Hey guys, it’s my first time here. I’ve been dating my boyfriend for 9 months now and am a little unsure of whether to continue the relationship. I would really appreciate your opinion (sorry in advance, it’s a bit long!).
We met about 9 months ago at a bar, he was the perfect gentleman and we ended up taking a taxi together after the bar closed – first to my place and then he went to his (at the other end of town). Nothing happened that night but the day after he called me and asked me out. We went on 4 dates before he so much as kissed me and another 3 before we slept together (honestly, I was getting a bit impatient!).
He made the effort early on to introduce me to his friends and family and was very interested in getting to know the people close to me. We’ve pretty much spent every night together since March and a few months ago he bought a flat and asked me to move in with him – mainly because it’s cheaper and handier but he also said that we’d be able to spend more time together. I said yes and moved in a month ago.
In general everything is going great. Although he works a lot he always sets aside time for us to do something together, is very interested in me and my life and the sex is great. He’s very respectful towards me, and towards women in general, and everyone who knows him speaks extremely well of him. He has a large group of very good friends and is close to his family.
Sounds pretty perfect, right? The problem is I’m worried he’s too much of an alpha and to closed off emotionally for the relationship to work long term.
He’s 27 (I’m 26), very good looking and works in a high profile job. He’s been single for the past 5 years but before that he was in two steady relationships of about one and a half years each. He won’t discuss how many women he’s slept with (and doesn’t want to know my number either) but says his number isn’t unusually high and from what he’s said he seems to have spent more time dating than hooking up with random women.
When he was a teenager his father cheated on his mother and is now married to the woman he cheated with. His parents’ relationship is extremely bad (they literally don’t talk and his father wasn’t even allowed to attend graduations and birthdays). The divorce was very ugly and went on for a couple of years. During that time my boyfriend pretty much raised his siblings. He is very fatherly towards them and is extremely self reliant and independent.
Now to the problems:
Firstly, I’d been waiting for him to tell me he loves me for a while and a couple of weeks ago I gave up and said it first and he said it back. We had a discussion about it and he told me he’d never said it to a girl before and I told him it was very important to me to hear it on a regular basis.
Since then he hasn’t said it again (and neither have I). When I mentioned this he said recently he’d been feeling pressure to say it and that when he feels pressured he tends to back off and not do things. I understand this because I’m the exact same way but I feel that this shouldn’t apply if you really love someone.
The second issue is regarding marriage. Recently I asked him if he wanted to get married at some point and he said he didn’t think so. It has never been something he’s wanted although he doesn’t rule out that he will at some point. He’s not against serious relationships though and wants children.
I find this all a bit confusing since his actions imply that he is in love with me and he’s said he can see a future with me. I’m extremely in love with him but I don’t want to get stuck in a dead end relationship with someone that will never commit.
My guess is that his parents divorce has a lot to do with this and I’m hoping that given time he will open up to me more. But then again I’m worried I’m wasting my time on someone who will never give me what I need emotionally.
Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated!
Elise
Dear Elise,
I confess I almost didn’t post your letter because this is not a case where I feel confident in advising you to take one specific plan of action. However, I empathize very much with your dilemma, and I hate to see two people who care deeply for one another come apart if there’s a strong desire to be together. I am happy to share my thoughts and then open this up for the group to discuss in the Comment thread.
First, there are a great many things that sound wonderful about your guy. In fact, he pretty nearly meets the description of that elusive creature known as the benevolent, good-hearted alpha. Let’s take an objective look at the list of female attraction cues, and how he stacks up in your eyes:
ECONOMIC CAPACITY: Works hard, owns his own home.
SOCIAL STATUS: Cleared this hurdle in first meeting, as you left with him and shared a cab.
AGE: Peak attractiveness.
AMBITION AND INDUSTRIOUSNESS: Apparent both in career, and in taking responsibility for siblings.
DEPENDABILITY AND STABILITY: Provided this to his siblings during contentious divorce. Clearly reliable in his behavior towards you.
INTELLIGENCE: Demonstrated by his focus and achievement thus far.
COMPATIBILITY: Obviously highly compatible in most ways.
SIZE AND STRENGTH: Meets your criteria.
GOOD HEALTH (LOOKS): Meets your criteria.
LOVE AND COMMITMENT: ??? Essential, and dependent on the male’s ability to express and demonstrate these.
Obviously, out of all the female attraction cues as described by David Buss in The Evolution of Desire, you have only one concern. That your boyfriend either will not feel the kind of love and commitment you want, or that even if he does feel them, he will be unable to express those feelings in the way that you need to experience them. Buss:
Given the tremendous costs women incur because of sex, pregnancy and childbirth, it is reasonable for them to require commitment from a man in return. Resources can be directly observed, but commitment cannot be. Gauging it requires looking for cues that signal the likelihood of fidelity in channeling resources. Love is one of the most important cues to commitment.
Requiring love, sincerity and kindness is a way of securing a commitment of resources commensurate with the value of the resource that women give up to men.
It is natural and appropriate for you to expect that the man you love with commitment to demonstrate and express his emotional commitment to you regularly in return. Lacking that assurance makes you feel justifiably insecure, as you wonder about his long-term commitment to the relationship.
Next, let’s look at his emotional reticence. It sounds like he has been able and willing to demonstrate affection from the start – it’s commitment he struggles with. Given his family background, and his sharing his history so openly with you, it’s clear that his parents’ divorce was a pivotal experience during his formative years. He became the man of the house, substitute father to his siblings, undoubtedly a source of support for his mother, all while dealing with his own grief and anger over his father’s abandonment. I agree with you that this is the main issue in his attitude towards commitment.
A quick perusal of the robust research on the long-term effects of parental divorce confirms your suspicion. A comprehensive summary of the research on the long-term effects of parental divorce may be found here. Some key findings that relate to your situation:
1. Children of divorced parents are more likely than children of always-married parents to have more positive attitudes towards cohabitation and more negative attitudes towards marriage. When they leave home, they are two to three times as likely to cohabit and to do so earlier, especially if their parents divorced during their teenage years (Amato and Booth, 1997).
2. When parents divorce, their children’s attitudes about sexual behavior change. Children’s approval of premarital sex, cohabitation, and divorce rises dramatically, while their endorsement of marriage and childbearing falls (Jeynes, 2001).
3. The strongest consequences of marital disruption do not appear until offspring confront the challenges of early adulthood, and offspring with divorced parents have more problems forming and maintaining happy and stable intimate relationships (Amato, 2003).
4. Children of divorced parents fear being rejected, and a lack of trust frequently hinders a deepening of their relationship (Johnston and Thomas, 1996).
5. One study showed that individuals whose parents divorced were more likely than individuals whose parents remained married to believe that relationships were beset by infidelity and the absence of trust, and they were also more likely to believe that relationships should be approached with caution. (Weigel, 2007).
6. Adult male children of divorced parents show more ambivalence than men from intact families about becoming involved in a relationship though they invest more money and tangible goods in casual dating relationships (Jacquet and Surra, 2001).
7. One study reported that persons raised in divorced families have less positive attitudes towards marriage, and more positive attitudes towards divorce. This negative attitude about marriage leads to decreased commitment to romantic relationships, which in turn is related to lower relationship quality. (Cui and Fincham, 2010).
8. Adolescents who have experienced their parents’ divorces and remarriages may feel that marriage is unpredictable and unstable (Risch, Jodl, Eccles, 2004).
9. In her study of children of divorced parents from Marin County, California, Judith Wallerstein found that the children of divorced parents still had persistent anxiety about their chances of a happy marriage a decade after their parents’ divorce. This anxiety interfered with their ability to marry well: Some failed to form satisfying romantic ties, while others rushed impulsively into unhappy marriages (Wallerstein and Blakeslee,1996).
10. The evidence shows that “adult children of divorce who eventually wed are more likely to divorce than are adult children from intact families (Jacquet and Surra, 2001).
That’s all very discouraging, I know, but it does explain his outlook. I’m assuming you wish to marry and have children, not raise them as cohabitors. Indeed, the best reason for marriage is the raising of children. Most cohabitating relationships in the U.S. do not allow this:
What research shows is that cohabitating relationships in the United States tend to be fragile and relatively short in duration: less than half of cohabiting relationships last five or more years.Typically, they last about eighteen months.
Not surprisingly, partners in a cohabitating relationship are more likely to be unfaithful to each other than are married couples…The National Sex Survey (polling 3,500 people) reported that men in cohabitating relationships are 4 times more likely to be unfaithful than husbands and that women in cohabitating relationships are 8 times more likely to cheat than are wives.
In 2002 the CDC found that for married couples the percentage of the relationship ending after 5 years is 20%, for unmarried cohabitators the percentage is 49%. After 10 years the percentage for the relationship to end is 33% for married couples and 62% for unmarried cohabitators.
On the other hand, cohabitation obviously need not preclude eventual marriage. From the State of Our Unions:
Cohabitation is a common and popular form of romantic partnership for young adults today. Slightly more than 44 percent of single men, 20-29, agree with the statement that they would only marry someone if she agreed to live together first. Close to a third of the men in this study say that they have lived with someone in the past or are currently cohabiting with a girlfriend.
These men see living together as a way of avoiding an unhappy marriage and eventual divorce. This view is widely shared among people their age. Sixty-two percent of young adults agree that living with someone before marriage is a good way to avoid eventual divorce, according to last year’s Gallup survey for the National Marriage Project.
What you need to know is whether there is anything you can do to mitigate his fears or whether his attitude about marriage is permanent. Pressuring him now is likely to backfire – he’s already indicated as much. This is a very tough call, but here’s my advice:
You are in love with each other. That is not something to discard lightly. You live together, and his actions demonstrate deep feeling even if he is unable to make himself vulnerable by speaking the words you want to hear right now. I recommend establishing a period of time that you are willing to give this relationship, e.g. six months or a year.
During this time, remove all pressure from him to define what you have and where you’re headed. Do everything in your power to demonstrate your love, faithfulness and loyalty. Just Be. Be a couple in love. His reticence about marriage and commitment is understandable in light of his experiences. I do not know whether he can or wishes to get past it, and I suspect he doesn’t either. I suspect that the only way he can be reassured about relationships is witnessing his own working very, very well.
Your goal is not to change him, it is to demonstrate your reliability as a life partner. Do not lie about what you want. Don’t pretend you don’t want to marry one day. If at any point he tells you he has made up his mind definitively, take him at his word. If, at the end of the timeframe you’ve set aside, he is no more inclined to consider marriage, you will have to decide if you are willing to stay together on his terms.
This strategy is high risk and high reward. Leaving him now would result in less heartbreak overall, perhaps, but also preclude the possibility of happiness with the man you love. Your own level of risk aversion is a key consideration. Still, we are most likely to regret not doing something:
About 75 percent of respondents regret not doing something, with the top three slots taken by studying hard enough at school, not taking advantage of an important opportunity, and not spending enough time with friends and family. In contrast, only 25 percent of people regret doing something, such as making a bad career decision, marrying someone they didn’t love, or having a child at the wrong point in their lives.
If you walk away now, you’ll never know. Can you give him, and your relationship, some time?
Susan
{ 270 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 »
Sounds to me like he is giving enough emotion. Any more and she will head for the hills.
harsh truth:
It was a mistake to move in with him. Leave aside the fact that I am always against that. Even on Susan’s own terms it was a mistake to do so when you didn’t know where this was going or what his beliefs are. Now you know and the news is not good. He doesn’t want to get married (but might some day) and, much worse, he is fine with the idea of having kids without marriage or even any sense of permanence.
So all you can do now is wait around for him to change his mind, which is totally out of your control, or leave.
RE: “not letting you in,” that I would say should not bother you so much, since by every metric that matters save one, he has demonstrated that he is a good partner. If he were willing to marry you and keep on behaving the same way, I would say, let go of your girly expectation of florid love talk, if you can bear to.
But without a real commitment on his part, you are playing his game … in his frame, as they say.
All of these women sound like headaches.
“If at any point he tells you he has made up his mind definitively, take him at his word.”
This is what I’d strongly advise.
Regardless of whether or not she should have moved in, Elise did. As Susan hints she should not have confronted him on the three-little-word issue and should not have confronted him about marriage.
She is left not knowing whether he never wants to get married or whether he wants to be the one posing the question.
I agree with Susan, there is nothing wrong with this guy and nothing really wrong with this relationship. I would spend less time trying to psychoanalyze him or his background and more time being a good mate.
It’s a relationship, not therapy. Successful men are not especially empathetic; they do not often display their feelings. Or better, they display them in their actions, and so far, his actions have all been very positive and very expressive.
As a rule of thumb, if Elise wants to be a wife she should start acting like a wife. She says nothing about their everyday life, or about the household division of labor. Elise does not tell us what she does for a living, but if she wants to be a wife she can start taking charge of their home, making it a home and the like.
All told, the relationship sounds very solid. The man sounds like a keeper. Elise needs merely to act the role she wishes were hers.
He seems like a very phlegmatic, practical man. Whether this is the result of his parents’ divorce is both uncertain and irrelevant. It could very well be that he is displaying all the emotion he is ever going to display, and any attempt to turn him into Lord Byron will be met with a lot of passive-aggressive resistance.
You gave her good advice. HOWEVER, this is a relationship that should be moving towards marriage. If after six more months, it isn’t, I’d introduce him to a lower-wattage friend and ask him if he would recommend her to a friend of his [she says that tribe is numerous and devoted] who was more ebullient and less marriage-shy.
A man like this would probably comply with that request.
For the readers’ information, Stuart is a trained psychoanalyst who has moved away from therapy, as his blog, Had Enough Therapy?, would indicate. Still, his insights into the human psyche should not be overlooked.
OK, we had this same conversation in … I can’t remember which thread, the ladies–emphatically including Susan–all said that no girl should act like a wife until the ring is produced. Well, except for sex.
I wonder how this thread will play out …
That’s not correct. I stipulated cohabitation as the time for acting like a wife re doing chores especially for him. My objection was to doing them at his place or when you are not living together.
Still and all, this girl is taking a big risk. If she wants a marriage, how long should she stick around waiting for him to change his mind? If she doesn’t want a marriage or children, I agree, relationship sounds fine, stay.
His actions are speaking quite clearly:
“In general everything is going great. Although he works a lot he always sets aside time for us to do something together, is very interested in me and my life and the sex is great. He’s very respectful towards me, and towards women in general, and everyone who knows him speaks extremely well of him. He has a large group of very good friends and is close to his family.”
Men and women communicate so differently but the expectation is that men communicate like women. He is communicating, the way men do.
Sounds like she’s looking for a reason to dump him because she wants a wedding.
She ‘needs’ him to say he loves her, but she won’t say it herself?
If he’s not interested in her number, he probably has suspicions that it’s high.
Run, my boy. We got a mercenary here.
Unless Elise wants to end up the woman that breaks up with her boyfriend and he marries someone else, she needs to back off immediately.
1. Move out. It is clear that cohabitation isn’t getting you closer to marriage. In fact, it is worsing the situation with Elise acting crazy.
2. Continue to date casually, but set a time limit as to how long is acceptable before she demands a commitment.
3. A few years later, marry or break up. Move on.
She is over psycho analyzing the situation. The guy is relatively young in man years at 27. She is 26 and pushing 30 quickly, which is a different situation. She cannot wait, but he can.
She must ensure the success of the relationship, but she is blowing it. It is better to leave knowing an ultimatum is given than a mere breakup.
There’s a theory that boys whose mothers cheat on their fathers or otherwise ruin the marriage are more likely to have negative feelings toward women in general as they grow up. But what about the reverse – how do boys react when it’s the father who cheats and ruins the marriage like in this letter? Are they more likely to loathe their own gender? Are they still more likely to consciously and subconsciously punish women? Are there any studies on this?
Glad I stopped by today.
Susan, IMO this lady has an excellent opportunity that she might screw up because of this thing called female solipsism, which I know is a touchy subject. But allow me to explain.
More than one perfectly good woman has driven off a perfectly good man at this point because she doesn’t understand the nature of his psychology, after he has made the first steps toward commitment. He’s been a Bull Alpha for a while, and he’s considering the possibility of becoming a Wolf Alpha and raising a litter of pups. . . but only if he has the right mate. Otherwise, women are fungible. He knows he’s a catch, and he can discard her and not be any worse for wear.
What your reader must understand is that he is auditioning her. For the role of Wife. That’s the only real long term commitment he’s got left on the table, and if he has some brains — and apparently he does — then he’s going to be slowing things down and holding her up to serious scrutiny. While she’s picking out china patterns, he’s evaluating her genetics, her mental health, and her responses. Whether he realizes or not he has gone into “Wife Test” mode. And what women must understand is that any man worth having is going to subject her to a rigorous series of challenges before he’s ready to pull the trigger.
But she shouldn’t panic. It’s actually a good thing. Indeed, if she’s actually committed, she should embrace it, and eat up the challenge of it all. This is difficult, of course, since they’re still in the infatuation-fuck-all-the-time stage, more or less, but this is when stuff starts to get real. The fact he took as long as he did and introduced her to family is big — she passed the early tests. Now it’s down to the second half of the quiz, and if your reader is smart, she’ll discard her anxiety and welcome the opportunity to study the dude and show off her own capabilities. This is the time where Deal Breakers need to come out, and you can’t do that if you’re constantly just screwing all the time.
So start asking him, in little ways, just what he sees as ideal qualities in a wife. He’s not really going to know, probably, but he’ll have some good guesses. Start tailoring your behavior to match. Watch what his mother does, and figure out which things he admires about her and what things he resents or dislikes. Discover what is most important to him, and prepare yourself to deal with that for the rest of your life. Settle the issue of children to your mutual satisfaction, find out his dreams and fantasies and fears, and give him every possible indication that you are ready to trust him absolutely.
And there is so much more. I guess I should write a book or something. But she’s in Wife Test mode, and the next few months will be critical.
My advice? Study hard, hump him frequently and with great enthusiasm, and let him know what he’s getting. And cut out this anxiety shit. If he’s auditioning you for First Officer, then it’s really hard to demonstrate your trust and appreciation for him when you are (mentally and emotionally) standing in a lifeboat while you audition. Such things do not inspire confidence, and that will work against you. If you’re willing to get on his boat and let him be your Captain, then you’re either on the boat, or you’re off the boat. Pick one, and then stick with it . . . and let him know you’re ready to ride until he throws you off.
Does that make you emotionally vulnerable? Yep. Does that challenge your identity as a unique individual? Maybe. Does that set you up to be hurt? Actually, probably not any more than if you try to back into the relationship carefully. If you break up, you’re gonna get hurt, it won’t matter how much of your heart you invested in it.
But it’s your best course of action. Quit solipsistically thinking that everything he does means something it might not about the relationship, and start demonstrating that he can trust you utterly, emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually, and financially. Show him you have his back. Devote yourself to him, and let him know you are prepared to follow him where he leads. THAT’S what he wants to hear: commitment, admiration, and respect.
Any idiot can do love.
Good luck!
If he’s anything like me (also a product of divorce), he might be waiting to see how she handles adversity. Trust is likely a huge issue for him, so if she wants to keep him, she’ll probably have to continuously demonstrate that she’s worthy of trust — forever. Realistically though, she should give it another nine months at least, and as Stuart says, play the role she is auditioning for.
A more pertinent question is probably: does he want children? As Susan noted, she didn’t actually talk about that, and that’s a bigger issue.
IMO, her moving out would end things. It just demonstrates she can’t be trusted to stick with the relationship through thick and thin. Even threatening to move out could wreck things.
In my case, it’s my mother who cheated, and I have a tiny family and no siblings, so my particular issues may be slightly different, but it sounds like he doesn’t trust either parent particularly well.
Good advice from all. Elise should not have moved in with this man. In doing so she has now gone all in, when he is holding back the motherlode of commitment she wants — marriage. She wants the ring and the date.
But what Elise is glossing over is that he HAS committed to her, as much as he is willing to do so. They live together. They’re exclusive. She’s a part of his life: she’s met his family and friends. He’s told her he loves her. More importantly he is showing her he loves her by sharing a living space, forgoing other opportunities, supporting her, and integrating her into his life.
She doesn’t like this because she’s operating completely in his frame, on his terms. She’s getting a lot, but she has considerably less control over the direction, course and timing of the relationship milestones.
Agree with MCB and others who say the relationship should be moving toward marriage; but I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t want to make it legal. Elise will have to decide if what this man is willing to offer is good enough.
If she moves out, that will end the relationship. It would be like a GF telling a BF she won’t have sex with him when they had been having sex.
Moving out would be a clear signal that she is asserting more control over the relationship; she is pulling back; and essentially giving him an ultimatum. I’m not saying she shouldn’t do that; I’m simply stating what the likely result will be.
It would be interesting to know her number of partners, as it may be showing up in her inability to bond to him. From the tone I would guess 8-15, if she was down in the 2-3 she would have no issue saying “I love U”
If he is commited to her (his actions do point that way) this is more valuable than state sealed marriage.
I feel like HUS has become the Island of Misfit Toys.
This comment is so off the wall that Elise would have to be insane to enter this conversation. I’ve already deleted another comment. I count at least 5 completely unwarranted accusations here.
All Ye Who Enter Here:
Be advised to check your Red Pill at the door or come back when you have digested it and are no longer lashing out irrationally.
This is a difficult situation and I’m not sure that becoming The Perfect Wife is the best strategy here. If she truly wants to do so and the effort is not overwhelming then perhaps it is worth a try. Maybe it will get her what she wants, maybe she’ll be just as frustrated 6 months from now. She’ll then have to decide whether she wants actual marriage or being a live-in wife. But if she has any negative reaction toward morphing into this Perfect Wife then it will ultimately lead to resentment, especially if she has to keep up appearances forever to avoid him bolting.
Crazy? How so? She seems remarkably level-headed and sane to me.
Huh? They’ve spend every night together for 9 months. They are in love.
How does this, make sense with this:
She is aging at the same rate everyone else ages. I’ve recommended that she give it six months or a year. Why shouldn’t she give it a bit of time to see how things go?
@Tomato
I wondered that too. I did not find any studies that addressed that question. Perhaps he hates his father’s second wife? My college bf was in a similar situation, and he hated the homewrecker, and even blamed her for the fact that his father was rarely in touch.
I thought it was interesting that her bf had a couple of serious relationships during his college years, but went from 22-27 without being in one. When he met her, he was clearly ready, and made his interest clear from the first night. No push pull from this guy. I have to believe he cares for her deeply. It sounds like he thinks she could be “the one” – he has said he can see a future together. If he steadfastly refuses to marry, his pool of potential partners is going to go way down, at least in his own cohort.
Am I the only one with a déjà vu? Haven’t this letter been posted and discussed already??
————————————–
And on a completely unrelated note (since for the life of me I can’t get the forum to work):
I’ve been seeing a girl for some time now, and every so often when watching a movie or walking in the street, she will comment “Wow, she’s really hot/pretty” when we see a good-looking woman. And I remember previous girls who have done the same.
What’s the proper response to this??? Is it a shit test of some kind? Is she looking for reassurance that she looks good enough? Am I paying just a bit too much attention to the good-looking woman? What’s the thought behind it?
So far I mostly ignore her comments. If the woman isn’t that hot I sometimes voice my disagreement (“Meh. She’s okay I guess”), or when it really is a hot woman I meekly agree.
Can anyone enlighten me on this one?
@Ian Ironwood
I think you give Elise excellent advice, but you ignore the fact that he has expressly stated he has never intended to marry. Sounds like he’s in the “Probably not” camp right now. She can go all in, and I believe I recommended she do just that, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say that he is auditioning her as a wife. He may just be auditioning her for the role of live-in mom of his illegitimate children.
TL;DR, etc.. I did skim it. I’ll shake the jar with the wasps in it, what are each of their SMVs? If there is an imbalance, one or the other has more options, it changes the discussion. If you did mention it somewhere, my apologies.
>> “A more pertinent question is probably: does he want children?”
Yeah, I sort of think that this is what it comes down to. If you’re not going to have kids, then there’s pretty much no incentive for a man (particularly a high-SMV man) to get married.
Women who want marriage + no kids are going to have a hard time selling their product.
Susan, did you make a post about cohabitation before marriage?
I am against it and would want to be (at least) engaged before moving in together. However all my female friends and my sister think I’m nuts, so it’s often under debate.
I do think this is a good example of why cohabitation before marriage is never a good idea. This guy has everything he wants and I don’t see how he’ll ever want to change anything.
I do find it odd that she didn’t elaborate on the marriage thing. If she wants to get married and he doesn’t, she needs to leave him. According to her letter, she asked and he said “don’t think so”. I don’t think that should be the end of the discussion, surely she would want a straight answer and make it clear what she wants?
@DJ
This makes no sense, as she clearly has bonded to him. She is deeply in love with him.
She has no issue saying I love you. She said it first. He is the one who has difficulty with it.
WTF? Are you guys not taking the time to read the post? I don’t care if you read it or not, but if you don’t, please do us the courtesy of refraining from throwing in your .02.
Re her number of partners, she clearly implies she has offered that information and he has declined it. She also suggests some worry that he has a history of promiscuity, and has tried to piece together his sexual history from what he has shared.
There is no indication whatsoever here that Elise has been promiscuous.
I think that we all should remember that if he has a high powered job and wants to advance his career, then it would simply not look very good to the partners and his colleagues and associates and clients if he is not married to the mother of his children.
He is a little younger than the age when people in his cohort get married, but soon enough there will be weddings and such. He will be attending with his live-in, and the question will inevitably arise… without Elise ever having to say anything.
She does well not to pressure him, because there will soon be plenty of pressure coming toward him from other directions.
I don’t know if I am making too much of this, but when she asked him about marriage, he said he didn’t think so. That feels more like a non-committal answer than a rejection of the idea.
I also agree with Susan about the question of each person’s “number.” There is no indication that either of them has been promiscuous. For my part I find that a man who does not want to hear about a woman’s past experience is more serious about her than one who does.
Clearly, they are in love. By keeping the issue of past lovers away from the conversation, he is saying, as Susan suggests, that he considers Elise “the one.”
@Darsh
This letter from Elise was languishing in the forum so I decided to make it a post.
Re the forum, what’s wrong with it? I’d appreciate your taking the time to describe the problem, since it looks fine on the back end.
Re your gf’s testing you re other women, she’s probably fishing for information, and she wants to know that you prefer her. It’s not in your best interest to offer blanket reassurance. I would continue as you are, but I would also make sure that your gf knows that you think she’s hot. Or you might occasionally say, “she’s OK, not as pretty as you.” IOW, let her know you find her attractive, but do not allow her to become complacent in assuming you don’t find other women attractive too.
Dr. S, I still think it’s incredibly risky to move in with a guy who “doesn’t think” he wants to get married. Even moving in with a guy who absolutely says he does is no guarantee that he will follow through. When he says he thinks he doesn’t, well …
I hope this works out for her but at this point luck will have to play a very large role. She made a big, big mistake which may not yet be fatal but which has put her at a serious disadvantage.
Elise does not mention this. As the relationship has been strong and remains so after 9 months, and took off from the first night they met, I believe we may assume they are well matched in terms of SMV.
From the post:
He’s not against serious relationships though and wants children.
Susan,
Love me?
-A Misfit Toy
Leave. If he’s not in love with you by now, he almost certainly never will be. You deserve better.
@Anne
No, I don’t think I’ve ever written about that sole topic. I did it, and it’s come up in the comment threads a lot, though.
I agree that she should make her own wishes clear. That’s why I told her never to pretend something she doesn’t really feel. However, I believe she feels that he has opened up to her gradually in the relationship, and that he may come around on the question of marriage over time. It’s entirely possible that she is right, IMO. The question is, how much time should she give it?
Don’t forget – she has said she is deeply in love with him, and that he has said he can see a future with her. She has something real to work with here.
Honestly I think his willingness to contemplate children without being married is a huge red flag, even bigger than saying “I don’t think I want to get married.” Talk about a DLV.
@Stuart
I agree. Specifically, this:
It has never been something he’s wanted although he doesn’t rule out that he will at some point.
Sounds like she has caught him a bit off guard, or at least asked him something he hasn’t given much thought to recently. He may have decided as a teenager he wouldn’t marry and not been in a position to contemplate it again since. We don’t know, but saying he doesn’t rule it out is very important here.
I don’t think we should be telling her to leave him in a cavalier way. She has a great deal invested in the relationship, and it sounds like he does too. No guarantees, but I have a sense this could work out with time and care. If it were me, I’d stick around and audition for the role just as you suggested.
Yeah, I sort of think that this is what it comes down to. If you’re not going to have kids, then there’s pretty much no incentive for a man (particularly a high-SMV man) to get married.
Women who want marriage + no kids are going to have a hard time selling their product.
Yeah, that’s why gay and lesbian couples have no interest in getting married. Oh wait…
“Crazy? How so? She seems remarkably level-headed and sane to me.”
I’d say so.
“Be advised to check your Red Pill at the door or come back when you have digested it and are no longer lashing out irrationally.”
Does it ever cross you mind that if I were to take these statements literally (which of course I’m most likely to do), I’d never return?
@Escoffier… I have not been judging whether she should or should not have moved in with him. As the situation presents itself, she’s living with him. It may not be ideal, but it’s the reality on the ground.
In most cases I would agree with you. The data suggests that you are right. And yet, it seems clear to me that everything is going well in this relationship, so why would we want to get her to thinking that she has made a mistake.
She has a great deal invested already, so I think it better to take the position that she has chosen well and that she is being treated exactly as a man would treat a woman he was eventually going to marry.
As Susan said, when Elise asked the question, she caught him off guard. To me this means that one should not take his answer as as a No.
@Cooper
I don’t think you’ve lashed out irrationally once here. And I see you as having largely digested it anyway. You may not like it, but you’re not going around calling perfectly reasonable people mercenary sluts of low SMV.
The cohabitation/marriage issue boils down to whether he wants to cohabit with her for the next 5-60 years (about the same time frame that a marriage would likely last) or only for another year.
If he is willing to do cohabitation that is marriage in every aspect except the paper then that’s probably fine for Elise (unless she wants the paper too).
If she lives in an area where cohabitation beyond two years or so doesn’t lead to common law marriage and she is concerned about not getting her portion of their joint increase in wealth, especially if she plans to be a SAHM, then she should likely insist on marriage.
“All Ye Who Enter Here:”
Nvm, I should have noticed which comment you were addressing.
“I feel like HUS has become the Island of Misfit Toys”
I wanna be a dentist!
@Han
He has pretty much indicated this is where he sees himself, and she wrote to me because she presumably wants marriage.
In any case, very, very few women are indifferent to the question. The stats on cohabitation make it very clear – without marriage, most couples split up, and that is very bad for children, as we see in this man.
I want to be a Charlie in the Box.
Well, she needs to time limit this, and I wouldn’t spend a lot more time if I were her. He should know by now or very soon if he wants to keep her.
The risk is obvious, figuring out at 27 that marrage won’t happen is a lot better than figuring it out at 32.
My take: give it more time, and don’t kill things by trying to accelerate it.
On “love”. Some men take this word very seriously. When my wife to me she loved me, I replied “I’m not ready to say that back just yet, when I say it I mean it”. I had a lot higher standard for love, than just butterflies or romance or lust or sex, or whatever women so often confuse for love.
Nine months is too early to even breathe the word marriage, and I come from an intact family. Asking if he is interested in it, in general, is code for “please propose to me”. His refusal to answer means “duly noted, I will ask if and when I am ready”. She is lucky he didn’t classify him as a clinger and break up.
A man will be interested in marriage in *general*, based on his own life trajectory. Women can’t change our mind, only be present when/if we do. Give he’s from a broken home he might never want to go there but I think he might change his mind.
Prescription: wait a 6 more months for the L works, and a year or two for a proposal.
“I want to be a Charlie in the Box.”
Hahaha.
I recall the scene where Will Farrell, in Elf, is assigned to test all the Boxes.
* “the L word”.
I’m hoping Elise comes by. I told her I’d be putting the post up today or tomorrow, but I don’t have a valid email for her, so we’ll have to see. Personally, I always like it when the writer chimes in, and I feel that it helps them more.
The letter implies that she has directly expressed to him that she needs to be told “I love you” and that her end goal is marriage. If he is unwilling to do both/either then she will have to decide whether that is a deal breaker for her. The difficulty is sifting out whether he wants both but just needs some time or whether he is truly not interested in either.
I was in a LTR where my boyfriend refused to commit or say I love you, even though he knew I wanted both. We were in relationship purgatory, fueled by his complacency and my inability to stand up for myself. After I finally left him he wrote a long letter saying how now he knew he loved me, but it was too little too late.
“I wanna be a dentist!
I want to be a Charlie in the Box.”
I want to be a lawyer, like the ones on the TV commercials!
@Susan
In places where cohabitation is very different legally from being married then she should be concerned.
But with the ease of divorce, getting married doesn’t necessarily mean the relationship will last longer.
I think the main question she wants answered is does he see them having a life together (or at least giving it an honest and sincere go at it).
If he were to say, I don’t believe in marriage so I don’t really want to marry (but would consider it) but I want to be with you for the rest of our lives then I don’t see how that is so different than saying the same thing and getting married.
Since divorce is so easy, what does the getting married really mean?
I do realize that it will be much more easy for her to get half of their combined wealth and that can be an incentive to keep men in marriage when they have been the prime financial contributer, and if she plans on being a SAHM then that might make her not just want to trust his hypothetical intention to make a life with her.
My point is that the underlying thing is whether he wants to make a life with her, not whether he wants to marry her, though marriage would seem to serve as an indication of the former in his case where he’s not exuberantly looking to get married.
Susan wrote:
Yes, BUT… I highly doubt marriage-talk and children-talk happened at the same time. Children-talk usually happens pretty early on, then we file away that piece of information. Marriage-talk happened pretty recently, apparently. It’s fine to say, “I want kids some day,” but then it’s another thing entirely to say, “I want kids with you within X years.” The way she describes him, smells like an assumption to me. I think a good question for her to ask him would be, “do you think children deserve a stable home environment, with committed married parents?”
I say this because I wouldn’t get married unless it was for a child. He’s likely the same, and I really doubt anyone’s ready for babies after nine months together.
Oops.
@ Offthecuff
“Nine months is too early to even breathe the word marriage, and I come from an intact family. Asking if he is interested in it, in general, is code for “please propose to me”. ”
I don’t think this is true. If you’re a woman in your twenties and you ultimately want to get married, you want to know that he does too. Hopefully it will be mentioned casually, otherwise we’ll be careful about asking too soon. What’s for sure is that if he tells you he doesn’t, there is no point. If a guy says over a round of drinks with friends that he “never wants to get married”, I wouldn’t go on a 1st date with him. There are women out there who spend years with a man who DOES want to get married and waste their time as he doesn’t propose. What odds do you have with a man who doesn’t or “doesn’t think so”?
When you’ve been committed for almost a year, any 20-something woman should have a strong sense of where the relationship is going. Whether he is interested in marriage (to anyone) is something you want to know as soon as possible. I don’t expect a man to propose to me after 9 months, and it takes a lot for me to fall in love as well. I’ve never said “I love you” to anyone.
That being said, women are the emotional sex and our feelings run deeper, I wouldn’t say that women misunderstand love or act naive for falling in love before men do. Men can never understand a woman’s emotions, just like women cannot completely understand men’s need for sexual variety.
I saw that. I wouldn’t take it at face value. I said that a lot when I first courted Mrs. I. It was a test.
If a woman is too invested in the dress and the party, that’s a red flag. Sometimes you have to watch what a man does, and not what he says. If he moved in, he’s thinking about it no matter what he says.
“That’s not correct. I stipulated cohabitation as the time for acting like a wife re doing chores especially for him.”
You’ve got to be joking.
@Susan W, Post 23,
“Crazy? How so? She seems remarkably level-headed and sane to me. ”
It is illogical to say this “I understand this because I’m the exact same way but I feel that this shouldn’t apply if you really love someone.” She agrees that it is wrong to pressure someone to do something, but love is different. Actually, loves makes it even more important to remain consistent unless you want to be lied to.
He may have loving feelings about her, but it isn’t quite the same to say “I love you.” She must have the patients to wait. Besides, it is much too early with only 9 months into the relationship. I often hear stories of women who waited years for their boyfriends to give them a ring. This is the opposite case where she can’t wait at all.
The psychoanalyzing of his divorced parents is the worst thing. His childhood experience doesn’t always affect future decisions. She is getting herself crazy.
–
I recommended that she move out and continue to date casually (not breakup). I think you jumped the gun in saying they are in love.
–
I’m trying to understand her situation when I say she is 26 and pushing 30. She can’t wait, but she must.
@Tomato
I agree.
“The difficulty is sifting out whether he wants both but just needs some time or whether he is truly not interested in either.”
You acted correctly in your example, IMO. I think if the person knows what you want – and is still resistant to provide it – it’s not a good fit.
@Anne #59
+1
” If a guy says over a round of drinks with friends that he “never wants to get married”, I wouldn’t go on a 1st date with him.”
NAWALT hehe
The difference is a breakup rates:
After 5 years:
Married – 20%
Living together – 49%
After 10 years:
Married: 33%
Living together: 62%
Some negative effects of cohabitation are laid out here: http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/rcq/rcq_negativeeffects_waite.html
Also here:
@Susan
Those stats are lumping all cohabitors together. What about cohabitors that say they want to live the rest of their lives together?
This couple is an example of people who started cohabiting without the expressed commitment of being together for life or whatever marriage commitments consist of. However, if they were to enter into a cohabitation with lifelong commitment that would be a different story.
@Susan
I’m not really arguing against her wanting to get married, only pointing out that if he was intent on a lifelong cohabitation and really convinced her that he meant it that it might be worth her considering and accepting.
@Rebound
That didn’t sound right. We had a big argument here because some guys wanted or even expected girlfriends to come over, do their laundry, clean their bathroom, etc. after spending the night. I said that was outrageous, and things got pretty heated. I then said that when two people live together, they should expect to share chores, including laundry, etc.
I followed up with a post:
Be a Lover Before You Are a Wife
I am NOT in favor of cleaning the bathroom of a man you do not live with. In any case, Escoffier’s claim that I suggested waiting until marriage is not true – I said that sharing chores should begin when two people live together.
I second this. It’s awfully risky for women to deliberately ignore the “love and commitment” requirement. Why begin dating someone who has stated openly and without reservation that he does not share your view of what is important in life? If men test women this way, they may get lucky and find someone to stick it out, but I believe many women will bolt, which is sensible.
There’s no such thing as a soulmate, right? If one guy makes it clear he’s not going to ever marry you, there are many others who would be open to the possibility. It is important for women in their 20s not to waste time if they want children.
I have never seen stats like that – I suspect they are a small minority, as marriage is still the most popular option for lifelong commitment, by far.
My gut feeling on this one says “run.”
Why? The guy has serious issues if he refuses to even say “I love you.” My husband and I are both from divorced families, and we have no problems expressing our emotions.
Elise might be getting a temporarily good deal, but that’s about it. I would never settle for a man who never expressed his love verbally. I would rather be with a poor man with average looks and low “social status” but whose heart was full of love.
But, I’m a total romantic, and I’m a sucker for stories like two young folks fall in love, get together, get married, struggle through a time of relative poverty and end up well-off, with kids. This guy just sounds like a ticking time bomb of psychological crisis.
@Hope
I think that men exist on a spectrum of how emotive and expressive they are.
I tend to be on the expressive side when really in love with someone, though I keep it toned down until later.
Other men are not very expressive. This seems more true of men 50+ years ago that were raised to be less expressive and yet you would infer from their actions that many were loving men and sacrificed for the wife and kids.
So, if words of affirmation is not one of his love languages then “hear” what he is saying with the love languages he speaks. However, if she needs to hear this frequently then he is likely not the best candidate. Likewise, if she needs marriage, as opposed to livelong commitment w/o the paper, then if he doesn’t sound intent on it in the next few months or so then it might be time to get out.
@ Hope – Yay, finally someone who had the same reaction as me!
Also, I think it’s a big red flag that his thinking behind asking her to move in was, “It’ll be cheaper and I won’t have to spend time driving over to see you.” All about convenience, and nothing to do with building a life with someone.
To be succinct, Elise, give it some more time without pressuring him and just enjoy being together.
After that time, if you haven’t determined that he wants to spend his life with you or marry you and that he loves you, primarily through his actions and secondarily through his words, then it would be wise to bring up the issues in conversation to give him that chance to give his side of the story.
Then you can either continue with him on his terms or demand that your terms are met or come to some compromise.
If none of those three options work or are acceptable to both parties then leave.
I don’t believe that nine months is too early to talk marriage, but be that as it may, once you’re cohabitating, that’s definitely NOT too early to talk marriage. In fact, you shouldn’t even contemplate cohabitation unless you know the other party shares your view of marriage.
Not everyone expresses their love verbally. I didn’t tell Mrs. I I loved her until almost a year into the relationship. And I said it infrequently until I felt comfortable about it. It’s not something my family culture said a lot, and we save it for when it really matters. If you’re going to kill a relationship, do it over something important. And it might be important to the OP, but if it isn’t important to him – yet – then that means he’s still evaluating. Don’t expect him to leap into anything — he’s waiting to see if she flakes. Worrying about “I love you” and the possibility of marriage at this stage is an early flaky warning, so he’s paying attention. Jumping the gun, flaking out and freaking out about silliness like that when he’s contemplating swimming in your gene pool is going to put him off.
I know literally dozens of women who have screwed up this exact situation because they self-sabotaged their relationship. They can always rationalize it away afterward — “it just wasn’t meant to be” – but the fact is they could have salvaged it if they had just refrained from just this sort of silliness.
If you want a husband, make yourself a wife. If you want a wedding, just throw yourself a really big party and spare everyone the sorrow. Figure out which one it is that you really want and pursue it.
But if you want to be his wife you’ll demonstrate some patience and tenacity . . . or you’re probably not wife material. That’s what I’d be thinking, if I were he.
Elise,
I’m reminded, and not in a good way, of what Susan said when women like to “win men over.” One bad way this tendency can manifest is when women become attracted to “Byronic” men in the hope that they can reform these men. Of course, according to what you’ve told us, this particular specimen isn’t anywhere near a “ne-er do well” like the stereotype of “Byronic” men goes, but the danger remains of becoming obsessed/addicted with changing someone into what you want, which could very well become an impossible challenge.
The fact of the matter is, change only comes from within each of us. External pressure can help, but can just as easily backfire. Even longtime marriages can’t truly change some of the core issues afflicting each of the partners.
I would agree that one of the things to do right now is to take some time to build trust as a couple, to build on each other as a “family” of sorts, in the sense that you are proving yourself to him as someone who will always have his back, someone who will always welcome him home, someone who will take him in your arms both when he is his highest joys and his deepest distress. This would be one way to gradually get him to open up about his (understandable) misgivings about starting a family with you (yes, the couple is the first basis of the family). Help him understand that you’re not the kind of woman to turn him into another divorce statistic or to walk out on him like his father did. Consider couples therapy if it’s available.
@Hope: if those are the only issues they have after nine months, then running away from this is probably another great self-sabotage story. Ten years from now she’ll bump into him on the street . . . with his wife and kids. The life she could have had. The dude she could have had . . . if she hadn’t messed things up.
Any guy worth marrying is going to proceed into the commitment of a relationship cautiously. Women don’t respect a dude who gives up his ‘C-card’ too early any more than men respect the oft-punched ‘V-card’. At nine months I was just beginning to consider a permanent relationship. There was still a hell of a lot of testing to do. A woman who isn’t willing to stick around for that is like a used-car salesman who is trying to convince you to buy a car without taking a test drive. It doesn’t cost anything to sit behind the wheel for a while, but he’s going to buy the one that fits him like a glove.
Be the glove.
(Dear Goddess, the phrase “if you want glove, be gloveable” just popped into my head. Time for a drink.)
HanSolo, yep, a couple with such differences will run into problems.
I am firmly in the camp of “what you see is what you get.” If you start out like this, it’s NOT going to get better. The initial phase is a clue into the future. Ignore these clues at your own peril.
This guy sounds a lot like me. Child of divorce. Unemotional detached father. Difficulty forming trusting relationships. Very hard expressing love verbally. I dated my girlfriend for 2 1/2 years and while I could show love through action I didn’t tell her I loved her until the night I proposed.
Had she needed me to express myself verbally before and pressured me to do so it would very likely fractured our relationship and we wouldn’t be married today. A previous girlfriend, who I also loved, did push me to be more verbal and the continued pressure drove a wedge between us. I’m very thankful my wife was content enough not to need the constant verbal affirmation.
Now that we are married we say “I love you” to each other every night and every morning. It is still hard for me to do but it is getting easier and I continue to try because it is important to her and, I think, important to me as well.
I think Susan’s advice is excellent. Yes, you may not end up married to him but it appears that he does love you and does want to be with you. His ability to verbally express love to you is not a foreshadow of his willingness to commit. However pressuring him to do so, when he has expressed that it is uncomfortable for him may very well be a foreshadow of his unwillingness. Good luck to you.
Stuff that guys say over drink doesn’t always mean something, lol
I feel like I have read this exact letter somewhere else. I could be wrong. Some of these blend together, but I’m fairly certain it has been posted elsewhere, FWIW.
Perhaps I’m just too much of a killjoy non-romantic, overly pragmatic INTJ woman.
My response at first wasn’t to be troubled by this guy not saying the “L word,” but I was instead troubled by this:
“a few months ago he bought a flat and asked me to move in with him – mainly because it’s cheaper and handier but he also said that we’d be able to spend more time together. I said yes and moved in…”
Huh, as it seems “LJ” asked as well?
The sad part is that this was the time for her to get him to talk about his expectations, but she blew it. She should have been asking, “what are your expectations of a live-in relationship? Is it that you are interested in getting engaged, married? Is it that you are in love with me?” And if he wasn’t interested in explaining or if he wasn’t ready to think or talk about marriage, she could have continued seeing him, but without moving in with him.
Because otherwise, it seems to be just about fun and games and playing house with her being in the losing end of hoping she plays house well enough to get him to marry her. Yet, she will never know when that day might come. I get the Ian Ironwood argument, though, that he might be very serious minded, but cautious. That could have been part of the conversation, if she had brought it up.
Well it is what it is; she is in deep, and she is auditioning, because that is what being a live-in in those circumstances requires. She just has to audition very well and for as long as she thinks she can continue doing so in the hope that after x amount of time, he will be persuaded.
But he might not ever be; he pretty much said so, as it only came up recently when it should have come up at first. Ian Ironwood might be right, that things can work out well for them if she plays it right.
Now here is something very important; many women, as Ian Ironwood explained, blow things up, but I think they blow things up in a different way. They blow things up by walking in blind, as happened here.
They are too timid about expressing their needs or interests when they enter into situations like this, for whatever reason, naivete, they are too passive, or they are fearful of being seen as too clingy and needy. That has got to go. This is your life here, and your future, this is no time to be timid.
When I moved in with Mr. PVW, it was because we were planning on getting married in a month. He knew those were my expectations, and he was willing to work with them. However, I did spend a lot of time prior to that cultivating high mmv “girl game” while we were dating, not only because that is how I was raised, but I was interested in becoming the type of woman I knew he needed in a relationship.
Not sure how “alpha” this guy is inviting her to live with him but he has some alpha traits for sure. Susan gave good advice but the old married guys, Deti and Ian, nailed it. He said “maybe” to the marriage issue. If he wants kids it will undoubtedly be in a marriage. So she needs to act like the best wife to be on the planet. And it sounds like she is a good part of the way there. Good luck, Elise.
yawn
Finally got around to reading the letter:
Boom, this x1000. Was exactly what I was thinking. Putting pressure on him is going to make him want to run and setting up expectations for him is going to make him feel like he’s in a job.
He is obviously very taken with the girl, and has a tremendous of issues to go through. She should definitely be taking the lead in emotional escalation and setting the “couple in love” frame, and he may naturally fall in line with the frame: it appears he certainly WANTS to.
Also, moving in a month ago….come on, there’s got to be some problems for that, right? Don’t reinterpret basic “I FUCKING HATE YOUR TOOTHBRUSH” problems into “oh my god this relationship is over because he doesn’t say he loves me” problems. That’s extremely dangerous.
I also want to toss out the theory that this boy is omega and has only recently come into his full SMV value. Only two relationships, both in college, followed by 5 years of no girl at all, and he doesn’t even kiss until the 7th date…
Yeah, that sounds like he spent a long time as an Involuntary Celibate and isn’t great with girls.
I think this is a really important point. There’s a lot of variation in families around expressions of affection. Imagine how the norm, whatever it is, might be interrupted with a nasty, adulterous divorce. I’m not surprised this particular guy would be cautious about any expression of commitment.
@ pvw- Yup. And to add to that, he owns the place– I’m assuming they don’t own in jointly. So she is, presumably, paying part of the expenses/ mortgage, while he builds equity that is not shared.
Maybe I’m cynical for thinking of it that way, but if he were expressing confidence in a shared future, I wouldn’t be worried about her getting screwed.
@Ian
This concept has been getting a lot of airplay at HUS recently, though I hadn’t connected it to this situation. Still, it fits.
I like that!
I agree with Han, Ian, and JamesV, and not with Hope. You may have married an F who fell in emotional gooey love with lots of words, but there are few men like that. Remember, men have lots of feelings that we have keep close to our chest… Doesn’t anyone remember “eager men” thread?
Anne: of course it does, here. This is not about what you want, this time.
He’s *already* committed with monogamy, but she doesn’t “want to get stuck in a dead end relationship, with someone that will never commit.”
Precisely what level of commitment is she looking for, that she doesn’t already have, then? Super monogamy? Extra special super-duper monogamy?
Answer: she wants to be engaged, or at least proposed to, which means marriage, but doesn’t quite know it yet.
The thing is, if he wants her to be auditioning for the role of wife, he’s not exactly setting those expectations clearly. They are (or should be) old enough to communicate about these matters. I agree with pvw that moving in together to be “cheap” is a terrible idea.
My husband and I moved in together when we were 25, after only about three months. Month one, he told me that he saw the possibility of having a baby with me. It was clear to both of us from the beginning that we would be evaluating each other for marriage. We got engaged three months after moving in together, and married six months after that.
While there are success stories of women getting married to men who were not verbally expressive or affectionate, there are also lots of failure stories of women waiting around for a man to marry her only to end up alone and dumped because the man was never in love with her. Susan is advocating the “all in” approach to the gamble with a 6-month timeframe, but I think she’s going to suffer from the “sunk cost” fallacy (as she already has) and not be able to leave at the end of 6 months.
@JamesV
Thank you for sharing that honest and moving comment.
I love this. It’s an honest look at just how difficult this can be – you love your wife, you value this exchange of affection each day, and yet it is not easy. It may never be easy. But you two figured it out. This is what I hope Elise can have.
@Tasmin
It was in the forum, but got no replies. I thought it was interesting so I posted it. It’s definitely not a fake – I have exchanged two rounds of emails with Elise.
@pvw
I agree pvw, well said. This is so common it pains me. In fact, much of the time women have sex for the first time with a guy, they have not asked anything about his intentions, they go with the flow, cross their fingers, and hope for the best. It works out sometimes, but it’s a risky business. I keep telling “my girls” that if a guy is thinking of a relationship, he’ll be delighted if the woman brings that up as part of the decision to have sex. They’re either on the same page or they’re not. If they’re not, she needs to know. If they are, it’s perfect.
Obviously, the stakes are higher here, but as Stuart said, she needs advice on how to move forward from the current circumstances.
I just saw the forum post and noticed that she posted it on 11/4/12 — so over 2 months ago. Susan, did you heard anything from her as to any updates since then? By now they’ve been together nearly a year.
@Offthecuff
I’m sorry, I really don’t get your post at all. I am aware she wants marriage – that’s what I based the advice on. Where I disagreed with you, was where you said women mentioning marriage are basically asking for a proposal. They are not necessarily. They don’t want to take the time to figure out whether they can be with him if he doesn’t want marriage anyway. You want to know what’s what before you bother getting emotionally invested. Not every woman falls in love overnight, even if he’s “alpha” or whatever.
@LJ
Yes, our communication has been in the last week. I asked if she would like me to post it and she said she is still very interested in feedback. My sense is that the situation has not changed.
Ian Ironwood, “Ten years from now she’ll bump into him on the street . . . with his wife and kids. The life she could have had. The dude she could have had . . . if she hadn’t messed things up.”
Just before meeting my husband, I was in a semi-similar situation where I was “chasing” the ENTJ, and he was withholding, being aloof, not wanting to commit, not saying anything about love, etc. I got fed up, cried a lot, and looked for a man who didn’t think he was being “pressured.” Years later, I’m the one in a happy marriage with a baby, and he’s still not anywhere near an engagement.
OffTheCuff, true, there are fewer Feeling type men than Thinking types. But even Ted D and Cooper, though INT*s, have their romantic sides and would probably (I’m guessing here!) not refuse to say “I love you” at least on a semi-regular basis after 9 months of dating and moving in together. Those issues surrounding trust and love would be difficult to accept for someone who is emotionally ready to trust and love.
When I was younger, I used to think my love was so “special” that I could “change” a man. That was naive and dumb. She cannot make him ready for marriage if he is not. My husband was ready for love before I came into his life. He told me, early on, that he was “ready.”
I think people are being too hard on Elise’s bf. He was able to tell her he loves her, admitted that it is very hard for him to say, and that he has never said it to anyone before. He is attentive, caring, and has made her a priority in his life. They get along really well and have great sex. He is extremely loyal to family and friends, and is admired for having excellent character. All this is in Elise’s letter. I think we should take her at her word.
If she walks away now, I fear she will always wonder, always regret, running in fear. She’s already in deep, why not nurture the love and see how things develop?
Look, I focused on the psychology piece in the post because it is so profound. Kids of divorce have a really, really hard time. It shows up time and again in the stats re promiscuity, hooking up, avoiding relationships, etc. He’s not dysfunctional, and he’s really trying. I think she’s got a keeper IF he can trust her fully. I agree with Ian that 9 months is not a long time, given the circumstances.
@Susan: I keep telling “my girls” that if a guy is thinking of a relationship, he’ll be delighted if the woman brings that up as part of the decision to have sex. They’re either on the same page or they’re not. If they’re not, she needs to know. If they are, it’s perfect.
Me: When he brought up the question of living together, that would have been the time to emotionally escalate on her part, for her to make sure he knows how she feels about him, nothing over the top or anything, but as a means of getting a sense of where he is, and without pressuring him. Any decent man would respect that type of vulnerability game, it seems to me. Moving in is a big step for a woman when she is unsure about a man’s intentions; if anything, as you suggest, a decent man would want to be clear about what he wants.
Anne, by “in general” I meant “is likely to be, in situations like this” – rather then “applicable to all women, in any situation”. Unfortunate word choice.
Hope, he might not be ready for marriage yet, but he might be in the future, and she can’t change him, for sure, but she can show that she loves him dearly and that love is indeed possible.
I don’t know. I think it’s worth a shot.
Hope: “I was in a semi-similar situation where I was “chasing” the ENTJ, and he was withholding, being aloof, not wanting to commit, not saying anything about love, etc”
That’s not even remotely similar. See #98.
Maybe he doesn’t need to change. Maybe he just needs time to feel safe and secure being himself.
” He was able to tell her he loves her, admitted that it is very hard for him to say, and that he has never said it to anyone before. He is attentive, caring, and has made her a priority in his life. They get along really well and have great sex. He is extremely loyal to family and friends, and is admired for having excellent character. All this is in Elise’s letter. I think we should take her at her word.
If she walks away now, I fear she will always wonder, always regret, running in fear. She’s already in deep, why not nurture the love and see how things develop?”
Maybe just see how things develop for 12 months and then think about this again.
The relationship snooze button.
OTC, “That’s not even remotely similar. See #98.”
I left out some details… he did say I love you. Then stopped. There’s more, but I’d rather not get into it.
What was Elise’s thought-process in deciding to move in? (I.e sounds like fun, save rent, a step towards marriage? None of the above?) Has she ever lived with anyone before this?
Because living together as a couple is a very public statement. In some states they will be moving towards a common-law marriage if it lasts long enough.
The window for laying down expectations has passed. If she is really stuck on this guy, the outcome Elise wants could only come from Susan’s advice. Though, I’m sorry to say, I am not holding out much hope for it.
In my observation, if a guy is ready to marry he will let you know. You could be the most giving, beautiful, fabulous woman in the world, but if he’s not ready it doesn’t make a darn bit of difference. You can’t convince someone to fall that far into love with you. It has to come from them.
“In some states they will be moving towards a common-law marriage if it lasts long enough.”
I’m pretty sure that you normally have to hold yourself out as husband and wife.
Common law marriage is going away anyway, generally.
Maybe he’s already feeling safe and secure being himself, and he’s doing his Due Diligence to decide whether or not to consider escalating the commitment.
Look, the only way she’s going to know is to demonstrate her willingness to commit herself — with her heart, not just her keychain. She needs to test him, too. It took years for Mrs. Ironwood to discover all the horrors in the murky depths of my soul. The Ice Dancing alone took her months to recover from.
This is time to put on your best personal marketing plan. Make it a good one.
“In fact, much of the time women have sex for the first time with a guy, they have not asked anything about his intentions, they go with the flow, cross their fingers, and hope for the best. It works out sometimes, but it’s a risky business.”
===
It’s funny that we would never risk our money with those odds, but our hearts and bodies…. It’s like we want to hang on to every last second of potential happy-ending instead actually knowing where things stand, and the possibility of having our illusions shattered.
It makes me so sad that people that people are willing to put up with stuff they would NEVER stand for if it was happening to someone they cared about (family member, BFF, etc).
I
@ Jackie “In my observation, if a guy is ready to marry he will let you know.”
Not necessarily. Actually, the ones who let you know, say in the first few dates, that’s a red flag. Premature commitment is ugly. Guys have a long time to consider such things, comparatively speaking, and the fact that he isn’t ready to marry now doesn’t mean he won’t be absolutely smitten with the idea in two years. It all depends on the woman.
Just like women are sexually reactive to the displays of men, men react commitment-wise to the displays of women.
@Susan
That explains it.
“I keep telling “my girls” that if a guy is thinking of a relationship, he’ll be delighted if the woman brings that up as part of the decision to have sex. ”
Yeah sex has become “no big deal”, particularly as a determinant of relationship status/progression and it seems that cohabitation is following closely behind. We can have a FWB situation and feel good about that as long as we are getting what we want/need (or tricking ourselves into believing that we are), so why not a roommate with benefits? why not play house for a while?
This isn’t exactly the case here, but the move-in did seem to set a certain tone; one that may not have reflected the depth of the relationship from her perspective and one that certainly did not involve a marriage discussion. It was the progression of sleeping over every night – “why are we paying two rent/mortgages, we should just move in” instead of “we are in love, we want to be together all of the time and want to build a future together.”
Its the “why buy the cow” thing but it also highlights the fact that it can be problematic to emulate all of the aspects of marriage without the actual alignment of beliefs and commitment to make those a shared beliefs reality.
“We had a discussion about it and he told me he’d never said it to a girl before and I told him it was very important to me to hear it on a regular basis.”
They are in love, but I’m suspicious of his feeling pressure about stating such. Its not a terribly complex thing to say. I get the pressure to discuss marriage or awkwardness of discussing sexual past/preferences, but what’s with the L word?
If he is “closed-off emotionally”, how did she form an emotional bond with him? Is he selectively closed-off? Does he say really sweet, intimate things like “I am grateful for you” “so happy to be with you” etc. but just won’t say the L word? Or is it all actions? If so, she fell in love with his actions so maybe she needs to be ok with not hearing the words. Or she fell in love with her image of him = Trouble.
Part of me thinks the pressure he feels is because he knows that she is over her skis, that they are basically in a marriage situation and there is an emotional investment-power-vulnerability imbalance. While he is getting what he wants he also knows that she is not, so he turns it on her straight away. He doesn’t have to say “you are pressuring me”, he need only state that he “feels pressure”. He might not be directly accusing her, but she owns it nonetheless. I’d feel kind of selfish if I was in his shoes.
His position on declaring his love = “feels pressure” + “can see a future”.
The first one is his answer, the second part is because he knows what she wants.
His position on marriage = “I don’t think so” + “maybe at some point”
The first part is his answer, the second part is because he knows her answer.
“…his actions imply that he is in love with me”
I believe that actions can say a lot, but she has said that she needs him to say it. If he loves her, he will say it even it if hurts him – or whatever – to do so; THAT is love. I’m more of an actions type guy too but the only time I’ve had trouble saying it is when I just didn’t feel it. And even in those cases my actions were viewed as being loving. I may be a bit overly cynical but I think the divorced parents thing is getting too much weight here. Something else is going on. Maybe time will cure it and her great wife-like support will get him through it, but it kind of seems like she really wants him to be something that he just might not be.
I think Elise should ask why he feels that way about marriage. It may be nothing personal at all—blame the family law system.
These no-marriage/cohab with children arrangements are highly correlated with socialist welfare states and feminism, so Elise’s BF may have been systematically trained to think that his position is progressive, cosmopolitan, and very “Scandinavian.”
Re: break ups. This is probably impossible to find, but I wonder if the majority of co-hab break-ups are still initiated by women, as divorces are. If the co-hab break-up initiation rates were closer to 50/50, that actually might have interesting ramifications. Ideally you’d also have to take the probabilities of each times their respective costs to men and women involved (i.e., divorce might be less frequent but far more destructive when it does occur).
It would also be interesting to see if the co-hab break-up statistics include the percentage for co-hab w/ children.
“They are in love, but I’m suspicious of his feeling pressure about stating such. Its not a terribly complex thing to say. I get the pressure to discuss marriage or awkwardness of discussing sexual past/preferences, but what’s with the L word?”
To me, it always meant, I have now decided to permanently emotionally bond with you and that I am going to marry you.
Granted, I don’t really have half measures.
I’m either 100% or 0%, and only when I’m 95% certain of success (meaning that unless I have really misread something, I’m not going to fail).
I was in a relationship where I refused to say “I love you.” In fact, this was almost all of my relationships.
@Ian I.
Ian, I didn’t mean it literally. I think intentions aligned with actions are very important. Also: where you are in life.
I can definitely see undergrads having a longer timeline and less self-knowledge than someone who has been out in the world, working and living a life.
Some men may need years and years to be certain but that is a risky strategy, as a woman of high worth with an aim towards marriage won’t sit around and wait indefinitely. Take Hope’s example: She was the one who ended up with a happy marriage and family and the guy is still out there alone.
@Tasmin
+1 (as usual
)
This comment really summed it up:
“Its the “why buy the cow” thing but it also highlights the fact that it can be problematic to emulate all of the aspects of marriage without the actual alignment of beliefs and commitment to make those a shared beliefs reality.”
===
It’s like hoping the lines between “playing house” and “committed to marriage” will somehow blur together seamlessly. Things tend to be a little more cut and dried than that, again, in my observation.
@Tasmin
“I believe that actions can say a lot, but she has said that she needs him to say it. If he loves her, he will say it even it if hurts him – or whatever – to do so; THAT is love.”
If she’s willing to blow the possibility of a beautiful life-long relationship because she isn’t willing to show him some level of accomodation at this early stage of the game, then perhaps he’d be better off without her. An Alpha leads, and prefers a woman who can accept his leadership and be strong, not challenge it. She knows it’s a big deal to both of them, and yet she presses and frets over a word, when there are far more important issues (to him) of concern, then she’s giving him good reasons to doubt giving up the C-card. His use of the word would be a measure of his commitment to the relationship as it grew stronger over time — but forcing it before he is ready and willing to say it naturally is an unacceptable intrusion, an attempt to dictate how and when he expresses himself.
That’s a lot bigger deal than you might think. Many men who consider marriage — and some of the best men who consider marriage — see saying the L-word as a token of commitment in and of itself. Therefore he spends them like coins of great value, only when he feels genuinely moved. “I love you” is one of those things that people (particularly women) use all-too-casually for a lot of us. The word “Love” means something very, very deep and sincere to that kind of man, and it’s not the silly flutter in romance novels– that’s infatuation, not love, and he knows it.
When he feels love — the genuine and spontaneous feeling where your fundamental happiness is dependent upon the happiness of another — real love, he will say it — and it will mean something. But if he feels compelled or pressured in the slightest, he sees it as a betrayal of his love to be forced to express it until he’s damn good and ready.
Seriously, ladies, why do y’all find excuses to mess up a good thing? The drama? The excitement? The ice cream? This dude is STERLING. She lucked out beyond the dreams of mortal woman. And now she’s looking for a reason to screw that up, because . . . because . . . because she can’t control how he expresses his love. That’s not good enough for her.
So why should he leap into a commitment with a woman who’s willing to cut and run about that?
I would second Susan’s advice here. This man sounds a lot like the man who eventually became my husband – though I will say we did go through an intense period before he was willing to commit. This man sounds like a keeper and that he is demonstrating commitment without saying the words. How he treats his siblings is a really good indicator of his sense of loyalty and how he would treat his wife. He is also like my husband in that he is very independent. Independent people need their space and they do not appreciate overly needy people. The more you crowd him, the more you will push him away. But if you respect his space, he will love you more for it. If you are a needy person, you’ll have to own that and either find a person who will feed that need or learn to be more independent yourself. If I might say, this relationship is still young yet and you moved in together quite quickly. Give it time. In the meantime, demonstrate your qualities as a wife. Don’t issue ultimatums. But if you do reach a point where you feel you either need to move towards marriage with him or cut your losses and run, be honest with him. Don’t threaten; just be honest that that is the choice you both are faced with. It may be a difficult time you will go through together, but if you have demonstrated to the best of your ability what your life would be like together as married, he will know clearly what his choices are.
@Yah-Halo:
“In the interest of my comment not being deleted as usual, I leave any conclusions about Game’s effectiveness and PUAs’ understanding of the female psyche and how attraction works, in the readers’ hands.”
Game works in many ways for many different people for different purposes. In this case, I think Elise’s dude is actually running pretty tight relationship Game — he met her, vetted her, courted her, did a thorough background check, boinked her, decided it might have a future, and proceeded to cohabitation as per cultural imperative. The ultimate goal of Game is dependent upon the man — and Elise’s guy is looking for a wife, even if he’s not ready to admit that yet.
Mistaking the desperate pleas of a girl for a girl who is enthralled in a mating dance does not suit a man well.
@Jackie
This is so true. So often women feel inadequate when the guy doesn’t fall head over heels. (I imagine it’s the same for men?) They take responsibility for not being “enough.” The truth is, there are other things that go into the mix. Timing, history, that person’s feelings about themselves, about relationships.
A lot of the support I offer to people winds up being simply pointing out that the fact that someone did not decide to jump off that cliff head over heels does not say anything about them as a person, their value, or how lovable they are. I’d rather assume it has nothing to do with me, lol, and chalk it up to their stuff.
@Jackie
Definitely – it’s about the fantasy being realized. A woman actually said to me, “I want a rom com ending!” This was after the guy had started acting flaky without explanation – she was hoping he’d knock on her door and say “You are my exception.” In reality, the odds of Justin Long doing that were actually higher than the real guy doing it.
Once she accepted that it was done, of course she could go back and see where she’d projected and idealized him to a degree that made it fiction.
“A woman actually said to me, “I want a rom com ending!” This was after the guy had started acting flaky without explanation – she was hoping he’d knock on her door and say “You are my exception.” ”
I want a hot pepperoni pizza to appear at the door of my office right about now.
@BB
I recall reading that 75% of cohabs with children do break up, but I couldn’t find that stat today. I agree that we need a lot more information about cohabitation. It’s growing as a choice even as the marriage rate declines. Pew Research surveys show that Millennials place a higher priority on having children than getting married – that suggests more cohabitation in the future. I suspect many researchers are busy as we speak, and there’s probably a lot more info out there that I just didn’t have time to research for this post.
@Ian
She is hardly willing to cut and run! She hanging in there, asking for advice on the best way to make this work, and trying to get a handle on whether her concerns are valid.
I do not agree that this is about drama. We may question her decision to move in with him, but the truth is that a man’s ability to demonstrate love is extremely important to women. Choose a guy who is never going to get there, and you’ve got kids with no support from dad. You stuck it out and now his attention and resources are being directed elsewhere.
This is not a game Elise is playing – she should be worried. The only way this scenario is justifiable is his personal family trauma, IMO. That’s the reason I am encouraging her to be patient.
Otherwise I’d be agreeing with those who say that a guy who admits he loves you at 9 months but never says it again is not a keeper.
@Jade
Thanks for sharing your personal experience.
I have to say, it is such a joy to see you!
(Jade is an early, early reader of HUS – she goes back to when traffic was 50 or 100 people a day, lol.)
Knowing you still read from time to time is so gratifying. I hope all is well with you!
Didn’t read all the comments, but I’ve been in a long term relationship with a man like this and I would never do it again. Being in a relationship with someone who “won’t let you in” will lead to a relationship that is lacking in intimacy and closeness. Why waste time on a guy that will ultimately lead to a subpar relationship because he won’t “let you in”, when there are men who are more emotionally available? My .02
lol really? You deleted that one? I literally just cut and pasted her words, some definitions that are freely available all over the Internet, and your own words.
wow…just wow. lol
Susan, I agree with you that she should try her best to show her love and devotion. But I personally don’t think it’s going to go too well unless she can really relax and not pressure him at all. Even then, the question of “why buy the cow” looms large. There’s a fundamental values mismatch if a man views marriage through a dark lens.
As an aside, the ENTJ guy I mentioned was also a very stand-up guy, a gentleman with a good heart, conscientious, lots of friends, respectful to women, single digit N. Also from a divorced family in which the father remarried, loves his sibling, and he was closer to the mother. That was the parallel. He, too, was very wary of marriage. For good reason, yes, as other men have mentioned.
But as Jackie said, I didn’t wait around for him. It would have been foolish.
Reading all the comments, I think Ian makes the most sense. Everything this guy has done so far in deeds shows that he does care for her immensely. He introduced her to his family and friends and brought her into his home. You don’t do that with women you’re just boinking on the side. Just because he won’t mouth some word that’s been demonstrated to be meaningless in pretty much every failed relationship doesn’t mean squat.
With his history of a broken family and how he apparently took care of his younger siblings, not to mention a demonstrated ability at being responsible enough to have a career and buy a house, I can’t imagine he would ever consider bringing a child into the world out of wedlock. If he suffered as much as it seems he did from the divorce and fallout and has such a sterling reputation, I find it hard to believe he would do that to his future offspring.
This is the brave new world women wanted; intelligent men don’t have to commit to get sex. They can be far more discriminating with their future wives. It sounds like he’s a smart guy and he’s playing the hand this world has dealt him to make sure he doesn’t end up like his parents.
“That didn’t sound right. We had a big argument here because some guys wanted or even expected girlfriends to come over, do their laundry, clean their bathroom, etc. after spending the night. I said that was outrageous, and things got pretty heated. I then said that when two people live together, they should expect to share chores, including laundry, etc. ”
Got heated?! SRSLY? Why would/should anyone expect their girlfriend/boyfriend to come over and clean their bathroom and do laundry? That is outrageous. And I’m absolutely sure NO ONE does that.
@IanIronwood
You are projecting a bit into the situation, slow it down, his (arguable) Alpha-ness does not entitle him to a universe that bends to his needs.
“If she’s willing to blow the possibility of a beautiful life-long relationship because she isn’t willing to show him some level of accomodation at this early stage of the game, then perhaps he’d be better off without her.”
9 months may be “early” for him, but he should have considered that when he asked her to move in. If he wanted some “space” or to take it slow, moving in was a stupid thing to do. He has been in control of the pacing and it has worked for him – he has gotten what he has wanted the entire way. Now he feels pressure. What guy, Alpha or not, doesn’t realize what kind of emotional escalation cohabitation implies? That’s why it feels like hedging to me. He gladly accepts the benefits but any emotional responsibility that may fall on him becomes “pressure” from her.
“An Alpha leads, and prefers a woman who can accept his leadership and be strong, not challenge it.”
She has followed his lead from day 1. The ability to understand the needs of others and make the tough choices – often at the expense of the self, are essential skills of a leader. He isn’t leading, he is accepting – something quite different.
“…but forcing it before he is ready and willing to say it naturally is an unacceptable intrusion, an attempt to dictate how and when he expresses himself.”
He has already said it. If he is so damn Alpha, how does a woman – obviously with a less important career and feelings and needs that are subordinate to his career and outside needs ["...she presses and frets over a word, when there are far more important issues (to him) of concern."] FORCE him to say it before he is “ready”?
He’s either withholding or he lied the time he said it, which kind of makes him a pussy. Either way, she’s not dictating – she is communicating her needs and expectations. ["I told him it was very important to me to hear it on a regular basis"] That is how a relationship works. He hasn’t returned the same in terms of what works for him, but rather this: “When I mentioned this he said recently he’d been feeling pressure to say it and that when he feels pressured he tends to back off and not do things.” Which doesn’t sound like a leader or an alpha to me.
“That’s a lot bigger deal than you might think.”
Dude I get it. I’m one of those guys too. The L word is a big deal. Im 39 and I’ve told it to two women. I waste very few words and am a man of action myself. But he’s already said it and his actions may say a lot, but she has also told him that actions are not enough. I think there is room for both of them to get out of their comfort zones and work on this, but its not fair to assume expressing love is less of a “deal” for her than for him or that expressing his emotions requires navigating the depths of an emotional labyrinth on the way to enlightenment and hers are just trite chirping.
“This dude is STERLING. She lucked out beyond the dreams of mortal woman.” “And now she’s looking for a reason to screw that up, because . . . because . . . because she can’t control how he expresses his love. That’s not good enough for her.”
Whoa. He’s good looking (according to her) with a high-powered job. Despite what some might say, there are plenty of those guys out there. He may be “sterling” to you and maybe he is a catch, but that doesn’t mean that he is right for her. And we don’t know how sterling she is. In fact her story goes out of the way to point out his qualities – in a way she is defending him, building him up as an Alpha, success, with a difficult family history that he approached honorably. He is letting her down and she is working overtime to rationalize his behavior, apologizing in advance. That is a long way from a woman that is trivializing or demanding or taking anything for granted. Not good enough? Ha, part of her problem is that she has him on a pedestal.
I think she messed up, she went along for the ride – followed his lead and now she realizes that she actually wants/needs something more. Bad strategy. But he is an equal party to that. They both invited a level of emotional investment and intimacy that they were not prepared to reciprocate and/or support according to the needs/expectations of the other person.
Just because the revelation of those needs/expectations came after the escalations, does not make those things less relevant or free from responsibility. She may have to table her needs and give him more time, comfort, etc. but she needs what she needs and that is unlikely to go away. Its no different than other dimensions of a relationship in terms of compatibility. One or both will figure out fairly quickly what really matters to them. My gut says there is a bit more going on here, but I hope it works out that he is just a bit walled off and her feminine charms will disarm his defenses.
“An Alpha leads, and prefers a woman who can accept his leadership and be strong, not challenge it.”
How is “not challenging” being “strong”?
Bottomline: The dude in this scenario is getting free milk without buying the cow. And not only is the milk free, its non-GMO, 100% organic from a young, beautiful grass fed cow.
Elsie the Cow better start grazing in greener pastures.
“Too much of an alpha” is not what I read in Elise’s description of this fellow. He sounds indecisive and fearful, if anything: four dates to a kiss, three more to sex (at which point she admits she was getting impatient), the slow progression with the family stuff and the moving in, spending every day together for nearly a year. And then the whole episode with the I<3Y (which sounds like it was an attempt to take her own temperature on things as much as anything) and him following her lead on that… I think that this guy, probably as a result of his unfortunate family history, is choking and being too boringly predictable, which is anything but Alpha, and Elise's need for passion and excitement hasn't been getting met. The hot fires of early sexual attraction and energy are dying out while they start to play house, but at the same time, she doesn't yet have any clear signs of commitment and stability to sustain a bunch of "Old Relationship Energy" type feelings yet. She loves this guy though, so she's rationalizing her first step out the door.
Thomas, ” The hot fires of early sexual attraction and energy are dying out while they start to play house, but at the same time, she doesn’t yet have any clear signs of commitment and stability to sustain a bunch of “Old Relationship Energy” type feelings yet.”
Wow. I think you just tapped into what MANY live-in couples might be experiencing. The hot fires of the pre-move in dating period have died out but there is no sure certainty in living together that they will marry, nor is there a previous history of sticking it out though the tough times behind them. Basically there is no real bond, just domesticity. And they stay together “just because”.
Wow. Its a twilight zone. Feet are neither on land nor in sky.
and THIS is why i’m able to keep a harem.
i am UP FRONT with women BEFORE we ever sleep together. i’m especially open with younger women since i know they may be more relationshiop minded. i let them know, “i’m NEVER getting married.”
and you KNOW i mean that. the younger ALWAYS think, they are going to be the one that changes my mind. and again, eventually when it comes up, she has no argument. and i have ZERO guilt.
As others have pointed out, she has already gone all-in. The time to consider these issues was really before sex or moving in with him.
That being said, this guy sounds like a real catch (as others have also pointed out). He didn’t pump and dump. He didn’t push for sex on the first, second, or even third date. And given his reluctance about marriage, asking her to move in sounds like quite a bit of commitment from him already. He is a serious dude.
He has even expressed his love for her. Don’t blow by over-analyzing his feelings! My wife tells me probably 100 times a week that she loves me. If I followed Roissy’s 3:2 rule, I’d be telling her the same roughly 60-70. But that just seems way to0 much to me (as someone who swallowed the red pill and saved my marriage in the process). I tell her quite a bit (actually, a lot) less, and mean it every time, and she savors it more too.
He clearly cares for her deeply, and she can assuage whatever reservations he has by keeping cool and being fully invested in the relationship, since she’s already all-in. Be friendly, be feminine, don’t bitch. Stop with the intentional withholding expressions of love because he does so uninentionally.That’s bad form and unattractive. If you feel it, say it. Maybe less, if you’d like. But say it. In short, run girl game.
From the sound of it, this guy has serious game (and thus is extremely attractive to her), and she better not blow it by pushing too hard or expressing too much doubt about his feelings or intentions.
Feel free to discuss longer-term aspects of the relationship that are important to you (like marriage or children) but with no pressure or expectations. Maybe he can explain his reluctance to marry. If he does, and does so in way you can address, work on yourself to prove that you are worthy of that commitment from him. Again, with no pressure. You’re already in the relationship and would be hit hard by a breakup regardless of whether it’s now or two years from now.
@hope
I love my wife and my children. I hate to say “I love you”. I hate to speak about my feelings. Somehow, it’s easier for me to write it. I also prefer to kiss my wife and do something for her, instead of saying “i love you”.
I understand that the females may need to her “I love you” more, but it’s like I would write The chick has serious issues if he refuses to even go oral on him.
@everyone
interesting thought, even if rather highly improbable, based on cycle of article on hbd site of evo and proud – since we know that some parasites are able to modify the hosts behaviour (human hosts too, that is) – what if cad-like behaviour (the desire for a lot and lot of casual sex) is really just a STD?
it looks like guy is quite attractive and has good amount of natural game.
however, i think he is simply unaware of that on consinous level. he is 27, he is still in pre-player age. in her best interest is to commit him fast, before he understands his value.
i have been is the same place, but dodged the marriage bullet (not sure if that was good or bad think)
i will say she has to commit him in next 1-2 years or he is gone looking for better woman
Got here a bit late! Thank you all for your comments, they have been incredibly helpful.
I would like to address some points, I’ll start with the questions raised about me:
My number: 7, including him. I’ve had three relationships, 3 years, 9 months and just over 1 year. The other 3 guys were guys I was dating (ranging from 2 weeks to 3 months) so I do not consider myself promiscuous and I have told him that I’m not so that shouldn’t be an issue.
SMV: I’d say our SMV is pretty similar. I’m beautiful and intelligent, I have an MSc and a good job at a good company. I’m in good shape and have friends and hobbies that keep my busy. His SMV is however higher than my previous boyfriend’s so that is probably contributing to my insecurities. I’m used to men falling head over heels in love with me and I’ve usually been the one to slow things down.
I liked the “Scandinavian” comment from Bastiat as we are indeed both Scandinavian! Moving in together is always a big deal but I think it is regarded as a much smaller step here than in the US and yes, since we are currently living together there is not much I can do about that at this point and I’m pretty sure moving out would end the relationship.
Regarding children, he does want them (three of them).
I think part of the whole “marriage” problem is our background. I come from a family where my parents are happily married and hardly any of my friends’ parents have gotten divorced. He, however, has divorced parents and many, if not most, of his friends’ parents are divorced. He has said that it’s not that he is against marriage as such but he’s seen what divorce can do to the couple and their children so he wants to avoid that and not get married. Personally I believe and brake-up/divorce when you have children is going to be messy whether you are married or not and I would like to have the safety of knowing that the man I do have children with is at least planning to stick around forever and that is why marriage is important to me. I don’t need a massive wedding and if he did say he wanted to be with me forever but still doesn’t want to get married that is something I could work with. Obviously, I do not expect him to know this after 9 months but I would like the relationship to progress in that direction and for me, saying I love you is part of that…but from what some of you have said maybe not as important as I thought.
It has been 2 months since I posted this in the forum and I’d say things are pretty much the same, he is very obviously trying which I think is a good thing. I think that currently the main problem is me because I have had a hard time deciding how much time to give this before I open it up for discussion again. I’ve spent a lot of time (probably way too much) analyzing the situation and this has led to me closing off a bit.
Reading your post Susan, as well as the comments, has definitely made me realize that the situation may not be as bad as I think. It was great to hear from the men that said they have trouble saying the L-word, definitely gives me hope that things aren’t as bad as I think. I also liked Ian’s comments a lot…He made some very good points, and my boyfriend does indeed know that he is a catch – but I know that I am as well which is partly why I’ve been thinking about where this is going because I know that I can get a great man (which I think he is) and would like to do so in time to have children, preferably, before I turn 30 so I don’t have much time to waste. And that is my main worry, because I feel I don’t get enough from him emotionally I’m worried that I will waste too much time and wake up in 3 years and realize that he either never really loved me or that he will never be able to give me the emotional security I want in a relationship.
So bottom line (to this extremely long comment!): I agree that 9 months is not enough time and think that I would like to focus on just being optimistic, enjoying our time together and letting the relationship continue to develop for at least 6 months and see where things stand then and hopefully things will have progressed naturally.
Hi Elise,
My story was quite similar, but from guys side. I have been 27yrs old and dating same age girl. It was my first true relationship with a good girl (her sex partners no was 4 and I believe that it was true).
However, after dating her for 18+ months I was no longer attracted as much as before. Circumstances decided I was moving somewhere else – I want to take her with me, but she declined.
Now I realize I have grown much more in value (gym, personal career, mindset, etc.) and I don’t have problems with getting young and pretty women for a relationship (I am not fond with pump&dump). And my choice is much wider.
I am afraid the same might happen with your bf. You have some time to catch him (yes, I use the word catch) before he becomes aware of his value. As you describe him he has good qualities, you probably might want to get pregnant asap.
As for L-word – some guys say it some don’t. I will not put much pressure on that.
Comment edited to remove link
YaReally,
I consider you a troll because you’re always peddling PUA. I don’t know why, because I have no problem with Game – I’m not a hater nor a denier. I think it’s a useful tool for many men. I don’t respect men or women who have sex as a career, so I’m not particularly interested in your lifestyle or your sharing it with my readers.
If you ever leave a comment (like this one) that does not relate the actions of normal people to the PUA handbook, I’ll let it stand.
@Hope
This is my primary fear. It saddens me, because so many people are children of divorce, and those whose parents had an extremely acrimonious separation really do pay for it for many years down the road. The most promiscuous girl in my focus groups, whom I love dearly, is the product of a situation much like Elise’s bf. I pray that she will in time be able to have a normal, functional relationship.
I don’t know to what degree this explains Elise’s situation. Nor do I know whether she can change his view.
szopen
Very much the same! A lot of guys nowadays would find it a serious dealbreaker. Imagine if the girlfriend put her mouth on him only once ever, and then refused to again, sayings she felt pressured, it isn’t something she wants to do, and basically never does it again. I would think a lot of men would be advising “move on” as well. I’d also think that “she has serious issues” wouldn’t be out of the question.
Elsie
knowing that you are both Scandinavian does indeed change things. In Europe, more and more couples do have children without being married, and their rate of splitting up is less than cohabitation with children in the US. However, you should not compromise on what you want, especially since you want to get married before 30 and as you said, you don’t have much time to waste. Waiting around for a man to open up to you emotionally is fine if you are similarly reserved, but you sound like you are more passionate. That will not change even if you manage to get him to marry you. Do you always want to be feeling this way?
If you end the relationship, you will know his true feelings regarding you, at least if you make it clear that you are ending it because you are not getting what you need. I have seen a couple who lived together (they were living in a large US city, but French and Norway nationals) break up and get back together, because they really did love each other. So there is that. At some point you do have to issue that ultimatum.
When I was 25, I moved on from a man that I thought I was “in love” with, but who didn’t give me emotionally security. I described him above as “ENTJ.” I am now head over heels in love with my husband of 3 years as well as our sweet little boy baby, and I’m not yet 30. At the time, it was really scary to venture into the unknown, but I knew that I wasn’t getting what my heart truly desired. Had I listened to the men in the manosphere at the time, I would have operated out of fear and waited for many more months in agony.
I wish you the best of luck. Staying for another 6 months (though it has already been 2 months!) to see where things stand then is a way to see if he will “shit or get off the pot” –vulgar American expression but I feel it is appropriate here. This expression also implies that he, by failing to act, is preventing you from acting. And remember, if you are truly enjoying your time together, you would not feel this way. If you choose to settle for less, you cannot blame him for giving you less.
Escoffier
“I don’t believe that nine months is too early to talk marriage, but be that as it may, once you’re cohabitating, that’s definitely NOT too early to talk marriage. In fact, you shouldn’t even contemplate cohabitation unless you know the other party shares your view of marriage.”
3,000%
Reminds me of the episode of Mad Men when Joan told Peggy that her boyfriend was going to propose, and then he asked to move in instead. Here’s a recap. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_VMk62tO7k (first 2 minutes). There should be a manual about when to discuss marriage though, since most girls won’t even bring it up (they are scared of the answer). I wonder if 6 months is ok…
@Maven3: I have actually read that post before and realize I am at the point where my SMV is decreasin. I believe that is one of the main reasons I worry about this relationship. If I were 21 I’d have no problem giving it a few years and seeing what happened but I am not in that position any more.
Another few quotes that helped me very much back when I was 25:
“A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct.”
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
“To accept a little death is worse than death itself.”
“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”
“You cannot change someone else. You can only change yourself.”
@Hope
I absolutely understand your point and I have thought about the fact that by staying in the relationship I am keeping myself off the market and may be missing out on something great. But at the moment I don’t feel that we’ve truly come to a point where I can confidently break up and never look back.
@Elise
Thanks so much for adding in some details. I think you have your head on straight, and you need to keep working on the relationship by being the best partner you can be. Definitely don’t close yourself off – that is a defensive move, and while it is quite natural, I think, it’s also going to send the relationship in a bad direction by decreasing intimacy and trust. If he senses he is not making you happy, I fear he will bail.
At the same time, I do respect your needs and feel that they are reasonable. I would take the temperature of the relationship again in 6 months. If there has been progress, keep going. If not, you may need to express your needs again, as Tasmin described.
Re your SMV, while it’s true that you’ve reached the peak of your fertility and beauty, you’re not going to change into an old crone overnight. Some men are particularly invested in the idea of women hitting the wall at 30, as exemplified by statements such as “you are aging rapidly.” For my part, I suspect you will remain an extremely attractive prospect for some time. The bigger concern is fertility, which you focus on, appropriately.
I thought you were American, or I would not have dwelled on cohabitations stats in the US, which I believe are quite different than your own. You Scandinavians speak and write English so well I am routinely fooled! I know your SMP is quite different than ours, but I’m glad you’ve benefited from the perspective of some readers here. In fact, there are one or two Scandinavians sprinkled in the bunch
Best of luck with the relationship – keep us posted if you feel like it!
“An Alpha leads, and prefers a woman who can accept his leadership and be strong, not challenge it.”
Idunno……depends on what alpha means (it differs in the manosphere to what I’ve seen of alphas in real life). Any gamma can buy a gun or have non-monogamous sex with lowest value women.
Half the alphas I know of seem to like batshit crazy women because they keep things interesting, and are controllable to a degree. I don’t doubt that media plays a hand in promoting dysfunctional relationships as “exciting”, and healthy relationships as “boring”.
@Elise
This is key, IMO, and I think this has a lot to do with personality traits. I know I would risk it all and see it through, one way or the other. If I didn’t I’d always, always wonder “what if.” But I am a person who is comfortable with change and taking risks.
And again, re your age – in the US the average age at marriage for an educated woman is 28. That’s the mean. For a woman with a master’s degree, it’s 30. You are 26 years old, you have time. I don’t think that approaching this with a mindset of time running out is a good idea.
1 2 »