even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition.”
“Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather all are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passion, and will, and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in Reformed theology, if God is to save anyone God must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of choosing God.[8]
Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through humanity.[9]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
“He was fired recently for not being able to get along well with others. ”
This is generally a bar to competitive employment.
I often use mental impairments such as this to establish that a client is disabled due to an inability to interact appropriately with supervisors, co-workers, and the general public.
He’s an accountant and has already found a new job, but the prior situation is just a huge red flag. “Doesn’t play well with others” is used to describe oppositional and antisocial personalities. NOT marriage material, IMO.
I don’t know if oppositional and antisocial personalities are included in the DSM-V.
They may have been eliminated from existence, like Asperger syndrome.
We’ll have to wait to see.
It’s always exciting when a new DSM comes out!
@Susan
“It would be interesting to know the percentage of adult male virgins throughout history, as well as a typical frequency of sex, and number of lifetime partners.”
Just a general guessing type scenario but that whole agricultural revolution thing probably dropped the proportion of male virgins way more than the sexual revolution did.
Note: Assuming we measure virginity as a willing partner.
@Susan
“Yes, it would! My son is short, and I would take great exception to that claim. He is a very desirable mate to the person who loves him.”
So am I. Isn’t your husband like 6′?
I would hope so.
That doesn’t change that being short lowers a mans overall SMV and makes him therefore less desirable (and to many undesirable).
If 90% of people think the sweater is black, no matter how much you may insist its a deep, royal, navy blue that mimics the ocean, its black.
“Similarly, it is not for you to say that a fat girl is disgusting as an absolute judgment,”
Of course not.
Absolutes don’t really exist. However, what % of men would you say are chubby chasers?
Surely not enough to conclude that tela-tubbies are hot.
*Repeat sweater example.
@Lokland
“I would certainly hope so! These are very reasonable expectations, obviously, as they serve the needs of the family.
Other expectations might not be so good. For example:
I expect my wife to remain highly sexually active at all times throughout her pregnancy and immediately thereafter.”
On the list of things I really cannot grasp people wanting to do or why the enjoy them.
Prego porn comes in a very firm second place.
Right underneath having sex with a football sized vagina with a baby screaming in the other room.
Me trying to pressure my wife for sex right after the baby comes will be a non-issue.
——–
My original point was to counter Mir’s statement that expectations are bad, evil, slimy worms and appreciation is better.
I expect my employees to work. I don’t say thank you, I pay them.
Expectations only suck when you can’t meet them and are excluded for failing to meet them. When your above and those expectations offer social insulation against dealing with undesirables, their a very good thing.
@ Susan
No, quite the opposite. More variety, sure, but much less frequency. Men had way more sex in previous points in history when teenage marriage was the norm.
@ Jimmy Hendricks
Exactly.
@INTJ
How are the exams going? I had a 24-hr open-book, take-home quant-mech final in my PhD that I had that feeling at first that I didn’t know how to do the problems and panicked that I would fail.
I understand you’ve been busy with finals but curious if you can summarize what the Buss paper says about preselection and if it addresses how that changes how men perceive females’ looks.
@ HanSolo
Hehe. I love open-book exams though. Don’t have to study for them.
My final project presentation and other final went well (though I did notice a flaw in my final project calculations that changes the final quantitative results by like 10%, but luckily there wasn’t any real change qualitatively speaking).
I think it clearly demonstrates that on a first impression visual level, men prefer (by a very small margin) women without men around them – probably because the downsides of increased male competition outweigh any preselection bias. In contrast, women were clearly prone to preselection, with men getting a boost of almost 1 SMV from it – and this is big when one considers that the average non-preselected man was rated less than 4. I was also interested to see that overall, the average rating of men by women was 4, while the average rating of other women by women was 6.
However, the Buss study only worked with a visual image, which might not be a good model for real interactions. However, one can add diversity by considering the following study that shows that women find a man more attractive if he’s said to be in a relationship instead of single (whereas men don’t care). The caveat of course is that having lived in Stillwater, I’d say that the average social intelligence of women at OSU is probably significantly less than at other colleges.
http://psychology.okstate.edu/faculty/mburkley/Melissa_Burkley,_Ph.D._Social_Cognition_Lab/Publications_files/Parker%20%26%20Burkley%20%2809%29%20Mate%20Poaching.pdf
@INTJ
Thanks for the summary. Interesting about the women finding the average non-preselected man as a 4 in SMV.
I had dinner with a girl I’m kind of seeing tonight. She said she thinks 75% of men are ugly, 12.5% average and 12.5% good looking! lol
The bad thing about take homes though is they make them so hard that the text book doesn’t help much! lol
@ HanSolo
Haha. I guess by “average” she means mean, not median, and that male looks are heavily right-skewed.
It’s kind of consistent with another girl I once asked who thought 90% were ugly. Also sort of consistent with the okcupid where 80% of men were rated less than medium: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
So, there you go!
@ HanSolo
Makes me wonder. When they say I’m “among the most attractive people on OkCupid”, it probably means I’m getting two or three star ratings…
Yeah, you’re amongst the most attractive 99%!
Joe, women should do it and men not so that we can have some ratios in our favor.
@ HanSolo
Well there’s always UNC for us.
Susan, wow. The guy sounds awful. Unfortunately, I’ve been in a similar situation and didn’t get out until years later. The guy caught me while I was young and naive.
Don’t tell her to leave. Instead ask her if she would want a son exactly like this guy, and if she would be proud. Or to have a daughter be yelled at by controlling, abusive men like this guy. Sometimes invoking the maternal instinct is what can snap a young woman back into reality.
@INTJ
Thanks for linking the Burkley study. I found it interesting that attached males were more interested than attached females in pursuing the target. In fact, it looks like attached men were more interested in attached women than single men were interested in single women!
This is also very interesting:
The attractiveness ratings did not show this same pattern, suggesting that attraction ratings do not capture the same dynamic as
our interest in pursuit questions. This suggests that research investigating mate poaching should avoid only relying on attraction
questions and should include items that tap into the broader range of mate poaching experiences.
In Buss’ comprehensive study of 53 countries, here is what they found:
This is interesting, and not particularly surprising, IMO:
+ 1000!
That’s excellent advice. It forces you to examine his character.
IME, this is a good indicator of whether or not you should break up with a guy if your relationship is on the rocks. It’s how I finally decided to call things off for good with my Ex.
@HanSolo
Re the OKCupid study, women were much harsher judges of looks than men were, but women messaged a lot more men who were below average, while men tended to message only women they thought were hot. This is perhaps unsurprising if women value looks less as part of the overall package.
This is an important distinction, because that study is usually pimped in the sphere as indicating that women reject most men. This is not the case, at least not according to that particular study.
This is a pet peeve of mine – the deliberate cherry picking and telling half the story. Grrrrr.
By the way, I surprised this thread is still raging on. I thought we had reached consensus on the last thread. It seems a number of commentors skimmed.. For those who missed it, I’ll repost this exchange between Ted D and myself:
Do you guys agree with assessment?
Meant to say: thought we had reached consensus on the last page*
Also, Ted was responding to my comment at #1051.
I feel this needs to be restated:
The guys are responding like we said women shouldn’t do any domestic tasks until marriage! Not so! In fact, many us shared how we cook for boyfriends and nurture them in other ways. Case in point, my boyfriend raves about my cooking and how he feels it’s better than many restaurants. We spend far more time staying in and enjoying home cooked meals than we dine out. I prefer it that way, and he does as well. I always ask him if he’s hungry or not. Sometimes help me cook or washes dishes. Other times he chills out on the couch while I make the food. It varies. I don’t feel taking the “domestic lead” is supplicating behavior in the least. I think it works best when women do.
However, going full court domestic goddess for a boyfriend (not husband or fiance) IS out of step with the stage of relationship IMO.
David Buss shows up in a New York Times blog and comments on mate poaching:
Why Poach Another’s Mate?
Susan, INTJ – I find these studies on mate poaching rather interesting. I know a number of girls in college who employed this stategy to go from relationship to relationship, so they were never single. While in a relationship they would pick up orbitors. Once the relationship headed downhill or the found themselves bored – whichever came first – they would pick an orbitor and he would become their next boyfriend. Wash, rinse, and repeat.
It only proves what I have seen with my own eyes. Girls in relationships have an advantage over single girls due to pre-selection. So indeed, pre-selection works on guys too!
That said, as a restricted woman mate poaching doesn’t appeal to me. I am not looking to trade up, so being “poached” is a nonstarter. Nor would be inclined to poach a man who is in a relationship. I fully believe the saying “how you got him is how you lose him”! As such, the other woman is setting herself up to be cheated on by the guy she “won” from his wife/gf.
JP: “Do you view it as a “sin of the flesh” and something to be avoided because of the “complete depravity of man” or do you view it as an unalloyed good as long as you don’t get diseases or unwanted pregnancy?”
Decently the former until the last few years. Now, not exactly the latter – I don’t see it as “unalloyed good”, but rather neutral. You can break someone’s heart with casual sex, it could be just totally neutral, or it can be an uplifting experience
I find it silly to always paint casual as always being in the bad category UNLESS you have a moral stance against it, which would make sense. It’s even more puzzling (and “puzzling” is being polite) when people claim to have a moral stance against it, but then do it anyway.
You raise some good questions and have good explanation of total depravity. Sure, that’s human nature. I agree with it, except all the supernatural God part.
@ Susan
It’s interesting that men report both doing more mate poaching and letting themselves get poached. It’s like the numbers about N – it should be a zero sum game… I’d say some of the female responders rationalize away their poaching/being poached and respond “no” to the question.
@ Iggles
There’s certainly a correlation, but you’ve got the causation backwards. She has orbiters because she’s attractive and extraverted, which makes her good at picking up beta-orbiters. Because she has so many orbiters, she also manages to easily obtain relationships and always be in a relationship.
Granted though, to a certain effect guys might have noticed her “boyfriend carousel” and they might want to get their turn. But I wouldn’t call that “pre-selection”. Just availability.
Well, we learned that when it comes to N, men lie more than women do, so it’s hard to say whether men are exaggerating up or women are exaggerating down, or both.
This implies that women want to enter relationships with their beta orbiters.
@ INTJ:
That’s a big assumption. That’s like saying if a woman has high N then she’s attractive. Not so! I’ve seen unattractive and average looking girls rack up that number through being sexually available and not discerning (i.e., by being slutty). Likewise, average and unattractivd girls rack up orbiter by intent.
These girls tend to have a lot of guy friends. Even when in a relationship they fuel the fire by being flirty/showing interest in these guys and using them for validation. Also, being in a number of date-like situations with them “as friends”. How attractive a girl is, is not as important as her attention. That is like catnip and keeps those orbitors sniffing around.
A “hot” girl more easily obtains orbitors because she has to give exponetially LESS attention to keep a guy holding on to hope. If she’s a HB10 she could smile at him occassionally and the guy will orbit. But a woman can easily shut orbitors down by not providing encouragement. A woman who doesn’t entertain opposite sex friends while in a relationship can shut down orbitors. A guy may try, but without her feeding him attention he has a one sided crush – to be a true orbitor they have to be friends.
This may be true in some situations, where they are all part of the same social circle. But I have seen girls pick up or orbitors from work and school who are unaware of the girl’s history..
@Susan
I agree that women value other things beyond looks and that they message some of the below normal guys too. I just find it funny that 80% are ranked as below normal.
I am also not a fan of cherry picking and encourage fair argumentation as opposed to just advocating one’s side and not looking at all the evidence in as fair a manner possible.
The ultimate slut-tell map. Zoom out for a global view of the wife market.
http://www.slutsacrossamerica.org/
.
She said she thinks 75% of men are ugly, 12.5% average and 12.5% good looking! lol
Let me suggest that a dictionary would make a fine Xmas present for this girl; she could look up the meaning of the word “average.”
In fact, it looks like attached men were more interested in attached women than single men were interested in single women!
LOL. If I had gotent the amount of attention from single men when I was single as I get from married men as a married woman, I’d have considered myself popular.
I do believe that preselection works on men–to the extent that I feel confident that having been the wife of one sucessful man would be seen as a qualification to another if DH died.
J: “Let me suggest that a dictionary would make a fine Xmas present for this girl; she could look up the meaning of the word “average.””
Definitions don’t matter in feelings-world.
@J
Another girl I asked was even more severe. She thought 90% were ugly. But the redeeming feature is that most women don’t care as much about looks as most men do.
As a successful older male, I see and deal with these types of women all the time. While I enjoy their company, marrying them isn’t in the cards – for a simple reason, marriage in the US is too risky a proposition, not to mention the huge tax hit I would take. Being single I have two houses in the US and another out of the US – all of which I either write off, or otherwise work the tax-laws to my benefit – if I were to marry someone, I would be getting raked over the coals since the number of variables and tax hits go up, not to mention the risk of putting everything I own on the potential auction block when it fails – and the odds are that it will… No thank you…
I’ll keep having sex with young women, who don’t have the baby-rabies yet, and enjoy my life. At some point I’ll retire and shack up with a couple of sweet-young-things in another country. THAT is what the successful American men are doing – why would I want a competitive women who wouldn’t even know the ages of her own children???
Women may have “changed” but I haven’t, and I still find feminine women lovely and desirable. So I’ll enjoy US women since they are available – but that is where it ends. For marriageable women – I’ll go elsewhere…
”So am I. Isn’t your husband like 6′?
I would hope so.”
Susan’s Walsh husband is 6’3”.
”That doesn’t change that being short lowers a mans overall SMV and makes him therefore less desirable (and to many undesirable). ”
Yes. As it should be. The average height for Swedish man is 6 feet tall. Last time I was there I spent a lot of time with my younger cousins. They brought along their friends. Each one of them was at least 6’4”. Same thing I’ve observed in Germany. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the average Scandinavian height to go from 6 feet to 6’4” and more.
The higher the quality of the Country, the richer the Country is, the more developed it is, the taller the men are(as the women also are).
Not only are they taller, they’re well-built and are handsome. Part of me suspects that the greater wealth when compared to the rest of the European males allows the majority of the Swedish/German/Norwegian etc men to attract the most attractive of women. When they mate, the woman’s beauty is inherited by her son or daughter. Which ends up with so many, so many Scandinavians being so tall, handsome, naturally muscular and with great smiles(perfect genes all-around).
So you get:
A) Height genes inherited from dad.
B) Beauty genes inherited from mom.
What happens? A whole wide Country(European region) of natural Brad Pitts. Natural selection. Women can now afford being independent from men and they’re selecting the best specimens to mate with(as it should be). The balding/bald, the fat/obese, the men with ugly teeth(ok, those who didn’t have money to fix their teeth are on display), and the short are being blown away from the gene pool.
The shortest men in Europe are the Spaniards, at 5’8”. Don’t you think a guy with less than that is going to be perceived as well, short in quality?
I have never even seen a 4’11” woman dating a man who wasn’t 6 feet tall at least. Do you go for obese women? Are most short men interested in obese women? Why would a woman be interested in the male equivalent of the women who have 0 value in the market place?
(If I made error on comment form, that prints only error message and does not print that comment form. Returning to previous page only gave empty comment form, so that text was lost. ☻)
Mule Chewing Briars:
Under comment box there should be text that some HTML is allowed. Now it is unclear what tag system is used.
I know that this accepts some HTML, but that is not obvious.
(Made again error on E-mail field on previous post. Sorry. )
Where was this wisdom for me 15 years ago when I was 25. I’m now 40, newly single, and figuring out that I am a carreer woman who has all my professional goals… and I’m alone. I am researching this new ‘antifeminish’ type movement and I realize I am a woman who wants a man in my life to allow me to step out of this role, step back, and help him shine. But now am I destined to only attract gold diggers who want my 401K? or is there hope for those of us who figure this out late in life?
@LB
Figuring it out and being honest with yourself is half the battle. Get out there and immediately filter out any man whose motives are suspect. Don’t waste precious time in dead end relationships. There are lots of good men out there, and I’ve known quite a few women who fell in love at 40. But you need to focus on it and make the effort to meet lots of new people. Whether through online dating, friends, work, etc.
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