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7 Reasons Women Reject Eager Men

new-years-day-soulmate-300dpi

Guys who actually like relationships and are interested in having a girlfriend find it very frustrating and baffling when women balk at early commitment. It’s a recurring theme among the guy readers here, and in a recent comment thread reader HanSolo explained it with a metaphor:

To 80% accuracy women are like cats. Cats are not like dogs. Cats do not want to mate with dogs. So, you need to show a little more catlike behavior at first to get that pussy (-cat) interested in you. Remember how cats come up and sit on the lap of the person who ignores it and only once it’s decided it wants you does it want to be petted and start receiving the more “doglike” affection.

Not all women are more catlike but to men who tend to go overboard with too much affection too soon (that act too much like affectionate dogs that run up to their master when she gets home and bury her with attention), keeping that exaggerated metaphor in mind will help them to treat them in a less smothering and more balanced way.

HanSolo doesn’t like it that women do not appreciate eager, unconditional affection from the start, and he doesn’t quite understand why this should be so, but he does accept it:

I have developed a more catlike nature. The dog in me is always longing to get out with the right woman though and cover her with affection.

I have so much love waiting for the right woman.

I feel like I have built a dam to hold it back but the rains keep falling and the reservoir is always brimming to the top.

I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.

Until then, I fuck the occasional pussy and wait.

Women fantasize about finding that kind of love with a man, as the Romance Literature industry attests. However, it should be noted that in female fantasy, this level of commitment and devotion from a man is hard won, not a thing to be given away lightly. Women understand this instinctively – we can be extremely interested in a guy, pinching ourselves over our good fortune in attracting this gorgeous man, only to find him unappealing and yes, creepy, within a date or two. His eagerness to be immediately and deeply in love sounds alarm bells. 

Why do women discount and dismiss men who are eager to commit themselves right away?

1. Women understand the male role as the gatekeeper of commitment, just as we are the gatekeepers of sex.

In the same way that a man may question the long-term potential of a woman who grabs his junk on the first date, women are wary of men who are “emotionally promiscuous.” 

Certain it is I liked her, 
And boarded her i’ the wanton way of youth: 
She knew her distance and did angle for me,
Madding my eagerness with her restraint, 
As all impediments in fancy’s course 
Are motives of more fancy; and, in fine, 
Her infinite cunning, with her modern grace, 
Subdued me to her rate: she got the ring;

Shakespeare, All’s Well That Ends Well

2. Some people are serial monogamists – the minute one relationship ends, they’re auditioning everyone in their sphere as a potential replacement.

A fellow SM may happily make the deal quickly, but most people want to take their time selecting a relationship partner, and they want to be evaluated and chosen with the same care. 

3. A hasty attempt to elicit commitment has a vibe of desperation about it.

Like a used car salesman, he doesn’t want you to spend time looking under the hood, and he’s peevish if you want to think about the decision for a while. People with options tend to weigh them carefully, so rushing into a relationship implies a lack of options, and it carries the whiff of insecurity or fear.

4. Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.

Women do not want to be robbed of this opportunity to compete with other females. If there are no other females competing for him, a guy benefits from holding to his high standards in any case. Having low standards, or worse, none (like our friend in the comic above), is a turnoff to women. 

5. There’s an expression women share: “How you get him is how you lose him.”

It’s often applied to situations where a guy cheats on his gf and then dumps her for the new girl. It’s a bad way to start a new relationship, because New Girl is now with Cheater Boyfriend.

The concept applies here as well – if a guy falls for women at the drop of a hat, even if you think he’s great, you’re going to wonder when that may happen again. When he runs out for beer? When he sees his ex over the holidays? When an attractive new woman joins his firm? Guys who go all in too soon are impulsive guys, and impulsive guys are unpredictable guys. They’re flighty.

6. Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men.

The “cost” of sex is much higher for women than it is for men. Every sexual encounter carries the risk of pregnancy. In addition, women are far more likely to contract STDs then men are. 

The cad’s tried and true mating strategy is lying about his feelings in order to get sex. He is willing to say almost anything to snag that innocent young thing who’s obviously looking for a boyfriend. Believing a man’s declarations of feeling when he’s known you a short time is a high risk move for women.  

In addition, narcissistic men with low empathy are very good at Instant Love and sweeping women off their feet. They know the script, and they know how to play their part in the movie that is their life. They’re strictly on a short-term timetable – if they take much time you’ll figure out they have nothing to offer. In and out is the best strategy, so they tend to declare their “feelings” very quickly.

7. We worry about buyer’s remorse.

When a man commits very soon, he is in the state of lust or infatuation. He is certainly creating his own idea of his beloved as perfection. Most of us know this will wear off. The more you have exalted us, the farther we will fall, and then you will not want us anymore.

I should note that there are exceptions to this general female “rule.” I have known several couples who met, had sex within hours, and essentially started living together that first night. Those relationships are extremely symbiotic, but they appear to suit some people very well. 

What have I missed? Girls, are you wary of guys who are “yours” from the first hello? Do you want to earn a man’s love? Or do you feel that’s just playing games, and you want him eager and willing from the start? What is the best way for a man who really does fall for you quickly to handle himself and increase your attraction to him?

 

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  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    ” Some people are serial monogamists – the minute one relationship ends, they’re auditioning everyone in their sphere as a potential replacement. ”

    This. There are men out there who have never lived without women. They go straight from their mother’s home into their first girlfriend’s apartment. They have never learned how to live alone or be alone with themselves. Never developed a solid relationship with the most important person in their lives – their own self.

    I have been the rebound relationship for three such men. One was living in a dangerous and depressing neighborhood with his mother after having broken a few years before with his girlfriend whom he shared an apartment with. He wanted to make a shift in his life and thought moving to the other side of the country (and in with me) would be the catalyst. He came on hot and heavy early on with declarations of love and life long plans and promises.

    “There’s an expression women share: “How you get him is how you lose him.”

    This. I lost the above guy via the internet, the same way I met him.
    He had moved out of my apartment and directly into the apartment of another woman he had met online during the time we were breaking up while still sharing the same space. During that time he had also made a trip to meet her in person and did not even bother to rent his own separate hotel room but stayed in her apartment. Then he returned from the trip and it was just a matter of weeks before he again moved a thousand miles across the country to live in a new girlfriend’s apartment.

    I don’t understand this need to jump from one relationship directly into another. How about putting on your big boy pants and learning to live on your own for once?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Rebound Girlfriend

      I don’t understand this need to jump from one relationship directly into another. How about putting on your big boy pants and learning to live on your own for once?

      Welcome, you’re a first-time commenter if I’m not mistaken.

      I agree. Both sexes do this, it’s a personality trait, I think. I think it has to do with a fear of being alone. Who wants the job of babysitter to someone who’s afraid of being independent?

  • Deli

    //I don’t understand this need to jump from one relationship directly into another. How about putting on your big boy pants and learning to live on your own for once?

    I would just like to point out, that this is the rare example of using “man-up” language, where it actually feels applicable and appropriate.

    Kudos.

    Although this overall post sounds so strangely familiar, that I am afraid it’s one of those gender-switch troll-posts (you know, those, where you substitute every instance of “man” with “woman” and visa versa to get the initial article).

    My apologies in case this is a post from an actual experience.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Totally from experience, and more than one. Of course I’m sure there are women who do that too but being a woman myself I wouldn’t be on the receiving end of it. Only men can tell those stories.

    Another one. A knew a couple who divorced. Before even moving out of the house the soon to be ex husband was trying to lure me in to a relationship with him. I was open to dating him but he was looking “for more”. We remained friends and toyed with the idea of dating once he moved out and got his own place. During that time he met another woman who was eager to move him into her place, which he did. I asked him why he didn’t just get his own place and experience what it was like to live all alone for the first time in his life. He said, “yeah, I probably need to experience that someday”.

    Some people are just afraid of being alone I guess.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “I don’t understand this need to jump from one relationship directly into another. How about putting on your big boy pants and learning to live on your own for once?”

    Why? The relationship’s over, why not just be happy the person you used to care so much about has found someone & isn’t heartbroken & suicidal?

    The ‘spending some alone time working on myself’ thing is very much a female pastime, & something women in general seem to be able to do far more happily than the majority of men, who simply aren’t wired that way. The kind of men who like being in a relationship often find it very hard to be alone later, once it fails. And, at this point in human history, the ones that DO decide to ‘work on being alone’ are much more likely to lose the taste for relationships at all & find themselves happier becoming either pickup artists or MGTOW, neither of which are likely to serve your greater interests.

    As with many sex differences, you don’t have to understand it, but you’ll feel a lot happier about the world if you let yourself accept it.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Why? The relationship’s over, why not just be happy the person you used to care so much about has found someone & isn’t heartbroken & suicidal? ”

    I was happy for him. He would not have been heartbroken or suicidal since our breakup was mutual. I still don’t understand this fear of getting your own place though.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Whoah… A page of extremes…

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    #4 is the thing I have hard time understanding. So we all know men are supposed to show interest and approach but then we’re supposed to play hard to get after we already show interest to basically play a meaningless game so someone can feel like they won the prize? Maybe I’m too far along on the autistic/omega/gamma/C.H.U.D./whatever spectrum to wrap my head around it all…..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So we all know men are supposed to show interest and approach but then we’re supposed to play hard to get after we already show interest to basically play a meaningless game so someone can feel like they won the prize?

      The point is, there should be many steps between approaching and offering commitment, and they should relate to your standards for being in a LTR. If you don’t have any, that’s a DLV, to put it mildly.

  • Sleeper

    \\I don’t understand this need to jump from one relationship directly into another. How about putting on your big boy pants and learning to live on your own for once?

    What about the guy that’s had his own place for years before the failed relationship and already knows what it’s like to live on his own? What sage advice do you have for him? Get a roommate? Not the same.

    You don’t have to understand it. If it’s not your cup of tea, don’t drink it.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “What about the guy that’s had his own place for years before the failed relationship and already knows what it’s like to live on his own?”

    What about him?

    “What sage advice do you have for him?”

    None. I merely repeated two points that I could relate to from this list and explained why, from personal experience, I could relate to them.

  • Maven7

    > 1. Women understand the male role as the gatekeeper of commitment, just as we are the gatekeepers of sex.
    I am jaded, but this is bs. Very few women are able to understand those concepts. Anyway, 90% of women do not guard their sex-card properly.

    > 2. Some people are serial monogamists – the minute one relationship ends, they’re auditioning everyone in their sphere as a potential replacement.
    What’s wrong with that?
    Women usually end one relationship while being in another. Sometimes, ever sperm-sharing. After one relationship, you should find another one by any means necessary.

    > 3. A hasty attempt to elicit commitment has a vibe of desperation about it.
    100% True

    > 4. Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.
    Again, BS – if the guy has fucked woman she already selected him. She gave up sex-card at this stage. If guy is eager to commit means he’s serious.

    > 5. There’s an expression women share: “How you get him is how you lose him.”
    no opinion

    > 6. Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men.
    It’s the best method to betanize and fustrate normal guy. Cads will put her in rotation (as they have other chicks).

    > 7. We worry about buyer’s remorse.
    Another BS. Average guy is happy that his dry spell is over.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    SDS, “#4 is the thing I have hard time understanding. So we all know men are supposed to show interest and approach but then we’re supposed to play hard to get after we already show interest to basically play a meaningless game so someone can feel like they won the prize? Maybe I’m too far along on the autistic/omega/gamma/C.H.U.D./whatever spectrum to wrap my head around it all…..”

    I agree. I also don’t understand it. Both men and women are taught to play a cat and mouse game of hard to get. Women are taught to withhold sex until a certain number of dates have been had or a certain amount of time has passed just as men are taught to withhold emotional commitment. I guess this is so neither of us will be seen as easy and therefore undervalued?

  • Maven7

    As stated above – only 3rd point is valid IMHO.
    Being too eager to commit implies neediness. It’s just another hurdle, we have to learn to manage to make woman’s hamster happy.

    Anyway, my asian date fclosed. I proposed her exclusivity – if she’s smart she accepts. Otherwise, I continue building soft harem.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Women are taught to withhold sex until a certain number of dates have been had or a certain amount of time has passed just as men are taught to withhold emotional commitment.”

    This might be quibbling, but I really don’t think men are taught to withhold emotional commitment, I think it comes naturally, just as it comes naturally to women not to immediately have sex with every man who will let them. The sexes have different reproductive drives & goals, & different dangers to be instinctively wary of: for women the price of sex (for all human history pre-1960′s) was debilitating & possibly life-threatening pregnancy, so needed to be entered into carefully. For men, careless emotional commitment meant being trapped into a life he didn’t choose, providing for a woman who might not be right for him, & her offspring (who may not even be his) too. It’s all just nature, & trying to shame men into behaving more like women won’t make anybody happy in the long run.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      It’s all just nature, & trying to shame men into behaving more like women won’t make anybody happy in the long run.

      I don’t understand this comment. How does this post shame men?

  • Sassy6519

    Oh boy, the comments on this thread already……..(shaking my head).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Oh boy, the comments on this thread already……..(shaking my head).

      Yeah. “WomenAreGutlessCowards” is a problem. What is wrong with these people? This kind of commentary is worthless and a bit alarming. The internet is not your shrink, dude. Get a grip.

  • Sassy6519

    I think this was addressed in the other thread, but I will throw in my two cents anyway.

    I’m always a bit caught off guard whenever a guy wants to have the “DTR” conversation on the 2nd-4th date. Doing so just strikes me as way too soon. I still barely know the guy at that point, and I don’t think that such conversations should be forced upon me.

    I can understand a man liking me, and perhaps having somewhat of a hard time containing his excitement, but it’s still a bit unsettling.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “This might be quibbling, but I really don’t think men are taught to withhold emotional commitment, I think it comes naturally, just as it comes naturally to women not to immediately have sex with every man who will let them. The sexes have different reproductive drives & goals, & different dangers to be instinctively wary of: for women the price of sex (for all human history pre-1960′s) was debilitating & possibly life-threatening pregnancy, so needed to be entered into carefully. ”

    Right. But now we have condoms and other forms of birth control so the pregnancy scare is not anywhere near the amount of risk anymore and we women are still advised to withhold sex, even if we may really be sexually drawn to a man during the first, second or third date. Care to explain that?

  • taterearl

    1. Women understand the male role as the gatekeeper of commitment, just as we are the gatekeepers of sex.

    Really…if women understood that then they wouldn’t be riding the carousel.

    2. Some people are serial monogamists – the minute one relationship ends, they’re auditioning everyone in their sphere as a potential replacement.

    Projection…that is a woman thing. Sometimes they don’t even wait for the relationship to end before they do this.

    3. A hasty attempt to elicit commitment has a vibe of desperation about it.

    Just like giving it away on the first date reeks of desperation.

    4. Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.

    There’s the truth.

    5. There’s an expression women share: “How you get him is how you lose him.”

    If by getting him you sex him up early. If you get him by being feminine you’ll make it harder to lose him.

    6. Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men.

    And vice versa.

    7. We worry about buyer’s remorse.

    Then stop worrying because you are not the buyer…you are the product. If that product is shiny, attractive, has no previous owners, and is feminine…you’ll get the high SMV guys. If you’ve ruined your value then don’t be surprised when the only guy who can afford you is of poor SMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @taterearl

      Really…if women understood that then they wouldn’t be riding the carousel.

      Only 10-15% are.

      Projection…that is a woman thing. Sometimes they don’t even wait for the relationship to end before they do this.

      I have witnessed this first hand many times. There are guys who are known as serial monogamists – all the girls know who they are. They are never without a gf.

      Just like giving it away on the first date reeks of desperation.

      Agreed, and I drew that parallel in the post.

      If you get him by being feminine you’ll make it harder to lose him.

      If you get him cheating, you lose him cheating. If you get him b/c he is impulsive and not selective, you lose him the same way. It’s not about female seduction, it’s about male character.

      And vice versa.

      Sure, why not? If you want to delay sex to make sure a woman isn’t after you just for your body, that is your right.

      Then stop worrying because you are not the buyer…you are the product.

      Um, the comment was about buyer’s remorse. This response is not intelligent.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – “I’m always a bit caught off guard whenever a guy wants to have the “DTR” conversation on the 2nd-4th date. Doing so just strikes me as way too soon. I still barely know the guy at that point, and I don’t think that such conversations should be forced upon me.”

    Why is it too soon to agree to NOT see anyone else while you see if things can work out? I’m 100% sure I would not bother investing an ounce of energy on a woman that insists on keeping her “options” open. If we are going to date, we are going to date exclusively or not at all. Asking for exlcusivity doesn’t mean I love you or think I’m falling in love, it means I’m considering the idea of falling in love. I won’t even try to connect on more than a superficial level until exclusivity is agreed on. Most woman balk at this, and I think it can be a losing move for them. I’ve had enough takers in my lifetime to spend most of my adult life happily with a mate.

    Spinning plates is BS to me. I date 1 on 1 only, so we get exclusive early or never. Yep, I’m asking her to take a chance, but no less chance than I’m taking myself.

  • Ted D

    “4. Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.”

    This is so silly to me. “Win me over” with feminine wiles? Sure, those feminine wiles may get me attracted to you, but I promise they WILL NOT “win me over” at all. If I’m thinking LTR, it is your character, morality, and loyalty that I’m looking at, not how hot or feminine you are. The idea that a woman can “win” a man over with her magic vagina is so blue pill it’s funny.

    That being said, most guys are still plugged in, so that magic vagina may work wonders with them. Bad news is, most women won’t be too happy with what they catch that way long term.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    ‘Right. But now we have condoms and other forms of birth control so the pregnancy scare is not anywhere near the amount of risk anymore and we women are still advised to withhold sex, even if we may really be sexually drawn to a man during the first, second or third date. Care to explain that?’

    Yes. Evolution. Millions of years of evolution. The invention of the pill two generations ago doesn’t wipe out hardwired behavior overnight. Also, promiscuous behaviour in women is a huge red flag & turn-off to men relationship-wise (though not for short-term sex). Since women more often than not are seeking relationships rather than one-night stands, & since men simply ARE more naturally cautious to commit, as Susan has convincingly pointed out countless times, even for a woman with a purseful of condoms, it still makes for a better female dating strategy to see whether a man looks like he is going to stick around first.

    There’s other issues, too, such as the female disapproval of ‘easy’ women taking ‘their’ men & so on, but I think the above answer more pertinent.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Why is it too soon to agree to NOT see anyone else while you see if things can work out?”

    Personally I’m fine with that. What I’m not fine with is declarations of love and talk of moving in together, even getting married, during the initial period of dating and getting to know one another.

    In the first example I gave he did just that. Then when we broke up but he was still living in my apartment, he did the same thing with the next woman he met online and flew out to see. With the added caveat of, “I never loved her but I’m totally in love with you”. She emailed me and told me that she was thrown off kilter by this but she agreed to give the relationship a try when upon dropping him off at the airport for his return flight home (to my apartment) he literally cried when she told him that they should “just be friends for now”.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    The problem is as follows.

    Not too long ago, the men and women on here had a lengthy discussion about women supposedly entering into relationships that they knew had expiration dates, or that they were unsure about being in. The men clearly stated that they would rather be single or in FWB relationships than to be in bf/gf relationships that don’t have long-term potential. Do you remember that conversation?

    Now, how exactly is a woman supposed to rationally understand/judge whether or not a man is a long-term potential candidate if she is being pressured into exclusivity from the very beginning? I’m sorry, but the men can’t have it both ways. If my goal is to meet a man that I can see myself marrying and staying married to for the rest of my life (hopefully), there is no way in hell that I would be able to make that sort of judgement call 2-4 dates in. I don’t see the point in being pressured to “go all in” so early.

    I’m actually tackling this very monster right now. The guy I’ve been dating has already asked me to be his girlfriend. We haven’t even dated for a month yet. It’s still during the initial stages. I do like him very much, based off of the information I have gathered so far, but I don’t see a point in making things official yet. I don’t want to label the relationship now and find a major deal-breaker in the near future. What would my options be then? I could break up with him, but then I would be viewed as fickle by men for easily breaking a “bf/gf” relationship.

    I conceded a little by agreeing to not go on dates with anyone else, for the time being. I don’t want to make things official yet, and he seemed to be okay with those terms. I plan on continuing to go on dates with him, and I also plan on continuing to screen him for compatibility aspects. If things do go south, I imagine that the situation will go smoother this way. I would not be his girlfriend yet, and he wouldn’t have unnecessarily high hopes that are dashed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      don’t want to label the relationship now and find a major deal-breaker in the near future. What would my options be then? I could break up with him, but then I would be viewed as fickle by men for easily breaking a “bf/gf” relationship.

      One need only refer back to your previous relationship. Some very troubling and alarming things occurred only after you had agree to be his girlfriend! What is the rush?

  • Ted D

    Sassy – if we were on date 4 tonight, and I asked you to “go exclusive”, I certainly wouldn’t expect you to know if you wanted to marry me yet. What I’m asking for is your undivided consideration as your mate from that point on until we commit or decide it won’t work.

    I just don’t understand why so many of you seem to equate exclusive with pre-engagement type relationships. I simply don’t want you dating around with other guys while you are dating me, which by definition means exclusive. I don’t expect you to love me by date four, but until you decide you don’t I’d prefer I be the only guy in the current running.

    Yes that means “locked down” but not necessarily head over heels in love.

  • sestamibi

    Why so much verbage? 38 Special got it as far back as 1981?

  • Anne

    I very strongly agree with #5. It’s actually a problem – I dated a serial monogamist once, and now I am extremely wary.

    I don’t see how men find it “frustrating” if women don’t respond to full-on romance right away. Everybody’s romantic on the first dates. He can be sweet, affectionate, personal, intimate, serious and mature on a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th date. A man showing these attributes means nothing at all.
    If he offers commitment – the sooner he does, the sooner he can leave. A 1 month relationship is still easier to bail on than a 4 month one. I thought it was too good to be true when my ex wanted to meet my family 1 month in. And that’s exactly what it was.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    I think humans in general, not only women, tend to pay more attention to something/someone if it has a little uncertainty attached to it. (By analogy, the human visual system, and also that of most animals, tends to notice moving objects more than still backgrounds.) If you’re not quite sure about how interested someone is in you, you’ll be thinking “*(s)he loves me, (sh)he loves me not” in a way you won’t with someone you’re sure is in the bag.

    The effect exists for both sexes, but seems stronger for women. Here’s an interesting passage by Linda Niemann (which I might have quoted before)…

    “But women need to get to that acrophobic edge and suffer there for a while. Men don’t seem to understand this about sex. They rush into it, and sex is over before the woman has even noticed that they are there. It’s like the sun waking up a sleepy earth. It doesn’t just turn the lights on. It sneaks up on the earth, lights a subtle fire somewhere else, makes the earth turn over in her sleep and face him. He throws a few drops of red into the inky waters of he sky, and lightens the palette with orchestral resonance. He also makes it colder. The earth realizes she wants to warm up. Unknowingly she starts to desire the sun. She creates the sun in her mind and then there he is, her creation, child and lover, returning from the dream of her sleep. Who would resist such a lover?”

    Obviously, Niemann is talking here specifically about sex rather than about a relationship in general, but the same principle seems to apply.

    (The Niemann quote is–oddly enough–from her book about her experiences working as a railroad brakeman; I reviewed it here)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      I love that Niemann quote! I think it’s hardly surprising, when you think of what is really at stake when two people have sex, or should be. The woman should require considerable efforts on the part of the male for sex. The fact that this is usually no longer the case is the strange part.

  • OffTheCuff

    Double troll attack, PJ and Piper. Well, this new year was ok for a few minutes…

    Sassy: wow. Your dudes kinda are lame. Low betas in alpha clothes or something.

  • OffTheCuff

    Anne: “If he offers commitment – the sooner he does, the sooner he can leave.”

    Money quote!

    Withhold commitment. Have multiple prospects, or at the very least don’t deny that you don’t, until requested to stop.

    The women demand it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    wow. Your dudes kinda are lame. Low betas in alpha clothes or something.

    It can seem that way sometimes. The strange thing is that he seems like a typical “alpha” in many other regards. For some reason, however, the men I date are always really quick to try to initiate the bf/gf talk. I am a bit flattered by it, to be honest, but it’s also a bit overwhelming.

    I think the problem is that most men have a very hard time maintaining a strong frame around me, with regards to commitment.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I thought it was too good to be true when my ex wanted to meet my family 1 month in. And that’s exactly what it was.”

    Interesting use of terminology. I used the very same words when “it sounds too good to be true” when he first started outlining to me our future (before we had even physically met). He responded by saying “women always say things are too good to be true when they are true but can’t or don’t want to believe it, or they don’t want them to be true”.

    I knew something was up when I offered him the oppurtunity to have a long distance relationship with me as well as date other women in his locality and he refused, demanding exclusivity. What kind of person refuses such an offer of the best of both worlds?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Rebound Girlfriend

      I knew something was up when I offered him the oppurtunity to have a long distance relationship with me as well as date other women in his locality and he refused, demanding exclusivity. What kind of person refuses such an offer of the best of both worlds?

      Why would you even offer that? What was your long-term goal?

  • OffTheCuff

    Sassy: “Not too long ago, the men and women on here had a lengthy discussion about women supposedly entering into relationships that they knew had expiration dates, or that they were unsure about being in. The men clearly stated that they would rather be single or in FWB relationships than to be in bf/gf relationships that don’t have long-term potential.”

    The differenc is subtle but very important.

    Of course you are not psychic, and might be undecided, that’s fine.

    What we were objecting to you is the case where you happen KNOW it doesn’t have long-term potential and just want a temporary boyfriend.

    Sassy: “,how exactly is a woman supposed to rationally understand/judge whether or not a man is a long-term potential candidate if she is being pressured into exclusivity from the very beginning?”

    See above. Not knowing is fine. Knowing that there’s some sort of trivial end condition like “until I’m bored” or “until I graduate”, the you should just call a spade a spade and be FWB. Monogamy has opportunity costs to a man, like sex has to a woman.

  • Mike C

    I think the problem is that most men have a very hard time maintaining a strong frame around me, with regards to commitment.

    This could be the case. Judging from the totality of your comments, I assume the following 3 items are true:

    1. You are very physically attractive
    2. You exude a powerful sexual presence and sensuality
    3. You are a bit walled off emotionally

    Even the typical alpha might have problems maintaining a strong frame and get a bit “weak-kneed” around you. I think one thing few women understand is that most men are 1000x more intimidated by a very beautiful, sexually powerful woman than one trying to ape male behaviors with pseudo-aggression, and aggressive verbal snark and sarcasm

  • Mike C

    4. Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.

    Translation to direct guy-enese language:

    Internalize that you the guy are THE PRIZE. Make the girl chase you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Internalize that you the guy are THE PRIZE. Make the girl chase you.

      Yup. “Chase” is probably too strong a word, but you definitely want the female to come to you. And that will not happen if you are smothering her with attention.

  • INTJ

    Wonder what SayWhaat has to say about this:

    To 80% accuracy women are like cats. Cats are not like dogs. Cats do not want to mate with dogs. So, you need to show a little more catlike behavior at first to get that pussy (-cat) interested in you. Remember how cats come up and sit on the lap of the person who ignores it and only once it’s decided it wants you does it want to be petted and start receiving the more “doglike” affection.

    Not all women are more catlike but to men who tend to go overboard with too much affection too soon (that act too much like affectionate dogs that run up to their master when she gets home and bury her with attention), keeping that exaggerated metaphor in mind will help them to treat them in a less smothering and more balanced way.

  • Mike C

    I don’t see how men find it “frustrating” if women don’t respond to full-on romance right away.

    Anne, this is because most men are raised and operate from a perspective of “romantic idealism”. That is the defacto position for a blue-pill guy.

  • Mike C

    Sestamibi,

    Good tune. An old geezer like myself remembers hearing that one on that old FM radio thingy. :)

    BTW, saw This is 40 last night with the fiancee for a low-key New Years. Very funny movie, and one of those movies that is fascinating to watch and analyze from an unplugged perspective. The Mom and Wife is about to turn 40 and desperate to maintain that she is 38. The husband and father is turning 40 as well. Megan Fox is the hottie working for her.

    In one scene, at the birthday party, the husband and his friend are staring at Megan Fox’s character while the two wives look at them and state “They look like a couple of pedophiles”. It is meant jokingly no doubt, but it is an example of where male “base/feral” nature is put on full display in popular media with a pejorative comment. There is actually a comparable scene with the wife going out for a “girls night” but the context is different. Very subtle stuff that 99.99% of the population wouldn’t catch. Interestingly, you see some Game references as the physical trainer character actually “negs” Megan Fox’s character saying she is very beautiful but only a 6 that he could make a 9.

    Very funny movie with plenty of fodder for any student of intergender dynamics.

  • http://www.therulesrevisited.com Andrew

    Wow… I’d never really thought about point #1 before but it makes so much sense. I can already feel that idea taking root in my mind.

    Great post.

  • Mike C

    I’m actually tackling this very monster right now. The guy I’ve been dating has already asked me to be his girlfriend. We haven’t even dated for a month yet. It’s still during the initial stages. I do like him very much, based off of the information I have gathered so far, but I don’t see a point in making things official yet. I don’t want to label the relationship now and find a major deal-breaker in the near future. What would my options be then? I could break up with him, but then I would be viewed as fickle by men for easily breaking a “bf/gf” relationship.

    I conceded a little by agreeing to not go on dates with anyone else, for the time being. I don’t want to make things official yet, and he seemed to be okay with those terms. I plan on continuing to go on dates with him, and I also plan on continuing to screen him for compatibility aspects. If things do go south, I imagine that the situation will go smoother this way. I would not be his girlfriend yet, and he wouldn’t have unnecessarily high hopes that are dashed.

    Sassy,

    I think you are taking the right approach here. As I alluded to above, I think your challenge might be in dealing with guys who may always be in front of where you are at in terms of emotional escalation because of your characteristics and personality, and not allowing that to make you sour on them/lose attraction too early.

  • Mike C

    Wow… I’d never really thought about point #1 before but it makes so much sense. I can already feel that idea taking root in my mind.

    Great post.

    I think this a good post as well because for the guys paying attention it gives great insight into the female mind and psychological process. Whether you agree or disagree is beside the point. It is what it is.

    On the flip side, women have to realize the “fried ice” part of this as well. Very often, “eager” men are the guys who are also bringing to the table the panoply of beta/comfort traits that Susan advocates women select for. The “eagerness” is often inextricably linked with those other traits. Part of this means women need to cut those guys some slack otherwise they will end up selecting the guys who have mastered the PLI.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Very often, “eager” men are the guys who are also bringing to the table the panoply of beta/comfort traits that Susan advocates women select for. The “eagerness” is often inextricably linked with those other traits.

      I have never advocated selecting purely for comfort traits. I believe the best male partners display a balance of alpha and beta traits. Once you’ve crossed the line into supplication and “eager beaver” behavior, you’ve gone way too heavy on the comfort traits and lost all sense of dominance. This does not work, as there is a baseline level of dominance that most women will require.

      There is no one magic formula. The ideal mix of traits will vary a great deal among individuals.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I think one thing few women understand is that most men are 1000x more intimidated by a very beautiful, sexually powerful woman than one trying to ape male behaviors with pseudo-aggression, and aggressive verbal snark and sarcasm.”

    Most women understand that. But neither type is trying to purposely intimidate men.

    Another commenter wrote, “As a general rule, the readiness with which an idea is accepted is directly proportional to the attractiveness of its speaker.”

    Average looking people are both impressed and intimidated by physical attractiveness.

  • OffTheCuff

    Since there is no legal commitment, what does “commitment” mean? Is it merely an offer of not entertaining other dating prospects? Total monogamy? Sexually monogamous, but free to kiss others? Declaration of the L word? Something else?

    What does bf/gf mean? Introducing your lover to your social circle? Facebook? Close friends in person? Family?

    A lot of old fashioned people have this obsolete script in their heads, perhaps a holdover from childish expectations: meet a person, go on date with a single prospect, some physical intimacy, bf/gf status, more intimacy, then sex. To further compound the antiquity of it, they actually would never consider going on dates with more than one person concurrently – you rule out one person and say goodbye, before going on a date with another. Clearly a bad idea…

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    ” To further compound the antiquity of it, they actually would never consider going on dates with more than one person concurrently – you rule out one person and say goodbye, before going on a date with another.”

    I think that’s a recent thing actually. From all my talks with old people who were dating in the 1940s, 50s or 60s, they dated people concurrently until they really started liking one of them and then asked them to go what they called “steady”.

    “Why would you even offer that? What was your long-term goal?”

    We were long distance. The relationship consisted of emails and long telephone calls at the time I offered that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that’s a recent thing actually. From all my talks with old people who were dating in the 1940s, 50s or 60s, they dated people concurrently until they really started liking one of them and then asked them to go what they called “steady”.

      I can confirm that this was the norm until 1980 at least. After that, I went off the market, but until then we dated a variety of people without guilt until we agreed to be exclusive. And FTR, dating a variety of people might well include making out with two different guys on a weekend.

  • Mike C

    I believe the best male partners display a balance of alpha and beta traits. Once you’ve crossed the line into supplication and “eager beaver” behavior, you’ve gone way too heavy on the comfort traits and lost all sense of dominance. This does not work, as there is a baseline level of dominance that most women will require.

    There is no one magic formula. The ideal mix of traits will vary a great deal among individuals.

    No disagreement from me. I’m not sure you grok the difficulty of getting the calibration right and getting enough balance to walk that tightrope correctly without falling into the pit below. That comes with experience and practice.

  • Unending Improvement (@UnendImprov)

    @Susan 44

    He’s a Manospambot.

    Lot’s of them running around, that one was probably pointed here by someone else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He’s a Manospambot.

      Lot’s of them running around, that one was probably pointed here by someone else.

      I get a lot of those :(

      It’s odd – often these guys spend a great deal of time typing and articulating their thoughts, only to be put into mod or spammed. Why bother? It must be cathartic in some way but I am not here to nurse the men upchucking the red pill.

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    As I read through this, I found myself marvelling at it’s clarity, reasonableness and sensitivity…until I scrolled through in my mind the 50 or so women with whom I’m in close regular contact and considered whether or not her behaviour corresponded to this sort of thinking. The women I know cover the full range of looks, intelligence, sexiness, achievement, manners, joie de vivre, family background, race and religion. Guess what I came up with? Only one. That’s right, one woman only who seemed to behave like this. Interestingly, she is the most teflon-coated woman of the lot. Untouchable. She’s attractive, intelligent, temperate, accomplished, well-respected…and single and childless at 40.

    This leads me to the conclusion that while Susan’s list is interesting from a sociological point of view, it doesn’t describe the behaviour of any but the most idealistically self-focused woman and is useless as the basis for relationship advice. There appears to be no room for idiosyncratic behaviour and its network of interwoven actionary-reactionary consequences, which is what relationship seems to be all about. Relationship is not about finding a partner that fits and then living a static life. It’s about finding someone who can tolerate our shit and can respond well to the changing dynamics of life and relationships.

    So, while this list seems well-crafted, sensitive and insightful, it is at its core inhumane. It’s actually a very good example of how the intelligentsia (using academia, science and statistics) create impossible-to-meet and often brutal expectations in human relationships. It’s a common phenomenon amongst those who form models of human behaviour chiefly around scientific papers, statistics and the lowing herd.

    So it goes with much of what Susan writes here. Most of it is intelligent and well-considered, with many little tidbits that make perfect sense to most people. But it is typically an idealised, sterilised version of humanity that tends towards the static. It fails as advice because when we adopt idealised notions of humanity idiosyncratic behaviour tends to fall away from our perceptions, and with it the personalities and individuality that drives our interactions with others in the real world. While we’re attracted to perfections, we tend to love people because of their imperfections.

    Readers of Susan’s list should also consider built-in redundancy. When anti-idiosyncratic models of human behaviour are used as the basis for advice to nameless, countless others, widespread failure in practice is guaranteed (for much the same reason anti-biotics and predictive stock market algorithms tend to fail). Not immediately, but inevitably. There are no normal people in practice. No, not even Susan.

    Grace, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, compassion are better principles to follow when seeking a partner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacob

      As I read through this, I found myself marvelling at it’s clarity, reasonableness and sensitivity…until I scrolled through in my mind the 50 or so women with whom I’m in close regular contact and considered whether or not her behaviour corresponded to this sort of thinking.

      You are in close regular contact with 50 single women? How would you describe their behavior in variance to this post?

      Relationship is not about finding a partner that fits and then living a static life. It’s about finding someone who can tolerate our shit and can respond well to the changing dynamics of life and relationships.

      I find this a very sad and unfortunate description of what relationships are about. IMO, the greatest human desire is to be known. It is the desire for real connection, which implies being accepted once we are known. Perhaps even loved.

      Seeking someone to “tolerate our shit” is a very one-sided and narcissistic approach to relating to others. I don’t know what you mean by “responding well” to changing dynamics, but I fear you mean that you seek women willing to tolerate various forms of emotional abuse.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Jacob, yours is the best and most insightful comment regarding online relationship pontification that I have ever read.

    “So, while this list seems well-crafted, sensitive and insightful, it is at its core inhumane. It’s actually a very good example of how the intelligentsia (using academia, science and statistics) create impossible-to-meet and often brutal expectations in human relationships. It’s a common phenomenon amongst those who form models of human behaviour chiefly around scientific papers, statistics and the lowing herd.”

    This. So true.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I find this a very sad and unfortunate description of what relationships are about. IMO, the greatest human desire is to be known. It is the desire for real connection, which implies being accepted once we are known. Perhaps even loved.

    Seeking someone to “tolerate our shit” is a very one-sided and narcissistic approach to relating to others. I don’t know what you mean by “responding well” to changing dynamics, but I fear you mean that you seek women willing to tolerate various forms of emotional abuse.”

    I didn’t get this from Jacob’s post at all. I thought he articulated well that humans are complex and hence relationships also have their complexity.
    For example, a man escalating emotional exclusivity early on might appear needy and suspicious, and he very well might be, but he might not be as well. Similarly a woman escalating sexually early on might be promiscuous and untrustworthy but she might not be as well. We can’t know until we know and that means being able to consider possibilities beyond stereotypes.

  • Mike C

    Seeking someone to “tolerate our shit” is a very one-sided and narcissistic approach to relating to others. I don’t know what you mean by “responding well” to changing dynamics, but I fear you mean that you seek women willing to tolerate various forms of emotional abuse.”

    I didn’t get this from Jacob’s post at all. I thought he articulated well that humans are complex and hence relationships also have their complexity.

    Susan can ascertain his true intent and thoughts. This is an ability that NFs have (Myers-Brigg)

  • J

    I think the simplest reason that women distrust immediate declarations of love is that they are coming from people who don’t really know them. Real love takes knowledge of a person’s strengths and faults. I really wanted to know that DH had noticed, understood and accepted all my BS before I could accept “I love you,” and I think he wanted the same. You can be infatuated early on, but real love takes time. Someone who doesn’t realize that is immature at best.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “You can be infatuated early on, but real love takes time.”

    This. But its not the same with sexual attraction so I don’t understand why withholding sex til a certain date number or amount of time spent together, even when you really want to have it, is still advised in this age of effective birth control.

  • Mike C

    This. But its not the same with sexual attraction so I don’t understand why withholding sex til a certain date number or amount of time spent together, even when you really want to have it, is still advised in this age of effective birth control.

    Rebound Girl,

    I suspect you are very new to these discussions, and how are evolutionary biological wiring plays into our sexuality. From one perspective on a purely rational level you are correct to question why this is the case.

    “Easy” women trigger a visceral instinct in men not to commit to a long-term relationship. That isn’t to say that instinct can’t be overridden in some cases. What is triggered in men is the fear of cheating/cuckolding down the road. The “easier” a woman is sexually, the more the instinct is triggered that she may cheat with another man at some point. Whether this is logical or rational is immaterial….it is what hundreds of thousands of years programmed into men. Women have their own set of biological programming which isn’t logical or rational in today’s modern society but it is what it is.

    Generally speaking, many men sort women into two ladders, the long-term relationship ladder or short-term sex ladder. If you are a relationship oriented woman you don’t want to get kicked onto the short-term sex ladder. Women have their own ladder, the “Let’s Just be Friends” ladder, and the “I am attracted to you” Ladder.

    There is a lot more complexity to it than what I just outlined, and these subjects have been discussed here extensively. You may want to check out the archives for relevant posts and discussion.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Thank you for taking the time to explain that. “From one perspective on a purely rational level you are correct to question why this is the case.” I am frequently frustrated with the lack of logic around me which makes me sort of a loner. I have a low tolerance for inauthenticity which makes cat and mouse games and playing hard to get a major deal breaker from my side and I also don’t want to be burdened with having to play games myself.

  • Unending Improvement (@UnendImprov)

    @ Susan 56: “It must be cathartic in some way but I am not here to nurse the men upchucking the red pill.”

    There is a lot of societal bullshit fed to men that needs cut through, but the problem with the “Manosphere” is their conclusions oftentimes simply do not reflect the truth about sex or relationships.

    For their professed belief in Evo Psych, there isn’t really much they actually derive from it.

    “Red Pill Wisdom” as it is often called, relies on caricatures of Evo Psych as ridiculous as any strawman used by Marcotte or Watson.

  • Mike C

    I am frequently frustrated with the lack of logic around me which makes me sort of a loner. I have a low tolerance for inauthenticity which makes cat and mouse games and playing hard to get a major deal breaker from my side and I also don’t want to be burdened with having to play games myself.

    RG,

    I’d bet good money you are either a INTJ or ISTJ. If you are an INTJ, that makes you a rarity amongst women. My fiancee is an INTJ and has a low threshold for game playing. When I met her, I realized I didn’t need to “run much Game”. There are guys out there who will appreciate your personality traits but you probably will have to screen hard for people who like drama and game playing to get them out of the picture quickly.

  • Maven7

    “I have never advocated selecting purely for comfort traits. I believe the best male partners display a balance of alpha and beta traits. Once you’ve crossed the line into supplication and “eager beaver” behavior, you’ve gone way too heavy on the comfort traits and lost all sense of dominance. This does not work, as there is a baseline level of dominance that most women will require.”

    So now we also have not only learn how to game chicks into bed, but also how to commit to them in a way that hamster is happy…

    Girls, I have a question: assuming that average guy has no game at all, how would you expect him to go trough all this hurdles?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maven7

      Girls, I have a question: assuming that average guy has no game at all, how would you expect him to go trough all this hurdles?

      The answer is Inner Game. Work on yourself without the goal of trying to game chicks into bed. When you feel good about where you are in your life, the self-confidence that is required for mating will be real rather than cocky bluster. Inner Game is a lot more work, but you can’t get more than casual without it, so if you want an LTR Game alone is not going to cut it.

  • VJ

    I’m sorry but “From all my talks with old people who were dating in the 1940s, 50s or 60s”…

    1.) The guys recalled their cars far more fondly than any of the women they dated. With better and more accurate descriptions too.

    2.) For the women it was often what they wore, or what the films were playing at the time.

    Back to the essential question, ‘Why women reject eager men’, some more thoughts:

    1.) He does not know me, and thus can not be serious. (This may be the most naive yet honest response).

    2.) Despite everything you’ve heard, there are just some dudes who are consistently more romantic than women typically give them credit for. This is especially true for married dudes, BTW.

    3.) Bad prior experiences with some grifters. (‘Nuff said).

    4.) Bad experiences with the ‘incurable romantic types’ who can and might be ready to commit to ‘anyone & everyone’. This can happen, but it’s not as common as frequently imagined.

    5.) Most educated women today do not want any sort of ‘early commitment’, even from truly worthy candidates. Even a highly educated, tall, handsome & studly, kind & decent, well employed heir of a large fortune would be ‘blown off’ most of the time by any sort of desirable middling lass who’s determined to get her degrees/MBA by 30 etc. I’ve seen it happen to friends. Conversely, when they’re ‘finally ready for commitment’ many women will all but ignore most of the viable candidates found all around them for pursuit of the small slice of worthies making up the upper 10-20% of all possible ‘matches’. (Here it’s actually the upper 5% much of the time). That’s the ‘alpha’ fantasy, that all such women will automatically enjoy a highly satisfying hypergamous match of their choosing, exactly when & where they desire it. It’s a delicious but highly delusional fantasy that not even Grimm’s Fairytales would choreograph well or completely.

    6.) Because they’re seemingly wholly unaware of real social trends. Fewer males of similar ages now express desires to be married ‘soon’, while the proportion of women saying this is on the increase recently. Why? Various complicated and ongoing economic factors play a huge role here. If you have a reasonably ‘viable’ prospect who after a month or so seems still ‘eager’? Well you might ask all the usual questions (inexperienced? recently dumped? Divorced? Widowed? deluded? insane?), and/or you can chase away your relative good fortune too.

    7.) Still for many women, the 20′s are their ‘play time’. Time to ‘explore their sexuality’ in various serial relationships of ‘no mean importance’, but were ‘highly entertaining’ just the same. Chasing the studs/alphas/big dicks until tired, worn out, or begetting just enough kids to slow you down somewhat. They’ll only be open to and looking for ‘commitment’ after this period of ‘experimentation’ and yes even ‘trial marriages’ that they’ll deny have any sort of bearing on the willingness of others to commit to them.

    8.) So call it a mismatch of time, effort, heart, devotion, and attention to others and potential future families. You don’t get a bottoming out of both fertility and marriage rates to the lowest levels seen in 80 years by saying ‘Yes’, or being exactly open to too many possibilities beyond self gratification or self involvement. Why listen to such entreaties? They’re by in large not interested.

    Just some more thoughts. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ

      Even a highly educated, tall, handsome & studly, kind & decent, well employed heir of a large fortune would be ‘blown off’ most of the time by any sort of desirable middling lass who’s determined to get her degrees/MBA by 30 etc.

      That might be a good definition of insanity.

      Conversely, when they’re ‘finally ready for commitment’ many women will all but ignore most of the viable candidates found all around them for pursuit of the small slice of worthies making up the upper 10-20% of all possible ‘matches’.

      Obviously, women who employ this strategy will be unlikely to marry at all. To the extent their numbers swell and the spinster class grows, they will continue to provide a cautionary tale.

      You don’t get a bottoming out of both fertility and marriage rates to the lowest levels seen in 80 years by saying ‘Yes’, or being exactly open to too many possibilities beyond self gratification or self involvement.

      True enough, but this is hardly a strictly female problem. Our culture of narcissism, consumerism and entitlement sweeps up the men as well.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “I don’t understand this comment. How does this post shame men?”

    Susan, my comment was addressed to Rebound Girl’s ‘put on your big boy pants’ & ‘Some people are just afraid of being alone I guess’ comments, but according to OTC, Rebound Girlfriend is Plain Jane, so I guess it was for nothing anyway. I must be out of practice with the troll- spotting.

    However, even I can see ‘Unending Improv’ fits the PJ Pyjamas.

  • Deli

    //Readers of Susan’s list should also consider built-in redundancy. When anti-idiosyncratic models of human behaviour are used as the basis for advice to nameless, countless others, widespread failure in practice is guaranteed (for much the same reason anti-biotics and predictive stock market algorithms tend to fail). Not immediately, but inevitably. There are no normal people in practice. No, not even Susan.

    In the words of Tim Minchin in his “If I didn’t have you (I would have somebody else)” song:

    “I am just saying
    I don’t think you’re special.
    I mean, of course you are special,
    But you fall within the bell curve.”

    Sure, the cookie-cutter advice based on a train-of-thought analysis of a singular researcher (Susan) is doomed to be rough. It’s simply poor science (Not saying that you can find any good science on the web on this topic. Good science would be a fully funded research institute with double blind testing and etc.)
    But I take poor science over good faith any time of the day.

    People should accept, that they may be the outliers, that they may be on the tails of the bell curve. And thus some theory will not work for them. Or that some “science” given to them regarding their relationships will be poor science, flawed by design.
    But the only thing it should spur, is the willingness to contribute and to report, pushing to crunch this problem through massive statistical analysis.

    The fact that antibiotics become ineffective when applying them to the same bacteria over time does not in ANY WAY undermine the indisputable value of antibiotics being developed in the first place.

    Human behavior and human interaction is more complex than finding a way to kill a bacteria and it’s a much more of a self-adjusting system than any field of study we faced before,
    but it is not sacred,
    it is not unknowable,
    it is simply another problem under humanity’s microscope.

    And anyone willing to make an educated stab at this problem has my gratitude and support.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan.

    Great post.

    But is something else going on ?

    There must be :

    “I had given up all hope and was not even looking when I saw her profile on Myspace,” writes Mario Passi of Newton. “Too shy to send an actual message, I simply sent her a friend request. She replies with: ‘Hello, Mario. I accept your friend request. :-) So I was checking out your personal profile, which led me to your music profile, and can I just say? I love the rocker pants!’ And the rest is history!”

    And there seems to be humor too :

    “Back in 2005, I was doing the online dating thing. But this is no average online dating story,” writes Karen Schwartz Alpert. “One morning, I received an email from a guy named Dan in Chicago. Chicago? Apparently, he thought I was the perfect match for his friend Greg in Boston. I can’t remember whether I was feeling really optimistic or really desperate that morning, but I agreed to email Greg. We exchanged a few emails, met and really hit it off. Well, I thought it was amazing that his friend was able to pick me out of thousands of women. Ends up it wasn’t that amazing. Dan had actually emailed over 20 women for Greg on the dating site! Hilarious. To all of the women out there who didn’t respond to Dan and take a chance on Greg, thank you. He is the love of my life… my husband… and soon-to-be the father of my first child.”

    And where is the How To’s in this :

    Molly Hughes of Somerville wasn’t used to dating nice guys and had to do some work to get Rob Caravella’s attention. At what she deemed the “most romantic place in Boston,” Faneuil Hall’s Hong Kong restaurant, she took authority: grabbing his rear and ordering him to dance. After a shaky first month, in which she played hard to get, they went on a real date and have now been dating for a year and a half.

    And then one should just thank heaven :

    A series of events pulled Kathryn from Greece, through Jamaica Plain, and eventually into Brian’s arms. From hearing a voice telling her to leave Greece and “go find Brian,” she was also led to a new career at Angell-Memorial, where Brian worked, by a lost kitten. They have now been married over three years and together over six. “Moral of the story?” Kathryn Camgemi says, “If you’re open to the idea of angelic guidance, they will gladly help. Thanks to a nudge from above and a mysterious black kitty, I found my true love.”

    And then one must have confidence :

    Rob must be one smooth guy. To be in politics, you have to be, right? While campaigning for campus-wide office at UMass-Amherst, he asked a girl out for dinner. At dinner, he got another vote. “At the end of the meal, I left my novelty business card (‘Rob Moore: Good Guy to Know’) with the check for our waitress. Apparently, I did something to impress the waitress; she emailed me the next day,” said Rob, of Duxbury. “Things never went anywhere with the girl with whom I was on the date, but five years later, I married the waitress!”

    And sometimes one can be creep :

    Jenn and Chris glanced at each other for the first time in a Barnes and Noble café line. Chris proceeded to spend the next three hours following Jenn through the store, but not saying a word. After feeling disappointed that he didn’t try to engage in conversation, Jenn went home for the night. After recapping the evening to her friend, Jen’s friend suggested that she go back the same day the following week to see if the same guy was there. Jenn did, and Chris was there. When he finally mustered up the confidence to talk to Jenn, he admitted that he returned to the bookstore every night after their initial encounter, hoping that Jenn would be there.

    Five months later, the couple were married and are now awaiting the birth of their second child.

    Ultimately Suzan, it does seem that for everybody a Bashert exists.

    It’s just that sometimes you can only see her, and never meet her.

    You speak with confusion, no matter what you say now really has no solid meaning. Like I said you are letting the laws of the past, override the morals of your future. There are going to be alot of emotions you are going to keep swaying back and forth from. Your emotions that sway side to side above your heart and under your head. Though at times your emotions can feel as a pendulum finding a closer attachment to the burdens of your heart. For you being emotionally happy will be the balance in your life to live in happiness. You will find all the right words to say, when you find yourself. Could you define what desires you have of the heart, and that of the mind without confusing the two to be related to emotions? Do you know the difference between an emotion and an experience? People tend to journey out into the world looking for themselves endlessly, when all they needed to do was define who they are. We can talk emotions and feelings once you have control over them, but for now dont get caught up speaking in something that controls you.

    … and how I wish I could meet this girl.

    Oh well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      Ha, I’m glad you enjoyed those stories from my hometown newspaper! Let’s hear it for Random Encounters. The fourth most common way people meet their spouses. I note that there are some serious beta moves in there. Not a cocky move in the whole bunch.

      Megaman described it pretty accurately, I think. Many couples meet, start dating, and it works. There’s no handwringing about the DTR, what does it mean, am I willing to be monogamous, etc. There’s a lot of overthinking that goes on, but the winners are the ones who never even contemplate trying to grab the upper hand.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Mike C #64, yes that is accurate to an extent, but I’d say for a relationship-oriented woman, all men basically start out on the not-relationship ladder, and she is wary of the man who tries to jump too early to the relationship ladder before she has gained sufficient information to place him there herself. Sassy mentioned something similar in #22.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    J #62, yes that’s it exactly. Love takes getting to know a person very well, and encompasses an intellectual, spiritual and emotional connection. It’s not as simple as (insert date number here).

    Ted D #23, sorry but that’s not “boyfriend+girlfriend,” nor a relationship. That’s merely saying “I’m going to focus all my attention on you while we get to know each other better,” i.e. not dating around. My husband and I did that on the first week of talking. Not the same as real “commitment” at all. That takes love.

  • Abbot

    “promiscuous behaviour in women is a huge red flag & turn-off to men relationship-wise”

    A much larger red flag to men than the red flag women see when a man comes on too fast romantically

  • Ted D

    Hope – “sorry but that’s not “boyfriend+girlfriend,” nor a relationship. ”

    LOL well I pretty much call anyone I’m dating and not engaged/married to a “girlfriend”, so maybe we are arguing semantics.

    My only complaint here is people assuming that a request for exclusivity somehow equals an expression of love and devotion. To me they do not, and a guy asking to “get exclusive” at date 3 or 4 to me is NOT somehow emoting unending love and devotion, unless he specifically says “I love you and am devoted to you forever!” or something similar.

    But as OTC pointed out, I’m “old school” where spinning plates is an immoral concept, at least if those spinning plates include anything physical…

  • Tomato

    My reasons for being wary of men who were too eager were 1) they barely knew me and yet they proclaimed a deep emotional connection and 2) since they did 1) with me, it’s likely they did it with others. The men wanted a relationship instead of wanting a relationship WITH ME, an important distinction.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tomato

      The men wanted a relationship instead of wanting a relationship WITH ME, an important distinction.

      This comes up again and again. No one wants to be a commodity, the player of some part. I would advise men to be wary of women who do this as well – I’ve seen women go through a series of boyfriends culled from their “guy friend” group. It’s a way to get one’s heart broken.

  • Erik L

    So these men are commitment sluts? Maybe society needs some commitment slut shaming. The whole thing rings true for me. I think a lot of the objections are for the standard reason: Things would be so much simpler if people didn’t behave this way so why do they? The answer is, they just do, so you can either deal with people as you wish they were, and likely fail, or deal with them the way they are and, well, still probably fail but perhaps less often.

  • chris

    “HanSolo doesn’t like it that women do not appreciate eager, unconditional affection from the start, and he doesn’t quite understand why this should be so, but he does accept it:

    I have developed a more catlike nature. The dog in me is always longing to get out with the right woman though and cover her with affection.

    I have so much love waiting for the right woman.

    I feel like I have built a dam to hold it back but the rains keep falling and the reservoir is always brimming to the top.

    I want to find the woman who wants my love. That thirsts for it. Whose heart is a desert. Who will open the spillways and let me love her fully. Who will love me back. Completely, fully, with abandon.

    Until then, I fuck the occasional pussy and wait.

    Women fantasize about finding that kind of love with a man, as the Romance Literature industry attests. However, it should be noted that in female fantasy, this level of commitment and devotion from a man is hard won, not a thing to be given away lightly. Women understand this instinctively – we can be extremely interested in a guy, pinching ourselves over our good fortune in attracting this gorgeous man, only to find him unappealing and yes, creepy, within a date or two. His eagerness to be immediately and deeply in love sounds alarm bells. ”

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/comment-of-the-week-precision-analogies-edition/

    Also with respect to Number 7 We worry about buyer’s remorse.

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/07/what-you-should-look-for-in-a-marriage-partne-31938/

    “This study examined the long-term consequences of idealization in marriage, using both daily diary and questionnaire data collected from a sample of 168 newlywed couples who participated in a 4-wave, 13-year longitudinal study of marriage. Idealization was operationalized as the tendency for people to perceive their partner as more agreeable than would be expected based on their reports of their partner’s agreeable and disagreeable behaviors. Spouses who idealized one another were more in love with each other as newlyweds. Longitudinal analyses suggested that spouses were less likely to suffer declines in love when they idealized one another as newlyweds. Newlywed levels of idealization did not predict divorce.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      Are you the chris who left that comment at Heartiste? It’s so good I’m going to include it here in full:

      “Perhaps one way to conceptualise why women don’t like emotional/sensitive guys would be to consider this.

      Men value women for their sexual intimacy, while women value men for the emotional intimacy.

      Now men don’t want a relationship with a woman who is promiscuous with her sexual intimacy as it either indicates she has low value, or potential for cuckoldry.

      Perhaps women don’t want relationships with emotional/sensitive guys as these men are promiscuous with their emotional intimacy. And their emotional promiscuity indicates they are either low value or have a potential for abandonment.

      So a niceguy is to women, what a slut is to a man.

      Now, when you here feminist therapists telling men they they should be more sensitive and get in touch with their feminine side and what not, those therapists are no different from some old sleazy lecher trying to convince women that it’s in their best interest to sleep around and experiment with their sexuality in the hopes that the woman will sleep with them.

      Basically, telling men to be more sensitive is a ploy to make it easier for women to use men, just as telling women to be more sexually open would be a ploy to make it easier for men to use women.”

  • Ted D

    “This comes up again and again. No one wants to be a commodity, the player of some part. ”

    And yet here we talk about sex for commitment “deals” like we are negotiating a contract. We see men AND women told to behave in certain ways to be a ‘better product’, and all this while Jezebel and the ‘sphere keep telling men and woman how to act to “be more attractive” instead of how to be themselves and proud of it.

    Sorry to say it, but I personally don’t feel like there is much to “love and romance” in modern society that isn’t somehow consumerist and based on commodity. Sex is a commodity. Commitment is a commodity. And it seems that most people are more interested in getting a better deal than an ideal husband/wife.

  • chris
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      Also, great links on idealization in marriage. I found this interesting:

      “The protective effects of unrealistic idealization emerged despite the fact that individuals who were initially the happiest generally had further to fall. That is, people who were more satisfied initially experienced steeper declines in satisfaction. Also, further analyses revealed that people who initially idealized their partner more also experienced steeper declines in the perception that their partner met their ideals. Despite these evident risks of disappointment, initial idealization predicted sustained satisfaction over the course of marriage.”

      The question is, how can we sustain that idealization?

  • Abbot

    “No one wants to be a commodity, the player of some part.”

    No man wants his chosen woman to have been a commodity, someone who willfully fell onto players

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: cad behavior to mimic “sweep her off her feet” theatrics. I can attest to a less deceptive version of this. Fisherian Explorers (and sociopaths, unfortunately) may have intense “orienting reflex” behaviors that heavily concentrate attentional resources on the new person or object.

    I’ll feel a strong rush to learn more about an attractive or interesting person and will usually eventually attempt some kind of social maneuvering so that I can isolate her for more detailed, 1 on 1 questioning. I find myself really wanting to know how this person thinks, her goals and preference sets, etc. and to increasingly see other people at the event as distractions or clutter in a radar field. This isn’t contrived—I’d describe it as a triggered, hunting type behavior that combines lust and curiosity and artistic interest. The interpersonal style and techniques involved may be fairly elegant, but the underlying emotions do feel primal.

    I never try to gain DTR exclusivity or profess emotional commitment this early, but if there is a potentially deeper connection—physical, intellectual, whatever—I may well escalate rapidly with a date suggestion that would appear to be more grandiose than warranted by the brief time that we have known each other. The high probability of sex being involved is usually implicit in my recommendation. Sometimes I may have to make a disclaimer about how the offered weekend on a boat or whatever would be “just Platonic, of course”, but it’s quite absurd and I feel like I’m just checking some mandatory box.

    Negative part: the highly focused interest does tend to burn out very quickly if left to its own devices.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I may well escalate rapidly with a date suggestion that would appear to be more grandiose than warranted by the brief time that we have known each other.

      If anyone can get away with this, it’s the male with sky high SMV.

  • Abbot

    “a niceguy is to women, what a slut is to a man”

    Is that what Marcotte was getting at here?:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/09/30/hookinguprealities/marcottes-boxers-are-in-a-twist-over-nice-guys/

    .

  • Ted D

    Susan – From quoted text: “Perhaps women don’t want relationships with emotional/sensitive guys as these men are promiscuous with their emotional intimacy. And their emotional promiscuity indicates they are either low value or have a potential for abandonment.”

    OK but there is a snag here. For a guy like me who is highly introverted, I don’t tend to be ‘promiscuous’ with my emotional intimacy. I simply don’t bother being super selective when it comes to women, because I’m super selective when it comes to people in general. So, any woman that makes it past our first meeting has already been filtered, and to me there is very little need to filter much more past date 3ish.

    I’m by no means emotionally promiscuous, but only because I’m not very social at all. This is why I say that the few relationships I have (romantic or friendships) tend to be rather emotionally charged, and my dealings with “people” are very cold and business like.

    I don’t filter hard for mates, I filter hard for everybody/anybody I intend to connect with at all. And for the most part, once a person gets past those initial filters, I’ve already decided to “open myself up” to them in whatever manner is appropriate for the relationship I intend to foster. (friendship, romance, etc.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      I imagine that if a woman knows you at all, she knows you filter aggressively up front, which means you have high standards. I also seriously doubt whether you come across as emo and supplicating even as you offer exclusivity early on. You appear to work from a very strong frame, which must make a difference.

  • Ted D

    BB – “Fisherian Explorers (and sociopaths, unfortunately) may have intense “orienting reflex” behaviors that heavily concentrate attentional resources on the new person or object.”

    I went on a Google hunt based on this comment, and just found Helen Fisher’s test for personality type. (not sure how I missed it as I am sure it has been mentioned here before…)

    It seems I am a Director/Builder – and I’d say the descriptions of these match my personality better than the MBTI did. Fascinating stuff that I’ll need to read up on…

  • Ted D

    Susan – “You appear to work from a very strong frame, which must make a difference.”

    Thanks, but I’m not trying to focus on myself here. I’m just pointing out that I know several guys pretty much just like myself. Before I even consider asking a woman out, I’d spend at least an hour or so watching her interact with others. Unless I’m introduced directly, I spend more time watching new people than talking to the the first time we meet. By the time we talk, I’ve already got a good idea of what kind of person they are, what type of temperament they have, and how they interact with others. (touchy, distant, humorous, stuffy, etc.)

    That being said, every one of my LTR mates were introduced to me by mutual friends/family. And in each case, I knew of them a bit before we officially met. So, by the time we were introduced, I’d already decided they were decent people.

    So my point is, not everyone waits until AFTER date 1 to start filtering. I’ve done at least half of mine before I even say hello.

  • Iggles

    Women do not want to be robbed of this opportunity to compete with other females. If there are no other females competing for him, a guy benefits from holding to his high standards in any case.

    Again, Susan I have to disagree here!

    That’s an extrovert thing! Introverted women do not like “competing” with other friends. For us, the guy we like entertaining direct challenger does NOT generate attraction! It’s likely to cause us to lost interest and move on — much like introverted men hate when women play “hard to get”.

    Since we do NOT like games, we do NOT feel “robbed” if a man is consistent and direct regarding his interest. As long as he escalates at a reasonable pace we will do so in kind. Directness, in fact, will increase our opinion of him; not diminish it!

    Having low standards, or worse, none (like our friend in the comic above), is a turnoff to women.

    This is true.

    Introverted girls don’t like men who are “emotional sluts” either. Sluttiness – whether physical or emotional – implies a lack of discernment. All that’s needed is a warm body! The individual is replaceable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      Since we do NOT like games, we do NOT feel “robbed” if a man is consistent and direct regarding his interest. As long as he escalates at a reasonable pace we will do so in kind. Directness, in fact, will increase our opinion of him; not diminish it!

      OK! I stand corrected! As a rather extreme extrovert, I appreciate the viewpoint of introverts as needed.

      I can understand well how refreshing direct and forthright communication is in relationship, as long as the commitment is offered at a point where one has truly had the opportunity to get to know the other person.

  • Abbot

    “Sluttiness – whether physical or emotional – implies a lack of discernment. All that’s needed is a warm body!”

    True. But the physical type still gets the perp something

  • chris

    “@Chris

    Are you the chris who left that comment at Heartiste?”

    Yes.

    “The question is, how can we sustain that idealization?”

    In the discussion of the study that that link referred to the authors note

    “Idealizing a partner might have protective effects because
    people have the power to shape their romantic fates through their
    behavior. Indeed, the behaviors that sustain relationships (e.g.,
    being supportive) and the behaviors that undermine relationships
    (e.g., being critical) are controllable ones. Therefore, believing
    that a partner reflects one’s hopes might predict continued satisfaction because it fosters the optimism that is needed to behave
    well and cope admirably with the costs and challenges that come
    with interdependence (Murray & Holmes, 2011). The power that
    idealization might have in fostering such resilience likely rests in
    the flexibility of the construal process itself (Griffin & Ross,
    1991). Over time, people in dating relationships redefine their
    ideals to match the qualities they perceive in their partners
    (Fletcher et al., 2000; Murray et al., 1996b). The same processes
    may be reflected in the results reported here. As time and greater
    interdependence reveal exactly how a partner is disappointing,
    people who flexibly adjust their ideals to match the qualities they
    now perceive in their partner might stay satisfied despite the
    disappointments (Kunda, 1990).”

    Thus, if you want to sustain the idealisation, ensure your partner lives up to those ideals, change your ideals, or don’t become aware of your partners ability to live up to those ideals, i.e. if you think you wife is ohh so sweet and perfect, don’t routinely watch her crap on the toilet.

    Another thing one may note in the discussion of the study is this;

    “Remarkably, participants who initially exhibited high
    unrealistic idealization of their partner experienced no decline
    in marital satisfaction. In contrast, those who initially idealized their partner the least experienced precipitous declines in
    satisfaction. Moreover, partners’ unrealistic idealization of
    actors predicted the same benefits for actors’ satisfaction.”

    So perhaps the more deluded one is about their partner te better it is for a marriage?

  • Abbot

    “the more deluded one is about their partner the better it is for a marriage”

    More than ever before. The duper slut is on the prowl.

  • Tomato

    “This comes up again and again. No one wants to be a commodity, the player of some part. I would advise men to be wary of women who do this as well – I’ve seen women go through a series of boyfriends culled from their “guy friend” group. It’s a way to get one’s heart broken.”

    Absolutely! Being cautious of those that give their heart without knowing the other person is good advice for both men and women. I’m also wary of those that jump from relationship to relationship to intentionally avoid “down time”, as they may be doing this because they are uncomfortable with themselves and want to avoid any self-reflection that can come from being alone.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Ted D, if your semantics are not what most others understand, yeah there will be confusion. Being in a relationship without love is pointless to me, like having a pizza without toppings. But since you said you fall in love easily, I guess it’s no big deal to you.

    I have also never experienced a guy asking me for exclusivity before getting to know me well. Maybe I’m just not that hot, or maybe I already gave off the vibe that I don’t “shop around.” When I fell in love it was always before any traditional physical date.

    Bastiat Blogger #87, my husband has some of that single-minded focus, drive and high intensity. He is very impatient. When he wants something, he wants it passionately and *now*. It was definitely a whirlwind experience to be the subject of that passion, and I was a little sad when he no longer gave me that much attention.

    On the other hand, he also has high comfort traits and hates the nervous/uncertaint part of the romantic “chase.” So he isn’t looking for some other woman to satisfy that high. Nowadays he tends to get excited about new toys and gadgets.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Iggles #96, I definitely agree with everything you said. Honesty and directness are appreciated in my book.

    As an aside, it’s almost eerie how similar our experiences have been, and that we’re both INFJ and see eye-to-eye on all these things!

  • WomenAreGutlessCowards

    Did you delete my posts, Susan? WTF? So now nobody knows what you are referring to, and of course, can’t make up their minds for themselves.

    Gee… I didn’t realise this site was intended for kindergarten, for children who can’t READ something without having a heart attack about it.

    Did you rebut anything I said? I must have missed that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Did you delete my posts, Susan? WTF?

      Your handle alone is grounds enough to spam you. Come back when you’ve had a major attitude adjustment and can speak to all here with respect.

  • chris

    Just realised then I should have put;

    “or don’t become aware of your partners INability to live up to those ideals”

  • Iggles

    Thanks Hope.

    Actually I’m an INFP, “The idealist”.
    (Pragmatic optimist are the two words that sums up my outlook on life..)

  • Ted D

    Hope – “Maybe I’m just not that hot, or maybe I already gave off the vibe that I don’t “shop around.” ”

    I highly doubt it is a lack of hotness, and most likely the fact that you do indeed give off a “vibe” that leads guys to believe you are rather exclusive by default. Truth is, if you are as shy as you claim to be, any guy watching you interact with others (and pays any attention at all) would know before he introduces himself that you are likely a “one man kinda woman” and not worry so much about exclusivity.*

    I never had the DTR talk with my first two LTR mates, because they were both rather shy and clearly had limited dating experience. I didn’t worry about them ‘dating around’ because they didn’t make a habit of it before, so I didn’t expect them to start after we met.

    Now my ex and current wife? Yeah, I had the “exclusivity” discussion pretty early on, although with the current wife we, like you and your husband, didn’t start out with “dating” at all. We met through friends, got to know each other, and after a couple months found ourselves standing on her front porch kissing. She actually said to me at the time she wasn’t looking for a boyfriend, to which I replied “fine, I won’t be your boyfriend!”

    Far as it goes I still got what I wanted, and ultimately so did she it seems. ;-)

    *note: If you really want to get a girls hamster spinning, and you can learn to “figure people out” by simply watching them, NOTHING gets the female gears turning better than being able to tell her about herself on your first meeting. Of course you gotta keep it vague (because you can only make guesses at much of it) but all it takes is enough “right” answers to flip her switch. Kinda like how some people go nuts over Astrology. Of course, be careful about delivery or the “creep” word might get thrown out. and as always YMMV

  • Joe

    Sorry. I’m way behind. @Mike C.

    Internalize that you the guy are THE PRIZE. Make the girl chase you.

    Not sure about that. It contradicts about 2 million years of evolution.
    He chased her until she caught him. is a much more accurate description of the cat and mouse game Susan describes in the post.

    The misconceptions raging around here make me feel like the oldtimer that I am. If anyone thinks that women bare the risks of sexual commitment, then they need to realize that men bare the risks of emotional commitment. No one is getting away scott free.

    Having said that, if you’re standing pat, holding your ground so you won’t get taken by anyone in this game, get over yourself. Those who DON’T take the risks are the biggest losers, you know. They’re the biggest fools too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      Having said that, if you’re standing pat, holding your ground so you won’t get taken by anyone in this game, get over yourself. Those who DON’T take the risks are the biggest losers, you know. They’re the biggest fools too.

      +1

      I’ve heard some recent references to “vulnerability Game.” How tragic is that? Fools who refuse to take risks pretending that they’re willing to take risks, all to get laid, without an ounce of feeling outside one’s cock.

  • Cooper

    “Directness, in fact, will increase our opinion of him; not diminish it!”

    Well, I shall target introverts, then.

    @Susan
    “”@J
    It was our first date; I was pretty sure that I was going to marry him before the night was over.”
    I love this. I hear this a lot, actually. When it’s the future husband, women KNOW.” -Beautiful Women must try harder #1416

    If women can KNOW, then what’s the need for 7 reasons? When you have one that will suffice – “I don’t see you as my future husband.”

    If there’s 3 types of girls I can encounter: ones that immediately know, ones that immediate know NOT, and ones that don’t know yet.
    The ones that don’t know yet stand as the greatest risk to my investment, and opportunity costs.
    Why wouldn’t I next anyone that doesn’t know, and keep looking one that does? (Clearly, even you believe, they exist)

    If there are women who can come to the conclusion of wanting a guy from a husband quicker than others, assuming all being equal, why would any guy focus on the undecided ones?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      If there are women who can come to the conclusion of wanting a guy from a husband quicker than others, assuming all being equal, why would any guy focus on the undecided ones?

      That’s a good strategic question!

      In J’s case, she had known her husband for six months by the time they went on a date. I was already in love with my husband by the time he deigned to kiss me.

      In general, though, you’d have to see whether the “quick deciders” were materially different in their MMV from those who took more time, and whether they possess traits that are compatible with yours. My guess is that impulsive attracts impulsive, and thoughtful attracts thoughtful.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “If there are women who can come to the conclusion of wanting a guy from a husband quicker than others, assuming all being equal, why would any guy focus on the undecided ones?”

    LOL brother that’s easy! Because the women that “just know” and the women that can’t decide are the exact same women with a different guy. When she is with an equal/lower SMV guy, she can’t decide. But, if she manages to snag a higher SMV guy, all of a sudden she just “knows”. :P

    OK cynicism aside, some people really do just click for lack of a better term.

  • Cooper

    ” the women that can’t decide are the exact same women with a different guy”

    It sounds like a joke, but it’s how I feel. If she isn’t undecided with me, she’s very well head-over-heels (immediately) for someone else.

    And I’m better off looking for someone who wishes to be head-over-heels for me (cause of her perceiving a SMV-difference) than to waste my effort, time, and opportunities with one who obviously doesn’t have the wits to know her simply ‘isn’t that into me’ from the get-go.

  • Cooper

    *If she **IS** undecided with me

  • Tomato

    Anecdote I know, but I was definitely not a “just know” woman with my husband when I met him. I had just ended a long term relationship and needed some down time for closure but my eventual-husband persisted until he won me over. I didn’t see him as “eager”, just confident, although everyone will categorize the two differently, and behavior viewed as eager when displayed by one person can often be viewed as confident when displayed by another! Such is the confusing mush of human relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tomato

      behavior viewed as eager when displayed by one person can often be viewed as confident when displayed by another! Such is the confusing mush of human relationships.

      This is a good point! I think the man’s frame makes an enormous difference here. I recall one young woman who told me that she was on a date with a guy and the subject of tattoos came up. He asked her if she had any and she said, yes a tiny star. He asked where it was and she said on her hip, not visible. He said, “I’m going to see that star and see it regularly. That is going to be my star.” She tingled so hard she nearly fell off her chair. As it happens, he eventually turned her off with his cockiness, but that’s another story. If he’d calibrated better, she would have gone all in.

  • Ted D

    Tomato – “Such is the confusing mush of human relationships.”

    My sentiments exactly. ;-) Human social interactions often confuse me, and it gets worse as I dig deeper. LOL

  • Cooper

    I get that women don’t like decided men. I get it.

    It robs you of the uncertainty. And getting to “win” him.

    But surely I can’t be speaking gibberish when I say that uncertainty is going to far more present with guys approaching you with less than long-term intension – ones that don’t necessarily place you on the GF-ladder – than the other way around.
    It borders on the sentiment that unattainable is more worth it, which I think tends people towards uninterest individuals more so than worth-while ones.

  • Cooper

    “andd it gets worse as I dig deeper. LOL”

    LOL.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “It borders on the sentiment that unattainable is more worth it, which I think tends people towards uninterest individuals more so than worth-while ones.”

    DING DING DING! That is the irony I keep seeing over and over when this discussion comes up. The guys women claim to want for long term relationships are the guys they are the most “turned off” by. I get that men can learn “inner game” to fix this, and for their own benefit they should, but what exactly does it say about the modern woman in general that they say one thing, do another, and then get upset that their tactics didn’t work?

    Insanity – doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Cooper, that’s not as simple as “date 1 – I want him as my husband.” On the one hand you could say I “knew” right away with my husband, but that was only when he revealed his inner self to me, several weeks after we had known each other in the same social circle. After the first 5 hours of intense conversation with him, yeah I knew there was definitely potential, but not before then.

    The first thing my husband had ever said to me actually turned me off and made me dismiss him as some typical dudebro player type. He had negged me pretty hard over ventrilo. When I started talking to him more, and he told me about that initial joking neg/tease, I was like, “That was YOU?!” To be fair, he only said it because I was jokingly being a “typical girl,” and only after talking to me more did he realize there was more to me.

    Also, my falling head-over-heels in love was NOT because of some perceived SMV difference. It was because I saw that he was full of wisdom, spirituality and love, and we just connected so well that it was like we had known each other for years already. It sounds cliche, but we had “a lot in common.” Objective SMV-wise he was not some celebrity, but he was far above any celebrity to me, if that makes sense.

  • Cooper

    @Ted D

    I don’t think the women realize how this contradiction impacts nice guys.

    Every time I feel butterflies I tell myself to stomp on them. Every time I feel light beaming from my heart, I remind myself to wrap black, light-tight, tape around that sucker.
    Have those things are far more often a turn off than a turn on. (Albiet perhaps with extroverted girls than introverted ones)

    This post just reminds me that I can’t move things forward – she has to. And when dealing with introverted girl, I think this is a receipe for disaster. Introverts don’t like PLI games. And women placing such an importance on having “win his heart” just enphasizes the important of PLI-tactics, and how important it is for, however, emotional guys to cut that shit out. A shame IMO.

  • Cooper

    “Enphasizes”

    Where were you on that one, autocorrect!

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “Every time I feel butterflies I tell myself to stomp on them. Every time I feel light beaming from my heart, I remind myself to wrap black, light-tight, tape around that sucker.”

    I understand completely. But, don’t kill that off entirely! You’ll want those ‘feelings’ later for fuel to run the relationship.

    “This post just reminds me that I can’t move things forward – she has to.”

    I’m not so sure this is correct. YOU will have to “move things along”, but you’ll have to gauge how fast by her response to your initiative. I won’t say its easy (in fact I’d say that at least for me it is a real pain in the ass.) You simply have to move things along without coming from a place of “touchy/feely” emotions until she is ready for them.

    “And when dealing with introverted girl, I think this is a receipe for disaster. ”

    The only introverted woman I’ve been in a LTR with was actually pretty easy to please in this department. She wasn’t turned off by early commitment, shows of emotion, or my clingy periods. (I go through “moods” where I just feel the need to be clingy. I’m working on figuring out why and how to deal, but I’ve noticed they come FAR less post Red Pill…) Had we met a few years later in life instead of in HS, it might have worked out well. *shrug*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not so sure this is correct. YOU will have to “move things along”, but you’ll have to gauge how fast by her response to your initiative.

      Yes, this is where it is important to stay within one step of your partner. I advise women the same way when discussing emotional escalation. You escalate, then you gauge his response. If it was not positive, you do not escalate further. You sit tight. Whether we like it or not, there is some element of “dance” in mating. Pace is important, and that must come from accurately reading the other person.

  • Russ in Texas

    Hope’s not unique: I know several wildly-successful marriages that started off on fast proposals very soon after the first date (mine is one of them, but nowhere near unique in that regard). How, then, to square that circle?

    Imho, There is a tremendous difference between sensing that it’s right to commit fast and early, and turning into a relentless puppy-dog. Even the most solipsistic and emotionally-blinkered woman can tell that difference, as it’s related to fundamental character and presentation.

    If MikeC is right, then Meyers-Briggs NFs may have an advantage there in this respect; that is real food for thought. Though the plural of anecdote is not data, every successful example of this kind of marriage I’ve known, has been “mutual recognition NF flavor.”

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Iggles,

    Women do not want to be robbed of this opportunity to compete with other females. If there are no other females competing for him, a guy benefits from holding to his high standards in any case.

    Again, Susan I have to disagree here!

    That’s an extrovert thing! Introverted women do not like “competing” with other friends. For us, the guy we like entertaining direct challenger does NOT generate attraction!

    It’s interesting that you attribute this to an introvert-extrovert difference! I’m a slight extrovert and I HATE competing with other women for men. I like the fact that there aren’t really any other women lining up to get with my BF in case we break up or something (which is what I dealt with after my high school relationship ended, and I was beside myself with fury and shame).

    The competing thing has always been an issue for me though. You can ask any regular from a year ago, I’m constantly getting my panties in a bunch about female intrasexual competition and wishing there was a way to overcome it. It’s interesting that Susan often just sees it as a fact of life. I wonder how much of that is the wisdom of age, and how much is personalized experience.

  • Ted D

    Russ in Texas – “If MikeC is right, then Meyers-Briggs NFs may have an advantage there in this respect; that is real food for thought. ”

    Being married to an NF, I have to say that on first blush I think you are correct. We went from friendly acquaintances to moving in together within 5 months. (this includes the time we were simply friends)

    I’ll add that her abilities regarding social skills and understanding “people” by and large makes me appear even more inadequate at social skills than I actually am. Like Susan, my wife is a supreme diplomat. I admire it a great deal, but she had to learn NOT to use that stuff on me. Generally people attempting to be “diplomatic” with me just sets my panties in a bunch. Just slightly less than someone trying to “convince” me by using emotional ploys. Needless to say, I do NOT associate with people in sales much!

  • Ted D

    Olive – “The competing thing has always been an issue for me though.”

    I find this interesting, because I share your sentiments regarding competition in general, and certainly when it comes to dating. I’m wondering what traits we share in common.

    Mind you, it isn’t my lack of faith in my abilities that makes me dislike competition, it is that I really hate having to somehow “prove my worth” by competing directly. I much prefer individual evaluations when possible. I’m more than happy to have someone pick my work apart to find out where I need improvement, but do NOT use someone else as an example of what I should or shouldn’t be doing. I have no desire to be “better” than the next guy, I only want to do my best on my terms. I’m selfish like that!

  • Tomato

    I’m also not a competitor. If a guy says “I want to spend the rest of my life with you” after date #2, I’m not thinking “Oh damn, there goes my chance to fight off other women with an axe for his love!” I’m thinking “Really, dude? You hardly even know me.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    “Unattainable is more worth it”

    Maybe for someone who doesn’t actually want a loving relationship.

    There was a guy before my husband. I felt butterflies and the guy didn’t; I wanted to move things forward and he said no. He was the type to go for hard-to-get girls, and I was too eager. I was in the position of the “beta nice girl.”

    I actually asked my husband for advice, and he told me that I should just accept that it’s over and move on. After that conversation I opened my mind to the possibility of others. One of those possibilities was my husband. Two days later, I talked to my husband for two hours, and thus it began. :P

    Ironically, a few years later, when that guy found out I was happily married and about to have a baby (i.e. unattainable), he was like “I should have accepted your offer back when you wanted me.” He was ready to get married and have kids then, but his girlfriend wasn’t. I shrugged, and cut off contact.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Russ in Texas, knowing we’re all ticking in similar ways doesn’t stop people from being interesting. In fact sometimes more so. :)

    Such impressive compexity and diversity comes from relatively few physical processes, which is itself a cause for awe.

  • LJ

    I don’t think anyone like “competition” in dating “The Bachelor/Bachelorette” style, but I think it’s important when you’re getting into a relationship w/ someone, to feel like you’re was actually selected over other options. So someone who is promiscuous, either physically or emotionally, isn’t selective, and so it really doesn’t feel like you’re anything special because they would have taken ANYONE.

    So if I’m dating a guy I don’t want competition in the sense that he tells me about the other girls he’s dating, but I want to get the sense that he knows that there are other women he could date but he’s choosing me because he actually likes me, not because he’s desperate to not be single anymore and I’m the only option.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So if I’m dating a guy I don’t want competition in the sense that he tells me about the other girls he’s dating, but I want to get the sense that he knows that there are other women he could date but he’s choosing me because he actually likes me, not because he’s desperate to not be single anymore and I’m the only option.

      Exactly.

  • Russ in Texas

    @Hope#127 — not sure I understood this part:

    “Russ in Texas, knowing we’re all ticking in similar ways doesn’t stop people from being interesting. In fact sometimes more so. ”

    Can you expand/clarify?

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    Ted D said ‘ “The guys women claim to want for long term relationships are the guys they are the most “turned off” by…what exactly does it say about the modern woman in general that they say one thing, do another, and then get upset that their tactics didn’t work?”

    I see this in women and men. We say we want one thing, but we behave in a way that leads us in the exact opposite direction. I don’t know if it’s a self-sabotage thing or just people not being able to admit what they want.

    Or maybe it has something to do with ye olde ambivalent attachment style (Can’t remember if attachment styles come up on this blog much) characterized by a lot of “Go-Away/Wait-Why-Are-You-Leaving-Me?” drama.

    These people want intimacy and feel threatened by it at the same time.

    I imagine it must be confusing to folks who are more the straight-shooter type.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Russ in Texas, basically what I mean is that when people fall in love, they tend to behave similarly and even have similar brain scans in studies. It’s quite fascinating.

    Also I like what you said about “mutually recognized NF flavor.” I know a couple who just recently got engaged who would probably fall under this as well.

  • Ted D

    “How tragic is that? Fools who refuse to take risks pretending that they’re willing to take risks, all to get laid, without an ounce of feeling outside one’s cock.”

    I don’t know if its tragic, but considering the current dating and mating environment, I find it to be totally predictable and expected. For many guys, the means always justifies the ends. And with sexual access so easily attained from a certain subset of women, the guys that like a ‘challenge’ will set their sites on women that don’t ‘give it up’ so easily. They aren’t just in it for the sex, they are looking for a real conquest, as in getting a restricted woman into bed on false pretenses.

    Not all PUA guys are cads of course. (I feel kinda stupid even typing that in, but I’m not trying to start a PUA grudgefest today.)

  • Doc

    All of this can be summed up simply as – a woman needs to compete with other women, and WIN a man. It is as simple as that – and any man who wants to have women, needs to already have women who want him. It’s a vicious cycle, since committing to one woman when you have many, really puts you at her mercy, since unless you have others showing your “proof of worth” you aren’t worth anything to her.

    This is why, it’s best to have a string of pearls – with each woman being brought along so you always have several. Any man that only has one woman to take care of his needs, is a fool, and will soon be a lonely fool…

  • Unending Improvement (@UnendImprov)

    @70 Byron:

    Far from it. In fact, take a look at my Twitter account. I can guarantee you I am probably the opposite of Plain Jane in every way.

  • Ted D

    Susan – ” I think the man’s frame makes an enormous difference here.”

    Question: Can you be more specific? I get the impression you are insinuating that individual women may view the same man completely different based simply on the presentation of their “frame?” Perhaps my idea of what frame consists of is flawed, but I thought it was simply a man’s general outlook on life and his place in it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Can you be more specific? I get the impression you are insinuating that individual women may view the same man completely different based simply on the presentation of their “frame?” Perhaps my idea of what frame consists of is flawed, but I thought it was simply a man’s general outlook on life and his place in it.

      No, I agree with you. I think others have expressed this well already – a confident statement, e.g. “I like you. I want to see more of you.” is going to be a lot more favorably received than “You’re so amazing, I can’t believe this is happening. Can I see you tomorrow and text you 20 times between now and then?”

      This relates most directly to #s 1,3 and 4.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ted,

    I find this interesting, because I share your sentiments regarding competition in general, and certainly when it comes to dating. I’m wondering what traits we share in common.

    Well for starters we live in the same area. :-P I often get along with INTJs because everyone in my family is one (except me). I actually suspect my BF is either INTJ or INFJ.

    As for competition, I actually don’t mind it in other areas. I was once a very good pianist, and I’m sure you know certain areas of music performance (mainly classical) are all about the competition. I just hate the idea of competing with a good friend.

  • Ted D

    Olive – “As for competition, I actually don’t mind it in other areas. I was once a very good pianist, and I’m sure you know certain areas of music performance (mainly classical) are all about the competition. I just hate the idea of competing with a good friend.”

    I can enjoy competition in sports and games, but that’s about it. But I also don’t care too much about my abilities in sports or games, so I suppose that proves nothing. :P

    I competed musically in HS, and although I thoroughly enjoyed placing and moving on, I never really enjoyed it, and certainly not from a “I’m better than all of them” standpoint. I guess I’m a bit self-centered in that each time I won, I simply believed I deserved it because my performance was the best. I never even considered that this also meant everyone else’s wasn’t, because other people rarely even enter my mind.

    That being said, I actually enjoy competing with friends, probably because unlike most “people”, I care about what my friends think. If I “win”, I assume they learn from my success. If I “lose”, I do my best to learn from theirs. I very much dislike competing with strangers on anything of importance, because I don’t feel like there is any value in losing to someone I can’t learn from. If I don’t know them, I don’t trust them. And if I don’t trust them, I won’t learn from them. (Holy crap that was complex!)

    I know you live in Da Burgh, but you aren’t from here originally, right?

  • Ted D

    “I competed musically in HS, and although I thoroughly enjoyed placing and moving on, I never really enjoyed it, and certainly not from a “I’m better than all of them” standpoint.”

    Let me clarify. (hard to write on phone screen!)

    I mean that although I enjoyed placing and moving on, I didn’t derive any pleasure from beating everyone else. I was simply happy *I* was moving on.

  • Ted D

    In fact, thinking back on it, I often felt bad for the people I beat! And on occasion even thought to myself that someone else deserved the win more than I did. Once I even said so to my choral instructor after the winners were posted, and he told me it wasn’t my decision to worry about. LOL (it wasn’t his either as we were at a district vocal competition. The kid I thought should have won in my place not only sang well, but he had perfect pitch! Totally amazing ability, but I guess it didn’t help his overall singing ability though…)

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I think others have expressed this well already – a confident statement, e.g. “I like you. I want to see more of you.” is going to be a lot more favorably received than “You’re so amazing, I can’t believe this is happening. Can I see you tomorrow and text you 20 times between now and then?””

    OK. But you realize that some of this may simply be bad communication style right? I mean, “you’re so amazing I can’t believe this is happening…” is way over the top, but:
    “I like you and want to see more of you”

    and

    “You are really amazing. Can we do something tomorrow”

    To me, both statements are pretty much saying the exact same thing. However, I bet many people here will say the “frame” in the second statement is weaker because the speaker “seems” to be deferential and submissive.

    I like you = you are amazing – to me, anyone I actually like is amazing so…

    I want to see more of you = can we do something tomorrow? – First example to me seems rather presumptuous and conceded, while the second seems polite and courteous. Of course I realize that most women would see it as supplication, because instead of stating they were going out, it was phrased as a question. However I don’t see much distinction here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      First example to me seems rather presumptuous and conceded, while the second seems polite and courteous. Of course I realize that most women would see it as supplication, because instead of stating they were going out, it was phrased as a question. However I don’t see much distinction here.

      You don’t see the distinction, but women do! I would not call the first presumptuous or conceited, I call it confident and dominant, though not unpleasantly so. The second is less supplicating in your revision, but is still too admiring and eager. Unless time is short, trying to schedule date #2 for the very next day is too much.

      For those readers who watched Girls last season, Charlie was the perfect example of this kind of male. Good looking, but so needy and supplicating it was sickitating. (During sex he cooed to his gf: “don’t abandon me, don’t abandon me.”)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Presentation is important (I work in the field of making things look good). When HanSolo posted about love, it was noted that the words sounded poetic. I imagine if instead he posted something like: “i hav soooo much luv in me!!! i cant wait to giv to sum hot grrl!!!” people would have found it to be an atrocity. :P

    English is my second language, but I have worked hard at my linguistic skills so that at least in that regard, I have good “presentation.”

    I think wit, sociability and “frame” are for men what looks, charm and femininity are for women. Decrying those masculine presentation traits is like a woman whining that she has to look good. Well, you don’t have to, but it sure makes you more likely to find someone good.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I see this in women and men. We say we want one thing, but we behave in a way that leads us in the exact opposite direction. I don’t know if it’s a self-sabotage thing or just people not being able to admit what they want.”

    Humans have certain ideals that we live by and want someone who matches those, in addition to being hot or sexually attractive of course. But sometimes chemistry happens with people who don’t share all of our ideals and sometimes chemistry even happens with people who don’t even fit our physical type either. That bumper sticker – “shit happens”. There’s no controlling for it.

    “So if I’m dating a guy I don’t want competition in the sense that he tells me about the other girls he’s dating, but I want to get the sense that he knows that there are other women he could date but he’s choosing me because he actually likes me, not because he’s desperate to not be single anymore and I’m the only option.”

    I really didn’t care if there were other women he could date or not. I just didn’t like that he was lying to me in order to use me and my apartment as a launching pad into a better life. I’m sure his thinking was, “well I don’t really love her now but its possible I could love her once I move there and if not, at least I’ll be in a better place to find someone I really will love than where I am now.”

  • Ramble

    Fools who refuse to take risks pretending that they’re willing to take risks, all to get laid, without an ounce of feeling outside one’s cock.

    Who says they are fools. Guys and girls go about protecting themselves, while attempting to satisfy their desires, in different ways.

    Mike Tyson, who was a rather aggressive person, said throughout most of his adult like that, in general, he was scared. He has told some horrific stories as to how he was bullied when he was younger and that one factor that drove him to learn to fight was so that he could destroy his tormentors.

    In short, he learned to fight so that he could hurt people. How tragic is that?

    But, to this man, it makes sense.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Who says they are fools. Guys and girls go about protecting themselves, while attempting to satisfy their desires, in different ways.

      I do, admittedly applying my own values to what is important in life. I have never met a man who was happy with nothing but casual sex. Even Dark Triad males know they’re missing out, and they tend to be unhappy for that reason. Going through life without real connection seems tragic, but feigning vulnerability to give the appearance of seeking a connection seems especially so.

  • LJ

    I’m sure his thinking was, “well I don’t really love her now but its possible I could love her once I move there and if not, at least I’ll be in a better place to find someone I really will love than where I am now.”

    Ouch, that sounds rough. Stories like that make me lean against cohabitation before engagement.

  • Cooper

    Re: “I want to see more of you”

    Well, that’s something I’d not ever think to say – haha – if I worded it it’d had “I’d like to” in it.

    I’m gonna give yours a go…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Well, that’s something I’d not ever think to say – haha – if I worded it it’d had “I’d like to” in it.

      I’m gonna give yours a go…

      Good! Do it to the girl you kissed. Say, “I want to see you. Time to hang.” or some variation on that. I’m getting tingly just thinking about it!

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Ouch, that sounds rough. Stories like that make me lean against cohabitation before engagement.”

    The entire time I was telling him that he didn’t love me and he insisted he did. Then, he told the next woman he met online, “I never really loved her but I’m totally in love with you” the first time he flew out to see her. Then he flew back to my apartment, continued living with me for a few more weeks, then within two months was living with this other woman, got her pregnant, shot gun wedding, and is now a well kept SAHD.
    So yeah, I was in fact a launching pad for him to a better life.
    I had asked her via email if she would have married him had he not gotten her pregnant and she said, “probably not, at least not so soon”. But they’re still together, I don’t know how “happy” though considering that she works full time and he does absolutely nothing to contribute financially, though she doesn’t have to put her child in day care, and he’s got his meal ticket. I guess pretty boys can get away with this sort of thing.

  • LJ

    Wow! Sounds like you dodged a bullet though.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    LJ, I never had any intention of marrying him or having children with him and he knew that. I made that very clear from the beginning.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    The Rebound Girlfriend, trust your instincts. LJ is right, you dodged a bullet. Forget the guy. It’s not worth your time to even think about him. It’s a new year!

  • Tom

    Eagerness early nomally implys despiration. That is rarely a good trait, male or female.

  • Cooper

    “Say, “I want to see you. Time to hang.” or some variation on that. I’m getting tingly just thinking about it!”

    That just sounds like such booty call! (I sent a variation anyways)

    Plus, what kind of person actually responds to that kind of impromptu invitations? (And doesn’t expect them to be booty calls)

    Anyways, we live an hour apart, and have busy enough lives that we can just see each other whenever one pleases – or at least I think it would be crazy to expect so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That just sounds like such booty call! (I sent a variation anyways)

      Plus, what kind of person actually responds to that kind of impromptu invitations? (And doesn’t expect them to be booty calls)

      It doesn’t have to mean “get over here now.” You can follow up with a date suggestion. It’s confident and commanding. It’s a little heavy on the dominance, I admit. She liked kissing you though! Give her more of the same, with the expectation that she is interested.

  • http://www.christianfreethought.com/ IrishFarmer

    This article is pretty spot on, and really could be gender neutral. Men and women may have different ways of doing the same thing, but in the end they usually do the same thing.

    Though, honestly, sometimes is best to overlook what may at first appear to be flaws. I mean, they are flaws, and usually people who overcommit or act clingy can actually make for decent relationships. One of my favorites was with a girl who might have otherwise been considered too “needy” by other guys.

    The sword may not cut both ways on this one, and YMMV. I think it’s easier for guys to steer a relationship on the right course than gals, but I’m a sexist so who knows…

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I want to see you. Time to hang.”

    Sounds too teenagerish. “I’d really like to spend more time with you” would probably make an adult female swoon more.

  • Cooper

    “I want to see you. Time to hang”

    Ugh, it just sounds like something Adam, from Girls, would text.
    (And, of course, not in a good way)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ugh, it just sounds like something Adam, from Girls, would text.
      (And, of course, not in a good way)

      Haha, that’s true. Just don’t be Charlie.

  • WomenAreGutlessCowards

    “Your handle alone is grounds enough to spam you. Come back when you’ve had a major attitude adjustment and can speak to all here with respect.”

    So Susan Walsh doesn’t believe in free speech – and nobody here will ever know what I said that was so ‘terrible’. How convenient.

    In reality, of course, I broached the ONE taboo subject that she, like ALL women, cannot allow to be discussed: women refuse to ask men out… why?

    Steady on guys, if any of you agree with me and start asking the same question, you will probably have your posts deleted too, and that’s just how she wants it – censoring ‘inconvenient’ questions… how pathetic.

    Tell us, Susan, why don’t YOU approach men you don’t know, get rejected, and then do it all over again, until you get the man you want?

    LOL.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gutless Wonder

      So Susan Walsh doesn’t believe in free speech – and nobody here will ever know what I said that was so ‘terrible’. How convenient.

      I certainly do not believe in free speech on my private blog. Glad to clear that up. That’s why I have a comment policy. As I stated earlier, all of your comments and even your name violates my policy. You need to learn to play nice or you can’t come in to join the adults.

      Tell us, Susan, why don’t YOU approach men you don’t know, get rejected, and then do it all over again, until you get the man you want?

      OK, little whippersnapper, what PUA forum hole did you crawl out of? I’m married and old enough to be your grandma, fool.

  • Cooper

    “Haha, that’s true. Just don’t be Charlie.”

    I’d rather be Charlie than Adam. I don’t care what that might entail – he has far less serious issues than Adam; he’s far less damaged.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “So Susan Walsh doesn’t believe in free speech”

    Your free speech-text on this blog ends where Susan’s and her readership’s eyes begin.

    “and nobody here will ever know what I said that was so ‘terrible’.”

    Nor do we care.

    “How convenient”

    For us? Very.

    “In reality, of course, I broached the ONE taboo subject that she, like ALL women, cannot allow to be discussed: women refuse to ask men out…
    Tell us, Susan, why don’t YOU approach men you don’t know, get rejected, and then do it all over again, until you get the man you want?”

    Because she’s married, you fool.

    By the way, I’ve approached and asked out several men and so have my female friends. Its happening. Just not to you.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Not to feed the troll or anything but this point has always been beaten in that a woman should never ask a guy out and all that… one thing that I didn’t have at my school but my mom and grandma have discussed was going to dances in HS (which I never did anyways) they used to have The Sadie Hawkins dances where the girls had to ask the guys. I have a hard time digesting relationship advice that advises passivity and putting up walls..it all just seems so counter productive….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Society’s Disposable Son

      Ugh, I asked Ken Allebrand to the Sadie Hawkins dance, and he said, “I don’t go to that sort of thing.” Then he went with Robyn de Guevara. :(

      The idea that girls don’t get rejected is just false. Guys know when we’re crushing on them. One guy I really had a big crush on told my BFF that I was giving him the creeps. I guess he caught me staring once too often.

      FWIW, I’m working on a resolutions post for women, and as usual, I will recommend that women take more initiative. I don’t think they should dominate, but they should definitely be more open to suggesting a hang or something casual.

  • Ramble

    I do, admittedly applying my own values to what is important in life. I have never met a man who was happy with nothing but

    I wasn’t implying that, again, someone like Mike Tyson was happy. But that his reaction to his environment seemed understandable.

    I don’t know any of these PUAs, but I would be willing to bet that most of the “robotic” ones are fairly robotic for a reason. And I bet that if I found out those reasons, I would sympathize.

  • Ramble

    The answer is Inner Game. Work on yourself without the goal of trying to game chicks into bed. When you feel good about where you are in your life, the self-confidence that is required for mating will be real rather than cocky bluster.

    No. Straight up, no.

    This answer must be discounting STEMy Betas because most STEMy Betas that I have known have had a pretty good life outside of dating/fucking but a fairly miserable “romantic” life.

    Many of these guys are doing things that they love and are often highly respected by other very intelligent men and they are clueless when it comes to girls.

    What they need, IMO, is a whole lot of naked, un-pc truth about girls and gaming and, from there, start to develop their “inner game”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What they need, IMO, is a whole lot of naked, un-pc truth about girls and gaming and, from there, start to develop their “inner game”.

      I have no problem with that, but Maven is well past that. I think he’s a PUA IIRC. It’s all Game tactics. A house of cards.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Based on the first few comments on here, it looks like drivers of those comfy white vans equipped with sirens, and stuffed with straigtjackets won’t loose their job anywhere soon.

    Through the mind aching cacophonia of your MDH overthere, I can’t help but notice that very few (if any) commentators seem to have made mention of that instinctive, sensuouslly and essentially non verbal human communication between a girl and a boy on a rendez-vous: The “colour” of the interest or intent which colours the eyes, among many other non spoken details , and which speaks volumes when properly noticed.
    As one remarked, you always know, or should feel (without words) whether to pursue the courtship or not, instead of those “force fed” verbal games of DTR’s on 1st, 2nd, 3rd dates, and so forth.
    I also notice that the way everybody seems to describe those dates/encounters or whatever between the two sexes is either as a defiant war prelude, a drag, a nerve wracking moment or at best a curious experience… but never as eagerly entering, the heart open and the prejudices down, into a new territory wrapped up in a mysterious and potentially intoxicating perfume…..well, granted, or a smell, often enough :-)

    “6-Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men.”

    Sure, but up to a point. A man confident enough and who knows about women will turn the situation to his own advantage by doing just that to have the woman running after him. It’s a fine line in both cases. But I guess the advice applies to confused college M&F students who apparently know very little about the opposite sex here.

    “He is certainly creating his own idea of his beloved as perfection. Most of us know this will wear off. ”

    Replace “He” by “She” and you’ll find men and women having one of those similar common grounds here.

    “What does bf/gf mean? Introducing your lover to your social circle? Facebook? Close friends in person? Family? ”

    Haha, good question. Just like cherry pie, it seems to me that all those labelings (among so maaany others) are very much part of americana.

    “You can be infatuated early on, but real love takes time”

    Should anything else need be said?

    “The question is, how can we sustain that idealization?”

    The idealization, or, rather, the crystalization. That is THE question at the heart of all long term couples, and a question I don’t think older couples can satisfactorily and/or honestly answer to.

  • Sassy6519

    It’s interesting that you attribute this to an introvert-extrovert difference! I’m a slight extrovert and I HATE competing with other women for men. I like the fact that there aren’t really any other women lining up to get with my BF in case we break up or something (which is what I dealt with after my high school relationship ended, and I was beside myself with fury and shame).

    The competing thing has always been an issue for me though. You can ask any regular from a year ago, I’m constantly getting my panties in a bunch about female intrasexual competition and wishing there was a way to overcome it. It’s interesting that Susan often just sees it as a fact of life. I wonder how much of that is the wisdom of age, and how much is personalized experience.

    Hmm, I think there is definitely a great deal of variation concerning the topic of competition.

    I’m very extroverted, and I can say that I have no problem engaging in “passive competition” over a guy. I would never directly fight or challenge a woman over a man, but I don’t mind knowing that there are other women out there who like the guy I’m dating/seeing.

    It’s funny, but the last few topics of discussion have been very congruent with some of my most recent dating experiences. Here is a good example of “passive competition”.

    I was invited by the guy I’m dating to a birthday party for one of his work colleagues. Before we went to the party, he informed me about a woman who he thought had a crush on him. He said that he told her about me, and that she started acting very strangely around him ever since.

    When I went to the party, this one woman made her way straight towards me. My guy introduced me to her, and she promptly gave me the catty “up and down” look. After saying a few words to me, she eventually went away. Throughout the night, however, she continued to keep an eye on he and I. The even funnier thing is that she supposedly felt the need to bombard my guy with a ton of questions about me the next day at his place of work. He told me that the questions started off as harmless curiosity, but then they eventually morphed into catty and snide remarks. He then told me that he eventually tossed a snarky comment her way, which shut her up for good.

    I guess I don’t mind that kind of competition because I’m confident in my ability to get and keep a man’s attention. Knowing that other women are attracted to my guy or like him doesn’t phase me. When a man is of high SMV, that comes with the territory.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I’m always amazed when either sex uses transparent tactics to diss a rival. Verbal derogation of competitors is very common in mating. In fact, Athol Kay tells a story of meeting Jennifer and telling her that her boyfriend was a loser.

      Research suggests this is not effective, at least for women:

      Past research on intrasexual competition for mates has revealed at least four strategies
      that people may deploy. One of the most frequently used strategies is competitor
      derogation, such that people derogate potential rivals with respect to their appearance and
      personality. What remains unknown is how those who derogate rivals are perceived by
      others. Here we examine how female derogators are viewed by men (i.e., potential mates)
      and women (i.e., potential rivals), and investigate whether the form of derogation matters.
      We used a pre-post research design to document changes in perceptions of derogators
      who made negative statements about other women’s appearance, personality or sexuality.
      Overall, men significantly decreased their evaluations of the derogator’s friendliness,
      kindness, trustworthiness and overall desirability as a mate. Women mirrored these
      results, but also significantly decreased their views of the derogator’s fitness as a parent
      and her physical attractiveness, and in the case of appearance derogations, her
      promiscuity. We examine these results within the framework of women’s intrasexual
      competition for mates.

      http://shell.newpaltz.edu/jsec/articles/volume4/issue4/Fisher-DerVol4Iss4.pdf

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I also notice that the way everybody seems to describe those dates/encounters or whatever between the two sexes is either as a defiant war prelude, a drag, a nerve wracking moment or at best a curious experience… but never as eagerly entering, the heart open and the prejudices down, into a new territory wrapped up in a mysterious and potentially intoxicating perfume”

    Love this! :)

    “Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men”

    Well, to reference my first comment and example, he emotionally escalated too soon and too much which made me think, “I wonder if he’s doing this because he thinks I won’t have sex with unless he talks about love”. In which case he would be wrong. I would have had sex with him regardless because I was sexually attracted to him, there was sexual chemistry between us and I desired to make love to him.
    So then I thought ok it must be something else, like he needs to get away from his miserable situation.

    Witholding intimacy from him, whether sexual or emotional, would not have changed that, and in fact DID NOT change that because I never reciprocated his “I love you’s” in their initial stages, but he kept on keeping on, because he needed a change of scenery and a launching pad into a new life.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    So much of this strikes me as ridiculous. Guys wanting a relationship with a girl just because he’s desperate? I’ve known a shit-ton of perpetually single guys, and none of them have ever, ever, ever, ever, ever done ANYTHING like this.

    Girls? Yes.

    Boys? Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe a guy right out of a relationship might just jump into this one, but I have NEVER seen a guy jump into a relationship because he was “desperate.” Just…no.

    Maybe I have a restricted view of this, I don’t know.

    I know when I had the DTR talk with my current SO, she confessed she was alternating between thinking I was a player and thinking I was desperate to have a GF. That she could hold such contradictory opinions makes me think that girls who have this mindset are projecting and suffering from some rather large insecurity issues.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @178

    Well if a guy asks out a girl and gets rejected he should then stop and advise other guys not to do so…

  • Damien Vulaume

    “I wonder if he’s doing this because he thinks I won’t have sex with unless he talks about love”. In which case he would be wrong. I would have had sex with him regardless because I was sexually attracted to him, there was sexual chemistry between us and I desired to make love to him.”

    Sure, fair enough, if that’s how you viewed it from the begining, but that’s something else than being in a frame of mind of looking for a stable long term partner. Anyway, looks like you unfortunately found a perenial self centered pick up douche. The best thing is that you got out of it unscathed.

  • Ramble

    I have no problem with that

    Well, you said that they should pursue “Inner Game” without any interest in banging girls, which is a little like telling a guy to get healthier without any interest in breathing.

    One of the un-pc truths is that, not matter how much we enjoy relationships, few things are as exciting as conquering new pussy. Now, it is not difficult to foresee an environment where the two can meet: modest girls open to monogamous relationships.

    But, with or without that exact scenario, more young men need to internalize that having their hind brain focused on exciting sex is a good thing and nothing to be ashamed of and supported as much as any prime desire that girls have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, you said that they should pursue “Inner Game” without any interest in banging girls, which is a little like telling a guy to get healthier without any interest in breathing.

      No, not without any interest, but what is the end goal? If it’s strictly casual, short-term sex and you’re not too picky then Game can get you there. Asshole Game will get you there fastest of all.

      If you want to sustain attraction, that’s a whole different objective, and one that requires Inner Game.

  • LJ

    “I’ve known a shit-ton of perpetually single guys, and none of them have ever, ever, ever, ever, ever done ANYTHING like this.”

    Ask your female friends. They’ll have stories of guys coming on too strong — of course your guy friends won’t tell you they’ve done this because they probably don’t even realize they came on too strong.

    “she confessed she was alternating between thinking I was a player and thinking I was desperate to have a GF.”

    Are those really contradictory though?

  • Ramble

    “I wonder if he’s doing this because he thinks I won’t have sex with unless he talks about love. In which case he would be wrong. … I desired to make love to him.”

    Always interesting.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Anyway, looks like you unfortunately found a perenial self centered pick up douche. ”

    He wasn’t a pick up artist at all. In fact he’s very monogamous and family oriented by nature.

    “I wonder if he’s doing this because he thinks I won’t have sex with unless he talks about love. In which case he would be wrong. … I desired to make love to him.”

    “Always interesting.”

    I don’t like to use the f word.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,

    I guess I don’t mind that kind of competition because I’m confident in my ability to get and keep a man’s attention. Knowing that other women are attracted to my guy or like him doesn’t phase me. When a man is of high SMV, that comes with the territory.

    Yeah I think this is the key difference between us. It’s not that my BF, or guys I’ve dated, are low SMV, but they aren’t the “cream of the crop,” so to speak.

    As a woman with a higher SMV, I assume you’re going to be engaging in some female intrasexual competition as you go for the top guys. As a 6ish, I simply recognize that the top guys wouldn’t be interested in me (definitely not for anything other than a ONS), so I go crazy for a guy who garners little attention from other women.

    My high school BF was such a nerd, yet he was a terrible flirt and for whatever reason, after he started dating me, other girls started noticing him. The two girls he dated after me both developed crushes on him while I was dating him. You can bet I’d noticed and already become insecure about it/given them the evil eye.

    Like I said, I’m very happy with my mostly not-in-demand BF. There are a couple girls I worry about, but my BF admits he doesn’t even know how to flirt. ;-) And that he’s not interested in anyone besides me. I believe him, considering what he’s put up with so far.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “As a woman with a higher SMV”

    What is SMV and why is Sassy’s higher?

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper, Iggles

    “Directness, in fact, will increase our opinion of him; not diminish it!”

    Well, I shall target introverts, then.

    Yup hehe.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Rebound GF
    “He wasn’t a pick up artist at all. In fact he’s very monogamous and family oriented by nature.”

    From what you described of his behavior and actions, that’s the texbook for a certain kind of pick up artists, or seducers, alphas or whatever you want to call them: A first rate deceiver in any case. Monogamous and very family oriented, the kind with a Mommy complex, hopping from one girl’s home to another, having a few kids scatered here and there. That’s exactly what my own cousin has been doing all life long. He was every time monogamous, amourous, lived in his girlfriends’ appartement while barely supporting himself on odd jobs, and then making the transition to another one with better prospects. Sometimes, he would change the script, like skipping the transition. Instead, in order to leave the gf, he would discreetly pick up his wallet and id, courageously tell her with tender eyes something along the lines of “I’m just going out to buy the newspaper, my love, do you need anything?” and then took off for ever…

  • Ramble

    If it’s strictly casual, short-term sex and you’re not too picky then Game can get you there.

    Right, but few men operate with the idea that they will strictly seek casual, short term sex. And, for those few guys that do, I am betting that something went really wrong when they were growing up and, like I said earlier, they are less likely fools to be pitied, but rather mistreated boys to, possibly, sympathize for.

  • Ramble

    What is SMV and why is Sassy’s higher?

    Sexual Market Value.

    She’s physically attractive.

  • Tomato

    Sassy, it’s interesting that your man was subtly encouraging the competition by informing you about the woman in the first place. Maybe he was trying to warn you, maybe he was trying to gauge your reaction.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    I’d rather be Charlie than Adam. I don’t care what that might entail – he has far less serious issues than Adam; he’s far less damaged.

    This 100%.

  • INTJ

    @ Ramble

    The answer is Inner Game. Work on yourself without the goal of trying to game chicks into bed. When you feel good about where you are in your life, the self-confidence that is required for mating will be real rather than cocky bluster.

    No. Straight up, no.

    This answer must be discounting STEMy Betas because most STEMy Betas that I have known have had a pretty good life outside of dating/fucking but a fairly miserable “romantic” life.

    Many of these guys are doing things that they love and are often highly respected by other very intelligent men and they are clueless when it comes to girls.

    Precisely. I have half a dozen close friends who would probably place in the top 10% of the population in terms of inner game level. But only one of them has had even rudimentary success with girls.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I’m always amazed when either sex uses transparent tactics to diss a rival.

    Me too.

    @ Olive

    As a woman with a higher SMV, I assume you’re going to be engaging in some female intrasexual competition as you go for the top guys. As a 6ish, I simply recognize that the top guys wouldn’t be interested in me (definitely not for anything other than a ONS), so I go crazy for a guy who garners little attention from other women.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve always pictured you as a young Lisa Loeb. :)

    @ Tomato

    Sassy, it’s interesting that your man was subtly encouraging the competition by informing you about the woman in the first place. Maybe he was trying to warn you, maybe he was trying to gauge your reaction.

    My impression was that he was genuinely trying to warn me. He did tell me about her before we went to the party, but he also followed it up by stating that he would be happy to leave the party at any time if I felt awkward or uncomfortable. He was much more concerned with whether or not she would be rude to me, which was a possibility since alcohol was a factor.

    After I learned about her, I was curious to see what she was like. She ended up being a standard blonde woman. Perhaps I’m weird, but I’ve always found such situations to be very funny, not awkward or uncomfortable.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ask your female friends. They’ll have stories of guys coming on too strong — of course your guy friends won’t tell you they’ve done this because they probably don’t even realize they came on too strong.

    That’s different. You’re saying guys come on too strong. Sure. The impression being gathered is “desperate to have a girlfriend.” Not registering in my head.

    One is a strategy, the other is a mental state.

  • LJ

    What is a likelier explanation the kind of over-eager behavior we’re talking about (for example, pushing for very frequent communication/getting together early on)? Desperate to get laid? Could be, except sometimes it happens after sex. He’s falling for the girl? Doesn’t make sense when he barely knows her.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,
    Haha probably not. Here’s a recent pic:
    http://imgur.com/Ly305

    Now you can picture me as… me!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Thanks for sharing that cute pic! I love knowing what readers look like. I would give anything for your hair!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    Cute picture! :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OMG Olive, super cute puppy!

    Also, you’re quite cute yourself. ;) Don’t sell yourself short!

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Olive I love your hair. Sassy is that a photo of you you’ve got there?
    Olive I’d say you are of about equal ranking to Sassy (if that’s her), adjusted for your different ethnic backgrounds.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “A first rate deceiver in any case. Monogamous and very family oriented, the kind with a Mommy complex, hopping from one girl’s home to another, having a few kids scatered here and there.”

    Damien, no kids scattered here and there. He has one child with his wife. I was his launching pad to marriage and family. He is currently a very domesticated SAHD who regularly posts updates on Facebook about what words his daughter can say.

  • LJ

    Yep Olive, you and that puppy are totes adorbs :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    RE: Short-term flings. “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.”

    -Mark Twain

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Mark Twain was onto something. There has been a lot of research on regret, and it turns out that 75% of regrets are for things not done.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Good one, Bastiat ;)

  • J

    Very cute pic, Olive. Your hair is amazing!

  • INTJ

    @ Olive

    Thanks for the pic! Helps me with my mental picture of you.

    Out of curiosity, how often did guys ask you out? You look very friendly and approachable.

  • Emily

    >> “In reality, of course, I broached the ONE taboo subject that she, like ALL women, cannot allow to be discussed: women refuse to ask men out…
    Tell us, Susan, why don’t YOU approach men you don’t know, get rejected, and then do it all over again, until you get the man you want?”
    > “Because she’s married, you fool.”
    —-
    LOL!!!!

    Cooper: Congrats!!!!!!!!!! Is this a new girl, or did you finally win over the famous Ms. Flaky?

    Olive: Very cute! Both you and the puppy. :)

  • VD

    After I learned about her, I was curious to see what she was like.

    I always found it amusing how when I started seeing a new girl, she would occasionally show up at the strip club or wherever to check out the past competition. Although the funniest example was probably when I was walking through the Mall of America with a new girl one afternoon and she asked what the previous one was like. She didn’t appear to be terribly pleased when I pointed to a twenty-foot tall picture on the side of the Nike store a few minutes later.

    The bizarre thing about it was that the Nike girl was from California and I didn’t know she’d done any modeling. She had been visiting earlier that winter, we’d gone to the mall to buy her a coat, and she was telling me about how she’d dabbled in it a little bit when she looked up, blinked a few times, and said, “actually, that’s me right there.” It was a little surreal.

  • VD

    Now you can picture me as… me!

    Olive, facially speaking, you have decent material with which to work. (Can’t see enough of the body to have an opinion.) My guess, based on your lack of makeup and your puppy, is that you’re a little too relaxed and genuine to bother most of the time and you really don’t know how to use it to your advantage. That’s fine, it’s completely up to you, but the point is that if you were to take the trouble, you’d probably be able to pull a point or two higher. I’m not saying you should, merely that the option is available to you in a way it is not to uglier girls. You, at least, don’t have to be plain.

    The vast majority of women have zero idea how to wear makeup. They all think they do, but I’ve dated a professional makeup artist as well as a number of models, and you’d be shocked at how an eight looks a ten and a six looks an eight under a sufficiently deft hand. With your pale skin and the red tones in your hair, she could easily make you look like a femme fatale. If you want to try it out, go to a very good photographer, ask him who he uses for makeup and get the phone number. Then call her, pay her for an hour of making you up professionally, and have her take a few before and after pictures of you.

    That’s your high end. That’s what you can be if you want. If you like the results, take some classes and learn how to do it yourself.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    @Olive #201

    You resemble Olivia de Havilland.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Thanks all!

    INTJ,
    Not very many guys have asked me out. It’s been three and a half years since I was last single, but I was more “successful” (if you want to call it that) in the hookup scene, with guys here and there asking me to dance at frat parties and whatnot. I have no sense of what it’s like out of college, as I take pains to make myself pretty unapproachable in public. I don’t find it appropriate to make myself available when I’m taken, though I think I’ll need to switch up that attitude a bit when I go job hunting, so I don’t come off as downright cold. Thanks for the compliment!

    VD,
    Thanks for the honest assessment. I actually just bought some makeup, like two weeks ago, and am learning how to use it for the first time, at the age of 24. I wore it around my BF one day and he said he’s “not a makeup person,” which could mean a number of things but I took at face value. When I do wear it, I try to make it as natural as possible (mostly just covering blemishes and adding a tiny bit of color). Women in my family have this weird thing about worrying that they’re drawing too much attention to themselves, and I’m afraid I’ve inherited it. I’m sure I could come off a point or two higher (I’m naturally thin and very small in stature, only 4’10 1/2″) and will work to do so if my BF suddenly starts hitting the gym or something. Until then, I’ll probably wear makeup to job interviews and see where it takes me.

  • Lokland

    As a general rule enjoyment of competition is correlated with ones ability to win that competition, usually demonstrated by past performances.

    @Susan

    On the intra-sex girl dis’ing, extremely unattractive. Insta move to the slut ladder. Nothing quite as depressing as having a nice girl who you like who ends up being a complete bitch. Let down.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Keeper of Acronyms

    Susan Walsh:

    It’s odd – often these guys spend a great deal of time typing and articulating their thoughts, only to be put into mod or spammed.

    You may want put your moderation / censoring more visible.

    In other words there is needed for place holders for censored comments:

    <removed> January 2, 2013 at 4:35 pm 170

    This comment is removed. See Rules of Engagement.

    I do not know, if WordPress allows this.

    (But not that for these comments, which goes directly to moderation queue. )

  • Ted D

    “As a general rule enjoyment of competition is correlated with ones ability to win that competition, usually demonstrated by past performances.”

    I don’t know. Win or lose I pretty much feel the same way about competing. I’m only interested in it from a ‘whats in it for me’ perspective, and unless there is something substantial coming my way from winning, I don’t see the point in making the effort.

    Winning for the sake of winning is basically pointless IMO.

    Of course, I’m also not the type to climb a mountain simply to prove I can. I have no interest in climbing, and even if I did it, how would it change my life for the better?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Olive, my husband is anti-makeup as well, which suits me just fine.

    Makeup looks great in photos, but in person looks too fake or overdone. Yes you can do the “natural” look makeup, but honestly the time/effort is just not worth it. I wear contacts and tinted chapstick, ready in 10 minutes flat.

    Biggest changes come from fast things like lip color, covering up blemishes and eye definition. Spending hours will be too much in broad daylight. I think it “ages” a person, so good for a teen who wants to look older, but not great after that.

  • Damien Vulame

    Susan: “it turns out that 75% of regrets are for things not done.”

    Regrets, ah, regrets… that needle-aching part of one’s heart’s memory.
    To me, regrets are 100% related to things we haven’t done, whereas the rest would be rather called remorses instead.
    My grand father, who was a caricature of the galant yet proud French man from past lost generations (complete with a daily-wearing beret, but no mustache, lol), used to tell me (in a thunderous voice, raising ceremoniously up from his chair), when I was in my late teens and would turn to him to confide about a girl dilema of mine: „Listen to me you little boy, it’s better to have remorses than regrets! Now, and this is between us, since today your grandmother’s radar eyes are away for a while (and he would briefly anxiously glance around to make sure it was the case), let’s finnish this bottle of wine together and you tell me why you haven’t approached this little flower of yours yet! Here’s your glass!“
    The grandmother in question was the proud one you said you would have liked to have a glass of wine with. They were a funny and endearing couple. Always confronting each other with that proud declamatory style, yet never hurting each other. It was like a live theater play everytime. They remained faithfull to each other until the end. But these were other times, hardly duplicable in today’s culture.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      I wish I could know your grandparents today. What a wonderful story. The wit and humor exemplified in that anecdote makes me long for something very different.

      As a lifelong Francophile, I especially enjoy your Gallic perspective. You have a healthier way of looking at human interactions than we Americans do, by a mile.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Hope,
    So funny how similar your hubby and my BF are!

    Yes you can do the “natural” look makeup, but honestly the time/effort is just not worth it. I wear contacts and tinted chapstick, ready in 10 minutes flat.

    That’s basically how I feel about makeup too. I could afford to look a couple years older since I’m so small and look so young (a distant relative at Thanksgiving thought I was 15), so that’s why I’m open to it for job searching purposes. But at home I definitely pass.

  • Damien Vulame

    “Olive, facially speaking, you have decent material with which to work. (Can’t see enough of the body to have an opinion.)”…

    ROFL. I’m sure such “compliments” would make any woman in Europe melt with burning desires, and that your advices would be received with grateful aknowledgement. Sarcasm aside, I sure you don’t plan to live in that part of the world, so you’ll be just fine.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta
  • Cooper

    @Emily
    Lol. *nods*

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    (Well, I’m not girl so I should not comment this either. )

    Maven7:

    Girls, I have a question: assuming that average guy has no game at all, how would you expect him to go trough all this hurdles?

    Perhaps guys go trough when women notice that hurdles is too much. On some point there no much guys waiting for testing. In that point women notice that they need take initiative.

    (Well, Susan Walsh answered to that.)

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( women, not girls )

  • Stickwick

    @ Damien: “ROFL. I’m sure such “compliments” would make any woman in Europe melt with burning desires, and that your advices would be received with grateful aknowledgement. Sarcasm aside, I sure you don’t plan to live in that part of the world, so you’ll be just fine.”

    What makes you think the comment was intended as anything but helpful? Not every man responds to a woman to elicit desire; though, ironically, comments such as VD’s are generally better received by women than fawning, insincere flattery. It looks like Olive took it in the intended spirit. Incidentally, VD has been living in Europe for some time now.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh:

    FWIW, I’m working on a resolutions post for women, and as usual, I will recommend that women take more initiative. I don’t think they should dominate, but they should definitely be more open to suggesting a hang or something casual.

    Taking initiative is always required at least some degree (from both partners). Otherwise it does not work. Of course it varies how much is needed. We at least agreed that playing Principle of Least Interest (PLI) is downward spiral.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Ted D:

    I never had the DTR talk with my first two LTR mates, because they were both rather shy and clearly had limited dating experience.

    Same here. I never had Define the Relationship (DTR) -talk.

    / Kari Hurtta

    (Steps was other. Also steps perhaps not are very well aligned with goal of that blog.)

  • OffTheCuff

    DV: that kind of positive male role-model the kind of stuff entirely absent in many men’s lives. One conversation like that would made a huge difference in my life.

    Olive: you’ve got the girl-next-door thing down. Heck, I married one. While Vox isnt incorrect about the makeup thing boosting your look, life and love is far more than just SMV maximization of your mate. If you’re happy being an above-average “regular person” you have a lot of company. You’re kind of a fish out of water here due to the elite audience, but don’t be fooled into thinking you’re plainer than you are. Plus, you have the guts to show your face. Props to that.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ Kari Keeper of Acronyms; Continuing.

    Susan Walsh:

    I certainly do not believe in free speech on my private blog. Glad to clear that up. That’s why I have a comment policy.

    There is title Rules of Engagement. You need clarify that this is a comment policy. It is not visible.

    I suggested that under comment box there should be text that some HTML is allowed. Also add text that Speech is not free here. This is a private blog. See Rules of Engagement.

    / Kari Hurtta

  • Escoffier

    Is that a beagle?

  • Anne

    Olive & Hope
    I am really surprised by these attitudes towards makeup. When done right, makeup does make a massive difference, it does not age you and it does not look fake. I doubt any man is actually against it when he sees it done properly. 99% of the women he admires will be wearing makeup, even if he doesn’t know. Saying “it’s not worth it” implies you can let yourself go completely as long as you have someone. It’s as much worth it as it’s worth it not to be obese or do your hair in the morning.

  • Ted D

    I’m a very big fan of the natural look for women. My wife at most uses:
    1. mascara
    2. eye liner
    3. a bit of eye shadow
    4. lip gloss (no lipstick at all ever!)

    That’s it. No cover-up crap, no blush, no funky designs drawn around her eyes with liner. And most times when we go out and she puts it on, I ask her to wash her face off before she comes to bed. The last time she fell asleep still wearing makeup, I told her she looked like Ke$ha at the beginning of the “Don’t Stop” video. (where she wakes up in the bathtub. I also told her she smelled like I’d imagine Ke$ha would smell, because she had been drinking 7 and 7′s the night before, and she was emanating stale whiskey smell. LOL)

  • Escoffier

    Iron rule for makeup: if I notice it, it’s too much.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Escoff,
    Yep, beagle! He looks totally different now, his face is completely light brown without the black markings. He’s also a total rascal and drives us all nuts. ;-)

  • Ramble

    I’m sure I could come off a point or two higher and will work to do so if my BF suddenly starts hitting the gym or something.

    I did not understand this.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anne, I don’t use makeup, although at various times of my life I have tried. It’s just not comfortable. I am in shape, eat well, take daily multivitamins and otherwise take care of my health. The most important man in my life doesn’t complain. :P

    I wear contacts, so anything around my eyes makes it painful. I lick my lips a lot, so lipstick gets off. Foundation makes my skin feel like it’s not breathing. I also don’t “do” my hair since I have the same basic hairstyle all the time. I’m way too busy as a new mama to be glamorous, so it’s good that I’m low maintenance, because I basically look the same!

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Olive:

    Women in my family have this weird thing about worrying that they’re drawing too much attention to themselves, and I’m afraid I’ve inherited it.

    If Beautiful Women Must Try Harder, then not weird at all. ☺

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,
    Basically, he starts upping his SMV, I panic and start upping mine. We’re probably around the same SMV now, which is fine by me. I don’t want to increase mine and then have a complex if he doesn’t decide to do the same. Plus, as OTC says, life isn’t just about increasing your SMV. Both my BF and I have other stuff to attend to, and we’re both attracted to each other as it is.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The last time she fell asleep still wearing makeup, I told her she looked like Ke$ha at the beginning of the “Don’t Stop” video. (where she wakes up in the bathtub. I also told her she smelled like I’d imagine Ke$ha would smell, because she had been drinking 7 and 7′s the night before, and she was emanating stale whiskey smell. LOL)

    HAHA Ted, you never cease to crack me up. And hey, don’t knock that cover up crap. Some of us got awesome genes and still deal with acne into our twenties. Your wife must be lucky, also old enough that her skin doesn’t resemble a 15-year-old’s. ;-)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @OTC #232.
    Yeah, those things make huge differences in life later on with the way we interact with others, specifically women. That’s what I meant when I wrote to Ted D about “the knife and fork at the dinner table” thing.

    “life and love is far more than just SMV maximization of your mate”.

    +1. I couldn’t have said it better.

  • Ramble

    I don’t want to increase mine and then have a complex if he doesn’t decide to do the same.

    So, this is basically the opposite of, “I always try to look my best (for my man)”?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Stickwivk
    “VD has been living in Europe for some time now.”

    Then it must be in Italy or Croatia…

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Olive:

    The prettier the woman, the happier the relationship.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,
    “Best” is a relative term. There’s “best” in the sense that I don’t try to look like a frumpy clown every day, and “best” in terms of trying to shoot higher than I ever have before. What’s wrong with “good enough”?

    In any case, check out the comment about makeup that my man made when I wore it around him. If he’s not into it, I’m not going to force it. I actually think it’s a subconscious “don’t go higher SMV than me” on his part, but that’s fine. Just as I don’t look like a hot tamale every day, I don’t expect him to hit the gym if he doesn’t want to. I have a threshold and I’m sure he does as well.

  • Cooper

    “I don’t want to increase mine and then have a complex if he doesn’t decide to do the same.”

    Hmm. That’s interesting. Cause I already aim down in SMV – driven by results, and the fact that I believe hand is safer in my possession. But, I know my SMV is rising, and will for 10 more years. And, regardless of whether I get comfortable in a relationship, I do intend to keep working-out and essentially raising my SMV with inner game, ect.
    Namely, because the most crucial part is getting determined to do it for myself, so I don’t see that change. Plus, I don’t see myself suddenly having no angst to work out, once in not single.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anne

    I am really surprised by these attitudes towards makeup. When done right, makeup does make a massive difference, it does not age you and it does not look fake. I doubt any man is actually against it when he sees it done properly. 99% of the women he admires will be wearing makeup, even if he doesn’t know. Saying “it’s not worth it” implies you can let yourself go completely as long as you have someone. It’s as much worth it as it’s worth it not to be obese or do your hair in the morning.

    I agree.

    I can’t remember the last time that I ever went without wearing makeup. I look fine without it, but I feel more confident with some on. I’m always impeccably dressed as well. I’m continually shocked by the number of women who go out during the day in items that look like pajamas or really run down attire. I simply would never allow myself in public looking the way some women do. I can’t wrap my head around it really.

    If some women are able to attract men looking like that, more power to them I suppose.

  • Ted D

    Hope – “Some of us got awesome genes and still deal with acne into our twenties. Your wife must be lucky, also old enough that her skin doesn’t resemble a 15-year-old’s”

    I wasn’t trying to pick on woman that use it at all!

    My wife is 50% Irish, her dad was adopted by an American couple directly from Ireland. She has blond hair, green eyes, and a fair complexion with just a hint of “blush” naturally (She tells me red cheeks and Irish go hand in hand LOL). The only time she deals with acne is a few days before “shark week”. (for those that care, “shark week” is how we refer to my wife’s period…) and even then it is at best a zit or two. She is turning 34 this month. (I’m no longer hiding her age. She seems to be OK with letting that cat out of the bag herself, so I’m not going to worry about it myself… Besides, anyone that pays attention can do the math from my posts. :P)

    So some of it is her lucky genes, and some of it is my dislike for women that look “made up” in any way. I’m all for her using a little to accentuate her features (she uses eye liner because her light eyes don’t “pop” without it) but I get turned off by anything that is applied in multiple layers. And lipstick is simply gross. She doesn’t like it anyway and relies on lip gloss for that shiny lip look.

    I really do prefer naturally cute “Tom Boy” women over heavily made up “glamour” looks anyway. I mean, even if all that makeup looks great, she won’t look the same in the morning. My wife may not look like a runway model when we step out for the evening, but I also don’t go to bed with a 10 and wake up with a 2 the next day…

  • Ted D

    DOH last comment was for Olive. :P I guess I had Hope on the brain!

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I’m continually shocked by the number of women who go out during the day in items that look like pajamas or really run down attire.

    Now this I agree with. I’ve been to the grocery store twice in the last 4 days and both times saw women in pajama pants. I wouldn’t say I’m impeccably dressed (I wear jeans more often than not), but I wouldn’t wear pajamas in public like that.

  • Ramble

    I actually think it’s a subconscious “don’t go higher SMV than me” on his part, but that’s fine.

    I am glad you said it, because I was unsure if I should insert that meme into the conversation. I have known a lot of lower SMV guys who really prefer that their woman not wear any make up or, actually, anything nice at all (classy form fitting dress with heels, that sorta thing).

    They do not want to invite competition even if it means that they do not get to enjoy her beauty all that much.

  • INTJ

    @ Olive

    I actually think it’s a subconscious “don’t go higher SMV than me” on his part, but that’s fine.

    Perhaps. Personally though, as far as I can tell, my aversion to makeup is independent of natural SMV. If it were about “don’t go higher in SMV than me”, I would have an aversion to high SMV girls wearing makeup, but not low SMV girls wearing makeup.

  • Iggles

    I’d say you are of about equal ranking to Sassy (if that’s her), adjusted for your different ethnic backgrounds.

    Not quite following this.. While I could see race affecting people’s perception of marriage market value, I’m not sure about it affecting one’s sexual market value. An 8 would be an 8 regardless of race, no? If not, that would be lying about what your eyes see.. YMMV..

    Re: Make up -
    I don’t really wear any, other than my shaping my eyebrows. Though, I agree that makeup makes a positive difference in general.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I have known a lot of lower SMV guys who really prefer that their woman not wear any make up or, actually, anything nice at all (classy form fitting dress with heels, that sorta thing).

    Interesting. In the case of my BF, I’m being dead serious in saying that the only thing that keeps him from being, like, the male version of an 8 is his weight. If he worked out and became leaner and/or muscular, I’d have serious issues in the competition department, since he’s very manly and attractive in all other areas (tall, athletic, attractive facial features, blonde hair/blue eyes, low voice, very smart and rational).

    My BF and I are very similar like that. We both could be higher SMV but choose not to work towards that.

    They do not want to invite competition even if it means that they do not get to enjoy her beauty all that much.

    Interestingly, you can probably tell that I also don’t want to invite competition. But that’s why I’m willing to up the SMV if he ups his, because I don’t want to lose him.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Olive, my husband doesn’t work out either, but I don’t really think about his weight aside from health reasons.

    INTJ, I think makeup signals a kind of “not girl-next-door” look that can be off-putting to some relationship-oriented guys.

    Actually there was a guy who told me that I would look “so much better” if I wore makeup and gave me the photo of an Asian girl with tons of makeup. I ignored him.

    My husband was one of a handful of guys who told me I was “hot.” Most of the time people told me I looked “cute.” I’d rather have a guy who likes me au naturale, since that’s what I prefer myself.

  • Escoffier

    “An 8 would be an 8 regardless of race, no?”

    No.

    People have preferences that affect the way they judge. E.g., my college roommate was (is) Korean and he had a definite heirarchy of beauty with Asians at the top. A white 10 to me was more like a 7 or 8 to him, he would always rank an Asian 8 higher. And so on.

  • Escoffier

    Hope/Olive,

    Your men will find that exercise becomes non-optional as they age. Either that or they will start to get SERIOUSLY unattractive to the point that you begin to care, in a negative way.

    In any advent, I would advise them to start now. I took a looooooong break from exercise owing to several moves, some demanding jobs, and general laziness and while nothing catastrophically bad happened, I was lucky. It was not a wise move intrinsically.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Iggles

    Not quite following this.. While I could see race affecting people’s perception of marriage market value, I’m not sure about it affecting one’s sexual market value. An 8 would be an 8 regardless of race, no? If not, that would be lying about what your eyes see.. YMMV..

    I think that racial preferences can affect the 1-10 ratings that are ascribed to people. White men love me, I can definitely say that for sure. I know that black men like me as well. I’m not so sure how Asian men would rate me, considering that I haven’t come in contact with very many of them.

    Based off of my experiences with men, I can easily say that White men prefer me more than most other males of different races. I guess my looks are attractive enough to garner lots of their attentions. The interesting thing is that I also seem to attract more white males with fairer features than not (paler skin, lighter hair, lighter eyes). The man I’m dating has blond hair, pale skin, and some of the most amazing golden hazel eyes I have ever seen in my life. I guess things balance out, genetically speaking.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Back in college my husband was a mountain climber/biker/lifter and also did mixed martial arts. He was quite lean and muscular (but still single because he was very picky). He still lifts now and then, but he doesn’t like routines. We have a weight set and elliptical in the basement. In the summer he goes biking on dirt trails and works a ton in the yard and garden.

    I’m fairly sure that when our son gets old enough to do more, he’ll be out there doing biking, swimming, sports and general running around. We live right next to a large park (in fact we’re planning on putting a gate in our backyard right into the park area this spring/summer). It has a long and wide paved walking/running trail, several baseball, soccer and tennis areas, and two playgrounds. I hear boys have a lot of energy. Our son will keep my husband on his toes. :)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Ted: (from the “Beautiful women thread” #1350)
    “When you have some time, would you care to elaborate?
    I know I have some behaviors from being an only child, like never learning to lose a game “gracefully” or even having a competitive streak.”

    Sorry, for some reason, your comment fell off my radar scan.
    Well I sort of sensed it, pretty much because having known quite a few single children grown adult, I noticed some patterns, like the one you mention, although this is a broad generalisation. I also noticed they often have strong and independent views about their surroundings. Looks like you fit that bill :-)
    I also meant that, at any rate, I was at least convinced that you didn’t grow up with a sister. I have just one sister, we grew up close together (18 month difference in age) and, especially in my teens, what she was telling me about what puts off girls or what hurts them most where gold advices for me, and it helped me to avoid swallowing bigger fishbones (red pills) than I already had.

    “I’m doing my best to put all my new “communication style” information to good use at home. Although I can’t help but feel a bit silly “learning” to talk to someone at 42 years old.”

    Great! Nice step forward! And I’m sure you’ll soon find a noticeably improved level of “respect and affection” from your wife as well. But hey, nothing silly about it. We learn till the day we die. Only imbecils or tyrans do not wish to learn. Besides, we all come to check in here at HUS for a good reason, don’t we? Mine was sort of explained to you in my (at that time) slightly offended response to your remark (which was meant as a joke, I got that later) in the younger girls dating older guys thread, when you said that guys in their 40′s dating girls in their 20′s were pervs.:-)

  • Ramble

    …(tall, athletic, attractive facial features, blonde hair/blue eyes, low voice, very smart and rational…

    I am always surprised by how often this is NOT brought up when discussing a mans attractiveness. It seems to me that a lot more guys today have thinner, higher, “tin-ier” voices than they did in the past (it is hard for me to judge since I am basing these things on movies from the past and not real life).

    Anyway, the rest of your comment was also appreciated. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    I am always surprised by how often this is NOT brought up when discussing a mans attractiveness. It seems to me that a lot more guys today have thinner, higher, “tin-ier” voices than they did in the past (it is hard for me to judge since I am basing these things on movies from the past and not real life).

    I agree.

    A lot of men today seem to have higher pitched tenor speaking voices. They don’t sound bad, but they aren’t nearly as viscerally attractive as male voices in lower registers. I definitely prefer lower male voices, and I love hearing a man using a deep voice.

  • Ramble

    A lot of men today seem to have higher pitched tenor speaking voices. They don’t sound bad, but they aren’t nearly as viscerally attractive as male voices in lower registers. I definitely prefer lower male voices, and I love hearing a man using a deep voice.

    For me, this all makes perfect sense. That is why I am surprised why it is so rarely mentioned, as far as I can tell.

    I wish I knew more about this. For instance, one of the “easy” things any guy can do to instantly lower his register is simply to relax and slow down his speech. I put “easy” in quotes because, I am guessing, that the more stressed or heightened speech patterns are caused by more social uncertainty today (purely guessing) and therefore it would not be easy to simply relax.

    Steven Pinker, the researcher and author, has noted that it is more common today to hear people end their sentences on an up-note. That is, their speech goes up right at the end of a sentence, almost as if they are asking a question even if they are making a declaration.

    He said that in the past, you would hear girls do this, but not nearly as much as you do today and that, today, you are also hearing some guys do it while that was unheard of in the past.

  • Mike C

    A lot of men today seem to have higher pitched tenor speaking voices. They don’t sound bad, but they aren’t nearly as viscerally attractive as male voices in lower registers. I definitely prefer lower male voices, and I love hearing a man using a deep voice.

    For me, this all makes perfect sense. That is why I am surprised why it is so rarely mentioned, as far as I can tell.

    I wish I knew more about this. For instance, one of the “easy” things any guy can do to instantly lower his register is simply to relax and slow down his speech. I put “easy” in quotes because, I am guessing, that the more stressed or heightened speech patterns are caused by more social uncertainty today (purely guessing) and therefore it would not be easy to simply relax.

    Ramble,

    Interesting issue you bring up (you often bring up very interesting side points). I naturally have a very deep, strong voice. My fiancee told me that the first time I went to her salon where she works (early in our dating) for a haircut and spoke one of her friends/co-workers told her “Oooooh, testosterone”.

    Now here is what is interesting. I actually spent a good chunk of my adult life intentionally trying to soften and raise the pitch of my voice. It would be hard for me to specifically point to A, B, or C and say that is where I got that message, yet somewhere along the lines somehow I internalized that I should deemphasize my natural strong voice. Part of “red-pill” changes were to embrace and shift back to my natural voice although even now sometimes I’ll slip back. It is actually sometimes interesting to me in big group meetings at work to observe the response when I speak up. I believe there is a very complicated dynamic at work here where women can find a certain type of voice sexually attractive but simultaneous intimidating in certain contexts (such as the workplace). I’ve noted interesting stuff when I go up in volume say 10 db.

  • Mike C

    And most times when we go out and she puts it on, I ask her to wash her face off before she comes to bed. The last time she fell asleep still wearing makeup,

    Ted, that is so funny because I am the EXACT OPPOSITE. Being a make-up artist, my fiancee always does her make-up before going out. She won’t go out in public without some make-up. But sometimes when we get home, her first instinct is to go wash it off to get comfortable. If the plan is to get physical/sexual, my *strong* preference is she leave the make-up on and wash it off afterwards. It’s funny, we have very few issues or differences, but one for me is that she tends to “desexualize” herself to me when I feel like the time is to go at it. I’ll admit the no-makeup, sweatpant jammy look does absolutely zilch for me. I’m speculating, but I suspect the restricted/unrestricted mindset plays into what “look” a guy prefers in a woman. Based on the comments, it seems like more restricted guys have a strong preference for the no-makeup look.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    I’ll admit the no-makeup, sweatpant jammy look does absolutely zilch for me. I’m speculating, but I suspect the restricted/unrestricted mindset plays into what “look” a guy prefers in a woman. Based on the comments, it seems like more restricted guys have a strong preference for the no-makeup look.

    That makes sense to me. Things do seem to break down this way here.

  • Ramble

    you often bring up very interesting side points

    Right?!

    I actually spent a good chunk of my adult life intentionally trying to soften and raise the pitch of my voice. It would be hard for me to specifically point to A, B, or C and say that is where I got that message, yet somewhere along the lines somehow I internalized that I should deemphasize my natural strong voice.

    I find this easy to believe. I used to know a guy that worked at the Help Desk of a company. He was tall, broad shouldered and had a deep voice. He was let go. He is convinced it is because most of the girls that worked there found him to be intimidating even though he is a nice, patient man. He said, “You do not find guys like me in Customer Service”. Whether or not his theory for his firing was correct, he is right that you do not find masculine men in Customer Service.

    I believe there is a very complicated dynamic at work here where women can find a certain type of voice sexually attractive but simultaneous intimidating in certain contexts (such as the workplace).

    Related, and from Steve Sailer: “What’s sexist in the office is fuel in the bedroom.”

  • pvw

    Happy new year, Susan!

    Interesting observations on makeup and dress. I was thinking about that today; I went to the funeral this morning of one of our elderly parishioners, so I felt the need to dress the part: sophisticated and attractive, as I was going to represent our congregation and meet members of her extended family. I put on a black suit and a black blouse, black boots, with light makeup. I get complimented all the time that my look is tasteful, yet it did include the full works–face powder, blush, eye shadow, eye liner, lipstick and black enamel-gold earrings. I finger combed my twisted-out hair…This is a look very similar to my workday look, and I fit in–lots of matrons of the old school type (at least 15+ years older than me), dripping in jewels, nice clothes, shoes, makeup. I was surprised at the number of people not wearing the regulation black, and I was shocked at our senior warden (chair of the church governing board) attending in old stained sweats. And at a fancy downtown restaurant, to boot–the family invited us to a catered luncheon after the service and the internment at the cemetary.

    Mr. PVW loves my made-up look. He finds it attractive, pretty, well put-together…

    Thinking about eager men; it strikes me as contributing to emotional promiscuity–men who have few boundaries, it can pose a danger, as has been described, being overly eager, wearing one’s heart on one’s sleeve, for a man, makes me wonder, if he is that eager on the emotional front, will there be constant competition with his eagerness to connect with other women on an emotional level? It portends the danger of emotional affairs and competition for resources, his time, money, etc.

  • LJ

    She won’t go out in public without some make-up. But sometimes when we get home, her first instinct is to go wash it off to get comfortable. If the plan is to get physical/sexual, my *strong* preference is she leave the make-up on and wash it off afterwards.

    Washing your face is kind of part of the normal bed-time routine… I personally would feel really awkward leaving makeup on for sex. I mean, what if you want to go to sleep right after? Leaving makeup on during sleep can cause you to break out.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Mike C, don’t you find the makeup ruins the kissing experience? Like if you kiss her cheeks you taste foundation/blush, if you kiss her eye lids you taste eye shadow and if you kiss her lips you taste lip stick? All of these thinks taste horrible.

  • Ramble

    I personally would feel really awkward leaving makeup on for sex.

    Even if you, or he, thought you looked hotter made up?

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “The prettier the woman, the happier the relationship.”

    Please.
    Never heard this song?

  • pvw

    Re. makeup and leaving it on: I see it as part of putting on a role, the clothes, etc., aiming for a certain “look,” it must be the big city girl in me. But once I get home, the first thing I do is take it all off. Being at home is about the comfortable down to earth look.

  • Ramble

    From: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201005/science-secret-happy-marriages-be-more-attractive-your-spouse

    The prettier a wife in comparison to her husband the happier the marriage.
    …let me quote the authors:
    Prior studies of physical attractiveness in new and hypothetical relationships suggest that physical attractiveness should be associated with more positive outcomes in marriage.”
    But
    Results of the current study offer inconsistent support for this prediction. Although more attractive wives behaved more constructively during social support interactions with their husbands, more attractive husbands behaved less constructively and were less satisfied with their marriages.

  • Mike C

    Washing your face is kind of part of the normal bed-time routine… I personally would feel really awkward leaving makeup on for sex. I mean, what if you want to go to sleep right after? Leaving makeup on during sleep can cause you to break out.

    IDK… it only takes about 5 minutes to wash the make up off so I don’t see the difficulty of walking to the bathroom and washing it off, and then going back to the bedroom to go to sleep. But definitely you should do what feels right for you.

  • Mike C

    Re. makeup and leaving it on: I see it as part of putting on a role, the clothes, etc., aiming for a certain “look,” it must be the big city girl in me. But once I get home, the first thing I do is take it all off. Being at home is about the comfortable down to earth look.

    pvw, I understand your perspective, but Ramble raises a good question. I don’t know your husband, but what if hypothetically that “look” is more of a sexual turn-on for him? The bigger picture question here which actually ties into some bigger themes some of which would use terminology that sends Susan into a tizzy is SHOULD A WIFE do things with the clear intent of PLEASING her husband….following what his preferences are, or should she simply follow exactly her own wishes and he just has to accept that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      terminology that sends Susan into a tizzy is SHOULD A WIFE do things with the clear intent of PLEASING her husband….following what his preferences are, or should she simply follow exactly her own wishes and he just has to accept that?

      Pish posh, I’ve never suggested women should not take their husbands’ preferences into account. Nor have I ever said that men “just have to accept” anything.

      It seems to me that sex is going to be had at all times of day, and in all sorts of states of dress and undress. Makeup and no makeup, peeling off a little black dress, and peeling off a towel after a hot shower. Wearing lingerie, and wearing nothing at all.

      Personally, I would find it quite hurtful if my husband requested that I leave makeup on for sex. It seems halfway to a brown paper bag, lol.

      My husband likes it when I dress up and wear makeup, and he also likes the fresh scrubbed look. Early in our relationship he actually asked that I go without makeup at least some of the time. I wouldn’t call him restricted by any means, but he definitely prefers the girl next door look to the vamp look. My general approach is to wear an extremely natural and minimal look for everyday.

  • LJ

    I was just trying to point out why maybe your wife would prefer to take the makeup off even if you’d prefer she leave it on– might be helpful to see things from her POV (of course she could be different from me).

    What about sex in the morning? Do you want her to go put makeup on first?

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “As a general rule enjoyment of competition is correlated with ones ability to win that competition, usually demonstrated by past performances.”

    They would be extroverts.

    “On the intra-sex girl dis’ing, extremely unattractive. Insta move to the slut ladder. ”

    How does dissing correlate with promiscuity?

  • Sassy6519

    Hmmm. I leave makeup on during sex, but clearly I’m different in this matter.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “The bigger picture question here which actually ties into some bigger themes some of which would use terminology that sends Susan into a tizzy is SHOULD A WIFE do things with the clear intent of PLEASING her husband….following what his preferences are, or should she simply follow exactly her own wishes and he just has to accept that?”

    Its not so binary. There is a middle ground. Home is a place to unwind, relax and regroup after a day out at work or wherever. People aren’t turned on all the time at home and sex isn’t the only thing we do there. When its time for that, whatever it takes to arouse those feelings can be done.

  • Mike C

    Mike C, don’t you find the makeup ruins the kissing experience? Like if you kiss her cheeks you taste foundation/blush, if you kiss her eye lids you taste eye shadow and if you kiss her lips you taste lip stick? All of these thinks taste horrible.

    Good questions. I’d say I’m referring more to eye-makeup and face make-up then lip makeup. I don’t like the feel or taste of lips with lipstick….maybe just a bit of gloss but not full on lipstick..yuck.

    I don’t really kiss her cheeks or eye lids as part of sex. Let me expand here. I may be a bit different from some of the guys here, certainly Ted D. I can’t even fathom the notion of having sex just so I can get to the cuddling/afterglow part. Don’t get me wrong…I have an affectionate side…but there is my affectionate side, and then there is my “I want to fuck” side. The two sides don’t really mix. Kissing cheeks, or eyelids, or nose is when I feel affectionate or when I want to display affection. I don’t need any make-up for that. But when I am feeling sexual/want to fuck I am going to be focused on other bodyparts.

  • LJ

    Also there’s the issue of sweat to consider. Sweat + makeup = clogged pores. But then again some women wear makeup to the gym so who knows :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But then again some women wear makeup to the gym so who knows

      Yeah, I really don’t get this. I mean, I guess it’s OK if you’re lifting or doing the namby pamby elliptical routine, but makeup during a spin class would be a nightmare. If I were a single women cruising at the gym I’d go for some light powder and waterproof mascara, at most. Anything more would be terrible for the skin!

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Thank you Ramble.

  • Mike C

    What about sex in the morning? Do you want her to go put makeup on first?

    Logistically, this isn’t even an option. I’m not a morning person so M-F, I barely have time to get to work on time let alone have sex, and on the weekends I am a night owl. Hypothetically, the answer would be yes. Simply put, men are visual, and I am probably much more visually stimulated than the average man. I find the made up look visually stimulating. If sufficient visual stimulation is lacking, then it will have to be made up a different way. Either the dick eventually gets hard or it doesn’t. The bigger picture question is how much effort should the woman put into sexually turning on her man. This is likely to become an issue in any really longer-term relationship and I mean several years to decades. Susan herself has remarked about women her age who don’t have sex with their husbands. They are most likely not sexually desirable to their husbands. That isn’t a judgement, but a simple state of fact. If the dick can’t get hard from a certain visual image, it can’t get hard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan herself has remarked about women her age who don’t have sex with their husbands. They are most likely not sexually desirable to their husbands. That isn’t a judgement, but a simple state of fact.

      You are wrong about that. To be clear, I only really know about one friend’s case. Her husband is chomping at the bit for sex with her. She’s actually 7 years older than he is, and still is far more attractive. He has definitely let himself go.

      My internist once told me that her female patients complained to her of husbands with low sex drive, but I don’t know any of the particulars.

  • pvw

    @MikeC:

    what if hypothetically that “look” is more of a sexual turn-on for him? The bigger picture question here which actually ties into some bigger themes some of which would use terminology that sends Susan into a tizzy is SHOULD A WIFE do things with the clear intent of PLEASING her husband….following what his preferences are, or should she simply follow exactly her own wishes and he just has to accept that?

    Me: He is turned on by my very existence :) ! Putting aside the facetiouness, he likes my looks, personality, etc. He likes to admire my put together look, and in your hypothetical, if this were more of a turn on to him, I’d be willing to work with it, but I would raise some concerns, though. The most important, wearing “the look” to bed, I’d be more likely to get stains on the sheets and pillow cases. I’d be looking to compromise, ie., wear the look when I get home but wear it longer, but take it off before going to bed. Or do more special occasions where I put together the look at home but at a sexier level, clothes, etc., but just for him and not to go out.

  • Mike C

    pvw,

    Thanks for the reply. I’m going to drill her a bit…please don’t take it personally

    Putting aside the facetiouness, he likes my looks, personality, etc.

    I like my fiancee’s personality A LOT. An absolute ton, especially when she is in one of her bubbly, whimsical moods. That said, that part doesn’t get the dick hard.

    I’d be willing to work with it, but I would raise some concerns, though. The most important, wearing “the look” to bed, I’d be more likely to get stains on the sheets and pillow cases.

    Interesting way to put that…..”that you would be willing to work with him”. Just curious, hypothetically speaking, what would you consider a higher priority, his level of sexual excitement or the prospect of getting stains on the sheets and pillow cases. To be sure, there are some reasonable lines here. I wouldn’t expect a woman to bark like a dog, if that got a guy going, but wearing makeup seems pretty reasonable.

    Ramble is hitting on the same note I am which is the question of male sexual excitement versus female convenience/preference. Which takes precedence? This is the sort of real issue a relationship can encounter over time. And it is the sort of thing that can lead to negative consequences in the most extreme cases.

  • LJ

    @ Mike C — I agree with the idea of looking good for your partner, doing things they like, etc.

    I think, though, that I would start to worry if my partner had a hard time being attracted to me unless I was wearing makeup.

  • LJ

    (Especially if I was planning to be with them a long time. I’m guessing 10 years from now I’ll look less hot with makeup than I do now without).

  • Ramble

    I think, though, that I would start to worry if my partner had a hard time being attracted to me unless I was wearing makeup.

    Why so black and white.

    What about this scenario:
    LJ: [after a long day at work, LJ is slumming in sweats, hair back in in unkempt ponytail, no makeup and eating leftover Chinese from the container...and it looks like some of that Chinese made its way onto the sweats] Hey John (that is your BFs name in this scenario), do you think I am pretty [she says facetiously, knowing how she currently looks]
    LJBF: Of course.
    LJ: Really. You don’t think I look kinda crappy.
    LJBF: Oh, well, your clothes, hair and makeup are not great, but you are still a pretty girl
    LJ: (Aww, he is so sweet) So, you wouldn’t care if I dressed like this all the time?
    LJBF: I wouldn’t say that.
    LJ: But, I mean, if I was looking like this, but feeling horny, you would still be up for it?
    LJBF: Well, if I was horny, and you were available, even in your current state, I am sure I could make it work.
    LJ:But you would prefer if I made myself up and looked really hot?
    LJBF: Of course.
    LJ: Oh, OK.

    What about that scenario? Not black and white, but not all that complicated either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Your Chinese takeout example is ridiculous and extreme. It’s not about women “not making an effort.” You have no idea how much time and energy women put into looking groomed! You’re always focusing on women being slobs and letting themselves go. It’s tiresome.

  • pvw

    @MikeC:

    Just curious, hypothetically speaking, what would you consider a higher priority, his level of sexual excitement or the prospect of getting stains on the sheets and pillow cases.

    Me: I’d consider them to be of equal importance…find a middle of the road compromise so that each one of us has our needs met. But that would require honest, open communication and a willingness for each of us to want to work to meet the needs of the other…., which we already have.

  • Ramble

    (Especially if I was planning to be with them a long time. I’m guessing 10 years from now I’ll look less hot with makeup than I do now without).

    That is why it is important to get, and give, as much hot sex as you can now. These are the hottest years of your life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That is why it is important to get, and give, as much hot sex as you can now. These are the hottest years of your life.

      It’s very interesting how different the comments of unmarried vs. married people are. Neither my husband nor I are as hot as we once were, but we’re both as attracted as we ever were. Our sex life in our 50s is not materially different from our 30s. I will admit that the “never miss a day, three times on Sunday” 20s has not been sustained.

  • Mike C

    Me: I’d consider them to be of equal importance…

    Thanks, I find this a fascinating response.

  • http://Secretly Iggles

    @ Hope:

    My husband was one of a handful of guys who told me I was “hot.” Most of the time people told me I looked “cute.” I’d rather have a guy who likes me au naturale, since that’s what I prefer myself.

    +1

    I don’t wear much makeup either and my bf loves how I look. Although, I guess it’s possible he thinks I wearing makeup when I’m not (since most women do) :lol:

    @ Sassy:

    I think that racial preferences can affect the 1-10 ratings that are ascribed to people. White men love me, I can definitely say that for sure. I know that black men like me as well. I’m not so sure how Asian men would rate me, considering that I haven’t come in contact with very many of them.

    I see. That makes sense.

    In the larger sense, this points out how subjective rating 1-10 is since everyone has their own opinions on who’s the “hottest”, which skews the whole scale…

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Susan herself has remarked about women her age who don’t have sex with their husbands. They are most likely not sexually desirable to their husbands. ”

    Yeah but they are in their 50s so the sex drive is considerably lowered anyway. If neither partner feels panged by sex drive then what is the use of having sex or the use of doing any thing to get that sex drive back? At that age there are a lot more important and enjoyable things in life than sex.

    Interesting how you compartmentalize affection/sex and the natural or made up look accordingly. I think I kind of do the same but its reversed. When I’m “put together” I feel attractive but not sexual. When I’m completely natural and naked, I feel sexual. I know some people wear costumes and all sorts of strange get ups for sex and it turns them on, makes them feel more sexual and ramps up the excitement, but for me it would do the complete opposite. Any sort of artificiality in the bedroom turns me off. In fact, the best sex for is outside in nature. Secluded area of course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yeah but they are in their 50s so the sex drive is considerably lowered anyway.

      Not so! I keep asking my husband when these flames will subside to embers, but it hasn’t happened yet. I have little doubt we’ll be rocking the van at 90 if we both live that long.

  • Damien Vulaume

    “He is turned on by my very existence”

    I hope you realize that male sexual arousness is at times a bit more demanding than that….

    “Its not so binary. There is a middle ground (…) People aren’t turned on all the time at home and sex isn’t the only thing we do there. When its time for that, whatever it takes to arouse those feelings can be done.”

    Absolutely.

    “The bigger picture question is how much effort should the woman put into sexually turning on her man. This is likely to become an issue in any really longer-term relationship and I mean several years to decades.”

    For sure, and a potential deal breaker in the end. But you can also turn it the other way around and wonder what kind of effort you yourself can do to find the moment and the way she is most willing to make love with you. Having sex with your girl at a moment when she’s doing it because she just wants to be nice to you is never something satisfactory for either side.

  • Mike C

    Yeah but they are in their 50s so the sex drive is considerably lowered anyway.

    In the examples Susan gave though, the women were complaining about the lack of sexual interest/activity from their husbands so there must be some level of drive otherwise why complain. I can’t speak to the sexual drive of a 55-year old man being 38 myself although 38 is definitely down from say 22-25.

    If neither partner feels panged by sex drive then what is the use of having sex or the use of doing any thing to get that sex drive back?

    Assuming that hypothetical, I would be inclined to agree. I know for myself I absolutely intend to go on testosterone replacement at some age for many reasons beyond maintaining a certain level of sex drive.

    When I’m “put together” I feel attractive but not sexual. When I’m completely natural and naked, I feel sexual. I know some people wear costumes and all sorts of strange get ups for sex and it turns them on, makes them feel more sexual and ramps up the excitement, but for me it would do the complete opposite. Any sort of artificiality in the bedroom turns me off.

    Different people have different preferences. This discussion is actually a great example of why it is important to assess sexual compatibility OR AT THE VERY LEAST gauge one partner’s willingness to do what the other partner would like within reason.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I know for myself I absolutely intend to go on testosterone replacement at some age for many reasons beyond maintaining a certain level of sex drive.”

    What reasons are those? And aren’t their risky side effects involved? I know there is with estrogen replacement.

    “Different people have different preferences. This discussion is actually a great example of why it is important to assess sexual compatibility OR AT THE VERY LEAST gauge one partner’s willingness to do what the other partner would like within reason.”

    Yep, I could never be with someone who watches porn, especially the type of porn that I hear is out there now. Educational videos about techniques is fine, we could watch them together, Mantak Chia has been helpful, but those are not gratuitous and fake.

  • LJ

    @ 6:36 Ramble – I wouldn’t find that unreasonable in the slightest, but it sounded like Mike C seemed to be talking about a different scenario. If my man couldn’t get it up unless I was wearing mascara, then, yeah … I’d be worried.

  • Ramble

    I could never be with someone who watches porn

    What percentage of non-religious men have never watched porn?

    0?

  • Ramble

    Without knowing Mike personally, I am guessing he is capable of getting an erection for a girl that is not wearing make-up. I believe that he was making a point about preferences and effort.

  • pvw

    @ MikeC: Thanks, I find this a fascinating response.

    Me: No problem; what do you find fascinating about it?

    @DV: I hope you realize that male sexual arousness is at times a bit more demanding than that….

    Me: I know it can be, but I know for him, just thinking about all the things he likes, loves and enjoys about me can get him rather excited….so to speak!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I know it can be, but I know for him, just thinking about all the things he likes, loves and enjoys about me can get him rather excited….so to speak!

      This is my experience as well – my husband’s arousal does not appear to be very dependent on any particular look or “staging.” In fact, there are times when I have to say, “Not now, I’m gross!” e.g. after working out or gardening. He loves it when I change things up, but he has never actually requested a certain look or uniform for sex.

      I’ve been thinking about when I find my husband sexiest – I adore how he looks in a suit, and often would like to delay his departure in the morning – but I can also hold that thought until he’s home and in jeans.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sometimes a guy will say he doesn’t want you to go through the effort of putting on make-up or looking nice because it is a lot of effort and he doesn’t want to see demanding.

    Just a thought.

    I think girls wearing pajamas outside is utterly ridiculous.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I could never be with someone who watches porn”

    “What percentage of non-religious men have never watched porn?”

    I didn’t say “never watched” I said “watches”. When I was a teen I also watched some porn. I’m grown now.

    “I think girls wearing pajamas outside is utterly ridiculous.”

    No more ridiculous than all the guys I see with their underwear showing.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Ramble:
    “What percentage of non-religious men have never watched porn?”

    You’re kidding here, right? Some of those religious guys are the most hypocritical, refrained and confused ones when it comes to sex. I bet they are among the biggest (closet, of course) “buyers” of the porn industry, sex shops, street walkers, etc.
    As for porn: A guy in a relationship watching porn by himeslf manifestly has a huge problem with his sexual life with his girlfriend. That in turns means: Either get out of that relationship or either sit down with his woman and honestly sort out those issues with her. Hypocrisy in a couple, especially when it comes to sex, has never made for healthy, long lasting relationships.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Sassy–”A lot of men today seem to have higher pitched tenor speaking voices.”

    I’ve noticed quite a few women speaking in what seems to be unnaturally low-pitched voices..oddly enough, in several cases, to their kids.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “You’re kidding here, right? Some of those religious guys are the most hypocritical, refrained and confused ones when it comes to sex. I bet they are among the biggest (closet, of course) “buyers” of the porn industry, sex shops, street walkers, etc.”

    You’re right. They are.

  • Ramble

    I didn’t say “never watched” I said “watches”.

    OK. What percentage of grown men never watch porn?

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “OK. What percentage of grown men never watch porn?”

    Don’t know and don’t care. My man doesn’t and that’s all that matters to me.

  • ForeverBeta

    Just to inject some humor into the conversation, here’s a good standup comedy clip describing how a woman goes through a good supply of men while young, but then it runs out as they get older:

    http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/scrf17/shorties-watchin–shorties-not-so-picky-anymore

  • Stickwick

    @ Damien: “Then it must be in Italy or Croatia…”

    Why, how culturally insensitive of you. I can’t speak about Italy, but at least in Croatia men are still men.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    The Culture Wars!
    What did our Franc say about Italian and Croatian men?

  • J

    I wore it around my BF one day and he said he’s “not a makeup person,” which could mean a number of things but I took at face value.

    A lot of men don’t care much for make-up. My DH doesn’t seem to mind a litttle bit, tastefully applied, but he has always preferred me without it.

    Until then, I’ll probably wear makeup to job interviews and see where it takes me.

    A bit of makeup can be used to give you a polished, professional look especially if you wear dresses to work.

  • Ramble

    Personally, I would find it quite hurtful if my husband requested that I leave makeup on for sex. It seems halfway to a brown paper bag, lol.

    Whoa, whoa. Wait. You’re saying that if your husband had been just slightly different than what he is (i.e. loving the natural look) and liked you in make up, then you would be offended?

    For instance, you guys are 26 and getting back from a party where you were a shining star, and you immediately kick off the heels and go to the bathroom to start cleaning off your make up and Mr Walsh comes in…

    Mr W: Baby. Baby! [He comes into the bathroom and stands behind you. He wraps his arms around with his arms crossing over each other as his head nuzzles into yours] Leave it on.

    [He then looks at you via the mirror with a devilish grin. He starts walking away and grabs you by the hand to lead you to the bedroom]

    ==============================

    You’re saying that at this point you would be offended? He is not doing this every night, but, yeah, sure, sometimes he wants to wreck something pretty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You’re saying that at this point you would be offended? He is not doing this every night, but, yeah, sure, sometimes he wants to wreck something pretty.

      Oh, I like that “wreck something pretty.” Of course I wouldn’t mind, that’s a sexy scenario. I just mean that I would be offended if my husband indicated he needed me in makeup to get a boner. I get that men are visual, but I’m grateful that my husband thinks I am attractive in my natural state.

      This is something that couples figure out as part of assessing compatibility.

  • J

    My internist once told me that her female patients complained to her of husbands with low sex drive, but I don’t know any of the particulars.

    Sadly, I hear a lot of that from women my age. Age, stress and health issues all take a toll on some men. A friend of mine’s husband had a heart attack over the holidays; she expects this to be the end of her sex life (which was previously sporadic anyway).

  • Jackie

    Ramble writing fan-fiction about the ‘shipping of Susan + Mr. HUS =
    Sweetest comment of 2013 so far. :mrgreen:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Jackie, I’m so glad to see you!

      Haha, Ramble tries to be a hardass, but we all know he’s just a sweetie and a mush at heart. That fanfic was definitely sexy – it could easily have been a scene in 50 Shades.

  • Ramble

    Your Chinese takeout example is ridiculous and extreme.

    The person I directed it towards did not think so. And we both use extreme examples to make a point. Either way, the point of the story (other than being kinda fun) was that her boyfriend thought she was pretty regardless of what she wore. But that when he saw her in nice things, he thought it was nice.

    You have no idea how much time and energy women put into looking groomed!

    I am not a blind virgin.

    You’re always focusing on women being slobs and letting themselves go.

    Susan, before my recent hiatus, I made an effort to pepper as many of my comments as possible with positive portrayals of girls and women in an attempt to help lurkers feel more comfortable here and, hopefully, provide some balance to any possible misogyny that might get communicated by any of the male commenters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I appreciate your efforts to make lurkers feel comfortable. Truly, I do – you know it’s been an issue at HUS. I didn’t realize you had taken it to heart. I apologize for snapping at you.

  • Ramble

    Sweetest comment of 2013 so far.

    Hopefully it will go over better than the previous story.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “You have no idea how much time and energy women put into looking groomed!”

    Too damn much. And it costs an arm and a leg too. Are men going to pay for that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And it costs an arm and a leg too. Are men going to pay for that?

      Well they’re paying for dates most of the time, so the answer is I don’t think so.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Sadly, I hear a lot of that from women my age. Age, stress and health issues all take a toll on some men. A friend of mine’s husband had a heart attack over the holidays; she expects this to be the end of her sex life (which was previously sporadic anyway).”

    She should put her foot down and just outline a schedule for sex. She needs to let him know that a sexless marriage is totally unacceptable and if he doesn’t provide, she’ll find someone who will. She can still “be there for him” as a caregiver, but she’s got certain needs that have to be met.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She should put her foot down and just outline a schedule for sex. She needs to let him know that a sexless marriage is totally unacceptable and if he doesn’t provide, she’ll find someone who will

      Ouch, that’s pretty harsh after a heart attack. I do generally support either party requiring sex as a condition of staying married, but when illness strikes, compromise is appropriate.

      I’ve shared the story here before of my friend who had a mastectomy. Her husband began insisting on sex in total darkness and when they went to couples therapy he blurted “I signed on for a wife with two tits!” He left her shortly thereafter. That is not OK in my book.

  • Jackie

    8-)

    Thanks, Susan! In the words of Gen. MacArthur,
    I shall return.
    :D
    (Hopefully in time for the Girls liveblog!)

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    I’ve seen harsher demands and heard shriller whines from husbands towards their wives after pregnancy. Sure, there’s a recovery period after a heart attack, but at some point he’s going to have to pleasure his wife or she’s within her rights to get it elsewhere. No ifs and or buts about it. OK maybe a few butts.

    It can be done discreetly and without breaking up the marriage so as not to hurt a loving husband.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It can be done discreetly and without breaking up the marriage so as not to hurt a loving husband.

      NO! I would definitely not condone adultery here. Get yourself a good vibrator.

  • Ramble

    That is not OK in my book.

    Or, in anyone else’s.

    BTW, I thought that what was said in therapy was private?

    On a slightly related note, I told an early GF something very private once and quickly found out that she had told her mother. My whole view of her changed after that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      BTW, I thought that what was said in therapy was private?

      Well, this was a good friend telling me why her husband wanted a divorce…

      On a slightly related note, I told an early GF something very private once and quickly found out that she had told her mother. My whole view of her changed after that.

      My poor daughter – her suitors are terrified of winding up on the blog. It does not happen, but they often fear it will.

  • Ramble

    @332

    Why did you snap? My earlier “Chinese Food” story was pretty light-hearted and meant to highlight the idea that even when a girl is nesting and slumming it, it does not mean that her man no longer thinks she is attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My earlier “Chinese Food” story was pretty light-hearted and meant to highlight the idea that even when a girl is nesting and slumming it, it does not mean that her man no longer thinks she is attractive.

      Sorry, I totally misread that. I thought you were highlighting how inconsiderate she was in not appearing at her most attractive.

  • Ramble

    … her suitors are terrified of winding up on the blog

    Or possibly having their secrets shared in general.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    What does your daughter thing of this site Susan?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What does your daughter thing of this site Susan?

      She loves it and reads it religiously, including all of the comments. I protect her privacy, I never mention her stories, so she feels safe.

      And even after growing up with me for a mom, and 4 years worth of posts, she still will often say that a certain post really resonates for her.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    She’s not ewwed out by hearing about you and her dad’s sexual proclivities? That’s an issue with kids. We’d rather not know.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She’s not ewwed out by hearing about you and her dad’s sexual proclivities? That’s an issue with kids. We’d rather not know.

      Well, I would never give sexual details, which would definitely skeeze her out. I think she’s comfortable with the fact that her father and I have sex. In fact, both our kids tell us all the time how happy they are that our marriage is so good. They understand that sex is part of that.

  • Fifth Season

    Isn’t this kind of unspoken testing of one another in a potential romantic relationship the “wellspring of anguish and confusion” from which both the dating blame game and most romantic advice columns spring from?

    People don’t mind putting their profiles into explicit categories like “Dating,” “Relationship,” and “Casual Encounter” on internet dating sites. And yet saying you’re looking for commitment early on in reality is “emotional promiscuity”? Some of us are tired of waiting for Mr./Ms. Right and want to be upfront about investing in a promising relationship (i.e., after getting to know someone for a while to make a good guess on how compatible their minds and attitudes will be with ours). I don’t believe that most of us who are have become blinded by waiting too long. But according to this, honesty in this area will only earn suspicion and/or outright rejection, even if we have neither malicious intentions or desperation-fuelled attitudes.

    Anyone who has heard of the “little red-haired girl” from the “Peanuts” comic strip has heard of an example of what happens when the desires of both partners in a potential romantic relationship aren’t made explicit and appropriately catered for. The “little red-haired girl” was based on an old flame of the comic strip artist’s whom he dated for 3 years and proposed to before she revealed that she was already engaged. It broke his heart and so the “little red-haired girl” remains a famous embodiment of his anguish to this day.

  • Cooper

    @Susan #344

    That’s really sweet!

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Ramble:

    I didn’t say “never watched” I said “watches”.

    OK. What percentage of grown men never watch porn?

    What percentage of men watch porn when partner is on the same room?

    If your are going to masturbate, this is uncomfortable. And being uncomfortable translates to no erection.

    Before someone notes, I’m not/em> asking that What percentage of men watch porn with partner. That is different question.

    The Rebound Girlfriend:

    Well, I use text — not video.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @Kari Hurtta; Severe HTML screwup!

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @Kari Hurtta; Retrying…

    Ramble:

    I didn’t say “never watched” I said “watches”.
    OK. What percentage of grown men never watch porn?

    What percentage of men watch porn when partner is on the same room?
    If your are going to masturbate, this is uncomfortable. And being uncomfortable translates to no erection.
    Before someone notes, I’m not asking that What percentage of men watch porn with partner. That is different question.

    The Rebound Girlfriend:

    Don’t know and don’t care. My man doesn’t and that’s all that matters to me.

    Well, I use text — not video.

    / Kari Hurtta

    [ Kari Hurtta can be removed. ]

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ Kari Hurtta: This is reference to comment @ Ramble (January 3, 2013 at 7:43 pm)

    Kari Hurtta:

    [ Kari Hurtta can be removed. ]

    Better rephrase: ☺
    Comment @ Kari Hurtta (January 4, 2013 at 1:40 am) can be removed.

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( Messing HTML again? )

  • collegeboy

    Maven7:Quote:
    > 6. Delaying intense intimacy, whether emotional or physical, is a woman’s best method of filtering out insincere and manipulative men.
    It’s the best method to betanize and fustrate normal guy. Cads will put her in rotation (as they have other chicks).

    I totally agree, with Maven7. If you have options, you can get your needs met, elsewhere and wait.

    One thing my father mentioned is that a good looking girl, that liked him, that he also liked ended up pregnant by a random hookup on Christmas (and divorced shortly after), because he put her on rotation, she flirted with him, he flirted with her (6 yrs), but never made it official or got intimate because doing so meant getting married (and that girl he liked wanted to explore her options). When she first suspected of being pregnant she went to see my father. My father had other pretty girls and he took advantage of that, but he regrets that he didn’t find any of the pretty women he had slept with marriage worthy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @College boy

      The sexes will always be at odds re the timing of sex. Women have a lot more to lose when they have sex, so it will always be prudent for them to delay it until the measure of the man has been taken. That does not mean, obviously, that all women are prudent or even interested in character.

      My father had other pretty girls and he took advantage of that, but he regrets that he didn’t find any of the pretty women he had slept with marriage worthy.

      As your father learned.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Ramble, telling a private thing to her mother is a sign of good relationship with her parents and long-term material. Also it often means evaluating the person as spouse potential with a trusted parent.

    I didn’t always think this way, especially since my own relationship with my parents is so terrible. When my husband discussed very private stuff (more than one thing) between us with his mom, at the beginning of our courtship/relationship, I was very offended. I even called him a mama’s boy because I had never seen a healthy, close parent and adult-child relationship.

    Eventually I realized that he can go to her for advice, and it’s way better than discussing it with a same-age peer who may not know what to do in a truly serious LTR. She has his best interests at heart, and she was on my side after seeing that I truly love him.

    Now after several years he no longer shares so much with his mother, but I have also developed a good relationship with her. She is wise and easy to talk to, and her knowing some off my private stuff doesn’t matter and can be helpful even.

    BTW, I am a little envious of Susan’s daughter for having such a great mother!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      BTW, I am a little envious of Susan’s daughter for having such a great mother!

      Awww, you’re sweet, Hope. My daughter does not tell me everything, but she does tell me a lot. I try to offer more empathy than advice, as I realize that I cannot be objective when it comes to her. When guys have asked if their business will wind up on the blog, she has assured them it will not. When they ask if she is close to me and tells me stuff, she acknowledges that she is, but that she will respect their privacy in any way they wish.

  • Höllenhund

    “I certainly do not believe in free speech on my private blog.”

    You know perfectly well that it isn’t. Private blogs aren’t publicly accessible. If you want to turn HUS into a private blog, make it password-protected.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You know perfectly well that it isn’t. Private blogs aren’t publicly accessible. If you want to turn HUS into a private blog, make it password-protected.

      You deliberately misconstrue my meaning. The blog is privately owned, and I get to control what happens here. There are very good reasons for me to do that, including legal, financial, strategic, and of course my own quality of life.

      When bloggers let nutjobs run wild and take over, blogs fail.

  • Ted D

    DV – No I’m afraid most of my education on what ‘woman want’ came from my single mother, my grandmother, and my aunts. Other than my grandmother, not one of them managed to stay in a healthy relationship for longer than about 10 years. My mother didn’t have any relationships with men to speak of until I was out of HS, and both my aunts were divorced before I was 14. The only consistant male role model in my life was my grandfather, but he told me at one point he did his best to stay out of my upbringing because he didn’t think it was his place to get involved. But he was glad I didn’t turn out to be a “sissy” because of the way my mother babied me as a young child.

    “And I’m sure you’ll soon find a noticeably improved level of “respect and affection” from your wife as well. But hey, nothing silly about it. We learn till the day we die. “

    I don’t feel silly because I’m still learning, I feel silly that I have to put so much effort into something as simple as using English to get a point across. We’ve gotten into “debates” over word usage, and I have pulled out a dictionary to prove a point. (Yes, I actually have a paper dictionary! Imagine that!) My wife is by no means uneducated, but her POV is so steeped in “feelings” that I swear she is speaking a different language. Almost like we speak the same words, but they have different meaning for each of us. I’m a very literal person, so I tend to take words at face value with no intended or implied definition. She tends to use words that are emotionally charged, but not necessarily the best word choice for the subject. It can get frustrating fast, so we’ve both learned to just separate and regroup later if things start getting heated.

    “As for porn: A guy in a relationship watching porn by himeslf manifestly has a huge problem with his sexual life with his girlfriend”

    Not necessarily. Perhaps he is higher drive and watches porn and rubs one out from time to time to keep his drive down and give his GF/Wife a break. As long as he and she are OK with it, I don’t see it as a problem.

    The wife and I actually watch porn together. Not often, but when the mood strikes us. We’ve never made it all the way through one in a single sitting, but we now can usually manage to last through three sex scenes before one of us folds and jumps the other. Who folds first varies.

    Mike C – “I may be a bit different from some of the guys here, certainly Ted D. “

    LOL maybe not that different. I don’t make a habit of kissing eye lids or cheeks during sex. I will admit that I go through periods where I want sex to be more “loving” and “emotionally fulfilling” and during those sessions there tends to be a lot of kissing, eye contact, and more ‘tenderness’ in general. Then, like you there are times when I really just want to fuck. (I’d like to add that THIS is a new change post Red Pill. I never used to allow myself to feel that way, because I used to believe that feeling like I wanted to simply “fuck” my wife made me a pervert. True story…) I would say that 90% of the time all sex leads to cuddling after, but there are a rare few times that we tire each other out so much that we just kinda pass out.

    “Logistically, this isn’t even an option.”

    I feel you on the weekday thing, but on the weekends I do my best to get one in the AM before we roll out of bed. I was never a fan of morning sex, but my wife likes to knock one out before we start the day on weekends, and as much as it takes me some effort to get going, I rarely have any complaints afterwards. Of course, this means no makeup and pre-shower, so there isn’t much kissing LOL. In fact, we tend to go for positions that don’t have us face to face, mostly because at that point we both have morning breath and haven’t showered. (sorry for the TMI…) Anyway, if we didn’t knock two out on the weekends, our weekly count would be substantially lower.

    PVW – “ I know it can be, but I know for him, just thinking about all the things he likes, loves and enjoys about me can get him rather excited….so to speak!”

    I react the same way just thinking about my wife sometimes. In fact, I’d say it is a regular occurrence, and part of what keeps my sex drive revving. And no, it doesn’t necessarily even have to be thoughts of sex, although I will fully admit that the line of thought often ends there…

    Susan – “My poor daughter – her suitors are terrified of winding up on the blog. It does not happen, but they often fear it will.”

    ROFL! Sounds like a great deterrent to me. Maybe I will roll a blog of my own. :P

  • Tomato

    “Too damn much. And it costs an arm and a leg too. Are men going to pay for that?”

    I know men that expect their dates to look great all the time and then whine over the time it takes for their dates to look great! There is no pleasing some people.

  • Cooper

    “ROFL! Sounds like a great deterrent to me. Maybe I will roll a blog of my own. ”

    Guy: your *Dad* is *TED D*!!! … *runs for hills*

    Lmao

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus
  • Ramble

    Ramble, telling a private thing to her mother is a sign of good relationship with her parents and long-term material.

    We had been dating for well over a year when I revealed this thing to her. She understood that it was not to be shared with anyone. When I confronted her she cared little about my feelings and a lot about hers. Granted, she didn’t realize that when she was making her defense, but that was the case.

  • Iggles

    @ Ted D:

    “As for porn: A guy in a relationship watching porn by himeslf manifestly has a huge problem with his sexual life with his girlfriend”

    Not necessarily. Perhaps he is higher drive and watches porn and rubs one out from time to time to keep his drive down and give his GF/Wife a break. As long as he and she are OK with it, I don’t see it as a problem.

    Yeah, I also have no problem with that. I would only be upset if my partner was addicted to porn. In that case, instead of being an additional sexual outlet porn would replace intimacy with me.

    I guess it’s a question of possessiveness. I am very possessive of my lover’s body, but I don’t think fully owning another person’s sexuality is realistic. We all find other members of the opposite sex attractive. That’s natural. We all have sexual fantasies. That’s natural as well. As a monogamous person I draw the line at engaging in sexual activity with another person, though thinking about another person during sex is ALSO beyond the pale in my opinion.

  • Ted D

    Iggles – “I guess it’s a question of possessiveness. I am very possessive of my lover’s body, but I don’t think fully owning another person’s sexuality is realistic. We all find other members of the opposite sex attractive. That’s natural. We all have sexual fantasies. That’s natural as well. As a monogamous person I draw the line at engaging in sexual activity with another person, though thinking about another person during sex is ALSO beyond the pale in my opinion.”

    You and I are pretty close on this one then. Notice I said that the wife and I watch porn together. I don’t watch it alone, and niether does she. (she admitted that porn isn’t that big a draw for her to watch alone anyway. She gets riled up watching it with me, but she claims it does very little for her if she watches it solo.)

    I’m VERY much a proponent of “mate ownership” and have said so here. We view it as mutual stewardship: We both keep possession of our bodies (of course) but we are now keeping them safe and sound for each other as well as for ourselves. Sexually speaking, we now own each other’s sexuality, which means although I own and control my body, I’m technically keeping my sexuality under ‘control’ for her.

    This is why cheating is not only a moral issue to me, it is stealing as well. I can’t simply go and have sex with any woman I want, because I already agreed to “give” that to my wife. If I were to have an affair, I’m not only breaking my vows, I’m stealing HER sexuality and giving it to someone else. I offered it to her and she accepted. It is no longer mine alone to do with as I please.

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  • INTJ

    @ Sassy

    Based off of my experiences with men, I can easily say that White men prefer me more than most other males of different races. I guess my looks are attractive enough to garner lots of their attentions. The interesting thing is that I also seem to attract more white males with fairer features than not (paler skin, lighter hair, lighter eyes). The man I’m dating has blond hair, pale skin, and some of the most amazing golden hazel eyes I have ever seen in my life. I guess things balance out, genetically speaking.

    They could just be self-selecting for high social status.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Ted:
    My wife is by no means uneducated, but her POV is so steeped in “feelings” that I swear she is speaking a different language

    Knowing “international” smile here. … She must do indeed, as mine does, otherwise she wouldn’t be called a woman…. but that’s what makes all the “beauty” about that man/woman difference… boring otherwise.
    I would never want to spend the rest of my life with a bunch of best budddies eternally wondering what went wrong with their gf, wives,etc. You got the picture. When taken from a “neutral” male’s perspective, women are fascinating, and they will always “reward you” for that “understanding”.
    Some women can be awful, others can be wonderful, and at times awfully different than us, yet always be the most courageous and loyal partners if they put all their trust and love in you. As little as I know about women as of today, I can tell you that some of those “decalogue” rules invariably work like a charm: Respect them, share their emotional intelligence, and that is already a huge hurdle out of the way. The rest is much more complicated, of course… The long winding road.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Ramble, if you specifically told her not to tell anyone else, that is different. I think it’s also different for the beginning of a relationship vs. having been together for a year.

    Susan, the lack of objectivity is precisely why your counsel is golden. Her friends may not think that far ahead when giving her advice, but you want grandkids! :P

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    @ Susan

    You are in close regular contact with 50 single women? How would you describe their behavior in variance to this post?

    Not single women. Just women. Now, think about what you’re asking. You’re asking me to use your list as the Great Describer of women’s behavior and then detail the uncountable ways real people deviate from it. This is a bit like dropping a pin on Google Maps where Susan Walsh lives then asking me to describe how to get to 50 other women’s houses. Even if I were describing just one woman this would take more time, energy and treasure that I care to spend commenting on your blog, given your propensity to berate, mock, ridicule or otherwise shame those who have non-compliant ideas.

    Or was this just another attempt at a slapdown? You write of the importance of being known but make others jump through barbed hoops for your own purposes. This is not the character of a person who gives good relationship advice.

    I wrote earlier:

    Relationship is not about finding a partner that fits and then living a static life. It’s about finding someone who can tolerate our shit and can respond well to the changing dynamics of life and relationships.

    To this you responded:

    I find this a very sad and unfortunate description of what relationships are about. IMO, the greatest human desire is to be known. It is the desire for real connection, which implies being accepted once we are known. Perhaps even loved.

    What you yourself find sad and unfortunate probably has more to do with an over-investment in yourself and your own ideas than anything else. In reality, good relationships are far less about shared self-expression, as a child might desire, and far more about our readiness, willingness and an ability to steer and navigate well the changing dynamics of adult life with another. Shared values and the capacity to uphold those values together is where the connection you speak of is made.

    Seeking someone to “tolerate our shit” is a very one-sided and narcissistic approach to relating to others. I don’t know what you mean by “responding well” to changing dynamics

    I agree that framing this the way I did – i.e. “tolerate our shit” – makes the truth of it seem rather rough but it is still the truth. No-one is perfect, and each of us – psychologically and emotionally – is the sum total of all the powerful things said and done to us – which is our “shit”, so to speak. What we feel as a “connection”, or “our desire to be known” isn’t any different in substance to “tolerating our shit”. What we seem to respond to is someone who wants to not only know us, which you suggest, but who will accept us and love us anyway. We probably agree in substance but you tripped yourself (again) on your bullwhip.

    I don’t know what you mean by “responding well” to changing dynamics, but I fear you mean that you seek women willing to tolerate various forms of emotional abuse.

    Oh my goodness. Will you please put your bullwhip away? If you don’t know what I mean, then ask questions. Don’t assume the worst and then presume these idiotic predictions of doom are correct. You’re not only missing the forest for the trees here but for the monsters you think live in them. Where the heart must be to enable this sort of misdirection is evidence of unsuitability to give relationship advice to others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacob Ian Stalk

      You made a claim that you know 50 women who do not behave in the way the post describes. I have no idea what this means. They like early and eager commitment? Enjoy supplication? Yet you now find yourself unable and/or unwilling to explain your comment. I’ll note that you are the only commenter in the entire thread who has made such a claim.

      You appear to be a commenter of the hit and run variety. I don’t mind drive-by’s, but could do without the snarky attitude. Then again, your CV makes clear that you’re likely to come here with your pistols cocked.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, if you specifically told her not to tell anyone else, that is different.

    Hope, I am curious, what if I did not specifically tell her not to tell anyone but obviously told her something deeply personal and only after dating her for well over a year, then what?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Ramble, I’m looking at it from a parent’s perspective now. If my son’s girlfriend told him something deeply personal but that could potentially affect their future, I’d want to know. And my mother-in-law knows my pregnancy-related medical history, even before we got married. There are HIPAA laws about such matters, but I was going to become part of the family.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “You made a claim that you know 50 women who do not behave in the way the post describes. I have no idea what this means. They like early and eager commitment?”

    I like it from a man I was really, really into.

    ” Enjoy supplication? ”

    A little bit never killed anybody.

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    “Yet you now find yourself unable and/or unwilling to explain your comment. ”

    My reasons were explained clearly enough. Oneupmanship and point-scoring are your games, not mine.

    “I’ll note that you are the only commenter in the entire thread who has made such a claim. ”

    This signifies nothing but the effectiveness of your silencing technique.

    “You appear to be a commenter of the hit and run variety.”

    Hit, maybe, but run? That makes no sense. On what basis can you claim that a commenter is running? I’m around, just not at your beck and call.

    Truth is, I read your posts regularly and actually appreciate most of what you have to say. I comment only when there’s a dead rat in the papal chamber that none of the courtesans seem to want to touch.

    “Then again, your CV…”

    Ahh, classic Susan. Passive-aggressive snark. I’ll stop if you will.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Jacob Ian Stalk:

    “I’ll note that you are the only commenter in the entire thread who has made such a claim. ”

    This signifies nothing but the effectiveness of your silencing technique.

    Yes. Generally if it is known that certain percent of comments are removed, claims that nobody else writes something proves nothing.

    This does not depend of that, what was claim.
    / Kari Hurtta

  • Tomato

    We’re never going to get that explanation, are we?

  • Zach

    @HanSolo

    Dude, go on more dates/sleep with more women. I also want a relationship (I guess my last one made me notice what I was missing), but going out with a lot of women and sleeping with some of them will temper that “overflow” you have. You’ll quickly find out that a lot of the women out there are not going to be the kind of girl you want to date (not knocking them as bad people, they’re just not compatible). You’ll also find out that some girls who appear great on the first date lose that luster by date three. These experiences quickly point out (or at least they do for me) that you should be pretty selective of who you give that love to, and when. I’d say at least 60-70% of the girls I see last 1 date and I never call them again, mostly because I can pretty clearly tell we’re not compatible. And I even kick to the curb the ones I know I could sleep with with a little more effort, b/c that doesn’t really interest me that much anymore. Once you understand how hard it is to find the right girl, I think it’ll be easier to not overwhelm every one you meet with emotion.

    @Jacob Ian Stalk

    You’re right, not every woman is the way Susan says they are. But in this case, I remind you of the saying “the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet”. In this case, Susan’s description is the way to bet, big time (hell, do it on margin for this one).

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  • http://bit.ly/Wq8f2L Ryan

    Confidence as far as speaking is concerned is the most attractive part as well as the strength of any conversation, whether one is addressing a group or a gathering, your friends or counterparts and most importantly the opposite sex, confidence is definitely the central part and thus paramount to a conversation.

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  • http://www.collegecashflow.net Lion

    “Only wounded birds fly into cages”

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  • Man

    It’s interesting. This is probably one of the most important articles I have ever read. It’s so simple:

    Men who actively search for commitment or long term relationships with women have low value to them.

    It’s funny. I should be perhaps revolted, but I am not. I have experienced this truth in my life for many, many years, especially through emotional pain. I just was taught all that feminist crap as an innocent boy that women are romantic, that they value chivalrous, gentle men, etc. and I was genuinely looking for romantic relationship and be happy forever since when I was around 18 years old I think.

    Then suddenly everything now makes sense, even though on an intellectual level I was already aware of some realities about the dating scene and women’s psyche.

    And I am not revolted. Only a little bit frustrated that I have wasted my youth (I am 38 now) watching hard core porn to medicate rejections, frustration and loneliness; which also sort of qualifies me as “loser” to most women. It happens so that the romantic girl I had in my dreams just doesn’t exist. It was the greatest of my illusions.

    This is just like one those things that women have a really hard time to get and understand about men, such as why men value virginity, for instance. They can understand it on an intellectual level, but never really accept it or grasp on an emotional level.

    Rantings apart, everything makes now perfect sense. I am just a little glad to know that after all it’s not so late for me to realize this. Thanks, Susan. Sometimes we need someone to tell us the truth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Man

      At 38 you’re in your prime! In fact, if you are willing to date women in their 30s, you are extremely well positioned. The fact that you are not enraged or revolted will make things much easier – many men feel such anger, betrayal and resentment that they find it hard to move forward with this knowledge.

  • Man

    @Susan:

    At 38 you’re in your prime! In fact, if you are willing to date women in their 30s, you are extremely well positioned.

    Thanks Susan. But I am afraid that I just realized I was a complete fool all these years and I am thinking about compensating for the “lost time” experimenting with the occasionally available pussy and who knows even act out some of my porn fantasies. Perhaps that qualifies as “revolt” to women? :) I am afraid Susan that the more I know about the truth, the more likely I will convert to a “cad”. :) I actually don’t. It’s not so easy to get free of years of brainwashing and flawed assumptions.

  • Man

    @Susan:

    The fact that you are not enraged or revolted will make things much easier – many men feel such anger, betrayal and resentment that they find it hard to move forward with this knowledge.

    I have been recollecting my thoughts on this and I think that I just won’t make the transition. I am just too tired and beaten up with all this. My very first passion in my young days was with a woman who used me to get her boyfriend to marry her. I have always had power struggles with women since then and only three girlfriends.

    I abused of hardcore porn and masturbation and I am now recovering of porn induced ED. This process of recovery/abstinence is encouraging me to socialize and actually approach women for the first time in my life. You can check some reports in the referenced journal.

    But I will never make the “alpha” type you often talk about and we hear so much in the media. I do not consider myself a beta, either, because I am not supplicating or servile in the sense of the words and I do stand up for my values. I do not like these categorizations, even though they help us to understand individual traits and behavior and the “alpha” and “beta” that is inside all of us. Feminists also have a very hard time with me.

    However what I mean is that it’s kind of written on my forehead that I am a “serious” or “romantic” guy. This just won’t change and I don’t feel like changing much after so much emotional suffering. I am reconciled with myself and I love myself as I am. I am also religious and so I am not going to take a step further to engage into casual sex, other than in a relationship.

    Last year I had found a special girlfriend, I feel in love with her and eventually we broke up, but also because she’s from another country, apart from me being to “eager to commit” I think. We have more or less the same religious beliefs as well. But I feel and know that’s also gone and I am looking for other girlfriend. But that also had a heavy psychological toll on me because it’s just difficult to find a good girlfriend (and one who is willing to commit to a guy who is eager to commit).

    I really don’t know if I am going to succeed. Perhaps my destiny is loneliness and solitude, unless I am “rescued” by some sympathetic or more kindhearted woman. I really don’t know. But I am just tired and psychologically beaten up with all this. So I think I am just giving up all this and will just continue with my life and goals as I always did.

    Sorry to disappoint you, Susan. Take care.

  • Idli Dosa

    “But I will never make the “alpha” type you often talk about and we hear so much in the media. ”

    Most men won’t. Thank god. Alphas are sociopathic criminals.

    Find a local Kundalini Yoga center in your area and begin practicing.
    THIS WEEK.

  • Man

    Find a local Kundalini Yoga center in your area and begin practicing.

    Thanks. I am not into Yoga but I do know what you’re talking about and if you read through my journal, what I am looking for has elements of white tantra one way or the other.

  • Man

    I have read this article over and over and also most of the comments. I think the most important “advice” here for men (and actually is applicable to women too) is no. 3:

    A hasty attempt to elicit commitment has a vibe of desperation about it.

    Like a used car salesman, he doesn’t want you to spend time looking under the hood, and he’s peevish if you want to think about the decision for a while. People with options tend to weigh them carefully, so rushing into a relationship implies a lack of options, and it carries the whiff of insecurity or fear.

    As far as women’s attitudes are concerned, there are a variety of factors which are sort of exposed in numbers 1, 2, 5, 6 and 7, but the one to my mind which plays a crucial role is no. 4:

    Women expect to have to compete for a male, winning him over with our feminine wiles and enticing him into exclusivity as we successfully navigate his high standards.

    Women do not want to be robbed of this opportunity to compete with other females. If there are no other females competing for him, a guy benefits from holding to his high standards in any case. Having low standards, or worse, none (like our friend in the comic above), is a turnoff to women.

    Men have a hard time grasping this, but it’s related to how they assess their own value with regard to their “competitors”. Even women who are not so attractive desire this, and I usually feel compassion for them, at the least. :)

    So all in all, I respect women’s need to feel appreciated, attractive and unique for what they are.

  • Jose

    These “tips” and “suggestions” elevate mind games to an art form. Too often we label people jerks or b*!@76ches, because they cannot or will not fit into an unrealistic fantasy of a relationship. Let’s re-create ourselves, to propose, make, share, and have a romantic way of being good for the both of us. Taking responsibility for one’s own neuroses and not blaming the other person (“you always _____” fill in the blank) are important. Thank you to the wise woman, who taught me about neuroses.

  • jen

    Very well written. I just went through a break up where he wanted a serious relationship, and i just wanted to casually date. Since day 1 i had to hold him back. Within the first few weeks he told me he was nervous about us having sex for the first time and just wanted to get it done and over with. After i turned him down, and continued to as he’d hint about it…as well as talk about more serious of a relationshi…he began to shut down, as if backing away would deprive me of what i wanted. Then he’d start up with the talk of having a fmilt and future again. I wish i had read this post sooner, or i would have passed it on to him, hopefully to give him insight on his next girlfriend. I’d do it now, but I’m afraid he’d take my friendliness as wanting to have babies again.

  • Denzel Hammet

    Hey,

    I am lost when it comes to relationships. Right now, a girl I’ve known for years, but never got to know is chatting me up and sending loads of texts. I wouldn’t just go for any girl, but what I like is that she doesn’t seem to be playing games. On the other hand, I have used much of my knowledge from websites like this to keep her keen.

    I’m not going to ask her to marry me, I don’t even know what she’s really like yet, but I’m certainly feeling butterflies. Perhaps there is no formula, but at the same time it’s fun to tease things out and also behave well. Being too honest is not good because it can be boring. If you have alot of pain in your life, don’t dwell on this. We all have pain, but it doesn’t have to be the focus. Focus on the here and now, the person in front of you.

    Also, fun is such an overlooked factor. It is fun to court and to tease and to seduce and to be seduced. I think my best advice to guys is to treat a girl as a tennis partner. You don’t hit the ball too easily because it’s boring. You don’t hit it too hard because then you’re a jerk. Also, learning text lingo and pop culture references is good because again it makes it fun and moves to a language accessible by both parties.

    Men, control yourself. A woman will show interest but if you immediately jump on her lap and act like a loser, you will lose her. Play it cool, don’t always text back, wait 24 hrs. if necessary between texts and phone calls.

    And if you do make a mistake, don’t beat yourself up, make a recovery and don’t make the same mistake again. Just tonight I moved too early and suggested going out when we had already agreed a first date. I recovered by playing it cool and then making it clear my calendar was full until the date we had originally agreed to.

    There is no formula people, but always, in all situations, play it cool. :)

    Denz