Last week, new reader Nancy stumbled onto an old post I wrote about one risk of female promiscuity that no one likes to talk about. It led her to share a story that is painful to read, but I offer it here as a public service announcement.
Millennial women, be aware. Feminism did not rid society of the sexual double standard. Men remain loath to commit to women with considerable previous sexual experience. Why? Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child, which is obviously not in his best interest. He sees your past as a valid predictor of your future behavior.
The other thing you should be aware of is that the truth will out. Hiding your past for a lifetime is extremely difficult logistically, but it is also very burdensome psychologically to keep that secret.
From Nancy:
Women need the raw and honest truth.
Women who plan on finding ‘the one’ and getting married one day please, please, PLEASE listen to what these men have to say. I wish more than ANYTHING that I had this valuable insight into how men think and feel about sex, and promiscuous women when I was a teenager. If I have a daughter I will be educating her on this valubale life lesson. I feel like now, at the age of 29, I’m only just learning about men. My eyes have finally been opened. How could I have been so blinded before???
I’m so incredibly sad. I’m living a life full of regret. I am now married to the most wonderful man – he is every woman’s dream:
First impressions: handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male, excellent communicator.
Lasting impressions: loving, caring, kind, the provider, amazing lover.
Women throw themselves at him.. And he chose to be with me.
Unfortunately I didn’t save myself for him. I was promiscuous when I was single and my sexual past is putting a HUGE strain on our relationship. It is the ONLY thing we fight about. He loves me and cares for me, but he doesn’t respect me. I hope and pray that we can get through this. Your past DOES matter and it will always come back to haunt you.
When my husband and I first started dating he told me that he had issues with promiscuous women, and he asked me what I was like when I was single. I didn’t reveal to him my exact number, I simply said, “I haven’t slept with many guys”. Amongst my circle of friends it was considered a below average number, but on a global scale I now realise it’s a very high number.
At the time he was satisfied with my answer.. But 6 months later the topic came up again. He wanted an exact number. I did what many women do, and I lied. I told him 10 less than the actual number. That number already doubled his acceptable quota, and he was really disgusted with me. However, he stayed with me.
Another 6 months later I finally came clean and confessed my real number. He was SO close to just ending it with me right then and there. Not only was I a slut, but I was a liar, which was even worse. Breaking trust in a relationship is the WORST thing you can ever do. He was so angry with me for ‘pulling the wool over his eyes’..for trying to make myself appear better than I really was. I just didn’t want him to judge me for my past. I wanted him to get to know me as a person first, and love and accept me for who I am today. He says that what I did wasn’t fair because he fell in love with me…but he hates my past. There’s no way in hell he would’ve got involved with me if he’d known how many people I’d slept with.
Over one year later we’re still together and recently got married. He now knows everything about me. My past is shamful and embarrassing, but it feels really good to be open and honest with him. There are no more secrets. He is doing his best to love and accept me for who I am. He knows that I am a good person, and a loving wife with a lot to offer. He just wishes I made better choices in my past. Some days are really hard and he can’t stop thinking about the things that I’ve done. I feel badly and think that he could’ve had any girl in the world – an innocent girl – but instead he’s stuck with me. Damaged goods.
Nancy then offers advice on how women can keep their number low:
Make him work for it – Play hard to get. Let him wine and dine you. Let him chase you. Be his prize. Never be easy. Never give in. Go on many dates. Get to know him before you give yourself to him. Don’t be naive and sleep in his bed (or he in yours) and think you’ll ‘just cuddle’. He will keep trying and trying until you give in and he has his way with you. Then it’s all over red rover. You blew it!
I won’t endorse the advice exactly as written, because it sets expectations too high for male investment early on in a feminist era. However, I will say that Nancy has the right idea – the most important thing women can do is aggressively filter out men who want no-strings sex. David Buss’ seminal book The Evolution of Desire explains the importance this strategy:
The key problem women have always had to face is selecting a man who would be willing to commit to a long-term relationship. A woman who mated with a reliable man who was more likely to commit to her was more likely to have children that survived and thrived. A mate who was flighty, impulsive, and philandering meant a woman had to raise her children alone, without benefit of the resources, protection and aid that another man might have offered. So, over thousands of generations, a preference for men who showed signs of being willing and able to commit evolved in women.
The great initial parental investment of women makes them a valuable but limited resource. Reproductive resources cannot be allocated indiscriminately or dispensed to many men. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates. If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost. But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years. We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.
…Evolution has favored women who prefer men who possess attributes that confer benefits and who dislike men who possess attributes that impose costs.
…Because sex is one of the most valuable reproductive resources women can offer, they have evolved psychological mechanisms that cause them to resist giving it away indiscriminately. Requiring love, sincerity and kindness is a way of securing a commitment of resources commensurate with the value of the resource that women give up to men.
Our culture penalizes women who hold out and require commitment before they have sex. It’s far from easy. Unfortunately, you have only two choices:
Strategy A: Hold out.
Strategy B: Give in.
Nancy is a tragic example of Strategy B. She has generously shared her story as a witness to the fallout.
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While I appreciate that Nancy wants to give out this warning I can’t help but note, that doing whatever she wanted when she was young and then lying about it to her SO worked for her, it’s not really a good message. If you can lie just long enough for him to invest you’ll be good. I also disagree with the make him work for it. I am a first time poster but I have been reading so I know this comes up a lot but when I meet a girl I assume she’s had a lot of partners, I also assume that with those partners she didn’t make them invest if she liked them enough or was saying yolo or whatever, so I’m not really going to put a lot of work into someone who isn’t going to do the same for me or it’s like, why are they good enough to not have to invest but not me? It’s really a statement the value a woman is putting on you when she expects an investment from you but not others.
I must obviously raise the obvious feminist screed that would be raised after reading this heartening post.
“That woman should have walked away from such an insecure and scared little boy of a woman who obviously embraced her sexuality. She’d be better off without him..”
.. and now the feminists are off to go feed their 49 cats.
I don’t think her problem was that she used to be promiscuous as much as it is the fact that she lied about it, and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself. She could have been honest from the beginning and he either could have accepted it and continued their relationship or not and moved on.
Yes, her ‘number’ is an issue here, but the lies make it that much worse. This has little to do with male/female relationships, and more to do with honesty.
The past is the past, it’s done, and I do believe people can grow and change. But the lies are a huge red flag. Can we honestly take her story at face value when she admits to such a betrayal?
@Ashley:
“She could have been honest from the beginning and he either could have accepted it and continued their relationship or not and moved on.”
She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.
ps. i have a few posts that i could link to regarding female promiscuity that could help.. but i dare say some of your readership might be too gentile or fragile for it
And George is right. This woman got lucky that she held the lie out long enough and that this guys inner beta couldn’t do what someone with options would have done in a second by nexting her for such a lie. (or perhaps the legal entanglement of divorce is just too much for him to endure compared to knowing he’s less special than the 43 other men she let inside her.. take your pick)
Here, from a neutral, non crass, male perspective. Heed it well.
http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/42_dating_advice.html
“doing whatever she wanted when she was young and then lying about it to her SO worked for her, it’s not really a good message”
Nah… I don’t think so.
I assume she’s still reasonable good looking (well, guy is described like he has options) and that will work for her for next few years.
I got my share of sluts and I feel strange disgust when I am fucking a well-used girl. If chick is pretty, my arousal overpowers disgust, but it’s always temporary. Next day I am wondering who else have been putting my dick into that. Imagine that day for day for few years.
IMHO, she should just shut up and never give her number.
Pretty girls just have greater amount of leeway, but it ends sooner or later (later sooner). I would like to see if they are still together in 3-5 years…
Ashley perfectly exemplifies female thinking when she puts “his woman” in quotes.
You want him to buy in whole hog, but NOT to think of anything resembling possessiveness.
That’s beyond stupid.
I agree a high number by itself is an issue (I don’t believe her # is actually given.) Lying about is a second issue stacked on top of that.
@ JP
“She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.”
Catastrophic TO HER and her desire for a relationship with HIM.
No one is entitled to a relationship. Lying to get one like this is like lying to a woman about wanting to marry her just to pump n dump her.
While I don’t doubt her husband displays most of the qualities she said…he is certainly not alpha.
Committing to a known slut and a liar is what a beta does. And let’s face it I still believe a woman knows her true value by the guy she marries.
i find the content of comments #2 and #3 to be particularly amusing in the order they are presented.
*big shit eating grin*
@George
I don’t think it did work for her, that’s the takeaway message here. Her husband is still extremely bothered by her history, and this is affecting their relationship and making them both miserable. I think her message is that there is no escaping the consequences.
This is why slut shaming would be useful when done by other women. The default male assumption is now that all women are sluts. That puts more restricted women in a no win situation. They have to “prove” their lack of sexual experience. How does one do that?
I get the price discrimination problem, but again, this is not an issue with women who have not been promiscuous. How can a woman convince a man she is not holding him to different standards than the men in her past?
@Ashley
That’s not accurate. He did not have a requirement that he be her first lover – he had a quota in mind.
Furthermore, I laid out in the post precisely why it is not insecurity. It has nothing to do with the male ego, and everything to do with the evolved male instinct to avoid being cuckolded.
Finally, had she been honest from the beginning she obviously would have wound up throwing back this big fish. Women lie precisely because they understand very well that most men will move on.
M3, keep on eating that shit lol.
Jk. Kind of.
Sounds like the guy married her AFTER she had lied and then come clean. So, really, while I sympathize, he has as it were made his bed and must now lie in it.
I had this happen to me, not with the first girl I dated but with the first one I dated for a long time. In her case, the true number was still very low and the time lapse between the lie and voluntarily coming clean was very short, days or weeks (I can’t remember the details). It was a horrible scene when it happened but I got over it rather quickly. Basically, the facts that the number was low, that I didn’t have to hear the truth from someone else but she told me without being caught, and that she did so quickly all counted in her favor.
What girls need to understand is that most guys will TOLERATE a low number because that’s just the way the world is today. But no guy says, “Gee, that virgin over there, nah, for an LTR she needs an N of at least 3.” Players may not like virgins but guys looking for a mate merely tolerate a past, they don’t value it for its own sake or think it’s some value-added to her personality.
And once you get above a certain point, toleration evaporates. Nancy lied her number down by 10, from what to what, we don’t know. But if 10 was the delta, the N had to be huge, I’m guessing. 10 is a total deal breaker for me in any case. Not that this is relevant to my actual life but as she noted, it’s good for girls to know what guys actually think.
@M3
Great article. “one for each of my birthdays” LOL
“No one is entitled to a relationship.”
Relationships stabilize emotions because of the nature of the bond.
It’s not a question of entitlement, it’s a question of a basic human need.
The question is whether the relationship is stable and whether she’s going to cheat going forward.
They have to “prove” their lack of sexual experience. How does one do that?
Attitude.
Don’t talk about sex…or all their “boyfriends”.
Be pleasant.
Dress modestly.
Avoid tattoos and piercings that are meant for attention.
Most guys have an intuition about who is a slut. Sluts give away who they are through their attitude.
@taterearl
OK, but in that case it’s not necessary to assume all women are sluts.
RE: insecurity, I don’t see the big deal here. I mean, so what if guys are insecure about a girl’s past? Maybe that insecurity is rational.
E.g., if a girl really did ride the carousel and bang a lot of hot alphas who got her super turned on, but who would not commit to her, it’s rational for a beta to worry that he won’t be able to satisfy her long term even if he offers commitment, resources and security.
In other words, I don’t think the only reason men worry about N is fear of cheating/cuckolding. Suppose a man could be assured that a former slut had truly reformed and really would never cheat on him. Which I think is the case of most UMC urban career girls. My guess is that these ladies who may have had a very wild time in their 20s, once they marry, by and large don’t cheat. But who wants to be the guy forever being compared (if only in her heart/mind) unfavorably to all her hook-ups, even if she doesn’t cheat on you?
Call that “insecure” if you want. Fine, I accept the label. It’s not irrational.
“OK, but in that case it’s not necessary to assume all women are sluts.”
No…but if she talks like a slut, looks like a slut, walks like a slut, then she a duck.
@ Ashley
“M3, keep on eating that shit lol. / Jk. Kind of.”
NOM NOM NOM
@ JP
“It’s not a question of entitlement, it’s a question of a basic human need.”
One could say the same thing about sex, and we ALL KNOW that no one is entitled to it, at least no GUY is.. as far as the NiceGuys of OKCupid Tumblr fiasco taught us…
Of course relationships are wonderful… but denying a person the information to make an informed choice as to whether this person wants a relationship with YOU because you’re no longer *proud* of having slept around like a champion race jockey…
A picture like this leaves me speechless.
http://whoism3.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hmm.jpg
“In other words, I don’t think the only reason men worry about N is fear of cheating/cuckolding.”
I think that Susan is saying that this is sub-consious revulsion that can’t be turned on or off.
“Here, from a neutral, non crass, male perspective. Heed it well.
http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/42_dating_advice.html”
I personally think this article is BS. I obviously do agree that women sleep around too much (in a nutshell argument) but the author suggests waiting three months. I’m not doing that no matter how much I like a girl. If I though she was marraige material in every other way and truly valued her deeply on every level I would walk away from waiting three months, and I don’t even have the options (due to my own issues surrounding women, largely concerning the kind of thing being discussed here, it’s actually how I found this website. It’s not a lack of desireability.) some guys do. I don’t have no options either but I wouldn’t wait that long.
I disagree about the categories. I absolutely would continue seeing a woman after ONS. I view it the same this website espouse that women do. It’s really a foot in the door. If she hasn’t had sex with quickly I’d actually be afraid of her being bored or not invested and leaving. I have sex quickly as a means to get her to stick around and give me a real chance instead of an instant DQ for some arbitrary reason.
I do have self control I’ve probably turned down more sex than I’ve had. I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly, but just to do it more discriminately, and not to go through a “sowing your wild oats” phase. Sow your wild oats while dating real guys who you are actually interested in LT dating, chances are you won’t marry the first guy you date, so you will get a reasonable amount of experience without becoming a slut. But along with goes investigating what you are looking for and discovering what you truly value instead of letting your hamster (I hope I used that right, I’m new to all this jargon) run the show. I know women will say if you sleep with him quickly he will assume your a slut. Maybe I’m the exception but I never assumed a woman was a slut b/c she slept with me quickly. I do assume it b/c of the culture and that’s all that’s presented and it’s what I see women I know doing, but not b/c she went to bed w/me quickly. I don’t know how that works but that’s how it is for me.
I’d say it’s rational for a woman to think twice about a man’s commitment if he’s in front of her on bended knee asking for her hand in marriage..
whilst using the same engagement ring he used to propose to the last 15 women he’s married/divorced.
But you’re #16 sweetheart.. and you’re going to be special, so much moreso than those other ladies…
Except where they got to enjoy his power, money and prestige early on, he’s now broke and destitute so you’ll need to take care of him and fix him a sammich or two to earn his commitment. Those other 15 girls meant nothin, now he’s looking to settle down, he’s tired of playing the games, he’s looking for someone REAL to build a life with ya know?
Take the ring.. husband him up.. what a catch! No commitment / fidelity warnings to see here.. move along
This woman sleeps around for years and then gets the handsome quality husband. As a man, this story disgusts me.
Who is this pathetic guy who married her? She admits to having way too many sexual partners by his standards, but he stays with her. She admits to him that she lied about her number, and then he still stays with her. And worst of all this guy marries her, even though he is disgusted with her high number of past sexual partners. Just a dumb guy. He should have dumped her when he first learned her number. Why does a man does this to himself? He must think he doesn’t deserve better.
@ Susan
It did work because they got married. The only reason it can even be an issue now is because her initial lie worked. He got invested and by the time the truth came he was in love. An issue now that they are married, but it would have been a non starter for him, so the message could be construed as “lie long enough to get him hooked, then use that leverage to deal with an issue that you know is a deal breaker for him” not the best strategy admittedly but it still had the desired outcome for her and less so for him, even if it wasn’t in the best possible way. Even though it is negative for them both I say better for her b/c in the end she got what she wanted, LTR, and he didn’t, woman with low N, even if it’s not perfect, the lie paid off for her.
@ George
“I do have self control I’ve probably turned down more sex than I’ve had.”
Then you are in the 10% of men club. Congratulations! This article and it’s details about what the other 90% of men feel do not apply to you. Carry on.
“I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly”
Leading lambs to the slaughter…
*shakes head*
Let’s not forget the demons from her past she’s airing out as well. Even if you have the heart of a saint…you can’t fight those demons she has. You already have your own to deal with plus you are sorely outnumbered.
Every woman has some baggage…but it’s better to marry a woman with a hobo sack full of baggage verses one who bought out a luggage store.
@ Steve…
That’s why I don’t think the guy is as alpha or high quality like this women states.
If he was able to get other women he would have NEXT her.
“If he was able to get other women he would have NEXT her.”
The women flinging themselves at you are generally not the ones you want to date.
At least, that’s been my experience.
” I honestly think the solution is for women to have sex quickly, but just to do it more discriminately, and not to go through a “sowing your wild oats” phase. ”
Being discriminate doesn’t change biology, being discriminate doesn’t change what she thinks of herself, being discriminate doesn’t change the demons that come.
I’ll rob a bank but as long as I don’t hurt anybody it’s okay for me to steal money.
Does not compute. The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.
“I’ll rob a bank but as long as I don’t hurt anybody it’s okay for me to steal money.”
That’s more a morality issue (greed) than a sexuality issue (innate drive).
I think the problem is that we’ve conflated morality and sexuality (in bad ways) which has not been good.
a) Oh Ashley, oh noes!! You’ve let yourself down there.
really?
shaming language? is that all you’ve got? dear, oh dear.
this has been done to death on this blog before (as well as what Susan wrote above) – most men don’t like the women that they wish to invest in having high N. They don’t care about the N of ONS / P&D.
Too bad that you don’t like it, that it is inconvenient – it is how most men feel about it.
Even whasisface, the sad old hippy, gave in and admitted that he had standards over the N he’d commit to. In his defence he took a bloody long time getting round to fessing up.
(b) he married her after that!!!!!?????
what a fecking idiot. Sooner, or later, he or she is going to have this issue eat them down to the core – then cue divorce. what an idiot.
@ Steve: “He must think he doesn’t deserve better.”
Or he doesn’t feel convinced there’s anything else out there, that’s how it seems from my perspective. Accept a woman with high N, or be alone forever.
@M3: Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.
I’ve been lurking on this site for several months and it’s kind of weird that this topic would bring me out of hiding.
It sounds like the guys here are exceptionally insecure about their sexual capabilities. Yes, some other guy may have outperformed you in some way at some time in the past. It’s kind of wimpy want to be the biggest fish in the pond by arranging to be the only fish that’s ever been there.
Personally, I’ve never once asked about my spouse’s sexual history (although I know there was some, maybe a lot. I’m sure some guy had a bigger penis, lasted longer, etc.). She wasn’t slutty when we were dating and she’s been absolutely devoted to me.
To continue, that is problem with women treating their sexuality like gold. The way hookup culture is if she wants me to chase and hold out for sex, I’m going to assume it’s something she’s only doing to me. Why would I chase when others don’t have to. Also as was discussed n the comments in the last article (I think) Me chasing sets up an imbalanced power dynamic from the word go. She is of higher status and it is my job to “get” her somehow.
But if 10 was the delta, the N had to be huge, I’m guessing. 10 is a total deal breaker for me in any case. Not that this is relevant to my actual life but as she noted, it’s good for girls to know what guys actually think.
It all depends upon your perspective. You can’t really even have a total deal breaker because nearly all women who aren’t virgins lie, and lie without shame or regret about it. I’ve caught out over a dozen women simply by remember what they said at one time versus another time without even asking them about it.
I don’t think her problem was that she used to be promiscuous as much as it is the fact that she lied about it, and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.
No, the problem is the number. Nearly all women lie. And Susan has already pointed out your error with regards to her ever having been with anyone else. I also suggest you drop the passive-aggressiveness about the male concerns about the statistically proven link between N, unfaithfulness and divorce somehow being tantamount to “insecurity”. If you’re going to look at it that way, all men who rank above low delta are “insecure”.
Which is ironic, because it is the gammas and low deltas who actually are insecure. Don’t be that girl. It won’t serve you well.
Funny how all of the most (self-described) “secure” guys married sluts and we “insecure” guys didn’t. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.
The problem here is that these women pay no price for their promiscuity and like everything else in life, force others to pay for their bad decisions. This is what men resent. The girls ride the carousel for years, jump off when they hit the wall, brazenly label it “the past” claiming this should make it not matter/i.e. null and void, then act clueless as to why the guy would be upset that this is now his burden. He gets to imagine his wife servicing lots of different men and she gets the Cinderella/Snow White/Sleeping beauty prince charming *anyway*, because we all know the prince would have fought just as hard and been just as happy if after slaying the dragon he had to pry her lips off some other guys c**k before riding off into the sunset.
Sleeping with men other than your husband dramatically and forever lowers your value in his eyes. You have given away something that should be special and reserved for him to others for much less cost. He gets to pay a lot more for what you handed out like Christmas candy to others on the cheap. His own value and self respect are the victims of your actions – the very thing he measures himself against. Girls don’t care because their innate solipsism denies this is a problem – they don’t care so no else should have the right too and it certainly shouldn’t get in the way of her picket fence and McManshion. Her chief complaint mind you isn’t that she was with these other guys (i.e. sincere repentance) but the fact that *he is upset about it*. Rather like looking at the parents of a child you just murdered because it was fun to do at the time and then being upset that they won’t invite you to their Christmas parties anymore. How unfair! It’s in the past!
As little as 60 years ago (and thousands of years continuously before this) female chastity was considered a serious matter because men cared about it. Now with enlightened feminine supremacy having replaced religion, values, and civilization, and solipsism backed up by shame and the law of the land, this is now not to be considered and men are to suffer in silence and are lacking character if they care about it all – i.e. you may not care about it because doing so upsets cupcake and worse demands responsibility for past actions. There is no greater distaste in the female world than for that of responsibility – someone else ALWAYS should pay, never her, so “get past it”, that was “in the past” i.e. “stop ruining my sparkly fantasy Barbie dream house future which I SOOO deserve with your negative appraisal of my value because I am a slut”. Prince charming should be just as willing to kill a dragon for a whore as a maiden, just ask feminists.
And yes that is how many men feel – particularly betas who get the spoiled, rotting, leftovers and are shamed into pretending they have steak OR ELSE – the burden is theirs never their wives beyond her distaste at being seen by him as she really is not how she wants to pretend to be. She gets to do whatever she wanted and then pushes off the penalty onto him. Rather like her giving you a nasty case of Herpees but for her it just never flares up again.
This couple will get divorced in a few years and it will be all HIS FAULT – just ask her. He will be labeled a terrible person for refusing to able to deal with her history and she will be further rewarded and he further punished by the divorce apparatus which will legally rape him continuously for the rest of his life. All parties will silently agree that while she maybe should not have lied (and really cupcake we don’t hold you responsible for that *or anything else!*) it really is purely and totally his fault.
This will not get better for him because he is actively being told that he is a bad person because the spoiled meat he is eating is NOT steak, and he can’t override his brain constantly reminding of this fact. He values his wife much less because THIS IS A NORMAL MALE REACTION TO FEMALE PROMISCUITY and he can’t simply turn off that biological reaction on feminist command despite being told this is politically incorrect – he is therefore a meany poo and should be condemned. Step one – post drippy self righteous post on popular board coached as a warning to others then bask in the glory of everyone agreeing that it really is his fault that the can’t handle your slutty past.
You may now go back to your standard programming. Men are bad for considering this. I am bad for writing it. Men who care about this are religious zealots with small penises who are insecure and have cooties. Her only crime was lying about how many murders she committed NOT the murders themselves. Consume. Stay asleep. Man up and marry those sluts. Future divorce lawyers income streams count on you.
“This couple will get divorced in a few years and it will be all HIS FAULT – just ask her.”
It’s his job to “man up” and make the decision whether he wants to stay with her now.
Either divorce her or decide to stay with her.
If they do get divorced in a few years, it’s his fault only because its his job to take action and dump her soon after he knew the truth if he decided it was a deal breaker.
“I won’t endorse the advice exactly as written, because it sets expectations too high for male investment early on in a feminist era.”
I don’t care what era we’re in, I’d actually endorse it. (*Help yourself to the grains of salt, to the left*)
Young women won’t listen to Nancy’s advice, on how men “think and feel about sex”, as long as we have women like Ashley pigeonholing the exact same thing as insecurity!!!!! (Or shaming like Just1Z appropriately put it)
@JP
yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce. not the least reason for which is that he should do it now. I still can’t believe that he married her…arse
“yes, in the end, this was his fault, that and believing her earlier lies. he’d best watch out for a couple of whoops pregnancies that secure her financial future beyond the divorce, because there will be a divorce. not the least reason for which is that he should do it now. I still can’t believe that he married her…arse”
I agree. Of course it would have been nice if his friends, family, and church all weren’t in cahoots to shame him into marrying her as a form of acceptance therapy – which is probably what happened. He should ditch her now while the alimony has time limits and there are no children to be enslaved over. Personally his thoughts on this are not likely to change and this will be a splinter in his mind basically forever.
I am having fun reading these comments and am a first time commenter…
So, on the opposite end of the spectrum…, I just got out of an 8 year relationship – engagement was ended, etc. I am 31 and my number is 2. Since there are such strong opinions on high numbers, what is the opinion on low numbers?
Ashley – “and to a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself”
Yep. MY woman. That is precisely what my wife is, and I made sure to be clear about it before we married.
So, since I’m basically “buying” her, I want the best deal I can get. Everyone knows a used car comes with some miles on the odometer, but most people wouldn’t buy a used car that had been in a big wreck. Carfax is in business because people don’t want to be tricked into buying a lemon.
Basically, when a guy is marrying a woman, he is “buying” her and therefore is concerned if she’s been in any major accidents in her past. He would probably also like to know if she was previously “owned” by a family and driven carefully, or used as a taxi and driven hard. As much as you may not like it, this is pretty much exactly what men are vetting for when they dig into past sexual history. I’m not looking to buy a used car that was previously used as a pace car at the race track. I’m thinking more like a well treated car that has all the bug worked out already is more appropriate.
You may not like it, but from my POV this is how it often goes down. I had to look at my wife’s past and decide if the mileage was too much for the asking price. Every man probably has a different threshold for walking away from a deal, but every man should have the chance to make an honest assessment before he says “I Do”.
@M3
Spot on. That link sums it up fairly well. But for every one of those rational, straightforward takes there are dozens of “answers” to the question of “her past” out there that include a litany of rationalizations that men are supposed to accept on their way to manning up and/or proving their worth as a mate via their ability to be confident and secure in themselves enough to digest any manner of “her past” behaviors/decisions. I jokingly posted some of those rationalizations on the courtship thread, from the perspective of a woman fretting over a man’s N and they seemed wildly unrealistic, yet when flipped, all too common.
In so much of this type of discussion, the Past is something to be referenced selectively. The cherry-picking of decisions that matter and what they mean now, i.e. N is irrelevant, but other decisions – accomplishments go to (positive) character, is being manipulated to the point where it is no surprise that many men are now going in with the baseline assumption that she has a high N. I think a fair amount of women similarly hold the view that “all he wants is sex” or “men are afraid of commitment”.
To your point on the PoF mid 30′s woman. Her Masters and her 6 month round the world holiday are high-value but her 20 or 30 almost relationships are irrelevant. The message in terms of what men really value for the long-term continues to be disrupted and devalued and it is hurting women. She can’t unwind her N, but she can still benefit greatly from aligning her approach and expectations with reality.
@Escoffier #21
Agree. The whole argument re: male insecurity is just one more way in which the prevailing culture moves the discussion away from reality. Maybe it is biology, cuckold fear, or maybe it is insecurity or some other male fantasy of how we might attribute value to something coveted, rare, special. There is the debate about why and then there is the discussion about what IS.
I don’t care WHY women prefer tall men who display social dominance or prefer extroverted or aggressive men with a balanced sense of indifference. I just know (care) that they DO. My job as a man, if I care to participate, to compete for what I want, is to consider that reality when making my decisions and focusing on my behaviors that are most likely to be successful in that regard.
It always strikes me that everyone is always so quick to point out what simple creatures men are, yet when men simply state or react or chose something that works against how women want them to be, their assumption is that it is a flaw, a weakness, or at best some complex biological leftover that we need to evolve beyond.
The parsimony of the discussion is lost on them. We can’t just discuss that enough men value N to make it real, to make it matter, it has to be some confluence of evo-bio-cultural-personality. And those things just can’t “be”; the WHAT IS needs to be deconstructed to WHAT SHOULD BE in order to reinforce the prevailing cultural perspective.
I’m not saying that happens here at HUS, but certainly “out there”, these discussions almost always end up returning to the male insecurity narrative with the men wisely shutting up while the women alternate between constructing increasingly elaborate rationalizations and shaming the weak, judgmental men.
One other point… “I feel badly and think that he could’ve had any girl in the world – an innocent girl – but instead he’s stuck with me. Damaged goods.”
Her high number of former f–k buddies is a constant reminder of his low value. If he could have gotten a virgin as good as you (or found a virgin AT ALL these days) he would have done so. Instead he settled for her likely because that was all he thought he could get = ie. he is not worth being her or anyone’s first and with his “wife” he doesn’t even place or show. A tough burden to carry for the rest of your life – ouch!
Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is quite low). Then in the mysterious world of male meany poo psychology it wouldn’t matter as much. Flights to bangkok are cheaper in the summer off season and I hear the temples are pretty to look at.
If men shouldn’t be insecure about her number…
Women shouldn’t be insecure about his looks.
His earning potential.
His personality.
His attitude.
N is your value women…you know this deep down but you have to rationalize it. Shame and rationalization is never going to change it.
@Cooper
the shaming language attacks have been codified:
‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
Quite amusing & enlightening. Other websites give guides as well, but this one looks un-ranty. didn’t check the comments, so sensitive types may wish to skip those.
Tragically (for feminists) even the majority of blue-pill men wise up when they see the shaming language tactics laid out bare – now codified, these tactics have waning efficacy in the real world. As Ashley can attest…
As I once pointed out elsewhere, the biggest, most urgent and growing, issue for feminists is how to shame men that don’t care what they think…
tumbleweeds? *sigh* well, I laughed anyway… that will have to do.
“Funny how all of the most (self-described) “secure” guys married sluts and we “insecure” guys didn’t. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.”
Yeah secure guys get divorced and/or cuckolded. Good for them for having the mental fortitude to take such abuse in their one and only life.
Of course the “secure” guys married the high-partner count women. They have security = money, status.
Insecure men (low-earning men, low-status men) don’t have the security. A lower-class man marrying a slut is a disaster. He cannot provide for her expensive tastes, her penchant for variety of choices (meaning consumerism = equals different products = different partners).
Sluts thrive and are abundant in expensive locales of big cities, where there is money, power, status and liberalism.
They don’t thrive in working class areas or lower middle class areas (whether rural, suburban or big city). In poor areas, they just end up as single mothers or old divorcees.
That’s consistently what liberals don’t get. Only super-rich men are secure enough for them.
And besides seeing security vs. insecurity is rational.
@Remo
“Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is low)”
This is what we know about their numbers. When she initially lied, she said it was 10 lower than it actually was. And when she admitted to the full number it was twice, what he considered, an acceptable amount.
Along with:
“His number is slightly higher than mine, but he is also a decade older than me.”
This was long, long ago; australopithecine days really. This was immediately post-Woodstock, pre-Watergate stuff and the new sexual libertarianism was still pretty fresh and pretty heady.
There were two girls in our area who didn’t go off to college; Lisa was a blonde hippie goddess – think Sienna Miller but with Kat Denning’s chest and Nicki Minaj’s you-know-what. Laura was her red-headed, down-for-anything sidekick who looked a little more like Howdy Doody than was really comfortable, but she had a cute, trim figure and was deliriously happy with Lisa’s leftovers.
In the five years we knew them, they tore through enough musicians, cowboys, “writers”, promoters, wannabes, drug dealers and countercultural entrepreneurs to make a friend of mine comment “This ain’t gonna end well.”
Lisa ended up marrying a kind of dorky, big-eared guy, surprising everybody. He turned out to have an enormous amount of ambition and ended up a state senator. They’re still married, have three kids, and still send us a Christmas card. Lisa still looks great, but the funny thing is that she and her husband look like SMP peers now.
After Lisa married, Laura wasn’t able to exit the carousel with the same grace. She fell hard for a minor league ball player and when he dumped her, she committed suicide on his doorstep.
Point being, it’s possible for the really stellar looking girls to get away with it. Opie knew all about Lisa’s past. I think taming a counter-cultural princess allowed him to appeal to voters most Republican candidates wouldn’t be able to reach. Also, you never really got the vibe from Lisa that she was into sex. There was always a mercenary aroma about her.
It was different with poor Laura. She put her heart and soul into it. You can only wonder how she would have turned out if she had picked her friends better.
//I am 31 and my number is 2. Since there are such strong opinions on high numbers, what is the opinion on low numbers?
Banging other men does to your “wife value” the same thing that banging your car does to its resale value.
When you sell your car, you don’t get bonus points for NOT ramming it into a tree 3 years ago.
Unfortunately banging (in both cases) is a negative modifier and lack of it can only do you good in terms of comparative value (when compared to other … cars), but it does not increase objective (absolute) value.
“Another way to deal with this is for him to dramatically increase his number (my guess is his is low)”
the problem isn’t that her number is higher than his, the problem is that her number is too high for his standards.
your suggestion means that you do not understand that this isn’t afairness issue, it is about what most men find acceptable in a partner. Do we get the ‘double standards’ BS argument now?
women should feel free to act as they wish, but there will be consequences in the MMP for most women.
and the issue about alphas not minding about high N? Oreally? alphas have even less reason to settle for high-n, they have more options.
I am sure that there are men that don’t care, and so I wish high-N women “Good Hunting”. You are not going to shame men out of what used to be called ‘standards’ when you demand that they sign up for commitment..
The story can be read three ways, depending on the audience.
First way is the male perspective. I think that one’s clear by now.
The second is the way I think Susan intended, as a warning to young girls with low N. They see that the past and the lie both screwed things up, and might seek to avoid it by either keeping their N low, by getting their N high and lying about it more effectively, or by getting their N high and being honest – letting the chips fall where they may.
The third way, and the way that I think the guys are seeing and Susan is missing (forgive me if this has been pointed out, I only skimmed the comments), is the way women with an already-high N will see it. Namely, that lying and coming clean later is an acceptable escape strategy. It reinforces to them that most guys, particularly quality guys, will write them off as bad investments, and only by lying can they succeed. It’s not like a high-N girl can undo the past, which is the entire reason for all the angst, so she either lies back and accepts her fate, or lies to the guy and takes control. Naturally, the more women lie, the more men will suspect that honest women are liars as well, so this strategy pollutes the well for everyone.
(My writing style involves way too many metaphors and similes)
For what it’s worth, I think most of us guys overestimate our ability to spot a slag. Anyone can see the easy cases, but there are far more marginal cases of women who look and act mostly normal – and, for the record, great for them if they are normal; the problem is that too many women are good at acting normal only to become cold fish or adulteresses later on. On the other hand, a lot of guys who don’t overestimate our ability to spot a slag just assume that any woman we meet is one (I freely admit that’s what I do).
So the problem is that men 9especially high value men), by our nature, don’t usually like high-N, but high-N women want these men and are competing with low-N women. (Note that, just as hypergamy is simply a fact and neither good nor evil, the same is true of this male preference). So the low-N women suffer when high-N women lie. The only solution, short of changing human nature (and if we’re doing that, why not change hypergamy as well?), is an alternative strategy for high-N women to quickly and reliably find satisfaction, and for the men to be satisfied with those women, without the need for dishonesty.
I don’t think such a thing exists.
Eh…just go watch “Les Miserables” and look at what happened to Fantine.
I feel bad for both of them. She lied repeatedly and still ended up married. He asked for a number, but didn’t press for honesty enough until it was too late, and still married her.
Wait. It is never too late to breakup before you get married. He should still have broken up. His principles didn’t stand up. He compromised, which rots his soul.
She was a liar. She should have broken up with him, but she was selfish.
My feeling is they deserve each other. Live with it. Stop fighting over a done deal. Stay married; however, don’t have kids if there is still a speck of doubt. Otherwise, get divorced.
“your suggestion means that you do not understand that this isn’t afairness issue, it is about what most men find acceptable in a partner. Do we get the ‘double standards’ BS argument now?”
I understand it perfectly well – I also know that I am dealing, likely, with a beta and not an alpha. Your other statement about alphas not tolerating sluttiness is true as they have high value and can demand higher value women – women absolutely lose value based on their number – that’s how it is. Double standard? yep. was the argument you were waiting for? Nature doesn’t care to justify itself on this – it just is.
As to his betaness an alpha wouldn’t have married a girl that doesn’t meet his standards regardless of who was telling him to do it. So he’s a beta and insecure and pissed off that this broad, HIS broad, is a slut showing his low value. Bang a bunch of hot girls and his perceived value *may* go up. Other than this the other avenue is to divorce so he doesn’t have to shoulder the burden of her sluttiness. No good answers for this one other than her keeping her legs together which didn’t happen.
Won’t most women with a high N just take this as a lesson that if you start out by lying, you should continue to lie? Nancy is in trouble because she came clean, after all. Most men don’t have a vague clue how high a woman’s number is, no matter how much they go on about “slut tells”. And unless many of these are men are in her social circle, there is no way of finding out. Maybe they are scattered across the planet, maybe most of them are deleted from Facebook (if they were ever there). These things are lied about and covered up, and if there were ever any red flags, he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before, and if his “light is on” (i.e. he’s looking for a wife), it’s my impression that anything goes.
I’m not sure how alarming this letter is. Women either have the urge to sleep around, and will, or don’t, and won’t. A 26 year old friend of mine with a 50+ N recently got engaged to a handsome, 6″, rich, 30 year old guy. My guess is that they haven’t discussed sexual history and won’t either, which seems to be the norm these days. Maybe this is my European background speaking, but over here, the ‘slut shaming’ seems like a bit of a lost cause.
“These things are lied about and covered up, and if there were ever any red flags, he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before, and if his “light is on” (i.e. he’s looking for a wife), it’s my impression that anything goes.”
If he’s “looking for a wife”, anything goes?
*skriek*
This topic is fun.
I’ll be over here if anyone wants me
@Cooper
Yeah that sounds weird, but the taxi theory is pretty spot on. Men’s requirements for a wife are often very affected by the timing. Combined with her hotness of course.
“Your other statement about alphas not tolerating sluttiness is true as they have high value and can demand higher value women – women absolutely lose value based on their number – that’s how it is”
cool
“Millennial women, be aware. Feminism did not rid society of the sexual double standard. Men remain loath to commit to women with considerable previous sexual experience.”
By the same token women remain loathe to commit to men with a considerable previous sexual past.
“Why? Because it significantly raises the risk of a man’s raising someone else’s child, which is obviously not in his best interest. He sees your past as a valid predictor of your future behavior. ”
The ball bounces both ways. We also see his past as a valid predictor of future behavior. What to speak of high risk of STDs, there is also the risk that any child he may father with another woman will take considerable resources away from OUR child.
The other thing you should be aware of is that the truth will out. Hiding your past for a lifetime is extremely difficult logistically, but it is also very burdensome psychologically to keep that secret.
From Nancy:
“I’m so incredibly sad. I’m living a life full of regret. I am now married to the most wonderful man – he is every woman’s dream:
First impressions: handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male, excellent communicator.”
So far so good.
“Lasting impressions: loving, caring, kind, the provider, amazing lover.”
Sounds awesome.
“Women throw themselves at him.
Whoa! Red flag.
“And he chose to be with me.”
For now, anyway.
It is best advised for people of equal rank, previous sexual experience and desirability to marry. That way one will not be overly worried about the other because both are in the same both and likely to behave similarly going forward.
If men don’t “throw themselves at you” as a woman, then its best not to involve yourself with a man whom women throw themselves at.
@ SW:
*raise hand slowly*
By actually not having much sexual experience.
There’s a learning curve when dating someone new, and those who have a lot of sexual experience would be hard pressed to successfully “fake” the mannerisms of those with less experience. It’s similar to how late bloomers to dating tend to be more awkward/unsure of the script to follow when romantically interested in someone. There will be awkward moments and tells that you’re learning as you go. And depending on how low the N is, there may be physical tells as well.
In my case, my N is 2. My bf knew I was not lying because when we first attempted PIV he didn’t fit.. Kind of hard to fake that! It took awhile to “adjust” and today we’re all good
(I thanked him for making trips to the obgyn less painful, lol). However, I would imagine once your N surpasses 3 there are far less tells (assuming that number would include at least 2 LTRs).
a) Given advances in social media and face recognition tech, leaving a slutty past behind is going to be harder and harder. You think that that viral video of the woman frotting a tree isn’t going to be with her for life?
b) You clearly can’t trust a woman to tell the truth then? glad that it’s out in the open.
“A 26 year old friend of mine with a 50+ N recently got engaged to a handsome, 6″, rich, 30 year old guy.”
ahhh, another classic.
“Your statement about how the majority of men feel must be wrong because I have one counter argument.”
Kind of like,
“most people are right handed”
“oh no, you’re wrong because I have a friend who is left handed”
*face-palm*
it’s a logic thang…
@Anne
“Women either have the urge to sleep around, and will [and lie about it], or don’t, and won’t.”
FTFY. It’s clear which side you lie on. Hehe.
But, obviously you must be hot enough …
@Ashley who says the true problem in the story is…
One has to stop and ask if the man’s discomfort here is unique, if he’s among only a minority of men who would feel this way given the same circumstances. If so, then it’s indeed very much his own insecurity. But if a majority of guys would feel this same way when put in this same spot–which even the woman in the story somewhat reveals by virtue of her even feeling a need to hide her number–then problem is very likely the woman’s. The problem would then be the woman’s partner count and not the man’s “insecurity.” …And in this story here, the second explanation is the far, far more likely one.
Put differently, the man’s feeling here is not an irrational insecurity; it’s his male alarm bell–something which has evolved over thousands or even millions of years–trying to warn him of a very real risk. Specifically, her promiscuity is a marker of a potential cuckold or risk of her later leaving him.
“he’ll overlook it if she’s hot enough. If she’s hotter than any woman he’s been with before”
you may have a point there, maybe, so, do you feel lucky punk? The stats still say that her high-N makes her a poor long term prospect, so the marriage issue is far from moot.
My european background says that you’re, generally speaking, wrong that men here wish to marry up the town bike any more than in the States. Especially if his social circle will subsequently find out, or even worse, his family. And the chances of the cat getting out of the bag are only going to go up as technology improves. YMMV, best of luck
“a man who is insecure about the thought of ” his woman” ever being with anyone other than himself.”
That wasn’t the case here though. He didn’t expect her to be a virgin. Nanc said he had a general number, I’ll assume not more than say, 5, that he found “acceptable”.
“She lied because the truth would have been catastrophic.”
How so? They weren’t married yet when she first lied. If he had broken up with her at that point it would be just another boyfriend/girlfriend relationship coming to an end which happens everyday without incident. Its as common as the air we breathe.
“By the same token women remain loathe to commit to men with a considerable previous sexual past.”
Completely incorrect. In fact any man that can get lots of women will find many more quite eager to commit to him because of his real world proven greater value. Men and women are different and value different things. Life does not mirror a high school diversity pamphlet.
@Just1Z
That was just one example. Every promiscuous woman I know have no problem getting an LTR. Maybe my perception is different because I am not American. Or maybe it is different because I am a woman, and have more inside information on the ACTUAL numbers of women in LTRs.
@Cooper
“It is clear which side you are on”.
Is it? I am only 22 and my number is lower than every woman I know, and my friends aren’t all promiscuous. Again, men’s ability to “read” a woman’s number appears to be plain guessing.
Anne – so your argument is that men don’t mind that women have high body counts because all the women you know are sluts and have had LTR’s?
I may not like trout but if that is all there is in the water where I am fishing I will still eat it rather than starve.
@Escoffier, M3
I’ve always been surprised by other mens’ focus on the absolute N, not the relative number. By relative I mean “what % of guys who’ve propositioned her/hit on her/dated her has she slept with”? Because if the root of the whole problem with a high N is how selective the girl is (with high selectivity indicating that you are a special choice), doesn’t it make more sense to focus on the relative N? I know I think that way. I’d have issues with a mildly attractive girl having an N of say, 15 at age 25, because I know that she doesn’t get hit on an enormous amount and so obviously wasn’t all that selective. However, a very hot girl with N of 15 at that age? I probably wouldn’t even blink. A very hot girl in a big city gets hit a dozen of times a day or more. So even if she has an N of 15, you may be in the lucky .1% who gets there. With a moderately attractive girl, you may be one of 10% of the guys. I know where I’d rather be, and it has nothing to do with absolute N.
Anne – Well if we were all honest with each other, men wouldn’t have to guess, would they?
If guy wants to know a woman’s N, she has NO justification for lying other than to protect her own ass. It is denying the man his agency to decide for himself if SHE is fit for his commitment based on her N. He has every right in the world to use N, her waist size, her IQ, or anything he feels is important for DQing her as wife potential. As much as I tried to give Nancy a pep talk on the original thread, she is responsible for this mess. Not because she slept around (although that is the issue at the core) but that she LIED to get him to commit.
Honestly if I was him, I would already be drawing up the divorce paperwork. Of course, I also would have walked away if/when she told me her real N the first time I asked as well. Or, put another way, *I* would not be the right guy for Nancy no matter how much she thought I would be, and her lying to ME to get my commitment is theft and fraud.
I wish her the best, and hope that they can work things out. But, if it was me in her husbands shoes, there would be nothing left to work on at this point.
I must obviously raise the obvious feminist screed that would be raised after reading this heartening post.
I guess you can dismiss the issue by saying that any reference to this being at least in part the guy’s emotional issue as “feminist,” but the minute I read, “He asked my number,” I knew that Nancy had chosen the wrong guy for her. Obviously, she should not have lied to him and sucked him in, but, in this SMP adult women, much less adult women with kids, for whom n=1 are unusual. And I suspect he knew, at some level, that her n =/= 1 because he kept asking her about it.
I marvel at how often this issue comes up in various blogs. I personally have never been asked that question by any guy I’ve been in a relationship with, my husband included. The general assumption on both my part and the part of the men has been that everyone has a past to some degree or another. If men are going to pursue pre-marital sexual relationships they are going to “sully the pond” and make it impossible for many other men to find low number women. If a man has had previous partners, he has little to complain about in my book.
The practical ramifications of all of this…?
1) If you are a woman with higher than average N, lie. Assume that men will freak out about it.
2) If you are a man, assume that the woman is lying about her N. Assume that she assumes that you would freak out about the true number.
I’m in the minority here because I don’t really care about a woman’s N too much unless it crosses an arbitrary threshold that I find to be highly correlated with a lot of unhealthy psychological issues. However, I am very sensitive about certain particulars—if she casually slept with someone I know, for example, I would really struggle with any kind of LTR investment, even if her overall N was low. I also would want the initial option to have sex with her on the same “most favored penis” trade terms that any other man has received, and she should probably expect me to want to experience all of the wildest antics that she got up to with past BFs + some flourishes to appease my ego.
Man, it sounds like women are going to have a tougher and tougher time dealing with guys in the SMP: the sexually restricted men who are high-quality LTR choices have been conditioned to be paranoid about hook-up culture and price discrimination, and thus are quite intolerant and judgmental where female N is concerned. The guys who are permissive and tolerant are players and they will encourage high female N because it benefits them. It’s like a girl has a choice between Taliban Todd and Playboy Bob.
@Anne
I’m English.
How happy the sluts that you hang around with must be that their partners haven’t taken the red-pill yet. As long as the guyz don’t marry the girlz then, no problem. I wish them luck (the guys).
But, to be fair, I don’t think men should marry anyway. There is little, if anything, in it for them. the downsides can be catastrophic, so best avoided.
PS to the above
This was definitely true of my ex. She wasn’t a slut, but she wasn’t a virgin either. I met some of the other guys she’d hooked up with (in passing), and all of them were attractive, popular guys. I would’ve been pretty pissed had I found out she slept with trolls before me, but I witnessed first hand the bunch of beta orbiters she had around her who she never even flirted with. She got cat-called on the street a few times I was with her, and other guys hit on her when I’d be away at the bar. I feel much more special to be a) in the company of other attractive men and b) be the one guy out of dozens who she does respond to than be the guy who get laid because I was the first one to hit on her that night.
@Remo
I am not saying that men don’t mind, I am saying that they often don’t have a clue. And if they are infatuated enough (like Nancy’s man), they seem willing to overlook red flags in they do find one, in the same way women overlook red flags when they really want to date a hot guy.
Seems like some assume I am defending sluts. I am not. After all, in an ideal situation, sex and commitment would go hand in hand. But a lot of women offer ONS, and the men we’d love to date are taking the offer. I am just stating how it is, from my experience. I get a strong impression that men online are not being entirely truthful. There is a lot of “I’ll find out”, but I’ve never witnessed it. Social media will catch out the extremes, those who do not care about their reputation whatsoever, but they are in a minority, even among the promiscuous ones.
@ Anne:
Boom!
FWIW, I hear you. People are just starting to get married in my social group and I know 2 brides who are N > 30. I also know high N women who have no trouble finding boyfriends while my other low N friends are having a tough time meeting guys.
Life ain’t fair. There is no weighed scale looming to even things out. If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught. Those women are living their lives, dating and mating with little thought to this topic. It’s not the path I would take, but I can’t deny their finding their way. I hope to attain my own happy ending in a way that holds integrity in adherence to my personal values (IOW, I’ll make my own way as a restricted woman as their journey has no bearing on mine!).
“It did work because they got married.”
Nancy is married to a man she says does not respect her. That sounds like a pretty miserable marriage.
Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.
Anne – the assumption you are making is that he was “infatuated enough” which I believe is in error. Assuming he spoke about this to others (questionable) there is not one mainstream source out there that wouldn’t hesitate to shame him over it acting like it was his fault. My guess (based on experience with others) is that he was actively told that she was a “nice girl” (demonstrably false) and that he “should” marry her and that he would feel better about it in time. I can only speak from the experiences of friends here but I have never heard of this getting better. He in all likelihood wasn’t infatuated he was manipulated, left with the impression that because this shouldn’t bother him that his feelings would magically change with time, etc. That is the council the churches in the U.S. actively provide through the patented “Jesus forgave me so you should too” get out of jail free card. I am assuming alot of course but if his friends/family etc. actively told him to avoid this slut (which would have been the advice given in the past) would he be in this mess? Maybe not.
“And if they are infatuated enough (like Nancy’s man), they seem willing to overlook red flags in they do find one, in the same way women overlook red flags when they really want to date a hot guy.”
I think that the problem comes when the infatuation wears off later on in the marriage and his actual opinions are no longer overridden by the infatuation.
http://socialpathology.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/more-promiscuity-data.html
Good stuff. Here’s a quote
IIRC (from elsewhere, maybe) the same effect exists for men, but it is less pronounced. high-n is a more significant marital risk in women than in men. (Social*) Science says that the ‘double-standard’ is justified by reality, regardless of what women think is fair.
*yeah, I know. but if the results don’t favour women then the underlying data must be fairly impervious to being twisted to fit the favoured narrative. As S.P. says
“Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”
I’m glad somebody said this. It was his choice and he needs to stop feeling sorry for himself. Also, the flippancy with which some commentors here are so ready to throw in the towel on a legal marriage, which may involve children, is astounding. Even if she or her husband were to have cheated, if they have children they should do everything possible, AND THEN SOME, to stay together for their sake.
Iggles
“*raise hand slowly*
By actually not having much sexual experience.”
The problem is that sexual experience has nothing to do with # of partners in many cases. A girl who’s had 30 partners may have had sex 70 times, while a girl who’s had 1 boyfriend since high school could have had sex 3x a week for 10 years. If you’ve had 2 long term partners, you’ve had more sex than someone who is unrestricted who has had a history of STR and ONS.
“There’s a learning curve when dating someone new, and those who have a lot of sexual experience would be hard pressed to successfully “fake” the mannerisms of those with less experience. ”
I agree. Charisma is possibly a slut tell (if there is one). Butttt I’m not sure.
Often a girl who falls under the halo effect is who shocks men the most, I’ve noticed. Because she’s sweet, bubbly, and contagious. When men stop applying the “slut radar” to women they don’t know, that could help. We’ve all shared the stories of slutty girls who are about a 4-6 in attractiveness, but super “nice”. They ping no one’s slut radar based on appearance but men could ask feminism questions during dates, whether she likes to drink, try and gage if she loves an audience, etc., maybe those are better clues. But that could be my introvert bias.
Chances are the more effort you have to put into approaching someone, the less likely she is to be a slut (other guys may have had the same hesitation), girls who are totally comfortable with guys are likely to have had more experience with men. But that’s obviously case-by-case. There are attractive women with low N and unattractive women with high N, so I am sure that could apply to the introvert/extraverts too. Perhaps an extravert will weigh in who has a low N.
“Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”
It is easy to make vows when you are infatuated because everything is happy and wonderful and sparkly.
“Nancy is married to a man she says does not respect her. That sounds like a pretty miserable marriage.’
Miserable – for him. When the marriage ends she’ll get cash and prizes. Home run from her perspective.
“Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others”.
Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.
“He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”
Translation: he can’t think that way and should spend thousands of dollars working out his thought crimes of being male by going to a professional to hear that he is a bad person. Once appropriately shamed he’ll fall in line and not care about this anymore so she can be happy.
” Also, the flippancy with which some commentors here are so ready to throw in the towel on a legal marriage, which may involve children, is astounding. Even if she or her husband were to have cheated, if they have children they should do everything possible, AND THEN SOME, to stay together for their sake.”
Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.
I said that he needed to man up and make a choice as to whether he was going to stay.
Meaning that if he wanted to divorce, then now is the time to do it.
And if he wanted to stay, he needs to move on.
You know, as a virgin myself (late 20s actually), I don’t know why topics like these irks me. Maybe because my views on it are pretty unique (or seem to be). Warning: this comment may be all over the place a little bit, maybe because when it comes to my opinion on topics such as this, it’s mixed.
First of all, I believe that both males and females should wait until marriage to have sex and that promiscuity is wrong. So if the guy has a history himself, who is he to complain about his girlfriend’s number, and if this guy is “alpha” in the same sense as what’s popular in regards to sexual partners, then I wonder how many people HE slept with? Yes, I’m aware of the many reasons why it’s considered ok for guys, it’s just that to me they seem more like excuses, if that makes sense. It just doesn’t make it any less ok than when females do it (I think that’s how that saying goes lol).
Secondly, I understand that the guy was pissed off that he was lied to. I also would understand his viewpoint more if his issues with promiscuous women stems from their likelihood to stay loyal and a little something called STDs. As for feelings of “ickyness”, I kind of get it. Kind of how many women prefer guys who are taller than them, not shorter (I’m the same way), there’s not really an actual reason for the feeling, or one that makes sense – at least in today’s day and age. To be honest, if I was with a guy and found out that he has been with 20-something-plus sexual partners, I would be bothered by it, although I probably wouldn’t be as upset as the guy in the letter. My hypothetical boyfriend would just have to have some amazing qualities (kind, great personality, sense of humor, a geniuenly good person). Anyway, when it comes to the problem of another man’s kids – if she doesn’t have any, then to me this shouldn’t be an issue, unless she eventually cheats and no protection was involved, which comes back to the issue of loyalty.
With all that being said, I’m one of those people who believe that a person doesn’t have to be defined by who they used, especially when they’ve made an effort to change for the better (although in this case it looks like Nancy just stopped when she felt like it). While it’s fine for people to be wary of people who used to be promiscuous for reasons such as STDs and infidelity, I don’t think that people who used to be promiscuous should be written across the board as “damaged goods” and not suitable for marriage.
It’s fine for people to have preferences. It’s fine to be cautious of certain types of people when looking for a mate. I just don’t agree with the idea that they should be universally written off. Or rather, I don’t understand it.
Yeah, I really think this comment is all over the place
” Every promiscuous woman I know have no problem getting an LTR. Maybe my perception is different because I am not American. Or maybe it is different because I am a woman, and have more inside information on the ACTUAL numbers of women in LTRs.
Boom!
FWIW, I hear you. People are just starting to get married in my social group and I know 2 brides who are N > 30. I also know high N women who have no trouble finding boyfriends while my other low N friends are having a tough time meeting guys.
Life ain’t fair. There is no weighed scale looming to even things out. If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught. Those women are living their lives, dating and mating with little thought to this topic. It’s not the path I would take, but I can’t deny their finding their way. ”
It could be that promiscuous women in general have a more open and pleasant demeanor whereas non-promiscuous women might come off uptight, judgemental, scornful, and generally not as happy.
I don’t agree with it but I’ve sometimes heard people say, “she needs to get laid” when a particularly tightly wound or angry seeming female comes into the midst. Its even said about depressed women.
@Iggles
“If guys here are expecting high N women to get their comeuppance when it comes time to commitment, in most case they’ll be waiting for naught.”
I don’t give a tinker’s toss if they get their comeuppance. My only concern is for the guys that chance their marital arm on them. I’d like all men to take the red-pill and see reality. If they are in all cognisance of reality, then they should do as they wish – marry, LTR, STR whatever.
I have no interest in whether women pay the piper, only that blue pill guys don’t end up paying the bill later.
Whatever two sane individuals want to get up to in private, bothers me not at all – but honesty all round please.
@Oz
“I don’t agree with it but I’ve sometimes heard people say, “she needs to get laid” when a particularly tightly wound or angry seeming female comes into the midst. Its even said about depressed women.”
you should find some interesting google results
men ‘inject’ many feel good, bonding chemicals into women during sex (no condoms, obviously). Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women. The men are also relieved, so it’s a win-win (STDs aside)
Anyway, gcc beckons, so goodnight and ctrl-z
Maggie, “Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others. He needs to make an honest attempt to honor his vows, and maybe that means couples’ therapy.”
JP, “It is easy to make vows when you are infatuated because everything is happy and wonderful and sparkly.”
But didn’t he already know she lied to him? Where’s the “sparkly” in that? And yet he still CHOSE to marry her.
Remo, “Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.”
She did not dishonor him after marriage. He knew BEFORE they married that she had lied. And he still CHOSE to marry her.
JP, “Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”
No, it was not. Unless I’m wrong that he knew BEFORE he married her that she had lied about her number. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Remo,
“Nancy’s husband knew about her past, he knew she had lied, and he still stood at the altar and promised to love, honor, cherish her and forsake all others”.
Yes and she made the same vow, which she cannot keep, because you can’t honor your husband if your past consists of dishonoring him.
See, I don’t get this. Her past has nothing to do with him. He wasn’t even in the picture then. How can you dishonor someone by something you did in your past when you didn’t even know the person existed? If he doesn’t trust her to stay faithful, then I can understand that.
What annoys me is this whole “innocent” vs “dirty” comparison. There is no person on this planet who is “innocent”. Everyone has sinned in one way or another.
“Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”
Yes and it is interesting that this concept would be shocking. In the old testament of the bible finding out your wife was not a virgin on your wedding night did not mean a visit to the Oprah show for a little cry in and some counseling, it was a deal breaker and the vows taken were declared null and void along with very severe punishments for the woman. I realize we are beyond morality now and all that old value stuff was just misogyny and men should work just as hard keeping the lights on for sluts as they do for undamaged women but what happens when the dishonesty and shaming no longer are enough? Society is looking pretty good with a bright future now is it?
Low number women should get the heck away from big cities, which are mostly liberal and full of liberal men, who marry ambitious career oriented high-N women.
Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).
And no, contrary to liberal hysteria, mantras and misconceptions, they are not “hypocrites”. Sheesh.
Renee – the fact that you do not understand it does not mean it does not or should not exist as a value and as I pointed out before it isn’t like this concept is new as you’ll find it in pretty much every major religion.
@ Zach 79
“I’ve always been surprised by other mens’ focus on the absolute N, not the relative number. By relative I mean “what % of guys who’ve propositioned her/hit on her/dated her has she slept with”?”
Long and short of it.. i have a number in my head that im comfy with, that tells me whether or not a woman has been making good choices, repeated mistakes or is just wanton.
Her number is just that, a number. I don’t have the time or inclination to audit her about each and every man she’s done, the situation or circumstances that led to, whether he lied or if it ‘just happened’, whether he courted her for months, or it was a 1 night stand fun hop, etc…
If she crosses threshold of N greater than my value system / my own life experience.. commitment is toast. Full stop.
Is she a bad person? No (even tho she’s made it harder for chaste women to command time from men to learn about their intentions/honesty). I would keep her for an FWB relationship at most.
But marriage or cohabit? Look to someone else who wont care about your N like i do. Probably someone with a high N as well.
This woman got lucky that she held the lie out long enough
Not really. She’s in for the same horrid life as Mrs. deti, locked into a relationship that promises to be forever miserable for both of them. If she were smart, she’d cut her losses and move on to a guy who can deal with her past. Who the hell would want to live with the knowledge that this unresolved issue is going to hang over them forever? If I were her, I’d explain to the guy that I can see that the past is an unresolvable issue for him, but that I was wrong in lying and that I was willing to let him off the hook if that’s what he wants. But if he deided to stay, I sure wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life hearing about his issues with things that can’t be changed.
@OZ
“She did not dishonor him after marriage. He knew BEFORE they married that she had lied. And he still CHOSE to marry her. ”
That is what she said.
@Remo
“When the marriage ends she’ll get cash and prizes. Home run from her perspective.”
You know, there are actually wives who love and cherish their husbands and would be devastated if their husbands divorced them. No, really.
@Susan
“How can a woman convince a man she is not holding him to different standards than the men in her past?”
A) The keep it simple stupid approach. Don’t have a past. I know unfair and all but it definitely is the most intuitively obvious.
B) Have an acceptable past that is well documented.
C) Perfect your ability to lie.
Also, I half agree with George. I did not assume woman were sluts but it was always something I mentally prepared for.
“She did not dishonor him after marriage.”
True, she dishonored him before marriage which is what he has trouble dealing with. Old concept, hard wired. Welcome to Earth.
@Zach
I’m with you on the relative and contextual part – to a point. I still believe that if the actual N questions come up, there is probably some other reason(s) for that, which may or may not be a red flag on several levels. But I can understand why it comes down to that sometimes.
But in your case, knowing the hit rate % is just as unknowable as the rest. We are still relying on our construction of an image, an artificial reality. I think the absolute N part comes in because there is so much interference with how men and women communicate their values re: intimacy and past relationships. E.g. I’ve known women who act sexually aggressive and quite forward who have well below average N’s and women who never use vulgar language or other suggestive behaviors who have spent years cleaning up. There is a problem in our SMP relative to how values are held up and communicated. And part of the issue is that women want the option to entertain certain behaviors while protecting those behaviors from how men may value them. And there are all kinds of counterproductive messages about this, not the least of which is that it is about male insecurity.
So while you may choose not to focus on absolute N, you still place a high value on her past decisions. The perceived status of her past choices matter to you – or at least make you feel *something*. So it is easy to say something doesn’t matter, as in, her actual N, as long as you can get comfortable with her past being in the acceptable range given your attribution of circumstances and probabilities and consisting of high-value encounters.
But at the crux you are essentially doing the rationalization work because the fact is that at some level it does still matter. Your point re: absolute N is most applicable in the sense that we can never know everything about the past, but for some men, the context and estimating they have to do to back-into some reasonable assumption about her selectivity and ultimately what value she places(ed) on intimacy is not enough.
I’m not saying there is a right or wrong approach, but thats the point. You don’t require absolutes, but you do require some combination of variables that allows you to find comfort. Which is really all most men are looking for.
The important takeaway is that for most men: *IT* matters. The “it” could be absolute N, and it doesn’t matter if those past guys were chumps. For others it is all context: no chumps or no ONS. Still others it is a combination: a few ONS (ok). The point is, *IT* has value.
If a woman does not believe it should or she herself has not respected it as something of value in the past or she has substantially changed her own view of its value, that is fine. Then she needs to filter for men who hold a similar perspective. It is not that different from the variety of other values that need to come into alignment in a relationship. Be prepared to stand in the truth and if that truth is that you think promiscuity is fine, ok, but don’t rewrite history when you come to find that the thickest part of the MMP does not share your view.
Surely the moral of this story (other than the obvious don’t sleep around and lie about it) is don’t marry a man who doesn’t respect you.
Don’t even go out with a man who doesn’t respect you. In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.
If he doesn’t respect you for whatever reason, from your number to the fact you don’t think Superman and Wonder Woman work as a couple, then you should end it.
Also is discussing your number an American thing? I don’t know anyone who does. I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.
After all if a promiscuous past was going to be a problem then surely her behaviour would make it obvious?
@Susan, tata
“Most guys have an intuition about who is a slut. Sluts give away who they are through their attitude.”
Susan, option B was in gest.
This is actually it. We just kinda know past a certain point.
And everything Tata(?) said about being modest is correct.
“men ‘inject’ many feel good, bonding chemicals into women during sex (no condoms, obviously). Unprotected oral sex (fellatio) is recommended for relieving depression in women. The men are also relieved, so it’s a win-win (STDs aside)”
I do know that orgasms, with or without condoms (probably moreso with condoms because that puts our minds at ease and we can lay back stressfree and enjoy without fear of pregnancy and some STDs) and also orgasms through cunninlingus, cause all kinds of feel good chemicals to be released in the female brain.
“True, she dishonored him before marriage which is what he has trouble dealing with. Old concept, hard wired. Welcome to Earth.”
Please clarify. My understanding is that the lie was told before marriage AND HE KNEW IT, and still went on to marry her. He has to take responsibility here.
“I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.”
You have to weight people in the scales to find out whether they are found wanting.
“Also is discussing your number an American thing? I don’t know anyone who does. I though everyone operated a “don’t ask, don’t tell” about their sexual history until abuse or disease was discovered.”
I think it also depends on whether you think that pre-marital sex is profoundly evil.
@Tasmin 110
E.g. I’ve known women who act sexually aggressive and quite forward who have well below average N’s and women who never use vulgar language or other suggestive behaviors who have spent years cleaning up.
The problem is that this is an anecdote. It could be an exception to the rule. For example there are couple of high-status married career oriented women who have 3-4 children in big cities. But they are the exception. Most have 1-2 children.
I encountered this fact a couple of months back. We were talking about birth rates and I said that most liberal career women don’t have more than 2 children. A liberal guy came in and said that in his social circle, having 3-4 children is a marker of status and how in his circle “Three is the new two!”.
I then showed how the USA has a 40% and rising illegitimacy rate and how most children are being born by either the lower minority classes or the religious, with both increasingly avoiding legal marriage (the lower classes because it’s a bad financial decision and for the religious because marriage has become liberal thanks to the law). So most babies are being born in the USA to:
- Uneducated
- Poor -> Working Class -> Lower middle class
- Black/Hispanic (with a couple of lower class whites thrown in)
- Somewhat religious
- Out-of-wedlock (e.g. cohabitation, single motherhood)
Oz, I agree with and concede that point. He should NOT have married her, that was a bad mistake on his part. Society and probably friends/church etc. probably pressured him on this telling him that he shouldn’t care but ultimately this was his fault.
Now however he is stuck in a marriage with a woman who to his mind didn’t honor her vows, i.e. she can’t honor him with her body as so many others have been honored with it prior. These thoughts are labeled as intrusive akin I imagine to PTSD so the solution is for him to correct his mistake now rather than wait until children are involved and the level of cash and prizes required for the female become a life sentence and not a temporary prison term. I assume with this that his happiness and mental well being are actually worth something and should not be completely subjected to the whim of his now wife – but likely others will disagree on that point.
“I then showed how the USA has a 40% and rising illegitimacy rate and how most children are being born by either the lower minority classes or the religious, with both increasingly avoiding legal marriage (the lower classes because it’s a bad financial decision and for the religious because marriage has become liberal thanks to the law).”
That will be fixed with my solution of “auto-marriage”.
If you’re co-habitating and have children, congrats!, you are married!
Remo January 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm
“Part of the problem is that the marriage was made under false pretenses.”
” Yes and it is interesting that this concept would be shocking. In the old testament of the bible finding out your wife was not a virgin on your wedding night did not mean a visit to the Oprah show for a little cry in and some counseling, it was a deal breaker and the vows taken were declared null and void along with very severe punishments for the woman. ”
But Remo, Nancy’s husband did not want or expect a virgin. He had a certain number that he considered “acceptable” and Nancy had more than double that. And yet he still MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO MARRY HER.
There is no deception in this marriage.
Yuhonoiu January 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm
” Low number women should get the heck away from big cities, which are mostly liberal and full of liberal men, who marry ambitious career oriented high-N women.
Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).
And no, contrary to liberal hysteria, mantras and misconceptions, they are not “hypocrites”. Sheesh.”
Chuckle.
I misread it. There was no marriage under false pretenses.
Oz – he made the conscious decision to marry her. Does that mean he should be unhappy and miserable forever? Do we require even 1/10 of much of women? Of course not. The way I see it they will divorce in the future likely with her filing when she becomes unhaaaaaapy. Regardless of how others think he should feel he can’t handle it. Okay, he can’t, so he can get out now or pay more in cash and prizes later.
I do not accept the notion that her decision to be slut should carry no long term consequences while his decision to marry should be a life ending ticket to misery. Turn this around. Lets say in 5 years with 2 child support checks, a house, and 401k to plunder, she files for divorce citing his inability to forgive her for this despite knowing about it beforehand. She married *him* knowing he had this problem right? So she shouldn’t be allowed to collect cash and prizes and go chasing after others then? Of course not and no court would think so. So ultimately why should he be forced to hang around until enough prize potential happens and she decides to divorce him (which is inevitable barring some miracle and the risk to him increases every year she gets “accustomed” to a certain kind of lifestyle he’ll be violently forced to pay for).
Oz – correct there was no marriage under false pretenses – he just can’t handle it. So the question really is should he force himself to stay married until his unhappiness translates to her unhappiness and she divorces him? No that may not happen but even marriages under the best of circumstances have a 40% survival rate – what is the chance for these two? Cut the losses (for him) and get out of Dodge.
“Go to less populated places, there are more religious people there and it’s lower class (so less money and focus on careers and consumerism).”
I grew up in a town of less than 3,000…pretty religious. Still had many girls get pregnant in high school plus most of the girls rode the carousel early.
Small towns really aren’t exempt from feminism either.
@Tasmin
My point isn’t about whether guys approve or disapprove of promiscuity. My point is that I don’t see how guys concern with selectivity squares with an absolute N such as 5, 10, or whatever. Sure, you may say that guys are concerned about absolute N for STD reasons, but in terms of selectivity as a predictor of loyalty and “makes me feel special” factor, I think it’s a pretty poor data point. A girl with an N of 5 who only had 10 opportunities to have sex is FAR less selective than a girl with an N of 10 who had 1,000 opportunities to have sex. My point is that the emphasis on selectivity and the emphasis on an N “number” don’t square. It’s like trying to judge how fast a car is by focusing on the color (red cars are faster).
“Oz – he made the conscious decision to marry her. Does that mean he should be unhappy and miserable forever? Do we require even 1/10 of much of women? Of course not. The way I see it they will divorce in the future likely with her filing when she becomes unhaaaaaapy.”
At this point I’d be more concerned about him cheating on her than the other way around. She says herself that her husband is “handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male” and that “women throw themselves at him.”
As long as there are no children, divorce is not such a big deal. If they have kids however, they must sacrifice. There was a time when staying together for the sake of the children was a perfectly valid reason to stay together but for some reason people these days look at you like a ghost if you even so much as hint at it.
“At this point I’d be more concerned about him cheating on her than the other way around. She says herself that her husband is “handsome, muscly, tall, the alpha male” and that “women throw themselves at him.””
If she cheats on him, he just sues the other man for alienation of affection.
Hopefully the other man has deep pockets.
I knew there was a double standard, but wow these male commenters are out of their flippin’ minds. Anyway, it’s good to know just how important that Number is to men.
Lessons here:
For younger girls: Yet another reason to take sex seriously and try to keep that N low. Only become intimate with men who really earn it.
For older girls (who probably already have “high” N): Lie lie lie your butt off. Better yet, avoid lying by saying “not very many” and refuse to give an actual number. If the man insists on hearing your number, then he’s probably an insecure tool you should consider dumping, but you can give him a pre-calculated lie number that you are prepared to stick to for the rest of your life.
For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 (or whatever your ridiculous slut-o-meter is set at). Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell. Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given? Hand jobs? What if the girl was raped, does that count? This topic is just ridiculous.
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
That has been shown repeatedly, and is the entire basis of the US Government’s “clearance” process where they research you, interview your neighbors, your room-mates from college, and poly-graph you to find out if you have ever betrayed a trust, or otherwise done something. Why? Because a person’s past actions predict their future actions. It is as simple as that.
I would have kicked “Nancy” to the curb for being a lying whore, if I was looking for anything long term, or pumped and dumped her if I was looking for fun. I certainly wouldn’t have married her – I probably would have strung her along if she was a dependable lay, but that is all. But then, that is what I do with all of the women I date – which is why I like them short-term.
Of course, I see all American women as fitting into that, mostly because marriage in this country is so nasty as to be not worth it. When you remove marriage from the equation, all that is left is pump and dump, for fun. If you want something more, you have to go to another country which isn’t geared toward raping you financially, and the women are actually feminine. So I assume every American woman is “Nancy” regardless of what she may say, because it’s a lie.
“For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 (or whatever your ridiculous slut-o-meter is set at). Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell. Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given? Hand jobs? What if the girl was raped, does that count? This topic is just ridiculous.”
The questions is whether it’s some sort of emotional hard-wiring in men, so to speak.
You don’t get to vote on human nature.
Finally, had she been honest from the beginning she obviously would have wound up throwing back this big fish. Women lie precisely because they understand very well that most men will move on.
She have been honest fom the very beginning. However, he did learn the number before he married her, and he married her anyway. He has some responsiblity here because he did make an informed decision.
@Zach
Your making the mistake of assuming each N has an equal value as all the others.
Thats not true however, an N=10 is not twice as bad as N=5. The drop in quality is significantly more than double.
If you work it out so that each additional N has a more negative effect than the previous (which tends to jive with reality) than absolute N is important and selectivity becomes significantly less important.
Beyond that, theres no logical reason for a man to consider more than just N as a measure of selectivity. Biology wants it quick and simple, trying to figure out the number of offers and total acceptance rate may make logical sense but biology doesn’t care.
“However, he did learn the number before he married her, and he married her anyway. He has some responsiblity here because he did make an informed decision.”
I know, I misread it.
Hopefully he got married after the infatuation period wore off.
@Daphne
“What if the girl was raped, does that count?”
This is cruel but don’t even go there.
Regardless of N. Mental damage is mental damage.
Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.
VS.
The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.
Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.
@LouiseC 111:
Surely the moral of this story (other than the obvious don’t sleep around and lie about it) is don’t marry a man who doesn’t respect you.
Don’t even go out with a man who doesn’t respect you. In the list of things necessary for a successful relationship I put respect just below love.
+1
taterearl
“Small towns really aren’t exempt from feminism either.”
I agree. Plenty of “republican towns” have high OOW rates. At least in NYC there’s female competition vs the few reasonably attractive women passed around regularly in the country?
Don’t republican girls go off to college, just as much anyway? By the time they’re ready to get married, I’m sure Jesus changed them from “the mistakes of their youth” (all 20+ of them). I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. The fantasy of the untainted little country town is over. Hookup culture is in the media, it’s a part of the general environment; its talked about around dinner tables throughout the US, and several other countries.
“Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.”
I think he’s saying that he only wants lead or copper women.
@Yuhonoiu
My point above was that we have a culture that encourages hyper-sexual imagery, behavior, and lexicon that greatly favors the unrestricted and works to maintain the (false) sense that overt sexuality and sexually “liberated” women are what men want in the long-term. While part of this may be true in that men of course enjoy sexual imagery and rarely pass up no-strings sex, men also hold quite different views when it comes to the spectrum of LTR-Marriage.
One result is that unrestricted women feel a constant pressure- be it peer or media or otherwise, to lower their bar in order to compete for the desirable men and thus end up getting to sex too quickly, too often, etc. The other is that the “truth” in terms of what kind of value men place on intimacy (N or however we define it) is muddled at best, resulting in women projecting an image that not only do men not value in the long run, but they themselves may not actually hold either. All this leads to a growing disconnect between values and behaviors and desired outcomes.
And finally, the cultural message continues to place this disruption at the hands of then men who are attributing value to something that they shouldn’t (due to their failings as men.) The prevalence of this perspective works to (falsely and/or temporarily) relieve women of the price/costs of certain behaviors. But as the stakes become much higher (LTR/Marriage is on the table) they come to find their past choices were well out of alignment with the desires and/or values held by the types of men who are most willing to commit for the long haul.
My examples are anecdotes certainly. But I’ve been with women who have taken the script and come at me with the belief that it is what I want to hear only to find themselves on the short-term ladder (which in my case is actually a trap door. Next.) when they thought they were presenting for the LTR. The fact that approach is even remotely considered over behaviors and demeanor that is representative of what men actually want in a LTR is troubling: those women who actually hold the values and behaviors that are in line with what men want in a wife feel they need to hide those in favor of the imagery and role-playing that is encouraged in the SMP.
There are too many masks being worn and too much of the script writing is being done by gay men or women hating men. The reality is at some point two people have to come together and own up for what they believe, what they want, and what they value. The current SMP is supporting a forum fraught with incongruence and IMO this is why there are far less stories about how “it was just easy” when we got together vs “I am concerned about her past” stories.
And my anecdote was that “I was concerned about her past” because she was selling an image she thought men wanted all while her past was in fact in-line with what I desired, valued. So it wasn’t just N, but rather the incongruence of showing and telling and believing and ultimately trusting. And thats sad because she was looking for a husband and I was looking for a wife and we both lost out.
“For the men: GET REAL. ”
Men live in reality all the time…we know the truth.
Why don’t the women GET REAL…and understand actions have consequences. Women want to live in a lala land of no judgement, you can do anything you want, and still live happily ever after.
Lisa ended up marrying a kind of dorky, big-eared guy, surprising everybody. He turned out to have an enormous amount of ambition and ended up a state senator. They’re still married, have three kids, and still send us a Christmas card. Lisa still looks great, but the funny thing is that she and her husband look like SMP peers now.
I have a second cousin who was the class slut in high school. She’s now on her second millionaire husband. The class slut of DH’s high school days (went to the sister school of his all-boy school) is married to a neurosurgeon. Makes me feel like I should have been more —-er, cough, cough–open to new experiences.
@Lokland
Maybe it’s just me. The only real reason I care about N is as a proxy for selectivity. That’s pretty much it. I wasn’t aware it meant more than that to most other guys. And so in thinking about selectivity, it does make sense (to me at least) to include other factors. Judging how many opportunities a woman has had is not hard. The hotter she is, the more she’s had.
“I have a second cousin who was the class slut in high school. She’s now on her second millionaire husband. The class slut of DH’s high school days (went to the sister school of his all-boy school) is married to a neurosurgeon. Makes me feel like I should have been more —-er, cough, cough–open to new experiences.”
My second-ish cousin married her high school band teacher (hmmmm) and her grandfather, my uncle, was a neurosurgeon.
Although the only thing that does is make me wonder why my parents didn’t try to encourage me to go to med school.
Daphne has a point with this, “For the men: GET REAL. If the average girl loses her virginity at 17 but doesn’t get married until 27… then guess what? She’s probably had a number of lovers in between those years. Even if she is very careful and only puts out for long-term boyfriends, you can bet that number is higher than 5 ”
Most American men do not expect or even desire to marry virgins. Yes, there are some extremely strict orthodox religious people in this country and they comprise an extremely small minority of our population. Everybody else does not aspire to celibacy in adulthood. Ever heard of incels? That means “involuntarily celibate” which is what most 27 year old virgins in America would be.
” Maybe I don’t know the answer, but if a woman doesn’t sleep with me quickly I am going to assume that she doesn’t take me seriously or respect me as a man.
VS.
The solution is for women to treat their sexuality like gold. It’s a rare commodity only given out to those men who demonstrate gold-like value.”
“Cool. If I were a young single woman, which of you should I believe? Coz it’s a lose-lose proposition depending on which one of you I run into.”
J, the solution is to sleep only with men whom you really, really want to. And use condoms.
“Maybe it’s just me. The only real reason I care about N is as a proxy for selectivity. That’s pretty much it.”
Back in my more moral absolutist perfectionism days, I think I thought about N as a proxy for your worth as a human being, male or female.
Daphne – “Best policy: don’t ask, don’t tell.”
I go with the full disclosure policy myself.
“Or, if you want to get nit-picky, does N include the number of b-jobs she’s ever given?”
Yes
“Hand jobs?”
Yes
“What if the girl was raped, does that count?”
Do you really want to go here? I wouldn’t count it as a strike against her, but I’d honestly be concerned for her mental health. If all other signs looked good I probably wouldn’t hold it against her. But, if she struck me as having emotional issues or perhaps she runs pretty loose and fast with her sexuality? Then yes, I would consider it as a primary culprit and DQ her.
And I am “getting real”. I’m 42 and have an N of 4. How? Simple. I only had sex with women I was involved in LTRs with. NO casual. NO ONS. NO FWB. THAT is exactly how I expect a woman to make it into her late 20′s with a low N. Keep it confined to relationships. Now, if she still has a highish N, I’d be concerned that she can’t keep a relationship together for too long and figure she is a risk.
I honestly don’t care if the first age of marriage is going higher. That doesn’t mean we should all be out fucking our way through our circle of acquaintances in the meantime.
Let me ask you something. WHo do you think is a better LTR prospect, a guy that has an N of 25 and only three have been from relationships, or a guy with an N of 5 and every one was in a relationship? Who shows more ability to maintain something long term, the guy with lots of casual hookups, or the guy that has a few LTRs under his belt?
For my money, I’ll take LTR girl any day. Sure, she may lack “sexual experience” (in the slutty ways…) but at least she has already demonstrated the ability to get along with another human in an intimate relationship for awhile. The casual sex girl? All I can say is she should be damn good at using her body for my pleasure. Does that sound like a reason to marry?
Note to all – I totally missed that Nancy’s husband knew BEFORE they married what her true number was. If that is true, then he is a douche for going through with it. Of course, she is at fault for doing so as well knowing he didn’t respect her.
” I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. ”
I was searching for info on Just1z’s claim that performing fellatio can “help relieve depression” in the giver, and this was the first thing I found.
” According to Sex in Christ, the Christian Bible makes several references to oral sex and how it is both accepted and even encouraged in Christianity. Dozens of references to oral sex can be found in Song of Solomon, and it’s intimated in many passages of the Bible that oral sex should be used when you wish to keep yourself pure or chaste, or if you don’t want to have children, but you don’t want to “spill your seed upon the ground.”
http://voices.yahoo.com/health-benefits-oral-sex-6848074.html?cat=5
I agree. Plenty of “republican towns” have high OOW rates. At least in NYC there’s female competition vs the few reasonably attractive women passed around regularly in the country?
Don’t republican girls go off to college, just as much anyway? By the time they’re ready to get married, I’m sure Jesus changed them from “the mistakes of their youth” (all 20+ of them). I don’t even want to imagine how many girls wearing promise rings have anal STDs. The fantasy of the untainted little country town is over. Hookup culture is in the media, it’s a part of the general environment; its talked about around dinner tables throughout the US, and several other countries.
Republican doesn’t equal traditional conservative. Republicans are libertarians. The traditional conservative types are the homeschooling creationists who work part-time and have their own social gatherings. lol
Republicans have always struck me as libertarian.
Traditional conservatives don’t like either USA major parties. lol
Hey, Mrs Walsh, you should put up two polls:
One for what the men’s deal-breaking N is
and
one for what the women’s actual N is.
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