Witnessing the Painful Fallout of Female Promiscuity

kLast week, new reader Nancy stumbled onto an old post I wrote about one risk of female promiscuity that no one likes to talk about. It led her to share a story that is painful to read, but I offer it here as a public service announcement. 

Millennial women, be aware. Feminism did not rid society of the sexual double standard. Men remain loath to commit to women with considerable previous sexual experience. Why? Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child, which is obviously not in his best interest. He sees your past as a valid predictor of your future behavior. 

The other thing you should be aware of is that the truth will out. Hiding your past for a lifetime is extremely difficult logistically, but it is also very burdensome psychologically to keep that secret. 

From Nancy:

Women need the raw and honest truth.

Women who plan on finding ‘the one’ and getting married one day please, please, PLEASE listen to what these men have to say. I wish more than ANYTHING that I had this valuable insight into how men think and feel about sex, and promiscuous women when I was a teenager. If I have a daughter I will be educating her on this valubale life lesson. I feel like now, at the age of 29, I’m only just learning about men. My eyes have finally been opened. How could I have been so blinded before???

I’m so incredibly sad. I’m living a life full of regret. I am now married to the most wonderful man – he is every woman’s dream:

First impressions: handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male, excellent communicator.

Lasting impressions: loving, caring, kind, the provider, amazing lover.

Women throw themselves at him.. And he chose to be with me.

Unfortunately I didn’t save myself for him. I was promiscuous when I was single and my sexual past is putting a HUGE strain on our relationship. It is the ONLY thing we fight about. He loves me and cares for me, but he doesn’t respect me. I hope and pray that we can get through this. Your past DOES matter and it will always come back to haunt you.

When my husband and I first started dating he told me that he had issues with promiscuous women, and he asked me what I was like when I was single. I didn’t reveal to him my exact number, I simply said, “I haven’t slept with many guys”. Amongst my circle of friends it was considered a below average number, but on a global scale I now realise it’s a very high number.

At the time he was satisfied with my answer.. But 6 months later the topic came up again. He wanted an exact number. I did what many women do, and I lied. I told him 10 less than the actual number. That number already doubled his acceptable quota, and he was really disgusted with me. However, he stayed with me.

Another 6 months later I finally came clean and confessed my real number. He was SO close to just ending it with me right then and there. Not only was I a slut, but I was a liar, which was even worse. Breaking trust in a relationship is the WORST thing you can ever do. He was so angry with me for ‘pulling the wool over his eyes’..for trying to make myself appear better than I really was. I just didn’t want him to judge me for my past. I wanted him to get to know me as a person first, and love and accept me for who I am today. He says that what I did wasn’t fair because he fell in love with me…but he hates my past. There’s no way in hell he would’ve got involved with me if he’d known how many people I’d slept with.

Over one year later we’re still together and recently got married. He now knows everything about me. My past is shamful and embarrassing, but it feels really good to be open and honest with him. There are no more secrets. He is doing his best to love and accept me for who I am. He knows that I am a good person, and a loving wife with a lot to offer. He just wishes I made better choices in my past. Some days are really hard and he can’t stop thinking about the things that I’ve done. I feel badly and think that he could’ve had any girl in the world – an innocent girl – but instead he’s stuck with me. Damaged goods.

Nancy then offers advice on how women can keep their number low:

Make him work for it – Play hard to get. Let him wine and dine you. Let him chase you. Be his prize. Never be easy. Never give in. Go on many dates. Get to know him before you give yourself to him. Don’t be naive and sleep in his bed (or he in yours) and think you’ll ‘just cuddle’. He will keep trying and trying until you give in and he has his way with you. Then it’s all over red rover. You blew it!

I won’t endorse the advice exactly as written, because it sets expectations too high for male investment early on in a feminist era. However, I will say that Nancy has the right idea – the most important thing women can do is aggressively filter out men who want no-strings sex. David Buss’ seminal book The Evolution of Desire explains the importance this strategy: 

The key problem women have always had to face is selecting a man who would be willing to commit to a long-term relationship.  A woman who mated with a reliable man who was more likely to commit to her was more likely to have children that survived and thrived.  A mate who was flighty, impulsive, and philandering meant a woman had to raise her children alone, without benefit of the resources, protection and aid that another man might have offered.  So, over thousands of generations, a preference for men who showed signs of being willing and able to commit evolved in women.

The great initial parental investment of women makes them a valuable but limited resource.  Reproductive resources cannot be allocated indiscriminately or dispensed to many men. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates.  If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost.  But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years.  We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.

…Evolution has favored women who prefer men who possess attributes that confer benefits and who dislike men who possess attributes that impose costs.

…Because sex is one of the most valuable reproductive resources women can offer, they have evolved psychological mechanisms that cause them to resist giving it away indiscriminately.  Requiring love, sincerity and kindness is a way of securing a commitment of resources commensurate with the value of the resource that women give up to men.

Our culture penalizes women who hold out and require commitment before they have sex. It’s far from easy. Unfortunately, you have only two  choices:

Strategy A: Hold out.

Strategy B: Give in. 

Nancy is a tragic example of Strategy B. She has generously shared her story as a witness to the fallout. 

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • George

    While I appreciate that Nancy wants to give out this warning I can’t help but note, that doing whatever she wanted when she was young and then lying about it to her SO worked for her, it’s not really a good message. If you can lie just long enough for him to invest you’ll be good. I also disagree with the make him work for it. I am a first time poster but I have been reading so I know this comes up a lot but when I meet a girl I assume she’s had a lot of partners, I also assume that with those partners she didn’t make them invest if she liked them enough or was saying yolo or whatever, so I’m not really going to put a lot of work into someone who isn’t going to do the same for me or it’s like, why are they good enough to not have to invest but not me? It’s really a statement the value a woman is putting on you when she expects an investment from you but not others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      I can’t help but note, that doing whatever she wanted when she was young and then lying about it to her SO worked for her, it’s not really a good message.

      I don’t think it did work for her, that’s the takeaway message here. Her husband is still extremely bothered by her history, and this is affecting their relationship and making them both miserable. I think her message is that there is no escaping the consequences.

      when I meet a girl I assume she’s had a lot of partners, I also assume that with those partners she didn’t make them invest if she liked them enough or was saying yolo or whatever

      This is why slut shaming would be useful when done by other women. The default male assumption is now that all women are sluts. That puts more restricted women in a no win situation. They have to “prove” their lack of sexual experience. How does one do that?

      It’s really a statement the value a woman is putting on you when she expects an investment from you but not others.

      I get the price discrimination problem, but again, this is not an issue with women who have not been promiscuous. How can a woman convince a man she is not holding him to different standards than the men in her past?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    I must obviously raise the obvious feminist screed that would be raised after reading this heartening post.

    “That woman should have walked away from such an insecure and scared little boy of a woman who obviously embraced her sexuality. She’d be better off without him..”

    .. and now the feminists are off to go feed their 49 cats.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    I don’t think her problem was that she used to be promiscuous as much as it is the fact that she lied about it, and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself. She could have been honest from the beginning and he either could have accepted it and continued their relationship or not and moved on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ashley

      to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.

      That’s not accurate. He did not have a requirement that he be her first lover – he had a quota in mind.

      Furthermore, I laid out in the post precisely why it is not insecurity. It has nothing to do with the male ego, and everything to do with the evolved male instinct to avoid being cuckolded.

      Finally, had she been honest from the beginning she obviously would have wound up throwing back this big fish. Women lie precisely because they understand very well that most men will move on.

  • PokerCat

    Yes, her ‘number’ is an issue here, but the lies make it that much worse. This has little to do with male/female relationships, and more to do with honesty.

    The past is the past, it’s done, and I do believe people can grow and change. But the lies are a huge red flag. Can we honestly take her story at face value when she admits to such a betrayal?

  • JP

    @Ashley:

    “She could have been honest from the beginning and he either could have accepted it and continued their relationship or not and moved on.”

    She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    ps. i have a few posts that i could link to regarding female promiscuity that could help.. but i dare say some of your readership might be too gentile or fragile for it ;)

    And George is right. This woman got lucky that she held the lie out long enough and that this guys inner beta couldn’t do what someone with options would have done in a second by nexting her for such a lie. (or perhaps the legal entanglement of divorce is just too much for him to endure compared to knowing he’s less special than the 43 other men she let inside her.. take your pick)

    Here, from a neutral, non crass, male perspective. Heed it well.

    http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/42_dating_advice.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      Great article. “one for each of my birthdays” LOL

  • Maven3

    “doing whatever she wanted when she was young and then lying about it to her SO worked for her, it’s not really a good message”

    Nah… I don’t think so.
    I assume she’s still reasonable good looking (well, guy is described like he has options) and that will work for her for next few years.

    I got my share of sluts and I feel strange disgust when I am fucking a well-used girl. If chick is pretty, my arousal overpowers disgust, but it’s always temporary. Next day I am wondering who else have been putting my dick into that. Imagine that day for day for few years.

    IMHO, she should just shut up and never give her number.

    Pretty girls just have greater amount of leeway, but it ends sooner or later (later sooner). I would like to see if they are still together in 3-5 years…

  • Michael Maier

    Ashley perfectly exemplifies female thinking when she puts “his woman” in quotes.

    You want him to buy in whole hog, but NOT to think of anything resembling possessiveness.

    That’s beyond stupid.

  • George

    I agree a high number by itself is an issue (I don’t believe her # is actually given.) Lying about is a second issue stacked on top of that.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ JP
    “She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.”

    Catastrophic TO HER and her desire for a relationship with HIM.

    No one is entitled to a relationship. Lying to get one like this is like lying to a woman about wanting to marry her just to pump n dump her.

  • taterearl

    While I don’t doubt her husband displays most of the qualities she said…he is certainly not alpha.

    Committing to a known slut and a liar is what a beta does. And let’s face it I still believe a woman knows her true value by the guy she marries.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    i find the content of comments #2 and #3 to be particularly amusing in the order they are presented.

    *big shit eating grin*

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    M3, keep on eating that shit lol.

    Jk. Kind of.

  • Escoffier

    Sounds like the guy married her AFTER she had lied and then come clean. So, really, while I sympathize, he has as it were made his bed and must now lie in it.

    I had this happen to me, not with the first girl I dated but with the first one I dated for a long time. In her case, the true number was still very low and the time lapse between the lie and voluntarily coming clean was very short, days or weeks (I can’t remember the details). It was a horrible scene when it happened but I got over it rather quickly. Basically, the facts that the number was low, that I didn’t have to hear the truth from someone else but she told me without being caught, and that she did so quickly all counted in her favor.

    What girls need to understand is that most guys will TOLERATE a low number because that’s just the way the world is today. But no guy says, “Gee, that virgin over there, nah, for an LTR she needs an N of at least 3.” Players may not like virgins but guys looking for a mate merely tolerate a past, they don’t value it for its own sake or think it’s some value-added to her personality.

    And once you get above a certain point, toleration evaporates. Nancy lied her number down by 10, from what to what, we don’t know. But if 10 was the delta, the N had to be huge, I’m guessing. 10 is a total deal breaker for me in any case. Not that this is relevant to my actual life but as she noted, it’s good for girls to know what guys actually think.

  • JP

    “No one is entitled to a relationship.”

    Relationships stabilize emotions because of the nature of the bond.

    It’s not a question of entitlement, it’s a question of a basic human need.

    The question is whether the relationship is stable and whether she’s going to cheat going forward.

  • taterearl

    They have to “prove” their lack of sexual experience. How does one do that?

    Attitude.

    Don’t talk about sex…or all their “boyfriends”.
    Be pleasant.
    Dress modestly.
    Avoid tattoos and piercings that are meant for attention.

    Most guys have an intuition about who is a slut. Sluts give away who they are through their attitude.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @taterearl

      Most guys have an intuition about who is a slut. Sluts give away who they are through their attitude.

      OK, but in that case it’s not necessary to assume all women are sluts.

  • Escoffier

    RE: insecurity, I don’t see the big deal here. I mean, so what if guys are insecure about a girl’s past? Maybe that insecurity is rational.

    E.g., if a girl really did ride the carousel and bang a lot of hot alphas who got her super turned on, but who would not commit to her, it’s rational for a beta to worry that he won’t be able to satisfy her long term even if he offers commitment, resources and security.

    In other words, I don’t think the only reason men worry about N is fear of cheating/cuckolding. Suppose a man could be assured that a former slut had truly reformed and really would never cheat on him. Which I think is the case of most UMC urban career girls. My guess is that these ladies who may have had a very wild time in their 20s, once they marry, by and large don’t cheat. But who wants to be the guy forever being compared (if only in her heart/mind) unfavorably to all her hook-ups, even if she doesn’t cheat on you?

    Call that “insecure” if you want. Fine, I accept the label. It’s not irrational.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @EScoffier

      But who wants to be the guy forever being compared (if only in her heart/mind) unfavorably to all her hook-ups, even if she doesn’t cheat on you?

      Call that “insecure” if you want. Fine, I accept the label. It’s not irrational.

      Good point. The guys here call them “fuck phantoms” for a reason.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Yikes, I went away for a few hours and the comments here jumped from 20 to 170! Obviously a subject near and dear to the hearts of many.

  • taterearl

    “OK, but in that case it’s not necessary to assume all women are sluts.”

    No…but if she talks like a slut, looks like a slut, walks like a slut, then she a duck.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Ashley
    “M3, keep on eating that shit lol. / Jk. Kind of.”

    NOM NOM NOM :P

    @ JP
    “It’s not a question of entitlement, it’s a question of a basic human need.”

    One could say the same thing about sex, and we ALL KNOW that no one is entitled to it, at least no GUY is.. as far as the NiceGuys of OKCupid Tumblr fiasco taught us…

    Of course relationships are wonderful… but denying a person the information to make an informed choice as to whether this person wants a relationship with YOU because you’re no longer *proud* of having slept around like a champion race jockey…

    A picture like this leaves me speechless.
    http://whoism3.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hmm.jpg

  • JP

    “In other words, I don’t think the only reason men worry about N is fear of cheating/cuckolding.”

    I think that Susan is saying that this is sub-consious revulsion that can’t be turned on or off.

  • George

    “Here, from a neutral, non crass, male perspective. Heed it well.

    http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/42_dating_advice.html

    I personally think this article is BS. I obviously do agree that women sleep around too much (in a nutshell argument) but the author suggests waiting three months. I’m not doing that no matter how much I like a girl. If I though she was marraige material in every other way and truly valued her deeply on every level I would walk away from waiting three months, and I don’t even have the options (due to my own issues surrounding women, largely concerning the kind of thing being discussed here, it’s actually how I found this website. It’s not a lack of desireability.) some guys do. I don’t have no options either but I wouldn’t wait that long.

    I disagree about the categories. I absolutely would continue seeing a woman after ONS. I view it the same this website espouse that women do. It’s really a foot in the door. If she hasn’t had sex with quickly I’d actually be afraid of her being bored or not invested and leaving. I have sex quickly as a means to get her to stick around and give me a real chance instead of an instant DQ for some arbitrary reason.

    I do have self control I’ve probably turned down more sex than I’ve had. I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly, but just to do it more discriminately, and not to go through a “sowing your wild oats” phase. Sow your wild oats while dating real guys who you are actually interested in LT dating, chances are you won’t marry the first guy you date, so you will get a reasonable amount of experience without becoming a slut. But along with goes investigating what you are looking for and discovering what you truly value instead of letting your hamster (I hope I used that right, I’m new to all this jargon) run the show. I know women will say if you sleep with him quickly he will assume your a slut. Maybe I’m the exception but I never assumed a woman was a slut b/c she slept with me quickly. I do assume it b/c of the culture and that’s all that’s presented and it’s what I see women I know doing, but not b/c she went to bed w/me quickly. I don’t know how that works but that’s how it is for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly, but just to do it more discriminately, and not to go through a “sowing your wild oats” phase.

      The exact same instinct that makes men recoil at the thought of women with a lot of sexual experience judges women based on how quickly they have sex. Yes, guys want a woman to be easy to get just for them. But there’s no easy way of knowing the facts. I’ve heard plenty of guys here say that they’ll go for it if she allows sex, but when they like a girl, they’re actually hoping she says no in the early days.

      I understand that guys worried about price discrimination feel strongly that a woman needs to have sex quickly to insure against that. The problem with that strategy is that when it works, all you’ve proven is that a potentially promiscuous woman was promiscuous with you too. That’s no bueno for a LTR. You need a strategy that proves (or at least makes you confident) that the woman has applied the same standard of waiting consistently.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    I’d say it’s rational for a woman to think twice about a man’s commitment if he’s in front of her on bended knee asking for her hand in marriage..

    whilst using the same engagement ring he used to propose to the last 15 women he’s married/divorced.

    But you’re #16 sweetheart.. and you’re going to be special, so much moreso than those other ladies…

    Except where they got to enjoy his power, money and prestige early on, he’s now broke and destitute so you’ll need to take care of him and fix him a sammich or two to earn his commitment. Those other 15 girls meant nothin, now he’s looking to settle down, he’s tired of playing the games, he’s looking for someone REAL to build a life with ya know?

    Take the ring.. husband him up.. what a catch! No commitment / fidelity warnings to see here.. move along ;)

  • Steve

    This woman sleeps around for years and then gets the handsome quality husband. As a man, this story disgusts me.

    Who is this pathetic guy who married her? She admits to having way too many sexual partners by his standards, but he stays with her. She admits to him that she lied about her number, and then he still stays with her. And worst of all this guy marries her, even though he is disgusted with her high number of past sexual partners. Just a dumb guy. He should have dumped her when he first learned her number. Why does a man does this to himself? He must think he doesn’t deserve better.

  • George

    @ Susan

    It did work because they got married. The only reason it can even be an issue now is because her initial lie worked. He got invested and by the time the truth came he was in love. An issue now that they are married, but it would have been a non starter for him, so the message could be construed as “lie long enough to get him hooked, then use that leverage to deal with an issue that you know is a deal breaker for him” not the best strategy admittedly but it still had the desired outcome for her and less so for him, even if it wasn’t in the best possible way. Even though it is negative for them both I say better for her b/c in the end she got what she wanted, LTR, and he didn’t, woman with low N, even if it’s not perfect, the lie paid off for her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      Even though it is negative for them both I say better for her b/c in the end she got what she wanted, LTR, and he didn’t, woman with low N, even if it’s not perfect, the lie paid off for her.

      You’re right, that makes sense.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ George
    “I do have self control I’ve probably turned down more sex than I’ve had.”

    Then you are in the 10% of men club. Congratulations! This article and it’s details about what the other 90% of men feel do not apply to you. Carry on.

    “I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly”
    Leading lambs to the slaughter…
    *shakes head*

  • taterearl

    Let’s not forget the demons from her past she’s airing out as well. Even if you have the heart of a saint…you can’t fight those demons she has. You already have your own to deal with plus you are sorely outnumbered.

    Every woman has some baggage…but it’s better to marry a woman with a hobo sack full of baggage verses one who bought out a luggage store.

  • taterearl

    @ Steve…

    That’s why I don’t think the guy is as alpha or high quality like this women states.

    If he was able to get other women he would have NEXT her.

  • JP

    “If he was able to get other women he would have NEXT her.”

    The women flinging themselves at you are generally not the ones you want to date.

    At least, that’s been my experience.

  • taterearl

    ” I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly, but just to do it more discriminately, and not to go through a “sowing your wild oats” phase. ”

    Being discriminate doesn’t change biology, being discriminate doesn’t change what she thinks of herself, being discriminate doesn’t change the demons that come.

    I’ll rob a bank but as long as I don’t hurt anybody it’s okay for me to steal money.

    Does not compute. The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.

      +1

  • JP

    “I’ll rob a bank but as long as I don’t hurt anybody it’s okay for me to steal money.”

    That’s more a morality issue (greed) than a sexuality issue (innate drive).

    I think the problem is that we’ve conflated morality and sexuality (in bad ways) which has not been good.

  • Just1Z

    a) Oh Ashley, oh noes!! You’ve let yourself down there.

    and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself

    really?

    shaming language? is that all you’ve got? dear, oh dear.

    this has been done to death on this blog before (as well as what Susan wrote above) – most men don’t like the women that they wish to invest in having high N. They don’t care about the N of ONS / P&D.

    Too bad that you don’t like it, that it is inconvenient – it is how most men feel about it.

    Even whasisface, the sad old hippy, gave in and admitted that he had standards over the N he’d commit to. In his defence he took a bloody long time getting round to fessing up.

    (b) he married her after that!!!!!?????
    what a fecking idiot. Sooner, or later, he or she is going to have this issue eat them down to the core – then cue divorce. what an idiot.

  • George

    @ Steve: “He must think he doesn’t deserve better.”
    Or he doesn’t feel convinced there’s anything else out there, that’s how it seems from my perspective. Accept a woman with high N, or be alone forever.

    @M3: Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.

  • Bill

    I’ve been lurking on this site for several months and it’s kind of weird that this topic would bring me out of hiding.

    It sounds like the guys here are exceptionally insecure about their sexual capabilities. Yes, some other guy may have outperformed you in some way at some time in the past. It’s kind of wimpy want to be the biggest fish in the pond by arranging to be the only fish that’s ever been there.

    Personally, I’ve never once asked about my spouse’s sexual history (although I know there was some, maybe a lot. I’m sure some guy had a bigger penis, lasted longer, etc.). She wasn’t slutty when we were dating and she’s been absolutely devoted to me.

  • George

    To continue, that is problem with women treating their sexuality like gold. The way hookup culture is if she wants me to chase and hold out for sex, I’m going to assume it’s something she’s only doing to me. Why would I chase when others don’t have to. Also as was discussed n the comments in the last article (I think) Me chasing sets up an imbalanced power dynamic from the word go. She is of higher status and it is my job to “get” her somehow.

  • VD

    But if 10 was the delta, the N had to be huge, I’m guessing. 10 is a total deal breaker for me in any case. Not that this is relevant to my actual life but as she noted, it’s good for girls to know what guys actually think.
    It all depends upon your perspective. You can’t really even have a total deal breaker because nearly all women who aren’t virgins lie, and lie without shame or regret about it. I’ve caught out over a dozen women simply by remember what they said at one time versus another time without even asking them about it.

    I don’t think her problem was that she used to be promiscuous as much as it is the fact that she lied about it, and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.

    No, the problem is the number. Nearly all women lie. And Susan has already pointed out your error with regards to her ever having been with anyone else. I also suggest you drop the passive-aggressiveness about the male concerns about the statistically proven link between N, unfaithfulness and divorce somehow being tantamount to “insecurity”. If you’re going to look at it that way, all men who rank above low delta are “insecure”.

    Which is ironic, because it is the gammas and low deltas who actually are insecure. Don’t be that girl. It won’t serve you well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      nearly all women who aren’t virgins lie, and lie without shame or regret about it. I’ve caught out over a dozen women simply by remember what they said at one time versus another time without even asking them about it.

      I wish I could refute this but based on my experience I have to agree. I would adjust it slightly in the sense that of the young women I’ve known, those at 3 or under in their 20s do not lie. They know that puts them in restricted territory, and few guys will object.

      The other thing is that I know several virgins who have lied, for fear of coming across as a prude, religious type, unattractive, etc. Usually virgins will give a number from 1-3. I’ve also heard women in the 1-2 range say they are a bit higher than that.

      The SMP is very screwed up.

      I do think that while most women wouldn’t hesitate to fudge the number downward, many will fret about it over time. They worry that he’ll find out somehow, which is indeed likely if she was a slut, or they feel really guilty when he expresses his pleasure that she has been chaste. We see in this story how Nancy really couldn’t bear to continue the subterfuge.

      I know I would not have wanted to start a marriage with that kind of deceit in place.

  • Escoffier

    Funny how all of the most (self-described) “secure” guys married sluts and we “insecure” guys didn’t. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Funny how all of the most (self-described) “secure” guys married sluts and we “insecure” guys didn’t. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.

      I edited Nancy’s comment a bit, but one thing she said was that Tom was sugarcoating things for women. Hmmm.

  • Remo

    The problem here is that these women pay no price for their promiscuity and like everything else in life, force others to pay for their bad decisions. This is what men resent. The girls ride the carousel for years, jump off when they hit the wall, brazenly label it “the past” claiming this should make it not matter/i.e. null and void, then act clueless as to why the guy would be upset that this is now his burden. He gets to imagine his wife servicing lots of different men and she gets the Cinderella/Snow White/Sleeping beauty prince charming *anyway*, because we all know the prince would have fought just as hard and been just as happy if after slaying the dragon he had to pry her lips off some other guys c**k before riding off into the sunset.

    Sleeping with men other than your husband dramatically and forever lowers your value in his eyes. You have given away something that should be special and reserved for him to others for much less cost. He gets to pay a lot more for what you handed out like Christmas candy to others on the cheap. His own value and self respect are the victims of your actions – the very thing he measures himself against. Girls don’t care because their innate solipsism denies this is a problem – they don’t care so no else should have the right too and it certainly shouldn’t get in the way of her picket fence and McManshion. Her chief complaint mind you isn’t that she was with these other guys (i.e. sincere repentance) but the fact that *he is upset about it*. Rather like looking at the parents of a child you just murdered because it was fun to do at the time and then being upset that they won’t invite you to their Christmas parties anymore. How unfair! It’s in the past!

    As little as 60 years ago (and thousands of years continuously before this) female chastity was considered a serious matter because men cared about it. Now with enlightened feminine supremacy having replaced religion, values, and civilization, and solipsism backed up by shame and the law of the land, this is now not to be considered and men are to suffer in silence and are lacking character if they care about it all – i.e. you may not care about it because doing so upsets cupcake and worse demands responsibility for past actions. There is no greater distaste in the female world than for that of responsibility – someone else ALWAYS should pay, never her, so “get past it”, that was “in the past” i.e. “stop ruining my sparkly fantasy Barbie dream house future which I SOOO deserve with your negative appraisal of my value because I am a slut”. Prince charming should be just as willing to kill a dragon for a whore as a maiden, just ask feminists.

    And yes that is how many men feel – particularly betas who get the spoiled, rotting, leftovers and are shamed into pretending they have steak OR ELSE – the burden is theirs never their wives beyond her distaste at being seen by him as she really is not how she wants to pretend to be. She gets to do whatever she wanted and then pushes off the penalty onto him. Rather like her giving you a nasty case of Herpees but for her it just never flares up again.

    This couple will get divorced in a few years and it will be all HIS FAULT – just ask her. He will be labeled a terrible person for refusing to able to deal with her history and she will be further rewarded and he further punished by the divorce apparatus which will legally rape him continuously for the rest of his life. All parties will silently agree that while she maybe should not have lied (and really cupcake we don’t hold you responsible for that *or anything else!*) it really is purely and totally his fault.

    This will not get better for him because he is actively being told that he is a bad person because the spoiled meat he is eating is NOT steak, and he can’t override his brain constantly reminding of this fact. He values his wife much less because THIS IS A NORMAL MALE REACTION TO FEMALE PROMISCUITY and he can’t simply turn off that biological reaction on feminist command despite being told this is politically incorrect – he is therefore a meany poo and should be condemned. Step one – post drippy self righteous post on popular board coached as a warning to others then bask in the glory of everyone agreeing that it really is his fault that the can’t handle your slutty past.

    You may now go back to your standard programming. Men are bad for considering this. I am bad for writing it. Men who care about this are religious zealots with small penises who are insecure and have cooties. Her only crime was lying about how many murders she committed NOT the murders themselves. Consume. Stay asleep. Man up and marry those sluts. Future divorce lawyers income streams count on you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      This couple will get divorced in a few years and it will be all HIS FAULT – just ask her. He will be labeled a terrible person for refusing to able to deal with her history and she will be further rewarded and he further punished by the divorce apparatus which will legally rape him continuously for the rest of his life.

      I don’t think so. I have no idea whether they will get divorced, but Nancy has taken responsibility – at least give her that much. She does regret the casual sex.

      You know how betas gripe because they were lied to about what women find attractive?

      As someone who came of age in the 70s I can assure you that women were lied to about what men find attractive, or in this case, unattractive. In addition, we have many men offering reassurance that “I’ll respect you in the morning.” I know from my own focus groups that young women are genuinely surprised guys care about this issue as much as they do. I’ve seen women get devastated when some guy with a high N balked at their 10-20 number. They never saw it coming.

  • JP

    “This couple will get divorced in a few years and it will be all HIS FAULT – just ask her.”

    It’s his job to “man up” and make the decision whether he wants to stay with her now.

    Either divorce her or decide to stay with her.

    If they do get divorced in a few years, it’s his fault only because its his job to take action and dump her soon after he knew the truth if he decided it was a deal breaker.

  • Cooper

    “I won’t endorse the advice exactly as written, because it sets expectations too high for male investment early on in a feminist era.”

    I don’t care what era we’re in, I’d actually endorse it. (*Help yourself to the grains of salt, to the left*)

    Young women won’t listen to Nancy’s advice, on how men “think and feel about sex”, as long as we have women like Ashley pigeonholing the exact same thing as insecurity!!!!! (Or shaming like Just1Z appropriately put it)

  • Just1Z

    @JP

    If they do get divorced in a few years, it’s his fault only because its his job to take action and dump her soon after he knew the truth if he decided it was a deal breaker.

    yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce. not the least reason for which is that he should do it now. I still can’t believe that he married her…arse

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce.

      Wow, I don’t understand why people are demonizing Nancy. She shared her story to vindicate the male opinion, and took responsibility for the fallout that she acknowledges she caused. She obviously loves her husband and has been honest so that other women don’t make the same mistakes. Yes, she originally lied to her husband but she came clean and he chose to marry her.

      The harsh judgment and superiority of some here is really over the top. Disappointed.

  • Remo

    “yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce. not the least reason for which is that he should do it now. I still can’t believe that he married her…arse”

    I agree. Of course it would have been nice if his friends, family, and church all weren’t in cahoots to shame him into marrying her as a form of acceptance therapy – which is probably what happened. He should ditch her now while the alimony has time limits and there are no children to be enslaved over. Personally his thoughts on this are not likely to change and this will be a splinter in his mind basically forever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course it would have been nice if his friends, family, and church all weren’t in cahoots to shame him into marrying her as a form of acceptance therapy – which is probably what happened.

      I’m sorry, did you take a wrong turn and think this was Dalrock’s? Or Rollo’s? I’m warming up my delete finger now.

  • Sasha

    I am having fun reading these comments and am a first time commenter…
    So, on the opposite end of the spectrum…, I just got out of an 8 year relationship – engagement was ended, etc. I am 31 and my number is 2. Since there are such strong opinions on high numbers, what is the opinion on low numbers?

  • Ted D

    Ashley – “and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself”

    Yep. MY woman. That is precisely what my wife is, and I made sure to be clear about it before we married.

    So, since I’m basically “buying” her, I want the best deal I can get. Everyone knows a used car comes with some miles on the odometer, but most people wouldn’t buy a used car that had been in a big wreck. Carfax is in business because people don’t want to be tricked into buying a lemon.

    Basically, when a guy is marrying a woman, he is “buying” her and therefore is concerned if she’s been in any major accidents in her past. He would probably also like to know if she was previously “owned” by a family and driven carefully, or used as a taxi and driven hard. As much as you may not like it, this is pretty much exactly what men are vetting for when they dig into past sexual history. I’m not looking to buy a used car that was previously used as a pace car at the race track. I’m thinking more like a well treated car that has all the bug worked out already is more appropriate.

    You may not like it, but from my POV this is how it often goes down. I had to look at my wife’s past and decide if the mileage was too much for the asking price. Every man probably has a different threshold for walking away from a deal, but every man should have the chance to make an honest assessment before he says “I Do”.

  • Tasmin

    @M3
    Spot on. That link sums it up fairly well. But for every one of those rational, straightforward takes there are dozens of “answers” to the question of “her past” out there that include a litany of rationalizations that men are supposed to accept on their way to manning up and/or proving their worth as a mate via their ability to be confident and secure in themselves enough to digest any manner of “her past” behaviors/decisions. I jokingly posted some of those rationalizations on the courtship thread, from the perspective of a woman fretting over a man’s N and they seemed wildly unrealistic, yet when flipped, all too common.

    In so much of this type of discussion, the Past is something to be referenced selectively. The cherry-picking of decisions that matter and what they mean now, i.e. N is irrelevant, but other decisions – accomplishments go to (positive) character, is being manipulated to the point where it is no surprise that many men are now going in with the baseline assumption that she has a high N. I think a fair amount of women similarly hold the view that “all he wants is sex” or “men are afraid of commitment”.

    To your point on the PoF mid 30′s woman. Her Masters and her 6 month round the world holiday are high-value but her 20 or 30 almost relationships are irrelevant. The message in terms of what men really value for the long-term continues to be disrupted and devalued and it is hurting women. She can’t unwind her N, but she can still benefit greatly from aligning her approach and expectations with reality.

    @Escoffier #21
    Agree. The whole argument re: male insecurity is just one more way in which the prevailing culture moves the discussion away from reality. Maybe it is biology, cuckold fear, or maybe it is insecurity or some other male fantasy of how we might attribute value to something coveted, rare, special. There is the debate about why and then there is the discussion about what IS.

    I don’t care WHY women prefer tall men who display social dominance or prefer extroverted or aggressive men with a balanced sense of indifference. I just know (care) that they DO. My job as a man, if I care to participate, to compete for what I want, is to consider that reality when making my decisions and focusing on my behaviors that are most likely to be successful in that regard.

    It always strikes me that everyone is always so quick to point out what simple creatures men are, yet when men simply state or react or chose something that works against how women want them to be, their assumption is that it is a flaw, a weakness, or at best some complex biological leftover that we need to evolve beyond.

    The parsimony of the discussion is lost on them. We can’t just discuss that enough men value N to make it real, to make it matter, it has to be some confluence of evo-bio-cultural-personality. And those things just can’t “be”; the WHAT IS needs to be deconstructed to WHAT SHOULD BE in order to reinforce the prevailing cultural perspective.

    I’m not saying that happens here at HUS, but certainly “out there”, these discussions almost always end up returning to the male insecurity narrative with the men wisely shutting up while the women alternate between constructing increasingly elaborate rationalizations and shaming the weak, judgmental men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      It always strikes me that everyone is always so quick to point out what simple creatures men are, yet when men simply state or react or chose something that works against how women want them to be, their assumption is that it is a flaw, a weakness, or at best some complex biological leftover that we need to evolve beyond.

      I don’t think this was aimed at me, but for the record I find the male aversion to prior female sexual experience completely understandable and justified. I hope this post did not come across as my suggesting that men need to evolve away from this feeling.

      In general, my stance on evolution is that we are today as close to perfect as we’ve ever been, that there are good reasons for our instincts, and that we should respect them.

  • Remo

    One other point… “I feel badly and think that he could’ve had any girl in the world – an innocent girl – but instead he’s stuck with me. Damaged goods.”

    Her high number of former f–k buddies is a constant reminder of his low value. If he could have gotten a virgin as good as you (or found a virgin AT ALL these days) he would have done so. Instead he settled for her likely because that was all he thought he could get = ie. he is not worth being her or anyone’s first and with his “wife” he doesn’t even place or show. A tough burden to carry for the rest of your life – ouch!

    Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is quite low). Then in the mysterious world of male meany poo psychology it wouldn’t matter as much. Flights to bangkok are cheaper in the summer off season and I hear the temples are pretty to look at.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      If he could have gotten a virgin as good as you (or found a virgin AT ALL these days) he would have done so.

      This is simply not true. Outside very religious groups, virginity is not valued in women. And within those religious groups, many “virgins” have used the butthole loophole.

      Virginity only will be appreciated when there is no premarital sex, and when marriage occurs about 10 years earlier than it does today.

  • taterearl

    If men shouldn’t be insecure about her number…

    Women shouldn’t be insecure about his looks.
    His earning potential.
    His personality.
    His attitude.

    N is your value women…you know this deep down but you have to rationalize it. Shame and rationalization is never going to change it.

  • Just1Z

    @Cooper
    the shaming language attacks have been codified:
    ‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
    http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/

    Quite amusing & enlightening. Other websites give guides as well, but this one looks un-ranty. didn’t check the comments, so sensitive types may wish to skip those.

    Tragically (for feminists) even the majority of blue-pill men wise up when they see the shaming language tactics laid out bare – now codified, these tactics have waning efficacy in the real world. As Ashley can attest…

    As I once pointed out elsewhere, the biggest, most urgent and growing, issue for feminists is how to shame men that don’t care what they think

    tumbleweeds? *sigh* well, I laughed anyway… that will have to do. :)

  • taterearl

    “Funny how all of the most (self-described) “secure” guys married sluts and we “insecure” guys didn’t. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.”

    Yeah secure guys get divorced and/or cuckolded. Good for them for having the mental fortitude to take such abuse in their one and only life.

  • Ybiun9

    Of course the “secure” guys married the high-partner count women. They have security = money, status.

    Insecure men (low-earning men, low-status men) don’t have the security. A lower-class man marrying a slut is a disaster. He cannot provide for her expensive tastes, her penchant for variety of choices (meaning consumerism = equals different products = different partners).

    Sluts thrive and are abundant in expensive locales of big cities, where there is money, power, status and liberalism.

    They don’t thrive in working class areas or lower middle class areas (whether rural, suburban or big city). In poor areas, they just end up as single mothers or old divorcees.

    That’s consistently what liberals don’t get. Only super-rich men are secure enough for them.

    And besides seeing security vs. insecurity is rational.

  • Cooper

    @Remo
    “Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is low)”

    This is what we know about their numbers. When she initially lied, she said it was 10 lower than it actually was. And when she admitted to the full number it was twice, what he considered, an acceptable amount.

    Along with:
    “His number is slightly higher than mine, but he is also a decade older than me.”

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    This was long, long ago; australopithecine days really. This was immediately post-Woodstock, pre-Watergate stuff and the new sexual libertarianism was still pretty fresh and pretty heady.

    There were two girls in our area who didn’t go off to college; Lisa was a blonde hippie goddess – think Sienna Miller but with Kat Denning’s chest and Nicki Minaj’s you-know-what. Laura was her red-headed, down-for-anything sidekick who looked a little more like Howdy Doody than was really comfortable, but she had a cute, trim figure and was deliriously happy with Lisa’s leftovers.

    In the five years we knew them, they tore through enough musicians, cowboys, “writers”, promoters, wannabes, drug dealers and countercultural entrepreneurs to make a friend of mine comment “This ain’t gonna end well.”

    Lisa ended up marrying a kind of dorky, big-eared guy, surprising everybody. He turned out to have an enormous amount of ambition and ended up a state senator. They’re still married, have three kids, and still send us a Christmas card. Lisa still looks great, but the funny thing is that she and her husband look like SMP peers now.

    After Lisa married, Laura wasn’t able to exit the carousel with the same grace. She fell hard for a minor league ball player and when he dumped her, she committed suicide on his doorstep.

    Point being, it’s possible for the really stellar looking girls to get away with it. Opie knew all about Lisa’s past. I think taming a counter-cultural princess allowed him to appeal to voters most Republican candidates wouldn’t be able to reach. Also, you never really got the vibe from Lisa that she was into sex. There was always a mercenary aroma about her.

    It was different with poor Laura. She put her heart and soul into it. You can only wonder how she would have turned out if she had picked her friends better.

  • Deli

    //I am 31 and my number is 2. Since there are such strong opinions on high numbers, what is the opinion on low numbers?

    Banging other men does to your “wife value” the same thing that banging your car does to its resale value.
    When you sell your car, you don’t get bonus points for NOT ramming it into a tree 3 years ago.

    Unfortunately banging (in both cases) is a negative modifier and lack of it can only do you good in terms of comparative value (when compared to other … cars), but it does not increase objective (absolute) value.

  • Just1Z

    “Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is low)”

    the problem isn’t that her number is higher than his, the problem is that her number is too high for his standards.

    your suggestion means that you do not understand that this isn’t afairness issue, it is about what most men find acceptable in a partner. Do we get the ‘double standards’ BS argument now?

    women should feel free to act as they wish, but there will be consequences in the MMP for most women.

    and the issue about alphas not minding about high N? Oreally? alphas have even less reason to settle for high-n, they have more options.

    I am sure that there are men that don’t care, and so I wish high-N women “Good Hunting”. You are not going to shame men out of what used to be called ‘standards’ when you demand that they sign up for commitment..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      and the issue about alphas not minding about high N? Oreally? alphas have even less reason to settle for high-n, they have more options.

      High N guys almost always wind up with high N women. For one thing, those are the only women they’ve spent time with for most of their adult lives. For another, for a lot of those guys, 20 is rounding error.

  • http://eoinmacaodh.wordpress.com Eoin MacAodh

    The story can be read three ways, depending on the audience.

    First way is the male perspective. I think that one’s clear by now.

    The second is the way I think Susan intended, as a warning to young girls with low N. They see that the past and the lie both screwed things up, and might seek to avoid it by either keeping their N low, by getting their N high and lying about it more effectively, or by getting their N high and being honest – letting the chips fall where they may.

    The third way, and the way that I think the guys are seeing and Susan is missing (forgive me if this has been pointed out, I only skimmed the comments), is the way women with an already-high N will see it. Namely, that lying and coming clean later is an acceptable escape strategy. It reinforces to them that most guys, particularly quality guys, will write them off as bad investments, and only by lying can they succeed. It’s not like a high-N girl can undo the past, which is the entire reason for all the angst, so she either lies back and accepts her fate, or lies to the guy and takes control. Naturally, the more women lie, the more men will suspect that honest women are liars as well, so this strategy pollutes the well for everyone.

    (My writing style involves way too many metaphors and similes)

    For what it’s worth, I think most of us guys overestimate our ability to spot a slag. Anyone can see the easy cases, but there are far more marginal cases of women who look and act mostly normal – and, for the record, great for them if they are normal; the problem is that too many women are good at acting normal only to become cold fish or adulteresses later on. On the other hand, a lot of guys who don’t overestimate our ability to spot a slag just assume that any woman we meet is one (I freely admit that’s what I do).

    So the problem is that men 9especially high value men), by our nature, don’t usually like high-N, but high-N women want these men and are competing with low-N women. (Note that, just as hypergamy is simply a fact and neither good nor evil, the same is true of this male preference). So the low-N women suffer when high-N women lie. The only solution, short of changing human nature (and if we’re doing that, why not change hypergamy as well?), is an alternative strategy for high-N women to quickly and reliably find satisfaction, and for the men to be satisfied with those women, without the need for dishonesty.

    I don’t think such a thing exists.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Eoin

      Good analysis, thanks.

      The second is the way I think Susan intended, as a warning to young girls with low N. They see that the past and the lie both screwed things up, and might seek to avoid it by either keeping their N low, by getting their N high and lying about it more effectively, or by getting their N high and being honest – letting the chips fall where they may.

      I think the OP by Nancy makes it very, very clear that lying about one’s past is very difficult to pull off. She couldn’t live with the lie. And she did confess before she got married. I believe I make it clear that lying is not a viable strategy, and I lay out the only two choices women have. Have sex and take the consequences, or withhold sex.

      Personally, I do not have a problem with women running up high numbers and letting the chips fall where they may. Nor do I have a problem with a woman (or man) refusing to answer that question.

      It reinforces to them that most guys, particularly quality guys, will write them off as bad investments, and only by lying can they succeed

      I don’t see how any woman could read the post and come to this conclusion. This woman is tortured by her past, she knows it is seriously threatening her marriage with someone she is crazy about. Her story is a very clear example of how lying does not succeed. One eventually has to pay up.

      So the problem is that men 9especially high value men), by our nature, don’t usually like high-N, but high-N women want these men and are competing with low-N women. (Note that, just as hypergamy is simply a fact and neither good nor evil, the same is true of this male preference). So the low-N women suffer when high-N women lie.

      I agree with you that many men will remain in the dark. The lists of slut tells I have seen are laughable, to be honest. Take off a woman’s makeup, skanky outfit and stiletto heels, and you’ll find that her “thousand cock stare” is gone too. Based on the reports of men and women here, I’d say the most likely eventuality is that the cat is let out of the bag when someone from the person’s past makes a wisecrack. In this era of social media, texting, and the usual likelihood of reunions and running into people from one’s past, getting caught out is fairly likely. Unfortunately, it’s too late much of the time – the couple is already married.

      Obviously, my own sympathies lie with the low N women. The solution, IMO, is for high N men and women to pair off, and to leave the more restricted types alone. I believe this happens much of the time anyway – in fact, it sounds like the husband in this story has a decent number of notches on his own bedpost. Even if we accept the sexual double standard, I personally feel less sympathy as a man’s N climbs.

  • realmatt

    Eh…just go watch “Les Miserables” and look at what happened to Fantine.

  • Jonny

    I feel bad for both of them. She lied repeatedly and still ended up married. He asked for a number, but didn’t press for honesty enough until it was too late, and still married her.

    Wait. It is never too late to breakup before you get married. He should still have broken up. His principles didn’t stand up. He compromised, which rots his soul.

    She was a liar. She should have broken up with him, but she was selfish.

    My feeling is they deserve each other. Live with it. Stop fighting over a done deal. Stay married; however, don’t have kids if there is still a speck of doubt. Otherwise, get divorced.

  • Remo

    “your suggestion means that you do not understand that this isn’t afairness issue, it is about what most men find acceptable in a partner. Do we get the ‘double standards’ BS argument now?”

    I understand it perfectly well – I also know that I am dealing, likely, with a beta and not an alpha. Your other statement about alphas not tolerating sluttiness is true as they have high value and can demand higher value women – women absolutely lose value based on their number – that’s how it is. Double standard? yep. was the argument you were waiting for? Nature doesn’t care to justify itself on this – it just is.

    As to his betaness an alpha wouldn’t have married a girl that doesn’t meet his standards regardless of who was telling him to do it. So he’s a beta and insecure and pissed off that this broad, HIS broad, is a slut showing his low value. Bang a bunch of hot girls and his perceived value *may* go up. Other than this the other avenue is to divorce so he doesn’t have to shoulder the burden of her sluttiness. No good answers for this one other than her keeping her legs together which didn’t happen.

  • Anne

    Won’t most women with a high N just take this as a lesson that if you start out by lying, you should continue to lie? Nancy is in trouble because she came clean, after all. Most men don’t have a vague clue how high a woman’s number is, no matter how much they go on about “slut tells”. And unless many of these are men are in her social circle, there is no way of finding out. Maybe they are scattered across the planet, maybe most of them are deleted from Facebook (if they were ever there). These things are lied about and covered up, and if there were ever any red flags, he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before, and if his “light is on” (i.e. he’s looking for a wife), it’s my impression that anything goes.
    I’m not sure how alarming this letter is. Women either have the urge to sleep around, and will, or don’t, and won’t. A 26 year old friend of mine with a 50+ N recently got engaged to a handsome, 6″, rich, 30 year old guy. My guess is that they haven’t discussed sexual history and won’t either, which seems to be the norm these days. Maybe this is my European background speaking, but over here, the ‘slut shaming’ seems like a bit of a lost cause.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My guess is that they haven’t discussed sexual history and won’t either, which seems to be the norm these days. Maybe this is my European background speaking, but over here, the ‘slut shaming’ seems like a bit of a lost cause.

      Interesting. I think the discussion of sexual history is still very common in the U.S. In fact, I’d say it’s standard practice. For the record, this is new within the last generation. No one asked for that information in the 80s or before.

  • Cooper

    “These things are lied about and covered up, and if there were ever any red flags, he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before, and if his “light is on” (i.e. he’s looking for a wife), it’s my impression that anything goes.”

    If he’s “looking for a wife”, anything goes?

    *skriek*

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    This topic is fun.

    I’ll be over here if anyone wants me ;)

  • Anne

    @Cooper
    Yeah that sounds weird, but the taxi theory is pretty spot on. Men’s requirements for a wife are often very affected by the timing. Combined with her hotness of course.

  • Just1Z

    “Your other statement about alphas not tolerating sluttiness is true as they have high value and can demand higher value women – women absolutely lose value based on their number – that’s how it is”
    cool

  • Oz

    “Millennial women, be aware. Feminism did not rid society of the sexual double standard. Men remain loath to commit to women with considerable previous sexual experience.”

    By the same token women remain loathe to commit to men with a considerable previous sexual past.

    “Why? Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child, which is obviously not in his best interest. He sees your past as a valid predictor of your future behavior. ”

    The ball bounces both ways. We also see his past as a valid predictor of future behavior. What to speak of high risk of STDs, there is also the risk that any child he may father with another woman will take considerable resources away from OUR child.

    The other thing you should be aware of is that the truth will out. Hiding your past for a lifetime is extremely difficult logistically, but it is also very burdensome psychologically to keep that secret.

    From Nancy:

    “I’m so incredibly sad. I’m living a life full of regret. I am now married to the most wonderful man – he is every woman’s dream:

    First impressions: handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male, excellent communicator.”

    So far so good.

    “Lasting impressions: loving, caring, kind, the provider, amazing lover.”

    Sounds awesome.

    “Women throw themselves at him.

    Whoa! Red flag.

    “And he chose to be with me.”

    For now, anyway.

    It is best advised for people of equal rank, previous sexual experience and desirability to marry. That way one will not be overly worried about the other because both are in the same both and likely to behave similarly going forward.

    If men don’t “throw themselves at you” as a woman, then its best not to involve yourself with a man whom women throw themselves at.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Oz

      The ball bounces both ways. We also see his past as a valid predictor of future behavior. What to speak of high risk of STDs, there is also the risk that any child he may father with another woman will take considerable resources away from OUR child.

      Hi Plain Jane. Valid point.

      It is best advised for people of equal rank, previous sexual experience and desirability to marry. That way one will not be overly worried about the other because both are in the same both and likely to behave similarly going forward.

      If men don’t “throw themselves at you” as a woman, then its best not to involve yourself with a man whom women throw themselves at.

      +1

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    They have to “prove” their lack of sexual experience. How does one do that?

    *raise hand slowly*

    By actually not having much sexual experience.

    There’s a learning curve when dating someone new, and those who have a lot of sexual experience would be hard pressed to successfully “fake” the mannerisms of those with less experience. It’s similar to how late bloomers to dating tend to be more awkward/unsure of the script to follow when romantically interested in someone. There will be awkward moments and tells that you’re learning as you go. And depending on how low the N is, there may be physical tells as well.

    In my case, my N is 2. My bf knew I was not lying because when we first attempted PIV he didn’t fit.. Kind of hard to fake that! It took awhile to “adjust” and today we’re all good :) (I thanked him for making trips to the obgyn less painful, lol). However, I would imagine once your N surpasses 3 there are far less tells (assuming that number would include at least 2 LTRs).

  • Just1Z

    a) Given advances in social media and face recognition tech, leaving a slutty past behind is going to be harder and harder. You think that that viral video of the woman frotting a tree isn’t going to be with her for life?

    b) You clearly can’t trust a woman to tell the truth then? glad that it’s out in the open.

  • Just1Z

    “A 26 year old friend of mine with a 50+ N recently got engaged to a handsome, 6″, rich, 30 year old guy.”

    ahhh, another classic.

    “Your statement about how the majority of men feel must be wrong because I have one counter argument.”

    Kind of like,
    “most people are right handed”
    “oh no, you’re wrong because I have a friend who is left handed”
    *face-palm*

    it’s a logic thang…

  • Cooper

    @Anne
    “Women either have the urge to sleep around, and will [and lie about it], or don’t, and won’t.”

    FTFY. It’s clear which side you lie on. Hehe.

    But, obviously you must be hot enough …

  • MNL

    @Ashley who says the true problem in the story is…

    a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.

    One has to stop and ask if the man’s discomfort here is unique, if he’s among only a minority of men who would feel this way given the same circumstances. If so, then it’s indeed very much his own insecurity. But if a majority of guys would feel this same way when put in this same spot–which even the woman in the story somewhat reveals by virtue of her even feeling a need to hide her number–then problem is very likely the woman’s. The problem would then be the woman’s partner count and not the man’s “insecurity.” …And in this story here, the second explanation is the far, far more likely one.

    Put differently, the man’s feeling here is not an irrational insecurity; it’s his male alarm bell–something which has evolved over thousands or even millions of years–trying to warn him of a very real risk. Specifically, her promiscuity is a marker of a potential cuckold or risk of her later leaving him.

  • Just1Z

    “he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before”

    you may have a point there, maybe, so, do you feel lucky punk? The stats still say that her high-N makes her a poor long term prospect, so the marriage issue is far from moot.

    My european background says that you’re, generally speaking, wrong that men here wish to marry up the town bike any more than in the States. Especially if his social circle will subsequently find out, or even worse, his family. And the chances of the cat getting out of the bag are only going to go up as technology improves. YMMV, best of luck

  • Oz

    “a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.”

    That wasn’t the case here though. He didn’t expect her to be a virgin. Nanc said he had a general number, I’ll assume not more than say, 5, that he found “acceptable”.

    “She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.”

    How so? They weren’t married yet when she first lied. If he had broken up with her at that point it would be just another boyfriend/girlfriend relationship coming to an end which happens everyday without incident. Its as common as the air we breathe.

  • Remo

    “By the same token women remain loathe to commit to men with a considerable previous sexual past.”

    Completely incorrect. In fact any man that can get lots of women will find many more quite eager to commit to him because of his real world proven greater value. Men and women are different and value different things. Life does not mirror a high school diversity pamphlet.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Completely incorrect. In fact any man that can get lots of women will find many more quite eager to commit to him because of his real world proven greater value.

      No, women are increasingly judging promiscuous men, there’s a lot of evidence to that effect. However, the N has to be pretty high in most cases. (25+, I’d say.)

      Most of the young women I know and hear from want to make sure they don’t wind up with a reformed player, and I’ve been asked several times about “slut tells” for guys.

      If I had to suggest one thing it would be to avoid cocky men. Cocky men are almost always manwhores, or trying to be.

  • Anne

    @Just1Z
    That was just one example. Every promiscuous woman I know have no problem getting an LTR. Maybe my perception is different because I am not American. Or maybe it is different because I am a woman, and have more inside information on the ACTUAL numbers of women in LTRs.

    @Cooper
    “It is clear which side you are on”.
    Is it? I am only 22 and my number is lower than every woman I know, and my friends aren’t all promiscuous. Again, men’s ability to “read” a woman’s number appears to be plain guessing.

  • Remo

    Anne – so your argument is that men don’t mind that women have high body counts because all the women you know are sluts and have had LTR’s?

    I may not like trout but if that is all there is in the water where I am fishing I will still eat it rather than starve.

  • Zach

    @Escoffier, M3

    I’ve always been surprised by other mens’ focus on the absolute N, not the relative number. By relative I mean “what % of guys who’ve propositioned her/hit on her/dated her has she slept with”? Because if the root of the whole problem with a high N is how selective the girl is (with high selectivity indicating that you are a special choice), doesn’t it make more sense to focus on the relative N? I know I think that way. I’d have issues with a mildly attractive girl having an N of say, 15 at age 25, because I know that she doesn’t get hit on an enormous amount and so obviously wasn’t all that selective. However, a very hot girl with N of 15 at that age? I probably wouldn’t even blink. A very hot girl in a big city gets hit a dozen of times a day or more. So even if she has an N of 15, you may be in the lucky .1% who gets there. With a moderately attractive girl, you may be one of 10% of the guys. I know where I’d rather be, and it has nothing to do with absolute N.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So even if she has an N of 15, you may be in the lucky .1% who gets there. With a moderately attractive girl, you may be one of 10% of the guys. I know where I’d rather be, and it has nothing to do with absolute N.

      Zach’s attitude is not unusual among men who are themselves very sexually successful. The higher the male N, the more lenient his views on female N, at least among Millennials.

  • Ted D

    Anne – Well if we were all honest with each other, men wouldn’t have to guess, would they?

    If guy wants to know a woman’s N, she has NO justification for lying other than to protect her own ass. It is denying the man his agency to decide for himself if SHE is fit for his commitment based on her N. He has every right in the world to use N, her waist size, her IQ, or anything he feels is important for DQing her as wife potential. As much as I tried to give Nancy a pep talk on the original thread, she is responsible for this mess. Not because she slept around (although that is the issue at the core) but that she LIED to get him to commit.

    Honestly if I was him, I would already be drawing up the divorce paperwork. Of course, I also would have walked away if/when she told me her real N the first time I asked as well. Or, put another way, *I* would not be the right guy for Nancy no matter how much she thought I would be, and her lying to ME to get my commitment is theft and fraud.

    I wish her the best, and hope that they can work things out. But, if it was me in her husbands shoes, there would be nothing left to work on at this point.

  • J

    I must obviously raise the obvious feminist screed that would be raised after reading this heartening post.

    I guess you can dismiss the issue by saying that any reference to this being at least in part the guy’s emotional issue as “feminist,” but the minute I read, “He asked my number,” I knew that Nancy had chosen the wrong guy for her. Obviously, she should not have lied to him and sucked him in, but, in this SMP adult women, much less adult women with kids, for whom n=1 are unusual. And I suspect he knew, at some level, that her n =/= 1 because he kept asking her about it.

    I marvel at how often this issue comes up in various blogs. I personally have never been asked that question by any guy I’ve been in a relationship with, my husband included. The general assumption on both my part and the part of the men has been that everyone has a past to some degree or another. If men are going to pursue pre-marital sexual relationships they are going to “sully the pond” and make it impossible for many other men to find low number women. If a man has had previous partners, he has little to complain about in my book.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    The practical ramifications of all of this…?

    1) If you are a woman with higher than average N, lie. Assume that men will freak out about it.

    2) If you are a man, assume that the woman is lying about her N. Assume that she assumes that you would freak out about the true number.

    I’m in the minority here because I don’t really care about a woman’s N too much unless it crosses an arbitrary threshold that I find to be highly correlated with a lot of unhealthy psychological issues. However, I am very sensitive about certain particulars—if she casually slept with someone I know, for example, I would really struggle with any kind of LTR investment, even if her overall N was low. I also would want the initial option to have sex with her on the same “most favored penis” trade terms that any other man has received, and she should probably expect me to want to experience all of the wildest antics that she got up to with past BFs + some flourishes to appease my ego.

    Man, it sounds like women are going to have a tougher and tougher time dealing with guys in the SMP: the sexually restricted men who are high-quality LTR choices have been conditioned to be paranoid about hook-up culture and price discrimination, and thus are quite intolerant and judgmental where female N is concerned. The guys who are permissive and tolerant are players and they will encourage high female N because it benefits them. It’s like a girl has a choice between Taliban Todd and Playboy Bob.

  • Just1Z

    @Anne
    I’m English.

    How happy the sluts that you hang around with must be that their partners haven’t taken the red-pill yet. As long as the guyz don’t marry the girlz then, no problem. I wish them luck (the guys).

    But, to be fair, I don’t think men should marry anyway. There is little, if anything, in it for them. the downsides can be catastrophic, so best avoided.

  • Zach

    PS to the above

    This was definitely true of my ex. She wasn’t a slut, but she wasn’t a virgin either. I met some of the other guys she’d hooked up with (in passing), and all of them were attractive, popular guys. I would’ve been pretty pissed had I found out she slept with trolls before me, but I witnessed first hand the bunch of beta orbiters she had around her who she never even flirted with. She got cat-called on the street a few times I was with her, and other guys hit on her when I’d be away at the bar. I feel much more special to be a) in the company of other attractive men and b) be the one guy out of dozens who she does respond to than be the guy who get laid because I was the first one to hit on her that night.

  • Anne

    @Remo
    I am not saying that men don’t mind, I am saying that they often don’t have a clue. And if they are infatuated enough (like Nancy’s man), they seem willing to overlook red flags in they do find one, in the same way women overlook red flags when they really want to date a hot guy.

    Seems like some assume I am defending sluts. I am not. After all, in an ideal situation, sex and commitment would go hand in hand. But a lot of women offer ONS, and the men we’d love to date are taking the offer. I am just stating how it is, from my experience. I get a strong impression that men online are not being entirely truthful. There is a lot of “I’ll find out”, but I’ve never witnessed it. Social media will catch out the extremes, those who do not care about their reputation whatsoever, but they are in a minority, even among the promiscuous ones.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But a lot of women offer ONS, and the men we’d love to date are taking the offer.

      I shared a story earlier this week about a couple having “the talk” before making their relationship official. I know them both, they are both very attractive. He asked her number, and she was happy to tell him (it’s very low). He told her that he was really pleased to hear it, that he really respected her for it, but that he would have been OK with a considerably higher number (he did not specify his limit). He then told her his number, which is 21. She was very distressed, and the resulting dynamic has been interesting. She is taking some time to think about it, and he is quite penitent. He is assuring her that his past behavior is not any indication of his future behavior. He is clearly worried that she will disqualify him. I don’t think she will in the end, and she has admitted surprise at feeling so strongly. She knows lots of guys have higher N than that. She said she just can’t wrap her head around the idea of the guy she loves and “20 vaginas.”

  • Iggles

    @ Anne:

    That was just one example. Every promiscuous woman I know have no problem getting an LTR. Maybe my perception is different because I am not American. Or maybe it is different because I am a woman, and have more inside information on the ACTUAL numbers of women in LTRs.

    Boom! :lol:

    FWIW, I hear you. People are just starting to get married in my social group and I know 2 brides who are N > 30. I also know high N women who have no trouble finding boyfriends while my other low N friends are having a tough time meeting guys.

    Life ain’t fair. There is no weighed scale looming to even things out. If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught. Those women are living their lives, dating and mating with little thought to this topic. It’s not the path I would take, but I can’t deny their finding their way. I hope to attain my own happy ending in a way that holds integrity in adherence to my personal values (IOW, I’ll make my own way as a restricted woman as their journey has no bearing on mine!).

  • Maggie

    “It did work because they got married.”

    Nancy is married to a man she says does not respect her. That sounds like a pretty miserable marriage.

    Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.

  • Remo

    Anne – the assumption you are making is that he was “infatuated enough” which I believe is in error. Assuming he spoke about this to others (questionable) there is not one mainstream source out there that wouldn’t hesitate to shame him over it acting like it was his fault. My guess (based on experience with others) is that he was actively told that she was a “nice girl” (demonstrably false) and that he “should” marry her and that he would feel better about it in time. I can only speak from the experiences of friends here but I have never heard of this getting better. He in all likelihood wasn’t infatuated he was manipulated, left with the impression that because this shouldn’t bother him that his feelings would magically change with time, etc. That is the council the churches in the U.S. actively provide through the patented “Jesus forgave me so you should too” get out of jail free card. I am assuming alot of course but if his friends/family etc. actively told him to avoid this slut (which would have been the advice given in the past) would he be in this mess? Maybe not.

  • JP

    “And if they are infatuated enough (like Nancy’s man), they seem willing to overlook red flags in they do find one, in the same way women overlook red flags when they really want to date a hot guy.”

    I think that the problem comes when the infatuation wears off later on in the marriage and his actual opinions are no longer overridden by the infatuation.

  • Just1Z

    http://socialpathology.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/more-promiscuity-data.html

    Good stuff. Here’s a quote

    Only four nationally representative studies have examined whether premarital sexual experiences are linked to divorce (Heaton, 2002; Kahn & London, 1991; Laumann et al., 1994; Teachman, 2003). Nevertheless, the core finding—the association between premarital sex and increased risks of divorce—is robust[Ed]. Teachman (2003) found that women who had sex only with their future husbands did not have higher risks of marital dissolution, which suggests that the premarital-sex effect on divorce is related primarily to having sex with multiple partners

    IIRC (from elsewhere, maybe) the same effect exists for men, but it is less pronounced. high-n is a more significant marital risk in women than in men. (Social*) Science says that the ‘double-standard’ is justified by reality, regardless of what women think is fair.

    *yeah, I know. but if the results don’t favour women then the underlying data must be fairly impervious to being twisted to fit the favoured narrative. As S.P. says

    Now Paik cautiously advocates that this is only a tentative conclusion and that more work needs to be done. I personally think that Paik wasn’t too happy with the findings either. Throughout the work there appears to be a grudging acknowledgment of the effect of multiple sexual partners on divorce risk. Most sociology professors are liberal but he is to be commended on letting the chips fall where they may.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1Z

      The Teachman study has some issues – for starters, it only looked at cohabiting couples. It’s also never been replicated. That doesn’t mean it isn’t valid, but it’s the one and only study the ‘sphere continues to quote on this issue.

      IIRC (from elsewhere, maybe) the same effect exists for men, but it is less pronounced. high-n is a more significant marital risk in women than in men.

      Yes, I’ve written about that study too. It’s out of BYU – again, never replicated. In that one, it measured the degree of marital sexual satisfaction, and found that for men, satisfaction went down a full 5% for ever single premarital partner. IIRC a man with an N of 10 had virtually no chance of being highly satisfied in marriage. The effect for women was much weaker.

  • Oz

    “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”

    I’m glad somebody said this. It was his choice and he needs to stop feeling sorry for himself. Also, the flippancy with which some commentors here are so ready to throw in the towel on a legal marriage, which may involve children, is astounding. Even if she or her husband were to have cheated, if they have children they should do everything possible, AND THEN SOME, to stay together for their sake.

  • Ion

    Iggles

    “*raise hand slowly*

    By actually not having much sexual experience.”

    The problem is that sexual experience has nothing to do with # of partners in many cases. A girl who’s had 30 partners may have had sex 70 times, while a girl who’s had 1 boyfriend since high school could have had sex 3x a week for 10 years. If you’ve had 2 long term partners, you’ve had more sex than someone who is unrestricted who has had a history of STR and ONS.

    “There’s a learning curve when dating someone new, and those who have a lot of sexual experience would be hard pressed to successfully “fake” the mannerisms of those with less experience. ”

    I agree. Charisma is possibly a slut tell (if there is one). Butttt I’m not sure.

    Often a girl who falls under the halo effect is who shocks men the most, I’ve noticed. Because she’s sweet, bubbly, and contagious. When men stop applying the “slut radar” to women they don’t know, that could help. We’ve all shared the stories of slutty girls who are about a 4-6 in attractiveness, but super “nice”. They ping no one’s slut radar based on appearance but men could ask feminism questions during dates, whether she likes to drink, try and gage if she loves an audience, etc., maybe those are better clues. But that could be my introvert bias. :-P

    Chances are the more effort you have to put into approaching someone, the less likely she is to be a slut (other guys may have had the same hesitation), girls who are totally comfortable with guys are likely to have had more experience with men. But that’s obviously case-by-case. There are attractive women with low N and unattractive women with high N, so I am sure that could apply to the introvert/extraverts too. Perhaps an extravert will weigh in who has a low N.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I agree. Charisma is possibly a slut tell (if there is one). Butttt I’m not sure.

      Extraversion is one of the best predictors of promiscuity, for both sexes.

  • JP

    “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”

    It is easy to make vows when you are infatuated because everything is happy and wonderful and sparkly.

  • Remo

    “Nancy is married to a man she says does not respect her. That sounds like a pretty miserable marriage.’

    Miserable – for him. When the marriage ends she’ll get cash and prizes. Home run from her perspective.

    “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others”.

    Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.

    “He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”

    Translation: he can’t think that way and should spend thousands of dollars working out his thought crimes of being male by going to a professional to hear that he is a bad person. Once appropriately shamed he’ll fall in line and not care about this anymore so she can be happy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Miserable – for him. When the marriage ends she’ll get cash and prizes. Home run from her perspective.

      IDK, she sounds pretty damned miserable. Miserable enough to get on Google search and find my post on lying about one’s past and the damage that does to relationships.

      Please chill on the cash and prizes. Why do you feel it is even appropriate to suggest such a motive on her part? She has given no such indication.

      Also, what stats do you have re divorce settlements on couples with no kids, a year or so after marrying? What kinds of cash and prizes are awarded to women?

  • JP

    ” Also, the flippancy with which some commentors here are so ready to throw in the towel on a legal marriage, which may involve children, is astounding. Even if she or her husband were to have cheated, if they have children they should do everything possible, AND THEN SOME, to stay together for their sake.”

    Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.

    I said that he needed to man up and make a choice as to whether he was going to stay.

    Meaning that if he wanted to divorce, then now is the time to do it.

    And if he wanted to stay, he needs to move on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.

      No it was not.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    You know, as a virgin myself (late 20s actually), I don’t know why topics like these irks me. Maybe because my views on it are pretty unique (or seem to be). Warning: this comment may be all over the place a little bit, maybe because when it comes to my opinion on topics such as this, it’s mixed.

    First of all, I believe that both males and females should wait until marriage to have sex and that promiscuity is wrong. So if the guy has a history himself, who is he to complain about his girlfriend’s number, and if this guy is “alpha” in the same sense as what’s popular in regards to sexual partners, then I wonder how many people HE slept with? Yes, I’m aware of the many reasons why it’s considered ok for guys, it’s just that to me they seem more like excuses, if that makes sense. It just doesn’t make it any less ok than when females do it (I think that’s how that saying goes lol).

    Secondly, I understand that the guy was pissed off that he was lied to. I also would understand his viewpoint more if his issues with promiscuous women stems from their likelihood to stay loyal and a little something called STDs. As for feelings of “ickyness”, I kind of get it. Kind of how many women prefer guys who are taller than them, not shorter (I’m the same way), there’s not really an actual reason for the feeling, or one that makes sense – at least in today’s day and age. To be honest, if I was with a guy and found out that he has been with 20-something-plus sexual partners, I would be bothered by it, although I probably wouldn’t be as upset as the guy in the letter. My hypothetical boyfriend would just have to have some amazing qualities (kind, great personality, sense of humor, a geniuenly good person). Anyway, when it comes to the problem of another man’s kids – if she doesn’t have any, then to me this shouldn’t be an issue, unless she eventually cheats and no protection was involved, which comes back to the issue of loyalty.

    With all that being said, I’m one of those people who believe that a person doesn’t have to be defined by who they used, especially when they’ve made an effort to change for the better (although in this case it looks like Nancy just stopped when she felt like it). While it’s fine for people to be wary of people who used to be promiscuous for reasons such as STDs and infidelity, I don’t think that people who used to be promiscuous should be written across the board as “damaged goods” and not suitable for marriage.

    It’s fine for people to have preferences. It’s fine to be cautious of certain types of people when looking for a mate. I just don’t agree with the idea that they should be universally written off. Or rather, I don’t understand it.

    Yeah, I really think this comment is all over the place :P

  • Oz

    ” Every promiscuous woman I know have no problem getting an LTR. Maybe my perception is different because I am not American. Or maybe it is different because I am a woman, and have more inside information on the ACTUAL numbers of women in LTRs.

    Boom! :lol:

    FWIW, I hear you. People are just starting to get married in my social group and I know 2 brides who are N > 30. I also know high N women who have no trouble finding boyfriends while my other low N friends are having a tough time meeting guys.

    Life ain’t fair. There is no weighed scale looming to even things out. If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught. Those women are living their lives, dating and mating with little thought to this topic. It’s not the path I would take, but I can’t deny their finding their way. ”

    It could be that promiscuous women in general have a more open and pleasant demeanor whereas non-promiscuous women might come off uptight, judgemental, scornful, and generally not as happy.

    I don’t agree with it but I’ve sometimes heard people say, “she needs to get laid” when a particularly tightly wound or angry seeming female comes into the midst. Its even said about depressed women.

  • Just1Z

    @Iggles
    “If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught.”

    I don’t give a tinker’s toss if they get their comeuppance. My only concern is for the guys that chance their marital arm on them. I’d like all men to take the red-pill and see reality. If they are in all cognisance of reality, then they should do as they wish – marry, LTR, STR whatever.

    I have no interest in whether women pay the piper, only that blue pill guys don’t end up paying the bill later.

    Whatever two sane individuals want to get up to in private, bothers me not at all – but honesty all round please.

  • Just1Z

    @Oz
    “I don’t agree with it but I’ve sometimes heard people say, “she needs to get laid” when a particularly tightly wound or angry seeming female comes into the midst. Its even said about depressed women.

    you should find some interesting google results :)

    men ‘inject’ many feel good, bonding chemicals into women during sex (no condoms, obviously). Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women. The men are also relieved, so it’s a win-win (STDs aside)

    Anyway, gcc beckons, so goodnight and ctrl-z

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women.

      Really? Why? Does it matter where the semen ends up? Face, spit out, in her tummy?

      Or is this some sort of jaw exercise to reduce tension?

  • Oz

    Maggie, “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”

    JP, “It is easy to make vows when you are infatuated because everything is happy and wonderful and sparkly.”

    But didn’t he already know she lied to him? Where’s the “sparkly” in that? And yet he still CHOSE to marry her.

    Remo, “Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.”

    She did not dishonor him after marriage. He knew BEFORE they married that she had lied. And he still CHOSE to marry her.

    JP, “Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”

    No, it was not. Unless I’m wrong that he knew BEFORE he married her that she had lied about her number. Correct me if I’m wrong.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Remo,
    “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others”.

    Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.

    See, I don’t get this. Her past has nothing to do with him. He wasn’t even in the picture then. How can you dishonor someone by something you did in your past when you didn’t even know the person existed? If he doesn’t trust her to stay faithful, then I can understand that.

    What annoys me is this whole “innocent” vs “dirty” comparison. There is no person on this planet who is “innocent”. Everyone has sinned in one way or another.

  • Remo

    “Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”

    Yes and it is interesting that this concept would be shocking. In the old testament of the bible finding out your wife was not a virgin on your wedding night did not mean a visit to the Oprah show for a little cry in and some counseling, it was a deal breaker and the vows taken were declared null and void along with very severe punishments for the woman. I realize we are beyond morality now and all that old value stuff was just misogyny and men should work just as hard keeping the lights on for sluts as they do for undamaged women but what happens when the dishonesty and shaming no longer are enough? Society is looking pretty good with a bright future now is it?

  • Yuhonoiu

    Low number women should get the heck away from big cities, which are mostly liberal and full of liberal men, who marry ambitious career oriented high-N women.

    Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).

    And no, contrary to liberal hysteria, mantras and misconceptions, they are not “hypocrites”. Sheesh.

  • Remo

    Renee – the fact that you do not understand it does not mean it does not or should not exist as a value and as I pointed out before it isn’t like this concept is new as you’ll find it in pretty much every major religion.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Zach 79
    “I’ve always been surprised by other mens’ focus on the absolute N, not the relative number. By relative I mean “what % of guys who’ve propositioned her/hit on her/dated her has she slept with”?”

    Long and short of it.. i have a number in my head that im comfy with, that tells me whether or not a woman has been making good choices, repeated mistakes or is just wanton.

    Her number is just that, a number. I don’t have the time or inclination to audit her about each and every man she’s done, the situation or circumstances that led to, whether he lied or if it ‘just happened’, whether he courted her for months, or it was a 1 night stand fun hop, etc…

    If she crosses threshold of N greater than my value system / my own life experience.. commitment is toast. Full stop.

    Is she a bad person? No (even tho she’s made it harder for chaste women to command time from men to learn about their intentions/honesty). I would keep her for an FWB relationship at most.

    But marriage or cohabit? Look to someone else who wont care about your N like i do. Probably someone with a high N as well.

  • J

    This woman got lucky that she held the lie out long enough

    Not really. She’s in for the same horrid life as Mrs. deti, locked into a relationship that promises to be forever miserable for both of them. If she were smart, she’d cut her losses and move on to a guy who can deal with her past. Who the hell would want to live with the knowledge that this unresolved issue is going to hang over them forever? If I were her, I’d explain to the guy that I can see that the past is an unresolvable issue for him, but that I was wrong in lying and that I was willing to let him off the hook if that’s what he wants. But if he deided to stay, I sure wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life hearing about his issues with things that can’t be changed.

  • Maggie

    @OZ
    “She did not dishonor him after marriage. He knew BEFORE they married that she had lied. And he still CHOSE to marry her. ”

    That is what she said.

    @Remo
    “When the marriage ends she’ll get cash and prizes. Home run from her perspective.”

    You know, there are actually wives who love and cherish their husbands and would be devastated if their husbands divorced them. No, really.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “How can a woman convince a man she is not holding him to different standards than the men in her past?”

    A) The keep it simple stupid approach. Don’t have a past. I know unfair and all but it definitely is the most intuitively obvious.

    B) Have an acceptable past that is well documented.

    C) Perfect your ability to lie.

    Also, I half agree with George. I did not assume woman were sluts but it was always something I mentally prepared for.

  • Remo

    “She did not dishonor him after marriage.”

    True, she dishonored him before marriage which is what he has trouble dealing with. Old concept, hard wired. Welcome to Earth.

  • Tasmin

    @Zach
    I’m with you on the relative and contextual part – to a point. I still believe that if the actual N questions come up, there is probably some other reason(s) for that, which may or may not be a red flag on several levels. But I can understand why it comes down to that sometimes.

    But in your case, knowing the hit rate % is just as unknowable as the rest. We are still relying on our construction of an image, an artificial reality. I think the absolute N part comes in because there is so much interference with how men and women communicate their values re: intimacy and past relationships. E.g. I’ve known women who act sexually aggressive and quite forward who have well below average N’s and women who never use vulgar language or other suggestive behaviors who have spent years cleaning up. There is a problem in our SMP relative to how values are held up and communicated. And part of the issue is that women want the option to entertain certain behaviors while protecting those behaviors from how men may value them. And there are all kinds of counterproductive messages about this, not the least of which is that it is about male insecurity.

    So while you may choose not to focus on absolute N, you still place a high value on her past decisions. The perceived status of her past choices matter to you – or at least make you feel *something*. So it is easy to say something doesn’t matter, as in, her actual N, as long as you can get comfortable with her past being in the acceptable range given your attribution of circumstances and probabilities and consisting of high-value encounters.

    But at the crux you are essentially doing the rationalization work because the fact is that at some level it does still matter. Your point re: absolute N is most applicable in the sense that we can never know everything about the past, but for some men, the context and estimating they have to do to back-into some reasonable assumption about her selectivity and ultimately what value she places(ed) on intimacy is not enough.

    I’m not saying there is a right or wrong approach, but thats the point. You don’t require absolutes, but you do require some combination of variables that allows you to find comfort. Which is really all most men are looking for.

    The important takeaway is that for most men: *IT* matters. The “it” could be absolute N, and it doesn’t matter if those past guys were chumps. For others it is all context: no chumps or no ONS. Still others it is a combination: a few ONS (ok). The point is, *IT* has value.

    If a woman does not believe it should or she herself has not respected it as something of value in the past or she has substantially changed her own view of its value, that is fine. Then she needs to filter for men who hold a similar perspective. It is not that different from the variety of other values that need to come into alignment in a relationship. Be prepared to stand in the truth and if that truth is that you think promiscuity is fine, ok, but don’t rewrite history when you come to find that the thickest part of the MMP does not share your view.

  • LouiseC

    Surely the moral of this story (other than the obvious don’t sleep around and lie about it) is don’t marry a man who doesn’t respect you.

    Don’t even go out with a man who doesn’t respect you. In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.

    If he doesn’t respect you for whatever reason, from your number to the fact you don’t think Superman and Wonder Woman work as a couple, then you should end it.

    Also is discussing your number an American thing? I don’t know anyone who does. I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.

    After all if a promiscuous past was going to be a problem then surely her behaviour would make it obvious?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LouiseC

      Surely the moral of this story (other than the obvious don’t sleep around and lie about it) is don’t marry a man who doesn’t respect you.

      Don’t even go out with a man who doesn’t respect you. In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.

      +1 !!!

      I’m with you. When I read Nancy’s comment, I was surprised that they had gone ahead and gotten married during a period where this was clearly a major issue in the relationship. That strikes me as rather careless on both their parts.

      I would never marry someone who had lost trust and respect for me, even if that response was justified.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, tata

    “Most guys have an intuition about who is a slut. Sluts give away who they are through their attitude.”

    Susan, option B was in gest.
    This is actually it. We just kinda know past a certain point.

    And everything Tata(?) said about being modest is correct.

  • Oz

    “men ‘inject’ many feel good, bonding chemicals into women during sex (no condoms, obviously). Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women. The men are also relieved, so it’s a win-win (STDs aside)”

    I do know that orgasms, with or without condoms (probably moreso with condoms because that puts our minds at ease and we can lay back stressfree and enjoy without fear of pregnancy and some STDs) and also orgasms through cunninlingus, cause all kinds of feel good chemicals to be released in the female brain.

  • Oz

    “True, she dishonored him before marriage which is what he has trouble dealing with. Old concept, hard wired. Welcome to Earth.”

    Please clarify. My understanding is that the lie was told before marriage AND HE KNEW IT, and still went on to marry her. He has to take responsibility here.

  • JP

    “I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.”

    You have to weight people in the scales to find out whether they are found wanting.

  • JP

    “Also is discussing your number an American thing? I don’t know anyone who does. I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.”

    I think it also depends on whether you think that pre-marital sex is profoundly evil.

  • Yuhonoiu

    @Tasmin 110

    E.g. I’ve known women who act sexually aggressive and quite forward who have well below average N’s and women who never use vulgar language or other suggestive behaviors who have spent years cleaning up.

    The problem is that this is an anecdote. It could be an exception to the rule. For example there are couple of high-status married career oriented women who have 3-4 children in big cities. But they are the exception. Most have 1-2 children.

    I encountered this fact a couple of months back. We were talking about birth rates and I said that most liberal career women don’t have more than 2 children. A liberal guy came in and said that in his social circle, having 3-4 children is a marker of status and how in his circle “Three is the new two!”.

    I then showed how the USA has a 40% and rising illegitimacy rate and how most children are being born by either the lower minority classes or the religious, with both increasingly avoiding legal marriage (the lower classes because it’s a bad financial decision and for the religious because marriage has become liberal thanks to the law). So most babies are being born in the USA to:

    - Uneducated
    - Poor -> Working Class -> Lower middle class
    - Black/Hispanic (with a couple of lower class whites thrown in)
    - Somewhat religious
    - Out-of-wedlock (e.g. cohabitation, single motherhood)

  • Remo

    Oz, I agree with and concede that point. He should NOT have married her, that was a bad mistake on his part. Society and probably friends/church etc. probably pressured him on this telling him that he shouldn’t care but ultimately this was his fault.

    Now however he is stuck in a marriage with a woman who to his mind didn’t honor her vows, i.e. she can’t honor him with her body as so many others have been honored with it prior. These thoughts are labeled as intrusive akin I imagine to PTSD so the solution is for him to correct his mistake now rather than wait until children are involved and the level of cash and prizes required for the female become a life sentence and not a temporary prison term. I assume with this that his happiness and mental well being are actually worth something and should not be completely subjected to the whim of his now wife – but likely others will disagree on that point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now however he is stuck in a marriage with a woman who to his mind didn’t honor her vows, i.e. she can’t honor him with her body as so many others have been honored with it prior.

      This doesn’t make sense to me. Where in the wedding vows does it specify “honoring with my body” and define that has never having had another partner?

  • JP

    “I then showed how the USA has a 40% and rising illegitimacy rate and how most children are being born by either the lower minority classes or the religious, with both increasingly avoiding legal marriage (the lower classes because it’s a bad financial decision and for the religious because marriage has become liberal thanks to the law).”

    That will be fixed with my solution of “auto-marriage”.

    If you’re co-habitating and have children, congrats!, you are married!

  • Oz

    Remo January 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    “Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”

    ” Yes and it is interesting that this concept would be shocking. In the old testament of the bible finding out your wife was not a virgin on your wedding night did not mean a visit to the Oprah show for a little cry in and some counseling, it was a deal breaker and the vows taken were declared null and void along with very severe punishments for the woman. ”

    But Remo, Nancy’s husband did not want or expect a virgin. He had a certain number that he considered “acceptable” and Nancy had more than double that. And yet he still MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO MARRY HER.

    There is no deception in this marriage.

  • Oz

    Yuhonoiu January 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    ” Low number women should get the heck away from big cities, which are mostly liberal and full of liberal men, who marry ambitious career oriented high-N women.

    Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).

    And no, contrary to liberal hysteria, mantras and misconceptions, they are not “hypocrites”. Sheesh.”

    Chuckle.

  • JP

    I misread it. There was no marriage under false pretenses.

  • Remo

    Oz – he made the conscious decision to marry her. Does that mean he should be unhappy and miserable forever? Do we require even 1/10 of much of women? Of course not. The way I see it they will divorce in the future likely with her filing when she becomes unhaaaaaapy. Regardless of how others think he should feel he can’t handle it. Okay, he can’t, so he can get out now or pay more in cash and prizes later.

    I do not accept the notion that her decision to be slut should carry no long term consequences while his decision to marry should be a life ending ticket to misery. Turn this around. Lets say in 5 years with 2 child support checks, a house, and 401k to plunder, she files for divorce citing his inability to forgive her for this despite knowing about it beforehand. She married *him* knowing he had this problem right? So she shouldn’t be allowed to collect cash and prizes and go chasing after others then? Of course not and no court would think so. So ultimately why should he be forced to hang around until enough prize potential happens and she decides to divorce him (which is inevitable barring some miracle and the risk to him increases every year she gets “accustomed” to a certain kind of lifestyle he’ll be violently forced to pay for).

  • Remo

    Oz – correct there was no marriage under false pretenses – he just can’t handle it. So the question really is should he force himself to stay married until his unhappiness translates to her unhappiness and she divorces him? No that may not happen but even marriages under the best of circumstances have a 40% survival rate – what is the chance for these two? Cut the losses (for him) and get out of Dodge.

  • taterearl

    “Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).”

    I grew up in a town of less than 3,000…pretty religious. Still had many girls get pregnant in high school plus most of the girls rode the carousel early.

    Small towns really aren’t exempt from feminism either.

  • Zach

    @Tasmin

    My point isn’t about whether guys approve or disapprove of promiscuity. My point is that I don’t see how guys concern with selectivity squares with an absolute N such as 5, 10, or whatever. Sure, you may say that guys are concerned about absolute N for STD reasons, but in terms of selectivity as a predictor of loyalty and “makes me feel special” factor, I think it’s a pretty poor data point. A girl with an N of 5 who only had 10 opportunities to have sex is FAR less selective than a girl with an N of 10 who had 1,000 opportunities to have sex. My point is that the emphasis on selectivity and the emphasis on an N “number” don’t square. It’s like trying to judge how fast a car is by focusing on the color (red cars are faster).

  • Oz

    “Oz – he made the conscious decision to marry her. Does that mean he should be unhappy and miserable forever? Do we require even 1/10 of much of women? Of course not. The way I see it they will divorce in the future likely with her filing when she becomes unhaaaaaapy.”

    At this point I’d be more concerned about him cheating on her than the other way around. She says herself that her husband is “handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male” and that “women throw themselves at him.”

    As long as there are no children, divorce is not such a big deal. If they have kids however, they must sacrifice. There was a time when staying together for the sake of the children was a perfectly valid reason to stay together but for some reason people these days look at you like a ghost if you even so much as hint at it.

  • JP

    “At this point I’d be more concerned about him cheating on her than the other way around. She says herself that her husband is “handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male” and that “women throw themselves at him.””

    If she cheats on him, he just sues the other man for alienation of affection.

    Hopefully the other man has deep pockets.

  • http://www.stilettosoncobblestone.com Daphne

    I knew there was a double standard, but wow these male commenters are out of their flippin’ minds. Anyway, it’s good to know just how important that Number is to men.

    Lessons here:

    For younger girls: Yet another reason to take sex seriously and try to keep that N low. Only become intimate with men who really earn it.

    For older girls (who probably already have “high” N): Lie lie lie your butt off. Better yet, avoid lying by saying “not very many” and refuse to give an actual number. If the man insists on hearing your number, then he’s probably an insecure tool you should consider dumping, but you can give him a pre-calculated lie number that you are prepared to stick to for the rest of your life.

    For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 (or whatever your ridiculous slut-o-meter is set at). Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell. Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given? Hand jobs? What if the girl was raped, does that count? This topic is just ridiculous.

  • Doc

    The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

    That has been shown repeatedly, and is the entire basis of the US Government’s “clearance” process where they research you, interview your neighbors, your room-mates from college, and poly-graph you to find out if you have ever betrayed a trust, or otherwise done something. Why? Because a person’s past actions predict their future actions. It is as simple as that.

    I would have kicked “Nancy” to the curb for being a lying whore, if I was looking for anything long term, or pumped and dumped her if I was looking for fun. I certainly wouldn’t have married her – I probably would have strung her along if she was a dependable lay, but that is all. But then, that is what I do with all of the women I date – which is why I like them short-term.

    Of course, I see all American women as fitting into that, mostly because marriage in this country is so nasty as to be not worth it. When you remove marriage from the equation, all that is left is pump and dump, for fun. If you want something more, you have to go to another country which isn’t geared toward raping you financially, and the women are actually feminine. So I assume every American woman is “Nancy” regardless of what she may say, because it’s a lie.

  • JP

    “For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 (or whatever your ridiculous slut-o-meter is set at). Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell. Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given? Hand jobs? What if the girl was raped, does that count? This topic is just ridiculous.”

    The questions is whether it’s some sort of emotional hard-wiring in men, so to speak.

    You don’t get to vote on human nature.

  • J

    Finally, had she been honest from the beginning she obviously would have wound up throwing back this big fish. Women lie precisely because they understand very well that most men will move on.

    She have been honest fom the very beginning. However, he did learn the number before he married her, and he married her anyway. He has some responsiblity here because he did make an informed decision.

  • Lokland

    @Zach

    Your making the mistake of assuming each N has an equal value as all the others.

    Thats not true however, an N=10 is not twice as bad as N=5. The drop in quality is significantly more than double.

    If you work it out so that each additional N has a more negative effect than the previous (which tends to jive with reality) than absolute N is important and selectivity becomes significantly less important.

    Beyond that, theres no logical reason for a man to consider more than just N as a measure of selectivity. Biology wants it quick and simple, trying to figure out the number of offers and total acceptance rate may make logical sense but biology doesn’t care.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thats not true however, an N=10 is not twice as bad as N=5. The drop in quality is significantly more than double.

      Why is it not linear?

  • JP

    “However, he did learn the number before he married her, and he married her anyway. He has some responsiblity here because he did make an informed decision.”

    I know, I misread it.

    Hopefully he got married after the infatuation period wore off.

  • Lokland

    @Daphne

    “What if the girl was raped, does that count?”

    This is cruel but don’t even go there.
    Regardless of N. Mental damage is mental damage.

  • J

    Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.

    VS.

    The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.

    Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.

  • LJ

    @LouiseC 111:

    Surely the moral of this story (other than the obvious don’t sleep around and lie about it) is don’t marry a man who doesn’t respect you.

    Don’t even go out with a man who doesn’t respect you. In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.

    +1

  • Ion

    taterearl

    “Small towns really aren’t exempt from feminism either.”

    I agree. Plenty of “republican towns” have high OOW rates. At least in NYC there’s female competition vs the few reasonably attractive women passed around regularly in the country?

    Don’t republican girls go off to college, just as much anyway? By the time they’re ready to get married, I’m sure Jesus changed them from “the mistakes of their youth” (all 20+ of them). I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. The fantasy of the untainted little country town is over. Hookup culture is in the media, it’s a part of the general environment; its talked about around dinner tables throughout the US, and several other countries.

  • JP

    “Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.”

    I think he’s saying that he only wants lead or copper women.

  • Tasmin

    @Yuhonoiu
    My point above was that we have a culture that encourages hyper-sexual imagery, behavior, and lexicon that greatly favors the unrestricted and works to maintain the (false) sense that overt sexuality and sexually “liberated” women are what men want in the long-term. While part of this may be true in that men of course enjoy sexual imagery and rarely pass up no-strings sex, men also hold quite different views when it comes to the spectrum of LTR-Marriage.

    One result is that unrestricted women feel a constant pressure- be it peer or media or otherwise, to lower their bar in order to compete for the desirable men and thus end up getting to sex too quickly, too often, etc. The other is that the “truth” in terms of what kind of value men place on intimacy (N or however we define it) is muddled at best, resulting in women projecting an image that not only do men not value in the long run, but they themselves may not actually hold either. All this leads to a growing disconnect between values and behaviors and desired outcomes.

    And finally, the cultural message continues to place this disruption at the hands of then men who are attributing value to something that they shouldn’t (due to their failings as men.) The prevalence of this perspective works to (falsely and/or temporarily) relieve women of the price/costs of certain behaviors. But as the stakes become much higher (LTR/Marriage is on the table) they come to find their past choices were well out of alignment with the desires and/or values held by the types of men who are most willing to commit for the long haul.

    My examples are anecdotes certainly. But I’ve been with women who have taken the script and come at me with the belief that it is what I want to hear only to find themselves on the short-term ladder (which in my case is actually a trap door. Next.) when they thought they were presenting for the LTR. The fact that approach is even remotely considered over behaviors and demeanor that is representative of what men actually want in a LTR is troubling: those women who actually hold the values and behaviors that are in line with what men want in a wife feel they need to hide those in favor of the imagery and role-playing that is encouraged in the SMP.

    There are too many masks being worn and too much of the script writing is being done by gay men or women hating men. The reality is at some point two people have to come together and own up for what they believe, what they want, and what they value. The current SMP is supporting a forum fraught with incongruence and IMO this is why there are far less stories about how “it was just easy” when we got together vs “I am concerned about her past” stories.

    And my anecdote was that “I was concerned about her past” because she was selling an image she thought men wanted all while her past was in fact in-line with what I desired, valued. So it wasn’t just N, but rather the incongruence of showing and telling and believing and ultimately trusting. And thats sad because she was looking for a husband and I was looking for a wife and we both lost out.

  • taterearl

    “For the men: GET REAL. ”

    Men live in reality all the time…we know the truth.

    Why don’t the women GET REAL…and understand actions have consequences. Women want to live in a lala land of no judgement, you can do anything you want, and still live happily ever after.

  • J

    Lisa ended up marrying a kind of dorky, big-eared guy, surprising everybody. He turned out to have an enormous amount of ambition and ended up a state senator. They’re still married, have three kids, and still send us a Christmas card. Lisa still looks great, but the funny thing is that she and her husband look like SMP peers now.

    I have a second cousin who was the class slut in high school. She’s now on her second millionaire husband. The class slut of DH’s high school days (went to the sister school of his all-boy school) is married to a neurosurgeon. Makes me feel like I should have been more —-er, cough, cough–open to new experiences.

  • Zach

    @Lokland

    Maybe it’s just me. The only real reason I care about N is as a proxy for selectivity. That’s pretty much it. I wasn’t aware it meant more than that to most other guys. And so in thinking about selectivity, it does make sense (to me at least) to include other factors. Judging how many opportunities a woman has had is not hard. The hotter she is, the more she’s had.

  • JP

    “I have a second cousin who was the class slut in high school. She’s now on her second millionaire husband. The class slut of DH’s high school days (went to the sister school of his all-boy school) is married to a neurosurgeon. Makes me feel like I should have been more —-er, cough, cough–open to new experiences.”

    My second-ish cousin married her high school band teacher (hmmmm) and her grandfather, my uncle, was a neurosurgeon.

    Although the only thing that does is make me wonder why my parents didn’t try to encourage me to go to med school.

  • Oz

    Daphne has a point with this, “For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 ”

    Most American men do not expect or even desire to marry virgins. Yes, there are some extremely strict orthodox religious people in this country and they comprise an extremely small minority of our population. Everybody else does not aspire to celibacy in adulthood. Ever heard of incels? That means “involuntarily celibate” which is what most 27 year old virgins in America would be.

    ” Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.

    VS.

    The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.”

    “Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.”

    J, the solution is to sleep only with men whom you really, really want to. And use condoms.

  • JP

    “Maybe it’s just me. The only real reason I care about N is as a proxy for selectivity. That’s pretty much it.”

    Back in my more moral absolutist perfectionism days, I think I thought about N as a proxy for your worth as a human being, male or female.

  • Ted D

    Daphne – “Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell.”

    I go with the full disclosure policy myself.

    “Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given?”
    Yes
    “Hand jobs?”
    Yes
    “What if the girl was raped, does that count?”
    Do you really want to go here? I wouldn’t count it as a strike against her, but I’d honestly be concerned for her mental health. If all other signs looked good I probably wouldn’t hold it against her. But, if she struck me as having emotional issues or perhaps she runs pretty loose and fast with her sexuality? Then yes, I would consider it as a primary culprit and DQ her.

    And I am “getting real”. I’m 42 and have an N of 4. How? Simple. I only had sex with women I was involved in LTRs with. NO casual. NO ONS. NO FWB. THAT is exactly how I expect a woman to make it into her late 20′s with a low N. Keep it confined to relationships. Now, if she still has a highish N, I’d be concerned that she can’t keep a relationship together for too long and figure she is a risk.

    I honestly don’t care if the first age of marriage is going higher. That doesn’t mean we should all be out fucking our way through our circle of acquaintances in the meantime.

    Let me ask you something. WHo do you think is a better LTR prospect, a guy that has an N of 25 and only three have been from relationships, or a guy with an N of 5 and every one was in a relationship? Who shows more ability to maintain something long term, the guy with lots of casual hookups, or the guy that has a few LTRs under his belt?

    For my money, I’ll take LTR girl any day. Sure, she may lack “sexual experience” (in the slutty ways…) but at least she has already demonstrated the ability to get along with another human in an intimate relationship for awhile. The casual sex girl? All I can say is she should be damn good at using her body for my pleasure. Does that sound like a reason to marry?

    Note to all – I totally missed that Nancy’s husband knew BEFORE they married what her true number was. If that is true, then he is a douche for going through with it. Of course, she is at fault for doing so as well knowing he didn’t respect her.

  • Oz

    ” I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. ”

    I was searching for info on Just1z’s claim that performing fellatio can “help relieve depression” in the giver, and this was the first thing I found.

    ” According to Sex in Christ, the Christian Bible makes several references to oral sex and how it is both accepted and even encouraged in Christianity. Dozens of references to oral sex can be found in Song of Solomon, and it’s intimated in many passages of the Bible that oral sex should be used when you wish to keep yourself pure or chaste, or if you don’t want to have children, but you don’t want to “spill your seed upon the ground.”

    http://voices.yahoo.com/health-benefits-oral-sex-6848074.html?cat=5

  • Yuhonoiu

    I agree. Plenty of “republican towns” have high OOW rates. At least in NYC there’s female competition vs the few reasonably attractive women passed around regularly in the country?

    Don’t republican girls go off to college, just as much anyway? By the time they’re ready to get married, I’m sure Jesus changed them from “the mistakes of their youth” (all 20+ of them). I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. The fantasy of the untainted little country town is over. Hookup culture is in the media, it’s a part of the general environment; its talked about around dinner tables throughout the US, and several other countries.

    Republican doesn’t equal traditional conservative. Republicans are libertarians. The traditional conservative types are the homeschooling creationists who work part-time and have their own social gatherings. lol

  • Yuhonoiu

    Republicans have always struck me as libertarian.

    Traditional conservatives don’t like either USA major parties. lol

  • le biel

    Hey, Mrs Walsh, you should put up two polls:

    One for what the men’s deal-breaking N is

    and

    one for what the women’s actual N is.

  • taterearl

    I also like odds.

    Odds that the woman you marry will consider you her best sexual partner.
    N of 0 = 100%
    N of 1 = 50%
    N of 2 = 33%
    N of 3 = 25%
    N of 4 = 20%
    N of 10 = 10%
    N of 20 = 5%
    N of 50 = 2%

    Combine that with the risk greatly outweighing the reward when it comes to marriage for guys…you better bet a lower N is important. Plus I highly doubt she would sleep with a lot of losers out there so more than likely you are competing against other alphas.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @taterearl

      Where do you get those odds? That assumes the woman likes all the men equally, and does not favor her husband in any way. Maybe she married only when the found the one guy who knew how to give her great orgasms. In that case, the odds of his being her best lover are 100%, regardless of her N.

  • Oz

    ” Republicans are libertarians. ”

    Wrong. Republicans are pro big government.
    Libertarians want an extremely small government, if any at all.

  • Oz

    “Odds that the woman you marry will consider you her best sexual partner.”

    If you’re a great lover the odds are high in any event.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Remo,
    Renee – the fact that you do not understand it does not mean it does not or should not exist as a value and as I pointed out before it isn’t like this concept is new as you’ll find it in pretty much every major religion.

    But since when does the mention of “honor” in a wedding have anything to do with past sexual history?

  • Ion

    ” The traditional conservative types are the homeschooling creationists who work part-time and have their own social gatherings. lol”

    So these are the choices? NYC men who attend slutwalks, and men who believe dinosaurs lived with humans like in The Flintstones?
    :-P

    I guess it’s the extreme beliefs on both sides that are a problem.

    I agree with you partially about liberal nyc men being a no-no for low N women. I’d rather fight with a creationist and have makeup sex everyday of my life, if I had a choice in the matter.

    I was actually shocked when I realized how much better I get along with conservative men over the years. It’s the similarity in core values, which matter more than small “political differences”, I guess. Though liberal men who don’t live in NYC are very different than those that do, in a good way.

  • Bell

    This post made me pretty frustrated. All along, I’ve aimed to be restricted because of a relatively traditional upbringing and the fact that men desire a low N number. But in the end, it doesn’t really seem to matter how you act, as long as you don’t let things get out of hand. Though the men say that they would never want a high N woman, some here still actively chose the unrestricted woman and reconciled with her past
    Personally, it’s been hard to keep things in check when you get a little rowdy. But this post has almost freed me up to have a little fun.
    Now I think to myself: it doesn’t make you any better to have a low N, it may be preferred but a man will ultimately be fine even if you have a moderate N (or a little above). The end result remains the same (you get the guy) instead now you get to have a little more fun along the way

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bell

      Now I think to myself: it doesn’t make you any better to have a low N, it may be preferred but a man will ultimately be fine even if you have a moderate N (or a little above). The end result remains the same (you get the guy) instead now you get to have a little more fun along the way

      Don’t ignore that fact that their marriage is miserable.

  • Oz

    Why is “liberal” being equated with a high N? That’s just as false as “Republicans are Libertarians”.

  • kp

    Ok, this post has been rattling around in my head for the last few hours and now my fingers are itching to comment.

    I truly believe that this hard earned lesson applies to both genders.

    Yes, I know that this comment will be slammed by all the alpha males, but I’m feeling brave :)

    My man’s number is a sticking point for me as well. As a woman looking forward to making a life, home and family with a man, I see a lot of notches on the bedpost as a serious warning sign. How can a man who has been through women like chewing gum be trusted to provide for a family and be counted on to stick around? How do I know that he does not have children, that he may or may not know of, running around from previous chewing gums that will distract him and resources from our family?

    And just to throw my hat in the “all women are sluts” grande debate: I was a virgin until 29 (being 6′ tall, well developed and looking 20 since I was 12 and unable to handle the attention propelled my way on a daily basis was the major reason for the abstinence) and after having recently admitted this to a former flame now a close friend, he is still in shock.

    Yes, I see the irony in my painting all male whores as unreliable while trying to prove that all women, no matter what your first impression of them may be, are not sluts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @kp

      How can a man who has been through women like chewing gum be trusted to provide for a family and be counted on to stick around? How do I know that he does not have children, that he may or may not know of, running around from previous chewing gums that will distract him and resources from our family?

      He cannot be counted on. His cheating and divorce rates are high, his degree of sexual satisfaction in marriage is low.

      A friend of my daughter’s found out that her bf (thankfully not married) has a kid. Not only that – he has known it all along. He got a girl pregnant in college, he has no contact with her or the child, and provides no support. The way she found out is that an old frat brother of his began dating the woman, coincidentally, and she named the baby’s father. The guy went public with the information.

  • Just1Z

    @Oz
    I meant that the ejaculate from the man carries chemicals that enter the woman’ s bloodstream and can affect her mood and bonding to him…sans the French letter / English letter (depending on where you’re from).

    in other mammals they cause an egg to be released by an ovary as well…cool stuff this biology

  • Iggles

    @ Ion:

    Chances are the more effort you have to put into approaching someone, the less likely she is to be a slut (other guys may have had the same hesitation), girls who are totally comfortable with guys are likely to have had more experience with men. But that’s obviously case-by-case.

    I agree. Or she may have brothers and lots of a male friends.

    Comfortable with guys =/= slutty IMO. But regardless of SMV, the “guy’s girl” types end up with a lot male interest (they hang out primarily with men; men in the group get crushes on them; their brothers’ friends are likely to have hooked up with her whilst growing up [any number or combination of bases]), moreso than the shy-reserved girl who has few friends (and of those her friend group is overwhelmingly female). The major different is proximity and approachability.

    The problem is that sexual experience has nothing to do with # of partners in many cases. A girl who’s had 30 partners may have had sex 70 times, while a girl who’s had 1 boyfriend since high school could have had sex 3x a week for 10 years. If you’ve had 2 long term partners, you’ve had more sex than someone who is unrestricted who has had a history of STR and ONS.

    I think we’re off by semantics :lol:

    When I think of sexual experience, I’m not talking about the objective # of times one has had sex. So IMO, the girl who has 30 partners has more overall sexual experience than the woman who has 2, hands down. When men ask about N, they wouldn’t disqualify a woman for having a lot of sex with one partner in favor of a woman who had a dozen ONS because “she’s had less sex!”

    @ Just1Z:

    I have no interest in whether women pay the piper, only that blue pill guys don’t end up paying the bill later.

    Whatever two sane individuals want to get up to in private, bothers me not at all – but honesty all round please.

    Good to know!

    However, I do think some of the guys would like to see “sluts” tarred and feathered. IRL, I see so-called “sluts” being rewarded for being forward with men and viewed as “open” + “friendly”.

    I also see reserved women being slandered as inferior and unattractive. See the comment below:

    @ Oz:

    It could be that promiscuous women in general have a more open and pleasant demeanor whereas non-promiscuous women might come off uptight, judgemental, scornful, and generally not as happy.

    Silly me! Non-promiscuous have only ourselves to blame for any troubles with the opposites sex because we’re so uptight! :roll:

    Honestly, it’s classic “do what I say, not what I do”. Men in the ‘sphere rage that women should be chaste and keep their N low. Yet, in real life many of those same men are chasing and get one-itis for promiscuous women.

    @ JP:

    That will be fixed with my solution of “auto-marriage”.

    If you’re co-habitating and have children, congrats!, you are married!

    Ha! You crack me up! :lol:

    (Honestly, I never understand how some people could have a baby with someone but balk at marriage as too much of a commitment!)

  • Oz

    Bell, if by “restricted” you mean keeping yourself a virgin far into adulthood, I can tell you it simply does not matter. The only men who want virgins are virgins themselves (voluntarily or involuntarily) and they are either extremely religious men (in the minority) or undesirable secular men who can’t get a date off the calendar.

    If by restricted you mean keeping your number low (as in 1 or 2), you can, but if you reach late 20s with only 1 sexual partner, you will be looked at askance like “ok I wonder what’s wrong with her”.

    If you mean keeping your number low as in 3-5 partners by mid-late 20s, that’s more like it. You will have your pick of high, medium and low number men and no one will look at you askance, either for having too low a number or too high.

    Sweet spot.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ J
    “Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.”

    Which prospect puts you in danger of being pump and dump material and which one leaves you get to know the man through interaction and escalation?

    “I want to play a game. Live or die. Make your choice.”
    Jigsaw

    @ taterearl

    “Odds that the woman you marry will consider you her best sexual partner.
    N of 0 = 100%
    N of 1 = 50%
    N of 2 = 33%
    N of 3 = 25%
    N of 4 = 20%
    N of 10 = 10%
    N of 20 = 5%
    N of 50 = 2%”

    Priceless.

  • SayWhaat

    Perhaps an extravert will weigh in who has a low N.

    You rang? :)

    I think Iggles was on the money. A woman with an N of 3 (all LTRs) could be more sexually experienced than another with 3 STRs, but it’s hard to fake a low-N experience. There’s still the matter of getting used to a new partner, and that is something an STR girl might be more used to (“OMGOMG there it is!!” vs. “Whelp, another penis.”).

    My BF took me at face-value when I told him I was a virgin. Prior to him, the majority of the advice I was given was, “don’t tell him, you don’t need to tell him. Use plenty of lube. You’re welcome.” It was well-meaning advice but it absolutely *would NOT* have worked! It took us two or three tries before he could “fit”. And it took another few tries before I stopped bleeding after sex. I can’t imagine going through that with a guy who didn’t know I was a virgin, and I suspect it would be just as awkward were I to have sex with someone else.

    That period of “getting used to someone new” is a lot less awkward for someone with a higher N, I’d wager. YMMV.

  • Remo

    Renee – “But since when does the mention of “honor” in a wedding have anything to do with past sexual history?”

    Since about the dawn of time. Bible, Talmud, Koran, others pick one.

  • Oz

    “I meant that the ejaculate from the man carries chemicals that enter the woman’ s bloodstream and can affect her mood and bonding to him”

    I think orgasm releases more of such chemicals and causes deeper bonding, no matter if its through cunninlingus or p in v. A man can ejaculate into a woman and she might not even feel anything, like no penis, no ejaculate, no orgasm, no nothing. But orgasm is a completely different mammal. :)

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ KP 159
    “My man’s number is a sticking point for me as well. As a woman looking forward to making a life, home and family with a man, I see a lot of notches on the bedpost as a serious warning sign.”

    Promiscuity has ALWAYS been a warning side for both genders in terms of fidelity and commitment. Both men and women stop being able to bond as they keep looking for the next hit like a drug.

    Hypergamy:
    Tho men prefer being with a woman all the men want to get with, they hold up the red card when it’s time to commit. They can live happily with a woman of lesser sex rank that not many men are chasing and commit to them.

    Women prefer being with a man all women want to get with, and they will avoid throwing the flag on the field for promiscuity. They actually see it as a net benefit a reward it. Commitment to a high N cad means they’ve both tamed the beast and get to gloat to the other women. For as long as that lasts anyways. Once the sex ranks shift when she ages or acts bitchy, boom. He drops the hammer. Then we hear about how all men are assholes who are commitment phobes and will trade up for a younger woman.

    Redcards. Us men never stop penalizing promiscuity. It’s women who stopped. (generalization i know.. sheeesh)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Commitment to a high N cad means they’ve both tamed the beast and get to gloat to the other women. For as long as that lasts anyways. Once the sex ranks shift when she ages or acts bitchy, boom. He drops the hammer.

      What about the near certainty of his cheating from the start?

  • JP

    @Iggles:

    “@ JP:

    That will be fixed with my solution of “auto-marriage”.

    If you’re co-habitating and have children, congrats!, you are married!

    Ha! You crack me up!

    (Honestly, I never understand how some people could have a baby with someone but balk at marriage as too much of a commitment!)”

    And if people try to do an end-run around this by not co-habitating, then I’m just going to change the rules so that having a baby together means that you’re married.

    Winning!

  • Remo

    The justification for annulment of the wedding in the Jewish and Christian faiths upon finding your wife is not a virgin was due to her dishonoring her husband. Give your viginity to husband? Honor. Husband is just a number? Dishonor. This was understood. Now most today don’t require a virgin today but obviously this guy has issues with his wifes past and honor is a piece of this certainly.

  • Just1Z

    @Oz

    I’m an atheist, although your biblical quote raised an eyebrow (thanks for the info) I was talking biochemically

  • Oz

    “Tho men prefer being with a woman all the men want to get with, they hold up the red card when it’s time to commit.”

    Red card here means what? That they ask her to stop sleeping with other men and exclusively sleep with them?

    ” They can live happily with a woman of lesser sex rank that not many men are chasing and commit to them.”

    I said before that for average people its better to mate with other average people of equal rank and sexual experience rather than someone who’s got people oogling and throwing themselves at him/her all the time. An unequal partnership in the sexual attractiveness sphere causes a lot of insecurity and anxiety on the lesser half.

    “Women prefer being with a man all women want to get with, and they will avoid throwing the flag on the field for promiscuity. They actually see it as a net benefit a reward it.”

    Where are all these ordinary women who feel its a net benefit to marry a high N cad with a higher chance of STDs and baby mama drama?

    “Commitment to a high N cad means they’ve both tamed the beast and get to gloat to the other women.”

    Repeat question: where is this particular demographic of female?

    ” For as long as that lasts anyways. Once the sex ranks shift when she ages or acts bitchy, boom. He drops the hammer. ”

    OK so how has sex rank shifted in this example if he was the more desirable one to begin with?

    “Then we hear about how all men are assholes who are commitment phobes and will trade up for a younger woman.”

    It doesn’t follow.

  • Oz

    “The justification for annulment of the wedding in the Jewish and Christian faiths upon finding your wife is not a virgin was due to her dishonoring her husband. ”

    And yet widows and divorcees still married. That’s because it wasn’t the not being a virgin that was considered the dishonor, but rather false advertisement. Plenty of non-virgins married, their bride price would just be lower, that’s all.

  • Ion

    “Now I think to myself: it doesn’t make you any better to have a low N, it may be preferred but a man will ultimately be fine even if you have a moderate N (or a little above). The end result remains the same (you get the guy) instead now you get to have a little more fun along the way”

    I agree.

    Men might not LIKE a high N, but high N women always end up in the peripheral vision of guys (unrestricted women have their pick of the best betas and the best alphas). Being low N, restricted, and an introvert will hurt your chances more than being high N, unrestricted and flirty, all other things (including attractiveness) being equal. Many girls have shared that here, and seen their unrestricted friends marry off to great guys. It’s hard to tell you to “ignore your own eyes”, when men’s attention is naturally averted to the girl flirting with the alpha, and not the wallflower.

    If you sleep with 50 guys, the odds of finding at least 1 guy ready to marry and put your past aside is higher than if you sleep with 1 or 2 who aren’t ready for lifelong commitment, because you’re both young. Maybe that’s it.

    But regardless, I agree with Oz about the 3-5 sweetspot (+ or – a few, depending on the situation).

  • Emily

    >> “. I also know high N women who have no trouble finding boyfriends while my other low N friends are having a tough time meeting guys. Life ain’t fair. There is no weighed scale looming to even things out. If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught.”

    Exactly! I find this argument especially funny when it’s coming from the guys who are dating/married to a high-N woman.

  • J

    I know, I misread it.

    No, my bad. I responded before I saw the above.

  • Lokland

    @Ion

    “If you sleep with 50 guys, the odds of finding at least 1 guy ready to marry and put your past aside is higher than if you sleep with 1 or 2 who aren’t ready for lifelong commitment, because you’re both young.”

    I suspect a more important factor is the ABILITY to get a man to commit. Lacking that its really irrelevant if a woman sleeps with 2 or 200 guys.

    There is a very large amount of skill required to make a man want to marry you. The only place on the planet this seems to have been forgotten is in North America.

  • Just1Z

    @Iggles
    I think that wanting to see ‘ natural’ justice done is a pretty fundamental human wish. Heaven vs Hell being an important part of many religions – ultimate justice is done by the ultimate judge. You sluts will pay!!! (not ‘ you’ you, clearly).

    But I’m an atheist, and I see the shot politicians etc get away with all the time, consequence free for them. I’ ‘ve given up on justice.

    So, not worried about ho’ comeuppance, just that no one else pays.

    I love low- N and a virgin would be great. the education would be fun, I imagine. I love a little innocence in a woman, not stupidity, but sweet innocence. but then I prefer feminine women to ball breaking feminists – like any sane man . :)

  • Oz

    “Now I think to myself: it doesn’t make you any better to have a low N, it may be preferred but a man will ultimately be fine even if you have a moderate N (or a little above). The end result remains the same (you get the guy) instead now you get to have a little more fun along the way”

    I agree.

    Men might not LIKE a high N, but high N women always end up in the peripheral vision of guys (unrestricted women have their pick of the best betas and the best alphas). Being low N, restricted, and an introvert will hurt your chances more than being high N, unrestricted and flirty, all other things (including attractiveness) being equal. Many girls have shared that here, and seen their unrestricted friends marry off to great guys. It’s hard to tell you to “ignore your own eyes”, when men’s attention is naturally averted to the girl flirting with the alpha, and not the wallflower.

    If you sleep with 50 guys, the odds of finding at least 1 guy ready to marry and put your past aside is higher than if you sleep with 1 or 2 who aren’t ready for lifelong commitment, because you’re both young. Maybe that’s it.”

    You make some good points. Wallflowers simply will not get the human exposure and acquire the social skills that more outgoing women will. Forget about sex, I’m talking about being able to navigate all kinds of social interactions and carry conversations with all sorts of different people, opening oneself up to new ideas and experiences. This helps in creating a well rounded individual and that’s attractive to both sexes, young and old.

    I’m not one of those who think all adult virgins are weirdos and if they just got laid all their problems would be solved, but that’s a popular meme for a reason.

    There’s also the meme of the unattractive or obese girlfriend of the more popular “pretty girl” who carries a bitter cockblocking vibe and bitch shield on behalf of her friend, but its really a front for her own sexual insecurities.

    Am I correct when I say men in general are attracted to healthy, pretty women who have an air of openness and approachability to them? To women that come off as fun and easy to be around? Comfortable in their own skin and comfortable in male company? These are not sexually insecure women, though I’m not saying they are “sluts” with numbers in the high 50s either. But one thing is for sure, you don’t get to be that type of “mesmerizing” woman by shying away from men and sex your whole life.

  • Lokland

    @Just1Z

    “So, not worried about ho’ comeuppance, just that no one else pays.”

    There is a very sizeable chasm between you never deserve love/commitment in life and stay way the fuck over there, lil further please, perfect, thank you.

    Again, sluts don’t piss me off. Nor does having sluts in my life in non-commital roles offend me. I do find the idea of having my choice in the matter removed to be unpalatable.

  • Oz

    “The other thing is that I know several virgins who have lied, for fear of coming across as a prude, religious type, unattractive, etc. Usually virgins will give a number from 1-3. I’ve also heard women in the 1-2 range say they are a bit higher than that. ”

    I guess if one is a drop dead gorgeous babe and knows it, she can admit to being an adult virgin and get little to no askance looks by saying “I never met a man who was my equal” or something like that, but for the rest of us ordinary women, being a virgin far into adulthood signifies undesirability, as it does so for a man as well.

  • Lokland

    Hmm that last one should be to Ion and it should quote this:

    “If you sleep with 50 guys, the odds of finding at least 1 guy ready to marry and put your past aside is higher than if you sleep with 1 or 2 who aren’t ready for lifelong commitment, because you’re both young. ”

    Not sure what happened.

  • Ion

    Iggles

    “The major different is proximity and approachability.”

    +1! Slutty girls have the win on both counts.

    “When I think of sexual experience, I’m not talking about the objective # of times one has had sex. ”

    Thanks for clearing that up, I agree 100%. I just meant that vaginal tightness shouldn’t be an indication that a woman has loose morals, if she’s had lots of sex with one partner vs a woman who’s a skank, but has had a summer off. But yes, we definitely agree here!

    Saywhaat

    “There’s still the matter of getting used to a new partner, and that is something an STR girl might be more used to (“OMGOMG there it is!!” vs. “Whelp, another penis.”). ”

    Haha yep! You and Iggles are right. Unfortunately some men read the early stages of awkwardness as “red flags” and “lacking chemistry”. I dislike the word “chemistry” btw, narcissists, alphas, unrestricted girls, etc., have incredible “chemistry” with everyone, because they’re likeable and experienced. “Chemistry” is not a word that applies with some introverts, and two awkward introverts or a restricted girl/beta guy might have a crappy/awkward first date and not know how to progress, but are compatible long term.

  • Oz

    “Another 6 months later I finally came clean and confessed my real number. He was SO close to just ending it with me right then and there. Not only was I a slut, but I was a liar, which was even worse. Breaking trust in a relationship is the WORST thing you can ever do. He was so angry with me for ‘pulling the wool over his eyes’..for trying to make myself appear better than I really was. I just didn’t want him to judge me for my past. I wanted him to get to know me as a person first, and love and accept me for who I am today. He says that what I did wasn’t fair because he fell in love with me…but he hates my past. There’s no way in hell he would’ve got involved with me if he’d known how many people I’d slept with.

    Over one year later we’re still together and recently got married. He now knows everything about me. My past is shamful and embarrassing, but it feels really good to be open and honest with him. There are no more secrets. He is doing his best to love and accept me for who I am. He knows that I am a good person, and a loving wife with a lot to offer. He just wishes I made better choices in my past. Some days are really hard and he can’t stop thinking about the things that I’ve done. I feel badly and think that he could’ve had any girl in the world – an innocent girl – but instead he’s stuck with me. Damaged goods.”

    NANCY if you are reading this I’d like to suggest that perhaps you feel bad about your past ONLY because your husband does. If on the other hand he made absolutely no big deal about it, neither would you.

    The lesson here is to be honest from the get go and the universe will align to bring you someone who best reflects your own personal values. Just see the pain that your husband’s judgement upon you is causing both of you and possibly the pain it will cause your future children. Had you been honest then he may have dumped you but you would be free to find a man who, as you say, “loves you for you” and doesn’t see you solely as the sum of your past sexual partners.

    Both of you would be free to find a more compatible match.

  • Lokland

    Okay just ignore my last comment I’ve confused myself now.

  • Cooper

    “The SMP is very screwed up.”

    Which precisely why I don’t place very much merit on “what works” sometimes.

  • SayWhaat

    “Chemistry” is not a word that applies with some introverts, and two awkward introverts or a restricted girl/beta guy might have a crappy/awkward first date and not know how to progress, but are compatible long term.

    Hmm…I think the definition of “chemistry” varies from person to person. Personally, I have a high threshold for awkwardness. I tend to find it endearing. I remember this one date where the guy asked a waiter for the check — only it wasn’t the waiter, it was just some dude on his way out who happened to be wearing a black shirt and blended in with the waitstaff! It was hilarious. XD

    Though later I discovered that “awkwardness” was a front to disguise promiscuity so YMMV. -__-

  • J

    The justification for annulment of the wedding in the Jewish and Christian faiths upon finding your wife is not a virgin was due to her dishonoring her husband.

    Biblically, Jews got divorces, not annulments. A divorce terminates a valid marriage; an annulment says the marriage never existed. Since Judaism allows divorce, it has little reason to mess with annulments unless there was in fact something wrong procedually with the marriage ceremony or paperwork. There is a middle-aged Orthodox Jewish couple in my neighbor that recently discovered that their marriage was technically invalid due to a mistake in their marriage contract. The issue of the marriage not being real or sacramental never came up, nor did the legitimacy of their now adult kids, but they were encouraged to “remarry.” They did and had a damn nice party afterward.

    In the OT, virgins commanded a higher bride price than non-virgins, so we can assume that non-virgins were still considered marriageable. Fraud, not lack of virginity, would have been the immediate issue for a divorce. The OT does not specify grounds for divorce; it merely says that if a man finds someting unseemingly in his wife, he has to divorce her legally as oppsoed to just tossing her out the door. This meant a return of the bride price and safeguarded the woman’s rights.

  • Eric

    I’ve borderline swallowed the red pill completely. Susan I’ve seen a lot of women starting to hold onto loser fwb’s for years in between boyfriends. They do this to keep their numbers low, but they’re still giving a guy sex for free and many of these guys the women describe as not bf material or hot losers. A number is a poor indicator of promiscuity nowadays and old screening methods are useless. The old me would have said shame on her for being dishonest but I feel like it’s more his fault for being such a blue pill man.

  • Oz

    In and of itself a low N has absolutely zero value to the avearage, non-religiously observant man.

    What has value is looks, personality and how you make him “feel”. If in combination with all of the above you also by chance have a low N, awesome. But without the above it has zero value.

    Some women seem to be getting the very wrong idea that simply having a low or no N will make them valuable to the man of their choice. Nothing could be further from the truth.

  • Just1Z

    @lokland
    truth is required so that an informed decision is possible – I agree

  • Ion

    Lokland

    “There is a very large amount of skill required to make a man want to marry you. The only place on the planet this seems to have been forgotten is in North America.”

    Yeah tell me about it.

    Perhaps the skills once required have now changed?

    The “skills” that are prioritized now are likeability, sexual kinkiness, neurosis which is now considered a “cute flaw” for women to have, “chemistry” (see previous comment) are skills unrestricted women have hands down. They are good skills but what seems to be missing are:

    Overall compassion (not manicured “concern” that suits one’s benefit at the time), likes/is good with/has been exposed to children, is decent and naturally kind, has good genes, ability to stick to/follow through with things, can entertain one’self without constant attention from others, is reserved but sensual, loyal and loveable (not just likeable) etc., are skills that have taken a backseat.

  • Russ in Texas

    I see this as all-well.

    1. She came out and said “I deceived you, bigtime.”
    2. She lost his respect.
    3. He still chose her, when it’s obvious (per her text) that he’s got plenty of options.


    4. She’s got enough character to be humbled and make DAMNED sure she doesn’t eff it up further.

  • INTJ

    @ George

    I agree a high number by itself is an issue (I don’t believe her # is actually given.) Lying about is a second issue stacked on top of that.

    No, but we know it’s significantly higher than 10.

  • JP

    “There is a middle-aged Orthodox Jewish couple in my neighbor that recently discovered that their marriage was technically invalid due to a mistake in their marriage contract.”

    How did they get in there in the first place?

    Seems like a strange place to go.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    I don’t care what era we’re in, I’d actually endorse it. (*Help yourself to the grains of salt, to the left*)

    Young women won’t listen to Nancy’s advice, on how men “think and feel about sex”, as long as we have women like Ashley pigeonholing the exact same thing as insecurity!!!!! (Or shaming like Just1Z appropriately put it)

    As always, took the words right out of my mouth.

  • J

    Odds that the woman you marry will consider you her best sexual partner…. N of 0 = 100%

    I dunno. I’ve had women who married as virgins ask me, “Is that all there is?” Being someone’s best because you are their only still doesn’t mean that the woman will enjoy sex with you. A lot n=1 women quit on their husbands after the kids come because they just don’t care for sex as they know it with him.

  • Just1Z

    @Oz
    no, statistically speaking N does make a difference – See the link I gave earlier to the Social Path guy. There is a statistical basis for men generally correctly preferring low N for commitment. It may be inconvenient, but it looks to be true – reality is not feminist, reality takes dump on fair quite regularly.

  • Ion

    Saywhaaat

    “Hmm…I think the definition of “chemistry” varies from person to person. ”

    Idk, it might…but I think it’s too risky to base a relationship on it, especially in the early phases since “chemistry” can fizzle, and especially since chemistry is a trait that can be mimicked by anyone with enough experience.

    “I have a high threshold for awkwardness. I tend to find it endearing.”

    Yeah me too :-), I find it hot when guys stutter when talking to me, not sure why. BUT sometimes awkwardness appears to be a lack of interest. You just freeze up. I know of several shy girls who say they look away and frown when a guy glances over at them, I’ve been guilty of this as well, and it often happened when I was really attracted to the guy, especially.

  • INTJ

    @ Sasha

    I am having fun reading these comments and am a first time commenter…
    So, on the opposite end of the spectrum…, I just got out of an 8 year relationship – engagement was ended, etc. I am 31 and my number is 2. Since there are such strong opinions on high numbers, what is the opinion on low numbers?

    8 year relationship ended? That sounds terrible. :(

    As for low numbers, us HUS commenters love low numbers. However, virginity can be a problem when dealing with non-HUS people, as SayWhaat can attest.

  • Oz

    Ion, see my comment 195 above yours.

    “The “skills” that are prioritized now are likeability, sexual kinkiness, neurosis which is now considered a “cute flaw” for women to have, “chemistry” (see previous comment) are skills unrestricted women have hands down. ”

    Agreed. But don’t lay the blame solely at the feet of so called “unrestricted” women. Any above average looking pretty girl will have more probability of the above simply because her looks are the gateway to developing all of those.

    Hope said, “What girl isn’t attached to her phone nowadays? And she is really pretty? She’ll have tons of guys around her. You’re likely just one of many.”

    This goes for introverted pretty girls as well. My neighbor’s daughter comes to mind. She doesn’t even go to school (home schooled, if you could call it that, I call it just staying home) and yet she’s never been without a boyfriend since the age of 14 (she’s 16 now), simply because she’s thin and pretty. Has she had sex? You betcha! Why wouldn’t she? Most parents do not tell their teenage children to stay virgins til marriage, they tell them to “be careful and use protection”.

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    I know of several shy girls who say they look away and frown when a guy glances over at them, I’ve been guilty of this as well, and it often happened when I was really attracted to the guy, especially.

    This is really unfortunate, since it makes it that much harder for their shy male counterparts to know they’re interested.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    FWIW, I have personally found little evidence of a long-term, auto-policing morality tale effect in place in which higher-than-average-N women are punished for having enjoyed penis.

    This may be just or unjust; I’ll leave that to others to work out, as moral reflection is not my strong suit. I can say that these “slutty” girls often end up with successful and attractive men, provided that they are hot and tell guys what we want to hear.

    Yes, a lot of them are clearly lying about N and probably living with some fear of having their true pasts discovered, but I have also been with women who were very upfront about it and it was sort of endearing and refreshing in a way that I can’t really articulate very well right now.

    I guess I don’t feel quite the same sense that some of you guys do that a psychological or physiological depreciation has necessarily occurred with each cock that has been absorbed, as if the more sexually active girl was a 4-wheel drive vehicle that was thoroughly used up by reckless offroad racing in Baja or whatever.

    I do understand that kind of visceral reaction, though I fear that it places a young woman in a very difficult performance environment: if she makes a man wait for an extended period and demands that he heavily commits resources to her in order to prove himself worthy of access to her sexuality, then she may be called a gold-digger, user, etc. Inevitably, a number of men will take her out on expensive and flashy dates and get nothing in the way of happy endings.

    If she chooses not make a man wait for an extended period and goes with the more popular hang-out-to-hook-up-to-see-what-happens model, then it’s really a matter of dumb luck to some extent: screening is going to be difficult because most men are going to be deceptive about their true commitment intentions. Very few real-world, highly-successful players actually come out and say that they categorically do not want LTRs, especially if a target girl is hot. They’ll say that they “don’t have a plan” and “want to go with the flow and hang out and see what happens”.

    Maybe a few, rare guys are completely upfront and clear about it, but most of the claims I read on the internet are just so much bullshit; players I have known very well from across a spectrum of apex alpha communities—Div I campus football heroes, Navy SEALs, investment bankers and high-octane fund managers, pro MMA fighters, etc.—will still habitually deceive women about their long-term intentions, and have a number of “combat dating” and pop-evo psych rationalizations available to them for why this is ok.

    Unless the average age of marriage comes down, young women are going to be stuck contending with this dilemma for years, facing the hammer of deceptive alphas on the one hand and the anvil of widespread expectations for rapid sexual escalation on the other. They basically have 3-5 dates to decide if the guy they are with is a player or not, which is a tough one when A) he himself may not totally know and B) when the legit players can wait it out a little while because they have side option FWBs and porn to help them get off in the meantime (in fact, the true player can sometimes appear to be more patient than Captain LTR Sincerity because he has this relief system available).

    Thoughts…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I think you’ve summed up the rock and a hard place dilemma quite well.

      They basically have 3-5 dates to decide if the guy they are with is a player or not, which is a tough one when A) he himself may not totally know and B) when the legit players can wait it out a little while because they have side option FWBs and porn to help them get off in the meantime (in fact, the true player can sometimes appear to be more patient than Captain LTR Sincerity because he has this relief system available).

      Yes, and 5 is generous. With “blue pill” guys being told that a woman who wants you knows it in 3 minutes and puts out in 3 dates max, there’s understandable clamoring about price discrimination, etc. This has led to the self-creation of the Pretend Asshole Brigade, which I feel I have no choice but to disqualify, as women cannot possibly discern the genuine Dark Triads types from their cocky impostors.

      BTW, the high value, benevolent alpha type also gets shortchanged, as no sane woman believes he could possibly choose monogamy. Even a woman of his own SMV is going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop and feel less than secure about future relationship satisfaction.

      We always hear about the necessity of slut shaming, and when I’ve suggested shaming cads, the men have been strongly opposed, claiming that women are the gatekeepers. IDK – if we stopped rewarding cads with “SMP WINNER” trophies, we might see a shift.

  • INTJ

    @ Russ in Texas

    I see this as all-well.

    1. She came out and said “I deceived you, bigtime.”
    2. She lost his respect.
    3. He still chose her, when it’s obvious (per her text) that he’s got plenty of options.


    4. She’s got enough character to be humbled and make DAMNED sure she doesn’t eff it up further.

    Yes, I see it as all well too, precisely because of 4.

  • Oz

    “no, statistically speaking N does make a difference – See the link I gave earlier to the Social Path guy. There is a statistical basis for men generally correctly preferring low N for commitment. It may be inconvenient, but it looks to be true – reality is not feminist, reality takes dump on fair quite regularly.”

    Let me wager a bet here. The number changes from country to country, right?

  • JP

    “B) when the legit players can wait it out a little while because they have side option FWBs and porn to help them get off in the meantime (in fact, the true player can sometimes appear to be more patient than Captain LTR Sincerity because he has this relief system available).”

    This sounds about right.

  • INTJ

    @ kp

    Ok, this post has been rattling around in my head for the last few hours and now my fingers are itching to comment.

    I truly believe that this hard earned lesson applies to both genders.

    Yes, I know that this comment will be slammed by all the alpha males, but I’m feeling brave

    My man’s number is a sticking point for me as well. As a woman looking forward to making a life, home and family with a man, I see a lot of notches on the bedpost as a serious warning sign. How can a man who has been through women like chewing gum be trusted to provide for a family and be counted on to stick around? How do I know that he does not have children, that he may or may not know of, running around from previous chewing gums that will distract him and resources from our family?

    You get no complaints from me (I’m one of the many male virgins here). :D

    And just to throw my hat in the “all women are sluts” grande debate: I was a virgin until 29 (being 6′ tall, well developed and looking 20 since I was 12 and unable to handle the attention propelled my way on a daily basis was the major reason for the abstinence) and after having recently admitted this to a former flame now a close friend, he is still in shock.

    Yes, I see the irony in my painting all male whores as unreliable while trying to prove that all women, no matter what your first impression of them may be, are not sluts.

    No, there’s no irony. It’s perfectly consistent to say that first impressions are not reliable indicators of promiscuity while also saying that promiscuity is a good indicator of unreliableness (in both sexes).

  • Cooper

    @INTJ

    :)

  • Oz

    “This may be just or unjust; I’ll leave that to others to work out, as moral reflection is not my strong suit. I can say that these “slutty” girls often end up with successful and attractive men, provided that they are hot and tell guys what we want to hear. ”

    That’s what I said above @ 195.

    “In and of itself a low N has absolutely zero value to the avearage, non-religiously observant man.

    What has value is looks, personality and how you make him “feel”. If in combination with all of the above you also by chance have a low N, awesome. But without the above it has zero value.

    Some women seem to be getting the very wrong idea that simply having a low or no N will make them valuable to the man of their choice. Nothing could be further from the truth.”

  • J

    @JP

    They started out Reform and got more religious as they got older. A lot of Reform Jews have these very orate, framed marriage contracts that are written in Hebrew and have flowers, doves, etc on them. They’re very pretty; people hang them on the wall. These folks were being visited by their rabbi who saw it on the wall, read it and told them it was fill of errors and invalid. He remarried them on their anniversary.

  • Underdog

    No way is this man an alpha. Alphas don’t put oneitis for a woman over the fact that he got outright manipulated by her.

  • Ion

    ” Any above average looking pretty girl will have more probability of the above simply because her looks are the gateway to developing all of those. ”

    I’ve met plenty of slutty girls I knew of was about 4-6 in attractiveness, and other girls here have said the same. Many of the men “forgiving the past” of their wives/girlfriends are not dating girls who are 8-10s I assume?

    “yet she’s never been without a boyfriend since the age of 14 (she’s 16 now), ”

    Adult examples? I can’t base the reality of the adult SMV on what happens in high school. Usually the real SMV examples start in college. And there’s plenty of attractive girls who don’t have sex until senior year of high school.

    I don’t doubt that the girls who are 8-1os are approached by cads. But the manosphere seems to forget that ALL women who are at least a 3 are approached by cads. So what makes some of us stay away from them, while unrestricted girls, regardless of where they sit on the SMV don’t?

    Introversion/restricted/monogamous, etc., have little to do with attractiveness, they are based on personality, morals and character.

  • Just1Z

    is there a PJ in the house, by any chance?

    Oz, why not read the article? it’ s actually got plausibility…

    and once more for the dumb seats – low- n for commitment. high- n is just so convenient for non committed relationships. reality doesn’t’ go away just because you ignore it, that way lie cats

    gnight

  • taterearl

    Why women with a high n can still get commitment.

    Because when 80% of the males are left out…you can find many willing men to take any female attention.

    The downside is that guy they commit to is generally not what you would consider a high value man. So yeah she gets married…but she is rarely if ever haaaaaaaaaapy.

  • J

    Which prospect puts you in danger of being pump and dump material and which one leaves you get to know the man through interaction and escalation?

    Yet, the ‘sphere’s advice to men is that if a woman doesn’t put out after three dates, she’s out. Both of those positions can’t simultaneously be correct. How does the ‘sphere characterize stuff like that? Oh yeah, fried ice! That’s my point.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Historically speaking, slut-shaming was mostly something women did to other women. It’s quite recent that men have started rejecting women for excessive promiscuity. Basically since the appearance of sex positive feminism in the late 1980s?

    Seriously, before the advent of birth control (1960), women couldn’t do it with anywhere near as many men as they can now. It took about twenty-five years after the introduction of hormonal birth control before feminism turned and fought hard to knock-down slut shaming. We’re just now about another twenty-five years after female-based slut shaming was counter-shamed into oblivion, so we’re on target for a generational wave of change.

  • Lokland

    @Ion

    “likeability, sexual kinkiness, neurosis”

    Like-ability is not a trait of the extroverted. I’m extremely introverted (10 minute conversation with stranger = 2 hour nap.) People genuinely like me in relatively short periods of time and apparently trust me (for some odd reason I have yet to identify).

    Shy/awkward have always been and always will be character flaws but they are not the same as being introverted..

    I certainly hope sexual kinkiness is not relegated to only sluts. I once did my wife on (edited for PG13 content). She is most definitely highly restricted. Also, personal anecdote, lower N tends to be kinkier, higher N is more of a just get on with it kind of vibe.

    Neurosis, not sure on the definition but being boring was never a good thing.

    Backseat Items

    “Overall compassion,” of course. No guy wants to date a woman who cares about everything. Preferably their children, himself and family, no more.

    “Likes/is good with/has been exposed to children,”
    Agreed (and by agree I mean taking a back seat when it should not have).

    “is decent and naturally kind,”
    Never seen a LONGTERM girlfriend who was not this. Perhaps your interpretation of events is clouded by your own bias.

    “has good genes,” Being hot never stopped mattering.

    “ability to stick to/follow through with things,”
    Agreed.

    “can entertain one’self without constant attention from others,”
    Quadruple agree.

    “is reserved but sensual, loyal and loveable”
    All highly valued.

    I think your mistaking attraction vs. comfort traits (in the same way that beta and alpha traits are mixed for men). Attraction traits can get a man going and if he’s pathetic even into a relationship. Comfort traits (your back seat traits) tend to be what convince a man to ACTUALLY commit.

    Hate to break it to the ladies but getting the girlfriend label is not really profound. I handed it out quite liberally and it never meant more than exclusive until I feel like it.

  • Oz

    “As someone who came of age in the 70s I can assure you that women were lied to about what men find attractive, or in this case, unattractive. ”

    And we’re being lied to yet again if we are being told that a low or no N has value in and of itself. It does not. Looks, personality and how we make him “feel” are what gets the prize, not number. Number in relation to the other 3 is a bonus, but by itself it means nothing to men.

  • JP

    “They started out Reform and got more religious as they got older. A lot of Reform Jews have these very orate, framed marriage contracts that are written in Hebrew and have flowers, doves, etc on them. They’re very pretty; people hang them on the wall. These folks were being visited by their rabbi who saw it on the wall, read it and told them it was fill of errors and invalid. He remarried them on their anniversary.”

    Interesting way to find out.

  • J
  • Lokland

    @J

    ” I’ve had women who married as virgins ask me, “Is that all there is?” Being someone’s best because you are their only still doesn’t mean that the woman will enjoy sex with you. A lot n=1 women quit on their husbands after the kids come because they just don’t care for sex as they know it with him.”

    Not to down on your ability to be a downer but is there any situation a man could put himself in that you would foresee him not being relegated to the sidelines/cheated on/disregarded/have a wife who is not attracted?

  • JP

    @J

    Wow. Artistic marriage contracts.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Oops, I dropped by thinking I was at hooking-up-smart.com but found I’m at the-scarlett-letter.org instead.
    I have 10/10 eyesight but maybe it’s time I wear glasses when I type URLs. Sigh.

    Amidst the medieval fog here, some lights of hope:

    On the woman’s side:

    Anne :
    if there were ever any red flags, he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough
    True. And some guys here conveniently avoid mentioning this factor…
    Women either have the urge to sleep around, and will, or don’t, and won’t.
    Period.
    Maybe this is my European background speaking, but over here, the ‘slut shaming’ seems like a bit of a lost cause.
    Except maybe in the Brittish isles (surprise surprise) and most of the mediterranean area, that is spot on true.

    J: I personally have never been asked that question by any guy I’ve been in a relationship with, my husband included. The general assumption on both my part and the part of the men has been that everyone has a past to some degree or another.
    So you did find some unicorns overthere after all… :-)
    Lisa C: In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.
    Yes, Love #1 and respect #2 in my own book.

    On the man’s side:

    Bill: It’s kind of wimpy want to be the biggest fish in the pond by arranging to be the only fish that’s ever been there.
    I’m jealous of that metaphor. :-)

    Bastiat Blogger: The guys who are permissive and tolerant are players and they will encourage high female N because it benefits them. It’s like a girl has a choice between Taliban Todd and Playboy Bob.
    Yep, that’s what I saw there, sadly more often than not.

    J: The questions is whether it’s some sort of emotional hard-wiring in men, so to speak.
    To me it looks rather very much cultural… Subconconscious puritan stains anyone?

    Zach: My point is that the emphasis on selectivity and the emphasis on an N “number” don’t square. It’s like trying to judge how fast a car is by focusing on the color (red cars are faster).
    Exactly. Well put. Any man with enough experience with women reaches the same conclusion at some point.

    Voilà. Fixed. Next topic?

  • J

    Interesting way to find out.

    LOL. There’s a lot of joking speculation among my neighbors as to whether they have valid marriages. Most are Reform; their documents were executed by artists as keepsakes or sort of a cool thing to have, not as a legally binding document. See the link I posted above.

    Orthodox documents are more accurate and not as pretty. They are meant to be binding in the rabbinical court system.

    My neighbor’s issue came up only because they displayed their pretty but meaningless Reform document where it was visible to their new Orthodox rabbi could see it.

  • Oz

    Ion, “I’ve met plenty of slutty girls I knew of was about 4-6 in attractiveness, and other girls here have said the same. Many of the men “forgiving the past” of their wives/girlfriends are not dating girls who are 8-10s I assume?”

    Ion, may I ask what you mean by “slutty”? The example of the teen neighbor I cited was not one of a “slut” per se. Rather she’s an example of a pretty, introverted homeschooled girl who despite not going to school or having much of a social life, managed never to be without a boyfriend for the past 2 1/2 years because she is thin and attractive. She doesn’t have a fake ID for bar hopping. She’s not sneaking out in the middle of the night to have trains run on her. No. She’s simply having “relationship sex” like Susan promotes. Would you call that slutty?

    What I’m saying is that she is not slutty, nor is she a virgin. And if she simply restricts herself to “relationship sex” she will have a higher number by 19 than I had by 30.

    “I don’t doubt that the girls who are 8-1os are approached by cads. But the manosphere seems to forget that ALL women who are at least a 3 are approached by cads. So what makes some of us stay away from them, while unrestricted girls, regardless of where they sit on the SMV don’t?”

    I’m way above a 3 and I hardly ever got approached, by cads or otherwise.

    “Introversion/restricted/monogamous, etc., have little to do with attractiveness, they are based on personality, morals and character.”

    Yeah I know. My teen example is both introverted and pretty. And she’d be considered “restricted” by Susan’s own standards (relationship sex). And she’ll still have a higher number at 19 than I had at 30.

    So it seems we’re all talking over each other’s heads here, using terms like “slutty” and “restricted” and all of us having entirely different ideas what these things mean in our own heads.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Bastiat,

    In my opinion, it all comes down to how a woman accumulated those partners. If she goes into every dating situation with a pure heart attempting to get to a relationship, but is victimized by players, it’s a slight negative because of the victimization. In comparison, a woman who has a history of no-strings attached sex is a vastly higher risk, even if the total number of sexual partners is the same between the two women.

    I don’t really care about N per sae, I just care about how they came about.
    Women who date constantly and seem to need no time to emotionally recover after a failed relationship aren’t my type. Generally if I talk to a woman about her sexual history, I only want to know about the circumstances of her last two partners. What she did years ago, doesn’t matter very much. The details of those relationships tell me all I need to know. How did they meet, why did they break-up, how long was the relationship?

    Defining N as a quantity really doesn’t tell me much about the quality of her past relationships.

  • J

    Not to down on your ability to be a downer but is there any situation a man could put himself in that you would foresee him not being relegated to the sidelines/cheated on/disregarded/have a wife who is not attracted?

    Seriously, you see me as a downer? I’ve been faithfully married to the same guy for nearly a quarter of a century, and we still have a great sex life (considering that three out of our knees are shot). I would think that my mere being would be encouraging.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      we still have a great sex life (considering that three out of our knees are shot).

      LMAO!

  • J

    Artistic marriage contracts.

    Yes. I’m envious actually.

  • Lokland

    @J

    I realize life is good for you and your husband.
    Just your relative view of pretty much..umm… every other male in any potential situation is that it will likely turn out negative.

    High N, bad.
    Low N, bad.
    Medium N, bad.

    Just curious if you could foresee a scenario with both a higher likely hood of happiness than misery and that it was reasonably attainable?

  • Bill

    When in was in junior high, I figured that the plain girls would do it because they needed to and the hot ones wouldn’t, because they didn’t have to. Turns out; that’s completely backwards. The plain girls don’t do it because they don’t have the opportunities and the hot ones do do it because they can.
    What Zach said: “Judging how many opportunities a woman has had is not hard. The hotter she is, the more she’s had”
    So, the hotter the girl (with few exceptions); the higher the N. The high school slut married the neurosurgeon because she was hot. The neurosurgeon isn’t interested in Plain Janes regardless of their number.

    Now, the plain girl that’s a slut is just throwing herself at anybody. That’s a mental issue and you want to stay FAR away from that.

    So, the insecure guys with the small weenies have been seeing the top 20% of girls slutting around with the top 10% of the guys (which they aren’t) while they aren’t getting any. So, they try to feel better about themselves by pretending not to be interested and calling them “sluts”. I expect that I’m a bit anti-manosphere as far as this goes. Being “the best sexual partner” a woman has had isn’t much to feel proud of if you’ve never had any competition. And, as J said “A lot n=1 women quit on their husbands”. Probably because they have a feeling that there must be more to it than that.

    Not that a really high N is a good thing. It could indicate mental issues and you might have to send her through a de-licing chamber before the first date.

    Now I understand that this is about “what is” rather than “what should be”, but I think Daphne’s advice “If the man insists on hearing your number, then he’s probably an insecure tool you should consider dumping” would be good to follow.

    The answer to Lokland’s question “If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe?” is provided by Oz “the solution is to sleep only with men whom you really, really want to”.

  • JP

    “To me it looks rather very much cultural… Subconconscious puritan stains anyone?”

    Well, just like everybody else, we Americans are trying to be perfectly compliant with the moral order.

    Remember, sainthood is everyone’s goal here. Arguing about things like N and restrictiveness just confuses the conversation and causes hurt feelings and ultimately moral chaos and destruction.

    If we all worked together and kept our eyes on the ball, we could completely eliminate all pre-marital sex and get the divorce rate down to 0%.

  • Richard Aubrey

    It appears, as the red pill people tell the blue-pillers, “You may not like it, but it is what it is.”

  • Lokland

    @Damien

    “Exactly. Well put. Any man with enough experience with women reaches the same conclusion at some point.”

    You’ve made one mistake in your analysis. Most men don’t typically get a lot of experience with woman. Average N of 6 or 8 I believe.

    Whether or not thats enough to stop caring is obviously up for debate but I’ll put forward the idea that N is largely a matter of more (especially in the lower reaches).

    Since most average woman date average men it would be incorrect to apply a standard of what is acceptable for those men who have ‘enough’ experience to the majority.

    This of course is all contingent upon what constitutes enough experience to stop caring.

  • J

    i>every other male in any potential situation is that it will likely turn out negative.

    I don’t think I was saying that as much as I was saying that having a virgin is no guarantee of happily ever after.

    High N, bad.–That’s a fair assessment of my position.
    Low N, bad.–No, just not a guarantee in the sense that a lot of guys think it will be. My cousin who married as a virgin cheated on her husband left and right before the divorce, but the vast majority of low and medium n women I know have been faithful. I’m saying that it’s sort of a crap shoot and that character superceeds virginity as a predictor of future behavior.
    Medium N, bad.–Not sure where you are getting this from.

    Just curious if you could foresee a scenario with both a higher likely hood of happiness than misery and that it was reasonably attainable?

    Indeed I do, when two people of good character marry. If you were to look over what I’ve posted here and elsewhere in the ‘sphere for the past couple of years, you’d see that I’m big on the importance of good character, which may or may not be associated with prior sexual experience.

  • Oz

    Commentors like Remo who attribute some sort of “purity” to virginity due to religious observation really throw the topic askew. The vast majority of parents are not telling their teens that sex before marriage is a sin. They are telling them to be careful and use protection.

    While its of course rationale, even natural, for us to be wary of people who “chew up and spit out” sexual partners as if they were as common as bubble gum, as one commenter feared about her husband’s past, the vast majority of us are not religiously observant nor do we attribute any sort of mystical purity to virginity or consider pre-marital sex to be sinful.

    So between the chewing up and spitting out and virginal purity, there is an entire spectrum of normal, healthy human sexuality.

  • Ion

    Lokland, regarding sexual kinkiness, likability, etc., I said in my comment They are good skills but what seems to be missing are:

    “think your mistaking attraction vs. comfort traits (in the same way that beta and alpha traits are mixed for men).”

    Probably. It’s like the skills that show dominance for men are 1. have options 2. be extremely good looking 3. be extremely good at making the first move. Additional skills should be 1. not a cad. 2. not a cad. 3. not a cad, but if the wrong things are prioritized first, then the deck will fall. It’s not “mens wiry biology” to crave unrestricted women, men now value what unrestricted women can bring to the table in the beginning.

    “Hate to break it to the ladies but getting the girlfriend label is not really profound. I handed it out quite liberally and it never meant more than exclusive until I feel like it.”

    I agree with you about the girlfriend label. It’s hard to hear, but yeah. It’s a monogamous sex label, it doesn’t mean you’re decent enough to marry (if you’re lucky, it’s marriage with the extended prequel).

    kp

    “(being 6′ tall, well developed and looking 20 since I was 12 and unable to handle the attention propelled my way on a daily basis was the major reason for the abstinence)”

    Whoa, I can totally empathize being 6’1. Boobs are almost always associated with promiscuity. And height is associated with “looking older” (my 5’1 bff is a teacher and walks around with a bookbag, everyone swears he’s in middle school). Not to mention the constant staring from men regardless of background (it’s never been my experience that men ignore tall women), they may approach a more petite 10 more, but they still approach often enough. It was uncomfortable to handle at 12, and it’s uncomfortable now.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    Yet, the ‘sphere’s advice to men is that if a woman doesn’t put out after three dates, she’s out. Both of those positions can’t simultaneously be correct. How does the ‘sphere characterize stuff like that? Oh yeah, fried ice! That’s my point.

    No, it makes perfect sense. The sexes are at cross-purposes in this SMP. So, advice to females is not always going to be compatible with advice to males. In this case, the manosphere tells women to play hard to get, while telling men to filter out the women who play hard to get.

  • SayWhaat

    You’ve made one mistake in your analysis. Most men don’t typically get a lot of experience with woman. Average N of 6 or 8 I believe.

    I may not be representative on this matter, but I still think 6-8 is a lot. : /

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I don’t think so. I have no idea whether they will get divorced, but Nancy has taken responsibility – at least give her that much. She does regret the casual sex.

    You know how betas gripe because they were lied to about what women find attractive?

    As someone who came of age in the 70s I can assure you that women were lied to about what men find attractive, or in this case, unattractive. In addition, we have many men offering reassurance that “I’ll respect you in the morning.” I know from my own focus groups that young women are genuinely surprised guys care about this issue as much as they do. I’ve seen women get devastated when some guy with a high N balked at their 10-20 number. They never saw it coming.

    This really clicked with me. I don’t hate Nancy. I feel sorry for her. I hate the slut-acceptance movement not because I want to be free to rail against sluts as so many in the manosphere movement seem to be wanting to do. I hate the slut-acceptance movement precisely because it causes women like Nancy to get lied to about what men want. And that’s a tragedy.

  • Jim

    He should have dumped her ass.

  • Oz

    “yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce.”

    “Wow, I don’t understand why people are demonizing Nancy. She shared her story to vindicate the male opinion, and took responsibility for the fallout that she acknowledges she caused. She obviously loves her husband and has been honest so that other women don’t make the same mistakes. Yes, she originally lied to her husband but she came clean and he chose to marry her.

    The harsh judgment and superiority of some here is really over the top. Disappointed.”

    Remo wrote that. He also wrote that Nancy was dishonoring her husband by not being a virgin when she married him. Like I said, the uber religious minority skew the convo for the rest majority of us who hold healthy, moderate views of human sexuality.

    “If we all worked together and kept our eyes on the ball, we could completely eliminate all pre-marital sex and get the divorce rate down to 0%.”

    You’ve got be joking. I hope.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “I don’t think I was saying that as much as I was saying that having a virgin is no guarantee of happily ever after.”

    I see and I agree. Though I don’t think anyone suggested a guarantee merely a much higher likelihood (and for that there is stats).

    “Medium N, bad.–Not sure where you are getting this from.”

    Drew an inference from available data.

    “when two people of good character marry.”

    Makes sense. Point understood. Thank you.

  • taterearl

    “The vast majority of us are not religiously observant nor do we attribute any sort of mystical purity to virginity or consider pre-marital sex to be sinful.”

    Well pre-marital sex is a sin…called fornication. Morality is not based off a democracy.

  • J

    No, it makes perfect sense. The sexes are at cross-purposes in this SMP. So, advice to females is not always going to be compatible with advice to males. In this case, the manosphere tells women to play hard to get, while telling men to filter out the women who play hard to get.

    The issue is that it’s the same women being told, “Give it up, but if you do, you’re a slut.” I’d shoot myself in the head if I weren’t safely out of this SMP.

    And BTW if I haven’t said this before, I think that you are lucky to have some access to some more traditional options.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    I may not be representative on this matter, but I still think 6-8 is a lot. : /

    It is. Mean =/= median. Median for guys is probably around 3 or so. For college guys, I believe it’s 1.

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    “I may not be representative on this matter, but I still think 6-8 is a lot. : /”

    Honest question, is your boyfriend above or below that line.
    I suspect most of the N=3 people end up with each other and vice versa up and down the chain.

    What we are talking about (price discrimination) is probably more of a rarity than a commonality.

    So, the guys, myself included, who don’t want high N are not likely to actually ever have to make such a choice.

  • Ion

    “So it seems we’re all talking over each other’s heads here, using terms like “slutty” and “restricted” and all of us having entirely different ideas what these things mean in our own heads.”

    True. I didn’t mean the teen was slutty, I meant the partner of 50 example I’ve been using (or even 2o+) is definitely slutty. I’ve already said 3-5 partners is fine, plus or minus. But it’s all relative. To me a 30 yr old guy with a partner count of 8+ is a whore.. so yea, it depends on who you ask.

    half the girls living the “Sex and the City” NYC revolving door lifestyle look just like the star of Girls, really (or like Carrie Bradshaw, some are even 40 lbs heavier, some are even older). Men have a tendency to believe there are lots of really pretty women, when pretty women are noticeable, so what they see is subjective. The reason for alphas success is their lack of standards for STR. So any girl can rack up a number if she’s not careful, pretty or not pretty.

    Saying promiscuity is caused by attractiveness is like saying that the 80% of girls who are restricted are basically sluts who have no options. And I disagree with that.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ” I hope this post did not come across as my suggesting that men need to evolve away from this feeling.”

    IMHO, I was surprised to see you post something so obviously conservative in nature.

    I realize you did it for the younger ladies in the crowd and it hopefully helps them out but as a guy its quite nice to be told what we want/desire is not evil/immoral.

  • JP

    I don’t even know what the male opinion is, to tell you the truth.

    Granted, it never occurred to me that I was supposed to be trying to have sex, or that I was supposed to sexually escalate things and be rebuffed, either.

  • JP

    “And within those religious groups, many “virgins” have used the butthole loophole.”

    I always thought that was supposed to be *worse* than pre-marital sex.

  • Lokland

    @Susan
    “In general, my stance on evolution is that we are today as close to perfect as we’ve ever been, that there are good reasons for our instincts, and that we should respect them.”

    And then I got to this paragraph.

    Face palm.

    Evolution is not capable of perfection. It is always lagging behind selection by at least one generation. It also is non-directive, if the direction of selection changes so to does evolution.

    What was perfect for our grandparents will not be perfect for our grandchildren.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Evolution is not capable of perfection. It is always lagging behind selection by at least one generation. It also is non-directive, if the direction of selection changes so to does evolution.

      What was perfect for our grandparents will not be perfect for our grandchildren.

      Haha, I knew you’d call me out on that. What I was really trying to say was that we’ve evolved for reasons that have presumably led to maximum reproductive success, at least thus far. I have little patience for suggestions that we should quell this or that instinct, or evolve in a different direction. It makes no sense.

  • J

    Though I don’t think anyone suggested a guarantee merely a much higher likelihood (and for that there is stats).

    I’ve seen the stuff that Social Pathologist was touting and that’s been repeated on various ‘sphere blogs. I think it’s skewed by the fact that virgins of both sexes these days tend to from be very traditional or religious backgrounds and therefore are less likely to divorce. On the one hand, they may have been brought up with a skill set that most of us don’t have. And even they have no guarantee of happiness, they just are more prone to try to tough out the rough patches.

    “Medium N, bad.–Not sure where you are getting this from.” Drew an inference from available data.

    Well, I don’t think that. The vast majority of people these days are medium N, and they seem to exhibit a wide range of behavior.

  • JP

    “I realize you did it for the younger ladies in the crowd and it hopefully helps them out but as a guy its quite nice to be told what we want/desire is not evil/immoral.”

    Yes, but how did you get to the point where you knew what you wanted/desired in this context?

  • INTJ

    @ J

    The issue is that it’s the same women being told, “Give it up, but if you do, you’re a slut.” I’d shoot myself in the head if I weren’t safely out of this SMP.

    Who’s saying “give it up”? Some manosphere guys say they will dump her if she doesn’t put out early enough. Girls should not be looking to date those guys anyways… I think the message from the manosphere to girls is a pretty consistent message to take things slow sexually.

    And BTW if I haven’t said this before, I think that you are lucky to have some access to some more traditional options.

    Yup. Unfortunately, the traditional options are a lot more limited than I’d like. Kinda feel jealous about my friends in India who get to complain about dating culture and actually have a good alternative…

  • SayWhaat

    Honest question, is your boyfriend above or below that line.
    I suspect most of the N=3 people end up with each other and vice versa up and down the chain.

    It’s a personal matter, and not mine to share. I will say that I am resigned to be always dating a guy whose N outpaces mine, seeing as how I got such a late start in the game.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “Evolution is not capable of perfection. It is always lagging behind selection by at least one generation. It also is non-directive, if the direction of selection changes so to does evolution.”

    She’s brought some sort of guided evolution metaphysic into this.

    Meaning that she has a telos, because you can’t have perfection without a telos.

  • Oz

    “The harsh judgment and superiority of some here is really over the top. Disappointed.”

    “I’m sorry, did you take a wrong turn and think this was Dalrock’s? Or Rollo’s? I’m warming up my delete finger now.”

    Susan if I may, its because you write things like this,

    “I don’t think this was aimed at me, but for the record I find the male aversion to prior female sexual experience completely understandable and justified. I hope this post did not come across as my suggesting that men need to evolve away from this feeling. ”

    This causes the religious nuts to think you are similarly religious and nutty. They carry one concept of “unrestricted” in their mind while you carry an entirely different one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This causes the religious nuts to think you are similarly religious and nutty. They carry one concept of “unrestricted” in their mind while you carry an entirely different one.

      How is that possible, when I’m widely regarded in the sphere as some sort of Slutwitch?

  • Lokland

    @J

    “I’ve seen the stuff that Social Pathologist was touting and that’s been repeated on various ‘sphere blogs.”

    Who-da-who?
    Not involved or in any way interested in reading the sphere.
    Divorce and a few other human habits are of great interest to me and I’ve been doing my own research for some time.

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    Saying promiscuity is caused by attractiveness is like saying that the 80% of girls who are restricted are basically sluts who have no options. And I disagree with that.

    While true for girls, this is debatable for guys. Ironically, restricted guys don’t have options precisely because restrictedness is unattractive in males.

  • J

    I’m sorry, did you take a wrong turn and think this was Dalrock’s?

    Did you see his latest? He apparently thinks an attempt by Sesame Street to alleviate the fears of kids with divorcing parents is part of a conspiracy to sell divorce to kids.

    I do think it’s a shame that this is such a widespread issue that Sesame Street needs to deal with it, but “selling divorce”? Really?

  • Lokland

    @JP

    “Meaning that she has a telos, because you can’t have perfection without a telos.”

    I thought that was the iPhone.

  • SayWhaat

    Also INTJ I know the difference between mean and median, thank you very much!

  • Damien Vulaume

    @JP
    we Americans are trying to be perfectly compliant with the moral order.
    Remember, sainthood is everyone’s goal here

    Moral order greatly varies from one culture to another, even between the western world. I’ll also point out that if I view a particular moral order as flawed, you can damned be sure I won’t abide to it by any means. I’m not religious in the least, but the only one I try to respect is the Decalog. Although I could bend some of those laws in the name of love…
    As for sainthood, that is a goal beyond me, as I’m a flawed human being like everybody else. It’s a bit as if I’d also hope to have a tangible proof of god during my lifetime. I know I never will.
    @Lockland
    You’ve made one mistake in your analysis. Most men don’t typically get a lot of experience with woman. Average N of 6 or 8 I believe.
    No, what I mean is that if more guys had the possibility/gut/chance/interest or whatever it is to have more experience with decent girls, this would change their mentality and opinions about women on many aspects.

  • Lokland

    @JP

    “Yes, but how did you get to the point where you knew what you wanted/desired in this context?”

    Gut reactions can be quite powerful. Mine pretty much refused even most normal forms of social behaviour (which tend to be highly masculine, so not really surprising).

    Just took me 2-3 years to figure out that my stomach knew what was what.

  • J

    The Scial Pathologist (http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/) is a popular blogger. His dissection of some stats on virginity and the divorce rate took the ‘sphere by storm.

    Going to go cook dinner, such as it is. DH and I are dieting. Yuck.

  • JP

    ” Ironically, restricted guys don’t have options precisely because restrictedness is unattractive in males.”

    Really?

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “Gut reactions can be quite powerful. Mine pretty much refused even most normal forms of social behaviour (which tend to be highly masculine, so not really surprising).

    Just took me 2-3 years to figure out that my stomach knew what was what.”

    I don’t have the slightest idea what exactly you are saying here.

  • Lokland

    @Damien

    “what I mean is that if more guys had the possibility/gut/chance/interest or whatever it is to have more experience with decent girls, this would change their mentality and opinions about women on many aspects.”

    I agree but this isn’t going to happen.
    In which case their either wrong for feeling a gut reaction to sluts or their not.

    You could argue they should just deal with it, I would argue its unacceptable to force them too.

    Also, the reason they don’t have that experience is due to lack of attractiveness and/or effort.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Also INTJ I know the difference between mean and median, thank you very much!

    I never meant to imply otherwise. I meant that you were correct that the typical males have a lower N, and that the discrepancy in Lokland’s cited statistic was due to him using mean N, which is not really applicable to the average guy, who is better represented by the median.

  • OffTheCuff

    Just: “is there a PJ in the house, by any chance?”

    A multi-handle assault, filled with multiple fake stories. It’s as bad as I’ve ever seen it.

  • Remo

    Oz – Commentors like Remo who attribute some sort of “purity” to virginity due to religious observation really throw the topic askew. The vast majority of parents are not telling their teens that sex before marriage is a sin. They are telling them to be careful and use protection.

    Oz my religious beliefs are irrelevant to this mans feelings. I brought up religion to show that the topic itself was an old one, not just something made up by men or bloggers in the last 2 years. Obviously he didn’t require the girl be a virgin, or if he did decided to set it aside. He had some ideal number in his head and she is past it to the point that he obsesses about it. Will this get better? Probably not. Do I hope it does? Sure but why would it?

    Susan – the blurb about shaming him into it was written because this happened to several people I know at my old Church using the justifications mirrored by others here. Entire sermons were written on this topic of shaming men to marry high count girls as some sort of divine duty. Obviously I don’t go there anymore.

    For the annul vs. divorce option – I am no religious expert – I simply injected religion to show the topic of female purity/low count/whatever term you want to use mattered way back when. I suppose you could argue why this is the case but not that it was the case. I considered it a matter of honor as small tribes means possibly meeting and talking with someone who bedded your wife maybe on a daily basis – which many men don’t enjoy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      Susan – the blurb about shaming him into it was written because this happened to several people I know at my old Church using the justifications mirrored by others here. Entire sermons were written on this topic of shaming men to marry high count girls as some sort of divine duty

      That does sound pretty wacked, but I don’t think this is common in more secular communities. We have no reason to suspect Nancy and her husband are religious, and I see no evidence at all that she would divorce him or take advantage of him in any way. She clearly loves him and loathes herself – calling herself damaged goods. I think it’s actually a very sad story. I wish they had not married, that’s the weirdest part of the story to me.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    INTJ,
    No, there’s no irony. It’s perfectly consistent to say that first impressions are not reliable indicators of promiscuity while also saying that promiscuity is a good indicator of unreliableness (in both sexes).

    That’s a good way of putting it.

    ————————-

    Susan,
    The exact same instinct that makes men recoil at the thought of women with a lot of sexual experience judges women based on how quickly they have sex. Yes, guys want a woman to be easy to get just for them. But there’s no easy way of knowing the facts. I’ve heard plenty of guys here say that they’ll go for it if she allows sex, but when they like a girl, they’re actually hoping she says no in the early days.

    I understand that guys worried about price discrimination feel strongly that a woman needs to have sex quickly to insure against that. The problem with that strategy is that when it works, all you’ve proven is that a potentially promiscuous woman was promiscuous with you too. That’s no bueno for a LTR. You need a strategy that proves (or at least makes you confident) that the woman has applied the same standard of waiting consistently.

    That’s just….crazy. Whatever happened to being honest and upfront about your values and deal breakers?

    I’ve heard plenty of guys here say that they’ll go for it if she allows sex, but when they like a girl, they’re actually hoping she says no in the early days.

    That doesn’t make any sense! In fact, it makes as much sense as a girl asking someone if a dress she’s wearing makes her look fat even though she’s expecting the answer to be “no”.

  • Oz

    “Saying promiscuity is caused by attractiveness is like saying that the 80% of girls who are restricted are basically sluts who have no options. And I disagree with that.”

    So do I. And if I caused you to believe I think “promiscuity is caused by attractiveness” that is not what I think.

    What I think is based on what I see/experience and it is the following;

    Pretty girls get more attention from guys. They have a wider range to select for boyfriends. They select, begin relationships and thus have “relationship sex” more often than girls who do not have a wide range and certainly more than girls who have no range at all.

    The thin pretty teen neighbor I described has a higher N at 16 (all relationship sex mind you) then I had at 26. I was a chubby teen and it wasn’t until I slimmed down that even average looking guys gave me the time of day, in my 20s.

    I see it all the time. The above average attractive women are never without boyfriends unless they choose to “take a break”, and then they still have suitors. Its not so with average women, and is completely foreign territory for below average women. 3 entirely different dating cultures or “sexual markets” if you will.

  • Remo

    @Remo

    If he could have gotten a virgin as good as you (or found a virgin AT ALL these days) he would have done so.

    “This is simply not true. Outside very religious groups, virginity is not valued in women. And within those religious groups, many “virgins” have used the butthole loophole.

    Virginity only will be appreciated when there is no premarital sex, and when marriage occurs about 10 years earlier than it does today.”

    This doesn’t logically follow. If a lower count woman is more desirable then by definition virginity has more value than a 1,2,4, etc. count woman. I sincerely doubt after meeting her and finding out she is a virgin he would break it off. Back when female slaves were openly sold virgins commanded higher prices (and still do today in less policed parts of the world).

    True the butth*le loophole sounds pretty nasty but I assume she’d lie about it? Dunno.

  • JP

    “Susan – the blurb about shaming him into it was written because this happened to several people I know at my old Church using the justifications mirrored by others here. Entire sermons were written on this topic of shaming men to marry high count girls as some sort of divine duty. Obviously I don’t go there anymore.”

    You seriously heard sermons about marrying high count girls?

    Which denomination?

    (This is funny, to me.)

  • Oz

    “My guess is that they haven’t discussed sexual history and won’t either, which seems to be the norm these days. Maybe this is my European background speaking, but over here, the ‘slut shaming’ seems like a bit of a lost cause.”

    Indeed. Western Europeans think Americans are uptight, prudish and puritanical.

    “Interesting. I think the discussion of sexual history is still very common in the U.S. In fact, I’d say it’s standard practice. For the record, this is new within the last generation. No one asked for that information in the 80s or before.”

    OK Susan, what do you think changed between the 80s and now?

  • Lokland

    @JP

    I had a big long story typed out but lets keep it simple.
    I was raised to be socially quite liberal and morally quite conservative (sex was amoral).

    I spent 17-19 trying to do things that did not gel with my personality. I still can’t look at weed and/or coke without feeling a serious guilt trip. Same with binge drinking.

    During that time I came to associate slutty clothing/demeanour, drugs and booze with highly unrestricted women. Any one of those about a woman tends to set up a literal guilty feeling in my guy (literally in my stomach) and kills any type of attraction.

    After that I made new friends and found different women. We partied and had a good time but they were significantly more ‘good’ or aligned to the light instead of the dark.
    A lot of these women were no to low N. Sex within the group(s) was relatively unheard of and most people were in relationships (either in or out of groups).
    They gel’d with my personality much better.

  • OffTheCuff

    DV: “To me it looks rather very much cultural… Subconconscious puritan stains anyone?”

    Dont forget that fornication is “evil”. I was raised Lutheran, and based on your stories… apparently you were lucky enough to either not be raised Christian, or if you were, it was a wink-wink-don’t-have-sex-lol sort of Christianity, rather than the eternal-damnation type. I am jealous of the male role models and advise you have had, would have spared me years of pain.

    Say: “I may not be representative on this matter, but I still think 6-8 is a lot.”

    6 is male median, but maybe not in your age bracket. What’s opera boy’s N? Does it creep you?

  • Oz

    “So even if she has an N of 15, you may be in the lucky .1% who gets there. With a moderately attractive girl, you may be one of 10% of the guys. I know where I’d rather be, and it has nothing to do with absolute N.”

    “Zach’s attitude is not unusual among men who are themselves very sexually successful. The higher the male N, the more lenient his views on female N, at least among Millennials.”

    But you said above that today’s generation is more conservative about this than yours.

    Anyway, Zach’s attitude is common. Nobody holds “relationship sex” against an attractive woman. In fact, its expected that if a woman is attractive that she will have had boyfriends, relationships and relationship sex. Nobody expects a 26 year old HB8 to be a virgin or carrier of the N2 card.

    Like I said above, if you see an attractive woman without a boyfriend, its due to choice. She’s not an incel.

  • Iggles

    @ SayWhat, Ion:

    “There’s still the matter of getting used to a new partner, and that is something an STR girl might be more used to (“OMGOMG there it is!!” vs. “Whelp, another penis.”). ”

    Haha yep! You and Iggles are right. Unfortunately some men read the early stages of awkwardness as “red flags” and “lacking chemistry”. I dislike the word “chemistry” btw, narcissists, alphas, unrestricted girls, etc., have incredible “chemistry” with everyone, because they’re likeable and experienced. “Chemistry” is not a word that applies with some introverts, and two awkward introverts or a restricted girl/beta guy might have a crappy/awkward first date and not know how to progress, but are compatible long term.

    Good point. And yeah, we’re all on the same page!

    Re: the slutty debate,

    I think slutty is relative to age. Having 15 partners at the age of 22 is slutty IMO. Having 15 partners at 60 is not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      I think slutty is relative to age. Having 15 partners at the age of 22 is slutty IMO. Having 15 partners at 60 is not.

      That is excellent news! My partner/year ratio has been steadily declining while I’ve been married these 28 years! Next time one of these guys calls me a slut for hitting double digits, I’ll point out that I’ve only had sex with one third of a man per year!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Cocky men are almost always manwhores, or trying to be.

    Awwww, don’t tell the girls that. I am screwed if I ever leave my current SO!

  • Remo

    Hi JP

    “You seriously heard sermons about marrying high count girls?

    Which denomination?

    (This is funny, to me.)”

    Yes – Methodist and Episcopalian and the bent was pretty much what you expect. Born again virgins that sort of thing. Most of the “sharing” stories in the Episcopalian church had women coming up to the pulpit, admitting some very high count number, talking about how they were clean now (Jesus cures herpes?), then returning to their husbands in the pews. Quite the spectacle.

  • Oz

    JP January 22, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    ” Ironically, restricted guys don’t have options precisely because restrictedness is unattractive in males.”

    “Really?”

    To an extent. It depends on the type of restrictedness. If he’s hot and choosing to refrain because he hasn’t “met his equal” yet, no problem. Likewise if he’s hot and religious, the equally religiously restricted girls in his community will respect it.

    Now, if he’s not hot and an incel, that’s unattractive. If he’s not hot, an incel and then “gets religion” as a reason to justify his non-hot incelitude and adopts a bitter, jealous attitude toward sexually active people, that’s a quadruple lady boner killer.

    This is not a double standard.
    Like I outlined in #195, low or no N in women is not a value in itself either.

  • Anne

    @Oz
    “Indeed. Western Europeans think Americans are uptight, prudish and puritanical.”
    It’s not so much “uptight” as it’s just very odd.
    The overall impression is that the US has a very difficult relationship with sexuality. When I was in Miami a while ago, I learned that while you cannot tan topless, you can basically do everything else to look like a porn star. There were women wearing itsy bitsy bikinis and HEELS by the poolside. Talk about sexualizing swimwear!
    That is my impression of the US: cleavage, sideboob and underboob but no nipple. At least topless is natural.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “I spent 17-19 trying to do things that did not gel with my personality. I still can’t look at weed and/or coke without feeling a serious guilt trip. Same with binge drinking.

    During that time I came to associate slutty clothing/demeanour, drugs and booze with highly unrestricted women. Any one of those about a woman tends to set up a literal guilty feeling in my guy (literally in my stomach) and kills any type of attraction.”

    What exactly do you mean by “socially quite liberal and morally quite conservative (sex was amoral).”?

    I never had enough experience with anything related to sex/drugs/rock and roll so to speak to really get a gut reaction to anything like that. Plus, it never even occurred to me that there really was such a thing as “unrestricted women”.

    Drinking was never a problem for me, in the sense that I viewed it as a problem of any kind. I *avoided* binge drinking because I figured out that it was not kind in the morning, but it was never on my “never list”, where pot/coke/swearing ended up.

    With respect to morality, I simply took the idealist approach and completely disregarded human nature. I was by nature a perfectionist and simply wanted to avoid doing anything “wrong” so to speak.

    I really don’t know what “gels with my personality”.

  • Oz

    “But a lot of women offer ONS, and the men we’d love to date are taking the offer.”

    So you’re complaining because you’d “love to date” men who have ONSs? So either date them or change your preferences in men.

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    I’m honestly having difficulty understanding where N is a factor at all here. She could have said “a socialist” (where politics was the issue) and the story would have read exactly the same.

    imho, part of the disconnect is porting one issue into another — they’re squeaking b/c we’ve an apples-to-oranges issue.

  • doomwolf

    @ Remo

    I assume you grew up in the states – can I ask which region? I’ve never heard of that kind of thing happening in my area (eastern Ontario). Not to say that it hasn’t, just that 99% of the people here would have a WFF?! reaction to that kind of service.

  • JP

    “Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.

    No it was not.”

    I already said that I misread it.

    Feel free to delete my factually incorrect comment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      I already said that I misread it.

      Feel free to delete my factually incorrect comment.

      My bad, I’m trying to catch up and failing miserably. I did not correctly anticipate that this thread would blow up on a day when I was quite busy elsewhere.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    On the issue of slut tells:

    Most of the people I have met in the recent past assume I some sort of “player” and that my girlfriend was a “virgin” before meeting me.

    I do not correct them of this, because it’s not my business, but I find it amusing.

    I don’t feel the need to defend my choices to the N-apologists. I have nothing to say to you besides that it is my choice who to let into my life and trying to shame me on this front will get you nowhere.

    On the subject of guys being hypocrites and accepting high-N girls:
    There’s a reason I am with her. I have incredibly high standards, and she’s the only girl who has ever come close to meeting them, and actually wants to meet them.

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Btw, you’ve linked to the wrong post. Nancy’s comments were under The Essential Truth…

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Lockland
    I agree but this isn’t going to happen.
    In which case their either wrong for feeling a gut reaction to sluts or their not.
    You could argue they should just deal with it, I would argue its unacceptable to force them too.

    I agree with that as well. It’s not gonna happen, neither should those guys be forced into it, as you put it. I view this as a vicious circle, for it will make them overlook the “real girls” among the crowd amidst the ball and will make them focus on the obvious slutty and or bitchy ones. One thing that always fascinated me was that some of the most “sentimentally” well intentioned guys at a young age at some point almost always fell for the more than obvious, pseudo pretty (the panda looking type as Bastiat put it) girls with an even more obvious bitchy look in their eyes. I’m not even talking about the actions or words or the said sluts.
    The great “drame” at a very young age, is that we tend to think at the zipper level more than at the heart and head level.

  • doomwolf

    @ Susan

    Reference the ‘false pretences’, I think what happened was that someone mis-read your article and assumed that the truth came out after the wedding (which is not, in fact the case). Further commentators took the story from there, not the article itself, resulting in an erroneous feedback loop.

    http://xkcd.com/978/

  • Oz

    “The overall impression is that the US has a very difficult relationship with sexuality. When I was in Miami a while ago, I learned that while you cannot tan topless, you can basically do everything else to look like a porn star. There were women wearing itsy bitsy bikinis and HEELS by the poolside. Talk about sexualizing swimwear!
    That is my impression of the US: cleavage, sideboob and underboob but no nipple. At least topless is natural.”

    LOL. That’s because going topless would actually bust the illusion that the boobs are otherwise high and bouncy. The only reason its illegal is because men don’t want to see saggy boobs.

  • JP

    “Dont forget that fornication is “evil”. I was raised Lutheran, and based on your stories… apparently you were lucky enough to either not be raised Christian, or if you were, it was a wink-wink-don’t-have-sex-lol sort of Christianity, rather than the eternal-damnation type. I am jealous of the male role models and advise you have had, would have spared me years of pain.”

    It seemed to me to be pretty clear in church (Lutheran) that fornication = evil and that you were to avoid evil at all costs. Also, avoid oral sex because oral sex = evil.

    Of course, homosexual sex = evil as well.

    I was also pretty anti-Catholic in those days, too.

    Good times.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course, homosexual sex = evil as well.

      Oh good, I can now share my funny story from last night. Our family went out to dinner to celebrate my son’s 26th birthday. He was in the men’s room, washing his hands, when he looked up in the mirror to see two very satisfied looking males emerge from one stall together.

  • Iggles

    @ SayWhaat:

    It’s a personal matter, and not mine to share. I will say that I am resigned to be always dating a guy whose N outpaces mine, seeing as how I got such a late start in the game.

    Same here!
    The late start was due to being restricted/selective. I lost my V at 20. If I had done so earlier, I’m still sure my N would be low since casual sex and casual relationships do not appeal to me at all.

    That said, after my last LTR ended I acknowledged my partner will have a higher N (we were each others first). I don’t find it to be an issue, though it’s ironic. Bf was reading the Karma Sutra in his mid-teens. I was watching Dawson’s Creek and discovering fan fiction at that age. We were in totally different places in terms of relationships. (Even so, he’s a restricted guy so we share the same views and values.)

  • Fist of Vulkan

    It’s posts like these that tend to make me somewhat irate. I understand that it’s 2013 and the women I choose to date will have a couple of notches on their bedpost. Fine. I accept that, but to be thankful that I’m #44 in line and I’d best be grateful that she “settled” on me? I call bullsh*t. I’ve noticed a trend in my life recently of women I knew from high school finding me on Facebook or bumping into me in the real world and wanting to date me, as if I don’t remember them treating me as if I didn’t exist or bestowing upon me the nuclear rejection. Bitches… Every last one of them. They don’t get happily ever after from me. Like I’m supposed to reward their poor decision making skills with my justly and honestly earned finances and stability? Where the hell do these women get off thinking the world is fair? Sorry princess, you’re just finding out what I’ve known since I hit puberty. Life sucks. Get a helmet.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Fist of Vulkan

      FWIW, I think you are correct in your attitude. You get the last laugh.

      When I attended my husband’s 25th high school reunion with him, there was one woman named Joan who had been the it girl in high school, very popular and attractive. Back then, she never knew my husband existed, or at least pretended she didn’t. At this reunion, she was all over him (ugh!) and asked if she might call him for some financial advice sometime. He looked at her and said, “No.” He and another guy – who had it even worse in high school but is now the DA in the area – had a good chuckle over the schadenfreude they both felt at this reunion.

  • Lokland

    @JP

    “What exactly do you mean by “socially quite liberal and morally quite conservative (sex was amoral).”?”

    Support the gays, financial support for the poor, increased public healthcare.
    Sex was kind of in the middle. Be safe, be careful, better with someone you love (btw useless advice for a 12 year old)
    Morally, don’t steal, be a ‘nice’ boy, don’t be a user, don’t be lazy. Essentially I was raised with religious values minus the Jesus and sex was cool but not something to be indulged in randomly/with too many people.

    TBH, I tend to pick and choose a left or right wing view for each individual topic instead of aligning with one side or the other (less of an issue with a more than two party system).

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I’m with you. When I read Nancy’s comment, I was surprised that they had gone ahead and gotten married during a period where this was clearly a major issue in the relationship. That strikes me as rather careless on both their parts.”

    I think that’s what started the “maybe he’s in the infatuation stage” of the relationship so he’s having too much fun to be concerned about the lack of trust and respect because He’s In Love!!!

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “I don’t think this was aimed at me…”
    Not at all. Just barking in my own echo chamber. :-)

  • Nk

    Having posted before on here about If I am to take the logic in these articles then I am screwed as my number is high. I have now got my ‘strategy’ down to this. I have a high number if a ltr guy has a problem with it he can walk away. It’s my past and I can’t do anything to change it. Having given in quickly, held out and done somewhere in the middle I now sleep with someone quickly if I don’t want a ltr with them or its obvious one won’t happen but I’m up for it. If a ltr is on the cards now I will make them wait so they understand that I’m taking the possibility seriously. If they are trying it persistently so early the. They are not taking you seriously.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a ltr is on the cards now I will make them wait so they understand that I’m taking the possibility seriously.

      Uh oh! Will the guys please disabuse Nk of this notion?

  • Oz

    Remo, “Now however he is stuck in a marriage with a woman who to his mind didn’t honor her vows, i.e. she can’t honor him with her body as so many others have been honored with it prior. ”

    Susan, “This doesn’t make sense to me. Where in the wedding vows does it specify “honoring with my body” and define that has never having had another partner?”

    Susan, I see you’re scrolling up backwards through the comments but Remo’s ridiculous Biblical commentary on Nancy’s marriage has already been addressed by myself and a few others here.
    Like I said, the religious nuts assume that you hold the same opinions they do simply because you attempt to address the “sexual market” and in all its glory and flaws.
    They assume you are pro-virgin marriage and possibly even virgin birth!

    Def Beta Guy,
    “On the subject of guys being hypocrites and accepting high-N girls:
    There’s a reason I am with her. I have incredibly high standards, and she’s the only girl who has ever come close to meeting them, and actually wants to meet them. ”

    Hello! What I’ve been saying all along. Low to no N in and of itself means NOTHING to most men. Relationships are contextual.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Nk must be a troll.

    If serious, are you fucking stupid?

    You realize good guys do not want to be punished for good guys, right? You are virtually guaranteeing every LTR you try to form is laden with resentment, or you will have to lie your ass off.

    And if the truth comes out, You. Are. FUCKED.

  • JP

    “Support the gays, financial support for the poor, increased public healthcare.
    Sex was kind of in the middle. Be safe, be careful, better with someone you love (btw useless advice for a 12 year old)
    Morally, don’t steal, be a ‘nice’ boy, don’t be a user, don’t be lazy. Essentially I was raised with religious values minus the Jesus and sex was cool but not something to be indulged in randomly/with too many people.”

    Here’s where I started:
    Fornication, gays, drugs = evil (combination parents and church)

    Give to the poor, don’t steal, give to the church. (combination parents and church)

    I don’t recall anything about being a user or lazy and I don’t think that sex was ever discussed in my household except to let me know that it existed when I was about 12 and that was that.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    friggin grammar

    be punished for BEING good guys*

  • Oz

    Lokland, “Support the gays, financial support for the poor, increased public healthcare.
    Sex was kind of in the middle. Be safe, be careful, better with someone you love (btw useless advice for a 12 year old)
    Morally, don’t steal, be a ‘nice’ boy, don’t be a user, don’t be lazy. Essentially I was raised with religious values minus the Jesus and sex was cool but not something to be indulged in randomly/with too many people.”

    Don’t know how old you are but currently all of the above are mainstream American views that most of today’s parents teach their kids.

  • Lokland

    @Damien

    “The great “drame” at a very young age, is that we tend to think at the zipper level more than at the heart and head level.”

    I’ll plus this +1 but it applies to your entire comment.
    Half the battle when young is figuring out what you want, the other half is finding someone who suits you and is what you want.

    I don’t fully understand the need to shame either side and if we did life would be fairly miserable. (My Aunt and Uncle, and cousins are uber, uber high N types. The rest of my family is fairly restricted. I cannot imagine removing them from the family for being different.) I do think the lying (in Nancy’s case) is unacceptable.

    I’m content with leaving the sluts over there and me over here.

    And I know I did exactly as you described when I was a teenager, young, growing up. Two brains, one blood supply.

  • JP

    “They assume you are pro-virgin marriage and possibly even virgin birth!”

    I thought Susan was Catholic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I thought Susan was Catholic.

      I am. Don’t mess with the BVM.

  • JP

    @Damien

    “The great “drame” at a very young age, is that we tend to think at the zipper level more than at the heart and head level.”

    I think I missed this part of life.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Why is it not linear?”

    Why would it be? So very few things are.

  • Oz

    ” Ironically, restricted guys don’t have options precisely because restrictedness is unattractive in males.”

    Why should restrictedness on its own be considered particularly attractive? Relationships are contextual.

  • Lokland

    @Oz

    “Don’t know how old you are but currently all of the above are mainstream American views that most of today’s parents teach their kids.”

    Pff. No, not compared to where I’m from. And as a kid, gay marriage was still illegal. It still is in parts of the US.

    Public healthcare, no…just no.

  • JP

    “I don’t fully understand the need to shame either side and if we did life would be fairly miserable. (My Aunt and Uncle, and cousins are uber, uber high N types. The rest of my family is fairly restricted. I cannot imagine removing them from the family for being different.)”

    Part of the issue is that when you think of high N = evil, that results in problems as you try to figure out how to eradicate the evil from the world.

    It’s not a live and let live, it’s more of a “find the criminals and rid civilization of them”.

    I think of it as a moral auto-immune disorder.

  • Oz

    ” Now I think to myself: it doesn’t make you any better to have a low N, it may be preferred but a man will ultimately be fine even if you have a moderate N (or a little above). The end result remains the same (you get the guy) instead now you get to have a little more fun along the way”

    “Don’t ignore that fact that their marriage is miserable.”

    But not necessarily because of Nancy’s number. Its miserable because of the reaction of her particular husband. To be certain there are men out there would wouldn’t have given a tinker in a hot toddy about it.

    The real issue is with lack of honesty and an mismatching in values.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Susan
    Extraversion is one of the best predictors of promiscuity, for both sexes.
    I think you’re making the confusion between extraversion and charisma here….
    @OffTheCuff
    I understand what you mean, as I lived in your country. But the fading influence of christianity in mine happened in a totally different and very rapid way. There are many historical/cultural factors involved into that.
    My grandfather was “culturally protestant” (and this is the historical minority in France i/e la nuit de la Saint barthelemy and onward) but he was not stained by ANY religious dogmatic principles when it came to viewing the interaction between men and women, nor my father was, etc. That’s quite cultural I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      I think you’re making the confusion between extraversion and charisma here….

      Hmmm. I’d wager that most charismatic individuals are extroverts.

  • Anne

    @Lokland
    It’s fair enough that it’s not linear, but that means this curve is completely unique to your personal opinion.
    Is 5 20% worse than 4? How much worse is 6 than 5? Where is the cutting off point where things get unacceptable?

  • JP

    “@Susan

    “Why is it not linear?”

    Why would it be? So very few things are.””

    Everything’s pretty much e and pi.

  • Remo

    Oz – not a religious nut but think what you want. I thought the point was to attempt to explain what is going through this guys head and why the N count matters at all. If you read above you’ll see that religion was brought into it to show that historically it matters but if I am instantly a bible thumper or koran thumper for doing this okay, I’ve been called stranger things. Onto a more serious question…

    “This doesn’t make sense to me. Where in the wedding vows does it specify “honoring with my body” and define that has never having had another partner?”

    Touche for the exact semantics. It does say love, *honor*, and cherish though and since marriage classically meant giving your bodies to one another exclusivity of this, i.e. never having given it to someone else or doing so a low of number of times, would be more honorable by logic. An honor isn’t an honor if everyone gets a prize. End of the day he obviously made a very bad mistake marrying a girl with a count higher than he is happier with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      End of the day he obviously made a very bad mistake marrying a girl with a count higher than he is happier with.

      Yeah, I agree with you there.

  • JP

    “My grandfather was “culturally protestant” (and this is the historical minority in France i/e la nuit de la Saint barthelemy and onward) but he was not stained by ANY religious dogmatic principles when it came to viewing the interaction between men and women, nor my father was, etc. That’s quite cultural I think.”

    I went through the early part of my life thinking that with respect to the *social and moral* order, you were *required* to use religious dogmatic principles to the exclusion of all else, but with respect to *science*, you used modern technology as your benchmark.

  • Lokland

    @Anne

    “It’s fair enough that it’s not linear, but that means this curve is completely unique to your personal opinion.”

    Of course. As evidenced by the tidbit that different men have different levels of acceptability.

    “Is 5 20% worse than 4? How much worse is 6 than 5? Where is the cutting off point where things get unacceptable?”

    Lets say a factor of 10 to keep it simple. 1 is 10x worse than 0, 2 is 10x worse than 1 (and 100x worse than 0).
    Jokes.

    Since I’ve never had to try and make a choice (my highest N partner was 5 and I cruised past that without a thought, my wife is N=1) its largely irrelevant.

  • JP

    “It does say love, *honor*, and cherish though and since marriage classically meant giving your bodies to one another exclusivity of this, i.e. never having given it to someone else or doing so a low of number of times, would be more honorable by logic. An honor isn’t an honor if everyone gets a prize. End of the day he obviously made a very bad mistake marrying a girl with a count higher than he is happier with.”

    I thought we pretty much threw out the meaning of the vows with no-fault divorce and the removal of the religious authority from marriage.

    Vows are really only binding if you can’t break them without severe sanction like ex-communication or something like that.

  • Oz

    Remo, N matters to me too and I’m not religious. I would not want to have sex with a man who put his penis in 50 vaginas previous to me because of the high STD risk. However that is not what you are arguing. You were arguing on clearly religious grounds, “honor” “purity” “virginity” etc.

    “Don’t know how old you are but currently all of the above are mainstream American views that most of today’s parents teach their kids.”

    “Pff. No, not compared to where I’m from.”

    Where are you from?

    ” And as a kid, gay marriage was still illegal. It still is in parts of the US.”

    Even still, its mainstream to support the right to gay marriage.

    “Public healthcare, no…just no.”

    Many Americans say “yes…just yes”.

  • VD

    I would adjust it slightly in the sense that of the young women I’ve known, those at 3 or under in their 20s do not lie. They know that puts them in restricted territory, and few guys will object.

    Conceded. Other than the genuinely religious girls, many of whom married as virgins, I don’t think I ever met anyone who even claimed a number that low.

    I’ve seen women get devastated when some guy with a high N balked at their 10-20 number. They never saw it coming.

    Ah, but there is such an easy solution!

    High N guys almost always wind up with high N women. For one thing, those are the only women they’ve spent time with for most of their adult lives. For another, for a lot of those guys, 20 is rounding error.

    And she nails it! You see, you shouldn’t be castigating those handsome, charming, men who are on a first name basis with the cute lady doctor at the clinic. They are the solution to the problem! They forgive those poor devastated young women. Their shoulders are ready for the crying.

    Did you see his latest? He apparently thinks an attempt by Sesame Street to alleviate the fears of kids with divorcing parents is part of a conspiracy to sell divorce to kids. I do think it’s a shame that this is such a widespread issue that Sesame Street needs to deal with it, but “selling divorce”? Really?

    He’s right. And yes, really.

    No, women are increasingly judging promiscuous men, there’s a lot of evidence to that effect. However, the N has to be pretty high in most cases. (25+, I’d say.)

    I know you believe this and observe the posturing, but judging is not the same thing as turning down. I have never known any man with an N over 50 to fail to eventually score with anyone but a strongly religious girl on the sole basis of his high N. I’m sure it happens, but let’s be realistic, women are not exactly famous for the perfect harmony between their words and actions. It’s not like the girl who comes over after her bachelorette party or cheats on her boyfriend without even exchanging names is actually telling anyone the truth about what she is really up to.

    One of the things that women most love about players is that they can be trusted to a) keep their mouths shut, and, b) not cause problems afterward. They are, oddly enough, safe in a way that most men are not. They understand that a woman has to put her career, her job, her education first. They accept her priorities and will follow her future career with interest. Now, in the meantime, let’s bring this dream home….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      One of the things that women most love about players is that they can be trusted to a) keep their mouths shut, and, b) not cause problems afterward. They are, oddly enough, safe in a way that most men are not. They understand that a woman has to put her career, her job, her education first. They accept her priorities and will follow her future career with interest.

      This sounds like a description of James Bond. I’m more used to hearing about players of the knuckleheaded douchebag variety who will promptly go enter the girl’s name on the basement whiteboard where Sex Bingo is ongoing.

  • Lokland

    @Oz (Ie. PJ)

    I’m Canadian. Most of the things that the US is discussing now was already established before my birth. (Gay marriage being an exception.)

    And if Obamacare is public…just no.

    I grew up with these things already existing. Existence is not the same as being told something should exist.

  • Oz

    Lokland, all I can do is repeat that what you wrote is mainstream in middle class America. Its exactly what most secular and moderately religious middle aged, middle class American parents are teaching their kids.

  • Lokland

    @Oz

    “Lokland, all I can do is repeat that what you wrote is mainstream in middle class America. Its exactly what most secular and moderately religious middle aged, middle class American parents are teaching their kids.”

    And I was born 2.5 decades ago. Those were mainstream here then. Back then it would have been extremely liberal.

    I’m not comparing my political views to that of the current set of 4 year olds but people in my own age range.

  • Oz

    “I’m not comparing my political views to that of the current set of 4 year olds but people in my own age range.”

    Then you’re in between the ages of the parents (30s-50s) and their kids (tweens-20s) that I’m talking about.

    Generally speaking a 45 year old middle class American parent will be telling his/her teenage daughter/son to “Support the gays, financial support for the poor, increased public healthcare.
    Sex was kind of in the middle. Be safe, be careful, better with someone you love (btw useless advice for a 12 year old)
    Morally, don’t steal, be a ‘nice’ boy, don’t be a user, don’t be lazy. Essentially I was raised with religious values minus the Jesus and sex was cool but not something to be indulged in randomly/with too many people.”

  • Oz

    Fist of Vulkan January 22, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    “It’s posts like these that tend to make me somewhat irate. I understand that it’s 2013 and the women I choose to date will have a couple of notches on their bedpost. Fine. I accept that, but to be thankful that I’m #44 in line and I’d best be grateful that she “settled” on me? I call bullsh*t.”

    Dude, chill. No one here is telling you that.

    44 would blow red flags in a cold wind for either sex. Especially if the one claiming it was below the age of 80.

    Context is key here, brah. Context is key.

    Nk,
    “I have now got my ‘strategy’ down to this. I have a high number if a ltr guy has a problem with it he can walk away. It’s my past and I can’t do anything to change it. Having given in quickly, held out and done somewhere in the middle I now sleep with someone quickly if I don’t want a ltr with them or its obvious one won’t happen but I’m up for it. If a ltr is on the cards now I will make them wait so they understand that I’m taking the possibility seriously. If they are trying it persistently so early then they are not taking you seriously.”

    Sounds about right, sis.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Is 5 20% worse than 4? How much worse is 6 than 5? Where is the cutting off point where things get unacceptable?
    Exactly, where is the cutting edge here? It just shows the absurdity of the “slut meter” thing right here, based on, well, you all know by now the “stains” I’m talking about…
    I went through the early part of my life thinking that with respect to the *social and moral* order, you were *required* to use religious dogmatic principles to the exclusion of all else, but with respect to *science*, you used modern technology as your benchmark.
    Spot on. Add money as the real first drive and you have America in a nutshell. No wonder the dmh isw more broken there. Feminism is just one of those consequences, and no wonder it is a more belligerant one than anywhere else.

  • Passer_By

    @OZ

    “but for the rest of us ordinary women, being a virgin far into adulthood signifies undesirability, as it does so for a man as well.”

    No, that’s projection. For a woman, it would not signify undesirability, since, for the most part, men essentially judge that with their eyes. What it would signal to me is a very low sex drive or even distaste for sex, which would not make for a very desirable partner (long or short term). This would be especially true for a very attractive woman, since she undoubtedly would have had limitless opportunities.

    @iggles

    “Silly me! Non-promiscuous have only ourselves to blame for any troubles with the opposites sex because we’re so uptight!”

    Maybe you already know this, but, if not, you should keep in mind that Oz is not a man. Oz is a woman with a high count.

  • Oz

    “Spot on. Add money as the real first drive and you have America in a nutshell. ”

    I love it when foreign men put us Amreekuns in our place! Spank me mi amor! Spank me!

    ” Feminism is just one of those consequences, and no wonder it is a more belligerant one than anywhere else.”

    Well it has to be for the very reason you stated, Amore. We’ve still got a bunch of extremist right wingers and religious nuts over here opposing freedom and normal, healthy sexuality.

    Western Europe is freer and more balanced, with less primitive mythical thinking. No?

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Russ in Texas
    I’m honestly having difficulty understanding where N is a factor at all here. She could have said “a socialist” (where politics was the issue) and the story would have read exactly the same.
    I read you on that one. And a lot of people who embraced or where endoctrinated by communism functioned or thought/reacted very much like the religious zealots.

  • http://jadekeller.com Jade @ Tasting Grace

    I’m not one to advocate promiscuity – for either men or women – but I’m troubled by an undercurrent I detect in her letter here. It seems like it is actually a huge issue for them that her husband doesn’t respect her AND, more importantly, she seems to accept this, which suggests she doesn’t feel that she, herself, is deserving and worthy of respect. This marriage is going to be intensely rocky unless they deal with BOTH sides of that equation. Whatever her past is, he has decided to marry her, and he needs to respect her as a person and it is incumbent upon him to get over his hangup about her number, “forgive” her, and bring trust and respect into the relationship. She, too, needs to forgive herself, act in ways that are worthy of trust and know she is worthy of respect and self-respect. I think she is carrying too much blame for the tension in their relationship, and that continues to keep them unequal. I do hope they seek counseling for this and find a way to come through it stronger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jade

      Whatever her past is, he has decided to marry her, and he needs to respect her as a person and it is incumbent upon him to get over his hangup about her number, “forgive” her, and bring trust and respect into the relationship. She, too, needs to forgive herself, act in ways that are worthy of trust and know she is worthy of respect and self-respect.

      I agree with you. Here are two married people who love one another. Yours is the only way forward.

  • Oz

    Passer_By January 22, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @OZ

    “but for the rest of us ordinary women, being a virgin far into adulthood signifies undesirability, as it does so for a man as well.”

    No, that’s projection. For a woman, it would not signify undesirability, since, for the most part, men essentially judge that with their eyes.

    Sigh. You conveniently edited out the first part of that statement in which I discussed the judging with eyes part – above average attractive women!
    So we agree, despite your attempt to edit that out.

    “What it would signal to me is a very low sex drive or even distaste for sex, which would not make for a very desirable partner (long or short term). ”

    Agreed.

    “Maybe you already know this, but, if not, you should keep in mind that Oz is not a man. Oz is a woman with a high count.”

    And you know this………………….. how?

  • JP

    “Spot on. Add money as the real first drive and you have America in a nutshell. No wonder the dmh isw more broken there. Feminism is just one of those consequences, and no wonder it is a more belligerant one than anywhere else.”

    I never really did figure out how people figured out what was morally or culturally appropriate without recourse to some underling source, since there had to be some authority or source to make your decision.

    It’s kind of scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere. If you aren’t allowed to make up your own scientific laws, you can’t make up your own cultural/moral laws, either.

    You have the underlying source (sola scriptura – Go Luther!) and you worked from there to achieve your answer as to how your life (and the entire world) should be culturally/morally oriented.

  • JP

    @Iggles:

    “And you know this………………….. how?”

    Isn’t oz, P-J?

  • JP

    “Whatever her past is, he has decided to marry her, and he needs to respect her as a person and it is incumbent upon him to get over his hangup about her number, “forgive” her, and bring trust and respect into the relationship.”

    I didn’t realize that respect of this nature was required in a marriage.

    Isn’t one person in the marriage always going to be “morally superior” to the other one, in a manner of speaking?

  • Oz

    “I never really did figure out how people figured out what was morally or culturally appropriate without recourse to some underling source, since there had to be some authority or source to make your decision.

    It’s kind of scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere. If you aren’t allowed to make up your own scientific laws, you can’t make up your own cultural/moral laws, either.

    You have the underlying source (sola scriptura – Go Luther!) and you worked from there to achieve your answer as to how your life (and the entire world) should be culturally/morally oriented.”

    Well there are many cultures and religions to choose from and you can make up your own since they were all constructed by humans anyway. After some time when a percentage tipping point is reached they form a “collective consciousness” but they all started with the ideas of one or a few individuals, particularly religions, cultures are less linear.

    In the global village age we have the oppurtunity to pick and choose bits and pieces from a wide variety of sources in addition to adding our own views.

    Science, at least the hard sciences, are more cut and dry.

  • Oz

    “Isn’t oz, P-J?”

    Both of us are low N. The teen neighbor has the N now at 16 that Oz had at 26 and PJ is found of being romanced by exotic foreign men without bedding them. She’s particularly fond of dark haired Francos.

    ;)

  • JP

    “Well there are many cultures and religions to choose from and you can make up your own since they were all constructed by humans anyway. After some time when a percentage tipping point is reached they form a “collective consciousness” but they all started with the ideas of one or a few individuals, particularly religions, cultures are less linear.”

    They weren’t “constructed”, rather they grew.

    I kind of like Spengler’s outlook with respect to High Cultures. It’s very fractal and organic. Kind of like life itself.

  • JP

    “We always hear about the necessity of slut shaming, and when I’ve suggested shaming cads, the men have been strongly opposed, claiming that women are the gatekeepers. IDK – if we stopped rewarding cads with “SMP WINNER” trophies, we might see a shift.”

    Shaming cads is an excellent idea.

    (Granted, I though that we were supposed to be doing that in the first place)

  • OffTheCuff

    JP: “Isn’t oz, P-J?”

    One of many.

  • Oz

    Susan and BB, the problem with all this “wait til this amount of dates before doing it” and “have him invest in you but not too much, offer to go dutch even if you don’t mean it but really try to mean it if you can” etc, is that it completely glosses over the fact that women want to have sex just as much, if not more, than men do.

    Its easy to wait a long time if you’re not horny or particularly hot for the guy. If you’re horny AND particularly hot for a man who is equally hot for you, well, its torture for both.

    What exactly is supposed to be the end pay off of this self inflicted torture? An engagement ring at the end of date 11?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What torture?

    You mean waiting to have sex until you are in a relationship with someone that takes you seriously? Dramatically reducing STD chances? Eliminating the Walk of Shame? No more awkward ONS? No more slut angst? Not having anymore sex where women rarely have orgasms?

    Man, life without casual sex is SO ROUGH

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “We always hear about the necessity of slut shaming, and when I’ve suggested shaming cads, the men have been strongly opposed, claiming that women are the gatekeepers. IDK – if we stopped rewarding cads with “SMP WINNER” trophies, we might see a shift”

    Shaming cads is fine, though pointless.

    Shaming all men, whether they are a cad or not – while at the same time *not* shaming women is the problem. Result: ghe cads don’t give a shit, the good men sabotage themselves trying to be nice, and the women prefer the cads.

    The end.

  • george

    “Having given in quickly, held out and done somewhere in the middle I now sleep with someone quickly if I don’t want a ltr with them or its obvious one won’t happen but I’m up for it. If a ltr is on the cards now I will make them wait so they understand that I’m taking the possibility seriously. If they are trying it persistently so early the. They are not taking you seriously.”

    smh, I literally don’t even know how to respond to this.

  • Passer_By

    @Oz

    “Sigh. You conveniently edited out the first part of that statement in which I discussed the judging with eyes part – above average attractive women!
    So we agree, despite your attempt to edit that out.”

    No, we don’t. We judge the sexual desirability of all women with our eyes, not just the “drop dead gorgeous” ones, as you described them. That includes the average “Plain Janes” like you. Her being a virgin is not likely to materially alter our assessment of that one way or the other. Just because you experience attraction from preselection does not mean that we do.

    “And you know this………………….. how?”

    I see it in your eyes.

  • Oz

    “They weren’t “constructed”, rather they grew.”

    Same thing. The fact is that one or a few individuals came up with some ideas that others found interesting and from there it all expanded. There’s no reason why you or I or anyone else couldn’t come up with ideas that create new religious movements right here, right now. In fact, it happens all the time where I’m from.

    That’s not the point. Point is that culture and religions are things that individuals can and do choose to follow in any which way. They are not absolutes that must be followed, like laws of nature (consumption and evacuation) for example.

  • Oz

    “Her being a virgin is not likely to materially alter our assessment of that one way or the other.”

    That was precisely my point.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Regarding cad shaming – shaming cads may result in some of them being less cad-like, but that just leaves more opportunity for the other cads, thereby making it more rewarding to be a cad. Shaming sluts would not have that same effect since sluts can pretty much get sex whenever, if that’s all they want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m bummed that cad shaming makes no sense in economic terms.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “What I was really trying to say was that we’ve evolved for reasons that have presumably led to maximum reproductive success, at least thus far. I have little patience for suggestions that we should quell this or that instinct, or evolve in a different direction.”

    However, marriage is all about “quelling instincts”.

    In fact, you’re quelling the very instinct that got you into the marriage in the first place.

    Culture > Biology, however a healthy culture must take biology into account.

  • Oz

    george January 22, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    “Having given in quickly, held out and done somewhere in the middle I now sleep with someone quickly if I don’t want a ltr with them or its obvious one won’t happen but I’m up for it. If a ltr is on the cards now I will make them wait so they understand that I’m taking the possibility seriously. If they are trying it persistently so early the. They are not taking you seriously.”

    “smh, I literally don’t even know how to respond to this.”

    Its easy. She wants an LTR but because she’s human and has sexual desire like all humans except for the few asexual ones, she is willing to have casual sex or an STR with a man she finds sexually attractive and who also wants to have sex with her, without expecting an LTR from him if he doesn’t want one.

    When she finds an attractive man who DOES want an LTR with her, she’ll be ready, willing and happy for that too.

  • JP

    @Passer-by:

    “Regarding cad shaming – shaming cads may result in some of them being less cad-like, but that just leaves more opportunity for the other cads, thereby making it more rewarding to be a cad. Shaming sluts would not have that same effect since sluts can pretty much get sex whenever, if that’s all they want.”

    This is the problem that you run into. You basically have to fine them or incarcerate them.

  • Oz

    “How is that possible, when I’m widely regarded in the sphere as some sort of Slutwitch?”

    They’re either new to you or didn’t get the Slutwitch memo.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    ” I wish they had not married, that’s the weirdest part of the story to me.”

    Absent some external standard, there’s really no understanding of what the point of marriage is anymore or why you get married.

    Is it a declaration of love?

    A contract?

    A religious sacrament?

    You have to have some underlying concept of what marriage is in order to figure out why you are getting married.

  • Oz

    “That does sound pretty wacked, but I don’t think this is common in more secular communities. We have no reason to suspect Nancy and her husband are religious”

    Yeah has been my point all along. These religious people are projecting their religions onto the rest of us. Don’t know where Remo is from but Christianity is a minority religion in the USA right now so citing Biblical texts and mores doesn’t hold much ground.

    Now had he brought up the issue of possible STD risk…….

  • Oz

    OMG Susan, turn on the OWN network RIGHT NOW. That Asian news reporter (Lucy Liu? forget her name but you know the one) is doing a documentary on how 50 Shades of Grey is influencing mainstream American vanilla sex to become more Mint Chocolate Chip!!!!

  • OffTheCuff

    Troll: “Christianity is a minority religion in the USA right now so citing Biblical texts and mores doesn’t hold much ground.”

    Yeah, the USA is only 73% Chrisitian – http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx

  • JP

    ” Our family went out to dinner to celebrate my son’s 26th birthday. He was in the men’s room, washing his hands, when he looked up in the mirror to see two very satisfied looking males emerge from one stall together.”

    You know, I had no idea that the entire gay sex men’s room thing existed until that Republican Larry Craig scandal.

    Granted, I didn’t really know that there actually were homosexual people until I got to college. That was quite the eye opener.

  • Passer_By

    @OZ

    “That was precisely my point.”

    Ok, sorry. I should have realized that was precisely point, even though you wrote exactly the opposite of that. Carry on.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Oz, I see your point. I’m sure views on this will differ, but here’s my take: I personally try to calibrate my sexual expectations to the unilateral effort that I put into a date.

    For instance, if a relationship with a new girl had solely consisted of 5 casual, daytime coffee type dates, I wouldn’t feel like I was being particularly blown off or beta-ized/de-sexualized. In fact, the woman in this case is usually the first to start pushing for physical escalation of the relationship; the first or second time we actually go out in the evening will probably conclude with sex.

    On the other end of the scale, 5 full-blown, high-expense, complex romantic evenings complete with prestigious date gifts, dining, entertainment, etc. without sex would be just absurd to me. I don’t think I could survive it w/o feeling like a chump.

    So my sense of sexual urgency is pegged directly to the amount of time, energy, and money I have to put into the meeting. Low-expense, easy, daytime coffee-shop “dates” can go on for a lot longer w/o causing me to feel antsy. Sometimes a coffee date can go on for hours and dinner plans can emerge spontaneously, as neither of us want the thing to end; that’s a wonderful, surfing-like feeling and what courtship is all about IMHO.

    I think that there is a tendency to believe that all players will take a buckshot-like, high-rejection % approach that includes a few variations on the basic “there’s a party in my pants and you’re invited” theme, repeated like a bludgeon on multiple women in the same small venue until someone agrees.

    If a man is new to social interactions with women, emboldened by chemical mood enhancements, and/or believes that he has a very large SMV advantage over a woman, then he may try that kind of brute force approach to find out if she is DTF immediately. Obviously an LTR-seeking woman will be able to disqualify him quickly, and he’ll be ok with this as he’s looking for someone who wants a ONS. But experienced, multidisciplinary players are a lot more subtle than this and will try to craft a storyline that somewhat fits the standard romance novel emotional arc (perhaps Aristotle put it best: “The fool tells me his reasons; the wise man persuades me with my own”). They have a lot of experience with women and they know how to push the right buttons and to get past BS detectors and cad filters, (most of these filters have been set to catch moronic, sloppy Jersey Shore types rather than socio-culturally sophisticated operators).

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “That does sound pretty wacked, but I don’t think this is common in more secular communities.”

    Really? I would think the condemnation of him for breaking up with her over her number would be even higher in non-religious communities. He would catch a lot of shit for it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Really? I would think the condemnation of him for breaking up with her over her number would be even higher in non-religious communities. He would catch a lot of shit for it.

      I don’t know – I keep reading posts about ministers in churches who have replaced fire and brimstone speeches with “MAN UP AND MARRY THOSE SLUTS!”

      Even feminists don’t do that.

  • George

    Its easy. She wants an LTR but because she’s human and has sexual desire like all humans except for the few asexual ones, she is willing to have casual sex or an STR with a man she finds sexually attractive and who also wants to have sex with her, without expecting an LTR from him if he doesn’t want one.

    When she finds an attractive man who DOES want an LTR with her, she’ll be ready, willing and happy for that too.

    I said I don’t know how to respond, not I don’t understand. Once again I’m new here and I’m just getting the terminology but isn’t this basically the very definition of price discrimination. I’ve definitely had women who I knew were doing this to me in the past and that is when you don’t walk but RUN away. I’m supposed to be happy to work for what she freely does with other men at the drop of a hat b/c she likes me more? This is the type of behavior that makes men and women so adversarial towards each other when it comes to dating in the first place. Congrats on being part of the problem instead of the solution.

  • Oz

    JP, “Granted, I didn’t really know that there actually were homosexual people until I got to college. That was quite the eye opener.”

    Was the eye all that got opened? ;)

    BB, I read your comment and have to say that as a woman the more complex and romantic dates would create a sense of sexual urgency within me as well because they are more polarized and less neutral than coffee dates. I can do coffee dates with my female friends, but the long romantic dinners over candle light with an attractive man and soft music playing in the background is bound to create tingles and have my mind spinning with the possibilities of….. spinning ;) and I’m not necessarily talking about “plates” here.

    Passer By, “Ok, sorry. I should have realized that was precisely the point, even though you wrote exactly the opposite of that. ”

    I was telling women here not to walk away with the idea that having a low or no N in and of itself has value. It only has value in context of looks, personality and how you make him “feel”, if at all.

  • YaReallyBannedSometimes

    I don’t judge a woman by how many partners she’s had. I’ve fucked virgins and high-Ns. People are people and they follow their instincts and do what feels good. As long as she had fun, it’s all good, I’m glad she had some good experiences that helped her to become the sexually comfortable woman that I’m attracted to.

    For a nice normal respectable guy like, say, Ted (no offense dude), how often does he turn down sex from women? Especially hot women? When he’s single? A few times in his life MAYBE? So his promiscuity ratio is like 6 bangs per 10 offers for sex say, and those 10 offers are in his whole life because normal guys don’t generally get propositioned for sex by hotties.

    How many times does a chick who looks like Megan Fox turn down sex? FOUR HUNDRED MILLION TIMES A YEAR. lol. Like Chris Rock says, every dude who asks if she needs assistance or holds a door open or asks her for the time or buys her a drink might as well be saying “want some dick?”

    So maybe she fucks 20 guys before she’s 25. Her ratio is only 25 bangs per EIGHT HUNDRED BILLION OFFERS. And a lot of those offers are from rich dudes, good-looking dudes, etc

    She is basically turning down sex CONSTANTLY, something a guy can’t even wrap his head around. When a smokin hottie gets on the bus and keeps her eyes looking down so she doesn’t actually invite a creeper to talk to her by accidentally making eye-contact, she just turned down like 10 guys on that bus who would love to fuck her.

    If a guy has hundreds of women throwing themselves at him every week begging for sex, and he turns them all down for months at a time, THAT guy can call slut and get huffy about her N count.

    But hey I’m an asshole so what do I know. :P

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I’m bummed that cad shaming makes no sense in economic terms.”

    Just add a financial incentive.

    A Cad tax should work wonders.

  • Oz

    “I said I don’t know how to respond, not I don’t understand. Once again I’m new here and I’m just getting the terminology but isn’t this basically the very definition of price discrimination. I’ve definitely had women who I knew were doing this to me in the past and that is when you don’t walk but RUN away. I’m supposed to be happy to work for what she freely does with other men at the drop of a hat b/c she likes me more? ”

    George, Nk’s point was that she’d be happy to have early sex with a man she thought was LTR material too, but men on this blog are saying if women go for sex early, they will disqualify them as LTR partner material and toss them in the “pump-n-dump” pile.

    So Nk figures, “ok, if a guy has LTR potential, I’ll make him wait a bit so he doesn’t pump-n-dump me”.

    She’s responding to this blog’s market demand of her.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @JP
    It’s kind of scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere. If you aren’t allowed to make up your own scientific laws, you can’t make up your own cultural/moral laws, either.
    JP, you’re a witty guy but, without wanting to offend you, for we also have a very different kind of humour within cultures, it sounds to me hopelessly like one of those dreadful 80′s hit songs (you spin me round round like a record…) I used to hear in the cafés back in my high school years, when all I thought about was trying to find a way to talk to the cute, reserved brown eyed girl (always pensively nosedived in her Maupassant short stories) from the next classroom was more important than listening to our aging Physics/biology frustrated feminist teacher endlessly explaining to us how (all year long, lol) “la table à air comprimé” functioned. What I mean is that starting to even talk about those “scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere” always bored them out of their mind (the razor-sharp female logic, i/e make me dream, sweep me away but in the end offer me realities), and rightfully so. Woman’s interest is different, and somewhere else. Somewhere else meaning not on planet Venus, but right here on earth…

    @OZ/PJ
    “Amore” is, in my culture, a big word not used that lightly. I hope you haven’t used that too easily with the opposite sex overseas.
    Anyway, welcome back, PJ, I like your criticism of some of the most obvious flaws of American culture, especially the “sacred cows” thing, which most people don’t seem to get here.

  • Oz

    JP, “Just add a financial incentive. A Cad tax should work wonders.”

    Japan has beat us to it;

    http://www.japancrush.com/2012/pictures/tax-handsome-men-increase-birthrate-says-economic-analyst.html

  • Oz

    “Amore” is, in my culture, a big word not used that lightly. I hope you haven’t used that too easily with the opposite sex overseas.”

    Interesting you should say this because I was just complaining the other day that men (and not just American men) say “I love you” to women they don’t really love yet, and way too soon. I don’t exactly know why men do this but I’ve had the experience one too many times to not notice a pattern.

    Have other women noticed this? Were the men in your lives the first to say “I love you” and way too soon for it to actually be real love?

    How about the guys here? Can you fill me in on this? Is it a “guy thing”?

  • JP

    “What I mean is that starting to even talk about those “scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere” always bored them out of their mind (the razor-sharp female logic, i/e make me dream, sweep me away but in the end offer me realities), and rightfully so. Woman’s interest is different, and somewhere else.”

    That’s because it is boring.

    It also doesn’t actually apply to reality, which makes it even worse than boring.

  • Passer_By

    @Oz

    “George, Nk’s point was that she’d be happy to have early sex with a man she thought was LTR material too, but men on this blog are saying if women go for sex early, they will disqualify them as LTR partner material and toss them in the “pump-n-dump” pile. ”

    SOME men are saying that. Others (such as yours truly) would generally have the exact opposite attitude, since we are suffiently realistic to assume that there were other guys who she did not make wait. And nothing is more “wack” than treating the guy you seek for LTR, and who is open to it, worse than the guy who just wants to pump and dump you.

  • J

    The harsh judgment and superiority of some here is really over the top. Disappointed.

    Your first day here?

    Also, if PJ is back, could she post under her own name?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The harsh judgment and superiority of some here is really over the top. Disappointed.

      Your first day here?

      No, but I guess hope springs eternal, haha. I’ve realized the extremist commentariat are like any other extremists – no matter how many you get rid of more spring up to take their place.

  • JP

    “Have other women noticed this? Were the men in your lives the first to say “I love you” and way too soon for it to actually be real love?

    How about the guys here? Can you fill me in on this? Is it a “guy thing”?”

    I don’t even know what “real love” is supposed to look/feel like.

    I certainly know what it feels like to not be into a girl you’re dating. In which case, I know that certainly “not love”.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “I keep reading posts about ministers in churches who have replaced fire and brimstone speeches with “MAN UP AND MARRY THOSE SLUTS!””

    I guess, though that’s just the minister. I doubt most of the church goers feel the same way. And, even if they did, he could just change churches. But the secular guy cannot change his whole family and social circle, who are likely programmed to condemn him and call him “insecure” for caring about her N.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      But the secular guy cannot change his whole family and social circle, who are likely programmed to condemn him and call him “insecure” for caring about her N.

      Really? I hang out with a very liberal lefty group, and even those women are eager to state that their son’s girlfriends are “good girls.” And moms gossip viciously and judgmentally about the daughters who are the “town bikes” and what that says about how they were raised. Feminism notwithstanding, parents don’t want daughters to be sluts or sons to commit to sluts.

      As for the friend group, I imagine there is less judgment there, but from what I hear guys are ruthless in their disrespect and dissing of the very sluts they’re banging. Any guy who gets with a slut for more than casual gets a lot of shit from his friends (or at the very least a lot of “Yikes” to others behind his back.)

      I can honestly say that I have never heard, nor heard of anyone shaming a guy into chilling out about a woman’s sexual history, other than from online manginas.

  • Oz

    “And nothing is more “wack” than treating the guy you seek for LTR, and who is open to it, worse than the guy who just wants to pump and dump you.”

    Its not a matter of treating him worse or better. Its giving him what he wants. If a particular LTR guy is of the mindset to pump-n-dump a date/potential girlfriend over early sex or not making him wait/jump through hoops/invest, then it is in that woman’s best interest to WAIT if she indeed wants him as her LTR partner badly enough.

    If she knows ahead of time that he will continue to see her and not throw her in p-n-d pile, then she can have sex early with him.

  • JP

    “I guess, though that’s just the minister. I doubt most of the church goers feel the same way. And, even if they did, he could just change churches. But the secular guy cannot change his whole family and social circle, who are likely programmed to condemn him and call him “insecure” for caring about her N.”

    I miss the old days where they gave sermons on the prisonhouse of the flesh.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “the butthole loophole.”

    LOL. I never heard that term.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “the butthole loophole.”

      LOL. I never heard that term.

      That’s because I just made it up. I was torn between that and buttloophole. :)

  • J

    Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women.

    Did DH follow me here?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women.

      Did DH follow me here?

      I’m glad to see the flu hasn’t dimmed your wit!

  • Passer_By

    @Oz

    “How about the guys here? Can you fill me in on this? Is it a “guy thing”?”

    I don’t know, but . . . I think I love you, PJ.

  • Oz

    “What I mean is that starting to even talk about those “scientific principles applied to the cultural/moral sphere” always bored them out of their mind (the razor-sharp female logic, i/e make me dream, sweep me away but in the end offer me realities), and rightfully so. Woman’s interest is different, and somewhere else.”

    Scientific principles are more solid than cultural/moral spheres which vary culture to culture, religion to religion, and morph over time in each of those varying cultures and religions.

    There can be some vague overlaps, sometimes.

  • JP

    Can somebody fill me in on PJ’s general troll operating parameters?

    I haven’t really locked her down, yet and until I do, I’m honestly not sure how exactly to proceed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Can somebody fill me in on PJ’s general troll operating parameters?

      I haven’t really locked her down, yet and until I do, I’m honestly not sure how exactly to proceed.

      As the host I can tell you that I have a certain fondness for PJ. I generally let her hang around until she gets on my last nerve. She’s smart and funny. But she does tend to go off on crazy tangents, which is annoying. She’s got some real fans here, and also some detractors.

      I’ll join the crew who is asking for PJ to quit posting as Oz and revert to her true identity.

  • Oz

    “I don’t know, but . . . I think I love you, PJ.”

    Pix or GTFO.

    “I miss the old days where they gave sermons on the prisonhouse of the flesh.”

    Sounds kinky.
    Speaking of which, Susan, did you turn on the OWN channel?
    BDSM is going mainstream now. That Asian reporter says so.

  • George

    “George, Nk’s point was that she’d be happy to have early sex with a man she thought was LTR material too, but men on this blog are saying if women go for sex early, they will disqualify them as LTR partner material and toss them in the “pump-n-dump” pile.

    So Nk figures, “ok, if a guy has LTR potential, I’ll make him wait a bit so he doesn’t pump-n-dump me”.

    She’s responding to this blog’s market demand of her.”

    Well I guess I’m finding I’m not a typical guy but my thoughts on it are this:
    First I already stated earlier, I think women should be having sex quickly but more discriminately. I realize maybe a woman filters for it aren’t as good but I feel like I can spot a player easily before someone chimes in with something about guys lying about their intent. Also I primarily look for LTR but because I know how the hookup culture works and I’m weary of the exact type of logic she is talking about, I too screen for LTR by how quickly she has sex. If she doesn’t have sex with in fairly short order I am not going to be considering her for a LTR. If I suspect that she is holding out specifically because she views me as LTR material but normally would not I’m definitely not going to get involved with her long term. To be perfectly honest though I’m not super experienced and this hasn’t really been an issue for me except when I was very young, like in my teens, but it made me weary enough to not accept it. I’ve always had sex with a girl no later than the second date or not at all, and that doesn’t come from me pushing for it. Several times at the end of a “date” (or whatever) a girl has basically straight out asked if I wanted to do it, which surprises me every time.

    But through reading through these long term comments threads I am finding I must not hold the same views as are common among men such as the ones I’ve expressed in this thread. It seems a lot of the guys are considering 5 a high number and I do not. I’m also starting to suspect that my SMV is higher than I had previously led myself to believe.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      I realize maybe a woman filters for it aren’t as good but I feel like I can spot a player easily before someone chimes in with something about guys lying about their intent.

      The best thing a woman can do is ask a trusted male friend or relative for his opinion of a guy. Guys can always spot players and cads. My son has never steered my daughter wrong. Even when I thought he was being too harsh, he always turned out to be right.

      Similarly, women can always pick out the psycho bitches immediately – and we never fail to be amazed when the slutty crazies get hot boyfriends.

  • JP

    “I’m also starting to suspect that my SMV is higher than I had previously led myself to believe.”

    Well, it could be worse.

    I’m married and I don’t even know my SMV or my MMV.

    Granted, I didn’t know that people had SMVs or MMVs until I learned it on this blog.

  • Oz

    “Can somebody fill me in on PJ’s general troll operating parameters?”

    For a while I kept getting banned and coming back under new monikers. Eventually people starting accusing a lot of other new commenters of being me, like DOZENS, which boggled my mind because most if not all of them said things I’d never say, even when trying to be someone else.

    The bottomline is that Susan can’t quit me because I do make valid points (as noted by our suave and debonair Franco above).

    I call for rationalism in place of primitive mythology and balance in place of extremity, both of which you will find plenty of here since Susan unfortunately for a time attracted a lot of angry MRA types and the newbies to their sites tend to find there way over here from time to time, seeking to project their values onto us.

    By the way, all my anecdotes, like the teen in today’s example, are true.

  • Oz

    “Several times at the end of a “date” (or whatever) a girl has basically straight out asked if I wanted to do it, which surprises me every time.”

    Why does it “surprise” you? If those one red pill I’m in favor of men swallowing, its the fact that WOMEN LOVE SEX TO Y’ALL!

    And I’d wager we love it more than circumcised men do, considering we still have our gazillion nerve ending spot in tact.

  • George

    I wasn’t familiar with these terms either until coming here.

    I’m not thinking I’m at the top end of any scales but I’m realizing when I did date it was usually pretty fucking easy for me, and when I didn’t it probably had more to do with my own lack of aggressiveness than lack of desireability or opportunity. I just never really realized maybe til now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      I’m not thinking I’m at the top end of any scales but I’m realizing when I did date it was usually pretty fucking easy for me, and when I didn’t it probably had more to do with my own lack of aggressiveness than lack of desireability or opportunity. I just never really realized maybe til now.

      Well, that’s a pretty awesome wake up call. Assuming you’re still single, you know what to do.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    “I call for rationalism in place of primitive mythology and balance in place of extremity, both of which you will find plenty of here since Susan unfortunately for a time attracted a lot of angry MRA types and the newbies to their sites tend to find there way over here from time to time, seeking to project their values onto us.”

    The problem is that modernity is over, so rationalism’s not going to be a cultural driver going forward.

  • Tasmin

    “…seeking to project their values onto us.”

    Like icing on the cake.

  • JP

    “I wasn’t familiar with these terms either until coming here.”

    I now know that some of my stranger experiences were caused by something called “hook-up culture”.

    At the time, having a hook-up inflicted upon me was just confusing.

  • JP

    “I’m not thinking I’m at the top end of any scales but I’m realizing when I did date it was usually pretty fucking easy for me, and when I didn’t it probably had more to do with my own lack of aggressiveness than lack of desireability or opportunity. I just never really realized maybe til now.”

    All I know is that before I got married I never really figured out that I was supposed to approach girls I was interested in and I wasn’t interested in the ones who flung themselves at me.

  • Oz

    George, I see why you’re confused. Yeah, if you peruse through this blogs threads you’ll see a lot of male comments about pumping and dumping women who “let” guys have sex with them early. You’ll see guys saying women go into 1 of 2 categories; LTR or pump-n-dump.

    I guess they’ve never had a woman who had the early hots for them AND have a relationship with them simultaneously.

    Strange.

    I suspect though some have not had much experience with women at all and are just blowing hot air out of their butthole loopholes.

    I mean come, what man is going to dump a woman with the early hots for him?

  • George

    Basically. I was aware of hookup culture, I just always kind of figured I didn’t qualify to be a part of it. You always hear these dudes talking about the top 20% of guys are the only ones who get to enjoy it. I’m thinking maybe due to my own issues I relegated myself to tha bottom 80% when I wasn’t in fact really there. I saw a dude, a kind of player, from an old group of friends running some errands today and tbh he seemed kind of threatened by me. Man, and I’ve had so much anger directed towards women. smh

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      You always hear these dudes talking about the top 20% of guys are the only ones who get to enjoy it. I’m thinking maybe due to my own issues I relegated myself to tha bottom 80% when I wasn’t in fact really there.

      I’m beginning to think this is very common. I’ve seen enough pics from readers to say with certainty that some attractive guys are grossly underestimating their SMV.

      I suspect that a number of these guys have no problem gaining attraction, but sustaining it is an issue and they need more dominance, i.e. Game.

  • George

    Yeah like I said waaaaaaaaaaaaaay earlier. I always used fast sex as way to hopefully lead into something more. I have also apparently had more sex than the average guy but I always thought it was less. I’m somewhere between 6-10 at 32. apparently 3 lifetime is average from what you guys are saying?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @George

      I always used fast sex as way to hopefully lead into something more.

      And that right there is the problem. Assuming she caught a whiff of that hope. Stick around!

  • Oz

    “The problem is that modernity is over, so rationalism’s not going to be a cultural driver going forward.”

    Are you speaking of the New Atheist search to replicate the socio-cultural-metaphysical meaning that religion/god gave humanity, sans god/religion?

    The Asian wisdom traditions had that covered already thousands of years ago.

    There is such a thing has “rational religion”.

  • JP

    “Are you speaking of the New Atheist search to replicate the socio-cultural-metaphysical meaning that religion/god gave humanity, sans god/religion?”

    No.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Susan
    Mmm, sorry but,
    I saw it there, i/e how being “extroverted” was considered as socially attractive/popular, aka the fake overacting socializing smile and facade hyper activity, etc. Being quiet yet confident and at some point making a sincere move always gave me more (sincere as well) results than going along with that extroverted game which is, in my view, there mistakingly considered as confidence itself. Long story.

    @OZHow about the guys here? Can you fill me in on this? Is it a “guy thing”?
    Good question. Go for it. Let’s see how my american counterparts respond. LOl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Damien

      Being quiet yet confident and at some point making a sincere move always gave me more (sincere as well) results than going along with that extroverted game which is, in my view, there mistakingly considered as confidence itself.

      Valid point. Women love a brooding loner, mysterious stranger, etc.

      I’m with you on the sincere moves, btw. That never turned me off if it came from someone who believed they were qualified for the role.

      I will say, as a very extraverted person, that socializing need not be fake or hyper. I love being with people, meeting people, etc. Bringing new people into my life gives me a great deal of pleasure.

      Extraversion is correlated to narcissism, and I’ll admit I’m fairly narcissistic as well, but I would also be described as a good, loyal and generous friend.

      Don’t hate on us extraverts. :(

  • Oz

    George
    “Man, and I’ve had so much anger directed towards women.”

    Let’s explore this, shall we? Why did you have so much anger directed toward women?

    “Basically. I was aware of hookup culture, I just always kind of figured I didn’t qualify to be a part of it. You always hear these dudes talking about the top 20% of guys are the only ones who get to enjoy it. I’m thinking maybe due to my own issues I relegated myself to tha bottom 80% when I wasn’t in fact really there. ….I always used fast sex as way to hopefully lead into something more. I have also apparently had more sex than the average guy but I always thought it was less. I’m somewhere between 6-10 at 32. apparently 3 lifetime is average from what you guys are saying?”

    Well, the Manosphere tends to wallow in the extremes; high N sluts/cads vs pure virgins and incels.
    The vast majority of human sexuality is on a spectrum in between.
    For example, the college students who graduate with high Ns are a minority of highly promiscuous people who rotated partners amongst themselves. While the vast majority of students graduate with low to medium notches garnered through “relationship sex” with 1 or a few boyfriends/girlfriends. Not an insignificant number graduate as virgins, some even by choice!

    So college is not this complete bacchannal that the Manosphere and now the “Christos-andro-sphere” as someone coined it, keeps pounding their chests and modest B-cups over.

  • Oz

    French Kiss said, “I saw it there, i/e how being “extroverted” was considered as socially attractive/popular, aka the fake overacting socializing smile and facade hyper activity, etc.”

    My Little Cabbage, real extroversion is not “fake”. They are genuinely outgoing people. If someone is faking it then they are not really extroverted.

    (By the way, I think it was my people, not yours, who invented the tongue kiss )

    Kama Sutra
    Part 2, Chapter 3

    ;)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I have little patience for suggestions that we should quell this or that instinct, or evolve in a different direction.”

    Why?
    The pill has introduced a new selective pressure. Like it or not evolution will occur. Artificial selection has been used successfully for thousands of years.

    The only problem with that of course is that it requires eugenics which is typically considered less than applicable to humans.

    “What I was really trying to say was that we’ve evolved for reasons that have presumably led to maximum reproductive success, at least thus far.”

    Relating this to the above. We could increase our reproductive success further and regardless of how we feel it will occur anyway. The agricultural revolution, industrialization and pill have seen to a drastic change in selective pressures.

    The only caveat, is that in very large populations with tons of migration evolution will occur very, very, very slowly (to the point it can be almost considered to not be occurring).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Relating this to the above. We could increase our reproductive success further and regardless of how we feel it will occur anyway. The agricultural revolution, industrialization and pill have seen to a drastic change in selective pressures.

      True, but we are utterly incapable of making good choices and anticipating consequences. I say let nature take its course.

      In particular, what I mean is that it’s pointless to tell men to evolve away from caring about women’s sexual histories, or to tell women they need to evolve past caring about status.

  • George

    I can see that. I have to admit though. I read the posts on lifetime average sexual partners on this site and for women it just doesn’t seem realistic. I grew up around girls who would give their bf friend a bj because their bf asked them to, and who brag about having had sex with three different guys in three days, who would yell out “who wants to have sex with me?” at the end of the night at parties and who had pissing matches about the most guys they had done at a time. I also work with all women (that’s right I’m the only guy) and have asked them about this kind of thing, and while most of them are in relationships, they also told me stories about kicking guys out of bed 5 minutes after they were through so they could go meet a different guy. I have a hard time believing those surveys.

    So my next question is, where can a guy get honest down to earth advice that is free of pills regardless of color. I just want to date a few girls and for a bit and maybe have a nice actual relationship with someone who is not like the women I described above. I was kind of brought up believing being sexually forward in any capacity made you evil.

  • Oz

    “So my next question is, where can a guy get honest down to earth advice that is free of pills regardless of color.”

    You mean BC pills? ;)

    Odd isn’t it, that they were invented to make sex more freely available and at the same time they kill the libido. Sort of like the M-sphere’s beloved “red pill” wouldn’t ya say?

    “I just want to date a few girls and for a bit and maybe have a nice actual relationship with someone who is not like the women I described above.”

    From what it sounds like you’re already doing exactly what you want, with a 6-10 notch count and having early sex with women who end up being your girlfriends. You’re livin’ the dream brah!

    By the way, the chicks you describe in the first paragraph above sound a bit extreme, do you think some of them could be falsely advertising? Sort of like macho bravado but the female version? If you don’t mind me asking, where do you live and what’s your socio-cultural-economic background? I’m not the most PC mothafucka in town, so shoot me.

  • Infantry

    I find it very funny how some of the girls here are attempting to logically convince men into accepting a high N.

    Ladies can you imagine a man trying to convince you how the nerdy, socially inept skinny guy would make a good husband because he will support you, treat you nicely, will earn good money and is unlikely to divorce you?

    Its like saying ‘We live in modern age. No sabre-toothed tigers are going to sneak into the cave so you don’t need a man that’s taller than you to feel safe anymore’

    That’s the kind of logic you’re using here. You’re arguing with evolution. Lizard brains do not care about double standards or ‘its so stupid’. The ‘insecurity’ argument is another rationalised red herring to transfer ‘blame’ for this onto men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I find it very funny how some of the girls here are attempting to logically convince men into accepting a high N.

      Who’s doing that?

  • George

    “You mean BC pills? ;)

    Odd isn’t it, that they were invented to make sex more freely available and at the same time they kill the libido.”
    Hilarious
    “Sort of like the M-sphere’s beloved “red pill” wouldn’t ya say?”
    too true.

    Well admittedly I did used to be pretty heavy into drug culture. But the thing about my co-workers is current and I’ve been drug free and living a normal life for a few years.

    I live in the South-Eastern U.S. I’m white, and come from a middle class background.

    The thing is I’ve basically gotten lucky, as I said, I thing I’ve underestimated my value up to this point and I think women have jumped on that the same way a guy might on a pretty girl who was underestimating herself. I would like more agency. I haven’t had sex in going on two years and went on one date in the entirety of last year (the year before that saw more action.) I don’t feel entirely in a position to change that. I definitely get interest from women, but I think I’ve been too brainwashed, and I think anything I do will be seen as unacceptable in some way and I don’t entirely trust most women to boot.

  • Joe

    @PJ

    OK Susan, what do you think changed between the 80s and now?

    If I may put in my $0.02 here… The Internet.

  • Oz

    Joe, good point. But how would the internet make Americans more open about asking their partners about their sexual pasts? Or how would the internet make us care more about that compared to people during and before the 80s, who according to Susan, didn’t care? OK I think I just found the answer while typing – it was the AIDS scare that did it, not the internet.

    George, ” I don’t entirely trust most women to boot.”

    Why not?

    You mentioned before you used to be “so angry” at them. Why?

  • Abbot

    “Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child”

    Is that really what men think about when feeling that nausea deep down?

    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child”

      Is that really what men think about when feeling that nausea deep down?

      No, it’s subconscious, or instinct.

  • Abbot
  • Oz

    Susan you may find this interesting.

    Jane Roe (as in Roe vs Wade): where is she now?

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/23832/on-roe-v-wade-anniversary-whatever-happened-to-jane-roe

  • Joe

    @PJ

    Joe, good point. But how would the internet make Americans more open about asking their partners about their sexual pasts? Or how would the internet make us care more about that compared to people during and before the 80s, who according to Susan, didn’t care?

    No, we don’t care any more or any less; human nature doesn’t change that quickly. We just communicate with strangers much more and with friends much more often now. The cost of idle chatter has dropped and the value of fame and notoriety (of any sort) has increased.

    I doubt that AIDS has had much to do with it. AIDS was always a problem for “The Other”, no matter who that minority community might be. It was once thought to be the concern of Haitians, remember? Although there was a lot of scare-mongering, it was never a concern of the main-stream majority here.

  • George

    “George, ” I don’t entirely trust most women to boot.”

    Why not?

    You mentioned before you used to be “so angry” at them. Why?”

    Did I say used to? I meant still do.

    Because of all the crap that’s talked about here all the time. Because of some certain ineffable qualities, I’m ineffible :p and I’m supposed to be all cool with the fact that I’ve been overlooked and alone my whole life til some reformed slut wants a nice guy to settle down with, and if I take control of my sex life I’m a cad or player or whatever. I mean you see it repeated over and over you don’t need to hear it again from me, but yeah…..all that.

    As I mentioned I have a really hard time believing these “low number women” stats b/c my experience just doesn’t bear that out. I have to say I’ve gotten much worse over the past two years. I used to at least be a friendly guy, tbh I don’t even like to engage with women that much anymore, but I want to want to. I want to lead a normal fulfilling life that involves women and sex and relationships, but it seems more like that’s been placed out of my reach and there’s nothing to really be done about it.
    ……and before some guy tells me to immerse myself further into the manosphere, that shit really just makes me sick to my stomach.

  • pvw

    @ Remo 300:

    Yes – Methodist and Episcopalian and the bent was pretty much what you expect. Born again virgins that sort of thing. Most of the “sharing” stories in the Episcopalian church had women coming up to the pulpit, admitting some very high count number, talking about how they were clean now (Jesus cures herpes?), then returning to their husbands in the pews. Quite the spectacle.

    Me: Hi, I’m Episcopalian–was raised Catholic until I ran off with the Protestants back around 1997; made it official and was received in ’02.

    I wonder, might this be a Bible Belt type thing? It sounds very evangelical, the kind of thing that sounds more Baptist, if anything.

    I’ve attended Episcopal churches in the South (college town) and the Northeast (college town and big city environments), and I haven’t noticed anything like that at all…

    In the places I have been, the culture is more of the old WASP stereotype, the “frozen chosen” type of thing, fairly middle class if not wealthy, very reserved, civic-minded and community oriented, donating to charity, being active in developing a sense of “call,” ie., ministry as a lay person, the “priesthood of believers” type of thing, moderate to liberal politically, helping the poor, one’s sexuality as a private matter, but a definite preference for long-term oriented relationships, ie., marriage and family oriented, including (among many) supporting rights for gays to marry.

    No discussion of sluts, etc., ie., a presumption that it is a non-issue? Or a presumption that n will be low upon marriage, ie., not necessarily virginal, because the primary emphasis is expected to be that one will be dating towards long term relationships.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @PJ
    My Little Cabbage, real extroversion is not “fake”. They are genuinely outgoing people.
    If someone is faking it then they are not really extroverted. (By the way, I think it was my people, not yours, who invented the tongue kiss )

    Looks like you’re turning into your rebound girl, yellow mustard, or off the med mode again…
    Most “extroverted” people I saw there simply where not genuinely extroverted, based on my own little anecdotal experience. The social interaction I witnessed was one of the most conditioned one. Incidentally, the most genuine people I met there where the more “reserved” ones. Men or women. In any case, what we define in my culture as extroverted individuals act entirely differently than over there.
    As for the French kiss stereotype……. It’s in fact a joke in France that the “anglo-saxon” culture, as we call it, uses the term “French kissing” for tongue kissing, which, in my language, is not given any nationality. A bit like the way “potato chips” turns into “French fries” in the US (or “freedom fries” when allies don’t want to obey them like servants)… Belgians hate it, as “chips” is their national passion. :-)
    As an aside, “my little cabbage” is a compliment you’d rather save for carpets. :-)

  • pvw

    Oh, and another interesting aside, the “old WASP” cultural thing among Episcopalians I know includes a lot of other people who are not WASPs, ie., they are people of color or they are of a white ethnic background, but their mentality is very bourgeois in the old WASP cultural sense, especially if they are people of color from immigrant backgrounds (striving or not), ie., middle class (especially professionals) and from the Caribbean–Barbados and Jamaica, as examples I can think of, and this includes Episcopal churches in northeastern urban environments.

  • Oz

    “No, we don’t care any more or any less; human nature doesn’t change that quickly. We just communicate with strangers much more and with friends much more often now. The cost of idle chatter has dropped and the value of fame and notoriety (of any sort) has increased.”

    Joe, we were specifically referring to asking the numbers of previous partners of our boyfriends/girlfriends, not strangers and friends. Susan said it was never asked or discussed back in her day. Some European commenters here said it was never asked nor is asked now in their cultures.

    Franco, “As an aside, “my little cabbage” is a compliment you’d rather save for carpets. ”

    Oh but I already was ;) Speaking of which, please tell me that the Brazilian wax has NOT caught on in France.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    I’ve been away for a while. Very interesting post, Susan.

    I do stand on the side that agrees that a high N lifestyle is not fulfilling and is not a good life plan.

    Some of the replies give me the impression that several of the men here think that a woman who has only ever had sex with her husband is ideal for the man. I’d like to explore this idea…Just as a mental exercise, let’s consider a hypothetical society where this is true. Women religiously stick to “don’t sleep with him unless you are 100% certain of marriage.” Where does that leave the guy? That would create a lot of pressure to get it right the very first time. What if he discovers he is not happy with her? He would have to stay with her for life, or else face a backlash from her (or her family), having been “disgraced” with an N=1. Zero room for trial and error. Divorce would probably be outlawed. Extreme consequences might be female suicide, or revenge homicides of men.

    Of course this is all hypothetical. My point isn’t to attack the desire for low N, but to question how prepared men would be for a wholesale embrace of N=1 for life.

  • Oz

    George, I know consider it my personal mission to save you. Bear with me.

    George: ” I don’t entirely trust most women to boot.”

    Me: Why not?

    You mentioned before you used to be “so angry” at them.

    George: Did I say used to? I meant still do.

    Me: Why?

    George: Because of all the crap that’s talked about here all the time.

    Me: Then STOP READING.

    Look, you are doing well. You have a 6-10 N at 32 which is above the national male average but still respectable. You also said you never had problems attracting women and that you have sex early with women who become your girlfriends. You are obviously not wanting for female attention and are at no risk of becoming incel. If its the internet that is making you “angry” at women LOG THE HELL OFF!!!!

    ” I’m supposed to be all cool with the fact that I’ve been overlooked and alone my whole life til some reformed slut wants a nice guy to settle down with”

    Puh-leeze, brah. This was NOT the picture you painted earlier here of your life.

    Can the online M-sphere really convince a happy man who’s good with women that he’s a miserable, sexless loser? Appearantly so.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @Royal W cheese
    He would have to stay with her for life, or else face a backlash from her (or her family), having been “disgraced” with an N=1. Zero room for trial and error. Divorce would probably be outlawed. Extreme consequences might be female suicide, or revenge homicides of men.
    This is not even hypothetical, but was enforced for centuries in some cultures, including my own, and still alive in some cultures south of the mediterranean sea as of today. And the consequences you mention took/take place under such a social scheme.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Damien: Thanks for that information. That type of culture is unfamiliar to me. Apparently it isn’t as hypothetical as I thought.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @PJ
    Hahaha, yes, the Brazilian wax or anything else considered different and exotic. I don’t live in France anymore, but I’m sure something like this must be a “trendy” thing going among Parisians, (those who give a bad name to our nationality outside of the borders).
    And yet as another aside, “Franco” for me means the Spanish dictator right next door from Toulouse, the very same one whose regime tortured to death one of my great uncle at the end of the spanish civil war. A bit weird for me.

  • Oz

    Damien, I thought I could at least count on French women to basque in the glory of a pelty bush.

    There was a time when European women were reknowned for sexy hairy armpits and legs. Don’t tell me Feminism has driven them all to shaving/waxing/electrolysis frenzy like it has us fiendish anti-nature Americans!

  • Damien Vulaume

    Apparently it isn’t as hypothetical as I thought.
    No, but your intuitive guess was spot on. That is why there is in my opinion no turning back on some of those men/women issues. Besides, I don’t think that this “man thing” with numbers is something natural, but rather culturally ingrained since paganism was eradicated by christianism. At least in Europe.

  • Oz

    “Besides, I don’t think that this “man thing” with numbers is something natural, but rather culturally ingrained since paganism was eradicated by christianism. At least in Europe.”

    Humanity is coming full circle. More and more people are identifying as “pagan” and other pre-Abrahamic traditions. People want to get back to their roots.
    Christian missionaries are being met with local ethnic and religious pride now and quite simply don’t know what to do about it. I mean, in their own countries (ok mostly the US since most missionaries are sent out from here) they preach “sovereignty” and “religious freedom” so when some brown natives from whatever “developing country” they “mission” to repeat the soundbytes right back atcha, they whip out their i-phones and quickly ask the “mission facilitator” how to respond.

    They also bark about Christians leaving Christianity and converting to other religions, but again, they were the ones that started all that.

  • Damien Vulaume

    @OZ/PJ
    There was a time when European women were reknowned for sexy hairy armpits and legs. Don’t tell me Feminism has driven them all to shaving/waxing/electrolysis frenzy like it has us fiendish anti-nature Americans!
    I misunderstood the wax thing. Now I see what you mean. It is going that way big time with the younger generation pretty much everywhere in Europe right now….
    But even before that, and as of today, pilosity on women was judged very differently within Europe. For example, the French always made jokes at German women having hairy legs. In turns, French southern girls where looked down in Paris or north of France for not shaving their armpits. A fascinating story of estetic preferences along the years and the regions. However, as a man, I can tell you that I grew up as a product of my own local culture/family values etc., which means that I would as of today be sort of put off or even more, disgusted by women’s hairy legs, but not by hairy armpits. Again, it’s all cultural.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Damien: Thanks for that information. That type of culture is unfamiliar to me. Apparently it isn’t as hypothetical as I thought.

    That was my culture not long ago and two things.
    a) Sex evolved as a way to reproduce is not that hard to please each other when the expectations are not soiled by “take me to the moon” ideas. Is a bit like getting used to your cuisine. I hate the way gringos eat rice and I will be damned if I eat it like that in contrast hubby hates Dominican rice (too crunchy) Lack of compatibility is a first world problem IMO.
    b) Female suicide and men’s revenges? A bit of exaggeration. Patriarchy lasted for thousands of years and there was no such a thing. I mentioned before that I had plenty of Muslim female friends back in DR and they used to mock and pity us western women for having to seek our own husbands (dating hell), having to compete with sluts, having to show out our bodies to get male attention, not having things like negotiating contracts to avoid husband’s to take another wife, having no males to represent us in the though issues… Is again a cultural thing, YMMV.

    I do want to mention that men can’t slut shame but they can shame the guys the marry the sluts. Once upon a time this helped to keep the price of sex high and the price of married down. All is balance unless you are willing to tell this guy to this his face what an idiot he has been, ignoring him, and making sure any guy understand than investing in a slut will win him no friends. Asking women to do the same with their friends is much do about nothing. As mentioned many times when the shy restricted girl see the slut getting dates and eventually the ring is hard to convince her that men do care and I know is about how hot a woman is, but as noted before women suck at telling what other men find attractive so we can’t actually tell who will get away with it and who wouldn’t so is a hard sell.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona: “Muslim female friends back in DR and they used to mock and pity us western women for having to seek our own husbands (dating hell), having to compete with sluts, having to show out our bodies to get male attention, not having things like negotiating contracts to avoid husband’s to take another wife”

    Muslims mocking and pitying anything they see as non-pious is not new, and is rarely an indicator that the mocker’s life is actually better. What does a negotiated contract to prevent taking another wife look like? What happens when the husband breaks the contact?

  • Oz

    “not having things like negotiating contracts to avoid husband’s to take another wife,”

    They need to draw up contracts to keep their husbands from taking other wives? Pity the poor souls.

    I’m even tempted to say I’ll take Christianity over Islam, and you all know how I feel about Christianity. Yes, Islam is that bad.

    ” but as noted before women suck at telling what other men find attractive so we can’t actually tell who will get away with it and who wouldn’t so is a hard sell.”

    Please.
    Symmetrical face. Clear skin. Hour glass figure.
    Its not rocket science.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I guess the bottom line is that except for the unicorn LTR only women, there are two scripts, the easy sex for the bad boy/player type and jumping through hoops and waiting for LTR types. The reality is either accept it or walk away from women period.

    If somebody had told this is how it was I at least could saved myself the self flagellation until I finally got laid @ 19. I could done something more productive with my time chasing women that wouldn’t be interested in me until 8-10 years later. I’d just gone to a sex worker on my 18th birthday. Seriously.. I wish we’d legalize prostitution to give us guys in the US a fucking break.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    What does a negotiated contract to prevent taking another wife look like?
    Is a clause in the marriage contract, a first wife prerogative.

    What happens when the husband breaks the contact?

    First do you know that a man cannot just marry in muslim culture without the whole family knowing and agreeing, is like asking what will happen if someone robs a bank.
    Here are some answers:http://islamqa.info/en/ref/108806
    Also do you have Data of the incidence of female suicide in this societies vs ours?

  • Mike C

    Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.

    VS.

    The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.

    Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.

    It is the classic Prisoner’s Dilemma

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

    Here’s the issue from the male POV. We don’t know how many Nancy’s are out there. We’ve gotten data posted here that says one thing, but then someone like Anne seems to be implying most of her friends are all high N.

    So the guy has to assume if he is being made to wait, he is being played for a fool/chump. However, this works against the woman who really is low N. At the micro level, there is no one perfect solution for any individual woman. The real solution lies at the macro level, but that isn’t going to happen for a very long time if ever. There were reasons that female sexuality had strong cultural restraints for hundreds and hundreds of years. Unchaining it has led to many problems including the dilemma you pose above because men are going to adapt to that unrestrained state, not play by the rule of the previous restrained state.

    On a different note, Tom’s ears have got to be ringing with this post :) ….I’ve skimmed through about 100+ and didn’t see any posts from him.

    Susan, this is definitely a good post to juice up the number of comments :)

  • Mike C

    *****Unless the average age of marriage comes down, young women are going to be stuck contending with this dilemma for years,*****facing the hammer of deceptive alphas on the one hand and the anvil of widespread expectations for rapid sexual escalation on the other. They basically have 3-5 dates to decide if the guy they are with is a player or not, which is a tough one when A) he himself may not totally know and B) when the legit players can wait it out a little while because they have side option FWBs and porn to help them get off in the meantime (in fact, the true player can sometimes appear to be more patient than Captain LTR Sincerity because he has this relief system available).

    Thoughts…?

    My thought is you are exactly right.

  • jack

    Most women who calls such a man “insecure” is simply trying to rationalize her own promiscuous past.

    This is typical modern female behavior – try to blame other people for your own failings.

    If it’s nothing to be ashamed of, then proudly announce to your new boyfriend that you have slept with 35 men.

    It has nothing to do with insecurity, it has to do with the fact that promiscuous women make lousy wives.

  • VD

    This sounds like a description of James Bond. I’m more used to hearing about players of the knuckleheaded douchebag variety who will promptly go enter the girl’s name on the basement whiteboard where Sex Bingo is ongoing.

    That’s the difference between the frat boy level player and the man in the Armani suit. It’s like comparing a cheap Korean import with a high-end Mercedes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      That’s the difference between the frat boy level player and the man in the Armani suit. It’s like comparing a cheap Korean import with a high-end Mercedes.

      True, but I’d say that 99% of players are of the Hyundai variety. There really aren’t all that many George Clooneys in the population.

  • jack

    Here is what I would say to high-N girls:

    You want me to marry you?

    Okay, but I should get to make the same number of mistakes you made.

    Tell ya what – how about I go visit a couple of high-dollar call girls in Nevada.

    The $2000 per night ones, and get it out of my system. Get what out of my system? Oh, banging people hotter than my spouse. Don’t worry, dear, it will be over quick, and it will soon BE IN THE PAST.

    You’re not insecure, are you?

  • Nk

    @ beta guy
    I am not a troll. My response is in relation to the views expressed in these articles. I don’t see how a ‘good’ guy is being punished if he has to wait for sex. Susan and others have expressed how it is a way of filtering out the players or time wasters. When I say wait I don’t necessary mean a long time but I don’t have a specific number. Sex to early will spoil any emotional connection if it is to develop. I’ve experiences this and seen it first hand. Why is this punishment if the guy also wants a ltr when it’s in both best interests? My number is high and I won’t be lying I anyone about it ever. Having been through my issues with therapy I know that I won’t cheat my sexual need is not some untamed beast.

  • Nk

    Jack I actually would say hey go for it.

  • Underdog

    Just throwing my story out there. I dumped this amazing girl after a year and a half of dating because her N was 9 (mine is above 30). I ended it before it could get any more serious because, at 26, I knew that I could get serious with a virgin instead of her. Nowadays, marriage is too huge a risk for men and we need to be as discerning as possible.

  • Iggles

    @ RWC:

    Of course this is all hypothetical. My point isn’t to attack the desire for low N, but to question how prepared men would be for a wholesale embrace of N=1 for life.

    I suspect American men would not happy with this if the SMP changed to this overnight. The same men who claim they want virgins also expect to sleep with women they’re dating right away – even when they have no intention of ever marrying her!

    @ PJ:

    You are obviously not wanting for female attention and are at no risk of becoming incel. If its the internet that is making you “angry” at women LOG THE HELL OFF!!!!

    George – Dude, PJ has a point! Not sure why you’re stepping into the fire..

  • taterearl

    I suppose this general take on sex is what happens when we’ve been brainwashed into thinking sex is the greatest and most valuable thing you can ever do on this earth. Sort of like a religion.

    I’ve found much more happiness and peace when I put sex in perspective. It’s almost like eating…it’s something you do for a biological need, it has some emotional value, but if you don’t moderate it…it can spiral your body into out of control behavior. Nobody places you on a throne because you can eat well…I don’t understand how doing something as easy as sex makes you an expert at life.

    That being said…more people would find happiness if they lived a life independent of what the social brainwashing tells you about the importance of sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @taterearl

      Nobody places you on a throne because you can eat well…I don’t understand how doing something as easy as sex makes you an expert at life.

      We’ve gone round and round about this at HUS. I generally refer to this as sexual gluttony. One commenter said gluttony can only apply to food, but I found this:

      (Glutton) (Deu 21:20), Heb. zolel , from a word meaning “to shake out,” “to squander;” and hence one who is prodigal, who wastes his means by indulgence. In Pro 23:21, the word means debauchers or wasters of their own body.

      IMO, the meaningless pursuit of sex as recreation or release meets that standard.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ingles: “George – Dude, PJ has a point! Not sure why you’re stepping into the fire..”

    Hasn’t been laid in two years and can’t find a girlfriend despite wanting one. That puts his “success” likely in the “I got lucky” category. While there certainly are negative elements to the manosphere, there are positive ones, and he’s certainly not going to learn from women.

    You’re only as successful as your last lay.

  • George

    “Me: Then STOP READING.

    Look, you are doing well. You have a 6-10 N at 32 which is above the national male average but still respectable. You also said you never had problems attracting women and that you have sex early with women who become your girlfriends. You are obviously not wanting for female attention and are at no risk of becoming incel. If its the internet that is making you “angry” at women LOG THE HELL OFF!!!!

    ” I’m supposed to be all cool with the fact that I’ve been overlooked and alone my whole life til some reformed slut wants a nice guy to settle down with”

    Puh-leeze, brah. This was NOT the picture you painted earlier here of your life.

    Can the online M-sphere really convince a happy man who’s good with women that he’s a miserable, sexless loser? Appearantly so.”

    Yes, as I said, I have apparently have different beliefs than most guys about this kind of thing. That doesn’t mean I’m obligated to feel a certain way about my past or potential future.

    Like I said, my problem here is agency. I don’t really feel like I have any control over this process. I just kind of am lucky enough to have girls interested in me from time to time. Like I can’t date girls I’m interested in, just who I can get. So the question shouldn’t be is my N a couple higher than the average, but should be does my situation make me happy, and the answer is no, it doesn’t. I don’t want to feel like I’m only worthy of being an emotional tampon for some girl and she’s having sex as a bargaining chip to keep me around, if she wants a relationship, meanwhile if she just wants sex she would never give me a second look. And it’s not the internet that made me angry, I was already angry and in looking for an answer to that I found a huge community of other guys who felt the same.

  • George

    So I agree though that given my circumstances, I could probably do better. It’s just that the manosphere pisses me off, and I find a lot of “game” doesn’t really sit right with me. So where can I learn that doesn’t make me feel like a douchebag.

  • Remo

    Oz said: “I’m even tempted to say I’ll take Christianity over Islam, and you all know how I feel about Christianity. Yes, Islam is that bad.”

    You likely won’t have a choice. After you’ve finished eliminating Christianity the next group likely to fill the void is Islam and snarky little “I’m right and you’re stupid because I am atheist” comments are dealt with rather violently in those societies that embrace the Prophets teachings.

  • Remo

    Susan said: “That does sound pretty wacked, but I don’t think this is common in more secular communities. We have no reason to suspect Nancy and her husband are religious, and I see no evidence at all that she would divorce him or take advantage of him in any way. She clearly loves him and loathes herself – calling herself damaged goods. I think it’s actually a very sad story. I wish they had not married, that’s the weirdest part of the story to me.”

    Actually my point was that it was coming from several different sources … even the church. You yourself note the “man up and marry those sluts” is a popular meme that seems to mirror a societal theme. It comes from some churches (at least in my experience) but from other sources as well as part of male shaming that tends to happen whenever men don’t do what women tend to want them to do. “You shouldn’t judge me!!!” translates to “I want to be married and/or happy so you are bad for this bothering you”.

    Right now she is not inclined to divorce him and take advantage of him but really this is looking at the situation as it exists today not what is likely later on. If this problem continues do you really believe she will be accepting of it 3, 5, 10 years from now? When she is tired of it you don’t think she would savage him in a divorce when on average women tend to do this and are actively encouraged to do so by all parties? Men aren’t just imaging the divorce apparatus Susan, it is a real threat. My view is that because he can’t forgive her that eventually things will turn sour – indeed if he can’t they almost certainly will. When this happens he will face very severe punishments – not today but later – and if he really can’t get over this – and he must in order to continue the marriage – why wait until his pain is magnified 1000x fold to end it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      You yourself note the “man up and marry those sluts” is a popular meme that seems to mirror a societal theme.

      AFAIK, it’s only a popular meme in the manosphere. I have never heard it elsewhere, IRL, in other media, etc.

      If this problem continues do you really believe she will be accepting of it 3, 5, 10 years from now? When she is tired of it you don’t think she would savage him in a divorce when on average women tend to do this and are actively encouraged to do so by all parties?

      Please provide data that “on average” women savage men in divorce. If you cannot do so, abandon those claims.

      How do you define savage?

      What percentage of divorce settlements are negotiated in court?

      What percentage of divorces distribute assets unfairly, i.e. not 50/50?

      What percentage of divorces provide alimony? What is the average term?

      What percentage of divorced fathers pay child support? How are those amounts calculated?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    How does one spot a female virgin then ?

    Well, on page 282 of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology written by R.N Karmakar, and also on pages 314/315 of Principles of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology written by Rajesh Bardale, there does seem to be a good indicator for virginity in … wait for it …

    The breasts.

    To wit :

    Extragenital Indicators of Virginity are :

    1) Small breasts.
    2) Hemispherical.
    3) Elastic, firm and rounded.
    4) Small pointed nipples.
    5) Pink to dark areolas surrounding the nipples depending on race.
    6) With frequent handling the breasts become large and flabby.

    But this sounds too good to be true.

    Are there any Western textbooks that corroborates this ? I couldn’t find any.

    How does this account for high testosterone levels in some women (2d:4d) ?

    Is there anybody that can shed some more light on this ?

    VD ?
    Zach ?
    YaReally ?

    Anyway, you can really discombobulate a woman with this, if she criticizes you for staring at her breasts.

    Her : Thou art one sweinen-hundt und morbid mollusc measuring me mammaries !!!

    Him : Thou stroppy wench und proper woman, Dr Rajesh says thou art a virgin !

    Her : By thine addled reasonings, thou art one bloody virgin as well !!!

    Him : Then thou must inflate mine mammaries, and husband my apologies into existence, by countenancing my reciprocations !!!

  • Ted D

    YaReally – “For a nice normal respectable guy like, say, Ted (no offense dude), how often does he turn down sex from women? Especially hot women? When he’s single? A few times in his life MAYBE? So his promiscuity ratio is like 6 bangs per 10 offers for sex say, and those 10 offers are in his whole life because normal guys don’t generally get propositioned for sex by hotties.”

    First off no offense taken. Second, I spent a good chuck of my early 20’s touring with some local to regionally known rock/metal bands. I had plenty of opportunities for “groupie sex”, but frankly most of those women skeeved me out. I couldn’t imagine how many guys they’d blown in bathroom stalls or fucked in the back of a van, and it completely turned me off. I used to literally shove them in the direction of the other band guys and go find somewhere else to be.

    Furthermore, I have never once in my entire life had “casual” sex of any kind. No HJ’s, no BJ’s, and certainly nothing more. The closest I’ve come to a casual hookup was when my first LTR mate and I “hooked up” once AFTER we broke up. We both felt like total shit afterwards and I told her it wouldn’t happen again.

    Oz – “Its not a matter of treating him worse or better. Its giving him what he wants.”

    Bullshit. If that’s the case, NK should keep her pants on since clearly most guys “want” a low N woman. She IS treating him worse, because she is making him jump through hoops when she let other guys go for the gold right away. The guy looking for an LTR won’t mind waiting, IF she made every other guy wait as well. If not? Then my suggestion is for NK to move on and leave that poor guy alone to find a woman with more moral fiber than she has.

    “I guess they’ve never had a woman who had the early hots for them AND have a relationship with them simultaneously.”

    In truth, my current wife is the first woman I’ve experienced this with. Don’t get me wrong, my other LTR mates were attracted to me, and I to them. But none of them had that “instant” attraction for me, and I didn’t notice them immediately. Basically we grew on each other.

    I’ve said elsewhere here at HUS (I think LOL) that having experienced this level of attraction from a woman, I would NEVER again bother with a woman I had to “build” attraction with. Sure, it can work, and I’ve lived it so I know it can. IMO a relationship with a woman that is VERY physically attracted from the start is WAY different than with a woman that “grows” to be attracted to you. The flip side? Women that react so strongly on the physical side of the fence tend to be rather unrestricted. Which means higher N most of the time.

  • Escoffier

    “I can honestly say that I have never heard, nor heard of anyone shaming a guy into chilling out about a woman’s sexual history, other than from online manginas.”

    This is quite astounding to me as, in some respects our ciricles are the same, but in the respects where they differ, I would expect you to hear it more than I have, and I have heard it a lot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is quite astounding to me as, in some respects our ciricles are the same, but in the respects where they differ, I would expect you to hear it more than I have, and I have heard it a lot.

      In what context? Perhaps it is different when discussing peers vs. kids? I’ve only ever heard the conversation as it relates to young people. Do you know anyone with teenagers or older who would proudly claim they have a sexually uninhibited daughter?

  • Underdog
  • Escoffier

    So, re: lying. It’s really not so simple to say that, the more men voice their concern about N, the more women are encouraged to lie.

    First, you have the problem of conscience and guilt. Extreme sphere-ites aside, most of us will recognize that lots of women actually do have conciences and will feel guilt over maintaining a lie. This guilt will not be good for their long term mental health nor will it be pleasant for them to live with.

    But even if we stipulate that pefect, guilt-free liars are common among women, there is another problem. If she knows that he wants a low-N girl, that she is not such a girl, and that the only reason she is with him is because he believes she is, she will know that his apparent respect is a sham. Even if she is never troubled by the immorality of the lie, the knowledge that her husband/BF has a low opinion of what she really is will erode her own self-confidence and sense of self worth. Basically, she knows that she is X and he despises X, hence, if he knew the truth, he would despise her.

    On top of that, duping someone is in essense to DHV over them. It’s hard for her to feel that he is worthy, dominant in the good sense, when she knows that she has fooled him over something that is important to him. She will inevitably come to see him as a dupe, a tool, a lesser being than what she actually desires.

    All this is a recipe for disaster over the long term even if she could maintain the lie forever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      First, you have the problem of conscience and guilt. Extreme sphere-ites aside, most of us will recognize that lots of women actually do have conciences and will feel guilt over maintaining a lie. This guilt will not be good for their long term mental health nor will it be pleasant for them to live with.

      Yes, which is precisely the case with Nancy.

      Even if she is never troubled by the immorality of the lie, the knowledge that her husband/BF has a low opinion of what she really is will erode her own self-confidence and sense of self worth. Basically, she knows that she is X and he despises X, hence, if he knew the truth, he would despise her.

      Yup.

      It’s hard for her to feel that he is worthy, dominant in the good sense, when she knows that she has fooled him over something that is important to him. She will inevitably come to see him as a dupe, a tool, a lesser being than what she actually desires.

      All really good points about why lying really doesn’t work well.

      Also, it’s clear from Nancy’s comment that her boyfriend was uncomfortable with her original answer – he knew something was off. It sounds like he bought her first revision, probably because it was a high number. I’m not sure how much difference a jump of 10 makes – I guess it depends on the base. But it sounds like he was most upset about the fact that her N was high at all, and that she lied about it.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Underdog, #501

    I put that song on my FB wall. Thanks.

  • chris

    “Men who have a problem with a women’s sexual history are merely insecure.”

    This statement seems to be implying one of two things via the term “insecure”;
    ai) Men who have a problem with a women’s sexual history aren’t real men/are unmasculine.
    aii) Men who have a problem with a women’s sexual history fail to live up to notions of masculinity.

    Lets look at ai.
    Studies show that more androgenised men, that is men who have been bathed in testosterone in the womb and are hence more manly or masculine men, are more likely to have a problem with a female partners sexual escapades than those men who have more feminised brain structures via receiving less testosterone in the womb.

    Here is one such study:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911001413

    Since it is paygated you can visit this site for a brief rundown on it.
    http://inductivist.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/prenatal-testosterone-and-sexual.html

    aii) Following on from ai we can see that an aversion to the sexual escapades of a potential long-term female partner by a male is not evidence of a lack of masculinity but is instead evidence of the masculinity itself the notion that men who have a problem with a women’s sexual history fail to live up to notions of masculinity is absurd.

    If insecurity is a failure to live up to masculine ideals and masculinity results in men have an aversion to the sexual escapades of a potential long-term female partner by a male than the only way to reconcile these two points is to categorise this aversion not as an insecurity but instead as a masculine strength. It is manly to reject sluts. (Before you get all angry, just remember that this psychological mechanism in men would also prevent some future harlot cuckolding your own sweet and adorable son or grandson one day, and you can’t tell me than you owe a greater sense of loyalty to some strange woman you’ve never met over your own children.)

  • Escoffier

    I think we need to stop responding to the “you are insecure” argument and just ridicule it. It’s not meant seriously, it’s just a defense mechanism, a knee-jerk response from high-N women and the men stuck with them to bludgeon the rest of us into acceptance. It’s not therefore amenable to a reasoned response.

  • chris

    I probably should elaborate from above that the notions or ideals of masculinity that I had in mind were one’s such as; It is manly to endure those things you don’t like, or it is manly to endure suffering.

  • Madelena

    I concur with the observations of most women here. High N girls have other qualities that make them very attractive to all sorts of men. The contrast between what men say they want (low N) and how they act when it comes to entering LTRs with unrestricted women is far too great for me to pay it too much mind.

    The priority characteristics for a young woman entering the SMP is to be attractive, charming, open and friendly. All manner of sins, including a high N, will be forgiven if she has those qualities.

    If she is naturally restricted, then she should be true to herself and keep her integrity by being very selective with who she sleeps with. If she is more unrestricted and tends to be attracted fast, then she should do what she wants to do. As we can observe, her chances of entering a LTR with a qualiy man is far greater than her more restricted sister’s.

    As someone with a low N, the thought of being asked how many men I slept with used to cause me angst, because in this SMP a low N is associated with excessive religiosity or some sort of weirdness or damage, all undesirable traits. It’s more favourable to be a woman with a high N than a woman with a low N, and in that vien I simply opted to refuse to answer that question the few times it came up – same strategy that a woman with high N can take by the way.

    My bf didn’t ask me and I didn’t ask him (I know he has a past), although he has an idea based on the length of time it took before we slept together.

  • chris

    “I think we need to stop responding to the “you are insecure” argument and just ridicule it. It’s not meant seriously, it’s just a defense mechanism, a knee-jerk response from high-N women and the men stuck with them to bludgeon the rest of us into acceptance. It’s not therefore amenable to a reasoned response.”

    The best rhetorical response is;

    “and I suppose your refusal to marry a homeless bum would naturally be a product of your insecurity as well. You just can’t handle a strong independent non-conformist man!™”

  • Ted D

    Chris – ““and I suppose your refusal to marry a homeless bum would naturally be a product of your insecurity as well. You just can’t handle a strong independent non-conformist man!™””

    Freaking brilliant! Hope you don’t mind that I’m probably going to use this going forward. ;-)

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob

    My experience has been that very promiscuous woman are narcissistic. I’ve also found promiscuous men are the same (“Alpha” really means “cad”).

    They lack empathy, which makes everything about them. I’ve found they can’t love, either. They can desperately need the only person, but they don’t wish the best for them, which I think is a pretty good definition of love.

  • Sasha

    @INTJ

    Yes, 8 years ended, it was sad, but needed to be done. I think I was in it about 3 years too long. But alas, I have moved on. I have a low N because I have been selective and have a lot of willpower, and I was in such a long relationship. I kind of fear getting back out there because I feel like I have been out of the loop. I want to continue to be selective, but I do live in a large liberal city, so it may very well be a challenge!

    One thing my ex said to me, recently, was that he would never find anyone else like me, meaning, my age with my N in this city, and thus he was no longer interested in looking for someone to marry but just women to have fun with. He said it was my upbringing, I am from the South. Now, I don’t know about that, because I grew up around plenty of sluts, I just chose not to emulate them. I was also a late bloomer as far as looks and confidence go, so that was definitely part of it as well.

    The ex does have a lot of psychological and emotional issue to work through, A LOT, but that was the first inkling I have heard of that. I guess that I never really thought about it.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, you can call this semantic if you want, but the Great Tradition has a word for sexual gluttony: lust. Why not just use that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, you can call this semantic if you want, but the Great Tradition has a word for sexual gluttony: lust. Why not just use that?

      Lust is the desire, and gluttony is the indulgence of that base desire. Lust is not about self-control or character, gluttony is.

  • Abbot

    “men are going to adapt to that unrestrained state”

    Then on its on men to weed out the multi penised.

    .

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I can honestly say that I have never heard, nor heard of anyone shaming a guy into chilling out about a woman’s sexual history, other than from online manginas.”

    +1. You forgot women however. See 2nd comment on thread.
    But yes, out in the real world where there isn’t a screen in between you and the attacker, said attacker tends to chill out rather quickly.

    The ‘you need to accept her for who she is’ is always said in an indirect manner. (Ex.’s fat acceptance) No one, man or woman, has the balls to directly tell a person that they should accept X or Y (or a specific person) to their face (except maybe VD).

  • Abbot

    “It has nothing to do with insecurity, it has to do with the fact that promiscuous women make lousy wives.”

    In the near term, it has more to do with not committing to a woman if you’re not getting that “she belongs to me” feeling

  • taterearl

    Yup gluttony isn’t just food…I mean we’ve heard the saying “glutton for punishment”.

    But I do like some of the older songs about slut shaming.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20f-TPKjzc

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Honestly, I am amazed that a lot of the women are taking the message as “men will accept high N therefore it doesn’t matter and if it does you can just lie.”

    How are you guys judging “accept”? That there is a long-term relationship? That there is a marraige?

    Other red-pill concept: The SMP never, ever ends. Ever. Even when you are married, you are still in competititon with other people. Sorry, them’s the breaks. Your husband will still be in contact with other women, and if you screw up, he will divorce you or cheat on you or you will have a miserable marriage.

    Your high N, if he dislikes it…yeah, he may “accept” it. But picture your marriage as a suit of armor against the rest of the SMP. Yeah, it’s tough. But now there is a chink in it. A BIG chink, right where your husband’s heart is. Yeah, you may be fine now, but if your marriage is under assault, there’s that chink right there, DIRECTLY to his deepest emotions, and it’s there because….

    You wanted a casual sex orgasm.

    Dumb choice. You sacrifice nothing by giving up casual sex, and you are taking a lot of chances by engaging in it.

    Even if there’s a ring…

    The Game Never Ends. TGNE!

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    ADBG @ 529

    A BIG chink, right where your husband’s heart is. Yeah, you may be fine now, but if your marriage is under assault, there’s that chink right there, DIRECTLY to his deepest emotions, and it’s there because….

    ******You wanted a casual sex orgasm.*******

    Dumb choice. You sacrifice nothing by giving up casual sex, and you are taking a lot of chances by engaging in it.

    Even if there’s a ring…

    The Game Never Ends. TGNE!

    Boom. Headshot. Your comment should become a post in and of itself.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “True, but we are utterly incapable of making good choices and anticipating consequences. I say let nature take its course.”

    I agree.

    “In particular, what I mean is that it’s pointless to tell men to evolve away from caring about women’s sexual histories, or to tell women they need to evolve past caring about status.”

    You can’t tell people to ignore it to make evolution happen. Snip, snips, bullets and sterility would be the only method.
    Ex. The only way to make men not have a visceral base reaction to high N would be to remove all the guys who cared about it from the gene pool. Telling them to man up won’t change the base genetic code. The reaction will still be there, just papered over in subsequent generations.

    Which is of course why I am against eugenics.

    Also,

    Most people are incapable of making good choices. Not all.

  • taterearl

    @ADBG…that is the thread winner!

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Chris @ 515

    The best rhetorical response is;

    “and I suppose your refusal to marry a homeless bum would naturally be a product of your insecurity as well. You just can’t handle a strong independent non-conformist man!™”

    Boom. Headshot.. part duex.

    Marry? A homeless guy? But my hypergamy demands that i get the best possible man who can provide for my offspring and keep us safe and secure and will not leave me for another woman.

    Ooooooh that’s a lot of insecurities ya got there missy…

  • Ted D

    “In the near term, it has more to do with not committing to a woman if you’re not getting that “she belongs to me” feeling”

    And the more men a woman has slept with, the harder it is for her future husband to feel that sense of her “belonging” to him and ONLY to him. For me it is a crucial piece of the relationship puzzle, right up there with love and respect. I need her to respect me, I need her to love me, and I need her to completely belong to me. Yes, a woman with previous partners CAN belong to me, but she also belonged to them at one point, whether she feels that way or not, it is how I see it.

    ADBG – @ 529 – thank you!

    I’ve been sitting here stewing since reading NK’s first comment and couldn’t figure out how to write my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it, and in a way that is MUCH less angry and bitter sounding than anything I could have written. And I agree with M3, absolutely epic comment.

  • Abbot

    “I think we need to stop responding to the “you are insecure” argument and just ridicule it. It’s not meant seriously, it’s just a defense mechanism, a knee-jerk response from high-N women and the men stuck with them to bludgeon the rest of us into acceptance.”

    Do the high-N women really believe its insecurity or are they using it to shame you into “compliance?”

    .

  • Just1Z

    @Susan
    “Really? Why? Does it matter where the semen ends up? Face, spit out, in her tummy?”

    prolonged exposure to the ejaculate by a moist and receptive membrane would be ‘best’, I would suspect, viz vag, mouth as opposed to stomach acid / bare skin.

    Can’t believe that you didn’t come (ha-ha) across this information yourself.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201101/attention-ladies-semen-is-antidepressant

    see – it is science at its best

    Semen is best known for what’s not absorbed by the vagina, sperm, which swim through it on their way into the fallopian tubes where fertilization takes place. But sperm comprise only about 3 percent of semen. The rest is seminal fluid: mostly water, plus about 50 compounds: sugar (to nourish sperm), immunosuppressants (to keep women’s immune systems from destroying sperm), and oddly, two female sex hormones, and many mood-elevating compounds: endorphins, estrone, prolactin, oxytocin, thyrotrpin-releasing hormone, and serotonin.

    Vaginal tissue is very absorptive. It’s richly endowed with blood and lymph vessels. Given vaginal absorptiveness and all the mood-elevating compounds in found in semen, Gallup, Burch, and SUNY colleague Steven Platek wondered if semen exposure might be associated with better mood and less depression. They surveyed 293 college women at SUNY Albany about intercourse with and without condoms, and then gave the women the Beck Depression Inventory, a standard test of mood. Compared with women who “always” or “usually” used condoms, those who “never” did, whose vaginas were exposed to semen, showed significantly better mood–fewer depressive symptoms, and less bouts of depression. In addition, compared to women who had no intercourse at all, the semen-exposed women showed more elevated mood and less depression.

    look at the lengths we men go to to make you women like sex…we’re soooo good to you

    you (all of you, both sexes) owe me a beer for providing this great news.

    remember – don’t be so quick to swallow / douche.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1Z

      I’m well acquainted with the benefits of absorbing semen, I’ve just never seen the concept applied to fellatio. Seems like a stretch.

  • Madelena

    @Anacoana
    What does a negotiated contract to prevent taking another wife look like?
    Is a clause in the marriage contract, a first wife prerogative.

    What happens when the husband breaks the contact?

    First do you know that a man cannot just marry in muslim culture without the whole family knowing and agreeing, is like asking what will happen if someone robs a bank.

    My response:
    I don’t want to take this to a different topic but the clause to prevent the taking of another wife is not enforceable at all in countries that have Muslim law as the basis of their legal system. These laws tend to not be codified and it is usually up to the interpretation of the officiating sheik, most of whom will declate the clause illegal because of the reasoning “if the Koran permits more than one wife then who is this woman to prevent it?”.
    What women can do is put a clause in to get a divorce if the man takes another wife. That is because the process of divorce is very drawn out, with very little chance of receiving any sort of support, if initiated by the woman. It’s much faster if the man initiates it hence the reason for the clause. A lot of women would much rather divorce than live with the knowledge of another wife, even in a society that devalues divorced women.

    I know this because my family lived in the Middle East (Gulf area) for a long time and we got familiar with legal system due to various first and second hand divorce cases.
    The system is very patriarichal (I always laugh when Western feminists talk about “the patriarchy”) and divorce laws are extremely favourable to men.

    To tie this back to the topic at hand, I was raised in an environment where slut shaming was all too real and taken to a pathological extreme. The cult of virginity was very strong, due to the absolute lack of premarital sex The lack of premarital sex is due to repressive sexual attitudes, coupled with gender segregation and a shame-based culture that places the burden of behaviour on women, all of which combine to cause extremely toxic societal behaviours that are rarely addressed nor discussed. The penalties for having sex outside the bonds of marriage are severe (for women) and I attribute that upbringing in partially shaping my restricted nature.

    I recall a story of a young engaged couple in one of the GCC countries, which was a tad unusual as arranged marriages where the couple don’t spend any time together is still normal. In any case, the young engaged couple had liberal families who allowed them to spend time together. The understanding was they were going to get married in a few months time. Both were in love with each other. The boy, being a male, started to push for more and more physical escalation. The girl would acquiese a little then withdraw. In this way, hand holding, kissing, necking, started to be part of their repertoire.
    Finally, the young man started to push for sex, putting the case forth that he desires the young lady so much, and they are already engaged to be married, and what does it matter if they do it now, versus if they do it later when they’re married, and so on and so on…The young lady resisted and resisted but she also desired him and his arguments made sense to her and weren’t they going to be married anyways? So she slept with him and it was very nice for both of them.
    Not even two weeks later, the engagement was off. The young man was bothered by how the young lady relented towards him, and in his mind, if she relented towards him then she would have relented towards anyone else who pushed. Everyone else agreed with his rationale. The girl was ruined.
    This story was told to me and my friends when we were very young as a cautionary tale to never give in until the wedding night.
    It never occured to any of us to ask why the man didn’t get ruined either. Slut shaming is a one way street, unfortunately.

  • Escoffier

    “Lust is the desire, and gluttony is the indulgence of that base desire. Lust is not about self-control or character, gluttony is”

    No, not really. That’s modern usage. The religious tradition distinguishes between passion, which can be good if satisfied through marriage, and lust, which is always a sin.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s modern usage.

      I’m a modern girl.

  • Escoffier

    “Do you know anyone with teenagers or older who would proudly claim they have a sexually uninhibited daughter?”

    No.

    But–when I went through this with my college GF, I voiced my concern to a few people, some of them adults, and I did get an earful of “Why should the past matter?”

    Plus, I have seen fathers of daughters not exactly celebrate their unchasteness but get indignant at the suggestion that it might impugn their character. Not directly–no one will say to a man “your daughter is a slut” but if the topic ever comes up in a general way, a father of a high-achieving UMC girl who is either known or suspected to have slept around will indignantly defend promiscuity as “normal” because he thinks he is defending the character of his daughter. Similarly, he might attack those men who dare to say it’s wrong or low or undesirable.

    It’s precisely because no man wants to think that his daughter is a slut that men of a certain generation are complicit in normalizing slut-hood or, at the very least, in pushing up the N at which slut-hood becomes undeniable.

  • Just1Z

    p.s.
    the fellatio recommendation may have come from other articles rather than the one I just linked to.

    The takeaway?

    Spunky women are happy women.

  • JuTR

    Insecurity is shaming language today, but being insecure about being cuckolded or more recently, divorce-raped, is simply wise judgement. Ignoring a woman’s promiscuous past is akin to ignoring her values before committing your future, resources, and potential progeny to her discretion.

    I wonder if women are considered insecure if they want a tall, strong man? It used to be necessary for defense of home and hearth, and yet, few women need that today with the daddy state covering all bases. I wonder why men don’t ridicule women who want a guy that is taller than her, or stronger, or not a coward in the face of adversity.

    I’m not religious, but I got the message that your sexuality was a gift you gave to the one you wanted to spend the rest of your life with. I wanted a virgin, but by the time I had built enough value to get what I wanted instead of the scraps I would be forced to accept, I found that there were no acceptable candidates. I had the willpower and self control to decline liaisons with women who did not meet my standards for wife material. Of course, being ignored through high school, and college made this somewhat easier than for attractive people, but I had plenty of chances after college, but none with women that I considered my SMV/MMV equal.

    So now that I made it through the rush of hormones, clear eyed at the fact that marriage is distinctly inadvantageous to men, a high count woman is just a risk that I’m not willing to take. Call me insecure, I’ll wear the hat.

  • taterearl

    There is a difference between insecurity and prudence.

    Insecurity is a lack of confidence.
    Prudence is using good judgement so that you don’t end up in bad situations. A very confident trait.

    Men who avoid high N women in marriage are prudent. Women who need causal sex to validate themselves or rope a man into a relationship are insecure.

  • Madelena

    @ADBG
    Your high N, if he dislikes it…yeah, he may “accept” it. But picture your marriage as a suit of armor against the rest of the SMP. Yeah, it’s tough. But now there is a chink in it. A BIG chink, right where your husband’s heart is. Yeah, you may be fine now, but if your marriage is under assault, there’s that chink right there, DIRECTLY to his deepest emotions, and it’s there because….

    You wanted a casual sex orgasm.

    Dumb choice. You sacrifice nothing by giving up casual sex, and you are taking a lot of chances by engaging in it.

    My response:

    The women who are responding here tend to be for the most part, restricted, low N women. I cannot speak for all of them but I WISH men would actually choose to partner or enter long term relationships with restricted low N women. However, that is NOT what we’re seeing. You’re asking us to believe you or our lying eyes. I choose to believe my lying eyes.

    We are describing the reality of the SMP as we experience it. That is, that despite all of the sound and the fury of how horrible high N women are and how men are viscrerally repulsed by them, etc, etc, we see that the high N count is NOT A BARRIER to an LTR/marriage if the woman can fulfill other criterias that the man needs.

    You youself stated that your gf was promiscious (as per your standards) but you chose to be her because she fulfilled your OTHER high standards (if you’re not the guy I’m thinking of then apologies). Same with Ted. Nancy landed a high qaulity guy even though he went into the marriage with his eyes wide open.

    So even for men who require very low N women, they still opted for high N women to partner with and wife up which tells us that you overlooked the high N because she brought other things to the table. This means high N is not a factor, if the girl has other attributes you like.

    The risk for the restricted girl is that she is left on the shelf longer than her more promiscious sisters, a lot who do VERY WELL for themselves in this SMP. I wish that weren’t the case but it is.

    Again, should I believe what you say or what you (and so many other men) do?

  • Cooper

    +2

    To everything George is saying

  • Escoffier

    Well, in addition to being “modern” I would also call it “incorrect” and an example of how changes in language corrupt precise thinking. But I am fastidious that way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, in addition to being “modern” I would also call it “incorrect” and an example of how changes in language corrupt precise thinking. But I am fastidious that way.

      You don’t say. :P

      Seriously, I am in the camp of enjoying the evolution of language, the creation of new words, etc. Yes, it’s a bastardization, but it’s also one way of enhancing communication.

      In my mind, the idea of sexual gluttony – a mindless gorging on sex without the ability to stop – is far more colorful and descriptive than “lust.” Jimmy Carter took all the fun out of lust.

      Also, as you have so eloquently argued, what one thinks about sex is very different from actually indulging base desires. Sexual gluttony implies crossing the line from lust to misdeeds.

  • J

    Yup. Unfortunately, the traditional options are a lot more limited than I’d like. Kinda feel jealous about my friends in India who get to complain about dating culture and actually have a good alternative…

    I wish there was more of that in America. People go on and on about “chemistry,” but it’s things like character and common values that make a marriage or not.

  • taterearl

    “I cannot speak for all of them but I WISH men would actually choose to partner or enter long term relationships with restricted low N women. ”

    Well as a man I wish they would too. But when does a lady usually tell the guy how many guys she’s been with. Early on or until she has hooked him.

    Again what most women don’t get is that there are a lot of guys with no concept of game who luck into getting these women. Some feel that a high N woman is better than bachelorhood or they can’t do any better. A bad option to them is better than no option. The problem with that is the man’s happiness is the result of a woman’s validation…and he’d take any old whore’s validation. The concept of outcome independence and making my happiness independent of what women think of me leads to rejecting high N women easier. Men you want peace…think in those terms.

  • Just1Z

    @George

    I said I don’t know how to respond, not I don’t understand. Once again I’m new here and I’m just getting the terminology but isn’t this basically the very definition of price discrimination. I’ve definitely had women who I knew were doing this to me in the past and that is when you don’t walk but RUN away. I’m supposed to be happy to work for what she freely does with other men at the drop of a hat b/c she likes me more? This is the type of behavior that makes men and women so adversarial towards each other when it comes to dating in the first place. Congrats on being part of the problem instead of the solution.

    Congratulations, you may be new here, but you have the diagnosis of Oz / PJ / Plain-Jane accurately enough.

    Having been away for a while (her and me), I’m somewhat happy that she’s okay…somewhat happy. But as usual she blathers on ignoring the facts that don’t fit her viewpoint (low N having no no value to men…yeah, right). This usually ramps up over time until she gets banned (or takes her meds). She’s currently at Peej-con 2, so we have a while before the ban hammer gets to fall, I guess. But then I’m still catching up on the comments, so maybe I’m out of date?

  • Anne

    @Ted D
    ” Yes, a woman with previous partners CAN belong to me, but she also belonged to them at one point, whether she feels that way or not, it is how I see it.”

    Most people fall in love more than once in their lives. That’s normal. Almost everybody will have belonged to someone else at some point. Men don’t seem to be drawn to independent women either – women who love generously will at some point have loved someone else, or several other men.
    I don’t think this is the actual reasons why you want a low N woman though. If her “belonging” to someone else is the difficult part, then a woman who’s been deeply in love with and have had sex with 3 men would be far more threatening than a woman who’s had meaningless sex with 10 men. But most men consider a higher N worse. They don’t care about “belonging” or emotions, they’re just afraid of being compared to other men in bed. That’s completely understandable to me, just be honest about it.

  • OTC

    Madalena, it means the high N isn’t just the past the dealbreaker threshold. You’re trying to extrapolate that into meaning N is irrelevant entirely. Even good old Tom, our favourite sex positive man, has a threshold of around 40

    You can pretend n doesn’t matter in practice to you, because you can just go find a man with a different threshold.

    Finally, don’t make me look up statistics. Women’s median n is three. I bet there are correlations between married versus unmarried.

  • Abbot

    “But most men consider a higher N worse. They don’t care about “belonging” or emotions, they’re just afraid of being compared to other men in bed. That’s completely understandable to me, just be honest about it.”

    Afraid as in fear? Well, no. Men just don’t get strong justification to commit in the first place. No point in complicating this with the ol canard “afraid of being compared.” Its entirely about specialness. Commitment is special. Therefore only a special person qualifies. For men, most experienced having to put in significant effort to obtain sex from women so in their minds her sex has value. Men equate sex to value. Men feel good when they know that all past men valued it similarly. Having three prior strong relationships is MUCH preferred over a dozen or so cheap thrills.

  • Ian

    Divining Real N from freely given information:

    “How old are you?” – “How long was your longest relationship?” – 15 (Low-average age of sex debut) = Unaccounted-for Years.

    For each category below, add one for a positive answer, subtract one for negative. If homeschooled and under the age of 22, subtract two. For science majors, multiply by zero.

    (Pretty or large-breasted) +/-
    (Mannish or bubbly) +/-
    (Humanities or Business/Law major) +/-
    (Paternal angst or drug use) +/-
    (Hidden tattoo or smoker) = Partner Per Year Multiplier.

    Unaccounted Years x PPY = Concern Index.

    23 years old – 6 year relationship – 15 childhood years = 2 unaccounted years. Pretty, bubbly, Accounting major, good home, no tattoos, does not drink. PPY = 2. Concern: N = 4.

    29 years old – 2 year relationship – 15 = 7 unaccounted years. Large breasts, bubbly, lawyer, divorced parents, smokes. PPY = 5. Concern: N = 35

    And, solved.

  • J

    @Marellus

    Extragenital Indicators of Virginity are :

    1) Small breasts.
    2) Hemispherical.
    3) Elastic, firm and rounded.
    4) Small pointed nipples.
    5) Pink to dark areolas surrounding the nipples depending on race.
    6) With frequent handling the breasts become large and flabby.

    But this sounds too good to be true.

    That’s only because it is too good to be true. The above traits correlate with youth, and youth used to correlate with virginity. “Large and flabby” breasts correlate with age and weight. I’ve known a few elderly virgins, including one who habitually went braless, who were indeed large and flabby.

  • chris

    @Anne

    Your viewing ‘belonging’ through the female lens of emotions, he is talking about ‘belonging’ through the male lens of sexuality.

  • J

    Peej-con 2
    LOL

  • SayWhaat

    I wish there was more of that in America. People go on and on about “chemistry,” but it’s things like character and common values that make a marriage or not.

    Speaking of traditional arrangements, one of my best friends just got engaged!!!!

    Three months ago her mom gave her this guy’s number and told her she should talk to him. They clicked, and now she’s getting married within the year!

    I can’t believe it. She’s like a sister to me. This is going to be so bittersweet…

  • Tasmin

    @taterearl
    +1
    ADBG @ 529
    +1

    Those two concepts need to be absorbed. Acceptance does not mean something doesn’t matter. Men may not be constantly told to “man up” and marry the high N woman, but there is the low hum of sexually liberated women, a strong and prevalent hookup scene, an everpresent sexualized culture, and a hellova lot of rationalization that gets tossed around, including in person – coming from high N women (should it ever come up).

    There are a lot – a lot of men like George who are having a difficult time reconciling what they see on the street, in social circles, in college, in media, with some CDC data or other smoothing sources regarding sexual partners. Throw in a bit of lucky experience that includes immediate sex and those guys who don’t have a clear and confident view of their options (call it SMV or confidence/dominance, it doesn’t matter) are going to believe that low N women who would also be interested in them are approaching unicorn status. These guys will prioritize the bird in hand over their own feelings regarding her N.

  • chris

    “They don’t care about “belonging” or emotions, they’re just afraid of being compared to other men in bed.”

    I just realised something. The reason so many women assume that the reason men don’t want high N women is because they fear being compared to other men in bed, is because that is what women would fear when being with a high N man.

    Women and men are not the same. The way women feel about mating dynamics cannot be projected upon the way men feel about mating dynamics and vice versa. There are NUMEROUS psychological studies to attest to this.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I recall a story of a young engaged couple in one of the GCC countries, which was a tad unusual as arranged marriages where the couple don’t spend any time together is still normal. In any case, the young engaged couple had liberal families who allowed them to spend time together. The understanding was they were going to get married in a few months time. Both were in love with each other. The boy, being a male, started to push for more and more physical escalation. The girl would acquiese a little then withdraw. In this way, hand holding, kissing, necking, started to be part of their repertoire.
    Finally, the young man started to push for sex, putting the case forth that he desires the young lady so much, and they are already engaged to be married, and what does it matter if they do it now, versus if they do it later when they’re married, and so on and so on…The young lady resisted and resisted but she also desired him and his arguments made sense to her and weren’t they going to be married anyways? So she slept with him and it was very nice for both of them.

    First you just copy-pasted one of the explanations of the lead I provided and made a “sad story” but for the sake of the audience…

    Your claim is very unlikely. Spending time with no chaperone for what reason? After the agreement is done there is no reason to spent any time, specially alone. Most muslims know that this is stupid and dangerous you want the kids away from sin not in its presence.
    Second lets imagine that everyone on both families was that stupid the manosphere is made of guys screwed up by women in all sorts of ways the plural of Data is not anecdote.
    And finally I can match your anecdotes with several of wives that I met with all sorts of clauses that they had no fear of not getting like the number of kids or asking to study and become doctors (the reason they were in my country) and I knew a particular one that studying was a sort of cover for the fact that she had issues to conceive and his husband and her were spending a lot of money secretly to have her have a baby so he wasn’t pressured by his family to annul the marriage, something that is considered reasonable even in western cultures, in because you know he loved her and didn’t wanted another bride. Yeah people fell in love in other cultures, shocking I know.
    I heard women in other cultures also have orgasm even, but there is no proof of that everyone knows feminism invented orgasm. /sarcasm mode off.

  • J

    @Magdelena #538

    That’s a hell of a story. I’m sort of surprised–but not really– that the guy wasn’t made to marry her as often happens in Christian and Jewish societies that value female virginity. I suppose that the girl was eventually married off as some old man’s fourth life–if she was lucky.

    Ever see this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Story-Behind-Saudi-Arabia/dp/0967673747/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358962268&sr=1-1&keywords=princess

    It’s a memoir of a Saudi princess that gives a horrible view of abuses against women in that nation.

  • Just1Z

    @Susan
    does it seem to be a stretch now?

    I read somewhere that oral absorbtion of the biz works as well. Another moist internal membrane…seems viable. But I’m not off searching for a link, so take it, or leave it as an anecdote, s’all good.

  • Cooper

    @SayWhaat

    Within three months? Isn’t that kinda nuts?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona: “Here are some answers:http://islamqa.info/en/ref/108806
    Also do you have Data of the incidence of female suicide in this societies vs ours?”

    The gist of what I gathered from that page is “don’t even think about leaving yor wife.” That kind of supports the point I was making earlier. Creating a culture where marriage to a virgin is guaranteed comes with some consequences for men. Some guys may think, “making women behave so that I can win, yay!” but along with making women behave, men would be forced to behave in order to support the system. If they happened to pick “the wrong virgin” they’d be stuck. They would screw up the virgin ecosystem, if you will, if they tried to leave their N=1 lady and go add to some other virgin’s number.

    My hypothetical situation had no stats, because it was hypothetical. However, Damien may have more info on this.

  • J

    I will say, as a very extraverted person, that socializing need not be fake or hyper. I love being with people, meeting people, etc. Bringing new people into my life gives me a great deal of pleasure.

    While I believe you, I think part of “the failure to communicate” that people have around this issue is that the introverts here find exactly the opposite to be true. My immediate first reaction to new people is discomfort and suppressed hostilty. New people frighten and confuse me. I’m a good friend once people have won me over, but I’m slow to warm up. I can force myself to be “on,” which people find attractive, but when I’m “off” people tire me out.

  • J

    Royale! Good to see you!

  • Oz

    Eoin, “So the problem is that men 9especially high value men), by our nature, don’t usually like high-N, but high-N women want these men and are competing with low-N women. (Note that, just as hypergamy is simply a fact and neither good nor evil, the same is true of this male preference). So the low-N women suffer when high-N women lie.”

    8s and above don’t need to lie. They can do anything at all and men will stay say stuff like “I want to eat her feces” (not kidding, i’ve read it many times on the internet). And that’s especially true for wealthy 8-10s. If you’re an 8-10, wealthy AND “act feminine” on top of all of it? Sheeeeeet.
    You could be the female Charles Manson and you’ll be officially sainted.

    So ladies, do an honest assessement of your looks. One way men have told us we can know how we score is by the quantity of quality attention you get from quality guys. Do handsome men of means flirt with you constantly, even when you’re in public with another man? If so, you’re an 8-10.

    Its only from the 7 level on down when N and behavior might start to matter. And yeah, that’s most of us.

    Don’t shoot the messenger. (or the gorgeous babes)

  • Mike C

    I concur with the observations of most women here. High N girls have other qualities that make them very attractive to all sorts of men. The contrast between what men say they want (low N) and how they act when it comes to entering LTRs with unrestricted women is far too great for me to pay it too much mind.

    I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating once again. Here’s the reality…many men when entering any type of mating relationship…whether STR, LTR, or even in some cases marriage on some level function on a “beggars can’t be choosers” model. The perceptive will see evidence of this in the comments of the last two threads.

    The overlap of the numerous attraction triggers women filter for, the necessity for “attraction to grow” in many cases along with the fact that many men don’t exactly possess an excess of attraction triggers is pretty small. There is a reason that the expression “I got lucky” exists amongst men but no such expression exists among women. It is an acknowledgement that many men simply can’t go out and get the woman of their choosing. On some level, they have to “take what they can get” and that might be whatever woman he happened to trigger enough of the cocktail of attraction triggers to actually get her interested.

    So for many guys if faced with an unrestricted woman with a high N who is DISPLAYING INTEREST AND ATTRACTION TO HIM (unlike the restricted low N women who might as well be nonexistant) what is he going to do? Sure, if it was as easy as just going to the girlfriend aisle of the grocery store and picking either unrestricted high N or restricted low N off the shelf, then guys would probably be more inclined to choose low N for LTRs. But that isn’t the choice….because it is the guy who has to do the grunt work of approaching and trying to flip all those attraction triggers in the right mix to get attraction turned on. So once he knows he has a high N girl interested and attracted, he is going to have a tough time casting her aside for some hypothetical low N girl. A bird in hand beats two in the bush. Men have a rationalization hamster too, so in many cases, they’ll find a way to get past or least bury the angst. But that doesn’t mean it is blind acceptance or a non-issue. It is probably like a rock in your shoe, but that is better then going shoeless.

  • Oz

    Re: Islam. Only PC left leaning naive Westerners and some Manosphere nuts have gooey ice cream and cake visions of it.

    I grew up surrounded by Muslims, have more than a few in my extended by close family, and have dated several. Islam is very much intertwined in my culture and daily life even when I’m in the States.

    There’s nothing to be impressed by.

  • Ian

    @Anne

    If her “belonging” to someone else is the difficult part, then a woman who’s been deeply in love with and have had sex with 3 men would be far more threatening than a woman who’s had meaningless sex with 10 men. But most men consider a higher N worse. They don’t care about “belonging” or emotions, they’re just afraid of being compared to other men in bed. That’s completely understandable to me, just be honest about it.

    They’re two separate issues, but both intertwined wine a high N.

    Thought-game: if a woman slept with 10 men, each man guaranteed to have worse bodies and sexual performance than their partner, would he have a negative feeling? If a woman slept with two men only, each guaranteed to have better sexual performance and bodies than her current lover, would he have a negative feeling?

    The first related to a man’s judgment in evaluation of the woman, the second to judgment in evaluation of himself. Revulsion vs. shyness. Neither are particularly the building blocks of a good relationship, men will have varying levels of each. That said, it’s hard to feel what other bodies feel, women tend not to grok the first reaction.

    Scout’s honor: if Snow White slept with only her seven Dwarfs, she’s still be unattractive to Prince Charming.

  • Oz

    Islam is nothing more than Arab cultural imperialism that seeks to take over the world (one world government and one world religion). We South Asians have known this for over a thousand years now. The rest of you are slow on the uptake if you think its “just a religion”.

  • J

    Creating a culture where marriage to a virgin is guaranteed comes with some consequences for men. Some guys may think, “making women behave so that I can win, yay!” but along with making women behave, men would be forced to behave in order to support the system. If they happened to pick “the wrong virgin” they’d be stuck. They would screw up the virgin ecosystem, if you will, if they tried to leave their N=1 lady and go add to some other virgin’s number.

    And this is the problem with the ‘sphere’s conflicting advice to men and women. The numers don’t add up.

  • Passer_By

    @magdelena

    ” but I WISH men would actually choose to partner or enter long term relationships with restricted low N women. However, that is NOT what we’re seeing. You’re asking us to believe you or our lying eyes. I choose to believe my lying eyes. ”

    All else being equal, or even relatively close, they would choose the low N. However, high N women are probably much more comfortable making their attraction clear. They probably also make the guy feel more desirable in a relationship (notwithstanding the manosophere cliche of the high N woman who settles for a guy she’s not attracted to). So, his choice often is not between a high N woman and a low N woman. It’s often between (i) a high N woman who finds him interesting, gives him very clear approach signals and makes him feel comfortable with the interaction and who, as things progress, is sexually responsive and even initiates sex frequently and (ii) a low N woman who appears disinterested when they meet, makes the approach and conversation difficult, and, even if it does progress, makes him feel like sex is an imposition or favor. And, of course, he often doesn’t even know their numbers or history before hand.

    In effect, unless he is incredibly confident and and experienced approacher/seducer, the choice is often being made for him, and it has nothing to do with their numbers.

  • Oz

    Someone: “I concur with the observations of most women here. High N girls have other qualities that make them very attractive to all sorts of men. The contrast between what men say they want (low N) and how they act when it comes to entering LTRs with unrestricted women is far too great for me to pay it too much mind.”

    Mike C: “I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating once again. Here’s the reality…many men when entering any type of mating relationship…whether STR, LTR, or even in some cases marriage on some level function on a “beggars can’t be choosers” model. The perceptive will see evidence of this in the comments of the last two threads.”

    The hamster is strong in this one.

  • Cooper
  • Mike C

    Those two concepts need to be absorbed. Acceptance does not mean something doesn’t matter.

    Yes.

    There are a lot – a lot of men like George who are having a difficult time reconciling what they see on the street, in social circles, in college, in media, with some CDC data or other smoothing sources regarding sexual partners.

    Ha. I’ve been banging that drum for a long time.

    Throw in a bit of lucky experience that includes immediate sex and those guys who don’t have a clear and confident view of their options (call it SMV or confidence/dominance, it doesn’t matter) are going to believe that low N women who would also be interested in them are approaching unicorn status. These guys will prioritize the bird in hand over their own feelings regarding her N.

    Looks like we are on the exact same page here (the comment I just posted).

  • Passer_By

    In fairness to PJ, it’s not as if “Oz” was some sort of incognito name. Wasn’t her old name “Ozymandis” or something like that? Or am I thinking of someone else? If so, calling herself “Oz” is hardly wearing fake glasses with a big nose and mustache. I assumed it was her as soon as I saw the name and one comment.

  • Oz

    Creating a culture where marriage to a virgin is guaranteed comes with some consequences for men. Some guys may think, “making women behave so that I can win, yay!” but along with making women behave, men would be forced to behave in order to support the system. If they happened to pick “the wrong virgin” they’d be stuck. They would screw up the virgin ecosystem, if you will, if they tried to leave their N=1 lady and go add to some other virgin’s number.”

    I come from such a culture (thought Susan has practically forbidden me to talk about it). But oh boy, the miserable (arranged) marriages are not just a small percentage. The stories I could tell!

    “And this is the problem with the ‘sphere’s conflicting advice to men and women. The numers don’t add up.”

    The Sphere is what I would call a “first world problem”. They could never make it in an actual sexually and socially conservative culture like the one I grew up in.

    There’s fascination for the “other” (see Ana’s comments about Islam), but they could never for even one 24 hour cycle live it.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    “Humanity is coming full circle. More and more people are identifying as “pagan” and other pre-Abrahamic traditions. People want to get back to their roots.”

    Because that’s where rationalism leads.

    I told you Modernity was over.

  • Madelena

    @Anacoana

    I enjoy your posts and your sense of humour so I’m a little taken aback by your response.

    I usually copy and paste the paragraphs I want to respond to and that is what I did with yours. For some reason, I thought I indicated at the top of my paragraph that this post was addressed to you. If I forgot to do it, my apologies. There was no intention on my part to mislead anybody.

    In any case, I though you had brought up an interesting point in your original post and I wanted to add some thought to it since I am very familiar with the religion and region in question. I don’t have any other agenda, despite what you might think.

    The marriage contracts that I described are not out of place in countries with islamic based laws, specifically in the Gulf region. If I’m correct, you are from the Dominican Republic, yes? I assume laws are secular in the DR nature hence the difference you noted.

    I probably didn’t make my point clear but the women you know have men or families that love them, will fight for them, care for them, or honour their wishes. That is very common and recognizably part of human nature and is great for the women, on an individual level.
    However, generally speaking, societies in the region where I lived, the Gulf, with its legal and religious institutions, should the husband wish to divorce his wife because she can’t bear children, or should he wish that she no longer study to be a doctor, or should he wish to violate any clause in the marriage contract, she is, generally speaking, SOL unless her family has enough money to fight it in the courts, where the laws are not codified and are up to the interpretation of the sheiks, or via wasta (influence, aka paying off the sheik). For the most part, the courts don’t tend to take the side of the women because the laws are religiously based especially when family/marriage is concerned.

    Furthermore, the story I shared related more to the concept of slut shaming and the consequences faced by women in socitiees with a strong slut shaming culture. It was a story told to me and that did make an impact on me.

    I truly have no idea what you mean by women in other cultures have orgasms but I believe you :-)

  • VD

    I just realised something. The reason so many women assume that the reason men don’t want high N women is because they fear being compared to other men in bed, is because that is what women would fear when being with a high N man.

    Bingo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      that is what women would fear when being with a high N man.

      Bingo.

      One of many reasons for women to find high N in men unattractive. Why is that hard to understand?

      I will readily admit that high N women find high N men sexually attractive. Restricted women, not so much.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    “Islam is nothing more than Arab cultural imperialism that seeks to take over the world (one world government and one world religion). We South Asians have known this for over a thousand years now. The rest of you are slow on the uptake if you think its “just a religion”.”

    I don’t think that having Baghdad torn to shreds helped them.

    In any event, they are dying.

  • Oz

    Royale W. Cheese, divorce rates are sky high in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

    Islam is quite liberal on divorce, when its initiated from the man’s side, and the Arab countries reflect that.

    The Muslims with lower divorce rates come from countries where the pre-Islamic culture either did not have divorce in its past or stigmatizes it heavily now, such as the region of the world I’m from. And even there, Muslims have the highest divorce rates!

  • JP

    “I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating once again. Here’s the reality…many men when entering any type of mating relationship…whether STR, LTR, or even in some cases marriage on some level function on a “beggars can’t be choosers” model. The perceptive will see evidence of this in the comments of the last two threads.”

    I thought this was obvious to most people.

  • Mike C

    Mike C: “I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating once again. Here’s the reality…many men when entering any type of mating relationship…whether STR, LTR, or even in some cases marriage on some level function on a “beggars can’t be choosers” model. The perceptive will see evidence of this in the comments of the last two threads.”

    The hamster is strong in this one.

    PJ,

    I generally avoid responding to you, but I have to say you really are a moron. “Hamster” implies some sort of rationalization process taking place. I’m telling you the cold, hard truth. The simple fact of the matter is most men operate from a “scarcity” mentality when it comes to women. Only a minority of men truly attain an “abundance” “take it or leave it” mentality with outcome indifference. I don’t mean to pick on Cooper…I like Cooper but look at the hoops and mental energy he is investing in trying to figure out how to still pull “Flaky Girl”. If he had an abundance mentality he would NEXT her, and look for someone new to pursue. If they somehow ended up as BF-GF, it would be because she was kind of the default choice who finally showed enough interest. The majority of men work off that script.

  • JP

    “Islam is quite liberal on divorce, when its initiated from the man’s side, and the Arab countries reflect that.”

    It takes, what?

    Nine words?

  • taterearl

    I’ll put this in terms of my blue pill experience when it comes to men accepting whatever a woman brings.

    Back in the day…if a woman showed interest in me, that made me happy. It didn’t really matter what her personality was like…just that she was pretty and liked me. The problem with that is the crushing disappointment when she left or I found her to not be ideal yet still stuck around because I had barely any clue how I got her in the first place.

    Now that roller coaster of emotions was not fun for me at all. Dizzying highs and even longer depressing lows. Women was the only avenue in my life like this…why because media and other various forms of brainwashing told me that my validation of a man was through what women thought of me. Understand why many guys will accept a high N but not like it.

    The red pill me makes my own happiness regardless of what her mood is. A few weekends ago was one of the most fun weekends I ever had yet the lady I was with had a terrible attitude. She didn’t bring me down because my mood was independent of hers. This is the man most women in their hearts wants. A guy who is level headed during her swings instead of being the same roller coaster.

  • JP

    “I don’t mean to pick on Cooper…I like Cooper but look at the hoops and mental energy he is investing in trying to figure out how to still pull “Flaky Girl”. If he had an abundance mentality he would NEXT her, and look for someone new to pursue. If they somehow ended up as BF-GF, it would be because she was kind of the default choice who finally showed enough interest. The majority of men work off that script.”

    This is why I say, you go into marriage with the woman you have, not the woman you wish you had.

  • JP

    ” She didn’t bring me down because my mood was independent of hers. This is the man most women in their hearts wants. A guy who is level headed during her swings instead of being the same roller coaster.”

    This is a downside of being in love with somebody. Your emotions are connected.

  • Mike C

    I thought this was obvious to most people.

    A number of comments clearly demonstrate that to be false.

  • Passer_By

    @JP

    LOL. JP is the Don Rumsfeld of relationship gurus.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    “The Muslims with lower divorce rates come from countries where the pre-Islamic culture either did not have divorce in its past or stigmatizes it heavily now, such as the region of the world I’m from.”

    Where exactly ARE you from? It makes it much easier to talk to somebody when you have some idea.

    (I don’t even know what “South Asia” means in JP-speak)

  • Oz

    Ian, “For each category below, add one for a positive answer, subtract one for negative. If homeschooled and under the age of 22, subtract two.”

    Ha. You missed my comments about my neighbor’s “homeschooled” daughter. She’s being homeschooled, alright ;)

  • Tasmin

    @Escoffier 505
    Great comment
    “Even if she is never troubled by the immorality of the lie, the knowledge that her husband/BF has a low opinion of what she really is will erode her own self-confidence and sense of self worth. Basically, she knows that she is X and he despises X, hence, if he knew the truth, he would despise her.”

    This is the female chink in the heart. The paradox of that kind of lie.

    And I agree with someone else who said that female confidence should be the ability to stand behind their past if asked and be willing to be “judged” and DQ’d based on that. Same goes for men.

    Looking at those high N women who seem to be getting all married up and thus proving that N doesn’t matter to me sounds a lot like the male version of “assholes are getting all of the girls.” Well, assholes can get a lot of sex, hence the fake asshole brigade, and some assholes are tall and successful and can get women of all sorts, but then a lot of assholes are just “getting” women who like assholes. Is that the “success” you are competing for? And there is a whole lot in between. Enough for me to realize that I value not being an asshole, being true to my own values more than trying to win with every possible woman or win at a game that I don’t want to win (e.g. getting a woman who is into assholes).

    This N issue isn’t just about what men think. It has to be about what we each think, value, relative to our physical intimacy. It starts with us. I value it in certain ways for my own reasons. I want to find a woman who holds hers in similar ways. I can adopt asshole game to try and find an edge or to equalize how I perceive the SMP is wronging me because of who/how I am, but I run the risk of attracting women who value the image over the reality. Either I value something myself and want my woman to place similar value on it or I don’t, in which case N is somewhat irrelevant. I think it is a mistake to assume that “success” in the SMP for high N women means N does not matter to men and it is a mistake to alter behavior in ways that runs counter to the values we hold ourselves. FWIW.

    Restricted women who use sex to compete are doing just that. Sure, there is a chance to “succeed”, a chance to beat the unrestricted women to the punch, but then what happens when you “win” and the man is either unrestricted and very high N himself or has been holding to his own values and now shows concern for the fact that you have established that early sex is the norm and will eventually have to stand behind a history in which your values and behaviors deviate constantly, perhaps resulting in a “high” N.

    Some of this goes to the context part of the N, some of it is about honesty, authenticity, consistency, and reliability that us men like to think about when we contemplate a future with you. Think about the other end of all those high N women’s success. There is a lot of assuming going on relative to the qualities of that man and the relationship itself touted as “success”. If you value your N, how comfortable would you be with that “catch” of a man who has torn through 50-100 women, alternating between having fun and looking for “you”? And if you think those high value men may not have a high N, sure they are out there, but do you think a restricted, high value, low N man is going to prefer a high N woman? sounds risky.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      This N issue isn’t just about what men think. It has to be about what we each think, value, relative to our physical intimacy. It starts with us. I value it in certain ways for my own reasons. I want to find a woman who holds hers in similar ways. I can adopt asshole game to try and find an edge or to equalize how I perceive the SMP is wronging me because of who/how I am, but I run the risk of attracting women who value the image over the reality.

      Thank you Tasmin, you hit all the important points.

      Even if it were true that high N women got relationships with high value guys, you need to ask yourself what effect that woman’s experience has had on her. How will that affect her relationship? Is the goal to say, “I banged 100 guys and I still got an alpha!” Why would that be a good thing to shoot for?

      As I stated earlier, it’s quite clear that assortative mating extends to sociosexuality. Unrestricted guys tend to have sex with unrestricted girls. They don’t want to bother with virgins, e.g. “Ugh, they’re clingy and needy, and they bleed.” Restricted women don’t want men with funky dicks.

      So if you’re unrestricted, take heart – you will probably wind up with some sort of player if that’s what you want. If you’re restricted, that’s a good thing, because men who care the most about N are the ones you should be going after anyway.

  • JP

    “@JP

    LOL. JP is the Don Rumsfeld of relationship gurus.”

    I like Rummy’s way of putting things.

    I thought he was delusional, but he had a wonderful way with words.

    It’s also true.

    Most men don’t get to the point where they get to screen for “compatibility”.

  • Oz

    JP, South Asia is India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. My very large extended family hails from 4 f the above countries and I’ve lived in 5 of them. In ancient times the entire area was Hindu (as was much of Southeast Asia as well). In traditional Hindu culture there was/is no divorce. Though now of course there is legal divorce it is highly stigmatized amongst Hindus and those who while not being Hindu, are ancestral descendents of Hindus.

    South Asian Muslims have the highest divorce rates of all South Asians. Islam is very liberal about divorce, when its initiated from the man’s side.
    Saudi Arabian divorce rates are higher than North America’s.

  • JP

    “If they happened to pick “the wrong virgin” they’d be stuck. They would screw up the virgin ecosystem, if you will, if they tried to leave their N=1 lady and go add to some other virgin’s number.””

    Your are supposed to be “stuck” in marriage.

  • Oz

    JP January 23, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    “Islam is quite liberal on divorce, when its initiated from the man’s side, and the Arab countries reflect that.”

    It takes, what?

    Nine words?

    Talak. Talak. Talak.

  • JP

    “JP, South Asia is India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. My very large extended family hails from 4 f the above countries and I’ve lived in 5 of them.”

    And they are all completely different places with different cultures, which doesn’t answer my question in the slightest.

  • taterearl

    “This is a downside of being in love with somebody. Your emotions are connected.”

    Sure they are connected but that doesn’t mean you need to reflect them or correct them…unless they are good emotions.

    If she is angry, that doesn’t mean you have to be.
    If she is sad, you don’t have to be.
    If she is fearful, you don’t have to be.

    And by far just because she’s in a bad mood doesn’t mean you have to try and correct that mood. Sometimes just letting the mood pass it’s course is the best action.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The marriage contracts that I described are not out of place in countries with islamic based laws, specifically in the Gulf region. If I’m correct, you are from the Dominican Republic, yes? I assume laws are secular in the DR nature hence the difference you noted.

    They were studying on DR, they got married in their original countries,and went back to them after graduation, so your point is moot.

  • JP

    “If she is angry, that doesn’t mean you have to be.
    If she is sad, you don’t have to be.
    If she is fearful, you don’t have to be.”

    Reflecting emotions is pretty automatic and reflexive.

    Which is why I don’t like being around angry people. It makes me angry. Usually at them.

  • INTJ

    @ Renee

    That’s just….crazy. Whatever happened to being honest and upfront about your values and deal breakers?

    I agree.

    Only problem for me is that as the male it’s my job to sexually escalate early – otherwise she’ll think I’m not interested. Since I’m not a manwhore and am not interested in having sex early, this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Only problem for me is that as the male it’s my job to sexually escalate early – otherwise she’ll think I’m not interested. Since I’m not a manwhore and am not interested in having sex early, this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…

      Whoa, INTJ, you just blew my mind. I have never thought of this before. That is quite a conundrum.

      I think that since you have zero interest in promiscuous women, you will obviously calibrate to the girl you’re interested in. For her, sexual escalation might comprise a first date kiss, second date makeout, third date dry humping, etc. You don’t need to get anywhere close to P in V before you’ve decided to be exclusive. Obviously, Susie Sorority Slut is going to expect you to whip it out the same night you meet. So it’s important to fish in the right pond.

  • Oz

    Susan, I just read your comment about reverting to PJ. If you don’t mind ma’am, I’ll stay Oz going forward. There’s already a JP here and he doesn’t want to be confused with me ;)

    Just1z – female juices also contain “feel good chemicals” in them so drink deep at the Glastonbury Tor, my good bloke, drink deep of the Chalice. ;)

    Fellatio might relieve depression in men ;) but the only way its not going to ADD to the depression in women is if we perform it on men we love and who love us. Otherwise, going out looking for d*ck to slurp every time we’re feeling down is going to put us on the shrink’s couch faster than a Muslim call center worker in Mumbai can text talak his wife!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Oz

      Fellatio might relieve depression in men but the only way its not going to ADD to the depression in women is if we perform it on men we love and who love us.

      Good point. Even if there is a slight benefit, it must be weighed against the risk. In a similar vein, don’t skip condoms in order to get the endorphins from splooge. You’re better off going to the gym.

  • Oz

    Oz – “Its not a matter of treating him worse or better. Its giving him what he wants.”

    Teddy Bear, “Bullshit. If that’s the case, NK should keep her pants on since clearly most guys “want” a low N woman. She IS treating him worse, because she is making him jump through hoops when she let other guys go for the gold right away. The guy looking for an LTR won’t mind waiting, IF she made every other guy wait as well. If not? Then my suggestion is for NK to move on and leave that poor guy alone to find a woman with more moral fiber than she has.”

    Teddy D, my ol’ pal from Yonkers, Nk and I were both responding to the comments from (some) men here saying that a woman who sexually escalates early or responds positively to early sexual escalation from the male should get “pump-n-dumped” because she’s not “LTR material”.

    Although most or maybe not even very many men feel this way, what if NK happens to date and really like one that does? What if she wants a LTR with him? Obviously its in her best interest to hold back in order to keep him.

    Teddy Bear, “In truth, my current wife is the first woman I’ve experienced this with. Don’t get me wrong, my other LTR mates were attracted to me, and I to them. But none of them had that “instant” attraction for me, and I didn’t notice them immediately. Basically we grew on each other.

    I’ve said elsewhere here at HUS (I think LOL) that having experienced this level of attraction from a woman, I would NEVER again bother with a woman I had to “build” attraction with. Sure, it can work, and I’ve lived it so I know it can. IMO a relationship with a woman that is VERY physically attracted from the start is WAY different than with a woman that “grows” to be attracted to you. ”

    I’ve had the opposite experience with men, they were all eager and the first to say “I love you” early in the relationship, and then they petered out.

    I prefer attraction and love to grow over time and stick.

  • INTJ

    @ DV

    the more than obvious, pseudo pretty (the panda looking type as Bastiat put it) girls with an even more obvious bitchy look in their eyes.

    You mean the girls (often slightly overweight) who wear lots of makeup and revealing clothes?

  • Oz

    “Only problem for me is that as the male it’s my job to sexually escalate early – otherwise she’ll think I’m not interested. Since I’m not a manwhore and am not interested in having sex early, this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…”

    You can do both – escalate and hold off on the actual sexual intercourse.

    Let’s say you go on 6 dates with a woman over 6 weeks. First day, no touching. 2nd date, light touching like pushing the hair out of her eyes, 3rd date, hold her hand. 4th date, kiss her. 5 the date – kiss more passionately and make out. We’re already 6 weeks now and you can add to the previous one.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Thats not true however, an N=10 is not twice as bad as N=5. The drop in quality is significantly more than double.

    Why is it not linear?

    It should be obvious it’s not linear. After all, the difference between N=200 and N=100 is much less than the difference between N=10 and N=5.

    However, as pointed out by him, it isn’t even an inverse relationship between quality and N. Doubling N does more than just halving value.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      After all, the difference between N=200 and N=100 is much less than the difference between N=10 and N=5.

      Ah, I can’t recall if we were talking about the guy’s opinion of the woman or the real effect on her as a result of her experiences. If it’s the latter, then there is probably a baseline for each woman where her psychology is adversely affected. Bastiat Blogger referred to this. For some women, that may be 5, for another it may be 25. It depends a lot on how she’s wired.

      Of course, that has nothing to do with what you think of her, and whether she meets your standards, which you are entitled to exercise.

  • Iggles

    @ Madelena:

    You youself stated that your gf was promiscious (as per your standards) but you chose to be her because she fulfilled your OTHER high standards (if you’re not the guy I’m thinking of then apologies). Same with Ted. Nancy landed a high qaulity guy even though he went into the marriage with his eyes wide open.

    + 1000!

    There are men here on HUS who have High N gfs & wives. Leads me to agree at the end of the day, a woman having Low N isn’t as valuable to guys as they say it is (especially if they’re getting their needs met with regular sex!)

    The risk for the restricted girl is that she is left on the shelf longer than her more promiscious sisters, a lot who do VERY WELL for themselves in this SMP. I wish that weren’t the case but it is.

    Preach on!

    This is a painful reality for women who love shy, restrict, or reserved. The women who dive into sex & relationships with reckless abandon are landing high quality mates and getting married. This SMP rewards proactiveness and extroversion, just as confidence and a solid frame gives men a leg up regardless if the man is a “good guy” or a jerk.

    Again, should I believe what you say or what you (and so many other men) do?

    I’m interested to see if any of the guys can get a solid answer that holds water…

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    OTC nailed it.

    Shaming cads is fine, though pointless.

    Shaming all men, whether they are a cad or not – while at the same time *not* shaming women is the problem. Result: ghe cads don’t give a shit, the good men sabotage themselves trying to be nice, and the women prefer the cads.

    The end.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Shaming cads is fine, though pointless.

      Women certainly can’t do it, but if I were a guy I might try. In fact, I think guys do this. Zach has said that he and his friends show zero respect for a guy in their crew who is a loser who manages to get laid. I’ve also heard guys say to each other, “Not cool” and “Dude, I sure wouldn’t want you anywhere near my sister.”

      There are good reasons for men to rise up against the men who are hogging all the sex. It’s been done repeatedly throughout history, which is why monogamy always prevails in the end.

  • JP

    “You can do both – escalate and hold off on the actual sexual intercourse.”

    I thought this was obvious, too.

  • Just1Z

    @Passerby
    “Wasn’t her old name “Ozymandis”

    No, don’t think so. That one posted a picture of her kebab on the web to show how sophisticated she was (or something). Yuck.

  • taterearl

    “I’m interested to see if any of the guys can get a solid answer that holds water…”

    I did way back up the comment section.

  • INTJ

    @ Iggles

    I suspect American men would not happy with this if the SMP changed to this overnight. The same men who claim they want virgins also expect to sleep with women they’re dating right away – even when they have no intention of ever marrying her!

    I suppose I’m not an “American” man, so you might be correct.

  • INTJ

    @ JP

    Just add a financial incentive.

    A Cad tax should work wonders.

    ROFL I’d vote for this. This might actually work. I mean, tell the liberals we’re raising taxes to pay for environmental causes or something, and tell the conservatives we’re trying to encourage family values!

  • LJ

    “I just realised something. The reason so many women assume that the reason men don’t want high N women is because they fear being compared to other men in bed, is because that is what women would fear when being with a high N man.”

    Really? Maybe I’m just confident, but I’ve never once worried about how I compared with a guy’s past lovers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Really? Maybe I’m just confident, but I’ve never once worried about how I compared with a guy’s past lovers.

      Me either, I always assumed (and received confirmation) that I was tops. :)

      All it takes is enthusiasm, imagination and a sense of abandon.

  • Ted D

    Madelena – With all due respect, you have NO idea exactly how much of an issue my wife’s past was, and you have NO idea exactly what her past is. I can tell you, it is in NO WAY similar to Nancy’s story. Her number is higher than mine, but with an N of 4 she didn’t have to rack up much to have more “experience” than me. My wife’s past is pretty typical from what I gather reading online and listening to other women talk, and yet I still had serious issues with it. Sure, in the end we are married, but it caused my wife and I a lot of hurt and guilt to go through what we did to get past it, and she and I both know I will never just “get over” it.

    “Nancy landed a high qaulity guy even though he went into the marriage with his eyes wide open.”

    Sure, a high quality guy that DOES NOT respect her, and probably resents her to some extent as well. If that is what you want from a husband, more power to you!

    “So even for men who require very low N women, they still opted for high N women to partner with and wife up which tells us that you overlooked the high N because she brought other things to the table”

    Wrong. I “opted” for a higher than myself N woman because at 42 years old my chances of finding a woman with an N of 4 or less is nil. I was forced to choose between wanting to be with someone, or sticking to my moral guns. Guys aren’t “overlooking” high N, most of them feel like they don’t have a choice.

    Anne – “I don’t think this is the actual reasons why you want a low N woman though. If her “belonging” to someone else is the difficult part, then a woman who’s been deeply in love with and have had sex with 3 men would be far more threatening than a woman who’s had meaningless sex with 10 men.”

    Not exactly. Here is the thing: if a woman is in a relationship with a man, it is expected that she ‘belongs’ to him, at least while they are together. But, a woman that has casual sex is IMO “giving” herself to a man that has done nothing to deserve it. I am not in the least bit concerned about my wife’s ex-husband, or her previous LTR mates. Sure, I looked at how many there were and how long those relationships lasted, but because she was actually “with” those men, I don’t see it as a red flag that she had sex with them.

    However, having sex with men that have not demonstrated ANY kind of commitment to her IS a red flag to me, because it means she either does not value her sexuality very much, she is very foolish at making good decisions, or she is far too focused on short term pleasure over long term happiness. The decision to “overlook” her past rested largely on which of those her N could be attributed to.

    Chris – “Your viewing ‘belonging’ through the female lens of emotions, he is talking about ‘belonging’ through the male lens of sexuality.”

    Yes this. See, the emotional part just doesn’t mean that much to me. Don’t get me wrong, it is absolutely important for a LTR/Marriage to have that emotional “belonging”, but the honest truth is I don’t value that much, because I’ve never had an issue getting it if/when I wanted. I can get most of those emotional needs met by friends and family if/when necessary. I fully expect my wife to “give me her heart”, but that isn’t really what I’m looking at when it comes to the “value” of the relationship. IMO love is easy, fidelity and long term faithfulness is the hard part.

    I know it isn’t very romantic to hear, but it is what it is. I value my wife’s emotional connection to me the same way I would a close friends. But the difference between my wife and my friends is: sex. That’s it. It is the intimate sexual relationship we share that TO ME makes what we have a marriage. The legal qualifications are easily dismissed in divorce court, so they don’t count at all. I’m no longer a religious person (as in practicing) and we didn’t marry in a church, so the faith aspect of it is irrelevant. Sex is what’s left. So, to me, sexual intimacy is a HUGE part of what constitutes a relationship. The more a woman has ‘shared’ it with others for little or no return investment the less I tend to see it as worthy to me. At some point a woman’s N is larger than the return on my investment.

    J – “I can force myself to be “on,” which people find attractive, but when I’m “off” people tire me out.”

    Exactly! I’m naturally suspicious of anyone new from the start, and it takes time for them to “win me over” before I’ll let my guard down. I tend to walk around the world with my shields fully up anytime I’m outside of my comfort zones. (basically home, work, friends/parents house). It is exhausting always being just on the edge of that “fight or flight” reflex. It also has an odd side effect that I simply can’t STAND to be startled. I’ve punched people square in the face/chest simply because they jumped out at me, and I once knocked the wind out of a friend because he thought it would be funny to jump out of a tree at me. Before I even had a moment to think I’d already laid him out on the ground. I can pretend and appear for all the world to be completely relaxed and calm, but I assure you that inside I’m a tightly wound knot if there are people I don’t know around.

  • Mike C

    I’m interested to see if any of the guys can get a solid answer that holds water…

    Both Tasmin and myself have explained the dynamics of why men with a stated preference for low N women may end up with higher N women. But yes, to summarize, it isn’t the dealbreaker maybe it seems like. Take the following 3 items

    1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be feminine, nurturing, sweet, flirtatious and responsive 3. Maintain a low N

    1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of men, and if a woman is high enough on 1 and 2, the man will rationalize however he needs to to move past 3.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be feminine, nurturing, sweet, flirtatious and responsive 3. Maintain a low N

      1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of men, and if a woman is high enough on 1 and 2, the man will rationalize however he needs to to move past 3.

      I think it’s only about 1. The psycho bitches that do so well are anything but nurturing or sweet. They’re entitled drama queens with daddy issues.

      I have known some guys who constantly claim they don’t like drama, and select for it again and again. I think some men are just drawn to “bad girls.”

  • Oz

    INTJ January 23, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    @ JP

    Just add a financial incentive.

    A Cad tax should work wonders.

    ROFL I’d vote for this. This might actually work. I mean, tell the liberals we’re raising taxes to pay for environmental causes or something, and tell the conservatives we’re trying to encourage family values!

    The Japs have beat us to it;

    http://www.japancrush.com/2012/pictures/tax-handsome-men-increase-birthrate-says-economic-analyst.html

  • Escoffier

    Well, I would not draw many conclusions from the fact, if it is a fact, that lots of high-N women get boyfriends.

    First of all, they are probably outliers, or, if not, they have other things going for them that men want. In other words, it is IN SPITE OF, not BECAUSE OF the high N that they land a man.

    Second, to address the argument that women have to give in early or else be passed by: no doubt this is true for lots of men. But it also true in the context of this SMP. There is a serious chance that this SMP is an aberation that won’t last. More and more men seem to be “standing up for themselves” and are willing to say alound that they don’t want high N. This was simply not an acceptable thing to say in polite society in my youth. But feminist orthodoxy is cracking there.

    I would not be surprised if 5-1o years from now, the % of high-N women who land BFs declines considerably, as more and more men say “No thanks, I’d rather be a player or be alone.”

    I know that, personally, I would rather be alone.

  • JP

    “I suppose I’m not an “American” man, so you might be correct.”

    I thought you were in America.

    Also, you’re participating in an Americanization Internet forum, HUS.

    (This is how America Americifies the world. Also, if you are within a few miles of a McDonalds, it generally increased the speed of your Americanization)

  • JP

    “@ JP

    Just add a financial incentive.

    A Cad tax should work wonders.

    ROFL I’d vote for this. This might actually work. I mean, tell the liberals we’re raising taxes to pay for environmental causes or something, and tell the conservatives we’re trying to encourage family values!

    The Japs have beat us to it;

    http://www.japancrush.com/2012/pictures/tax-handsome-men-increase-birthrate-says-economic-analyst.html

    That’s not a cad tax.

  • Just1Z

    @Oz

    Just1z – female juices also contain “feel good chemicals” in them so drink deep at the Glastonbury Tor, my good bloke, drink deep of the Chalice.

    Fellatio might relieve depression in men but the only way its not going to ADD to the depression in women is if we perform it on men we love and who love us. Otherwise, going out looking for d*ck to slurp every time we’re feeling down is going to put us on the shrink’s couch faster than a Muslim call center worker in Mumbai can text talak his wife!

    “drink deep of the Chalice” – not my bag thanks. no offence intended.

    Getting a BJ is very errrm relaxing for a guy any time, but I admit that an enthusiastic partner makes it double plus good. We men can only offer our services in order to help our ladies (wholly for their benefit ;) naturally), if they don;t wish to be helped in depression, couldn’t they just go away and do their moaning elsewhere?

    Kind of, “if you don’t want my medecine, then here’s 10p – go phone somebody that cares about your issues” :0

    (tongue in cheek in this comment, not feeling very serious. haven’t even opened the wine yet!)

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Did any of you here play football or baseball amongst a huge group of friends?

    Where 2 were chosen as captain and they started pointing out who they wanted on their respective team?

    Where you stood there patiently waiting for your name to get called?

    Where even the fat tub who couldn’t run without breaking out into heart palpitations and wheezing profusely got chosen ahead of you?

    Did you feel happy when it came down to you and the 2nd last kid and you saw him jump for joy as if i got picked 1st when he was chosen over you?

    Yeah, you end up playing anyways because the alternative is to go home and do nothing.

  • kp

    @ Susan

    “He cannot be counted on. His cheating and divorce rates are high, his degree of sexual satisfaction in marriage is low.

    A friend of my daughter’s found out that her bf (thankfully not married) has a kid. Not only that – he has known it all along. He got a girl pregnant in college, he has no contact with her or the child, and provides no support. The way she found out is that an old frat brother of his began dating the woman, coincidentally, and she named the baby’s father. The guy went public with the information.”

    Thank-you Thank-you Thank-you

    Coincidences officially do not exist in my life anymore. There is definitely a reason I found this blog. This is the exact situation I find myself in today, yep, I discovered through some internet searching that my bf of 10 months has a child (fb pics never never die). Am now being told by bf that the child is not a part of our relationship and that I have to leave it as that (I have no idea what the contact/support status is, although I would be pretty certain that he is financially supporting the child but mother/child live on other side of the country). In process of dumping him, and trying to maintain my self respect and trying to learn what and where I went wrong.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @kp

      I discovered through some internet searching that my bf of 10 months has a child (fb pics never never die). Am now being told by bf that the child is not a part of our relationship and that I have to leave it as that

      OMG, what an ass. His response is worse than the fact that he has a kid – which, after all, could happen to anyone. Dumping him is absolutely the right move, and you have every reason to respect yourself, and none to respect him!

      The young woman I mentioned is trying to rationalize that it is OK that her bf provides nothing for his own son (now 4). But it’s not OK. BTW, in that case the mother is a Hodgkins survivor and was told she was sterile, so she never used birth control. When she got pregnant, she realized it might never happen again. Even though she was just a freshman in college, she remained in school and her family is helping her. (They live nearby.) The bio father pretends it never happened. Shame on him, shame on his parents too (assuming they know).

  • Oz

    Iggles January 23, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    @ Madelena:

    You youself stated that your gf was promiscious (as per your standards) but you chose to be her because she fulfilled your OTHER high standards (if you’re not the guy I’m thinking of then apologies). Same with Ted. Nancy landed a high qaulity guy even though he went into the marriage with his eyes wide open.

    + 1000!

    There are men here on HUS who have High N gfs & wives. Leads me to agree at the end of the day, a woman having Low N isn’t as valuable to guys as they say it is (especially if they’re getting their needs met with regular sex!)

    —–

    Madelena and Iggles, stop being so literal and lineal and start thinking more cyclical and holistically.

    I said 3 pages ago that low or no N in and of itself is NOT a value.

    Looks, personality and how you make a man “feel” (feeeeeeeewings!) are the 3 most important things to a man.

    If in addition to those 3 she is also low N, then great! If not, it simply does no matter.

    Men don’t give a rat’s ass what Jessica Alba’s or Roseanne Barr’s number is.
    Both for very different reasons.

    Get it?

  • SayWhaat

    Only problem for me is that as the male it’s my job to sexually escalate early – otherwise she’ll think I’m not interested. Since I’m not a manwhore and am not interested in having sex early, this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…

    I think you are interpreting “sexual escalation” too literally.

    First you push for a kiss. Then an extended make out. Then heavy petting. And so forth.

    Make sense?

  • Oz

    Forget fellatio, just eat hot chillies for depression.
    Cheaper and a you don’t have a mess afterward.
    Same gag reflex though :(

  • JP

    “I think you are interpreting “sexual escalation” too literally.”

    Well, in his defense, they don’t teach you things like this in Boy Class.

  • SayWhaat

    Re High N vs. Low N Women…

    I dunno, guys. I think I was very clear about my sexual interest with the guys I was dating, and they had no problem going with it until my actual number (0) came to light. Men disappeared so fast I thought I was a magician, lol.

    I do think the majority of the male commentariat is out of touch with mainstream opinion/attitudes on this topic.

  • Oz

    “Really? Maybe I’m just confident, but I’ve never once worried about how I compared with a guy’s past lovers.”

    Same here. Who the hell cares?

    Its a “guy thing” to worry about size and skills.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Since im on sports, might i say that there is a direct correlation between acceptable N and the smv/mmv value of the N holder.

    I would feel very very good about being drafted in the 5th round by a storied franchise like the Toronto Maple Leafs or Boston Bruins.

    I wouldn’t feel to excited about being picked #1 overall by the Washington Capitals. And i’d be just downright insulted if i was Washington’s LAST pick overall.

    A beautiful/feminine woman will get more leeway in N than a bloated manatee but the there is still a maximum threshold that runs on a sliding scale in relation to the mans own N. The higher his N, the more he will tolerate her’s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      there is still a maximum threshold that runs on a sliding scale in relation to the mans own N. The higher his N, the more he will tolerate her’s.

      Yes, this is my belief. Although it sounds like Nancy’s husband has a pretty high number. It’s hard to say how he might have responded if she hadn’t compounded it with lies.

  • JuTR

    INTJ, I have to agree with this statement, and it is one of the reasons I think guys drop out of the game.

    INTJ: “Only problem for me is that as the male it’s my job to sexually escalate early – otherwise she’ll think I’m not interested. Since I’m not a manwhore and am not interested in having sex early, this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…”

    The theory of being able to escalate without actual sex is all well and good until you realize that yes, you can get laid, and no, you don’t really feel this girl is right, yet, and now, well, you’re sorta in a tough position to de-escalate. Good luck with that one.

    PJ, 6 dates over 6 weeks and the guy hasn’t pushed for sex, and yet somehow in your fantasy world, there’s going to be a 7th date?

    I can be attracted to someone without giving in to the desire to sleep with them. In fact, I have no desire to put my penis in anything that hasn’t been properly vetted to ensure I don’t have cut scenes of Admiral Akbar in my head down the road.

    OTC, on shaming cads, you are correct. The cads don’t care. the conscientious men do take the message more to heart, while the grrrls reward the cads. Empathetic guys wouldn’t be comfortable treating women as sex objects and then discarding them, but boy, do we wake up to the reality of what women reward.

    And women thinking that their sluttiness is only an issue to men who would be concerned with their own performance in bed is complete projection. Solipsism at its finest.

  • Ted D

    JP – “This is a downside of being in love with somebody. Your emotions are connected.”

    Amen to that! It is worse when you are not generally an emotional person, because it means someone else is now triggering emotional responses, and at least I am not very good at dealing with them. I can handle my own, because I see them coming and head it off at the pass. But when she gets into a “mood” and it affects me, I’m usually at a loss of exactly what to DO about it.

    Taterearl – “And by far just because she’s in a bad mood doesn’t mean you have to try and correct that mood. Sometimes just letting the mood pass it’s course is the best action.”

    It isn’t any desire on my part to “fix” her bad moods that is the issue. The issue is: I usually don’t allow myself to BE in a “bad mood” by stifling the “feeling” before it takes hold. But, when my wife gets in a “mood” I have a harder time stifling it in myself, because it didn’t originate with me. It sounds crazy, but I’ve spent my entire life controlling my own emotions. That control doesn’t work very well when the source of the emotion is external. I have the same issues watching sad movies, so I avoid them.

    Oz – “I’ve had the opposite experience with men, they were all eager and the first to say “I love you” early in the relationship, and then they petered out.
    I prefer attraction and love to grow over time and stick.”

    Here is the thing. Since I’ve done the “grow over time” attraction thing a few times, I’m pretty confident in saying that the difficult part for men (at least me) was KEEPING that level of grown attraction long term. Now, I fully admit I acted in ways that helped destroy that attraction, but more importantly what I realized is this.

    If a woman is massively attracted to me on a physical level from the start, I have MUCH more room to “screw up” attraction without taking a large hit to her attraction FOR me. Meaning, even if I slip and fall into “supplicating mode” or something, because my wife has a lot of natural physical attraction for me, the loss of attraction doesn’t mean doom and gloom. Also, since she has such a high level of attraction, I can easily get her MORE attracted/excited without having to go to extreme.

    Put another way, having that high level of physical attraction from her means I don’t have to “game” her that much to keep the attraction going. At this point, I can pretty much just “be myself” (LOL couldn’t resist. Keep in mind that “be myself” now is a far different thing than “be myself” in my blue pill days), stay in shape (or in my case continue to get in better shape) and just try to be a bit playful with her on occasion to keep her fully interested in the physical side of our relationship. Of course the emotional side needs attention as well, but I’ve had plenty of practice at that, and more than anything I needed to back off a little bit in that department so that I wasn’t the “emo” one in the relationship.

    So although I understand your perspective on “growing attraction” I think that from the man’s POV more raw, physical attraction from the start is a better bet.

    Iggles – “There are men here on HUS who have High N gfs & wives. Leads me to agree at the end of the day, a woman having Low N isn’t as valuable to guys as they say it is (especially if they’re getting their needs met with regular sex!)”

    And again, I personally gave up on low N because the pool of women I was fishing in was in the 30+ range. What are the chances of finding a 30-something woman with an N of less than 4 outside of very religious circles?

    Honestly compared to some of the stories from others here, I AND my wife are both low N. And keep in mind I’m counting HJ’s, BJ’s, and anything past “making out” as +1 to her N. According to the last Men’s Health survey, my wife is still in the “sweet spot” for acceptable N by the vast majority of men that took it. (and that while including non P in V stuff as noted above)

  • SayWhaat

    Well, in his defense, they don’t teach you things like this in Boy Class.

    Lol. Somehow we all managed to skip “How to Be a Man/Woman 101″.

    And some people took the wrong class entirely. O__O

  • Oz

    Iggles, “This is a painful reality for women who love shy, restrict, or reserved. The women who dive into sex & relationships with reckless abandon are landing high quality mates and getting married. This SMP rewards proactiveness and extroversion, just as confidence and a solid frame gives men a leg up regardless if the man is a “good guy” or a jerk.”

    You are correct about that but forgive me for saying, I sense an air of bitterness or jealousy in your tone here, as well as from some other women. Just like a lot of guys in the Manosphere are bitter that other people are engaged in happy relationships.

    Take the red pill Iggles:

    Low or no N has no value in and of itself. Looks, personality and how you make him feel (he just wants to be haaaaaaaaaapy), is what matters to a man. Your number comes behind all of that.

    Next time you go out do this experience:

    Find an 8. Find a 3.

    Now put your hand on your gut and ask yourself:
    Does the 8′s number matter?
    Does the 3′s number matter?

    Kinetically feeeeeeel the answer.

    Bottomline is that the 8s number doesn’t matter because men want her and the 3′s number doesn’t matter because men don’t.

    The number is useless for either one but for the opposite reason.

    Here’s a glass of water to help that pill go down.

  • Ion

    Madelena

    “Again, should I believe what you say or what you (and so many other men) do?”

    The same thing men do when women claim they want “nice guys” when looking at their long list of contradicting choices and excuses. Believe what they do.

    There’s no cure for shyness, but experience helps, and shy girls should develop enough experience early on with men (casual or otherwise) while she’s young enough to, even if it’s hard to do so initially. She should aim for moderate experience by her early 20s. If she can.

    If male comments are any indication, introverted/restricted girls who “waited” for a decent monogamous guy in their early-mid 20s are STILL held accountable for letting their youth fly by (they should’ve lowered their standards and dated betas 12 yrs older!), while watching promiscuous women marry whoever they wanted. So you’re held equally accountable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If male comments are any indication, introverted/restricted girls who “waited” for a decent monogamous guy in their early-mid 20s are STILL held accountable for letting their youth fly by (they should’ve lowered their standards and dated betas 12 yrs older!), while watching promiscuous women marry whoever they wanted. So you’re held equally accountable.

      And that’s the best case scenario. Those women will have a hell of a time just convincing a guy they weren’t a “carousel watcher” if not actual rider.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Cooper:

    I have my reservations about the sudden-ness of the timing, but I’ll put them aside until I actually meet the guy. My friend is very happy and that is what is important to me.

  • Mike C

    I was dating, and they had no problem going with it until my actual number (0) came to light. Men disappeared so fast I thought I was a magician, lol.

    I do think the majority of the male commentariat is out of touch with mainstream opinion/attitudes on this topic.

    ZERO is very different from low N for a number of reasons, some of which you yourself acknowledged earlier (the bleeding issue to name just one). ZERO kind of belongs in a category by itself. I think it conflates and misleads the discussion to treat zero and low N as the exact same thing.

    FWIW, I actually have been with 1 virgin so I’m speaking from some experience here. I was actually reluctant for quite awhile when she first indicated some sexual interest in me (1 year+) for a number of reasons plus this wasn’t a GF situation. Finally, one night in grad school when she was visiting, she basically just laid it out there. One of the things I was concerned about actually did materialize exactly as I had thought it might. I didn’t feel bad because I knew it wasn’t like I had seduced or pressured her…she made it crystal clear what she wanted but wasn’t emotionally prepared for afterwards. There are logical reasons some guys might avoid virgins that aren’t related to the high N – low N discussion.

  • Iggles

    Mike C,

    Thanks for answering. I was expecting the male hamster, but you kept it real.

    1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be feminine, nurturing, sweet, flirtatious and responsive 3. Maintain a low N

    1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of men, and if a woman is high enough on 1 and 2, the man will rationalize however he needs to to move past 3.

    Understood. This seems in line with what Madelena and I have seen IRL.

  • Oz

    “Again, should I believe what you say or what you do?”

    Believe what they do.

    “There are logical reasons some guys might avoid virgins that aren’t related to the high N – low N discussion.”

    Didn’t I already say the hamster was strong in that ^ one?

  • JP

    “I didn’t feel bad because I knew it wasn’t like I had seduced or pressured her…she made it crystal clear what she wanted but wasn’t emotionally prepared for afterwards. There are logical reasons some guys might avoid virgins that aren’t related to the high N – low N discussion.”

    Did she attach to you like velcro or something?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be masculine, charming, suave, romantic, dominant, sensual, spit mad game, be alpha 3. Sleep with other women in your harem.

    1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of (wo)men, and if a man is high enough on 1 and 2, the (wo)man will rationalize however (s)he needs to to move past 3.

    Is this inverse accurate wrt hamsterbations?

    We are after all talking about marriages here and i think a lot of women seem to be losing sight of the fact that just because a guy can live off the fact that you have 1 and 2 in abundance.. he’s still not going to feel as fondly of you as if you we’re more sexually selective.

    It’s like a lot of women here are saying “Yeah, i don’t mind if he’s disappointed in me just so long as he sticks around.” Wow.. that’s a great metric to run with folks…

    as ADBG said perfectly… you wanna run with that chink in your armour when the shite hits the fan? Go for it.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Sorry, # 3 should have said “DON’T sleep with other women / build harem” or something like that. Meaning that even if he FAILS to not sleep with other women or keep a harem… 1 and 2 will trump his failure. That’s in keeping with the original analogy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Meaning that even if he FAILS to not sleep with other women or keep a harem…

      Women should flee if they ever hear a guy use the word harem. It’s the equivalent of a guy hearing a girl reminisce about double penetration.

  • SayWhaat

    I think it conflates and misleads the discussion to treat zero and low N as the exact same thing.

    Didn’t Susan say that some of her focus group girls lied about their low N to make it higher so that they wouldn’t look weird?

    The point is the same: low-N women face a higher cost in this SMP.

  • SayWhaat

    Also, Mike, that was a casual sex situation. Apples and oranges.

  • Ted D

    M3 – “It’s like a lot of women here are saying “Yeah, i don’t mind if he’s disappointed in me just so long as he sticks around.” Wow.. that’s a great metric to run with folks…”

    This has been what was bothering me, but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Yes, the ladies here seem to be OK with “settling” for a guy that sticks around but doesn’t value her as much as he could. I suppose if all they want is resources and provisioning, it isn’t such a bad deal.

    “as ADBG said perfectly… you wanna run with that chink in your armour when the shite hits the fan? Go for it.”

    and there you have it! If you want to risk it, then by all means do as you will. But don’t come crying when your husband to be doesn’t respect you because of those choices. THAT will be squarely on you.

  • Oz

    EmTrois , “1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be masculine, charming, suave, romantic, dominant, sensual, spit mad game, be alpha 3. Sleep with other women in your harem.”

    I take issue with “spit mad game”. Its ghetto. Look where all the spitting mad game got them. Fatherless children, baby daddy/mama drama, drugs, gangs, incarceration, dead by 27, etc.

    Same with having harems.

    Want to see where such a lifestyle leads a community? Take a trip to Detroit.

  • Ted D

    SayWhaat – “Didn’t Susan say that some of her focus group girls lied about their low N to make it higher so that they wouldn’t look weird?”

    Sure, they wanted to appear “normal” to more unrestricted guys. Sounds to me like a race to the bottom.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sure, they wanted to appear “normal” to more unrestricted guys. Sounds to me like a race to the bottom.

      No, they were not unrestricted guys. As I have reported several times, I know a bunch of guys who would rather have a gf than a string of ONSs, but will take ONSs from unrestricted women at the bar or whatever. They probably have N of around 10-15 by now, at 24-25. Those are the guys who are turned off by N < 3, not just players.

  • JP

    “Didn’t Susan say that some of her focus group girls lied about their low N to make it higher so that they wouldn’t look weird?

    The point is the same: low-N women face a higher cost in this SMP.”

    So, are these guys not looking to get married in the near future or something?

    I’m trying to figure out why low-N is a problem.

  • JP

    “Same with having harems.

    Want to see where such a lifestyle leads a community? Take a trip to Detroit.”

    What about the Fundamentalist Mormons?

  • Oz

    “This has been what was bothering me, but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Yes, the ladies here seem to be OK with “settling” for a guy that sticks around but doesn’t value her as much as he could.”

    Ted, do you value your wife as much as you can? Yes or no.

  • Oz

    “What about the Fundamentalist Mormons?”

    What about them?

    They’re running welfare scams across state lines.

  • JP

    “What about the Fundamentalist Mormons?”

    What about them?

    They’re running welfare scams across state lines.”

    And getting reality shows.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/sister-wives-trailer-tlc-reality-show-profiles-kody-brown-wives-thirteen-kids-utah-article-1.442330

  • Just1Z

    “I’m trying to figure out why low-N is a problem”

    if you ever figure it out, please let me know, because I can’t see the problem.

    Having said that, I’d be fine with a virgin, as long as I believed that there was a good chance of her handling where the relationship went afterwards. I would not P&D one or ONS one. I would try and value her virginity as she does – it’s the decent thing to do IMHO. Things might not work out longer term, but she would know that I wasn’t just out to scam her. I see virginity as her valuing her sexuality, not something being broken.

    So, I agree with Mike that N=0 is not the same as low-N, and add that neither would be undesirable. High-N would not be acceptable for LTR / commitment.

  • Mike C

    Did she attach to you like velcro or something?

    Yes

  • Iggles

    You are correct about that but forgive me for saying, I sense an air of bitterness or jealousy in your tone here, as well as from some other women. Just like a lot of guys in the Manosphere are bitter that other people are engaged in happy relationships.

    Spoken like a High N woman with agenda. If you say so, PJ.. :roll:

    Take the red pill Iggles

    Already have!

    The blue pill view is to believe what you’ve been told, even though you see in practice things work quite differently. Red pill is recognizing the BS and identifying what truly works.

    @Ion:

    “Again, should I believe what you say or what you (and so many other men) do?”

    The same thing men do when women claim they want “nice guys” when looking at their long list of contradicting choices and excuses. Believe what they do.

    + 100!

    It’s the same principle. Just like people who claim they “don’t like drama!” actually LOVE drama in their relationships..

    There’s no cure for shyness, but experience helps, and shy girls should develop enough experience early on with men (casual or otherwise) while she’s young enough to, even if it’s hard to do so initially. She should aim for moderate experience by her early 20s. If she can

    Yep! I had to do this recently, when started dating again last August. I did not do any casual, but I got experience with going on dates and showing romantic interest in men. I learned lessons I missed out on as a shy, introverted teen! I was in a 4 year LTR during my early 20s but we didn’t start out with traditional “dating” (we were friends first).

  • Cooper

    @SayWhaat

    Just a guess, but it your friends new fiancé years older?

  • INTJ

    @ Madelena

    I know this because my family lived in the Middle East (Gulf area) for a long time and we got familiar with legal system due to various first and second hand divorce cases.
    The system is very patriarichal (I always laugh when Western feminists talk about “the patriarchy”) and divorce laws are extremely favourable to men.

    The Gulf area with its brand of Salafi Islam is hardly representative of the Muslim world though.

  • Lokland

    Hmmm.

    Almost feel ashamed for having a wife with N=1.

    I honestly can’t see the connection between a preference for low N and then all the bitching about it. Its like asking someone to logically defend why they find brown eyes better than blue eyes.

    On another note, I’m gone until PJ is, too much headache.

  • JP

    “Did she attach to you like velcro or something?

    Yes”

    In high school, I once had to store a friend in my basement for a few days after he broke up with a now-not-a-virgin girlfriend due to the unleashed rage caused by him dumping her.

  • Abbot

    ” I think it conflates and misleads the discussion to treat zero and low N as the exact same thing.”

    Note that high-N women / feminists constantly conflate that with the intention to mislead and even shame. Whenever the matter comes up, they almost always pull the virgin card. “Oh you want a virgin, you insecure weakling” and the like. They’re attitude is if a girl is not a virgin, what difference does it make if she rode the multi penis train.

  • SayWhaat

    Cooper, yes, he is 27 and she is 24.

  • INTJ

    @ Ian

    For science majors, multiply by zero.

    Clearly you’ve never met a STEM slut. Which is surprising, given how common they’re.

  • Mike C

    The point is the same: low-N women face a higher cost in this SMP.

    No, not really because men are not going to “penalize” a low-N woman in the same way they might “penalize” a virgin. Thinking low-N women face a “higher cost” is projection pure and simple. The difficult is isolating and understanding the real thing one is being “penalized” for. *Some* low N women (not all by any means) may be passed over or ignored for other reasons not directly related to their low N. For example, low N women might be less bubbly and playful than their high N counterparts and men tend to prefer bubbly and playful women over super serious ones.

  • JuTR

    INTJ, it may not be all flavors of Islam, but it sure is the one that is being exported and taught around the world funded by Saudi petrodollars.

    And if Islam is so accessible, why do muftis and imams insist that only by reading the Koran in original Arabic can one understand Mohammed and his life? None of them dispute the Koran, though they may disagree on which Hadiths provide strong or weak support for understanding Mohammed and Islam.

    Regardless of the practices, the pillars remain the same, and no school of Islam rejects Jihad, nor Sharia, only slight differences in implementation. Mohammed is still considered the man to emulate, FOR ALL TIME. Qur’an 33:21. This means that owning slaves, consummating marriages with pre-pubescent children, killing Jews, and basically acting like a pillaging warlord is highly recommended for all Muslim males.

    It has some problematic issues in its theological underpinnings that cross all schools of Islam.

  • Cooper

    @Just1Z

    ” haven’t even opened the wine yet!)”

    What are you waiting for!

    @INTJ
    ” this puts me in the ironic position of pushing for sex and hoping I’m turned down…”

    Yeah, I can relate, cause it’s something I had to get over. (Which is the only thing I can advise) Try thinking about it like opening a door for a girl, if it helps. Or like saying you P&Qs. Bottomline is they want you to escalate, and enjoy it when you do.

    Re: men NOT liking low-N women.

    I think a guy not liking a inexperienced girl just speaks to what he must be looking for – a fun romp in the sack, more all else. Iow, a short-term fling.
    Also that he wants it to be very casual, and not lock him into something emotional.
    It’s not rocket science that a guy primarily looking for a ONS, is going to find a low-N, or virgin, woman too much trouble.

  • Oz

    “And getting reality shows.”

    Them and hoarders and ugly kid Baby Boo Boo or Honey Foo Foo or whatever else she’s called. All white trash.

    “Spoken like a High N woman with agenda. If you say so, PJ.. :roll:”

    Sure. I come from a culture so conservative you couldn’t last 2 seconds in, boo.

    More like spoken like someone who actually detects bitterness that they’ve been sold a lie and come to find out the truth.

    Number does not matter if you’re hot, feminine, have a great personality and make a guy feel like a special snowflake.

    Deep in our gut us females KNOW this intuitively but we still want to believe the lie because we don’t fit into that % of women who fill all the markers of the above.

    The sooner you swallow this bitter pill Iggles, the sooner you can find yo’self a boo, boo.

  • Mike C

    Also, Mike, that was a casual sex situation. Apples and oranges.

    Ehh…it was a bit more complicated than that. Truthfully, I’m not sure how “casual” it was for her. That was part of the issue. Frankly, I’m not sure a virgin is capable of a “casual” first encounter. In my view, the experience with that first partner is different in a way from any partner afterwards. Escoffier once had some great comments to this effect.

    Which really is my point. I don’t think a virgin is really capable of “casual” sex nor has any inkling on how the act is going to change their perceptions afterwards. Most guys correctly sense there is going to be some pressure or expectations with being someone’s first so in some cases it is a situation that might be pragmatically avoided.

  • Ted D

    Oz – “Ted, do you value your wife as much as you can? Yes or no.”

    That’s a trick question. I value my wife as much as I can within the constraints of environmental factors. (such as her past or her N) I could potentially value her more if those factors were different in one direction, and she wouldn’t be my wife today if they went in the other.

    It sounds to me like you are implying that my current level of “value” is good enough. If you are good with that, then I guess there are no problems. But the flip side is: that value could have been higher, and that higher value would have come with a bit more in terms of security and comfort for both of us in the relationship. Instead we had to work harder to get there, because her past caused me to have trust issues, and she was concerned that I wouldn’t value her enough to overcome those trust issues. It was a huge sore spot for us, and continues to be a little tender. We don’t talk too much about the past in general because of it.

    I suppose this is related to work ethic. Some people are perfectly fine with doing the bare minimum to collect a paycheck. Other people always try to do their best regardless of whether or not the payoff at the end is better. In most cases I tend to fall on the latter side, because the “payoff” for me isn’t necessarily the paycheck, although I certainly take that check home and spend it.

    Same thing applies here. Just because a high N woman finds a guy to marry her, doesn’t mean she couldn’t have done better. And just because a guy marries a high N girl, doesn’t mean he isn’t just doing the minimum amount of work to get is paycheck. Perhaps he doesn’t realize there are better paychecks available to him, or perhaps he is simply satisfied with a half-assed job.

  • Cooper

    @Lokland
    “Almost feel ashamed for having a wife with N=1.”

    Your not serious, right?

    @SayWhaat
    Hmm. By older, I thought closer 10years apart. Like 24/32 or something.

  • Ion

    “1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be feminine, nurturing, sweet, flirtatious and responsive 3. Maintain a low N

    1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of men, and if a woman is high enough on 1 and 2, the man will rationalize however he needs to to move past 3.”

    Personally, what I’ve seen:

    1. Be OK looking– be average + or – 1 point from 5. Not gorgeous, and not hideous.

    2. Be contagious, life of the party, have the ability to “carry” a man socially.

    3. Hand select an average beta, flirt hard with him, show him that you’re amazing, carefree and spirited. He might even be flattered that a girl who’s had experience with many men will have him. Ultimately he “won the prize”.

    4. Have a number between no greater than 35. But a number of 0 is an automatic disqualifier.

    Option #3 is the main qualifier for LTR/marriage.

  • Oz

    “On another note, I’m gone until PJ is, too much headache.”

    My how passive/aggressive. Especially considering none of the comments are directed toward you.

  • Oz

    “INTJ, it may not be all flavors of Islam, but it sure is the one that is being exported and taught around the world funded by Saudi petrodollars. ”

    Bingo! Why do so many South Asian Muslims, no matter where in the world they reside, adopt this form of Islam, even if their parents and grand-parents did not adopt it?

  • INTJ

    @ JP

    And they are all completely different places with different cultures, which doesn’t answer my question in the slightest.

    Not to mention India alone has at least a dozen different cultures in it.

  • Oz

    Ted, “It sounds to me like you are implying that my current level of “value” is good enough. If you are good with that, then I guess there are no problems. ”

    I’m not the one who has to be “good with that”. Your wife is.

  • INTJ

    @ JuTR

    INTJ, it may not be all flavors of Islam, but it sure is the one that is being exported and taught around the world funded by Saudi petrodollars.

    Yeah. The petrodollars that come from us buying oil from the Saudis, and supporting the Gulf governments with foreign aid. All while we attack secular countries like Libya and Syria (and sanction Shia Iran).

    Salafi Islam would not exist today if it weren’t for historical Western support.

  • Oz

    “Not to mention India alone has at least a dozen different cultures in it.”

    An NRI who doesn’t make many trips? India has literally thousands of cultures.

    He asked where I’m from and I stated I’m South Asian and have lived in 5 different South Asian countries. I’m not “from” any one place, unless he wants my birth country, which I’ve spent the least amount of time in: Nepal.

    I think its already been clear for a long time that I’m culturally Hindu and Jain.

  • INTJ

    @ Oz

    Let’s say you go on 6 dates with a woman over 6 weeks. First day, no touching. 2nd date, light touching like pushing the hair out of her eyes, 3rd date, hold her hand. 4th date, kiss her. 5 the date – kiss more passionately and make out. We’re already 6 weeks now and you can add to the previous one.

    Correct me if I’m wrong – but I don’t think mere kissing is exactly what people have in mind when they refer to sexual escalation.

  • Oz

    Personally, what I’ve seen:

    1. Be OK looking– be average + or – 1 point from 5. Not gorgeous, and not hideous.

    2. Be contagious, life of the party, have the ability to “carry” a man socially.

    3. Hand select an average beta, flirt hard with him, show him that you’re amazing, carefree and spirited. He might even be flattered that a girl who’s had experience with many men will have him. Ultimately he “won the prize”.

    4. Have a number between 1 and no greater than 35. But a number of 0 is an automatic disqualifier.

    Option #3 is the main qualifier for LTR/marriage.”

    - I can manage 1 and 4.

  • Oz

    “Salafi Islam would not exist today if it weren’t for historical Western support.”

    We can’t know that.

    Also, there’s no reason it MUST exist, even with Western support.

    As a kind of/sort of South Asian of Hindu cultural extraction, you out of everyone here should be aware of Islam’s history in *your ancestors* part of the world.

  • Lokland

    @PJ

    “My how passive/aggressive. Especially considering none of the comments are directed toward you.”

    Allow me to amend that for you,

    Your a pain in the ass whose commentary lacks both logic and honest debate. Its also at such an all consuming level that its not worth sorting through your shit to find the decent bits from everyone else.

    I can’t ban you myself so I’ll wait till you forget your crazy pills.

  • Ion

    “On another note, I’m gone until PJ is, too much headache.”

    :-( sigh.

  • Just1Z

    @Cooper
    I was manfully resisting until now…but you are right, it’ s gone 21:04 and I am now going to pop a cork…

    thanks for the moral support

  • Oz

    “Correct me if I’m wrong – but I don’t think mere kissing is exactly what people have in mind when they refer to sexual escalation.”

    I’m not saying don’t have sex with her, and neither did you. You said you didn’t want “early sex”. So I’ve given you a 6 week plan until sexual intercourse even becomes an issue. Some women enjoy the smoldering slow burning embers.

  • Ted D

    Ion – “Ultimately he “won the prize”.”

    That is the core of his future problems right there…

    Oz – “I’m not the one who has to be “good with that”. Your wife is.”

    Yep. And Nancy. and from the conversation here, I’d say plenty of other women as well.

  • Oz

    “Your a pain in the ass whose commentary lacks both logic and honest debate. ”

    Examples?

  • Iggles

    @ Oz/PJ:

    The sooner you swallow this bitter pill Iggles, the sooner you can find yo’self a boo, boo.

    THIS is a prime example of the hostility High N women direct toward Low N ones.

    Nice try at shaming but the devil in the details, PJ. I’m in a relationship. But why does that matter? What if I wasn’t? You would be able to gloat and feel superior that you have a leg up being “a woman of experience”?

    Stop trolling and grow up. You’re not fooling anyone with the numerous handles.

  • Jason

    M3 #6

    That was a terrific link. Watching the hamster spinning in the comments section was brilliant.

  • SayWhaat

    Most guys correctly sense there is going to be some pressure or expectations with being someone’s first so in some cases it is a situation that might be pragmatically avoided.

    Ok, I can understand that.

  • Joe

    I swore I wouldn’t do this, but I’m commenting on this without reading further.

    Take the red pill Iggles:

    Low or no N has no value in and of itself.

    PJ/Oz is dead wrong about the value of “N” and virginity. More accurately, it’s the damage done by promiscuity that’s the real problem. And let me tell you, the value of N that connotes promiscuity for both males and females is one heck of a lot lower than generally assumed here, and it’s certainly a lot lower historically too.

    I’m surprised that this gets dismissed as soon as someone identifies this as a “religious view” or something.

    Not to get all preachy on you (the general reader), but it’s not right to shunt religious values off to the side, as if that means they don’t apply to most or to you. I mean, six thousand years of accumulated wisdom is not dismissed so easily.

  • Tasmin

    So my views don’t hold water. No worries. For the record, I have elected to discontinue relationships because of sexual histories. And this doesn’t include the women that I chose to avoid from the get-go because of the image they advertised. While at the time I recognized that I might be making a “mistake” in ending it (scarcity), I also recognized that I respect myself and my own values first and that is all that I really ask of my future partner. Respect yourself and your values, expect the same from your partner.

    Stating a hard number is just not that relevant. But at some point the math has to jive with what she says about her beliefs. Most men do the math. For those women, their N mattered. Context was part of the discussion and the discussion happened for a reason, but ultimately there was a tipping point.

    N doesn’t matter, until it matters to the man you want. And if it matters “enough” for him to end it, then it might just feel like that is all that mattered. People get passed on, DQ’s for all kinds of reasons. Closure got mentioned on the other thread, but only one of these women knew why I ended it. So it may not show up in the statistics or bottomless mimosa brunch with the girls, but they got DQ for their N. Be careful to draw conclusions from only looking at half of the results (high N women getting married, finding a BF, a LTR). That totally ignores what may have happened along the way.

    There is a continuum here, we all pick where we chose to engage. As always, do what you want, but my advice would be to focus on and engage in the things that are more likely to be universally viewed as positives long before you start chasing the bar down because it seems to “work” for everyone else. If this was easy, if the SMP was “fair” or even just provided better visibility, this wouldn’t be much of a debate. But its not, it doesn’t, and N matters.

    And FWIW, discussions I’ve had about history are always about whether or not N matters to HER. Not my N, but hers. What value does she place on “it”? I place high value on my commitment because I screen like hell, share it rarely and only with high-quality women with the intent to see it through, and I can say that full knowing my past actions support that belief and because I am willing to be alone, invisible, at a competitive disadvantage, even marginalized because I place my intimacy and commitment in the same bucket. If she can come anywhere close to that relative to her views on intimacy and commitment, then we are looking good, all while N may not even enter the conversation.

  • Oz

    “Nice try at shaming but the devil in the details, PJ. I’m in a relationship. But why does that matter? What if I wasn’t? You would be able to gloat and feel superior that you have a leg up being “a woman of experience”?”

    I’m pretty sure, given my cultural background and religious involvement, that my “N” falls below yours, but go on witchu slut shamin’ self, boo.

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    1. Be OK looking– be average + or – 1 point from 5. Not gorgeous, and not hideous.

    Yup. As restricted guys, we don’t care as much about looks, so we figure we can use it as a “dump stat” so to speak, and get a better deal by going for not so good looking girls. The girl still needs to pass the boner test though, yielding a minimum attractiveness of ~4. Thus, we go for the worst looking girls who pass the boner test, which are usually 4-6 in attractiveness.

    2. Be contagious, life of the party, have the ability to “carry” a man socially.

    I think this is overstated. Yes, it’s important to be upbeat, but you don’t have to be the life of the party. Obviously, extroverted guys will prefer their female counterparts, and there is also a general preference for extroversion in our society. Still, there are plenty of introverted guys who prefer shy girls.

    3. Hand select an average beta, flirt hard with him, show him that you’re amazing, carefree and spirited. He might even be flattered that a girl who’s had experience with many men will have him. Ultimately he “won the prize”.

    It’s the bolded part that guys want. The unbolded part is just unfortunate baggage that tends to come with girls who will do the bolded part.

    4. Have a number between no greater than 35. But a number of 0 is an automatic disqualifier.

    Most guys will have slut angst with girls who have a double digit N. Sure, it probably won’t be a dealbreaker, unlike an astronomical N greater than 35. But it’ll certainly be the cause of significant heartbreak and rocky patches in the relationship.

    #3 is the main qualifier for LTR/marriage.

    Definitely. As Mike C pointed out, most guys operate from a scarcity mindset. Thus, the single biggest qualifier is showing clear interest.

  • INTJ

    @ Iggles re: PJ

    THIS is a prime example of the hostility High N women direct toward Low N ones.

    Agreed.

  • Oz

    “Thus, we go for the worst looking girls who pass the boner test, which are usually 4-6 in attractiveness.”

    Interesting. Why not go for the better looking who pass the boner test but who are not totally intimidating like the really hot women?

  • Just1Z

    we are at peej-con 4

    PJ just a suggestion (friendly one), why not take the rest of the day off and save yourself another ban?

    chill sister. Iggles isn’ t an enemy, you usually know that.

    only trying to help, fwiw

  • Ion

    “The sooner you swallow this bitter pill Iggles, the sooner you can find yo’self a boo, boo.”

    Sigh. Banging your head against some guy’s dashboard with the smell of alcohol on your breath does not mean you’re more qualified to discuss relationships PJ. Especially since Iggles was in a relationship the whole time you were doing so.

  • INTJ

    @ Oz

    Interesting. Why not go for the better looking who pass the boner test but who are not totally intimidating like the really hot women?

    Girls like Olive? Those girls have higher SMV and guys assume they’re harder to land, though we don’t rule out the possibility of getting lucky. :D

  • Cooper

    @Iggles
    “You would be able to gloat and feel superior that you have a leg up..?”

    *splits gut!!*

  • Ian

    Oz

    Ted, do you value your wife as much as you can? Yes or no.

    Too personal. Based on all available information, Ted’s older posts and opinions, the answer is a resounding “no”. Asking him to admit it is more like a dare, testing the inclination to insult his wife publicly.

    Ted

    And again, I personally gave up on low N because the pool of women I was fishing in was in the 30+ range. What are the chances of finding a 30-something woman with an N of less than 4 outside of very religious circles?

    I actually worry about ending up in the position to make that choice. If ever attractive low-N women are off the table, do I choose unattractive low-N, attractive high-N, or the Pasture?

    @Whomever

    Men don’t give a rat’s ass what Jessica Alba’s or Roseanne Barr’s number is.

    Probably the only thing that bothers me about the current SMP is the waste of the Alba/Upton natural resource. I internally cry a slow Indian-commercial tear at the paradox of an unattractive attractive women.

  • Oz

    “chill sister. Iggles isn’ t an enemy, you usually know that.”

    I’m not the hostile one here. I gave her the red pill (as did Mike C), and she’s pulling the standard go to “slut card”, and why? I figured it out before she did?

    I simply stated that all her comments prior do sound a bit resentful over the fact that looks and feewings trump number. Its the same with blue pill men who feel they’ve been “lied” to all their lives about women. They are shocked when the “truth” comes out.

    But really, deep in our guts, us humans know the score. Deep down we do know how the world works because we see it around us in full swing every day, all day.

    No amount of “women want nice guys” and “men value low N” soundbytes or internet memes changes any of it.

    Yes, women want a certain “type” of nice guy and men want a certain “type” of low N gal.

    The “nice” and low N in and of themselves hold no value.

    It can be tough to swallow, especially for very young people and idealistic people. I had to swallow at a very young age and it was tough for me too.

    Join the club.

  • JP

    “we are at peej-con 4

    PJ just a suggestion (friendly one), why not take the rest of the day off and save yourself another ban?

    chill sister. Iggles isn’ t an enemy, you usually know that.

    only trying to help, fwiw”

    What normally happens here?

    Massive chain posting and rage?

  • Ion

    @ INTJ I agree with your entire comment at 697.

    “Thus, we go for the worst looking girls who pass the boner test, which are usually 4-6 in attractiveness.”

    The problem with this is, if you factor in extraversion, this is probably the most promiscuous group (also the largest population of people, so there’s bound to be at least a few who don’t fit the unrestricted category).

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Tasmin @ 695
    “N doesn’t matter, until it matters to the man you want.”

    I am so damn tempted to link to my own post about sluts.. instead, i’ll just link to the picture i used to describe this sentiment you allude to.

    http://whoism3.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/awkwardindeed.jpg?w=450&h=443

    And i’ve started a new clothing line of apparel to for all the ladies who are proud to wear their number on their sleeve… err… chest?

    http://whoism3.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/slut-tanktop.jpg?w=450&h=450

  • Oz

    Ion, “Banging your head against some guy’s dashboard with the smell of alcohol on your breath does not mean you’re more qualified to discuss relationships PJ. ”

    I’ve never drank alcohol in my entire life Ion. I am a practicing Jain-Hindu and we eschew drugs. I guess you’re new here so you don’t know my background so perhaps I should let it slide?

    However I’d like to ask where in any of my recent comments do I even give off a whiff of a hint that my lifestyles is such?

    Or is just standard practice amongst Western people to assume the worst about women because of your cultural “values” or lack thereof?

    Or is it because I’ve clearly figured out the red pill reality of your so called “sexual marketplace”?

    Seriously, from where the hell did this “high N” assumption come from?

  • Just1Z

    @Cooper
    I am putting you in charge of all future alcofrol decisions. this Shiraz is great…

    Just watching Mulan – not bad. not the dismal cartoon version, the Chinese live action one. not bad at all

  • Iggles

    @ Oz/PJ:

    I’m pretty sure, given my cultural background and religious involvement, that my “N” falls below yours, but go on witchu slut shamin’ self, boo.

    Still trollin’ I see!

    Given how you’ve talked about your past exploits with various so-called beautiful men I doubt you’re N < 2.

    INTJ, Just1Z, and Ion – Thanks :)

  • JP

    “I’ve never drank alcohol in my entire life Ion. I am a practicing Jain-Hindu and we eschew drugs. ”

    I’ve heard of Jainism, but what’s a Jain-Hindu?

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    The problem with this is, if you factor in extraversion, this is probably the most promiscuous group (also the largest population of people, so there’s bound to be at least a few who don’t fit the unrestricted category).

    Yup. I’ve realized I should be aiming for the introverted 7-10s who tend to be overlooked by all the other restricted guys. They’re less likely to be promiscuous and as an added bonus, happen to be pretty too. I’m not complaining. :D

  • JP

    It just occurred to me that you could create an “N” tool for Facebook.

  • Madelena

    @Mike C

    1. Maximize physical attractiveness – face, body, hair, etc. 2. Be feminine, nurturing, sweet, flirtatious and responsive 3. Maintain a low N

    1&2 trump 3 by orders of magnitude for the overwhelming majority of men, and if a woman is high enough on 1 and 2, the man will rationalize however he needs to to move past 3.

    My response:

    Thank you for the acknowledgement of the reality. You summed it up well.

    As someone said up above, perhaps the best strategy for a resticted woman is to date as frequently as possible, ensure she has reached her maximum attractivenss. and not hesitate to escalate phyiscally and emotionally, without sleeping around. That is the most optimal strategy to get her to be on the radar of as many men as possible, while keeping her integrity intact.

  • Cooper

    @Just1Z
    “I am putting you in charge of all future alcofrol decisions. this Shiraz is great…”

    Good to hear :) (when I saw your comment saying you hadn’t opened it, I thought “but it’s getting late, for him!”)

    —-

    I’m still busting a guy to Iggles pun!

  • Oz

    “Given how you’ve talked about your past exploits with various so-called beautiful men I doubt you’re N < 2."

    Because in YOUR culture "dating" means sex.

    JP, my family is comprised of practicing Hindus and practicing Jains (and some Muslims and other religions in the extended family).
    Though technically, Jainism falls under the category of Hinduism though it is considered a naishtik school.

    I identify culturally as Jain-Hindu.

  • INTJ

    @ Madelena

    As someone said up above, perhaps the best strategy for a resticted woman is to date as frequently as possible, ensure she has reached her maximum attractivenss. and not hesitate to escalate phyiscally and emotionally, without sleeping around. That is the most optimal strategy to get her to be on the radar of as many men as possible, while keeping her integrity intact.

    Absolutely. Though emotional escalation is far more important than physical. Also, escalation early on through indicators of interest during the approach phase is far more crucial than later escalation during the dating/relationship phase.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Really? I hang out with a very liberal lefty group, and even those women are eager to state that their son’s girlfriends are “good girls.” And moms gossip viciously and judgmentally about the daughters who are the “town bikes” and what that says about how they were raised. Feminism notwithstanding, parents don’t want daughters to be sluts or sons to commit to sluts.

    Just guessing here, but I’d predict that if the story from the OP was told to them, they’d probably say something along the lines of the guy being an insecure loser, creep, “not msn enough”, etc. for not being able to handle her past.

    At least that’s how most of the upper class, intellectual variety liberals I know would react to it.

    But I’ve found that a lot of times their abstract ideals come into conflict with practicality in their personal lives (i.e. mom’s not wanting their sons to date sluts, etc.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy Hendricks

      But I’ve found that a lot of times their abstract ideals come into conflict with practicality in their personal lives (i.e. mom’s not wanting their sons to date sluts, etc.)

      I’m sure you’re right, that explains it. Sluts for thee but not for me (and mine).

  • JP

    Testing new image.

  • Oz

    Madelen, “As someone said up above, perhaps the best strategy for a resticted woman is to date as frequently as possible, ensure she has reached her maximum attractivenss. and not hesitate to escalate phyiscally and emotionally, without sleeping around. That is the most optimal strategy to get her to be on the radar of as many men as possible, while keeping her integrity intact.”

    Exactly what I’ve done and it works.

    However most of the men I’ve dated were either cultured men in other countries or foreigners in this one.

    Don’t know how or even if it would work with your average American man.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    What normally happens here?

    Massive chain posting and rage?

    Yeah she is like a ONS with a douchebag. She starts slow seductive , you think it might be special give in and then bangs you without caring if you are enjoying yourself and after she is done, no cuddling, you get a “I have an early meeting” while you get handed your clothes and opens the door. You just wasted time and didn’t even enjoy it.

  • Ion

    ” I guess you’re new here so you don’t know my background so perhaps I should let it slide?”

    “Evil begets evil, Mr. President. Shooting will only make it stronger.” ~Priest Cornelius, The Fifth Element.

    Anyway, your background changes every thirty seconds. That, I’ve seen since I’ve been there.

  • JP

    Working now?

  • JP

    Annoying (I’m just switching to a Carter poster – Carter Cheats the Gallows , no Jedi hampsters).

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Given how you’ve talked about your past exploits with various so-called beautiful men I doubt you’re N < 2.

    My guess is that she only counts PinV so yeah under that criteria her number is low. But she has been single for as long as she has been posted so something else is going on that all those beautiful men are not committing to her…I wonder what can that be?

  • Oz

    “Anyway, your background changes every thirty seconds.”

    That’s my moniker. The comment MO remains the same. And in none of my comments do I reference alcohol or sleeping around, so the slut shaming card was pulled out because that’s the “go to” card for anyone you disagree with.

    Much like the Manosphere will play the Feminazi or NAM card.

  • Just1Z

    @Iggles
    no problem. you were gracious to me when I had cause to apologise to you. though PJ often grates on me, she is seldom that nasty. her complaining about alleged slut shaming has me a little perplexed! I thought that she was a sex positive feminist… I would blame the wine, but it’ s early days yet. confused!

  • Iggles

    PJ – Can’t admit when you’re wrong, can you??

    Stop hiding behind your religion. There are plenty of people from conservative background who have had premarital sex! You evaded answering about whether your N is less than 2. I have a good idea why..

    Ion – Spot on! PJ invents a new background every time she’s called on her past statement.

    Deflect. Deflect. Deflect.
    Rinse. Wash. Repeat. :roll:

  • JP

    There we go.

    Much better.

    He was a contemporary and friend of Houdini, in case anyone was curious.

    The prior avatar was from the book “Carter Beats the Devil”. This avatar is from an actual Carter poster.

    “A native of San Francisco, California, Carter began his career as a journalist and lawyer. As time passed, he grew an interest in magic. Due to stiff competition from the number of magic acts on the American stages at the time, Carter opted to pursue his career abroad, where he achieved his greatest fame. Among the highlights of Carter’s stage performances during his career were the classic “sawing a woman in half” illusion (an elaborate surgical-themed version with “nurses” in attendance), making a live elephant disappear and “cheating the gallows”, where a shrouded Carter would vanish, just as he dropped at the end of a hangman’s noose.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Carter

  • Bell

    Thank you Madelana for writing so eloquently what I had tried to say!

    So, my ultimate take away (from the actions of men) is that a high N is not a major disqualifier but a minor setback in relation to if you have a feminine, flirty, and sensual appearance. On the other hand, a low N is nice but it’s not something that is mandatory or very important.
    Like I said before this makes me feel much relief about my sexuality. Although I am a very low N girl, I don’t think I’m naturally restricted. It just takes a lot of self discipline (in combination with a traditional upbringing that shamed women for promiscuity ) to not seek out a partner when the mood strikes. Now, I just have to be careful to never cross too closely into the high N territory.

  • Oz

    ” though PJ often grates on me, she is seldom that nasty. her complaining about alleged slut shaming has me a little perplexed!”

    Just1Z, Iggles accused me of having a high N (why I have no idea), and Ion accused my head banging on some dude’s dashboard with my breath reeking of alcohol.

    Both clearly are under the impression that I’m from their own culture(s) and behave in manners that they grew up either with or around.

    I have no idea why. Everyone here knows that I’m a South Asian Hindu. I’ve made that clear dozens of times despite the fact that Susan has asked me not to use the D word!

    You’re not the only one who is “perplexed”.

  • Tasmin

    @Ian
    “I actually worry about ending up in the position to make that choice. If ever attractive low-N women are off the table, do I choose unattractive low-N, attractive high-N, or the Pasture?”

    I think that’s why it is silly to sum it up as N doesn’t matter. Men in all positions ponder this in a variety of forms. At some point we all have to chose reality over our image of the woman we want, and vice-versa, but I think it is important to hold onto what we believe and not shrink our universe of options out of fear or scarcity. Yet it takes work to find ways to meet, attract, and build trust with those who share our beliefs and it is our job to do that work. If we do these things, our priorities in terms of what is important to us and how those are reflected in actions and beliefs in the women we meet will sort themselves out.

    Some of how/why N doesn’t seem to matter is that there are still enough men out there who value marriage more than getting what they want in terms of low N – or any other quality they feel is important. But in a time when marriage is getting pushed further out and the benefits to a man are under increasing scrutiny, and throw in a growing status gap between women and men, and the result is a growing population of men contemplating that question above.

    I was having a beer at a pub with a friend this past weekend and he was chatting about this very thing. He’s 41, was in a LTR that ended a couple of years back and just casually mentioned how aggressive sexually women are, how quickly sex is either demanded or given up (“they want to bang and then its either next or lets do this”), and how women our age (over 35) “no longer have N around 10 or 15 but in the 30′s or 40′s”. And he is trying to wrap his head around that.

    He’s trying to figure out how to engage in the SMP to find what he wants and in attempting to do that he has found that he can do whatever he wants, can get regular sex if he wants, and is finding his appetite for 3o-something high N women to be rapidly shrinking. IOW, his view of marrying is melting away. Is it just about N? certainly not, but that has *something* to do with it. And he’s a fit, handsome lawyer who just got a number from a 25 y/o.

    In many ways he should be a beneficiary of the SMP: the sex-first attitudes, the low bar in terms of “dating”, good-looking + status. Yet he wants to marry a 35 y/o with a low N and so he’s thinking “I missed my window” but at the same time his pasture doesn’t look so bad. He’s no player – though he could be if he wanted. But he’s thinking that he’d rather go without marriage than lock-down a high N woman. So there are the men who value marriage above many things and then there are plenty of men who are dabbling with the pasture or focusing only on younger women in hopes of snagging, among other things, a low N woman. Grain of salt anecdote.

  • Ion

    “Much like the Manosphere will play the Feminazi or NAM card.”

    I could have sworn that you said you had a high N at some point, I think Iggles got the same impression, so maybe you made a typo. It is possible that your feminist whining was construed as high N. Anyway, water under bridge, yea?

  • JP

    “Yet it takes work to find ways to meet, attract, and build trust with those who share our beliefs and it is our job to do that work. ”

    Step 1: Determine your beliefs.

  • Just1Z

    @Cooper
    special bonus points for “but it’s getting late, for him!” BTW

    quality nice!

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I will readily admit that high N women find high N men sexually attractive. Restricted women, not so much.

    Depends on what you define “high N” as. The threshold for what women think is high seems to be a lot higher than what men think is high.

  • Oz

    “Anyway, water under bridge, yea?”

    Only if it’s fortified with “feel good hormones” ;)

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @SayWhaat
    I honestly think a lot of your past troubles as a virgin stem from being in NYC. Everything I’ve heard about that place makes it sound like hell on earth for traditionally minded people.

    I agree that the “perfect American small town” isn’t coming back, as others have said… But there are still plenty of cities out there that are still fairly conservative/family minded… Charlotte, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc.

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    Yeah she is like a ONS with a douchebag. She starts slow seductive , you think it might be special give in and then bangs you without caring if you are enjoying yourself and after she is done, no cuddling, you get a “I have an early meeting” while you get handed your clothes and opens the door. You just wasted time and didn’t even enjoy it.

    ROFL this is so spot on!

  • Oz

    “The threshold for what women think is high seems to be a lot higher than what men think is high.”

    INTJ, you’re threshold is not the average Western man’s threshold. See this comment above,

    “I was having a beer at a pub with a friend this past weekend and he was chatting about this very thing. He’s 41, was in a LTR that ended a couple of years back and just casually mentioned how aggressive sexually women are, how quickly sex is either demanded or given up (“they want to bang and then its either next or lets do this”), and how women our age (over 35) “no longer have N around 10 or 15 but in the 30′s or 40′s”. And he is trying to wrap his head around that.”

    10 and 15 are considered “old school low or moderate Ns” in the Anglo-American and Eurosphere, INTJ.

    You and I are clearly products of a different culture. Do not confuse those standards with those of the standards the majority of commenters on this blog hold.

  • JP

    “10 and 15 are considered “old school low or moderate Ns” in the Anglo-American and Eurosphere, INTJ.”

    I consider that 10-15 really high (for anybody), and I’m an under-40 non-fundamentalist non-evangelical WASP.

  • Oz

    “Ah, I can’t recall if we were talking about the guy’s opinion of the woman or the real effect on her as a result of her experiences. If it’s the latter, then there is probably a baseline for each woman where her psychology is adversely affected. Bastiat Blogger referred to this. For some women, that may be 5, for another it may be 25. It depends a lot on how she’s wired. ”

    Not only wiring, but culture. For example a few comments above I quote Tasmin quoting an older man. That he thinks 10 and 15 are low N is unthinkable for someone of my cultural background.

    Similarly, “relationship sex” also considered promiscuous from my culture’s perspective.

    I’m not saying this is right or that I even agree with it fully, I’m just saying NURTURE plays a part right along with nature, in how we perceive everything.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Whoa, INTJ, you just blew my mind. I have never thought of this before. That is quite a conundrum.

    Thanks! It’s a big dilemma us restricted guys have given the current script.

    I think that since you have zero interest in promiscuous women, you will obviously calibrate to the girl you’re interested in. For her, sexual escalation might comprise a first date kiss, second date makeout, third date dry humping, etc. You don’t need to get anywhere close to P in V before you’ve decided to be exclusive. Obviously, Susie Sorority Slut is going to expect you to whip it out the same night you meet. So it’s important to fish in the right pond.

    Yup. I’m thinking I should physically escalate while keeping things from getting too far along too fast sexually. Plus, I can probably apply the advice you’ve given to women about communicating sexual interest without actually putting out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Plus, I can probably apply the advice you’ve given to women about communicating sexual interest without actually putting out.

      Definitely. I recall suggesting a script along the lines of “I find you incredibly sexy, I am very tempted. But I’ve never done casual and I’m not going to start now. I know I’m not wired for it.” And then do whatever you feel ready for. I think a woman of restricted sexuality will appreciate that you are tempted and that you are not going to pressure her hard early on.

  • JP

    “You don’t need to get anywhere close to P in V before you’ve decided to be exclusive. Obviously, Susie Sorority Slut is going to expect you to whip it out the same night you meet. So it’s important to fish in the right pond.”

    You don’t need to get close to P in V before marriage, if you don’t feel like it.

    (It never occurred to me that people really *did* think pre-marital sex was a good idea. Of course, I never understood why people wanted to swear, either.)

  • JP

    “Similarly, “relationship sex” also considered promiscuous from my culture’s perspective.”

    I pretty much thought that was the standard American definition of promiscuity, too.

  • Tasmin

    @M3
    Yep. That sums up my 1,000 words. I just want her to value her intimacy somewhere near where I value my own – and hers.

  • Oz

    “I pretty much thought that was the standard American definition of promiscuity, too.”

    Where are you from?

    Relationship sex only is considered sexually conservative in mainstream America. Only very observant religious people (a minority of Americans) would consider an adult man or woman who saves herself only for “relationship sex” as promiscuous, because it falls outside of their sex only within marriage parameters.

    Now, to a “relationship sex only” person, casual sex or one night stands is what is seen as promiscuous.

    So you see, its all relative.

  • Escoffier

    RE: shaming cads, I recall Zach saying that he rags on his friends when they fuck pigs, but not out of any moral objection, rather that they are slumming for the sake of quantity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I recall Zach saying that he rags on his friends when they fuck pigs, but not out of any moral objection, rather that they are slumming for the sake of quantity.

      No, I’m thinking of the debate about what constitutes an SMP winner. He mentioned there’s one guy who gets a lot of ONSs, but he is not smart and not at all ambitious, he’s kind of a slacker. Zach said the guys have zero respect for him and do not consider him an alpha or winner of any kind. Maybe Zach will show up and clarify.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    10 and 15 are considered “old school low or moderate Ns” in the Anglo-American and Eurosphere, INTJ.

    That’s in the 35+ crowd in big urban areas.

    It’d be looked at as very high for most 21-25 year olds in states like South Carolina, Kansas, etc.

  • INTJ

    On an unrelated note, I’m currently taking a Roman Archeology class at UC Berkeley. Lots of cute girls in the class. :) I’m on the lookout for any IOIs.

  • Oz

    “I think it’s only about 1. The psycho bitches that do so well are anything but nurturing or sweet. They’re entitled drama queens with daddy issues.

    I have known some guys who constantly claim they don’t like drama, and select for it again and again. I think some men are just drawn to “bad girls.”

    Are they both good looking – the psycho bitches and the men that are drawn to them like mosquitos to blood?

  • Escoffier

    Say “Hi!” to Berkeley for me!

  • Tasmin

    @Oz

    I’m not sure where exactly you stand or where you are going but FWIW the tone of my friends “10 or 15″ was not that 10 or 15 was desired, but that he thought that 10 or 15 was already out of his comfort zone and now he is encountering 2 to 3x that…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      If your 41 yo old friend is attractive, he ought to try going for a woman in her late 20s. He’s going to encounter women with lower N and less baggage. Bastiat Blogger shared some stories about 35+ women in his crowd and they sound sexually voracious with terrible personalities.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @M3 @Tasmin

    I just want her to value her intimacy somewhere near where I value my own – and hers.

    That’s how I see it too.

  • JP

    “Where are you from?”

    The WASP part of Pennsyltucky.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsyltucky

    The same people who elected Rick Santorum.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Santorum

  • JP

    We also elect pro-life Democrats.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Casey,_Jr.

  • Mike C

    RE: shaming cads, I recall Zach saying that he rags on his friends when they fuck pigs, but not out of any moral objection, rather that they are slumming for the sake of quantity.

    This was my recollection as well. To be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with Zach’s sexual lifestyle, but as I recall he was 20+ or even 30+. Its a bit odd to use him as an example of male on male shaming for the promotion of monogamy. If anything, Zach is one of the “sexual hogs/gluttons”. Again, I have zero issue with it at all. He and other men who are racking up numbers are simply capitalizing on the opportunities the current SMP presents.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with Zach’s sexual lifestyle, but as I recall he was 20+ or even 30+. Its a bit odd to use him as an example of male on male shaming for the promotion of monogamy. If anything, Zach is one of the “sexual hogs/gluttons”.

      We were talking specifically about shaming cads, not guys with high N. And he’s not shaming them for the sake of women, he’s shaming them because they are not honorable or respectable men. He is unwilling to respect a man just for getting his dick wet, that’s the point.

      Also, Zach has been avoiding casual sex and turning down offers, making him a man who has a lot of options, but doesn’t choose to exercise them. It doesn’t get any higher value than that.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Re: PJ/OZ/Ms. Hyde

    Am I the only that reads her comments and thinks what the hell is she doing here? For someone he claims to have an amazing globe trotting I “date” “beautiful” men all the time lifestyle, why does she pull a comment carpet bombing so frequently? Then to go on about claiming some lesser known culture, putting it on a giant flag and waving it in some kind of demonstration of demi-goddess like superiority to us regular folk. Give me a break! I think if you really do the shit you say you do IRL you wouldn’t even be on a site like this in the first place…

  • Escoffier

    Susan, isn’t there an element of choice in her situation, Susan? Not that I am an expert on family law, but couldn’t she–if she wanted to–use the court system to force him to pay?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Susan, isn’t there an element of choice in her situation, Susan? Not that I am an expert on family law, but couldn’t she–if she wanted to–use the court system to force him to pay?

      Yes, I believe she could. When he told her he wanted nothing to do with her or the child, she said OK. And she has not pursued him for support. If he had any character he would not let that boy grow up fatherless without contributing anything to his life.

      I suspect a very significant percentage of bio dads pay zero and are not asked for more.

  • Ion

    Iggles,

    I’m not sure if it’s even worth it to argue with her anymore. It seems like people have been debating with her much longer than I have, and it’s a lost cause.

    Remember her comments to Sassy assuming she drank colt 40s or whatever, and now she’s acting as if she’s going to cry because we assumed she had a high N, and don’t know if she is Hindu or Shiite? Plus didn’t she say that she prefers black guys, and loved rubbing her hands through her ex-boyfriends dredlocks? Are there lots of black guys with dreads in south east Asia? I also remember us discussing the men in NYC.

    This is all to derail, I think. Seems she does that when she can’t remember the argument she was trying to make.

  • Oz

    Well, JP, you’re one of the last of a dying breed, my friend.

    But anyway, the point is, what constitutes “promiscuity” is environmentally and culturally relative.

    INTJ, myself and you probably have “extremist” views in the minds of 99.9% of the West. And at the same time INTJ and I might both be considered “modern” (it has certain connotations in my culture) in even the moderate pockets of South Asia, simply for, gasp, DATING.

    That’s what “cultural relativity” is all about.

    There is no global standard, despite Saudi Arabia’s efforts in that direction ;)

  • Oz

    “Remember her comments to Sassy assuming she drank colt 40s ”

    Kool Aid. And it was a JOKE.

  • JP

    There is no diversity in Pensytucky, except for some Catholics here and there. Catholics were the strangest thing I ever encountered growing up. They had some

    It’s basically all German descent with some Polish. I think they all came through Philadelphia during the 1800′s and just stopped in Pensyltucky.

    I think that the issue might have been that the 1960′s never really happened. There wasn’t any women’s liberation thingy or anything.

    We also didn’t have any minorities, and thus no concern about any civil rights issues. Because there were no minorities as far as the eye could see. Except for a couple. We don’t know how they got there.

    Also, there are a few Jewish people and black people, but they lived in the city. And you don’t really go into the city because there was really nothing there. And there weren’t really many of them and you didn’t know any or see any.

    Evangelicals and fundamentalists were looked at as strange people with strange beliefs and strange churches.

  • JP

    “They probably have N of around 10-15 by now, at 24-25. Those are the guys who are turned off by N < 3, not just players."

    Guys at 10-15 are going to be turned off by N < 3 because they are not restricted.

    They are players.

  • Just1Z

    @PJ (I’m a traditionalist)
    “You’re not the only one who is “perplexed”

    Yeah, but I’m on my second glass of wine… :)

  • JP

    Here’s an article about the diversity of Pittsburgh.

    In all honesty, you don’t want to be a minority in Pensyltucky. I think that many of the black people are moving to the South.

    It’s very diverse (and much more liberal) compared to Pensyltucky:

    “Pittsburgh metro area named one of nation’s least diverse
    Monday, September 05, 2011
    By Gary Rotstein, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    It would be hard for any metropolitan area to be whiter than Pittsburgh.

    It’s so hard, in fact, that of the 100 largest metro areas in the United States, only one has a smaller share of blacks, Hispanics and Asians—the Scranton-Wilkes Barre region of northeastern Pennsylvania.

    A new Brookings Institution report released last week, examining 2010 census data on how Americans identified race and ethnicity, found that southwestern Pennsylvania is whiter even than the Amish country around Lancaster, the Mormon population center of Salt Lake City, Midwest agrarian capitals such as Des Moines, Iowa, and far more isolated places like Boise, Idaho.

    It is not stunningly new data for this former melting pot—findings from the 2000 census were much the same—but what might be eye-opening is that the pace of change toward greater diversity is even slower here than for all those places above, as well as the rest of America.

    The report called “The New Metro Minority Map,” by demographer William Frey, found that the 87 percent white population of greater Pittsburgh—Allegheny, Armstrong, Beaver, Butler, Fayette, Washington and Westmoreland counties—is exceeded only by Scranton’s 89 percent. The report noted 8 percent of metro Pittsburgh’s population identified themselves as black, 2 percent as Asian and 1 percent as Hispanic.

    Pittsburgh nudged down only slightly during the decade from its 89 percent white share in 2000, whereas the smaller Scranton area shifted more dramatically from a 96 percent white population 10 years earlier.”

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Regarding listen to what I say vs. listen to what I do,

    Do you want a full detail about HOW my relationship evolved? Yes, we may be at the 18 month mark now, me and my promiscous GF, but in that interval she cried many, many, MANY times, and was dumped before getting back into my good graces.

    It wasn’t exactly “oh, you’re high N, that doesn’t matter!”

    I’ll write something up after I finish exercising

  • Just1Z

    @PJ
    YOU’re low N! ?

    Great news! Let’s get it on Baby!

    With all our previous arguments we clearly have chemistry and suppressed passion! WOO-HOO! I would ask, “you’re place or mine?” But it’s snowing here so California here I come (ooh-err for the double entendre (which is not a French phrase BTW))

  • Just1Z

    More seriously, I definitely recommend the Chinese live action film Mulan. For boys and girls, it’s a cool film.

  • Oz

    “With all our previous arguments we clearly have chemistry and suppressed passion!”

    Pix or GTFO!

    Oh but I’m a vegan. And I don’t drink alcohol and am turned off by those who do. And I don’t kiss lips that have touched animal flesh. Online flirting is ok though. Let’s see some pix. ;)

  • Tasmin

    “If male comments are any indication, introverted/restricted girls who “waited” for a decent monogamous guy in their early-mid 20s are STILL held accountable for letting their youth fly by (they should’ve lowered their standards and dated betas 12 yrs older!), while watching promiscuous women marry whoever they wanted. So you’re held equally accountable.”

    Not so much. Suspicion as to why you are single, never been married, in your 30′s goes both ways. The concerns may be different, but both genders have to navigate through that. It may not seem “fair” as to how it plays out – which really is a function of the biological clock, but you know, life’s not fair. Thats what I was continuously reminded of by women until I was into my 20′s.

    “And that’s the best case scenario. Those women will have a hell of a time just convincing a guy they weren’t a “carousel watcher” if not actual rider.”

    This more so. But it cuts both ways. The difference is being the carousel is not viewed as negatively by women as women riding it is by men. Lets keep in mind that much of the suspicion re: “what happened in the 20′s” stuff is coming from men who spent their teens and a lot of their 20′s being rather invisible while working hard to build a career. Introversion/shy/restricted are not female only traits and in an SMP that is predicated primarily on extroverted, confident men approaching, the negative aspects of those traits are borne more heavily by the men and so many have a bone to pick.

    For some men, becoming the “settle down” guy is something they have to work through. It can be hard to manufacture confidence, to internalize the newfound – or yet to be fully discovered- SMV. It often has more to do with his path than hers. But in any case, there are also a lot of women who spent their 20′s in school and more school, taking holidays, finding themselves, not saving money, not learning important life lessons, not focusing on what men are really attracted to and desire in a wife and then flip the switch. They are a minority, but then these great, beautiful, shy, restricted women in their 30′s who haven’t found the man yet are becoming minorities with each passing year as well.

    I feel for the restricted/introverted women who have been holding out. But most men who have their shit figured out and are worth locking down are not going to beat you up about your 20′s. You may have to compete with a lot of younger women, but we’ve had to compete with a lot of older men pretty much the whole way up.

    There are all kinds of reasons people don’t find each other, but its also easy to say it is men’s inability to recognize greatness as opposed to perhaps other things, other choices. I’ve got a sister who lived that very path and until the day she gave up looking it was always about the men and what they failed to do/see/accept/etc….

  • Oz

    JP, “It’s basically all German descent with some Polish.”

    Poles and Punjabis are dating and marrying in the UK at ever escalating rates right now. Maybe I need to get me some polish, uh, er, vegan mock sausage? Hee hee.

  • Just1Z

    97% white English where Oi be livin’ Boi

    How’s that for non-diverse?

    Given the recent weather, I suspect that potential re-locating grockles are scared of drowning, or freezing, or freezing and drowning…or pernicious mildew in the summer week(s)

  • JP

    One of my roommates in law school described me as a “Mormon who drinks alcohol and coffee.”

    At the time, I’m pretty sure that I overall was more morally judgmental and more conservative than the Mormons, while simultaneously being much less religious.

    So, if you start with a conservative evangelical, remove the religious component, remove the love of Fox News, and remove the love of Rush Limbaugh, and add a vague sense of WASP privilege and superiority and respect for modern science, and respect for the BBC and NPR, you pretty much get where I was.

    Which, as it turns out, is a very strange place to be in America.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “Women should flee if they ever hear a guy use the word harem. It’s the equivalent of a guy hearing a girl reminisce about double penetration.”

    Hilarious. What kind of insecure guy would be scared off by the DP? Unless insecurity has to do with penis proximity, i.e. two cm apart vs two weeks apart? I’m guessing that still counts as 2 for the N, but the case could be made…

  • JP

    I live in the south now.

    I’m a carpetbagger.

  • JP

    “Give me a break! I think if you really do the shit you say you do IRL you wouldn’t even be on a site like this in the first place…”

    Why not? It’s a very commenty chat board.

  • Just1Z

    @PJ
    *screech of brakes*

    I am unusually well aware that the path of true love is seldom a smooth one, but I fear that you have identified some major issues that are likely to put a dint in our burgeoning relationship…c’est l’amour, I guess.

    Getting over this one is going to be easier than the last one thankfully.

    At least I got a smile out of of you.

    P.s. one of my previous avatars was me in a rubber suit at fifty feet (down) how quickly the memories fade (for some!) They clearly lied about the love never dying

  • J

    drink deep of the Chalice

    That is so lovely I’m going to needlepoint it, frame and put it above my bed as inspiration to DH.

  • J

    Poles and Punjabis are dating and marrying in the UK at ever escalating rates right now.

    Any particular reason why? Sharing the same immigrant neighborhoods?

  • Mike C

    I think it’s only about 1. The psycho bitches that do so well are anything but nurturing or sweet. They’re entitled drama queens with daddy issues.

    I have known some guys who constantly claim they don’t like drama, and select for it again and again. I think some men are just drawn to “bad girls.”

    Perhaps. Couple of thoughts.

    Arguably, “hotness” trumps all including the personality traits I listed…especially if we are talking shorter-term relationship or one definitely not headed for marriage. That is why hot “psycho bitches” can land guys. Not being female, I obviously can’t quantify the difference but I have paid attention to the comments especially some of the recent discussion on sexual attraction. I think few women can really grok JUST HOW VISUALLY ORIENTED we are and how much that is literally the direct trigger to instantaneous and incredibly strong sexual desire. When you start talking 8s, 9s, or even a 10 with awesome long hair, awesome skin, beautiful face, incredible body….that woman is literally intoxicating. I don’t think you women get that because in the presence of a gorgeous man you apparently still need “other stuff” to really get it going and if his personality sucks then it immediately negates his appearance. Not so with men. The bitchiest, craziest 9 is STILL a 9 and we are for the most part still just as sexually drawn to her. That in a nutshell explains why a very physically attractive woman with no other positive qualities will still have a ton of male attention. And of course, there might be some dysfunctional guys with issues who are drawn to some of the craziness but they are a minority. It is the looks. It is all about the looks.

    Still, my larger point is when confronted with the beautiful woman with an entire host of positive traits, the N issue will fade into the background for most men. They will find a way to tuck it into the recesses of their mind, and leave it that locked box in the mental closet. As a side point, in my experience really high N women (perhaps 20 to 30+) generally have some negative personality traits. Whatever you want to call it, by whatever process it happens, I get the sense that all those different c*cks start to add up to some type of damage to the psyche that manifest in bitterness, cynicism, being jaded, etc. At the same time, I have no doubt that there are some unrestricted women who are highly sexual, perhaps more male-brained with more male sex drives that can have some higher numbers without any sort of psyche damage.

    Long ago, you had the post based on my feedback, and I believe I am still right in that N isn’t the major issue here, but takes a backseat to the lying and price discrimination issue. Those are both greater insults to the male psyche than having to tackle the actual N head on and deal with. I think the other related issue is the guy knowing the woman feels powerful authentic sexual desire for him. See Ted’s comments. See Tasmin’s comment referencing the “settle down” guy. No guy wants to be the husband of the woman with a N=20 where he dated her for 4 months to have sex with her while many of the other 19 were getting it on date 2 or date 3 simply because they were “more sexually attractive” but she wasn’t capable of landing them for commitment but can with him.

    The simple fact of the matter is if highly restricted women simply stick to dating restricted men like INTJ or Cooper, than the dilemma of when exactly to “give it up” completely disappears. I think the issue of when exactly a woman should have sex doesn’t need to be as complicated or problematic as it is being made out to be if she simply stays away from entertaining the advances or interest of men she really shouldn’t be associating with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the issue of when exactly a woman should have sex doesn’t need to be as complicated or problematic as it is being made out to be if she simply stays away from entertaining the advances or interest of men she really shouldn’t be associating with.

      The problem is that people don’t wear the restricted label for all to see. A restricted female 9 is going to constantly get approached by male 9s and that means a lot of cads, unfortunately. Players at best. And those players know very well they’re dealing with a girl who’s probably not going to put out right away so they run false nice guy game. They court her for weeks on end, introduce her to the family even, while getting ONSs from slutty 6s and 7s on the side.

      The commenter Anne recently shared how this had happened to her – the guy duped her for a really long period of time, including international trips and serious relationship behavior.

      9s should be associating with 9s. But that’s a dangerous state of affairs in this SMP, from a female POV. It holds true at all levels of SMV – a woman’s natural assortative match has the option of easy sex with a less attractive woman.

  • Cooper

    Great post, Mike

  • OffTheCuff

    Kp: “I discovered through some internet searching that my bf of 10 months has a child (fb pics never never die). Am now being told by bf that the child is not a part of our relationship and that I have to leave it as that”

    Sue: “OMG, what an ass. His response is worse than the fact that he has a kid – which, after all, could happen to anyone. Dumping him is absolutely the right move, and you have every reason to respect yourself, and none to respect him!”

    If its OK to hide or lie about your N because “the past is the past” and it’s none of your business as so many women have insisted, then it’s also OK to do the same about kids. Either our past counts or it doesn’t.

    Which is why I believe couples should know their respective histories. But that’s just me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If its OK to hide or lie about your N because “the past is the past” and it’s none of your business as so many women have insisted, then it’s also OK to do the same about kids. Either our past counts or it doesn’t.

      Apples and oranges. His having the kid was not a mark of poor character. His not owning the kid is. That’s a far more serious moral failure than having a sexual history. The lying is a separate issue, and no one here has defended lying.

  • JP

    “If its OK to hide or lie about your N because “the past is the past” and it’s none of your business as so many women have insisted, then it’s also OK to do the same about kids. Either our past counts or it doesn’t.”

    This is why automarriage is so critically important.

    We need to keep these baby daddies glued to their baby mama’s.

    Also, my Baby Daddy Facebook App will help.

    “Know Your Mate” – It will track intoxications, sexual relations, drug use, and babies.

    Thanks to me, you will never be able to escape your past again!

  • Cooper

    “It’s a very commenty chat board”

    Mhmm.

    Off-topic: a few days ago it dawned on me, I’m not sure if there are any (perhaps major) dating services that have, to my knowledge, any sort of forum, or chat-room.
    I was kinda shocked when I thought about it. Doesn’t anyone think that the major services (POF, OKC, match, ect) could greatly benefit from a common chat-room, and forum of discussion.
    (Maybe these exist, Idk)

  • Iggles

    @ Ana:

    Given how you’ve talked about your past exploits with various so-called beautiful men I doubt you’re N < 2.

    My guess is that she only counts PinV so yeah under that criteria her number is low. But she has been single for as long as she has been posted so something else is going on that all those beautiful men are not committing to her…I wonder what can that be?

    Good point, Ana!

    @ Ion:

    Remember her comments to Sassy assuming she drank colt 40s or whatever, and now she’s acting as if she’s going to cry because we assumed she had a high N, and don’t know if she is Hindu or Shiite? Plus didn’t she say that she prefers black guys, and loved rubbing her hands through her ex-boyfriends dredlocks? Are there lots of black guys with dreads in south east Asia? I also remember us discussing the men in NYC

    Yep. All her past comments placed her in the High N camp. *shrug*

    Iggles,

    I’m not sure if it’s even worth it to argue with her anymore. It seems like people have been debating with her much longer than I have, and it’s a lost cause.

    True dat..

  • Lokland

    @Cooper

    “Your not serious, right?”

    Of course not.
    I have a splitting migraine and I’m in a pissy mood.

    My point is that every time this topic comes up the same people do exactly the same things.

    Which of course in the end amount to some women (who are typically) the most vocal deriding men who choose low N women (typically because they are insecure (the men) and/or its not a guarantee against cheating or occasionally that she (the women) is actually not aware enough to be satisfied with the relationship and is guaranteed to venture outwards to find out).

    The obvious conclusion (assuming they are correct) is then that low N women must in some way be inferior to those who are not.

    Which is of course a piss off, if you are you know, one of those guys who actually married/chose low N women. As of course its an insult to both the man in question (whose masculinity is questioned for having and sticking to preferences) and more importantly his wife (whose character is being impugned because god forbid, she knew how to work a button, or actually not how).

    So of course, though the attempt it to prevent those who have not yet chosen from skipping over the sluts, there is also that wonderful side effect of insulting 1/2 of the people who are married (if we assume N=2 is considered low, which covers 45% of married individuals).

    So if we assume they are correct the obvious conclusion is that a man who marries a low N women should be ashamed of his horrid choice. (Sarcasm).

  • lovelost

    @susan
    There are good reasons for men to rise up against the men who are hogging all the sex.

    isn’t that called beta-cock block? or the other way of phrasing it which i had read on Manosphere,

    “don’t wish it was easier, wish you’re better’.

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    Guys at 10-15 are players??

    No. Being a player is a mindset, it’s a specific goal. It entails getting with as many women as you can without committing to any of them. Players usually strongly identify with the label and consider it a huge compliment to have that reputation.

    The guys I’m describing would strongly prefer a gf, but they live in the city, go out with their guy friends, and get lucky a few times a year. Usually, the women are the aggressors. A guy can easily get to 20 partners by age 25 if he has four hookups a year.

  • JP

    “Guys at 10-15 are players??”

    Well, if N=1 is the ideal…

  • JP

    “Guys at 10-15 are players??”

    I was thinking more of habit the ONS / STRs, things like having sex with people you just met or people you know that you’re not going to marry.

    Sex for fun. Getting drunk at a bar and having random sex. Getting drunk at a party and having random sex. That sort of thing.

    If you are out “having fun” and that “fun” involves sex or you are “sowing your wild oats”, you’re a player.

  • Ted D

    “Guys at 10-15 are going to be turned off by N < 3 because they are not restricted.

    They are players."

    Consigned. Sorry but if you make it to double digits before your 30's you are at the very least unrestricted, and at most an OK player.

    I can't remember the actual number, but I'm damn sure the average partner count for men was said to be in the ingle digits, right? So 15 is a fair way above average. I'm OK with calling that unrestricted, regardless of whether or not these guys want relationships. Wanting a relationship does NOT make a person sexually restricted.

    JP – what side of the state are you from?

    I know the 'Burgh isn't very diverse, but you wouldn't know it from my part of town. Or the Hill District. Or Aliquippa (although that and Ambridge may not be considered part of the city limits…) most of the city is rather vanilla, but there are pockets of extreme diversity around if you know where to look.

  • JP

    I’m from the middle part far away from the cities and near the cows.

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    Great, so at 29 or 30, I’m a man-whore.

    But I married a virgin, so I don’t think that blanket assumption about turnoffs is going to necessarily hold.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t know how to get into my story without looking like either a chump or a jackass, so I’ll just let the chips fall where they may.

    “Working past” a girl’s issues is a little beyond “working past” a smaller issue, like her forgetting to call once in a while. You are talking about something fundamental that reaches deep into a guy’s soul and his confidence and his foundation as a person.

    Susan says thinking about her husband mindfucking other women makes her want to crawl into a bed for the rest of the day. Slut angst makes you want to obliterate yourself as a person for being so low value, and obliterate every thought anyone ever had of you, so no one can remember how pathetic you were.

    It is very, very, very bad. There were times I wanted to call up my SO and just dump her, no questions asked, nothing more than “yea, ur a slut and I dont want u.”

    Yeah, a guy can get through this. If he isn’t stressed at work and then projects his stress on the girl. If the girl is very attractive and very sweet, and shows that affection daily (hourly?). If she has 80%+ girl game. If she is giving him sex regularly. If he is getting enough sleep and water. If he feels good about HIMSELF. If he doesn’t any other available options at the moment.

    If if if if if.

    I knew exactly what I was getting into. I started out as a fling with this girl, so I figured she had a few ONS before meeting me. No biggie, she was just a fling.

    During that initial infatuation phase, her faults didn’t mean a lot, as long as those goooooooooood feelings were coming in. But after she moved away and we shifted to a long-distance relationship, well, those gooooood feelings weren’t there anymore, and I was close to breaking up with her.

    She made a grand display of affection that kept me around. And actually made the next few months good. Great, actually. Happiest in my life. Enough that I thought “hey, maybe she’s marriage material…”

    So I decided to tackle this whole slut angst issue again. See if I could really “move past” it, right?

    I told her my fear. That she had dated a few guys that she didn’t really like, too nice, and that she REALLY liked jerks. Had flings with them. Didn’t think they had to commit. But now wanted to “settle down” with a “real guy” that was “nice.”

    What I got was a confirmation on almost all of that. Have you EVER had your worst fears confirmed about a person? Particularly someone you entrusted your heart to? Just think about that. Think about your best friend being a former Al Qaeda officer or something and explaining that this is all “in the past” after your father got killed in 9/11.

    Maybe I’m being a little extreme, but you cannot understand it until you feel it.

    She admitted that she did date a whole bunch of “nice guys” who weren’t very attractive, because, let’s be honest, nice guys usually aren’t attractive. She admitted she did have some sexual relations with some of those and did her best not to think of it because they disgusted her so badly.

    She admitted that occasionally she was stressed or lonely or wanted to be a rebel or whatever and had a few flings. She quoted me number: I multiply that by 3 in my head.

    And where did I fit in with this picture?

    Well, she liked me. We had a fling, right? But after college she moved back home. And she felt like shit. She didn’t like ANY of her flings, she didn’t like ANY of her boyfriends, except for one at 17 (that she cheated on). Now her college life had concluded, which was an “aberration,” and she realized she was back in the “real world,” which for her was parents that bordered on fundamentalist. She felt like a used slut every day.

    When she ran across me, she really, really did want to try to hold off on something. Some scrap. Something so she could feel special. And her parents had something special, right? Maybe she should try to be like them. When I explained to her how badly she made ME feel, she started crying: wasn’t her intention.

    We didn’t wait as long as she wanted to: she was wrong, she admitted, and the sex was important in keeping that emotional connection. And she can’t change the past.

    Wait, that whole explanation.

    I didn’t hear any of that.

    I heard “I like jerks” after years of being told “you are too nice.” I heard “I have a wild side and a mature side and with you I wanted to try to be more mature.”

    Boom. Red-flags galore. Emotional connection severed. Girl instantly moved off of marriage ladder and into “it’s okay to date you for right now” ladder.

    I stopped investing and amped up the sexy-times to infinity. I was concerned about getting what I wanted and letting emotional intimacy build back up, if it could be. I straight-out told her that she was a kind of a girl I didn’t really trust, might never be able to trust, and she would have to work hard to earn it.

    I don’t lie, and I’m not a cad. She knew what I was doing. She gave it a shot anyways, and I am not surprised: I am the first guy she actually DID like since her high school boyfriend.

    I absolutely told her that I would be glad to wait for a virgin girl or a low N girl and would not tolerate waiting much longer for her than I already did. It would have been an insult to me. Actually, what I didn’t tell her is that if she had said “no” to sex when I asked, she would have been written off, immediately, with no chance of redemption.

    Again, I don’t lie, and I do my best not to pull punches.

    She chose to go into this, eyes wide open. And my eyes were open too.

    After a few weeks, she fucked up something, and I dismissed her without a second thought. And I scrubbed her from my life entirely.

    I immediately went outside and started flirting with women. I didn’t go for number closes, I just wanted to get used to it. 100 approaches, etc, I had a lot of work to catch up on.

    She emailed me something again, a bunch of job applications, saying she wanted to be friends at least. I said, if you really, really want to do right by yourself, why not actually be honest, and stop trying to guard your heart?

    She responded with a very heartfelt letter. I showed it to my friend. He shook his head, and just said “dude, you have to get back together.” My favorite line, if I may reproduce it:

    “I have never fallen this hard for someone. You
    made my life perfect and put stars in my eyes every day. ”

    So, you know? I decided to give it another shot. Same terms as before. She would have to work hard to earn my affection. This time around, I would be more communicative and let her know that a problem was there, and let her know concretely and concisely how to fix it.

    It’s not so much that she doesn’t listen…more like…it’s hard to explain issues to someone else. They don’t see things how you do. You need to make it as simple as possible and try to relate it to their perspective.

    Something like that.

    Those were the terms.

    The reason I’m with her, again, is because she worked HARD to earn my affection. She cancelled family events to spend time with me. She went on my family vacations and took great care of my baby niece. She played nice with my friends, made plans around my interests, made it a point to listen to what I was saying and fix issues as they occurred as soon as they occurred.

    When I got a new job, she sent me chocolates. When I told her I was feeling lonely, she sent me a teddy bear with a handwritten note from the teddy bear. Granted, I’m a dude and I don’t dig teddys, but it was HER teddy, her only stuffed animal, and that meant something to me. When I told her we needed to ramp up the sexiness, she sent a bunch of very…”nice” pictures ;)

    Furthermore, I really do believe her when she says she loves me more than any other guy in the world. It’s not just what she does consciously, it’s the little things of how she reacts. She’s okay if I set frame and even likes it. She likes my leadership, not just on little things but on big things like where we might live or what cars we should drive. She wants my input on big decisions and purchases for her, she works HARD to clean up and look nice.

    She doesn’t challenge me. She is NEVER mean to me. She brightens up whenever she sees me and likes to share her days and her ups and downs and wants to hear about my life, to the exclusion of other people, if necessary. If I say I want to talk to her, phone or skype, she always answers, ALWAYS.

    My goals quickly become her goals. To some extent, she mirrors my own values, and she likes to talk about them and learn how I think. One of the things I find funny, and like to blow out of proportion, is how our weights and exercise level match over time with short lags. As in, if I am working out and losing weight, she’s following a week later, and vice versa.

    Little amusing, doesn’t mean much, but I am definitely comfortable where I sit right now.

    Note: She’s not a fiance yet, and for damn good reason. She has a mercenary past. And as much as I like her, I’m not a total dumbass, and I am not going to commit beyond what I feel comfortable committing to.

    That being said, a shady past does not necessarily make you instantly-DQ’d. Susan has a shady past. I quite like her. That’s why I comment here.

    Now, to sum up this all up.

    Yes, N matters.
    Yes, some of us have chosen to look past N.
    I cannot speak for others, but for me, it was a lot of work.
    I cannot speak for others, but for my SO, she earned her audition and the affection she’s getting.

    The only one who ever earned more was the one who carried me for 9 months and changed my diapers.

  • George

    @ tasmin #695: +1

    The more I read here the more I’m finding I must not be a stereotypical man. I guess I always knew that to an extent.

    Despite the fact that I am frustrated and haven’t had sex since around September 2011, I have declined what likely would have led to sex more than once recently. One of the times because I perceived the girl to be dun…dun…duuuuuuunnnnn…………wait for it. Slutty. I just didn’t want to be involved with her. She would objectively be viewed as attractive. Just like a girl, even if I’m going to have something casual I want it to be with someone who will respect me, not a girl who considers me the best option at closing time.

    High N may or may not be a deal breaker for me, it would be circumstance dependent, but all else being equal, given the choice, I would go for a lower N. I would say 4 or 5 is probably an optimum number. Enough to have let go sexually some, not be a stick in the mud, but not enough to have to worry about either. And yes I agree men take high N because low N has gone the way of the unicorn. The choice seemingly isn’t high N or low N, it’s high N or nothing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I would say 4 or 5 is probably an optimum number. Enough to have let go sexually some, not be a stick in the mud, but not enough to have to worry about either.

      Interesting. For some men, a woman’s having had some sexual experience is evidence that she is capable of passion and has a sex drive. Also perhaps that she has successfully navigated a relationship or two.

  • JP

    “Great, so at 29 or 30, I’m a man-whore.

    But I married a virgin, so I don’t think that blanket assumption about turnoffs is going to necessarily hold.”

    I’ve never really thought about it as a turnoff, so I really have no idea.

    But then, I was used to always thinking about it as a purely moral issue, meaning that I threw it into the same category as “lying”,”theft”, “pornography”, and “drug use”.

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    Say “Hi!” to Berkeley for me!

    Just said “Hi” to your old flame – Cal. :D

  • JuTR

    Jeez, INTJ, great retelling of a serious life experience. I felt a lot of empathy for you, and for her. I think we’re all a little lost in the current SMP and prone to making decisions that are later regarded with regret. It is hard to encapsulate reality with numbers, to encode millions of sensations and experiences into simple words, so we’re all a little lost in understanding why choices are made. I appreciate your decisions and your reasoning, and for what it is worth, I agree with your choices.

    Best of luck man, you have a strong sense of self realization, and I know you’re going to do well.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Off topic of sluts/slut shaming but valuable nonetheless.

    ADBG just answered in pictures what a relationship should be.

    1. Man is the prize. In this day and age, men are propagandized to view women as the prize. Because of hypergamy and female reproduction, it’s up to her to make sure the one man she mates with is the ‘catch’.

    2.Women want to fight to earn a man’s love. Given love, supplicating beta doormat love is valueless. ADBG made her work for it.

    3. This is classic escalation (albeit under strange circumstances) where she is ramping up the quality traits beyond just being a vagina and adding value to his life, she’s qualifying to him. He responds by actually developing real feelings of love for her to the point where her N is becoming less relevant.

    Men are told that they are supposed to go out of their way to show a woman love and adoration as a way to win fair maiden’s heart. This is ass backwards and the wrong frame. You’re supposed to be yourself, show her what you’re capable of in life (and with game, tease up what you’re capable of elsewhere so her mind is set ablaze) and then make her work her ass off being “feminine” in order to generate within the man feelings of ACTUAL love towards the woman which he displays towards her. The loop continues endlessly.. and seemingly effortlessly as one action supports and validates the previous action spurring another action and so on.

    Anyone seen Inception?

    “Now, In a dream, our mind continuously does this: we create and perceive our world simultaneously. Our mind does this so well we don’t even know it is happening.” – Cobb

    Great relationships are like dreams. Her femininity (spending time with him, planning around him, his interests, cooking for him, sending him a teddy bear, not challenging him, brightens his day) encourages both his masculinity (which she is attracted to) and creates deep, true feelings for her in his heart, thus she has EARNED it, making it have so much value when he does show her (and i’m sure he is showing her in the manner that she desires it from him)

    Rinse repeat, the circle continues effortlessly. It’s only when one of them deliberately puts a stop to their end of the reciprocal value exchange that the circle fails to complete and as they say .. “the dream collapses”.

    Men want respect/admiration/submission(noncombative personality)/caring/intimacy from women.. feminine women.

    Women want emotional availability, security, support, masculine frame & attitude, genuine LOVE which lead to intimacy from the alpha of their eye.

    Men need to be told to stop trying to win love by showing love.. not until the woman has earned it.

    Ok.. i’m done.. you can carry on talking about sluts and N’s now.

  • Ted D

    ADBG – “Yes, N matters.
    Yes, some of us have chosen to look past N.
    I cannot speak for others, but for me, it was a lot of work.
    I cannot speak for others, but for my SO, she earned her audition and the affection she’s getting.”

    That pretty much sums up my story man. Different details, but your story and mine pretty much follow the exact same path in terms of the process and effort involved.

    I don’t know if it matters to you, but I get it. It takes far more courage than most people can imagine. Which is why it cracks me up when the “insecure” card gets pulled. Insecure guys wouldn’t be able to handle it, because the entire process is a test of your will and fortitude, and you can’t have either from a place of insecurity.

  • JP

    @ADBG:

    “I don’t know how to get into my story without looking like either a chump or a jackass, so I’ll just let the chips fall where they may.”

    I don’t see anything wrong with how you are handling things here.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Oh and that’s why the whole Sex for Commitment thing doesn’t work.

    Sex is the end goal for BOTH sexes when the circle detailed above is working smoothly. She earns commitment not by spreading her legs, but by qualifying to him, as he must earn her attraction and respect by qualifying to her through masculine traits. (tho women are much more picky with what traits they consider attractive, the scripting stays the same)

    Intimacy and sex are the result of a nice wet dream ;)

    Whatever you do, don’t end up in limbo.

  • Ted D

    M3 – spot on!

    I am the prize. And she had to work for it. But I’ll tell you, if God forbid I end up single again, the next one will work twice as hard. I’m far more comfortable in my own skin today than ever before in my life. I know I can go it alone if I must, so my requirements have gone up. ;-)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    No, I’m thinking of the debate about what constitutes an SMP winner. He mentioned there’s one guy who gets a lot of ONSs, but he is not smart and not at all ambitious, he’s kind of a slacker. Zach said the guys have zero respect for him and do not consider him an alpha or winner of any kind. Maybe Zach will show up and clarify.

    Yup. According to Zach, unambitious slackers are SMP losers, whereas manwhores like him are SMP winners.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      According to Zach, unambitious slackers are SMP losers, whereas manwhores like him are SMP winners.

      No, they’re both manwhores (though as you say Zach is reformed). But Zach is smart, ambitious and successful, while the other guy is not. IOW, Zach has the respect of other males as a result of his status. The slacker does not.

      FTR, I give Zach a lot of credit for being objective about the effects of casual sex on his mental state, and his decision to lay off. How many sexually successful men do that at 25? 1%?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    And i don’t mean “I am the prize” in some chauvinist way.. i’m talking about the realities we see.

    Women poach, women steal, intrasexual competition ring a bell? Do i have to bring up the science of Heartiste?

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/women-prefer-taken-men/

    We see how when a man twists end over end and backwards all over himself trying to show love to “win” a woman’s heart, 9 times out of 10 it backfires somewhere down the road, because treating her like a prize is tantamount to pedestalizing supplicating behavior women despise!

    Recognition of a woman’s desirability and worth are for sure something she wants… but only from a man who could have had anyone but chose her. That’s what makes him ‘the prize’.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    We were talking specifically about shaming cads, not guys with high N. And he’s not shaming them for the sake of women, he’s shaming them because they are not honorable or respectable men. He is unwilling to respect a man just for getting his dick wet, that’s the point.

    They aren’t cads unless they lie to the girls they bed.

    Also, Zach has been avoiding casual sex and turning down offers, making him a man who has a lot of options, but doesn’t choose to exercise them. It doesn’t get any higher value than that.

    Yup. Of course, his getting those offers is not completely unconnected with his past history of preselection. He’s a reformed manwhore.

  • INTJ

    Also, I’d like to point out that Zach has no problem with lying to women to get his friends (cad or non-cad) laid. Even if his friend is Ted Bundy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, I’d like to point out that Zach has no problem with lying to women to get his friends (cad or non-cad) laid. Even if his friend is Ted Bundy.

      What? I must have missed that anecdote. Refresh my memory?

    • <