Louise Brooks
“The Technique of the Love Affair makes, I am bitterly afraid, considerable sense. If only it had been placed in my hands years ago, maybe I could have been successful instead of just successive.”
Dorothy Parker
In 1928 Doris Langley Moore wrote The Technique of the Love Affair at the age of 23. Langley Moore was a Byron scholar, a costume designer, a novelist, a friend of George Bernard Shaw’s and a a newlywed when she penned the tongue-in-cheek guide to making men fall in love with you. Modeled after Plato’s Symposium, it was an immediate sensation and scandal in England.
Long out of print, the book was rereleased ten years ago, and received a positive reception from critics. Reviewing it for the New York Times, Liesl Schillinger wrote:
If enough women read it, there may yet be time for the Irresistible Woman to avoid going the way of the dodo.
The book…is a virtual cocktail shaker on paper, written by a young woman who styles herself ”A Gentlewoman,” and it could very possibly undo the years of damage that earnest flocks of pastel volumes have worked on formerly swashbuckling female psyches.
Reading about the SMP of the 1920s, I was immediately struck by the similarities to our own era. From the book’s jacket:
Its readers were the so-called New Women who emerged during World War I. The subject of cartoons in The New Yorker and Punch, the typical modern woman lived in a bachelor flat in the city; she earned her own living and believed in “sexual freedom” (although she might not have known exactly what that meant). She smoked cigarettes, drank cocktails, and swore in public. She even looked different: Slim and uncorseted, she wore her skirts short and her hair bobbed. To all appearances, she was physically, legally, and emotionally emancipated. The generation gap between the woman of the 1920s and her Victorian mother was all but unbridgeable, and a girl could no longer look to her elders for advice.
Langley Moore understood the sexual economy of the time – a male shortage after WWI resulted in a sex ratio that increased female intrasexual competition. Her book was meant to give women an edge over their less prepared flapper sisters. Technique offers specific guidelines for the newfangled practice called “dating.”
In one generation the Byzantine rituals of Victorian courtship had undergone a revolution: single women no longer extended invitations to suitors to “call” or held “at homes.” Now even respectable women went unchaperoned to nightclubs, restaurants, and movies. The modern date was born, and the once neutral telephone became an instrument of both despair and bliss.
…It was a time when men and women had dalliances or affairs, not relationships…This was an age in which it was important not to be earnest; flippancy and cynicism were sane responses to an insane war.
Schilllinger:
Where the Rules girl seeks a clothesline of her own, the Technique woman wants frolic, Champagne, banter and devotion, although she knows that ”it is generally only in the course of a light affair that the serious one springs up.”
Sounds like hookup culture, no?
Still, she is a sensualist who courts experience to perfect her craft, as well as a realist who knows that ”it is useless to tell men we are independent, and then beg them to come and dance with us,” so one might as well admit the need to scheme all along.
This is the refreshingly honest dissimilarity – the acknowledgement of sex differences allows the open sharing of the secrets to tripping a man’s switches, which can not really have changed much in just 80 years. Keep in mind that this guide is about sexual attraction, not finding a husband. It assumes that men are in a position of strategic advantage – no assumption of apex fallacy here.
Here is a summary of Langley Moore’s strategy – all written by her or paraphrased.
Ten General Principles
1. We dare not give reign to our generosity, because men soon tire of what is soon obtained.
2. A woman has not made a conquest until she finds herself pursued. Her conquest and the pursuit are synonymous; there cannot be one without the other.
3. Your surest weapon and most powerful spell lie in his own hunger for possession of you. Until you fulfill your ambition, you must always remain unattainable.
4. A man does not often want what nobody else would have. He covets what others have already found desirable. The more proof he has that you are sought after, the more convinced he will be that you are worth seeking.
5. You must not let his love stagnate the moment he has obtained you, but subtly rouse him to fresh pursuit whenever he shows apathy.
6. The most certain way of losing prestige is to let a man see that he occupies a more important place in your mind than you in his, but a woman who is infatuated will find it difficult to conceal her feelings.
7. The knowledge that there is a soul desperate with devotion before them can only excite pity or amusement, not love. In her abjectness and anxiety she ceases even to be congenial company. Her unhappiness is tedious, and he begins to chafe under his responsibility.
8. Never remonstrate with a man whose desire is flagging. Cease to see him, cease to communicate with him, let him hear rumours of others’ interest in you. If he has any lingering residue of possessive passion for you, these measures will bring him back to your side, and if not, you are acquitted without indignity.
9. It is not just physical desire that he seeks. He also wants intimacy. When he cherishes and protects you, enjoy it. Draw him into slight intimacies that seem charming, he will want more.
10. Do not give a man an idea which may prove disadvantageous to you. E.g., that he finds a certain other woman more fascinating that yourself, that he will cheat on you, etc. If you show that you expect infidelity, you will get it.
The Fundamental Principle of Femininity
1. Contrast is the keynote. Be different from the man in female ways.
2. Avoid being nasty about other females or blabbing their secrets.
3. If a man is able, he enjoys the burden of providing for you, and enjoys the feeling that you are dependent, his dependent. Be dependent materially and independent spiritually.
4. To sustain admiration for an indefinite period, display good nature, a sense of honor and a capacity for friendship. But never show yourself to be completely unselfish in your devotion to him.
5. Refinement of taste is an important virtue. Avoid indelicate conversation and coarse language.
Men to Avoid
1. Men whose prestige is much greater than your own. You need to feel at ease, even a little superior, to enjoy yourself.
2. Men with whom you would always have to make the first move.
3. Men who must conceal you
4. Men who are dissolute
Tactics
1. Be interesting
- Have poise of manner (free from self-consciousness or arrogance)
- Don’t laugh with abandon, becoming ungainly
- Don’t become vehement in discussion
- Be lively without being obstreperous.
- Be spirited but never carried away.
2. Display accomplishments and allurements without calling attention to them.
- Be cheerful, free from hint of grief or dejection. Misery long sustained begets pity without sexual love.
3. Dress well.
- The less women’s clothing resembles their own, the more men like it.
“Whether is was the first cause or not, from the earliest times one impt. Function of clothing was to promote erotic activity: to attract men and women to one another, thus ensuring the survival of the species. One basic purpose of costume, therefore, is to distinguish men from women.
Alison Lurie, The Language of Clothes, 1981
- Dress like the women around you, only more sumptuously. Originality and distinction makes men uncomfortable.
- If a woman is not groomed to perfection from head to foot, she will lack the necessary self-confidence.
4. Display a talent for flattery.
- Seem attentive to his conversation; conceal signs of boredom, but don’t look too eagerly engrossed.
- Draw a man out to speak about himself, but never attempt to probe him for secrets. This will make him think of you as more of a friend.
- Don’t tell him secrets of yours until you are sure he likes you.
5. Be more generous with words than actions.
- Actions should seem more indifferent than infatuated. If you are always flattering a man, he will see that you want him badly, and stop pursuing.
- If you are always cold and casual, he will think you don’t want him at all, and a passion cannot flourish when rebuffed at every turn.
- Many women [are] rude in their speech but complacent in every act. Better to spare no kindness that the tongue can utter.
- Express gladness to see him, but show no desire for his company in any of your actions, i.e. pursuit.
- When he is with you, let him feel strong, courageous, generous.
- If you signal to him that you expect to be treated poorly, he will comply. Men will give you whatever you seem to ask of them, so ask much.
Methods of Approach
1. Don’t approach a man who is engrossed in another woman.
2. Any appearance of haste is unseemly and may defeat the purpose.
3. Don’t single a man out for special glances or flattery, unless you know you will have no opportunity later. Be encouraging at the second or third meeting, giving a hint of sexual interest.
4. Being good at flirting lets him know that you are used to the attentions of men.
5. Do not respond as much as he would like; make a little show of surrender. Always give a little less of yourself than is wanted, a little less than satisfies.
6. If he is indifferent, give it up immediately. An unattached man who is indifferent to your flattery is indifferent to you.
7. In a group of men, be delightful and personal with each of them. Don’t single any one man out for particular attention unless you can do it without being observed. Be so kind to the women that your attention to the men does not stand out. If there is a woman likely to resent you, be extremely amiable to her, and distinguish her by all the courtesy you can show.
Errors Common to Love Affairs
1. Allowing yourself to be won without adequate preparation, or taken unaware. The occasion of your surrender should be prearranged and have the ideal background. Do not let him think his victory an easy one. What he wins, or thinks he wins, easily, he will not esteem.
2. Attempting to arouse a fatigued or worried man to demonstrations of emotion. By taking the role of supplicant you make him feel that the right order of things has been upset, and give him a mortifying memory of yourself. Before a man has declared himself, make no concessions of any importance, but once he has done so, it is very unwise to demand repetitions and confirmations, for it will indicate over-anxiety.
“It is proverbial that after a woman tells a man she loves him, he assumes she’ll continue to do so until she says otherwise. In contrast, women seem to require periodic updates on a man’s emotional temperature. Fear and anxiety, and the behavior they engender, are lethal to love and well-being.”
3. Calling attention to one’s own defects. Conceal flaws if possible and do not apologize for them. In a love affair, you should display your assurance and conceal your humility.
Langley Moore’s only nod to marriage:
“Even those who would reform or abolish matrimony are prone to forsake their principles when they are seized with a passion for one who cannot be otherwise obtained.”
There is much wisdom here, and little I would disagree with. I have used many of these suggestions to great effect myself. Unfortunately, feminine and masculine roles have largely been lost since DLM wrote her book. Women are not practiced at communicating interest and attraction, and men are not practiced at reading those cues. Much of what DLM recommends will be most effective with men displaying a high degree of self-confidence. Then again, self-confidence is a strong female attractor, and she provides an excellent roadmap for engaging those men. It is interesting to note that Langley Moore speaks of the benefits of preselection, playful teasing, and a bit of push pull as important tools.
Finally, as noted above, Langley Moore has written a how-to for passionate love affairs. I see no reason why one’s approach to relationships should not be the same, as exciting a man’s sexual interest is crucial for both. The key is to follow her 1920′s guidelines for when to have sex, not contemporary ones.
{ 652 comments… read them below or add one }
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My take on the 5 Fundamental Principles of Femininity:
1. Agree, be feminine.
2. Agree, though an occasional rip on some deserving girl is enjoyable.
3. I think the bigger point is that men need to feel needed in some way and in today’s society they just aren’t needed as much as providers and protectors. In today’s age, if you are going to be a SAHM then really let him know you appreciate him “busting his ass” to support the family. (He should also appreciate what you do to take care of the kids and home.) So, find other ways in which you really need him and let him know you need him and appreciate him. Also, if he does provide or protect then appreciate that too.
4. Agree that a woman should display good nature, honor and friendship but not be a doormat.
5. Refinement of taste can be good as long as that taste is not too fine and expensive and demanding, unless you’re paying for it.
Too much coarse language and indelicate conversation is bad but an occasional swear word out of a delicate mouth is very endearing and hilarious.
This definitely depends on the man.
I’ve been in situations where a few guys have competed, in obvious and subtle ways, to win my affections. Some men like that sort of situation.
Right, but it doesn’t gain her points, either. It’s value-neutral.
@Susan
Agree on the Men to Avoid
Now, my take on Tactics:
I generally agree with 1-4 but disagree on 5. I think you should be generous with words and actions–but not too much until he has shown himself worthy (meaning, do something(s) nice but if he never does anything don’t stay with a taker). But maybe to just have a fling with a higher SMV male you shouldn’t be generous with actions.
My take on Methods of Approach:
1-2) Agree
3) Disagree…do give glances and sincere compliments to get him to approach or ask you out.
4-6) Agree
7) This is good to get to know him but at some point you may need to give him some extra attention so he will approach you or realize you have some level of interest.
@ Lokland
Okay yeah Shae is probably better looking than Catelyn, but can’t compete with the wildling girl. Rob Stark’s nurse was rather good looking too, but somewhat child-like (kinda like Shoshanna in Girls). Flaming red chick didn’t seem particularly good looking.
I’m probably very biased towards Catelyn because of her character and personality.
This definitely depends on the man.
I’ve been in situations where a few guys have competed, in obvious and subtle ways, to win my affections. ***Some men like that sort of situation.***
Again, not many. Sassy, I might be misremembering but wasn’t it one of your ex-boyfriends or a guy you were dating who got quite upset when he learned he was choice #2 to get your phone number versus his buddy, and this was months after you had already been dating and had an established relationship? Would you say he handled the notion of competing with equanimity?
“Where they are deficient is in the behaviors to inspire commitment and emotional devotion.”
To varying degrees, by virtue of being a woman, she has that ability. That gloss gets dulled as she goes from penis to penis while taking in the fumes of feminism and sucking down spoon after spoon of that unrealistic expectations elixir.
Now watching the movie, “Your Highness”. Natlie Portman and Zooey Deschanel. Talk about eye candy.
And constantly telling each other how beautiful they look.
On competition: no go. The fastest way to sour my opinion of you as a mate prospect is to play this card in any way.
This is partly why I have always only dated one girl at a time. (No spinning plates). I expect her undivided attention if we are dating, and that means no current “competition” allowed. I make this clear on date 2 or 3, because if we’ve made it that far I’m already starting to qualify you as keeper material. If exclusive dating (not necessarily an official LTR) isn’t an option she is willing to offer, then date 2 or 3 will be the last.
I didn’t date much, but of those dates four women agreed and became LTR mates/wives. I probably dated 10 – 12 women in total, so statistically not too shabby.
@Susan
So I guess for the most part my disagreement was with the Ten General Principles.
As far as being irresistible, being as physically beautiful as you reasonably can be, being in touch with and radiating sensuality, being charmingly feminine and positive, engaging in playful and or interesting conversation that stimulates his mind, finding his humor funny, and showing a certain amount of non-needy interest in a man but not needing him at the initial stages will do the trick. (This will do the trick for either short-term irresistibility or opening the door for long-term irresistibility.)
Once he starts to show interest then you can gradually emotionally escalate (25 steps) and you will be even more irrestible (in a long-term kind of way).
@ Mike C
You remembered correctly. It was my ex of one year, and he didn’t take it well. I was not referring to him when I made my previous statement.
A few of the men I dated in the past knew that I was seeing other people, meaning going on dates with others. I found that once they knew that they were not the only people I was seeing, they tried even harder to catch me.
I definitely believe that a minority of men operate this way though.
Obviously not, because he was #2. I bet he would have felt differently were he #1.
So now we have two sets of rules in which people are supposed to artificially inflate their own value… it goes around and around until some people get sick of the spinning circles and choose to drop out. When you put in double the effort for a prize that wasn’t exactly what you thought it was then what?
Apparently expressing any honesty re feelings displays that you are low value with no options, so where does not playing games or honesty fit into this anywhere ever!?
/rant
Susan, I would be careful in quoting that statistic too often. it may very well NOT illustrate what you think it does.
Understanding sex and marriage in early and Colonial America can be difficult because of how disperse many things were.
For instance, there are many stories of “married couples” walking down the street, running into a minister who asks them if they are married (that is, really, really married in the eyes of the Church) to which they say, “No” and he marries them right then and there.
Because of things like this, which would have been extreme in the days of the pilgrims (which so many things were), it is difficult to extrapolate from early “stats”.
@Mike C
Agree.
Now, a woman should try to get in shape and look as good as she can (with reasonable effort) plus add the feminine and other good personality traits to move from some guy’s casual ladder (if he is into casual) to the marriage ladder.
It’s not as simple as that. A girl can do all of what you just stated, but still lack that spark, that je ne sais quoi that generates that frisson of chemistry.
Previously that sort of thing could be chalked up to mere compatibility, but I suspect it’s more complicated than that.
Ugh, italics fail.
@SayWhaat
“That’s probably a good thing, since most women don’t want a guy who is *too* good with women. ”
Yeah, they have it so hard…In fact, they’re so good that they must all be fighting over the slim minority of women that doesn’t fall in your “most” category
Now, back to reality. A quality guy will be good with women by default, because he has what they want. He won’t chase or play reindeer games either, which doesn’t make him *too* good with women.
@Sassy
“I’ve been in situations where a few guys have competed, in obvious and subtle ways, to win my affections. Some men like that sort of situation.”
True. Some men chase women, in the same way some men run races for medals. You already know to watch out for the ones for whom the medal is only an object, and the race is just for sport.
I’m also reminded about a situation I was in about 3 years ago.
I used to work with a guy. Let’s call him *Sam*. I considered Sam and I friends, and I wasn’t interested in him romantically. I wasn’t sexually attracted to him, and he also had a girlfriend at the time. I thought that he wouldn’t press for more than friendship.
One day, he introduced me to his roommate. Let’s call his roommate *Tom*. I was instantly attracted to Tom, and focused my attention on him. We all hung out that night, and eventually went our separate ways. Tom ended up getting my contact info, and we met up with each other again a few days later. He and I got to know each other over a few drinks, and eventually decided it would be fun to invite Sam and his girlfriend to join us.
Sam showed up with his girlfriend, saw me with Tom, and was visibly upset. He hid it well, for the most part, but I could tell that he was upset. Eventually he pulled me aside and asked me why I was out with Tom. I told him that he seemed like a great guy, and I wanted to get to know him better. He blew that statement off, and pretended to be okay with everything.
Later on in the night, after he had a few drinks, Sam’s demeanor changed. He became super competitive with Tom. I watched with embarrassment as he challenged Tom repeatedly at darts. At one point, Sam’s girlfriend went to the bathroom, and Sam grabbed me around the waist and tried to pull me onto his lap. I protested, and Tom intervened. They exchanged a few harsh words, and Sam left soon after with his girlfriend.
Tom and I did date for awhile, but things eventually ended. After things ended between Tom and I, Sam asked me whether or not I would be interested in having a threesome with he and his girlfriend. I naturally declined the offer, and made myself scare around Sam after that.
That’s just one example that I have personally experienced.
@ Sassy 172
That sounds less like friendly competition and more like compensating for insecurities… that sort of competition shouldn’t really strike anyone that isn’t damaged as fun or something to look forward too during any type of courtship….
If this is normal and I’m wrong let me know so I can dip out.
“Yeah, they have it so hard…In fact, they’re so good that they must all be fighting over the slim minority of women that doesn’t fall in your “most” category.”
Maybe that’s your scene, bro, but I’ve known plenty of girls who have DQ’d a guy for just that.
Tom and I did date for awhile, but things eventually ended. After things ended between Tom and I, Sam asked me whether or not I would be interested in having a threesome with he and his girlfriend.
Was Sam’s girlfriend aware that he had propositioned you?
I’m probably stating the obvious, but I’d bet Sam was sexually attracted to you from the get go.
Personal opinion.
A lot of things on this list are very good and will spark chemistry if done correctly. They will also put it out instantly if overdone. Too much will verge of dark style game, too little will end a woman in the boring, sex is gonna suck zone.
A balance of coyness and virtue is far superior to pure coyness or pure virtue.
I like for the competition to exist yet I also like to realize I’m the favourite. (note: competition does not equal spinning plates)
I’m quite happy my wife has a coy smile, touch of feistiness etc. Keeps me interested and I enjoy the mock chase in which I already know I’m going to win.
At the same time, spinning plates/ rumours about other guys or faking interest in others would never fly.
I broke up with my 3rd girlfriend because in the span of a few days I found out she was
a) not most interested in me on first site, though after opening my mouth a few times that changed
b) she called one of my friends hot (NEVER cool)
Admittedly this made me want to earn her sexual affection more.
It made me devalue her commitment completely.
One has to maintain the balance of both.
@INTJ
Maybe you need to find a redheaded wildling girl! lol
I have no idea how anyone could think Catelyn Stark (the mother) is the best looking?
Khalisee is entitled but not as bad as her brother. She does have a certain compassion for the regular people like when she (unwisely) made the raping horsemen stop, which led to her husband’s death.
I read a different take on why and who Winterfell was burned.
http://www.quora.com/Game-of-Thrones-TV-series/Why-was-Winterfell-burned-in-the-second-season-finale
The Boltons did it, according to this, so that they could weaken the Starks and maybe take control of the north.
I was pissed at Catelyn. She never should have captured Tyrion and never released Jamie. Pure fuck-ups and that contributed to Ned’s death. Ned was an idiot too though I really liked him and was pissed he was killed. He selfishly put his honor above the good of the kingdom and by not allying with Renly Barratheon to take over the kingdom, the broader war was unleashed. Sometimes a little dark triad Machiavellianism is needed to fight even darker types.
I’m quite happy my wife has a coy smile, touch of feistiness etc. Keeps me interested and I enjoy the mock chase in which I already know I’m going to win.
Lokland, I agree with you here. I’m going to add something on the touch of feistiness because I get the distinct sense some women are inclined to overdo it. Feistiness is like spice or salt in a meal. Just the right amount, a pinch here, and a pinch there really improves the taste of the meal. However, too much and the meal is ruined and you just want to throw it in the trash.
@ Mike C
I think he was sexually attracted to me from the start, but I didn’t think he would attempt to act on it while he was in a relationship.
I’m not sure whether or not the girlfriend knew about the proposition. My guess is that she didn’t, considering that he often tried to make passes at me when she wasn’t nearby. When she was in his presence, he appeared to focus his attentions on her.
Game of Thrones! Game of Thrones!
I, too, was all *facepalm* at Catelynn. But imagine how desperate she is to get Sansa and Arya back. Her husband has been set-up and decapitated, attempted murder on her son left him crippled, their ward Theon has turned on them and she never liked Jon Snow to begin with (aww!
Quit being mean to him! ) They had to give Robb to one of scary Walder Frey’s daughters to cross the bridge…
I mean, there has been so much hardship and difficulty. She probably just wants to get back the children she has left.
I love the incongruous pairings:
Arya & Tywin (I would watch a spinoff with just them!), Jaime & Brienne of Tarth, Arya & Jaqen H’hagar.
If there are any girls GoT fans: Who do you think is the cutest: Robb Stark or Jon Snow?
Question: Do the guys here think Danaerys is pretty? Also I don’t see why people are hating on her.
I have a “In Defense of the Khaleesi” — much like my passionate defense of and unquenchable admiration for Colonel Brandon. (Plus, I like just saying, WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS? from time to time.)
PS to Han Solo:
Sam + Gilly 4-evah!
I *love* that guy– especially when they were trekking through the icy wilderness and he was all, I wonder if Gilly would like it here. (And all the other Crows were rolling their eyes and like, PLEASE shut up!)
My hope is that he rescues Gilly (and all the other daughter/wives) and she has kept the thimble the whole time, feeds Abusey McCreeperson to the White Walkers, burns down that horrible place and they all escape and live happily ever after.
“If there are any girls GoT fans: Who do you think is the cutest: Robb Stark or Jon Snow?”
Not yet a GoT fan, but about to be! Internet is being slow and the Season One disc that’s been sitting here for months is starting to look tempting…
Robb Stark all the way!
@SayWhaat
Yay! I am almost done with Season 2. Let me know what you think!
Last GoT post
Game of Thrones re-cut as romantic comedy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-w98pNAi9A
(Look away, SW, look away! Here be spoilers.
)
@Sassy
I would have thought you’d like Jon Snow– he’s like the most emo dude in Westeros.
===
Other incongruous pairings:
Tyrion & Bronn (we need to find him a GF)
Sansa & The Hound (platonic on her side, obvs)
===
DEATH TO JOFFREY
(Sorry to be negative, but I really hate him!)
@ HanSolo
Haha yup. I almost jumped outta my seat when Jon Snow pulled back her hood.
I did just realize that there’s a strong correlation between whether i’ve seen the character naked and whether I think she’s good looking. The whole modesty thing does seem to work on me.
She isn’t pure evil like her brother. I still hate her though.
Oh that was the conclusion I came to when I saw the episode. At first I was confused, since it seemed like the greyjoy soldiers were about to capitulate, so it was unlikely they would burn the city down, and even if they did burn it down, it was odd that there weren’t any friendly soldiers in the city afterwards. Then I realize that it was the friendly soldiers that burnt it down. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why, so I googled, and found out what that link says, which was that it was a power grab.
I can understand Catelyn’s actions given that she was just trying to protect her children, and mothers tend to be irrational when protecting their children. But yeah, Ned was way too honorable. That’s why I love Tyrion.
the whole Wall at the North seems to be very reminiscent of the Israel-Palestine conflict
Not Hadrian’s wall?
@ Jackie
Haha yeah Sam is adorable. It would be nice if Gilly and Sam ended up together. I doubt it’ll happen in the highly cynical world of GoT though.
@ Jackie
See that was the thing. I considered it a good deed to marry one of Frey’s daughters and rescue her from that awful place. Instead Robb Stark decided to go romance that nurse… Grrr.
She ain’t bad looking. I don’t know to what extent it’s the immature character that is causing me to be biased, but she looks somewhat child-like. Rather off-putting.
As for hating on her? Of course I hate her. She has an almost sociopathic temper, she loved the barbarian Khal Drogo, and had him destroy a city so they could obtain a fleet for her. Then she stopped the rapes and expected everyone to be grateful to her? I was so happy to see that witch play her for a fool.
Daenerys is a perfect example of too much inbreeding.
lmao, looks like GoT is an instant thread-derailer!
@ Jackie
In response to 180: Jon Snow, without a doubt.
@INTJ
“Haha yeah Sam is adorable. It would be nice if Gilly and Sam ended up together. I doubt it’ll happen in the highly cynical world of GoT though.”
Hope springs eternal.
I like Danaerys the character.
(Not attracted.)
I can’t wait for her and Mormont to reign fire on the seven kingdoms.
I don’t understand. If men are wired with a competitive instinct, why would that not apply to mating? Why would every guy not want to get the highest SMV woman? In his chapter What Men Want in The Evolution of Desire, David Buss attempts to explain why men marry:
Clearly the drive to beat out other men for the most desirable women is key, to the point where men who have options will offer commitment in order to do so.
Buss continues on the status granted to men with the most attractive partners:
Additionally, occupational status, gained via competition, is a strong predictor of mate attractiveness:
So there are three strong areas of competition as men attempt to win the most desirable mates.
@Jackie
Yes, she was distraught but she just fucked everything up by her actions.
I love Sam. He’s such a good-hearted, clumsy and romantic nerd, and former coward. I hope Sam does rescue Gilly and the other daughters. That made me think of your involvement in rescuing abused pets.
Danaerys is very pretty, probably a 9 but not a 10 (and I know you hate numbers but whatever, it’s a rough world
) If I were being hard on her I would give her an 8.5 but 9 is probably more accurate.
And noooo! You cannot equate Danaerys and Colonel Brandon! Never. lol
@INTJ
“As for hating on her? Of course I hate her. She has an almost sociopathic temper, she loved the barbarian Khal Drogo, and had him destroy a city so they could obtain a fleet for her. Then she stopped the rapes and expected everyone to be grateful to her? I was so happy to see that witch play her for a fool.”
====
INTJ!
I see Danearys as making the best of her situation: Her brother said he would let the ENTIRE Dothraki horde of 40,000 rape her if it would get him the throne. How is that not evil of him?
And it looked like her life with Khal Drogo was scary and sucked at first. She could have given up, but instead she learned to speak Dothraki and made the Khal fall in love with her, instead of just seeing her as a sex toy.
She won the hearts of the Dothraki when she ate the horse heart (GROSS) and was about to have the baby. When she lost all those things– can you imagine?
She is the Mother of Dragons because “those are the only children I’ll ever have.” Her entire family is dead, and the last living Targaryen was her sociopathic brother who sold her to a scary warlord for an army.
She’s got Ser Jorah in the friend zone, plus that Ducksauce guy proposing marriage. But I think she is still missing the Khal and is searching something to make life worth living for, in seeking the Iron Throne.
It’s funny, they resent Girl Game because it gives women more control. Everyone wants control, which is natural enough. I say we’re all better off when everyone brings their best game.
@Pixie
Pixie, come on over and fangirl by me!
@Joffrey
I think that Arya should have killed Joffrey right at the start. Would have solved some problems. There really is only one word that describes him and it starts with a C.
@HanSolo
“I hope Sam does rescue Gilly and the other daughters. That made me think of your involvement in rescuing abused pets.”
Thanks, Captain S! A kind word from you means quite a bit.
===
Aww!
Re: Danaerys vs Col. Brandon
I just like people who make the best of their situation. I think the Mother of Dragons is probably crazed with grief right now. I bet our esteemed Colonel probably was beside himself, as well, after losing his first true love.
It is malleable, though. Sorry, but here’s Buss again:
One example is assortative mating 50 years ago. The 5 females and 5 males who married were genuinely attracted to each other. Average looking women did not demand hotties or feel that they were settling for men who had similar SMV. Restraining hypergamy isn’t just telling women they have to settle, they can’t have what they want. It’s a whole cultural context where people are pleased with a mate of equal value.
“Additionally, occupational status, gained via competition, is a strong predictor of mate attractiveness:”
True.
Law = high status.
Law school will take anyone and lawyers are a dime a dozen. You also marry six figures of debt.
So, the status is misplaced.
Which is really, really funny.
Note: I went to Duke because I underachieved.
GoT
I want the good guys to win (Rob Stark), I hold nothing against him for breaking a marriage vow to a women he cared nothing about.
I want Jon Snow to go all 007 and kill Mance Rayder, take over and set up his own kingdom (allied with his bro). Where they go on to end the threat of the zombie army thingy.
I think Tywin Lannister is bad ass, still think he will lose.
Tyrion is by far the most interesting character on the show. I’m just starting into the third book, I’m very curious as to what he will do now that he is no longer the hand.
(Also, huge fan of his SO. Hot accent.)
The Hound. I feel a strange amount of connection with this character though I have no clue why.
Catelyn is an idiot who got her husband killed.
Arya is an interesting character. Her connection to the faceless men is interesting. I wonder where it will lead.
Sansa, meh.
Brann/Ricon. Meh.
Tankasaurous (Diana or Diane). Not sure yet.
Cersei/Joffrey- OMG please someone end the madness. Kids a nut case little twerp.
@Han
AGREED. He must be stopped! I think even Cersei knows he is out of control.
Did you notice that Sansa contemplated pushing him from off the high wall when he made her look at her dad’s head (on a pike
).
Usually I dream of characters’ redemption. (I watched the Grinch Who Stole Xmas after seeing you guys talk about it here! I loved the heart growing three sizes and bringing back all the presents– and even carving THE ROAST BEEST!)
But, man… wow…. can’t muster even a flicker of hope for Jerkfrey’s soul.
@Marellus
You are the most romantic guy. You would be awesome material for a passionate love affair!
@Han
Re: GoT & Animals
You will like this, I hope: At the Humane Society, the vet techs who prepare the animals to go on the Adoption Floor name all the animals. There must be a George RR Martin fan in there, because they names a bunch of animals after all these GoT characters.
Example: Enormous 22lb big black kitty = Khal Drogo, tiny little thing with ‘tude was named Tyrion. The yappiest, most annoyingest Siamese was named Joffrey– ha ha!
(This Joffrey I don’t wish ill upon, obviously! Just a loving home and without the constant yowling!)
GoT
Sam,
+1 to what everyone else has said.
If he succeeds the innocent kid I was 10 years ago can be happy that it does work sometimes.
@Lokland
The Hound is interesting.
I think Brienne is basically a very loyal but dumb jock.
@Jackie
The de facto ruler is Tywin Lannister since he commands the army with Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon still possible threats to taking over the 7 kingdoms. Most people know that Joffrey is not a Baratheon anymore. It will be interesting to see if Joffrey tries to supplant Tywin and what would happen.
North of the Wall the white walkers are coming. Not sure if Mance Rayder’s group will move south or if they know how to defend themselves against the white walkers.
Longer term the dragons are lurking to the east.
@Jackie,
Is Jon Snow your favorite solely based on looks, or do you have a soft spot for the brooding emo boys?
@Jackie
That’s funny about the 22lb Khal Drogo.
Mr. Nervous Toes
OK, I think I understand – so the man has competed with other men prior to the seduction, which is what gives him the confidence to aim high? He doesn’t want to cross swords over the female once he has reached that point?
@Pixie
I just think he’s super cute! But Robb Stark is cute, too. They will simply have to duel for me.
(Actually, there are some GoT crushes that I am not proud of: Jaime is super-cute! Evil, incestuous kingslayer Jaime.
Brienne, reform him and make him good, please!)
@Han
I keep hoping they will go through a Star Wars phase soon. (There’s already been a “Star Trek” and STNG phase– the cat named Worf was super-cute! The dog named Data was awesome!)
If there is another “Han Solo” I will definitely find the deets and keep you posted.
It would have to be a pretty spectacular cat (or dog)!
@ Jackie
Oh I certainly hated his brother. Almost as much as I hate Joffrey.
That was perfectly fine. But she also went all Stockholm in the process and fell in love with the same guy who would have used her as a sex toy.
She did that because she wanted to win the iron throne. I’m not particularly sympathetic.
And this is what makes her so dangerous. Her biography is nearly identical to that of Genghis Khan. He lost everything, and came back with purpose. He also had the anger and attitude for vengeance that we’ve witnessed with Daenerys.
@HS
I suspect The Hound is going to have a major role later on in the series.
Brienne (with did I think Diane?), loyalty is actually quite endearing.
Also, there is no de facto ruler atm.
Joffrey has 0 power with each individual army holding its own scrap of land.
I expect further fracturing of the kingdoms leading to more war.
I also expect the white walkers are gonna pretty much sweep straight down to the neck (or somehow be magically held at the wall). Leading to a united front of armies (or not).
At this point Mance Rayder’s army will pursue (with the help of the elves- Children of the Forest, from Old Naans story (book 1)). Its the only way they could still be alive up there.
@Cooper
You are equating “hard to get,” Dark Game and refraining from supplication. These are not the same things.
@Jackie
Jaime is evil and arrogant, but I think he did a good thing by slaying the king.
@Jackie
It better be a dog for Han Solo because you well know that cats are pure eeeeeeeeeeeevil!
lol
@BroHamlet
Spinning plates isn’t mind games. It’s having sex with multiple people concurrently. In no way does Langley Moore propose that.
@ Lokland, HanSolo
No, he did that himself by not backing Renly’s bid for the throne.
Haha love the nickname. She’s a relatively flat character. It’s interesting just how silly knights and their chivalry, honor, loyalty, etc. seem when it’s done by a woman.
Right, but she makes it really, really hard to stay with her. She’s super high maintenance, demanding, making constant drama. And the high SMV guys eat it up. I’ve seen it firsthand. Why? Because they haven’t “tamed” her. And her psycho-ness generally means highly unrestricted sex. They live for the challenge of the psycho girl.
@INTJ
Your probably right.
In the books however, he actually did try and back Stannis for the throne.
Something happened because Stannis was out at Dragonstone.
@Lokland
Within the 7 Kingdoms, I would say Tiwin+Joffrey’s army is the strongest right now while Stannis is back in his castle after his defeat and Robb Stark now has disension within his kingdom.
I think, with the guy, it’s kind of like slaying dragons in order to win your lady fair.
Who wants to fight dragons and the lady fair too?
Shrek?
How many women are dreaming of a strapping young ogre as their knight?
@ Jackie
I don’t want him to get reformed. I want his head on a spike. The callous manner in which he tried to kill Bran causes me to have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
@HS
Yeah but that had to retreat to hold Kings Landing.
With Rob having to move North again it leaves a massive bit of land open for the taking.
Which is right in between Casterly Rock and River Run (and presumably The Vale allied).
Its up for grabs and whoever comes out on top will be the one holding the most power.
How would you reconcile the following from this post:
“4. To sustain admiration for an indefinite period, display good nature, a sense of honor and a capacity for friendship. But never show yourself to be completely unselfish in your devotion to him.”
And…
the following point from the post titled “25 Politically Incorrect But Effective Ways to Make Him Your Boyfriend”
“5. Have eyes for no one but him.
Actively discourage attention from other men. Avoid eye contact with other men. Ignore other men who stare at you or seek to engage you in conversation. Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.”
thanks,
@INTJ, Capt Solo
I have just started reading the books, so by only seeing the series I have missed substantial backstory. I will catch up on the reading and maybe change my opinions of the characters.
You have definitely given me a lot to think about. Hopefully we can be united in appreciating Tyrion’s quick wit and general awesomeness in the meanwhile?
I believe women want to be SAHMs to be with their kids, not to read Russian novels and eat bonbons all day. It is a luxury, because it cuts household income in half. But it is also very hard work, presumably done with a level of attention and care no outsider can give.
What I’m hearing from some of the men is that a woman’s desire to be a SAHM is selfish, or presumptuous, in that they expect a male to provide. My answer to that is that no male is forced to agree to such an arrangement. In cases where I have seen it work, parents have decided together that the benefits outweigh the costs. That calculation will be different for different families.
In short, men should not do it if they view it as a sacrifice. They should only agree to finance this if they feel it is in the best interest of their children, and that the benefits trump the costs. It’s a net positive to every member of the family. My husband feels strongly about this – I sometimes apologize for having looked like a rainmaker in the early days, only to become a SAHM. He won’t hear it – and FWIW he would never, ever have wanted to be at home full time. In fact, he’s 58 and says he wants to work until he’s at least 70, maybe 75.
@INTJ
“(Actually, there are some GoT crushes that I am not proud of: Jaime is super-cute! Evil, incestuous kingslayer Jaime. Brienne, reform him and make him good, please!)
I don’t want him to get reformed. I want his head on a spike. The callous manner in which he tried to kill Bran causes me to have no sympathy for him whatsoever.”
===
Dang, T-Paine, you are hard core! No mercy for anyone, then?
Right, but she makes it really, really hard to stay with her. She’s super high maintenance, demanding, making constant drama. And the high SMV guys eat it up. I’ve seen it firsthand. Why? Because they haven’t “tamed” her. And her psycho-ness generally means highly unrestricted sex. They live for the challenge of the psycho girl.
I don’t think this is quite right. Being honest, I’m speaking from personal experience here. I don’t think a high SMV guy, at least not one who is fully self-aware of his SMV stays in these situations for the “challenge”. It’s more of a choice of do I stick with the bird in hand, or go for the ones out in the bush that may or may not be obtainable.
One of the things I think you tend to overestimate is the number of guys who have both the actual value and self-awareness of their value such as a Jason or Zach to essentially know they can walk away from any sub-par relationship situation. Take Jason’s roommate. He describes him as tall, a good job, etc. probably overall a guy with decent SMV value….but I’d bet that guy contemplates if I walk away from this girl who doesn’t do shit compared to what girls do for Jason can I easily and quickly replace her?
It is less about “eating up any challenge” and more about weighing the cost/benefit of staying in the relationship with the drama and maintenance versus returning to a very uncertain market where you may or may not be empty handed. Consider the job market. If you are stuck in a crappy job, but the job market has a dearth of opportunities are you going to quit? What if the job market is full of opportunities? Most guys are acutely aware that in the SMP they essentially face an ongoing dearth of opportunities. I hate to drag Cooper into this but he serves as a good example sometimes. I know he has mentioned essentially being rejected by girls equally in looks and having to go 2-3 points below to be “considered for the job”.
Bottom line, you are mistaking and misunderstanding the primary reasons why guys stay with certain women. It isn’t about eating up/thriving on the drama, but being very uncertain and not confident about viable alternatives.
@Susan
“I believe women want to be SAHMs to be with their kids, not to read Russian novels and eat bonbons all day. It is a luxury, because it cuts household income in half. But it is also very hard work, presumably done with a level of attention and care no outsider can give.”
===
My mom was SAHM, too, and I now see that it wasn’t for her benefit but for mine. (And many of the other neighbor kids as well.)
It was really, really wonderful to always have someone to call if I got sick, or needed a ride, or just to have someone there. I never felt like I was competing with an outside agency (work, boss, clients, $$) for her attention.
I will remember it the rest of my life. And, still, I know that she had a LOT of talents that must have been frustrating to set aside in order to SAHM. I think, too, that she might have been happier if she had some more adults in her life (since we kids took up all her time).
You’ve definitely given me something to appreciate and reflect upon, Susan. Thanks
Sorry, I meant sexual interest in the way Langley Moore uses it – the passionate love affair characterized by obsessive preoccupation with the desired object and a perception that she is highly desirable over a period of time. I suppose “inspire passion” is a better phrase. It’s really limerence.
@ Jackie
I have mercy for Sansa. I think she has paid the price for her sins.
@Mike C
“I’m going to add something on the touch of feistiness because I get the distinct sense some women are inclined to overdo it. Feistiness is like spice or salt in a meal. Just the right amount, a pinch here, and a pinch there really improves the taste of the meal. However, too much and the meal is ruined and you just want to throw it in the trash.”
+1
Theres also a certain level of feistiness in each women from which they can reduce or increase comfortably.
The goal would be to reach a level of feistiness that is attractive to the highest number of men whilst remaining within the woman’s comfort zone.
Thats going to involve stepping on some guys toes however.
Men are so quick to play the Stage 5 Clinger card it’s incredible. One text asking what he’s up to can trigger it. Sure, men will happily let women clean their apartments, but do they keep them around? Apparently not.
@Mike C
Forgot this, as written.
Some of this advice sounds very dark.
A more moderate form of some items would probably increase the number of men interested in the product while retaining the limerance like effects.
@Susan
I realize the creation of limerance is important but by encourage an affair?
@ Susan
Unrestricted men who only want to be fuckbuddies are going to react like that. Restricted men don’t go nuclear about clinginess like that.
Susan, those are some interesting comments about male competition. If I could put in my own two cents…
You used “crossing swords” in a metaphorically sense (comment #211). If you are asking if men actually enjoy or relish competing like that, you have to understand that for men, the idea of “crossing swords” becomes a little more real than a metaphor. When sex is involved, men know instinctively that there’s always a potential for violence. It’s in the genes even if we don’t sharpen swords anymore.
Most men I know are not violent by nature and tend to avoid confrontation when it’s not beneficial to them. And when they compete they don’t necessarily like it, even if they are good at it. For many, competition, even for females, is like driving a fast car. It starts out as a rush. But after years of putting up with rush hour traffic and breakdowns, not so much.
@ Sassy:
Haha. I’ll second that
Full disclosure: The actor who plays Jon is beautiful, but the character annoyed me in thd books. Can’t get past that, lol.
INTJ – You hate the Khaleesi?! Those are fighting words
@HanSolo
Thanks very much for responding to my question about the principles. Let’s take them one by one.
Agreed, but that is not what Langley says. She says “do not give reign to your generosity.” IOW, do not let it rule you. Do not give that which is in fact not appreciated. Do not give so much that your giving becomes devalued by virtue of its constant delivery. Do not give, give, give, because in doing so you allow no opportunity to receive. And of course, those who give constantly without reciprocation are martyrs, and are quickly taken for granted.
Nowhere does Langley Moore rule this out. She simply states that if a man has never pursued you, you have not won him. I believe this is true. Men value the win, and they cannot experience that if they make no effort. None of us can appreciate what is won without effort.
Agreed, and I believe this is what she is saying. Robbing any budding interest of anticipation kills passion. Anticipation is one of the best reasons for the slow dance to sex. Sex is always, always better when two people have spent time craving it.
How often do many men say an ugly woman is hot? My sense is that there is generally solid consensus around who is hot. Sure, men may have their own types, but society deems certain women great beauties. There are women who turn many heads, and other women who turn the occasional head. It seems reasonable that most men would prefer a woman who turns many heads over a woman who turns few heads, based on what I quoted from Buss above. Of course, if his head is one of the few, he is in the fortunate position of being a buyer of something with low demand.
We agree. Keep in mind that a woman’s job is to rouse a man to passion, which is enjoyable for the man. The last thing he wants is to suddenly find that the woman he thought was incredibly sexy is now meh. If his interest wanes, and she can rekindle it, that’s a win win.
Agreed. This is the Principle of Least Interest in action. It’s a short-term gambit, and has no place in a love relationship.
Look at Langley’s descriptors again: desperate, abject, anxiety, unhappy, uncongenial. Is this really the kind of devotion you want from a woman?
In summary, I think we’re pretty close on most of this.
Susan, those are some interesting comments about male competition. If I could put in my own two cents…
Regarding competition, there is a big difference between competing on the basketball court, or Madden football, or in the gym on bench press, and competing over a woman. With the latter, competition triggers jealousy which is very unpleasant. I think most men when they really like a girl tend to have some feelings of possessiveness whether justified or not (very often not as the guy tends to get more invested then he should). Guys who don’t mind competing essentially have mastered subduing their jealousy instinct. Usually, that also means they are not very invested. You get invested in someone you think is special not fungible….and you don’t want to compete over someone you think is special
@Susan
No they aren’t, at least not with women they like. Maybe with women that they’re not interested in. Women need to avoid the guys that aren’t into them and go for the guys that are. But then that would ruin that whole falling in love feeling for the guy that just reveals his interest at the perfect moment, not too soon and not too late.
And men do not want apartment cleaners–is that some great revelation? They want women that love them that they are attracted to, can respect, trust and love. They want women who will do thoughtful things for them and show they’re not entitled by helping out in ways that are not obligations but show she is willing to pull her fair share.
I am having difficulty squaring this with the situations I have witnessed of men chasing a woman who is already in a relationship. IIRC, this was how Athol managed to get with Jennifer, his now-wife.
Er, that should read, “then someone else’s gf, now his wife”.
@Susan
I think this is one of the biggest myths out there. It really speaks more to players & guys looking for notches rather than average guys.
I’ve noticed a lot of beta friends through the years get extremely attached to the first girl to show any significant interest in them, even if everyone else questions if they could do better.
@Mike C
Couldn’t agree more. I know that’s definitely true for me.
@INTJ
Even unrestricted men (like myself) don’t necessarily go labelling girls stage 5 clingers. But I am a romantic unrestricted man who is capable of being faithful and wants a wife and family.
I’ve noticed a lot of beta friends through the years get extremely attached to the first girl to show any significant interest in them, even if everyone else questions if they could do better.
Jimmy,
You just said much more efficiently and concisely what I was trying to get at in comment 231
@SayWhaat
I would guess that you’ve seen much more of that behavior on tv then in real life.
But insofar as it does happen IRL, it seems to be stereotypical Alpha behavior. What they don’t tell you, is that this is exactly the kind of Alpha behavior that causes men to think twice about the whole idea.
Whether it’s an unfair characterization or not, men don’t like that kind of poaching. Men viscerally dislike men who do that, or even try.
Yes, this is the ideal strategy, IMO. FWIW, I do not think the Technique is appropriate for LTRs, nor was it intended to be. I do think Langley Moore does women a service in explaining some things that men do and do not respond favorably to. It’s a set of instructions for capturing a man’s attention and interest, and getting him to single you out. It is definitely strategic – some might say manipulative. But then, so is Game.
Hmmm, maybe not artificially inflate, but just play your hand well?
@ Susan
You’re missing the point again. My original point was that preselection does not significantly help women. If you’re hot, men will find you attractive, because you’re hot. Not because other men find you attractive.
Nope! I listed a real-life anecdote and I’ve seen this play out repeatedly with one of my best friends in college. We were roommates, it was kind of hard to avoid, lol.
@Ramble
Re the Pilgrims, Sexual Misconduct at Plymouth Colony has been studied at the University of VA:
http://www.histarch.uiuc.edu/plymouth/Lauria1.html
Wrong again — it was mostly her beta orbiters.
@ Iggles
Haha. I wouldn’t say that to the Khaleesi’s face. I value my own life.
As for Robb Stark, I had a lot of respect for him, until he decided to go chasing that stupid nurse. This pic says it all: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m54p5pVZse1r8yaog.gif
@Lokland
+1
Jon Snow by a mile. He has the outsider thing going for him that makes a woman want to comfort him and sex him up, lol. Robb Stark is just a rich pretty boy.
@Susan 241
Yes, I think we are in close agreement.
I think there is still some confusion on this point though. You write:
“How often do many men say an ugly woman is hot? My sense is that there is generally solid consensus around who is hot. Sure, men may have their own types, but society deems certain women great beauties. There are women who turn many heads, and other women who turn the occasional head. It seems reasonable that most men would prefer a woman who turns many heads over a woman who turns few heads.”
A man prefers a woman that he finds attractive. He finds that woman attractive mostly because he finds her attractive, not because society deemed her a great beauty. Most men will likewise find that same woman attractive because there is fairly high correlation between what men find physically attractive, not because his own eyes didn’t find her attractive at first but then he suddenly realized that other men find her attractive.
This is very different from many women’s attraction mechanisms where one of them is what other women (and men) think of him. Think of the average-looking or ugly rock star. A certain woman (NAWALT) sees him and doesn’t even notice him because she doesn’t know it’s him. Then she finds out he’s famous and now feels attraction. Why? Because 10 or 100 million other people love his music and gave him status.
@Susan Walsh:
Well, another list, this time more refreshingly psychological than statistical, obviously written by a real woman who knew the rope, so to speak…:-)
Some striking quotes:
“6. The most certain way of losing prestige is to let a man see that he occupies a more important place in your mind than you in his, but a woman who is infatuated will find it difficult to conceal her feelings.”
That is all there… and the last part of the quote shows that she knew what falling in love meant.
However, this (although this is within the context of seducing men) sounds like a slightly hypocritical preaching:
“2. Avoid being nasty about other females or blabbing their secrets.”
As of today, I have never seen any woman being able to contain their animosity toward another one when they are competing for the same “target”, nor disclosing to the same target their disgust about the “other girl” with exhuberant glee…
Watching two women in that situation, exercising their tongues like daggers, and using their glassy eyes like bullets against one another in one of those female squaring of accounts, even in a quiet voice during a social event, should be one of the best forewarning lessons for the young guys who think they can dominate women at will, only to find themselves later spilling out a bitter pill. I guess this is what fou call there the “red pill”.
Han Solo, how does this square with the stories (mentioned in the other thread) of women of other ethnicities bleaching and dying themselves to emulate the beauty standards of the dominant ethnic group, just to attract the men within their own ethnic groups?
Also, fun fact: did you know that during the Renaissance, women plucked their foreheads in order to achieve a high hairline that was considered an essential trait of beauty? <a href="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx2xrcSJ4v1qzy8r9.jpg"Here's a portrait from that era.
Do you think that Renaissance men were like, “ugh, I don’t understand why all these dudes are into ten-heads, I prefer tiny foreheads, myself!” The women still got married…perhaps Renaissance men didn’t find plucked foreheads too grotesque?
Oh, shoot. Link messed up.
Here it is again: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx2xrcSJ4v1qzy8r9.jpg
@Susan
The only guys I’ve ever heard actually use “Stage 5 Clinger” in real life are douchey alpha types.
@SW
Joe & Co., I am not letting this go!
If men are so competition-averse in matters of the heart, why do some men pursue women who are already spoken for? I have witnessed beta orbiters do it, so it cannot be a purely unrestricted-alpha phenomenon.
Can anybody provide an answer for why beta orbiters pursue girls who are already in relationships?
I am not looking to chastise male sexuality here, I would really just like to understand the possible reasoning behind this motivation, and how it squares with the unwillingness to compete.
I’ve only watched the show, but Jon Snow seems like an idiot while Robb Stark seems like a military master-mind, if a bit brutal at times.
Not that I don’t like both of them, but if I HAD to choose, I would pick Stark!
Okay, this makes sense, as she was sort of a tease.
But even with hints of interest, given the supposed male proclivity to avoid competing over a woman, why did they still compete?
@INTJ
Haven’t you seen it all? Joffrey ends up not marrying her and decide to marry the ambitious chick who was going to marry Renly.
I think there are always going to be some cultural standards of beauty that vary from era to era that will shift how men as a whole think…
But I absolutely don’t think most guys gain any attraction to a girl when they see she has other options. That’s really limited to guys who are motivated by hyper-competitiveness and jealousy. Basically, the alphas.
For average guys, it’s neutral at best.
What I am not understanding is:
Girl who is a tease and has multiple beta orbiters, and is single => not worth the competition.
Girl who is a tease and has multiple beta orbiters, and is in a relationship => “Shall we joust?”
Strawman!
We are not discussing “gaining attraction”, we are discussing what makes one girl more “competition-worthy” to beta orbiters over another, holding everything constant save for relationship availability.
@SW
I think your conflating the attractions of a relatively small subset of men and applying it to the whole.
Do most relationships form by men mate poaching girlfriends?
No. It might make for a fun female fantasy land where one is that heavily desired but most people are single, date and then become exclusive.
@SayWhaat
I think there is a slight societal influence on what men find beautiful but not much…maybe like 10-20% society and the rest is just them. I am very white but personally prefer a woman with olive or dark olive colored skin and brown or black hair. I also don’t find the super skinny runway models with masculine faces highly beautiful (though admittedly they’re still pretty often). The example is Gisele. She’s like a 7.5 to me no matter how many magazines she’s been on. OTOH, Alessandra Ambrosia is a 9.8 to me. lol
By dominant I take it you mean white or whiter? I could be wrong but I would venture to say that those men in the ethnic groups just flat out find those features more attractive. I could see a little of it due to status effects of the dominant thing but you have to understand that most of what a man thinks about a woman’s appearance is just an involuntary response to what he sees before him. But why not ask them? I can tell you that there are certain features in woman I like and don’t like. Some of them are part of the dominant group and some aren’t.
As to plucking the hairline, do you have a record that most men found that attractive? Or was that simply the style, propagated by influential women and their tailors?
I stand by my statement: “He finds that woman attractive mostly because he finds her attractive, not because society deemed her a great beauty.”
What do other guys on here think about this?
I don’t, as I mainly introduced the subject as an aside. But I don’t think it’s a leap of faith to assume that they would! If I stopped threading my eyebrows, I doubt I would receive as much male attraction than if I didn’t. I woul posit that on a micro level, women follow beauty trends as part of intrasexual competition, but on a macro level they follow beauty trends in order to be more attractive to the larger male population, or at least the particular demographic that they are targeting.
This would make a fascinating research topic!
I stand by my statement: “He finds that woman attractive mostly because he finds her attractive, not because society deemed her a great beauty.”
What do other guys on here think about this?
I agree.
I do think there is some overall societal effects on what men perceive as beautiful, but that doesn’t translate down to an individual women being viewed as not attractive and then just because 10 guys say she is attractive the guy changes his mind.
I think at one time very porcelain skin was viewed as the ideal, and then at other times more of a tan so different standards could hold at different times although I have a hard time imagining society influencing me to view a giant forehead as attractive.
INTJ,
It would be wise to show deference to the Mother of Dragons..
Lol! Good point. FWIW, it didn’t happen that way in the books. The nurse from the show version is terribly annoying!
Again, I don’t know the situation, so I can’t say for sure…. but if they viewed her bf as a douchebag, it could’ve inspired white-knighting protective instincts. I’ve certainly seen that situation play out many times.
But isn’t that par the course here?
I’m not trying to apply it to the whole population of men. I just want to understand what might be the reasoning behind it.
Unfortunately, he was as beta as they came. She cheated on him a few times.
Hmm, I don’t think I am explaining this situation as clearly as I should be.
Okay, so there is this girlfriend of mine. She had a boyfriend who doted on her. She is flirty and very pretty. One guy in her class brought her a cookie every day. Another guy gave her a big gift before she left for a weeklong trip (it was a stuffed lion or something…I think he said it was to “keep her safe”).
So, here is a girl who was 1) clearly in a relationship with a guy who loved her, 2) a flirt, and 3) had beta orbiters who knew her boyfriend.
Why would the beta orbiters still compete for her affection when she was already unavailable? Shouldn’t they have known that it was an exercise in futility?
Think of it this way:
Let’s say you find an opening for your dream job, and they bring you in for an interview.
Are you going to feel better if you go in for the interview, they pay special attention to you, and act extremely interested?
Or if you go in, wait in a waiting room with 20 other similarly and better-qualified candidates, and your interviewer is aloof ?
Personally, I wouldn’t get any extra satisfaction out of the second situation. I’d probably be a lot more self-conscious and nervous. I’d be a lot more confident and excited to go forward with the process in the first situation.
And if it’s your dream job, are you really going to be upset if you’re the only candidate? Hell no. You’ll be excited about your odds.
I should note that the first time she cheated on her bf was *after* these beta orbiters had left her orbit, so they couldn’t have known about any possibility of her cheating on her bf with them beforehand. (Not that she would have with them, anyway.)
Okay, that’s almost close to what I am asking, but not entirely similar.
Let’s change it to this:
You go in for the interview and they inform you that the slot is already filled. But they would like to interview you anyway.
Knowing that in advance, how would you feel if you go in for the interview, they pay special attention to you, and act extremely interested? How would you feel if there were 20 other candidates and the interviewer is aloof?
@SW
She was a cheater and your asking why guys were hanging around to potentially get laid?
Personally, a woman in a relationship has always been a bit of a let down.
Kinda like “well that sucks” then move on.
Never pursued another guys woman, that is not cool.
So what I think you are trying to tell me, Jimmy, is that men generally do not want to compete over a woman, but they will compete as long as they think that they have a viable chance at winning her?
“He finds that woman attractive mostly because he finds her attractive, not because society deemed her a great beauty.”
Of course. Yet some do not follow their own choices, but rather what they perceive is the preferable choice by, say, their entourage.
LL, please see my comment at #281. They did not know of the possibility of her cheating prior to entering her orbit.
@SW
Sticking to my original point in that she probably gave off an infidelity vibe.
Think about it, most people drop orbiters and friends alike after getting serious.
@HS
“I stand by my statement: “He finds that woman attractive mostly because he finds her attractive, not because society deemed her a great beauty.”
What do other guys on here think about this?”
I think certain traits are malleable by society.
Others are fairly hardwired ex. WHR.
I think having to explain how preselection doesn’t make a woman more attractive is like trying to explain that the sky is blue. Not even why, just explaining that it is.
Nearly impossible task as women don’t think or feel attraction like men.
@SW, 284
Yes. If a viable chance has been offered and the man finds her attractive, I suspect competition will be considered.
My guess is in their mind, she wasn’t unavailable (actually, that sounds like the reality). She probably gave them more attention and hope than any other girl did at the time, or she was probably significantly hotter than any girl they had attention from at the time. Or maybe they’re just idiots. Probably a combo of the three.
Point is, I highly doubt it was competition that drove them to do what they did. My guess is she had them emotionally hooked. That’s a much bigger motivator than competition for most guys.
Okay, so there is some sort of “system override” setting on this thing. That is what I wanted to know.
Thank you.
@HanSolo
But Jason did not want her. He could not respect, trust or love her. But he did like the fact that she cleaned his apartment.
Why is it “fair” that she clean his apartment while he is at work, or do his laundry? What is the fair exchange? What was she getting in return for those chores? Clearly she was investing in a future with Jason, but he dumped her, clean bathroom notwithstanding. From a strategic perspective, she bought high and sold low.
This makes sense. Thank you.
Yep. Emotionally hooked + good odds will make guys do all kinds of stuff.
Yes, I agree with this. FWIW, this point is what I was trying to get at.
In sum, the following theories are not wholly correct:
1. Men do not want to participate in competitions of the heart, and
2. Men are not subject to the changes to the definition of beauty, as set by society.
As always, YMMV.
The Power of Social Proof in Dating
“In truth, however, there’s no evidence to suggest that social proof can’t work for women too. In fact, a recent study at Indiana University has demonstrated that men are affected by social proof too. It’s understandable that the approval of friends and family is important and influential when selecting a potential mate. However, this study shows that strangers play an important role as well.
“The men’s interest in the women was generally positive after watching the videos but it increased significantly if the male peer in the video appeared to be interested in that woman and if the online men were considered as attractive or more so than the study participant. When the men in the video seemed uninterested, however, the male participants’ interest didn’t change much.
An intriguing finding involved the sway men had on each other. Place found that the interest of male study participants in the women in the videos increased in relation to the good looks of the men in the video.
“For men, relative attractiveness of the people they’re watching matters — not just anyone can influence their behavior, just other men they think are at least as attractive as they are,” Place said.”
Clearly, men take their cues from dominant men. They determine who’s hot according to what the most socially dominant males find attractive.”
“If you’re hot, men will find you attractive, because you’re hot. Not because other men find you attractive. ”
Sorry but, rubbish. What’s the universal definition of “hot”?
I think I am starting to finally grok some of this Girl Game stuff as outlined in this post. I think it would be helpful if each point was illustrated in a situation, e.g.:
A man does not often want what nobody else would have. He covets what others have already found desirable. The more proof he has that you are sought after, the more convinced he will be that you are worth seeking.
Kaley has a crush on Matt. Kaley flirts with Matt during class. When he suggests the two study together, Kaley should casually mention that she needs to study for some other class with her friend. She should not specify the sex of the friend. If Matt is interested in Kaley, he will want to know who that friend is and how close of a friend he is to Kaley. (Matt has already assumed that “friend” is a male.) Matt’s intrigue for Kaley is heightened. +1 Kaley.
Something along those lines…the above situation is actually advice my girlfriend gave me (the same one with the galaxy of beta orbiters). Maybe the other girls can paint similar scenarios to illustrate the post’s tenets?
@ HanSolo
Yes but he had the sanction of the gods because Sansa was the daughter of a traitor and her brother was in open rebellion. He had an excuse to break the vow. Robb Stark didn’t have any such reason to break off the engagement. His excuse was “I’m in love”.
Regardless of either situation, if the position was already filled, at best I’d just go through the motions to be polite and keep myself on their radar for the distant future. But I wouldn’t follow up, offer ideas, have references call, etc. I wouldn’t have even applied if I knew they had already filled position in advance.
Since there’s no job to be had, I don’t think it would matter if I was by myself or one of 20. I wouldn’t be nearly as motivated in either case.
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