I rarely post two letters from readers back to back, but I received an email today that is both time-sensitive and potentially instructive to readers.
I’ll begin with a confession. The real name of the writer is very unusual, and after reading her letter I had a hunch I wanted to confirm. Sure enough, she is indexed in Google images thanks to social media profiles. It is as I suspected. She is a hard 9, at least, if your taste runs to Kate Upton on a good day. I don’t mean to objectify her, but I think she falls victim to a mentality that is common among beautiful women. It may sound counterintuitive, but beautiful women often have to make a special effort to land a good man, initiating intimacy, providing encouragement and offering reassurance along the way.
My advice would be the same in any case, but her looks are undoubtedly a factor in the dynamic between them.
Dear Susan,
Hi, your blog always gives such insightful advice on relationship issues, and I would love some right now because I’m in a difficult position with the first man I’ve liked in a long time. I’m 22, he’s 25.
I’ve been dating him for around two months now. I ended things with a guy this summer and was deeply depressed for a while, which is why I didn’t want to get emotionally attached too soon. There was a bit of imbalance – he took me out to nice dinners, walked me home, didn’t even make a move. When we started sleeping together, things were great but I was still not completely accommodating – I didn’t offer him coffee/breakfast in the morning, which I kind of regret now. I’m an introverted person and I don’t express emotions very well. Raised that way I guess. Nevertheless, we continued dating and he’d text and call very often.
I haven’t seen him in person for around 3 weeks. It’s sometimes been difficult matching our schedules (he’s working, I’m a student), and I have been travelling the past week. He said he wanted to take me to a lovely dinner the night I came back from an overseas trip. I was jetlagged when back and had a heavy lunch so I suggested a drink instead, and he accepted. I dozed off, got back to him a couple of hours later and said we could meet 45 mins later at which point it would be 10.45. He said it would be “a little too late” because he had to get up early for work, but we could meet the next day. I was pissed – that drink would probably lead to him coming back with me, he hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks, what guy says no to that because he’d get six hours rather than eight? I was so annoyed I said I was busy the next few days. He told me to “let him know when I could see him”.
So when I was out Thursday night I texted him (very late, early hours) asking if he was out too. For a weekday, I figured he might have been in bed. I got a reply the next morning. Friendly, as usual, but he hasn’t initiated anything since.
Worst part – Saturday night was a party hosted by a friend of his – an all night dinner and drinks. He asked me about a month ago and even convinced me to stay in town a far more days to attend. Come Saturday, I heard nothing. I’m just assuming he went to the party without me. I suppose most girls would text and go “what’s going on with that party??”. But I always assume a defensive position towards men – I think until the point of exclusive, the initiatives should be theirs. Plus, I did make an “initiative” Thursday night by texting first.
I was angry and in my irrational rage, I figured this was “finished from my side”, deleted him off facebook and deleted our text message history. That was yesterday, I assume he’s seen it by now, but he hasn’t said anything. I am twisting in agony trying to figure what the reason for his silence might have been… Whether someone said something about me. I can’t figure why, I’m not known as promiscuous, and I don’t think there is anything awful that may surface.
So as you can see I’m going out of my mind. I like the guy, and I know I acted irrationally when deleting him. But his behaviour was really schizo – he was all over me and seemed so genuinely interested, and then shut down on Saturday. I feel like it would be stupid to contact him now, it will seem as if deleting him was a provocation and now I’m “giving in”? I feel like it would give me an instant lower hand. Should I just wait it out?
Am I being completely crazy? Will this end right now if I don’t make a move? Or will I look pathetic? Or is it the case that if he likes me enough, I will hear from him?
An ex boyfriend accused me of always causing unnecessary drama. If that seems the case, please let me know.
Anne
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you’re a regular reader, in which case you’ve seen my posts about avoiding players, and also my posts about the need for a woman to escalate emotionally when a man does get through her filter and she wants to be in a committed relationship with him.
I’m going to cut straight to the chase here.
You have been employing the Principle of Least Interest with such success that you convinced Stephen you are not interested in him. To be fair, you describe yourself as having been hurt fairly recently and feeling somewhat self-protective. It’s hard to escalate emotionally while deliberately delaying intimacy. Being introverted and not emotionally expressive makes this more challenging as well.
It sounds like Stephen was happy to go all out in pursuing you, putting in most of the effort. You already have a sense that you did not give him the reinforcement that would have helped to seal the deal early on, as you mention having regrets about remaining aloof, even after sex. However, I see some poor judgment calls here on your part within the last week or so that I don’t believe you fully recognize. At the risk of being very hard on you, I’m going to highlight them in hopes that you can learn from this experience, whether things work out with Stephen or not.
You did not act eager to reunite with him when you returned from Miami.
I understand that you were jet lagged, and I’m sure he did too. You might have rescheduled, explaining that you were dying to see him but wanted to be at your best. You could also have mentioned that you simply could not function without a couple of hours sleep, would he be amenable to a late drink?
Instead it sounds like you dismissed his plan because you were not particularly hungry (bad call) and then left him waiting and wondering until 10 p.m. That was not very considerate of his time, and it may have played a role in his declining at that point. Or he may have calculated that you would both have a much better time with less pressure by doing it the next day instead. Maybe he wanted to enjoy your company for an evening instead of racing home from the bar to have sex before an early alarm.
You felt rejected, so you punished him.
If a man is rejecting you, punishing him for doing so is not a good strategy for exciting his interest. Had you agreed to the next night, you would likely have had a passionate reunion. Instead, you told him you did not want to see him. His response that you should let him know indicates hurt feelings and hurt pride.
You sought to increase your control over him.
After turning him down, and without letting him know when you were available to see him, and how much you wanted to see him, you texted him while out late on a work night. This served to remind him that you are a carefree student who can be out and about getting attention from other men while he is required to get his sleep before another grueling day at the office. I imagine he woke in the morning, felt peeved, and his resentment grew throughout the day.
Note that you have still not texted to “let him know when you could see him.” You have only texted to convey your fabulousness and desirability on a night when he was unlikely to go out.
You stubbornly waited for him to break.
You entered into a pissing match over who would blink first. It should have been you! Why do you always assume a defensive posture with men? Why are they required to do all the work? You’re bound to intimidate the hell out of most men as it is – they’re going to need some positive reinforcement to keep going! And they’re very likely to assume that they’re unlikely to hold your interest.
Deleting him from facebook probably signalled to him that you have zero interest in him whatsoever, and want all reminders of your association gone.
In short, I don’t think his behavior has been schizo or the least bit unreasonable. I think you’ve been acting like a bit of a spoiled brat. (I say this with a maternal affection.) I don’t know whether this is salvageable, but if you really look at Stephen and see a potential father for your children, here is what I suggest you do:
Go crawling to him on your hands and knees.
Stephen,
I regret the way things have been between us for the last week. I accept responsibility for doing a very poor job of letting you know how much I wanted to see you upon my return. I have enjoyed our time together very much and I’d like to set things right. Are you free tomorrow night? Would you like to come over for a drink and we can talk about it?
Missing you,
Anne
If he is kind but says no, you’ll have time for soul searching. If he is a jerk and really was playing you in some way, he’ll be rude and unresponsive, in which case you just got rid of a bad guy. If he says yes, you’re back in the game. Respond graciously no matter what.
No more silent treatment, it’s time to make a little drama here (the good kind – as in, a dramatic gesture to surprise and delight him).
{ 1518 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Lokland
Perhaps he meant removing some of frame control (the 20%) falls within removing anti-game and so the numbers still add up. Or…whatever.
I usually try to be creative and find how someone’s statement makes sense and get whatever I can from it.
What is this? I don’t even………………
@HanSolo
… then I hope that all your journeys and destinations are safe and prosperous. Other than that, you managed to charm Anne, and I see the other women on this site not being abashed to talk to you. So a similar thing must be happening in real life. From your previous profile pics you’re also handsome, but I suspect you can be shy. In your case, it’s then simply a matter of seeing the signals women make at you, and responding.
You’re doing fine now … and you’re gonna do even better.
Have faith.
Please.
@Han
Ahhhhhh
I was trying to be a sarcastic PITA with a touch of humour.
I need to consider the use of emoticons no matter how much doing so will tear my man card to shreds.
Thanks, Marellus.
I am more shy in large groups but quite engaging one-on-one or in small, intimate groups where there is more trust.
@Lokland
I have this mental image of you as a serious, thoughtful man and so I tend to read you more literally.
As to showing emotion and emoticons, think of the ying-yang symbol (whatever it’s called) where the yang has a touch of ying in it.
I won’t revoke your mancard.
@Sassy
… understand ?
It’s a guy thing.
Hey, men are not the only romantics around!
http://www.rosehope.com/how-do-i-love-thee/
Also, relevant to the issue of “hand”:
http://www.rosehope.com/the-color-blue/
@ Sai
Heh.
Well, I’m not that into the whole touchy-feeliness anyways.
@Marellus
Here is my favorite French pop song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdLDxtGONyI
The French lyrics are much better than the English version (which is sort of dumb):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQcGhh5pSg
I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.
That is very touching, Han. It’s what the right woman is waiting to hear.
Until then, I fuck the occasional pussy and wait.
This, not so much.
Lok: “Ummm. I’m not a mathematician but I think % is measured out of 100.”
Maybe for you, but I always give 115% in my love life.
IOW: the intentional percent error was an inline example of frame control.
On another note:…VD: new novel is excellent! I’ve been really enjoying it. I’d like to see you turn your hand to a modern techno-thriller at some point!
Glad to hear it. I hope you’ll pop a review up on Amazon when you finish. I’m toying with the idea of writing a mystery set in Italy, and writing it in both English and Italian at the same time. That might be a stretch, but it’s a lot easier than cranking out over 1,000 pages in a year.
@VD, not only was she interested and letting you know it, but I would imagine her consideration went a long way–she was willing to drive 45 minutes to drop off something important to you.
It was even more than that. She was willing to drive that far to drop off something I wouldn’t have missed. I had leashes to burn. It definitely made an impression.
BTW, Vox, Sandra Bullock should be so lucky.
It’s a low bar to clear, that. Rest assured that Spacebunny knows very well that I am not the easiest man with whom to live.
Susan,
I got an email from him tonight. It had a short video attached of him saying Merry Christmas but of course I have no way of knowing if it was just for me or made for several people (can’t be for his ENTIRE contact list, as it was not in English). Either way, I decided to add him again. It’s still an initiative, right?
I think this message was for several people (due to the sign on my account). Now I don’t feel so cheery. More stupid.
This will come in very handy
The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
.
Anne,
If you somehow think that re-adding him to Facebook is a gigantic and meaningful concession, then this whole thread is moot.
@ Russ,
No I don’t. But it was really the ‘elephant in the room’ as someone put it, so surely it’s worth something getting rid of it. It’s the most ‘obvious’ thing I can do.
Right now I’m just pondering whether he really thought about sending me a Christmas greeting or if it was meaningless.
@J
Merry Christmas.
That was a sincere expression of what I’m feeling (both the part you found moving and the part that you didn’t), of the duel drive to find a deep and meaning love but, if that’s not there, to once in a while have sex. I believe a majority of men are similar to me (neither pure players that never want a true love nor men that are never willing to have a fling) but I suppose what other men think is irrelevant. I was kind of dating someone and she asked my N. I told her. It was much higher than hers and what she expected but it wasn’t a deal breaker, though it was a slight turn off to her. I believe that most women are like this, though there are some who are firmly set on a very-low-N man and that’s fine. I wish them well.
I’m more than ready though to find that deep love. That woman will hear the “moving” words and more importantly feel it in every one of my actions. I won’t parade my past flings in her face but I won’t hide the general details and the exact N if she wants to know. I was a voluntary virgin for many years. I am able to control myself when I choose to. In my post-virgin relationships I have been faithful, even when extra-relationship sex was available. I will be faithful in my future relationships as well.
I’m certainly not the kind of man for a woman that wants a virgin or someone who’s never had a fling. I also don’t have the same degree of N revulsion that most men on here do (though I respect their right to feel turned off at whatever level they wish and let the chips fall where the may, and I do have a slut threshold that some women are beyond). On the other hand I would also be fine with a virgin. I’ll just take the whole person into consideration.
@Hope
Merry Christmas. I hope you’re enjoying time with your family. I am with mine. We’re having a brief break right now before we start singing Christmas Carols.
I read your blog entry about love and the color blue and loved the quoted words below. Thanks for sharing. I’ll read the other one when I get a chance.
@Anne
Merry Christmas.
The following is meant as sincere advice.
Obviously you know much more than we do and have to make the decisions and do the deeds in the end. We’re just spectators.
I still get the feeling that you’re trying to avoid losing face or avoid the chance of him rejecting you.
I also think that a simple and sincere apology for deleting him from Facebook would be a good idea. Some variation along the lines of, “Hey sorry for deleting you from Facebook. I overreacted and thought you weren’t interested in me. I would love to see you soon.”
I think you’re too focused on what you think he should be doing and still haven’t quite made amends for what you have done. Until you have made amends then you don’t have any business demanding things from him.
Of course, you may choose to take the low-key route and see if things blow over and work out.
If I were the guy in a similar situation I would still be wondering why I was deleted and I would take it as a mild but not insignificant insult that I was removed. Without some acknowledgement of that I would still have a queasy feeling about being reinvited again: either the girl doesn’t like me that much, or she acts rashly, and finally, she isn’t capable of admitting when it was “her bad.” I could certainly get over it but I would take it as a sign of things to come and without some simple apology about it and recognition (and I’m not saying I would want a grovelling apology, just a quick admission) there would always be that very small thorn in my shoe that would gently poke me.
Do what you will and good luck. I’m just telling you how I would feel if I were a guy in that situation.
@Anne
See, you’re worrying about whether he sent you a personalized Christmas greeting but did you send him one?
Obviously both people have to reciprocate and let the love freely flow for a relationship to work and so if someone never does anything then it will fail. But you two are not in a relationship and I really think it would be good for you to do a full-hearted gesture for him.
So far you seem like you want to do something but you’re also afraid of him rejecting you and that would really hurt.
It seems like you want things to still work and you ARE making efforts, like writing him and adding him. However, instead of doing these really small things I think a more courageous and warm gesture on your part is warranted. Love is about giving and sometimes you just have to risk something.
Sincerely. Best of luck. I guess I’m just feeling generous in giving my advice since it’s Christmas.
Anyway, my dad has started playing the piano, the Christmas Carols are rolling and soon we’ll be singing. I’m off. Cheers!
Hello Anne and Susan.
Merry Christmas to you and this forum. I stumbled on it this evening, and while I simply lacked the resolve to read EVERY post, I read a lot of them.
Anne, your story was very interesting and I can see why Susan gravitated to it. I wish you nothing but the best of luck in this situation. I would not beat yourself up to much on the situation. I think it is remarkable that someone so young has the courage and humility to seek advice from relative strangers, especially on a medium that is typically not tolerant at all.
There has been a lot of exceptional advice here (and some not as much). This is the first I am reading of Susan’s posts and I am quite impressed. Coincidentally, my mother’s name is Susan, and she is a behavioral psychologist. Sorry, did not mean to get off on a tangent.
I concur that if you really do care for this guy and see that you may have over-reacted, it would show additional courage and maturity to admit your mistake and see what the next steps are, together.
I strongly encourage a face-to-face, or at least a phone call. I am guilty of texting and emailing as much as the next person, but the medium fails to adequately convey a lot of information that is important in this sort of situation.
I have had similar things happen to me, where a woman gave me, at least what I perceived to be, mixed signals. As difficult as it can be, having clear and rational dialog can go a long way. I define emotion as the lack of rationality. =) We behave irationally when emotional. He seems like a smart guy and will likely understand the situation if you talked to him honestly and openly. Yes, you will make yourself vulnerable, but love is not a game as many have suggested (or implied). One of my guiding principles (which I also find difficult at times), is “in order to succeed, you must be willing to fail”. This means being vulnerable.
Hopefully it will all work out in the end for you. Finding someone special, whether you are beautiful, average, rich, poor, is a very difficult thing. But to find that, you have to put yourself out there… you have to be vulnerable on occasion, and you have to explore.
Much luck and again, Merry Christmas.
P.S. Do not be to paranoid, especially around the holidays.
@ Lokland
“90% of game is dropping anti-game. 20% is frame control”
I’d increase the importance of frame control. Frame is related to strong personal boundaries which is related to self-esteem and independence.
If you raise your personal boundaries high enough, you become a Sigma.
Add in social acumen (which becomes easier when all that mental energy spent on defence and insecurity goes instead into presence) and a sigma becomes Alpha.
If your force of personality is strong enough, anti-game becomes less of an issue because the rules no longer apply to you. Frankly a sigma/alpha can say “I like you, lets meet up tomorrow for ice-cream” and have it work for this reason.
One of my favourite clips of a Sigma in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4b7gEu7b74
@HanSolo & Mako
Thanks for this advice, I see a lot of people are saying the same things. The reason I take ‘small steps’ is that I want to try and make up for my mistake without actually starting ‘chasing’ and artificially holding up a relationship he wouldn’t initiate otherwise. This is not related to ‘the upper hand’. It’s the fact that I still believe a man should do the chase.
As I read on this blog
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/dont-initiate-contact.html
I just had a realization about the Xmas message. Someone else made that video and probably posted it and sent to all his contacts. Otherwise it’s weird to make a dorky clip saying merry christmas and I know for a fact his brothers are the type to pull pranks like that. So there is a chance it was not him at all. And now I sent a request. Great.
Anne,
What request did you send? I can certainly respect your feelings to not artificially support a relationship. You also have far more facts and intuition about what is happening, than we ever will.
Susan and others have certainly provided a strong foundation of perspective to give you tools to make good choices. I have no doubt that you will proceed in a way that is best for you.
Regarding the paranoia and reading to much into various messages, texts, etc… I would counsel against reading to much into any of this until you have had the opportunity to speak in person. It is human nature to look at signs and try to read into them based on our fears or desires.
Disclaimer:
I have absolutely zero background in any behavioral science, but am merely fascinated by it. =) …which is why I find this forum so intriguing.
Anne, that rulesrevisited blog post doesn’t apply here. You’ve already had sex with this guy, so you’re not trying to filter out a cad. The not initiating rule doesn’t matter.
If you play too hard to get, you’re going to make the guy go away. Most men nowadays will not jump through hoops for a girl who’s paying hard to get, unless they’re socially inept or a player looking for a conquest.
Your own experience should bear this out, as a player made it through your hard to getness, correct?
Anne @ 1075
If you truly want a relationship that attitude of I think men need to chase needs to get lost. The only guys interested in a lot of chase are bedpost notchers. Good luck finding a player with a heart of gold
Anne,
Regardless of how this turns out, this is a valuable learning opportunity for you. Consider this a free gift from an unexpected Santa.
In the future, don’t think of love as a contest you win and which the other loses. It’s supposed to be a winning proposition for both sides. Love is something the two of you build together, not where one side conquers and plunders everything from the other. Being defensive for fear of getting hurt and losing power in turn hurt your relationship. No man who “knows when to fold ‘em” is going to look to build love with you if your heart is locked in a castle behind a moat, drawbridge, lowered portcullis, and barred gates. Or if you prefer a more modern alternative, a military bunker surrounded by minefields and covered with snipers and machine guns.
If you see him and he doesn’t reject further association, take the opportunity to rebuild the foundation of your relationship and give yourself the opportunity to trust him more fully. Free yourself of any unwarranted preconceptions and let his words and deeds stand alone and speak for themselves.
—-
So, I suppose in your view Rose Dewitt Bukater and Jack “I got ten bucks in my pocket” Dawson from Jame Cameron’s “Titanic” should have had nothing to do with each other after that first encounter on the poop deck because he was a ne’er-do-well, not because he couldn’t buy her “Pate de Foie Gras” and “Vegetable Marrow Farci” (actual menu items for the First Class’s last meal on the real Titanic) and that he didn’t have a first-class ticket. Similarly, in the real Britain, Ladies and Dames don’t date chavs and hooligans, while Lordlings and Knights don’t date ladettes and . . . Essex girls?
I’m not entirely certain I understand what you meant when you said that a man’s confidence is influenced by his social background. There’s positive confidence (the kind you have when you invest in a carefully vetted company) and negative confidence (the kind people killed by things like speeding in cars had, or the kind hooligan firms have when they tussle with other firms and the police). People can be born into wealth, but common genes are by no means an indicator that one is truly worthy to inherit an estate/businesses. Just look at how many well-educated businessmen run their businesses into the ground due to overconfidence and overly-large egos. I hope your peers will be able to spot the false confidence that the PUA community is teaching to many jilted and frustrated men too.
Your mother lost sleep over your sister bringing home a bartender? Don’t most Britons drink so much to the point that the liquor business is hugely profitable over there? Or was he shown the door because he was the kind to take advantage of inebriated patrons? And is there a reason why you wouldn’t approach men instead? Is it because your peers would quickly deem you “unladylike” or give you another negative label? If that’s the case, then I can’t think of a reason why such a prejudice would exist in this day and age of “liberated” women.
As for a victory by the bitter male population, you still have to admit that the common perception is that women of your caliber have a line of men out the door vying for their attention. I’m glad that Susan decided to do her part in debunking this common misperception. Still, the fact that you’re part of the “golden demographic” targeted by PUAs (and the wildest dreams of men), which is 18-24 years of age, with the looks of a Kate Moss/Lily Donaldson/Nikki Sanderson/etc. makes you ripe for objectification and ridicule. The funny thing is those people don’t realize you didn’t choose to be born that way, and most don’t realize the problems that kind of appearance comes with.
One question that’s been nagging me is why you slept with him early on when you remained so defensive. If you weren’t willing to entirely trust him with your heart, why sleep with him? Did this feed into the feeling of betrayal you felt when you deleted him from your fb account?
@J
My thanks for the music. That Patricia Kaas has a serious voice on her. Do you know if she’s Dutch by the way ?
Anyhow, here is a song that knocked me off my feet when I first heard it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO9Vs_ohtRU
In the violent silence
Of a dream within a dream
You fill my soul with beauty
You’re my shiny man machine
I’m sinking in the roses
Falling down to fade away
The velvet blade of apathy
Makes the crush so bittersweet
(CHORUS)
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
Your presence is the night
Your absence is the morning
I’m searching your dark hallways
Trying to find the light
Swimming your sad ocean
I’m drowning in your sea
This will all be over soon
And we’ll learn to live again
(CHORUS)
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
In the evening stars I see your eyes
I hear you speak to me
I miss you now so much it aches
So broken so afraid
(CHORUS)
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
And I, I could have died last night
But I heard the voice of a smaller god
@Hope #1058
You really know how to discombobulate me, don’t you ? Oh well.
“My thanks for the music. That Patricia Kaas has a serious voice on her. Do you know if she’s Dutch by the way?”
IDK, I can’t listen to her without thinking of a nice piece of Stilton / Cheddar or, at a pinch Edam / Gouda…
@Just1Z
Hahahahaha !
HanSolo, thanks, and merry Christmas morning (5:50am here) to you!
Marcellus, good word. Had a teacher who loved to use it!
@Marellus
a cheesy joke, but I’ve only just broken open the alcofrol…12:50 is respectable isn’t it?
merry christmas
I have a gorgeous smelling boeuf bourguignon on the slow cook bubble…mmmmm
@Marellus
if you want some new words, I have just bought ‘The Horologicon’ cheap off of amazon uk…
is one dressing for dinner? or partaking of the festive repast as a flabergudgion? (tatter-wallop, ragabash or tatterdemalion)
as an ultracrepidarian I am able to avail you of my wisdom on any subject this fine afternoon (deluge has paused and I currently have a blue sky!)
today I intend to fudgel the whole day long…
@Anne
Why should this Stephen guy chase you? That’s not a rhetorical question and I’m not trying to be mean. Take a moment to answer it for yourself.
Should he chase you because you’re hot? Or should he chase you because you’re relationship material? If you want him to chase you because you’re relationship material, then what have you done to show him that you’re relationship material?
@Just1Z
Look at this That is what’s lying on my bed. That also drank one of my Guinness’. That did not shower today. But was very good at the barbeque. That is my brother. I love him (no homo). It’s good I’m reading Terry Pratchett now. So if there’s a word that can describe all this, it would be sorely appreciated.
@Hope
One of these days, me and your husband are gonna have a little talk about all those strategic places in the house, where one can hide smelly socks, so that the Mrs can never hope (heh) to find it.
@Underdog
The simple answer to that is the reason every man chases every woman. I know that sounds a bit wrong to some men, but men do take the ‘dominant’/active stance towards females almost everywhere in nature. By “chase” I don’t mean putting a woman on a pedestal. I simply mean initiating contact most of the time. I don’t see it as a negative thing for men – they are more in control of their love life, they can choose to approach or not and they can choose to pursue further or not. Women don’t have to chase (or outright shouldn’t IMO) but are left to choose from the men who pursue them and will sometimes realize things aren’t working out the hard way – waiting by the phone.
I know that in my scenario I’ve been way too “off”. I took Susan’s advice to heart – she told me to text him, and I did. Someone said deleting him was the problem, so I added him back. The reason I have only made these small advances is that I want to show interest while not ending up in a situation where I’m chasing him. Not because it hurts my pride (although of course that too, more as a woman than a man would) but because most men would take what comes easily to them, and I feel that I would risk him saying yes to seeing me again, and in reality his heart isn’t in it.
@Anne
The motivation for every man when he chases a woman is sex. If I’m reading this correctly, Stephen’s already gotten his fair share of sex from you.
@Underdog
So what you’re saying is give up, there is no hope anywhere?
He pursued me without trying for sex a long time and he pursued me as much after we’d done it. If I was under the impression he had what he wanted and got tired, I wouldn’t bother. But my impression was that there was a specific problem that made him stop – such as thinking I wasn’t interested enough.
Most women expect men to be on the ‘active’ side even after sex. Even the blog post I linked to said “well into a relationship”. It’s fair enough that things have gone equal, but I don’t think any woman should put herself in a situation where she ‘chases’ a man. If she feels like she has to, I’m guessing he’s not interested enough.
I can add that I thought there was enough ‘material’ here. I wouldn’t have slept with him if I didn’t think he had feelings for me. We had an awesome first date – he mentioned it later in the night and said the dinner was “fantastic”. He called me several evenings just to talk. He said I was the ‘sweetest girl he’d met’. I assume there are reasons a guy will continue to pursue a girl after sex, and I suppose I thought we had enough of those.
@Anne
Giving up is one of your options, sure. The other option, as I said earlier, is to run vulnerability game on him. That means putting your pride on the line, taking the initiative to emotionally escalate and risking rejection. Don’t think of the process as you chasing him, think of it as you presenting yourself as commitment material instead of just a hot girl whose main draw is sex.
Anne,
Merry Christmas!
Everything you’re writing says that this is a man who was sincerely looking at you for a keeper. (Great!) And it’s certainly that nothing’s lost (Underdog’s opinion is too jaundiced for this context). It’s Christmas, you’ve got time, and when you get the time, you should clearly throw dignity to the wind and pursue. And yes, I *did* read what you wrote above regarding men and pursuing, but the simple fact is that you don’t know men anywhere near as well as you think you do.
“Not because it hurts my pride (although of course that too, more as a woman than a man would) but because most men would take what comes easily to them, and I feel that I would risk him saying yes to seeing me again, and in reality his heart isn’t in it.”
My dear, grown-ups have this wonderful thing called “talking.” If you can get yourself to where he is and apologize in person for having been a ninny, you can find out how he feels right there. Risk? Of course you risk! You are wanting this man for life! Is that worth no risk to you? If there is any time in your life to lay down your dignity and fear aside, Anne, this is it!
” By “chase” I don’t mean putting a woman on a pedestal. I simply mean initiating contact most of the time. I don’t see it as a negative thing for men – they are more in control of their love life, they can choose to approach or not and they can choose to pursue further or not. ”
Did I miss the memo on guy chasing girls?
I don’t think I’d pursue a girl, very actively, if I was the one who always has to initiate contact. I’d choose not to, cause I’d guess she wasn’t that interested.
Hey Anne -
I agree with what others have said about being more straightforward/vulnerable in the future, but you may have to give him some space while he is home over the holidays. It sounds like he has a thriving social life, and there may be many relatives and old friends making demands on his time. (I doubt he is sitting home alone avoiding you!) Since the two of you just went through a rough spell, you shouldn’t expect to be a high priority given the circumstances. I think you may find it easier to get things back on track once you return to London.
Anne, I don’t know how I can be more clear about having to initiate contact.
When I’m getting to know a girl, I practically insist on effort and communication being 50/50 – and it usually doesn’t matter how much I like her, at all, whether or not I drop contact cause she has too. Anything I do over the 50, half way mark, would be devaluing myself – just as this guy has refused to do.
I think playing with Principle of Least Interest (PLI) is very risky. I don’t like it at all myself, namely because if it starts being played I. Will. Win.
If that’s the game your playing , he’s already won. Time for a new script.
@Marellus
looks like your brother is taking care to avoid being wamblecropt (more than ‘quesy’ after his meal). ‘cropt’ (being incapacitated) by ‘wamble’ (rolling or uneasiness of the stomach). He is takjing a nooningscaup.
You may consider him to be lollygaging. Perhaps he is a lolpoop or one of those loobies.
Right now I can see that the dimpsy murkens, the sky obnubilates and so my day sidles supperward. But first it is time for me to skink – Cheers Marellus.
(Horologicon – 99p today on amazon.co.uk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebSYPnllFx8
Just1Z
You do realize that the way you’re going on, you’re just gonna have to write a book one day you gungnaspritzim Oboliacious word-smiter-eer !
Anne,
Luv … looks like you could make use of a good hug.
@HanSolo
I didn’t know you felt like that. Now I REALLY hope you can find a good wife.
@INTJ
”
“Well, I’m not that into the whole touchy-feeliness anyways.
———
I wasn’t either, but there seem to be years of figurative crud and ‘Groucho Marx disease’ that need clearing out… I had an epiphany recently: I was watching “Babes in Toyland” and Mary is just plain adorable, she’s friendly, pretty, helpful, I want to give her a hug (she could use better math skillz though). But it’s like somebody here said, it’s not an act (it IS, since it’s a movie, but bear with me), it’s natural and honest. There is a hole in me where some emotions are supposed to be -I don’t know if my DNA causes that or if I broke it at some point, but I guess next year’s resolution will be to work on improving EQ. Dr. F. will help me on the 19th.
Everyone: Merry Christmas!
Anne: Good luck!
Apology + explanation = excuse
I might come off as being too hardcore and nasty: I see no hope for this woman. The fact that she’s talking instead of doing tells me flat-out that she’s not really hat into him.
Eight-odd years of mental entitlement and bad habits are not going to be extinguished for this guy, and I’d say that he’s smart enough to know it also. Cie la vrie.
@HanSolo
Where you live, if there is a front garden with a some kind peculiarly shaped bush on the right side of the (wooden) front gate, do the following :
Leave via the front gate and turn left.
Keep straight and take the first left turn then.
You’ll come up to a set of traffic lights; there you turn right.
There should be shops in that street.
Keep straight.
On the left hand side of that street, look for something big and yellow. You can’t miss it.
In the vicinity of the big yellow there is shop and a woman behind a counter with red in her hair.
Ask her about toad stools.
@Marellus
today the predecessor to the weird word book, that I talked about yesterday, is on offer on Amazon.co.uk £0.99 / 99p
you might very well love it. he has a very casual wit. in the excerpt he explains why ‘turkey’ is ‘turkey’ in English, but ‘dinde’ in French
As a festive treat I’ll talk turkey;
(from Etymologicon)
Forsyth, Mark (2011-11-03). The Etymologicon: A Circular Stroll through the Hidden Connections of the English Language (pp. 39-40). Icon Books. Kindle Edition.
He also has a section on Thomas Crapper – who was NOT the inventor of the flushing toilet. He is the root of the American word ‘crap’, but not the English one…!
I definitely recommend the book…
@VD
Ha! Solipsism? I meant that Spacebunny, is, IMHO, much better looking than Sandra Bullock. Much more feminine, especially.
Though I do agree you are a better catch than Jesse James.
@HanSolo
I’ve not been online much in recent days, but just read everything you said about what you’re looking for, and literally broke down. I had goosebumps from head to toe. Obviously, there is a range of female responses, but if there’s such a thing as a real “tingle,” that’s it for me. You have so much to offer, I know you will find that woman.
Re Munson:
I miss him so much. I am humbled by his wisdom. And selfishly, I realize that this one paragraph would have been a complete and eloquent rebuttal to all the stuff in this thread about dread.
@Mako
Welcome, thanks for the feedback, and more importantly, thanks for giving Anne such great advice. I am moved by people taking the time to offer advice to a stranger at this very busy time.
@Anne
I have the highest respect for Andrew at RR. I think his advice is gold. However, this is a different situation. You are the one who must make amends, whatever that takes. Of course, you could refuse and hope for the best. You could try and still get rejected. In my view, though, your best shot at a relationship with this guy is open and honest communication.
Stop trying to analyze all this random digital communication. Call the guy on the phone. If you only knew how many people contact me because they’re essentially derailed their love lives via bad texting and weak moves!
Sue: “I’ve not been online much in recent days, but just read everything you said about what you’re looking for, and literally broke down. I had goosebumps from head to toe. Obviously, there is a range of female responses, but if there’s such a thing as a real “tingle,” that’s it for me. You have so much to offer, I know you will find that woman.”
Such a curious response here – as lots of men feel this way. What gets the tingle response vs. the creep response? The cynic in me says its tingle-generating from a highish-N guy only because he’s needs to be “saved by love”, but it’s creepy for a guy who has no current prospects.
OTC,
I was kinda thinking the same.
HanSolo – “I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.”
THIS. I fully and utterly cosign this statement. It is EXACTLY how I feel about my wife, and partly whey “game” is so freaking frustrating to me. It requires me to constantly keep all that “in check” so that it doesn’t just pour out of me in a torrent, which women mostly seem too overwhelmed to deal with. I’m literally getting back into writing music JUST to find an outlet for some of it. I honestly don’t know if my wife could handle all the emotion I feel for her if I simply let it come out however it wants. I’ve come to the conclusion that THIS is where I needed the most work on frame control. Not that I don’t stand up for myself in general (although I really did NOT stand up for myself with my ex, because of bad programming…) and I’m certainly bullheaded enough to stand my ground. But Lord, there are days I feel so much love for my wife that I fear it would scour her soul bare if I let it flood out.
See? Us INTJs are full of emotion, we simply DO NOT let it out often.
“That was a sincere expression of what I’m feeling (both the part you found moving and the part that you didn’t), of the duel drive to find a deep and meaning love but, if that’s not there, to once in a while have sex. I believe a majority of men are similar to me (neither pure players that never want a true love nor men that are never willing to have a fling) but I suppose what other men think is irrelevant. “
Well having spent most of my youth in LTRs, I can’t say I’ve ever found myself at “if that’s not there, to once in a while have sex.” I’ll fully admit that since I’ve not gone without for longer than about 9 months in one stretch, I can’t say with 100% assurance that I wouldn’t have made a few casual attempts. What I can say is, knowing how I feel about sex, I believe I would have found casual to be a very empty and depressing encounter, so I’m not upset I’ve completely avoided it.
The nagging concept in the back of my head though is: what if I DIDN’T hate it so much?
“ I was kind of dating someone and she asked my N. I told her. It was much higher than hers and what she expected but it wasn’t a deal breaker, though it was a slight turn off to her. “
My wife told me straight up she was really surprised to learn my N was so low. When I explained how I essentially went from LTR to LTR with very little “single” time in between, she said it made perfect sense knowing how I feel about casual and relationship sex. (especially considering I postponed much of our shared sexuality until I felt she was in it for the long haul) She certainly didn’t see it as a DLV, but I suspect that if I’d spent less time in those LTRs, it might have sent up a warning flag for her. Sad but true, many women view low N for a guy to be about as bad as high N.
Lokland – “I need to consider the use of emoticons no matter how much doing so will tear my man card to shreds.”
Bullshit. I’ve been using emoticons for years now in texting, and so far no one has questioned my masculinity because of it. Written communication is SO prevalent now that you simply must find ways to impart some “emotion” on your written words. At least I do, because my writing tends to be dry and bland anyway. Comes from spending years writing technical documentation for NON-techie type people I imagine. :p
Marellus – “… understand ?
It’s a guy thing.”
Yep, another hard lesson of the Red Pill. Women simply CAN NOT love a man the same way a man loves a woman. I believe that men and women certainly FEEL love, but I believe that the way men and women translate love into thoughts and actions is COMPLETELY different, and because of that a woman will never understand how her man loves her. Of course, the same is true in the other direction, and unfortunately for men, a woman’s love tends to often feel very utilitarian. That is, unless a woman knows how to show love in a way her man understands, he can often feel rather unloved by a woman that is nuts for him. This is where communication and “acts of love” go a long way for women I think.
J – “That is very touching, Han. It’s what the right woman is waiting to hear.”
Yeah but common Red Pill wisdom says you should NOT admit to this to a woman, at least not before a relationship is WELL established. Common wisdom says most women would run screaming from the reality of such a statement, despite saying that she finds it to be awfully romantic.
Anne – “Right now I’m just pondering whether he really thought about sending me a Christmas greeting or if it was meaningless.”
He took the time to add you to the send group either way right? It was certainly NOT meaningless. Look, I don’t know you really, but good Lord it seems to me that you are over thinking this. If you like him, SHOW him you like him and quite messing around. If you aren’t sure, then you aren’t really into him and perhaps you are simply chasing because he isn’t?
I wish you the best of luck honestly. You’ve been given a ton of advice here, so you have plenty of POVs to work from. But seriously, don’t spend every waking moment examining what is going on with him. As my grandpa used to say “shit or get off the pot!” You want him? Go get him!
Hope – From HS posted from your blog: “When both people love in this manner, you create a love that is infused with the joy and wonder of the universe itself. It is an amazing, spiritual and transcendant love.”
I agree. But, I think that in many cases such a relationship MUST contain some “compartmentalization” to survive. By that I mean, I feel this type of relationship with my wife, and we tend to share a rather egalitarian view of our love, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of life, we have an established “pecking order” of sorts, that emulates the Captain & First Officer setup from Athol. That is, we love each other without limits, bottlenecks, or any holding back. (for the most part. Like I said above, if I let it all just flow out, I truly believe it would overwhelm my wife…) But, when things need to get done, we kinda set all that aside and simply work on the task at hand. If that means my wife simply follows my “orders” then she does. If it requires a bit of democracy, we vote. If it is something one of us is particularly good at, we take the lead on it. To the outside world, I imagine it looks very much like an egalitarian marriage, but the truth is, behind the scenes it is NOT completely equal. We simply manage to do most of that “jockeying for position” within the relationship without a whole lot of verbal communication. I suspect that in a few more years, we should be able to function at this level with little to no actual communication to set the rules for the encounter. We are still learning to trust each other’s abilities to an extent, and being that I spent most of my life in a rather submissive role with my ex, it is understandable that I need more practice, and she needs to feel like I’ve got a handle on it. But, it makes me chuckle anytime the “who is the boss” line of talk comes up regarding our marriage. My wife says that neither of us is the boss, and that we work things out quickly. That is 100% true, but I also reserve the right to pull rank at any moment on any issue and take the reins, which makes me the “boss” by default. Thing is, we have NEVER found ourselves in a place that required me to do so, but we BOTH know that it WOULD happen if we failed to manage it correctly until things started getting bad. And, if/when I verbalize this during those conversations, my wife acknowledges that it is true but that we try VERY hard to never end up in that spot.
Susan – “I miss him so much. I am humbled by his wisdom. And selfishly, I realize that this one paragraph would have been a complete and eloquent rebuttal to all the stuff in this thread about dread.”
I echo all the statements above. I hope you realize that I am not advocating the use of “dread” in any solid relationship. It will cause an implosion, and if it doesn’t then there are bigger issues at work. I’m simply not willing to toss the concept aside because I currently have no use for it.
As someone who thought he would be spending his life with one woman and found himself single again, I will never again allow myself to be completely unprepared for anything that comes down the road later in life. I promise you that I am doing everything in my power to NOT be in a position that “dread” is the best solution, but I can also promise you that IF I found myself in that position with my wife, I’d damn sure try it out before throwing in the towel.
For guys that for whatever reason want to spend their lives with a woman that needs high “game” though, “dread” may be something he needs to use on a regular basis. I would never sign up for such a relationship, but who is to say that two people can’t actually enjoy the constant jousting match?
@ Cooper, OTC
Same sentiment here.
For me, it is really clear that Han Solo is all about finding a woman of quality before he bestows this gift. He is selective. He acknowledges that he is not perfect, nor does he expect his partner to be. He’s about finding the right match.
As I expressed previously, IME “creepy” is usually reserved for men who 1) either presume too much intimacy as strangers, or who 2) get annoyed or angry when their interest is not reciprocated. Han Solo does neither.
It was the sentiment and implied passion that was tingleworthy, not the man. (Though Han Solo seems like an attractive guy.)
@ Ted D
When I originally commented in response to HanSolo’s post, my reaction was not mean spirited. I simply can’t relate to what he said.
For reasons unclear to me, I experience very averse reactions to male emotions like those, at least verbally stated emotions. I experience a visceral sensation of nausea, and it creeps me out. My actor ex-bf used to say things like that to me, and it made my skin crawl. I’m not very comfortable with very raw emotional outpourings. Emotionally, I’m a woman of few words, and I prefer to show affection through actions instead.
Honestly, my internal system shuts down whenever I read or hear something like what HanSolo said. I don’t know how to handle emotions like that, so I’m wary of them.
@Ted
To be clear, it is one thing for me to find Han Solo’s romantic and passionate statement tingle-inducing online as it applies to someone else. If someone said this to me on a first or even 5th date I would indeed run for the hills.
Ideally, emotional investment should always be calibrated in step with the other person. Failing that, expression of that commitment should be calibrated.
I’m leaving Dread behind in this thread, and not debating it in 2013. However, I will say that many people enjoy the jousting match, which has nothing to do with dread. If she’s ready to give as good as she gets, you can’t make her feel dread. I suppose at its worst, this marriage would look like Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner in The War of the Roses.
As someone who relied heavily on banter when I was single, I can affirm that it generates a lot of sexual tension. In my experience, it’s better for flirtation or STRs than LTRs, but I’ve known couples who are happy keeping each other on their toes.
oops, creepy wasnt the right word here, and that word created an undesired tangent. I meant that the same sentiments expressed by a Ted or Cooper would probably not generate a tingle post, but rather be ignored, or disagreed with. My question was why this is so?
@Marellus
Thanks for the link. That song is very dark; I love the guitar work.
As to Patricia Kass, it depends on what you mean by French. Her mother is West German, and her dad is from Alsace Lorraine. The song was written by a popular French songwriter named Jean-Jacques Goldman. France is pretty multi-cultural these days.
@SW
God, I miss Munson. He was terrific!
@Ted
J – “That is very touching, Han. It’s what the right woman is waiting to hear.”
Ted–Yeah but common Red Pill wisdom says you should NOT admit to this to a woman, at least not before a relationship is WELL established. Common wisdom says most women would run screaming from the reality of such a statement, despite saying that she finds it to be awfully romantic.
J–Depends on the tone, the woman and the context. There are probably a few women who should never hear it, but as long as it’s not said as a declaration of love to some woman Han just met 20 minutes ago, it’s great. It’s a wonderful answer to a question about long-range goals, as in “So, Han, what do you want out of your life?” in one of those late night, soul-searching conversions that new couples have. It should be prefeaced with, “I hope one day to find…”
@Han
I hope I didn’t sound snarky. I believe that you sincerely meant both statements and think that’s fine. I was trying to convey that the first statement was romantic and would tug at a woman’s heart strings. The second will sound to the average woman like, “But until I find that love, I’m willing to kill time screwing you.” You don’t want to say that on a date.
@SW #1114
That’s a great explanation.
@Ted
My wife told me straight up she was really surprised to learn my N was so low. When I explained how I essentially went from LTR to LTR with very little “single” time in between, she said it made perfect sense knowing how I feel about casual and relationship sex.
DH had a similar pattern. Starting with his high school gf, he had LTRs that lasted 4-5 years each before meeting me. He was faithful to all those women and did little messing around between women. This indicated to me that he would loyal if we married, so big DHV as far as I was concerned.
Sad but true, many women view low N for a guy to be about as bad as high N.
Depends. Is the guy desirable but loyal or does he have weird circular scars from where women who worked hard to overcome their repulsion touched him with ten foot poles?
Are guys are any different? Thee are probably plenty of low number size 20 gals, but many men wouldn’t have them. They want that low number 9 or 10.
As someone who relied heavily on banter when I was single, I can affirm that it generates a lot of sexual tension. In my experience, it’s better for flirtation or STRs than LTRs, but I’ve known couples who are happy keeping each other on their toes.
DH and I still do that. There are lines we don’t cross, but we regard a little banter as foreplay.
+1. One time my boyfriend gazed at me admiringly and said, “how did I get you?” Early on in our relationship, this sentiment would have made me cringe. Instead, I giggled and blushed.
That sort of thing means more after time invested — not so much from someone you barely know.
@Just1Z
You, my dear sir, art more of a Talleyrand than a technician. I think you’ve won quite a few battles by never mobilising your armies.
@ SayWhaat
Exactly.
I have definitely cringed at some of the things men have told me during the initial stages of dating. It was way too much and too soon. I don’t think some men realize just how off putting such declarations can be to some women.
Honestly, my internal system shuts down whenever I read or hear something like what HanSolo said. I don’t know how to handle emotions like that, so I’m wary of them.
I think this speaks more to your system of emotional defenses than it does to the actual content of what is being said. You really should explore this Sassy; if you have a better understanding of why this sets you off, you’d have an easier time with trust and relationships. I think you (wisely) distrust words over actions, but words don’t necessarily belie actions. You still need to compare words and actions to see if they’re conguent (Everyone does.), but you might want to hold on to the distrust until you actually see the incongruence.
@Ted D
… so to conquer a woman, one must march to an alien drumbeat … battle with an emotion … and surrender … to an idea …
J,
listen to Beethoven’s 7′th symphony movement 2 … and think of this : There are no sad songs in Heaven …
FTFY.
@ SayWhaat
That’s exactly what I meant.
For the record, I have recently started dating someone. This discussion actually couldn’t come at a better time.
I was honest with him on our last date and told him that I’m not the overly emotional/sappy/sentimental type. I also explained to him that I didn’t like such declarations. He didn’t say anything like that before I mentioned it to him, but I figured I would cut him off at the pass. Since I knew that such declarations bother me, I figured I would let him know about that pet peeve so that he didn’t accidentally step on that “dating/relationship landmine”.
I opened up to him about it after he mentioned that he wasn’t overly romantic. I stated that I was okay with him not being overly romantic and explained why. We appear to be a good match, in that regard.
@Marellus
I will.
@Sassy
It looks like this guy may be compatible. Good luck!
@Sassy
So the choice is between a quiet romantic, or a quiescent acerbic.
@ J
Honestly, I need all the luck I can get. I can objectively admit that my relationships typically don’t last very long. I won’t talk about him much, considering my past track record with such things.
I’d rather just see how things go. I’m not trying to get my hopes up, at this point.
@ Marellus
Yeah, pretty much.
… and for my more intrepid readers, I have heard from a doctor who works in the psychiatric ward of the Tembisa Hospital, that the moon is in fact an Alien Spaceship that’s buggering up everything on Earth … heh … cheerio.
It’s fine to feel that way, and even admit to random people on the internet.
But, in person, saying it to a woman you like… I really believe too much overt gushing is a real attraction-killer. Yes, too early in a realtionsip is a killer, but it does not follow that more time allows men to gush freely. Hasn’t reading MMSL has taught you anything?
It’s not about time, so much as it’s about not showing more beta traits than you are alpha.
@OTC, Cooper, INTJ
WHY HAN SOLO IS SEXY AND YOU’RE NOT
I don’t agree that is true, but I do allow that Han Solo expresses himself very well in writing, and I found his sentiment not only romantic but poetic. Part of what moved me was his way of expressing himself, in addition to the sentiment.
Let me highlight what worked especially well:
“And no, not all women are more catlike but to men who tend to go overboard with too much affection too soon (that act too much like affectionate dogs that run up to their master when she gets home and bury her with attention), keeping that exaggerated metaphor in mind will help them to treat them in a less smothering and more balanced way.
I have developed a more catlike nature. The dog in me is always longing to get out with the right woman though and cover her with affection.”
HS understands female attraction cues. Instead of complaining that women don’t like “nice guys” he chooses a value-neutral metaphor that is apt, and signals his willingness to adjust his behavior without judgment.
I have so much love waiting for the right woman.
Not just any woman, the right woman. HS is selective. He knows what he is looking for, and despite his frustration at not having found her, he will save his love rather than give it to someone who disrespects him as an orbiter, or exhibits a STR orientation, or takes him for granted.
I feel like I have built a dam to hold it back but the rains keep falling and the reservoir is always brimming to the top.
I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.
Poetry. Mastery of language. Romantic.
I felt a kindred spirit and a listening ear in you and so I shared what is really in my soul.
HS has the self-confidence and maturity to speak his mind without shame. That is a very attractive quality in a man. If I heard a man say this in a group, I would immediately feel tempted to qualify myself as a potential mate. Note: This is not the same as confessing a deep and abiding love for a woman one does not know well. His speaking theoretically does not amount to supplication, as their is no actual object.
Again, speaking only for myself, HS’s willingness to have flings when offered is at the very least neutral, and possibly attractive. I have already expressed that a man who was “extremely critical” of casual sex is not someone who would appeal to me.
A clear pledge to be monogamous with a woman he loves. Huge.
Re HS’s number, you referred to him as “high N.” I don’t know what his N is, but recall that I don’t balk at N at the level you do. The sweetest boys I know who would prefer a gf to any ONS are all in the range of 10 in their mid-20s.
I also don’t have the same degree of N revulsion that most men on here do.
+1
Hi HUS friends,
I have no idea what’s been happening over the last few weeks around these parts but just wanted to let you all know I had another bipolar episode and for that reason have not been around. Hope everyone is having merry festivities! There’s been some crazy snow around here, which made for a lovely white Christmas.
@Olive
Thanks for checking in. I for one have been wondering and hoping for the best. I’m really sorry to hear you had an episode – I hope that your meds get squared away quickly (assuming some adjustments will be made). We’ll be thinking of you and I hope you will return to chit chat asap! I need you Olive, you keep me honest.
xoxo
Gushing about true love from a strong frame does not land one at MMSL. Instead, it’s a page right out of a romance novel.
Frame. It’s all about that.
Susan, cosign on the romantic/poetic language. If I recall correctly, HanSolo is an NF, so it probably appeals to the NF in you.
My husband gushed at the beginning, but very eloquently. He doesn’t do that so much anymore, and so I’ll go back and read his old emails and chats to me from those days just to get a dose.
I actually got a bit upset when a couple of months into living together, he stopped being quite as demonstrative with his affections. We had a talk about it, and I dialed back my expectations.
These days he doesn’t write me long letters expressing his feelings. But he’s very free with physical affection and tells me he loves me often.
Hope,
Totally rings true for me, which makes me think my BF is NF as well. I’m at my parents’ right now and found an old card he wrote me for our one-year anniversary and totally got all mushy about him and sent it to him in a facebook message with a note saying how much it still means to me.
I also can totally relate to this. I’m such a “wordsy” person and that part of my relationship is fairly over at this point. But we’re both very affectionate physically just the same. Being away from him right now is quite draining on the relationship, I fear. Not in a “we’re going to break up” way, but in a “we need to see more of each other soon” way.
Susan,
Thanks for the kind words!
“Gushing about true love from a strong frame does not land one at MMSL. Instead, it’s a page right out of a romance novel.
Frame. It’s all about that.”
That may be true, but the more a man “gushes” the stronger his frame will have to be. I would need a Superman sized frame to counteract the amount of “gush” I am fully capable of I suspect.
@ Ted:
Then be her Superman.
@Susan,
He said he tried to call the other night (when my phone was dead). He wanted to see me tonight, but I had a family get together. His message was sweet so he doesn’t appear cold at all!
No worries, I heard from him today
@Hope
I recently read your blog post containing excerpts of his letters, and I was struck by the eloquence. I can understand why you like rereading them, but also why he no longer writes that way. We cannot possibly remain in that frame of mind and still get our work done!
@Anne
You silly girl! Here you are giving yourself an ulcer and all appears to be well!
I’m glad things feel positive – but it does not change the value of all the good advice you’ve gotten here. Russ and Han Solo in particular have been very supportive and helpful, I think. You would do well to consider their feedback. I understand that you will let him initiate moving forward, and it sounds like that’s on track. Your job is to make him feel secure that you really, really like him. Do the nice, feminine gestures starting now. It’s your job to escalate emotionally. That’s the takeaway message from this post.
Olive, I hope you’ve been having a good holiday season aside from your flare-up, and sorry to hear that you couldn’t be with your boyfriend for the holidays.
It’s funny how guys claim that gushy words don’t work on teh wimmenfolk, but it really depends on the thoughtfulness and romance that go into the words! I’m also glad to not be the only one to re-read old love letters.
Susan, it’s true, we can’t get much work done with too much limerant obsession. Sometimes he is still very eloquent verbally when we talk at length, which is difficult to reminisce unless I actually record our conversations, and that’s a bit weird.
I can understand why you like rereading them, but also why he no longer writes that way. We cannot possibly remain in that frame of mind and still get our work done!
It’s the inevitable death of dopamine love; our brains just can’t pump it out on a steady basis year after year. We couldn’t survive if they did. The good news is that, if you have a solid basis, oxytocin love, which is far more trustworthy IMHO, replaces it.
@Olive
Sorry to hear about your flare-up; these things often seem tied to the holidays. Glad to hear that you are feeling better.
Hans : “I have so much love waiting for the right woman.”
Susan: “Not just any woman, the right woman. HS is selective. He knows what he is looking for, and despite his frustration at not having found her, he will save his love rather than give it to someone who disrespects him as an orbiter, or exhibits a STR orientation, or takes him for granted.”
Hans: I feel like I have built a dam to hold it back but the rains keep falling and the reservoir is always brimming to the top.
I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.”
Susan: “Poetry. Mastery of language. Romantic.”
Hans: “I felt a kindred spirit and a listening ear in you and so I shared what is really in my soul.”
Susan: “HS has the self-confidence and maturity to speak his mind without shame. That is a very attractive quality in a man. If I heard a man say this in a group, I would immediately feel tempted to qualify myself as a potential mate. Note: This is not the same as confessing a deep and abiding love for a woman one does not know well. His speaking theoretically does not amount to supplication, as their is no actual object. ”
I totally agree with your take, here, Susan.
HS is a very romantic kind of guy . Extremely articulate.
He’d have me swooning if I was a young single woman.
I see no supplicating in his writings. Just confidence strength and complete honesty..
No playing games. No subterfuge.
I was reminded of the Romantic Poets.
HS ‘s writing certainly is romatic poetic Susan.
::applause::
Good job, Anne.
@Sai Thanks
@Marellus, I’ll let you know when I find the woman behind the counter
@Susan, thanks for thinking I have a lot to offer
@OTC, I felt the same way about wanting to love and be loved when I had N=0. I don’t think that anyone would find INTJ or Cooper creepy on here if they expressed the emotion of really wanting to love and be loved. I think the regulars on here know they want that and are cheering for them.
@Ted
I love that you’re a hopeless romantic at heart.
I think most of the time you should keep the spillways shut but once in a while you can let out a surge of love and take her by surprise. But it can’t be so often that it loses it’s specialness.
@J
No problem. I probably wrote too much in response to you anyway. By ending with the line about fucking and waiting it was meant as a contrast to the kind of love I really want and drive home the point of the feeling of futility and shallowness of the flings in comparison to sex with love. Yes, the flings are sometimes exciting and pleasurable but in comparison to a deeper love they are relatively empty.
@Susan 1136, and Kathy 1150
Thanks for the compliments.
It’s been some painful experiences that taught me to gush less and be more catlike around women.
I do find it fascinating how many women love to have the man she finds attractive and starts to fall in love with EVENTUALLY fall for her. But she needs that struggle and uncertainty about his level of interest for her love to grow. The two steps forward, one step back to give her time to miss and process his interest and let her heart grow its desire and feelings.
It’s like a woman’s love is a seed growing into a flower and the man’s love is the water.
No water and it will never grow.
Too much and it the seed or tiny plant will be swept away.
The right amount allows the seed to stay put in the soil and roots to take hold. As the plant grows larger, more water is needed.
Something that helped drive home the need for a man to not direct too much emotion to a woman too soon was imagining how I would feel if I picked up a woman for a first or second date and she comes to the door in a v-string and a sexy bra with her purse in tow and says let’s go as she steps outside and closes the door.
Yeah, I want to see her in that eventually but at the right time and place. Too soon or for all to see will make me feel like it’s not something special.
Not a perfect analogy but the power of the vivid image is enough for me to remember in moments where I want to “walk out” with my emotional pants down and bare all too soon.
@Han
this guy might be of interest to you
http://22to28.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/the-people-who-are-supposed-to-love-you-the-most/
but generally his posts are interesting, not just that one, try this excerpt
an interesting combination of facts. If you add in the fact that he was the guy who had a screaming harpy feminist having hysterics at him and calling him scum at the University of Toronto, Warren Farrell contretemps. He acted with supreme dignity (avfm has a lot of coverage of the event and has named names). Interesting guy.
he’s got a variety of posts which I’ll be continuing to peruse in the future. I can’t sum him up, but…he’s very picky about the woman that he wants and is waiting for her…take a gander, or not, best of luck either way.
I wish we lived in a world where being a decent guy automatically lead to a happy life, but that isn’t my impression of how things work.
@Anne
Good luck with the relationship
Remember, you are 22. You have a lot of time to do mistakes. Just make sure you learn something from them. Stephen does NOT have to be THE ONE.
However, if you want him to be the one, make him hand-made present. Something, which is not bought. Give him in privacy. Smile.
@Anacaona
Yes, you have summarised what i have written very well. My point was exactly that: smart people are so often right, that they start to use heuristic “I am right” always. The same is with guys having “models” of reality. With the wrong models you can at least point that they are wrong. The problem is with models which are “almost true”.
@Everybody
Szczęśliwego Nowego Roku, spełnienia najskrytszych marzeń i wystarczająco dużo zdrowia i wolnego czasu, by móc się tymi spełnieniami cieszyć
“I wish we lived in a world where being a decent guy automatically lead to a happy life, but that isn’t my impression of how things work.”
Yes, Just1x, you make a good point.
I had that very same thought.
Men are reticent to lay their cards on the table for good reason.
There are quite a few ball busting feminists out there, that have ruined the natural order between men and women…
I find that very sad.
@szopen
“Szczęśliwego Nowego Roku, spełnienia najskrytszych marzeń i wystarczająco dużo zdrowia i wolnego czasu, by móc się tymi spełnieniami cieszyć”
that’s easy for you to say…
)
(hopefully the humour translates from British
Happy New Year
@Kathy
yeah, the videos of the University of Toronto protest were disgusting. Warren Farrell is nobody (sane)’s idea of a woman hater. It turns out that Mr 22to28 was going because he’d lost two male friends to suicide, he was looking to understand.
anyway
I’m glad that you survived xmas, and may your new year be happy
Best wishes from Atlantis to all…
Lord. My IQ in Polish is about the same as my shoe size…
Dzenkuje! Ale gdzie jest Han Solo kralowa kruka?
@Han Solo
Damn, you’re good! Between you and Damien, the metaphors around here have been awesome lately!
Seriously, this explains it very well. I would also note that some women can grow feelings with little water – a strange and deformed “love” may desperately seek the light. It should not be mistaken for a healthy plant.
HanSolo – “I love that you’re a hopeless romantic at heart.”
If I could figure out how to kill that off without breaking the rest, I’d rid myself of it in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, it is that “hopeless romantic” that probably keeps me from going postal on people. “Love” is one of the emotions I feel for individual people that gives me hope for the rest that piss me off on a regular basis.
As it is, digesting the Red Pill had me almost to the point that I wanted to simply give up on it entirely and simply do my best to live in a logical and reality based manner. But the truth is, that world is too damn stark for me to survive with whatever humanity I have in me intact. Love for my family and friends is what keeps me connected with the rest of humanity it seems.
Anne,
I am happy to hear that things sound to be moving forward. If I may be a little selfish here, this is sort of like a living novel and I cannot wait to hear how the story ends. =)
It is very inspiring an I continue to wish you well.
Anne – Glad things seem to be working out for you. Keep it up! And whatever you do, DO NOT over think this!
(Of course I’m not suggesting you go in dumb and blind, but you really do seem to be thinking far too much about this. How can you enjoy falling in love if you are so stressed about the details?)
Yes, you have summarised what i have written very well. My point was exactly that: smart people are so often right, that they start to use heuristic “I am right” always. The same is with guys having “models” of reality. With the wrong models you can at least point that they are wrong. The problem is with models which are “almost true”.
Sadly the self selecting nature of first world friendships/relationships guarantees that people very unlikely get challenged on their false assumptions till is too late and they start to screw themselves over without any idea how to fix it.
@Ana
“Sadly the self selecting nature of first world friendships/relationships guarantees that people very unlikely get challenged on their false assumptions till is too late and they start to screw themselves over without any idea how to fix it.”
first world men (not counting leftist/liberals) are pretty likely to argue out differences of opinions (aka false assumptions). check out any number of manosphere sites – there is no shortage of differing opinions out there…quite the opposite, in fact(!)
political correctness is what prevents the destruction of false assumptions, and that is not a masculine attribute, quite the reverse…you can fill in the blanks, can’t you? I can’t be arsed to start a flame war, but I couldn’t let your false assumption stand (which kind of proves my point, I believe)
Best of luck Anne!!
first world men (not counting leftist/liberals) are pretty likely to argue out differences of opinions (aka false assumptions). check out any number of manosphere sites – there is no shortage of differing opinions out there…quite the opposite, in fact(!)
I meant in real life, Internet allows for the people that are inclined to search for more than confirmation bias to do so, but in real life most people avoid the people they don’t agree with in important matters, at least that is what I had observed.
And not for something completely different:
Dating just got more difficult, just what we needed:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/perfect-10-never-mind-ask-015017521.html
@Ana
we clearly never met IRL… lmfao
Just1Z – “we clearly never met IRL… lmfao”
LOL cosigned. Some of the most spirited “debates” I’ve had were with friends of friends that I KNOW BEYOND ALL DOUBT do not agree with most of my viewpoints. I’ve purposely gone to the occasional social event JUST to strike up such a debate.
Strangely enough, although most of my friends are as conservative as I am, many of them have some VERY liberal friends…
@TedD
yes – that is a masculine friendship to me. have a strong disagreement, heated discussion and then have a beer and let it go if no resolution was possible. the herd instinct is not something that I sign up for.
as I have previously said; there is no difference between me online and me IRL – I am the same person. I would be very surprised if you were different round the BBQ than around the keyboard. that is not a grown-up, masculine trait imho.
I have, however, seen women go to extraordinary lengths to paper over deep differences of opinion – I just fail to see the point. If there is no honesty, there’s no point in the conversation…(imho) but then I am neither a herd or pack person unless there is a pressing need. Someone said that INTJs don’t like to be lead, or to lead unless it is necessary, that sounds awfully like me…
@TedD
perhaps the ladies here fail to recognise how much the conversation IS toned down (by many of the masculine minded men)…
just a thought (a funny one)
Just1Z – “I would be very surprised if you were different round the BBQ than around the keyboard.”
Well, other than the fact that I purposely “choose my words” online, I’m pretty much the same in person. I would simply warn people with more sensitive ears that such “debates” are usually filled with expletives and generally foul language. Think drunken sailor combined with irate truck driver, and you’re pretty close to the mark.
“I have, however, seen women go to extraordinary lengths to paper over deep differences of opinion – I just fail to see the point.”
Well that is mostly because women want to be “part of the herd” more than they want to be right. It is more important to keep people from being angry at you, because of the fear of being kicked out of the accepted group.
“but then I am neither a herd or pack person unless there is a pressing need.”
I am part of a pack (my friends) but only because I choose to be, they choose to be, and we mutually benefit from being in the pack. Otherwise? I really don’t care much about what anyone thinks.
“Someone said that INTJs don’t like to be lead, or to lead unless it is necessary, that sounds awfully like me…”
I don’t mind being led, provided the “leader” is someone I respect and trust, AND I feel that they are leading towards something productive. I HATE being led by people that use propaganda (think rhetoric) to “convince” me they are worthy of my efforts.
And I truly HATE leading. Not because I am not capable, or even that I fear the responsibility. I truly don’t like depending on others to get things done, and knowing how different I tend to think from the average person, I often feel that my ideas are not good for mass consumption. This has been a sticking point with the Red Pill for me since day one. I have very little doubt of my abilities and solutions for myself, but I question if any of it is valid at all for anyone other than myself. To be frank it is still something that troubles me in my marriage, but I continue to take the lead role figuring that my wife trusted me enough to marry me, so she must have faith in my abilities to lead her and our family down the right path.
@Anacoana
Maybe credit score should go on the backside of the “Got INTJ?” T-shirts.
that kind of golddigging, (male OR female) is why I stopped bothering to date women in Dallas.
Han: “@OTC, I felt the same way about wanting to love and be loved when I had N=0. I don’t think that anyone would find INTJ or Cooper creepy on here if they expressed the emotion of really wanting to love and be loved.”
Creepy wasn’t the right word. Ignored, or found boring, might be better. I think preselection has a lot to do with it, if you posted that same stuff with n=0. The flowery language helps.
Sue: “WHY HAN SOLO IS SEXY AND YOU’RE NOT ”
Heheh, nice try… enough women in real life find me sexy to make me happy. You should worry about the other guys, who are still looking.
@OTC
Well, I wouldn’t ignore them. Though I’m different than them, I do feel a certain fraternity with them and wish them well and understand (to some extent) where they’re coming from since I was a voluntary virgin for many years back in my religious days.
I think if they expressed their desires with no complaining or neediness (not saying they are that way or are doing it) that it would be well-received.
I don’t doubt you are sexy. Obviously Susan was being a snarkess with that comment.
I really don’t think my non-zero N had anything to do with them liking the words I shared with Marellus. In fact, I think they liked them in spite of my N.
Sue: “Re HS’s number, you referred to him as “high N.”
But I said high-ISH.
Sue: “I don’t know what his N is, but recall that I don’t balk at N at the level you do.”
You must have me confused with someone else. I don’t balk at high N – which I define as around 2x median, age-adjusted. Now, I might balk at very high N, which I consider more like 4 or 5x the age-adjusted median. Even then, it’s not an absolute dealbreaker.
Age adjusted is everything. A 32-year old is very different than an 18-year old.
Sue: “The sweetest boys I know who would prefer a gf to any ONS are all in the range of 10 in their mid 20s”
Of course they prefer GFs, girlfriends come back for more, over the uncertainty of a random ONS.
But they are all high N to me.
Sue: “Gushing about true love from a strong frame does not land one at MMSL. Instead, it’s a page right out of a romance novel. Frame. It’s all about that.”
Agree, frame is what allows, not time itself.
@Ted’s
we don’ t appear to have any significant differences of opinion…though I doubt that you expected many
Yes.
How come I’m called snarky when I used a winky face?!? Anyway, just teasing.
I think the answer to the question, in a nutshell, is that Han Solo has fully digested the perfect dosage of the red pill. No bitter aftertaste, no angry flareups.
It’s clear that not all men accomplish this the same way, or in the same timeframe. The fact that Han Solo can talk about sex differences without rancor indicates that he has done so, and that he is ready for the relationship he wants. The man who resists the truths, for whatever reason, will carry resentment into any relationship, holding the woman accountable for something biological (assuming he has filtered effectively for character).
Just1Z -”we don’ t appear to have any significant differences of opinion…though I doubt that you expected many”
Oh I’m sure we’d be on the same side of the BBQ debate team most of the time. Cool thing is to me it doesn’t really matter. As long as its a good debate played fair and square, like mindedness isn’t a requirement for friendship and shared beers.
@Ted’s . true
“I really don’t think my non-zero N had anything to do with them liking the words I shared with Marellus. In fact, I think they liked them in spite of my N.”
I think this just highlights what OTC was originally saying, CMIIW, when he suspected the “saved by love” tinge can only come from a man that is inured. (if that’s the right word)
I shouldn’t have said “can only,” but what I think OTC was pointing out was that such declarations of wanting love, coming from seasoned man, seems like they could get accepted with a tingle compared to perhaps the “skin crawl” or cringe (#1115/1122) that the girls feel coming from a guy too early – if it came from one with less preselection.
just a thought
Anacoana…”dly the self selecting nature of first world friendships/relationships guarantees that people very unlikely get challenged on their false assumptions till is too late”
G K Chesterton wrote about this…”The man who lives in a small community lives in a much larger world. He knows much more of the fierce varieties and uncompromising divergences of men. The reason is obvious. In a large community we can choose our companions. In a small community our companions are chosen for us. Thus in all extensive and highly civilized societies groups come into existence founded upon what is called sympathy, and shut out the real world more sharply than the gates of a monastery. There is nothing really narrow about the clan; the thing that is really narrow is the clique….The men of the clique live together because they have the same kind of soul, and their narrowness is a narrowness of spiritual coherence and contentment like that which exists in hell”
Related post: Drucker and Chesterton on the Individual and the Community
@Cooper
I just don’t think it was the saved-by-love tingle at all. I think it was the words and the feelings themselves. I think they would have been more powerful spoken by someone who was committed to only sex within love, not someone like myself who takes the easy way out at times and has flings.
I don’t like the fact that women get turned off by what they perceive to be excessive male interest in them too soon. But I accept it and work with it. I do understand the point about them wanting to be loved for more than their looks and I actually agree that really rapid “love” on the part of the man is more likely infatuation/lust than not. However, I think a man can learn enough about a woman’s character to begin to love her sooner than most women would imagine and so I don’t like that it’s still a turnoff to many women after what would seem like a reasonable amount of time to get to know her but the bottom line is that that’s how most women are. So, we can either adapt to that or we can hunt within the small part of the female population that doesn’t get turned off by such male emoting.
I personally don’t want to date a woman who is overly turned off by my being emotional since I want that strong emotional connection. I am, however, willing to search for the right woman in the middle of the spectrum and exercise self control long enough for her to fall in love with me.
@Susan
A teasing snarkess in smiley-faced clothes! j/k lol I realized you were teasing.
Cooper, exactly right.
Han: “I think they would have been more powerful spoken by someone who was committed to only sex within love, not someone like myself who takes the easy way out at times and has flings.”
Yes, but only if they had in the past had flings and now turns them down.
An alpha is: A man who has immediate, known, conscious prospects with multiple women right now, knows it, and either:
1. Excercises those now (player), or
2. Exercised them in the past, but stopped due to his own volition (reformed) and not external pressure, or
3. Refuses to excerise them out of his own volition (unicorn) and not external pressure
I agree, and #3 is the most powerful, and perhaps the rarity makes it even more powerful.
But I disagree that only an alpha can say that and have it be powerful. The sentiment in the abstract can be admired in anyone. In terms of whether a woman would find that attractive being (eventually) directed at her will depend on whether or not she finds the man attractive or not (and in whatever combo of alpha and beta properties she likes).
@david foster
Its good to see that someone already noticed that. Great read in your blog. I recommend it to anyone here.
@just1z
Yes, but it seems that what is typical for the males is the struggle to make evertyhing to fit into nice, simple models. I do not mean this is typical only for males. However, from my experience the females, ‘xcept the few (feminists? or scientists) do not have this strong, almost subconscious drive to find HOW THINGS WORK just for the sake of finding out, and to built internal models of world.
I said this is not a vice. However, as a result, once a male builts good enough model -this is at least in my experience – a lot of males starts to see a world through his model, and if something does not fit the model, it is chopped away.
This is not a question of refusing to discuss, or to refuse to confront your model – it is about inability to see that the model is just the model, the inclination to not see the vices of the model no matter what the results of the confrontations are. As one said before in this thread, a map reflects real terrain, but map is not real terrain.
@szopen
I agree about remembering that a model is just a model, I also think that one should always be able to adapt the model to reality as an ongoing process.
As the old saying goes, “the map is not the terrain.”
“But I disagree that only an alpha can say that and have it be powerful.”
As a general rule, the readiness with which an idea is accepted is directly proportional to the attractiveness of its speaker.
Natural human state of being. We ignore the ugly and watch the attractive.
So a man with higher N is typically more attractive and thus it would be expected that woman would give his opinion more weight. The same could be said for the proper musculature, height, vocal tone etc.
A woman who gets a boob job would likely find an increase in the value of her opnion from men.
Simply is. Not necessarily fair but thats irrelevant.
Last,
Some commenters propose ideas that are more readily accepted than others. Part of that is delivery style, the content etc.
Some could deliver a woman are evil are speech and have it accepted with applause and giggles (ie. dogsquat, not saying he would merely that he could).
A significant portion is the percieved attractivness of the commenter. Its not surprising merely a fact of life. More weight is given to the opinions of the attractive.
As the person who found Han Solo’s impassioned defense of love tingle-worthy, I can assure you that my response had nothing to do with perceiving Han Solo as alpha or as a former or current player, or even as a man with previous sexual experience.
I have always been drawn to emotionally expressive men, and that includes one “love at first sight” relationship where such mutual declarations were made within days.
The alpha/beta dichotomy is a red herring here. I find Han’s sentiment attractive in general, but obviously would only want to be the recipient of that love if I was very attracted and invested myself.
As for #3, it’s clear both from the research and from the male commenters here that many men prefer relationships to flings. And many women prefer relationship-oriented men to players.
Considering that few here are aware of physical appearance, I find this comment very interesting. IIRC, Han Solo, Cooper w/o a shirt, and INTJ w/o a shirt have all elicited their share of oooohs and aaaaahs from the female commentariat.
Online demeanor certainly plays a role in how one’s ideas are received by others. It’s the same IRL, no? Dogsquat (where is he?) is quite diplomatic, but I disagree with your assessment. I have gone toe to toe with him on the topic of female agency and whether they are responsible for being deceived by cads. What sets DS apart is his continued civility and lack of fist pumping. That makes all the difference.
It must also be said that there are some commenters whose insights are generally profound and thoughtful regardless of which side they’re arguing, and I am far more likely to consider their arguments than someone who is very invested in the adversarial Team Man vs. Team Woman battles.
@Susan
“Online demeanor certainly plays a role in how one’s ideas are received by others. It’s the same IRL, no?”
Its to close to Christmas to debate.
I believe the way something is delivered is based upon perception which is correlated to attractiveness. Ie. Two people could say something argumentative in exactly the same voice/ body language and the less attractive individual would be considered more argumentative.
“Considering that few here are aware of physical appearance”
I know what a decent number of the men here look like (5 or 6). Women few.
I’ve listened to self described characteristics and could probably provide a decent profile for quite a few commenters just off the top of my head. But I have a memory that sucks up numbers and facts like a 5 year old does candy.
Also, people have provided their own SMV ranks or given enough personal details that I would be able to guesstimate their SMVs within a couple points.
I suspect that subconsciously these perceptions do play a part in perception of another persons argument.
Note: Demeanour likely trumps attractiveness online. Just so thats clear.
Looks (perceived) likely also plays a part but smaller.
Quality of photograph makes such a huge difference online as to be moot, in my opinion. (and ability to communicate far outweighs, imho – I’d comfortably say I’m a five who can look either good or awful, but never supersexyfantastico, and haven’t had any difficulty having ideas accepted…..though that may have to with Mr. Chesterton….)
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