Be a Lover Before You Are a Wife

December 14, 2012

The National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia conducted a study exploring men’s feelings about commitment and marriage. 

The men in this study express a desire to marry and have children sometime in their lives, but they are in no hurry. They enjoy their single life and they experience few of the traditional pressures from church, employers or the society that once encouraged men to marry. Moreover, the sexual revolution and the trend toward cohabitation offer them some of the benefits of marriage without its obligations. If this trend continues, it will not be good news for the many young women who hope to marry and bear children before they begin to face problems associated with declining fertility.

The top ten reasons why men won’t commit are:

  1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past.
  2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.
  3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks.
  4. They want to wait until they are older to have children.
  5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises.
  6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.
  7. They face few social pressures to marry.
  8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children.
  9. They want to own a house before they get a wife.
  10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

Let’s focus on reason #2: 

They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.

If a man has a girlfriend who provides all the benefits of a wife, why should he marry? Research shows that cohabiting couples are more likely to have children than they are to marry. I strongly advise women not to live with their partners until they have discussed marriage and feel certain of a future together. Similarly, I would strongly advise a woman not to assume a cohabitor role when you are dating someone without having reached that level of serious commitment.

Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one, leaves a man without a reason to offer you commitment, much less marry. He may enjoy your relationship, and all the perks you provide, only to decide after several years that he just does not feel inspired to marry you. It’s so common it’s a pitiful cliche.

To rouse a man to full commitment, you must inspire him. Otherwise he will see no reason to change his life.

A man does not look at ten women with the understanding that he will marry one of them, and proceed to audition each for the role. A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it. He wants to take her off the market before another man discovers how wonderful she is. 

He must know that you have the self-respect not to debase yourself by performing the duties and responsibilities of a wife when you are in fact just a girlfriend. 

Emotional attraction is created in men when they feel appreciated, and that they have inspired emotional investment in a woman. How can women display emotional investment in a way that inspires reciprocation, and a deepening commitment on his part?

Christian Carter is a dating coach for women, who wrote Why Men Settle Down with One Woman and Not Another 
for eHarmony:

One of the biggest things I teach is about building a solid foundation for a lasting relationship with a man.  And the way to do this is by creating POSITIVE EXPERIENCES with him.  Men can’t be talked into relationships.  The need for commitment arises from an emotional need deep inside a man.  In order for a man to see you as a necessary part of his life, you need to create the right kind of experiences that serve to create emotional attraction in him. 

A positive experience is anything that you both enjoy and that, above all, is fun.  Fight the need to talk about the relationship, and instead turn your attention to creating great moments together.  Do different things with him – play sports along with the usual dinners and movies.  Spend time in groups of friends.  Read the paper together and do spontaneous things without planning.  Mix it up.  All of these experiences show him that you are a woman who is easy and playful to be with, and that’s the kind of woman he’ll realize he’d be a fool to let go of.

This is the most effective strategy a woman can employ. Her efforts should be substantial, creative and fun. Unexpected gestures are the most effective in rousing a man’s feelings. Your goal should be to delight him and instill confidence that these delights are as rewarding for you as they are for him. 

Positive experiences should occur intermittently rather than on a schedule or routine. A well-timed thoughtful surprise, in the middle of the week, is infinitely more effective in creating relationship value through emotional investment than buying his razor blades and socks for a year. 

Positive experiences motivate a man to cherish you. They do not allow you to be taken for granted, because there is no particular expectation, other than that you will continue to be awesome and find new ways to delight him. Do not allow your relationship to become mundane or revolve around expectations that services will be performed on a schedule. You don’t ever want your boyfriend to say, “My girlfriend always takes care of “x” for me,” unless he is referring to his mind-blowing orgasms. 

Here are  examples of positive experiences, both large and small, that I have found effective in rousing men to become more committed in my own life:

Food

  1. Prepare his favorite childhood dish or comfort food. Whether it’s his Nonna’s Sunday gravy, his mother’s pot roast or his dad’s blueberry pancakes, your version probably won’t be as good, but it doesn’t matter. 
  2. Prepare a special “TV Dinner” when there’s a game on that he doesn’t want to miss. Set it up on a small table in front of him, and join him to watch the game and eat together.
  3. Make a picnic during winter and eat it on the floor in front of the fireplace. 
  4. Make a big fuss about his birthday by cooking a special meal, and inviting close friends to share it. 
  5. Send him to work with a bento box filled with something delicious.
  6. Prepare and deliver homemade chicken soup when he is sick. Stick around if he wants company, otherwise serve it, kiss him on the forehead, and go.
  7. Bring him coffee first thing in the morning as he’s waking up.
  8. Plan a meal that you can cook and eat together, and do the shopping beforehand.
  9. Grab a bottle of wine, head to the Farmer’s Market together to buy great food, and then have an impromptu picnic in a pretty spot.
  10. Make breakfast while he dozes, then eat it naked in bed together.

Fun Activities

  1. Score tickets to some quirky event that is all about his interests. 
  2. Ask him to leave a Saturday open and pick him up for a novel adventure, e.g. snowboarding, hiking, even a trip to the beach.
  3. Plan a weekend getaway for the two of you – and pay for it.
  4. Invite him to a family gathering, but only if it promises to be fun.
  5. Take him to hear a favorite author read.
  6. Attend a film festival or vintage movie house.
  7. Almost anything you’ve never done before – you do the legwork and pay.

Nesting

  1. Sex, sex, sex. Switch things up.
  2. Get stuff in at your place to make him comfortable when he stays: a bathrobe, flannel pants, toothbrush, etc.
  3. Wear his shirt. Men like to see women in their big, masculine clothes.Credit: PARAMOUNT PICTURES / Album
  4. Hibernate. In advance of a storm invite him over to get socked in with plenty of provisions, and new lingerie. No electronics.
  5. Take a bubble bath by candlelight, and serve a bottle of Prosecco. Wash his hair.
  6. Learn how to give a real, beneficial back rub and give him one, with oil.
  7. Scratch his back, starting with very light scratches all over his back, getting harder as you go. 
  8. Invite him to bring over his favorite movie of all time.

Gifts

  1. Find a copy of his favorite childhood book. ardizzone
  2. Find a first edition of his favorite adult book.
  3. Find something unusual that he has admired, e.g. tab-collar shirt. wolfe
  4. Add to or inspire a collection. RARESTVintageStarWarsFigures
  5. Make him something. I’ve made scarves, ornaments, pillows, a painting, a table. It doesn’t matter what you make – as long as it’s personally relevant.

Your primary goal is to demonstrate love and affection. You might as well do it in a way that inspires and motivates a man to want more of you in his life. Flattered, pleased and appreciative is not enough.

The years of making a life together will be filled with routine and tedious responsibilities as well as joy. Until then, skip the drudgery and give him something he’ll always remember.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Everything on this list is awesome.

    “Make a big fuss about his birthday by cooking a special meal, and inviting close friends to share it. ”

    +1

    “Bring him coffee first thing in the morning as he’s waking up.”

    Ring worthy.

    “Wear his shirt. Men like to see women in their big, masculine clothes.”

    + a billion.
    Another note, don’t wear other guys clothes (past relationships or family)
    I had an ex that always wore her brothers sweatshirt.

    “Learn how to give a real, beneficial back rub and give him one, with oil.
    Scratch his back, starting with very light scratches all over his back, getting harder as you go. ”

    I’m having difficulty determining which is better here. Leaning towards the back scratch.

    • @Lokland

      I wanted to clarify that it is very important for women to show care and attention to the men they love, just not in the way we were debating yesterday. I truly believe this strategy is far superior.

  • TMG

    Been noticing another trend of articles asking why men aren’t marrying in the media. Yet still no mention of the virulently anti-male laws and family courts that discourage men from marriage. Regardless of how supportive and beneficient women may become, a growing number of men in our society will never get married due to the Sword of Damocles that appears at the neck the minute they say “I do.”

  • I feel like my relationships are always so backwards according to studies like this. For me personally, I love living with a bf without being married. I have been proposed to after having moved in with him. It’s not him that’s not in a hurry to get married, it’s me. I just don’t see the rush. I am perfectly happy being together, living together, and being unmarried.

    I would have an issue with marrying a man before knowing how it is to live with him. If I married him and then found out that’s he is not willing to help me keep a clean house, pitch in with cooking, or pay half of the rent and bills on time, I would not be very happy in that marriage. I have to know before hand that he wants a wife and a wife only and not a wife in the bedroom and a mom the rest of the time to do all of his dirty work for him.

    • I have to know before hand that he wants a wife and a wife only and not a wife in the bedroom and a mom the rest of the time to do all of his dirty work for him.

      This is an interesting statement. What will you be willing to do for your husband, in addition to sex?

  • Escoffier

    First of all, girls, don’t buy him shirts. If you want a detailed explanation of why not, I can provide it.

    Second, the book advice is great. To this day, the best gift I ever received was the Italian edition of Machiavelli’s works, which was the same edition used by the author of my all-time favorite book of scholarship. The reason it was so important is that the scholarly book has literally more than 600 footnotes, with thousands of references to Machiavelli’s books, all paginated to that one Italian edition. So without that edition, using the footnotes and ultimatey understanding the book would have been impossible. The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

    Third, and most important, I see a large contradiction here:

    “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it. He wants to take her off the market before another man discovers how wonderful she is.”

    “He must know that you have the self-respect not to debase yourself by performing the duties and responsibilities of a wife when you are in fact just a girlfriend.”

    Well, ladies, you can take this as gospel or you can consider the words of various men who say that pre-marital signs that you would be a good wife do indeed include the very things that Susan objects to so much.

    Susan, before you straw-man this into “You’re saying a girl has to come over and clean your bathroom by a certain point,” please allow me to explicitly deny that.

    • @Escoffier

      First of all, girls, don’t buy him shirts. If you want a detailed explanation of why not, I can provide it.

      I want the explanation! I just scored three Thomas Pink shirts for my husband at Nordstrom Rack for pennies, and he was thrilled.

      The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

      That is exactly the response women should be going for.

      Well, ladies, you can take this as gospel or you can consider the words of various men who say that pre-marital signs that you would be a good wife do indeed include the very things that Susan objects to so much.

      It is clear that performing wifely duties before marriage lowers the value of marriage, and therefore of the woman. Sex is the biggie, but very few men will wait for that post Sex Rev, so we must turn our attention to the next biggest reason men delay marriage. All the benefits of marriage, not only with cohabitation, but even from a girlfriend who has her own place!

      No man ever proposed in appreciation of a good scrub of anything but his back.

  • Toz

    Anyone else notice the power dynamics are almost exactly the opposite of what they were before the guy and girl start dating?

    Also, this is pretty much the exact advice given to guys from the blue-pill main stream media.

    Projection!

  • I agree with this completely. My modus operandi was never have sex (or do anything naked) with a man who hasn’t said “I love you,” and never move in with a man who hasn’t said “I can see us marrying and having kids.” Oh and he must really mean those things, with other words/actions affirming those statements.

    For creating positive experiences and doing shared fun activities, my biggest thing was playing computer games. My husband loves that I play his favorite games with him while listening to the same music he loves. And I’ve always been into nerdy stuff like D&D, sci-fi, guy movies, etc. I can engage in esoteric conversations for hours, which makes both of us happy.

    Also, sushi. It’s his absolute favorite. He also likes to eat out and try new restaurants. I’m frugal, but this is one thing I don’t turn him down on because I know he enjoys it so much. It’s a good thing we have similar tastes and like similar activities. The online gaming thing keeps our activities “fresh” because there are always new ones and new updates. Plus, the sex ratio is skewed, and girls are very few!

  • Johnycomelately

    Ashley aptly demonstrates that it is women who are eschewing marriage in their sexual prime, not men.

    The study should have been about why men are avoiding marrying post wall Alpha crumbs.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    I’d rather go for the all around approach.
    This stuff is really good.

    I’ve also decided the back scratch is by far preferable.
    Should be noted that working left to right from top to bottom is far preferable and don’t forget to reach around the sides a bit.

    • Should be noted that working left to right from top to bottom is far preferable and don’t forget to reach around the sides a bit.

      Haha, I’m a lover of back scratches too! My husband gives me at least two a day, and I love that feeling of his chasing the itch around and catching it!

  • Lokland

    Note: this trumps doing laundry.

  • Lokland

    Scratch that.

    Circular scratching motion over shoulder blades and upper back.
    Smaller circles moving outwards.
    Then lower back what i said above.

  • @Rollo

    “Be a lover before you are a wife?” I co-sign 100%

    Funny how we reach the same conclusion from very different perspectives. Re cohabitation, I did not say it is never advisable. In my own experience, cohabitation was a greater financial commitment for me than my husband, because we shared all our resources and I was making more, but the truth is that by living together we both saved a ton of money over living separately. It is extremely financially efficient, and therefore quite useful for a couple intending to marry. In our case, our sex life went through the roof, as we were together much more frequently. Highly recommended.

    Relationships last best when you spin more plates or at the very least keep each other at arm’s distance.

    This statement is just so sad and pitiable that I don’t even have to heart to rebut it.

  • Sai

    Food – yay
    Snowboarding – yay
    Arts and crafts – yay
    #4 in the gifts section made me smile.

  • deti

    SW, money quote for the win:

    “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it.”

  • Just1Z

    “8.Invite him to bring over his favorite movie of all time.”

    “Lesbian Spank Inferno”? really?
    Coupling (i.e. not that movie, but where that movie was invented)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKGK2fplV_w

    Patrick (the guy with the hair) thinkks the woman next to him is a lesbian. She thinks he is gay (the hair – duh!)

  • Just1Z

    oh, and the ‘gay’ couple sleep with each other – both thinking that they were hawt enough to convert the other.

    and the clip IS SFW

  • Escoffier

    I have much to say but I am so sick to my stomach over this vileness in Connecticut that I can’t think straight at the moment.

    • @Escoffier

      I had no idea what you were talking about so googled CT news. 18 children, my god.

  • Just1Z

    The feminists must be very proud that
    “1.Sex, sex, sex. Switch things up.”
    is recommended, but cleaning the frigging shower when it’s full of your hair is verboten…

    the religious…not so much

    • @Just1Z

      If a woman fills the shower drain with hair every time she sleeps over, she needs to see a Dr. tout de suite. But your objection to prioritizing sexual variety is duly noted.

  • Escoffier

    Like I said, Sex on the first date? Why not, hook-ups are the gateway to relationships. Do your dishes before marriage? Hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am??!!

    Feminism in a nutshell.

  • Escoffier

    All the way down to Kindergardeners. 5y/o.

    I mean, what do we have to do? Homeschool? I’d hate to take them out but this country is becoming … I don’t know what … or I suspect I do …

  • J

    Great post.

    My only quibble is that I don’t believe in cohabitation before marriage; there’s too big a chance that you will give up all you’ve built for yourself and end up with nothing. I’ve seen people sell homes or condos and get rid of half their stuff only to have to rebuild a year or two later. While I spent loads of time at DH’s before the wedding, the moving van with my stuff arrived after the honeymoon.

    The book did not cost her much money but it was hard to find and it was so out of the blue, I was blown away.

    One of the best things I ever got DH was a signed, out of print book that he’d been hankering for. I paid more for shipping than I did for the book.

    I love this: “A man gets married when he is certain that his life is vastly better with one particular woman in it.” These days, what other reason is there to marry?

    As to shirts (and ties, too), DH returns just about everything I buy unless it is exactly like what he already wears. I can replace existing items, but I never buy anything different. If I want to play Ken doll, I buy for my sons. They love my taste in clothes.

    As to backrubs, DH has a narrow window of sensation that he likes, and it took me years to learn to do it right. He’ll never find another woman who can do it, so BWA HA HA HA HA! He’s screwed without me.

  • Just1Z

    @Just1Z

    my comment was more about changing social standards meaning that cleaning his pipes was preferable to cleaning the pipes.

    but hey, you go for it

  • Mireille

    Taking shortcuts with that “feminism” stuff, are we? It seems to me it has to do with women refusing to do things for a man that he himself won’t do for you in return. I believe it is about not being taken advantage of. Men also do it and it keeps the balance in relationships. People can define what their expectations when they get married, since marriage is a common enterprise.

    Even those “evil” feminists get married and some have healthy relationships; it is about entering marriage knowing all there is to know, and defining stuff before, not just “hoping” it works out and be disappointed because things don’t work out the way you assumed it would. Like Susan said, it is about equity; I’ll do nice things; I hope they’re appreciated, not expected, otherwise they wouldn’t be qualified as nice, would they? They’ll just be a “job”.

  • Suzan.

    Great post. More like this please.

  • Abbot

    .
    11. weeding out sluts is a multi-year process
    .

  • J

    Re the Conn. shooting–

    The shooter appears to have been an emotionally disturbed young man of 24 and his intended victim was his mother. He apparently shoot up her whole classroom.

  • J

    my comment was more about changing social standards meaning that cleaning his pipes was preferable to cleaning the pipes

    Well, one IS more enjoyable than the other. I’ve yet to climax while scrubbing the toilet.

  • The shooting in Connecticut is just awful. I started crying at work and had to stop reading about it. It’s 10 days before Christmas! The kids would have presents waiting for them… that they’ll never open… 🙁

  • Just1Z

    Equity is cool, no problem with that. fair trade and all that is all good.

    again; my comment was about the changing of attitudes in society.

    Susan has previously said that feminists with their, “women can have sex like men”, were wrong. It was not true of many women. now, it seems, it’s less significant than cleaning your own hair out of the shower…wow, bit of a shocker TBH.

    I’m glad women enjoy ‘it’, that they’re not just laying back and thinking of England.

    I don’t recommend that men get married.
    I don’t recommend co-habiting either (all they need to do is redefine marriage as cohabiting for more than X years…cue family court)
    I co-habited before my marriage, I would not ever have considered marrying without that level of sharing of life beforehand. Given that I ended up divorcing the psycho…this article has much to recommend it. lmfao

    • now, it seems, it’s less significant than cleaning your own hair out of the shower…wow, bit of a shocker TBH.

      So many strawmen, and so little time!

  • J

    I can’t imagine anything worse than losing a child.

  • J

    I don’t recommend co-habiting either (all they need to do is redefine marriage as cohabiting for more than X years…cue family court)

    And they will too–if for no other reason than to give baby daddies the same rights and responsibilities as married fathers.

  • Mireille

    “I co-habited before my marriage, I would not ever have considered marrying without that level of sharing of life beforehand. Given that I ended up divorcing the psycho…this article has much to recommend it. lmfao”

    Funny that you don’t consider the possibility that maybe, you should not have co-habited before marrying, it could have brought a different outcome.
    I personally don’t want to co-habit before marriage. I’ll only consider it if a proposal for marriage is made and a date is set for a year from then. I’m the type to just elope anyway. We’ll go get our marriage license and then plan church and party for parents later.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    This post is on the money. The Connecticut shooting is another level of evil. Heinous doesn’t even come close.

  • Rgoltn

    Ashley’s POV that she needs to “test” the guy out before committing to see if he keeps a clean house or helps pay the bills is quite shallow. Living with someone is NOT the same as being married. You can play “house” and share bills, but there is a deeper connection you make when you get married….However, only those who truly commit experience it.

    Now, there is a lot of divorce today and I believe that many people get married for the party, rings, gifts etc. and do not make the emotional committment required to build a solid mariage. I have been married for 17+ years and it has not always been hot sex and fun. Marriage is about compromise and being selfless and there are so many women and men out there who are selfish and unable to give more than they receive. When you get married you have to be 150% “all in.” Living separate, but equal lives does not work. If you bail at the first sign of troubled waters, you should never have married in the first place.

    Also, I have known plenty of people who got divorced after 10+ years because they were living separate lives; just roommates sharing a house and kids together. They did not nourish their relationships and fed them with love, appreciation, sex and support. Being married does not mean one gives up everything about his/herself. However, it does mean that one always considers their partner and family before making numerous decisions. That is being a responsble, married adult. Roommates, fu*k-buddies and those that play being married generally lack that sort of consideration.

    I cannot tell you how often my wife’s divorced or never-married over 40 friends tell her in private how depressed and unhappy they are because they have no man in their lives. Thye fear they will never be deeply loved. They have good jobs & $$, dogs & cats and even kids, but nobody in “their camp” except for 600 Facebook friends and other single, depressed women over 40 with kids, cats & dogs.

    There are plenty of men out there who may keep a messy room, closet, car etc. but are solid guys willing to stand behind their wife, children, in-laws etc. without question. When real-life happens like the horror in CT today or when your mom gets cancer or you lose your job or you end up in the hospital from a car wreck, you do not care if your husband cleaned the kitchen.

    You want to know if he is there for you; keeping you upright, strong and doing the things to ensure that you, your child, your family etc. are taken care of and are helped in getting through the situation. The sad fact is that women like Ashley worry so much about how well a guy keeps a fu*king bathroom clean that they disqualify the ones that matter.

    • @Rgoltn

      +1 on your whole comment.

      I actually have almost zero expectations of my husband around helping in the house. We have a kind of unspoken rule that he cleans up after dinner, but I “work clean” and he rarely has to do anything but stack the plates in the dishwasher.

      If I were working full time I think it would be similar – he wouldn’t do housework, but we’d hire more people to help.

      I do expect him to not throw his stuff around for me to pick up, and that’s never an issue. He is actually neater by nature than I am.

      When our kids were little he did pitch in with them on the weekends, which he enjoyed.

  • Just1Z

    @Mireille
    good for you *hugs* n *kisses*
    seeing as you have all the answers, I’m sure it’ll all work out fine

  • Just1Z

    also, she didn’t move in until after she had proposed and I had accepted, so by Susan’s standards it was all pukka

  • Escoffier

    ^^ If that is true, then it should happen in marriage too, no? And we know that it does but in what % of marriages? “Studies show” that on average married men have more and better sex than unmarried men. Maybe not more than the most successful players but more than average. It may be a meme that marriage=automatic bed death but it does not appear to be universally true.

    In any event, in most any relationship whether married, shacked up or whatever, sex frequency and intensity is likely going to go down as passion inevitably cools, people get older, etc. The standard should not be to keep it at the same white hot level forever but to keep it good (enough) to make both parties happy and the marriage successful.

  • @Rollo

    Your argument would obviously imply the same drop in sex after marriage, in which case the advice would be “don’t get married.” Yet people who cohabit or are married have considerably more sex than singles.

    The fact is that sexual frequency does change over time in most relationships, though not all, and may be affected by many factors. Men who want to remain single and experience sexual variety should obviously not cohabit. Access to sex is actually a very poor reason for cohabiting.

    What guys don’t understand is that they lose their most valuable resources in cohabitation – privacy and their ability to maneuver.

    Why would men in a committed relationship leading to marriage require privacy and room to maneuver? It seems to me that you’re simply saying it’s harder to instill dread when you live with someone and can’t pretend other women are calling you up, chasing you, etc. You are revealed in all your ordinariness, and since you do not trust the woman’s attraction, you are now the one confronting increased anxiety as your cover is blown.

  • J

    The Connecticut shooting is another level of evil. Heinous doesn’t even come close.

    The shooter apparently shot another relative prior to going to the school. I am assuming that he is psychotic. What can you do?

    My kids’ high school runs these “safety drills” that are aimed at being prepared for an atack by a terrorist or psychotic, but I feel pretty certain that if the worst happens those drills will be useless.

  • Mireille

    I personally believe co-habitation is a pale substitute to marriage. People decide to co-habit after they realize they spend a lot of time together at each others place. However, the euphoria of merging lodgings must dissipate quite quick. Moving in with someone when no clear marriage plan has been made is not as charged emotionally as when someone tells you that they are welcoming you in their life for good imo. It truly believe this is why pre-marital sex and co-habitation were shunned in the old age. The newness and energy of a young marriage is what is now put at the early stages of dating. By the time co-habitation comes around, there is not so much crazy enthusiasm and I’m not surprised some women lose interest. Co-habitation is not the same as marriage. Very few couples can maintain such excitement and work at renewing and refueling that energy over the long term.

  • J, those types of people need psychatric help, but unfortunately good care is expensive and often not sought at all.

    Rgoltn, that was a good comment. When we lost our first boy to stillbirth, my husband was right there with me. We are closer now than we were when the “new relationship energy” was high. What we have now is simply irreplaceable.

  • Just1Z

    @J
    “And they will too–if for no other reason than to give baby daddies the same rights and responsibilities as married fathers.”
    that’s right – don’t cohabit.

  • J

    What people don’t understand is that they lose their most valuable resources in cohabitation – privacy and their ability to maneuver.

    FYFY–There’s a huge opportunity cost to women as well in moving in with (or otherwise being exclusive with) a guy who hasn’t committed.

    Look at this poor dumb bitch who wasted 6 years on a man who couldn’t commit:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2247192/My-mortifying-moment-Christmas-party-hell-48-desperate.html

    I have mentioned my friend who is divorcing a narcissist. He somehow conned some dumb slag with two kids into moving him with despite the fact that the divorce is far from being settled. She writes my friend little nastygrams about her dilemma in living with the narcissist who has undoubt promised marriage and the unfairness to her in my friend’s “dragging out the divorce.” My guess is that once the divorce is final, this guy will not be so anxious to commit again. In the meantime, the slag has sold her home, moved her kids in a new home and school district away from their friends and exposed them to a man with serious issues, and has made herself a factor in the lives of two other kids who are in the midst of their own acrimonious family situation. No ring, no date, just a big house that she’ll be kicked out in a few years.

    In the meantime, she could be out meeting a good guy or maybe even patching things up with her ex.

  • J

    that’s right – don’t cohabit.

    It’s a problem for both men and women. Not to invalidate the positive experience of some here, unless there is some firm commitment and a whole lot of trust, it’s a set up for having all the problems of marriage with none of the commitment to solving them.

  • J

    those types of people need psychatric help, but unfortunately good care is expensive and often not sought at all.

    Indeed.

  • Escoffier

    “Athol Kay has built a small financial empire with MMSL due entirely to this not being true.”

    No he hasn’t. He’s built a website to help those for whom it is true. He nowhere claims that such men are the majority of married men or anywhere close. The best data we have suggests it’s not only not true, but that the truth is the reverse.

    I don’t know what the %s are, but even if (say) 20% of men were stuck in a sexless or sexually unsatisfying marriage, that’s still a huge audience in absolute numbers for someone like Athol. Yet 20% would still be only a fraction of all married men.

  • Just1Z

    @J
    I wouldn’t marry without spending a lot of time with a woman first, but I can see where you’re coming from. Both of ‘us’ wanted to live together, my regret (given that we divorced) was that we ever got legally entangled. Splitting after >5 years would always have been painful, but legally simpler if we’d never married. Her dad was still paying off the marriage celebrations that she wanted – but then he was part of what created the problem (imho) so, some justice was had (I guess, fwiw, no real joy here for me).

    I, personally, would never marry someone without having plentiful nooky with them first. But I’m pretty sure that Mireille is correct in that a no-sex-before-marriage marriage between virgins gets the carnal relationship off to a rocking start. In fact you would probably have to use a tyre lever to seperate them for the early days.

    On the whole I’m glad those days are gone, but did we have to go so far with the sex-posi stuff? I don’t see that that has done much for women or society, and men have just adapted to the marketplace.

    As I said recently, the TV media has just ‘discovered’ sexting between school kids in the UK. I’m sure that it and the associated sex acts have been going on for some years. I think that that is kind of sad, that kids don’t get to be kids. just mini-sexbots without self-value.

  • Athol Kay has built a small financial empire with MMSL due entirely to this not being true.

    The Stats, per ABC News:

    Very Satisfied with Sex Life:

    Married/committed under 30 77%
    Singles under 30 53%

    Frequency of sex:

    Never: 23% Unmarried, 1% Married

    Few times past month: 26% Unmarried, 43% Married

    2-3 times per week: 19% Unmarried, 36% Married

    4 times per week: 7% Unmarried, 7% Married

    http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/959a1AmericanSexSurvey.pdf

    So when a man agrees to, or suggests living together it impresses her with two things – either he is an Alpha who she’s won over so completely that he’s showing signs he’s ready to commit to exclusivity with her, or he’s predominantly a beta with no better propositions than to settle into living with what he believes is his ‘sure thing’ sex.

    Your alphas:

    “Older singles (age 30 and up), for their part, are much less likely to be involved in a sexual relationship (29 percent) and much less satisfied with their sex lives. As noted above, older single men are more likely to have cheated on a spouse or partner; and three in 10 of them have paid for sex. Older single men report a lifetime median of 12 sex partners (and an average of 34), the highest for any group; older single women, by contrast, report a median of four partners (and an average of eight).”

    Alphas of your description are unsuitable for LTRs, cohabitation or marriage.

  • Cohabitation can work if the two individuals are each mature, stable and ready for a healthy relationship leading quickly to marriage and family. They should also be very much in love, not just looking for convenience or sex. Otherwise, the risks are numerous to both sides.

    My husband and I moved in with the acknowledgement “this is a precursor to marriage,” but since we had only known each other for two months, and that was mostly long-distance, getting married right away would have been too big of a leap. We got engaged 4 months after moving in together, and got married 6 months after the engagement. We were not girlfriend/boyfriend for long, because from the beginning we saw each other as much more than that.

    We did have some issues in the beginning when we first moved in together, but we solved them, and after the first two months we haven’t had anything like that since. It’s the time to sort out any issues, incompatibilities and deal-breakers. I would say you can tell pretty quickly, within 6 months, whether it’s going to fall apart or turn into a good marriage. But maybe that’s because we had both taken the red pill.

  • Just1Z

    p.s.
    sorry you guys have had your own Dunblane. sounds similar to an incident here 16 years ago. horrific.

  • Escoffier

    The fact that he was able to quit a job that even he admits was low paying does not even suggest, much less prove, that the majority of married men aren’t getting laid. Like I said, even if the % is 20%–hell, even if it’s 10%, or 5%, or 1%–the hard numbers would still be so high that he could easily make a nice living dispensing such advice.

    The majority of people are not in counselling or therapy, yet the absolute numbers are high enough to support hundreds of thousands of psychologists and psychiatrists–much less one Athol.

    • The use of Athol as proof of the state of marriage in the US is insulting to intelligence and common sense. What we can say is that Athol has a readership that finds his advice useful, and some portion of that readership purchases his book.

      There are 55,200,000 married men in the U.S. Let’s generously assume Athol has sold 500K copies of MMSL Primer. That is .009% of the married male population in the US.

  • My grammar is atrocious and getting worse by the day… ugh. I think I’m still in a daze about the shooting. What sickness prompts someone to open fire on young children?

  • J

    @Hope

    Psychosis, I’m guessing. The voices in his head told him to do it. Bad brain chemistry. There’s nothing here we’ll be able to understand. If they can ever get him on meds that make him lucid enough to understand what he did, he may not even recognize himself in today’s events.

  • IIRC, there are Kinsey numbers that show married people surely do have the most frequent sex, over cohabitors, and both are way ahead of singles. (I think there is *one* age block where the cohabitors have the advantage at the high end.) Yeah, there are large numbers of people who are married and cut off, and Athol surely has a decent market, but the market of people who don’t need his help is much bigger.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Awesome post.

    Girls, do this for a man who loves you, or in moderate amounts for one who is showing interest as a way to ramp up the emotional connection.

    Don’t do it on someone who has no (or not enough) interest in you (possibly because he’s out of your league or doesn’t see you as gf material) and then complain that men don’t appreciate such things.

    • @Han Solo

      Girls, do this for a man who loves you, or in moderate amounts for one who is showing interest as a way to ramp up the emotional connection.

      Don’t do it on someone who has no (or not enough) interest in you

      I didn’t even think of saying this, thank you! Yes, this is very important! The calibration is key – do too much of this relative to the level of male investment and you will be nothing but a pest. He doesn’t want to hole up with you during a snowstorm. On the other hand, if he’s showing steady interest and you dig him, don’t hold back! Do a little more than you feel comfortable with, and see what kind of response you get. If it’s positive, keep going!

  • JP

    Well, this guy apparently planned for a year back in 1927 when he apparently tried to blow up an entire elementary school.

    At least today’s guy didn’t have unlimited access to the school like this school board treasurer did.

    He was probably listening to the voices, too.

    “The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–11 years of age [1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history and the third-deadliest non-military massacre in U.S. history, behind the Oklahoma City bombing, and 9/11.

    The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55 who died in a car bomb he set off after he drove up to the school as the crowd gathered to rescue survivors from the burning school.

    On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. He used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his fragmentation-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school’s south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

  • Rgoltn, shallow would be expecting a man to make a certain amount of money or more or something along those lines. Don’t we all test a partner as we date them to see if we can be happy being married to them? You make it sound like I’m playing a game. I feel I’m just being smart. I know what type of guy I will and will not be happy with, and I’m doing what needs to be done to make sure I end up marrying the right man for me. I think a big reason divorce happens (especially when it happens within the first few years of marriage) is because people are marrying the wrong people for themselves. They aren’t waiting nearly long enough and they aren’t giving themselves the opportunity to meet more people. I see friends of mine getting married to people they barely know, because they think “Oh I’m in my prime now, must get married and have babies now!” That is if they don’t have babies first and feel they “should get married” because if you get knocked up, it’s the best thing to do when most often than not, it’s not the best thing to do because their relationship usually struggles more than what it’s worth or they end up divorced.

    I don’t know why married people look down on single people and act superior. I see so many people my age in marriages I can tell they don’t want to be in afterall. Why would I make those same mistakes?

  • Also I’m happy to say that after 5 years of living together, we still have great sex every day. Sometimes twice.

  • JP

    “Also I’m happy to say that after 5 years of living together, we still have great sex every day. Sometimes twice.”

    That’s just, uh, [insert appropriate word here]. I’m not sure what word adequately describes this news.

    Is it Internet etiquette to offer congratulations?

    I’m also not sure what emotion I’m supposed to be experiencing here.

  • I don’t need a congrats, I’m just saying what these studies and conclusions based on the studies are saying doesn’t necessarily ring true for everyone.

  • Just1Z

    not for me either Ashley

  • Alphas of your description are unsuitable for LTRs, cohabitation or marriage.

    You’re only making my points for me.

    Glad to be of help 🙂

    Cad Awareness is an important part of my curriculum.

  • GudEnuf

    It’s .9%, not .09%.

  • GudEnuf

    Not .009%.

  • Sassy6519

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%

    500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

  • doomwolf

    @Hope

    Today’s events make a good argument for the existence of God, because f God exists, Heaven exists, and is Heaven exists, Hell exists. I think I’ve got a pretty solid guess as to which one of the two the gunman is in now.

  • Passer_By

    Ugghhh. Youse broads are confirming the stereotypes about broads and math. It’s either .009, or it’s .9%, but it’s not .009%

    • Ugghhh. Youse broads are confirming the stereotypes about broads and math. It’s either .009, or it’s .9%, but it’s not .009%

      Whoopsie. My bad for adding in the % sign. It’s .9%. The difference is completely immaterial to the argument, the point stands.

  • INTJ

    Apparently Susan and Sassy can’t compute percentages…

  • Sassy6519
  • Sassy6519

    Wait, scratch that.

    I forgot to move the decimal two places over. Haha. I was wrong.

    *giggles*

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Whoopsie. My bad for adding in the % sign. It’s .9%. The difference is completely immaterial to the argument, the point stands.

    Not really immaterial. 1% is huge. If he managed to sell 500,000 books, we would need to take that pretty damn seriously.

    Of course, he obviously hasn’t sold anywhere near that many books…

    • 1% is huge.

      Not in this case! Rollo’s claim was that Athol’s readership proves that married men are not having sex. What we can say is that at the very most, 1% of married American men have gone online to seek advice about their sex lives and found Athol. I’m sure there are many more who haven’t, but Rollo’s claim is ludicrous.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    I think it’s a real stretch to claim that every married man who went online to seek such advice ended up buying Athol’s book. That would make Athol the greatest Internet marketer of all time.

    • I think it’s a real stretch to claim that every married man who went online to seek such advice ended up buying Athol’s book. That would make Athol the greatest Internet marketer of all time.

      Haha, true. I have no idea about MMSL, but every day 65% of my traffic is first-time visitors. The vast majority of people are hit and run.

  • Passer_By

    Having said that, I have no idea what the underlying argument is about, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering to correct anyone. lol

    • Having said that, I have no idea what the underlying argument is about, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering to correct anyone. lol

      It’s because someone on the internet is wrong. This can not stand!

  • JP

    What’s an Athol?

  • Feelist

    Isn’t Rollo married? He’s probably talking about his marriage when he says that most marriages are sexless. Anyway, I wouldn’t put much stock in what a PPB(Professional Pussy-Beggar, aka PUA) has to say about anything. They’re like the male version of femnisim, except they can beg for sex while making it appear stylish.

  • Feelist

    ” What’s an Athol?

    Some dude on the internet with a blog. He gives advice to married men. Don’t know the URL.

  • Paul Rivers

    It’s nice to hear some advice about…you know…actually making people happy.

    I’d say as a guy, there’s 2 things that freak me out about marriage, after the “I do want to marry this girl” point –

    1. That we’re going to get married and the fun will die off and stop. Whether it’s sex, conversation, or her making an effort, or the start of nagging or manipulation, etc etc etc…if we have something good going right now, will simply getting married change all that?

    2. Wedding hell. It seems like weddings have become more and more a chance for the girl to stress out, have lots of breakdowns over insignificant details, spend a huge amount of money – and just generally put a ton of stress on the relationship that makes you wonder – if I go through 3 months of hell that she causes, are my own feelings for her going to change?

    I don’t have answers for these questions, these are just the things I would be concerned about with a girl that I would want to be dating forever.

  • Mike M.

    @Susan:

    You realize that a woman who does even half what you recommend will have a man wrapped around her little finger, don’t you? 🙂

    WRT Athol Kay, I seem to recollect that he figures his readership is half female. And I suspect a fair number of the men are single – but interested in Courtship/Marriage Game, not PUA Game. The whole Game world is fissioning, and people like Athol are at Ground Zero.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    About Connecticut

    In the ’80s we had a rash of standoffs that ended with the police shooting the guy. They finally started calling it “suicide by police”. We don’t seem to get as many these days. Maybe the police have learned how to avoid doing the dirty work. Maybe it has stopped being a fashionable way to do it. Maybe insurance companies are invoking their suicide clauses.

    I think these mass killings may be something along the same lines. They are cowards who can’t pull the trigger on themselves without the buildup of killing helpless people.

    I recommend expunging mass shooters’ names from all public records and flushing their ashes down the toilet.

  • Underdog

    @Feelist

    Rollo is not a PUA. Stop making yourself look like an idiot.

  • INTJ

    By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males? I did sign up for OKCupid a few weeks ago, but promptly stopped bothering with it after searches done through a dummy account showed that there was a plethora of high quality guys on there that I would be competing against, in contrast to the low percentage of high quality females that I would be competing for.

    However, I did just notice an e-mail telling me my profile made the cut for the higher rated profiles, which means they’ll match me with other high rated profiles.

    Should I start actively messaging women there? Or is that futile and should I simply ignore OKCupid (unless someone happens to message me)?

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    I just did a search of men for women and women for men on OkCupid and there’s a 3:1 male to female ratio. You can do these yourself and count if you want to spend the time. On pof you can search and it gives the total number and I have found about a 2.5 to 1 ratio, depending on the age.

    So, I would recommend trying it a bit but don’t waste too much time on it. The girls get tons of emails and can be really picky.

    Girls should all be doing online dating for this very reason–massive numbers in your favor.

    I have reasonable success with it. I met the girl I’m kind of dating from online so it’s possible. They just need one and you might be it but there will be 2.5 similar guys to you for every girl looking for your type so it’s a bit of getting lucky.

    This girl said I look better in real life than in my pics so I think I need to maybe get better pics or learn better how to approach in bars. Social circle is a great way to meet girls too since it gives them more chance for you to shine.

  • Joe

    @Han Solo

    Girls should all be doing online dating for this very reason–massive numbers in your favor.

    Uh… doesn’t this fail the “What if everybody did it?” test? 😉

    • @Joe

      Uh… doesn’t this fail the “What if everybody did it?” test?

      Nobody goes there anymore; it’s too crowded.

      Yogi Berra

  • HanSolo

    @Joe

    Yes….

    But they should anyway so that we can have 3:1 ratios. lol

  • doomwolf

    @ Paul Rivers #98
    I will cosign that. Also, when you’re in your early 20’s, the concept of “till death do you part” is kind of scary, atleast to me – given modern life expectancy, that’s a a *really* long time, and if you pick wrong, well, there are many possibilities as to what happens & they all suck.

    @ Dinkey Pawson #100
    I second. I would advocate dumping their ashes at sea, or feeding them to pigs, to ensure there is simply no physical location that anyone could turn into a pilgrimage site or anything. Also, pressure should be brought to bear on the media not to publish the names or photographs of the gunmen, so they can’t achieve any notoriety, they just get remembered as “some psycho nutjob.”

  • Bully

    If women outnumber men as a whole to begin with and a much larger men are in prison, and if bars are sausage fests as I’ve heard people claim, and there are 2.5 men for every woman on dating sites.. that begs the question as to where the hell the women are.

  • Bully

    *much larger amount of men

  • HanSolo

    @Bully

    That’s what I’ve asked myself. I did go Salsa dancing last night and there were probably about 30% more women than men out of a group of about 50 total people.

    The other place is college campuses, obviously. Yoga classes. Wine tasting, maybe?

    I’ve asked myself that often and I think a lot of women must not be going out that much. Or maybe they’re in coffee shops and restaurants?

    Great question. Where are the women?

  • HanSolo

    They’re all at chick flicks. 😉

  • HanSolo

    Or drowning their sorrows downing tubs of Häagen Dazs. 😀

  • According to the latest survey, yoga is 80 % female, 20 % male (and half those are Sensitive New Age Guys). It’s not something that you can just jump into though and start raking in the hotties. I should probably write a guide for good behaviour in the yoga studio.

    Many women are subsumed in the rat-race, or sitting at home knitting. I bought a pretty toque today.

  • Bully

    Yoga wouldn’t be a bad idea except I’m weight training 6 days a week as it is and adding yoga on top of that seems like a bad idea. Powerlifting women.. yeah, they don’t exist, Not at the four gyms I’ve been to, anyhow.

    Dance.. hmm, I may try that in the spring. I’m really tall and gangly, though Just about Thurston Moore/Joey Ramone tall, and really uncoordinated when it comes to moving around. Being tall isn’t such a bonus when you look like a goof.

    Even at my corporate rat race the women are all like 35 minimum; wouldn’t be too bad if I was older, but I’m barely turning 30. Maybe it’s because I’m not in sales – that’s where most of the hotties I’ve seen pass by are.

    Sucks that the ratio online is so bad, but it’s still the best out of most my options, it seems, so I might have to focus my attention there.. Oh well – I just bought myself a Christmas present (a 72-key digital piano) and spent about three hours practicing tonight, so I guess dating will have to wait a little longer till the spring while I work through my latest obsession. 😛

  • Höllenhund

    Athol is promoting his stuff specifically to married men. Do I even need to point that out?

  • Höllenhund

    Jezebel is predictably milking the CT shooting for all its worth. Of course, the one thing they, or any other similar media outlet, won’t mention is that the shooter is one of the typical and predictable male products of the matriarchy. Such killers are dime-a-dozen in matriarchies. Just check out the news reports, both archived and recent, from Liberia and the Congo. Guns, video games etc. have nothing to do with it.

  • They’re all at chick flicks.

    Twilight events too. 😉

    About the massacre
    I had refused to read anything about it but general comment. Is just too much, I don’t think I will be able to sleep again or stop crying ever, if I start to see the names and faces of the victims… poor children 🙁

  • @INTJ
    Online sites are like therapists if one doesn’t work you should keep trying IMO. I tried half a dozen before hitting the jackpot so to speak.

  • chris

    “Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one”

    What culture are you living in?

    • “Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one”

      What culture are you living in?

      One very different from the expectations some men here have! If you’re just tuning in, we’ve been debating whether girlfriends should clean their boyfriend’s apartments as a sign of MMV. I say no way, the guys say yes please. I’ve never heard of it IRL, aside from some reports here.

  • VD

    I mean, what do we have to do? Homeschool?

    Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered, not literally, but unfortunately, in some cases it fits both ways.

    What can you do?

    What the Israelis do, arm the teachers. If, instead of wasting money on guidance counselors, psychologists, and a small army of administrators, schools invested in arming each teacher with a S&W revolver, putting them through a training course, and hiring two ex-military to serve as entrance security combined with a sniper team to provide overwatch of the entrance, there would never again be a school shooting with more than 2-3 victims. The schools can afford it, but anti-gun ideology and the preference for the illusion of safety trumps actual security.

    The fortress approach doesn’t work. It’ s hardly news; the Chinese learned that with the failure of the Great Wall.

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%. 500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    • @VD

      Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered, not literally, but unfortunately, in some cases it fits both ways.

      I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

      Also, I’d point out that the blogs appear to be heavily populated by home schooling moms, who are alarmingly available for chit chat during the school day. At least in schools teachers are not free to surf the net and debate gender issues during class.

  • Rich

    This article should be titled “How to set the perfect trap”.

  • Escoffier

    My wife’s first comment was, “The solution is obvious but no one will even mention it: arm the teachers.”

    Our school is very good, no lobotomies being delivered but homeschooling may yet happen for us anyway.

  • Why there is a war going on :

    Basically, men hate women. All men. The boy next door so to speak hates women every bit as much as Ted Bundy. Not all will murder. But not because they think more highly of women, because they fear jail. These different strata of men serve to make women think some men aren’t like that, which is a lie. So we keep hoping and searching to find the right one.

    We keep on providing sex and love and domestic labor and money and every other cookie that womankind has to offer. Guess who that benefits, yep men. If women would understand that a man is a man is a man across the board and all are exactly the same, we would stop trying to get blood (love) out of a turnip and then get on with our lives WITHOUT MEN.

    How can a man, any man, argue against that ? Throwing the MRA manual at her, won’t do. Being a good SO won’t do. It’s impossible to win against this. So what then ?

    MGTOW

  • Joe S.

    This might now sound popular but sometimes I think cleaning is a way for a woman to mark the territory so to speak. Given my workload, and the fact that I’m a fairly active person, cleaning usually gets bumped down the list. I’m by no means a sloppy person but ill sometimes skip the hard to reach places.

    My ex-girlfriend cleaned my apartment a few times (she also clandestinely placed clothes and toiletries in the apartment.) the first time my sister visited from college, and without knowing I was dating someone, instantly detected that a female had cleaned there. Don’t ask me how. It’s also happened other times. For what it’s worth quite a few of my friend girlfriends or ex’s cleaned or picked up some.

  • Iggles

    @ HanSolo:

    This girl said I look better in real life than in my pics so I think I need to maybe get better pics or learn better how to approach in bars. 

    Lol!

    I tell my friends all the time, straight guys on dating sites have the worst pictures! It’s endearing though! Most guys do not take pictures of themselves, so the ones they post are picture their friends or family of taken. Candid shots, etc. The guys who have good pictures are usually questionable – if they’re “too” groomed in their photos they ping my gaydar.

    The bonus is, without fail every guy I’ve gone out with that I met online looked way better in person 😀

    I met my bf online and I told him when we met up I had no idea what he really looked like. He looked different in each photo, lol.

    @ Höllenhund:

    Athol is promoting his stuff specifically to married men. Do I even need to point that out?

    He also has a healthy female readership. There are plenty of women posting who bought the book and are doing FAP (female action plan) to improve their marriages.

    FTR, there are women who are trapped in sexless marriages too! I don’t envy anyone, male or female, who are high desire partners who are marriaged to a spouse with a low sex drive..

  • Sassy6519

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

    @ Iggles

    The bonus is, without fail every guy I’ve gone out with that I met online looked way better in person 😀

    I think that most people look much better in person than they do in pictures. I’m not overly enthused about the way I look in pictures either.

    • @Sassy

      Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

      It was entirely my fault, and it’s not the first time I’ve typoed in that pesky % sign.

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus
    it’s all projection. if you want to see real, crazed hatred of a gender take a look at RadFemHub, or the Agent Orange files (he infiltrated and exposed the misandry of wingnut central). Some of those women are teachers FFS

  • Maggie

    @J
    “Look at this poor dumb bitch who wasted 6 years on a man who couldn’t commit:”

    Do you think this article is for real? She looks like a 60-year old man in drag. Her hands are very large for a woman.

  • Just1Z

    @Maggie
    yeah, I didn’t want to say, but that face!

    it might well be instructive to hear his side (should be be interested in giving it) about why he didn’t or wouldn’t commit. I mean maybe couldn’t is a possibility too. Was she an active part of his divorce?

    but six years is a lot of time to waste, whatever the underlying truth.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    I think that most people look much better in person than they do in pictures. I’m not overly enthused about the way I look in pictures either.

    True. I think it’s rare for a photograph to capture what a person looks like in real life. Professional photographers have the best equipment and are trained at capturing the best look. Amatuers, not so much – and the web is saturated iphone photos.

    Still, women take pains to post their most attractive photos. Guys by and large post whatever photos they have.

    @ Marellus,
    I think RadFems are too far gone to listen to logic. They’re in the same category as MRA exteremists. They’re married to their position and that involves hating the other gender.

    There’s no explaining it. You have to have serious issues and/or be a repressed homosexual to write something like this:

     If women would understand that a man is a man is a man across the board and all are exactly the same, we would stop trying to get blood (love) out of a turnip and then get on with our lives WITHOUT MEN.

    I find that woman’s comment disturbing.

    Rest assured, I don’t think any women on HUS would agree with this. Women and men need each other for humanity to survive. On a personal level, women and men thrive when they have a loving partner in their lives!

  • Ion

    Esco

    “My wife’s first comment was, “The solution is obvious but no one will even mention it: arm the teachers.”

    I think its sad that it never occurred to me to arm teachers, but that is a really good idea.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

    I know you hate anecdotes and all that, but I used attend the Berkeley Math Circle. There was a 13-year-old home schooled kid there who won the spelling bee in 2007. He was also brilliant at mathematics. Us high schoolers struggled to keep up with him.

    Also, I’d point out that the blogs appear to be heavily populated by home schooling moms, who are alarmingly available for chit chat during the school day. At least in schools teachers are not free to surf the net and debate gender issues during class.

    Yes, but those moms are still a very small minority of all home schoolers.

    • @INTJ

      I know little about home schooling. Are there federal or state standards that must be met? Is there monitoring? What is to prevent a woman of fairly low intellect giving her own children a bad or at least incomplete education?

      I know that some home schoolers are part of networks that share curricula, pedagogy, etc. Others seem like rogue outposts.

  • @Just1Z

    I know of Agent Orange. And I know that the rape-argument is the type argument that no man can win against a woman.

    It’s too emotional.

    It’s too confounding.

    Any dispassionate recitation of numbers to poo-poo it, will fail.

    As it must.

    We are headed for more acrimony between the sexes Just1Z.

    We are headed for more isolation between the sexes Just1Z.

    We are headed for an explosion of rapes Just1Z.

    We are going to see militant fringe philosophies on gender, go mainstream Just1Z.

    We are going to see a legislated separation of the sexes Just1Z.

    We are going to see a preponderance of mental disorders because of this Just1Z.

    Adolescent boys will become objects of inordinate fascination Just1Z.

    Suicides of young girls will skyrocket Just1Z.

    And the remedies applied, will only exacerbate this Just1Z.

    So when a man and a woman decides to become a couple, it will be seen for it really is, Just1Z :

    A Miracle.

  • Joe S.

    My company’s lead engineer was home schooled. His parents traveled often for work and it wouldn’t have made sense to put him in a traditional school just to transfer him repeatedly. He swears by it, and has ironclad mathematic skills and is overall a very intelligent, but the lack of social interaction as a child is pretty obvious. That’s where I would be concerned. There’s a lot that children pick up being in a large social setting. You can tell from the get-go that something is off with him.

  • doomwolf

    FWIW, very few of my HS teachers were people I would want to trust with a handgun in a room full of people. If something happened, they would have been hit first, or shot one of us by accident. I say this as someone in the military who has fired pistols before, and they are surprisingly hard to aim, even standing still on a range with no one shooting at you or screaming in terror.

    Armed security makes a certain amount of sense, though if you need armed guards outside each elementary school I fail to see how your country can then turn around and call itself the land of the free and the brave.

    Homeschooling-A friend of mine from uni was home-schooled up until Gr12. Extremely smart academically, but even after living in a house of guys for a couple years & working on Parliament Hill, his social skills aren’t the best (no where near as bad as when I met him though). I feel that home-schooling may give you good academic skills, but you aren’t the most well rounded person due to lack of social skills, understanding how to live with bureaucratic rules (my schools always had enough), lack of shared experiences with your peers, etc.

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus

    I appear to be slightly more optimistic than you, which is nice (and not very hard to achieve).

    I have never seen MRAs hitting the absolute levels of hate as seen in radfemhub. killing all males, castration etc. They appear to be cracked. AVFM is covering the University of Toronto feminist activity at the moment, you can see videos of the actions of what they get up to. The most negative ‘MRA’ site I’ve come across (not that I ever went on a determined hunt) is run by a guy accused by his divorcing wife of DV and paedophilia with his own kids. He was very lucky to be able to prove that it wasn’t true when the police investigated, she had planted photos on his PC, I don’t know how the proved they weren’t his – but he did (no penalty for her was forthcoming). Family court just took his guilt as read (in spite of the police report) and stripped him of everything including his kids. He has very little time for women, but I have never seen any hatred beyond don’t trust ’em, and seeing no value in them beyond P & D sex, at which he is very ‘good’. I don’t blame him as I haven’t been put through what he has, I just don’t share that outlook or set of values.

    I don’t think that there is an MRA mirror of RadFemHub. But having said that, I have absolutely no interest in seeing one. It’s not how I feel and never has been.

    At the end of the day, the vast majority of the MRAs that I have ever come across would drop the flag as soon as the misandric laws and societal ways are dropped. They aren’t interested in revenge, but they aren’t going to be much interested in chivalry ever again.

    Having said all that, I really see the next apocalypse being financial. I’m sure that there will be attitude changes and laws between the sexes, but that is going to be a by-product of the rolling back of the social state rather than direct action. Nanny state will be broke, that will change many things, mostly for the worse for everyone. YMMV

  • It is true that there can be socialization problems with home-schooled kids, but it is also true that there is a lot of not-so-desirable socialization that goes on in schools, especially public schools. Some of it is due to herd behavior among other students, some of it due to the schools themselves (viz “self-esteem” inculcation.)

    I’m sure there are honorable exceptions, but by and large the administratiors of America’s public schools are a bad lot, as are the ed-school professors who have had such a malign influence on the field.

    • as are the ed-school professors who have had such a malign influence on the field.

      Terrible. I’d rather see people not major in education at all – why not teach based on expertise derived from a college major? One of the young women closest to me went to teachers college and majored in Elementary Education. She is now teaching high school chemistry!

  • VD…”What the Israelis do, arm the teachers”

    First problem is that the teachers here are, mostly, sort of different from the ones in Israel, the vast majority of whom have served in the military and who also consciously understand that their society faces mortal threats. Second problems is that it could never be done politically…consider the squeals from the liberal media when, in the wake of 9/11, the commonsensical idea of **arming airline pilots** was first mooted. Indeed, the Armed Flight Deck Officer program *still* faces pretty lame support, and a lot fewer pilots are armed than should be.

    • First problem is that the teachers here are, mostly, sort of different from the ones in Israel, the vast majority of whom have served in the military and who also consciously understand that their society faces mortal threats.

      Looking back on my own education, the idea of old Mrs. Allen willingly and successfully shooting an intruder with a cool head is preposterous. Nor could I imagine my focus group girls now teaching pulling it off.

      Sabras are a tough bunch, we don’t even come close.

  • doomwolf

    Further to that, if you go back through the history of various social movements in the late 19th/first half of the 20th century, there were a lot of teachers (women) heavily involved, and many became very influential in their respective organizations. Then feminism and the 1960’s came about, and since then it almost seems that a lot of teachers go into the field because they can’t do anything better. I have friends that have done teachers college and are passionate about the whole thing, but I know others that wouldn’t have come close to making the grade 60-70 yrs ago when it was one of the few professions open to women.

    This is not to say that the past was better, just a comment on the unexpected consequences of changing the labour market.

  • HanSolo

    @Iggles

    Well, since online dating is here to stay for me I will have to test my pictures on a female focus group. lol

    But, I do need to go beyond that too.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I know little about home schooling. Are there federal or state standards that must be met? Is there monitoring? What is to prevent a woman of fairly low intellect giving her own children a bad or at least incomplete education?

    No federal standards. State standards are fairly mild, and there’s nothing to prevent a woman from doing that. It’s a constitutional rights thing. Pennsylvania had the strictest standards, where my mom would have to fill out a form and give a detailed description of what all curriculum she was teaching. In Oklahoma, people can just pull their kids out of school (or not send them in the first place) without filling in anything. That is scary. In California, we filled out a form to create a “private school”.

    I know that some home schoolers are part of networks that share curricula, pedagogy, etc. Others seem like rogue outposts.

    Yeah it totally depends. In Pennsylvania, my mom started home schooling after my older brother’s elementary school ran out of stuff to teach him, and my mom knew a homeschooling parent. That homeschooling parent had built a nice network there which shared a lot of stuff.

    When we moved to Oklahoma, we only networked with other home schoolers for the purposes of social interaction during school hours. No academic networking, as almost all the home schoolers home schooled for religious rather than academic reasons.

    When we moved to California, at first we enrolled in a Home Study program, which meant we were technically public school students, but just were enrolled in an unconventional school. That ended when I needed to do higher level Calculus and Physics but the local school district didn’t have course numbers for those… That’s when we created the “private school”. Networking wasn’t as big an issue because the Bay Area has lots of academic activities in general (like the aforementioned Berkeley Math Circle), and having sent off my older brother to college, my mom pretty much had the whole thing worked out.

  • @Just1Z

    I’m in a sour mood today. It happens. Nonetheless, your points have merit, and for all I know, the future will look like a Peter F Hamilton novel … barring a reality dysfunction … heh.

  • HanSolo

    @Esc, Ion, VD

    Last night I saw Piers Morgan on CNN go ballistic that it was all gun control’s fault. A total emotional blowup, totally devoid of any appeal to facts, the likes of which I think I’ve never seen in a “mainstream” host. Some of the opposing point of view presented facts about how in countries that banned guns (like the UK) that the murder rate went up and that the Colorado Batman massacre was at the one theater closeby that prohibited firearms. He had made up his mind and all facts be damned. He compared the murder rate in the US vs the UK, as opposed to comparing what happened in the UK after guns were banned.

    I don’t know enough about the risks either way to say whether teachers should be armed but I think it’s work looking into. If the risks of an outside assailant are greater than the risk of a teacher going on a rampage or having her gun stolen by a student who then uses it then it should be implemented.

  • Joe

    @VD (& Susan)

    Homeschool or die, mate. Granted, I intended that as a metaphor for the intellectual lobotomies delivered

    Hum… a commentary!

    But I have to challenge the notion that homeschooling is that bad. Consider that, if asked to imagine the best learning environment possible, most people would come up with something like: “safe and familiar surroundings, with a (very) small student to teacher ratio, with teachers who care about and concerned with the well-being of their students.”

    That’s a home and parents. Homeschooling may not be ideal for some, but by any objective measure, there’s no way public schooling is better. I doubt even private schooling is better.

  • HanSolo

    Also, I think there are some gun control laws that would make sense like a background check at gun shows and so on.

    • Also, I think there are some gun control laws that would make sense like a background check at gun shows and so on.

      He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

  • Just1Z

    @Marellus
    I’m just plodding through ‘The Great North Road’ by him. I think that they’re about to encounter the …..ah, well we’ll see man.

    I read the neutronium alchemist trilogy – 7″ of great story telling, and have been trying to summon up the courage to tackle the void trilogy (on kindle, but still a whopper). I’ve been trying for a couple of years iirc.

    Iain M Banks and Neal Asher have been good. That old ‘who goes here?’ by Bob Shaw was funny though, the tale of ‘Warren Peace’ (not exactly like the tale by Tolstoi) – very different style from modern day stuff, great story telling.

  • Just1Z

    Crap day though, even from 3000+ miles away. With the political BS about to spring into action. young men’s suicide rates have trebled under feminism (since 1965) (female rate is pretty much unchanged). can we not look into where/how these psychos are being produced? something has gone wrong with society.

    UK tv has just shown that the US has 89 guns per 100 population, the UK has 6. but the US gun murder rate is only three times ours, putting them at #28 in the world rankings of killings per head of poulation. this would suggest to me that it isn’t just about the availability of guns. we have just about the toughest laws in the world, there is major police vetting before a licence is allowed, with very strict monitoring. I have no idea how many bad guys have guns though, gang killings are not widelt publicised here as long as they ‘only’ kill each other, the same with knife crime.

    numbers from UN ODC survey of 2007.

  • INTJ

    Also, if you home school, don’t move to Sweden or Norway. They’ll take away your kids. Even if you’re trying to leave the country. http://www.nkmr.org/english/dominic_johansson_case_home-schooled_boy_snatched_from_plane.htm

  • Abbot

    “rates have trebled under feminism ”

    Many “rates” of things have gone haywire over the past four or so decades. Slut rate, divorce rate, marriage rate, male college rate, female happiness rate…and on and on. Feminists ALWAYS rush in to do damage control whenever the mainstream media mentions feminism as possible contributor. These asshats are constantly running back and forth in front of the dike wall plugging leaks.

  • Cooper

    Great post!!!

  • Just1Z

    The last UK rampage that I remember hearing about was gun based at all.

    Cardiff van rampage leaves city in shock
    Police hold man, 31, and appeal for witnesses after woman is killed and 14 others injured
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cardiff-van-rampage-leaves-city-in-shock-8219566.html

    This was soon followed by reports of collisions in several locations, including Grand Avenue, Cowbridge Road West and the Leckwith Retail Park in west Cardiff.

    Witnesses said they saw “at least seven ambulances” and scores of police vehicles in the Ely area at the height of the incidents.

    Sub-postmaster Shady Taha, 29, had served two young girls moments before one of the incidents, on Grand Avenue, Ely. “I suddenly heard a bang. I looked out and, across the road, one girl was on the floor and the other girl was screaming. I heard a van speed off but I did not see it.”

    also
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9622426/Cardiff-hit-and-run-CCTV-shows-van-careering-across-four-lanes-of-traffic.html

    can we talk about crime stats of children raised by ‘heroic single moms’ yet? including the ones that kicked the father out of the house. boys do better with male role models in the home, in school and in society.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Terrible. I’d rather see people not major in education at all – why not teach based on expertise derived from a college major? One of the young women closest to me went to teachers college and majored in Elementary Education. She is now teaching high school chemistry!

    UT’s College of Natural Science has options in each degree designed for teachers. I have a friend who’s majoring in the Teaching option of Physics.

    • UT’s College of Natural Science has options in each degree designed for teachers. I have a friend who’s majoring in the Teaching option of Physics.

      That’s a great idea. States vary a lot in their requirements, which probably drives a lot of this. In Massachusetts, a retiring physicist willing to work for free would not be able to get a job teaching physics, but a 21 year old ed major would.

  • Ion

    Hans

    “Well, since online dating is here to stay for me I will have to test my pictures on a female focus group. lol.”

    I forgot who it was around here who said to keep smiling pictures to a minimum, have one, or maybe a few. If you are using avatar pics on online dating, I personally like your previous avatar a little better than this one.

    Also, I noticed over a week that put up your pic, and wow you’re hot. I’ve complimented a couple of other people here in the past, and I didn’t want to seem like I was giving out false compliments to all. I really really doubt your pics are posing a problem. Maybe reevaluate what’s in your profile?

    • @Han

      I agree with Ion. The pic just before this one was the best so far. I definitely recommend not smiling, and the other thing they say guys should do is not look directly at the camera. For women, it’s the opposite – look at the camera and smile.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    I’m not saying that I agree, but I know what the argument is. The reasoning goes like this:

    Based on this, we have an excuse to ban semi-automatic weapons. If we ban them, then, when someone uses a rifle, a shotgun, a pistol (whatever is not banned), then we have an excuse to ban those. And when those are banned…

    Yesterday, a crazed man in China stabbed 22 children with a knife. The gun ban simply doesn’t solve the problem, unless you define the problem as law-abiding, sane citizens having guns to defend themselves.

    I see flaws in this argument, because I also see the benefit of making killing harder. That increases safety, but not anywhere near completely. It provides an illusion of safety more than the reality.

  • Ion

    Hansolo

    “If the risks of an outside assailant are greater than the risk of a teacher going on a rampage or having her gun stolen by a student who then uses it then it should be implemented.”

    I agree. It would definitely be tricky. I don’t know much about gun laws and crime rates to offer an educated opinion, but Just1z has some interesting perspective about guns in the UK. Banning guns doesn’t mean crazy people/criminals don’t get guns, just that the rest of us are unarmed. Look at inner city neighborhoods, VERY few registered guns, very few normal people with guns, and crime rate is high. Isn’t it easy for a 17 year old kid in a gang to get an illegal automatic weapon, whether guns are banned or not?

    Another possible solution is that suburban schools do exactly what some low income high schools do, and put metal detectors at all entrances (hopefully with armed guards).

  • Ion

    Abbot

    “Many “rates” of things have gone haywire over the past four or so decades.”

    I looked at this chart, is feminism prominent in the top 20 countries, for example? I don’t really see a connection between feminism and gun violence.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

  • I think its sad that it never occurred to me to arm teachers, but that is a really good idea.

    Anyone remember “Going postal”? This only means that any teacher mad at the union/spouse/students/football team, will have the training to make the most damage in the shortest time before offing him/herself.
    I think a combo of screening before selling guns, better help for people with mental issues, awareness from family and friends about what signs to look for if they have a loved one planning to do something extreme and now were to get help (like the mom of the guy that was planning the shootings during Breaking Dawn), and some training on how to act when this things break hell for the common citizen, will work better,YMMV.

  • I’m still way more worried about our baby being hurt in a car accident or activity accident, which are extremely common, than in a school shooting, which is very rare. Every summer there are tragic stories of neglectful parents leaving their kids in the car, or kids climbing out of high windows, or falling into water and drowning.

    Homeschooling has its merits, but we are not interested in it. Better to get a smart kid into an environment surrounded by even smarter kids to challenge and compete with others, as well as get good socialization.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Thanks for the compliment and also your opinion on my 2 photos. I changed my pof picture to the one you liked better. We’ll see.

    As to the guns, I think making it harder to have assault rifles and requiring background checks would be good but I also think that having some armed responsible people in schools and malls and so on may make sense.

  • Abbot

    “a connection between feminism and gun violence”

    How many of these gone-postals and even serial killers come from relatively low-friction two-parent nurturing homes? Plenty of guns around prior to 1970…

  • doomwolf

    Here’s an article with some interesting stats re: firearms.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

    I find points 8 & 9 to be fairly obvious, but then again, I don’t belong to the NRA.

  • Sai

    @Just1Z
    “I think that that is kind of sad, that kids don’t get to be kids. just mini-sexbots without self-value.”
    +1

    Re: Connecticut WTF
    All my words are heartless, vengeful and/or bad-sounding and if I articulated any of my thoughts you might get upset and want me off the site.

  • @SW
    Very nice article all around. You do remember that the late (but not lamented) Doug1 cited that same National Marriage Project survey from ’02 in support of his unorthodox lifestyle? :mrgreen:

    This was interesting:

    6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.

    Typically, this is a source of criticism of single women around here (i.e. unrealistic expectations). Also, getting involved with guys whom they may not intend to marry are considered strikes against them (i.e. not wife-material). Perhaps the same could be said for men with similar attitudes and track records?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Spree shooters tend not to have criminal pasts so any stricter gun laws may not prevent anything. What we should be worrying about is why these people snap and kill everyone. Look at China, they had 20 stabbed with a knife so banning guns isn’t the answer at all..

  • Abbot

    “Perhaps the same could be said for men with similar attitudes and track records?”

    Women are free to say that (and act on it) and anything else they want to say. And no one would care.

  • @SW

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    Probably not, for the most part. I think a good argument could be made WRT licensing/registering those kinds of firearms at the federal level. However, should the gov’t attempt to confiscate millions of such firearms retroactively, most of which were legally manufactured and legally purchased by law-abiding citizens, it’s not unreasonable to expect a strong voter reaction.

    A better question to ask might be: Why would a divorced mother own 3 such firearms while she had an apparently disturbed 20-year-old living under the same roof? Nobody can ask her that question, unfortunately.

    It’s too early to know all the details, but the Gun Control Act of 1968 already prohibits certain people (i.e. drug addicts, mentally ill) from purchasing firearms. That’s what background checks are for. Is it too much to suggest that perhaps people on antidepressants and other psychopharmaceuticals be added to that list?

  • also intj

    HanSolo, I admit I preferred the smiling photo.

    Society’s Disposable Son, I also admit your avatar and handle trouble me. I had a friend who hung himself years ago and think of him each time I see your posts. If you are at all suicidal, please reach out for help.

    Megaman, as one of the few Red State folks here, I think that a law denying gun sales to people taking antidepressants would never pass and in the unlikely event it were to, would result in those in need of antidepressants not getting them.

  • also intj

    HanSolo, I agree about closing the gun show loophole. That is a huge one.

  • Lokland

    As a non-American.

    Is it too much to ask that guns simply not be available to the public, period?

    Obviously hunting rifles/shotguns are acceptable (as they are here) but they are heavily regulated.

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    As an entirely outside observer, its possible to live in a country without weapons and not be constantly afraid.

    I think if this was attempted, the retro-active removal would be problematic.

    Note: Certain laws here enable civilians to get guns but pistols (concealable) are generally not available. Semi-auto’s are the same.

    PS.
    This should never have happened.

  • Lokland

    On homeschooling.

    As a general rule,

    its not equal in quality to an average education.

    Private school, if affordable, is most definitely the way to go.
    Possible to avoid the PC public school whilst getting quality education.
    (Although there are a few private schools that really suck.)

  • HanSolo

    @Susan and Also INTJ

    Thanks for the feedback on the photos.

  • Mike C

    Susan is right. It is 0.009%. 500,000 /55,200,000 = 0. 00905%

    Oh, sweet Barbie! Math is hard.

    I think we need a study to determine which group can better calculate percentages, homeschooled or conventionally schooled. 🙂

    Go smart girls! (Jusy playin…)

  • Mike C

    By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males?

    INTJ,

    Just my opinion, but unless you are good-looking and/or look really good “on paper” (height, education, career, etc.) I think online isn’t the way to go. I think most guys are still going to have much better success with either social circle connections or cold approaches than online.

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “By the way people, totally off topic, but what’s the verdict on online dating sites for males?”

    Your 5′ 5”.

    You’ll be excluded by 95% of women based on that criteria alone when they search.

    You will be able to see all you want.

    They won’t even know your there.

  • Escoffier

    The more elite a private school is, the more PC it is.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    He used semi-automatic weapons, right? Any reason we need to have those at all?

    What difference does it make? Semi-automatic weapons aren’t really that much more destructive than manual action weapons…

  • INTJ

    Wow doomwolf and Lokland, glad I’m not the only gun-control supporter on HUS. 🙂

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Lockland

    I understand there was talk in Britain of banning knives over a certain length. Somebody pointed out that the proposed length was shorter than many cooking knives.

    Once you start down that road there is no end to it.

  • Anacaona

    Once you start down that road there is no end to it
    Doesn’t England has a “stabbing” problem? The problem is not in the weapon but the person that uses it. I’m sure you can ban all of them and people will start to slap themselves to death, and what they would do? Mandatory padded gloves?

  • Lokland

    @Dinkey

    Uhmm.

    I live in Canada.
    People don’t have guns.
    No one has ever suggested banning cooking knives.

    Its kinda like me saying that because Americans can have guns people will eventually start walking around in combats armed with assault rifles.

    S
    T
    R
    A
    W
    M
    A
    N

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Anacaona

    Exactly.

    “God made men. Sam Colt made ’em equal, more or less.”

    I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    Not surprising we both live above the border.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Lockland

    There really was a proposal about knives in Britain. The YOBs have really gotten out of hand.

  • Lokland

    @Dinkey

    Yes.

    People have also proposed other things that are ridiculous
    rad fems- kill all male babies
    dictator- kill all the X people

    When crazy happens people stop it or ignore it, depending on how it affects them.

    As an outside observer on the situation I am suggesting that America’s pro-gun stance is similar to the manosphere-all wimminz are evil stance or rad fem- all men are evil stance.

    The logic sounds really good until you stop drinking the koolaid.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Then don’t drink the koolaid.

    The problem isn’t the weapons, it’s the people.

    People focus on the gun instead of the shooter because it’s easier. You can take a dangerous object away from a small child. It’s easy to imagine doing the same with adults.

    In practice it not so simple. Adults are routinely trusted with all sorts of dangerous devices, like aircraft, cars, knives, knitting needles, large rocks… There’s no end to the list.

    We have 300 million odd, some very odd, people in this country. Only a very few of them do these things. That’s one reason why they make the news.

    This country was founded on the idea that we can trust most of our fellow citizens. When it turns out that we can’t, we deal with it. If we are going continue to treat our fellow citizens as free adults, we need another approach besides banning weapons.

  • I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?
    Not the point, specially now.

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Its kinda like me saying that because Americans can have guns people will eventually start walking around in combats armed with assault rifles.

    Not too far-fetched a strawman. I’ve heard libertarians suggest people should be allowed to own RPGs…

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Not surprising we both live above the border.

    No that’s Cooper. But I’m from the Bay Area, which is close enough, politically. 😀 San Francisco actually tried to ban concealable firearms, but the law got thrown out by the courts because regulation of weapons falls under state jurisdiction, not local jurisdiction.

  • VD

    I fear that the vast majority of home schooled children are getting a very poor education. All spelling bee, no math, that kind of thing.

    (shakes head) Susan, you’re so good at going to the studies when it’s an area with which you’re familiar, and yet you don’t do so when it’s an area with which you’re not. In a very large study utilizing the IOWA results some years ago, homeschoolers were THREE years ahead of their public schooled peers and two years ahead of their private school peers. It was in the Washington Post, if you want to dig for it. They are also massively overrepresented as National Merit scholars and semifinalists, and are heavily sought by the elite schools. I think if you look into the matter, you’ll find you have it precisely backward.

    My eldest read Cicero’s Republic at 11 and started trig at 12. The homeschooling curricula Stickwick and I are putting together will provide 200-level college material for 13-15 year olds in economics, physics, and astronomy. Getting poor educations? They are the new educational elite!

    • @VD

      (shakes head) Susan, you’re so good at going to the studies when it’s an area with which you’re familiar, and yet you don’t do so when it’s an area with which you’re not.

      That reflects the differential in my interest level re various topics. I often spend hours researching topics, reading the studies, etc., because I want to understand the business of mating better. I have no particular interest in education, and I did say up front that I don’t know much about home schooling. However, I’ve done a bit of work in order to respond to your comment intelligently.

      According to the Rudner study, 1998, the test results for home-schooled students are indeed well above the mean for public school students:

      This report presents the results of the largest survey and testing program for students in home schools to date. In Spring 1998, 20,760 K-12 home school students in 11,930 families were administered either the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS) or the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP), depending on their current grade. The parents responded to a questionnaire requesting background and demographic information. Major findings include: the achievement test scores of this group of home school students are exceptionally high–the median scores were typically in the 70th to 80th percentile; 25% of home school students are enrolled one or more grades above their age-level public and private school peers; this group of home school parents has more formal education than parents in the general population; the median income for home school families is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States; and almost all home school students are in married couple families. Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. The report clearly suggests, however, that home school students do quite well in that educational environment.

      However, I noted in the study that includes the stats cited in your comment, only 1% of the college freshmen studied were home-schooled, compared with 4% of the children in the U.S. Why such a differential? (http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homeschool.pdf).

      Reich at Stanford has written about the Rudner Study in arguing for the need to regulate home schools:

      Because home schooling regulations are either so minimal or so little enforced, many parents do not notify local educational officials when they decide to home school. Recall that ten states do not even require parents to register their home schools. A great deal of home schooling occurs “under the radar”, so to speak, so that even if local officials wished to test or monitor the progress of home schooled students, they wouldn’t even know how to locate them. Researchers and public officials have, quite literally, no sense of the total population of home schooled students. This is the primary obstacle to studying home schooling.

      A further concern is that an appalling amount of the research conducted on home schooling and given publicity in the media is undertaken by or sponsored by organizations whose explicit mission is to further the cause of home schooling. Even this very volume contains several chapters by advocates – Brian Ray and Scott Somerville. Of course, that research is conducted by persons whose pay comes from organizations dedicated to promoting home schooling is no reason to reject the findings out of hand. I would suggest, however, that we treat the findings of their research on home schooling in the same way the people treat the research on nicotine addiction funded by tobacco companies: with a very large dose of skepticism.

      Consider one of the most widely publicized studies in the home school research literature, the 1999 report by Lawrence Rudner entitled “Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home Schooled Students in 1998.” Rudner’s study was funded and sponsored by the Home School Legal Defense Assocation. It analyzed the test results of more than 20,000 home schooled students using the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, and it was interpreted by many to find that the average home schooled student outperformed his or her public school peer. But Rudner’s study reaches no such conclusion, and Rudnerhimself issued multiple cautionary notes in the report, including the following: “Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.”

      Rudner used a select and unrepresentative sample, culling all of his participants from families who had purchased curricular and assessment materials from Bob Jones University. Because Bob Jones University is an evangelical Christian university (a university which gained a national reputation in the 1980s for its policy of forbidding interracial dating), the sample of participating families in Rudner’s study is highly skewed toward Christian home schoolers.

      Extrapolations from this data to the entire population of home schoolers are consequently highly unreliable. Moreover, all the participants in Rudner’s study had volunteered their participation. According to Rudner, more than 39,000 contracted to take the Iowa Basic Skills Test through Bob Jones, but only 20,760 agreed to participate in his study. This further biases Rudner’s sample, for parents who doubt the capacity of their child to do well on the test are precisely the parents we might expect not to volunteer their participation. A careful social scientific comparison of test score data would also try to take account of the problem that public school students take the Iowa Basic Skills Test in a controlled environment; many in Rudner’s study tested their own children.

      Personally, I have no dog in the fight, and believe that home schooling could be excellent – I have no doubt that I would have provided a top notch experience for my own kids, though they got that elsewhere in our case. I question more the lack of standards and regulation, and the freedom parents have in stopping the education without justification if they so choose.

      You may recall the story here of Nathan Harden – his homeschooling fizzled when he was around 17, IIRC. He went on to get his GED, do a bunch of odd jobs for several years, and then went to Yale on his third try. Clearly a smart guy who was not subjected to much structure along the way.

      It would be interesting to see a study that followed the stories of those high scoring home-schooled teenagers to see what they wound up doing with their lives, and one that looked at what percentage of home schooled kids do receive a college education, and where.

  • VD

    Yeah, that was an epic fail on my part. I looked at the numbers a few times over and realized my mistake.

    It’s not the mistake. Everyone I know, including me, has forgotten to multiply by 100 when adding the percentage sign. It’s just that if you’re going to correct someone, you had damn well better get it right. But then, getting “corrected” by commenters who clearly have no idea what I’m talking about is one of my pet peeves.

    I recently had an economist claim I was wrong about something, so I cited some hard numbers from the recent Federal Reserve report, (which I’d merely mentioned originally), to support my assertion. He then claimed my numbers were wrong and linked to a graph as evidence… a graph of the numbers in the very Fed report to which I’d referred in the first place. Sometimes, it becomes very, very clear that what purports to be dialectic is merely rhetoric; some people are simply shameless bullshitters.

  • VD

    I’ve heard libertarians suggest people should be allowed to own RPGs…

    They should. And forget “allowed”, they have an absolute and unalienable right to do so. Consider this: if guns, and not people, kill people, why doesn’t anyone who supports gun control demand the disarmament of the government and police people? Especially when history clearly shows that government and police people have killed more people than all the wars, civil wars, and private crime COMBINED.

    Disarm the government and police people first, and then we can talk about private people giving up their weapons.

  • Lamia

    This post is beautiful. I would seriously adore doing those things for the man I love – now, just have to find him!

    On a semi-related note, this was a comment posted in a reddit forum that I wanted to share because it just floored me with how beautiful and romantic it is. I would love to get the HUS guys take on it – is this the way most men think?

    “Men want to “provide” for women. It’s just in our nature. Our goal is to provide a emotional/physical/financial force field around you so that you can live the best life you want to live and know that if something bad happens it will be OK because we got your back. Don’t get me wrong, we want you to be independent without us, too, it’s just that we want that sense of independence and individualism to thrive because we’ve provided an additional foundation of support for you to grow on. Remind us of how we enable that for you. It’s affirmation for us. “I feel so supported by you – I can do anything on my own, but knowing I have you in my life and that you have my back makes gives me that extra confidence.”

    Thoughts?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ also intj

    Not suicidal just in a dark place…

    @ Lamia

    My thoughts exactly

  • VD

    And, so as not to remain entirely off-topic, let me add that this a very apt post. It is always important to remind women that a relationship is a two-way street and that they are not the only option available. Men understand that they have to attract women and keep attracting them to maintain a healthy relationship. Fewer women do, because no one is teaching them this.

    A wife who is not also a lover risks finding herself replaced in the latter category, and possibly the former as well. I rather liked “Find a first edition of his favorite adult book”. A leather-bound special edition of Foucault’s Pendulum, signed by Eco, has particular pride of place in my library. It was a gift from my wife.

  • VD

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    No, it was written by men who fought a bloody war that was started by their government trying to seize their firearms. “The British are coming” is short for “The British are coming in force to seize the firearms and ammunition at Concord”.

    There will never be a time when it is not necessary for Man to defend himself against his governments.

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “No that’s Cooper.”

    I meant doomwolf.

    @VD

    “Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down etc.

    No, it was written by men who fought a bloody war that was started by their government trying to seize their firearms.”

    These two statements are not incompatible.

    “There will never be a time when it is not necessary for Man to defend himself against his governments.”

    As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.

    None that I am aware of have needed to defend themselves.

    An interesting thought experiment would be to gather a group of say 100 Americans and ask how many have been required to defend themselves
    2. from the government
    3. from other citizens
    4. #2- with the use of a gun
    5. #3-with the use of a gun.

    Then tabulate all the years they have been alive (after 18) and come up with an analysis of how many times the typical American could be expected to defend themselves with or without a gun.

    I suspect that number would be quite low outside of Detroit.

    Note: Americans seem to view tax increases as an attack. Let’s define attack as one in which the person receives bodily harm beyond the level of a paper cut.

  • Ion

    “How many of these gone-postals and even serial killers come from relatively low-friction two-parent nurturing homes? Plenty of guns around prior to 1970…”

    Also happening after 1970:

    Crack-Cocaine

    Violence in media

    Violence in music

    More kids on ritalin and other drugs

    More kids and adults on recreational drugs

    Complete chaos re social order

    If you’re only referring to serial killers and mass shootings, I’m not sure. I doubt teens will shoot up their schools because of feminism, but I’m open to your ideas on this.

  • Ion

    “Anyone remember “Going postal”? This only means that any teacher mad at the union/spouse/students/football team, will have the training to make the most damage in the shortest time before offing him/herself.”

    That’s a good point Ana. Probably the best thing is to have metal detectors and armed guards in schools.

    Regarding psychiatric drugs, a good documentary I saw was The War on Kids, it’s insane the amount of kids around 7, particularly boys, who are on medication like ritalin. Here it is in full. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-tAQ56-gaA . The documentary claims that the kids in Columbine were probably on Ritalin-like drugs, and I’m sure that’s true for Lanza since he had Aspergers according to the article I read. Another good documentary is The Medicated Child. I think I’ll watch them again since I forgot a lot of the information.

    The doc also talks about how these drugs rewire the brain chemistry of kids growing into adults. How do you handle withdrawal/effectiveness issues of chemicals that have been running through your body since you were practically a toddler?

  • VD

    As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.

    That’s true. Of course, there are no shortage of historical Germans who could have said the same thing before 1941. And Spaniards before 1936. Let’s see how your government responds when Quebec finally votes for independence and secession before you conclude that it is completely safe, cuddly, and respectful of self-determination.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination. So, I suggest that even if the Canadian government is harmless, one would have to be criminally stupid to claim that the U.S. government is equally innocuous. This is particularly relevant given that there are at least two major secessionist trends presently at work in the USA.

  • JP

    “The documentary claims that the kids in Columbine were probably on Ritalin-like drugs, and I’m sure that’s true for Lanza since he had Aspergers according to the article I read.”

    The Columbine killer was sociopathic.

    The only thing that Ritalin would have done was to allow him to focus more on his objectives.

  • JP

    Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    A fighter jet in every garage.

    You never know when you might need to nuke a neighboring county.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    It’s not the mistake. Everyone I know, including me, has forgotten to multiply by 100 when adding the percentage sign. It’s just that if you’re going to correct someone, you had damn well better get it right. But then, getting “corrected” by commenters who clearly have no idea what I’m talking about is one of my pet peeves.

    I recently had an economist claim I was wrong about something, so I cited some hard numbers from the recent Federal Reserve report, (which I’d merely mentioned originally), to support my assertion. He then claimed my numbers were wrong and linked to a graph as evidence… a graph of the numbers in the very Fed report to which I’d referred in the first place. Sometimes, it becomes very, very clear that what purports to be dialectic is merely rhetoric; some people are simply shameless bullshitters.

    I already admitted that I made a mistake. I’m not going to sit here and flagellate myself over it.

    If you are implying that I am one of those supposed “shameless bullshitters”, I see no point in trying to persuade you otherwise. You’ve already formed your opinion.

    I get the feeling that some people want me to cast myself on an altar of mercy or something over this. Good grief.

  • Tax collection is, of course, ultimately backed by the coercive power of the state. Being armed and competent in self-preservation skills may become particularly important as the massive public pension funding shortfall—conservative estimates place it at over $4 trillion—could cause fiscal basket case states like California and Illinois to divert most of revenues to defined-benefit pensions for retirees (leaving active-duty emergency services facing tremendous budget shortfalls).

    More in keeping with VD’s comments, the Public Choice school of political economy can provide tremendous insight into the protection/shakedown racket mentality of the politico, the tendency for regulatory agencies to become “captured” by special interest groups, etc. We should also note who these violent rampage-type predators tend to attack: unarmed, helpless
    subpopulations.

  • Escoffier

    “Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination.”

    Oh, dear lord.

  • JP

    ““Meanwhile, the U.S. government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own people in 1861-1865 in order to prevent them from exercising their right to self-determination.”

    Oh, dear lord.”

    Somebody was going to use the south as a source of wealth.

    It was either the North or Europe.

  • Self-determination would be marvelous! Let them secede or whatever.

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/09/18/obama-supporters-subsidize-romney-supporters-with-their-taxes-

    Let’s put the question of a tax rates to a national referendum and see what Americans really want. Allow voters in each county to decide whether to keep their state and federal taxes at their current level or to lower them. The catch is this: If you vote to lower your taxes then your county or state can’t take out any more money than it puts in. Perhaps this would make everyone happy. Red counties would get the lower taxes and vastly reduced services they want. And people in Blue counties (once they stop trying to give their money to people who don’t want to receive it) would keep more of their hard-earned cash, and enjoy vastly better-funded local services. Let’s give it a try.

  • Lokland…”As a white male living in Canada the worst thing the government has ever done to my family since well before out government was established was demand taxes.”

    Really? I’m pretty sure that Canada had a draft (conscription) in both WWI and WWII (googles…yes, it did, though pretty late in the war in both cases)…this may have been the right thing to do (clearly was in WWII, probably so in WWI) but is an exercise of government coercive power considerably beyond taxation.

    And taxation itself is not a “paper cut”, it IS an exercise of coercive power through seizure of property…again, necessary to some level, but potentially destructive and always inherently coercive.

  • Joe S.

    In line with what Hope posted, one of the first states in the media to petition for “self-determination” was Louisiana which absorbs 2 dollars of federal aid per dollar given. Clearly we’re holding them back.

  • VD

    If you are implying that I am one of those supposed “shameless bullshitters”, I see no point in trying to persuade you otherwise. You’ve already formed your opinion.

    No, not at all. I was merely off on a tangent about how the shameless bullshitters make it necessary to be careful when correcting someone else. Your mistake was clearly innocent. The problem is that there are a surprising number of people that shamelessly make “mistakes” in order to assume a superior posture. Not sure why this is, perhaps because they can get away with it in real life, they don’t realize that they can’t finesse it when it’s down in writing and easily referenced.

    Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    I’m all for it. But don’t be certain that is the reductio ad absurdum it is intended to be. As genetic science advances, it will soon be possible for individuals to hold biological vetoes over governments that are far more lethal than a mere nuclear bomb. That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.

    Some actual numbers for the USA versus Canada

    That 88.8 guns per 100 residents was pre-Obama. With the way guns have been selling since 2008, it may be at 100 by the time he leaves office.

  • Iggles

    Responding to the post:

    Your assuming the role of wife, especially a subservient one, leaves a man without a reason to offer you commitment, much less marry. He may enjoy your relationship, and all the perks you provide, only to decide after several years that he just does not feel inspired to marry you. It’s so common it’s a pitiful cliche.

    Indeed, Susan!

    I’ve heard horror stories where woman have been with their live-in boyfriend for 5+ years without a ring, they give an ultimatum and he chooses to end the relationship all while professing how much he still loves/cares about her! The woman is now at least 5 years older (usually in her mid to late 30s by then) and starting over so-to-speak with a decreased SMV and smaller fertility window.

    I find those stories pretty scary. It’s easy to say, “well, she should have known better..” or “why didn’t she discuss marriage sooner?” but I don’t think anyone goes into those situations aware of how it will end! On both sides, there’s a failure of communication. Often the men are indecisive, and the woman holds on hoping he will come around.

    The women need to talk his actions – not his words – at face value. If he’s reluctant to change the status quo then that’s how he prefers it. If he’s not moving towards marriage then it means he doesn’t want to marry her. It’s not that he’s anti-marriage, because so many times after these long cohabitation relationships end the man meets another woman soon after who he does marry!

  • Iggles

    Typos, argh.. meant to say:
    The women need to take his actions *

  • Sai

    @JP
    “Why stop at the level of ownership of RPGs and why not go straight to stealth bombers with nuclear payloads?

    A fighter jet in every garage.”
    I used to fantasize about something similar, only everybody didn’t have one, just me -sort of a Thunderbirds thing.

  • @Loks

    Your 2nd amendment was written in a time period when it was necessary to be able to defend oneself, hunt for food, put an animal down, etc.

    Bit of American history: The very first reported “school schooting” apparently dates back to 1764:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac%27s_Rebellion_school_massacre

    There were are at least 10 incidents during the 19th Century. I had no idea about the history of this awful phenomenon, it always seemed like a late-20th Century problem. Deadliest offender: Andrew Kehoe in 1927. Killed 44 people (mostly children) in Michigan. He used bombs…

    You’re right, though, this never should have happened in an ideal society. I was really disturbed after Breivik’s massacre in Norway last year. He’s now considered the West’s deadliest rampage killer. I’d always assumed “it can’t happen there”, since Scandinavia has very strict gun control.

  • also intj

    Society’s Indisposable Son, I hope things get better for you.

  • INTJ

    @ VD

    I’m all for it. But don’t be certain that is the reductio ad absurdum it is intended to be. As genetic science advances, it will soon be possible for individuals to hold biological vetoes over governments that are far more lethal than a mere nuclear bomb. That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.

    No, that’s not good news. That’s still scary.

  • Let’s take a closer look at these numbers, all circa 2006ish. In particular, we’ll look at the section of the StatsCan report that includes Chart 4:

    1.) The number of guns per capita in the USA is 288 % that of Canada. The rate of homicide by gun in the USA is 586 % that of Canada. That implies each gun in the USA is 200 % as likely to be used to commit a murder.

    2.) There is no eye-popping difference in the rate of non-gun (i.e. knife) violence in the Anglo-sphere countries (homicides per 100,000 people per year):

    USA: 1.61
    Canada: 1.27
    Australia: 1.11
    England/Wales: 1.15

    England doesn’t have a ‘knife problem.’ The USA has a violence problem, period.

    3.) The majority of homicides in Canada and Australia are committed with illegal firearms. The majority of homicides in the USA are committed with legal firearms. The rates of gun homicides is much lower in Canada and Australia are much lower than those of the USA both on absolute and gun ratio bases.

    4.) The distributions of pistol murders is telling. 75 % of all murders in the USA are conducted with a handgun. The numbers are all near 50 % in Canada, Australia, and England/Wales. This implies that the higher rate of per gun murders found in 1.) is correlated to the higher distribution of pistols in the USA. The prevalence of semi-automatic pistols like the Browning Hi-Power and its evolutionary successors in the USA is really telling, as these type of easily concealable weapons are really more ideal for criminals than citizens.

    This also relates back to point 3.), that pistol murders are predominately with illegal weapons, long-arm murders are predominately with legal weapons. The murder rates are much lower in countries where pistols are more tightly regulated.

    5.) Suicide rates (of males) in the USA are only marginally higher in the USA compared to other Anglo-sphere countries:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    USA: 19.2
    Canada: 17.3
    Australia: 14.9
    United Kingdom: 10.9

    This tends to discount a higher ‘misery index’ in the USA as being responsible for the higher homicide rate. Suicides outnumber homicides by an enormous margin (~ 1000 %).

    Suicide by gun and suicide by hanging are both roughly equally lethal. Murder by gun and murder by garrote are not.

    The conclusion I draw from these statistics is that the USA is much more culturally violent than the other English speaking nations, but that the violence problem in the USA is exacerbated by the widespread distribution of firearms. Greater restrictions on sale, and regulation on storage, of firearms — in particular (semi-automatic) pistols — would probably substantially reduce gun homicides over the course of ~25 years. I wouldn’t expect gun violence in the USA to decline to the levels enjoyed by other English-speaking countries, however. The US constitution explicitly grants the government the right to regulate firearms.

    Honestly, those of you who feel threatened by the government would be
    well advised to join the government and affect change from the inside. The government, after all, is composed of citizens, and either you trust your fellow citizens or you don’t. Standing on the outside demanding your way, but not being willing to work towards your way, is an infantile strategy that is doomed to failure.

  • VD wrote:

    That’s true. Of course, there are no shortage of historical Germans who could have said the same thing before 1941.

    I think perhaps you should review a history textbook to better understand when World War II started. Hint, it wasn’t when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. If you want a good review of the build-up towards the war, I quite like Niall Ferguson’s “The War of the World” and recommend it. In particular, it covers the escalations of atrocities that Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and others committed.

    I am needling you because of your silly emphasis of the per centage discussion. There is a difference between intelligence and cleverness.

  • VD

    I think perhaps you should review a history textbook to better understand when World War II started. Hint, it wasn’t when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

    I think you should understand with whom you are dealing. I know far more about World War II than you likely imagine. My reference to 1941 doesn’t refer to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, nor does the reference to historical Germans refer to the beginning of World War II. It refers to the beginning of the Endlösung, which some date to January 1942, but was clearly decided at higher levels in 1941.

    However, I noted in the study that includes the stats cited in your comment, only 1% of the college freshmen studied were home-schooled, compared with 4% of the children in the U.S. Why such a differential?

    First, because 12 years ago, the number of children being homeschooled in the USA was below 2 percent. The number for 2007 was 2.9 percent. The age distribution isn’t even. Second, if a child is homeschooled through sophmore year and then graduates from a high school, my understanding is that he’s not counted as a homeschooler for college purposes. And third, because parents who homeschool tend to be considerably less ignorant about their children’s educational capabilities and interests than parents who blithely assume that all of their children must go to college. More than two-thirds of the students presently matriculating do not belong there, as evidenced by the fact that only 60 percent of those who enter college manage to graduate within 6 years. Nor can they afford it.

    • @VD

      And third, because parents who homeschool tend to be considerably less ignorant about their children’s educational capabilities and interests than parents who blithely assume that all of their children must go to college. More than two-thirds of the students presently matriculating do not belong there, as evidenced by the fact that only 60 percent of those who enter college manage to graduate within 6 years.

      Are you saying that a large percentage of home-schooled children are not college-bound, and that is for good reason because they lack the capability to thrive there? In that case, what does home schooling prepare them for?

  • JP

    This murder rampage has made me take a trip down memory lane to the guy who used to bully me in middle school.

    He had a brief criminal career and ended up using a knife to kill his mother and attempt to kill his brother, sister, father, and sister’s boyfriend.

    At some point, he did find a gun and used it to kill himself before he was caught.

  • Re : Guns.

    Ultimately it devolves down to trust.

    The trust that your neighbor is not violent.
    The trust that your physical body is safe.
    The trust that your family is safe.
    The trust that your cries for help will be answered.
    The trust that those people around you, are essentially good.

    We’re not good. We never were. We never will be. All we can do, is strive for it.

    And now there is yet another gunner’s rampage.

    And the counterargument now, as always, is this :

    Surrender thy guns, for ye shall be protected. Thou art barbarians for not undertaking this. And the barbarians would do the same, but for an example. And that example must be thine.

    There is no metric that will give credence to trust. Establish trust first, and the guns will disappear.

    That will not happen.

    Wherever there is redistribution of wealth, there is the retribution of the reprobates, the realism of the reactionaries, the remonstrations of the reasonable, and the reassurances of the reprehensible.

  • VD

    The conclusion I draw from these statistics is that the USA is much more culturally violent than the other English speaking nations, but that the violence problem in the USA is exacerbated by the widespread distribution of firearms.

    No. You’re missing the obvious. It’s not cultural violence. It’s racial. The USA has far more Africans and Hispanics than the other English-speaking nations and Africans alone commit 49.7 percent of the homicide in the USA. Look at the rate for the white population – which in FBI terms includes Hispanics – and that drops the rate of homicide by gun in the USA to 281%, right in line with the 288% gun per capita rate.

  • JP

    “Honestly, those of you who feel threatened by the government would be
    well advised to join the government and affect change from the inside. The government, after all, is composed of citizens, and either you trust your fellow citizens or you don’t. Standing on the outside demanding your way, but not being willing to work towards your way, is an infantile strategy that is doomed to failure.”

    The police had to deal with a sovereign citizen recently here when she refused to pull over for the police.

    That’s always good for a funny news story.

  • Sai

    “Society’s Indisposable Son, I hope things get better for you.”

  • No. You’re missing the obvious. It’s not cultural violence. It’s racial. The USA has far more Africans and Hispanics than the other English-speaking nations and Africans alone commit 49.7 percent of the homicide in the USA. Look at the rate for the white population – which in FBI terms includes Hispanics – and that drops the rate of homicide by gun in the USA to 281%, right in line with the 288% gun per capita rate.

    How many of the mass shooters of the last years had been African?

  • I would not homeschool because it’s more about the adventure with your same-age peers rather than getting a super elite education.

    My husband went to an eccentric private school that does lots of outdoor stuff and world travel, and he has lots of stories and memories of being with other kids his age, backpacking through snowy mountains, canoeing in southeast Asia, hiking in Latin America, etc.

    You can always read the classics or do advanced math as an adult, but kids only have one childhood, and better to let them roam, play and experience social dynamics.

    FWIW I consider homeschooling to be just the parent(s), a curriculum and the parents’ own kids. Once you start introducing other kids that’s more like pooled private schooling.

  • doomwolf

    @VD

    “That may sounds scary, but the good news is that freedom tends to correspond to governments losing their monopoly power on violence.”

    By your definition Somalia must be the freest state on earth. Also, the argument that arming the populace prevents the government from becoming tyrannical has never made sense to me, because the government of any even partially industrialized nation will have a military with more and better weapons that they can use to crush an uprising. Granted, they may not kill everyone at once, and the survivors can retreat into the bush & proceed to engage in a long and bloody civil war financed through either crime (re: FARC in Columbia, IRA in Ulster) or an outside patron (central America in the 1980’s comes to mind). I do not see this as an improvement.

    Also, I favour gun control (within limits-hunting weapons are fine, assault rifles/pistols/high capacity mags which are designed solely to kill other people, not so much; I like having a state monopoly on violence), but not disarming the military or police. When the enemy is crossing the border, it’s too late to raise an army. My grandfather was in my regiment during WWII and he told me that, man-for-man, the Germans were better than the allies because they had more professionals.

    On that note, I think that our respective positions are so far apart that we will simply have to agree to disagree.

    @Mr Nervous Toes #227

    Further to your post there, my understanding (from reading the newspaper) is that many of the illegal firearms in Canada are smuggled in from the US, where there are fewer laws concerning their purchase. Criminal organizations then use them to pay for drugs they smuggle south. Why is that as soon as a society/population on this globe develops to the point that they have disposable income they promptly spend it on narcotics? I really do not understand it.

    @ Anacaona

    I can’t recall any non-white mass-shooters within recent memory. Does someone have evidence to correct me otherwise.

  • @Ana

    How many of the mass shooters of the last years had been African?

    Other than the D.C. snipers 10 years ago, I don’t recall any.

    However… Virginia Tech in ’07, Oikos earlier this year, in both cases the perps happened to be from Korea. Certainly changed the standard criminal profile for these kinds of things. As did Fort Hood.

  • JP

    “My grandfather was in my regiment during WWII and he told me that, man-for-man, the Germans were better than the allies because they had more professionals.”

    Of course they were.

    Modern Imperial Germany was a Prussian project, first and foremost.

  • Doomwolf…”Why is that as soon as a society/population on this globe develops to the point that they have disposable income they promptly spend it on narcotics?”

    Yet people who *don’t* have significant disposable income often spend what little they do have on narcotics…case in point, opium and the Chinese coolie.

    Someone observed that “happiness is that moment that we would not trade for nonexistence”…drugs or alcohol, taken in sufficient quantity, provides a pretty good simulation of nonexistence. Which would suggest that narcotics use in any society (past some baseline level) is a metric for unhappiness.

  • J

    Re non-white mass shooters: The AA guy in WI who shot up the spa where his wife worked–

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/us/three-killed-in-shooting-at-spa-in-brookfield-wis.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Re homeschool:

    It’s as good as the homeschooler. I think it can be a tremendous opportunity to tailor a child’s education to his/her own particular needs or a a tremendous disaster. It can also be very socially isolating as even those parents who band together to home school their kids tend to pick very similar people to work with. I was once offered an opportunity to be the de facto principal of a group of homeschoolers. I turned it down as didn’t believe a consolidated group of UMC parents would be able to provide the resources the local school district did.

  • Joe

    Re: non-white mass shooters: Fort hood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

    But that’s not the point, Ana. Violent crimes involving hand guns DO have a racial component. And it’s not the one to which you pointed.

  • J

    With the political BS about to spring into action. young men’s suicide rates have trebled under feminism (since 1965) (female rate is pretty much unchanged).

    I’m not sure that this isn’t a case of correlation being confused with causation, and I like to see a more complete argument regarding this.

    can we not look into where/how these psychos are being produced? something has gone wrong with society.

    Most of these really senseless shooting are carried out by psychotic young men with bad brain chemistry being a major factor. They differ from gang violence which generally has an understandable motivation (money, power, turf) and is often linked with lack of positive male role models.

  • J

    Re race and violence in the US

    Violence, as well as most other social ills, in the US tends to be linked far more strongly with socio-economic status than race or ethnicity. Middle class people of various races, creeds, etc. tend tomore strongly resemble each other across all measures than they do lower SES people of the same ethnic background.

  • J

    @Sassy

    I forgot to move the decimal two places over. Haha. I was wrong.
    *giggles*

    LMAO..If I had your address, I’d send you one of those t-shirts that say “Too pretty to learn math” as an Xmas gift.

  • J

    In that case, what does home schooling prepare them for?

    IME, many homeschoolers tend to cluster around two different ideologies–chrunchies and Christians. There is a smaller contingent that has had had a specific problem wih a local school system not meeting a child’s needs or that wants to tailor curriculum around a child’s individual needs, but many people who homeschol are more concerned with minimalizing the influence of mainstream society than in preparing a child for anything specific.

  • Lokland

    @david foster

    You cannot force what has already been volunteered.
    Both my mother and fathers families had numerous volunteers in both wars.

    I’m not as positive on family history in the first but as a general rule, the men on my fathers side excel at living for very long periods of time.

    Also, end of WWI saw conscription in Canada but only 10, 000 of those troops saw actual battle. Thank you 10th grade history.

    Last, taxation is a necessary fee for living in a civilized society. I simply think of it as paying my gym membership.
    If I want to use the equipment I must pay the fee.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    “I’d always assumed “it can’t happen there”, since Scandinavia has very strict gun control.”

    Yeah shit happens and it sucks.
    The ideal is to stop these from happening but thats impossible.

    But removing an automatic weapon from the hands of a potential killer is by far better than trying to find all the potential killers.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Personally, I have no dog in the fight, and believe that home schooling could be excellent – I have no doubt that I would have provided a top notch experience for my own kids, though they got that elsewhere in our case”

    Homeschooling is similar to communism.
    Looks absolutely excellent on paper.
    In certain real world situations it is by far superior to the norm.

    In most cases paper and world do not meet appropriately and the result is far inferior.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    Couple things.

    The succesionist movement in Quebec is pretty much done. The old people who want it are dead and dying and the young don’t care, the cost of tuition is far more important to them.

    Generally, its fallen in popularity every year since the last attempt.

    Also, believe it or not, its possible to leave a country/empire without violence and get along well with them afterwards.

    It involves being firm yet patient and realistic.

    See Canada and Her Majesty, 1867 for details.

  • Lok…”Last, taxation is a necessary fee for living in a civilized society. I simply think of it as paying my gym membership.
    If I want to use the equipment I must pay the fee.”

    What if the people running the gym are paying themselves large amounts of money, buying inferior equipment from their friends and overpaying for it, etc….and there is no other gym in town AND you’re not allowed to cancel your subscription?

  • Lokland

    @david foster

    You hire new management as the gym users are the owners. The managers work for them.

    The recent downfall of the liberal party is a prime example.

    They went from majority government to barely being represented in parliament over the course of a decade cause their replacement choice for the last guy was a crook.

  • JP

    The problem is that we have consumed democracy.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/12/consuming-democracy.html

    “e can define democracy, for the sake of the current discussion, as a form of government in which ordinary citizens have significant influence over the people and policies that affect their lives. That influence—the effective ability of citizens to make their voices heard in the corridors of power—is a fluid and complex thing. In most contemporary democracies, it’s exercised primarily through elections in which officials can be thrown out of office and replaced by somebody else. When a democracy’s more or less healthy, that’s an effective check; there are always other people angling for any office, whether it’s president or town dogcatcher, and an official who wants to hold onto her office needs to glance back constantly over her shoulder to make sure that her constituents aren’t irritated enough at her to throw their support to one of her rivals.

    The entire strategy of political protest depends on the threat of the next election. Why would it matter to anybody anywhere if a bunch of activists grab signs and go marching down Main Street, or for that matter down the Mall in Washington DC? Waving signs and chanting slogans may be good aerobic exercise, but that’s all it is; it has no effect on the political process unless it delivers a meaningful message to the politicians or the people. When protest matters, the message to the politicians is blunt: “This matters enough to us that we’re willing to show up and march down the street, and it should matter to you, too, if you want our votes next November.” The message to the people is less direct but equally forceful: “All these people are concerned about this issue; if you’re already concerned about it, you’re not alone; if you aren’t, you should learn more about it”—and the result, again, is meant to show up in the polls at the next election.

    You’ll notice that the strategy of protest thus only means anything if the protesters have the means, the motive, and the opportunity to follow through on these two messages. The politicians need to be given good reason to think that ignoring the protesters might indeed get them thrown out of office; the people need to be given good reason to think that the protesters speak for a significant fraction of the citizenry, and that their concerns are worth hearing. If these are lacking, again, it’s just aerobic exercise.

    That, in turn, is why protest in America has become as toothless as it is today. Perhaps, dear reader, you went to Washington DC sometime in the last decade to join a protest march to try to pressure the US government into doing something about global warming. If the president just then was a Democrat, he didn’t have to pay the least attention to the march, no matter how big and loud it was; he knew perfectly well that he could ignore all the issues that matter to you, break his campaign promises right and left, and plagiarize all the most hated policies of the previous occupant of the White House, without the least political risk to himself. All he had to do come election time is wave the scary Republicans at you, and you’d vote for him anyway. If he was a Republican, in turn, he knew with perfect certainty that you weren’t going to vote for him no matter what he did, and so he could ignore you with equal impunity.””

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Iggles: “I’ve heard horror stories where woman have been with their live-in boyfriend for 5+ years without a ring, they give an ultimatum and he chooses to end the relationship all while professing how much he still loves/cares about her!”
    Hum, hum, hum… I know of these situations personally, viewed from the other side of the gender fence, so to speak. This is a common mistake that many girls do: Presurizing their man into mariage and children. A ultimatum is the surest way to make the guy flee, even if he has deep feelings for her. Let me be ironic: I love the words “horror stories” here…
    A guy leaving a girl because she incessantly talked about mariage has nothing to do with the guy’s feelings for her not being strong or honest enough.
    I commented here at some point that women are generally one step ahead of men when it comes to what they want…
    A young guy may be reluctant to marry because:
    A) He’s simply still too immature to know whether he’s already willing to marry and have children later on.
    Or B) He’s unwilling to do so because he already has feelings of being short changed in some aspects of the relationship. A classical aspect is the sexual one, but there are many other ones, like having the feeling that the woman is taking the relationship in a one sided direction by using subtle stratagems for her OWN ends.
    “Good”, serious and sincere girls should be wise when dealing with guys in their 20’s not to pose as marriage blackmailers.

  • Hope: “My husband went to an eccentric private school that does lots of outdoor stuff and world travel, and he has lots of stories and memories of being with other kids his age, backpacking through snowy mountains, canoeing in southeast Asia, hiking in Latin America, etc.”

    IOW, lots of money. I get it now!

  • But that’s not the point, Ana. Violent crimes involving hand guns DO have a racial component. And it’s not the one to which you pointed.

    We were discussing mass shootings specifically and how to prevent it,thus mentioning the AA was not part of the point unless you can proof that the majority of the mass shooters are non-white.

  • @Doomwolf
    Good points all around, especially the article from the Washington Post.

    There are two semi-related issues in play. One is whether increased GC would reduce overall firearm deaths. Probably. The other is whether increased GC would prevent extraordinary mass shootings. Possibly.

    On the 1st point, I’ve always understood there to be a pretty weak correlation between GC and crime reduction in the U.S. Something like ~20% of firearm deaths occur in just 4 U.S. cities: NYC, D.C., Chicago, and Detroit. There’s a definite crime concentration going on, with vast portions of rural and suburban America quite safe. Even moreso than big cities like Berlin, London, and Paris.

    IF a disproportionate % of U.S. firearm deaths are the result of the drug trade and/or gang activity, then that might explain why crime rates are now lower than they were in 1960 (and certainly the 1930s). It’s more likely the result of increased law enforcement and higher incarceration rates, not GC per se. I could be wrong, but addressing the problems inherent in the “War on Drugs” would probably have a much bigger effect on violent crime reduction.

    On the 2nd point, though we seem to have more of these kinds of tragedies, other countries have experienced them too. Not as often, but Dunblane in ’96, Breivik in Norway last year (the deadliest thus far)… Australia, Britain, France, and Switzerland have each had a major incident in the last 10-15 years. The answer is always to make GC laws stricter, but these incidents keep happening. And mental health seems to be at the root of this particular problem.

    The problem with both issues is that it’s impossible to emulate Canadian or European or Japanese GC policy without limiting or eliminating rights already spelled out in the 2nd, 10th, and 14th Amendments.

    It’s pretty clear how Americans view their Bill of Rights: individually, not collectively. Ask someone to restrict his or her rights, whatever they may be, for the greater good, and the answer is unequivocally NO.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    ” individually, not collectively. Ask someone to restrict his or her rights, whatever they may be, for the greater good, and the answer is unequivocally NO.”

    This probably explains why I can’t seem to figure Americans out even slightly.

  • JP

    @Anacaina:

    “We were discussing mass shootings specifically and how to prevent it”

    By figure out who the sociopaths/psychopaths are and tracking/imprisoning/medicating/training them.

    Mass shootings generally require good impulse control and significant logistical planning.

    These people don’t just snap one day.

    They generally plan for a significant period of time.

  • @Loks

    This probably explains why I can’t seem to figure Americans out even slightly.

    Heh, quite right! As a communitarian and non-gun owner, I have zero problems with how you Canucks run things. I’d probably get along just find up North. At the same time, America is on average safer today than anytime in the last 50 years. Not to say things couldn’t improve (i.e. the drug war). But I don’t feel like I’m living in a crime-ravaged, fear-ridden wasteland as Michael Moore would suggest. 😯