I rarely post two letters from readers back to back, but I received an email today that is both time-sensitive and potentially instructive to readers.
I’ll begin with a confession. The real name of the writer is very unusual, and after reading her letter I had a hunch I wanted to confirm. Sure enough, she is indexed in Google images thanks to social media profiles. It is as I suspected. She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day. I don’t mean to objectify her, but I think she falls victim to a mentality that is common among beautiful women. It may sound counterintuitive, but beautiful women often have to make a special effort to land a good man, initiating intimacy, providing encouragement and offering reassurance along the way.
My advice would be the same in any case, but her looks are undoubtedly a factor in the dynamic between them.
Dear Susan,
Hi, your blog always gives such insightful advice on relationship issues, and I would love some right now because I’m in a difficult position with the first man I’ve liked in a long time. I’m 22, he’s 25.
I’ve been dating him for around two months now. I ended things with a guy this summer and was deeply depressed for a while, which is why I didn’t want to get emotionally attached too soon. There was a bit of imbalance – he took me out to nice dinners, walked me home, didn’t even make a move. When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.
I haven’t seen him in person for around 3 weeks. It’s sometimes been difficult matching our schedules (he’s working, I’m a student), and I have been travelling the past week. He said he wanted to take me to a lovely dinner the night I came back from an overseas trip. I was jetlagged when back and had a heavy lunch so I suggested a drink instead, and he accepted. I dozed off, got back to him a couple of hours later and said we could meet 45 mins later at which point it would be 10.45. He said it would be “a little too late” because he had to get up early for work, but we could meet the next day. I was pissed – that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me, he hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks, what guy says no to that because he’d get six hours rather than eight? I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.
So when I was out Thursday night I texted him (very late, early hours) asking if he was out too. For a weekday, I figured he might have been in bed. I got a reply the next morning. Friendly, as usual, but he hasn’t initiated anything since.
Worst part – Saturday night was a party hosted by a friend of his – an all night dinner and drinks. He asked me about a month ago and even convinced me to stay in town a far more days to attend. Come Saturday, I heard nothing. I’m just assuming he went to the party without me. I suppose most girls would text and go “what’s going on with that party??”. But I always assume a defensive position towards men – I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs. Plus, I did make an “initiative” Thursday night by texting first.
I was angry and in my irrational rage, I figured this was “finished from my side”, deleted him off facebook and deleted our text message history. That was yesterday, I assume he’s seen it by now, but he hasn’t said anything. I am twisting in agony trying to figure what the reason for his silence might have been… Whether someone said something about me. I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous, and I don’t think there is anything awful that may surface.
So as you can see I’m going out of my mind. I like the guy, and I know I acted irrationally when deleting him. But his behaviour was really schizo – he was all over me and seemed so genuinely interested, and then shut down on Saturday. I feel like it would be stupid to contact him now, it will seem as if deleting him was a provocation and now I’m “giving in”? I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand. Should I just wait it out?
Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him?
An ex boyfriend accused me of always causing unnecessary drama. If that seems the case, please let me know.
Anne
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you’re a regular reader, in which case you’ve seen my posts about avoiding players, and also my posts about the need for a woman to escalate emotionally when a man does get through her filter and she wants to be in a committed relationship with him.
I’m going to cut straight to the chase here.
You have been employing the Principle of Least Interest with such success that you convinced Stephen you are not interested in him. To be fair, you describe yourself as having been hurt fairly recently and feeling somewhat self-protective. It’s hard to escalate emotionally while deliberately delaying intimacy. Being introverted and not emotionally expressive makes this more challenging as well.
It sounds like Stephen was happy to go all out in pursuing you, putting in most of the effort. You already have a sense that you did not give him the reinforcement that would have helped to seal the deal early on, as you mention having regrets about remaining aloof, even after sex. However, I see some poor judgment calls here on your part within the last week or so that I don’t believe you fully recognize. At the risk of being very hard on you, I’m going to highlight them in hopes that you can learn from this experience, whether things work out with Stephen or not.
You did not act eager to reunite with him when you returned from Miami.
I understand that you were jet lagged, and I’m sure he did too. You might have rescheduled, explaining that you were dying to see him but wanted to be at your best. You could also have mentioned that you simply could not function without a couple of hours sleep, would he be amenable to a late drink?
Instead it sounds like you dismissed his plan because you were not particularly hungry (bad call) and then left him waiting and wondering until 10 p.m. That was not very considerate of his time, and it may have played a role in his declining at that point. Or he may have calculated that you would both have a much better time with less pressure by doing it the next day instead. Maybe he wanted to enjoy your company for an evening instead of racing home from the bar to have sex before an early alarm.
You felt rejected, so you punished him.
If a man is rejecting you, punishing him for doing so is not a good strategy for exciting his interest. Had you agreed to the next night, you would likely have had a passionate reunion. Instead, you told him you did not want to see him. His response that you should let him know indicates hurt feelings and hurt pride.
You sought to increase your control over him.
After turning him down, and without letting him know when you were available to see him, and how much you wanted to see him, you texted him while out late on a work night. This served to remind him that you are a carefree student who can be out and about getting attention from other men while he is required to get his sleep before another grueling day at the office. I imagine he woke in the morning, felt peeved, and his resentment grew throughout the day.
Note that you have still not texted to “let him know when you could see him.” You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.
You stubbornly waited for him to break.
You entered into a pissing match over who would blink first. It should have been you! Why do you always assume a defensive posture with men? Why are they required to do all the work? You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
Deleting him from facebook probably signalled to him that you have zero interest in him whatsoever, and want all reminders of your association gone.
In short, I don’t think his behavior has been schizo or the least bit unreasonable. I think you’ve been acting like a bit of a spoiled brat. (I say this with a maternal affection.) I don’t know whether this is salvageable, but if you really look at Stephen and see a potential father for your children, here is what I suggest you do:
Go crawling to him on your hands and knees.
Stephen,
I regret the way things have been between us for the last week. I accept responsibility for doing a very poor job of letting you know how much I wanted to see you upon my return. I have enjoyed our time together very much and I’d like to set things right. Are you free tomorrow night? Would you like to come over for a drink and we can talk about it?
Missing you,
Anne
If he is kind but says no, you’ll have time for soul searching. If he is a jerk and really was playing you in some way, he’ll be rude and unresponsive, in which case you just got rid of a bad guy. If he says yes, you’re back in the game. Respond graciously no matter what.
No more silent treatment, it’s time to make a little drama here (the good kind – as in, a dramatic gesture to surprise and delight him).
{ 1518 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Susan
“it’s clear that a man would rather date a crazy 9 than a sweet and nurturing 8.”
Sure, if by date you mean sex for a few months with no plans of further commitment. A man who can get sex easily (aka has game and thus can handle the craziness) would definitely “date” a crazy 9 over a nurturing 8.
“Not to mention the crazy 7s I’ve seen with decent bf’s.”
Decent as in high SMV and has plenty of options? Or decent as in nice/beta and lacks options? Because if there’s anything to learn from this post, it’s that high SMV men will almost never put up with dramas when it comes to LTRs.
Good point, I shouldn’t have spoken so generally. This obviously varies quite a bit from man to man. It’s an interesting analogy to cads, perhaps – a lot of women who get burned by a cad as freshmen say “never again”
“These guys are in a bad way, mentally.”
It’s time you considered blogging for Jezebel.com.
I’m triply red-flagged then.
Speaking in defense of Drama-lover-lovers: if we can picture testosterone poisoning as an over-aggressive, deep-voiced, low-vocabulary, handsome young man, then estrogen poisoning is a pretty, nurturing, high-voiced, periodically insane, young woman. Dealing with periodic insanity is often the cost of dating young and pretty.
There’s definitely a sexual component, but, in sexual relationships, that’s a given. Makeup sex isn’t the main draw – there’s a carnality in the craziness itself. Craziness and lust are both low-brain storms of emotionality, there’s cross-over between the two. In my experience, everyday sex has been much better with the dramatic women.
And now, for my attempt at rhetoric. Emotionality is insanity. Women tend to be emotional. Some women more emotional than others. Are they all so unworthy of affection? We, crazy-lovers, accept a woman’s inherent emotionality. We may correct, do not punish, a woman for it. If we must ourselves be punished and red-flagged by the less-emotional women of the world, that is a burden we must accept, in our noble pursuit, of love.
- Dedicated to S., S., D., & S..
“The more beautiful the woman, the harder she is for any one man to win, due to mad competition.”
It’s due to hypergamy. Women of varying SMV are competed for by men of varying SMV. A female 10 doesn’t have to “put up” with advances by men that are 8-9 or below because they generally don’t bother to try. It’s not like a mini-army is pursuing every hot woman. That’s nothing but a myth.
“She has almost unlimited options.”
…for casual sex. For commitment from the men she wants it from, not so much.
Winner.
Thread closed.
“It’s not like a mini-army is pursuing every hot woman. That’s nothing but a myth. “
Have you seen this?
http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
@Rollo
Dude, your asshole game doesn’t work around here. You come off as a putz.
LOL! Actually, HH, you might consider counseling yourself.
@Susan
“Every blogger pimping PUA tactics is suffering from massive PTSD. Rollo and KrauserPUA have shared how devastated and broken they were by a woman earlier in life. Roosh has shared how thoroughly rejected he was by women until he went dark. Based on yareally’s description of his own appearance, I suspect his story is similar.
These guys are in a bad way, mentally.”
OT, but can anyone blame them?
If the system is built to inflict pain is the expected result not going to be some individuals breaking?
@Ian
Thanks for owning it, and for helping me to understand what I’ve witnessed with my own eyes.
Touche! Seriously, you raise an important point – it’s all about the match. I’ve mentioned that I know several long-standing marriages where the woman is crazy. My own mother was literally crazy, and despite all the ups and downs of my parents’ marriage, I know for a fact that their attraction to each other never wavered. Their marriage outlasted many more predictable and boring ones.
“Good point! We should add a red flag – any man who says is ex (or heaven forbid, his exes) were crazy, psycho or insane should be summarily dismissed! ”
Always interesting to see the tables turn.
You fucked one alpha, your no good for an LTR.
Crazy rant (from women here) about how unrealistic the man is.
You dated on crazy chick, your no good for an LTR.
…..
Her position in this SMP is weaker than it used to be, it’s true. But a 9 is going to have more offers for every kind of male attention than a less attractive woman is, including commitment. Most of them have literally dozens of orbiters.
“If the system is built to inflict pain is the expected result not going to be some individuals breaking?”
It’s designed to inflict pain on men, but those who break are the ones who get cuckolded, divorce-raped, falsely charged with rape, bled through chilimony. As far as them are concerned, the system has served its purpose. If they also remain plugged in, its victory is complete. But if you refuse to become a victim and plug yourself out, you don’t break; you win.
@Susan#161:
The general run of pretty women won’t consider those orbiters dating/sexual material, however, simply because they orbit: they fail what I call the “daddy test.”* What beautiful women often *fail* to consider is that men they consider “in their league,” simply by that definition, are not impressed. A man who dates 5s and 6s gets starstruck by an 8 or 9. A man who dates 8-10 *might* orbit a 10 if the whole package were there. But a 9, even a hard/solid one? No way.
I’ve caught a lot of flak for saying “beautiful women are a dime a dozen” from guys for whom that apparently sounds like crazy-talk. But for me and a lot of other men it is very much the case.
(*my Daddy didn’t put up with my shit, so nobody *I* would marry will, either.)
@Russ in Texas
I agree that once the woman is above the threshold or beauty floor that then the relative beauty beyond that level are less important than personality, character, etc.
I will disagree with your use of hypergamy her somewhat.
The key point about hypergamy is setting the minimum bar at a level higher than your own (and I fully admit that all these rating systems are somewhat vague and hard to define exactly but they still get the point across in a general way).
So a woman (or a man) who is a 6 and will only accept 7+ men (women) is being hypergamous whereas just wanting someone better than yourself is not getting at the most important factor of hypergamy.
In the present day, I think there are more men willing to accept someone at his level than women are. And that makes perfect sense. The provider/protector value than men used to be able to throw into their overall value no longer adds as much because women don’t need that as much from an individual man because technology made physical strength less important (machines do most of the heavy work now and guns remove much of the differential ability to kill, plus add in the relatively safe society we live in). Without needing a provider/protector as much then women are free to focus more on pursuing pushing their attraction buttons that in prehistoric times corresponded to better genes (though how closely they correlate today is dubious because some of them can be faked such as confidence and badboyedness because there is not a close examination of whether there is substance behind the bluster like there would have been in the tribal setting).
@LJ
Thanks for that link to Jon Millward. Very interesting. Re the army of men pursuing beautiful women, I’ve discussed this with young women who are considered “the hottest” by guys. My sample is decidedly non-slutty. Here is what they report.
1. Lots of unsolicited and unwelcome attention from afar. Cat calls, cars slowing down, uncomfortable staring in public.
2. Lots of supplicating attention up close – free stuff, offers of favors, etc. in hopes of getting a number.
3. Lots of approaches from extremely cocky men who have zero interest in anything but the hot bod.
4. Frequent feedback that guys they liked didn’t feel like they had a real shot.
5. Frequent conflict in relationships due to male insecurity. This is often fed by other males – they are the ones to say “you could do a lot better.” Women have reported that they get this a lot from strangers when they are with their boyfriends! Needless to say, this creates anxiety in the bf, never a good feeling.
A beautiful woman has to filter out cads she finds attractive, while filtering in good guys she finds attractive, often without much information about which is which!
Just keeping things fair.
I don’t blame them for being a mess, but I caution others not to take their advice. It is never free and clear, it is always tainted with their own pain and anger.
I suppose you’re schooled in world history, so I won’t have to explain that Soviet propagandists used a simple method to deal with opponents: they neutralized their subversive message by giving them a label that wasn’t open to interpretation i.e. “mentally ill”.
Unlike in earlier times, the Soviet cangaroo courts didn’t even bother to sentence them without evidence or due process; it was no longer necessary. They simple rounded up their political opponents, “diagnosed” them with mental illness and locked them away for “psychiatric treatment”.
(For those unfamiliar with the subject:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union)
Jezebel, being the ideological bastard child of Marxism-Leninism, has copied these methods, of course, the main difference being that the federal government they’re allied with has not yet fully implemented it. But it’s only a matter of time. And now you’re resorting to the same method yourself. That’s pretty clear.
Can you offer a counterargument or you’ll just keep dishing out snark?
@Susan Walsh
“The more beautiful the woman, the harder she is for any one man to win, due to mad competition. She has almost unlimited options.”
That’s why I have little sympathy for female 9′s and 10′s who are with assholes. They could pick almost any guy and yet she picked him? The asshole?
I do, however, sympathize or empathize with female 9′s and 10′s who would like to have a commited, faithful relationship with a 9 or 10 value guy but half of those guys are players not looking for an LTR. This is the same dynamic that the male 4-6′s experience where probably 1/4 or 1/2 of the female 4-6′s are wanting the male 5-7′s (or higher) and both of these things totally throws off the assortive mating balance.
@HanSolo
+1 My point exactly.
“But a 9 is going to have more offers for every kind of male attention than a less attractive woman is, including commitment. Most of them have literally dozens of orbiters.”
She has desire for neither her orbiters nor for the majority of her approachers. In that she’s in the same shoes as a 6 or a 8. The only difference is that the orbiters of a female 8 are 6s and below whereas the orbiters of a female 10 are 8s and below.
@Hollenhund
I don’t need to argue the point about mental illness. We have Rollo on this thread championing Dark Triad males and the “dark side.” Those personality traits are listed as mentally disordered in the DSM for mental health professionals. In addition, scores of studies on narcissism, Machiavellianism and sociopathy highlight the way in which these “agentic” individuals operate, freely exploiting others without remorse. They score highly on disagreeableness, low on conscientiousness and extremely low on empathy. They can’t maintain LTRs, they rely on a quick in-and-out (or P&D) strategy. They don’t connect with other human beings in a meaningful way.
Poisoning the manosphere well only works on HUS.
Ian at 133: Other observations: One, Anna mentioned that she didn’t feel the relationship was yet “exclusive”, despite already having had sex. I’d tweak the timeline so that personal affection can develop before sex; she can afford to wait with her looks. Two, the high estrogen also makes women more susceptible to Game, and I wonder if she was as attracted before he pulled away.
Me: I was thinking about this. She was going into a sexual relationship from a position in which she felt conflicted; she was attracted and liked him but was distrustful. So she couldn’t respect him in the way he deserved. Not a good combination; it’s not exclusive, so she feels ready to bail at a moment’s notice, or isn’t in too deep in case he wants to. And the funny part, a more aware and self assured woman would not be having sex before knowing things were exclusive and wouldn’t be having sex without certainty about him. But it occurred to me that is the nature of today’s sexual marketplace. Too many women believe if they want to stay in the game and keep a guy’s attention, they have to put out and early. You’re right, but it takes a mature grown and self aware woman to say that the current traditional model isn’t working and that she needs to remove herself from it.
@LJ#155.
Saw that a bit ago.
It probably makes things even worse than the investigator intended, given that his top slots are inhabited by low 7s. One assumes that had he put actually beautiful women into those positions, that they’d have received many, MANY more responses.
“Those personality traits are listed as mentally disordered in the DSM for mental health professionals.”
And the colleagues of those professionals tell us that the same traits improve one’s chances in the sexual marketplace due to women’s preferences being what they are, which is the same thing the “mentally ill” “PUAs” are saying. So yes, you should indeed argue the point, because “he’s mentally ill” isn’t a counterargument, it’s a tactic in the Marxist culture war.
@HanSolo#164.
You’re right; I was hunting for an equivalent and misused the term in the process. Some “over the station” happens, though, thus my fumbling for terms. You could have some stinking hound who couldn’t actually pull a 6 if his life depended on it, but won’t look at anybody less than an 8. I was roomies once with a guy like that; it was fairly insane (classic omega behavior on rejection, too).
@Susan
“They can’t maintain LTRs, they rely on a quick in-and-out (or P&D) strategy. They don’t connect with other human beings in a meaningful way.”
shit, my LTR GF of 2 years and her family will be very puzzled to hear that.
You can keep making stuff up and using clincial sounding terminology to try to make your made up accusations carry more weight, but in reality it just doesn’t stick.
@ Russ – Interesting you would classify them as 7′s. I’m just a straight woman, but I’d wager the 2 “most attractive” of the women profiles are more attractive than ~90% of okcupid users their age., or women in real life their age. Although it’s not easy to tell given the small thumbnail pics.
But they probably wanted to show the experience for the “typical” beautiful woman that might actually use OkC, rather than just put up a pic of Mila Kunis that would be generalizable to no one.
@Russ in Texas
I agree that some guys are hypergamous. I just think more women are and it makes sense in terms of evolutionary psych.
@Yareally
I wasn’t doubting that some assholes push her attraction buttons and don’t pedalize her and she likes that.
Rather, I was looking at it from her point of view. I don’t think the world is as dichotomous or bimodal as you may be suggesting. Many of the male 9 and 10′s are neither assholes nor weak supplicators so why doesn’t she go for one of them? Well, because she excessively loves the feeling of “a guy must be better than me if he doesn’t treat me well” (obviously she’s never going to give the 5 the time of day to begin with so he can act disinterested all he wants and it won’t matter).
Also, I’m not doubting the effectiveness of game with many/most women, at least done in the right way.
I’m simply asking, why doesn’t she go for someone that is better for her? Reason? She wants to feel infatuated and more often than not the asshole makes her feel that (especially with younger, less mature girls, though some older women never change too).
Sue, for the record it wouldn’t be all that difficult to build the case that HUS is little more than your own catharsis for reliving the life you wished you’d lived for the past 28 years vicariously through attractive 22 year old women.
Glass houses and all that,..
But seriously, here you have a textbook example of (by your scale) an exceptionally attractive 22 year old woman who WAS attracted to a guy displaying Alpha dominance via his indifference to her –something she’s unaccustomed to as a high SMV girl.
And, as Game would predict, she’s locked into qualifying for his intimate acceptance. In fact you yourself want to characterize the guy as a hopeful LTR potential. How do you not see the irony in that?
“Then an asshole comes along and says “No, fuck you, you’re being retarded right now.” and she goes “holy shit, someone who I can trust to say what they REALLY think around me!!” ”
aka, passes her Daddy Test.
Yup. While I think some of the folks in game-land have a weirdly jaundiced view of popular sociology, resulting in a worldview that seems to abhor the feminine entirely, YaReally is dead on the money here.
@LJ#180,
We could run a quick poll, and that might actually be very interesting.
But it’s equally likely that I’m simply picky. I found the three women who received the top # of responses to be reasonably close to each other at high-5/7/7, and wouldn’t have been attracted to the others in the slightest.
(I *did* once date a 4, a classic “homely” butterface you couldn’t have made pretty with all the photoshop in the world – primarily because she actually fulfilled the ancient stereotype of ‘what a personality.’ Irony is, while all these folks say the pretty girls have the highest SMV…..me and Mrs. Butterface had a LOT of sex and if she hadn’t had some very specific damage/issues to which I’m allergic, there’s a decent chance she could have landed me for real. Me and the wifey are still in touch with her two decades later.)
Interesting, but I would say you seem to be in the minority in seeing the girl w/ glasses as close to the attractiveness levels of the 2 women to the right of them, given the ~10: 1 ratio of messages they received.
@HanSolo
“That’s why I have little sympathy for female 9′s and 10′s who are with assholes. They could pick almost any guy and yet she picked him? The asshole?”
INORITE
“the hero meets the villain and they have a massive life or death struggle and you’re falling off the edge of your seat pulling your hair out with anticipation and excitement and BOOM!!! The hero wins!! The day is saved!! Everyone celebrates”
Hang on, this sounds more like action than drama. Now it’s true, I will watch Die Hard and Conan the Barbarian over and over, but if there’s no action I’ll do like Samuel L. Jackson says and go the &%$# to sleep, because I just don’t care.
Susan,
This right here is absolutely brutal unless the guy has rock solid inner game or is undoubtedly an SMV match to the 8-10. Multiple times over the years I’ve been out with an attractive girl and when I’m getting drinks for us or something a guy will take a shot at the girl I am with who looks to be alone. I’ve even overheard conversations as they go something like this…
Guy: Hey, why are you over here by yourself?
Girl: I’m not. I’m with someone.
Guy: Oh yea? Who?
Girl: Him (points to me)
Guy: Oh, he’s pretty good. Lucky guy though, have a good night.
This has only worked in my favor purely because of looks and musculature, but without that I can only imagine the damage that would occur to the psyche. If a guy is an overall 8-10, but not an 8-10 physically, this situation happens a ton and other guys will try to blow him out. I see it all the time and the worst women are the ones that feed into it. These beautiful girls need to reassure the guys every now and then if they want to maintain the peace.
@Rollo
This is passive aggressive and faux-intellectual, I’ve lost the tingle you hoped to gain through your earlier wise-ass asides. Build the case directly that Susan is living her preferred life vicariously through her coaching of 22-year olds, without the “would be”.
I don’t know you, but I sense vaguly that you’re in the pickup scene. There’s a recurring with PUA’s that they try to become what they learn women find attractive. Problem, what works in a bar with women doesn’t work with the men who are unlike women.
In many places, humility is learned through pain. Men don’t speak sharply because even weak punches hurt, and teach humility and respect. In the military, in manlier countries, in Susan’s hometown and mine, men have to do more to earn respect than affect a sexy persona.
@yarighthaha
If this was my site, I would ban you permanently for the crime of using “lol” nine times in one post. Add the emoticon, capitalizations, multiple exclamation points, and that post was mental graffiti. Please leave, or at least leave the teenage-girl prose some place where I won’t read it.
@LJ.
Author: LJ
Comment:
Interesting, but I would say you seem to be in the minority in seeing the girl w/ glasses as close to the attractiveness levels of the 2 women to the right of them, given the ~10: 1 ratio of messages they received.
Yup. That’s the advantage of experience. #3 is backlit with a crappy camera — it’s a photo tailor-made to make her look like crap. Dollar to a donut in real life she’s prettier. The other two are shot with good lighting and decent camaras, and are making them look BETTER than they do IRL.
The hard-8 I married looked no better than the #2 or #3 recipient here until she got out from under a pair of birth-control-glasses and me and her Dad got her to stop dressing frumpy.
If there’s anything that game deniers should learn from this post, it’s that dread game — much like every other PUA technique, including negging — is simply something that high SMV men naturally do.
You can ridicule the nerds who broke those actions down and applied PUA terminologies to them, but what you can’t deny is that those actions work. Shaming PUA tactics as “manipulation” is simply feminine talk since women want “natural alphas” instead of “learned alphas”.
Yeah, I know rollo and yareally are basically Dark Triad Males and are getting a lot of well-deserved hate, but they basically got it nailed.
Let’s look at this from the guy’s POV, IF HE WERE A PLAYER.
Dating a 9, she puts out in less than a month. Doesn’t even need commitment, so he’s free to hook up with other girls, which I’m 100% sure he’s able to do. Girl leaves on vacation (hell, that just made picking up other girls easier!), comes back and offers a booty call.
He says no, girl responds crazily, but is so twisted up and thinking about him all the time that she is asking the internet for assistance. Willing to bet dollars to donuts that if he called asking for another late night drink (read: Booty Call), Anne would jump at the offer.
This isn’t a horrible situation for the guy at all, and if he is a player, this is going right into his hands.
Anne’s problem, IMO, is not one of strategy, it’s one insecurity and immaturity. That’s why she can sleep with a man she barely knows but not make him a cup of coffee. Sorry, Anne, I don’t mean to offend you, I wasn’t really mature enough for a relationship at 22 either. Neither was Hope, from what she is saying.
It might work out with this guy, it might not, but you’re not quite ready for another relationship yet. You’re obviously still hurt from the last one, you’re not fully matured yet, and you are very vulnerable because of that. That will, more times than not, result in you getting hurt.
And the more you get hurt, well….
I would actually take a break from the whole dating scene period. Recharge your batteries, come back in a year, and see what lemonade you can make of the lemons that life gives you
@YaReallyHaHa…
“Which movie that I just described would YOU want to publish if you were a movie studio?”
reminds me of the Henry Rollins ‘Funny Guy’ track where he compares the two movies:
“Happy Guy” – empty movie theatre
“Psycho Manic Depressive Motherfucker” – lines around the block
as you said, “People want to experience a full range of emotions. It makes us feel alive.”. Rollins agrees, but he’s funnier than you (sorry about that).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000S5BU6K
track 6
starts about 4 minutes in.
(I prefer ‘Think Tank’ as an album though)
@Rollo
Ever heard of a theorem, its converse and contrapositive ? It’s the done thing in mathematics. Here is how it works :
A theorem is in the form of : If (something) then (something else).
So what is the converse then ? Well, you switch those two brackets around. And then it looks like this :
If (something else) then (something).
And here is the funny thing Rollo; the converse of a theorem is not always true. I’ll explain later. Just keep this in mind.
So what is the contrapositive then ? Well, you take the converse and you add a “not” to each bracket. So the contrapositive looks like this:
If “not” (something else) then “not” (something).
Easy isn’t it ? And here’s the rub: The converse of any theorem is ALWAYS true. In fact, some theorems can only be proven by making use of the contrapositive.
So what is a real life example then ?
Theorem : If someone is a lawyer then he is a bastard.
Converse : If someone is a bastard then he is a lawyer.
Do you see how they were switched around Rollo ? And like I said, the converse of a theorem is not always true. So why is that ?
It’s because some bastards are politicians …
Contrapositive : If someone is “not”a bastard then he is “not”a lawyer.
Always true, don’t you think Rollo ?
So let’s apply this to what you’re needling Suzan about :
Theorem : If someone is a PUA then he has Game. (True)
Converse : If someone has Game then he is a PUA.
Eh ? I’m not buying this. I think ole Steven could be an exception. There will be others … after all, Rollo, I need only one counterexample to disprove the converse.
So this is not an “irony” Rollo … it’s a failed converse … hence, it’s a case of railing against the player … and not the Game.
But at least you, and Suzan, will agree on the contrapositive :
If someone does not have Game, then that someone is not a PUA.
Heh.
Another thing that struck me about you and Suzan, is by analogy of boxing :
Styles make fights.
And your style of writing (and debating) Rollo, will not have any effect on her. If you’re a Foreman ( with such powerful punches : Foreman destroyed Frazier, where Ali had his work cut out for him), then by heavens, Suzan is your Ali.
She’s rope-a-doping you.
It’s also why deti is having trouble with Suzan, but to give him credit, he’s more like Joe Frazier. He has heart.
And now you’re thinking what kind of a woman can bring me to my knees Rollo ?
Here she is.
Coulda Woulda Shoulda.
I mean it.
Is this Krauser chap the Brit I-banker who went PUA? Intellectually sophisticated, favors MMA training, sort of down on Mystery Method-type “cookbook” approaches? Or do I have the wrong guy here?
@Sai
action movie? just watched ‘Lockout’, pretty cool
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1592525/
just about to restart ‘Killer Joe’, first ten minutes were cool. the beaver was strangely hirsuite.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1726669/
(Top Henry Rollins – Think Tank – Airport Hell)
BB – sounds like Krauser to me.
@yareally
What Ian said. You sound like a teenage girl.
Great, you can get laid. Big deal. That’s what I find so pathetic about guys like you, Rollo, etc. Once you’ve had enough sex, it’s not really all that important anymore. You think that because you’ve built your life around getting laid all the time, that that’s what everyone else wants. It’s probably because you never merited a look from a girl for so long that you’re massively overcompensating for the insecure little boy (lol) inside of you. I’ve turned down sex plenty of times before. It’s not the be-all and end-all of life. Although since you do sound like you’re in high school, so maybe you do think that. Guys learning how to get better at talking to women? Fine, all for it. Guys who determine their entire self-worth on the ability to get women into bed? Pathetic. Grow up. I have to run to something that doesn’t involve chasing pussy, or else I’d continue.
Han: “I do, however, sympathize or empathize with female 9′s and 10′s who would like to have a commited, faithful relationship with a 9 or 10 value guy but half of those guys are players not looking for an LTR.”
Why? I won’t feel sympathy for women who won’t extend the same sympathy to men. Not specifically, and definitely not generically.
If there’s no quarter for deltas and gammas other than laugh at him at wordt, and say “man up” a best – then it’s the same for women. I make exceptions for those who go out and seem kind to those less fortunate (like Jackie).
Sympathy for people way above me, be it by wealth or looks, is in near-zero supply.
Yo,Susan @96. Didn’t mean to ruffle feathers. We agree Krauser not the guy. The guy stills sounds like he absorbed some Roissy lessons – if the gal is being coy and flighly, move on. We take your word for it she is a 9 and can get the top 1%. But, just like you said, we all know the guys in the top 1% have lots of action. And she probably missed her chance to nail the guy down. She will undoubtedly snare some rich guy. Why fret over a 9′s problems when you have many more 6-7 fishes to fry?
@Zach
You know you’re on a site called Hooking Up Smart, right?
Why are you so obsessed with sex, bro?
Actually this is a common mistake, I do not self-identify as a PUA, an MRA or a MGTOW. If you really need a title for me it would be Game Theorist. I’m more like the Jane Goodall of the manosphere – I pay attention, I observe and then I formulate theories and practical working models from that observation. Some of those models I may practice, other I may not, but the difference between myself and Aunt Sue is that I don’t deny their origins or effectiveness.
8. False Premises Hate
Hater: Yeah, sure, game works well for picking up low self-esteem bar skanks.
A great deal of hate is fueled by false premises. Concocting convenient scenarios, imagining the worst of your enemies, and reinterpreting their successes are a salve for the burned ego. Newsflash: your thin-skinned indignation is not my moral crisis.
The first law of Game is that anyone telling you one size of Game fits all is selling you something.
Wait a few minutes, I’m sure Susan will be around soon to give you a treat shortly.
@Zach
12. Fallacy of Misdirected Obsession Hate
Hater: A guy who spends his life obsessing over how to get women is a loser.
A guy who spends his life obsessing over climbing the corporate ladder to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who spends his life obsessing over mastering guitar and playing in a rock band to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who spends his life obsessing over pursuing financial rewards and acquiring resources to get more attention from women is a loser.
A guy who….. ah, you get the point.
Long-term relationship potential?
Easy test for women: how do you feel about washing his socks?
“A guy who spends his life obsessing over mastering guitar and playing in a rock band to get more attention from women is a loser.”
But this is precisely the reason we have shitty ass bands like nickelback and buck cherry… how about learning for the sake of creating good music and pushing yourself to be the best despite what anyone else thinks?
I don’t see many jazz, classical or extreme metal musicians neck deep in trim but these types all have incredible musical abilities.
Starting a nickelback cover band to bang chicks IS pretty lame.
Russ in Texas “Easy test for women: how do you feel about washing his socks?”
Did it just today, sorted, folded and put away, as always.
But we went over this in a different conversation. Men don’t fall in love with women who clean for them because of the cleaning. They fall in love with the fun and sexy aspects first and then evaluate long-term potential.
I sense Teh Crazy….run, Man, RUN!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtXdKETotbc
I’m so confused by this sudden PUA takeover. …surely there’s a happy medium between sycophant and pickup artist? My impression is that Anna’s guy is just a decent dude who has self-respect. This isn’t “dread game”, it’s basic dignity.
A willingness to wash socks is, however, an unambiguous statement regarding long-term potential.
The flip side of that, though, and why I posted it, is Anne or another gal in her shoes responses with a vocal-fried “OMG, No,” then she’s just answered the LTR question for herself unambiguously.
Emily, I agree on the happy medium. Some of those guys have a very “out there” sense of how society works.
What the PUA guys did, and doing so was actually a service to the rest of us at large, was observe and describe the things that successful men did, and analyze for why. In that sense “Game” can loosely be translated to “understands intersex relations,” and anybody can benefit.
Actually, Rollo is being modest. Several of us who like his writing and ideas refer to him as the Plato of Pussy.
@Rollo
Previously, it would have been an insult to call you someone who would argue under false premises, in a post about false-premises. Knowing that, find the exact words “low self-esteem bar skanks”. If you can’t, take a moment to observe the human nature of what that implies.
As a fellow observer of human nature, and a smarter one, let me share an anecdote with you. Susan’s hometown has a bit of a Martial tradition. I have observed quiet, medium-height, slender men from that town, with fighting experience, wall up shoulder-to-shoulder, four-across, and knock the false confidence off of a group of 20 men, from a more effete, pleasure-loving culture.
Though the four men were neither cocky, nor funny, nor had they received internet-based training in remedial manliness, they managed to date and sleep with the most highly-attractive women in their combined social circles, drawing mainly from the effete men’s neighborhoods. Because they carried themselves with respect, I respected them.
Having that knowledge, were you to meet Susan, among her cousins on the street, would you dare to derisively call her Aunt Sue? If you would not, for fear, I do not respect you. If you would, I still would not respect you. Even if you win the fight, you’d deserve to lose.
If you cannot gain my respect, you are not an alpha. You are acting the part of an alpha, for sex, and a woman who falls under your spell, for sex with an alpha, is being lied to. No one with confidence studies to achieve the appearance of it. In your language, affected cockiness is a DLV, however many insecure and immature young women, many of whom frequent bars, it dupes.
@A Definite Beta Guy #194: “Anne’s problem, IMO, is not one of strategy, it’s one insecurity and immaturity…”
Me: We are seeing the world of combat dating at work. Women are at a distinct disadvantage: see BB’s post #103.
Re: The sock test
How hard is it to wash socks? Any rogue socks that end up on my floor get thrown in the laundry with the rest of my clothes and then eventually make their way back to my boyfriend’s house. My bf does the same thing with any of my clothes that are left at his place.
I hear that this type of joyous fraternal affection was more common during Plato’s time.
Really, I haven’t browsed in a few weeks. What’s bringing in all the bronies, and how long have they been here?
@Emily
“This isn’t “dread game”, it’s basic dignity.”
What you’re saying is “I know that car is moving but it has nothing to do with physics, it’s just driving a car.”
All we’re doing is labelling very obvious consistent human psychology that naturally exists. You move your body up off the ground and back down again, and I label that a “jump” and help other people learn how to purposely use their leg muscles to create a “jump”.
@Russ in Texas
“A willingness to wash socks is, however, an unambiguous statement regarding long-term potential. ”
I don’t like to wash my OWN socks. I’m terrified to learn what that means lol
“In that sense “Game” can loosely be translated to “understands intersex relations,” and anybody can benefit.”
The question there then, is why are we demonized for being extremely competent at understanding something and using that understanding to achieve a goal? Nobody cries out when someone studies to be good at Chess, or at being a Doctor. And in fact, when done properly and used in the recommended manner (“leave them better than you found them”), the end result is two satisfied people who have fond memories of fun orgasms together. The girls I’ve been with have nothing but good things to say about me and our time together because part of PUA is understanding the psychology of how to make sure a woman feels good about hooking up instead of feeling shameful/slutty. The only sad emotions some of them feel is that I won’t be their boyfriend, but I was honest and up-front with them about not being able to provide that from the very start.
@Ian
“I have observed quiet, medium-height, slender men from that town, with fighting experience”
Oh is this going to be one of those things where you threaten someone over the Internet, not directly, but by heavily implying that “Bad Things”(TM) will happen to anyone who does something you disapprove of? I liked when Clint Eastwood did the whole “You ever meet someone you shouldn’t have messed with?” bit in that “GET OFF MY LAWN” movie too lol
For what it’s worth, I’ve picked up girls in biker bars and cowboy bars and angry little small towns with”good ol’ small town values” and shit. Those guys aren’t real difficult to befriend, and you just game their girls a little more subtly than in the big city type places.
“If you cannot gain my respect, you are not an alpha.”
Bit narcissistic to assume that everyone wants your respect, wouldn’t you say? Careful, that’s a Dark Triad trait.
Emily,
Not hard — unless you have raging entitlement issues…..
@Ian
“What’s bringing in all the bronies, and how long have they been here?”
Righteous vindication in this article where Sue instructs an HB9 to throw herself begging at a guy running Dread Game.
Well played on the Bronies thing. Sorry if we disrupted the love fest by pointing out reality.
@ Senior Beta # 201
Yo,Susan @96. Didn’t mean to ruffle feathers. We agree Krauser not the guy. The guy stills sounds like he absorbed some Roissy lessons – if the gal is being coy and flighly, move on. We take your word for it she is a 9 and can get the top 1%. But, just like you said, we all know the guys in the top 1% have lots of action. And she probably missed her chance to nail the guy down. She will undoubtedly snare some rich guy.
….Why fret over a 9′s problems when you have many more 6-7 fishes to fry?
Me: Now this sounds interesting, how do you think this sort of thing would work?
@ PVW
There’s strategy, and there’s mindset. It’s like playing poker and trying to tell an extremely angry, tempermental guy that his strategy doesn’t work, except that’s silly, he can’t implement a good strategy because his mindset is screwed up. He gets angry too easily, he can’t think, he can’t…etc.
He needs to fix his mindset before he can even think about fixing his strategy.
Same thing with good ol’ Anne, here, IMO. It’s one thing that you don’t wash a guy’s socks because you realize he is just going to take advantage of you, it’s another not to do his socks because you experience sheer terror at the thought.
In the first, you can switch to washing the guy’s socks, if that’s what the strategy calls for.
For Anne? Even if it WERE good strategy, she would be gripped by total terror and wouldn’t be able to wash those socks.
That’s my fear with Anne. Needs to work on Inner Game.
@Underdog
No obsession with sex. I’m deriding an obsession…read my comment again.
@Rollo
Yeah, I do think guys who do any of those things solely to get women into bed is pretty weak. Take no. 1 for example, “climbing the corporate ladder” (which is synonymous with no 3 in a lot of ways). The vast majority of my friends work in very high-paying (banker, lawyer, consulting, medical) jobs, and are extremely good at them. Most of them are also pretty good at picking up women. I cannot recall one instance of a friend of mine using their employment status or income to try and get a woman into bed. They do it because THEY want to, not because it will help them get laid. In fact, the only time I remember it is when my friend who’s a trader at Goldman used it when he was miserable at hipster bar in Brooklyn. He used it to get the girls to STOP talking to him (hipsters don’t think too highly of finance).
And @what Ian said, +1. Affected confidence and swagger is exactly that. It’s fake. Two of the biggest players I know curl into the fetal position if they are ever confronted in a strong way by another guy. One of them is so insecure that he won’t go get money from the ATM without someone going with him (and man, the meltdowns he has when people make fun of him for hooking up with the occasional fatty…). I also have friends who are naturally confident, dominant, and not pussies in every situation. I draw a distinction, you seem not to.
@ADBG: He needs to fix his mindset before he can even think about fixing his strategy.
Me: This is what I was thinking as well as per post 174….and Susan, as well, of course, in her original response….
I see how you survived the bars, without AMOG braggadocio. The cowboys may respond to compliments, side-steps, and pats on the back, but I do not. You’re not disarming anger, you’re the subject of accurate, low opinion. Objectively, mathematically, whatever misfortune befalls you makes the world a better place, I will root for it, with clear conscience, until you display a valuable trait.
It’s great to see the Zach post above mine contrast with the PVW post.
These player guys that crumble into bawling wrecks have learned the ways to seduce women without actually fixing their mindsets and are walking time-bombs.
Anne is also a walking time-bomb, as far as I can tell, which is why she can have sex with a man she barely knows yet not be able to make him coffee. Based on what I am reading, Susan thinks that Anne just has a strategy problem.
IMO, Anne has an inner game problem. Which isn’t surprising, she’s 22 and that one guy tore her to pieces.
Teaching her strategies and Girl Game is going to render her very vulnerable while giving the illusion of success.
@ADBG 226–what are the numbers of the posts?
Which ones? Zach was 223, yours was 224
@ADBG, thanks!
ADBG “Teaching her strategies and Girl Game is going to render her very vulnerable while giving the illusion of success.”
I don’t quite understand this. If she gave up being aloof when she actually likes a guy, tells the truth about how she feels and gives more emotional escalation, then she would actually have “success” insofar as she would be with the guy she likes. How is that an illusion? Or do you mean that she might get used by a player, who doesn’t actually want her for more than a notch? Isn’t she hot enough that if she were also feminine and has “girl game,” she would be seen as girlfriend material by even top guys?
Definite Beta,
Your analysis makes sense. I also get the impression that Anne was “punishing” the new guy for the way that the previous guy had treated her. She should probably recover from the last breakup before getting involved with a new guy.
@Zach
No obsession with sex, and yet you’re on a site called Hooking Up Smart deriding guys who have learned how to hook up smart. Hmm….
And your trader friend, just like the rockstar or the pro athlete, is doing what he does in order to raise status and accumulate wealth/security — something that will ultimately gain him access to higher value members of the opposite sex. To think of any other reason for it is to be in denial.
@Ian
“The cowboys may respond to compliments, side-steps, and pats on the back, but I do not.”
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png
“You’re not disarming anger”
Are you really angry? At someone you think is a piece of shit? On the INTERNET? lol
“I will root for it, with clear conscience, until you display a valuable trait.”
What if I wash your socks for you?
@A Definite Beta Guy
“These player guys that crumble into bawling wrecks”
lol are these also the same player guys who cry themselves to sleep at night when they kick out their one-night stand bar slut, because their lives are so empty and meaningless and they know they have a hole in their soul? I enjoy these cartoon character versions of us you guys come up with.
Hope, she may succeed in getting into a relationship with a guy, but that’s not the same as being happy with herself, or being mentally stable.
That’s what I mean.
Also, if your inner core isn’t working, I doubt you can fully implement all of the strategies that need to be implemented in the first place. A girl who isn’t comfortable with emotional escalation, who then tries to emotionally escalate, might succeed in getting the guy, but it might burn her out, or it might come across as fake to a guy, or she might think to herself “blah, what kind of guy would actually fall for this.”
“Killer Joe” – WOW
a twisted version of Cinderella / Snow White, they say?
hmmm
lots of twisted, that’s for sure. great film for da menz. not sure the ‘fair sex’, though.
Hmmm…..definitely some anti-PUA hate here. Even when you disagree with what they do, it doesn’t mean you have to disagree with what the tactics or knowledge is (evo psy).
I’m more disturbed by the notion Susan implies that the PUA’s are mentally damaged because they learned how to attract women after a bad experience with women. (such as being friendzoned). Why would they be mentally damaged but a girl damaged by a cad (Anne) is cheerlead into doing better?
In other words, personal transformations come about through hardship, to imply that hardship means PUA’s are mentally unbalanced is false.
@ADBG & Susan
“IMO, Anne has an inner game problem. Which isn’t surprising, she’s 22 and that one guy tore her to pieces.
Teaching her strategies and Girl Game is going to render her very vulnerable while giving the illusion of success.”
I agree. Susan, remember in a previous thread where I suggested that people of both genders learn to game from the inside out? This is what I was talking about. Anne looks to have rolled along doing what she does until she ran into someone who appears unwilling to play the game she was asking him to play. More strategy is the typical answer, but like ADBG, I don’t think that will be the answer in the long run. A look inward will make anything she learns from this point more effective because it will come from the right place- it’ll be authentic, and she won’t encounter a shock when she runs into someone who, from the looks of it, has himself handled, because she’ll have herself handled.
@Mikey
“In other words, personal transformations come about through hardship, to imply that hardship means PUA’s are mentally unbalanced is false.”
We sure are getting shit on around here just for having a different view. And not even a WRONG view, as a number of posters including yourself have mentioned, we’re just pointing out what’s right there for anyone to see…it’s just something that makes everyone feel “squicky” lol
Shoot the messenger much?
@Underdog
“shmeminine shmimperative.”
lol’ed.
Still waiting on that logical fact-filled rebuttal to the observation that you’ve just proved Game works on hot high-quality girls by telling an HB9 to go “crawling on her hands and knees” to a guy (knowingly or unknowingly) running Dread Game, Sue.
I like how the guys are equating “self-respect” with “Dread Game.”
Meh, it’s almost Christmas. Need to write more envelopes.
Your reading comprehension skills are lacking.
First, Stephen took her out to dinner and walked her home without escalating at all on several occasions. It was precisely this behavior, along with his personality, that had her thinking of him as a potential husband and father. Had he acted alpha from the get go, she would have nexted him. While she was away, he texted and checked in regularly. He has also texted and called frequently, and has openly told her on many occasions how much he likes her and how lucky he feels.
Second, I am pro-Game. Stephen sounds like a natural, someone with self-respect who has no plans to be a doormat. I give him credit and of course am not surprised that the threat of his removing his affection has Anne alarmed. To the extent that he is demonstrating self-respect, it is not with the intention of provoking anxiety, but rather of removing himself from a relationship where her interest seems to have waned. It’s perfectly reasonable behavior on his part – not the manipulative nonsense of spinning plates, two in the kitty, etc.
Game emulates real, natural dominance by providing codified behavioral correlates. As far as we know, as a beta with self-respect, Stephen has no need for Game.
Seriously, it’s like people only respond here if game principles sounds nice and acceptable. Hope, Dead Game simply is reminding the person who acted up that you have other options, when Anne acted like a brat she needed to be reminded he wouldn’t take it and went silent. But since it’s called Dread Game and you don’t like that name, you’re opposed.
I’ll leave it to the PUA’s to rename everything to acceptable terms “Sunshine Happy Tulip Game” then maybe the principles themselves can finally be discussed.
@Brohamlet:
A look inward will make anything she learns from this point more effective because it will come from the right place- it’ll be authentic, and she won’t encounter a shock when she runs into someone who, from the looks of it, has himself handled, because she’ll have herself handled.
Me: As part of that look inward, some of the basics, that being in a serious adult relationship is not for the immature and childish.
Or…those who seem to have problems realizing that their partner might have needs and interests which have to be worked through and negotiated, ie., empathy and consideration just might be necessary, as well as a dose of humility to remove any entitlement mentalities. In other words, it isn’t always about you and only you. It is about a give and take, not one side always taking, taking, taking with no sense of appreciation, gratitude and willingness to sacrifice for the greater good, and that can include for the benefit of one’s partner. All of this ony happens through the development of true intimacy and trust; these are to be worked at and develop over time; it won’t come in the midst of serious attitude problems and through the illusion of superficial intimacy.
I can probably go on, but that is a beginning, as I think about my marriage and the marriages of those around me.
Had to delete yareally. If he would stick to debating the point at hand and not proselytize his wasted lifestyle, I’d let it stand. But no way is HUS going to be a springboard for that shit.
It’s actually moronic that this post about Anne’s relationship is even generating discussion about PUAs. Thanks to Rollo for highjacking the thread by mentioning Kreepy Krauser.
Rollo, Yareallypua and Hollenhund in one thread. How many brain cells have been sacrificed? How many readers have fled the bizarro comments of these middle aged prurient men?
pvw #240, I agree completely. But it’s never too early to start learning those things! Age is not a barrier to empathy and respect.
Susan, lol.
@Hope: Age is not a barrier to empathy and respect
Me: Thanks; I forgot to add the word respect, but all that I wrote implies it….
Sales 101: you talk in the language of your customer.
An effective communicator translates his ideas into the idiom of the person listening. It actually makes PERFECT sense that communication meant to open the eyeballs of men who for one reason or another have poor social skills and can’t get it together with women ….wouldn’t translate well when put directly to people who are not the intended audience (women). The difference in rhetorical style says *nothing* about the quality of the idea itself.
So yes, “dread game” and “I’ve got too much self-respect to put up with puerile manipulative shit” can in fact be synonymous without diminishing parties simply because they prefer one phrase to the other.
Sadly, based on follow-up questions, I’d be surprised if Anne were able to learn *anything* from what she’s read. She’s simply not a keeper at this point.
@Jason
I know of one relationship where this was such a problem it eventually failed. The girl is a 8-9, the guy is a 6 at best. She fell hard for him, though, and was careful not to flirt or even acknowledge other guys. It didn’t matter, everywhere they went, guys remarked on it. Sometimes they’d ask him, “Who is that?” When he said, “My girlfriend” they said, “Yeah, right.” Another time she and her bf were having a disagreement about something outside on the sidewalk, and a guy walked up to her and said, “You are so hot, it is ridiculous that you put up with any shit from this loser.” It was truly doomed, and no amount of reassurance helped. Her bf would wind up yelling, “I don’t give a fuck!” In the end, he told her that he wished it didn’t bother him, but it did, and he couldn’t do it anymore. He actually broke her heart.
I read yareally’s first post but ignored the rest.
Susan, your post #238 is spot on.
I texted him this afternoon (from your advice), saying sorry for flaky behaviour, telling him I was going home. I got a reply, saying he was back home too, in order to attend a funeral, that he’d love to see me, and asking how I was and asking about an infection I had a while ago. He’s back for Christmas too and he told me his plans the next three days so we can get together back here (we’re from the same city).
@Underdog
There was no dread Game here, as it was not Stephen’s intent to provoke anxiety, as far as I know. I believe, as I said in the post, that he simply concluded she didn’t like him much and moved on. Dread Game involves all kinds of fakery – calling your gf while getting other women to laugh loudly in the background, that sort of thing. And it usually aims to get the woman jealous of your other options, which are generally manufactured for the purpose. Stephen didn’t engage in manipulative tactics at all.
But he’s not a player and he doesn’t run Game. He’s just a man behaving intelligently as he honestly weighs his options. Anne gave him little to go on, flaked and acted bitchy, so he moved on. No tactics.
“Rollo, Yareallypua and Hollenhund in one thread. How many brain cells have been sacrificed? How many readers have fled the bizarro comments of these middle aged prurient men?”
That’s their problem. I know your female readers simply cannot handle much, so I specifically avoided using swear words, derogatory phrases, ad hominem arguments and whatnot. If some woman is still offended, what the hell is she doing reading the comments section of a blog? She should turn off the computer and read some women’s mag, lest she become offended by anything around her.
Really? I have no problem sympathizing with people both better looking and better off than myself. Neither of those things guarantees happiness or contentment. I feel very sorry for some of the best looking, wealthiest people I know.
@Susan:
“Rollo, Yareallypua and Hollenhund in one thread. How many brain cells have been sacrificed? How many readers have fled the bizarro comments of these middle aged prurient men?”
I take it that this is the normal response of your Dear HUS letters.
It’s like anti-advertising.
Back to Anne, I don’t think this guy is purposely running game to get her back. Most likely, he’s simply nexting her. If he’s a player type, then he’s already got the ass. If he’s a dad type, then he’s most likely realized by now that Anne’s too emotionally unstable to be a mom.
I’d advise Anne to move on and take some time off for introspection.
@Senior Beta
As I said earlier, I found her email interesting. It’s not every day I get an email from Sandro Botticelli’s Venus. I’ve written before about the plight of female 9s and 10s in this SMP. Beautiful people need love too!
There a lot of envy, a lot of schadenfreude, a lot of smallness as people celebrate the misery of someone more fortunate than themselves. I don’t relate to that.
I find Anne’s case interesting based on the male-female dynamics alone, and I saw the potential to provide Anne with a reality check, which she badly needed.
Sandro Botticelli’s Venus wouldn’t count as a 9 today. Standards have changed, especially those of the top men.
Nvm, just read Anne’s latest comment. Ignore my previous post then. And congrats.
@Russ
Oof, you’re a week too late on that one.
It’s a hostile takeover. They’re about as welcome as ebola virus.
The interpretation of Stephen’s behavior as running Dread Game is silly. Go read Roissy’s post on Dread Game. Stephen is batting zero on his list of tactics. Dread Game is about manipulating someone into believing – falsely – that you have other women who want you. This misapplication of a Game principle leaves me no choice but to conclude that yareally pua and Rollo are stupid. No surprise in the first case, I’m a bit surprised in the second.
I cannot believe you just compared being a PUA to being a doctor. lololololoolololzzzzz
Being a productive member of society and living a life of purpose can take many forms. Here are some pastimes that do not make the grade:
PUA
Opium den regular
Prostitute
Drug dealer
Alcoholic
Sugar Daddy
Stoner
Bridezilla
Shopaholic
Self-indulgent parasites, all.
“It’s a hostile takeover. They’re about as welcome as ebola virus.”
This attitude’d be warranted if your blog were about cooking, gardening, knitting or sharing baby pictures or whatever. But it’s not. It’s about the current SMP, and one group among many that can provide insight, no matter how amoral or unethical you think it is, are PUAs. It’s just a way it is. If I start a blog about cars and a bunch of mechanics show up and comment, is it “hostile takeover”? Lulz.
Besides, there’s no “takeover”. Nobody is trying to take over your blog or destroy it. You’re becoming way too paranoid. You’re not a martyr for some heroic cause.
LMAO, that’s hilarious. That needs to be a scene in Girls.
I acknowledge in the post that Anne needs to be more communicative about her own emotional state. Obviously, she is a bit wary and with good reason. It may be that the timing just isn’t right – she’s clearly still deeply affected by her experience with the cad.
She also needs to wise up to SMP dynamics. High value guys are not going to jump through hoops. She is very young, still in school, figuring it out as she goes. This will have been a learning experience for her, whatever happens.
@Underdog
Are you laboring under the misimpression that HUS is a blog for men to figure out how to get laid? In a nutshell, here’s what Hooking Up Smart means:
NSBM: No sex before monogamy
“Being a productive member of society and living a life of purpose can take many forms.”
That’s beside the point. One can be a PUA who’s “extremely competent at understanding something and using that understanding to achieve a goal”. Doesn’t matter if he’s society’s pack mule or not. What’s this talk of “parasites” anyway? Are inner city single moms and their future criminal thugspawn included on that list?
If Anne dedicated her life to getting commitment from low quality guys just for sport, I’d say the same thing to her.
As for PUAs being mentally damaged, I can’t speak for all of them, but the ones on this thread show clear signs of sociopathy, narcissism and Machiavellianism.
By anyone’s standards (except these Dark Triad guys, of course) that equals personality disorder.
In the land of the blind…the trash dick is king.
@BroHamlet
Honestly, I think it’s a bit over the top to start diagnosing Anne with not having her shit together. She wrote for strategic advice, I gave it. I’m not her therapist. I included some reality checks around what’s fair, what this might look like from his POV, and how she might effect a meeting.
“Being a productive member of society and living a life of purpose can take many forms. Here are some pastimes that do not make the grade:
PUA
Opium den regular
Prostitute
Drug dealer
Alcoholic
Sugar Daddy
Stoner
Bridezilla
Shopaholic
Self-indulgent parasites, all.”
This made me think of Bioshock, everybody’s favorite Ayn Randish dyspotian computer game.
“Transcript: What is the difference between a man and a parasite? A man builds. A parasite asks “Where is my share?” A man creates. A parasite says, “What will the neighbors think?” A man invents. A parasite says, “Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God…”
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/A_Man_or_a_Parasite
@Mikey
First of all, Dread Game is preventative – it is not solely used when women have “acted up” or “acted like a brat.” Rollo uses Dread Game on his faithful wife by flirting with other women in front of her to make her jealous and anxious. No doubt she sleeps with one eye open.
Second, Stephen did nothing to imply he has options. My guess is he went to the party on Saturday alone. He may have options, probably does. For that reason, he had no need to explicitly say so.
@Mikey
Make no mistake. I support Game as it serves to help guys who want relationships get them. Game increases the number of attractive men, and I’m all for that. I do not support the use of Game for P&D’ing. You are at the wrong blog for that.
@ Underdog, as you can see I wrote a response. He wants to see me again, I suppose I will find out more later.
Some fictional background for the fictional author of that parasite quote:
“Andrew Ryan was born Andrei Rianofski[1] in a village near Minsk in Russia (modern Belarus), during the time when the Tsar still held autocratic rule over the country. In 1917 he witnessed the Russian Revolution which catapulted the Bolshevik Party into power.[2] Ryan’s experiences under Soviet rule led him to his personal philosophy: the modern world was created by great men who strove to make their own way. Anytime “parasites” gained control of such a world, they destroyed it (as the Soviets did “trading one lie for another,” the autocratic rule of the Tsar for the repressions of Bolshevism). In 1919 he anglicized his name to Andrew Ryan and fled Russia to go to America, believing it to be a place where a great man could prosper.[3]
For a time, he was devoted to his adopted country, grateful for the wealth and fame it awarded his intellect and determination. However, the state social programs adopted in the 30s increasingly tested that devotion. His experiences in the “worker’s paradise” made Ryan despise the ideals of Socialism, believing that those who benefited from others were “parasites” (e.g. he considered Roosevelt and his “New Dealers” to be the ones “spoon-feeding” Americans on the “Bolshevik Poison”). In his mind, one could only own what one earned. For instance, he once owned a large forest as a personal retreat, one that many groups envied (one group told him that it “belonged to God,” demanding that he establish a public park there). When the government attempted to nationalize it as parkland, Ryan’s response was to burn it to the ground so no one could have it.[4]
The final straw for Ryan was the destruction of Hiroshima with the atomic bomb.[5] In his eyes, the bomb was the ultimate corruption of his ideals — science and determination harnessed for destruction, creating a weapon that gave the “parasites” the ability to destroy anything that they could not seize. ”
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Andrew_Ryan
@Anna,
Congratulations. Honestly. Based on what I’d read from your follow-ups, I didn’t think you had it in you. Very happy to be Random Stranger Proven Wrong.
@Susan,
As an old fart I once knew said, “never do a man a small wrong.”
Not a PUA (yuck), but I cop to a *serious* case of the Macchiavelli’s… in the absence of positive pressure I am an ice-hearted son of a bitch who will eventually show up on CNN: it runs in my family and has to be kept on a tight leash at all times. Difference is that SOME of us know this isn’t something to be proud of. I’m lucky: not everybody in my shoes has somebody like my wife in her life.
1. If that’s Roissy’s definition of “dread game,” then I stand corrected. I’d understood it as instilling fear that a given bad behavior means end-of-relationship (which is pretty common sense).
2. Can you sell me a vowel on this one?
“@Russ
Easy test for women: how do you feel about washing his socks?
Oof, you’re a week too late on that one.”
“@ Underdog, as you can see I wrote a response. He wants to see me again, I suppose I will find out more later.”
And another relationship crisis solved by the crack team of HUS commenteers!
Maybe.
I suppose this a follow-up is required.
Since this is the holiday season, why don’t we say three weeks?
Does that work for everyone?
How about checking back in, say,
“Rollo uses Dread Game on his faithful wife by flirting with other women in front of her to make her jealous and anxious. No doubt she sleeps with one eye open.”
In the words of the Great Turqsidian Muse, “that is fucked up.”
@Anne
Hallelujah! I am so happy for you! It sounds like he welcomed your reaching out, and has no interest in punishing you or playing any games. Well done. So, the takeaway is…emote. Open yourself up, take the risk. There are no guarantees you won’t be hurt again as you were last summer, but he sounds like a good man – you are not likely to be treated with carelessness or duplicity. Shake off your misgivings about the cad and focus on the dad right in front of you.
Think of ways to express that you care. Do those feminine, nurturing things that feel a bit unnatural right now. In other words, your job is to escalate emotionally with Stephen. You’ve been given another chance, don’t blow it!
I hope you’ll circle back and let us know how it goes! In the meantime, have a lovely Christmas!
@Susan
” it was not Stephen’s intent to provoke anxiety… Dread Game involves all kinds of fakery… Stephen didn’t engage in manipulative tactics at all.”
Courtship ALWAYS involve fakery and manipulation — unless Anne is the type of girl who doesn’t wear make up, high heels, or fix her hair.
What if Stephen wanted Anne to be his gf but knew that pursuing her would make her lose attraction but freezing her out / giving her anxiety would spike her attraction level? Would you call that fakery and manipulation? I think your problem with dread game lies more with intent than tactics.
And yes, freezing a girl out is dread game, much like shutting your phone off for a day is dread game, much like calling a girl while you’re in a bar is dread game. All of them give the effect of you having options, which causes her to feel jealous and anxious.
“NSBM: No sex before monogamy”
So this blog is for men who want to toil in the friend zone?
@HH
That’s actually really sweet. I don’t know, HH, I think there’s a softie somewhere in there.
For the record, the sensitivity of my readers has been greatly exaggerated. I don’t think it’s a question of what they can handle, I think it’s a question of why spend your time with a bunch of bitchy men online.
@JP
It’s not! I have no idea why these guys descended on this post. None of them is a regular here, and it’s not like I’ve said anything controversial. Weird.
“As for PUAs being mentally damaged, I can’t speak for all of them, but the ones on this thread show clear signs of sociopathy, narcissism and Machiavellianism.”
That’s not “mentally damaged”, unless you are talking about a clear-cut kill the puppies for fun kind of person. (Which is what happened to one guy I knew in college who snapped. I think he was smashing kittens into walls or something. One of the most bizarre stories I ever heard.)
That’s spiritually damaged, which is a horse of a different color. Like I said, it’s a cesspool radiating despair and discord.
@Susan:
I thought you said that you discotinued the Letters because of the incoming artillery fire like you got today.
Roissy’s definition of dread game:
“Instilling the dread of an impending breakup or loss of interest to promote a healthy relationship.”
Fits what this Stephen guy did to a T.
WHAT?????
No doubt you prefer the “updated” version on the right:
@Hollenhund
How can PUAs provide insight to my readers?
Susan – “I think it’s a question of why spend your time with a bunch of bitchy men online?”
Because we have milk and cookies?
Sure, if they’re not contributing anything to society. It’s not that lofty a goal – one can work hard digging ditches and make the world a better place. It’s the indulgence of base appetites that I detest. An inner city single mom who works hard to provide for her children and tries to get them into a decent school is OK in my book.
What will yareallypua leave behind when his wet dick has been eaten by worms?
These ten words explain my POV perfectly.
“How can PUAs provide insight to my readers?”
Who else is going to do so? Other women, who only confirm each other’s emotions for each other? Tradcons? Feminists? The Man Up Brigade?
@Russ
From Roissy’s Dread Post:
Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you.
Examples of effective doom inducement:
Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days.
Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around.
Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background.
Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it.
Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue.
Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards.
Ignore her calls for a week.
Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity.
Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. I
Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it… Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/dread/
I truly pity the poor bastards who take this stuff to heart.
LOL, I promise to report back if I get a follow up.
@JP
Yeah, it was a problem. Not everyone was hard on Anne, but in general, these letters bring guys out of the woodwork to complain about women. There was one poor woman named Casey – I’ll never forget it. Her letter so inflamed the guys that one blogger ran off and wrote a post denouncing her.
I really like to keep things positive, you know? I was pretty hard on Anne. I spoke to her like I would speak to a young woman I know well (which is why I told her that). I told her she’d been acting like a spoiled brat, in fact. I give her a lot of credit for absorbing that feedback and turning it around.
I don’t know if my advice was good or not, but hey, she’s got another date lined up. Now it’s up to her.
There are about 60 male “regulars” here, and none of them fits that description. I feel confident that my female readers are getting good and useful information from them. They’re better than I am – I do what I can in the posts, but am happy to pass the baton to both men and women in the comment threads. Increasingly, I see myself as a conduit between the readers and the commenters.
I didn’t mean you Sweet Ted. I’m referring to the Dark Lords of the sphere. Boo.
@HH: That’s not an answer. That’s not even a thesis.
@Susan#282,
Holy shit. Yeah, stand corrected. I don’t have enough palms for the facepalms that requires.
@Russ
No problem. A belated welcome to HUS, you’ve left some good comments. I’m always happy to have new commenters, and those who admit they’re still learning (aren’t we all?) are particularly welcome!
@Marellus
Bah, not sure why you were caught in mod. Links, I think. Sorry.
@Hope
” I like how the guys are equating “self-respect” with “Dread Game.””
This should speak volumes to the women about how men were raised.
What the ladies are defining as self-respect men are defining as evil/dread inducing.
@yareally
Yes, many women (and some men) love drama.
@OffTheCuff
Because I am a sympathetic and empathetic kind of guy at heart. Now if they are mean bitches then they lose my concern real fast.
Now, I don’t have THAT much sympathy for 9′s and 10′s because they still do have so many options. The 10 can probably find a male 9 who will be faithful if she screens for character. The 9 can go for the male 8.
I also care about the delta (average) guys and the schlubs, like Sam on Game of Thrones.
“Now, I don’t have THAT much sympathy for 9′s and 10′s because they still do have so many options. The 10 can probably find a male 9 who will be faithful if she screens for character. The 9 can go for the male 8.”
I wonder how many of the 9′s and 10′s go horribly wrong, life wise.
It’s kind of like having a massive “please hit on me” target on their back for a large portion of their lives.
@HH
“Sandro Botticelli’s Venus wouldn’t count as a 9 today. Standards have changed, especially those of the top men.”
Ehhhhh?
I guess you aren’t yanking our chains. What would she count as today?
And that “have an affair and make sure she finds out” is actually a tactic. Trotsky’s balls, I’d rather be alone. SMH
It’s actually moronic that this post about Anne’s relationship is even generating discussion about PUAs.
It’s actually entirely predictible that this post about Anne’s relationship is even generating discussion about PUAs.
A pretty girl got a comeuppance; let the fapping begin.
HH: “Sandro Botticelli’s Venus wouldn’t count as a 9 today. Standards have changed, especially those of the top men.”
Sai: “Ehhhhh? I guess you aren’t yanking our chains. What would she count as today?”
HH and the some of the other denizens of the ‘sphere have rather exacting standards for women. I’m certain that even the goddess of love would need to work hard to match their values in the SMP.
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