I rarely post two letters from readers back to back, but I received an email today that is both time-sensitive and potentially instructive to readers.
I’ll begin with a confession. The real name of the writer is very unusual, and after reading her letter I had a hunch I wanted to confirm. Sure enough, she is indexed in Google images thanks to social media profiles. It is as I suspected. She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day. I don’t mean to objectify her, but I think she falls victim to a mentality that is common among beautiful women. It may sound counterintuitive, but beautiful women often have to make a special effort to land a good man, initiating intimacy, providing encouragement and offering reassurance along the way.
My advice would be the same in any case, but her looks are undoubtedly a factor in the dynamic between them.
Dear Susan,
Hi, your blog always gives such insightful advice on relationship issues, and I would love some right now because I’m in a difficult position with the first man I’ve liked in a long time. I’m 22, he’s 25.
I’ve been dating him for around two months now. I ended things with a guy this summer and was deeply depressed for a while, which is why I didn’t want to get emotionally attached too soon. There was a bit of imbalance – he took me out to nice dinners, walked me home, didn’t even make a move. When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.
I haven’t seen him in person for around 3 weeks. It’s sometimes been difficult matching our schedules (he’s working, I’m a student), and I have been travelling the past week. He said he wanted to take me to a lovely dinner the night I came back from an overseas trip. I was jetlagged when back and had a heavy lunch so I suggested a drink instead, and he accepted. I dozed off, got back to him a couple of hours later and said we could meet 45 mins later at which point it would be 10.45. He said it would be “a little too late” because he had to get up early for work, but we could meet the next day. I was pissed – that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me, he hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks, what guy says no to that because he’d get six hours rather than eight? I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.
So when I was out Thursday night I texted him (very late, early hours) asking if he was out too. For a weekday, I figured he might have been in bed. I got a reply the next morning. Friendly, as usual, but he hasn’t initiated anything since.
Worst part – Saturday night was a party hosted by a friend of his – an all night dinner and drinks. He asked me about a month ago and even convinced me to stay in town a far more days to attend. Come Saturday, I heard nothing. I’m just assuming he went to the party without me. I suppose most girls would text and go “what’s going on with that party??”. But I always assume a defensive position towards men – I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs. Plus, I did make an “initiative” Thursday night by texting first.
I was angry and in my irrational rage, I figured this was “finished from my side”, deleted him off facebook and deleted our text message history. That was yesterday, I assume he’s seen it by now, but he hasn’t said anything. I am twisting in agony trying to figure what the reason for his silence might have been… Whether someone said something about me. I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous, and I don’t think there is anything awful that may surface.
So as you can see I’m going out of my mind. I like the guy, and I know I acted irrationally when deleting him. But his behaviour was really schizo – he was all over me and seemed so genuinely interested, and then shut down on Saturday. I feel like it would be stupid to contact him now, it will seem as if deleting him was a provocation and now I’m “giving in”? I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand. Should I just wait it out?
Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him?
An ex boyfriend accused me of always causing unnecessary drama. If that seems the case, please let me know.
Anne
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you’re a regular reader, in which case you’ve seen my posts about avoiding players, and also my posts about the need for a woman to escalate emotionally when a man does get through her filter and she wants to be in a committed relationship with him.
I’m going to cut straight to the chase here.
You have been employing the Principle of Least Interest with such success that you convinced Stephen you are not interested in him. To be fair, you describe yourself as having been hurt fairly recently and feeling somewhat self-protective. It’s hard to escalate emotionally while deliberately delaying intimacy. Being introverted and not emotionally expressive makes this more challenging as well.
It sounds like Stephen was happy to go all out in pursuing you, putting in most of the effort. You already have a sense that you did not give him the reinforcement that would have helped to seal the deal early on, as you mention having regrets about remaining aloof, even after sex. However, I see some poor judgment calls here on your part within the last week or so that I don’t believe you fully recognize. At the risk of being very hard on you, I’m going to highlight them in hopes that you can learn from this experience, whether things work out with Stephen or not.
You did not act eager to reunite with him when you returned from Miami.
I understand that you were jet lagged, and I’m sure he did too. You might have rescheduled, explaining that you were dying to see him but wanted to be at your best. You could also have mentioned that you simply could not function without a couple of hours sleep, would he be amenable to a late drink?
Instead it sounds like you dismissed his plan because you were not particularly hungry (bad call) and then left him waiting and wondering until 10 p.m. That was not very considerate of his time, and it may have played a role in his declining at that point. Or he may have calculated that you would both have a much better time with less pressure by doing it the next day instead. Maybe he wanted to enjoy your company for an evening instead of racing home from the bar to have sex before an early alarm.
You felt rejected, so you punished him.
If a man is rejecting you, punishing him for doing so is not a good strategy for exciting his interest. Had you agreed to the next night, you would likely have had a passionate reunion. Instead, you told him you did not want to see him. His response that you should let him know indicates hurt feelings and hurt pride.
You sought to increase your control over him.
After turning him down, and without letting him know when you were available to see him, and how much you wanted to see him, you texted him while out late on a work night. This served to remind him that you are a carefree student who can be out and about getting attention from other men while he is required to get his sleep before another grueling day at the office. I imagine he woke in the morning, felt peeved, and his resentment grew throughout the day.
Note that you have still not texted to “let him know when you could see him.” You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.
You stubbornly waited for him to break.
You entered into a pissing match over who would blink first. It should have been you! Why do you always assume a defensive posture with men? Why are they required to do all the work? You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
Deleting him from facebook probably signalled to him that you have zero interest in him whatsoever, and want all reminders of your association gone.
In short, I don’t think his behavior has been schizo or the least bit unreasonable. I think you’ve been acting like a bit of a spoiled brat. (I say this with a maternal affection.) I don’t know whether this is salvageable, but if you really look at Stephen and see a potential father for your children, here is what I suggest you do:
Go crawling to him on your hands and knees.
Stephen,
I regret the way things have been between us for the last week. I accept responsibility for doing a very poor job of letting you know how much I wanted to see you upon my return. I have enjoyed our time together very much and I’d like to set things right. Are you free tomorrow night? Would you like to come over for a drink and we can talk about it?
Missing you,
Anne
If he is kind but says no, you’ll have time for soul searching. If he is a jerk and really was playing you in some way, he’ll be rude and unresponsive, in which case you just got rid of a bad guy. If he says yes, you’re back in the game. Respond graciously no matter what.
No more silent treatment, it’s time to make a little drama here (the good kind – as in, a dramatic gesture to surprise and delight him).
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This woman is nuts. I’m not surprised he ran off.
I like this guy. Sounds like he’s got it together.
Absolutely great advice, Susan. If you forced me to guess, I’d say that you read the situation perfectly.
“I really like this guy so I’ll act like I’m not into him to make him attracted! Oh why oh why doesn’t he like me now?
”
Beautiful
Sane
Pick 1
Game Basics 101: Maintain Frame A+
X. Ignore her beauty
The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t fucking. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women.
A common bit of wisdom – No matter how hot the woman is, some guy is done putting up with her shit.
Yeah, the guy seems to have his act together in terms of relationship mgt skills. He’s not being a dick; because of female intrasexual competition for a dwindling supply of “appropriate” men, even the not-conventionally-hot guys of means are going to be acting this way now, and the hot guys with $$ just won’t tolerate much at all.
The hair-trigger cutaway behavior can actually be more pronounced among LTR-minded guys because they are reacting to feminism and hook-up culture by becoming more judgmental and less and less easy-going—they don’t want to invest resources in lost causes, so they filter for lost causes very aggressively.
I will tell you who turns down sex from a hot woman late I night. I do. I seriously value my sleep. A woman that thinks she is so attractive that a guy will put banging her ahead of a good night sleep before a hard days work is showing some narcissistic and entitlement tendencies. That, plus trying to punish him for it the next day, is a sign of a woman whose always been able to get a guy to jump on command.
Personally, if you’d invited me over late at night when we both know sex is a sure sign but where busy the next few days and followed that up by unfriending me on facebook, I might assume you were a slut and were pretty much done using me. If I didn’t assume you were a slut I would be seriously confused and you would likely confirm the belief that the prettiest ones are always the most crazy.
You tried to play some crappy game on him and he’s having none of it. Consider this a life lesson to stop treating guys like they exist to fulfill your whims.
You are causing unnecessary drama.
Ya gotta admit Susan. Even though Rollo sometimes gets under your skin, sometimes he nails it. Like now. Hot girls have it so tough.
Pretty girls do have to try harder….to overcome themselves.
Another way to sum up her behavior is that she’s trying to get commitment by filtering the guy with her behavior into either chump or cad. He can either put up with her crap, in which case she’ll likely stop being attracted to him, or he can start to play her games better than her which will probably only be possible if he’s a cad.
If she’d just relax, and try and diminish her “I’m good looking and I know it” behavior, she’d probably (from the sounds of it) be happy to find out that she’s dealing with a guy who’s just enough “cad” and just enough “dad” to have a great relationship with. Maybe.
I think this is the inherent problem with “girl game”. A lot of women are attractive, and want a relationship, but if they learn girl game they’re gonna start doing what this woman did and apply the techniques consistently with their entitled attitude towards relationships and just make things worse.
Susan, great post.
However! I would say that just thinking he’d be good husband/father material isn’t enough. At 22 and a student, she will still feel the urge to keep looking. She seems to be playing the Principle of Least Interest game because she isn’t all that interested (not totally in love), but it’s likely that his backing away has made her want to chase him.
If she actually is in love with him, then she should do as you suggested. But if she’s not, then she’s just playing cat-and-mouse games, and should really go back out and find a guy that she’s truly excited about, as opposed to merely “like a lot.”
Also, we don’t know if this guy is dating other women or if they’ve had the exclusive talk. Not enough info there.
Position of least interest ruins another relationship.. I should feel something but I don’t anymore…. play games and this is what happens.
Good luck not repeating the same crap with the next guy I think you’ll need it.
You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
This is the main one right here. Any man who is attractive enough to regularly land 8+ women has enough experience to realize that they have no shortage of options. Since he has options too, though not as many, he’s going to be one foot out the door unless/until she signals that she has particular interest in him over all of the others he knows are pursuing her. The more desirable the guy, the easier it is for him to stop the pursuit.
Her actions weren’t intentional, for the most part, and this is more miscommunication than anything. The situation is salvageable, but only if she sends an unambiguous message of her interest in him. She may be introverted and afraid of putting herself at risk, but she’s unnecessarily put herself in a position where it is now required. The big problem was the Miami thing, as Susan correctly noted.
Men know that a woman who is genuinely interested will run herself ragged to see the man she wants. If she’s not, well, she’s probably not all that interested. That’s why it is so important to send very positive signals if you are already run ragged and you simply can’t manage it.
There’s also a big cognitive growth spurt between college and after college. The first three years after I graduated, I think I was gaining life wisdom at an exponential rate and losing drama at the same rate of decline. An introvert staying up until wee hours of the morning for fun? In college, totally normal. In the working world, ha!
So there’s that gap to consider between 22 and still in college vs. 25 and working.
@JamesV
You’re posturing
Initial impression just from her letter.
Damn girl you friggin nuts.
More later.
+1 to other guys
This guy has his LTR game nailed down perfectly.
@Anne
Good luck.
Advice for next time:
Everything you did this time, next time do the opposite.
Actually.
I’m going to disagree with Susan however, the situation isn’t likely salvageable and if it were… would you really be happy with a guy that let a woman treat him like that?
Beautiful Women Must
Try HarderNot Introduce Unnecessary DramaThanks for a great response, Susan.
The responses on this thread were so strong and opinionated that I had to read through my letter again to check whether the situation was portrayed correctly.
There might be some differences – such as the fact that we are not American, but I get the general message.
I asked a male friend and referenced this blog, he said the advice given was “too general” and not specific for my situation. He advised me to contact this guy in the morning, it’s 11.15pm in London and he might be in bed.
I am worried that giving him a response now will “reward” the fact that he pulled away. Most of all (even if he’s lost interest), I want to know what caused him to pull away on Saturday. We had specific plans, and the “craziness” you observe on my part, happened after that.
I suppose I have little to lose now, other than pride.
I am always reading advice saying that a man will “work to remain in your life if he wants to be”. I feel like I am being pulled from side to side in terms of relationship advice.
I was dating a guy who called me every day, invited me on long weekends, introduced me to friends and wanted to meet my family, and in the end just wanted to sleep with me while he was casually dating a woman in NY. If that is a possible scenario, what hope do I have with a man who quits on me on a Saturday night, not even giving an ridiculous excuse?
Could you please post links about women escalating emotionally? I don’t know where to find those articles and I need them. thanks!
@Anne
The answer is simple, and yet, quite difficult : How do you get him to chase you ?
What does he do ?
What is he passionate about ?
Nuts? How so?
@Underdog
Me too. He’s prepared to Next a 9 for rude behavior. Well done.
Anne, I can’t help but notice that you’ve used phases like “I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand.” and “reward [his behavior].” Reading as dispassionately as I can, it really seems as if you’re attempting to control his actions.
And sometimes, all it takes is the perception to make a guy reconsider his options. Let me suggest that it’s not about gaining the upper hand or about rewarding good behavior like you would a child (or a dog, for that matter). You may very well be surprised if you surrendered the upper hand to him. He may realize that you are golden after all. You may get exactly what you want.
I can’t guarantee that, of course, because you are both strangers to me. But I’ve seen it happen.
Why Rollo, I think that may be the first comment you’ve ever left here that did not include a link.
I am rooting for Stephen. G’luck mate, you are going to need it either way.
Anne, was that previous guy working? Because if not, there’s your answer. A working dude just does not have the time and energy to put that much effort into anything not the job. Shit’s gotta get done, yo.
“A man who quits on [you]?” Per your letter, you signaled first that you quit on him. Like Susan said, he saw your response and decided to stop bothering. Why would he give an excuse when you signaled “finished” first?
@Irish Farmer
What she needs to do is abandon all sense of pride and/or entitlement. The thing is, I don’t find it useful to blame beautiful women for exhibiting “I’m good looking and I know it” behavior. They are good looking, of course they know it! They feel entitled because it’s rare that they don’t elicit interest from men. They’ve actually reached a logical and correct conclusion.
The real problem is her strategy – she has to let her guard down, something that is very difficult for beautiful women to do. She also needs to make herself vulnerable, something that feels scary after a bad relationship ending this summer.
I think it’s hard for men to believe that hot women have feelings too – they are not invincible, and they attract a lot of cads. They must filter so aggressively that they can become very cynical about men. One very pretty woman I know is very good at filtering out cads, but she says she wishes just one guy would make it through the filter!
Anne describes this guy as short and not handsome. I’m sure the only reason he had any confidence was his wealthy background (which probably feels a bit crappy) and the delight she took in his personality when they met. Of course men want the hottest woman they can get, but they also want to trust that the attraction is real and building toward love.
Anne fell for an alpha. Who has choices. Like more 9s. Who doesn’t need Anne. End of story.
@Anne
You have every reason to reward his pulling away. You want him and he is now removed from your life. I maintain that the bad behavior was initiated by you. His last instruction to you was to let him know when you want to see him. Did you ever send that text? If not, I think he is justified in assuming Saturday was off.
Look, I’m talking to you like I would talk to my own daughter. I think you acted bratty, and now you need to make nice. He was dominant and collected and refused to put up with your shit. That’s excellent, you should be glad he stood up to you! Now go get him, making it clear you are invested and will treat him in a way that reflects that.
I’ll be honest – that is the He’s Just Not That Into You school of advice, and I’m not a fan. Yes, a cad will remain in your life if he wants to be because he is impervious to fear, rejection, or feelings of attachment. A normal man, a good man with the emotional range you want, will not persevere in the face of constant rejection or lack of interest. You don’t think he noticed that you never offered him coffee or breakfast? A woman trying to lock that down would have been babying him with feminine moves. You’re hot shit, but if you want him, you’re going to have to take a one down position. If you cannot do that and humble yourself, it’s not going to work.
This is the Pretty Girl dilemma. You attract Dark Triad males (narcissistic, manipulative, devoid of empathy) because you represent a great conquest and they have nothing to lose. You might as well be dating the Terminator. Unfortunately, these men can mimic desirable personality traits for a short time, and women are often taken in. I’ve heard a lot of these stories, and my guess is that when you look back, there were some signs that he was low on empathy. There always are.
@J
Start here:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/06/08/relationshipstrategies/in-this-battle-of-the-sexes-women-need-to-blink-first/
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/09/relationshipstrategies/25-politically-incorrect-but-effective-ways-to-make-him-your-boyfriend/
I see him as a Vox beta. After all, he appears to be a man of character. He took her out and walked her home without demanding that she suck his dick.
“I feel like I am being pulled from side to side in terms of relationship advice”
You will be pulled from side to side in terms of advice in all spheres of life…who to vote for, what stocks to buy or not buy, what career to follow, etc etc. You have to listen to the advice *and the rationale for the advice* and figure out for yourself what actually makes sense.
The hamster is strong in this one…
I hope she can salvage the relationship but from what I’m reading, sadly the guy has done what I would do and walk away from the drama (implied or not) and cut ties as soon as Anne did the childish act of deleting him on facebook.
She needs to level a bit more with why she is interested in him as well… Money? Social standing? Personality? Well she needs to understand that to keep money and social standing he needs to work, and probably damn hard… so yes at this early stage she will take second position.
Also, perhaps Anne should follow a little bit of Athol’s Captain and First Officer advice.
Let your guard down for the guy that has got through the filter… work a little harder to attract him. Give him a BJ he won’t forget next time you’re with him.
@ Nate Winchester
The previous guy was working too. He was co-founder of his brothers’ company (30% owner) and finishing his MBA at the same time. Either way, a 60 hour workweek. All the time he wasn’t working, we spent together. I don’t know where he found the energy to pretend to like me while doing all this – some men get energy that way I suppose?
@ Marellus
He was a manager in a company, but quit a while ago. I’m assuming he’s always doing some work for the family company. Otherwise he’s preparing for gmat tests. He doesn’t need to work, financially speaking.
We’re pretty similar in interests and taste. I’m a very good cook, so I will cook for him sometime – IF we get back in the sweet spot.
I am googling Vox beta to see what that’s about.
I am always reading advice saying that a man will “work to remain in your life if he wants to be.
No, that’s female projection. Women will just about kill themselves to be in a man’s life if they want. High quality men want to know you are loyal before they bother. Don’t make the mistake of projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto him. Men and women are different. Even ALPHA and BETA men think and act differently
I am worried that giving him a response now will “reward” the fact that he pulled away. Most of all (even if he’s lost interest), I want to know what caused him to pull away on Saturday. We had specific plans, and the “craziness” you observe on my part, happened after that.
He’s not a woman. Stop trying to treat him the way you need to be treated. He pulled away on Saturday because of this: “I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.”
He sounds sufficiently in control of himself that, unlike most men, he’s not going to respond to every tiny hint that you might deign to dangle before him. Stop playing games, stop worrying so much about protecting yourself, and indicate your interest in a reasonably straightforward manner. Call him up, tell him you’re really sorry you’ve been such a flake, and see what happens. Ironically, the more coy you attempt to play it, the more likely it is that you’ll get played.
I see him as a Vox beta. After all, he appears to be a man of character. He took her out and walked her home without demanding that she suck his dick.
He could just be a decent Alpha. Or a patient one. They do exist. I think he just senses flakiness and is steering clear until she gets her act together one way or the other. I’ve done that. It’s a positive sign that he’s responding to her and being friendly. If he’d Nexted her, she’d get silence.
I am googling Vox beta to see what that’s about.
Try this. He does sound like a high Beta from the description. Family wealth gives him Alpha trappings without the predatory drive.
@Anne
Ask his opinion on something. Tell him you’ll send him a rose for his trouble. Should he respond, and no matter how he responds, send him a rose. I mean it. If he responds to this, apologise and say you’ll send him some more. If he responds again, tell him that the matter should be discussed further over coffee.
You attract Dark Triad males (narcissistic, manipulative, devoid of empathy) because you represent a great conquest and they have nothing to lose. You might as well be dating the Terminator.
(laughs) But Susan, you say that like it’s a bad thing!
Anne, here you go: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html
Oh, see, MBA isn’t even a real degree. lol
At the very least, Guy 2 sounds like he proved his dad-bonafides to you with the turn down offer. It means he has a good head on his shoulders and is going to be a good manager of family finances. I mean no offense to you, but there are things more important than sex (especially long term unless you’re producing offspring). If you’re that worried he’s playing you, find some of his family and get the low down.
@ Anne
I have been in a similar situation as you are now. Susan is speaking the truth.
If you want to salvage this, you will need to swallow your pride and give him some signals that you are truly interested in him.
It is not uncommon for men to be unsure about whether or not women are interested in them/likes them. That uncertainty is often multiplied tenfold if a woman is very attractive.
I tend to be very aloof around men as well, and it has landed me in situations like yours on more than one occasion. Sometimes, I was willing to stick my neck out and tell the men honestly how I felt about them. Other times, I maintained my aloof demeanor, and they eventually FIDOed.
How much do you want to be with this guy? If you honestly want to date him, you will need to give him more than crumbs of affection to keep his interest.
@ Susan
“What she needs to do is abandon all sense of pride and/or entitlement. The thing is, I don’t find it useful to blame beautiful women for exhibiting “I’m good looking and I know it” behavior. They are good looking, of course they know it! They feel entitled because it’s rare that they don’t elicit interest from men. They’ve actually reached a logical and correct conclusion.
The real problem is her strategy – she has to let her guard down, something that is very difficult for beautiful women to do. She also needs to make herself vulnerable, something that feels scary after a bad relationship ending this summer. ”
Of course it’s not useful, that’s why I added all of that other rabble to my comment.
Susan, how can I see who’s ‘liked’ this on fb? I don’t want it floating about on social media.
I have no idea! Only one person has liked it so far, that’s the good news. But I have no access to information on which reader clicked that button. You should be OK – the readership here is 80-90% American.
Oh please Lord God, answer my humble Christmas prayer,…
Anne, I don’t suppose this guy’s name would be Nick Krauser?
Fixed.
Nick Krauser could never pull Anne. She’s an educated Londoner dating independently wealthy men. His accent is, well, um, not posh, and he’s unlikely to ever be within 100 yards of her. Just saying. The Venn Diagram of Krauser and Anne’s social circles do not touch.
Why would a woman want the conquest of a Dark Triad male? That’s like saying we want the great conquest of alcoholism or heroin addiction. Fun at the beginning perhaps, but soul and life destroying.
Oh my…
just checked in today because I saw there was a new post and only 40 comments. I have a busy day today, so I gotta make this quick, and respond to this.
You are misapplying this advice. The problem is that girls can get all worked up over a guy and bend over backwards to see him, when he doesn’t show the SLIGHTEST interest. Did you see He’s Just Not That Into You? I’ll admit this is one of my favorite movies. Here’s what the women screw up in that movie:
-Gigi goes to another part of the city to “return a pen” to a guy who won’t return a phone call
-Scarlett (can’t remember character name) keeps on sleeping with a man who is married to another woman
-Gigi hosts an ENTIRE PARTY for Justin Long’s character, when he is not showing any equivalent interest in Gigi.
-Bradley Cooper’s wife is getting cheated on…and she is working her ASS off trying to save the marriage. What the hell is the goddam point?
The problem is that a girl finds a guy, wants him, and then goes crazy trying to win him over! The flip-side is the guy doing all the work, but that doesn’t make sense EITHER. What Justin Long says in that movie is that he will make SOME effort to meet up with you. Not that he is going to slay a Dragon, solve WWII, build you a desk, and then call you 6 times just to get you to text him.
Both sides have to show some interest, and like Susan said, you need to show some interest or he’s going to just drive on.
Tonight, my GF actually reallly wants to skype me. I can’t because I had to go get gas, then pick up some pottery stuff we painted, check this website for some “recreation,” get my ass exercising for 45 minutes, shower after exercise, cook dinner, eat dinner, wash dishes, cook lunch for tomorrow, check pantry to see if I have the food necessary to make dinner tomorrow, oh fuck I don’t so I need to make a shopping list too, by the way my 401k information came into today so I need to check that, I really would like to look into buying a condo a little more, fuck the sweet table at work is tomorrow and I want to bake some muffins, I want to buy some Disney on Ice tickets for Mom/Dad/Niece to go together which also means I have to text Sister to see when Niece is actually in town, and subtly hint to Mom and Dad that they should keep a weekend free without ruining their Christmas Present, some laundry, blah blah blah my life is boring.
And I don’t even even really have time to skype my girlfriend, who I REALLY care about. I don’t feel bad about it, because I just spent all weekend with her, so she’s being a bit demanding, IMHO.
What in the world makes you think I am going to make massive amounts of effort to see a girl who I think probably isn’t even interested in me? This is my BORING day.
Even if I had more free time, which I spent looking at HUS, I could play Xbox. Or watch a movie. Or look at porn. Or read the new Tom Wolfe.
I don’t mean to rag on you or anything, but this whole “guy does everything” idea is not a good one to have. It doesn’t always work out that way in real life.
Which leads me to this…
Yeah, certain kinds of people have virtually boundless energy, at least for short time spurts. I once hung out drinking with my friends for 6-7 hours, slept for 3 hours, drove another 3 hours, and ran a half marathon.
I am not Superman but for that period of time it was hard to slow me down.
Anne,
What behavior of his do you see as wrong and that you are trying to avoid rewarding?
The classic self-made vicious circle ice queens find themselves trapped in, and great comments adressed to Anne:
“You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.”
“Consider this a life lesson to stop treating guys like they exist to fulfill your whims.”
“How much do you want to be with this guy? If you honestly want to date him, you will need to give him more than crumbs of affection to keep his interest.”
Nothing more to add, really.
“Ironically, the more coy you attempt to play it, the more likely it is that you’ll get played.”
Voilà. +1
@Marelus
“Tell him you’ll send him a rose for his trouble. Should he respond, and no matter how he responds, send him a rose. I mean it. If he responds to this, apologise and say you’ll send him some more.”
Looks like you’ve mistaken her for a tranny…
Man, that chick is too much WORK! If I have to wonder if a gal likes me, then I assume she doesn’t and look elsewhere. If Anne’s man has any sense, then he’ll do likewise.
That reminds me of a saying an old, female friend told me: I graduated from high school for one reason: to LOSE the games! How true it is. Anne would not qualify for my time or interest, given her behavior; given her behavior, Steve would be right in assuming she’s not interested, and would look elsewhere to find someone who IS…
Anne:
He has been wondering about you for some time. Your lack of affection indicates low emotional investment.
I had such a relationship. She wasn’t as pretty as Susan says you are, but she was cuddly and had nice skin. It was on-again, off-again for longer than I should have let it be.
Search your feelings. You didn’t really want him. Now you think you do. Is it merely the fact that he seems indifferent now?
I think all the advice to Anne is great.
I am realizing through reading Anne’s discussion of the situation, the significance of the halo effect, that women who are seen to be very beautiful can get away with flaky behavior, because men are tripping over themselves to please them.
Perhaps Anne has been able to do this before with other men who didn’t call her out on it. So Mr. Highly Functioning Beta is forcing her to grow up and realize the world doesn’t revolve around her.
This struck me: “When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.”
Me: This isn’t about being introverted. This is about being a gracious host, which makes me wonder, what the hell is happening out there?
I guess I’m just too old fashioned for words with respect to my upbringing. I remember as a little girl, being instructed and shown by my mom, the value in being gracious in offering hospitality.
If anyone came to our house, the expectation was that they would be offered some refreshment, ie., juice and perhaps a snack. I was to help her in gathering the glasses, the drinks, the trays, etc. And if it was a matter of having time to plan beforehand, I was to do so by making sure I had something on hand to offer.
When I was 22 and in college but living in a dormitory, I remember an instance of some family connections visiting me; we were going on our way to visit some of our mutual relatives. I remember talking to my mom and her asking me whether I remembered my duties as a hostess.
“I didn’t forget, I said, yes mummy, I got a few bottles of juice and some cookies/crackers.” If I didn’t act appropriately, it would have been beyond embarrassing to her, and she would have called me on it.
Heck, she would probably call me out on any rude behavior even today!
Forget about a man visiting with you and not offering him some refreshment, but after sharing sexual intimacies, it just never occurred to you???
Wow, just wow…
@JamesV
“What behavior of his do you see as wrong and that you are trying to avoid rewarding?”
Mainly blowing me off Saturday. He told me to “let him know” on Tuesday, and I did in fact contact him Thursday (although late). I can understand that he feels he has given more than me, but I thought not taking me to the party was crossing the line. He invited me to this party a month ago and has been talking about how I MUST come.
The main reason I wrote to Susan was that I thought something serious must have happened in the meantime, and I was trying to figure out what. It was so sudden.
@Dinkney Pawson
I was hugely attracted from the first time I met him. I had butterflies waiting for the first text and the first dinner we had together was amazing – I have never laughed so much during one dinner. My only reservation has been that I’ve still struggled with the idea of the last guy I dated and whether the fact that he was on my mind was a problem. But I’ve realized that’s just anger. And when I didn’t see Stephen for some time, I realized how much I missed him. Of course you realize these things more when things get rough. But I wanted him available too. I’m just so used to doing the withholding dance I don’t know any other way.
@ Anne
Don’t be too hard on yourself. Introvertedness is difficult (I would know haha). But you need to open up a bit, and most importantly, not expect him to show you attention if you’re unable to do the same in return.
@ Susan
All I can say is, wow. You were brutally honest with Anne. Didn’t know you had it in you.
@ Ramjet
I believe it’s beautiful, intelligent, sane, pick two. So yes, it’s possible to get a beautiful and sane girl as long as she has rocks for brains.
Poor Zach…
What the hell is going on? Two articles in a row, and both times we have a decent consensus between men and women? Madness!
@ Bastiat Blogger
The way I see it, it doesn’t even have to do with whether there is female intrasexual competition or not. I don’t care if I have better options or not. It’s a matter of having basic self-respect. Any guy who has a backbone (though admittedly many lesser deltas don’t) is going to react the way he did.
@INTJ: I believe it’s beautiful, intelligent, sane, pick two. So yes, it’s possible to get a beautiful and sane girl as long as she has rocks for brains.
Me: Yes, which begs the question, will men go for intelligent and sane even though the woman is merely attractive, cute, pretty (ie., 6-8), or presentable (ie., a 5)….But the temptation for many men seems to make the choice in favor of beautiful and crazy. It is the halo effect. I wonder, if Anne were not as beautiful, ie., a 6-7, what might her behavior have been like? I would guess, far more accommodating (sane) in the hope of locking down a desirable higher beta. Unless there is a greater tendency to female narcissism and flakiness, a 6-7 would realize that she can’t afford to act as though men are always going to put up with garbage….
@ pvw
Yeah the tendency of men does seem to be to forgo sanity. For me, that’s the most important factor. I can balance off attractiveness and intelligence (though my minimum threshold for intelligence is probably higher, percentile-wise, than my minimum threshold for attractiveness).
@Anne:
“I’m just so used to doing the withholding dance I don’t know any other way.”
You’re just 22. Maybe you might want to consider learning other ways fast…
You don’t want to end up being a trophy wife, do you? Or find yourself alone once your looks fade…
@Anne
Important questions:
On the evening you returned, what time were you supposed to meet for dinner?
Then when you said you wanted a drink instead, what time was arranged or was it left open? This appears to have been at 8 pm and then you went to sleep for 2 hours.
Can you fill in some of the timeline and details before I give my advice?
Not seeing him at an earlier time the night you came back plus telling him that night you were busy for the next few days are what got this whole thing rolling so understanding what must have been going through his head that night is key to everything.
@pvw:
“which begs the question, will men go for intelligent and sane even though the woman is merely attractive, cute, pretty (ie., 6-8)”
Yes, at least sane men.
@Anne
I guess my point is that it seems like he was probably expecting to meet for the drink soon after 8 (maybe around 8:45 since 45 min was the time lag you suggested when you texted him at 10) and not at 10:45. So if he was just left waiting for 2 hours then I can see why he might have thought you were uninterested. He may have really needed to get sleep and thought it would be better to just see you the next day when you could both spend more time and not be rushed.
@INTJ: Yeah the tendency of men does seem to be to forgo sanity. For me, that’s the most important factor.
Me: I can understand that. It seems to me a sane and balanced man is going to want sanity in his life.
It is about knowing the value in having a girlfriend/wife who is in the words of my French-speaking mother-in-law, “une jeune fille tres bien elevee,” (I’m missing some accents here) a young woman raised with “good home training,” manners, etc.
Thank God for my old school Caribbean immigrant mom!
Damien Vulaume December 18, 2012 at 11:49 pm
@pvw:
“which begs the question, will men go for intelligent and sane even though the woman is merely attractive, cute, pretty (ie., 6-8)”
Yes, at least sane men.
Me: Which might imply then that the insane ones go for the insanity of the hot craziness! This was probably at the heart of Karen’s dilemma in the last post; she was merely presentable/cute/pretty and sane, no competition (in the eyes of her boyfriend) for the hot insanity of her sister…
Anne,
You messed up and you keep making excuses as to why you didnt and why he should continue chasing. Im a 25yo american male with a plenty of options, just like it sounds for your guy, and the simple fact is that all this crap isnt worth it. In my view this guy has been more than accomodating towards you and showed real interest while you have continually rebuffed him.
From the talk of susan you sound really good looking, but this guy prob can get other good looking women so you need to do more. Maybe he ends up with an 8, rather than a 9 like yourself, but one who is very caring, sweet and doesnt play these games. The latter is definitely worth it when looking for a relationship.
Swallow your pride, take a chance and follow susans advice here.
Susan @ 49
Thanks for clearing that up. So a London model type 9 is working through wealthy young Brits to find the right match. And gets pissed when one does not supplicate. Now I have it. Thought you were trying to help a stressed out American like the last poor gal with the threat of a slut sister. You need a vacation.
@pvw:
“which might imply then that the insane ones go for the insanity of the hot craziness! This was probably at the heart of Karen’s dilemma in the last post”
Insane or hoplessly imature, or suckers for beauty. Yes, that was probably at the heart of Karen’s dilemma. It would have been interesting to see pictures of both sisters. I’m making an assumption here but seeing the picture of the supposedly hot sister would have had me ROFL even more at that pathetic boyfriend. Just my instinct.
Anne,
I always say that with a women (and presumably men as well), you don’t truly know the strength of their character until you observe how they deal with adversity. I’ve had a couple girlfriends I thought had very strong personae fall to pieces when life threw them a curveball. This situation here and now is giving him a nice illustration of your character. By your own admission, he has invested far more effort into the relationship than you have. The particular details of what precipitated this minor crisis is totally irrelevant: it’s time for you to reciprocate his investment, or quit.
Poop or get off the loo.
‘are totally irrelevant’, geesh…
@DV
Looks like Anne’s mistral will respond to such mischief …
If a girl is going to act this way in her relationships, then she’s going to end up having to be extremely hypogamous, even if she is beautiful. An attractive, confident man simply is not going to put up with this kind of behaviour. The remaining options are either: a) flings with cads who will P&D you b) a LTR with a snivelling gamma who will worship the ground you walk on because of your beauty, no matter how you treat him.
…I can’t imagine either of these options being particularly appealing, so I’d say an attitude adjustment is probably in order.
@Marelus
I’m more worried about the real mistral than hers.
Sorry if that remark offended you, but you seem to misread her behavior if you seriously think that she’d send roses to the guy….
First off….the patronising of Anne’s good looks is WAY TOO MUCH (So much that it sounds condescending)!…..I wonder if she finds it annoying when people constantly revert back to her good looks in any topic of discussion, especially of this kind.
Besides the patronising, I think Susan’s advice is perfect.
Re. DamienV at 72: your suggestion to add onto insane, “hoplessly immature, or suckers for beauty” (I would add, as per the halo effect), I can agree with that.
And that is probably going on here, as I mentioned the “halo effect,” but the guy has pulled a fast one, which she never saw coming which is why she is in knots:
“Still, I have often ended up dating guys who are not exactly George Clooney, and have had comments that I could do “a lot better”. Stephen is extroverted, funny, well educated and from a very wealthy background, but he’s not “handsome” and a bit on the shorter side (I’m 5”9). I don’t know if it’s relevant, but I’ve had the feeling all along that he feels very lucky to be with me.”
Re Jason at 70: “From the talk of susan you sound really good looking, but this guy prob can get other good looking women so you need to do more. Maybe he ends up with an 8, rather than a 9 like yourself, but one who is very caring, sweet and doesnt play these games. The latter is definitely worth it when looking for a relationship.”
Me: He might even be able to go lower and still be “safe,” in that she has admitted as per the quote she provided that he is not handsome, while (according to Susan) she is in the 9 category. He could be anywhere, but I would guess 5-8, as she said he is below her in looks.
And this has been typical for her: with respect to the looks of the men she dates, she can do “a lot better”. Less handsome men with money are so grateful to get her attention (ie., they want a trophy?) that they will do anything for it. As with many wealthy men who are not “handsome,” their money makes them more appealing, so they can pull the 8+ women. So that is what is at stake.
This makes for an interesting affirmation of game: very attractive women need serious game to get them in line. She took him for granted while he seemed very accomodating; it was what she expected, that the lowly serf (as all the other serfs before) would worship at her feet and be grateful for the bones she tossed his way. But now that the tables are turned and he doesn’t reward her rude behavior, she believes he is “playing games.”
Perhaps there needs to be more assortive mating here…Highly Functioning Beta needs a woman like him, perhaps a 5-8 who can appreciate him.
Let Gisele look for her Tom Brady.
Re Melissa at 78: I wonder if she finds it annoying when people constantly revert back to her good looks in any topic of discussion, especially of this kind.
Me: But she made it a central part of her analysis in explaining the pattern of interactions she has had with the man she is dating.
@Damian Velum
She must do the entire rose-thingy in a tongue-in-cheek manner. That way she doesn’t loose face, and the mistral is at once blindsided, piqued, and motivated to reframe.
Anyone else notice that Anne’s not heeding any of the excellent counsel here, but rather merely defending herself and her bad choices?
Another case of a vapid female seeking affirmation, not advice…
@Marcellus
Miscommunication probably. So the mistral here is the guy she’s treating like classic prima donnas do? I thought you meant to use the mistral (the wind in Provence) as a metaphor for her wrath.
Even tongue in cheek, I doubt she’ll do it.
Anne,
Look at it from his perspective. Given the way you treated him his reaction actually is very reasonable.
After not seeing him for 3 weeks he was so important to you that you went to sleep. OK, so maybe he really is important to you and accidents happen. No problem. You invite him out later that night but it is already too late and he is ready for bed. This should be no problem because adults don’t act like college students. Maybe he could have gone but it is perfectly reasonable for an adult to not start his evening at 10:30pm. However, as you said, you decided to pretend you were busy for a while.
So, you expected him to have no problem with you breaking plans to sleep yet you weren’t willing to allow him the option of not even making plans because he was getting sleep. You expected a sacrifice from him that you weren’t willing to make. And it is all downhill from here.
From his perspective the girl he was interested in broke plans with him, tried to change them to fit her convince (at an inconvenient time for him btw), blew him off with an indefinite time frame of when she’d be available again, tried once more to squeeze him in at her convenience (when she should no from prior experience his is unlikely to be available).
Based on the behavior he saw you might want to consider that his decision not to take you to the party was reasonable. You gave him many signs that he was only important enough for you to squeeze into your life when you had time. It makes perfect sense that he would reciprocate and back off of his interest in you to the same level.
Every single problem in this relationship since your trip is because of your unreasonable expectations, pique and caprices.
@LongLostFriend
“Anyone else notice that Anne’s not heeding any of the excellent counsel here, but rather merely defending herself and her bad choices?”
Absolutely. I found her subsquent comments very revealing of her frame of mind. The prima donna type.
But it’s not so much seeking affirmation. My take is that she genuinely doesn’t see where she did go wrong. She is already (and at just 22, at that) way too used to expect to treat even a guy she likes and is with as if he’s at her disposal.
That Stephen sounds like a perfect gentlemen. They already have an intimate relationship together (but obviously not a love one) and yet she can’t help but keep pulling those those tricks.
@DV
What I find amazing is how the advice is given. And it’s given with the tact and circumspection of a Sandor Clegane … when what’s called for, is the mannerisms of a Tyrion Lannister.
Melissa: “The remaining options are either: a) flings with cads who will P&D you b) a LTR with a snivelling gamma who will worship the ground you walk on because of your beauty, no matter how you treat him.”
Probably the best summation so far. Except, being part of an alpha rotation is far more likely than a pump and dump. That, and even a decent normal delta will probably fold like a card table in her presence… a gamma is taking it too far.
She’s definitely locking herself out of the beta LTR market with her behavior. What’s amazing is this guy hasn’t bumped her to ladder two and accepted some booty calls. My take: he has other prospects, or, is one of the rare single-ladder types. If he’s the latter, go back and beg because he won’t be for long.
Nice
That’s exactly what awakens my inner player…
Now you have two choices:
- go back to him and you have lost lots of power. Guy might use it or not – depending how genuine is he
- wait for next attractive guy to come (might be year or never)
Do you trust guy?
@Marelus.
It’s hard to decipher what you mean through the fog of your references. I have no idea who those two characters could be. Some pop “culture” reference maybe?
I suppose you mean that Susan’s or everybody else’s advices to the girl were too blunt? If so, I believe that frank and direct explanations will be more helpfull to her than sugar coated, serpentine ones.
@ LongLostFriend
I am simply replying to the questions which were asked directly. I thought filling them in on the information they wanted would be useful.
I haven’t rejected any advice given (except maybe the “rose” thing…). In total, most of what people have said is some variation of the advice Susan gave – I emailed her when I read it for the first time and told her it was an eye-opener, especially this “carefree student” scenario.
I do find this thread to be very focused around looks. I cannot rate this guy from 1-10 – there is a reason that scale is used mostly for women. A guy’s “rate” says little about his overall attractiveness, but it can be significant for how he sees himself. Men are visual, and many falsely assume women are too. My note on his appearance was a small paragraph at the end of my email. If Susan assumed he was very good-looking, she might have given different advice. Or he might have been labeled an alpha – maybe he is anyway, I don’t know, I don’t have sufficient ‘knowledge’ about these personality types. Either way, it was natural to give SOME mention of his looks. I find him very attractive, and I am sure other women do too.
@ Melissa
I hate to tell you this, but I have a feeling the unconscious thought process working in the minds of many men right now is wayyyyyy worse than what’s being communicated.
Men-Folk, in particular the guys here, tend to really like women. That’s why we pedestalize them so much. It’s why the guys keep coming here again and again, we honestly love women.
You have to figure this is biologically programmed to a great extent
Anne is not getting that welcome here, which makes you wonder what else might be playing deep in the lizard-brain. It’s probably not pretty.
No worries, Anne, you’ll be fine. You’re 22. You have to do some work, just like allllllll the rest of have to do, but I’m fairly confident that you are trying to learn and will be able to put Susan’s good advice into practice.
Anne,
I think all this is stemming from you blowing him off when you got back from Miami. Read JamesV’s comment #84 – he wrote exactly what I was thinking while reading the post.
I actually think this guy sounds like a really good guy.
@Susan
If I can remember correctly, sounds like Anne need to do, in your words, some “Coopering.”
Some random thoughts re:
Hope at 15: So there’s that gap to consider between 22 and still in college vs. 25 and working.
Anne at 92: In total, most of what people have said is some variation of the advice Susan gave – I emailed her when I read it for the first time and told her it was an eye-opener, especially this “carefree student” scenario.
ADBG at 93: No worries, Anne, you’ll be fine. You’re 22. You have to do some work, just like allllllll the rest of have to do, but I’m fairly confident that you are trying to learn and will be able to put Susan’s good advice into practice.
Me: I know there have been occasional debates where I believe Susan have urged college aged women interested in long term relationships leading to marriage, to consider guys who are a bit older as the college market is impossible to navigate.
Some guys have bought the argument, others have not, because they have seen or experienced some of what has been described here. Not all young college girls who have not made the transition from school to work are mature enough to negotiate a grown up relationship with a man who is an adult in the working world.
This. I think it’s important to dispassionately view the SMP economics of this. Anne does not play hard to get. She is hard to get. From a male POV, it’s difficult to imagine a more fertile or alluring vessel to carry one’s offspring. Anne’s natural counterpart is the handsomest, smartest, wealthiest, kindest, top male in the tribe. It is her right, because of her own SMV, to reject all men who don’t measure up to that standard. She has no earthly incentive to be “easy to get.” Of course, men want the woman who is hard to get for every other guy and easy to get for himself. But Annes are not easy to get for anyone – they spend their lives deflecting unwanted attention, practicing rejection, and filtering through waves of cads in search of their rightful and natural partner.
In this SMP, the Annes are at a disadvantage. Their natural partners are often players, uninterested in commitment and low in MMV due to their own promiscuity. Anne is to be commended for choosing a man who displays LTR traits. The reality is that any man who holds onto Anne is going to have to be quite dominant – a hero in her eyes. Stephen is off to a good start, as he passed all her shit tests with flying colors. If Anne can find a way to stop withholding and “give in” – to be easy to get for Stephen alone, well then I think they have a shot.
@pvw
Good point! We should add a red flag – any man who says is ex (or heaven forbid, his exes) were crazy, psycho or insane should be summarily dismissed! I think a lot of these men get hooked on the dopamine rush of conflict and agitation followed by makeup sex. They learn to crave the unpredictability and find it genuinely arousing. Guys here have said the men put up with crazy behavior for the sex, but I would go further and say they seek women with crazy behavior for the sexual and emotional roller coaster. I’ve seen guys get sucked in by really unstable women, where the instability was part of the attraction.
@Senior Beta
???I don’t see how my comment at 49 relates to your response. First, Anne is not working her way through anything. She is 22, and recently ended a serious relationship, and she is dating Stephen with the express intention of possibly marrying him.
She has very high SMV and is surely on any short list of highly desirable and eligible women in London. Why on earth would she go for a broke PUA who accosts her with a webcam and a cocky funny routine at an intersection?
Why did you think that? She’s neither American, nor stressed out, poor or coping with her man’s having eyes for her sister. She’s not a victim, nor did I treat her as one. I urged her to take responsibility for her feelings and change her behavior.
Unless I’m missing something, your comment strikes me as oddly defensive. Are you white knighting for a PUA? Is that the career Anne should be seeking in a mate?
I feel compelled to say that I find the display of bitterness from some of the males downright embarrassing. Gee, I hope Anne can deal with the shock of your not wishing you could date her!
Beautiful women have their own issues in the SMP – the top women and the lower males are the big losers post Sex Rev. Anne never claimed to be perfect, and I think she’s taking the feedback with grace. She has acknowledged her own mistakes and weaknesses in general – from her first letter to me. She is well aware that she has been emotionally aloof, and seeks to improve herself.
I believe Anne welcomes constructive criticism, which is what I hope we can provide – a constructive approach, or strategy, for her to succeed in this relationship.
@Marellus
Did you just compare me to Sandor Clegane? How would you have advised Anne differently?
Wow, Susan, this is the second post in like three weeks I find nothing to complain about!
I guess that means I have my afternoon free!
Sue: “Anne does not play hard to get. She is hard to get.”
I disagree with your entire comment.
Having a huge filter is perfectly fine in the rejection phase, but she’s playing these flakey games even when she likes him after sex. Being hot doesn’t mean you get a free pass out of being a decent person, and continuing these games too long is the very thing that will keep her from having a decent relationship with a self-respecting Vox Beta.
“Nick Krauser could never pull Anne. She’s an educated Londoner dating independently wealthy men. His accent is, well, um, not posh, and he’s unlikely to ever be within 100 yards of her.”
“Just saying. The Venn Diagram of Krauser and Anne’s social circles do not touch.”
Ha – good point. Could be Krauser – he’s daygamer in London like me and this sounds like PUA tactics.
I am less sociopath, but I have been pulling chicks like those before, so it’s not about social circles (street has everything – from strippers to models).
Anna, if this guy of yours is bald guy around 35 – run fast and and don’t look back.
One thing that seems increasingly clear to me is that the quality, provisioning-capable LTR-minded men in the SMP are deeply concerned about malinvestment.
-They know about the so-called “35 Wall” vs. the later age of marriage and the tension that this creates for women;
-they know about female complaints regarding the scarcity of good men;
-they know that many women want the SAHM option and that many/most men cannot provide it;
-they know about the college ratio numbers;
-they know about the family court system’s homicidal impulses towards males;
-and they know about how their hot player friends have been behaving in this environment and about the popular “carousel” and “alpha fucks, beta bucks” memes.
As a result, we see among the high-MMV male crowd an obsession with chastity and female N (as witnessed here many times) and a near zero-tolerance view towards behavioral problems. Basically the quality, in-demand guys in the SMP who are unrestricted are just taking on the player lifestyle, while the ones who are restricted are becoming extremely choosy and judgmental (I read the phrase “Taliban Jim” recently and have started using it because I think that it is an amusing, not-wholly-inaccurate way to describe this latter type).
I wonder if it is safe to safe that the age of the pure Mr. Nice Guy may be nearly over, at least where high SMV or MMV men are concerned. Successful Girl Game strategists (such as Susan’s proteges) will of course adapt to these scarcity conditions, but I fear that many may seek refuge in completely counterproductive, pro-entitlement/narcissism tracts like The Rules.
Anne,
I am short (5.3) and used to be a lowly omega who couldn’t have a date to save my life. Lost my virginity at the ripe age of 36. I am now a local political figure, light years away from your world, but I still get approached reasonably frequently (reject most of them, by the way).
That to tell you I know both attitudes, and they are worlds apart. The perpetually dateless nerd will accept anything to get a bit of attention from anything remotely resembling a woman. The man who gets some attention from women will be far more picky, especially for what concerns character, not so much because they have options (that kind of thinking belongs to cad-land) but because they tell themselves : she is beautiful, but immature and that’s not what I want, so let’s move on.
In your case, I’d suggest swallowing your pride and going back to him to apologize and tell him what you feel. The rules are not the same for quality men : they look for a partner, not some bratty arm-candy, and a partner is an adult.
As for your previous boyfriend, he was a cad, nothing more. Genuine people have emotions, and that keeps them from being too smooth.
And, Longlost, I wouldn’t be so severe. Changing one’s perspective on life is quite hard, but asking is the first step. Let the one who never deluded himself throw her the first stone. I certainly won’t.
A final word of warning. One of my friends is (was) as beautiful as you are, intelligent with a prestigious diploma and more connected than I could dream of being. The same kind of girl as you (and yes I did a lot of orbiting around her and got friendzoned fair and square). She is now fourty, single and childless, not particularly successful professionally with more than twenty serious ex-boyfriends behind her. She has been dateless for nearly a year now and things are not getting better. Frankly I am bit worried since I value her as a friend.
Don’t be her
This whole sitch is awash now. She might as well seek out someone new. She fouled up big time with the Miami thing and really screwed the pooch on that one. Even if they managed to work things out Anne might sabotage things in the future and I can’t blame Stephen one iota for his actions at this point. Realize too that you don’t come across too many men that will pique your interest and draw you in like Stephen especially since it sounds like he is very charismatic. He sounds very analytical too so much in fact that he knew when to exactly cut and run and not look back…for his sake, not being mean, just sounds like Anne will have to make drastic changes in a short time frame because as other posters above already stated he won’t be lacking in the interested females for long.
Aunt Giggles making HB# calls? Now that’s a post I’d like to read.
But then again, you already know it’s men who define what’s sexy for women already,..
@Anne
Oh well, try a cactus then … I really liked the small cacti one of my female friends gave me (this after I mentioned to her, that I wanted a low maintenance garden one day, where I just have to piss on the plants and they’re happy) … and stay away from gifts like this. Now put on your combat mascara, watch some Black Adder comedies, eat a kebab … and start plotting Annie …
… what ?! … you’re still reading this Anne ? … you must be from Stevenage … *sigh* … you leave me with no choice … cheerio …
I usually don’t feel I have the right to weigh in on other people’s relationship issues, but:
“So, you expected him to have no problem with you breaking plans to sleep yet you weren’t willing to allow him the option of not even making plans because he was getting sleep. You expected a sacrifice from him that you weren’t willing to make. And it is all downhill from here.”
I agree, that’s where it all went wrong.
But that goes for any woman, not just the really pretty ones, right?
(What are all of the “girl game”/emotional escalation posts again? It’s almost Christmas but I’ve felt rather cold lately.)
If you must know, I ran her pic by a few guys…virtual jaws dropped. One asked if it was Kate Upton, hence the comparison. Of course, they just confirmed what I already knew.
@OTC
I don’t think it has anything to do with decency. Her problem is strategic – she is signaling a low level of emotional involvement, even though she feels quite emotionally invested.
I suggest that her tendency to withhold and reject is partly born of necessity. She is guarded and wary of men. For every good guy who sacks up to ask her out, I can guarantee you she has to reject 9 cads. A woman like Anne can see her N skyrocket if she does not arduously filter for character. One way of filtering is waiting to see which men are truly in it for the long haul, as evidenced by the tenacity of their pursuit. There is some validity to this approach, as cads will rarely stick it out. The risk, of course, is that she wears down the good guy, as she has apparently done in this case.
@Suzan
… Suzan-deary … I’ll come and mow your lawn … and I’ll wear tight fitting pants with a be-view-tiful g-string, so that you may have no trouble locating my poor sexy arse for spanking, if my workmanship is shoddy …
Or maybe he has natural dominance and self-respect…
The idea that any PUA would be in this situation is laughable.
Anne: What do you do for a living?
PUA: Chase pussy.
Anne: Excuse me?
PUA: I get my dick wet professionally.
Anne: Is that lucrative?
PUA: No, I’m broke.
@Erwan:
Great post. Very honest and sensitive. The last part of my comment at #64 also had to do with this:
“A final word of warning. One of my friends is (was) as beautiful as you are, intelligent with a prestigious diploma and more connected than I could dream of being. The same kind of girl as you (and yes I did a lot of orbiting around her and got friendzoned fair and square). She is now fourty, single and childless, not particularly successful professionally with more than twenty serious ex-boyfriends behind her. She has been dateless for nearly a year now and things are not getting better. Frankly I am bit worried since I value her as a friend.”
Wooof! The world is small. What you describe is 90% percent the current situation of one of my distant relatives: A 50 years old former model who orbited in the show biz area. Countless successful, high profile boyfriends… Now single and childless, modeling now LONG gone and no genuine men wanting to come near her. Last time I heard from her through my sister, she was on med for depression.
@Anne
I agree with Susan on this one, but let me try and frame it in perhaps a more relatable manner. Let’s take this situation and imagine that the roles are reversed (his actions ascribed to you and yours to his). You have some really good first dates, things move along, and you start sleeping together. You leave on a trip, and you really want to see the guy you’re dating when you get back. However, that guy completely flakes on you when you get back (I don’t think you realize how big a slap in the face to him this was). Given that he flaked on you, you tell him it’s up to him to reschedule (the right move). He doesn’t reschedule, and instead his next communication is a straight-up, full-on booty call. If that was the situation, most of your gfs, and guy friends, would tell you to run for the hills, because all the guy is interested in is sex. So imagine it from that point of view.
Second, to go back to the flaking on him, it’s much worse than you made it out to be. He’s busy with work. He sets aside time to meet you for dinner. Dinner usually means reservations. You say you fell asleep. So there he is, with reservations for dinner, perhaps even at the restaurant (how would he know not to show up?), and you as a no show and incommunicado. He’s just been completely stood up and publicly embarrassed. You then barely apologize and say you’d be up for drinks much later. Even if he didn’t go to the restaurant, he may even have told his friends he was going to dinner with you, and then you just disappear. It’s a pretty humiliating situation. I would have acted exactly as he did. I would have put the burden completely on you to make it up to me, and if you didn’t, goodbye. You made no effort to make amends. Instead you booty called him. If you think that means anything to a guy who actually wants to date you, you’ve got to re-think your priorities. It may be that most guys are so blown away by the idea of having sex with you that they accept sex as an apology, but any guy with options will just be offended, as you would be were you in his shoes and a guy did that to you.
In summary, I think this guy is into you and did want to date you, but he is a guy who has other options, and isn’t blinded by your beauty. He’s unwilling to put up with your disrespect just to be dating you. He acted almost exactly as I would have acted.
PS Seems like you have a history of dating wealthy older men even though you’re in college. You’re doing two things there: you’re swimming with the sharks (the guys who use their money to get laid), or you’re putting a HUGE red flag on yourself, because those guys who are into you will think you’re just after their money.
Sai
“So, you expected him to have no problem with you breaking plans to sleep yet you weren’t willing to allow him the option of not even making plans because he was getting sleep. You expected a sacrifice from him that you weren’t willing to make. And it is all downhill from here.”
I agree, that’s where it all went wrong.
But that goes for any woman, not just the really pretty ones, right?
Me: I would agree, but I wonder whether the less pretty ones are forgiven as much???? It is the beautiful/sane/crazy matrix. When a woman is a lot more attractive, her craziness seems to be more expected or it is forgiven for whatever reason.
@Zach
I was nodding along to your comment until this P.S. First, I do not consider 22-25 a notable age difference that amounts to Anne dating “wealthy older men.” He’s a 25 yo rich guy. Second, you make assumptions about Anne’s own circumstances. I think it’s fair to say she runs in a crowd that is very high status, herself included. Anne and Stephen are well matched socially.
@Anne
Sorry if I missed this, but did you reply to his Friday morning text? Wouldn’t that have been the time to start setting up definite plans for the weekend?
@Susan
Any college girl dating a guy out of college is dating an older man. The difference in life experience, maturity and priorities is huge. And if I recall correctly, both her boyfriends had family money, which is very, very different than guys who are high-status because they went to great schools, got good jobs, etc.
At 22, would anybody really fully understand what to look for in a potential life partner. Everybody I knew at 22 was more focused on how to secure a job (graduated ’09, deep on the recession) and keeping the good time going rather than what who would be a great partner.
In the 3 and 1/2 years since I’ve graduated I’ve faught hard to secure a good job, seems relatives foreclosed on, seen my good friends form family, lost my apartment as most of what I owned and move on again. So have a lot of people I know who in my age range (26-30). I don’t know of someone still in school or fresh out would have the maturity to really match up well in a relationship with someone who’s been grinding it out the world for a few years. I think that’s what we’re mostly seeing here.
@Susan regarding guardedness. I find it interesting that you see more in her behavior as indicating low emotional investment, while others see it is a matter of basic decency.
It is possible to have low emotional investment and be guarded, at the same time one is polite and decent in behavior. It is not as though she needs to be running around declaring undying love and telling him how much she likes and appreciates him.
Common courtesy and decency doesn’t require that, and that is what is so apparent in all her discussions of her interactions with him, a lack of consideration which seems to border on disrespect, not low emotional investment.
@Susan Walsh
“The risk, of course, is that she wears down the good guy, as she has apparently done in this case”
The “cad” might be normal guy, who just noticed how girls operate and adjusted. She started playing this game, he just followed.
I am currently dating very nice asian girl – nevertheless, she shit tested me hard from start. Kiss close on d6 (no fclose yet) – without PUA experience, I will be over already. That’s reality.
Given a chance, I will commit to her.
So it is a matter then of shit-testing for character through her indication of low investment and the principle of least interest, ie., does he really like me? As compared to her shit testing for character because she can seem self absorbed and inconsiderate of others, shit testing because she wants to see whether he will jump? In this case, it seems that is what the guy thought; she was shit testing his character in a way which proved something more about her that he didn’t like….
“Anna, if this guy of yours is bald guy around 35 – run fast and and don’t look back.”
Uh, she’s 22 and hot. Probability that her guy is bald OR 35 is 0.1%
@pvw
You’re right, I agree that her actions have been disrespectful. If it was a guy doing those things I’d be saying “He’s a cad, run away!”
I think where I’m finding some empathy is in her having genuine feeling for him, but expressing it poorly. Pretending you don’t care for someone when you do is less objectionable than pretending you do care for someone when you don’t, IMO.
It sounds to me like a lot of her distancing behavior, i.e. no breakfast in the morning after sex, was meant to prevent a strong emotional attachment from forming on her end. Her motive was self-protection. That does not excuse discourteous behavior, but it does shed light on her intent, which was not to use this guy in any way. There is the rebound factor at work here, which suggests that she was not truly emotionally available when she met Stephen.
@Maven3
Your intent is clearly honorable and I respect it. I hope it works out for the two of you!
I do find this thread to be very focused around looks. I cannot rate this guy from 1-10 – there is a reason that scale is used mostly for women. A guy’s “rate” says little about his overall attractiveness, but it can be significant for how he sees himself. Men are visual, and many falsely assume women are too. My note on his appearance was a small paragraph at the end of my email. If Susan assumed he was very good-looking, she might have given different advice. Or he might have been labeled an alpha – maybe he is anyway, I don’t know, I don’t have sufficient ‘knowledge’ about these personality types. Either way, it was natural to give SOME mention of his looks. I find him very attractive, and I am sure other women do too.
Anne: While you are correct about the differences in Sex Rank between men and women, I don’t think you understand them completely.
For women, SR is about 60-70% appearance-based. Therefore you can look at a picture and probably figure out a woman’s SR within a couple of points, as Susan did with you. Now, that number could slide up or down dependent on the other 30-40% — for example, if you were drop-dead gorgeous and a hardcore IV drug user, or just batshit crazy, or kept 300 cats in your bathroom, that would drop you a couple. The good news (for women) is that they can use cosmetics and wardrobe and obfuscation to boost their SR temporarily.
But with men, establishment of Sex Rank is far more contextual. He might be a 9 but not look like a nine. For men, only about 40-50% of their SR is physical. The other 50-60% is contextual. His social status, wealth, affability, popularity, and other factors add to his attractiveness. Don’t believe me? Google the study that showed women saw the same dude (“bloke”) as more handsome when he stood in front of an expensive Italian sportscar than when he stood in front of a mini.
There is also an age component to SR. A woman might be an 8 when she’s 20, but when she’s a 30 year old 8 she’s still a 7 compared to a 20 year old. It’s as if women get “paid” the bulk of their attractiveness all at once, over a few years, while men get a steadily-increasing amount every year. This is just a fact of life, not a value judgement. You can either accept it and plan your mating strategy accordingly, or you can pout and have a wonderful time with a lot of cute bad boys until you get to 30 and the phone stops ringing.
If this man is as good as he seems (and dude has consummate Game — have to hand it to him. I’m saying High Beta, with the possibility of developing into a strong Wolf Alpha) then do as Susan says and stop at nothing to get him interested again. I think Susan’s suggestion is probably the lowest-hanging fruit. A polite, thoughtful, and well-mannered approach to the subject demonstrates that you are mature enough to handle a real relationship. Any other response might land you back in his bed, but it’s unlikely to land you in his life with any permanence.
This is your opportunity to grow up, step up, put on your big girl knickers and show him that you are really a woman, not a petulant child in a smokin-hot body. A man of quality will know the difference and act accordingly.
Good luck . . . and I mean that sincerely. If you’re serious, then consider acquiring some helpful wifely skills you can show off. No, really. bake the dude a pie or something.
Now, what you do with that pie, once you’ve made up, is entirely your business.
You’ve gotten a lot of advice here, and I hope you can dodge the barbs enough to take Susan’s insightful advice to heart. It sounds like you’ve got a winner, or at least the possibility of one. You are probably at the “hottest” you will ever be.
@Maven3
You sir must have the patience of a saint. My last promising date was a few months ago, after date one the subsequent interactions were shit testy and gave an air of entitlement. I just fuckin ghosted…
@Ian Ironwood
+1 on the whole comment.
@Susan: I think where I’m finding some empathy is in her having genuine feeling for him, but expressing it poorly. Pretending you don’t care for someone when you do is less objectionable than pretending you do care for someone when you don’t, IMO. … There is the rebound factor at work here, which suggests that she was not truly emotionally available when she met Stephen.
Me: Yes, I can understand you view; the other boyfriend pretended in a way which was so harmful thus she was on the rebound and not really available, which is what Stephen got caught up in. She saw herself as liking him but being guarded; he saw her as seeming to like him but being disrespectful at the same time, which meant in his view that she didn’t really like him at all.
@ Maven3 – I can’t tell what’s going on in that post, but is that an online communication with a woman in Serbia?
Given the differences in SES status between that situation and Anne’s, I don’t think we can really compare the 2, even if the age and attractiveness levels are the same. Meaning, the ability of a rich old guy in London to land beautiful young woman from Eastern Europe looking for money/citizenship doesn’t translate into his chances with woman in his own country.
@Susan
“but I would go further and say they seek women with crazy behavior for the sexual and emotional roller coaster”
I call female projection on this one. Guys will always pursue the path of least resistance when it comes to sex. Men don’t spend billions on porn and prostitutes for the emotional roller coaster.
I agree with Zach,
” I think this guy is into you and did want to date you, but he is a guy who has other options, and isn’t blinded by your beauty. He’s unwilling to put up with your disrespect just to be dating you. He acted almost exactly as I would have acted.”
@LJ
In short:
- Krauser dates some girl while in Serbia (probably from daygame approach). Girl is sexually inexperienced (one guy before)
- he chats with her 3 months (Facebook), invites her to London, organizes tickets, visa, etc.
- her fcloses her once and next day says he used her for sex (aka: I dont love you anymore)
- he posts a video where he fucks her on his blog and rambles how great he is
- she writes him this message, Krauser posts again with comment “I rejected seconds” (more ramblings)
Sick, huh?
PUA are not saints – we lure and manipulate girls for sex.
I saw a lot, but this is ugly – this level of investment (3 months + tickets, etc) just to fuck once and have 5 minutes of ugly fame in niche blog?
IMO, he’s psychopath.
Beautiful women are human candy, the perfect object to be objectified. Higher-estrogen comes with a higher sex drive, higher emotionality, higher subjectivity. The prettiest girls in my town met the worst ends, and people still don’t pity them – because they’re the physical version of the 1%ers. Even now, at this low point, a part of me is tempted to address her directly with negs or false sympathy.
I agree that she misplayed a few things. Like people said, a beautiful woman can get shepherded into the short-term pile because of her excessive options. In the short-term, maybe the sex is so good that the woman gets addicted. If not, once the deed is done, much of the male imperative is already satisfied. Positive Reinforcement, Alex – especially on a man with options, as all of the men in her rung will be.
Other observations: One, Anna mentioned that she didn’t feel the relationship was yet “exclusive”, despite already having had sex. I’d tweak the timeline so that personal affection can develop before sex; she can afford to wait with her looks. Two, the high estrogen also makes women more susceptible to Game, and I wonder if she was as attracted before he pulled away.
But they’re not impervious to getting played, falling for the wrong girl, etc. I have personally known various men who were clearly addicted to the drama. I’ve also known women who don’t do drama at all. There are undoubtedly more men on the “no drama” end of the spectrum and more women on the “constant drama” end, but there’s a whole lot of mixing in-between.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that men who can get sex relatively easily were much more likely to make a high maintenance woman their gf. They’re looking for someone who can engage them on an emotional level, and the most emo women are the most likely to do that. I do believe this is often related to immaturity and decreases as guys mature through their 20s. Though I can say that I know several long-married couples where the woman is still psycho at 50. Her beauty faded but her personality didn’t change.
SO much fucking lol at this lololol
“Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him? ”
She will be thinking about him 24/7. He doesn’t even have to take her out to dinner at this point. This “9″ will fuck his brains out the next time they hang out. He turned down a little pussy now (on her turf, “come over, upset your sleep schedule, do what I want so I know you’re chasing me”) for a massive reward later (he can just txt “come over” any time day or night and she’ll come over because she’s dying to have a conversation with him, she’ll shit-test him a bit pouting and all that and he can just laugh it off, escalate, and she’ll bang him like crazy).
I don’t know if the guy ran Game on purpose, I doubt it, but this is hilarious to a PUA. This is exactly what we’re talking about when we tell guys to do shit like this guy did. She’s on an emotional rollercoaster right now that he’s the center of, and she loves every minute of it compared to some lame Nice Guy boyfriend who doesn’t push her through any emotions.
IN FACT, Game and PUA tactics work *SO WELL* that Susan herself, a complete anti-PUA chick-advice blogger, is actively ENCOURAGING this HB9 to “go crawling on him on your hands and knees” lolololol
Oh god, I love it.
“She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day.”
I seem to recall mentioning that Game was made for the hottest girls.
What a day lol thanks for the laugh Sue. You guys who still aren’t sure about Game reading this site, come on over to the dark side, we have pussy. lol
@yareallyhahaha
“I don’t know if the guy ran Game on purpose, I doubt it, but this is hilarious to a PUA. This is exactly what we’re talking about when we tell guys to do shit like this guy did. She’s on an emotional rollercoaster right now that he’s the center of, and she loves every minute of it compared to some lame Nice Guy boyfriend who doesn’t push her through any emotions.”
I will say on purpose
Not so many guys (alpha, beta or PUA) can walk away from 9hb.
@Susan
“In fact, I’d go so far as to say that men who can get sex relatively easily were much more likely to make a high maintenance woman their gf”
That’s because men who can get sex easily tend to know how to manage hot girls — and hot girls just happen to be emotional wrecks most of the time (coughAnnacough). Men are not attracted to drama in and of itself. If you line up a drama-queen hot girl with her drama-free equivalent, the guy will pick the drama-free version 100% of the time.
@yareally
Apparently on the dark side, you also have the writing abilities of a 10 year old lolololololololol
This guy’s “game” was literally having self-respect. There was no manipulation of any sort, no “negging”, none of that bullshit you idiots go on about. He just refused to be disrespected.
“Anne does not play hard to get. She is hard to get.”
No. Any woman is hard to get for some men and easy to get for others. All women play hard to get, but the SMV rank of the men that get played varies.
@Zach
Or he’s running some super tight dread game.
I don’t think she is nuts but she needs to imagine how this looks from a man’s point of view. This is exactly how it would appear if she had lost interest in the guy but didn’t want to tell him bluntly (and who ever does?). He looked at the evidence and drew a reasonable conclusion. At this point it might be difficult to convince him of the opposite. If she follows up weakly, it might come off as guilt (maybe not the right word). That is, a way that she can lessen the feelings of having rejected a perfectly nice man. I know that doesn’t seem to make much sense but I would expect it.
@Susan#134
I think there’s some serious variation there. I married a hard 8 with a brain, no drama and a number of other great stuff in her hatband, though before making that jump I had bed access to a number of nines and one 10 (who I walked away from b/c she was boring).
I don’t know a whole lot about the game thing besides some reading lately over the past few months, but I think that men have some equivalent to the hypergamous thing in terms of a “beauty floor.” If I’m perfectly happy with an 8 or above, I don’t care about 8 vs 9 vs 10; once you’re in my radar, it’s other factors that’ll determine whether I’m willing to commit to you.
This from a fat old PUA. He ain’t got no Annes.
Perhaps, but that’s not the choice on offer. I have observed that many men of high SMV are with seriously crazy women. I don’t believe that most beautiful women are crazy, but even if you were right, it’s clear that a man would rather date a crazy 9 than a sweet and nurturing 8. Not to mention the crazy 7s I’ve seen with decent bf’s.
Can people please learn to read? As stated in the opening paragraph of her email to Susan, the guy is clearly 25!!!!!! He is NOT 35. Definitely not Krauser.
@Hollenhund
The more beautiful the woman, the harder she is for any one man to win, due to mad competition. She has almost unlimited options. She does run the risk of being too selective, but that is not Anne’s problem.
“it’s clear that a man would rather date a crazy 9 than a sweet and nurturing 8″
Not necessarily. For some men, perhaps, this is always true. For others, it is never true. And for some us, one experience with a crazy HB is enough to make us say “never again” and seek sanity even if it means trading in a couple of SMV points.
@Zach
Every blogger pimping PUA tactics is suffering from massive PTSD. Rollo and KrauserPUA have shared how devastated and broken they were by a woman earlier in life. Roosh has shared how thoroughly rejected he was by women until he went dark. Based on yareally’s description of his own appearance, I suspect his story is similar.
These guys are in a bad way, mentally.
@Russ
Yes, I’m sure there is. Well done, btw.
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