Thanks to all the readers who sent me the link to the Alex Williams’ New York Times article The End of Courtship? this past weekend. The article accurately lays out how at least some people conduct their romantic lives (sex lives?) today.
A musician asked Shani, 30, out on a date for Friday night. She next heard from him at 10:30 p.m. on Friday, at which point he texted “want to meet up?,” clearly implying she was welcome to cab over to a bar where he was already hanging out with college buddies.
Shani declined the offer, politely, which is more than I would have done. To the Times, however, she was more open about her frustration.
Dating culture has evolved to a cycle of text messages, each one requiring the code-breaking skills of a cold war spy to interpret.
It’s one step below a date, and one step above a high-five.
There’s more going on here than a shift in the culture. There is no universe in which asking someone out on a date does not mean setting aside a specific time for the two of you to become better acquainted. It’s a signal of intent to prioritize getting to know another person. In contrast, texting late in the evening to say “hey” or “sup” is a move, perhaps calculated, to seem just slightly more than indifferent. Often these throwaway texts imply that you’re doing someone a favor by acknowledging that they crossed your mind while you were out having sooooo much fun.
Dating is fine. Meeting up is fine. Both have their place. But meeting up is not dating, and this guy pulled a bait and switch. Pretty douchey.
Raised in the age of so-called “hookup culture,” millennials — who are reaching an age where they are starting to think about settling down — are subverting the rules of courtship.
Instead of dinner-and-a-movie, which seems as obsolete as a rotary phone, they rendezvous over phone texts, Facebook posts, instant messages and other “non-dates” that are leaving a generation confused about how to land a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Donna Freitas, a religion professor and expert on hookup culture:
The problem is that “young people today don’t know how to get out of hookup culture. In interviews with students, many graduating seniors did not know the first thing about the basic mechanics of a traditional date. They’re wondering, ‘If you like someone, how would you walk up to them? What would you say? What words would you use?’
The truth is, dating has never died in the post-college scene. It can’t – without some form of courtship available to men and women in their 20s, no one would marry. Both sexes want the opportunity to date in their search for a life partner, and the majority wants to avoid people with a casual view of sex (and the sexual history to match). So they figure it out.
There appears to be a bifurcation among the 20-somethings, and this is showing up even in online dating. Most people who strike up a connection on a dating site will arrange to meet in person for a first date, then schedule more dates if all goes well. The process continues until it is clear that the pair has the potential of being a real couple, at which point they begin introducing one another to friends, showing up together in groups, etc.
A minority, however, is seeking some continuation of the hookup scene that they presumably experienced in college, where getting acquainted between 11 pm and 2 am is sufficient grounds for hopping into bed together after the bar closes. That constitutes a date.
Nick, 25 and Julie, 22, connected online and arranged to meet for a drink. The evening went well and at the end of the date, Nick told Julie he’d love to “explore this great city with you.” Julie expected more dates for two, so she was surprised when she next heard from Nick late one Friday night about two weeks later. He called and said, “Where you at? I’m drinking in your neighborhood. Wanna meet up?” Julie was very interested in seeing Nick again, so she talked a friend into being her wingman and grabbed a cab to the bar where Nick was hanging out. When the bar closed, Nick suggested they go back to his place to hook up. Julie declined. The next time Julie logged into the dating site, Nick had blocked her.
These are guys who have no interest in dating. They use the word “date,” something they wouldn’t have done in college, because they know that the 20-something landscape is more varied than the college culture. They’re simply modifying the script in hopes of getting the same end result – a no-strings encounter after a brief period of acquaintance. I’m not sure why they simply don’t advertise for casual encounters up front, but increasingly men who want to avoid relationships are using the word date. And that’s confusing for women.
The most important strategy women have at their disposal when dating in their 20s is the extensive use of filters. You must ruthlessly filter out men who are not offering what you want. Which is a real date. Men are counting on you not asking too many questions, like, “Hey Nick, how does meeting you at this dive at midnight count as exploring this great city?”
When people don’t want much out of a connection, they don’t put much effort in. If a 20-something guy is open to a relationship with the right girl, he’ll go the dating route. Real dates. Courtship. It’s still the best way for two people to get together and fall in love. If he’s looking primarily to get sex with a variety of people, he may use the word date, but his effort will be minimal and the “dates” will be late night rendezvous.
Referring to the use of technology, especially texting, to facilitate dating, Williams says:
In the context of dating, it removes much of the need for charm; it’s more like dropping a line in the water and hoping for a nibble.
Not only that, it’s not unusual for guys to send out mass texts, or at least texts to more than one girl at once. Kristen got a text from Jake around midnight one Saturday night, a month or so after he’d broken up with her. It said, “I need you here now.” Kristen didn’t reply but happily ditched her friends to catch a cab to Jake’s apartment. When she got there, she rang his bell but he didn’t buzz her in, telling her it was not a good time after all. He asked her to “Just go. Please.” Kristen refused to leave without some explanation, and while she was standing there another girl arrived and pressed Jake’s doorbell. It turned out she was Jake’s new love interest, and he’d sent the same text to both of them. Given a choice, he preferred new to old.
Williams also mentions the pervasive Millennial condition known as FOMO – fear of missing out. They don’t want to settle too soon on a person for a relationship when online dating, speed dating and group hangs all create opportunities to meet many new people in a short time. Dating becomes a perpetual audition, and keeping things informal – and cheap – is a pragmatic way of not investing too much in someone when someone just a bit better might be right around the corner.
Of course, there are real economic concerns as well. The recession, a sluggish job market and student debt all have Millennials feeling financially insecure. Add in the fact that young women in cities outearn their male counterparts, and traditional dating becomes awkward at best. Still, it’s happening. I see young couples out on dates every time I go out in the evening. Nearly all the women I know who graduated from college two years ago are in serious relationships or actively dating. Like Shani, they decline invitations for booty calls masquerading as dates.
If you want a meaningful relationship, you must filter guys according to the degree of effort they put in. Garbage in, garbage out. There’s nothing wrong with hanging out in social groups, or meeting up with someone you’d like to know better. But that initial interest should graduate quickly into real dates. Focus on men who are willing to put in the kind of effort you’re willing to put in. You can help them out by encouraging their interest, initiating some plans, and sharing the expense of dating.
Courtship will endure, because people want romance. By filtering out the guys who don’t do real dates, you make yourself available for the ones who do.
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“It turned out she was Jake’s new love interest, and he’d sent the same text to both of them. Given a choice, he preferred new to old. ”
I don’t think that the problem being described in this vignette is hook-up culture.
I think that the problem here is that Jake may have some sort of non-disclosed cognitive dysfunction.
Susan, I think you’re missing a pretty important ingredient here. The women in these stories almost are all very attracted to these men. These men have options and thus can act very douchy, just as a very beautiful woman has options and can also act very douchy (being wishy-washy, flaky and so on). Complaining about their douchiness isn’t going to solve anything. The attraction is primal in both cases and their behavior is only what they can get away with.
“When people don’t want much out of a connection, they don’t put much effort in.”
I would phrase it differently. When people think the expected value of a connection is low, they don’t put much effort in.
She could be the most attractive woman you’ve met in a while, but if most of your recent dates have been time consuming, costly and led nowhere you might start cutting back on your expenditure per date.
As for rudeness, the behavior of the young men in the NYT article and your examples suggests imbalances favoring males in the population sex ratios of the respective locales. How do women behave when the sex ratio in their dating market favors them?
While decent advice for girls, basically telling them stop giving away the milk for free, the flip-side of this advice is awful for guys. Until girls collectively start to take this advice, (most don’t and are still in hookup culture) it would be awful for even a relationship minded guy to try to “traditional date.” I’m willing to bet Julie turned down tons of guys attempting to take her out on a traditional date to chase Nick, the guy who wouldn’t. Of course that question was never asked.
Nothing scares off a girl, yes even a good girl, more quick nowadays more than trying to set up anything that looks like a traditional date. (Older crowd excluded of course). Want to get rejected even from a girl who’s into you, ask her to a “dinner” “movie” etc. You only can do this post physical relationship in 2013.
Until women start taking your advice, the best odds of success for a guy is to keep it light, away from the notion of a “date”, and screen for relationships usually after sex or deep physical contact.
Not to say this is a license to be a douche and block girls who didn’t sleep with you like Nick, I’m just saying, attempting to do the polar opposite of Nick is no the solution either.
From the Trenches.
There is no courtship.
There is no dating.
There is only hooking up. Why can’t people understand this?
Mikey nailed it…
I had a couple of friends e-mail me links to that article and the general reaction was:
1) The forthcoming book that was mentioned in the article—”The End of Sex…”—sounded very self-absorbed, as it appears to implicitly assume that disgruntled young women represent all that matters in the current generation. The POV *sounds* heavily biased towards those women and to judge the culture solely based on how well it is meeting perceived female needs.
2) Even if they were so inclined, a lot of young guys just can’t afford to spend lavish amounts of money on traditional dates, because the costs of personal, independent living are quite high. Young women are also doing comparatively quite well in terms of education and economic accomplishments, so the dominant logic of the traditional date now can seem like a “heads I win, tails you lose” game against men. This is simply an inevitable side effect of feminist progress on the schooling/jobs front.
3) Because people are marrying later and later, they are more psychologically dependent on their social circles of friends than they were in the past. Thus it is important, especially for men, to see how a new relationship will fit within an existing social web. This same story seems to be coming up again and again in all of these vignettes—young men are very conscious of how a new girl is perceived by their tribal bands of close friends, and will disqualify an otherwise-attractive girl if she lacks cultural-fit.
Perhaps there is an equivalent of this for women, but IME it doesn’t seem to be as prevalent on the female side.
4) Dating sites and Facebook place such emphasis on personal lifestyle expression that activities-compatibility is far more important than it was in the past. People are less willing to compromise on this issue.
Thus, a guy may want to see if a woman wants to meet him out at a sports bar or live music venue or whatever because he is operating from the notion that she is a “cool girl” who does in fact enjoy those same activities. If the girl secretly hates football or whatever, then she will not be cool from his—and his friends’—POV, and they may not be right for each other from a lifestyle-convergence standpoint.
If you are 19 or 20 and meeting your future spouse, you probably have not had time to develop much in terms of lifestyle design and you could heavily influence each other and evolve together. But if you are 30+ when you are looking for your future spouse, you will have relatively entrenched interests and possibly won’t be looking to compromise much where they are concerned.
5) Summing it all up, it seems like traditional, male investment-heavy courtship now takes place post-sex but pre-engagement-type commitment, rather than taking place pre-sex (then again, in the historical past engagement was traditionally presumed to come with sex, so sex + lifelong commitment came as more of a package deal). Sex has been separated from marriage by approx. 10-12 years, and economically-besieged young men just can’t afford to make significant investments in all of these “serial monogamy” relationships that are, for whatever reason, failing to lead to marriage.
Why set up a date when modern women are so flakey?
This way you can avoid the time waste by inviting them to stuff that’s already happening. That way, if they don’t show up, nothing’s lost.
There is nothing unusual about Jake. Unfortunately.
“Nothing scares off a girl, yes even a good girl, more quick nowadays more than trying to set up anything that looks like a traditional date”.
Ahem. Depends entirely on the vibes he’s giving off. If he’s given a desperate vibe, I’m sure. But in that case, there is nothing more to do either way.
I will always be skeptical of a guy suggesting “drinks” or, God forbid, something even more casual for a first date. The first dates I’ve been on (which have gone further) have been dinners. In a proper restaurant. Candles and all.
A movie for a date will always be bad btw. No communication whatsoever.
@Toz
Why are you sure of that? Shani said no thanks, Julie said no thanks. It’s true they were initially attracted, but neither chose to hook up with the guy. Kristen and Jake had been in a serious relationship for two years – Jake was no player.
First, people with lots of options can act douchey, but not all do. There are many attractive men who seek committed relationships in their 20s – in fact, the number of guys looking to play the field after their mid 20s are generally best avoided for relationships anyway. So filtering for douchey behavior saves time and energy. Women should “Next” guys after one shady move, period.
For the record, I have no problem with men Nexting women after one flakey move.
“There is nothing unusual about Jake. Unfortunately.”
Is there some sort of internal logic to having both women appear at the same time that I’m missing?
I mean, wouldn’t you *first* see if New Girl shows up and *then* text Old Girl?
Or text them 60 minutes apart or something?
That’s really what I was talking about.
I kind of understand if you were someone who sent out *mass* texts because you are well into the world of the commodity and there’s really no question with what’s going on there.
Even if you didn’t care about their actual feelings, you would avoid the “please go away” aspect of this where you have only two women involved.
Also, FOMO leads to MO.
@Anne Advising guys to take girls out only on candle lit dinners as a first date is a recipe for celibacy. While you may feel you are entitled to such fancy dinners (great for you), my advice was to guys. It would be a poor investment money and time wise, let alone the massive rejection you’d likely get for having that as your opening move with girls in their 20′s.
I’m not saying it’s not right for you, perhaps it is, but again we are at the cross-roads of my earlier point, what is good for YOU by setting standards is not good for guys to comply with as a strategy for THEM.
Solid point on desperation though, if he has a non desperate frame, he can do much of anything, however, most guys who lead off with fancy dates do not have such frame usually, that’s why they lead with the fancy dinner.
That article saddens me.
You’d be surprised how willing women are to go on dates with men that they are actually attracted to. I think this is the caveat here. I’ve only ever rejected date offers from men that I wasn’t romantically/sexually attracted to. Whenever a good-looking man with a good head on his shoulders has asked me out on a date, I jumped at the chance for it.
I see this problem involving 3 major components.
1. Women reject dates from men that they are not attracted to.
2. Women accept dates from men they are attracted to. The problem is, however, that most objectively/universally attractive men have options and can utilize them. If they can get sex without having to be in a relationship, there is barely any incentive for them to date or be monogamous. They typically end up falling in two camps. These attractive men either focus their attentions on plowing through willing women, or they genuinely want relationships and pursue women of equal caliber. The women who are only worth hooking up with, viewed as lower caliber in the eyes of the attractive men, feel cheated and jaded. They can’t get the men they want to date them. Some of these women accept the hooking up scenarios. They would rather hookup with the man than not be with him at all. Other women decide to reject the hookup offers. That still results in them being single, however
3. The non-objectively/non-universally attractive men see the hotter guys getting way more romantic/sexual attention from women. They emulate their behaviors, hoping to reap the same rewards. Moderate success can be had that way, which is better than the practically non-existent success the men experienced before. The incentives drive the behavior, and these men take on the “hooking up script” in order to have better results.
@Jonathan
But doesn’t the level of effort reflect what the party wants? A man looking for casual sex might think the value of the connection is potentially high, however briefly. There are some men determined to avoid getting “stuck” with one chick, so rather than expending 100% of their effort on one woman, they may choose to spend 10% of that effort on 10 women. But that’s their maximum value equation.
We know that the sex ratio effectively drives the “price” of sex. In most cities, today, the sex ratio of college educated males to females is low, so those males do have options. However, as males age it becomes more likely that they will consider commitment because it fulfills an important life goal. They may still have more options, and they may filter aggressively while dating. That’s fair – women may have to go on more first dates, try harder to get dates, including initiating them, etc. A woman seeking a committed partner cannot afford to waste one moment with men who show every sign of remaining indefinitely single.
I don’t doubt for a moment that women can be extremely rude in their dealings with men. In fact, no doubt there are roughly equal numbers of women who have no intention of settling down, but go on real dates for the validation, social life, and sex. We’ve heard stories here at HUS of men who woke up the morning after a hookup hoping for a relationship, only to have the woman make it clear it was a one-time thing.
Men court the court-worthy. Thus the dearth of courting…
.
I don’t see how inviting a friend out to a social circle gathering constitutes a “douchey” move.
I am going to stop inviting friends out to friend-gatherings, but I’m not sure how they are going to be friend-gatherings with no friends? I am much more comfortable with this script than some notion of “dating” so some girl I barely know and PROBABLY doesn’t have much interesting in her life can feel like a princess or whatever.
Social gathering allows me to learn a little more about her and add her to my social circle without me having to invest too much, and vice versa.
Blocking her on the dating website would constitute a douchey move, but that’s not exactly what ALL guys do.
@Mikey
But we already know that the vast majority of women in college do not regularly participate in hookup culture. Most students try it, but most don’t have sex during a hookup and the number of sexual partners for the vast majority of college students is 1-2. Most women can’t wait to get out of college in hopes that they can finally go on a real date.
I think this is true in college, but it is definitely not true after. I’ve been amazed as the young women I know have gone from graduation with zero dates, to dating regularly two years out. Some of the women I know who are dating in their early 20s have been asked out by men for real dates in the following locales:
gym
work
social circle and mixing of friend groups, i.e. work friends and college friends meet at brunch
blind dates set up by coworkers
online dating
“The incentives drive the behavior, and these men take on the “hooking up script”
Its like an inflationary trap
.
@ Jonathan,
“How do women behave when the sex ratio in their dating market favors them?”
When I was in college the guy across the hall told me he had been turned down ten times in a row asking women to dance at a nightclub. Another told me a woman told him, “You’re about a foot too short” when he asked her to dance.
I’ve never had these things happen to me but I’m not very sympathetic to a lot of women after the many stories men have told me.
@JoeSchmo
True, but if they do, nothing much is gained either. At best, you’ll be in a group situation like a party, a bar, or at a concert. Then what? You meet someone and hit it off, what’s the next move? Casual sex or date. Pick one.
Sue: “They’re simply modifying the script in hopes of getting the same end result – a no-strings encounter after a brief period of acquaintance.”
Unfortunately, you are not a mind reader. Yes, these men might be looking for casual only, but far more likely know that courtship comes *after* attraction is established. They’re just being, what’s the word… selective with their commitment. Don’t wanna give it away to easy, now.
I can’t blame the guy who blocked her. After you’ve gone on a hundred “dates” that turn out to be nothing, he’s following PrivateMan’s method to the letter.
Sue: ” I’m not sure why they simply don’t advertise for casual encounters up front, but increasingly men who want to avoid relationships are using the word date. And that’s confusing for women.”
As above, you make a huge assumption men only want casual. These guys are just dual-ladder guys. Short of swinger sites, putting “casual only” on your profile is certain death. The time to divulge that is early, but not THAT early.
Remember, men adapt to what actually works.
But, other than that, solid advice for the women. Insist on actual dates!
@BB
Fair enough. As I said, I think there’s a place and purpose for meeting up. Then what? She comes out to the bar to watch the Pats win (yeah!) and they get along really well. Does he escalate sexually or attempt courtship? If he does escalate sexually, and she complies, then he’s very possibly dealing with a promiscuous woman, which may or may not knock her out of the running for commitment.
I’m not done reading your post yet and I had to comment!
This made me see RED:
What a P.O.S.!!!
Seriously, Kristen is much better off without that jerk! Ugh.
@Sassy6519 J
It’s unfortunate but true. It’s not a function of women just rejecting guys who they are not attracted to. I’m sure many guys here have many stories of asking a girl out date wise, getting rejected, only to hook up with her later with no investment. Happens all the time.
It has become a function of tactics. Asking for a date is a demonstration of lower value basically, the fancier the date, the more try hard it looks to girls. Now, like I said, as women get older and become more in tune with seeking relationships, they are more into finding dates and agreeing to them. But, my advice pertains to guys looking for girls in their 20′s. It’s a bad tactic, a bad investment to take this approach.
And it shouldn’t be dismissed with notions of “I’m not like that” or “only immature girls are like that”, guys who are pounding the pavement (non PUA’s) will tell you this is the reality of the world.
In other words guys learn to adjust to get results (no connotations of a date) or they die repeatedly on the alter of idealism of the way things should be.
I personally use the social gathering/ non date date as a method, does not need to be outright PUA style booty call, but any girl demanding a fancy date initially is a giant red flag anyways.
I have definitely gotten away from calling anything a ‘date’. I do think there’s more anxiety surrounding dating now than there used to be. The fast pace of physical escalation is probably part of it, lack of experience in dating another, but the loss of dating ethics is probably the biggest problem IMO.
I would generally say that dating ethics is just the expected behaviour of the man and the woman in the field of dating. The problem is, there are no rules, there is no script to follow anymore. Does the guy pay for everything? Does the woman split the bill? It’s not agreed on in the general population, so we have the problem that there’s a lot of potential for conflict during the date over whether to be traditional or not. For a guy, trying to be dominant and getting her preferences wrong in terms of dating etiquette can be a deal-breaker, and that’s really unfair to men.
From my personal experience, it’s much easier to date a woman once you can make educated guesses about what those preferences are, because no woman will ever tell you. As such, there’s a lot of value in the information gathering offered by casual interaction before you progress to date 1,2,3…
“I think this is true in college, but it is definitely not true after. I’ve been amazed as the young women I know have gone from graduation with zero dates, to dating regularly two years out. Some of the women I know who are dating in their early 20s have been asked out by men for real dates in the following.”
This ignore my point, your advice for women is not the same as advice for men. Asking girls if they go on dates is not an evaluation of its effectiveness for men. Heck when I ask girls I know who are married, they still give the advice they love dates and recommend them as a strategy even though they readily admit their husband got them not using that method. It’s almost impossible to get a woman to admit dates are not a good strategy, because it benefits them and feeds into a romantic idealism.
It’s better to ask the guys what works for them. They’ll tell you asking out for formal dates is a losing bet. It is default game guys are taught since day one, if it worked so well betas would be king of the jungle.
Like I said, I’m not advocating “college hook up culture”, but to say formal dating is the answer is leading guys into a world of pain. The answer is something in between which most successful guys calibrate to.
@JP
Ah, now I see your point. In this story, Kristen didn’t respond to the text, she just got herself over there. Presumably, Jake got a response from New Girl, no response from Old Girl, and figured he was in business. When Old Girl Kristen showed up, he had a problem. Meanwhile, it never even occurred to Kristen that he had extended the same invitation to someone else. Why would it?
Indeed.
@Mikey
I’m with you re fancy dinners. A guy is wise to keep monetary investment to a minimum until he feels sure that a woman is attracted. While I wouldn’t go so far as some – she buys her own Starbucks lattes until she puts out – I think that it’s fine to be creative and come up with dates that are not terribly expensive. Without a doubt, my best dates were cheap ones. Even after I was married, my husband and I had so much fun in NY doing free things. We were relatively poor, just starting out and with student loans, and we did so many fantastic things that were free. We walked everywhere, went to museums and galleries, found all sorts of ethnic dives with great food. We had adventures. We went to readings by famous writers, wine tastings, and just hung out with friends – those are where our best memories were made.
@ADBG
It doesn’t if that was the original invitation. A guy texts a girl out of the blue, “hey, what are you up to? would you like to meet up?” That’s great – the young women I know socialize that way a lot of the time. Of course it’s OK to invite someone to hang out and have a few beers.
That’s not what happened here. A guy said, “Do you want to go on a date with me Friday night?” Then he texted her at 10:30, say, “Hey, I’m in the East Village with friends, why don’t you hop in a cab and come down here?”
That was his idea of the date. She goes alone to join him in a bar at 11 pm with a bunch of his college buddies. What purpose does that serve? How well does that plan enable them to get to know one another? What does he expect when the bar closes?
@SusanWash
“We walked everywhere, went to museums and galleries, found all sorts of ethnic dives with great food. We had adventures. We went to readings by famous writers, wine tastings, and just hung out with friends – those are where our best memories were made.”
Fine with all of this after some attachment is made. I think my point got lost, it was people will read your article as advocating the anti-Nick, as some of the comments have already suggested, girls are entitled to “dates.”
In 2013, for guys, you need a low investment screen (expect flakes), coffee, etc, social meet up offers, before you get to the stages you’re talking about. You have to spin plates. (Again, a female strategy would disagree with this, a male wouldn’t) If you lead with that stuff, you’re going to get blown out many times when you didn’t need to. Lots of guys and women are reading this column instead as guys should start courting women again and leading off with this stuff.
Basically, she only gets investment of dates when attraction and worthiness are demonstrated. You opening move should never be planning a creative date without screening her and having deepening attraction first.
@Bob
Everyone has stories. I’ve had a man say to me at the end of a first date that I thought had gone well, “you can suck my dick if you want.” I was also invited to a guy’s family Christmas Eve celebration, and when it came time to sit down to dinner, it was discovered that he had left. There I was with his extended family, about 40 miles from home, and he had just peaced out. His grandfather had to drive me home after dinner. I had a boyfriend break into my apartment while I was sleeping to leave a letter of apology after a fight. I had a man force me out of the car on the freeway at 2 in the morning after he stated his intention to spend the night at my place and I said that wasn’t happening. I had a man grab my breast hard on St. Patrick’s Day in an Australian bar in LA.
That’s about 1% of my stories. Neither sex has a monopoly on shitty behavior.
“I had a man force me out of the car on the freeway at 2 in the morning after he stated his intention to spend the night at my place and I said that wasn’t happening. ”
I will never complain about a bad date again.
@OTC
Well guess what they wind up with? Nada. Playing Player Hardass is not working, at least not with these women.
You don’t blame a guy who blocks a woman for not putting out the second time they ever met? That’s his right, but it makes him a total asshole. Re PrivateMan’s method, he’s alone, and he doesn’t want to be. I don’t know why men are taking advice from men who have bad marriages, no love life, and are essentially involuntarily celibate. Half the Game blogs fit this description.
If they were dual ladder guys, and they did the date thing, expressing interest in seeing the woman again, why change the scene to shady at the second meeting? The woman who would make a great companion to explore a new city is now relegated to “fuck me or you’re gone” with no clue as to why.
Jeebus!
Jeez Susan! That’s a lot of bad behavior! And I was whining about people waving me off plans at the last minute on occasion…
@Iggles
She moved on and has been with a different guy for a couple of years. Interestingly, she ran into that guy one evening and he pulled her aside to offer a sincere apology for his behavior. He said he was trying to become a better person. Save it, dude, I don’t want to hear your 12 steps.
@Mikey
Perhaps, but I’m giving examples here of women who did not tolerate that behavior. And I applaud them for it – these men disrespected them.
I understand that guys have gotta do what works for them. I’ve concluded that it is essential for women to DQ guys who exhibit any shady behavior. Once a woman is out of college, she should be dating with an eye toward finding her future husband. And the cost of her giving a douchebag six months of her life is very high. Even if she kicks 100 Pretend Assholes to the curb, she is still better off focusing on those men who are emotionally available and confident enough to say so.
“Male investment-heavy courtship now takes place post-sex but pre-engagement-type commitment.”
“Sex has been separated from marriage by approx. 10-12 years.”
This.
Women want commitment without reciprocity, they equate sex with commitment but in the hook up landscape it is the equivalent of a peck on the cheek.
You can’t have the advantages of option seeking with the benefit of commitment.
Casualized labour can’t complain about the lack of work security, it’s the nature of the contract.
Figures…
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/14/the_new_york_times_says_technology_killed_courtship_we_say_good_riddance.html
.
I prefer a coffee first date myself. I actually tend to suggest it. Keep it light and simple, and there is room to cut it short if you really aren’t feeling it.
@Anne
It was so scary! There I was on the shoulder of the 405 about 20 miles from home. I didn’t even know how far the next exit was. I walked a couple of miles (in very high heels) – I remember it was March and very cold (nights in LA are quite cool). It was foggy. Eventually, a car pulled up and offered me a ride. It was a single guy. I remember thinking, “What if this is Ted Bundy?” But I got in. He was really nice. He took me all the way home and expected nothing. I was very grateful.
Sue: “Well guess what they wind up with? Nada. Playing Player Hardass is not working, at least not with these women.”
Again, you dont know that – you are looking it from the woman’s perspective. For *this* woman, it didn’t work. But if you ask this guy his success rate, you might get a very different answer. Maybe it worked the next day, and he made her his girlfriend shortly after.
Sue: “You don’t blame a guy who blocks a woman for not putting out the second time they ever met? That’s his right, but it makes him a total asshole.”
It is admittedly bit of a badass move, and an extreme example. But the underlying principle is if there’s no definite physical attraction to work off of, move on sooner rather than later.
Sue: “If they were dual ladder guys, and they did the date thing, expressing interest in seeing the woman again, why change the scene to shady at the second meeting? The woman who would make a great companion to explore a new city is now relegated to “fuck me or you’re gone” with no clue as to why.”
Because she’s not on the girlfriend ladder, and its just a line. Or, he wants a FWB to explore the city with… exploring a city has no correlation to monogamy after all. Or, perhaps, the physicality is the qualification for that exploration as a possible GF.
Sue: “I’ve concluded that it is essential for women to DQ guys who exhibit any shady behavior.”
Absolutely, 100%! Say yes to the good ones! Of course, this necessarily means no exceptions for the super-hot player… it’s that price discrimination that creates more of them.
Um, dude……..I’m a young 20s woman who has been on plenty of dates. I’m not saying that there are not women out there who may flake at the prospect of a date. Women like that do exist. I just don’t believe that they are the majority.
I have been witness to many women, and I mean MANY women, who have been beside themselves with glee and anticipation at the prospect of a date with a guy they liked. I’ve seen it more times than I can count.
To be frank, I think it’s just easier for many people to blame a lack of success on a tactic (asking for a legitimate date) rather than their inherent unattractiveness/shortcomings. A lot of dating/romantic/sexual failure also occurs because both men and women pursue people who simply aren’t interested in them. No one will be attractive to everyone.
The thought of rejecting someone simply because they asked to go on a date doesn’t compute for me. In my opinion, there has to be a legitimate reason why the date offer was rejected. I’m not saying that some women don’t have crazy/superficial reasons for rejecting date offers. I’m just not sure that women are rejecting the date offers simply because they are date offers.
@Susan
Lot to comment on here.
First of all, I can sympathize with the women, but only to an extent. The problem with saying that “a lot of women don’t do booty calls” is that it’s almost never a hard and fast rule. I know plenty of girls who go on tons of dates and generally turn down booty calls/casual hookups, but there’s always an exception now and again, and it’s never for the guy who’s taken them out before (it’s for the ones you would call dbags). So when men see even these women, the ones who do appreciate dates, violating their own code, it shoots a lot of holes in the courtship script.
Secondly, dating is both expensive and exhausting. I make good money and can afford to go on a fair number of dates, but after a while it starts to add up, even for me (figure average 1 date a week @$80/date, with drinks averaging $60 and dinners $120 or so). There have been periods where I’ve gone on 2-3 dates a week 3-4 weeks in a row, and spent over $1,000 in that span. That’s a lot of investment, and I’d like to see some return on it. Given that I’m not just looking for sex, I have pretty high standards about who I even invite on a date, and then who I invite on date 2, so I’m cutting girls left right and center with nothing to show for it except some halfway decent conversation, maybe a kiss/makeout, and a $200 whole in my pocket. Eventually you start to ask yourself “why am I doing this when I might find a girl at a bar, sleep with her, then have a relationship come out of it”? And believe me, I have some friends who have relationships with girls they’ve met in exactly that fashion, and while some of the girls are idiotic bimbos, some are actually very smart, attractive and fun. It’s been seven months since I broke up with my ex and I’ve been on probably 30 first dates since then, if not more (probably more). I’ve also had 3-4 one night stands (or 2-3 night stands). Of those 30 girls, I asked maybe 7 or so for a second date, and got it with about 5. Of those 5, I went past date 3 with 2 of them. Neither of those worked out further than 6 weeks, one for weird reasons (long story about mutual friends, ex-gf/bfs, etc), and one because she was actually in it for the sex (believe it or not). That’s a ton of money and a LOT of time spent dating with nothing to show for it. With the 3-4 girls I’ve taken home for a one night stand, it didn’t take all that much effort or $$ and I at least got laid. And remember, I’m someone who’s actually looking for an LTR (hell I even stopped trying to take girls home from bars and got numbers only for a few months), so I should be more immune to date fatigue than most. However, I’m exhausted. On Saturday night, there was a cute girl at the bar I was at giving me eyes all night. I was tired, so I wasn’t going to try and take her home. However, I normally would talk to her to get her number. I had this conversation in my head: “I’ll probably chat her up, get her number, and we’ll go one a date. Maybe I’ll like her, maybe she’ll suck. Either way, I’m out $80 and a night of my life, and then I have to clear that suck/like her hurdle 2-3 more times before anything really happens (and drop another $150). Fuck it, I’m just to grab the next round with my friends.” Six months ago, I would’ve gone up to her in two seconds.
As a side note to point 2, I don’t think the dual-ladder system is bad for guys. Some girls you like enough to sleep with, and some enough to date. I think it’s a perfectly fine system. You concentrate your resources on the ones you want to date, and then the other ones you throw a line to every so often (my friend calls them “weekend girls”). Btw, this previous guy is similar to me, in that he goes on tons of dates. However, he doesn’t have my sometimes-aversion to casual sex, and has slept with 15-16 girls in the last 7 months. He also goes on 1-2 dates a week, and not generally with the girls he sleeps with on the weekends. Even he has admitted he’s so exhausted with dating that he might settle for the current “weekend” girl he’s seeing, even though she’s an absolute moron.
Hmmm. I think one of my comments is in limbo somewhere.
@ Mikey
Um, dude……..I’m a young 20s woman who has been on plenty of dates. I’m not saying that there are not women out there who may flake at the prospect of a date. Women like that do exist. I just don’t believe that they are the majority.
I have been witness to many women, and I mean MANY women, who have been beside themselves with glee and anticipation at the prospect of a date with a guy they liked. I’ve seen it more times than I can count.
To be frank, I think it’s just easier for many people to blame a lack of success on a tactic (asking for a legitimate date) rather than their inherent unattractiveness/shortcomings. A lot of dating/romantic/sexual failure also occurs because both men and women pursue people who simply aren’t interested in them. No one will be attractive to everyone.
The thought of rejecting someone simply because they asked to go on a date doesn’t compute for me. In my opinion, there has to be a legitimate reason why the date offer was rejected. I’m not saying that some women don’t have crazy/superficial reasons for rejecting date offers. I’m just not sure that women are rejecting the date offers simply because they are date offers.
@Susan — I remember thinking, “What if this is Ted Bundy?”
Haha now I’m remembering that creepy thread where you shared the picture of your fam in an old classic car — didn’t you just miss a brush with a serial killer? Am I just making this all up?
I am so glad nothing happened to you!
Sassy @ 14
You nailed it.
@OTC
I reluctantly cosign everything you say.
Back in the mid to late 90s I was in my early to mid twenties. At that point in time, the “proper date”/courtship model seemed to still work. I asked my ex-wife on dates in the beginning and that is how our relationship progressed. After we broke up for the first time at the end of 1997, even in 1998 and 1999, I had some success with “dating” and even some of my flings started with “proper dates”. I think things changed in 2000 or around that time. I went back to grad school and remember this girl I met literally the first few weeks in the gym there. Approached her in the gym, got her number, and set up a “date”. Long story short, total bust, and I think it was because I went the “proper date” route. I was kind of fumbling and bumbling that first year (2nd year of grad school I got back with the ex-wife) but I think I sort of accidently stumbled onto “meeting up” instead of “going out on a date”. By the time 2005/2006 rolled around, and I was single again, and bouncing it seemed clear to me that “dating” was dead. All the guys I knew were operating off the super casual “let’s meet up” script, and that is the script I used for the first few girls before meeting my now fiancee. She and I actually went out on “proper dates”, but somehow I had sensed she would appreciate it and that the old script would be OK with her.
I can’t really argue with the advice in this post for women. I think it is good advice for the women genuinely interested in a relationship. But I agree with Mikey that I would not give that advice to guys. The best move for guys is to still play it casual and indifferent and do the “meet up” thing unless he can very clearly determine he is dealing with a more traditional type girl/woman.
@Zach
For the record, that’s a perfectly reasonable way of looking at it.
I’m really struck by this. You are a high SMV guy with an Ivy League degree. You have the ability to get casual sex pretty much whenever you want it, or at least a decent shot on any given night. Yet you share the same ennui and dissatisfaction that women do.
I don’t think it’s bad for guys or girls. I think that women should earn commitment and be worthy of it. If they are not worthy of it, that’s on them.
As someone who shares your alma mater, you can imagine how painful that is for me to hear. At this point I can only pray that you go to b-school and meet smart women worthy of commitment there.
@pennies
Yes, supposedly the Manson gang looked at my mom and three of us kids and contemplated murder at the red light. The light changed and we sped away. That intersection was very near the Sharon Tate murders.
I’m just an ordinary citizen – it makes me wonder about the “near misses” we must all experience without ever knowing.
I just want to say this is totally reasonable and fair, from a male POV. The advice implicit in this is that women who want to be treated differently better do everything in their power to demonstrate that they are traditional.
Definitely. That makes sense to me.
@Zach — There have been periods where I’ve gone on 2-3 dates a week 3-4 weeks in a row, and spent over $1,000 in that span.
A question – if a woman you take out for drinks isn’t feeling it, does she ever offer to pay for her drink? That’s what I used to do. I didn’t want someone to pick up my tab if I knew there wasn’t going to be a second date.
If a guy offered to pay and I accepted, that was my way of saying that there would definitely be a second date/I liked the guy.
I’ve always done things backwards. I was an early Internet junkie before being nerdy was cool. So I was chatting in dial-up days and getting to know guys via IM, getting emotionally entangled before real dates.
In fact, that’s how all my LTRs went. “Texting” first, then falling in love, and dating last. I wouldn’t even know how to do dating first. Could this be because my mind is sort of wired like a guy’s?
“So when men see even these women, the ones who do appreciate dates, violating their own code, it shoots a lot of holes in the courtship script.”
Precisely why so many are not court worthy. How can a man even begin to justify exhibiting anything beyond courteous respect until a woman at least proves somehow to him that she does not step out of the sexual character presently on display?
I am with Zach re: dual-ladder/”dual-cool” as an effective strategy for many men.
FWIW, I still enjoy traditional dates and I consider a nice, private evening to be one of life’s great pleasures, but I’m also older than these guys who are just coming out of campus hook-up culture (and I increasingly have to compete based on experienced social refinement over youthful vigor), I work in a lucrative industry, and even with these important caveats I am still careful to avoid low-percentage plays with dead-end mercenary girls. I would not advise guys in their 20s, in this SMP, to engage in high-end traditional dating until they are quite sure that the relationship has serious/marriage potential.
There are perils to heavy traditional dating expenditures that women may not always fully appreciate because these costs tend to be absorbed by men. Case Study: A few years ago, I went on one of my frequent, wild episodes of romantic flamboyance and took a girl on a South America trip that included hiking the Inca Trail. I absorbed all expenses, including an outfitting package that included a complete wardrobe of Arc’teryx technical outdoors clothing and a Nikon D3 for the girl in question. The trip was outstanding, but we broke up about six weeks later (my fault, although it was a story without heroes). I have little doubt that the new man/Fuck Phantom who emerged before the smoke had even cleared was enjoying himself as he peeled the sleek, tight climbing apparel off of her nubile body; perhaps, between chortles, he even gave silent thanks to her previous benefactor. God only knows what they used that fucking camera for.
I’ve concluded that it is essential for women to DQ guys who exhibit any shady behavior. ***Once a woman is out of college, she should be dating with an eye toward finding her future husband.*** And the cost of her giving a douchebag six months of her life is very high. Even if she kicks 100 Pretend Assholes to the curb, she is still better off focusing on those men who are emotionally available and confident enough to say so.
I basically agree. This is what is going to change the market. It is critical to understand that ultimately women control the market as the “choosers”. Men simply try to adapt and figure out “what works”. Women set the de facto standards by what they respond positively to, and what they reject.
Of course, there is an opportunity cost to kicking 100 “Pretend Assholes” to the curb, but you have to decide whether you want to make Type 1 or Type 2 errors. In this SMP, no strategy is going to be perfect. When a critical mass of young women start changing what they respond to, guys will adapt to the new conditions. And let me say I am very happy to read that bolded part you’ve written.
“So when men see even these women, the ones who do appreciate dates, violating their own code, it shoots a lot of holes in the courtship script.”
I think one thing it would behoove all women to understand is that the vast majority of men put a very high priority on consistency and the universal applicability of one single standard to all situations. Most men don’t look kindly on the notion of “feelings” being used to justify completely different responses depending on that situation. So if a woman has a code, she has to live by that code with all men, not have some men where she decides to “play it differently”. That is the sort of thing that men watch closely and can make a guy feel like a chump. No guy wants to properly date/court/invest in the woman who previously was a meetup/hookup girl. The key point is young women have to develop a set code of behavior and stick to it, and be a little less prone to going with feelings in the moment.
@pennies
You should always offer to pay your share, but he will get it. Whoever initiated the date pays, and that should be him, as you let him ask you out. Insisting on paying because he didn’t find you fascinating enough, is stupidity.
When he pays, you say “thank you very much” and leave it at that. A discussion around the payment is very uncomfortable. Nobody wants that. Last time I reached for the bill, he snapped it out of my hand, curled it into a ball and threw it away. It’s supposed to be ignored.
@Hope
No way, I’d say you are the most classically feminine woman here. I think that you were particularly immune to some negative aspects of American culture, and you were also willing to invest and risk a great deal from the outset. You went all in very early – emotionally escalating to the point where you contributed significantly financially.
I think your strategy was brilliant, but having said that, I’m not sure how often it can be applied. It’s like your relationship was a perfect storm in a way – are there lessons there that can be replicated for the population at large? (Note: I hope the answer is yes.)
God, this is a brilliant piece of writing. There’s a mild element of self-deprecation here that just serves to shore up BB’s charm.
What I used to do is ask if I could chip in half and sometimes a guy would say “sure.” The whole conversation was carefully coded but it often seemed like we were not really talking about money as much as if we both wanted a date #2/more flirtation.
@Mike C
Exactly. I recognize that if women take my advice and implement it to the letter, they will be DQ’ing some men who would actually make good mates. Guys who are spinning plates or demanding sex in an effort to provide the dominance that women reward. I have given this a lot of thought.
It can be very difficult for women to discern who’s pretending to not care and who really doesn’t give a shit. That’s the problem. If we believe that there are a lot of potential mates out there for any one of us, then I think it’s good strategy for both sexes to invest resources with those who display interest and mutual investment.
+1
This is a question of character. Both sexes have every right to seek and demand character in a mate. In fact, I wish both sexes exercised this judgment more often.
He was really nice. He took me all the way home and expected nothing. I was very grateful.
“expected nothing”. Of course he expected nothng. He was a man. If he’d been an acquaintance, your responsibility would have been to inquire if he like walnuts in his brownies; frosting or no. That’s because you could find him afterwards.
Jeez. What standards do we have here?
After hearing hundreds of stories, these are the guidelines I stand by:
First date, whoever initiated pays. Usually the male. If online dating, male pays.
After first date, depends on individuals. If male is provider-oriented, female should contribute by securing tickets, preparing meals, planning special dates, etc. If more egalitarian, female should share expenses, though I prefer taking turns to splitting the check.
Feminism killed chivalry. Men should not be on the hook to pay.
@Richard
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I accepted a ride from a stranger, and he was generous in delivering me home. I thanked him.
Do you feel that I failed him in some way?
Susan, you are too kind, but I don’t think I am “classically feminine” at all. I had to learn a lot of it! When I was younger I would try to impress guys first with my “nerd cred.” I spent hours waxing philosophic about video game mechanics, discussing the latest tech stuff like computer hardware, and reminiscing about old geeky things. Even today I looked up Diablo 3 information for quite a while.
I was always uncomfortable with the idea of dating because of the expectations. I had access to uncensored male thinking from 12 on because I was online in the 90s. I knew how they felt about taking girls out and “not getting any.” I also refused to play the game on the same rules as other girls, and I bent the rules by going around and asking the guys what to do. They give great advice because they tend to be rather logical about these things. So the “date” was just a means to an end. I could skip the “dating” and do what I wanted instead… and I wanted great conversations.
@pennies
I have had women offer to split, some even sincerely, but you have to understand agreeing to split or not leads to asymmetric outcomes. First of all, you have to guess whether she means it. Even if youre good at picking up the signs, youre going to be wrong sometimes. Also, some girls who “mean it” dont really mean it. I had one girl who before we even went on one date (but when she was clearly into me) go on a long pseudo feminist rant about how shed never expect a guy to pay and always would split the bill. On date 2, I took her at her word and let her split it. After that, things went downhill and I heard from mutual friends that one of the huge problems was she couldnt believe I let her pay. So the risks are not equal. You refuse her offer, and youre out some money. You take her up on it and you may save some cash but you run a material risk of a black mark against your name. Thats doubly true here in NYC, where a lot of girls are used to going out with guys with money who will always pay.
@Hope
And to your credit, you filtered men using that criterion. You were not put off by a man who wanted a real connection. You and your husband practiced the Principle of Most Interest – an intense emotional connection that was nurtured in a way that trust and security grew quickly.
Also, I don’t remember who told me this, but I was told that it is very flattering to a guy when a cute girl wants to talk to him, just talk, no extra stuff, no wanting him to buy her anything, because it means that she was interested in him for himself.
Incidentally my husband said he felt like he was “courting” me even though we were “just talking.” So men really feel like talking, sans the accoutrement of dating, is important. That may be why they seem so “flaky” nowadays when it comes to dating.
@Zach
I agree that women are extremely fickle about paying. Even those who will happily share expenses later will seek a provider instinct in a guy early on.
I won’t presume to advise guys on this. But I will say that agreeing to let a woman go halfsies almost never works. Much better to pick up the check, wink and tell her dinner is on her next time.
“No guy wants to properly date/court/invest in the woman who previously was a meetup/hookup girl.”
Why can’t such women accept that is how men are and leave it at that? Why do they denigrate men for merely thinking this way?
.
“Eventually you start to ask yourself “why am I doing this when I might find a girl at a bar, sleep with her, then have a relationship come out of it”? And believe me, I have some friends who have relationships with girls they’ve met in exactly that fashion, and while some of the girls are idiotic bimbos, some are actually very smart, attractive and fun.”
“No guy wants to properly date/court/invest in the woman who previously was a meetup/hookup girl.”
In other words, men have absolutely no clue what they want either?
@Susan#75,
I absolutely hate that thinking about such things is necessary, but having met women who really do view dating as “ticket to lots of free dinners,” having a plan in place to identify women of that sort right off the bat is a good idea; one of those “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” things that a good filter provides.
Abbott, Anne,
Because not all men are the same, nor are all women. It’s sets-of-assumptions which apply in some cases but not all.
@Susan
“I had a man grab my breast hard on St. Patrick’s Day in an Australian bar in LA.”
An Australian bar in LA. Talk about choice of venue. There are few ways more certain to get you molested than hanging out a bar full of Ozzie guys with the Santa Ana wind at their backs. That accent affords them quite a bit of latitude, perhaps not breast groping, but then again, that’s just Australian for: “I think you are cute and I would like to spend some time this evening getting to know you better.” Chalk it up to cultural differences. Unless of course it was just Chad from Brentwood, then yeah, you just got groped by a guy with a USC accent. Those are a dime a dozen.
Susan.
Richard
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I accepted a ride from a stranger, and he was generous in delivering me home. I thanked him.
Do you feel that I failed him in some way?
Yes. You failed him by expecting him to expect something. Presumably, you didn’t express your surprise out loud.
“Eventually you start to ask yourself “why am I doing this when I might find a girl at a bar, sleep with her, then have a relationship come out of it”? And believe me, I have some friends who have relationships with girls they’ve met in exactly that fashion, and while some of the girls are idiotic bimbos, some are actually very smart, attractive and fun.”
“No guy wants to properly date/court/invest in the woman who previously was a meetup/hookup girl.”
In other words, men have absolutely no clue what they want either?
I probably shouldn’t say no guy but most guys. That said, I’m not sure I am following your point here. I don’t think Zach and I are contradicting each other if that is what you are implying.
The point is there are two different scripts to “get a girlfriend”/get a relationship from the guy’s perspective. Zach is saying why put in the higher upfront investment of time and resources to get to the finish line if you can get there just as easily with less investment and time. What I am suggesting is it is one way or the other. The two cannot peacefully coexist, certainly not for the same girl. Culturally, it is confusing for men because they are not sure which script to follow. Follow the wrong script and in one case you are a “douchebag” or maybe just “pretend asshole”, and in the other you are a “chump”. A guy like Bastiat Blogger can laugh off one situation like he described but some guys might get continuously played for chumps. I recognize women have their own conundrums as well such as the pace of sexual escalation. Unfortunately, when we as a society cast aside all the structural norms and rules regarding dating, we ended up with a maze with a lot of dead ends.
Susan, yes I agree about the mutual emotional escalation. I think the lack of “proper dating” actually helped there. It felt more natural, like getting to know a person via seredipity rather than choosing a mate from a store (typical online dating). Every step along the way is more momentous and meaningful. Even just the first time you find out each other’s real names.
To give an example, asking for someone’s phone number when you met that person first on a dating site is like, no big deal. Probably don’t even care that much; the phone call will be brief and for setting up the meeting. But when my husband asked me for my phone number, it was really exciting. We talked for hours that first phone call. Neither of us wanted to hang up, so we went to bed still with our cell phones and finally ended the calls when we were exhausted.
Doing things backwards can be fun.
Zach,
Why the hell did you go on a date with a woman who went on a feminist rant?
@Zach — Thats doubly true here in NYC, where a lot of girls are used to going out with guys with money who will always pay.
(Former) NYC dater here as well. I guess it depends on the crowd, though… No finance guys for me — academics, journalists, musicians, a film critic, an oceanographer. No one with major bucks.
I’m sorry that someone said it was okay to split and then became secretly resentful. That’s not cool. Methinks if she liked you, she could have communicated that she wanted to experiment with a more traditional dating frame…
The most important strategy women have at their disposal when dating in their 20s is the extensive use of filters. You must ruthlessly filter out men who are not offering what you want. Which is a real date
It should not even be explained…
If you want a meaningful relationship, you must filter guys according to the degree of effort they put in. Garbage in, garbage out.
Do you people there live on planet Mars?….
@Susan
I meant the expected value of the connection is low if a high % of women flake or are going out with you mainly because it’s a free dinner for them. In this environment it makes sense for the man to cut his expenses regardless of whether he is looking for casual sex or true love.
If you want a meaningful relationship, you must filter guys according to the degree of effort they put in. Garbage in, garbage out.
Do you people there live on planet Mars?….
Damien, I have no idea how it is in France, but here at least for *some* women when it comes to the tradeoff of amount of tingle generated versus degree of effort the guy puts in, the former trumps the latter quite handily. Quite perversely, they often seem negatively correlated. And there is that tricky calibration. The guy must show effort but NOT be “too eager”
Sounds easy in theory, but can get a bit tricky in real world application
@Sassy6519
“Um, dude……..I’m a young 20s woman who has been on plenty of dates. I’m not saying that there are not women out there who may flake at the prospect of a date. Women like that do exist. I just don’t believe that they are the majority.”
I won’t add to the usual rant of solipsism and it’s use in argument here, but this statement doesn’t add anything. It wasn’t about you personally, I wouldn’t respond to your experience with guys with “I’m not like that so it’s not true.” Your belief about it is irrelevant, the correct experience for this would be to ask men, from the comments so far, the votes are in favor of what I’m saying so far.
“I have been witness to many women, and I mean MANY women, who have been beside themselves with glee and anticipation at the prospect of a date with a guy they liked. I’ve seen it more times than I can count.”
Mistake number one here. Attraction is already established, they wanted a date with guys they liked. There is a basis of knowing them/ liking them established already. We are talking about an initial approach an asking to a date. Even with physical attraction, you cannot say you “like” that person already. The point is, asking a girl out on a formal date is not the best method for guys to induce attraction. Dates are fine after the girl is invested and “likes” you.
“The thought of rejecting someone simply because they asked to go on a date doesn’t compute for me. In my opinion, there has to be a legitimate reason why the date offer was rejected. I’m not saying that some women don’t have crazy/superficial reasons for rejecting date offers. I’m just not sure that women are rejecting the date offers simply because they are date offers.”
Well some of these comments should be eye opening for you. Yes, asking a girl out as a first date is a bad tactic. Look at the other comments and stories here so far. For the vast majority of guys and the girls they are after it fails as a good option for them. One cannot recommend strategies for guys aimed at the special snowflake woman who wants a first date from a stranger and would respond positively to it.
And yes it is a tactic, like I said before, I have with numerous girls received negative or no progress with a dating type track, yet hangout/ no date track yields results on the SAME women. After they are invested with the second track, dates would work fine, the point is order here, which is tactics.
I think that’s a fundamental difference between the blue and red pill. The red pillers on both side admit there are tactics and strategies that work, while the blue pillers refuse to agree hanging on to the it’s never tactics its all about the person and if they were the “right one.” (Disclaimer, no this does not mean red pill means there are magic tactics to create attraction from nothing.)
@Susan
Theres a rather simple reason note to date.
It doesn’t work. Period.
Regardless of what should or should not be hangouts, meet ups etc. get a man girlfriend and/or just sex.
Really not much else to say on the issue. Dating cannot be an alternative to hookup culture because, magic words, it doesn’t work. At least not in college.
It may not be nice of the guys to show minimal interest in dates, but aren’t we ignored if we attempt to show more interest?
@Susan
“She goes alone to join him in a bar at 11 pm with a bunch of his college buddies. What purpose does that serve? How well does that plan enable them to get to know one another? What does he expect when the bar closes?”
Cause this is the mark of the woman truly deserving of a date as opposed to joining him in a bar at 11 pm with a bunch of his college buddies.
Speaking from experience, if you flipped the script even a little bit, be prepared to qualify yourself to an inch of your life.
Hello Susan! This is Charlotte, the girl who started quite the debate on the “why you should date older guys” post.
I have to say, I totally agree with your views on this article.
Let me tell you a little story from this weekend. Proof that men right out of college have NO idea how to even approach dating.
So a little back story on me: I’m 21, just graduated a semester early from school, but have been working full time in a field I love and living in NYC since August. Most of my friends that I hang out with are a little older, like 23-24, and I often go out with my cousins who go up to age 28. Most men I have met in the city are older, usually at least 24. I consider myself to be mature for my age and would probably do best dating someone who was anywhere from 24 – 27.
Anywho, this weekend, several girlfriends and I went out. As soon as we walked into this place, I noticed this gorgeous guy. He was EXTREMELY tall, dark hair, etc. etc. A little too handsome, if you ask me, but you never know, they could be the diamond in the rough that has no idea how cute they are. Obviously, I was pretty wrong. Ha. Anyways, I keep looking at him, he’s looking at me, and eventually, his friend (designated wingman, obviously) comes over and starts talking to my friend and I, casually bringing him and a third friend into the conversation. We end up chatting, he is a writer like me, went to an Ivy League school, played a sport, blah blah blah. I’m not blown away by his personality, but I’m figuring, hey he’s cute and nice, I’ll keep chatting with him. Let’s call him Will.
Long story short, these guys are going to another bar and invite my friends and I to come. We are waiting at this point for several of our guy friends to come meet us there, so we tell them maybe we will see them there later. The third guy in the convo, lets call him Jeff, gets one of my friends numbers and is texting her like “when are you coming, I’d love to buy you a drink” blah blah blah. So that friend is determined to go to this other bar, since she was interested in Jeff, so we head over there – 4 girls and 2 guys (1 is dating one of the girls).
We arrive and as soon as we walk in, Jeff greets my friend is is obviously into her. I am curious to explore this bar, which turned out to be a very cool hole in the wall, so I’m kinda doing my own thing with one of my guy friends. Jeff comes up to me, with my friend, and is like “Will is wondering if you came”. Blah blah blah, Will comes up, and we start dancing, nothing sexual at all, just some silly spins and stuff like that. I can tell that he isn’t very drunk, as he is almost a bit awkward, and my guy friend comes over to ask me something and he basically RUNS away. He eventually comes back and continues talking to me. Then he invites me to go to the coat check with him. WEIRD. But I go because I hadn’t been to the upstairs part of the bar yet and was curious about it. So of course, once we get up there, I’m like “why in the world did you ask me to come to the coat check” and he says, “to hang out.” At this point, I’m thinking, that I am bored out of my mind be this guy. So he ends it like “I’m leaving, do you want to come with me?”
I was appalled. Of course I declined. I have never had that happen since I left school, especially from someone who is out of college. But he is just one year out of college, and is probably used to getting girls to just come home with him from when he was at school and he was one of the cutest guys. Oh no, sorry buddy, it doesn’t work like that in the real world.
I replied, “Uh no, sorry, I’m not going to come home with you.” And he got offended, saying “woah sorry if that was forward. WEll, have a nice night.”
I was just so shocked by the fact that he thought he could get away with this. I am certain that I’m not the kinda girl you approach when looking for a one night stand. This poor kid is banking on his looks to bypass dating. Absolutely ridiculous.
If it was an older guy, I know a) they wouldn’t have invited me home with them, even if that was their end goal only to sleep with me, and b) they would have taken my phone number and maybe at least made an effort to see me another time, even if their only hope was that that lead to sleeping with me.
I’m sure I rambled on far too long with that story, but my point is: a lot of young men have NO idea how to date in the real world. Most girls don’t go home with random strangers, no matter how handsome you are. SORRY BUDDY.
Well, one positive thing is that my friend really hit it off with Jeff, he turned out to be quite the charming gentleman. Instead of creeping on her, he graciously thanked her for conversation and gave her a kiss on the cheek goodnight. He lives in another city, but he texted her the next day, appreciative for the conversation and said that he would love to see her next time he’s in town. ONLY IF THIS LAME HANDSOME DUDE STAYS AWAY.
@Susan
“If they were dual ladder guys, and they did the date thing, expressing interest in seeing the woman again, why change the scene to shady at the second meeting? The woman who would make a great companion to explore a new city is now relegated to “fuck me or you’re gone” with no clue as to why.”
Related to my previous post.
Men care about congruency. Is she always girlfriend material.
Agreeing to “Hey tits lets meet at 11:30 while I’m smashed and head back to my place” is not congruent with girlfriend behaviour.
Know I’ve done a few things like that. Set up a situation in which the correct answer is to tell me to fuck off thereby proving she is actually a ‘good’ girl.
My wife told me to fuck off minus the fuck off when I tried it on her.
@Madalena
“I prefer a coffee first date myself. I actually tend to suggest it. Keep it light and simple, and there is room to cut it short if you really aren’t feeling it.”
Genius.
Meet me at X Coffee Pub (also known as X’s) at X time was every first date I had for the entirety of my time in that city.
@Mike C
women when it comes to the tradeoff of amount of tingle generated versus degree of effort the guy puts in, the former trumps the latter quite handily. Quite perversely, they often seem negatively correlated. And there is that tricky calibration. The guy must show effort but NOT be “too eager
Knowing smile here….
And beyond the cultural bondaries, I might as well ask you what do you want from a women before you die?
@ Charlotte
Do you remember the part of the conversation where the players said they would zoom in on you like a cruise missile?
I do not mean to be offensive, but you are coming here with quite a self-righteous attitude and you may not understand how you are projecting yourself to men.
@Hope
“Even today I looked up Diablo 3 information for quite a while. ”
I went one step further.
I went and DL’d the game and played for about an hour.
Brought me back to late grade, early high school memories.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
I actually know that I’m not that kind of girl…in fact, most of my male friends have told me that I’m either “intimidating” or “have too high standards for guys and they can tell”. Both of which I’m trying to work on. I was dressed conservatively (long sleeve black floaty top, no cleavage, skinny jeans, boots) and was wearing natural makeup and my hair wavy. I am not an overly flirtacious or touchy sort of girl. In fact, I find myself to be pretty awkward at times. Also, the fact that this is the first time a guy has proposed this come home with me line to me also is proof that I don’t think I’m the type that men would expect that from. But who knows. I’m just taking that from my prior experiences on this “post modern scene”.
For me to invite a girl out for a proper ‘first date’ (eg dinner or some other costly investment), she would have to show genuine interest in me and I would have to be reasonably sure she wasn’t price discriminating. For a girl to get through that early screening I would have to have spent some time with her already. You can’t get this certainty from a 15 minute conversation at a party. She would have to be from the social circle, work or hobby group where I’ve had the opportunity to get to know her.
This has been a rare occurence, but it happens occassionally. A girl can qualify for this (and have this as one of her own requirements), but she has to bring the value. If her value isn’t high enough, this will never happen.
@Mikey
“We are talking about an initial approach an asking to a date.”
I’ll try and put this as nicely and simply as possible,
Are you fucking retarded?
Seriously,
Hi I’m Lokland, whats your nam…nvm thats not important, how about tomorrow me and you meet at the coffee pub and walk around the park? (Jumps up and down, wagging tail, tongue lolling.)
ALL GUYS: NEVER ASK FOR A DATE UPON FIRST MEETING EVER IN A MILLION YEARS.
EVER.
Like ever.
Meet
Phone Number
Banter
Ask Date
etc.
Unless your unicorn pretty she needs time to grow attraction.
So actually the above only applies if your not Brad Pitt. So pretty much all of you.
@Charlotte
Regarding your story, I found that if I was approached for a 1 night stand (or “keeping it casual”) it would be by very good looking men. They were quite upfront about it (no game playing) and I gather it’s because it was a successful strategy for them. Not all handsome men were like that, I’ve dated a few myself, by filtering like mad. But the fact that v good looking men have options that they choose to exercise makes me disinclined to go for them.
I’ve also had less good looking men look for casual sex but they were not as upfront about it, on the whole. Still, filtering and vetting catches them out too.
@Mike C
Beat me to the point on congruency, bastard
@Lokland
“I’ll try and put this as nicely and simply as possible,
Are you fucking retarded?”
Did you even read my comment? Try some reading comprehension before you call people retarded. The point was asking for a first date IS a bad move.
Clown.
Knowing smile here….
And beyond the cultural bondaries, I might as well ask you what do you want from a women before you die?
Her Devotion. I believe I have it. Love is obviously part of devotion, but I think devotion is something more and includes other things that might not be included in some people’s conception of love.
Beat me to the point on congruency, bastard
Haha, that’s me….bastard.
Regarding your story, I found that if I was approached for a 1 night stand (or “keeping it casual”) it would be by very good looking men. They were quite upfront about it (no game playing) and I gather it’s because it was a successful strategy for them.
To Charlotte’s point, the proposition may not have been specifically about assuming anything particular about her. FWIW, in my experience a girl willing to go with a ONS or even 2nd meeting sex doesn’t necessarily have a particular “look”. Some might have the “slutty” look you’d assume but some might look like a librarian or girl next door. I remember this one blogger who sported the librarian look who had racked up like 80 guys many of them ONSs.
If a guy is unrestricted and thus has no qualms about a casual encounter and is good-looking, it often is the optimal strategy because it wastes the least amount of time. I won’t argue percentages…but at least in raw numbers there are enough women down for it to make it a viable strategy.
I would caution against assigning any sort of ill-will or “douchebag”ness to dudes who use the meet up method instead of dates. As Markey and a few others have pointed out, most young dudes familiar with the landscape, whether in college or their early twenties, understand that a lot of girls balk at dates and that asking a girl out on one is a great way to get nowhere.
If a girl wants a date with a dude instead of meeting up with him like the usual script, she needs to say that when he tells her to meet up with him at wherever. If the dude is interested and open to more than just a ONS or FB, he won’t have a problem with that. Most dudes are just following the script they learned/observed growing up- nothing more, nothing less- and an attempt by the girl to propose a date instead is great way to indicate they are interested while putting the ball back in his court. The meet up method is so pervasive in part because it offers a defense against flaking and against girls who want to play “see who is less interested”, so a girl saying outright (but pleasantly) that she would prefer a date can actually be refreshing.
I’ve had a couple girls do this to me since I graduated, and I must say it worked in their favor.
Mike C
Her Devotion. I believe I have it. Love is obviously part of devotion, but I think devotion is something more and includes other things that might not be included in some people’s conception of love.
“Other things”…. yes, but it depends what and how, long story..
“Her devotion-love-part-of-devotion, blah-blah”, ok.
What is there more to say? Then keep it, and nurture it, if that is your concept of love (and I am not cynical here, by this I mean “whatever works”), and, most of all, what makes the best long lasting balance betweeen the two of you is the best, as long as she’s willingly “following” that form of love……… You might be later surprised about her level of devotion, though…
I might be wrong but this guy is having a worse coach for dating than anyone in the Manosphere: http://www.geekologie.com/2013/01/ahahahahaha-my-god-youre-doing-it-so-wro.php
Yes, he might, but in the end he looks pretty inoucuous…. How about one of the world’s leading buffoons, this one is not bad either. The smile says it all…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshmi_Mittal
“Her devotion-love-part-of-devotion, ***blah-blah”, ok.***
Hmmm….not sure I am following you here. Anyways, you asked me a direct question and I gave you a sincerely honest answer.
You might be later surprised about her level of devotion, though…
Well…in one sense perhaps one can never be absolutely certain of anything or anyone in this life. My thought is you can’t live daily worried about that stuff…you could literally drive yourself crazy.
you asked me a direct question and I gave you a sincerely honest answer(…)
My thought is you can’t live daily worried about that stuff…you could literally drive yourself crazy.
I didn’t mean to be neither snarky nor ironic. And if that was perceived that way by you, sorry… can’t be helped. On the other hand, I don’t think many people will beat me at the “honesty” game, especially in the US… And I always welcome and respect honest answers, especially yours right now. That was your own personal answer / vision on how men and women can keep on going together until the end of life together. Mine is slightly more blurred by “previous passions” and a current one with someone way too young for me, yet with no intention to “drive myself crazy”, although a thin line when you start to go all in with women. Long story as well.
I could spin a few yarns about the times the woman paying has been the end. One girl in particular I will never forget. We had quite the day, started off early morning-ish and saw a movie, then went to a car show, then hung out at the beach. When it came to get dinner we picked a cheap burger joint (I had been paying all day and payed for gas..at the time I was daily driving a 1968 Chevy Impala so I had burned through about $80 at that point). When we got there I pulled my wallet out and I only had $10 left. I had about a 40 mile roundtrip drive to get her home so I asked if she could pick up dinner so I could get gas. She had already offered to pay earlier not to mention her dad had given her money and actually said it was for us specifically (her dad thought highly of me at least..). Needless to say after the 20 minute drive home I logged on to my computer and found an email dumping me with a LJBF….
Dating can really burn a person out.. I don’t know how Zach has the energy to go on so many dates (but I’m highly introverted). I haven’t been on a date since Sept. I just stopped contact with her due to entitlement issues. I’m feeling pretty apathetic about dating right now. The thought of trying to decipher someone’s motives, saying/doing the right things, planning the correct date, finding someone that is at least open minded enough to appreciate non-mainstream interests and being expected to pay the way is less than motivational. Top it all off with having to decipher eye contact/smile/subtle body language to have a chance at a successful approach and I’m getting exhausted just thinking about it all…
why not do an article about women who flake on a dates with guys who ask them out in a traditional manner? Do some research, see how often women of all ages do it, then come back and tell us why guys become all about casual and not trying to do formal courtship.
Susan, what are you describing in the best way to be LJBF and frustration.
Traditional courtship died in this generation – we can discuss that here but the truth is that pretty girls do reward alpha assholes.
@Russ
Absolutely! Men need filters too. The frustration and anger that arises when someone has taken advantage of your good will and generosity leads to cynicism about the opposite sex. I wholeheartedly support men qualifying women for that kind of behavior up front. In fact, I know one couple whose first date was going running together. Vox Day’s wife suggested walking their dogs together the day after they met (smart preemptive move there).
A date doesn’t have to cost anything. As I said in the post, its purpose is to signal an interest in getting to know another person better one on one. But it should require some effort. Asking a woman over to “watch a movie” at midnight is not a date. Asking her to cab over to your side of town when you’ve already had a few is not a date.
There’s nothing wrong with socializing in groups, hanging out casually, etc. That is not dating. If a man doesn’t escalate alone time for a purpose other than sex, his interest is strictly sexual. Women need to understand that.
@Tasmin
Yup, learned that the hard way. In fact, the story gets better. After the guy grabbed me, I slapped him hard across the face. Do you know what he did? He slapped me back across the face. Outraged and shocked, I turned to the bartender, who shrugged and said, “I’d leave if I were you.”
In retrospect I wish I’d called the police, but this was in 1980 and they probably would have just laughed.
Ah, I see. Of course I was extremely thankful and appreciative. However, I don’t think it was paranoid of me to feel that I was perhaps foolish climbing into a stranger’s car at 2 am on a LA freeway…In fact, as I recall, he was eager to reassure me that he just wanted to help.
@Mike C
Exactly. When you refuse to date a girl until after she’s had sex with you, well then you’re dating a woman who just had no-strings sex. There’s the rub. How many times have guys here said they test a woman but when they like her they want her to refuse sex? And that if she has sex without commitment, she goes onto the slut ladder instead of the relationship ladder?
This isn’t an issue for men who are not very concerned about a woman’s sexual history, and Zach has said he is one of those. But it would be very foolish for women to roll the dice on a guy’s sharing that mentality.
@Hope
Awwww, that is precious. My 17 year old niece was with us over Christmas. She has a serious bf that is now a freshman in college, so they miss each other a lot. One afternoon, they stared at each other using Face Time for about 3 hours, saying little. They were just mooning over each other, it was the sweetest thing I’ve ever seen.
Gotcha and I agree. This post has nothing to do with money. I have said many times that I do not believe dating should be expensive, or even cost anything! I wrote a post highlighting the most popular dates in major cities, and a lot of them were free.
The important thing is to give one’s time and effort. A man or woman not doing that is not interested.
Delaying sex long enough to require and observe a male’s effort has been the #1 female filter since we first stood on two legs.
@Mikey
That says something about the men on this thread, not men in general.
Obviously. What you’re talking about is how to get a woman to be attracted to you when you’re pretty sure she would turn you down. So you run some Game and see if you can pique her interest. Nothing wrong with that.
But from a female POV, if you are attracted to a guy and he is not asking you out on dates, that’s a red flag.
Well, I made that point in the post. Dating starts happening after college, during one’s 20s. I can see that dating among 20-somethings is alive and well.
Most women mostly sit out the college hookup scene, as we’ve seen. They literally cannot wait to graduate in hopes of finding something better. The ones who want a relationship will freeze out the late night texters and players. Guys like Shani’s musician or Nick may get a shot, but they’re DQ’d at the first sign of assholery.
There was one idiotic woman in the Times article who eye f*cked a bouncer, went home with him and began a weekly hookup that petered out after four months. No sh*t that isn’t dating. She did not require dates – if she had filtered properly, she would never have gotten involved with him. Nothing wrong with that if that is what she was going for, but her complaining to the New York Times indicates she thought she might get a relationship out of it. Stupid girl.
@Charlotte
Good to see you again!
That is a great story, and not the least bit unusual. I hear variations on it all the time. It almost always involves guys who did OK hooking up in college, and understandably, they are reluctant to adapt. It doesn’t help that a lot of them don’t have great personalities – not an issue when you’re just hooking up after a party. His asking you to the coat check is an incredibly lame version of asking you to go to his room at the frat house.
The other thing I hear a lot about guys like this is that they are still interested in getting hammered every weekend. They generally want to drink at bars in packs, even when they’re seeing someone.
Haha, well there you go. Your gf is interested in the guy who acted all chivalrous and courtshippy. Women like that behavior from men they find attractive. And before someone says apex fallacy, there’s no way an alpha type would have behaved like that.
But Julie did tell Nick to fuck off and his response was to block her messages.
The difference is, you were filtering girlfriend behavior IN. Nick was filtering slut behavior IN and girlfriend behavior OUT.
I just don’t understand why more people aren’t worried they could pick up a disease from taking things too fast.
Also, if invited to meet up or hang out with somebody -that’s fine, friends do that. That’s the issue I have, though. If that’s how you always get together, how can you tell whether the other party is looking for friendship or something else?
But mostly, it’s the potential for diseases that worries me.
@ADBG
Why do you object to Charlotte’s taking pride in not being slutty? She has every reason to be self-righteous as a woman who does not hook up with strangers and has sex in relationships. She was right to tell Tall Lame Guy that she was not going home with him, obvs. And it is ridiculous that he got into a huff in response. Like hitting on a woman while getting your coat is hot or appropriate.
That guy is no doubt successful with slutty girls. So he’ll get more of that.
@Infantry
That strikes me as fair and reasonable. Presumably you don’t ask a woman on a date, meaning wink wink nudge nudge that you’ll text her late night on the appointed evening.
If a woman does not demonstrate value, she certainly shouldn’t expect a man to “buy in.”
I don’t think a “proper” date need include a costly dinner. In fact, those dates tend to be stiff and formal. Much better to do something active and casual, IMHO. I think it’s much easier for guys to be attractive when they’re doing something, not just having the first date interview.
@Susan
You wanted to know about places where there are more men…
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/us/16women.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0
Mike C – @ 61 – Nailed it!
Ladies – THIS is why price discrimination becomes a big deal for a guy. If he is wining and dining you and finds out you didn’t require it from other guys, consider that most men will DQ you on the spot. You get NO free pass on “but he was SOOOooo hot and I was SOooooo horny that it just happened!” because it is BS. What it really means to me is: you DO NOT have strong moral character, and you can’t be expected to follow the rules, even when they are your own.
Now that being said, it is TOTALLY different if you have decided that casual isn’t for you and you are switching tracks. But then, the burden of proving that you are genuine about that change of heart is on you.
Susan – “This is a question of character. Both sexes have every right to seek and demand character in a mate. In fact, I wish both sexes exercised this judgment more often.”
Seeing as you recognize this for what it is: a test of character, can you now at least see why some of us men were upset over your “wedding hookup” scenario? Women need to realize that THIS is a huge issue for many men: congruence of action and words. You can’t claim to be a “monogamy/LTR girl” and have a history of hooking up.(even if it isn’t a huge number) It just IS NOT congruent, and a guy with any sense would see it as a huge red flag.
Anne – “In other words, men have absolutely no clue what they want either?”
I think the issue is that men are finding it increasingly difficult to find the “date/court” girl that wasn’t the “meetup/hookup” girl sometime in her past. It isn’t a matter of not knowing what they want, it is a matter of not being able to find it in many cases.
@Madelena
This. I have a story. A girl I know recently met a guy at the gym. She’d noticed him looking at her a lot in recent months, but he never approached. Finally, they happened to be leaving at the same time and he introduced himself, they chatted. He suggested they trade numbers, which they did. The following weekend, he texted her at 10 and asked what she was doing. She was out with friends, so he asked if it was OK if he come join her with a few of his friends. She said sure, and they hung out in the group all night and had a great time. He confessed that he had wanted to meet her for ages, and that he was really glad he’d gotten the opportunity. He asked her on a date – nothing formal – he said he’d been craving chicken wings from this pub he used to go to in college. They went and had a great time again. He walked her home, kissed her goodnight and left.
Now, it was after this real date that the girl decided to Google this guy, and when she did she almost had a heart attack. He is a Wilhelmina model. (He also has another career, which is what he shared with her.) When she asked him why he hadn’t told her, he said, “I’m looking for a girl who likes me for me. I figured I might be able to tell that if you didn’t find out right away.”
The next weekend he introduced her to his family, saying, “It’s early days, I know that, but I like you a lot and I’ve told them about you and I want them to meet you.”
I have no idea where this will go. The point is, this guy has demonstrated high value – in the eyes of this girl – by showing respect and practicing the Principle of Most Interest. She is very attracted to him, but she would have DQ’d him if he’d acted like a player.
She is still on guard – having never actually, you know, seen a unicorn in real life.
Absolutely. Women should therefore immediately think “Unrestricted”, player, cad, etc. when approached in this manner. It doesn’t matter if the guy is a cad or just a player who doesn’t lie to women. He’s a STR guy, and those guys make poor LTR prospects.
@Nate
My beef is not with guys who want to hang out, it’s with guys who use the word date when making plans when what they really mean is “maybe I’ll see you out.”
I think women should be fine with meeting up in the early stages. Obviously, those meetups should not end in sex, IMO. But there’s nothing wrong with socializing in groups – it is the norm. However, if a guy wants more than sex he will seek more than sex. He will want alone time outside the din of a bar and the shenanigans of his buddies.
If I had to quantify, I’d say meet up twice, be friendly over text, and then move on if he doesn’t seek a one-on-one hang that is distinctly not sex-related.
@Johnny doe
How about you get me started with some relevant links to data about flaking? I came up empty with a quick search. I have some anecdotal data about flaking, but I’m afraid it applies to both sexes, so that’s not much help.
@Susan
It’s hard to avoid cost in NYC. Even the “activity” dates can be expensive. Bowling for instance, is one of my go-tos. It’s fun, you can get drinks during it, girls are generally bad at it so you can tease them, and there’s tons of opportunity for physical contact. However, 3 games of bowling for 2 people, with shoes+a few drinks can run $150.
Coffee is the only really cheap date out there, and I don’t do it because a) I don’t like coffee and b) some booze usually helps on a first date.
In terms of how dual-track functions for guys, I find it generally has to do with attractiveness. There’s the “cute enough to sleep with” and the “cute enough to date” categories. Girls in category A maybe get a couple of dates, but after that they get the weekend meetup texts. Girls in category B generally get the full-on dates investment. The threshold for whom a guy will hook up with when he’s out at a bar and tipsy vs. when he’s sober on a weeknight at a restaurant is much lower.
No it didn’t. I see it all around me, the churches have weddings booked every weekend. People are falling in love and committing to one another. The local tot lot is filled with parents and toddlers.
Someone is getting married, and it’s not alpha assholes. 80% of men and women* are going about their business and living their lives following a traditional courtship model.
*those with a college education
@Ana
The thing is, that guy is not bad looking! What on earth is he thinking?
@Susan
In my experience, “meet-ups” are not even dates. They’re the equivalent of importing a new girl to the bar you’re at, one you know you have a very good chance of taking home. I’ve never known a guy to use a meet-up for anything except an attempt to take the girl home.
@Maven3
Not really. If you can’t get girls to hook up with you after dates, it’s because you have no game. Of the girls I’ve slept with since I graduated college, probably it’s probably 25/75 split between dates and bar hookups respectively. However, that’s only because on dates I filter aggressively for gf attributes, and only go on 3+ dates with girls I think have a shot (hence I’ve ditched many girls after date 1 or 2 who I likely could have slept with had I kept going). Also, the women I’ve slept with after dating are easily of a higher caliber in every sense than those I’ve met at bars. Better looking, smarter, better character, etc. And if you count the girls I haven’t slept with but have hooked up with after dates, that gap is even wider.
Susan, I wouldn’t ask a girl out on a ‘date’ and then change gears to try to make it a hookup like that guy did. When I was only interested in a hookup I made sure the girl knew what she was getting into (not in precise words, but by heavily implying my interests).
As for ‘dates’, I keep things casual for the first date because of two reasons. One, as other guys have mentioned here, strong early investment scares women off (and I’ll get to why in a moment). Two, I want to avoid being chumped as I have been in the past. I prefer coffee/drinks first ‘dates’ because I have a lot of interesting stories and I know how to use rich descriptions. Date 3 I’m usually entertaining her at my house where I genuinely enjoy cooking for my guest. I don’t have a hard timeframe on getting intimate.
Now as for your story of the model and the girl at the gym, it reminded me of a recent interview with Ryan Gosling. He said something along the lines of how he didn’t lift weights at the gym because see the point in big muscles and preferred gymnastics. His story may or may not be bullshit, but he could get away with saying this sort of thing that flies in the face of typical game theory because once you have a certain level of attractiveness (looks, prestige, power), the rules no longer apply to you.
A girl wants the man she’s already qualified as ‘attractive’ to go all in with a heavy investment of expensive candlelit dinner or the like. His value is worn on his sleeve. Of course girls want the confident models of the world to ask them for dinner.
The average guy needs to pass the barrage of congruency/fitness testing before the girl finds him attractive and going all out straight away is likely to either make her see him as needy or being a try hard.
Its safer for everyone to avoid expensive, long or complicated dates until they’ve qualified each other (at least to some baseline). No girl wants to feel guilty or pressured about a date and no man with a modicum of game would want that either.
@ Lokland
DING DING DING!! We have a winner!!!
@ Susan Walsh
Exactly.
@Zach
That photo of two single guys on the dance floor cracked me up. Yikes. That reminds me of the West Coast during the Gold Rush. Mail order brides and all that.
@Ted
No, because I don’t expect guys wanting a virgin to select women who hook up at weddings. I think that equilibrium is maintained when both parties have similar sexual histories, to be honest. The woman with N = 3 who makes it 4 at a destination wedding is still going to clear the bar for most guys. That is, if he even asks. I’ve noticed lately that there are more reports of guys not even wanting to know – Elise’s live-in bf has refused to even discuss sexual history.
@Zach
Wow, that’s ridiculous. I agree that’s a winner, though. Here is the article I saw about popular dates:
A romantic stroll down the High Line is the number one date among New Yorkers looking for love, according to a report.
A walk through Central Park and a trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art are close contenders. Those locations snagged second and third place respectively in HowAboutWe.com’s list of the best date spots in the city.
“…They’re all great venues,” Ariana Anthony, a spokesperson for the Brooklyn-based site, told the Daily News in an e-mail. “I can’t say I’m surprised that New Yorkers love beautiful parks, expansive museums, beer-fueled brewery tours, or live music and bowling.”
Williamsburg favorites Brooklyn Brewery and Brooklyn Bowl rounded out the top five list.
HowAboutWe.com analyzed over one million date suggestions posted on their site between January 2010 and September 2012 to come up with the interesting tidbits about singles’ love lives, Anthony explained.
Some of the other date suggestion data looks at what most New Yorkers like to eat, drink and do on their outings.
The High Line beat out Central Park and the Metropolitan Museum of Art as the top date spot in New York, according to HowAboutWe.com.
The winners range from the predictable (The most popular food to eat on a date is frozen yogurt) to the unexpected (The most popular date activity is playing board games.)
HowAboutWe.com’s list, of course, isn’t limited to the Big Apple.
The Santa Monica Pier tops the best date spots in Los Angeles, where the most popular dating activity is going to the beach and the most popular food to eat with a love interest is pizza.
In Washington D.C., people often choose to eat cupcakes on dates and like to take companions to the National Mall or a Nationals baseball game.
Tapas, meanwhile, wins as the most popular date food in Chicago, where singles like to go on dates at Millenium Park and the Art Institute of Chicago.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/high-line-top-date-spot-new-york-city-report-article-1.1235964#ixzz2I9PbUpjY
Then Category A girls need to lower their standards. Seriously. If you can get two dates with Zach and then he fizzles it, he’s out of your league. Of course, that is more than OK for the girl who just wants the hookup.
@Zach
Really? So the meetup suggestion itself is a red flag? Obviously, if that’s true, then only guys looking for casual would even attempt it.
This is what I was talking about earlier. Dates are not the problem. Being viewed as attractive enough to go on dates with is the problem that many men have.
I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again. I’ve seen women falling all over themselves to go on dates with men that they considered attractive. I’ve also seen women stuck in dead end “FWB” relationships with guys they are attracted to, desperately hoping that these guys will ask them out on proper dates instead. The dates are not the problem. I think a lot of men just have problems with presenting themselves in ways that spark attraction with women that they are attracted to.
@Susan
Eh, idk about lowering their standards. I’m particularly picky, since I’m not generally looking for casual sex. For instance, I was out on a 2nd date last week with a girl. She’s attractive, certainly attractive enough to hook up with on a regular basis. However, I wasn’t at all feeling it conversation or personality-wise. If I’d really wanted to just hook up with her, I would’ve kept amping up the tension, and then used that to try and get her to come home with me. However, I was so blase about it that I just let the conversation drift more into friend-territory. At the end of the date I told her about my roommate’s bday and that she should come, but it was a “if she comes, great, if not, who cares” thing. That doesn’t mean I’m way out of her league, it just means I wasn’t that into it. Some of my other friends, who really are heavily concentrated on getting the girl into bed, would have kept going with the tension and game-playing the whole date. I just don’t care enough anymore.
And yes, meetup is a red flag 90% of the time. It’s extremely low-investment and effort, and falls into the “if she comes, great, if not, fine” category. Low-risk, high-reward. If she doesn’t come, no big deal. If she does, you’ve now got a girl there who’s obviously into you. It’s not a way to get to know her better, except physically. Now if the guy’s already been on 2-3 dates with the girl, that’s a different story.
Re: men paying for dates. My opinion: the man should pay, even if the woman initiates. Yes, you will probably get chumped a few times, so you should aggressively pre-filter and not use a traditional courtship-style date as an early, pre-physicality exploratory meeting (unless you have the discretionary cash to throw at these problems and the ironic detachment to absorb the inevitable losses with good humor).
These days, the courtship style dating is for a special girl in your life. Given the array of daytime/coffee dates, late-night IMing (often with photo sharing), and meet-ups and hook-ups that are available today, you probably already know that you are compatible on several dimensions (attraction, personality, lifestyle/interests, sexually, etc.) before you enter a more intense trad-date phase.
Trad dating can also provide its own form of finishing-school-level test: a girl has an opportunity to stop you from endless cash outlays, to suggest less-expensive options, and to establish that she has the home econ/fiduciary responsibility qualities that separate a future wife and budget-conscious domestic partner from an adversarial good-time girl who is hell-bent on resource extraction. You are giving the more mercenary girl enough rope to hang herself.
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