Is ‘No Strings Attached’ Sex an Oxymoron?

March 7, 2013

Guilty WomanA new paper by Justin Garcia, a Research Fellow at the Kinsey Institute (and a protege of Helen Fisher) takes stock of the latest research on the psychological consequences of casual sex. Buckle up, there’s lots of bad news for both sexes, and 20 excellent reasons not to engage in casual sex. There is still no such thing as a free lunch.

Garcia’s intro:

It is an unprecedented time in the history of human sexuality. In the United States, the age when people first marry and reproduce has been pushed back dramatically, while at the same time the age of puberty has dropped, resulting in an era in which young adults are physiologically able to reproduce but not psychologically or socially ready to “settle down” and begin a family (Bogle, 2007; Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

These developmental shifts, research suggests, are some of the factors driving the increase in sexual “hookups,” or uncommitted sexual encounters, part of a popular cultural change that has infiltrated the lives of emerging adults throughout the Western world.

Hookups are becoming more engrained in popular culture, reflecting both evolved sexual predilections and changing social and sexual scripts. 

Some Interesting Background on How We Got Here

  • “Hookups began to become more frequent in the 1920s, with the upsurge of automobiles and novel entertainment, such as movie theaters. Instead of courting at home under a parent’s watchful eye, young adults left the home and were able to explore their sexuality more freely.”
  • “By the 1960s, young adults became even more sexually liberated, with the rise of feminism, widespread availability of birth control and growth of sex-integrated college party events.”
  • “The media have become a source of sex education, filled with often inaccurate portrayals of sexuality (Kunkel et al., 2005). The themes of books, plots of movies and television shows, and lyrics of numerous songs all demonstrate a permissive sexuality among consumers. The media suggest that uncommitted sex, or hookups, can be both physically and emotionally enjoyable and occur without “strings.” “

The Culture Today

  • The most recent data suggest that between 60 percent and 80 percent of North American college students have had some sort of hook-up experience. This is consistent with the view of emerging adulthood (typical college age) as a period of developmental transition (Arnett, 2000), exploring and internalizing sexuality and romantic intimacy, now including hookups (Stinson, 2010).
  • Although much of the current research has been done on college campuses, among younger adolescents, 70 percent of sexually active 12- to 21-year-olds reported having had uncommitted sex within the last year (Grello et al., 2003).

Garcia goes on to thoroughly survey the notable research to date. Here are the most interesting excerpts:

Regret Later?

It’s clear that positive feelings from a hookup diminish over time. Also, unsurprisingly, women express far more regret and other emotional consequences than men. Still, it’s clear that about a quarter of women enjoy hooking up and cite no ill effects. (It’s amazing how that 20-25% number comes up again and again!)

1. In one study, among participants who were asked to characterize the morning after a hookup, 82 percent of men and 57 percent of women were generally glad they had done it (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

 2. In a study of 832 college students, 26 percent of women and 50 percent of men reported feeling positive after a hookup, and 49 percent of women and 26 percent of men reported a negative reaction (the remainders for each sex had a mix of both positive and negative reactions; Owen et al., 2010).

3. In a qualitative study that asked 187 participants to report their feelings after a typical hookup, 35 percent reported feeling regretful or disappointed, 27 percent good or happy, 20 percent satisfied, 11 percent confused, 9 percent proud, 7 percent excited or nervous, 5 percent uncomfortable, and 2 percent desirable or wanted (Paul & Hayes, 2002).

4. In a large Web-based study of 1,468 undergraduate students, participants reported a variety of consequences: 27.1 percent felt embarrassed, 24.7 percent reported emotional difficulties, 20.8 percent experienced loss of respect, and 10 percent reported difficulties with a steady partner (Lewis et al., 2011).

5. In another recent study conducted on a sample of 200 undergraduate students in Canada, 78 percent of women and 72 percent of men who had uncommitted sex (including vaginal, anal, and/or oral sex) reported a history of experiencing regret following such an encounter (Fisher et al., 2012).

6. In a study of 270 sexually active college-age students, 72 percent regretted at least one instance of previous sexual activity (Oswalt, Cameron, & Koob, 2005).

7. In a report of 152 female undergraduate students, 74 percent had either a few or some regrets from uncommitted sex: 61 percent had a few regrets, 23 percent had no regrets, 13 percent had some regrets and 3 percent had many regrets (Eshbaugh & Gute, 2008).

8. Another study identified two types of sexual encounters that were particularly predictive of regret: engaging in penetrative intercourse with someone known less than 24 hours and engaging in penetrative intercourse with someone only once…Campbell (2008) found that men had stronger feelings of being “sorry because they felt they used another person,” whereas women had stronger feelings of “regret because they felt used.”

The Toll on Mental Health:

If you’re not cut out for it, it can really bum you out.

1. In a study of 394 young adults followed across a university semester, those with more depressive symptoms and greater feelings of loneliness who engaged in penetrative sex hookups subsequently reported a reduction in both depressive symptoms and feelings of loneliness (Owen et al., 2011).

At the same time, participants who reported fewer depressive symptoms and fewer feelings of loneliness who engaged in penetrative sex hookups subsequently reported an increase in both depressive symptoms and feelings of loneliness (Owen et al., 2011).

2. In another study, among 291 sexually experienced individuals, people who had the most regret after uncommitted sex also had more symptoms of depression than those who had no regret (Welsh et al., 2006). However, in the same sample, women’s but not men’s degree of depressive symptoms increased with number of previous sex partners within the last year (Welsh et al., 2006).

“Discrepancies between behaviors and desires, particularly with respect to social-sexual relationships, have dramatic implications for physical and mental health.”

3. In the first study to investigate the issue of self-esteem and hookups, both men and women who had ever engaged in an uncommitted sexual encounter had lower overall self-esteem scores compared with those without uncommitted sexual experiences (Paul et al., 2000).

“Despite the allure of engaging in uncommitted sex, research shows that people engage in these behaviors even when they feel uncomfortable doing so.”

4. Misperception of sexual norms is one potential driver for people to behave in ways they do not personally endorse. In a replication and extension of Lambert et al.’s (2003) study, Reiber and Garcia (2010) found that 78 percent of people overestimated others’ comfort with many different sexual hook-up behaviors, with men particularly overestimating women’s actual comfort with a variety of sexual behaviors in hookups.

“Hook-up scenarios may include feelings of pressure and performance anxiety, contributing to feelings of discomfort.”

5. In Paul et al.’s (2000) study on hookups, 16 percent of participants felt pressured during their typical hookup. In this sample, 12 percent of participants felt out of control when intercourse was not involved, while 22 percent felt out of control when sexual intercourse took place.

6. In a study of 169 sexually experienced men and women surveyed in singles bars, when presented with the statement, “I feel guilty or would feel guilty about having sexual intercourse with someone I had just met,” 32 percent of men and 72 percent of women agreed (Herold & Mewhinney, 1993)

“Qualitative descriptions of hookups reveal relative gender differences in terms of feelings afterward, with women displaying more negative reactions than men.”

7. Women generally identify more emotional involvement in seemingly “low investment” (i.e., uncommitted) sexual encounters than men (Townsend, 1995).

8. In a study of 140 (109 female, 31 male) first-semester undergraduates, women, but not men, who had engaged in intercourse during a hookup showed higher rates of mental distress (Fielder & Carey, 2010).

9. In a sample of 507 undergraduate students, more women than men hoped that a relationship would develop following a hookup. Only 4.4 percent of men and 8.2 percent of women (6.45 percent of participants) expected a traditional romantic relationship as an outcome, while 29 percent of men and 42.9 percent of women (36.57 percent of participants) ideally wanted such an outcome (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

“It is likely that a substantial portion of emerging adults today are compelled to publicly engage in hookups while desiring both immediate sexual gratification and more stable romantic attachments.”

Sexual Risk

10. People who hook up are more likely to have concurrent sexual partners (Paik, 2010b). Moreover, in a sample of 1,468 college students, among the 429 students who had engaged in oral sex, anal sex or vaginal intercourse in their most recent hookup, only 46.6 percent reported using a condom (Lewis et al., 2011).

11. In a sample of several thousand people ages 15 to 25, men and women who had used marijuana or cocaine in the previous 12 months were also more likely than nonusers to have had nonmonogamous sex in the past 12 months (van Gelder et al., 2011).

12. In one study of undergraduate students, 33 percent of those who reported they had uncommitted sex indicated their motivation was “unintentional,” likely due to alcohol and other drugs (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

13. In Fielder and Carey’s (2010) study among 118 first-semester female college students, participants reported that 64 percent of uncommitted sexual encounters followed alcohol use, with the average occuring after consuming three alcoholic drinks. 

14. In a sample of 178 college students, participants noted that most of their unwanted sex occurred in the context of hookups: 77.8 percent during a hookup, 13.9 percent in an ongoing relationship and 8.3 percent on a date (Flack et al., 2007).

15. In a study by Lewis et al. (2011), 86.3 percent of participants portrayed their most recent hook-up experience as one they wanted to have, while 7.6 percent indicated that their most recent hookup was an experience they did not want to have or to which they were unable to give consent. Unwanted and nonconsensual sexual encounters are more likely occurring alongside alcohol and substance use.

16. Alcohol use has also been associated with a type of hookup: The greatest alcohol use was associated with penetrative sexual hookups, less alcohol use with nonpenetrative hookups, and the least amount of alcohol use occurred among those who did not hook-up (Owen, Fincham, & Moore, 2011).

17. In one study of men and women who had engaged in an uncommitted sexual encounter that included vaginal, anal or oral sex, participants reported their intoxication levels: 35 percent were very intoxicated, 27 percent were mildly intoxicated, 27 percent were sober and 9 percent were extremely intoxicated (Fisher, Worth, Garcia, & Meredith, 2012).

“Alcohol may also serve as an excuse, purposely consumed as a strategy to protect the self from having to justify hook-up behavior later (Paul, 2006).”

Other factors may include media consumption, personality and biological predispositions:

18. Garcia, MacKillop, et al. (2010) demonstrated an association between dopamine D4 receptor gene polymorphism (DRD4 VNTR) and uncommitted sexual activity among 181 young men and young women…Individuals with a particular “risk-taking” variant of the dopamine D4 receptor gene were shown to have a higher likelihood of having uncommitted sexual encounters (including infidelity and one-night stands); however, no sex differences were observed.

This suggests that biological factors that contribute to motivating the different contexts of sexual behavior for both men and women may be fairly sexually monomorphic (Garcia & Reiber, 2008; Garcia, Reiber, et al., 2010). 

Casual Sex is Meh

19. Men reached orgasm more often than women. In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.

20. Armstrong, England and Fogarty (2009) addressed sexual satisfaction in a large study of online survey responses from 12,295 undergraduates from 17 different colleges. Participants were asked about oral sex rates and orgasm in their most recent hookup and most recent relationship sexual event. In this study, men reported receiving oral sex both in hookups and in relationships much more than women.

In first-time hookups that involved oral sex, 55 percent included only men receiving oral sex, 19 percent only women receiving oral sex, and 27 percent both mutually receiving; in last relationship sexual activity, 32 percent included only men receiving oral sex, 16 percent included only women receiving oral sex, and 52 percent included both mutually receiving.

Garcia’s Conclusion

By definition, sexual hookups provide the allure of sex without strings attached. Despite their increasing social acceptability, however, developing research suggests that sexual hookups may leave more strings attached than many participants might first assume.

  • Zach

    Numbers 19 and 20 are the biggies for me. With a rare exception or two, drunk casual sex is usually no better than my right hand.

    And I can vouch for number 10. I wouldn’t say I’m at 45%, but I have times when I think how lucky I’ve been not to catch anything given how stupid my behavior was at times. I have a friend who gets around more than I do (I think his N is near 35 or so, and it’s almost exclusively wasted sex with randos), and he almost never uses a condom. We’re all disgusted by it/waiting for him to get AIDS.

  • Underdog

    @Zach

    Look up how difficult it is for males to get STDs.

  • Oh for crying out loud YareallyPUA just go away already. Why do you invest so much time typing out a comment promoting a lifestyle that no one here wants?

    Me thinks thou doth protest a ridiculous amount.

  • Morgasm

    Regarding casual sex, here’s something that also ties into MRAs going abroad to foreign countries to find what they refer to as “feminine” women.
    The men in this documentary are saying they are doing it to get the “respect as men” that they do not get in the USA. In the same breath they claim American women just want their money but then describe how they spend their time in Brazil dancing, drinking, partying and what they call general “chillin’ and hangin’ out with” local women. Fair enough but who’s paying for all the food and booze? Brazilian women?

    The Brazilian women interviewed also talk a lot about dancing, drinking, having a good time and “treating these men nice”, but no mention of settling down, marriage, having children in one’s most fertile years, etc.

    So while these men are claiming these women are better in all ways to American women, it doesn’t appear they are eager to wife and family them up. So that leaves me to question the life trajectory of these women.
    Is it simply spending a decade or 2 “drinking, dancing, and treating American men nice”?

    Wouldn’t Brazilian women be better served just getting married and having children while they are still fertile?

    I mean, what’s in it for them other than a few years of partying at the financial expense of American men?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOjvPOBvd9A

  • Morgasm

    And for those of you who don’t want to sit through the entire 40 minute documentary, here’s a 2 minute trailer which basically sums it up;

    American MRAs in Brazil;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5cyFyhfN8

  • angelguy

    I think one has to ask why more people are going this route, rather than long term relationships. If you were to start with that, you would be surprised to find how simple the answers are.

    There is no such thing as, “No strings attached sex”.
    There is always something.
    It just might not be what you expect.

    I could use some of that, lol. But it has been a long workday.

  • Abbot
  • Abbot

    Knowing this, will women or men have a better chance of finding a non-promicous person to commit to?

  • Mireille

    @ Abbot,

    I really liked that article and can definitely relate. What has been omitted was that women also received the info that they shouldn’t communicate TO MEN that they want a bf, not overtly. Just play hard to get, act non-committal and be ‘cool’, and all that jazz. So you get the message that women shouldn’t advertize that they want commitment publicly because that’s what the cads want to hear (always catering to that small portion of the SMP) and you don’t look “desperate” in front of other women. Result, you’re locked up in some infernal box where your real desires are not to been expressed.
    The problem is that when the biological clock get louder in your head and you finally muster the courage to say “I want to get married, have children and get boringly happy”, people call you desperate, used up or reformed carroussel rider trying to corner some beta. You just can’t win.

    I’d say 3 lines of thinking have informed me of how I’d react to casual sex and my decision to opt out and sit out the whole thing”
    _ The need for sexual validation: I remember “feeling” more excited that guys liked me or wanted to have sex with me. Even after some filtering, I wasn’t really in sync with my own desires, it was more about pleasing those who picked me, like a reward. Bad business.
    _The Pluralistic ignorance: most of the GF were bragging about the great sex they were having and some had the ability to get guys to be interested, albeit not to fully commit but it was still a major step. Hooking up was the seen as the only step in. Sometimes, it went from 0 to 60, little flirting and PDA, straight to sex.
    _A clear representation of the your partner’s intention: Engaging in sexual activity when you’re hoping the guy really likes you and doesn’t pull the fade tomorrow or next week is no good.

    The analysis of those 3 factors ending in a negative conclusion were a recipe for disaster for me. I preferred to quit the game altogether than accumulating bruises to my body and sanity. I’m really happy to say I have little baggage and pretty optimistic about the future in that area, that is if I don’t get discarded for being past the expiration date.

  • Morgasm

    “Knowing this, will women or men have a better chance of finding a non-promicous person to commit to?”

    Are you referring to the documentary posted above about American MRAs in Brazil? The Brazilian women they are dealing with appear quite promiscuous to me. All the talk about “drinking, dancing and treating the men nicer than those nasty American women.”

    Meanwhile the American women in the video were discussing what they need from men in order to have a functional marriage and family life.

    The irony is that these men are claiming that the Brazilian women are “more feminine” and “not about money”.

    Drinking, eating, dancing and partying in Brazil is free?
    Or are the Brazilian women footing the bills?

  • Lokland

    Susan,

    Have you considered comparing the numbers of men/women expressing regret/depression because they have hooked up over those who have not?

    • @Lokland

      Have you considered comparing the numbers of men/women expressing regret/depression because they have hooked up over those who have not?

      That would be interesting. I did notice that when depressed people hook up, they feel better. When non-depressed people hook up they feel worse.

      I was aware in looking over all the stats on regret that they reflect those people hooking up. The 20-40% not hooking up at all aren’t even included, obviously.

      I have written one post about the negative long-term effects of hooking up:

      Casual Sex Makes College Students Crazy, Fat and Stupid

      They looked at these parameters:

      Mental Health

      The researchers conservatively defined mental health problems as those serious enough to have a detrimental effect on academic performance. Students were asked to report serious problems resulting from the following:

      alcohol use
      depression/anxiety disorder
      seasonal affective disorder
      drug use
      eating disorder/problem
      relationship difficulties
      stress

      Physical Health

      Students reported a decline in academic performance due to any of the following:

      cold/flu/sore throat
      injury
      mononucleosis
      sinus infection/ear infection/bronchitis/strep throat
      sleep difficulties

      This model showed that being in a committed romantic relationship is associated with having fewer sexual partners and that having more sexual partners is directly associated with problematic outcomes, such that having more sexual partners predicts poorer physical and mental health. These results suggest that being in a committed romantic relationship decreases problematic outcomes largely through a reduction in sexual partners, which is associated with decreases in both risky behaviors and problematic outcomes.

      1. Students in committed relationships drank less overall, engaged in binge drinking less frequently and drove drunk less.

      2. There was no difference between the groups in the use of tobacco or illicit drugs.

      3. Not surprisingly, students in LTRs had fewer sexual partners during the last year.

      4. LTR partners had fewer mental health problems.

      5. LTR partners were less likely to be overweight or obese.

      6. There was no difference in physical health problems (excluding STIs) between the two groups.

  • Morgasm

    “Although much of the current research has been done on college campuses, among younger adolescents, 70 percent of sexually active 12- to 21-year-olds reported having had uncommitted sex within the last year (Grello et al., 2003).”

    Good lord, 12 year olds?!?!?!

  • Cut the crap on the Brazilian women

    American women have priced themselves out of the market for most men. If you want to get the kind of attention from a slender, feminine woman in the USA as you can get in Brazil for very little, you will need to spend exponentially more.

    Market forces at work. Programmers and factory workers aren’t the only ones who can be outsourced.

  • Morgasm

    “American women have priced themselves out of the market for most men. If you want to get the kind of attention from a slender, feminine woman in the USA as you can get in Brazil for very little, you will need to spend exponentially more.

    Market forces at work.”

    Nothing against those women. Watch the documentary. The mens’ attitudes and comments in it are telling.

    Its also telling that you use “priced out of market” and “market forces”.

    In the docu-video the men talk about how American women just want them for their money whereas Brazilian women “respect” them but they never once mention the exchange rate and how its more affordable for them to wine and dine Brazilian women in the manner they expect it.

    They should be honest and just come out and say, “Brazilian women want the same damn thing from us but the exchange rate here makes it affordable so we’ll call it “respect” instead”.

  • Mireille

    “They should be honest and just come out and say, “Brazilian women want the same damn thing from us but the exchange rate here makes it affordable so we’ll call it “respect” instead”.”

    I think Morg is right; I’m fine with men going to other places to have “more for their money”; People do it for healthcare and even retirement these days so it isn’t just a question of “feminine” women. Expectations are lower there, not in regard of relationship but also regarding the cost associated with them.
    If you’re going to use ‘market forces’ and ‘out-pricing’ terms, gotta be ok with calling it optimizing your wallet. It’s all good if it results in marriage and babies and not just sexual interludes. YMMV

  • lovelost

    i guess hookup will stop, when society finds enough scientific evidence that is bad, just like obesity.

  • Underdog

    Judging from that youtube clip, the American women all look like walruses while the Brazil women all look like, well, Brazil women.

    Money, respect, niceness, etc. are all rationalizations and attempts at not sounding “shallow”.

  • Morgasm

    “Judging from that youtube clip, the American women all look like walruses while the Brazil women all look like, well, Brazil women.

    Money, respect, niceness, etc. are all rationalizations and attempts at not sounding “shallow”.

    In the longer documentary the men talk about looks as well. But the main memes they keep repeating are “respect” and “money”.

    They don’t get no respect from American women and AW just want money and earn more than they do.

    Its quite a hoot. One guy (he’s shown at the very beginning of the trailer) sitting at a restaurant table says, “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    WTF?

  • Sassy6519

    Its quite a hoot. One guy (he’s shown at the very beginning of the trailer) sitting at a restaurant table says, “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    WTF?

    Hahahahahaha!!! That’s pathetic.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That would be interesting. I did notice that when depressed people hook up, they feel better. When non-depressed people hook up they feel worse.”

    I saw that which is why I asked.

    Depression/stressed out anxiety problems are a serious problem, two separate schools off the top of my head, this year reported 78ish and 88ish % of students reporting depression.

    “The researchers conservatively defined mental health problems as those serious enough to have a detrimental effect on academic performance. Students were asked to report serious problems resulting from the following:”

    I didn’t get to hook up at all in college (or for that matter much ever) and I was severely depressed about life in general.

    Of course, my B type personality made stress from school a non-existent factor.

    I spent more of my undergrad career thinking about not getting laid rather than my classes. (As in upwards of 90% of my focus.)
    (Same in high school except it was because I didn’t have a girlfriend. Funny how expectations are dependant upon environment.)

    And both caused very serious depression.

  • Morgasm

    Yes, Sassy. Right here;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5cyFyhfN8

    I was smacking my head throughout (though I really wanted to smack their’s).

    And the older guy saying he tells his married friends NOT to come to Brazil because they are going to be thinking about how to get rid of their wives once they return home? Just a second before that his buddy to his right was saying, “Many of my married friends’ wives forbid them from coming to Brazil. My opinion is if your wive is not letting you do something, your marriage has problems.”

    Then later in the documentary a Brazilian woman asks, “why American women don’t want their husbands to come to Brazil? We drink with them, dance with them, treat them nice. What is the problem?”

    Um, ok.

  • Lokland

    @Morgasm

    “Look, I come into a restaurant in Brazil and the waitress places my drink right in front of me and removes the straw paper because she’s a woman and knows her role.”

    Rofl. ‘Yeah, that bitch knows where to put my straw’

    Ohh the endless innuendo available from that actually makes me want to put it on TV just so I can have some excellent material.

  • Kurt

    Casual sex also seems to be bad for society because a lot of men aren’t getting it and as a result they often become bitter and/or distrustful of women, whom they assume to be sluts unworthy of marriage.

  • Senior Beta

    So Roosh was right? About Brazilian women, I mean.

  • Abbot

    “Casual sex also seems to be bad for society because a lot of men aren’t getting it and as a result they often become bitter and/or distrustful of women, whom they assume to be sluts unworthy of marriage.”

    Same goes even if they are getting it…

  • Morgasm

    “Same goes even if they are getting it…”

    Men are fickle and never satisfied.

    I think they need to do their own version of Eat Pray Love, put up in an ashram somewhere and learn the value of meditation.

  • Fifth Season

    Kind of makes you wonder why the Hook-up culture gets such a nice rap if all the downsides are there for all to see.

    It makes cases like Susan’s own marriage (or rather, the genesis of intimacy in her marriage) all the stranger. I’d be interested in seeing if there are common traits in the “hook-ups that worked” anecdotes around.

    • Kind of makes you wonder why the Hook-up culture gets such a nice rap if all the downsides are there for all to see.

      Well, FWIW, it’s gotten a lot more criticism since I started blogging four years ago. I was practically a lone voice then online, though I had been inspired by a number of researchers who had published books on the topic. Any negative articles were generally found in student newspapers across the country. Now we have even more research – as Garcia’s article makes clear – but also a lot more debate about casual sex in the MSM.

  • Brendan

    I don’t see the relevance of all the back and forth about Brazil in a thread about young American people and the hookup culture. The tie-in seem tenuous at best.

    When I was living in Germany, one of my German lawyer colleagues went to Brazil for the purpose of finding a wife, for much the same reason (didn’t like German women). They did marry and have kids, and they eventually moved to the US to live. Not really an issue — it’s a global market for everything else, why not for spouses? And, yes she was, let’s just say, very *very* different from the typical German woman, and not just in terms of her appearance. It’s a different culture altogether. Having said that, finding a mate in a foreign culture can be a bit dicey, but if you are yourself culturally flexible (the last thing on his mind was Germanizing her — that was precisely what he was trying to avoid), it can be good for both people.

    And, yes, German women were pissed at him (he was quite tall, athletic, good looking and a very smart and successful lawyer).

    Sour grapes make for some bitter wine, it seems to me.

    • I haven’t followed the Brazil convo closely, and didn’t view the link, but I will emphatically state that I support people finding love wherever they choose, and wherever they can. I don’t see what national borders have to do with it, or why it’s anyone else’s business.

      There is a young family on my street which is pretty obviously a mail-order bride situation – he’s older, and she’s young and Vietnamese. They have a beautiful little boy and seem extremely happy together. It seems to me that’s what we want more of – stable, productive families.

  • YaLol

    “I’d be interested in seeing if there are common traits in the “hook-ups that worked” anecdotes around.”

    There are plenty. I’m trying to explain them here, but Sue keeps deleting my comments that explain very common things that differentiate a “good hook-up that was great and can lead to a relationship” VS “bad hook-up that leaves the girl feeling used and ashamed.”

    But hey, who wants the truth?

    @Sue
    I wasn’t even challenging you, I was agreeing with the stats AND with your overall message/mission for women. 🙂 You are just blind with hatred as soon as you see my name now. And here I was, trying to be nice.

    Let your readers decide if my very respectful, friendly comment was useful or not. You don’t seem to give your readers much credit in their ability to be able to read information and choose not to absorb it. They’re smart capable adults.

    What I wrote would help women know what to look for in a no-strings hookup if they’ve decided they want that despite your teaching (like a girl choosing not to see a guy more than once a week to avoid getting attached to him could help a girl who knows she falls in love too quick and keeps getting her heart broken and scaring off guys she wants to start an LTR with).

    I thought you wanted to help women find fulfilling relationships? Don’t you want to see those ugly statistics up above turn into positive ones where women are satisfied and happy with their romantic lives and decisions?

    You don’t WANT women to feel ashamed and miserable, do you? So let my post in so they can learn what guys looking for casual sex are thinking and can avoid us or use the knowledge to set up relationships that they want instead.

    I’ve saved that comment to repost it whenever you decide to take off the hate-goggles and actually read what I’m writing and think about how it can help the women in your audience. 🙂 You said you don’t censor comments that are written politely and non-confrontational.

    • @YaReallyReallyAnnoying

      What I wrote would help women know what to look for in a no-strings hookup if they’ve decided they want that despite your teaching

      Do you realize how inane this is? Why on earth would I want to provide a platform for women who want no-strings hookups? They don’t need me for that – they can have it any day of the week. And they certainly don’t need a PUA telling them what works.

      Don’t you want to see those ugly statistics up above turn into positive ones where women are satisfied and happy with their romantic lives and decisions?

      You’re missing the point. 75-80% of women don’t like casual sex and don’t want it. Of the 20-25% who do, they don’t need your advice, they’re already happy with their hookups.

      So let my post in so they can learn what guys looking for casual sex are thinking and can avoid us or use the knowledge to set up relationships that they want instead.

      Your casual sex ‘tips’ are not useful in the formation of relationships.

      I will present the research and facts regardless of my personal feelings about them, but will not provide editorial content on how to get or enjoy casual sex, when the whole purpose of HUS is to promote its opposite.

      I don’t find your commentary useful or interesting, and I see no evidence that anyone else does either. You can keep posting with different names and different IP addresses, and I’ll keep deleting, or you can just give up. The best you can do is a few hours of exposure while I’m offline. Your choice.

  • Thank you Tia.

  • Ted D

    Morgasm – “Does it makes sense for a man who has a woman to expect his “other woman” to be exclusive to him?!?! What is this crap?”

    For many men a sexual relationship involves a certain level of “mate ownership”, which is to say many men feel that they own their mate to some degree. Like many things this is on a spectrum. So from that perspective, a man would be “snooping” on the woman he is cheating with because he feels possessive of his mate. It doesn’t matter that HE is cheating at all, but that she isn’t getting sex anywhere else. Fair? Nope. True. Yep.

    I’ve admitted many times here that I have a strong sense of mate ownership, even to go as far as telling my wife often that her ass belongs to me. Because of my sense of fairness, and because I actually derive pleasure from being part of a couple, I have no issues with reciprocating that ownership. I think that in the long run its a pretty fair trade.

    Not all men care about fairness, and many have no problem being a hypocrite.

  • Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way? That certainly is true of almost all women’s first time and probably the vast majority of men’s too. One is learning and growing, and coming into one’s own. So I don’t think that in and of itself is alarming (although there are certain stats there that are certainly disturbing; but it’s not all bad).

    What would be problematic is if people continue in bad habits and bad patterns for years after–that would be self-destructive on a signifiant scale. A lot of it also has to do with wild unrealistic expectations, surely fueled by the media and peer pressure.

    • @IP

      Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way? That certainly is true of almost all women’s first time and probably the vast majority of men’s too.

      Are you trolling? I can’t speak for men and you certainly can’t speak for women. I can assure you that “almost all” women do not find their first sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory. Quite the opposite, especially if it is in the context of a relationship.

  • Ted D

    IP – “Aren’t a disproportionate number of one’s earliest sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory in some way?”

    My first time was with a girl I spent 4 years with, and it was in no way regretful or unsatisfactory. In fact the first time I had unsatisfactory sex was with my first wife well past the point that she lost attraction for me. And it was unsatisfactory not because it was bad sex, but because I knew she don’t want me and was doing her “duty”.

    I have zero regrets when it comes to my sexual history or choices. I firmly believe more people would be happier if they could say the same.

  • Jesse

    It’s data points like nineteen that remind me the world is filled with idiots.

  • Ted D

    ROFL. I don’t know about your neck of the woods Morgasm, but around these parts “plugging” is slang for using a tampon during shark week. Mostly used as: “you’re being a real bitch today. Are you plugging?”

  • Ted D

    Oh. And I guess it’s a good thing I’m a relic. I enjoy oral sex a great deal. 😉

  • Ted–Fair enough. You must have been in a very relaxed and comfortable mental state. My first time was pretty unimpressive to put it diplomatically. But certainly I would think most women’s first time would be almost guaranteed to be unenjoyable.

    Unfortunately alcohol consumption has become enmeshed with sexual expression in the college age range and beyond. Regrets are almost guaranteed all around. I think a huge number of men and women in America just do not have a healthy relationship with their own sexuality, or that of the opposite sex. It usually improves with age and experience though.

    Susan,

    BTW I know I’m not exactly on board with much of your worldview, but thank you for your courtesy in hosting my comments. I’ve found these threads enjoyable and thought-provoking the last few days.

  • Ted D

    IP – “You must have been in a very relaxed and comfortable mental state. ”

    I was with a young woman I loved and cared about. (As much as a just turned 16yo boy can love of course) It was by no means great sex, and probably not even good. (Lord knows I was done in minutes. But I also made up for it with another two rounds immediately after.) But, and I’m not trying to exaggerate for effect, it was a very deep and emotional experience for me. I was sharing something no other person on planet earth was privy to. A part of me no one else had seen. (And no I don’t mean my penis. Lol). And in that moment (well actually many moments later as I was too busy to reflect immediately…) I knew I could never indiscriminately share it with just any woman. For me there is no greater moment of exposure for my heart and soul than during sex, and it takes an extreme amount of trust in a woman before I can even contemplate opening my inner self up to her, let alone getting naked with her.

    And this is largely why I look around in horror as the vast majority of people (at least in appearance. Could be PI on my part) so nonchalantly sex up any pretty/hot person they encounter that is willing. I cannot imagine sharing so much of myself with someone I hardly know. So either most people are very stupid about exposing themselves to harm, or an awful lot of sex is shallow and worthless. I’m sure you can see why I dont generally hold promiscuous people in high esteem.

  • Ted-

    You know, it’s interesting. If you look at Europe, people have a much more laid back attitude towards sex than in the US. Sex in America is either an issue of profound moral significance, laced with ideas about machismo, self esteem and self worth, OR it’s a blind hedonistic romp-fest. In most of Europe sex is just a part of life. It’s a much more balanced and healthy way of looking at things. I think I read that Europeans have just as much sex as Americans, if not more, but with fewer total partners on average.

    It is these tortured expectations and uncertainties around sex that causes many to drown their issues in alcohol and leads to many of the unfortunate statistics mentioned in the article. (A similar phenomenon is seen in the UK relative to the continent.)

    Personally, I have never attached any deep significance to sex. This was true long before I was a “playboy” (such as it is). I think sex can be many things, depending on the individuals, the moment, the situation. Sometimes it’s a powerful deep connection between them. Sometimes it’s just a way to relieve stress. Sometimes it’s an expression of love, sometimes of lust. Sometimes it’s serious, sometimes it’s hilarious. I don’t think there’s anything right or wrong in any of those, they are all a part of the human experience.

    So basically, it’s not the sex (the physical act), it’s everything else around it that matters.

  • Ted D

    IP – cant sleep so thanks for keeping me company!

    “I don’t think there’s anything right or wrong in any of those, they are all a part of the human experience.”

    I suspect that this may be a profound difference between restricted and unrestricted folks. I simply cannot see sex (for myself at least) as anything less than something to be shared with someone I love. Now I will admit that since finding my way to the Red Pill I’ve found that I can enjoy letting some of that deeper meaning fade into the background and enjoy a more primal sexuality. (For lack of a better term at 1:18 AM) however that comfort is only possible because I’ve already shared every ounce of intimacy I contain with my wife.

    I’ve also found that I can’t go too long without having a “making love” session before the lack of intimacy starts to sour my desire for sex. So as odd as it sounds, my desire for sex is tightly entwined with my desire for emotional intimacy. I can disengage it for a time, but it isn’t something I would ever be satisfied without. And, the less of that intimacy I feel, the less desire I have for sex in general. (Which is why my few stretches of celibacy were mostly tolerable. I had no one to share that intimacy with, therefore I had little desire for sex). Of course meeting a woman that tripped my emotional triggers brought the desire back with a vengeance.

    So I simply can’t comprehend how anyone can see sex as simple recreation, sport, or stress relief. To be completely candid (and to get some TMI cred) rubbing one out is often an overall better stress relief for me than sex. (And the only reason I ever give myself a hand these days.) I suppose having all this emotional stuff attached to sex makes it a bit cumbersome for such use.

    Although a blowjob works nicely for stress relief as well, and at least it’s a team effort!

  • Ha, I’m usually up all night, happy to oblige 🙂

    Sex is emotional for me too, I think it is for all men. Just to a lesser degree than for women in general. But everyone is different. It’s an interesting topic, actually, why some men are more affected by sex than others. I’m sure brain chemistry is part of it.

    I’ve had some interesting sexual experiences. They will all be with me for life. They have each affected me on some level, precisely because I went into it (no pun intended) with an open heart and mind. I do think it’s sad if someone just fucks endlessly like a robot. Usually there are psychological issues at play if that is the case.

    But when you don’t try to label something or force the relationships in a certain direction, it can be very rewarding. Sometimes the best experiences happen when you least expect them.

  • Ya’ll aren’t the only ones who stay up late Ted and Playboy lol!

    Morgan, would you mind if I post your comments on my blog. If you want, I can have you as anonymous. I think that with all the stuff I’ve seen on other blogs in the ‘sphere, your comments puts things in a new light. I especially liked how you connected it with “Eat, Pray, Love” 😛

  • Annie

    Going back to what Mireille said about how does a woman communicate that she wants more. How on earth does a woman do that without coming off as scary? I’m asking the men here.

    Even at 25, I wasn’t comfortable communicating to my husband when we first started dating that I actually wanted to settle down, get married and have children. He, apparently, had me pegged as some hardened, aggressive, career woman with a tattoo or two. Because he had assumed that since “everyone else” was like that, I must be too. But it’s simply not possible to sit at home and be fluffy and bake all day because women have to do something between leaving school/college and getting married in their late twenties.

  • RamblingMadman

    It’s never “just sex”. The very desire itself to pursue sexual intimacy proves this. Our brains are simply hardwired to derive more pleasure from intercourse than it from a strict physical viewpoint most often is, friction between bodies, out of psychological need and evolutionary necessity.

    While some individuals could handle NSA sex better than others it’s just proof that for almost any general human behavior there are individual benefits acting outside it.
    But make no mistake, the simple fact it’s beneficial is because it’s not the norm. It doesn’t imply this behavior is “wrong”. Just that it cannot be made “right” for everyone without also losing the very reason to adopt it.

  • VD

    If you look at Europe, people have a much more laid back attitude towards sex than in the US.

    No, they really don’t. This is an American myth. I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend, but they don’t really do the casual sex thing. Even if they don’t marry, they live in monogamous relationships that last longer than many American marriages.

    About the only time Europeans behave much like Americans is on the last day or two of Carnival. As one Australian drily commented to me during Carnival, “all the young guys at the office are going crazy today because it’s the one night of the year they might actually get laid.”

    Or to quote one gleeful German friend during his first visit to the USA: “I love zee American bitches!”

  • VD:

    Myth? Hardly. You don’t have to embrace casual sex, or polygamous sex, to be more sexually open than Americans. Prostitution is legal or effectively legal all over Europe; gay marriage is the law of the land; marriage has declined and extramarital sex is the norm; teenage sex is accepted willingly; sex education is strongly supported and uncontroversial, as is access to contraception; there is no religious right to speak of; sexual content in movies/ TV is accepted with an open attitude; public nudity is something of a national hobby in Germany… do these facts describe a “conservative” sexual culture?

    Annie:

    how does a woman communicate that she wants more. How on earth does a woman do that without coming off as scary?

    Frankly, any man who is “scared” by a woman who knows what she wants, and confident in herself (whether he is on the same page or not) is not worth your time. Most men probably think women naturally want a little more commitment in general, so it’s almost implied. That’s my 2 cents, FWIW.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    “No, they really don’t. This is an American myth. I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. ”

    Thank you, I very much wanted to live in Europe later in life but had decided against it for this very reason.

    As it turns out, my fears may be unfounded, gives me something to research.

  • setting the record straight

    As an European who lived in America, I can say European people are more sexually liberated in theory (when we speak, the way we think, the laws we create, the TV programs) but more monogamous in practice (in our behavior). Maybe we don’t marry that much but most cohabitations last a lifetime and they are marriages in everything but the name.

    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

  • An old post from Heartiste :

    He asked his women this question :

    “Imagine you could only go to one of two places for vacation. One place is Spain, where you will enjoy coffee at sidewalk cafes while people watching, lounging on beautiful beaches under a warm sun, visiting cultural landmarks and museums, and dancing and drinking away the night in exciting clubs.

    You ride up and down narrow streets on a scooter, eating the best food Spain has to offer and learning to speak a few words of Spanish.

    The other place is Antarctica (Or Patagonia or Tibet. Season to taste.), where you will be alone with the wonder and power of the natural world, your breath taken away by awesome sights and incredible wildlife, giant glaciers loom over you and the rocky beach is filled with penguins and elephant seals.

    You are at one with nature, your stress melting away, and you feel alive. Which vacation do you choose?”

    And what did Heartiste say about the Museum Girls ?

    She is likely to be a status whore
    She is likely to do hard recreational drugs, or think about doing them
    She will be high maintenance
    She likes to dress in sexy clothes
    Her shoes are plentiful and nonfunctional
    She is a raving liberal who loathes rules, timetables, and schedules
    She is spontaneous
    She is flaky
    She is generous of spirit
    She will go out of her way to make sure everyone is having fun
    She is malleable
    She is dependent
    She is admiring
    She is exasperating
    She is a drama queen
    She wants kids, eventually
    She likes cats
    She generally likes people
    She is whimsical
    She is a glib optimist
    She frets
    She cries
    She will expect you to pay
    She loves shopping, especially on your dime
    She cares what kind of car you drive, the shoes you wear, the TV you own
    She will love getting jewelry from you
    She has a lot of superficial yenta screechaholic friends and gay boyfriends
    She prefers making love whenever and wherever the mood strikes
    She is pro-PDA
    She is an attention whore
    She is an incorrigible flirt
    She gets turned on when you ignore her
    She just wants a man who will understand her
    She is more aroused by a man’s social status than by his charm or looks
    She is extraverted
    She hates hates hates betas
    She loves badboys
    She desperately, secretly wishes to submit to a dominant man, in all ways and at all times
    She is more like her mother than her father
    She was popular in high school
    She lost her virginity later in life than you would think
    She is not particularly adventurous, but she is silly fun
    She is a party girl
    She is afraid of food
    She has an anal fixation
    She huffs lurid gossip
    She’ll keep you guessing
    She is ultrafeminine
    She might cheat and you will find out
    She has an STD and will deny if you ask
    She will heal or she will break your heart

    And what did Heartiste say about the Nature Girls ?

    She won’t care very much what you do for a living or how much you make
    She has smoked pot and prefers beer to cosmos
    She will be low maintenance
    She won’t dress sexily very often, and when she does it will seem unnatural on her
    Her shoes are few and functional
    She is a raving liberal who loves rules, timetables, and schedules
    She is a planner
    She is intractable
    She is selfish at heart
    She will go out of her way to make sure she is having fun
    She is set in her ways
    She is independent
    She is circumspect
    She is reliable
    She is serenity now
    She is often adamant about not wanting kids
    She likes dogs
    She generally hates people
    She is grounded
    She is a cynical fatalist
    She compartmentalizes
    She snarks
    She will almost always pay half, without hesitation
    She hates shopping, and has few yuppie possessions
    She hates materialism and prefers items with “character” instead of “price tag”
    She will love getting homemade cards from you
    She has no gay boyfriends and the few friends she has are nerdy
    She prefers making love in the bedroom
    She is anti-PDA
    She avoids drawing attention to herself
    She doesn’t know how to flirt
    She gets annoyed if she thinks you aren’t listening to her
    She just wants a man who will respect her
    She is more aroused by a man’s personality and looks than by his social status
    She is introverted
    She tolerates betas
    She is wary of badboys
    She hates controlling men, but will often wish a man would take the initiative and lead instead of her doing it all the time
    She is more like her father than her mother
    She was invisible in high school
    She lost her virginity earlier in life than you would think
    She is adventurous, but not silly fun
    She is a spiritual girl
    She loves eating
    She has an oral fixation
    She relishes moments of solitude and silence
    She’ll keep you wondering if you can do better
    She has some masculine personality traits
    She might cheat and you won’t find out
    She has an STD and will admit it if you ask
    She will heal or she will break your soul

    I suspect it’s the Museum Girls that made the bulk of Suzan’s respondents in all the studies she cited. So where are the Nature Girls then ?

    Now if you’re a Nature Girl and you can identify some traits of a Museum Girl within you, then all I can say is this :

    If you’ve had a few beers, and go outside, and then see an big white kitty running towards you, please remove your Jimmy Choo’s … that way you might just outrun the Siberian Tiger …

    But if you’re Museum Girl, and for some obscure reason, you can identify some traits of a Nature Girl within you, then all I can say is this :

    If you find yourself somewhat intoxicated after baring your soul to a wonderful man, and then in a delicate situation where you’re roaring like a lion, but your ass is starting to feel so good … remember to thank that wonderful witchdoctor for the strong laxatives ‘medicines’ he gave you …

  • jack

    This, of course, is why I am not interested in marrying a woman with an N much higher than 3.

    The effects on her psyche are just not something I care to deal with.

    Date them? Bring all the N you got! I don’t care. But marriage is too big a risk to my future to engage in it.

  • LJ

    Why would you date someone you’d never consider marrying? That just runs up your “N,” if you care about that stuff.

  • angelguy

    “Why would you date someone you’d never consider marrying?”

    Short-term, they are often the ones that will put out.
    Long-term, they are trouble.

  • LJ

    If you can’t find someone to put out who you could see being serious about, you should improve yourself or reconsider your priorities in a partner, IMO.

    I just think getting into a dead-end relationship, where the other person has a dealbreaker for you — religion, high partner count, etc– is dumb.

  • Sassy6519

    Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.

  • angelguy

    “Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.”

    @sassy

    I have to agree with you there, we all don’t have the option of being that picky, and patience to wait for Mr or Mrs. Perfect for me to come along.

    “If you can’t find someone to put out who you could see being serious about, you should improve yourself or reconsider your priorities in a partner”

    @L.J.
    I think improving ones self is always a good idea, not for a partner, but for ones self. But one also has to accept the fact that the reasons they gets rejected may have nothing to do with who they are, how much they make or how they look.

  • Re : Frustated Black American Men in Brazil.

    I can understand why Obsidian says that the black community is the canary in the coalmine.

  • angelguy

    “I haven’t followed the Brazil convo closely, and didn’t view the link, but I will emphatically state that I support people finding love wherever they choose, and wherever they can. I don’t see what national borders have to do with it, or why it’s anyone else’s business.

    There is a young family on my street which is pretty obviously a mail-order bride situation – he’s older, and she’s young and Vietnamese. They have a beautiful little boy and seem extremely happy together. It seems to me that’s what we want more of – stable, productive families.”

    @ Susan

    I agree with you there.

    I noticed the looking for love across borders has been a Male thing on this thread.
    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

  • Sai

    Crapshoot~
    No, it’s worse than a crapshoot. Hey gambling people, what game has worse odds than a crapshoot?

  • Escoffier

    Not that I am a gambler, but they say craps has the best odds of any game in the casino.

  • Sue: “In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.”

    See, this is the good stuff here. Comparing the casual numbers to relationship numbers bolsters the case much better than an isolated number. I’ve harped on this many times, thanks for digging it out.

    Though, it probably would be better to compare first-time relationship sex vs. first-time casual, to illustrate the effect of a hookup. That aside, it’s clear you’ll have a better sex life with a long-term partner.

    (Although stating “men reached orgasm more often than women” is sort of pointless. Sure, men come easier, but have much less capacity for multiples. Given what I’ve seen, I think women have the better end of the deal, here.)

    • (Although stating “men reached orgasm more often than women” is sort of pointless. Sure, men come easier, but have much less capacity for multiples. Given what I’ve seen, I think women have the better end of the deal, here.)

      Not the 32% who didn’t even come once. The truth is, the ability to orgasm and frequency of orgasm varies highly among women. 80% do not come from intercourse alone. The lower oral sex numbers don’t look so promising for those women.

      Based on what you’ve said here, it would be highly erroneous for you to extrapolate the general experience of women from the highly orgasmic, breastgasmic, simultaneousgasmic Mrs. OTC.

  • Susan #66, exactly. She is a physiological outlier, and saying we got the better end of the deal is like saying the lottery jackpot winner got the better end of the deal than the person who worked hard and didn’t become a millionaire.

  • J

    But it’s simply not possible to sit at home and be fluffy and bake all day because women have to do something between leaving school/college and getting married in their late twenties.

    Historically, there was only a brief window in time where that was possible. A miniscule number of women have lived out the 1950’s image of ladylike housewife in heels baking in a clean, modern kitchen. More women never went school, married young and were old ladies worn down by the stresses of many children and poor nutrition by their late twenties. In pictures taken in the 1940s, both my immigrant grandmothers look 80-90 while actually being 50-60. And one, a mother of nine, actually balanced “being fluffy” with keeping the family’s grocery store open while my grandfather worked a second job.

    I was a kid in the 1950s, and none of the moms I knew IRL ever looked like these:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=1950s+housewife&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4TSNJ_enUS445US445&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oyk6Uf7nNMXw0QHe9oGADg&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1093&bih=454

  • J

    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

    My huisband who, as a kid, spent many years on military bases in the Bible Belt, characterizes it as “Drunk and cheating on Saturday night, repentent on Sunday morning.” Lots of Church, lots of backsliding. Yet, I do think there is a core of moderate, middle class American mores that is being ignored here. The hook-up scene, while highly visible, is statistically smaller than it is being portrayed here.

  • Come on, you’re getting punchy, even when I agree with you. Truce?

    I’m not extrapolating from or to anything, or bragging. Just stating the hopefully obvious fact women have a far greater *capacity* for orgasm than men do, whether it’s realized or not, whatever it’s method it’s attained from. Women don’t have refractory periods.

    If I were female and needed oral, I’d damn well insist on it. (How many men refuse? Are they crazy?) And If I needed a vibrator, heck, I can pick a “personal massager” at the corner drugstore. I mean, what excuse is there? I say, take control and assert your desires.

    We’ve joked in the past what it would be like to switch sex for the day, remember? That would be the first thing on my list. Multiple orgasm with no waiting!

    • @OTC

      Nah, I wasn’t punchy, I was kidding around. However, I maintain that you don’t have a good understanding of the typical female experience, since you are married to a highly atypical female. For example, I have a definite refractory period – not the same as a man’s – but such incredible sensitivity after orgasm I need to give my nerve endings time to calm down before even thinking about more stimulation. When my husband was young his period was shorter than mine!

      I think if you could measure all the orgasms in the female and male orgasm buckets, the male buckets would have many more. There are something like 20% of women who can’t even orgasm alone 🙁 the female orgasm is actually highly unreliable compared to the male’s.

      Another issue is that men view giving various kinds of orgasms as some sort of contest. You have proudly (and repeatedly) shown us your Female Ejaculation, Breastgasm, and G-Spot Badges, for example. This serves as a sort of misinformation that makes many women feel like they just can’t produce the orgasm the man is hell bent on giving them. Nearly all the questions I get from women about sex are of this type: “My boyfriend is trying so hard to give me a G-spot orgasm but I don’t feel anything there! What is wrong with me?” Women are being barraged with these male expectations around sexual performance! To the men I say, “Back off!”

      Finally, I find that most men are not even well-informed about the physiology. The orgasm is clitoral. Period. It may be stimulated from any source potentially – some women can achieve orgasm just by thinking about it. But the waves of contractions occur at the clitoris and radiate outward from there. It’s not surprising there are so many myths – hucksters make YouTube videos and advertise on porn sites.

      And of course, even to this day, there is not consensus among sex scientists about some female responses, including female ejaculation. For example, scientists suggest that the liquid comes from the bladder and is about a thimbleful at most. These videos that show women releasing large amounts of liquid are showing either urination or perhaps the release of having been pumped full of water!

      In short, female orgasmic response is not a male accomplishment, and I don’t believe it is healthy for women when it is treated as such.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan, Hope and OTC

    I agree that women span a variety of orgasmic capabilities.

    I will point out that the man can play a huge role too in “assisting” the woman psychologically, emotionally and physically to have better orgasms.

    I think that every man should learn a lot more about what turns on women in general and his specific woman in particular and help her reach her orgasmic potential, whatever the boundaries on that might be. Without becoming needy, men should take pleasure in pleasing their wife or gf and not just do the 10 minute hip shake and go to sleep.

    At the risk of TMI, something I have been waaaaaaaay guilty of lately, I will briefly share that one woman I was with wasn’t able to orgasm with most of the handful of other men she’d been with. I took it as a challenge to figure her out. It took some work and some “scientific” experimentation 😉 but we figured out what worked and she was quite grateful and happy.

    I think men should have the courage to explore to find out what she likes, but from the frame of doing it because he wants to turn her on, not from a pedastalizing hoping that they will be able to turn her on so that she won’t be tempted to leave him (the fear a guy might have, not that she is necessarily thinking that). They shouldn’t go overboard and start being needy about it. This exploring her desires shouldn’t be all or even most of the time, but maybe every third time or something (and then once you find something that works do that a lot with a little further exploration added in from time to time). A lot of the time he should just do what he likes (assuming it’s not hurting her) because women, IME, really love when their man go wild with desire for her.

    Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.

    But men are a huge part of the equation and if they became better lovers they could certainly help their partner a huge amount.

    • @HanSolo

      Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.

      Sometimes there are psychological barriers, and sometimes it’s a lack of experience. But often women are simply not built to experience the full range of orgasms they reportedly should be capable of.

      I think it’s great that a man wants to help a woman feel pleasure during sex, however she defines that. Most women can enjoy sex very much at times without having an orgasm at all. Since women generally want sex less frequently than men, a loving wife who always says yes is sometimes in it for your sake. She may be more interested in pleasing you, enjoying the intimacy and going to sleep than staying up till one in the morning for multiple orgasms, lol.

  • Angelguy

    “If I were female and needed oral, I’d damn well insist on it. (How many men refuse? Are they crazy?) And If I needed a vibrator, heck, I can pick a “personal massager” at the corner drugstore. I mean, what excuse is there? I say, take control and assert your desires.”

    @Off the Cuff

    I wish I know more women that thought like you.

    Feel she got picked on a bitmuch in that other post.

  • Lokland

    Just a couple thoughts on orgasm potential.

    Orgasm produces chemicals (oxytocin) that increase bonding.
    More women orgasm during sex within the context of a relationship than without which suggests that the female orgasm may have developed as a way to ensure bonding and thus fidelity. (Which lens credence to the Dad>Cad theory.)

    Some other more practical applications, the more a woman orgasms, the more bonded she is to the guy in question.

    From this we could infer (hypothetically) that highly orgasmic women are more faithful than less orgasmic women. (Which would also explain the very high male desire to have a woman that orgasms. Sometimes to a pathological degree of need, as HS mentioned.)

    As the final inference, we can infer that a women who has less orgasms is therefore more likely to cheat or is simply not attracted to the man in question.

    It would also mean that the less orgasmic women are also those least likely to be faithful in a relationship or pursue STM. (As seen by the difference in orgasm quantity between the two groups.)

    —-

    This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect,
    instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

    If this is true, its far better to choose a women who shatters glass than one who does not.

    • @Lokland

      This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect,
      instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

      This is a very interesting hypothesis!

      How does that square with promiscuous women often having higher T? If they can “have sex like a man” because they are like a man, shouldn’t they orgasm readily?

      And if they didn’t, why would they actually enjoy all that casual sex? I’m talking here about the 25% of women who seek casual sex habitually and do not appear to regret it.

      There are two other things I wonder about:

      1. Orgasm via masturbation also produces oxytocin.

      2. Oxytocin floods men as well after orgasm – not sure how this works with the finding that male attraction to the female decreases after his orgasm.

  • Escoffier

    Lok, I have reason to believe that is true but I am not sure I want to give any details.

  • Joe

    @Sassy

    Some people are just really desperate, so they will take whatever they can get. Beggars can’t be choosers, and being picky isn’t much of an option for people with lower SMV.

    Heh! I say this in all kindness, Sassy, but you’re dead wrong.

    Gee, I used to walk around calling myself a “choosy beggar!” It was a plaintive cry to the wind and to anyone who would put up with me that “wwwwaaaaaaa! – I’m not haaaappppyyyyy!” (See? Men do it too.)

    I was always amazed by the denizens of the long-dead usenet who’d complain that they could never find a good man in one breath, and then say with the next that “Yup. I need to raise my standards and be choosier about who I go out with!” Choosy beggars are a dime a dozen.

    What you really mean to say is that even beggars can be choosy, but they’re going to be frustrated and unhappy – right? It’s harder to realize that frustration and unhappiness are emotions that come from within, not from without, like a cute guy who asks you out on a date or a cute girl who smiles at you.

    It takes some time to learn that frustration and unhappiness are not things you can avoid like a pile of dog excrement on the pavement. They are just states of mind.

    People with a low SMV can be picky. Sometimes they’re just more careful with the things they’re picky about.

  • J

    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

    I think that, in ethnic communities that maintain ties with friends and relatives in the old country, it’s not uncommon for American born women to marry foreign borm men of the same origins. Often those men will settle in US because life is better here. I don’t think many women say to themselves “I hear that men is X or Y third world country make good husbands, so I’ll go there.” In fact, I would suppose that overall that’s a bad deal for women. No women who has the economic resources to do that sort of travel is going to want to live in the economically disadvantaged third world, especially in places where women have fewer rights. In contrast, a Russian, Asian or South American bride who comes to the West will most often lead a freer and more prosperous life in the West than she would have otherwise.

  • J

    Multiple orgasm with no waiting!

    Unfortunately, orgasms are not equally distributed across the female population. Your wife seems to be a far end of the curve, but there are plenty of middle-aged women who even after decades of marriage have not experienced ONE orgasm. In a juster world, women like your wife would donate their surplus orgasms to those women. In fact, come the revolution, they will have to. From each according to her ability to each according to her need!!!

  • Abbot

    Yet another feminist propaganda message under the guise of “compassion” when in fact its meant to get everyone to be seen as a blank slate directed only by autonomy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2GIu5ZpnTM&feature=player_embedded

    .

  • HanSolo “I will point out that the man can play a huge role too in “assisting” the woman psychologically, emotionally and physically to have better orgasms.”

    Yes this is true. My husband is the only one who was able to give me real orgasms, and a big part of that is psychological/emotional.

    Lokland “instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.”

    I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.”

    Problem with this is that the numbers clearly show the opposite trend to be true.

    I’ve held this hypothesis for quite a while and have a few other supporting details that I left out.

    If people want it, my narcissist will be happy to deliver.

    @Esc

    I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

  • As an European who lived in America, I can say European people are more sexually liberated in theory (when we speak, the way we think, the laws we create, the TV programs) but more monogamous in practice (in our behavior). Maybe we don’t marry that much but most cohabitations last a lifetime and they are marriages in everything but the name.
    American people are more Puritan in theory (they speak about family values, God, relationships, they don’t like gay marriage, etc) but more promiscuous in practice (hook-up scene, high divorce rate, cheating being more prevalent, etc).

    THIS!

    I suspect it’s the Museum Girls that made the bulk of Suzan’s respondents in all the studies she cited. So where are the Nature Girls then ?
    I hated the Antarctica scenario. Antarctica is pretty cold you know? I hate the cold. This test is not as accurate as it claims to be, IMO>

    I’m not extrapolating from or to anything, or bragging. Just stating the hopefully obvious fact women have a far greater *capacity* for orgasm than men do, whether it’s realized or not, whatever it’s method it’s attained from. Women don’t have refractory periods.
    I think this might be an spectrum and fewer women are capable of multiples than the other way around. It might also be needed a combo of genetic compatibility, deep relationship and the right environment. Given the reports of how different women experiment ‘the big O’

  • Lokland

    @J

    On the Western women- foreign man thing.

    I think there is negative selection from both parties.
    The women for the economic (hyperaemic) reasons you stated.

    Another factor is that American women (specifically whites and blacks) are globally regarded as the sluttiest women in existence who are DTF.

    I’ve heard this opinion from a lot of men, who strangely, have never actually fucked an American women.

    But still, most would want the sex but not to actually commit based upon the global image American women have.

    So, its a case where both groups, really don’t want anything to do with one another (for the long-term).

  • Lokland, what numbers are you talking about? If I were having casual sex, I’m positive I wouldn’t have an orgasm. Then again I never have had casual sex. I knew that casual sex would have zero positive net outcome for me. But if a woman can easily achieve orgasm with any man, then for her having casual sex would be fun even without any emotional bonding. She’d get hers no matter what. See what I mean?

  • Then again this theory of mine is mostly based on my own past difficulty in orgasming with guys even in relationships, and reading a handful of female sex bloggers who were all about casual sex and touted their highly orgasmic abilities. One mentioned squirting. So it’s not a representative sample.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “Lokland, what numbers are you talking about? ”

    From Susan’s post.

    “19. Men reached orgasm more often than women. In first-time hookups, 31 percent of men and 10 percent of women reached orgasm; in last relationship sexual activity, 85 percent of men and 68 percent of women reached orgasm.”

    “She’d get hers no matter what. See what I mean?”

    Numbers above show that this is very clearly not the case. Girlfriends have orgasms, sluts get fucked.

    So, I follow your logic, it just doesn’t hold in the real world.

    • @Lokland

      It’s very clear in the research that college guys fuck sluts and don’t give two shits about their orgasms. My guess is that 80% of casual sex is straight jackhammer. Even a girl who is crazy in love is not going to orgasm with a guy who’s getting off with another warm body in the room.

  • I actually personally theorize that women who love casual sex are those who can have vaginal orgasms easily. But I could be totally off since there is no study that has been done about this.
    Since I belong to that club I can say that is probably more complex. I never worried too much about sexual compatibility because I knew I don’t need a HUGE production to get off so I could place it on secondary level and be attracted to what my partner and I will be doing the majority of time: character, compatibility level of geekness… Many of my friends did a lot of crazy things to have a particularly jerkish guy and tolerated a lot of crap from them, because ‘I don’t know if I will ever feel this way again’ talking about a strong attraction that promised head spinning orgasms, so dunno there most be something else at work, YMMV.

  • J

    This was a very long winded way of saying that you may be reversing cause-and-effect, instead of relationship sex being better than casual sex it might simply be that relationship women are more capable of orgasm than non-relationship women.

    It seems to me that “relationship women” fall in the middle of the curve. The woman who can have an orgasm any time, any place, any where, with anyone, probably will. The woman who can’t have one easily in a relationship will either seek another relationship or give up entirely with sex becoming a chore within the relationship. The woman who is satified by her partner and not by non-relationship sex will most likely stay put.

  • J: “there are plenty of middle-aged women who even after decades of marriage have not experienced ONE orgasm.”

    I know I’m spoiled, I can see multiples being uncommon with a partner, but I wasn’t talking about that necessarily. But (and correct me if I’m wrong), women should know their body well enough to do it to themselves.

  • Escoffier

    Well, to both Hope and Lok, not sure about that. Purely anecdotal and case study of one but …

    My college GF had some hook-ups before she met me. Then she went (as it were) VolCel for a long time (two years, I think). She told me that she had not orgasmed with the hook-ups. You might object that she was lying and of course I have no way of knowing but she was, in general, close to the most guileless person I have never met. She lied to me only one time in more than 3 years and felt so bad she came clean within days. That was very early on. Never happened again, or if it did, I never found out. Also never had any reason to be suspicious.

    Anyway, she orgasmed VERY easily. Over and over, too. The bond was strong. The breakup was painful (for her).

    I have other anectodal evidence to support the theory but will leave it at that for now.

  • Lokland actually only a small % of women are highly orgasmic and able to have one no matter what, so the 10% figure makes sense.

    So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.

    Put it another way, most women are not highly orgasmic and need a lot more “work” to get to an orgasm, and so they can have them in relationships because men will put in that work.

  • Hope: “My husband is the only one who was able to give me real orgasms, and a big part of that is psychological/emotional.”

    This is exactly the same as how our relationship started, and is now.

    But, you should know, that her vaunted sensitivity now is the progressive result of 20 years of emotional bonding. Married sex just keeps getting better and better, even compared to just 5 years ago. You’ve got a lifetime to look forward to.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland and Hope

    I agree that orgasm helps women bond.

    Let’s look at it this way. The woman who doesn’t orgasm easily but then finds that man who can help her achieve real orgasms (kind of like Hope) will bond much more to that man than the woman who is able to orgasm easily with a wider array of men. So, I don’t necessarily agree that easy-to-orgasm women are more able to bond.

    Also, I think that to whatever extent orgasm aids the sperm in moving upstream and fertilize that that could provide a woman in a promiscuous environment the ability to help the sperm of the man that best pushes her buttons better. If the man just doesn’t cut it she’s less likely to orgasm, relative to herself (not relative to other women).

    Ever heard the phrase “10’s are the worst in bed?” lol A woman told me that one, getting at the point that if the woman is higher in value than the man (or thinks she is) that she just won’t get excited and so it can have something to do with their relative perceived rankings.

    Also, the nervous lower status guy that orgasms quickly without turning her on and getting her to cum is less likely to impregnate her (assuming orgasm helps and I’ve read it does but not sure if it really does).

    The confident “alpha” that wasn’t afraid of some other guy to knock him off of her could take his time and she would gradually warm up and more likely orgasm with that guy than with the 4-minute man. Perhaps the harder to excite trait of the hotter woman is a weeding-out mechanism.

    Just a few ideas to add to the mix. Thoughts?

  • Escoffier, if she was in love with you, that makes sense.

    Love is what gets women who aren’t normally orgasmic (i.e in hookup situations) to achieve it in relationships.

    When both people are in love, it’s total fireworks. I have simultaneous ones with my husband. I didn’t think it was possible, especially given my prior difficulties.

  • Rhen

    Does it really require satisfying/orgasmic sex to get the oxytocin-bonding effect, or JUST sex, however mediocre? What about all those relationships in past centuries where most men supposedly didn’t know how to do foreplay right, or at all…did bonding not take place if there were no or few female orgasms?

    Also what about orgasms that don’t involve penetration, as with a hot and heavy hookup? Do these have the same bonding effect as PIV?

    Wonder if these questions have ever been studied.

  • Jesse

    Pretty sure men can have multiple orgasms as well.

    I have semi-kinda-sorta done this, but I haven’t practiced enough. I just have more important things to practice in my life than masturbation.

    —–

    Also, weird story for you folks: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the-bikini-model-and-the-suitcase-full-of-trouble.html?hp&hp&_r=1&

  • Rhen, I’m skeptical of oxytocin. The machine that pumps my milk helps me produce oxytocin, but I’m not bonded to it. 😛

    HanSolo, I have thought of those as well. However, on Wikipedia there is the nonadaptive hypothesis, and mentions the “relative difficulty of achieving female orgasm through vaginal sex” and “the limited evidence for increased fertility after orgasm.”

  • Jesse

    Regarding vaginal orgasms, has anybody tried this David Shade deep spot bullshit? Google it, I don’t want smut on my computer…

  • Ted D

    Damn I must be spoiled too. I am in not trying to brag (since my N of 4 isn’t a very good pool to sample from), but I’ve never had an issue with a LTR mate having issues getting an O.

    Since I’m already in TMI territory since last night (I get slap happy when I’m tired and can’t sleep.) I’ve watched my wife rub one out for herself in under 2 minutes. If she wants an orgasm during sex, she has one. I can count on one hand with fingers left over the times since we started having sex that getting her an orgasm took real effort.

    She is by far the most orgasmic of my LTR mates, but of all the things they complained about to me, it was never that the sex sucked.

    LOL maybe I am bragging. *shrug*

  • Ted D “I’ve watched my wife rub one out for herself in under 2 minutes.”

    A lot of women can do fine by themselves but have trouble with someone else. I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done), but still can’t get anywhere with a guy during the act itself. So I think there is definitely something very psychological going on with it.

  • It’s not like either of us went in, trying to make it happen. We had no idea until it did. It was more like “oh, that happened years ago… THAT’S what it was? Hey, can we do it again, intentionally?” Thanks to the internet, we’ve been able to educate ourselves and make good things better. If people take my statements as some sort of challenge that’s on them.

    Does it work the other way around? Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?

    • Does it work the other way around? Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?

      I’ve seen men here on the threads admit that rather sheepishly, so I guess it happens.

      In general, I think there’s a ton of focus in our culture on sexual performance. Anxiety about it hampers orgasm, for both men and women, so the less we pressure people to live up to a porn standard, the better sex we’ll all be having, IMO.

      For example, women in porn scream a lot, saying, “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls. Women have told me that their boyfriends shared disappointment that they weren’t more vocal during sex. Young guys are also often astounded to learn that many women don’t beg for anal. I even know one couple where after months of his pulling out to ejaculate on her face, she complained, and he was astounded to learn that wasn’t the typical female preference!

      Seriously, things are wacked in the SMP, especially for the kids. Porn has done such a number on men, and by association, on women.

      Andrew of Rules Revisited, who I like a lot, has one post where he gives women the best angles to assume during sex and how much they should arch their backs so that they look best to their partners. And the women are taking that very seriously. I can tell you that a woman who is thinking, “OK, 3/4 turn here, back arched, flip hair back now” is NOT building to an orgasm!

      Every couple who gets together should lock themselves in for 48 hours and spend the whole weekend in bed, with brief breaks for meals. The goal is to learn the other person’s body and how the two of you work best together. I hope Cooper is planning something like this. 🙂

      • It’s also clear in the research that men believe women had orgasms or were highly stimulated when they didn’t. There is great discrepancy when women and men report whether the females climaxed.

        Sorry, guys: Up to 80 percent of women admit faking it

        In Brewer’s survey, more than 25 percent of women routinely used vocalization to fake it. They did it about 90 percent of the time they realized they would not climax. About 80 percent faked using vocalizations about half the time they were unable to have an orgasm.

        Women do this because their men are so goal-directed they won’t stop until a woman climaxes, the authors say.

        That does not surprise Charlene Muehlenhard, professor of clinical psychology at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. In a 2009 study she co-authored in the Journal of Sex Research, called “Men’s and Women’s Reports of Pretending Orgasm,” she explored the idea that men and women tend to follow scripted roles. Men are supposed to give a woman an orgasm “and her orgasm proves the quality of his work,” she said. Because women do not ejaculate, men have to rely on some other outward sign, like a woman singing “Oh Sweet Mystery of Life!” (“Young Frankenstein”) to know we’ve done our job.

        So women vocalize as a way of saying “attaboy” even if they weren’t all that excited. As one woman told Muehlenhard, “I pretended to have an orgasm so that my partner would [finish]. He couldn’t [finish] until I orgasmed.”

        And re those porn vocalizations:

        A study released last month in the Archives of Sexual Behavior shows that those seemingly uncontrollable “ohmigods” during apparent orgasm are often play-acting meant to “manipulate” men.

        The scientists asked women between the ages of 18 and 48 a series of questions. They broke down the vocalizations into categories that included “silence,” “moan/groan,” “scream/shriek/squeal,” “words” (such as “Yes!” or the partner’s name, and “instructional commands” like “more.” Other questions asked why the women made the vocalizations and at what point they themselves had an orgasm, if they had an orgasm at all, and, if not, why they were doing all that shouting.

        Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.

        In other words, the sounds the women emitted were not because they were out-of-control excited. Indeed, when they were most excited, say during oral sex when they were more likely to have an orgasm, they didn’t do much of the old scream-n-shout.

        Rather, it was a tactic they used to induce their man to do something, like get it over with. In most cases, they were also trying to be nice. “Importantly, 92 percent of participants felt very strongly that these vocalizations boosted their partner’s self-esteem,” the paper stated, “and 87 percent reported using them for this purpose,” like the hilarious scene from the 1975 movie “The Stepford Wives”: “You’re the king, Frank!”

        One young woman told me that her boyfriend tried so hard to get her to orgasm, that if she came close but no cigar he’d berate himself: “Dammit, I’m 0 for 2!”

        This goal directed sex has got to go. I don’t write about sex much here, but this is a huge topic in my focus groups and in emails I receive.

  • Hope: “I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done).”

    This is what I was talking about, before you all piled on – would be awesome to experience.

  • OTC “Should men feel bad if women want to give them a BJ and they don’t like it as much as everyone says they should?”

    My husband never had an orgasm from BJs until me, and he didn’t like them much. Maybe I just have great enthusiasm and technique?

    Anyway, thanks for saying that it gets better with the years. Something to look forward to!

  • I hated the Antarctica scenario. Antarctica is pretty cold you know? I hate the cold. This test is not as accurate as it claims to be, IMO>

    Try again.

  • J

    But (and correct me if I’m wrong), women should know their body well enough to do it to themselves.

    I think some can have an orgasm alone, but not with a partner.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan, I agree that each woman will have some range of what she’s capable of. My main point is that some/many women could approach the higher limit of her range under the right circumstances and that might be somewhat higher than what she thinks based on past experience.

    This is exemplified by Hope’s experience, of how being with the right man with emotional stability and love allowed her to experience things beyond what she did before and perhaps beyond what she thought possible previously.

    Of course, this shouldn’t be taken too far to place unrealistic expectations on women or men.

    Regarding the g-spot and other inner vaginal spots, from reading and personal experience with women, you can’t just go in cold. You have to “pre-heat” the woman and get her quite excited before those spots awaken. I’m not saying what % of women will respond to this–I don’t know, maybe a good many can’t even under optimal circumstances–just reporting what I’ve seen.

  • J

    @Marellus #50

    Sometimes Heartiste reads like Cosmo for guys.

  • J

    @Ted #39

    Sweet post!

  • Every couple who gets together should lock themselves in for 48 hours and spend the whole weekend in bed, with brief breaks for meals. The goal is to learn the other person’s body and how the two of you work best together.
    My guess this is why the ancient invented the honeymoon right after the wedding. 😉

    • My guess this is why the ancient invented the honeymoon right after the wedding.

      Haha you are right, I didn’t even think of that! There used to be something called Honeymoon Cystitis. And of course the poor couple would be wincing when they walked by about day 4.

  • Ted D

    Hope – 5 in an hour? I’ve never been so jealous of female sexuality…

    Yeah I’m sure solo is far different than team sports (as it is for men). I can go from start to finish flying solo in 5 minutes or less if I’m pressed for time. Of course that is partly because I’m not looking to enjoy the experience, I’m trying to get it done so I can move on.

  • Sometimes [ awww, you should read that blog more ] Heartiste reads [… more than you … heh] like Cosmo [Brown?] for guys.[ I’m singing in the rain ]

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    My theory (non-scientifc usage) is really just a large collection of thoughts/ideas that have dots connected between them.

    Theres probably a million and one inconsistencies that need to be worked out before it flows in a way I find acceptable.

    Guess I have something to do this weekend.

    I’ll write it out in Word and post it here after working it out fully (and I will address your concerns).

    • @Lokland

      Thanks, I’m very interested in your thoughts. If true, that would reveal a great deal! I wonder if any research has been done on this…

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.”

    This is an overstatement of my point.

    I’m not sure if you understand the concept of genetic liability thresholds but a similar idea can apply here.

    Basically theres is X amount of orgasm (or whatever) that needs to be achieved to maintain fidelity. Obviously the high orgasm women get this with one man easily (and go above and beyond the necessity, others might scrape it.)

    But fidelity is dichotomous, you either cheat or you don’t (in the PinV sense).

    So thats where you place the required X, values below are cheaters, values above are faithful.

  • If anyone would have suggested a 48-hour sex-a-thon to me a few years ago, I would have thought they were sex-obsessed hedonists. What’s the hurry? Gonna break up? (Not now, obviously.)

    • If anyone would have suggested a 48-hour sex-a-thon to me a few years ago, I would have thought they were sex-obsessed hedonists.

      In my case it was not a planned activity, just the most fun we could think of having on the weekend in the early days…I think it falls under the heading of “I can’t get enough of you.”

      Sex, sleep, sex, peanut butter on crackers, sex, pillow talk, cinnamon toast, sex, nap, tomato soup and grilled cheese, sex, nap, etc.

  • Ted D “I’ve never been so jealous of female sexuality…”

    Honestly it’s nothing great. Any of the ones I have with my husband beats them all out of the park. I don’t do anything without him because it’s a shame to waste my energy on anything else. 😛

  • Ted D

    Susan – its easy to fix that need for faking: just tell your mate you aren’t interested in an orgasm and just want him to enjoy himself. I have no problem knocking out a quickie if my wife isn’t up for the full Monte, as long as she is still enthusiastic about the sex. (Which she is). In fact, sometimes she teases me during those quickies just to see how quickly she can make me pop. She always gets the best of me, and I don’t mind a bit. 😉

    • @Ted

      Quickies are an important part of married life!

      I advise young women never to fake it, no matter how uncomfortable. It can be very awkward for them, but a girl who does this is backing herself into a corner. I had one relationship that I ultimately had to end because the sex was bad and I’d pretended it was good. There was just no way to reveal that what he’d been doing all that time didn’t get the job done after I’d pretended otherwise. And I was too shy (Imagine that) to ask for what I really did like.

      I agree with those who say a woman is responsible for her own orgasms. There are many ways to help a guy learn your body when there is intimacy and trust. This is why I’ve always assumed they are harder to come by during hookups.

  • J

    I’m not actually a fan of Cosmo, Marellus. I find the “lists and quizzes” approach to relationships somewhat reductive and fatuous.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Joe

    Heh! I say this in all kindness, Sassy, but you’re dead wrong.

    Gee, I used to walk around calling myself a “choosy beggar!” It was a plaintive cry to the wind and to anyone who would put up with me that “wwwwaaaaaaa! – I’m not haaaappppyyyyy!” (See? Men do it too.)

    I was always amazed by the denizens of the long-dead usenet who’d complain that they could never find a good man in one breath, and then say with the next that “Yup. I need to raise my standards and be choosier about who I go out with!” Choosy beggars are a dime a dozen.

    What you really mean to say is that even beggars can be choosy, but they’re going to be frustrated and unhappy – right? It’s harder to realize that frustration and unhappiness are emotions that come from within, not from without, like a cute guy who asks you out on a date or a cute girl who smiles at you.

    It takes some time to learn that frustration and unhappiness are not things you can avoid like a pile of dog excrement on the pavement. They are just states of mind.

    People with a low SMV can be picky. Sometimes they’re just more careful with the things they’re picky about.

    I’m not wrong necessarily. I think that you have come at this from a very different standpoint.

    When I say that beggars can’t be choosers, I mean that people in positions that do not afford them the power of choice accept whatever they are given. Whenever a homeless person approaches someone on the street for money, do you think that they ask for $100? $1,000? No, they don’t. Doing so would get them nowhere. They aren’t in a position of power to demand, or even get, what they want. Instead, they simply ask for money, any amount of money. Often they ask for spare change, or maybe a few dollars. They do that because they know that the people with money to give away (the people in power) have the upper hand. The people with money are more willing to part with mere change, but I highly doubt that they would ever agree to the demands of beggars for large sums of money. Why would they have to? They have the power, and they can give the beggars crumbs without so much as a second thought.

    The same goes for people with lower SMV. They may try to demand the world from romantic partners, or be very picky, but they won’t get very far. An ugly man would be stupid to holdout for a beauty queen. An ugly woman would be stupid to holdout for an Adonis. The odds of them getting such people is quite low. It may be mean to say, but it’s the truth.

    They don’t have much power to demand more, and actually have their requests fulfilled. They would be much better served to either improve themselves to a point that they acquire more power (and thereby use the power to demand more realistically) or they lower their standards to an acceptable level. Instead of going for Adonises and beauty queens, they accept equally low SMV counterparts.

    As I said before, desperation will make people accept what they can get. The beggar may not be able to get $100 from a person on the street, but they’ll make due with a few dollars. The low SMV individual may not be able to get someone that they would ideally want, but they’ll make due with a comparable individual who is willing to accept them as they are.

  • Sassy6519

    The scientists asked women between the ages of 18 and 48 a series of questions. They broke down the vocalizations into categories that included “silence,” “moan/groan,” “scream/shriek/squeal,” “words” (such as “Yes!” or the partner’s name, and “instructional commands” like “more.” Other questions asked why the women made the vocalizations and at what point they themselves had an orgasm, if they had an orgasm at all, and, if not, why they were doing all that shouting.

    Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.

    In other words, the sounds the women emitted were not because they were out-of-control excited. Indeed, when they were most excited, say during oral sex when they were more likely to have an orgasm, they didn’t do much of the old scream-n-shout.

    Rather, it was a tactic they used to induce their man to do something, like get it over with. In most cases, they were also trying to be nice. “Importantly, 92 percent of participants felt very strongly that these vocalizations boosted their partner’s self-esteem,” the paper stated, “and 87 percent reported using them for this purpose,” like the hilarious scene from the 1975 movie “The Stepford Wives”: “You’re the king, Frank!

    Sometimes, a woman has to do what a woman has to do.

    I don’t fake orgasms often, but I definitely give an Oscar worthy performance when I do.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    That’s awesome!

  • Notwithstanding PJ’s superficial preening, there is a real lesson to be taken from the Brazilian example. When there are more sexually attractive women to chose from, it becomes more practical to exclude those who exhibit bad behaviour. The same problem exists on the other side of the aisle, with the lament of, “where have all the good men gone?”

    The problem in the States is we’re all engaged in a race to the bottom. Everything’s a war or a competition. Winning against a lover is so contrary to what’s really desirable…

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    The SO is indeed rather quiet when she is “stimulated,” except for maybe a grunt or two.

    The vocalizations are clearly for theatrical effect, and that was clear almost immediately.

    That said, the vocalizations are a lot of fun, because they can be part of the full sexual experience. Defintiely do turn me on. I don’t feel offended by them or inadequate 🙂

    She doesn’t get a huge O every time…I think she’s still satisified, overall, except that she’s like, 4 hours away…

  • I can assure you that “almost all” women do not find their first sexual encounters regretful or unsatisfactory. Quite the opposite, especially if it is in the context of a relationship.

    Trolling? That’s quite an accusation. I was simply to referring to a woman’s hymen being broken, which is typically not reported as a fantastic experience. But hey, if there is a huge population of women out there having awesome orgasmic sex the first time their hymen is broken, I stand corrected. Lol.

    My general point was that sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides, which means people can’t loosen up and enjoy the moment. This was true long before the “hooking up” culture ever existed.

    • @IP

      Not having orgasmic sex /= regret and dissatisfaction.

      I also had many enjoyable sexual encounters before I ever had intercourse.

      sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides, which means people can’t loosen up and enjoy the moment. This was true long before the “hooking up” culture ever existed.

      The Sexual Revolution actually put a lot more pressure on people to have different kinds of sex. Casual, group, adulterous, etc. The divorce rate soared. The feminist script that says sex is empowering pressures women to have sex in a way that feels agentic and controlling in order to feel powerful. This interferes with pleasure and completely disregards the needs of the other person.

      Finally, men and women seek different things from sex. Men generally require less emotional intimacy than women do to enjoy sex. Many of the “bizarre expectations” occur because people have lost sight of gender differences. Women project emotional investment onto men when there is none, as highlighted in the post. Meanwhile, men project lack of emotional investment onto women when in fact they are hoping for a relationship – again, see the post.

  • Ted D

    IP – “My general point was that sex in this culture is a tortured affair laden with all kinds of bizarre expectations from all sides,”

    I agree with this 100%. As to when and what is to blame, I think it is a cumulative effect largely brought mainstream by the sexual revolution and given a huge steroid shot by feminism. I tend to lay most of the blame on feminism for our current state, but I have no doubt there were many contributing factors going much further into history.

    • Whoops, I see Ted beat me to it in replying to IP.

  • L.K.

    What about the Women that do? Why hasn’t there been any mention of those that find love overseas?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtU3m2M1Ivs

  • lovelost

    Next Generation of Uber-Beta Guys will have dating training. MIT certified. no kidding,

    check this out
    http://studentlife.mit.edu/sao/charm/schedule/workshops

  • lovelost

    “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls.”

    LOL LOL

  • lovelost

    Susan you’re in Boston, you may want to reach out to the MIT Charm school and give a talk about dating and current SMP.

  • lovelost

    my humble suggestion. 🙂

  • ExNewYorker

    “Next Generation of Uber-Beta Guys will have dating training. MIT certified. no kidding,”

    *Laugh*, sounds like an IAP thing. Back in our day, we didn’t have this type of thing as an option. Though to be honest, I don’t see this helping much…

  • Ted–feminism certainly bears some of the blame (depending on how exactly one defines “feminism”). Part of it is also the uncertain and hesitant nature of modern masculinity, separate and apart from feminism’s effect on men.

    But America is a land of contradictions. We have extremes on both sides of the spectrum, from the puritanical to the decadent. These contradictory forces often produce confusion and inner conflict for young people. Imagine a young person growing up watching sexed-up rap videos and the glitz of Hollywood, whilst hearing the scolding message of his evangelical pastor. You don’t find this kind of sharp contradiction in other democracies for the most part.

  • J #126

    So what you’re really saying is that I am a deadly winking sniggering snuggling fruit flavoured mincing ice-covered heap of mother love …

    but so circumspect …

    I like it.

  • L.K.

    “Because women do not ejaculate”

    Yes we do.

    “Well, it turned out that “women were making conscious vocalizations in order to influence their partner rather than as a direct expression of sexual arousal. Women reported using these vocalizations to ‘speed up’ their partner’s ejaculation due to boredom, fatigue, discomfort, time limitations.”

    Doesn’t make any sense. Why not just tell him to hurry up and finish?
    That way he’ll have “gotten his” and for the second round you can slow it down and teach him what it takes to make you orgasm? That way both will be satisfied.

    “So if ONLY highly orgasmic women are good for relationships then only a small fraction of women would be in relationships.”

    I’m pretty sure all women are orgasmic. That’s how the human body is designed, or evolved. Now, some or even many women may not be orgasmic WITH a partner, but by ourselves we are. Its easy to bring one’s own self to orgasm because you know exactly what to touch, when and how, and know the precise rhythmic patterns required to specifically get you off. There is a learning curve however for every partner.

    “For example, women in porn scream a lot, saying, “yeah! yeah! yeah! yeah!” in such a way they sound like seagulls. Women have told me that their boyfriends shared disappointment that they weren’t more vocal during sex. Young guys are also often astounded to learn that many women don’t beg for anal. I even know one couple where after months of his pulling out to ejaculate on her face, she complained, and he was astounded to learn that wasn’t the typical female preference!”

    This is disgusting, but even moreso, very sad. I’m willing to bet that before internet porn people were having better and more satisfying sex.

    “I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done).”

    Me too. But every successive one is weaker.
    And the most intense ones were experienced as a teen and early 20s something.

    “Women have a huge role though to and are ultimately responsible for overcoming any psychological barriers they may have to orgasming.”

    I have no psychological barriers to orgasming. I want to with my partner very much so.

    “But men are a huge part of the equation and if they became better lovers they could certainly help their partner a huge amount.”

    He’s not doing his part.

    Part of the problem is that I am vocal but he misinterprets my vocals as being orgasm. They are moan from feeling good, but they are not from orgasm. Because he is convinced I have and do orgasm because of the vocals and also other forms of body language, he does not believe me when I try to explain that I have not orgasmed and he needs to explore this, that or the other thing in order for that to happen.

    He always asks, “did he feel good.” I of course tell him it felt good, great even, because it did. But it still wasn’t orgasm. I have now realized I have to start lying and saying “no it didn’t feel good” so as to maybe to get him to work toward giving me an orgasm.

    I’m wondering if its common for men to confuse vocals and other body language of enjoyment with orgasm?

  • L.K.

    “Susan – its easy to fix that need for faking: just tell your mate you aren’t interested in an orgasm and just want him to enjoy himself. ”

    But I am interested in an orgasm!

    The most frustrating thing is that I know that I am highly orgasmic when I masturbate, I always figured sex with a partner would be even more orgasmic. I can certainly understand women who become deeply bonded to their partners after orgasm. I’v always felt like I was bathing in bliss and love after masturbatory orgasms, almost as if another person I deeply loved was with me. I imagine that the man who can produce those feelings with his body in the body of a woman can make her go CRAZY for him.

    • Sadly, 5-10% of women never have an orgasm under any circumstances. See? Even women don’t know the facts.

      Why Can’t Some Women Orgasm? Neuroscience Might Finally Have an Answer

      It is estimated that one in four women in the US has had difficulty achieving orgasm in the past year, while between 5 and 10 per cent of women are anorgasmic – unable to achieve orgasm at all. But without precise data to explain what happens during this experience, there are few treatment options available for women who might want help.

      Five to 10 percent of women cannot orgasm, and nobody really knows why. In fact, scientists hardly know anything at all about the mechanisms behind how people climax. But researchers may have discovered a link between brain function and sexual gratification that might explain the phenomenon. By using an fMRI to track the brain activity of women pleasuring themselves, scientists at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands have drawn a connection between orgasms and the part of the brain known as the left orbitofrontal cortex (OFC), which suggests that women who tend to have trouble letting go when it comes to other areas of their lives might also have trouble in the bedroom

      Some other interesting info:

      http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/sex-study-female-orgasm-eludes-majority-women/story?id=8485289&page=2

      Elisabeth Lloyd, a professor of history, philosophical science and biology at the Indiana University.

      Lloyd’s study of 80 years of previous sex research in her 2005 book, “The Case of the Female Orgasm,” debunked theories that there is an evolutionary reason for the female orgasm.

      She determined the female orgasm is merely a byproduct of the male orgasm, as both sexes share the same genital nerve tissue in the fetal stage.

      “It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.

      Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”

      Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary

      “It’s clear the male orgasm is strongly selected and it makes sense,” said Wallen. “If they don’t reach orgasm, they don’t leave offspring.”

      To look at the question in reverse, women have a strong evolutionary selection for nipples — without them their babies would die, according to Wallen. However, nipples serve no biological purpose in men.

      In analysis of the Bonaparte data, the researchers first had to reframe the question. Instead of asking, “Do you have orgasm during intercourse?” they created a “more explicit survey” asking if manual or oral stimulation had been involved.

      After analyzing data from 100 female volunteers, ranging from 18 to 60, they found about 11 percent said they always have orgasm during intercourse and the same number said they never climaxed.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “As I said before, desperation will make people accept what they can get. The beggar may not be able to get $100 from a person on the street, but they’ll make due with a few dollars. ”

    You analogy is just stupid.

    The people in power don’t give out their resources in the SMP the same way they do change.

    Hot men don’t give tidbits of commitment to fat chicks and hot women don’t give a tidbit of sex to the ugly man. (Hot men can give a tidbit of sex obvs.)

    In which case, they are not even playing the same game. The amount of power the hot person has is proportional to how delusional the ugly person is.

  • Bells

    A lot of women can do fine by themselves but have trouble with someone else. I could have like 5 in an hour by myself (which I’ve done), but still can’t get anywhere with a guy during the act itself.

    5 in an hour? Wow, I really have to practice some more!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    You analogy is just stupid.

    I think a lot of the things that you’ve said on here have been stupid. I don’t call you out on it because I don’t want to spend my time starting online pissing contests. I think it is a very fitting analogy. Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant and inconsequential. I’m feeling particularly bitchy today, so this should be good. I like you enough as a commentor to not want to have you on my bad side. I assume the feeling is mutual. If that is the case, I’d suggest that you start your rebuttals without calling my arguments stupid. Thanks.

    The people in power don’t give out their resources in the SMP the same way they do change.

    Hot men don’t give tidbits of commitment to fat chicks and hot women don’t give a tidbit of sex to the ugly man. (Hot men can give a tidbit of sex obvs.)

    In which case, they are not even playing the same game. The amount of power the hot person has is proportional to how delusional the ugly person is.

    Agreeing to spend the night with someone is a small bit of commitment. FWB relationships are also small bits of commitment. If not, why would women enter into them at all? Those relationships have just enough semblances of a “commitment” to keep the women coming back for more. If they never asked for more, I’m sure that FWB relationships would be more common than they are.

    Women give small physical/sexual tidbits to their male friends that are stuck in the “friendzone”. I’ve heard more than my fair share of men stuck in the friendzone, pining away for a woman. What do the women do to get these guys’ hopes up? They flirt with them in a sexual fashion, then turn around and say that they only see them as friends. They cuddle with these guys in bed after a bad breakup with their “asshole” boyfriends, and then wonder why the guy friends want to bang them. It’s just enough sexual tension and physical touch to keep the men in the friendzone on the hook.

    If you don’t think that some people, both men and women, who hold power in the SMP give crumbs to the beggars, I don’t know what to tell you. I see such dynamics around me all the time.

  • So no one want to be the first? Ok I will.
    HAPPY WOMEN’S DAY! 🙂

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Some small updates from this week:
    -My good friend has been online dating for a while. He’s been persistent, but he’s pretty beta about things and gets friend-zoned PDQ.

    He has now gotten friend-zoned UBER hardcore by a fiery redhead, who is now asking him whether or not she should have sex with her brand new boyfriend (picked over him, of course).

    He keeps coming back for more.

    Ugh. Dumb. Playing fast and loose with his emotions. At 25 he should know better.

    We went out last night…he is still uncomfortable around women. His voice rises several octaves, he gets loud, and he starts acting little TOO frat-boyish…he basically rehashed MY entire romantic history in front of an entire bar at 110 decibels last night. Oy.

    -At lunch, a new girl at work decided to sit with us (group of 20-something males). Recent college grad and a rather artsy girl. Easy to talk to, relatively smart. I am rather impressed by her forward-ness and ease of integration into our group. Probably single as she hasn’t mentioned a boyfriend yet. So far, wish we had a million more like her.

    -My co-worker has introduced me to an interesting archtype…a guy with some natural game who does not approach at all, ever, because he is afraid of being creepy. He is gruff, tons of facial hair, and seems to attract the crazy based on the stories of his previous GF. With this particular girl, he was OBVIOUSLY interested, but not phased by her presence and gave her a lot of mild teasing, while not making her the focus of any conversation.
    Good, good initial presentation, but….

    -We were also discussing approaching this week. My friends and coworkers have, combined, approached…zero girls that I know of, in the last 2 years. They are TERRIFIED of awkwardness and creepiness. Even this dude, who girls seem to actually like, is terrified as coming across as creepy.

    They came up with one situation where I approached a girl (part of my “one approach every day” challenge) and said I made her feel uncomfortable. This is ridiculous, because she was laughing and liked the flower I plucked for her. Also, they weren’t even THERE, but they sure do like the idea that all girls are intimidated by all guys (except for the sexy ones).

    -We were discussing this again later with another single girl in my car, and even after we explained this to her, and how she NEEDED to be more proactive and more flirty, she was absolutely shocked. She was under the impression that she should only play hard to get, and that one of her male friends told her this is what she had to do because other guys called her slutty behind her back.
    I told her she should stop hanging out with guys that go to clubs and do nothing but drink, and perhaps she would run less often into guys that think this way.
    This has not yet processed, I believe…

    -This giant mess of a social group is going out again, tonight. One of the girls in our group is very excited to see our “Game.” It seems that many, many girls are dangerously intrigued by the subject, are superficially aware, and want to see it in practice.

    We’ll see how tonight goes!

  • And men’s day is in November 19 I plan to congratulate the XY that day as well. Surely will get in trouble in facebook but it will be interesting to say something.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Further conclusions on (still immature) social group

    -Men reallllllyyyyy need to stop getting excited by the sexuality portion. I remember two girls coming with us, one very nice and moderately attractive, one that was basically a stripper. They all chased stripper girl.
    First girl is now happy in a relationship with a nice Greater Beta in our group. She is attractive, so there is no SMV differential.
    Stripper girl has had bisexual experiences, got a boob job, is dating an abusive boyfriend, and is extremely depressed and longing for attention.

    -Women reaaalllllyyyyy need to learn how to socialize. For all this talk about your social skills, the women I run into are absolutely incapable of carrying on normal conversation. And no, my guy friends do not just talk about sports. The girls all inevitably check out and play on smart phones, unless given a huge dopamine boost, which comes from…

    -Being a “dick.” This whole cocky-funny, teasing thing is something I can do, but it STILL strikes me as being a dick. Rather taxing, but Game is going to be the best way to navigate your life.

    -Hard to get is extremely dumb. I cannot emphasize this enough.

    -Sexual zoning and sexual harassment fear has been absolutely catastrophic for many guys and needs to be done away with.

    Of course, all stuff we already know…

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Men reallllllyyyyy need to stop getting excited by the sexuality portion. I remember two girls coming with us, one very nice and moderately attractive, one that was basically a stripper. They all chased stripper girl.

    I’m not surprised.

  • mr. wavevector

    The truth is, the ability to orgasm and frequency of orgasm varies highly among women. 80% do not come from intercourse alone. The lower oral sex numbers don’t look so promising for those women.

    But the response to oral sex varies highly among women too. A surprising number of women don’t like receiving it, and refuse it when offered. Some find it unexciting, some are too sensitive, some are anxious about their looks/smell/taste, and some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    What makes women orgasm also varies highly. Some need oral, some prefer a finger-bang, some want a vibrator, some want to be on top. Some women never orgasm but still want sex all the time. And some orgasm so easily they come after 3 minutes of good old missionary PIV. Many need to be comfortable with the relationship before they can enjoy it.

    A lot of women also don’t realize how varied other women are, so they think what works for them is “what women want” – but it’s not.

    • @mr. wavevector

      A lot of women also don’t realize how varied other women are, so they think what works for them is “what women want” – but it’s not.

      You’re so right. Of course it’s true that not all women like oral sex. I will say that it generally gets a big thumbs up in my focus groups, though. And there’s always grumbling about men who won’t go down – I’d estimate at least a quarter to a third of men say no way, at least when young. The self-consciousness is probably the thing I hear most about from women who don’t want it.

      But there have been a wide range of preferences mentioned by women here over time – definitely NOT one size fits all.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Sassy

    I’m not surprised.

    Neither am I.
    However, they are all absolutely excited over the new girl at our work as well, and she does not give me the “trouble” sense.
    She seems accessible and interesting and the guys don’t get a lot of female attention, so they like her. They treat receptive females like Gold.
    And since they aren’t in college anymore, they REALLY don’t run into a lot of females.
    Like my one friend who got into online dating when he saw his buddy succeed, or my other friend that keeps bashing his head, if men think they can win, they will compete.
    They do not compete for modern women at all because they are unreceptive, rude, and dismissive, and they fear social shame for being “creepy.”
    Yes, they will respond more aggressively to overt sexual displays, but most men do not encounter women who are routinely sexually displaying to them (at least after college-years). If you routinely run into these men, pick a different target market.
    I do believe that restricted girls who display some interest and can carry on a conversation and make effort to meet men will do well in this market.
    For instance, my friend who ROUTINELY gets friend-zoned by online daters? His sister online dated extensively and quite easily got more boyfriends in a year than I can even remember. She is physically disabled, and not super attractive, and neither are her boyfriends, but she is EXCEEDINGLY pleasant and made finding a man her priority.
    Some of the men aren’t exactly low status either…she did meet Mitt Romney, after all…
    Obviously, you prefer only the sexiest of men, so you can’t do this, but, hey, we can’t have everything 😛

  • L.K.

    ” I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend”

    Excuse me? How is letting your 16 year old daughter’s boyfriend sex her right under your own nose in your own house any where near “sexually conservative”? Not only is it extremely permissive, its completely weird and creepy.

    “but they don’t really do the casual sex thing.”

    What would you call the above?

    “Even if they don’t marry, they live in monogamous relationships that last longer than many American marriages.”

    And how do they get there? Their very first partner which they had sex with at 16 Ior sooner) with mommy and daddy’s gleeful permission in the next bedroom over turns into a monogamous relationship that lasts longer than many American marriages?

  • L.K.

    Susan, they are talking about WITH A PARTNER, not via masturbation;

    “It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.

    Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    For instance, my friend who ROUTINELY gets friend-zoned by online daters? His sister online dated extensively and quite easily got more boyfriends in a year than I can even remember. She is physically disabled, and not super attractive, and neither are her boyfriends, but she is EXCEEDINGLY pleasant and made finding a man her priority.
    Some of the men aren’t exactly low status either…she did meet Mitt Romney, after all…
    Obviously, you prefer only the sexiest of men, so you can’t do this, but, hey, we can’t have everything 😛

    Online dating is definitely a crapshoot. I used to have online dating profiles, but I deleted both of them. I didn’t find what I was looking for, and I wanted to take a break.

    I’m not really interested in dating anyone at the moment. I started taking my pottery class this past week, and it was really fun. I made my first vase, and working on a potter’s wheel was very interesting. At this point, I’d rather focus my attention on keybowls instead of men.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t blame you, Sassy, Dating is exhausting.

    On the other hand, I fucking hate pottery. Took that class freshman year of high school and every day came out of there with a ton of crap on my pants.

    Plus…no talent 😉 Let’s see if I can post a picture of what I made…

  • L.K.

    ” I’ve lived in Europe for 14 years and Europeans tend to be more conservative sexually than Americans and Australians are. Sure, they might let the 17-year old boyfriend sleep over and have sex with his 16-year old girlfriend”

    Susan, as a mother with the European model in mind, which would you prefer – your 16 year old daughter bringing her boyfriend home to stay the weekend and having sex with him in the bedroom just across from yours, OR her having a few casual but safe-sex flings in her 20s?

  • Jesse

    5 in an hour? Wow, I really have to practice some more!

    I need a study buddy. You down? Let’s meet at the library at 8.

  • Esau

    ADBG They are TERRIFIED of awkwardness and creepiness. Even this dude, who girls seem to actually like, is terrified as coming across as creepy.

    Hmm, wonder how that might have come about; something in their past experiences, perhaps?

    Never too soon to revisit the classics: http://xkcd.com/642/

  • Esau

    lovelost: Susan you’re in Boston, you may want to reach out to the MIT Charm school and give a talk about dating and current SMP.

    Now that, I would pay money to see, just for the entertainment.

  • lovelost

    Now that, I would pay money to see, just for the entertainment.

    a streaming feed would be helpful for those who wants to joins from home.

    oops, working from home is banned these days. no pun intended 🙂

  • Test Ease

    The problem with that Brazil documentary is all the men think they deserve special treatment simply because they possess testicles.

  • OffTheCuff

    Mr. wave, excellent summary.

    There’s a healthy level of noise that I think is necessary. Yeah, porn-level theatrics where you’re actually saying goofy phrases like “fuck me harder!” are obviously wrong, but there should be grunting and groaning and sound.

    But, silence is worse. I’d rather someone say too much than too little.

    Sadly, due to my conservative upbringing, I always kept silent as possible, not because I didn’t like it, but making noise felt wrong and abusive and too, dare I say, macho. Once I got over that, it allowed us to read each other much better, and my wife became more comfortable making noise herself. Which allowed me to read her better, and form a feedback loop.

    Silence and holding back, is bad. Saying stupid phrases is also bad, because if you can form words more any more complicated than a syllable or two, you are doing it wrong.

    Deep breaths. Helps to be a vocalist or wind player. Guitarists suck!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Summary from tonight:
    If this social group were an army, it’d be the Italian army

  • Ted D

    “Deep breaths. Helps to be a vocalist or wind player. Guitarists suck”

    I’m a singer and guitar player. I’m good with my mouth and my fingers. 🙂

    And that’s why I get no complaints from the wimmenz!

  • Iggles

    @ mr. wavevector:

    But the response to oral sex varies highly among women too. A surprising number of women don’t like receiving it, and refuse it when offered. Some find it unexciting, some are too sensitive, some are anxious about their looks/smell/taste, and some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    Well, that’s a simple fix. Either try a position where you take higher ground or 69! 😆

    @ ADBG,
    Great post at #153. Sounds like both sexes in your social group have some growing up to do. I’m also a millennial, so sadly I do see a number of people making the same mistakes! Especially this:

    And no, my guy friends do not just talk about sports. The girls all inevitably check out and play on smart phones

    It drives me nuts how attached people are to their smart phones when hanging out as group somewhere! They’ve got to take pictures and “check in” on Facebook. It’s annoying! So many men and women our age do this, but I agree with you it’s a majority female thing. I make a conscious effort NOT to check my phone because I want to be in the moment and enjoy spending time with my friends! We don’t get together as much as we used to, so it’s even more important for me to do so.

    @ SW:

    In analysis of the Bonaparte data, the researchers first had to reframe the question. Instead of asking, “Do you have orgasm during intercourse?” they created a “more explicit survey” asking if manual or oral stimulation had been involved.

    I’d like to know the findings of that study. I’m thinking in a lot of those cases additional stimulation was used.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Iggles,

    Well, that’s a simple fix. Either try a position where you take higher ground or 69!

    Indeed! But I think her comment was more about the psychology than the physics of the act.

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    Summary from tonight:
    If this social group were an army, it’d be the Italian army

    At least it isn’t the French army…

  • MaMu1977
  • A Definite Beta Guy

    INTJ,

    The French army is superior to the Italian army and always has been. The Italian military is quite possibly the worst in Europe since…I don’t know, 1400 at the very least!

    A little update on “creepiness”:
    The men-folk are very much justified in their fear of creepiness. The female social circles, at least the ones I run in, like to gush to other people in their social group about how they were hit on and how creepy the guys are.

    This is an extremely popular topic whenever going to one of the “active” sexual zones.

    My impression is that under-30s are indeed a pathetic conversational lot. I am constantly reminded of “ice-breaker” activities we had to do to get college freshman to talk to each other. A fun game to give a big dopamine boost, so we could get to actual social bonding.

    Factor in a ton of posturing to show how “cool” you are, and you get mid and late 20 somethings.

    The best conversational partner in the group is the natural-alpha-afraid-to-be-creepy guy, who thinks EVERYTHING is cool. Other than that, ugh…

    Gen Y socialization is burning me out VERY quickly. Or perhaps quality time with my GF has spoiled me, but things are never this bad talking to actual adults (grocery stores, restaraunts, etc.) They seem at least moderately interested in actual people and enjoy conversing with them for short bursts, and are not 100% concerned about asserting more “awesomeness.”

    Or maybe they don’t do it to me because I am 26.

    I don’t know.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Re: Creep, is not a label applied solely to men.
    Yesterday I relayed the story of a girl who is new to our company and sat down with our social group during lunch.

    Another girl in our social group met her, by which I mean stood near her for 30 seconds and didn’t even introduce herself, and pronounced the new girl as “weird” last night.

    This is also the girl who was casually dismissed by the other guys when stripper-girl was running through the bar.

    I swear, my generation simply does not know how to treat other people with civility.

  • SayWhaat

    ADBG, where do you live again?

  • If women hated hooking up so much, they wouldn’t be doing in EN MASSE now, would they? They’re doing it en masse because they LIKE it! It’s as simple as that…

  • Jason

    Anacaona.

    HAPPY WOMEN’S DAY!

    You know a happy woman? I guess we should dedicate a day to her.

    Couldn’t resist.

  • HanSolo

    @MarkyMark

    Some like it, yes. But a lot do it out of peer pressure (from their female friends and local alpha mares and the guys they may be trying to get a relationship with) and the message from the feminist and pop-culture alpha mares.

    The underlying force of greater economic power, birth control and relative safety totally empower the more promiscuous women to pursue that path. That in and of itself lowers the overall price of casual sex and puts pressure on the more middle and restricted side of the spectrum.

    On top of that the cultural message that women should revel in their sexual power (pop culture) and that they should fuck like men (feminists) and that they should delay marriage (resulting in a few more ONSs, flings, STRs and even LTRs) all contribute to varying degrees.

    The feminization, intimidation (see ADBG’s field report above) and wimpification of a lot of men also contributes. Porn likely moves the male spectrum a bit to the promiscuous side (though it saps some men of any drive to approach). Seeing those players and alphas succeed with indifference or douchiness (NAplayers/alphasALT) has some impact as well in showing what kind of behavior is rewarded.

    Most men follow what they perceive to be demanded from women and I think that women are a bit more concerned with being in tune with what their circle of friends “demands” and what that part of society they look up to says is the right kind of behavior so I think that shifting the needle with women (aka, changing the herd’s expectations) is where you’ll get the highest return on investment. Getting enough women (and men to a lesser degree) to say that relationships are good and that they won’t have sex outside of them (and live up to that) can be a first step so that it creates another respected narrative (not just some old prude that isn’t “cool”) that girls can buy into and use to shore up their own restricted desires.

    Denouncing extreme feminism and raunch culture can also start to work. Putting off the bitchy posturing and nuclear rejections (or even TNT-level rejections) that intimidate a lot of men and actually looking for relationships will start sending the market signal to men that it is again safe and “profitable” to approach women for non-hookup relationships and less “profitable” for casual.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “A little update on “creepiness”:
    The men-folk are very much justified in their fear of creepiness. The female social circles, at least the ones I run in, like to gush to other people in their social group about how they were hit on and how creepy the guys are. ”

    Now THAT is weird. Gushing about creeps hitting on them? I put it out of my mind and pretend it never happened. I’d never tell anyone else about it because its tantamount to wearing a sign that says “I can only attract creeps.”

    “If women hated hooking up so much, they wouldn’t be doing in EN MASSE now, would they? They’re doing it en masse because they LIKE it! It’s as simple as that…”

    I agree. There’s a pay off in there somewhere for them even if it doesn’t include orgasms.

  • Bells

    Another girl in our social group met her, by which I mean stood near her for 30 seconds and didn’t even introduce herself, and pronounced the new girl as “weird” last night.

    This is also the girl who was casually dismissed by the other guys when stripper-girl was running through the bar.

    I swear, my generation simply does not know how to treat other people with civility.

    Maybe one girl(or both of them) already checked out each other and decided that they didn’t like them. You never know, women can be a bit catty at times.

  • Mulholland Drive

    By the way, there’s a move by men to reclaim the creep word, just as feminists have reclaimed “slut”.

    Own it!

  • HanSolo

    @M.D.

    New Justin Timberlake song out: “I’m bringing creepy back…get your creepy on….” 🙂

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bells

    If my grandmother can tolerate her ex-husband, then this child of prosperity and privilege can introduce herself to one of our work friends and be civil towards her.

    Women who choose to be this “catty” are actually “bitchy.” Actually, I have another C-word in mind, but I am not sure Susan would like it 😉

    I have a tolerance for character defects in other people, I have little patience for people who revel in them, however.

  • Jesse

    some are uncomfortable with being in the dominant / receiving role (one girl told me “I’d rather look up at you than down at you.”)

    My feelings on female genitalia are somewhat parallel. I’m completely unaroused at the thought of kneeling before a woman and licking her, but if I can bend her over, hold her down and hold her legs together (or force them open) then all of a sudden her genitalia look much more enticing. When I used to watch porn I found that vaginas just didn’t look visually appealing when the woman was in control, but they looked much better when she wasn’t.

    Of course if she’s my woman I want to lick her, smell her and taste her, and I want to make her whimper and moan, but not in a subservient way. If it feels like I’m servicing her then I don’t like it.

    I once tried to read that Ian Kerner book about cunnilingus but he seemed to completely miss the point of dominance and submission so it didn’t seem very useful to me. For some folks it’s impossible to separate physical pleasure from control during sex.

  • Jesse

    I should add that his book certainly has useful information in terms of female anatomy but perhaps little in the way of body positions and setup.

  • Esau

    MaMu1977 at 176:

    RE: XKCD and “Creepy”

    http://kateharding.net/2009/10/05/would-it-kill-you-to-be-civil/

    Yeech! What a horrid, hateful, vomitous piece of writing. Are you a regular reader of Kate Harding, for better or for worse? If this piece is at all typical, then she seems like everything that is wrong with feminism, a shrieking, vicious, contemptible man-hating harridan — but I’ll stick to polite language in deference to Susan.

    HanSolo at 182: “Denouncing extreme feminism … can also start to work.”

    Can we start with Kate Harding? Not that the feminist brigade can be influenced one iota by you or me. But I am disappointed that non-crazy female authority figures — like Susan — will readily call out feminists for their damaging advice to women, but not so much for their blatant and equally damaging misandry.

    • @Esau

      But I am disappointed that non-crazy female authority figures — like Susan — will readily call out feminists for their damaging advice to women, but not so much for their blatant and equally damaging misandry.

      I did write a post specifically criticizing the misandry of Nice Guy TM. It’s here:

      Marcotte’s Boxers Are In a Twist Over Nice Guys®

      The other form of misandry I’ve written about several times is that in our educational system.

      Unfortunately, I find that if I do too much of it I get a sort of backlash in the “no good deed goes unpunished” genre. I wrote a post in praise of fathers last Father’s Day and it turned into a really ugly and angry thread, thanks to some rather extreme MRAs who showed up.

      But I’m open to writing about anything you think especially worthwhile.

      I agree that Kate Harding’s piece is disgusting.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Don’t be too angry at Kate…she is just seeing the world through her lens and has somewhat of a point…just too hostile to men and doesn’t want to understand their view point, only focused on her own pain.

    I like women a lot. Sometimes us men-folk don’t always treat them nice. My mom gets underpaid at work, knows because she handles the payroll. Sister gets cat-called on occasion. GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.

    Apparently, you can learn a lot from women by listening to them.

    It’s especially good when there are no feminists involved in the conversation! Bwahahahahahahahaha.

  • Mulholland Drive

    This “The Nice Guy TM blames on feminism what is really the fault of sexism, thus imagining himself the True Victim of both.” is true.

  • Mulholland Drive

    ” My mom gets underpaid at work, knows because she handles the payroll.”

    She can ask for a raise.

    “GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.”

    Blowing up at her for not reciprocating his feelings? Those things can’t be forced or faked, and he wouldn’t want them to be anyway. Then he’d blow up at her for faking.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That is not pertinent to the fact that women do face their own issues in this world that men do not face, and men would do well to listen to their issues.

    The problem comes in when you have people that flip out over a comic strip or want to have a one-way conversation, IE, a lecture. This is what a lot of feminists are really about: a one-way “correction” of society’s injustices.

    Anyone who wants to bash Nice Guys is straight-up pathetic and loses all credibility, in my eyes.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG and Esau

    Reading the first part of that and I don’t like how she’s saying nerdy guys are perpetuating rape culture. Maybe I’ll find something redeeming later on.

    Esau, I think Susan does speak up against many cases of misandry, like her recent post on how boys are discriminated against in the education system.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “The point is, ADBG, some claiming “nice guy” status are anything but.”

    No one gives a shit about “some.” These anti-nice guy tirades make ALL nice guys look like woman-raping commu-Nazis.

  • Mulholland Drive

    Disagree. There’s “nice guy” and then “Nice Guy TM”. Harding references the trademarked demographic.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    I don’t see anything redeeming about that article. There are guys who go too far and don’t respect women by why not focus on them instead of some cartoon of a guy that just mentions the laptop or whatever to start a conversation. If you set the bar at women being the only ones who can let the man know when he can speak then you veer into the territory of the present day where too many good guys are afraid of being nuked and so they STFU. I think a healthier level would be where people can talk to each other and be civil but if the woman is not interested then she just doesn’t say all that much. She doesn’t need to be preemptively rude and the guy shouldn’t keep insisting if she’s not participating.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “I don’t see anything redeeming about that article. ”

    Its right here, “The Nice Guy TM blames on feminism what is really the fault of sexism, thus imagining himself the True Victim of both.”

    Men and Low Self Esteem
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfKGz1d29zU

  • Josie88

    @ Sassy

    I agree with your theory of beggars can’t be choosers but may I provide a pothole.

    So, I have this Uncle who is about 70 years old. His wife, My (bio) Aunt died about ten years ago, leaving him a widow. For whatever reasons, he never became accomplished, wealthy, nor educated.

    Long Story short, he hits on my 20-something friends, and wants to find true love with them.

    Unforunately, he has neither youth (72), wealth (lives on social security), intelligent (never got a BA), nor the personality (wants a submissive, traditional wife).

    I advise him to date women about 50+, but he finds them unattractive and wants a young girl to be his wife. Thus, he hits on my friends.

    At the same time, my attractive 55 year old friend that was rejected by my Uncle for being too old cannot afford to be a chooser. If she wants to be in a relationship, she must overlook my Uncle age (which she did!!!).

    In this situation, would you said that beggars can be choosers?

    Obvsiouly, a beggar can go asked for change in a more affluent, wealthy neighborhood. This was what happen when I was fundraising for a non-profit organization.

  • HanSolo

    Your uncle is delusional. He won’t find any young woman. He’s basically bidding for something he can’t afford so he can continue to put in a cheap bid (his value) for a waaaaaaaaaaay-out-of-his-league woman but no one will ever “sell” for that cheap.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Per usual, don’t have any strong disagreement with you Han. I just mean that guys do sometimes forget how damnably scared women can be, too, especially of generic “Creepiness.” Schrodinger’s Rapist may not be exactly real, but the women-folk have a lot to worry about.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “So, I have this Uncle who is about 70 years old. His wife, My (bio) Aunt died about ten years ago, leaving him a widow. For whatever reasons, he never became accomplished, wealthy, nor educated.

    Long Story short, he hits on my 20-something friends, and wants to find true love with them.”

    Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! This was the funniest thing I read all year!

    “At the same time, my attractive 55 year old friend that was rejected by my Uncle for being too old cannot afford to be a chooser. ”

    She sure as sugar can afford to be a chooser if she is only 55 and attractive!!! Her range is men 40-65. Your uncle is too old and feeble for her. I say this because a neighbor who is 56 with attractive looks but overweight (not morbidly obese but definitely plump) gets hit on regularly by men younger than her even though she is not a cougar. By virtue of the numbers of younger men who ask her out, she’s been dating a plethora of 40 somethings.

    “If she wants to be in a relationship, she must overlook my Uncle age (which she did!!!). ”

    She needs to forget about your old uncle and look for men in her own age range.

  • Bells

    @Josie88,
    Your uncle is just the typical pervy old man. There’s always a couple of those around. No big deal, most young girls should know how to successfully sidestep those. He’s got nothing to lose so that’s probably why he’s overly persistent.

  • Esau

    ADBG, interesting stable of reactions.

    Don’t be too angry at Kate…she is just seeing the world through her lens and has somewhat of a point…just too hostile to men and doesn’t want to understand their view point, only focused on her own pain.

    It sounds almost as though you know her personally. Tell me, do you think she would agree with your assessment of her? if not, then are you really defending her in practice? or insulting her even more profoundly?

    I like women a lot. Sometimes us men-folk don’t always treat them nice.

    Agreed, certainly. Loosely speaking I’d say that, even in a rich and peaceful country, maybe a third of the members of my sex are basically free-range assholes, and another third can swing that way at a moment’s provocation. YMMV, depending; but, unlike feminists, we are certainly not upholding the brief that “my sex are basically good by nature.”

    So, yes, men are available in a wide range of trimlines. Thing of it is, I’d have a lot more sympathy that “a lot of men treat women poorly” is an actual problem in the world, if it weren’t for the plain fact that so many women openly choose the men who treat them poorly over those who’d treat them well — in a sense, this is the very reason that HUS exists! So your remark, while correct, side-steps an essential point.

    GF understand friend zoning guys not healthy for guys, but really did feel bad whenever a guy blew up at her, and she was just trying to be nice.

    I can’t address the specific person you have in mind here, obviously. But to speak in general, this is a ridiculous and self-contradictory idea. The act of LJBFing is generally an act of contempt, and so is utterly incompatible with “trying to be nice” in any realistic, meaningful way. It’s possible that a woman committing the act feels that way subjectively, that she’s “trying to be nice”; but objectively the vastly more likely explanation is that she’s primarily trying to protect her own ego and self-image as not being a bad person and so not deserving of criticism.

    As I said, I don’t know this specific person’s history at all and so don’t make any claims about her. But as a general rule, I feel confident in asserting that the woman who says “I was just trying to be nice” while LJBFing has no understanding of what the word “nice” actually means.

    That is not pertinent to the fact that women do face their own issues in this world that men do not face, and men would do well to listen to their issues.

    Hmm. I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “listen” here: is it just in the sense of “observe”, or more along the lines of “believe” or “take seriously”? If the latter, then are you effectively endorsing the first few steps on the Way of the White Knight? (not that I’m condemning that, per se, just pointing it out)

    Anyone who wants to bash Nice Guys is straight-up pathetic and loses all credibility, in my eyes.

    So you think Kate Harding has no credibility, and yet we should still find value in her writing? Meanwhile, the eloquent Girl Writes What is in agreement with you here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

    I apologize for taking bandwidth on a somewhat off-original-topic tangent, but a lot of GWW is worth your time to watch; I imagine she and Susan would have a lot to talk about together.

    So, interesting.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    Yeah, I agree that there are some men who are offensive, rude, etc. But I just don’t see most nerds or nice guys falling into that category. It’s more the mentally ill on the subways or some portion of dark-players, thugs, etc. The nice guy is the least of a woman’s problems so why the constant hateful focus on them by the extreme-feminists? I mean, it’s such shit, men are supposed to keep their darker drives in check and so the nice guy is doing that and so then he gets shat on for doing that. Yeah, there may be some that act nicer than they truly are but what is the alternative? To act less civil and let out their darker nature? That’s really going to make the world better for women. What a load of shit. I’m not directing that at you, just at the fallacy of the whole argument against nice guys.

  • Esau

    Hansolo at 196: Esau, I think Susan does speak up against many cases of misandry, like her recent post on how boys are discriminated against in the education system.

    Of course, you’re right. I apologize, to the extent I implied that she never does so. But I do think there’s still some headroom available.

  • HanSolo

    @Bells

    I wouldn’t call him pervy–that gets into demonizing the fact that he’s attracted to those 20-something women. Nothing wrong with that. And if he’s acting inappropriately to them like touching them or whatever then I’d agree he’s pervy.

    I would simply say he’s unrealistic and being very hypergamous.

    A fool yes, a perv, no.

    @Josie

    Why is he around your friends so often anyway?

  • Mulholland Drive

    “So, yes, men are available in a wide range of trimlines. Thing of it is, I’d have a lot more sympathy that “a lot of men treat women poorly” is an actual problem in the world, if it weren’t for the plain fact that so many women openly choose the men who treat them poorly over those who’d treat them well ”

    Childhood programming. Repeating patterns.

    “But as a general rule, I feel confident in asserting that the woman who says “I was just trying to be nice” while LJBFing has no understanding of what the word “nice” actually means.”

    What does the word “nice” actually mean?

    What is a “nice” way of telling a man you are not romantically interested in him but you do value him as a friend?

  • HanSolo

    @Esau

    No problem. I agree that women in general could help out more by denouncing misandry and not playing the female victim card (especially the ones that say that they are victims of the male privilege that a lot of males would be quite surprised to know they hold–meaning they don’t hold it).

    However, I think that Susan is quite anti-misandry. Do you have any examples of issues where you don’t think she is sufficiently so? Off the top of my head I can remember her calling out the educational discrimination against boys, nuclear rejections by women, shaming of male sexuality.

  • HanSolo

    If she sincerely wants to be friends then she can say that she isn’t romantically attracted but would like to be friends. That simple. There’s a diff. btw LJBF and sincerely wanting friendship. I have quite a few female friends that are just that and we value our friendship. Some guys aren’t so into having friendships with females so if he gets shot down then he should just avoid the woman after that.

  • Esau

    Hansolo: However, I think that Susan is quite anti-misandry.

    Hmm, I’m not prepared to argue this either way at the moment; depends on your calibration of “quite”. But what I said above was not about misandry generally, but about misandry by feminists specifically. One could argue as to whether calling out feminists for misandry is a good use of her time and space; but I think there’s a good case for her doing more of it, that doing so would benefit the young women of her target audience.

    Meanwhile, referring to your question at 208, The nice guy is the least of a woman’s problems so why the constant hateful focus on them by the extreme-feminists?, the video I linked to at 207 answers it very directly, if you’re really interested and not just being rhetorical. I think she’s really an excellent speaker and worth watching, whether you concur or not.

  • Bells

    A visual definition of the word creep:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0

  • HanSolo

    I’ve seen some portions of her videos and liked what I saw. I think she should make some shorter videos of the 2-5 min length for punchier delivery of the main ideas and for people like me that get turned off by the 30 min typical length. I am interested and opened it so will watch when I come back from watching a movie.

    I do agree that calling out misandry by women that aren’t misandrists would be helpful to help drain the swamp in the minds of both men and women that men are intrinsically pervs, evil and the source of most of the ills in the world.

  • Mulholland Drive

    “If she sincerely wants to be friends then she can say that she isn’t romantically attracted but would like to be friends. That simple. There’s a diff. btw LJBF and sincerely wanting friendship. I have quite a few female friends that are just that and we value our friendship. Some guys aren’t so into having friendships with females so if he gets shot down then he should just avoid the woman after that.”

    Thanks for your i