Be a Lover Before You Are a Wife

December 14, 2012

The National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia conducted a study exploring men’s feelings about commitment and marriage. 

The men in this study express a desire to marry and have children sometime in their lives, but they are in no hurry. They enjoy their single life and they experience few of the traditional pressures from church, employers or the society that once encouraged men to marry. Moreover, the sexual revolution and the trend toward cohabitation offer them some of the benefits of marriage without its obligations. If this trend continues, it will not be good news for the many young women who hope to marry and bear children before they begin to face problems associated with declining fertility.

The top ten reasons why men won’t commit are:

  1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past.
  2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.
  3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks.
  4. They want to wait until they are older to have children.
  5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises.
  6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.
  7. They face few social pressures to marry.
  8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children.
  9. They want to own a house before they get a wife.
  10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

Let’s focus on reason #2: 

They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.

If a man has a girlfriend who provides all the benefits of a wife, why should he marry? Research shows that cohabiting couples are more likely to have children than they are to marry. I strongly advise women not to live with their partners until they have discussed marriage and feel certain of a future together. Similarly, I would strongly advise a woman not to assume a cohabitor role when you are dating someone without having reached that level of serious commitment.

Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one, leaves a man without a reason to offer you commitment, much less marry. He may enjoy your relationship, and all the perks you provide, only to decide after several years that he just does not feel inspired to marry you. It’s so common it’s a pitiful cliche.

To rouse a man to full commitment, you must inspire him. Otherwise he will see no reason to change his life.

A man does not look at ten women with the understanding that he will marry one of them, and proceed to audition each for the role. A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it. He wants to take her off the market before another man discovers how wonderful she is. 

He must know that you have the self-respect not to debase yourself by performing the duties and responsibilities of a wife when you are in fact just a girlfriend. 

Emotional attraction is created in men when they feel appreciated, and that they have inspired emotional investment in a woman. How can women display emotional investment in a way that inspires reciprocation, and a deepening commitment on his part?

Christian Carter is a dating coach for women, who wrote Why Men Settle Down with One Woman and Not Another 
for eHarmony:

One of the biggest things I teach is about building a solid foundation for a lasting relationship with a man.  And the way to do this is by creating POSITIVE EXPERIENCES with him.  Men can’t be talked into relationships.  The need for commitment arises from an emotional need deep inside a man.  In order for a man to see you as a necessary part of his life, you need to create the right kind of experiences that serve to create emotional attraction in him. 

A positive experience is anything that you both enjoy and that, above all, is fun.  Fight the need to talk about the relationship, and instead turn your attention to creating great moments together.  Do different things with him – play sports along with the usual dinners and movies.  Spend time in groups of friends.  Read the paper together and do spontaneous things without planning.  Mix it up.  All of these experiences show him that you are a woman who is easy and playful to be with, and that’s the kind of woman he’ll realize he’d be a fool to let go of.

This is the most effective strategy a woman can employ. Her efforts should be substantial, creative and fun. Unexpected gestures are the most effective in rousing a man’s feelings. Your goal should be to delight him and instill confidence that these delights are as rewarding for you as they are for him. 

Positive experiences should occur intermittently rather than on a schedule or routine. A well-timed thoughtful surprise, in the middle of the week, is infinitely more effective in creating relationship value through emotional investment than buying his razor blades and socks for a year. 

Positive experiences motivate a man to cherish you. They do not allow you to be taken for granted, because there is no particular expectation, other than that you will continue to be awesome and find new ways to delight him. Do not allow your relationship to become mundane or revolve around expectations that services will be performed on a schedule. You don’t ever want your boyfriend to say, “My girlfriend always takes care of “x” for me,” unless he is referring to his mind-blowing orgasms. 

Here are  examples of positive experiences, both large and small, that I have found effective in rousing men to become more committed in my own life:

Food

  1. Prepare his favorite childhood dish or comfort food. Whether it’s his Nonna’s Sunday gravy, his mother’s pot roast or his dad’s blueberry pancakes, your version probably won’t be as good, but it doesn’t matter. 
  2. Prepare a special “TV Dinner” when there’s a game on that he doesn’t want to miss. Set it up on a small table in front of him, and join him to watch the game and eat together.
  3. Make a picnic during winter and eat it on the floor in front of the fireplace. 
  4. Make a big fuss about his birthday by cooking a special meal, and inviting close friends to share it. 
  5. Send him to work with a bento box filled with something delicious.
  6. Prepare and deliver homemade chicken soup when he is sick. Stick around if he wants company, otherwise serve it, kiss him on the forehead, and go.
  7. Bring him coffee first thing in the morning as he’s waking up.
  8. Plan a meal that you can cook and eat together, and do the shopping beforehand.
  9. Grab a bottle of wine, head to the Farmer’s Market together to buy great food, and then have an impromptu picnic in a pretty spot.
  10. Make breakfast while he dozes, then eat it naked in bed together.

Fun Activities

  1. Score tickets to some quirky event that is all about his interests. 
  2. Ask him to leave a Saturday open and pick him up for a novel adventure, e.g. snowboarding, hiking, even a trip to the beach.
  3. Plan a weekend getaway for the two of you – and pay for it.
  4. Invite him to a family gathering, but only if it promises to be fun.
  5. Take him to hear a favorite author read.
  6. Attend a film festival or vintage movie house.
  7. Almost anything you’ve never done before – you do the legwork and pay.

Nesting

  1. Sex, sex, sex. Switch things up.
  2. Get stuff in at your place to make him comfortable when he stays: a bathrobe, flannel pants, toothbrush, etc.
  3. Wear his shirt. Men like to see women in their big, masculine clothes.Credit: PARAMOUNT PICTURES / Album
  4. Hibernate. In advance of a storm invite him over to get socked in with plenty of provisions, and new lingerie. No electronics.
  5. Take a bubble bath by candlelight, and serve a bottle of Prosecco. Wash his hair.
  6. Learn how to give a real, beneficial back rub and give him one, with oil.
  7. Scratch his back, starting with very light scratches all over his back, getting harder as you go. 
  8. Invite him to bring over his favorite movie of all time.

Gifts

  1. Find a copy of his favorite childhood book. ardizzone
  2. Find a first edition of his favorite adult book.
  3. Find something unusual that he has admired, e.g. tab-collar shirt. wolfe
  4. Add to or inspire a collection. RARESTVintageStarWarsFigures
  5. Make him something. I’ve made scarves, ornaments, pillows, a painting, a table. It doesn’t matter what you make – as long as it’s personally relevant.

Your primary goal is to demonstrate love and affection. You might as well do it in a way that inspires and motivates a man to want more of you in his life. Flattered, pleased and appreciative is not enough.

The years of making a life together will be filled with routine and tedious responsibilities as well as joy. Until then, skip the drudgery and give him something he’ll always remember.

One Pingback/Trackback

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Everything on this list is awesome.

    “Make a big fuss about his birthday by cooking a special meal, and inviting close friends to share it. ”

    +1

    “Bring him coffee first thing in the morning as he’s waking up.”

    Ring worthy.

    “Wear his shirt. Men like to see women in their big, masculine clothes.”

    + a billion.
    Another note, don’t wear other guys clothes (past relationships or family)
    I had an ex that always wore her brothers sweatshirt.

    “Learn how to give a real, beneficial back rub and give him one, with oil.
    Scratch his back, starting with very light scratches all over his back, getting harder as you go. ”

    I’m having difficulty determining which is better here. Leaning towards the back scratch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I wanted to clarify that it is very important for women to show care and attention to the men they love, just not in the way we were debating yesterday. I truly believe this strategy is far superior.

  • TMG

    Been noticing another trend of articles asking why men aren’t marrying in the media. Yet still no mention of the virulently anti-male laws and family courts that discourage men from marriage. Regardless of how supportive and beneficient women may become, a growing number of men in our society will never get married due to the Sword of Damocles that appears at the neck the minute they say “I do.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @TMG

      I highlighted the risk of divorce in the list of 10 reasons. Why the need to hammer it home again when it has nothing to do with the post? In fact, more young men than women say they intend to marry.

      http://blog.match.com/2011/02/04/the-forgotten-sex-men/

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    I feel like my relationships are always so backwards according to studies like this. For me personally, I love living with a bf without being married. I have been proposed to after having moved in with him. It’s not him that’s not in a hurry to get married, it’s me. I just don’t see the rush. I am perfectly happy being together, living together, and being unmarried.

    I would have an issue with marrying a man before knowing how it is to live with him. If I married him and then found out that’s he is not willing to help me keep a clean house, pitch in with cooking, or pay half of the rent and bills on time, I would not be very happy in that marriage. I have to know before hand that he wants a wife and a wife only and not a wife in the bedroom and a mom the rest of the time to do all of his dirty work for him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have to know before hand that he wants a wife and a wife only and not a wife in the bedroom and a mom the rest of the time to do all of his dirty work for him.

      This is an interesting statement. What will you be willing to do for your husband, in addition to sex?

  • Escoffier

    First of all, girls, don’t buy him shirts. If you want a detailed explanation of why not, I can provide it.

    Second, the book advice is great. To this day, the best gift I ever received was the Italian edition of Machiavelli’s works, which was the same edition used by the author of my all-time favorite book of scholarship. The reason it was so important is that the scholarly book has literally more than 600 footnotes, with thousands of references to Machiavelli’s books, all paginated to that one Italian edition. So without that edition, using the footnotes and ultimatey understanding the book would have been impossible. The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

    Third, and most important, I see a large contradiction here:

    “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it. He wants to take her off the market before another man discovers how wonderful she is.”

    “He must know that you have the self-respect not to debase yourself by performing the duties and responsibilities of a wife when you are in fact just a girlfriend.”

    Well, ladies, you can take this as gospel or you can consider the words of various men who say that pre-marital signs that you would be a good wife do indeed include the very things that Susan objects to so much.

    Susan, before you straw-man this into “You’re saying a girl has to come over and clean your bathroom by a certain point,” please allow me to explicitly deny that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      First of all, girls, don’t buy him shirts. If you want a detailed explanation of why not, I can provide it.

      I want the explanation! I just scored three Thomas Pink shirts for my husband at Nordstrom Rack for pennies, and he was thrilled.

      The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

      That is exactly the response women should be going for.

      Well, ladies, you can take this as gospel or you can consider the words of various men who say that pre-marital signs that you would be a good wife do indeed include the very things that Susan objects to so much.

      It is clear that performing wifely duties before marriage lowers the value of marriage, and therefore of the woman. Sex is the biggie, but very few men will wait for that post Sex Rev, so we must turn our attention to the next biggest reason men delay marriage. All the benefits of marriage, not only with cohabitation, but even from a girlfriend who has her own place!

      No man ever proposed in appreciation of a good scrub of anything but his back.

  • Toz

    Anyone else notice the power dynamics are almost exactly the opposite of what they were before the guy and girl start dating?

    Also, this is pretty much the exact advice given to guys from the blue-pill main stream media.

    Projection!

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I agree with this completely. My modus operandi was never have sex (or do anything naked) with a man who hasn’t said “I love you,” and never move in with a man who hasn’t said “I can see us marrying and having kids.” Oh and he must really mean those things, with other words/actions affirming those statements.

    For creating positive experiences and doing shared fun activities, my biggest thing was playing computer games. My husband loves that I play his favorite games with him while listening to the same music he loves. And I’ve always been into nerdy stuff like D&D, sci-fi, guy movies, etc. I can engage in esoteric conversations for hours, which makes both of us happy.

    Also, sushi. It’s his absolute favorite. He also likes to eat out and try new restaurants. I’m frugal, but this is one thing I don’t turn him down on because I know he enjoys it so much. It’s a good thing we have similar tastes and like similar activities. The online gaming thing keeps our activities “fresh” because there are always new ones and new updates. Plus, the sex ratio is skewed, and girls are very few!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Those are great ideas!

  • Johnycomelately

    Ashley aptly demonstrates that it is women who are eschewing marriage in their sexual prime, not men.

    The study should have been about why men are avoiding marrying post wall Alpha crumbs.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    I’d rather go for the all around approach.
    This stuff is really good.

    I’ve also decided the back scratch is by far preferable.
    Should be noted that working left to right from top to bottom is far preferable and don’t forget to reach around the sides a bit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Should be noted that working left to right from top to bottom is far preferable and don’t forget to reach around the sides a bit.

      Haha, I’m a lover of back scratches too! My husband gives me at least two a day, and I love that feeling of his chasing the itch around and catching it!

  • Lokland

    Note: this trumps doing laundry.

  • Lokland

    Scratch that.

    Circular scratching motion over shoulder blades and upper back.
    Smaller circles moving outwards.
    Then lower back what i said above.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    “Be a lover before you are a wife?” I co-sign 100%

    Funny how we reach the same conclusion from very different perspectives. Re cohabitation, I did not say it is never advisable. In my own experience, cohabitation was a greater financial commitment for me than my husband, because we shared all our resources and I was making more, but the truth is that by living together we both saved a ton of money over living separately. It is extremely financially efficient, and therefore quite useful for a couple intending to marry. In our case, our sex life went through the roof, as we were together much more frequently. Highly recommended.

    Relationships last best when you spin more plates or at the very least keep each other at arm’s distance.

    This statement is just so sad and pitiable that I don’t even have to heart to rebut it.

  • Sai

    Food – yay
    Snowboarding – yay
    Arts and crafts – yay
    #4 in the gifts section made me smile.

  • deti

    SW, money quote for the win:

    “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it.”

  • Just1Z

    “8.Invite him to bring over his favorite movie of all time.”

    “Lesbian Spank Inferno”? really?
    Coupling (i.e. not that movie, but where that movie was invented)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKGK2fplV_w

    Patrick (the guy with the hair) thinkks the woman next to him is a lesbian. She thinks he is gay (the hair – duh!)

  • Just1Z

    oh, and the ‘gay’ couple sleep with each other – both thinking that they were hawt enough to convert the other.

    and the clip IS SFW

  • Escoffier

    I have much to say but I am so sick to my stomach over this vileness in Connecticut that I can’t think straight at the moment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I had no idea what you were talking about so googled CT news. 18 children, my god.

  • Just1Z

    The feminists must be very proud that
    “1.Sex, sex, sex. Switch things up.”
    is recommended, but cleaning the frigging shower when it’s full of your hair is verboten…

    the religious…not so much

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1Z

      If a woman fills the shower drain with hair every time she sleeps over, she needs to see a Dr. tout de suite. But your objection to prioritizing sexual variety is duly noted.

  • Escoffier

    Like I said, Sex on the first date? Why not, hook-ups are the gateway to relationships. Do your dishes before marriage? Hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am??!!

    Feminism in a nutshell.

  • Escoffier

    All the way down to Kindergardeners. 5y/o.

    I mean, what do we have to do? Homeschool? I’d hate to take them out but this country is becoming … I don’t know what … or I suspect I do …

  • J

    Great post.

    My only quibble is that I don’t believe in cohabitation before marriage; there’s too big a chance that you will give up all you’ve built for yourself and end up with nothing. I’ve seen people sell homes or condos and get rid of half their stuff only to have to rebuild a year or two later. While I spent loads of time at DH’s before the wedding, the moving van with my stuff arrived after the honeymoon.

    The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

    One of the best things I ever got DH was a signed, out of print book that he’d been hankering for. I paid more for shipping than I did for the book.

    I love this: “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it.” These days, what other reason is there to marry?

    As to shirts (and ties, too), DH returns just about everything I buy unless it is exactly like what he already wears. I can replace existing items, but I never buy anything different. If I want to play Ken doll, I buy for my sons. They love my taste in clothes.

    As to backrubs, DH has a narrow window of sensation that he likes, and it took me years to learn to do it right. He’ll never find another woman who can do it, so BWA HA HA HA HA! He’s screwed without me.

  • Just1Z

    @Just1Z

    my comment was more about changing social standards meaning that cleaning his pipes was preferable to cleaning the pipes.

    but hey, you go for it

  • Mireille

    Taking shortcuts with that “feminism” stuff, are we? It seems to me it has to do with women refusing to do things for a man that he himself won’t do for you in return. I believe it is about not being taken advantage of. Men also do it and it keeps the balance in relationships. People can define what their expectations when they get married, since marriage is a common enterprise.

    Even those “evil” feminists get married and some have healthy relationships; it is about entering marriage knowing all there is to know, and defining stuff before, not just “hoping” it works out and be disappointed because things don’t work out the way you assumed it would. Like Susan said, it is about equity; I’ll do nice things; I hope they’re appreciated, not expected, otherwise they wouldn’t be qualified as nice, would they? They’ll just be a “job”.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    Suzan.

    Great post. More like this please.

  • Abbot

    .
    11. weeding out sluts is a multi-year process
    .

  • J

    Re the Conn. shooting–

    The shooter appears to have been an emotionally disturbed young man of 24 and his intended victim was his mother. He apparently shoot up her whole classroom.

  • J

    my comment was more about changing social standards meaning that cleaning his pipes was preferable to cleaning the pipes

    Well, one IS more enjoyable than the other. I’ve yet to climax while scrubbing the toilet.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    The shooting in Connecticut is just awful. I started crying at work and had to stop reading about it. It’s 10 days before Christmas! The kids would have presents waiting for them… that they’ll never open… :(

  • Just1Z

    Equity is cool, no problem with that. fair trade and all that is all good.

    again; my comment was about the changing of attitudes in society.

    Susan has previously said that feminists with their, “women can have sex like men”, were wrong. It was not true of many women. now, it seems, it’s less significant than cleaning your own hair out of the shower…wow, bit of a shocker TBH.

    I’m glad women enjoy ‘it’, that they’re not just laying back and thinking of England.

    I don’t recommend that men get married.
    I don’t recommend co-habiting either (all they need to do is redefine marriage as cohabiting for more than X years…cue family court)
    I co-habited before my marriage, I would not ever have considered marrying without that level of sharing of life beforehand. Given that I ended up divorcing the psycho…this article has much to recommend it. lmfao

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      now, it seems, it’s less significant than cleaning your own hair out of the shower…wow, bit of a shocker TBH.

      So many strawmen, and so little time!

  • J

    I can’t imagine anything worse than losing a child.

  • J

    I don’t recommend co-habiting either (all they need to do is redefine marriage as cohabiting for more than X years…cue family court)

    And they will too–if for no other reason than to give baby daddies the same rights and responsibilities as married fathers.

  • Mireille

    “I co-habited before my marriage, I would not ever have considered marrying without that level of sharing of life beforehand. Given that I ended up divorcing the psycho…this article has much to recommend it. lmfao”

    Funny that you don’t consider the possibility that maybe, you should not have co-habited before marrying, it could have brought a different outcome.
    I personally don’t want to co-habit before marriage. I’ll only consider it if a proposal for marriage is made and a date is set for a year from then. I’m the type to just elope anyway. We’ll go get our marriage license and then plan church and party for parents later.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    This post is on the money. The Connecticut shooting is another level of evil. Heinous doesn’t even come close.

  • Rgoltn

    Ashley’s POV that she needs to “test” the guy out before committing to see if he keeps a clean house or helps pay the bills is quite shallow. Living with someone is NOT the same as being married. You can play “house” and share bills, but there is a deeper connection you make when you get married….However, only those who truly commit experience it.

    Now, there is a lot of divorce today and I believe that many people get married for the party, rings, gifts etc. and do not make the emotional committment required to build a solid mariage. I have been married for 17+ years and it has not always been hot sex and fun. Marriage is about compromise and being selfless and there are so many women and men out there who are selfish and unable to give more than they receive. When you get married you have to be 150% “all in.” Living separate, but equal lives does not work. If you bail at the first sign of troubled waters, you should never have married in the first place.

    Also, I have known plenty of people who got divorced after 10+ years because they were living separate lives; just roommates sharing a house and kids together. They did not nourish their relationships and fed them with love, appreciation, sex and support. Being married does not mean one gives up everything about his/herself. However, it does mean that one always considers their partner and family before making numerous decisions. That is being a responsble, married adult. Roommates, fu*k-buddies and those that play being married generally lack that sort of consideration.

    I cannot tell you how often my wife’s divorced or never-married over 40 friends tell her in private how depressed and unhappy they are because they have no man in their lives. Thye fear they will never be deeply loved. They have good jobs & $$, dogs & cats and even kids, but nobody in “their camp” except for 600 Facebook friends and other single, depressed women over 40 with kids, cats & dogs.

    There are plenty of men out there who may keep a messy room, closet, car etc. but are solid guys willing to stand behind their wife, children, in-laws etc. without question. When real-life happens like the horror in CT today or when your mom gets cancer or you lose your job or you end up in the hospital from a car wreck, you do not care if your husband cleaned the kitchen.

    You want to know if he is there for you; keeping you upright, strong and doing the things to ensure that you, your child, your family etc. are taken care of and are helped in getting through the situation. The sad fact is that women like Ashley worry so much about how well a guy keeps a fu*king bathroom clean that they disqualify the ones that matter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rgoltn

      +1 on your whole comment.

      I actually have almost zero expectations of my husband around helping in the house. We have a kind of unspoken rule that he cleans up after dinner, but I “work clean” and he rarely has to do anything but stack the plates in the dishwasher.

      If I were working full time I think it would be similar – he wouldn’t do housework, but we’d hire more people to help.

      I do expect him to not throw his stuff around for me to pick up, and that’s never an issue. He is actually neater by nature than I am.

      When our kids were little he did pitch in with them on the weekends, which he enjoyed.

  • Just1Z

    @Mireille
    good for you *hugs* n *kisses*
    seeing as you have all the answers, I’m sure it’ll all work out fine

  • Just1Z

    also, she didn’t move in until after she had proposed and I had accepted, so by Susan’s standards it was all pukka

  • Escoffier

    ^^ If that is true, then it should happen in marriage too, no? And we know that it does but in what % of marriages? “Studies show” that on average married men have more and better sex than unmarried men. Maybe not more than the most successful players but more than average. It may be a meme that marriage=automatic bed death but it does not appear to be universally true.

    In any event, in most any relationship whether married, shacked up or whatever, sex frequency and intensity is likely going to go down as passion inevitably cools, people get older, etc. The standard should not be to keep it at the same white hot level forever but to keep it good (enough) to make both parties happy and the marriage successful.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    Your argument would obviously imply the same drop in sex after marriage, in which case the advice would be “don’t get married.” Yet people who cohabit or are married have considerably more sex than singles.

    The fact is that sexual frequency does change over time in most relationships, though not all, and may be affected by many factors. Men who want to remain single and experience sexual variety should obviously not cohabit. Access to sex is actually a very poor reason for cohabiting.

    What guys don’t understand is that they lose their most valuable resources in cohabitation – privacy and their ability to maneuver.

    Why would men in a committed relationship leading to marriage require privacy and room to maneuver? It seems to me that you’re simply saying it’s harder to instill dread when you live with someone and can’t pretend other women are calling you up, chasing you, etc. You are revealed in all your ordinariness, and since you do not trust the woman’s attraction, you are now the one confronting increased anxiety as your cover is blown.

  • J

    The Connecticut shooting is another level of evil. Heinous doesn’t even come close.

    The shooter apparently shot another relative prior to going to the school. I am assuming that he is psychotic. What can you do?

    My kids’ high school runs these “safety drills” that are aimed at being prepared for an atack by a terrorist or psychotic, but I feel pretty certain that if the worst happens those drills will be useless.

  • Mireille

    I personally believe co-habitation is a pale substitute to marriage. People decide to co-habit after they realize they spend a lot of time together at each others place. However, the euphoria of merging lodgings must dissipate quite quick. Moving in with someone when no clear marriage plan has been made is not as charged emotionally as when someone tells you that they are welcoming you in their life for good imo. It truly believe this is why pre-marital sex and co-habitation were shunned in the old age. The newness and energy of a young marriage is what is now put at the early stages of dating. By the time co-habitation comes around, there is not so much crazy enthusiasm and I’m not surprised some women lose interest. Co-habitation is not the same as marriage. Very few couples can maintain such excitement and work at renewing and refueling that energy over the long term.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    J, those types of people need psychatric help, but unfortunately good care is expensive and often not sought at all.

    Rgoltn, that was a good comment. When we lost our first boy to stillbirth, my husband was right there with me. We are closer now than we were when the “new relationship energy” was high. What we have now is simply irreplaceable.

  • Just1Z

    @J
    “And they will too–if for no other reason than to give baby daddies the same rights and responsibilities as married fathers.”
    that’s right – don’t cohabit.

  • J

    What people don’t understand is that they lose their most valuable resources in cohabitation – privacy and their ability to maneuver.

    FYFY–There’s a huge opportunity cost to women as well in moving in with (or otherwise being exclusive with) a guy who hasn’t committed.

    Look at this poor dumb bitch who wasted 6 years on a man who couldn’t commit:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2247192/My-mortifying-moment-Christmas-party-hell-48-desperate.html

    I have mentioned my friend who is divorcing a narcissist. He somehow conned some dumb slag with two kids into moving him with despite the fact that the divorce is far from being settled. She writes my friend little nastygrams about her dilemma in living with the narcissist who has undoubt promised marriage and the unfairness to her in my friend’s “dragging out the divorce.” My guess is that once the divorce is final, this guy will not be so anxious to commit again. In the meantime, the slag has sold her home, moved her kids in a new home and school district away from their friends and exposed them to a man with serious issues, and has made herself a factor in the lives of two other kids who are in the midst of their own acrimonious family situation. No ring, no date, just a big house that she’ll be kicked out in a few years.

    In the meantime, she could be out meeting a good guy or maybe even patching things up with her ex.

  • J

    that’s right – don’t cohabit.

    It’s a problem for both men and women. Not to invalidate the positive experience of some here, unless there is some firm commitment and a whole lot of trust, it’s a set up for having all the problems of marriage with none of the commitment to solving them.

  • J

    those types of people need psychatric help, but unfortunately good care is expensive and often not sought at all.

    Indeed.

  • Escoffier

    “Athol Kay has built a small financial empire with MMSL due entirely to this not being true.”

    No he hasn’t. He’s built a website to help those for whom it is true. He nowhere claims that such men are the majority of married men or anywhere close. The best data we have suggests it’s not only not true, but that the truth is the reverse.

    I don’t know what the %s are, but even if (say) 20% of men were stuck in a sexless or sexually unsatisfying marriage, that’s still a huge audience in absolute numbers for someone like Athol. Yet 20% would still be only a fraction of all married men.

  • Just1Z

    @J
    I wouldn’t marry without spending a lot of time with a woman first, but I can see where you’re coming from. Both of ‘us’ wanted to live together, my regret (given that we divorced) was that we ever got legally entangled. Splitting after >5 years would always have been painful, but legally simpler if we’d never married. Her dad was still paying off the marriage celebrations that she wanted – but then he was part of what created the problem (imho) so, some justice was had (I guess, fwiw, no real joy here for me).

    I, personally, would never marry someone without having plentiful nooky with them first. But I’m pretty sure that Mireille is correct in that a no-sex-before-marriage marriage between virgins gets the carnal relationship off to a rocking start. In fact you would probably have to use a tyre lever to seperate them for the early days.

    On the whole I’m glad those days are gone, but did we have to go so far with the sex-posi stuff? I don’t see that that has done much for women or society, and men have just adapted to the marketplace.

    As I said recently, the TV media has just ‘discovered’ sexting between school kids in the UK. I’m sure that it and the associated sex acts have been going on for some years. I think that that is kind of sad, that kids don’t get to be kids. just mini-sexbots without self-value.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Athol Kay has built a small financial empire with MMSL due entirely to this not being true.

    The Stats, per ABC News:

    Very Satisfied with Sex Life:

    Married/committed under 30 77%
    Singles under 30 53%

    Frequency of sex:

    Never: 23% Unmarried, 1% Married

    Few times past month: 26% Unmarried, 43% Married

    2-3 times per week: 19% Unmarried, 36% Married

    4 times per week: 7% Unmarried, 7% Married

    http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/959a1AmericanSexSurvey.pdf

    So when a man agrees to, or suggests living together it impresses her with two things – either he is an Alpha who she’s won over so completely that he’s showing signs he’s ready to commit to exclusivity with her, or he’s predominantly a beta with no better propositions than to settle into living with what he believes is his ‘sure thing’ sex.

    Your alphas:

    “Older singles (age 30 and up), for their part, are much less likely to be involved in a sexual relationship (29 percent) and much less satisfied with their sex lives. As noted above, older single men are more likely to have cheated on a spouse or partner; and three in 10 of them have paid for sex. Older single men report a lifetime median of 12 sex partners (and an average of 34), the highest for any group; older single women, by contrast, report a median of four partners (and an average of eight).”

    Alphas of your description are unsuitable for LTRs, cohabitation or marriage.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Cohabitation can work if the two individuals are each mature, stable and ready for a healthy relationship leading quickly to marriage and family. They should also be very much in love, not just looking for convenience or sex. Otherwise, the risks are numerous to both sides.

    My husband and I moved in with the acknowledgement “this is a precursor to marriage,” but since we had only known each other for two months, and that was mostly long-distance, getting married right away would have been too big of a leap. We got engaged 4 months after moving in together, and got married 6 months after the engagement. We were not girlfriend/boyfriend for long, because from the beginning we saw each other as much more than that.

    We did have some issues in the beginning when we first moved in together, but we solved them, and after the first two months we haven’t had anything like that since. It’s the time to sort out any issues, incompatibilities and deal-breakers. I would say you can tell pretty quickly, within 6 months, whether it’s going to fall apart or turn into a good marriage. But maybe that’s because we had both taken the red pill.

  • Just1Z

    p.s.
    sorry you guys have had your own Dunblane. sounds similar to an incident here 16 years ago. horrific.

  • Escoffier

    The fact that he was able to quit a job that even he admits was low paying does not even suggest, much less prove, that the majority of married men aren’t getting laid. Like I said, even if the % is 20%–hell, even if it’s 10%, or 5%, or 1%–the hard numbers would still be so high that he could easily make a nice living dispensing such advice.

    The majority of people are not in counselling or therapy, yet the absolute numbers are high enough to support hundreds of thousands of psychologists and psychiatrists–much less one Athol.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The use of Athol as proof of the state of marriage in the US is insulting to intelligence and common sense. What we can say is that Athol has a readership that finds his advice useful, and some portion of that readership purchases his book.

      There are 55,200,000 married men in the U.S. Let’s generously assume Athol has sold 500K copies of MMSL Primer. That is .009% of the married male population in the US.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    My grammar is atrocious and getting worse by the day… ugh. I think I’m still in a daze about the shooting. What sickness prompts someone to open fire on young children?

  • J

    @Hope

    Psychosis, I’m guessing. The voices in his head told him to do it. Bad brain chemistry. There’s nothing here we’ll be able to understand. If they can ever get him on meds that make him lucid enough to understand what he did, he may not even recognize himself in today’s events.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    IIRC, there are Kinsey numbers that show married people surely do have the most frequent sex, over cohabitors, and both are way ahead of singles. (I think there is *one* age block where the cohabitors have the advantage at the high end.) Yeah, there are large numbers of people who are married and cut off, and Athol surely has a decent market, but the market of people who don’t need his help is much bigger.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Awesome post.

    Girls, do this for a man who loves you, or in moderate amounts for one who is showing interest as a way to ramp up the emotional connection.

    Don’t do it on someone who has no (or not enough) interest in you (possibly because he’s out of your league or doesn’t see you as gf material) and then complain that men don’t appreciate such things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Han Solo

      Girls, do this for a man who loves you, or in moderate amounts for one who is showing interest as a way to ramp up the emotional connection.

      Don’t do it on someone who has no (or not enough) interest in you

      I didn’t even think of saying this, thank you! Yes, this is very important! The calibration is key – do too much of this relative to the level of male investment and you will be nothing but a pest. He doesn’t want to hole up with you during a snowstorm. On the other hand, if he’s showing steady interest and you dig him, don’t hold back! Do a little more than you feel comfortable with, and see what kind of response you get. If it’s positive, keep going!

  • JP

    Well, this guy apparently planned for a year back in 1927 when he apparently tried to blow up an entire elementary school.

    At least today’s guy didn’t have unlimited access to the school like this school board treasurer did.

    He was probably listening to the voices, too.

    “The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–11 years of age [1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history and the third-deadliest non-military massacre in U.S. history, behind the Oklahoma City bombing, and 9/11.

    The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55 who died in a car bomb he set off after he drove up to the school as the crowd gathered to rescue survivors from the burning school.

    On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. He used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his fragmentation-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school’s south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    Rgoltn, shallow would be expecting a man to make a certain amount of money or more or something along those lines. Don’t we all test a partner as we date them to see if we can be happy being married to them? You make it sound like I’m playing a game. I feel I’m just being smart. I know what type of guy I will and will not be happy with, and I’m doing what needs to be done to make sure I end up marrying the right man for me. I think a big reason divorce happens (especially when it happens within the first few years of marriage) is because people are marrying the wrong people for themselves. They aren’t waiting nearly long enough and they aren’t giving themselves the opportunity to meet more people. I see friends of mine getting married to people they barely know, because they think “Oh I’m in my prime now, must get married and have babies now!” That is if they don’t have babies first and feel they “should get married” because if you get knocked up, it’s the best thing to do when most often than not, it’s not the best thing to do because their relationship usually struggles more than what it’s worth or they end up divorced.

    I don’t know why married people look down on single people and act superior. I see so many people my age in marriages I can tell they don’t want to be in afterall. Why would I make those same mistakes?

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    Also I’m happy to say that after 5 years of living together, we still have great sex every day. Sometimes twice.

  • JP

    “Also I’m happy to say that after 5 years of living together, we still have great sex every day. Sometimes twice.”

    That’s just, uh, [insert appropriate word here]. I’m not sure what word adequately describes this news.

    Is it Internet etiquette to offer congratulations?

    I’m also not sure what emotion I’m supposed to be experiencing here.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    I don’t need a congrats, I’m just saying what these studies and conclusions based on the studies are saying doesn’t necessarily ring true for everyone.

  • Just1Z

    not for me either Ashley

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Alphas of your description are unsuitable for LTRs, cohabitation or marriage.

    You’re only making my points for me.

    Glad to be of help :)

    Cad Awareness is an important part of my curriculum.

  • GudEnuf

    It’s .9%, not .09%.

  • GudEnuf

    Not .009%.

  • Sassy6519

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%

    500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

  • doomwolf

    @Hope

    Today’s events make a good argument for the existence of God, because f God exists, Heaven exists, and is Heaven exists, Hell exists. I think I’ve got a pretty solid guess as to which one of the two the gunman is in now.

  • Passer_By

    Ugghhh. Youse broads are confirming the stereotypes about broads and math. It’s either .009, or it’s .9%, but it’s not .009%

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ugghhh. Youse broads are confirming the stereotypes about broads and math. It’s either .009, or it’s .9%, but it’s not .009%

      Whoopsie. My bad for adding in the % sign. It’s .9%. The difference is completely immaterial to the argument, the point stands.

  • INTJ

    Apparently Susan and Sassy can’t compute percentages…

  • Sassy6519
  • Sassy6519

    Wait, scratch that.

    I forgot to move the decimal two places over. Haha. I was wrong.

    *giggles*

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Whoopsie. My bad for adding in the % sign. It’s .9%. The difference is completely immaterial to the argument, the point stands.

    Not really immaterial. 1% is huge. If he managed to sell 500,000 books, we would need to take that pretty damn seriously.

    Of course, he obviously hasn’t sold anywhere near that many books…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      1% is huge.

      Not in this case! Rollo’s claim was that Athol’s readership proves that married men are not having sex. What we can say is that at the very most, 1% of married American men have gone online to seek advice about their sex lives and found Athol. I’m sure there are many more who haven’t, but Rollo’s claim is ludicrous.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    I think it’s a real stretch to claim that every married man who went online to seek such advice ended up buying Athol’s book. That would make Athol the greatest Internet marketer of all time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think it’s a real stretch to claim that every married man who went online to seek such advice ended up buying Athol’s book. That would make Athol the greatest Internet marketer of all time.

      Haha, true. I have no idea about MMSL, but every day 65% of my traffic is first-time visitors. The vast majority of people are hit and run.

  • Passer_By

    Having said that, I have no idea what the underlying argument is about, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering to correct anyone. lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Having said that, I have no idea what the underlying argument is about, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering to correct anyone. lol

      It’s because someone on the internet is wrong. This can not stand!

  • JP

    What’s an Athol?

  • Feelist

    Isn’t Rollo married? He’s probably talking about his marriage when he says that most marriages are sexless. Anyway, I wouldn’t put much stock in what a PPB(Professional Pussy-Beggar, aka PUA) has to say about anything. They’re like the male version of femnisim, except they can beg for sex while making it appear stylish.

  • Feelist

    ” What’s an Athol?

    Some dude on the internet with a blog. He gives advice to married men. Don’t know the URL.

  • Paul Rivers

    It’s nice to hear some advice about…you know…actually making people happy.

    I’d say as a guy, there’s 2 things that freak me out about marriage, after the “I do want to marry this girl” point –

    1. That we’re going to get married and the fun will die off and stop. Whether it’s sex, conversation, or her making an effort, or the start of nagging or manipulation, etc etc etc…if we have something good going right now, will simply getting married change all that?

    2. Wedding hell. It seems like weddings have become more and more a chance for the girl to stress out, have lots of breakdowns over insignificant details, spend a huge amount of money – and just generally put a ton of stress on the relationship that makes you wonder – if I go through 3 months of hell that she causes, are my own feelings for her going to change?

    I don’t have answers for these questions, these are just the things I would be concerned about with a girl that I would want to be dating forever.

  • Mike M.

    @Susan:

    You realize that a woman who does even half what you recommend will have a man wrapped around her little finger, don’t you? :-)

    WRT Athol Kay, I seem to recollect that he figures his readership is half female. And I suspect a fair number of the men are single – but interested in Courtship/Marriage Game, not PUA Game. The whole Game world is fissioning, and people like Athol are at Ground Zero.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    About Connecticut

    In the ’80s we had a rash of standoffs that ended with the police shooting the guy. They finally started calling it “suicide by police”. We don’t seem to get as many these days. Maybe the police have learned how to avoid doing the dirty work. Maybe it has stopped being a fashionable way to do it. Maybe insurance companies are invoking their suicide clauses.

    I think these mass killings may be something along the same lines. They are cowards who can’t pull the trigger on themselves without the buildup of killing helpless people.

    I recommend expunging mass shooters’ names from all public records and flushing their ashes down the toilet.

  • Underdog

    @Feelist

    Rollo is not a PUA. Stop making yourself look like an idiot.

  • INTJ

    By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males? I did sign up for OKCupid a few weeks ago, but promptly stopped bothering with it after searches done through a dummy account showed that there was a plethora of high quality guys on there that I would be competing against, in contrast to the low percentage of high quality females that I would be competing for.

    However, I did just notice an e-mail telling me my profile made the cut for the higher rated profiles, which means they’ll match me with other high rated profiles.

    Should I start actively messaging women there? Or is that futile and should I simply ignore OKCupid (unless someone happens to message me)?

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    I just did a search of men for women and women for men on OkCupid and there’s a 3:1 male to female ratio. You can do these yourself and count if you want to spend the time. On pof you can search and it gives the total number and I have found about a 2.5 to 1 ratio, depending on the age.

    So, I would recommend trying it a bit but don’t waste too much time on it. The girls get tons of emails and can be really picky.

    Girls should all be doing online dating for this very reason–massive numbers in your favor.

    I have reasonable success with it. I met the girl I’m kind of dating from online so it’s possible. They just need one and you might be it but there will be 2.5 similar guys to you for every girl looking for your type so it’s a bit of getting lucky.

    This girl said I look better in real life than in my pics so I think I need to maybe get better pics or learn better how to approach in bars. Social circle is a great way to meet girls too since it gives them more chance for you to shine.

  • Joe

    @Han Solo

    Girls should all be doing online dating for this very reason–massive numbers in your favor.

    Uh… doesn’t this fail the “What if everybody did it?” test? ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      Uh… doesn’t this fail the “What if everybody did it?” test?

      Nobody goes there anymore; it’s too crowded.

      Yogi Berra

  • HanSolo

    @Joe

    Yes….

    But they should anyway so that we can have 3:1 ratios. lol

  • doomwolf

    @ Paul Rivers #98
    I will cosign that. Also, when you’re in your early 20’s, the concept of “till death do you part” is kind of scary, atleast to me – given modern life expectancy, that’s a a *really* long time, and if you pick wrong, well, there are many possibilities as to what happens & they all suck.

    @ Dinkey Pawson #100
    I second. I would advocate dumping their ashes at sea, or feeding them to pigs, to ensure there is simply no physical location that anyone could turn into a pilgrimage site or anything. Also, pressure should be brought to bear on the media not to publish the names or photographs of the gunmen, so they can’t achieve any notoriety, they just get remembered as “some psycho nutjob.”

  • Bully

    If women outnumber men as a whole to begin with and a much larger men are in prison, and if bars are sausage fests as I’ve heard people claim, and there are 2.5 men for every woman on dating sites.. that begs the question as to where the hell the women are.

  • Bully

    *much larger amount of men

  • HanSolo

    @Bully

    That’s what I’ve asked myself. I did go Salsa dancing last night and there were probably about 30% more women than men out of a group of about 50 total people.

    The other place is college campuses, obviously. Yoga classes. Wine tasting, maybe?

    I’ve asked myself that often and I think a lot of women must not be going out that much. Or maybe they’re in coffee shops and restaurants?

    Great question. Where are the women?

  • HanSolo

    They’re all at chick flicks. ;)

  • HanSolo

    Or drowning their sorrows downing tubs of Häagen Dazs. :D

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    According to the latest survey, yoga is 80 % female, 20 % male (and half those are Sensitive New Age Guys). It’s not something that you can just jump into though and start raking in the hotties. I should probably write a guide for good behaviour in the yoga studio.

    Many women are subsumed in the rat-race, or sitting at home knitting. I bought a pretty toque today.

  • Bully

    Yoga wouldn’t be a bad idea except I’m weight training 6 days a week as it is and adding yoga on top of that seems like a bad idea. Powerlifting women.. yeah, they don’t exist, Not at the four gyms I’ve been to, anyhow.

    Dance.. hmm, I may try that in the spring. I’m really tall and gangly, though Just about Thurston Moore/Joey Ramone tall, and really uncoordinated when it comes to moving around. Being tall isn’t such a bonus when you look like a goof.

    Even at my corporate rat race the women are all like 35 minimum; wouldn’t be too bad if I was older, but I’m barely turning 30. Maybe it’s because I’m not in sales – that’s where most of the hotties I’ve seen pass by are.

    Sucks that the ratio online is so bad, but it’s still the best out of most my options, it seems, so I might have to focus my attention there.. Oh well – I just bought myself a Christmas present (a 72-key digital piano) and spent about three hours practicing tonight, so I guess dating will have to wait a little longer till the spring while I work through my latest obsession. :P

  • Höllenhund

    Athol is promoting his stuff specifically to married men. Do I even need to point that out?

  • Höllenhund

    Jezebel is predictably milking the CT shooting for all its worth. Of course, the one thing they, or any other similar media outlet, won’t mention is that the shooter is one of the typical and predictable male products of the matriarchy. Such killers are dime-a-dozen in matriarchies. Just check out the news reports, both archived and recent, from Liberia and the Congo. Guns, video games etc. have nothing to do with it.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    They’re all at chick flicks.

    Twilight events too. ;)

    About the massacre
    I had refused to read anything about it but general comment. Is just too much, I don’t think I will be able to sleep again or stop crying ever, if I start to see the names and faces of the victims… poor children :(

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @INTJ
    Online sites are like therapists if one doesn’t work you should keep trying IMO. I tried half a dozen before hitting the jackpot so to speak.

  • chris

    “Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one”

    What culture are you living in?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one”

      What culture are you living in?

      One very different from the expectations some men here have! If you’re just tuning in, we’ve been debating whether girlfriends should clean their boyfriend’s apartments as a sign of MMV. I say no way, the guys say yes please. I’ve never heard of it IRL, aside from some reports here.

  • VD

    I mean, what do we have to do? Homeschool?

    Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered, not literally, but unfortunately, in some cases it fits both ways.

    What can you do?

    What the Israelis do, arm the teachers. If, instead of wasting money on guidance counselors, psychologists, and a small army of administrators, schools invested in arming each teacher with a S&W revolver, putting them through a training course, and hiring two ex-military to serve as entrance security combined with a sniper team to provide overwatch of the entrance, there would never again be a school shooting with more than 2-3 victims. The schools can afford it, but anti-gun ideology and the preference for the illusion of safety trumps actual security.

    The fortress approach doesn’t work. It’ s hardly news; the Chinese learned that with the failure of the Great Wall.

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%. 500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered, not literally, but unfortunately, in some cases it fits both ways.

      I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

      Also, I’d point out that the blogs appear to be heavily populated by home schooling moms, who are alarmingly available for chit chat during the school day. At least in schools teachers are not free to surf the net and debate gender issues during class.

  • Rich

    This article should be titled “How to set the perfect trap”.

  • Escoffier

    My wife’s first comment was, “The solution is obvious but no one will even mention it: arm the teachers.”

    Our school is very good, no lobotomies being delivered but homeschooling may yet happen for us anyway.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    Why there is a war going on :

    Basically, men hate women. All men. The boy next door so to speak hates women every bit as much as Ted Bundy. Not all will murder. But not because they think more highly of women, because they fear jail. These different strata of men serve to make women think some men aren’t like that, which is a lie. So we keep hoping and searching to find the right one.

    We keep on providing sex and love and domestic labor and money and every other cookie that womankind has to offer. Guess who that benefits, yep men. If women would understand that a man is a man is a man across the board and all are exactly the same, we would stop trying to get blood (love) out of a turnip and then get on with our lives WITHOUT MEN.

    How can a man, any man, argue against that ? Throwing the MRA manual at her, won’t do. Being a good SO won’t do. It’s impossible to win against this. So what then ?

    MGTOW

  • Joe S.

    This might now sound popular but sometimes I think cleaning is a way for a woman to mark the territory so to speak. Given my workload, and the fact that I’m a fairly active person, cleaning usually gets bumped down the list. I’m by no means a sloppy person but ill sometimes skip the hard to reach places.

    My ex-girlfriend cleaned my apartment a few times (she also clandestinely placed clothes and toiletries in the apartment.) the first time my sister visited from college, and without knowing I was dating someone, instantly detected that a female had cleaned there. Don’t ask me how. It’s also happened other times. For what it’s worth quite a few of my friend girlfriends or ex’s cleaned or picked up some.

  • Iggles

    @ HanSolo:

    This girl said I look better in real life than in my pics so I think I need to maybe get better pics or learn better how to approach in bars. 

    Lol!

    I tell my friends all the time, straight guys on dating sites have the worst pictures! It’s endearing though! Most guys do not take pictures of themselves, so the ones they post are picture their friends or family of taken. Candid shots, etc. The guys who have good pictures are usually questionable – if they’re “too” groomed in their photos they ping my gaydar.

    The bonus is, without fail every guy I’ve gone out with that I met online looked way better in person :D

    I met my bf online and I told him when we met up I had no idea what he really looked like. He looked different in each photo, lol.

    @ Höllenhund:

    Athol is promoting his stuff specifically to married men. Do I even need to point that out?

    He also has a healthy female readership. There are plenty of women posting who bought the book and are doing FAP (female action plan) to improve their marriages.

    FTR, there are women who are trapped in sexless marriages too! I don’t envy anyone, male or female, who are high desire partners who are marriaged to a spouse with a low sex drive..

  • Sassy6519

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

    @ Iggles

    The bonus is, without fail every guy I’ve gone out with that I met online looked way better in person :D

    I think that most people look much better in person than they do in pictures. I’m not overly enthused about the way I look in pictures either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

      It was entirely my fault, and it’s not the first time I’ve typoed in that pesky % sign.

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus
    it’s all projection. if you want to see real, crazed hatred of a gender take a look at RadFemHub, or the Agent Orange files (he infiltrated and exposed the misandry of wingnut central). Some of those women are teachers FFS

  • Maggie

    @J
    “Look at this poor dumb bitch who wasted 6 years on a man who couldn’t commit:”

    Do you think this article is for real? She looks like a 60-year old man in drag. Her hands are very large for a woman.

  • Just1Z

    @Maggie
    yeah, I didn’t want to say, but that face!

    it might well be instructive to hear his side (should be be interested in giving it) about why he didn’t or wouldn’t commit. I mean maybe couldn’t is a possibility too. Was she an active part of his divorce?

    but six years is a lot of time to waste, whatever the underlying truth.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    I think that most people look much better in person than they do in pictures. I’m not overly enthused about the way I look in pictures either.

    True. I think it’s rare for a photograph to capture what a person looks like in real life. Professional photographers have the best equipment and are trained at capturing the best look. Amatuers, not so much – and the web is saturated iphone photos.

    Still, women take pains to post their most attractive photos. Guys by and large post whatever photos they have.

    @ Marellus,
    I think RadFems are too far gone to listen to logic. They’re in the same category as MRA exteremists. They’re married to their position and that involves hating the other gender.

    There’s no explaining it. You have to have serious issues and/or be a repressed homosexual to write something like this:

     If women would understand that a man is a man is a man across the board and all are exactly the same, we would stop trying to get blood (love) out of a turnip and then get on with our lives WITHOUT MEN.

    I find that woman’s comment disturbing.

    Rest assured, I don’t think any women on HUS would agree with this. Women and men need each other for humanity to survive. On a personal level, women and men thrive when they have a loving partner in their lives!

  • Ion

    Esco

    “My wife’s first comment was, “The solution is obvious but no one will even mention it: arm the teachers.”

    I think its sad that it never occurred to me to arm teachers, but that is a really good idea.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

    I know you hate anecdotes and all that, but I used attend the Berkeley Math Circle. There was a 13-year-old home schooled kid there who won the spelling bee in 2007. He was also brilliant at mathematics. Us high schoolers struggled to keep up with him.

    Also, I’d point out that the blogs appear to be heavily populated by home schooling moms, who are alarmingly available for chit chat during the school day. At least in schools teachers are not free to surf the net and debate gender issues during class.

    Yes, but those moms are still a very small minority of all home schoolers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      I know little about home schooling. Are there federal or state standards that must be met? Is there monitoring? What is to prevent a woman of fairly low intellect giving her own children a bad or at least incomplete education?

      I know that some home schoolers are part of networks that share curricula, pedagogy, etc. Others seem like rogue outposts.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    @Just1Z

    I know of Agent Orange. And I know that the rape-argument is the type argument that no man can win against a woman.

    It’s too emotional.

    It’s too confounding.

    Any dispassionate recitation of numbers to poo-poo it, will fail.

    As it must.

    We are headed for more acrimony between the sexes Just1Z.

    We are headed for more isolation between the sexes Just1Z.

    We are headed for an explosion of rapes Just1Z.

    We are going to see militant fringe philosophies on gender, go mainstream Just1Z.

    We are going to see a legislated separation of the sexes Just1Z.

    We are going to see a preponderance of mental disorders because of this Just1Z.

    Adolescent boys will become objects of inordinate fascination Just1Z.

    Suicides of young girls will skyrocket Just1Z.

    And the remedies applied, will only exacerbate this Just1Z.

    So when a man and a woman decides to become a couple, it will be seen for it really is, Just1Z :

    A Miracle.

  • Joe S.

    My company’s lead engineer was home schooled. His parents traveled often for work and it wouldn’t have made sense to put him in a traditional school just to transfer him repeatedly. He swears by it, and has ironclad mathematic skills and is overall a very intelligent, but the lack of social interaction as a child is pretty obvious. That’s where I would be concerned. There’s a lot that children pick up being in a large social setting. You can tell from the get-go that something is off with him.

  • doomwolf

    FWIW, very few of my HS teachers were people I would want to trust with a handgun in a room full of people. If something happened, they would have been hit first, or shot one of us by accident. I say this as someone in the military who has fired pistols before, and they are surprisingly hard to aim, even standing still on a range with no one shooting at you or screaming in terror.

    Armed security makes a certain amount of sense, though if you need armed guards outside each elementary school I fail to see how your country can then turn around and call itself the land of the free and the brave.

    Homeschooling-A friend of mine from uni was home-schooled up until Gr12. Extremely smart academically, but even after living in a house of guys for a couple years & working on Parliament Hill, his social skills aren’t the best (no where near as bad as when I met him though). I feel that home-schooling may give you good academic skills, but you aren’t the most well rounded person due to lack of social skills, understanding how to live with bureaucratic rules (my schools always had enough), lack of shared experiences with your peers, etc.

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus

    I appear to be slightly more optimistic than you, which is nice (and not very hard to achieve).

    I have never seen MRAs hitting the absolute levels of hate as seen in radfemhub. killing all males, castration etc. They appear to be cracked. AVFM is covering the University of Toronto feminist activity at the moment, you can see videos of the actions of what they get up to. The most negative ‘MRA’ site I’ve come across (not that I ever went on a determined hunt) is run by a guy accused by his divorcing wife of DV and paedophilia with his own kids. He was very lucky to be able to prove that it wasn’t true when the police investigated, she had planted photos on his PC, I don’t know how the proved they weren’t his – but he did (no penalty for her was forthcoming). Family court just took his guilt as read (in spite of the police report) and stripped him of everything including his kids. He has very little time for women, but I have never seen any hatred beyond don’t trust ‘em, and seeing no value in them beyond P & D sex, at which he is very ‘good’. I don’t blame him as I haven’t been put through what he has, I just don’t share that outlook or set of values.

    I don’t think that there is an MRA mirror of RadFemHub. But having said that, I have absolutely no interest in seeing one. It’s not how I feel and never has been.

    At the end of the day, the vast majority of the MRAs that I have ever come across would drop the flag as soon as the misandric laws and societal ways are dropped. They aren’t interested in revenge, but they aren’t going to be much interested in chivalry ever again.

    Having said all that, I really see the next apocalypse being financial. I’m sure that there will be attitude changes and laws between the sexes, but that is going to be a by-product of the rolling back of the social state rather than direct action. Nanny state will be broke, that will change many things, mostly for the worse for everyone. YMMV

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    It is true that there can be socialization problems with home-schooled kids, but it is also true that there is a lot of not-so-desirable socialization that goes on in schools, especially public schools. Some of it is due to herd behavior among other students, some of it due to the schools themselves (viz “self-esteem” inculcation.)

    I’m sure there are honorable exceptions, but by and large the administratiors of America’s public schools are a bad lot, as are the ed-school professors who have had such a malign influence on the field.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      as are the ed-school professors who have had such a malign influence on the field.

      Terrible. I’d rather see people not major in education at all – why not teach based on expertise derived from a college major? One of the young women closest to me went to teachers college and majored in Elementary Education. She is now teaching high school chemistry!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    VD…”What the Israelis do, arm the teachers”

    First problem is that the teachers here are, mostly, sort of different from the ones in Israel, the vast majority of whom have served in the military and who also consciously understand that their society faces mortal threats. Second problems is that it could never be done politically…consider the squeals from the liberal media when, in the wake of 9/11, the commonsensical idea of **arming airline pilots** was first mooted. Indeed, the Armed Flight Deck Officer program *still* faces pretty lame support, and a lot fewer pilots are armed than should be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      First problem is that the teachers here are, mostly, sort of different from the ones in Israel, the vast majority of whom have served in the military and who also consciously understand that their society faces mortal threats.

      Looking back on my own education, the idea of old Mrs. Allen willingly and successfully shooting an intruder with a cool head is preposterous. Nor could I imagine my focus group girls now teaching pulling it off.

      Sabras are a tough bunch, we don’t even come close.

  • doomwolf

    Further to that, if you go back through the history of various social movements in the late 19th/first half of the 20th century, there were a lot of teachers (women) heavily involved, and many became very influential in their respective organizations. Then feminism and the 1960’s came about, and since then it almost seems that a lot of teachers go into the field because they can’t do anything better. I have friends that have done teachers college and are passionate about the whole thing, but I know others that wouldn’t have come close to making the grade 60-70 yrs ago when it was one of the few professions open to women.

    This is not to say that the past was better, just a comment on the unexpected consequences of changing the labour market.

  • HanSolo

    @Iggles

    Well, since online dating is here to stay for me I will have to test my pictures on a female focus group. lol

    But, I do need to go beyond that too.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I know little about home schooling. Are there federal or state standards that must be met? Is there monitoring? What is to prevent a woman of fairly low intellect giving her own children a bad or at least incomplete education?

    No federal standards. State standards are fairly mild, and there’s nothing to prevent a woman from doing that. It’s a constitutional rights thing. Pennsylvania had the strictest standards, where my mom would have to fill out a form and give a detailed description of what all curriculum she was teaching. In Oklahoma, people can just pull their kids out of school (or not send them in the first place) without filling in anything. That is scary. In California, we filled out a form to create a “private school”.

    I know that some home schoolers are part of networks that share curricula, pedagogy, etc. Others seem like rogue outposts.

    Yeah it totally depends. In Pennsylvania, my mom started home schooling after my older brother’s elementary school ran out of stuff to teach him, and my mom knew a homeschooling parent. That homeschooling parent had built a nice network there which shared a lot of stuff.

    When we moved to Oklahoma, we only networked with other home schoolers for the purposes of social interaction during school hours. No academic networking, as almost all the home schoolers home schooled for religious rather than academic reasons.

    When we moved to California, at first we enrolled in a Home Study program, which meant we were technically public school students, but just were enrolled in an unconventional school. That ended when I needed to do higher level Calculus and Physics but the local school district didn’t have course numbers for those… That’s when we created the “private school”. Networking wasn’t as big an issue because the Bay Area has lots of academic activities in general (like the aforementioned Berkeley Math Circle), and having sent off my older brother to college, my mom pretty much had the whole thing worked out.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    @Just1Z

    I’m in a sour mood today. It happens. Nonetheless, your points have merit, and for all I know, the future will look like a Peter F Hamilton novel … barring a reality dysfunction … heh.

  • HanSolo

    @Esc, Ion, VD

    Last night I saw Piers Morgan on CNN go ballistic that it was all gun control’s fault. A total emotional blowup, totally devoid of any appeal to facts, the likes of which I think I’ve never seen in a “mainstream” host. Some of the opposing point of view presented facts about how in countries that banned guns (like the UK) that the murder rate went up and that the Colorado Batman massacre was at the one theater closeby that prohibited firearms. He had made up his mind and all facts be damned. He compared the murder rate in the US vs the UK, as opposed to comparing what happened in the UK after guns were banned.

    I don’t know enough about the risks either way to say whether teachers should be armed but I think it’s work looking into. If the risks of an outside assailant are greater than the risk of a teacher going on a rampage or having her gun stolen by a student who then uses it then it should be implemented.

  • Joe

    @VD (& Susan)

    Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered

    Hum… a commentary!

    But I have to challenge the notion that homeschooling is that bad. Consider that, if asked to imagine the best learning environment possible, most people would come up with something like: “safe and familiar surroundings, with a (very) small student to teacher ratio, with teachers who care about and concerned with the well-being of their students.”

    That’s a home and parents. Homeschooling may not be ideal for some, but by any objective measure, there’s no way public schooling is better. I doubt even private schooling is better.

  • HanSolo

    Also, I think there are some gun control laws that would make sense like a background check at gun shows and so on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, I think there are some gun control laws that would make sense like a background check at gun shows and so on.

      He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus
    I’m just plodding through ‘The Great North Road’ by him. I think that they’re about to encounter the …..ah, well we’ll see man.

    I read the neutronium alchemist trilogy – 7″ of great story telling, and have been trying to summon up the courage to tackle the void trilogy (on kindle, but still a whopper). I’ve been trying for a couple of years iirc.

    Iain M Banks and Neal Asher have been good. That old ‘who goes here?’ by Bob Shaw was funny though, the tale of ‘Warren Peace’ (not exactly like the tale by Tolstoi) – very different style from modern day stuff, great story telling.

  • Just1Z

    Crap day though, even from 3000+ miles away. With the political BS about to spring into action. young men’s suicide rates have trebled under feminism (since 1965) (female rate is pretty much unchanged). can we not look into where/how these psychos are being produced? something has gone wrong with society.

    UK tv has just shown that the US has 89 guns per 100 population, the UK has 6. but the US gun murder rate is only three times ours, putting them at #28 in the world rankings of killings per head of poulation. this would suggest to me that it isn’t just about the availability of guns. we have just about the toughest laws in the world, there is major police vetting before a licence is allowed, with very strict monitoring. I have no idea how many bad guys have guns though, gang killings are not widelt publicised here as long as they ‘only’ kill each other, the same with knife crime.

    numbers from UN ODC survey of 2007.

  • INTJ

    Also, if you home school, don’t move to Sweden or Norway. They’ll take away your kids. Even if you’re trying to leave the country. http://www.nkmr.org/english/dominic_johansson_case_home-schooled_boy_snatched_from_plane.htm

  • Abbot

    “rates have trebled under feminism ”

    Many “rates” of things have gone haywire over the past four or so decades. Slut rate, divorce rate, marriage rate, male college rate, female happiness rate…and on and on. Feminists ALWAYS rush in to do damage control whenever the mainstream media mentions feminism as possible contributor. These asshats are constantly running back and forth in front of the dike wall plugging leaks.

  • Cooper

    Great post!!!

  • Just1Z

    The last UK rampage that I remember hearing about was gun based at all.

    Cardiff van rampage leaves city in shock
    Police hold man, 31, and appeal for witnesses after woman is killed and 14 others injured
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cardiff-van-rampage-leaves-city-in-shock-8219566.html

    This was soon followed by reports of collisions in several locations, including Grand Avenue, Cowbridge Road West and the Leckwith Retail Park in west Cardiff.

    Witnesses said they saw “at least seven ambulances” and scores of police vehicles in the Ely area at the height of the incidents.

    Sub-postmaster Shady Taha, 29, had served two young girls moments before one of the incidents, on Grand Avenue, Ely. “I suddenly heard a bang. I looked out and, across the road, one girl was on the floor and the other girl was screaming. I heard a van speed off but I did not see it.”

    also
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9622426/Cardiff-hit-and-run-CCTV-shows-van-careering-across-four-lanes-of-traffic.html

    can we talk about crime stats of children raised by ‘heroic single moms’ yet? including the ones that kicked the father out of the house. boys do better with male role models in the home, in school and in society.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Terrible. I’d rather see people not major in education at all – why not teach based on expertise derived from a college major? One of the young women closest to me went to teachers college and majored in Elementary Education. She is now teaching high school chemistry!

    UT’s College of Natural Science has options in each degree designed for teachers. I have a friend who’s majoring in the Teaching option of Physics.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      UT’s College of Natural Science has options in each degree designed for teachers. I have a friend who’s majoring in the Teaching option of Physics.

      That’s a great idea. States vary a lot in their requirements, which probably drives a lot of this. In Massachusetts, a retiring physicist willing to work for free would not be able to get a job teaching physics, but a 21 year old ed major would.

  • Ion

    Hans

    “Well, since online dating is here to stay for me I will have to test my pictures on a female focus group. lol.”

    I forgot who it was around here who said to keep smiling pictures to a minimum, have one, or maybe a few. If you are using avatar pics on online dating, I personally like your previous avatar a little better than this one.

    Also, I noticed over a week that put up your pic, and wow you’re hot. I’ve complimented a couple of other people here in the past, and I didn’t want to seem like I was giving out false compliments to all. I really really doubt your pics are posing a problem. Maybe reevaluate what’s in your profile?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Han

      I agree with Ion. The pic just before this one was the best so far. I definitely recommend not smiling, and the other thing they say guys should do is not look directly at the camera. For women, it’s the opposite – look at the camera and smile.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    I’m not saying that I agree, but I know what the argument is. The reasoning goes like this:

    Based on this, we have an excuse to ban semi-automatic weapons. If we ban them, then, when someone uses a rifle, a shotgun, a pistol (whatever is not banned), then we have an excuse to ban those. And when those are banned…

    Yesterday, a crazed man in China stabbed 22 children with a knife. The gun ban simply doesn’t solve the problem, unless you define the problem as law-abiding, sane citizens having guns to defend themselves.

    I see flaws in this argument, because I also see the benefit of making killing harder. That increases safety, but not anywhere near completely. It provides an illusion of safety more than the reality.

  • Ion

    Hansolo

    “If the risks of an outside assailant are greater than the risk of a teacher going on a rampage or having her gun stolen by a student who then uses it then it should be implemented.”

    I agree. It would definitely be tricky. I don’t know much about gun laws and crime rates to offer an educated opinion, but Just1z has some interesting perspective about guns in the UK. Banning guns doesn’t mean crazy people/criminals don’t get guns, just that the rest of us are unarmed. Look at inner city neighborhoods, VERY few registered guns, very few normal people with guns, and crime rate is high. Isn’t it easy for a 17 year old kid in a gang to get an illegal automatic weapon, whether guns are banned or not?

    Another possible solution is that suburban schools do exactly what some low income high schools do, and put metal detectors at all entrances (hopefully with armed guards).

  • Ion

    Abbot

    “Many “rates” of things have gone haywire over the past four or so decades.”

    I looked at this chart, is feminism prominent in the top 20 countries, for example? I don’t really see a connection between feminism and gun violence.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think its sad that it never occurred to me to arm teachers, but that is a really good idea.

    Anyone remember “Going postal”? This only means that any teacher mad at the union/spouse/students/football team, will have the training to make the most damage in the shortest time before offing him/herself.
    I think a combo of screening before selling guns, better help for people with mental issues, awareness from family and friends about what signs to look for if they have a loved one planning to do something extreme and now were to get help (like the mom of the guy that was planning the shootings during Breaking Dawn), and some training on how to act when this things break hell for the common citizen, will work better,YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I’m still way more worried about our baby being hurt in a car accident or activity accident, which are extremely common, than in a school shooting, which is very rare. Every summer there are tragic stories of neglectful parents leaving their kids in the car, or kids climbing out of high windows, or falling into water and drowning.

    Homeschooling has its merits, but we are not interested in it. Better to get a smart kid into an environment surrounded by even smarter kids to challenge and compete with others, as well as get good socialization.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Thanks for the compliment and also your opinion on my 2 photos. I changed my pof picture to the one you liked better. We’ll see.

    As to the guns, I think making it harder to have assault rifles and requiring background checks would be good but I also think that having some armed responsible people in schools and malls and so on may make sense.

  • Abbot

    “a connection between feminism and gun violence”

    How many of these gone-postals and even serial killers come from relatively low-friction two-parent nurturing homes? Plenty of guns around prior to 1970…

  • doomwolf

    Here’s an article with some interesting stats re: firearms.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

    I find points 8 & 9 to be fairly obvious, but then again, I don’t belong to the NRA.

  • Sai

    @Just1Z
    “I think that that is kind of sad, that kids don’t get to be kids. just mini-sexbots without self-value.”
    +1

    Re: Connecticut WTF
    All my words are heartless, vengeful and/or bad-sounding and if I articulated any of my thoughts you might get upset and want me off the site.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    Very nice article all around. You do remember that the late (but not lamented) Doug1 cited that same National Marriage Project survey from ’02 in support of his unorthodox lifestyle? :mrgreen:

    This was interesting:

    6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.

    Typically, this is a source of criticism of single women around here (i.e. unrealistic expectations). Also, getting involved with guys whom they may not intend to marry are considered strikes against them (i.e. not wife-material). Perhaps the same could be said for men with similar attitudes and track records?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Spree shooters tend not to have criminal pasts so any stricter gun laws may not prevent anything. What we should be worrying about is why these people snap and kill everyone. Look at China, they had 20 stabbed with a knife so banning guns isn’t the answer at all..

  • Abbot

    “Perhaps the same could be said for men with similar attitudes and track records?”

    Women are free to say that (and act on it) and anything else they want to say. And no one would care.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    Probably not, for the most part. I think a good argument could be made WRT licensing/registering those kinds of firearms at the federal level. However, should the gov’t attempt to confiscate millions of such firearms retroactively, most of which were legally manufactured and legally purchased by law-abiding citizens, it’s not unreasonable to expect a strong voter reaction.

    A better question to ask might be: Why would a divorced mother own 3 such firearms while she had an apparently disturbed 20-year-old living under the same roof? Nobody can ask her that question, unfortunately.

    It’s too early to know all the details, but the Gun Control Act of 1968 already prohibits certain people (i.e. drug addicts, mentally ill) from purchasing firearms. That’s what background checks are for. Is it too much to suggest that perhaps people on antidepressants and other psychopharmaceuticals be added to that list?

  • also intj

    HanSolo, I admit I preferred the smiling photo.

    Society’s Disposable Son, I also admit your avatar and handle trouble me. I had a friend who hung himself years ago and think of him each time I see your posts. If you are at all suicidal, please reach out for help.

    Megaman, as one of the few Red State folks here, I think that a law denying gun sales to people taking antidepressants would never pass and in the unlikely event it were to, would result in those in need of antidepressants not getting them.

  • also intj

    HanSolo, I agree about closing the gun show loophole. That is a huge one.

  • Lokland

    As a non-American.

    Is it too much to ask that guns simply not be available to the public, period?

    Obviously hunting rifles/shotguns are acceptable (as they are here) but they are heavily regulated.

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    As an entirely outside observer, its possible to live in a country without weapons and not be constantly afraid.

    I think if this was attempted, the retro-active removal would be problematic.

    Note: Certain laws here enable civilians to get guns but pistols (concealable) are generally not available. Semi-auto’s are the same.

    PS.
    This should never have happened.

  • Lokland

    On homeschooling.

    As a general rule,

    its not equal in quality to an average education.

    Private school, if affordable, is most definitely the way to go.
    Possible to avoid the PC public school whilst getting quality education.
    (Although there are a few private schools that really suck.)

  • HanSolo

    @Susan and Also INTJ

    Thanks for the feedback on the photos.

  • Mike C

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%. 500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    I think we need a study to determine which group can better calculate percentages, homeschooled or conventionally schooled. :)

    Go smart girls! (Jusy playin…)

  • Mike C

    By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males?

    INTJ,

    Just my opinion, but unless you are good-looking and/or look really good “on paper” (height, education, career, etc.) I think online isn’t the way to go. I think most guys are still going to have much better success with either social circle connections or cold approaches than online.

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males?”

    Your 5′ 5”.

    You’ll be excluded by 95% of women based on that criteria alone when they search.

    You will be able to see all you want.

    They won’t even know your there.

  • Escoffier

    The more elite a private school is, the more PC it is.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    What difference does it make? Semi-automatic weapons aren’t really that much more destructive than manual action weapons…

  • INTJ

    Wow doomwolf and Lokland, glad I’m not the only gun-control supporter on HUS. :)

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Lockland

    I understand there was talk in Britain of banning knives over a certain length. Somebody pointed out that the proposed length was shorter than many cooking knives.

    Once you start down that road there is no end to it.

  • Anacaona

    Once you start down that road there is no end to it
    Doesn’t England has a “stabbing” problem? The problem is not in the weapon but the person that uses it. I’m sure you can ban all of them and people will start to slap themselves to death, and what they would do? Mandatory padded gloves?

  • Lokland

    @Dinkey

    Uhmm.

    I live in Canada.
    People don’t have guns.
    No one has ever suggested banning cooking knives.

    Its kinda like me saying that because Americans can have guns people will eventually start walking around in combats armed with assault rifles.

    S
    T
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    N

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Anacaona

    Exactly.

    “God made men. Sam Colt made ‘em equal, more or less.”

    I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    Not surprising we both live above the border.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Lockland

    There really was a proposal about knives in Britain. The YOBs have really gotten out of hand.

  • Lokland

    @Dinkey

    Yes.

    People have also proposed other things that are ridiculous
    rad fems- kill all male babies
    dictator- kill all the X people

    When crazy happens people stop it or ignore it, depending on how it affects them.

    As an outside observer on the situation I am suggesting that America’s pro-gun stance is similar to the manosphere-all wimminz are evil stance or rad fem- all men are evil stance.

    The logic sounds really good until you stop drinking the koolaid.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Then don’t drink the koolaid.

    The problem isn’t the weapons, it’s the people.

    People focus on the gun instead of the shooter because it’s easier. You can take a dangerous object away from a small child. It’s easy to imagine doing the same with adults.

    In practice it not so simple. Adults are routinely trusted with all sorts of dangerous devices, like aircraft, cars, knives, knitting needles, large rocks… There’s no end to the list.

    We have 300 million odd, some very odd, people in this country. Only a very few of them do these things. That’s one reason why they make the news.

    This country was founded on the idea that we can trust most of our fellow citizens. When it turns out that we can’t, we deal with it. If we are going continue to treat our fellow citizens as free adults, we need another approach besides banning weapons.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?
    Not the point, specially now.

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Its kinda like me saying that because Americans can have guns people will eventually start walking around in combats armed with assault rifles.

    Not too far-fetched a strawman. I’ve heard libertarians suggest people should be allowed to own RPGs…

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Not surprising we both live above the border.

    No that’s Cooper. But I’m from the Bay Area, which is close enough, politically. :D San Francisco actually tried to ban concealable firearms, but the law got thrown out by the courts because regulation of weapons falls under state jurisdiction, not local jurisdiction.

  • VD

    I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

    (shakes head) Susan, you’re so good at going to the studies when it’s an area with which you’re familiar, and yet you don’t do so when it’s an area with which you’re not. In a very large study utilizing the IOWA results some years ago, homeschoolers were THREE years ahead of their public schooled peers and two years ahead of their private school peers. It was in the Washington Post, if you want to dig for it. They are also massively overrepresented as National Merit scholars and semifinalists, and are heavily sought by the elite schools. I think if you look into the matter, you’ll find you have it precisely backward.

    My eldest read Cicero’s Republic at 11 and started trig at 12. The homeschooling curricula Stickwick and I are putting together will provide 200-level college material for 13-15 year olds in economics, physics, and astronomy. Getting poor educations? They are the new educational elite!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      (shakes head) Susan, you’re so good at going to the studies when it’s an area with which you’re familiar, and yet you don’t do so when it’s an area with which you’re not.

      That reflects the differential in my interest level re various topics. I often spend hours researching topics, reading the studies, etc., because I want to understand the business of mating better. I have no particular interest in education, and I did say up front that I don’t know much about home schooling. However, I’ve done a bit of work in order to respond to your comment intelligently.

      According to the Rudner study, 1998, the test results for home-schooled students are indeed well above the mean for public school students:

      This report presents the results of the largest survey and testing program for students in home schools to date. In Spring 1998, 20,760 K-12 home school students in 11,930 families were administered either the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS) or the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP), depending on their current grade. The parents responded to a questionnaire requesting background and demographic information. Major findings include: the achievement test scores of this group of home school students are exceptionally high–the median scores were typically in the 70th to 80th percentile; 25% of home school students are enrolled one or more grades above their age-level public and private school peers; this group of home school parents has more formal education than parents in the general population; the median income for home school families is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States; and almost all home school students are in married couple families. Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. The report clearly suggests, however, that home school students do quite well in that educational environment.

      However, I noted in the study that includes the stats cited in your comment, only 1% of the college freshmen studied were home-schooled, compared with 4% of the children in the U.S. Why such a differential? (http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homeschool.pdf).

      Reich at Stanford has written about the Rudner Study in arguing for the need to regulate home schools:

      Because home schooling regulations are either so minimal or so little enforced, many parents do not notify local educational officials when they decide to home school. Recall that ten states do not even require parents to register their home schools. A great deal of home schooling occurs “under the radar”, so to speak, so that even if local officials wished to test or monitor the progress of home schooled students, they wouldn’t even know how to locate them. Researchers and public officials have, quite literally, no sense of the total population of home schooled students. This is the primary obstacle to studying home schooling.

      A further concern is that an appalling amount of the research conducted on home schooling and given publicity in the media is undertaken by or sponsored by organizations whose explicit mission is to further the cause of home schooling. Even this very volume contains several chapters by advocates – Brian Ray and Scott Somerville. Of course, that research is conducted by persons whose pay comes from organizations dedicated to promoting home schooling is no reason to reject the findings out of hand. I would suggest, however, that we treat the findings of their research on home schooling in the same way the people treat the research on nicotine addiction funded by tobacco companies: with a very large dose of skepticism.

      Consider one of the most widely publicized studies in the home school research literature, the 1999 report by Lawrence Rudner entitled “Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home Schooled Students in 1998.” Rudner’s study was funded and sponsored by the Home School Legal Defense Assocation. It analyzed the test results of more than 20,000 home schooled students using the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, and it was interpreted by many to find that the average home schooled student outperformed his or her public school peer. But Rudner’s study reaches no such conclusion, and Rudnerhimself issued multiple cautionary notes in the report, including the following: “Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.”

      Rudner used a select and unrepresentative sample, culling all of his participants from families who had purchased curricular and assessment materials from Bob Jones University. Because Bob Jones University is an evangelical Christian university (a university which gained a national reputation in the 1980s for its policy of forbidding interracial dating), the sample of participating families in Rudner’s study is highly skewed toward Christian home schoolers.

      Extrapolations from this data to the entire population of home schoolers are consequently highly unreliable. Moreover, all the participants in Rudner’s study had volunteered their participation. According to Rudner, more than 39,000 contracted to take the Iowa Basic Skills Test through Bob Jones, but only 20,760 agreed to participate in his study. This further biases Rudner’s sample, for parents who doubt the capacity of their child to do well on the test are precisely the parents we might expect not to volunteer their participation. A careful social scientific comparison of test score data would also try to take account of the problem that public school students take the Iowa Basic Skills Test in a controlled environment; many in Rudner’s study tested their own children.

      Personally, I have no dog in the fight, and believe that home schooling could be excellent – I have no doubt that I would have provided a top notch experience for my own kids, though they got that elsewhere in our case. I question more the lack of standards and regulation, and the freedom parents have in stopping the education without justification if they so choose.

      You may recall the story here of Nathan Harden – his homeschooling fizzled when he was around 17, IIRC. He went on to get his GED, do a bunch of odd jobs for several years, and then went to Yale on his third try. Clearly a smart guy who was not subjected to much structure along the way.

      It would be interesting to see a study that followed the stories of those high scoring home-schooled teenagers to see what they wound up doing with their lives, and one that looked at what percentage of home schooled kids do receive a college education, and where.

  • VD

    Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

    It’s not the mistake. Everyone I know, including me, has forgotten to multiply by 100 when adding the percentage sign. It’s just that if you’re going to correct someone, you had damn well better get it right. But then, getting “corrected” by commenters who clearly have no idea what I’m talking about is one of my pet peeves.

    I recently had an economist claim I was wrong about something, so I cited some hard numbers from the recent Federal Reserve report, (which I’d merely mentioned originally), to support my assertion. He then claimed my numbers were wrong and linked to a graph as evidence… a graph of the numbers in the very Fed report to which I’d referred in the first place. Sometimes, it becomes very, very clear that what purports to be dialectic is merely rhetoric; some people are simply shameless bullshitters.

  • VD

    I’ve heard libertarians suggest people should be allowed to own RPGs…

    They should. And forget “allowed”, they have an absolute and unalienable right to do so. Consider this: if guns, and not people, kill people, why doesn’t anyone who supports gun control demand the disarmament of the government and police people? Especially when history clearly shows that government and police people have killed more people than all the wars, civil wars, and private crime COMBINED.

    Disarm the government and police people first, and then we can talk about private people giving up their weapons.

  • Lamia

    This post is beautiful. I would seriously adore doing those things for the man I love – now, just have to find him!

    On a semi-related note, this was a comment posted in a reddit forum that I wanted to share because it just floored me with how beautiful and romantic it is. I would love to get the HUS guys take on it – is this the way most men think?

    “Men want to “provide” for women. It’s just in our nature. Our goal is to provide a emotional/physical/financial force field around you so that you can live the best life you want to live and know that if something bad happens it will be OK because we got your back. Don’t get me wrong, we want you to be independent without us, too, it’s just that we want that sense of independence and individualism to thrive because we’ve provided an additional foundation of support for you to grow on. Remind us of how we enable that for you. It’s affirmation for us. “I feel so supported by you – I can do anything on my own, but knowing I have you in my life and that you have my back makes gives me that extra confidence.”

    Thoughts?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ also intj

    Not suicidal just in a dark place…

    @ Lamia

    My thoughts exactly

  • VD

    And, so as not to remain entirely off-topic, let me add that this a very apt post. It is always important to remind women that a relationship is a two-way street and that they are not the only option available. Men understand that they have to attract women and keep attracting them to maintain a healthy relationship. Fewer women do, because no one is teaching them this.

    A wife who is not also a lover risks finding herself replaced in the latter category, and possibly the former as well. I rather liked “Find a first edition of his favorite adult book”. A leather-bound special edition of Foucault’s Pendulum, signed by Eco, has particular pride of place in my library. It was a gift from my wife.

  • VD

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    No, it was written by men who fought a bloody war that was started by their government trying to seize their firearms. “The British are coming” is short for “The British are coming in force to seize the firearms and ammunition at Concord”.

    There will never be a time when it is not necessary for Man to defend himself against his governments.

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “No that’s Cooper.”

    I meant doomwolf.

    @VD

    “Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    No, it was written by men who fought a bloody war that was started by their government trying to seize their firearms.”

    These two statements are not incompatible.

    “There will never be a time when it is not necessary for Man to defend himself against his governments.”

    As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.

    None that I am aware of have needed to defend themselves.

    An interesting thought experiment would be to gather a group of say 100 Americans and ask how many have been required to defend themselves
    2. from the government
    3. from other citizens
    4. #2- with the use of a gun
    5. #3-with the use of a gun.

    Then tabulate all the years they have been alive (after 18) and come up with an analysis of how many times the typical American could be expected to defend themselves with or without a gun.

    I suspect that number would be quite low outside of Detroit.

    Note: Americans seem to view tax increases as an attack. Let’s define attack as one in which the person receives bodily harm beyond the level of a paper cut.

  • Ion

    “How many of these gone-postals and even serial killers come from relatively low-friction two-parent nurturing homes? Plenty of guns around prior to 1970…”

    Also happening after 1970:

    Crack-Cocaine

    Violence in media

    Violence in music

    More kids on ritalin and other drugs

    More kids and adults on recreational drugs

    Complete chaos re social order

    If you’re only referring to serial killers and mass shootings, I’m not sure. I doubt teens will shoot up their schools because of feminism, but I’m open to your ideas on this.

  • Ion

    “Anyone remember “Going postal”? This only means that any teacher mad at the union/spouse/students/football team, will have the training to make the most damage in the shortest time before offing him/herself.”

    That’s a good point Ana. Probably the best thing is to have metal detectors and armed guards in schools.

    Regarding psychiatric drugs, a good documentary I saw was The War on Kids, it’s insane the amount of kids around 7, particularly boys, who are on medication like ritalin. Here it is in full. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-tAQ56-gaA . The documentary claims that the kids in Columbine were probably on Ritalin-like drugs, and I’m sure that’s true for Lanza since he had Aspergers according to the article I read. Another good documentary is The Medicated Child. I think I’ll watch them again since I forgot a lot of the information.

    The doc also talks about how these drugs rewire the brain chemistry of kids growing into adults. How do you handle withdrawal/effectiveness issues of chemicals that have been running through your body since you were practically a toddler?

  • VD

    As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.

    That’s true. Of course, there are no shortage of historical Germans who could have said the same thing before 1941. And Spaniards before 1936. Let’s see how your government responds when Quebec finally votes for independence and secession before you conclude that it is completely safe, cuddly, and respectful of self-determination.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination. So, I suggest that even if the Canadian government is harmless, one would have to be criminally stupid to claim that the U.S. government is equally innocuous. This is particularly relevant given that there are at least two major secessionist trends presently at work in the USA.

  • JP

    “The documentary claims that the kids in Columbine were probably on Ritalin-like drugs, and I’m sure that’s true for Lanza since he had Aspergers according to the article I read.”

    The Columbine killer was sociopathic.

    The only thing that Ritalin would have done was to allow him to focus more on his objectives.

  • JP

    Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    A fighter jet in every garage.

    You never know when you might need to nuke a neighboring county.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    It’s not the mistake. Everyone I know, including me, has forgotten to multiply by 100 when adding the percentage sign. It’s just that if you’re going to correct someone, you had damn well better get it right. But then, getting “corrected” by commenters who clearly have no idea what I’m talking about is one of my pet peeves.

    I recently had an economist claim I was wrong about something, so I cited some hard numbers from the recent Federal Reserve report, (which I’d merely mentioned originally), to support my assertion. He then claimed my numbers were wrong and linked to a graph as evidence… a graph of the numbers in the very Fed report to which I’d referred in the first place. Sometimes, it becomes very, very clear that what purports to be dialectic is merely rhetoric; some people are simply shameless bullshitters.

    I already admitted that I made a mistake. I’m not going to sit here and flagellate myself over it.

    If you are implying that I am one of those supposed “shameless bullshitters”, I see no point in trying to persuade you otherwise. You’ve already formed your opinion.

    I get the feeling that some people want me to cast myself on an altar of mercy or something over this. Good grief.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Tax collection is, of course, ultimately backed by the coercive power of the state. Being armed and competent in self-preservation skills may become particularly important as the massive public pension funding shortfall—conservative estimates place it at over $4 trillion—could cause fiscal basket case states like California and Illinois to divert most of revenues to defined-benefit pensions for retirees (leaving active-duty emergency services facing tremendous budget shortfalls).

    More in keeping with VD’s comments, the Public Choice school of political economy can provide tremendous insight into the protection/shakedown racket mentality of the politico, the tendency for regulatory agencies to become “captured” by special interest groups, etc. We should also note who these violent rampage-type predators tend to attack: unarmed, helpless
    subpopulations.

  • Escoffier

    “Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination.”

    Oh, dear lord.

  • JP

    ““Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination.”

    Oh, dear lord.”

    Somebody was going to use the south as a source of wealth.

    It was either the North or Europe.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes
  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Self-determination would be marvelous! Let them secede or whatever.

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/09/18/obama-supporters-subsidize-romney-supporters-with-their-taxes-

    Let’s put the question of a tax rates to a national referendum and see what Americans really want. Allow voters in each county to decide whether to keep their state and federal taxes at their current level or to lower them. The catch is this: If you vote to lower your taxes then your county or state can’t take out any more money than it puts in. Perhaps this would make everyone happy. Red counties would get the lower taxes and vastly reduced services they want. And people in Blue counties (once they stop trying to give their money to people who don’t want to receive it) would keep more of their hard-earned cash, and enjoy vastly better-funded local services. Let’s give it a try.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Lokland…”As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.”

    Really? I’m pretty sure that Canada had a draft (conscription) in both WWI and WWII (googles…yes, it did, though pretty late in the war in both cases)…this may have been the right thing to do (clearly was in WWII, probably so in WWI) but is an exercise of government coercive power considerably beyond taxation.

    And taxation itself is not a “paper cut”, it IS an exercise of coercive power through seizure of property…again, necessary to some level, but potentially destructive and always inherently coercive.

  • Joe S.

    In line with what Hope posted, one of the first states in the media to petition for “self-determination” was Louisiana which absorbs 2 dollars of federal aid per dollar given. Clearly we’re holding them back.

  • VD

    If you are implying that I am one of those supposed “shameless bullshitters”, I see no point in trying to persuade you otherwise. You’ve already formed your opinion.

    No, not at all. I was merely off on a tangent about how the shameless bullshitters make it necessary to be careful when correcting someone else. Your mistake was clearly innocent. The problem is that there are a surprising number of people that shamelessly make “mistakes” in order to assume a superior posture. Not sure why this is, perhaps because they can get away with it in real life, they don’t realize that they can’t finesse it when it’s down in writing and easily referenced.

    Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    I’m all for it. But don’t be certain that is the reductio ad absurdum it is intended to be. As genetic science advances, it will soon be possible for individuals to hold biological vetoes over governments that are far more lethal than a mere nuclear bomb. That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.

    Some actual numbers for the USA versus Canada

    That 88.8 guns per 100 residents was pre-Obama. With the way guns have been selling since 2008, it may be at 100 by the time he leaves office.

  • Iggles

    Responding to the post:

    Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one, leaves a man without a reason to offer you commitment, much less marry. He may enjoy your relationship, and all the perks you provide, only to decide after several years that he just does not feel inspired to marry you. It’s so common it’s a pitiful cliche.

    Indeed, Susan!

    I’ve heard horror stories where woman have been with their live-in boyfriend for 5+ years without a ring, they give an ultimatum and he chooses to end the relationship all while professing how much he still loves/cares about her! The woman is now at least 5 years older (usually in her mid to late 30s by then) and starting over so-to-speak with a decreased SMV and smaller fertility window.

    I find those stories pretty scary. It’s easy to say, “well, she should have known better..” or “why didn’t she discuss marriage sooner?” but I don’t think anyone goes into those situations aware of how it will end! On both sides, there’s a failure of communication. Often the men are indecisive, and the woman holds on hoping he will come around.

    The women need to talk his actions – not his words – at face value. If he’s reluctant to change the status quo then that’s how he prefers it. If he’s not moving towards marriage then it means he doesn’t want to marry her. It’s not that he’s anti-marriage, because so many times after these long cohabitation relationships end the man meets another woman soon after who he does marry!

  • Iggles

    Typos, argh.. meant to say:
    The women need to take his actions *

  • Sai

    @JP
    “Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    A fighter jet in every garage.”
    I used to fantasize about something similar, only everybody didn’t have one, just me -sort of a Thunderbirds thing.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Loks

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down, etc.

    Bit of American history: The very first reported “school schooting” apparently dates back to 1764:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac%27s_Rebellion_school_massacre

    There were are at least 10 incidents during the 19th Century. I had no idea about the history of this awful phenomenon, it always seemed like a late-20th Century problem. Deadliest offender: Andrew Kehoe in 1927. Killed 44 people (mostly children) in Michigan. He used bombs…

    You’re right, though, this never should have happened in an ideal society. I was really disturbed after Breivik’s massacre in Norway last year. He’s now considered the West’s deadliest rampage killer. I’d always assumed “it can’t happen there”, since Scandinavia has very strict gun control.

  • also intj

    Society’s Indisposable Son, I hope things get better for you.

  • INTJ

    @ VD

    I’m all for it. But don’t be certain that is the reductio ad absurdum it is intended to be. As genetic science advances, it will soon be possible for individuals to hold biological vetoes over governments that are far more lethal than a mere nuclear bomb. That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.

    No, that’s not good news. That’s still scary.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Let’s take a closer look at these numbers, all circa 2006ish. In particular, we’ll look at the section of the StatsCan report that includes Chart 4:

    1.) The number of guns per capita in the USA is 288 % that of Canada. The rate of homicide by gun in the USA is 586 % that of Canada. That implies each gun in the USA is 200 % as likely to be used to commit a murder.

    2.) There is no eye-popping difference in the rate of non-gun (i.e. knife) violence in the Anglo-sphere countries (homicides per 100,000 people per year):

    USA: 1.61
    Canada: 1.27
    Australia: 1.11
    England/Wales: 1.15

    England doesn’t have a ‘knife problem.’ The USA has a violence problem, period.

    3.) The majority of homicides in Canada and Australia are committed with illegal firearms. The majority of homicides in the USA are committed with legal firearms. The rates of gun homicides is much lower in Canada and Australia are much lower than those of the USA both on absolute and gun ratio bases.

    4.) The distributions of pistol murders is telling. 75 % of all murders in the USA are conducted with a handgun. The numbers are all near 50 % in Canada, Australia, and England/Wales. This implies that the higher rate of per gun murders found in 1.) is correlated to the higher distribution of pistols in the USA. The prevalence of semi-automatic pistols like the Browning Hi-Power and its evolutionary successors in the USA is really telling, as these type of easily concealable weapons are really more ideal for criminals than citizens.

    This also relates back to point 3.), that pistol murders are predominately with illegal weapons, long-arm murders are predominately with legal weapons. The murder rates are much lower in countries where pistols are more tightly regulated.

    5.) Suicide rates (of males) in the USA are only marginally higher in the USA compared to other Anglo-sphere countries:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    USA: 19.2
    Canada: 17.3
    Australia: 14.9
    United Kingdom: 10.9

    This tends to discount a higher ‘misery index’ in the USA as being responsible for the higher homicide rate. Suicides outnumber homicides by an enormous margin (~ 1000 %).

    Suicide by gun and suicide by hanging are both roughly equally lethal. Murder by gun and murder by garrote are not.

    The conclusion I draw from these statistics is that the USA is much more culturally violent than the other English speaking nations, but that the violence problem in the USA is exacerbated by the widespread distribution of firearms. Greater restrictions on sale, and regulation on storage, of firearms — in particular (semi-automatic) pistols — would probably substantially reduce gun homicides over the course of ~25 years. I wouldn’t expect gun violence in the USA to decline to the levels enjoyed by other English-speaking countries, however. The US constitution explicitly grants the government the right to regulate firearms.

    Honestly, those of you who feel threatened by the government would be
    well advised to join the government and affect change from the inside. The government, after all, is composed of citizens, and either you trust your fellow citizens or you don’t. Standing on the outside demanding your way, but not being willing to work towards your way, is an infantile strategy that is doomed to failure.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    VD wrote:

    That’s true. Of course, there are no shortage of historical Germans who could have said the same thing before 1941.

    I think perhaps you should review a history textbook to better understand when World War II started. Hint, it wasn’t when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. If you want a good review of the build-up towards the war, I quite like Niall Ferguson’s “The War of the World” and recommend it. In particular, it covers the escalations of atrocities that Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and others committed.

    I am needling you because of your silly emphasis of the per centage discussion. There is a difference between intelligence and cleverness.

  • VD

    I think perhaps you should review a history textbook to better understand when World War II started. Hint, it wasn’t when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

    I think you should understand with whom you are dealing. I know far more about World War II than you likely imagine. My reference to 1941 doesn’t refer to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, nor does the reference to historical Germans refer to the beginning of World War II. It refers to the beginning of the Endlösung, which some date to January 1942, but was clearly decided at higher levels in 1941.

    However, I noted in the study that includes the stats cited in your comment, only 1% of the college freshmen studied were home-schooled, compared with 4% of the children in the U.S. Why such a differential?

    First, because 12 years ago, the number of children being homeschooled in the USA was below 2 percent. The number for 2007 was 2.9 percent. The age distribution isn’t even. Second, if a child is homeschooled through sophmore year and then graduates from a high school, my understanding is that he’s not counted as a homeschooler for college purposes. And third, because parents who homeschool tend to be considerably less ignorant about their children’s educational capabilities and interests than parents who blithely assume that all of their children must go to college. More than two-thirds of the students presently matriculating do not belong there, as evidenced by the fact that only 60 percent of those who enter college manage to graduate within 6 years. Nor can they afford it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      And third, because parents who homeschool tend to be considerably less ignorant about their children’s educational capabilities and interests than parents who blithely assume that all of their children must go to college. More than two-thirds of the students presently matriculating do not belong there, as evidenced by the fact that only 60 percent of those who enter college manage to graduate within 6 years.

      Are you saying that a large percentage of home-schooled children are not college-bound, and that is for good reason because they lack the capability to thrive there? In that case, what does home schooling prepare them for?

  • JP

    This murder rampage has made me take a trip down memory lane to the guy who used to bully me in middle school.

    He had a brief criminal career and ended up using a knife to kill his mother and attempt to kill his brother, sister, father, and sister’s boyfriend.

    At some point, he did find a gun and used it to kill himself before he was caught.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com/ Marellus

    Re : Guns.

    Ultimately it devolves down to trust.

    The trust that your neighbor is not violent.
    The trust that your physical body is safe.
    The trust that your family is safe.
    The trust that your cries for help will be answered.
    The trust that those people around you, are essentially good.

    We’re not good. We never were. We never will be. All we can do, is strive for it.

    And now there is yet another gunner’s rampage.

    And the counterargument now, as always, is this :

    Surrender thy guns, for ye shall be protected. Thou art barbarians for not undertaking this. And the barbarians would do the same, but for an example. And that example must be thine.

    There is no metric that will give credence to trust. Establish trust first, and the guns will disappear.

    That will not happen.

    Wherever there is redistribution of wealth, there is the retribution of the reprobates, the realism of the reactionaries, the remonstrations of the reasonable, and the reassurances of the reprehensible.

  • VD

    The conclusion I draw from these statistics is that the USA is much more culturally violent than the other English speaking nations, but that the violence problem in the USA is exacerbated by the widespread distribution of firearms.

    No. You’re missing the obvious. It’s not cultural violence. It’s racial. The USA has far more Africans and Hispanics than the other English-speaking nations and Africans alone commit 49.7 percent of the homicide in the USA. Look at the rate for the white population – which in FBI terms includes Hispanics – and that drops the rate of homicide by gun in the USA to 281%, right in line with the 288% gun per capita rate.

  • JP

    “Honestly, those of you who feel threatened by the government would be
    well advised to join the government and affect change from the inside. The government, after all, is composed of citizens, and either you trust your fellow citizens or you don’t. Standing on the outside demanding your way, but not being willing to work towards your way, is an infantile strategy that is doomed to failure.”

    The police had to deal with a sovereign citizen recently here when she refused to pull over for the police.

    That’s always good for a funny news story.

  • Sai

    “Society’s Indisposable Son, I hope things get better for you.”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    No. You’re missing the obvious. It’s not cultural violence. It’s racial. The USA has far more Africans and Hispanics than the other English-speaking nations and Africans alone commit 49.7 percent of the homicide in the USA. Look at the rate for the white population – which in FBI terms includes Hispanics – and that drops the rate of homicide by gun in the USA to 281%, right in line with the 288% gun per capita rate.

    How many of the mass shooters of the last years had been African?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I would not homeschool because it’s more about the adventure with your same-age peers rather than getting a super elite education.

    My husband went to an eccentric private school that does lots of outdoor stuff and world travel, and he has lots of stories and memories of being with other kids his age, backpacking through snowy mountains, canoeing in southeast Asia, hiking in Latin America, etc.

    You can always read the classics or do advanced math as an adult, but kids only have one childhood, and better to let them roam, play and experience social dynamics.

    FWIW I consider homeschooling to be just the parent(s), a curriculum and the parents’ own kids. Once you start introducing other kids that’s more like pooled private schooling.

  • doomwolf

    @VD

    “That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.”

    By your definition Somalia must be the freest state on earth. Also, the argument that arming the populace prevents the government from becoming tyrannical has never made sense to me, because the government of any even partially industrialized nation will have a military with more and better weapons that they can use to crush an uprising. Granted, they may not kill everyone at once, and the survivors can retreat into the bush & proceed to engage in a long and bloody civil war financed through either crime (re: FARC in Columbia, IRA in Ulster) or an outside patron (central America in the 1980’s comes to mind). I do not see this as an improvement.

    Also, I favour gun control (within limits-hunting weapons are fine, assault rifles/pistols/high capacity mags which are designed solely to kill other people, not so much; I like having a state monopoly on violence), but not disarming the military or police. When the enemy is crossing the border, it’s too late to raise an army. My grandfather was in my regiment during WWII and he told me that, man-for-man, the Germans were better than the allies because they had more professionals.

    On that note, I think that our respective positions are so far apart that we will simply have to agree to disagree.

    @Mr Nervous Toes #227

    Further to your post there, my understanding (from reading the newspaper) is that many of the illegal firearms in Canada are smuggled in from the US, where there are fewer laws concerning their purchase. Criminal organizations then use them to pay for drugs they smuggle south. Why is that as soon as a society/population on this globe develops to the point that they have disposable income they promptly spend it on narcotics? I really do not understand it.

    @ Anacaona

    I can’t recall any non-white mass-shooters within recent memory. Does someone have evidence to correct me otherwise.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ana

    How many of the mass shooters of the last years had been African?

    Other than the D.C. snipers 10 years ago, I don’t recall any.

    However… Virginia Tech in ’07, Oikos earlier this year, in both cases the perps happened to be from Korea. Certainly changed the standard criminal profile for these kinds of things. As did Fort Hood.

  • JP

    “My grandfather was in my regiment during WWII and he told me that, man-for-man, the Germans were better than the allies because they had more professionals.”

    Of course they were.

    Modern Imperial Germany was a Prussian project, first and foremost.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Doomwolf…”Why is that as soon as a society/population on this globe develops to the point that they have disposable income they promptly spend it on narcotics?”

    Yet people who *don’t* have significant disposable income often spend what little they do have on narcotics…case in point, opium and the Chinese coolie.

    Someone observed that “happiness is that moment that we would not trade for nonexistence”…drugs or alcohol, taken in sufficient quantity, provides a pretty good simulation of nonexistence. Which would suggest that narcotics use in any society (past some baseline level) is a metric for unhappiness.

  • J

    Re non-white mass shooters: The AA guy in WI who shot up the spa where his wife worked–

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/us/three-killed-in-shooting-at-spa-in-brookfield-wis.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Re homeschool:

    It’s as good as the homeschooler. I think it can be a tremendous opportunity to tailor a child’s education to his/her own particular needs or a a tremendous disaster. It can also be very socially isolating as even those parents who band together to home school their kids tend to pick very similar people to work with. I was once offered an opportunity to be the de facto principal of a group of homeschoolers. I turned it down as didn’t believe a consolidated group of UMC parents would be able to provide the resources the local school district did.

  • Joe

    Re: non-white mass shooters: Fort hood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

    But that’s not the point, Ana. Violent crimes involving hand guns DO have a racial component. And it’s not the one to which you pointed.

  • J

    With the political BS about to spring into action. young men’s suicide rates have trebled under feminism (since 1965) (female rate is pretty much unchanged).

    I’m not sure that this isn’t a case of correlation being confused with causation, and I like to see a more complete argument regarding this.

    can we not look into where/how these psychos are being produced? something has gone wrong with society.

    Most of these really senseless shooting are carried out by psychotic young men with bad brain chemistry being a major factor. They differ from gang violence which generally has an understandable motivation (money, power, turf) and is often linked with lack of positive male role models.

  • J

    Re race and violence in the US

    Violence, as well as most other social ills, in the US tends to be linked far more strongly with socio-economic status than race or ethnicity. Middle class people of various races, creeds, etc. tend tomore strongly resemble each other across all measures than they do lower SES people of the same ethnic background.

  • J

    @Sassy

    I forgot to move the decimal two places over. Haha. I was wrong.
    *giggles*

    LMAO..If I had your address, I’d send you one of those t-shirts that say “Too pretty to learn math” as an Xmas gift.

  • J

    In that case, what does home schooling prepare them for?

    IME, many homeschoolers tend to cluster around two different ideologies–chrunchies and Christians. There is a smaller contingent that has had had a specific problem wih a local school system not meeting a child’s needs or that wants to tailor curriculum around a child’s individual needs, but many people who homeschol are more concerned with minimalizing the influence of mainstream society than in preparing a child for anything specific.

  • Lokland

    @david foster

    You cannot force what has already been volunteered.
    Both my mother and fathers families had numerous volunteers in both wars.

    I’m not as positive on family history in the first but as a general rule, the men on my fathers side excel at living for very long periods of time.

    Also, end of WWI saw conscription in Canada but only 10, 000 of those troops saw actual battle. Thank you 10th grade history.

    Last, taxation is a necessary fee for living in a civilized society. I simply think of it as paying my gym membership.
    If I want to use the equipment I must pay the fee.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    “I’d always assumed “it can’t happen there”, since Scandinavia has very strict gun control.”

    Yeah shit happens and it sucks.
    The ideal is to stop these from happening but thats impossible.

    But removing an automatic weapon from the hands of a potential killer is by far better than trying to find all the potential killers.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Personally, I have no dog in the fight, and believe that home schooling could be excellent – I have no doubt that I would have provided a top notch experience for my own kids, though they got that elsewhere in our case”

    Homeschooling is similar to communism.
    Looks absolutely excellent on paper.
    In certain real world situations it is by far superior to the norm.

    In most cases paper and world do not meet appropriately and the result is far inferior.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    Couple things.

    The succesionist movement in Quebec is pretty much done. The old people who want it are dead and dying and the young don’t care, the cost of tuition is far more important to them.

    Generally, its fallen in popularity every year since the last attempt.

    Also, believe it or not, its possible to leave a country/empire without violence and get along well with them afterwards.

    It involves being firm yet patient and realistic.

    See Canada and Her Majesty, 1867 for details.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Lok…”Last, taxation is a necessary fee for living in a civilized society. I simply think of it as paying my gym membership.
    If I want to use the equipment I must pay the fee.”

    What if the people running the gym are paying themselves large amounts of money, buying inferior equipment from their friends and overpaying for it, etc….and there is no other gym in town AND you’re not allowed to cancel your subscription?

  • Lokland

    @david foster

    You hire new management as the gym users are the owners. The managers work for them.

    The recent downfall of the liberal party is a prime example.

    They went from majority government to barely being represented in parliament over the course of a decade cause their replacement choice for the last guy was a crook.

  • JP

    The problem is that we have consumed democracy.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/12/consuming-democracy.html

    “e can define democracy, for the sake of the current discussion, as a form of government in which ordinary citizens have significant influence over the people and policies that affect their lives. That influence—the effective ability of citizens to make their voices heard in the corridors of power—is a fluid and complex thing. In most contemporary democracies, it’s exercised primarily through elections in which officials can be thrown out of office and replaced by somebody else. When a democracy’s more or less healthy, that’s an effective check; there are always other people angling for any office, whether it’s president or town dogcatcher, and an official who wants to hold onto her office needs to glance back constantly over her shoulder to make sure that her constituents aren’t irritated enough at her to throw their support to one of her rivals.

    The entire strategy of political protest depends on the threat of the next election. Why would it matter to anybody anywhere if a bunch of activists grab signs and go marching down Main Street, or for that matter down the Mall in Washington DC? Waving signs and chanting slogans may be good aerobic exercise, but that’s all it is; it has no effect on the political process unless it delivers a meaningful message to the politicians or the people. When protest matters, the message to the politicians is blunt: “This matters enough to us that we’re willing to show up and march down the street, and it should matter to you, too, if you want our votes next November.” The message to the people is less direct but equally forceful: “All these people are concerned about this issue; if you’re already concerned about it, you’re not alone; if you aren’t, you should learn more about it”—and the result, again, is meant to show up in the polls at the next election.

    You’ll notice that the strategy of protest thus only means anything if the protesters have the means, the motive, and the opportunity to follow through on these two messages. The politicians need to be given good reason to think that ignoring the protesters might indeed get them thrown out of office; the people need to be given good reason to think that the protesters speak for a significant fraction of the citizenry, and that their concerns are worth hearing. If these are lacking, again, it’s just aerobic exercise.

    That, in turn, is why protest in America has become as toothless as it is today. Perhaps, dear reader, you went to Washington DC sometime in the last decade to join a protest march to try to pressure the US government into doing something about global warming. If the president just then was a Democrat, he didn’t have to pay the least attention to the march, no matter how big and loud it was; he knew perfectly well that he could ignore all the issues that matter to you, break his campaign promises right and left, and plagiarize all the most hated policies of the previous occupant of the White House, without the least political risk to himself. All he had to do come election time is wave the scary Republicans at you, and you’d vote for him anyway. If he was a Republican, in turn, he knew with perfect certainty that you weren’t going to vote for him no matter what he did, and so he could ignore you with equal impunity.””

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Iggles: “I’ve heard horror stories where woman have been with their live-in boyfriend for 5+ years without a ring, they give an ultimatum and he chooses to end the relationship all while professing how much he still loves/cares about her!”
    Hum, hum, hum… I know of these situations personally, viewed from the other side of the gender fence, so to speak. This is a common mistake that many girls do: Presurizing their man into mariage and children. A ultimatum is the surest way to make the guy flee, even if he has deep feelings for her. Let me be ironic: I love the words “horror stories” here…
    A guy leaving a girl because she incessantly talked about mariage has nothing to do with the guy’s feelings for her not being strong or honest enough.
    I commented here at some point that women are generally one step ahead of men when it comes to what they want…
    A young guy may be reluctant to marry because:
    A) He’s simply still too immature to know whether he’s already willing to marry and have children later on.
    Or B) He’s unwilling to do so because he already has feelings of being short changed in some aspects of the relationship. A classical aspect is the sexual one, but there are many other ones, like having the feeling that the woman is taking the relationship in a one sided direction by using subtle stratagems for her OWN ends.
    “Good”, serious and sincere girls should be wise when dealing with guys in their 20’s not to pose as marriage blackmailers.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Hope: “My husband went to an eccentric private school that does lots of outdoor stuff and world travel, and he has lots of stories and memories of being with other kids his age, backpacking through snowy mountains, canoeing in southeast Asia, hiking in Latin America, etc.”

    IOW, lots of money. I get it now!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    But that’s not the point, Ana. Violent crimes involving hand guns DO have a racial component. And it’s not the one to which you pointed.

    We were discussing mass shootings specifically and how to prevent it,thus mentioning the AA was not part of the point unless you can proof that the majority of the mass shooters are non-white.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Doomwolf
    Good points all around, especially the article from the Washington Post.

    There are two semi-related issues in play. One is whether increased GC would reduce overall firearm deaths. Probably. The other is whether increased GC would prevent extraordinary mass shootings. Possibly.

    On the 1st point, I’ve always understood there to be a pretty weak correlation between GC and crime reduction in the U.S. Something like ~20% of firearm deaths occur in just 4 U.S. cities: NYC, D.C., Chicago, and Detroit. There’s a definite crime concentration going on, with vast portions of rural and suburban America quite safe. Even moreso than big cities like Berlin, London, and Paris.

    IF a disproportionate % of U.S. firearm deaths are the result of the drug trade and/or gang activity, then that might explain why crime rates are now lower than they were in 1960 (and certainly the 1930s). It’s more likely the result of increased law enforcement and higher incarceration rates, not GC per se. I could be wrong, but addressing the problems inherent in the “War on Drugs” would probably have a much bigger effect on violent crime reduction.

    On the 2nd point, though we seem to have more of these kinds of tragedies, other countries have experienced them too. Not as often, but Dunblane in ’96, Breivik in Norway last year (the deadliest thus far)… Australia, Britain, France, and Switzerland have each had a major incident in the last 10-15 years. The answer is always to make GC laws stricter, but these incidents keep happening. And mental health seems to be at the root of this particular problem.

    The problem with both issues is that it’s impossible to emulate Canadian or European or Japanese GC policy without limiting or eliminating rights already spelled out in the 2nd, 10th, and 14th Amendments.

    It’s pretty clear how Americans view their Bill of Rights: individually, not collectively. Ask someone to restrict his or her rights, whatever they may be, for the greater good, and the answer is unequivocally NO.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    ” individually, not collectively. Ask someone to restrict his or her rights, whatever they may be, for the greater good, and the answer is unequivocally NO.”

    This probably explains why I can’t seem to figure Americans out even slightly.

  • JP

    @Anacaina:

    “We were discussing mass shootings specifically and how to prevent it”

    By figure out who the sociopaths/psychopaths are and tracking/imprisoning/medicating/training them.

    Mass shootings generally require good impulse control and significant logistical planning.

    These people don’t just snap one day.

    They generally plan for a significant period of time.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Loks

    This probably explains why I can’t seem to figure Americans out even slightly.

    Heh, quite right! As a communitarian and non-gun owner, I have zero problems with how you Canucks run things. I’d probably get along just find up North. At the same time, America is on average safer today than anytime in the last 50 years. Not to say things couldn’t improve (i.e. the drug war). But I don’t feel like I’m living in a crime-ravaged, fear-ridden wasteland as Michael Moore would suggest. :shock:

  • JP

    @Megaman:

    “And mental health seems to be at the root of this particular problem.”

    For the people with schizophrenia or associated mental disorders. You put them on anti-psychotics and they are no longer obsessed with Gabby Giffords.

    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/25/judge-loughner-not-competent-to-stand-trial/

    For the sociopaths/psychopaths, not so much. You can’t medicate away those traits.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Psychopathy_and_depression

  • Damien Vulaume

    @omegaman: “It’s pretty clear how Americans view their Bill of Rights: individually, not collectively.”
    Yup! This is a very easily noticeable pattern with Americans. “me-myself-I” invariably comes first, the collective good second. No wonder this mentality also badly affects the men/women relations.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    Do you smoke weed?

    If no, you best not be against it.
    Conservatively, 90% of us are stoners (I am not one).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff “IOW, lots of money. I get it now!”

    Actually his mother did it on a single nurse’s salary. She sent him to those trips but has never been to those places herself.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Loks

    If no, you best not be against it.

    Heh, no, I’m with the late, great Bill Buckley on that issue. It’s easy for people to be conservative, but hard for them to be consistent at the same time. Not for me, though… :wink:

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    For the sociopaths/psychopaths, not so much. You can’t medicate away those traits.

    I think the problem is that most people can’t accept that some people are just evil and they can plan ahead horrible things and not only not care enjoy the process. Since I do have a sociopath of a brother and I saw him harming others just for the lolz I know some people are just like that. At least in his case being in my culture there is not enough incentives for being on a mass spree killing (he is also a coward he wouldn’t do anything that will harm himself he knows he is going to hell no matter what and he doesn’t want to go there any faster) but there most be an element in the cultures massive killings happens that we can control

  • doomwolf

    I don’t think GC will ever completely prevent mass-shooting events, but the harder it is to have an automatic weapon, the harder it is pull it off. As has been demonstrated in China it is also possible to have ‘mass stabbing’ events, but on the whole that is a more level playing field (you can run up and tackle him, it’s more physical effort to stab someone to death, can run away from a person but not bullets, etc).

    This is an interesting, if profoundly depressing article by a woman who has
    a son with severe issues:

    http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

    According to the author, Mother Jones did a study of 61 mass shootings in the US 1982-present (less this week)
    -43 shooters were white males
    -1 was female
    -most acquired their guns legally

    Reference difference between American and Canadian attitudes towards GC, you can see it in our respective founding documents. The American Constitution talks about the right you enjoy “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness [re: property],” the British North America Act (BNA) of 1867 states that federal government exists to exercise “peace, order, and good government”.

    @ Damien Vulaume #263

    You have quite succinctly merged the two discussion of this thread. Well done.

  • Cooper

    “90% of us are”

    *nods*

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Hope: maybe things cost more now. I could afford to send one child to private school… but then housing the other two and my wife wouldn’t happen!

    Family of two? Could probably swing that. My mother is a nurse and they make good money.

  • Lokland

    @Coop

    Its a prevalent meme. I’m not sure as to the truth, I doubt its actually 90% but its definitely damn high, well north of 50.

    @Mega

    Note:
    Certain aspects of the American system of governance are quite good.
    I’d like to see some reforms in certain areas that create a hybrid system of the two.

    One area would be healthcare (no insurance however).

    Another aspect is that certain individual rights are neglected in Canada. Ex. Genetic discrimination is not illegal in Canada. Yet. Thats a matter of time more than a system failure but Americans tend to lead the charge in certain unfair practices against the individual.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @DW

    I don’t think GC will ever completely prevent mass-shooting events, but the harder it is to have an automatic weapon, the harder it is pull it off.

    Very logical argument, and one I don’t disagree with. But it’s academic. How do you go about convincing the majority of citizens in post-9/11 America to go along with limiting or eliminating pre-existing rights, in the interests of the public good? Especially in light of the fact that legally licensed gun owners, sporting enthusiasts or not, have an astronomically low crime rate.

    The Left certainly wouldn’t go along with that on any other issue, except perhaps “economic” rights. Why would anybody else? I understand there’s a movement in Britain for more gov’t regulation of the mass media, in response to the email/phone-hacking scandal at News Corp. That kind of discussion would never happen here in the U.S.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland & Cooper?

    90%? Seems way too high.

    Here’s a UN study that says “16.8 per cent of Canadians between the ages of 15 and 64 smoked pot or ingested one of its derivatives last year.” And that ~30% of Ontario 7-12th graders did.

  • doomwolf

    @Megaman

    I have no idea. Maybe one of these gunmen will take out the kids of Supreme Court judge by accident? That would certainly bring it home to them (NB-Not advocating that this happen, simply pointing out that it would go to the top of the legal agenda if it did)

  • HanSolo
  • Lokland

    @Han

    Its tongue in cheek.
    One thing almost every foreigner who I’ve ever met who came to Canada for has heard of is that we are all stoners.

    I’ve heard many Canadians say it as well. Me included (jokingly).

  • doomwolf

    @Hans Solo

    I don’t know how many Canadians smoke pot, but it’s not 90%. Maybe in lower mainland BC, but the country as a whole, no.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @doomwolf

    You’re confusing the constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The preamble of the U. S. Constitution reads:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    It’s not as pedestrian as the Canadian constitution.

    I would also point out that Britain was a bit more circumspect about how they dealt with their overseas possessions after the USA broke away. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, et al benefited from that.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Loks

    Certain aspects of the American system of governance are quite good.

    Yeah, I understand “hate speech” laws in Canada are fairly restrictive. They make speech codes on college campuses here in the states look tame by comparison. Not a fan of single-payer health care. I admire the Japanese model a great deal, and I’m fiscally conservative.

    It’s not just gun rights that people see as individually guaranteed. Abortion, drug use, euthanasia, perhaps even *promiscuity*, any of those issues cause emotions to flare up. Even money. Look at government entitlements here in the U.S. and austerity measures over in the EU. People view “free” services (education, health care, etc.) as something they’re individually owed, but that others should subsidize!

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    “Yeah, I understand “hate speech” laws in Canada are fairly restrictive. They make speech codes on college campuses here in the states look tame by comparison. ”

    Nah. With the right amount of practice you can get away with just about anything. (As long as its not in a women’s studies class, bad idea…bad idea.)

    Also makes for some good jokes,
    Your a friction retard…in a good way.

    The main problem is that the voice of PC is so overwhelmingly powerful that those who speak otherwise typically get labelled as crazy.

    I’ve seen people say absolutely outrageous claims, that amount to the removal of free speech, and get away with it cause it was PC.

    Ex. This guy should not be allowed to speak about pro-choice at our institution, it is not pragmatic or solving any problems and therefore amounts to hate speech.

    In this incidence people came down on this young man hard. I didn’t even get a chance to pile on :(

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    ” Abortion, drug use, euthanasia, perhaps even *promiscuity*, any of those issues cause emotions to flare up. Even money.”

    The same is true here.
    LikeI said above though, the voice of liberal-PC is very, very strong here.

    But PC in Canada is different than in the US.

    Ex. Race. Americans run away in fear or just don’t talk about it.
    I call my wife Asian, my buddy (above) brown etc. quite a few people call me white. Not as a name but a descriptor. I’ve done the same when travelling in the States and people act like I just killed someone.
    (Perhaps younger Americans are like this, I don’t know.)

    Less sex pozzy fem. I read the description Susan posted about (insert school Harden guy went too) and their sex week and I felt sick by the end of it (like actually ill).
    I’ve seen the one done here, its like watching kids in junior kindergarden play with blocks in comparison to watching a porno.

    Abortion, non-issue. Gay marriage, non-issue.
    Euthanasia is still hotly debated. I’m split.

    “People view “free” services (education, health care, etc.) as something they’re individually owed, but that others should subsidize!”

    Yes. I know quite a few people who bitch about taxes yet get their meds expensive as hell meds for free.
    Their not the norm but some people were built to complain.

  • Lokland

    Notes

    Friction= frickin
    pro-life not pro-choice.

  • Damien Vulaume

    About PC in north America:
    I started getting annoyed when the term “African American” replaced the word “black”, as if it ever had been derogatory. But what did I know, later in Boston/Cambridge, I started hearing white upper middle class students labeling themselves “Euro-American”. There is no end to it…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Doomwolf
    I get where you’re coming from. Americans would be loath to give an inch on gun rights, unless there were more extraordinary tragedies more often. That’s the perverse incentive of politics: never let a serious crisis got to waste.

    The slippery slope is a logical fallacy, unless it’s demonstrated to exist:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

    I think that’s one of the roadblocks to comprehensive GC here in the U.S. People see examples like this and rightly fear incrementally draconian gov’t policies. I know I do.

  • INTJ

    @ Damien Vulaume

    About PC in north America:
    I started getting annoyed when the term “African American” replaced the word “black”, as if it ever had been derogatory. But what did I know, later in Boston/Cambridge, I started hearing white upper middle class students labeling themselves “Euro-American”. There is no end to it…

    The most annoying thing about it is that it’s a misnomer. My room-mate is a genuine African American (who, like the majority of Africans, also happens to be black). Most blacks in America are not genuine African Americans. They’re several generations removed from Africa, and have very little to do with Africa in terms of culture or identity. They’re just black Americans.

  • dan

    S’pose I might as well chime in, since the topic has veered off into a topic I have knowledge in. SW, please pardon my contribution to the derailment, this is my first post on gun control anywhere for at least 3 months, I swear!

    “Assault rifles” are rarely used in crimes, and while the crimes, like in Newtown, are highly publicized and frightening, they represent a very small portion of overall gun violence. Banning these rifles wouldn’t solve the mass shooting problem either, as there are other options, as evidenced by the 1927 bombing.

    Handguns make up the majority of gun crime, as a previous poster noted. There are so many handguns in circulation, that IMO banning sales outright will not cause significant change in our lifetimes. A total handgun ban could help, but many Americans see handguns as an essential self defense tool, and you would have one hell of a fight confiscating them.

    Semi automatics in general are more dangerous than manually operated firearms. As with handguns, the cat is already out of the bag, and nothing short of a confiscation would work IMO, as most of those 300 million or so guns are probably semi automatic. And, as with handguns, semi automatics make good home defense tools, manually operated firearms do not. With the exclusion of lever action firearms, with a manually operated firearm, you would probably get off 1 shot before the bad guy reaches you. Hopefully you didn’t miss *and* he went down, because if not, he will beat your ass to death with it.

    And as for “automatics”, this term gets thrown around willy nilly in the news. The reality is that few people own these legally: probably 1/150 or 1/200, because to own one, you need extensive background checks, and around $20,000.

    If you try to ban firearms that are good for killing people, you ban firearms that are good for self defense too, they are one in the same. So IMO, that is not an acceptable solution. The people who want to restrict firearms that are good for self defense are essentially asking people to give up their means of effective self defense, and hope criminals (who are still armed) don’t target them. That isn’t good enough for me, or many Americans. Its nice that so many people feel safe all the time, but many see the world as dangerous: and they’re right.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OTC, one of the reasons my husband didn’t want me to be a SAHM is because with our combined income, we could afford to send two kids to private school. I am a bad teacher (he said so, too) so homeschooling was a nonstarter.

    As for housing, we bought at near lowest price after bubble burst, and got a good interest rate, though not as low as now. Cost of living in Utah is also not too high. Daycare is as expensive as private school, but still affordable.

  • VD

    Are you saying that a large percentage of home-schooled children are not college-bound, and that is for good reason because they lack the capability to thrive there? In that case, what does home schooling prepare them for?

    No. Did you not understand the significance of the age distribution? Most people who homeschool start when their kids are young. If most of the current home-schooled children are younger, then obviously there is not an unusually low percentage of them going to college even if only 1 in 4 of the current population do.

    ” In 1994 there were just 345,000 home schooled children, but in 1999 there were 850,000, more than doubling! In the year 2000, there were approximately 1.5 million homeschoolers.”

    Let’s make it simple and assume all those 1994 homeschoolers were first-graders. If you said that only 345,000 homeschoolers went on to college in 2006, but there were 1.8 million being homeschooled, you might think that the percentage who went on to college was only 20 percent. But in reality, every single kid who was homeschooled that was old enough to go to college did go to college. You can’t look at it the same way you look at the overall population for the obvious reason that the homeschooled population is rapidly growing. I was really surprised at the 4 percent number you cited; the last time I looked at it a few years ago it was 2.2 percent.

    I haven’t seen any studies on this, but I suspect that the homeschoolers who do go to college have a much better six-year graduation record than the 57 percent rate for all college students. Homeschooling tends to create autodidacts and allows the homeschooled student to prepare for life as everything from an entrepreneur to a stay-at-home mother.

    College is increasingly useless. The system is in its death throes, but most people don’t realize it yet. Technology is killing it just like it killed stockbrokers; Glenn Reynolds linked to a good article about that earlier this week. Harvard and the other brand names will be giving out hundreds of thousands of online degrees within 20 years and many of the kids already taking online courses from the elite universities are the homeschoolers. Just two weeks ago, my wife and were discussing whether my son was going to take a Stanford calculus course or wait for an Oxford one.

    They’re several generations removed from Africa, and have very little to do with Africa in terms of culture or identity.

    But everything to do with it biologically and visually. The European nomenclature is more sensible. Individuals of predominantly black descent are all called Africans, which happens to be how they refer to themselves in the collective. (Otherwise they refer to their country of origin, such as Nigeria.) The truly ridiculous term is “Hispanic”, which is not even true in many cases.

    there most be an element in the cultures massive killings happens that we can control

    Amazing how the female mind always goes right to control. No. There isn’t. How is it that with more than 6,000 years of written history to peruse, anyone still thinks human action can be controlled. Someone mentioned China. A few years ago, a provincial government went on a major gun-seizing operation. After 60 years of murderous totalitarian rule and the abolition of personal firearms, they seized over 100,000 illegal guns.

    If you want to see serious bodycounts that are orders of magnitude higher, just try to ban guns in the USA. The violence surrounding the illegal alcohol trade and the illegal drug trade will look like flag football in comparison to that surrounding the illegal gun trade. As for the clueless wonder who mentioned Somalia as a bastion of gun freedom, I note that it is #66 on the guns per capita list, right behind warlord-infested Estonia.

  • Mike C

    ***College is increasingly useless.**** The system is in its death throes, but most people don’t realize it yet. Technology is killing it just like it killed stockbrokers; Glenn Reynolds linked to a good article about that earlier this week. Harvard and the other brand names will be giving out hundreds of thousands of online degrees within 20 years and many of the kids already taking online courses from the elite universities are the homeschoolers. Just two weeks ago, my wife and were discussing whether my son was going to take a Stanford calculus course or wait for an Oxford one.

    You may be right about this in the sense of college degree translating into real tangible valuable on the job skills especially for the numerous arts and flowers degrees. That said, at least as of today, the gateway to an entry level position in Corporate America and the chance to move up the ladder if one wishes still means a college degree….from the more reputable institution the better. People don’t go to Stanford, Yale, or Harvard business schools for the education, but for the alumni network they are buying into. A college degree is basically equivalent to the medieval guild system. Time will tell what the next 20 years will bring…employers will have to evolve some different system for evaluating a person if a college degree loses all its functionality in that regard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A college degree is basically equivalent to the medieval guild system. Time will tell what the next 20 years will bring…employers will have to evolve some different system for evaluating a person if a college degree loses all its functionality in that regard.

      Exactly right. I don’t doubt that the college bubble will burst, and that education is changing dramatically by going online. Tyler Cowen recently founded the free online Marginal Revolution University. However, as you point out a degree is the minimum credential for almost all non-menial jobs. Sure, if you’re Bill Gates you won’t need one, but most everyone else needs to be able to make a living in some less spectacular way.

      This summer, while my son was looking for a job after graduation, he filled in his schedule and made a bit of money by temping. The temp agency required not just a degree, but a college transcript before accepting him as a client. The assignments he was offered including everything from loading and unloading on a shipping dock, working in the mailroom, data entry and administrative assistant work. All of which required a college degree and a solid GPA.

      It’s a catch 22 – a college degree may not prepare you for anything better than humping boxes, but you’ll have to earn one to get the job.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Hope, re: the “eccentric” school that your husband attended… Gordonstoun by any chance?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @VD:
    “The European nomenclature is more sensible.”
    More sensible in what way?

  • szopen

    @Sassy

    I’m not going to sit here and flagellate myself over it.

    But if You will ever decide to do this anyway, do not forget to post the photos :D

    @Lamia
    For some males it is true, for some it’s not. However, for good chunk of those, who love to provide, they will hate to provide if someone would tell them they MUST provide.

    @ion

    I think its sad that it never occurred to me to arm teachers, but that is a really good idea.

    Are American teachers that much better than Polish?

    Anyway, the Polish for “to defend” is “bronić”, and the word for gun is “broń”. Government taking away a guns is taking away your right to defend yourself. And yes, Poland has gun control. And even a regulations wrt to knives.

    As for the cohabitation before the marriage I cohabitated with my wife for almost two years before the marriage.

    My wife’s friend cohabitates with the same boy (I refuse to call him a man) since she met him, made a wild sex in a parking lot decade ago. They have a daughter and you could argue that they are marriage in everything besides the name – and conservative arseholes like me should just shut up and accept that post-modern society does not really need formal marriages (and the issue of preferences for children of single mothers in kindergartens and schools should not influence of my opinion on their cohabitation).

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: benefits of a wife through co-hab. Here is a question for you all: if co-hab without marriage is giving the man all of the benefits of a wife without being married, then presumably co-hab is also giving a woman all of the benefits of a husband without being married.

    It would appear, however, that this thread largely assumes that co-hab’s alleged benefits are asymmetrical, with the man gaining more than his fair share. Why is this? Why doesn’t the benefits just net out? One cynic might say that the woman benefits from being married because the legal system will then be aligned in favor of her interests, while another might say that the woman really wants the rock and the big party and unmarried co-hab deprives her of these, but I don’t find either explanation to be particularly satisfying.

    My second question pertains to the argument that an extended period of unmarried co-hab is useful for de-romanticizing marriage and leading to the participants being able to make informed decisions—decisions based on a more accurate portrayal of married life.

    One argument made on HUS for college LTRs over more casual arrangements is that LTRs provide valuable “mate-shopping” material. Wouldn’t unmarried co-hab also serve this important purpose?

    In other words, shouldn’t both parties have a clear understanding of the long-term, equilibrium lifestyle that they should expect if they do get married? Wouldn’t a man who was “inspired” to get married by a strategically-withholding female possibly be operating from a temporary, romance-flooded emotional state when he did propose?

    I had a similar conversation with a female colleague once and her response was something like, “Oh no, the fantasy is critical—if they really knew what married life would entail, they wouldn’t be very motivated to get married.” She felt that people need to be legally obliged to work things out, and admitted that if the legal system was oriented against one party then that party would probably be making most of the concessions—forever—in the relationship (after the state became involved).

    I think that, in some tacit way, she would have encouraged tactics that would create certain attractive illusions about what post-marriage life would be like, justified by some kind of crypto-communist “collective good” logic that found marriage to be socially useful because it made the population more tractable or whatever.

  • Ted D

    GC – useless in the U.S. because there are FAR too many undocumented and/or illegal guns floating around. Sure, the Fed can come and collect all the guns they KNOW about, but even at my house that would only constitude about 1/3 of the total guns in the house. (maybe 1/2 at best.)

    I have a police officer friend with a nice collectin of undocumented guns, obtained legally. You see, not all states in the union even require the registration of handgun sales in the private sector. So, I can have someone that lives in Ohio buy me a handgun, and then sell it to me without the need for any legal paperwork. IF the Fed ever comes to them looking for that gun, they can simply say they sold it and have no idea to who, and there isn’t a damn thing that can be done about it. I have a few handguns purchased from Ohio in the house. ;-)

    They can pass all the GC laws they want, it WILL NOT get guns out of the hands of criminals, or even all the law abiding citizens. (well, law abiding until they keep those undoctumented guns…) And of course, what we REALLY need are more ways to turn decent people into criminals around here, because we don’t have enough crowding in our jails… *rolls eyes*

    Don’t forget, I’m from Western PA, and us folks cling to our Bibles and Guns!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    PS: sorry for the typo errors in that last one. Is the self-editing option gone?

  • JP

    “Don’t forget, I’m from Western PA, and us folks cling to our Bibles and Guns!”

    I still had to pay a tax on my profession in PA when I passed the bar.

    Yes, that’s right. I essentially paid a medieval guild tax that was based solely on the name of my profession.

    Not on income.

    On my profession, regardless of whether I made money.

    I think it was $700 a year for an attorney.

  • Ted D

    JP – No surprise. PA just LOVES to tax us.

  • Escoffier

    BB, well, sticking with a purely transactional analysis that ignores all higher considerations:

    The value of marriage to a woman is that, as she ages and her SMV declines, she is not left alone. She has a partner who is not merely committed to her but under legal obligation to stay with her or else suffer penalties. It seems pretty clear that despite all the “forty and fabulous!!!” nonsense peddled by the women’s magazines that most women do not in fact want to be alone as they age; they want a man around. If she were just co-habitating, then as they both age and her SMV declines and his rises (or at least peaks later and declines more slowly), he is more likely to leave her for other options unless constrained.

    So, co-hab is better for the man in the sense that it allows him an easier exit at a time when he is more likely to want one and to benefit from it.

    Of course we see people misjudging all the time, e.g., women dumping a perfectly fine man thinking she can do better and then discovering that she can’t. That’s in part fueled by the fantasy that the culture sells. It distorts the market, if you will, and causes people to price themselves incorrectly.

  • J

    Anyway, the Polish for “to defend” is “bronić”, and the word for gun is “broń”. Government taking away a guns is taking away your right to defend yourself. And yes, Poland has gun control. And even a regulations wrt to knives.

    So the late Polish-American action movie star Charles Bronson was literally a “son of a gun”?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson

  • pvw

    Escoffier:

    The value of marriage to a woman is that, as she ages and her SMV declines, she is not left alone. She has a partner who is not merely committed to her but under legal obligation to stay with her or else suffer penalties.

    If she were just co-habitating, then as they both age and her SMV declines and his rises (or at least peaks later and declines more slowly), he is more likely to leave her for other options unless constrained.

    So, co-hab is better for the man in the sense that it allows him an easier exit at a time when he is more likely to want one and to benefit from it.

    Me: And if she has an accidental pregnancy, greater protections for her and the child than if they were cohabitating, ie., the child of a marriage are presumed to be the husband’s. Otherwise, he has to acknowledge paternity, or she has to drag him to court, it isn’t a given.

    Perhaps lesser pressure to have an abortion, ie., the cohabitating boyfriend might feel he was tricked or trapped by her pregnancy, pushing him to break up with her, if he is of the view that “he didn’t sign up for all that, it messes up the fun and games, you see,” while a husband is more likely to see having a child as a matter of course….

  • J

    It would appear, however, that this thread largely assumes that co-hab’s alleged benefits are asymmetrical, with the man gaining more than his fair share. Why is this?

    Because the trade-off in mariage is that a man gives support and commitment in exchange for a stable source of sex, affection, love and support as well as practical services like housekeeping. When a woman “gives that away,” she gives away her biggest bargaining chip. A man who really loves her may stick around once the dopamine wears off, but unless there is a legal commitment that promotes staying together long enough to build other attachments, most relationships will fall apart when the initial attraction goes.

  • Abbot

    “culture sells. It distorts the market, if you will, and causes people to price themselves incorrectly.”

    The fuck culture sells easily to women because its much more of a bargain for them. The incorrect pricing is realized later when its too late.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “A man who really loves her may stick around once the dopamine wears off, but unless there is a legal commitment that promotes staying together long enough to build other attachments, most relationships will fall apart when the initial attraction goes.”

    You do realize that this is defined as entrapment?
    Also, I suppose you would change marriage laws to disable women the ease of leaving a marriage so that men cannot be abandoned, no?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Bastiat B:
    “An extended period of unmarried co-hab is useful for de-romanticizing marriage and leading to the participants being able to make informed decisions—decisions based on a more accurate portrayal of married life.”
    Yes, that’s the most basic common sense. That is the only way to truly know a person and see if this person is someone you want to live with for the rest of your life (with or without a ring, by the way) or, in other words, to evaluate how compatible you’re to each other.
    You know it’s funny, you quote one of your discussions with a female colleague, and her answer: “if they really knew what married life would entail, they wouldn’t be very motivated to get married.” Sounds like what I heard just 3 days ago with a female married friend.
    This sound like a very international comment on married life by married people, husbands or wives alike.
    I’ve had those discussions often, individually, with either male or female grown up married people whore where at least ten years into their married life (and the same with those not married), and they almost always gave me, after a few drinks, a very similar answer. There was always that sense of lassitude, of disapointed unfulfilled expectations, of tired routine, or worse, bitterness………………………..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      An interesting article on the downside of living together:

      The Downside of Cohabitation

      “Women are more likely to view cohabitation as a step toward marriage, while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment, and this gender asymmetry is associated with negative interactions and lower levels of commitment even after the relationship progresses to marriage. One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.

      Sliding into cohabitation wouldn’t be a problem if sliding out were as easy. But it isn’t. Too often, young adults enter into what they imagine will be low-cost, low-risk living situations only to find themselves unable to get out months, even years, later. It’s like signing up for a credit card with 0 percent interest. At the end of 12 months when the interest goes up to 23 percent you feel stuck because your balance is too high to pay off. In fact, cohabitation can be exactly like that. In behavioral economics, it’s called consumer lock-in.”

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        More than 50% of all these unions end in dissolution within five years (Milan, 2000).

        Bianchi and Casper (2000) have found that nearly 50% of American couples who cohabit do so as a precursor to marriage, although this occurs less often among African Americans (Teachman et al., 2000). Such cohabitors are more or less engaged; they are committed to each other and to getting married. Nevertheless, after 5 years, only 52% of these “precursor” couples in the Bianchi and Casper study had married, 31% had separated, and 17% were still cohabiting. These precursor couples had the lowest dissolution rate of all cohabitors and the highest marriage rate. In contrast, among those who cohabited as a substitute for marriage, 39% were still cohabiting—the highest rates of continuous living together after 5 years—and they had the lowest rate of marriage at 25%.

        On cohabitation replacing marriage:

        Sharp declines in both first marriage rates and rates of remarriage have been largely offset by increasing cohabitation. The increase in the proportion of unmarried young people should not be interpreted as an increase in “singlehood” as traditionally regarded: young people are setting up housekeeping with partners of the opposite sex at almost as early an age as they did before marriage rates declined. The characteristics of cohabiting couples are documented here, including the role of the least educated in leading this trend, and the presence of children with 40% of the couples. While most cohabitors expect to marry their partner, there is a substantial proportion who disagree about marriage, and a high proportion are concerned about the stability of their relationship. Thus the picture that is emerging is that cohabitation is very much a family status, but one in which levels of certainty about the relationship are lower than in marriage.

        http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/352997?uid=3739696&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101572472777

        On division of labor as it relates to marital intentions:

        Because men in cohabiting relationships are less likely to support their partners financially than are married men, cohabiting women are not compensated for their housework the way married women are

        http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/000302/cohabit.shtml

        Living together only after deciding to marry means more helpful men:

        “controlling for sociodemographic and household differences, men who are least committed to their relationships spend the least time on housework, whereas women’s housework time is not affected by marital intentions.”

        http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3599870?uid=3739696&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101572472777

  • J

    My second question pertains to the argument that an extended period of unmarried co-hab is useful for de-romanticizing marriage and leading to the participants being able to make informed decisions—decisions based on a more accurate portrayal of married life.

    There is someting to be said for that argument. One good thing about my marrying late is that I was able to look past the dopamine rush and analyze the situation and my husband’s personality. I only gave in to the dopamine because I saw enough commonalities and enough good in him to believe that love woul last after infatuation died.

    One argument made on HUS for college LTRs over more casual arrangements is that LTRs provide valuable “mate-shopping” material. Wouldn’t unmarried co-hab also serve this important purpose?

    Yes it would, but at the expense of a high opportunity cost that is disporpotionately borne by the woman. I have two sons; it wouldn’t blow me away of either one shacked up with some girl as long as he didn’t get her pregnant. IMO, the boys would have little to lose. If I had a daughter, OTOH, I’d do all that I could to discourage her just living with a guy.

    Wouldn’t a man who was “inspired” to get married by a strategically-withholding female possibly be operating from a temporary, romance-flooded emotional state when he did propose?

    That is a risk. Again, people need to be able to look beyond the infatuation at the character of a future spouse. I harp on this a lot, and I oftenb get feel that people really get what I’m saying.

    I had a similar conversation with a female colleague once and her response was something like, “Oh no, the fantasy is critical—if they really knew what married life would entail, they wouldn’t be very motivated to get married.”

    LOL. That also argues against the idea that living together benefits the man. If I had envsioned myself bleaching DH’s funky briefs before he put a ring on it, they’d have never gotten me down that aisle. Most of my female friends were similarly surprised at how much yucky stuff is involved in being a wife. We have a family friend who is big on the idea that women want the dress and the party. My retort to him is always that no dress is pretty enough to compenstate a woman for a lifetime of picking a man’s stinky socks of the floor.

    She felt that people need to be legally obliged to work things out, and admitted that if the legal system was oriented against one party then that party would probably be making most of the concessions—forever—in the relationship (after the state became involved).

    We hear that a lot in the ‘sphere. For me personally, the idea of raising two boys alone has always been a big motivator in working things out.

  • Damien Vulaume

    #306
    Merde, typo: “People whore where”, read “people who are”. No Freudian slip here, just mixed up the tenses. Lol.

  • J

    The value of marriage to a woman is that, as she ages and her SMV declines, she is not left alone.

    Actuallhy, I’d say that the biggest value is in having a partner in childraising.

  • Ted D

    J – “For me personally, the idea of raising two boys alone has always been a big motivator in working things out.”

    And I personally witnessed an argument between a now divorced couple where the wife said something like: “I don’t need YOU to raise our kids. My girlfriend Donna is doing just fine on her own!” Of course, her friend “Donna” (can’t remember the actual name) was getting some very nice child support, and moved another man into her house within a year from the divorce, which I’m sure adds to the household income, off the books of course…

  • Abbot
  • J

    You do realize that this is defined as entrapment?

    Not as long as divorce exists, no.

    <i.Also, I suppose you would change marriage laws to disable women the ease of leaving a marriage so that men cannot be abandoned, no?

    I think it does impact on women as well as men. I’ve tolerated problems in my marriage that I would not have tolerated in a shack-up precisely because I was married and I felt that I had legal and moral obligations to work things out. I also think that this “cash and prizes” stuff is way overblown. A few years after a divorce, most men have recovered financially; most women are scraping along.

  • Ted D

    “A few years after a divorce, most men have recovered financially; most women are scraping along.”

    Perhaps. But that does nothing to make family law fair and equitable.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “A college degree is basically equivalent to the medieval guild system”

    Perhaps a little unfair…to the medieval guild system, that is. I’m pretty sure that if you went to someone who had a “silversmith” sign in the window, he would actually know how to perform the trade in a reasonable competent manner. What people got, in exchange for the higher prices they paid due to the guild’s restraint of trade, was reasonable assurance that the craftsman knew what he was doing.

    Does anyone think that if you hire someone with a liberal arts degree from an American university that there is a reasonable assurance that he’ll be able to perform well the traditional liberal arts skills of reading complicated texts, writing same, developing logical arguments and critiquing them, speaking persuasively, etc?

  • J

    And I personally witnessed an argument between a now divorced couple where the wife said something like: “I don’t need YOU to raise our kids. My girlfriend Donna is doing just fine on her own!” Of course, her friend “Donna” (can’t remember the actual name) was getting some very nice child support, and moved another man into her house within a year from the divorce, which I’m sure adds to the household income, off the books of course…

    Natural selection at work. “Nice child support” or not, those kids were probaby better off financially in a two parent home than in a single parent home. Living with new “uncle daddy,” as DH would call him, may improve finances, but life with an “uncle daddy” is a bit of a crapshoot. While there are many wonderful stepdads out there, DH’s experience with a wide variety of uncle daddies gives me pause. If, God forbid, DH died tomorrow, I doubt there’d be another man in this house until my younger boy went off to college.

  • J

    It’s a catch 22 – a college degree may not prepare you for anything better than humping boxes, but you’ll have to earn one to get the job.

    Exactly. I wish I could apprentice my older boy to some tech master craftsman. As bright as he is, I fear college is going to be wasted on him as he puts forth zero effort into things that don’t interest him. I’m sure he’ll do beautifully in his major and do the bare minimum elsewhere. Yesterday, the kid muffed up a piano recital because he didn’t care to practice, and then wrote a rather dark and creative electronic variation on a popular Christmas carol.

    The thought that he’s going to spend two years fulfilling requirements for graduation before he can immerse himself in a major worries me. It’s two years in which we can court failure.

  • pvw

    Re. learning the reality of marriage by cohabiting. Didn’t need it…I grew up in an intact two parent home….

  • pvw

    Typo alert…I meant intact two parent MARITAL home.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person. ~Mignon McLaughlin

      Implied in this message is that you fall out of love as well. Marriage makes you much more likely to stick it out and work things through even when life throws crap at you.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Bastiat Blogger, no it was a private school here in Utah. They’re still around, and my husband has hinted at sending our kid(s) there for high school.

    Re: cohabitation, I actually viewed it the way a man did, to postpone commitment with the ex. But it was as Susan quoted, easy to slide into but difficult to get out. There was definitely the sunk cost psychology. I stayed with a crappy guy for far too long.

    Living with my husband was different. We moved in with the “this is a precursor to marriage” in mind, but since we had only known each other for two months, getting married right away would have been too big of a leap.

    I didn’t care for the ring, dress or the wedding, and I knew how “boring” living together can be. But I am very happy and grateful to be with my husband. The right person makes all the difference.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @J:
    Actually, I’d say that the biggest value is in having a partner in childraising.”

    Isn’t it a female pleonasm, though? In the end, most women want to reach that goal, reach that security. This is maybe where one of the biggest antagonism between the genders lies: Eventually, man surrenders to that female need. And children consolidate this surrender. I’m not writing in a cynical way here. Just observing nature in motion.

    “while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment”

    While my first reflex would have made deny this in my 20’s, the desire to speak about those matters frankly and honestly must make me say that this is true. As an aside, I presume “commitment” here means marriage and/children, since all the rest, fidelity, task sharing, caring, is a non issue.

    “One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.”

    Well, I guess it’s cultural here. Marriage itself doesn’t ensure more commitment for both, at least in France or in the CZ. Committed, mature, live-in partners don’t necessarily need to sign at the bottom of a parchemin to prove they want to start a family together. I think it’s all about cultural rituals or traditions here.

  • J

    Isn’t it a female pleonasm, though?

    LOL. I had to look that one up. It sounds like a spooonerism for neoplasm.

    In the end, most women want to reach that goal, reach that security.

    Well, it’s postualted that among our hunter/gatherer ancestors relationships lasted long enought to raise an infant through toddlerhood and then broke off as people changed partners. Coupling seems to have evolved because it fostered effective childraising as opposed to proviving old ladies with lifelong company.

    Eventually, man surrenders to that female need. And children consolidate this surrender. I’m not writing in a cynical way here. Just observing nature in motion.

    I think the drive comes from the opposite direction. On an evolutuonary basis, I needed a father for my kids, that he has turned to be a good longterm mate is the bonus. The didn’t consolidate that; they drove it. I think much of gray divorce is not driven by women being “unhaaaappppyyyy” as much as it is driven by the evaporation of the need for a man to be involved with kids.

  • J

    Implied in this message is that you fall out of love as well. Marriage makes you much more likely to stick it out and work things through even when life throws crap at you.

    Exactly.

  • Sai

    @Ted D
    “They can pass all the GC laws they want, it WILL NOT get guns out of the hands of criminals”
    THIS THIS THIS x 1000

    Tony Martin scares me. Not the actual man, but the situation.

    Also, about this quote posted earlier:

    “Men want to “provide” for women. It’s just in our nature. Our goal is to provide a emotional/physical/financial force field around you so that you can live the best life you want to live and know that if something bad happens it will be OK because we got your back. Don’t get me wrong, we want you to be independent without us, too, it’s just that we want that sense of independence and individualism to thrive because we’ve provided an additional foundation of support for you to grow on. Remind us of how we enable that for you. It’s affirmation for us. “I feel so supported by you – I can do anything on my own, but knowing I have you in my life and that you have my back makes gives me that extra confidence.”

    It sounds really nice, but what’s the catch?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @J:
    I honestly don’t know what a spoonerism for pleonasm means.
    Anyway, I didn’t write this as something making fun of your comment, but rather suggesting that this was a thruth spoken from a female opinion.
    “I think the drive comes from the opposite direction. On an evolutuonary basis, I needed a father for my kids, that he has turned to be a good longterm mate is the bonus. The didn’t consolidate that; they drove it.”
    We’re basically talking about the same things, mirrored from the other side.
    As for the evolutionary side, starting from the hunter gatherers type of societies, I hope it’s a given by now that we’ve moved beyond. Perhaps my “nature in motion” phrasing was wrongly interpreted.

  • J

    I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?

    Mrs. Lanza was killed with her own gun.

  • Just1Z

    “So, co-hab is better for the man in the sense that it allows him an easier exit at a time when he is more likely to want one and to benefit from it.”

    it’s also better for the man if the woman causes the exit.

    so, it’s better for the man, and until there’s a correction to bring balance (one way or another) marriage is going to continue to be a poor choice for men.

  • Just1Z

    and….here…..s Roissy (well, okay ‘chateau heartiste’)

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/older-moms-and-divorced-moms-raising-generation-of-psychopaths ?

    a couple of good links to inspire thought. the comments, as usual, are more of a mixed bag.

    also regarding autism etc with older parents, polymath makes a good point
    http://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/autism-and-older-fathers-garbage-on-page-1/

    The details reveal that the researchers found
    (1) a correlation between paternal age and extra mutations in the child
    (2) a correlation between paternal age and autism or schizophrenia in the child

    but no evidence is given that the excess mutations are causing the autism, although certain slippery sentences insinuate that; no factor analysis shows that excess mutations have independent explanatory power for the autism frequency after the older-father effect is accounted for.

    Yet another case of correlation being claimed to be causation.

    There is an obvious alternative explanation: men with social deficits, who are known to be more likely to have autistic children, also marry later than average.

    Am I the only one who noticed this?

    apparently ‘yes’ (at least in feminist circles, you know the sciency, deep thinkers).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How interesting that Roissy links to a 2010 article about autism rising with mother’s age while ignoring 2012 articles about father’s age. In any case, let’s not turn this into an anti older dad debate. I haven’t heard anyone suggest such a thing about Lanza.

      Saying that this profoundly psychotic kid was pushed over the edge by divorce and fatherlessness that occurred 3 years ago is ridiculous. Kids who grew up with him said he was an antisocial kid at age 5.

      Ironic that he had been home-schooled.

  • Ted D

    J – “Mrs. Lanza was killed with her own gun.”

    I’ll risk it. ;-)

  • J

    I honestly don’t know what a spoonerism for pleonasm means.

    A spoonerism is an error in speech or deliberate play on words in which corresponding consonants, vowels, or morphemes are switched–flutterby for butterfly or pleonasm for neoplasm (an abnormal mass of tissue like a tumor).

    Anyway, I didn’t write this as something making fun of your comment, but rather suggesting that this was a thruth spoken from a female opinion.

    I understood that, but I think we have a chicken vs, egg disageement.

    We’re basically talking about the same things, mirrored from the other side.

    Right. What I am saying is that the female need for comitment springs directly from incapacitation during pregnancy and motherhood. Most of us want a man when that’s done, but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.

  • Just1Z

    “but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.”

    true, as long as the state picks up the bill (so men (and women) at large), or you can shank him for child payments even if he flatly said that he didn’t want the kid. and don’t try the tired old crap about ‘he shouldn’t have had sex if he didn’t accept fatherhood’. there are all kinds of accidents and lies that women can opt out of / duck but the man can’t. how about a little equality there? where are the equality seeking feminists there? lmfao

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1Z

      true, as long as the state picks up the bill

      You’re missing the point. Nearly half of American households have a female as the primary breadwinner. Women are more capable of supporting themselves than ever. This is why the “beta provider” strategy for marriage no longer makes sense.

      I have no idea why you’re ranting against feminists, but I don’t believe there are any present.

  • JP

    Mrs. Lanza was a survivalist.

    She trained her son in firearms.

    “Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse.

    She is reported to have been struggling to hold herself together and had been stockpiling food, water and guns in the large home she shared with her 20-year-old son in Connecticut.

    Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html

  • JP

    @J

    “The didn’t consolidate that; they drove it. I think much of gray divorce is not driven by women being “unhaaaappppyyyy” as much as it is driven by the evaporation of the need for a man to be involved with kids.”

    It was my understanding that the older woman generally changed from having her husband as her “best friend” to having her daughter as her “best friend”, thereby reducing the intensity of the husband-wife bond in the later years.

  • Escoffier

    So, J, then you would have to conclude that marriage serves its purpose for women once the kids are grown, and after that, she’s good to go?

    Stilll leaves hanging out there the problem that, at that later age, men’s average SMV is higher than women’s. So saying goodbye to hubby because the child-rearing is over, aside from being crass and immoral, is not likely to work out for wifey. Except to the extent that she can take assets and bilk him for alimoney. But finding a comparable or superior mate? Very unlikely. Ending up alone? Very likley–and not nearly as desired as feminist propaganda makes it out to be.

  • J

    @Just1Z

    Roissy’s take is unsurprising and classic Roissy. IME in working with mentally ill adolescents, parents and their behavior are a factor perhaps 50% of the time. A lot of the rest is biochemical. The facts aren’t in on Adam Lanza. I’m seeing claims of Asperger’s, schizophrenia, and fetal alcohol syndrome. I wouldn’t jump to blaming the divorce at this point. In fact, it may well be that Adam’s illness broke up the marriage. It’s not unusual that fathers especially walk away from a marriage that has that added pressure.

    Polymath: There is an obvious alternative explanation: men with social deficits, who are known to be more likely to have autistic children, also marry later than average.Am I the only one who noticed this?

    Actually Simon Baron-Cohen beat Poly to this notion, but I don’t find the two theories to be mutually exclusive. The effect of aging on the rate of new mutations IS an added risk factor. What Poly is saying is like saying alcoholism has been linked to throat cancer so its OK to smoke, when in fact the synergistic effect drinking and smoking more than doubles the chances of getting throat cancer.

    I would not be surprised if earlier marriage among the less socially skilled lessened the number of cases of autistism and their severity.

  • Ted D

    JP – although I’m not surprised that she was a “prepper”, that doesn’t mean everyone that is concerned about civil unrest is batshit crazy. For that matter, not every person that owns multiple guns is part of a militia either.

    It isn’t guns or emergency preparedness that makes people do this kind of stuff. I know PLENTY of people you might call “preppers” that are far from crazy. Paranoid? Maybe. But, just because you are paranoid does NOT mean “they” aren’t watching you…

  • J

    It was my understanding that the older woman generally changed from having her husband as her “best friend” to having her daughter as her “best friend”, thereby reducing the intensity of the husband-wife bond in the later years.

    Maybe, but I don’t know that the husband is ever the real best friend of most women. It’s generally another woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wikipedia cites a major cause of gray divorce: Hubby retires and is now on the scene wanting his every need met 24/7 lol. “Honey, what’s for lunch?”

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Susan:
    “A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person. ~Mignon McLaughlin”
    “Implied in this message is that you fall out of love as well. Marriage makes you much more likely to stick it out”
    Both observations are wonderfully right, and at the core of the problem when both parties start it out as “passionate” but need to transform it into something more “rational” once into the committed long term relationship reality. Again, I don’t know if marriage alone solves these problems and cement the relationship further.

    @J
    “Most of us want (stressed in bold) a man when that’s done, but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.”

    Now all of a sudden I suspect the chicken is for you red, for me green, and the multi coloured egg is already blown up by some AK45.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      Again, I don’t know if marriage alone solves these problems and cement the relationship further.

      I don’t think marriage solves any problems – it’s just that we’re more likely to figure out ways to solve them if we’re legally joined. One thing that would help is if people reduced their expectations of marriage. Women in particular have bought into the whole “soulmate” myth of marriage, with “happy ever after” – no marriages deliver uninterrupted bliss.

      Although as someone else pointed out, men do say they are delaying marriage until they meet “the one.” Nothing wrong with waiting for a really good match, as long as what we require is realistic.

  • J

    So, J, then you would have to conclude that marriage serves its purpose for women once the kids are grown, and after that, she’s good to go?

    For which women? I’ve seen some women become very happy widows and divorcees. I’ve seen others want to jump in the grave after their husbands. It seems to me that the dividing line has a lot to do with the quality of the relationship and the personality of the woman.

    Stilll leaves hanging out there the problem that, at that later age, men’s average SMV is higher than women’s. So saying goodbye to hubby because the child-rearing is over, aside from being crass and immoral, is not likely to work out for wifey.

    Again it depends. I know women who are perfectly capable of supporting themselves fairly well and do fine financially. I also know others who have little sex drive after menopause and don’t really care much about male companionship. Side from the morality of the issue (and I wasn’t advocating that women leave; I was explaining the phenomenon), many women who divorce do so because the problems and inconveniences of marriage have come to outweigh the joys. If I were give men some sisterly advice for how to have a long and happy marriage, I’d say the best bet for a wife is a woman with a high post-menopausal sex drive and enough mannish interests to motivate her to want/need a male buddy. I think that those women are the ones most likely to appreciate a guy after the kids are gone. There has to be something other than the kids to hold a marriage together these days.

    Except to the extent that she can take assets and bilk him for alimoney.

    Actually, the women I know who are doing best post divorce have professions or inheritances. Few women get alimony in my state and CS is not, by definition, an option for gray divorcees.

    But finding a comparable or superior mate? Very unlikely. Ending up alone? Very likley–and not nearly as desired as feminist propaganda makes it out to be.

    I don’t know that every gray divorcee is looking for that. Even the ones who have BFs are not necessarily looking to remarry or even live with someone again. Those who are financially indepedent often just want some sex and companionship, not a fullblown relationship.

  • Just1Z

    @J
    I agree that there’s more to know. the problem is that I doubt the media’s interest in getting to the truth. they are straight on to the gun control narrative (UK and US). that’s as far as their curiosity extends.

    I’d like to know if the kid had been on ritalin and the like earlier in life? maybe he just got ‘it’ (insanity) from his mom? how nasty was the divorce? four to the head is beyond ‘normal’ murder (whatever that may be), there’s some deep hatred going on. the kids though? hell, I’ll never understand any ‘reason’ given there.

    the link I have for suicide rates etc can be found by searching for ‘rebukingfeminism suicide’, the result I looked at was from 2009, but it is a little close to the knuckle in places – not for the squeemish. So, no direct link.

    I also agree with you over older parents. older guy probably correlates with socially awkward. also correlates with older woman. so both parents are likely old and probably a little awkward.

    his point was the crap science displayed (slippery sentences enabling the hard-of-thinking to jump to desired ‘conclusions’), my point (earlier posts here) was the glee with which feminists grabbed the ‘older dad’ bit and ran with it, leading to “older men can’t have children because genetics” – the pinnacle of feminist logic and science whenever menopause is mentioned.

  • J

    Now all of a sudden I suspect the chicken is for you red, for me green, and the multi coloured egg is already blown up by some AK45

    What’s so hard to understand? I’m saying that women who stay with their husbands after the need for financial and parenting support dries up may actually love them. What’s the problem with that?

  • Just1Z

    @J
    “I don’t know that every gray divorcee is looking for that. Even the ones who have BFs are not necessarily looking to remarry or even live with someone again. Those who are financially indepedent often just want some sex and companionship, not a fullblown relationship.”

    sounds cool… just sayin’

  • Escoffier

    Wow, J, maybe I am reading you wrong, but it sounds like you have totally bought into the whole cult of modern divorce. Bottom line, if she wants to, it’s A-OK!

    Might I be a little bit retrograde and suggest that the women you are describing had no goddamned business getting married in the first place?

  • Just1Z

    “How interesting that Roissy links to a 2010 article about autism rising with mother’s age while ignoring 2012 articles about father’s age.”

    where you linked to the father’s age and not the mother’s… lmao

    as J said, this was vintage stuff for that site. I wasn’t making a scientific claim of credentials, just pointing out vintage Roissy making points that might be of interest

    anyway, g’night. I am fighting my way to the end of a loooong book that has failed to inspire delight so far, but cannot just be dropped. “The Great North Road”, by Peter F Hamilton – wish me luck. Many of his other books have been big and impressive…this one is just big (so far)

  • JP

    “You’re missing the point. Nearly half of American households have a female as the primary breadwinner. Women are more capable of supporting themselves than ever. This is why the “beta provider” strategy for marriage no longer makes sense.”

    At a median salary of $27,000?

    http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

  • Escoffier

    “You’re missing the point. Nearly half of American households have a female as the primary breadwinner. Women are more capable of supporting themselves than ever.”

    Susan, this is only true once you factor in the gigantic array of state and corporate support for single motherhood. How many of these fabulous “working women”–they are not all middle or even senior management, you know–could REALLY make it “on their own” without state or company subsidized day care and the like?

  • Just1Z

    “Nearly half of American households have a female as the primary breadwinner. ”

    Single mothers are pretty much guaranteed to be the primary breadwinners (doh! :) ) and it doesn’t mean that they’re not getting benefits and/or child support from (involuntary) dad.

    g’night again

    (I’m not ranting, you haven’t seen me ranting (okay, possibly not true, but I’m not doing that tonight :) ) – I’m actually in a really good mood and laughing as I type – and I haven’t evem opened a bottle of wine yet(!))

  • Just1Z

    @Escoffier
    you go guy, and I’m gone

  • Damien Vulaume

    @J: “Women who stay with their husbands after the need for financial and parenting support dries up may actually love them.”
    Nothing so hard to understand. I agree. I was not talking about. Period.

  • JP

    “Susan, this is only true once you factor in the gigantic array of state and corporate support for single motherhood. How many of these fabulous “working women”–they are not all middle or even senior management, you know–could REALLY make it “on their own” without state or company subsidized day care and the like?”

    At least in the legal field, the corporate clients want to see a certain level of minority and female participation in the legal team in order for the firm to obtain the legal business.

    However, an aging woman attorney’s LMV (Legal Market Value) often drops along with her SMV in the still male-dominated field of private law firms. Why spend all day working with a 50 year old woman when you can work with a 30 year old woman?

    Which means that lots of less attractive 45+ year old woman attorneys end up on the industrial scrapheap for reasons of declining SMV.

    Law is a bizarre industry.

  • Escoffier

    BTW, when companies offer in-house or subsidized outside day care, they always sell it as part of their overall effort to be a supportive employer. It’s a perq, you see, a benefit to working at that enlightened company.

    And no doubt many of the people who run those programs see them exactly that way. But there are crasser calculations at work, too.

    For one thing, such programs are good PR, good at posititioning the company on the “right side” of feminism, hence good at boosting its overall image, especially with women. It’s also a form of preemptivev pay-off. The more you anticipate and give in to shake-down type demands, and couch surrender as freely chosen virtue, the less likely you are to be the target of boycotts and bad press.

    Second, don’t doubt that hard monetary calculation goes into this. Companies know what they spend on these perqs and they know what they spend on employees, including single women with children. They have done the math know that day care+single mom wages = less than paying a man who needs that salary to support a family. On an individual level, of course, no one is making this calculation but on a mass, workforce level it was made decades ago. And now big business has a vested interest in keeping it going.

    Female workforce participation has depressed overall wages. It’s one of the main reason that real wages have stagnated for 40 years. But “productivity” and profitability, overall, have risen. The money that used to be paid in wages has been redistributed up.

    Immigration has the same effect, as it is intended to do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      At my daughter’s company, there is a doctor’s office staffed with one MD and two NPs. It’s walk in for all employees – everything from colds to fevers, strep testing, etc. They prescribe antibiotics and other meds. No cost to the employee. It is brilliant – people come in to work if they’re on the fence, often get treatment when they otherwise wouldn’t, and productivity has gone way up as a result with many fewer sick days and people going home unwell.

  • Escoffier

    “Wikipedia cites a major cause of gray divorce: Hubby retires and is now on the scene wanting his every need met 24/7 lol. ‘Honey, what’s for lunch?'”

    Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.

      Obviously I am not saying that. I’m saying that a lot of couples apparently have trouble transitioning to being together all the time. In marriages where the man worked long hours, I think this is particularly hard, because he may not have had time to develop other interests. Now he is bored and lonely, looking to his wife for all his needs. It’s not a good reason to divorce, unless they just don’t like each other anymore, and both want it.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Women are more capable of supporting themselves than ever. This is why the “beta provider” strategy for marriage no longer makes sense.”

    It still works in the field of medicine.

    I know of a young psychiatrist and a radiation oncologist who acquired permanent SAHM wives this way.

    However, this only works when you have a nice six figure salary.

  • Ted D

    J – “If I were give men some sisterly advice for how to have a long and happy marriage, I’d say the best bet for a wife is a woman with a high post-menopausal sex drive and enough mannish interests to motivate her to want/need a male buddy.”

    And how exactly is a guy supposed to land this awesome woman? I can see how it may be easy to find a woman with “manly” interests, but how in the hell would she or he know how “high drive” she will be post-menopause? I mean, if you marry her when she is 30, you’ve still got a good 10 to 15 years before you know what you’ll end up with for the rest of your married life, and to be honest the idea that she may completely fizzle out on the sex drive side of the relationship is pretty freaking scary.

    That being said, if more women took the job of “regular, decent sex” for their husbands seriously regardless of her actual drive to HAVE sex, this wouldn’t be much of an issue. But of course, we can’t go telling women that it is their “duty” to sex up their husbands. It sounds WAY too much like an obligation, and I’ll add demeaning to women that all their husband wants is a piece of ass. Nevermind the fact that he agreed to marry you accepting that YOU would be his only sexual release (other than solo acts of course) for the REST OF HIS LIFE… But hey, if you don’t really want sex anymore, he should be good with that. Right?

    Does having to have sex with your husband even though you aren’t really horny one of those “inconveniences of marriage” you mentioned?

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    “Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.”

    Rofl.
    I see the fancy liberal arts degree taught critical thinking and problem solving skills that rival those of the greatest philosophers.

  • J

    I’d like to know if the kid had been on ritalin and the like earlier in life?

    No idea though I did se that he had been on an anti-psychotic med.

    maybe he just got ‘it’ (insanity) from his mom? how nasty was the divorce?

    Again, no idea.

    four to the head is beyond ‘normal’ murder (whatever that may be), there’s some deep hatred going on. the kids though? hell, I’ll never understand any ‘reason’ given there.

    The voices in his head said to do it. There’s nothing to understand.

    I also agree with you over older parents. older guy probably correlates with socially awkward. also correlates with older woman. so both parents are likely old and probably a little awkward.

    She was 52 and has at least one older son of 24. She’d have been 28 when she had him and probably married for a few years at that point. IDK dad’s age.

    his point was the crap science displayed (slippery sentences enabling the hard-of-thinking to jump to desired ‘conclusions’), my point (earlier posts here) was the glee with which feminists grabbed the ‘older dad’ bit and ran with it, leading to “older men can’t have children because genetics” – the pinnacle of feminist logic and science whenever menopause is mentioned.

    Whatever the political ramifications are, younger is better for both sexes physiologically.

  • Escoffier

    I see your education, whatever it was, placed a lot of emphasis on reading comprehension.

  • JP

    “Female workforce participation has depressed overall wages. It’s one of the main reason that real wages have stagnated for 40 years. But “productivity” and profitability, overall, have risen. The money that used to be paid in wages has been redistributed up.”

    Weren’t women and children often preferred in industrial revolution England because they were cheaper and more docile than men?

    At least that was my historical understanding of 19th century Britain.

    http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/IndustrialRevolution/womenandchildren.htm#.UM95km_Ae2A

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    Laughing with you not at you.
    I thought it was funny.
    Made a jab at single moms.

    I can see how you read it though.

  • J

    Wow, J, maybe I am reading you wrong, but it sounds like you have totally bought into the whole cult of modern divorce. Bottom line, if she wants to, it’s A-OK!

    Yes, you are in fact. I’m explaining why a subset of women get gray divorces; you and some others are confusing that with advocacy. I belive that Susan is doing the same. Although I can not speak for her, I believe that one thing she and I share is a genuine liking for our husbands and a large likelihood of lifelong marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, you are in fact. I’m explaining why a subset of women get gray divorces; you and some others are confusing that with advocacy.

      This is an important point. Understanding why people do things is obviously not the same as advocating that behavior. I’ve also read that a lot of grey divorce happens when the kids are grown, but reflect problems such as infidelity that occurred while they were young. IOW, people who stay together for the kids don’t feel the need to do so once the kids leave the nest. I would not blame either party for a delayed divorce for something that violated the marriage contract years before.

  • J

    Ironic that he had been home-schooled.

    By a gun “hobbyist” who was preparing for the “big collapse”? Yeah, no coincidences there…..

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Amazing how the female mind always goes right to control. No. There isn’t. How is it that with more than 6,000 years of written history to peruse, anyone still thinks human action can be controlled.
    I meant control in the sense mass killings being a first world phenomena there should be something other cultures have that makes them avoid it, As violent as my country is people kill in the fit of passion is almost unheard of having someone plotting killing people for days or weeks and doing so.
    Really Vox don’t try to claim the “female mind” card every time you feel like it without checking for clarification, specially after you made a faulty connection with “mass killings is a result of race” with no proof of AA doing the massive killings in the same numbers. It makes you look bad ;)

  • Escoffier

    I have read, I forgot where, that this was a major problem for a certain generation in post-war Japan. Basically the men worked all the time and were never home and the women never worked. Spouses rarely saw one another. Then suddenly the men retired and started staying home and both spouses were like “Who the hell ARE you?”

    This being Japan, few actually got divorced.

  • J

    Actually, these are better question for DH than for me. ;-)

    I mean, if you marry her when she is 30, you’ve still got a good 10 to 15 years before you know what you’ll end up with for the rest of your married life, and to be honest the idea that she may completely fizzle out on the sex drive side of the relationship is pretty freaking scary.

    I think women who enjoy sex at 30 are more likley to still enjoy it at 60 than women who merely accomodate their husbands.

    Nevermind the fact that he agreed to marry you accepting that YOU would be his only sexual release (other than solo acts of course) for the REST OF HIS LIFE… But hey, if you don’t really want sex anymore, he should be good with that. Right?

    Yikes, Ted, don’t shoot the messenger. I got into this convo explaining that more goes wrong in a marriage than a desire to collect “cash and prizes,” not to advocate sexless marriages. I would agree that it is unfair to expect that one will be another person’s only outlet for sexual release and then deny them that release as a matter habit.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    “Wikipedia cites a major cause of gray divorce: Hubby retires and is now on the scene wanting his every need met 24/7 lol. ‘Honey, what’s for lunch?’”

    Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.

    I suppose that’s one consolation for being a late-marrying, socially awkward father of an autistic son. I learned to do for myself; my wife won’t leave me for that reason!

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    My husband and I have lots of interests in common, and we spend as much of our weekends together as we can. We are each other’s best friend and confidant by far.

    Though, I’m now a little worried about autism! We’re both nerdy people inclined toward some obsessive compulsions. I hope the fact that we’re high-empathy, Feeling types will lower the risks a bit.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Anacaona:

    “Amok” is from the Malay. A quiet, unassuming man starts cutting on everyone around him until stopped. No telling how much planning is involved.

    It happens in China, too.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910
    I don’t know if the Chinese have a particular word for the phenomenon.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I’m saying that a lot of couples apparently have trouble transitioning to being together all the time.”

    I’d imagine that is because they didn’t spend much time together prior to retirement. I saw a LOT of that growing up, and it always baffled me. Why marry someone you don’t want to spend time with? We aren’t waiting for retirement to do stuff together, and in fact are already talking about how much MORE time we can spend together in another 6 years once we have no more minor children in the house. There will be no “empty nest” syndrome in our home. We will simply transition from “stay at home family” to “couple globetrotting” if all goes as planned. Shit, I’m actually looking forward to the next decade, provided the country doesn’t go to hell before then. :P

    J – “Yikes, Ted, don’t shoot the messenger.”

    Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be directed at you per se, but you made the post so… Plus it’s been a real Monday, so I’m not in the best mood. I realize you aren’t promoting such behavior.

  • J

    “but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.”

    true, as long as the state picks up the bill (so men (and women) at large), or you can shank him for child payments

    The subject was gray divorce; they’d have to shank him for grandchild payments .

  • J

    @Hope

    I’d imagine that having Feeler parents is significant protection against autism. I don;t know if anyone has ever attempted to correlate MBTI scores with autism, but I’d guess that Thinkers are more likely to have autistic kids.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Susan:
    “I don’t think marriage solves any problems – ”

    Of course Susan, I didn’t mean it that way, nor do I think that long term relationships solves it either. We’re not meant to meet each other (men women) on earth to solve our own individual problems. That’s always been one of my biggest dissent about American culture, but that’s another debate.
    “It’s just that we’re more likely to figure out ways to solve them if we’re legally joined.”
    I agree, but “legally or not” is another debate.
    “Women in particular have bought into the whole “soulmate” myth of marriage, with “happy ever after” – no marriages deliver uninterrupted bliss. ”
    I guess some of the most seemingly mysoginistic comentators here would surprisingly agree with you, once they would for once lower their silly “man guard” and female bashing style of speech.

  • J

    I realize you aren’t promoting such behavior.

    OK, good.

  • J

    I’d imagine that is because they didn’t spend much time together prior to retirement. I saw a LOT of that growing up, and it always baffled me. Why marry someone you don’t want to spend time with?

    I think it was very common in lower SES couples, especially those with narrowly defined sex roles and therefore no common interests. My folks were like that for awhile. They had a lot of same sex friends and then his died. Then he was constantly underfoot, and he drove her nuts. Then they eventually figured out things to do together–golf, bowl, cook, dance–and a new equalibrium was obtained.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    J – “If I were give men some sisterly advice for how to have a long and happy marriage, I’d say the best bet for a wife is a woman with a high post-menopausal sex drive and enough mannish interests to motivate her to want/need a male buddy.”

    Could evidence of this high sex drive be compiled during an extended pre-marriage co-hab period? I just finished “The Sex Diaries”, Bettina Arndt’s interesting analysis of sexual issues that plague many marriages, and a recurring theme seemed to be that the husband looked at the high-frequency/high-quality sex period enjoyed during courtship and extrapolated from this to forecast what marriage would be like.

    Perhaps both parties could make better decisions if the true, long-term sexual condition of the relationship was known in advance. One would think that it would be very difficult for either party to conceal true sexual appetite default levels during, say, a three-year co-habitation. If the sex did go into a scary decline during that period, I suppose that the couple should in fact avoid marriage and count themselves fortunate that they did.

    Arndt’s book suggests that men receive little social support when trying to contend with a marriage which offers them meager sexual opportunities; the counseling community basically advises men that this is inevitable, that the relationship should “evolve” and “mature” to favor largely asexual companionship punctuated by infrequent sex, and so on.

    Others might say that men need to game their wives and adopt various social dominance or influence tactics, but this seems like a band-aid solution, and it still allows for a sexless default state—a man who successfully games his wife may end up feeling little genuine validation of his real attractiveness, and could even end up with PUA-type cynicism.

    So…are there practical, reliable preventative steps that men can take to manage this risk and uncover real sexual compatibility? Speaking for myself, it has made the whole “commitment” thing much more frightening than it probably needs to be. What would the women here suggest that men do during the pre-marriage phase to feel more confident in their forecasts of what their love lives will be like post-marriage? Is an extended co-hab going to provide good indications of what to expect…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      So…are there practical, reliable preventative steps that men can take to manage this risk and uncover real sexual compatibility? What would the women here suggest that men do during the pre-marriage phase to feel more confident in their forecasts of what their love lives will be like post-marriage?

      My suggested steps – they apply equally to both sexes:

      1. Make sure that sexual compatibility is very strong, and that you are on the same page re frequency, variety, pace, etc. Any minor discrepancies now will magnify one hundred fold over time. Unless you can say, “I am extremely satisfied with my sex life” you should not contemplate cohabitation much less marriage.

      2. Make sure that conflicts are dealt with promptly and with generosity and flexibility when they arise. Simmering conflict, or an undercurrent of resentment, will kill female sex drive. Select a mate whose emotional state is compatible with your own. No mixing emo or high drama types with avoidant or low drama types.

      3. Understand that every couple, no matter how in love, sexual or gorgeous, is going to experience some waning of sexual excitement. The novelty wears off, it’s inevitable. In my experience it is replaced by something wonderful, though less exciting/dopamine producing. Different people have different levels of tolerance for dopamine fluctuation.

      4. As per Fisher, ramp up the dopamine producing activities in the relationship. Being active, fit, adventurous, etc. will make both parties more interested in sex. Provide opportunities for your SO to see you being masterful and masculine, or easygoing, fun and feminine. Create opportunities to have fun together. Laugh together.

      5. The toughest period is when kids are young. No more mornings spent in bed, no more spontaneous sex at all times of day. Sex becomes something you have at night when you’re tired, in the few hours between the kids falling asleep and the kids waking up. If you’re lucky enough to have grandparents who will take them, maximize your opportunities for weekends away. Over time, things get better, but you really won’t have full run of the house until the nest is empty.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/opinion/sunday/the-downside-of-cohabiting-before-marriage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Women are more likely to view cohabitation as a step toward marriage, while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment, and this gender asymmetry is associated with negative interactions and lower levels of commitment even after the relationship progresses to marriage. One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.

    I agree with this 100%

    People view cohabitation as a convenient living arrangement for couples and as “marriage-lite”.

    As a former cohabitator I have lots of opinions on it. Personally, for me I’d rather live with a roommate than someone I’m dating. Full stop. It’s a pill that goes sour. IMO, it’s better to be engaged or married before tying your lives together in that way. With someone you’re building a life with there’s a sense of permanence that isn’t there when your just dating.

  • Mike C

    Female workforce participation has depressed overall wages. It’s one of the main reason that real wages have stagnated for 40 years. But “productivity” and profitability, overall, have risen. The money that used to be paid in wages has been redistributed up.

    Immigration has the same effect, as it is intended to do.

    Escoffier,

    I agree with you on this, but I think one has to mention globalization in the same breath when talking about depressed wages. Arguably, global competition has depressed wages more than female workforce participation. One could argue that the U.S. middle class experience of 1945-1970 was the anomaly in the scope of broader human history:

    http://alephblog.com/2012/12/11/of-servants-and-robots/

  • Mike C

    Wow, J, maybe I am reading you wrong, but it sounds like you have totally bought into the whole cult of modern divorce. Bottom line, if she wants to, it’s A-OK!

    Maybe I am reading J wrong as well, but in some of these “descriptions” there is something quite mercernary, cold and calculating about it all. Again, the man is just a character in the cast of the script of the woman’s life to meet her needs.

  • Mike C

    J,

    I just read some of your follow-up clarifying comments explaining you weren’t advocating so that was my misunderstanding.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    By a gun “hobbyist” who was preparing for the “big collapse”? Yeah, no coincidences there…..

    Maybe on his sick mind he was making a favor, killing them before the collapse came because he was convinced it was going to be worst? Did he harmed his siblings as well? As I mentioned I’m avoiding the details that might make me stop eating and sleeping for the rest of the year.

    I don’t know if the Chinese have a particular word for the phenomenon.

    Is China not part of the first world?

  • JP

    @Anacaona:

    “Is China not part of the first world?”

    No, it’s not.

    It’s the second world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World

  • J

    Maybe on his sick mind he was making a favor, killing them before the collapse came because he was convinced it was going to be worst?

    That’s one of many scenarios that wouldn’t surprise me.

    Did he harmed his siblings as well?

    No. AFAIK, his sole brother hasn’t seen him since 2010.

    I just read some of your follow-up clarifying comments explaining you weren’t advocating so that was my misunderstanding

    Thank you, Mike. I appreciate your correcting your misunderstanding.

  • J

    Could evidence of this high sex drive be compiled during an extended pre-marriage co-hab period?

    Could be, but you never really know someone until you’ve been married a few years. I think even cohabitors are on their best behavior.

    Perhaps both parties could make better decisions if the true, long-term sexual condition of the relationship was known in advance.

    Probably but how? So many things change how a couple relate: kids, illesses, emotional hurts, aging, menopause, declining testerone, work stresses…It’s not that predictable. You pays your money and you takes your chances. You just have to hope you’ve picked someone who is committed to working out problems and know that problems will occur.

    the counseling community basically advises men that this is inevitable, that the relationship should “evolve” and “mature” to favor largely asexual companionship punctuated by infrequent sex, and so on.

    That’s nuts; people have a right to sexual satisfaction within their marriages.

    a man who successfully games his wife may end up feeling little genuine validation of his real attractiveness, and could even end up with PUA-type cynicism.

    Yeah.

    So…are there practical, reliable preventative steps that men can take to manage this risk and uncover real sexual compatibility?

    Assure personal compatibility and good faith first. The other should fall into place.

    Speaking for myself, it has made the whole “commitment” thing much more frightening than it probably needs to be.

    Part of that is where you are hanging out on the net. I think there are far fewer sexless marriages IRL than are represented in the ‘sphere, which aggregates that sort of thing. I think most married women do enjoy sex.

  • INTJ

    I’d argue that post Cold War, it makes more sense to put China in the third world, and limit the second world to Eastern Europe.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    I think three brackets makes more sense. Perhaps something based on per-capita GDP:

    1) Poor $20,000 (e.g. USA, S. Korea)

    In the poor countries, many struggle with subsistence or have few “luxury” items.

    In the medium countries, conditions aren’t easy but most have quite a few luxury items like tv, cell-phones, internet, cars, etc.

    In the rich countries, people have tons of stuff and feel poor if they don’t have a nice new car and a big house.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Somehow my 3 categories got lost–oh, because I used the less-than symbol

    1) Poor lt $5000 (e.g. India, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Nicaragua)

    2) Medium $5000-$20000 (e.g. Mexico, Brazil, Chile)

    3) Rich gt $20000 (e.g USA, Japan, S. Korea)

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Anacaona

    I don’t really want to learn all the details either. I have little to no sympathy for the guy, and little to no sympathy for his mother, depending on how much she made his problems worse.

    My sympathies are with the other victims and their families, much as if they had been in a plane crash or tornado or such. School children are much more likely to get hurt in a bus accident. Improving school bus safety would be a much better use of the public’s time.

    All the attention these shooters should be given is to make sure of their identity (in criminal court), put them down like mad dogs, and dispose of the medical waste in a responsible manner. Guilty by reason of insanity.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Sai

    Tony Martin scares me. Not the actual man, but the situation.

    Actually, his whole story from start to finish makes him sound like kind of a nut. But the treatment he got from his own government probably had something to do with that. He was clearly no murderer by any stretch of the definition. All this from the country that gave us the Magna Carta…

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Put the ampersand (&) before lt and gt to create angle brackets.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Someone: “I’d imagine that having Feeler parents is significant protection against autism. I don;t know if anyone has ever attempted to correlate MBTI scores with autism, but I’d guess that Thinkers are more likely to have autistic kids.”

    Pretty much *all* the INxx couples I know have a kid or two on the spectrum, from mild to moderate. Then again, the ES/EN couples tend to produce socially skilled kids… who do badly in school and have other problems. Mine are highest honors, they just won’t have girlfriends until it’s too late. One of my friends has a socially gifted natural alpha who plays lacrosse in 6th grade… but can barely read.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Sex becomes something you have at night when you’re tired, in the few hours between the kids falling asleep and the kids waking up.”

    After 3 kids: nawp. Maybe if you both work long hours, and subscribe to high-intensity patenting philosophy, of which we do neither. Our longest drought was after her VBAC where there was too much pain for 3-odd weeks. So we just availed ourselves of alternate methods.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      We all know that you’re an extreme outlier re marital sex. I think you’ll find that the phenomenon of marital sex frequency waning while children are young is real for most people. In fact, nature provides for it, lowering T and flooding men with oxytocin after the birth of a child to depress the male sex drive. This is because both parents need to be “working” long hours and parenting intensely when children are young.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Patenting… I love iPad. I love lamp. Parenting!!

  • J

    Pretty much *all* the INxx couples I know have a kid or two on the spectrum, from mild to moderate….

    Really? DH and I are INTJ/P, respectively. Our sons are both extremely bright, musical and relatively social–not A clique, but part of a social group. The older one is a bit STEM-y, but also extraordinarily funny. The younger is athletic and pretty funny as well.

    I sometimes think that humor is what keeps the older boy off the spectrum though.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Bianchi and Casper (2000) have found that nearly 50% of American couples who cohabit do so as a precursor to marriage.

    I read somewhere that if the couple only lives together during the engagement period, their risk of divorce is no higher than if they had waited to move in together. Interesting too, when compared with the Census data on cohabitation:
    http://www.yourtango.com/201179265/census-data-shows-college-educated-couples-less-likely-cohabit

    College-educated couples are less likely to have children in the house when they live together as unmarrieds, and it’s more likely for both partners to work, bringing in two incomes. Another reason is that college-educated cohabiters are more likely to marry within three years of moving in together than couples with less education.

    Further evidence that a college education (and higher SES) innoculates against divorce risk. Still unclear if both spouses need to be college-educated to get the maximum benefit…

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Pretty much *all* the INxx couples I know have a kid or two on the spectrum, from mild to moderate. Then again, the ES/EN couples tend to produce socially skilled kids… who do badly in school and have other problems. Mine are highest honors, they just won’t have girlfriends until it’s too late. One of my friends has a socially gifted natural alpha who plays lacrosse in 6th grade… but can barely read.

    Interesting Hubby is IS and I am EN so I guess kid can go either way? I do get the feeling that men tend to be more introverted thus is likely the kid will be like his father.

  • szopen

    @damien vulaume

    . On an evolutuonary basis, I needed a father for my kids, that he has turned to be a good longterm mate is the bonus.

    Within stable societies, this female drive will be a strong evolutionary push toward preponderance of males who are good fathers and who would want to be good fathers too.

    Quite frankly, I wanted to have children since I saw my former chief playing with his son. My wife didn’t want to get pregnant “so soon”. I always hoped that at the end of my life, I will be at the front of the house i’ve built, sitting on a bench in a garden with trees I have planted, watching dozens of my grandchildren fighting for the sweet grapes from the garden.
    “I want to get my hands dirty building the happiness” seems to vibrate with great many males.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @szopen

      I always hoped that at the end of my life, I will be at the front of the house i’ve built, sitting on a bench in a garden with trees I have planted, watching dozens of my grandchildren fighting for the sweet grapes from the garden.

      This is lovely, I hope you get it!

  • szopen

    @J

    So the late Polish-American action movie star Charles Bronson was literally a “son of a gun”?

    ń is a different sound than n, but then, I really started to laugh after this suggestion. I will add it to my long list of polinglish words and sentences which are funny only to those who know both Polish and English :) (like e.g. “tea- who you – yeah bunny” which evokes paroxisms of laughter from Poles, especially when spoken by English)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I thought Charles Bronson was Lithuanian.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    J and OTC, well that’s both scary and reassuring heh. OTC, do you know any other double INFJ couples?

    I do think INFJ can be Aspie as a mild case, for which one of the symptoms is being too sensitive to certain stimuli. My husband and I are both able to “read” people very well, but sometimes too well, like we literally feel what others are feeling. If someone else is feeling extremely negative, that carries over big time (emotional pollution).

    This is the main source of our introversion, because it really drains us to feel other people’s nervous energy. Otherwise, when comfortable and with those on a similar wavelength, we love talking and find good socializing to be great. So instead of not enough reading of social cues, we read too much. My husband and I always know when the other one is in a bad mood. It makes it easy for us to get in the sexy mood together, because the energy feeds off each other. But sometimes if one of us is off, it throws the other off, too.

  • Just1Z

    @Sai

    Tony Martin was a guy living alone out in an isolated country area in which the police took no effective interest, their response time was far too long to achieve anything. He had been repeatedly robbed (along with others in the area) with no sign of the police doing anything practical about it (the rural nature of the area made this hard to do). Given the kid’s criminal record (mentioned in the wikipedia page that was linked to) it was pretty likely that the police had some idea who they should be looking at regarding the crimewave sweeping the area. It seems Tony Martin felt pushed to doing something himself, but we will never know if he intended to kill. If the fatal shot was the last of the three (IDK), then it could have been that he was aiming for their legs and the early shots caused the gun to ‘climb’ (recoil from the first raised the barrel) – again IDK.

    In the US I doubt that this story would have made more than the front page of the local paper, here it was wall-to-wall frontpage nationally – because they prosecuted him for murder when many saw his stand as reasonable given the circumstances. The 10-2 verdict for murder suggests that the jury heard something pretty compelling about him that reduces his just-an-innocent-guy-on-the-street-in-fear-of-his-life in doubt (IDK what). The Daily Wail (daily mail) is well known for spinning the story to suit its readers’ preference for outrage – they weren’t alone, I’m sure, in ramping up the story in this case.

    The current government has made noises (not any actual laws) that would mean prosecution for such an incident nowdays would be far less likely. Public opinion on sentencing for theft has been recognised (at least for political P.R. purposes).

    Wiki says that he fired three times, so not sure why it mentions shotgun certs vs firearms certs. a 2+1 shotgun (two in the mag and one in the chamber) is legal on a shotgun certificate. maybe the page is failing to mention relevant information(?) from what it says that shotgun could have been shotgun cert legal (no big deal in a farming area, which this was) and he emptied it (2+1 = 3 rounds) with no reloading required to do what he did. If he had ‘arrested’ them using the shotgun then he would have probably been harder prosecuted than them. He had an illegal weapon, they were robbers that had extensive police records for which they had previously received no effective corrective punishment (clearly). This is where the public interest sprang from I reckon – perceived ineffective sentencing of the guilty.

    Civilisation makes a deal with the population; You leave justice to us ‘professionals’ and we regulate your ability to do it yourself. Fine. (Your constitution gives you rights beyond most countries). When civilisation fails to protect, in fact ignores that any problem exists and lets the population pay the price indefinitely…well, this kind of thing is what happens. I’m not saying that what he did was right, but the societal contract was broken by the state first. Add that he was a troubled guy, and there you go. Public support for him was (and is) very real, the public didn’t hear everything that the jury did though…

    I would suggest that the weapons buying wave striking the US is a sign that many private individuals are losing faith that the state will quell the bad guys come the ‘zombie apocalypse’ (PC acceptable term for when the shit hits the fan). They are worried that GC will leave them at the ‘mercy’ of violent, amoral, thieving toe-rags. Given talk pre-election that there could be rioting if B.O. failed to win (this appalled me. this was written about in the press? and not as any big deal that I saw – WTF?), I can’t say that I’m really surprised.

    The state is failing the populace, the populace is realising this and taking corrective measures. It is going to be very interesting what happens if B.O. tries to disarm the good guys…how will the voters split between GC and self-protection? Risky stuff politically, especially as he had been reducing funds for school safety measures over the last few years (a few US blogs are saying).

    The state needs to rebuild trust in that they will be there when they are needed. Currently people are voting with their wallets. I prefer the olden days before police wore stab vests in the UK and some of them have arms available – this started well within my memory.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @407 Just1Z

    I think all the common law countries recognized the right to self defense until recently. It’s a matter of practicality, after all. “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.” The US Supreme Court even ruled that the police have no legal obligation to prevent crime.

    In the Tony Martin case I suspect that the judge gave the jurors very narrow instructions about the law and their responsibilities. This can have a huge effect on the verdict. In the US the verdict in criminal cases must be unanimous.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    My mother always said I was a “good baby.” These days I take it to mean I didn’t give her much trouble. Perhaps that was in contrast with my older brother.

    I suggest that parents with STEM personalities make extra efforts to socialize their babies. This can be particularly difficult with the second child. The first will be talking, and much more fun. If the second is undemanding it is too easy to let him play by himself.

    Opinion is divided on whether this makes any difference, but at least you’ll have fewer lingering regrets.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    IMDB says that Charles Bronson was Lithuanian.

  • Ted D

    J – “I sometimes think that humor is what keeps the older boy off the spectrum though.”

    I’ve said many times that my sense of humor and musical skills are what makes me “normal”. Remember that test posted here some time back on the spectrum? I test very high on it. :P

    My son tested as a ESFP – otherwise known as my polar opposite. I don’t know exactly what his mother tested as, but I remember it started with an E and had no J. *shrug*

  • Dinkney Pawson

    When my daughter was born, my boss commented that “A good mother will drop you like an old sock.” This was pretty much in line with my expectations.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    My autistic son has always been a comedian.

  • Just1Z

    @D.P.
    I remember seeing an article a few years ago that gave analysis on the number of deaths in spree killings in states allowing concealed carry and those that did not.
    AFAICR it concluded that non-CCW state sprees had an average of 9(??? *) extra deaths. that was the extra death toll for having to wait for the police.

    Having said that I don’t really like seeing armed guards around and about airports. The idea of a largely armed populace isn’t especially tempting to me, and I’m not gun averse. I can see why many people want tighter GC, it’s just that I think that it is too late (too many guns out there). You have to make policy based on reality, reality is very hard for politicians to address – and it may not make them popular.

    quote from a UK political comedy of the Thatcher era. Two civil servants (advisors / staff) talking along with a junior guy

    Sir Humphrey: There are four words you have to work into a proposal if you want a Minister to accept it.
    Sir Frank: Quick, simple, popular, cheap. And equally there are four words to be included in a proposal if you want it thrown out.
    Sir Humphrey: Complicated, lengthy, expensive, controversial. And if you want to be really sure that the Minister doesn’t accept it you must say the decision is courageous.
    Bernard: And that’s worse than controversial?
    Sir Humphrey: (laughs) Controversial only means this will lose you votes, courageous means this will lose you the election.

    “Yes minister” / “Yes Prime Minister”

    (*I couldn’t find the article last time I looked).

  • Dinkney Pawson

    The party largely in power in the USA is favored by and cozies up to the fantasy business. And they call themselves the “reality based community.”

  • Just1Z

    @DP
    yep, our ones are currently out of power, but that merely allows them free rein to say ‘free money for everybody, the government are just meanies, we’re nice guys and girls’. to be fair, when they were in power they did spend like there’s no tomorrow, maybe there’s no pretence, they truly are amoral children with daddy’s credit card. as opposed to the clueless buffoons actually ‘in power’.

  • Just1Z

    “The Great North Road” gets a thumbs down, I’m afraid.

    far, far, far too long a book (hardback is 1100 pages) for the story that it tells, basically. far too many flashbacks that add a few interesting details to scenes that we already know the conclusion to. curse you sunk investment of time fallacy that I fell for.

    A few accurate reviews from amazon-uk

    “The Great (?) North Road is to The Reality Disfunction as Noddy and Big Ears Go to Town is to Neuromancer… ”

    “Amongst the padding, the wish fulfilment and the 2D characters arguing over who takes the kids to school, there might just be some interesting ideas here.
    I tried to like this book but it tried even harder to make me dislike it.”

    “I think the idea of the world of St Libra is a good one, and it should have been left at that. This book is a prime example of quanitity over quality. I wonder why the Kindle price suddenly dropped from £10.99 to £2.40? ”
    Me – I paid 99p for a daily deal and I was robbed, robbed I tell you.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @420 Just1Z

    I hate when that happens. I get it more with movies, somehow.

  • Just1Z

    @DP
    yes, but one doesn’t mind losing two hours on a movie quite as much as 1100 minutes (approx) on a book. it ‘got going’ 85% of the way through. the final chapter skipped 250 years into the future after spending 1090 pages on a month or so in its present (and flashbacks). the level of detail in the story was impressive, but not necessary for the story being told. the overall rating is 4/5 from 82 reviews, so maybe it’s just me?

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “Really? DH and I are INTJ/P, respectively. Our sons are both extremely bright, musical and relatively social–not A clique, but part of a social group.”

    Your kids are much older than the kids I’m talking about.

    Hope: “OTC, do you know any other double INFJ couples?”

    Not that I can think of, IxFx men seem *really* rare to me. It’s kinda hard for me tell – us INxx couples don’t have huge social circles.

    Sue: “I think you’ll find that the phenomenon of marital sex frequency waning while children are young is real for most people.”

    I may be an outlier NOW, but not back then. Of course, I understand a short a break, and then some moderate degree of hormonal “waning” – but shutting off the degree you describe (nearly completely), appears to be a matter of scheduling and choice.

    I strongly believe that (barring obvious physical problems) if you’re sleeping in the same bed, then having sex less than every other day is a matter of choice and priorities. Whether it’s 2 months or 2 decades.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      but shutting off the degree you describe (nearly completely), appears to be a matter of scheduling and choice.

      I strongly believe that (barring obvious physical problems) if you’re sleeping in the same bed, then having sex less than every other day is a matter of choice and priorities.

      I never said shutting off, much less completely. I said that sex becomes something you do at night when you are tired. Might be every single night, but the quality of the sex goes down because it tends to be quick and unimaginative. This isn’t inevitable I suppose, but here are the reasons many people have this experience:

      1. Both parties are more tired at the end of a day that includes work and childcare than they used to be before they had kids. There is less pure relaxation in the evenings and more to get done while the kids are asleep. Many working moms do laundry, cleaning and even grocery shopping at 9 pm.

      2. As we get older, it’s harder to get by on less sleep. Long lovemaking sessions, even on worknights, is something that childless 20-somethings do, not new parents.

      3. Weekends go from being relaxing and fun to busy, busy, busy. Before we had kids we slept in, read the paper in bed with coffee, went to museums, on outings, went out to dinner, etc. After we had kids we were unable to do any of those things, aside from the nights we hired a babysitter.

      Yes, you can still have sex every other day, but for most couples the quality and length of the sexual encounter plummets when kids are young. Those are the years of the 15 minute quickie as the go-to move. Frankly, a couple with a baby who confessed they were going at it for hours at a time several times a week would make me question their priorities as parents, assuming they’re not people who get by on 3-4 hours sleep a night.

  • J

    I thought Charles Bronson was Lithuanian.

    Just checked. Wikipedia says both. The border between those two nations has been pretty fluid over the centuries though.

  • J

    @DP

    Usually the second kid is naturally the more social because he or she is born into a family where there is already a built-in frenemy to cope with.

    @Ted

    I think humor saves people because being funny often means being non-literal, non-logical and non-linear as autists often aren’t. It’s an automatic therapy that can take one from spergy to quirky and fun. It’s also most often verbal. People respond well to demonstrations of verbal skill and poorly to demonstrations of spatial/mathematical skill, so there some social proof involved.

  • J

    @Ted

    It just occured to me that if he had tats my son would be Deadmau5. Now I feel scared.

  • J

    @Szopen

    I know a few words of Polish. I could sing “Bye, Bye, Blackbird” in Polish when I was a kid. I have no idea why either the tea thing or “son of a gun” are funny, but I laugh at how “Be there” or “See you there” sound like Bitch, too tight” in English.

  • Ted D

    J – It just occured to me that if he had tats my son would be Deadmau5. Now I feel scared.”

    Deadmau5 is pretty good stuff! Right up there with Skrillex (I know it is probably uncool to “like” Skrillex now that he is kinda popular but whatever…)

    It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out Dub-step is largely “staffed” with very STEMy/Spergy guys. It is super technical, multi-layered, electronic music that can be made by a single person and a computer. I write a fair bit of house/dance/trance stuff when I’m bored. Sometimes while laying in bed next to the wife. She likes a few TV shows I can hardly stomach, so I put on the headphones and rock out the iPad while she enjoys her trash TV. :P

  • Escoffier

    “As we get older, it’s harder to get by on less sleep”

    Anecdotal but completely different from what I have observed. First, in my own life, I was never so tired and lazy as I was as a kid and young adult. It was a huge struggle to get out of bed in HS and I made sure to schedule no morning classes in college or grad school. These days, I find it impossible to sleep in no matter when I go to bed.

    Plus, all the old people I know get up at the crack of dawn and they aren’t going to be early either. Having certain relatives over can be strange, they are up late, I feel rude about leaving them alone to sleep, and then they are invariably up before me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Haha, true, the elderly need less sleep. I’m surprised you’re already struggling with insomnia. I get it when I’m stressed out.

      I can tell you that my ability to pull all-nighters dropped very dramatically between the ages of 25 and 35.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I don’t even understand the TV shows other women watch. Sadly I’m also too sensitive to watch the “good” shows like Game of Thrones. I got way into plotlines and characters’ emotions back when I did watch some shows.

    Not that I have time to watch TV… I’d rather do a quickie with the hubby with the small amounts of free time I have. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Not that I have time to watch TV… I’d rather do a quickie with the hubby with the small amounts of free time I have.

      Yay, a report from the trenches that quickies are the steady diet with infants around!

      Sadly I’m also too sensitive to watch the “good” shows like Game of Thrones. I got way into plotlines and characters’ emotions back when I did watch some shows.

      I’ve finally connected terrible nightmares on Sunday nights with having just watched Homeland. I love that show, but will never watch it just before bed again!

  • Ted D

    Hope – “I don’t even understand the TV shows other women watch.”

    Well to be fair, my wife isn’t watching Jersey Shore. She likes American Idol and the Voice, which I could honestly live without. And she gets sucked into HGTV far too easily for my tastes. :P

    We don’t actually watch much TV honestly. I’d say we share a handful of shows that we watch together. She watches a bit more than I do, but I’m usually sitting with her while she watches it. I don’t mind being in her company doing other things, and she doesn’t mind that I read while she is watching TV. Win/win :D

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Ouch. Popup ad assault on iPad, with close buttons off-screen and slow scrolling speed. This makes me sad.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Popup ad assault on iPad, with close buttons off-screen and slow scrolling speed. This makes me sad.

      It makes me sad too. I’m considering new advertisers.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t have insomnia, I just can’t sleep in like I used to. I have to trouble going to sleep at night.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @426 J

    If the firstborn can monopolize your attention, she will. A child on the autistic spectrum is perfectly happy playing with crib toys.

  • szopen

    @J
    How’s come you could sing in Polish as a kid? Polish friends or partial Polish ancestry?

  • Ted D

    My grandparents did NOT teach my mom and aunts Polish, and I asked as a child and was told no. They said, we came to America to become Americans, and you don’t need to speak Polish here.

    Truthfully, I think they liked that they could talk about us while we were in the room. They used to mutter stuff to each other in Polish, look at us, and chuckle…

  • J

    Deadmau5 is pretty good stuff! Right up there with Skrillex (I know it is probably uncool to “like” Skrillex now that he is kinda popular but whatever…)

    If Deadmau5 and Skrillex got married and adopted my son, he’d be in 7th heaven.

    It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out Dub-step is largely “staffed” with very STEMy/Spergy guys. It is super technical, multi-layered, electronic music that can be made by a single person and a computer.

    Yeah, I think that’s what my son likes about it.

    I write a fair bit of house/dance/trance stuff when I’m bored.

    Cool. You should post a sound file!

  • J

    @Szopen

    My BBF of nearly 5o years is half Polish. Her dad was fluent as his parents were native speakers He also made Polish sausage in his basement and czarnina on holidays.

    @Ted

    They said, we came to America to become Americans, and you don’t need to speak Polish here.

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that Poles were really anxious to Americanize, more so than other immigrant groups. Any idea why?

  • szopen

    @J

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that Poles were really anxious to Americanize, more so than other immigrant groups. Any idea why?

    Poles generally come in two flavours: ultra-nationalists and those, who are somehow embarassed by what they see a burden: martyrology+constant whining+constant bragging

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Skillex christmas lights:

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