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Is ‘No Strings Attached’ Sex an Oxymoron?

Guilty WomanA new paper by Justin Garcia, a Research Fellow at the Kinsey Institute (and a protege of Helen Fisher) takes stock of the latest research on the psychological consequences of casual sex. Buckle up, there’s lots of bad news for both sexes, and 20 excellent reasons not to engage in casual sex. There is still no such thing as a free lunch.

Garcia’s intro:

It is an unprecedented time in the history of human sexuality. In the United States, the age when people first marry and reproduce has been pushed back dramatically, while at the same time the age of puberty has dropped, resulting in an era in which young adults are physiologically able to reproduce but not psychologically or socially ready to “settle down” and begin a family (Bogle, 2007; Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

These developmental shifts, research suggests, are some of the factors driving the increase in sexual “hookups,” or uncommitted sexual encounters, part of a popular cultural change that has infiltrated the lives of emerging adults throughout the Western world.

Hookups are becoming more engrained in popular culture, reflecting both evolved sexual predilections and changing social and sexual scripts. 

Some Interesting Background on How We Got Here

  • “Hookups began to become more frequent in the 1920s, with the upsurge of automobiles and novel entertainment, such as movie theaters. Instead of courting at home under a parent’s watchful eye, young adults left the home and were able to explore their sexuality more freely.”
  • “By the 1960s, young adults became even more sexually liberated, with the rise of feminism, widespread availability of birth control and growth of sex-integrated college party events.”
  • “The media have become a source of sex education, filled with often inaccurate portrayals of sexuality (Kunkel et al., 2005). The themes of books, plots of movies and television shows, and lyrics of numerous songs all demonstrate a permissive sexuality among consumers. The media suggest that uncommitted sex, or hookups, can be both physically and emotionally enjoyable and occur without “strings.” “

The Culture Today

  • The most recent data suggest that between 60 percent and 80 percent of North American college students have had some sort of hook-up experience. This is consistent with the view of emerging adulthood (typical college age) as a period of developmental transition (Arnett, 2000), exploring and internalizing sexuality and romantic intimacy, now including hookups (Stinson, 2010).
  • Although much of the current research has been done on college campuses, among younger adolescents, 70 percent of sexually active 12- to 21-year-olds reported having had uncommitted sex within the last year (Grello et al., 2003).

Garcia goes on to thoroughly survey the notable research to date. Here are the most interesting excerpts:

Regret Later?

It’s clear that positive feelings from a hookup diminish over time. Also, unsurprisingly, women express far more regret and other emotional consequences than men. Still, it’s clear that about a quarter of women enjoy hooking up and cite no ill effects. (It’s amazing how that 20-25% number comes up again and again!)

1. In one study, among participants who were asked to characterize the morning after a hookup, 82 percent of men and 57 percent of women were generally glad they had done it (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

 2. In a study of 832 college students, 26 percent of women and 50 percent of men reported feeling positive after a hookup, and 49 percent of women and 26 percent of men reported a negative reaction (the remainders for each sex had a mix of both positive and negative reactions; Owen et al., 2010).

3. In a qualitative study that asked 187 participants to report their feelings after a typical hookup, 35 percent reported feeling regretful or disappointed, 27 percent good or happy, 20 percent satisfied, 11 percent confused, 9 percent proud, 7 percent excited or nervous, 5 percent uncomfortable, and 2 percent desirable or wanted (Paul & Hayes, 2002).

4. In a large Web-based study of 1,468 undergraduate students, participants reported a variety of consequences: 27.1 percent felt embarrassed, 24.7 percent reported emotional difficulties, 20.8 percent experienced loss of respect, and 10 percent reported difficulties with a steady partner (Lewis et al., 2011).

5. In another recent study conducted on a sample of 200 undergraduate students in Canada, 78 percent of women and 72 percent of men who had uncommitted sex (including vaginal, anal, and/or oral sex) reported a history of experiencing regret following such an encounter (Fisher et al., 2012).

6. In a study of 270 sexually active college-age students, 72 percent regretted at least one instance of previous sexual activity (Oswalt, Cameron, & Koob, 2005).

7. In a report of 152 female undergraduate students, 74 percent had either a few or some regrets from uncommitted sex: 61 percent had a few regrets, 23 percent had no regrets, 13 percent had some regrets and 3 percent had many regrets (Eshbaugh & Gute, 2008).

8. Another study identified two types of sexual encounters that were particularly predictive of regret: engaging in penetrative intercourse with someone known less than 24 hours and engaging in penetrative intercourse with someone only once…Campbell (2008) found that men had stronger feelings of being “sorry because they felt they used another person,” whereas women had stronger feelings of “regret because they felt used.”

The Toll on Mental Health:

If you’re not cut out for it, it can really bum you out.

1. In a study of 394 young adults followed across a university semester, those with more depressive symptoms and greater feelings of loneliness who engaged in penetrative sex hookups subsequently reported a reduction in both depressive symptoms and feelings of loneliness (Owen et al., 2011).

At the same time, participants who reported fewer depressive symptoms and fewer feelings of loneliness who engaged in penetrative sex hookups subsequently reported an increase in both depressive symptoms and feelings of loneliness (Owen et al., 2011).

2. In another study, among 291 sexually experienced individuals, people who had the most regret after uncommitted sex also had more symptoms of depression than those who had no regret (Welsh et al., 2006). However, in the same sample, women’s but not men’s degree of depressive symptoms increased with number of previous sex partners within the last year (Welsh et al., 2006).

“Discrepancies between behaviors and desires, particularly with respect to social-sexual relationships, have dramatic implications for physical and mental health.”

3. In the first study to investigate the issue of self-esteem and hookups, both men and women who had ever engaged in an uncommitted sexual encounter had lower overall self-esteem scores compared with those without uncommitted sexual experiences (Paul et al., 2000).

“Despite the allure of engaging in uncommitted sex, research shows that people engage in these behaviors even when they feel uncomfortable doing so.”

4. Misperception of sexual norms is one potential driver for people to behave in ways they do not personally endorse. In a replication and extension of Lambert et al.’s (2003) study, Reiber and Garcia (2010) found that 78 percent of people overestimated others’ comfort with many different sexual hook-up behaviors, with men particularly overestimating women’s actual comfort with a variety of sexual behaviors in hookups.

“Hook-up scenarios may include feelings of pressure and performance anxiety, contributing to feelings of discomfort.”

5. In Paul et al.’s (2000) study on hookups, 16 percent of participants felt pressured during their typical hookup. In this sample, 12 percent of participants felt out of control when intercourse was not involved, while 22 percent felt out of control when sexual intercourse took place.

6. In a study of 169 sexually experienced men and women surveyed in singles bars, when presented with the statement, “I feel guilty or would feel guilty about having sexual intercourse with someone I had just met,” 32 percent of men and 72 percent of women agreed (Herold & Mewhinney, 1993)

“Qualitative descriptions of hookups reveal relative gender differences in terms of feelings afterward, with women displaying more negative reactions than men.”

7. Women generally identify more emotional involvement in seemingly “low investment” (i.e., uncommitted) sexual encounters than men (Townsend, 1995).

8. In a study of 140 (109 female, 31 male) first-semester undergraduates, women, but not men, who had engaged in intercourse during a hookup showed higher rates of mental distress (Fielder & Carey, 2010).

9. In a sample of 507 undergraduate students, more women than men hoped that a relationship would develop following a hookup. Only 4.4 percent of men and 8.2 percent of women (6.45 percent of participants) expected a traditional romantic relationship as an outcome, while 29 percent of men and 42.9 percent of women (36.57 percent of participants) ideally wanted such an outcome (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

“It is likely that a substantial portion of emerging adults today are compelled to publicly engage in hookups while desiring both immediate sexual gratification and more stable romantic attachments.”

Sexual Risk

10. People who hook up are more likely to have concurrent sexual partners (Paik, 2010b). Moreover, in a sample of 1,468 college students, among the 429 students who had engaged in oral sex, anal sex or vaginal intercourse in their most recent hookup, only 46.6 percent reported using a condom (Lewis et al., 2011).

11. In a sample of several thousand people ages 15 to 25, men and women who had used marijuana or cocaine in the previous 12 months were also more likely than nonusers to have had nonmonogamous sex in the past 12 months (van Gelder et al., 2011).

12. In one study of undergraduate students, 33 percent of those who reported they had uncommitted sex indicated their motivation was “unintentional,” likely due to alcohol and other drugs (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

13. In Fielder and Carey’s (2010) study among 118 first-semester female college students, participants reported that 64 percent of uncommitted sexual encounters followed alcohol use, with the average occuring after consuming three alcoholic drinks. 

14. In a sample of 178 college students, participants noted that most of their unwanted sex occurred in the context of hookups: 77.8 percent during a hookup, 13.9 percent in an ongoing relationship and 8.3 percent on a date (Flack et al., 2007).

15. In a study by Lewis et al. (2011), 86.3 percent of participants portrayed their most recent hook-up experience as one they wanted to have, while 7.6 percent indicated that their most recent hookup was an experience they did not want to have or to which they were unable to give consent. Unwanted and nonconsensual sexual encounters are more likely occurring alongside alcohol and substance use.

16. Alcohol use has also been associated with a type of hookup: The greatest alcohol use was associated with penetrative sexual hookups, less alcohol use with nonpenetrative hookups, and the least amount of alcohol use occurred among those who did not hook-up (Owen, Fincham, & Moore, 2011).

17. In one study of men and women who had engaged in an uncommitted sexual encounter that included vaginal, anal or oral sex, participants reported their intoxication levels: 35 percent were very intoxicated, 27 percent were mildly intoxicated, 27 percent were sober and 9 percent were extremely intoxicated (Fisher, Worth, Garcia, & Meredith, 2012).

“Alcohol may also serve as an excuse, purposely consumed as a strategy to protect the self from having to justify hook-up behavior later (Paul, 2006).”

Other factors may include media consumption, personality and biological predispositions:

18. Garcia, MacKillop, et al. (2010) demonstrated an association between dopamine D4 receptor gene polymorphism (DRD4 VNTR) and uncommitted sexual activity among 181 young men and young women…Individuals with a particular “risk-taking” variant of the dopamine D4 receptor gene were shown to have a higher likelihood of having uncommitted sexual encounters (including infidelity and one-night stands); however, no sex differences were observed.

This suggests that biological factors that contribute to motivating the different contexts of sexual behavior for both men and women may be fairly sexually monomorphic (Garcia & Reiber, 2008; Garcia, Reiber, et al., 2010). 

Casual Sex is Meh

19. Men reached orgasm more often than women. In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.

20. Armstrong, England and Fogarty (2009) addressed sexual satisfaction in a large study of online survey responses from 12,295 undergraduates from 17 different colleges. Participants were asked about oral sex rates and orgasm in their most recent hookup and most recent relationship sexual event. In this study, men reported receiving oral sex both in hookups and in relationships much more than women.

In first-time hookups that involved oral sex, 55 percent included only men receiving oral sex, 19 percent only women receiving oral sex, and 27 percent both mutually receiving; in last relationship sexual activity, 32 percent included only men receiving oral sex, 16 percent included only women receiving oral sex, and 52 percent included both mutually receiving.

Garcia’s Conclusion

By definition, sexual hookups provide the allure of sex without strings attached. Despite their increasing social acceptability, however, developing research suggests that sexual hookups may leave more strings attached than many participants might first assume.

  • Zach

    Numbers 19 and 20 are the biggies for me. With a rare exception or two, drunk casual sex is usually no better than my right hand.

    And I can vouch for number 10. I wouldn’t say I’m at 45%, but I have times when I think how lucky I’ve been not to catch anything given how stupid my behavior was at times. I have a friend who gets around more than I do (I think his N is near 35 or so, and it’s almost exclusively wasted sex with randos), and he almost never uses a condom. We’re all disgusted by it/waiting for him to get AIDS.

  • Underdog

    @Zach

    Look up how difficult it is for males to get STDs.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Oh for crying out loud YareallyPUA just go away already. Why do you invest so much time typing out a comment promoting a lifestyle that no one here wants?

    Me thinks thou doth protest a ridiculous amount.

  • Morgasm

    Regarding casual sex, here’s something that also ties into MRAs going abroad to foreign countries to find what they refer to as “feminine” women.
    The men in this documentary are saying they are doing it to get the “respect as men” that they do not get in the USA. In the same breath they claim American women just want their money but then describe how they spend their time in Brazil dancing, drinking, partying and what they call general “chillin’ and hangin’ out with” local women. Fair enough but who’s paying for all the food and booze? Brazilian women?

    The Brazilian women interviewed also talk a lot about dancing, drinking, having a good time and “treating these men nice”, but no mention of settling down, marriage, having children in one’s most fertile years, etc.

    So while these men are claiming these women are better in all ways to American women, it doesn’t appear they are eager to wife and family them up. So that leaves me to question the life trajectory of these women.
    Is it simply spending a decade or 2 “drinking, dancing, and treating American men nice”?

    Wouldn’t Brazilian women be better served just getting married and having children while they are still fertile?

    I mean, what’s in it for them other than a few years of partying at the financial expense of American men?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOjvPOBvd9A

  • Morgasm

    And for those of you who don’t want to sit through the entire 40 minute documentary, here’s a 2 minute trailer which basically sums it up;

    American MRAs in Brazil;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5cyFyhfN8

  • angelguy

    I think one has to ask why more people are going this route, rather than long term relationships. If you were to start with that, you would be surprised to find how simple the answers are.

    There is no such thing as, “No strings attached sex”.
    There is always something.
    It just might not be what you expect.

    I could use some of that, lol. But it has been a long workday.

  • Abbot
  • Abbot

    Knowing this, will women or men have a better chance of finding a non-promicous person to commit to?

  • Mireille

    @ Abbot,

    I really liked that article and can definitely relate. What has been omitted was that women also received the info that they shouldn’t communicate TO MEN that they want a bf, not overtly. Just play hard to get, act non-committal and be ‘cool’, and all that jazz. So you get the message that women shouldn’t advertize that they want commitment publicly because that’s what the cads want to hear (always catering to that small portion of the SMP) and you don’t look “desperate” in front of other women. Result, you’re locked up in some infernal box where your real desires are not to been expressed.
    The problem is that when the biological clock get louder in your head and you finally muster the courage to say “I want to get married, have children and get boringly happy”, people call you desperate, used up or reformed carroussel rider trying to corner some beta. You just can’t win.

    I’d say 3 lines of thinking have informed me of how I’d react to casual sex and my decision to opt out and sit out the whole thing”
    _ The need for sexual validation: I remember “feeling” more excited that guys liked me or wanted to have sex with me. Even after some filtering, I wasn’t really in sync with my own desires, it was more about pleasing those who picked me, like a reward. Bad business.
    _The Pluralistic ignorance: most of the GF were bragging about the great sex they were having and some had the ability to get guys to be interested, albeit not to fully commit but it was still a major step. Hooking up was the seen as the only step in. Sometimes, it went from 0 to 60, little flirting and PDA, straight to sex.
    _A clear representation of the your partner’s intention: Engaging in sexual activity when you’re hoping the guy really likes you and doesn’t pull the fade tomorrow or next week is no good.

    The analysis of those 3 factors ending in a negative conclusion were a recipe for disaster for me. I preferred to quit the game altogether than accumulating bruises to my body and sanity. I’m really happy to say I have little baggage and pretty optimistic about the future in that area, that is if I don’t get discarded for being past the expiration date.

  • Morgasm

    “Knowing this, will women or men have a better chance of finding a non-promicous person to commit to?”

    Are you referring to the documentary posted above about American MRAs in Brazil? The Brazilian women they are dealing with appear quite promiscuous to me. All the talk about “drinking, dancing and treating the men nicer than those nasty American women.”

    Meanwhile the American women in the video were discussing what they need from men in order to have a functional marriage and family life.

    The irony is that these men are claiming that the Brazilian women are “more feminine” and “not about money”.

    Drinking, eating, dancing and partying in Brazil is free?
    Or are the Brazilian women footing the bills?

  • Lokland

    Susan,

    Have you considered comparing the numbers of men/women expressing regret/depression because they have hooked up over those who have not?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Have you considered comparing the numbers of men/women expressing regret/depression because they have hooked up over those who have not?

      That would be interesting. I did notice that when depressed people hook up, they feel better. When non-depressed people hook up they feel worse.

      I was aware in looking over all the stats on regret that they reflect those people hooking up. The 20-40% not hooking up at all aren’t even included, obviously.

      I have written one post about the negative long-term effects of hooking up:

      Casual Sex Makes College Students Crazy, Fat and Stupid

      They looked at these parameters:

      Mental Health

      The researchers conservatively defined mental health problems as those serious enough to have a detrimental effect on academic performance. Students were asked to report serious problems resulting from the following:

      alcohol use
      depression/anxiety disorder
      seasonal affective disorder
      drug use
      eating disorder/problem
      relationship difficulties
      stress

      Physical Health

      Students reported a decline in academic performance due to any of the following:

      cold/flu/sore throat
      injury
      mononucleosis
      sinus infection/ear infection/bronchitis/strep throat
      sleep difficulties

      This model showed that being in a committed romantic relationship is associated with having fewer sexual partners and that having more sexual partners is directly associated with problematic outcomes, such that having more sexual partners predicts poorer physical and mental health. These results suggest that being in a committed romantic relationship decreases problematic outcomes largely through a reduction in sexual partners, which is associated with decreases in both risky behaviors and problematic outcomes.

      1. Students in committed relationships drank less overall, engaged in binge drinking less frequently and drove drunk less.

      2. There was no difference between the groups in the use of tobacco or illicit drugs.

      3. Not surprisingly, students in LTRs had fewer sexual partners during the last year.

      4. LTR partners had fewer mental health problems.

      5. LTR partners were less likely to be overweight or obese.

      6. There was no difference in physical health problems (excluding STIs) between the two groups.

  • Morgasm

    “Although much of the current research has been done on college campuses, among younger adolescents, 70 percent of sexually active 12- to 21-year-olds reported having had uncommitted sex within the last year (Grello et al., 2003).”

    Good lord, 12 year olds?!?!?!

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Cut the crap on the Brazilian women

    American women have priced themselves out of the market for most men. If you want to get the kind of attention from a slender, feminine woman in the USA as you can get in Brazil for very little, you will need to spend exponentially more.

    Market forces at work. Programmers and factory workers aren’t the only ones who can be outsourced.

  • Morgasm

    “American women have priced themselves out of the market for most men. If you want to get the kind of attention from a slender, feminine woman in the USA as you can get in Brazil for very little, you will need to spend exponentially more.

    Market forces at work.”

    Nothing against those women. Watch the documentary. The mens’ attitudes and comments in it are telling.

    Its also telling that you use “priced out of market” and “market forces”.

    In the docu-video the men talk about how American women just want them for their money whereas Brazilian women “respect” them but they never once mention the exchange rate and how its more affordable for them to wine and dine Brazilian women in the manner they expect it.

    They should be honest and just come out and say, “Brazilian women want the same damn thing from us but the exchange rate here makes it affordable so we’ll call it “respect” instead”.

  • Mireille

    “They should be honest and just come out and say, “Brazilian women want the same damn thing from us but the exchange rate here makes it affordable so we’ll call it “respect” instead”.”

    I think Morg is right; I’m fine with men going to other places to have “more for their money”; People do it for healthcare and even retirement these days so it isn’t just a question of “feminine” women. Expectations are lower there, not in regard of relationship but also regarding the cost associated with them.
    If you’re going to use ‘market forces’ and ‘out-pricing’ terms, gotta be ok with calling it optimizing your wallet. It’s all good if it results in marriage and babies and not just sexual interludes. YMMV

  • lovelost

    i guess hookup will stop, when society finds enough scientific evidence that is bad, just like obesity.

  • Underdog

    Judging from that youtube clip, the American women all look like walruses while the Brazil women all look like, well, Brazil women.

    Money, respect, niceness, etc. are all rationalizations and attempts at not sounding “shallow”.

  • Morgasm

    “Judging from that youtube clip, the American women all look like walruses while the Brazil women all look like, well, Brazil women.

    Money, respect, niceness, etc. are all rationalizations and attempts at not sounding “shallow”.

    In the longer documentary the men talk about looks as well. But the main memes they keep repeating are “respect” and “money”.

    They don’t get no respect from American women and AW just want money and earn more than they do.

    Its quite a hoot. One guy (he’s shown at the very beginning of the trailer) sitting at a restaurant table says, “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    WTF?

  • Sassy6519

    Its quite a hoot. One guy (he’s shown at the very beginning of the trailer) sitting at a restaurant table says, “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    WTF?

    Hahahahahaha!!! That’s pathetic.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That would be interesting. I did notice that when depressed people hook up, they feel better. When non-depressed people hook up they feel worse.”

    I saw that which is why I asked.

    Depression/stressed out anxiety problems are a serious problem, two separate schools off the top of my head, this year reported 78ish and 88ish % of students reporting depression.

    “The researchers conservatively defined mental health problems as those serious enough to have a detrimental effect on academic performance. Students were asked to report serious problems resulting from the following:”

    I didn’t get to hook up at all in college (or for that matter much ever) and I was severely depressed about life in general.

    Of course, my B type personality made stress from school a non-existent factor.

    I spent more of my undergrad career thinking about not getting laid rather than my classes. (As in upwards of 90% of my focus.)
    (Same in high school except it was because I didn’t have a girlfriend. Funny how expectations are dependant upon environment.)

    And both caused very serious depression.

  • Morgasm

    Yes, Sassy. Right here;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5cyFyhfN8

    I was smacking my head throughout (though I really wanted to smack their’s).

    And the older guy saying he tells his married friends NOT to come to Brazil because they are going to be thinking about how to get rid of their wives once they return home? Just a second before that his buddy to his right was saying, “Many of my married friends’ wives forbid them from coming to Brazil. My opinion is if your wive is not letting you do something, your marriage has problems.”

    Then later in the documentary a Brazilian woman asks, “why American women don’t want their husbands to come to Brazil? We drink with them, dance with them, treat them nice. What is the problem?”

    Um, ok.

  • Lokland

    @Morgasm

    “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    Rofl. ‘Yeah, that bitch knows where to put my straw’

    Ohh the endless innuendo available from that actually makes me want to put it on TV just so I can have some excellent material.

  • Kurt

    Casual sex also seems to be bad for society because a lot of men aren’t getting it and as a result they often become bitter and/or distrustful of women, whom they assume to be sluts unworthy of marriage.

  • Senior Beta

    So Roosh was right? About Brazilian women, I mean.

  • Abbot

    “Casual sex also seems to be bad for society because a lot of men aren’t getting it and as a result they often become bitter and/or distrustful of women, whom they assume to be sluts unworthy of marriage.”

    Same goes even if they are getting it…

  • Morgasm

    “Same goes even if they are getting it…”

    Men are fickle and never satisfied.

    I think they need to do their own version of Eat Pray Love, put up in an ashram somewhere and learn the value of meditation.

  • Fifth Season

    Kind of makes you wonder why the Hook-up culture gets such a nice rap if all the downsides are there for all to see.

    It makes cases like Susan’s own marriage (or rather, the genesis of intimacy in her marriage) all the stranger. I’d be interested in seeing if there are common traits in the “hook-ups that worked” anecdotes around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kind of makes you wonder why the Hook-up culture gets such a nice rap if all the downsides are there for all to see.

      Well, FWIW, it’s gotten a lot more criticism since I started blogging four years ago. I was practically a lone voice then online, though I had been inspired by a number of researchers who had published books on the topic. Any negative articles were generally found in student newspapers across the country. Now we have even more research – as Garcia’s article makes clear – but also a lot more debate about casual sex in the MSM.

  • Brendan

    I don’t see the relevance of all the back and forth about Brazil in a thread about young American people and the hookup culture. The tie-in seem tenuous at best.

    When I was living in Germany, one of my German lawyer colleagues went to Brazil for the purpose of finding a wife, for much the same reason (didn’t like German women). They did marry and have kids, and they eventually moved to the US to live. Not really an issue — it’s a global market for everything else, why not for spouses? And, yes she was, let’s just say, very *very* different from the typical German woman, and not just in terms of her appearance. It’s a different culture altogether. Having said that, finding a mate in a foreign culture can be a bit dicey, but if you are yourself culturally flexible (the last thing on his mind was Germanizing her — that was precisely what he was trying to avoid), it can be good for both people.

    And, yes, German women were pissed at him (he was quite tall, athletic, good looking and a very smart and successful lawyer).

    Sour grapes make for some bitter wine, it seems to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I haven’t followed the Brazil convo closely, and didn’t view the link, but I will emphatically state that I support people finding love wherever they choose, and wherever they can. I don’t see what national borders have to do with it, or why it’s anyone else’s business.

      There is a young family on my street which is pretty obviously a mail-order bride situation – he’s older, and she’s young and Vietnamese. They have a beautiful little boy and seem extremely happy together. It seems to me that’s what we want more of – stable, productive families.

  • YaLol

    “I’d be interested in seeing if there are common traits in the “hook-ups that worked” anecdotes around.”

    There are plenty. I’m trying to explain them here, but Sue keeps deleting my comments that explain very common things that differentiate a “good hook-up that was great and can lead to a relationship” VS “bad hook-up that leaves the girl feeling used and ashamed.”

    But hey, who wants the truth?

    @Sue
    I wasn’t even challenging you, I was agreeing with the stats AND with your overall message/mission for women. :) You are just blind with hatred as soon as you see my name now. And here I was, trying to be nice.

    Let your readers decide if my very respectful, friendly comment was useful or not. You don’t seem to give your readers much credit in their ability to be able to read information and choose not to absorb it. They’re smart capable adults.

    What I wrote would help women know what to look for in a no-strings hookup if they’ve decided they want that despite your teaching (like a girl choosing not to see a guy more than once a week to avoid getting attached to him could help a girl who knows she falls in love too quick and keeps getting her heart broken and scaring off guys she wants to start an LTR with).

    I thought you wanted to help women find fulfilling relationships? Don’t you want to see those ugly statistics up above turn into positive ones where women are satisfied and happy with their romantic lives and decisions?

    You don’t WANT women to feel ashamed and miserable, do you? So let my post in so they can learn what guys looking for casual sex are thinking and can avoid us or use the knowledge to set up relationships that they want instead.

    I’ve saved that comment to repost it whenever you decide to take off the hate-goggles and actually read what I’m writing and think about how it can help the women in your audience. :) You said you don’t censor comments that are written politely and non-confrontational.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @YaReallyReallyAnnoying

      What I wrote would help women know what to look for in a no-strings hookup if they’ve decided they want that despite your teaching

      Do you realize how inane this is? Why on earth would I want to provide a platform for women who want no-strings hookups? They don’t need me for that – they can have it any day of the week. And they certainly don’t need a PUA telling them what works.

      Don’t you want to see those ugly statistics up above turn into positive ones where women are satisfied and happy with their romantic lives and decisions?

      You’re missing the point. 75-80% of women don’t like casual sex and don’t want it. Of the 20-25% who do, they don’t need your advice, they’re already happy with their hookups.

      So let my post in so they can learn what guys looking for casual sex are thinking and can avoid us or use the knowledge to set up relationships that they want instead.

      Your casual sex ‘tips’ are not useful in the formation of relationships.

      I will present the research and facts regardless of my personal feelings about them, but will not provide editorial content on how to get or enjoy casual sex, when the whole purpose of HUS is to promote its opposite.

      I don’t find your commentary useful or interesting, and I see no evidence that anyone else does either. You can keep posting with different names and different IP addresses, and I’ll keep deleting, or you can just give up. The best you can do is a few hours of exposure while I’m offline. Your choice.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    Thank you Tia.

  • Ted D

    Morgasm – “Does it makes sense for a man who has a woman to expect his “other woman” to be exclusive to him?!?! What is this crap?”

    For many men a sexual relationship involves a certain level of “mate ownership”, which is to say many men feel that they own their mate to some degree. Like many things this is on a spectrum. So from that perspective, a man would be “snooping” on the woman he is cheating with because he feels possessive of his mate. It doesn’t matter that HE is cheating at all, but that she isn’t getting sex anywhere else. Fair? Nope. True. Yep.

    I’ve admitted many times here that I have a strong sense of mate ownership, even to go as far as telling my wife often that her ass belongs to me. Because of my sense of fairness, and because I actually derive pleasure from being part of a couple, I have no issues with reciprocating that ownership. I think that in the long run its a pretty fair trade.

    Not all men care about fairness, and many have no problem being a hypocrite.

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way? That certainly is true of almost all women’s first time and probably the vast majority of men’s too. One is learning and growing, and coming into one’s own. So I don’t think that in and of itself is alarming (although there are certain stats there that are certainly disturbing; but it’s not all bad).

    What would be problematic is if people continue in bad habits and bad patterns for years after–that would be self-destructive on a signifiant scale. A lot of it also has to do with wild unrealistic expectations, surely fueled by the media and peer pressure.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @IP

      Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way? That certainly is true of almost all women’s first time and probably the vast majority of men’s too.

      Are you trolling? I can’t speak for men and you certainly can’t speak for women. I can assure you that “almost all” women do not find their first sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory. Quite the opposite, especially if it is in the context of a relationship.

  • Ted D

    IP – “Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way?”

    My first time was with a girl I spent 4 years with, and it was in no way regretful or unsatisfactory. In fact the first time I had unsatisfactory sex was with my first wife well past the point that she lost attraction for me. And it was unsatisfactory not because it was bad sex, but because I knew she don’t want me and was doing her “duty”.

    I have zero regrets when it comes to my sexual history or choices. I firmly believe more people would be happier if they could say the same.

  • Jesse

    It’s data points like nineteen that remind me the world is filled with idiots.

  • Ted D

    ROFL. I don’t know about your neck of the woods Morgasm, but around these parts “plugging” is slang for using a tampon during shark week. Mostly used as: “you’re being a real bitch today. Are you plugging?”

  • Ted D

    Oh. And I guess it’s a good thing I’m a relic. I enjoy oral sex a great deal. ;-)

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    Ted–Fair enough. You must have been in a very relaxed and comfortable mental state. My first time was pretty unimpressive to put it diplomatically. But certainly I would think most women’s first time would be almost guaranteed to be unenjoyable.

    Unfortunately alcohol consumption has become enmeshed with sexual expression in the college age range and beyond. Regrets are almost guaranteed all around. I think a huge number of men and women in America just do not have a healthy relationship with their own sexuality, or that of the opposite sex. It usually improves with age and experience though.

    Susan,

    BTW I know I’m not exactly on board with much of your worldview, but thank you for your courtesy in hosting my comments. I’ve found these threads enjoyable and thought-provoking the last few days.

  • Ted D

    IP – “You must have been in a very relaxed and comfortable mental state. ”

    I was with a young woman I loved and cared about. (As much as a just turned 16yo boy can love of course) It was by no means great sex, and probably not even good. (Lord knows I was done in minutes. But I also made up for it with another two rounds immediately after.) But, and I’m not trying to exaggerate for effect, it was a very deep and emotional experience for me. I was sharing something no other person on planet earth was privy to. A part of me no one else had seen. (And no I don’t mean my penis. Lol). And in that moment (well actually many moments later as I was too busy to reflect immediately…) I knew I could never indiscriminately share it with just any woman. For me there is no greater moment of exposure for my heart and soul than during sex, and it takes an extreme amount of trust in a woman before I can even contemplate opening my inner self up to her, let alone getting naked with her.

    And this is largely why I look around in horror as the vast majority of people (at least in appearance. Could be PI on my part) so nonchalantly sex up any pretty/hot person they encounter that is willing. I cannot imagine sharing so much of myself with someone I hardly know. So either most people are very stupid about exposing themselves to harm, or an awful lot of sex is shallow and worthless. I’m sure you can see why I dont generally hold promiscuous people in high esteem.

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    Ted-

    You know, it’s interesting. If you look at Europe, people have a much more laid back attitude towards sex than in the US. Sex in America is either an issue of profound moral significance, laced with ideas about machismo, self esteem and self worth, OR it’s a blind hedonistic romp-fest. In most of Europe sex is just a part of life. It’s a much more balanced and healthy way of looking at things. I think I read that Europeans have just as much sex as Americans, if not more, but with fewer total partners on average.

    It is these tortured expectations and uncertainties around sex that causes many to drown their issues in alcohol and leads to many of the unfortunate statistics mentioned in the article. (A similar phenomenon is seen in the UK relative to the continent.)

    Personally, I have never attached any deep significance to sex. This was true long before I was a “playboy” (such as it is). I think sex can be many things, depending on the individuals, the moment, the situation. Sometimes it’s a powerful deep connection between them. Sometimes it’s just a way to relieve stress. Sometimes it’s an expression of love, sometimes of lust. Sometimes it’s serious, sometimes it’s hilarious. I don’t think there’s anything right or wrong in any of those, they are all a part of the human experience.

    So basically, it’s not the sex (the physical act), it’s everything else around it that matters.

  • Ted D

    IP – cant sleep so thanks for keeping me company!

    “I don’t think there’s anything right or wrong in any of those, they are all a part of the human experience.”

    I suspect that this may be a profound difference between restricted and unrestricted folks. I simply cannot see sex (for myself at least) as anything less than something to be shared with someone I love. Now I will admit that since finding my way to the Red Pill I’ve found that I can enjoy letting some of that deeper meaning fade into the background and enjoy a more primal sexuality. (For lack of a better term at 1:18 AM) however that comfort is only possible because I’ve already shared every ounce of intimacy I contain with my wife.

    I’ve also found that I can’t go too long without having a “making love” session before the lack of intimacy starts to sour my desire for sex. So as odd as it sounds, my desire for sex is tightly entwined with my desire for emotional intimacy. I can disengage it for a time, but it isn’t something I would ever be satisfied without. And, the less of that intimacy I feel, the less desire I have for sex in general. (Which is why my few stretches of celibacy were mostly tolerable. I had no one to share that intimacy with, therefore I had little desire for sex). Of course meeting a woman that tripped my emotional triggers brought the desire back with a vengeance.

    So I simply can’t comprehend how anyone can see sex as simple recreation, sport, or stress relief. To be completely candid (and to get some TMI cred) rubbing one out is often an overall better stress relief for me than sex. (And the only reason I ever give myself a hand these days.) I suppose having all this emotional stuff attached to sex makes it a bit cumbersome for such use.

    Although a blowjob works nicely for stress relief as well, and at least it’s a team effort!

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    Ha, I’m usually up all night, happy to oblige :)

    Sex is emotional for me too, I think it is for all men. Just to a lesser degree than for women in general. But everyone is different. It’s an interesting topic, actually, why some men are more affected by sex than others. I’m sure brain chemistry is part of it.

    I’ve had some interesting sexual experiences. They will all be with me for life. They have each affected me on some level, precisely because I went into it (no pun intended) with an open heart and mind. I do think it’s sad if someone just fucks endlessly like a robot. Usually there are psychological issues at play if that is the case.

    But when you don’t try to label something or force the relationships in a certain direction, it can be very rewarding. Sometimes the best experiences happen when you least expect them.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Ya’ll aren’t the only ones who stay up late Ted and Playboy lol!

    Morgan, would you mind if I post your comments on my blog. If you want, I can have you as anonymous. I think that with all the stuff I’ve seen on other blogs in the ‘sphere, your comments puts things in a new light. I especially liked how you connected it with “Eat, Pray, Love” :P

  • Annie

    Going back to what Mireille said about how does a woman communicate that she wants more. How on earth does a woman do that without coming off as scary? I’m asking the men here.

    Even at 25, I wasn’t comfortable communicating to my husband when we first started dating that I actually wanted to settle down, get married and have children. He, apparently, had me pegged as some hardened, aggressive, career woman with a tattoo or two. Because he had assumed that since “everyone else” was like that, I must be too. But it’s simply not possible to sit at home and be fluffy and bake all day because women have to do something between leaving school/college and getting married in their late twenties.

  • RamblingMadman

    It’s never “just sex”. The very desire itself to pursue sexual intimacy proves this. Our brains are simply hardwired to derive more pleasure from intercourse than it from a strict physical viewpoint most often is, friction between bodies, out of psychological need and evolutionary necessity.

    While some individuals could handle NSA sex better than others it’s just proof that for almost any general human behavior there are individual benefits acting outside it.
    But make no mistake, the simple fact it’s beneficial is because it’s not the norm. It doesn’t imply this behavior is “wrong”. Just that it cannot be made “right” for everyone without also losing the very reason to adopt it.

  • VD

    If you look at Europe, people have a much more laid back attitude towards sex than in the US.

    No, they really don’t. This is an American myth. I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend, but they don’t really do the casual sex thing. Even if they don’t marry, they live in monogamous relationships that last longer than many American marriages.

    About the only time Europeans behave much like Americans is on the last day or two of Carnival. As one Australian drily commented to me during Carnival, “all the young guys at the office are going crazy today because it’s the one night of the year they might actually get laid.”

    Or to quote one gleeful German friend during his first visit to the USA: “I love zee American bitches!”

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    VD:

    Myth? Hardly. You don’t have to embrace casual sex, or polygamous sex, to be more sexually open than Americans. Prostitution is legal or effectively legal all over Europe; gay marriage is the law of the land; marriage has declined and extramarital sex is the norm; teenage sex is accepted willingly; sex education is strongly supported and uncontroversial, as is access to contraception; there is no religious right to speak of; sexual content in movies/ TV is accepted with an open attitude; public nudity is something of a national hobby in Germany… do these facts describe a “conservative” sexual culture?

    Annie:

    how does a woman communicate that she wants more. How on earth does a woman do that without coming off as scary?

    Frankly, any man who is “scared” by a woman who knows what she wants, and confident in herself (whether he is on the same page or not) is not worth your time. Most men probably think women naturally want a little more commitment in general, so it’s almost implied. That’s my 2 cents, FWIW.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    “No, they really don’t. This is an American myth. I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. ”

    Thank you, I very much wanted to live in Europe later in life but had decided against it for this very reason.

    As it turns out, my fears may be unfounded, gives me something to research.

  • setting the record straight

    As an European who lived in America, I can say European people are more sexually liberated in theory (when we speak, the way we think, the laws we create, the TV programs) but more monogamous in practice (in our behavior). Maybe we don’t marry that much but most cohabitations last a lifetime and they are marriages in everything but the name.

    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    An old post from Heartiste :

    He asked his women this question :

    “Imagine you could only go to one of two places for vacation. One place is Spain, where you will enjoy coffee at sidewalk cafes while people watching, lounging on beautiful beaches under a warm sun, visiting cultural landmarks and museums, and dancing and drinking away the night in exciting clubs.

    You ride up and down narrow streets on a scooter, eating the best food Spain has to offer and learning to speak a few words of Spanish.

    The other place is Antarctica (Or Patagonia or Tibet. Season to taste.), where you will be alone with the wonder and power of the natural world, your breath taken away by awesome sights and incredible wildlife, giant glaciers loom over you and the rocky beach is filled with penguins and elephant seals.

    You are at one with nature, your stress melting away, and you feel alive. Which vacation do you choose?”

    And what did Heartiste say about the Museum Girls ?

    She is likely to be a status whore
    She is likely to do hard recreational drugs, or think about doing them
    She will be high maintenance
    She likes to dress in sexy clothes
    Her shoes are plentiful and nonfunctional
    She is a raving liberal who loathes rules, timetables, and schedules
    She is spontaneous
    She is flaky
    She is generous of spirit
    She will go out of her way to make sure everyone is having fun
    She is malleable
    She is dependent
    She is admiring
    She is exasperating
    She is a drama queen
    She wants kids, eventually
    She likes cats
    She generally likes people
    She is whimsical
    She is a glib optimist
    She frets
    She cries
    She will expect you to pay
    She loves shopping, especially on your dime
    She cares what kind of car you drive, the shoes you wear, the TV you own
    She will love getting jewelry from you
    She has a lot of superficial yenta screechaholic friends and gay boyfriends
    She prefers making love whenever and wherever the mood strikes
    She is pro-PDA
    She is an attention whore
    She is an incorrigible flirt
    She gets turned on when you ignore her
    She just wants a man who will understand her
    She is more aroused by a man’s social status than by his charm or looks
    She is extraverted
    She hates hates hates betas
    She loves badboys
    She desperately, secretly wishes to submit to a dominant man, in all ways and at all times
    She is more like her mother than her father
    She was popular in high school
    She lost her virginity later in life than you would think
    She is not particularly adventurous, but she is silly fun
    She is a party girl
    She is afraid of food
    She has an anal fixation
    She huffs lurid gossip
    She’ll keep you guessing
    She is ultrafeminine
    She might cheat and you will find out
    She has an STD and will deny if you ask
    She will heal or she will break your heart

    And what did Heartiste say about the Nature Girls ?

    She won’t care very much what you do for a living or how much you make
    She has smoked pot and prefers beer to cosmos
    She will be low maintenance
    She won’t dress sexily very often, and when she does it will seem unnatural on her
    Her shoes are few and functional
    She is a raving liberal who loves rules, timetables, and schedules
    She is a planner
    She is intractable
    She is selfish at heart
    She will go out of her way to make sure she is having fun
    She is set in her ways
    She is independent
    She is circumspect
    She is reliable
    She is serenity now
    She is often adamant about not wanting kids
    She likes dogs
    She generally hates people
    She is grounded
    She is a cynical fatalist
    She compartmentalizes
    She snarks
    She will almost always pay half, without hesitation
    She hates shopping, and has few yuppie possessions
    She hates materialism and prefers items with “character” instead of “price tag”
    She will love getting homemade cards from you
    She has no gay boyfriends and the few friends she has are nerdy
    She prefers making love in the bedroom
    She is anti-PDA
    She avoids drawing attention to herself
    She doesn’t know how to flirt
    She gets annoyed if she thinks you aren’t listening to her
    She just wants a man who will respect her
    She is more aroused by a man’s personality and looks than by his social status
    She is introverted
    She tolerates betas
    She is wary of badboys
    She hates controlling men, but will often wish a man would take the initiative and lead instead of her doing it all the time
    She is more like her father than her mother
    She was invisible in high school
    She lost her virginity earlier in life than you would think
    She is adventurous, but not silly fun
    She is a spiritual girl
    She loves eating
    She has an oral fixation
    She relishes moments of solitude and silence
    She’ll keep you wondering if you can do better
    She has some masculine personality traits
    She might cheat and you won’t find out
    She has an STD and will admit it if you ask
    She will heal or she will break your soul

    I suspect it’s the Museum Girls that made the bulk of Suzan’s respondents in all the studies she cited. So where are the Nature Girls then ?

    Now if you’re a Nature Girl and you can identify some traits of a Museum Girl within you, then all I can say is this :

    If you’ve had a few beers, and go outside, and then see an big white kitty running towards you, please remove your Jimmy Choo’s … that way you might just outrun the Siberian Tiger …

    But if you’re Museum Girl, and for some obscure reason, you can identify some traits of a Nature Girl within you, then all I can say is this :

    If you find yourself somewhat intoxicated after baring your soul to a wonderful man, and then in a delicate situation where you’re roaring like a lion, but your ass is starting to feel so good … remember to thank that wonderful witchdoctor for the strong laxatives ‘medicines’ he gave you …

  • jack

    This, of course, is why I am not interested in marrying a woman with an N much higher than 3.

    The effects on her psyche are just not something I care to deal with.

    Date them? Bring all the N you got! I don’t care. But marriage is too big a risk to my future to engage in it.

  • LJ

    Why would you date someone you’d never consider marrying? That just runs up your “N,” if you care about that stuff.

  • angelguy

    “Why would you date someone you’d never consider marrying?”

    Short-term, they are often the ones that will put out.
    Long-term, they are trouble.

  • LJ

    If you can’t find someone to put out who you could see being serious about, you should improve yourself or reconsider your priorities in a partner, IMO.

    I just think getting into a dead-end relationship, where the other person has a dealbreaker for you — religion, high partner count, etc– is dumb.

  • Sassy6519

    Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.

  • angelguy

    “Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.”

    @sassy

    I have to agree with you there, we all don’t have the option of being that picky, and patience to wait for Mr or Mrs. Perfect for me to come along.

    “If you can’t find someone to put out who you could see being serious about, you should improve yourself or reconsider your priorities in a partner”

    @L.J.
    I think improving ones self is always a good idea, not for a partner, but for ones self. But one also has to accept the fact that the reasons they gets rejected may have nothing to do with who they are, how much they make or how they look.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Re : Frustated Black American Men in Brazil.

    I can understand why Obsidian says that the black community is the canary in the coalmine.

  • angelguy

    “I haven’t followed the Brazil convo closely, and didn’t view the link, but I will emphatically state that I support people finding love wherever they choose, and wherever they can. I don’t see what national borders have to do with it, or why it’s anyone else’s business.

    There is a young family on my street which is pretty obviously a mail-order bride situation – he’s older, and she’s young and Vietnamese. They have a beautiful little boy and seem extremely happy together. It seems to me that’s what we want more of – stable, productive families.”

    @ Susan

    I agree with you there.

    I noticed the looking for love across borders has been a Male thing on this thread.
    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

  • Sai

    Crapshoot~
    No, it’s worse than a crapshoot. Hey gambling people, what game has worse odds than a crapshoot?

  • Escoffier

    Not that I am a gambler, but they say craps has the best odds of any game in the casino.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Sue: “In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.”

    See, this is the good stuff here. Comparing the casual numbers to relationship numbers bolsters the case much better than an isolated number. I’ve harped on this many times, thanks for digging it out.

    Though, it probably would be better to compare first-time relationship sex vs. first-time casual, to illustrate the effect of a hookup. That aside, it’s clear you’ll have a better sex life with a long-term partner.

    (Although stating “men reached orgasm more often than women” is sort of pointless. Sure, men come easier, but have much less capacity for multiples. Given what I’ve seen, I think women have the better end of the deal, here.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (Although stating “men reached orgasm more often than women” is sort of pointless. Sure, men come easier, but have much less capacity for multiples. Given what I’ve seen, I think women have the better end of the deal, here.)

      Not the 32% who didn’t even come once. The truth is, the ability to orgasm and frequency of orgasm varies highly among women. 80% do not come from intercourse alone. The lower oral sex numbers don’t look so promising for those women.

      Based on what you’ve said here, it would be highly erroneous for you to extrapolate the general experience of women from the highly orgasmic, breastgasmic, simultaneousgasmic Mrs. OTC.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan #66, exactly. She is a physiological outlier, and saying we got the better end of the deal is like saying the lottery jackpot winner got the better end of the deal than the person who worked hard and didn’t become a millionaire.

  • J

    But it’s simply not possible to sit at home and be fluffy and bake all day because women have to do something between leaving school/college and getting married in their late twenties.

    Historically, there was only a brief window in time where that was possible. A miniscule number of women have lived out the 1950′s image of ladylike housewife in heels baking in a clean, modern kitchen. More women never went school, married young and were old ladies worn down by the stresses of many children and poor nutrition by their late twenties. In pictures taken in the 1940s, both my immigrant grandmothers look 80-90 while actually being 50-60. And one, a mother of nine, actually balanced “being fluffy” with keeping the family’s grocery store open while my grandfather worked a second job.

    I was a kid in the 1950s, and none of the moms I knew IRL ever looked like these:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=1950s+housewife&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4TSNJ_enUS445US445&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oyk6Uf7nNMXw0QHe9oGADg&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1093&bih=454

  • J

    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

    My huisband who, as a kid, spent many years on military bases in the Bible Belt, characterizes it as “Drunk and cheating on Saturday night, repentent on Sunday morning.” Lots of Church, lots of backsliding. Yet, I do think there is a core of moderate, middle class American mores that is being ignored here. The hook-up scene, while highly visible, is statistically smaller than it is being portrayed here.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Come on, you’re getting punchy, even when I agree with you. Truce?

    I’m not extrapolating from or to anything, or bragging. Just stating the hopefully obvious fact women have a far greater *capacity* for orgasm than men do, whether it’s realized or not, whatever it’s method it’s attained from. Women don’t have refractory periods.

    If I were female and needed oral, I’d damn well insist on it. (How many men refuse? Are they crazy?) And If I needed a vibrator, heck, I can pick a “personal massager” at the corner drugstore. I mean, what excuse is there? I say, take control and assert your desires.

    We’ve joked in the past what it would be like to switch sex for the day, remember? That would be the first thing on my list. Multiple orgasm with no waiting!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Nah, I wasn’t punchy, I was kidding around. However, I maintain that you don’t have a good understanding of the typical female experience, since you are married to a highly atypical female. For example, I have a definite refractory period – not the same as a man’s – but such incredible sensitivity after orgasm I need to give my nerve endings time to calm down before even thinking about more stimulation. When my husband was young his period was shorter than mine!

      I think if you could measure all the orgasms in the female and male orgasm buckets, the male buckets would have many more. There are something like 20% of women who can’t even orgasm alone :( the female orgasm is actually highly unreliable compared to the male’s.

      Another issue is that men view giving various kinds of orgasms as some sort of contest. You have proudly (and repeatedly) shown us your Female Ejaculation, Breastgasm, and G-Spot Badges, for example. This serves as a sort of misinformation that makes many women feel like they just can’t produce the orgasm the man is hell bent on giving them. Nearly all the questions I get from women about sex are of this type: “My boyfriend is trying so hard to give me a G-spot orgasm but I don’t feel anything there! What is wrong with me?” Women are being barraged with these male expectations around sexual performance! To the men I say, “Back off!”

      Finally, I find that most men are not even well-informed about the physiology. The orgasm is clitoral. Period. It may be stimulated from any source potentially – some women can achieve orgasm just by thinking about it. But the waves of contractions occur at the clitoris and radiate outward from there. It’s not surprising there are so many myths – hucksters make YouTube videos and advertise on porn sites.

      And of course, even to this day, there is not consensus among sex scientists about some female responses, including female ejaculation. For example, scientists suggest that the liquid comes from the bladder and is about a thimbleful at most. These videos that show women releasing large amounts of liquid are showing either urination or perhaps the release of having been pumped full of water!

      In short, female orgasmic response is not a male accomplishment, and I don’t believe it is healthy for women when it is treated as such.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan, Hope and OTC

    I agree that women span a variety of orgasmic capabilities.

    I will point out that the man can play a huge role too in “assisting” the woman psychologically, emotionally and physically to have better orgasms.

    I think that every man should learn a lot more about what turns on women in general and his specific woman in particular and help her reach her orgasmic potential, whatever the boundaries on that might be. Without becoming needy, men should take pleasure in pleasing their wife or gf and not just do the 10 minute hip shake and go to sleep.

    At the risk of TMI, something I have been waaaaaaaay guilty of lately, I will briefly share that one woman I was with wasn’t able to orgasm with most of the handful of other men she’d been with. I took it as a challenge to figure her out. It took some work and some “scientific” experimentation ;) but we figured out what worked and she was quite grateful and happy.

    I think men should have the courage to explore to find out what she likes, but from the frame of doing it because he wants to turn her on, not from a pedastalizing hoping that they will be able to turn her on so that she won’t be tempted to leave him (the fear a guy might have, not that she is necessarily thinking that). They shouldn’t go overboard and start being needy about it. This exploring her desires shouldn’t be all or even most of the time, but maybe every third time or something (and then once you find something that works do that a lot with a little further exploration added in from time to time). A lot of the time he should just do what he likes (assuming it’s not hurting her) because women, IME, really love when their man go wild with desire for her.

    Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.

    But men are a huge part of the equation and if they became better lovers they could certainly help their partner a huge amount.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.

      Sometimes there are psychological barriers, and sometimes it’s a lack of experience. But often women are simply not built to experience the full range of orgasms they reportedly should be capable of.

      I think it’s great that a man wants to help a woman feel pleasure during sex, however she defines that. Most women can enjoy sex very much at times without having an orgasm at all. Since women generally want sex less frequently than men, a loving wife who always says yes is sometimes in it for your sake. She may be more interested in pleasing you, enjoying the intimacy and going to sleep than staying up till one in the morning for multiple orgasms, lol.

  • Angelguy

    “If I were female and needed oral, I’d damn well insist on it. (How many men refuse? Are they crazy?) And If I needed a vibrator, heck, I can pick a “personal massager” at the corner drugstore. I mean, what excuse is there? I say, take control and assert your desires.”

    @Off the Cuff

    I wish I know more women that thought like you.

    Feel she got picked on a bitmuch in that other post.

  • Lokland

    Just a couple thoughts on orgasm potential.

    Orgasm produces chemicals (oxytocin) that increase bonding.
    More women orgasm during sex within the context of a relationship than without which suggests that the female orgasm may have developed as a way to ensure bonding and thus fidelity. (Which lens credence to the Dad>Cad theory.)

    Some other more practical applications, the more a woman orgasms, the more bonded she is to the guy in question.

    From this we could infer (hypothetically) that highly orgasmic women are more faithful than less orgasmic women. (Which would also explain the very high male desire to have a woman that orgasms. Sometimes to a pathological degree of need, as HS mentioned.)

    As the final inference, we can infer that a women who has less orgasms is therefore more likely to cheat or is simply not attracted to the man in question.

    It would also mean that the less orgasmic women are also those least likely to be faithful in a relationship or pursue STM. (As seen by the difference in orgasm quantity between the two groups.)

    —-

    This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect,
    instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

    If this is true, its far better to choose a women who shatters glass than one who does not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect,
      instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

      This is a very interesting hypothesis!

      How does that square with promiscuous women often having higher T? If they can “have sex like a man” because they are like a man, shouldn’t they orgasm readily?

      And if they didn’t, why would they actually enjoy all that casual sex? I’m talking here about the 25% of women who seek casual sex habitually and do not appear to regret it.

      There are two other things I wonder about:

      1. Orgasm via masturbation also produces oxytocin.

      2. Oxytocin floods men as well after orgasm – not sure how this works with the finding that male attraction to the female decreases after his orgasm.

  • Escoffier

    Lok, I have reason to believe that is true but I am not sure I want to give any details.

  • Joe

    @Sassy

    Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.

    Heh! I say this in all kindness, Sassy, but you’re dead wrong.

    Gee, I used to walk around calling myself a “choosy beggar!” It was a plaintive cry to the wind and to anyone who would put up with me that “wwwwaaaaaaa! – I’m not haaaappppyyyyy!” (See? Men do it too.)

    I was always amazed by the denizens of the long-dead usenet who’d complain that they could never find a good man in one breath, and then say with the next that “Yup. I need to raise my standards and be choosier about who I go out with!” Choosy beggars are a dime a dozen.

    What you really mean to say is that even beggars can be choosy, but they’re going to be frustrated and unhappy – right? It’s harder to realize that frustration and unhappiness are emotions that come from within, not from without, like a cute guy who asks you out on a date or a cute girl who smiles at you.

    It takes some time to learn that frustration and unhappiness are not things you can avoid like a pile of dog excrement on the pavement. They are just states of mind.

    People with a low SMV can be picky. Sometimes they’re just more careful with the things they’re picky about.

  • J

    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

    I think that, in ethnic communities that maintain ties with friends and relatives in the old country, it’s not uncommon for American born women to marry foreign borm men of the same origins. Often those men will settle in US because life is better here. I don’t think many women say to themselves “I hear that men is X or Y third world country make good husbands, so I’ll go there.” In fact, I would suppose that overall that’s a bad deal for women. No women who has the economic resources to do that sort of travel is going to want to live in the economically disadvantaged third world, especially in places where women have fewer rights. In contrast, a Russian, Asian or South American bride who comes to the West will most often lead a freer and more prosperous life in the West than she would have otherwise.

  • J

    Multiple orgasm with no waiting!

    Unfortunately, orgasms are not equally distributed across the female population. Your wife seems to be a far end of the curve, but there are plenty of middle-aged women who even after decades of marriage have not experienced ONE orgasm. In a juster world, women like your wife would donate their surplus orgasms to those women. In fact, come the revolution, they will have to. From each according to her ability to each according to her need!!!

  • Abbot

    Yet another feminist propaganda message under the guise of “compassion” when in fact its meant to get everyone to be seen as a blank slate directed only by autonomy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2GIu5ZpnTM&feature=player_embedded

    .

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    HanSolo “I will point out that the man can play a huge role too in “assisting” the woman psychologically, emotionally and physically to have better orgasms.”

    Yes this is true. My husband is the only one who was able to give me real orgasms, and a big part of that is psychological/emotional.

    Lokland “instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.”

    I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.”

    Problem with this is that the numbers clearly show the opposite trend to be true.

    I’ve held this hypothesis for quite a while and have a few other supporting details that I left out.

    If people want it, my narcissist will be happy to deliver.

    @Esc

    I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    As an European who lived in America, I can say European people are more sexually liberated in theory (when we speak, the way we think, the laws we create, the TV programs) but more monogamous in practice (in our behavior). Maybe we don’t marry that much but most cohabitations last a lifetime and they are marriages in everything but the name.
    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

    THIS!

    I suspect it’s the Museum Girls that made the bulk of Suzan’s respondents in all the studies she cited. So where are the Nature Girls then ?
    I hated the Antarctica scenario. Antarctica is pretty cold you know? I hate the cold. This test is not as accurate as it claims to be, IMO>

    I’m not extrapolating from or to anything, or bragging. Just stating the hopefully obvious fact women have a far greater *capacity* for orgasm than men do, whether it’s realized or not, whatever it’s method it’s attained from. Women don’t have refractory periods.
    I think this might be an spectrum and fewer women are capable of multiples than the other way around. It might also be needed a combo of genetic compatibility, deep relationship and the right environment. Given the reports of how different women experiment ‘the big O’

  • Lokland

    @J

    On the Western women- foreign man thing.

    I think there is negative selection from both parties.
    The women for the economic (hyperaemic) reasons you stated.

    Another factor is that American women (specifically whites and blacks) are globally regarded as the sluttiest women in existence who are DTF.

    I’ve heard this opinion from a lot of men, who strangely, have never actually fucked an American women.

    But still, most would want the sex but not to actually commit based upon the global image American women have.

    So, its a case where both groups, really don’t want anything to do with one another (for the long-term).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland, what numbers are you talking about? If I were having casual sex, I’m positive I wouldn’t have an orgasm. Then again I never have had casual sex. I knew that casual sex would have zero positive net outcome for me. But if a woman can easily achieve orgasm with any man, then for her having casual sex would be fun even without any emotional bonding. She’d get hers no matter what. See what I mean?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Then again this theory of mine is mostly based on my own past difficulty in orgasming with guys even in relationships, and reading a handful of female sex bloggers who were all about casual sex and touted their highly orgasmic abilities. One mentioned squirting. So it’s not a representative sample.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “Lokland, what numbers are you talking about? ”

    From Susan’s post.

    “19. Men reached orgasm more often than women. In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.”

    “She’d get hers no matter what. See what I mean?”

    Numbers above show that this is very clearly not the case. Girlfriends have orgasms, sluts get fucked.

    So, I follow your logic, it just doesn’t hold in the real world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      It’s very clear in the research that college guys fuck sluts and don’t give two shits about their orgasms. My guess is that 80% of casual sex is straight jackhammer. Even a girl who is crazy in love is not going to orgasm with a guy who’s getting off with another warm body in the room.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.
    Since I belong to that club I can say that is probably more complex. I never worried too much about sexual compatibility because I knew I don’t need a HUGE production to get off so I could place it on secondary level and be attracted to what my partner and I will be doing the majority of time: character, compatibility level of geekness… Many of my friends did a lot of crazy things to have a particularly jerkish guy and tolerated a lot of crap from them, because ‘I don’t know if I will ever feel this way again’ talking about a strong attraction that promised head spinning orgasms, so dunno there most be something else at work, YMMV.

  • J

    This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect, instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

    It seems to me that “relationship women” fall in the middle of the curve. The woman who can have an orgasm any time, any place, any where, with anyone, probably will. The woman who can’t have one easily in a relationship will either seek another relationship or give up entirely with sex becoming a chore within the relationship. The woman who is satified by her partner and not by non-relationship sex will most likely stay put.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    J: “there are plenty of middle-aged women who even after decades of marriage have not experienced ONE orgasm.”

    I know I’m spoiled, I can see multiples being uncommon with a partner, but I wasn’t talking about that necessarily. But (and correct me if I’m wrong), women should know their body well enough to do it to themselves.

  • Escoffier

    Well, to both Hope and Lok, not sure about that. Purely anecdotal and case study of one but …

    My college GF had some hook-ups before she met me. Then she went (as it were) VolCel for a long time (two years, I think). She told me that she had not orgasmed with the hook-ups. You might object that she was lying and of course I have no way of knowing but she was, in general, close to the most guileless person I have never met. She lied to me only one time in more than 3 years and felt so bad she came clean within days. That was very early on. Never happened again, or if it did, I never found out. Also never had any reason to be suspicious.

    Anyway, she orgasmed VERY easily. Over and over, too. The bond was strong. The breakup was painful (for her).

    I have other anectodal evidence to support the theory but will leave it at that for now.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland actually only a small % of women are highly orgasmic and able to have one no matter what, so the 10% figure makes sense.

    So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.

    Put it another way, most women are not highly orgasmic and need a lot more “work” to get to an orgasm, and so they can have them in relationships because men will put in that work.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Hope: “My husband is the only one who was able to give me real orgasms, and a big part of that is psychological/emotional.”

    This is exactly the same as how our relationship started, and is now.

    But, you should know, that her vaunted sensitivity now is the progressive result of 20 years of emotional bonding. Married sex just keeps getting better and better, even compared to just 5 years ago. You’ve got a lifetime to look forward to.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland and Hope

    I agree that orgasm helps women bond.

    Let’s look at it this way. The woman who doesn’t orgasm easily but then finds that man who can help her achieve real orgasms (kind of like Hope) will bond much more to that man than the woman who is able to orgasm easily with a wider array of men. So, I don’t necessarily agree that easy-to-orgasm women are more able to bond.

    Also, I think that to whatever extent orgasm aids the sperm in moving upstream and fertilize that that could provide a woman in a promiscuous environment the ability to help the sperm of the man that best pushes her buttons better. If the man just doesn’t cut it she’s less likely to orgasm, relative to herself (not relative to other women).

    Ever heard the phrase “10′s are the worst in bed?” lol A woman told me that one, getting at the point that if the woman is higher in value than the man (or thinks she is) that she just won’t get excited and so it can have something to do with their relative perceived rankings.

    Also, the nervous lower status guy that orgasms quickly without turning her on and getting her to cum is less likely to impregnate her (assuming orgasm helps and I’ve read it does but not sure if it really does).

    The confident “alpha” that wasn’t afraid of some other guy to knock him off of her could take his time and she would gradually warm up and more likely orgasm with that guy than with the 4-minute man. Perhaps the harder to excite trait of the hotter woman is a weeding-out mechanism.

    Just a few ideas to add to the mix. Thoughts?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, if she was in love with you, that makes sense.

    Love is what gets women who aren’t normally orgasmic (i.e in hookup situations) to achieve it in relationships.

    When both people are in love, it’s total fireworks. I have simultaneous ones with my husband. I didn’t think it was possible, especially given my prior difficulties.

  • Rhen

    Does it really require satisfying/orgasmic sex to get the oxytocin-bonding effect, or JUST sex, however mediocre? What about all those relationships in past centuries where most men supposedly didn’t know how to do foreplay right, or at all…did bonding not take place if there were no or few female orgasms?

    Also what about orgasms that don’t involve penetration, as with a hot and heavy hookup? Do these have the same bonding effect as PIV?

    Wonder if these questions have ever been studied.

  • Jesse

    Pretty sure men can have multiple orgasms as well.

    I have semi-kinda-sorta done this, but I haven’t practiced enough. I just have more important things to practice in my life than masturbation.

    —–

    Also, weird story for you folks: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the-bikini-model-and-the-suitcase-full-of-trouble.html?hp&hp&_r=1&;

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Rhen, I’m skeptical of oxytocin. The machine that pumps my milk helps me produce oxytocin, but I’m not bonded to it. :P

    HanSolo, I have thought of those as well. However, on Wikipedia there is the nonadaptive hypothesis, and mentions the “relative difficulty of achieving female orgasm through vaginal sex” and “the limited evidence for increased fertility after orgasm.”

  • Jesse

    Regarding vaginal orgasms, has anybody tried this David Shade deep spot bullshit? Google it, I don’t want smut on my computer…

  • Ted D

    Damn I must be spoiled too. I am in not trying to brag (since my N of 4 isn’t a very good pool to sample from), but I’ve never had an issue with a LTR mate having issues getting an O.

    Since I’m already in TMI territory since last night (I get slap happy when I’m tired and can’t sleep.) I’ve watched my wife rub one out for herself in under 2 minutes. If she wants an orgasm during sex, she has one. I can count on one hand with fingers left over the times since we started having sex that getting her an orgasm took real effort.

    She is by far the most orgasmic of my LTR mates, but of all the things they complained about to me, it was never that the sex sucked.

    LOL maybe I am bragging. *shrug*

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ted D “I’ve watched my wife rub one out for herself in under 2 minutes.”

    A lot of women can do fine by themselves but have trouble with someone else. I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done), but still can’t get anywhere with a guy during the act itself. So I think there is definitely something very psychological going on with it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    It’s not like either of us went in, trying to make it happen. We had no idea until it did. It was more like “oh, that happened years ago… THAT’S what it was? Hey, can we do it again, intentionally?” Thanks to the internet, we’ve been able to educate ourselves and make good things better. If people take my statements as some sort of challenge that’s on them.

    Does it work the other way around? Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Does it work the other way around? Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?

      I’ve seen men here on the threads admit that rather sheepishly, so I guess it happens.

      In general, I think there’s a ton of focus in our culture on sexual performance. Anxiety about it hampers orgasm, for both men and women, so the less we pressure people to live up to a porn standard, the better sex we’ll all be having, IMO.

      For example, women in porn scream a lot, saying, “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls. Women have told me that their boyfriends shared disappointment that they weren’t more vocal during sex. Young guys are also often astounded to learn that many women don’t beg for anal. I even know one couple where after months of his pulling out to ejaculate on her face, she complained, and he was astounded to learn that wasn’t the typical female preference!

      Seriously, things are wacked in the SMP, especially for the kids. Porn has done such a number on men, and by association, on women.

      Andrew of Rules Revisited, who I like a lot, has one post where he gives women the best angles to assume during sex and how much they should arch their backs so that they look best to their partners. And the women are taking that very seriously. I can tell you that a woman who is thinking, “OK, 3/4 turn here, back arched, flip hair back now” is NOT building to an orgasm!

      Every couple who gets together should lock themselves in for 48 hours and spend the whole weekend in bed, with brief breaks for meals. The goal is to learn the other person’s body and how the two of you work best together. I hope Cooper is planning something like this. :)

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        It’s also clear in the research that men believe women had orgasms or were highly stimulated when they didn’t. There is great discrepancy when women and men report whether the females climaxed.

        Sorry, guys: Up to 80 percent of women admit faking it

        In Brewer’s survey, more than 25 percent of women routinely used vocalization to fake it. They did it about 90 percent of the time they realized they would not climax. About 80 percent faked using vocalizations about half the time they were unable to have an orgasm.

        Women do this because their men are so goal-directed they won’t stop until a woman climaxes, the authors say.

        That does not surprise Charlene Muehlenhard, professor of clinical psychology at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. In a 2009 study she co-authored in the Journal of Sex Research, called “Men’s and Women’s Reports of Pretending Orgasm,” she explored the idea that men and women tend to follow scripted roles. Men are supposed to give a woman an orgasm “and her orgasm proves the quality of his work,” she said. Because women do not ejaculate, men have to rely on some other outward sign, like a woman singing “Oh Sweet Mystery of Life!” (“Young Frankenstein”) to know we’ve done our job.

        So women vocalize as a way of saying “attaboy” even if they weren’t all that excited. As one woman told Muehlenhard, “I pretended to have an orgasm so that my partner would [finish]. He couldn’t [finish] until I orgasmed.”

        And re those porn vocalizations:

        A study released last month in the Archives of Sexual Behavior shows that those seemingly uncontrollable “ohmigods” during apparent orgasm are often play-acting meant to “manipulate” men.

        The scientists asked women between the ages of 18 and 48 a series of questions. They broke down the vocalizations into categories that included “silence,” “moan/groan,” “scream/shriek/squeal,” “words” (such as “Yes!” or the partner’s name, and “instructional commands” like “more.” Other questions asked why the women made the vocalizations and at what point they themselves had an orgasm, if they had an orgasm at all, and, if not, why they were doing all that shouting.

        Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.

        In other words, the sounds the women emitted were not because they were out-of-control excited. Indeed, when they were most excited, say during oral sex when they were more likely to have an orgasm, they didn’t do much of the old scream-n-shout.

        Rather, it was a tactic they used to induce their man to do something, like get it over with. In most cases, they were also trying to be nice. “Importantly, 92 percent of participants felt very strongly that these vocalizations boosted their partner’s self-esteem,” the paper stated, “and 87 percent reported using them for this purpose,” like the hilarious scene from the 1975 movie “The Stepford Wives”: “You’re the king, Frank!”

        One young woman told me that her boyfriend tried so hard to get her to orgasm, that if she came close but no cigar he’d berate himself: “Dammit, I’m 0 for 2!”

        This goal directed sex has got to go. I don’t write about sex much here, but this is a huge topic in my focus groups and in emails I receive.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Hope: “I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done).”

    This is what I was talking about, before you all piled on – would be awesome to experience.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OTC “Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?”

    My husband never had an orgasm from BJs until me, and he didn’t like them much. Maybe I just have great enthusiasm and technique?

    Anyway, thanks for saying that it gets better with the years. Something to look forward to!

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    I hated the Antarctica scenario. Antarctica is pretty cold you know? I hate the cold. This test is not as accurate as it claims to be, IMO>

    Try again.

  • J

    But (and correct me if I’m wrong), women should know their body well enough to do it to themselves.

    I think some can have an orgasm alone, but not with a partner.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan, I agree that each woman will have some range of what she’s capable of. My main point is that some/many women could approach the higher limit of her range under the right circumstances and that might be somewhat higher than what she thinks based on past experience.

    This is exemplified by Hope’s experience, of how being with the right man with emotional stability and love allowed her to experience things beyond what she did before and perhaps beyond what she thought possible previously.

    Of course, this shouldn’t be taken too far to place unrealistic expectations on women or men.

    Regarding the g-spot and other inner vaginal spots, from reading and personal experience with women, you can’t just go in cold. You have to “pre-heat” the woman and get her quite excited before those spots awaken. I’m not saying what % of women will respond to this–I don’t know, maybe a good many can’t even under optimal circumstances–just reporting what I’ve seen.

  • J

    @Marellus #50

    Sometimes Heartiste reads like Cosmo for guys.

  • J

    @Ted #39

    Sweet post!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Every couple who gets together should lock themselves in for 48 hours and spend the whole weekend in bed, with brief breaks for meals. The goal is to learn the other person’s body and how the two of you work best together.
    My guess this is why the ancient invented the honeymoon right after the wedding. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My guess this is why the ancient invented the honeymoon right after the wedding.

      Haha you are right, I didn’t even think of that! There used to be something called Honeymoon Cystitis. And of course the poor couple would be wincing when they walked by about day 4.

  • Ted D

    Hope – 5 in an hour? I’ve never been so jealous of female sexuality…

    Yeah I’m sure solo is far different than team sports (as it is for men). I can go from start to finish flying solo in 5 minutes or less if I’m pressed for time. Of course that is partly because I’m not looking to enjoy the experience, I’m trying to get it done so I can move on.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Sometimes [ awww, you should read that blog more ] Heartiste reads [... more than you ... heh] like Cosmo [Brown?] for guys.[ I'm singing in the rain ]

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    My theory (non-scientifc usage) is really just a large collection of thoughts/ideas that have dots connected between them.

    Theres probably a million and one inconsistencies that need to be worked out before it flows in a way I find acceptable.

    Guess I have something to do this weekend.

    I’ll write it out in Word and post it here after working it out fully (and I will address your concerns).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Thanks, I’m very interested in your thoughts. If true, that would reveal a great deal! I wonder if any research has been done on this…

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.”

    This is an overstatement of my point.

    I’m not sure if you understand the concept of genetic liability thresholds but a similar idea can apply here.

    Basically theres is X amount of orgasm (or whatever) that needs to be achieved to maintain fidelity. Obviously the high orgasm women get this with one man easily (and go above and beyond the necessity, others might scrape it.)

    But fidelity is dichotomous, you either cheat or you don’t (in the PinV sense).

    So thats where you place the required X, values below are cheaters, values above are faithful.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    If anyone would have suggested a 48-hour sex-a-thon to me a few years ago, I would have thought they were sex-obsessed hedonists. What’s the hurry? Gonna break up? (Not now, obviously.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If anyone would have suggested a 48-hour sex-a-thon to me a few years ago, I would have thought they were sex-obsessed hedonists.

      In my case it was not a planned activity, just the most fun we could think of having on the weekend in the early days…I think it falls under the heading of “I can’t get enough of you.”

      Sex, sleep, sex, peanut butter on crackers, sex, pillow talk, cinnamon toast, sex, nap, tomato soup and grilled cheese, sex, nap, etc.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ted D “I’ve never been so jealous of female sexuality…”

    Honestly it’s nothing great. Any of the ones I have with my husband beats them all out of the park. I don’t do anything without him because it’s a shame to waste my energy on anything else. :P

  • Ted D

    Susan – its easy to fix that need for faking: just tell your mate you aren’t interested in an orgasm and just want him to enjoy himself. I have no problem knocking out a quickie if my wife isn’t up for the full Monte, as long as she is still enthusiastic about the sex. (Which she is). In fact, sometimes she teases me during those quickies just to see how quickly she can make me pop. She always gets the best of me, and I don’t mind a bit. ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      Quickies are an important part of married life!

      I advise young women never to fake it, no matter how uncomfortable. It can be very awkward for them, but a girl who does this is backing herself into a corner. I had one relationship that I ultimately had to end because the sex was bad and I’d pretended it was good. There was just no way to reveal that what he’d been doing all that time didn’t get the job done after I’d pretended otherwise. And I was too shy (Imagine that) to ask for what I really did like.

      I agree with those who say a woman is responsible for her own orgasms. There are many ways to help a guy learn your body when there is intimacy and trust. This is why I’ve always assumed they are harder to come by during hookups.

  • J

    I’m not actually a fan of Cosmo, Marellus. I find the “lists and quizzes” approach to relationships somewhat reductive and fatuous.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Joe

    Heh! I say this in all kindness, Sassy, but you’re dead wrong.

    Gee, I used to walk around calling myself a “choosy beggar!” It was a plaintive cry to the wind and to anyone who would put up with me that “wwwwaaaaaaa! – I’m not haaaappppyyyyy!” (See? Men do it too.)

    I was always amazed by the denizens of the long-dead usenet who’d complain that they could never find a good man in one breath, and then say with the next that “Yup. I need to raise my standards and be choosier about who I go out with!” Choosy beggars are a dime a dozen.

    What you really mean to say is that even beggars can be choosy, but they’re going to be frustrated and unhappy – right? It’s harder to realize that frustration and unhappiness are emotions that come from within, not from without, like a cute guy who asks you out on a date or a cute girl who smiles at you.

    It takes some time to learn that frustration and unhappiness are not things you can avoid like a pile of dog excrement on the pavement. They are just states of mind.

    People with a low SMV can be picky. Sometimes they’re just more careful with the things they’re picky about.

    I’m not wrong necessarily. I think that you have come at this from a very different standpoint.

    When I say that beggars can’t be choosers, I mean that people in positions that do not afford them the power of choice accept whatever they are given. Whenever a homeless person approaches someone on the street for money, do you think that they ask for $100? $1,000? No, they don’t. Doing so would get them nowhere. They aren’t in a position of power to demand, or even get, what they want. Instead, they simply ask for money, any amount of money. Often they ask for spare change, or maybe a few dollars. They do that because they know that the people with money to give away (the people in power) have the upper hand. The people with money are more willing to part with mere change, but I highly doubt that they would ever agree to the demands of beggars for large sums of money. Why would they have to? They have the power, and they can give the beggars crumbs without so much as a second thought.

    The same goes for people with lower SMV. They may try to demand the world from romantic partners, or be very picky, but they won’t get very far. An ugly man would be stupid to holdout for a beauty queen. An ugly woman would be stupid to holdout for an Adonis. The odds of them getting such people is quite low. It may be mean to say, but it’s the truth.

    They don’t have much power to demand more, and actually have their requests fulfilled. They would be much better served to either improve themselves to a point that they acquire more power (and thereby use the power to demand more realistically) or they lower their standards to an acceptable level. Instead of going for Adonises and beauty queens, they accept equally low SMV counterparts.

    As I said before, desperation will make people accept what they can get. The beggar may not be able to get $100 from a person on the street, but they’ll make due with a few dollars. The low SMV individual may not be able to get someone that they would ideally want, but they’ll make due with a comparable individual who is willing to accept them as they are.

  • Sassy6519

    The scientists asked women between the ages of 18 and 48 a series of questions. They broke down the vocalizations into categories that included “silence,” “moan/groan,” “scream/shriek/squeal,” “words” (such as “Yes!” or the partner’s name, and “instructional commands” like “more.” Other questions asked why the women made the vocalizations and at what point they themselves had an orgasm, if they had an orgasm at all, and, if not, why they were doing all that shouting.

    Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.

    In other words, the sounds the women emitted were not because they were out-of-control excited. Indeed, when they were most excited, say during oral sex when they were more likely to have an orgasm, they didn’t do much of the old scream-n-shout.

    Rather, it was a tactic they used to induce their man to do something, like get it over with. In most cases, they were also trying to be nice. “Importantly, 92 percent of participants felt very strongly that these vocalizations boosted their partner’s self-esteem,” the paper stated, “and 87 percent reported using them for this purpose,” like the hilarious scene from the 1975 movie “The Stepford Wives”: “You’re the king, Frank!

    Sometimes, a woman has to do what a woman has to do.

    I don’t fake orgasms often, but I definitely give an Oscar worthy performance when I do.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff
  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    That’s awesome!

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Notwithstanding PJ’s superficial preening, there is a real lesson to be taken from the Brazilian example. When there are more sexually attractive women to chose from, it becomes more practical to exclude those who exhibit bad behaviour. The same problem exists on the other side of the aisle, with the lament of, “where have all the good men gone?”

    The problem in the States is we’re all engaged in a race to the bottom. Everything’s a war or a competition. Winning against a lover is so contrary to what’s really desirable…

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    The SO is indeed rather quiet when she is “stimulated,” except for maybe a grunt or two.

    The vocalizations are clearly for theatrical effect, and that was clear almost immediately.

    That said, the vocalizations are a lot of fun, because they can be part of the full sexual experience. Defintiely do turn me on. I don’t feel offended by them or inadequate :)

    She doesn’t get a huge O every time…I think she’s still satisified, overall, except that she’s like, 4 hours away…

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    I can assure you that “almost all” women do not find their first sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory. Quite the opposite, especially if it is in the context of a relationship.

    Trolling? That’s quite an accusation. I was simply to referring to a woman’s hymen being broken, which is typically not reported as a fantastic experience. But hey, if there is a huge population of women out there having awesome orgasmic sex the first time their hymen is broken, I stand corrected. Lol.

    My general point was that sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides, which means people can’t loosen up and enjoy the moment. This was true long before the “hooking up” culture ever existed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @IP

      Not having orgasmic sex /= regret and dissatisfaction.

      I also had many enjoyable sexual encounters before I ever had intercourse.

      sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides, which means people can’t loosen up and enjoy the moment. This was true long before the “hooking up” culture ever existed.

      The Sexual Revolution actually put a lot more pressure on people to have different kinds of sex. Casual, group, adulterous, etc. The divorce rate soared. The feminist script that says sex is empowering pressures women to have sex in a way that feels agentic and controlling in order to feel powerful. This interferes with pleasure and completely disregards the needs of the other person.

      Finally, men and women seek different things from sex. Men generally require less emotional intimacy than women do to enjoy sex. Many of the “bizarre expectations” occur because people have lost sight of gender differences. Women project emotional investment onto men when there is none, as highlighted in the post. Meanwhile, men project lack of emotional investment onto women when in fact they are hoping for a relationship – again, see the post.

  • Ted D

    IP – “My general point was that sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides,”

    I agree with this 100%. As to when and what is to blame, I think it is a cumulative effect largely brought mainstream by the sexual revolution and given a huge steroid shot by feminism. I tend to lay most of the blame on feminism for our current state, but I have no doubt there were many contributing factors going much further into history.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Whoops, I see Ted beat me to it in replying to IP.

  • L.K.

    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtU3m2M1Ivs

  • lovelost

    Next Generation of Uber-Beta Guys will have dating training. MIT certified. no kidding,

    check this out
    http://studentlife.mit.edu/sao/charm/schedule/workshops

  • lovelost

    “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls.”

    LOL LOL

  • lovelost

    Susan you’re in Boston, you may want to reach out to the MIT Charm school and give a talk about dating and current SMP.

  • lovelost

    my humble suggestion. :)

  • ExNewYorker

    “Next Generation of Uber-Beta Guys will have dating training. MIT certified. no kidding,”

    *Laugh*, sounds like an IAP thing. Back in our day, we didn’t have this type of thing as an option. Though to be honest, I don’t see this helping much…

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    Ted–feminism certainly bears some of the blame (depending on how exactly one defines “feminism”). Part of it is also the uncertain and hesitant nature of modern masculinity, separate and apart from feminism’s effect on men.

    But America is a land of contradictions. We have extremes on both sides of the spectrum, from the puritanical to the decadent. These contradictory forces often produce confusion and inner conflict for young people. Imagine a young person growing up watching sexed-up rap videos and the glitz of Hollywood, whilst hearing the scolding message of his evangelical pastor. You don’t find this kind of sharp contradiction in other democracies for the most part.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    J #126

    So what you’re really saying is that I am a deadly winking sniggering snuggling fruit flavoured mincing ice-covered heap of mother love …

    but so circumspect …

    I like it.

  • L.K.

    “Because women do not ejaculate”

    Yes we do.

    “Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.”

    Doesn’t make any sense. Why not just tell him to hurry up and finish?
    That way he’ll have “gotten his” and for the second round you can slow it down and teach him what it takes to make you orgasm? That way both will be satisfied.

    “So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.”

    I’m pretty sure all women are orgasmic. That’s how the human body is designed, or evolved. Now, some or even many women may not be orgasmic WITH a partner, but by ourselves we are. Its easy to bring one’s own self to orgasm because you know exactly what to touch, when and how, and know the precise rhythmic patterns required to specifically get you off. There is a learning curve however for every partner.

    “For example, women in porn scream a lot, saying, “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls. Women have told me that their boyfriends shared disappointment that they weren’t more vocal during sex. Young guys are also often astounded to learn that many women don’t beg for anal. I even know one couple where after months of his pulling out to ejaculate on her face, she complained, and he was astounded to learn that wasn’t the typical female preference!”

    This is disgusting, but even moreso, very sad. I’m willing to bet that before internet porn people were having better and more satisfying sex.

    “I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done).”

    Me too. But every successive one is weaker.
    And the most intense ones were experienced as a teen and early 20s something.

    “Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.”

    I have no psychological barriers to orgasming. I want to with my partner very much so.

    “But men are a huge part of the equation and if they became better lovers they could certainly help their partner a huge amount.”

    He’s not doing his part.

    Part of the problem is that I am vocal but he misinterprets my vocals as being orgasm. They are moan from feeling good, but they are not from orgasm. Because he is convinced I have and do orgasm because of the vocals and also other forms of body language, he does not believe me when I try to explain that I have not orgasmed and he needs to explore this, that or the other thing in order for that to happen.

    He always asks, “did he feel good.” I of course tell him it felt good, great even, because it did. But it still wasn’t orgasm. I have now realized I have to start lying and saying “no it didn’t feel good” so as to maybe to get him to work toward giving me an orgasm.

    I’m wondering if its common for men to confuse vocals and other body language of enjoyment with orgasm?

  • L.K.

    “Susan – its easy to fix that need for faking: just tell your mate you aren’t interested in an orgasm and just want him to enjoy himself. ”

    But I am interested in an orgasm!

    The most frustrating thing is that I know that I am highly orgasmic when I masturbate, I always figured sex with a partner would be even more orgasmic. I can certainly understand women who become deeply bonded to their partners after orgasm. I’v always felt like I was bathing in bliss and love after masturbatory orgasms, almost as if another person I deeply loved was with me. I imagine that the man who can produce those feelings with his body in the body of a woman can make her go CRAZY for him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sadly, 5-10% of women never have an orgasm under any circumstances. See? Even women don’t know the facts.

      Why Can’t Some Women Orgasm? Neuroscience Might Finally Have an Answer

      It is estimated that one in four women in the US has had difficulty achieving orgasm in the past year, while between 5 and 10 per cent of women are anorgasmic – unable to achieve orgasm at all. But without precise data to explain what happens during this experience, there are few treatment options available for women who might want help.

      Five to 10 percent of women cannot orgasm, and nobody really knows why. In fact, scientists hardly know anything at all about the mechanisms behind how people climax. But researchers may have discovered a link between brain function and sexual gratification that might explain the phenomenon. By using an fMRI to track the brain activity of women pleasuring themselves, scientists at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands have drawn a connection between orgasms and the part of the brain known as the left orbitofrontal cortex (OFC), which suggests that women who tend to have trouble letting go when it comes to other areas of their lives might also have trouble in the bedroom

      Some other interesting info:

      http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/sex-study-female-orgasm-eludes-majority-women/story?id=8485289&page=2

      Elisabeth Lloyd, a professor of history, philosophical science and biology at the Indiana University.

      Lloyd’s study of 80 years of previous sex research in her 2005 book, “The Case of the Female Orgasm,” debunked theories that there is an evolutionary reason for the female orgasm.

      She determined the female orgasm is merely a byproduct of the male orgasm, as both sexes share the same genital nerve tissue in the fetal stage.

      “It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.

      Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”

      Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary

      “It’s clear the male orgasm is strongly selected and it makes sense,” said Wallen. “If they don’t reach orgasm, they don’t leave offspring.”

      To look at the question in reverse, women have a strong evolutionary selection for nipples — without them their babies would die, according to Wallen. However, nipples serve no biological purpose in men.

      In analysis of the Bonaparte data, the researchers first had to reframe the question. Instead of asking, “Do you have orgasm during intercourse?” they created a “more explicit survey” asking if manual or oral stimulation had been involved.

      After analyzing data from 100 female volunteers, ranging from 18 to 60, they found about 11 percent said they always have orgasm during intercourse and the same number said they never climaxed.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        And LK is Plain Jane.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “As I said before, desperation will make people accept what they can get. The beggar may not be able to get $100 from a person on the street, but they’ll make due with a few dollars. ”

    You analogy is just stupid.

    The people in power don’t give out their resources in the SMP the same way they do change.

    Hot men don’t give tidbits of commitment to fat chicks and hot women don’t give a tidbit of sex to the ugly man. (Hot men can give a tidbit of sex obvs.)

    In which case, they are not even playing the same game. The amount of power the hot person has is proportional to how delusional the ugly person is.

  • Bells

    A lot of women can do fine by themselves but have trouble with someone else. I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done), but still can’t get anywhere with a guy during the act itself.

    5 in an hour? Wow, I really have to practice some more!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    You analogy is just stupid.

    I think a lot of the things that you’ve said on here have been stupid. I don’t call you out on it because I don’t want to spend my time starting online pissing contests. I think it is a very fitting analogy. Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant and inconsequential. I’m feeling particularly bitchy today, so this should be good. I like you enough as a commentor to not want to have you on my bad side. I assume the feeling is mutual. If that is the case, I’d suggest that you start your rebuttals without calling my arguments stupid. Thanks.

    The people in power don’t give out their resources in the SMP the same way they do change.

    Hot men don’t give tidbits of commitment to fat chicks and hot women don’t give a tidbit of sex to the ugly man. (Hot men can give a tidbit of sex obvs.)

    In which case, they are not even playing the same game. The amount of power the hot person has is proportional to how delusional the ugly person is.

    Agreeing to spend the night with someone is a small bit of commitment. FWB relationships are also small bits of commitment. If not, why would women enter into them at all? Those relationships have just enough semblances of a “commitment” to keep the women coming back for more. If they never asked for more, I’m sure that FWB relationships would be more common than they are.

    Women give small physical/sexual tidbits to their male friends that are stuck in the “friendzone”. I’ve heard more than my fair share of men stuck in the friendzone, pining away for a woman. What do the women do to get these guys’ hopes up? They flirt with them in a sexual fashion, then turn around and say that they only see them as friends. They cuddle with these guys in bed after a bad breakup with their “asshole” boyfriends, and then wonder why the guy friends want to bang them. It’s just enough sexual tension and physical touch to keep the men in the friendzone on the hook.

    If you don’t think that some people, both men and women, who hold power in the SMP give crumbs to the beggars, I don’t know what to tell you. I see such dynamics around me all the time.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    So no one want to be the first? Ok I will.
    HAPPY WOMEN’S DAY! :)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Some small updates from this week:
    -My good friend has been online dating for a while. He’s been persistent, but he’s pretty beta about things and gets friend-zoned PDQ.

    He has now gotten friend-zoned UBER hardcore by a fiery redhead, who is now asking him whether or not she should have sex with her brand new boyfriend (picked over him, of course).

    He keeps coming back for more.

    Ugh. Dumb. Playing fast and loose with his emotions. At 25 he should know better.

    We went out last night…he is still uncomfortable around women. His voice rises several octaves, he gets loud, and he starts acting little TOO frat-boyish…he basically rehashed MY entire romantic history in front of an entire bar at 110 decibels last night. Oy.

    -At lunch, a new girl at work decided to sit with us (group of 20-something males). Recent college grad and a rather artsy girl. Easy to talk to, relatively smart. I am rather impressed by her forward-ness and ease of integration into our group. Probably single as she hasn’t mentioned a boyfriend yet. So far, wish we had a million more like her.

    -My co-worker has introduced me to an interesting archtype…a guy with some natural game who does not approach at all, ever, because he is afraid of being creepy. He is gruff, tons of facial hair, and seems to attract the crazy based on the stories of his previous GF. With this particular girl, he was OBVIOUSLY interested, but not phased by her presence and gave her a lot of mild teasing, while not making her the focus of any conversation.
    Good, good initial presentation, but….

    -We were also discussing approaching this week. My friends and coworkers have, combined, approached…zero girls that I know of, in the last 2 years. They are TERRIFIED of awkwardness and creepiness. Even this dude, who girls seem to actually like, is terrified as coming across as creepy.

    They came up with one situation where I approached a girl (part of my “one approach every day” challenge) and said I made her feel uncomfortable. This is ridiculous, because she was laughing and liked the flower I plucked for her. Also, they weren’t even THERE, but they sure do like the idea that all girls are intimidated by all guys (except for the sexy ones).

    -We were discussing this again later with another single girl in my car, and even after we explained this to her, and how she NEEDED to be more proactive and more flirty, she was absolutely shocked. She was under the impression that she should only play hard to get, and that one of her male friends told her this is what she had to do because other guys called her slutty behind her back.
    I told her she should stop hanging out with guys that go to clubs and do nothing but drink, and perhaps she would run less often into guys that think this way.
    This has not yet processed, I believe…

    -This giant mess of a social group is going out again, tonight. One of the girls in our group is very excited to see our “Game.” It seems that many, many girls are dangerously intrigued by the subject, are superficially aware, and want to see it in practice.

    We’ll see how tonight goes!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And men’s day is in November 19 I plan to congratulate the XY that day as well. Surely will get in trouble in facebook but it will be interesting to say something.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Further conclusions on (still immature) social group

    -Men reallllllyyyyy need to stop getting excited by the sexuality portion. I remember two girls coming with us, one very nice and moderately attractive, one that was basically a stripper. They all chased stripper girl.
    First girl is now happy in a relationship with a nice Greater Beta in our group. She is attractive, so there is no SMV differential.
    Stripper girl has had bisexual experiences, got a boob job, is dating an abusive boyfriend, and is extremely depressed and longing for attention.

    -Women reaaalllllyyyyy need to learn how to socialize. For all this talk about your social skills, the women I run into are absolutely incapable of carrying on normal conversation. And no, my guy friends do not just talk about sports. The girls all inevitably check out and play on smart phones, unless given a huge dopamine boost, which comes from…

    -Being a “dick.” This whole cocky-funny, teasing thing is something I can do, but it STILL strikes me as being a dick. Rather taxing, but Game is going to be the best way to navigate your life.

    -Hard to get is extremely dumb. I cannot emphasize this enough.

    -Sexual zoning and sexual harassment fear has been absolutely catastrophic for many guys and needs to be done away with.

    Of course, all stuff we already know…

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Men reallllllyyyyy need to stop getting excited by the sexuality portion. I remember two girls coming with us, one very nice and moderately attractive, one that was basically a stripper. They all chased stripper girl.

    I’m not surprised.

  • mr. wavevector

    The truth is, the ability to orgasm and frequency of orgasm varies highly among women. 80% do not come from intercourse alone. The lower oral sex numbers don’t look so promising for those women.

    But the response to oral sex varies highly among women too. A surprising number of women don’t like receiving it, and refuse it when offered. Some find it unexciting, some are too sensitive, some are anxious about their looks/smell/taste, and some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    What makes women orgasm also varies highly. Some need oral, some prefer a finger-bang, some want a vibrator, some want to be on top. Some women never orgasm but still want sex all the time. And some orgasm so easily they come after 3 minutes of good old missionary PIV. Many need to be comfortable with the relationship before they can enjoy it.

    A lot of women also don’t realize how varied other women are, so they think what works for them is “what women want” – but it’s not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wavevector

      A lot of women also don’t realize how varied other women are, so they think what works for them is “what women want” – but it’s not.

      You’re so right. Of course it’s true that not all women like oral sex. I will say that it generally gets a big thumbs up in my focus groups, though. And there’s always grumbling about men who won’t go down – I’d estimate at least a quarter to a third of men say no way, at least when young. The self-consciousness is probably the thing I hear most about from women who don’t want it.

      But there have been a wide range of preferences mentioned by women here over time – definitely NOT one size fits all.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Sassy

    I’m not surprised.

    Neither am I.
    However, they are all absolutely excited over the new girl at our work as well, and she does not give me the “trouble” sense.
    She seems accessible and interesting and the guys don’t get a lot of female attention, so they like her. They treat receptive females like Gold.
    And since they aren’t in college anymore, they REALLY don’t run into a lot of females.
    Like my one friend who got into online dating when he saw his buddy succeed, or my other friend that keeps bashing his head, if men think they can win, they will compete.
    They do not compete for modern women at all because they are unreceptive, rude, and dismissive, and they fear social shame for being “creepy.”
    Yes, they will respond more aggressively to overt sexual displays, but most men do not encounter women who are routinely sexually displaying to them (at least after college-years). If you routinely run into these men, pick a different target market.
    I do believe that restricted girls who display some interest and can carry on a conversation and make effort to meet men will do well in this market.
    For instance, my friend who ROUTINELY gets friend-zoned by online daters? His sister online dated extensively and quite easily got more boyfriends in a year than I can even remember. She is physically disabled, and not super attractive, and neither are her boyfriends, but she is EXCEEDINGLY pleasant and made finding a man her priority.
    Some of the men aren’t exactly low status either…she did meet Mitt Romney, after all…
    Obviously, you prefer only the sexiest of men, so you can’t do this, but, hey, we can’t have everything :P

  • L.K.

    ” I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend”

    Excuse me? How is letting your 16 year old daughter’s boyfriend sex her right under your own nose in your own house any where near “sexually conservative”? Not only is it extremely permissive, its completely weird and creepy.

    “but they don’t really do the casual sex thing.”

    What would you call the above?

    “Even if they don’t marry, they live in monogamous relationships that last longer than many American marriages.”

    And how do they get there? Their very first partner which they had sex with at 16 Ior sooner) with mommy and daddy’s gleeful permission in the next bedroom over turns into a monogamous relationship that lasts longer than many American marriages?

  • L.K.

    Susan, they are talking about WITH A PARTNER, not via masturbation;

    “It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.

    Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    For instance, my friend who ROUTINELY gets friend-zoned by online daters? His sister online dated extensively and quite easily got more boyfriends in a year than I can even remember. She is physically disabled, and not super attractive, and neither are her boyfriends, but she is EXCEEDINGLY pleasant and made finding a man her priority.
    Some of the men aren’t exactly low status either…she did meet Mitt Romney, after all…
    Obviously, you prefer only the sexiest of men, so you can’t do this, but, hey, we can’t have everything :P

    Online dating is definitely a crapshoot. I used to have online dating profiles, but I deleted both of them. I didn’t find what I was looking for, and I wanted to take a break.

    I’m not really interested in dating anyone at the moment. I started taking my pottery class this past week, and it was really fun. I made my first vase, and working on a potter’s wheel was very interesting. At this point, I’d rather focus my attention on keybowls instead of men.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t blame you, Sassy, Dating is exhausting.

    On the other hand, I fucking hate pottery. Took that class freshman year of high school and every day came out of there with a ton of crap on my pants.

    Plus…no talent ;) Let’s see if I can post a picture of what I made…

  • L.K.

    ” I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend”

    Susan, as a mother with the European model in mind, which would you prefer – your 16 year old daughter bringing her boyfriend home to stay the weekend and having sex with him in the bedroom just across from yours, OR her having a few casual but safe-sex flings in her 20s?

  • Jesse

    5 in an hour? Wow, I really have to practice some more!

    I need a study buddy. You down? Let’s meet at the library at 8.

  • Esau

    ADBG They are TERRIFIED of awkwardness and creepiness. Even this dude, who girls seem to actually like, is terrified as coming across as creepy.

    Hmm, wonder how that might have come about; something in their past experiences, perhaps?

    Never too soon to revisit the classics: http://xkcd.com/642/

  • Esau

    lovelost: Susan you’re in Boston, you may want to reach out to the MIT Charm school and give a talk about dating and current SMP.

    Now that, I would pay money to see, just for the entertainment.

  • lovelost

    Now that, I would pay money to see, just for the entertainment.

    a streaming feed would be helpful for those who wants to joins from home.

    oops, working from home is banned these days. no pun intended :)

  • Test Ease

    The problem with that Brazil documentary is all the men think they deserve special treatment simply because they possess testicles.

  • OffTheCuff

    Mr. wave, excellent summary.

    There’s a healthy level of noise that I think is necessary. Yeah, porn-level theatrics where you’re actually saying goofy phrases like “fuck me harder!” are obviously wrong, but there should be grunting and groaning and sound.

    But, silence is worse. I’d rather someone say too much than too little.

    Sadly, due to my conservative upbringing, I always kept silent as possible, not because I didn’t like it, but making noise felt wrong and abusive and too, dare I say, macho. Once I got over that, it allowed us to read each other much better, and my wife became more comfortable making noise herself. Which allowed me to read her better, and form a feedback loop.

    Silence and holding back, is bad. Saying stupid phrases is also bad, because if you can form words more any more complicated than a syllable or two, you are doing it wrong.

    Deep breaths. Helps to be a vocalist or wind player. Guitarists suck!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Summary from tonight:
    If this social group were an army, it’d be the Italian army

  • Ted D

    “Deep breaths. Helps to be a vocalist or wind player. Guitarists suck”

    I’m a singer and guitar player. I’m good with my mouth and my fingers. :-)

    And that’s why I get no complaints from the wimmenz!

  • Iggles

    @ mr. wavevector:

    But the response to oral sex varies highly among women too. A surprising number of women don’t like receiving it, and refuse it when offered. Some find it unexciting, some are too sensitive, some are anxious about their looks/smell/taste, and some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    Well, that’s a simple fix. Either try a position where you take higher ground or 69! :lol:

    @ ADBG,
    Great post at #153. Sounds like both sexes in your social group have some growing up to do. I’m also a millennial, so sadly I do see a number of people making the same mistakes! Especially this:

    And no, my guy friends do not just talk about sports. The girls all inevitably check out and play on smart phones

    It drives me nuts how attached people are to their smart phones when hanging out as group somewhere! They’ve got to take pictures and “check in” on Facebook. It’s annoying! So many men and women our age do this, but I agree with you it’s a majority female thing. I make a conscious effort NOT to check my phone because I want to be in the moment and enjoy spending time with my friends! We don’t get together as much as we used to, so it’s even more important for me to do so.

    @ SW:

    In analysis of the Bonaparte data, the researchers first had to reframe the question. Instead of asking, “Do you have orgasm during intercourse?” they created a “more explicit survey” asking if manual or oral stimulation had been involved.

    I’d like to know the findings of that study. I’m thinking in a lot of those cases additional stimulation was used.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Iggles,

    Well, that’s a simple fix. Either try a position where you take higher ground or 69!

    Indeed! But I think her comment was more about the psychology than the physics of the act.

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    Summary from tonight:
    If this social group were an army, it’d be the Italian army

    At least it isn’t the French army…

  • MaMu1977
  • A Definite Beta Guy

    INTJ,

    The French army is superior to the Italian army and always has been. The Italian military is quite possibly the worst in Europe since…I don’t know, 1400 at the very least!

    A little update on “creepiness”:
    The men-folk are very much justified in their fear of creepiness. The female social circles, at least the ones I run in, like to gush to other people in their social group about how they were hit on and how creepy the guys are.

    This is an extremely popular topic whenever going to one of the “active” sexual zones.

    My impression is that under-30s are indeed a pathetic conversational lot. I am constantly reminded of “ice-breaker” activities we had to do to get college freshman to talk to each other. A fun game to give a big dopamine boost, so we could get to actual social bonding.

    Factor in a ton of posturing to show how “cool” you are, and you get mid and late 20 somethings.

    The best conversational partner in the group is the natural-alpha-afraid-to-be-creepy guy, who thinks EVERYTHING is cool. Other than that, ugh…

    Gen Y socialization is burning me out VERY quickly. Or perhaps quality time with my GF has spoiled me, but things are never this bad talking to actual adults (grocery stores, restaraunts, etc.) They seem at least moderately interested in actual people and enjoy conversing with them for short bursts, and are not 100% concerned about asserting more “awesomeness.”

    Or maybe they don’t do it to me because I am 26.

    I don’t know.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Re: Creep, is not a label applied solely to men.
    Yesterday I relayed the story of a girl who is new to our company and sat down with our social group during lunch.

    Another girl in our social group met her, by which I mean stood near her for 30 seconds and didn’t even introduce herself, and pronounced the new girl as “weird” last night.

    This is also the girl who was casually dismissed by the other guys when stripper-girl was running through the bar.

    I swear, my generation simply does not know how to treat other people with civility.

  • SayWhaat

    ADBG, where do you live again?

  • http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/ MarkyMark

    If women hated hooking up so much, they wouldn’t be doing in EN MASSE now, would they? They’re doing it en masse because they LIKE it! It’s as simple as that…

  • Jason

    Anacaona.

    HAPPY WOMEN’S DAY!

    You know a happy woman? I guess we should dedicate a day to her.

    Couldn’t resist.

  • HanSolo

    @MarkyMark

    Some like it, yes. But a lot do it out of peer pressure (from their female friends and local alpha mares and the guys they may be trying to get a relationship with) and the message from the feminist and pop-culture alpha mares.

    The underlying force of greater economic power, birth control and relative safety totally empower the more promiscuous women to pursue that path. That in and of itself lowers the overall price of casual sex and puts pressure on the more middle and restricted side of the spectrum.

    On top of that the cultural message that women should revel in their sexual power (pop culture) and that they should fuck like men (feminists) and that they should delay marriage (resulting in a few more ONSs, flings, STRs and even LTRs) all contribute to varying degrees.

    The feminization, intimidation (see ADBG’s field report above) and wimpification of a lot of men also contributes. Porn likely moves the male spectrum a bit to the promiscuous side (though it saps some men of any drive to approach). Seeing those players and alphas succeed with indifference or douchiness (NAplayers/alphasALT) has some impact as well in showing what kind of behavior is rewarded.

    Most men follow what they perceive to be demanded from women and I think that women are a bit more concerned with being in tune with what their circle of friends “demands” and what that part of society they look up to says is the right kind of behavior so I think that shifting the needle with women (aka, changing the herd’s expectations) is where you’ll get the highest return on investment. Getting enough women (and men to a lesser degree) to say that relationships are good and that they won’t have sex outside of them (and live up to that) can be a first step so that it creates another respected narrative (not just some old prude that isn’t “cool”) that girls can buy into and use to shore up their own restricted desires.

    Denouncing extreme feminism and raunch culture can also start to work. Putting off the bitchy posturing and nuclear rejections (or even TNT-level rejections) that intimidate a lot of men and actually looking for relationships will start sending the market signal to men that it is again safe and “profitable” to approach women for non-hookup relationships and less “profitable” for casual.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “A little update on “creepiness”:
    The men-folk are very much justified in their fear of creepiness. The female social circles, at least the ones I run in, like to gush to other people in their social group about how they were hit on and how creepy the guys are. ”

    Now THAT is weird. Gushing about creeps hitting on them? I put it out of my mind and pretend it never happened. I’d never tell anyone else about it because its tantamount to wearing a sign that says “I can only attract creeps.”

    “If women hated hooking up so much, they wouldn’t be doing in EN MASSE now, would they? They’re doing it en masse because they LIKE it! It’s as simple as that…”

    I agree. There’s a pay off in there somewhere for them even if it doesn’t include orgasms.

  • Bells

    Another girl in our social group met her, by which I mean stood near her for 30 seconds and didn’t even introduce herself, and pronounced the new girl as “weird” last night.

    This is also the girl who was casually dismissed by the other guys when stripper-girl was running through the bar.

    I swear, my generation simply does not know how to treat other people with civility.

    Maybe one girl(or both of them) already checked out each other and decided that they didn’t like them. You never know, women can be a bit catty at times.

  • Mulholland Drive

    By the way, there’s a move by men to reclaim the creep word, just as feminists have reclaimed “slut”.

    Own it!

  • HanSolo

    @M.D.

    New Justin Timberlake song out: “I’m bringing creepy back…get your creepy on….” :)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bells

    If my grandmother can tolerate her ex-husband, then this child of prosperity and privilege can introduce herself to one of our work friends and be civil towards her.

    Women who choose to be this “catty” are actually “bitchy.” Actually, I have another C-word in mind, but I am not sure Susan would like it ;)

    I have a tolerance for character defects in other people, I have little patience for people who revel in them, however.

  • Jesse

    some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    My feelings on female genitalia are somewhat parallel. I’m completely unaroused at the thought of kneeling before a woman and licking her, but if I can bend her over, hold her down and hold her legs together (or force them open) then all of a sudden her genitalia look much more enticing. When I used to watch porn I found that vaginas just didn’t look visually appealing when the woman was in control, but they looked much better when she wasn’t.

    Of course if she’s my woman I want to lick her, smell her and taste her, and I want to make her whimper and moan, but not in a subservient way. If it feels like I’m servicing her then I don’t like it.

    I once tried to read that Ian Kerner book about cunnilingus but he seemed to completely miss the point of dominance and submission so it didn’t seem very useful to me. For some folks it’s impossible to separate physical pleasure from control during sex.

  • Jesse

    I should add that his book certainly has useful information in terms of female anatomy but perhaps little in the way of body positions and setup.

  • Esau

    MaMu1977 at 176:

    RE: XKCD and “Creepy”

    http://kateharding.net/2009/10/05/would-it-kill-you-to-be-civil/

    Yeech! What a horrid, hateful, vomitous piece of writing. Are you a regular reader of Kate Harding, for better or for worse? If this piece is at all typical, then she seems like everything that is wrong with feminism, a shrieking, vicious, contemptible man-hating harridan — but I’ll stick to polite language in deference to Susan.

    HanSolo at 182: “Denouncing extreme feminism … can also start to work.”

    Can we start with Kate Harding? Not that the feminist brigade can be influenced one iota by you or me. But I am disappointed that non-crazy female authority figures — like Susan — will readily call out feminists for their damaging advice to women, but not so much for their blatant and equally damaging misandry.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      But I am disappointed that non-crazy female authority figures — like Susan — will readily call out feminists for their damaging advice to women, but not so much for their blatant and equally damaging misandry.

      I did write a post specifically criticizing the misandry of Nice Guy TM. It’s here:

      Marcotte’s Boxers Are In a Twist Over Nice Guys®

      The other form of misandry I’ve written about several times is that in our educational system.

      Unfortunately, I find that if I do too much of it I get a sort of backlash in the “no good deed goes unpunished” genre. I wrote a post in praise of fathers last Father’s Day and it turned into a really ugly and angry thread, thanks to some rather extreme MRAs who showed up.

      But I’m open to writing about anything you think especially worthwhile.

      I agree that Kate Harding’s piece is disgusting.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Don’t be too angry at Kate…she is just seeing the world through her lens and has somewhat of a point…just too hostile to men and doesn’t want to understand their view point, only focused on her own pain.

    I like women a lot. Sometimes us men-folk don’t always treat them nice. My mom gets underpaid at work, knows because she handles the payroll. Sister gets cat-called on occasion. GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.

    Apparently, you can learn a lot from women by listening to them.

    It’s especially good when there are no feminists involved in the conversation! Bwahahahahahahahaha.

  • Mulholland Drive

    This “The Nice Guy TM blames on feminism what is really the fault of sexism, thus imagining himself the True Victim of both.” is true.

  • Mulholland Drive

    ” My mom gets underpaid at work, knows because she handles the payroll.”

    She can ask for a raise.

    “GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.”

    Blowing up at her for not reciprocating his feelings? Those things can’t be forced or faked, and he wouldn’t want them to be anyway. Then he’d blow up at her for faking.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That is not pertinent to the fact that women do face their own issues in this world that men do not face, and men would do well to listen to their issues.

    The problem comes in when you have people that flip out over a comic strip or want to have a one-way conversation, IE, a lecture. This is what a lot of feminists are really about: a one-way “correction” of society’s injustices.

    Anyone who wants to bash Nice Guys is straight-up pathetic and loses all credibility, in my eyes.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG and Esau

    Reading the first part of that and I don’t like how she’s saying nerdy guys are perpetuating rape culture. Maybe I’ll find something redeeming later on.

    Esau, I think Susan does speak up against many cases of misandry, like her recent post on how boys are discriminated against in the education system.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “The point is, ADBG, some claiming “nice guy” status are anything but.”

    No one gives a shit about “some.” These anti-nice guy tirades make ALL nice guys look like woman-raping commu-Nazis.

  • Mulholland Drive

    Disagree. There’s “nice guy” and then “Nice Guy TM”. Harding references the trademarked demographic.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    I don’t see anything redeeming about that article. There are guys who go too far and don’t respect women by why not focus on them instead of some cartoon of a guy that just mentions the laptop or whatever to start a conversation. If you set the bar at women being the only ones who can let the man know when he can speak then you veer into the territory of the present day where too many good guys are afraid of being nuked and so they STFU. I think a healthier level would be where people can talk to each other and be civil but if the woman is not interested then she just doesn’t say all that much. She doesn’t need to be preemptively rude and the guy shouldn’t keep insisting if she’s not participating.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “I don’t see anything redeeming about that article. ”

    Its right here, “The Nice Guy TM blames on feminism what is really the fault of sexism, thus imagining himself the True Victim of both.”

    Men and Low Self Esteem
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfKGz1d29zU

  • Josie88

    @ Sassy

    I agree with your theory of beggars can’t be choosers but may I provide a pothole.

    So, I have this Uncle who is about 70 years old. His wife, My (bio) Aunt died about ten years ago, leaving him a widow. For whatever reasons, he never became accomplished, wealthy, nor educated.

    Long Story short, he hits on my 20-something friends, and wants to find true love with them.

    Unforunately, he has neither youth (72), wealth (lives on social security), intelligent (never got a BA), nor the personality (wants a submissive, traditional wife).

    I advise him to date women about 50+, but he finds them unattractive and wants a young girl to be his wife. Thus, he hits on my friends.

    At the same time, my attractive 55 year old friend that was rejected by my Uncle for being too old cannot afford to be a chooser. If she wants to be in a relationship, she must overlook my Uncle age (which she did!!!).

    In this situation, would you said that beggars can be choosers?

    Obvsiouly, a beggar can go asked for change in a more affluent, wealthy neighborhood. This was what happen when I was fundraising for a non-profit organization.

  • HanSolo

    Your uncle is delusional. He won’t find any young woman. He’s basically bidding for something he can’t afford so he can continue to put in a cheap bid (his value) for a waaaaaaaaaaay-out-of-his-league woman but no one will ever “sell” for that cheap.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Per usual, don’t have any strong disagreement with you Han. I just mean that guys do sometimes forget how damnably scared women can be, too, especially of generic “Creepiness.” Schrodinger’s Rapist may not be exactly real, but the women-folk have a lot to worry about.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “So, I have this Uncle who is about 70 years old. His wife, My (bio) Aunt died about ten years ago, leaving him a widow. For whatever reasons, he never became accomplished, wealthy, nor educated.

    Long Story short, he hits on my 20-something friends, and wants to find true love with them.”

    Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! This was the funniest thing I read all year!

    “At the same time, my attractive 55 year old friend that was rejected by my Uncle for being too old cannot afford to be a chooser. ”

    She sure as sugar can afford to be a chooser if she is only 55 and attractive!!! Her range is men 40-65. Your uncle is too old and feeble for her. I say this because a neighbor who is 56 with attractive looks but overweight (not morbidly obese but definitely plump) gets hit on regularly by men younger than her even though she is not a cougar. By virtue of the numbers of younger men who ask her out, she’s been dating a plethora of 40 somethings.

    “If she wants to be in a relationship, she must overlook my Uncle age (which she did!!!). ”

    She needs to forget about your old uncle and look for men in her own age range.

  • Bells

    @Josie88,
    Your uncle is just the typical pervy old man. There’s always a couple of those around. No big deal, most young girls should know how to successfully sidestep those. He’s got nothing to lose so that’s probably why he’s overly persistent.

  • Esau

    ADBG, interesting stable of reactions.

    Don’t be too angry at Kate…she is just seeing the world through her lens and has somewhat of a point…just too hostile to men and doesn’t want to understand their view point, only focused on her own pain.

    It sounds almost as though you know her personally. Tell me, do you think she would agree with your assessment of her? if not, then are you really defending her in practice? or insulting her even more profoundly?

    I like women a lot. Sometimes us men-folk don’t always treat them nice.

    Agreed, certainly. Loosely speaking I’d say that, even in a rich and peaceful country, maybe a third of the members of my sex are basically free-range assholes, and another third can swing that way at a moment’s provocation. YMMV, depending; but, unlike feminists, we are certainly not upholding the brief that “my sex are basically good by nature.”

    So, yes, men are available in a wide range of trimlines. Thing of it is, I’d have a lot more sympathy that “a lot of men treat women poorly” is an actual problem in the world, if it weren’t for the plain fact that so many women openly choose the men who treat them poorly over those who’d treat them well — in a sense, this is the very reason that HUS exists! So your remark, while correct, side-steps an essential point.

    GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.

    I can’t address the specific person you have in mind here, obviously. But to speak in general, this is a ridiculous and self-contradictory idea. The act of LJBFing is generally an act of contempt, and so is utterly incompatible with “trying to be nice” in any realistic, meaningful way. It’s possible that a woman committing the act feels that way subjectively, that she’s “trying to be nice”; but objectively the vastly more likely explanation is that she’s primarily trying to protect her own ego and self-image as not being a bad person and so not deserving of criticism.

    As I said, I don’t know this specific person’s history at all and so don’t make any claims about her. But as a general rule, I feel confident in asserting that the woman who says “I was just trying to be nice” while LJBFing has no understanding of what the word “nice” actually means.

    That is not pertinent to the fact that women do face their own issues in this world that men do not face, and men would do well to listen to their issues.

    Hmm. I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “listen” here: is it just in the sense of “observe”, or more along the lines of “believe” or “take seriously”? If the latter, then are you effectively endorsing the first few steps on the Way of the White Knight? (not that I’m condemning that, per se, just pointing it out)

    Anyone who wants to bash Nice Guys is straight-up pathetic and loses all credibility, in my eyes.

    So you think Kate Harding has no credibility, and yet we should still find value in her writing? Meanwhile, the eloquent Girl Writes What is in agreement with you here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

    I apologize for taking bandwidth on a somewhat off-original-topic tangent, but a lot of GWW is worth your time to watch; I imagine she and Susan would have a lot to talk about together.

    So, interesting.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    Yeah, I agree that there are some men who are offensive, rude, etc. But I just don’t see most nerds or nice guys falling into that category. It’s more the mentally ill on the subways or some portion of dark-players, thugs, etc. The nice guy is the least of a woman’s problems so why the constant hateful focus on them by the extreme-feminists? I mean, it’s such shit, men are supposed to keep their darker drives in check and so the nice guy is doing that and so then he gets shat on for doing that. Yeah, there may be some that act nicer than they truly are but what is the alternative? To act less civil and let out their darker nature? That’s really going to make the world better for women. What a load of shit. I’m not directing that at you, just at the fallacy of the whole argument against nice guys.

  • Esau

    Hansolo at 196: Esau, I think Susan does speak up against many cases of misandry, like her recent post on how boys are discriminated against in the education system.

    Of course, you’re right. I apologize, to the extent I implied that she never does so. But I do think there’s still some headroom available.

  • HanSolo

    @Bells

    I wouldn’t call him pervy–that gets into demonizing the fact that he’s attracted to those 20-something women. Nothing wrong with that. And if he’s acting inappropriately to them like touching them or whatever then I’d agree he’s pervy.

    I would simply say he’s unrealistic and being very hypergamous.

    A fool yes, a perv, no.

    @Josie

    Why is he around your friends so often anyway?

  • Mulholland Drive

    “So, yes, men are available in a wide range of trimlines. Thing of it is, I’d have a lot more sympathy that “a lot of men treat women poorly” is an actual problem in the world, if it weren’t for the plain fact that so many women openly choose the men who treat them poorly over those who’d treat them well ”

    Childhood programming. Repeating patterns.

    “But as a general rule, I feel confident in asserting that the woman who says “I was just trying to be nice” while LJBFing has no understanding of what the word “nice” actually means.”

    What does the word “nice” actually mean?

    What is a “nice” way of telling a man you are not romantically interested in him but you do value him as a friend?

  • HanSolo

    @Esau

    No problem. I agree that women in general could help out more by denouncing misandry and not playing the female victim card (especially the ones that say that they are victims of the male privilege that a lot of males would be quite surprised to know they hold–meaning they don’t hold it).

    However, I think that Susan is quite anti-misandry. Do you have any examples of issues where you don’t think she is sufficiently so? Off the top of my head I can remember her calling out the educational discrimination against boys, nuclear rejections by women, shaming of male sexuality.

  • HanSolo

    If she sincerely wants to be friends then she can say that she isn’t romantically attracted but would like to be friends. That simple. There’s a diff. btw LJBF and sincerely wanting friendship. I have quite a few female friends that are just that and we value our friendship. Some guys aren’t so into having friendships with females so if he gets shot down then he should just avoid the woman after that.

  • Esau

    Hansolo: However, I think that Susan is quite anti-misandry.

    Hmm, I’m not prepared to argue this either way at the moment; depends on your calibration of “quite”. But what I said above was not about misandry generally, but about misandry by feminists specifically. One could argue as to whether calling out feminists for misandry is a good use of her time and space; but I think there’s a good case for her doing more of it, that doing so would benefit the young women of her target audience.

    Meanwhile, referring to your question at 208, The nice guy is the least of a woman’s problems so why the constant hateful focus on them by the extreme-feminists?, the video I linked to at 207 answers it very directly, if you’re really interested and not just being rhetorical. I think she’s really an excellent speaker and worth watching, whether you concur or not.

  • Bells

    A visual definition of the word creep:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0

  • HanSolo

    I’ve seen some portions of her videos and liked what I saw. I think she should make some shorter videos of the 2-5 min length for punchier delivery of the main ideas and for people like me that get turned off by the 30 min typical length. I am interested and opened it so will watch when I come back from watching a movie.

    I do agree that calling out misandry by women that aren’t misandrists would be helpful to help drain the swamp in the minds of both men and women that men are intrinsically pervs, evil and the source of most of the ills in the world.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “If she sincerely wants to be friends then she can say that she isn’t romantically attracted but would like to be friends. That simple. There’s a diff. btw LJBF and sincerely wanting friendship. I have quite a few female friends that are just that and we value our friendship. Some guys aren’t so into having friendships with females so if he gets shot down then he should just avoid the woman after that.”

    Thanks for your input but I was asking Esau since he says “But as a general rule, I feel confident in asserting that the woman who says “I was just trying to be nice” while LJBFing has no understanding of what the word “nice” actually means.”

    “There’s a diff. btw LJBF and sincerely wanting friendship.”

    Oh good grief! Freakin’ splitting hairs.

  • HanSolo

    Not splitting hairs. LJBF is often used and interpreted as actually meaning let’s just be pleasant acquaintances that say hi on the street and no more, which is very different from a real friendship.

  • Jesse

    I suppose you’re just using my comment as a jumping-off point, Mulholland, but I have no interest in BSDM scenes and all the accoutrement.

  • Jesse

    Bells, your music sucks.

  • Jesse

    Sociological ramblings for Ana, if she hasn’t seen them before:

    http://www.vulture.com/2013/03/mila-kunis-jennifer-lawrence-are-americas-best-friend.html

  • Bells

    Ouch Jesse, it’s just a parody! They’re not real musicians, just (singing) comedians. You haven’t heard of Lonely Island before?

    Try another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Sociological ramblings for Ana, if she hasn’t seen them before
    Thank you. :)
    Interesting indeed.
    PS
    Do I need to say that PJ is trolling again? She doesn’t even try to hide it, spewing all the crap she can get away with before Susan bans her again.

  • Josie88

    @ Han

    I go to this University and they have a program for seniors, where anyone over 65 can take 2 class a semester under a discounted price.

    He often takes me out to lunch and comes over during weekends to tell me his stories. My friends would come over to hang out with me or run into me, and he would start talking to them.

    Did he touched them? No….but he does mistaken polite conversation as flirting and a willingness to be friends as dating…basically, he courts them old fashion style by calling them up and taking them to dinner, until they get the hints that he wants something more, and ends the friendship.

    I suspect that when he went to foreign countries, he probably been to brothels or bars with bar girls based on the stories he told me. Thus, I suspect that because he was able to get young 20-something bar girls in Thailand, that he can get them here too.

  • Josie88

    @angel guy

    Aren’t you concern about an accidentail pregnancy? It happens all the time, and extremely funny when one watch it on Maury or Jerry Springer….

    If you did get more sexually experience girl pregnant, that would take resources away from your future, restricted wife…

    Men may be the gatekeeper of commitment, but her choices can get him to commit for 18 years.

    @ Ted

    I really respect your choice to only have sex with women you care about…your choice to be selective would means there would be less single moms out there….this is assuming that you were responsible and would men up if you knocked up your girlfriend.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I thought Mila Kunis was cool back a few years ago when she played World of Warcraft and talked about it publicly. :P

  • Lokland

    @Bells

    “Your uncle is just the typical pervy old man. There’s always a couple of those around.”

    Two things,
    typical implies normal, therefore most old men are pervs?

    Other part is what HS said. Wanting hot, young and tight is not percy, its fairly normal. Not being aware he can’t afford it makes him delusional.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    On The Female Orgasm

    Basically, the orgasm, for whatever reason, tends to increase bondedness to the male in question. (As does sex in general, for women but orgasming more so.)
    An indirect bit of evidence for this is the (sometimes pathological) desire for men (especially betas) to ‘give’ their women orgasms. Seeing as they are focused on the LT as opposed to ST Cads it makes sense for them to want their women to have an orgasm.

    ——–

    Now, as Hope was mentioning earlier, a women who could have an orgasm with anybody has no need to settle down.

    I would disagree. Working of the premise that orgasm=increased bonding, it would make more sense that highly orgasmic women settle down earlier than those who do not and are less likely to cheat (note: does not mean a women who has trouble orgasming is a cheater).

    Those who do not orgasm easily or often are more likely to audition multiple males for the role of LT mate.

    This would coincide with the data which detect that women in relationships orgasm more frequently than those who have causal sex.

    Also those women not interested in LTM have no need to orgasm. Further supporting the data (hypothetically of douse).

    —————–

    Now I am sure there are many modulating factors involved as well.
    The attractiveness of the male, his commitment level, willingness to please her etc. which would alter the ability of the women to orgasm.

    —————–

    Susans Concerns

    “There are two other things I wonder about:

    1. Orgasm via masturbation also produces oxytocin.

    2. Oxytocin floods men as well after orgasm – not sure how this works with the finding that male attraction to the female decreases after his orgasm.”

    1. True. Is it possible that the object of said masturbation (not the tool but minds focus) is what the oxytocin increases bonding too? (Obviously I’m at a disadvantage here as I lack the bits to give it any level of testing.)

    As another question, especially to the ladies breast pumping, does the release of oxytocin cause the mind to focus on a specific topic? Ie. Kid or husband?

    2. Vasopressin is the bonding hormone in men. Not sure on the effects of oxytocin within the male body.

    As a very serious note, these are not the only chemicals released. Theres well over 50 just in sperm all of which work in concert to cause multiple effects. I’m sure the body releases just as many in response to orgasm.

    Between the sexes they would differ in both type and quantity, tissues will have different types and levels of receptors which will cause different responses to certain signal hormones. Basically, to say X hormone causes X effect is somewhat simplistic (similar to your use of the DDR4 receptor mutation, its sometimes, but rarely ever just one gene (or in this case hormone)).

    —————–

    Now to very hypothetical stuff.

    Why would the clit (or female orgasm) in general even exist.
    It obviously has a reason for existence.

    Since we know that relationship (beta males) sex triggers more orgasm and that the males in those relationships rely more heavily on fidelity (via bondedness among other techniques) to ensure reproduction perhaps the female orgasm evolved based upon male sexual selection.

    Aka, guys who wanted girlfriends selected women capable of providing obvious cues to bondedness which is an indirect measure of fidelity.
    Aka, if she is hurting your eardrums she is less likely to cheat.
    Since the LTmale is heavily reliant upon having a few quality children, it would make sense to have mechanisms to ensure they are his children. (Obvious I know.)

    This would make sense, we always assume that selection was placed upon males over the last 1.5my so they became more beta (short-form) but in reality women were very likely in a similar competition to become what those males required (obvious signs of fidelity).

    So men were selecting women who could orgasm, loud and proud so to speak,
    Women were selecting men capable and willing to provide. (A Red Queen Equilibrium.)

    ——————-

    Now, before all the women who don’t orgasm frequently or often get pissed and assume I am calling them adulterous bitches.

    There will be a limit at which bonding via orgasm plateaus. Above that limit it won’t cause an increase in bondedness.
    However to the perceiving male, it might be the case that he perceives it as increased bondedness regardless of its ridiculousness (ie. porn sounds are still hot, even if ridiculous, but of course I am highly unrestricted so YMMV).

    Also, infidelity (of the kind that results in men raising other mens children) is fairly dichotomous. She either does or does not cheat. Not much in between on that one.

    Therefore the level of bondedness (and orgasms) need only exceed that amount and infidelity would not be a problem.

    And if we assume that human ancestors lacked a clit (honestly no idea) that level would not necessarily have to be at glass shattering levels.

    ——————-

    Couple random thoughts.

    Its also a possibility that the cuckolding women could have developed loud and vocal orgasms to mimic the bonded, faithful women and thus ensure their cheating ways go undetected (note: this does not mean they have to be over the top about it.)

    They make fake the orgasm which is I assume why men will go red in the face upon learning a women is faking orgasms. It (to me for sure) screams, I am a cheater and am trying to deceive you. This is of course, all sub-conscious.

    Another possibility is that they actually have orgasms but do not experience increased bondedness.

    Note: Those two strategies are not mutually exclusive, both could exist.

    ——–

    Next,

    We have reports of women here not orgasming with one set of guy(s) then doing so easily with their husbands.

    This lends to credence to the idea that upon finding a suitable male for the LT women orgasm more easily than with one who is not suitable for the LT. (Not necessarily by behavioural traits, could also be genetic incompatibility or something else.)

    So much like women respond to spit as a genetic test. Orgasming MAY (not is) be the mans way of knowing he got the A+ (across one or multiple categories, which are unknown, but qualify him for the LTR).

    (Note: I had a second point here but forgot to jot it in my notes, will insert in later comment when it pops back into my head.)

    —————

    From a guys POV, especially the LT guy, it behooves him to find a woman capable of orgasm.

    At least, within the constraints of this theory.

    Beyond that, having a women gutturally moan your monosyllabic (nicknames are a necessity) name repeatedly it by far one of the best things this life has to offer.

    ——–

    Obviously, this is just a collection of random thoughts that have been in no way tested or even researched.

    Don’t take is as gospel, just a collection of ideas.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    You are correct, my words were to harsh.

    “If you don’t think that some people, both men and women, who hold power in the SMP give crumbs to the beggars, I don’t know what to tell you. I see such dynamics around me all the time.”

    I would disagree that those people have power. What they have is value.
    If the beggar realizes they cannot purchase the goods and stops accepting (and paying) for those scraps then that person loses all of their power.

    Which then draws into question, who actually holds the power?

    The high value person, but they had no control over the retention of that power.

    Or the low value beggar, they were able to remove the high value person power but that did not grant them any of their own.

    Power is an extremely (misty) concept. By that I mean it is neither real nor particularly useful unless people are willing to allow you to use it.

    ———–

    Beyond that, the beggar may not have options when begging, but all one needs to do is stop begging and the options become plentiful.

    If I were to try and date movie stars, I would have no power yet dating women of similar SMV I am very capable of being picky.

    So, begging, is not actually indicative of a lack of power nor options but a really pathetic way of granting power to those who have more value than oneself whose power is entirely dependent upon that person begging.

    Because that high value person amongst their peers is still subject to selection and expectations.

    If you had used the term value I would have let is pass. Power otoh is a very weird, ambiguous concept.

    Nor of course does begging imply a lack of options. Maybe at one level but certainly not all of them.

  • Abbot

    The author wrote this book based solely on her reading of every post and comment on this website

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0520261496/?tag=saloncom08-20

    .

  • Sassy6519

    I apologize to everyone in advance, but I need to take a moment to vent.

    One of my best friends came up from Nashville, TN to visit me for the weekend. She and I decided to go bar hopping last night, and our final stop was this bar that I’ve been to a few times.

    I walked in and gave my ID to the person at the door. Afterwards, I turned around and spotted the notorious ex-bf (the guy I dated for a year, and the relationship that nearly left me in a crumpled heap). He was with a new girl and another couple. I also knew the other guy, and he came up and greeted me with somewhat awkward shock. I decided not to speak with the ex-bf, especially considering that he was with a new woman.

    The most shocking thing is that he looked so different physically, and not in a good way. He has gained a significant amount of weight (somewhere between 30-40 pounds), and he is nowhere near as hot as he once was. His new girl is also not a looker, even in the slightest sense. She looked like she weighed over 200 pounds, and her face was mediocre at best.

    He looked at me a few times, but I acted very casually. When my friend and I got a table of our own, we talked about the encounter. My friend, who is equally as blunt as I am, held back no punches. She said that his new girl was a significant downgrade from me, but she also said that they were a match for each other physically since he let his appearance go so much.

    As much as I wanted to gloat about it (which a small part of me did), I also feel really screwed up mentally after seeing him again. I can logically acknowledge how bad we were for each other, but a part of me just feels sad now all over again. He was my first love, and seeing him again just opened up old wounds. Seeing him again ruined my entire evening, and I really wish that the process in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind existed. :(

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hola Esau,

    Good post there. GWW is some amazing stuff, though I admit I don’t watch as I perhaps should. There are a lot of other competitors for my time, after all ;)
    What I mean in regards to Kate, is to sit and observe, and try to stem the initial vomiting reaction you’re going to get. I am not going to lie, I get the same impression from her post. But that doesn’t mean you can’t learn anything from her post about how some women interpret the world and how they see pop culture painting them into a corner.
    That doesn’t mean they are RIGHT.
    But it doesn’t hurt to LISTEN.
    When I say, don’t take them seriously, I mean, I would not invite this woman to a serious discussion about the issues of the day and ask for her input on useful resolutions. She has set her camp up and it is not amenable to a diplomatic solution.
    What I suggest is that reading this particular blog post might actually cause us to learn something, not that we would she give into her ridiculousness. ;)
    In regards to the LJBF’in, she was trying to be nice to guys and they interpreted it as romantic interest. This does in fact happen, it shows up in studies again and again that men overestimate the interest of women. This is, of course, how it SHOULD be, but that doesn’t mean that these types of situations do not also create discomfort on the woman’s part. If she actually wants friendship, she should not be leading you on, but neither should you get angry that she isn’t reciprocating your romantic feelings. Just FIDO.
    By focusing entirely on male pain in the situation and castigating all women who LJBF as monsters, well, we aren’t getting very far, and I would say that women are going to pissed at us/scared of us.
    GF does understand the LJBF dynamic now, I am not so sure she did when she was younger, so I would not be surprised if she was behaving inapproriately. Nonetheless, it helps to have a conversation and not just posturing, or you can’t hear what the other side wants and thinks.

    I am definitely not a White Knight. Any phases of White Knightedness I have quickly devolve into Templar Knight when I get pissed at other people. SayWhattttt asked where I live, I guess the real answer is the North Chicago Suburbs, but my White Knight answer would be Hell, but I have the Sword of Damocles.

    @ Han
    Agreed. Getting pissed at Nice Guys accomplishes nothing. But it serves as an excellent litmus test!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That really does suck, Susan. I am sorry you had to go through that :(

    On the other hand, today is Sunday, which means another day of no work and plenty of opportunity to have some destressing and fun, right? ;)

  • Womanoid

    On the Brazilian women comment (among first answers). I’m half Brazilian, half American woman living in Europe. Here’s a very brief, very general summary of what I see and based on what I’ve had people from Western cultures tell me:

    American men are fed up with the very demanding American women and their checklists for male partners, with their “just have to have” attitude: a ring bigger than their friends’s, a house bigger than the Jones’s etc. The worst of it all: when the women get all this they simply stop having sex with their husbands – while still demanding more credit cards.

    Northern European men are going online or flying to Asia to find Asian wives because they’re barely able to distinguish women from men on the street since their women are just like dudes. Heaven’s forbid a Northern European man try to treat a woman like a lady, she’ll bark at him. The dudes just want a sweet lady who’ll take care of them and who’s ok with their weird fetishes.

    A huge list of American men have told me they like Brazilian women because they’re feminine, they shower every day, they smell good (like women) AND they have sex with their men. Brazilian women do look at American (and European) men and see dollar signs but contrary to American women at least they put out and they’re not uptight puritans.

    Again, super general but the complaints I get all boil down to this.

  • HanSolo

    @Esau

    I watched the video. It’s an interesting explanation, that feminists say they want a respectful and supportive man who isn’t abusive but many men who act that way are below the level of what the feminists believe they deserve or are attracted to. This level will likely be inflated in some or many women (and not just feminists) due to narcissism, you-can-have-it-all girl culture, being approached by higher-value men looking for casual, etc.

    Since the feminists aren’t finding themselves attracted to many of the men that have the traits they say they want then in order to preserve their world view then they invent some reason as to why they are justified in not liking the nice guys and are being logically consistent (through using a false accusation). This false or exaggerated accusation is that nice guys are only being nice to get sex–thus they can be branded as fake manipulators and worthy of derision. (Of course there are some men who fake being nice to get something but certainly not all and not even likely the majority.)

    I think there’s likely some truth to this explanation and will think through it and make another comment shortly.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Womanoid, I think that is a good summary of the reasons men typically give for celebrating places like Thailand and Brasil. I suppose that the general sense is that relationships in those countries are more complementary and less competitive, as gender roles and expectations are usually more clear-cut (man provides resources and protection; woman provides nurturing and sex).

    It must be added, of course, that many of these men really do o over and
    try to affect “Mr. Big Spender” stereotypes that attract girls who are looking for $$$ to some extent. That happens in the US as well, but the spending level required to signal these same qualities is much higher here, thus it is easier for many guys to play this role overseas and to enjoy the ensuing SMV boost.

    Sassy: I think you had a very normal reaction to seeing an ex out with another woman. His physical deterioration is interesting and probably proves the old SEAL adage that “alpha is perishable.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Sassy, I’m sorry to hear that. It sounds like an awkward situation all around. 30-40lbs on a guy shouldn’t make him totally obese though, and it seems he was seeing a girl who was? That’s a bit odd.

    Since you mention Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, when I watched it with my husband (then boyfriend) a few years ago, we both didn’t like the movie and thought it was a portrayal of some rather dysfunctional relationships. Take that into consideration, as you know you were not compatible.

    First love can really have a brutal impact on you when it doesn’t work out, but take comfort in knowing that you can fall in love again. It may take another few years, though. There were years that passed for me…

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    ADBG, I used to live in Evanston, and I don’t remember the social scene being that bad. But then again I hung out mostly with an older and more settled crowd.

    Lokland, there are several flaws with your theories, but perhaps some truths.

    One, eardrum test is not the best. For example I tended to be vocal no matter what, which seemed to make the guys think I was satisfied/had o’s when that was not the case.

    Two, if there are lots of women reporting dissatisfaction in LTRs and marriages, then that does not lend credence to your idea that there are lots of easily orgasmic women who are happy in relationships. I don’t know the stats on this, however.

    Three, genetic “quality” is a loaded term. What kind of quality does it mean? Alpha thugs for example might seem to have good genes to those women who value such things, but to me that’s a total turn-off. If it only means physical health and good immune system, then maybe, but there again, it does not take other traits into account.

  • HanSolo

    @Esau and anyone else interested in why feminists deride nice guys

    Here’s a simple explanation that could be added to the one that Girl Writes What gets at:

    Usually people are nicer to people they like. A man of equal or lower value than a woman will probably like her more than will a man of higher value.

    For the hypergamous woman, then obviously a man acting nice to a woman will paint himself as equal or lower value to some degree and thus allow her to screen him out (in this simplistic scenario; in the real world things are more complicated).

    In the case of feminism, one of the goals is to make women independent of men and to raise the collective power of women. Initially this was to achieve equality but as more and more gains have been achieved it seems to have morphed into actually desiring superiority (all the while continuing the claim that women are victims and all males have some level of privilege–basically, continue to pursue equality where women are behind and deflect attention from areas where they’re superior or to crow about how women are intrinsically better and deserve that).

    One of the main messages of feminism is that women should have as high-powered a career as possible. Feminists proclaim this message at every turn (though some more moderate ones are realizing you can’t have it all). Girls are taught this at school where wanting to grow up to be a mom is not viewed as an acceptable answer and they have to say some career or other, and the more prestigious the better–yeah, nurse is fine but a doctor would be so much better. Parents and others in the culture often provide this message too, in the more watered-down version of get your career settled first and then look for a husband.

    How does this fit into shaming nice guys? Well, the guys who actually like the women enough to want to have an LTR/marriage with them, treat them well and be good partners are likely guys of equal or lesser value. Of course there are assholes of equal or lesser value too that won’t treat anyone well but they should be avoided, period.

    Whether it’s consciously intended or not, by getting women to despise nice guys it is keeping these women out of relationships with the very guys (those of equal value) that would be ideal for marriage.

    And if women aren’t married and are also on birth control then it keeps these women free to optimize their careers and thus promote the goal of raising women’s collective economic and career power.

    My hypothesis is that, in addition to suaving their consciences for rejecting the guys that fulfill what feminists say they want in a man but just don’t trigger attraction triggers they don’t want to admit, feminists subconsciously deride nice guys to keep women from marriage and the likely outcome of children so that they will naturally continue unfettered in the workplace. The more insightful feminist might actually be aware of this and consciously shame women away from the very men that would make the best mates, though I think that in most cases the result is being achieved without conscious purpose in doing so.

    Whatever the reason, either due to hypergamy and actively seeking guys out of their league, or shaming the nice guys in her league, or just not even considering marriage a possibility until later, they all combine to keep some women single longer than they would be otherwise and thus freed up to achieve greater career success.

    This relates to the article mentioned before in the Atlantic about how young women are shamed into not seeking relationships in their 20′s so that they can focus on career (and I left some comments there if anyone is interested in reading them):

    http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/women-in-their-20s-shouldnt-feel-bad-about-wanting-a-boyfriend/273737/

  • Bells

    @Lokland
    Nope, I’m definitely not implying that most older men are pervy. I actually have a couple of old men that I’m close to in a grandfatherly way. I absolutely adore them and for some reason or another they’ve taken a liking towards me. There are some occasions in which they’ve seen me dressed up in a sexy attire. And I’m aware that they are not blind to my looks and body. But I strongly believe that they would never make any type of romantic move on me out of personal self-respect and out of consideration of our friendship. If one of them ever asked me out on a “date”, I would immediately decline simply because I don’t want to be put into that position.

    On the other hand, there is one older man who has shown blatant/sleazy interest in me. I can’t be rude if he wants to start a conversation (its been ingrained that I must respect my elders) but I make sure to widen the standing distance between us, and I try to end the conversation quickly and politely. There will always be older men who like to push the boundaries of younger girls– I’m not denying their biological responses, and I would never be harshly rude to them but I would not partake or encourage their attitudes. It’s just a very uncomfortable situation for young women to be placed in.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also, infidelity (of the kind that results in men raising other mens children) is fairly dichotomous. She either does or does not cheat. Not much in between on that one.
    If we go by the process from thinking on infidelity and acting on it there is probably an spectrum. Even if the act is very black and white men are probably interested on attaining women less likely to do so and for that their behaviour is probably important.

    And if we assume that human ancestors lacked a clit (honestly no idea) that level would not necessarily have to be at glass shattering levels.

    What do you make of cultures that opted for cliterectomy? More of their reasoning was that it prevented female infidelity and this were very ancient patriarchal culture. If the orgasm bonded women they wouldn’t had though on cutting it off don’t you think?
    Maybe orgasm purpose was to bond men to their women and make sure they stayed around. If you think about it men are the ones obsessed with it, and the ones that get the rewards from the yelling and the theatrics. If only a minority of women can orgasm nowadays from the penetration only but pretty much all of them can yell and scream in a way that make the men feel accomplished then maybe this is another female trick to keep the man around. Which is again the best way to ensure that he will provide for her and her kids, YMMV.

  • HanSolo

    From the Atlantic article, some of the herd’s doctrine to single young women and its effects:

    When I talk to real women, as I did in researching my book on sexual freedom and 20-something women, I hear young women’s mixed feelings about relationships. Some young women deeply desire meaningful relationships with men, even as they feel guilty about those desires. Many express the same sentiment again and again: “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value relationships with men so highly?” To do so feels like a betrayal of themselves, of their education, and of their achievements.

    RELATED STORY

    There’s No Perfect Age to Find a Husband
    Katie, a 25-year-old woman I spoke with as part of my research, confided that she worried her single-minded pursuit of a graduate degree might limit her ability to meet a man with whom she could build a life. This realization—that she might want to prioritize a relationship over a career—felt shocking to Katie, and she did not admit to it easily. She felt deeply ashamed by such thoughts, worried that they signaled weakness and dependence, qualities she did not admire. To put such a high premium on relationships was frightening to Katie. She worried that it meant she wasn’t liberated and was still defined by traditional expectations of women.

    I have heard Katie’s dilemma from countless young women. Many feel ashamed about being too relationship-oriented in their 20s. Parents warn, “Do you really want to settle down so early? We just don’t want to see you miss out on any opportunities.” Friends intone, “How will you know what you like and want if you don’t play the field? You’re only young once. Now’s the time to explore.”

    With women delaying marriage—the average age at first marriage for college-educated women is now 27—there is ample time for young women to focus on self- and career-development in their 20s. Laura Hamilton and Elizabeth Armstrong, sociologists at University of California, Merced and the University of Michigan studied relationship patterns among upper-middle-class female college students, and they discovered that these women believed relational commitments were supposed to take a backseat to self-development. And that young women often found relationships to be “greedy,” demanding excessive amounts of time and energy that detracted from the main tasks of college—educational achievements and meeting people. Hamilton and Armstrong found that young women often sought protection from relationships that could “derail their ambition.”

    Like Hamilton and Armstrong’s respondents, many young and aspiring women with whom I spoke felt as though it were counterproductive to their development to prioritize a relationship with a man. This is a new phenomenon that goes against the grain of centuries of female socialization. Historically, women have been encouraged to value relationships, often at the expense of their own aspirations. Today’s young women are part of a new generation of highly educated women who are, of course, still socialized differently than are men, but who feel they ought to focus on their career goals in their 20s, potentially at the expense of developing a relationship. All the women I interviewed felt this pressure, and many expressed anxiety over their desire to prioritize a relationship.

  • HanSolo

    And this Atlantic-article line really sums it up:

    “Romantic relationships then often become something to be avoided and denigrated rather than embraced.”

  • HanSolo

    If you want to reduce the number of relationships then you denigrate the very men that would make good partners and who are likely to want relationships with a given woman and that she could be interested in:

    the ones of equal value that treat her well, aka the nice guys.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My hypothesis is that, in addition to suaving their consciences for rejecting the guys that fulfill what feminists say they want in a man but just don’t trigger attraction triggers they don’t want to admit, feminists subconsciously deride nice guys to keep women from marriage and the likely outcome of children so that they will naturally continue unfettered in the workplace. The more insightful feminist might actually be aware of this and consciously shame women away from the very men that would make the best mates, though I think that in most cases the result is being achieved without conscious purpose in doing so.
    I mentioned this lots of time before you arrived at HUS. Nice guys is a term that seems to cause a lot of derision here in the States but around the world is the ideal.
    Do you remember the study that said that if a man asked his wife to leave work and tend to children and the house they will divorce him? The POV of the women is that any man that wants something traditional is a step away from beating/cheating and be a crappy husband in general. Is not surprising that a nice guy that offers commitment easily goes into the same box because being a traditional woman is perceived as a benefit to the man not the woman.
    The only way being traditional works for a woman is if she chooses it on her own free will after acquiring the tools to not be traditional if she doesn’t feel like it or move on from a bad marriage because she has the money and education to do so if the man pressures for traditional it means he wants to control you. Again nice guy = oppressive patriarchy, Jerk = wants a liberated, independent woman both sexually, economically and socially = progressive man.
    Of course all this fails to take in account the mess in the long run for when the woman wants to switch gears and get his ‘progresive man’ to commit because he will whether fail to do so because he actually never intended to switch gears with her or she has such conflict with domesticity that he switching gears make him look too ‘nice guy’ killing her attraction. Let’s say that women can have the Madonna/Whore complex too. Thoughts?

  • Lokland

    @Hope/Ana

    “One, eardrum test is not the best.”
    Two, if there are lots of women reporting dissatisfaction in LTRs and marriages, then that does not lend credence to your idea that there are lots of easily orgasmic women who are happy in relationships. I don’t know the stats on this, however.
    Three, genetic “quality” is a loaded term.”

    1. Was not using the glass shattering concept literally. merely a metaphor for a woman having orgasms. There are multiple ways of demonstrating such things.
    2. Most people, men and women, report they are very satisfied with their sex lives. Also, stats above ~65% of women in a relationship had an orgasm last time they had sax (double the casual sex number).
    (I am curious why you think many women are not happy in their LTRs?)
    3. Not really, genetic quality is highly relative. A man with mutations in the CF gene will want a woman who does not (thus sparing the child). As a general rule heterozygosity > homozygosity.
    It is of course relevant to the individual but that does not make it loaded. And unlike you stated, genetic quality is a measure of all of a persons traits not merely the physical you mentioned.

    “f we go by the process from thinking on infidelity and acting on it there is probably an spectrum”

    Yes but cuckolding requires the woman to have sex with another man. Thinking about it will not cause it to happen.

    I agree that the farther away one is from that line the better and that men would choose accordingly. I don’t know where you think I stated otherwise.

    “What do you make of cultures that opted for cliterectomy? ”

    Off the top of my head the only cultures I know that do this are in Africa which tend to be the most promiscuous and highly polygynous.

    As for Ancient cultures, don’t know of any off the top of my head nor am I am expert in history.

    “Maybe orgasm purpose was to bond men to their women and make sure they stayed around. If you think about it men are the ones obsessed with it, and the ones that get the rewards from the yelling and the theatrics.”

    I said that. (mention of the Red Queen)
    However, we need to ask why men want woman who orgasm.
    I would say the drive is nearly as strong as the drive for hot, young and tight.
    There is no direct reward for the yelling except feeling good.

    I was attempting to provide an explanation for why it felt good.

  • HanSolo

    I think men of good character and their female allies should not give into the denigration of the nice guy. The phrase shouldn’t be used in a derogatory fashion because the message sent is that men shouldn’t be kind in order to get women. What a great message for society: assholes can be themselves and kind guys have to go to the dark side and join them or “die”.

    (Of course, I realize that there is a middle ground of not being a fawning pushover or an abusive asshole but many of the traits of the nice guy are actually desirable for a relationship and get denigrated by shaming nice guys.)

    Interestingly enough, many of the game non-misogynistic game/PUA resources buy into a lot of the feminist dogmas, that nice guys really aren’t nice because they’re just trying to trick the woman into sex (a real-enough occurance but ignoring all the genuinely kind guys who like to treat women well), that men shouldn’t hold a woman’s N against her, that players should let women know that they don’t judge women for exploring and enjoying their sexuality, to not worry about the men she’s been with in the past because she’s choosing you in the present–basically lots of ideas to encourage either short-term sex or the acceptance of high-N women for LTRs.

  • SayWhaat

    ADBG, I used to live in Evanston, and I don’t remember the social scene being that bad. But then again I hung out mostly with an older and more settled crowd.

    FWIW, I don’t think I have experienced those dynamics in my social circles, either.

    Then again, my social circles have drastically diminished/scattered.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    I agree that the feminists have waged and are waging a war on anything they perceive as the “oppressive patriarchy.” I have observed amongst latinas that due to the higher percentage of players and cheaters in their culture that they tend to value a good-hearted, romantic guy more than American(-ized) women do. I have noticed that they seem to value intelligence and nerdy/STEM education more in men, both intrinsically and because it could provide a good living. I also noticed that more beautiful women down there found it fascinating that I was an astronomer than up here–and they loved to have lengthy conversations about the matter. That was quite the surprise to me.

    The nice-guy/asshole complex or something similarly worded would be the equivalent of the madonna/whore complex in men.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    “Again nice guy = oppressive patriarchy, Jerk = wants a liberated, independent woman both sexually, economically and socially = progressive man.”

    That reminds me of the Dave Chapelle line, “chivalry is dead and women killed it.”

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    Here’s some of the attitudes of extreme feminists about marriage:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_marriage

    Some feminists seek the end of formal marriage: “The institution of marriage is the chief vehicle for the perpetuation of the oppression of women; it is through the role of wife that the subjugation of women is maintained.”[7]
    Individuals such as Sheila Cronan claim that “[f]reedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage”[8] and point to historical, legal and social inequalities of wedding, family life and divorce.
    Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.—Andrea Dworkin
    Early second wave feminist literature specifically opposed to marriage include: [9]
    Kate Millett, Sexual Politics (1969)
    Germaine Greer, The Female Eunuch (1970)
    Marilyn French, The Women’s Room (1977)
    Jessie Bernard, The Future of Marriage (1972)
    Shulamith Firestone, The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution (1970)

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Most people, men and women, report they are very satisfied with their sex lives. Also, stats above ~65% of women in a relationship had an orgasm last time they had sax (double the casual sex number).
    (I am curious why you think many women are not happy in their LTRs?)

    Well it’s the manosphere claim that married women are very dissatisfied with their beta husbands.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I agree that the farther away one is from that line the better and that men would choose accordingly. I don’t know where you think I stated otherwise.

    I was just clarifying.

    Off the top of my head the only cultures I know that do this are in Africa which tend to be the most promiscuous and highly polygynous.

    Is a bit more complex than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliterectomy

    I was attempting to provide an explanation for why it felt good.
    True but the difference is that I think is more for male bonding to the orgasmic woman than from women bonding to the man that produces the more orgasms or at least is perceived that way.

    I agree that the feminists have waged and are waging a war on anything they perceive as the “oppressive patriarchy.”

    Also the narrative says that women are better than men and men are naturally ‘dark’ a nice guy challenges this idea so how can you cope with years of programing? You think they are just dishonest thus the jerks are at least honest about the bad nature of men and reinforce the idea that all men are bad anyway so you might as well be on your guard all the time. Of course this also clash with the natural desire to settle down and have a stable family. Heh is a miracle things are not worst if you think all this factors are in conflict inside young women that have no idea what to do and can’t speak about this to anyone in the herd.

  • HanSolo

    @Ana

    That is a good point, that if men are all assumed to be evil, privileged oppressors then you only have two kinds of oppressors, the honest asshole and the dishonest asshole faking to be nice.

  • Abbot

    “basically lots of ideas to encourage either short-term sex or the acceptance of high-N women for LTRs.”

    They want men to view fucking as meaningless recreation as that is how women view it. But its not “equal fucking for equal work.”

  • The Bennetts

    “Not splitting hairs. LJBF is often used and interpreted as actually meaning let’s just be pleasant acquaintances that say hi on the street and no more, which is very different from a real friendship.”

    So what? Are women obligated to be our real friends just because we may want them to? There seems to be an attitude of entitlement in all of this. We can’t make someone like us more than they do. Pleasantries between acquaintances is just fine.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, I was mainly objecting to what you said about highly orgasmic women being the most “relationship-oriented” women. The correlation seems tenuous at best.

    Re 1) Basically, lots of women have reported faking orgasms. It is also convincing enough (eardrums) that most men cannot tell. So maybe women can get in relationships by faking orgasms to make the man happy.

    Re 2) I said “if,” which again goes back to the faking scenarios. Also women can be happy with their relatinships without orgasms. It’s not the case for men. There are also reports of women who basically stop sex after having babies.

    Re 3) Since you define genetic quality that way, it is highly individualized. But take me personally as an example. I did not share heritage with past boyfriends, and there was a high degree of heterozygosity. No orgasmic abilities with them. How should that be explained? Does my husband have even more heterozygosity or something?

    About Anacaona’s reference to clitoral removal, it is an Islamic thing, practiced in “Western, eastern, and north-eastern Africa, Middle East, Near East, Southeast Asia” according to Wikipedia. It is done to reduce female desire and sexual pleasure. How does this square with your assertion that men want women to orgasm so much as an evolutionarily adaptive trait?

  • The Bennetts

    “Like Hamilton and Armstrong’s respondents, many young and aspiring women with whom I spoke felt as though it were counterproductive to their development to prioritize a relationship with a man. This is a new phenomenon that goes against the grain of centuries of female socialization. Historically, women have been encouraged to value relationships, often at the expense of their own aspirations.”

    And that is no better than prioritizing career at the expense of marriage and family, if marriage and family are what one wants. I have a problem with the use of the “relationship” word in this context. There’s no reason why either a woman or man should prioritize simply a “relationship” over their life goals which also include higher education and career. What does “relationship” even mean? We go through several “relationships” in life, boyfriends and girlfriends come and go. Its foolish to not pursue one’s goals over a mere boyfriend or girlfriend. However a spouse and children are a different matter. The spouse is bound to you not only socially and sexually but legally as well. I don’t see any such concrete commitments in mere “relationships”.

  • The Bennetts

    “Womanoid, I think that is a good summary of the reasons men typically give for celebrating places like Thailand and Brasil. I suppose that the general sense is that relationships in those countries are more complementary and less competitive, as gender roles and expectations are usually more clear-cut (man provides resources and protection; woman provides nurturing and sex).”

    I don’t know about Brasil but Thailand is the international capital of the sex trade industry and human trafficking and child prostitution and “lady-boys”. That’s what men from all over the world are flying in there for. Not for “complementary relationships” and “nurturing.” SMH.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    HanSolo, yes “foreign women” know how bad men can be in these other countries, and the “niceness” of Western men is very highly regarded. I think this is something that does not get mentioned much because people in the West take it for granted.

    The conversation on female genital mutilation is just one example. Other examples are sex trafficking and foot binding. I grew up hearing about these as a young girl in China. I knew elderly women whose feet were bound. I knew women being beaten by their husbands. It’s just taken for granted.

    I did not know much about white guys at all until I actually came to the US. Then it struck me, “guys here actually treat women nicely?” As a young girl I really appreciated that. I sought out such “nice” guys. I actually fell for the ex because he told me stories of being chivalrous and hating guys who beat up girls. He turned out to be a liar, but I digress.

    My husband is probably the “nicest” of all the guys I’ve met. He has a genuinely good heart and is compassionate, kind and loving. I fell in love big time because of that. I don’t think I am alone. There are probably millions upon millions of women who would fall in love with a man like him, all around the world. But they are not so lucky…

  • The Bennetts

    “The other form of misandry I’ve written about several times is that in our educational system. ”

    Can you speak more about this. I’m a bit baffled as this seems to only be an American phenomena that boys are doing considerably less well in school than girls, or at least that is what pop media would have us believe. In other countries, which do not even have recess sometimes, and the study load is considerably larger and kids are expected to behave even more, boys are doing equally as well as girls and even outpacing in some areas.

    ” Brazilian women do look at American (and European) men and see dollar signs but contrary to American women at least they put out and they’re not uptight puritans.”

    Womanoid, aren’t Brazilian women who “put out” for American and European tourists also putting out for the next batch of tourists who roll through? They basically rotate through these men in exchange for dinners in nice restaurants and entry to high priced night clubs, right? They do this through their twenties and once nearing 30 try to get one of these foreign men to marry them, right?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Bastiat Blogger and Hope

    Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I was a bit shaken up this morning, but I think I’ve recovered a bit over the course of the day. I hope I don’t run into him again any time soon.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    The Bennetts, yeah I have nothing but loathing and disdain for those men who go to Thailand and take advantage of the sex trade.

    When I was a kid, one of the things my relatives would say to me to scare me, so I wouldn’t run off by myself, is talking about the “snatchers” who would take kids, sell them on the black market and work them like slaves. They didn’t mention the prostitution part, but when I got older, I put two and two together, and that is probably what they were talking about.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My husband is probably the “nicest” of all the guys I’ve met. He has a genuinely good heart and is compassionate, kind and loving. I fell in love big time because of that. I don’t think I am alone. There are probably millions upon millions of women who would fall in love with a man like him, all around the world. But they are not so lucky…
    Cosign that. Hubby is the best man I have ever know and I love him for that. And I feel blessed that such a gentle soul loves me too. :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, your observations remind me of this much-discussed commentary, “Goodbye to Good Men”:

    http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=OeL-Fn0V8iU

  • Abbot

    What should a man do?

    He can refuse to participate in the dominant feminized culture. He can withdraw and/or form a strong, well-defined subculture with strong taboos and social ostracism for violating those taboos. The best of both worlds is to expatriate with a critical mass of men who share the same vision, marrying foreign women and establishing a strong subculture there.

    .

  • Sassy6519

    I don’t have any particularly strong qualms with men going outside of the US to find women to date. My only concern, however, is for the women in the US who are not crazed feminazis or promiscuous. Men looking elsewhere lowers our chances of finding US men to marry. What are we to do? Should we be punished because some of our fellow sisters are rabid and off-putting?

  • The Bennetts

    “My only concern, however, is for the women in the US who are not crazed feminazis or promiscuous. Men looking elsewhere lowers our chances of finding US men to marry. What are we to do? Should we be punished because some of our fellow sisters are rabid and off-putting?”

    You can also go abroad. You can start by meeting foreign men online and see if anything develops if you don’t have the funds or free time right now to take a trip.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy “I don’t have any particularly strong qualms with men going outside of the US to find women to date. My only concern, however, is for the women in the US who are not crazed feminazis or promiscuous. Men looking elsewhere lowers our chances of finding US men to marry. What are we to do? Should we be punished because some of our fellow sisters are rabid and off-putting?”

    Actually most men don’t look elsewhere. They kind of just stay and drop out of the dating game, like my husband did. The key is to find them in their usual hangouts, which is easy to do if you play video games. :P

  • Sassy6519

    @ The Bennetts

    You can also go abroad. You can start by meeting foreign men online and see if anything develops if you don’t have the funds or free time right now to take a trip.

    Actually, looking abroad for a man would be a last ditch effort of desperation for me. I don’t really see myself living in a different country anytime soon, and I’m not sure that I would ever be able to make a LDR of that caliber work anyway. I’d much rather just find a guy near me that I can spend time with fairly often. If that never comes to fruition, I may look elsewhere. My eye would be set on Italy. My mother was stationed in the military there for awhile, and she told me how much Italian men love black women. ;)

    @ Hope

    Actually most men don’t look elsewhere. They kind of just stay and drop out of the dating game, like my husband did. The key is to find them in their usual hangouts, which is easy to do if you play video games. :P

    True. I don’t play video games nearly as often as I used to though. I’d potentially like to meet a guy through a mutual hobby, but my hobbies are not very conducive to meeting straight men. Pottery, theatre, and karaoke don’t really bring the straight men out in droves.

  • Jesse

    Ouch Jesse, it’s just a parody!

    Relax, it’s no big deal.

    I am amused by your talk about older men, though. Are you hanging out in the wrong places, dear?

  • Jesse

    I’m getting out of my depth here, but preferring foreign women ‘because they’re more feminine’ just means to me that whoever says that is not man enough to handle women here. I’m not suggesting there aren’t bitches in North America, but if you need some dainty little Thai 24 year-old to feel manly… then I’m guessing you ain’t manly.

    I have no problem with chasing or preferring foreign women, but if that’s your reason it just smacks me of a small man trying to feel big.

  • Jesse

    Strike the ‘me’ in the last sentence there.

  • Abbot

    “but preferring foreign women ‘because they’re more feminine’ just means to me that whoever says that is not man enough to handle women here. ”

    Relationships are tough enough. If “handling” is required…RUN!

    .

  • HanSolo

    @Jesse

    There’s some of that but there’s also some women that just see men as the enemy and don’t want to be handled–any attempt at handling will invoke a bitch fest of epic proportions.

  • Jesse

    Well yes, you have a point. There are ‘feminist bitches’ or however you’d like to describe them.

    It’s just the impression I get, and I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth to it.

  • Abbot

    Sure, there are wifely women in the States. Its the needle in the haystack. Why not just go to the needle factory? Its all about probability. The probability is just way higher elsewhere. Plus its fun to watch feminists go berserk over this topic. Thus, its a win win for men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sure, there are wifely women in the States. Its the needle in the haystack. Why not just go to the needle factory? Its all about probability.

      Based on all the data we have, 80% of American women are not slutty, and nearly that number say they do not identify as feminist.

      The reasons to go abroad to find a wife include:

      Wanting to marry a virgin
      SMV boost for American males

      There was an article about expats marrying Thai women in the New York Times a while back. It’s not all wonderful.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/25/world/asia/25iht-thai.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

      Some of the earliest Thai-American marriages were in Udon Thani, the site of a U.S. air base in the 1960s during the Vietnam War. In the following years, most Americans left, sometimes taking a Thai wife with them. Now the presence of American and European men is growing again. “In the northeast where this phenomenon is strongest, a huge majority of the women there are looking for a foreign boyfriend or husband, and I think some of them can be quite assertive, and aggressive in their pursuing of a foreign man,” said Mr. Nicks.

      A clash of expectations strains many marriages, and more than half end in divorce, said Prayoon Thavon, manager of international services at Panyavejinter Hospital in Udon Thani.

      While the men — many of them retired and living on pensions, many disappointed in their lives and marriages at home — may be seeking an emotional connection, the women are generally motivated by economics, said Mr. Prayoon, who provides counseling for mixed couples.

      “For some ladies it is just money, money, money,” he said. “Getting married has become a business more than love. People want to improve their social status. Sometimes these ladies spend the husband’s money, use it all, then he’s cut out. There are many cases like that.”

      Even though many men are retired and living on a fixed income, they are expected to help support their wives’ extended families, beginning with a dowry of several thousand dollars.

      “When you get married in Thailand you are marrying the whole family, the whole village,” Mr. Prayoon said. “Often the lady expects that, but the man doesn’t understand.”

      There seems to be less concern about differences in age, with many bridegrooms in their 50s or 60s or even 70s.

  • HanSolo

    Yeah, last night after watching a movie at a friend’s I was driving home and decided to stop by a club and saw an example of brash bitchiness as two chicks got in a shouting, swearing and pushing match. Then one of them got into with some guy as well. You can find such repellent women in other parts of the world too but it seems like there’s more of them here.

  • Abbot

    “You can find such repellent women in other parts of the world too but it seems like there’s more of them here.”

    There are enough of them here such that no man over the age of say 30 has not at least one run-in with them. Most guys, a whole bunch, whether personally involving them or just as unfortunate witnesses. It causes men to recoil and duck. Its no way to go through life especially since women are such a tremendous joy and there are so, so many of them, most living in places with tropical beaches.

  • Bells

    @Jesse,
    Oh my gosh, I just realized that this sentence sounded so wrong!: “There are some occasions in which they’ve seen me dressed up in a sexy attire”
    I meant to say that there at times that I’m dressed really well and I just happen to randomly meet one of them. Not that I dress to exclusively show off for these two grandfatherly men.

    Darn. I have to evaluate my sentence structures more carefully next time.

    And noo I’m not hanging out in the wrong places :P

  • Jesse

    Whatever you say. ;-)

  • Rita Anita

    ” If that never comes to fruition, I may look elsewhere. My eye would be set on Italy. My mother was stationed in the military there for awhile, and she told me how much Italian men love black women.”

    Is that fetishization? Or exotification? Could be un-pc and problematic. I do know a few Italian-African couples. The further south you go, the hotter the men. ;)

  • Rita Anita

    Womanoid, “Heaven’s forbid a Northern European man try to treat a woman like a lady, she’ll bark at him. The dudes just want a sweet lady who’ll take care of them and who’s ok with their weird fetishes.”

    Dare I ask what these “weird fetishes” of Northern European men are?

  • Lokland

    @Ana, Hope

    “My husband is probably the “nicest” of all the guys I’ve met. He has a genuinely good heart and is compassionate, kind and loving. I fell in love big time because of that. I don’t think I am alone. There are probably millions upon millions of women who would fall in love with a man like him, all around the world. But they are not so lucky…
    Cosign that. Hubby is the best man I have ever know and I love him for that. And I feel blessed that such a gentle soul loves me too. ”

    I find trying to mentally picture my beta traits being valued over a long period of time an impossibility when it involves a women from North America. (tbh, I find mentally picturing a lifelong marriage an impossibility.)

    I have no such troubles when picturing my wife being happy with those traits.

    @Jesse

    “I have no problem with chasing or preferring foreign women, but if that’s your reason it just smacks me of a small man trying to feel big.”

    Two of my buddies and myself (they are doctors, I’m just a meh scientist) are all married/engaged (the last of us has promised his life away) to foreigners.

    We didn’t go specifically chasing them, they just happened to be the ones that were receptive to beta traits and then demonstrated active appreciation of them.

    Plus they were thin.

  • Lokland

    @Abbot

    “Sure, there are wifely women in the States. Its the needle in the haystack. ”

    I wouldn’t go this far. I know quite a few wifely women in both the States and Canada. They tend to be of extremely high value and picked off the market early. (Say met husband by 24ish at the latest.)

  • Lokland

    @HS

    “You can find such repellent women in other parts of the world too but it seems like there’s more of them here.”

    And now I remember why I stopped going to clubs…
    Pretty much any woman that yells in public should be labeled a no-go for marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Pretty much any woman that yells in public should be labeled a no-go for marriage.

      Agreed. Let’s face it, women in shouting matches with one another and men are not interacting with good guy betas. They’re shouting at guys who get into bar fights, their natural SMV counterparts.

  • Lokland

    @Jesse

    “It’s just the impression I get, and I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth to it.”

    Your actually correct.

    You need to think about the price differential though.
    A lot of the things that define a good husband are available in surplus here whereas the alpha traits are in short supply. Hence why alpha traits are selling so well.

    Where my wife is from…well her father had 12 mistresses. Not much in the way of beta traits. Beta traits sell high.

    ——–

    My wife is from a place where all women are thing. She is therefore average if not below average in body type.
    Here she is above average.

    To get the same body type here relative to where she is from is the difference between jumping out of an airplane or the back of a pickup.

    ———-

    This means to purchase her body type via traits in NA…I don’t have the purchasing power here.

    I do there.

    She lacks the purchasing power for beta traits where she is from but can get them quite easily here.

    ————

    She up’s her value here and gets what she wants.
    Dido for me.

    It really is a win-win situation.
    And that is not even incorporating personality traits which are significantly more valuable in a wife (and relatively rarer here.)

  • The Bennetts

    “Sure, there are wifely women in the States. Its the needle in the haystack.”

    He probably means they LOOK more like a haystack then a needle.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “Re 1) Basically, lots of women have reported faking orgasms. It is also convincing enough (eardrums) that most men cannot tell. So maybe women can get in relationships by faking orgasms to make the man happy.”

    This is false.
    Most women in relationships do not fake orgasms. They actually have them.
    Most women in casual sex cop to faking the orgasm.

    “Re 2) I said “if,” which again goes back to the faking scenarios. Also women can be happy with their relatinships without orgasms. It’s not the case for men. There are also reports of women who basically stop sex after having babies.”

    I covered the faking to get into a relationship at the end of my long post.
    I don’t doubt it. I agree.
    Most marriages are not sexless and most married couples rate their sex lives as 5/5 or 4/5. Again where are you drawing this information from?

    “Re 3) Since you define genetic quality that way, it is highly individualized. But take me personally as an example. I did not share heritage with past boyfriends, and there was a high degree of heterozygosity. No orgasmic abilities with them. How should that be explained? Does my husband have even more heterozygosity or something?”

    Of course I define it that way. Genetic value is entirely relative between individuals.
    I was under the impression you had an N=2. Am I incorrect?
    I don’t think I am which means you have a success rate of 50% which is quite high.
    Also, in genetic quality I included multiple traits other than just physical body type and allelic differences. (Basically, genetic quality= everything the person is, including personality traits. For example, how nice your husband is and how highly you value it. Which is very nice to hear btw.)

  • Rita Anita

    “Most women in relationships do not fake orgasms. They actually have them.
    Most women in casual sex cop to faking the orgasm.”

    Makes sense because in a relationship the man actually has the time and interest to explore the body of his partner, listen to her instruct him and practice different ways of getting her off.

  • Abbot

    “Makes sense because in a relationship the man actually has the time and interest to explore the body of his partner, listen to her instruct him and practice different ways of getting her off.”

    Thus

    All casual sex is rape
    -some dead feminist

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    It really is a win-win situation.
    You have a flair to reduce my romanticism to cold hard market realities. But essentially yes. The caveat is that is likely you have the Beta lovers in USA suppressing their real attraction triggers for the sake of The Herd were in my country we don’t have the same kind of gender wars. Also about weight I think most of the rest of the world has the need to walk more and they have the tradition of having breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a peasant. Thus is easier to be slim aside from the fat shaming of course. No woman goes 20 pounds heavier without someone making a snide remark in my culture. Men get their own share of shame around 40 pounds overweight so yeah easier to keep slim, if the culture helps with it, YMMV.

  • J

    Unfortunately, I find that if I do too much of it I get a sort of backlash in the “no good deed goes unpunished” genre. I wrote a post in praise of fathers last Father’s Day and it turned into a really ugly and angry thread, thanks to some rather extreme MRAs who showed up.

    Gosh, it sure did turn ugly. The problem with those guys is you can never be supportive enough to make them happy. Anything less than 1000% is a betrayal to them.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Hope and SW

    Do keep in mind that I have been highlighting the negative aspect of this group…there are positives as well or else I wouldn’t be interacting with them.

    FWIW, tho, I spent this weekend bumming around the internet, grocery shopping, playing guitar, and watching Wreck-It Ralph. I also finally finished Woodward’s book from last year.

    Sassy,

    You are indeed correct that men are probably not into theatre, pottery, and karaoke. However, you might have some luck dating the cast of Glee or something. ;)

  • J

    @Lokland #282

    I’m a North American, born and bred, and I cosign the liking for beta traits. I would call DH “alpha” in his ability to succeed and handle himself in the world, but I couldn’t tolerate the sort of sexual behavior that is called alpha in the sphere-the high N, the cheating, the lack of friendship and support. If by “beta,” people mean doormat, sure no one finds that attractive, but few women really want to be with a man who lacks compassion, a sense of justice, basic manners, common decency, etc.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That’s wonderful, but men with compassion will not hit on women because compassionate men will not want to make her feel uncomfortable, a man with a sense of justice will not hit on a woman because it is unfair to use his privilege to make a sexual advance on her, a man with basic manners will not hit on a woman because we were never really taught the manners of hitting on a woman, a man with common decency would try not to stare at a woman making IOIs because he could be wrong and that would make her feel uncomfortable, etc.

    All of these nice traits are turned as weapons to make us sexually inactive, IE, a doormat. It’s all well and good to talk about that perfect “blend” of beta and alpha, but it isn’t like we can just wake up one morning and say “I SHALL BE THE PERFECT MAN!”

    It takes time and encouragement to develop that blend, and the blend of each man shall be unique and not up to the dictates of the women-folk. In economics we call this path dependence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence
    It means we are the sum total of all our past decisions and you cannot simply export from one man to another man, nor can you expect a perfect finished product, nor can you expect the man you are with not to change.

    Now this seems like common-sense, but, honestly, sometimes the discussions here really do seem to ignore this reality. The first that pops into my mind is the idea that men should never, ever turn “Dark” and pointing out that it is theoretically possible to be good with women without ever turning Dark.

    It’s an important step in the process for some guys, and sometimes it’s a result of learning about women for other guys.

  • J

    Hang in there, Sassy. Yeah, it’s weird and painful now, but it’ll get better.

  • Jolly Rancher

    “That’s wonderful, but men with compassion will not hit on women because compassionate men will not want to make her feel uncomfortable, a man with a sense of justice will not hit on a woman because it is unfair to use his privilege to make a sexual advance on her, a man with basic manners will not hit on a woman because we were never really taught the manners of hitting on a woman, a man with common decency would try not to stare at a woman making IOIs because he could be wrong and that would make her feel uncomfortable, etc.

    All of these nice traits are turned as weapons to make us sexually inactive, IE, a doormat.”

    If this were the case there wouldn’t be so many nice couples out there today dating, engaged, married.

    Obviously compassionate nice guys are getting something done, either introducing themselves to women they meet or those women are introducing themselves and the nice guys are responding. Something is happening because there sure is a lot of nice couples out there.

    How would you explain this?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Plain Jane, stop with all the different handles. You’ve got half a dozen going here. Choose one name and stick with it, it isn’t fair to other readers.

  • Josie88

    @Han

    I would like to talk about the myth of Mr. Nice Guy.

    Case in point, my 72 year old Uncle.

    He thinks of himself as a nice guy, and is very nice. The problem is that he is only nice to my 20-something friends. He is polite to women older than 30, but he has no desires to be any nicer by pursuing them.

    When he gets rejected by my 20-something friends, he complains about how unfair everything is for nice guys in the world.

    Mr. Nice guy rejected my 55 year old friend for being too old. Would one argues that it is feminism fault that my 20-something friends had been brainwash to reject a nice guy just because he is 72?

    Moreover, from my observation of dates and guy friends, they are only nice to girls they are attracted to.

    A friend of my was probably a 5 at best, and constantly pursue or was super nice to 10s. He was able to get 2s – 7, but he wants the best. These girls were super nice to him, but he was a total jerk to them.

    Therefore, I would like to suggest that your arguments are valid but also bias. Guys are super nice to girls they like, girls that are 10 whereas they are jerks to girls beneath a 6.

    Based on my own experience, I came to the conclusion that there are no nice guys. Nice guys are a myth. Jerks are only nice to super hot girls while being jerks to average girls.

  • Josie88

    Thus, the solution is for the Nice guys to start being nice to girls that likes them or nice to average girls instead of being super nice to hot girls.

    The article that you link to is based on a myth, more like an urban legend. It written based on the assumption that every girl is hot and under 30, but had been brainwash to reject the nice guys.

    For every Mr. Nice guy that complains about how girls rejects him for being too nice, I can give you 9 girls that the nice guy was a jerk too because they weren’t hot enough for him

  • Bully

    I’m very curious as to why you talk about niceness and politeness as if they are completely separated from each other.

  • Bully

    Also, what is he doing to the under 6′s that defines him as a jerk?

  • Jolly Rancher

    I read the Atlantic article and this doesn’t make any sense;

    “It’s no wonder that splitting is often young women’s preferred method to make sense of the dizzying array of freedoms before them. A group of people trying to be autonomous and successful at work, and to have love and sex lives in which they express their vulnerability, need, and desire, is groundbreaking and historically unprecedented. Splitting may serve to ease their anxiety temporarily, but only until the desire for a relationship becomes impossible to ignore. ”

    First, “A group of people trying to be autonomous and successful at work, and to have love and sex lives in which they express their vulnerability, need, and desire, is groundbreaking and historically unprecedented. ”

    This is not groundbreaking or historically unprecedented. It has been the norm for men, and for women to, throughout history, if you consider that both men and women have always worked, just not at glamorous “careers”. And they have courted and married and had children throughout their working lives.

    Even if you consider glamorous careers (I count office jobs as glamorous careers here), trying to be successful and autonomous at work and having love lives in which they “express vulnerability, needs and desires” has historically been the NORM for men.

    What has NOT been the norm, for either sex, is having a series of one night stands or casual flings.

    The author of this piece has it twisted.

  • Josie88

    @ Sassy, good luck. You will find love again.

    @ Hope,

    How you met your hubby sounds very cute. At the same time, guys that plays video games are ok but becomes a turn off when it becomes an addiction. Had you ever been a video game date, where you go on a date while he plays video games?

    @Susan

    Have you ever heard of temporary marriages? I read this article about how the middle east responds to men taste for variety by permitting temporary marriages. A man and woman can signed a marriage contract, in which they gets all the benefits of marriage but agree to be married to a certain length of time. After the marriage expire, they can agree to renewal the license.

    This is benefit for the men, but the young virgin would be counsel against a temporary marriage because men only wants a to permanent marry a virgin.

    A man can be marry to a woman for one night or for 100 years. She is his wife, but she can live in her own house and is not restricted by her husband nor is she expected to behave as permanent wife.

    Its like in dating or hook up culture in the USA, except that one is marry to their girlfriend or hook up girls for a certain length of time.

    As for your hook up theory, a lot of average girls hook up in hopes of a relationship wheres a hot girl can commands one at will.

  • Jolly Rancher

    About circumcision, I was watching a documentary and at least one tribe in Africa, if not more, considers it a rite of passage for both girls and boys.

    Also remember that male circumcision in the West was largely practiced amongst non-Jews because it was believed to prevent masturbation.

    I don’t know what excuses people use for it today.

  • Josie88

    @ Bully

    He uses them for sex, take advantages of their kindness, and tires to persuasive them into having threesomes with his guy friends or passed them around to his friends.

    He talks about his conquests to his friends, but complains about how he is super nice to these girls that he likes and they just ignore him.

    Karma finally hits him when he was super nice to this hot girl that was going out with his Alpha male football playing roommate. About 1 1/2 year after they broke up, he found her on facebook and tells her that he wants to be her boyfriend and how he feels about her.

    She ignored him and he was heartbroken. They never went out, she was with his roommate, and never implied nor suggest that she likes him in any manner except being polite to him. He had the nerve to complained about how girls prefers jerks instead of nice guys like him.

  • Jolly Rancher

    “About circumcision, I was watching a documentary and at least one tribe in Africa, if not more, considers it a rite of passage for both girls and boys.”

    What I meant to convey here is that FGM (female genital mutilation) was not performed to prevent orgasm or sexual pleasure in this tribe, but as a rite of passage, that boys also underwent at the same age. The tribe is neither Jewish nor Muslim, but followers of a traditional African religion, while a minority of them are Muslims and Christians, and they all circumcise both the boys and girls.

  • Abbot

    Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Now clinically proven.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.2011.02093.x/full

    .

  • Josie88

    @ Abbot

    Women may be the gatekeeper, but she alone carry the child and has the right to either terminate or carry pregnancy to term.

    A wife or girlfriend that terminates a pregnancy, “destroyed the hope of the father, the memory of his name,the supply of his race, the heir of his family, a citizen intended for the use of the republic.”
    – Pro Cluentio by Cicero

    Whereas the slut or hook up girl that gets decides to carry to term can demand from the father (with state intervention) financial supports.

    After all, “a putative father has no legitimate right and certainly no liberty interest in avoiding financial obligation to his natural child.” (Rivera vs. Minnich)

    Moreover, “in the case of a father seeking to opt out of fatherhood and thereby avoid child support obligations, the child is already in existence and the state therefore has an important interest in providing for his or her support.” (Dubay vs. Wells)

    Last quote, “The theory is that unwed fathers, as a matter
    of reciprocity, should also be given the choice to deny any financial responsibility for the child’s existence. It is a theory so foreign to our legal tradition that it has no “foundation,” no chance of success.” (NE vs. Hedges

  • Esau

    Josie88 at 299: “Based on my own experience, I came to the conclusion that there are no nice guys. Nice guys are a myth. Jerks are only nice to super hot girls while being jerks to average girls.”

    Bully at 302: “Also, what is he doing to the under 6′s that defines him as a jerk?”

    Josie88 at 306: He uses them for sex, take advantages of their kindness, and tires to persuasive them into having threesomes with his guy friends or passed them around to his friends

    Josie, I think you have your terminology confused, or at least your dictionary doesn’t match what is typically in use at HUS. The behavior you describe in 306 is pure cad, pump-em-n-dump-em without caring about the woman’s feelings. This kind of man certainly exists, and will pretend to be nice if it suits him tactically; and then he’ll act like the jerk that he is when he can get away with it. Susan has written loads about how to recognize them and why to avoid them, and the cad is a well-known type here.

    However, as the terms are generally used, including at HUS, the cad and the nice guy are completely different species. The nice guy, almost by definition, is certainly not getting laid left and right and couldn’t even dream of asking for threesomes. So, no, the case you illustrate does not really bear on what is meant by the term “nice guy” at all.

    What I did find a bit striking, though, was that you started with a very general statement at 299

    Based on my own experience, I came to the conclusion that there are no nice guys.

    but by 306 you seem to be talking about one, very specific individual

    He talks about his conquests to his friends, but complains about how he is super nice to these girls that he likes and they just ignore him.

    Karma finally hits him when he was super nice to this hot girl that was going out with his Alpha male football playing roommate.

    Are you really basing your general, world-wide conclusion that “there are no nice guys” on this one particular guy’s behavior? (you can throw in your 72 year old uncle if you like, but that’s hardly relevant to the normal HUS demographic) You wouldn’t be the first commenter! ever to make this kind of extrapolation, but I don’t find it very persuasive or to the point.

  • Abbot

    Here is the transcript of the Jordan Peterson video posted earlier:

    Remember those 50’s hat-sporting fathers who stayed married, supported their families and repressed women? Well, they’re headed for extinction. In the majority of US cities, young woman are now higher-paid and more educated than their male counterpart. This has not stopped the Globe and Mail’s Margaret Wente from recently warning us about the dangerous male energy still remaining. Men with less testosterone “are nicer, more social and less aggressive,” she says. Such men won’t, quote unquote, “wreck the world.” At this point, Wente should know that it’s the testosterone-laden man who is most attractive when women are fertile. When it comes to the serious business of sex, women will choose a testosterone-charged world-wrecker most of the time.

    What, then, is a sensible girl to do? Ms. Kate Bolick provides some answers, in the cover story of November’s The Atlantic. Bolick, with “too many ex-boyfriends to count,” is still unmarried at 39. 11 years ago, however, she ended a long-term relationship with Allan, who was “exceptional, intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind.” “Something was missing,” Bolick says. Had she asked me, I would have said not enough testosterone. Perhaps it’s time for her to find a tame, lower-status boy, and make an honest man out of him. Some of Bolick’s more savvy friends have done just that, establishing relationships, for example, with salary-challenged males. Some even stooped low enough to date men who are short! This level of compromise is not for Bolick, who flirts with life in an all-female Dutch community, instead of settling for a less-than-perfect mate. She concludes that Western culture itself is at fault for making her desire a conventional relationship, in the first place.

    Just what kind of man is emerging to replace the chauvinists of yesterday? Type 1, let’s call him – very popular in Japan – is shiftless, dependent, and low in status. He poses no threat to women, however, displaying little interest in them altogether, except when animated, infantilized, and available for kissing practice, on a portable Nintendo. Type 2 man is the archetypal bad boy: impulsive and exploitative – but willing to bed anyone he doesn’t have to take responsibility for. He’s the perfect mate for the modern single mother – if she wants a different father for every child. Type 2 man makes 50’s Dad positively look Christ- like.

    Here’s a thought: What if, two decades down the road, women do all the work: all the engineering, all the ditch-digging and fire-fighting – and raise the children, too? It’s not impossible. Such a state is already normal in several American sub-communities, hard hit by the economic demise of modern man. What if it took centuries of cultural discipline to produce 50’s Dad? What if the husband willing to stick around and share his income was the historical exception? It’s a demanding job to support a family, after all, and it’s not necessary to stay with one woman. Maybe men just won’t do it unless they are provided with status to bolster their fragile male egos – or to encourage desirable behaviour. Without respect, why would they try, when the alternative is so much easier, and subtly promoted?

    Increasingly, among my students, I see young men who don’t know how to be good men. My son wasn’t allowed to throw a snowball, for example, in elementary school. It was against the rules for him to even pick up snow off the ground. It is in that manner that decent boys are made to feel guilty about their masculine impulses. So, they withdraw, confused. The more aggressive, psychopathic boys? They simply don’t care. So they’ll be the ones fathering your grandchildren, in the future – if tomorrow’s woman can find a man to sleep with at all. That’ll keep the testosterone flowing.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jesse 272

    I’m getting out of my depth here, but preferring foreign women ‘because they’re more feminine’ just means to me that whoever says that is not man enough to handle women here. I’m not suggesting there aren’t bitches in North America, but if you need some dainty little Thai 24 year-old to feel manly… then I’m guessing you ain’t manly.

    Experience has shown me that a woman who accuses a man of “not being man enough to handle her” is most likely narcissistic, entitled, immature, and possibly abusive. Especially if she follows that up with insults intended to damage a man’s self worth, which is by definition an abusive behavior.

    Here’s the thing – good people (women and men) don’t need to be “handled”, because they handle themselves. They have good emotional self control, don’t make unreasonable demands on other people, are empathetic and don’t always think of themselves first. It’s a pleasure to associate with a good woman, not a burden to be “handled”.

    I don’t know you well enough to judge you based on one passing comment. Maybe this doesn’t reflect you well. But maybe you should take a look in the mirror anyway.

  • Ted D

    “Here’s the thing – good people (women and men) don’t need to be “handled”, because they handle themselves. They have good emotional self control, don’t make unreasonable demands on other people, are empathetic and don’t always think of themselves first. It’s a pleasure to associate with a good woman, not a burden to be “handled”.”

    This. And I’ll add, that IMO a woman that shit tests hard and often is NOT handling herself and her emotions. Shit tests can be a useful tool for gauging a man’s “backbone”, but tossing them out when bored/lonely/unhaaaaaaaapy is simply relying on someone else (the man) to deal with her emotional issues.

  • angelguy

    “Thus, the solution is for the Nice guys to start being nice to girls that likes them or nice to average girls instead of being super nice to hot girls.”
    @Josie88

    No, the solution is to be KIND and friendly to all girls that are good to you, and not spend time that are unresponsive or rude. Attraction is subjective. Not all average girls are nice, and not all hot girls are rude.
    People are people and should be handled as individuals.

    For every Mr. Nice guy that complains about how girls rejects him for being too nice, I can give you 9 girls that the nice guy was a jerk too because they weren’t hot enough for him”

    @josie88
    That is subjective. How do you know that he was a jerk?
    And how do you know that the girls who reject him, weren’t being jerks themselves? Again, it is all subjective.

    It is tempted to paint every woman or man with a single stereotype.
    So one can’t make generalizations.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “I’m a North American, born and bred, and I cosign the liking for beta traits. ”

    I actually think this is very likely.
    I just don’t have the purchasing power to afford a N. American women whom supplies what I want.

    If you use the descriptor- hot, young, tight and marriageable for what men want.

    Assume that marriageable and young are non-negotiables.

    In NA I have enough purchasing power to get

    chubby, young, tight and marriageable
    or
    cute, young, not tight and less marriageable

    I cannot get a decent deal for my dollar here.

    Whereas my wife would be:

    very pretty (not hot), young, tight and marriageable

    More bang for my buck when shopping in a different country. (Which btw, I do all the time in the States. The cabinets/counters for the house we’re building-exact same ones were like $6000 cheaper in the US. How are you all not sleeping on beds of cash btw?)

  • Underdog

    @Esau #310

    Spot on.

  • angelguy

    “For some ladies it is just money, money, money,” he said. “Getting married has become a business more than love. People want to improve their social status. Sometimes these ladies spend the husband’s money, use it all, then he’s cut out. There are many cases like that.”

    There are many cases like that here in North America too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Abbot

    You do realize that you are commenting on a blog dedicated to American women, written by an American woman who who married an American man? This seems like the wrong place for you to be trumpeting marrying foreign women, don’t you think.

    Honestly, I understand that there are some women in this country who deserve such bad reputations, but it frustrates me when guys come on here merely to denigrate American women altogether and promote marrying foreign women.

    Let me ask you a question Abbot. How much success did you ever have trying to get with American women? Were all of your attempts futile? Are you even from this country?

    No matter what is stated by you, nothing but bitterness and “sour grape” attitude come wafting off the screen. Just because you had no luck attracting and keeping an American woman, does not mean that the entirety of the women in this country are bad or unworthy of marriage.

  • Cooper

    @Susan 112

    That was my weekend! :) :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Whoo hoo! Good for you. I am picturing you grinning like the Cheshire Cat.

  • Abbot

    “the entirety of the women in this country are bad or unworthy of marriage”

    Nothing of this sort has been mentioned. It depends where a man wants to emphasize his efforts. Its a trade off. Stay here and do the work his grandfather never had to do to find a suitable woman or do the work needed to expatriate and be in a place where nearly every woman he meets is suitable.

  • Lokland

    “That was my weekend! ”

    Now that made me smile.

  • mr. wavevector

    “For some ladies it is just money, money, money,” he said. “Getting married has become a business more than love. People want to improve their social status. Sometimes these ladies spend the husband’s money, use it all, then he’s cut out. There are many cases like that.”

    I believe there is a female instinct to exploit men by appropriating their resources and labor. Let’s call it “female resource appropriation”. One can observe this behavior in women of all cultures. This is not a necessarily a bad thing and it is probably a necessary thing – women with children need support and resources from men.

    What makes it good or bad is how it’s done. The example here shows the bad side; the exploitation of men through “divorce theft”. This is no longer a Western phenomenon. Western legal concepts of divorce have spread around the world, empowering unprincipled women to exploit their husbands for labor and resources – not only during the marriage, but afterwards as well, through enforced alimony and child support. On the other hand, a good wife also exploits her husband’s resources and labor, but gives him a fair return for what she takes.

    The root of our problems is this: we have lost the idea that civilization requires restrictions on our behavior to regulate certain aspects of human nature. All these things we discuss here – female hypergamy, female resource appropriation, male appetite for variety, male sexual exploitation of women – were considered vices that society should contain.

    Today, we regard individual autonomy as the highest good, and societal construct that infringes on it must be eliminated. So the Pandora’s box of primitive human instincts has been unleashed again upon a confused society.

    It will be interesting to see if a future generation decides that all this autonomy wasn’t worth the cost and re-discovers why these behaviors were regulated for much of human history.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Today, we regard individual autonomy as the highest good, and societal construct that infringes on it must be eliminated. So the Pandora’s box of primitive human instincts has been unleashed again upon a confused society.

      Yes, you and Escoffier are very much on the same page here, and I agree with you. It’s a race to the lowest common denominator. If alphas get casual sex, let’s make sure everyone can! If beautiful women can get male 9s, we have a way that less attractive women can sample those goods too!

      The result is that we’re rutting like barnyard animals. That is not civilized.

      It will be interesting to see if a future generation decides that all this autonomy wasn’t worth the cost and re-discovers why these behaviors were regulated for much of human history.

      I don’t know if they’ll decide this or have it thrust upon them, but I have little doubt that there will be a backlash, and a big one. The pendulum always swings back.

  • Ted D

    Lowland – our taxes are ridiculous. Not including sales tax, I see about 25% to 30% of my gross income pulled from my check before I get it. Add in the numerous local taxes, school taxes, and other odds and ends and easily 40-45% of my income goes to supporting our far too large government.

    And I wouldn’t even mind the taxes if the money was spent wisely.

  • Ted D

    Gah! That’s was to Lokland…

  • Sassy6519

    Does this mean that Cooper lost his V-card to his new girlfriend? Yay! Let’s give the boy a round of applause! :)

    And to think, he didn’t even have to leave the country to do it. An American woman was actually willing to have sex with a U.S “Beta” male. Oh the irony!!

    *Shocker*

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “nd to think, he didn’t even have to leave the country to do it. An American woman was actually willing to have sex with a U.S “Beta” male. Oh the irony!!”

    Facepalm…

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    Sales tax in Canada ranges from 8-9% up to 23% depending on province.
    Income tax tends to be more as well, those ours is a touch more logical than the American system. (Ex. If you make 100k, you pay income tax based on different brackets, so the first 40k is charged X%, the 40k to 60k is charged another higher rate and so on up you go. I’m not exactly sure on the brackets or amounts, lawyer does that for me.)

    Overall the cost of living is higher here as well as the tax rates. Part of that is the healthcare though which you guys pay direct.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Plain Jane, stop with all the different handles. You’ve got half a dozen going here. Choose one name and stick with it, it isn’t fair to other readers.”

    You just banned her. Why welcome her back?

    Oh, and I’m not buying the septuagenarian hitting on coed thing. Either a story, or the dumbest man in existence if he actually expects it to work.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You just banned her. Why welcome her back?

      I can ban people via words, names, or IP address. PJ has a workaround for all three. As soon as I ban her, she pops up again in a different guise. It seems easier to delete any comment I don’t approve. If I have to I’ll send every one of her comments to spam, but that method doesn’t work so well when I take time off, like I did this weekend.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    The conversation on female genital mutilation is just one example. Other examples are sex trafficking and foot binding. I grew up hearing about these as a young girl in China. I knew elderly women whose feet were bound.

    My understanding is that female genital mutilation and foot binding are practices mostly performed by women on girls – often by mothers on their daughters. While the motivations for this type of behavior are complex, intra-sexual competition between women for male attention plays a large role.

    The modern equivalent of foot binding are the ridiculous high heeled shoes that women wear to effect an exaggerated feminity . At least women are doing that to themselves.

  • OffTheCuff

    But, I thought Cooper was Canadian, Sassy? That’s TOTALLY different.

    Kidding. ;)

    Either way, CONGRATS COOPER! Your biggest obstacle is now gone. Go forth and be awesome.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The pendulum always swings back.”

    Actually, there are quite a few historic examples of the pendulum swinging off the clock, crashing and the world entering a dark age.

    Not to make a thunder cloud :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Actually, there are quite a few historic examples of the pendulum swinging off the clock, crashing and the world entering a dark age.

      Indeed. Sometimes I think we’ll end up with a world as described in your countrywoman’s novel The Handmaid’s Tale. Female sexuality become completely controlled by the state.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Why are you facepalming that statement? Cooper admits to being “beta”, yet was able to get a girlfriend and lost his virginity. I’m happy for him. I really am. The snark was directed towards Abbot, if you couldn’t tell. In Abbot’s view, Cooper just did the impossible. I’m not sure what your qualm is with what I’ve said.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    Coops Canadian.
    Your very blatant GO USA was just really in a funny spot :P

    I don’t really care about the foreign vs native thing. Theres pleasant women everywhere to one degree or another. The only difference is how much they cost.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Indeed. Sometimes I think we’ll end up with a world as described in your countrywoman’s novel The Handmaid’s Tale”

    Ughh. I hated her stuff when I read it. All of it (except for one about a lake, that as good.)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Female sexuality become completely controlled by the state.”

    As for this.

    What if it became a necessity for the continuance of civilization?
    Women became so feral or disenfranchised with the men who build stable civilization that the only possibilities are control of their reproduction or dark ages?

    (And I think you would agree that though we are not actually there we are markedly closer than we were say 100 years ago.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      What if it became a necessity for the continuance of civilization?
      Women became so feral or disenfranchised with the men who build stable civilization that the only possibilities are control of their reproduction or dark ages?

      (And I think you would agree that though we are not actually there we are markedly closer than we were say 100 years ago.)

      Yes, we are closer, but it’s hard to imagine that dystopian nightmare. P.D. James also wrote a book about this – The Children of Men. Everyone seeks to capture and control the last remaining fertile woman. In Handmaid’s Tale, women can’t have children any more so they act like mothers to dolls.

      I have no doubt that such behaviors would become commonplace if the survival of the species was at stake.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    Sometimes I think we’ll end up with a world as described in your countrywoman’s novel The Handmaid’s Tale. Female sexuality become completely controlled by the state.

    Hardly. That was a bit hysterical and a lot not based in history.

    A more realistic portrayal is probably what you see in Lucifer’s Hammer. After the comet hits, the protagonist accidentally comes across his teenage son. He’s stunned by how quickly the boy became a man, grimly determined to protect his mate.

    That’s the kind of priorities we’d see if civilization collapses – pairing and protection together to save a family.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      I haven’t read Lucifer’s Hammer – do you recommend it?

      That’s the kind of priorities we’d see if civilization collapses – pairing and protection together to save a family.

      Yes, that makes more sense. It would be every man for himself and his kin.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Sassay6519,

    Honestly, I understand that there are some women in this country who deserve such bad reputations, but it frustrates me when guys come on here merely to denigrate American women altogether and promote marrying foreign women.

    That’s understandable. The advocacy for foreign wives is often used as a tactic to undermine American women – both in their sexual market value as well as their sense of self-worth. However, American women have been doing that to men, and worse, for decades: all men are pigs, dogs, oppressors, rapists. Perhaps you can understand that some men take that sort of thing personally?

    I know a couple of guys with foreign wives. They went overseas because they are both very short. It made sense for them to look for a wife in a country where the average male height is much lower than in the U.S.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However, American women have been doing that to men, and worse, for decades: all men are pigs, dogs, oppressors, rapists.

      This is an example of overgeneralizing, IMO. I wonder what percentage of women you would say would have endorsed this statement, even at the height of The Women’s Movement. This is the mindset of an extremely small portion of American women. I personally have never met a single woman who voiced this belief. I have read a few essays by nutjobs over the years that expressed this.

      Radfems are outliers. Even most women who identify as feminists would not endorse this view.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Oh, Cooper is Canadian. Whoops! My bad. I was mistaken, and I totally deserved that facepalm.

  • Sassy6519

    @ mr. wavevector

    I totally get that some women in this country have expressed such sentiments, but the women on this site are not a part of that cohort. We are actually sympathetic towards the concerns of men, and we don’t denigrate American men with such comments.

    The men that make such statements here are engaging in friendly fire.

  • mr. wavevector

    Actually, there are quite a few historic examples of the pendulum swinging off the clock, crashing and the world entering a dark age.

    Civilizations rise and fall, but life goes on. Perhaps a dark age would do us some good.

    Sometimes I think we’ll end up with a world as described in your countrywoman’s novel The Handmaid’s Tale.

    That’s the kind of priorities we’d see if civilization collapses – pairing and protection together to save a family.

    Either way, the collapse of civilization would put a quick end to feminism, which depends on prosperity and security for its existence. People would have much more pressing concerns.

    For example, I found it amusing that the writers of Battlestar Galactica imagined the remnants of the human species clinging to their feminist ideologies. A surviving population of only 38,000 people would need women to be making babies, not being fighter pilots.

    They would also need to learn how to farm and how to make primitive tools from stone, wood, and raw metal ores. 38,000 people is not enough to sustain advanced technology.

  • Joe

    Sassy – What?

    Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.

    Um, you’ve been engaging in a little “friendly fire” of your own, you know. What you wrote only a couple of days ago isn’t exactly warm, fuzzy and understanding.

  • mr. wavevector

    The men that make such statements here are engaging in friendly fire.

    Well said.

  • INTJ

    @ Josie88

    He uses them for sex, take advantages of their kindness, and tires to persuasive them into having threesomes with his guy friends or passed them around to his friends.

    He talks about his conquests to his friends, but complains about how he is super nice to these girls that he likes and they just ignore him.

    Karma finally hits him when he was super nice to this hot girl that was going out with his Alpha male football playing roommate. About 1 1/2 year after they broke up, he found her on facebook and tells her that he wants to be her boyfriend and how he feels about her.

    She ignored him and he was heartbroken. They never went out, she was with his roommate, and never implied nor suggest that she likes him in any manner except being polite to him. He had the nerve to complained about how girls prefers jerks instead of nice guys like him.

    That isn’t a beta. That’s an ugly alpha.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, you are a good guy despite your trying not to be. And yes those traits are appreciated even if you think they aren’t. :P Also, you care a lot more about female orgasms than men in other cultures who want to take away female choice of gene quality, i.e. arranged marriages, etc. If history has shown anything, it is the paradox of choice…

    Josie, yeah those guys exist, but if they act that way, it serves as a good filter. I didn’t go on dates much, and I did hang out with guys and just played video games. Probably 70%+ of guys of our generation play, and it’s gone way mainstream now.

    mr. wavevector, I understand that, but in those places men would not marry a woman who didn’t have it done. I suppose the mothers and female relatives just want their kids to have a good future. Honor killings are also usually done by relatives. I don’t think just because a horrible thing is done by one’s relatives or oneself necessarily means it’s justified.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy

    And to think, he didn’t even have to leave the country to do it. An American woman was actually willing to have sex with a U.S “Beta” male. Oh the irony!!

    Someone’s looking for a needle in a straw man.

    Also, pretty sure she was Canadian.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    Way to go!

  • INTJ

    @ mr. wavevector

    They would also need to learn how to farm and how to make primitive tools from stone, wood, and raw metal ores. 38,000 people is not enough to sustain advanced technology.

    I partially disagree here. Depending on the information storing capacity of the Battlestar Galactica, they could have access to the collective knowledge of billions of people, which would be enough to sustain limited advanced technology.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    mr. wavevector, I understand that, but in those places men would not marry a woman who didn’t have it done.

    True, but that may be the effect of the behavior, not the cause. If most women do something to compete for male attention, men will expect it, to the disadvantage to those women who don’t participate. This results in a collective hyper-sexualization of women in that society.

    The opposite occurs too – women adopt conservative garb and behaviors to reduce intra-sexual competition, and punish those who don’t comply. You end up with Victorian floor length dresses, prairie dresses and bonnets, and burqas that way.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    There is another problem on the horizon :

    CHICAGOÂ – Once there was a kids’ hockey team on the reservation of the Aamjiwnaang First Nation in Canada just across the border from Michigan.

    No longer. There aren’t enough boys.

    This community, surrounded by dozens of pollution-spewing chemical plants, is an especially extreme example of a puzzling phenomenon playing out across the world, in countries as diverse as the United States, Sweden and Japan.

    (later)

    Still, there is no proof that pollution is responsible, and data from surrounding Lambton County don’t show a similar impact. The findings represent a “short period of time and a small population” and require further study, said Dean Edwardson, general manager of the Sarnia-Lambton Environmental Association, which represents area industry.

    Experts note that other factors might include diet, alcohol use, smoking and occupational exposures.

    (later)

    When a July 1976 chemical plant explosion in Seveso, Italy sent a cloud of dioxin over the area, researchers discovered that no boys were born for seven years to parents who had the highest levels of the toxin in their blood.

    In another study, men exposed to the pesticide dibromochloropropane fathered three times as many daughters as expected.

    (later)

    When pregnant women struggle with adverse circumstances _ economic hardship, poor food supply _ a biological mechanism that “culls” weak male fetuses may be inadvertently deployed, said Ralph Catalano, a professor of public health at the University of California, Berkeley.

    From an evolutionary standpoint, this would make sense, since boys require more parental effort to raise while also dying at a higher rate, Catalano explained. When times are tough, it’s more advantageous to give birth to a girl, he said.

    Among Catalano’s thought-provoking findings: The number of boys born in New York City relative to girls fell significantly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    That result, reported in 2006 in the journal Human Reproduction, applied primarily to women in their second trimester at the time of the attacks. In the paper, Catalano suggests that “fetal response to maternal stressors appears strongest in the second half of gestation” and “mothers may use that response as a test of male fetal robustness.”

    (later)

    James observed that women who conceive early or late in their fertile periods are more likely to have boys. Couples who have lots of sex have a higher probability of bearing sons, he concluded, because they’re more likely to conceive early on, he concluded.

    This ties in to the stress hypothesis: If adults have less sex when enduring adversity, then they’d be less likely to conceive male children.

    There is something going on :

    “The pattern of decline in the ratio of male to female births remains largely unexplained,” said Devra Lee Davis, Ph.D., M.P.H., lead investigator of the study, director of the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute’s Center for Environmental Oncology and professor of epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health.

    “We know that men who work with some solvents, metals and pesticides father fewer baby boys. We also know that nutritional factors, physical health and chemical exposures of pregnant women affect their ability to have children and the health of their offspring.

    We suspect that some combination of these factors, along with older age of parents, may account for decreasing male births.”

  • Ted D

    Lokland – it costs me approx 1000 dollars a month to carry health insurance for my family. Of course that’s after my employer kicks in their share. And, I still have copays for every single visit.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    mr. wavevector, it’s not just intrasexual competition. Men are not passive in this. Just as important would be the dual male desire for variety/plentiful sex and chastity/fidelity. Both men and women participate in this. Have you heard of the case where a Mormon girl was handed a note by a guy stating her outfit was not appropriate for the BYU code?

    As an aside, in less advanced societies, women do perform a lot of heavy lifting. For example, in African and Asian villages without running water and sewage systems, women haul water to and from the wells. Farming is considered women’s work in many of these places, as well as obviously childrearing. I think as technologies improve, women often become less industrious, which could result in negative character.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      mr. wavevector, it’s not just intrasexual competition. Men are not passive in this.

      A Muslim woman with a clitoris is not marriageable in many cultures. Women perform genital mutilation in order to meet male requirements.

  • Iggles

    @ mr. wavevector:

    For example, I found it amusing that the writers of Battlestar Galactica imagined the remnants of the human species clinging to their feminist ideologies. A surviving population of only 38,000 people would need women to be making babies, not being fighter pilots.

    No, they needed every last fighter pilot they had. It takes years of training to be capable of holding your own in the firefight. They were getting attacked daily by the Cylons, an enemy who wanted to completely wipeout the human race. Immediate safety and survival comes first — even before gender roles.

    Besides, some of those female pilots had babies. I don’t see why you think it would be more “realistic” to force trained soldiers back into the kitchen when every man, woman, or child who had a usable skill needed to do their part to the best of their ability.

    Cooper – I can be pretty slow to the uptake at times.. Not sure how comment #312 coincides with the implied meaning Lokland and Sassy picked up on. In any event, glad to hear things are going well with you girlfriend :)

  • mr. wavevector

    “I partially disagree here. Depending on the information storing capacity of the Battlestar Galactica, they could have access to the collective knowledge of billions of people, which would be enough to sustain limited advanced technology.”

    The information isn’t the thing, it’s having enough people available to learn it and to do it. The technological society in BSG is still very labor intensive – people are needed to build, operate, and maintain the machines. (Self replicating machines like the Cylons are a different story). To maintain their technology, they would have to be able to maintain all the skills, technology and equipment in the entire supply chain all the way back to raw materials.

    Let’s take this blog as an example. A society that could maintain HUS would need to build computers, among other things. Now look at the computer I’m using. It has thousands of specialized components and required thousands of specialized machines, materials, and technologies to produce it. Each of those components required in turn thousands of specialized machines, materials, and technology to produce it, and each of those the same, ad infinitum. And hundreds and thousands of people would be required at each stage, and each of those would rely on many more people for various supplies and services.

    I’ve spent a long time studying and working in the high tech industry and have acquired a sense of the enormous scope of technology and services needed to make it work. For example, if you traced the complete supply chain necessary to turn sand, rocks and crude oil into my PC, I think that you would encounter in the order of 100 million people along the way. And that’s just one item in the technology infrastructure that’s needed to keep HUS in business!

    I don’t think 38,000 people would have the skills and size of economy to maintain a steam-engine based early industrial revolution technology, let alone interstellar travel.

    Here’s my conjectural population vs technology relationship:

    <10^3: stone age technology
    10^4: iron age technology (iron and steel tools)
    10^5: early industrial (water wheels powered looms, etc)
    10^6: steam power industrial
    10^7: internal combustion, electrification
    10^8: discrete component electronics
    10^9: integrated circuits, microprocessors

    I read about one guy (an artist) who's project was to try to make a simple electrical appliance – a toaster – starting with raw materials (rocks, oil, plants etc.) He thought it would take a year. It's turning out to be a lifetime project. The number of different steps needed to turn rocks into a toaster turns out to be enormous.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Iggles,

    No, they needed every last fighter pilot they had. It takes years of training to be capable of holding your own in the firefight. They were getting attacked daily by the Cylons, an enemy who wanted to completely wipeout the human race. Immediate safety and survival comes first — even before gender roles.

    I wasn’t thinking of the ones that were already trained, like Starbuck. I was thinking of the new recruits. The survival of the human race required both the ability to defend themselves and the ability to replace their declining population.

    As we observe throughout the world today, the best way to deter women from reproducing is to educate and employ them. That’s a good thing in a population of 7 billion. Probably not so good with 38,000.

  • HanSolo

    Speaking of sci-fi, Star Wars episode VII is supposed to come out in 2015, with the original cast likely involved as older versions of their characters.

    Disney bought Star Wars. Hopefully this new trilogy is better than the most recent one and reaches the quality level of Empire Strikes Back.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    mr. wavevector, it’s not just intrasexual competition. Men are not passive in this. Just as important would be the dual male desire for variety/plentiful sex and chastity/fidelity.

    I agree. I wasn’t implying that female intrasexual competition was the only driver, just an important one.

    As an aside, in less advanced societies, women do perform a lot of heavy lifting. For example, in African and Asian villages without running water and sewage systems, women haul water to and from the wells. Farming is considered women’s work in many of these places, as well as obviously childrearing.

    Very true. Men in some less developed societies often do as little work as they can get away with. Why work when you can get women to do it?

    That same male attitude is rapidly becoming more common in some segments of modern society.

    What most people don’t appreciate is that the hardworking provider male is a largely a creation of “patriarchy”. Patriarchal societies demand that men be economically productive and provide for their families. The ability to protect and provide is the key component of male identity in a patriarchal society, and there is a whole system of rewards and punishment to motivate it. This isn’t natural, inevitable behavior – it takes a lot of social engineering to keep every man’s nose to the grindstone for the benefit of others instead of hanging with the bros, womanizing and drinking.

  • INTJ

    @ Marellus

    Interesting articles. I’m curious how they factored in sex-selective abortion though. Though most Western parents don’t practice sex-selective abortion, the very small fraction that do usually prefer female offspring.

  • mr. wavevector

    This is an example of overgeneralizing, IMO.

    True, and I knew that as I wrote it. The reason I wrote it anyway is that many women are influenced by these attitudes, if only subconsciously. I suspect that nearly all women in our society have been influenced by them. (It’s hard not to be – such negative attitudes towards men are pervasive in the media.) So even those women who don’t explicitly say such things still manifest some of the distrust and hostility that these statements were intended to produce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The reason I wrote it anyway is that many women are influenced by these attitudes, if only subconsciously. I suspect that nearly all women in our society have been influenced by them.

      Fair enough, my new post addresses this very phenomenon, so I’m sure you’re right!

  • Ted D

    Susan – I grew up hearing about how most men were pigs/wanted nothing more than sex. Followed by:”don’t be like them!” And my family are far from extreme feminists.

    Maybe its another SES thing. When a woman is surrounded by cads, the world seems to be full of them?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    When a woman is ATTRACTED TO cads, the world seems to be full of them?

    *Fixed

  • INTJ

    @ mr wavevector

    I don’t think 38,000 people would have the skills and size of economy to maintain a steam-engine based early industrial revolution technology, let alone interstellar travel.

    Here’s my conjectural population vs technology relationship:

    <10^3: stone age technology
    10^4: iron age technology (iron and steel tools)
    10^5: early industrial (water wheels powered looms, etc)
    10^6: steam power industrial
    10^7: internal combustion, electrification
    10^8: discrete component electronics
    10^9: integrated circuits, microprocessors

    I read about one guy (an artist) who's project was to try to make a simple electrical appliance – a toaster – starting with raw materials (rocks, oil, plants etc.) He thought it would take a year. It's turning out to be a lifetime project. The number of different steps needed to turn rocks into a toaster turns out to be enormous.

    I guess we’re disagreeing on what we define as “advanced technology”. Personally, I see anything after stone age as “advanced”.

    Here’s the relationship I’d suggest though:

    10: stone age technology
    10^3: iron age technology (iron and steel tools)
    10^4: early industrial (water wheels powered looms, etc)
    10^6: steam power industrial
    10^7: internal combustion, electrification
    10^7: discrete component electronics
    10^9: integrated circuits, microprocessors

    Mainly, I don’t think pre-industrial technology is all that hard – it requires a knowledge-base more than it needs an infrastructure base.

  • mr. wavevector

    A Muslim woman with a clitoris is not marriageable in many cultures. Women perform genital mutilation in order to meet male requirements.

    These “male requirements” can result when a competitive female behavior becomes universally adopted by all females in the group. Once all the girls have it, a man wants a wife who has it too.

    I haven’t studied the origin of FGM, so I won’t speculate on that, but I have researched the origin of foot binding. It appears to have started as a way to help marry daughters to high-ranking men by making their feet seem smaller and their gait more feminine. Those are the exact same reasons women wear high-heeled shoes today. While this behavior exploited and responded to male sexual preferences, it was the women, not the men, who initiated it. But after it became common, the runaway pressure of intrasexual competition among women (getting the rich husband) and men (getting the fashionable wife) made it a necessity.

    More benign examples today are the nearly universal female practices of shaving legs and armpits, as well as the more recent trend for genital shaving and waxing. Look at the Brazilian wax. It was invented by women and popularized by women. Now a lot of young men won’t have sex with a girl with pubic hair. But the male preference is the result, not the cause.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Look at the Brazilian wax. It was invented by women and popularized by women.

      It may have been invented by women, but it has been popularized in the U.S. by porn. Which gets us back to male preference. Perhaps this is a chicken or egg question. If not, then it sounds like you are saying that women can and do control male sexual attraction triggers.

  • mr. wavevector

    @INTJ,

    Mainly, I don’t think pre-industrial technology is all that hard – it requires a knowledge-base more than it needs an infrastructure base.

    You may be right. It may depend on the technology and local resources. I’ve read that bronze age technology required some rather sophisticated mining technology and trade over a wide geographical area to get the necessary ores. On the other hand, I saw a documentary where a guy was recreating Viking technology, and he made a steel sword by himself starting with some iron-rich clay and wood.

  • J

    Muslim woman with a clitoris is not marriageable in many cultures. Women perform genital mutilation in order to meet male requirements.

    There is a lot of fear and superstition regarding clitorises in some Muslim countries. Many people won’t food prepared by a woman with a clitoris; they view the food as unclean. Others think the clitoris will develop into a penis if not removed or will somehow harm a developing baby if such a woman somehow gets pregnant. Intact girls are sometimes ostracized. There is no place for an unmutilated woman in these countries, not even as a maiden aunt. She ritually pollutes the whole household with her presence. For a woman to not “circumcize” her daughter is to make that child outcast, not merely unmarriageable. What mother is going to that? Especially without her husband’s support?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    mr. wavevector, my point is more about the theory that men primally want female orgasms, as this preference seems to be more culturally shaped.

    As to its origins, it’s still purely speculative. According to Wikipedia:

    The first reported
    clitoridectomy in the West was carried out in 1822 by a
    surgeon in Berlin on a teenage girl regarded as an
    “imbecile” who was masturbating. [31][32] Isaac Baker
    Brown (1812–1873), an English gynaecologist who was
    president of the Medical Society of London in 1865,
    believed that the “unnatural irritation” of the clitoris
    caused epilepsy, hysteria, and mania, and would remove
    it “whenever he had the opportunity of doing so,”
    according to an obituary.

    And here’s another article:

    http://news.discovery.com/human/female-genital-mutilation-begin-121210.htm

  • mr. wavevector

    Perhaps this is a chicken or egg question. If not, then it sounds like you are saying that women can and do control male sexual attraction triggers.

    Its both chicken and egg – it’s totally iterative. If men didn’t respond favorably to these female practices they would have gone nowhere. So I’m not denying the importance of male involvement. I’m trying to correct the common mis-characterization that these female behaviors are one-sided male impositions instead of an iterative process where both women and men play an active role.

    The role of female agency in forming gender roles is very under-appreciated. I suspect even the much maligned “patriarchy” was heavily influenced by female interests – a social system that coerced men into protector/provider roles might have been very appealing to women once upon a time.

    And wasn’t it Sex and The City that broke Brazilian waxing into the mainstream?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m trying to correct the common mis-characterization that these female behaviors are one-sided male impositions instead of an iterative process where both women and men play an active role.

      OK, I agree with this – it makes total sense. In fact, third parties have also played a large role. For example, fashion, cosmetics and plastic surgery are all heavily marketed to make women feel insecure about pleasing men, regardless of how straight men actually feel about them.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    INTJ,

    What I know is this :

    1) South Korea has one of the lowest birthrates in the world.
    2) South Korea also has smallest average penis size in the world.
    3) From these articles and related ones, male sexual development is hampered by certain commonly used chemicals.
    4) We know about the drop-off in male births in that First Nation community.
    5) We know it happened after 1990.

    Why not before 1990? They were in “Chemical Ally” for generations ?

    Is it some new chemical (and is it identified) or is this some kind of straw that broke a camel’s back ?

    There is something called a waterfall decline in the stock-market. The stockprice goes sideways to lower for a long time, and then, out of the blue, there is a crash.

    A similar dynamic is prevalent in other systems.

    What I’m fearful of is that this catastrophic decline in male births will spread. And it will be sudden. One year everything will be sort of ok, and then, the poo-poo hits the fan the following year.

    Your guess is as good as mine.

    Feel free to dispute this.

    I want sons one day.

  • Lokland

    @Marellus

    There is a fairly good case that males are become an obsolete part of human biology.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    J, yep. For all the talks extolling virtues of the “patriarchy,” those traditional Muslim cultures exemplify the patriarchy and control women to a very large extent. If the men really wanted to have it differently (i.e. in tact clitorises and orgasmic wives), they for sure could.

    I would also point to the West as a model for how such ideas could arise in men but be quickly shut down by other men. Western men have generally treated their women better and were more ahead globally. I am actually curious as to why this is the case.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The Children of Men. Everyone seeks to capture and control the last remaining fertile woman. In Handmaid’s Tale, women can’t have children any more so they act like mothers to dolls.

    I have no doubt that such behaviors would become commonplace if the survival of the species was at stake.”

    No the survival of the species but the individual. If there were only one fertile woman on the planet men would kill each other until there was only one left standing. (I’d personally sit back and let the alphas tire themselves out first.)

    Only see the Children of Men movie, added it to the reading list.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “Also, you care a lot more about female orgasms than men in other cultures who want to take away female choice of gene quality, i.e. arranged marriages, etc. If history has shown anything, it is the paradox of choice…”

    I care about female orgasm because its inherently good for myself.
    Also, if I wasn’t capable of getting laid I’d likely be in favour of arranged marriage or something that forced a woman here.
    The only other option would be rape.

    In the end, I must have children.

  • Lokland

    @HS

    Star Wars 7, hell yeah I heard about that.

    Now all they need to do to not fuck it up is have a character like your good old fashioned self in there and not an emo twit.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    I haven’t read Lucifer’s Hammer – do you recommend it?

    Absolutely!

    Ultimately, the message is positive and even uplifting, which is surprising to those who think it’s merely a Sci-Fi book about the destruction of civilization. It’s much more thoughtful than that – mature, even.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    mr. wavevector, while it’s tempting to say that women could end those practices but choose to continue them out of their own volition, it has been traditionally men who did the outlawing, then women embraced the change.

    History of footbinding: An emperor ordered a concubine to bind her feet, and the practice spread from there. It was painful, and there were girls who died of the practice. Mao outlawed arranged marriages, footbinding, and also enacted equal status/rights for women. It wasn’t women who did so.

  • HanSolo

    @Hope

    I imagine that Christianity had a big role in men treating women better, as there are the scriptures that the husband is supposed to treat his wife as Christ treated the church and that a husband/father that doesn’t provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Of course, certain aspects of Christianity put women in a subordinate role but they were likely there already.

    Also, I think that Christianity’s emphasis on every person being a child of God and having a soul worth saving helped prepare the cultural ground for democracy much later.

  • HanSolo

    @Hope

    And then the obvious contribution of focusing on loving your neighbor as yourself (not necessarily a new idea but the focus on it certainly helps).

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    HanSolo, yeah I was thinking that, too. Though ancient Greeks, Romans, and pagans in Europe, seemed to have treated their women well even before Christianity.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland

    Well, it looks like Harrison Ford will be in it but unfortunately he’s kind of gone liberal/PC it seems over the years and isn’t the badass he once was, back in the days of Star Wars and Indiana Jones. But maybe he can be good again. I thought he wasn’t that great in the terrible Indiana Jones IV.

    But, hopefully with Lucas having less control now they’ll get some good writers, a good plot and some better actors. Palpatine, Darth Maul and Count Dooku were good dark characters in the new trilogy (Dooku’s a lame name though) but there were few good characters on the light side. Obi Wan sucked as did the older Anakin. I also HATED how the jedi were so easily killed–talk about destroying the illusion that jedi actually had some power and skills, plus it ruined the original storyline of how Vader hunted down the jedi (with some epic light saber battles in my young mind back then).

    Basically, the new trilogy was a disaster and I have a sick feeling in my stomach every time I think about it. Hopefully the new trilogy is better. Also, now that I’m older I think the ewoks were a terrible idea though I liked them as a kid.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That was my weekend!
    ATTABOY! :)

    I can ban people via words, names, or IP address. PJ has a workaround for all three. As soon as I ban her, she pops up again in a different guise. It seems easier to delete any comment I don’t approve. If I have to I’ll send every one of her comments to spam, but that method doesn’t work so well when I take time off, like I did this weekend.

    Can’t you accuse her of cyber harassment? I think she crossed the line from annoying to harmful a long time ago.

    What if it became a necessity for the continuance of civilization?
    Women became so feral or disenfranchised with the men who build stable civilization that the only possibilities are control of their reproduction or dark ages?

    You know this is feminism favorite scare tactic right? ” Civilization was built on female oppression we can do better”
    This is not how females work even in ancient times women have agency and we are cocreators of the civilized world by necessity and convenience. Don’t get the few crazy ones that had taken over the narrative fool you into thinking that women are just too stupid to know what is good for them in the long run please.

    True, but that may be the effect of the behavior, not the cause. If most women do something to compete for male attention, men will expect it, to the disadvantage to those women who don’t participate. This results in a collective hyper-sexualization of women in that society.
    As said above men and women don’t have an isolated existence we are more symbiotic both groups have to let go of certain things to win out in the long run.

    Lucifer’s Hammer

    What is it with sci-fi books and hammers? Hubby has like ten titles all with Hammer in it…I don’t get it. :/

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    my point is more about the theory that men primally want female orgasms, as this preference seems to be more culturally shaped.

    I don’t have any science on that point, but based on personal experience I suspect you’re right. Men are driven to get it in and get off. Everything else is probably driven by expectations and experiences.

    My first girlfriend didn’t have orgasms. I don’t think she ever had one by herself, and she certainly didn’t with me. But she like sex a lot anyway. She liked the attention, affection, and affirmation I gave her, and she said it felt good. She was willing to get naked and let me do as I please whenever I wanted. At the time, being a selfish teenager, I thought this was great! I kind of knew about female orgasms, but since I was getting laid like tile and she wasn’t complaining, I didn’t give it much thought.

    Later, when I encountered women who actually expected something from me, I was a bit nonplussed. You want me to do what?

    Now I’m married to a woman who is very orgasmic. She comes every time, easily and quickly. And that’s so much better. I love that I can do that for her. I love being so attuned to her when we have sex – I listen to her breathing, the noises she makes, I feel her motions, her growing wetness and the tension building insider her; I can almost feel what she’s feeling. I know the position she likes, the movement that turns her on, when to go slow, and when to accelerate, and when she wants me to hold her tightly and to feel my power and to be taken and fucked hard. And then she comes. And I’m so into it that I almost come too, but I don’t, because the best part is next – when she’s all happy and relaxed and yielding in my arms, and as I hold her I fuck her slowly and enjoy her body inside and out, and I think, “this is my woman, my wife, my beloved.” And then, when my arousal is too much, I fuck her hard again. And she comes again, and then I come.

    So, yeah. The female orgasm. I’ve got to say – my appreciation for it has grown with experience!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Goosebumps from Mr. Wavevector’s description! It’s not easy to write a good sex scene, but you’ve done it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Careful Mr. W, you might be accused of exxageration or bragging. I like that I don’t even have to really do anything specific, no thinking, planning, or preparation. It’s automatic, she feels what I feel, and the reverse.

    It’s great, isn’t it?

  • Bells

    @Cooper,
    Congrats on your new breakthrough!

    @Joe,
    Lucifer’s Hammer seems like a really interesting novel. Definitely will add that to my reading list. Thanks for the introduction

    @mr.wavevector. Re: attuned orgasmic wife
    That sounds incredible.

  • Bells

    Goosebumps from Mr. Wavevector’s description! It’s not easy to write a good sex scene, but you’ve done it.

    Glad I wasn’t the only one that got the tingles!
    Very hot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Glad I wasn’t the only one that got the tingles!
      Very hot.

      I would note that he produced the ultimate female fantasy there – great sex with his “beloved” – and it is his love for her that makes the sex great, for both of them. (And undoubtedly her love for him as well.)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Joe

    I actually am very sympathetic towards men in general. That comment, and a majority of my other comments, are directed towards both women and men. I assume that you are relatively new here. You may not have read much of my commentary, but I’ve been brutally harsh towards women as well. Most of my sentiments towards men are directed towards specific individuals, mainly my ex boyfriends. Whenever I talk about men, as a whole, I make sure to specify that only a portion of the entire male population act/think certain ways.

    If I ever felt like saying that men were all bad/worthless/stupid/evil, I would know that I didn’t deserve anyone with that attitude. Spewing such hate and animosity wouldn’t get me anywhere, and I don’t appreciate it when such vitriol is spewed at the women here. Like I said earlier, doing so is friendly fire.

  • INTJ

    @ Bells

    @Cooper
    Congrats on your new breakthrough!

    Pun intended? ;)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OTC and mr. wavevector, here’s the thing. Your wives are lucky to be able to orgasm without anything “extra,” but that doesn’t mean other women are not orgasmic. Especially your first girlfriend, wavevector, as it sounds like you were both young and didn’t know much about these things.

    Note to the girls reading, if you don’t achieve orgasm via P in V sex alone, you are in the *majority.*

    The reason the clitoris is cut off in female genital mutilation is because it’s essential to the female orgasm. Some women are built in such a way that they get sufficient clitoral stimulated during P in V sex. But they are the minority, probably 10-25%. Most women are not built that way. It doesn’t mean that something is wrong with you. In fact it is the case for the majority of women and normal. Don’t buy into the porn/online hype.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201207/so-thats-how-it-feels

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I’ve read that if the clitoris is more than 1 and 1/8 inch from the vaginal opening (true in 80% of cases), no go on the thrusting orgasm. This is the question I’ve been asked by young women more than any other, so I appreciate your pointing out the facts. There are no “better” or “worse” orgasms. Personally, I like my own and am therefore not particularly worried that someone else has it better. Very satisfied is very satisfied, after all.

  • Bells

    @INTJ

    ohhh yeeaaaaah :D

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    Being normal is a bad thing. Being above average is a good thing. Below below average is the worst thing.
    Do not lie to the children.

    Btw, its typically short women that are orgasmic via PinV (one can imagine why).

    Also, as you said, the woman might not just be orgasming with the guy in question.

    Which means he should probably GTFO. The very fact that you mention the ‘with you’ part makes that infinitely clear (a neutral form would have been ‘at all’) because it means the guy is insufficient in some way.

  • Sassy6519

    I get off from P-in-V sex alone, but only in certain positions. Cowgirl and missionary are my favorites. :)

    I’m odd in the sense that I’ve never had an orgasm from oral sex. It feels nice, and it turns me on, but that’s about it. I consider oral to be the build-up before the main event.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, I said “nothing is wrong with you” to the woman, but I wasn’t saying there was anything wrong with the man either. If anything I’m saying this to benefit both the man and the woman.

    No good deed goes unpunished, indeed.

  • Bells

    @Hope. Re: vaginal orgasm

    Have you head of Kegel muscles? I’m not a sex expert by far. But apparently they’re very strongly linked to the ability to have vaginal orgasms. (It’s the muscles that are used to hold back pee.)

    “A study by Graber and Kline-Graber also shows positive correlation between a toned PC muscle and a woman’s sexual response. The stronger the PC contractions, researchers note, the more likely the woman is have an orgasm from vaginal stimulation”

    I accidentally started doing kegel exercises a lot when I was younger because it felt naturally good. Now my kegel muscles are pretty well developed to the point that I can stimulate myself under voluntary control.

    You should try it out! There’s a lot of info on this out there on the internet.

  • Bells

    edit: *PC muscles not kegel muscles

  • OffTheCuff

    I don’t have a huge sample size, perhaps Han could weigh in. From what I understand from the statistics, women are far more likely to orgasm when you mix things up by varying positions and/or stimulation areas. My wife doesn’t need any extra, but it sure is fun.

    If that doesn’t work, use a vibrator at the same time as PV. Piece of cake. Sometimes we do this just for fun.

    She reports that they are two very different sensations that happen simultaneously. I know everyone here will beat on me that “all female orgasms are clitoral”, that’s fine, but she describes two very different depths and types of sensation *depending* on how you get there. (For the record, the same sort of thing happens to me, too, but I don’t want to get too graphic.)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Bells, I’m a kegels pro. :P

  • mr. wavevector

    @ OffTheCuff,

    Exaggerating? No way. That exact scene occurred this morning after the kids left for school and before I went to work.

    Bragging? You betcha ;-)

    @Hope,

    Especially your first girlfriend, wavevector, as it sounds like you were both young and didn’t know much about these things.

    Sure. I was clueless, but I knew what I wanted. She was clueless and didn’t, or at least she never told me. A guy can’t help a woman who can’t (or won’t) tell him what she wants.

    As for the PIV, mrs. wavevector likes it when I position myself so the base of my penis and pubic area is pressing right on her clitoris, and then I grind against her like a mortar and pestle , rather than thrusting in-and-out like a piston and cylinder. That generates the clitoral stimulation she needs. I don’t know if that would work for other women, but I recommend giving it a try!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As for the PIV, mrs. wavevector likes it when I position myself so the base of my penis and pubic area is pressing right on her clitoris, and then I grind against her like a mortar and pestle , rather than thrusting in-and-out like a piston and cylinder. That generates the clitoral stimulation she needs. I don’t know if that would work for other women, but I recommend giving it a try!

      This is the CAT position – Coital Alignment Technique. Many people swear by it.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coital_alignment_technique

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OTC, oh don’t get me wrong, I have no complaints. My husband and I experience some amazing feedback loops. But I don’t want lurkers to get the impression that they’re with the wrong man (genetic compatibility or he’s not alpha or whatever) if they don’t have orgasms with P in V only! That was where this discussion seemed to be headed, and I think that is incorrect.

  • Joe

    @Sassy

    I assume that you are relatively new here. You may not have read much of my commentary, but I’ve been brutally harsh towards women as well.

    No, I’ve been here for over a year, commenting regularly, if not as much as some. I would guestimate something like two or three comments per thread (which don’t often stand out int threads that run 600-800 comments, I know).

    But that makes my point. To you, Alpha Woman ™, I am invisible. Like most people, you not quite able to see yourself from the outside. You think you have been fair (and I recognize that you’ve made the attempt) but you don’t see that you actually failed.

  • Bells

    Hope, I am surprised more and more by you!
    I feel like I have much (sexual information) to learn from you..

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “I said “nothing is wrong with you” to the woman, but I wasn’t saying there was anything wrong with the man either. If anything I’m saying this to benefit both the man and the woman.”

    Thats actually my point.
    What your saying may actually be detrimental to their well being.

    There may actually be something wrong with the pairing.

    Beyond that, I will reiterate my point.

    65% as in 2/3 women had an orgasm last time they had sex in a relationship.
    That was just in one try, not ever in your life, just the last time they had sex.

    I have no idea if your drawing the PinV only argument from me but I never stated that.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Bells, I am a nerd, so I read a lot online about the sciences, including biology. :P

    I also remember random things. For example, turtles can breathe through their butts.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Joe

    @ Joe

    No, I’ve been here for over a year, commenting regularly, if not as much as some. I would guestimate something like two or three comments per thread (which don’t often stand out int threads that run 600-800 comments, I know).

    But that makes my point. To you, Alpha Woman ™, I am invisible. Like most people, you not quite able to see yourself from the outside. You think you have been fair (and I recognize that you’ve made the attempt) but you don’t see that you actually failed.

    I would definitely argue against the belief that I have failed to be sympathetic towards men. I’m not sympathetic towards insecure people, and I’m not sympathetic towards people who refuse to put in the necessary effort to improve themselves. I’m also very blunt, so I come across as more harsh by nature.

    I’d like to know what actions or sentiments, in your mind, constitute a sympathetic attitude towards men. How can a woman convey sympathy towards men in general? I’d like to know so that I can compare my views/sentiments to your list.

    Also, I know that you’ve been commenting for about a year, but many of us have been commenting on this blog for 3-5 years, even more. That’s why I said that you were relatively new, meaning in comparison to me.

  • Bells

    I also read a lot about sex– comes with the territory of being a virgin, I guess.
    But still.. I have some TMI questions to ask.
    How did you achieve 5 O’s in a hour? The most I can do is 2 for now. Did you use a vibrator to get there faster? Where the successive O’s as strong as the first?

  • Bells

    416, @Hope

  • INTJ

    @ OTC

    I don’t have a huge sample size, perhaps Han could weigh in.

    ROFL!

  • SayWhaat

    Congrats again, Coops. ;)

  • Jesse

    Experience has shown me that a woman who accuses a man of “not being man enough to handle her” is most likely narcissistic, entitled, immature, and possibly abusive. Especially if she follows that up with insults intended to damage a man’s self worth, which is by definition an abusive behavior.

    Here’s the thing – good people (women and men) don’t need to be “handled”, because they handle themselves. They have good emotional self control, don’t make unreasonable demands on other people, are empathetic and don’t always think of themselves first. It’s a pleasure to associate with a good woman, not a burden to be “handled”.

    I don’t know you well enough to judge you based on one passing comment. Maybe this doesn’t reflect you well. But maybe you should take a look in the mirror anyway.

    Omigosh, you’re so right! I just put up this bitchy exterior with men I meet because I’m insecure inside and now I’m afraid I’ll never find a man! *tear*

    …just kidding. I think you may have misread me slightly, or not-so-slightly as the case may be.

    Listen, I get what you guys are saying. I’m sure my comment contains some truth but I know it’s just one part of the story. It was very one-sided and did not address the position of Lokland and his friends who have found satisfactory partnerships for themselves (well done Lokland, by the way).

    Are North American women by and large harder to get along with than they used to be? I don’t know. I don’t think it matters where anyone finds their wife, I just have a negative reaction to the subset of (weak) men chasing foreign women because they feel they can push them around more easily. Caveats about feminist multipenis bitches aside, that’s all I’m saying.

    For now I will focus on being less of a ball-crushing bitch with men I meet.

  • Ted D

    Well I have no casual sex to compare with in my past, but all of my LTR experiences were very pleasing for everyone involved. There is no doubt I’ve improved over the years, but even my first LTR mate had orgasms. (In fact I provided her first orgasm!)

    It makes perfect sense to me that relationship sex would be better. (Provided the relationship is solid and on good ground). Both people have an invested interest in pleasing the other, and in fact derive great pleasure in being able to provide such wonderful sensations for them. (Or maybe that’s just how I feel about giving my wife orgasms…) Practice makes perfect, so the longer the relationship the more practice you get. And as noted above each individual session AND the overall sex life of the relationship becomes a positive feedback loop. The more good sex you have, the better you feel about your mate, the more you want to have sex.

    In a casual situation none of this can occur, which often means AT BEST you’ll get off. From recent stats posted here even a fair number of guys don’t manage even that, so I truly can’t see the allure of ONS/casual sex.

    One thing I don’t mind about being such an oddball is I have no sexual regrets in my past. My restricted nature may not be considered “attractive” by many, but I have never suffered a horrible sex experience and I have no regrets at who I shared myself with. It may not be special to another soul on earth, but it still means something to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One thing I don’t mind about being such an oddball is I have no sexual regrets in my past. My restricted nature may not be considered “attractive” by many, but I have never suffered a horrible sex experience and I have no regrets at who I shared myself with. It may not be special to another soul on earth, but it still means something to me.

      RESPECT.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Regarding the CAT technique, I find the concept works at least well in the so-called cow-girl position (provided the woman arches her back sufficiently while doing the grind). Women who have trouble climaxing from PIV should try it.

    Also, it’s funny how men and women are so different regarding what’s hot. Wavevector’s romance novel passage? Meh. The mental image of the lovely Hope getting herself off 5 times in an hour? NOW THAT’S HOT!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Regarding the CAT technique, I find the concept works at least well in the so-called cow-girl position (provided the woman arches her back sufficiently while doing the grind). Women who have trouble climaxing from PIV should try it

      Agreed. It has the additional advantage of being in the woman’s control – she can regulate the pressure.

      Also, it’s funny how men and women are so different regarding what’s hot. Wavevector’s romance novel passage? Meh. The mental image of the lovely Hope getting herself off 5 times in an hour? NOW THAT’S HOT!!

      Haha, no shit Sherlock. This is why we don’t see men crowding the Romance aisles at the few remaining bookstores. :)

  • HanSolo

    Pervy uncle alert! LOL Just kidding.

  • Jesse

    The mental image of the lovely Hope getting herself off 5 times in an hour? NOW THAT’S HOT!!

    That’s some voyeur shit right there.

    Girls don’t like it when you watch them from the closet, bro.

  • Passer_By

    “Pervy uncle alert! ”

    Yesssss. I’ve still got it!

    PS
    Shut up, PJ.

  • OffTheCuff

    Mr. WV, heh, don’t need to convince me, as I’m in the same boat. I’m not sure anyone believes me, though.

    Ted: “In a casual situation none of this can occur, which often means AT BEST you’ll get off. From recent stats posted here even a fair number of guys don’t manage even that, so I truly can’t see the allure of ONS/casual sex.”

    Wrong. People need to not to talk about thing about which they have no experience. I can buy less often, but not impossible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Mr. WV, heh, don’t need to convince me, as I’m in the same boat. I’m not sure anyone believes me, though.

      I believe you. I loved your Valentine’s poem. It sounds to me like you and Mrs. OTC have an incredible sex life. Like Hope, I worry that women reading your descriptions will feel inadequate – your descriptions of Mrs. OTC describe the most orgasmic woman I’ve ever heard of. That’s a pretty high standard. Believe it or not, there are those of us who are perfectly thrilled without breastgasms on two levels. I suppose ignorance is bliss.

  • Iggles

    @ Hope:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201207/so-thats-how-it-feels

    Thanks for this link! Very interesting indeed.

    I don’t want lurkers to get the impression that they’re with the wrong man (genetic compatibility or he’s not alpha or whatever) if they don’t have orgasms with P in V only! That was where this discussion seemed to be headed, and I think that is incorrect.

    I appreciate you providing a counter voice. I think it’s important when 80% of women need additional stimulation.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    mr. wavevector, my husband does the grinding thing, but (maybe TMI) he is too big/I am too small for that to be comfortable. I prefer it when he leans back and thrusts against the upper part, or thrusting up toward my belly, hitting against the g-spot. He’s amazing at it.

    Bells, I was young and bored. :P Sometimes I used a vibrator, sometimes I didn’t. The successive ones were different, sometimes stronger, and sometimes not.

    Susan, yeah but some women are worried that others are “having it better,” and men tend to also talk up the women who can have it more easily than others. So there’s pressure on women… and of course the more pressure, the less likely to relax enough to get there.

    Also, I am a big fan of the combinations of stimulation. Vaginal, clitoral, neck, lips, boobs, all of it. Just focusing on one part is too limiting…

    Lokland, it gives me a login screen requiring a password and username. I’ll take your word for it though.

    I may have misread what you were trying to say, but I don’t think genetic compatibility tells the whole story. Some people are just really misinformed. I read a story about a couple who were having trouble conceiving because they were doing anal the whole time. Yikes.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “I may have misread what you were trying to say, but I don’t think genetic compatibility tells the whole story.”

    This was one of their main reasonings within the article.
    That and being meant to bond with LTMs as well as increase their chances of fertilization over those of STMs.

  • Lokland

    Correction;

    They posited that genetic quality (not compatibility) is correlated with orgasm.
    Ie. Hotter guys give women more frequent orgasms.

    As well as LTMs.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Mr. WV, heh, don’t need to convince me, as I’m in the same boat. I’m not sure anyone believes me, though.
    I do believe you. Although it probably doesn’t count.

    That and being meant to bond with LTMs as well as increase their chances of fertilization over those of STMs.

    It might be a loophole a guy that spent enough time trying to make the woman orgasm earns trust and provider points so the body reward him by aiding his seed to fertilize. So the orgasm is the reward for bonding/attaining a mate that cares enough to please you not the cause of bonding.

  • HanSolo

    Best sex for me has been in relationships. However, there was one woman that I only had sex with once that was very good. I liked her a lot and was wanting to date her but the condom burst and everything went to hell after that–she was liking me too but that made her panic and feel guilty and so we never went out again.

    How orgasmic the women were varied highly. One woman came four times with her pants skirt and tights still on back when I was a virgin–obviously no penetration. A gf I had came vaginally most times and I loved the look on her face. Some girls in casual didn’t cum at all and some did. Others were clit only.

    I’d have to think further but I orgasmed about 85% of the times that I had sex with someone for the first time. Misfires occurred more when I was beginning and still highly nervous but did happen occasionally later on. One of those misfires involved penetrating for about 45 minutes and not being able to cum and I apologized that I was taking so long and the girl said, “No complaints from me, I’m loving it! I’ve cum 4 times already.”

    Also, I don’t drink at all and most of the women I have been with had no alcohol and only a few had had a drink or two. None were ever drunk.

  • HanSolo

    And I admit I am not certain about conjugating the verb ‘to cum’.

  • Sai

    Re: totalitarianism and sex
    I guess this might happen if things got bad enough. I wonder how much pushback/rebellion there’d be, or maybe there’d be none because there’d be an Uncle Joe 2.0 to force everyone to do what he wanted.
    You guys can have your dark age without me and mine though, I’m definitely not reproducing if that’s all the kid has to look forward to.

    Re: fewer male births
    Looks like Marcotte got what she wanted again. :(

    @HanSolo
    “Disney bought Star Wars. Hopefully this new trilogy is better than the most recent one and reaches the quality level of Empire Strikes Back.”
    Amen!

    @Hope
    Thanks for sharing that link, I had never imagined all those parallels.

    Also Bells, thanks for the exercise info.

  • HanSolo

    @Sai

    If there are too many women in the US they can always become mail-order brides to the “excess” men in China and India! LMAO

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    http://www.putslab.psu.edu/pdfs/Puts%20et%20al%20in%20press%20Arch%20Sex%20Behav.pdf

    there is a googled version of the same paper.

    @Susan

    *Being intentionally ridiculous.

    “Believe it or not, there are those of us who are perfectly thrilled without breastgasms on two levels. I suppose ignorance is bliss.”

    Would it not make sense then to have all women undergo clitorectamy therefore everyone will be ignorant and equal therefore unaware of what they are missing? (Same for men and circumcision.)

    ——

    Thank you.

  • OffTheCuff

    Han, exactly. If you email me (via Susan) I could describe better, but varied response like that, even in more casual or newly-formed situations, is to be expected.

  • Passer_By
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I bet these two women have her beat.

      The line between pain and pleasure is razor thin. That sounds terrible!

  • Sai

    @HanSolo
    I briefly entertained the idea of a business along those lines. Maybe I’ll do it one day.

  • HanSolo

    @OTC

    I’m not sure how to email via Susan. How do you do it?

  • Bells

    @Sai,

    Also Bells, thanks for the exercise info.

    Glad to be of help.

  • OffTheCuff

    Han, email her, she can give you my semi-public address I use here.

    That persistent arousal stuff looks nuts! Holy hell it’s nothing like that!

  • Iggles

    @ The Bennetts,
    No, there is vaginal penetration. The main difference is instead of thrusting in and out, the guy rocks up and down.

    http://coitalalignmenttechnique.com/coital-alignment-technique-how-and-why/ (beware, NSFW link!)

    Hah. I speak as if I’m an expert. Not so. I did some Googling after Susan and others mentioned it here. Found tracking down a diagram was not easy but that site explains it well. Anyway, I’m interested in trying out this position with the bf ;-)

  • HanSolo

    Ok, OTC, I emailed Susan asking her to pass onto you my email. Cheers.

  • Passer_By

    “OK so then I was right afterall. With CAT, according to that site, the penis is stimulating the clitoris which means it is outside of the vagina not inside it.”

    No, they just mean that the angle of entry is altered just enough to keep the shaft in contact with her clitoris. Though I’m not sure this is really what the prior commenter (wavevector?) was describing.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Another 4 days until I get to see my girlfriend again and you guys can’t stop talking about sex.

    You are all dicks.

  • Bells

    Another 4 days until I get to see my girlfriend again and you guys can’t stop talking about sex.
    You are all dicks.

    Sorry ADBG! :P

  • SayWhaat

    Some people are just really misinformed. I read a story about a couple who were having trouble conceiving because they were doing anal the whole time. Yikes.

    I read a story where the couple discovered the reason they weren’t conceiving was because he was fucking her urethra.

    Asdfhfhsthkitshysbgjdhfyjkfkjjk!!!!

  • mr. wavevector

    The CAT position? Is that where you spread you legs wide, with one up in the air, then lick your own crotch?

    Because that’s how my cat does it …

    No, they just mean that the angle of entry is altered just enough to keep the shaft in contact with her clitoris. Though I’m not sure this is really what the prior commenter (wavevector?) was describing.

    It’s the same idea anyway – put a constant pressure on the clitoral area and give it a good massage. But my wife and I don’t do it exactly like that description, with the rocking back and forth with alternate strokes and all. I tend to use a circular motion, like polishing a car, but I mix it up a bit as I feel her response, and I’m doing most of the work. The wife likes to wrap her legs around me with her ankles crossed behind my butt, and she’ll pull me in closer that way when she wants more pressure.

    Yes, the P is definitely in the V – I am in as far as it will go. That may be uncomfortable for some couples, as Hope described. But unlike Hope’s husband, I will never be accused of being “too big”.

    The bump and grind isn’t enough for me to orgasm – I need to finish off with a good wham bam. If my wife is really feeling it, that can make her come a second time.

    You can get the same effect with the woman on top, as previously mentioned, where the woman can have more control. But my wife is a “bottom” – she likes me on top better. I think not being in control is part of the turn-on for her.

  • Iggles

    This is common for natural, intact penises anyway. Cut penises are the thrusters.

    Yeah, that’s what I heard. Most American guys are cut, though that trend is reversing somewhat with boys born today. (If I have boys I would not have them circumsized. I don’t have any religious reasons for doing so, and I think the secular reasoning for it is archaic and backwards. I.e., to lessen masturbation :roll: )

    Funny thing is, my Ex was intact. I can’t remember any differences with thrusting (overall, not memorable) but I definitely liked giving oral a lot less.. However, I think that had more to do with him and the state of our relationship than the state of his foreskin. *shrug*

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Best way for the SO to really enjoy oral, IME, is to lay her on her side. My arms are long enough to easily get some vaginal play going on, and her mouth can easily reach my shaft.

    So she gets a lot of action, and really horny, while she’s working on me ;)

    Not going to lie, it is easy to get carried and for “accidents” to happen, though…

  • Iggles

    @ SayWhaat:

    I read a story where the couple discovered the reason they weren’t conceiving was because he was fucking her urethra.

    Eek!! :shock:

    How would he even fit in there? Wouldn’t he have to be pencil thin or something??

  • Passer_By

    “You are all dicks.”

    Cut or uncut?

  • Jesse

    Some people are just really misinformed. I read a story about a couple who were having trouble conceiving because they were doing anal the whole time. Yikes.

    http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/88/23/1a9392ccc1a4a4a694351d2233c3968f.jpg

  • Jesse

    I think not being in control is part of the turn-on for her.

    I’ve certainly read about this. I think the lady you mentioned who preferred to look up at you instead of down at you is probably of the same persuasion.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    On this forum, I would say “bigger, longer, and uncut”

  • Jesse

    And probably the girl who told you you could do whatever you wanted with her whenever, now that I think about it.

    Man, you sure know how to attract those kinds of women.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’ve certainly read about this. I think the lady you mentioned who preferred to look up at you instead of down at you is probably of the same persuasion.

    Yes, that seems to be the type of woman I’m attracted to, or is attracted to me.

  • Lokland

    As a more fun alternative to the CAT position.

    Stand up, have sex like you would be putting her against the wall except no wall. Hands under her lower thigh.

    Use hands to help her ride up and down (along with her feet resting on back of calves and kind of riding by thrusting her hips).

    It is a requirement now in every session as my wife’s favourite position.

    Not particularly great for the guy but significantly better than the CAT especially if your cut because grinding around in circles does absolutely nothing in that case.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    You could probably say that anywhere and be right.

  • Jesse

    Yes, that seems to be the type of woman I’m attracted to, or is attracted to me.

    Without taking up much of your time, wavevector, I’d be interested to hear what if anything in the initial impressions or early stages leads this to be the case. How do you notice them, or they notice you? Anything in your demeanor, behavior, or common characteristics across the women you’ve been with, or the nature of your interactions in the early stages of the relationship.

    I don’t want to take much of your time, but I certainly find myself drawn towards similar women, so anything you’ve learned or been told by the women you’ve been with would be interesting to hear. Thank you.

    And don’t mind the thing about foreign wives. I got the impression you thought I was female, so I just took the ball and ran with it a bit. I’m male, and I can rarely resist a joke either…

  • mr. wavevector

    And it says the penis points down instead of up. How is that possible?

    I take it to mean that the penis is pointed down at an angle, in other words, pointing forward and downwards, not pointing straight down. The man’s body is horizontal, face down. I support myself with elbows and knees, and I put weight on my wife, (because she likes being pinned to the mattress). So my penis, which normally extends upwards and forwards while I’m standing, now points forwards and downwards.

    After I fully enter her, I sort of slide my body up a bit towards her head, and this pushes my penis up into the top of her vagina and clitoris. This probably bends my penis downwards some too, although I haven’t spent much time thinking of that. The main point is to get pressure on the clitoral area with the base of the penis and lower pubic area. I had to have her guide me when we first started, but I’ve long mastered the feel of it. She rotates her hips up a bit to get the right position for her.

  • mr. wavevector

    Hey Jesse -

    Good questions. I’m turning in now, but I’ll answer tomorrow.

  • J

    Can’t you accuse her of cyber harassment? I think she crossed the line from annoying to harmful a long time ago.

    Huh? Harmful? I love PJ; she’s always good for a laugh.

    Seriously, she’s a fixture here. She’s a part of the landscape. Every blog has a PJ. Like herpes, she’s forever. Ignore her if she gets on your nerves.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ignore her if she gets on your nerves.
    I do but every-time she spews her crap It takes the quality of the conversation down and I think that is her intention. She is not any better than random PUA selling crap about how good is his reasoning. She is actually worst the PUA’s go somewhere after getting banned she just comes back plays nice for a while (so that means that she actually knows how to play nice and chooses no to) then go back to her old tricks. She is not good for HUS, IMO.

  • Passer_By

    @ana

    “Can’t you accuse her of cyber harassment? I think she crossed the line from annoying to harmful a long time ago.”

    LOL. Lots of luck with that. Might work if it was a male who was physically threatening someone. Being really fucking annoying? Uhhh, this is still the US, despite the creeping loss of freedoms.

    P.S. Shut up, PJ.

  • Iggles

    @ J:

    Every blog has a PJ. Like herpes, she’s forever. Ignore her if she gets on your nerves.

    Thanks J, I needed a good laugh :D

    Ana, J – FYI, whenever I realize the “new” poster is PJ I stop referring to her by her latest handle.

  • Jesse

    Thanks Mr. Wavevector.

  • gunslingergregi

    Bells March 8, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    A lot of women can do fine by themselves but have trouble with someone else. I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done), but still can’t get anywhere with a guy during the act itself.

    5 in an hour? Wow, I really have to practice some more!
    ””””””””

    when they say multiple orgasms for woman i think they mean at the same time like one after the other
    i mean a guy can do multiple like that oragasm refractory orgasm refractory orgasm refractory
    and not have to be by himself either
    had like 5 orgasms in 5 hours or so one time and it was all physical stimulation woman jacking me off my penis was deformed for days afterward as there was no refracton period
    done 6 times in a day with having sex regularly
    but yea i have actually experienced multiple orgasms one after the other and i am a dude but no ejaculation came out i kind of like pissed which i had never done before when a chick was giving me a blowjob
    really i think a lot of what gets a chick to be able to have the multiple orgasms is love and the psychological
    i’ll never admit that i can give better orgasms to myself jacking off than a woman i love can it wouldn’t be true
    so if it is true you are probably not with someone you love

  • gunslingergregi

    i’ve seen references to porn sex but i don’t get it
    i have never seen people make love in porn
    is that supposed to be good sex lol

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jesse,

    Without taking up much of your time, wavevector, I’d be interested to hear what if anything in the initial impressions or early stages leads this to be the case. How do you notice them, or they notice you? Anything in your demeanor, behavior, or common characteristics across the women you’ve been with, or the nature of your interactions in the early stages of the relationship.

    TLDR: This turned into a ramble, so I’m going to summarize up front:
    - Her: smart, sweet, feminine, a little bit shy or timid, conservative or modest in behavior and appearance, dutiful in her job but not wildly ambitious.
    - You: strong, confident, assertive, but also kind, caring, and empathetic.
    - Where to meet her: Through friends and friends of friends, in a context where there is an initial social connection and validation.
    - What to do: be someone she looks up to, make her feel desired (physically and emotionally), make her feel safe

    The type of girl I found success with was smart, sweet, feminine, a little bit shy or timid, conservative or modest in behavior and appearance, dutiful in her job but not wildly ambitious.

    I generally met these girls in social settings where there was already some shared social context, most often through friends or friends of friends. Most I met at house parties where there were common friends, one through work, and one was a former student. I never approach women in bars and this type of woman would not likely respond well to such an approach anyway – she’s likely to be shy and distrustful of a cold approach from a strange guy. This is not the type of girl Roissy is picking up, so emulating Roissy’s PUA tactics aren’t the way to go.

    The advantage of a situation with a shared social context is that you can talk to a girl without obviously hitting on her. You can find out who your mutual friends are, what her interests are, etc. without appearing too direct. You already have some social validation, which gives you the opportunity to express curiosity and interest in her without being “creepy”. And it’s an opportunity for you to filter for negatives like excess aggressiveness, entitlement, narcissism, dullness, flakiness, sluttyness, etc.

    It’s also gives you a bit of time to make your impression. I’ve got a theory about what women (at least these types of women) want in a man that can provide some guidance:

    1) A man they look up to, in some way that’s important to them.
    2) To be desired
    3) To feel safe

    Keep in mind these are gross generalizations that may or may not apply to any particular woman. But proceeding onwards:

    1) A man they look up to: this is the familiar topic of hypergamy. A woman wants a man that can add value to her life and brings something that she wants or needs. I like smart girls, and smart girls tend to want a man even smarter than themselves, so I demonstrate intelligence, knowledge, curiosity, and a facility with language. The girls I like are a little bit timid and are impressed with masculine self confidence and even a touch of arrogance. Physical strength and fearlessness are also appealing, but foolish risk taking isn’t.

    2) To be desired: this deals with the responsive nature of female sexuality. Women want to be found attractive and desirable, and subtle expressions of your appreciation will get a positive response. This type of girl doesn’t have an inflated self image, so aggressive “negging” is out, but some very light teasing is OK. Don’t be fawning or supplicating. And don’t just concentrate on her appearance – this girl wants to be appreciated as a person too. Hint at emotional as well as sexual interest, but don’t come on strong with either at first.

    3) To feel safe: this is a complex issue encompassing both her insecurities in the world and how she perceives you. This type of girl puts on a brave face to the world, and is actually capable of considerable bravery when pressed, but often feels vulnerable and a bit anxious. Despite the feminist indoctrination she secretly wants a man who can take care of her. She finds a strong, confident, assertive masculine presence to be very reassuring, so demonstrate those qualities. She also wants to feel safe from you, so she needs to know you are a good man. Demonstrate kindness, care, and empathy. And she wants to know that you care enough to come to her aid, so be emotionally responsive to her and establish rapport. Obviously, you want to start easy on all this stuff, just hinting at what you might offer, and build upon it if a relationship ensues. TLDR: To help her feel safe, be strong, kind, and emotionally responsive.

    Now for the dominance/submission aspect. I was always a bit amazed at how submissive my girlfriends were to me, so I’ve spent a lot of time puzzling out the psychology of female submission. The sexual and psychological response of many women leans towards the submissive and responsive – women are ‘bottoms’ more often than ‘tops’. Submissiveness is also the flip side of hypergamy; if a woman chooses a man who outranks her, that naturally puts her in the one-down position. Finally, submission is a way to solicit care and protection from a stronger individual, which a woman who feels vulnerable desires. So I think these girls were offering their submission to me both as a reward for the positive masculine things I did for them and as an inducement to invest more heavily in them.

    Although my dating occurred long before the “red pill”, I must have hit enough buttons to elicit this submissive response. I demonstrated enough strength and confidence to impress them, enough kindness and care to make them feel safe with me, and enough sexual and emotional desire to make them feel wanted. This is a hard balance to achieve and I still work on it in my marriage. I think of it as “benevolent dominance” – I aim to provide a bubble of comfort and security for my wife and children. It is essential for me to be the leader and the authority, not for my own ego, but because these give me the gravitas that makes the security I provide credible. And it is also essential for me to be kind, caring, and empathetic, so that my power is always used for the well being of my family.

  • Bells

    @Gunslingergregi,

    when they say multiple orgasms for woman i think they mean at the same time like one after the other
    i mean a guy can do multiple like that oragasm refractory orgasm refractory orgasm refractory

    I suppose that I may not be exactly sure what it means to be self multi-orgasmic. In my experience, it was more like the ebb and flow of a rollercoaster—with highs peaks and subdued valleys but never any complete stops. I guess every female is different.

    i have actually experienced multiple orgasms one after the other and i am a dude

    Admittedly, I don’t know much about male sexuality. But it is impressive that you are able to experience continuous orgasms. I hear that that it is a particularly difficult feat for men to achieve.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    mr. wavevector #478, very good post! Accurately describes the dynamics in our marriage, and I’ve used the term “benevolent dominance” here before as well. That’s the exact sort of post I’d clip to give to our son when he’s older.

  • Bells

    @mr.wavevector,

    Perfect post! This is exactly the type of man/relationship that I am looking for :)

  • SayWhaat

    Strongly endorse mr. Wavevector’s post. :)

  • Womanoid

    @The Bennets

    >>Womanoid, aren’t Brazilian women who “put out” for American and European tourists also putting out for the next batch of tourists who roll through? They basically rotate through these men in exchange for dinners in nice restaurants and entry to high priced night clubs, right? They do this through their twenties and once nearing 30 try to get one of these foreign men to marry them, right?<<

    As far as I know Brazilian women tend to be more interested in marriage, not so much in a fun, expensive night. It's more about the long term investment. Even the Brazilian supermodels we all know, women who can pretty much have whatever man they want (one would think), are married and have kids by their early 30's, which is older than average for Brazilian women, who tend to want children in their 20's.

    But again, right now Brazil is undergoing major societal changes so women are starting to marry and have kids at a later age (meaning late 20's and early 30's), which might mean that the number of wine-and-dine girls in Rio and Sao Paulo is increasing in combination with the influx of tourists. Tourists spots will soon be just like NW hemisphere I'm sure.

    In any case, my advice: wear condoms, guys! Brazil is a hard-core Catholic country and I'll leave it at that.

    Btw, fun fact: Brazilian prostitutes are being taught foreign languages in preparation for the World Cup and the Olympics.

  • INTJ

    @ Passer_by

    @ana

    “Can’t you accuse her of cyber harassment? I think she crossed the line from annoying to harmful a long time ago.”

    LOL. Lots of luck with that. Might work if it was a male who was physically threatening someone. Being really fucking annoying? Uhhh, this is still the US, despite the creeping loss of freedoms.

    P.S. Shut up, PJ.

    Actually, violating the terms of service of a website constitutes “hacking” and is consider a felony, as the attempted prosecution against Aaron Swartz showed.

  • OffTheCuff

    LOL: “However, some argue that clitoral orgasm is not as profound as Virginal Orgasm. Studies have shown that virginal orgasm requires G-spot stimulation as opposed to clitoris stimulation in coital alignment technique.”

    If you have a virginal orgasm, are you still a virgin?

  • Jesse

    Thank you for your time, Mr, Wavevector. I think you’ve just about hit the spot.

    Last question, which concerns physical appearances. Are you large, strong or masculine-looking? Did you go for any specific type, facially or physically?

    I suspect that the masculine-feminine, dominant-submissive dynamic extends to appearances, at least some of the time.

  • OffTheCuff

    Good post again from Mr. Wave that I strongly agree with. Maybe he’s a big, athletic guy, but I’m certianly not, and there’s nothing I’m there that requires that (though I imagine it helps). It’s all your attitude.

  • HanSolo

    Great post, Mr. Wavevector. I also liked your post a while back on the benevolent dominance and how when women act vulnerable with a man that loves her that she acquires much more power and influence over him than if she tries to be the boss.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Actually, violating the terms of service of a website constitutes “hacking” and is consider a felony, as the attempted prosecution against Aaron Swartz showed.

    Oh interesting what are the chances of the prosecution being successful? Not for this case just as general knowledge. I freaking hate trolls and hackers.

  • mr. wavevector

    Last question, which concerns physical appearances. Are you large, strong or masculine-looking?

    No, not at all. I’m a bit shorter than average with a medium build and average looks. My facial features are not strongly masculine. Women who liked me called me ‘cute’. So physically I’m at a disadvantage to tall, handsome, masculine looking men. To the extent I impress women as masculine, it’s due to my behavior and intellect.

    That is why I have only had success meeting women in situations where I have some social validation that allows me to initiate in a low pressure way. When a you approaches a woman at a bar, the expectation is that you’re hitting on her and she’s going to immediately size you up as mate material. If you’re chatting with a woman at a mutual friends party, it’s just getting to know each other in a friendly way. You’re not immediately signalling sexual interest, so she’s not immediately forced to evaluate you. Besides, I need to be able to talk (and be heard) to convey my value, and that’s hard to do in a noisy bar.

    Did you go for any specific type, facially or physically?

    No, not particularly. I’ve dated blonds, redheads and brunettes. Some were petite, most medium height, one LTR was with a girl 2″ taller than me. (She wanted to marry me too – I declined because she didn’t want kids). All were medium build and attractive but not super hot. I have enough sense not to chase after women who are out of my league in physical attractiveness.

  • Jesse

    Thanks again, Mr. Wavevector. I suppose you’re not an extrene dominant male type but it sounds like you’ve done well. I appreciate your answers.

    —–

    OTC, the reason I brought up physical prowess is that I think it can be a plus in sexual attraction and dynamics. If a man and woman both prefer that he take control during sex, then they can derive tremendous enjoyment from his physical ability to do so. After all, a weak man’s domination is probably not going to feel quite as authentic to either of them. If a woman wants to be taken, it’s easier to take her if you’re not a stick figure.

    I’ve read at least a couple accounts that support this, and it just seems to fit within the general theme of more assertive men and submissive women.

  • Jennifer

    I know this is a bit old but I am new here and just wanted to remind people that there are two breeds of sluts (male and female): there are the natural sluts (alphas) in which the men have fewer vasopressin receptors and females have less oxytocin receptors and both groups don’t form neurochemical bonds with others. These are the the nature sluts. Its literally in their DNA.

    Then there are the nurture sluts, which the hookup SMP has fostered. These are betas who give up and go for being wannabe alphas PUA style and “good girls” who suffered psychosexual damage from early adolescent coerced sex up through the current situation which tells females they are needy freaks for wanting a relationship instead of a “liberated” hookup. Evidence shows that the more a person engages in multiple casual partners, the more their attachment system is damaged. So they in theory are turning their brains into a similar structure to the non-attachers the nature sluts. So its almost spot on to say unless you are deficient in neurochemical receptors genetically, casual sex (sustained) will cause brain damage.

    I know its taken me therapy and 12 step programs to recover from being in the nurture category (used terribly by the nature sluts). Its almost like vampirism. Im going to start wearing garlic to keep the alphas and their apprentice beta sluts away. Its never too late to stop being a slut unless its too late. Hell look at Jodi Arias. Casual sex is the reason she is going to be in jail forever. Without the madness of oxytocin trying to bond…

    Also I don’t understand how having multiple uncommitted relationships can bring about stability, yet I keep hearing these people say they don’t want drama. Cognitive dissonance?

  • Jennifer

    I wish I had the time to read all the comments. I think its important to remember that neurochemicals are triggered during sex not just at orgasm. As a recovering slut, I can say the poundings I took from alphas never once triggered any attachment, even if I did achieve orgasm. I have had the most orgasms and emotionally satisfying transcendent sex with betas. They totally sparked my attachment. I married the first. The second is beyond repair beta slut commitmentphobe. Mommy issues. Sad. With a celibacy break and some bravery he could be a great guy. But he’s not afraid to fish in the fat pier (I am a size 10 and he sport fucks mostly 16′s) for some periodic no mess with women who worship and compete for him and I am out of his league and now that I’m recovering from my psychological trauma from no just the hookup culture, that is a smaller piece of the consumer culture in general.

  • Fifth Season

    @Jennifer:

    Two days since the previous comment isn’t old, by this blog’s comment thread standards.

    Did you find sex better with the betas because they cared about you more? What drove you to divorce your “first beta”?

    It’s no secret that the neurochemical attachment system is damaged (or was never created) in a great deal of people. What’s worse is when via PUA training or bad experiences the neurochemical attachment is intentionally or accidentally damaged.

    If indeed your experiences about beta sex being better than alpha sex are widespread, I’m surprised that this hasn’t dissuaded would-be PUAs from their craft. Then again, I’m sure many of them don’t care so as long as they get off and can move onto the next HB10.

  • OffTheCuff

    Interesting comments, Jennifer. Is it possible to have *overdeveloped* bonding abilities, in which case causal is one way of defusing that liability?

    Jen: “Also I don’t understand how having multiple uncommitted relationships can bring about stability, yet I keep hearing these people say they don’t want drama. Cognitive dissonance?”

    Yeah, that’s bizarre.