Amusing but I think the intersection of these sets is, in reality, much larger. Most people, when being honest with themselves, understand the overwhelming majority of what the opposite sex finds attractive. The rest of it is obsessing over marginal issues. I also think I disagree with most of the things on the “what men find attractive side”.
I’ve never understood why women “wearing a guy’s things” is considered attractive. They hide a woman’s waist. I feel sorry for the women who work at places like the DMV and have to wear a man’s uniform. They are so ill-fitting: too big in the waist, too small in the hips and butt and the belts are too big. They’ve got to be uncomfortable.
@Maggie
I assume they’re referring to wearing a guy’s t-shirt (and nothing else) in the morning.
I find that a bit of a cliché though. Still think great lingerie is better.
I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary.
@HanSolo
Yes that’s what I assumed, perhaps along with the fact that his clothes will look big on her, making her look petite/feminine and making him feel masculine?
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.
I think guys like seeing their own girls wearing their things. It’s about possession and marking territory. The best example of this is probably the 1950s uniform of wearing a guy’s letter jacket and class ring on a chain when you were “going steady.”
I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary.
Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.
Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.
In general, I would say that young women wear too much makeup. A strong smoky eye during the daytime, or heavy eyeliner in an office environment is not appropriate – it’s too obviously sexual in that context. Vamping it up for seduction is fun, but it’s not for everyday wear, IMO. It also has the unfortunate effect of leaving nowhere to go. We keep upping the ante to make female appearance more sexual in every day life.
There was a time when a scrubbed face and a glimpse of stockinged ankle passed the boner test. We’ve lost all sense of subtlety.
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage?
I know you read Rules Revisited – Andrew has a real thing for dangly earrings. I think anything that draws the eye to a fertility feature, e.g. feminine jaw, full lips, cleavage, is going to be popular with men. Jewelry does that. I suspect most men would say they couldn’t care less about a woman’s watch or bangle bracelets.
I’m thinking back to when girls have worn mine and it really was the best if she would say something along the lines of liking wearing my shirt so that it made me feel like she was mine. It did make her seem a bit vulnerable too with the oversized shirt.
I personally love jewelry on a woman that could be described as “simple elegance.” Nothing too gaudy. So, yes, a nice silver or platinum necklace, with perhaps a sapphire pendant and matching sapphire earrings. Or gold… And a nice cleavage, accented by a necklace is well, nice. lol
I will admit I find most the things in the pink circle great when done right – expect oversized sunglasses.
Makeup definitely – when guys think a girl is wearing ‘too much makeup’, she’s just wearing the wrong kind. Also the more time you spend, the better it looks. Most likely this girl is wearing a LOT and it has taken a good hour to apply, but it still looks great (IMO): http://primped.ninemsn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Rosie-Huntington-Whiteley1.jpg
I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.
I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary
Interesting comment. My own look has always been as natural as possible and my husband seems to like that, but “Wear make-up” is common advise to women from male commenters in the ‘sphere. Additionally, two of the female bloggers most popular with ‘spherians claim to have dyed their hair “porn star blonde” at their husbands request. These are women hailed by male commenters as the “ones who really get it,” so it’s hard to know just what you guys want.
Personally, I hate it when my wife wears my clothes. I’m afraid she might get it dirtied, but she usually doesn’t so it is my irrational fear. The best thing is we wear our own clothes. Women tend to share their clothing, yet they still complain about it whether they borrow clothing without asking, or worse, if their friends do ask, and they really don’t want to share. Thankfully, I never asked my wife for that beautiful skirt that she has. Besides, I can’t fit in them.
As for makeup, I think every woman should wear the minimum necessary makeup. I never suggest that women should wear no makeup. When I see those situations, it is obvious that many women need makeup. The difference is the amount of foundation and eye makeup. If you have bad skin, the makeup becomes more obvious.
Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.
Ha! You caught that too. You know, I’d bet there’s a correlation between the character of a relationship and the amount of make-up the man likes. It seems like the women at HUS who have strong, often more egaliterian, relationships, where there is a friendship (you, me) and/or shared spiritual thing (Hope) between the couple, keep it pretty natural I’d also guess that those women have prettier, as opposed sexier, lingerie (flowing, floral nighties vs crouchless panties and stripper heels) and wear lighter perfume if at all.
Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.
DH thinks he hates make-up and bitches if he sees me put it on. If it’s already on, he often just thinks I look a little nicer than usual. He hates dramatic make-up. If I’m dressed to the nines, I’ll wear a berry-colored lipstick. It’s way too obvious for him.
@Han
Fun earrings. A bit young for me, but I liked that sort of thing when I was younger.
@Anne
Of course you find the stuff in the pink circle “great when done right” – you’re a girl.
I have to admit, most of the stuff in the pink circle I don’t even notice. There’s a few things that may draw my eye to cleavage, as Susan mentioned about earring and necklaces, but other than that I’m not really taking note of of “pink-stuff” (if you will), and jewelry specifically.
I’d suggest girls use the same rule as only highlighting one physical feature at a time, and not over do too many things at once. For example, tons of jewelry is going to signal being high maintenance and having expensive taste, to some men. (Perhaps more so than what you’d gain from drawing his eye)
I’ve never, consciously that I can remember, ever liked a girl, over another, based on her amount of jewelry, or makeup. But I have consciously liked how one girl had, seemingly, less than another.
“Also the more time you spend, the better it looks.”
I’m not sure that’s the best rule of thumb.
@Tomato
Re: reversed diagram
I was wondering the same.
Random factoid–About 25 years ago, I read a survey of politics, sex and lingerie. Female Democrats slept in flannel nightgowns; female Republicans slept in sexier lingerie. Oddly, female Democrats had more sex with their husbands than female Republicans.
In so many ways. Of course modesty is a good way to bring it back. And considering how rare the modest, subtle things are, I think many women would be pleasantly surprised how men respond to a woman who stands out – steps out – from the hyper-sexualized sheep-race of self-exposure. IMO, it shows a certain strength or confidence to go her own way and in a dull grey sea of boots-skirt-tank-scarf-handbag-huge sunglasses my eyes tend to seek out a bit of subtle style or novelty or mystery all on their own.
E.g. I recently met a woman at a holiday party – the perfect venue for overdoing it. I can’t even remember exactly what she was wearing, but I do know that there was very little skin showing – but for her neck line and just a bit of shoulder. I wanted to trace her collarbone into next year. Either I’m crazy or some of those boner tests still work just fine; they just aren’t tested often enough.
Oh, and she had on very little makeup and her only accessories (that I noticed) were little green earrings that, upon closer inspection, were actually frogs wearing berets. I got kudos for noticing them and thought they were a really cute contrast to her otherwise elegant presence. Turned out she is a Francophone. Her Dad gave them to her as a kind of joke. Sadly, she doesn’t live here and by now is back in Paris. Fingers crossed though, she’s applied to a PhD program in town.
IMO, skin is ubiquitous these days; I want to wonder, imagine. Sure, there is a time and place for something racy, but I find that more attractive when it is for me alone, not a walking billboard for sex-culture trends. In the meantime, when in doubt, let off the gas.
You mentioned the other day about women posing/faking for pictures. I can’t stand that. In fact, when looking through pictures with someone I am dating, I almost always point out the ones that may have caught them off guard or were taken without them knowing. There is just something more genuine, sweeter, about seeing someone in their natural state as opposed to some character-actor posing.
The FB, pinterest, etc. obsession has taken over and now every moment is a potential way to advertise our awesomeness. A big part of the art of being subtle, of modesty itself, is to have faith that you are more than an image and that the people who really matter – or will matter – know that too. With the loss of subtlety, we’ve also lost discovery, which is part of what makes us feel alive and I think make for stronger bonds.
Your pic of the model looks fairly low key and natural. I think there’s a difference between using makeup to create a flawless natural look and using it to create a sexy look. In the states we have makeup companies that specialize in both. MAC Cosmetics was founded by a theater makeup artist, and the eyeshadows are extremely bright colors – the whole look is extremely dramatic and theatrical. Bobbi Brown or Laura Mercier are much more subtle – mostly neutrals and a focus on finish rather than color.
Obviously, young women can get away with much more dramatic looks. I’ve gone with a more natural look as I’ve aged.
FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).
I am probably influenced by other women, and the fact that I have dated a couple of men who prefer a really sophisticated look and DO like ‘expensive clothes’ (I am beginning to realize it’s not the norm).
Susan, did you see the post on RR regarding men’s perception of women? Something about how “men have no clue why they find a woman hot”. Men have a tendency to just see a woman as “hot” and I believe that. They are not aware of all the things we do to make ourselves attractive. Which is why I am always skeptical of (straight) men giving advice on hair, makeup etc. I vary my makeup, clothes and hairdos a lot and I will check the response I get. But I believe a guy will mostly think “today she looks good” rather than being aware of the specifics. Same way they can see a woman with highlights and well-done makeup and think it is her natural hair colour and she’s makeup free.
I do know that there was very little skin showing – but for her neck line and just a bit of shoulder. I wanted to trace her collarbone into next year. Either I’m crazy or some of those boner tests still work just fine; they just aren’t tested often enough.
Wow, that’s interesting. It sounds like if women were to hit the reset button, men really wouldn’t object. I think it all depends too on what men are looking for. One’s makeup and dress send signals, whether we realize it or not. A man who is interested in a STR will obviously seek clues that imply sexual experience and expertise. A sexy look does that. Men more LTR oriented will probably appreciate some sense of deliberate withholding of overt sexuality. This is a controversial topic – I’ve seen male bloggers say this is nonsense, and they just appreciate a good looking woman period, the sexier the better. I’m not so sure, as most of those bloggers are unattached.
Sadly, she doesn’t live here and by now is back in Paris. Fingers crossed though, she’s applied to a PhD program in town.
Oh, that does sound promising! I hope you will keep us posted, it sounds like the two of you had real chemistry.
There is just something more genuine, sweeter, about seeing someone in their natural state as opposed to some character-actor posing.
I agree. In fact, I’ve seen candid photos of women that were easily 1 or 2 points higher in SMV than ones of them giving a big fake smile for the camera. I’ve noticed that modeling portfolios are almost always of women not smiling. Not sure what the significance of that is, and I know that OKCupid says women who smile directly at the camera get more messages.
With the loss of subtlety, we’ve also lost discovery, which is part of what makes us feel alive and I think make for stronger bonds.
A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. She has seen him three times, no sex. He told her he was really glad she’d put on the brakes, so she asked me when she should go forward. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.” I said that I thought he’d made it clear he actually appreciated waiting, that delaying sex a bit will create anticipation and an opportunity for discovery. If he’s courting her, it’s not just about sex. If she explains she does not do casual (which is true) then that’s a good filter. He’ll either be interested in something more or he won’t.
Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.
If changing hair/makeup will improve a woman’s SMV, that’ll give the guy something nicer to look at and that’s better, right? (I’m scared of being too ‘simple’ because I’d feel plainer, and some simple things to me scream “boring/old lady!” But I’m not a guy.)
What generally male interests are highest priority for women to learn about?
Men have a tendency to just see a woman as “hot” and I believe that. They are not aware of all the things we do to make ourselves attractive. Which is why I am always skeptical of (straight) men giving advice on hair, makeup etc
It’s true, most men are not really qualified to give that kind of feedback. For example, my husband will say “You look lovely tonight” but he would never say, “I’d go a bit easier on the blush, but you might add a coat of mascara.” Never. When I put on makeup, I fill in my brows. To me, the difference is very noticeable, but Mr. HUS has never once in 30 years mentioned it. It’s usually a general thumbs up kind of response.
>> “FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).”
I think that strategy will only work for the very hottest women. One trait that I notice in many “beta females” is a flat-out refusal to play around with their appearance (ie. makeup, nice clothes etc.) Many of them eventually end up pairing up, but I think it’s DESPITE (rather than because of) the lack of effort they put into their appearance.
@Anne, with respect to jewelry I would say that if most of us like it, we don’t know it. You could probably set up some kind of blinded experiment and show whether we react better with or without it. I suspect it would have little effect.
With respect to the idea that men like different things, of course that is true. But, stating that men find natural hair color and texture attractive is absurd. This guy is implying that no man prefers straight over curly, or blond over brown? I guess the reason is that if a guy likes blondes, he prefers it be real. That isn’t the same thing as finding the natural brunette more attractive than the dyed blonde. That strikes me as something we would like to think about ourselves, but is rarely true.
@Susan
“Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.”
Yes! incongruence is a killer. This has happened to me more than once. It is frustrating because once that initial image takes hold it is really hard to put that cat back in the bag. And its worse when it is more than just the visual image, when they use language and stories and dabble in that shock-vulgar Chelsea Handler kinda vibe that they think says sexy-powerful-independent, but for me (LTR-oriented man) says: run.
Your point about how all of this is also about what type of man, situation you wish to attract is spot on. Women can filter in more ways than they realize, but more importantly they need to be aware of that incongruence, if it is indeed the case. I know it must be tricky, to be sexy but in the “right” ways relative to what you are seeking to attract, but sometimes the right choice means limiting our options (exposure). It may not feel right at the time, but may save some heartache down the road.
Many men are indeed singularly focused: sexy/hot or not, but I’m just not wired that way. I see the slutty look and sure the boner test works, but I’m not thinking “wife” either. The challenge is that in the SMP there is a race to the bottom in terms of attraction. STR attraction is the default gateway. So we’ve got a lot of potential for cat-back-in-the-bag situations.
Maybe the younger men are more used to it and don’t have much to compare it to, but I grew up in an time where there was a lot more mystery and when looking “slutty” was a “bad” thing.
There is also the challenge of the porn culture influence. At some point young women will have to decide how far they are willing to go to compete with the unrealistic images being absorbed – and in more ways than just their appearance. Strange how all of that empowerment seems to be just lowering the bar. Aside from players, sluts, and dirty old men at the bus-stop, I don’t see who is gaining from this trend.
Well, some men like a lot of makeup and some men don’t. The solutions for gals therefore are:
1) change your behavior depending on the man in your life’s (or the man you want to be in your life’s) preferences.
2) pick one or the other based on what you want and target/attract the men who like that.
Same thing applies if you’re talking about men and facial hair. Simple!
This is pretty good, plus/minus 2-3 items. I’m sure it varies from guy to guy (for some it must be spot on and for others off by a lot more), but I think in general it’s pretty good.
@Susan 28
I agree with you that LTR oriented men value selective chastity a lot more than overt sexuality. If done right it sends a signal of “easy for me, difficult for anyone else” that is exactly what a relationship minded guy is looking for. “Easy for everyone” signals, like showing lots of skin in public, are much more effective at attracting guys who want STRs.
I really had an epiphany recently watching JennaMarbles videos.
The contrast between “hair pulled back – glasses – no make up – sports bra” and “hair done – contacts – make up applied – dress” for me was earth shattering. The first combination makes her look like a regular teen boy. The second makes her look like a mid-level porn star. (I am saying that as a good thing – just so that you know)
She also makes a great observation “Most people, who first introduced themselves to me during college daytime, later had to introduce themselves the second time when they met me again at some party – because they did not recognize me as being one and the same person! And the first thing they usually did after realizing that, was to look at my boobs and say “But where did these come from?!”"
So to finish the discussion about men and their preference in make up – it depends on a girl. To quote Jenna:
“Of course you could try going for the natural look – but admit it, you are way too ugly to pull it off. Remember kids, there is no cure for ugly, but you can turn yourself into a human optical illusion.”
“A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.””
This is pretty much where I’m at.
When you say, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR,” do you mean, literally, wait for him to do it?
I’m so used to putting on the breaks, as a pre-cautionary measure, that having them put on, to give me a chase, seems like such a passive-slowfade (rejection). Which is probably why I called her flaky for so long.
“I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.”
Ask several men about this — I think you’ll be surprised to find that most men don’t agree.
I used to highlight my hair to be much lighter than its natural dark blonde, thinking it was prettier that way. This was emphasized by my hairdresser — a homosexual — who would always say, “And now you’re beautiful again!” when he was done highlighting me each time. When I went back to my natural color, which my husband had never seen before, he surprised me by claiming he liked it much better without the highlights.
Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.
I think the best thing to do is to pay attention to the girls that the guys you like like. Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.
It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.
A poll of 2,000 debunks the myth that they spend hours in front of a mirror on a Saturday night to impress men.
The truth is, two thirds are trying to encourage compliments from their peers.
Six out of ten women aged between 18 and 30 said they had their girlfriends in mind when they chose what to wear on a big night out.
And more than a quarter said the most genuine compliments they received came from women they don’t know – not men. Yesterday a spokesman for Simple skincare, which commissioned the report, said:
‘There is an assumption that women go all out to impress the opposite sex, but this research has revealed this isn’t always the case.
‘The fact that so many women care about what their peers think of their appearance is only natural.’
She added: ‘On the whole, women are much more in the know when it comes to clothes, make-up and style, so it’s not a surprise that girls go out to impress other women as opposed to men.’
Two thirds of women believe that men say they look good regardless of what they look like and just say it as standard, without thinking.
And 48 per cent of women polled actually prefer to get a compliment from a female stranger as opposed to a man.
Why can this be ?
Anyway the comment on that thread which attracted a lot of censure was this one :
Women dress to out compete other women to impress men. So in the end they are dressing for men.
but this woman said the basically the same thing and got applauded :
Actually it is all about instinctive competition. Beauty is the trump card for acquiring the best mate and often one who has the resources to best feather the nest. It is no surprise that with the advent of plastic surgery, that boobs jobs are now common. In an ideal world these things should not matter, but we have a complex brain that at its core, still has many instinctive behaviours operating.
And this woman’s comment was utterly fascinating :
Good grief, someone only just worked this out? Women don’t need anything fancy to attract men, and the clothing women they wear is to establish a social pecking order with each other. You see this every day when women write on here to shred apart a woman’s outfit seen in a photograph. I think it’s quite funny, personally. Thank god men don’t function like this!
And, oh yes, the NAWALT is strong with this one :
Do we now? Well thats a thought that has never entered my head whilst chosing what to wear. Maybe shallow women dress to impress other shallow women, but lots of women dont. FACT!
I don’t often notice how “dark” I am until I see pictures of myself next to our baby! In Asian culture skin lightening is huge, and makeup is designed to lighten skin. I was called ugly because of my darker skin tone.
Susan, I look awful when I don’t smile in pictures. Maybe other women can pull it off, but not me!
HanSolo, yeah, I would look utterly ridiculous with lighter hair.
That Jenna Marbles video is satire – you’re supposed to think she is disgusting by the end of her “makeover.” She actually does look very boyish and young with no makeup on, I think her regular look is somewhere in the middle.
When you say, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR,” do you mean, literally, wait for him to do it?
I realize that isn’t a very clear statement, and I probably shouldn’t have used the word “ride” haha. What I meant was, she should delay having sex with this man until they have agreed to be in an exclusive relationship. I think that’s what he is going for, so her making that a condition strengthens her position as LTR material. I think he will either readily accede to exclusivity or want to take more time re commitment but be willing to delay sex.
FTR, this is not a price discrimination situation. This woman is 23, N = 3, all relationships. However, in the past she has been anxious about the timing of sex and has done the fingers crossed thing before actually having the convo. This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.
Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.
+1 on this whole comment.
The dollars spent on conforming to fashion mag ideals, not to mention the eating disorders and those related costs, both financial and physical, is astounding.
What a treat, I looked thru your album twice. Aidan is such a beautiful boy and his range of facial expression had me laughing out loud. What a character!
You look beautiful in your photo, and I must point out that few women are in a position to look that good with zero makeup. You are blessed and should be thankful!
Might I also add that in pics 58 and 116 Mr. Hope also looks rather hunky.
Thanks for the new pics. Aidan is gorgeous! He pics of him sitting up and looking around remind me a lot of my boys at that age–not the looks (obviously), but the alert and intelligent facial expressions. Aidan seems to be taking it all in.
This is such a fun age; it’s when they wake up and begin to explore and you start seeing their personalities. Soon he’ll get cranky over his lack of mobility as his ability to see exceeds his reach. Then, when he’s crawling and cruising and walking, he’ll really take off and be into everything. It’s a lot of fun. You get to re-experience everything being new as he discovers things.
Sue: “This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.”
Good idea. You want to phrase not as commitment or love or FB-official, but disavowing all other options. I suggest a page from my wife’s script (though admittedly it was after sex): “Are you seeing anyone else? I don’t date people who are playing the field.” If yes, give him a chance to break things off. If no, you’re good to go.
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.
Anne,
I like it, but I am the type of guy who definitely prefers a certain “look”. I think guys fall into two camps here based on what I’ve seen in these comment threads over the past couple of years. My fiancee is a make-up artist and wears make-up a lot. She also is big into costume jewelry, and always wears jewelry when we go out. She also always has her nails (both fingers and toes) done and has nail appointments every other week. I very much like the “totality” of that “look”….hair done, makeup on, jewelry, nails. In contrast, I’ve noted some guys here seem to strongly prefer the “natural” look which honestly to me just seems plain or bland. They probably like long hair on a girl, but other than that no makeup, no jewelry, no manicured or pedicured nails is their preference. I’m the analytical type, and I think there are some clear patterns that repeat in terms of what types of guys prefer what. So I think a lot depends on what type of guy you want to attract in terms of a more “made-up, decorative” appearance such as using jewelry versus a more minimalist look.
Susan, thanks. My husband is quite hunky, and yes our boy makes some hilarious faces.
About makeup, I have seen lots of women in my life with and without makeup, and I personally think they all look better without. I am not a man of course, but the idea that “most women” who are in shape and healthy can’t look good sans makeup seems off to me.
J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).
I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.
Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.
I wouldn’t worry about the eye contact thing just yet – it’s just too early for that. I distinctly recall my oldest doing that for a while and he’s not even close to being alspie. Of the kids that I do know on the spectrum (my middle son is mild aspie, my godson is strong, but neither are disabled) it becomes obvious something is off very quickly, and there will be lots of correlated symptoms.
Sounds like you already have a really good handle on customizing your look and figuring out how various males respond. There may actually be a corollary here to the advice often given to men. Observe what women do, not what they say. The parallel might be ignore what men say about makeup and dress, and observe which of your “looks” garner the most interest.
Couple of things. There could be a difference between interest and approachability that explains some of the previous comments. The fact is most men don’t have the cajones to cold approach. Approaching is intimidating. So take a natural 7-8 who is a dolled up 8-9 and even though she looks great, she may be unapproachable for the vast majority of men whereas she may be more approachable when she is sweaty from her jog. The other things is most men don’t know diddly squat about make-up which you have correctly pointed out. I’m in a pretty unique position with my SO being a professional make-up artist so I understand the difference between several different looks. I think when many men say they don’t like a “made-up” look what they are really saying is they don’t like the caked on looks with tons and tons of makeup applied horribly wrong with bad colors. In some ways, make-up done well is like a guy running masterfullly tight Game. You are oblivious to it.
Simple necklace + studs (not sure what else to call them but hanging Christmas tree decorations off your ears is an not attractive unless your dumbo and need a perceived size reduction)
On makeup,
Depends upon the situation. Personally I prefer a light touch of I think its called touch up and thats it. Maybe some pale lipstick if we’re going out.
On the other hand sometimes its nice to have a woman who knows how to slut it up a bit. Variety and all that.
On lingerie.
My wife tried to surprise me recently with a according to her peach, not a colour but whatever set (personally I think it was the same colour as cooked salmon). Not so good.
Black, pink, red, teal-blueish colours. Bright.
Not peach.
Like the longish nightgowns or corsets.
Hate thongs, make me think of Larry the Cable guy.
Tight underwear that cover about 1/2-3/4 of the ass suffice.
Stockings with the little strap bit that connects to the top bit. OHH HELL YES.
@Stickwick
“Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. ”
+1 for me too.
And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often. I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well. And it never seems to occur to women that gay men typically have an entirely different drive, set of priorities, and view of intimacy and relationships.
In all of these cases the women have also failed to see that ironically the gay men they seek counsel from are in a perpetual state of juggling “relationships” and other behaviors and perspectives that would be a massive turnoff if a straight man operated that same way. They just think “hey you like penis, you must know what makes men tick, gets them off” and run with it. You don’t see guys cornering lesbian women for tips and trade secrets.
Friends are important sounding boards regardless of orientation, but there is a cultural undercurrent that seems to be very similar to how the fashion-beauty market has been co-opted.
Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.
Right…that is what I was referring to above. The Snookie/Jersey Shore/”Guidette” look is that caked on overdone look. Re Snookie, my fiancee actually dressed as Snookie for Halloween. It was a riot…but I joked don’t ever look like that in real day to day life. Maybe later when I’m on the home PC I’ll post the pic.
OffTheCuff, thanks for the info. When would you say the correlated symptoms start showing up, and what are they?
Mike C, I think it’s a spectrum of male preferences. For Thanksgiving and Christmas we see the family, and some female relatives wore makeup, which was tastefully applied and not “Snookie” at all. But my husband still pointed it out as “too much makeup.” He is very firmly in the natural camp.
I found Anne’s example to be FAR too much makeup, and far too clumsily-applied; she looks like she’s made of resin.
Point blank: pink circle stuff is things that women do for themselves. Which isn’t to say that there’s anything wrong with any of it — but if I were to make a list of things that guys did for themselves, and expected that women would find it awesomely attractive, people would rightfully accuse me of being distinctly narcissistic.
@ Tasmin
“I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well”
There are quite a few American tv shows in Europe which glorify gay men. They don’t just know fashion better, they know everything better. Whether it’d be food, culture, what women are meant to look like (no breasts or hips) or even politics (apparently they know unborn children better than straight people). They know women’s sexual desires better and have the recipe for successful dating. They have a better sense of humour too. Despite being so ‘strong’ in every way, they are still feeble enough not to be argued with or criticized.
A bit of a rant, but many of the issues which are debated on HUS (and are especially problematic in the US) has to do with gay culture being forced on women. I do think gay men are strong enough to take the debate, it doesn’t make the rest of us homophobes.
J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).
That is so cool. I loved all that when my guys were little.
I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.
If he’s meeting social milestones, I wouldn’t worry. He looks like he is developing very well from the pics. Also, I notice that boy babies really like to look around a lot and check out the environment. I used to hold the boys looking towards me, and DH would hold them looking outward and away from him. I think that’s something of an innate male preference.
Also, babies don’t seem to notice that you and they are separate individuals until about 6 months. That’s when they start to really be social.
Sue, what makes it not threatening is that it’s stated in the form of a clear boundary, not a demand (“do X”) or some meaningless label (“am I your girlfriend?”).
Hope, it was well before two. My godson had strong sensory issues from day one. My son was the most easy-going baby, but then just changed on a dime one day when he was a toddler. Now, my wife was really on top of things because she is K12 trained and deals with lots of kids, so we got an early diagnosis – but my godson’s mother waited quite a bit longer as she was constantly told “oh, he’ll grow out of it” and suffered quite a bit with problems at preschool.
It was kind of a crazy-fast relationship where we had a couple months together and I moved 1800 miles away and she moved to Africa. She said up front that she was moving away and didn’t do distance very well unless she was highly bonded already but I was so smitten that I said it was worth trying. Also, I came on way too strong at first but somehow didn’t scare her off, then later I distanced myself emotionally and gradually she got more into me. We became very good friends and lovers and had some of the best moments of my life together. But the long-distance thing made her fall out of love/infatuation with me. As she was losing attraction for me in Africa due to our different time zones and both having lots of work, so little contact, I realized how much I really loved her underneath my anesthetized exterior layers.
Though it didn’t work out, it was totally worth the attempt.
what women are meant to look like (no breasts or hips)
This is a real pet peeve of mine. It definitely goes straight to what gay males have dictated. The result is a dramatic masculinization over time in beauty ideals. My favorite example is to trash Giselle Bundchen for this. She has no (natural) breasts and her WHR is about .9. I think you would really like this site, btw.
No chance. She has a bf who she thinks is the one and they live together.
I did see her a year after we’d broken up and there was still an incredible friendship and conversation chemistry but she had started dating the other guy by then and to me it was just too painful to realize how awesome she was and be in her presence so I dialed back the contact a lot. But we still write a note every 6 mo. or so just to say hi.
There will be someone else, and when it’s not so much work and so anxiety producing, you’ll know she’s the one. It sounds trite, but when it works, it really works, it’s easy. The people I know who married after ups and downs, breakups and getting back together, generally have rather tumultuous marriages, though they did last.
I met her on POF. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten so excited reading someone’s profile as hers. It was definitely strong infatuation at first read (I think she only had one blurry picture so it wasn’t even so much on looks though I could tell she was at least cute) and she turned out to be as cool and genuine in person as she portrayed herself in her profile. Hers was the total opposite of the bitchy, too-masculine, ball-busting stereotypical profile that many women put up.
I met her on POF. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten so excited reading someone’s profile as hers. It was definitely strong infatuation at first read (I think she only had one blurry picture so it wasn’t even so much on looks though I could tell she was at least cute)
She could seduce you, using only her words … what a remarkable woman … what a truly remarkable woman.
This is the whole thing that F’s me up is that with the handful of girls that I ever fell strongly in love with over time I could feel an almost instant attraction to who they were inside, as if through their body language, eyes, and lack of the 1000-cock stare I could tell that they had the kind of personality and character that I liked. I don’t know if women can understand this but I can usually get a good read on whether a woman fits my personality type just by observing her quickly. Not sure how many other men are like this but in those cases where I later grew to love the woman there was a definite huge ability to perceive her character almost immediately. These girls I have in mind were also pretty and so I was physically attracted but ironically enough I didn’t really lust after them at all at first because the other things I look for were there and so it was a much more in-love as opposed to in-lust feeling.
In practical terms though, assuming that I can discern quickly, then it means I just have to really keep the spillways shut and feign a certain level of indifference and intellectually choose to be more skeptical and think up every possible flaw or doubt so as to not like her as much or show it, until she catches up.
But with this girl, there was huge conversation chemistry on our first date, at Border Cafe in Harvard Square. Hmmm, fond memories.
I don’t remember a lot of specifics but she just had a real positive zest for life and came across as low-maintenance, happy, and grateful, someone who liked to explore the world and cared about people.
I think that if a woman is looking for a good guy then she needs to develop that side of her and advertise it, not the bitchy, entitled, stuck-up and ball-busting attitudes so often seen on online profiles and in real life.
J, wow that is right on! My husband definitely likes to hold him facing outwards, and I usually hold him facing me. Fascinating that gender differences come out so strongly in parenting.
HanSolo, my husband is an NF and exactly the same way. He has a very good “read” on people. He recognized that we were on the same “wavelength” immediately.
He didn’t feign “indifference” with me, but he was cautious. Meanwhile, I was like “what’s caution?” and bought him a plane ticket to see me after just a week or two of talking to him.
Incidentally, a girl I know from school days just got engaged. She is much as you described, happy, positive, loves to explore and cares about people. She has over a thousand friends on Facebook, but she’s not some type of social media queen. She just radiates LOVE and is genuinely nice, and I couldn’t help but love her. Undoubtedly others love her, too. She’s done lots of volunteering, is brilliant, talented, kind, and does tons of outdoorsy stuff like mountain climbing (which she and her fiance do together).
In esoteric spiritual terms, she has a strong 4th density aura. I’d be jealous of her if I didn’t admire her so much. What’s cool is that her fiance is in grad school for applied mathematics, the same field in which my husband got his graduate degree.
Just wait till you take Aidan to the park, and he climbs the monkey bars. I promise that your husband will urge him to climb higher. and you’ll tell him to be careful.
I am an INF(J/P*). Interesting to hear that about your husband. You also seem like someone who was in a position, or inherently able, to see his value faster than many women who like to take their time. Whatever, you want to call it, I have to hold back my interest and calibrate against the woman’s, especially if it’s one I can discern is a good match.
The description of that girl sounds very close to her. Hopefully, someday, I’ll find someone similar.
*my value was nearly neutral but slight J but as I talked with a guy who knew a lot about it he thought I was more P
<i.The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.
Yes. If you are wearing professional clothes, you need to have the polish that make-up gives.
Me: Hell yes. My daytime work look most closely resembles the last one on the right; my casual running around town most closely resembles the minimalist look of lip gloss.
@Hope: Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.
Me: She could have been bi-racial (Asian/Euro), like Aidan! He looks very cute, by the way!
will you kindly tell me what a fourth density aura is ? I know that there are people who can see auras, and that their colors tell a lot about them, like :
Red – person is a criminal.
Green – person is unhappy.
Yellow – person is very sick.
Blue – knowledge seekers.
White with dark edges – person is about to die.
I have taken a look at this Venn diagram, and have a couple personal quibbles I will share.
Wearing a guy’s things:
I suppose it can be cute, but only if she’s already cute. This is not make-or-break at all. Really, I would think that I mark her as my own with my penis (and associated biological material), not my t-shirt.
Knowledge of things that interest men:
A little is nice, but my tastes seem to run counter to a lot of what I hear. I recall some line about how the ultimate girlfriend would say something like, “We should move up our tee time so that we’ll be home in time for kickoff.” Er, no, I don’t need this. I would be perfectly happy for my woman to have her own interests, preferably in which she excels. I’m sure I could really enjoy doing my type of activities with her sometimes, but I would really like her to do her own, maybe more feminine, things. When I ask about her day or the things she does, I’d like it to be a bit interesting and novel.
I would be concerned about a girl who wanted to drink beer and yell at the TV every game day.
Hair type/color comments:
I don’t know. I have a huge thing for Marilyn Monroe. What’s wrong with a little excitement? Do dye and a curling iron somehow indicate high-maintenance, diva headaches? I would want a girl who’s lively and exciting, and who is special and knows it. None of this automatically makes her distastefully conceited.
All of this simple. leisurely, composed, casual business sounds a little too lobotomized for my tastes. Having said that I have a hunch I’m not the average guy.
PS on the hair business:
I’ve started to wonder if my favorite hairstyle on a woman is semi-short like Marilyn’s. I’m trying to understand why this might be. To me such a hairstyle is maybe a way of saying ‘I’m feisty and a little edgy, and I won’t roll over just because you say so,’ which I think I find fairly attractive. (I don’t like it really short like Halle Berry.) I like ‘em submissive, but only in the sense that they put up a fight only to be dominated. Longer hair somehow indicates docility to the point of boredom to me.
Could be a pile of BS on my part though. It’s all conjecture.
Anyway, happy new year to you all.
108The Rebound GirlfriendJanuary 8, 2013 at 7:41 pm
The pink circle has nothing to do with what women think men find attractive. Its all about what women find attractive for themselves, and also what they think other women find attractive.
She could have been bi-racial (Asian/Euro), like Aidan! He looks very cute, by the way!
Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)
In the Sixties, when I was in college, modesty and fashion combined to hint at what might be available, should a guy play his cards right. And in those days, it was a lot of cards. A lot of cards.
That allowed women to do the display thing while simultaneously being just fine for class or work. Makeup varied.
In fact, even parties didn’t see much difference. More formal, maybe, more dress-up, but still a fair amount of fabric.
I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!
In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.
Every time we talk about this issue I am reminded of the movie Swept Away (the original, by Lina Wertmuller). It’s a fascinating look at dominance and submission, and I find it very sexy. I wouldn’t want to live it, but watching it was really a turn on. I highly recommend the film.
I started looking through that pink circle downwards from the top and when the first items were about makeup and hair care, I got the sense that this was going to be a male equivalent of the numerous blurbs on conventionally accepted but (usually) incorrect female attraction triggers.
I mean the ‘Oh no, I’m not attracted to assertiveness in men. He needs to be respectful most of all.’ lines, you know the drill.
‘Oh no, I don’t like it when girls are all made up, it’s more important what’s inside’
Not to discount that naturally you’d do well to have some substance behind the pretty impression too, but well-applied and discreet routine makeup does in fact improve the lizard-brain level attractiveness noticeably. Not night-and-day, but enough to make it count. And since women tend to apply makeup daily, I guess you do understand this instinctively on some level, a bit like we men instinctively act a bit cocky and cheeky around girls. Aunt Haley had a post about this same area a few months ago:
The pink circle has nothing to do with what women think men find attractive. Its all about what women find attractive for themselves, and also what they think other women find attractive.
Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?
That allowed women to do the display thing while simultaneously being just fine for class or work.
That’s the sweet spot. I wonder if I might convince some women to try going the modest route for a period of time, say a month, and report back on whether they were perceived differently by males.
@Susan: Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)
Me: Feel free–you have much to look forward to! I’m glad to hear all is well in that regard. I tend to gush on the types at my end, black mom/white dad, all sorts of fantastic mixes, complexions all over the place, hair texture, color, eye color….Very exotic and striking….You never know what you will get!
“In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.”
Sounds kind of scripted. I expect a fight, which I expect to win. Might as well phone it in. If I were in that situation, I’d be really annoyed at having to play a phony role in response to…a phony role.
As I mentioned many threads back, and Ted D. agreed, there are a lot of things I don’t care about. Like restaurants, which apparently are really, really important to women, or stand in for a lot of other things. So if I’m going to get all assertive and dominant and all that crap, and put my foot down about where we’re going, I have to insist on something I chose by throwing a dart at the Yellow Pages over my shoulder.
How about a woman who’s grown up enough not to need that fake crap? If she needs macho, she can see me eyeball off a couple of guys approaching our DIL. ‘course there’s the fact that recent retinal surgery gives me a massive shiner and a sullen, expressionless face. Actually, the latter is mine own. They didn’t actually wet themselves, but it was kind of funny.
The way I see it, if I want to exercise some force I need something to push against. There are women out there who would just love to fight their hardest and ultimately be conquered. To them it’s not phony at all. If they don’t push then how do they know they’re not actually dating a wuss? It’s serious(ly erotic) to them.
I’m mostly talking about sex and related physical things, if people think I’m talking about arguing about when to walk the dog or something.
I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her.
That’s why there’s a slight whiff of manly(?) rationalization about this graph. Yes, keeping your natural hair type is nice, if it’s something I already like. Yes, wearing my T-shirts is endearing, but only if you’re already mine. Of course, if we’ve ended up together, chances are that I did like your natural hair type and color (can’t ever remember having a preference for the latter, though) so listing it here is like a… what? A self-proving argument?
Apart from the natural hair points (which are likely negligible), I’m pretty certain that none of the things in the blue circle are turnoffs for any men apart from some serious outliers. And some them may actually be really good selling points for some particular man. I’ve been seduced once over a few weeks of online chat about mutual interests that got deeper into more personal stuff over time. I wasn’t interested at first but she ‘won me over’ over those weeks and we were together for half a year until our long-term plans turned out to be too mismatched. Anyway, the point was that I can point out a case where ‘Knowledge of things that interest men’ was a definite factor in developing attraction, but then again, I’m a pretty cerebral man.
120The Rebound GirlfriendJanuary 8, 2013 at 9:23 pm
“I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her. ”
How is this a “complaint”? Of course there’s an assumption of a baseline f physical attraction. Why wouldn’t there be?
121The Rebound GirlfriendJanuary 8, 2013 at 9:24 pm
Re natural hair. That means no perms? Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?
J, yep that I know already. We were talking about parenting styles and how I would be so scared that he’d get hurt, and my husband’s like “eh, it’s what boys do. I broke lots of bones.”
pvw, thank you. Yeah I think mixes are really neat. Technically my husband and I are both ethnic mixes. He has several different European ethnicities, and I am Han Chinese and Manchurian (Inner Mongolian).
Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!
123The Rebound GirlfriendJanuary 8, 2013 at 9:27 pm
“Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?”
Yes we do care what men we are attracted to find attractive.
But in general, with or without a man, looking or not, we women dress up because we feel better when we do and we also get attracted by the dresses or earrings or haircuts of other women and are like, “Wow, love your dress. Where did you get it?”
Regardless of blonde vs brunette, I think all the bottom three ones look better than her original. Most of the time, highlights in different tones will create “life” in hair. It strikes me that ALL the celebrities men drool over have had some colouring done to their hair.
Of course many natural hair colours are beautiful. But I think a lot of women who always go au naturel, are in reality (if they’re being honest) a bit too lazy to experiment, or don’t prioritize it.
That pink circle of the diagram looks like it was written for (or maybe by) teenage girls or…cough cough… perhaps beverly hills bimbos?… Giant sunglasses, jewelry, expensive clothes, hairspray, posing in pictures…Seriously?
Regarding make up, only mascara discreetly enhancing the eyelashes is in my view effective. The rest is pretty much superfluous if the girl is naturally pretty. A woman with a pretty face doesn’t need much make up. Fine facial bone structures, especially high cheek bones do it. Slavic women are blessed by the gods in that regard.
Besides, girls, when do you think a guy truly sees if a woman is naturally beautiful?…In the morning when she wakes up, of course.
As for the blue circle, I guess I must be some odd ball. What means Simplicity? I’m sure I’d have a very different definition than most of you here. Composure? Meaning what, that she’s not a drama queen?
-Natural hair type and colour: YES.
-Wearing his clothes??? Why?
-Knowledge of things that interest men: Well if by that it’s meant that she’s gonna interest me by informing me on the final score of the latest FC Barcelona/Paris St Germain match, or detailing me the technical specifications of the latest BMW, chances are I’ll be bored to death, as I have an interest in football or cars pretty close to null. However, if she talks to me about, say, Italian renaissance, a Kaurismaki film or short stories by Stefan Zweig, it is more than likely that we will have long discussions together
-Being leisurely, casual: Like what, walking around the flat in pyjamas and flip flops? Pas vraiment.
-Things their guy friends say looks good: Hum hum, I can make up my own mind by myself about what is most attractive to me. Guys concerned about their buddies’ opinions in that regard must be either insecure or really vain.
As for the Rebound girl comment, I agree and always observed that. Girls choose what they like to wear and what style suits them best according to their own taste and what they feel most comfortable with in the first place.
I have to admit that even I liked Lina Wertmueller’s “Swept Away.” Like you, I wouldn’t want to live it, but the notion of being “swept away” by a grand passion in a beautiful setting is very exciting to most women.
Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.
Errm no. The male POV was split both ways. The naturally restricted among us tended to prefer no makeup (or at least so little makeup that it isn’t noticeable), while the naturally unrestricted needed makeup for those boners.
Marellus, I think you meant to ask me the question. The fourth density is the density of love, which corresponds with the fourth chakra, the heart. I link it to some scientific theories.
Andrew at Rules Revisited did some work quantifying what he thinks is most important about women’s appearance. His post is here:
Female Beauty is Highly Controllable
Interesting chart here. Makeup is only 5%.
This is a great chart. Every girl should see it. Weight and fitness, posture, and to some extent hip-to-waist ratio are things that women can control to become healthy and better looking at the same time. Additionally, hairstyle can go a long way.
“Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!”
Wow, I’m not the only one.
@Susan
“an I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)”
Two things,
1. I agree, also biased.
2. There is a basis in biology (genetics) for this observation. I’ll look for the paper(s) in the morning.
“Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”
Oh yes yes yes. One of the most attractive women I know is in her late 50s, long grey hair that’s been salt and pepper since I’ve known her. But she’s quite thin and fashionable and feminine – it wouldn’t work if she was fat, had short hair, and was wearing a reindeer sweatshirt.
“And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often.”
This is ‘Sex and the City’ in a nutshell. The show was created by Darren Star, who is homosexual, and for the most part functioned as a gay lifestyle how-to for the single urban gal. Needless to say, it was highly destructive to the many young women who took it to heart.
“Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”
Apparently. Good friend of mine has a wife in her 30s who’s gone grey early, and he hates that she dyes it. I started going grey at a young age, as well, and didn’t notice until I stopped highlighting. My husband says he really likes it. Again, another one of those surprising things.
Yes, I lived in Southie for a year and then in Cambridge for several more while doing my PhD. There were lots of great first, or later, date ideas there like the Public Gardens, Finale for chocolate mousse cake, Burdick for hot chocolate, walking along the Charles River, Jamaica Pond or the cliffs and coves at Nahant, and more. Hmmm, kind of miss there.
>> “I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!”
Back in my undergrad days, I was rejected by a guy who later dated a loud short-haired anarchist chick who swears a lot. You could be the most feminine person in the world, but there will always be outliers…
@HanSolo preferring the dark haired Latina look? You live out in the Rockies/Great Plains? Is that look common out there? I imagine it is more common in the Boston/Cambridge area–Latinas of various backgrounds and nationalities, including language, ie., Spanish speaking, Portuguese speaking.
I don’t think feistiness needs to be a phony kind of conflict. That sounds more like brattiness or entitlement. I’m talking about the natural chemistry in some couples where there is some banter, some push pull and ultimately, female surrender. The dynamic is usually one where a male is “taming” a smart, independent woman. Think Hepburn and Tracy. Or Kate and Pettruchio.
I’m going to agree with you re Candace Swanepoel’s hair. It does look better, IMO, with highlights, and even in the final brunette pic. There’s a shade of dark blonde/light brown hair that is just not that attractive. However, I acknowledge that men might not care at all. I’m a woman with some experience doing stuff to my hair, so I can appreciate the differences.
Also, despite the preferences of some guys here for long brown hair, research shows that blonde hair and blue eyes is the most popular combination among males. It’s not just coincidence that nearly all hair coloring is either going blonde(r) or covering up gray.
Besides, girls, when do you think a guy truly sees if a woman is naturally beautiful?…In the morning when she wakes up, of course.
This is the real kicker for a woman whose guy doesn’t like her au naturel. It’s one thing to feel like you have to “put on your face” for strangers. But for your mate?
The male POV was split both ways. The naturally restricted among us tended to prefer no makeup (or at least so little makeup that it isn’t noticeable), while the naturally unrestricted needed makeup for those boners.
You’re right. You, Escoffier for sure, and maybe Cooper (?) pretty much agreed with the women. What I meant to suggest was that the debate was between the no makeup and pro makeup factions, and only males were pro makeup, which I found surprising and interesting.
Interesting article, thanks for the link. I know there have been studies where beauty pageant winners from all over the world all lose out to the composite face created by mixing all their photos.
I’m pro-makeup!!!! I think I might be the only one out of the girls though. That Haley’s Halo is a perfect summary of my opinions on the matter. I have no problem with my bf seeing me without makeup, but I wear it regularly because it *does* make me look nicer. (Otherwise, why would I bother?)
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Amusing but I think the intersection of these sets is, in reality, much larger. Most people, when being honest with themselves, understand the overwhelming majority of what the opposite sex finds attractive. The rest of it is obsessing over marginal issues. I also think I disagree with most of the things on the “what men find attractive side”.
I think women do know what men like. Its just that they refuse to go there.
Yeah, I’d include “fellatio obsession” in that middle category.
I’ve never understood why women “wearing a guy’s things” is considered attractive. They hide a woman’s waist. I feel sorry for the women who work at places like the DMV and have to wear a man’s uniform. They are so ill-fitting: too big in the waist, too small in the hips and butt and the belts are too big. They’ve got to be uncomfortable.
@Maggie
I assume they’re referring to wearing a guy’s t-shirt (and nothing else) in the morning.
I find that a bit of a cliché though. Still think great lingerie is better.
I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary.
@Anne
It’s not that she looks good in his shirt but that it shoes that she’s “his” in some way.
The lingerie of course looks better, especially if I bought it for her.
I’m not surprised, I figured there would be some disagreement. FTR, here’s what the artist wrote below the comic:
Some of you may dispute an item here or there, but otherwise I’m pretty sure this is accurate. -Ray
It seems that men vary quite a bit in their preferences.
@shows, not shoes!
@HanSolo
Yes that’s what I assumed, perhaps along with the fact that his clothes will look big on her, making her look petite/feminine and making him feel masculine?
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.
I think guys like seeing their own girls wearing their things. It’s about possession and marking territory. The best example of this is probably the 1950s uniform of wearing a guy’s letter jacket and class ring on a chain when you were “going steady.”
Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.
Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.
In general, I would say that young women wear too much makeup. A strong smoky eye during the daytime, or heavy eyeliner in an office environment is not appropriate – it’s too obviously sexual in that context. Vamping it up for seduction is fun, but it’s not for everyday wear, IMO. It also has the unfortunate effect of leaving nowhere to go. We keep upping the ante to make female appearance more sexual in every day life.
There was a time when a scrubbed face and a glimpse of stockinged ankle passed the boner test. We’ve lost all sense of subtlety.
@Anne
I know you read Rules Revisited – Andrew has a real thing for dangly earrings. I think anything that draws the eye to a fertility feature, e.g. feminine jaw, full lips, cleavage, is going to be popular with men. Jewelry does that. I suspect most men would say they couldn’t care less about a woman’s watch or bangle bracelets.
@Anne
I’m thinking back to when girls have worn mine and it really was the best if she would say something along the lines of liking wearing my shirt so that it made me feel like she was mine. It did make her seem a bit vulnerable too with the oversized shirt.
I personally love jewelry on a woman that could be described as “simple elegance.” Nothing too gaudy. So, yes, a nice silver or platinum necklace, with perhaps a sapphire pendant and matching sapphire earrings. Or gold… And a nice cleavage, accented by a necklace is well, nice. lol
I will admit I find most the things in the pink circle great when done right – expect oversized sunglasses.
Makeup definitely – when guys think a girl is wearing ‘too much makeup’, she’s just wearing the wrong kind. Also the more time you spend, the better it looks. Most likely this girl is wearing a LOT and it has taken a good hour to apply, but it still looks great (IMO):
http://primped.ninemsn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Rosie-Huntington-Whiteley1.jpg
I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.
@Anne
This is an example of earrings I do not like:
http://www.polyvore.com/beaded_chandelier_earrings/thing?id=5732319
“It seems that men vary quite a bit in their preferences.”
A good warning to those that assume men (and women) are monoliths!
I’ve seen alot of women get really upset when the subject a men not liking (too much/obvious) make-up comes up. To the point that many women seem determined to believe that men like a ton of make-up and are offended at any suggestion to the contrary
Interesting comment. My own look has always been as natural as possible and my husband seems to like that, but “Wear make-up” is common advise to women from male commenters in the ‘sphere. Additionally, two of the female bloggers most popular with ‘spherians claim to have dyed their hair “porn star blonde” at their husbands request. These are women hailed by male commenters as the “ones who really get it,” so it’s hard to know just what you guys want.
(I wonder what a genders-reversed diagram would look like)
Personally, I hate it when my wife wears my clothes. I’m afraid she might get it dirtied, but she usually doesn’t so it is my irrational fear. The best thing is we wear our own clothes. Women tend to share their clothing, yet they still complain about it whether they borrow clothing without asking, or worse, if their friends do ask, and they really don’t want to share. Thankfully, I never asked my wife for that beautiful skirt that she has. Besides, I can’t fit in them.
As for makeup, I think every woman should wear the minimum necessary makeup. I never suggest that women should wear no makeup. When I see those situations, it is obvious that many women need makeup. The difference is the amount of foundation and eye makeup. If you have bad skin, the makeup becomes more obvious.
Interesting you should say that – that exact debate came up here recently in a thread. In this case, the female POV was that minimal or even no makeup is how they feel attractive, while the male POV was that a woman without makeup doesn’t pass the boner test. I assume there is a lot of variety re male preferences.
Ha! You caught that too. You know, I’d bet there’s a correlation between the character of a relationship and the amount of make-up the man likes. It seems like the women at HUS who have strong, often more egaliterian, relationships, where there is a friendship (you, me) and/or shared spiritual thing (Hope) between the couple, keep it pretty natural I’d also guess that those women have prettier, as opposed sexier, lingerie (flowing, floral nighties vs crouchless panties and stripper heels) and wear lighter perfume if at all.
Personally, when my husband told me he liked my face without makeup, it was freeing. I know that he finds me attractive either way, and that I don’t have to be “on” or wear a mask at all times. That doesn’t mean I stop making an effort, and in fact consider different looks part of our approach to variety.
DH thinks he hates make-up and bitches if he sees me put it on. If it’s already on, he often just thinks I look a little nicer than usual. He hates dramatic make-up. If I’m dressed to the nines, I’ll wear a berry-colored lipstick. It’s way too obvious for him.
@Han
Fun earrings. A bit young for me, but I liked that sort of thing when I was younger.
@Anne
Of course you find the stuff in the pink circle “great when done right” – you’re a girl.
I have to admit, most of the stuff in the pink circle I don’t even notice. There’s a few things that may draw my eye to cleavage, as Susan mentioned about earring and necklaces, but other than that I’m not really taking note of of “pink-stuff” (if you will), and jewelry specifically.
I’d suggest girls use the same rule as only highlighting one physical feature at a time, and not over do too many things at once. For example, tons of jewelry is going to signal being high maintenance and having expensive taste, to some men. (Perhaps more so than what you’d gain from drawing his eye)
I’ve never, consciously that I can remember, ever liked a girl, over another, based on her amount of jewelry, or makeup. But I have consciously liked how one girl had, seemingly, less than another.
“Also the more time you spend, the better it looks.”
I’m not sure that’s the best rule of thumb.
@Tomato
Re: reversed diagram
I was wondering the same.
Random factoid–About 25 years ago, I read a survey of politics, sex and lingerie. Female Democrats slept in flannel nightgowns; female Republicans slept in sexier lingerie. Oddly, female Democrats had more sex with their husbands than female Republicans.
@Susan
“We’ve lost all sense of subtlety.”
In so many ways. Of course modesty is a good way to bring it back. And considering how rare the modest, subtle things are, I think many women would be pleasantly surprised how men respond to a woman who stands out – steps out – from the hyper-sexualized sheep-race of self-exposure. IMO, it shows a certain strength or confidence to go her own way and in a dull grey sea of boots-skirt-tank-scarf-handbag-huge sunglasses my eyes tend to seek out a bit of subtle style or novelty or mystery all on their own.
E.g. I recently met a woman at a holiday party – the perfect venue for overdoing it. I can’t even remember exactly what she was wearing, but I do know that there was very little skin showing – but for her neck line and just a bit of shoulder. I wanted to trace her collarbone into next year. Either I’m crazy or some of those boner tests still work just fine; they just aren’t tested often enough.
Oh, and she had on very little makeup and her only accessories (that I noticed) were little green earrings that, upon closer inspection, were actually frogs wearing berets. I got kudos for noticing them and thought they were a really cute contrast to her otherwise elegant presence. Turned out she is a Francophone. Her Dad gave them to her as a kind of joke. Sadly, she doesn’t live here and by now is back in Paris. Fingers crossed though, she’s applied to a PhD program in town.
IMO, skin is ubiquitous these days; I want to wonder, imagine. Sure, there is a time and place for something racy, but I find that more attractive when it is for me alone, not a walking billboard for sex-culture trends. In the meantime, when in doubt, let off the gas.
You mentioned the other day about women posing/faking for pictures. I can’t stand that. In fact, when looking through pictures with someone I am dating, I almost always point out the ones that may have caught them off guard or were taken without them knowing. There is just something more genuine, sweeter, about seeing someone in their natural state as opposed to some character-actor posing.
The FB, pinterest, etc. obsession has taken over and now every moment is a potential way to advertise our awesomeness. A big part of the art of being subtle, of modesty itself, is to have faith that you are more than an image and that the people who really matter – or will matter – know that too. With the loss of subtlety, we’ve also lost discovery, which is part of what makes us feel alive and I think make for stronger bonds.
@Anne
Your pic of the model looks fairly low key and natural. I think there’s a difference between using makeup to create a flawless natural look and using it to create a sexy look. In the states we have makeup companies that specialize in both. MAC Cosmetics was founded by a theater makeup artist, and the eyeshadows are extremely bright colors – the whole look is extremely dramatic and theatrical. Bobbi Brown or Laura Mercier are much more subtle – mostly neutrals and a focus on finish rather than color.
Obviously, young women can get away with much more dramatic looks. I’ve gone with a more natural look as I’ve aged.
FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).
Touche! That’s even in the pink circle – stuff that girls think looks good.
I am probably influenced by other women, and the fact that I have dated a couple of men who prefer a really sophisticated look and DO like ‘expensive clothes’ (I am beginning to realize it’s not the norm).
Susan, did you see the post on RR regarding men’s perception of women? Something about how “men have no clue why they find a woman hot”. Men have a tendency to just see a woman as “hot” and I believe that. They are not aware of all the things we do to make ourselves attractive. Which is why I am always skeptical of (straight) men giving advice on hair, makeup etc. I vary my makeup, clothes and hairdos a lot and I will check the response I get. But I believe a guy will mostly think “today she looks good” rather than being aware of the specifics. Same way they can see a woman with highlights and well-done makeup and think it is her natural hair colour and she’s makeup free.
@Tasmin
Wow, that’s interesting. It sounds like if women were to hit the reset button, men really wouldn’t object. I think it all depends too on what men are looking for. One’s makeup and dress send signals, whether we realize it or not. A man who is interested in a STR will obviously seek clues that imply sexual experience and expertise. A sexy look does that. Men more LTR oriented will probably appreciate some sense of deliberate withholding of overt sexuality. This is a controversial topic – I’ve seen male bloggers say this is nonsense, and they just appreciate a good looking woman period, the sexier the better. I’m not so sure, as most of those bloggers are unattached.
Oh, that does sound promising! I hope you will keep us posted, it sounds like the two of you had real chemistry.
I agree. In fact, I’ve seen candid photos of women that were easily 1 or 2 points higher in SMV than ones of them giving a big fake smile for the camera. I’ve noticed that modeling portfolios are almost always of women not smiling. Not sure what the significance of that is, and I know that OKCupid says women who smile directly at the camera get more messages.
A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. She has seen him three times, no sex. He told her he was really glad she’d put on the brakes, so she asked me when she should go forward. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.” I said that I thought he’d made it clear he actually appreciated waiting, that delaying sex a bit will create anticipation and an opportunity for discovery. If he’s courting her, it’s not just about sex. If she explains she does not do casual (which is true) then that’s a good filter. He’ll either be interested in something more or he won’t.
Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.
Happy new year, you lot!
If changing hair/makeup will improve a woman’s SMV, that’ll give the guy something nicer to look at and that’s better, right? (I’m scared of being too ‘simple’ because I’d feel plainer, and some simple things to me scream “boring/old lady!” But I’m not a guy.)
What generally male interests are highest priority for women to learn about?
@Anne
It’s true, most men are not really qualified to give that kind of feedback. For example, my husband will say “You look lovely tonight” but he would never say, “I’d go a bit easier on the blush, but you might add a coat of mascara.” Never. When I put on makeup, I fill in my brows. To me, the difference is very noticeable, but Mr. HUS has never once in 30 years mentioned it. It’s usually a general thumbs up kind of response.
>> “FWIW, the most attractive young women I know have been approached by men they wound up dating when they were wearing no makeup – out running, at a bus stop in the rain, etc. They suspect they were more approachable in that state, even though the guys were high SMV (in their opinion).”
I think that strategy will only work for the very hottest women. One trait that I notice in many “beta females” is a flat-out refusal to play around with their appearance (ie. makeup, nice clothes etc.) Many of them eventually end up pairing up, but I think it’s DESPITE (rather than because of) the lack of effort they put into their appearance.
@Anne, with respect to jewelry I would say that if most of us like it, we don’t know it. You could probably set up some kind of blinded experiment and show whether we react better with or without it. I suspect it would have little effect.
With respect to the idea that men like different things, of course that is true. But, stating that men find natural hair color and texture attractive is absurd. This guy is implying that no man prefers straight over curly, or blond over brown? I guess the reason is that if a guy likes blondes, he prefers it be real. That isn’t the same thing as finding the natural brunette more attractive than the dyed blonde. That strikes me as something we would like to think about ourselves, but is rarely true.
@Susan
“Too often women make the mistake of thinking that they can control the outcome. Look slutty up front, then announce you’re not that kind of girl. Well, that won’t work because your messages are incongruent. I think women need to realize they are sending strong cues from the first glimpse.”
Yes! incongruence is a killer. This has happened to me more than once. It is frustrating because once that initial image takes hold it is really hard to put that cat back in the bag. And its worse when it is more than just the visual image, when they use language and stories and dabble in that shock-vulgar Chelsea Handler kinda vibe that they think says sexy-powerful-independent, but for me (LTR-oriented man) says: run.
Your point about how all of this is also about what type of man, situation you wish to attract is spot on. Women can filter in more ways than they realize, but more importantly they need to be aware of that incongruence, if it is indeed the case. I know it must be tricky, to be sexy but in the “right” ways relative to what you are seeking to attract, but sometimes the right choice means limiting our options (exposure). It may not feel right at the time, but may save some heartache down the road.
Many men are indeed singularly focused: sexy/hot or not, but I’m just not wired that way. I see the slutty look and sure the boner test works, but I’m not thinking “wife” either. The challenge is that in the SMP there is a race to the bottom in terms of attraction. STR attraction is the default gateway. So we’ve got a lot of potential for cat-back-in-the-bag situations.
Maybe the younger men are more used to it and don’t have much to compare it to, but I grew up in an time where there was a lot more mystery and when looking “slutty” was a “bad” thing.
There is also the challenge of the porn culture influence. At some point young women will have to decide how far they are willing to go to compete with the unrealistic images being absorbed – and in more ways than just their appearance. Strange how all of that empowerment seems to be just lowering the bar. Aside from players, sluts, and dirty old men at the bus-stop, I don’t see who is gaining from this trend.
Well, some men like a lot of makeup and some men don’t. The solutions for gals therefore are:
1) change your behavior depending on the man in your life’s (or the man you want to be in your life’s) preferences.
2) pick one or the other based on what you want and target/attract the men who like that.
Same thing applies if you’re talking about men and facial hair. Simple!
This is pretty good, plus/minus 2-3 items. I’m sure it varies from guy to guy (for some it must be spot on and for others off by a lot more), but I think in general it’s pretty good.
@Susan 28
I agree with you that LTR oriented men value selective chastity a lot more than overt sexuality. If done right it sends a signal of “easy for me, difficult for anyone else” that is exactly what a relationship minded guy is looking for. “Easy for everyone” signals, like showing lots of skin in public, are much more effective at attracting guys who want STRs.
I really had an epiphany recently watching JennaMarbles videos.
The contrast between “hair pulled back – glasses – no make up – sports bra” and “hair done – contacts – make up applied – dress” for me was earth shattering. The first combination makes her look like a regular teen boy. The second makes her look like a mid-level porn star. (I am saying that as a good thing – just so that you know)
She also makes a great observation “Most people, who first introduced themselves to me during college daytime, later had to introduce themselves the second time when they met me again at some party – because they did not recognize me as being one and the same person! And the first thing they usually did after realizing that, was to look at my boobs and say “But where did these come from?!”"
So to finish the discussion about men and their preference in make up – it depends on a girl. To quote Jenna:
“Of course you could try going for the natural look – but admit it, you are way too ugly to pull it off. Remember kids, there is no cure for ugly, but you can turn yourself into a human optical illusion.”
“A young woman I know is being courted in a sort of old-fashioned way by a man she considers a total catch. I said, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR.””
This is pretty much where I’m at.
When you say, “Make him wait. Ride this one all the way to the DTR,” do you mean, literally, wait for him to do it?
I’m so used to putting on the breaks, as a pre-cautionary measure, that having them put on, to give me a chase, seems like such a passive-slowfade (rejection). Which is probably why I called her flaky for so long.
Is there a difference in how women dress for other women, as opposed to how women dress for men, and if so, why ?
“I’m also very pro doing something to your natural hair colour. Ask the hair dresser, get highlights in many different tones and it will almost certainly look better than the natural look.”
Ask several men about this — I think you’ll be surprised to find that most men don’t agree.
I used to highlight my hair to be much lighter than its natural dark blonde, thinking it was prettier that way. This was emphasized by my hairdresser — a homosexual — who would always say, “And now you’re beautiful again!” when he was done highlighting me each time. When I went back to my natural color, which my husband had never seen before, he surprised me by claiming he liked it much better without the highlights.
Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. It’s ironic that a lot of women believe the pressure to conform to this standard comes from the male population, when most men have a different standard that is often completely ignored.
I think the best thing to do is to pay attention to the girls that the guys you like like. Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.
@Stickwick
+10000000
A few highlights can be fine and what not but 90% of the time brunettes who try to light and go blonde or red look WAY worse.
I love latinas and it pains me to no end to see them blondening their hair. It provides no contrast with the color in their faces.
Unless you’re Shakira and then you can do whatever and you’ll still look good but I still think she looks better as a brunette:
http://www.vivashakira.com/photos/Black/28.jpg
Ahhhh, I’ve found something :
Why can this be ?
Anyway the comment on that thread which attracted a lot of censure was this one :
but this woman said the basically the same thing and got applauded :
And this woman’s comment was utterly fascinating :
And, oh yes, the NAWALT is strong with this one :
I’ve hung out with nerdy guys for so long that I don’t even know how to talk fashion, accessories and makeup with girls.
Here’s a recent picture of me with our little boy:
http://aidanrc.shutterfly.com/pictures/170#280
I don’t often notice how “dark” I am until I see pictures of myself next to our baby! In Asian culture skin lightening is huge, and makeup is designed to lighten skin. I was called ugly because of my darker skin tone.
Susan, I look awful when I don’t smile in pictures. Maybe other women can pull it off, but not me!
HanSolo, yeah, I would look utterly ridiculous with lighter hair.
@Deli
That Jenna Marbles video is satire – you’re supposed to think she is disgusting by the end of her “makeover.” She actually does look very boyish and young with no makeup on, I think her regular look is somewhere in the middle.
@Marellus
“Why can this be ?”
Most women are “herd animals” to some extent and being accepted into the female herd is a viscerally felt need.
@Hope
Stop showing photos of cute babies! Now I want one.
@Cooper
I realize that isn’t a very clear statement, and I probably shouldn’t have used the word “ride” haha. What I meant was, she should delay having sex with this man until they have agreed to be in an exclusive relationship. I think that’s what he is going for, so her making that a condition strengthens her position as LTR material. I think he will either readily accede to exclusivity or want to take more time re commitment but be willing to delay sex.
FTR, this is not a price discrimination situation. This woman is 23, N = 3, all relationships. However, in the past she has been anxious about the timing of sex and has done the fingers crossed thing before actually having the convo. This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.
Van Morrison thinks so:
Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling
Ooh ooh-ooh wee, wild night, is calling
All the girls walk by, dressed up for each other
And the boys, do the boogie-woogie
On the corner of the street
Hope,
… that baby of yours is gonna be a heartbreaker …
@Stickwick
+1 on this whole comment.
The dollars spent on conforming to fashion mag ideals, not to mention the eating disorders and those related costs, both financial and physical, is astounding.
HanSolo, babies are cute, but they come with lots of headache, too.
Marellus, thanks. I hope he’ll not get his heart broken very much!
@Hope
What a treat, I looked thru your album twice. Aidan is such a beautiful boy and his range of facial expression had me laughing out loud. What a character!
You look beautiful in your photo, and I must point out that few women are in a position to look that good with zero makeup. You are blessed and should be thankful!
Might I also add that in pics 58 and 116 Mr. Hope also looks rather hunky.
@Hope
Thanks for the new pics. Aidan is gorgeous! He pics of him sitting up and looking around remind me a lot of my boys at that age–not the looks (obviously), but the alert and intelligent facial expressions. Aidan seems to be taking it all in.
This is such a fun age; it’s when they wake up and begin to explore and you start seeing their personalities. Soon he’ll get cranky over his lack of mobility as his ability to see exceeds his reach. Then, when he’s crawling and cruising and walking, he’ll really take off and be into everything. It’s a lot of fun. You get to re-experience everything being new as he discovers things.
Sue: “This time I urged her to put it out there and discuss it.”
Good idea. You want to phrase not as commitment or love or FB-official, but disavowing all other options. I suggest a page from my wife’s script (though admittedly it was after sex): “Are you seeing anyone else? I don’t date people who are playing the field.” If yes, give him a chance to break things off. If no, you’re good to go.
Suzan,
I know I’m searching for something
Something so undefined
That it can only be seen
By the eyes of the blind
-Billy Joel
I’d be curious to know guys’ opinions on jewelry. Isn’t wearing earrings attractive or perhaps a necklace over a nice cleavage? Suffice to say it isn’t all piled on all at once.
Anne,
I like it, but I am the type of guy who definitely prefers a certain “look”. I think guys fall into two camps here based on what I’ve seen in these comment threads over the past couple of years. My fiancee is a make-up artist and wears make-up a lot. She also is big into costume jewelry, and always wears jewelry when we go out. She also always has her nails (both fingers and toes) done and has nail appointments every other week. I very much like the “totality” of that “look”….hair done, makeup on, jewelry, nails. In contrast, I’ve noted some guys here seem to strongly prefer the “natural” look which honestly to me just seems plain or bland. They probably like long hair on a girl, but other than that no makeup, no jewelry, no manicured or pedicured nails is their preference. I’m the analytical type, and I think there are some clear patterns that repeat in terms of what types of guys prefer what. So I think a lot depends on what type of guy you want to attract in terms of a more “made-up, decorative” appearance such as using jewelry versus a more minimalist look.
Susan, thanks. My husband is quite hunky, and yes our boy makes some hilarious faces.
About makeup, I have seen lots of women in my life with and without makeup, and I personally think they all look better without. I am not a man of course, but the idea that “most women” who are in shape and healthy can’t look good sans makeup seems off to me.
J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).
I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.
Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.
Like this or like this.
Big earrings seems to go with lovely short hair it seems.
I wouldn’t worry about the eye contact thing just yet – it’s just too early for that. I distinctly recall my oldest doing that for a while and he’s not even close to being alspie. Of the kids that I do know on the spectrum (my middle son is mild aspie, my godson is strong, but neither are disabled) it becomes obvious something is off very quickly, and there will be lots of correlated symptoms.
Anne @ comment 27,
Sounds like you already have a really good handle on customizing your look and figuring out how various males respond. There may actually be a corollary here to the advice often given to men. Observe what women do, not what they say. The parallel might be ignore what men say about makeup and dress, and observe which of your “looks” garner the most interest.
Couple of things. There could be a difference between interest and approachability that explains some of the previous comments. The fact is most men don’t have the cajones to cold approach. Approaching is intimidating. So take a natural 7-8 who is a dolled up 8-9 and even though she looks great, she may be unapproachable for the vast majority of men whereas she may be more approachable when she is sweaty from her jog. The other things is most men don’t know diddly squat about make-up which you have correctly pointed out. I’m in a pretty unique position with my SO being a professional make-up artist so I understand the difference between several different looks. I think when many men say they don’t like a “made-up” look what they are really saying is they don’t like the caked on looks with tons and tons of makeup applied horribly wrong with bad colors. In some ways, make-up done well is like a guy running masterfullly tight Game. You are oblivious to it.
@Susan
” think guys like seeing their own girls wearing their things. It’s about possession and marking territory.”
+1
Also, a slim fit dress shirt tends to hug a woman’s ass snugly but still loose enough to be attractive, beautiful.
Also,
+1 to the non-dyed hair.
@HanSolo
In my little universe there is nothing, but nothing, that is quite as intoxicating as long dark hair.
On jewellery
Simple necklace + studs (not sure what else to call them but hanging Christmas tree decorations off your ears is an not attractive unless your dumbo and need a perceived size reduction)
On makeup,
Depends upon the situation. Personally I prefer a light touch of I think its called touch up and thats it. Maybe some pale lipstick if we’re going out.
On the other hand sometimes its nice to have a woman who knows how to slut it up a bit. Variety and all that.
On lingerie.
My wife tried to surprise me recently with a according to her peach, not a colour but whatever set (personally I think it was the same colour as cooked salmon). Not so good.
Black, pink, red, teal-blueish colours. Bright.
Not peach.
Like the longish nightgowns or corsets.
Hate thongs, make me think of Larry the Cable guy.
Tight underwear that cover about 1/2-3/4 of the ass suffice.
Stockings with the little strap bit that connects to the top bit. OHH HELL YES.
@Mar 63
You sir are a man of exquisite tastes.
@Stickwick
“Women and gay men dominate the fashion and beauty industries, and they set the standard for what’s supposed to be appealing. The problem is, neither are really in touch with what the typical straight man finds appealing in a woman. ”
+1 for me too.
And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often. I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well. And it never seems to occur to women that gay men typically have an entirely different drive, set of priorities, and view of intimacy and relationships.
In all of these cases the women have also failed to see that ironically the gay men they seek counsel from are in a perpetual state of juggling “relationships” and other behaviors and perspectives that would be a massive turnoff if a straight man operated that same way. They just think “hey you like penis, you must know what makes men tick, gets them off” and run with it. You don’t see guys cornering lesbian women for tips and trade secrets.
Friends are important sounding boards regardless of orientation, but there is a cultural undercurrent that seems to be very similar to how the fashion-beauty market has been co-opted.
Very few are into the Snookie look, but most will appreciate a bit of effort.
Right…that is what I was referring to above. The Snookie/Jersey Shore/”Guidette” look is that caked on overdone look. Re Snookie, my fiancee actually dressed as Snookie for Halloween. It was a riot…but I joked don’t ever look like that in real day to day life. Maybe later when I’m on the home PC I’ll post the pic.
@OTC
Oh, that’s a good call. Will pass that along.
@Lokland #65
Hat tip to you sir.
Also:
Anyone can afford good posture and an open and friendly smile…
… but alas, 21st century maidens avoid these because then they would get hit on too much…
@Marellus
I love long, dark hair too. Nice example.
This is my favorite girlfriend I’ve ever had, especially for personality but I loved her looks to:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/293661_10151443407990579_1566381357_n.jpg
I’ll remove the photo shortly so take a look.
LOL! I never thought of this, but it’s so true. I don’t think anyone goes to lesbians for sex advice.
OffTheCuff, thanks for the info. When would you say the correlated symptoms start showing up, and what are they?
Mike C, I think it’s a spectrum of male preferences. For Thanksgiving and Christmas we see the family, and some female relatives wore makeup, which was tastefully applied and not “Snookie” at all. But my husband still pointed it out as “too much makeup.” He is very firmly in the natural camp.
I found Anne’s example to be FAR too much makeup, and far too clumsily-applied; she looks like she’s made of resin.
Point blank: pink circle stuff is things that women do for themselves. Which isn’t to say that there’s anything wrong with any of it — but if I were to make a list of things that guys did for themselves, and expected that women would find it awesomely attractive, people would rightfully accuse me of being distinctly narcissistic.
@ Tasmin
“I don’t know why so many women think that gay men have the sex/relationship market cornered as well”
There are quite a few American tv shows in Europe which glorify gay men. They don’t just know fashion better, they know everything better. Whether it’d be food, culture, what women are meant to look like (no breasts or hips) or even politics (apparently they know unborn children better than straight people). They know women’s sexual desires better and have the recipe for successful dating. They have a better sense of humour too. Despite being so ‘strong’ in every way, they are still feeble enough not to be argued with or criticized.
A bit of a rant, but many of the issues which are debated on HUS (and are especially problematic in the US) has to do with gay culture being forced on women. I do think gay men are strong enough to take the debate, it doesn’t make the rest of us homophobes.
Yes
@Hope,
Thumbs-up! The little man’s looking good there!
HanSolo,
She looks like a wonderful woman; what went wrong ?
J, I am definitely seeing signs of intelligence in him. He’s babbling, cooing and smiling, and sometimes makes “heh, heh” and squealing noises like proto-laughter (which is absolutely adorable).
That is so cool. I loved all that when my guys were little.
I was starting to worry about autism and all that, since he seldom looks at me when I’m holding him. But he has great head control at 4 months, can sit and stand for quite a while with assistance, and is meeting social milestones. So I think I’m overworrying.
If he’s meeting social milestones, I wouldn’t worry. He looks like he is developing very well from the pics. Also, I notice that boy babies really like to look around a lot and check out the environment. I used to hold the boys looking towards me, and DH would hold them looking outward and away from him. I think that’s something of an innate male preference.
Also, babies don’t seem to notice that you and they are separate individuals until about 6 months. That’s when they start to really be social.
@HanSolo
She’s lovely, any chance of getting back together?
Han Solo,
Contextually-independent, I’d tend towards natural, with makeup being used for specific purposes rather than being a beauty panacea.
Now, if you’re working under Klieg lights… context counts.
Sue, what makes it not threatening is that it’s stated in the form of a clear boundary, not a demand (“do X”) or some meaningless label (“am I your girlfriend?”).
Hope, it was well before two. My godson had strong sensory issues from day one. My son was the most easy-going baby, but then just changed on a dime one day when he was a toddler. Now, my wife was really on top of things because she is K12 trained and deals with lots of kids, so we got an early diagnosis – but my godson’s mother waited quite a bit longer as she was constantly told “oh, he’ll grow out of it” and suffered quite a bit with problems at preschool.
It was kind of a crazy-fast relationship where we had a couple months together and I moved 1800 miles away and she moved to Africa. She said up front that she was moving away and didn’t do distance very well unless she was highly bonded already but I was so smitten that I said it was worth trying. Also, I came on way too strong at first but somehow didn’t scare her off, then later I distanced myself emotionally and gradually she got more into me. We became very good friends and lovers and had some of the best moments of my life together. But the long-distance thing made her fall out of love/infatuation with me. As she was losing attraction for me in Africa due to our different time zones and both having lots of work, so little contact, I realized how much I really loved her underneath my anesthetized exterior layers.
Though it didn’t work out, it was totally worth the attempt.
@Anne
This is a real pet peeve of mine. It definitely goes straight to what gay males have dictated. The result is a dramatic masculinization over time in beauty ideals. My favorite example is to trash Giselle Bundchen for this. She has no (natural) breasts and her WHR is about .9. I think you would really like this site, btw.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/sexy-fashion-models
Apparently, makeup makes a big difference in the workplace.
Up the Career Ladder, Lipstick in Hand
The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.
@Susan
No chance. She has a bf who she thinks is the one and they live together.
I did see her a year after we’d broken up and there was still an incredible friendship and conversation chemistry but she had started dating the other guy by then and to me it was just too painful to realize how awesome she was and be in her presence so I dialed back the contact a lot. But we still write a note every 6 mo. or so just to say hi.
Andrew at Rules Revisited did some work quantifying what he thinks is most important about women’s appearance. His post is here:
Female Beauty is Highly Controllable
Interesting chart here. Makeup is only 5%.
@Russ
I agree, I like a natural look and make-up, when done well, isn’t noticed much or at all.
@Han
Pretty girl!
@HanSolo
There will be someone else, and when it’s not so much work and so anxiety producing, you’ll know she’s the one. It sounds trite, but when it works, it really works, it’s easy. The people I know who married after ups and downs, breakups and getting back together, generally have rather tumultuous marriages, though they did last.
@J
I agree! lol
I met her on POF. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten so excited reading someone’s profile as hers. It was definitely strong infatuation at first read (I think she only had one blurry picture so it wasn’t even so much on looks though I could tell she was at least cute) and she turned out to be as cool and genuine in person as she portrayed herself in her profile. Hers was the total opposite of the bitchy, too-masculine, ball-busting stereotypical profile that many women put up.
HanSolo,
She could seduce you, using only her words … what a remarkable woman … what a truly remarkable woman.
Hansolo,
Do remember any specifics about what was in the profile? I’m really curious.
pic #107 is really great
@Marellus
This is the whole thing that F’s me up is that with the handful of girls that I ever fell strongly in love with over time I could feel an almost instant attraction to who they were inside, as if through their body language, eyes, and lack of the 1000-cock stare I could tell that they had the kind of personality and character that I liked. I don’t know if women can understand this but I can usually get a good read on whether a woman fits my personality type just by observing her quickly. Not sure how many other men are like this but in those cases where I later grew to love the woman there was a definite huge ability to perceive her character almost immediately. These girls I have in mind were also pretty and so I was physically attracted but ironically enough I didn’t really lust after them at all at first because the other things I look for were there and so it was a much more in-love as opposed to in-lust feeling.
In practical terms though, assuming that I can discern quickly, then it means I just have to really keep the spillways shut and feign a certain level of indifference and intellectually choose to be more skeptical and think up every possible flaw or doubt so as to not like her as much or show it, until she catches up.
But with this girl, there was huge conversation chemistry on our first date, at Border Cafe in Harvard Square. Hmmm, fond memories.
@Emily
I don’t remember a lot of specifics but she just had a real positive zest for life and came across as low-maintenance, happy, and grateful, someone who liked to explore the world and cared about people.
I think that if a woman is looking for a good guy then she needs to develop that side of her and advertise it, not the bitchy, entitled, stuck-up and ball-busting attitudes so often seen on online profiles and in real life.
J, wow that is right on! My husband definitely likes to hold him facing outwards, and I usually hold him facing me. Fascinating that gender differences come out so strongly in parenting.
OffTheCuff, thanks again.
@HanSolo
WHAT? Did I know that you lived in Boston? I need a bio!
HanSolo, my husband is an NF and exactly the same way. He has a very good “read” on people. He recognized that we were on the same “wavelength” immediately.
He didn’t feign “indifference” with me, but he was cautious. Meanwhile, I was like “what’s caution?” and bought him a plane ticket to see me after just a week or two of talking to him.
Incidentally, a girl I know from school days just got engaged. She is much as you described, happy, positive, loves to explore and cares about people. She has over a thousand friends on Facebook, but she’s not some type of social media queen. She just radiates LOVE and is genuinely nice, and I couldn’t help but love her. Undoubtedly others love her, too. She’s done lots of volunteering, is brilliant, talented, kind, and does tons of outdoorsy stuff like mountain climbing (which she and her fiance do together).
In esoteric spiritual terms, she has a strong 4th density aura. I’d be jealous of her if I didn’t admire her so much. What’s cool is that her fiance is in grad school for applied mathematics, the same field in which my husband got his graduate degree.
@Hope
Just wait till you take Aidan to the park, and he climbs the monkey bars. I promise that your husband will urge him to climb higher. and you’ll tell him to be careful.
@Hope
I am an INF(J/P*). Interesting to hear that about your husband. You also seem like someone who was in a position, or inherently able, to see his value faster than many women who like to take their time. Whatever, you want to call it, I have to hold back my interest and calibrate against the woman’s, especially if it’s one I can discern is a good match.
The description of that girl sounds very close to her. Hopefully, someday, I’ll find someone similar.
*my value was nearly neutral but slight J but as I talked with a guy who knew a lot about it he thought I was more P
<i.The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.
Yes. If you are wearing professional clothes, you need to have the polish that make-up gives.
Giant Sunglasses were born from starlets who were trying so, so hard to avoid the camera of Paparazzo.
The herd then wanted in on the action.
@J:
<i.The more makeup the more competent the woman was judged.
Yes. If you are wearing professional clothes, you need to have the polish that make-up gives.
Me: Hell yes. My daytime work look most closely resembles the last one on the right; my casual running around town most closely resembles the minimalist look of lip gloss.
@Hope: Back on topic, my husband and I saw a waitress at a Japanese restaurant with very Asiatic features, light blond hair and light brown eyes. We tried to figure out if she had dyed her hair, but she looked like she had no makeup on, and the coloring was natural as she had blond eyelashes eyebrows. It looked really cool. Plus not very many blondes go out without trying to increase “contrast” via eyeshadow, mascara and other makeup.
Me: She could have been bi-racial (Asian/Euro), like Aidan! He looks very cute, by the way!
J,
will you kindly tell me what a fourth density aura is ? I know that there are people who can see auras, and that their colors tell a lot about them, like :
Red – person is a criminal.
Green – person is unhappy.
Yellow – person is very sick.
Blue – knowledge seekers.
White with dark edges – person is about to die.
Any help is appreciated.
Sincerely.
Marellus
@HanSolo.
I cosign that feeling-perception-thingy for other people.
I am an INFJ as well.
I have taken a look at this Venn diagram, and have a couple personal quibbles I will share.
Wearing a guy’s things:
I suppose it can be cute, but only if she’s already cute. This is not make-or-break at all. Really, I would think that I mark her as my own with my penis (and associated biological material), not my t-shirt.
Knowledge of things that interest men:
A little is nice, but my tastes seem to run counter to a lot of what I hear. I recall some line about how the ultimate girlfriend would say something like, “We should move up our tee time so that we’ll be home in time for kickoff.” Er, no, I don’t need this. I would be perfectly happy for my woman to have her own interests, preferably in which she excels. I’m sure I could really enjoy doing my type of activities with her sometimes, but I would really like her to do her own, maybe more feminine, things. When I ask about her day or the things she does, I’d like it to be a bit interesting and novel.
I would be concerned about a girl who wanted to drink beer and yell at the TV every game day.
Hair type/color comments:
I don’t know. I have a huge thing for Marilyn Monroe. What’s wrong with a little excitement? Do dye and a curling iron somehow indicate high-maintenance, diva headaches? I would want a girl who’s lively and exciting, and who is special and knows it. None of this automatically makes her distastefully conceited.
All of this simple. leisurely, composed, casual business sounds a little too lobotomized for my tastes. Having said that I have a hunch I’m not the average guy.
PS on the hair business:
I’ve started to wonder if my favorite hairstyle on a woman is semi-short like Marilyn’s. I’m trying to understand why this might be. To me such a hairstyle is maybe a way of saying ‘I’m feisty and a little edgy, and I won’t roll over just because you say so,’ which I think I find fairly attractive. (I don’t like it really short like Halle Berry.) I like ‘em submissive, but only in the sense that they put up a fight only to be dominated. Longer hair somehow indicates docility to the point of boredom to me.
Could be a pile of BS on my part though. It’s all conjecture.
Anyway, happy new year to you all.
The pink circle has nothing to do with what women think men find attractive. Its all about what women find attractive for themselves, and also what they think other women find attractive.
It was Jackie O, wasn’t it?
Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)
In the Sixties, when I was in college, modesty and fashion combined to hint at what might be available, should a guy play his cards right. And in those days, it was a lot of cards. A lot of cards.
That allowed women to do the display thing while simultaneously being just fine for class or work. Makeup varied.
In fact, even parties didn’t see much difference. More formal, maybe, more dress-up, but still a fair amount of fabric.
@Jesse
I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!
In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.
Every time we talk about this issue I am reminded of the movie Swept Away (the original, by Lina Wertmuller). It’s a fascinating look at dominance and submission, and I find it very sexy. I wouldn’t want to live it, but watching it was really a turn on. I highly recommend the film.
I started looking through that pink circle downwards from the top and when the first items were about makeup and hair care, I got the sense that this was going to be a male equivalent of the numerous blurbs on conventionally accepted but (usually) incorrect female attraction triggers.
I mean the ‘Oh no, I’m not attracted to assertiveness in men. He needs to be respectful most of all.’ lines, you know the drill.
‘Oh no, I don’t like it when girls are all made up, it’s more important what’s inside’
Not to discount that naturally you’d do well to have some substance behind the pretty impression too, but well-applied and discreet routine makeup does in fact improve the lizard-brain level attractiveness noticeably. Not night-and-day, but enough to make it count. And since women tend to apply makeup daily, I guess you do understand this instinctively on some level, a bit like we men instinctively act a bit cocky and cheeky around girls. Aunt Haley had a post about this same area a few months ago:
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/what-women-mean-by-makeup-vs-what-men-mean-by-makeup/
The rest of the pink circle makes more sense (what is it with those damn bug-eye sunglasses?).
Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?
That’s the sweet spot. I wonder if I might convince some women to try going the modest route for a period of time, say a month, and report back on whether they were perceived differently by males.
@Susan: Can I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)
Me: Feel free–you have much to look forward to! I’m glad to hear all is well in that regard. I tend to gush on the types at my end, black mom/white dad, all sorts of fantastic mixes, complexions all over the place, hair texture, color, eye color….Very exotic and striking….You never know what you will get!
“In particular, I think it’s interesting that you like a little fight (which you win) with your women. Some men like very docile women, others like them a bit feisty.”
Sounds kind of scripted. I expect a fight, which I expect to win. Might as well phone it in. If I were in that situation, I’d be really annoyed at having to play a phony role in response to…a phony role.
As I mentioned many threads back, and Ted D. agreed, there are a lot of things I don’t care about. Like restaurants, which apparently are really, really important to women, or stand in for a lot of other things. So if I’m going to get all assertive and dominant and all that crap, and put my foot down about where we’re going, I have to insist on something I chose by throwing a dart at the Yellow Pages over my shoulder.
How about a woman who’s grown up enough not to need that fake crap? If she needs macho, she can see me eyeball off a couple of guys approaching our DIL. ‘course there’s the fact that recent retinal surgery gives me a massive shiner and a sullen, expressionless face. Actually, the latter is mine own. They didn’t actually wet themselves, but it was kind of funny.
Susan,
The way I see it, if I want to exercise some force I need something to push against. There are women out there who would just love to fight their hardest and ultimately be conquered. To them it’s not phony at all. If they don’t push then how do they know they’re not actually dating a wuss? It’s serious(ly erotic) to them.
I’m mostly talking about sex and related physical things, if people think I’m talking about arguing about when to walk the dog or something.
I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her.
That’s why there’s a slight whiff of manly(?) rationalization about this graph. Yes, keeping your natural hair type is nice, if it’s something I already like. Yes, wearing my T-shirts is endearing, but only if you’re already mine. Of course, if we’ve ended up together, chances are that I did like your natural hair type and color (can’t ever remember having a preference for the latter, though) so listing it here is like a… what? A self-proving argument?
Apart from the natural hair points (which are likely negligible), I’m pretty certain that none of the things in the blue circle are turnoffs for any men apart from some serious outliers. And some them may actually be really good selling points for some particular man. I’ve been seduced once over a few weeks of online chat about mutual interests that got deeper into more personal stuff over time. I wasn’t interested at first but she ‘won me over’ over those weeks and we were together for half a year until our long-term plans turned out to be too mismatched. Anyway, the point was that I can point out a case where ‘Knowledge of things that interest men’ was a definite factor in developing attraction, but then again, I’m a pretty cerebral man.
“I think Jesse is actually on to something. The common complaint among men regarding seduction/relationship advice from women is that the things they claim to prefer only apply to men who they’re already attracted to. That baseline is always an implicitly assumed. The same danger applies the other way around, too. “Oh, it would be nice if she read a few books a year”. Yes, it would be nice, but unless she passes the (mostly looks-based) threshold for attraction, reading all the books in the world isn’t going to help her. ”
How is this a “complaint”? Of course there’s an assumption of a baseline f physical attraction. Why wouldn’t there be?
Re natural hair. That means no perms? Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?
J, yep that I know already. We were talking about parenting styles and how I would be so scared that he’d get hurt, and my husband’s like “eh, it’s what boys do. I broke lots of bones.”
pvw, thank you.
Yeah I think mixes are really neat. Technically my husband and I are both ethnic mixes. He has several different European ethnicities, and I am Han Chinese and Manchurian (Inner Mongolian).
Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!
“Are you saying that women do not care what men find attractive? Or if they do, what are those things?”
Yes we do care what men we are attracted to find attractive.
But in general, with or without a man, looking or not, we women dress up because we feel better when we do and we also get attracted by the dresses or earrings or haircuts of other women and are like, “Wow, love your dress. Where did you get it?”
I definitely think most women look best when they’ve done something to their hair.
Candice Swanepoel. natural hair colour:
http://www.top100lists.ca/images/candice_swanepoel_dark_hair.jpg
Highlights:
http://www.coolwallpapers.org/photo/52774/candice_Swanepoel_wallpapers.jpg
Full on blonde:
http://www.glamour.com/beauty/blogs/girls-in-the-beauty-department/2011/07/21/0721-victorias-secret-Candice-Swanepoel_gb.jpg
Chocolate brown w/different tones:
http://urbanediary.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/000000122470-candice_swanepoel-fit.jpg
Regardless of blonde vs brunette, I think all the bottom three ones look better than her original. Most of the time, highlights in different tones will create “life” in hair. It strikes me that ALL the celebrities men drool over have had some colouring done to their hair.
Of course many natural hair colours are beautiful. But I think a lot of women who always go au naturel, are in reality (if they’re being honest) a bit too lazy to experiment, or don’t prioritize it.
That pink circle of the diagram looks like it was written for (or maybe by) teenage girls or…cough cough… perhaps beverly hills bimbos?… Giant sunglasses, jewelry, expensive clothes, hairspray, posing in pictures…Seriously?
Regarding make up, only mascara discreetly enhancing the eyelashes is in my view effective. The rest is pretty much superfluous if the girl is naturally pretty. A woman with a pretty face doesn’t need much make up. Fine facial bone structures, especially high cheek bones do it. Slavic women are blessed by the gods in that regard.
Besides, girls, when do you think a guy truly sees if a woman is naturally beautiful?…In the morning when she wakes up, of course.
As for the blue circle, I guess I must be some odd ball. What means Simplicity? I’m sure I’d have a very different definition than most of you here. Composure? Meaning what, that she’s not a drama queen?
-Natural hair type and colour: YES.
-Wearing his clothes??? Why?
-Knowledge of things that interest men: Well if by that it’s meant that she’s gonna interest me by informing me on the final score of the latest FC Barcelona/Paris St Germain match, or detailing me the technical specifications of the latest BMW, chances are I’ll be bored to death, as I have an interest in football or cars pretty close to null. However, if she talks to me about, say, Italian renaissance, a Kaurismaki film or short stories by Stefan Zweig, it is more than likely that we will have long discussions together
-Being leisurely, casual: Like what, walking around the flat in pyjamas and flip flops? Pas vraiment.
-Things their guy friends say looks good: Hum hum, I can make up my own mind by myself about what is most attractive to me. Guys concerned about their buddies’ opinions in that regard must be either insecure or really vain.
As for the Rebound girl comment, I agree and always observed that. Girls choose what they like to wear and what style suits them best according to their own taste and what they feel most comfortable with in the first place.
J, will you kindly tell me what a fourth density aura is ?
Me? I have no idea.
@Richard Aubrey
“Like restaurants, which apparently are really, really important to women”…
Haha, yes it does indeed seem that restaurants have a universal magnetical power on women.
@SW
I have to admit that even I liked Lina Wertmueller’s “Swept Away.” Like you, I wouldn’t want to live it, but the notion of being “swept away” by a grand passion in a beautiful setting is very exciting to most women.
her- lounging around in panties and one of my button-down shirts or t-shirt.
i can’t tell you how many of my t-shirts i notice “went missing” after me and girl quit seeing each other. damn you ladies. lol.
@ Susan
Errm no. The male POV was split both ways. The naturally restricted among us tended to prefer no makeup (or at least so little makeup that it isn’t noticeable), while the naturally unrestricted needed makeup for those boners.
Marellus, I think you meant to ask me the question. The fourth density is the density of love, which corresponds with the fourth chakra, the heart. I link it to some scientific theories.
@ Susan
This is a great chart. Every girl should see it. Weight and fitness, posture, and to some extent hip-to-waist ratio are things that women can control to become healthy and better looking at the same time. Additionally, hairstyle can go a long way.
@Susan
“Susan, I have to admit that I looked at lots of babies that are mixed Asian/white to try to figure out what our boy would look like. And some older kids/adults, too!”
Wow, I’m not the only one.
@Susan
“an I just gush here for a moment about Asian/White kids? The combo is almost always a winner in terms of physical appearance. I know several families where the parents are not really very attractive at all, but every single one of the kids is drop dead gorgeous. It is a real winning combo.
(I confess I may be biased as I anticipate this in my grandchildren.)”
Two things,
1. I agree, also biased.
2. There is a basis in biology (genetics) for this observation. I’ll look for the paper(s) in the morning.
As someone who finds asian mixes particularly attractive, I found this article to be very interesting: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200512/mixed-race-pretty-face
Sue: “WHAT? Did I know that you lived in Boston? I need a bio!”
You’re drooling.
Hope: “She has over a thousand friends on Facebook, but she’s not some type of social media queen.”
This statement does not compile. Syntax error. Anyone who has that many friend is by definition such a queen.
“Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”
Oh yes yes yes. One of the most attractive women I know is in her late 50s, long grey hair that’s been salt and pepper since I’ve known her. But she’s quite thin and fashionable and feminine – it wouldn’t work if she was fat, had short hair, and was wearing a reindeer sweatshirt.
“And I’d add relationship & sex “advice” to this too. I’ve known a few women who have several gay male friends and IMO have relied upon their advice far too often.”
This is ‘Sex and the City’ in a nutshell. The show was created by Darren Star, who is homosexual, and for the most part functioned as a gay lifestyle how-to for the single urban gal. Needless to say, it was highly destructive to the many young women who took it to heart.
“Natural hair color means even if she’s half grey?”
Apparently. Good friend of mine has a wife in her 30s who’s gone grey early, and he hates that she dyes it. I started going grey at a young age, as well, and didn’t notice until I stopped highlighting. My husband says he really likes it. Again, another one of those surprising things.
@Susan
Yes, I lived in Southie for a year and then in Cambridge for several more while doing my PhD. There were lots of great first, or later, date ideas there like the Public Gardens, Finale for chocolate mousse cake, Burdick for hot chocolate, walking along the Charles River, Jamaica Pond or the cliffs and coves at Nahant, and more. Hmmm, kind of miss there.
>> “I’m so glad you shared what you like – the variety of male perspectives is fascinating!”
Back in my undergrad days, I was rejected by a guy who later dated a loud short-haired anarchist chick who swears a lot. You could be the most feminine person in the world, but there will always be outliers…
Hope,
I’m kind of curious to hear about this Aura stuff as well.
J,
Sowwy
****************************************************************
Hope,
Thanks, say some more if possible.
Re: Jewelry
I think that jewelry on woman looks just stunning, provided that woman in question wears nothing except the jewelry.
@HanSolo preferring the dark haired Latina look? You live out in the Rockies/Great Plains? Is that look common out there? I imagine it is more common in the Boston/Cambridge area–Latinas of various backgrounds and nationalities, including language, ie., Spanish speaking, Portuguese speaking.
@Richard
I don’t think feistiness needs to be a phony kind of conflict. That sounds more like brattiness or entitlement. I’m talking about the natural chemistry in some couples where there is some banter, some push pull and ultimately, female surrender. The dynamic is usually one where a male is “taming” a smart, independent woman. Think Hepburn and Tracy. Or Kate and Pettruchio.
@Anne
I’m going to agree with you re Candace Swanepoel’s hair. It does look better, IMO, with highlights, and even in the final brunette pic. There’s a shade of dark blonde/light brown hair that is just not that attractive. However, I acknowledge that men might not care at all. I’m a woman with some experience doing stuff to my hair, so I can appreciate the differences.
Also, despite the preferences of some guys here for long brown hair, research shows that blonde hair and blue eyes is the most popular combination among males. It’s not just coincidence that nearly all hair coloring is either going blonde(r) or covering up gray.
@Damien
This is the real kicker for a woman whose guy doesn’t like her au naturel. It’s one thing to feel like you have to “put on your face” for strangers. But for your mate?
You’re right. You, Escoffier for sure, and maybe Cooper (?) pretty much agreed with the women. What I meant to suggest was that the debate was between the no makeup and pro makeup factions, and only males were pro makeup, which I found surprising and interesting.
@Lokland
Is it something as simple as hybrid vigor?
Also, when is Mrs. Lokland due?
@Pixie
Interesting article, thanks for the link. I know there have been studies where beauty pageant winners from all over the world all lose out to the composite face created by mixing all their photos.
I’m pro-makeup!!!! I think I might be the only one out of the girls though. That Haley’s Halo is a perfect summary of my opinions on the matter. I have no problem with my bf seeing me without makeup, but I wear it regularly because it *does* make me look nicer. (Otherwise, why would I bother?)
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