I rarely post two letters from readers back to back, but I received an email today that is both time-sensitive and potentially instructive to readers.
I’ll begin with a confession. The real name of the writer is very unusual, and after reading her letter I had a hunch I wanted to confirm. Sure enough, she is indexed in Google images thanks to social media profiles. It is as I suspected. She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day. I don’t mean to objectify her, but I think she falls victim to a mentality that is common among beautiful women. It may sound counterintuitive, but beautiful women often have to make a special effort to land a good man, initiating intimacy, providing encouragement and offering reassurance along the way.
My advice would be the same in any case, but her looks are undoubtedly a factor in the dynamic between them.
Dear Susan,
Hi, your blog always gives such insightful advice on relationship issues, and I would love some right now because I’m in a difficult position with the first man I’ve liked in a long time. I’m 22, he’s 25.
I’ve been dating him for around two months now. I ended things with a guy this summer and was deeply depressed for a while, which is why I didn’t want to get emotionally attached too soon. There was a bit of imbalance – he took me out to nice dinners, walked me home, didn’t even make a move. When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.
I haven’t seen him in person for around 3 weeks. It’s sometimes been difficult matching our schedules (he’s working, I’m a student), and I have been travelling the past week. He said he wanted to take me to a lovely dinner the night I came back from an overseas trip. I was jetlagged when back and had a heavy lunch so I suggested a drink instead, and he accepted. I dozed off, got back to him a couple of hours later and said we could meet 45 mins later at which point it would be 10.45. He said it would be “a little too late” because he had to get up early for work, but we could meet the next day. I was pissed – that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me, he hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks, what guy says no to that because he’d get six hours rather than eight? I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.
So when I was out Thursday night I texted him (very late, early hours) asking if he was out too. For a weekday, I figured he might have been in bed. I got a reply the next morning. Friendly, as usual, but he hasn’t initiated anything since.
Worst part – Saturday night was a party hosted by a friend of his – an all night dinner and drinks. He asked me about a month ago and even convinced me to stay in town a far more days to attend. Come Saturday, I heard nothing. I’m just assuming he went to the party without me. I suppose most girls would text and go “what’s going on with that party??”. But I always assume a defensive position towards men – I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs. Plus, I did make an “initiative” Thursday night by texting first.
I was angry and in my irrational rage, I figured this was “finished from my side”, deleted him off facebook and deleted our text message history. That was yesterday, I assume he’s seen it by now, but he hasn’t said anything. I am twisting in agony trying to figure what the reason for his silence might have been… Whether someone said something about me. I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous, and I don’t think there is anything awful that may surface.
So as you can see I’m going out of my mind. I like the guy, and I know I acted irrationally when deleting him. But his behaviour was really schizo – he was all over me and seemed so genuinely interested, and then shut down on Saturday. I feel like it would be stupid to contact him now, it will seem as if deleting him was a provocation and now I’m “giving in”? I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand. Should I just wait it out?
Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him?
An ex boyfriend accused me of always causing unnecessary drama. If that seems the case, please let me know.
Anne
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you’re a regular reader, in which case you’ve seen my posts about avoiding players, and also my posts about the need for a woman to escalate emotionally when a man does get through her filter and she wants to be in a committed relationship with him.
I’m going to cut straight to the chase here.
You have been employing the Principle of Least Interest with such success that you convinced Stephen you are not interested in him. To be fair, you describe yourself as having been hurt fairly recently and feeling somewhat self-protective. It’s hard to escalate emotionally while deliberately delaying intimacy. Being introverted and not emotionally expressive makes this more challenging as well.
It sounds like Stephen was happy to go all out in pursuing you, putting in most of the effort. You already have a sense that you did not give him the reinforcement that would have helped to seal the deal early on, as you mention having regrets about remaining aloof, even after sex. However, I see some poor judgment calls here on your part within the last week or so that I don’t believe you fully recognize. At the risk of being very hard on you, I’m going to highlight them in hopes that you can learn from this experience, whether things work out with Stephen or not.
You did not act eager to reunite with him when you returned from Miami.
I understand that you were jet lagged, and I’m sure he did too. You might have rescheduled, explaining that you were dying to see him but wanted to be at your best. You could also have mentioned that you simply could not function without a couple of hours sleep, would he be amenable to a late drink?
Instead it sounds like you dismissed his plan because you were not particularly hungry (bad call) and then left him waiting and wondering until 10 p.m. That was not very considerate of his time, and it may have played a role in his declining at that point. Or he may have calculated that you would both have a much better time with less pressure by doing it the next day instead. Maybe he wanted to enjoy your company for an evening instead of racing home from the bar to have sex before an early alarm.
You felt rejected, so you punished him.
If a man is rejecting you, punishing him for doing so is not a good strategy for exciting his interest. Had you agreed to the next night, you would likely have had a passionate reunion. Instead, you told him you did not want to see him. His response that you should let him know indicates hurt feelings and hurt pride.
You sought to increase your control over him.
After turning him down, and without letting him know when you were available to see him, and how much you wanted to see him, you texted him while out late on a work night. This served to remind him that you are a carefree student who can be out and about getting attention from other men while he is required to get his sleep before another grueling day at the office. I imagine he woke in the morning, felt peeved, and his resentment grew throughout the day.
Note that you have still not texted to “let him know when you could see him.” You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.
You stubbornly waited for him to break.
You entered into a pissing match over who would blink first. It should have been you! Why do you always assume a defensive posture with men? Why are they required to do all the work? You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
Deleting him from facebook probably signalled to him that you have zero interest in him whatsoever, and want all reminders of your association gone.
In short, I don’t think his behavior has been schizo or the least bit unreasonable. I think you’ve been acting like a bit of a spoiled brat. (I say this with a maternal affection.) I don’t know whether this is salvageable, but if you really look at Stephen and see a potential father for your children, here is what I suggest you do:
Go crawling to him on your hands and knees.
Stephen,
I regret the way things have been between us for the last week. I accept responsibility for doing a very poor job of letting you know how much I wanted to see you upon my return. I have enjoyed our time together very much and I’d like to set things right. Are you free tomorrow night? Would you like to come over for a drink and we can talk about it?
Missing you,
Anne
If he is kind but says no, you’ll have time for soul searching. If he is a jerk and really was playing you in some way, he’ll be rude and unresponsive, in which case you just got rid of a bad guy. If he says yes, you’re back in the game. Respond graciously no matter what.
No more silent treatment, it’s time to make a little drama here (the good kind – as in, a dramatic gesture to surprise and delight him).
{ 1518 comments… read them below or add one }
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“I can’t recall ever “negotiating” a “best deal”.
I was either in a relationship or not in a relationship.”
This is what I was going to say. You bargain only once you’re in a long term relationship and things get dangerously into a monotonous habit or an increasingly confrontational one. You never bargain at the begining, unless you both are cold pragmatical partners viewing relationships as something which is discussed like the way you discuss the price of a carpet with the vendor in an Istambul bazaar.. Well, quite a few people are like that.
@BroHam
“Absolutely. In fact, we learned a whole lot more about her, and what happens when someone who plays games (whether by necessity or just a bit of caprice in this case) runs into someone who is immune to them.”
+1
I’m specifically not offering advice to Anne because I feel that doing so would be harmful for Stephen.
The Facebook deletion was too childish for someone who wants a relationship.
This is one of those rare instances where I feel that Susan is helping the predator.
@ Russ
Not so ironic. In Real Life, there are a few girls (and guys) that would think me closer to Rollo than Cooper.
Of course, that’s because, IRL, everything is straight-up blue pill, and normal teasing makes me the “biggest jerk in the world.”
That sort of brings me back to my point. I didn’t survey people here at HUS, which I consider one of the few Sane places in the world. I asked girls who have no idea what Red Pill or Susan Walsh even are.
@deti
Well, you’re a well known and highly opinionated character in the sphere, you can hardly be surprised just because you haven’t commented.
As for your not being a knowledgeable and reliable source of information pertinent to young women, I’m not saying anything I haven’t said to your face numerous time. I think your views are seriously warped by the places you choose to do your
brainwashinglearning.@deti
Hmmm, I do recall saying the former, but not really the latter…
I appreciate your debating style, which I think is productive and positive. I do not believe that my readers can learn a lot from you, to be honest, and I said as much in highlighting your own comments on the matter at Alpha Game.
I think you are well qualified to speak on your personal experience. I do not find you credible in the areas of female nature and sexuality or the behavioral norms of college students. I also believe, and have often stated, that you appear to have derived a set of beliefs that sits on sand – e.g. alpha widow, carousel “watchers,” inability of women to bond with husband if not a virgin, and inability of women to find betas attractive.
None of this is new or surprising. I don’t really understand your taking offense.
DV – “Ted, one thing I never quite get in your (and others’ here) logic, is why the girl would want to play games once she’s with you, and why staying with her if that’s the case. A girl who keeps pulling self defense tricks once you have a relationship is because she’s still way too insecure as well as simply NOT ENOUGH INTO YOU, period.”
I agree. But, if you find yourself married to a woman that is “not enough into you” (as I and many other men have), your choices are: divorce or game. Had I known about game before my divorce, I would have given it my best shot, because *I* took my vows seriously. My ex? Not so much I suppose, since instead of trying to work things out decided she needed to “find herself”. Some people never give up “playing games”, and although we can agree that it is rather immature, it doesn’t change the fact. In many cases, a guy can turn around a “not enough into you” situation with a woman IF he wants to and IF he knows how, which is where game comes into marriage. (and where Athol makes a decent living I might add…)
”You never bargain at the begining, unless you both are cold pragmatical partners viewing relationships as something which is discussed like the way you discuss the price of a carpet with the vendor in an Istambul bazaar.. Well, quite a few people are like that.”
Your last sentence pretty much sums it up to me. Many, many people ARE indeed like that. Many look at relationships from the “what’s in it for me” attitude, and those folks are almost always looking for the best “deal” they can get.
I did not mean this literally. I mean that from a behavioral economics POV, we all strike deals when we enter relationships, in that we have done some sort of cost/benefit analysis and deemed the idea a good one. Every time you choose one woman over another you are doing this. Every time you agree to monogamy you are weighing the pros and cons.
The only good deals are the ones where both parties are pleased with the outcome.
@Susan:
” I mean that from a behavioral economics POV, we all strike deals when we enter relationships, in that we have done some sort of cost/benefit analysis and deemed the idea a good one.”
Uh, yeah. Do I have a romantic interest in her and does she have a romantic interest in me? I had one failed LTR attempt where at least I was willing to give it a go after talking myself into it over a period of time and one marriage. That’s about it.
“Every time you choose one woman over another you are doing this.”
There’s only ever been one person who I’ve been interested in dating at any one time, so not really. Generally, this happened about once every 12 months if I was lucky. Normally I was interested in the same person for about 12 to 24 months and usually was unable to connect.
“Every time you agree to monogamy you are weighing the pros and cons.”
It never even occurred to me that non-monogamy was a option. Kind of like “should I go rob a bank”?
@ Underdog,
Manipulating others = bad
Acting from integrity = good
It’s not that hard, dude.
@ Susan:
“The only good deals are the ones where both parties are pleased with the outcome.”
I’m going to use TedD as an example since he seems to be the one who’s been solidly hit by this. (I’m the one who generally does the firing in my relationships).
His “outcome” got steadily worse every year. It was best at the beginning and then slid into the abyss.
@Ted
“But, if you find yourself married to a woman that is “not enough into you”
Sorry, but getting married to a woman that is not into you in the first place is way beyond me. You normally always sense those things, or I guess you were way to young and inexperienced when that happened, or is it something else? Social pressure, or because it’s a thing to do after college?
I thought that TedD started out fine and then she disintoed him over time.
I like that word.
Dis-into-ed.
Ted, am I mistaken? I’m not really an expert on Tedding.
Ian (154):
I have to say the ‘estrogen poisoned’ woman sounds pretty attractive. I’m imagining her periodical insanity to be roughly equivalent to ‘passionate’ or ‘highly emotional.’ Certainly nothing that is mean, manipulative, vindictive or backstabbing.
Reminds me of the quote attributed to Marilyn Monroe, which I initially thought of as ‘whoa, crazy bitch’ but eventually warmed to, thinking along the lines of ‘well, I’d put up with a bit of that for a really special girl.’
HanSolo (307):
I really don’t understand this need to rate women numerically. It doesn’t mean anything to anyone other than the rater. Does it serve to gratify losers, for lack of a better word, who use it to belittle or reduce women to a number?
It’s no more accurate a system than the words ‘ugly’, ‘decent looking’, ‘pretty’, and ‘oh my God I have to get to know this woman right now.’ At least the latter doesn’t pretend to be objective.
For myself, I only need three categories. There are women I’m not interested in having sex with, women I would have sex with, and women I would swear off other women for. (Okay, that last category is sort of made up, because I don’t really see women who make me want to become monogamous.)
@Iggles
Once again, your problem is with intent — not tactics. Read my posts again.
DV – “Sorry, but getting married to a woman that is not into you in the first place is way beyond me. You normally always sense those things, or I guess you were way to young and inexperienced when that happened, or is it something else? Social pressure, or because it’s a thing to do after college?”
In my case, all of the above? She was “into” me in the beginning, but not nearly enough. There were plenty of red flags, but I was never told what they were, and how to look for them. I was 26, she was 21, so lack of experience played a part for sure. The ‘social pressure’ came from my family, that were increasingly telling me it was ‘time to settle down’ and all that. I failed on several fronts spectacularly.
But, head over the MMSL sometime and you’ll see I am in NO WAY alone in finding myself married to a woman that is NOT “into” her husband. In my case, after I got married I took the “time to settle down” speech a bit too seriously, and started dropping outside interests to put my time into my family. I continued to knuckle under to my ex-wife’s desires because I was led to believe that was what I was supposed to do, and my giving in continued to diminish her desire to be with me to the point that she bailed. Of course it became a downward spiral since we were miserable, we both ate worse, got heavier, became more depressed, etc.
If you really want the gory details, I’ll be happy to provide them, but they aren’t relevant to the discussion. The point is, plenty of men seem to find themselves married to a woman that isn’t attracted to them, and in those situations there aren’t many options for a fix.
@betaGuy#453
Depends on the definition of “normal teasing” and where you l ive.
I abandoned the East Coast for flyover country and North Texas (back when it was relatively empty before all the economic refugees from the coasts started moving here), and one of the reasons for doing so was that the women are generally just as beautiful, but far less “indoctrinated.”
JP – “Ted, am I mistaken? I’m not really an expert on Tedding.”
LOL nope that is a fair description. Although like I said there were red flags. Just a few months prior to the wedding my ex decided having sex was somehow immoral (although we’d been doing so for months prior) and although I didn’t simply take it on the chin, I did agree to limit our sexual interactions considerably until the wedding day. She and I also had doubts the entire engagement, but we were BOTH told by our families that “its completely normal to get cold feet! You’ll be fine afterwards!” She had some daddy issues that I ignored. (because I figured it was normal for all women to have them believe it or not!)
Not long after we married, I started giving up hobbies to spend more time with her and our kids. The last straw was me giving up my last remaining friends when she told me I was spending too much time gigging and should be an adult and give up on childish stuff like playing in a rock band. (paraphrased, I can’t honestly remember exactly what she said.) I quit and with that went the last thing I did outside of work and time with the family, and it was damn near close to the beginning of the end for us. It took another five or so years for that to happen, but it was inevitable from that moment on I think.
I’d have said that the hypocrisy surrounding sex was the “moment of inevitable.”
I married a “good girl,” and waiting until married was part of the deal (a painful deal, btw, but well worth it) — that wasn’t something that sprang out of nowhere, but was something she had the integrity to make clear right at the beginning of the “if I date you (exclusively)” discussion.
We’re not 100% traditional, but we ARE both happy, and candor is a huge reason why.
@Lokland
“The Facebook deletion was too childish for someone who wants a relationship.
This is one of those rare instances where I feel that Susan is helping the predator.”
I have to say I agree to a point. Susan can’t just turn up her nose to her readers, though. Still, a lot of excuses have been made for the way she behaved (she’s “hot” etc.). The subtext I have noticed seems to be that she should have what she wants just because she was born with one major qualification. But, I am with you in that I think the Facebook thing especially, is a huge strike against any type of “keeper” status she might have had. The root of that behavior is not insignificant, and ties in really closely with the question of why (deep down) she wants to get back in his good graces. Just enabling her to leap a hurdle isn’t enough- Susan realizes this no doubt, but she does have a blog to run.
Russ in Texas – Like I said, there were plenty of red flags, I was just never taught to look for them. And, in some cases, I was specifically taught to overlook them. I could spend days and write pages on it, but it wouldn’t change a thing.
The bottom line: she was originally attracted to who I was when I met her, but through my beliefs in “responsibility” to my family and lots of bad advice, I changed from that man to a pussy whipped yes man, that got massively out of shape and overweight. I can look back and completely understand why she lost attraction for me, but at the time I was completely baffled because I believed I was doing all the right things for her and my family. Turns out, I needed to do more for myself first, like get a backbone. My primary fault was believing that my ex was somehow above taking advantage of me because she was a “good” person. I don’t believe for one moment she intentionally did so, but I offered it to her on a silver platter, and she took it and ran with it.
FWIW I still think she is a “good” person, and we get along rather well now that we are not tied by matrimony. Which works for me since we have children together. She still has lots of personal issues to work out, and she may go to her grave with them at this rate. But thankfully, that is no longer my problem.
@94 Well explained Susan.
.
There is a control imbalance for Annes equal. For a woman to be a desireable 9, she must be young and pretty. Hot Mess´s are everywhere. (Ever been to L.A.?). For a man to be a 9, he must be so much more, making her equal much rarer. He must be funny, smart, wealthy, tall, confident etc. The problem is, a female 9 is used to having choices and control. When she meets her “equal”, he is in much more demand than her, and her program gets spun out of control. Her hot chick games dont work anymore and shes rattled.
.
High value dudes will give much less effort and you must bite quickly, or the path of less resistance is taken. (your competition).You will never see a circle of high value dudes competing for woman at a cocktail party like you see the average guys doing. They remove themselves from that whirpool of competition as it is seen as being beneath them.
.
I know most will disagree, but I advise Anne to NOT swallow her pride and just move on. Ive ended countless relationships for pride reasons and never regretted any of them. Without your pride and dignity, you have nothing.
.
BTW, we havent seen this Anne, and we are calling her a 9. Is this a “London 9″? Because that would be an “L.A. 6″ or a “Colombian 5″. For the record, an “L.A. 9″ would be a “London 13″.
@Ted:
“She was “into” me in the beginning, but not nearly enough. There were plenty of red flags, but I was never told what they were, and how to look for them. I was 26, she was 21, so lack of experience played a part for sure. The ‘social pressure’ came from my family, that were increasingly telling me it was ‘time to settle down’ and all that. I failed on several fronts spectacularly”
I sympathize with that, and to which I say, The faults are neither yours nor your first wife, but that stupid doctrinal social and family pressure. The only thing I don’t understand is why this dramatic life experience with ONE particular woman under tight family peer pressure has made you view women on the whole in such a negative light? I also don’t understand why you would still rant about it since, by your own admission, you’ve found a descent wife with whom you seem content enough to live with.
“I’ve been dating him for around two months now. ”
I know I’m old and don’t “get” the whole facebook-dating culture, but her story sounds more like hooking-up with a few nice dinners thrown in as opposed to actual grown-up “dating”. It reads like a no-strings deal that she *may want to* turn into more, when she is ready and when he has earned the right to more by assuaging her emotional baggage to the point where she decides the ‘relationship’ is worthy of her emotional investment.
Thing like texting for late night cocktails, “…that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me.” and yet getting bent when the puppet strings go lax should be clear examples of how sex w/o commitment, exclusivity or even just mature communication can make for a difficult path to such. There are obviously expectations, and expectations w/o communication = trouble. And she apparently sees sex as some kind of carrot here, which is problematic for many reasons.
Hot or not, PUA guy or not, she doesn’t sound ready for a grown-up relationship. The situation is basically been casual sex with her establishing the rules of engagement unilaterally and then holding him to what she “thinks” should happen.
“I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs.”
I know the horse has left the barn in this case, but I don’t think I saw any references to the benefits of establishing commitment and exclusivity prior to giving it up. A lot of the least-interest posturing and frankly juvenile passive-aggressive communication and score-keeping could have been headed off with a bit more work on the front end. That is, if she was in fact ready, which I think is in question.
A minimal or withholding emotional posture coupled with non-exclusive sex kind of sounds like something other than “dating” to me. She is basically trying to rely on sexual intimacy to inspire him to move the relationship along according to her terms, without acknowledging that she was lowering the price/value of that sex by withholding her emotional investment. Then she wonders why he wouldn’t take that carrot.
They have yet to establish the mutual respect and level of communication to support anything beyond the casual sex relationship that it seems to be. We can speculate about what this guy is all about, but based on how Anne has approached this situation, to me this has less to do with her being “hot” or a “9″ and more to do with very poor sequencing of investments and lacking of alignment and communication of expectations.
I’m just not convinced she actually wants a full-fledged relationship. The issue of her being hot has little to do with how this situation played out and much more to do with how she will be able to find plenty of men willing to engage her in this kind of “dating” – much more so than “average” women can. Given that, and her willingness to engage in sex first, figure it out later will put this statement: “I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous,” into serious jeopardy.
DV – “The only thing I don’t understand is why this dramatic life experience with ONE particular woman under tight family peer pressure has made you view women on the whole in such a negative light?”
Well to be frank, I don’t see it as a “negative light” at all. I see it as a more realistic view in general. I still treat my wife as an individual, which means that I treat her the way she treats me. But, overall, I simply have a negative outlook of humanity, not just women. I simply don’t rant about bad male behavior here because it isn’t the primary conversation. If you look though, you’d see that I am just as judgmental of “trash dicks” as I am of “sluts”. I’m tend to be equally unfair to everyone.
“I also don’t understand why you would still rant about it since, by your own admission, you’ve found a descent wife with whom you seem content enough to live with.”
There are many reasons, but the primary two are:
1. to be an example of what NOT to do for young guys
2. Because I have four children that will be wading into the SMP soon.
Actually, my oldest is 18 and is starting college in the spring. Luckily she is currently in the beginning stages of a relationship with a decent guy a few years older than she is. He could use a little nudge in the alpha direction, but so far my daughter hasn’t shown to be the type that needs a lot of gaming.
Also, I tend to believe that our current social climate completely sucks, and it is a never ending source of irritation to me that no one really gives a shit. I’d much rather fix everything than have to teach my kids how to cope in a flawed system, but other than ranting there isn’t much I can do to fix that. I’m doing most of what I can, which is trying to instill some decent morality in my children without hindering their ability to succeed in an immoral and unethical society.
And maybe bitching on occasion makes me feel better. It’s kinda how I tend to work things out. I get pissed/depressed, I bitch and moan, when I get tired of bitching and moaning I fix it. Since I can’t fix this, I often return to bitching and moaning. I haven’t managed to get to the point where I just don’t give a shit anymore. I’m hoping it arrives right after our youngest turns 18. I figure at that point, I’ve done my duty to my kids and they can take the baton and run with it. I’ll be looking for somewhere to live in relative peace to enjoy whatever time I’ve got left however I want. At this point all I’m doing is honoring the responsibilities I chose to take on until the only people I am responsible for/to are myself and my wife.
DV: “I also don’t understand why you would still rant about it since, by your own admission, you’ve found a descent wife with whom you seem content enough to live with.”
The need to learn, the need to remember so as not to repeat the previous error, and the hope of internalizing it for one’s children so it can be taught to them and hopefully prevent them from making the same error.
@Sai @Just1Z
… heh … that’s until we discuss whose granddaddy kicked whose granddaddy’s arse at the glorious battle of Magersfontein … mindjohjyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\,.]
… ahhhhh … this is what happens when I go outside for a smoke …
Just call her TC btw
@Jesse
I never said it was more accurate or objective. The advantages are that it gives more granularity than the 4 categories you mentioned and it’s faster to type ’9′ instead of ‘gorgeous’. Since there are variations between solidly pretty (an 8 to me), gorgeous (9), and 1/100,000 gorgeous (10), and the various degrees of ugly then it is useful to many to talk about it.
Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there can be systematic and random differences between what a 1-10 scale would mean to each man (and woman).
@Deti:
“The need to learn, the need to remember so as not to repeat the previous error, and the hope of internalizing it for one’s children so it can be taught to them and hopefully prevent them from making the same error.”
“The need to learn”.
Sure, but you should be past that one by now.
“The need to remember”…
Come on pal, that sounds already like an eternal rancour against the first heartbreak… I’ve had those as well and moved beyond without viewing the fairer sex as the eternal evil opposite.
“so it can be taught to them and hopefully prevent them from making the same error.”
Well, I only hope you don’t give them your view about how women are or how they should be according to you. Nonetheless, I wish you well.
@ Marc
I am not from London. English girls are unattractive, but there are hardly any English girls in the capital, just like there are hardly any Americans in New York (which is why, to be honest, you find good-looking women there).
It comes down to taste anyway – some men prefer Colombian women, in which case I wouldn’t be their type.
“without viewing the fairer sex as the eternal evil opposite.”
Women aren’t any more evil than men are; but they aren’t any LESS evil either.
@Ted D
Come to Glacier Park. Lots of peace and beauty.
http://bbs.crsky.com/1236983883/Mon_1101/25_187566_007f0766b402b4e.jpg
@Just1Z @Sai.
#477 Link doesn’t work. Try this. Sorry.
tumblr.com is a bloody schlep to get a photo’s url.
Actually, now that I think of it, I haven’t seen IMG or Max with *any* Colombian types recently, at least not ranked ones.
>> ” Is this a “London 9″? Because that would be an “L.A. 6″ or a “Colombian 5″. For the record, an “L.A. 9″ would be a “London 13″.”
Oh snap!!! I’m no Kate Upton, but I experienced a noticeable increase in SMV the second I got to England. It’s a weird experience to go through, and I suspect that I’d have a really hard time readjusting to my “old” SMV if I were to leave.
True. It sounds like she didn’t keep up her end of the bargain. Ted has said he made some mistakes too. We all do. Unexpected things happen. We keep reevaluating, making choices every day. Staying is a choice. Inertia is a choice.
HanSolo – Montana huh? Maybe. That will largely depend on what the U.S. looks like when I’m ready to move on. At this point, I’m not limiting myself to staying within the States, and if things get any worse, I’ll rule them out entirely. Lots of places in the world where you can live a good life on a savings nest egg, and as much as I’d like to be all pro-America, I don’t have much faith in our government at this point.
@Hansolo #482
Homigod,
Susan – “It sounds like she didn’t keep up her end of the bargain.”
I don’t know that she knew exactly what the “bargain” was.
“Ted has said he made some mistakes too.”
I don’t know that *I* knew exactly what the “bargain” was either to be honest. We were both working from an incorrect set of rules/scripts, and neither of us had enough raw experience to know any better.
I sincerely hope she works her issues out, but I don’t know if she has it in her to do the hard work required. Like I said, no longer my problem.
@BroHamlet
I’ll disagree here. I think my language in the OP is very direct and holds her fully responsible for her behavior. I did not state that being beautiful entitles her to treat other people poorly or take them for granted.
I did observe that her mentality is not uncommon among beautiful women, in my experience. I’ve already laid out the reasons why, so I won’t do it again here. I don’t view the “beautiful woman mindset” as a positive one or one that should be reinforced in any way. Rather than relying on men “negging” Anne to make her question her value, I preferred to give her specific examples of inconsiderate behavior, and suggest the way she might begin to make amends. If Anne returns to that mindset, she’s obviously going to be out of the running fairly quickly.
While I do have a blog to run, I am not obligated to feature any particular letter. In fact, I’ve only recently started posting them after a pretty long break. I ran hers because I found it interesting, somewhat unusual, and felt that the commenters here might be able to help her. I think the results bear that out.
@Lokland#452.
Disagree. If Anne is a *successful* model, it wouldn’t be all that hard to figure out who she is (since I follow fashion, if she is up in ranked-model territory, I can actually make a pretty good educated guess). Modelling is like acting; LOTS of people wanting in, relatively few “top talent” at the top, and drama splashing all over FB is the LAST thing you need.
That can be career damage, and it is ENTIRELY appreciable that the account would get the axe instantly under those circumstances.
@Marellus
Behind that mountain is Iceberg Lake due to the shade of the mountain and here’s a pic I took of the reflection of the sun, clouds, sky and mountain amidst the mini-icebergs in the lake:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/540368_10151195642145579_1373616213_n.jpg
A beautiful lake and meadow of flowers before arriving at Iceberg Lake:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/409581_10151195641140579_265605001_n.jpg
Here’s some bears I took a picture of:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/427456_10151188923155579_1875726426_n.jpg
And a turquoise lake:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/284908_10151218415815579_1997969755_n.jpg
@Tasmin
This is exactly right. I also share your read of the “not yet relationship.” Unfortunately, this pattern of progression is extremely common among young people today. PLI is the default position, and you can see that Anne is loath to give up hand – it makes her feel very vulnerable.
She is very young, and still in school. Yes, she said she sees him as a potential husband and father, but everyone matures later today than they did 50 years ago. This is a good example of why marrying at 20 or while in college is generally a very poor idea.
Ted, what HanSolo hasn’t told you is that winters in that section are BRUTAL, much, MUCH worse than you’d normally espect at that latitude.
I used to live nearby; don’t get me wrong, it’s gorgeous, but it’s not like just slipping off to East Tennessee.
@Russ in Texas
Just stay for the summer.
Then off to Brazil and catch summer there.
Actually, it’s beautiful in winter too with the mountains covered in snow and sitting by a warm fireplace watching football.
“just like there are hardly any Americans in New York”
This is not true.
@ Emily:
You know what, I felt an increase in SMV when I was in London too! Among Indian guys at least. Guys bought me drinks, came up to tell me I was “really fit”, hitting on me in pairs — I even noticed one guy turning his head to look at me twice, lol. (It was weird because he was walking in *front* of me.)
That being said, I also keenly felt a drop in status. Indians in the UK/Europe generally have a lower socio-economic status than they do in the US (rigorous US immigration standards –> different class of people). I heard some racist stuff. Given the choice between Europe and the US, I’d probably still choose the US.
I’m not prepared to jump into a discussion of regional female SMVs, but I can tell you that my claim that Anne is a 9 is based on my own judgment, confirmed by three young males who had no idea who she is. One asked, “Is that Kate Upton?” As I said, Anne looks a bit like the bottom, *good* pic of KU I posted earlier. I guess you could say she’s a Boston 9, whatever that is.
The only reason her looks are relevant is that I think it explains her unwillingness to meet Stephen halfway, and her assumption that she could win him with little effort and no emotional investment. No doubt it’s worked for her before. However, she really likes this one, he didn’t tolerate her nonsense, so she needs to adjust her mindset.
@ Escoffier,
I don’t know the stats, but every time you meet an good-looking girl in NY, she will be from another country. Bigger city – more international, less Americans, less obesity. It’s the same with London.
Don’t get me wrong, Han. It’s one of the very few and specific parts of the US which would lure me out of the subtle beauty of my lovely, flat, drab, ugly-as-death scrub plains, should I stumble onto the right offer/opportunity (and you guys have got the scrub plains, too).
I’ve got GREAT memories from that part of the country. But it’s not for everyone.
@Susan#498,
If Anne *is* who I would guess she is (and it’s none of my damned business), then I concur, she would be outside of my usual preferences but an unarguable high-9.
@Anne#499,
Yes. Obesity is a HUGE issue in the US. It is elsewhere, too, but we seem to have fallen off the edge of the map into “here be elephants” country.
@Hansolo
There is nothing like this where I live. Nothing. The only place that might have vistas like this, is Lesotho … and there they still practice lobola
In the area where I live, there are sights like this :
http://www.walltor.com/images/wallpaper/karoo-8666.jpg
http://www.thegreatkaroo.com/file/flatmountains.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Mp4JEdzhOc/TxhnbWmmthI/AAAAAAAAEoc/SN9tdzsE4YY/s640/IMGP6622.JPG
http://blog.sa-venues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/gamkaskloof-02.jpg
http://homeex.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/108809/2.108809_Prince_Albert_town.jpg
http://www.africansky.com/img_sa_tours/8-day-capetown-gardenroute-2b.jpg
Anyway, I can understand why Sam Neil’s character in The Hunt for Red October said he’d love to see Montana.
“but every time you meet an good-looking girl in NY, she will be from another country”
This is not true either, not even as an exaggeration.
NYC is a giant vacuum cleaner hoovering up pretty girls from all over the nation. I don’t doubt that there are plenty of pretty foreigners too but the idea that all the good looking girls here are from overseas is preposterous.
SayWhaat,
I’m sure that that your American boyfriend makes you a bit biased, in the same way that my adorable English boyfriend makes me a bit biased.
I’m very much on TEAM ENGLISH GUYS. 
Suzan, will you kindly unmoderate my latest comment ? Thank You.
It’s impossible to agree completely on ‘attractiveness’. I understand that male readers, annoyed by my initial email and perhaps bitter from bad experience with an “entitled woman”, will do what they can to convince me I am not “as hot as I think I am”. I have never said anything about my appearance, and I cannot be everyone’s type. All I know is that I am Stephen’s “type”.
I have observed different levels of female beauty in many larger cities, but the amount of attention I get from men in any European capital or NY or LA, does not vary that much.
@Russ in Texas
I am pretty certain I am not who “you think I am”, because there is really little way of knowing.
Russ in Texas wrote:
Skiing dry powder is an awesome, spiritual experience mkay?
@Anne:
By the way, how’s Stephen doing? Planning on texting him later, say around 5?
Anne, you’re almost certainly correct, and it’s is definitely not important. I *do* hope you and Stephen do well — that’s the only actual important thing we’ve discussed in 400-some posts!!
Mr. Nervous Toes:
Sure. Try building a snowman or having a decent snowball fight with the stuff. :p
Here in Salt Lake we have nice mountains, but I’m not much of an outdoors type. It is a gorgeous view, though.
Emily, no wonder I sometimes see you posting when I’m up at 5am. You’re in England. Way cool!
Emily,
LOL, I didn’t know your bf was English! That accent must be a major plus. I love accents. BF and I know a couple where the girl is Irish and the guy is from Uganda. I could sit in the same room and listen to them talk all day…
@Marellus,
It would really help your cause if you spelled Susan’s name correctly.
When I first arrived, I pretty much had a crush on every guy I talked to. But I’ve been over here for two years now, so I’ve actually developed an immunity to most of the accents. That being said, you have NO IDEA how much I’m looking forward to bringing my British boyfriend back home and showing him off!
Emily,
My wife’s Hungarian accent still occasionally turns some heads, though she’s “going native” now, and is on the phone with people in Memphis regularly — so sometimes she turns my head by combining something very Buda with a twang that would throw a basketball.
@Marellus
I’m afraid that my dutch is even worse than my german, and I haven’t heard much afrikaans. Had a few dive buddies around SEA from down your way though. Them Aussies, Kiwis and Scandies are endemic out that way – good times weere had!
spent some time on HRMS Blommendal (Dutch Royal Navy) a few decades ago. unfortunately the phonetic alphabet stuck better than the local lingo.
(no cheating from books etc – picked up a few words from hearing)
een, twee, dree…twelf…twintig
als je blieft
dank je vel
Don’t know that any of my 19th century ancestors had an active military history…maybe our great^n fathers just got pissed in a bar together? That’s my experience with you guys anyway…
@Joe #513
and?
Russ in Texas,
Yeah, I’m hoping that I’ll eventually develop a sophisticated Transatlantic accent (like the mom on Downton Abbey!), but we’ll have to see what happens.
@Just1Z
I hope the argument was about who insisted the most emphatically … on paying for all the drinks …
Iggles: “Manipulating others = bad. Acting from integrity = good. It’s not that hard, dude.”
Shit test = deception.
Women who shit test = deserve being deceived, in return.
Not that hard, babe.
@Emily
can you tell brummie from liverpudlian? devonian from geordie?
it’s generally to the English guys’ great good fortune that most Americans don’t know a good accent from a bad one (anecdotally speaking, of course). You may well be getting wise to that…damn
me? I’ve got a non-estuarial generic south-east English one, but one can pile on the plum if required.
I once had a woman from Savannah ask me to keep talking, didn’t matter what I said because she loved my accent so much…cool! except that in, oh so many ways, it was a shame that she was four decades my senior at the time…FML
@Marellus, that’s a nice thought…
Just1z:
True story. When Reing of Crap (I mean Rain of Fire, sorry) came out (nice little B movie that could have been very good, spoiled by totally inappropriate soundtrack), a lot of my friends here in Texas LITERALLY couldn’t understand the actors’ dialogue — the Geordie was completely impenetrable to them. My wife having lived there and me having friends from not far off, we didn’t have that problem, and the two of us had to translate for the resto f the room.
@ Just1Z,
I honestly don’t understand why there isn’t a mass exodus of British guys into North America! I keep telling guys this, and they laugh, but I mean it! You know the part in Love Actually where the two British guys go to America? That’s actually how it works.
I still have a lot to learn when it comes to the regional accents. I can tell if an accent is a Northern accent or if it’s really posh or if it’s a stereotypical Essex accent, but most of the subtleties get lost on me. I’m slowly learning, but there are SO MANY accents in such a small area!
Most shit testing is not intended to deceive at all, the intent is to qualify the male. In fact, most of it is not even conscious. Nothing Machiavellian about it.
@Just1Z @Russ
What about Guy Ritchie movies ?
@Russ
yeah, I don’t think that the reverse problem crops up much as ‘we’ grow up to a lot of US TV shows.
I worked with a glaswegian woman that was usually comprehensible, but every now and again she came into work and…oops. She had talked to family back home the night before and her accent went up and the speed with it – cue ‘pardon’, ‘sorry’, ‘did not quite catch that’, ‘come again’, blank stare. She slowed down and toned it down after an hour or two.
Now there are lovely Sco’ish accents, but glaswegian is not one of them.
a book that is only really readable to me if I mouth the words on the page (and it is a great book, very funny) is
The Long Midnight Of Barney Thomson: A Serial Killer Thriller (Barney Thomson #1) by Douglas Lindsay
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Midnight-Barney-Thomson-ebook/dp/B0060CIX6U
he talks a lo’ a mince. d’ya ken? maybe no’ for the hens.
(Lindsay toned the accent down a lot for the rest of the series)
the famous book for the Edinburgh accent is of course:
Trainspotting by Irvine Welsh (yeah, the source of the eponymous film)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trainspotting-ebook/dp/B0031RS588
(again mouth the words and it works pretty well)
one’s about serial killing, the other about drugs. Barney’s is the funnier story.
@OffTheCuff
Actually, a woman shittesting a man is the equivalent of the man checking out her body.
“Deception” on a woman’s part would be wearing makeup, high heels, push up bras, hair extensions, tanning, shaving her legs, plucking her eyebrows, etc. — to unnaturally make herself more physically attractive and manipulate the man’s perception of her.
Everybody’s cool with that. But as soon as a guy uses dread to unnaturally demonstrate his status and raise her attraction — it’s labeled as insecurity and manipulation.
@Susan
“I’ll disagree here. I think my language in the OP is very direct and holds her fully responsible for her behavior. I did not state that being beautiful entitles her to treat other people poorly or take them for granted.”
I think your advice was on the money. I was responding to some of your comments earlier in the comment thread where you seemed to be making a big deal about SMV- I wasn’t clear about that. Someone else has pointed out that at the upper end of the spectrum, there’s a big difference between what constitutes hot between a woman and a man, which makes for an imbalance in the numbers and serves to make looks a lot less important at that level. That’s not to kick dirt at all. But it does make the identity piece I have been harping on really important for hot girls who date in their range (which is nearly all of them), since it’s easy to get caught up in the external reinforcement that people are always providing. Personally I’d say you’d be doing a big service by writing something like an inner game primer for women- something less specific and more abstract to balance with the strategy. Anyhow, food for thought. Merry Christmas
Re : Shit tests
Her : Do you do sports ?
Me : No, I’m lazy.
She cracked up. She couldn’t leave me alone. She was only ten years old.
Unbelievable.
@Marellus
I do like Guy’s films. Brad Pitt as cool in Snatch, though he clearly couldn’t speaka-da-pikey. They really pulled that off very well.
The ‘Zombies vs Cockneys’ film that I mentioned recently was funny but probably a little troublesome – kna wot I mene, mate? I gave a short list of translations for cockney rhyming slang to ‘normal’ on HUS (somewhere). It’s very Guy Ritchie-esque.
http://www.amazon.com/Cockneys-Vs-Zombies-Blu-ray/dp/B008LU8MWO/
not worth $45 though.
perhaps it is available *cough* online *cough*?
no worthwhile reviews on the US link, try the UK one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cockneys-Vs-Zombies-Blu-ray/dp/B008LU8MWO
£8 = $12-$13
Just1Z:
I’ll have to look Ritchie up. For somebody with a horribly degraded LOVE of appallingly-bad B movies, I’m actually pretty pathetic when it comes to pop culture – no t.v. and hobbies that are either nerdy as hell, or else high-academic-boring.
I’ve heard Glaswegian, though, and wow. I find it quite difficult.
Sue: “Most shit testing is not intended to deceive at all, the intent is to qualify the male. In fact, most of it is not even conscious. Nothing Machiavellian about it.”
So if I deceive a women with the intent to get laid, it’s ok – so long as I am not conscious of it. Perfect!
@Susan:
“In fact, most of it is not even conscious. Nothing Machiavellian about it.Most shit testing is not intended to deceive at all, the intent is to qualify the male.”
Yes, I strongly believe that most of it is not even conscious. Definitely not something machiavelian, but rather a self protective manner of quantifying man’s value, yet at times definitely subconsciously Machiavelic…
@Russ
Ever saw Blood Diamonds where Leo Di Caprio plays a Saffa ? His impersonation of the Saffa-accent is good. I’ve read that the Saffa-accent is one of the most difficult accents for an actor can imitate.
@Russ
“I’ve heard Glaswegian, though, and wow. I find it quite difficult.”
oh boy, are you right about that!
the Barney book is very entertaining if you can push through the language. But hey, it’s not any harder than Chaucer (or not by much)…
@Just1Z
I love Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister. It’s, for me, the finest comedy ever made.
@Marellus
Coupling is my favourite, Susan is a fan too. Note that we’re talking about the original UK version here. It was written by the guy who went on to re-vamp Dr Who.
Jeff ‘caravan-shaker’ / ‘sock gap’ / ‘giggle loop’ / ‘Ihave the key to the gates of paradise, but I’ve got too many legs’ Murdoch is the funniest character in a very funny series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNezkr89oQ&playnext=1&list=PL243D86636E76E2E5
Steve: There are three things all men should know, and it’s time you did too. You’re never going to be famous, you’re fatter than you think, and, most important of all, they don’t keep wearing stockings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_khjS5DT84
On par with Chaucer is fine, since I happen to be a medievalist. On par with Beowulf, and I’m calling it a day.
@Russ
to (mis?)quote a great American philosopher, “A man must know his limitations”
me? my limit is Glaswegian, and ahm no talkin’ mince here
@Underdog
Not sure why I’m bothering, but:
The equivalent of a woman’s heightening her physical attractiveness is a man’s heightening his physical attractiveness. In fact, studies of Dark Triad males show that they’re not better looking naturally, they just put a huge effort into their personal appearance. Hairstyling, facial hair, clothing to show off musculature, tanning, etc. Also heel lifts, boots with a heel for added height, as well as clothing that sends a certain message, e.g. black leather jacket = bad boy rebel. Men are no less likely to deceive re their appearance or anything else. It is well known that when dating online, men regularly exaggerate both height and income in their profiles.
The equivalent of a man’s using dread is a woman’s using dread. Waiting to return text messages, not picking up the phone, giving vague answers about plans, flaking, flirting with other men in front of your partner, wistfully mentioning exes, inside jokes with the gf’s he is not privy to, etc.
@BroHamlet
This is a great idea. If you or anyone else has suggestions, shoot them to me. This is one I’ll have to think about a bit. Merry Christmas to you too!
If you were not conscious, you could not be held accountable for a conscious choice, could you? I think a better analogy would be your doing a double take at a beautiful woman before you could stop yourself. Or fantasizing about sex with a beautiful stranger.
It is important to note that shit testing is a response to a woman’s perception of male weakness. If you’re getting shit tested, you’re either going way too soft or you’re dating a ball buster who requires massive shows of dominance.
@Susan
“The equivalent of a woman’s heightening her physical attractiveness is a man’s heightening his physical attractiveness”
That’s not how it works. Men are attracted to physical appearance that signal fertility in women. Women are attracted to behaviors that signify status/dominance in men. I feel like this is basic red pill stuff here and you’re reverting to equalist/feminist thinking.
Sometimes this is not necessarily bad.
Well some of it.
If she sends me a text message every 15 minutes, that’s kind of a problem.
This factors into guys not texting/calling/etc all the time, too. Us Blue-Pill Beta Guys REALLY have to hold ourselves back when we want to express more, which is what is actually necessary to keep attraction, but the way “dread game” is being described in this thread, well, all Blue Pill Beta Guys are Grade-A Dicks.
@Russ
speaking of unusual music (which we weren’t) and adding in Hungarian (your wife), have you heard any ‘Ladytron’ (kind of ‘Roxy Music’ish). One of the two lead singers is a rather good looking Hungarian lady. I wouldn’t say that it’s a favourite of mine, but it’s catchy when you’re in the mood. Might surprise your wife too…
Black Cat (2:00+ for Hungarian vocals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lwh5gu58oc
Kletva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2FwauPpods
English (my favourite of theirs, the first that I heard):
Destroy everything you touch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTwlAT_AwU
no vocals – atmospheric
CMYK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSz-OvtJP90
and g’night
Because why would someone who is secure and confident BOTHER playing a game like deliberately turning your phone off for 4 days so you’re GF can’t contact you?
Ted beat me to it. Because it works. That’s what people here and elsewhere still don’t understand about Game. The tactics WORK. It is only the reasons as to why they work that are in question. Expressing doubt about the tactics only indicates that you genuinely have no idea what you’re talking about. Being secure and confident doesn’t indicate behaving in a sub-optimal manner that reduces your chances of getting what you want.
It’s not your hitting on other women that creates dread (though I’m sure she wouldn’t appreciate it), it’s other women coming after you. That’s the main reason I think this tactic is low value. A woman whose husband has options, or who women find attractive in general, is well aware of it. Acting creepy and inappropriate with other people’s wives just humiliates your wife, it doesn’t make her want to give you a blow job.
And that is irrelevant if it makes her give you the blow job whether she thinks she wants to or not. Susan, the main reason you think this tactic is low value is because you were scarred by it as a child. But just because you see your father as low value and you saw him use the tactic does not mean that the tactic itself is of low value, much less the men who utilize it.
Genuine indifference may be more honest than the synthetic Game imitation, but it’s not necessarily less damaging to the woman involved. Do you really think it makes a woman happier or helps her self-esteem to know that the man in her life genuinely doesn’t care that much about whether she is in his life or not, as opposed to having him fake it every now and again?
I agree that it would be best if everyone was open, honest, and disdained tactics of manipulation and control. But that’s simply not the case for most of the people most of the time. Here is a question for you: do you agree that once a woman shows she is willing to utilize manipulative and controlling tactics, or play fast and loose with the truth, a man is perfectly justified in doing the same in return?
But just because you see your father as low value and you saw him use the tactic does not mean that the tactic itself is of low value, much less the men who utilize it.
Let me rephrase that, it came out sounding much too harsh. “But just because you saw your father as low value in this regard etc…
Others have touched on it already, but this is my synopsis of what happened. This woman has never had someone turn her down before. She’s has her ass kissed her entire life. She blows off this dude at 8pm because she has to “sleep” for 2 hours (which is bullshit if you ask her, she didn’t sleep, just a convenient lie to make her feel better), then calls him at 11p.m for a late night booty call. She didn’t really want to hang out with him, she wanted to tolerate him for a drink or two and then have another fuck buddy session. Her late night booty call is DENIED. The first time in her life this has happened. She hasn’t dealt with people out of college yet who have lives outside of getting laid, and certainly hasn’t dealt with someone who thinks their career is more important than her vajayjay. This denial gets her PISSED OFF (her words), her ego is so fragile about it that she has to come back and tell him she doesn’t want to hang out with him for the near future, in order to save ‘face’ in her eyes. He, of course being a logical dude, says ‘sure call me when you can’, which enrages her further because it’s not supplicating (some people call it respecting yourself, I would say you need game in this era to reject the feminist mindset enough to respect yourself like this). She then decides to shit on him again by calling him at 1 a.m. and waking him up (to remind him that she doesn’t give a shit about his career) to request another booty call. Again, DENIED. In light of these two rejections, she realizes she doesn’t have ‘hand’ (her words), and since she’s so full of herself she can’t have a relationship without that dynamic, she never asks if they are still on for Saturday, because double checking means she doesn’t have ‘hand’, they would be equals. Obviously, after realizing he’s just a booty call and not wanting to be just that (usually these are called NICE guys and not pursued by 9′s but of course $$$ changes things), he blows her off for the Saturday party he’s been bragging to all his friends that he has a hot date for. She then unfriends him on Facebook, the ultimate 16 year old diss. Then, being of sound hamster solipsistic mind, she wonders why after she unfriended him on Facebook, and called him at midnight on a work night twice for a booty call, why he hasn’t come crawling back to her asking why she defriended him and begging for her attentions again.
Sounds like high school to me. This woman is in for a rude awakening when she leaves college.
It’s l
@Just1Z#546,
That’s not Hungarian. That’s slavic, which I speak poorly. Big wide vowels, so something southern, probably Croat or Bulgarian (ALL slavic languages are about as close together as french-italian at the outside, but I speak just enough of the common words and phrases to get around town and play tourist or find my way to the archives — anything else and I need help, bigtime).
Bastiat, you said, “Every man really needs a Safe Room, if not a Safe House…Batcave, Fortress of Solitude, Tony Stark’s private lab, etc. At a minimum, it should be equipped with secure access (I recommend Medeco locks), high-quality porn/sports-viewing equipment, sound system, heavy bag(s), a well-stocked bar area, a microwave, and adequate workshop tables and shelving for hobbies and interests.”
I think I agree with this. Russ didn’t like the locks with his married perspective, but I don’t think many men really disagree with the rest. Introverts need their retreats more than extoverts, I suspect.
@VD#547,
This is the part that throws me:
Yes, it works. It ABSOLUTELY works, if executed correctly. But does that mean it’s necessarily the right tool for the job?
If a man’s crossed that oh so special line, I *could* bust his nose and reverse his knee as a way of getting him to see my point. Or, if I’m an actual reasonable human being, I might be able to fix the problem by sitting him down and buying him a beer.
Given the choice, wouldn’t the buy-him-a-beer non-nuclear option be preferred first?
Oh so Anne, how did that text message/email/phone message (hopefully you have enough class to supplicate on the phone) go? It’s been a few days now. Inquiring minds want to know. Or let me guess, this is all mental masturbation.
@JuTR
This one’s fundamentally a de-gustibus thing. I’m heavily introverted, but so is my wife, and we have a very, very quiet house. To the point that I haul my kid to McDonalds, where I would NEVER actually eat otherwise, just to get her around a bunch of rambunctious crazy people playing on slides.
If my wife were an outgoing social creature with lots of family friends over, a television (which we don’t even own) blaring, and all that, then yes, I would absolutely require a Fortress of Solitude. But outside of the kitchen, which is her territory, it’s my g-d house, and I’m not retreating into a corner in order to do the things I do, unless they involve dangerous chemicals. (withdrawing is what happens to doormats in horror stories who wind up finding themselves living in a garage or basement while the wife runs a house he barely even recognizes).
derp — too early. She just contacted the guy yesterday.
“Has it come to that? Not begging = Game?”
Who else is going to teach you to respect yourself? Your dad that is never around? Your mom that hates men from her college study days? The football locker room in high school? It is the posters you don’t like, Rollo and Roissy and Roosh (The Triple R(tm) Respect yourself team) that have taken it upon themselves to remind men to ignore everything they were taught in life, and look back on their life and remember what worked, and realize it was -always- bullshit like playing it cool or ignoring her that gave you access to the best sex from the best looking women. Of course, you try to bury those thoughts, because you lose respect for humans, both male and female, when you realize that everything Edward Bernays said was correct.
The worst thing I can say about Anne is that she comes across as lacking some some grace, charm and femininity. She seems a bit… stiff.
Having said that, I’m not comfortable criticizing her very harshly because I don’t know enough about the situation. It seems a bit uncouth to be too definitive.
Also, Russ, I have seen some very attractive Hungarian women, but I am too ashamed to mention specifically which corners of the Internet I have found them in. Ha ha.
@Russ in Texas
This is the only song I know containing Hungarian vocals:
http://youtu.be/GAdK74gJe04
(Gonna watch Ahnold in “Collateral Damage” now, yay)
“It is the posters you don’t like, Rollo and Roissy and Roosh (The Triple R(tm) Respect yourself team) that have taken it upon themselves to remind men to ignore everything they were taught in life, and look back on their life and remember what worked, and realize it was -always- bullshit like playing it cool or ignoring her that gave you access to the best sex from the best looking women. Of course, you try to bury those thoughts, because you lose respect for humans, both male and female, when you realize that everything Edward Bernays said was correct.”
Game is just a brute force social engineering hack.
Not impressed.
@JP
“Game is just a brute force social engineering hack.”
http://youtu.be/aWgiswg5kIs?t=5m14s
JP – “Game is just a brute force social engineering hack”
As a former IT security guy, impressive or not, brute force hacks often work. And as Vin Diesel said in the Fast and the Furious, “it don’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning.”
“Not impressed.”
What is it you are not impressed with?
@Russ
“Given the choice, wouldn’t the buy-him-a-beer non-nuclear option be preferred first?”
Depends.
If the three bullet hole scars in your shoulder are from the last time you tried to sit a guy down and buy him a beer then no. Shoot him you idiot.
Dread game works.
Its effective.
All other points are moot
EXCEPT
Its not the only thing that works.
There are other things that tend to work more consistently.
Personally I preferred an approach to women that treated them like what they were.
Dark women got dark game. (Know I’m gonna get shot. Therefore shoot first.)
Light women got light game. (Not getting shot.)
Those who couldn’t make it obvious got dark game. (Your example.)
Those who are receptive to light and dark game. (Dark game.)
Maybe if you grew up in a hole with zero social skills and look like a mole-rat light game might not work.
However on the right women being a ‘gentleman’ (not a pussy) is quite effective.
The problem with PUAs is they are unable to ID the different types of women.
And dark women tend to have a lot of pull (slutty hot) vs. the light women most of whom have 0 femininity and 0 pull (least in North America).
——————————
On the FB bit.
Don’t care.
Stated above.
If you can’t tell whether its dark game (temper tantrum FB deletion, insanity game actually) or work related (light game) either do not proceed or treat with dark game.
Personally from how it was written I went forward with the interpretation that this girl was actually nuts.
Under no circumstance would I view being turned down as an acceptable reason for what occurred.
“Game is just a brute force social engineering hack.”
I remember back in college I dated an extreme hotty for a few weeks, getting nowhere. We went out to see some music, and I had basically gotten so frustrated with her I decided to be a dick (There was no concept of game in the early 90′s so I can’t call it running game) and scammed on another woman at the table next to me, got her phone number, chatted her for a full hour ignoring the woman I came with, and even said at one point ‘Let me drop of my FRIEND I came with, and we can go find some bar that closes right at 2 after the shows over’. Guess who had hot sex with a hotty that night. Of course the next morning, she went back to ignoring me again, because the GAMING WORE OFF, but it was ok, all my roomates heard the balls slappin’ against her ass, my legend was secured. You can act like a bitch after that but it really doesn’t mean shit to me since we both know you were moaning with my dick inside you last night. That, my friends, is GAME before it was called that. Pull your head out of your ass with these terms and trying to put them in little cubicles for you to shame.
To summarize, -game works-, -game over-.
Note: In all instances where dark game is used. For all you Nice Guys there is the DO NOT ENGAGE option.
That should be obvious.
@Lokland#563.
These guys remind me of an old adage that seems appropriate: “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” Yeah, it’s a tool that can work. But holy SHIT if you’re looking for a quality ltr/marriage with a quality woman, is it the worst of all the workable tools to pick. (And I’m *not* a nice guy. I work really fucking hard at being a nice guy.)
Yeah, I suppose if you just absolutely HAD to screw some hot crazy falling knife, you’d need a hammer. But, uh, for the vast majority of men, there are better women, and better women FOR you….
@Sai#558.
One of the “recent classics” that’s been used in a lot of movies is music by Marta Sebastyen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD02V5Lb2sY
@Derpistan#556.
“Who else is going to teach you to respect yourself? ”
Narcissists don’t need any additional help respecting themselves.
For the rest of us, how about learning to do something HARD, and developing some skills? Or learning to box? Macho bullshit aside, I can take any spineless dweeb off the street and build him up so that after a year, he doesn’t care about getting punched in the face, let alone some non-quality-chick’s temper tantrum or attempt to manipulate.
Women are attracted to men who signal “good genes.” Looks are very important to women. They look for symmetry, strength, and signs of a strong immune system. If you don’t accept that, you’re kidding yourself.
@Russ
+1 to your entire comment at 563
With the added tid bit that sometimes screwing a “hot crazy falling knife” is a welcome respite from the drudgery that is normality.
Just don’t marry her.
BTW, I like the hammer and nail analogy.
I personally think of it as the kid who got a Bibi gun for Christmas and pegs himself in the eye (can’t remember the name of the movie).
If you are an o.g. boxing trainer I have no doubt you can make a man out of most of us. We have been trained by feminists that trying to appeal through muscles is lame. Yet we see it works every day. How to rectify the competing concepts?
Lokland.
Yup. Been there, done that, got the knife wound. Good women put out twice as much for ten times less drama. ymmv.
@derpistan.
No, I’m a guy who got the shit kicked outta me for ten years straight in a ring and would get WIPED by even the lowest of the amateurs…and woke up one day and realized “you know, actually, getting hit in the face is really good stress relief.”
@derp
“Yet we see it works every day. How to rectify the competing concepts?”
Realize that there is no competition. There is what works and there is what does not work.
How someone feels about it is irrelevant.
That applies equally to Susan-dark game and feminists-masculinity.
(Though unlike feminists Susan is actually…you know…into dudes who act like dudes.)
Honestly, I think “quit listening to feminists” is perfectly valid advice all on its own, and plenty to start rehabilitating guys who’ve been fed a line of shit — and women, too.
Its going to get better out there.
http://www.returnofkings.com/1512/is-the-feminist-movement-experiencing-a-meltdown
.
@Abbot. Yeah, the Futurist laid out the economics quite well and convincingly, I thought.
@VD
If she gives you a blow job that she’s not sure she wants to give you, the attraction is already eroding. Sex with resentment is a malignant thing. There is no possibility for a good marriage when dread is in play.
This is a misinterpretation of what I have shared here. I am actually very close to my father and see him as high value. I believe he was desperately unhappy with a bipolar wife, which is understandable. However, he never used the tactic of instilling dread. He is extremely charismatic, even now, and has always received a lot of attention from women. My mother was pissed because he enjoyed it, but the attention was a DHV. His soliciting it would have been a DLV.
Why would a man of high value ever need to instill dread?
Frankly, I cannot imagine living with this Hobson’s choice. How about the man in my life genuinely does care that I am in his life and openly professes that? I share that sense of gratitude and express it frequently myself.
Justified from a moral standpoint? Perhaps. But it’s a loser’s game. A War of the Roses. At that point, you might as well cut your losses and move on.
He said that he wants very much to see her, and gave her his schedule for the next three days. They have made a plan to see one another during that time.
@Susan#580: Right. So it’s way the hell too early for anybody to be bugging her yet.
@derpistan
Well there you go. Game is a 12 hour fix. You got balls deep and then kicked to the curb. You could look back on balls slappin’, but you knew it wasn’t real. She didn’t really like you.
Susan – thanks for the update, you got through to her ; clapclap.
“She didn’t really like you.”
A man would be lying if he said he never tried to punch above his weight, to borrow a fellow poster’s analogy. But you need something extra to punch above your weight. In my case I gamed someone accidentally, and only looking back 20 years later can I see what actually went down. But at least with the 3 Terrible R’s, I have a reason to genuflect what works, and what doesn’t, and why. I wasn’t being a dick to get in her pants (aka thinking ahead with game), I was being a dick because I was through. The only reason she fucked me is to deny the other woman I was going to fuck that night, to spite the other woman. THAT IS HOW CHICKS WORK. Edward Bernays ftw :/
There are actually women who aren’t into fucking men to spite other women, because they’re in relationships that are working. Even with my scandalous double digit count, I have never in my life had sex with a man for any reason other than that I wanted him badly.
I cannot imagine that being the “prize” in a game of female intrasexual competition is gratifying beyond the immediate physical release.
I was dumb, I actually thought she liked me and was going to treat me different the next day after fucking me, like I actually had a chance. It was only the next day that I realized that my only prize was the booby prize, a nice fuck. Silly Betas.
Susan: on another funny note, the woman at the next table that I got her number, I saw her at another concert six months later, she remembered me and came up to me, we dated for about two months before she told me I was a Goyim and she’s not allowed to marry a Goyim. That was that.
@derpistan
So the other woman was right – the woman at the next table thought you were hot. Pity about the religious difference…
I didn’t even know what the word Goyim was until then :/ Anyway I enjoy your blog (I did find it through the 3 Terrible R’s(tm) ), I’m glad you got through to one person (Anne). I’m impressed she was able to get past all the hazing and find some truth in 600 and counting responses. That makes me smile. I’ll be rooting for her (and him), which is unusual. Cheers
“So if I deceive a women with the intent to get laid, it’s ok – so long as I am not conscious of it. Perfect!”
My cad brother the natural does this all the time. He also instills dread, freezes out, and flirts with other women. But he just does it naturally, without thinking about it. Not Machiavellian at all…
This reminds me of the whole sausage analogy…we all love hot dogs as long as we don’t know the details of how they come to be.
I guess you gotta fake it till you make it. Then you won’t be faking it at all…
Beautiful, Intelligent or Sane, pick two.
Hmm. I’ll pick Beautiful and Sane. From my perspective there’s no difference between a 130 IQ and a 100 IQ, except the former thinks she’s intelligent.
Anne, as everyone is saying, if you actually want him to want you, eat that crow. He’ll walk otherwise.
@underdog
Yes. Because the intent makes clear whether you employing the tactics just to reach the goal, which is in itself moral – and therefore you probably would not use the tactics lightly.
Screaming at the child is bad thing, but it may be effective as temporary tactics when you badly need their attention. My son is trying to put a fork into a computer: scream, he throws the fork, tactics worked. However, since I used this tactic just as a last restort, you can be pretty sure that I don’t use it everyday. It does not make tactic good. That’s why intent always matters, as intent is the signal over the future uses of some dubious tactics.
@Russ in Tex
Yes, exactly. I think a lot of males have an inclination to build systems, which help understand the reality. This is a great thing actually, except when we start to overuse a system. If the system explains a lot and has a lot of inner logic, they guys tend to start explaining EVERYTHING in terms of that system, they tend to became blind to things which prove the system wrong, they tend to interpret reality in terms of their system.
It only gets worse with intteligent males, since they know they are intelligent, so they are pretty sure their system is good. Moreover, the more intelligent guy, the greater chance most of people he interacts with have lower IQ, hence the larger chance he become convinced he’s got it and when he meets a critique, he will going to assume that the critique is invalid because it surely was formulated by one of those idiots.
Hence, once a guy swallows the red pill, he is going to see everything in terms of game, and will ignore anything which is contrary to the game. E.g. woman can’t be attracted to beta’s; if woman is attracted to beta, then surely she is attracted to his alpha qualities or maybe she just want to use him. Even if a woman is atracted to beta, then she is not getting wet, so it does not really matter. And when most of woman don’t get wet for ANY sort of guy immedietely and they tend to explain that their attraction works differently, it’s because the woman don’t know themselves and it’s their hamster running.
Once you a logged in, you cannot leave.
@jason
Do you want to have high-IQ children?
Strange thing, I wanted yesterday to comment on one sentence Anne wrote in her letter, but had no time, and today I can’t find this fragment (or was it somewhere in comments? Or maybe I mixed taht with the previous letter from Karen?). Seems I started to have hallucinations
… But then I wanted to recommend to remove that sentence anyway 
.
Good thing for Anne is that she’s just 22. Her market value will raise for the next 8 years. Got plenty time to make mistakes. The only danger is that she will not learn from her mistakes, but she seems not to be that kind of girl.
ANyway, I find it amusing that from the comments here, the game seems to be about faking the behaviour normal guys in the past just had (like self-respect).
@Russ
my bad, it was late and I didn’t czech her nationality. too late to bed last night. in my defense, having listened to the pretty lady, it’s all greek to me.
(today is bad humour day, but then every day is bad humour day for me…and don’t say that you hadn’t noticed because I won’t believe you)
If she gives you a blow job that she’s not sure she wants to give you, the attraction is already eroding. Sex with resentment is a malignant thing. There is no possibility for a good marriage when dread is in play
You’re missing the point. Dread is a means of STIMULATING ATTRACTION. It is also a means of potentially fixing a marriage where the woman has already lost attraction. The calm, well-intentioned reason you tend to advocate is an ideal, to be sure, but for most people, it is not a practical reality. What do you advise when attraction is already shaky, Install Dread, Suffer in Silence, or Nexting? Because in some cases, those are the options, unless you can suggest another one. Pointing and calling “DLV, DLV” isn’t so much wrong as irrelevant.
This is a misinterpretation of what I have shared here. I am actually very close to my father and see him as high value. I believe he was desperately unhappy with a bipolar wife, which is understandable. However, he never used the tactic of instilling dread. He is extremely charismatic, even now, and has always received a lot of attention from women. My mother was pissed because he enjoyed it, but the attention was a DHV. His soliciting it would have been a DLV.
Have you not repeatedly brought up your father as an example of the evils of Dread? And now you’re saying that he never used the tactic? Your father didn’t just magically receive attention; no man does. He solicited it, even if only passively, and more importantly, he did not deflect it. What you’re saying here is that Dread is a DHV if it is unintentional and a DLV if it is intentional. That makes no sense, because Dread concerns EFFECT, not INTENT. Dread Game, like all Game, is the synthetic imitation of the natural. Your father naturally instilled Dread. But doing so intentionally and synthetically is no more a DLV than a successful neg or a successful application of kino can be considered a DLV.
To be sure, a failed attempt to intentionally instill Dread would be a DLV. Why? Because it is a failed EFFECT. But a successful attempt to intentionally instill Dread can only be a DHV. This should be obvious, because if it was not indicative of perceived higher value, it would not work.
It’s understandable why you would have a strong distaste for Dread. But I think you need to look closely at the strength of your distaste for it and recognize that you are not analyzing the tactic with your usual detachment. There is not inherent separation between self-respect and Dread. Those with a high degree of self-respect will tend to naturally instill Dread because they are self-sufficient. They genuinely don’t need the approval of others, which tends to make others anxious and even hostile. Those with less self-respect may need to instill it with intent.
ANyway, I find it amusing that from the comments here, the game seems to be about faking the behaviour normal guys in the past just had (like self-respect)
Do you still not understand what Game is? It is the intentional imitation of the naturally successful. Not the normal, the successful.
I’ll pick Beautiful and Sane. From my perspective there’s no difference between a 130 IQ and a 100 IQ, except the former thinks she’s intelligent.
The former is intelligent. The problem is that she thinks she’s a genius and smarter than everyone else, including her cognitive betters.
The former is intelligent. The problem is that she thinks she’s a genius and smarter than everyone else, including her cognitive betters.
Good point.
@Susan
“Women are attracted to men who signal “good genes.” Looks are very important to women. They look for symmetry, strength, and signs of a strong immune system. If you don’t accept that, you’re kidding yourself.”
Hugh Hefner, Donald Trump, Jay-Z (ugliest rapper ever) are all laughing at that comment.
If looks were important to women, then young, healthy looking guys who act like chumpy betas would be getting laid everywhere — but they are not (I believe most guys can back me up on this). Looks are not the defining factor when it comes to men, Susan. Behavior/status/dominance are.
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