Hi Susan,
I have a problem and I am miserable about it. For the last six months I have been dating this wonderful, amazing guy. He has made me so happy and I thought he really cared about me until recently. You see, I think he is love with my sister “Chloe.”
I am the quiet shy girl who is smart and dependable. I get along with everybody and you would be hard pressed to find anybody with anything bad to say about me. My sister Chloe is the opposite of me. She is the fun loving wild party girl who is promiscuous and sexy. Chloe always has to be the center of attention and she doesn’t get along with 99% of the women in her social circle.
My boyfriend didn’t meet Chloe or the rest of my family until we had been dating for about 3 months. I have noticed that he is always asking questions about Chloe but I always thought it was just curiousity about my family. However, I have realized that he never asks about my other sister or brother. He is only interested in Chloe. And he is constantly bringing her up in conversation.
This weekend he was talking to my mom and expressed interest in looking at pictures of me of when I was a little kid. My mom brought out the family photo album so that he could see the pictures. However, he only had eyes for Chloe. All he could say as he looked through the photos was “There’s Chloe…Is that Chloe…Where is Chloe…Here is Chloe…etc.” He only noticed me once. It hurt my feelings to see him staring at her so intently.
Chloe lives in another city and he actually wanted to know why she doesn’t get a job where I live. Nobody has ever mentioned Chloe moving to the same city as me and Chloe herself has never mentioned getting a job here. In fact, Chloe mentioned that she had applied for a job transfer to another state. My parents are okay with this but my boyfriend asked several times if she was really going. I had to reassure him several times that there is a lot of competition for the position that Chloe wants so she probably won’t get it. He seemed so worried and serious when Chloe first announced that she had applied for this job transfer.
My boyfriend will ask questions every now and then to try and get information about Chloe. It is like he wants to know everything that there is to know about her. He no longer shows interest in learning about my likes and dislikes. And of course, Chloe can do no wrong in his eyes. She is outright materialistic and superficial in his presence but that doesn’t bother him at all.
I worry that he is only with me because he is settling and it is Chloe who he really wants. He has made it apparent that he wants to get married and have many kids. I am afraid that he thinks I will make a good wife and mother and that is why he is in a relationship with me. My boyfriend is the beta guy who was ignored by girls in high school and college. He studied hard and now has a job making over $100,000 a year. Chloe thinks he is a nice but boring guy.
I don’t want to be with him if it is Chloe that he truly wants. I am planning to confront him about this but I don’t know if he will tell me the truth. He really wants to get married and have that large family soon. And of course Chloe currently has a boyfriend.
What should I do? I am being crazy or do you think he really is interested in Chloe?
Karen
Dear Karen,
I am so sorry that you feel tormented with worry and anxiety about your relationship! I think most women have had the experience of being in a relationship and feel their boyfriend or even husband pulling away as they become preoccupied with someone else. The fact that this is happening with your sister must make this many times worse.
While I find your boyfriend’s behavior troubling and think you are right to be concerned, I’m going to run through the best and worst case scenarios here.
Best-Case Scenario
Your boyfriend is fascinated with Chloe in a car wreck kind of way. He doesn’t want to look, but he can’t avert his eyes. He is fascinated by her wild ways, her promiscuity, her “lust for life” and her living in the moment. He is curious to learn more about this creature so unlike the women he has spent time with. He may well be attracted to her in a superficial way while knowing he would never choose a woman like Chloe for a long-term relationship or marriage. If she is the kind of girl that never gave him the time of day before, and he perceives that his SMV is higher now, he may crave the validation of attracting a girl who generally goes for manwhores and asshats.
He loves you, truly, and would not dream of dating Chloe even if he had the chance. He understands that you are wife and mother material, which is hardly something that men “settle” for – no sane man would even consider marrying a woman who did not meet that standard. In addition, he is well aware that breaking up with one sister and taking up with another would never be possible – the thought has never entered his mind, much less become a preoccupation or fantasy.
His cluelessness is troubling. His failure to observe your hurt feelings shows some insensitivity about the effect of his actions on his girlfriend – he should be aware that making such a fuss would cause you discomfort at the very least. Expressing a simultaneous curiosity about your sister and disinterest in you is careless, and suggests that he is very much taking you for granted.
Worst-Case Scenario
Your boyfriend has a mad crush on Chloe, bordering on obsession. Ever since he saw her, she is the sister that truly preoccupies his thoughts. He fantasizes about having sex with her, and possibly even dating her seriously. He may or may not know the degree of her sluttiness, but in the short-term he does not care. He is in a state of temporary insanity.
At this point, you mean less as a girlfriend than as a source of access to Chloe. He is not above using your relationship to feed his curiosity and stoke the flames of his mania. He has no idea how to proceed or how to get Chloe to take notice of him, but if she pulled him into a dark corner by chance he would not hesitate to cheat on you by hooking up with your sister.
I find your boyfriend’s behavior very troubling and unempathic in either case, and if I were your mother I would probably have noticed his behavior in looking at the photos and would harbor deep misgivings. Without knowing his side of this story, it’s impossible to know which of these scenarios comes closest, or whether the truth is somewhere in the middle. I urge you to tell him very clearly and frankly what you have observed, and how his behavior has made you feel. Be prepared to give concrete examples in case he suggests that you are imagining things, or even worse, plays the “psycho” card. His response, whether one of denial, ignorance, guilt, or an eagerness to make things right, will tell you whether you are right to be worried.
For you to remain in the relationship and consider marriage, it is imperative that you reach a point of 100% certainty with regard to his love for you. The thought of going through life worrying about his being alone in a room with your sister is intolerable, at least to me. You cannot stay with him if you have an iota of doubt on this score.
I’m afraid you’re either dating a fuckwit or a douchebag, but I do encourage you to address it directly and give him every opportunity to respond. If he can’t make it right, I urge you to recognize the fact that Wonderful, Amazing Boyfriend has been replaced by someone you really don’t want to date at all.
As Maya Angelou said, “Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.” If you are not his top priority, he is not the man for you. Do not settle for anything less than the knowledge that a man is head over heels in love with you. If that is not the case, your best strategy is to end it, heal, and then get back out there.
I hope this helps, good luck.
Susan
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“Every mans personal dream is the virginal girl who becomes his willing slut.”
Now, for “grandma”s enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WP2exZurfc
“Every” is obviously the wrong word here.
@Just1Z
Hahahahahahahaha
Ever heard this one :
@SusanWalsh
“Please justify this claim. I see no evidence of Karen’s having been turned on by pain. AFAICT, she is fearful and halfway to heartbreak.”
the evidence is presupposed; girls are drawn to drama, they’ll create it if there is none.
@tito
“girls are drawn to drama, they’ll create it if there is none.”
True, they’re prompt to drama, but that’s because they want to provoke us in order to find out about our own emotional state of mind about them. I don’t think the “drama part” is part of a silly scheme. It’s more like their impulsive emotional reactions feel like getting hurt by bumpimg into a brick wall.
@ Marellus – nice!
this one needs ze french accent to work mes amis
so, the French Foreign Legion patrol was out in the desert. After a few hours in the baking sun, Pierre suddenly stared out into the distance, dropped his gun and started running for the horizon. His mates caught up and stopped him saying, “Pierre what are you doing, are you crazeee?”
“Pas du tout!”, said Pierre, “I can see eet, ze bacon tree over zere!”, he pointed at a green dot in the distance. “I can smell eeet!”
He broke free and ran off leaving his mates following in his wake. Just as he got to it some heads popped up over the dunes, followed by guns…
CRAC! CRAC! rang the shots and Pierre fell to the ground mortally wounded.
His friends drove off ze bad guys and ran to him, cradling his dying head. His last words were, “Zat was no bacon tree! zat was ze ‘ambush”
ambush … ham bush … bacon tree? tumbleweeds? I don’t know why I bother sharing my top quality gags with you lot.
@ tito,
Not All Women Are Like That.
The fact that you say this as if it’s a universal truth says a lot about you and the women you’re into!
I hate drama. My friends hate drama. We distance ourselves and/or cut off drama loving people because dealing with their pettiness is draining.
@Just1Z
A guy walks in Belfast and suddenly feels a gun against his back.
Catholic or Protestant ? a voice rasped.
The guy knows he’s toast either way, so replies :
I’m Jewish !
The voice replies:Then I must be the luckiest Arab in Ireland
lmao! nice one Marellus
@Justiz:
Good one, but you could just as well change the nationality and it would work anywhere in the world… Just as well.
got to go off and do something, so I’ll leave you with my favourite;
be back after some beer, or maybe not
I wouldn’t want him. He broke it. Done-zo. Divorce. Better luck next time.
And here we see another example of the hierarchy at work. The delta upsets the lesser sister and gets dumped. The beta sticks with the lesser sister and conceals his attraction to the hotter one. The alpha dumps the lesser sister, tags the hotter one, then dumps her too.
The sigma, of course, suggests a threesome. Maybe it flies, maybe not. But if one must go down, best go down in style.
Once again proving that betas are the best partners, hands down.
@DV
the first one? yeah. I think that the ‘legendary passion’ of the French helps.
I told it to my Frnech colleagues when I worked in France for a few years, they didn’t lynch me…J’adore la vie francaise. J’ai passe quelques annees en provence. la mer etait bleu et le ciel aussi. magnifique!
bon soir
The second one does need a language that drops ‘H’s
For all we know Karen is sexy as hell in private. She’s just not wearing her sexiness on her sleeve. She refers to the passion they felt in their first three months. Why is everyone assuming that Chloe’s narcissistic, materialistic, in your face sluttiness trumps what Karen has to offer?
This is not quite right. Girls like to have their emotions activated. Generally we prefer to avoid pain and heartbreak, though uncertainty has its place. In this case, Karen’s emotions are not the least bit enjoyable or arousing. The best thing she can do is take action to put an end to her humiliation. After that she will grieve (not fun) until she achieves catharsis (a bit more fun), and ultimately a man who activates her emotions in a gratifying and pleasurable way (the most fun).
Re. sibling rivalry between Karen and Chloe; I sensed that has existed as well, that Karen has been more critical of Chloe because they are so different from each other and perhaps with different results in their experiences with others, their parents, and in dating?
It seems though, that they have been at a point that they can get along notwithstanding those. But this story with the Boyfriend is threatening to break up the equilibrium, especially if this is the first time something like this has happened. That is what in my mind makes the whole situation reek of some serious evil.
So Chloe has not been an open threat, but Boyfriend is putting Karen in a position where she might start to see Chloe as one, and that is no good, not for them and not for their family dynamics. After this sort of episode, she will be heightened to future boyfriends acting like this current one.
And it need not be about being attracted to Chloe and in such obvious ways; it need only be that a boyfriend sees them side by side and wonders why Karen pales in comparison, a perfect invitation to find someone more like Chloe.
I agree, Karen needs to ramp up the sexiness.
”For all we know Karen is sexy as hell in private. She’s just not wearing her sexiness on her sleeve. She refers to the passion they felt in their first three months. Why is everyone assuming that Chloe’s narcissistic, materialistic, in your face sluttiness trumps what Karen has to offer?”
Because we wouldn’t be here discussing whether that guy is VD beta, A roissy Alpha, a delta to be found in the Nile River, an INTJ or whatever that is, because a guy either looks to be trading up or is too insecure(a beta, a delta, a gamma, a green man from mars) when he displays interest in any other woman beyond the woman he’s dating.
I know quite a few guys who banged their girlfriend’s sisters. They’re Alpha as one can be and they aren’t considered any weird, or as losers by the men who admire them – most of their friends.
@Susan @VD: The beta sticks with the lesser sister and conceals his attraction to the hotter one.
Once again proving that betas are the best partners, hands down.
Why is everyone assuming that Chloe’s narcissistic, materialistic, in your face sluttiness trumps what Karen has to offer?
Me: I agree, describing this guy as a beta seems an insult to betas throughout the world; it seems to me as though more betas have a sense of how to behave and are not totally clueless.
I don’t think that Karen needs to be narcissistic, materialistic and in your face slutty; but it seems to me that there needs to be something that when a new boyfriend is meeting Chloe for the first time that she will not pale in comparison. All of that might not be relevant, of course, if she never dates a guy like Boyfriend ever again. So it is a matter of picking different types of guys? Avoiding guys who seem more like deltas?
“Why is everyone assuming that Chloe’s narcissistic, materialistic, in your face sluttiness trumps what Karen has to offer?”
m’not
I’m just saying that sexiness appears to be the only area in which Chloe may havethe edge, and that Karen might decide to give it the ol’ college try. even if only for her confidence with the next guy / exorcising old demons / giving Chloe the metaphorical finger.
(back to work)
the method is simple then : She must diminish the other woman, without diminishing her man.
Ah, this is the stuff of cat fights–and it also presumes that the man, a helpless victim of his own passions, is worth holding on to at all costs.
It also takes an extremely forgiving woman–far more forgiving than most of us can mamge to be. My cousin used to cheat on his wife; she always forgave him, but she’d also manage to leverage that guilt into getting whatever she wanted. He was sort of crypto-pussywhipped. It looked like he was getting away with something from the outside, yet he never again made a major decision for the family after she discovered his cheating. She held all the power.
INTJ: “NAMALT dude…”
IIRC, you’ve never had a gf. How do you know for sure? As Zach says: “Finding another woman attractive isn’t a big issue (every married/LTR guy ever does), but becoming obsessed with them is. Time to hit the road.”
pvw: “I agree, describing this guy as a beta seems an insult to betas throughout the world; it seems to me as though more betas have a sense of how to behave and are not totally clueless.”
Argh. Here we go again.
Because when most people say “beta” as in insult, they mean someone who has too much “beta traits” at the expense of alpha ones and is out of balance – a Roissy lesser-beta. Which is, to me, a delta or gamma.
It doesn’t mean all betas are horrible.
@Marellus and Just1Z
LMAO at your jokes
>> “Too defensive. If it weren’t the truth, bewilderment and confusion, not indignation and anger, should be the response.”
This exactly.
>> “BF is a classic beta bitch who goes googly-eyed in the presence of a belly-button ring.”
*shudders* Even beta-lovers find this kind of behaviour pathetic. Seriously, this guy sounds like an idiot.
>> “Sorry to generalize, but its Chloe today, tomorrow its the new girl across his office desk. ”
Exactly. No matter who you are, there are always going to be hotter people in the world. Even the 10s will eventually have to get old and make way for new 10s. You need a partner who’s going to be devoted and respectful to you despite all the beautiful people out there.
@J
I always knew that you were a Lady of Superior Discernment
(not checked what that actually means, but it sounds simply super)
INTJ (112),
This analysis makes a lot of sense, and it covers some SMP dynamics that I hadn’t even thought of!!!! ie. we all knew that the alpha females were having to “date down”, but I hadn’t even considered the effect that this has on female intrasexual competition. Well done!
@J
I have my moments …
Susan, I’m working off of the controlling assumption that Chloe is “the sexy sister” and frequently recognized as such by friends and family. Perhaps Chloe is also the out-going risk-taker, the adventurer, and so on, and people with this kind of wild spirit are often fun to be around, the life of the party.
I wonder if the BF’s interest in Chloe is typical of how many/most people react to her.
It occurs to me that Karen is approaching this problem from a scarcity mentality and a postion of reactiveness. A better stance might have been to state that (not ask whether or not) that the bf seemed more attraced to Chloe and then to offer to walk away, leaving the bf free to go after Chloe. When Karen asked, the bf was sure to deny his attraction to Chloe in order to avoid a confrontation and to hold on the sister he can get. He was sure to give Karen the answer he thinks she wants to hear, but that we all know she can never believe. Now she is stuck in the limbo of (wisely) not trusting him, but of not having a reason to break this relationship off. Nonetheless, a break up is inevitable. She’d have been better off being proactive in breaking it off. The outcome for her–losing him–stays the same, but she’d have had more of her dignity intact had she statd that playing second fiddle to Chloe was less than she deserves. He’d have then had to confront his feelings for Chloe and either make a move or give up. (And I’d bet that he already knows deep down that he has no chance with Chloe.) Either way, he have a better idea of his real SMV.
At this point, if I were Karen, I would call him and tell him very directly and dispassionately that I do not believe that he is not attracted to Chloe. I would then say, “No hard feelings, but this is not what I want for myself. I want to be with a guy that I can be number one with; apparently that’s not you. Good luck in the future. It’s been nice. Bye.” It’s really very cut and dried. Chloe or no Chloe, the bottom line is that in less then six months, he has lost attraction for Karen. Time for Karen to cut her losses and move on.
I have my moments …
Yes, indeed.
I wonder if the genders were switched, and it was the girlfriend getting a huge crush on the hotter/more sociosexually dominant brother, what would people say?
I have also sometimes wondered what identical twins do in terms of marriage. It would be very strange, I think, for all parties involved.
@Hope
“I wonder if the genders were switched, and it was the girlfriend getting a huge crush on the hotter/more sociosexually dominant brother, what would people say?”
We went over this a few days back.
Trading up is a-okay…if your female.
Another thought:
This situation reminds me a bit of Zach’s story about the shy/prudish girl he was dating. Based on what he described, the two of them obviously weren’t compatible, but some of the guys here thought that she sounded adorable. Karen needs to find a guy who appreciates what she has to offer. The same would be true if Chloe was dating a guy who expected her to be a delicate wilting flower. Nobody is going to appeal to all markets.
@J
“The outcome for her–losing him–stays the same, but she’d have had more of her dignity intact had she statd that playing second fiddle to ”
If people stopped worrying about their self-image and dignity and were willing to take some risks and occasionally look like fools most of them wouldn’t be single.
Too bad PC culture has made it so that making mistakes is somehow painful.
Hope: I wonder if the genders were switched, and it was the girlfriend getting a huge crush on the hotter/more sociosexually dominant brother, what would people say?
Lok: We went over this a few days back. Trading up is a-okay…if your female.
Me: Nah, all the guys would call her a hypergamous bitch, and all the women would say NAWALT.
Em: “Even beta-lovers find this kind of behaviour pathetic. Seriously, this guy sounds like an idiot.”
This reminds me a bit of Lester Burnham in American Beauty fawning over Mena Suvari. He’s only pathetic when unable to control himself, because that is weakness, once he is strong and owns his feelings, suddenly, he is attractive.
>> “We went over this a few days back. Trading up is a-okay…if your female.”
I think trading up sucks all around. Are you happy in your relationship? If not, then get out. If so, then make it work. No tradesies.
@Susan
“For all we know Karen is sexy as hell in private. She’s just not wearing her sexiness on her sleeve.”
No she isn’t. Her bf wants to fuck her sister. Unless they live in trailers this behaviour is taboo and wouldn’t be considered anything less than Jerry Springer quality programming.
“She refers to the passion they felt in their first three months.”
She refers to the passion she felt, he could have been faking it. or he simply feels new passion.
“Why is everyone assuming that Chloe’s narcissistic, materialistic, in your face sluttiness trumps what Karen has to offer?”
Thats kinda like asking why the team won the basketball game. A quick look at the scoreboard reveals that one team smashed the other.
Chloe 1 point
Karen 0 point
What Karen could do if she wants to salvage the relationship (which, Karen, you should not) is become more like Chloe in certain instances.
If people stopped worrying about their self-image and dignity and were willing to take some risks and occasionally look like fools most of them wouldn’t be single.
It’s not must an external thing; it’s about not having a victim mentality. Everyone has the right to go after a mate who will love and appreciate them as opposed to settling for someone who merely settled for them. This man lost attraction for her sometime between the three month mark when he met Chloe and now, six months ino the relationship. That’s not good or normal. She’s better off being single for a while. The opportunity cost of this relationship is too great.
Hope: “I wonder if the genders were switched, and it was the girlfriend getting a huge crush on the hotter/more sociosexually dominant brother, what would people say?”
I’d say the same thing if the man was writing in. Move on.
But what would the average *woman* say? Man up, and be a better boyfriend otherwise you’ll lose yours?
I guarantee you if I posted this in a generic forum with all walks of life, I’d get the latter, 10-to-1, if not more. Seen it a hundred times. I could post links to “relatonship advice” threads which always break down like this:
50 women saying “man up”
20 men saying “man up”
3 men saying “dump her” with a bitter/weak frame, and the 50 women attack them as being a (techincal term her) “douchecanoe”
1 man says “dump her” with a strong frame, and half the women giggle at his response.
1 woman says “dump her”, which is promptly ignored by everyone.
Someone:“She refers to the passion they felt in their first three months.”
Lok: She refers to the passion she felt, he could have been faking it. or he simply feels new passion.
J: So why should she stay with a man who feels little or nothing for her?
@J
I’m firmly in the dump his ass category.
However thats not really difficult to offer advice for,
Dial Number
He answers
inhale
We’re done.
Hang up.
Eat ice cream.
Not much more than that.
If she wants to salvage the relationship she should amp up her slutty factor slightly in public and drastically in private.
“And here we see another example of the hierarchy at work. The delta upsets the lesser sister and gets dumped. The beta sticks with the lesser sister and conceals his attraction to the hotter one. The alpha dumps the lesser sister, tags the hotter one, then dumps her too.
The sigma, of course, suggests a threesome. Maybe it flies, maybe not. But if one must go down, best go down in style.”
Adding a point to my sigma column.
“I think trading up sucks all around. Are you happy in your relationship? If not, then get out. If so, then make it work. No tradesies.”
I think it’s easier to trade up than to get out and then trade up because when you terminate your current relationship, you cause emotional blowback to yourself that could potentially miss the opportunity to trade up due to recovery from your self-inflicted relationship trauma.
This is kind of a catch-22, isn’t it?
@BB
Certainly Karen is quick to identify her as such, you’re no doubt right.
Well, Karen’s friends clearly don’t care much for her, and she has no female friends. She sounds like the kind of woman who thrives solely on male attention, and is probably very good at soliciting it. In this case, Karen reports that Chloe has not been out of line, so we may assume that Boyfriend finds her very attractive despite her putting no effort into making an impression on him.
Yes, it’s the double whammy of perking up around Chloe and acting disinterested around Karen that makes this so painful. I can’t imagine he really thinks he has a chance with Chloe, who has a bf, lives elsewhere, and is his gf’s sister. Why is he staying with Karen?
Because Karen is mis-reading his interest due to previous issues in their childhood?
or
she’s right ===> dump his arse
Well said! I do think there’s a way of being open and honest without losing dignity, even if it means ceding control to the other person. This is often what I think people fail to realize. There is no shame in having feelings and owning them, even if they are not reciprocated.
In Jane Austen novels, women turning down proposals always thank their suitor for the “honor of his proposal.” No doubt he will be disappointed, but no one calls that man a fool for trying (unless he is Mr. Collins).
Elton was also a fool.
This honestly seems likes some type of troll job because the letter just seems “off” for some reason, but in case it is not, this girl should get out ASAP. Nothing more to it than that.
Me: Yes, there have been occasional stories here about that. The man gets in deep as he chases down the 8 because he is just so enthralled. She in turn takes him for a serious rid because she knows he is a chump–she is not really interested in him. At the close of the drama, he realizes that he was lucky to get out alive, as he emerged seriously scathed.
Oh that was the second time my best friend husband cheated on her. The hot 18 year old was playing him for his little money while professing love and passion and she didn’t even slept with him! Once discovered he told my friend how “little she meant for him” and of course she kicked him out of the house, he went to start his life with hottie, but she dumped him with some stupid excuse and he spent a year trying to convince my friend to take him back, so far he has been faithful.
Time to drop the guy, dump him, goodbye, au revoir, naschledanou, arivederci, and fast.
What no Adios? I feel left out
So the method is simple then : She must diminish the other woman, without diminishing her man.
Yes because nothing makes you love your husband more and have a happy family life than constantly scheme and act to chase away his mistresses and there is nothing better than to keep a cheating man around regardless of his escapades. Hera most had been the happiest Goddess on Mount Olympus /sarcasm off.
I always knew that you were a Lady of Superior Discernment
I like the sound of that, Just1Z.
@Ana
… thine mighty phillilips that mocks the mandates of Pfizer’s masculine medicines …
”
@ tito,
Not All Women Are Like That.
The fact that you say this as if it’s a universal truth says a lot about you and the women you’re into!
I hate drama. My friends hate drama. We distance ourselves and/or cut off drama loving people because dealing with their pettiness is draining.
”
We’re talking about women in the age range of 18-35. We aren’t talking about women 50-60 years old. And even if a few weren’t dramatic in their youth, it still stands that the majority of women are like that, or were like that in their youth.
True! In both cases, the men had wildly inflated notions of their SMV!
hahaha
Yeah, the idea of admiring the woman who adopted this strategy is well beyond me. Sucker!
@Off the Cuff:
OffTheCuff December 18, 2012 at 1:20 pm
pvw: “I agree, describing this guy as a beta seems an insult to betas throughout the world; it seems to me as though more betas have a sense of how to behave and are not totally clueless.”
Argh. Here we go again.
Because when most people say “beta” as in insult, they mean someone who has too much “beta traits” at the expense of alpha ones and is out of balance – a Roissy lesser-beta. Which is, to me, a delta or gamma.
It doesn’t mean all betas are horrible.
Me: I agree. On the one hand, I can see him as a beta wannabee who is not quite there yet. I would put him into VD’s delta category. He appears to be a beta wannabee, ie., affable, friendly, outgoing, an interest in marriage and family, but he doesn’t have the social skills.
Or, if I were less charitable, I could see him as living on the dark side, narcissistic, etc., he can’t relate (or doesn’t care to relate) to his girlfriend’s feelings, so he goes on the defensive.
At this end, and over the question of women wanting “drama,” I would say the drama is on his side, in wanting to play dark game and induce dread.
Now if that is his strategy, he seems to be going about it the wrong way. He has a “nice, quiet” girlfriend who already sees him as dominant (he is a high earner, says he is family oriented) and she doesn’t seem to be playing games. Women like that don’t need dread to keep them in line; when they are recipients of dread, the response is as Karen has expressed it, “why is he so mean to me, why doesn’t he like me, why is he such an a-hole?”
But at the same time, if he is playing dark game and is interested in a Chloe type, he seems to be using “nice guy” game (fawning over her) where “a-hole game” might make the most sense.
This is where some beta/delta/gamma beta types put themselves into a hole. Nice guy game on Chloe types can get them taken for a ride and burnt out. Now some might get lucky and might not get that end result, but disillusionment seems to be the prevailing story of the manosphere.
Then once they become disillusioned, they go into the manosphere and begin howling about how there are no nice girls out there and all they can find are the carousel riders.
But the question remains, at least in my mind, how did you act when you had a chance with the nice girls you said you like and prefer so much…? (sarcasm here).
It is one thing to say you can’t find nice girls, but if you have a nice girl with whom you feel very compatible (I’m presuming here), and then you treat her shoddily (lose all desire for her, become obsessed with her sister then refuse to recognize her feelings in the midst of it) something very strange is going on….
You’re not ready for the Karen types. It is time to go chasing after the Chloe types. Enjoy the ride!
A-Ha
Han Solo,
Posting this here because I don’t know if you’re done with the Girl Game thread, but I posted my response to you explaining why I believe your analysis of the Skyler Place studies is wrong. I would appreciate a response.
Thanks in advance!
Once again proving that betas are the best partners, hands down.
Susan, in this scenario Karen would be better off with the delta or sigma…it would be more honest. The beta is hiding his true feelings, and that is not a good thing for Karen.
My cousin used to cheat on his wife; she always forgave him, but she’d also manage to leverage that guilt into getting whatever she wanted.
I knew one that used to get a HUGE expense they barely could afford everytime she found about a new hottie her husband was having. I think she even got a diamond ring. Now husband is too old to cheat so she doesn’t spent anymore, but you can practically count his mistresses by the amount of things they had accumulated over the years, crazy couple if you ask me.
@pvw
Exactly right. I might go so far as to suggest men use this as a filter. If they are with a woman who responds favorably to dread they are in STR territory, no question. This suits the STR-oriented guys very well, but a good guy who is running Instill Dread game in hopes of keeping her keen is in for a rude awakening.
@Ramble
I took VD to mean that the beta finds her attractive, of course, but is able to relegate that to the part of his brain that allows his relationship to thrive. Isn’t this what happily partnered men do all the time? I’m not fool enough to think that my husband doesn’t find other women attractive, but I know that he would never focus his attention on another woman like that. That is the beta way.
Pvw: no way this a dark gamer. Total n00b move, unless he has already banged Chloe.
Lokland: muahahahaha. Really? Dog.
Since Abbott is not here, I will say in his stead that of course Betas are the best partners. Unless you had the legendary 5 minutes of Alpha, or, god forbid, Sigma.
Why oh why can’t Betas just see past that 5 minutes?! Unfortunately, this part of Betas will not change!
Well, your husband is not lusting after your sister.
However, if the point that you were attempting to make is that we should be realistic about what we expect in relationships, then, I understand.
“However, if the point that you were attempting to make is that we should be realistic about what we expect in relationships, then, I understand.”
I took it as like a guy saying 6s are the “best.”
(Where best was not meant as most desirable)
@ OTC
No it’s not the finding another woman attractive (or even more attractive) that I disagree with. It’s the part about finding a slut more attractive that I disagree with.
This is some flaw in humascam counting. In terms of bedpost notches with Fabio, the score is Karen 87 (or so…a very interesting number to think about) to Chloe’s zero. In term of relationships with the stud-muffin, Karen is up one-nil, and Chloe can only tie. Karen got the guy, despite whatever’s happening, why start the count exactly after the old game ends?
My instinct reading the story was something like the Tiger Woods syndrome. A fly isn’t nobler than a spider, it just lacks fangs and venom. When low-rung people see their sociosexual status increase, they reach for more. In this case, he seems attracted to the ESFP-type, natural in a relationship, but lacks the social skill to behave discreetly, and can’t put his tingle in perspective
Karen doesn’t seem like a doomed Jane, she just didn’t pick a good one this round.
@OfftheCuff: Pvw: no way this a dark gamer. Total n00b move, unless he has already banged Chloe.
Me: I can buy the noob argument; but a noob who is on shaky ground (that is why he’s a noob!) and needs to think carefully about what he seems to be saying he wants and how he acts when he has it….shaking my head. Cognitive dissonance? Little head taking the place of the little head? The man has the potential to become a real train wreck…
@SayWhaat
I responded in great detail to your points and stand by my original calculations and assertions.
The one area of concern is the 9-point Likert-like scale answers to the question, “How attractive do you find this person?”
We would need to know exactly what the options were but assuming they were something like:
extremely unattractive; very unattractive; unattractive; just under average; average; just above average; attractive, very attractive; extremely attractive (that correspond to scores of 1-9)
then that would basically correspond to what we would mean on a 1-9 beauty scale. Usually we use 1-10 but no biggy. (or is it 0-10? not sure since I’ve never heard of a 0 in looks, so I think we more use 1-10 lol)
@Ian
“Karen doesn’t seem like a doomed Jane, she just didn’t pick a good one this round.”
Well put.
As easy it is, for us, to assume Chloe must be hotter – I think we are also atst taking a shot at Karen. I disagree with Lokland that she should attempt to “amp up her slutty factor” to win him. If she’s actually less sexually-unrestricted (IOW, “wild”) than her sister, she won’t win that battle. She’s better off in a different market.
@Cooper, @Ramble
What I meant was that a man in love does not lose his ability to find other women attractive, but he no longer feels the desire to pursue them. There is always someone more attractive, smarter, wealthier, more accomplished than the person we are with. Most people stop looking at some point.
@OTC
“Lokland: muahahahaha. Really? Dog.”
Cousin not sister.
Me and the cousin were down for it. Girlfriend was not.
Ohhh well. Least I tried.
@Susan
“What I meant was that a man in love does not lose his ability to find other women attractive, but he no longer feels the desire to pursue them. There is always someone more attractive, smarter, wealthier, more accomplished than the person we are with. Most people stop looking at some point.”
+1
@Ian
“why start the count exactly after the old game ends?”
Do you take the score from the last game and just keep adding?
I’ve never seen that happen.
Bf has checked out of the situation mentally and made 0 effort to prevent it from occurring.
Everything she has done prior to this counts for nothing. He has shown us that.
Therefore Chloe is +1
It sounds like the writer has jealously issues and has always felt inadequate when compared to her sister and may be seeing intent where their is none. I have been in the situation where I ended up with the sister of the girl I was dating, and the last thing either of us did was to advertise it. Now he may be less experienced in such things, but I would suspect from the writer’s own words, that she is the one with issues…
I don’t think it is possible to say what the situation is given the information presented thus far.
Keep in mind that only one person’s perspective has been given. And that is through her own filter of perceptions. She can present as fact things that are merely opinion, and we have no way of discerning the two.
I find it likely that she has some prior issues involving her sister. She defines herself as the ‘shy quiet’ one and her sister as ‘wild’ and ‘sexy.’ That is how she perceives the nature of her relation to her sister…how she thinks others see the two of them. If she has felt this way for some time then this will color her perspective of how anybody views the two sisters together. She will perceive that everyone is attracted to her wild and sexy sister over her plain boring self.
Regarding the family photographs, for instance: He may have made 1 or 2 comments about Chloe, but due to her ingrained perspective built up throughout her life, she perceives this to be a constant interest in only Chloe’s pictures. He may have made 1 or 2 comments about Karen but these are overlooked as insignificant, again due to Karen’s previous experiences. The information she has gets shaped to fit her current understanding of the world, and she perceives this situation to be different then what it actually was.
As a former trial attorney I can attest that this is not an uncommon event…people see what they expect to see, they remember what they think they should remember. People will testify under oath with absolutely no doubt to the truth of something they personally witnessed, and be absolutely wrong about it. Even when confronted with video evidence contradicting their memory, it is hard for some people to accept otherwise. Cognitive dissonance reduction is a term that exists for a reason.
Again, I find it likely that Karen harbors some preconceived ideas about how others view herself and her sister. Look at the ways she describes herself first and foremost, then how she describes her sister. This is how Karen views the world. And to some extent (and possibly a great extent) it is how she expects others to view things as well. Its quite possible that Karen sees any comment about Chloe as an expression of great interest, and sees any comment about Karen as meaningless or insignificant. If such is the case, then her boyfriends actions may indeed amount to little or no real interest in Chloe.
My point being…it is impossible to tell from these emails what is exactly the situation, as they appear to be written by someone with a prior conception that has been nurtured throughout her life. In any event, I would be reluctant to advise Karen to dump the guy. That is an extreme action, particularly given how much she has already invested, and the information given is not sufficient to warrant such a recommendation.
“He understands that you are wife and mother material, which is hardly something that men “settle” for – no sane man would even consider marrying a woman who did not meet that standard.”
Are you serious, with that? I think it’s a bit ignorant to suggest that no sane man would consider marrying a woman who can’t or doesn’t want to have children.
It’s too bad the author doesn’t understand men very much at all. His “mania” is likely that of a typical guy who is in a relationship with one girl, not necessarily committed in his own mind, and is attracted to her sister. Just because you think it’s a committed relationship, doesn’t mean he does. And if you look at alternative lifestyles, sometimes commitment can happen emotionally, but not necessarily sexually. He’s clearly in it for the physical, and may be emotionally tied to you, yes, but his libido clearly wants to roam. If the emotional connection is strong enough and worth keeping, you have to make the choice as to whether you will accept that or not, especially since his libido is roaming towards your sister. If you don’t accept it, you’re out a boyfriend, and should consider yourself lucky you caught it in time before you were cheated on. If you do accept it, prepare for a very interesting change to your worldview and lifestyle…it may be an interesting ride…
Regardless of what you choose, stop playing the victim and take control of your life and relationships. You knew your choices before asking us anonymous internet advice columnists, so start making them with confidence instead of second guessing yourself…
He is attracted to cloe. Its obvious, he is. And I think he knows u think he is, and he doesn’t care. or maybe he is testing the waters to see if that is the case. If u don’t do something about this, he will eventually cheat on u and/or make move on your sister. Plus,i don’t think he’s all fully to blame, watch your sister, maybe she did something to him that lead him on. What does she feel about this? but its obvious she will deny it. But watch her reactions, if she seems nervous or something she guilty or if she says that’s not true without nervousness she is telling the truth. And confront him too, tell him how he is hurting ur feeling because if it. me, personally, if my guy was showing signs of being interested in my sister like that none stop. I’d be too hurt to continue our relationship. If u continue your relationship with him like this, it will not only ruin the trust u have in him but the trust u have in your sister, you’ll start thinking paranoid and insecure and start questioning your sister’s trust. And u may become even jealous of her. U have to confront him. tell him if he wants to continue your relationship, he needs to stop. And if u still notice he is watching your sister or something, break it off. And get out there and find another guy. But if u do confront him and he says something like your questioning was redicuious, then tell him how would he feel is u were all day every day talking about his brother or his friend. And maybe he’ll understand your insecurity and hurt.
All and all, I don’t think I would be able to trust a guy if he was like that for my sister. A man who loves u and only u and would give anything for u only is worth it. Him even noticing at another woman means he is NOT ready to commit. Draw a line and figure out what he really wants and wat u want. MArriage involves trust and understanding, he doesn’t have neither considering your story. So, don’t marry him or take steps to the next level till u are sure. Or when u do marry himlike this, your life will be full of pain and a cheating husband. You wont be happy. nor will he.
Its truth, but sometimes the truth is better than committing the worst mistakes in life. Marrying him now like this is one of them.
plus, me personally, I HATE CHEATING GUYS, EXSPECTUALLY IF MY BF SHOWED INTEREST IN MY SISTER! ONE THING IS FOR A GUY TO SHWO INTEREST MY BEST FRIEND, THATS JUST F-CKED UP, BUT SHOWING INTEREST IN MY SISTER! OH THATS UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
Im not sure if I can forgive something like my bf sleeping with my sister. Me and my sis are close, so cheating on me with her will hurt me too much. I probably couldn’t forgive her too for awhile. Yes, we can get along, since u cant break it off with your family like I could with my bf. But I wouldnt be able to regain that sisterly trust I had in her ever again. Ever. its sad, but true.
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