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The Least Expensive Makeover You’ll Ever Find

Doghouse

 

http://thedoghousediaries.com/4801

  • Erik L

    Amusing but I think the intersection of these sets is, in reality, much larger. Most people, when being honest with themselves, understand the overwhelming majority of what the opposite sex finds attractive. The rest of it is obsessing over marginal issues. I also think I disagree with most of the things on the “what men find attractive side”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also think I disagree with most of the things on the “what men find attractive side”.

      I’m not surprised, I figured there would be some disagreement. FTR, here’s what the artist wrote below the comic:

      Some of you may dispute an item here or there, but otherwise I’m pretty sure this is accurate. -Ray

      It seems that men vary quite a bit in their preferences.

  • Jonny

    I think women do know what men like. Its just that they refuse to go there.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    Yeah, I’d include “fellatio obsession” in that middle category.

  • Maggie

    I’ve never understood why women “wearing a guy’s things” is considered attractive. They hide a woman’s waist. I feel sorry for the women who work at places like the DMV and have to wear a man’s uniform. They are so ill-fitting: too big in the waist, too small in the hips and butt and the belts are too big. They’ve got to be uncomfortable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think guys like seeing their own girls wearing their things. It’s about possession and marking territory. The best example of this is probably the 1950s uniform of wearing a guy’s letter jacket and class ring on a chain when you were “going steady.”

  • Anne

    @Maggie
    I assume they’re referring to wearing a guy’s t-shirt (and nothing else) in the morning.
    I find that a bit of a cliché though. Still think great lingerie is better.

  • Scipio Africanus

    I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary.

      Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.

      Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.

      In general, I would say that young women wear too much makeup. A strong smoky eye during the daytime, or heavy eyeliner in an office environment is not appropriate – it’s too obviously sexual in that context. Vamping it up for seduction is fun, but it’s not for everyday wear, IMO. It also has the unfortunate effect of leaving nowhere to go. We keep upping the ante to make female appearance more sexual in every day life.

      There was a time when a scrubbed face and a glimpse of stockinged ankle passed the boner test. We’ve lost all sense of subtlety.

  • HanSolo

    @Anne

    It’s not that she looks good in his shirt but that it shoes that she’s “his” in some way.

    The lingerie of course looks better, especially if I bought it for her.

  • HanSolo

    @shows, not shoes!

  • Anne

    @HanSolo
    Yes that’s what I assumed, perhaps along with the fact that his clothes will look big on her, making her look petite/feminine and making him feel masculine?

    I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage?

      I know you read Rules Revisited – Andrew has a real thing for dangly earrings. I think anything that draws the eye to a fertility feature, e.g. feminine jaw, full lips, cleavage, is going to be popular with men. Jewelry does that. I suspect most men would say they couldn’t care less about a woman’s watch or bangle bracelets.

  • HanSolo

    @Anne

    I’m thinking back to when girls have worn mine and it really was the best if she would say something along the lines of liking wearing my shirt so that it made me feel like she was mine. It did make her seem a bit vulnerable too with the oversized shirt.

    I personally love jewelry on a woman that could be described as “simple elegance.” Nothing too gaudy. So, yes, a nice silver or platinum necklace, with perhaps a sapphire pendant and matching sapphire earrings. Or gold… And a nice cleavage, accented by a necklace is well, nice. lol

  • Anne

    I will admit I find most the things in the pink circle great when done right – expect oversized sunglasses.
    Makeup definitely – when guys think a girl is wearing ‘too much makeup’, she’s just wearing the wrong kind. Also the more time you spend, the better it looks. Most likely this girl is wearing a LOT and it has taken a good hour to apply, but it still looks great (IMO):
    http://primped.ninemsn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Rosie-Huntington-Whiteley1.jpg
    I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      Your pic of the model looks fairly low key and natural. I think there’s a difference between using makeup to create a flawless natural look and using it to create a sexy look. In the states we have makeup companies that specialize in both. MAC Cosmetics was founded by a theater makeup artist, and the eyeshadows are extremely bright colors – the whole look is extremely dramatic and theatrical. Bobbi Brown or Laura Mercier are much more subtle – mostly neutrals and a focus on finish rather than color.

      Obviously, young women can get away with much more dramatic looks. I’ve gone with a more natural look as I’ve aged.

      FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).

  • HanSolo

    @Anne

    This is an example of earrings I do not like:

    http://www.polyvore.com/beaded_chandelier_earrings/thing?id=5732319

  • Tomato

    “It seems that men vary quite a bit in their preferences.”

    A good warning to those that assume men (and women) are monoliths!

  • J

    I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary

    Interesting comment. My own look has always been as natural as possible and my husband seems to like that, but “Wear make-up” is common advise to women from male commenters in the ‘sphere. Additionally, two of the female bloggers most popular with ‘spherians claim to have dyed their hair “porn star blonde” at their husbands request. These are women hailed by male commenters as the “ones who really get it,” so it’s hard to know just what you guys want. ;-)

  • Tomato

    (I wonder what a genders-reversed diagram would look like)

  • Jonny

    Personally, I hate it when my wife wears my clothes. I’m afraid she might get it dirtied, but she usually doesn’t so it is my irrational fear. The best thing is we wear our own clothes. Women tend to share their clothing, yet they still complain about it whether they borrow clothing without asking, or worse, if their friends do ask, and they really don’t want to share. Thankfully, I never asked my wife for that beautiful skirt that she has. Besides, I can’t fit in them.

    As for makeup, I think every woman should wear the minimum necessary makeup. I never suggest that women should wear no makeup. When I see those situations, it is obvious that many women need makeup. The difference is the amount of foundation and eye makeup. If you have bad skin, the makeup becomes more obvious.

  • J

    Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.

    Ha! You caught that too. You know, I’d bet there’s a correlation between the character of a relationship and the amount of make-up the man likes. It seems like the women at HUS who have strong, often more egaliterian, relationships, where there is a friendship (you, me) and/or shared spiritual thing (Hope) between the couple, keep it pretty natural I’d also guess that those women have prettier, as opposed sexier, lingerie (flowing, floral nighties vs crouchless panties and stripper heels) and wear lighter perfume if at all.

    Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.

    DH thinks he hates make-up and bitches if he sees me put it on. If it’s already on, he often just thinks I look a little nicer than usual. He hates dramatic make-up. If I’m dressed to the nines, I’ll wear a berry-colored lipstick. It’s way too obvious for him.

    @Han

    Fun earrings. A bit young for me, but I liked that sort of thing when I was younger.

  • Cooper

    @Anne
    Of course you find the stuff in the pink circle “great when done right” – you’re a girl.
    I have to admit, most of the stuff in the pink circle I don’t even notice. There’s a few things that may draw my eye to cleavage, as Susan mentioned about earring and necklaces, but other than that I’m not really taking note of of “pink-stuff” (if you will), and jewelry specifically.

    I’d suggest girls use the same rule as only highlighting one physical feature at a time, and not over do too many things at once. For example, tons of jewelry is going to signal being high maintenance and having expensive taste, to some men. (Perhaps more so than what you’d gain from drawing his eye)

    I’ve never, consciously that I can remember, ever liked a girl, over another, based on her amount of jewelry, or makeup. But I have consciously liked how one girl had, seemingly, less than another.

    “Also the more time you spend, the better it looks.”
    I’m not sure that’s the best rule of thumb.

    @Tomato
    Re: reversed diagram
    I was wondering the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course you find the stuff in the pink circle “great when done right” – you’re a girl.

      Touche! That’s even in the pink circle – stuff that girls think looks good.

  • J

    Random factoid–About 25 years ago, I read a survey of politics, sex and lingerie. Female Democrats slept in flannel nightgowns; female Republicans slept in sexier lingerie. Oddly, female Democrats had more sex with their husbands than female Republicans.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “We’ve lost all sense of subtlety.”

    In so many ways. Of course modesty is a good way to bring it back. And considering how rare the modest, subtle things are, I think many women would be pleasantly surprised how men respond to a woman who stands out – steps out – from the hyper-sexualized sheep-race of self-exposure. IMO, it shows a certain strength or confidence to go her own way and in a dull grey sea of boots-skirt-tank-scarf-handbag-huge sunglasses my eyes tend to seek out a bit of subtle style or novelty or mystery all on their own.

    E.g. I recently met a woman at a holiday party – the perfect venue for overdoing it. I can’t even remember exactly what she was wearing, but I do know that there was very little skin showing – but for her neck line and just a bit of shoulder. I wanted to trace her collarbone into next year. Either I’m crazy or some of those boner tests still work just fine; they just aren’t tested often enough.

    Oh, and she had on very little makeup and her only accessories (that I noticed) were little green earrings that, upon closer inspection, were actually frogs wearing berets. I got kudos for noticing them and thought they were a really cute contrast to her otherwise elegant presence. Turned out she is a Francophone. Her Dad gave them to her as a kind of joke. Sadly, she doesn’t live here and by now is back in Paris. Fingers crossed though, she’s applied to a PhD program in town.

    IMO, skin is ubiquitous these days; I want to wonder, imagine. Sure, there is a time and place for something racy, but I find that more attractive when it is for me alone, not a walking billboard for sex-culture trends. In the meantime, when in doubt, let off the gas.

    You mentioned the other day about women posing/faking for pictures. I can’t stand that. In fact, when looking through pictures with someone I am dating, I almost always point out the ones that may have caught them off guard or were taken without them knowing. There is just something more genuine, sweeter, about seeing someone in their natural state as opposed to some character-actor posing.

    The FB, pinterest, etc. obsession has taken over and now every moment is a potential way to advertise our awesomeness. A big part of the art of being subtle, of modesty itself, is to have faith that you are more than an image and that the people who really matter – or will matter – know that too. With the loss of subtlety, we’ve also lost discovery, which is part of what makes us feel alive and I think make for stronger bonds.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      I do know that there was very little skin showing – but for her neck line and just a bit of shoulder. I wanted to trace her collarbone into next year. Either I’m crazy or some of those boner tests still work just fine; they just aren’t tested often enough.

      Wow, that’s interesting. It sounds like if women were to hit the reset button, men really wouldn’t object. I think it all depends too on what men are looking for. One’s makeup and dress send signals, whether we realize it or not. A man who is interested in a STR will obviously seek clues that imply sexual experience and expertise. A sexy look does that. Men more LTR oriented will probably appreciate some sense of deliberate withholding of overt sexuality. This is a controversial topic – I’ve seen male bloggers say this is nonsense, and they just appreciate a good looking woman period, the sexier the better. I’m not so sure, as most of those bloggers are unattached.

      Sadly, she doesn’t live here and by now is back in Paris. Fingers crossed though, she’s applied to a PhD program in town.

      Oh, that does sound promising! I hope you will keep us posted, it sounds like the two of you had real chemistry.

      There is just something more genuine, sweeter, about seeing someone in their natural state as opposed to some character-actor posing.

      I agree. In fact, I’ve seen candid photos of women that were easily 1 or 2 points higher in SMV than ones of them giving a big fake smile for the camera. I’ve noticed that modeling portfolios are almost always of women not smiling. Not sure what the significance of that is, and I know that OKCupid says women who smile directly at the camera get more messages.

      With the loss of subtlety, we’ve also lost discovery, which is part of what makes us feel alive and I think make for stronger bonds.

      A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. She has seen him three times, no sex. He told her he was really glad she’d put on the brakes, so she asked me when she should go forward. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.” I said that I thought he’d made it clear he actually appreciated waiting, that delaying sex a bit will create anticipation and an opportunity for discovery. If he’s courting her, it’s not just about sex. If she explains she does not do casual (which is true) then that’s a good filter. He’ll either be interested in something more or he won’t.

      Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.

  • Anne

    I am probably influenced by other women, and the fact that I have dated a couple of men who prefer a really sophisticated look and DO like ‘expensive clothes’ (I am beginning to realize it’s not the norm).

    Susan, did you see the post on RR regarding men’s perception of women? Something about how “men have no clue why they find a woman hot”. Men have a tendency to just see a woman as “hot” and I believe that. They are not aware of all the things we do to make ourselves attractive. Which is why I am always skeptical of (straight) men giving advice on hair, makeup etc. I vary my makeup, clothes and hairdos a lot and I will check the response I get. But I believe a guy will mostly think “today she looks good” rather than being aware of the specifics. Same way they can see a woman with highlights and well-done makeup and think it is her natural hair colour and she’s makeup free.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      Men have a tendency to just see a woman as “hot” and I believe that. They are not aware of all the things we do to make ourselves attractive. Which is why I am always skeptical of (straight) men giving advice on hair, makeup etc

      It’s true, most men are not really qualified to give that kind of feedback. For example, my husband will say “You look lovely tonight” but he would never say, “I’d go a bit easier on the blush, but you might add a coat of mascara.” Never. When I put on makeup, I fill in my brows. To me, the difference is very noticeable, but Mr. HUS has never once in 30 years mentioned it. It’s usually a general thumbs up kind of response.

  • Sai

    Happy new year, you lot!

    If changing hair/makeup will improve a woman’s SMV, that’ll give the guy something nicer to look at and that’s better, right? (I’m scared of being too ‘simple’ because I’d feel plainer, and some simple things to me scream “boring/old lady!” But I’m not a guy.)

    What generally male interests are highest priority for women to learn about?

  • Emily

    >> “FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).”

    I think that strategy will only work for the very hottest women. One trait that I notice in many “beta females” is a flat-out refusal to play around with their appearance (ie. makeup, nice clothes etc.) Many of them eventually end up pairing up, but I think it’s DESPITE (rather than because of) the lack of effort they put into their appearance.

  • Erik L

    @Anne, with respect to jewelry I would say that if most of us like it, we don’t know it. You could probably set up some kind of blinded experiment and show whether we react better with or without it. I suspect it would have little effect.
    With respect to the idea that men like different things, of course that is true. But, stating that men find natural hair color and texture attractive is absurd. This guy is implying that no man prefers straight over curly, or blond over brown? I guess the reason is that if a guy likes blondes, he prefers it be real. That isn’t the same thing as finding the natural brunette more attractive than the dyed blonde. That strikes me as something we would like to think about ourselves, but is rarely true.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.”

    Yes! incongruence is a killer. This has happened to me more than once. It is frustrating because once that initial image takes hold it is really hard to put that cat back in the bag. And its worse when it is more than just the visual image, when they use language and stories and dabble in that shock-vulgar Chelsea Handler kinda vibe that they think says sexy-powerful-independent, but for me (LTR-oriented man) says: run.

    Your point about how all of this is also about what type of man, situation you wish to attract is spot on. Women can filter in more ways than they realize, but more importantly they need to be aware of that incongruence, if it is indeed the case. I know it must be tricky, to be sexy but in the “right” ways relative to what you are seeking to attract, but sometimes the right choice means limiting our options (exposure). It may not feel right at the time, but may save some heartache down the road.

    Many men are indeed singularly focused: sexy/hot or not, but I’m just not wired that way. I see the slutty look and sure the boner test works, but I’m not thinking “wife” either. The challenge is that in the SMP there is a race to the bottom in terms of attraction. STR attraction is the default gateway. So we’ve got a lot of potential for cat-back-in-the-bag situations.

    Maybe the younger men are more used to it and don’t have much to compare it to, but I grew up in an time where there was a lot more mystery and when looking “slutty” was a “bad” thing.

    There is also the challenge of the porn culture influence. At some point young women will have to decide how far they are willing to go to compete with the unrealistic images being absorbed – and in more ways than just their appearance. Strange how all of that empowerment seems to be just lowering the bar. Aside from players, sluts, and dirty old men at the bus-stop, I don’t see who is gaining from this trend.

  • Tomato

    Well, some men like a lot of makeup and some men don’t. The solutions for gals therefore are:

    1) change your behavior depending on the man in your life’s (or the man you want to be in your life’s) preferences.
    2) pick one or the other based on what you want and target/attract the men who like that.

    Same thing applies if you’re talking about men and facial hair. Simple!

  • Ted

    This is pretty good, plus/minus 2-3 items. I’m sure it varies from guy to guy (for some it must be spot on and for others off by a lot more), but I think in general it’s pretty good.

    @Susan 28
    I agree with you that LTR oriented men value selective chastity a lot more than overt sexuality. If done right it sends a signal of “easy for me, difficult for anyone else” that is exactly what a relationship minded guy is looking for. “Easy for everyone” signals, like showing lots of skin in public, are much more effective at attracting guys who want STRs.

  • Deli

    I really had an epiphany recently watching JennaMarbles videos.
    The contrast between “hair pulled back – glasses – no make up – sports bra” and “hair done – contacts – make up applied – dress” for me was earth shattering. The first combination makes her look like a regular teen boy. The second makes her look like a mid-level porn star. (I am saying that as a good thing – just so that you know)

    She also makes a great observation “Most people, who first introduced themselves to me during college daytime, later had to introduce themselves the second time when they met me again at some party – because they did not recognize me as being one and the same person! And the first thing they usually did after realizing that, was to look at my boobs and say “But where did these come from?!””

    So to finish the discussion about men and their preference in make up – it depends on a girl. To quote Jenna:
    “Of course you could try going for the natural look – but admit it, you are way too ugly to pull it off. Remember kids, there is no cure for ugly, but you can turn yourself into a human optical illusion.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deli

      That Jenna Marbles video is satire – you’re supposed to think she is disgusting by the end of her “makeover.” She actually does look very boyish and young with no makeup on, I think her regular look is somewhere in the middle.

  • Cooper

    “A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.””

    This is pretty much where I’m at.

    When you say, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR,” do you mean, literally, wait for him to do it?

    I’m so used to putting on the breaks, as a pre-cautionary measure, that having them put on, to give me a chase, seems like such a passive-slowfade (rejection). Which is probably why I called her flaky for so long.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      When you say, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR,” do you mean, literally, wait for him to do it?

      I realize that isn’t a very clear statement, and I probably shouldn’t have used the word “ride” haha. What I meant was, she should delay having sex with this man until they have agreed to be in an exclusive relationship. I think that’s what he is going for, so her making that a condition strengthens her position as LTR material. I think he will either readily accede to exclusivity or want to take more time re commitment but be willing to delay sex.

      FTR, this is not a price discrimination situation. This woman is 23, N = 3, all relationships. However, in the past she has been anxious about the timing of sex and has done the fingers crossed thing before actually having the convo. This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Is there a difference in how women dress for other women, as opposed to how women dress for men, and if so, why ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is there a difference in how women dress for other women, as opposed to how women dress for men, and if so, why ?

      Van Morrison thinks so:

      Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling
      Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling

      All the girls walk by, dressed up for each other
      And the boys, do the boogie-woogie
      On the corner of the street

  • Stickwick

    “I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.”

    Ask several men about this — I think you’ll be surprised to find that most men don’t agree.

    I used to highlight my hair to be much lighter than its natural dark blonde, thinking it was prettier that way. This was emphasized by my hairdresser — a homosexual — who would always say, “And now you’re beautiful again!” when he was done highlighting me each time. When I went back to my natural color, which my husband had never seen before, he surprised me by claiming he liked it much better without the highlights.

    Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stickwick

      Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.

      +1 on this whole comment.

      The dollars spent on conforming to fashion mag ideals, not to mention the eating disorders and those related costs, both financial and physical, is astounding.

  • Emily

    I think the best thing to do is to pay attention to the girls that the guys you like like. Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.

  • HanSolo

    @Stickwick

    It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.

    +10000000 :)

  • HanSolo

    A few highlights can be fine and what not but 90% of the time brunettes who try to light and go blonde or red look WAY worse.

    I love latinas and it pains me to no end to see them blondening their hair. It provides no contrast with the color in their faces.

    Unless you’re Shakira and then you can do whatever and you’ll still look good but I still think she looks better as a brunette:

    http://www.vivashakira.com/photos/Black/28.jpg

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Ahhhh, I’ve found something :

    Women apparently dress to impress other women.

    A poll of 2,000 debunks the myth that they spend hours in front of a mirror on a Saturday night to impress men.

    The truth is, two thirds are trying to encourage compliments from their peers.

    Six out of ten women aged between 18 and 30 said they had their girlfriends in mind when they chose what to wear on a big night out.

    And more than a quarter said the most genuine compliments they received came from women they don’t know – not men. Yesterday a spokesman for Simple skincare, which commissioned the report, said:

    ‘There is an assumption that women go all out to impress the opposite sex, but this research has revealed this isn’t always the case.

    ‘The fact that so many women care about what their peers think of their appearance is only natural.’

    She added: ‘On the whole, women are much more in the know when it comes to clothes, make-up and style, so it’s not a surprise that girls go out to impress other women as opposed to men.’

    Two thirds of women believe that men say they look good regardless of what they look like and just say it as standard, without thinking.

    And 48 per cent of women polled actually prefer to get a compliment from a female stranger as opposed to a man.

    Why can this be ?

    Anyway the comment on that thread which attracted a lot of censure was this one :

    Women dress to out compete other women to impress men. So in the end they are dressing for men.

    but this woman said the basically the same thing and got applauded :

    Actually it is all about instinctive competition. Beauty is the trump card for acquiring the best mate and often one who has the resources to best feather the nest. It is no surprise that with the advent of plastic surgery, that boobs jobs are now common. In an ideal world these things should not matter, but we have a complex brain that at its core, still has many instinctive behaviours operating.

    And this woman’s comment was utterly fascinating :

    Good grief, someone only just worked this out? :D Women don’t need anything fancy to attract men, and the clothing women they wear is to establish a social pecking order with each other. You see this every day when women write on here to shred apart a woman’s outfit seen in a photograph. I think it’s quite funny, personally. Thank god men don’t function like this!

    And, oh yes, the NAWALT is strong with this one :

    Do we now? Well thats a thought that has never entered my head whilst chosing what to wear. Maybe shallow women dress to impress other shallow women, but lots of women dont. FACT!

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I’ve hung out with nerdy guys for so long that I don’t even know how to talk fashion, accessories and makeup with girls.

    Here’s a recent picture of me with our little boy:
    http://aidanrc.shutterfly.com/pictures/170#280

    I don’t often notice how “dark” I am until I see pictures of myself next to our baby! In Asian culture skin lightening is huge, and makeup is designed to lighten skin. I was called ugly because of my darker skin tone.

    Susan, I look awful when I don’t smile in pictures. Maybe other women can pull it off, but not me!

    HanSolo, yeah, I would look utterly ridiculous with lighter hair.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      What a treat, I looked thru your album twice. Aidan is such a beautiful boy and his range of facial expression had me laughing out loud. What a character!

      You look beautiful in your photo, and I must point out that few women are in a position to look that good with zero makeup. You are blessed and should be thankful!

      Might I also add that in pics 58 and 116 Mr. Hope also looks rather hunky. ;)

  • HanSolo

    @Marellus

    “Why can this be ?”

    Most women are “herd animals” to some extent and being accepted into the female herd is a viscerally felt need.

  • HanSolo

    @Hope

    Stop showing photos of cute babies! Now I want one. ;)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Hope,

    … that baby of yours is gonna be a heartbreaker …

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    HanSolo, babies are cute, but they come with lots of headache, too. :P

    Marellus, thanks. I hope he’ll not get his heart broken very much!

  • J

    @Hope

    Thanks for the new pics. Aidan is gorgeous! He pics of him sitting up and looking around remind me a lot of my boys at that age–not the looks (obviously), but the alert and intelligent facial expressions. Aidan seems to be taking it all in.

    This is such a fun age; it’s when they wake up and begin to explore and you start seeing their personalities. Soon he’ll get cranky over his lack of mobility as his ability to see exceeds his reach. Then, when he’s crawling and cruising and walking, he’ll really take off and be into everything. It’s a lot of fun. You get to re-experience everything being new as he discovers things.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.”

    Good idea. You want to phrase not as commitment or love or FB-official, but disavowing all other options. I suggest a page from my wife’s script (though admittedly it was after sex): “Are you seeing anyone else? I don’t date people who are playing the field.” If yes, give him a chance to break things off. If no, you’re good to go.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Are you seeing anyone else? I don’t date people who are playing the field.” If yes, give him a chance to break things off. If no, you’re good to go.

      Oh, that’s a good call. Will pass that along.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan,

    Van Morrison thinks so:

    Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling
    Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling

    All the girls walk by, dressed up for each other
    And the boys, do the boogie-woogie
    On the corner of the street

    I know I’m searching for something
    Something so undefined
    That it can only be seen
    By the eyes of the blind

    -Billy Joel

  • Mike C

    I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.

    Anne,

    I like it, but I am the type of guy who definitely prefers a certain “look”. I think guys fall into two camps here based on what I’ve seen in these comment threads over the past couple of years. My fiancee is a make-up artist and wears make-up a lot. She also is big into costume jewelry, and always wears jewelry when we go out. She also always has her nails (both fingers and toes) done and has nail appointments every other week. I very much like the “totality” of that “look”….hair done, makeup on, jewelry, nails. In contrast, I’ve noted some guys here seem to strongly prefer the “natural” look which honestly to me just seems plain or bland. They probably like long hair on a girl, but other than that no makeup, no jewelry, no manicured or pedicured nails is their preference. I’m the analytical type, and I think there are some clear patterns that repeat in terms of what types of guys prefer what. So I think a lot depends on what type of guy you want to attract in terms of a more “made-up, decorative” appearance such as using jewelry versus a more minimalist look.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, thanks. My husband is quite hunky, and yes our boy makes some hilarious faces. :)

    About makeup, I have seen lots of women in my life with and without makeup, and I personally think they all look better without. I am not a man of course, but the idea that “most women” who are in shape and healthy can’t look good sans makeup seems off to me.

    J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).

    I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.

    Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.

    Like this or like this.

    Big earrings seems to go with lovely short hair it seems.

  • OffTheCuff

    I wouldn’t worry about the eye contact thing just yet – it’s just too early for that. I distinctly recall my oldest doing that for a while and he’s not even close to being alspie. Of the kids that I do know on the spectrum (my middle son is mild aspie, my godson is strong, but neither are disabled) it becomes obvious something is off very quickly, and there will be lots of correlated symptoms.

  • Mike C

    Anne @ comment 27,

    Sounds like you already have a really good handle on customizing your look and figuring out how various males respond. There may actually be a corollary here to the advice often given to men. Observe what women do, not what they say. The parallel might be ignore what men say about makeup and dress, and observe which of your “looks” garner the most interest.

    Couple of things. There could be a difference between interest and approachability that explains some of the previous comments. The fact is most men don’t have the cajones to cold approach. Approaching is intimidating. So take a natural 7-8 who is a dolled up 8-9 and even though she looks great, she may be unapproachable for the vast majority of men whereas she may be more approachable when she is sweaty from her jog. The other things is most men don’t know diddly squat about make-up which you have correctly pointed out. I’m in a pretty unique position with my SO being a professional make-up artist so I understand the difference between several different looks. I think when many men say they don’t like a “made-up” look what they are really saying is they don’t like the caked on looks with tons and tons of makeup applied horribly wrong with bad colors. In some ways, make-up done well is like a guy running masterfullly tight Game. You are oblivious to it.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ” think guys like seeing their own girls wearing their things. It’s about possession and marking territory.”

    +1

    Also, a slim fit dress shirt tends to hug a woman’s ass snugly but still loose enough to be attractive, beautiful.

    Also,

    +1 to the non-dyed hair.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    @HanSolo

    I love latinas and it pains me to no end to see them blondening their hair. It provides no contrast with the color in their faces.

    In my little universe there is nothing, but nothing, that is quite as intoxicating as long dark hair.

  • Lokland

    On jewellery

    Simple necklace + studs (not sure what else to call them but hanging Christmas tree decorations off your ears is an not attractive unless your dumbo and need a perceived size reduction)

    On makeup,

    Depends upon the situation. Personally I prefer a light touch of I think its called touch up and thats it. Maybe some pale lipstick if we’re going out.

    On the other hand sometimes its nice to have a woman who knows how to slut it up a bit. Variety and all that.

    On lingerie.

    My wife tried to surprise me recently with a according to her peach, not a colour but whatever set (personally I think it was the same colour as cooked salmon). Not so good.

    Black, pink, red, teal-blueish colours. Bright.
    Not peach.

    Like the longish nightgowns or corsets.
    Hate thongs, make me think of Larry the Cable guy.
    Tight underwear that cover about 1/2-3/4 of the ass suffice.
    Stockings with the little strap bit that connects to the top bit. OHH HELL YES.

  • Lokland

    @Mar 63

    You sir are a man of exquisite tastes.

  • Tasmin

    @Stickwick
    “Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. ”
    +1 for me too.

    And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often. I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well. And it never seems to occur to women that gay men typically have an entirely different drive, set of priorities, and view of intimacy and relationships.

    In all of these cases the women have also failed to see that ironically the gay men they seek counsel from are in a perpetual state of juggling “relationships” and other behaviors and perspectives that would be a massive turnoff if a straight man operated that same way. They just think “hey you like penis, you must know what makes men tick, gets them off” and run with it. You don’t see guys cornering lesbian women for tips and trade secrets.

    Friends are important sounding boards regardless of orientation, but there is a cultural undercurrent that seems to be very similar to how the fashion-beauty market has been co-opted.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You don’t see guys cornering lesbian women for tips and trade secrets.

      LOL! I never thought of this, but it’s so true. I don’t think anyone goes to lesbians for sex advice.

  • Mike C

    Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.

    Right…that is what I was referring to above. The Snookie/Jersey Shore/”Guidette” look is that caked on overdone look. Re Snookie, my fiancee actually dressed as Snookie for Halloween. It was a riot…but I joked don’t ever look like that in real day to day life. Maybe later when I’m on the home PC I’ll post the pic.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    @Lokland #65

    Hat tip to you sir.

  • Thin-Skinned

    Also:

    Anyone can afford good posture and an open and friendly smile…

    … but alas, 21st century maidens avoid these because then they would get hit on too much…

  • HanSolo

    @Marellus

    I love long, dark hair too. Nice example.

    This is my favorite girlfriend I’ve ever had, especially for personality but I loved her looks to:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/293661_10151443407990579_1566381357_n.jpg

    I’ll remove the photo shortly so take a look.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      She’s lovely, any chance of getting back together?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OffTheCuff, thanks for the info. When would you say the correlated symptoms start showing up, and what are they?

    Mike C, I think it’s a spectrum of male preferences. For Thanksgiving and Christmas we see the family, and some female relatives wore makeup, which was tastefully applied and not “Snookie” at all. But my husband still pointed it out as “too much makeup.” He is very firmly in the natural camp.

  • Russ in Texas

    I found Anne’s example to be FAR too much makeup, and far too clumsily-applied; she looks like she’s made of resin.

    Point blank: pink circle stuff is things that women do for themselves. Which isn’t to say that there’s anything wrong with any of it — but if I were to make a list of things that guys did for themselves, and expected that women would find it awesomely attractive, people would rightfully accuse me of being distinctly narcissistic.

  • Anne

    @ Tasmin
    “I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well”

    There are quite a few American tv shows in Europe which glorify gay men. They don’t just know fashion better, they know everything better. Whether it’d be food, culture, what women are meant to look like (no breasts or hips) or even politics (apparently they know unborn children better than straight people). They know women’s sexual desires better and have the recipe for successful dating. They have a better sense of humour too. Despite being so ‘strong’ in every way, they are still feeble enough not to be argued with or criticized.
    A bit of a rant, but many of the issues which are debated on HUS (and are especially problematic in the US) has to do with gay culture being forced on women. I do think gay men are strong enough to take the debate, it doesn’t make the rest of us homophobes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      what women are meant to look like (no breasts or hips)

      This is a real pet peeve of mine. It definitely goes straight to what gay males have dictated. The result is a dramatic masculinization over time in beauty ideals. My favorite example is to trash Giselle Bundchen for this. She has no (natural) breasts and her WHR is about .9. I think you would really like this site, btw.

      http://www.femininebeauty.info/sexy-fashion-models

      gb

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus
  • Russ in Texas

    @Hope,

    Thumbs-up! The little man’s looking good there!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Apparently, makeup makes a big difference in the workplace.

      Up the Career Ladder, Lipstick in Hand

      The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.

      ny

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Andrew at Rules Revisited did some work quantifying what he thinks is most important about women’s appearance. His post is here:

        Female Beauty is Highly Controllable

        Interesting chart here. Makeup is only 5%.

        rr

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    HanSolo,

    She looks like a wonderful woman; what went wrong ?

  • J

    J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).

    That is so cool. I loved all that when my guys were little.

    I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.

    If he’s meeting social milestones, I wouldn’t worry. He looks like he is developing very well from the pics. Also, I notice that boy babies really like to look around a lot and check out the environment. I used to hold the boys looking towards me, and DH would hold them looking outward and away from him. I think that’s something of an innate male preference.

    Also, babies don’t seem to notice that you and they are separate individuals until about 6 months. That’s when they start to really be social.

  • Russ in Texas

    Han Solo,

    Contextually-independent, I’d tend towards natural, with makeup being used for specific purposes rather than being a beauty panacea.

    Now, if you’re working under Klieg lights… context counts.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue, what makes it not threatening is that it’s stated in the form of a clear boundary, not a demand (“do X”) or some meaningless label (“am I your girlfriend?”).

    Hope, it was well before two. My godson had strong sensory issues from day one. My son was the most easy-going baby, but then just changed on a dime one day when he was a toddler. Now, my wife was really on top of things because she is K12 trained and deals with lots of kids, so we got an early diagnosis – but my godson’s mother waited quite a bit longer as she was constantly told “oh, he’ll grow out of it” and suffered quite a bit with problems at preschool.

  • HanSolo

    It was kind of a crazy-fast relationship where we had a couple months together and I moved 1800 miles away and she moved to Africa. She said up front that she was moving away and didn’t do distance very well unless she was highly bonded already but I was so smitten that I said it was worth trying. Also, I came on way too strong at first but somehow didn’t scare her off, then later I distanced myself emotionally and gradually she got more into me. We became very good friends and lovers and had some of the best moments of my life together. But the long-distance thing made her fall out of love/infatuation with me. As she was losing attraction for me in Africa due to our different time zones and both having lots of work, so little contact, I realized how much I really loved her underneath my anesthetized exterior layers.

    Though it didn’t work out, it was totally worth the attempt.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    No chance. She has a bf who she thinks is the one and they live together.

    I did see her a year after we’d broken up and there was still an incredible friendship and conversation chemistry but she had started dating the other guy by then and to me it was just too painful to realize how awesome she was and be in her presence so I dialed back the contact a lot. But we still write a note every 6 mo. or so just to say hi.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      There will be someone else, and when it’s not so much work and so anxiety producing, you’ll know she’s the one. It sounds trite, but when it works, it really works, it’s easy. The people I know who married after ups and downs, breakups and getting back together, generally have rather tumultuous marriages, though they did last.

  • HanSolo

    @Russ

    I agree, I like a natural look and make-up, when done well, isn’t noticed much or at all.

  • J

    @Han

    Pretty girl!

  • HanSolo

    @J

    I agree! lol

    I met her on POF. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten so excited reading someone’s profile as hers. It was definitely strong infatuation at first read (I think she only had one blurry picture so it wasn’t even so much on looks though I could tell she was at least cute) and she turned out to be as cool and genuine in person as she portrayed herself in her profile. Hers was the total opposite of the bitchy, too-masculine, ball-busting stereotypical profile that many women put up.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    HanSolo,

    I met her on POF. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten so excited reading someone’s profile as hers. It was definitely strong infatuation at first read (I think she only had one blurry picture so it wasn’t even so much on looks though I could tell she was at least cute)

    She could seduce you, using only her words … what a remarkable woman … what a truly remarkable woman.

  • Emily

    Hansolo,

    Do remember any specifics about what was in the profile? I’m really curious.

  • Escoffier

    pic #107 is really great

  • HanSolo

    @Marellus

    This is the whole thing that F’s me up is that with the handful of girls that I ever fell strongly in love with over time I could feel an almost instant attraction to who they were inside, as if through their body language, eyes, and lack of the 1000-cock stare I could tell that they had the kind of personality and character that I liked. I don’t know if women can understand this but I can usually get a good read on whether a woman fits my personality type just by observing her quickly. Not sure how many other men are like this but in those cases where I later grew to love the woman there was a definite huge ability to perceive her character almost immediately. These girls I have in mind were also pretty and so I was physically attracted but ironically enough I didn’t really lust after them at all at first because the other things I look for were there and so it was a much more in-love as opposed to in-lust feeling.

    In practical terms though, assuming that I can discern quickly, then it means I just have to really keep the spillways shut and feign a certain level of indifference and intellectually choose to be more skeptical and think up every possible flaw or doubt so as to not like her as much or show it, until she catches up.

    But with this girl, there was huge conversation chemistry on our first date, at Border Cafe in Harvard Square. Hmmm, fond memories.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      But with this girl, there was huge conversation chemistry on our first date, at Border Cafe in Harvard Square. Hmmm, fond memories.

      WHAT? Did I know that you lived in Boston? I need a bio!

  • HanSolo

    @Emily

    I don’t remember a lot of specifics but she just had a real positive zest for life and came across as low-maintenance, happy, and grateful, someone who liked to explore the world and cared about people.

    I think that if a woman is looking for a good guy then she needs to develop that side of her and advertise it, not the bitchy, entitled, stuck-up and ball-busting attitudes so often seen on online profiles and in real life.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    J, wow that is right on! My husband definitely likes to hold him facing outwards, and I usually hold him facing me. Fascinating that gender differences come out so strongly in parenting.

    OffTheCuff, thanks again.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    HanSolo, my husband is an NF and exactly the same way. He has a very good “read” on people. He recognized that we were on the same “wavelength” immediately.

    He didn’t feign “indifference” with me, but he was cautious. Meanwhile, I was like “what’s caution?” and bought him a plane ticket to see me after just a week or two of talking to him.

    Incidentally, a girl I know from school days just got engaged. She is much as you described, happy, positive, loves to explore and cares about people. She has over a thousand friends on Facebook, but she’s not some type of social media queen. She just radiates LOVE and is genuinely nice, and I couldn’t help but love her. Undoubtedly others love her, too. She’s done lots of volunteering, is brilliant, talented, kind, and does tons of outdoorsy stuff like mountain climbing (which she and her fiance do together).

    In esoteric spiritual terms, she has a strong 4th density aura. I’d be jealous of her if I didn’t admire her so much. What’s cool is that her fiance is in grad school for applied mathematics, the same field in which my husband got his graduate degree. :P

  • J

    @Hope

    Just wait till you take Aidan to the park, and he climbs the monkey bars. I promise that your husband will urge him to climb higher. and you’ll tell him to be careful.

  • HanSolo

    @Hope

    I am an INF(J/P*). Interesting to hear that about your husband. You also seem like someone who was in a position, or inherently able, to see his value faster than many women who like to take their time. Whatever, you want to call it, I have to hold back my interest and calibrate against the woman’s, especially if it’s one I can discern is a good match.

    The description of that girl sounds very close to her. Hopefully, someday, I’ll find someone similar.

    *my value was nearly neutral but slight J but as I talked with a guy who knew a lot about it he thought I was more P

  • J

    <i.The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.

    Yes. If you are wearing professional clothes, you need to have the polish that make-up gives.

  • Ramble

    Giant Sunglasses were born from starlets who were trying so, so hard to avoid the camera of Paparazzo.

    The herd then wanted in on the action.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Giant Sunglasses were born from starlets who were trying so, so hard to avoid the camera of Paparazzo.

      It was Jackie O, wasn’t it?

  • pvw

    @J:

    <i.The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.

    Yes. If you are wearing professional clothes, you need to have the polish that make-up gives.

    Me: Hell yes. My daytime work look most closely resembles the last one on the right; my casual running around town most closely resembles the minimalist look of lip gloss.

    @Hope: Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.

    Me: She could have been bi-racial (Asian/Euro), like Aidan! He looks very cute, by the way!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She could have been bi-racial (Asian/Euro), like Aidan! He looks very cute, by the way!

      Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.

      (I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    J,

    will you kindly tell me what a fourth density aura is ? I know that there are people who can see auras, and that their colors tell a lot about them, like :

    Red – person is a criminal.
    Green – person is unhappy.
    Yellow – person is very sick.
    Blue – knowledge seekers.
    White with dark edges – person is about to die.

    Any help is appreciated.

    Sincerely.

    Marellus

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HanSolo.

    I cosign that feeling-perception-thingy for other people.

    I am an INFJ as well.

  • Jesse

    I have taken a look at this Venn diagram, and have a couple personal quibbles I will share.

    Wearing a guy’s things:

    I suppose it can be cute, but only if she’s already cute. This is not make-or-break at all. Really, I would think that I mark her as my own with my penis (and associated biological material), not my t-shirt.

    Knowledge of things that interest men:

    A little is nice, but my tastes seem to run counter to a lot of what I hear. I recall some line about how the ultimate girlfriend would say something like, “We should move up our tee time so that we’ll be home in time for kickoff.” Er, no, I don’t need this. I would be perfectly happy for my woman to have her own interests, preferably in which she excels. I’m sure I could really enjoy doing my type of activities with her sometimes, but I would really like her to do her own, maybe more feminine, things. When I ask about her day or the things she does, I’d like it to be a bit interesting and novel.

    I would be concerned about a girl who wanted to drink beer and yell at the TV every game day.

    Hair type/color comments:

    I don’t know. I have a huge thing for Marilyn Monroe. What’s wrong with a little excitement? Do dye and a curling iron somehow indicate high-maintenance, diva headaches? I would want a girl who’s lively and exciting, and who is special and knows it. None of this automatically makes her distastefully conceited.

    All of this simple. leisurely, composed, casual business sounds a little too lobotomized for my tastes. Having said that I have a hunch I’m not the average guy.

    PS on the hair business:

    I’ve started to wonder if my favorite hairstyle on a woman is semi-short like Marilyn’s. I’m trying to understand why this might be. To me such a hairstyle is maybe a way of saying ‘I’m feisty and a little edgy, and I won’t roll over just because you say so,’ which I think I find fairly attractive. (I don’t like it really short like Halle Berry.) I like ‘em submissive, but only in the sense that they put up a fight only to be dominated. Longer hair somehow indicates docility to the point of boredom to me.

    Could be a pile of BS on my part though. It’s all conjecture.

    Anyway, happy new year to you all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesse

      I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!

      In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.

      Every time we talk about this issue I am reminded of the movie Swept Away (the original, by Lina Wertmuller). It’s a fascinating look at dominance and submission, and I find it very sexy. I wouldn’t want to live it, but watching it was really a turn on. I highly recommend the film.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    The pink circle has nothing to do with what women think men find attractive. Its all about what women find attractive for themselves, and also what they think other women find attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The pink circle has nothing to do with what women think men find attractive. Its all about what women find attractive for themselves, and also what they think other women find attractive.

      Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?

  • Richard Aubrey

    In the Sixties, when I was in college, modesty and fashion combined to hint at what might be available, should a guy play his cards right. And in those days, it was a lot of cards. A lot of cards.
    That allowed women to do the display thing while simultaneously being just fine for class or work. Makeup varied.
    In fact, even parties didn’t see much difference. More formal, maybe, more dress-up, but still a fair amount of fabric.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That allowed women to do the display thing while simultaneously being just fine for class or work.

      That’s the sweet spot. I wonder if I might convince some women to try going the modest route for a period of time, say a month, and report back on whether they were perceived differently by males.

  • KK

    I started looking through that pink circle downwards from the top and when the first items were about makeup and hair care, I got the sense that this was going to be a male equivalent of the numerous blurbs on conventionally accepted but (usually) incorrect female attraction triggers.

    I mean the ‘Oh no, I’m not attracted to assertiveness in men. He needs to be respectful most of all.’ lines, you know the drill.

    ‘Oh no, I don’t like it when girls are all made up, it’s more important what’s inside’

    Not to discount that naturally you’d do well to have some substance behind the pretty impression too, but well-applied and discreet routine makeup does in fact improve the lizard-brain level attractiveness noticeably. Not night-and-day, but enough to make it count. And since women tend to apply makeup daily, I guess you do understand this instinctively on some level, a bit like we men instinctively act a bit cocky and cheeky around girls. Aunt Haley had a post about this same area a few months ago:

    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/what-women-mean-by-makeup-vs-what-men-mean-by-makeup/

    The rest of the pink circle makes more sense (what is it with those damn bug-eye sunglasses?).

  • pvw

    @Susan: Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.

    (I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)

    Me: Feel free–you have much to look forward to! I’m glad to hear all is well in that regard. I tend to gush on the types at my end, black mom/white dad, all sorts of fantastic mixes, complexions all over the place, hair texture, color, eye color….Very exotic and striking….You never know what you will get!

  • Richard Aubrey

    “In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.”

    Sounds kind of scripted. I expect a fight, which I expect to win. Might as well phone it in. If I were in that situation, I’d be really annoyed at having to play a phony role in response to…a phony role.
    As I mentioned many threads back, and Ted D. agreed, there are a lot of things I don’t care about. Like restaurants, which apparently are really, really important to women, or stand in for a lot of other things. So if I’m going to get all assertive and dominant and all that crap, and put my foot down about where we’re going, I have to insist on something I chose by throwing a dart at the Yellow Pages over my shoulder.
    How about a woman who’s grown up enough not to need that fake crap? If she needs macho, she can see me eyeball off a couple of guys approaching our DIL. ‘course there’s the fact that recent retinal surgery gives me a massive shiner and a sullen, expressionless face. Actually, the latter is mine own. They didn’t actually wet themselves, but it was kind of funny.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      I don’t think feistiness needs to be a phony kind of conflict. That sounds more like brattiness or entitlement. I’m talking about the natural chemistry in some couples where there is some banter, some push pull and ultimately, female surrender. The dynamic is usually one where a male is “taming” a smart, independent woman. Think Hepburn and Tracy. Or Kate and Pettruchio.

  • Jesse

    Susan,

    The way I see it, if I want to exercise some force I need something to push against. There are women out there who would just love to fight their hardest and ultimately be conquered. To them it’s not phony at all. If they don’t push then how do they know they’re not actually dating a wuss? It’s serious(ly erotic) to them.

    I’m mostly talking about sex and related physical things, if people think I’m talking about arguing about when to walk the dog or something.

  • KK

    I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her.

    That’s why there’s a slight whiff of manly(?) rationalization about this graph. Yes, keeping your natural hair type is nice, if it’s something I already like. Yes, wearing my T-shirts is endearing, but only if you’re already mine. Of course, if we’ve ended up together, chances are that I did like your natural hair type and color (can’t ever remember having a preference for the latter, though) so listing it here is like a… what? A self-proving argument?

    Apart from the natural hair points (which are likely negligible), I’m pretty certain that none of the things in the blue circle are turnoffs for any men apart from some serious outliers. And some them may actually be really good selling points for some particular man. I’ve been seduced once over a few weeks of online chat about mutual interests that got deeper into more personal stuff over time. I wasn’t interested at first but she ‘won me over’ over those weeks and we were together for half a year until our long-term plans turned out to be too mismatched. Anyway, the point was that I can point out a case where ‘Knowledge of things that interest men’ was a definite factor in developing attraction, but then again, I’m a pretty cerebral man.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her. ”

    How is this a “complaint”? Of course there’s an assumption of a baseline f physical attraction. Why wouldn’t there be?

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Re natural hair. That means no perms? Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    J, yep that I know already. We were talking about parenting styles and how I would be so scared that he’d get hurt, and my husband’s like “eh, it’s what boys do. I broke lots of bones.”

    pvw, thank you. :) Yeah I think mixes are really neat. Technically my husband and I are both ethnic mixes. He has several different European ethnicities, and I am Han Chinese and Manchurian (Inner Mongolian).

    Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?”

    Yes we do care what men we are attracted to find attractive.
    But in general, with or without a man, looking or not, we women dress up because we feel better when we do and we also get attracted by the dresses or earrings or haircuts of other women and are like, “Wow, love your dress. Where did you get it?”

  • Anne

    I definitely think most women look best when they’ve done something to their hair.
    Candice Swanepoel. natural hair colour:
    http://www.top100lists.ca/images/candice_swanepoel_dark_hair.jpg
    Highlights:
    http://www.coolwallpapers.org/photo/52774/candice_Swanepoel_wallpapers.jpg
    Full on blonde:
    http://www.glamour.com/beauty/blogs/girls-in-the-beauty-department/2011/07/21/0721-victorias-secret-Candice-Swanepoel_gb.jpg
    Chocolate brown w/different tones:
    http://urbanediary.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/000000122470-candice_swanepoel-fit.jpg

    Regardless of blonde vs brunette, I think all the bottom three ones look better than her original. Most of the time, highlights in different tones will create “life” in hair. It strikes me that ALL the celebrities men drool over have had some colouring done to their hair.
    Of course many natural hair colours are beautiful. But I think a lot of women who always go au naturel, are in reality (if they’re being honest) a bit too lazy to experiment, or don’t prioritize it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      I’m going to agree with you re Candace Swanepoel’s hair. It does look better, IMO, with highlights, and even in the final brunette pic. There’s a shade of dark blonde/light brown hair that is just not that attractive. However, I acknowledge that men might not care at all. I’m a woman with some experience doing stuff to my hair, so I can appreciate the differences.

      Also, despite the preferences of some guys here for long brown hair, research shows that blonde hair and blue eyes is the most popular combination among males. It’s not just coincidence that nearly all hair coloring is either going blonde(r) or covering up gray.

  • Damien Vulaume

    That pink circle of the diagram looks like it was written for (or maybe by) teenage girls or…cough cough… perhaps beverly hills bimbos?… Giant sunglasses, jewelry, expensive clothes, hairspray, posing in pictures…Seriously?
    Regarding make up, only mascara discreetly enhancing the eyelashes is in my view effective. The rest is pretty much superfluous if the girl is naturally pretty. A woman with a pretty face doesn’t need much make up. Fine facial bone structures, especially high cheek bones do it. Slavic women are blessed by the gods in that regard.
    Besides, girls, when do you think a guy truly sees if a woman is naturally beautiful?…In the morning when she wakes up, of course.
    As for the blue circle, I guess I must be some odd ball. What means Simplicity? I’m sure I’d have a very different definition than most of you here. Composure? Meaning what, that she’s not a drama queen?
    -Natural hair type and colour: YES.
    -Wearing his clothes??? Why?
    -Knowledge of things that interest men: Well if by that it’s meant that she’s gonna interest me by informing me on the final score of the latest FC Barcelona/Paris St Germain match, or detailing me the technical specifications of the latest BMW, chances are I’ll be bored to death, as I have an interest in football or cars pretty close to null. However, if she talks to me about, say, Italian renaissance, a Kaurismaki film or short stories by Stefan Zweig, it is more than likely that we will have long discussions together
    -Being leisurely, casual: Like what, walking around the flat in pyjamas and flip flops? Pas vraiment.
    -Things their guy friends say looks good: Hum hum, I can make up my own mind by myself about what is most attractive to me. Guys concerned about their buddies’ opinions in that regard must be either insecure or really vain.

    As for the Rebound girl comment, I agree and always observed that. Girls choose what they like to wear and what style suits them best according to their own taste and what they feel most comfortable with in the first place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      Besides, girls, when do you think a guy truly sees if a woman is naturally beautiful?…In the morning when she wakes up, of course.

      This is the real kicker for a woman whose guy doesn’t like her au naturel. It’s one thing to feel like you have to “put on your face” for strangers. But for your mate?

  • J

    J, will you kindly tell me what a fourth density aura is ?

    Me? I have no idea.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Richard Aubrey
    “Like restaurants, which apparently are really, really important to women”…

    Haha, yes it does indeed seem that restaurants have a universal magnetical power on women.

  • J

    @SW

    I have to admit that even I liked Lina Wertmueller’s “Swept Away.” Like you, I wouldn’t want to live it, but the notion of being “swept away” by a grand passion in a beautiful setting is very exciting to most women.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    her- lounging around in panties and one of my button-down shirts or t-shirt.

    i can’t tell you how many of my t-shirts i notice “went missing” after me and girl quit seeing each other. damn you ladies. lol.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.

    Errm no. The male POV was split both ways. The naturally restricted among us tended to prefer no makeup (or at least so little makeup that it isn’t noticeable), while the naturally unrestricted needed makeup for those boners.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The male POV was split both ways. The naturally restricted among us tended to prefer no makeup (or at least so little makeup that it isn’t noticeable), while the naturally unrestricted needed makeup for those boners.

      You’re right. You, Escoffier for sure, and maybe Cooper (?) pretty much agreed with the women. What I meant to suggest was that the debate was between the no makeup and pro makeup factions, and only males were pro makeup, which I found surprising and interesting.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Marellus, I think you meant to ask me the question. The fourth density is the density of love, which corresponds with the fourth chakra, the heart. I link it to some scientific theories.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Andrew at Rules Revisited did some work quantifying what he thinks is most important about women’s appearance. His post is here:

    Female Beauty is Highly Controllable

    Interesting chart here. Makeup is only 5%.

    This is a great chart. Every girl should see it. Weight and fitness, posture, and to some extent hip-to-waist ratio are things that women can control to become healthy and better looking at the same time. Additionally, hairstyle can go a long way.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!”

    Wow, I’m not the only one.

    @Susan

    “an I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.

    (I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)”

    Two things,

    1. I agree, also biased.
    2. There is a basis in biology (genetics) for this observation. I’ll look for the paper(s) in the morning.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Is it something as simple as hybrid vigor?

      Also, when is Mrs. Lokland due?

  • Pixie

    As someone who finds asian mixes particularly attractive, I found this article to be very interesting: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200512/mixed-race-pretty-face

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pixie

      Interesting article, thanks for the link. I know there have been studies where beauty pageant winners from all over the world all lose out to the composite face created by mixing all their photos.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “WHAT? Did I know that you lived in Boston? I need a bio!”

    You’re drooling.

    Hope: “She has over a thousand friends on Facebook, but she’s not some type of social media queen.”

    This statement does not compile. Syntax error. Anyone who has that many friend is by definition such a queen.

  • OffTheCuff

    “Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”

    Oh yes yes yes. One of the most attractive women I know is in her late 50s, long grey hair that’s been salt and pepper since I’ve known her. But she’s quite thin and fashionable and feminine – it wouldn’t work if she was fat, had short hair, and was wearing a reindeer sweatshirt.

  • Stickwick

    “And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often.”

    This is ‘Sex and the City’ in a nutshell. The show was created by Darren Star, who is homosexual, and for the most part functioned as a gay lifestyle how-to for the single urban gal. Needless to say, it was highly destructive to the many young women who took it to heart.

    “Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”

    Apparently. Good friend of mine has a wife in her 30s who’s gone grey early, and he hates that she dyes it. I started going grey at a young age, as well, and didn’t notice until I stopped highlighting. My husband says he really likes it. Again, another one of those surprising things.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Yes, I lived in Southie for a year and then in Cambridge for several more while doing my PhD. There were lots of great first, or later, date ideas there like the Public Gardens, Finale for chocolate mousse cake, Burdick for hot chocolate, walking along the Charles River, Jamaica Pond or the cliffs and coves at Nahant, and more. Hmmm, kind of miss there. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      It’s really fun to read about your Boston experience. Those are some great date ideas. I live about a mile from Jamaica Pond and walk there every weekend. It’s a beautiful spot.

  • Emily

    >> “I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!”

    Back in my undergrad days, I was rejected by a guy who later dated a loud short-haired anarchist chick who swears a lot. You could be the most feminine person in the world, but there will always be outliers…

  • Emily

    Hope,

    I’m kind of curious to hear about this Aura stuff as well.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    J,

    Me? I have no idea.

    Sowwy

    ****************************************************************

    Hope,

    The fourth density is the density of love, which corresponds with the fourth chakra, the heart. I link it to some scientific theories.

    Thanks, say some more if possible.

  • szopen

    Re: Jewelry

    I think that jewelry on woman looks just stunning, provided that woman in question wears nothing except the jewelry.

  • pvw

    @HanSolo preferring the dark haired Latina look? You live out in the Rockies/Great Plains? Is that look common out there? I imagine it is more common in the Boston/Cambridge area–Latinas of various backgrounds and nationalities, including language, ie., Spanish speaking, Portuguese speaking.

  • Emily

    I’m pro-makeup!!!! I think I might be the only one out of the girls though. That Haley’s Halo is a perfect summary of my opinions on the matter. I have no problem with my bf seeing me without makeup, but I wear it regularly because it *does* make me look nicer. (Otherwise, why would I bother?)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @szopen
    Mr Poznaniak :-) I was wondering, do you have any kind of jokes or stereotypes in Poland regarding the Czechs?… In Czechia they see the Poles as a proud and catholic version of the Czechs, haha.
    As for women wearing only jewelry on, hmmm, sounds like something fetishistic already. Although, when it comes to that, I’ve heard worst stories, sometimes from seemingly unsuspectable people :-)

    @pvw
    I imagine it is more common in the Boston/Cambridge area–Latinas of various backgrounds

    Except in the small North end area, I don’t remember seeing a lot of latin looking people in Boston, and even less “Latinos” from latin America. Also few Asians. The biggest community of recent immigrants I saw there were the Haïtians. Fantastic community. They also had their own FM radio in créole.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Is it something as simple as hybrid vigour?”

    Essentially. Two races will carry different alleles at the same loci (gene). The result is a heterozygote at pretty much every single gene.

    This offers no protection against dominant diseases (Huntington’s) but totally eliminates the chance of recessive diseases (Cystic Fibrosis, which I am a carrier of).

    Theres also complex inheritance diseases but thats too complex to get into it.

    Also, larger set of immune responses simply because the two sets are different.

    Probably another two dozen things we haven’t even thought of yet.

    Also, should be noted. The effect could occur within two individuals of the same race (as it is a matter of degree in difference) or other races as well.

    The article Pixie linked is essentially the media publicized version of what I was going to look for.

    “Also, when is Mrs. Lokland due?”

    She mis-carried. We’re getting some testing done.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences.

  • Richard Aubrey

    @Richard

    “I don’t think feistiness needs to be a phony kind of conflict. That sounds more like brattiness or entitlement. I’m talking about the natural chemistry in some couples where there is some banter, some push pull and ultimately, female surrender. The dynamic is usually one where a male is “taming” a smart, independent woman. Think Hepburn and Tracy. Or Kate and Pettruchio.”

    Petruchio. Hell, I was stuck on Pinnochio. Which reminded me of a conversation I had with a marriage counselor. I used to be in the insurance business and we insured what seemed like a third of the social workers–or at maybe there are lot more of them than I figured–in the greater metro area. He was telling me of a case which he didn’t think was going to end well.
    A woman would tell hubby, if they were first in line at a red light, “It’s green” before he could get his foot on the gas pedal. Either she thought the best thing in life is to mash the gas, leap into the intersection and be tee-boned by a runaway redimix truck, or she was giving him a hard time when he looked both ways just because she liked to give him a hard time.
    He couldn’t get her to stop, no matter how much it pissed him off. She could even do it from the back seat, which he figured was because she could see the walk/don’t walk signs change. Whether they were exactly timed with the traffic lights he wasn’t sure.
    So she starts telling him about the Shrew thing. And about what’s his name who said don’t give me a hard time or we’re turning around. And she did and he did.
    He’s still not getting it, being under the impression he’d married a member of H. Sap, a rational adult.
    Turns out, in counseling, she was trying to get him to push back. BY TURNING AROUND, at least. If he couldn’t yell any louder or swear any worse or…at least he could TURN AROUND like Pinnochio did. Show he was a man.
    He was not mollified. In fact, he blew his top.
    Eff this.
    As to “taming”, if you have to do it more than once, or more than annually, it’s scripted.
    Unless it’s the quarterly macho check, aka crap test.

  • Lokland

    (Cystic Fibrosis, which I am a carrier of).

    Bad choice. Still technically possible but highly unlikely as Asians have a very low frequency and different set of CF mutant genes. Combined with mine it would still be bad.

  • Damien Vulaume

    This is the real kicker for a woman whose guy doesn’t like her au naturel.

    Well, this is the unfortunately all too common type of men, those who can’t tell a woman from a donkey, the kind that don’t notice anything when their women come back from a hair dressing session.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      those who can’t tell a woman from a donkey

      You have the greatest expressions! I assume these are just different, European sayings. But that one really made me laugh.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff “This statement does not compile. Syntax error. Anyone who has that many friend is by definition such a queen.”

    She really has touched that many people in her life, actually probably a lot more. Anyway, she doesn’t make a lot of posts of her own, maybe once every few months. Most of the time other people tag her, including her fiance. Lots of outdoorsy photos. She never dressed in the trendy stuff that popular girls dressed in nor wears makeup, and she never takes self-portraits. All of the photos of her are candid and tagged by other people.

    She is one of the most — if not THE most — genuine, unselfish, un-narcissistic people I’ve ever met. Back in high school she would always cover up her grades when she got her papers and exams back so others would not see it, and she was voted valedictorian even though she didn’t care for the honor because she had the highest GPA, but nobody knew it because she never flaunted it. Even as a teenager she was extremely giving and compassionate, and not in the way to gain recognition.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s ridiculous to judge someone for having a thousand Facebook friends. Current 20-somethings got on fb in high school, went to college, and are now working and meeting new people. It’s a typical number. Also, no one would describe this loose network as genuine “friends.” People friend one another on fb after meeting once. I’m not defending the effect of fb on relationships, I think it’s pretty much all downside, but I don’t think it’s fair to impugn the character of young people who use it. (Which is 99% of the population, duh.)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland, I’m very sorry to hear that. I had two rather late miscarriages, both around 12 weeks. I have heard that miscarriages are common, but they can be very emotionally painful.
    http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html

    The genetic testing we did on the second one (right after Liam) revealed an extra copy of a chromosome which was incompatible with life. It would have also been a girl.

  • pvw

    @DamienV: The biggest community of recent immigrants I saw there were the Haïtians. Fantastic community. They also had their own FM radio in créole.

    Me: Not surprising; it is very common among immigrant communities, to create these basic institutions that provide basic community support, ie., radio stations, as you mentioned, and churches as well, such as non-denominational churches or traditional ones they are reinvigorating.

    In communities where there are lots of immigrants, it would not be unusual, for example, to attend services that might be bi-lingual or even tri-lingual (ie., English, Creole and Spanish).

    It is interesting, you didn’t notice many people of Latin background when you lived there back then. I wonder whether things are changing.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @pvw
    Yeah, that was in 98, so maybe things have changed. How it looked in Paris when I lived there and nowdays, it almost looks like two different worlds.

  • JP

    “(Cystic Fibrosis, which I am a carrier of).”

    That’s one of the world’s most annoying conditions to have.

    One of my wife’s friend’s children has that. Took *forever* to get it diagnosed, so she just seemed to be crazy for a while as she kept telling the doctors that something was always wrong with her child.

  • Sassy6519

    Hmm, I was also pro-makeup in that discussion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hmm, I was also pro-makeup in that discussion.

      So you were! I guess certain aspects of it stood out in my mind – didn’t mean to be inaccurate. Thanks for clarifying.

  • J

    @Mrellus

    Thanks.

    @Lokland

    I’m terribly sorry to hear about the miscarriage. It’s rough. I hope your wife is feeling better.

    @Hope

    It’s amazing how common this genetic errors and miscarriages are. After I miscarried the first time, loads of women shared their miscarriage stories with me. They came out of the woodwork in droves. I was amazed at how many there were.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    Live near the Rockies, yes. Not so many latinos here but I’m only here temporarily.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences.”

    No need. This didn’t even make it to the third month. Very early and for the better.

    @Hope

    “Lokland, I’m very sorry to hear that. I had two rather late miscarriages, both around 12 weeks. I have heard that miscarriages are common, but they can be very emotionally painful.”

    Thank you, if theres anyone who understands how she feels right now its likely you.

    @JP

    “One of my wife’s friend’s children has that. Took *forever* to get it diagnosed, so she just seemed to be crazy for a while as she kept telling the doctors that something was always wrong with her child.”

    How the hell could it not be identified early?
    Its the most common genetic disorder amongst whites, certain sub-pops are tested in utero. I think all babies are tested at birth in Canada.

    Thats crazy.

    I know a guy with it. Player.

    @J

    Thanks, I’m fine but she’s very upset. I can’t joke her back into happiness on this one.

  • OffTheCuff

    Impugn her character? Jeez. I just said she’s a popular social-media queen, not a horrible person. I have enough young people on my friend list, which are mostly musical contact to know it happens. The world is an extrovert’s paradise – duh.

    Can you even understand what it’s like to not be very popular or extroverted?

    That said, I do have a negative first-impression of people who do that. Yes, I judge, too bad. People who “friend collect” to that degree come off as more interested in building a fan base than friendships or even acquaintances, and invariably never say a word to you. I detest one-way relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Can you even understand what it’s like to not be very popular or extroverted?

      My son the introvert has just as many fb friends. I really don’t think you’re up to speed on the fb scene. Everyone friends everyone they meet.

      People who “friend collect” to that degree come off as more interested in building a fan base than friendships or even acquaintances, and invariably never say a word to you. I detest one-way relationships.

      They’re not one-way relationships. They’re entirely equitable. No one thinks a fb friend is a friend in the traditional sense of the word. It’s a networking device, that’s all.

  • Glenn

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV-yGIvUSpE

    Music for laid-back chicks and and video is for people who think children are scary

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, the thing that really helped me was when my husband let me know he still found me attractive and did not think I was a “failure” for losing the babies. He made me feel secure and loved. He also told me I still had lots of time, and that he wasn’t worried about it.

    OffTheCuff, yeah she is definitely ENF*, so she makes friends easily. But being an introvert has its perks, too. We don’t have to spend a ton on presents for lots and lots of people, for example. :P

  • Ted D

    OTC – “That said, I do have a negative first-impression of people who do that. Yes, I judge, too bad. People who “friend collect” to that degree come off as more interested in building a fan base than friendships or even acquaintances, and invariably never say a word to you. I detest one-way relationships.”

    Cosigned. My wife has about 150 people on her FB, and I give her shit constantly about it. To be fair though, most of her family is back in New Hampshire and she uses FB to keep in touch with them. But she also has people she went to HS with, people she used to work with in NH, etc. I asked her if she would bother keeping up with them if FB didn’t exist and she said no, so I asked why she bothered just because she could. But she has always claimed to like being a social butterfly.

    I think I’m at around 45 to 55 on FB. But, that includes family, friends, AND many spouses of family/friends. And I’m thinking about doing a purge, because I still see far too much stupid crap in my timeline from other people.

    Friend collecting drives me nuts. I get invites from people my wife has on FB all the time, and I have to ask her if it’s OK for me to ignore them, because I don’t want to piss off any of her extended family. I don’t even have my own entire family in my friends list!

  • Ted D

    Hope – “We don’t have to spend a ton on presents for lots and lots of people, for example.”

    HA! Not so! People insist in buying me presents every damn Christmas, which of course means I’m obliged to return the favor. (which annoys me to no end!) Thankfully my wife loves the whole gift giving/receiving thing, so she handles most of it for me. I just have to get her something cool, and I can handle one solo gift. (although it would be a lie to say trying to figure out what to get her doesn’t cause me some anxiety)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    What I meant to suggest was that the debate was between the no makeup and pro makeup factions, and only males were pro makeup, which I found surprising and interesting.

    Ah yes. It is quite surprising, given that among the general population, most girls are strongly pro-makeup.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    It’s ridiculous to judge someone for having a thousand Facebook friends. Current 20-somethings got on fb in high school, went to college, and are now working and meeting new people. It’s a typical number. Also, no one would describe this loose network as genuine “friends.” People friend one another on fb after meeting once. I’m not defending the effect of fb on relationships, I think it’s pretty much all downside, but I don’t think it’s fair to impugn the character of young people who use it. (Which is 99% of the population, duh.)

    I started culling my friendlist on FB after it reached the hundreds. I’ve got it down to double digits now.

  • SayWhaat

    Just checked my FB: 754 friends. And I consider myself to be fairly selective…I only de-friend the truly annoying. :P

    Re: makeup, I am a big fan of the polished, natural look. That being said, I don’t think I’ve consistently worn it in well over a year, even at work. Working excessive hours made me value the extra 15 minutes of sleep more. Also, BF says he prefers me without makeup, so it’s all good. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Good to see you here, sweet pea! I hope your year is off to a good start.

  • SayWhaat

    Lokland, my condolences for your loss.

  • Emily

    Yeah, in the early days of Facebook, the trend was to try and get as many friends as possible. But now there’s sort of a backlash against that, and more and more people seem to be “purging” their lists.

  • SayWhaat

    Re: auras

    One time I went to one of those NYC psychics for funsies, and she read my aura. I asked her when I would get a boyfriend, and she
    said, “within 3 months.”

    3 years and 10 months later…

  • SayWhaat

    FB-friend count of my introverted best friend: 620

    Of my INFJ BF: 811

  • Ted D

    FWIW I was in the anti-make-up camp. I thought at least one or two other guys were with me…

  • Ted D

    How can anyone call themselves introverted if they have 620 FB friends? I mean, sure, you don’t have to actually see those friends face to face, but it still takes effort to remain in contact with them and foster a friendship.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    As an aside, there is a marker of mourning in China that immediately lets others know when a family member has passed away. The mourner wears a piece of black fabric armband, often for months. It tells others to be more sensitive, that the person is grieving. I believe this was also done in Europe.

    There are also rituals like putting up a photo of the deceased, and family and friends would place flowers, incense and candles around the photo / memorial. They might also burn money and food made out of white paper for the dead, because the traditional Chinese belief is that the dead went to another world and still need things.

    Unfortunately there aren’t very many good grieving rituals surrounding miscarriages. Even for stillbirth it is different from the death of a baby who died after a few weeks. Because it happens in the woman’s body, it seems more taboo to publically talk about it.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Hope. Used to do that here. There are pix of FDR with a black band on the left sleeve of his suit coat. I think it was his mother he was mourning. I should check that.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    How can anyone call themselves introverted if they have 620 FB friends? I mean, sure, you don’t have to actually see those friends face to face, but it still takes effort to remain in contact with them and foster a friendship.

    I think a lot of people are reading into the facebook friends thing a little too much… I have over 1,300 friends, and I’m hardly a social media addict. Rarely post anything unless it’s funny shit I read or observations about sports.

    People meet me and add me, and I usually just accept by default. It’s not like I make great effort to communicate with all of them, or read or care about what they post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy

      Happy New Year to you too!

      Your description of your facebook use very much matches the way kids I know use it. No one fosters a friendship on facebook except us old folks.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    SayWhaat, I don’t really buy into that sort of thing. But it can be kind of fun to read fortunes and whatnot.

    What I mean by fourth density is much more esoteric than that. I’m referring to this, and if you can get through it, kudos to you…

    http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?c=Densities&su=Fourth

  • Mike C

    Hope,

    I know this is way off-topic, but I was hoping to get your opinion on something that I hope you have knowledge of. What is the cultural Chinese view towards gold ownership, particularly as a permanent store of family wealth.

    I am reading some stuff that seems to indicate that the Chinese government may actually advocate for this amongst the population. Over the past 7 years, you had both a massive bubble in Chinese stocks (2005-2007), and a bubble in property as Chinese felt like buying real estate was a better way of preserving wealth then a bank account paying nothing. Much of the global oil price increase since 1998 was driven by an increase in Chinese demand. So my thought/speculation is that a billion Chinese buying a lot of gold could send gold prices into the stratosphere over say the next 3-10 years, but I am just not sure of their cultural proclivity towards gold ownership. I know Indians are big into gold and much of the seasonality of gold price spikes can be explained by the Indian wedding season. Anyhow, any information you can provide about Chinese attitudes toward gold ownership or what might be happening there now would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    SayWhaat,

    One time I went to one of those NYC psychics for funsies, and she read my aura. I asked her when I would get a boyfriend, and she
    said, “within 3 months.”

    3 years and 10 months later…

    … you haggled her lower on the price, didn’t you ?

  • SayWhaat

    People meet me and add me, and I usually just accept by default. It’s not like I make great effort to communicate with all of them, or read or care about what they post.

    Yeah, pretty much this. Ted, our generation isn’t constantly busy reinforcing and fostering ties with people we know/met at one point. I’d wager that our actual social circles are just as small as yours are, ours are just more visible.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    The men who prefer makeup on women are older, post 40 men who are dealing with older post 40 women. A little bit of makeup can make them look younger. But there’s a tipping point when too much makeup makes her look older.

    Younger men generally don’t prefer makeup because the women they are dealing with don’t need it.

  • SayWhaat

    Hope, I know, I just thought it was a funny story. :P

    … you haggled her lower on the price, didn’t you ?

    Hahaha, I can assure you I did not, though after the first three months I did consider demanding a refund ($5). XD

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Mike C, gold has traditionally been seen as a symbol of wealth in China. Red and gold are colors of happiness and prosperity. The word “yellow” is also a sound-alike for emperor, so emperors used to wear lots of golden clothing. They line Chinese New Year gold envelopes with gold foil, use golden plated material for decorations, and make holiday candy that look like old style Chinese gold bullion.

    However, for preserving the family wealth and as a form of investment, I’m not sure if banking on tons of Chinese buying gold is the thing to do. They are becoming a very consumerist society, interested in property, cars, luxury brands and electronics, i.e. stuff that can be bought with liquid cash / credit. Physical gold may become more lucretive as richer people want to protect their existing assets.

    Personally I wish I had invested in gold a few years ago when prices were around $500/ounce. I would still buy as a super long-term hedge against inflation. My husband’s family did so more with silver than gold, but I think gold has more psychological value. And what is money/currency but what people agree has value?

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    Hansolo, your girl was cute and had a very down home approachable friendly look to her.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    “Point blank: pink circle stuff is things that women do for themselves.”

    That’s exactly what I said!

    “You don’t see guys cornering lesbian women for tips and trade secrets.”

    ” LOL! I never thought of this, but it’s so true. I don’t think anyone goes to lesbians for sex advice.”

    Well they need to start. They are expert in cunning linguistics. ;)

  • Emily

    SayWhaat,

    I once had a psychic tell me that my love life is cursed. She even offered to remove the curse for $40! (I awkwardly declined. :P )

  • Lokland

    “Personally I wish I had invested in gold a few years ago when prices were around $500/ounce.”

    My Grandfather, god bless his paranoid soul, expected the end of the world when oil ran out and invested money in gold and silver. We didn’t realize how much until he passed away.

    I’ve kept all mine out of sentimental value. I keep an ounce in my office just to have his presence around.

    The best one was when we picked up an old round table and found a hidden compartment with $15000 in 20 year old 5 dollar bills. That was fun to explain to the bank.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Rebound,

    “… Younger men generally don’t prefer makeup because the women they are dealing with don’t need it.”

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    Thank you.

  • Lokland

    @Lokland

    “Lokland, the thing that really helped me was when my husband let me know he still found me attractive and did not think I was a “failure” for losing the babies. He made me feel secure and loved.”

    Thanks this assures me I’m on the right track.

  • Ted D

    Jimmy H – “People meet me and add me, and I usually just accept by default. ”
    See, I fix this from the gate. I decline. ;-)

  • Mike C

    My Grandfather, god bless his paranoid soul, expected the end of the world when oil ran out and invested money in gold and silver. We didn’t realize how much until he passed away.

    I’ve kept all mine out of sentimental value. I keep an ounce in my office just to have his presence around.

    Lokland,

    First, sorry for your loss.

    Second, I don’t have a crystal ball but my informed professional opinion would be to continue to hold on to it unless it makes up an enormous percentage of your personal wealth in which case some prudent diversification is warranted. I’ve thought about this just about every day since the 2008 crisis, and to me the inescapable endgame to the amount of nominal debt obligations is the debasement of currency through money creation and monetizing the debt. If Bastiat is around, I’d love to know if he has essentially formed the same conclusion. I always find myself rereading Bernanke’s 2002 speech about the printing press to remind myself what I think he really believes and intends to do. In the past 100+ years upcycles in gold ended when it traded at a 2 to 1 and 1 to 1 ratio to the Dow. I believe there will be a third repeat of that. Presently, there are numerous positive drivers for a higher gold price, and I was just curious if I could add massive Chinese buying to that list which is why I asked Hope the question.

    Hope, gold really isn’t driven by official inflation rates. That is a mistaken belief. We had inflation in the 1980s and 1990s and gold dropped from $850 down to $250. The best explanatory variable is something called real interest rates and gold tends to do well when real interest rates are negative. Real interest rates are essentially the interest you can earn on a Treasury minus the inflation rate.

    I’ll make this point while I am discussing this. Financial asset prices are driven by a number of things, and it is easy to find spurious correlations. One study found an amazingly high correlation between the S&P 500 and the price of butter in Malaysia. Obviously, this is nonsense. Point being, any sort of quantitative/statistical analysis should also be accompanied by some common sense, and critical thinking before unquestioningly accepting the quant analysis at face value

  • SayWhaat

    Emily,

    When I was born, my parents had my Indian horoscope read and the astrologer warned them that I would need to be careful around boys when I turned 16.

    As a result they were downright paranoid every time I interacted with a boy, and 16 came and went without pomp.

    They needn’t have worried; I was a complete man-repeller at that age. XD

  • YaReallyShallow

    Often “honey I like you better without makeup” is code for “you are really shitty at applying makeup and look like a rosy-cheeked clown but I don’t want to hurt your feelings and don’t know enough about makeup to know that you could just go to a cosmetics counter and learn to apply it properly instead of wearing the shit your mom gave you and winging it.”

    If I had a daughter, I’d take her to learn to do her makeup proper. I’ve seen way too many chicks who have awful makeup and have no idea. It doesn’t even have to do with how much is applied, it’s just terrible color choices and application.

    Usually these are the girls who pride themselves on not being fake bar slut types lol so they only do their makeup once in a while, thus their sucktitude at it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Mike C, I will also mention that the Chinese see practical things like owning your own place and a car as more necessary for marriage. Even more so than engagement rings.

    http://www.chinawhisper.com/no-marriage-without-house-car-and-money-in-china

    This is the driving force behind the Chinese real estate bubble. I am not sure if you’ve ever been to China, but it is extremely crowded in most cities. The population density in even small cities rivals Manhattan.

    There’s also huge mob mentality going on in China, so gold could turn quickly if the population does decide to buy gold and get into a gold rush. The recent turning away from Japanese cars is an example of this working the other direction.

  • Lokland

    @Mike C

    “First, sorry for your loss.”

    Almost a decade ago.
    Second, is this some kind of American thing. To apologize for a loss that you can’t be sure of when it occurred?

    Thanks for the thought.

  • Mike C

    Almost a decade ago. Second, is this some kind of American thing. To apologize for a loss that you can’t be sure of when it occurred?

    Thanks for the thought.

    I was referring to the miscarriage you mentioned upthread.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Semi-related, while we’re on the topic of China — Chinese girls with and without makeup:

    http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/chinese-girls-before-and-after-makeup.html

    Mike C, I think gold prices are more about fear than inflation. People are often paranoid, superstitious and emotional, especially when it comes to money. When fear was low and confidence in the US economy was high, people didn’t care for gold. I think China had been going through an economic boom, which is why fewer people had been buying gold. If China slows down significantly or goes into a bad spot, gold will probably fly through the roof.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Those pictures freak me out! A lot of them are the same woman – really strange.

      Not long ago we went out for sushi and our waitress was wearing those anime contacts in a shade of blue. It was the strangest looking thing. I’ve read they are illegal in the U.S. but people order them online from Malaysia.

  • JP

    “Financial asset prices are driven by a number of things, and it is easy to find spurious correlations. One study found an amazingly high correlation between the S&P 500 and the price of butter in Malaysia. Obviously, this is nonsense. Point being, any sort of quantitative/statistical analysis should also be accompanied by some common sense, and critical thinking before unquestioningly accepting the quant analysis at face value”

    Right now, the stock market is driven by the fact that the Fed has it’s foot on the gas pedal.

    I wanted to buy gold back in 2003.

    I don’t want to buy gold right now.

    I want to sit in cash at 0% until I think some more about what’s going on.

  • Lokland

    @Mike C

    Ahh okay, thank you, much appreciated.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    My son the introvert has just as many fb friends. I really don’t think you’re up to speed on the fb scene. Everyone friends everyone they meet.

    Not quite everyone. ;)

  • INTJ

    58 friends btw. Checked three of my introverted close friends. They have ~200, 600, and 60 friends each.

  • Lokland

    @Mike C

    “and to me the inescapable endgame to the amount of nominal debt obligations is the debasement of currency through money creation and monetizing the debt. ”

    A flock of geese just flew overhead.

    But I think I understood this bit.

    In normal speak does this translate roughly to when it costs more to make your money than its worth the shit will be hitting the fan. Canada’s dropping the penny for that reason sometime soon and I know that is a very bad thing.

  • JP

    Here are some inflation rates for what happened during WWI:

    1916-1920.

    8%
    17%
    18%
    15%
    16%

    Meaning that if you had $1 in 1915, it was worth about 45 cents by 1920.

    Mass inflation is a normal part of the economy, in the sense that it happens often enough that it’s annoying and you do get half your savings destroyed.

    The same thing happened in the 1970’s.

  • SayWhaat

    Happy New Year to you too, Susan! I’ve thrown myself headfirst into some writing projects. It was going well until the Writer’s Block, lol. -__-

  • Ion

    Emily

    “I think that strategy will only work for the very hottest women. One trait that I notice in many “beta females” is a flat-out refusal to play around with their appearance (ie. makeup, nice clothes etc.) Many of them eventually end up pairing up, but I think it’s DESPITE (rather than because of) the lack of effort they put into their appearance.”

    I agree 100%, I’m pro-makeup for myself :-) . Female betas aren’t noticed sometimes because they put hardly any effort into standing out. And usually when beta women get into a relationship and say their individual bf prefers their natural look, it is years after being single and getting no interest or approaches from men. When beta girls do online dating, they could be responded to because they put up pictures where they put on a nice shirt and a little gloss, as opposed to sweats and a t-shirt.

    No idea what my number rating is, but I doubt I’m hot enough to walk around without makeup and baggy clothes. I also never feel comfortable without makeup (I’ve been wearing everyday since I was like 14, so it takes the same time as brushing my teeth as a part of my morning ritual). Plus, if I’m in sweatpants and glasses it probably comes off as “lesbian lacrosse player” since I’m 6′. :-/

    3 or 4 times a guy strikes up a convo a week or shows interest, and I’m totally fine with that number for now. I wear makeup and skirts basically everyday because that’s how I feel comfortable. Not a lot of heavy makeup, but like, enough makeup (mascara, eyeliner and lipstick, occasionally eyeshadow and blush but not too often).

    I think it’s about beta women striking a balance and knowing your target audience. Beta women hear “put in effort” and sometimes they assume expensive makeup and a tiara. Not at all.

  • Ion

    I am so sorry Lokland :-( hug your wife as much as you can.

  • Russ in Texas

    Lokland,

    Best of luck. It sounds like you’ve got things well in hand.

    Hope,

    That before/after makeup has scarred my brain. Prepare. Sooner or later, I *will* get you back for that. :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    ,Unfortunately there aren’t very many good grieving rituals surrounding miscarriages. Even for stillbirth it is different from the death of a baby who died after a few weeks. Because it happens in the woman’s body, it seems more taboo to publically talk about it.
    Well given the high index of miscarriages and infant mortality, few women from our past actually bonded to their babies till they reached “safe” ages. There was no need for rituals because the only mourning was if the woman needed a baby to keep the marriage or the family happy. Sad but true. Loving an unborn son or daughter is a luxury we modern women can afford, our sisters from ancient times couldn’t and didn’t.

    I once had a psychic tell me that my love life is cursed. She even offered to remove the curse for $40! (I awkwardly declined. )

    I had one tell me that I was going to have two daughters and cheat on my husband 3 times…I knew he was a fake with the last part. ;)

  • Jesse

    “I had one tell me that I was going to have two daughters and cheat on my husband 3 times…I knew he was a fake with the last part. ;)”

    This one’s right in the wheelhouse… but I’m too nice to even jokingly impugn the character of a woman I don’t know. Consider yourself lucky. ;-)

  • Sai

    @Lokland
    :( x 1000

    @Hope
    No matter which of his parents he takes after more, Aidan will never lack for company when he gets older. He’ll just have to filter like a boss. :mrgreen:

  • JuTR

    I tend to find some of the items in the pink circle to be outright disqualifiers.

    On the big sunglasses trend, had read something that the roots of that could be traced to Elton John’s dress style. Perhaps yet another gay trend that women adopted? I think they look ridiculous and stupid, and it makes me think they idolize the Kim Kardashians and Lohans and Paris Hiltons.

    Blond hair that is noticibly dyed is a turnoff. And for highlighting in hair, if it is subtle, I have no problems. However, when I see obvious dyed highlights (dark hair with blond streaks or other colors), it immediately makes me think she’s promiscuous. Kind of like the old saying, “If she smokes, she pokes.” It’s a first glance assessment that I have found to trend pretty accurately if I spend any more time getting to learn what is behind the hair.

    Lots of jewelry? Bleh. Expensive clothes are fine, but designer logos and flaunting the wealth tells me that I wouldn’t even want to try to afford spending time with the woman.

    There’s a line in the middle between lack of concern over appearance, and the extreme focus that seems to dominate some spheres.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oh and I have 1,178 Facebook friends I WIN!!! Mwa ha ha ha :D.
    Really I’m just a friends slut if someone friends me I accept (except for my sociopath of a brother he can eat crow for all I care) “What is the worst that can happen?” Of course I had some people so far: One insulted my friend’s 11 year old niece, other used to post pictures of dismembered animals, other placed a violent call against Muslims, other kept having a kill all gringos posts and other had some porn sites ads, other was mean to some of my friends that just had babies…still “what is the worst it could happen?” :p

  • DamienVulaume

    #204…………Oh merde, another Yareally”LOL” alert again. This guy is going to “LOL” himself to death soon. Somebody please help him.
    I much preferred the P.J outbursts, though.

    People insist in buying me presents every damn Christmas, which of course means I’m obliged to return the favor. (which annoys me to no end!) Thankfully my wife loves the whole gift giving/receiving thing, so she handles most of it for me. I just have to get her something cool, and I can handle one solo gift. (although it would be a lie to say trying to figure out what to get her doesn’t cause me some anxiety)

    Don’t put words into my mouth, please. :-)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, I’ve actually tried some of those contacts. They look way fake in person, but I guess with dramatic makeup it’s not as bad. Needless to say I didn’t wear them after the once.

    Russ, my apologies.

    Anacaona, good to hear from you. How is your boy?

  • http://@ Iggles

    Lokland – So sorry for your loss :(

    Ana, et. all Re: Facebook – I have just north of 100 fb friends. Most from college, when I joined. Im not that into it anymore and probably should cull the list down to people I’ve interacted with in the past few years. The main reason for me is privacy concerns.

    They’re constantly changing it and I’m not comfortable with the amount of info “friends of friends” can see on default. They can see just as much as people you’ve actually friended. The other day, a “friend of a friend” erroneously tagged me in a photo…

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Anacaona, good to hear from you. How is your boy?

    Doing good,eating a lot, sleeping, hating tummy time…the usual. How is Aidan doing?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Sai, love that… “filter like a boss.” My husband is very picky, so maybe it will be like father, like son.

    Ion, I think putting in effort with being in shape and dressing femininely is a great idea. But makeup has harsh chemicals which always irritated me. They even recommend pregnant women steer clear of nail polish. My thinking is, if I wouldn’t do it to a baby, why do it to myself?

    Iggles, I agree. I went for a long while without using fb. Now I just try to be on there to be polite to my friends. I don’t post much.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, I’m kind of getting into a new routine with work and all. Aidan has been a sweetie and smiling quite a bit. He’s 4 months today! :D

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Yeah, in the early days of Facebook, the trend was to try and get as many friends as possible. But now there’s sort of a backlash against that, and more and more people seem to be “purging” their lists

    Yeah, I never saw the point in either. I deleted one person because he insisted on going on feminist rants and frequently linked to Jezebel.

    No fucking way did I want to see that crap on my newsfeed and honestly he had no redeeming attributes.

    I have another friend who links to Jezzie a lot, but she is also a writer, and that makes her cool in my book.

  • The Rebound Girlfriend

    What about dying one’s grey hair its previous color? I’m all for men doing that but how do men feel about women doing it?

  • J

    Thanks, I’m fine but she’s very upset. I can’t joke her back into happiness on this one.

    You won’t be able to, so don’t even try. Just be supportive of her, and don’t be afraid to shed a manly tear in front of her. As I’ve said previously, I’ve had a few miscarriages myself. DH tried to “be strong” for me, but after a bit I just wanted to know that he shared my pain.

    Again I am so sorry…

  • Lokland

    @J

    This will sound horrible but I honestly don’t care.
    Shit happens, she’s got more eggs, I got more sperm.
    There’ll be another one.

    Also, she’s finally cried herself to sleep. I got her to chuckle a bit at one point though.

  • J

    Yes, there will be another, but try to understand that your wife had a child die inside her and, I would assume, feels that a part of her died with it as well. I know you want to cheer her up, but don’t be surprised if that’s harder than you expect.

    And while I’m giving unsolicited advice, nothing pissed me off more at the time than the notion that DH cared less than I did–though I realize now that, since this all went on in my body here DH could see it and the fetuses were far more real to me than to him, there was no way he was going care as much as I did.

  • Ion

    “Ion, I think putting in effort with being in shape and dressing femininely is a great idea. But makeup has harsh chemicals which always irritated me. They even recommend pregnant women steer clear of nail polish. My thinking is, if I wouldn’t do it to a baby, why do it to myself?”

    Great point Hope. But household chemicals, hair products, toothpaste (look at the list of ingredients), hair remover and soaps are also pretty toxic. YMMV, especially if you’re allergic.

    I think the link you provided with chinese women without makeup proves 1. Those women are wearing TOO MUCH makeup. 2. Those women need SOME makeup.

    There are countless beta women who a little blush/gloss and a nice outfit turns them from “boring” or “tomboy” to pretty. To tell beta girls men like “natural” is sometimes like telling them that they shouldn’t bother at all.
    Men seem to like shy-beta attractive girls more than they like shy-beta unattractive girls.

    By the way, your baby’s cheeks made me chuckle! He is growing cuter and cuter by the day. :-)

  • Ion

    “Yeah, I never saw the point in either. I deleted one person because he insisted on going on feminist rants and frequently linked to Jezebel.”

    I’ve deleted about 300 people from facebook that I knew over the years, to about 90 folks. I’ve also deleted acquaintances for 1. talking about Obama too much in 2008. 2. annoying rants. 3. being crazy. 4. Talking about the middle east too much. 5. annoying status updates every 30 seconds. 6. Being relatives and sharing every little thing I post with my parents for discussion. 7. Being a relative and talking about sex (I REALLY don’t wanna know). 8. Hosting too many events (now they have that feature where u can ignore event solicitations, but that’s new if memory serves)..9. Attention whoring.

    I’m hardly ever on Facebook anymore. :-/

  • Lokland

    @J

    “Yes, there will be another, but try to understand that your wife had a child die inside her and, I would assume, feels that a part of her died with it as well. I know you want to cheer her up, but don’t be surprised if that’s harder than you expect.”

    Thank you, I realized this fairly quickly. I might not care but she doesn’t need to know that.
    I find it more painful to have her feeling so miserable.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ion, I avoid most harsh household chemicals/wear gloves while cleaning, don’t use hair products or hair remover at all, and soaps/toothpaste don’t stay on me for more than a few minutes. I try to eat healthily as well and not too many processed foods.

    If those women only wore a little bit of makeup, i.e. “a little blush/gloss” they would still not look amazing. Also a lot of the “before” pictures have the girl not smiling and in a bad hairstyle. I think some of the ones without makeup and the girl smiling/in a good hairstyle look just fine.

    I definitely don’t think “not bother at all” is a good idea. I spend time on my body for sure! But I’m not high maintenance. I’m not so anti-makeup or dress-up that I never did it. But sooner or later the makeup has to come off. Better to send more honest signals.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “No one fosters a friendship on facebook except us old folks.”

    If it wasn’t for FB and my wife, I would probably talk to my close friends about three times a year max. If I don’t have something to say to someone, I don’t bother them. When they post on FB, they “appear in my view” and once I’m thinking of them I will reach out to them.

    My wife is the social planner. She gets along very well with the wives of my other guy friends, and together they tend to make plans that put us face to face far more than usual. We’ve determined as a group (of grumpy old men) that this new situation is fine, as long as we don’t have to work at it.

    Although it occurred to one of us that the situation is an awful lot like SAHM’s setting up “play dates” for their kids. And after some consideration, we determined that the wives might be doing this for some of the same reasons. LOL

  • Russ in Texas

    Hope,

    Damn. I need more powerful smilies. Not offended — horrified and amused.

  • Ion

    Hope

    “If those women only wore a little bit of makeup, i.e. “a little blush/gloss” they would still not look amazing.”

    lol, they would look a little better… and that’s my point :-).

    “But I’m not high maintenance. I’m not so anti-makeup or dress-up that I never did it. But sooner or later the makeup has to come off. Better to send more honest signals.”

    I hear what you’re saying, but IDK, a lot of girls I know think it’s a competition “prissy girls” vs “tomboy girls”. And there’s just too many girls who don’t fit either category. I’m definitely not high maintenance at all, but not a tomboy either. I probably spend $20 on makeup per month, if that, and NEVER get my nails done (the one time I did was for my brother’s wedding).

    I just happen to be a sigma/delta who wears makeup, has worked in museum’s at party’s for the wealthiest new yorkers, and has had to reevaluate the signals I was sending over and over again. :-) I even had an employer tell me I needed to dress differently, which was embarassing (both a professional job and when I worked at Victoria’s Secret for 2 years in college). I had an eyebrow and nose piercing in college, which I’m not too proud of. :-/

    Do I wear a lot of makeup that I’d look radically different without it? Nope. Does makeup make me look slightly better? Yes, in my opinion.

    Every guy I’ve dated has seen me without makeup has said that I look the same. But it’s probably the fact that I don’t care about designer labels, and still dress/behave and look on the female side of the equation that I caught their interest to begin with.

    I definitely value your input on this issue though.

  • Deli

    2 Susan
    //That Jenna Marbles video is satire
    Well, duh :)

    // – you’re supposed to think she is disgusting by the end of her “makeover.”
    …and this is something I disagree with. If she wanted to do the usual “here is me looking natural and pretty – and here is me with make up and looking ugly”, she would do the make up way over the top. But she didn’t – she did exactly(!) the make up she does for her regular videos. And it works.
    Maybe I was supposed to be disgusted, but I was not. Lookwise everything she did worked. In the end of her “date” video, when she starts with “What else could you do – come dressed as yourself?”, notice how she changed from a slutty dress into a T-shirt – but she didn’t(!) remove the make up.

    And that was the funniest part.
    Not the fact that she has to do stupid shit to look pretty.
    The funny thing, is while she does shit, she knows is stupid, – it still works in the end. She DOES manage to turn herself into a human optical illusion, and she does that every day of her life. Real life.
    That’s funny.

    It’s like if some PUA posted a video on
    “It’s not the fact that I act like a obnoxious, insulting and shallow jerk that is really funny. I know it’s stupid, you know it’s stupid, every one knows it’s stupid. That’s not the funny part.
    The funny part is, that it works.”*

    And coming back to the make up thing – I just saw CNN referring to Cameron Russell TED talk about her gig as a model. It touches a bit on the question of make up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re53vgaVFvI

    P.S.
    My Facebook friend count is around 80-ish and I do judge people by their FB friend numbers.
    In in my late 20-ies

    P.S.S. *Which is an actual thing you read between the lines in some of the blogs. You almost hear the astonished whispers of “I could not imagine that shit as stupid as telling her I had to use her bathroom would actually work. Noone is that dumb” or “I am an ugly old cockmonster. AND I STILL GET LAID. Which is hillarious, and a little bit disturbing.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deli

      Are we talking about the same video?

      jm

      Do you think that looks good?

      Also, that’s an interesting talk by Cameron Russell. She grew up with my son, and is super smart. She dropped out of Columbia to model full time. Her mother is the founder of Zipcar. Interesting family.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Personally, I’m in the cautiously pro-makeup camp, provided that high-quality, subtle products are used and that the woman uses them in a disciplined way that plays to her facial strengths, natural coloring, etc.

    I may be a bit biased here because I may be one of those tortured-soul high-T/high-E hybrid that Susan has analyzed on the past. My fashionista mother and former Miss World contestant aunt have always tried to impose on me the importance of recognizing and complimenting style in a woman. Over the years, as I have tried to make a relatively serious go at the study of persuasion, I’ve taken some workshop classes at places like RADA and Business Intelligence Advisors (ex-CIA interrogators who teach body language techniques to hedge fund guys and i-banking analysts) and learned to more fully appreciate what a skilled seductress can do from a social engineering perspective.

    I agree with the other make-up minimalists here that it usually doesn’t take much make-up to make a substantive difference in most cases—perhaps we have an inverted “U” situation in which there are steady initial gains from the introduction of the first few items, but then an eventual, rapid decline if more and more stuff is used (i.e., overindulgence in eye effects end up creating an insane, panda bear look).

    I think the Left Bank Parisian girls do a great job of mixing just the right amount of cosmetics and perfume with some high-end fashion and boho/surplus stuff. I don’t know how to articulate the effect that this can have on men except to say that it just makes the girl seem like a work of art (yes, this means that men are objectifying her to some extent).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      perhaps we have an inverted “U” situation in which there are steady initial gains from the introduction of the first few items, but then an eventual, rapid decline if more and more stuff is used (i.e., overindulgence in eye effects end up creating an insane, panda bear look).

      I think this nails it.

  • Deli

    To my previous comment:

    The (*) was referring to the following comment, that I was supposed to make but forgot :)

    * For me personally, the difference between Jenna’s “No make up” and “All done” is the difference between
    “I would not talk to her, even if I just needed a spare pencil” and
    “She’s out of my league”
    (obviously I am slightly exaggerating)

    The difference is stunning. The TED video above does the same for Cameron Russel, when she compares her own pictures and studio shots. But with one important caveat her own pictures are actually bad. She took her ugliest photos and compared them to something, that was polished with hours of post production. Obviously there is a huge gap.

    But pointing at the made up pictures and saying “this is not how I look” is half of the story. Because her own pictures, done in crappy conditions with a crappy camera, are not how she looks either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But with one important caveat her own pictures are actually bad. She took her ugliest photos and compared them to something, that was polished with hours of post production. Obviously there is a huge gap.

      Having seen her frequently from age 13-18, I can assure you that is just how she looks. I always thought her face was lovely, but she got zero attention from boys. I once asked a group of about five boys in my car why they didn’t like her and they said, “Ugh, she’s manly!” She actually is rather manly, and she benefits from the current fashion of androgynous models with few curves.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Ion, I hear you on the “sending wrong signals” bit. Back in college I wore some really skimpy stuff with tons of cleavage, miniskirts and short shorts. My mother had insisted on dressing me in very plain clothing, so once I was out from her house I started going a bit crazy. Then I was told by some guys that I looked “easy.” It was massively incongruent with my personality, as I was extremely shy and reserved.

    So after some re-evaluation, I got a bunch of work shirts and pants/skirts, and started dressing as if I were a much older working gal. I tried to wear some makeup, but it never really felt comfortable. I also wanted to project a “serious” image, and I felt like wearing makeup made me appear too “preoccupied with looks.” I had to really change my style to older and more conservative because I looked very young. If I wore a lot of makeup on top of that, it would have sent the wrong signal for the workplace.

    Finally, I find that the fact that I don’t dress up very fashionably and don’t wear makeup really cuts down on the subtle female competition. I don’t participate in the new clothes or brand names thing, and I guess in a way I sidestep the whole “pink circle.”

  • pvw

    @Ion and perhaps Sai?

    Sai, if I remember correctly, a few months ago you put up a picture of yourself for getting advice on your look. The woman in this picture, her hair reminded me of yours. Her picture was taken sometime in NYC, the late 1950s/1960s, by the photographer William Claxton, who was a well-known photographer of the jazz scene back then.

    Perhaps as women of color, this is the type of look to go for? She is described as “Mrs. Donald Byrd,” but her name is not given (grumble…), which reflects the convention of the time. Not only did married women take their husband’s name back then, but they tended to be called by their husband’s full name. I wish he had used the equally conventional (for its time) “nee,” which would have given us a sense of who she was.

    Her look is classic; today, it can easily be copied, with light make-up..

    http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photographic-discussions/207493-im-looking-famous-b-w-photo.html

  • Emily

    Ion 220,

    Exactly!!! Plus (to be blunt), I’ve found that my romantic “options” are a lot better when I put in some effort. ATM, I’m in a LTR with a “greater beta” and I tend to attract attention from beta guys (not constantly, but not infrequently either). Without the nice clothes and makeup, I’d probably have fewer approaches and would have had a smaller pool of beta betas to chose from. Plus I find that people are nicer to me in general when I look nice.

    …that being said, I’m *waaaaay* too lazy to put in the amount of effort that it would take to get an Alpha. (Plus I’m not sure if I even have the genetics to get there in the first place. :P ) It’s all about the happy medium.

  • pvw

    @ Ion and Sai, some other ideas besides that of Mrs. Donald Brown:

    http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-to-look-feminine-video.html

    I get the sense, Ion, that you are probably in this range, in terms of what you described: make up and clothes.

  • Escoffier

    Russell may be smart–I don’t doubt you, Susan–but she says some stupid things in that talk, all of them no doubt the product of a bad, blinkered education.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Russell may be smart–I don’t doubt you, Susan–but she says some stupid things in that talk, all of them no doubt the product of a bad, blinkered education.

      That’s quite a condemnation of her high school. What struck you as stupid? (I will admit she was not as articulate as I expected. I could also see that she was very nervous.)

  • J

    I find it more painful to have her feeling so miserable.

    Yeah, I think it was like that for DH too. It was very hard for him to see me suffer and not be able to make it better. Hang in there.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, I remember you talking about Cameron before on here. I got the feeling from the talk that she felt like she should have chosen a different career path. I think she does look very beautiful.

    I can believe there are men who find her candid photos “ugly” without the makeup, lighting and other changes. I’ve been lurking among the uncensored males since I was young. Some guys are just like that.

    That was another part of my conscious strategic decisions to play down my looks. I didn’t want to be with a guy like that. I was (and am) perfectly happy with “fewer approaches” because I was after a different market.

    My husband is truly the type to go for the right side Cameron than the left side.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I got the feeling from the talk that she felt like she should have chosen a different career path. I think she does look very beautiful.

      I got that same sense. She was more than self-deprecating – watching her admit the pointlessness of her profession was sad. Amazing that she was modeling by 13 or 14. IIRC, she was approached while on vacation in Maine. Her mother is a real lefty environmental activist – I wonder how she feels about her daughter’s profession. Her mom was recently on NPR, and she said that not only did Zipcar not make her a millionaire, she was barely a “hundred thousandaire.” Sounds like she sold way too early!

      I also found it interesting, though not surprising that she could flatly state both that she’d won the genetic lottery, and that she was insecure about her looks. What a f*cked up profession.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, a Cambridge HS is probably the worst place to get any kind of serious education this side of Berkeley.

    She says a lot very dumb, very PC things that she no doubt learned in Cambridge. She seems like the kind well brought up young lady who has been indoctrinated from age one–good manners, no sense. And, while I know close to nothing about the inside of the modelling world, I do know a lot about the opinions of the global elite, and modelling is nothing if not elite, hence it’s reasonable to assume that modelling has reinforced every PC thing she was already taught and introduced her to many more.

  • szopen

    @damien vulaume
    Not exactly jokes, it’s just Czech sounds really funny to Polish ears. It’s like they are using diminutives all the times, for example. We have a lot of “fake” Czech words. But we do like Czechs a lot. I know one joke about Czechs:

    Old Pole and old Czech are drinking beer together. Pole is bringing back memories of the war:
    “You know, we blew up trains, we shot at the Germans in the forests, we sabotaged the industry… eh, that were the good times. What about you, my Czech friends?”
    “I had not done anything resembling that. You see, Germans made it all illegal”.

    But the Warszawiaks are using the same joke, placing Poznaniaks in place of Czechs :)

    @makeup
    I realised recently that there is one make up thing which is really nice: a darkening of eyelashes and generally around the eyes, if the eyes are blue. My wife has yesterday returned with such a make up from a cosmetician and she looked awesome.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I realised recently that there is one make up thing which is really nice: a darkening of eyelashes and generally around the eyes, if the eyes are blue.

      Did she have her lashes dyed? If I could only use one product, it would be mascara. Thicker, darker lashes make a huge difference in a woman’s appearance.

  • Ion

    Hope

    “Finally, I find that the fact that I don’t dress up very fashionably and don’t wear makeup really cuts down on the subtle female competition.”

    That never occurred to me, but you’re probably right. :-(

    “Back in college I wore some really skimpy stuff with tons of cleavage, miniskirts ”

    It’s funny you should say that, because I definitely used to show cleavage and I don’t anymore (see pics above). But I always knew I couldn’t wear miniskirts (4′ long legs lol). But always thought my petite female friends looked great in them.

  • Ion

    Emily

    “that being said, I’m *waaaaay* too lazy to put in the amount of effort that it would take to get an Alpha. (Plus I’m not sure if I even have the genetics to get there in the first place. ) It’s all about the happy medium.”

    Hahaha I agree totally! I’m fine with the types of guys who do hit on me, and see no reason to change. I don’t like alphas, so I have no desire to attract them.

    If I had to figure out a percentage, 35% of the guys who hit on me are UMC-higher betas, 50% are tall betas (5’8-6’3 usually, being super tall myself), like 20% are wealthy older men (35-40 range). I tend to be attracted to most men and don’t have a type, so I’m fine with that for now.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Ion

    Great pics! I must confess I have serious eyebrow envy right now.

  • Ion

    Thanks Susan!

    Sadly thick eyebrows and facial hair is common among women in the caribbean (latin caribbean women too). So, I always have to use hair remover.

    I use hair remover to arch my eyebrows, and mascara on my eyebrows only (I have never used eyeliner on my brows, because it looks really obvious on me). Tweezing is too painful.

  • pvw

    Hi, Ion, great pictures! Did you once blog? You resemble someone I remember as blogging on fashion topics.

  • Ion

    “Hi, Ion, great pictures! Did you once blog? You resemble someone I remember as blogging on fashion topics.”

    Mayyyyybe. :-)

    Although I know nothing about fashion, which was kind of the in-joke. It was always more about girl politics and dejecting feminism. But my best blog friend had a fashion blog and we always cross-referenced.

    Even though I haven’t touched that blog in FOREVER, people still write saying that they love the blog, a few have offered to take up the responsibility of posting on it. I go back and forth with wanting to delete it or keep writing on it.

    Don’t post link though!

  • pvw

    @Ion:

    It was always more about girl politics and dejecting feminism

    Even though I haven’t touched that blog in FOREVER, people still write saying that they love the blog, a few have offered to take up the responsibility of posting on it. I go back and forth with wanting to delete it or keep writing on it.

    Don’t post link though!

    Me: I just happened to be looking through a listing of old blogs I used to follow, and so I wondered about it. I’m glad to see you’re here! I had no clue all this time! Even if you don’t write anymore, no need to delete it, though, as the posts were timeless and thus will always be useful. Of course, I will not post the link; I respect your privacy…

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ion, love the pics! Agree with Susan about the eyebrows. I have very unruly eyebrows. How do you get yours to stay so neat?

    Susan, short of implants, pretty lashes are not gonna happen for me. I have straight and short lashes. I often joke with my husband that I’m jealous of his eyelashes.

  • Just1Z

    @Ion – love the smile

  • Just1Z

    Polish jokes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Yf5B6GbYk

    and no, it isn’t anti Pole. You need to the get to the end of the ‘joke’ to get it.

    and his accent (when not attempting the Polish accent for the joke) is liverpudlian (he’s from Liverpool)…behold it in its full glory and beauty

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Sadly thick eyebrows and facial hair is common among women in the caribbean (latin caribbean women too).

    Not for me :( I have scarce blondish eye brows without browliner I look awful no matter how the rest of the make up looks.

  • Ion

    Thanks Just1z. :-)

    Hope, I just use off-black mascara on my eyebrows (not a full tube, but when it’s running out).

    PVW “I’m glad to see you’re here! I had no clue all this time!”

    I realized I had seen you before (with your full abbreviation typed out) a few weeks ago. I was just like “is that…p******v*****w****?” because I have been reading your comments at various places over the years :-).

  • Emily

    Ion,

    I didn’t get a chance to comment before, but you’re very pretty. :)

  • J

    @Ion

    If tweezing is painful, try waxing your brows. It’s quick and easy once you know how to do it or get used to having it done.

  • pvw

    @Ion: I realized I had seen you before (with your full abbreviation typed out) a few weeks ago. I was just like “is that…p******v*****w****?” because I have been reading your comments at various places over the years .

    Me: Yes, it is! I must admit, that with gravatar, I’m having a bit of fun playing around with images. I like photos by William Claxton, I think I mentioned earlier, and the one I’m using is one he took of Chet Baker and his wife Halima…

    @J: Thanks for clarifying re. the show Girls.

  • http://gravatar.com/pioneervalleywoman pvw

    @Ion, here it is, the profile!

  • szopen

    @Susan
    Yes, she has, but she also had her eyes contour made around.

    @Just1Z
    Thx :) I got a laugh though I had troubles with understanding first half of the show. The guys accent is really… hmm.. peculiar.

    Polish joke:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnem69g-vUM

    “I’m sorry”
    “What ‘sorry’, what ‘sorry’. You are sorry and she is hurt. Now I am sorry too”

  • Ion

    Thanks Emily! :-)

    “If tweezing is painful, try waxing your brows. It’s quick and easy once you know how to do it or get used to having it done.”

    Thanks, I’ll definitely try it. I’ve been meaning to try waxing for a while now. It’s not painful to me as 1 hair being plucked from the root.

    My middle eastern bff suggested threading from a turkish spa in NYC (for people with thick brows, it does wonders). To me, it was that same feeling of individual hairs being picked :-/. Sucked though because it looked pretty good!

  • Ion

    Pvw

    Cool. I think I may also set up gravatar. That’s an amazing image, but lol, I thought it was Dorothy Dandridge in a movie.

  • ArmyWife

    I think women should dress in what makes them feel good. Dont over do it because face it Men dont like that, but my husband always tells me that what he finds most attractive about me is my confidence in myself, That i always have a positive attitude about any situation, he likes when i wear minimal make-up or none at all, and its very true even nowdays that if you look slutty than thats what a man will think you are “(They may want a one night stand but they are still going to think your a slut) Dont portray yourself as a slut and you wont be treated like a slut” I think dressing up is great i love make-up and i love shoes, Jewelry, getting my nails and hair done but it doesnt have to be a every week thing for me to feel good about myself!! just be confident and secure in your own skin. I just dont understand why women always think they have to look good for a man ( I use to think that i always had to look perfect) Man was i wrong my hubby told me one day that i needed to relax and not try so hard because he loved me and in 30 years when were old he knows im not going to wear make-up all the time and that my skin looks way better now then it will in my 60s lol. So ladies relax be yourself and the right man will come along :)