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The Shameful Truth About Our Treatment of Boys

adhdA new study of nearly 6,000 elementary school children has found that boys are discriminated against beginning in kindergarten. Christopher Cornwell, an economics professor at the University of Georgia, says that “gender disparities in teacher grades start early and uniformly favor girls.”

Despite having higher scores on standardized tests, boys get lower grades than girls. Why? Because teachers are basing grades at least partly on classroom behavior, and the standards are very much geared to female norms.

The skill that matters the most in regards to how teachers graded their students is what we refer to as ‘approaches toward learning’. You can think of ‘approaches to learning’ as a rough measure of what a child’s attitude toward school is: It includes six items that rate:

  • the child’s attentiveness
  • task persistence
  • eagerness to learn
  • learning independence
  • flexibility
  • organization

I think that anybody who’s a parent of boys and girls can tell you that girls are more of all of that.

I’ve been extremely concerned about this trend since I noticed it personally as early as 1992. At long last this discrepancy is being acknowledged, owing to the disparity in educational achievement. Cornwell says “the disparity in educational attainment between males and females has been so widely reported in recent years that the basic facts are now well known and are driving public policy debate.” That’s a very welcome, albeit belated, development.

We extend the analysis of early-emerging gender differences in academic achievement to include both (objective) test scores and (subjective) teacher assessments…we show that the grades awarded by teachers are not aligned with test scores, with the disparities in grading exceeding those in testing outcomes and uniformly favoring girls, and that the misalignment of grades and test scores can be linked to gender differences in non-cognitive development.

…Boys in all racial categories across all subject areas are not represented in grade distributions where their test scores would predict. Even those boys who perform equally as well as girls on reading, math and science tests are nevertheless graded less favorably by their teachers.

 Here’s what the disparity looks like for kindergarten boys:

Std. Deviation Test Scores Grades
Reading -.017 -.27
Math +.02 -.15
Science +.035 -.14

(Note: Values are approx., gauged visually from study graphic.)

Another interesting finding was that boys who adhere to female norms on non-cognitive skills were not penalized. Effectively, the more female behavior was rewarded with a grade “bonus” for males. 

The implications of this are obvious. Masculinity, even normal maleness, is being punished in schools from a very young age. Only the most female-acting boys are rewarded with a fair assessment. Cornwell notes that this practice may permanently affect a boy’s educational prospects.

The trajectory at which kids move through school is often influenced by a teacher’s assessment of their performance, their grades. This affects their ability to enter into advanced classes and other kinds of academic opportunities, even post-secondary opportunities. It’s also typically the grades you earn in school that are weighted the most heavily in college admissions. So if grade disparities emerge this early on, it’s not surprising that by the time these children are ready to go to college, girls will be better positioned.

Twenty years since I first noticed this in the culture (and I’m sure it was not new then), we can see that this by-product of feminism has been very costly to young men. As I wrote three years ago:

If there is an asymmetry, and I think there is, then it needs to be corrected, or we’ll all pay. We can’t have healthy relationships if men are not thriving. Stifling creativity and inquiry while adhering to a preferred political ideology is what got us here in the first place. It’s time to level the playing field.

Christina Hoff Sommers explains why feminists have been so successful in getting their way, something she calls a structural asymmetry:

There are approximately 112 important centers for the study of women. It is an elaborate empire of . . . activism that produces volumes and volumes of research, some good, but much of it ideological. But since they are the groups addressing issues, Congress listens to them, and journalists call them when they want to write stories. If there’s any social policy practice that has a disparate impact on women, they’re right there to make it known and to correct it.

I appreciate Dr. Cornwell’s research and earnestly hope that the truth about what’s happening in schools continues to be addressed and exposed.

 

 

3 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://meistergedanken.livejournal.com meistergedanken

    Do you ever experience any cognitive dissonance when you can write articles like this on the one hand, but regularly express disdain for those “who have taken the red pill”, on the other?

  • http://meistergedanken.livejournal.com meistergedanken

    This is a pretty good effort. Actually, this would fit right in at The Spearhead. Have you thought about maybe momentarily swallowing your distaste and contributing an article there? It might raise your profile and broaden your reach. Though there are not as many comments there as here (now that the honorable Mr. Price has altered his commenting policies), the readership and people who comment are quite diverse – not merely the same 6 people posting backing and forth to each other all the time (which is fine too, as most blogs really don’t feature actual dialogue between readers).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @meistergedanken

      Actually, this would fit right in at The Spearhead. Have you thought about maybe momentarily swallowing your distaste and contributing an article there?

      There was a time when I actually tried to participate there. I was chased away with horrendous insults, including bad mother and hypergamous cheating wife by Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech and The Fifth Horseman. Never again.

  • http://eoinmacaodh.wordpress.com Eoin MacAodh

    I wonder how many years/decades this has to go on before it becomes mainstream? Hell, the wage gap is still unassailable holy writ even a near-decade after it’s been debunked.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    It’s not cognitive dissonance, it’s nuanced approach.

    Susan (and I hesitate to put words in your mouth, so this is my perception) sees some of the Red Pill dudes as overly aggressive and dismissive of her perspectives, not to mention occasionally a little rough. And while she’s exploring Red Pill concepts here at HUS, she has not subscribed to the over-all philosophy . . . and that’s okay.

    As much as I’m a Red Pill guy, the fact is that these scary concepts are difficult for folks closer to the mainstream to accept at face value without a compelling reason to do so. Susan is remarkable willing to consider a masculine perspective, something most women are not, but that does not mean she has abandoned the feminine perspective she has built for years. Her observations here are spot-on, as usual — but even when I don’t agree with her, her insights are still highly valuable.

    And nuanced, which brings me back to my point.

    “The Red Pill” is, in essence, a practical understanding of the socio-sexual mating dance we do in post-industrial society. Some folks want to mix that pill with religion, politics, economics, or whatever their favorite mixer is. And the truth is you can see the Red Pill in all of those ways, if you choose to.

    But it is not monolithic. Nor dogmatic. We aren’t feminists. The Red Pill is not an ideology, or even a philosophy, it is a personal response to the practical problem of mating and breeding in our society. Those who have “taken” it have done so for their own benefit, not to be part of a consensus or movement. Mine and Athol’s versions of the Red Pill are going to be a lot different from Frosts and Roissy and Roosh’s, by necessity. We’re different dudes, and we have different needs. Our Red Pills won’t work for you, probably, nor for most guys, because our personal experiences shape how we require the Red Pill.

    Susan hasn’t “taken the red pill”, but she’s at least considering its validity without, say, condemning us as human rights abusers or thinking men are inherently evil. Quite the contrary, she’s been an advocate and champion of Men’s Rights and the masculine perspective more than a lot of Manosphere bloggers I could mention. She might find those who do take it to be overzealous, but damn! Considering how some Red Pill dudes treat her in her own house, I can understand her reluctance.

    I prefer Susan’s nuanced approach to a blind acceptance or blanket condemnation. This post is a perfect example. She took the issue, took it apart, and evaluated it in a fairly objective way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re HUS and the Red Pill.

      I consider myself someone who has taken the Red Pill. I am in favor of Game, which I consider an amoral tool, as long as it is used ethically. I see it as potentially extremely useful to men in the same way that CBT is helpful – and it’s not very different from that approach.

      Most often I have found that men who have also taken the Red Pill find that I do not go far enough for their liking. I support gender equity, and I have stated that female sexuality, as well as male sexuality, is neither good nor bad. It has evolved to encompass certain behaviors and attraction cues, and men can benefit from understanding them. Just as women can benefit from understanding male sexuality, e.g. highly visual, predisposed to variety, etc.

      Interestingly, I have been contacted several times by men who are politically active as MRAs – in the Male Studies movement, Paul Elam, and a group fighting for the rights of divorced fathers. I was even asked to be on the board of one such organization. This is ironic, at least to me, and will no doubt surprise those who see me regularly vilified by MRA/Game bloggers and their readers.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, as someone who raised a boy and navigated his way through school, what would you say to those of us who face that today? What should we be doing/looking out for?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, as someone who raised a boy and navigated his way through school, what would you say to those of us who face that today? What should we be doing/looking out for?

      I’ll do my best to answer this – keep in mind I made many mistakes along the way, but learned from them.

      1. Raise your awareness. The first thing to do is to be aware as a parent that it’s very likely your son will encounter this culture in school. I saw some of the more obstreperous boys shamed outright, and even saw their parents shamed at evening events and the like. If it happens to your child, know that you are not alone, and take any assessment of his behavior with a grain of salt. My son’s K teacher suggested a meeting with the school shrink to discuss ADD, but when we met and she heard the description of his behavior, she expressed that it was normal male behavior and said that no intervention was warranted. We were lucky, as it is well known that ADD gets prescribed much more frequently than it probably should. Teachers want Johnny on Ritalin to make their jobs easier.

      2. Know what is normal for boys.

      Some things I’ve seen boys disciplined for include being too competitive, not being willing to “hug out” disagreements, and being too physically active at recess (!!!).

      Do everything in your power to make sure that recess and gym do not get cut in your school. Boys need that time to release physical energy.

      Trophies for participating and other dilutions of competition, e.g. Color War or Field Day where no team wins, favor girls over boys. Make sure your son knows it is ok to compete and to win. It’s ok to be the smartest kid in the class and to know it. Of course, he needs the social skills as well, so that can be gracious whether he wins or loses.

      Having boys talk through disagreements and shake hands is obviously a good thing. We certainly don’t want the schools ignoring physical altercations. On the other hand, asking them to be emotionally demonstrative is unfair.

      3. Be a tireless advocate for your son and for boys in the school.

      If you get feedback that your son behaved in some inappropriate way, and upon learning the details you feel that the teacher overreacted, challenge her assessment. Ask the principal to become involved if necessary. Once in first grade, my son hit another boy over the head with an empty plastic lunchbox. It was an inappropriate thing to do, but it weighed about 3 ounces and didn’t cause pain or injury. That boy’s family was irate and called a meeting at the school, despite the fact that my son had apologized and the boys had returned to normal that same afternoon. At the meeting, they were adamant that my son be suspended for his action. We argued against this in part by drawing on information about the way young males experience and resolve conflict.

      4. Beware the PC police – pay particular attention to accusations of bullying.

      One boy in my son’s 7th grade class regularly wore girls’ clothing, makeup and nail polish to school. He got teased. The school handled it by creating a celebration of this boy’s “difference” and suspended a boy who had called him “gay,” sharing articles about suicide among transgendered teens.

      On the other hand, because most boys are viewed as potential bullies, real bullying among boys often is minimized by authorities. For example, my son found his hockey helmet filled with mayonnaise before a big game in middle school, but the (male) coach thought it just an unfortunate reflection of male nature.

      5. Consider single sex education if available.

      In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll say that we pulled my son of out public school at third grade and sent him to an all boys’ school. He had two recesses a day, plus after-school sports. Every aspect of the curriculum was considered in light of boys’ aptitudes and interests. He returned to a coed environment for middle school, at his request, but those four years were really great.

      I think some public schools now have some single sex classes, which might be worth considering.

      Another good thing is all-boys camp in the summer. The important thing is to find organizations and institutions that celebrate boyhood. Scouts is another idea.

      Hope that helps.

  • Lokland

    For the +/- what type of grading system is being measured there?

    Letter grades, percentage or GPA? Note, I realize its for kindergarden which is why I ask how it is being marked.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      That was a controlled variable. From the study:

      NCES prepared the objective reading, math, and science assessments. Each test was
      divided into two parts. How well a child scored on the first portion of the assessment determined
      which second portion he or she would receive. Thus, scores used in this analysis are not raw
      scores, but rather item response theory (IRT) scores. Still, higher scores indicate higher levels of
      academic achievement.
      Academic achievement was also measured with subjective assessments. Teachers rated
      each student’s mastery of specific skills in reading, math, and science. NCES translated these
      assessments into “grades” by constructing a continuous 0-4 point “Academic Rating Scale”
      (ARS) scale where 0 indicates no understanding of the content or skill and 4 indicates complete
      mastery. The ARS measures the same skills as those found on the objective reading, math, and
      science assessments. Significantly for us, teachers were unaware of their students’ test scores
      when they provided their assessments for the ARS.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Warren Farrell–author of “The Myth of Male Power” and other books, has an article out wondering why all the mass shooters are guys,almost always young guys.
    This fits in with some of what he says.
    We could use more men in el ed, presuming they didn’t mind being thought of as child molesters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      We could use more men in el ed, presuming they didn’t mind being thought of as child molesters.

      The study did not specifically address the gender of the teachers, but Cornwell said it’s obvious that el ed teachers are overwhelmingly female. Undoubtedly this has a large effect.

  • Cooper

    This doesn’t surprise me. I coasted through high school on test scores.

    I had one science class that actually weighted test heavily (as they should be) and the weekly assignments were worth 15% – one assignment every week over the entire year.

    In that particular class there was a wall-spreadsheet with all our students numbers down the left side, and all the things worth marks spread across the top, with corresponding columns down (with each students mark in each cross-secting square).
    My row went: 0/0/0/0/80/0/0/0/85/0/0/0/90/0/0/0/ total: 75%

    Cause all the assignments, that split their weighting, were worth something like 0.03% each. No incentive for me.

    I’d go to class, and I’d hear people by the mark-board saying: “who is student number 138262!! They haven’t done any assignments, and they have a better mark than me!!”

    Hahaha. That class was definitely an exception! Most of my grades were mediocre, and my testing ability has always been much, much better.

    When I applied to attend a private boarding school, my parents and I could tell that they were considering me based on $$$ more than I being special. But then I took their standard aptitude test, and they were amazed.

    Also, back when I was going into Grade 2, the grade was split into two halves. One half was the mature kids that would be able to be good example for the 1st Grade half. And the other half was the kids who needed extra guidance. That half went to the Gr.3 class, and it was all the easily distracted kids, that they didn’t want distracting the gr. 1s.
    By the end of that year, I was a year ahead of the rest of my grade in math, cause I would always get distracted and start participating in the grade 3 math lessons, and it wasn’t long until the teacher allowed me to do their quizzes along with them. (Which were actually timed, and I was better than most of the grade above)

    I was always being pushed towards learning-assistance almost all through grade-school. Despite being better at testing that nearly everyone, it was cause they knew I was never trying particularly hard, and always distracted.
    All my parent teachers meets were identical all through school, lol, “he’s very smart, but he doesn’t try!” The word lazy was thrown around. a. lot.

    But it was clear to me, by even an early age, that with some teachers my knowledge of course material would be, at least the greatest contributor to, determining my mark. It was always more to do with demonstrating that you’ll be complacent in under going their menial rigmarole.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Great post Suzan.

  • Revo Luzione

    Ironwood–great comment, very insightful.

    We need a practical, pragmatic and precise definition of what the Red Pill is.

    Humbly, I offer the following: The Red Pill is: An openness and willingness to investigate, utilize, and refine, scientific and experiential models of human behavior, beginning with the primary driver of all human behavior, mating. Individual application of this “pill of understanding” will vary broadly within individuals just as the pharmacokinetics of a physical substance in a given person.

    Susan–thanks for this well-written, concise piece on the challenges facing boys in this education system.

  • King Turnip

    Lockland,
    I ran a critical eye over the report, and the numbers are in standard deviations.
    So, the boys average at the 49th percentile on reading tests, but only the 40th percentile in reading grades.
    For Math and Science it’s 51st vs 44th (albeit different ranges within those percentiles.)

  • Mike C

    Good post!

  • Richard Aubrey

    Revo.

    Even more humbly, I offer a different definition;
    The red pill is not the process of understanding. The red pill is one particular conclusion.

  • Keoni Galt

    The study did not specifically address the gender of the teachers, but Cornwell said it’s obvious that el ed teachers are overwhelmingly female.

    Here’s a distinct memory of my public school 4th grade class back in the 80′s, where I had a Male teacher: he used to ask questions of the students during his lessons. He would mark down in his grade book whether or not a student answered a question correctly, and the total score at the end of the grading period counted towards 1/4 your grade as “classroom participation.”

    I remember sitting there day after day and observing how he did this. If he asked a girl a question, and she didn’t know the answer, he’d give her hints, encouragement and even second or third chances if she gave the wrong answer.

    But when he asked the boys a question, if they hemmed and hawed or got it wrong, he’d immediately mark it down in his grade book and move on with the lesson.

    I called him on it one day in front of the whole class. He sent me to the vice principal’s office for “disrupting the classroom.”

    Gender of the teacher may actually be worse if it’s a misandrist mangina feminist, like my 4th grade teacher.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Keoni

      I called him on it one day in front of the whole class. He sent me to the vice principal’s office for “disrupting the classroom.”

      Obsidian tells similar stories of being disciplined for disagreeing with a teacher about Shakespeare, IIRC. It is particularly egregious when done by a male teacher to a boy, I agree.

      I recall helping out as a parent volunteer in my son’s 2nd grade classroom. One boy really was all over the place – and he has turned into a very interesting, artistic adult, but I digress. On this particular day, he decided to wear his sweatshirt in some wacky way – I think he pulled a sleeve over his head and threw the other sleeve over his shoulder. Of course, the kids started laughing and the teacher started yelling at him. I thought it was pretty funny, and no harm done, but she was clearly at her wits’ end with this kid. She was yelling when he suddenly stood up and announced in a huff that he had had enough of her verbal abuse and was going to the principal’s office. At which point he marched out of class. If she’d only ignored him and refocused the kids, there would have been no problem.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    Thank you!

    I am actually a certified school teacher (haven’t taught in decades) and in graduate school the discussions amongst the teachers in training were kind of alarming about how do deal with boys. At the time, I was completely infected with blue pill thinking so I went right along with the generally misandrous approach to dealing with the school-aged genders.

    Of course, there will be the sound of crickets coming from the feminist camp.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Excellent post, thank you Susan.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Great post. Matches my experience pretty closely.

  • Tasmin

    @Cooper
    “All my parent teachers meets were identical all through school, lol, “he’s very smart, but he doesn’t try!” The word lazy was thrown around. a. lot.”

    Lol. Yeah I learned to game school early on myself, though in my case I was too fearful of my parents to openly evade the work. (Any “zero” was disappointing even if the overall was an “A”). There were definite periods of “underachievement” but it just never occurred to the teachers to dig deeper into that, which is to say I was achieving highly on things that I felt mattered and sandbagging on the stuff that didn’t interest me or I found to be annoying. The diagnosis of “lazy” is correct, but it is too often directed at the wrong person.

    Being an introvert and quite sensitive as a kid meant that I was much less likely to “act out” in those boyish ways – unlike my more extroverted brother who was constantly testing the boundaries. But I was also much more prone to absorb the mind-fuck of how I was “good” for suppressing those boyish things, which of course you can’t have w/o the awareness that you have that badness inside of you. I got better marks than my brother for my ability to play along, but I think he was better off for not internalizing the message as much. He was fighting it w/o even knowing it by just being a boy and apparently not caring as much about the reinforcement from the teachers. I kept my head down when I should have been learning how to assert myself. That is an important process.

    My favorite “class” pretty much through HS was recess/PE. Not just because we got to run around, but because PE teachers tend to get the hell out of the way long enough to let kids be kids. But then I come from the end of an era: when we played dodgeball with volleyballs and played full-contact gym hockey. Bloody good times.

  • J

    An interesting post with a spot-on analysis of what classroom behaviors are rewarded, but I feel the rationale for current classroom design predates feminism and that it is sort of a historical coincidence that the present situation favors girls.

    The American public school system was created to solve two problems–keeping kids too young to work off the streets (free compulsory education and child labor laws go hand in hand) and building a skilled and compliant workforce for the factories as America became more industrialized. I doubt that rewarding girls was as much a goal as creating a group of people who had enough skills to form a basis for learning to perform skilled labor and who would respond to bells and whistles and be able to sit still enough to work on an asembly line. This does in fact disporportionally favor women and a certain sort of boy. Additionally, it wasn’t that long ago, that teachers in all male environments were allowed to use force to create that kind of boy out of the more active boy. (My husband, who attended an all-boys RC high school recalls being hit, just on general principal. The brother in question would move down the row ready to strike the open hands of his students who were required to hold their hands out in preparation for the assault. The brother would ask “Angel or devil?” Boys who replied “devil” would be hit for their evildoing; boys who said “angel” would be hit for lying.)

    Until about 1950, this situation wasn’t a problem. Boys who lacked the ability to sit in school could join the work force early or pursue some sort of technical or mechanical education where they did more active, project-based work. Unfortunately, as the world has become a complicated place, there is less of a niche for those boys (and actually a smaller number of girls) and more of a need to enforce a certain sort of environment in schools. The major change is that schools now try to produce good cubical dwellers as opposed to good assembly line workers, but in either case the situation favors those who can sit still–and this is still disporportionally girls.

    My older son’s high school experience is very much like Cooper’s. He doesn’t so homework, so he doesn’t do well. There is a huge disparity between his achievement and his IQ and standardized test scores. Teachers love him but claim they can’t reach him. In fact, the problem is they can’t make him conform. Yet, I’m confident that once he’s out of high school, doesn’t have to do daily homework and can find some professor who will give him a research project that he can sink his teeth onto, he’ll be more than fine.

    Although I do try to advocate for my son, I have not been successful. There are too many pressures on the school from employers to produce a certain kind of worker and from parents to produce kids who score high on ACTs and SATS. Not even the parents of the brightest kids are willing to look at the sort of reforms that would make school a better place for my son; there’s simply no consenus or groundswell of support. The principal of the school has assured me that he wants the school to be place where any kid who puts in effort can succeed. I have joked to him that I hope my son is long gone before that happens because if effort is doing the busy work that proves a kid “tried,” my son will never graduate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Although I do try to advocate for my son, I have not been successful.

      It’s very, very difficult. Educators are very indoctrinated in feminist thinking. Living near the Harvard School of Education hasn’t helped in our case. They’ve produced all sorts of wackos with crazy ideas about teaching kids. Just one example in my town is that they made all learning and test-taking cooperative. Suddenly math geniuses were put into math groups for assessment, forced to take home a group grade of whatever – a C. Parents started yanking their kids out of the high school in droves until that practice was abandoned.

      Another thing that was very difficult is that the world is very biased against introverted males. My son was the unfortunate combination of mischievous and introverted, lol, but later when he matured, we kept getting feedback that teachers wanted to see more leadership from him. It had nothing to do with his academics, but sure enough, his physics teacher wanted him to “lead” in the lab, and his history teachers wanted him to take more initiative to “lead” discussions. He was never one for eager class participation, and that didn’t change even in college. We shouldn’t be trying to remake everyone into female extroverts – like me, or worse, Amanda Marcotte!

  • Lokland

    @Cooper

    “That class was definitely an exception! Most of my grades were mediocre, and my testing ability has always been much, much better.”

    Lol, my high school history teacher took me out into the hall one day and told me I had to start doing work and stop relying on my (and I quote) ‘test taking ability’.

  • http://www.therulesrevisited.com Andrew

    Interesting post. It is a nice complement to the myriad of posts about how women are becoming de-feminized. We see here the other half of sexual de-polarization.

    I went to an all boys school from 7th through 12th grade and loved it. Wrestling and roughhousing was allowed, and teachers only broke up serious fights. Typically only the younger boys engaged in it though. You’d frequently see 3rd – 5th graders rolling around in the dirt or grass during recess. The campus was half wooded and students would build forts and things when they could.

    In the classroom the main difference from the mixed education I received was that teachers swore openly and threw things (markers, shoes, erasers, books, etc.) at student who continued to disrupt. Not all teachers did this, but some did. All of the teachers were men. In fact, the only women in the school were the receptionists at the front desk, and the accountant.

    Absolute respect of women was admonished at all times. Chivalry was encouraged – perhaps more than it should have been.

    But I felt like I and my classmates had a great high school experience. While people who went to public high schools often complained about it being an awkward stage in their life, I can almost guarantee that no one in my graduating class of 40 would have said this about their time there. There was no gossip, there were no cliques, and there was no drama.

    Now, that all came at a cost. When I got to college I was way behind the curve when it came to women, and that lasted through until my early twenties. But aside from a few embarrassing moments where I had to admit my “inexperience,” I benefited far more than I gained from that late start, which is one of the reasons I advocated the same for teenage women in the post I made about Female Game for Girls in their Teens.

    Interestingly, my sisters both went to an all-girls school that was set up to be the female analogue of the one I attended. Neither of them liked their experience there. Some of their classmates didn’t mind it, but others despised it (to the point of demanding that their parents remove them).

    I’d be curious to hear what other girls liked or disliked about their single-sex education experience. Perhaps my sisters’ bad taste for it had to do with the particular school.

  • Lokland

    @Cooper

    “I was always being pushed towards learning-assistance almost all through grade-school. Despite being better at testing that nearly everyone,”

    Damn you could have been me.
    I was actually placed in special ed for five years. I got a private room and a personal teacher all cause I couldn’t read at the end of grade one (which I then learned over the summer from my grandmother).

  • Lokland

    @King Turnip

    Ahh that makes sense. Thanks.

  • J

    I was chased away with horrendous insults, including bad mother and hypergamous cheating wife by Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech and The Fifth Horseman. Never again.

    Meh. It’s typical of the ‘sphere that no matter how fair and sympathetic you actually are, failure to conform to the submissive model will eventually get you ostracized. My own primary failure at some of these blogs is being the woman DH prefers vs the submissive sort that many of these guys fantasize that they would like. When the guys start scolding women actually ask their husbands to physically disciplined them, you have to know that women like you and me have nothing to contribute there. As I once said to Dalrock, “Here I’m some sort of arch-feminist, but IRL I’m known as a den mother.” And I’m certain that, as a mom of boys who was involved in my community, I’ve done when more to serve boys IRL than the average ‘spherian.

    If I were you, I’d just continue to do my own thing as opposed to trying to pander to the guys at The Spearhead. That you sometimes agree with them is proof that even a bunch of blind squirrels will occasionally find a nut, not that there is basis for common cause, IMO.

  • J

    I think he pulled a sleeve over his head and threw the other sleeve over his shoulder. Of course, the kids started laughing and the teacher started yelling at him…. If she’d only ignored him and refocused the kids, there would have been no problem.

    Unfortunately, it’s her job to keep order and that’s how HER performance is evaluated. There needs to be systemic change.

  • Cooper

    @Lokland

    Hahaha.

    You’ll appreciate this story then. (Being Canadian)

    When your in Gr.7 and receiving help, it’s the time when they decided whether or not to put you in special-Ed, or “easy”-math. (Can’t recall what they called it)
    And usually this would affect which electives one takes. And the first class they usually cut is French. (Which one needs to actually graduate, or at least that’s how it was then. And I knew this when I was 12)

    So, my school arranged a meeting for my parents to meet with the HS counsellors, when I was still in Grade 7.
    The first thing they said when we walked in and sat down, to break the ice, was: “So, Cooper, what are looking forward to next year in High School?”
    I had a quickdraw response of “FRENCH CLASS!”

    All the counsellors laughed, and one said “oh, a wisenheimer.”

    After that my parents didn’t listen to them.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    This is a great post, and it quantifies a lot of things I have personally experienced but could never explain RE: teachers favoring style in addition to substance from a gendered perspective. I came up through grade school and saw this happening to me and other boys. The most obvious example was when I sat in a parent teacher conference with a teacher telling my parents that I had “attention problems”- they said “he’s got good grades, so what is really the problem?”. This was before 1992, so I am sure what you have seen is real- boys will be boys, but you’d have been hard pressed to explain that to some of my teachers back then.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The most obvious example was when I sat in a parent teacher conference with a teacher telling my parents that I had “attention problems”- they said “he’s got good grades, so what is really the problem?”

      My husband and I attended a conference with our son’s Algebra teacher, who complained about his distractability and suggested he have a full battery of tests performed. When we asked for details, the teacher lamented that although he was acing the class, he spent the whole period looking out the window. He said, “It has to be that he is teaching himself the material as he does the homework!” I can see why that isn’t ideal, but I did not believe it should kickstart thousands of dollars worth of testing to tell us what we already knew!

  • Cooper

    @Tasmin
    “Bloody good times.”

    :D

  • JT

    @ Andrew,

    I went to an all-girl school from age 11 until I was 18. I liked it. My mother had the same education and I hope if one day I have a daughter I would be able to do the same for her.
    I definitely know that girls benefit from a single-sex education.
    I wasn’t so sure about boys.
    But from your testimony, I see that it is a good thing for boys too.

    So now I know :-)

    But here’s a caveat: Being Catholic, my school was a convent school. I personally had no problem with that (I am a an of nuns), although I know some girls in my class hated it.
    Unfortunately, I know many Catholic boys who did not have a great time of it in monk-run schools. Just anecdotes, but I wonder if there was a special ‘problem’ with monks or priests teaching boys?
    I am yet to figure out that one…

  • J

    We could use more men in el ed, presuming they didn’t mind being thought of as child molesters

    Actually, the fact that it’s a shitty job, especially now that union benefits are being eliminated, is a far bigger disincentive to men. A guy who needs to support his own family will go into the private sector instead. The same has happened with quality women teachers since other opportunities opened up. The smart woman who was the best Civics teacher in town is now a lawyer; the woman who taught you to love Biology is now a doctor. When teaching becomes a respected, well compensated profession, more men will do it.

  • Tasmin

    @J
    Great comment.
    “Yet, I’m confident that once he’s out of high school, doesn’t have to do daily homework and can find some professor who will give him a research project that he can sink his teeth onto, he’ll be more than fine.”

    This was me. HS was about enduring, surviving the machine. I barely got into college. In fact, it was my athleticism and ability to talk with adults (thanks church and boy scouts) that got me in. I got in the back door via my sport and an (apparently) impressive interview with the dean of admissions.

    My actual grades were good, not great, but by my 3rd year of college I had secured a research fellowship and had most of my tuition paid for. My good grades became just a byproduct of my ability to engage deeply into subjects of interest. I had jobs and competed in sports and had almost no “free” time – but it was all my time and I found that aspect of control-ownership to be much better for me. Granted, choosing a good fit for college is important too. I question if I would have felt the same had I gone on to a big university.

  • J

    It’s more than feminism, Susan. The parents whose quiet, well organized boys are getting into Ivies are thrilled with our local system. And that’s a lot of boys, over half of the kids who go on to high quality schools from our local high school are boys. There’s no numerical basis to prove that boys qua boys are being discriminated against. If you do the work, you succeed. The system rewards “hard work” and conforming to standards. Even male teachers call my son lazy, and even his dad is frustrated by the kid’s inability to” play the game.” Oddly, it’s female teachers regard him as this brilliant global thinker who has unlimited potential “if only I could reach him.” If my son were in an environment that rewarded pure IQ, creativity, insight, wit and the ability to tackle a project, he’d be lunching with you in Boston next year. Unfortunately, his environment rewards those who can keep a well organized folder. And plenty of boys CAN do that.

    I’l tell you one thing though. Each and every guidance counselor and administrator at the school has assured me that the kid’ll probably be the next Gates or Zuckerberg when he gets out of school and away from them. There’ s a foundation that solicits private contributions that supplement taxes in supporting the school and whole wings have been named for grateful and successful alums. There will be a Jaysson X wing over my dead body.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      The parents whose quiet, well organized boys are getting into Ivies are thrilled with our local system. And that’s a lot of boys, over half of the kids who go on to high quality schools from our local high school are boys. There’s no numerical basis to prove that boys qua boys are being discriminated against.

      What about this post? The point is that when you exact punitive measures against non-quiet, disorganized boys from an early age, you’re sidelining a lot of talented kids. The very kids who don’t sit still in kindergarten probably have some of the most innovative minds, and from an early age they experience a sort of shame for not being “good like the girls.”

  • Lokland

    @Coop

    Ughh I hated French. I finished it with a 51%, my teacher tried to ask em one time why I wasn’t working, I asked him what my mark was, he goes and gets it. 52%

    I wish I could go back in time and yell STEEL ON TARGET.

    Also, yeah, as a general rule don’t listen to the school councillors. Mine were worse than useless. The plan one suggested would have kept me in high school an extra year.

  • Lokland

    @J

    Based upon some of your descriptions, may I suggest your son reminds me of quite a few friends I had as well as myself (except there is no Ivy league in Canada) and we all became far more motivated when there was actually something interesting to do.

  • Cooper

    “When we asked for details, the teacher lamented that although he was acing the class, he spent the whole period looking out the window.”

    LMAO. I heard the exact same thing.
    This was literally the view from a few of my classes, English class specifically, we all sat in relatively the same seats, and I had a window seat.
    “Cooper, eyes inside!” is what I hear when I recall the view, lol.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/oceanfrontcampus.jpg/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      That’s where you grew up? That is incredible! What a beautiful place! Who could concentrate with that out the window?

  • Ted D

    This article very much mirrors the experience I’ve had with two boys in the public school system. Being an advocate for them could be my full time job, and I’d still get nowhere with our administration.

    Susan – “Another thing that was very difficult is that the world is very biased against introverted males. “

    Yep very much this. Not only are the schools generally stacked against boys, but woe to the introverted boy in a public school. My mother was told my entire school carrier that I was lazy and lacked initiative, and that if I would just step up and ‘lead’ I would do so much better.

    Sounds an awful lot like the same argument from MMSL on leading the family, does it not? The problem is: I have no desire to BE a leader of people. And, no matter how much the school wanted that to change, to this day it hasn’t. I’ve learned to do it when necessary, but I still dislike it and try to avoid it when possible. That being said, I’ve managed to get and keep gainful employment, live a decent life, pay my taxes, and be a contributing member of society despite the fact that my teachers all claimed I’d get nowhere in life based on my “performance” is the classroom.

    “Interestingly, I have been contacted several times by men who are politically active as MRAs – in the Male Studies movement, Paul Elam, and a group fighting for the rights of divorced fathers. I was even asked to be on the board of one such organization. This is ironic, at least to me, and will no doubt surprise those who see me regularly vilified by MRA/Game bloggers and their readers.”

    I’m not surprised in the least. One of the reasons I “can’t quit Susan” is that what Ian said is true: you are by far one of the most open minded women I’ve ever had the pleasure of conversing with. But, that doesn’t mean that I don’t sometimes think you’d be far “cooler” if you came just a little bit more my way :p

    Personally I think joining such an organization might be a good thing for the organization and yourself. I would hope the atmosphere there would be more positive than negative (in other words the polar opposite of the ‘sphere) and perhaps you would find yourself more open than you are now to how some men see the Red Pill. For my part, it is the fact that I can see you being a VERY successful advocate for men’s rights that sets me on your rear so often. I know I suck at social stuff, and when I see people that are good at it AND have the basic understanding of the issues, I tend to push them. See? I’m not a natural leader, but I’m not above “guiding” people!

    JT – “Unfortunately, I know many Catholic boys who did not have a great time of it in monk-run schools.”

    I wish I’d gone to a Monk run Catholic school! Ours was run by a nun, (we used to call her Sister Mary Punishment, behind her back of course!) and all but the smallest minority of our teachers were nuns. (Our science and gym teachers were “civilians”, imagine that!) I suspect that at least 2/3 of those nuns disliked or even hated little boys based on how they treated us.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Revoluzione’s humble definition of that “red pill”, (which I prefer to call fish bones, for better ensuing metaphorical usage) has got me more than puzzled, for mating is not the primary driver of human behavior, whereas surviving is, mating entering the surviving driver only once we’re off the childhood sphere.
    I totally concurr with Richard Aubrey’s comment about the “red pill” being a particular conclusion, and would even go further and refine it as such: A conclusion drawn from a negative experience which leaves some with such a durable negative view that their partially obscured, dirt filled lens is never willingly cleaned, whereas for others an opportunity to clean up that lens once the pain gone so as not to repeat the same mistakes due to that malfunctioning lens, (the only one we possess when we’re still too young).
    So, to sum it up with the fish bone metaphor, instead of thinking that all fish taste no good and are smelling, and that fish bones are specifically design to make us choke on it, better selectively observe, sniff, and, once bought, carefully eat your fish so as not to swallow fish bones again.

    As for the post, yes, this is a readily admitted fact and has been discussed among French academics for decades. The primary reason is obvious: Women are over represented in the teaching field, especially at the kindergarten level. Here are statistics for the man/woman ratio in the French educational system in 2011:
    Percentage of female teachers in:
    Maternelle (kindergarten) 93%
    Primary school: 78%
    Secondary school: 57%
    Source: INSEE (Institut National de la Statistique et des études économiques) . I’m sure those statistics would vary in points in the US, but I’m sure they’d provide over all the same picture.
    I would disagree with Susan’s claim that the bias against boys is a “bi product of feminism”, which is true in other fields. Instead, I think that the school system, what it requires of students, often suits better girls’ behavioral patterns than boys’, like, among many things, a greater willingness to obey and or submissiveness to authority, as well as, as pointed out in the post’s survey, a greater task persistence and eagerness to learn. The latter makes all the sense in the world to me, since, among other things, I’ve always marvelled at women’s often greater sense of curiosity than we have.
    Anyway, in the end, I think that it gets more balanced at the university level.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      Instead, I think that the school system, what it requires of students, often suits better girls’ behavioral patterns than boys’, like, among many things, a greater willingness to obey and or submissiveness to authority, as well as, as pointed out in the post’s survey, a greater task persistence and eagerness to learn.

      This makes sense, but if the boys test more strongly even with less eagerness, persistence, etc. – all the non-cognitive traits – then why are their grades lower? Grades should reflect mastery of the material rather than conduct or demeanor, and here we have clear evidence that the best performers in math and science are not getting the best grades. I find that very troubling.

      Anyway, in the end, I think that it gets more balanced at the university level.

      I know that in Italy, anyone may go to any university or program like law, medical, business, etc. If you fail, you fail, but everyone is allowed to try. So there it’s clearly a question of how well you can do the work.

      The problem is that in the US college admission is selective, and one’s grades are the most important qualifier. This study aims to begin to explore why our national college enrollment is only 40% male.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    We shouldn’t be trying to remake everyone into female extroverts – like me, or worse, Amanda Marcotte!

    Self-negging lol? ;) You two do not belong in the same sentence.

  • J

    Great comment.

    Thanks; that means a lot.

    This was me. HS was about enduring, surviving the machine. I barely got into college.

    Yep, that’s my boy too. This resonates with me.

  • Ted D

    “Based upon some of your descriptions, may I suggest your son reminds me of quite a few friends I had as well as myself (except there is no Ivy league in Canada) and we all became far more motivated when there was actually something interesting to do.”

    Add me and at least two of my friends growing up to this list. (and as noted minus the ivy league stuff) I will NOT motivate myself to do one damn thing I don’t see a reward in, to this day in fact. Most people see that as lazy, I see it as conserving my resources for things more interesting/better to do.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    Actually, the fact that it’s a shitty job, especially now that union benefits are being eliminated, is a far bigger disincentive to men. A guy who needs to support his own family will go into the private sector instead. The same has happened with quality women teachers since other opportunities opened up. The smart woman who was the best Civics teacher in town is now a lawyer; the woman who taught you to love Biology is now a doctor. When teaching becomes a respected, well compensated profession, more men will do it.

    Exactly. I don’t care how respected it is, but I have to make a living…

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    My favorite example of this is my junior year science class.

    Sophomore year was chemistry. I did phenomenonally on most things but got a B in the class. Reason being I received a D on my paper on nuclear power…because I didn’t do any of the mandatory “drafts” or “notes” that made up a sizable part of the paper grade. The actual paper was a near perfect A.

    The Chemistry teacher realized I was bored and moved me into an Honors class for junior year physics.

    In that class, we had online quizzes we were required to complete. But they consisted almost entirely of “gotcha” questions with vague wording. After numerous “failing” grades on these stupid tests, I refused to do them, and ended up getting a 30% for this online work.

    On the semester final, I received a 106.3%, every question perfectly correct, the highest score ever in that class. But I received a B because of this online work I refused to do.

    The following year, my brother hacked the system and crashed the online quizzes.

  • Cooper

    @Ted D
    “Most people see that as lazy, I see it as conserving my resources for things more interesting/better to do.”

    That’s because as INTJs, our bottom line is always efficiency.

  • Just1Z

    appreciated

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hey Just1Z, good to see you. Glad this post was near and dear enough to your heart to elicit a comment :)

  • J

    I can see why that isn’t ideal,

    Actually, it is ideal. The goal of schools shold be to create learners who CAN learn independently. Unfortunately, there’s not the real agenda. The real agenda is to produce wage slaves, not to foster your kid’s personal development.

  • Ted D

    J – “Actually, it is ideal. The goal of schools shold be to create learners who CAN learn independently. Unfortunately, there’s not the real agenda.”

    I would go further and say that by and large the goal of the public school system in the U.S. is to purposely NOT teach people how to think for themselves, but instead learn to rely on “authority figures” to tell you what you believe and desire. It goes beyond making good little worker bees into making an easy to control populace.

    Or maybe I’m just a conspiracy nut. :P

    Cooper – Yeah, unfortunately most of the world doesn’t give a rats ass about efficiency, as can be easily seen by our “throw away” consumer society.

  • J

    and we all became far more motivated when there was actually something interesting to do.

    I’m hoping and praying for that. Rationally, I believe it will happen–the kid won an engineering award at a science fair and then got a D in the class the teacher who organizes the fair teaches–but I get scared. He’s on a robotics team now. Everyone does a tech job and a business job. He’s loving it and doing great. Hopefully this will help him get into a good college he can drop out of before he morphs into Jobs/Gates/Zuck. ;-)

    I’ve had with two boys in the public school system. Being an advocate for them could be my full time job, and I’d still get nowhere with our administration.

    BTDT, designed the T-shirt.

    Most people see that as lazy, I see it as conserving my resources for things more interesting/better to do.

    LMAO. I adore you, Ted. So INTJ… When you grow some teeth, you’ll be a perfect sigma.

  • J

    Or maybe I’m just a conspiracy nut.

    Not at all. Did you see my first post in this thread? It elaborates your point.

  • Deli

    2 Ted D
    //Sounds an awful lot like the same argument from MMSL on leading the family, does it not? The problem is: I have no desire to BE a leader of people.

    I had the same thing till a few years back. I preferred to be the “reliable specialist”, always hated the fuss of organizing people and dealing with opinions, strengths and weaknesses of people.
    But one thing I always hated more, were incompetent people who led me.

    So when I realized, that I want grand things in life, things that can’t be achieved solo, I had no choice that to force myself to learn the ropes of leading people. And eventually I got into that.

    To this day my greatest drive in professional success is the incompetence of people above me :)

    Not suggesting anything, just sharing my experience

  • Ted D

    J – “LMAO. I adore you, Ted. ”

    I think I blushed just now. Lucky I’m hiding in my cube…

    “Not at all. Did you see my first post in this thread? It elaborates your point.”

    Yep and I’ve felt similarly since my boy started school. (I didn’t see this at all when my daughter started before him of course)

    Thing is, in my circle of friends there are a few 3rd party guys that are VERY anti-big government, almost to the level of hiding in the woods with guns, so I tend to worry that I’m coming across as a real nut when I go on about this stuff. But the truth is, I often wonder if there isn’t some overreaching all-powerful group of people calling the shots.

    Its either that or we have fallen victim to a cascading number of tragic and unfortunate social situations by sheer chance/stupidity.

    Of course, the more I look around me, the more I’m willing to concede it could just be stupidity.

  • Russ in Texas

    Regarding the original post:

    Given that so much of the educational establishment has been the direct political allies of groups which are not merely feminist, but misandryst, I suspect that many people will read this, put 2+2 together, and finish the first sentence with “on purpose.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Russ

      At the risk of getting political again, I’ll say this: the teacher’s union has gotta go.

  • Ted D

    Deti – “Not suggesting anything, just sharing my experience”

    As always I appreciate your input. I’ve done my best to put myself in positions where I am the lone expert as you described. The problem is I’ve about run the course with that line of thinking in terms of moving up the corporate ladder. I simply can’t move further along without accepting responsibility for managing others, and it has had my career stalled for a few years now.

    I’m (hopefully) working my into a position that will move me along but not strap me with a huge group of people to manage. Shouldn’t be more than around 5 folks to be responsible for, and if I can pick the right people that should be a piece of cake. If I can’t, things could get miserable.

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    The following year, my brother hacked the system and crashed the online quizzes.

    ROFL. Win!

  • Ted D

    Russ in Texas – “I suspect that many people will read this, put 2+2 together, and finish the first sentence with “on purpose.””

    I have never believed for one second that this isn’t intentional. I’m just not exactly sure who is getting the benefit, and therefor the most likely culprit.

  • J

    Oh, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Boys like yours and mine lose out, but my biggest opposition in trying to make changes comes, not from feminists, but from the conforming fathers of conforming boys who want to get those boys into top schools and see our school system as good at facilitating that. I try to console myself that those good boys will one day make nice, little worker bees who will expeditethe details my creative boy has no patience for.

    That’s my compensatory fantasy, anyway. ;-)

  • Damien Vulaume

    @J
    The real agenda is to produce wage slaves, not to foster your kid’s personal development.

    Oh yes…. and in non western cultures, it would often translate as fostering kids into the regime’s “goals”:

    Dictatorship: You do that excercise or I’ll put you in the corner.

    Totalitarianism: You must do that excercise in order for you to have a job that will make you useful to everybody later.

    Capitalism, the US way: I know you can do it, think positive and try again. And smile!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The very kids who don’t sit still in kindergarten probably have some of the most innovative minds, and from an early age they experience a sort of shame for not being “good like the girls.”

    Or they adapt to the situations as necessary and feminize themselves.
    Then you get feminized men.

    I couldn’t read at the end of grade 1 cause I was to busy running around doing other crap, not paying attention and in general acting like a boy.
    By grade 6 I was reading at a grade 11-12 level, never interrupted, never got up etc.

    Though perhaps thats cause I’m an INTJ. I saw what worked and did that.

  • Russ in Texas

    My own experience as an INFP was that my twin, who wasn’t so hot at the FP’ing part, was routinely in trouble with the teachers for behavior that was actually FAR milder than what I engaged in regularly.

    Unless a girl said I’d done something wrong — in which case I was prima facie SKROOD — I essentially did whatever I wanted, having effectively “gamed” the teachers by figuring out what they wanted. The fact that I was honestly interested in learning everything in the cosmos after didn’t hurt, either (though unlike some of the posters here, I’ve a strong liberal arts inclination as a synthesist rather than an analyst).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Unless a girl said I’d done something wrong — in which case I was prima facie SKROOD

      Yes, I saw this a lot as well. When there were two versions of any event, the girls’ version was always viewed as more credible. Ugh, it’s been twenty years and I’m getting riled up just thinking about this stuff!

  • J

    so I tend to worry that I’m coming across as a real nut when I go on about this stuff.

    Nah, we’re just being realistic about how capitalism works. You just have to so what you can to keep your kid from being fodder for the machine.

  • Russ in Texas

    @Damien#67 and J:

    re: wage-slaves.
    This continues all the way up into junior college; the dominant meme amongst those paying for the facilities is that students are to be trained so that they can go to work, rather than being educated so that they can have mastery of themselves. “Worker Bees” who don’t challenge the system.

    Texas is heading AWAY from that in general (and is about six years in front of the Feds, which is why you may read about TX not participating in new curricula ventures — they’re taking notes from us), with a revamped curriculum which focuses heavily on critical thinking. But without professors to back it up, and administrators who will let them, it’s anybody’s guess as to whether it will work.

  • J

    DV–yep, brilliant!

  • Rich

    I went to elementary school almost 20 years ago and still remember some of the things my 2nd grade teacher said to me as if it were yesterday. I’ll admit I wasn’t the best behaved kid but this lady more or less picked on a 7 year old everyday.

  • VD

    This is ironic, at least to me, and will no doubt surprise those who see me regularly vilified by MRA/Game bloggers and their readers

    They think you’re an inveterate member of Team Woman. The reality, in my opinion, is that you’re simply optimistic and have yet to grok the imaginary nature of equality.

    I try to console myself that those good boys will one day make nice, little worker bees who will expedite the details my creative boy has no patience for.

    He’ll be fine. But if he doesn’t want to go to college, or wants to drop out to pursue an opportunity, support him. My biggest mistake was completing my college degree instead of making a business of the sound board I’d designed.

    Or maybe I’m just a conspiracy nut.

    You’re not. Read William Torrey Harris. Then John Taylor Gatto. The school system is lobotomizing those it can and sidelining those it can’t, exactly as it was designed to do in the early 20th century. Look particularly closely at The School and Social Progress by John Dewey, published in 1892.

    “Dewey’s educational theories were presented in My Pedagogic Creed (1897), The School and Society (1900), The Child and the Curriculum (1902), Democracy and Education (1916) and Experience and Education (1938). Throughout these writings, several recurrent themes ring true; Dewey continually argues that education and learning are social and interactive processes, and thus the school itself is a social institution through which social reform can and should take place.”

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Susan.
    You’re right about the College admission thing. In Italy as in France, it is pretty much the same process, as opposed to the US one, although in both France and Italy there is also a highly selective process when it comes to those top elite schools aimed at forming the very top crust of French society called “les grandes ecoles”, from which EVERY SINGLE top politician or manager comes out of. In that regard, prestigious universities like the one in Bologna or La Sorbonne are considered as the laughing stock when it comes to forming the future elites. Very hypocritical indeed.

    This makes sense, but if the boys test more strongly even with less eagerness, persistence, etc. – all the non-cognitive traits – then why are their grades lower? Grades should reflect mastery of the material rather than conduct or demeanor, and here we have clear evidence that the best performers in math and science are not getting the best grades. I find that very troubling.

    Yes, sure, but again, I think that this is because there is a bias based on school demeanor and judged negatively by a predominantly dominated female field area. not matter what the test results are.

  • Deli

    2 Ted
    Just to make sure there is no confusion.
    I am Deli (short for Delichon)

    Deti is a completely different person :)

    One of many things that set us apart is that I’ve never seen him use emoticons :)

  • Sassy6519

    I have absolutely no malicious intent behind the following questions. I’m just very curious/fascinated about something, and I figured that the men here could help me to understand things a bit better.

    On this thread, a few of the men have spoken about their school experiences. A common theme seems to revolve around their high test taking abilities, but low to relatively non-existent success with completing homework assignments. If this is a gender difference, I’m curious as to the reason for the difference.

    Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?

  • SayWhaat

    I try to console myself that those good boys will one day make nice, little worker bees who will expeditethe details my creative boy has no patience for.

    Ha, you just summarized my beef with Asian parents! :P

    Re: school, the smart kids quickly figure out that the system is easily gamed. Especially in high school when everyone takes 7 AP classes, you begin to figure out where to cut corners in certain classes. One of my HS friends’ mottos was, “minimum effort for maximum gain.” Doesn’t matter if it’s a 99% or 89.99% if it still rounds to an A.

    It’s a pity because I know so many smart people who would have made excellent teachers, but it’s not a decent living, especially for those fresh out of undergrad.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?”

    If you can’t see who’s the best why bother?

    Remember telling us about your ex who had excellent Halo(?) or some such score online.
    Its up there for the world to see, it matters. Women don’t get why it matters but it does.

    In my school they weren’t allowed to show you other peoples grades. It was considered unethical.

    Trying to get a 1o year old to think about after college is useless. Its fairly easy to make him want to mentally beat the shit out of others, but thats not allowed cause women don’t like direct competition.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In my school they weren’t allowed to show you other peoples grades. It was considered unethical.

      I remember my 5th grade teacher had a competition. Anyone with a year-long average of 90 or higher got to go on a special all day trip to NYC, packed with fun activities. She posted the results for the whole class to see, with names attached. That would never happen today.

      Once when advocating for my son to get more challenging math work (rather than being used as a tutor) in second grade, the teacher belligerently put me in my place by telling me that “all children are equally gifted.” That was during an era where all tracking was frowned upon, I think it’s gotten better since.

  • SayWhaat

    Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?

    Overly simplistic hypothesis: boys learn by Doing, girls learn through Repetition. If it isn’t physical in some way, it’s boring/not worth the time and effort for boys.

    Just a theory though. FWIW, I empathize greatly with the guys here. I was a fairly rambunctious girl and often heard, “why can’t you just be more like [good kid]?” from my parents and teachers. (Later I learned that being the “good kid” allowed me to get away with all sorts of shit. :P)

  • SayWhaat

    If you can’t see who’s the best why bother?

    …that actually makes a ton of sense.

    That also explains why certain Indian boys were hell-bent on putting me down.

    Huh. Wow.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Utah is somewhat unique in that it is probably one of a handful places left in America where men go to college more than women and graduate at a higher rate (6% difference). It’s a bit more patriarchal here in general.

    I have not experienced the elementary level education here, but I am very curious how it plays out. I hope our boy will have a less difficult time than what has been described here…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    If you can’t see who’s the best why bother?

    Remember telling us about your ex who had excellent Halo(?) or some such score online.
    Its up there for the world to see, it matters. Women don’t get why it matters but it does.

    So, if something doesn’t involve competition, it isn’t worth doing?

    I’m just trying to understand this.

  • VD

    Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?

    First, because most homework is makework. Once you figure out how to do a math problem, for example, you don’t need to do it 25 more times to prove it. If you’ve read a historical work, regurgitating it on paper with the book itself as reference doesn’t mean you’ve learned anything at all. I never did homework unless forced, and once in college, seldom went to class unless a test was scheduled. It’s not just about homework per se, it’s all about different methods of learning. For example, I simply didn’t need either homework or lectures to learn because I don’t learn by listening. I tune out within seconds as soon as someone starts lecturing; give me a book and I’ll happily read it three times.

    Second, men tend to have a harder time on tedious tasks than women because there is nothing upon which they can bring their generally superior focus to bear. Women tend to be much better at plowing through mindless and repetitive tasks because they can mentally multi-task.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – “Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?”

    For my part it was simple. I already knew the material and refused to waste my time doing homework I didn’t need to do. The fact that I passed my tests proved I knew my material, but I got crushed with zeros on homework.

    My boy’s grades suffer from exact same thing, and now I understand why my mother was so frustrated with me. And I find it difficult to talk him into doing it when I damn well know I didn’t do it myself.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “So, if something doesn’t involve competition, it isn’t worth doing?”

    Kind of.
    Some things are only worth doing because of the competition (video games, think about the number of teenage guys that go from noncompetitive school to home where they can actually compete online).

    One of mens base drives is competition. Its innate, we love winning or trying everything that we can to win.
    Education doesn’t offer much to boys. They do ‘need’ that education but its delivered in a format that plays to none of their strengths. Trying to logically explain to a kid that they need to work hard to go to college to get a job etc. isn’t effective.

    Telling him that if he beats everyone else he will be the best is effective.

    Thats largely due to competition. Men compete in life to attain mates, it makes sense we’d start practicing early.

    One major difference between male and female competition is the end result. Female competition results in rejection from the herd.
    Men tend to just lower their rank in the pack, if the pack is good that member is encouraged or forced to do better. Its a positive feedback loop for boys, lose competition, try harder.
    A good example of that would be any type of martial arts gym. You can see the hierarchy but its based on large amounts of respect, encouragement, improvement not denigration (unless the guy is totally hopeless, ie. omega)

    @Susan

    “She posted the results for the whole class to see, with names attached. That would never happen today.”

    I had a calc teacher who did that but he was old, foreign and a retired engineer. Teaching high school was his downtime so rules didn’t concern him.

    I think an all boys school with grades listed from highest to lowest would do more to encourage learning/effort than a million punishments.

  • Tasmin

    “So, if something doesn’t involve competition, it isn’t worth doing?”

    Or everything is competition and if that is ignored or replaced by something else, some artificial goal like how easy you make the teacher’s job, and you are consistently sent the message that that twitch inside of you is working against that goal, it just might seem like a game not worth playing. Or you learn to kill that thing inside you and play along waiting for recess, then college, then that fishing trip with your buddies where every f-ing thing you do is a competition and you love every minute of it. And you get to crush beers.

  • Cooper

    @Sassy

    To me, it was less to do with competition, and more to so with RESULTS.

    I saw that some things didn’t yield results, so to me they weren’t worth doing.

    Now that you have me thinking, maybe competition (or lack of) did play a role – cause the only thing that ever mattered, school wise, was that I had a better understanding of the material than most. In the sense, that I could explain it to someone else, or I could, if need be, demonstrate I know it.
    Doing repetitive homework, to demonstrate to a single instructor, had no benefit in my eyes.
    To me, the idea of doing so much time consuming homework for so little marks was a joke. In my eyes, that layed somewhere between spinning ones tires, so to speak, and just plain brown nosing. (Two things I don’t like)

    My parents always say to me, even to today, that I need to learn the life lesson of how to suck up, or “play their game.” Cause I’d often refuse to.

  • Anne

    Surely there are more ‘extremes’ among men. They are at the top and at the bottom, and overall, there will be more losers than geniuses. Since they are more competitive, they are inspired when doing well, but can easily give up and fall out of the competition if they don’t excel.

    I don’t think it’s because they’re not bothered with ‘tedious work’. From what I observe, a lot of guys don’t sit down with the work to begin with, so it’s not a matter of focus.
    I don’t know about the US, but in Europe there has been an increase in presentations and group work over the past 20 years. If it was just a matter of studying methods, they should do better now. But they don’t.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    +1 to what others have said.

    Repetition is a no go unless its not understood.

    I also didn’t do homework or read anything in college or take many notes for that matter or do much of anything now that I think about it.
    Unlike VD I enjoyed lectures but I considered them more like story time than learning time.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy, Anne

    “Since they are more competitive, they are inspired when doing well, but can easily give up and fall out of the competition if they don’t excel.”

    When I was talking about female herd rejection this is what I meant.
    This is projection.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Wait, better question.
    Why would I DO homework?

    Asking me why I didn’t do homework is like asking me why I did not build a trench from here to Montreal: because it’s a lot of pointless work that I don’t care about.

  • Anne

    @Lokland
    Please explain how that is projection. I have never, ever seen evidence that it is a female rather than male phenomenon.

  • Russ in Texas

    @Sassy#79,

    Because men tend to be more individualistic, it’s also often the case that they need to be sold on the work being worthwhile. I knew very few guys who gave a purple snort about whether they picked up little gold stars. I did *horribly* in school until *I* decided I was interested in learing, and then it was off to the races: my twin was the same thing in a far more extreme example (crap grades until junior year of HS, then suddenly acing all the toughest courses that gave me night-sweats).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland, VD, Ted D, Tasmin, ADBG, Cooper, and Russ

    Thanks guys for the explanations. I appreciate it. A lot of the things you all have mentioned make sense to me.

    Many of the things you have mentioned are also very similar to some of the sentiments my guy has stated about his time in school. This thread has prompted me to stop and think about some of my interactions with him. From what I have gathered so far, my guy is super competitive. He also stated that much of school was a waste, in his opinion. He has a very high IQ, but he found homework to be tedious and boring.

    The differences in learning styles/preferences between the sexes fascinates me.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    FWIW, I have to separate myself from Lok here: I am not a competitive guy in the slightest. I learn because I like to learn, not to directly compete. Indirectly compete, in terms of showing off…maybe, but I don’t compete, and grades don’t matter to me.

    I just didn’t care about most of the subjects so I didn’t put any effort into them, and the homework was just an additional waste of time.

  • Russ in Texas

    I agree that much of school was babysitting rather than learning, and am foursquare positive on homeschoolling — and considering it for my daughter. (We got a very late start and are likely one-and-done — I’d probably be **adamant** on it if I had a son right now, but I also have the chops to teach, which some folks don’t.)

  • Deli

    Ok, there is obviously a lot of childhood traumas in the comments :)

    For me homework was always about focus.

    Sure, I knew how to solve a problem or how to spell. And doing same shit over 25 times bore me to tears. But it always made sure that at least in one of the problems I would make a stupid mistakes like forgetting to carry the 1 in multiplication, or miss a letter.

    And as my parents used to tell me “In real life there will be no teacher to check your work for you. If you do it – you do it right the first time” You know the saying: “Just one “oh, shit” eliminates all the “at-a-boy”s you have accumulated so far”

    So I didn’t like the homework, but I knew, even as a kid, why I had to do it. As I was preparing myself for the entry exam in a very fancy university, I learned to switch my mind into a zen-like state, where I would eliminate all my thought except the most basic mathematical functions, making sure that I physically could not miss a step in calculations.

    Than I decided to apply for a completely different university that did not require such rigor, and I forever lost that skill.

    Fast forward 7-10 years, and queue in my team manager telling me, that he was grateful to have me on the team, because I could crack up any case – but at the same time he was frustrated to no end with always having someone to check on my work. As I could leave some terribly embarrassing spelling mistake in the title of the report, or make a complex excel model on my own, only to forget a single cell, that would screw up the final by about 15% off the actual one :)

    In the end I whipped myself up in shape. It costed me and costs me still, but I got there.

    But if my parents found the write words at that time, maybe I could have started on this road earlier, or been more tenacious while trekking it.

  • Emily

    >> “The principal of the school has assured me that he wants the school to be place where any kid who puts in effort can succeed. I have joked to him that I hope my son is long gone before that happens because if effort is doing the busy work that proves a kid “tried,” my son will never graduate.”

    In elementary/middle school, this was a huge pet peeve! I used to plow through my school assignments so I could sit in the back reading. I eventually fell in line because grades were based pretty much entirely on “effort”, and my parents were really strict about grades. But I still maintain that I would have learned more from reading my books than I would have from adding a pretty border to my writing assignments. Grrr!!!!

  • Someons

    @LokLand

    even if that was done it would help maybe %20 percent of the boys, and the rest would be even more demotivated

  • Deli

    Jees, and here is the example – my post is a mess.

    A total bummer. I like writing, but I hate the fact that for me writing stuff always takes so long. For every 1 hour spent on searching for and formulating an idea, I have to spend 3 hours on formatting, spell-checking and ironing out the sentences.
    Skip this step – and you get total garbage.

    So I chose to write as little as possible.

  • J

    students are to be trained so that they can go to work, rather than being educated so that they can have mastery of themselves.

    Mastery of self–well, we certainly can’t have that now, can we? Who will do this when we are all masters of ourselves?

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT “wage slaves” The second word is overhype, while the first is characteristic. IOW, the “slave” is getting a wage and can support himself.
    I have no problem with that. Manufacturers are going nuts that they can’t find enough people equipped to be wage slaves, so even that isn’t working.
    When you figure class time by the pupil-minute of value, what do you see?
    X amount of time taking roll or marking it down or passing out papers.
    Y amount of time in classroom management
    Z amount of time answering a question from a student, or reiterating a concept to be sure everybody or most, anyway, get it when the student in question already gets it.
    You have how many valuable minutes in the class hour for any one student?
    Between what you need to learn to be at least marginally employable, and the X,Y, and Z listed above, the amount of time available to learn about the greater world, the way the world works, and to be capable of critical thinking about such issues is limited. Very limited. Among other things, the kid doesn’t have the context or the basis for some of it.
    Giving him “Babbitt” so he can sneer at people who actually work without first explaining the economy, and certain laws of physics, or the Gods of The Copybook Headings is at best useless and likely pernicious.
    We have the rest of our lives to do this, and we should.
    Forget Dancing with The Stars and, dare I say it, Susan’s crush, something about the Girls or whatever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Forget Dancing with The Stars and, dare I say it, Susan’s crush, something about the Girls or whatever.

      Oh my goodness, do not put my darling Lena Dunham in the same category as those terrible reality shows!

  • J

    Unlike VD I enjoyed lectures but I considered them more like story time than learning time.

    That’s a matter of learning style. A good lecturer is often a good story-teller though.

    I love Q & A/dialogue. I’m a very agressive question-asker and love to be asked questions as well.

  • J

    In the end I whipped myself up in shape.

    Deli, how did you do that if I may ask? Any advice for others?

  • Joe S.

    Don’t know if this was touched on in the comments but this is a two fold problem, the first being men getting “left behind” in the classroom as the post indicates, and secondly men not being raised with traditional blue collar skills that they used to.

    They are plenty of technical jobs avaiable on the market but very few men left to fill them. This isn’t of the turning a bolt with a wrench variety, but of the welding, iron work and skilled carpentry type. I don’t think there was an issue filling these jobs in times past.

    This is becoming an issue because as our infrastructure crumbles, the cost of doing repairs goes skyward simply because the wages now required to pay for people who possess these skill sets will go higher and higher as less people become proficient in them.

    I see many men these days entering services-type careers and part of the problem is we don’t need the middle-management, services industry types as much and the market is becoming flooded with them. An iron-worker may not sound like a glamorous position, and with men adopting feminine traits to succeed in schools, we will continue to be set behind in fields like those.

    (I say “men filling these positions” because they are historically male heavy industries and, in 8 years as a machinist, have yet to see one female apply to shop. Although there usually a line come apication day for both men and women for the front office positions)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    British author Doris Lessing, circa 2001:

    “I was in a class of nine- and 10-year-olds, girls and boys, and this young woman was telling these kids that the reason for wars was the innately violent nature of men.

    “You could see the little girls, fat with complacency and conceit while the little boys sat there crumpled, apologising for their existence, thinking this was going to be the pattern of their lives.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Awesome quote from Doris Lessing! Here’s more:

      Why do you think… what is the motive that you perceive why feminists are putting men down… why they’re treating them in a cruel inferior way?
      Lessing: Well they’re been put down for so long, so they’re getting they’re own back… and it’s simple revenge, a lot of it… And also I don’t think they realise how very unpleasant they are. What a lot of bitches have been created by the women’s movement. It really is frightening. But you know, the thing that I really was on about in Edinburgh… I said that the whole of the 1960′s movement had been a sexual revolution. It hadn’t really done the situation of women much good….with all great fun, God knows. But when I was a girl, I said… I had a role model – a word that had not been created then – and she used to say to us, ‘girls, go out and get yourself equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity… and good nurseries, and then you will be equal with men.’ Now, it is a long time in the women’s movement since any of them have thought about changing laws… or fighting… boring old fighting, and committed. Well we don’t do that any more. We think it’s absolutely wonderful if some girl has an exciting sexual life – and jolly good luck to her – but it doesn’t change anything.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @everyone
    Well, as far as high school anecdotes are concerned, I could go on for ever as well about it, for it is a revelatory thing about the gender differences, aka the way the male or the female teacher was biased. Human nature is, for both genders, inescapable, and when it comes to school, a good way of laughing about it.
    I briefly joked the other day about some Spanish language teacher of ours we had in high school (we were 16, so I guess the sophomore equivalent in the US.). This was in Paris. The whole classroom had an absolutely “human bonding” girl/boy TOTAL hatred about that teacher: Mr Romero, a skinny Spanish mustached man in his,,, maybe late fifties, impeccably dressed in a ridiculous official “costume and cravate way”, along with a high pitched yet terryfing voice, which he used as a whip, along with a more than obviously sadistically threatening black eyed look in his eyes.
    Even the “spanishofiles” in the class had bad grades and refused to learn with such a creature. I was among the smal crowd of “willing to study” yet fiercely rebellious boy students in the class when the rules where unfair. So, we were all in to make him pay dearly, the way kids can be extremely cruel: The classrooms doors all had metallic door handles, so after some point, when we were waiting for his class to begin before he came in, I would ask if anyone had a lighter, in order to heat up the handle just moments before he would come in and therefore burning (in the end, just hurting) his hand. This I asked because another guy had previously put pins on his chair and Senor Romero had noticed it just in time…
    What was funny was that the very first ones to quickly pull out a lighter from their bags (all kids smoked cigarettes at that age) where the girls who had said nothing all along, but had at that moment a quiet, shiny, and intense look and grin that said: Yes, go get him!…
    Romero howled when he opened the door and we were all sent to the headmaster’s office, of course… Lol. Such, such were the days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      Your Romero story sounds like something from a Truffaut film! Very funny, and a clever prank too.

  • VD

    I don’t think it’s because they’re not bothered with ‘tedious work’. From what I observe, a lot of guys don’t sit down with the work to begin with, so it’s not a matter of focus. I don’t know about the US, but in Europe there has been an increase in presentations and group work over the past 20 years. If it was just a matter of studying methods, they should do better now. But they don’t.

    I suspect you are missing the point. They don’t have to sit down with the work to know it is tedious. Moreover, presentations and group work are exactly the sort of thing that don’t appeal to men in the slightest. Seriously, group work? That’s enough to give most men the willies; we hear it as “so you do the work and we’ll sit over here and talk while you’re at it”. Moreover, it can’t be a question of not excelling when the top men are actually more likely to drop out and refuse to do the makework than their less capable, but more feminized counterparts.

    Also, I live in Europe.

  • Lokland

    @Anne

    “Please explain how that is projection. I have never, ever seen evidence that it is a female rather than male phenomenon.”

    You also failed to provide evidence that is was a male phenomenon.

    Anyways, failure/disapproval hits women harder than it does men and in different ways.

    As a non-education example,

    After getting dumped,

    women tend to gain wait and get out of shape before fixing themselves up
    men skip directly to losing weight and fixing themselves up.

    The eating ice cream after a break up trope does have some basis in reality.
    Thats not a bad thing merely an observation that the occasional negative reinforcement tends to be positive for men whereas positive reinforcement is more beneficial to women because it prevents the slight backslide.

    Also, I’ve been teaching (not at the grade or high school level) voluntarily and for pay for 6-7 years combined.
    Most of that is in a small group setting where individual teaching is possible.
    I tell boys their wrong and how to fix it.
    I tell girls they’ve done a good job and how to do better.

    It can be exactly the same mistake but one approach works better than the other and thats largely split by sex. There are of course, like all things, exceptions.

    Last, you’ve provided an example in which one set of individuals is always the winners and one is always the loser.
    Highly unlikely, especially in multidisciplinary grade/high schools that teach liberal arts, social science and core sciences. Go ask my high school art teacher vs. chemistry teacher for an example.

    Constant failure will demotivate anyone. Duh. If thats the case its time to try something new.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “I learn because I like to learn, not to directly compete”

    ADBG, there are things I have learned merely for thrill which by every objective standard I failed at miserably.

    Ex. Fencing.

    There are also things I have learned purely for enjoyment.
    Ex. Aztec mythology.

    There are things I have learned for both competition, enjoyment and money.
    Ex. Biochemistry.

    There are things I did purely for the competition.
    Ex. Video games.

    As a general approach you can’t make someone enjoy a topic but competition can be made fairly universal.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Some rather sexist…and very self-congraulatory…remarks by women in the United States Senate.

    LINK

  • Lokland

    @J

    “That’s a matter of learning style. A good lecturer is often a good story-teller though.

    I love Q & A/dialogue. I’m a very agressive question-asker and love to be asked questions as well.”

    Classes were to large to ask questions. I was also horridly shy at the time.
    I tended to go ask a strong of questions that popped into my head after the lecture or during office hours. That proved to be helpful when I needed reference letters and or a good word put in.

  • VD

    I love Q & A/dialogue.

    So do I. My professors usually hated me, except for the three who invited me to do independent studies. In one class, I was actually forbidden to ask questions related to anything said by the tool who was the professor’s pet. She had the gift of asking the most inane questions in a manner that suggested vast intellectual depth; ironically, this was a Greek Classics class in which the Socratic method of exposing clueless sophistry was aggressively disdained.

  • Höllenhund

    This is all due to stubborn economic realities.

    There was a time when society needed for its own survival the contribution of literally all men as soldiers, farmers and workers. No matter how dumb, unsexy or anti-social a boy was, society simply couldn’t afford to let his potential go to waste. But this is no longer the case, for reasons that hardly need explanation here. The common consensus in Western societies seems to be that a large segment of men, maybe even the majority, is simply not needed for any serious task – so whatever potential they have is let go to waste.

    It’s really as simple as that. Feminist ideology plays a role, but it’d get nowhere without the economic reality underpinning its goals.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    J…”The smart woman who was the best Civics teacher in town is now a lawyer; the woman who taught you to love Biology is now a doctor. When teaching becomes a respected, well compensated profession, more men will do it.”

    Certainly, the opening up of other opportunities has tended to pull talented and ambitious women out of teaching. I think there are three other factors that are also very important:

    1)The requirement for public school teachers to attend “education schools,” the curriculum and general environment of which is not exactly appealing to independent-spirited and intellectually-curious people

    2)The extreme procedurilization and top-down micromanagement of public schools, combined with pure seniority-based pay and promotion (which has plenty to do with the teachers unions) does not attract ambitious and independent people.

    3)The use of lawsuits and other methods to disempower teachers from getting bad actors out of their classrooms, thereby contributing in many cases to dismal and even dangerous work environments for teachers.

  • Just1Z

    @Susan
    nothing much to add to what you wrote
    plus
    I’ve got busy with an old flame

  • VD

    I tell boys their wrong and how to fix it. I tell girls they’ve done a good job and how to do better.

    Our sprinter coach learned by trial-and-error that he needed to use different approaches for the men and women on speed day. If he took the “you go, girls” approach with everyone, the men would figure they were doing more than they needed to and slow down. The women, on the other hand, would be infused with confidence and run faster. If he took the drill sergeant approach, the men would bear down and run faster, whereas the women would get upset and completely break down.

    It was hilarious, or it would have been if I wasn’t so occupied with vomiting in between sprints. One moment, he’d be shouting “get a fucking move on, you pathetic slugs!” and about five seconds later, clapping his hands and calling “great job, ladies, looking good, keep it up!” It was the most schizophrenic thing I’ve ever seen, but it worked.

  • Random Angeleno

    For once, Susan steps a few real steps our way…

    I was one of those who tested through the roof, especially in math and science, but I absolutely hated school with a passion from 1st grade on. I hated being cooped up in the classroom until 3pm or whatever every dang day. Just hated it. As an introvert, I spent my time looking out the window or secretly reading whatever books I had checked out from the library. My favorite periods were PE and lunch. Thus I could never be arsed into doing more than token service to my homework and so my grades reflected that except that I always got A’s in math from 6th grade on. So imagine the shock of the school masters when I turned in the 2nd highest SAT score for my class. “Where have you been?” they said, to which I shot back “I don’t like school”. That didn’t sit well with them. I did manage to get into the college of my choice on the strength of that score and I got through it OK. Since then, I haven’t looked back or stepped into another classroom for advanced degrees though I’ve had many opportunities to do so.

    In recent years, I had the opportunity to do volunteer work as a tutor to middle and high school students. Not having children of my own, it shocked me how bad off the boys generally were compared to the girls. Just off the charts. So I haven’t been surprised to see my old college now has more female than male students by about 4 to 3 and the trend will likely be more like 3 to 2 in a few years. That’s bad, very bad for those girls’ marriage prospects, their parents need to be fighting hard for their boys still in school. I’m counseling my high school age nieces to be looking to be married before age 25.

  • Höllenhund

    “As much as I’m a Red Pill guy, the fact is that these scary concepts are difficult for folks closer to the mainstream to accept at face value without a compelling reason to do so. Susan is remarkable willing to consider a masculine perspective, something most women are not, but that does not mean she has abandoned the feminine perspective she has built for years.”

    That seems pretty close to the truth, but as far as the Red Pill and women are concerned, the reality is even more simple than that.

    The basic truth is that the Red Pill is fundamentally for men; it’s useless for most women. The Red Pill offers nothing that could make most women feel better about themselves and their options, it cannot give them more hope and self-confidence than they already have – in fact, it’s more likely to take it away. It’s basically nothing but a sh*t sandwich for them.

    Picture the average, say, 26-year-old single Western woman. Average attractiveness, average intelligence, average schooling with average student debt. What does the Red Pill tell her? Is she prepared to hear it, to handle what it says about her condition? How is she supposed to act on that message even if she listens to it?

    It’s that simple: women aren’t interested in the Red Pill, they don’t want to hear about it, they don’t want to listen to anyone trying to make them swallow it. It doesn’t matter if you try to sugarcoat the pill. That’s the defining issue, not a bunch of “angry”, “bitter”, “misogynist” Manosphere keyboard warriors.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    My public school experience was probably pretty good overall. In high school I had some excellent teachers, particularly in chemistry and biology (one had a Master’s degree). My English and social studies teachers were also excellent. Math teachers were meh. My physics teacher was awful, I think I got a C+ in twelve grade. The joke is on him now.

    My main problem is I never did homework in high school. Didn’t study for exams in class, didn’t study for standardized entrance exams, didn’t need to. When I entered university I failed two first year math courses. Wake-up call! It took until I was about half-way through grad school for me to catch up to the point that I was half-way decent in math. Now I’m probably above average for my peers but that’s largely because most theory is done with a computer now.

    My strength academically has never been my IQ. More-so memory and creativity. I’ve been told I get by on my ‘native wit,’ which is largely true. My GPA in undergrad was excrutible; it’s only in grad school that I’ve managed to raise it to a A- average.

    Oh, I guess I should make a topical point instead of solely engaging in navel gazing… As Malcolm Gladwell discusses in, “Outliers,” the direction one is pushed into from a young age has a massive impact on where they end up. Ten-thousand hours is the basic time investment for competency in a field, so decisions made as early as kindergarden do have a cascading effect into adulthood. The only reason I stayed in physics for so long with so much negative feedback is that I’m tremendously stubborn.

  • Mike C

    So, if something doesn’t involve competition, it isn’t worth doing?

    I’m just trying to understand this.

    Yeah, I think that is pretty much it. I never really thought it about it but arguably one inherent aspect of males relating is the competitive dynamic, even amongst best friends.

    I remember when I was kid, my best friend and I had “titles”. We had a chess title, one on one basketball title, a HORSE basketball title. A lot of our joint activities was trying to win the title from each other.

    Regarding competition, grades, schooling, etc. when I was in 8th grade which was the 1986-87 school year, my science teacher reseated the class by rank order of previous test exam after every single test. The highest test score sat in the 1st seat in the front row while the lowest score sat in the last seat in the back row. I heard that he did this until sometime in the mid 90s when complaints forced him to stop doing this. Looking back and thinking about it, the competitive aspect I think was key to being the excellent student I was. I’ve probably got a bit of an ego, and even as a kid I took some pride in the public accolades that came win a high level of academic achievement. Hard to say for sure, but if I hadn’t gotten the attention for the “winning” aspect of it, I might not have been as motivated to achieve. It didn’t hurt that my Mom also paid me for getting certain grades. Getting on the A honor roll was a nice payday for a young kid/teenager

  • Damien Vulaume

    @VD:
    Also, I live in Europe.

    I hope that means in parts of Italy, or some still macho-à la-catholic way of dismissing women as pets in some areas still in full swing like in the Balkans….

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Justiz
    “I’ve got busy with an old flame”

    Je m’en doutais. :-)
    Welcome back, pal. Hope it went smoothlly. Great step forward, though, even if it doesn’t mean anything in the end. Old flames are great to talk to, but they are just that, old flames. The fire never lights up again, ou bien qui sait?…

  • Mike C

    I consider myself someone who has taken the Red Pill.

    FWIW, I’d say you are more of a Purple Pill taker :) You’ve incorporated aspects of the Red Pill but I’d say you retain many elements of the Blue Pill. Just one example would be the official life script of the twenty-something female. Just to be clear, I’m offering no judgement, just a description. Escoffier had an epic comment some time back on your effort to “synthesize” two different outlooks. That synthesis is a combination of Red and Blue which equals Purple.

    I support gender equity, and I have stated that female sexuality, as well as male sexuality, is neither good nor bad.

    I’m going to try again here despite our differences in communication style. I think many of the people YOU THINK think female sexuality is “bad” really don’t believe that. I don’t, and I could quote excerpts from Rollo where he explicitly states no moralistic judgement of female sexuality. Where many differ with you is NOT on the “goodness” and/or “badness” of female sexuality but on on the substantive issues on what actually is accurate reality. We’ll never agree on what exactly hypergamy is for example, and I don’t think hypergamy is “bad”. We’ll never resolve those differences but I wanted to point that out.

    Regarding “goodness” or “badness”, I think it is more accurate to think of either male or female sexuality like a gun or car. Intrinsically, there is no good or bad, it is how it is used and applied by that particular individual. A gun is “bad” in the hands of a psychopath shooting children, but it is “good” in the hands of a homeowner defending his family from an intruder. A car is “good” with a responsible driver driving his elderly mother to the grocery store. A car is “bad” being driven by a drunk driver. In my view, you seem to often interpret any criticism of particular behavior as equalling “female sexuality is bad”. Perhaps that is the NF thing at work with the tendency to jump from words on the page to the person’s motivation. As a side point, I noticed this was mentioned on another thread about NFs instinctively getting people. I don’t doubt this may be correct and useful from time to time, but I suspect just as often it leads to erroneous “gut instincts” about people. If I were an NF, I think I’d be careful to rely too heavily on this particular tool.

    Interestingly, I have been contacted several times with men in the Male Studies movement, Paul Elam, and a group fighting for the rights of divorced fathers. I was even asked to be on the board of one such organization. This is ironic, at least to me, and will no doubt surprise those who see me regularly vilified by MRA/Game bloggers and their readers.

    Couple of expressions come to mind. Politics makes strange bedfellows, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I think on some level you may still be surprised at some of the reactions out there (“regularly vilified”). Let me give you an example, and again this is descriptive not judgemental. In the stock market, stocks of shitty companies with a history of poor performance often don’t decline much on the next quarter’s bad results. It is already expected. It isn’t a surprise. However, a company with lofty expectations that has a bad quarter gets crushed, NOT because of the actual performance but because of the gap between actual performance and EXPECTATIONS. In terms of your overall body of work….again not judgemental, but descriptive I think you simply materially differed from a certain set of expectations.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Politics makes strange bedfellows, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

      Funny, that’s exactly what Roosh said about me a while back. I became the real enemy sometime after that.

  • Mike C

    The basic truth is that the Red Pill is fundamentally for men; it’s useless for most women. The Red Pill offers nothing that could make most women feel better about themselves and their options, it cannot give them more hope and self-confidence than they already have – in fact, it’s more likely to take it away. It’s basically nothing but a sh*t sandwich for them.

    I strongly disagree. For the woman who has a goal of a successful, happy relationship or marriage I think parts of the Red Pill are very useful. The Blue Pill stresses things like “independence” and “empowerment” and hey its OK if you want to be a aggressive ball-buster. Some man should love you for your bitchiness. The Red Pill says be feminine, be sweet and nurturing and yes maybe even just a tad “submissive” and you are more likely to find a lifetime mate willing to commit to you for the distance. BTW, I hate the word submissive in the context of intergender relations because it has a ton of pejorative baggage. I wish there was a different word that captured the gestalt of the dynamic.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Höllenhund/hellhound/chien de l’enfer:
    Picture the average, say, 26-year-old single Western woman. Average attractiveness, average intelligence, average schooling with average student debt. What does the Red Pill tell her? Is she prepared to hear it, to handle what it says about her condition? How is she supposed to act on that message even if she listens to it?

    Oh man, I’m sorry but you are so tiring. First, don’t say “western woman” please, for your experience seems to be limited to SOME american girls, whom I presume are the type I wouldn’t have touched with a barge pole. This right here is your mistake in the first place.
    Secondly, you don’t seem to accept the fact that girls have had their fair share of that “red pill” either in the first place?. If you want to see things eternally that one sided way and keep on spinning the wheels in your direction, well, you know, there is a brick wall right there waiting for you.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Damien V…”“les grandes ecoles”, from which EVERY SINGLE top politician or manager comes out of.”

    Here’s something Peter Drucker (Austrian, lived in Germany before coming to the US) wrote way back in 1969:

    “One thing it (modern society) cannot afford in education is the “elite institution” which has a monopoly on social standing, on prestige, and on the command positions in society and economy. Oxford and Cambridge are important reasons for the English brain drain. A main reason for the technology gap is the Grande Ecole such as the Ecole Polytechnique or the Ecole Normale. These elite institutions may do a magnificent job of education, but only their graduates normally get into the command positions. Only their faculties “matter.” This restricts and impoverishes the whole society…The Harvard Law School might like to be a Grande Ecole and to claim for its graduates a preferential position. But American society has never been willing to accept this claim…
It is almost impossible to explain to a European that the strength of American higher education lies in this absence of schools for leaders and schools for followers.”

    In my post here, I noted that “The “unwillingness of American society to accept this claim”…the claim of elite education as the primary gateway to power and wealth…has been greatly undercut since Drucker wrote.” The unwholesome division into “schools for leaders” and “schools for followers” may not be as binary as in some countries, but it is reaching unwholesome levels.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Mike C, “I noticed this was mentioned on another thread about NFs instinctively getting people. I don’t doubt this may be correct and useful from time to time, but I suspect just as often it leads to erroneous “gut instincts” about people. If I were an NF, I think I’d be careful to rely too heavily on this particular tool.”

    Actually, different NFs have different dominant functions through which they view the world/judge others. I believe INFJs tend to get better “gut instinct” judgements. According to one site, “INFJs may well have the clearest insights of all the types into the motivations of others, for good and for evil.”

    ENFJs’s dominant function is Extraverted Feeling (same as ESFJs), and INFJs’s dominant function is Introverted iNtuition. Guess who the other type that has dominant function as Introverted iNtuition? It’s actually INTJ.

    http://www.typelogic.com/fa.html

    Here is a more in-depth functional analysis:

    ENFJ:

    Extraverted Feeling rules the ENFJ’s psyche. In the sway of this rational function, these folks are predisposed to closure in matters pertaining to people, and especially on behalf of their beloved. As extraverts, their contacts are wide ranging. Face-to-face relationships are intense, personable and warm.

    INFJ:

    INFJs readily grasp the hidden psychological stimuli behind the more observable dynamics of behavior and affect. Their amazing ability to deduce the inner workings of the mind, will and emotions of others gives INFJs their reputation as prophets and seers. Unlike the confining, routinizing nature of introverted sensing, introverted intuition frees this type to act insightfully and spontaneously as unique solutions arise on an event by event basis.

    If you’ll notice, I never attributed those motivations to you or other guys. My “judgers” are very active, but I don’t feel the same way that Susan does toward you, because I think (although I could be wrong) I have a clearer read on you. I basically never read malice in your intentions.

  • Senior Beta

    Great post. Like Andrew went to an all boys (Catholic boarding school) with real negative social lessons that took years to grow out of. The discipline was brutal, but prepared me for the military. And with no social life no choice but to focus on college prep courses. Made sure the kids all went to same sex schools so this stuff did not affect my clan. What a tragedy.

  • Smash the ZOG

    Hell, mistreatment of boys begins with forcible mutilation (circumcision removes the most densely-innervated portion of male genitalia, some 15sq. in. of adult skin).

  • Russ in Texas

    Drucker was prescient.

    Which is that from? My brother has a copy of the Ecological Vision, but I’ve not touched his other stuff — an obvious mistake on my part.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy6519

    On this thread, a few of the men have spoken about their school experiences. A common theme seems to revolve around their high test taking abilities, but low to relatively non-existent success with completing homework assignments. If this is a gender difference, I’m curious as to the reason for the difference.

    Why does it appear that men have a harder time/less drive to complete, and maintain, good grades for homework assignments?

    It’s not a man thing. It’s an INTJ thing. I’ve met one or two women who had the same problem. My own mother would have had the same problem, but was lucky enough that she got most of her education (all the way to a masters degree) in India, where homework was completely optional and did not count towards the final grade.

  • INTJ

    To be sure, though, my mother is an INFJ with a highly developed tertiary Ti function.

  • Anonymous age 70

    Things have not changed a lot. I graduated from high school in 1960, in a Midwestern rural town. I was by far the best math student in that school, but there was no money for college. My son got (some of) my math abilities and is a math research professor.

    We had a small advanced math class. For that year, I did no homework at all, not once. When we came into the classroom, I would look at the book a minute, then the teacher and I would help those who needed it, while those who didn’t need it, quietly talked or read books for fun.

    At the end of the semester, the teacher told me he had problems with my grade. If he graded me by my homework, I would get an F. If he graded me by my knowledge of math, I’d get an A because I knew the topic better than he. He gave me a B.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy

    A common theme seems to revolve around their high test taking abilities, but low to relatively non-existent success with completing homework assignments. If this is a gender difference, I’m curious as to the reason for the difference.

    Incidentally, my husband is a bad test taker. He told me that math actually did not come easily to him, but he used his intuition and other abilities to become good at it. He is a much better programmer because his linguistic abilities are superior to his mathematical abilities. He would joke that he was the only mathematician who couldn’t do basic arithmetic.

    He has very good discipline that he developed through music (practicing for guitar) and sports (mountain climbing, camping, martial arts). That is part of the reason why he was able to do well academically. He wasn’t an ace-top student, and he still dislikes menial work, but he is still the type to be able to slog through it if he has to, and if he sees that it leads to an end goal.

    Mike C

    I strongly disagree. For the woman who has a goal of a successful, happy relationship or marriage I think parts of the Red Pill are very useful.

    Yep. Athol Kay’s blog is exhibit A of this. Lots of women have taken the Red Pill and rave about it.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @ David Foster:
    Do you think Teddy Kennedy would have liked to see an environment in which he and certain other members of his family would have had to answer for their actions in the criminal courts in the same way that ordinary individuals would, without benefit from connections, media influence, and expensive lawyers? (…) The reality is that “progressivism” is not in any way about equality, it is rather about shifting the distribution of power and wealth in a way that benefits those with certain kinds of educational credentials and certain kinds of connections.

    Standing ovation! And brilliantly put. I’m also glad to see that as an example to counter this so called “progressive libertarianism the American way”, you chose that seemingly untouchable because media-genic myth of the Kennedys as an example.
    Among other things, “Chappaquiddick incident” anyone?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien, @david foster

      Have you read Black Water by Joyce Carol Oates? It is an extraordinary small novel, as told by a young woman who goes off a bridge in the company of the Senator one night on Chappaquiddick. I’ll never forget it, and how it brought that incident to life in my mind.

      17 years after I read that novel my daughter interned for Ted Kennedy in Wash DC. One of the tasks of interns was to catalogue and respond to mail from constituents. She told me that every day, even in 2009, Kennedy’s office got dozens of letters from people holding him accountable for Chappaquiddick.

      Also, here’s a tidbit that will annoy American taxpayers: After she got offered the internship, but while she was still away at school, my husband and I were hosting a dinner party one night. Close to midnight, we saw blue sirens spinning through the window. A moment later a State Trooper rang our bell. I was terrified – isn’t this what they do when a family member has been killed on the highway? He tipped his hat, handed my husband a manila envelope and walked back to his vehicle. Baffled, we opened the envelope. It was the United States Senate Dress Code for Summer Interns.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Here’s the thing about the Red Pill. Women mostly get it already. Every concept of Game I’ve shared with my focus group members has elicited sheepish nods and giggles. Not one has ever claimed to be invulnerable to Game or denied that dominance is sexy. All agree that “chicks dig jerks.” And all agree that a guy becomes a whole lot more attractive if he makes them wonder a bit.

        Women have their own red pill to swallow. Learning that men mindf*ck total strangers on their commute even while happily partnered is nothing short of devastating. It’s also not much fun to learn that men, unlike women, really care mostly about how you look, and there’s not much you can do to boost your SMV or MMV once you’ve maximized your physical potential.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, did Lena Dunham’s Obama commercial affect your view of her at all?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, did Lena Dunham’s Obama commercial affect your view of her at all?

      I was disgusted by it, but I cut her some slack. She’s been under constant scrutiny. The truth is, she was raised by an activist feminist mother. It’s one of the reasons I find her honesty about casual sex so surprising and refreshing. But she’s not without baggage, and I believe she was quite alarmed by the initial backlash from feminists to Girls.

      She’s my son’s age, and he’s kind of still figuring it out. 26 is now considered the end of “extended adolescence.”

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Russ in Texas…the Drucker quote is from his book The Age of Discontinuity. Some of it is dated, but at least 80% of it is very applicable today.

  • epoche*

    Susan it may sound sexist but a lot of men just dont like being around women when they work. I wouldnt want to go work for corporate america because I am too plainspoken and I dont like being around women in that sort of environment. I have also seen more than one man’s life destroyed by a false accusation of sexual harassment.

  • Damien Vulaume

    I haven’t read “Black water” but pretty much admired Joyce Carol Oates’ essay “On boxing”. One of those remarkable “American women” along the line of Flanery O’ Connor or Carson McCullers, to name a few, and much less publicized than, at random, very predictable and uninteresting personas such as Susan Sontag or Elza Fitzgerald, as different as they were.

    It was the United States Senate Dress Code for Summer Interns.
    LOL! Oh noooooooo! In the 21st century?

  • Damien Vulaume

    And all agree that a guy becomes a whole lot more attractive if he makes them wonder a bit.

    There you go. It is all there in a nutshell. And the guy in question doesn’t necessarily have to fit in any of those categories everyone constantly mentions here, such as Alpha, high smv, rich, PUA, not PUA, manwhore, beta, delta or god knows what else.
    Women don’t want to be understood, but swept away, at least when it comes to the seduction game.

  • Russ in Texas

    Never understood what people saw in Sonntag — she only had one schtick, and that was “whoever you are, you’re not cool enough to be me.” Incredibly vapid.

    Understanding the woman DOES make it easier to sweep her away, though.

  • SayWhaat

    Women have their own red pill to swallow. Learning that men mindf*ck total strangers on their commute even while happily partnered is nothing short of devastating. It’s also not much fun to learn that men, unlike women, really care mostly about how you look, and there’s not much you can do to boost your SMV or MMV once you’ve maximized your physical potential.

    Yep.

    Was at drinks with my co-workers tonight, and one of them (male) was talking about how he is “seeing” this one girl who was in the picture when he was dating his (now ex) girlfriend. My (female) worker and I asked him why he continued to see his girlfriend if he was already into a girl who had already confessed her feelings for him, and who he perceived to be a better fit. He was like, “well, I was moving to NYC and so was my girlfriend, and she (other girl) was not.” My female co-worker and I were like, “that is SUCH a male thing to do.” What a terrible thing to do to someone you’re dating, knowing that you’d rather be with someone else in particular. SMH.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Russ
    About Sontag: Yeah you’re totally right. We call those types a “bas bleu”.

    Understanding the woman DOES make it easier to sweep her away, though.

    It all depends how you go about it: A guy wanting to seduce them by pretending to “wanting to understand their emotionality, difference, or whatever” without having some kind of “presentable way about himself” is a guy that invariably breaks his teeth on women’s rocks.
    But of course, having a genuine, curious and respectful interest in them is always the first condition.

  • Mike M.

    Hmm…I keep wondering if the issue is gender, or the appallingly poor education provided to gifted kids.

    For a child who is running a genius-level IQ, Government schools are a 12-year prison sentence. Many of your classmates are idiots. So are some of the teachers. And every class is taught at a snail’s pace. Boredom leads to trouble, trouble easily avoided by an education paced to the student.

  • Anne

    @ VD
    “I suspect you are missing the point. They don’t have to sit down with the work to know it is tedious. Moreover, presentations and group work are exactly the sort of thing that don’t appeal to men in the slightest. Seriously, group work? That’s enough to give most men the willies; we hear it as “so you do the work and we’ll sit over here and talk while you’re at it”. Moreover, it can’t be a question of not excelling when the top men are actually more likely to drop out and refuse to do the makework than their less capable, but more feminized counterparts.”

    I hate group work and I hate homework. Over time I have gotten more lazy but up until 19 I worked like crazy, mostly because of my parents demands. Women find this stuff just as ‘tedious’ as men do. My hypothesis is that women do, in a way, face more pressure than men. Not that they are expected to have better careers, but boys have more elbow-room to be lazy and ‘difficult’ than girls growing up (whom all over are expected to be more disciplined).
    Group work is annoying for many reasons (too many people, scheduling meetings in your spare time, some slack-offs and some kiss-asses), I probably don’t need to list all. All the same, I do the work. I won’t graduate from a very expensive degree with a terrible grade.
    What I’m trying to figure out is what is the reason men perform so badly academically these days. It’s not the form of studies – men did excellent 50 years ago, when it was all reading and repeating. It’s not teachers benefiting girls. At least not from my experience. I was never encouraged to excel – if I was finished with my maths assignments early (I found maths easy), I was always assigned to help the boys. They never gave me new assignments, or encouraging me to advance.
    From my POV, it seems a lot of men have just given up and are now blaming the system that it doesn’t “suit their learning style”. But the system suited their fathers and grandfathers. I’m sure most men aren’t just terrible slack-offs, but I have yet to see any proof.

    (Please forgive any English mistakes)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Personally I think joining such an organization might be a good thing for the organization and yourself.

    You are kidding right? Every time Susan gets and “unearned achievement” her detractors attack her harder and in group and try their best to get her to quit altogether. Joining directly and organization will be bad for her and I’m sure many men will quit if she gets there like the recent Spearhead emigration, some men are very “go big or go home” in this matter, just my two cents.

    Re: school, the smart kids quickly figure out that the system is easily gamed.

    And realize that reading during class and talking to people is more interesting than that :p

    I saw that some things didn’t yield results, so to me they weren’t worth doing.
    or the results you need…

    British author Doris Lessing, circa 2001:

    The Golden Notebook is a great reflection on how disappointing feminism was and is.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The Golden Notebook is a great reflection on how disappointing feminism was and is.

      Lessing never intended to be a feminist, and once The Golden Notebook was embraced as a feminist tract, she spent of lot of time distancing herself and criticizing feminism.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Anne
    it seems a lot of men have just given up and are now blaming the system that it doesn’t “suit their learning style”. But the system suited their fathers and grandfathers.

    Cough-cough, in my country the system that suited my father and grand father was entirely different than the one I came to be involved in some 50 years laters and a few “revolutions in between”. For one, school was segregated between the two genders, On the left girl schools, and on the right boy schools, all the way up to the bacchalauréat. That’s just for starters…

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    WRT your focus group and the red pill:

    1, since they get it, I suppose the question is whether they like it. Would they prefer things be another way?

    2, If they get it, who is preaching the blue pill that surrounds us like the air?

    3, A version of #2. If they get it, and they like it, or if they don’t have a choice, where is the encouragement–outside the relationship–for men to take the red pill? Is letting guys find it, or not, a filter?

    I’m sure a lot of guys would be, by nature, at least a bit redpillish, except they’ve been told go blue so often and from so many directions that they go blue. Maybe the filter is for guys who are not subject to the preaching, which would go from the independent to the sociopath.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      1, since they get it, I suppose the question is whether they like it. Would they prefer things be another way?

      I’m sure they would like it if they could know that their boyfriends no longer find other women attractive. But they’re aware of reality, and they don’t appear to hold it against men. If anything, they feel better prepared for intrasexual competition and possible mate poaching.

      If they get it, who is preaching the blue pill that surrounds us like the air?

      To be honest, I’ve never understood who these women are who lie to men about what women want. I personally have never encountered women advising men to eagerly present chocolates and flowers for big success. My brothers and I grew up with a pretty clear understanding, I think. As have my own kids. Sure, there were moments of failure as they sorted out their own SMV and learned via trial and error what works with the other sex and what turns them off.

      People often say the culture promotes the blue pill but I think there are plenty of red pill elements in the culture. Sex and the City is about as Red Pill as it gets.

      Feminists promote female interests, obviously, but even there the nastiest feminist Marcotte will be quick to tell you that supplicating nice guys need to step off.

      A version of #2. If they get it, and they like it, or if they don’t have a choice, where is the encouragement–outside the relationship–for men to take the red pill? Is letting guys find it, or not, a filter?

      As you are no doubt aware, most people are ignorant of the concept of the red pill. The vast majority of marriages do not send men over to Athol’s. The 83% of educated couples who stay married have no need to radically alter their way of thinking. It’s working, and I imagine there’s a spectrum of formulas for success – from male dominant to SAHD, with most people in an egalitarian marriage.

  • J

    1)The requirement for public school teachers to attend “education schools,” the curriculum and general environment of which is not exactly appealing to independent-spirited and intellectually-curious people.

    I think teachers do need to understand educational psychology, stats and some of the other things they learn in ed school. OTOH, I think that high school teachers and above should have some other education/work experience first. Some of the best teachers are those who come to it as a second profession.

    2)The extreme procedurilization and top-down micromanagement of public schools, combined with pure seniority-based pay and promotion (which has plenty to do with the teachers unions) does not attract ambitious and independent people.

    Teaching in general does not attract the ambitious. Other than school administration, there’s no place to advance to. Teachers like to be king or queen of their own little domains. Elementary school teachers tend to be nurturers.

    3)The use of lawsuits and other methods to disempower teachers from getting bad actors out of their classrooms, thereby contributing in many cases to dismal and even dangerous work environments for teachers.

    Absolutely true.

  • J

    Oh my goodness, do not put my darling Lena Dunham in the same category as those terrible reality shows!

    Have you heard that Donald Glover will be playing Lena’s new love interest? I’m miffed. I hope that this isn’t just her knuckling under to pressure about the show being too white UMC. I also want to see where Hannah and Adam are going, so this better not be the end of that storyline.

    I was disgusted by it, but I cut her some slack. She’s been under constant scrutiny.

    Ditto.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Dunham’s add a key black character is not surprising, but I think making him a love interest is far more realistic than suddenly adding a fifth friend, which is what I was afraid she’d do.

      I also want to see where Hannah and Adam are going, so this better not be the end of that storyline.

      He’s liberally represented in the Season 2 trailer, so I think we’ll be seeing a lot of him. Also, Adam Driver is one of the best things about the show – she has to find a way to keep him in the story.

  • J

    17 years after I read that novel my daughter interned for Ted Kennedy in Wash DC.

    Very cool.

    She told me that every day, even in 2009, Kennedy’s office got dozens of letters from people holding him accountable for Chappaquiddick.

    Good. I hated Ted Kenneddy and have little use for the rest of them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      17 years after I read that novel my daughter interned for Ted Kennedy in Wash DC.

      Very cool.

      Even though she was only there for one summer, she came away with the most amazing stories! John Kerry hitting on interns, Ted’s special “lair” in the building, complete with large bed and shower, confidential handoffs of material in prearranged meeting places like small alleyways in Georgetown. Unfortunately, that was the summer just before Ted died, so her class of interns was the first that never met him. But the experience was a good one. She got it on her own, too, with no connections. It’s obviously untrue that all those slots go to the kids of donors, etc.

  • DB69

    Father of two boys and a girl here. I haven’t followed the whole thread, but I think Sassy asked the operative question: why do boys, who are demonstrably intelligent, fail to perform in the classroom setting? From my own experience, its the academic testing, large classes, and seat work. Boys tend not to learn by language, but by doing, so when a teacher says “x,” many boys are picking up only a portion of what she is saying. Large classes add to distractability. My oldest boy is ADHD (I was too), and I was “suggested” by my youngest boy’s teacher that medication may help at our first Kindergarten parent conference. We of course ignored her. We are told our daughter is the perfect student. I have terrible memories from third grade of my teacher dumping my desk in front of the class. It’s even worse now, with accelerated academic standards. Most parents know that boys tend to develop later, but the system is so rigged against late-bloomers that I shudder for the next generation. I came into my own in early high school when I learned coping techniques, and I ended up going to Ivies for both college and law school. I never bought in to it all. This irritated and attracted my girlfriends at the same time. Very few of them knew my darkest memories from that tough time. My wife does appreciate my assertiveness with the IEP meeting requests, and constant monitoring of the school environment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DB69

      My oldest boy is ADHD (I was too), and I was “suggested” by my youngest boy’s teacher that medication may help at our first Kindergarten parent conference. We of course ignored her. We are told our daughter is the perfect student.

      Good for you, it sounds like you’re on top of it. You may enjoy a story I’ve shared from my own kids’ kindergarten experience. Same teacher, radically different approach to girls vs. boys:

      When my son entered Kindergarten, he was assigned a teacher who was young and extremely popular with parents. We were delighted. During the course of that year, he was sent to the principal’s office, and I was called, for all of the following offenses:

      “Showing off” his ability to read early (having taught himself via Sesame Street).

      Saying the word penis on the playground.

      Having “ants in his pants” (which led to a staff meeting about whether he might have ADD).

      Hitting another boy over the head with an empty plastic lunchbox during an argument (Discipline for this offense is appropriate, but it was implied that this act revealed real pathology).

      Two years later, our daughter was assigned to the same teacher, despite our request to the contrary. During the course of her kindergarten experience, I was informed of the following:

      During a particularly hard day with a lot of peer conflict, my daughter asked whether the class might take a break from the lesson and spend the afternoon working together on a harmony mural. Her teacher got choked up on the telephone sharing this.

      During gym class, she asked whether she might stay out of the dodgeball game to play catch with a boy who was confined to a wheelchair. More claims of saintly behavior.

      She initiated a project in the class called Ornaments for the Homeless. Kids made simple ornaments, and then we got a bunch of the families to sell these in front of a supermarket one Saturday, raising $125 for a local shelter. The teacher arranged for the Boston Globe to write a story about my daughter, and the shelter threw a party in her honor. That project continues at the school to this day, fifteen years later.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Mike M. wrote:

    Hmm…I keep wondering if the issue is gender, or the appallingly poor education provided to gifted kids.

    For a child who is running a genius-level IQ, Government schools are a 12-year prison sentence. Many of your classmates are idiots. So are some of the teachers. And every class is taught at a snail’s pace. Boredom leads to trouble, trouble easily avoided by an education paced to the student.

    We have quite the cluster of intellectual men here at HuS. I’m often concerned that any sort of male consensus doesn’t represent the male majority of society as a whole. Men who go looking for answers on the internet likely have a reason for doing so.

  • stg58/Animal Mother

    165 comments and only one concerning homeschooling?

    Parents, consider homeschooling your son, especially if the school is blatantly crushing his spirit and masculinity.

  • Deli

    2 J
    Well, no magic pill here – I just do not let any piece of work leave my deck without checking it twice. Literally.
    Which means that if I write a 100-page presentation – there must always be a final run through, when I read it all again, even if it already makes me sick to the stomach. Sometimes I would do something very quickly and be very proud of how it turned out – this is EXACTLY the time, when I tell myself “Ok, me, we’ve been through this before. Yes, we are proud of this work, we felt inspired doing it – this is exactly why we have to check it. Because you know we don’t bother with little shit when we get inspired. So let’s get to it”

    And it sucks to check something, you brain says is perfect anyway, but it has to be done – because that work never ever turned out to be perfect in the end :)
    The biggest bummer for me was to spell-check and rhyme-check my amateur poetry. Really killed ALL the mood from writing a piece … and always improved it a hundred-fold.

    That makes me a relatively slow worker. Because of that I made the following my number 1 priority in any task: finding a smallest acceptable deliverable that get’s the task done.
    Does it have to be a 100 page report, or can I be done in 65 pages? Can bullshit be cut out of it? I dry my work up ’cause the less volume of work I produce – the less space for mistakes :)

    It has not been (up to date) ever attributed to laziness, which for me is the sign, that my management gets it :)

    And then there are little specific things, like when you spell check big texts, you have to read them backwards (to detach from the meaning of the sentences and concentrate on spelling of individual words) and that your excels should be self-explanatory and should not have hard-coded formulas.
    Stuff like that.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Mr O was my LO-teacher in Standard 7 (grade 9) He also taught us geography. What made him a bit different from the other teachers, as we discovered on our first day with him, was when we seated ourselves in his class, and he walked in and said :

    “All of you get out !”

    So the entire class walked out. (We were all boys.)

    “Stand in a line !” he shouted.

    We all formed a line in front of the class.

    “Next time you lot only enter my class with MY PERMISSION ! DO YOU HEAR ME !”

    “Yes sir”, we murmured.

    He stared us all down, until the atmosphere became uncomfortable.

    And then he grabbed hold of an old ping-pong bat and said :

    “And now you lot enter one-by-one.”

    First was Aubrey. The class captain. He was elected out of sheer humor. The rugby-players made sure of that.

    “Buk !” (Afrikaans for bend-over)

    Aubrey bends over. Mr O stands next to Aubrey. Mr O looks at Aubrey. Aubrey looks at Mr O. Aubrey lifts up his blazer.

    *Thwack*

    Aubrey sits down. Aubrey has a pokerface.

    Oh shit.

    The veterans know the deal: There are thirty boys in the class. There is one teacher. Quietly move to the back of the line.

    But not Gerry-the-Genius. He was no veteran. He was sommer next.

    “But sir !” , as he bends over. But he doesn’t protest too much. Gerry-the-Genius is a nice boy.

    *Thwack*

    Pokerface.

    And then it was my turn. I was curious. When you’re hit with a rottang there is a delay between the first shot, and onset of the pain.

    That did not happen with the ping-pong bat. Nosirree. The pain was there immediately.

    I had a pokerface too.

    Funny thing is Dan was last in the line. Dan never passed a test in his life.

    Yet in Mr O’s class he outscored Gerry-the-Genius in some tests.

    And we all grew to love Mr O.

    And when we forgot to enter the class without his permission, well, it was the ping-pong-tango again.

    (Wish I could write more. But I’m driving 800 miles today.)

  • Kathy

    Hey Just 1Z?
    Nice to know you are still around.. Miss your incisive and humorous comments. :)

    BTW.. Susan Very good thoughtful post . Timely.

  • http://@ Iggles

    We have quite the cluster of intellectual men here at HuS. I’m often concerned that any sort of male consensus doesn’t represent the male majority of society as a whole. Men who go looking for answers on the internet likely have a reason for doing so.

    I agree. There are a lot of male INTJs here (which are 2-6%), but S (the Sensing type) makes up 65-72% of all men.

    Overall the most common male types are ISTJ (14-19%) and ESTJ (10-12%).

    Source: http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm

  • pvw

    Hi, Susan, this is a great essay! My young male students are in the age group of your son, not all, but a fair number, and I find myself wondering about some of the men’s observations here about their early schooling and what I’m seeing at this level–college and graduate school students.

    I can understand the sense of “going through the motions” in the early years of schooling, but atthis level, it seems there would be a greater sense of control ie., in choosing classes and majors. But some do seem to be “going through the motions” as well. Very sad. I use a discussion method primarily (especially in my small classes), and here I’m thinking of my intellectual history class, where we do close and critical readings of our texts, and I often pair readings from competing political perspectives in order to fine-tune our critiques. So it is important that they do the readings in order to participate in our in-depth discussions.

    I am fully aware, from teaching my undergraduates, that many do the bare minimum in terms of the reading assignments, and that is not as helpful. I am looking for their ability to read the texts, critique and understand them and then apply them to new facts and circumstances. So on an exam,I might give them a historical text without telling them the time period and without any identifying information. They should be able to develop a cogent analysis and critique of the text based upon what they have previously read. In addition, I might draft an exam question that raises something that I emphasized in class; so if they are not in class and are not doing the reading, and especially if they are not paying attention, they will miss out.

    As for their research projects, I tell them “the sky is the limit,” whatever they want to work on, I’ll help them formulate a research question and a research plan. One of the best papers this past fall was by a young engineer interested in exploring the implications of some new development in patent law/policy.

    So some of my best students are young men. Numbers of them are quite capable of this type of learning, while numbers of the young women seem more incapable of stepping outside themselves and their own ideological views (especially when it comes to feminism).

    As for complaints, Susan, from those seem to think you are too much on “team woman,” I’m somewhat surprised at that. Are you supposed to deny or reject all your experiences as a woman and adopt a totally masculine view? I’m all in favor of critique, but the women who seem to adopt the types of views that manosphere types seem to like, seem, in my view, to be “off,” ie., very contemptuous of femaleness, almost like the mangina types who seem to be contemptuous of maleness.

    I think it was MikeC who mentioned that submissiveness in the red pill context is a difficult word today because of its pejorative implication. Submissiveness in and of itself is not wrong, and it is useful for both partners to consider its significance in marriage, but the men (and women) who seem most stridently in favor of it always seem to be the ones who are the most contemptuous of women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I use a discussion method primarily (especially in my small classes), and here I’m thinking of my intellectual history class, where we do close and critical readings of our texts, and I often pair readings from competing political perspectives in order to fine-tune our critiques. So it is important that they do the readings in order to participate in our in-depth discussions.

      When I was in business school, there were subjects I found tedious and boring, like accounting. I confess I never did the problem sets, I was bored to tears by them. But the classes where discussion was essential – the case studies – I loved those and I prepared well for them by doing the readings, analyzing the case, etc. It would have been impossible to learn anything in those classes without doing the assignments. Plus it feels crummy to sit in a discussion with nothing valuable to add.

      Some kinds of homework are practice, more or less, and some kids need practice more than others. Other kinds of assignments are a prerequisite to the learning that actually occurs during class time. A kid who blows those off is wasting his or her tuition money.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    There are lots of Asian boys who do well in school. Maybe because the Asian “style” of encouraging kids to do well academically is inherently competitive? I know that when I was younger and attending school in China, everybody knew everybody else’s grades. Test scores were also very public. When I was applying to college, lots of stories were floated around about so-and-so Asian kid who got into some prestigious university.

    I also went to a “preppy” high school. I knew the SAT scores of most of my classmates. There was also a wall every year of all the seniors and the college they would be attending. There were honors and AP classes that were truly challenging, and the school was small enough (my graduating class was less than 70 people) that teachers could give individualized attention. The college graduate rate of kids who went to the school was something like 95%+.

    But that school was very, very expensive. I got scholarship and financial aid to go to it, but I think I got a better education there than even at Northwestern. I was taught critical thinking skills that the large lectures at college simply didn’t.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    i’m totally linking this Tia.

  • VD

    I hate group work and I hate homework. Over time I have gotten more lazy but up until 19 I worked like crazy, mostly because of my parents demands. Women find this stuff just as ‘tedious’ as men do.

    You might. Most women don’t. My female employees will quite happily spend half a day entering numbers into computers. My male employees need the threat of an imminent ISO 9000 audit to get them to put a label on something.

    Parents, consider homeschooling your son, especially if the school is blatantly crushing his spirit and masculinity.

    Well, my thoughts on the matter are sufficiently known that I thought I’d leave it to others: The Yellow Bus

  • OffTheCuff

    Women don’t understand game, I find. If you sanitize it, clip out all the harsh or nasty parts, and then ask them if they like a confident man (who is assumed to attractive) they will agree it to that, often grudgingly. But most of the time, they act like this:

    Crazy chick: “More so….women are told from birth that it’s their *job* to be weak. I remember in church youth group, the youth pastor would ask “the guys” to help move tables together. I remember going off on him, and moving a table by my-damn-self and asking why he assumes that women can’t lift a folding table. I embarrassed the crap out of him. My brother told me that I was disrespectful because “you don’t speak to the youth pastor that way,” and I responded, “He disrespected *ALL* women, and I’m sick of it.””

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/844831-why-are-so-many-women-scared-of-weights-lmao?hl=Pastor+table&page=4#posts-12685042

    Let’s review – the pastor said nothing to her, but asked the boys to move the tables. In her victimy little narcisstic mind, interprets it as being TOLD that she is weak. Then she blows up at the pastor and is proud of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Women don’t understand game, I find. If you sanitize it, clip out all the harsh or nasty parts, and then ask them if they like a confident man (who is assumed to attractive) they will agree it to that, often grudgingly. But most of the time, they act like this:

      Crazy chick

      How is your anecdote an illustration that women don’t understand Game? It seems like a non sequitir.

      I find that most young women know a fair amount about Game. They grew up with shows like The Pickup Artist on MTV, and most young men have read The Game and are at least aware of the basics of Game.

      If I throw out a Game term when I am with young women, e.g. push-pull, neg, preselection, everyone knows precisely what I mean. They’re also well aware of techniques like hitting on the less attractive friend to get the hottie’s attention, and that guys “do cocky” or run asshole Game to come across as dominant. They’ve all had to decipher real assholes from Pretend Assholes, and they’ve all got guy friends they refer to as alpha or beta.

      Game is mainstream now, and women got a look at the memo.

  • http://endofwomen.blogspot.in namae nanka

    same happens in UK, GCSE got coursework and girls got ahead on all subjects even PE, nevermind the grade inflation.
    They dropped it in 2010 in maths, and boys finally outscored. By a little margin.

    Same in Sweden:

    http://www.thelocal.se/31962/20110210/#.UPAG1NV5d0I

    they also have something akin to the SAT on which boys outscore girls, apparently that is also derided as sexist test, even though fewer boys take it just like SAT.

  • Just1Z

    @Damien
    c’est l’amour du logiciel, chui geek…un petit blague

  • Just1Z

    @Kathy – glad you’re well. a little humour for you…

    !!Amazon marketing scam!!

    I was looking for a little adult (*ahem*) recreational ‘reading’ material, thought I’d look for something vintage (whalebone / steel underwear etc). I heard of a book about hot stuff set in a victorian era kitchen – cool! It was said to be set in Boston, which added little colonial spice to the mix. The title suggested rural escapades of a fruity nature as well – double plus good. So I bought it; ‘Fannie Farmer’. I magine my disappointment when it arrived ( http://www.amazon.com/Fannie-Farmer-1896-Cook-Book/dp/1616085436 ).

  • Just1Z

    A close female aquantance advised my of similar issues which arose when she was looking for something to ‘entertain’ after she finished 50 shades. She likes sailers, so she was looking for something with a maritime ambience. She ended up being disappointed by http://www.amazon.com/Free-Willy/dp/B000HL27N0/ She won’t be buying the rest of the series…

  • Maggie

    ” it seems a lot of men have just given up and are now blaming the system that it doesn’t “suit their learning style”. But the system suited their fathers and grandfathers.”

    I’ve wondered about this a lot. School was just as ‘boring’ in the past, yet the boys performed as well as the girls, even at my school where there were no male teachers, only nuns.

    My son, who is quiet and well-behaved, followed the now-common script, missing assignments and barely getting by on good tests scores. We hear this story over and over.

    No Child Left Behind hasn’t improved things for boys. It’s too bad that none of our presidents in the past couple of years has had daughters. Imagine the attention this issue would get if Presidents Bush or Obama had a son struggling in school.

  • Abbot

    “Masculinity, even normal maleness, is being punished in schools from a very young age.”

    Per natural selection, there are a few guys who beat the odds, make it through that gauntlet and emerge masculine. Has that pattern contributed to the current sexual Hypergamy Culture or Harem Culture?

  • Abbot

    ‘Their attitudes toward learning were always this way. But it didn’t show up in educational attainment like it does today because of all the factors that previously discouraged women’s participation in the labor force.’

    http://anniemurphypaul.com/2013/01/why-do-girls-do-better-in-school/#

    .

  • Ted D

    Susan – “It’s working, and I imagine there’s a spectrum of formulas for success – from male dominant to SAHD, with most people in an egalitarian marriage.”

    So is it your theory that the guys over at MMSL are the outliers? I’m genuinely curious, because in some ways that makes sense. In fact, it tends to jive with the fact that HUS has a very large collection of unicorns in the INTJ population. Maybe it isn’t so much that all boys/men were lied to their entire lives, but that certain personality types took the standard messages given to them in VERY different ways that resulted in them being super-betaized. I’m just spitballing here so feel free to shoot it full of wholes. (not that anyone here needs an excuse for that anyway. LOL)

    What I’m getting at is: perhaps it is not so much that society is pushing a Blue Pill mentality and men must find the Red Pill, perhaps some men simply DO NOT get the messages sent to them the same way the vast majority do. I need to chew on this a bit, because I’ve seen clear examples in my own life where a message was delivered to others and myself, and I ended up at a completely different conclusion than the other folks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      Maybe it isn’t so much that all boys/men were lied to their entire lives, but that certain personality types took the standard messages given to them in VERY different ways that resulted in them being super-betaized.

      This is what I suspect. I wouldn’t call Athol’s readers outliers (an extreme deviation from the mean). He’s clearly struck a nerve with a sizable audience. The problems he addresses are real. I suspect, though, that they share certain traits or experiences, as we’ve discussed before. Lack of male role models or fathers growing up, feminist mother, and I would guess high religiosity. But that’s just conjecture on my part.

      Re what society is pushing, it seems to me that examples of female hypergamy run amok are regularly featured by TV and other media. All of the reality shows do this. There’s also a lot of praising of alpha douchebags on TV, or at least very manly men, e.g. Bear Grylls, Don Draper. I feel like the red pill is all around me, how can anyone miss it?

  • Ted D

    holes* – ugh.

  • Ion

    Hope

    “There are lots of Asian boys who do well in school. Maybe because the Asian “style” of encouraging kids to do well academically is inherently competitive?”

    Mildly unrelated, but it’s a middle class/upper class immigrant thing, from what I’ve seen. Caribbean, Indians, Arabs, and Asians all do pretty good, especially in math and science. And they have nothing in common culturally, other than that they come here with the intent of working hard and doing well as immigrants.

    If there was something particularly studious about asians, there’d be no poor asian bus boys, dry cleaning store workers, pedicure/salon workers, cab drivers, delivery workers, etc.,

    People from a higher class tend to do better, especially when they migrate. Globally, you’re likely to value education if your parents were educated (and middle class).

    Asians aren’t the only immigrants who do well, many of the “black americans” in college for example, have parents of caribbean decent. Here’s proof about how well African immigrants do too (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/black_immigrants_an_invisible.html if you find the article slanted, you can google the census data).

  • Esau

    Susan: ” I personally have never encountered women advising men to eagerly present chocolates and flowers for big success.”

    They certainly exist in fiction; by coincidence, here’s this past Wednesday’s “Liberty Meadows” daily comic:

    http://www.creators.com/comics/liberty-meadows/100776.html

    Do you really think these women exist only in fiction?

    Susan, again: ” I’ve never understood who these women are who lie to men about what women want.”

    So it would seem, then, that you’ve never heard any women, either in person or on TV, say anything like this:

    Men should be more romantic

    Men should do more of the housework and childcare

    Men are too arrogant and self-centered

    Men should be more emotionally expressive

    Men should spend less time childishly fooling around with their buddies and pay more attention to what their wives/girlfriends want

    Do I need to go on? Each of these kinds of statements — and the list can certainly be extended — corresponds directly to lies that men learn, and the effect is pervasive. I’ve been hearing a constant drumbeat of statements like these from all directions, from individuals and from the culture at large, for as long as I can remember. This is the blue-pill atmosphere that surrounds us, to the point where it may be hard to recognize for what it really is.

    This tangent appears somewhat OT, but it does wrap back to the original post. I have to say I think the post is quite well-done, moving and powerful; I’m just disappointed that no self-described feminists have (so far) chosen to stop by and engage.

    Susan notes the potentially long-term detrimental effects on boys who are penalized early for their masculine bent:

    Only the most female-acting boys are rewarded with a fair assessment. Cornwell notes that this practice may permanently affect a boy’s educational prospects.

    This is certainly an important point; but it also has a subtler flip side. The boys who do conform more to the “female-acting” ideal — peaceful cooperation, modesty, self-control, obedience to authority — are differentially praised and rewarded by the figures of authority, uniformly; and so they naturally will absorb the message that this is the “right” and “good” way to behave generally. It’s not a direct and simple lie, but it does put a boy in pretty poor stead for later heterosexual life to encourage and reinforce only his “female-acting” habits, even from pre-pubescent times.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Nice to see you in 2013 :)

      Men should be more romantic

      Men should do more of the housework and childcare

      Men are too arrogant and self-centered

      Men should be more emotionally expressive

      Men should spend less time childishly fooling around with their buddies and pay more attention to what their wives/girlfriends want

      That sounds like criticism of alpha males. Maybe that’s the apex fallacy at work here. When I hear women say things like this I think, “I’m glad I’m not married to someone like that.”

      Aren’t shows that feature alpha males cleaning up with women despite being guilty of all of the above instructive? Whether it’s Mad Men, How I Met Your Mother, The Sopranos, Sex and the City or most recently the show Girls, we see dominant and outcome-independent men scoring big with women and less dominant men getting dumped left and right.

      And it’s not just TV – Sandra Tsing Loh writing about her kitchen bitch husband, Elizabeth Gilbert writing about her husband’s devastation at her sudden departure, the most attractive leading men in films being extremely difficult to pin down (though they do always come around in the end). IDK, maybe it’s a question of what we focus on or choose to see.

      I’m just disappointed that no self-described feminists have (so far) chosen to stop by and engage.

      Me too. To give credit where it’s due, I first became aware of the study at the HuffPo women’s page. I believe it’s been crickets from the feminist ranks thus far.

      It’s not a direct and simple lie, but it does put a boy in pretty poor stead for later heterosexual life to encourage and reinforce only his “female-acting” habits, even from pre-pubescent times.

      That’s a great observation that may explain a lot. If a boy is rewarded by authority figures his entire life for docile behavior, how on earth is he going to respond when he gets his first inkling in 7th grade that girls like rebels? Even if he processes that and knows he is ill equipped to compete, how can he undo all those years of programming and reinforcement?

  • Ion

    “Hmm…I keep wondering if the issue is gender, or the appallingly poor education provided to gifted kids.”

    Personally, I think it’s a little bit of both. Some kids seem to show off when they’re bored or have picked up too quickly in classes. So the education system does seem to punish the slowest and fastest learners. But male children seem to be more likely to show off when they’re bored. And given the fact that boys rarely play outside as much as they used to…

    They just call this male trait of wanting to play “hyperactive” now, and slap some medication on it. So given that, gifted boys will be punished more than gifted girls.

  • JP

    “When I was in business school, there were subjects I found tedious and boring, like accounting. I confess I never did the problem sets, I was bored to tears by them.”

    This is pretty much my experience in both engineering and law classes, I was bored out of my mind.

    I wasn’t there to learn about engineering or law.

    In hindsight, I’m not sure why I wasted those 8 years of my life.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Learning that men mindf*ck total strangers on their commute even while happily partnered is nothing short of devastating.”

    Do you remember the vehement debate that took place awhile back in which some men were upset that their wives/girlfriends/SOs were mind fucking other men or very much wanted to. You came down quite firmly on the side of no mind police ergo not wrong.

    Where do you fall on this issue?

    “It’s also not much fun to learn that men, unlike women, really care mostly about how you look, and there’s not much you can do to boost your SMV or MMV once you’ve maximized your physical potential.”

    It takes an absolutely massive amount of dominance/prestige/charm/money for a man to shoot significantly above his SMV.

    I know a guy who is 5′ 2”, terminally ill and runs the tightest asshole game known to man. I can’t stand to be in the same room as him but women sleep with him.

    Without money and game he’d be dying alone.
    Personal anecdote over,

    Sub-Conclusion: It takes absolutely massive amounts of external factors to boost a mans SMV and therefore does not occur often. As easily witnessed by the fact that most pairs are assortative.

    Conclusion: A mans physical appearance plays a significant role into his SMV both directly and indirectly (not explained here).

    “and they’ve all got guy friends they refer to as alpha or beta.”

    I was under the impression women do not care about the attractiveness of their male friends, that is why they are, you know, friends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      You came down quite firmly on the side of no mind police ergo not wrong.

      Where do you fall on this issue?

      I am firmly of the belief that men wanting to f*ck other women is not wrong. I understand completely that this is a natural part of male sexuality. Obviously, I think actually doing it is wrong. But that’s not the point I was making. What I want men to understand is that for us, learning this truth is devastating (cultural differences notwithstanding). The idea of Mr. HUS having that urge on his morning commute makes me want to crawl under the covers and cry for the rest of the day. The only way I can cope with it is to think about it as little as possible and tell myself 1000 times that it is normal.

      Conclusion: A mans physical appearance plays a significant role into his SMV both directly and indirectly (not explained here).

      I agree, but men have fewer attraction cues, so a woman’s got to score very highly on what men care about. In contrast, women have a much more elaborate weighted formula. We also are well acquainted with “sexy ugly” as a concept, something I don’t think men experience.

      “and they’ve all got guy friends they refer to as alpha or beta.”

      I was under the impression women do not care about the attractiveness of their male friends, that is why they are, you know, friends.

      They don’t use these terms to describe physical attractiveness, but personality traits. Most women know plenty of alpha and beta guys they are not attracted to.

      Also, LJBFing doesn’t work just one way. Many women secretly crush on guy friends for years on end, knowing the guy would sleep with them perhaps, but is clearly not interested in dating them.

  • http://endofwomen.blogspot.in namae nanka

    “From my POV, it seems a lot of men have just given up and are now blaming the system that it doesn’t “suit their learning style”. But the system suited their fathers and grandfathers. I’m sure most men aren’t just terrible slack-offs, but I have yet to see any proof.”

    are you kidding me? grades didn’t use to figure in who went to college, why do they do now?

    http://isteve.blogspot.in/2012/02/is-white-black-cognitive-gap-smaller-in.html?showComment=1329042827517#c8082781119501273974

    angry harry has many articles relating to it:

    http://www.angryharry.com/esStopHelpingBoys.htm

    “The special efforts made by schools to steer more girls into advanced math and science classes came after powerful advocacy groups embraced the problem. But Gurian and other advocates for boys say they run into resistance from educators who point to males’ success in the workforce as proof that advocacy for boys is unnecessary.”

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-08-28-our-view_x.htm

    wage gap lies do have another use besides garnering votes.

  • Sai

    I enjoyed some of these anecdotes more than I think I should have.

    “The basic truth is that the Red Pill is fundamentally for men; it’s useless for most women. The Red Pill offers nothing that could make most women feel better about themselves and their options, it cannot give them more hope and self-confidence than they already have – in fact, it’s more likely to take it away. It’s basically nothing but a sh*t sandwich for them.”

    But it’s an HONEST sh*t sandwich, so it would still be useful for them to learn. If more consideration was given to the differences between sexes it might help more people realize why the current educational system isn’t as good to boys as it could be.
    Recess and P.E. benefit everyone, since they burn calories.

    “BTW, I hate the word submissive in the context of intergender relations because it has a ton of pejorative baggage. I wish there was a different word that captured the gestalt of the dynamic.”

    I agree. People with mad language skillz, help?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “What I want men to understand is that for us, learning this truth is devastating (cultural differences notwithstanding).”

    Curious about re-read what I said above.

    The men I mentioned.
    Do you think they were any less devastated?
    I’ll go so far as to say that its a rather universal concept here not merely one that applies to women.

    “We also are well acquainted with “sexy ugly” as a CONCEPT,”

    I’m aquatinted with the concept of gravity yet I don’t regularly see gravitons. (note: Not at all acquainted with the concept of gravity and gravitons.)
    Its a possibility but highly unlikely. Most couples are mated in a relatively equal manner. Those who are not are exceptions not rules.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The men I mentioned.
      Do you think they were any less devastated?

      I guess not, but isn’t the that primary sex difference we speak of re sexuality? Men want variety, do not require emotional intimacy in order to enjoy sex, with some exceptions. Women want a “favored male,” and do require emotional intimacy, with some exceptions.

      Are you talking about the exceptions?

      I really don’t think either sex has it worse than the other, if that’s what you’re driving at.

  • Russ in Texas

    My wife was very fortunate in having a grandmother to teach her the ropes, so she was well-prepared for the idea that men relate differently to sex than women do.

    I think the biggest “crime” of the Boomers will be the notion of generational war, because so MANY pain-points occur simply because they have to be rediscovered (witness 90% of bluepill->redpill conversions) rather than having been handed down directly.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Really? The school system has always been working for guys?

    My uncles had poor GPAs in school, my grandfather dropped out in 8th grade, and my dad never graduated college.

    High school graduation rates adjusted for ethnic background have been rising for decades.

    The school system didn’t work for the men before my time, either, but the economy was good enough to make things work with the material they had.

  • JP

    “Also, LJBFing doesn’t work just one way. Many women secretly crush on guy friends for years on end, knowing the guy would sleep with them perhaps, but is clearly not interested in dating them.”

    As opposed to me, who would be willing to date them, just not sleep with them.

    This brings back memories of my prom experience in high school…

  • JP

    “My uncles had poor GPAs in school, my grandfather dropped out in 8th grade, and my dad never graduated college.”

    My uncle was a neurosurgeon (he’s quite dead now), so I’m definitely under performing here.

  • Mike C

    This is certainly an important point; but it also has a subtler flip side. The boys who do conform more to the “female-acting” ideal –peaceful cooperation, modesty, self-control, obedience to authority — are differentially praised and rewarded by the figures of authority, uniformly; and so they naturally will absorb the message that this is the “right” and “good” way to behave generally. It’s not a direct and simple lie, but it does put a boy in pretty poor stead for later heterosexual life to encourage and reinforce only his “female-acting” habits, even from pre-pubescent times.

    +1,000,000,000

    You just described me and my childhood/teenage years perfectly. Unlike some of the examples being discussed, I was a very successful student. I was a high achiever because I conformed exactly to those “female-acting” ideals of peaceful cooperation and obedience to authority at least in certain environments (I had an impish, mischievous side I would let loose only at certain times). I’d be retired now if I had $1 for every time a friend’s parent said to their kid “Why can’t you be more like Mike”. And although I did not know it at the time, that set the table for the absolute miserable failure my dating life was throughout all of high school and college. I had internalized somehow that the same behavioral template that made me an extremely successful student and model for every parent to point out to their kids would also be successful with girls. Knowing what I know now, obviously that is an absurd belief.

  • Mike C

    That’s a great observation that may explain a lot. If a boy is rewarded by authority figures his entire life for docile behavior, how on earth is he going to respond when he gets his first inkling in 7th grade that girls like rebels?

    Confusion.

    Even if he processes that and knows he is ill equipped to compete, how can he undo all those years of programming and reinforcement?

    It is a long and arduous process, but it can be done. From a nuts and bolts level, the undoing comes from rehearsing. Old patterns of behavior and speech have to be broken, and replaced with something different. That can only happen at the conscious level, not the unconscious level.

  • Cooper

    “Also, LJBFing doesn’t work just one way. Many women secretly crush on guy friends for years on end, knowing the guy would sleep with them perhaps, but is clearly not interested in dating them.”

    Um, well that goes both ways.

    The major difference being the girls that guys keep as female friends are usually at minimum fuckable, in their eyes. So really they have that, and upwards to work with. Where as I believe girls hold onto male friends that they wouldn’t even sleep with. (Remember we’re living in a world where physical proceeds emotional)
    From a male friends POV, the relationship ranges from a shoulder to cry on to a possible screw. My point is (a lot of) female friends have a range of sleep-with to possibly more.

    Maybe you’ll disagree, but I generally think that the female friends that a guy keeps are much closer to girlfriend material than the male friends are to being a boyfriend.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Maybe you’ll disagree, but I generally think that the female friends that a guy keeps are much closer to girlfriend material than the male friends are to being a boyfriend.

      I actually don’t know. I have known some girls who have been stuck on guy friends who seem oblivious to them. I’ve gotten a lot of emails about that as well.

  • Iggles

    Interesting article Ion!

    This definitely defies stereotypes:
    For example, 43.8 percent of African immigrants had achieved a college degree, compared to 42.5 of Asian Americans, 28.9 percent for immigrants from Europe, Russia and Canada, and 23.1 percent of the U.S. population as a whole.

    That defies the usual stereotypes of Asian Americans as the only “model minority.” Yet the traditional American narrative has rendered the high academic achievements of black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean invisible, as if it were a taboo topic.

    @ Ion:

    many of the “black americans” in college for example, have parents of caribbean decent

    I continually forget about this! :lol:

    Me and one of my good friends talked about this in college! Half of us on the board of our BSU (black student union) had at least 1 parent from the Caribbean (as in born there), including myself. We self-identify as black first so there are times when we forget that we fall into that statistic as “children of immigrants”.

    IME, I would say it’s very true that immigrants who were middle class in their home country stress education. There was never any question that my sisters and I were going to college. On my dad’s side, for generations college degrees were expected. It just was. My mom value education strongly as well (even though her parent’s didn’t push her in school). I remember the first time I realized that not every family was like my own, where we were pushed to excel academically. I was in the 6th grade and I mentioned to a classmate if I ever got less than a B my parents would be upset. She looked at me perplexed and asked, “Why?” That was my there is no spoon moment!

  • Iggles

    @ Lokland:

    Do you remember the vehement debate that took place awhile back in which some men were upset that their wives/girlfriends/SOs were mind fucking other men or very much wanted to. You came down quite firmly on the side of no mind police ergo not wrong.

    I recall the men thought women did the same thing when they declare a man is “hot”. The majority of women on HUS said they DO NOT “mind fuck” men period. We can appreciate a man’s attractiveness and/or that he’s a catch without picturing having sex with him!

    Most women do not mindfuck strange men. With crushes and current SO’s it’s different.

  • JP

    “I actually don’t know. I have known some girls who have been stuck on guy friends who seem oblivious to them. I’ve gotten a lot of emails about that as well.”

    My problem has always been that my female friends wanted to date me.

    So, yes, the guy may truly not be attracted to his girl friends.

  • Cooper

    “I have known some girls who have been stuck on guy friends who seem oblivious to them. I’ve gotten a lot of emails about that as well.”

    I’d suggest that those are the exceptions. And I’d be surprised if in any of those scenarios the guy wasn’t already sleeping with someone else.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    “sexy-ugly” is profoundly experienced by men, although in a different way than women experience it. Younger men’s sex drives are so powerful and insistent, it takes a lot to disqualify a woman as a potential [short-term] sexual partner.

    When I was younger, I found Sandra Bernhard disturbingly sexy, although she is as hideous as a snake, and I was not alone. Uma Thurman is often referred to as “Goat Girl” in our household. I have never considered her beautiful, or even pretty, but she is undeniably sexy.

    Older men find themselves attracted to older women who were spectacular in their youth, have lost their looks, but have not lost that “something extra” that made them a star in the first place. I’m not talking about genetic freaks like Jacqueline Bisset, Emmylou Harris, Raquel Welch, Theresa Russell, or Julie Christie who will always be in the top point-oh-one percent of women in their age group. I’m talking about women who have hit the wall hard but can still beguile a fellow of a certain age.

    Lauren Bacall fits into this category, as did Ava Gardner and Barbara Stanwyck . The classic example is, of course, Simone Signoret. Picking through the classic beauties of my own generation, I can nominate Charlotte Rampling and Cybil Shepard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      I have always been fascinated by Charlotte Rampling’s looks. I think she said recently in an interview that she has reached an age where she is completely invisibile to men.

      One French actress that I think is super sexy without being a beauty is Charlotte Gainsbourg. A bit too much of dad for beauty, but she is extremely compelling to look at, IMO.

      Funny you should mention Emmylou Harris. We were watching her last night in a Neil Young concert, and she really is stunning. When she was younger I felt that she never got the credit for her looks that she deserved, but she’s aged better than almost anyone.

  • JP

    “I’d suggest that those are the exceptions. And I’d be surprised if in any of those scenarios the guy wasn’t already sleeping with someone else.”

    Don’t listen to Cooper. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “ I feel like the red pill is all around me, how can anyone miss it?”

    Because when it is shown, it is generally also shown as “what NOT to do” for boys and young men.

    “That sounds like criticism of alpha males. Maybe that’s the apex fallacy at work here. When I hear women say things like this I think, “I’m glad I’m not married to someone like that.””

    Yep exactly. The problem is, most men are NOT natural alpha males. If they (like I did) take that advice to heart, they become very un-manlike. I did NOT need to be told to be more romantic as a young guy, I was far TOO romantic for my own good, and because of that message I doubled down on it. Self centered and arrogant? It took me YEARS to get where I am now, and as much as I say I’m an arrogant asshole, I don’t appear that way. Do you know why I call myself that? Because based on what I was taught as a boy, my behavior today IS arrogant and assholean.

    “Aren’t shows that feature alpha males cleaning up with women despite being guilty of all of the above instructive?”

    Maybe or maybe not. Anytime something like that came on when I was young (and in the 80’s there was less of it, but it existed) my mother and aunts made sure to point out that was NOT the way to find a “good” girl, and that any woman that fell for such a jerk was flawed.

    “That’s a great observation that may explain a lot. If a boy is rewarded by authority figures his entire life for docile behavior, how on earth is he going to respond when he gets his first inkling in 7th grade that girls like rebels?”

    THIS!!!!! This exactly describes my adolescence. I was faced with the reality that “bad boys” cleaned up, but was constantly encouraged NOT to be a “bad boy” in any way, shape or form.

    “Even if he processes that and knows he is ill equipped to compete, how can he undo all those years of programming and reinforcement?”

    Now maybe you can grok why sometimes I seem so bitter and resentful. I can’t describe to you how difficult it has been to undo the “programming” that is causing me issues. Some of it was as easy as changing a shirt, but other parts of it feel much like cutting out a piece of my soul. It has been one of the most emotionally painful processes of my life, and every time I see a “man up” article I want to choke someone to death with my bare hands.

    “The idea of Mr. HUS having that urge on his morning commute makes me want to crawl under the covers and cry for the rest of the day.”

    Wow. I never imagined it would be that difficult for women to understand. There is no reason to be so upset though, he comes home to you every night. Attraction isn’t a choice, what you do with it IS however, and THAT is where the real mettle of a man’s character lives.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      Attraction isn’t a choice, what you do with it IS however, and THAT is where the real mettle of a man’s character lives.

      I understand that in a cerebral way, but the voice in my head says that if he loved me he would not even feel those desires. Because that’s how I operate – I have not felt desire for another man in decades!

      As Iggles pointed out, men assume women are mindf*cking strangers. I can’t even begin to fathom such a thing.

      Both sexes project, which is natural enough.

  • Cooper

    @JP

    I don’t hear that around here as much as I probably should.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, Iggles

    “I guess not, but isn’t the that primary sex difference we speak of re sexuality?”

    Confused.

    The primary sex dif. is variety vs. favoured one.
    Why would the person desiring variety be any less devastated by their mate wanting variety?

    I can most assure you that it would probably be an utterly mind destroying bomb if I learned that about my wife.

    Or do you mean the relative occurrences of each sex wanting variety?

    “Most women do not mindfuck strange men.”

    From which I must ask.

    Your fuckin’ with me right? Never?
    Maybe its projection but I am as of yet having trouble conceiving such a possibility.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      From which I must ask.

      Your fuckin’ with me right? Never?
      Maybe its projection but I am as of yet having trouble conceiving such a possibility.

      Females are much more likely to get off on reading a story about a romantic and sexy interaction between two other people, i.e. romance fiction. I would not be capable of reading something like 50 Shades while inserting myself as the protagonist. What’s arousing is watching (in my mind’s eye) a woman with a man.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The primary sex dif. is variety vs. favoured one.
      Why would the person desiring variety be any less devastated by their mate wanting variety?

      Because they would understand that such desires are normal (this would actually be projection) and that they need not threaten the relationship.

      Men want variety and think women do too. Women want the favored one and think men do too.

      I think the analogy would be hypergamy – women like the idea of men being extremely selective about who they have sex with. It’s actually quite depressing to learn how low the bar is set. This is why women erroneously derive validation from male sexual attention.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ion and Iggles, I definitely don’t think it’s unusual for immigrants to be like that! But high achieving immigrants are not necessarily from a high socioeconomic background. It’s more of a mindset than innate privilege.

    Since I lived in the midwest, I didn’t know very many immigrants from Africa or the Carribean, but I did know a lot from Asia and Eastern Europe, so that was my experience.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland

    “Most women do not mindfuck strange men.”

    Your fuckin’ with me right? Never?
    Maybe its projection but I am as of yet having trouble conceiving such a possibility.

    I don’t see why this is so difficult to conceive of as a possibility.

    I only ever fantasized about one man at a time. I’m guessing it’s the female version of “oneitis.” Different women have this in different degrees. I don’t personally have celebrity crushes, and as I recall, Jesus Mahoney got all upset when some women here mentioned that they had celebrity crushes while having a significant other.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Females are much more likely to get off on reading a story about a romantic and sexy interaction between two other people, i.e. romance fiction.”

    I can grasp that easily enough but what about the record setting sale of grey ties.

    That does not compute with not putting oneself in the story.

    ———-

    As a note, I remember asking my wife (maybe fiancé at the time) whether or not she did. Her answer was the very idea is repulsing. I assumed she was telling me what I wanted to hear (because that is exactly what men were told to do).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I can grasp that easily enough but what about the record setting sale of grey ties.

      That does not compute with not putting oneself in the story.

      Ah, but they bought those grey ties to go home and jump on their husbands. The story jumpstarted their sex drive, but to satisfy it, they needed to connect with their own partner.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t very many men believe that women want variety. I never thought that and never heard a friend say it either.

    But we all intuitively knew/know that women want “the best” and that your ass might get dumped if she got a shot with somebody “better.”

    Before Susan gets upset at me, this is just a taste issue, not a principle for action. My bio desire for variety can’t be fully extinguished, but I am quite capable of controlling it. Just as, in her heart of hearts, my wife may occasionally flutter over someone richer, hotter or more dominant than me. But I trust her not to act on it in the slightest.

    Though, Susan, you say that such has NEVER happened to you since you got with your husband. I wonder if that feeling is common or rare. Clearly, the better the marriage the more likely it will be. But I wonder if even in great marriages, the woman can still tingle for someone else involuntarily.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Though, Susan, you say that such has NEVER happened to you since you got with your husband. I wonder if that feeling is common or rare. Clearly, the better the marriage the more likely it will be. But I wonder if even in great marriages, the woman can still tingle for someone else involuntarily.

      To be clear, it’s not that I can’t find other men attractive. And of course, I’m capable of being flattered by male attention. But that’s not the same as desire or arousal, which is what I assume you mean by “tingle.”

  • OffTheCuff

    The anecdote is meaningless, it’s the person relating the anecdote and how often I see stuff like that. Go anywhere that discusses relationships, sex, or and you’ll see that women understanding attraction triggers like we do here is easily 1:10, if even that. Women, of course understand what they want – but they are utterly clueless on what it takes for US to get there, hence the constant insistence on nice/natural game.

    This would be like saying a man, who knows he likes a girl with a nice ass, knows “girl game” by virtue of getting a boner. Not in the least.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women, of course understand what they want – but they are utterly clueless on what it takes for US to get there, hence the constant insistence on nice/natural game.

      Yes, I agree with this. Most women have no idea how guys struggle with the dominance piece. They are frustrated and annoyed when men do engage in supplicating behavior. I’ve heard them exclaim in frustration that a guy they were really into has blown the whole thing by being overeager.

      Now I’m going to upset Cooper.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “I don’t see why this is so difficult to conceive of as a possibility.”

    :)

    I was being intentionally hyperbolic. (Look I made a funny and no one got it…again.)

  • Joe

    @Susan

    It’s actually quite depressing to learn how low the bar is set. This is why women erroneously derive validation from male sexual attention.

    Then when men say things like “Most men think most women are above average in attractiveness,” the intended compliment is received as an slight???

    That is depressing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      Then when men say things like “Most men think most women are above average in attractiveness,” the intended compliment is received as an slight???

      That is depressing.

      YES! Most women dream of hearing “You’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen” and “I’ve never felt like this before.” If you like pretty much everyone, well then we’re not special snowflakes!

      When women say “you’re the one,” we generally mean that out of the 2,000 men we’ve met, we could only ever imagine winding up with you. (This may not be realistic, be we are romantic that way.) Then we find out that to men it means, “of the thousands of women I have wanted to bang, you caught me at a time when I was open to commitment. Good timing!”

      It really is so depressing.

  • JP

    “Because they would understand that such desires are normal (this would actually be projection) and that they need not threaten the relationship.”

    Until one party gets tired of the relationship for whatever reason.

  • Mike C

    You might. Most women don’t. My female employees will quite happily spend half a day entering numbers into computers. My male employees need the threat of an imminent ISO 9000 audit to get them to put a label on something.

    VD,

    I can relate to this. I’ve seen some commenters on some blogs basically say women are useless in the workforce. I totally reject that view. I think it depends a lot on the type of work with each sex having certain skill sets (of course NAWALT AND NAMALT).

    I happen to work in a corporate job function that has a high level of tedious, mundane tasks. It is basically cubicle dweller, low-level grind out the numbers Excel spreadsheet analytical work. A person probably needs to be of slightly above average intelligence to do it, but not super smart by any means. Two of the top performers in the department (easily outperform me) are women (one I am friendly with and the other is the biggest b*tch I’ve ever met). In contrast, I find it a daily mental war to try and stay focused on completing the tedious, mundane work which boils down to a great number of columns and rows of data and arithmetic calculations. I’ve spoken with a male co-worker who is very intelligent (he is actually the player co-worker I often refer to here) and he notes the exact same daily mental struggle. I think for the most part men are not “wired” to spend their days in a cubicle doing tedious, mundane work. Women seem to tolerate it better. Putting on my evo hat, it seems like childcare in ancient times would have required that sort of multi-tasking and ability to do mundane stuff for long stretches of time. In contrast, taking down the wooly mammoth required strategy and the ability to focus on a singular task with high adrenalin and high risk-reward. It would be interesting to see the performance of female CEOs over time as strategic vision is more important than speed or efficiency at mundane tasks. I know Carly Fiorina was an absolute disaster for HP but that is just one example

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Putting on my evo hat, it seems like childcare in ancient times would have required that sort of multi-tasking and ability to do mundane stuff for long stretches of time. In contrast, taking down the wooly mammoth required strategy and the ability to focus on a singular task with high adrenalin and high risk-reward.

      Hmm, I daresay that through most of history 99% of men have done tedious and repetitive work all their lives.

      It seems to me that multi-tasking and variety are the opposite of tedious and mundane. Childcare may not be intellectually stimulating, but mundane it is not. In fact, it’s a bit too exciting much of the time. Similarly, it is tiring, even exhausting, but not tedious or repetitive.

      I suspect what you are describing has more to do with attention deficit or distractability issues. I’m fairly ADD myself (I imagine, never been tested) and could never do data entry as a job. I recall living in fear of spreadsheet mistakes when I was a consultant because that kind of detail work did not come naturally to me at all.

      The truth is that most jobs in finance are heavily reliant on the kind of work you describe, and most of them are done by males. For example, fundamental equity researchers do that stuff all day long, and it’s almost always men who seem to prefer those jobs. Wall St. in general has gotten a lot more quanty.

      I wonder there is also an intelligence issue – perhaps someone with a higher IQ requires more intellectual stimulation, including real analysis, to be satisfied. Whereas someone with lower ability might be gratified to enter a column of numbers without making a mistake.

  • JP

    “My bio desire for variety can’t be fully extinguished, but I am quite capable of controlling it. Just as, in her heart of hearts, my wife may occasionally flutter over someone richer, hotter or more dominant than me. But I trust her not to act on it in the slightest.”

    The issue is that you get into the relationship *because* you were interested in the person to the exclusion of other people.

    The problem is that, in life, you keep finding people in whom you would be interested in getting together with if you simply weren’t in the relationship with the person who you are with.

    So, the very thing that got you *into the relationship*, meaning being really interested in someone, having a crush, etc., in the first place is now working against you and pulling you *out* of the current relationship.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Learning that men mindf*ck total strangers on their commute even while happily partnered is nothing short of devastating.

    There are exceptions to that. ;) Though it’s the exceptions that prove the rule.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      There are exceptions to that. Though it’s the exceptions that prove the rule.

      I cling to the hope that my husband is such an exception.

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    You are kidding right? Every time Susan gets and “unearned achievement” her detractors attack her harder and in group and try their best to get her to quit altogether. Joining directly and organization will be bad for her and I’m sure many men will quit if she gets there like the recent Spearhead emigration, some men are very “go big or go home” in this matter, just my two cents.

    I don’t think real life men’s rights groups are nearly as crazy as the online manosphere.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    JP “The problem is that, in life, you keep finding people in whom you would be interested in getting together with if you simply weren’t in the relationship with the person who you are with.”

    Do you feel this way? Like, do you find a lot of other women that you’d be interested in getting together with if you weren’t with your wife? I don’t find this to be the case for me with regard to my husband.

    Perhaps this is another way men and women are different. When a woman is happily married, she’s with her “favored one.” So unless her husband is no longer that, she’s not going to be interested in other men.

  • INTJ

    @ stg58/Animal Mother

    165 comments and only one concerning homeschooling?

    Parents, consider homeschooling your son, especially if the school is blatantly crushing his spirit and masculinity.

    Yeah it’s funny that people found the Conn. shooting a good reason to homeschool but not this…

  • INTJ

    @ Ted D

    So is it your theory that the guys over at MMSL are the outliers? I’m genuinely curious, because in some ways that makes sense. In fact, it tends to jive with the fact that HUS has a very large collection of unicorns in the INTJ population. Maybe it isn’t so much that all boys/men were lied to their entire lives, but that certain personality types took the standard messages given to them in VERY different ways that resulted in them being super-betaized. I’m just spitballing here so feel free to shoot it full of wholes. (not that anyone here needs an excuse for that anyway. LOL)

    That would make sense. In a way, INTJs are the true nice guys ™. We’re highly pre-occupied with doing the right thing (rather than just what works or what everyone else is doing), which makes us nice guys. Unlike perpetual nice guys, though, we also critically question everything we’re told. Hence the ™ part where we complain that society doesn’t actually reward good behavior.

  • INTJ

    @ Esau

    Glad to see you around man! I was starting to miss your comments.

  • JP

    I was the school, so I was the one doing the crushing.

    I accidentally got a “rebel” expelled once.

    Granted, I was trying to wage holy war on the rebel/skater/rock element, but still…

  • Escoffier

    Hope, I have never yet met a woman with whom I wanted to be more than my wife, or even with whom I wanted to “test the waters” to see how things panned out.

    However, the boner test is met all the time. I think that’s just the way most men are.

  • Tasmin

    @MikeC
    “I had internalized somehow that the same behavioral template that made me an extremely successful student and model for every parent to point out to their kids would also be successful with girls. ”
    +1
    Yep if your teachers praised you, chances are you were well on your way down blue-pill nice-guy road. For me this was also supported by a long period of moms similarly finding me to be quite a prize only to be largely ignored by their daughters. I can still remember my 8th grade english teacher telling me one day after class – it was final period and I often stuck around to read from books from her private library – that “you will make some very lucky woman a wonderful husband”. That should be a good thing, right? Ha. The playground was the only honest thing about school.

    Then it is the real world again, where those K-12 school “skills” of falling in-line, keeping your head down, being sensitive/thoughtful to the needs/emotions/circumstances of others, focused on pleasing authority, and hard working would assure that you are good laborer, but would almost never get you promoted outside of government jobs, or anywhere close to getting laid.

    What saved me was a unique college experience and then series of jobs that demanded more alpha behaviors and perspectives and the cumulative experience of competitive sports securing in me a keen sense of competition, being strategic, and knowing when/how to hit the gas. It helped being highly intuitive, but I’d still gladly trade some of that N for some E and some IQ for height. IOW, potential energy for kinetic and fiat currency for gold.

    My advice: If your son is any combination of late-bloomer, physically smaller, introverted, cerebral, and/or sensitive. Get him in into something where he will be forced to compete (both win AND lose) but either way will bleed at some point. And if all the teachers love him, you need to think hard on that. Get some real world in the mix before he is a fully-cooked blue-pill beta.

    Or he will end up as an internal auditor for the state living 3 miles from you and spending his friday nights at the bar at Chili’s getting drunk and creeping out the cute HS waitstaff and his saturday nights playing poker with his other perpetually single buddies then laying in bed alone, laptop on his chest open to OKcupid (“no new messages”) and falling asleep to the sound of his asshole neighbor pounding the headboard against the wall.

    All while you and all the other moms from high school will still be saying what a catch he is because he has a “good” job and owns his own condo and drives a sensible-yet-sporty Acura and the daughters will STILL say/think: “eeeewww gross”, “he’s so…….boring”. And everyone will be scratching their heads. Moms: “I just don’t know if she will ever find a man”; Daughters: “Where are all of the good men?”; Son: “another beer please”.

    Maybe he wakes up and takes the red pill. Too bad it took 32 years. Where are all of these blue-pill messages coming from? Maybe these days there are less of them, who knows, but when I came up, they were constant, ingrained, uniformly reinforced, and everywhere. It was never “be sure and bring her flowers and chocolates”; it was about respect, equality, sensitivity, and needs. Respecting HER, HER needs, etc. Pop culture things like Sex and the City do not unwind those messages, they further conflict.

    The point isn’t that we aren’t shown how dominance, aggression, alpha “gets the girls” – we’ve seen that the entire way from the playground to the boardroom. Its that those things are typically not aligned with the “good” side. We’re not told/shown how those things can manifest in an otherwise “good” man. We typically see those things wrapped in asshole characters. Sure they get the girl, but are they “Good” men? Usually not. So the choice is dirtbag selfish asshole that gets the girls or a “Good” man who is respectful and will “one day find a woman who sees all of that good in him”.

    There is polarization that happens early on. For the boys who don’t have physical dominance and aren’t naturally aggressive, they can either be a failure at what works and feel bad about themselves or strongly secure their place in the “good” camp, bitter enemies of the evil alpha and those bitches who continue to chose them. The good camp gets you praise from moms and teachers and dads who are afraid of raising a bully. So you feel “good” about yourself, and you learn to suppress those bad things. “You are a late bloomer. Don’t worry, your time will come.” It becomes less about the now and more about some utopian future where the world suddenly rights itself in your favor.

    The fact that I never got a kiss on the playground was a bigger predictor of things to come than the fact that all of my teachers loved me.

  • Iggles

    @ Lokland:

    “Most women do not mindfuck strange men.”

    Your fuckin’ with me right? Never?
    Maybe its projection but I am as of yet having trouble conceiving such a possibility.

    :lol:

    Nope. Not joking. As Susan pointed out, this may be a classic case of gender projection.

    Honestly, I don’t think about what strangers look naked. Nor what sex would be like with any of them – not even Brad Pitt! Now, I won’t shy away from looking at a nude guy and while I’ve watch my fair share of porn in the past it’s not something I actively seek out. Now I’m happily partnered it has changed the way I view other men. Namely indifference as far as any sexual interest is concerned. Frankly speaking, the only dick I care to see as well as hold and handle is my SO’s ;)

    @ Susan, Re: Erotica -
    Like most women, I prefer erotica over porn. However, I don’t insert myself as the protagonist either!

    It’s too weird! I’d rather picture the two characters than see myself as one.

  • Mike C

    I think it was MikeC who mentioned that submissiveness in the red pill context is a difficult word today because of its pejorative implication. Submissiveness in and of itself is not wrong, and it is useful for both partners to consider its significance in marriage, but the men (and women) who seem most stridently in favor of it always seem to be the ones who are the most contemptuous of women.

    Yes, that was me, and I’ll reiterate I don’t like the word. I really don’t like the model of dominant vs submissive. The problem is as soon as someone hears that, they are thinking some sort of dictator-subject relationship (the man calls the shots). I don’t believe in this, and don’t think that is the basis of any adult relationship. That said, I’m not a believer in the equalist model either. It really is very difficult to capture the nuance here. What I’d say is a woman who is going to make a good wife should be 180 degrees opposite of this:

    Crazy chick: “More so….women are told from birth that it’s their *job* to be weak. I remember in church youth group, the youth pastor would ask “the guys” to help move tables together. I remember going off on him, and moving a table by my-damn-self and asking why he assumes that women can’t lift a folding table. I embarrassed the crap out of him. My brother told me that I was disrespectful because “you don’t speak to the youth pastor that way,” and I responded, “He disrespected *ALL* women, and I’m sick of it.””

    I don’t need anything else but this excerpt to tell me this woman here is not marriageable. Life with her would be miserable as she is going to feel the need to constantly challenge her husband every time ***she perceives*** he is questioning her strength or independence, or whatever. It is the attitude of feeling like it is necessary to “assert yourself” that is very offputting. I can’t find the discussion now, but there was a good discussion that a woman can get her way, or impact the course of action by a certain type of femininity, not a battle of who can outassert who. I’ll make this point as well. At least to me, the single best way a woman can demonstrate “strength” to me is not by aping masculine aggressiveness, but in her self-mastery of her own emotions. We know women are more emotional than men. To me a strong woman is a woman who is self-aware of that, and has the ability to suppress that under certain stressors. In other words, she doesn’t get excessively distraught, or angry, or shoot off like a loose cannon. I mentioned this in a previous thread, but recently I saw a woman in my personal life just completely lose it emotionally in what should have been a minor situation. The superficial veneer of being a strong, independent woman completely disappeared and revealed a person with a very fragile psyche.

  • Tasmin

    @Cooper
    ““I have known some girls who have been stuck on guy friends who seem oblivious to them. I’ve gotten a lot of emails about that as well.”

    I’d suggest that those are the exceptions. And I’d be surprised if in any of those scenarios the guy wasn’t already sleeping with someone else.”

    I think I’m kind of with you on this one. I’d say (a) the guys are getting sex/attention somewhere else; (b) the women in these situations are overestimating their SMV (he doesn’t “see” what he doesn’t find attractive, just like women don’t “see” a lot of men out there); (c) the women are “stuck” on them but continue to entertain advances/attention from other men in his presence/know or (d) he is one of those introverted guys who has no idea that he is attractive to women (he was invisible for a long time); or some combination.

    I’ve been this guy (d) and it is almost always (B). I don’t find them remotely attractive – physically. Though I’ve experienced (c) too, to which I say, if I haven’t made a move on you it is because I don’t typically “make moves”, which you know because you already know me and when I see you engaging with other men – more aggressive men, it basically tells me that you either enjoy the attention of men (more than I want to deal with) or you want that aggressive type of man (which I am typically not), so I just let it be.

    In those cases, not only do they have to work on their IOI and approach, but they have to also ween themselves from all of that external validation – attention from other men, at least long enough to make it known that their interest in me is specific and not just one more potential source of attention.

    But yeah, sometimes the guys is just socially dense or something. Just like sometimes the hottest woman in the room doesn’t get approached (by the “right” kind of man).

  • JP

    “It seems to me that multi-tasking and variety are the opposite of tedious and mundane. Childcare may not be intellectually stimulating, but mundane it is not. In fact, it’s a bit too exciting much of the time. Similarly, it is tiring, even exhausting, but not tedious or repetitive.”

    No, the opposite of tedious and mundane is *interesting*.

    Childcare is exciting, tiring, and exhausting, but it is in no way interesting.

    In fact, I’ve found dealing with children to be just as painful as working, mostly because neither are particularly interesting to me, in the sense that I have to put forth significant attention to deal with them and they are inherently unpleasant.

    Normally, this causes me to blank out and just daydream when I’m supposed to be dealing with my children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      In fact, I’ve found dealing with children to be just as painful as working, mostly because neither are particularly interesting to me, in the sense that I have to put forth significant attention to deal with them and they are inherently unpleasant.

      Normally, this causes me to blank out and just daydream when I’m supposed to be dealing with my children.

      You are such a funny, quirky and smart guy. Honest too!

      I always found my own kids fairly interesting – perhaps because I made them. Is that solipsism? I find that I still am not sure exactly what counts.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Ah, but they bought those grey ties to go home and jump on their husbands. The story jumpstarted their sex drive, but to satisfy it, they needed to connect with their own partner.”

    Why did they require an external sensory experience to become aroused?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why did they require an external sensory experience to become aroused?

      It’s porn for women. Why do men “require” porn? They don’t (at least until they’ve seen too much of it), it’s just fun. Also, it seems like 50 Shades gave women specific ideas of new things to try. A bit of tying up.

      Speaking of BDSM, I saw a very funny story online. A priest called 911 and asked for help getting out of a pair of handcuffs. His voice was also very indistinct and garbled – he was gagged. The 911 operator did his best to find out what the hell was going on. The priest was alone, but had been “playing with the props” and had gotten locked into the handcuffs by mistake. A police car was sent to St. Aloysius post-haste.

  • J

    I have terrible memories from third grade of my teacher dumping my desk in front of the class.

    Oh, nice. I hope your parents raise hell.

    I came into my own in early high school when I learned coping techniques, and I ended up going to Ivies for both college and law school. I never bought in to it all.

    Good for you on both counts–the achievement and not buying into the bullshit. One thing I’ve tried to teach my own kids is to never let anyone or anything own their souls.

  • Mike C

    Hmm, I daresay that through most of history 99% of men have done tedious and repetitive work all their lives.

    Susan,

    I think it is different if it is physical work. I personally don’t find physical drudgery quite as bothersome as mental drudgery.

    It seems to me that multi-tasking and variety are the opposite of tedious and mundane.

    Not really, you can be multi-tasking multiple tedioius tasks such as entering numbers on a spreadsheet while you listen on a conference call to a boring routine weekly update meeting. In my experience, women really are better than men at that sort of thing. In my view, based on what I’ve observed in the workplace women can often actually be better middle managers than many men because of the skill set necessary to be an effective middle manager.

    Childcare may not be intellectually stimulating, but mundane it is not. In fact, it’s a bit too exciting much of the time.

    Well…I’ve never been a mother so I’ll take your word for it, but seems to me things like changing a diaper and breastfeeding while getting the laundry done are pretty mundane tasks. Or coordinating Johnny’s baseball practice with Lisa’s piano lesson. I can’t imagine any of it requires much creativity or the intellectual horsepower to solve differential equations. It isn’t writing a novel. But it seems like it would be a great number of little things that all have to get done efficiently and correctly. I can recall movies where the joke is when the guy takes over childcare and home responsibiilties, it becomes total chaos.

    The truth is that most jobs in finance are heavily reliant on the kind of work you describe, and most of them are done by males. For example, fundamental equity researchers do that stuff all day long, and it’s almost always men who seem to prefer those jobs. Wall St. in general has gotten a lot more quanty.

    FWIW, most top analysts who do the actual research don’t do much of the grunt work. That is what junior analysts and assistants are for. So a top analyst might do some industry research and then have the junior analyst update the model. My guess is it is all low-level analysts that are updating models at IBs at Friday at 11 PM for an IPO or debt offering. I’m not sure that men prefer that work except you’ve got to start somewhere and doing the shit work is necessary if you want to move to higher level positions. I believe more women are finding their way into finance and Wall St positions, and it actually would not surprise me if women outperform men at those lower level junior analyst positions. You might have some personal experience to support or refute that.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    When women say “you’re the one,” we generally mean that out of the 2,000 men we’ve met, we could only ever imagine winding up with you. (This may not be realistic, be we are romantic that way.) Then we find out that to men it means, “of the thousands of women I have wanted to bang, you caught me at a time when I was open to commitment. Good timing!”

    Too true! Haha.

    But it falls in line with what you said about “Sex and The City” being red pill for woman. I remember this very concept (timing & marriage for men) explained with the cab light theory an episode! The series aired when I was in high school so I never held this illusion about men. Just liked I never expected to be “unconditionally loved” by a romantic partner! And I’ve always known looks matter and (most) men will lose attraction to you if you gain weight..

    *shrugs*

    I’m not a “happily ever after” kind of girl. Never have been. Always wanted to see more; to know what happens AFTER the couple in the movie finally gets together. I’m still an optimist — albiet a pragmatic one!
    And while we’re on this topic: I don’t believe in soul mates! I think there’s a number of people you could happily spend your life with. After compatibility, it comes down to choice, and both partners need to choose every day to make it work.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t believe in soul mates! I think there’s a number of people you could happily spend your life with. After compatibility, it comes down to choice, and both partners need to choose every day to make it work.

      That bodes well for your future as a spouse. The soulmate myth, and in particular female expectations around what that looks like, has done a great deal to undermine marriage.

  • Cooper

    “Now I’m going to upset Cooper”

    More than I can articulate.

    “Learning that men mindf*ck total strangers on their commute even while happily partnered is nothing short of devastating.”

    The thing that still gets me is that the guy who gets oneitis, or acts eager, is somehow a greater risk to this type of devastation.

    Like, if most women have red pill, and thus should already know that the mindfucking is already going on, on a daily basis, then a man whom seems to fixate on them (with oneitis) should be the man the least likely to be mindfucking his barista on his daily commute? No?

    Just seems a awful lot like fried ice, to me.

    Finding it devastating to know that men think about having sex with other women (while partnered, on daily basis), yet rejecting the men that demonstrate a capacity to do exactly NOT that…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Finding it devastating to know that men think about having sex with other women (while partnered, on daily basis), yet rejecting the men that demonstrate a capacity to do exactly NOT that…

      I don’t think women associate male eagerness with a desire to not have sex with other people. If anything, recall that women are suspicious of eagerness in part because it implies fickleness.

  • Lokland

    @Iggles

    “Nope. Not joking. As Susan pointed out, this may be a classic case of gender projection.”

    I’m willing to accept that. I simply don’t believe what you both are telling me.
    It sounds like ‘the sky is green’.

    “I don’t think about what strangers look naked. Nor what sex would be like with any of them – not even Brad Pitt!”

    Honest question, why did you include the last bit?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Why did they require an external sensory experience to become aroused?

    It’s porn for women. Why do men “require” porn? They don’t (at least until they’ve seen too much of it), it’s just fun.”

    There is a distinct difference,

    Men + external source = finish alone
    Women + external source = finish with husband

    I’m trying to understand why there is a difference.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men + external source = finish alone
      Women + external source = finish with husband

      I’m trying to understand why there is a difference.

      I don’t think that’s a real difference. We know that men are bringing popular porn moves into their own bedrooms after they’ve watched alone. I’m certain that women masturbate while reading 50 Shades, then they decide to try that at home. Same thing.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper

    Finding it devastating to know that men think about having sex with other women (while partnered, on daily basis), yet rejecting the men that demonstrate a capacity to do exactly NOT that…

    Actually the men who are over-eager and don’t get to really know the girl before doing the oneitis thing are the turn-offs. In the beginning stages, it’s highly unlikely that the guy knows a lot about the girl besides she’s pretty. And there are tons of pretty girls out there.

    My husband fixated on me only after he discovered I was “unique” personality-wise. If he had been going after me just because I was a cute-sounding female playing a video game, I would have turned him down quite quickly. See the difference there?

  • J

    Dunham’s add a key black character is not surprising, but I think making him a love interest is far more realistic than suddenly adding a fifth friend, which is what I was afraid she’d do.

    Oh, I agree; a new friend added to a foursome that seems to date back to their childhoods makes no sense. She’d be a UMC half black, half Jewish girl, played by Rashida Jones. They have to pretend she’d always existed and bring her back from some socially signifcant job or internship in some exotic place. It’s too contrived.

    Making Donald Glover a BF makes sense in that if the character doesn’t work out, Hannah breaks up with him and he’s gone with tearing into the fabric of the show.

    He’s liberally represented in the Season 2 trailer, so I think we’ll be seeing a lot of him.

    I hope the trailer is representative and that they just didn’t put all the Adam momets into the trailer.

    Also, Adam Driver is one of the best things about the show – she has to find a way to keep him in the story.

    A lot of Hannah’s personal growth is facilitated through that relationship. She needs Adam (and vice-versa).

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    “When women say “you’re the one,” we generally mean that out of the 2,000 men we’ve met, we could only ever imagine winding up with you. (This may not be realistic, be we are romantic that way.) Then we find out that to men it means, “of the thousands of women I have wanted to bang, you caught me at a time when I was open to commitment. Good timing!”

    It really is so depressing.”

    Let me preface this by saying that Im not trying to be a dick or get all negative about women, but Susan, I think you’re overstating just how romantic women really are. A woman might say “you’re the one” for many different reasons- because she wants to follow the script and get married, or because she knows she has a guy that’s in demand and wants to make it work, or because she just plain feels that it is true in the here and now (feelings change). Now, before the haters start warming up their keyboards- calm down. Some men do this too. But for a man, a real commitment is a harder sell and many of us are not all that emotional, so it takes a lot for us to make that mental leap. So no, it’s not as simple as taking a break from chasing tail to say “keeper!” to some random because we’re bored. I find that men are more heady about saying something like “you’re the one” because to any man worth his salt, word is bond, and he understands exactly what that means.

    Call me a cynic, but when a girl says “you’re the one” I don’t put as much stock into it as when it comes out of my own mouth or any other guy’s. Why? Because she is wired to want commitment, so of course she’s going to say that even if she means it only in the moment- it’s easier for her. If a guy says it, there’s more implied meaning because commitment is not one of most men’s defining life goals- so yes, a girl does have to be special to elicit that reaction. Fact of the matter is there are a variety of reasons people choose each other, timing not the least of them, and I think it’s foolish to think that your GF/wife never fantasized (or fantasizes) about any other men at least every now and then, so let’s not act like there’s no element of timing and right time right place in a woman’s path to “the one”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Good comment, that makes sense. I was exaggerating to make a point, and I didn’t even consider women who might say that and not even mean it. I actually believe that people do fall in love, I know it’s not just a matter of timing for guys. My point was that when guys say they find most women attractive enough, women question their selectivity, and what that means if you are a woman who has been selected by a man you are crazy about.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Tasmin.
    I was not (d). I was cheerful and congenial and not at all flustered, as young guys sometimes are, in the presence of higher-SMV women when I was in college. There’s a reason–too complex to go into–that I can put my finger on at least half a dozen circumstances that women I knew but was not dating tried to get my attention- and I missed it. For a long time, I remembered the circs as a particularly cheerful compliment, or putting herself in my way–teach me the hip throw–or something. The sort of thing that should have been followed up, if only to insure we each knew what was happening.
    At one point, I joined a sorority group to work in a project in a depressed area. The only guy, and if I didn’t show up, they might not, either. It was that kind of area. Didn’t do it for prospecting, but I liked the work and being surrounded by hot women was pretty neat, as well.
    I confirmed, to 95% confidence, two of the circs many years later.
    They were all attractive, or at least those are the ones I remember. And, given the way things were in those days, pretty damn’ overt.
    Some guys are really, really thick. So that might be (e).

    I’ve been reading about the Nice Guy, the nice guy, the decent guy, and the red pill for years. Now we see in the post’s subject article, that boys have to be medicated into at least androgyny. From which it follows that, left alone, the boys probably would mostly end up red-pilling it. IOW, if no energy is expended in bluing them, they’d be red. They’re blue. So, energy has been expended to blue them. Ipso facto, or whatever they say.
    Two items follow: One is, where is the energy coming from and why. The other is that guys who speak of the blue-pill issue versus the red-pill issue, whether or not they use the name, speak with a tone implying a betrayal. They did what they’d been told, is the implication, and they were screwed. To put it another way, they think somebody screwed them, with malice aforethought.
    Who, why, what’s the point.

  • J

    Mildly unrelated, but it’s a middle class/upper class immigrant thing, from what I’ve seen.

    Exactly.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    The efforts by _some_ men to throw Susan and like-minded women under the bus for not being sufficiently docile for the MRAs is amusing from afar, if obviously wrong-headed.

    The first stage of gender relation culture was patriarchy. That lasted for about seven-thousand years. Next came female emancipation and the rise of Feminism. It looks like that age will last about one-hundred years or so in the West. In India it’s just starting.

    A lot of men seem to view Feminism as an aberration that should have never happened. I think it was a necessary evil to break-out of some of the class-based, sex-based, etc. limitations of patriarchy. However, it has now overreached and become an ideology, at which point I go with Ferris Buller and decline to participate in ‘-isms’. Its failings are apparent to anyone who can honestly appraise our society at arms length, which to be honest is a challenge.

    Women will never accept a return to patriarchy, nor should they. The key is we need to convince women to aim for not equality, but equanimity. That is, we need to acknowledge the differences between the genders, particularly as it applies to the emotional evolutionary-layer of the brain, while remaining tolerant of people who don’t fit the stereotype. That’s post-feminism, if you want to give it a label.

    The portion of the MRA movement that wants to go back in time is doomed to failure, just like all reactionary movements. Basically they are stuck in the ‘bargaining’ position of the Kubler-Ross model of grief for the ‘Red Pill’ (although Damian’s ‘fish bones’ seems more appropriate here). Reactionaries are terrible at the game of diplomacy. They have no strategy, no real concept of what their goal society would look like. Hence they keep throwing long-bombs trying to score touchdowns, instead of reshaping the field to move the goal-posts closer to their position. Feminism has been able to revolutionize society without violence, and so many people still don’t understand how it was done…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mr. Nervous Toes

      Reactionaries are terrible at the game of diplomacy. They have no strategy, no real concept of what their goal society would look like. Hence they keep throwing long-bombs trying to score touchdowns, instead of reshaping the field to move the goal-posts closer to their position.

      Thank you, that just made a light bulb pop on in my brain. I’ve been baffled, and while this doesn’t explain to me why people behave the way they do, it does shed light on what their (rather ineffective) strategy is.

  • JP

    “I always found my own kids fairly interesting – perhaps because I made them. Is that solipsism? I find that I still am not sure exactly what counts.”

    It’s more activities than anything else.

    I’m not into sports, so being required to play sports (something that my son likes) is acutely painful because inherently uninteresting. Take football, for example. If I was given a choice, I would never have to experience anything football-related again, because it’s not a portion of reality that I care about.

    So, I’m basically forced to play with him, but it’s one of those “can I set the timer and go back inside once it goes off?” events.

    Unless I had a football disability case where I could sue the NFL. Then I would care, but only to the extent that it was a good disability case.

  • Iggles

    @ Lokland:

    I’m willing to accept that. I simply don’t believe what you both are telling me.

    It sounds like ‘the sky is green’.

    LOL!

    “I don’t think about what strangers look naked. Nor what sex would be like with any of them – not even Brad Pitt!”

    Honest question, why did you include the last bit?

    Because he is by conventional standards considered a hot man. He was named the “sexiest man of the year” more than once.

    If I used Elyes Gabel as an example then there’s no name recognition. Maybe a handful of Games of Thrones fans would know who he is. (IMO, this man is seriously hot! Still I’m not picturing sex with him!)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Now I’m going to upset Cooper.

    How would stating what Cooper already knows upset him? If anything, denying it would have upset him, as there is nothing as annoying as having someone deny the problems you face.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How would stating what Cooper already knows upset him? If anything, denying it would have upset him, as there is nothing as annoying as having someone deny the problems you face.

      Since he’s already confirmed that I did upset him, perhaps he can explain.

  • Lokland

    @Iggles

    “Because he is by conventional standards considered a hot man. He was named the “sexiest man of the year” more than once.”

    I should have made my question more clear.
    Why add it on at all, or more specifically
    why provide a very high value example to show that nothing is good enough than merely saying that nothing is good enough without the benchmark?

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “as there is nothing as annoying as having someone deny the problems you face.”

    +11

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    YES! Most women dream of hearing “You’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen” and “I’ve never felt like this before.” If you like pretty much everyone, well then we’re not special snowflakes!

    When women say “you’re the one,” we generally mean that out of the 2,000 men we’ve met, we could only ever imagine winding up with you. (This may not be realistic, be we are romantic that way.) Then we find out that to men it means, “of the thousands of women I have wanted to bang, you caught me at a time when I was open to commitment. Good timing!”

    It really is so depressing.

    How do women square off this dream with the fact that they usually LJBF the picky guys who only get oneitis for that special girl?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How do women square off this dream with the fact that they usually LJBF the picky guys who only get oneitis for that special girl?

      The ’7 reasons why women don’t like eagerness’ post covers this, but the short answer is that women do not trust oneitis when it happens early and often. If a picky guy gets oneitis, that’s great, but women consider that unlikely in just a handful of dates, as he presumably has other options and is weighing them.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted: “Because when it is shown, it is generally also shown as “what NOT to do” for boys and young men.”

    Ted, you normally are so verbose I don’t read what you write, but here is one case where you nailed it one sentence. Tasmin also elaborated quite well.

    Sue: “of the thousands of women I have wanted to bang, you caught me at a time when I was open to commitment. Good timing!”

    Men can’t be as choosy as women, without the options that make them choosy. Remember, the typical female has the equivalent sexual access reserved for male rock star, sports star, or king (whether you want it or not is irrelevant, you have it).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Remember, the typical female has the equivalent sexual access reserved for male rock star, sports star, or king (whether you want it or not is irrelevant, you have it).

      That’s funny. As a New Englander, you will be happy to know that you have complete and unfettered access to kale in the market for most months of the year!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “We know that men are bringing popular porn moves into their own bedrooms after they’ve watched alone. I’m certain that women masturbate while reading 50 Shades, then they decide to try that at home. Same thing.”

    Interesting.
    So both men and women are willing to increase the risk of future dissatisfaction for rewards in the now.

    Story of our civilization.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    Actually the men who are over-eager and don’t get to really know the girl before doing the oneitis thing are the turn-offs. In the beginning stages, it’s highly unlikely that the guy knows a lot about the girl besides she’s pretty. And there are tons of pretty girls out there.

    My husband fixated on me only after he discovered I was “unique” personality-wise. If he had been going after me just because I was a cute-sounding female playing a video game, I would have turned him down quite quickly. See the difference there?

    But most girls aren’t like you were though. Most girls tend to friend-zone guys who actually take the time to get to know them first. Thus, by the time they actually discover the “unique” personality, they are already viewed as “just friends”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Most girls tend to friend-zone guys who actually take the time to get to know them first. Thus, by the time they actually discover the “unique” personality, they are already viewed as “just friends”.

      I think this depends heavily on the guy’s frame, as well as his SMV. The LJBF problem is most pronounced when men pretend they are seeking friendship but in reality are crushing on the girl hard. Girls sniff this out and don’t respect it. If guys refused to play second fiddle, girls wouldn’t take them up on nonexistent offers.

      FTR, the girls I’ve heard from in the LJBF position generally understand they’re not as hot as the girls the guy is actively going after. But they say the friendship and chemistry is so wonderful, why can’t the guy fall for them anyway. Oneitis is not strictly a male experience, it’s just mostly talked about as anti-Game for guys.

  • Iggles

    @ Lokland:

    I should have made my question more clear.
    Why add it on at all, or more specifically
    why provide a very high value example to show that nothing is good enough than merely saying that nothing is good enough without the benchmark?

    Because (most) men seem keen to rank things. By pointing out I don’t make exceptions for strangers — not even the hottest ones — I’m merely pointing out I don’t mindfuck men across the board who are strangers.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    INTJ wrote:

    But most girls aren’t like you were though. Most girls tend to friend-zone guys who actually take the time to get to know them first. Thus, by the time they actually discover the “unique” personality, they are already viewed as “just friends”.

    “Just friends” is a rejection. They got to know you; they didn’t want you. Trust me, there are many women who habour that secret crush on a male friend. It’s usually not that much of a secret.

  • Cooper

    @Susan, Hope, Lokland

    Quite frankly, I just don’t get it.

    “I think there’s a number of people you could happily spend your life with. After compatibility, it comes down to choice, and both partners need to choose every day to make it work.” -Iggles

    This is how think about. That it takes making the choice over and over. So, I don’t get why it’s so off putting about a guy wanting to choose you.

    I think women just assume a guy doesn’t know enough about them to be decided, until they themselves have become decided.

    Which is why uncertainty is so attractive.
    Cause a decided man is … Charlie.
    Susan says, don’t be Charlie.

    I can’t even put a comment together to express myself – I don’t get why ‘liking’ a girl (regardless of the stage of the relationship) robs women of their attraction so much. It’s like uncertainty has a value above all else.

    To attempt to put this to word, I think I’ll have to recall INTJ post recently that broke attraction into physical and general. (Or as I liked to think of it as physical and personal)

    “I don’t think women associate male eagerness with a desire to not have sex with other people. If anything, recall that women are suspicious of eagerness in part because it implies fickleness.”

    Maybe it should the other way around!

    I’d suggest that the guys getting oneitis are doing it over personal-attraction and not merely physical-attraction. And maybe that’s so unusual that girls assume otherwise.
    I think that the guys demonstrating an eagerness, and or seeming decided, are the ones who AREN’T fickle. Because their generally the guys operating on personal-attractions, not physical.
    I think male physical-attraction is fickle.
    So, the guys that seem uncertain are probably operating primarily on their physical attractions.

    I doubt anyone gets a bit of what I’m trying to say.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      I think women just assume a guy doesn’t know enough about them to be decided, until they themselves have become decided.

      Women do take more time, for the simple reason that sex has a higher cost for us, and we do not (should not) have sex until we have decided. If you decide to offer commitment before we decide to have sex, that is not ideal. The sexes should try and maintain equilibrium, with neither party being way out in front of the other. Han Solo’s cat and dog metaphor explained this well.

      Which is why uncertainty is so attractive.
      Cause a decided man is … Charlie.
      Susan says, don’t be Charlie.

      No, Charlie is the man who pleads, “don’t abandon me” during sex. He’s also the man whose girlfriend avoids sleeping in a bed with him, and he responds by eagerly holding out his hand for her dirty nightguard when she appears in the morning. Charlie redeemed himself with some self-respect over the course of season 1 (though the don’t abandon me came late), but he has a long way to go. He’s described as offering “smothering love” and that is right.

      A decided man is wonderful, providing that the decision is mutual. Why is that so hard to understand?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think male physical-attraction is fickle.
      So, the guys that seem uncertain are probably operating primarily on their physical attractions.

      But Cooper, women know how visual men are, they become attracted regardless of personality, character or anything else. (Not in love, but attracted.) So when a guy comes on super strong, a woman assumes it’s strictly about her appearance or his desire for sex. Again, that was covered in the post about eagerness.

      Try and put yourself in a woman’s place for a moment. The quicker your commitment, the lower its perceived value.

      That’s just the way it is. Stop fighting it and work with it. Not showing all your cards immediately will serve you well. You’ve got to make her work for the cookie.

  • JP

    “FTR, the girls I’ve heard from in the LJBF position generally understand they’re not as hot as the girls the guy is actively going after. But they say the friendship and chemistry is so wonderful, why can’t the guy fall for them anyway.”

    You can tell them that if the guy did try to get into a relationship with them, it would fail.

    I’m speaking from experience here. It’s really not a pleasant experience for the girl.

  • Russ in Texas

    @Susan#226,

    That’s interesting, and quite similar to myself. I once expressed disdain for lesbian porn while taking a break from being “up to bat” boxing, and my reason was “if there’s not a man involved, why would I be interested?”

    I find 99.44% of porn to be dreadfully boring, but more importantly, my general opinion and sense of taste did *not* carry the salle, let me tell you. :D

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “As a New Englander, you will be happy to know that you have complete and unfettered access to kale in the market for most months of the year!”

    Rofl, that actually took a second to click.

  • JP

    “But Cooper, women know how visual men are, they become attracted regardless of personality, character or anything else. (Not in love, but attracted.) So when a guy comes on super strong, a woman assumes it’s strictly about her appearance or his desire for sex.”

    I’ve become really interested in a girl, all the while thinking, “this girl is just not that attractive. Weird.”

    So, it’s not necessarily appearance.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    INTJ

    But most girls aren’t like you were though. Most girls tend to friend-zone guys who actually take the time to get to know them first. Thus, by the time they actually discover the “unique” personality, they are already viewed as “just friends”.

    Most girls tend to friend-zone guys who force themselves to stay in the friendzone. I have seen many cases where the guy got himself out of the so-called friendzone by being assertive and telling the girl he likes her, instead of pining away in silence and never making a move. But in those cases, there was also mutual attraction, and both people were single. In a lot of the oneitis cases, the guy is pining after a girl who has a boyfriend!

    Cooper

    I’d suggest that the guys getting oneitis are doing it over personal-attraction and not merely physical-attraction. And maybe that’s so unusual that girls assume otherwise.
    I think that the guys demonstrating an eagerness, and or seeming decided, are the ones who AREN’T fickle. Because their generally the guys operating on personal-attractions, not physical.
    I think male physical-attraction is fickle.
    So, the guys that seem uncertain are probably operating primarily on their physical attractions.

    I get what you’re trying to say. And I have seen this happen sometimes, but the “personal attraction” you’re talking about is often one way, and not nearly as deep as one might think. Unless the friendship is truly, spectacularly intimate, the guy probably doesn’t know nearly as much about the girl as he thinks he does, and he’s just projecting positive qualities onto her.

    Here is an example from my own life. There was a guy in high school who told other people that he had a crush on me — he didn’t even have the balls to tell me to my face. I had a boyfriend at the time. We had very little in common aside from the fact that we were both in the nerdy social circle, both had good grades, and sometimes talked after school as I waited for the bus. He was very Christian and believed that all nonbelievers were going to hell, and I was clearly not Christian. He didn’t know much about my personal life at all. He just thought I was mean for not reciprocating his feelings. Once again, I had a boyfriend (of over a year). I had to avoid him for the rest of high school.

    Awkward!

  • Kathy

    “. So I bought it; ‘Fannie Farmer’. I magine my disappointment when it arrived ”
    Aha ha ha ha ha ha!
    Your a hoot, Just1Z. :D

    Probably not as funny for our American friends, though, as fannie/fanny= beaver (in Oz and the UK) not butt. :D

    LOL @ Free Willy, as well.

  • Cooper

    “That’s just the way it is. Stop fighting it and work with it.”

    Never.

    I refuse to pursue girls who respond favorably to Push.

    I think it’s time I see my shadow…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      OK, but know this: If you blow it with our Flaky Friend by being too eager to commit and not eager enough to escalate sexually I am personally going to travel to Canada and slap you upside the head.

  • J

    In fact, it tends to jive with the fact that HUS has a very large collection of unicorns in the INTJ population. Maybe it isn’t so much that all boys/men were lied to their entire lives, but that certain personality types took the standard messages given to them in VERY different ways that resulted in them being super-betaized. I’m just spitballing here so feel free to shoot it full of holes.

    Actually, I think you’re on to something, Ted.

  • J

    @Kathy

    I got the fanny joke, but I alos thought he confused Fannie Farmer with Fanny Hill:

    Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure (popularly known as Fanny Hill) is an erotic novel by John Cleland first published in England in 1748. Written while the author was in debtors’ prison in London,[1][2] it is considered “the first original English prose pornography, and the first pornography to use the form of the novel.”[3] One of the most prosecuted and banned books in history,[4] it has become a synonym for obscenity.[5]
    (From Wikipedia)

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Susan wrote:

    Thank you, that just made a light bulb pop on in my brain. I’ve been baffled, and while this doesn’t explain to me why people behave the way they do, it does shed light on what their (rather ineffective) strategy is.

    Whether you like it or not, you are the mother figure of the manosphere. They want your approval. You withhold it and act in your self-interest. They get angry and act out. It’s infantile, but these are emotionally-stunted men like Rollo we’re talking about. Why else do you think Rollo comes around here with his cut-and-paste links while he calls you Aunt Giggles behind your back?

    The Red Pill is a bitter message full of uncertainty and anxiety. It says that as a man, you can never rest. You must always be competing with other men as well as your past performance. At the same time, we have a culture where masculine/feminine sexual polarity is under attack, so as a man finding motivation without a feminine counterpart is enormously challenging. At times it can be overwhelming and there’s the urge to collapse into a fetal position and try to shut the outside world out.

    Or they lash out at you because you’re a female authority figure. Notice the vast majority of the men that do attack you will self-describe as libertarian. They aren’t authority figures, they don’t accept an authoritarian/hierarchical view of the world, and they don’t understand that a Red Pill man’s job is to fight entropy and create order out of the chaos. Hence they just sit around and whine on the internet.

    Any man who wants to exert authority, i.e. have others such as a wife submit to him, must also be willing to submit to the authority of others.

  • Cooper

    *shrugs*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      I see my threats are ineffective, haha.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Lessing never intended to be a feminist, and once The Golden Notebook was embraced as a feminist tract, she spent of lot of time distancing herself and criticizing feminism.
    I got the book thinking it was about feminism when I finally read it I was like WTF?! This is not an endorsement at all. Me thinks feminist like to add any notable females into their files whether she agrees or not. I can imagine Hypatia, Ada Lovelace and company being horrified by slutwalks for example.

    So is it your theory that the guys over at MMSL are the outliers?

    I will call them more like a subgroup. They got all the risk factors to end in a bad marriage without knowing and ended up there.

    And they have nothing in common culturally, other than that they come here with the intent of working hard and doing well as immigrants.
    No to brag but usually people that immigrate have the skills to succeed but feel that in their country they will never have the opportunity to do so, hence you end up with a more or less good group of hard working people at least in the first wave. Assimilation tends to water some values for good or bad.

    As a note, I remember asking my wife (maybe fiancé at the time) whether or not she did. Her answer was the very idea is repulsing. I assumed she was telling me what I wanted to hear (because that is exactly what men were told to do).

    I’m more of a shipper than inserting myself on my romance novels. As in the story of J liking to see other couples she shares an anniversary with, if we think it on bio terms I think the herd mentality makes women prone to see other people happily pair off. After all a happily pair off woman is an ally and is very unlikely competing for our own mates and are going to produce children that might pair off with ours. So it makes sense we enjoy seeing people falling in love. For males is probably one woman less they could bang if the circumstances are right so no real benefit from seeing people forming romantic bonds, YMMV.

    I don’t think real life men’s rights groups are nearly as crazy as the online manosphere.</i.

    It doesn't matter, they still disrupt Susan's work and derail it. They do get tired eventually but it will take longer if she was recognized officially as an ally. Pack mentality and all that.

    I can’t imagine any of it requires much creativity or the intellectual horsepower to solve differential equations. It isn’t writing a novel.

    As a mother and writer I can tell you that is like writing a novel indeed. :)

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Cooper,

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ca/2013/01/dont-be-feelings-slut.html

    Read. Seduce this woman of yours. Invite her over for dinner and to watch a movie on your coach. You will, of course, pick a movie that has some sex or sexual innuendo in it. At which point you will stop watching the movie and start listening to the movie. At some point, you will slowly try to take off her pants. She may say no but that is immaterial. The important part is that you tried.

  • JP

    “Maybe it isn’t so much that all boys/men were lied to their entire lives, but that certain personality types took the standard messages given to them in VERY different ways that resulted in them being super-betaized.”

    My father was always unhappy that I was too “nice”.

    In hindsight, he simply wanted me to be more assertive.

    He certainly wasn’t lying to me; I just couldn’t wrap my head around what he was trying to tell me.

    I would probably have helped if my IQ wasn’t two standard deviations above his and the fact that we had no idea how to relate to each other.

  • Lokland

    @Coop, INTJ

    “I doubt anyone gets a bit of what I’m trying to say.”

    I can’t say whether or not the women get it but I do and your wrong.
    I haven’t spoken on the issue of the LJBF or your position on it but let me translate what the women are saying into man speak.

    At the end I’m also going to explain how you feel about it, why and what will change when you get over it.

    ————————

    You cannot fall in love with someone quickly. You can be quite certain, as I was with my wife, that they are a good person but time is necessary to measure congruence.

    The fact that you think you can speaks more in your inexperience than it does to the male style of falling in love.
    Trust me, you might love this or that girl but the second she does something totally unacceptable you’ll get an entirely new frame of view to judge them through. Those moments are instantaneous and require a sufficient amount of time before one can be reasonably assured they will not occur.

    You don’t have to trust or believe me but love without prior judgement is one incident away from heartbreak.

    Now onto what the wimminz are saying.

    They get this part:

    “You don’t have to trust or believe me but love without prior judgement is one incident away from heartbreak. ”

    They fear abandonment more than anything else. Its the female equivalent to being cuckolded. Total removal of resources and affection.

    Therefore they want to ensure that the commitment your giving them is not built on a foundation of sand but solid granite that will weather anything.

    Time is of the necessity for this. As you judge them worthy of commitment they gain the time necessary to tell whether or not your serious.

    They won’t go all in from the get go. The women who did that died out a long time ago.

    You may not think that time is required but wait till some girlfriend you have lets some other dude grab her ass or pulls a bitch move in public. Then you’ll get it.

    ————-

    Last,

    There are literally galaxies between supplicant and dominator.

    I met my wife, I could tell within seconds she was a good person, solid girlfriend/wife material.

    But when we dated, she was just a girl I enjoyed being around.
    First we enjoyed each others company, then each others body.
    We put the label of exclusivity on it mostly to make each other comfortable.

    I was not bringing her flowers, writing out little notes with hearts and crap or being a doormat.
    I was chivalrous, I paid for dates, made sure she felt safe. Cuddled.

    But I did that all from a frame which exemplified personal enjoyment.
    The same action done in two different ways can be attractive or unattractive.

    The difference is seller vs. buyer.

    Women sell sex, men buy.

    A man sells commitment. You can sell it cheap but no one wants cheap things.
    You have an expensive product why the fuck would you even other discounting it?

    Thats exactly what every woman who encounters a man who is desperate for commitment thinks.
    The natural conclusion is that your hiding something, its fake or not real or not as good as you make it out to be.

    It might be all those things but I would’t believe in a million years that an Armani could be sold in WalMart.

    You can date a woman enjoy her company and have sex with her. It will not destroy you. If you don’t like it, thats too bad. No one will believe your worth it until you act it.

    My 2 cents.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Awesome man speak there for Cooper. Thanks for translating. :)

  • Kathy

    @ Just1Z

    “I’ve got busy with an old flame.”

    Missed this earlier comment of yours, Just.
    Good stuff. Hope it all goes well for you.

    Once she been exposed to your culinary delights, (your roast beef sounds yummy ;) ) she’ll be putty in your hands, mate! :D

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Mike C…”in contrast, taking down the wooly mammoth required strategy and the ability to focus on a singular task with high adrenalin and high risk-reward.”

    True dat, but for a long time more men in the world have been involved in agriculture (and later, industry) than in hunting for a living.

    It does strike me, though, that work such as plowing, and maybe even some types of factory work, does leave one’s mind free to think about other things to a greater extent than does clerical work.

  • Kathy

    @ J
    “Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure (popularly known as Fanny Hill) is an erotic novel by John Cleland first published in England in 1748. Written while the author was in debtors’ prison in London,[1][2] it is considered “the first original English prose pornography, and the first pornography to use the form of the novel.”[3] One of the most prosecuted and banned books in history,[4] it has become a synonym for obscenity.[5]
    (From Wikipedia)”

    Thanks for that, J. That’s one I hadn’t heard of, and yes I would say that Just! 1Z probably had that novel in mind. (Ya learn something every day. :D )

    Actually, I am really just an innocent naive petal. * batters eyelashes demurely * ;)

  • Lokland

    Ohh no, the grammar was atrocious.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ted D

    HUS has a very large collection of unicorns in the INTJ population.

    There are lots of iNtuitives here, probably over 90%! Yet in the general population, iNtuitives make up maybe 25% of people.

    Lokland

    Therefore they want to ensure that the commitment your giving them is not built on a foundation of sand but solid granite that will weather anything.

    This.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland

    Ohh no, the grammar was atrocious.

    No offense, but you need this:

    http://www.virtualfarm.com/crop/images/2010/05/grammartime_your1.jpg

  • JP

    “Therefore they want to ensure that the commitment your giving them is not built on a foundation of sand but solid granite that will weather anything.

    Time is of the necessity for this. As you judge them worthy of commitment they gain the time necessary to tell whether or not your serious.”

    Giving commitment is easy when you are in love because there’s no perceived sacrifice.

    Everything is happy, wonderful, and exciting, so why would you ever want to not have that experience continue forever?

  • JP

    “You may not think that time is required but wait till some girlfriend you have lets some other dude grab her ass or pulls a bitch move in public.”

    I would love to see some examples of what you are talking about here.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    Lol probably. I get paids for thinked. Others people do me writes. So I would okay be.

  • Sai

    “Men and boys will have their revenge. It’s called Islam.”

    Why do people keep saying that? All of us ‘unbelievers’ would die, regardless of what’s between our legs.
    Wait, I shouldn’t assume things. Who here is Muslim? Help us out please.

    “A lot of men seem to view Feminism as an aberration that should have never happened. I think it was a necessary evil to break-out of some of the class-based, sex-based, etc. limitations of patriarchy.”

    A while ago somebody said it was like the French Revolution -some of the principles were good in the beginning, but nut-jobs quickly hijacked it and majorly screwed up things for everybody.

    “I can imagine Hypatia, Ada Lovelace and company being horrified by slutwalks for example.”

    Queen Elizabeth would never have stood for that shite.

    “Therefore they want to ensure that the commitment your giving them is not built on a foundation of sand but solid granite that will weather anything.”

    I agree. I’d rather the man got the chance to see many sides of me before deciding I was really the woman he wanted. It feels like listing something on eBay without mentioning all the features, or any possible flaws.

  • INTJ

    “I can imagine Hypatia, Ada Lovelace and company being horrified by slutwalks for example.”

    You don’t have to go that far back. Just take the early feminists like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, or even radicals like *gasp* Victoria Woodhull. All of them would have been horrified by slutwalks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      All of them would have been horrified by slutwalks.

      Even Betty Friedan.

  • JP

    “A while ago somebody said it was like the French Revolution -some of the principles were good in the beginning, but nut-jobs quickly hijacked it and majorly screwed up things for everybody.”

    Feminism and Slut-Walks are mikquetoast compared to the French Revolution.

    However, feminism is part-and-parcel of the Enlightenment, although much more in line with actual reality than the French Revolution.

    Robespierre was an idiot. A complete idiot.

    I wish that Danton had won. Maybe we could have avoided the Napoleonic Wars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Danton

  • ExNewYorker

    @MikeC
    “I had internalized somehow that the same behavioral template that made me an extremely successful student and model for every parent to point out to their kids would also be successful with girls. ”

    Tasmin’s post at #247 captures a lot of what I’d say happened to me as well. I , too, was a “good boy”, not causing trouble and being the “favorite” of the moms and teachers, pretty much all my life. Problem is, very few of the daughters liked that, and it was only much later that I learned that the “be a good boy” upbringing was at the base of the problem…

    Now, I’m sure I had a very different background than Mike C. and Tasmin, probably with different cultures and languages even, but in all these cases, we were pushed into internalizing behavior that had significant downsides in our adolescence and early adulthood. What got me out of that was that my empirical side finally couldn’t deny the reality I was seeing in front of me (courtesy of two cadlike younger brothers).

    There’s quite a bit of things a guy should make sure when bringing up boys. With fatherhood being so denigrated and battered in this day and age, it’s not surprising to see lots of boys having very little guidance in an environment that really doesn’t appreciate them. It’s something I will have to actively battle against when raising my future son.

    @Susan,
    Your son’s experiences in school are replicas of what my siblings and I went through as well, down to the same type of “behavioral diagnoses”. Probably what helped us cope with junior high and above was that we loved sports…and it was the one area where we could be boys without any interference and haranguing from the outside.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      What got me out of that was that my empirical side finally couldn’t deny the reality I was seeing in front of me (courtesy of two cadlike younger brothers).

      The fact that so many brilliant men were slow to process this is a clear indication how confusing and senseless it must have seemed. Always the golden boy, how could you not have made the hearts of girls flutter? You were lucky to have those brothers – most guys in that position have no way of getting the “secrets” of bad boys so easily.

      It’s something I will have to actively battle against when raising my future son.

      Do you have something you’d like to tell us? I think you would make an incredible dad.

      Probably what helped us cope with junior high and above was that we loved sports…and it was the one area where we could be boys without any interference and haranguing from the outside.

      Increasingly I believe that every single male should do sports. It doesn’t matter if it’s fencing or karate or Cross Country or the big money varsity sports. I think males need competition, and they need physical activity. That means sports. One of the great things about the all-boys school my son attended was that there was no such thing as too much physical activity. I think it played a huge role in the developing self-esteem of males. Even the kids who weren’t standouts at any sport could find something they felt good doing.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    I wholeheartedly second Lokland’s personal growth experience. Until you have seen a woman deal with adversity, you don’t truly known the strength of her character. Without trust, there isn’t love. Infatuation maybe, but that’s not the way a masculine man loves a feminine woman.

  • JP

    “Increasingly I believe that every single male should do sports. It doesn’t matter if it’s fencing or karate or Cross Country or the big money varsity sports. I think males need competition, and they need physical activity. That means sports. One of the great things about the all-boys school my son attended was that there was no such thing as too much physical activity. I think it played a huge role in the developing self-esteem of males. Even the kids who weren’t standouts at any sport could find something they felt good doing.”

    What I learned from high school sports is that I hate physical activity. So, as soon as I got to college, I quit that.

    With respect to competition, I nearly had a nervous breakdown trying to graduate valedictorian (at one point, I attacked the salutatorian because I was so angry, stressed, and sleep deprived) and was completely burnt out when I got to college and basically sick of the entire academic game.

    By the time I got to college, I was pretty much finished with life.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,
    ” You were lucky to have those brothers – most guys in that position have no way of getting the “secrets” of bad boys so easily.”

    Yes, I suppose. However, this really is something a male older role probably (father, uncle) should do. It’s one of feminism’s greatest sins…how they’ve devalued the father’s role in a family. Since it was my younger brothers who showed by example, it made it easier to dismiss their success (“only certain women fall for that”, “it’s just luck”, “it’s a phase”, etc).

    “Do you have something you’d like to tell us? I think you would make an incredible dad.”

    *Laugh*. I’ve not commented much over the last year. There’s been a lot of work stuff (most of it good), and yes, the latest stuff keeping me busy has been stuff related to my expectant wife. There have been a lot of ups and downs related to her getting pregnant this several years, but it looks like things are going well now. She’s due in early May and it’s a boy.

    Hopefully, I can help him avoid my mistakes…and make different ones at least :-)

    “Increasingly I believe that every single male should do sports. ”

    Sports is usually a good way to go. Not all boys prefer it, but you need some type of physical activity to get the juices flowing. And there’s many to choose from for different tastes. I’ll get some small soccer balls to get the young one started early :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      I am so excited for you! Congratulations to you both, that is wonderful news. I’m assuming this will be the first grandchild on your side? What fun.

  • Just1Z

    @J

    how about the Patricia Kaas’ songs being cheesy? I joked about it a week, or so, ago. Marellus got it, but I don’t think that you did (my humour is like that TBH)

    Kaas is pretty close to cheese in a couple of languages (German and Dutch spring to mind)

  • Just1Z

    …and I bought the Fannie Farmer book in full knowledge that it was a cookery book…I’m quite the amateur cook, when I’m in the mood

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve not commented much over the last year. There’s been a lot of work stuff (most of it good), and yes, the latest stuff keeping me busy has been stuff related to my expectant wife. There have been a lot of ups and downs related to her getting pregnant this several years, but it looks like things are going well now. She’s due in early May and it’s a boy.

    CONGRATULATIONS! :D
    Is there something on HUS icons that makes the participants to have boys? ;)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    ENY, congratulations! It’s such a trip to having a baby, and at the end of pregnancy, you’re just beginning!

    If I recall, your wife is Asian? I’m curious how you feel about having a mixed son.

    Anacaona, it’s (almost) 50/50 chance. :P

  • PVW

    @ J, replying to Susan?

    Dunham’s add a key black character is not surprising, but I think making him a love interest is far more realistic than suddenly adding a fifth friend, which is what I was afraid she’d do.

    Oh, I agree; a new friend added to a foursome that seems to date back to their childhoods makes no sense.

    Me: And the adding of the bl bf also seems trite, a caving to the critics, they should have held firm. Why do I say that? It is adding to a stereotypical view of a certain type of SWPL female in big cities like NY who have a checklist of nice liberal/edgy things to do: get a bl bf. Dunham’s story is what it is, the world of SWPL New Yorkers, and it has existed forever. Native New Yorkers know it fully well; why pretend?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      It is adding to a stereotypical view of a certain type of SWPL female in big cities like NY who have a checklist of nice liberal/edgy things to do: get a bl bf.

      Yes, my husband told me last night that the black bf is a conservative Republican. It’s just too predictable. That suggests to me that he will be around a short while and they’ll wind up getting rid of his character for his “bad values.”

  • OffTheCuff

    XNY/Ted:

    My older half-brother is the typical bad boy. First fucked an older girl across the street when 14, who was his babysitter, I believe. Dropped out of school, ran away from home, smokes dope, doesn’t work. Found a cute younger girl to father his kids, lots of money, a while back and moved away.

    My parents hated him, and were so glad I wasn’t like him. They made sure to raise me the opposite as him. I’m sure my teachers were similarly glad.

    So yes, the alpha as the “bad example” definitely holds true, at least for me.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Anacaona, it’s (almost) 50/50 chance.
    Yeah but so far 3 pregnancies and all of them boys kind of too much of a coincidence.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: ” I think it played a huge role in the developing self-esteem of males. Even the kids who weren’t standouts at any sport could find something they felt good doing.”

    Yeah, not everywhere. High school was superb for extinguishing the love of sport, at least in me, by forcing everyone either compete, or, requiring a high skill level (who can shoot a basket the first time?), and then totally ignoring anyone boy who wasn’t a natural.

    It was only when I got out of jail… I mean…. after my freshman year in college, where I discovered running by myself and the peace that came with it.

  • JP

    “It was only when I got out of jail… I mean…. after my freshman year in college, where I discovered running by myself and the peace that came with it.”

    Yeah. And the wonderful pain it creates in your knees that serves to relieve the mind-numbing boredom. Seven miles was my max.

    I really didn’t mind the high school sport experience. Although I was really only doing it to get into college. It was a checkbox to Greater Glory.

    Kind of like college is just a checkbox to Greater Glory.

    In fact, isn’t everything except being a Fortune 500 CEO or U.S. Senator a checkbox to Greater Glory?

  • OffTheCuff

    Seven miles, you running nerd. I was lucky to make it 30 minutes and drop the flab.

  • Joe

    @JP

    Yeah. And the wonderful pain it creates in your knees that serves to relieve the mind-numbing boredom. Seven miles was my max.

    Yeah. I hated running as a kid. I didn’t really start running for fun until I was 55 and on a weight loss kick. Before I knew it, I was addicted. It’s amazing how much an mp3 player helps with the boredom.

    Worked my way up to 5 miles, three or four times a week, then the osteoarthritis set in. My orthopedist said I could keep on running… if I wanted to enable him to buy his next car… ;)

  • Esau

    Susan at 198, responding to me at 192: “Aren’t shows that feature alpha males cleaning up with women despite being guilty of all of the above instructive? Whether it’s Mad Men, How I Met Your Mother, The Sopranos, Sex and the City or most recently the show Girls, we see dominant and outcome-independent men scoring big with women and less dominant men getting dumped left and right.”

    Yes, there does seem to be a visible thread of this in some current pop culture, I think you’re right about that. My impression is that this is a change in culture since the post-feminist 70′s-90′s, and everything you mentioned is relatively recent.

    However, as Tasmin has mentioned in the very thoughtful comment at 247 above, Its that those things [e.g. dominance and aggression] are typically not aligned with the “good” side. in pop culture, so the cultural message becomes even more confused than before! The observational truth still conflicts with the imperative; as Ted D. put it at 219: I was faced with the reality that “bad boys” cleaned up, but was constantly encouraged NOT to be a “bad boy” in any way, shape or form. Pop culture simultaneously says “This is the guy who has power, but you shouldn’t want to be him.” The result, as Mike C. said at 209, is utter confusion, a supreme cognitive dissonance which can be even more debilitating than well-intentioned lies.

    Let’s take good old Don Draper, since you mentioned Mad Men as a leading example. Can you imagine any mother alive today who would take it perfectly in stride when her 13-year-old boy announces “I want to be just like Don Draper when I grow up!” ? No; we’re allowed to admire Don’s gloss, but his tactics are strictly off-limits. Having Mad Men dangled in front of a young man today is exquisitely cruel, like telling him Yes, the key to everything you might want is right in front of you, but it’s locked behind that glass door and you’ll never get to touch it! Haha!

    What would young men really learn from watching Mad Men today? As they used to say on TV, let’s go to the videotape. Here’s a snippet from the beginning of Season 5 (warning, probably NSFW, even though the two characters are married):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKwhleQtyA

    Undeniably hot, at least judging by the Youtube commenters. So, tell me: what lesson should a young man learn from seeing this sexy bit of Don D. at his best? Here are some possibilities that come immediately to mind (these are somewhat overlapping):

    If you think you’re getting the right body language signals from a woman, then you can — and should! — go ahead and ignore what she says in her conscious voice and give her what you know she really wants instead.

    Real men, like DD, know for sure when a woman wants to be faux(?)-raped; and if you don’t also know for sure, then you must not be a real man.

    Women who parade their bodies when in private quarters with a favored male are absolutely asking for sex, regardless of how many times they say no or how much they physically struggle against it. Real men don’t let a little protest like that stop them.

    Women _want_ you to push past the first couple of “No”s, to show how strong and forceful you are, and also how excited. It’s a compliment, really, to the woman’s irresistible beauty.

    Women have spoken language but aren’t really sentient beings. Men know what women really want, better than women do themselves. Noblesse oblige.

    Or, for the country mice among us:

    Wow, bitches be crazy! at least on TV.

    So, Susan: if you think Mad Men can be a practical part of a young man’s education today, then which one of the above lessons are you really willing to endorse and include in the young men’s curriculum? Or tell us in your own words, what is the lesson here, that won’t lead directly to despicable attitudes and behaviors on a man’s part?

    So, I agree with Tasmin, Ted D. and Mike C., and possibly with ENY also: even with having “dominance wins” displayed in some pop culture, that does not make it easier for men to navigate the world, and can even make it harder. It’s something to think about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      So, Susan: if you think Mad Men can be a practical part of a young man’s education today, then which one of the above lessons are you really willing to endorse and include in the young men’s curriculum?

      I certainly do not think it should be a practical part of a man’s education – I am one of those mothers who would warn her son against such behavior. I’m simply observing that there is a lot of “red pill” knowledge around that serves to inform males what women like.

      So, I agree with Tasmin, Ted D. and Mike C., and possibly with ENY also: even with having “dominance wins” displayed in some pop culture, that does not make it easier for men to navigate the world, and can even make it harder.

      I agree with that too. But the oft-repeated claim is that men are lied to about what women really want. I’m not at all sure that’s true. I do think it’s a very difficult leap for most men to make – introducing some sort of “bad boy” element that is completely incongruent with their nature, and when they’ve seen adults disapprove of those boys their whole lives.

      Why did it work better 60 years ago? Does feminism explain it entirely?

  • J

    Actually, I am really just an innocent naive petal. * batters eyelashes demurely

    Nah, you just never searched your mom’s underwear drawer like I did. There was a whole education in there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nah, you just never searched your mom’s underwear drawer like I did. There was a whole education in there.

      I found The Sensuous Woman by J in my mom’s underwear drawer. Suddenly I saw the washing machine in a whole new light.

  • J

    how about the Patricia Kaas’ songs being cheesy? I joked about it a week, or so, ago. Marellus got it, but I don’t think that you did (my humour is like that TBH)

    Oh, I think I must have missed the comment, but I get the joke now. Kaas sounds like cheese in several Germanic languages. Clever…

  • J

    @pvw

    And the adding of the bl bf also seems trite, a caving to the critics, they should have held firm. Why do I say that? It is adding to a stereotypical view of a certain type of SWPL female in big cities like NY who have a checklist of nice liberal/edgy things to do: get a bl bf. Dunham’s story is what it is, the world of SWPL New Yorkers, and it has existed forever. Native New Yorkers know it fully well; why pretend?

    Yeah, it is trite, but as you say it happens enough IRL to be realistic. It’ll be interesting to see how it’s handled. It could be realistic or egregious, but they did cave. Maybe Lena will satirize the bl bf as a SWPL achievement.

  • Mike M.

    @Susan 326

    Thank you for mentioning the non-money sports. I’m a firm believer that everyone can be at least passably good at something – but MoneyBall may not be it.

    I always liked the story of little Lanny. He tried baseball, but couldn’t hit, catch, or throw. Tried basketball, and did OK – for a short plump kid. Did’t do well at football, either. He figured he was no good at sports. Then his father told him, “No, you just haven’t found the right sport yet.”

    So Lanny went looking for a sport that didn’t involve throwing, catching, or running. Wound up shooting rifle. And when Lanny Bassham retired from competition, he was the defending World Champion and Olympic Gold Medalist.

    Which is not too bad for someone no good at sports.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      I have heard many inspiring stories of guys who were small and couldn’t be competitive in the most popular sports, but who found their salvation in wrestling. John Irving comes to mind.

  • J

    @Deli #168

    Thank for posting this. I’ll share it with my son.

  • Robber

    Read this post just as I was boarding a flight back to Aus. V. Annoyed at lack of wifi on Qantas flights :< so only able to comment now. Though 14 hours in the air with a 4 year old isn't much fun! Thankfully my lovely new girlfriend (yes, the lawyer) was coming along to help out – her first trip across the pacific.

    Enjoying the nice warm/hot weather for my cousin's wedding today – even had a pleasant afternoon reception so we could have an early night. It was 45 degrees here a few days ago, thankfully not on the wedding day. Girlfriend was a real hit with the family – she has that very upbeat Californian charm to win them over. The US accent is also rather exotic in rural Victoria!

    Susan this post is scaring the hell out of me. My son is due to start school in SF next year. I was planNing to send him to a state (public) school just like I went to. Should I be scouting out a boys' school? He is a very headstrong and fiercely independent boy who I now fear may run headlong into a feminist educational complex.

    Also a (side) question – I've been told his name is unusual in the US (Lachlan, though we call him Lachie, pronounced LOCK-ee) and that he may find he gets a tough time for it at school. I figured SF is so multicultural that it would be just another name. Maybe not?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Robber

      Girlfriend was a real hit with the family – she has that very upbeat Californian charm to win them over. The US accent is also rather exotic in rural Victoria!

      I’m so glad that is going so well! What a milestone – bringing her to Australia. And the fact that she helps out is great – she really does sound like a keeper.

      My son is due to start school in SF next year. I was planNing to send him to a state (public) school just like I went to. Should I be scouting out a boys’ school? He is a very headstrong and fiercely independent boy who I now fear may run headlong into a feminist educational complex.

      That depends on a lot of things. I would start by trying to get some idea of what his future school is like. You might even schedule a visit and meet with the principal. Ask specifically how they do things. I know people who have been very happy with the schools in NoCal but I imagine there is a lot of variability, and we all know the state is in rough shape financially.

      Also, private school costs add up, as you are no doubt aware. You might see what schools are in the area and visit some of them as well. I did love having my son at an all-boys school. They celebrated boyhood there in a way that is not easy to find in America today.

      We started in public and pulled our son out later, so you might give public a try first. The disadvantage there is that private school spots become very difficult to secure after the entry grade. Then you’re applying with a lot of other families for the one spot made available when someone moves, etc.

      Also a (side) question – I’ve been told his name is unusual in the US (Lachlan, though we call him Lachie, pronounced LOCK-ee) and that he may find he gets a tough time for it at school. I figured SF is so multicultural that it would be just another name. Maybe not?

      I don’t think that should be an issue. Increasingly, Americans name their kids all kinds of unusual names, including lots of surnames as first names. I like the name Lachlan, I think that sounds cool. He may choose not to use the nickname at school – he’ll have time to decide that. I recall very distinctly the day my brother said he would no longer be JJ, please call him John. He was around 7.

  • Robber

    @hope “There are lots of iNtuitives here, probably over 90%! Yet in the general population, iNtuitives make up maybe 25% of people.”

    Haha once again I find myself a stranger in a strange land. I’m ISTJ but as I progressed through my studies I found myself a lone S in an almost exclusively N research and developmet world. Being educated and an S can be a lonely experience… My son seems to have his mother’s ENTP personality so I see I’m going to have my hands full.

  • http://gravatar.com/pioneervalleywoman PVW

    @J: Maybe Lena will satirize the bl bf as a SWPL achievement.

    Me: Now I don’t know if the show even reflects the reality of just seeing black people walking around just like everyone else, ie., going to the train, shopping, going to work, going into their houses.

    And the irony is that the stereotypical bl bf most likely was not what the critics intended. They probably imagined something more realistic, ie., black passersby, black co-workers, black neighbors. But these types of shows can be so sanitized, they actually miss that crucial reality about life in big cities like New York.

    So yes they are living in their bubble, but the reality is that people of color are everywhere. The interesting thing relating to arguments about gentrifiers pushing out people of color miss an important detail; they are often referring to renters.

    The longstanding black residents who are around stay until they are ready sell (to the Lena types and for a heck of a lot of money-they then move to the South or to the Caribbean, if they are immigrants) or pass the houses on to their children. Others are gentrifiers themselves.

    There was some reference up thread, I believe, to the children of African and Afro-Caribbean immigrants. Their children often become strivers who do fairly well. The parents raised their children in big cities like New York and they have houses next door to the newer Lena type residents when the latter begin to gentrify.

    Or if they don’t live there, they live in an another part of town not that far away. But once the children come back from college and professional school, they get their own places in those gentrifying neighborhoods, along with their upper middle class/ black professional friends who moved to the big city from elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      There was some reference up thread, I believe, to the children of African and Afro-Caribbean immigrants. Their children often become strivers who do fairly well.

      Those parents are often in my ESL groups, and they have very high hopes (and accompanying expectations) for their children. One thing I was surprised to find was that they are very eager to distinguish themselves as “not” African American. They perceive that culture and identification will hold their children back, and they want no help from the state either.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “I agree with that too. But the oft-repeated claim is that men are lied to about what women really want. I’m not at all sure that’s true. I do think it’s a very difficult leap for most men to make – introducing some sort of “bad boy” element that is completely incongruent with their nature, and when they’ve seen adults disapprove of those boys their whole lives. ”

    Seems to me that, when men are lied to, or the entire society provides a uniform implication coming, metaphorically, from 360 degrees, it happens in the real world. The Red Pill info you cite is quite obviously in fiction.
    So, a young guy seeing Draper do his thing might think about trying it on a woman/girl but then he would consider the real-world consequences. At best, run off, at worst, jail. Eventual surrender? Nope, that’s just on television.
    I keep asking, whose idea is the blue pill, whence the energy promoting it, and what’s the point?

  • JP

    ” Increasingly, Americans name their kids all kinds of unusual names, including lots of surnames as first names. I like the name Lachlan, I think that sounds cool. ”

    You want to avoid giving your kids names that say “do not hire me”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You want to avoid giving your kids names that say “do not hire me”.

      I remember Freakonomics had one chapter about kids’ names, and they found one boy named Shithead. Pronounced “Shi-teed.”

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. I think that unfortunate kid’s name was a misspelling of an arabic name like Shadeed or Shadid or something. One can see that from time to time.
    My son’s friends’ kids pretty much all have last names for first names. “Mason”, “Mackenzie” So forth. Our youngest granddaughter is named “Laura” because they wanted her to be unique. Nobody’s named Laura this century.

  • JP

    “I remember Freakonomics had one chapter about kids’ names, and they found one boy named Shithead. Pronounced “Shi-teed.”””

    Another one is women named “Feh-Mal-A” because at the time of birth, the mother decided to list the name of the girl baby as “female” not knowing that was a gender, not a name.

    Also, one of the attorneys in my office pointed out that there was a woman who kept having to correct people on her name. It was written “La-A”.

    Apparently, you pronounce it as “La-dash-a” because “the dash don’t be silent”.

    There’s some mathematical theory out there about naming conventions and entropy, but I’m not going to look it up because I’m tired.

  • Sai

    Re: DO NOT HIRE
    http://www.cadred.org/Media/Images/Image/149055/

    I’ll see your La-A and raise you…
    Well, my mother is a teacher, and I used to handle mail, and so I have had a lot of material to contribute.
    http://bellofthesouth.blogspot.com/2004/12/ghetto-baby-names.html?m=1
    Why would a loving parent name their kid after alcohol or an STD?

  • Ian

    “Increasingly I believe that every single male should do sports. It doesn’t matter if it’s fencing or karate or Cross Country or the big money varsity sports. I think males need competition, and they need physical activity. That means sports. ”

    Cosigned, and I’ll go a step further – men and boys need aggressive conflict, need to fight. Fighting is as natural as eating and mating in animal behavior, sex and violenceare close neighbors in the brain.

    Talking to a woman recently, we pegged a specific man’s sexless personality, despite his handsomeness, as his inability to do violence to another man. She’d rather her bookshelf filled with vampires and sadistic businessmen. Mating is low-brain, not high-brain – a collaborative society lacks the spice of social dominance.

    Along with sports, I’d recommend rushing into management, even if it’s just something like retail, the next job after entry-level. Management is constant social conflict – it’s a crash-course in social dynamics and dominance hierarchies. Leaders serve a purpose, most people follow gladly, many people (usually SJ-types) are almost aimless without a strong authority.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Mike C

    But the oft-repeated claim is that men are lied to about what women really want. I’m not at all sure that’s true. I do think it’s a very difficult leap for most men to make – introducing some sort of “bad boy” element that is completely incongruent with their nature, and when they’ve seen adults disapprove of those boys their whole lives.

    That definitely describes my upbringing. I don’t think I was necessarily lied to, but I do think several things conditioned me to be a more feminized, docile version of my “natural self.”

    Like Mike C, Tasmin, ENY, and others, I was always very successful in school & sports, loved by teachers & parents, and even popular among my peers… But had zero success with girls.

    The incongruency was unbelievably confusing to me. And even when I did get a grip on reality in college, it took a few years to fully change my core personality and behaviors that had been conditioned in me since kindergarten.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Last comment was in response to Susan

  • ExNewYorker

    @Anacaona,

    “CONGRATULATIONS!
    Is there something on HUS icons that makes the participants to have boys? “

    I think it all dates back to when Susan changed the HUS theme bar …

    @Hope,
    “If I recall, your wife is Asian? I’m curious how you feel about having a mixed son.”

    Well, there were a lot of up and downs getting there, so I think I’m very happy :-)
    My wife is Asian, and her side of the family has a lot of relatives, some of which are also mixed, so it won’t be like he’s the only one. Plus, being in the Bay Area makes that not atypical. I’m glad that both sides of our family get along well…that’s probably where a lot of mixed race marriages have issues…

    @Susan,
    “I’m assuming this will be the first grandchild on your side? What fun.”

    Yes, on my side of the family, it’s the first granchild. My mother is chomping at the bit to plan her visits…

  • J

    They probably imagined something more realistic, ie., black passersby, black co-workers, black neighbors.

    Actually, they do show black passerbys and partygoers in the background. I think there was a black doorman who had a funny reaction shot to Lena in the first episode. At a job in a law office, she had a Hispanic coworker who put too much eyebrow pencil on her. In the final episode of last season, some Hispanic girls make fun of her belt; it had been the object of some humor earlier in the episode.

    The parents raised their children in big cities like New York and they have houses next door to the newer Lena type residents when the latter begin to gentrify.

    I’m not sure about the demographics of Lena’ neighborhood or exactly where in Brooklyn she’s supposed to live.

  • J

    I found The Sensuous Woman by J in my mom’s underwear drawer. Suddenly I saw the washing machine in a whole new light.

    LOL. I want to emphasize that I’m not the same J.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    ExNewYorker, glad to hear that. In my case, only his family is nearby, which has been good. My mother-in-law was a great help when our boy was born. You might run into some issues, but it sounds like probably not!

    Susan, private school is probably no more expensive than daycare. According to this, the average cost of daycare is $11,666 per year. The tuition for private school here is about $12k per year.

    http://www.babycenter.com/0_how-much-youll-spend-on-childcare_1199776.bc

  • OffTheCuff

    Depends where you live. Day care and private school is freak-nasty expensive in MA. If I sent mine there, I’d have nothing left for food (1200/mo) or housing (2000/mo).

  • J

    @ENY

    Did I congratulate you on the baby? If not, congratulations!

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  • INTJ

    @ JP

    Yeah. And the wonderful pain it creates in your knees that serves to relieve the mind-numbing boredom. Seven miles was my max.

    Run on the balls of your feet. It absorbs the impact and is easy on your knees.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Increasingly I believe that every single male should do sports. It doesn’t matter if it’s fencing or karate or Cross Country or the big money varsity sports. I think males need competition, and they need physical activity. That means sports.

    Maybe good for most guys…wasn’t good for me. I was an incredible wrestle and a starting O-Line at 130 pounds because I was very good at blocking under-classmen.

    Wasn’t enough for me, I guess.

    Maybe things weren’t all that good 60 years ago. Maybe, much like male performance in the economy has declined so much, mating performance can also deteriorate because the the situation has changed and exposed old weaknesses.

  • ExNewYorker

    @J
    “Did I congratulate you on the baby? If not, congratulations!”

    Thank you. We’ll empathize with you more, since you have 2 boys :-)

  • szopen

    @VD and tedious, mundane job

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/magazine/the-autism-advantage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Autism is quite often declared “male behaviour driven to the extreme”.

    In my experience, females make great supervisors, secretaries, coordinators etc – though I keep hearing that “females are better at multitasking” is a myth, somehow I am constantly seeing that in action.

    About the boys in school:
    Bertrand, Pan, The trouble with boys: social influences and gender gap in disruptive behaviour, 2011

    The authors claims that the big reason of the gap are the divorces and being raised by single mothers – somehow boys seems to be more vulnerable to impaired environment than girls. Boys raised by single mothers are, IIRC, two times more likely (than normal boys) to show problems with behaviour and worse grades, even after correcting for SES and all other factors. Normal boys still have 10% more (than girls) problems with behaviour (again, IIRC)

  • Ted D

    Wow. This entire thread has been lightbulb after lighbulb for me this morning, so there is a lot for me to unpack and digest. But a few things right away:

    “Therefore they want to ensure that the commitment your giving them is not built on a foundation of sand but solid granite that will weather anything.”

    I get this. The thing is, *I* am a very picky, choosy, and hard to please asshole when it comes to personal relationships. I get that a woman that DOES NOT KNOW me won’t know that, but I often forget it at the time.

    I’ll say it again: IF I am spending any quality time with you, you have already passed a litany of tests. Oh for sure, you had no idea you were being tested, and probably don’t realize just how long I’ve had you on my radar before we even locked eyes, but I’ve already filtered you down from the other 98% of people I will continue to ignore. Yes, I AM that arrogant when it comes to filtering, and in my entire life I’ve only truly been burned two or three times by letting someone through that should have been filtered out. I am selective, I just do the vast majority of my filtering before I utter a single word to you.

    “Until you have seen a woman deal with adversity, you don’t truly known the strength of her character. “

    This make sense. However, if I’m given the opportunity to watch someone over the course of days or weeks before actually engaging them (which IS my preferred method. Watch and observe them interacting with their friends in social setting) I can get a damn good “feel” for a persons character without any direct interaction. As someone that does NOT naturally “get” social interactions, I can learn a TON about a person by watching them interact with others. There is a lot of character information that can be quickly gleaned simply by watching people interact with friends and co-workers. I guaranty that by the time I start getting friendly with someone, I’ve already got a good bead on their temper (and how they handle it if possible), their general outlook on life (are they positive or negative in general), and possibly a whole host of other details. I study people I’m interested in like some people study animals in the wild. It is also the way I learned to “appear” to be normal in social situations, and why I can fake my way through them.

    Do I know if I love a woman by date 3? Hell no! But, by then I’m damn sure I *could* love her, and I’m already confident enough to go exclusive to find out for sure. Because when it comes time for that, I don’t want any distractions, and it would be difficult for me to “spin plates” when my initial filtering method is remote and so time consuming.

  • Sara

    I am a teacher, and I can tell you that the main problem boils down to bad parenting. Whether dad isn’t around, or else in an enabling pushover, kids with good parents will always strive to do their best. Kids these days are spoiled, and their parents treat them like “friends” and not children. The entitlement in these children is off the charts. The generation coming up is going to be in for a rough shock when they get into the real world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sara

      I don’t doubt what you say about bad parenting, entitlement among kids, etc. But how do you explain the difference between test scores and grades? Is this not clear evidence that teachers are biased against boys?

  • Sara

    Susan,
    I typed out a long response to you, but my answer disappeared into cyber space. Short version: I don’t discount what you said. You are right. But until parents start caring about their child’s education, all of this is moot. Public school was never meant to be a glorified baby sitting service, but to many parents, that’s all we are to them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sara

      I’m sorry your comment got eaten, it’s happened to me many times and I know how frustrating it is!

      Public school was never meant to be a glorified baby sitting service, but to many parents, that’s all we are to them.

      I don’t doubt this for a minute. I recall when my kids were little the school had a campaign about Core Values. Teachers were trying to teach kids moral values. I thought that was totally inappropriate to ask that of teachers. That is a parent’s job. Sure, school can and should reinforce those values, but we cannot expect educators to instill good character in children. Their job (your job) is to teach academic material.

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  • Puzzled

    I am a teacher of boys, at a private school. I am lucky enough to be at a school where I have almost complete educational autonomy. I despise hearing, from any teacher, the phrase “bright but lazy” or any modification thereof. If the student is unmotivated to do your work, perhaps it is because your work has no value to it? If you want a student to be more interested in what you teach, teach something more interesting!

    Take physics, for instance. All kinds of fun, exciting, interesting things happen in physics. Yet our high school students are stuck spending a year rolling a ball down a hill and measuring its speed. Then we get mad at them and give them bad grades if they don’t follow the arbitrary rules we gave for lab write-ups, and insist that each night, instead of going outside to play, they do large numbers of identical problems – which are actually math exercises but called physics problems.

    Consider also math, where we make them learn PEMDAS and All Students Take Calculus, and remember that they learned the area of a circle on April 2 (A=pr^2) – instead of showing them how understandable math actually is.

    Bottom line – if the student is uninterested or unmotivated, it is not their fault – it is the teacher’s fault.

    I’m often told “well, yes, but they will need to simply do what they are told in the workplace.” I respond that the liberal telling me so (it always is) should be ashamed of their role in supporting wage slavery, not bragging about it.

  • HanSolo

    Interesting article that sites a study or two on the issues discussed here.

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/eliminating-feminist-teacher-bias-erases-boys-falling-grades-study-finds

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  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    I graduated from a large university that is the largest producers of teachers in a large state. All the Education majors I met were women (except one, and he left the field) and all of them were intellectually mediocre.

    After I graduated I still encountered women teachers and women principals…it was appalling. They were so bad (and didn’t know it) I finally decided the public schools should be closed down.