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The Rising Influence of the Alpha Female

There’s been a shift in what men say they want in a wife, with education, intelligence and financial prospects all rising in importance:

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One study examined the social dynamics among 1,700 students aged 11-16 and found that both males and females strategically pursue social dominance and enjoy its benefits.

We argue that overt competitiveness and resultant social dominance in females have been traditionally underrated by biologists and psychologists. Our motivating theoretical perspective suggests that females of high socialdominance are less different from dominant males in terms of behaviors and motivations than is commonly believed, and that these socially dominant females enjoy similar social regard as dominant males do, gender stereotypes notwithstanding.

First, traditional theory:

The lower parental investment of males leaves them free to pursue and compete with other males for additional mates (at great personal risk, but clear reproductive advantage). This male–male competition  :)  has selected males to be physically larger and stronger than females, and to assume more aggressive behaviors, motivations, and social roles (Clutton-Brock,1983).

Across the board the literature suggests that males are more physically aggressive, more status-striving, and more dominance-oriented than females. But some evolutionary biologists question the dominance aspect:

Hrdy ([1981]1999) has long argued that females’ behavior is no less self-interested, competitive, or dominance striving than males and their subtle social politics can be downright diabolical: They inhibit each others’ reproductive cycles, monopolize resources, dominate and sexually manipulate males, and kill each others’ infants. 

Every female who has navigated adolescence knows how true this is and and brutal this process can be, with clear winners and losers.

Although boys and men have long been considered more overtly aggressive than girls and women, and certainly more lethal in their aggression, relational, social , and indirect aggression appear to be the modus operendi of girls. As foreseen by Hrdy, girls are known to effectively employ gossip, rumor spreading, interpersonal betrayal, and social exclusion as means to harm the social standing of peers. Although the relationships between girls’ aggression and several conceptions of social status have been investigated, its relationship to social dominance remains relatively unexplored.

The authors distinguish between prosocial and coercive strategies for acquiring social dominance.

“Coercive strategies gain access to resources directly and agonistically such as by taking, threatening, or assaulting others and as such are aligned with traditional approaches to social dominance.”

“Prosocial strategies gain access to resources indirectly via positive behaviors such as reciprocity and cooperation. Because these strategies can be used alone or in combination, females consequently have a measurable route to social dominance.”

Individuals may use either or a combination of these strategies to acquire social dominance.

The study found that males were more likely to be coercive and female were more likely to be prosocial, but as many females as males use a bi-strategic approach to achieve social dominance. Boys tended to describe themselves as rather agentic in their methods, while girls described themselves as more relational. However, the students of both sexes who reported having the most social dominance in their peer groups were those who employed both coercive and prosocial strategies.

Prosocial kids were the most well liked, and coercive kids the least, but girls who used both strategies were the most sought after as friends. Neither sex was perceived as being more socially dominant than the other.

Highly socially dominant groups (e.g., prosocial and bi-strategic controllers) were among the most liked, the most desired for affiliation, and viewed as the most popular.

What does it mean when one is high on instrumental goals, the need to be recognized for accomplishments, and interpersonal aggression?

We believe this is a “rather a powerful intermingling of “getting along”and “getting ahead” central to human social competence.

When compared to other girls, the two types of girls who stand out with high scores on coercive control (i.e., bi-strategic and coercive) rate themselves as the highest on extrinsic motivations to pursue relationships (popularity, competition) relative to other girls.

This makes sense from an evo standpoint:

If intimate and exclusive relationships are resources to females then, as with resource acquisition and defense in general, females should exhibit high levels of competition for obtaining high quality alliances, and then defend these alliances strenuously after they have been won. Indeed, girls worry about loyalty and betrayal more so than boys and experience significant distress upon being targetedwith social tactics.

Furthermore, despite the fact that girls“value equity and intimacy,” they are inclined to give up almost anything – including their best friend – to increase their status with other females.

Ultimately, being well liked and being popular are no longer the same thing (if they ever were). It is the combination of prosocial and coercive tactics that yields the greatest social influence:

Emotion decoding skills, prosociality, and alliance building are not viewed as strategies of subordinance, but rather as legitimate and effective strategies of resource control in group living species. In this respect, bi-strategic males andfemales have it all.

In summary, there were three distinct findings:

  1. The most dominant members of a social group are both male and female.
  2. Means other than overt aggression are employed to attain and defend these positions (i.e., relational aggression and prosocial behavior).
  3. Both high dominance males and females attract similar social attention and draw others’ social aspirations (especially females).

The study offers an evolutionary perspective, not a cultural one. However, in my view the cultural influences should not be overlooked. High achieving or “alpha” females are more common today, and less likely to assume a subordinate role. Male preferences have shifted significantly in the last 70 years as well.

By fifth grade every kid knows that popular kids “like” each other, and that continues through college. If the popular females are as socially dominant as the popular males, then bi-strategic types are likely to share social dominance and status throughout their lives. This may explain why “mean girls” are often so popular with boys; their social dominance extends to both sexes.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • JP

    Ambition and industriousness declined.

    Why?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ambition and industriousness declined.

      Why?

      I wondered that too and I almost noted it, but it just declined one place in 70 years. That may be because other traits gained in importance. Or perhaps industriousness meant something very different in 1939, like canning and doing the laundry.

  • Jason773

    The most interesting thing from that is how the chastity decline will be taken by promiscuous women to say “look look, men don’t really care.”

    I would posit that it was ranked as low as 10 in 1939 because then it was practically assumed that you would be marrying a woman with 2 or less previous sexual partners, and most likely a virgin. Today, chastity is at the bottom because I am assuming that the literal meaning was taken, suggesting wanting a virgin. It’s true, 99% of men today neither need nor expect a virgin, but practically all men I know have a comfortable number in their mind, as discussed is the previous thread.

    This list should provide some fodder…

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    How much of what these men are saying is just for the sake of social acceptance? Saying “I want a nice, submissive girl” is no way to endear yourself to modern women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How much of what these men are saying is just for the sake of social acceptance?

      It’s an annual anonymous survey. There are no modern women reading their individual responses.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Also, just looking at the list, I don’t quite make out how this leads to the rising influence of the alpha female. If you take 2008’s top half, only two of the nine are alpha female attributes IMO. They would be education/intelligence and socialibility, but even education/intelligence seems to be misleading because ambition/industriousness, good financial prospect and similar education background are all at the bottom half of the list.

    To me it seems like many beta female traits are still crowding the top of the list, in a slightly different order.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Also, just looking at the list, I don’t quite make out how this leads to the rising influence of the alpha female.

      That’s not the point of the chart. It’s simply a interesting example of how male preferences have changed. Clearly, men are more likely today to select for intelligence, education, and professional earnings prospects. That means that alpha females are less likely to be perceived as masculine, overbearing, etc. As female dominance has increased, the male desire for it, or at least tolerance of it, has also increased.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Also complicating this is that this is the New York Times (practically guardians of blue pill thought.) You think they’ll publish anything implying that feminism is incorrect? Also, all these highly educated (but older) women can’t find husbands.

    Then again, there is the Proverbs 31 woman. But she’s not a ballbuster.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    That’s not the point of the chart. It’s simply a interesting example of how male preferences have changed. Clearly, men are more likely today to select for intelligence, education, and professional earnings prospects. That means that alpha females are less likely to be perceived as masculine, overbearing, etc. As female dominance has increased, the male desire for it, or at least tolerance of it, has also increased.

    In other words, the typical beta male. No wonder he’s dateless; he supplicates too much.

    However, selecting for intelligence and education is a good IDE. You don’t want dumb kids, after all. Also, keep in mind that these are traits looked for in a wife, not a sex partner. No one will get hard from your degree.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    “good IDE”

    I meant “good idea.” Stupid AutoCorrect.

  • Maggie

    ” Ultimately, being well liked and being popular are no longer the same thing (if they ever were)”

    I remember reading studies about this that showed that in the past the popular students in high school were the most well liked, but now the popular students are more feared than liked. Girls today seem a lot tougher and more ruthless than when I was in school.

    “They inhibit each others’ reproductive cycles, monopolize resources, dominate and sexually manipulate males, and kill each others’ infants. “

    This sounds like sociopathic behavior. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of women killing each other’s infants, only mentally disturbed women killing their own children

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    That’s not the point of the chart. It’s simply a interesting example of how male preferences have changed. Clearly, men are more likely today to select for intelligence, education, and professional earnings prospects. That means that alpha females are less likely to be perceived as masculine, overbearing, etc. As female dominance has increased, the male desire for it, or at least tolerance of it, has also increased.

    Okay, I buy some of that, but I think you were correct will “tolerate” and not “desire”. And frankly, most guys today don’t want to select for education and earning prospects; they simply need to now. It’s almost mandatory to have a two income household today unless the man is in a professional or STEM field.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Okay, I buy some of that, but I think you were correct will “tolerate” and not “desire”. And frankly, most guys today don’t want to select for education and earning prospects; they simply need to now. It’s almost mandatory to have a two income household today unless the man is in a professional or STEM field.

      I agree with you. This is part of the cultural shift I referred to.

  • JP

    @Maggie:

    “I remember reading studies about this that showed that in the past the popular students in high school were the most well liked, but now the popular students are more feared than liked. Girls today seem a lot tougher and more ruthless than when I was in school.

    “They inhibit each others’ reproductive cycles, monopolize resources, dominate and sexually manipulate males, and kill each others’ infants. “

    This sounds like sociopathic behavior. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of women killing each other’s infants, only mentally disturbed women killing their own children”

    Welcome to the world of the Dark Feminine.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Girls today seem a lot tougher and more ruthless than when I was in school.

    You can thank feminism for that. If a girl is taught that she deserves special treatment regardless of behavior, she will not moderate her behavior. Also, women are not taught to respect men the way men are exhorted to respect women.

    Somehow, the results of that survey aren’t all that unusual, given what we know of the culture. I just feel sorry for the future divorcés.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    There is no natural rise of the alpha female. The aggressiveness isn’t safe without the protection of the state. Now that the state protects them from reprisal from a dominant male for bad or aggressive behavior, they have freedom to behave this way. Of course men want a woman with these aggressive traits, they like to be on the winning or stronger side. When men are involved with these women, they never imagine that she will turn them on them.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “In addition, there’s been a shift in what men say they want in a wife, with education, intelligence and financial prospects all rising in importance.”

    I wonder if that’s simply because the chances of finding a woman without those things is becoming increasingly unlikely and does not fit the “PC” climate. Anyone who says they’re not looking for it immediately disqualifies himself from a mating chance.

    Much like a prior discussion about sluts. If every woman on the planet became a slut with high N, guys would pretty much stop talking about looking for chaste women…

    .. none to be found.

    Environment breeds shifting rationales.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I wonder if that’s simply because the chances of finding a woman without those things is becoming increasingly unlikely

      Is it? I hardly think all women are alpha females either by inclination or training. I think we’re talking about the most socially dominant women here.

      Perhaps they are the ones most likely to remain unmarried though – perhaps social dominant males ultimately seek more docile companions? I don’t know.

      Environment breeds shifting rationales.

      Yes, and as Jason pointed out, the real need for two incomes in many cases.

  • JQ

    @Susan in re the chart:

    I think the two things that are most interesting are the big gainers/losers and crossovers. One the “gainers” side, it looks like Education/Intelligence, Sociability, Good Looks are driving much of the declines. Probably the most interesting crossover (from my cheap seat) is ambition/industriousness. It’s almost a fixed point despite three attributes from below it jumping above it meaning it’s actually gained in relative importance over time. Similarly, Good Financial Prospect jumped five with only three things that used to be above it now below it. So it seems to have gained “big” too.

    It would be interesting to look at the probability that if attribute A is preferred to attribute B at the earlier time it is still preferred today. Doing a little linear regression by visual impression, it look like the probability would be pretty high.

    Of course, this is an ordinal vice cardinal scale, so I’m not really sure how important even a shift of two really might be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      I agree, those were the trends I found most significant. It’s not surprising given how the role of women in society has changed since 1939, and I think it’s right that men select from among the women available. However, I don’t think they “settle” – I believe that attraction triggers are malleable, and the culture can definitely play a large role.

  • mr. wavevector

    How much of what these men are saying is just for the sake of social acceptance?

    It’s an annual anonymous survey. There are no modern women reading their individual responses.

    True, but most people don’t know what they really want. They respond as the culture has trained them to, and society trains individuals by granting or denying social acceptance based on their response. The men taking this survey may not have been immediately concerned with social acceptance from women, but rather were reflecting years of conditioning based on that social acceptance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wavevector

      The men taking this survey may not have been immediately concerned with social acceptance from women, but rather were reflecting years of conditioning based on that social acceptance.

      That is definitely possible. That’s always a factor with hypothetical questions. It might be more telling to ask people who they married. However, just like the polls that ask Americans if the country is going in the right direction, or who they intend to vote for, we generally find value is measuring attitudes. I think that’s all we can really conclude from this chart.

  • Lotte

    Well, soon it’ll be socially acceptable for a man to “marry up”.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    There is no natural rise of the alpha female. The aggressiveness isn’t safe without the protection of the state.

    If the lights went out tomorrow, the edifice of the alpha female would crumble and become extinct over night. Civilization and technology are the only things that allow this artificial ‘equality’ to occur.

    Now i’m not saying it’s all bad. Men derive great benefits from industrialization, technology and modern convenience as well..

    but none of that has helped wipe away a mans need for women like it has helped wipe away a woman’s need for men.

    That’s why hypergamy is off the charts in this era.

  • Joe

    When I look at the chart describing female traits that have declined in importance, particularly, the top-most, it tells me that their opposite has increased.

    So what’s the opposite of “dependable character”, “emotional stability” and “pleasing disposition?” That would be a perfect description of a bitch. Given the acceptance in popular culture right now (see “The B in Apartment 23″), it’s no surprise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So what’s the opposite of “dependable character”, “emotional stability” and “pleasing disposition?” That would be a perfect description of a bitch. Given the acceptance in popular culture right now (see “The B in Apartment 23″), it’s no surprise.

      Good catch! That is an astute observation I hadn’t thought of, but it ties into my point about the most socially dominant, i.e. bitchy girls being the most popular (and getting the most male attention).

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Holy crap, i just took a good look at that chart.

    It seems in line with the rise of the narcissist. Everything that would make a good, pleasant, happy homemaker, stay at home mother, dropped while elitist, superficial, snobbery, social and status mongering traits all rose.

    People are following the Jersey Shore paradigm. The path of least resistance is for men to simply follow the women who are granting the easier access.

    Snookie. (with the exception of education)

    Since the tradcon path to masculinity is dead, all that’s left is to embrace the traits that make for being a good socialite on a reality tv show. It fits the Kardashians well.

    This is what women are becoming thanks to social media and attention whoring, delaying motherhood for career, and living up the nightlife party hardy 20’s.

    If this is the group men are most interested in getting with because that’s all that’s in the viewfinder… we do as we do. Adapt.

    Even if it’s not what we really want, given the choice between not getting anything vs. getting women who pride themselves on the traits in the green vs. the red…

    mutual attraction/love. that’s code for “i want hawt”

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Looking over the high school days of my kids, so recently passed, it seemed that one of the most important functions of the dominant girls’ clique was to mediate access to the most desirable [most dominant] boys. Late bloomers would be recruited and others would be ruthlessly culled, but the group was remarkably stable.

    There was a Black/Hispanic apex group, and a White/Asian apex group, with more intersocialising on the part of the girls than of the guys.

    The high-dominance boys seemed to police themselves when it came to Official Girlfriends ®, always selecting from among the HD girls. Flings were allowed outside the fold, but never a genuine status-generating relationship. Boys who attempted it (as did one HD boy with my daughter) were edged gently back into compliance by their peers.

    I always wondered why that was so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      Interesting, that’s pretty much what the study found as well, and it also describes college social groups. It seems that there is almost a sort of pact among the HD kids – they stick together. Of course, this is the basis on several film premises, e.g. Carrie.

  • joemomma35

    I don’t care what this study on blue pill men says. I’ll take femininity, cooking, and homemaking skills over sarcasm and snark any day of the week. I don’t know how “good looks” has ever been anything but #1 on this list. This study is a joke and the men are kidding themselves.

    Also, alpha males have and always will be strongly desired by females. A female being “alpha” is not instinctively sexy to men, even if a man can learn to appreciate some of those personality characteristics.

    And like others have pointed out, this whole “alpha female” phenomenon is only doable because of this largely false ideology known as feminism in our society. Susan, I’ve applauded quite a few of your viewpoints in the past, but overall you really have put a very poor, “fem-centric” (Am I using that term right, Rollo?) perspective on red pill ideas.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @joemomma35

      Susan, I’ve applauded quite a few of your viewpoints in the past, but overall you really have put a very poor, “fem-centric” (Am I using that term right, Rollo?) perspective on red pill ideas.

      Haha, way to kill the messenger. You can live in a bubble if you like, I’m interested in what different people have to say. The study’s description of the social structure grades 5-10 is precisely what my kids experienced, and that wasn’t long ago.

      No one said that a female being alpha is instinctively sexy to men. It has simply been observed that dominant males have dominant female counterparts in social settings, and they tend to socialize together. Perhaps the attraction is “learned” or “nurture” as opposed to “nature.” It’s an interesting look at how attraction triggers can and do shift.

  • http://davidvs.net/ davidvs

    > That means that alpha females are less likely to be perceived
    > as masculine, overbearing, etc. As female dominance has
    > increased, the male desire for it, or at least tolerance of it, has also increased.

    I disagree. The new #1 item is “mutual attraction, love”. There is nothing alpha in #1 through #9.
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/12-coontz-gfx-popup.png

    The chart is saying that IF a man is already in love with a woman, and if she is dependable, mature, intelligent, of pleasing disposition, sociable, healthy, good looking, and wanting to have a family, THEN it helps if she is industrious, neat, earns money, and cooks. Hardly news to me.

  • http://davidvs.net/ davidvs

    I also notice that the four highest ranked items are what men worried about divorce would rank highest. In that regard, the list answers what beta males who have given up on meeting chaste women consider the “most secure” marriageable traits.

  • JP

    @M3:

    “but none of that has helped wipe away a mans need for women like it has helped wipe away a woman’s need for men.”

    I don’t think you understand the human condition.

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob

    The more women move into a field, the more men move out, and the more the quality in that field goes down. Look at education.

    “Alpha” females = incompetence. So there are no Alpha females, if you define it as competence.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    “His identity as the rebel willing to buck authority gives him notoriety, but these men are rare.”

    But the number of men self-identifying as such is larger, maybe by a factor of 10.

  • Apollyon

    “So there are no Alpha females, if you define it as competence.”

    True, but it’s not competence in terms of productivity but in terms of the social ‘system’. Here, the Alpha female is competent.

    Since when do women have to be competent to be employed in the modern society? Women will strive for what matters (i.e. where the rewards are: social. Material success will come either through the state, affirmative action or a man. This will ‘take care of itself’. Status, however, requires work and skill).

  • INTJ

    The lower parental investment of males leaves them free to pursue and compete with other males for additional mates (at great personal risk, but clear reproductive advantage). This male–male competition

    This is the point I’ve been making. The intra-male competition isn’t for male-conferred status. It’s for additional female mates (which is a direct reflection of female-conferred status).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The intra-male competition isn’t for male-conferred status. It’s for additional female mates (which is a direct reflection of female-conferred status).

      Well duh! Of course it’s for female mates! We are reproducing machines! The point is, he must win the male-male competition to get the mates. And we are wired to seek evidence of that victory so we know we’re getting the real deal. We do not confer attraction until we know the guy really has beaten out the other males. It can be contextual – AMOG – including hipster musicians. :P

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @Susan

    What would possibly be of any advantage for the boys? In all accounts the HD girls, while attractive, were not always the most attractive girls in the school. One of my daughter’s best friends was very beautiful and from a wealthy family.

    I would have thought the lunkheads HD boys would make a beeline to her, but they all seemed quite cowed by the continual campaign waged against her by the HD girls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      I would have thought the lunkheads HD boys would make a beeline to her, but they all seemed quite cowed by the continual campaign waged against her by the HD girls.

      Are the HD girls promiscuous? If so, then the HD boy pack might not tolerate any guys going AWOL for fear of breaking the pact.

  • JP

    I had no idea what was happening, social structure-wise in school.

    I just knew that I had absolutely no idea what was happening.

    And in any event, in hindsight, I think I was essentially assigned a group of friends by my father (the school superintendent) and that was it.

  • JP

    Then I was assigned to date the daughter of the school board president.

    That did not go well at all.

  • Thrasymachus

    It would be most interesting to see if the attitudes described in this survey are actually reflected in either the real-life choices that men make regarding marriage or the success of those marriages. I haven’t looked at the data in a while, but IIRC some of them are while others are not. For example, men are increasingly likely to marry women with similar class and educational backgrounds. On the other hand, we know that marriages in which the wife earns more than the husband are, on average, less happy and less stable than those in which the reverse occurs. In general, however, the men with the most options (star athletes are my preferred example) do not appear to select wives on the basis of their perceived “alpha” qualities.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Thras

      On the other hand, we know that marriages in which the wife earns more than the husband are, on average, less happy and less stable than those in which the reverse occurs.

      Agreed, that is where the line will be drawn.

      In general, however, the men with the most options (star athletes are my preferred example) do not appear to select wives on the basis of their perceived “alpha” qualities.

      How educated and intelligent are star athletes? I wonder how mate choice differs between say, the NBA and the NFL.

  • JP

    All I know is that the most important thing to me was intelligence and the least important thing was cooking/cleaning.

  • joemomma35

    Susan, you’re arguing two different definitions of attraction.

    What is most attractive to a man on a primal level is a young girl with big boobs and a nice ass (or whatever his niche is). Women will always prefer the classic alpha male qualities – height, good looks, deep voice, socially dominant, wealthy, etc. Those basic attraction triggers are never going to shift, and that because these attraction cues are wired into the most primitive parts of our brains. Socialization will not change that.

    These “attractive qualities” that you are pointing out, I suppose, can change. But that’s only because our society sucks. I blame feminism. By default most men you are going to ask in these surveys are blue-pill, so many of them are going to answer based off of what they think they want, which can change because of socialization.

    Personally I believe for “good looks” to be #8 as opposed to #1, or maybe #2 after mutual attraction, shows how much of a joke this survey is. And I don’t care what its conclusion is, I want a woman who is hot, relatively chaste, and has that sexy feminine charm. I value intelligence in a woman, but only because I am educated. I would not want a woman significantly more educated than me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Personally I believe for “good looks” to be #8 as opposed to #1, or maybe #2 after mutual attraction, shows how much of a joke this survey is.

      The survey itself is not a joke, but a highly reliable and time-tested instrument. It has been given for 70 years and is a fascinating reflection of tastes changing over time.

      You may believe the respondents are jokers because they do not share your values.

  • Erik L

    How do you gals inhibit each other’s reproductive cycles? Sounds like witchcraft.

  • joemomma35

    Actually I’d like to hear more about that as well. Probably through invoking stress.

  • GudEnuf

    Bi-strategic women are also the most likely to have rape fantasies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Bi-strategic women are also the most likely to have rape fantasies.

      Care to elaborate?

  • JP

    @JM35

    “Personally I believe for “good looks” to be #8 as opposed to #1, or maybe #2 after mutual attraction, shows how much of a joke this survey is.”

    Well, it moved up from 14.

    I think “good looks” must mean “significantly above and beyond the minimum required for attraction.”

  • Jonny

    The rankings of the list seem to be an unconscious decision to avoid marriage. If men get what they wish, they are much less likely to marry. This is based on the current marriage rates that continue to show decline of first marriages. Men are getting more educated women and more sexually experience women. Then they are playing the field and not marrying.

    If you want more marriages, men should look for the traits in the 1939 list.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “@Thras

    On the other hand, we know that marriages in which the wife earns more than the husband are, on average, less happy and less stable than those in which the reverse occurs.

    Agreed, that is where the line will be drawn.”

    But good financial prospect is now #12 from #17.

    Does that just mean “a woman who earns close, but not over, the amount of money that I make?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Does that just mean “a woman who earns close, but not over, the amount of money that I make?”

      Yes, I think it does mean that, ideally. Men are hypogamous.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Well duh! Of course it’s for female mates! We are reproducing machines! The point is, he must win the male-male competition to get the mates. And we are wired to seek evidence of that victory so we know we’re getting the real deal. We do not confer attraction until we know the guy really has beaten out the other males. It can be contextual – AMOG – including hipster musicians.

    This I agree with. Males compete with each other – but females set the terms of the competition. Thus, the status is conferred by females, and it isn’t male-conferred status that females are attracted to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      Thus, the status is conferred by females, and it isn’t male-conferred status that females are attracted to.

      You are still not getting it. Here is the sequence:

      Male-male competition ——> Winner accrues social dominance, i.e. status among males ——> Female observes status dynamics to deduce winner, rewards high status male with attraction.

      Frats and varsity athletes are two great examples of this. Neither frat members nor athletes derive their initial status from females. The status they have earned in competition with other males enables them to be noticed by females.

      The high status male may choose to be a player or a boyfriend – his status will not change. If he chooses to be a player, his status will be reinforced, providing he seduces top females.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: “Care to elaborate?”

    I’ve posted this link before, but here is a study also done by Patricia Hawley. (pdf)

    http://www.people.ku.edu/~phawley/Publications/HawleyHensley_JSR_%202009.pdf

    From page 13:

    Our predictions were borne out in Study 1; bi-strategic women had the highest preference scores for the submissive fantasy theme coupled
    with the lowest preference for the domination theme
    [She means a theme in which the fantasist is dominant]. This difference leaves bi-strategic women with the greatest differential in preference for these themes (especially relative to the subordinate non-controllers).

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ joemomma35

    Regarding the survey, upthread I said that this represents what men are looking for in a wife, not a mere sex partner. Conditions will necessarily be different from the most basic, primal ones.

    The point isn’t that men and women are somehow exactly alike, but that men are now looking for something different in a wife (than was desired in 1939), partly out of need, and partly out of cultural programming. Also, the most socially dominant, whether male or female, employ both coercion and relational aggression, even though the sexes tend to prefer one strategy over the other and acquire power for different purposes.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @ Susan – #52

    The HD girls exhibited the kind of behavior you mentioned as being standard for couples of that age in our generations – non-reputation-polluting “relationship sex” for their Boyfriends ®, whereas my daughter’s friend had a sluttier side to her. She had slept with a couple of older “men” [out of high school] and maybe that put the younger boys off of her.

    There are so many variables, but yeah, there is definitely an “Alpha Female” constellation of traits and whereas it may not be immediately “attractive” to men as Alpha Male traits are to females, but they are formidable and you ignore them at your own peril. I wonder if it continues after high school. I have seen marriages ended when “Mean Girl”-type divorcees use both “prosocial” and “coercive” tactics on vulnerable married women.

    Per #53 –

    For a peek at raw Black female hypergamy in the pursuit of professional athletes and other Black celebrities, go over to http://www.balleralert.com

    It ain’t pretty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have seen marriages ended when “Mean Girl”-type divorcees use both “prosocial” and “coercive” tactics on vulnerable married women.

      A guy who was blindsided by divorce just wrote to me with a story along these lines. I think it’s pathetic that a mature woman would be vulnerable to such tactics – extended adolescence is definitely not just for males!

      An occasional night out with the girls – fine. Something sedate and private. This habitual running around with divorcees? Bad, bad precedent. I think men have every right to put their foot down on this. (And same goes for women whose husbands are out tomcatting around.)

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Susan wrote:

    gudEnuf wrote:

    Bi-strategic women are also the most likely to have rape fantasies.

    Care to elaborate?

    He is correct insomuch that the more sexually unrestricted a woman is and the higher her self-esteem rating, the more likely she is to have forced sex fantasies. See Bivona et al., “Women’s Rape Fantasies: An Emprical Evaluation of the Major Explanations,” Arch. Sex. Behav. 41:1107-1119 (2012), DOI: 10.1007/s10508-012-9934-6.

    I use ‘forced sex’ because the majority of women have forced sex fantasies (52 %) but fewer have rape fantasies (32 %) even though the two are, legally speaking, the same thing. I assume that forced sex gets into having a sexually dominant male partner.

    However, I don’t know of any papers that explicitly examines the correlation between bisexuality and forced sex fantasies. It would make perfect sense though, and I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if there was a correlation, just because they’re both correlated to sexual openness (i.e. erotiphilia).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mr. Nervous Toes

      He is correct insomuch that the more sexually unrestricted a woman is and the higher her self-esteem rating, the more likely she is to have forced sex fantasies.

      Interesting. Another indicator that perhaps alpha females are unrestricted?

  • joemomma35

    “The survey itself is not a joke, but a highly reliable and time-tested instrument. It has been given for 70 years and is a fascinating reflection of tastes changing over time.

    You may believe the respondents are jokers because they do not share your values.”

    That’s obviously the idea, though I wouldn’t quite word it that way. As I said, by default the vast majority of those in this survey are blue-pill men. Swallowing the red pill means that you are automatically more enlightened then probably 90% of the male population. If you’re a male, you really need to figure out how to navigate life your own way at this point.

    I know there’s a lot to respond to here but you kind of did ignore my overall point. There’s a big difference between “attraction” and “attractive traits.” Attraction is emotionally hard-wired and will not change. Attractive traits can change based off of circumstance. And because of feminism and globalization, circumstances are changing pretty quickly. I bet if you did the same poll on women, resources would have fallen on their list of important traits since many women can make their own dough now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @joemomma

      Attraction is emotionally hard-wired and will not change.

      This is false. Attraction is contextual and very malleable. I met with my MBA women’s group this evening, where we discussed Dan Ariely’s book Predictably Irrational. He gives a fascinating example about attraction. If guy A and guy B both show up at a bar, some women will prefer A and some B, assuming they are similarly attractive. However, if guy A brings his less attractive friend, guy A-, guy A suddenly gets the majority of female attention. I found this fascinating – it’s the inverse of preselection. Next time you go out, bring a less attractive friend, aka a decoy. You’ll look better by comparison and more women will be attracted to you.

      Another good example is very closed populations. If you put a girl and a guy on a desert island with no hope of rescue, real mutual attraction is almost inevitable. When teenagers meet at summer camp, they size up the very limited population of the opposite sex and make their choices based on what’s available. The relationships or summer romances that result are just as intense as any others, even if the options initially felt very limited.

      There is a great deal of work that has been done on this.

      I bet if you did the same poll on women, resources would have fallen on their list of important traits since many women can make their own dough now.

      I’m sure you’re right. This is why the idea of women marrying beta providers when they really want alphas makes no sense. That woman is far better off having serial relationships or flings with alphas and supporting herself.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Probably important to consider what things were like in 1939, at the time of the first survey. The Great Depression was still very much in progress, and the free world faced threats from both Fascism and Communism.

    Makes sense that “dependable character” and “emotional stability” would be ranked high.

  • JP

    @Mule:

    ” I have seen marriages ended when “Mean Girl”-type divorcees use both “prosocial” and “coercive” tactics on vulnerable married women.”

    And behold, I present you with alienation of affection.

    Because it *is* a tort in some cases.

  • Johnycomelately

    I’ll have to check my girly magazine and find out how many naked pictures of theses Alpha females I can find, difficult task but for the sakes of science I am willing to endure.

    Then again it might be easier to flip through that fifth rag known as the Times.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I’ve heard undergrad guys call this “sugar” and “the taste” to describe a hot power-female with a strong sex drive, appetite for hook-ups, and “manlike” career ambitions (that will ideally result in more discretionary $$$ for the couple and fewer kids/responsibilities imposed on the man).

    For whatever reason, a lot of these girls seem to have fully embraced aspects of hip-hop culture. The stereotype alpha girl might be this blonde cheerleader-looking type who drives a convertible BMW or Mini-Cooper
    around while listening to aggressive gangsta rap and talking to a friend about how she plans to “get her fuck on” that weekend. As I’ve noted before, she’ll scold a female friend by saying ” stop being such a chick.”.

  • JP

    @BB:

    “For whatever reason, a lot of these girls seem to have fully embraced aspects of hip-hop culture. ”

    The reason is that human stupidity knows no bounds.

    Like I tell people…you can’t fix stupid.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    Sounds like these are high-T girls. Roissy would often write about “manjawed lawyercunts” and such, and their utter lack of femininity (moreso than the average woman.)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    CED, I’ve heard a few of those terms for them! I’m actually sympathetic towards these girls, but then again I’m not exactly playing with a full deck. They do seem to be high T and probably quite hard to deal with in LTRs. pros and cons, I suppose.

    Re: dominance fantasies, etc. One result of this masculinization is that the level of male dominance/badass/mastery projection necessary to generate tingles in such females is probably very high. You have to be a bit theatrical these days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re: dominance fantasies, etc. One result of this masculinization is that the level of male dominance/badass/mastery projection necessary to generate tingles in such females is probably very high. You have to be a bit theatrical these days.

      Just as women have upped the ante with slutty dressing so that there’s nowhere more to go, men have upped the ante with over the top dominance. Where will this end? At some point, will we hit a reset button or will we channel Caligula?

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    So what do all these dominant females think about this?

  • INTJ

    @ Mr. Nervous Toes

    I use ‘forced sex’ because the majority of women have forced sex fantasies (52 %) but fewer have rape fantasies (32 %) even though the two are, legally speaking, the same thing. I assume that forced sex gets into having a sexually dominant male partner.

    I was wondering what the distinction might be – and then I realized a possible distinction. Without loss of generality, I’ll refer to the forcing/raping partner as male. In forced sex, the male doesn’t care about consent or the lack thereof and forces sex on the female. In rape, the male does not have consent. Thus, a man can force sex without raping – if the woman gives consent even though the man never asked for consent.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sounds like dating a “dominant” women automatically entails dating a woman who excels and gets off on passive-aggressive power games.

    Ummmm…

  • Abbot

    Here is Rosin’s view on this

    “I think it’s really easy to tune into the heartbreak of a 35-year-old woman or man for whom a good relationship has been elusive. I think no matter what we say we all want to love and be loved. But if you think of the hookup culture as something that happens in college the fact is most college graduates end up married and in stable and relatively happy marriages. So I don’t think there is much evidence that hookup culture leads to loneliness. One other thing: I don’t “endorse” it. I just get tired of hearing how it destroys women. Joan Didion once complained about certain strains of the feminist movement perpetuating a vision of women as “creatures too ‘tender’ for the abrasiveness of daily life, too fragile for the streets … too ‘sensitive’ for the difficulties and ambiguities of adult life.”
    So, yes, there is heartbreak but there is also a lot women gain from their independence. “

  • Abbot

    Basically, all those items that declined are in shorter supply.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    They may be in shorter status, but I find it mind-boggling men do not value things like not-being-a-slut and knows-how-to-cook.

    Vastly, VASTLY more important for wife than can-drink-beer-with-the-guys or went-to-Harvard.

    Stupid, stupid boys.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    And I don’t really want to hear about “society tells us…”

    Stupid.
    Stupid.
    Boys.

    You are a man, you think for yourself and decide what YOU value. The idea of listening to an “alpha female” or “television” on finding my WIFE is like taking economic advice from the Soviet Union.

  • INTJ

    For me the key requirements are, in order:
    Dependable character
    Emotional stability, maturity
    Desire for home, children
    Good looks
    Pleasing disposition
    Chastity

    In addition, these are preferred but not required:
    Mutual attraction, love
    Education, intelligence
    Good cook, housekeeper
    Good health
    Refinement, neatness

    Everything else is optional

  • JP

    @ADBG

    “You are a man, you think for yourself and decide what YOU value.”

    I don’t value cooking.

    As long as I have coffee, I’m good.

    And I can make my own coffee.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Is it? I hardly think all women are alpha females either by inclination or training. I think we’re talking about the most socially dominant women here.

    Most women are not alpha females, but throughout their teens and 20’s they are conditioned to behave like one through moxie, tnkgrl attitude and peer pressure. Simply a bi-product of having to act and behave like men to ‘compete in a mans world’ in both education and employment. Whether in actuallity or just mimickery, a majority of women present the alpha vibe simply as a reflection of their upper status. The herd commands its.

    Hence why i say it feels increasingly unlikely. Urban/city dwelling women shun those red traits like the plague and play up the green traits like they were performed by Mother Theresa.

    Perhaps they are the ones most likely to remain unmarried though – perhaps social dominant males ultimately seek more docile companions? I don’t know.

    EXACTLY. These are the ones (the ones that don’t wake up fast enough in their mid 20’s to see the lie for what it was) are the ones that are writing the man up articles, wondering why the socially dominant males are wifing up the more docile companions whilst ignoring the flamboyant awesomeness of these arrogant socialites. (aside from the odd pump n dump)

  • http://spootville.blogspot.com/ Tim

    I was wondering why the results were so far off from what mine are. Education over looks, HA!

    Then I read who was surveyed: “students aged 11-16″

    That’s quite a stretch to claim that “alpha” traits are attractive in women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tim

      I was wondering why the results were so far off from what mine are. Education over looks, HA!

      Then I read who was surveyed: “students aged 11-16″

      That’s quite a stretch to claim that “alpha” traits are attractive in women.

      No you misunderstand. The chart is from an article on marriage from the New York Times. It has nothing to do with the study of social dominance among kids. Nice try though.

  • INTJ

    The problem with a “smart girl” is on display in this article by such a woman:
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/41887069/Counterpoint_Smart_Chicks_Date_Smart_Guys

    I’ll give you a personal example to back that up. I went on a fantastic, fun first date recently. After dinner, we started talking about what he looked for in a woman. And he said, “I know it when I see it.” And I said, “like obscenity?” And then there were the crickets. “Huh?” he said. And, that, my smart NetNet friends, is when the date was over for me.

    I didn’t get what she was talking about either, until I realized that she had mis-remembered the reference, “I know it when I see it” reference, which was actually about pornography, not obscenity.

  • Ion

    “For whatever reason, a lot of these girls seem to have fully embraced aspects of hip-hop culture.”

    Hip hop is filled with sex and badassedness (Think about that song ” the baddess bitch”, and whichever corporate tool wrote it). It’s fun to be bad, so long as there’s no real consequences.

    “On the other hand, we know that marriages in which the wife earns more than the husband are, on average, less happy and less stable than those in which the reverse occurs. In general, however, the men with the most options (star athletes are my preferred example) do not appear to select wives on the basis of their perceived “alpha” qualities”

    Yeah, and while marriages are miserable when the husband earns less, marriages are way more miserable when an alpha male is married to anyone. Beta breadwinner does seem to = stable marriage, and longterm happiness/success for both partners.

  • Ramble

    We have covered this before and I will say it again: as America has become more expensive and more European in it’s politics and social structures (where did you go to school? what cherry internship did you get from going there? who do you know? etc.) men have gravitated towards wanting good earners who they would like to fuck.

    And for those guys that would prefer NOT to marry a man with tits there is very little in our pop culture to help you out. What, you want some Stepford wife who exists solely to pop out your babies?! God! What a pig. Luckily, we have shows like The Office that take idiots like you, and Dwight Schrute down.

  • Ramble

    I wonder how mate choice differs between say, the NBA and the NFL.

    You would do better to compare the NFL to the NFL. We basically have IQ scores for almost every player in the NFL via the Wonderlic test that they take at, or before, the Draft combine.

    In general, Centers (the guys that snap the ball to the QBs) are the smartest, with Tackles and QBs coming next.

    Wide Recievers and Cornerbacks tend to be the idiots of the bunch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ramble I have missed you. Good to have you back.

      Re athletes, my guess is that they mate assortatively. I’m sure Gisele Bundchen is very smart. The idiots no doubt are happy with bimbos.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ADBG

    They may be in shorter status, but I find it mind-boggling men do not value things like not-being-a-slut and knows-how-to-cook.

    Stupid, stupid boys.

    My gut tells me they are not answering in a manner of what they really want, rather what they expect they require to appreciate in women today if they want to entertain any idea of a relationship with one.

    Point blank ask a guy on the street if he would like his future partner to be a stay at home wife.

    In his heart, he’d love it.. but in his mind, in the society that surrounds him and the women in his office remind him everyday.. he’s a misogynistic prick who wants to oppress women and keep his wife barefoot and pregnant and set women back 100 years if he dares to even suggest he wants a woman who will do that.

  • Ramble

    We do not confer attraction until we know the guy really has beaten out the other males.

    Make sure to qualify statements like this. As you well know, the sneaky fuckers, back-door men and other “betas” did fairly well in the mating game. And they were not succeeding based off of the respect of other men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As you well know, the sneaky fuckers, back-door men and other “betas” did fairly well in the mating game. And they were not succeeding based off of the respect of other men.

      +1000 Well done! This is the first compelling argument against my claim I have heard! You are so right, those sneaky fuckers cuckolded like mad, haha.

      I’ll need to think this over, but this may be a fatal shot.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    Consider this as well: a lot of hip-hop is sexually aggressive. Women like sexually aggressive men.

    @ M3

    Oh yes. Yes x1000. Screw what I’m “supposed” to like, I want a feminine, agreeable lady who isn’t fat. I want her to be smart, just so I can talk to her about interesting things. I want a girl who reciprocates.

    Yeah. I might as well be talking about unicorns. But I keep trying. I’m bound to succeed eventually.

  • JP

    “Make sure to qualify statements like this. As you well know, the sneaky fuckers, back-door men and other “betas” did fairly well in the mating game. And they were not succeeding based off of the respect of other men.”

    I think the point is that you just have to have beaten the other men in some female-approved competition.

    For example, if you got into Harvard, you would have “beaten the other men” because you defeated everyone who didn’t get into Harvard, male and female.

    So, you get status even though you might have isolated yourself in a computer lab eating cheesy poofs, playing video games, and listening to ABBA during your time at Harvard.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Random comments just to subscribe to this thread.

    Purple Monkey Dishwasher.

    Mustard. It’s what’s for dinner.

    Kangaroo. The other white meat.

  • JP

    “Frats and varsity athletes are two great examples of this. Neither frat members nor athletes derive their initial status from females. The status they have earned in competition with other males enables them to be noticed by females.”

    In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea to view fraternities as worldly dens of iniquity and profound moral corruption.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Male-male competition ——> Winner accrues social dominance, i.e. status among males ——> Female observes status dynamics to deduce winner, rewards high status male with attraction.”

    You forgot the sideways route.
    Male loses at normal competition, creates his own competition that becomes extremely socially important and succeeds in becoming better than all other males because he built the game.

    Ie. Zuckerberg.

    The men who try and fail are omegas.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      You forgot the sideways route.
      Male loses at normal competition, creates his own competition that becomes extremely socially important and succeeds in becoming better than all other males because he built the game.

      Another excellent point. Zuckerberg isn’t the only one, don’t a lot of those guys drop out of college and invent stuff in their garage?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “We do not confer attraction until we know the guy really has beaten out the other males. It can be contextual – AMOG – including hipster musicians. ”

    This is of course not consistent with a monogamous society in which 95% of individuals manage to get married.

    But as you wish, carry on.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “You forgot the sideways route.
    Male loses at normal competition, creates his own competition that becomes extremely socially important and succeeds in becoming better than all other males because he built the game.

    Ie. Zuckerberg.”

    He went to Harvard.

    He won before he won again.

  • Lokland

    @JP

    Good point.

  • Lokland

    Though calling go to Harvard a win as compared to face book is kinda like winning the Superbowl over your high school championship (and I now realize Americans are bat shit nuts for highschool football, bad example).

  • JP

    @Susan:

    ” Where will this end? At some point, will we hit a reset button or will we channel Caligula?”

    The next Second Turning/Spiritual Awakening/1960’s Redo Thingy will change things again.

    So, if we assume the Fourth Turning started in 2008….then add 40 years as a guess, and the culture will be shifting again circa 2050.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Another excellent point. Zuckerberg isn’t the only one, don’t a lot of those guys drop out of college and invent stuff in their garage?”

    Only because the potential massive infusion of capital is there at the end of the rainbow.

    And that era is now ending.

    http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/thebearslairview?art_id=10747

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    Re. BB’s story about blond cheerleader/sorority types with a high t aggressive persona….

    All I can say is “lawdamercy,” that gives a totally new meaning to Laura Edwards’ Southern Women’s history text: Scarlet Doesn’t Live Here Anymore!

    Yes, indeed, I’m sure their great-great granddaddies who fought for the Confederacy would have been so proud!

    They give new meaning to the song “I need a thug…”

    (Howls of laughter…)

    Sigh, it almost makes me long for the days when people were howling about nice suburban boys listening to gangsta rap…now it is the young women…!

    If you’re going to be into black music, at least go high class, r&b, ie., old school Maxwell, Will Downing, Kem, etc…

    Sigh…

    I was really struck that the top five in the 1930s: character; stability; pleasing disposition; mutual attraction/love; good health…It seems to reflect a culture where marriages were arranged in some fashion. I can almost envision it; young men were looking for these values. They were not looking first for how she looks, whether he is attracted and in love. The first questions had to do with whether she was a decent woman he could work with. The rest would follow…A good deal for restricted women and especially the plain jane types who fit that mold. I agree with someone who mentioned that this sounds like it was reflective of its time, the 1930s, a society in grave crisis: the Depression, WWII.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      It seems to reflect a culture where marriages were arranged in some fashion. I can almost envision it; young men were looking for these values. They were not looking first for how she looks, whether he is attracted and in love. The first questions had to do with whether she was a decent woman he could work with

      I’m currently reading Wolf Hall, and it’s very interesting to see how marriages are arranged. Thomas Cromwell tells his nephew Richard who he has chosen for him. Richard asks, “Does she know?” Cromwell says, “Yes, I told her. She likes you.” Richard mulls this over and says, “Hmmm, Katie. Yes, I like Katie. I can work with that.” The idea that either party would have any choice is not even considered. In this case, the parties were pleased, though they had no knowledge of one another except for what they looked like.

      The “soulmate love match” has wreaked havoc on society, especially since our culture is so promiscuous. Even if you find that person, you both will by subjected to temptations along the way.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    continued…while to day, the top 5: mutual attraction, dependable character, emotional stability, education, then a pleasing disposition….They are looking for the attractive, grounded and well educated woman who will who will be more like an executive in running the household. It bodes well for the serious-minded lawyer/doctor types….

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    You guys are overcomplexifying with your excessive check-lists for female mate selection. This is exactly the same thing we oft criticize modern women for, particularly in the field of online dating.

    This is what you need:
    1.) A woman you find attractive (sexually desirable).
    2.) A woman you can respect.
    3.) A woman who loves herself.

    Anything else is gravy.

  • Mike C

    He is correct insomuch that the more sexually unrestricted a woman is and the ***higher*** her self-esteem rating, the more likely she is to have forced sex fantasies. See Bivona et al., “Women’s Rape Fantasies: An Emprical Evaluation of the Major Explanations,” Arch. Sex. Behav. 41:1107-1119 (2012), DOI: 10.1007/s10508-012-9934-6.

    Higher??? That seems very counterintuitive….I would have expected a higher likelihood with lower self-esteem. What is the explanation?

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    @Susan:

    “Just as women have upped the ante with slutty dressing so that there’s nowhere more to go, men have upped the ante with over the top dominance. Where will this end? At some point, will we hit a reset button or will we channel Caligula?”

    It’s instructive to take a trip to the zoo. Make a good fangy yawn in front of the monkeys, and all the little monkeys will display-behavior back. Mister Big Monkey, on the other hand, isn’t impressed.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Another good example is very closed populations. If you put a girl and a guy on a desert island with no hope of rescue, real mutual attraction is almost inevitable. When teenagers meet at summer camp, they size up the very limited population of the opposite sex and make their choices based on what’s available. The relationships or summer romances that result are just as intense as any others, even if the options initially felt very limited.

    Don’t forget Stockholm syndrome.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    MikeC wrote:
    Higher??? That seems very counterintuitive….I would have expected a higher likelihood with lower self-esteem. What is the explanation?

    Well my anecdotal personal experience says that the girls with low self-esteem need more slow love-making, while the high self-esteem girls like the rough kinky sex. Not sure what your personal experience is, but it sure correlates well with my life experience.

  • Remo

    Ultimately there were three distinct findings:

    1. The most dominant members of a social group are both male and female.
    2. Means other than overt aggression are employed to attain and defend these positions (i.e., relational aggression and prosocial behavior).
    3. Both high dominance males and females attract similar social attention and draw others’ social aspirations (especially females).

    I would add a 4th… High value females *rely* on high and medium value males to attain and keep their position. This only makes sense since especially in a small group, even the most omega, delta, zeta or whatever Greek letter of the alphabet passes for “worthless piece of sh*t” this week, guy is capable of dominating the most alpha of females physically.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Remo

      I would add a 4th… High value females *rely* on high and medium value males to attain and keep their position.

      Good observation, I think you’re right. In fact, their aggression is often directed at potential replacements in the hierarchy.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    Further ideas on my thoughts in 109….

    It seems I remember BB might have mentioned some time ago that he lives somewhere in the South.

    In “Scarlet Doesn’t Live Here Anymore,” I was imagining that these young women reject traditional ideas of femininity; they don’t want to be “chicks,” so no more “Southern Belle,” because they are now thugged out women. And the men who go for them are the ones who are thinking that they “need a thug.”

    I wonder, though, just how far these women dare take it. Do they dare take it to the point of dating/sleeping with the men on campus who are more likely to approach a legitimate “thug” identity, ie., the black men on campus who are athletes or in black male fraternities…?

    Some might, I suppose, others wouldn’t have the guts; they have a lot more invested in being a “Southern Belle” than they would let on….

    Rather amusing to think about.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan,

    if you know of a woman who is just as silly as me, please let me know.

    I mean it.

  • chris

    “What would possibly be of any advantage for the boys? In all accounts the HD girls, while attractive, were not always the most attractive girls in the school. One of my daughter’s best friends was very beautiful and from a wealthy family.

    I would have thought the lunkheads HD boys would make a beeline to her, but they all seemed quite cowed by the continual campaign waged against her by the HD girls.”

    Girls mature about 2-3 years earlier than boys. Asking why 16 girls can run rings in terms of social organisation around 16 year old boys is like asking why 18-19 years old boys can run rings in terms of social organisation around 16 year old boys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girls mature about 2-3 years earlier than boys.

      Good point. The girls are also craftier because they are better at pushing people’s emotional buttons, i.e. finding the vulnerability and surreptitiously going in for the kill.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    INTJ…pretty interesting story about the woman and the “I know it when I see it” story.

    Even if she’d remembered the phrase properly, it would have been ridiculous of her to disqualify the man based on his ignorance of this particular catch-phrase of American jurisprudence. I’m sure that I, or any of 100 people here, could easily come up with equally or much more important things that SHE wouldn’t know.

    How did we accumulate such a large set of people who are so eager to advertise their own smartness that they really advertise their own limitations?

  • chris

    “I’m sure you’re right. This is why the idea of women marrying beta providers when they really want alphas makes no sense. That woman is far better off having serial relationships or flings with alphas and supporting herself.”

    Thus changing the reproductive selection pressures from agreeable, industrious, socio-economically productive men, to testosterone charged world-wreckers. Ain’t the future gonna be grand!

  • chris

    “Attraction is emotionally hard-wired and will not change.

    This is false. Attraction is contextual and very malleable. I met with my MBA women’s group this evening, where we discussed Dan Ariely’s book Predictably Irrational. He gives a fascinating example about attraction. If guy A and guy B both show up at a bar, some women will prefer A and some B, assuming they are similarly attractive. However, if guy A brings his less attractive friend, guy A-, guy A suddenly gets the majority of female attention. I found this fascinating – it’s the inverse of preselection. Next time you go out, bring a less attractive friend, aka a decoy. You’ll look better by comparison and more women will be attracted to you.”

    These two statements don’t necessarily contradict one another. Assuming of course by attraction being hardwired and not changing he means the rules regarding attraction and what makes one attractive are hardwired and don’t change. In which case the example you provided is merely a instance of manipulating a subset of the variables in the incredibly complex equation of what makes one attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      These two statements don’t necessarily contradict one another. Assuming of course by attraction being hardwired and not changing he means the rules regarding attraction and what makes one attractive are hardwired and don’t change.

      The rules do not change – men want clear skin, bright eyes, lustrous hair, a .7 WHR, muscle tone, strong white teeth, large breasts. What changes is that people adapt their expectations if they want to mate. If I can’t have Candice Swanepoel, who can I have? Maybe I’m ok with a chubby girl, after all I’m overweight myself. Or maybe she is not beautiful but she has a lovely smile and warm eyes. Mating requires those tradeoffs, but the good news is we do not require perfection to be attracted.

  • Maggie

    I’m reading Wolf Hall right now too and I thought it was sweet how the couples in these quickly-arranged marriages seem so content. Maybe the parents were wise to assortative mating through experience and could bring together the couples who were well suited to each other.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maggie

      Are you loving Wolf Hall? My husband didn’t enjoy it, he didn’t care for Cromwell. I adore him, he’s a brilliantly drawn character! I cannot wait to read the sequel.

      In general I have been struck by how tentative all the relationships are. Children and spouses died every summer between morning and night! I suspect that was instrumental in making marriage a more pragmatic than romantic choice.

  • Lokland

    On the mean smb 6-7S vs that pretty 8-9 who is the outlier and why the HD(?) males support them.

    One 9 vs. multiple 6-7s.
    Gain in quality by choosing the INDIVIDUAL 9 and rejecting the GROUP of popular girls in terms of reproductive potential is the equivalent of a guy cutting of his left testicle.

    Just saying that it seems fairly obvious that a group of lower quality women can effectively sequester higher status males from higher status females by simply providing those men with what they want…variety.

  • Lokland

    And of course, the reason to keep that 9 out of the group is that if she were in she would sit at the top whilst the lower quality girls would be relegated to sideline lays.

    Duh much.

    This doesn’t even have to manifest as actual sex, our biology compels us to try an attain the best reproductive potential, typically by whatever means necessary.

  • Sai

    I’m honestly surprised good looks used to be that low. (How to get it up for Elephant Lady?)
    I’m also surprised (concerned) men are less interested in good teeth.
    Bless the men for being open and direct in their competitiveness. I hate the sneaky underhanded tactics.

    @JP
    “Only because the potential massive infusion of capital is there at the end of the rainbow.

    And that era is now ending.”

    OT -What are you going to do after things get really crappy? Ted D has told us his plan, but I never asked you.

  • Maggie

    @Susan

    I am liking “Wolf Hall” although I’m still not yet sure if I can see Cromwell as sympathetic or Thomas More as mercenary. The book does seem well-researched and so much better written than the usual “lite” stuff like “The Other Boleyn Girl.”

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    I’m honestly surprised good looks used to be that low. (How to get it up for Elephant Lady?)

    Elephant Ladies were almost non-existent back then. Today, looks are a much bigger problem because such a high percentage of girls are downright obese.

  • JP

    @Sai:

    “OT -What are you going to do after things get really crappy? Ted D has told us his plan, but I never asked you.”

    No plan.

    The only thinking I’m doing right now is “when do I short this stock market to make my profits for 2013?”

  • JP

    @David:

    “How did we accumulate such a large set of people who are so eager to advertise their own smartness that they really advertise their own limitations?”

    I think they were always there.

    The internet just makes them more obvious.

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    OT -What are you going to do after things get really crappy? Ted D has told us his plan, but I never asked you.

    Don’t know about JP, but I’ll be enjoying my rise in SMV. :D

  • SayWhaat

    Today, looks are a much bigger problem because such a high percentage of girls are downright obese.

    You could say the same for boys.

    Assortive mating FTW! :)

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    You could say the same for boys.

    Yes, but that’s irrelevant. Girls don’t care about looks very much, and weight is only one of many factors in girls’ evaluations of male looks.

    If girls wanted thin guys as much as guys want thin girls, I’d be cleaning up with them… :D

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3
    Today, looks are a much bigger problem because such a high percentage of girls are downright obese.

    You could say the same for boys.

    Assortive mating FTW! :)

    My only issue here is that *proper* assortive mating isn’t happening because while men get instant feedback that they’re ugly, or delayed feedback that they’re ugly via “you’re nice, lets just be friends’… women who are ugly can post their ugly mugs on facebook and get 10,000 likes, 5,000 retweets all coming with the standard ‘you look awesome’/’so beautiful’/’sexay’ comments by beta herbs looking for pity sex, other ugly girls banding together for hope/emotional support, and high rank smv non-ugly women who want to keep the ugly’s from working to fix themselves, in effect sabotaging the ugly from looking within her proper smv range to mate with by keeping her deluded, thus ensuring the high smv girl has no competition for acquiring alpha.

    It’s just a theory of mine tho…

    [the use of the word ugly was not meant to impugn or call anyone here ugly, we all know everyone in the world is a beautiful person, carry on my fluffy bunnies, carry on!]

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Girls don’t care about looks very much,

    BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Sure they don’t….

  • Ion

    “This is false. Attraction is contextual and very malleable. ”

    Not to mention that it is nearly impossible to believe that attraction cannot be controlled while not also possessing a victim mentality. You can absolutely control who you’re attracted to when you’re realistic about your actual choices. The alternative is to whine about not having choices.

    “In which case the example you provided is merely a instance of manipulating a subset of the variables in the incredibly complex equation of what makes one attractive.”

    Sort of, I like how Susan put it the best, that mating requires tradeoffs. People just aren’t “comfortable” with the tradeoffs.

    Without a doubt one man’s “long lustrous hair” standard match the popularity of Demi Moore in the 90s with her Harry Potter haircut, or Marilyn Monroe. Femininity is socialized, but beauty doesn’t change. If the only two professions were pottery making and hunting, that’s what women would prefer. If the only choice were a dirty, non-bathing/non-shampoo using girl fresh out of a cave who never owned a toothbrush, what would humans prefer? Perhaps we need to strip away our socialization to get to the “real deal” of what would’ve been desirable. Whatever separates men from women (some cases boobs, other cases hips, other cases small torso, some cases different ass shape, other cases muscle, some cases plump lips), etc., but in general, I don’t think we deviate too much from Susan’s list at 127.

    I do not necessarily believe the “attraction hardwired” though the more I read here, the more it’s subject to change.

  • Ion

    “Without a doubt one man’s “long lustrous hair” standard match the popularity of Demi Moore in the 90s with her Harry Potter haircut, or Marilyn Monroe. ”

    Grrrr…..Meant to word that TOTALLY differently. Should be: “Today’s ‘long lustrous hair’ standard does not explain the popularity of Demi Moore in the 90s with her Harry Potter haircut, or Marilyn Monroe. “

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Sure they don’t….

    ^^^
    i didn’t mean that with malice. i meant don’t delude yourself into believing the old canard that women don’t take looks into account.

    For attraction, it matters.

    As per the conversation earlier, i woman can *bury* her need for looks in the pursuit of a hypergamous intent (marry 99 year old shrivled dick worth 10.1 billion dollars and wait for the heart attack).. no attraction, pure provisioning.

    But when it comes to actual attraction, looks play heavily. If you want her to fall in love, you have to be to some degree visually appealing. Granted, what used to be considered appealing got hyper skewed due in no small part to mass media consumption of reality TV crap and Twilight vampires and wolves.

    And women’s perceptions of what is appealing in mens features has gotten skewed immensely.

    Otherwise the “Women find 80% of men on OKCupid unattractive” study wouldn’t have crossed the world and back again a gazillion times.

    Super looks + super asshole may suck for the long term crowd, but the looks will always keep the door open to attraction that being average+nice will never have. (not without game anyways)

    But you are right.. it’s only one of the 467 requirements on the list. But it’s pretty close to the top and a big early disqualifier for many.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As a general rule, I would say that women will discount looks to the extent of one or two SMV points, at most. If she’s a 9, she’ll go for the hilarious 7 or basketball star 7. If he’s kinda boring, he’ll have to be a 9.

      Some women will readily engage in the form of prostitution known as mating with a man one is not attracted to for his money or power.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    does not explain the popularity of Demi Moore in the 90s with her Harry Potter haircut,

    Who was Demi popular with that haircut?

    Not the men. Maybe the fembots and their mangina tag alongs. 90’s was rife with feminists trying to modify cultures acceptance of women with androgynous features.

    Can’t speak for Monroe. Never liked her. Some men enjoy staring at novelty. But if i had to chose between Jane Average with long hair and Marylin with short… I’m taking Jane home.

  • JP

    @Ion:

    “You can absolutely control who you’re attracted to when you’re realistic about your actual choices.”

    I still don’t get this, having tried to force attraction and basically fail at it.

    It doesn’t work because you end up physically disgusted by the other person.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    @Susan and Maggie re. arranged marriages; those are important points you raise regarding how that might have been done.

    I was thinking, though, of an arranged marriage mindset that might have been brought into the choice of a marital partner, without explicit or tacit arrangements by parents and other elders. This could have meant that one chose after looking around to find the best among those possessing certaom core values and abilities. Looks were minimal, as though marriage was about thinking beyond the “mere tingles;” it was about laying the foundation for a long term partnership.

  • SayWhaat

    Yes, but that’s irrelevant. Girls don’t care about looks very much, and weight is only one of many factors in girls’ evaluations of male looks.

    Not so fast. Like others have said, it’s one of many factors. But I don’t think many girls would dip below 2-3 SMV points, unless there was a serious male scarcity (a la NYU).

    If girls wanted thin guys as much as guys want thin girls, I’d be cleaning up with them…

    Oh, INTJ…somehow, I don’t think being “thin” is your problem. :)

  • SayWhaat

    @ PVW:

    This interesting article came out in the NYT re: arranged marriages. I think there might be a growing endorsement of “approved” marriages, where children are free to select their spouse, only with deeper parental involvement.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/fashion/weddings/parental-involvement-can-help-in-choosing-marriage-partners-experts-say.html?pagewanted=all

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    JP…people eager to advertise their own smartness:

    “I think they were always there.
    The internet just makes them more obvious.”

    The Internet does make them more obvious, but I don’t think that’s the whole story. 30 years ago, would anyone have thought it was a good idea to market a vehicle as a “Smart Car?” Would a group of atheists have thought it was good public relations to rebrand themselves as “Smarts”?

  • http://bradtalk.blogspot.com BradA

    You put too much trust in surveys Susan. People say lots of things, but many times don’t know what they really want.

    A good example of this is software development. You can survey the target user base and end up with something no one wants to use.

    Blind or not, these surveys are still going to produce what people are conditioned to answer.

    This is just like the last thread I stuck my head into. Anytime that “looks” are that low on the chart someone is lying, whether they realize it or not.

    And SayWhaat, women are not driven by looks as much as men for such connections. Look around a bit more. Looks matter, but not to the same extent they do with men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You put too much trust in surveys Susan. People say lots of things, but many times don’t know what they really want.

      Sure, but it still measures attitudes. If you look at the survey over the past 70 years, the traits did shift gradually and progressively in a way that reflects changes in society. There is consistency across the time period in that sense. Personally, I think it makes perfect sense that men would answer more frequently today that they want a wife who can make a good salary. That means a college education.

      I can’t explain men’s attitudes re looks. I do know that most guys here say that 80% of women pass the boner test. If that’s true, then prioritizing looks over other important traits hardly seems necessary. But I’m not a guy. *Shrugs*

  • JP

    @David:

    “30 years ago, would anyone have thought it was a good idea to market a vehicle as a “Smart Car?” Would a group of atheists have thought it was good public relations to rebrand themselves as “Smarts”?”

    I don’t know.

    I was in elementary school at the time.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    +1000 Well done! This is the first compelling argument against my claim I have heard! You are so right, those sneaky fuckers cuckolded like mad, haha.

    I’ll need to think this over, but this may be a fatal shot.

    Not really. If a guy manages to outdo another guy by being sneaky and risk prone enough to try and bed someone, it means that the status of the primary partner is lower whether for not being around mating guarding and/or she has a new man displaying dominance (he beat her husband and any other man that desired her but wouldn’t try and bed her).
    You need to think on hypergamy clusters or spectrum not in a fixed thing and varied depending on the woman in question.
    I imagine that if a woman found that the hunters were the hot ones and suddenly a new tribe won out because of their crop planting skills and she wouldn’t be able to adopt the new paradigm she wouldn’t have a mate and bear kids, hence extinction and we know nature doesn’t like to waste perfectly good eggs because they are hard to produce as it is and they need 9 months of inner care plus the care after the child is born.
    Think of it as the boy band theory: In Backstreet Boys Howie D was the most popular among the girls, but Nick, AJ, Kevin and Bryan had their own share of attention from other girls how had other modifiers to their hypergamy.
    So even if there is a top man, the other ones can have other attributes to attract the females. Variety is important in genetics and nature, specially since we were Nomadic at the very beginning, the Alpha hunter of one day could had been totally outshone by the cropper or the shepherd the day after, and men were aware of this. The one with the most success at any given moment is the man, hence why The pack is constantly testing their members they know they can get a weak link or a traitor at any moment, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      Thanks for the insight on those sneaky betas, that makes a lot of sense. I had another idea based on the reading I did about those successful maters. According to the article, the most dominant, strongest men would depart to hunt the mastodon or whatever. These trips were long and arduous. They would leave a couple of men behind to guard the women and children, men they could afford to do without, i.e. betas. During the period where the hunters were gone, these betas kept the women company, helped with the children, etc. And they were the original cuckolders. Perhaps it’s a case of “love the one you’re with,” which is just another way of saying that attraction is malleable.

  • https://en.gravatar/pioneervalleywoman pvw

    @SayWhaat:

    I think there might be a growing endorsement of “approved” marriages, where children are free to select their spouse, only with deeper parental involvement.

    Me: I saw the article as well; thanks for reminding me of a new language to delineate this trend as a softer version of the typical arranged type.

  • JP

    @pvw:

    “Me: I saw the article as well; thanks for reminding me of a new language to delineate this trend as a softer version of the typical arranged type.”

    Having been involved in what amounts to arranged dating, it was clear to me that my parents didn’t understand me in the slightest.

  • Russ in Texas

    Wow.
    80% of women don’t even pass my “I enjoy looking at them” test….

  • Sassy6519

    As a general rule, I would say that women will discount looks to the extent of one or two SMV points, at most. If she’s a 9, she’ll go for the hilarious 7 or basketball star 7. If he’s kinda boring, he’ll have to be a 9.

    Some women will readily engage in the form of prostitution known as mating with a man one is not attracted to for his money or power.

    Agreed.

  • JP

    @Russ:

    “Wow.
    80% of women don’t even pass my “I enjoy looking at them” test….”

    Yeah. That 80% is wrong.

  • SayWhaat

    And SayWhaat, women are not driven by looks as much as men for such connections. Look around a bit more. Looks matter, but not to the same extent they do with men.

    Are you new here? That’s not what I was arguing against at all. I merely said that looks are still important for women. The 3 who thinks he can pull a 9 with the help of Game is living on a different planet.

  • Jonny

    “Some women will readily engage in the form of prostitution known as mating with a man one is not attracted to for his money or power.”

    I’m glad you admitted it. That’s the few times it was said by a woman.

    “Personally, I think it makes perfect sense that men would answer more frequently today that they want a wife who can make a good salary. That means a college education.”

    I don’t know if this is a defense mechanism to protect him from an adverse divorce. If she makes good money, it is more likely she won’t demand alimony and she will share in child support although statistics show that few women actually do pay child support especially when the man has full child custody.

    On the other hand, a career isn’t a prerequiste for marriage, but no man wants to initially marry a slacker. She must at least work when she is single. It is a bonus, if she continues to work after marriage and having the babies. In the best scenario, the married couple adapts to one income after starting a family.

  • http://bradtalk.blogspot.com BradA

    > Sure, but it still measures attitudes.

    True, but attitudes do not necessarily correspond to actions.

    Though I suppose if hooking up is the goal, then the attitudes might be good. Not as likely for connecting for the true long run however.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Not so fast. Like others have said, it’s one of many factors. But I don’t think many girls would dip below 2-3 SMV points, unless there was a serious male scarcity (a la NYU).

    And for the average female (a 5.5), that allows her to dip as low as ~3. Not really a problem for her.

    Oh, INTJ…somehow, I don’t think being “thin” is your problem.

    No, but it isn’t helping much either. Unlike with my thin female counterparts.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I can’t explain men’s attitudes re looks. I do know that most guys here say that 80% of women pass the boner test. If that’s true, then prioritizing looks over other important traits hardly seems necessary. But I’m not a guy. *Shrugs*

    Closer to ~60% for me. Can’t speak for others.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “Some women will readily engage in the form of prostitution known as mating with a man one is not attracted to for his money or power.”

    Anna Nicole Smith was a prostitute? Perish the thought.

    :D

  • Rich

    Ironically almost every trait that has dropped in importance has also become harder to find in today’s average female.

  • SayWhaat

    No, but it isn’t helping much either. Unlike with my thin female counterparts.

    You really can’t compare yourself to women in this regard. Apples and oranges.

  • SayWhaat

    And for the average female (a 5.5), that allows her to dip as low as ~3. Not really a problem for her.

    Ha! I suppose it is less of a problem for women on the higher end of the scale.

  • Russ in Texas

    INTJ: the ladies must be truly beautiful where you live.

  • Ion

    JP

    “I still don’t get this, having tried to force attraction and basically fail at it.

    It doesn’t work because you end up physically disgusted by the other person.”

    Yeah, I’ve definitely been there. I still refuse to believe we’re all just helpless victims in what we find attractive.

    Looks matter to men and women, and with media, they matter more than they did for women even more. The average person can “lose” attraction after 2 or 3 years and dip into a sexless marriage. What else can explain the fact that people are losing their attraction for their significant other, when just 50 years ago, they remained attracted/happily married? Choice. If it’s not choice, what is it?

    You may find Demi Moore to look like a butch lesbian feminist, or a Sinead O’Connor reject circa her early 90s buzz cut, but I feel like I remember seeing her on the cover of mens magazines back in the day. I admit I could’ve been too young to remember.

    Long hair was a symbol of hippies and political rebellion at one point, and poor hygiene if I’m sadly mistaken? So men would’ve associated short curled hair with style, femininity, elegance and sexiness. If media tells us to desire high T women, or the 6’1 douchebag, or even the high estrogen metrosexual guy who might be gay it’s hard to change. We’re neither helpless robots to attraction, nor are we ever going to be attracted to human whales with bad skin. There’s a medium that we can control.

    Enough, I’m just rambling.

  • Mike43

    @INTJ, re: comment 83.

    I went over to the piece and read what she had to say. Nicole did not understand that she misrepresented the quote. Like you mentioned, I know it when I see it – Pornography, is a quote from a well known 1st amendment case tried at the Supreme Court.

    She was right when she said the date was over. It’s because the guy correctly figured out she was an idiot with an over valued self esteem.

    As a result, it’s pretty funny that she is so clueless. And that she is probably not as smart as she thinks she is……

  • JP

    @Ion:

    “The average person can “lose” attraction after 2 or 3 years and dip into a sexless marriage. What else can explain the fact that people are losing their attraction for their significant other, when just 50 years ago, they remained attracted/happily married? Choice. If it’s not choice, what is it?”

    Who knows?

    I knew enough to marry someone who I thought was attractive and enough to break up with someone to whom I was not attracted.

  • JP

    @Mike43:

    That article is from CNBC (known more affectionately as CNBS).

    It’s basically a 24 hour infomercial, so I’m not shocked as to the quality of that particular article.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    During the period where the hunters were gone, these betas kept the women company, helped with the children, etc. And they were the original cuckolders. Perhaps it’s a case of “love the one you’re with,” which is just another way of saying that attraction is malleable.

    Nature wants us to reproduce during the reproductive years we are bound to find someone attractive, our brains are very good at adapting in order to survive. Is a bit like food even if you hate peas if you end up in a desert island only with peas to eat you will find yourself eating them and even enjoying them at some point, few will starve to death no to eat peas.
    Shakespeare also had this idea on Much Ado About Nothing making the leads fall in love in spite of themselves, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Shakespeare also had this idea on Much Ado About Nothing making the leads fall in love in spite of themselves, YMMV.

      True, he played around with that concept quite a bit in his plays. He even did some gender bending, haha.

  • Passer_By

    @sai

    “I’m honestly surprised good looks used to be that low.”

    Rating “good looks” that low seems fundamentally incompatable with rating “mutual attraction” really high. So, I assume they took “good looks” to mean a level of head turning beauty well beyond the minimum “good looks” to sustain attraction. If so, I would agree with that. Much better to be with a 7 who has all those other things than a 9 who is non-nurturing, frigid bitch.

  • HanSolo

    @Passer_By

    I agree with your interpretation of good looks meaning just that as opposed to just looks. Most people are average and are fine enough with average looks in their partner.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    While I do encounter MANY girls that are attractive, I realize that I may be living in a “bubble.” I certainly don’t consider “good-looking” to be such a rare attribute that I must go out of my way to find it.

    I can basically throw a rock and find an attractive girl. Would be hard to miss. I do not see the need to find the “hottest” girl around. Sufficiently attractive and good character IS a rare combination, especially when coupled with “not crazy.”

    Oh, and sex….I like sex, etc

    On the other hand, some of my other guy friends ARE obsessed with finding the hottest…they tell me that I can do better quite frequently.

    But a lot of guys aren’t like that, too.

  • Ion

    Saywhaat

    “The 3 who thinks he can pull a 9 with the help of Game is living on a different planet.”

    And a 3 who thinks he can pull a 6 is in the same boat, for the most part. Especially when looks do matter to fertile, healthy, 18-30 year old women who are a 3 and above. “Looks don’t matter” is only when it’s combined with resources, proof of social status, or a negotiation on looks when it comes to lower SMV women. Most women I’ve met want a guy who is a 6 or 7, but will gladly take a 5 if he has excellent qualities (same as most men). Not sure why some men keep pussyfooting around this reality.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion and SayWhaat

    No one, except for perhaps shysterous game marketers, are saying that a man with looks of 3 can pull a woman of looks 9.

    One of Mystery’s bootcamp instructors, Sinn, who has since had a falling out with Mystery, once said that only 1 out of 10 guys that learns game will really get much out of it and not fail (I’m paraphrasing). Most guys will be able to raise their overall value by anywhere from 0 to 1 point. Some can get it even higher but those are the small minority that are somehow able to improve their style, their confidence, their charisma, their acting abilities and so on. And there probably are a few outliers that can really improve their results dramatically and they’re the testimonials that end up in the marketing campaigns for game products.

    As much as Susan doesn’t care for Roosh, at least is he seems pretty honest when it comes to reporting his results. He gets a lot of 6’s and 7’s and the occasional 8 and rarer 9 (that’s my impression anyway, maybe he gets a few more 8’s than I’m thinking). On so many game and ‘sphere sites you get the perpetual cock brandishing fools saying how they’re now getting 12’s!!!! LMAO Right there, if you can’t even stick to the scale then you know they’re likely full of shit.

    For me, learning game (though I’m not a Mystery-style game guy) was mostly about removing a shitload of anti-game that was inculcated and a bit of my own shy nature and also just letting my more interesting side out. But the largest factor was reducing the pedestalization that I was taught to do and make sure the woman’s putting in equal effort.

    I will say this though. A male 3 in looks can get a female 6 in looks if he has high charisma or life success. A 9? Well, he’d have to be super charismatic or famous but there are some rock stars that might fit that category. But for 98% of guys (or some high number) that are 3 in looks even the 6 is definitely stretching it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As much as Susan doesn’t care for Roosh, at least is he seems pretty honest when it comes to reporting his results.

      I haven’t read his blog directly, but someone wrote about how he has had posts acknowledging very poor results in other countries – we’re talking striking out entirely. Also that he considers 6 girls in one year a banner success. If that’s true, considering this is his full time job, it’s a wonder anyone would view him as an inspiration. That cost/benefit ratio is extremely high.

  • JP

    So, who is Mystery and who is Roosh?

  • HanSolo

    And my point about the few men who really do game makeovers that work probably had something going for them to begin with and just needed something to put the pieces together. Kind of like the excessively obese and frumpy woman 3 who would be a 9 if she would lose 150 lbs and get a good style (assuming her “ideal” weight beauty was a 9, not saying that most women are).

  • Ion

    “For me, learning game (though I’m not a Mystery-style game guy) was mostly about removing a shitload of anti-game that was inculcated and a bit of my own shy nature and also just letting my more interesting side out. ”

    So says the guy who’s quite clearly a 9 or 10?

    Game only works when you have a pretty good frame to work from. Kinda like pushup bras don’t work for a woman with a 48 inch waist.

    “I will say this though. A male 3 in looks can get a female 6 in looks if he has high charisma or life success. A 9? Well, he’d have to be super charismatic or famous but there are some rock stars that might fit that category.”

    Haha, I agree 100%. Not sure who Roosh is, but a successful 3 can get a female 6. What about a 3 who’s an assistant at an accounting firm, or a 3 walmart cashier? I agree with you that it’s all relative.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Game only works when you have a pretty good frame to work from. Kinda like pushup bras don’t work for a woman with a 48 inch waist.

      Hilarious. She probably needs a crane.

      Roosh:

      rv

  • JP

    I still don’t understand this entire 1-10 SMP scale.

    Meaning that it seems like a bizarre way to look a things since isn’t there some sort of compatibility in terms of romantic compatibility important here if you actually want a marriage that works over the long term?

    For example, if you have equivalent SMP values, and say one of you gets married thinking that you won’t pursue other people, and say one of you gets married just for the sake of getting married and then you keep going after other people and don’t bother telling your spouse, “what I really want is an open marriage”…isn’t that kind of a problem?

    (Yes, this happened to a couple I knew. It still completely confuses me. They were both Catholic)

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    I don’t really ascribe to the 1-10 SMV scale. I just have some threshold levels:

    1.) Beautiful (~ 2 % of population)
    2.) Attractive (~10 % of population)
    3.) Beneath my notice (remainder of population)

    Attractive women are those that I can intellectually appreciate their looks. They aren’t fat, probably have some muscle tone, might have boobs but just as likely are flat-chested, and generally appear healthy. If they have a bright personality and a winning style, they are likely to get hit on.

    Beautiful women are those that give me trouble socially. They’re attractive enough to make me hesitate socially and make me tongue-tied. When I say ‘2 %’ of the female population, I am being very generous, since I can think of about 5 examples off the top of my head that I’ve met within the past year. I almost never date ‘beautiful’ class women because they usually fail my character tests.

    In Europe I don’t ignore quite such a wide swath of the female population, so my threshold limits are more so absolute than relative.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Well, not sure if that 9 or 10 refers to me but, if so, thanks, though I think you’re being a little generous. :) Well, and to whatever extent I am good looking it just goes to show that anti-game or lack of inner game can really shoot someone down. In college I went on a ton of first and second dates with quite pretty girls but usually came on too strong emotionally and scared them away.

    Roosh is a guy who went and lived in various countries for a while to learn how to pick up women there for sex and then wrote books about it. Though he is sometimes dishonest with the women themselves, he doesn’t seem so in his writing, at least in the sense that he’s not claiming he’s banging a bunch of 10’s.

    Yeah, I agree on the push-up bra not helping the 48″ waist.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    You really can’t compare yourself to women in this regard. Apples and oranges.

    Exactly. That’s the problem with your earlier comment:

    You could say the same for boys.

    Assortive mating FTW!

  • INTJ

    @ M3

    ^^^
    i didn’t mean that with malice. i meant don’t delude yourself into believing the old canard that women don’t take looks into account.

    For attraction, it matters.

    As per the conversation earlier, i woman can *bury* her need for looks in the pursuit of a hypergamous intent (marry 99 year old shrivled dick worth 10.1 billion dollars and wait for the heart attack).. no attraction, pure provisioning.

    But when it comes to actual attraction, looks play heavily. If you want her to fall in love, you have to be to some degree visually appealing. Granted, what used to be considered appealing got hyper skewed due in no small part to mass media consumption of reality TV crap and Twilight vampires and wolves.

    And women’s perceptions of what is appealing in mens features has gotten skewed immensely.

    Otherwise the “Women find 80% of men on OKCupid unattractive” study wouldn’t have crossed the world and back again a gazillion times.

    Super looks + super asshole may suck for the long term crowd, but the looks will always keep the door open to attraction that being average+nice will never have. (not without game anyways)

    But you are right.. it’s only one of the 467 requirements on the list. But it’s pretty close to the top and a big early disqualifier for many.

    Oh I’m not saying otherwise. I’m merely pointing out that being within a healthy body fat range is not nearly as valuable to males as it is to females.

    Off topic, I did create an OKC account a few months back just to try it out. My account got rated as one of the more attractive accounts on OKC (qualifying me to better rated matches). It was still kinda pointless to use OKCupid, given the competition I was up against (I created a dummy female account to take a look), and the low quality of females I was competing over.

  • INTJ

    @ Russ in Texas

    INTJ: the ladies must be truly beautiful where you live.

    Well, the girls along the I-680 corridor are quite good looking compared to most places. Now that I’m attending Cal though, can’t really say the same about girls on campus. The jokes about “Berkeley goggles” really are justified.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Ha! I suppose it is less of a problem for women on the higher end of the scale.

    Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not. It is a problem for women at the higher end. For example, a 10 can only date 7-8s or better. That significantly narrows the pool of males for her.

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    So says the guy who’s quite clearly a 9 or 10?

    Okay so my male attractiveness assessment is actually pretty good. I wasn’t just imagining things when I thought HanSolo is really good looking.

  • J

    Anna Nicole Smith was a prostitute? Perish the thought!

    How can you snark on Anna Nicole? She was merely indulging that natural love that all young women have for old men. To deny that is to be a feminist, nay, a feminazi.

  • Ion

    “Okay so my male attractiveness assessment is actually pretty good. I wasn’t just imagining things when I thought HanSolo is really good looking.”

    You weren’t imagining it.

    Hans

    “Well, not sure if that 9 or 10 refers to me but, if so, thanks, though I think you’re being a little generous. ”

    Not generous, I am going by your avatar alone. -1 if you work in retail/make less than 30,000; -2 if you’re under 5’8.

    “in the sense that he’s not claiming he’s banging a bunch of 10′s.”

    I wouldn’t believe a pickup artist was banging anyone close to a 9 (and in some cases 5-9s) without seeing a cell phone pic at 8am with a girl laying next to him, hair tousled and all. Some pick up artists seem to be gifted fiction writers/storytellers, from what I’ve read.

  • J

    How do you gals inhibit each other’s reproductive cycles? Sounds like witchcraft.

    When women live together for long periods of time, their cycles seems to line up eventually, so that everyone ovulates at about the time. It appears to be the result of smelling each others pheremones and probably reduced competition for mates among hunter-gathers living in the same cave or tribe.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Han Solo looks nordic. A bit like Thor.

    Lucky bastage.

    How can you snark on Anna Nicole? She was merely indulging that natural love that all young women have for old men. To deny that is to be a feminist, nay, a feminazi.

    Oh you’re cold.

    Given all the recent talk about young females and attraction to older gents, this made me laugh. Tho come’on.. she married the fucking crypt keeper! She knew he wouldn’t make it past the first romp and she’d be swimming in his dough.

    She was attracted all right. To the bulge in his pants. Left pocket. Where his wallet resided.

    Anna Nicole was the poster child for hypergamy.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Thanks. :)

    The -1 and -2 would be for looks? SMV? MMV? Just curious. I guess I can understand how height could take off of looks but didn’t get how the income would affect looks so that’s why I asked.

  • J

    mutual attraction/love. that’s code for “i want hawt”

    Is it? I took that to mean that people are have higher expectations of having romance or a soulmate in their marriage and are seeing marriage as less of a vehicle for raising kids or building a home.

  • J

    Given all the recent talk about young females and attraction to older gents, this made me laugh.

    That’s good, Mike; it was a joke.

    Tho come’on.. she married the fucking crypt keeper! She knew he wouldn’t make it past the first romp and she’d be swimming in his dough.

    I know. Whenever we discuss old men with pretty young things, I always make the joke that the old man must have a real big…wait for it…wallet.

    She was attracted all right. To the bulge in his pants. Left pocket. Where his wallet resided.

    See, great minds think alike.

    I’m not sure it’s hypergamy as much as everyone in a relationship has to bring something to the table. If a man can’t bring youth,health and virility, he better bring something else of similar value. In the cases of Anna’s decrepit husband, it was tons of money–in direct proportion to his decrepitude.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “Is it? I took that to mean that people are have higher expectations of having romance or a soulmate in their marriage and are seeing marriage as less of a vehicle for raising kids or building a home.”

    In context dear, in context. Compare all the traits on the graph that rose and fell, and you see nihilism. You’re right, they’re not looking a marriage based on family. Can’t even say they’re looking for marriage. Just a high status pairing for fun and show.

    If you ain’t building a home and family via marriage, frankly you’re just doing advanced dating which always fails sooner or later.

  • J

    BTW, M3, I’m not sure the erstwhile Mr. Smith ever even had an actual romp with his lovely bride. He was wheelchair bound and probably not really capable of the complete act. I read that she would kiss him on the forehead and then strip for him. They met in a strip club where she worked.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    J

    Hypergamy is about seeking the best deal for a woman at the time, and has nothing to do with just solely physical attraction for we know she certainly did not marry him for his attractive looks or game.

    Pure gold digger. Like a prostitute paid with an IOU.

    In fact she would have fulfilled hypergamy to a tee if she managed to snag some alpha seed prior to shacking up with ye old fossil and using his resources to bring up sexy son.

  • J

    I dunno, Mike. I still people in their late 20s-early 30s getting married. They so seem to want things from each other than previous generations wanted less. Where men used to want homemakers and women used to want providers, both now seem to want a soulmate.

    And I think this a long time in the making. DH and I have been a couple for about 25 years. When we were going together, I asked him what he wanted in a woman. His answer was an intelligent woman who had a killer sense of humor and was “beautiful, but not in a Barbie doll way.” He didn’t mention a good housekeeper, a low N woman or a potential mother of his kids in that top three things. He wanted as a first priority someone whom he could have a relationship with.

    I think that’s both very modern and very American. In many societies people marry for common sense, family building reasons, and some of those assume that romance will happen outside the marriage. People now expect emotional satisfaction from within the marriage.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Guess he was all like ” can’t take it with me, and my Willy is finished, might as well enjoy my last hours giving all my money to this floozy instead of… You know.. A children’s orphanage or something”

    Makes me respect Richard Branson a lot more. He’s a philanthropist. Anna’s hubby was a philanderopist :)

  • Ion

    “The -1 and -2 would be for looks? SMV? MMV? Just curious. I guess I can understand how height could take off of looks but didn’t get how the income would affect looks so that’s why I asked.”

    I meant that in your avatar you’re a 9 or 10. The -2 was SMV factoring in the women who visually filter out all men under 5’9, by her arbitrary height requirement.

    Income does not change the fact that a man is good looking. You really need to be good looking, be dominant, or have resources (obviously its better if these things are combined). -1 MMV 0n income, but your SMV stays the same. That’s my opinion though.

    So a better way to put it re SMV is:

    If you are 6’3, make 50,000+ a year, and look exactly how you look you’re a 10.

    If you’re 6’3, and work at walmart, you’re a 9-10 who shoots up red flags for LTR and marriage.

    If you’re 5’8, and make 50,000 a year, you’re an 8.

    If you work at walmart and are 5’7, you’re a 7.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    I’m hitting the sack.

    You may have lucked out, or maybe both of you knew you just wanted partnership, not kids/family/responsibility.

    I can relate. It’s what I wanted. My wife changed the goalposts, family obligations, financial responsibilities, etc, even the act of marriage itself got in the way of just being soulmates.

    Real life and responsibility ruined us. Hope you guys fair better.

  • J

    Hypergamy is about seeking the best deal for a woman at the time,

    Everybody wants the best deal they can get out of a relationship, the fitterst mate, even men. Mothe Teresa was a better person than I am, but I’m the one with a husband and two kids.

    In fact she would have fulfilled hypergamy to a tee if she managed to snag some alpha seed prior to shacking up with ye old fossil and using his resources to bring up sexy son.

    I believe she was a single mother when she met her husband, who apparently found her hot enough to allow the kid to be part of the trade off. After his death, she found a sexy guy to father a daughter but then ended up living with a male golddigger who allowed her to destroy herself after the overdose of the sexy son.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Thanks for the explanation.

    FWIW, I’m 6′.

  • Ion

    “When women live together for long periods of time, their cycles seems to line up eventually, so that everyone ovulates at about the time.”

    At my last job, I’m pretty sure most of my coworkers synced. I remember that the bathroom trash would literally be stacked to the brim with tampons that weren’t mine when I was on my period. Definitely wasn’t like that when me and three of my colleagues started working there (we all got hired about a week a part). I’ve also been synced with my bff’s. At one point about a year ago we all started our periods the same day.

    I wish there was further research on it. Like if all women lived on Pangaea, what would happen? We’d all get our periods at the same time, under the full moon, while worshipping the moon goddess? Kind of creepy, but cool.

  • Ion

    No prob Hans. :-)

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Well, your comments have been quite thought provoking.

    I never thought of myself as a 9 or 10 in looks, although my gay brother has often told me I am good looking. I guess I just thought he was being nice but exaggerating. Anyway, I think part of it was a certain kind of solipsism where since I don’t get a lot of attention from women in the way a female 9 would from men (plus I’m kind of oblivious to it too since I’ve been out with female friends who tell me that other women are checking me out) that I assumed I was more like a 7 or maybe an 8 at best. Well, obviously women probably aren’t as overt as men in showing interest either (unless you’re a rock star or whatever).

    I was making out with this Mormon girl once several years ago and she told me I was the hottest guy she’d ever kissed. I was flattered but in my mind thought, “shit, you must not have been with many hot guys.”

    Though I do alright with women I guess it just goes to show that looks aren’t as highly valuable in a man as they are in a woman in terms of attracting the opposite sex.

    Sometimes I’ve wondered if being a woman would have been easier for me (not that I want to be one). My somewhat shy and reserved personality would be less of a hinderance and my niceness would be seen as a huge plus! lol

  • Mike C

    So a better way to put it re SMV is:

    If you are 6’3, make 50,000+ a year, and look exactly how you look you’re a 10.

    If you’re 6’3, and work at walmart, you’re a 9-10 who shoots up red flags for LTR and marriage.

    If you’re 5’8, and make 50,000 a year, you’re an 8.

    If you work at walmart and are 5’7, you’re a 7.

    Hmmmm….very interesting.

  • HanSolo

    That should read, “with any hot guys”

  • Mike C

    Sometimes I’ve wondered if being a woman would have been easier for me (not that I want to be one). My somewhat shy and reserved personality would be less of a hinderance and my niceness would be seen as a huge plus! lol

    LOL…I’ve actually wondered the same thing myself in the past. Actually, and I know this will sound bizarre but at one time I wondered to myself how much easier my sexual/romantic life would have been if I were gay.

  • HanSolo

    I’ve wondered the same thing. If one is looking for casual sex then being gay would make things much easier but harder if looking for long term. That’s what my gay brother says, anyways.

  • HanSolo

    Since I want a family I’m glad I’m not gay.

  • Emily

    >> “Think of it as the boy band theory: In Backstreet Boys Howie D was the most popular among the girls, but Nick, AJ, Kevin and Bryan had their own share of attention from other girls how had other modifiers to their hypergamy.”

    What?!!!! I didn’t think that anybody liked Howie! Maybe this is an age thing or a culture thing? Most girls I knew were into either Nick or Brian.

  • Emily

    >> Girls don’t care about looks very much,

    >BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Sure they don’t….

    Haha yeah, pretty much this. Speaking of good looks: Han Solo’s new pic is giving off a very Alexander Skarsgard-eque vibe. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Actually, and I know this will sound bizarre but at one time I wondered to myself how much easier my sexual/romantic life would have been if I were gay.

    I wondered that most of my teen years, specially since I was picky as hell with men. the idea of kissing a woman turns my stomach though so I know for sure I’m stuck in heterosexuality. Now I’m happy that is the case but for a long time I fantasized how easy my life will be.
    Of course my gay friends used to tell me that as hard as being heterosexual is, being gay is harder. I mean you are probably going to get a lot of casual sex, but the moment you want a man more than other you will be screwed up since gays cheat on each other three times more than hetero and they are as jealous as you would be of your girlfriend with little chance of getting a faithful partner, at least till they start lowering their testosterone with age and they are harder on looks for their partner than a man will be. And the few lesbians I knew were pretty screwed in the head too, usually by mistreatment of other women and jealousy. I really don’t envy them. There is a lot of drama, violence and abuse in the gay world, they just keep shut about it more, YMMV.

    What?!!!! I didn’t think that anybody liked Howie! Maybe this is an age thing or a culture thing? Most girls I knew were into either Nick or Brian.

    I was the only one that liked Brian in my group. Is probably a social group thing. I was also the only Luis Miguel fan for all HS and big part of college. But the man used to fill all his concerts, when I finally joined the official fan club, it turns out most of his fans are high class while the lower classes preferred Ricky Martin, Chayanne and the likes. We usually hang around like minded people.

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Susan Walsh,

    Interesting article. I’m concerned that this support for “Alpha Female” behavior should be taken in a broader context though, so women don’t run off and think dominance, education, and success alone will get them the man of their dreams. To better understand this phenomenon, we need to look at the old difference between sexual market value (SMV) and marriage market value (MMV). Put more simply, we need to look at the type of women men want to have sex with…and those that they marry. Those are often two very different things.

    The survey above is clearly asking about MARRIAGE preferences (e.g. MMV). Thus, the question itself is selecting for features that men desire in a marriage partner only. Further, they may also be selecting for men more interested in marriage (e.g. the beta provider type). Thus, a safe conclusion from this survey is that only marriage-minded men look for such features in a wife.

    The PROBLEM that I have noted is that women often do not want those type of “marriage minded” men. They want the high status, alpha, CEO, sexy types. Put simply, women often don’t seem to want to marry the types of men who want to marry them. All single “alpha females” I speak with through my own work complain about the beta, sycophantic, needy, men who want to marry them…for their status and bill paying ability. Such an arrangement may work for men, but women’s hypergamy often prevents them from being happy in such situations.

    Given all of that, simply encouraging women to be “alpha” alone could be detrimental to their future relationship satisfaction. Education and status alone will not net them a husband, without also having high sexual value as well. At best, these alpha only women tend to become cougars…using their wealth to keep young, attractive men (much as some men do). That may be fine for some. Personally, however, I have not seen women adapt to that situation of “sugar mama” as well as men seem to do it.

    My two cents then…definitely tell women to get an education and a good job (increasing their MMV). BUT, not to the exclusion of their physical attractiveness, sexual selectivity, and feminine demeanor (which contributes to their SMV). Thus I disagree with your statement that, “That means that alpha females are less likely to be perceived as masculine, overbearing, etc.” It may be an unfair double-standard, but if they want the type of man that will satisfy them, women must be BOTH educated, successful AND still feminine and attractive. If they just go with straight dominance only, then they seem to be left with submissive, beta men courting them to be taken care of…who they often find no sexual desire for in return.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dr. Jeremy

      All single “alpha females” I speak with through my own work complain about the beta, sycophantic, needy, men who want to marry them…for their status and bill paying ability. Such an arrangement may work for men, but women’s hypergamy often prevents them from being happy in such situations.

      That’s why I hypothesize that in general, alphas mate with alphas and betas with betas. Or you might think in terms of high SOI types mating with each other, while low SOI types do as well. At least we hope that is what happens. Mismatches of that sort do not lead to long-term harmony, IMO.

      Given all of that, simply encouraging women to be “alpha” alone could be detrimental to their future relationship satisfaction…” It may be an unfair double-standard, but if they want the type of man that will satisfy them, women must be BOTH educated, successful AND still feminine and attractive.

      Were you under the impression that is what I was advising? Not at all. Rather, I found it interesting to learn that social dominance is by no means a strictly male phenomenon (the study was entitled The Myth of the Alpha Male). Also, that at least in adolescence the most socially dominant males align themselves with the most socially dominant females, and that these two groups comprise the popular crowd. It fits with my own understanding of the social culture on college campuses, which I find interesting.

      As I posited early in the thread, it may be that these alpha males do a 180 after college and go for the feminine, sexually restricted types. My sense is that what happens is that the most socially dominant men are late to marry, or may not marry at all, leaving quite a few 20-something females who might be their natural counterparts without mates. Hence the larger number of invol spinsters in their 30s. I agree that these women will not be interested in partnering with beta males.

  • chris

    ^This is the natural end point of feminism.

  • pvw

    @HansSolo:

    Sometimes I’ve wondered if being a woman would have been easier for me (not that I want to be one). My somewhat shy and reserved personality would be less of a hinderance and my niceness would be seen as a huge plus! lol

    Me: But not necessarily. You might have felt overshadowed by the more outgoing extraverted women who seemed to get all the attention, leading you to feel at a serious disadvantage. I find it remarkable; pua discussions on meeting “quiet, shy reserved girls” for girlfriends. It is as though they never realized that women like that have always been around, just not in the places where they tend to go. Or my cynicism is that they wanted the party girls to have fun with, but now that they are tired of the carousel, they want the nice girls they would not have wanted before.

    @Ion: If you are 6’3, make 50,000+ a year, and look exactly how you look you’re a 10.

    Me: Thinking back to Mr. PVW way back when we were dating; from my perspective as a graduate student, that is what I was thinking. He had a tall (6’3″/6’4″) handsome guy look and was in an STEM field, and was ex-military which said, serious guy skills (and thus status, from my perspective)…drool. I see him as a beta with an edgy sigmaness to him.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “Actually, and I know this will sound bizarre but at one time I wondered to myself how much easier my sexual/romantic life would have been if I were gay.”

    I know if i was gay, i’d be swimming in ass.

    The resident homosexual at my job is always taking pokes at me, asking me about p90x, asking me to flex, poking me with his finger, etc…

    If i wasn’t so secure with my inner hetero, i might cave.

    I’ve also been asked to do webcams. Ain’t going to touch that one in a million years.. but think ot the validation? I’d get to be adored like those women who self-shoot and upload their photos to The Chive!

    Now, if i could just get myself off pedestalizing P and get comfy with D, i could close down my blog and live the life of luxury.

    Damn myself and my interminable love of poon.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “Haha yeah, pretty much this. Speaking of good looks: Han Solo’s new pic is giving off a very Alexander Skarsgard-eque vibe. ;)”

    HanSolo has been preselected here by Emily, all the ladies will now vie for his attention. Alpha status conferred.

    See what a little tuft of hair over the eye will do to a woman?

  • Bells

    @PVW
    As an initially shy and reserved woman, I completely agree with what you just said. It’s frustrating to be over-looked by men that immediately go for the extroverted girls. Though I bear no grudge against these girls because their personality gives them a natural advantage. I just have to learn to be more approachable and extroverted with strangers in order to retain an equal footing.
    Also I think it’s amusing when I hear pua men talking about going after the nice girls after they’ve had their party girl fun. I just laugh quietly to myself and say never in a million years.

    By the way, your husband sounds like a great catch!

  • SayWhaat

    You really can’t compare yourself to women in this regard. Apples and oranges.

    Exactly. That’s the problem with your earlier comment:

    You could say the same for boys.

    Assortive mating FTW!

    Sorry, should have been more clear. You stated that obesity was a problem for girls. I stated that it is a similar problem for boys, but what I meant was that it is a problem in terms of 1) basic health, and 2) attraction.

    To be sure, being fat is more of a problem for women when it comes to attracting the opposite sex. But it’s erroneous to assume that women wouldn’t care about a guy being fat *at all* (unless of course she was fat herself and had realistic standards).

  • SayWhaat

    Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not. It is a problem for women at the higher end. For example, a 10 can only date 7-8s or better. That significantly narrows the pool of males for her.

    I wasn’t being sarcastic, but I see what you mean. I was looking at it from the glass half-full perspective that an attractive woman would still be able to date a man of above-average attractiveness, but I forgot about how her options are sorely limited in this SMP.

  • Bells

    okaay.. I still don’t see my post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bells

      Sorry, I have no clue why you got caught in the filter. I’ve whitelisted you.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Also that he considers 6 girls in one year a banner success. If that’s true, considering this is his full time job, it’s a wonder anyone would view him as an inspiration.

    Consider if those 6 were short term relationships spanning 2 months each. That’s a banner year.

    And even if it was 6 ONS in a year, that means he had sex once every 2 months.

    For an herb who’s gone years without, that’s music their ears. I really think women fail to grasp just how hard it is for some guys to get any level of play out there and what it does to them mentally. It’s probably an underlying factor in many of the school/office shooting rampages that’s not addressed.

    6 moments of human intimate contact a year could save a life? I’d say that’s inspirational. So if it’s not Roosh teaching them about attraction triggers.. who then.. Amanda Marcotte?

    Read this and tell me for all his negative media, he isn’t helping guys actually fit into your lifes mission.
    http://www.rooshv.com/everything-i-know-about-women

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      There’s nothing wrong with having sex once every two months. And there’s nothing wrong with hanging out a shingle selling advice on how to have sex every two months, which may involve giving up your job, travelling to several countries, beating the pavement relentlessly looking for women, and then approaching thousands.

      If Roosh does all that and gets 6 girls when he is the Zen master, then how many girls should a guy expect to get if he stays home and goes to a bar two nights a week?

      FTR, I have no problem with it from Roosh’s end. I’m just puzzled as to why he has a following, when he doesn’t have a very good return on his investment, any way you cut it. Especially since he describes himself as a sexual jackal who is unlikely to ever have a satisfying relationship with a woman.

      Caveat emptor.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Roosh:”

    That photograph is not improving my day.

    In fact, my day is now worse than it was a few minutes ago.

    Now I want to cry.

  • Sassy6519

    This thread has been hilarious to read for sure.

    @ HanSolo

    That’s a great new pic of you.

    On a side note, I find myself once again single. I broke up with the bf last weekend. There wasn’t a big blow up or ill-will on either party’s side. He and I just didn’t have similar sex drives (mine being much higher than his). I found myself very frustrated because he didn’t want to have sex nearly as often as I did.

    Why is finding someone who is compatible with me so darn difficult?

  • Mike C

    On a side note, I find myself once again single. I broke up with the bf last weekend. There wasn’t a big blow up or ill-will on either party’s side. He and I just didn’t have similar sex drives (mine being much higher than his). I found myself very frustrated because he didn’t want to have sex nearly as often as I did.

    Just curious, what was the level of difference in your desired frequency versus his desired frequency, and how long had you been together?

    Why is finding someone who is compatible with me so darn difficult?

    Haha….because what you want is very, very particular. I do hope you find it.

  • SayWhaat

    On a side note, I find myself once again single. I broke up with the bf last weekend. There wasn’t a big blow up or ill-will on either party’s side. He and I just didn’t have similar sex drives (mine being much higher than his). I found myself very frustrated because he didn’t want to have sex nearly as often as I did.

    I’m sorry to hear that, Sassy. :(

    Was it a really big gap in drive? My boyfriend has a lower sex drive than me as well, I’d be lying if I said it hasn’t caused issues.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    No one ever mentions AJ as a favorite. Was he simply too street or ghetto/pimp violent-looking compared to his more clean-cut bandmates?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Just curious, what was the level of difference in your desired frequency versus his desired frequency, and how long had you been together?

    He wanted to have sex once or twice a week. I could have sex probably everyday, sometimes even multiple times a day, if I could get away with it. This caused significant frustration on my end. He and I were together for a month.

    @ SayWhaat

    I’m sorry to hear that, Sassy. :(

    Was it a really big gap in drive? My boyfriend has a lower sex drive than me as well, I’d be lying if I said it hasn’t caused issues.

    It was a very big gap. When I’m with someone, I really enjoy connecting with them through sex. I know that not every man has a high sex drive, and that’s okay. I just know that I could never be truly happy with someone when our sex drives are so mismatched.

    I’ve spoken several times about how high my sex drive is, and I think it can be somewhat daunting for any man I date, especially if his drive pales in comparison to mine. The only man that has been able to keep up with me was my infamous ex of 1 year, and even I would wear him out on occasion. I don’t know what to do.

    Are there any signs I should look for physically that will clue me in to whether or not a man has a high sex drive? That would make the filtering process so much easier for me.

  • Iggles

    @ Mike C:

    Actually, and I know this will sound bizarre but at one time I wondered to myself how much easier my sexual/romantic life would have been if I were gay.

    No, that doesn’t sound bizarre. There are a lot of gay/bi men in the bodybuilding world, despite it’s impression as uber-masculine (or perhaps because of it!). Masculine =/= straight.

    To that end, gym saunas are also known hook up spots for men (think about it, a group of naked men together who are in prime physical condition. I don’t find it surprising that men with that inclination gravitate towards each other in that setting. Nor that men who are bi-curious would indulge..).

    @ HanSolo:

    Since I want a family I’m glad I’m not gay

    There are plenty of gay parents raising families.

    @ Ana:

    I really don’t envy them. There is a lot of drama, violence and abuse in the gay world, they just keep shut about it more, YMMV.

    Agreed. The grass looks greener on the other side, but all genders and sexual orientations have their drama!

    @ Ion:

    If you are 6’3, make 50,000+ a year, and look exactly how you look you’re a 10.

    Word!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    On another note, we did an exercise in my class last night; the drill was for the students to identify an acute campus need, design a product that would satisfy that need, and then come up with a quick, compelling pitch. I didn’t ask for proof of commercial viability; that wasn’t the purpose of the exercise.

    Out of 7 student groups (4-5 students in each), 3 groups wanted to sell Adderall type “focusing” drugs to other students; 1 group wanted a business that featured highly attractive tutors (“Hot Tutors”); 1 wanted to deliver gourmet coffees and energy drinks directly to classrooms via a one-click smartphone app; and 2 groups wanted to address the chronically fucked up parking situation on campus (via a centralized valet parking service and bicycle rickshaws).

    Maybe 5 students stated that they had never used Adderall when we got into an informal discussion about drug use.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    My point about Roosh was simply that he isn’t sounding like some other PUA’s that are talking about always banging 9’s, 10’s or the ridiculous 12’s. Since most men (even with whatever level of game they can muster) will never reach that level then a guy like that Roosh that talks about more seemingly realistic results will come across as more authentic and guys will likely feel less shitty and frustrated when comparing their results with his (that sound realistic to me) as opposed to the PUA superheroes who claim results far above what most guys will ever be able to pull (though possible for a few).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I agree about Roosh’s marketing strategy. He doesn’t appear to exaggerate, which makes him seem more trustworthy.

  • SayWhaat

    Maybe 5 students stated that they had never used Adderall when we got into an informal discussion about drug use.

    Yeah, that really pisses me off. I wasn’t diagnosed until I started working full-time. The thought that I was eking by honestly while other kids amplified their natural advantages infuriates me.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    IMO, the difference in effect on SMV between a shy man and woman is night and day.

    Yeah, the shy hot woman might not get approached as much as if she were more gregarious but she’ll still be approached a lot. Plus, I mentioned nice as well which can include smiling and being pleasant so that will do a lot to put would be suitors at ease to approach her.

    The shy guy (not talking about myself here per se since I do, in the end, approach women) is at such a greater disadvantage because he has to be the one to approach usually and that will feel like shit and that will come through in his nervous body language and often creep out the woman.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Also, I don’t subscribe to the dishonest tactics Roosh sometimes employs like implying he’s living in a country for longer than he is. So, oddly enough, though he uses and experiments with different tactics in various countries, including some dishonesty, he comes across as relatively clinical in his description of what works and doesn’t, and doesn’t seem to embellish his stories to the extent than many other PUA’s have in the past.

  • SayWhaat

    Han Solo, I don’t understand this mental train of thought. If someone is dishonest in one aspect (lying about the length of his stay), why do you accept that he will be 100% honest in other respects?

  • SayWhaat

    I suppose I should add that I am genuinely curious, not snarking. (It’s beginning to seem like I should preface most of my comments with that disclaimer. :P)

  • HanSolo

    @Iggles

    If you read my comment before that one I said that it is harder for gay men to find a lifelong partner (and I didn’t state it but I was also thinking about having a relationship that is not open). Plus, if you add in the fact that you couldn’t have biological kids with the love of your life, it just makes the whole family thing (of the type that I want) impossible as a gay man.

    So, I wasn’t saying gay men can’t have families, just that it’s more difficult to find a long-term faithful partner.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I don’t accept that he is necessarily honest in the others. Just that he is not making the obviously outrageous claims of banging tons of 9’s and 10’s.

    Who knows? Maybe he still is exaggerating when he talks about his usual 6-8’s that he bangs. At any rate, to me his stories sound more plausible than some other people’s I’ve read.

    The fact that he is being sometimes dishonest to get laid is also nothing new. And the fact that he’s admitting that lends a bit of credence.

    Anyway, not really trying to come across as the defender of the Roosh. I was simply pointing out that he wasn’t claiming to bang 9’s and 10’s in response to Ion and your points about 3’s banging 9’s.

  • HanSolo

    Yes, SayWhaat, you do have a tendency for, and history of, snark.

    So I often interpret your comments as having a bit of snark in them. :)

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    He wanted to have sex once or twice a week. I could have sex probably everyday, sometimes even multiple times a day, if I could get away with it. This caused significant frustration on my end. He and I were together for a month.

    Once or twice a week is wayyyyy too little for me, but in some friendly surveys I’ve taken I think this is about the norm for most guys, which was very surprising to me. Most couples that I’ve even asked about usually have sex only once or twice a week, and this is what the guy was legit happy with.

    My guess is that it really has to do with testosterone levels, workout routines and healthy eating. Personally, any time I’ve dated a girl or had a relationship, we had sex a minimum of once per day that we saw each other, and it was usually more. My record for a weekend was 11x from Friday night to Monday afternoon, which happened with my last gf. My perfect weekend with a girl is a movie or two, cooking dinner one night, going to the gym/yoga, sunday brunch and having a ton of sex.

    I know that I have a very very high sex drive, but honestly most guys do not. I just always figured that having sex >>> whatever else I could be doing at the time, and that idea has served me well. Like you’ve said, you date and are attracted to very skinny/thin guys, and I would venture to guess that this has a correlation with their T-levels due to lack of exercise and healthy eating habits. Something to think about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Once or twice a week is wayyyyy too little for me, but in some friendly surveys I’ve taken I think this is about the norm for most guys, which was very surprising to me.

      Really? I find this extremely surprising.

      If this is true, why are so many men complaining that their wives have lost their sex drive and now only want to have sex once a week?

      My husband is 58 and very thin, and his interest in very frequent sex hasn’t waned yet. I was not under the impression this is unusual.

  • Jonny

    A story about a Alpha Female.

    http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/news/2013/jan/30/artist-lauren-adkins-finally-weds-twilight-cardboa/

    “But in the name of performance art, Lauren Adkins’ marriage to the cardboard cutout of Twilight character Edward Cullen was a success—a Vegas themed, Hollywood romance-inspired MFA project of art imitating (and commenting on) life, a carefully crafted illusion of happily ever after with a nonexistent someone.”

  • JP

    @J:

    “Is it? I took that to mean that people are have higher expectations of having romance or a soulmate in their marriage and are seeing marriage as less of a vehicle for raising kids or building a home.”

    Well, the “raising kids” and “building a home” are kind of the basic requirements for continued civilization. They are the non-fun obligations of life. Kind of like having to get food or taking out the trash. Just part of what you *have* to do to keep things moving forward. The “duty” aspect of life. The “work” aspect of life.

    The romance/soulmate aspects would be the enjoyable aspects of the relationship and why you are really in the relationship in the first place. The “play” aspect of life.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Thanks.

    It’s actually an older picture that I put up to show JP the difference in my look with long hair. I think with the clean cut look and my naturally somewhat shy yet pleasant demeanor that I come across as a good guy. That is when my stare is not so intense that I come across as angry or serious. I guess when I get talking with girls and start smiling and laughing more then they see that side of me and the typical description I get is that I don’t come across as cocky and I seem nice and respectful. Then later when I escalate physically and talk dirty they are surprised: “I never imagined you were so naughty” or loved sex so much or whatever. I think that that’s one reason why the women I do attract tend to be of the single-digit N type (with a few high N’s scattered in for good measure) and not the high N bar sluts that will perhaps go for more obviously douchey/badass guys. So, from personal experience, I definitely believe that a lot of low-N girls will once in while (though not that often) bend their rules and bang someone they’re really attracted to, even though they know it’s not heading anywhere LTR-wise.

    As to the sex drive.

    Wanting about once a day and several times a day maybe once or twice a week is at about the level I want it. I would imagine most men would want it once a day (assuming they’re not exhausted by work or something) so I don’t think it should be that hard to find a man that wants to bang a lot. Most men complain about not getting enough sex, not about the wife disturbing his sedate reading with naughty lingerie taunts and lap dances intended to get him to rise up and ravish her.

    However, with your baroque list of other qualities you’re looking for it may be hard to find the guy with all of those things. Or maybe there’s some correlation between certain other things you like in a man and his low libido. The penultimate bf had a big Johnson but apparently didn’t like to use it that much either. Just some food for thought.

    Maybe you should screen for it up front and say, okay, I’ll go out with you but how often do you like to fuck? A lot? Great, I can work with you.

  • HanSolo

    @Emily

    Are you synchronizing your period with J and Madelena? :D They said the same thing about my picture looking like Alexander S. on the painful fallout thread.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I need to erase my mental hard drive about you: high sex drive, snarky sass that is exasperating but somehow a turn-on, large natural breasts….

    Okay, it is now wiped clean. Pure thoughts reign again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I need to erase my mental hard drive about you: high sex drive, snarky sass that is exasperating but somehow a turn-on, large natural breasts….

      Um. I think you nailed it here. Back to fantasizing, HanSolo.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jason773

    Once or twice a week is wayyyyy too little for me, but in some friendly surveys I’ve taken I think this is about the norm for most guys, which was very surprising to me. Most couples that I’ve even asked about usually have sex only once or twice a week, and this is what the guy was legit happy with.

    My guess is that it really has to do with testosterone levels, workout routines and healthy eating. Personally, any time I’ve dated a girl or had a relationship, we had sex a minimum of once per day that we saw each other, and it was usually more. My record for a weekend was 11x from Friday night to Monday afternoon, which happened with my last gf. My perfect weekend with a girl is a movie or two, cooking dinner one night, going to the gym/yoga, sunday brunch and having a ton of sex.

    I know that I have a very very high sex drive, but honestly most guys do not. I just always figured that having sex >>> whatever else I could be doing at the time, and that idea has served me well. Like you’ve said, you date and are attracted to very skinny/thin guys, and I would venture to guess that this has a correlation with their T-levels due to lack of exercise and healthy eating habits. Something to think about.

    Thanks for the response. That does give me something to think about as well.

    I’ll admit that I am a bit surprised at how much variance there is between the sex drives of men. I guess I grew up believing that most men couldn’t get enough sex, and I thought that finding someone with a high sex drive like mine would be easy. It hasn’t been, however, not by a long shot. Mismatched sex drives/sexual incompatibility is enough of a reason for me to end relationships, and I’m tired of having to go through it.

    @ HanSolo

    Wanting about once a day and several times a day maybe once or twice a week is at about the level I want it. I would imagine most men would want it once a day (assuming they’re not exhausted by work or something) so I don’t think it should be that hard to find a man that wants to bang a lot. Most men complain about not getting enough sex, not about the wife disturbing his sedate reading with naughty lingerie taunts and lap dances intended to get him to rise up and ravish her.

    However, with your baroque list of other qualities you’re looking for it may be hard to find the guy with all of those things. Or maybe there’s some correlation between certain other things you like in a man and his low libido. The penultimate bf had a big Johnson but apparently didn’t like to use it that much either. Just some food for thought.

    Maybe you should screen for it up front and say, okay, I’ll go out with you but how often do you like to fuck? A lot? Great, I can work with you.

    I think that is what I will need to start doing. I will need to ask a man early on how often he would like to have sex in a relationship. That may help me to cut through all the b.s and get to the root of the problem. If a man gives me a low number, I can cut my losses early.

  • HanSolo

    @Iggles

    Oh, and thanks for the Word to Ion’s comment! ;)

  • Madelena

    @Jason773

    Like you’ve said, you date and are attracted to very skinny/thin guys, and I would venture to guess that this has a correlation with their T-levels due to lack of exercise and healthy eating habits. Something to think about

    My response:
    I think there is something to that. Working out increases certain hormones and increases libido levels. I know for a FACT that is true for women (N=1) and is very likely true for men as well.
    Sassy, do you work out per chance?

  • Cooper

    In the picture there are mostly traits that have up for men, and down for women.

    Where can we see the corresponding few traits that went down for men, and up for women?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In the picture there are mostly traits that have up for men, and down for women.

      Where can we see the corresponding few traits that went down for men, and up for women?

      I couldn’t find it. :( I don’t think it exists.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    How’s it going? I want an update! :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Madelena

    I think there is something to that. Working out increases certain hormones and increases libido levels. I know for a FACT that is true for women (N=1) and is very likely true for men as well.
    Sassy, do you work out per chance?

    I do work out. The strange thing about the guy I recently dated is that he worked out a lot as well. He was a little stockier than the type of men I usually go for also.

    When I talked to him about our mismatched sex drives, he told me that he has always wanted to have sex only once or twice a week whenever he has been in a relationship with someone. I tried to understand that, but I decided ultimately that it wasn’t enough for me. He was a really great guy aside from that though, which made breaking up with him hard for me to do.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    And you know how you’d be howled down by feminists (not here) if you were a man saying that same thing and dumping a woman. ;)

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, I assume you know that HS was joking, but just in case …

    The problem with posing such a question is that you won’t get an honest answer. Any guy who hears an attractive woman ask that will be so instantly turned on that his answer will be “Eleventy!!!” On later, when the white hot passion of new love has cooled, will he revert to his natural state and you’ll find out what the deal really is.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    The problem with posing such a question is that you won’t get an honest answer. Any guy who hears an attractive woman ask that will be so instantly turned on that his answer will be “Eleventy!!!” On later, when the white hot passion of new love has cooled, will he revert to his natural state and you’ll find out what the deal really is.

    Say it isn’t so Escoffier?!!

    What am I supposed to do then? I don’t want to keep dating and dumping guys over issues of sexual compatibility. I can’t continue doing that, for my own sanity’s sake.

    This would be easier if I were a woman who had a low/lower sex drive. I’d be compatible with more men that way.

    @ HanSolo

    And you know how you’d be howled down by feminists (not here) if you were a man saying that same thing and dumping a woman.

    Oh, I know. I sympathize with men in a lot of ways. I understand how frustrating it is to not have one’s sexual needs met. Is there a female equivalent to “blue balls”? If so, I’ve suffered from it on numerous occasions.

  • Russ in Texas

    M3 has a very good point.

    Much as my basic reaction to “6 girls a year” is a bit of incredulity (I’m no 10 but could be with that many women per month if I wanted to horndog around), I have known guys, more attractive than me, for whom getting laid ONCE was a cause for epic celebration.

    Sexual frequency for me has always been tied to “how busy am I?” For raw drive, daily or a couple times daily would be fine. But if I’m busy, that can drop to every few days before I really care much (past that I notice my wife starting to quietly pout, as well, so that’s a factor. A well-laid wife is a happy wife).

  • Russ in Texas

    @Sassy:

    Yes, there is such an equivalent, and it’s a DIRECT equivalent.
    I’d suggest hitting Amazon for a book called “Human Sexual Response,” by Masters and Johnson.

  • Russ in Texas

    (bonus for the guys: the book will teach you how to infallibly spot a faked orgasm. insert lewd chuckles as needed)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (bonus for the guys: the book will teach you how to infallibly spot a faked orgasm. insert lewd chuckles as needed)

      I’m not sure what the book suggests, but this one is easy. Put your head to her chest. If her heart isn’t pounding, it’s not the real deal.

  • Valentin

    Sassy: how about uh… purple clit? Too crude? Well atleast I’m getting the ball rolling.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    I was kind of joking but you really could bring up the sex frequency question at some point by talking about getting talking about sex (not necessarily on a first date) and casually ask “so how often do men like to have sex?” He responds. Then ask about him. He may try to answer what he thinks you want to hear or maybe he’ll be sincere. I think I’d be pretty sincere.

    Here are a couple of links about male (and female) sex drive:

    Men have higher libido and want sex more often than women
    http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

    There’s a askmen survey where men and women were fairly matched in how often they want it but I doubt the sample was taken scientifically. I imagine that more sex-desiring women responded to it.

    Here’s a good link:

    http://io9.com/5977668/do-men-really-have-higher-sex-drives-than-women?utm_source=io9.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation

  • SayWhaat

    Anyway, not really trying to come across as the defender of the Roosh. I was simply pointing out that he wasn’t claiming to bang 9′s and 10′s in response to Ion and your points about 3′s banging 9′s.

    OK.

    Yes, SayWhaat, you do have a tendency for, and history of, snark.

    So I often interpret your comments as having a bit of snark in them.

    When I first started commenting at HUS, it seemed at times as though I was the only college-aged young woman commenting at a blog for college-aged women. The vast majority of male commenters were Taliban Todds and Playboy Bobs. My opinions and the opinions of other female commenters were routinely dismissed, mocked, or excoriated. I regarded every new male commenter as belonging to either (or both) camps.

    That cohort has changed and fortunately been replaced with more civil and likeable commenters. I have actually been making a conscious effort to pull punches (so to speak). Perhaps I should make more of an effort, but where some might think “bitchy”, others think “feisty”. I can’t be responsible if some perceive malice where there is none, and I won’t change my opinions just to be more well-liked. *shrug*

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Is there a female equivalent to “blue balls”?

    Swollen Eggs

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I’m not saying you should change your opinions (though, of course, you should always agree with me ;) ). Rather, I’m saying that I think you can lay down the arms with most of the men commenting on here since I perceive them as being reasonably well-intentioned and likers of women.

  • SayWhaat

    @SayWhaat

    I need to erase my mental hard drive about you: high sex drive, snarky sass that is exasperating but somehow a turn-on, large natural breasts….

    Okay, it is now wiped clean. Pure thoughts reign again.

    LOL. Thanks (I think?)

    Rather, I’m saying that I think you can lay down the arms with most of the men commenting on here since I perceive them as being reasonably well-intentioned and likers of women.

    Right. Like I said, noted and filed under my To-Dos. :)

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    You’re welcome though I have NO idea what you’re talking about. I never said that. ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    Thanks for the links. Here is an excerpt that I found in one of them that really resonated for me.

    “As therapists have pointed out again and again for years, most of us come into relationships with a “He who cares less, wins” model. The lower-desire partner has the power to grant or deny – and that often leaves the higher-desire partner feeling powerless and rejected, and the lower-desire partner feeling guilty.

    And while that’s true when the man is the one with the higher desire, at least in that instance both he and his low-desire female partner are aware that they are following a culturally appropriate script. Because men are “supposed” to want “it” more, men are also “supposed” to be accustomed to rejection: “it’s not me”, a man can tell himself, “it’s just that women naturally aren’t as sexual as men.” When our own experience lines up with the myths, we may be frustrated or resentful – but at least we are reassured that we’re “normal.” Higher-desire women don’t get that reassurance. Neither, for that matter, do their male partners.”

    I do end up feeling bad sometimes for having such a high sex drive. I also feel bad about pressuring a man to have sex with me more than he is comfortable with. I always feel like I am inadvertently taking a shot at his masculinity. That’s why I leave. I don’t want to make someone feel pressured, and I also don’t want to be sexually frustrated for the rest of my existence.

    @ M3

    Swollen Eggs

    Hahahahahaha!!!

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Well, I guess you could ask men on here to say how often they want it. You have Russ, Jason and me saying we want it quite often.

    I think Ted wants it quite often.

    I really think that most men in their 20’s and 30’s would want it about once a day and maybe decrease to 4-5 times per week in their 40’s and 50’s. I didn’t really find a good survey with a quick google search but maybe others can find one.

    INTJ seems like a really restricted and less horny guy in the sense he doesn’t look at porn so it would be interesting to hear how often he would like to have sex.

  • Madelena

    @SayWhaat

    “Taliban Todds and Playboy Bobs”

    LOL!

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    It is harder when we’re the opposite of what the script says we should be or even than what the real average reality is.

    I just wonder what subsample of men you’re drawing from and if they are just less horny. I never thought of hipster types as less horny but maybe they are.

  • JP

    @HS:

    “INTJ seems like a really restricted and less horny guy in the sense he doesn’t look at porn so it would be interesting to hear how often he would like to have sex.”

    Well, porn is relevant provided he doesn’t view it as a form of depravity.

    Looking at porn would just fill me with profound guilt, which is completely unrelated to my sex drive.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Madalena:

    Credit goes to Bastiat for those terms. :)

  • Madelena

    @SayWhaat

    I thought that expression was funny, however, I haven’t been here as long as some others but I did spend some time reading archives. Seems things have taken a turn for the better. Less extreme opinions. Either that or I just became better at tuning out when the death spiral of arguments start.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seems things have taken a turn for the better. Less extreme opinions.

      Thanks to Sassy and Madelena for the feedback. I consider that a very, very hard won victory.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    I just wonder what subsample of men you’re drawing from and if they are just less horny. I never thought of hipster types as less horny but maybe they are.

    I do tend to date hipsters/actors/tech gamers, which may explain why I’ve run into quite a few of them who have a lower sex drive. There are exceptions to that as well, which is why I probably continue to date such men. The ex of 1 year was a hipster/tech gamer, and he had a similar sex drive to my own. That’s probably why I had such a hard time getting over him. He was the closest thing to my idea of perfection. If he didn’t have OCD, wasn’t overly jealous, and was a bit less pretentious, I would have married him in a heartbeat.

    Maybe I should do a complete overhaul of the type of men that I typically date. Perhaps I would have more success by dating men that adhere to the typical American idea of masculinity. I could date someone who is more rugged, more manly, with more grit to him. That would definitely be a change for me.

    Perhaps, when it comes to men, what I want isn’t exactly the type of man that I need.

  • Ion

    Susan:

    Roosh kinda looks like a drifter who plays cello in a jazz band, or works for the Geek Squad at Best Buy. If he is able to get all the women globally that he claims (and his blog isn’t just a collection of Fanfic writings), then game must work in ways I simply cannot conceive of as a woman.

    Then again, Americans are so cool that going anywhere your SMV/MMV would climb dramatically. I might be a 5 here, but a 12 if I ever went to Italy, or Germany. I’ve been told so by Italian and German men I met in Egypt, and a few European foreigners I’ve met here in the past. According to them, if I moved there I’d never have to struggle for anything (dating, money, marriage). That is exactly what they implied to me. Being an American man traveling with American $$$ must drastically improve your value, pretty much anywhere you go.

  • Ion

    HanSolo

    “IMO, the difference in effect on SMV between a shy man and woman is night and day. ”

    The difference between an extraverted woman and a shy woman is night and day, too. Introversion is an impediment on par with terrible skin and walking with a limp in the dating world :-(.

    “Though I do alright with women I guess it just goes to show that looks aren’t as highly valuable in a man as they are in a woman in terms of attracting the opposite sex. ”

    It’s just that women prefer 5-8 men. Anyone better looking than that, the high quality LTRs girls get threatened/don’t know how to act. But 18-33 year old women do not want 3s and 4s either. Or anyone 8 years or more older than themselves (for example, most women’s fathers would absolutely not support a guy more than 8+ years older than his daughter, my dad is the same way.) I think that middle-aged men who keep denying this reality enjoy lying to themselves.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Sassy,

    Won’t fingering do you any good ? Surely you’ve met men with “good hands” who, though not as sexual as you, could give you what you need with a wink … and a “come-hither” ?

    Anyway, my theory on a hypersexual woman is to mount the poor darling on a Sybian with me holding the controls. And then :

    Me : Explain yourself.

    Her : Well you see … oh no … oh no … oh no … NOOOOOOOO !

    Me : Yes.

    Her : Huh ? ….. huuuuuuhaaaaaaaaa !!!!

    Me : Can you speak English ?

    Yes : Yeeeeeheeeeeees !

    Me : But not that well it seems …

    Her : I caaaahaaaaaahaaaaaan !!!!

    Me : Nope.

    Her : Youhoohoohoo Bastaaaaaaard !!!!

    heh.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion and Susan

    That does seem like an uglier than average photo of him. Here’s one that seems to put him in a better light and looks more like him in one or two of his video casts I’ve seen:

    http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/rooshv.jpg

    Anyway, he is the first to admit he’s not particularly good looking.

    Having travelled a lot myself, I will say that my S/MMV is appreciated more in other countries but I would say it’s only by about 0.5 or 1 pts. There were several American guys that I saw too and they weren’t doing very well with women at all. So there is the added benefit you have of being perceived as being American/Western-European but there are some negative stereotypes as well. For example, in Brazil, they think all gringos are there just to look for prostitutes and think that you think they’re all sluts. If you can let them know that you don’t think they’re all sluts and you’re not looking for prostitutes then your value of not being as machista and having more money and being a better LTR prospect than the many Brazilian players there will come into play.

    I would say that you for short term trips overseas you won’t get laid as much as some people say you will–it’s a lot harder than you think. But if you went and lived there and really were looking for an LTR and gave the women there time enough to know you and see that you’re not just a fly-by-night char-lay-tan then you could probably find a quite decent gf. Just my 2 cents.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Having travelled a lot myself, I will say that my S/MMV is appreciated more in other countries but I would say it’s only by about 0.5 or 1 pts.

      LOL, there’s not much room for improvement when you are a 9-10.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, I really don’t know how to find this out in advance, beyond maybe looking for guys with more masculine/high-T cues in their physical appearance. Even that is no guarantee but it might be an indicator of corellation …

  • JP

    @Ion:

    ” I think that middle-aged men who keep denying this reality enjoy lying to themselves.”

    I think that they know that.

    I suspect that it’s just devastating to them that they can’t get together with someone who still has the energy and beauty of youth, so they deny it rather than date someone older who is less attractive due to her age.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    Won’t fingering do you any good ? Surely you’ve met men with “good hands” who, though not as sexual as you, could give you what you need with a wink … and a “come-hither” ?

    I have. The ex of 1 year had fantastic hand skills. I can’t say the same for the others.

    Anyway, my theory on a hypersexual woman is to mount the poor darling on a Sybian with me holding the controls.

    That’s hot. I would love it if a man were that adventurous with me. I might actually feel satisfied, for a change.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    The difference between an extraverted woman and a shy woman is night and day, too. Introversion is an impediment on par with terrible skin and walking with a limp in the dating world

    I just can’t agree with this from my male perspective, but I won’t deny what you have experienced.

    For me, the first thing I notice about a woman is her looks. And it doesn’t matter if she is shy, gregarious, mean, bitchy, nice, flirty, whatever. If she is sufficiently pretty then part of me will want to have sex with her, if I think about her long enough and allow my mind to go there. When I think about the girls I’ve approached I just can’t remember not approaching any woman because she seemed shy or introverted.

    The only thing that will keep me from approaching a woman I’m attracted to is if the risk seems to high, namely she’s in a big crowd, or she has a totally bitchy look on her face. But I don’t think bitchy looks or being in a crowd is correlated with either extr. or intraversion. IOI’s are helpful in making me approach a woman so there the extrovert will have the advantage but since she may be more likely to be getting attention from other men then that counteracts her IOI’s.

    Introverted women are more likely to be approached by men (both extroverts and brave introverts) than introverted men are to approach any women at all.

  • JP

    @HS:

    “Introverted women are more likely to be approached by men (both extroverts and brave introverts) than introverted men are to approach any women at all.”

    I’ll agree with this.

    Although I’m not sure whether I’m truly introverted or just extremely shy, since the one time I took the Myers-Briggs test, I was kind of on the I/E border. Maybe slightly I.

    I can’t recall ever approaching a woman with any kind of romantic intention.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    ” I’m just puzzled as to why he has a following, when he doesn’t have a very good return on his investment, any way you cut it.”

    For the same reason that telemarketers and promoters of e-mail spam stay in business.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, while I agree with you on the (non) fulfilling nature of that life (at least, that’s the way it looks to me), it’s not surprising at all that he has a following.

    You’re zooming in on one comment and interpreting it too narrowly. 6/year doesn’t mean six individual sex acts/year. It means six girls, which is higher than median N, is it not? In one year, then, that’s pretty good, if what you are after is N. Which a lot of guys are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It means six girls, which is higher than median N, is it not? In one year, then, that’s pretty good, if what you are after is N. Which a lot of guys are.

      Right, but this is his job. He does this every day of the week. If one of the most famous Gamesters in the world can only pull six girls a year for flings despite considerable effort and expense, I think guys should at least question what they are likely to experience with a tiny fraction of that investment.

  • HanSolo

    @JP

    Yeah, I think shy/not-shy is a better distinguisher than I/E, though they’re probably somewhat correlated. Since men do most of the approaching the shy guy is at a greater disadvantage than is the shy girl who will still get approached by some guys.

  • Ion

    “For me, the first thing I notice about a woman is her looks. And it doesn’t matter if she is shy, gregarious, mean, bitchy, nice, flirty, whatever. If she is sufficiently pretty then part of me will want to have sex with her, if I think about her long enough and allow my mind to go there”

    This is not an advantage to introverted women, the men who want STR are the ones who mainly approach women, in settings that introverted women don’t often go to (like bars, concerts, and events). The problem is that the people who have the most in common (restricted/ introverted/LTR seeking) are less likely to approach each other.

    Don’t get me wrong, I have definitely been approached by men that I didn’t think were man-hos, who were brave, etc., it was MY shyness that was the obstacle in showing interest, whether they approached or not. I usually get terrified of being approached and don’t realize how attractive they are until they’ve left, because it takes introverts a little longer to pick up on social cues, and I’m “aloof” in public. It’s the shyness anxiety that is an impediment, not an inability to attract. Then again INTP seem to be the most introverty of the introverts, so that could be personal experience not related to shy girls as a whole.

    I think men see “female privilege” in a very narrow male-oriented way. I could have sex when I want, sure, and am approached often enough by players/cads, but the extremely restricted/introvert guard keeps relationships from forming, and that’s where female privilege actually lies from a female-oriented viewpoint.

    I wish I could change my personality; I am working on it.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “If Roosh does all that and gets 6 girls when he is the Zen master, then how many girls should a guy expect to get if he stays home and goes to a bar two nights a week?”

    Your underestimating the value of variety and assume that each individual N holds the same value and its therefore the number of lays that is important.

    This is incorrect.

    New vagina one time is worth the same old vagina multiple times over (actual score relative to the mans own wiring and ability to attain multiple partners).

  • Mike C

    I think that they know that.

    I suspect that it’s just devastating to them that they can’t get together with someone who still has the energy and beauty of youth, so they deny it rather than date someone older who is less attractive due to her age.

    JP,

    You should head over to Alpha Game and read the comments on the Lolita post, and then head over to MMSL and read the post on the guys who run the MAP and what happens next if the marriage still ends. I think it is close to ludicrous to think that many guys are all lying about their actual experiences.

    To be clear, the average typical run of the mill 40-year old guy isn’t going to pull a 25-year old. The average typical run of the mill 50-year old guy isn’t going to pull a 35-year old. But a guy at those ages who hits the gym and gets super fit, and does everything else possible to maximize his attractiveness such as dressing fashionably instead of like an old fogey won’t have problems pulling much younger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But a guy at those ages who hits the gym and gets super fit, and does everything else possible to maximize his attractiveness such as dressing fashionably instead of like an old fogey won’t have problems pulling much younger.

      Then why are these couples seen so rarely? If young women were keen on fit middle-aged men wouldn’t there be more mating like this? For one thing, 82% of women want to have kids, and most want to do that with a young man. I don’t think most women will even consider dating divorced men, especially with children, until they enter their 30s. It’s Plan B.

      Here are some interesting charts from OK Cupid:

      ok

      ok1

      As you can see, men tend to focus on the youngest women in their already skewed preference pool, and, what’s more, they spend athe median 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging teenage girls as he does women his own age significant amount of energy pursuing women even younger than their stated minimum. No matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age

      Now the women:

      ok2

      At 25, the female max. allowable male age is 31. Not until women reach 33 will they even consider a 40 yo man.

      ok3

      Note the following distribution. Virtually zero 42 year old men would consider dating an 18 yo girl, something I found interesting in light of recent discussions here.

      ok4

      ok5

  • Mike C

    I can’t recall ever approaching a woman with any kind of romantic intention.

    Really. I find this mind-boggling. How did you meet your wife? Were you young when you guys met?

    I’ve probably approached or initiated conversations with 100+ women with some type of romantic/sexual intention in mind, and I am a natural introvert. But I got to a point where I realized if I didn’t approach, how was I going to have any positive outcomes at all.

    And yes, I got shot down by a good chunk. I think someone else mentioned Roosh’s number of landing 6 as not being too bad…maybe Han. I’d second that as well. Seems to me most women just underestimate how difficult it is. You’ve got to hit all the buttons/triggers on that particular woman’s weighted formula of attraction triggers, and as the interaction progresses one wrong move or saying something wrong is enough to get DQed.

  • JP

    @HS:

    “Since men do most of the approaching the shy guy is at a greater disadvantage than is the shy girl who will still get approached by some guys.”

    Thinking back on it, I think my entire dating strategy involved me wandering around and waiting until someone wanted to date me.

  • Bells

    @Susan,
    yeah thanks! and no problem, I figured something was up

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    I can understand what you’re saying (as best as a man can, I guess). I get it that your shyness makes you freeze up and so on and maybe most of the guys that approach you are ones that are looking for casual and your reaction to the sincere ones drives them away. So, I am not trying to minimize that, but you still get approached.

    Think of how it would be if you were a man with that same shyness and had to approach women (or we lived in a world where women were the ones that approached men). How would your shyness affect you then? Would you approach girls at all? What if you could get your courage up enough to approach them but then they ignored you or shot you down? Or you got their phone number and they never responded to your texts or calls? Would you keep approaching or would you just stop altogether?

    For the really shy guy that fear is a real hurdle, and the rejection that inevitably happens is a huge blow to him.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I recall the last guy wanted it once a month. How often did this guy want sex?

    I find this odd – most guys in their 20s want to have a great deal of sex. Every day. Are you trying to keep these poor fellows up all night, every night? :)

    Haha, I wish.

    I don’t try to keep them up all night. A typical session would last around 1-2 hours. I don’t think that is too crazy. Perhaps I am mistaken, however.

  • Ion

    “Thinking back to Mr. PVW way back when we were dating; from my perspective as a graduate student, that is what I was thinking. He had a tall (6’3″/6’4″) handsome guy look and was in an STEM field, and was ex-military which said, serious guy skills (and thus status, from my perspective)…drool. I see him as a beta with an edgy sigmaness to him.”

    Aww that’s great Pvw! Good to see stories of love, and Mr. Pvw always seemed like a total catch to me :-), you’re equally matched. I’m hoping a similar situation works out for me, been applying to grad school to become a high school history teacher, perhaps I’ll meet someone there. Then again I’ll have to compete with the 21 year old girls and I’ll be 29 by the time I’m accepted, sigh. lol

    Ex military? That’s Hawt. I saw a military singles thing the other day online that military INFP big bro recommended, but I prefer meeting in person. It’s that filter that get applies in online dating because I’m so tall, but trying to remain mildly optimistic since I have 4 potential online pre-date thingys lined up for Saturday (contingent upon getting transportation…major red flag to men… don’t have one because I just moved from NYC). lol

    Your story gives me hope though :-)

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Just so I’m not coming across as a bastard and only focusing on how hard it is for shy men, I’m curious, what are you trying to do to bring out your inner friendly side with new (or old) guys you meet?

    Simple things like smiling and eye contact from a woman can mean a huge deal to a shy man in wanting to talk to you. Asking a sincere question that requires more than a one-word answer will show interest and get him talking about himself and so you don’t have to put much work in. Something along the lines of, “tell me about a time that XYZ.”

  • JP

    @Ion:

    ” It’s that filter that get applies in online dating because I’m so tall,”

    How tall are you?

  • Lokland

    “I think my entire dating strategy involved me wandering around and waiting until someone wanted to date me.”

    Congrats.
    I know for myself and some great subset of men this would probably have lead to never even speaking to a woman.

  • Ion

    “So, I am not trying to minimize that, but you still get approached.”

    Even if who approaches women might as well be Gollum using pick up lines? They fit the unrestricted/alpha category.

    “So, I am not trying to minimize that, but you still get approached.”

    There’s always someone who has it worse than we do, I’ve learned. I made light of your situation because you’re attractive. And, for the time I’ve spent here whining about being approached by cads/not knowing what to do when I’m approached by betas, there are lots of women who do not get approached at all. But at the end of the day, you’re sexually satisfied, and I’m not, because I’m waiting for a relationship. I know guys have to approach, and it sucks, but getting laid all through your late 20s/30s once you figure it out doesn’t seem comparable to waiting for a relationship for most of your 20s, and your well drying up at 30.

  • Ion

    JP, I am 6′ tall.

    “Just so I’m not coming across as a bastard and only focusing on how hard it is for shy men, I’m curious, what are you trying to do to bring out your inner friendly side with new (or old) guys you meet? ”

    I’ve recently begun seriously working on this. I was trying to leave NYC for the longest time (it’s really like Lost when no one is sure how to get off the island), but I’ve decided not to postpone dating any longer; trying online dating while learning to drive :-D in upstate, New York where I currently live.

    I’m awkward, but I’m hoping that can be at least a part of my charm, because it’s not likely going to change. And I am a bit erm, eccentric, but I’m hoping I can cultivate that in some endearing way.

    Thanks for the advice, really :-)

  • JP

    @Ion:

    “JP, I am 6′ tall.”

    You are officially too tall of a girl for many guys.

    So, this is likely some of your problem.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Gollum! ROFL hahahahaha

    “Ions we really likes you. The precious! Give us your precious, ’cause we wants it!!!! Nice and sweet, juicy sweet!” :)

    But, if it truly is Gollum approaching you then maybe I’ll give you Sting to protect yourself.

    I’ll address shy guys in this comment but would rather discuss you a bit more if you’d like, and what things could be helpful for you.

    As to satisfaction, I would not say I’m sexually satisfied. Getting a casual lay here or there or having a fling for a few weeks and then going a couple months or more without any isn’t my idea of satisfaction. I would rather be married to my “soul mate” and having babies–and that will come someday.

    When I’m talking about the really shy guys I’m not talking about myself. I’m outgoing enough to approach reasonably well though it’s not my natural tendency. I was talking more about guys like INTJ that seem to never approach anyone (correct me if I’m wrong).

  • JP

    @HS:

    “As to satisfaction, I would not say I’m sexually satisfied. Getting a casual lay here or there or having a fling for a few weeks and then going a couple months or more without any isn’t my idea of satisfaction. I would rather be married to my “soul mate” and having babies–and that will come someday.”

    Uh, couldn’t you try an LTR?

    You could start small.

    Say four months.

  • JP

    @SW:

    “I couldn’t find it. I don’t think it exists.”

    Probably because of the relatively fixed gender roles back when the survey started.

    They could *start* doing it now.

    However, I think that the NYT is going to become obsolete, so it’s a moot point.

  • HanSolo

    @JP

    I tried that (though it only lasted a few weeks) recently and have a few other candidates that, unfortunately, live far away. In the past, I realize I was either too picky with some that I should have given more of a chance or came on too strong with others that I really think I would have had a chance with if I hadn’t barraged them with anti-game. Live and (hopefully) learn, right?

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Too cryptic for me–what did I nail? lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Too cryptic for me–what did I nail? lol

      sv

  • Escoffier

    “If this is true, why are so many men complaining that their wives have lost their sex drive and now only want to have sex once a week?”

    Because you are right and Sassy is wrong. That is, she has for whatever reason gotten together with a string of outlier men. Either she’s unlucky or else there’s something endemic to the type she’s attracted to that also has a low sex drive.

    But such low drive men have got to be no more than 10% of the population and probably less.

  • JP

    @HS:

    “@JP

    I tried that (though it only lasted a few weeks) recently and have a few other candidates that, unfortunately, live far away. In the past, I realize I was either too picky with some that I should have given more of a chance or came on too strong with others that I really think I would have had a chance with if I hadn’t barraged them with anti-game. Live and (hopefully) learn, right?”

    Dude.

    Just sit there and let her LTR you.

    The secret is inertia.

    Although being in an LTR in which you have no actual interest is apparently one of my natural talents, so YMMV.

  • Russ in Texas

    I wonder if it has to do with fitness and staying in shape. Anecdotally only, the number of guys I’ve seen who are actually staying in shape seems awfully low, and that seems like it would make a notable T difference.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    That does seem like an uglier than average photo of him. Here’s one that seems to put him in a better light and looks more like him in one or two of his video casts I’ve seen:

    Yeah.. i felt that unflattering pic was put up on purpose for effect. I’ve seen his videos. He’s not an ugly fellow by any stretch… which leads me to my second point below..

    Anyway, he is the first to admit he’s not particularly good looking.

    ..that **i** don’t think he’s bad looking. The women ***MAY*** disagree that he looks terrible. In which case, we just admit that a majority of men ARE unattractive to women and the OKCupid study is accurate.

    Roosh has:
    – all his thick dark hair and eyebrows
    – all his teeth straight
    – the follicles to grow out 5 oclock shadow well
    – well built musculature

    If this is what constitutes ugly or unflattering i truly feel sorry for the majority of women who won’t be able to find ‘the one’ because they’re holding out for ‘The Bachelor’ or whatever effeminate emo baby blue eyes type is in favor today.

    I’ve been getting many compliments from some women as of late, and i don’t have my hair and im still working on my teeth. And i am the first to be humble enough to say that i think Roosh looks better than me.. so i have a personal stake in knowing where i rank in the minds of today’s enlightened woman like those who frequent HUS.

    Not that it really matters..

    ..im still fucking awesome :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      Having seen a wide range of pics of Roosh, I would say he is a 2. Maybe a 4 on his best day.

  • Ion

    “You are officially too tall of a girl for many guys.”

    Yep! Tell me about it. Not only can I not choose from the abundance of available men under 5’8, but guys over 6′ often prefer women around 5’3. That being said, I do get approached pretty regularly, that’s not bragging, just being honest about what I’ve seen. I thought it was normal, but I’ve talked to close friends over the years about it (my gay friends didn’t realize “I had it like that”, and make comments about it). Grocery stores, bookstores, bank, at the doctors office by doctors, last week by two lawyers at a law office etc., I am often uncomfortable with the kind of attention I DO get. So I whine knowing that many introvert girls aren’t as visible as I am, and many aren’t approached as much, and that’s a different but important problem. Of course some are approached more (the 8-10s) and others not at all.

    Hans

    ” I was talking more about guys like INTJ that seem to never approach anyone (correct me if I’m wrong).”

    The thing about INTJ is that he will get his time. In 10 years, he’ll be successful, attractive and better with women. By then, the introvert girl who “waited for him”, but didn’t know what to say will be old news.

    If you want to be married, why aren’t you devoting the time in casual flings to finding a significant other? You’re bound to be at the top %20 of choices in online dating even, so long as you don’t have anything that’s a ridiculous turn off in your profile “PLZ don’t message me if you likes DRAMA!!”, etc.,

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    That is something I have been asking myself and trying to do–focus on finding the one instead of just one more. It’s just that sometimes the casual comes along as I go out with someone. But overall, I want to find the one and am focused mostly on that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    No one ever mentions AJ as a favorite. Was he simply too street or ghetto/pimp violent-looking compared to his more clean-cut bandmates?

    I actually had to Google AJ to remember who he looked like. If a AJ look alike started to chat me up at a party I will be paying attention to my purse and valuables. He looks like a criminal I’m sure he has his audience but most women want to think they will survive spending time alone with a male, YMMV.

    “But in the name of performance art, Lauren Adkins’ marriage to the cardboard cutout of Twilight character Edward Cullen was a success—a Vegas themed, Hollywood romance-inspired MFA project of art imitating (and commenting on) life, a carefully crafted illusion of happily ever after with a nonexistent someone.”

    Cardboard Bella is going to kill her…

    Well, the “raising kids” and “building a home” are kind of the basic requirements for continued civilization. They are the non-fun obligations of life. Kind of like having to get food or taking out the trash. Just part of what you *have* to do to keep things moving forward. The “duty” aspect of life. The “work” aspect of life.

    If you don’t find fun in raising kids and building a home I think that says more about what you find fun than this activities per se.

    What am I supposed to do then? I don’t want to keep dating and dumping guys over issues of sexual compatibility. I can’t continue doing that, for my own sanity’s sake.

    This is probably going to be very unpopular but I saw once a sexologist getting this same problem and her advice was for the woman to supplement her sex drive with a dildo/vibrator. So the guy had her twice a week while she used the dildo daily. Supposedly it solved the issue and they lived happily ever after. Just FYI.

    I’m awkward, but I’m hoping that can be at least a part of my charm, because it’s not likely going to change. And I am a bit erm, eccentric, but I’m hoping I can cultivate that in some endearing way.

    You just described myself. Don’t worry we have our limited audience it will just take a while to find him, but it will be a lot of fun for both once you do it.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Well, thanks for boosting my ego. I think that is a sexier picture of me than is my typical look. IRL I think I am perceived as more of an 8 in looks and that will vary from woman to woman of course. I think my SMV is lower than my looks because of my nice, somewhat shy, not dominant demeanor. I would guess it’s about a 7 in the US and an 8 in Latin America. I would probably add 0.5-1 pts to the SMV to get my MMV. I could be wrong. But that’s about how I’ve perceived things in terms of value of women I have gotten with.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    FTR, I have no problem with it from Roosh’s end. I’m just puzzled as to why he has a following, when he doesn’t have a very good return on his investment, any way you cut it. Especially since he describes himself as a sexual jackal who is unlikely to ever have a satisfying relationship with a woman.

    I guess he developed his rep writing 10 books about all his bangs in all those different countries. I don’t even know if the 6 number is real or not or what year it pertains to but on a whole i assume he’s scored more than that.

    As it were, he’s already written about how he’s slowing down, how it’s getting tougher.. because he’s starting to get noticed, how game has evolved and passed around to other men using it, and his age/time spent doing it now feels rather pointless. He made one post about talking to him past self and almost, ALMOST told himself not to do it because he’s nearing the point where he’s admitting he isn’t happy with his *success*. But he still writes with the gusto for others to inherit his knowledge whether or not he’s still pulling in droves of women now or not because it is still a net benefit to beta supplicating men.

    That’s why he got into a snit with the MRA’s as well. He truly feels what he’s doing, teaching guys about attraction skills, is more helpful and beneficial to men than all MRA equalist stuff because it’s just like Feminism only in reverse. And it still doesn’t help men be any more attractive or make women any happier.

    He always said, he loves women. He loves making them happy. Whether for 5 minutes or 5 years (whichever comes with the least headache). Feminist “equality” which cannot exist in nature is not making women happy. It’s not making men happy either.. duh. He is the alternative. As much as we like you Susan… you don’t teach men how to be attractive, you teach women not to be sluts and to screen men for cad behaviors if they want successful marriages. HookingUpSmart may be your domain name, but your mission really is NoHookingUpNoSexOnFirstDatesButEscalateSlowlyAndWisely.

    Caveat emptor.

    As always.

  • Escoffier

    he didn’t actually say that he was only pulling 6 girls a year. From what I have read, he actually doesn’t ever say how many he got in a given country or given year.

    What he said was that six girls in one year is, abstractly, a good year. Again, if N is what you want, then I would have to agree. In five years, a dude would be 30, which is way out on the right tail. In ten years 60 and in 20 years–ages 20 through 40–120. 120 is a super player by any standard. Men probably can’t keep count at that point.

  • OffTheCuff

    Jason: “My record for a weekend was 11x from Friday night to Monday afternoon, which happened with my last gf.”

    I think we hit 9x on my wife’s last birthday weekend. That was her birthday gift. But, we weren’t always like that, for a long time I was only interested in a few times a week, which is typical.

    Still, what’s the longest realtionship you (and Sassy) have had? Going daily is trivial when you are young, or the realtionship is new (as in less than 2 years), what some folks call “NRE” (new realtionship energy). Or: The Coolidge Effect. A bit tougher when 35+ and kids.

    I care more about a sustainable pace over many years, which is more like daily, every other day at minimum.

    Sassy: “I don’t try to keep them up all night. A typical session would last around 1-2 hours. I don’t think that is too crazy. Perhaps I am mistaken, however.”

    Don’t get me wrong, sex is good, but if you *require* 2-6 hours of sex per day, every day, (1-3 sessions at 1-2 hours) you might want to check into an addiction center or something. There are other things to do. Otherwise, you might just want to have a rotation, like we’ve been saying all along.

  • Abbot

    Wow!

    “The opposite of femininity is changing your personality in the hope of duping another person into believing something that you’re not.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tasha-smith/battle-of-the-sexes_b_2581393.html

    .

  • JP

    @Anacaona:

    “Well, the “raising kids” and “building a home” are kind of the basic requirements for continued civilization. They are the non-fun obligations of life. Kind of like having to get food or taking out the trash. Just part of what you *have* to do to keep things moving forward. The “duty” aspect of life. The “work” aspect of life.

    If you don’t find fun in raising kids and building a home I think that says more about what you find fun than this activities per se.”

    Well, those activities are definitely more fun for me than going to sporting events and going to concerts, which many people find to be really entertaining. I’ve successfully navigated life without ever having to endure a rock concert or anything related to it. If I never had to talk about sports again, my life would definitely be more pleasant.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    INTJ seems like a really restricted and less horny guy in the sense he doesn’t look at porn so it would be interesting to hear how often he would like to have sex.

    Once a day.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I’m not sure what the book suggests, but this one is easy. Put your head to her chest. If her heart isn’t pounding, it’s not the real deal.”

    Thats good, but even easier: if the muscular contraction is wave-like and strong enough that you have to hang on for dear life to not be squeezed out, or crushed.

    Vaginas are damn strong things when you get them tuned right.

  • Escoffier

    Anecdote.

    A friend of mine’s wife left him about four years ago (for a loser). He’s now 50. A bit overweight. Totally silver/gray hair but very thick, no bald spots. Unusually well dressed. Good living.

    He has been routinely getting together with women 10-15 years younger and reports being hit on all the time. His youngest paramour so far was 28. I lost track of how many women he’s been with but it’s not insignifcant and not one has been within 5 years of his own age.

    Make of that what you will.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Well, you seem like a better match sexually for Sassy than most of the men she’s dated! ;) Just teasing! lol

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    @Ion: applying to grad school to become a high school history teacher, perhaps I’ll meet someone there. Then again I’ll have to compete with the 21 year old girls and I’ll be 29 by the time I’m accepted, sigh….I’ve decided not to postpone dating any longer; trying online dating while learning to drive :-D in upstate, New York where I currently live.

    Me: Thanks for the compliments regarding Mr. PVW. I’m glad to hear you are doing what you have to do; when I first saw you mention you didn’t have a car, I was concerned. If you are in a car-mandatory place, it will be hard not only to get around, but to date, ie., going to the places where you are likely to meet people. Don’t do the on-line thing only. Look for the community papers; are there interesting things to do in your community that might attract single types? Now with respect to upstate, the question for you to think about is, what part are you in? Lots of downstaters think that anything above Westchester might as well be the boonies. Are you in a family type town? College town? Each will have different types of cultures, and the college town might be more single-friendly. As for graduate school, are you thinking of graduate school where you are currently living?

  • JP

    From Abbot’s Article:

    “Do we really want to go backwards? We made this progress for a reason. Because so many women were suffocating in dead-end marriages while their husbands went to work and shagged their secretaries.”

    Was this really the stereotype back then?

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “If this is true, why are so many men complaining that their wives have lost their sex drive and now only want to have sex once a week?”

    Three reasons. First, once vs twice is a pretty big difference. And if we get busy and miss the “once” then even if we hit our “once” the next week, we are suddenly at .5x over the past two weeks. Married couples who both work, throw in kids and missing the “once” is going to happen. There isn’t a lot of room for headaches and the sort.

    Second, the once or twice a week can become scheduled, its Saturday night or not at all; its date night and maybe friday night if the work week hasn’t been too rough, etc. Routine works directly against our need for variety. The lower the frequency, the more likely it is that it becomes routine. Men may have chosen to be sexually exclusive, but the desire to feel some approximation of that variety remains.

    And finally, which is probably the underlying issue of all of this re: frequency, is the that there is a difference between having sex and the desire to have sex. I think a lot of men become the initiators of sex. It is easy to fall into a pattern in which the person with the higher drive becomes the initiator. I’ve even been in a situation in which my partner wanted it, but was uncomfortable asserting her desire. I thought she had a low drive, but in fact it she (we) just hadn’t developed our communication to the point where the intimacy of our words matched the intimacy of our bodies. We sometimes forget that sex is communication. We need to speak our minds, so to say, and develop “our” language.

    That said, I think a lot of men tire of feeling that the sex *might* not happen at all if they didn’t initiate. What those men are really saying is not always about 1x or 2x or more per week, it is that they want their wives to show sexual desire for them without prompting. Getting jumped by your wife in the kitchen is worth 3x of a man having to turn off the TV, push aside her book, and get her motor running for the weekly romp.

    Its about Desire, spontaneity, and initiation; how well all of that is communicated, shared. Obviously there are cases of low drive, biological changes over time, physical changes that can affect attraction, but as long as both people are expressing, demonstrating sexual DESIRE for their partner, things tend to work themselves out.

  • Joe

    Susan, how are the axes to be labelled on that last graph, please?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, how are the axes to be labelled on that last graph, please?

      Sorry, the axis was apparently a separate image. Fixed now, it’s male age.

  • Escoffier

    Why do you need to go to grad school to be a HS history teacher?

    Whatever you do, DON’T PAY FOR IT!!!!

  • INTJ

    @ pvw

    Or my cynicism is that they wanted the party girls to have fun with, but now that they are tired of the carousel, they want the nice girls they would not have wanted before.

    It’s just the male version of “alpha fucks, beta bucks”.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Sorry, should have been more clear. You stated that obesity was a problem for girls. I stated that it is a similar problem for boys, but what I meant was that it is a problem in terms of 1) basic health, and 2) attraction.

    To be sure, being fat is more of a problem for women when it comes to attracting the opposite sex. But it’s erroneous to assume that women wouldn’t care about a guy being fat *at all* (unless of course she was fat herself and had realistic standards).

    Ah that makes sense.

  • JP

    @Escoffier:

    “Why do you need to go to grad school to be a HS history teacher?

    Whatever you do, DON’T PAY FOR IT!!!!”

    I think that non-majors need the Masters in Teaching degree.

  • Ion

    “Why do you need to go to grad school to be a HS history teacher?”

    It’s the new NYS b.s. requirement so everyone’s in debt, coming to a state near you…..

    “Whatever you do, DON’T PAY FOR IT!!!!”

    :-( what should I do? You have to spend money to make money. Plus I majored in Art History so I already have some of the core requirements.

  • JP

    @Ion:

    ” what should I do? You have to spend money to make money. Plus I majored in Art History so I already have some of the core requirements.”

    I don’t see a problem with taking out student loans to get a masters degree to go into teaching.

    I see a problem with going to law school.

    I see a ginormous problem with going to law school and taking out $200,000 in loans.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, do you have a long-lost son named John Connor…? You remind me of a young Michael Biehn.

    Sassy, I agree with Escof that your SMP niche may be populated with more androgynous, lower T type guys. I think you may be able to get some hipster affectations—iconoclast’s wardrobe & style, cultural knowledge regarding indie music and films, insolence, etc.—in more of a high T, traditional jock-type package. I’m guessing that you like emotionally complex, interesting men and the hipsters tend to be able to deliver that to you, even if they are unable to take you to your desired “Poundtown” destination as frequently as they should.

    Ana: lol @ your great description of poor “AJ”. He does look like a crack hustler.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Teaching pay is so crap in the USA though, how could one require a M.A. for it?

  • JP

    @MNT:

    “Teaching pay is so crap in the USA though, how could one require a M.A. for it?”

    Not in MD, PA, NJ, and NY.

    It sure is sad when teachers can’t make more than low six figures.

    BEHOLD…I GIVE YOU COUNCIL ROCK:

    “In the second year of the CREA agreement, teachers will receive a typical step increase that will occur during the 13th pay in the 2013-14 school year. This applies to approximately 47 percent of teachers that are not at the top of the salary scale. There will be no increase for teachers at the top of the scale.

    In the third year, all teachers will receive a half percent increase at mid-year. Currently, the top teacher salary for Council Rock is $106,900. With this new agreement, the top teacher salary will rise to $107,200 by mid-year of the 2014-15 school year.”

    http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/2012/06/06/the_advance/news/doc4fcff7f059136267692062.txt

  • Ion

    ” If you are in a car-mandatory place, it will be hard not only to get around, but to date, ie., going to the places where you are likely to meet people. ”

    Sigh, exactly. I’ve triple-booked some of these guys on Saturday, and basically spending the whole day in the same spot. I was getting tired of waiting until I am in an ideal place. Like waiting until I left NYC, waiting until I found a job, etc., now wait until I complete graduate school, wait until I own a vehicle, wait until I start teaching in a public school?

    Went to college in Westchester (I agree with you, with upstate equaling “yonkers” to everyone from NYC), but I’m from about an hr outside of Buffalo, NY.

    What was your major in grad school?

  • JP

    My father was a PA school superintendent of schools.

    I know of what I speak.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    When I’m talking about the really shy guys I’m not talking about myself. I’m outgoing enough to approach reasonably well though it’s not my natural tendency. I was talking more about guys like INTJ that seem to never approach anyone (correct me if I’m wrong).

    We do approach occasionally, but it tends to be too late (i.e. after we’ve already been friend-zoned).

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I know I’m probably not high SMV enough for Sassy, but I could give her a run for her money in the bedroom. Also I’ve always been a big guy even when I did some sports and what not.. when I was in HS my average jerk offs per day was in the 3-5 range. Which I can do with sex provided the passion/spark/whatever is there. Most sex in 24 hrs was 12x, my personal best.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    @Ion: but I’m from about an hr outside of Buffalo, NY.

    What was your major in grad school?

    Me: Hmm…Buffalo. Fourth largest city in the state? Major industries, ie., cool STEM guys? Look it up! Let me see…schools…University of Buffalo as the major one. I once had a friend who lived there. Nice downtown area, if I recall. We went to the Shaw festival in Niagara on the Lake in Ontario. I majored in history…

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Well, you seem like a better match sexually for Sassy than most of the men she’s dated! Just teasing! lol

    I’m a lot stronger than those pathetic hipsters Sassy dates lol. :P

    Seriously though, even though they say the sexual peak is supposed to be 18-20, I find that my sex drive is a lot stronger than it was a few years ago. I’m now going to have to re-evaluate my dislike for casual sex, considering how hard it’s becoming to tolerate involuntary celibacy… :(

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Heh I just had the craziest idea of running our first big HUS dating event: Find a virile lover for Sassy.
    We could have the guys telling their personal best, with pics and measurements as rough play history. It could be like The Bachelor but on HUStv we could call it The Stud :p

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    Re: Ok Cupid graphs

    I agree that when its go time, the age gap tends to settle back down. But within the internet realm it is easy to pre-screen out age and/or opt out based on the pure number of options available. Having it all ‘on paper’ makes it easier, a bit artificial.

    And there is also dating, in terms of going out and having fun, hooking up, whatever, and dating with intent to marry. The end goal counts.

    One more anecdotal exception to the tally: on the Cupid I wouldn’t make the age cut either way. But IRL, I’ve dated 7-14 years younger and just got an unsolicited # from a 26 y/o. I guess I look younger, but there are plenty of much younger women who will reach pretty high assuming the guy strikes her fancy. Sometimes the women are surprised at my age and then there is that moment when I can see the wheels turning, but the result has never been a DQ. In fact, I’ve been the one to not take it very far, if at all, due to the age gap because I tend to have a preference for women closer to my age, as well as an arguably unhealthy aversion to the mid-20’s dating “scene”.

    But I do agree that in terms of dating-toward-marriage the % of women who continue to reach up in age and the actual delta in age both drop significantly. And I think there are some men like me who will find their own reasons for not continuing and/or pursuing situations with a significant age gap, particularly for the LTR/Marriage track.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      But IRL, I’ve dated 7-14 years younger and just got an unsolicited # from a 26 y/o. I guess I look younger, but there are plenty of much younger women who will reach pretty high assuming the guy strikes her fancy.

      You’re a 8-9 with no kids, and a strong creative bent. IIRC, you want kids or at least are willing to have them. I’d say you can easily go down to 25 or so, though you’ve said you seek maturity in women. You’re definitely golden in the 30+ group.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Well, if that’s like SayWhaat’s c.l.e.a.v.a.g.e. then I definitely need to erase my mental hard drive…. lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, if that’s like SayWhaat’s c.l.e.a.v.a.g.e. then I definitely need to erase my mental hard drive…. lol

      I don’t want to embarrass SayWhaat, but her body is a 10. She’s very petite, but perfectly proportioned. A goddess. Just saying.

  • Tasmin

    @Ion

    At 6′ it does make for some challenges. I’m curious if (and how often) you are approached by shorter men. I ask because I have a dear friend who is 6’5″ – and yes she played basketball. All over the world in fact. She gets approached regularly and being that she is taller than most men as well, needless to say most of those approaching men are shorter. The interesting part was how many are *much* shorter.

    Depending on the situation and his attractiveness her reaction is somewhere between ‘this is sweet’ (in that ‘this is never going to happen but thanks’ way) and ‘this is creepy’ (in that we are in an airport departure lounge and you smell like a Manhattan taxi in August). Her mental limit is 6’2″, down from 6’3″. For the longest time she avoided wearing heels, but then said F it. I guess the point is, there are plenty of men out there who are not scared off by a woman’s height, but I have seen up close how difficult it can be. My friend wants to feel feminine and delicate, she needs a big man to do that. Her challenge these days is to find a tall guy that is not – has not been some kind of uber-jock. She’s dated the basketball, volleyball types and found that those 6’3 and over guys tend to be some strange combo of soft, alpha, self-absorbed, etc. and as you’ve noted many actually prefer small women.

    Personally, a good friend of mine has a sister who is 6′ and I’ve crushed on her for years. But alas, finding me a good pair of size 12 elevator boots is problematic. Even so, I’d give her my full attention if she wanted it. (I’m 5’10”) But her apparent size minimum of 6’3″ has kept me in her blind spot for over a decade.

  • Lokland

    “Most sex in 24 hrs was 12x, my personal best.”

    Dammit.
    Here I was all proud of my 10.

  • Ion

    JP

    “My father was a PA school superintendent of schools.

    I know of what I speak.”

    All incoming teachers must have a masters degree in NYS, according to the Boces rep I spoke to in December. I have no teaching experience, so it’s vital that I have a masters, apparently. The teachers certification test (both content specialty and general), is no longer the main requirement.

    Pvw, btw, UB has recently become a party school, I’m going to check them out though. Will keep an eye out for the STEM guys wherever I go :-).

  • Passer_By

    @ana
    “It could be like The Bachelor but on HUStv we could call it The Stud :p”

    More appropriate title would be “The Male Mantis”, since we’d be deciding who Sassy is going to devour after she fucks him to death. ;)

    More seriously, Sassy must have an eye for low sex drive guys – maybe they come across as higher value or more aloof because they are less anxious to bang her, or something.

    Anyway, I’m pushing 50, and I suppose twice a week is ok. But if I stopped throwing back a bottle of wine pretty much every night, I’d probably want at least 4 or 5. At Sassy’s age, if I was given a fit woman with a nice ass and big naturals, I would have wanted it nightly, and most nights would have involved two or more blast offs. And weekend days might have had multiple sessions. I suppose that might drop down some after the initial limerance wears off, but not like she describes.

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat
    “The vast majority of male commenters were Taliban Todds and Playboy Bobs. My opinions and the opinions of other female commenters were routinely dismissed, mocked, or excoriated. I regarded every new male commenter as belonging to either (or both) camps.”

    Hmmm. Out of curiousity, which one am I? lol

  • HanSolo

    To everyone interested in giving me some feedback on my look or looks.

    I was kind of shocked that Ion thought I had 9-10 looks since I don’t see myself that way. Here are 6 pictures. I would appreciate it if the women would give me their opinion on which look is the best or worst and why. Feel free to give me a looks rating if you’d like from 1-10 overall, or on individual pictures. Even if it is a 4, I won’t cry. Though I’m more interested in the female opinion the men can comment too.

    For all those that mentioned my resemblance to Alexander Skarsgard here’s the picture in large. It is from several years ago. I had long hair more recently so I can show that if anyone cares to see.

    1) https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294925_10151486714130579_1909459312_n.jpg

    And one with medium hair

    2) https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/46708_10151486731165579_69059120_n.jpg

    And a few with short hair

    3) https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/149298_10151486721535579_2059571055_n.jpg

    4) https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/228139_10151486732640579_361437972_n.jpg

    5) https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/602762_10151486726340579_1726110815_n.jpg

    6) https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/644310_10151486764895579_1098110141_n.jpg

    I guess the thing that Ion’s comments triggered in me was maybe my game is worse than I think if I’m as good looking as she was suggesting. Or that women don’t care as much about looks. However, I think it may have just been that one picture. Any sincere, honest and blunt feedback will be appreciated.

    Thanks.

  • Ion

    “At 6′ it does make for some challenges. I’m curious if (and how often) you are approached by shorter men. ”

    I’m usually approached by guys around 5’9 or 5’10. If I had to guess, most are between 5’9 and 6’0. I think height is really an issue more with women and taller men than anyone else. I am almost always 6’1-6’2 range because I wear a slight heel in the winter.

    I am sometimes approached by guys who are over 6’3, but that’s as rare as a guy under 5’9. First guy I ever dated was a professor, and 5’7 I believe (he may have been a little shorter than that). But what he lacked for in height-dominance he made up for with pretention and age. We met under unusual circumstances where neither of us did the approaching (he was an American professor when I traveled abroad for a few weeks in a short intensive). We “connected” over intellect, typical INTP mistake :-P I was never really physically attracted to him; his sex drive was impossibly low to begin with.

    “Even so, I’d give her my full attention if she wanted it. (I’m 5’10″) But her apparent size minimum of 6’3″ has kept me in her blind spot for over a decade.”

    A completely understandable unicorn she’s chasing, but a unicorn nonetheless… From what I’ve seen girls who decrease their height limit end up in a relationship. Those who don’t, wait.

  • HanSolo

    I should note, I would especially welcome the appraisal from women that don’t think I’m as good looking because I don’t want it just to be those that like my looks commenting. Thanks.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Really? I find this extremely surprising.

    I found this surprising too (sample size of about 5 guys), but my best guess leads me to believe lower testosterone levels and I know that in all cases they had an average to slightly above average looking gf (4-7 range). I honestly do think that with a hotter gf the sex drive would have improved to a couple more times per week.

    As for married guys who complain, that seems to come from guys who only get it once per month or less, which seems to happen a lot from stories. I think the overall complaints would dramatically go down if all married guys were actually getting sex once or twice a week.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    I’m no woman and I’m not gay but I’d say the longer the better. You go from being good looking to being “holy crap” good looking as your hair gets longer.

  • Passer_By

    @han solo

    I’m sorry but, based on those photos, I would not turn gay for you.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Having seen a wide range of pics of Roosh, I would say he is a 2. Maybe a 4 on his best day.

    Wow. Roosh got the 2/10 would not bang treatment. Oy. Susan.. you’ve just made every Joe Average lose hope.

    Please tell me your score is affected by you personal disdain of him and not just his physical appearance?

    first big HUS dating event: Find a virile lover for Sassy.

    She’d break me. I have a feeling Sassy has Klingon blood in her, and you have to hit her with a few pain sticks to take some fight out of her. Then you only have to make her cum 2 or 3 times rather than 10 – 12 in one night.

    “Most sex in 24 hrs was 12x, my personal best.”

    If i get that in a year i’m happy.

    I’m sorry but, based on those photos, I would not turn gay for you.

    Ahhhh… but would you friendzone him?

  • HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    Had to google Michael Biehn. No John Connors out there but maybe I can go back to 1984…. :)

  • INTJ

    @ M3

    Wow. Roosh got the 2/10 would not bang treatment.

    Lol yup.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . Roosh got the 2/10 would not bang treatment.

      First filter is the desert island test. Would you bang if you were the only two on the island with no hope of rescue?

      Second filter is the nuclear winter test. Would you bang if you were the only two human beings left on earth and the fate of the human race was in your hands?

      Even as a 56 year old woman, Roosh does not pass either test. Goodbye homo sap.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Triple booked! Wow, sounds pretty good. I have a million tongue-in-cheek comments I want to make but will resist because I actually am interested in seeing what happens and providing any feedback or advice possible. :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    I would say that you are about an 8 to me, SMV wise. I especially love the photo of you dressed in the suit and tie. Very handsome.

  • HanSolo

    INTJ

    Approach, my friend, approach. Or get into social settings where she can get to know you first and then ask her out later.

    I am by no means a great gamesman but I have some great stories that happened because I overcame the fear and just approached. Of course, I get shot down more than it goes somewhere but looking back it was worth it. One was talking to a cute girl in the bus line in Brazil. That led me to hanging out with her and her friends. It didn’t go anywhere really with her beyond friendship but then I met one of her gorgeous friends who is a low-level model (but I later randomly saw her in a magazine I was looking through) and we became friends on facebook. A year later she and I dated for a while.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Even INTJ wants once a day and he’s as restricted as they come.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I love the current pic with the long bangs. But overall I would say I like the serious pics best – your hardass expression is sexy. Not sure what this means – I guess you should channel Clint Eastwood with women. You have a squinty eyed look that is hot. Smiling dilutes it.

  • Ion

    For what it’s worth, I agree with Susan’s rating of Roosh. Probably a 2 or 3, maybe a 4 if he’s over 5’10 and loaded.

  • HanSolo

    @Society’s Disposable Son

    Wow! 12x! And 3-5x per day as a teen. Not sure if you’ll appreciate the comparison but that is outright bull-like.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaoana

    The Stud!

    I like that. lol

    I nominate SDS and INTJ as the first two candidates.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ HanSolo @ INTJ

    A year later she and I dated for a while.

    Dis is ah yew-fah-me-sum foar sex yayz?

    Is nice, i likes.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    The Stud!

    I like that. lol

    I nominate SDS and INTJ as the first two candidates.

    Lol nope. I may not have a sex drive as bad as Sassy’s boyfriends, but I’m certainly no stud. The most I could masturbate in 24 hours was five times (though it’s been a while since then – I might manage a bit more). I know – TMI.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Don’t get me wrong, sex is good, but if you *require* 2-6 hours of sex per day, every day, (1-3 sessions at 1-2 hours) you might want to check into an addiction center or something. There are other things to do. Otherwise, you might just want to have a rotation, like we’ve been saying all along.

    I’ve had a few guys call me a nympho with serious intent. I don’t know what to do, to be honest. I could keep a rotation of men, but that just seems very empty to me. Is it too much to want to be with one man, who I could bang every which way to Sunday, on a regular basis?

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    Sassy, I agree with Escof that your SMP niche may be populated with more androgynous, lower T type guys. I think you may be able to get some hipster affectations—iconoclast’s wardrobe & style, cultural knowledge regarding indie music and films, insolence, etc.—in more of a high T, traditional jock-type package. I’m guessing that you like emotionally complex, interesting men and the hipsters tend to be able to deliver that to you, even if they are unable to take you to your desired “Poundtown” destination as frequently as they should.

    I hope I can find that mix. That actually sounds perfect to me. I’m an artsy hipster at heart, and I would like to be able to share similar interests with the man I’m with. I also need that sexual friction between us, however. I find masculinity and dominance attractive, and a lot of the men I’ve dated have left me wanting for that. Hence why I’ve left those relationships.

    Also, “poundtown” is hilarious.

    @ Society’s Disposable Son

    I know I’m probably not high SMV enough for Sassy, but I could give her a run for her money in the bedroom. Also I’ve always been a big guy even when I did some sports and what not.. when I was in HS my average jerk offs per day was in the 3-5 range. Which I can do with sex provided the passion/spark/whatever is there. Most sex in 24 hrs was 12x, my personal best.

    That’s impressive. You probably could give me a run for my money. ;)

  • Abbot

    “Was this really the stereotype back then?”

    For a minority as it is now. Nothing wrong with progress. But the foundation for that progress is weak and untenable.

    .

  • Ion

    Hans

    I just saw all the images, and stand by my original assessment, you look less like Skarsgard in the top photo only, but a bit like a movie star nonetheless, if you’re in the plus 50k range, you’re still a 9-10.

    If these are from online dating, I’d try to stay away from any photo that looks like you posed for a headshot (pic 1/pic 3). Comes across as arrogant, or maybe even “pretty”, which is not really beneficial to male sex appeal. Pics 2 5 and 6 are my favorite. 5 you look rugged and handsome in it, so it stays (even though it’s kind of a headshot, sort of).

  • Madelena

    @HanSolo

    All very good pics. My favourite is the 2nd one with the open smile. Also, longer hair suits you best. Agree with Sassy, Ion and the rest. SMV is
    8 to 9.

  • Bells

    @Anacaona
    “Heh I just had the craziest idea of running our first big HUS dating event: Find a virile lover for Sassy.
    We could have the guys telling their personal best, with pics and measurements as rough play history. It could be like The Bachelor but on HUStv we could call it The Stud :p”

    LOL, this has to be amongst the top ten funniest things I’ve heard on HUS!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    Heh I just had the craziest idea of running our first big HUS dating event: Find a virile lover for Sassy.
    We could have the guys telling their personal best, with pics and measurements as rough play history. It could be like The Bachelor but on HUStv we could call it The Stud :p

    I approve of this!!!

    I’m thinking stats! I’m thinking profiles! I’m thinking cards with each contestant’s info!

    7″ or longer? Step right this way please, single file.

    I think the hardest part will be finding a guy who is okay with my kink. Most of the men here are pretty restricted. I would probably scare them with what I like, but it’s ohhh so good.

    @ Passer_By

    More appropriate title would be “The Male Mantis”, since we’d be deciding who Sassy is going to devour after she fucks him to death.
    More seriously, Sassy must have an eye for low sex drive guys – maybe they come across as higher value or more aloof because they are less anxious to bang her, or something.

    Perhaps. The interesting thing is that most of them have started off the sexual parts of our relationships so promisingly. For example, the guy I recently dated was a fantastic dirty talker. It was the best dirty talk I had ever heard, and totally arousing. He also didn’t mind being rough with me, which I loved. If only his drive were higher.

    Le sigh.

    @ M3

    She’d break me. I have a feeling Sassy has Klingon blood in her, and you have to hit her with a few pain sticks to take some fight out of her. Then you only have to make her cum 2 or 3 times rather than 10 – 12 in one night.

    But…………..I like pain.

    Aside from that, I don’t think I would break you. I can’t promise that blood wouldn’t be drawn, however.

    One of my favorite memories of my ex of 1 year (I keep bringing him up because he was my best partner) was seeing him after any of our romps. He looked like he had been attacked by a wild animal. His hair disheveled, bite marks and scratch marks lacing around his torso, with the faint hint of dried blood from welts on his back. Damn.

    I’m in rare form tonight. I plan on going out to my favorite bar tonight just to blow off some steam. I feel like a tiger on the hunt.

  • SayWhaat

    I come back to find Susan and Han Solo discussing my breasts. Oye.

    HS, Susan is playing me up. Sofia Vergara is a 32F. If my boobs were that big, you wouldn’t be able to see my face! XD

  • SayWhaat

    @ Han Solo re: your looks

    Long/medium hair suits you best, IMO. Pic #3 makes you look like an average Gym Bro. Not my taste, but maybe some other girls dig it. I’d stick with the medium-to-long hair.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Pain! I remember the most recent girl I was dating loved to bite hard and one time she bit into my shoulder so hard that I involuntarily yelled Owwwwwwwwww, Jesus! So I then had to turn her over and get on top so her mouth was facing away from me…and exact a little revenge which she loved.

    Talk about a come to Jesus moment…and sorry if that offends anyone.

  • SayWhaat

    “The vast majority of male commenters were Taliban Todds and Playboy Bobs. My opinions and the opinions of other female commenters were routinely dismissed, mocked, or excoriated. I regarded every new male commenter as belonging to either (or both) camps.”
    Hmmm. Out of curiousity, which one am I? lol

    You were the comic relief. More recently you became Passer_By the Pervy Uncle. :P

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    I come back to find Susan and Han Solo discussing my breasts. Oye.

    HS, Susan is playing me up. Sofia Vergara is a 32F. If my boobs were that big, you wouldn’t be able to see my face! XD

    Haha! Big boobs are awesome though SayWhaat. I’ve yet to meet a man who doesn’t appreciate a good pair. My 34 Ds never disappoint.

    Carrying around Fs sounds downright painful, however.

  • SayWhaat

    Haha! Big boobs are awesome though SayWhaat. I’ve yet to meet a man who doesn’t appreciate a good pair. My 34 Ds never disappoint.

    Carrying around Fs sounds downright painful, however.

    Oh, I agree. I’m quite happy with my 34 Cs. I have a petite frame so anything larger would look disproportionate.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    HanSolo,

    you look at your best with long hair.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    Well, I’m just sad that your bf doesn’t seem to be putting them to good use…often enough. I guess as high-drive guy, though not as high as SDS, I just can’t fathom you and Sassy’s guy…and even if I didn’t always initiate I would willingly respond to being treated like a woman’s sex slave.

    Several years ago, I had a gf that would always get turned on by my kissing her and then she’d rip off my boxer briefs. So yeah, I had to initiate kind of but I let things drag out and her get turned on so I could feel the validation of her not being able to resist and be the one to physically escalate.

    Well, I promise I won’t mention your boobs for the rest of the….

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    You were the comic relief. More recently you became Passer_By the Pervy Uncle.

    See! It was all his fault, mentioning your unspeakables. And he won’t even turn gay for me.

    I guess that would make me the pervy cousin. lol

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, here is my unsolicited feedback as a hetero male (I’m putting out a straw man for the women to deliberate on and give you more useful comments).

    1. You have all the raw materials—very handsome guy + legit rocket scientist + a certain poetic sensibility.

    2. Because our masculinized young women seem to be attracted to these dark characters in terms of chick-lit porn (warrior vampires, killers, etc.), I personally think you could round out your naturally debonair vibe with some edgy elements and tastefully understated menace. Some ideas for the group’s discussion:

    A). A small tattoo. Perhaps a meaningful and mysterious Latin inscription on the edge of a forearm. Nothing ove the top or juvenile.

    B). The occasional fedora. Classic gangster element.

    C). Wardrobe thoughts: flattering jeans, prob Diesel or G Star, plus a few tailored shirts and jackets if these are practical. Express your inner poet with some dramatic color in terms of a red or gold pocket square, but otherwise keep the colors professional and serious-Swiss-affluent. Go for outstanding shoes—these can be crazy since they will last forever. I’d say John Lobb needs a visit from Han.

    D). No hybrid or otherwise leftist-progressive Mr. Nice Guy-mobile. IMHO, your Millennium Falcon should be a vintage American muscle car in a subdued color.

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat
    “You were the comic relief. More recently you became Passer_By the Pervy Uncle”

    Ha. Fair enough. Now come over here and sit on Uncle Passer_By’s lap so he can read you a story and give you some candy.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy

    I think the hardest part will be finding a guy who is okay with my kink. Most of the men here are pretty restricted. I would probably scare them with what I like, but it’s ohhh so good.

    Is there really a correlation between restrictedness and vanillaness of sex?

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy, Ion, Madelena, SayWhaat, INTJ, Passer_by, and Marellus (hope I’m not missing anyone)

    Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like the long hair is being favorably viewed. And Passer_by, I am relieved that you won’t be turning gay for me. :)

    However, that is an older picture with long hair so here is a more recent one:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/419662_10151486728650579_855464480_n.jpg

    Let me know if you still think longer hair is better since this is more what it would look like today–of course the exact styling could vary or improve from how it is is the photo.

    Thanks.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Pain! I remember the most recent girl I was dating loved to bite hard and one time she bit into my shoulder so hard that I involuntarily yelled Owwwwwwwwww, Jesus!

    Well as long as it was just your shoulder that she bit lol.

  • SayWhaat

    Well, I’m just sad that your bf doesn’t seem to be putting them to good use…often enough.

    To be fair, when I want him to be my sex slave, he usually complies. :P

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Sassy,

    what I wrote to you was a bit naughty though. Sowwy.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    Pain! I remember the most recent girl I was dating loved to bite hard and one time she bit into my shoulder so hard that I involuntarily yelled Owwwwwwwwww, Jesus! So I then had to turn her over and get on top so her mouth was facing away from me…and exact a little revenge which she loved.

    Oh yeah. I would have loved it too.

    If you aren’t yelling out in pain sometimes, you’re doing it wrong. :P

    On a side note, let it be known that I would diddle you so hard.

    You’re welcome in advance. :)

  • SayWhaat

    Now come over here and sit on Uncle Passer_By’s lap so he can read you a story and give you some candy.

    Oh God, he’s off his rocker again.

    Susaaaaan!!!!

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “Is there really a correlation between restrictedness and vanillaness of sex?”

    Anecdotal, yes. Unrestricted tends to be less kinky.

  • SayWhaat

    Han Solo, your hair in that latest pic is too long, IMO. It looks unkempt, almost. I liked the first pic (your current avatar) because your hair was long, but styled in an unusual way. It gave you more “edge”.

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    Oh God, he’s off his rocker again.

    Susaaaaan!!!!

    Hahahahaha!!

    If it makes you feel any better, I think he referred to me as a “foxy Negress” once. I also remember him saying something about “chocolate mounds” before. Does that help?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    Sassy,

    what I wrote to you was a bit naughty though. Sowwy.

    Don’t apologize. I like naughty.

  • SayWhaat

    Well as long as it was just your shoulder that she bit lol.

    I like to use my teeth during BJs. Slight scraping makes things a little more intense. ;)

    I have no idea what my best marathon session was like. I will say that one time we finished, and 15 minutes later we were doing it again. That’s when he said I was approaching nympho levels…that may have been a little too much for him, lol!

  • SayWhaat

    If it makes you feel any better, I think he referred to me as a “foxy Negress” once. I also remember him saying something about “chocolate mounds” before. Does that help?

    No.

    (This thread has gone off the rails. XD)

  • Passer_By

    Actually, I think it was “lovely negress” – and I was just agreeing with the young man who thought it would be appropriate to tell you upon meeting you that you were “just about the prettiest colored girl he’d ever met”. lol

    And, IIRC, the chocolate comment was in relation to saywhaat’s . . . um, nevermind. I’m not drunk right now.

  • Passer_By

    Well, I guess every party needs a pooper – and we have epoche. Way to kill the mood, dude.

  • INTJ

    Incidently, back in 1948, only 7.6% of males in the Kinsey studies had had daily sex/masturbation leading to orgasm. I guess we’re all nymphos compared to that.

  • SayWhaat

    epoche, we’re having a party right now. Come back later. Preferably with some booze.

  • INTJ

    @ Passer_by

    And, IIRC, the chocolate comment was in relation to saywhaat’s . . . um, nevermind. I’m not drunk right now.

    We all remember what you said about those Hershey’s kisses. :D

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Actually, I think it was “lovely negress” – and I was just agreeing with the young man who thought it would be appropriate to tell you upon meeting you that you were “just about the prettiest colored girl he’d ever met”. lol

    Oh, I know. I don’t mind being objectified, so I had no problem with you saying it. I thought it was funny.

    Thanks for reminding me about that guy, by the way. I hope I don’t run into him tonight.

  • Bells

    Oh gosh, all this talk about sex is not helping the virgin over here

  • SayWhaat

    Bells, I feel ya. Boyfriend is out of town and I’m starting to eye that bottle of red wine on the counter…

  • HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    Thanks for your suggestions and compliments.

    I do like the vintage car suggestion. I once had a silver Nissan 350z that was kind of like a poor-man’s Porsche that looked nice and had nice acceleration. So I’m with you in avoiding the hybrids and leftist-progressive cars.

    This may not be the look you’re thinking of (and I may look like a tool lol) but at a party once I put on some guy’s hat for a picture (the girl in black was someone I sort of dated)–I should lose the glasses with the hat:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/72916_10151488612340579_748762758_n.jpg

    The wardrobe suggestions are good. I’ll have to get my brother with good fashion sense to go with me.

    I’ve never thought of a tattoo but maybe I should.

  • Sassy6519

    @ epoche

    The alpha female is almost entirely a creation of the state. Affirmative action for women and minorities caused the student loan crisis.

    Dude, seriously?

    Screw you and the “party-pooper” horse you rode in on.

  • INTJ

    @ Bells

    Oh gosh, all this talk about sex is not helping the virgin over here

    Well, at least I’m not the only one…

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Boyfriend is out of town and I’m starting to eye that bottle of red wine on the counter…”

    Whatever works.

  • SayWhaat

    HAHA that came out wrong! I’m just saying, I’m getting wound up and wine calms me down. XD

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    You are killing me with your photos tonight. That last one you posted is seriously drool worthy.

    Also, tattoos are always a plus, in my book. The guy I recently dated had 4 tattoos, including a half sleeve. I’m such a sucker for tattoos on men. Dear lord.

    I need to go out and jump someone tonight.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Boyfriend is out of town and I’m starting to eye that bottle of red wine on the counter…

    I really am dense. I took this at face value until I saw Lokland’s reply.

  • INTJ

    HAHA that came out wrong! I’m just saying, I’m getting wound up and wine calms me down. XD

    Nvm, guess the double entendre was unintentional. Carry on lol.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I agree that the avatar has a better style to it. So here’s the question, would the hairstyle from several years ago look better on today’s face than the short hair today? Thanks.

    I’m glad he does comply…. And I really will try to stop with you now. lol

  • Ion

    “Let me know if you still think longer hair is better since this is more what it would look like today–of course the exact styling could vary or improve from how it is is the photo.”

    Burn that picture.

    Or at least, don’t use it for online dating. Style it how you had it before if you keep it long (I prefer it medium/short. Probably because I personally don’t like long hair on guys who are already attractive, I can’t tell if they’re gay :-( ) That’s my own hangup, though (having gone on a date with a guy who was very gay).

  • Bells

    Hey SayWhat,
    I think I’ve read some threads that mentioned that you were a virgin until you got your boyfriend (pretty recently?) If you don’t mind me asking, how old were you? And how did you manage to keep things under wraps? I find that my self-discipline is severely waning and the frustration is increasingly building the longer that I stay one

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    I’m blushing! But I’m sure it would be an unforgettable night! ;)

    Which one killed you? The one with long hair or the hat?

  • OffTheCuff

    Sass: “I’ve had a few guys call me a nympho with serious intent. I don’t know what to do, to be honest. I could keep a rotation of men, but that just seems very empty to me. Is it too much to want to be with one man, who I could bang every which way to Sunday, on a regular basis?”

    Daily is fine, but 4-6 hours a day for 20 years sounds more like a job, honestly, and any guy worth his salt also will have some other interests other than pussy. Are you at least bi-curious? Maybe a MFF/MMF poly arrangement could work for you, where you two form a base, and accept applications for a third. There’s no reason why you you’d require a rotation, which implies the people don’t know about each other.

  • Ion

    Love the one with the hat! Missed it above.

  • Ion

    “Ha. Fair enough. Now come over here and sit on Uncle Passer_By’s lap so he can read you a story and give you some candy.”

    Wow, these latest comments are hilarious and awesome :-D

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    Thanks for the feedback on the long hair and hat pics.

    And once again, I’ll say it! Three dates lined up for one day? And you’re complaining about lack of attention? :D If they are all Gollums then I’ll allow you a little complaining but if they’re decent guys then, nope! lol

  • Ramble

    Ramble I have missed you. Good to have you back.

    Re athletes, my guess is that they mate assortatively. I’m sure Gisele Bundchen is very smart. The idiots no doubt are happy with bimbos.

    Oh, thank you. I have missed you as well. However, for the foreseeable future, I will only be able to stop by every now and then to leave drive-by comment-bombs.

    +1000 Well done! This is the first compelling argument against my claim I have heard!

    Thank you for all of those points, but it is definitely not the first compelling argument against your claim.

    If girls were so influenced by male-to-male respect then,
    1.) Wanna-be-rockstars would not do as nearly as well as they do. Hell, they would fail miserably. Instead, as far as I can tell, they are at the very tippy-top.
    2.) High School STEM stars would be cleaning up. Not only do they get a lot of respect from other smart peers, it is not uncommon for them to get lots of respect from adult men as well.

    Two quick examples of this:
    1.) I went to school with a very smart guy who worked at the local Pathmark (where some of my other friends worked as well) bagging groceries. Well, he was a very skilled programmer and soon, out of curiosity, started playing with their stocking/billing/ordering system and supplementing it with his own programs. He basically got promoted with some bullshit title (they could not call him a full fledged manager because of how it would affect the other managers and, more importantly, the unions) and was being paid very nice money for a 17 year old. The only reason why he quit was because he was starting his own company.

    I have no idea how old he was when he got his first gf. He was a nice guy too.

    2.) I knew a kid who was a grade ahead of me. He was extremely intelligent. He got a full scholarship to MIT and was teaching courses (NOT as an adjunct, but as a professor) his freshman year. He was a really nice guy and I always which that I had had a better opportunity to get to know him. Well, wither way, trust me when I say that he did not do well with the girls.

    I have a bunch of other stories, but those 2 will do for now.

    =====================

    Your theory is not bad, that girls respond to male-to-male respect, and I am confident that it can have an effect, but when you start fleshing out all of the examples that seem to contradict it, you can see it is lacking.

    I think that one of the problems is that it can be difficult for girls to see how much your average joe hates “pretty boys” and “wanna be rockstars” and primadonna wide receivers and all the rest.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I know you’re late to the thread, but I’ve already responded to your points. STEM guys have some real challenges, the most important of which is that women are not generally drawn to their work and don’t understand their work. STEM guys have few opportunities to display. In addition, many STEM men tend to be extremely “male-brained” and have personality traits that make it more difficult to connect with women, e.g. introversion. A while back I wrote a post about why STEM guys struggle with women, which I linked to earlier in the thread.

      In contrast, any kind of creative artist has a ready made opportunity for displaying traits that women find attractive.

      Occupational status is the most important female attraction trigger, but not the only one. Status is derived via male-male competition (evolutionarily speaking). Boys compete aggressively amongst themselves for status from the earliest age. This is one of the points I’ve made re schools not serving them well. By taking away competition, and making every participant a winner, we’ve robbed boys of the opportunity to see who comes out on top, something they are very keen to do.

      Girls are very interested in observing the results of that competition so that they know who the top males are. This is generally obvious by about fifth grade.

      Male-male competition does not explain everything about attraction, not by a long shot. But it’s very important, as any woman can tell you.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    I like the one with you in the hat.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    My guess is that length of sex and stimulation might have an impact on future sexual desire. From what I understand, men have much constant prolactin responses through the entire stage of arousal, so maybe an extended period results in greater prolactin and therefore reduced sexual desire? Beats me.

    Physical exercise definitely keeps me “moving.” I dare say, since my SO restarted her exercise regimen, she’s been a lot more “energetic” as well.

    Sassy’s kinkiness wouldn’t dissuade me. Unfortunately, I have to say I fall far short of her requirements in “certain” departments.

    That being said, I am told I am VERY talented, and based on OTC’s “hold on for dear life” test, I am not being lied to. This may also be TMI, but my SO did not know what female ejaculation was before she met me…or multiple orgasms for that matter…

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat, Bells

    I think I’ve read some threads that mentioned that you were a virgin until you got your boyfriend (pretty recently?) If you don’t mind me asking, how old were you? And how did you manage to keep things under wraps? I find that my self-discipline is severely waning and the frustration is increasingly building the longer that I stay one

    I wouldn’t mind knowing this too. Though i’m probably going to have to wait a bit longer than SayWhaat did for my SMV to rise…

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    Yeah this was pretty much my reaction:

    And once again, I’ll say it! Three dates lined up for one day? And you’re complaining about lack of attention? If they are all Gollums then I’ll allow you a little complaining but if they’re decent guys then, nope! lol

  • SayWhaat

    So here’s the question, would the hairstyle from several years ago look better on today’s face than the short hair today?

    The hairstyle from several years ago was the best. Along with the medium hair in pic #2.

    Soo go get that hairstyle back. Lol.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I am going to email you shortly with some awesome pics.

  • OffTheCuff

    INTJ: “Well, at least I’m not the only one…”

    Sorry dude, but it’s kind of a different problem, though it seems similar. She needs the discipline to say no, you need the discipline to get someone to say yes.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    @Sassy

    Don’t apologize. I like naughty.

    Sassy, if you don’t have a good boyfriend by the time you’ve finished reading this, I will explain to you in the finest most explicit detail … about those terrible … unmentionable … vicious … delicious …and capricious things … that’s gonna happen to your bum …

  • Ramble

    I do know that most guys here say that 80% of women pass the boner test. If that’s true, then prioritizing looks over other important traits hardly seems necessary.

    Don’t confuse the “boner test” and finding a girl beautiful/pretty.

    It might be easiest to think of it as a simple 3 point system.

    If a girl is a
    3 – HOLY SHIT! Fuck Yeah, I would most definitely hit that.
    2 – She is pretty.
    1 – Uh, sure. Yeah, why not.

    Every other girl that does not qualify is a zero. While the girls in category 1 can produce a boner in a guy, that does not mean that he would want to marry her. And, she would not want him to propose.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Okay, thanks. I’m a little too turned on with all this talk running through my head so I’m going to go eat and calm down.

    @SayWhaat

    Okay, thanks. And do enjoy that bottle…of wine. lol

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat
    “I’m just saying, I’m getting wound up and wine calms me down”

    Uh, huh. Uncle Passer_By strikes again. ;)

  • Ion

    LOL! You guys got it all wrong. These are ONLINE dates. It’s not like I walked into a mall and guys gave me their business cards or something. We’ll see, if I can even go by lifting a ride from my little brother, which makes me feel like a shiftless bum. But, I am learning to drive at least :-(.

    I plan to pay my way, and they’re all coffee dates, which I now know is appropriate :-)

  • Madelena

    @HanSolo,

    Not a fan of the long unstyled hair but do like the pic of you with the hat, shades and suit.

    Speaking of pics, does everyone here know what the others look like?.

    @Sassy

    Ever try dating someone from your gym, someone seriously into fitness?. I think a man like that would be more than capable of matching your drive.

    @SayWhaat

    SW says you’re petite. How tall are you?

  • OffTheCuff

    Han and Sassy: google video chat is the safest sex there is. Yer welcome…

  • Passer_By

    @madelena

    “Speaking of pics, does everyone here know what the others look like?. ”

    No – but I gather from Susan that Saywhaat is a buxom little spinner.

  • INTJ

    @ OTC

    Sorry dude, but it’s kind of a different problem, though it seems similar. She needs the discipline to say no, you need the discipline to get someone to say yes.

    Lol yeah you’re right.

  • INTJ

    However, back in Austin, I did have one friend who made a point of mentioning her preference for Indian guys, and how she’d hooked up with so many of them.

    So I didn’t have a total lack of casual sex opportunities, unlike my dearth of relationship opportunities.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    Sassy, if you don’t have a good boyfriend by the time you’ve finished reading this, I will explain to you in the finest most explicit detail … about those terrible … unmentionable … vicious … delicious …and capricious things … that’s gonna happen to your bum …

    [img]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/077/988/my_body_is_ready.png[/img]

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Susan Walsh

    In response to your statement

    My sense is that what happens is that the most socially dominant men are late to marry, or may not marry at all, leaving quite a few 20-something females who might be their natural counterparts without mates. Hence the larger number of invol spinsters in their 30s. I agree that these women will not be interested in partnering with beta males.

    Agreed, with one minor twist… From where I sit, I see BOTH male and female dominant 20-somethings postpone finding a long-term mate for career and no-strings-attached dating/sex. Both seem equally driven toward professional success, independence bordering on selfishness, and indulgence in short-term mating strategies. Then they hit the late 30’s…

    This strategy works out fine for the men, who are either happy staying the playboy, or content with a younger woman of lesser status to marry. The dominant women, however, don’t do so well…as the alpha men either never marry, or choose lower status (but often younger and more attractive) women. This leaves those women playing mommy to young alpha men as a cougar, or bossing around a beta. Again, men seem to deal with that status difference better than women.

    Thus, I’m not sure that it is Alpha with Alpha. In fact, women’s hypergamous tendencies and desire for high status men might go against that equal arrangement. The “Alpha” men tend to marry “Alpha minus” or “Beta plus” women – and so on down the line. That leaves the top Alpha women in the cold. I don’t have any support for that beyond anecdotal… But, I know a number of Ph.D.’s. The women won’t settle for less than a doctor or lawyer…whereas the men are happy with a cute college grad.

    That isn’t to say that women should not attain status or education. Obviously it is beneficial in a number of other ways. But, it may not increase their chances of marriage…just the opposite. It may make them so high status and selective, yet possibly deficient in other “sexually attractive” areas to men, that they are unable to catch the very high status men who fit their high criteria.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dr. Jeremy

      Thus, I’m not sure that it is Alpha with Alpha. In fact, women’s hypergamous tendencies and desire for high status men might go against that equal arrangement.

      High status women have been mating assortatively with men of equal status for quite a while now, with a very low divorce rate. I’ve also seen some studies that demonstrate decreased hypergamy in recent years. The economics make that a necessity, I think. With fewer guys graduating from college, it will be interesting to see whether women, or some women, actually exhibit hypogamy.

  • SayWhaat

    I think I’ve read some threads that mentioned that you were a virgin until you got your boyfriend (pretty recently?) If you don’t mind me asking, how old were you? And how did you manage to keep things under wraps? I find that my self-discipline is severely waning and the frustration is increasingly building the longer that I stay one.

    I was 22, slightly over a year ago.

    Keeping things under wraps wasn’t hard in the beginning, but became increasingly more so the better I got to know the guy I was dating. They usually assumed I was already sexually experienced, and I suspect that when they found out I was a virgin, the notion was so incongruent with the image of me they had in their head that it was part of the reason why they jetted. I wouldn’t assume that I am a success story just because I managed to finally land a boyfriend. It was equal parts having the time to really get to know a guy, and him not setting a sexual timeline.

    I met my boyfriend through online dating, but I would not recommend it for anyone who is sexually inexperienced/restricted. I think I went through more of an emotional wringer than I would have if I had just met and dated someone normally.

    If I had to do it over again, I would do more to emotionally escalate appropriately and filter out guys early on who were obviously not good matches. Above all I really just needed the time to really get to know a guy so that we could fall for each other, so from a strategic perspective I would do everything I could to buy time to make that happen. (I suppose that translates to transitioning from evening dates to daytime dates.) I also would want to have more of a “take it or leave it” attitude with regards to my sexual timeline. If he doesn’t want a relationship right now, ask the sort of questions while dating that will help you figure that out earlier, before getting emotionally attached. I also wasn’t comfortable with having sex without him knowing I was a virgin, so there was that too. I think if a guy really cares about you, he’ll overlook the V-card entirely.

    Hope this helps. INTJ, the above could also apply to you, only I would focus on approaching more than filtering.

  • JP

    @Ion:

    “I plan to pay my way, and they’re all coffee dates, which I now know is appropriate”

    I had a random Internet coffee date once, where someone whom I was wandering the Internet talking to people a thousand miles away, as I am wont to do, had me meet one of her friends who was nearby where I was going to school.

    So, I really recommend coffee dates.

    I can’t think of any better brief date, since you have coffee, and I love coffee, so I can sit there drinking coffee regardless of whether anything else positive happens.

  • INTJ

    @ Madelena

    Speaking of pics, does everyone here know what the others look like?.

    Sassy is in her avatar, as is Ted D (and obviously HanSolo). I’ve also seen pics of Cooper, Hope, Sai, and Olive. Probably seen a few others that I can’t remember, in addition to some other avatars.

  • JP

    Note: I wasn’t really trying to date the girl, I was just meeting her because I was bored at law school and I didn’t end up dating her, but it was fun.

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t want to embarrass SayWhaat, but her body is a 10. She’s very petite, but perfectly proportioned. A goddess. Just saying.

    Oof. That is high praise, Susan, I’m flattered. :)

    Maybe now people will think I am a butterface. :P

    Madalena, I am 5’1″.

  • Ion

    “No – but I gather from Susan that Saywhaat is a buxom little spinner.”

    I’m a believer. A petite natural hourglass is a definite 10 for women :0).

    “Speaking of pics, does everyone here know what the others look like?.”

    Nah. Just INTJ, Cooper, Sai, Hope, Hans, Mike C, Sassy, and Ted D for me.

  • Sassy6519

    That was a fail on my part. Let’s try this one more time.

    @ Marellus

    Sassy, if you don’t have a good boyfriend by the time you’ve finished reading this, I will explain to you in the finest most explicit detail … about those terrible … unmentionable … vicious … delicious …and capricious things … that’s gonna happen to your bum …

    http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/077/988/my_body_is_ready.png

  • Ion

    JP

    “I can’t think of any better brief date, since you have coffee, and I love coffee, so I can sit there drinking coffee regardless of whether anything else positive happens.”

    I was thinking the same. I love coffee, and a bookstore/coffee shop is definitely low pressure, so I’m hoping it will make me less nervous.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    Okay, thanks. I’m a little too turned on with all this talk running through my head so I’m going to go eat and calm down.

    Oh yeah. ;)

    @ Madelena

    Ever try dating someone from your gym, someone seriously into fitness?. I think a man like that would be more than capable of matching your drive.

    I haven’t dated anyone from my gym before. That may be a good avenue to explore.

    @ OffTheCuff

    Han and Sassy: google video chat is the safest sex there is. Yer welcome…

    But…..how can I bite his lower back through the camera?

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Maybe now people will think I am a butterface.

    You’d have to be, for all your self-deprecation to be justified.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Maybe now people will think I am a butterface.

      No, SayWhaat is very attractive. Very.

  • JP

    @Dr. Jeremy:

    “The women won’t settle for less than a doctor or lawyer…whereas the men are happy with a cute college grad.”

    I don’t think they understand the nature of “lawyer”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html?hp&_r=0

    http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

  • pvw

    @HansSolo: I go with the hairstyle in the current avatar, with a tattoo, and as BastiatBlogger suggested. I would go with a bicep one, say on your left arm that you can show off when you are wearing a short sleeved shirt….And based upon the picture where you are wearing the hat, you are tall, slim, perhaps a bit cut? It would look real striking and edgy–you appear, as you say, to be a nice guy, a scientist, but with the tat you’d get a serious bad boy vibe.

    I’m trying to remember, you have a WASPy background? Perhaps some type of celtic knot with something scientific worked in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How interesting that people are suggesting a tattoo for HanSolo! I think small and tasteful ones are sexy (no half sleeves, no meaningless symbols). For some reason, I really like a word or two tattooed on the inside of a wrist.

  • Cooper

    @INTJ #378

    Shit, you said exactly what I was thinking, LMAO!!

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    @Sassy,

    My wife, who’s a good Calvinist girl, woke up one day and realized that yes, she IS a gasper. You’d be surprised how common everyday little kinks like this are — it’s just most people aren’t drama-whore about it like some of the folks on t.v.

  • JP

    @Cooper:

    I have solved your problem.

    I think I can get you more dates.

    It will destroy your financial position and render you underemployed for the rest of your life, but it will get you dates.

    So, yes, it’s kind of like a deal with the devil.

    You are going to law school, my friend.

  • SayWhaat

    Uh, huh. Uncle Passer_By strikes again.

    I hope by now you’ve found your wife.

    So, yes, it’s kind of like a deal with the devil.

    You are going to law school, my friend.

    Ahahaha!

  • Lokland

    @Russ

    What is a gasper?
    I’m guessing asphyxiation.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Sassy #468

    … but first those two magnificent hemispheres must be made pliant … oh so very pliant … and that means those hemispheres must be slapped softly … very softly … and then be lightly tickled … until all those spots are found … where Sassy becomes noisy … very noisy … and once all those spots have been identified … those noisy spots must … quite regrettably … be slapped again … softly … very softly … and then comes the tickling … and then my dear Sassy … comes lots and lots of fragrant spicy oils reeking of culinary delight … and only then my dear Sassy … will your hemispheres be subjected to further treatment …

    … or you could just go and get yourself a boyfriend … in fact, I suggest it … coz I’m not gonna hold back next time …

    Try me.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    That was beautiful.

  • pvw

    @HanSolo:

    Here are some images of celtic knots of what I have in mind: http://www.clanbadge.com/tattoo.htm

    I have this image in my mind, of you looking like some type of male model that I might see on occasion in a magazine like GQ–I agree with the the other ladies, you have it going on like that. I’m thinking the casual look of denim, t-shirt with tat showing, shoes appropriate for the look, getting out of a car, whatever type of fancy car you’d have, with a brown complexioned Latina at your side (that seems to be your preference).

    You’d truly be drool-worthy.

    Oh, and something else, I have noticed that some white guys who date non-Asian women of color (ie., black/Latin women) often have something edgy about them, or at least they seem that way, thinking back to Mr. PVW. It is atypical, you are going to stand out and seem edgy in some fashion.

    I notice it sometimes when he and I are out together; other white guys checking him out a look of curiosity, a kind of “whoa, dude!”

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “@Russ

    What is a gasper?
    I’m guessing asphyxiation.”

    My first college roommate nearly killed his girlfriend this way.

    Not cool.

  • Escoffier

    Ion:

    Here is some harsh truth. BB or someone currently in academia can correct me if I am wrong (I know I’m not, though).

    There is grad school, and there is professional school. The former means academic disciplines on the teaching track. The latter means school to prepare you for a job where (presumably) you will make decent money.

    You have to pay for the latter. There are scholarships but not that many. So, either you pay out of pocket, your company pays (more common than you might think), or you borrow. In times past, path #3 would work out, eventually.

    Grad school is ENTIRELY different. Let me tell you something very important. Call it the “red pill” for the education racket. Anyone who is any good gets tuition waived, plus a stipend, to go to grad school. That means, not only does it not cost you anything, YOU GET PAID. Not a lot, to be sure, but enough to live an OK life for a while in a bohemian sort of way.

    Here’s the key point: if you are “admitted” to a given program, but you don’t get any money, what that really means is YOU DIDN’T GET IN. The people to the left and the right of you will have free rides. You will be a sucker. Borrowing, accumulating debt you can never repay, up to the roots of your hair.

    You said “You have to spend money to make money.” Noooooooooo. Not in this context. You will NEVER earn enough, fast enough, to get out from under that debt.

    The grad school debt racket is one of the most criminally cynical shams in America today. DON’T fall for it.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oh, and something else, I have noticed that some white guys who date non-Asian women of color (ie., black/Latin women) often have something edgy about them, or at least they seem that way, thinking back to Mr. PVW. It is atypical, you are going to stand out and seem edgy in some fashion.

    Not nerds, hubby looks nice. no tattoos, short hair, no too forward that is how he won me over,YMMV. :D

  • Escoffier

    my milage is the same as yours: no tats, ever.

    45 mpg

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    Yes, in various flavors. Forceful hands, hair wrapped around neck, (careful) skeletal manipulation, etcetera. Sassy’s interest in pain wouldn’t have put me off, nor her high sex drive: been there, done that, got the t-shirt, could probably still pull it off today.

    Sassy, imho, what you need isn’t necessarily a guy with a huge drive for hours-per-day, but somebody who’s good enough to provide several really GOOD quickies during the day and can set you off like a bomb rather than a blowtorch, and with whom you can build a flexible enough schedule to make it happen.

  • JP

    @Escoffier:

    I think she’s talking about the Masters In Teaching degree, which is what is essentially *required* to teach in NY absent her going back and getting a second bachelors degree.

    So, it’s really a professional degree.

    And also, you should lump the law degree in with the Ph.D. degrees when it comes to only going if you get a free ride and maybe not even then.

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    @JP — said roomie was a freaking idiot. It should NEVER get anywhere near a blackout. ALL blackouts and brownouts inflict brain damage.

  • HanSolo

    @Madelena

    Thanks for letting me know what you think of the long hair. And the hat.

  • JP

    “@JP — said roomie was a freaking idiot. It should NEVER get anywhere near a blackout. ALL blackouts and brownouts inflict brain damage.”

    In the first week of college, he was so drunk couldn’t find his swipe card to get into the dorm so he ripped off the window screen, climbed in through the window and pissed in the pissed in the hallway in front of the door.

    This is consistent with your thesis.

  • pvw

    @Ana:

    Not nerds, hubby looks nice. no tattoos, short hair, no too forward that is how he won me over,YMMV.

    Me: He was gentlemanly. He has always worns short hair, nerdy, no tat, but he is edgy in that he has always had a mustache and goatee beard that fit into that look. His hair is not buzzed, but it does have a bit of a military vibe. He used to wear an earring before he met me–the piercing is there, but it is hardly noticeable.

    Like I said, he was an STEM type but with a hawt and edgy ex-military vibe. When Bastiat Blogger described a certain type of military look, I thought, that fit how Mr. PVW was when he was younger–the wiry, cerebral sniper type.

  • Lokland

    “Even as a 56 year old woman, Roosh does not pass either test. Goodbye homo sap.”

    Not to nit pick but if this were the case, your choice would be irrelevant.
    Goodbye homo sapiens.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Not to nit pick but if this were the case, your choice would be irrelevant.

      Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn’t noticed that I stopped menstruating a couple of years ago.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Sassy #488

    … your bill is on its way …

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    Your essentially correct (I know there differences between the way grad school works in Can/US) but the stipend for grad school is given out as pay for TA’ing. As for not being accepted if you don’t TA. You end up with same titles, have equal opportunity to be published etc.

    Professional schools are a track set to get a job (or multiple jobs if your creative).
    Med–>MD
    Pharm—>Bachelor of Pharm
    Law—> Law Degree(?)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Like I said, he was an STEM type but with a hawt and edgy ex-military vibe. When Bastiat Blogger described a certain type of military look, I thought, that fit how Mr. PVW was when he was younger–the wiry, cerebral sniper type.
    Not sure how many nerds you meet but they don’t look edgy at all in my group, hubby and friends don’t have any military vibe, unless you count Planetside as military background.

  • Lokland

    @Russ

    Though so.

    “(careful) skeletal manipulation, ”

    Bending the arm back type stuff?

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “Law—> Law Degree(?)”

    J.D. – Juris Doctor.

    (Assuming that it’s spelled right on my diploma. This is the first time that I’ve looked at my diploma in years.)

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    Oh, no. That’s for women who like pain and want to lean into it. More like manipulating the hips and spine — it’s fairly subtle stuff. Think “horny chiropractor,” maybe.

  • http://happycrow.wordpress.com Russ in Texas

    aaaand I killed the thread. Great. :/

  • pvw

    @Ana: Not sure how many nerds you meet but they don’t look edgy at all in my group, hubby and friends don’t have any military vibe, unless you count Planetside as military background.

    Me: I know nerds who are not edgy, but they are in he academy. Outside of the academy, I’m drawing here upon my observations of hubby and a few other of his ex-military friends. Now they weren’t special forces like Bastiat Blogger, but they still have the look–crew/buzz cuts, strict exercise regimes they have kept up over the years, plus serious competence at using firearms. So they might be computer science geeks and engineers, but their years of military service gives them an edgyness.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    Thanks for the suggestions and imagery. I really haven’t thought of getting a tattoo before but I’ll consider it. I have English and Danish heritage. I looked at the Celtic knots–they look cool. Anyway, I’ll give it some more thought.

    I’m 6′, about 185 to 190. You sound like my gay brother in some of the things you’re suggesting. I should have listened more! lol Though there’s still the present and the future.

    Speaking of a latina and a sports car, a blast from my past:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/217558_10151491330845579_1105821114_n.jpg

  • JP

    “I’m 6′, about 185 to 190. You sound like my gay brother in some of the things you’re suggesting. I should have listened more! lol Though there’s still the present and the future.”

    Well, you are precisely the same height/weight as me.

    Granted, I’m overweight…

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Thanks for the feedback on the serious look and squinty eyes.

    When I’m out with girls it’s more my jovial, laughing side. I think I’ll try an experiment and be more hardass just to see what happens.

  • Ion

    “Here’s the key point: if you are “admitted” to a given program, but you don’t get any money, what that really means is YOU DIDN’T GET IN. The people to the left and the right of you will have free rides. You will be a sucker. Borrowing, accumulating debt you can never repay”

    Ugh, definitely. You’re right, and I REALLY don’t want to take out any more loans. I’m going to speak with an advisor once accepted to see exactly what I can do to increase my chances of a free ride. It’s a professional degree technically, I’d be doing an assistantship, and a friend of mine has guaranteed me a job doing so after I get some core content classes done. Where would I be able to get said stipends in order to go to grad school, just in case?

  • pvw

    @HanSolo:

    pvw

    Thanks for the suggestions and imagery. I really haven’t thought of getting a tattoo before but I’ll consider it. I have English and Danish heritage. I looked at the Celtic knots–they look cool. Anyway, I’ll give it some more thought.

    Me: You’re welcome!

    I’m 6′, about 185 to 190. You sound like my gay brother in some of the things you’re suggesting. I should have listened more! lol Though there’s still the present and the future.

    Speaking of a latina and a sports car, a blast from my past:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/217558_10151491330845579_1105821114_n.jpg

    Me: Now that is funny; I suppose your brother, as a gay man, has a greater sensibility of what women might find attractive? Interesting!

    That is funny, you have a picture that fits the exact image I have in mind!

    I think guys can get an edgy look in different ways. Mr. PVW has his through a military-style hair cut and the facial hair. On television, I tend to see that look on actors who are playing cops!

  • pvw

    @HanSolo: Or on actors who are playing certain types of bad guys.

  • Ion

    @ pvw I was sold at cerebral sniper ;-). I totally get what you mean.

    “I love the current pic with the long bangs. But overall I would say I like the serious pics best – your hardass expression is sexy. Not sure what this means – I guess you should channel Clint Eastwood with women. ”

    THIS.

    Also Robert Redford in his prime. http://cdn.ology.com/bundles/ologysocial/up/img/embedded/embedded_4f5ad3d9521489.93474616.jpg

  • pvw

    @Ion: @ pvw I was sold at cerebral sniper . I totally get what you mean.

    Me: The credit goes to Bastiat Blogger–he is the one who first described it, and once he did, I said to myself, that is it!

  • Ramble

    PVW, is that you in the pic?

    I wish the pic was bigger so I could get a better look, but, as it is, I love it.

    I love the dress, the body language and, it seems like you are wearing a sweet smile as well.

    .
    .
    .

    I am sure that you were breathlessly awaiting my approval.

  • Escoffier

    Ion,

    Stipends come from two sources:

    1) The school itself

    2) Foundations that support the program

    The distinction is not that meaningful in the end because the schools mostly get to decide how to spend the money in bucket #2, with exceptions. The main exception is a foundation that gives money to an on-campus center, but the money is controlled by a department and/or certain faculty members. Those people you need to get to know.

    Good luck. Rooting for you. Both because you seem nice and I am a push-over for the tall girls!

  • pvw

    @Ramble, that is not me!!! That is a picture HanSolo included of a Latin woman I’m presuming he once knew–a photograph he might have taken of her next to a sports car!

  • Sassy6519

    The similarities between the Robert Redford picture and HanSolo are insane.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    That’s funny you thought the same as INTJ. Thanks.

    Any update with flakette or 19? JP is dying to know! ;)

    @pvw and Ramble

    If you’re referring to the link, that was a flight attendant I met that came to visit me. Or maybe you were referring to pvw’s avatar?

    And I do need to channel a bit more badass. I was such a nice and good guy back when I went to church. I still am basically, though not as much of a pushover and pedestalizer. I could never turn into a truly bad person so whatever amount I bring will be more of restoring balance kind of thing.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Han Solo,

    Get the 2nd law of thermodynamics tattooed on your bicep. Total badass:

    dS > dE/T

    The babes will eat it up.

    Trust me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      dS > dE/T

      Great example of sexy STEMness!

  • JP

    @HS

    “And I do need to channel a bit more badass. I was such a nice and good guy back when I went to church. I still am basically, though not as much of a pushover and pedestalizer. I could never turn into a truly bad person so whatever amount I bring will be more of restoring balance kind of thing.”

    I suspect that not being a pushover is enough for you give your level of success.

    Why change something that’s working?

  • pvw

    @HanSolo:

    @pvw and Ramble

    If you’re referring to the link, that was a flight attendant I met that came to visit me. Or maybe you were referring to pvw’s avatar?

    Me: I thought Ramble was referring to the image you presented in the link of the young woman next to the sports car. The image in my avatar is of Chet Baker, the jazz musician (big in the 1950s to 1960s) in a picture next to his wife Halima. In the pictures I have seen of them, she seemed to be a woman of color–great contrast between their complexions.

    Here are other images of him. You might like the one of him in the hat:

    http://www.amazon.com/Cool-Chet-Definitive-Anthology-Baker/dp/B0017NTI98

    http://wallpaperscraft.com/download/chet_baker_pipe_jacket_hat_ring_7505/1280×960

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Also…

    I agree with Escoffier’s take on grad school. I didn’t accumulate a single dollar in debt in going to school, nor would I recommend anyone do so.

    I am being more serious in this post.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Me: I know nerds who are not edgy, but they are in he academy. Outside of the academy, I’m drawing here upon my observations of hubby and a few other of his ex-military friends. Now they weren’t special forces like Bastiat Blogger, but they still have the look–crew/buzz cuts, strict exercise regimes they have kept up over the years, plus serious competence at using firearms. So they might be computer science geeks and engineers, but their years of military service gives them an edgyness.

    The point I’m trying to make is that working/studying STEM =/=nerd. If your hubby and friends are edgy looking they are not nerds.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    @Ana: The point I’m trying to make is that working/studying STEM =/=nerd. If your hubby and friends are edgy looking they are not nerds.

    Me: Ah, I see your point. I tend to characterize nerdiness on a continuum to include the quiet, intraverted guys who work in fields that are traditionally nerdy but who have the edgy look I’m describing.

    This reminds me of something someone might have posted here once, a joke, two images side by side: what men hear, what women mean, when some women say they say they find nerdy/geeky men attractive.

    One image was of an obese man wearing the outfit of some character in some science fiction game/show (what men hear), while the other was of a model type of the tall and wiry look, wearing glasses and a very stylish suit (what women mean).

  • Bells

    I’m going to have to cop out from the group of girls who love edgyness. I don’t have an edgy bone in my body. Nor do I need to have an edgy guy. My natural vibe is more of a classy good girl (that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be willing to be dirty in bed- I’m not a prude!)

    Guys should be happy that girls are so diverse in their desires/attraction. I would argue that you don’t need to change your appearance to emulate something that goes against your personality. It all depends on what niche of girls you’re going for

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    One image was of an obese man wearing the outfit of some character in some science fiction game/show (what men hear), while the other was of a model type of the tall and wiry look, wearing glasses and a very stylish suit (what women mean).

    Heh the other guy is the actor that plays Dr Who. I actually will go for the fat guy easier, so I do mean the nerdy type in the male sense, but I’m weird myself,associative mating FTW!

  • Ion

    “Both because you seem nice and I am a push-over for the tall girls!”

    Thanks for the good luck wishes Esco! Glad there’s a guy out there who likes tall women, and doesn’t just tolerate us, constantly wishing we were under 5’5.

    I’m going to make sure I’m careful about taking on debt. I’ll check with the school about any stipends/funds for graduate school next time I call them.

  • Escoffier

    I am 6′ 4″, so at 6″ I can still scowl down at you and raise my right eyebrow (a la Spock) when I need to. It makes a big difference.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    @Bells: Nor do I need to have an edgy guy. My natural vibe is more of a classy good girl (that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be willing to be dirty in bed- I’m not a prude!)

    Me: But liking edgy guys doesn’t have to mean a woman isn’t classy. Edgy in the way I’m imagining means unconventional and yes, with a tough looking masculine vibe, and liking that doesn’t mean that a woman couldn’t be classy and feminine.

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    So thinking further about unconventional in the way we are talking about with HanSolo–a scientist who looks and dresses like a GQ model driving a sports car ; moreover, he has a tat that has some scientific significance that he can talk about cogently–that is not what we tend to think of when one imagines the conventional view of a scientist, and as far as I remember, HanSolo is an astrophysicist?

  • http://en.gravatar/pionervalleywoman pvw

    I misstated what I had in mind: “yes, with a tough looking masculine vibe”

    should read “can include a tough-looking masculine vibe”

  • HanSolo

    I was (still kind of am). I went into consulting afterwards and am currently on a long sabbatical to travel and do stuff I find interesting that’s coming to an end.

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Not to nit pick but if this were the case, your choice would be irrelevant.
    Goodbye homo sapiens.

    Lol.

  • Bells

    Yea I completely agree that liking edgy guys doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not a classy woman. All women have different attraction triggers.

    I’m just putting out a disclaimer for guys who think that they need to look a certain way to get women– even if it goes against their natural personality traits. If you’re masculine and not edgy… that’s still perfectly fine. There will be women out there who would appreciate you regardless.

    Personally, I also love masculine men. I just prefer men that lean towards the conventional than the edgy. I’m offering different point of views for men to incorporate into their decisions.

  • Bells

    Oh… my previous comment was meant for PVW

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    The point I’m trying to make is that working/studying STEM =/=nerd. If your hubby and friends are edgy looking they are not nerds.

    Geek =/= nerd. Nerds can look edgy looking, but geeks can’t. I’d link a picture here of my nerd friend who looks right out of the military (goatie, long hair, cammo pants). Unfortunately, I can’t, because he doesn’t have a Facebook account (he’s one of the uber-nerds holdouts).

  • INTJ

    @ Bells

    I could swear I’ve found my soulmate! :D

  • HanSolo

    @Bells

    That is wise for men to understand, that there are a variety of female attraction triggers and some men will do it for one woman and not another. There are some nearly universal traits that most women find attractive (like confidence and charisma) but others that vary widely. A man will not be able to be attractive to all women and likely not even most. I am more of a niche player for the smaller percentage of women that like the nerdy, thoughtful and romantic type of man with a bit of an outdoors and adventurous edge. As I mentioned before, I do terribly in loud clubs because I am not a good dancer and don’t have that dominating and cool presence that seems to be helpful.

  • Ion

    pvw

    ” I tend to characterize nerdiness on a continuum to include the quiet, intraverted guys who work in fields that are traditionally nerdy but who have the edgy look I’m describing.”

    I tend to do this as well, because it applies to me too. I may not look like a nerd, with coke bottle glasses and a trapperkeeper filled with sheet music, but I’m a bona fide nerd, no doubt. And being a nerd and a girl is not mutually exclusive anyway, like deviating from the “nerd” script is somehow selling out. So, that rule has to apply to guys – guys who are nerdy and have nerdy interests/mentally, but who necessarily giving off the “Where’s Waldo?” vibe.

    When women say they want a nerd, they usually mean a guy who is nerdy and intelligent, but some dominance with it. There are, of course, always exceptions, but women would probably take a nerd with some displays of dominance/edginess over a nerd without any, in many cases.

    Ana

    “Heh the other guy is the actor that plays Dr Who”

    Which one? I admit I had a huge crush on Dr. Who from the first season that aired (the one with Rose, not the one from the 70s lol). :-P

  • Bells

    @INTJ
    aww thank you!

    @Hansolo,
    Exactly. I’m not trying to dispute any of the comments that the girls mentioned earlier about being edgy. However, I also want to encourage the men who are otherwise inclined.
    As for your niche, I would say that I appreciate most of the things on your list– I’m not sure about the romantic part though. It takes a while for me to be open up emotionally. But I’m working through that– I can’t be a lone wolf forever

  • Ion

    “I am 6′ 4″, so at 6″ I can still scowl down at you and raise my right eyebrow (a la Spock) when I need to. It makes a big difference.”

    lol, very true. :-)

  • Josie88

    Can I make a proposal here? Many people blames feminism for the lack of virgin brides and that many women were virgins when they got married before feminism.

    At the same time, most women that got married as virgins were very young, mostly in their late teens or early adulthood and there were no contraceptives (before the 60s).

    Moreover, many men here are no virgins? Therefore, I would like to suggest that men contribute to the downfall of virgin brides as much as feminism. Clearly, these women were by no means raping men and the men were willing and continue to prevent their future husbands from a virgin a bride.

    Every time when a man has premarital sex with a woman, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride. Every time when an adult man has sex with a teenage girl, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride.

  • Josie88

    At the same time, I remember all these 20 – 60 year old men that were trying to persuade me to have sex with them because they like fresh girls.

    I remember this one guy that likes teenage girls because they are the fresh meat and made comments about how old a woman above 25 is too old for him (he is 40).

    I remember this old man told me that it is so hot when a girl just hits puberty and to be her “first teacher.”

    I remember my ex saying that he would always be attracted to teenage girls, and that in ten years, he would no longer be attracted to me ‘cause I will be too old.

    A friend of my told me about how adult men were catcalling her and touching her ever since elementary because she got her period at 10?
    Can one really blame feminism if a 30 year old man is having sex with a 15 year old girl because he likes them fresh? Can feminism be blame for Jerry Sandusky or Roman Polanski having sex with fresh meat?
    Is it feminism fault that Jessica Alba no longer attends a Catholic Church because: “Older men would hit on me, and my youth pastor said it was because I was wearing provocative clothing, when I wasn’t.

    It just made me feel like if I was in any desirable to the opposite sex that it was my fault, and that it made me ashamed of my body and being a woman. “

    If a man wants a virgin bride, he should simply marry a teenage girl, yet most men do not. Why is that?

    Please understand that I am coming from personal observation and experience with men and female friends.

    By no means am I putting down men here on HUS, but I would like to get an answer.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And being a nerd and a girl is not mutually exclusive anyway, like deviating from the “nerd” script is somehow selling out. So, that rule has to apply to guys – guys who are nerdy and have nerdy interests/mentally, but who necessarily giving off the “Where’s Waldo?” vibe.

    Selling out will imply that the nerd look is un purpose. We nerds consider dressing one of those pesky things needed to do to mingle on society so the lack of “style” is not a way to set ourselves apart, we simply don’t care or think in practical sense contacts if the bottle cap lens improve your eyesight better and are cheaper so you can spent the money on things that really matter like action figures then you get the ugly glasses, that is the logical way to look at that.
    This a good essay about why nerds are unpopular and explains it really well: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Which one? I admit I had a huge crush on Dr. Who from the first season that aired (the one with Rose, not the one from the 70s lol).
    The one from the meme is Matt Smith https://www.google.com/search?q=Matt+Smith+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

  • Bells

    @SayWhaat,
    hmm, I think we may approach the virginity issue in different ways. I’ve just been getting so riled up that I’m almost tempted to lose it with any guy! But that would be a really dumb move on my part. And it would hurt me more than I could ever enjoy it. Besides, I’ve already come this far anyways.
    But yeah, I definitely need a lot more practice with dating. One of my problems is that I’m still learning how to be approachable. Being shy and introverted is not helping things along. Once I get over that hurdle, I’ll definitely focus on your advice on emotional escalation. Susan has drilled into our heads so many times: “no sex without relationships”. And having a stable and comfortable emotional foundation would probably make the sex so much better.
    I am a bit worried about a guy freaking out about my V-card. The last guy that I almost was kind of with— didn’t seem to mind at all. But you never know how different men would respond.

    Thank you so much for your response

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Geek =/= nerd. Nerds can look edgy looking, but geeks can’t. I’d link a picture here of my nerd friend who looks right out of the military (goatie, long hair, cammo pants). Unfortunately, I can’t, because he doesn’t have a Facebook account (he’s one of the uber-nerds holdouts).

    You are right about Geek =/= Nerd but not in that way: http://www.greatwhitesnark.com/2010/03/25/difference-between-nerd-dork-and-geek-explained-in-a-venn-diagram/

    Of course take in account that this thing varies in intensity. I’m a nerd but I refined my social skills to a point that is hard to tell, but I have my lapses once in a while and I might not be that smart but obsession should be my lastname, so I do possess all threes. Your friends that can look egdy and normal are more likely geeks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      I bought anise seed yesterday! :)

  • Emily

    >> “No one ever mentions AJ as a favorite. Was he simply too street or ghetto/pimp violent-looking compared to his more clean-cut bandmates?”

    The way it was in Canada:

    Nick- The conventionally attractive heartthrob of the group.

    Brian and Kevin- Both of them had more “nice guy” appeal, although as a 12 year old, I found Kevin’s beard intimidating. Most girls tended to prefer either Nick or Brian.

    AJ- AJ had “bad boy” appeal. There was a minority of girls that liked him, although the girls that preferred him tended to be the wild ones.

    Howie- It was always like “awww, nobody likes Howie :( “, so it makes me very happy that he’s considered the hot one in the Dominican Republic.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Howie- It was always like “awww, nobody likes Howie :( “, so it makes me very happy that he’s considered the hot one in the Dominican Republic.
    I think my friend, president of the backstreet fanclub back in that time, told me that he was the most popular among Latinas. Heh he should have learned to sing in Spanish :)

  • pvw

    @HanSolo: That is wise for men to understand, that there are a variety of female attraction triggers and some men will do it for one woman and not another. There are some nearly universal traits that most women find attractive (like confidence and charisma) but others that vary widely.

    @Bells: I’m just putting out a disclaimer for guys who think that they need to look a certain way to get women– even if it goes against their natural personality traits. If you’re masculine and not edgy… that’s still perfectly fine. There will be women out there who would appreciate you regardless.

    @Ion: When women say they want a nerd, they usually mean a guy who is nerdy and intelligent, but some dominance (edginess) with it.

    Me: Of course, conventional men can be dominant. And I admit, and as I descibed, I notice the edginess (unconventionality) more. It can come in different forms, but when it works, it tends to imply some type of confidence and dominance. In the example I ran with, which Bastiat Blogger suggested, that type of edginess can work, with or without the tat. For some guys, it might mean a different haircut, a different wardrobe, a different car, which says that they are dominant because they are masculine in ways that are unique and striking, unconventional.

    @INTJ: my nerd friend who looks right out of the military (goatie, long hair, cammo pants).

    Me: When I read this, I was reminded of Robert Deniro in the movie, the Mission, in which he plays a former mercenary who becomes a Roman Catholic priest.

    I must admit that when I became Episcopalian after having been raised Roman Catholic, I found appealing its different and unconventional (edgy) vision of the priesthood.

    Some the priests I have known and whom I see at diocesan convention really have something edgy about them; they wear clerical collars, but they have striking high t looks, wedding rings, and pretty wives. I recall that numbers of them came to the priesthood after having worked in fields where they had a fare dose of dominance: investment banking, the military, corporate law.

  • pvw

    I would add:

    Some the priests I have known and whom I see at diocesan convention really have something edgy about them; they wear clerical collars, but they have striking high t looks, wedding rings, and pretty wives. I recall that numbers of them came to the priesthood after having worked in fields where they had a fare dose of dominance: investment banking, the military, corporate law. And for men like these, celibacy was not an option, thank you!

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Gah! 14 hour shift today and I missed out on the fun.

    I feel like a total gloater now, but the high sex drive thing has some drawbacks. Being a teenage incel until 19 was torture. I would constantly loose focus on everything, even my hobbies and have to take care of myself often. Add to that the sexual frustration of not getting attention from women and it got pretty bad sometimes. Also seeing has how the family had 1 computer I had to take pretty high risks to take care of things quickly if you know what I mean. I could get hard for no conscious reason at all and it would distract me until I did something about it.. now imagine that happening an average of 3 to 5x daily. I prayed for alone time in the house as often as possible.

    In regards to the 12x in 24 hours thing, while giving me boasting rights, I don’t recommend it at all. It was painful to go to the bathroom for both parties for like 8 or 9 days after the fact despite the porn-like levels of lube that were sloshed about. I took 2 days off from work because walking sucked!

  • Charlotte

    This was very interesting and gave me some perspective. Obviously things have changed with the change in social standards for women, but it is still so interesting to see exactly what that causes.

    So as usual, I need advice! Please let me know your thoughts. I am obviously neurotic and an over-thinker so ignore that.

    I met this guy on Okcupid (which, due to the advice here, I signed up for). The site is very entertaining, so far I have met 4 guys and 2 have been normal and nice. So 50%. Anyways, this guy is intelligent, active, handsome, blah blah blah. So he messaged me and we started talking, he made immediate references to wanting to meet me and the feeling was reciprocal. We texted back and forth for about a week before the meeting finally came because we both have busy jobs with longer hours that differ from eachother. He asked me to go to lunch – I don’t get a lunch break, I eat at my desk, and then he doesn’t typically leave work til 8pm in which he goes right afterwards to study for his upcoming CFA exam. So he’s a very hard worker, which I respect because I am one too. Anyways, we finally met on Wednesday night and of course I was late because you know, there had to be an arrest on the subway on my way there. He had plans to study with his buddy at 9:15, and I didn’t get there til about 8:25 so we only had a little time. But basically, I saw him and felt an instant connection, you know? And I don’t really ever have that happen, there has only been one guy in my past that I felt the same draw towards. Which is all crazy, because we met ONLINE.
    So we go to grab a drink quickly and our conversation goes really well, lots of back and forth and there isn’t any awkward moments. I could tell that he was super nervous because when we walked in he totally bypassed the hostess and tried to sit at a table and then got all red about it. Once we sat down, they didn’t give us the right menu, so he went up and got it himself, another sign of nerves I believe. So blah blah blah we chat, it’s going well, we are making eye contact the entire time, no looking at phones or texting. He can only have one drink because of his plans with a friend so then he starts asking me what I’m doing this weekend, and he is actually going out of town. So he asks when we can get together again because he’s so sorry that it didn’t work out on timing for the past 2 weeks, and I told him “early next week”. So we leave, he pays (I offered to, of course!) and we are walking and to say goodbye we hug and he says, “so I’ll see you next week, right?” So of course I’m all giddy on this and can’t sleep the entire night due to the adrenaline rush because I’m such a girl.

    So that was Wednesday, I didn’t hear from his yesterday which obviously had me all panicked, but I know that sometimes guys think they sound too eager if they text immediately. Do you guys think he will contact me again? Or he said the “see you again” and making follow up plans thing just to be nice? I just know that we had chemistry and I don’t think that is typically one-sided when you feel that rush, as lame as it sounds. I’m just freaking out over this because I did feel a connection and I’d be curious to learn more about him.

    Let me also say that from our interactions, I can tell that he is a very up-front, honest person. He told me that he has terrible vision and needed to go somewhere where we could see eachother, he didn’t hide his other shortcomings he felt he had during our conversation at all. He told me how hard it was for him to find a job after graduation and how he submitted a million applications. A lot of guys would never admit that because they don’t want to seem undesireable or whatever. So I’m thinking that the fact that he is so up front means that if he said he’d like to see me again two times, it is probably true. But I could also be kidding myself.

    Hmph. The worries of neurosis. And if anyone reads this, I adore you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charlotte

      First of all, studying for the CFA = sky high work ethic and drive. Give the boy a 10 on that trigger! If you’re not familiar with it, the exam is a bear. My husband spent many hours per week studying for each part of it – and it takes three years to get. A lot of preeminent firms now would rather see a CFA than an MBA. Very good move on his part.

      Second, you seriously need to chill. The guy sounds super interested, in fact, some girls would have found it a bit much. It is great that you didn’t, but my guess is he will be in touch to make the next plan. You don’t know each other well enough for meaningless texting, and guys hate that anyway. Sure, a “I had a great time” text would have been nice, but he said all that and more before you said goodbye.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    @Josie88 #548/9

    Read this :

    My letters will have shown you how lovely I am. I don’t dine at Court, I see few people, and take my walks alone, and at every beautiful spot I wish you were there.

    I can’t help loving you more than is good for me; I shall feel all the happier when I see you again. I am always conscious of my nearness to you, your presence never leaves me. In you I have a measure for every woman, for everyone; in your love a measure for all that is to be. Not in the sense that the rest of the world seems obscure tome, on the contrary, your love makes it clear; I see quite clearly what men are like and what they plan, wish, do and enjoy; I don’t grudge them what they have, and comparing is a secret joy to me, possessing as I do such an imperishable treasure.

    You in your household must feel as I often do in my affairs; we often don’t notice objects simply because we don’t choose to look at them, but things acquire an interest as soon as we see clearly the way they are related to each other. For we always like to join in, and the good man takes pleasure in arranging, putting in order and furthering the right and its peaceful rule. Adieu, you whom I love a thousand times.

    This was written by Goethe in 1784. Yes, 1784.

    And if you don’t understand why my answer to you is like this :

    We have learned how to split the atom, and have forgotten the Sermon on the Mount.

    We have come to worship the intricacies of form, while ignoring the ecstasies of structure.

    We have learned how to pleasure one another, and have unlearned the art giving joy.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I know you’re late to the thread, but I’ve already responded to your points. STEM guys have some real challenges, the most important of which is that women are not generally drawn to their work and don’t understand their work. STEM guys have few opportunities to display. In addition, many STEM men tend to be extremely “male-brained” and have personality traits that make it more difficult to connect with women, e.g. introversion. A while back I wrote a post about why STEM guys struggle with women, which I linked to earlier in the thread.

    This is true for the most part, but as always, there are ways around this. I work in pharma R&D, but in those initial pickups where the girl will always eventually ask what I do, I just say “I make drugs”. This always get a little chuckle and intrigue, and then I can go into some gambit about my whole ‘operation’. Being straight forward with what STEM guys do instantly dries up 90% of girls in a heartbeat, so don’t even bother.

    Everything is about spin.

    Work in pharma = Drug dealer or maker
    IT or computer work = Hacker
    Scientist = Blow things up all day
    Mech. Eng = Tony Stark/Iron Man double (everyone has seen that movie)

    etc. etc. In some of these fields you can end up making just as much money as a lawyer or some doctors, but the status isn’t preordained. Connect it to something slightly edgy and the tingle happens.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      etc. etc. In some of these fields you can end up making just as much money as a lawyer or some doctors, but the status isn’t preordained. Connect it to something slightly edgy and the tingle happens.

      That’s great advice for guys. Inside the wit, there’s just a tad of self-deprecation, which is always charming if done well – it implies rock solid self-confidence.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @Han Solo’s bull comment

    I am a taurus. May 1st in fact. Maybe that explains the high sex drive.

    @Sassy

    Maul me please!

  • JP

    I suspect that tattoos are peaking as a social trend.

    They strike me as a classic Unraveling/K-cycle fall/consumer credit expansion cultural event.

  • Ion

    “Every time when a man has premarital sex with a woman, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride. Every time when an adult man has sex with a teenage girl, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride.”

    Good point, and I agree generally. But how can feminism be the solution when it’s also the root cause? The system of “Sexual freedom” punishes the good girls the most.

    ” Can feminism be blame for Jerry Sandusky or Roman Polanski having sex with fresh meat?”

    Definitely not. But I still don’t see how feminism is helping if it is encouraging teenage girls to “have fun” and express their individuality/sexuality because it’s “healthy” now to act on impulse. All it says is that teenage girls want more freedom of sexual expression; even teenagers and little girls want sex.

    The solution is neither “how things were” or feminism. But what are your thoughts Josie?

  • JP

    Everybody does know that most attorneys sit in an office and plays with paper right?

    Doing basic STEM things is often more interesting.

    In fact, having washed glassware and autoclaved things in a biotech lab, I can confirm this.

  • Ion

    Ana re the link you gave on nerds

    “So if intelligence in itself is not a factor in popularity, why are smart kids so consistently unpopular? The answer, I think, is that they don’t really want to be popular.”

    I agree 100%. I think a lot of introverts fit into this camp. Never had a drive to be popular, nor to have a long line of acquaintances. Not that I hated the popular kids, I didn’t. Just didn’t care one way or another about what they were doing.

    “We nerds consider dressing one of those pesky things needed to do to mingle on society so the lack of “style” is not a way to set ourselves apart, we simply don’t care ”

    I agree. The “not caring” how I see it is, rarely spend over $20 on an article of clothing, never cared what was in style or not (made my own clothes even), definitely HAD a style. Just never cared about how popular it made me. So I get your point. If I see a guy with a logo/label on, I’m automatically turned off to this day, if he dresses metrosexual like spends a lot of money on his clothes, I’m turned off. If he’s a pasty nerd with a batman t-shirt, I also don’t notice him.

    I think nerd/rebellion culture is as contrived as anything else. I’m more likely to be attracted to a guy who gets his clothes from Walmart, or looks like he does, than if he gives off a very strong “nerd” vibe, or a manicured vibe.

    I guess “edginess” I like is a guy who has a cool, calm factor to him, who is attractive to me, but doesn’t care too much about it. I’d be interested to see what myers-briggs says about who we’re attracted to and why.

  • JP

    “First of all, studying for the CFA = sky high work ethic and drive. Give the boy a 10 on that trigger! If you’re not familiar with it, the exam is a bear. My husband spent many hours per week studying for each part of it – and it takes three years to get. A lot of preeminent firms now would rather see a CFA than an MBA.”

    Hmmmm.

    Maybe I’ll do this instead of getting a medical degree or getting a Harvard MBA.

  • Lokland

    “Thanks for pointing this out.”

    Not a problem.

  • pvw

    @Susan:
    How interesting that people are suggesting a tattoo for HanSolo! I think small and tasteful ones are sexy (no half sleeves, no meaningless symbols). For some reason, I really like a word or two tattooed on the inside of a wrist.

    dS > dE/T

    Great example of sexy STEMness!

    Me: Add in language skills (missionary work in Mexico?), say “hello” to GQ Mexico/Latin America?

  • Jason773

    JP,

    Everybody does know that most attorneys sit in an office and plays with paper right?

    Most smart people know this, but all you have to do is look at the media and it’s easy to see wherethe divide comes from. Every time an engineer or scientist is a character on a TV show he seems to be shy/nerdy/introverted/meek or some combination there of. Take doctor or lawyer shows (House, ER, Suits, etc.) and all of the characters are having crazy workplace drama, dealing with dangerous or life threatening situations daily and constantly having witty banter with clients, patients and colleagues. That influence goes a long way.

  • Russ in Texas

    JP:

    I agree. Tattoos are about as edgy to me as a honda civic.

    I am very definitely a nerd, not a geek. Though I have written a fantasy novel, where I am known as more than “that dude who drinks espresso” at Starbucks it’s for multiple incredibly obscure academic papers, and if you want to know about the thing I work on, sooner or later you’re going to have to deal with me. :) I get the majority of my threads through a clothier. So there may be a general trend towards cheap clothes and a disdain for personal appearance, but I don’t think it’s universal. I find that more common as a geek trait than a nerd one.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    Girls are very interested in observing the results of that competition so that they know who the top males are. This is generally obvious by about fifth grade.

    Hi there, how’s it going? It’s been awhile! I just had a quick note on this. Over the Christmas-New Years season, I met up with an old classmate from elementary school. This particular classmate was a ladies’ man at the age of 8, and he actually told us he’d deleted his facebook a couple years ago because women were going at each other over him. The guy flunked out of college and sort of took awhile to get his life started (at age 25, he’s just now joining the army) but that hasn’t stopped the ladies from fawning over him. One of my other old classmates, who has a boyfriend, was practically doing just that.

    I guess what I’m saying is I’m not sure occupational status is the first and foremost attraction trigger for women. Maybe it is in some circles, but probably not where I come from. I’m actually starting to think looks are huge, but that sort of goes against Manosphere wisdom and it’s not something I want to have a huge debate about, since I’m not sure I can back up that claim with enough evidence. For now it’s just a hunch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Good to see you!

      As I noted earlier, I didn’t just make this up, it’s not an editorial comment. For anyone who is interested, here is my source:

      The Evolution of Desire, David Buss

      “#1 attribute important to females:

      ECONOMIC CAPACITY

      Females prefer males who offer resources. Resources have to be accruable, defensible and controllable by men.

      …Beauty is not just important for reproductive value. It also affects a man’s social status. An attractive woman is a signal of status to same-sex competitors and to other potential mates.

      Marriage patterns in America confirm that men with the most resources can most easily actualize their preferences. Men with high occupational status marry more attractive women than those who are low in occupational status. Occupational status is the best predictor of the attractiveness a man can get.”

      Of course, you’re free to disagree with Buss.

  • Russ in Texas

    I don’t know about the pure dominance thing. I generally had the respect of the girls, and dated the folks I wanted to date (which was almost never the “in” crowd, because let’s face it, most of those people get their sense of identity from staring at a box five hours a night); but I was the nerd outsider at lunch who literally had nobody to sit with and was in danger of happily throwing down with the entire wrestling team on any given Wednesday. About as far from “winning the male dominance game” as it gets…but getting a date was a complete non-problem.

  • Iggles

    @ Ion:

    I agree 100%. I think a lot of introverts fit into this camp. Never had a drive to be popular, nor to have a long line of acquaintances.

    + 1

    I’d rather have 3 close friends than 20 acquaintances!

    If I see a guy with a logo/label on, I’m automatically turned off to this day, if he dresses metrosexual like spends a lot of money on his clothes, I’m turned off. If he’s a pasty nerd with a batman t-shirt, I also don’t notice him.

    Same here. I’ve never been impressed by guys wearing labels!! And the metrosexual style turns me off completely. A well dressed guy is nice, but one who get manicures, slathers his hair in product, and shapes his eyebrows is gross!

    @ Susan:

    Second, you seriously need to chill. The guy sounds super interested, in fact, some girls would have found it a bit much. It is great that you didn’t, but my guess is he will be in touch to make the next plan.

    Great advice here! It looks like things are headed for a great start. Not getting too anxious between the next date is a must in the early phases of dating. This guy has shown interest and has a busy schedule. Play it by air. You’ll find out whether he’s consistent or flaky in time.

  • Bells

    I think that a problem that is coming up involves the subjective interpretation of edginess. However, the term edgy is commonly used to refer to someone who has an appeal that hints towards danger or a dark side.

    On the other hand, I really like Ion’s definition of edginess. Men who have a cool, calm, and yet nonchalant demeanor to them sounds awesome to me but I personally wouldn’t classify that as being edgy.

    But my disclaimer still stands, if you don’t have an edgy personality.. then don’t feel pressured to re-design your appearance just to come off a certain way. Instead, I think men should work with their natural traits- emphasize your abilities in order to be unique and interesting to women.

    Women are attracted to all sorts of men. Nature did an awesome job at providing diversity.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    I suppose Buss and I will have to agree to disagree. ;-)

  • Russ in Texas

    I agree with Bells. No amount of tattooing is a substitute for knowing yourself and being comfortable in your own skin.

  • OffTheCuff

    Josie – Which man here has insisted on a virgin bride? Did you mistake us for some sort of fundie blog?

    Bells: “I am a bit worried about a guy freaking out about my V-card”

    Don’t worry about it, SayWhaat’s experience is not typical, as she was steeped in NYC culture. There’s no need to state you’re a virgin if it bugs you. You can always say nothing, until your clothes are off, and you’re both ready and raring to go. Few men will turn it down at that point.

  • JP

    @Bells:

    “Bells: “I am a bit worried about a guy freaking out about my V-card”

    One reason is that they don’t want you to get stuck to them like velcro.

    So, a solution is to find someone who wants a LTR, in which the velcro issue is a potential positive.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Ion #569

    Nice one.

    *********************************************************************
    Charlotte.

    I could tell that he was super nervous because when we walked in he totally bypassed the hostess and tried to sit at a table and then got all red about it. Once we sat down, they didn’t give us the right menu, so he went up and got it himself, another sign of nerves I believe.

    Get him in a situation where he is doing something active, like a long drive in the countryside, or fixing the kettle, or shooting at moths -flying around a light- with a water-pistol.

    It takes his apprehension away. You can compliment him. There are ample opportunities for humor. It breaks the tedium.

    The best I date I ever went on, did not involve dinner and coffee. I took her to a rundown church in Church Street, Pretoria. She stared at the building for the longest time.

    Then I took her to the Pretoria Academic Hospital, and its main hallway with its plaques where patients and children honored their doctors and parents.

    Poignant.

    On the way out I told her about a nurse (true story btw) that went home via the graveyard, and just so happened to be accosted by a robber. Quick of mind she told him :

    “I’m not even dead two days, and you’re already trying to charge me graveyard fees ?!”

    The robber ran like hell.

    Anyway, we went to a little hill on the outskirts of Pretoria; and beside us in the distance was the lit-up aircraft carrier-like structure that is the University of South Africa; behind us the stoic implacability of the Voortrekker Monument; and in front of us the the night lights of Pretoria. Ahhhh, the night lights of Pretoria.

    It was grand.

    We watched. We talked … and then I took her home.

    A great night.

    See if you two can do the same.

    ******************************************************************

    Suzan,

    You serious about CFA vs MBA ? I’m considering doing that myself. I know its three exams you write, and one must study about 250 hours for every one of them. That means over ten weeks you must do 25 hours a week, or 3 hours a night from Mon-Fri (=15 hours), and then another 10 hours over the week-end. That sounds doable.

    The other qualification I’ve heard about is CMT (Chartered Market Technician). It’s them guys that check how stock-market charts go zig-zag, so that they tell some quant how they’re gonna zag-zig. Apparently there’s only 900 of them in the world.

    I wonder why. I like staring at charts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      I know that the CFA is gaining huge popularity among employers. In fact, when I went to b-school, quite a few of the students had come out of two year rotational programs on Wall St. It was a two-year gig and then you go to b-school. Now those same firms often encourage their best young employees to skip the MBA and stick around, earning a CFA instead.

      I think for some disciplines within investment banking you still need the MBA, and this preference may vary from firm to firm. But considering the cost of an MBA today, it’s worth thinking about.

      I read that Harvard Business School’s apps have been down the last year or two. I don’t know if that’s true of all b-schools or just them. They got caught resting on their case study laurels when other programs got a lot more technical. They’re addressing it now, but it wouldn’t be my top choice today. I should know about Wharton, but I haven’t looked it up.

      Of course, this could be very different in S. Africa as well.

  • OffTheCuff

    All men need some sort of edge to them, otherwise they are grey and asexual, and lots of things qualify as that.

    That edge is called risk-taking.

    Tattoos used to be a social risk (but not so much anymore, unless you have a face tattoo). Maybe an edge is a man running his own business, a financial one. Maybe it’s physical like competitive sports, or, mountain-climbing. My software engineer friend from college, used to street-race as a kid and can out drive anyone. He now owns two modern muscle cars.

    Reducing “edge” to mere tattoos or a look, really dilutes the concept.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Reducing “edge” to mere tattoos or a look, really dilutes the concept.

      Agreed. I think what an edge says to women is “He’s his own man.”

  • Bells

    @OffTheCuff,
    “All men need some sort of edge to them, otherwise they are grey and asexual, and lots of things qualify as that.

    That edge is called risk-taking.”

    You make a really good point. And I completely agree with that. Risk-taking is important and very attractive to women. I was just pointing out that it should spur from the man’s natural interests and talents. Rather than some surfaced emulation that contradicts their abilities.

  • Pingback: The Shift In Mate Preferences - The Spearhead

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Wow, I was really reading those lists wrong. I though the first one was males traits, and left list women. (The both were male ranking traits in prospective women)

    And the link has the ranked husband traits. Thanks.

  • INTJ

    @ Josie88

    Every time when a man has premarital sex with a woman, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride. Every time when an adult man has sex with a teenage girl, he is in fact denying her future husband a virgin bride.

    It’s true. Which was why when Zach talked about how great the current culture is for guys, another commenter said to him (paraphrasing) “I’m glad it’s working out for you. Thanks for sleeping with our future wives.”

  • JP

    “I think for some disciplines within investment banking you still need the MBA, and this preference may vary from firm to firm. But considering the cost of an MBA today, it’s worth thinking about.”

    My law school roommate went into I-banking at first.

    He learned pretty quickly that the hours were brutal even if the pay was great.

  • INTJ

    @ Josie88

    If a man wants a virgin bride, he should simply marry a teenage girl, yet most men do not. Why is that?

    Is that true? Within the religious subcultures where men want virgin brides, are they really averse to marrying young?

    I certainly wouldn’t have any objection to it, but it’s a moot point given that I don’t want a virgin bride (just somebody with a very low partner count), and that I’m an atheist, so nobody in her late teens or early 20s would be interested in marrying me right now.

  • Sassy6519

    Since the topic of “edge” has been brought up again, I figured I would repost what I had written about my idea of edge in a man. I wrote this in a thread sometime last year.

    “Since I’m the person who brought up the idea of being attracted to men with an “edge”, I guess I should offer up my definition of it.

    A man with an edge, to me, is considered very masculine and “rugged”. He has traits about him or participates in certain activities that seem to create the ever elusive “tingle” in women. All of the women I have known have been attracted to some element of “edge” in their men. Some edgy traits or behaviors include:

    -driving a motorcycle (something about this is a definite tingle inducer)

    -Knowing how to fight or specializing in a specific combat art (boxing, muay thai, mixed martial arts.)

    -Playing in a band, or expertise in a traditional band instrument (guitar, bass, drums). Being the lead singer also works.

    -being an athlete, typically in the designated most masculine sports (baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer)

    -participating in extreme non-mainstream sports (bmx, snowboarding, skateboarding, etc)

    -having an edgy sense of style or elements on the body. The most common examples would be tattoos and body piercings.

    -being classified as a “lone wolf” or “loner”

    -having a rugged appearance (beard or 5 o’clock shadow, faded or distressed jeans, a motorcycle jacket, etc)

    Most men who are classified as “edgy” typically have one or more of these traits. It’s also not a coincidence that a lot of “bad boys” or “players” have one or more of these elements. I can’t speak for all women, but having at least one of the above traits is a tingle inducing factor.

    One of the few guys that I have ever tingled for on first sight (literally) was a guy that was very handsome who also had a 5 0′ clock shadow, a lip ring, played the drums in a band, and skateboarded. The icing on the cake was that he was genuinely a nice guy.”

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    You are right about Geek =/= Nerd but not in that way: http://www.greatwhitesnark.com/2010/03/25/difference-between-nerd-dork-and-geek-explained-in-a-venn-diagram/

    Of course take in account that this thing varies in intensity. I’m a nerd but I refined my social skills to a point that is hard to tell, but I have my lapses once in a while and I might not be that smart but obsession should be my lastname, so I do possess all threes. Your friends that can look egdy and normal are more likely geeks.

    He looks edgy, but not normal. :D The edginess is definitely there (aside from what I mentioned earlier, he’s about six feet tall and worked as a park ranger during the summer). However, he’s definitely a nerd. He isn’t big on gadgets, anime, or similar stuff, like geeks tend to be (he doesn’t even own a smart-phone). He also has had zero success with girls (well, we do tease him about being a hand-holding slut because he went on dates with several girls as a freshman in high school, and held hands with them).

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    “. Which was why when Zach talked about how great the current culture is for guys, another commenter said to him (paraphrasing) “I’m glad it’s working out for you. Thanks for sleeping with our future wives.””

    It would do you some good to keep in mind that there are lots of women. Lots, like literally 1/2 the population.

  • JP

    From that Spearhead Article:

    “First, the survey respondents are all undergrads at the Universities of Iowa, Washington, Virginia, and Penn State. Without doing the demographic spade-work, I’ll go out on a limb here and assume that the populations of those colleges are likely more white, middle class to UMC, female, and feminized (by virtue of their success in a feminized education system) than is your average 18-22 year old American.

    Third, the hothouse social clime of the modern secular university is more an extension of high school than it is reflective of the real world at large. I suspect that the preferences of both young men and women shift markedly with the passage of time (i.e., both sexes completing their physical/mental maturation processes, men’s SMP value steadily increasing, women’s SMP value peaking), upon graduation, and upon transition to the real world of adult relationships and behaviors.”

    He’s talking about Penn State.

    As in the living beating heart of Pensyltucky.

    Penn State is…different.

    At least when I was there in the 90’s, the student body was quite religious and quite conservative for a “modern secular university”.

    The guy across the hall from me went into a Catholic monastery (where he still is today). The guy down the hall from me dove into conservative Judaism. My roommate because a Catholic priest (and then got married…which unpriested him).

    And the there were the evangelicals…who prayed and laid on hands, which is what my friend from high school who thought the world was ending was doing.

    So, I don’t think this was the right student population if you wanted to get the pulse of American youth.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “@INTJ

    “. Which was why when Zach talked about how great the current culture is for guys, another commenter said to him (paraphrasing) “I’m glad it’s working out for you. Thanks for sleeping with our future wives.””

    It would do you some good to keep in mind that there are lots of women. Lots, like literally 1/2 the population.”

    And I’ve noticed that there are always seem to be more coming from somewhere.

    It’s simply the strangest thing.

    Almost as if people keep making *new* women somehow.

  • Lokland

    @JP

    I personally think theres a factory in the mountains and they float them down the river.
    And yes, that factory is run be elves.

  • INTJ

    @ JP, Lokland

    Yes, but they just don’t make them like that anymore. :P

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    I disagree.

    I suspect that they are grown somewhere, like Christmas trees.

    Entire fields full of growing women as far as the eye can see.

    Although you *could* be right about the mountains.

    I think that their clothing is manufactured, so you could also be right about the elves.

  • Tasmin

    @Lokland
    “I personally think theres a factory in the mountains and they float them down the river.
    And yes, that factory is run be elves.”

    Which is why spend every other weekend in the mountains looking for that factory. I will keep you posted. But honestly, I question this theory as it seems where I live most women are coming upstream in the river from all of those flat fly-over states to the east. Having “midwestern values” is just some of the cake-eating common in these parts.

  • JP

    @Tasmin:

    I’m telling you that there *is* no factory.

    You might find where they make the girl clothes, but you won’t find the actual women there.

  • Cooper

    “Although you *could* be right about the mountains.”

    http://youtu.be/6jamrudGfC4

  • Lokland

    @JP

    “Entire fields full of growing women as far as the eye can see.”

    Interesting theory but where are these fields?

    “I think that their clothing is manufactured, so you could also be right about the elves.”

    Definitely, no way some of that stuff is natural.

  • Russ in Texas

    A Nerd is someone who is passionate about learning/being smart/academia.

    A Geek is someone who is passionate about some particular area or subject, often an obscure or difficult one.

    A Dork is someone who has difficulty with common social expectations/interactions.

    —-
    I have always found this to be an appropriate definition. I’ve written fantasy, live in and around “genre” subcultures. Have never attended a Con, and am moved by the mythopoetics of a given book or show. Nerd. My eyes glaze over at fanboys/fangirls.

    My friend who’s an artist goes “squee” over every trivial fan discussion regarding a given show, and knows all the details in tiny variety. Her eyes glaze over at nerds who discuss mythopoetics or are seriously interested in the survival of epic poetry and its themes inside the fantasy or scifi genres. Geek.

    Then there are men who get a tatto because they think it will get them laid. Dork.

  • Lokland

    @Tasmin

    “But honestly, I question this theory as it seems where I live most women are coming upstream in the river from all of those flat fly-over states to the east. ”

    Dammit Tas, that torps my theory.

    @Coop

    Rofl. First big laugh of the day. Thank you.

  • Cooper

    You guys had that link coming at: mountians. born. and ‘as the eye can see’
    (and elves)

    hahah

  • Tasmin

    @Cooper
    re: video. I used to work in that shop. Granted the director took dramatic liberties, but its pretty damn close.

    @JP
    Maybe so. And maybe there is no such thing as “midwestern values” or even the midwest, but they are coming from somewhere and when I’m running in the mountains, I’m still going to keep my eyes peeled just in case. FTR, I grew up in Christmas Tree country; no girl-making there either.

    Either way, I know why they come here: dudes galore. That post a long while back about women heading west where the odds are better is true. Land o the lumberjack poets, silicon valley surfers, and rock climbing restauranteurs.

    I don’t care where they make em as long as they keep coming – preferably without their Jayhawk Greek League Flag Football Champion college boyfriend in tow, of course. No need to bring sand to the beach. Plus this country needs the next generation of Sorghum farmers to uphold the tradition.

  • Guavaberry

    For all the talk in the manosphere for men wanting “Submissive, sweet, easygoing and pleasant pretty women” I’m constantly surrounded by examples of the opposite of this happening. I know somebody is gonna go with saying that is “female solipism” and “your anecdotes do not count as data”. But as PUA’s usually use their “field knowledge” to go against “common knowledge” I’m gonna say that men do not know what they want either.

    In some cases it comes down to the not-so-extroverted, bitchy or promiscuous girls not getting as much attention as your queen bees or drama queens, but I’ve seen way to many pretty, submissive and sweet girls being traded or cheated on for bitchier, drama-seeking girls.

  • Guavaberry

    Am I in moderation or my comment just didn’t get posted?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3
  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:

    Spaghetti monsters?

    Tea cups?

    Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanly Cup?

    JC.

    This is who you believe in???

    https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1045&bih=557&q=nsync+JC

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    … -driving a motorcycle (something about this is a definite tingle inducer) …

    :-D

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Guavaberry

    For all the talk in the manosphere for men wanting “Submissive, sweet, easygoing and pleasant pretty women” I’m constantly surrounded by examples of the opposite of this happening.

    You’re surrounded by men who want aggressive, nasty, shit-kicking and taking names, tankgrrrrrl ugly women???

    You need to move out of New Jersey pronto.

  • Guavaberry

    @M3, I actually live in Texas and I know a friend who broke up with his very sweet and pretty girlfriend to later date a 5 yrs older than him girl who just moved down from Jersey. Not that there is anything wrong with the new girl, but it just puzzles me.

  • INTJ

    @ Guavaberry

    I think both sexes are starting to seek out narcissists. The good guys and girls lose out. What we need is for good people to start being selective with their goodness, being good only to each other and stop letting the narcissists freeload off of their goodness.

  • JP

    @Cooper

    “”“Although you *could* be right about the mountains.”

    http://youtu.be/6jamrudGfC4

    Uh, Cooper.

    Those weren’t.

    Uh.

    You know.

    Women.

  • Tasmin

    @M3
    Ah of course, they come from China.

  • Tasmin

    @Guavaberry
    “I know a friend who broke up with his very sweet and pretty girlfriend to later date a 5 yrs older than him girl who just moved down from Jersey.”

    And on this very thread we have a lady who broke it off with a “catch” due to an imbalance in sex drives. People enter into and exit relationships for all kinds of reasons. We rarely have all the information. Perhaps your friend isn’t that great of a guy either. In any case I agree that plenty of men are lacking in self-awareness and alignment of wants and priorities, but lets keep in mind that for a real LTR that may lead to marriage, those guy “wants” are fairly consistent.

    People will take plenty of detours, go into dead-ends, etc. to indulge themselves, chase unicorns, or just to get laid but when it comes to the long game, unless a man feels he has limited options, most will avoid “bitchier, drama-seeking girls.” And the ones who do go down that path usually end up gelded and/or divorced and over a barrel (redundant).

    I’m with INTJ. That sweet and pretty woman who was dating this friend of yours who bailed for the older Jersey gal, well, the sweet and pretty girl picked HIM. Perhaps she has some work to do on aiming her qualities and desires toward men who value those things. She’s no victim. This actually resembles the pattern of sweet pretty women dating jerks then settling for nice guys as much as it suggests that men demonstrate some preference for drama-bitchy. Keep in mind this is about what men want in a wife not a fling or to “date”.

    If she is sweet and pretty, her biggest challenge is filtering. These cases are more about building (lacking) skills and awareness in attraction and filtering than they are about what the majority of men want in a WIFE.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I bought anise seed yesterday!

    Neat! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

    If he’s a pasty nerd with a batman t-shirt, I also don’t notice him.

    Except that he in at least 50 % he is wearing that T-shirt not because he wants a label but because “Hey batman T-Shirt!” Nerds do silly things because they feel nice, regardless of how others perceive it.

    Most smart people know this, but all you have to do is look at the media and it’s easy to see wherethe divide comes from. Every time an engineer or scientist is a character on a TV show he seems to be shy/nerdy/introverted/meek or some combination there of.

    Yeah scientist are where MAD , trying to take over the world or completely unsexy. Very few middle of the road ones.

    For all the talk in the manosphere for men wanting “Submissive, sweet, easygoing and pleasant pretty women” I’m constantly surrounded by examples of the opposite of this happening. I know somebody is gonna go with saying that is “female solipism” and “your anecdotes do not count as data”. But as PUA’s usually use their “field knowledge” to go against “common knowledge” I’m gonna say that men do not know what they want either.

    You are missing something they want a SEXY woman that is sweet and easy going…is a bit like when women say they want a nice guy they mean an attractive guy that is nice.
    Attractive asshole = hot bitch = getting whatever they want from the actual SMP.

  • Just a thought

    Looks at Hans Solo’s picture. Why is he even on here? He’s unspeakably hot. He ought to be giving us all advice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just a thought

      Looks at Hans Solo’s picture. Why is he even on here? He’s unspeakably hot. He ought to be giving us all advice.

      Because he is looking for true love and having a hard time finding it. Even beautiful people struggle in relationships, they just do it with other beautiful people.

  • OffTheCuff

    Han can give men solid advice on pickup – but this is a relationship blog. Pickup is the only the first step. Everyone has something to contribute and/or learn.

  • Charlotte

    Okay, I knew I was totally overreacting but I tend to get like this since I’ve had a history of dating douchebags who do NOT go by what they say…their word is good as nothing. So when someone says “I’ll see you next week” it is possible that they really mean it?
    I hope he’s not into superfluous texting and he will text me to make plans on Sunday or tomorrow. Because I didn’t hear from him today either and of course, still worrying. I justfelt a connection. Susan, I’m glad to hear that you think he showed a lot of interest…what do you think was the indicator in what I said?

    He’s going out of town with a guy friend to Atlantic City b/c he has a comped room there and he admittedly likes to gamble a bit. Hey, we all do our thing. So there really is no reason for him to be in touch with me until make actual plans. And I wouldn’t have had time to talk to him either today as I was working on a photoshoot the entire day. But of course, I still worry.

    I need to chill, I really gotta shake this neurotic tendency, but again, I do think it is because I have had a history of men not following their word.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charlotte

      I need to chill, I really gotta shake this neurotic tendency, but again, I do think it is because I have had a history of men not following their word.

      You need to adopt a new mindset. Look at it this way. If he flakes, that means he was never sincere in the first place – all that feedback was pure BS. In other words, he’d be doing you a favor by taking himself out of the running. Once a guy flakes without a good reason, never, ever give him another shot. (I’d say the same to guys about girls.) If you hear from him in two weeks telling you how busy he is, don’t respond. At this stage, filters are critically important.

      You’ve met him once, your investment is very low at this point. Don’t let your emotions run away with you. You need to wait and see what he does. The ball is in his court.

      I think he does like you because that doesn’t sound like player behavior to me, and the stories I’ve heard of similar male behavior have generally meant that the guy is looking for a relationship with the right girl.

  • OffTheCuff

    Charlotte – you can’t take people at their word when it’s expressed so vaguely. You’re reading too much into it. “See you next week”, might very well mean “I’m gone *until* next week” or it might mean “I’ll text later”.

    If I say “see ya!” to a friend, it probably means “goodbye” rather than “I have explicit plans to visit you in person quite soon, so, you can expect an invite”.

  • Ion

    “You are missing something they want a SEXY woman that is sweet and easy going…is a bit like when women say they want a nice guy they mean an attractive guy that is nice.”

    Yep! Though in some (rare?) cases I think they avoid them as to not face any subconscious pressure to commit to her. They don’t want the perfect girl now, they want her later. By the time they want a sexy woman that is sweet and easy going, she’s too young to want them back.

    “Attractive asshole = hot bitch = getting whatever they want from the actual SMP.”

    Exactly. Maybe “hot bitch” offers great sex, but you’re not morally pressured to commit. Sweet girl doesn’t see that though, she sees great guys who like promiscuous bitches.

  • Mike C

    I’m actually starting to think looks are huge, but that sort of goes against Manosphere wisdom and it’s not something I want to have a huge debate about, since I’m not sure I can back up that claim with enough evidence. For now it’s just a hunch.

    Hi Olive,

    I hope you doing well!

    For the record, that isn’t Manosphere wisdom. I think it would be inaccurate to say the settled wisdom is “looks don’t matter”. Actually, I’d say there is an ongoing furious debate about Game versus Looks and whether or not super tight Game can completely make up for lack of looks. One of the top male bloggers would be the first to say looks matter tremendously. So I agree with you that looks are huge in terms of female attraction/attention, and I say that from direct personal experience having lost 60 pounds at 22 and spending alot of effort maximizing my appearance at that age. But I think looks are a lot like a resume/credentials. They get you the interview, but if you completely botch the interview, you won’t get the job.

    To your example, yeah, just about any guy knows the “loser” guy with no occupational status who looks really good or has tight Game and does really well with women. It does make sense that those are more likely women pursuing STR instead of LTRs with Dad potential.

  • HanSolo

    @Just A Thought

    Looks at Hans Solo’s picture. Why is he even on here? He’s unspeakably hot. He ought to be giving us all advice.

    First of all, thank you for thinking I’m hot. There were times where I actually wondered if I was not good looking do to lack of success (as I define it) with women, especially as a teen.

    Some explanation:

    I was a shy kid, able at sports (and school) but without swagger so I didn’t get much attention from girls. As a teen I had acne and then got big glasses. In high school I was one of the better players on our baseball team but the few groupies we had were interested in the more typical jock types on the team, even though I was about as good as them (better than some and worse than others).

    I also had a lot of male-shaming BS pumped into me and as the good-hearted person I am decided I wanted to be even nicer to women to right the wrongs they suffered from (some real, some not). Add to this being religious where the sex-shaming was fairly high and any touching a girl beyond a kiss was considered a sin (even passionate kissing was by some).

    So, I had a lot anti-game drilled into me by my environment. On top of that I am quite romantic at heart and I would get huge crushes on girls quickly and though I could get a date with a lot of attractive girls once I got to college (high school pretty much sucked but my acne cleared up by freshman year) but would come on too strong too soon, calling too often, asking out too often, basically showing that I was smitten. So, tons of first dates but not so many 4th dates or later.

    After being dumped by a gf of a year in grad school that I wanted to marry, I was devastated emotionally. I was so in love with her and wanted to marry her but she was the emotionally aloof type and I was the hopeless romantic. She fell in love with me to a degree but I was always a couple or 5 steps ahead of her and figured that I just needed to do more nice stuff for her to win her over. Big mistake. Anyway, emotionally devastated, I searched for answers, even “crazy” stuff like whether our signs weren’t compatible (actually they were lol). I came upon Double Your Dating and bought it after reading the promotional material and seeing that the advice pretty much matched the times in my life where I had been successful with women–mostly when I wasn’t that interested in them and thus didn’t act all needy and infatuated around them.

    Reading that kind of stuff gradually helped me remove some of the bad ideas from my head but the ingrained romantic reflexes, both innate and probably due to societal programming took much longer to change and still aren’t fully and may never be. Whereas I used to be on the needy side of the spectrum, I would say I’m emotionally about average right now, though in my mind I know what I “should” do and sometimes follow that advice and override what my emotions would dictate.

    To make it short, I left my church, had a bunch of sex, had some short-lived gf’s along the way, was too picky, still too needy though much improved, and think I have refined (hacked off some of) my expectations enough by now and improved my game to nearly the point where I think I can find and keep a good gf and eventually get married.

    Why I’m here?

    1) I find the stuff discussed here and at similar places fascinating
    2) I enjoy the posts and comments and interaction with many of the people–no, I don’t always agree but that’s fine
    3) I have learned quite a bit more about human nature and myself and applied some of that
    4) I can offer my insight and experiences for others to learn from, and I learn more about myself as I share them and think about them and get feedback from others. I like to help both the men and women in some small ways on here.

    As to your implication that because I’m good looking (to whatever extent that is true) that I should have no problem in finding a woman I’ll offer a few points:

    1) A man’s looks are less important to women than a woman’s are to men
    2) Anti-game will soon kill that attraction that she initially felt for the good-looking man
    3) Charisma and confidence (backed up by substance for the long term) will be much more attractive to women than a man’s looks (within reason)
    4) Too many women have become masculinized (mirroring how I was too feminized or nice-ified). Basically, I’m not gay so I don’t want a man (with boobs).

  • JP

    @Han Solo:

    “After being dumped by a gf of a year in grad school that I wanted to marry, I was devastated emotionally. I was so in love with her and wanted to marry her but she was the emotionally aloof type and I was the hopeless romantic. She fell in love with me to a degree but I was always a couple or 5 steps ahead of her and figured that I just needed to do more nice stuff for her to win her over.”

    There is nothing more annoying than being more into a girl you are dating than she is into you.

    However, I tend to get really, really annoyed by this and break up with them in frustration and never try to date them again.

    I recommend my approach the next time you experience this problem.

  • Damien Vulaume

    Facts and figures… Science doesn’t add up when it comes to ”love”. Although it does when talking about general trends, i/e divorce rates, gender, attractions cues, etc. By the way, Susan, I misunderstood what you meant by “a generation”. Yes, by and large, 20 years in age difference in a relationship is already a big stretch, and not something advisable for the comon mortal.
    I personally think theres a factory in the mountains and they float them down the river.
    In every country there is that mountain, or rather, that hill (isn’t “Ain’t no mountain high enough” an American song?). And on top of that hill is not a factory (you people over there have a talent at being so “unromantic”) but a bunch of unoticed flowers (the only one that matter)…. and they do not expect to be plucked from the earth, but noticed, watered, etc. Up to man to decide if that is his mission until the day he dies…

  • Damien Vulaume

    Exactly. Maybe “hot bitch” offers great sex, but you’re not morally pressured to commit. Sweet girl doesn’t see that though, she sees great guys who like promiscuous bitches.
    Is that kind of sophomoric psychology destined to be the ever after factor in the american mating dance hall? How depressing.
    “hot bitch” has nothing to do with great sex, nor “great guy” is either. I’m surprised that this should still be commented.

  • Ion

    “However, I tend to get really, really annoyed by this and break up with them in frustration and never try to date them again.”

    I think that’s good advice, JP.

    Damien

    “Is that kind of sophomoric psychology destined to be the ever after factor in the american mating dance hall? How depressing.”

    I’m not sure how often this happens. Just trying to figure out why guys see sweet/cute girls, and revert their attention to promiscuous women. “Simply not ready for commitment–will look for her later” seems like a possibility.

  • Esau

    “dS > dE/T

    Great example of sexy STEMness!”

    You see, I would have felt compelled to go full-out with

    dS >= dE/T + dV P/T + dN mu/T

    and I don’t have particularly long arms. For anything good, there’s a way to overdo it!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You see, I would have felt compelled to go full-out with

      dS >= dE/T + dV P/T + dN mu/T

      and I don’t have particularly long arms. For anything good, there’s a way to overdo it!

      Haha! So true!

  • Ramble

    I know you’re late to the thread, but I’ve already responded to your points.

    This is going to be the case moving forward. I am going to be late almost anytime I post. Feel free to simply respond with, “This has already been addressed upthread”. There is no need for you to re-address everything simply because your most brilliant commenter is late to reply.

    In addition, many STEM men tend to be extremely “male-brained” and have personality traits that make it more difficult to connect with women, e.g. introversion.

    Right. It is a hard concept for many people to grasp that STEM guys have the most masculine brains whereas your average NFL Linebacker has a fairly feminine brain (talkative, emotional, outward…you average fan, by now, should have noticed how often those guys cry, literally cry, on the sidelines. I can never, ever remember a punter or placekicker cry.).

    Being really masculine is not helpful in the mating game. The likes of Roissy and other PUAs are guys who have spent a lot of time understanding themselves through female eyes. This is one of the reasons why wanna-be rockstars get so much ass. They basically think like girls.

    In contrast, any kind of creative artist has a ready made opportunity for displaying traits that women find attractive.

    I want to make this perfectly clear. I am not talking about accomplished musicians and genuine “I will turn this large slab of marble into the most beautiful and realistic statue you have ever seen” sculptors. I am talking about accomplished poseurs.

    You could pick the most prodigious pianist studying at Julliard and I would take a Vince Neil or Bret Michaels any day (the glam bands of the 80’s were probably better at this stuff than anyone else).

    Does this mean that every girl goes for some sort of artistic poseur? Of course not. But, those that are skilled at posing and posturing are much better off than genuine scientists, musicians and the like.

    Occupational status is the most important female attraction trigger

    Don’t get too caught up in that. [For the record, I am not officially opposing Buss.] The hottest girls are often between 18-22. Very few hot 19 years could care less about some accomplished doctor or lawyer. Later on, those things become more important.

    Male-male competition does not explain everything about attraction, not by a long shot. But it’s very important, as any woman can tell you.

    I am not arguing that male-male competition has no play in this. I am saying that it is not great as short hand. For someone in your position, being able to utilize quick, shorthand/rule-of-thumb ideas can really help when dealing with the same question for the 1700th time. I am saying, don’t make this one of those rules-of thumb.

    It simply has WAY too many holes.

    I bought anise seed yesterday!

    Bizcochitos! They are a tradition at Christmas time in New Mexico. Either way, they are always perfect with some coffee or tea.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Thanks for your comment, I agree with pretty much everything you said. It’s important to distinguish between “this factor is the best predictor” and “this is the only factor that matters.” The former may be one of several factors with similar impact, perhaps even just slightly more influence than the #2 factor.

      I find that the shades of gray often get lost in these discussions. Once the debate goes into black and white territory, it’s very difficult to regain any semblance of subtlety. I wind up repeating the same defensive and qualifying statements again and again. It’s very tedious and gives me a headache. I need to figure out a way to prevent that from happening so much. Any suggestions are welcome.

  • INTJ

    @ Esau

    You see, I would have felt compelled to go full-out with

    dS >= dE/T + dV P/T + dN mu/T

    and I don’t have particularly long arms. For anything good, there’s a way to overdo it!

    Darn you and your non-closed systems.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Ramble you’re on to some of the missing pieces of this puzzle for sure

  • Ramble

    I wind up repeating the same defensive and qualifying statements again and again. It’s very tedious and gives me a headache. I need to figure out a way to prevent that from happening so much. Any suggestions are welcome.

    1. You are very generous. You seem to reply to almost any non-trivial statement.

    That is crazy.

    You are allowed to let statements/questions go without responding, even if they come from someone as awesome as myself.

    2. You are allowed to say that something was covered upthread. If someone is bringing something up that was covered 47 blog-posts ago, and you just happen to remember the title of the blog post, then point them to that.

    If not, then say that this is covered territory and direct them to step 3 …

    3. Start a FAQ that you will keep updating. You can ask yourself the most commonly covered questions in this FAQ and give a clear answer. If, later on, some infamous nit-picker points out a small crack in the foundation, you can go back and update the answer.

    For instance, you might start with this question: Why are all women stupid bitches?

    You could then explain why they are not all stupid bitches.

    For some of the trickier questions (and answers), say, like those related to “hypergamy”, you could invite the likes of Escoffier (or Bastiat, or David Foster, or etc.) to pen his own answer (or, and this might be even better, have him re-ask the question in a different way before providing his own answer to shed some light on why you two so often seem to speak past one another) so that you can compare and contrast and see if you two really are speaking past one another.

    You could also attempt a community wiki, but, something like that might need to be maintained, and that would probably prove to be too much work.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Your suggestions are awesome! I have been replying less recently, and that does seem to help. I tend to chime in more when things get contentious, or when commenters say things that I do not wish to let stand.

      Coincidentally, yesterday on NPR there was a show about science blogs and whether bloggers allow comments. The editor of Scientific American was there, and he said they have stopped allowing comments at all. He had several reasons, including the usual – people tend to be very rude online, etc. But he said the main reason is that oppositional commentary dilutes the power of the article. Even if people are wrong, it’s easy for them to cast doubt on the claims of the person who did the research and writing, and he feels that interferes with the mission of SA and does a disservice to the readers. I feel that way sometimes, so I could really relate. OTOH, I won’t ever close the blog to comments, so the challenge is managing things better.

      One individual science blogger used to have comments but found it way too time consuming to moderate them, engage in discussion, build the community, etc. So he stopped. Again, the challenge for me is to become more efficient. To that end, your suggestions #2 and #3 would be very helpful.

      Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    This would be my mother and my father’s mother… both of whom have stubby index fingers indicative of high in-utero testosterone exposure. With character (morals and foresight) this brings strong commitment and controlled vengefulness if cheated upon– sorta like guys would do. (Without character, hypergamous ‘ho-dom and aggravation for the disposable men.) Of course, today, with the decline of character unleashing hypergamy, well… sure looks like bad news. (Many pornstars and strippers have stubby index fingers… you do the math.)

  • Esau

    INTJ: @ Esau

    You see, I would have felt compelled to go full-out with

    dS >= dE/T + dV P/T + dN mu/T

    and I don’t have particularly long arms. For anything good, there’s a way to overdo it!

    Darn you and your non-closed systems.

    Ah, now you’ve started it, and also leaned into why I think Dr. Nervous Toes’ formulation back at 524:

    “dS > dE/T”

    while it might look gnarly in a tattoo or carved on a tree, is actually a bit poseur-ly in my opinion. For completely closed, isolated systems, total energy is always conserved (at least classically) and so all changes have dE=0 for the system as a whole, and so internal re-arrangements this form then reduces to the decidedly less sophisticated dS>0.

    For isolated systems which, say, can accept thermal energy but not change volume or particle number, then the change in entropy due to a small change in energy is exact, dS=dE/T — in some books this is the literal definition of temperature — assuming the isolated system was in local self-equilibrium before and after the change; so the “>” in the formulation never comes into play and so looks overly dramatic and thus poseur-ly to me. (If the isolated system was not in local equilibrium then it’s potentially more complicated, but then temperature is not necessarily well-defined and so you still can’t use the indicated form.)

    More generally, the longer form I wrote — not usable for tattoos, at least in that notation — recognizes the fact that there are a number of quantities which are globally conserved during exchanges between sub-systems, the usual set being energy, volume and particle number (though some problems will also bring in electrical charge and even angular momentum). With this in mind, there is no holistic reason to privilege energy in particular as having a central role more than any of the other conserved quantities; and doing so, which is the approach usually taken in undergrad thermo, can really retard one’s fuller understanding of the full stat-mech truth (as I know it did mine, for a while).

    Meanwhile, I don’t suppose “S = k log W” would have quite the same artistic impact; though, being inscribed on Boltzmann’s tombstone it would always give one a conversation opener….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      I know I’m an outlier, but I find all that scientific talk very attractive. I really do love smarts in a man.

  • Esau

    Susan — You may be rare, but you’re not alone; my wife does too! :)

  • Sai

    I missed a lot!
    Escoffier got banned? :(

    @HanSolo
    YOU LOOK LIKE A REINCARNATED VIKING~
    10/10

    @Jackie
    I’m glad you’re alive and healthy!

  • Ion

    Esco was banned? What happened/thread?

  • INTJ

    @ Esau

    You’re thinking like a physicist, not an engineer. These days, classical thermodynamics exists for engineers (in comparison to Physicists who use stat thermo). Engineers often work with closed cycle heat engines so it’s quite often for energy to not be conserved and other things to be conserved. Granted though, in this case it should be dS = dE/T, and the > is definitely poseurly.

    Besides, engineering is just poseur physics in general, and one should write S = k log W. Sure, the artistic impact might not be the same, but correctness is much more important than artistic impact. :D

  • Pingback: The Shift In Mate Preferences « Traditional Christianity

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    Your point about girls’ socialization is in complete agreement with the study. Girls do form cliques and exert considerable agentic pressure in some cases to become “top female.” They are socially dominant females, and they are ranked as the most popular girls by both girls and boys.

    Where a dominant female is dependent upon her social group for affirmation of her status, men are not. An Alpha male is so with or without social affirmation.

    Social dominance for males is also awarded within the context of peer affirmation. The most popular boys prevail over other boys to achieve social dominance over them, via male-male competition. A man without social affiliation can therefore not possess social dominance.

    If you refer to the “lone wolf” or “brooding loner” type, the Vox sigma, his social dominance is often quite low but he survives it and may even profit by it by virtue of his indifference. His identity as the rebel willing to buck authority gives him notoriety, but these men are rare.

    The dominant Alpha male (biologically) represents the most ideal breeding opportunity for females, whereas an “Alpha” female is only the dominant female amongst her social clutch. Her social dominance doesn’t represent the same evolutionary advantage / attraction that his does.

    No, the socially dominant males and females form a social cohort and socialize with one another. This is a study of kids aged 12-17, and at least up until that point these alpha types form a separate “20%” (or some %) group. Within each of the male and female clutches, there will be a “top dog” and “queen bee” no doubt, but the friend group is also very socially dominant.

    Furthermore, the dominant female is statistically at a breeding disadvantage if you consider that the only males she would find equitable mates are the same Alpha men interested in submissive partners.

    Well, that’s the point. It appears that alpha men may be increasingly interested in alpha women. I suspect that the most promiscuous men and women come college age are these alphas of both sexes. It’s clear that during college, promiscuous men and women generally hook up with one another.