Be a Lover Before You Are a Wife

It would appear, however, that this thread largely assumes that co-hab’s alleged benefits are asymmetrical, with the man gaining more than his fair share. Why is this?

Because the trade-off in mariage is that a man gives support and commitment in exchange for a stable source of sex, affection, love and support as well as practical services like housekeeping. When a woman “gives that away,” she gives away her biggest bargaining chip. A man who really loves her may stick around once the dopamine wears off, but unless there is a legal commitment that promotes staying together long enough to build other attachments, most relationships will fall apart when the initial attraction goes.

@J

“A man who really loves her may stick around once the dopamine wears off, but unless there is a legal commitment that promotes staying together long enough to build other attachments, most relationships will fall apart when the initial attraction goes.”

You do realize that this is defined as entrapment?
Also, I suppose you would change marriage laws to disable women the ease of leaving a marriage so that men cannot be abandoned, no?

My second question pertains to the argument that an extended period of unmarried co-hab is useful for de-romanticizing marriage and leading to the participants being able to make informed decisions—decisions based on a more accurate portrayal of married life.

There is someting to be said for that argument. One good thing about my marrying late is that I was able to look past the dopamine rush and analyze the situation and my husband’s personality. I only gave in to the dopamine because I saw enough commonalities and enough good in him to believe that love woul last after infatuation died.

One argument made on HUS for college LTRs over more casual arrangements is that LTRs provide valuable “mate-shopping” material. Wouldn’t unmarried co-hab also serve this important purpose?

Yes it would, but at the expense of a high opportunity cost that is disporpotionately borne by the woman. I have two sons; it wouldn’t blow me away of either one shacked up with some girl as long as he didn’t get her pregnant. IMO, the boys would have little to lose. If I had a daughter, OTOH, I’d do all that I could to discourage her just living with a guy.

Wouldn’t a man who was “inspired” to get married by a strategically-withholding female possibly be operating from a temporary, romance-flooded emotional state when he did propose?

That is a risk. Again, people need to be able to look beyond the infatuation at the character of a future spouse. I harp on this a lot, and I oftenb get feel that people really get what I’m saying.

I had a similar conversation with a female colleague once and her response was something like, “Oh no, the fantasy is critical—if they really knew what married life would entail, they wouldn’t be very motivated to get married.”

LOL. That also argues against the idea that living together benefits the man. If I had envsioned myself bleaching DH’s funky briefs before he put a ring on it, they’d have never gotten me down that aisle. Most of my female friends were similarly surprised at how much yucky stuff is involved in being a wife. We have a family friend who is big on the idea that women want the dress and the party. My retort to him is always that no dress is pretty enough to compenstate a woman for a lifetime of picking a man’s stinky socks of the floor.

She felt that people need to be legally obliged to work things out, and admitted that if the legal system was oriented against one party then that party would probably be making most of the concessions—forever—in the relationship (after the state became involved).

We hear that a lot in the ‘sphere. For me personally, the idea of raising two boys alone has always been a big motivator in working things out.

The value of marriage to a woman is that, as she ages and her SMV declines, she is not left alone.

Actuallhy, I’d say that the biggest value is in having a partner in childraising.

You do realize that this is defined as entrapment?

Not as long as divorce exists, no.

<i.Also, I suppose you would change marriage laws to disable women the ease of leaving a marriage so that men cannot be abandoned, no?

I think it does impact on women as well as men. I’ve tolerated problems in my marriage that I would not have tolerated in a shack-up precisely because I was married and I felt that I had legal and moral obligations to work things out. I also think that this “cash and prizes” stuff is way overblown. A few years after a divorce, most men have recovered financially; most women are scraping along.

“A college degree is basically equivalent to the medieval guild system”

Perhaps a little unfair…to the medieval guild system, that is. I’m pretty sure that if you went to someone who had a “silversmith” sign in the window, he would actually know how to perform the trade in a reasonable competent manner. What people got, in exchange for the higher prices they paid due to the guild’s restraint of trade, was reasonable assurance that the craftsman knew what he was doing.

Does anyone think that if you hire someone with a liberal arts degree from an American university that there is a reasonable assurance that he’ll be able to perform well the traditional liberal arts skills of reading complicated texts, writing same, developing logical arguments and critiquing them, speaking persuasively, etc?

And I personally witnessed an argument between a now divorced couple where the wife said something like: “I don’t need YOU to raise our kids. My girlfriend Donna is doing just fine on her own!” Of course, her friend “Donna” (can’t remember the actual name) was getting some very nice child support, and moved another man into her house within a year from the divorce, which I’m sure adds to the household income, off the books of course…

Natural selection at work. “Nice child support” or not, those kids were probaby better off financially in a two parent home than in a single parent home. Living with new “uncle daddy,” as DH would call him, may improve finances, but life with an “uncle daddy” is a bit of a crapshoot. While there are many wonderful stepdads out there, DH’s experience with a wide variety of uncle daddies gives me pause. If, God forbid, DH died tomorrow, I doubt there’d be another man in this house until my younger boy went off to college.

Re. learning the reality of marriage by cohabiting. Didn’t need it…I grew up in an intact two parent home….

Typo alert…I meant intact two parent MARITAL home.

@J:
Actually, I’d say that the biggest value is in having a partner in childraising.”

Isn’t it a female pleonasm, though? In the end, most women want to reach that goal, reach that security. This is maybe where one of the biggest antagonism between the genders lies: Eventually, man surrenders to that female need. And children consolidate this surrender. I’m not writing in a cynical way here. Just observing nature in motion.

“while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment”

While my first reflex would have made deny this in my 20′s, the desire to speak about those matters frankly and honestly must make me say that this is true. As an aside, I presume “commitment” here means marriage and/children, since all the rest, fidelity, task sharing, caring, is a non issue.

“One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.”

Well, I guess it’s cultural here. Marriage itself doesn’t ensure more commitment for both, at least in France or in the CZ. Committed, mature, live-in partners don’t necessarily need to sign at the bottom of a parchemin to prove they want to start a family together. I think it’s all about cultural rituals or traditions here.

Isn’t it a female pleonasm, though?

LOL. I had to look that one up. It sounds like a spooonerism for neoplasm.

In the end, most women want to reach that goal, reach that security.

Well, it’s postualted that among our hunter/gatherer ancestors relationships lasted long enought to raise an infant through toddlerhood and then broke off as people changed partners. Coupling seems to have evolved because it fostered effective childraising as opposed to proviving old ladies with lifelong company.

Eventually, man surrenders to that female need. And children consolidate this surrender. I’m not writing in a cynical way here. Just observing nature in motion.

I think the drive comes from the opposite direction. On an evolutuonary basis, I needed a father for my kids, that he has turned to be a good longterm mate is the bonus. The didn’t consolidate that; they drove it. I think much of gray divorce is not driven by women being “unhaaaappppyyyy” as much as it is driven by the evaporation of the need for a man to be involved with kids.

@Ted D
“They can pass all the GC laws they want, it WILL NOT get guns out of the hands of criminals”
THIS THIS THIS x 1000

Tony Martin scares me. Not the actual man, but the situation.

Also, about this quote posted earlier:

“Men want to “provide” for women. It’s just in our nature. Our goal is to provide a emotional/physical/financial force field around you so that you can live the best life you want to live and know that if something bad happens it will be OK because we got your back. Don’t get me wrong, we want you to be independent without us, too, it’s just that we want that sense of independence and individualism to thrive because we’ve provided an additional foundation of support for you to grow on. Remind us of how we enable that for you. It’s affirmation for us. “I feel so supported by you – I can do anything on my own, but knowing I have you in my life and that you have my back makes gives me that extra confidence.”

It sounds really nice, but what’s the catch?

I should also point out that a shotgun makes a five foot 90 lb. woman the equal of any man. Do we really want to give that up?

Mrs. Lanza was killed with her own gun.

and….here…..s Roissy (well, okay ‘chateau heartiste’)

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/older-moms-and-divorced-moms-raising-generation-of-psychopaths ?

a couple of good links to inspire thought. the comments, as usual, are more of a mixed bag.

also regarding autism etc with older parents, polymath makes a good point
http://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/autism-and-older-fathers-garbage-on-page-1/

The details reveal that the researchers found
(1) a correlation between paternal age and extra mutations in the child
(2) a correlation between paternal age and autism or schizophrenia in the child

but no evidence is given that the excess mutations are causing the autism, although certain slippery sentences insinuate that; no factor analysis shows that excess mutations have independent explanatory power for the autism frequency after the older-father effect is accounted for.

Yet another case of correlation being claimed to be causation.

There is an obvious alternative explanation: men with social deficits, who are known to be more likely to have autistic children, also marry later than average.

Am I the only one who noticed this?

apparently ‘yes’ (at least in feminist circles, you know the sciency, deep thinkers).

I honestly don’t know what a spoonerism for pleonasm means.

A spoonerism is an error in speech or deliberate play on words in which corresponding consonants, vowels, or morphemes are switched–flutterby for butterfly or pleonasm for neoplasm (an abnormal mass of tissue like a tumor).

Anyway, I didn’t write this as something making fun of your comment, but rather suggesting that this was a thruth spoken from a female opinion.

I understood that, but I think we have a chicken vs, egg disageement.

We’re basically talking about the same things, mirrored from the other side.

Right. What I am saying is that the female need for comitment springs directly from incapacitation during pregnancy and motherhood. Most of us want a man when that’s done, but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.

Mrs. Lanza was a survivalist.

She trained her son in firearms.

“Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse.

She is reported to have been struggling to hold herself together and had been stockpiling food, water and guns in the large home she shared with her 20-year-old son in Connecticut.

Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html

So, J, then you would have to conclude that marriage serves its purpose for women once the kids are grown, and after that, she’s good to go?

Stilll leaves hanging out there the problem that, at that later age, men’s average SMV is higher than women’s. So saying goodbye to hubby because the child-rearing is over, aside from being crass and immoral, is not likely to work out for wifey. Except to the extent that she can take assets and bilk him for alimoney. But finding a comparable or superior mate? Very unlikely. Ending up alone? Very likley–and not nearly as desired as feminist propaganda makes it out to be.

JP – although I’m not surprised that she was a “prepper”, that doesn’t mean everyone that is concerned about civil unrest is batshit crazy. For that matter, not every person that owns multiple guns is part of a militia either.

It isn’t guns or emergency preparedness that makes people do this kind of stuff. I know PLENTY of people you might call “preppers” that are far from crazy. Paranoid? Maybe. But, just because you are paranoid does NOT mean “they” aren’t watching you…

@Susan:
“A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person. ~Mignon McLaughlin”
“Implied in this message is that you fall out of love as well. Marriage makes you much more likely to stick it out”
Both observations are wonderfully right, and at the core of the problem when both parties start it out as “passionate” but need to transform it into something more “rational” once into the committed long term relationship reality. Again, I don’t know if marriage alone solves these problems and cement the relationship further.

@J
“Most of us want (stressed in bold) a man when that’s done, but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.”

Now all of a sudden I suspect the chicken is for you red, for me green, and the multi coloured egg is already blown up by some AK45.

@J
I agree that there’s more to know. the problem is that I doubt the media’s interest in getting to the truth. they are straight on to the gun control narrative (UK and US). that’s as far as their curiosity extends.

I’d like to know if the kid had been on ritalin and the like earlier in life? maybe he just got ‘it’ (insanity) from his mom? how nasty was the divorce? four to the head is beyond ‘normal’ murder (whatever that may be), there’s some deep hatred going on. the kids though? hell, I’ll never understand any ‘reason’ given there.

the link I have for suicide rates etc can be found by searching for ‘rebukingfeminism suicide’, the result I looked at was from 2009, but it is a little close to the knuckle in places – not for the squeemish. So, no direct link.

I also agree with you over older parents. older guy probably correlates with socially awkward. also correlates with older woman. so both parents are likely old and probably a little awkward.

his point was the crap science displayed (slippery sentences enabling the hard-of-thinking to jump to desired ‘conclusions’), my point (earlier posts here) was the glee with which feminists grabbed the ‘older dad’ bit and ran with it, leading to “older men can’t have children because genetics” – the pinnacle of feminist logic and science whenever menopause is mentioned.

“How interesting that Roissy links to a 2010 article about autism rising with mother’s age while ignoring 2012 articles about father’s age.”

where you linked to the father’s age and not the mother’s… lmao

as J said, this was vintage stuff for that site. I wasn’t making a scientific claim of credentials, just pointing out vintage Roissy making points that might be of interest

anyway, g’night. I am fighting my way to the end of a loooong book that has failed to inspire delight so far, but cannot just be dropped. “The Great North Road”, by Peter F Hamilton – wish me luck. Many of his other books have been big and impressive…this one is just big (so far)

“You’re missing the point. Nearly half of American households have a female as the primary breadwinner. Women are more capable of supporting themselves than ever.”

Susan, this is only true once you factor in the gigantic array of state and corporate support for single motherhood. How many of these fabulous “working women”–they are not all middle or even senior management, you know–could REALLY make it “on their own” without state or company subsidized day care and the like?

@Escoffier
you go guy, and I’m gone

BTW, when companies offer in-house or subsidized outside day care, they always sell it as part of their overall effort to be a supportive employer. It’s a perq, you see, a benefit to working at that enlightened company.

And no doubt many of the people who run those programs see them exactly that way. But there are crasser calculations at work, too.

For one thing, such programs are good PR, good at posititioning the company on the “right side” of feminism, hence good at boosting its overall image, especially with women. It’s also a form of preemptivev pay-off. The more you anticipate and give in to shake-down type demands, and couch surrender as freely chosen virtue, the less likely you are to be the target of boycotts and bad press.

Second, don’t doubt that hard monetary calculation goes into this. Companies know what they spend on these perqs and they know what they spend on employees, including single women with children. They have done the math know that day care+single mom wages = less than paying a man who needs that salary to support a family. On an individual level, of course, no one is making this calculation but on a mass, workforce level it was made decades ago. And now big business has a vested interest in keeping it going.

Female workforce participation has depressed overall wages. It’s one of the main reason that real wages have stagnated for 40 years. But “productivity” and profitability, overall, have risen. The money that used to be paid in wages has been redistributed up.

Immigration has the same effect, as it is intended to do.

“Wikipedia cites a major cause of gray divorce: Hubby retires and is now on the scene wanting his every need met 24/7 lol. ‘Honey, what’s for lunch?’”

Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.

J – “If I were give men some sisterly advice for how to have a long and happy marriage, I’d say the best bet for a wife is a woman with a high post-menopausal sex drive and enough mannish interests to motivate her to want/need a male buddy.”

And how exactly is a guy supposed to land this awesome woman? I can see how it may be easy to find a woman with “manly” interests, but how in the hell would she or he know how “high drive” she will be post-menopause? I mean, if you marry her when she is 30, you’ve still got a good 10 to 15 years before you know what you’ll end up with for the rest of your married life, and to be honest the idea that she may completely fizzle out on the sex drive side of the relationship is pretty freaking scary.

That being said, if more women took the job of “regular, decent sex” for their husbands seriously regardless of her actual drive to HAVE sex, this wouldn’t be much of an issue. But of course, we can’t go telling women that it is their “duty” to sex up their husbands. It sounds WAY too much like an obligation, and I’ll add demeaning to women that all their husband wants is a piece of ass. Nevermind the fact that he agreed to marry you accepting that YOU would be his only sexual release (other than solo acts of course) for the REST OF HIS LIFE… But hey, if you don’t really want sex anymore, he should be good with that. Right?

Does having to have sex with your husband even though you aren’t really horny one of those “inconveniences of marriage” you mentioned?

I’d like to know if the kid had been on ritalin and the like earlier in life?

No idea though I did se that he had been on an anti-psychotic med.

maybe he just got ‘it’ (insanity) from his mom? how nasty was the divorce?

Again, no idea.

four to the head is beyond ‘normal’ murder (whatever that may be), there’s some deep hatred going on. the kids though? hell, I’ll never understand any ‘reason’ given there.

The voices in his head said to do it. There’s nothing to understand.

I also agree with you over older parents. older guy probably correlates with socially awkward. also correlates with older woman. so both parents are likely old and probably a little awkward.

She was 52 and has at least one older son of 24. She’d have been 28 when she had him and probably married for a few years at that point. IDK dad’s age.

his point was the crap science displayed (slippery sentences enabling the hard-of-thinking to jump to desired ‘conclusions’), my point (earlier posts here) was the glee with which feminists grabbed the ‘older dad’ bit and ran with it, leading to “older men can’t have children because genetics” – the pinnacle of feminist logic and science whenever menopause is mentioned.

Whatever the political ramifications are, younger is better for both sexes physiologically.

“Female workforce participation has depressed overall wages. It’s one of the main reason that real wages have stagnated for 40 years. But “productivity” and profitability, overall, have risen. The money that used to be paid in wages has been redistributed up.”

Weren’t women and children often preferred in industrial revolution England because they were cheaper and more docile than men?

At least that was my historical understanding of 19th century Britain.

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/IndustrialRevolution/womenandchildren.htm#.UM95km_Ae2A

Wow, J, maybe I am reading you wrong, but it sounds like you have totally bought into the whole cult of modern divorce. Bottom line, if she wants to, it’s A-OK!

Yes, you are in fact. I’m explaining why a subset of women get gray divorces; you and some others are confusing that with advocacy. I belive that Susan is doing the same. Although I can not speak for her, I believe that one thing she and I share is a genuine liking for our husbands and a large likelihood of lifelong marriage.

Amazing how the female mind always goes right to control. No. There isn’t. How is it that with more than 6,000 years of written history to peruse, anyone still thinks human action can be controlled.
I meant control in the sense mass killings being a first world phenomena there should be something other cultures have that makes them avoid it, As violent as my country is people kill in the fit of passion is almost unheard of having someone plotting killing people for days or weeks and doing so.
Really Vox don’t try to claim the “female mind” card every time you feel like it without checking for clarification, specially after you made a faulty connection with “mass killings is a result of race” with no proof of AA doing the massive killings in the same numbers. It makes you look bad

“Wikipedia cites a major cause of gray divorce: Hubby retires and is now on the scene wanting his every need met 24/7 lol. ‘Honey, what’s for lunch?’”

Solution: leave him because he asked for a sandwich.

I suppose that’s one consolation for being a late-marrying, socially awkward father of an autistic son. I learned to do for myself; my wife won’t leave me for that reason!

Anacaona:

“Amok” is from the Malay. A quiet, unassuming man starts cutting on everyone around him until stopped. No telling how much planning is involved.

It happens in China, too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910
I don’t know if the Chinese have a particular word for the phenomenon.

“but we don’t necessarily need one to fulfill our material needs.”

true, as long as the state picks up the bill (so men (and women) at large), or you can shank him for child payments

The subject was gray divorce; they’d have to shank him for grandchild payments .

@Susan:
“I don’t think marriage solves any problems – ”

Of course Susan, I didn’t mean it that way, nor do I think that long term relationships solves it either. We’re not meant to meet each other (men women) on earth to solve our own individual problems. That’s always been one of my biggest dissent about American culture, but that’s another debate.
“It’s just that we’re more likely to figure out ways to solve them if we’re legally joined.”
I agree, but “legally or not” is another debate.
“Women in particular have bought into the whole “soulmate” myth of marriage, with “happy ever after” – no marriages deliver uninterrupted bliss. ”
I guess some of the most seemingly mysoginistic comentators here would surprisingly agree with you, once they would for once lower their silly “man guard” and female bashing style of speech.

I’d imagine that is because they didn’t spend much time together prior to retirement. I saw a LOT of that growing up, and it always baffled me. Why marry someone you don’t want to spend time with?

I think it was very common in lower SES couples, especially those with narrowly defined sex roles and therefore no common interests. My folks were like that for awhile. They had a lot of same sex friends and then his died. Then he was constantly underfoot, and he drove her nuts. Then they eventually figured out things to do together–golf, bowl, cook, dance–and a new equalibrium was obtained.

@ SW:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/opinion/sunday/the-downside-of-cohabiting-before-marriage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Women are more likely to view cohabitation as a step toward marriage, while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment, and this gender asymmetry is associated with negative interactions and lower levels of commitment even after the relationship progresses to marriage. One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.

I agree with this 100%

People view cohabitation as a convenient living arrangement for couples and as “marriage-lite”.

As a former cohabitator I have lots of opinions on it. Personally, for me I’d rather live with a roommate than someone I’m dating. Full stop. It’s a pill that goes sour. IMO, it’s better to be engaged or married before tying your lives together in that way. With someone you’re building a life with there’s a sense of permanence that isn’t there when your just dating.

J,

I just read some of your follow-up clarifying comments explaining you weren’t advocating so that was my misunderstanding.

@Anacaona:

“Is China not part of the first world?”

No, it’s not.

It’s the second world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World

Could evidence of this high sex drive be compiled during an extended pre-marriage co-hab period?

Could be, but you never really know someone until you’ve been married a few years. I think even cohabitors are on their best behavior.

Perhaps both parties could make better decisions if the true, long-term sexual condition of the relationship was known in advance.

Probably but how? So many things change how a couple relate: kids, illesses, emotional hurts, aging, menopause, declining testerone, work stresses…It’s not that predictable. You pays your money and you takes your chances. You just have to hope you’ve picked someone who is committed to working out problems and know that problems will occur.

the counseling community basically advises men that this is inevitable, that the relationship should “evolve” and “mature” to favor largely asexual companionship punctuated by infrequent sex, and so on.

That’s nuts; people have a right to sexual satisfaction within their marriages.

a man who successfully games his wife may end up feeling little genuine validation of his real attractiveness, and could even end up with PUA-type cynicism.

Yeah.

So…are there practical, reliable preventative steps that men can take to manage this risk and uncover real sexual compatibility?

Assure personal compatibility and good faith first. The other should fall into place.

Speaking for myself, it has made the whole “commitment” thing much more frightening than it probably needs to be.

Part of that is where you are hanging out on the net. I think there are far fewer sexless marriages IRL than are represented in the ‘sphere, which aggregates that sort of thing. I think most married women do enjoy sex.

@INTJ

I think three brackets makes more sense. Perhaps something based on per-capita GDP:

1) Poor $20,000 (e.g. USA, S. Korea)

In the poor countries, many struggle with subsistence or have few “luxury” items.

In the medium countries, conditions aren’t easy but most have quite a few luxury items like tv, cell-phones, internet, cars, etc.

In the rich countries, people have tons of stuff and feel poor if they don’t have a nice new car and a big house.

@Anacaona

I don’t really want to learn all the details either. I have little to no sympathy for the guy, and little to no sympathy for his mother, depending on how much she made his problems worse.

My sympathies are with the other victims and their families, much as if they had been in a plane crash or tornado or such. School children are much more likely to get hurt in a bus accident. Improving school bus safety would be a much better use of the public’s time.

All the attention these shooters should be given is to make sure of their identity (in criminal court), put them down like mad dogs, and dispose of the medical waste in a responsible manner. Guilty by reason of insanity.

@ HanSolo

Put the ampersand (&) before lt and gt to create angle brackets.

Sue: “Sex becomes something you have at night when you’re tired, in the few hours between the kids falling asleep and the kids waking up.”

After 3 kids: nawp. Maybe if you both work long hours, and subscribe to high-intensity patenting philosophy, of which we do neither. Our longest drought was after her VBAC where there was too much pain for 3-odd weeks. So we just availed ourselves of alternate methods.

Pretty much *all* the INxx couples I know have a kid or two on the spectrum, from mild to moderate….

Really? DH and I are INTJ/P, respectively. Our sons are both extremely bright, musical and relatively social–not A clique, but part of a social group. The older one is a bit STEM-y, but also extraordinarily funny. The younger is athletic and pretty funny as well.

I sometimes think that humor is what keeps the older boy off the spectrum though.

Pretty much *all* the INxx couples I know have a kid or two on the spectrum, from mild to moderate. Then again, the ES/EN couples tend to produce socially skilled kids… who do badly in school and have other problems. Mine are highest honors, they just won’t have girlfriends until it’s too late. One of my friends has a socially gifted natural alpha who plays lacrosse in 6th grade… but can barely read.

Interesting Hubby is IS and I am EN so I guess kid can go either way? I do get the feeling that men tend to be more introverted thus is likely the kid will be like his father.

@J

So the late Polish-American action movie star Charles Bronson was literally a “son of a gun”?

ń is a different sound than n, but then, I really started to laugh after this suggestion. I will add it to my long list of polinglish words and sentences which are funny only to those who know both Polish and English (like e.g. “tea- who you – yeah bunny” which evokes paroxisms of laughter from Poles, especially when spoken by English)

@Sai

Tony Martin was a guy living alone out in an isolated country area in which the police took no effective interest, their response time was far too long to achieve anything. He had been repeatedly robbed (along with others in the area) with no sign of the police doing anything practical about it (the rural nature of the area made this hard to do). Given the kid’s criminal record (mentioned in the wikipedia page that was linked to) it was pretty likely that the police had some idea who they should be looking at regarding the crimewave sweeping the area. It seems Tony Martin felt pushed to doing something himself, but we will never know if he intended to kill. If the fatal shot was the last of the three (IDK), then it could have been that he was aiming for their legs and the early shots caused the gun to ‘climb’ (recoil from the first raised the barrel) – again IDK.

In the US I doubt that this story would have made more than the front page of the local paper, here it was wall-to-wall frontpage nationally – because they prosecuted him for murder when many saw his stand as reasonable given the circumstances. The 10-2 verdict for murder suggests that the jury heard something pretty compelling about him that reduces his just-an-innocent-guy-on-the-street-in-fear-of-his-life in doubt (IDK what). The Daily Wail (daily mail) is well known for spinning the story to suit its readers’ preference for outrage – they weren’t alone, I’m sure, in ramping up the story in this case.

The current government has made noises (not any actual laws) that would mean prosecution for such an incident nowdays would be far less likely. Public opinion on sentencing for theft has been recognised (at least for political P.R. purposes).

Wiki says that he fired three times, so not sure why it mentions shotgun certs vs firearms certs. a 2+1 shotgun (two in the mag and one in the chamber) is legal on a shotgun certificate. maybe the page is failing to mention relevant information(?) from what it says that shotgun could have been shotgun cert legal (no big deal in a farming area, which this was) and he emptied it (2+1 = 3 rounds) with no reloading required to do what he did. If he had ‘arrested’ them using the shotgun then he would have probably been harder prosecuted than them. He had an illegal weapon, they were robbers that had extensive police records for which they had previously received no effective corrective punishment (clearly). This is where the public interest sprang from I reckon – perceived ineffective sentencing of the guilty.

Civilisation makes a deal with the population; You leave justice to us ‘professionals’ and we regulate your ability to do it yourself. Fine. (Your constitution gives you rights beyond most countries). When civilisation fails to protect, in fact ignores that any problem exists and lets the population pay the price indefinitely…well, this kind of thing is what happens. I’m not saying that what he did was right, but the societal contract was broken by the state first. Add that he was a troubled guy, and there you go. Public support for him was (and is) very real, the public didn’t hear everything that the jury did though…

I would suggest that the weapons buying wave striking the US is a sign that many private individuals are losing faith that the state will quell the bad guys come the ‘zombie apocalypse’ (PC acceptable term for when the shit hits the fan). They are worried that GC will leave them at the ‘mercy’ of violent, amoral, thieving toe-rags. Given talk pre-election that there could be rioting if B.O. failed to win (this appalled me. this was written about in the press? and not as any big deal that I saw – WTF?), I can’t say that I’m really surprised.

The state is failing the populace, the populace is realising this and taking corrective measures. It is going to be very interesting what happens if B.O. tries to disarm the good guys…how will the voters split between GC and self-protection? Risky stuff politically, especially as he had been reducing funds for school safety measures over the last few years (a few US blogs are saying).

The state needs to rebuild trust in that they will be there when they are needed. Currently people are voting with their wallets. I prefer the olden days before police wore stab vests in the UK and some of them have arms available – this started well within my memory.

@407 Just1Z

I think all the common law countries recognized the right to self defense until recently. It’s a matter of practicality, after all. “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.” The US Supreme Court even ruled that the police have no legal obligation to prevent crime.

In the Tony Martin case I suspect that the judge gave the jurors very narrow instructions about the law and their responsibilities. This can have a huge effect on the verdict. In the US the verdict in criminal cases must be unanimous.

IMDB says that Charles Bronson was Lithuanian.

When my daughter was born, my boss commented that “A good mother will drop you like an old sock.” This was pretty much in line with my expectations.

@D.P.
I remember seeing an article a few years ago that gave analysis on the number of deaths in spree killings in states allowing concealed carry and those that did not.
AFAICR it concluded that non-CCW state sprees had an average of 9(??? *) extra deaths. that was the extra death toll for having to wait for the police.

Having said that I don’t really like seeing armed guards around and about airports. The idea of a largely armed populace isn’t especially tempting to me, and I’m not gun averse. I can see why many people want tighter GC, it’s just that I think that it is too late (too many guns out there). You have to make policy based on reality, reality is very hard for politicians to address – and it may not make them popular.

quote from a UK political comedy of the Thatcher era. Two civil servants (advisors / staff) talking along with a junior guy

Sir Humphrey: There are four words you have to work into a proposal if you want a Minister to accept it.
Sir Frank: Quick, simple, popular, cheap. And equally there are four words to be included in a proposal if you want it thrown out.
Sir Humphrey: Complicated, lengthy, expensive, controversial. And if you want to be really sure that the Minister doesn’t accept it you must say the decision is courageous.
Bernard: And that’s worse than controversial?
Sir Humphrey: (laughs) Controversial only means this will lose you votes, courageous means this will lose you the election.

“Yes minister” / “Yes Prime Minister”

(*I couldn’t find the article last time I looked).

@DP
yep, our ones are currently out of power, but that merely allows them free rein to say ‘free money for everybody, the government are just meanies, we’re nice guys and girls’. to be fair, when they were in power they did spend like there’s no tomorrow, maybe there’s no pretence, they truly are amoral children with daddy’s credit card. as opposed to the clueless buffoons actually ‘in power’.

@420 Just1Z

I hate when that happens. I get it more with movies, somehow.

J: “Really? DH and I are INTJ/P, respectively. Our sons are both extremely bright, musical and relatively social–not A clique, but part of a social group.”

Your kids are much older than the kids I’m talking about.

Hope: “OTC, do you know any other double INFJ couples?”

Not that I can think of, IxFx men seem *really* rare to me. It’s kinda hard for me tell – us INxx couples don’t have huge social circles.

Sue: “I think you’ll find that the phenomenon of marital sex frequency waning while children are young is real for most people.”

I may be an outlier NOW, but not back then. Of course, I understand a short a break, and then some moderate degree of hormonal “waning” – but shutting off the degree you describe (nearly completely), appears to be a matter of scheduling and choice.

I strongly believe that (barring obvious physical problems) if you’re sleeping in the same bed, then having sex less than every other day is a matter of choice and priorities. Whether it’s 2 months or 2 decades.

I thought Charles Bronson was Lithuanian.

Just checked. Wikipedia says both. The border between those two nations has been pretty fluid over the centuries though.

@Ted

It just occured to me that if he had tats my son would be Deadmau5. Now I feel scared.

J – It just occured to me that if he had tats my son would be Deadmau5. Now I feel scared.”

Deadmau5 is pretty good stuff! Right up there with Skrillex (I know it is probably uncool to “like” Skrillex now that he is kinda popular but whatever…)

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out Dub-step is largely “staffed” with very STEMy/Spergy guys. It is super technical, multi-layered, electronic music that can be made by a single person and a computer. I write a fair bit of house/dance/trance stuff when I’m bored. Sometimes while laying in bed next to the wife. She likes a few TV shows I can hardly stomach, so I put on the headphones and rock out the iPad while she enjoys her trash TV.

I don’t even understand the TV shows other women watch. Sadly I’m also too sensitive to watch the “good” shows like Game of Thrones. I got way into plotlines and characters’ emotions back when I did watch some shows.

Not that I have time to watch TV… I’d rather do a quickie with the hubby with the small amounts of free time I have.

Ouch. Popup ad assault on iPad, with close buttons off-screen and slow scrolling speed. This makes me sad.

I don’t have insomnia, I just can’t sleep in like I used to. I have to trouble going to sleep at night.

@J
How’s come you could sing in Polish as a kid? Polish friends or partial Polish ancestry?

Deadmau5 is pretty good stuff! Right up there with Skrillex (I know it is probably uncool to “like” Skrillex now that he is kinda popular but whatever…)

If Deadmau5 and Skrillex got married and adopted my son, he’d be in 7th heaven.

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out Dub-step is largely “staffed” with very STEMy/Spergy guys. It is super technical, multi-layered, electronic music that can be made by a single person and a computer.

Yeah, I think that’s what my son likes about it.

I write a fair bit of house/dance/trance stuff when I’m bored.

Cool. You should post a sound file!

@J

Yeah, I’ve noticed that Poles were really anxious to Americanize, more so than other immigrant groups. Any idea why?

Poles generally come in two flavours: ultra-nationalists and those, who are somehow embarassed by what they see a burden: martyrology+constant whining+constant bragging