I rarely post two letters from readers back to back, but I received an email today that is both time-sensitive and potentially instructive to readers.
I’ll begin with a confession. The real name of the writer is very unusual, and after reading her letter I had a hunch I wanted to confirm. Sure enough, she is indexed in Google images thanks to social media profiles. It is as I suspected. She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day. I don’t mean to objectify her, but I think she falls victim to a mentality that is common among beautiful women. It may sound counterintuitive, but beautiful women often have to make a special effort to land a good man, initiating intimacy, providing encouragement and offering reassurance along the way.
My advice would be the same in any case, but her looks are undoubtedly a factor in the dynamic between them.
Dear Susan,
Hi, your blog always gives such insightful advice on relationship issues, and I would love some right now because I’m in a difficult position with the first man I’ve liked in a long time. I’m 22, he’s 25.
I’ve been dating him for around two months now. I ended things with a guy this summer and was deeply depressed for a while, which is why I didn’t want to get emotionally attached too soon. There was a bit of imbalance – he took me out to nice dinners, walked me home, didn’t even make a move. When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.
I haven’t seen him in person for around 3 weeks. It’s sometimes been difficult matching our schedules (he’s working, I’m a student), and I have been travelling the past week. He said he wanted to take me to a lovely dinner the night I came back from an overseas trip. I was jetlagged when back and had a heavy lunch so I suggested a drink instead, and he accepted. I dozed off, got back to him a couple of hours later and said we could meet 45 mins later at which point it would be 10.45. He said it would be “a little too late” because he had to get up early for work, but we could meet the next day. I was pissed – that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me, he hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks, what guy says no to that because he’d get six hours rather than eight? I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.
So when I was out Thursday night I texted him (very late, early hours) asking if he was out too. For a weekday, I figured he might have been in bed. I got a reply the next morning. Friendly, as usual, but he hasn’t initiated anything since.
Worst part – Saturday night was a party hosted by a friend of his – an all night dinner and drinks. He asked me about a month ago and even convinced me to stay in town a far more days to attend. Come Saturday, I heard nothing. I’m just assuming he went to the party without me. I suppose most girls would text and go “what’s going on with that party??”. But I always assume a defensive position towards men – I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs. Plus, I did make an “initiative” Thursday night by texting first.
I was angry and in my irrational rage, I figured this was “finished from my side”, deleted him off facebook and deleted our text message history. That was yesterday, I assume he’s seen it by now, but he hasn’t said anything. I am twisting in agony trying to figure what the reason for his silence might have been… Whether someone said something about me. I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous, and I don’t think there is anything awful that may surface.
So as you can see I’m going out of my mind. I like the guy, and I know I acted irrationally when deleting him. But his behaviour was really schizo – he was all over me and seemed so genuinely interested, and then shut down on Saturday. I feel like it would be stupid to contact him now, it will seem as if deleting him was a provocation and now I’m “giving in”? I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand. Should I just wait it out?
Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him?
An ex boyfriend accused me of always causing unnecessary drama. If that seems the case, please let me know.
Anne
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you’re a regular reader, in which case you’ve seen my posts about avoiding players, and also my posts about the need for a woman to escalate emotionally when a man does get through her filter and she wants to be in a committed relationship with him.
I’m going to cut straight to the chase here.
You have been employing the Principle of Least Interest with such success that you convinced Stephen you are not interested in him. To be fair, you describe yourself as having been hurt fairly recently and feeling somewhat self-protective. It’s hard to escalate emotionally while deliberately delaying intimacy. Being introverted and not emotionally expressive makes this more challenging as well.
It sounds like Stephen was happy to go all out in pursuing you, putting in most of the effort. You already have a sense that you did not give him the reinforcement that would have helped to seal the deal early on, as you mention having regrets about remaining aloof, even after sex. However, I see some poor judgment calls here on your part within the last week or so that I don’t believe you fully recognize. At the risk of being very hard on you, I’m going to highlight them in hopes that you can learn from this experience, whether things work out with Stephen or not.
You did not act eager to reunite with him when you returned from Miami.
I understand that you were jet lagged, and I’m sure he did too. You might have rescheduled, explaining that you were dying to see him but wanted to be at your best. You could also have mentioned that you simply could not function without a couple of hours sleep, would he be amenable to a late drink?
Instead it sounds like you dismissed his plan because you were not particularly hungry (bad call) and then left him waiting and wondering until 10 p.m. That was not very considerate of his time, and it may have played a role in his declining at that point. Or he may have calculated that you would both have a much better time with less pressure by doing it the next day instead. Maybe he wanted to enjoy your company for an evening instead of racing home from the bar to have sex before an early alarm.
You felt rejected, so you punished him.
If a man is rejecting you, punishing him for doing so is not a good strategy for exciting his interest. Had you agreed to the next night, you would likely have had a passionate reunion. Instead, you told him you did not want to see him. His response that you should let him know indicates hurt feelings and hurt pride.
You sought to increase your control over him.
After turning him down, and without letting him know when you were available to see him, and how much you wanted to see him, you texted him while out late on a work night. This served to remind him that you are a carefree student who can be out and about getting attention from other men while he is required to get his sleep before another grueling day at the office. I imagine he woke in the morning, felt peeved, and his resentment grew throughout the day.
Note that you have still not texted to “let him know when you could see him.” You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.
You stubbornly waited for him to break.
You entered into a pissing match over who would blink first. It should have been you! Why do you always assume a defensive posture with men? Why are they required to do all the work? You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
Deleting him from facebook probably signalled to him that you have zero interest in him whatsoever, and want all reminders of your association gone.
In short, I don’t think his behavior has been schizo or the least bit unreasonable. I think you’ve been acting like a bit of a spoiled brat. (I say this with a maternal affection.) I don’t know whether this is salvageable, but if you really look at Stephen and see a potential father for your children, here is what I suggest you do:
Go crawling to him on your hands and knees.
Stephen,
I regret the way things have been between us for the last week. I accept responsibility for doing a very poor job of letting you know how much I wanted to see you upon my return. I have enjoyed our time together very much and I’d like to set things right. Are you free tomorrow night? Would you like to come over for a drink and we can talk about it?
Missing you,
Anne
If he is kind but says no, you’ll have time for soul searching. If he is a jerk and really was playing you in some way, he’ll be rude and unresponsive, in which case you just got rid of a bad guy. If he says yes, you’re back in the game. Respond graciously no matter what.
No more silent treatment, it’s time to make a little drama here (the good kind – as in, a dramatic gesture to surprise and delight him).
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I prefer to sit in the Garden with the great master (Epicurus), myself, but the Stoics are more accessible, and by a good margin, when it comes to discussions of ethics.
@Susan,
I don’t know how much I’m comfortable ‘giving’ in this scenario.
He had asked if I was going out one of these days, I said “maybe Saturday”. He had plans (Christmas party), but if I was out anyway we could meet up. All my friends have left town now so I really didn’t have the opportunity to go out. Also my phone died, I forgot to bring the charger, spent the entire day trying to find a new one, with no success. So if he texted me, there is no way of knowing. I ended up sending him a fb message instead (even though we’re not friends there…) saying I wasn’t going out and asking if he’s in town the coming week. The message is “seen” last night, but I have no reply.
Honestly, I’ll just wait it out but I am afraid of ending up in a scenario where my efforts is the only thing that is holding the ‘relationship’ up and I’m not interested in that. If he is gaming me now and this is his “new personality”, I don’t want to date that person.
Why, everyone is quite good at disagreeing and ignoring the point of anything I say today – I must be creepy.
Point 1: What seems to be lost is that the types of men who visit a comic-con are a lot more likely to be called creepy, both fairly and unfairly. Putting them together with some girls in tight cosplay costumes, seems like a disaster waiting to happen, rather than a good idea to get people to date.
Point 2: If it’s OK for women to disparage not only men in general in a private group, but their own boyfriends, then its fair game if men do it too. I was always taught that “locker-room talk” was juvenile, boorish, and disrespectful, so I would remove myself from situations. (I do draw the line, however, at not taking poorly about my own girlfriend/spouse. I won’t go there even if women do.)
This has nothing to with how to you treat people who specifically treat you poorly (duh, that’s obvious), its about your attitude to the other sex in general. Personally, I think it’s a race to the bottom, but since that race exists whether we like it or not, it’s better to be in that race than lose it.
That’s why I like reading HUS so much…
@Just1Z
I wish I could see The Borgias, any series, but no, the TV here in SA is up to shit. I’ve got to take a chance on the internet (*cough*) or just plain buy a DVD set. It’s gonna be expensive.
In that genre though, a series that I was crazy about, were The Winds of War and War & Remembrance. Their intro was some of the best music I ever heard.
Here it is.
And no, I didn’t read the novels. I should though.
Have you ever read any Alexander Kent btw ?
*******************************************************************
@Russ in Texas.
-I don’t know how much I’m comfortable ‘giving’. I don’t want to date that person.-
There.
@Susan
“It’s natural to feel shame when being singled out, even by worthless scum, but it’s important to develop a thick skin. I know you’ve done that.”
But they were just using it as a weapon, yeah?
this is the best reason to laugh at them. otherwise you are giving worthless idiots power over you by using the kind of word that should be restricted to six year olds.
Sassy makes an interesting point with,
“I’m nice enough to not call a man creepy to his face though. I can’t imagine what would happen if I ever did.”
Those women were assuming that their attack on Lokland could be made without any consequences to them. Luckily, whatever ‘creepy’ is supposed to mean, Lokland wasn’t one.
But what if they were right? and what if they couldn’t actually count on other men around them to protect them if he went postal? these women that walk around bitching about ‘teh patriarchy’ and insulting men at random are actually relying on men in general to remove the consequences of their actions. they should stop writing cheques that they are not willing to cash personally – that was considered a manly virtue, taking responsibility for your own actions.
I really think that the world would be a better place with a little more mutual respect. and without dumb bints putting down other human beings to boost their already overblown misplaced feelings of self worth. I’ve seen enough comments on HUS to know that these women would do the same to other women who were not ‘of the herd’. again, relying on the victim not to respond.
GirlWritesWhat – “feminism, y’all gotta own this sh*t”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaT9utl4Ys&feature=youtu.be
@Anne
I don’t like the meetup scenario. I’m not saying it signifies a lack of interest, necessarily – many, many young guys use this approach when they are truly interested. I’m out, you’re out, let’s meet up. It’s the Principle of Least Interest at work again – we can both pretend we’re not invested and see if we “bump into” one another.
In view of your recent experience, however, it may be that he is wary and playing his cards close to the vest. I agree that the only thing you can do is wait it out. It is very possible that he saw your message on a Saturday night and will respond soon with a suggestion for the coming week. But you should not initiate again. You sent a message, it was received. No further effort from you is required or even advisable. The ball is in his court.
Re : Creepiness.
Consider this :
A guy and a girl get on at a tube stop close to my house. The girl sits next to me and the guy sort of looks at her, at me, and then hesitantly sits across from me. I mistakenly thought they were together and that they wanted to sit next to each other. So I said to the guy:
Me: ‘Hey buddy, you sit here, I’ll swap places, you can sit with each other’
Guy: ‘Ha ha. Thanks. But we’re not together’.
Me: ‘Hahaha. I do apologise. God, I”m sorry, I thought you were together, you sort of walked on like you were really good friends’.
You would have thought that would have been the end of it, but for whatever reason the girl then said to me:
Girl: ‘Why don’t you go and fuck some shit. I have had a bad night and I don’t want you and your dirty shit in my face’.
Me: ‘Is that a quote from an Audrey Hepburn film’.
A few people smirked. The girl stormed off. Feminism in action. A Spice Girl. A woman who is ‘confident’ and ‘knows what she wants’.
For about 5 minutes myself and the rest of the carriage, the ice now broken, all end up talking to each other and the conversation hinges much around how women these days are often drunk, aggressive and unattractive in their manner. There is an older lady nearby and I see her gravely nodding at some of the points.
My tube pulled up at my stop and I got off and then out of nowhere the girl ran up to me on the platform and shouted in my face….
Girl: ‘I’ll have you know I am better educated than you. I went to Oxford’.
Me: Hands in pockets to demonstrate absolute non threat to anyone watching. ‘I’m not interested. You’re being drunk and aggressive and I just don’t want to know you’.
Girl: ‘You’d be lucky to even get near me. You’re nothing, I’m better than you’.
Me: ‘I hear you. I’d like to stay away from you. You’re aggressive and I don’t like it. Please leave me alone’.
Girl: ‘STAY AWAY FROM ME, STAY AWAY FROM ME’.
She stormed ahead of me and ran up to the first official looking man she could see. Some tube workers in ‘High Vis’ vests.
Girl: ‘That guy there just attacked me on the platform, get him arrested. Get him. HE’S JUST ATTACKED ME’.
I carried on walking slowly out of the tube station. Hands in pockets. Deliberate in all movements and very calm. I am just lucky that the guys weren’t Police or London Underground station staff, but Polish lads working on the Northern Line. They just look at her blankly as she tried to get them to arrest me or attack me. She realized they weren’t interested and ran out of the tube station, maybe to look for a policeman, I don’t know.
She seemed perfectly happy to lie in order to get me in as much serious trouble as possible to make her feel better for her nose being put out of joint.
Wave bye-bye to him Anne.
he clearly read your games, returned the favour and you don’t like it.
he’s better off without you. and worse, he knows it.
I can’t find an image, but I have seen a poster saying something along the lines of, “However beautiful the woman, there is always a guy somewhere who got sick of putting up with her shit”
The ever wise Dr Tara Palmatier – not saying that this applies, necessarily, just food for thought
10 Reasons You Can’t Communicate with a Narcissistic or Borderline Woman
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/10-reasons-you-cant-communicate-with-a-narcissistic-or-borderline-woman/
Cappy Cap was informaive and amusing too
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/dealing-with-female-hysterics.html
but, you are young…things could well work out your way, just not with this guy (as far as I read your story)
@Anacaona
The theory is that even if more women are aware of Game that won’t make then less attractive look at Athol and his wife as other’s bloggers whose female SO are aware it seems to not really matter unless the woman has a personal vendetta against it.
Mike, starting CTAs frequently have the problem that you mention re: lack of granularity in position sizing. You really want to be in a position where you can demand large enough minimum account sizes that this becomes less of a problem.
With smaller accounts, particularly in volatile markets, your position sizing calculation will often spit out something like, “Go long .75 Aussie dollar contracts”. You end up either taking a full contract so that the account can be in the trade (and taking on more risk than you want to) or skipping the trade entirely. Both are bad; we had a lot of this type of stress when we started because we were new and couldn’t demand large enough minimum accounts. With the rise of the mini contracts, you do have more flexibility with some markets and smaller accounts, but you really want to have adequately funded accounts to play this game.
Some firms deal with this by doing pools, but this can get frustrating because you frequently will have an investor who is liquid and wants to get started right now, another who will be unwinding some stuff and who will be ready to fund a trading account in six months, yet another who keeps putting you off…
You also get situations where a guy will say something like, “Trade everything on this list except the energy complex—I already have exposure to that through another fund.” So individual managed accounts can give you some flexibility in terms of bespoke tailoring the portfolio universe to a client’s specific needs, and some guys really like that.
Re: Japan. I know well the folly of geopolitical prediction, but this situation has reached such a state of demographic and economic criticality that I think we will see a sovereign default scenario playing out in Japan. Their balance sheet is just so bad that an increase in borrowing costs of about 300 basis points will leave them unable to pay the interest on their debt, even using 100% of central tax revenue. Italy’s 10-year cost basis went up 100 basis points and that was enough to create full-blown crisis, and Japan’s predicament is far worse in many ways. It’s the sad, logical conclusion of the ultimate Keynesian experiment.
The conventional wisdom is that they can and will print with abandon and nuke the yen to try to get out of this, will suffer 20%+ inflation for a few years, and then will have a reset opportunity having destroyed the life savings of many vulnerable people. Certainly we are hearing about extraordinary efforts to this effect (“unlimited stimulus” and “3% inflation targeting”). I suppose that it’s going to be a drag race between printing press-fueled “growth” in tax revenues and rising interest rates. Their balance of trade has been deteriorating and several sharp HF managers think this will be the catalyst for an interest rate jump, with the interest rate jump in turn triggering the restructuring event after approx. 6 months of wild fiscal flailing and politicos being fired/resigning.
We all know that the default will be called something benign, almost pleasant—a “technical restructuring” or a “maturity-enhancement opportunity for bondholders” or whatever. But I think it will still constitute a CDS trigger event and then all hell is going to break loose.
What do you think?
On another note:…VD: new novel is excellent! I’ve been really enjoying it. I’d like to see you turn your hand to a modern techno-thriller at some point!
@Justiz
Although a bit brutal in your way of putting things, +1. I give it the same reading. la petite comtesse du 16ème n’est pas prête de changer.
Creepy isn’t always evolutionarily hard-wired, it’s also socially defined.
For example, how acceptable it is to touch people during normal conversation, and what “personal space” is can vary widely by the culture.
If some Spanish guy moves to the United States and is playing by Spanish social norms, he is going to be standing closer and touching you a lot more.
Calling this guy a creep because he is violating your personal boundaries strikes me as hilarious. I can understand feeling uncomfortable, but he’s playing by a different set of rules. That’s not “creepy” and the guy doesn’t deserve to be treated like a predator.
Particularly when plenty of actual predators get laid like tile.
@Danien
chui d’accord, je te comprends.
Marellus adds a well timed comment. The ‘lady’ assumes that she can throw accusations around without regard for the consequences for the guy. Her feelings have been hurt, someone has to pay.
‘Over here’ women do occasionally actually get sent to prison for false accusations. not for very long, but hey that’s more justice than available in many other places. also their accusations are made anonymously in the press, whereas the guy’s name is fair game – he can be destroyed whether he is innocent or not.
@Underdog
You have a point. But I think Game is headed for increased MSM exposure, and then there will be scandals questioning its credibility, until it retreats and reinvents itself on the fringes, yet again.
@Marellus,
I suspect definitely for those of us to whom pushups bras are DLV/unattractive, for example. For the low-self-awareness-crowd, I see little effect.
My mother was a victim of Principle of Least Interest; spent her whole life being unhappy with the universe for never giving her those things that he couldn’t risk to ask for.
@Marellus
As a married woman I don’t take flowers from men other than my husband, but thank you for the gesture
It’s already there.
@ Susan
Yes that’s what I figured.
To be fair, in my original text to him I told him when I’d be back in town, and he was the one asking to get together here. He asked me if I was going to the ball or the Christmas party, and I said no (the “ball” is for people in this city and our part of town, he probably assumed I was invited, but I don’t know them). That’s when he said we could meet after I was going out.
I know my deleting him was a total overreaction, but I don’t think it should be a dealbreaker. I took your advice and initiated with him – as you say, the ball is on his court, otherwise I would be artificially holding this ‘relationship’ up. At least I would have wanted to meet him so that I could explain why I was upset to begin with, in case he didn’t know. Men have acted childish with me before, but you can overlook a mistake if you really like someone. It’s only been 24 hours – maybe I’m being paranoid.
The men of HUS are probably cheering at the idea of him never contacting me again – without knowing any of us. One small victory for the bitter male population.
It’s only been 24 hours. Yes, you’re being paranoid. Relax and enjoy your Christmas.
Game as Mystery defined it has been mainstream for quite some time. Every girl in America knows what a “neg” is now. But game as in RSD and beyond are not mainstream and most likely will never make it mainstream. It’s brilliant, really. All the guys who want to learn game will eventually find RSD and Roissy and whatever new crap is out there. While all the girls will be looking out for fur hats and platform boots and badly executed routines thinking that’s what “game” is.
@Anne
Well I am hoping he does contact you, and that the two of you have a chance to talk it through. Having it fizzle now would be unfortunate, but as I said in the post, if that happens I hope you will take this opportunity to reflect on what you might have done differently. You’re only 22, at an age where we all make mistakes. I made some big ones at that age that would no doubt have men here calling for my head. None of us knows you.
Take what you find useful from the thread and discard the rest.
@Anne
24 hours during Christmas week! The normal rules around timing don’t apply. I’m with Russ. Also, I don’t expect Stephen to react with eagerness. He’s not gaming you if he fails to request an immediate meeting. If he’s smart, he’ll let you stew for a bit. Just saying. If he had contacted me, I would definitely advise him to avoid putting himself in a position where he is taken for granted again.
The young women I know are all well acquainted with the basics of Game. They may not know the PUA jargon, but the tactics are widespread by guys everywhere. I recall my son and his friends talking about them at age 17 in 2005 after reading The Game.
It’s also evident that most of the female commenters are well acquainted with the moves when they show up here initially.
@Marellus
sorry, got distracted cooking my roast beef, roast parsnips, brussell sprouts and tatties and mixed veg and gravy…and then eating it – mmmmm mmmm mmm mmm mmmmm
fizzy perry during the cooking and Shiraz during the eating
life is good even though the main rail line is washed out, the flood alerts map is basically the lit up map of England and Wales, and the idiots doing their xmas shopping have endured the queues that they deserve.
Anyway, Alexander Kent looks good, is this one recommended?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Kings-Name-Alexander-Kent/dp/0099528266/
I read about half of the Master and Commander / Aubrey Maturin series (ten out of twenty-one books) before temporary burnout
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Commander-Captain-Surprise-Aubrey-Maturin-Chronicles/dp/0007319304/
It also expanded my French with, “tes moeurs crapuleuses… tu cherches a corrompre mon paresseux… va donc, eh, salope… espèce de fripouille,”. These sentences proved invaluable in my day to day life en Provence. Well, maybe not, but they had me in stitches for a while (see below for context and Damien for the translation).
REALLY good reading, but I over-egged the pudding by reading them consecutively…I will be back. As an example of the humour;
(Jack = Russell Crow’s character in the movie, Stephen = the surgeon / naturalist)
I really do recommend the books, they are full of realism, history, hunmour and drama.
@Merellus – fave theme musicy type stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USW5adqt5Oo
two steps from hell – heart of courage
the visuals include a little Daenyrs (sp?) from GOT to me (non-expert)
rousing stuff. not my normal stuff, but I bought it when I heard it.
also
two steps from hell – freedom fighters (“used in the cinematic trailer for the Star Trek movie”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJm6b-o2pTM
with the foot of the Tour Eiffel in the backdrop I believe. (Eiffel Tower in Paris)
Just feel the blood flow…
Sorry about mis-spelling your name…I did mention perry (pear cider) and Shiraz, did I not?
@Lokland
Did you say or do anything? You should have replied in a loud voice “there’s an ugly/fat/anorexic chick in front of me.”
@Susan
The chubby chick should have cut the power cable to the house.
@Anne
Did you ever apologize for deleting him on facebook? If not, and if it were me, that would still grate on me as a very immature, mean or inappropriate things to do.
Regarding what happens when knowledge of game amongst men becomes widespread, I came across a post by GritArtisan on his blog called “Santa Claus isn’t real, but Game is”
(nothing really racy in it, I don’t think that anyone here would find the post objectionable, but I’ll let those that want to find it, google it. I don’t know about the rest of the blog as I am not a regular there)
emphasis mine
@Anne
Since I am writing what I believe to be good advice I think you can infer that I am wishing you the best with him. And if it doesn’t work out with him the lessons that you learn from this and how to both trust more and emotionally escalate with men and even just treat them with a bit more decency will serve you very well. I will come across as criticizing you somewhat but don’t take that personally. We all (I too) make mistakes and the question is whether we’ll learn from them or not.
I recall you texting him and saying something to the effect that you were sorry for being flaky. Did you ever address deleting him from Facebook? If not, then that’s going to loom as the unspoken elephant in the room.
Reviewing the earlier happenings:
It sounded like before that that he really liked you but when you left him hanging for a couple of hours expecting to hear from you about when and where to get a drink and then you were not being willing to meet up with him the next few days after he said it was too late (either because he really did have to work or he had grown tired of waiting so long for you to respond) that he was disappointed and just didn’t think you were that into him. I imagine this would have compounded his feeling neglected by you not offering him coffee or breakfast in the morning when he would stay at your place.
Then when you deleted him from Facebook that must have seemed to him like you were not interested, fickle, or worse. I say that because that is how I would feel if someone I had gone out with for a few weeks with and had sex with did that.
I would still like the woman probably but also be very wary and unless she addressed the situation enough to make me realize what happened and that the deleting me from facebook and overall aloofness were mistakes she was sorry about then I wouldn’t open up to her much. If I got a message on facebook, the very facebook she deleted me from, I would think, “what the fuck is she thinking? She deletes me and still writes me here?”
I disagree that the ball is in his court. I think it’s still in yours and though you did a good thing in saying you were sorry for being flaky that you haven’t done enough to show that you are sufficiently sorry for your somewhat entitled behavior and that he can really trust you with his heart again.
Since he said he wanted to see you again I think he probably still likes you but is really feeling wary. The ball is still in your court. Good luck.
@Anne
I may be missing some additional information about you addressing things with him when you said sorry for being flaky. So, if I am missing something feel free to fill me in.
And, I am not trying to attack you. I’m simply trying to present how I would feel if I (and other men I know) were in that situation, based on my limited knowledge of the circumstances.
Assuming he still likes you (and I think he probably does, or at least to some extent) then I think he is just being wary.
@Susan
I think game hit its peak popularity around 2008 when that VH1 show was in its 2nd season. I had the misfortune of being a newbie and practicing MM right around that time and quite a few girls caught on when I ran around asking them the brush or floss question and tried to read their palms. Interestingly, I’ve never had a single hard rejection from girls who called me out on it. Most of them instead tried to keep me around to learn more.
One of my most memorable nights was meeting this HB10 who caught on and asked if I knew any of Mystery’s magic tricks (I didn’t) she then “isolated” herself with me until her coworkers came and got her. I was a dumb noob at the time and never learned how to escalate further so she took the initiative and invited me to go with them for pizza. She eventually lost interest at the restaurant because I never sexually escalated. I was too busy pissing my pants because she also happened to be one of my first number closes. I ended up stalking her modeling page for the next 2 months and she eventually appeared in Playboy just like she said she would. My eyes opened soon after that.
@Marellus
That was a rather sickening display by that woman on the tube (and if it were a man behaving like a jerk I’d call him out too).
Basically, that woman serves as a template of how women SHOULD act: do the exact opposite and make your attitudes the exact opposite and you will be a breath of fresh air to men.
I don’t know what percentage of women are that bad–extreme bitchiness. I suspect it would be a lower percent, maybe 10%. Probably another 30% have a somewhat entitled and bitchy attitude but don’t feel as strongly as her or explode like that. Nonetheless, whatever the %, this minority of entitled and bitchy women really does upset the market and provides a huge opportunity for giving and pleasant women (like Hope of the last few years, but not Hope in her late teens
) to have huge relationship/marriage value.
@ Susan
What do the young women think of game and what it consists?
Most women seem to misunderstand the concept of a neg….though that’s okay, most men seem to as well. Maybe even I do.
@MikeC @Bastiat Blogger
I love reading your convo’s.
If the Japanese Bond Market implodes, what’s next ? Will this usher in a new bull market in the Nikkei. I mean will money flee bonds and go hide in (good) stocks ?
Other than that, if the Yen manages to devalue, will that not improve the Yen value of their US Bonds, and hence their balance sheet ?
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@Ana.
As an unmarried man, I’ve come to realize that one must enquire about the lady’s marital status … only AFTER the flowers has been given.
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@Russ
My mother almost got divorced, because another (married) woman was trying to make a move on my father. She never understood why this was happening, until another woman paid her a visit, and told her what was really happening. Before that, my mother and this homewrecker were the best of friends.
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@SayWhaat #918
There you go again; trying to haul me over a barrel … ai yai yai … very well … I’ll play along, but that barrel had better look pretty, with lots and lots and lots of green cushions surrounding it, and even more of them covering it. And I want pictures of cute little pink elephants on each every one of those cushions. I want to listen Mozart. I want a bucket full of cool beers.
And I want you to look absolutely ferocious when you hand one of those beers to me.
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@Just1Z
Good on yer mate. When I heard this song, I couldn’t believe it came out of an Anime. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33pw2nEAHgc
I’m reading 1Q84 right now. It starts slowly, but lemme tell you, that book is the tits !
@Hansolo
This.
The question is this though : Where do you get lots of good women that’s single ? Church ? I don’t like the church. Bars ? In bars I just get drunk and write poetry.
So where then ?
That’s a song from an anime soundtrack? woah
I’m off, cheers all
@Marellus
I think churches do have some of them. Back when I was a Mormon at most of the singles congregations there was usually anywhere from an even ratio in man-heavy places of the country to a 3:2 women to men ratio (in Boston) and even though there were a few bitches the vast majority of the women were anywhere from somewhat nice to really nice, as they were constantly trying to be better people.
I think a good online strategy would be for women to blatantly advertise that they are sweet and feminine yet know what they want, have goals and aren’t pushovers.
Marellus, I don’t get you. Like, at all. Lol.
@Marellus,
I was flat-out seduced by a falling knife. My wife forgave the issue, but we had a long sit-down going over what had happened that she got her claws in to begin with, and me figuring out where my weak spots were (turns out I’ve got one or two good buttons that can be easily pushed if I’m not watching for them).
@ Russ:
Can you elaborate on those weak spots? I suspect that intrasexual competition will get even more fierce for those women who do get married. What sort of things should women be looking for to prevent homewreckers from closing in?
@SayWhaat,
This will sound fairly strange coming from a man who’s got huge Macchiavellian tendencies, but I also have a very strong weak spot for the truly unfortunate. This was a person I’d known long enough, but not quite well enough, to see through manipulative stuff, particularly given that the individual is basically a pathological liar. She had my number, but I didn’t have hers. Bad combo.
Those people have to simply be avoided- we’re wired to not assume that EVERY thing a person says is a lie, and this makes people easy to manipulate. Recognizing one or two truths bent does NOT inoculate you from three or four more that slip in under the radar.
(you know the kind of cardboard villain who won’t hesitate to monkeystomp a village, but stops to adopt one of the orphans, Jackson-style? Yeah, whenever somebody comes across an example like that, friends of mine pipe up with “hey, Russ, just read about you in a book.”)
@ADBG
Contrary to what one often hears or reads online, the women I know accept Game as normal male behavior, and will even giggle and admit it works. Basically, they seem to welcome the idea of guys not being supplicating, and ruining a perfectly awesome physical attraction! I’ve also seen their frustration when a guy is too eager – “Ugh, he’s got no game! He texted me 6 times while I was getting my hair cut!” So I don’t buy that women dislike men having more control. After all, the reason Game is effective is that women like it when men are dominant. (Obviously, I’m not talking about feminist types here – they don’t want men to have anything.)
The neg is very misunderstood, and also much abused. I think it’s very difficult to get right – it requires wit, timing, and a great ability to read people. Most men go way overboard and say something downright insulting. The worst one I have ever heard about from a girl in my focus group was “There’s spinach in your teeth.”
HanSolo, funny thing is, in my teen’s and early 20′s, I had no “bitch shield” but a “shy shield.” I would be very nice and pleasant to anyone who spoke to me, but I would also be painfully socially awkward. I was quite unaware of social dynamics and never noticed guys who checked me out or anything, plus I never went to bars or clubs. I felt ugly, and my self-estimation of my SMV back then was like, 3 or 4. Which is just as well, because it kept me out of trouble.
Thanks for elaborating, Russ.
There was a similar discussion a few threads back about the appropriate-ness of asking an SO to end communication with a “friend” who appears to be a threat to the relationship (e.g. a former FWB). The consensus on that thread was that it was a deal-breaker for any SO to maintain such a friendship in light of the past sexual relationship between the SO and said friend.
However, we’re admittedly in our own bubble here at HUS. Outside of HUS, I have a couple friends who told me that insisting my SO end communication with a prior sex partner was a “red flag” — it made me look like a crazy girlfriend.
I’ll admit that it worries me to hear these stories of men who are so easily “stolen” from their wives. I would like to think that I can trust the man that I love to know what boundaries are in a marriage — or even just a regular LTR. I want to be a wife…not a warden.
Hope, my wife was the same way. I knew we had potential b/c we argued CONSTANTLY, from scholarly theses to which kinds of cherry were better. My luck was that nobody else was chasing her behind those Birth Control Glasses.
Russ is really impressing me. Former player, married a virgin, cheats with a free pass. That’s credibility there.
@SayWhaat,
Well, “stolen” wasn’t quite so likely, though she did try it. More to the point was her keeping me from doing something truly vile and permanent to the…unpleasant person…. once I realized that I’d been played. I ended the affair and broke the news of it out, but hadn’t realized just how far the hooks had gotten in for another couple weeks.
Most of the issue from your end, SW, would be to watch for bad communication. She-wench was only able to slip in the stilettos b/c the wife and I already had developed some very flawed habits on both our ends. End story is that the marriage was actually improved (markedly). Paranoia isn’t really a good response — just make sure you’re both OBVIOUSLY happy, and make it a priority to fix it if not, rather than letting it fester.
OTC – Yeah, no. “Forgave” isn’t an equal sign for “was pleasant and/or painless.”
@ Hope re: bitch/shy shields
I’ve talked to my boyfriend about his initial impressions of me when we first began dating. He mentioned that I have a “wall”. After one of my girlfriends brought this guy back to our apartment (allegedly so that he could meet me — he was a greasy-looking law student who was definitely way more into her despite the fact that she had a boyfriend), she told me, “you laugh and crack jokes and it seems like everything is normal, but I also wonder what it is that you’re really thinking.”
In my case, I think it’s more self-protective, and maybe judgmental. I’ll crack jokes, I’ll smile, but I’ll only let a few get close. My boyfriend was really surprised the day I let my “wall” come down. I wonder how often I put (keep?) it up, and whether or not that’s a good thing… : /
Russ, the “free pass” isn’t from your wife (I aint that dumb) it’s from the judgement of others.
@ OTC: Well I think the lesson is to 1) make sure you are very happy with your partner, and 2) make sure you aren’t marrying a player/slut.
Though that’s still not a guarantee…
@OTC: If so, I think it’s because I’m far and away my own harshest critic. High (VERY high) Macchiavellian, unusually LOW narcissist. It’s an odd combo, so I tend to be a bit of a weirdo, and not somebody you’d want to try to emulate.
Also who said anything about a free pass from judgment? Lol.
@HanSolo
Thanks for the message.
I agree that the facebook remove is the “elephant in the room”. However, I don’t know how to address that right now. Even though it’s my fault, I do want to mention why I was upset, and some of these things are best done in person.
Now he has my message, with a question, so I feel like he needs to reply to that first. If he wants to see me again, I can’t see why he won’t? He replied cheerily to my message on Wednesay and I haven’t done anything awful since. He always poses questions in his texts, even meaningless ones, to keep the conversation going. If he was trying to let me down gently, I don’t think he’d bother.
He’s probably thinking what you’re saying “she’s deleted me off fb, and now she’s messaging me here?”. Maybe that’s why he’s hesitant. I have his brother on fb (from years ago, never speak to him). He’s even online. I wonder if they talk about me.
I am of course afraid not to hear back, but he doesn’t seem like a person who just cuts off and ignores. I can be rash and overly emotional too, but if I had been dating a guy I care about (to the point of sleeping together) I would not ignore a specific text asking to hang out, I would say something.
Anne,
It’s a conundrum, but it’s also Christmas Week. I’d relax, enjoy the holiday, and wait. There’s lots of point-specific advice us outsiders COULD give you, but we lack the background and contextual knowledge to do so (such as, does he know that you slept with him because you cared for him? Given the “coffee issue,” and given the amount of data those of us in the thread possess, that strikes me as something he might perceive as an open question.
You did, I hope, try to undelete him, or however that works, on FB.
@ADBG
I get the impression your email went something like “The quality of our relationship has degraded recently. I feel ill-used because of your bad behaviors X (like the time you did such-and-such a thing), Y and Z. I am displeased with how long this has gone on.”
That doesn’t sound Dread-ful to me. It sounds like the clearest, most honest message somebody could give without grabbing their SO’s shoulders and yelling “I’M TIRED OF BEING DISRESPECTED.”
“In the United States, if you are growing your own food on your own land for your own consumption, you are engaging in activity that materially affects interstate commerce and can be regulated by the federal government.”
!
I did not know that. Thanks for the warning.
@INTJ
It’s not like you said I was a terrorist/feminazi/destined to fail at everything, so it’s OK.
(You could do a lot better, though. Dr. F. and I still have a LOT of progress to make, and I don’t live anywhere near Texas.)
@OffTheCuff
“It’s a bad idea, thats why. For one, sexual zoning. Then, the women would think the men are creeps.”
Aw… I wish to Crom people would/could treat conventions like dating sites. At least I’d know he wouldn’t judge me for… never mind. How can you call somebody else creepy when you’re dressed as zombie Snow White?
“Does knowing women wear push-up bras and get fake tits make a set of titties hiked up on display in a sexy corset less effective at attracting men?”
Wait, I thought when women didn’t try to look their best they were lazy/unattractive.(?)
“In that same bar, possibly on the same night, some guy came up to me a delivered a nuclear neg to me. In reading in the ‘sphere it’s become clear to me that his objective was to pick me up, but my reactions wasn’t tingles, it was WTF?!”
That’s been my experience with PUAs and guys who wanted to imitate them. I thought they hated me.
(plus I don’t like for male or female strangers to touch me)
Re: broad on train
http://images.seemsgood.com/facepalm.jpg
@Anne
I have no experience to draw from, but I hope you have a good Christmas and do your best to be happy with this guy, or find someone else to be happy with.
Add him back on Facebook, feel free to add something like, “sorry, mea culpa, I goofed.”
As for explaining your actions? Not sure that’s the greatest idea. Have to say maximum peace comes with less explanations.
I think the Comic Con people and the anime convention people would be perfect assortative mating counterparts. There were a lot of chubby Sailor Moons who would probably love to get approached. I think the main problem would be getting the people to actually talk to each other.
@Anne
“Even though it’s my fault, I do want to mention why I was upset …”
Sometimes, the “apologize and explain” route is inferior to a simple apology. I guess my experience has been that the explanation can easily become something that negates the apology by seeking to justify your actions/emotions (or is really a disguised request for an apology from the other person.) If it were me, I would be happy to hear from him and would focus on that point forward unless he took the initiative and wanted to rehash how things went awry.
“Because it risks nothing and is often predicated upon defending one’s pride rather than admitting fault and seeking forgiveness, the ‘apologize and explain’ route is almost always inferior to a simple apology.”
There, ftfy.
@Hope 945
Thanks for elaborating. Can you just clone 50 of you now?
@Anne
Dunno if I count as one of the “men of HUS” but I don’t know you and don’t wish you any ill will at all (on Christmas? c’mon man…). You’re learning emotional self control and you are beginning to recognize what’s going on in your own head. Many people aren’t all that willing to cop to their own missteps like that. As for your dating situation someone above said “Sometimes, the “apologize and explain” route is inferior to a simple apology”. I cosign this. If a girl acts this way with me, a simple apology that demonstrates that she knows what she did and takes responsibility for overreacting, without making any excuses, would be more than enough, and would make you very reasonable. Many guys (and probably your guy) know that women are emotional, so no need to belabor the point. For me, a key to a girl being a relationship prospect, is that she does think about her actions, and an apology shows that.
@ Jason:
I agree with this.
From past experience I know that when you receive a message from someone who is not your friend Facebook can treat the message differently according to your privacy settings. Meaning Stephen may not have gotten a email notification that he received a message from you.
Mail from non-friends gets lumped into “other mail”. An Ex tried contacting me once and I didn’t see the message from him for months. (Not that I cared to respond, but in your case you want to hear back from your guy!)
On a side note, I don’t see the point of maintaining Principle of Least Interest at this point. You want to continue to see him and have already slept together. It’s time to piss or get off the pot — either emotionally escalate or this relationship won’t develop farther. Instead of keeping score, speak from your heart and say what you mean to say.
That’s my $.02. As always, your mileage may vary.
@Iggles
I thought about this because it has happened to me – but it says “Seen 9pm” on the bottom on the message – which FB has now launched to let you know when messages have been read.
I am still torn whether to add him again, because I feel like it might be ‘too much’ all at once from my side. I sent him a message, it has a question (not an urgent one though), I think he should reply if he still is interested. He was enthusiastic Wednesday, and I don’t know what would have changed since then.
@HanSolo
“Did you say or do anything? You should have replied in a loud voice “there’s an ugly/fat/anorexic chick in front of me.””
I won.
No worries.
Knowing every bartender, waitress, bouncer, DJ and owner were helpful. Knowing half the patrons was more helpful.
I think the clincher was my blonde friend (one I’ve mentioned before) who is smokin’ hot coming up putting her hands around my neck and asking if everything was okay as she pecked me on the cheek (over the railing to the sidewalk).
Those women lacked enough social pull (i.e. HB points) to touch me.
The head bouncer (good buddy) told them to get lost.
Wouldn’t have happened if she hadn’t screamed it for half the neighbourhood to hear. I’ll take an insult from a no body without blinking but an attempt at public embarrassment will not go unnoticed.
I didn’t get everyone to stare though. That was all on her.
Ohh and no. I didn’t say or do anything.
I was standing a few feet behind them texting my buddy )the bartender) to come let me in.
@Susan
“Obviously, the only thing to do is ignore such people.”
Or up the ante and beat them at their own game.
“I’m sure it’s no consolation, but a young woman I know was recently turned away from a frat party at the door because “no lardasses allowed.” She is overweight, but not obese – just chubby.”
That is not appropriate. Thats merely a lack of basic decency.
“It’s natural to feel shame when being singled out, even by worthless scum, but it’s important to develop a thick skin. I know you’ve done that.”
Lol.
No its not.
If someone were to single me out for being bald or fat (I am neither) I would not be ashamed.
If someone were to single me out for being short (I am) I do feel slightly ashamed.
Shame is dependent upon a) truth, b) caring about others opinions
I am short. There are negative correlations associated with that. There is no reason I should not be ashamed about it.
I would feel no shame at being called bald merely confusion.
Being called a creep (especially by someone whom I was only transiently aware of) was more of a comical in a wtf? situation. It would have made an excellent movie scene if I had looked around after I realized she was looking in my direction.
No shame.
Just pointing out that creep is not just a word used to display uncomfortableness but an actual tool(weapon) used in an attempt to gain social proof.
I would suspect that its used as a weapon on those who look like easy targets.
Ie. short, not good looking and alone would be a hell-0f-a-lot easier to embarrass than tall, good looking and surrounded by women.
To expand upon my last point.
I’ve been called a creep twice. Both times I was alone, strangely on my phone and it was by someone who was drunk.
The other was walking behind a group of girls, I was heading home. texting (weird coincidence?).
Its never happened when i was in a group of people or with even one other person.
Alone, I look like an easy target. its not surprising people take shots.
Anne, I agree with the advice from Iggles. Also what the guys said about a simple apology. The “game” is won by not playing. Open your heart and give it your best.
But, don’t do it if your heart’s not in it.
SayWhaat, I definitely have a “wall,” too. I don’t talk about a lot of things with people, but if someone opens up to me first, I will reciprocate. I think extroverted intuitives can be extremely private, even more than introverted intuitives. I’ve met several who are like that, and even when I divulge, they keep their walls.
HanSolo, I always did want to make all the lonely guys not lonely anymore, but I was just one person. I went for the outcasts, nerds and geeks. The boyfriends I had were into anime, comic books, D&D, video games, science fiction, fantasy, and quantum theory. So I got into those, too. Unfortunately it means I have a harder time connecting with many mainstream people.
@Anne
Have you charged your cellphone yet? Maybe he messaged you there. Did you tell him on facebook that your phone died and that’s why you emailed him there? Or do you know his phone number?
I mean, all this saving face stuff is good to a point but this is someone you’ve slept with and so I don’t think calling him and hearing each other’s voices would be a bad idea.
If you don’t have a charger and you can’t get his number any other way I would suggest buying one. (After all, isn’t your family millionaire rich
? $10 or $20 for a charger seems like a small price.
I guess there just comes a point where you have to let it hang out and take a risk. I doubt he’ll be pissed if you call him.
Anne,
If you’re trying to land this man for more than a divorce settlement, if you’re looking at this man to be yours for life, then why are you playing dignity games?
If you insist on keeping score, then your relationship would be doomed anyway, and you deserve to lose this man.
@Sai and others that format similarly
I actually read your comments but it’s hard to tell where you begin and where what you’re quoting ends. Could you maybe blockquote or leave a line btw or put a line of dashes? lol Obviously you can do whatever you choose. Just saying.
“Quote”
———
Sai’s comments?
High earners must try harder too…
“The marriage market, as economists bluntly call it, clears much less often in regions in which more women have the potential to out earn men”
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/12/gender-roles
.
“The “game” is won by not playing. Open your heart and give it your best.
But, don’t do it if your heart’s not in it.”
“if you’re looking at this man to be yours for life, then why are you playing dignity games?
If you insist on keeping score, then your relationship would be doomed anyway, and you deserve to lose this man.”
I hope that Anne gave a real thought about those two comments. It’s all there, really.
@Hansolo #938
What really upsets me about online dating, is that the women who write an interesting profile are few and far between. What a well written profile shows to me, is that this woman has character.
I mean, if Gwyneth Paltrow wrote a profile, you just know that there’s gonna be lots pf pretty pictures and something totally bland written to accommodate it.
Boring.
But if Janeane Garofalo wrote a profile … homigod homigod homigod !
Yes, I like Janeane Garofalo.
Other than that, I wish Suzan would write a post on online dating. What she must do is ask her female readers to send her e-mails about their online experiences … the good, the bad, the ugly.
She should reproduce their texts and interactions just as it is, so that we may see what is working, and not working.
No “How to’s” please. I never read such things anyway. I want the undiluted good stuff.
And maybe then I can stop making bugger-ups like this.
Now he has my message, with a question, so I feel like he needs to reply to that first. If he wants to see me again, I can’t see why he won’t? He replied cheerily to my message on Wednesay and I haven’t done anything awful since. He always poses questions in his texts, even meaningless ones, to keep the conversation going. If he was trying to let me down gently, I don’t think he’d bother.
Anne, your main problem is that you keep insisting that he has to see things your way. Get this through your pretty little head: he doesn’t have to do that. He won’t. He obviously likes you, but he also clearly has other options, some of whom are probably indicating that they like him far better than you are willing to show. You keep trying to demonstrate the minimum possible level of interest to get him to pursue you the way you want him to pursue you, (either to preserve your feelings or your pride, I don’t know which), and this is a suboptimal strategy in this scenario.
Let me give you a real example. I have a very attractive wife, as Susan can also verify. If you’re a hard 9, she’s probably a soft 9. Think blonde Sandra Bullock with a fitness model’s body. When we met, she quickly came to understand that I had no shortage of options. We went on a first date, which went very well, but to keep it short, I’ll just say I unintentionally gave her some reason to doubt that my interest in her was particularly strong. Instead of responding by demonstrating a minimal level of interest, she bid a strong hand. The next day called me up and suggested we take our dogs for a walk that afternoon. Low risk, no big deal, etc. It went fine but was complicated by some minor car troubles that distracted me.
As a result, I forgot my dog’s leash at her place, which was 45 minutes away from mine. The next evening, after returning from a workout, I saw the leash hanging from my doorknob. She had clearly driven up after her classes and brought the leash in the hopes of seeing me. I correctly got the message: “I am not like the various other women you know, I am very, very interested in you.” So, I called her up, thanked her, and told her I would be there in an hour. Less than a year later we were married. She went all in, and that made her stand out from the others I’d been seeing. I never even called another woman after seeing that leash.
Regardless of how it turns out for you here, remember that men and women are different. We think differently. What works for you will not work for him, and vice-versa. If you think he is worth it, then take some risks with your heart and your pride. If you’re not willing to take the risk, then you probably aren’t as interested as you think you are. One of the reasons less attractive women often beat out their more attractive rivals for the most desirable men is that the less attractive woman bids a stronger hand, trumping her more attractive rival who is sitting around waiting for the best man to behave like a supplicating man with far fewer options.
Or, as Damien put it more succinctly: ““if you’re looking at this man to be yours for life, then why are you playing dignity games?”
@SayWhaat
It looks like you need a a cactus as well.
@Russ in Texas.
Don’t we all have buttons ? What counts in your favor is that you’re keenly aware of them. And that there’s someone in your life that will tolerate them, and aye, even deal with them. You’re a fortunate man.
Oh Marellus I feel daft for never asking if you had a blog!
I’m going to try and follow what you say there, but I must admit that you lose me from time to time.
Regards dating, are you sure that you’re not aiming a little high? She’d be a dream allright. When you find her, if she has a sister in the UK, can you send her over to me? get her to bring me some lasagne, that’d be nice.
@Just1Z
I only started the bloody blog to post the Whitlaw Lectures . I thought it was important. It still is methinks. Other than that, I trawl other wordpress blogs, and if I see anything interesting I reblog it.
As for my being a little bit weird :
It all started when I was only eight years old … with one end of a string tied to a tooth of mine … and the other end tied to a door handle … and there was this beyeeewtiful woman that was telling me how it’s not gonna hurt … on our third attempt …
And that day I learned something that has stood me in good stead for the rest of my life … and what is it, that I learned, you may ask ?
Why Just1Z, that it’s never a good idea, to be alone in a room with a woman … she might just slam the door shut …
@VD
That was not my quote but the “If you’re not willing to take the risk, then you probably aren’t as interested as you think you are” puts it pretty much and as well succinctly into the same nutshell.
@Justiz
By the way chef, your comment about talking naturally to a girl in a pub without having any idea in the back of your mind sounds like you’re on a great and promising way for better prospects in 2013. Girls are great to talk to, if you take it in a casual way, and nothing brings your “charm” more naturally than doing it just the way you described your encounter. Sometimes it’s simple as that. Girls that are worth the effort invariably like witty, lively and confident guys not posturing as the boorish/Roissy groomed animal. I discovered those american manospheres and womanospheres when reading the comments on this blog and what the little I saw of it in there tells me that it is false advices given to make a buck for inept suckers. Both sides of the sphere are toxic and inept, and only fuelled by gender hating assumptions and driven by the “anything for a buck” religion.
VD’s story is poignant: a woman who goes “all in” is intoxicating to a man. It pierces straight through any emotional armor he has. It is the highest order of “winning through surrender.”
A woman going “all in” can even seduce him from wife and family given certain circumstances, and if the man is not vigilantly on guard against it. The best prevention that the wife has against this is to always be “all in” for her husband. That is, unless he’s a real jerk.
Anne, no matter how beautiful you are, if you rely on your looks alone, and constantly try to get the upper hand, you will lose. You will age (just as your mother and grandmother did before you), you will wilt, and another beautiful flower in bloom can take your place.
You may not find utter sweetness, devotion and loyalty to be attractive, but men do. If you play the aloof, uninterested and cold shoulder game, you’ll keep getting the same results. If that’s what you want, keep at it. If you actually want love, though, you have to risk your heart and go “all in.”
Marellus, if you’re headed to Asia, you will find lots and lots of women, just like the girl you found interesting on the site. No doubt about it. Your problem will be trying to decide between all the girls after you!
My mother-in-law said that if my husband had gone to SE Asia to live, he would have definitely found a wife, made a home there and never came back. So she was glad that he found me, and she can have her son and grandson nearby.
I’m a little wary of visiting China with my husband, actually. He’s going to have so many girls flocking after him.
@VD, not only was she interested and letting you know it, but I would imagine her consideration went a long way–she was willing to drive 45 minutes to drop off something important to you.
@Hope, this story makes me realize the serious problems not only with combat dating, but with sex before real emotional intimacy.
@Marellus
nothing wrong with weird. I like weird just fine. In fact I lay claim to a bit of weirdness from time to time too…but I can’t compete with you
I blame my STEM roots, a twisted sense of humour can only take you so far. But I will persevere, after all I am a very trying man, many people say so.
@pvw
“this story makes me realize the serious problems not only with combat dating, but with sex before real emotional intimacy.”
You seem to have it emotionally and intellectually all together and, yet confused about the sexual intimacy going to soon. According to what you are looking for, then wait without having to feel guilty and pressured by jerks wanting to drag you into the bedroom before knowing you. The “combat dating” is already a war terminology. Nobody wants that.
Blame where deserved: the dignity-games comment was mine.
@Just1Z: Damien is right. The best part about enjoying women’s company is talking to them. I got accused of having once been a player, but that’s not actually true – I just like women, happen to have a couple easy “ins” for conversation (an honest interest in clothing and fashion helps), and as a single man was *honestly* interested in sex (b/c let’s not lie about that) but every bit as happy to sit and have a cup of tea, because it’s intimacy, not sex or beauty, that’s the coin of the realm — beauty is just the (very important) gift certificate.
-Hope: “Anne, no matter…”
Again, sincere and wise words, but that sounds like preaching in the desert.
@Damien
personally speaking I have never had much problem getting on with women socially. This has only gotten easier with age, me online is very much the me IRL (even when I get cranky from time to time). My humour works better face to face, or usually…
I was a shy kid, but that slipped away as I left Uni and realised that I was pretty competent at lots of stuff. Trying new things out, being okay (or better) at them, causing me to try other things…a virtuous circle of self-confidence. (boys should be encouraged to try this, it’s a great way to grow as a young man).
This is how I ended up working in France, for French companies, without any skill in French (when I arrived it was 20+ years since I studied the language up to the age of 16 – ‘O’ level grade). I liked the idea of experiencing France, applied, got the contract, drove down there and just did it. I only met a couple of native English speakers in my time there, it was cool.
My problem has always been that I fit the ‘just let her get to know you’ path as a natural (i.e. that is my nature). I know that this sounds great according to the values that I was brought up with. The problem is that it doesn’t work with women IRL! It is a path to LJBF.
Succesfully getting a girlfriend has only happened when pushing for such a relationship from the get-go. Do not get pigeon holed as a nice guy, you never get out of the LJBF zone.
I am also hampered by being (believe it or not) a natural nice guy. Also a path to LJBF. Since taking the red-pill I have come to very much restrict by nice guy tendancies to those who reciprocate. I am a very good friend to a couple of women who return favours. I work away a fair amount, people who help maintain my house while I’m away are very useful to me. I make sure that their favours are returned with interest.
To go back to the last woman I was talking about, she is/was just great fun to talk to again, this was not our first meeting. we have a common interest, so meeting is a natural thing. Smart, funny, very pretty face, but young. I fully intend to keep the friendship growing, but there is no agenda. If there was, I am sure that I would be far more clumsy – c’est comment ca marche chez moi…VDM. I don’t artificially add game to my interactions with her, but I recognise them in restrospect – it’s very interesting to my amateur psychologist self. I believe that game (not PUA level, I’m not looking for a pick up, but just internal game – exhibiting confidence) does work.
@Underdog
I think you see this a bit too much in terms of what you WANT the scenario to be (for all women, I’m guessing). It was my choice to sleep with him and I don’t think I have lost anything there. If he wanted to get laid once, he would have ‘nexted’ me long ago. My mistake was not making up my mind and going for it soon enough. If I hadn’t been difficult and deleted him, we would have still been dating and both gotten what we wanted. I’m guessing men on here use game to achieve one goal – to make a woman upset. Never mind if you get to date the woman you like – who wants that anyway.
I thought the clue here was to drop the combat mentality. I might allow myself to drop my guard, but I do not agree to the mentality that he has “all the hands” – perhaps if I add him again, but not now.
Anyway you have a mentality where the woman is always at disavantage, so I won’t bother arguing this.
@HanSolo,
I charged my phone. In the message I wrote “my phone is dead”. Could be the fb delete is the only thing that’s really ‘in the way’ here. Considering it’s Christmas, I’m tempted to wait it out.
@Russ
yes, this is all cool with me.
in fact one friend has privately given me the stink-eye for talking to ‘her’ as a woman. i.e. she is a woman, not the way I talk to her… He dislikes the fact that I noticed that she was a she. somehow this has offended his sensibilities (much to my amusement
). he seems to think that as the relationship is not about sex, that I should not even notice that she is a woman. :0
@Hope:
I’m a little wary of visiting China with my husband, actually. He’s going to have so many girls flocking after him.
Me: Before I brought Mr. PVW back to the Caribbean to visit with the non-US based relatives he had not met, I realized from my years of going back to visit that the wariness factor was not exactly the same (bf/wm intermarriage); we got more of the looks of curiosity about us and how we related, ie., checking for the rings, our accents (for example, was I Canadian, British or American), were we merely tourists or did we have local ties…?
Machiavelli never said “the end justifies the means.” You can infer that from a lot of what he wrote but he never actually did say it. The closest he came was “when the deed accuses, the effect excuses” which is a better sentence. (Discourses I 9)
@justiz
Yes mon frère, I understand. And I guess that the way you were brought up in one given culture (England, or Wales?) was a radically different experience than mine, starting with the way boys and girls are “taught” to interact at school from a young age. Sometimes I believe Latin countries have it easier in that regard….. well, if only… All this doesn’t change anything about what you wrote about the pub comment. It’s all there. To be confident, focused on one “prey” without the intention of deceiving, and getting the habit of it. You’ll get a few “Norvegian wood” et alors? it is part of the game. And remember, that game is “their” game. You’ll never beat them at it. When it comes to mating, we’re amateurs and they’re professionals. Knowing this should never make you feel bitter about women, only aware of it.
@Anne:
“Anyway you have a mentality where the woman is always at disavantage”
Dans ton cas, on va pleurer….
There is one thing called simple human interaction, and it’s called talking. You’ve been together already in an intimate relationship, and you apparently live in the same neighborhood, and I assume have each other’s phone numbers. What more do you need to solve the “problem”? Those sissy pretexts about dead cell phones are not insurmontable, are they?
C’est ce soir Noel, appelle-le et demain vous embrasserez sous la neige…if it snows in London.
@Anne
That was what I meant — drop the combat dating script (thinking of interactions in terms of “hands” and stuff like that) because he’s already won if you want to go by that script.
Your only option now is either to 1) cut him off completely and learn from your mistakes or 2) run vulnerability game on him and hope he reciprocates — which is probably hard for you since you’ve been hurt in the past? But one thing you must do is drop the combat dating mentality. It doesn’t serve you at this point.
Yes, that means adding him back on facebook and not worrying about “giving him too much”.
@Escoffier#998,
Unfortunately, I think we’re seeing the emergence of a miserable and rare example.
I still don’t follow….
Anne,
I haven’t weighed in on your situation so far because I think you’ve received a lot of good advice from plenty of the commenters here. I just want to share something with you that I recently observed from one of my girlfriends.
I’ve mentioned this girl on HUS before — she’s the one with the galaxy of beta orbiters. Previously I had assumed that it was her good looks and excessive flirtatiousness that had boys wrapped around her finger, as well as her various feminine trappings (never mind that her bank account is always near-zero: she looks good, lol). She visited me recently and I realized that she had one other key component to her charm: generosity.
She always compliments random people she doesn’t know. She buys gifts for people who are “just friends” (she lives and breathes plausible deniability). She gives and doesn’t expect anything in return.
In the spirit of the season, I think that is something that we could all learn from her. Give for the sake of giving, and don’t expect it to be reciprocated. Be detached from the fruit of your actions, and be generous. And maybe, after all of that, we can be more happy, despite the curveballs life throws at us.
Just my $0.02.
Just HAD to share.
http://ursulav.deviantart.com/art/The-Abyss-Looks-Back-62380479
@Anne
You still seem to think your Facebook friend status actually means something… It most certainly means absolutely nothing!
I don’t know why your over analyzing such a minute point.
I’d be willing to bet he never noticed.
..when’s my Christmas avatar gonna load!!
@Russ in Texas #1006
Hahahahaha !
See this. I couldn’t help myself.
Anne,
Are you sure you want to start this argument with the men-folk here?
You slept with a man shortly after meeting him, got pissed he didn’t do exactly what he wanted, then you deleted him off of Facebook, now you are worried that he might be a player, isn’t giving you the time of day, and you’re asking the internet for help.
Now you are suggesting that really all the men here are bitter woman-hating monsters. When many of us have wives, SOs, mother, and some even have daughters.
You are acting like a child, not a young woman.
This is why a few pages ago we were discussing whether or not you were mature enough to have a relationship at all.
ADBG; +1
Awesome post Hope!!!
-#986
ADBG,
At the end of the day, the more “Game” becomes more public knowledge, the more I see its misunderstanding and misapplication as an oncoming train wreck for women.
Marellus, that Whitlaw lectures was a great read. It reminded me of an author named David Gerrold who wrote a sci fi book called ‘The War Against the Chtorr’. This was a series where aliens came to the Earth and began to terraform it.
In it a military man delivers a lecture to students about freedom and what it means, and that always stuck with me, and he came to similar conclusions as Sr. Whitlaw. Very important stuff to think about, and delivered in a manner that forced you to think about what he was saying.
I may not always ‘get’ your comments, but I still appreciate reading them.
Haha, I just saw that was actually from the book. I went to the second page and saw the link that I missed on the first.
It has been 25 years since I read it. That was refreshing to read again.
@VD #979
+2
@Hope
This.
When I was in school, I once sat in a biology class while the teacher read out our class-test marks. We had to write a class-test every Friday, so there were quite a lot of class test marks over the half-year. And then she started reading out my marks.
I got lost and confused. I told the teacher about my problem, but she didn’t care. She really didn’t care.
“Don’t worry, I wrote it all down as well” said a voice behind me.
It was L. We only ever exchanged pleasantries in class. I still do not know why she did such a thing … such a beautiful thing.
It was so unexpected.
And I’ll remember that … and her … till the day I die.
She was, and probably still is, one of the most remarkable women I’ve ever met.
What can I possibly say .
@ADBG
You have no idea how hard I suppressed my urge to make references to a certain domesticated rodent in my reply to her.
@Anne
I think that calling him today or tomorrow and wishing him a Merry Christmas would be a good idea, even if you only end up leaving a voice message.
I think at some point you need to apologize for deleting him from Facebook. I think that you could say that you though he wasn’t interested when he didn’t bring up the party but that you were wrong for not getting back to him sooner and saying when you could meet up.
OTOH, you can wait it out a bit longer.
Big picture is in line with what many have said here (whether it’s for this guy or not), including Hope, that a woman will get much further by emotionally escalating than by being aloof.
Remember that men are not women. Outside of the player crowd that just wants to get laid, most men will respond much better to affection and emotional escalation. As long as you choose well and don’t pick a player that is just looking for sex or someone that just doesn’t like you.
To 80% accuracy, men are like dogs (and I don’t mean that in the derogatory sense often used). Think of how dogs love receiving affection.
@ Russ 1013
Yep, poorly run game=creepy douche and just makes the whole thing 10x worse.
I remember my first time trying to run “game.” Poor girl. Negged once, negged twice, negged for 5 minutes straight…ooof.
My best friend doesn’t have a whole lot of game. Talked to a mutual friend in a social circle one night, no kino escalation, no isolation, no cocky-funny.
But he did get the girl’s phone number, so, hey, good enough.
Or worse, ADBG, women trying to use those ideas on men, on the hopeless theory that man and woman are alike. “Girl Game” hasn’t changed for thousands of years, and doesn’t need to – it would be hilariously awful if they threw that away in favor of something guaranteed to fail.
“Are you sure you want to start this argument with the men-folk here?
Yes…but just stop right here. Your question just nails it.
I’m impressed to see that, for once, all the men-folk here come into a one and only agreement, without any name calling about girls. Do we all feel part of the same band wagon? I don’t know. Sometimes maybe, sometimes not.
In any case, that Sissy young Parisian countess is not helping Susan’s cause by any mean, but it’s just one example. It’s more the tree than the forest here, obviously.
@Marellus
Yeah, it would be interesting to get the women’s experiences about online dating.
The one thing is that there seems to be about 2x or more men than women so it really makes things hard off the bat. That said, I do a lot of online dating and so it is possible.
I read your blog and it made me laugh. You are a very clever and funny guy.
I think in your case that to begin with you should take the motto that less is more. Too much attention and women flee for the hills. Let them get a SMALL taste of you and then long for more instead of the fire-hydrant treatment.
I’ll give you the same advice that I gave Anne but the other side of the coin.
Women are not men.
To 80% accuracy women are like cats. Cats are not like dogs. Cats do not want to mate with dogs. So, you need to show a little more catlike behavior at first to get that pussy(-cat) interested in you. Remember how cats come up and sit on the lap of the person who ignores it and only once it’s decided it wants you does it want to be petted and start receiving the more “doglike” affection. Also, think of how cats love to chase the spot of light from your flashlight as you zip it up and down the hall.
And no, not all women are more catlike but to men who tend to go overboard with too much affection too soon (that act too much like affectionate dogs that run up to their master when she gets home and bury her with attention), keeping that exaggerated metaphor in mind will help them to treat them in a less smothering and more balanced way. (For the small % of men that are more naturally catlike and aloof then they should incorporate more affectionate dog into their personalities and behavior–or build on that side of their personalities and let it out more.)
They don’t like to be overwhelmed with attention at first. They like to see or experience something in the man that draws them over but they want to be the one that decides she’s liking him and wondering whether he’s really into her or not.
Let me know what you think.
@SayWhaat
Why oh why, do I get the impression that we’re gonna discuss this over coffee one day … and milkshakes … and sweetcakes … and a lemon meringue … *sigh* … and I won’t mind paying for everything.
@Damien
yes, I did enjoy the natural feminity in la belle france…there was a difference imho. the french accent adds a certain frisson as well.
@Just1Z
Mate, the Good Lord made me just smart enough not to be stoopid … and just stoopid enough not to be smart.
Please tell more stories of your interactions with women.
@JutR
My thanks to you. The pity about that story, is that the last book in the series is still not finished. I wish the author would move his arse. From your profile pic, you look like you’re a tough guy, so won’t you please go and pay him a visit ?
@Justiz
France since I left it doesn’t seem to make it any better than the rest, in many regards, especially if you look at Paris…
But I suppose some French girls have managed to “keep it together”. Have you ever dated a French girl? If so, I’d be more than curious to hear your opinion on the gallic female gender. It could make a best seller in Britain, and outrage the French, err, rather the Parisians.
Heh, it loaded!!
HUS on the big screen! –>>
lol Cooper love the avatar.
@HanSolo
This.
I can’t possibly argue with this. I wish I could though, but I can’t.
@Marellus
As a more doglike man myself I wish I could too. But, alas, life has beaten it out of me somewhat and I have developed a more catlike nature. The dog in me is always longing to get out with the right woman though and cover her with affection.
I have so much love waiting for the right woman.
I feel like I have built a dam to hold it back but the rains keep falling and the reservoir is always brimming to the top.
I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.
Until then, I fuck the occasional pussy and wait.
@Marelus.
“This.
I can’t possibly argue with this. I wish I could though, but I can’t.”
Why not? As much as the child that comes out of his/her mother’s womb starts crying because terrified by the light of day, there is a need to accept the fact that women “lead” the game, up to a certain point of course. If you don’t want to accept that, you’re bound to join the Roissy assembly line… Just saying.
@Damien & Marellus
imagine my delight when I discovered that French people find the English accent as sexy as the English find the French one…especially as I discovered that I had the strongest possible accent when speaking French.
In fact I was talking to one young woman, she was entranced, wide eyed, bemused…couldn’t reply coherently in either language…after a couple of minutes then she ran off in embarrassment.
Sadly, she was the four year old daughter of a friend, he explained that she didn’t realise that I was talking French…FML / VDM!
I’m not saying that English / American women lack anything, but that French women have something different. imho, my amateur opinion that is, they don’t feel like they have to compete with men in being men. they are happy to be women. women are not less than men, just different and frankly, vive la difference*. As I said, I find the accent attractive as well. I was in Cassis / La Ciotat (tourist areas during the summer), not Marseille or Paris.
http://www.cassis.fr/en/index.html
regarding interactions, well…given my accent and willingness to give a conversation en francais a try, it was quite easy to start a conversation that rapidly had the other smiling broadly… the locals were not great at English, they appreciated a foreigner giving French a try, top it off with a comedy, (sexy for ze womenz) accent et voila – it was fun. I have always preferred feminine women, that is absolutely not the same as weak women. Unfortunately the do tend to be more complicating of my life though. C’est l’ amour, one prefers what one prefers.
I am in no way a PUA, so don’t be reading much more than that into what I’m saying. Most of the women that I met at work were married, and I don’t go there (I don’t care that the marriage vows were theirs, that is not who I am).
*Susan might well be making the same point with her lists, but I have no intention of putting words in her mouth.
pour les hommes
Nolwenn Leroy – Histoire Naturelle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi3JRkRiuWo
Vanessa Paradis – Il Y A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7z_NCCZWk
Olivia Ruiz – La femme chocolat (the perils of chocolate for women)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLKOfwJodEA
SUPERBUS – Apprends-moi (‘teach me’ – like Blondie)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcYAeL3hTBs
Superbus – Addictions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS-f2NkUCF4
Nailed it, ADBG.
Aside from the occasional PUA shot across the bow, most men here view game more holistically, than just negs to make women feel bad. 90% of game is dropping anti-game. 20% is frame control, understanding core principles, and inner game. 5% is knowledge of specific tactics, if that.
Specific tactics might be defensible if such “knowledge goes mainstream”, but the true inner work cannot be detected and countered – witness Stephen’s solid frame.
@DV #1033
… amantes sunt amentes …
et pour les femmes
Gerald De Palmas – Dans Une Larme (in a tear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJGhrAcAEfM
GERALD DE PALMAS – Au bord de l’eau (at the water’s edge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8_xIiEuwHg
Stromae – Alors on danse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pKrVB5f2W0
@Justiz
“they are happy to be women”
And there is no reason why they shouldn’t be.
But well, the grass is always greener in the yard next to yours, or is it spelled out differently?
It’s also all about cultural perceptions. While I found quite a fair amount of English women absolutely repelent, the ones I liked where simply wonderful: The accent, the manners, the tolerance, I could go on about it.
As for the politeness….the English coded game for hypocrisy maybe, or a long burden inherited from puritanism? I guess I can’t decypher it to this day. Another thing that is for sure is that in Anglo-saxon cultures (Britain, Australia-N.Z, North America ), there is always a more than obvious tendency at the “female bashing game”…
last one
Mylène Farmer – Paradis inanimé
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ7L9XLjBic
et bon soir, je parts
@Damien
“the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence”
and you could well be right, it’s not like all the women were paragons of femininity, j’ai rencontré des merous aussi (or is that just a regional word?). The were female french chavs / chavettes. So maybe there is an element of ‘other side being greener’. tu as raison.
“there is always a more than obvious tendency at the “female bashing game”…”
I hope that I made plain that there wasn’t a lack of anything in anglo women…I tried to…
Marellus, I so wanted him to finish that series, and I checked the book stores for years, hoping to find the next one released. Until I read that passage, I had forgotten about it, and I wiki’ed it to see if he had ever come out with the next. Ahh, that series gave me an appreciation for lifeboat ethical questions and the nature of humanity. I hope all this time has allowed him to hone his prose.
And I have found that looking like a tough guy is a helpful environmental factor when cool headed logic and reason are needed most.
@justiz
Yes, well, rather, awful. Mylene Farmer??
I’ve got to “locomotion” early tomorrow to my “chère moitié” at her grandma’s place in Moravia. We’ll keep on going here next year if I get to comment again…… too much time in front of the computer while the loved one is away.
Anyway, I wish you well. Bonne chance dans la vie et l’année 2013 va t’apporter beaucoup de surprises dans le domaine de l’amour. Tu verras.
Ciao mate, I’m off now.
‘Mylene Farmer’, yes, I saw the jokes about ‘her career falling of a cliff’, a picture of a falling rocks roadsign with ‘her’ superimposed…sue me!
@JuTR
Consider a career in politics one day.
@Just1Z
I like Nolwyn Leroy and Superboss.
The only truly French song I ever went gaga over, was this one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ewzAyAdhc
@HanSolo
This is quite a bomb you dropped. Why ?
STRONGLY COSIGN!!!
Anne, you have nothing to lose. Liking someone and saying so does not cost you dignity points. Your earlier actions did, and required an apology. Now it’s simple. I like you, I want to see you. That’s it. If I hadn’t done that with my husband, I am certain we would not have gotten together.
BTW, Vox, Sandra Bullock should be so lucky.
@OTC
“Aside from the occasional PUA shot across the bow, most men here view game more holistically, than just negs to make women feel bad. 90% of game is dropping anti-game. 20% is frame control, understanding core principles, and inner game. 5% is knowledge of specific tactics, if that.”
Ummm.
I’m not a mathematician but I think % is measured out of 100.
Also, I’d say dropping anti-game is 95% of game which involves frame control.
The other 5% used for bars.
@Marellus
Why? I felt a kindred spirit and a listening ear in you and so I shared what is really in my soul.
Though I like flings at a certain level I’m tired of them and want love. It’s what I always wanted.
Both I and certain women from my past were too picky or too imcompatible to make it work but I feel more ready now.
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