The Failed Female Strategy of Life Splitting

woman_on_tightropeLeslie Bell, writing in The Atlantic to promote her new book on young women and sexual freedom, observes that in her discussions with 20-something women, they often express shame about desiring a committed relationship. 

Some young women deeply desire meaningful relationships with men, even as they feel guilty about those desires. Many express the same sentiment again and again: “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value relationships with men so highly?” To do so feels like a betrayal of themselves, of their education, and of their achievements.

It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.” Friends, whose parents have raised them with the same set of expectations, provide much needed backup for this strategy, offering bromides over Mimosas during brunch.  It’s the Sex and the City nightmare come to fruition. 

I was raised with this set of expectations myself. My mother felt stifled at home, and my father was convinced I could follow in his footsteps and even surpass his own achievements. From Irish parlor maid to Wharton MBA in two generations; not bad. Yet he would never call himself a feminist; he was simply a proud father who wanted the best for his daughter. 

Like women today, I too felt anxiety about losing focus and taking my eye off the ball, but when at 25 I met my husband, I began making compromises right away. I’d find a job in NY to be with him, then move with him to Boston, then agree to stay at home with a toddler who was miserable in day care. I recall feeling sheepish about these choices well into my 30s, dreading business school reunions, and feeling defensive about my stalled career. I did things like organize school fundraisers with all the confidence of a C level executive, desperate to prove I could be successful at something

When I pursued outside interests to break the routine of being a stay-at-home mom, my father continued to urge achievement and success. The landscapes I painted were amazing – I should send slides to galleries right away. My performance in the play was a show stealer – when would I get my Actors’ Equity card? I had to get downright pugnacious to defend my choices, even at the age of 40! It doesn’t surprise me that many women do as they’re told and prioritize career over marriage and family.

Bell describes a phenomenon she calls splitting, where women actively avoid relationships rather than struggle with the incompatibility between family and a hard charging career:

Anxiety is difficult to tolerate, and rather than experience it, many of the young women I interviewed and work with in my psychotherapy practice split their desire for a relationship off from their professional and self-development desires. Confused about freedom and desire, young women often split their social and psychological options—independence, strength, safety, control, and career versus connection, vulnerability, need, desire, and relationships—into mutually exclusive possibilities in life. Romantic relationships then often become something to be avoided and denigrated rather than embraced.

Katie, a 25-year-old woman I spoke with as part of my research, confided that she worried her single-minded pursuit of a graduate degree might limit her ability to meet a man with whom she could build a life…To put such a high premium on relationships was frightening to Katie. She worried that it meant she wasn’t liberated and was still defined by traditional expectations of women.

Erin Callan, the former CFO of Lehman Brothers, provided a vivid cautionary tale to women adopting this mindset in yesterday’s New York Times. In Is There Life After Work? Callan describes her “leisure time” at the age of 39, when she was well on her way to Wall St. superstardom:

When I wasn’t catching up on work, I spent my weekends recharging my batteries for the coming week. Work always came first, before my family, friends and marriage — which ended just a few years later.

…I don’t have children, so it might seem that my story lacks relevance to the work-life balance debate. Like everyone, though, I did have relationships — a spouse, friends and family — and none of them got the best version of me. They got what was left over.

Callan resigned her job just months before Lehman collapsed in the fiscal crisis of 2008. Without her job, she realized that she had lost her identity as well, and set out to find more meaning in her life. 

I have spent several years now living a different version of my life, where I try to apply my energy to my new husband, Anthony, and the people whom I love and care about. But I can’t make up for lost time. Most important, although I now have stepchildren, I missed having a child of my own. I am 47 years old, and Anthony and I have been trying in vitro fertilization for several years. We are still hoping.

Wow, 47 and still doing IVF – that saddens me. Callan is eager to point out to young women the problem with her failed strategy – the splitting of a life into “now” and “later” doesn’t work very well. 

Sometimes young women tell me they admire what I’ve done. As they see it, I worked hard for 20 years and can now spend the next 20 focused on other things. But that is not balance. I do not wish that for anyone. Even at the best times in my career, I was never deluded into thinking I had achieved any sort of rational allocation between my life at work and my life outside.

…At the end of the day, that is the best guidance I can give. Whatever valuable advice I have about managing a career, I am only now learning how to manage a life.

As women, we face choices. You cannot give 100% of yourself  to a career and another 100% of yourself to your family. You cannot be a superstar in both realms, it is impossible. Over the years, I have known many women who had careers and children – hundreds. I have never known a woman who had a high-powered career and a close relationship to her husband and children. Not one. Maybe Sheryl Sandberg or Marissa Mayer will be the exceptions, but I doubt it. Every single one of us must compromise if we want to find balance in life. 

Think about this now, before you make the choices that will set you irrevocably on one path. What is it that you want to achieve? What kind of legacy do you wish to leave with this one life you have been given? What compromises are you willing to make?

Life splitting is a failed strategy. You can’t afford to save relationships and children for Phase II. Decide what you want your life to be about, and set out to make that happen, beginning today. Your responsibility is not to your parents or your girlfriends. It is to yourself, and your future family, should you decide to have one. 

 

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Abbot
  • Abbot

    The author says:

    “…they have a few different messages coming in, like “your 20s should be a decade that’s all about having as many sexual experiences as possible, diverse sexual experiences with diverse partners; in fact, that’s the way you figure yourself out, but at the same time you better temper that by making sure that it doesn’t go over a certain number.”

    Why do these “authors” never state who is putting out these “messages?” Its gotten to the point that nothing they say is credible and are just pulling stuff out of their asses

    http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/finally-nuanced-look-hookup-culture?page=0%2C0

    .

  • Abbot

    “the splitting of a life into “now” and “later” doesn’t work very well”

    Biology aside, its not working because the notion being fed to women that men are just lining up with catchers mitts to field the leftovers is a major hoax.

    .

  • Abbot

    “your 20s should be a decade that’s all about having as many sexual experiences as possible, diverse sexual experiences with diverse partners; in fact, that’s the way you figure yourself out.”

    Is that how men “figure themselves out?” Via vagina? Why do these feminists constantly repeat this crap over and over? They are actually saying that a woman is not really whole and ready to be in a committed relationship until she has mounted multiple and diverse penises. Are they saying this in hopes that men hear it and just accept thats how their woman got to be who she is, the person you love? Its absolutely fucking revolting. Yeah, grandma was not a full person. These feminists contradict themselves. Sometimes they also say multipenis has no consequence then they spin around and say – it helps you figure yourself out.

  • Jimmy Hensricks

    Another great post, Susan.

  • Passer_By

    This strikes me as a uniquely North Eastern issue. Either that or it’s overstated by focusing on a few outlier women. Granted, it’s been 10-15 years since I associated with a lot of young, single working professional women – typically lawyers, but a few business degree types of various sorts. Some with business degrees. I never met one who wanted to avoid relationships for the benefit of a career, or who in any way felt like she wasn’t supposed to want a relationship. Things might have changed, but the feminist indoctrination in the ’90s seemed at least as strong as now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By, @Tomato

      I never met one who wanted to avoid relationships for the benefit of a career, or who in any way felt like she wasn’t supposed to want a relationship.

      Bastiat Blogger is a college professor who reports that his female students very much feel this way.

      I will say that Leslie Bell’s sample for her book was only 20 women, a shamefully small number on which to draw conclusions. Not only that, in discussing them she has referred to her lesbian and transgender subjects. So who knows how many of these women she interviewed were even interested in motherhood. OTOH, she does refer to having spoken with many women over the years, and sees patients as a therapist, so perhaps she has a good sense of it.

  • Escoffier

    Sheryl Sandberg is focus of evil in the modern world.

    That might be a slight exaggeration.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sheryl Sandberg is focus of evil in the modern world.

      Yeah, she’s terrible. I don’t know why people can’t see her for the self-serving narcissist she is.

  • Red Pill

    Wow. Truth.

  • Lokland

    @PB

    I suspect it is a hyper focus on one rather noticeable group.
    I have female docs/scientists/other smart nerdy professions in my social group as well as run of the mill stuff.

    A few haven’t dated and are career intensive but most are normal and have had a boyfriend while going to school. I’d say this was more normal then is typically believed.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I can totally see this. In most of my real life experience my guy friends who had a FWB, that situation was almost always initiated by the girl (the guys would have been ok dating usually) due to her being too busy with work or school.

  • Tomato

    Passer_By, I’ve never seen it either and I have been surrounded by women graduate students/medical students for the past 10 years.

  • Escoffier

    marissa mayer I am witholding judgement on for the present.

    It is a given that she won’t raise her own child, at least not as long as she retains that job. In a way, she and other corporate uber-wenches are not unlike the great aristocratic ladies of old, who contracted out the raising of their kids. E.g., Churchill saying of his mother: “I loved her, but at a distance.”

    However, those great ladies had virtues the current crop lacks, to say nothing of other differences in society. And, even so, Tacitus says that the decline of Rome began when it became common for patrician mothers to hand their children over to slaves rather than raise them themselves.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      marissa mayer I am witholding judgement on for the present.

      FTR, I support her decision to terminate telecommuting. It’s a sound business decision. She was hired to save Yahoo, not to make it more family-friendly, which is very expensive. I annoyed a number of people yesterday at brunch by taking this “capitalist” view.

      I do agree that taking over an office to install a nursery for her baby is hypocritical, but someone suggested that many male CEOs have private gyms and no one complains. In that light, I see nothing wrong with it.

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    And, even so, Tacitus says that the decline of Rome began when it became common for patrician mothers to hand their children over to slaves rather than raise them themselves.

    Correlation =/= causation dude. Patrician women should have raised their children themselves, but the decline of Rome was due to more general problems in society, not the way patrician children were raised.

  • Jonny

    “Bell describes a phenomenon she calls splitting, where women actively avoid relationships rather than struggle with the incompatibility between family and a hard charging career”

    This is a mouthful of nonsense. If this is true, women are in a sad state. How many jobs are “hard charging”? How many jobs will prevent you from getting married and starting a family? Why would be choice between a career or staying at home so stark?

    Splitting is the intentional giving up of having a life in favor of marrying your career. It’s a new religion of sorts. It is a new nuns lifestyle. It’s time for an intervention.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Splitting is the intentional giving up of having a life in favor of marrying your career.

      Well said, that’s exactly what it is.

  • Escoffier

    Take it up with Tacitus. But I recommend that you understand him correctly first.

  • ExNewYorker

    “This strikes me as a uniquely North Eastern issue. Either that or it’s overstated by focusing on a few outlier women. “

    I can imagine the full blown case of “splitting” would be more typical of the high achieving northeast corridor. However, various less extreme cases are things I see all the time…in a different form: “I don’t have to worry about relationships until later” or “I’ll be able to find a guy when I decided to settle down” (a la Kate Bolick). These sub-forms of splitting effectively raise one’s own career, fulfillment, enjoyment, etc., as coming first before thinking about any other relationship.

    It was this sort of mentality that made my marriage search a decade a ago difficult. It’s not a good thing to marry a woman for whom you don’t come first.

  • Suni

    Hi, lurker here.

    Wonderful post Susan!

    @Passer_by and Tomato, I’m Midwestern with friends all over the country, and this is a prevailing mindset among women my age. I am 25 and will be 26 in October.

    I am looked down on for foregoing an additional professional degree (though I don’t really *need* one) and wanting to be married with children. While not a prude in the least bit, I’m also looked down on for saving myself for marriage. I’m a media professional and am actively staying flexible by doing freelance work on the side and starting my own business on the side specializing in art and design, my passions, for when I do marry. Besides the entrepreneur bug, I want to be able to set my own hours, take a week off when I feel like it, ect. Again, this is a VERY ugly approach to life for many friends and family members. I’m currently single but am actively working on making marriage one of my goals.

    I used to be like many of the young women who look down on me–very anti-relationship thanks to my mom and other women around me. They meant well, but things change when you answer a phone call from your boss’ husband asking when I think she’ll be home…true story. Another time I answered a call from her 5 yr. old daughter asking when mommy will be home (these calls get bounced to me when a line is busy). :(

    Thanks, but no thanks…I’m grateful to have seen the error of my mindset as I was graduating college. For some time now I’ve been an avid lurker on your site and other men friendly/marriage/family sites. Hopefully there will be no in vitro at 47 for me!

    Oh, and before I go I wanted to add my demographic may be a little different than many of those here–I’m a black woman raised in the inner city.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Suni

      Welcome, thank you so much for delurking! You got smart early, and there’s no doubt in my mind you will reap the rewards of this very sensible strategy. I have advised other women in college who already know they want to prioritize family and have flexibility in their careers to choose disciplines that are relatively friendly to part-time work and freelance/subcontracting.

      A disproportionate number of small businesses are being started by working mothers. Having a “trade” or specific skill set is better than being a generalist, as I was. Of all the fields, I think business is the least friendly to women, and there’s a reason for that – it’s costly, and it drives down profitability. Women can write all they want about the need for family-friendly policies in corporations, but who’s going to pay for that? How will American companies be competitive?

  • HanSolo

    The attitude is more for women to use their 20’s for personal/career development and then look for marriage in their 30’s. This attitude is spreading amongst the college-educated class in Latin America too, as I have several female friends in their early to late 20’s that have or had that attitude.

  • Ysabelle AC

    I agree that at the end of the day, be the person man or woman, he or she should choose a path that makes sense to them, not what other people in society expects.

    I kind of give your father credit though. He believed in you and that you could be more, he was very encouraging in whatever you did. That’s more encouragement that many people give their daughters. Sure you chose a different path, but he must have loved you to feel you could achieve what the world still considers “success”.

    vs. when I went to an ivy league college my cousin asked my mother why they were sending me because daughters don’t remain part of the family and there’s no need to waste so much money on me. I would give your father more credit for believing in you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ysabelle AC

      I kind of give your father credit though. He believed in you and that you could be more, he was very encouraging in whatever you did. That’s more encouragement that many people give their daughters.

      It’s true – he was my greatest cheerleader, and he still is. We’re very close. He also taught me to think independently and to speak up for myself. I wonder why so many parents succeed in making their daughters feel a pressure to achieve while failing to give them a voice.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Suni, welcome and glad you delurked! You probably know this but there are at least four regular commenters here who are black women, so you are not alone!

    As to priortizing marriage and family, I definitely agree. I got married right after 26, and although it was a rocky road to get here, I had a wonderful baby boy at 28.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    It may not necessarily be feminists directly indoctrinating the girls but they definitely had a hand in forming the narrative that was “indoctrinated” into the parents that then got passed onto the daughters.

    I think that as word gets out and young women see what’s happening to the older single or childless women that they’ll realize they have to be more realistic and choose relationships earlier, assuming they want them and children.

    Interestingly enough, when I was in consulting, most of the female associates seemed to be married or in an LTR and a lot of the female entry-level consultants were in LTRs–I’d guess about half and half. But I wasn’t in NY and the impression I felt was that the NY office consultants thought they were the best and I imagine that more hard-charging females went there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that as word gets out and young women see what’s happening to the older single or childless women that they’ll realize they have to be more realistic and choose relationships earlier, assuming they want them and children.

      I hope you’re right, that’s a key part of my strategy. There’s a lot of power in cautionary tales.

  • Emmanuel

    @Susan
    Like women today, I too felt anxiety about losing focus and taking my eye off the ball, but when at 25 I met my husband, I began making compromises right away. I’d find a job in NY to be with him, then move with him to Boston, then agree to stay at home with a toddler who was miserable in day care. I recall feeling sheepish about these choices well into my 30s, dreading business school reunions

    Hello Susan. Looks like your blog is still alive and striving! I guess there are no worries about that :-)
    Some of the reasons why I left the USA at some point and never turned back are quite well laid out in the quote of yours just above.
    Business people (among others) over there “fascinate me” when they start talking about family values, yet promoting a corporate world that is precisely aimed at destroying family values for the sake of career achievement i/e corporate executives wanting more and more profit…not for the sake of everybody working for them, but for themselves.
    I was, I must say, depressed or appauled by the way people of both gender over there chose to meet one another, make love, marry, or not, and worst of all have children who, more often than not, where never either enough taken care of or loved enough. This pattern is of course gaining ground in Europe, albeit in a varied, not as extremely “lost and confused” way, but all the same.
    As for relationships and love, well….looks like nowdays values are working at just destroying that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emmanuel

      Good to see you!

      I was, I must say, depressed or appauled by the way people of both gender over there chose to meet one another, make love, marry, or not, and worst of all have children who, more often than not, where never either enough taken care of or loved enough.

      Well, in defense of my fellow American mothers, I have found that many if not most of the highly educated women I know let career take a back seat to family. A lot of them still work, but they stepped off the high-powered track and took jobs where they could predict and control a 40 hour week. Many more work part-time, job share, etc.

      I do know a few women who are in very high pressure jobs, and to a one they are of the “aloof, ball-buster” variety. IOW, they act very much like men. Their kids have been raised either by stay at home dads (which is fine) or they’ve been farmed out to other caregivers. My kids went to school with some kids whose mothers I never met. They didn’t even make it to Back to School Night – just showed up for graduation at the end of 12 years.

  • Bully

    I know a handful of those high ranking exec types where I work – both male and female – and they’re the most miserable people I’ve ever seen despite the money they make. It wouldn’t surprise me if the women were even more miserable though. At least the men have the bonus (personally I consider it a Pyrrhic victory) of it funneling back into their SMV. The women don’t even have that. The executive mothers are the worst of all; and they’re execs in extremely cushy fields (HR) to boot.

    The singleminded pursuit of status is a particularly insidious disease that turns previously happy, warm people into unfeeling simulacra of human beings that only hunger for more, more, more in the attempt to feed the black hole that just keeps growing and growing and growing.

    Pick one thing and do it well. Do not choose the fantasy of ‘having it all’ over the reality of opportunity costs. Splitting your time leads to splitting your benefits.

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    As women, we face choices. You cannot give 100% of yourself to a career and another 100% of yourself to your family. You cannot be a superstar in both realms, it is impossible. Over the years, I have known many women who had careers and children – hundreds. I have never known a woman who had a high-powered career and a close relationship to her husband and children. Not one. Maybe Sheryl Sandberg or Marissa Mayer will be the exceptions, but I doubt it. Every single one of us must compromise if we want to find balance in life.

    Let me get this straight. You’re using Erin Callen, ex-CFO of the company whose collapse revealed everything that was morally wrong with the finance industry, and Sheryl Sandberg, a woman who lazily basks in the reflected false glory of the daily siphoning of souls from their hosts, as an argument that a woman can only be a superstar in one realm of her life?

    How very odd.

    But then you go on to conclude this:

    [Your responsibility] is to yourself, and your future family, should you decide to have one.

    Underneath the sociological polish, this post contains the same narcissistic ideas that get women into trouble in the first place – self-service and the belief they can be superstars (whatever that means – there’s no such thing as a self-made woman). It’s the same old sugar syrup, bottled up as Susan’s Women’s Miracle Elixir (for the mayking of femayle lyves extr’ordinary).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacob Ian Stalk

      Your manner of communication is so unpleasant I find that I simply cannot read your entire comment. Indeed, I wonder what you hope to achieve by leaving it. If you do by any chance wish to be heard and understood, I would suggest a more cordial demeanor. Agreement with me is not a prerequisite for commenting here. Civility is.

  • SayWhaat

    Oof…this post isn’t feel-good, is it?

    I am feeling enormous pressure from my family to have a successful career. They constantly compare me to my friends who are in med school or grad school pursuing “real careers”. I’m supposed to be coming up with a back-up plan in case my stab at the career I want doesn’t pan out — sensible, but how am I supposed to prepare myself for an alternate career while simultaneously preparing my writing portfolio AND prepare for the GRE/GMAT AND look for a relationship AND work at my current full-time job?

    My parents want me to go to a family friend’s upcoming wedding for the sole reason of networking with the groom’s NY friends for contacts in his industry to aid my career. I declined because 1) the trip is not worth the airfare and vacation days, and 2) I know it would not pan out the way my parents want it to because how the fuck do you schmooze at a wedding, especially with your parents watching your every move??

    On top of that, even though my relationship *just* ended, I feel like every day/weekend that goes by without meeting new people is lost time and opportunity that I will never get back. How am I even supposed to meet new people if I’m working all the time, I’m supposed to be taking steps planning my career (dream and alternative), and I know that online dating doesn’t work in my best interests? Even my hobbies aren’t conducive to meeting husband material, but how many additional hobbies do I have the time to take on?

    It’s like I’m carrying this enormous clock with Siri’s voice that keeps telling me that if I don’t meet my future husband within the next 1.5 years, I’ll never get married and have a family.

    What do I do? How do I do it? I need to husband-hunt during every spare moment until it’s clear that it isn’t happening. I need to develop my career to support myself in old age if I end up single forever. I feel torn in a million different directions.

    I’m 23 and I feel like I’m approaching 30. :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      What do I do? How do I do it? I need to husband-hunt during every spare moment until it’s clear that it isn’t happening. I need to develop my career to support myself in old age if I end up single forever. I feel torn in a million different directions.

      First, take a deep breath! I think you do have your priorities straight. That puts you way ahead of the game right there. Can you imagine writing what Erin Callan wrote in 25 years? No way.

      Second, you are young, now is the time to go for broke on the writing. Give yourself a period of time – say, two years – at the end of which you will pursue Plan B if nothing is panning out. That does not mean you have to pursue Plan B now.

      Your parents want the best for you, obviously, but this is an example where you will have to make your choice and communicate that. It’s not easy to stand against parental expectations. I suspect that you will take a different approach with your own kids – I did.

      Hang in there.

  • Mike C

    your 20s should be a decade that’s all about having as many sexual experiences as possible, ***diverse sexual experiences with diverse partners; in fact, that’s the way you figure yourself out.”***

    Is that how men “figure themselves out?” Via vagina? Why do these feminists constantly repeat this crap over and over? They are actually saying that a woman is not really whole and ready to be in a committed relationship until she has mounted multiple and diverse penises.

    Abbott, you didn’t know….male penises are also “knowledge rods”. I believe semen also has this “essence of self-knowledge” contained in it, and each penis and load has a different essence of self-knowledge. Therefore, the more multi-penis a woman engages in the further down the road of self-discovery and self-knowledge she travels.

    The thing I do find most amusing about the feminist sex pozzies are the all the euphemisms they use for sex (empowerment) and all the tangential “benefits” they attribute to multi-penis such as “figuring yourself out”.

    On a different note, excellent post Susan. I know someone who could have benefited from this perspective 10 years ago. Sadly, I do think it is probably too late for her (in terms of family and children) and it is making her a bitter, nasty person. One of my favorite investment bloggers has an expression “you can figure it out now or figure it out later, but the sooner you figure it out the better shape you will be in” regarding a long-term financial/retirement plan. I think the same idea applies to women in their 20s in terms of the maximize career success versus family and children lifeplan. The sooner a woman figures out what SHE really wants (and not her parents or societal messaging) the better off she will be. At some point, biology and life circumstances will make the decision for her as options will start disappearing off the table. 47 and still trying IVF??? That is sad. That is a woman still in denial, and not having accepted that previous life decisions have taken away certain options. She probably has the money to spend in a most certain fruitless endeavor but the average 40+ woman does not.

  • Passer_By

    @Saywhaat

    “On top of that, even though my relationship *just* ended,”

    Wait, what? I’ve been away. Magnum Man flew the coop? I’m sorry to hear that (even if you still think I’m like a pervy uncle).

    “I need to husband-hunt during every spare moment until it’s clear that it isn’t happening.”

    Well, no. I don’t think most people meet their spouses when they are in “husband hunt every spare minute” mode (putting aside arranged marriages and match making). I’m picturing you in Elmer Fudd garb, looking at the camera and saying “Shhhhh. Be vewy vewy quiet. I’m hunting husbands!”

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    FTR, I support her decision to terminate telecommuting. It’s a sound business decision. She was hired to save Yahoo, not to make it more family-friendly, which is very expensive. I annoyed a number of people yesterday at brunch by taking this “capitalist” view.

    As a millienal who works in the tech industry, I strongly disagree. It’s a terrible business decision.

    The brain power of the tech world is skewed young. Yes, the managers and CIOs are Gen Xers and Generation Jones (between Boomers and Xers). However, the developers and driving force behind tech innovation are mostly in their 30s and younger. Millennials care far more about flex time and other fringe benefits than our predecessors did.

    The whole package of what a job is offering employees is considered when accepting a job offer. In a world where the work you do is not tethered to a physical office, working remotely is a perk that is part of the norm. As a result, I suspect a lot of brain drain will occur in coming months as top talent flees from Yahoo in favor of positions with better benefits, perks, and a more stable longterm outlooks (Yahoo has had 3 CEOs in one year. Not a good sign!)

    IMO, the writing is on the wall. Also, the reasons Yahoo publicized for making their decision makes it seem like they cannot manage their employees. (Full disclosure: My boss is nearly 2,000 miles away and manages over 20 other employees in several countries. Yet, my manager able to keep tabs on us and what we’re working on. It’s shows gross incompetence that Yahoo managers didn’t know employees weren’t logging into VPN and doing their work!)

    Anytime you punish every for a few bad apples, prepare for a backlash. Other tech companies are shaking their head.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      I’m happy to stand corrected re the world of tech. I certainly understand why young people would appreciate flexibility in the workplace, and if you’ve got a set of skills in great demand, you can afford to hold out for more. What I’m really responding to is all the feminist press that stresses the need for a total overhaul in American corporate policy to accomodate more women at the top. That’s really what Sheryl Sandberg’s message is – we need companies to make it easier for women to rise to the senior ranks. I disagree, because I don’t see any incremental benefit to having more women at the top. I don’t believe most women really want to make that choice.

  • Bully

    SayWhaat: I’m in a similar position, though I AM 30, and male. There are people in my family that are pressuring me to have kids (not my mother and father, thank God, but my extended family is.) The fact that they are all strict Irish Catholics may have something to do with it. I have already told them nothing doing. It wasn’t an easy conversation to make, but I feel absolutely no one has the right to tell you what path you should take in life.

    I think you should take a long hard look at how you want your life to pan out and choose your path yourself. If you want to stay at 40 hours a week at your career and seek a relationship with your off time instead that is perfectly okay, and don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.

    Also, consider how much you will truly need to support yourself as a single person. Even in Chicago I was able to put down a mortgage on a nice condo on $50k/year. I make much more now but as of now the balance just keeps going into investments and I’ve been living on roughly the same effective salary for about six years now. You do not need six figures+ to live a happy, comfortable life. Far from it.

  • PokerCat

    I find the whole thought of devoting your entire life to a career as sad. It is unbalanced, and to be honest, your contributions will not survive your termination from the organization you currently work, unless you created the firm from the start (maybe).

    Furthermore I have found that the higher you rise, there is a greater sense of diminishing returns, both with salary, and with enjoyment of your career.

    I couldn’t imagine focusing on my career over my wife and children.

  • HanSolo

    @Bully

    You raise an interesting point in terms of propagating one’s genes. I’m not trying to address you or your life specifically but rather the broader issue. One can do “his part” and have children but then it’s in the kids’ hands as to whether the parents’ genes get passed on to the next generation or not. The parents (would-be grandparents) can try to influence things by upbringing, assistance, pressure, etc. but it’s mostly out of their hands.

    I’m thinking about this because in my family there are 6 kids. The oldest had 3. Then the next one is old and never dates so who knows if he’ll ever have kids–not likely, though possible. Then 3 are gay–no kids now or ever in their cases. Then there’s me. I’m my parents’ only hope for further grandchildren. I personally want to have kids so they will get some eventually, I assume.

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    On top of that, even though my relationship *just* ended, I feel like every day/weekend that goes by without meeting new people is lost time and opportunity that I will never get back. How am I even supposed to meet new people if I’m working all the time, I’m supposed to be taking steps planning my career (dream and alternative), and I know that online dating doesn’t work in my best interests? Even my hobbies aren’t conducive to meeting husband material, but how many additional hobbies do I have the time to take on?

    I totally know where you are coming from, believe me. Trying to juggle my job with grad school and my love life is challenging. Online dating has been disappointing, and straight men don’t really flock to pottery classes and theatre.

    Keep your head up though. I know things can be tough, but you are not alone.

  • Escoffier

    SayWhaat, I’m fairly “trad” and take it from me, 23 is not the time to panic.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    You sound like a hard worker and someone that likes to plan for the future so, in light of that, I would tell you to relax and just find an appropriate balance that devotes some time to whatever things you end up choosing to do. Your career will work out fine in the end. You sound like you’re on the worried and over-achieving side of the spectrum (I could be wrong) so you have room to lighten up and still not be anywhere near slackerdom. If you were a total slacker then I wouldn’t give you the advice to chill out.

    I think you should keep doing online dating as a low-effort option where you don’t have to do much work (read the incoming messages and view the guy’s profile takes a few minutes a day likely) but the potential payoff is high because there are some good guys online and you might just find one.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Passer_By

    Yes, we broke up a few weeks ago. We just weren’t right for each other.

    LOL at the Elmer Fudd imagery.

  • SayWhaat

    Thanks for the support, guys. Thinking about this stuff can just get really overwhelming sometimes.

    You sound like you’re on the worried and over-achieving side of the spectrum (I could be wrong) so you have room to lighten up and still not be anywhere near slackerdom.

    You’re not wrong, lol.

    This reminds me of the time I was talking to some Indian kids during college admissions prep season, and I was seriously stressing out because I wasn’t scoring as well as I would have liked on my practice SATs, and I fully believed my mom every time she said I was doomed because I wasn’t scoring 1600s, and they were like, “SayWhaat. You’re in the 7th grade. You have time.”

  • Mike M.

    I’ve noticed that the women who got a family started, then worked on their careers, seem to do better than women who tried career development first.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      I’ve noticed that the women who got a family started, then worked on their careers, seem to do better than women who tried career development first.

      Do you mean do better in general? They’re happier in life? Or do you mean they are more successful in their careers?

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I think you’ll be fine enough careerwise no matter what you do (and I’m talking about within the limits you will pursue) so keep pursuing that but think about what will be most important to you in 20 years from now? Career, husband, kids? I think you can have them all…to some extent…so figure out what is most important to you long term, what sacrifices you might need to do short term to get there and realize you are young.

    I’m not sure how much time you spend on socializing in ways that are helpful towards meeting men but let’s say it’s 5. I think you could stand to take another 3 or 5 and make it 8-10 and that will provide more long-term happiness than using those hours on your job or applications, which I’m assuming you’re spending 60-80 on. Cutting it down to 55-75 will likely still be enough. If it’s not then you have to make the hard decision of whether you want the stressful career that excludes enough energy and time for men or not. It might make sense to keep working hard in your current job for a bit longer (short term sacrifice of dating) and parlay that into grad school or a good recommendation to be used in transitioning to a less time-consuming job.

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t think most people meet their spouses when they are in “husband hunt every spare minute” mode.

    Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it?

    “It will happen when you least expect it.”
    “Love and happiness will find you.”
    “It’ll happen right when you stop looking!”

    vs.

    “Marry and have babies before you’re 30.”
    “Your 20s are for finding a spouse.”
    “Your bio clock starts ticking at 27.”

    How are we supposed to look without looking? : /

  • Bully

    @HanSolo: Totally agreed, and it’s a philosophical conundrum I’ve given some thought to, especially because I’m an only child and this means my bloodline ends with me.

    The eventual decision I came to was that we are sentient beings and that gives us the ability to exercise dominance over our base urges of reproduction and self-preservation. I would find it unconscionable to have children, then demand those same children continue the cycle out of pure self interest. Life is a gift, not a loan. I just do not believe it is right to seek sort of vicarious immortality through the act of mere reproduction.

    If we’re just going to propagate for propagation’s sake and not use these gifts of self determination that we have been given we should just all go back to living in grass huts in the jungle because then we’re back to just being animals.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    SayWhattttt,

    The challenge is to manipulated your life into finding a mate, not challenging yourself to find a husband like it’s your job.

    It’s not, I will head out of the door and find myself a husband today!

    It is, I will go outside and do what I need to do and what I want to do, and I will interact nicely with man and make sure I am exposed to them.

    As opposed to

    I will go outside and do what I need to do and what I want to do, which does not involve men at all and I will act awkward around men because it feels safer than putting myself out there.

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat

    I think there is a happy medium between assuming love will find you by doing nothing, and spending every bit of spare time “husband hunting”. According to Susan, you’re pretty hot. You say you like sex a LOT. Those two things alone are going to put you above 95% of women for most guys, assuming you’re not a bitch (well, to anyone but me ;) ). You’re going to get interest if you get out and about. Maybe now that you lost your V card it will be a bit easier to move into a relationship, since you won’t be putting such great expectations on it. If you’re as hot as Susan says, assume that you will need to be extra friendly since most guys have been conditioned to believe you have no interest.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    So, you needn’t worry, my good friend :)

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it?

    “It will happen when you least expect it.”
    “Love and happiness will find you.”
    “It’ll happen right when you stop looking!”

    “Marry and have babies before you’re 30.”
    “Your 20s are for finding a spouse.”
    “Your bio clock starts ticking at 27.”

    How are we supposed to look without looking? : /

    I know right? If it’s true that “It’ll happen right when you stop looking!”, then God has a twisted sense of humor. However, it would explain why relationship-seeking people seem to have so much trouble while the players and sluts who’re much more meh about commitment seem to have people offering them relationships.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    First of all you have to be open to it (you are), 2nd, you have to put yourself in the environment where you’ll meet reasonable candidates, 3rd you show interest to men. (And the foundation of this is improving one’s looks and personality where possible but that’s another story so let’s leave that alone–and I’m not mentioning this related to you.)

    I think where the looking can go wrong for women is that it makes them not filter well enough and they want to find someone so they accept the wrong guy. Women don’t suffer from appearing too eager nearly as much as men do (that’s more something that players that don’t want commitment complain about–but, women, don’t go all talking about marriage with him on the first couple dates) so it’s not the looking itself that is intrinsically wrong. Also, women who become too needy and clingy can turn off the man but I don’t think most American women have this problem. In fact, more have the opposite problem of being too aloof and not wanting a relationship.

    So, I would say you should look. Just filter well and don’t be needy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      First of all you have to be open to it (you are), 2nd, you have to put yourself in the environment where you’ll meet reasonable candidates, 3rd you show interest to men.

      +1

      I think where the looking can go wrong for women is that it makes them not filter well enough

      +1

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    Take it up with Tacitus. But I recommend that you understand him correctly first.

    Oh duh! I see what you were getting at now. My bad.

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    How are we supposed to look without looking? : /

    I’ve been asking this same question for some time now.

  • HanSolo

    @Bully

    I agree we can exercise dominion over our natural or base desires and that there is more to humanity than just reproducing. You said:

    “I just do not believe it is right to seek sort of vicarious immortality through the act of mere reproduction.”

    Interestingly enough, perhaps without intending too, that’s what the genes of our ancestors did, though. Maybe they didn’t seek it but they achieved it.

    Depending on whether one thinks humanity is just a collection of will-less particles that somehow give the illusion of agency or whether there’s some fundamental power to choose or whether there’s some divine hand involved will influence whether it was a sought result or just arrived at randomly–I personally think there’s something beyond just will-less particles flying around crashing into each other, some deflecting and others sticking and eventually coming apart.

    Throughout most of history people who reproduced did so even when they weren’t intentionally doing so. Now, due to birth control, abortion, prolonged singleness and other factors, people have much more choice and so it will be interesting to discover if there is some genetic component that gives rise to a conscious desire for children (in addition to cultural factors) and those will be the people that tend to have more children than other people of similar cultural background.

    Once again, not saying anything about your particular situation, just musing generally.

  • http://twitter.com/UnendImprov Unending Improvement

    I realize I come from an economically depressed area, but I honestly haven’t seen all these career women. Lots of girls that went to the same high school as me and are within 2 or 3 year of me have a child or 2 already.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I meant to say “a woman should show interest to men that aren’t out of her league.” Not directed at you…but at women who have lists that are longer than they can “afford.” Any woman having trouble getting a man that she likes for long term should get a couple of blunt yet well-intentioned men of good taste to evaluate their looks and personality. I have done that with a few women and I think they found it helpful. However, they were mature (not old) and not into defending their ego at the expense of helpful truth.

  • jack

    There are going to be an awful lot of lonely people my age in a few years.

    Once these early opportunities are lost, they can never be regained. And I am not about to be second marriage material for a foolish girl who mis-spent her earlier years.

  • The Bennetts

    “It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    The reason parents do this is because all of us have seen at least one, but often more, case of a young woman, sometimes even just fresh out of high school, who thinks she’s “in love” and who give up all her plans, hopes and dreams about anything else other than the equally immature “boy” (because that’s what they are) she’s “in love” with.

    As adults who’ve been round the block a few times we know its just infatuation and that it will not last, but to her, he’s “the one” and there’s nothing nobody can say to convince her otherwise. Of course she’s throwing her life away, well at least a good chunk of its most formative and productive years, as we witness the rise and fall and ultimate demise of her “relationship”.

    After the break up she often has to move back in with her parents completely broke and with no marketable skills.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Iggles “As a millienal who works in the tech industry, I strongly disagree. It’s a terrible business decision.”

    I cosign this whole post. I work from home all the time, as do my coworkers with AND without kids. It’s a great perk.

    SayWhaat and Sassy “How are we supposed to look without looking? : /”

    I think it’s better to really keep your eyes open and like others have said, put yourself in suitable environments and show interest. Try to put yourself in a place where the male to female ratio is more favorable. For example, there are conventions that go through all the time. Lots of them, like car shows, gun shows, tech shows, have more men than women.

    Also… let it be known you are single. I think this was one of the reasons my husband talked to me. I was like “It’s Valentine’s Day, and I’m lonely,” and he happened to hear me. We chatted, and I thought he was interesting, so I asked him for his private contact information. He later told me that he thought it was weird, because he saw no need for us to communicate outside of the game. But doing so led to us talking to each other all the time.

    Finally, don’t be ashamed to be seen “spouse hunting.” Funny story about two of my coworkers. They were initially romantically interested in each other, but they had religious differences. So they went their separate ways but were still obviously in “spouse hunting” mode. One of them found a girl in his friend’s church, and the other one found a guy in the IT department at work. The guy’s wife just gave birth recently, and the girl got married a few months ago. It seems like because they put their mind to it, it really happened fast.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also… let it be known you are single. I think this was one of the reasons my husband talked to me.

      Yes! Get over any discomfort and put the word out – you’re looking for the real deal. Encourage friends to set you up or invite you to group gatherings with other single people. It’s really just a form of networking – and paired off people will happily fill this role for their single friends if given some encouragement. It may not always be the case that they have someone in mind, but in general it’s good to let it be known that you are available – just as if you were looking for a job!

  • The Bennetts

    “your 20s should be a decade that’s all about having as many sexual experiences as possible, ***diverse sexual experiences with diverse partners; in fact, that’s the way you figure yourself out.”***”

    ” Is that how men “figure themselves out?” Via vagina? Why do these feminists constantly repeat this crap over and over? They are actually saying that a woman is not really whole and ready to be in a committed relationship until she has mounted multiple and diverse penises.”

    This is the general attitude even on teen, and believe it or not, pre-teen sex ed websites. They don’t come out and say it like above, but there is a very strong “no judgement, no shame, no guilt, exploration and experimentation is natural and normal” ethic that you don’t even have to read between the lines to notice. They say anything goes as long as its safe (meaning condoms are used if its male and female sex and same sex oral sex, they advice condoms for that too to prevent STDs), consensual and respectful of each others “boundaries”. Boundaries seems to be a buzzword. I think its replaced “morals” in today’s age.

    One site that is geared towards teen and pre-teen girls was discussing “fisting” in a very objective manner, pros and cons, and how to make it “pleasurable” and safe.

    I don’t know what to make of all this myself.

  • The Bennetts

    “Some of the reasons why I left the USA at some point and never turned back are quite well laid out in the quote of yours just above.
    Business people (among others) over there “fascinate me” when they start talking about family values, yet promoting a corporate world that is precisely aimed at destroying family values for the sake of career achievement i/e corporate executives wanting more and more profit…not for the sake of everybody working for them, but for themselves.”

    Better watch out there Mister. Someone’s gonna peek their head in and call you a “commie”. Or worse yet, a ……….SOCIALIST!!!!

    ;)

  • HanSolo

    Letting men know that you’re interest in dating (but not desperate) is huge. It’s like a catalyst that effectively lowers the repulsive electric barrier and allows the reaction to occur.

  • Sai

    I appreciate the honesty in this post, because I too am guilty of “the people here are idiots, get a job, don’t be inadequate, make some money, don’t be poor, don’t starve, don’t waste your life doing nothing you want, don’t be broke, don’t be shiftless!” Sometimes it’s like “The Ten Commandments” and I’m both the Hebrew slave and the whip-cracking Egyptian, and there isn’t even Vincent Price.
    Cross your fingers for me, folks. I’ll do the same for you.

    @MikeC
    “Abbott, you didn’t know….male penises are also “knowledge rods”. I believe semen also has this “essence of self-knowledge” contained in it, and each penis and load has a different essence of self-knowledge. Therefore, the more multi-penis a woman engages in the further down the road of self-discovery and self-knowledge she travels.”

    LMAO

    @SayWhaat
    Everyone else has said it better than me, but you’re proactive and sane and I think you’ll be OK in the future.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    “The Ten Commandments” and I’m both the Hebrew slave and the whip-cracking Egyptian, and there isn’t even Vincent Price.
    At least you are not a first born ;)
    And you won the Internet for the reference. :D

  • Abbot

    “This is the general attitude even on teen, and believe it or not, pre-teen sex ed websites.”

    Whacky politics aside, this guy is saying a lot that is true. But why is this happening? What is the larger agenda?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XR9yH2ETk

    .

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Speaking as a practicing capitalist, I disagree with Marissa’s decision about telecommuting.

    1)While it’s true that there is much value in personal interaction among people, the people who need to interact are often not in the same physical location. For instance, a product manager in city A may need to have close relationships with a sales support manager in city B, a marketing communications manager in city C, and an engineering manager in city D…these relationships may be much more important that his relationship with other people in city A. I don’t know anything about how Yahoo is geographically spread out, but this kind of dispersion is very common, especially in companies that have grown via acquisition.

    2)There are surely many employees who were hired with the explicit or implicit understanding that they would be able to work from home. By negating this agreement, Marissa is disempowering the managers who made the commitments and sending a message of centralization.

    3)In line with the above, if she doesn’t trust her senior executives to run their own organizations properly, she should get rid of them and put in people she does trust.

    4)To the extent that the objective is partly to get people to leave in order to reduce expenses…I thought everyone who had been in a management position for very long knew that when you pursue such a strategy, the ones who leaves are precisely the ones you want to keep, and the ones who stay are the ones you wish would go.

    I think the proper way to reduce staff in a business, when necessary, is by explicit decisions, not the (governmental) style of making things unpleasant and getting people to leave on their own. No fun for anyone, but sometimes must be done.

    No question, it’s Marissa’s call, but I think it’s an unfortunate one.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    1)There are a lot of people who work at home (or would like to) who don’t have babies, or, for that matter, in some cases, spouses.

    2)Prior to the Industrial Revolution, all kinds of industries were carried out at home with children there. Textiles production, for example, often involved the wife spinning and the husband weaving, sometimes with a couple of apprentices in the mix.

    In today’s world, is it really impossible to do (say) a graphic design job with a 10-year-old playing in the background and sometimes interrupting?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think the proper way to reduce staff in a business, when necessary, is by explicit decisions, not the (governmental) style of making things unpleasant and getting people to leave on their own. No fun for anyone, but sometimes must be done.
    I agree even the ones that can stay now will label the place as “unsafe” because any decision might change their arrangement in a moment’s notice. Nothing to make people to start looking for another job than insecurity. She is an idiot, IMO.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    The Bennetts…”It depends if the graphic designer is good at multi-tasking or not.”

    Which is precisely the reason the decision should be left a lower-level manager who knows the employee and his/her abilities and characteristics. If the chief executive believes the lower-level managers who are pushovers who can’t be trusted to do this properly, that’s a whole other problem.

    Also, the average corporate or government office environment is not exactly interruption-free. Our graphic designer is most unlikely to have his/her own private office. Much more likely (s)he will be in a cubicle, with people talking on the phone in cubicles on two sides and random people dropping in to have work-related (or not) conversations at any given moment.

  • Steve G.

    Maybe Sheryl Sandberg or Marissa Mayer will be the exceptions, but I doubt it.

    Riddle me this:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323884304578328271526080496.html
    If men have no objections to female bosses, then from whence cometh the Glass Ceiling?

  • Ted D

    Saywhaat – “How are we supposed to look without looking? : /”

    I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but is comment made me chuckle. Mostly because I completely understand the frustration you are feeling.

    Every single one of my LTR mates were “accidents” in that I met them all by chance.
    1. Went to a HS party with a girl I was crushing on. She left with some other kid, and I sat next to her in a corner. Two introverts sitting in the dark at a party. Lol
    2. Took my cousin somewhere (because her car went belly up) and dropped her off with a friend offers. We chatted and hit it off.
    3. Met my ex at a band practice. Her brother was filling in on bass one day and she came by to pick him up after.
    4. Met my current wife at a friends house one Friday night I was over taking some adult time to get my head straight from my impending divorce. She had just moved in two doors down and met my friends wife earlier that week. Friends wife invited her over so she wouldn’t be bored spending Friday night with her hubby and his friend.

    So the point is: I never had a relationship with a woman I approached and asked out. They were all introduced through social circle of some sort, and in each case I was not actually looking at the time.

    Don’t know how to turn that into practical advice though. :-p

  • Bully

    @Susan:

    I’m a guy that has no plans on raising a family, but to me, child when young and career later makes all the sense in the world to me when I look at it. Retirement age is what, 65? I started my career right out of college at 23 and even as I celebrated my 7 year anniversary at my company, I had the sobering thought that I was still more than double my elapsed lifetime to retirement. That’s all of school + post secondary and almost a decade at my company. If a woman has kids right out of college and enters the workforce at 30, that is still a hell of a lot of time left to make a name for yourself.

    Compare that to delaying childbirth and the associated costs of fertility treatment, difficulty conceiving, and increased risk of birth defects.

    Maybe I’m looking at it wrong but it seems like a no-brainer.

  • Abbot

    “A lot of the other stuff may have been over the top but the over the top stuff are not the ONLY things PP is doing”

    Its like a good bill being proposed in the US Congress. Lots of less good gets mixed in so it can ride the with the good. PP operates the same way. Its how they get the tax payer to foot the bill for services feminists always wanted the public to pay for.

  • Abbot

    “If men have no objections to female bosses, then from whence cometh the Glass Ceiling?”

    When women figured out they didn’t want to compete with men.

  • HanSolo

    “How are we supposed to look without looking?”

    Wrong question. You should look–just don’t be desperate or undiscerning. ;)

  • J

    Business people (among others) over there “fascinate me” when they start talking about family values, yet promoting a corporate world that is precisely aimed at destroying family values for the sake of career achievement i/e corporate executives wanting more and more profit…not for the sake of everybody working for them, but for themselves.

    Yes, indeed. America is a “live to work culture” as opposed to a “work to live culture.” I spent some time in Europe when I was in my twenties and was impressed at how, although people had less stuff, they had better, fuller lives.

  • J

    @Say Whaat

    Sweetie, I’m probably your parents’ age or older , and I’m also pretty much invested in my sons’ material success, but even I have to tell you that your life is your own. Don’t live it in accordance with their expectations; pursue your own happiness. I spent a lot of time trying to make my parents happy; those were wasted years.

    In fact, I’d extend that advice to everyone regarding the expectations of whomever. Everyone has opinions about the lives of others, but in the end we come into the work alone and we leave alone. Ultimately, we can’t live for others. That’s not to say we should live narcissistically, but we need to realize that we responsible to and for ourselves.

  • Mac

    @Bully has some good points.

    If you and your spouse are starting off with little kids both at the start of your careers, you have to negotiate who gets to do what career-wise vs caring for the kids. Because the kids are already there. Once things take off without any of the accommodating needed for a family, it is a lot harder — mostly for men I think — to cut back for kids. So the wife sacrifices almost every time. For the kids. No one ever goes on, like @Escoffier, to chide *men* that they won’t raise their own child.

  • Passer_By

    @thebennets

    ““How are we supposed to look without looking?” Sunglasses.”

    Momma always told me not to look into the light of the sun. But mommmaaaa!!! That’s where the fun is!

  • Josie88

    I have no idea if the subject of working class moms has been touch on.

    Growing up among working class parents and working at entry level jobs, I notice that it is much more difficult for working class moms.

    One of my former coworker was complaining to me about how she almost never saw her kids because she has to work 40 hours a week for minimum wage.

    She had children young (she is now divorced, and is about 30 years old). Both she and her mom works for the same company as machine operators for the past ten years.

    She sends her kids off to school in the morning because she works the late shift, but when she comes home after a 8 hour on the job, it is already time to bed.

    Her mom work the morning shift and gets out in the afternoon, and pick up her children. Her ex-husband gets the kids on the weekends. There were also a lot of ethnic minorities working for the same company, and must balance works and raising a family.

    Moreover, what about the black/asian/hispanic women who leaves their kids with their families while they act as nannies to wealthy, affluent white women?

  • Josie88

    From my understanding, college educated girls are more successful at getting married and enjoying a rewarding career.

    If one have children too young, they are more likely to end up working dead end jobs.

  • angelguy

    This whole life splitting thing affects Men too.
    With the economy being the way it is now, Women are competing with Men for the same work, to support themselves.
    A salary to raise a family doesn’t go as far as it used to.
    That is why, many women are under pressure to pursue a “Career”.
    It is not just what society says, economics.
    So the idea of being a housewife, and having a Man be the sole breadwinner is an outdated concept.

    I think we as a society have to look at how Economics affect the family.
    If the economy was more balanced, perhaps people will feel more inclined to get married.

  • angelguy

    I also think that North America is letting corporations get away with too much, and causing Salaries to drop to low.
    The american dream was built on hard work, but if there are no incentives, and pay off, then things don’t progress.

    Corporate America has a lot to answer for….their time will come.

  • Abbot

    It fails because of human nature.

    Here is an evo-psych book that feminists are going to embrace. All nice and cozy and such

    http://www.amazon.com/Paleofantasy-Evolution-Really-Tells-ebook/dp/B007Q6XM1A

    .

  • Anne

    @ SayWhaat
    ” I feel like every day/weekend that goes by without meeting new people is lost time and opportunity that I will never get back.”

    I feel as if I could have written this! I am 22, but turning 23 this year. Even though early twenties is when you’re “starting out” at meeting someone and pursuing an education, there is so much focus on being young, that I feel like I should be in “my prime”, having everything together.
    I think it’s a bit of a comfort that so many people extend their adolescence though (bad for them, good for me). I know women in their late twenties, like my sister, who has got nothing figured out. I even know some girls who say they will start looking for a husband at 30. So if you’re 23 and already have the attitude that 1) You must spend your twenties wisely and 2) Never waste time on guys that aren’t serious prospects, I think you’re ahead of many :)
    There are a lot of men on the internet making girls freak out by saying they are practically off the market at 25. Looking at the way things actually are, most of the high quality men I know (who absolutely have options) have found girls that are 26-27 to settle down with. If you continue to develop your personality, you’ll be overall more desirable at 26 than now. If you don’t waste your time on assholes from 23, I think you’re on track.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So if you’re 23 and already have the attitude that 1) You must spend your twenties wisely and 2) Never waste time on guys that aren’t serious prospects, I think you’re ahead of many…most of the high quality men I know (who absolutely have options) have found girls that are 26-27 to settle down with. If you continue to develop your personality, you’ll be overall more desirable at 26 than now. If you don’t waste your time on assholes from 23, I think you’re on track.

      +1!!!

      The regulars on this blog have nothing to worry about, IMO. Just being aware puts you in good shape – so many women are just frittering away months (or years!) on end as if they have all the time in the world.

  • Escoffier

    Try not to waste your time with assholes before you are 23, too, because doing so lowers your MMV.

  • Anne

    @Escoffier
    Sure, but as long as a woman is attractive, actively dating and trying to get the best man she can get, she will encounter one or two. Those experiences are necessary to know how to get the right husband. Only important thing is to learn as much as possible and keep the N low.
    As for sex before marriage, I know there are different POVs there. My personal one is that waiting, unless you’re very religious and looking for a religious man, is a bad idea. I wouldn’t count “relationships” which didn’t include sex as experience, but I know this is a bit of a minefield.

  • Joe

    @Josie

    If one have children too young, they are more likely to end up working dead end jobs.

    Well, it’s a little obvious to say, but true nonetheless. You can end up in a dead end job even if you don’t have children. And since there are many more dead end jobs than not, most likely, you will. If you don’t, that’s gravy.

    My mother (who had six children) used to say “If we had waited until we could afford you kids, we wouldn’t have had any of you!” He smile let us know that what she meant was that money wasn’t the primary reason for starting a family.

  • Escoffier

    Anne,

    Be careful here. What you wrote could be interpreted to mean (and for all I know was intended to mean) “I had to have my fun with sexy alphas to become the wonderful catch whom I now am, but I’m done now and ready to settle for you.” Many, many guys will run from that.

  • Anne

    @ Escoffier
    No, that’s not what it means at all. That’s what you want it to mean. It means that a person with SOME sexual experience has a very different outlook to someone with none. I never said that sex should be with alphas.
    Very few people find the person they want to settle down with at 18. That doesn’t mean they were sleeping with alphas.
    There are “obvious” assholes (which any sane woman would steer clear from) and there are men who are capable of stringing you along, pretending they want commitment and so on. Many of them. As painful as some of those experiences may be, they will help you learn what you want and not want and how men think. A virgin doesn’t know anything about what kind of emotional attachment sex can bring either. If I was a virgin now, I would feel like I started way behind everybody else. I am not promoting promiscuity by any means, I am just promoting giving it a shot with someone you care about to see if it’ll work, and that includes sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      there are men who are capable of stringing you along, pretending they want commitment and so on. Many of them. As painful as some of those experiences may be, they will help you learn what you want and not want and how men think

      Many women get burned by a cad or two, and IMO the sooner the better. There are indeed important life lessons there, and it’s a good way to learn what NOT to go for in a man.

      The data shows that many women try hooking up freshman year, and the numbers drop off dramatically after that. Clearly, many people learn their lesson.

      I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,” but the reality is that a lot of girls have a terrible experience with Alpha, never try it again, and are all too happy to partner with someone more LTR worthy in the future.

  • Escoffier

    That’s not what I “want” it to mean, but that is what it often “does” mean.

    I think you vastly overestimate the importance of sexual experience in imparting wisdom. Personally (as someone who has studied epistemology more than a little) I believe that is a a phony argument spun up by hamsters in order to rationalize away bad and/or self-indulgent past decisions.

    Susan and I disagree on this, FWIW.

  • Tomato

    “If a woman has kids right out of college and enters the workforce at 30, that is still a hell of a lot of time left to make a name for yourself.”

    Except agism is alive and well, and plenty of companies would rather hire the 20-something fresh out of training instead of the 30-something who took a break and often has not kept up with changes in technology and the field. Worse, they would rather hire the person in another country who will work for less and doesn’t have the agency to complain when the company dumps waste into their air and water.

  • Tomato

    Is the problem that women are having sex with alphas before settling down, or having sex, period? In other worse, would the apparent revulsion be tempered if these women had sex with betas or any other greek letter? Let’s be realistic, it’s not like women in their 20s are only having sex with alphas.

  • Abbot

    “a person with SOME sexual experience has a very different outlook to someone with none”

    Then it follows that a person with a lot of sexual “experience” has a very different outlook than a person with some. Its simply amazing that we are all just figuring out how impactful multipenis utilization is to a woman. Rock on.

  • Anne

    I wouldn’t have a problem to “agree to disagree” unless there is judgment and anger lurking behind the argument.
    All I’m really advocating is to go on some dates, see who you click with, and once you meet someone you care about who appears to care about you, take a leap of faith and give it a chance. It’s not casual sex and I don’t think it’s crazy. I just don’t see excluding oneself from the market as a good strategy for meeting a husband, which is why I can see that those who want to remain virgins until marriage will struggle.
    The idea that those who do date and have sex with a potential boyfriend secretly hate themselves for it in retrospective and try to “rationalize” it away is really far off to me. The only women I know with this attitude are those with high numbers who have slept around and are later being judged.

  • Escoffier

    Tomato:

    Quanitity and quality are both issues.

  • Lokland

    @Anne

    “There are a lot of men on the internet making girls freak out by saying they are practically off the market at 25.”

    50% of men are married at 25 with an average 0f 2-3 years in courtship/dating.

    To be correct, half the men are off the market by the time they are 26 (which with the average age for women corresponds to 24).

    Still a large pool but the number of potential husbands is halved by the time a woman is 24 (average age of marriage 26).

  • Lokland

    Pardon, 50% of men are married at 28. not 25.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    From the article: “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value relationships with men so highly?”

    Has anyone noticed what a bizarre question this is? Would anyone ask:

    “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value my cat or dog so highly?”

    “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value attractive clothing and jewelry so highly?”

    “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value eating lunch and dinner so highly?”

    The real question is why anyone would think that being “highly educated” and “in the 21st century” would negate basic human desires.

    C S Lewis, in his fantasy novel That Hideous Strength, posited a sinister cabal which seeks, as part of its indoctrination proceedures, to kill “all specifically human reactions” in its new members.

    Is that what is being done by higher education in its intersection with popular culture?

  • Escoffier

    1) Dating without sex is not “excluding oneself from the market.” From the SMP, yes (by definition) but not from the DMP or MMP.

    2) It is far from evident that discerning the character of a potential mate, much less sniffing out the assholes, requires having sex with them.

    3) It’s not that these women secretly hate themselves (although some do). It’s that in some level, they know that men are troubled by their sexual past and that fact troubles themselves as well. So they come up with ex-post-facto justifications for why what felt good in the moment was actually character building and a virtue–a “positive good” you might say.

    Certainly there are plenty of men who will overlook a boyfriend or two (or three). However, two points about that are important to understand. A key word here is “overlook.” No man is going to say, either to himself or aloud, “I’m so glad you have that extra experience, it makes for a better you.” Actually, one type of man will say this (to himself): the player, because he thinks that the more prior experience a girl has, the easier lay she will be. But that aside, men who are seeking a girl for commitment will overlook a mild sexual past but they won’t be happy about it for its own sake.

    Second, the principle state, once accepted, can lead to all kinds of excess that damages a girl’s MMV. There is no clear line between what separates an acceptably low and qualitatively acceptable level of experience from “too much.” In practice, what any man will tolerate will vary from guy to guy. Which means that, in practice, the more lovers you have, and the more sex with alphas and in ONSs and flings , the more potential husbands you rule out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Dating without sex is not “excluding oneself from the market.” From the SMP, yes (by definition) but not from the DMP or MMP.

      We know that the market of potential suitors for women who want to wait until marriage is mostly limited to religious communities. We’ve seen men here admit they don’t want to get with a virgin, we’ve seen women report guys rejecting them upon learning this, and we’ve seen portrayals in the media of female virginity being very uncool.

      I recently heard a young woman describe her best college friend as a virgin at 23, and her boyfriend, said, “Whoa, seriously? That’s pretty weird.” This is a total beta good guy.

      In a society where marriage occurs as late as it does today, preserving one’s virginity for marriage makes dating harder, not easier. Of course, I respect any woman’s decision to wait – and I think that most of those women know exactly what an uphill battle they’re facing.

  • Tomato

    So if one can determine quantity by asking for N, how exactly does one determine quality? Do background checks on all the men she supposedly slept with?

    A woman could move to another city, “reinvent” herself, and her suitors would never know.

    “Still a large pool but the number of potential husbands is halved by the time a woman is 24 (average age of marriage 26).”

    But divorce will put a sizable percentage of those married men back on the market, sometimes within a year or two of marriage. (The quality of said men may be lower than the starting pool, however.)

  • SayWhaat

    A virgin doesn’t know anything about what kind of emotional attachment sex can bring either.

    I disagree. I was well aware of the emotional attachment sex could bring when I was a virgin. That’s precisely the reason I was a virgin — I wanted to have sex in a relationship where I wouldn’t have to worry about letting my feelings grow unfettered.

    Also, Anne, there are many virgins who just haven’t had the opportunity for sex yet. Virginity =/= religion.

  • Escoffier

    “A woman could move to another city, ‘reinvent’ herself, and her suitors would never know.”

    Maybe. But:

    1) She might give off certain “tells” in spite of herself (this is a controversial idea, but one with some merit IMO).

    2) The strain of living a lie can be very exhausting and burdensome.

    3) On some level, she will know that her man is only with her under false pretenses and she will never know if he loves the real her or only the phony her. This can be debilitating to her self-esteem and happiness.

  • Bully

    @Tomato: I think the number is most important. Obviously it’s not realistic to expect that your wife is virginal in this day in age… but I don’t think it’s particularly worthwhile to obsess over whether a woman’s prior three (or whatever) lovers where alphas or betas but in all likelihood if they are alpha chasing as opposed to relationship chasing their number is going to be much higher.

    Re: ageism: this may be a corporate culture thing but at my fortune 100 megacorp it’s exceedingly rare to get hired at all before 30, even for the entry level positions. I was sort of an anomaly; something like 2% or less of our new hires are right out of college.

  • Anne

    @ Lokland
    I see what you’re saying.
    I assume this is a side effect of fewer men pursuing a college degree. I read once before that American men will look for a wife approx. two years after they’ve finished their education. So men with high school will settle down first, those with a bachelor’s degree next, those with a master’s degree last.
    What that means, to me, is that a woman who is looking for a man with a higher degree of education should be looking at men at the age between 26 and 30 (depending on where she lives). If half of men are married by the age of 25, I am not entirely convinced that is the better half, to be blunt. Of course a man doesn’t have to have a Msc to be a good husband. But it is obvious to everyone that it’s what many women are looking for. I can’t speak for all women here, it will depend on her options with men. There aren’t enough of those men to go around for everyone.

    I know this blog is American, so I’m coming at this from a different POV. The average age of marriage for men in the UK is around 30, 31 in France and Switzerland, 33-35 in Scandinavia (where I’m from, can reveal that at this point). The highest number of marriages for women happens between 25 and 29 (which also mean their husbands are a bit older).

    I can add that I don’t know anyone who’s ever saved themselves till marriage – the concept is just foreign to me. The US is in many ways more conservative (at least parts of it)

  • Abbot

    “The only women I know with this attitude are those with high numbers who have slept around and are later being judged.”

    Judged by whom and in what manner? With words or mere inactions?

  • Tomato

    Escoffier, all of those points are valid.

    Bully, it is true that hiring age is dependent on the company/field. And perhaps my comments about the wariness about the 30-something are exaggerations. I have certainly seen bias against hiring 40+ individuals, which could happen to someone who got a college degree, paused to have/raise children, and then got a PhD before trying to enter the job market.

  • Anne

    Abbot:
    By me haha. Well that is the case for my sister, not outright judging with words, but she knows how I feel about her “situation”. Inaction is probably the right word – she knows I don’t come to her for advice about guys because I don’t want to end up like her.
    In general, some girls are judging themselves. They will try to justify what needs justification even if they aren’t openly judged by anyone.
    Very few girls would actually say something to another, there is a very strong “mind your own business” attitude.

  • Tomato

    Here is the dichotomy as I see it:

    Talented, highly-driven men can pursue high-performance jobs (doctor, lawyer, scientist, etc.) AND have children (because their wives raise them). This is double-plus good for society (a talented person is contributing all of their talents, plus that talented person has passed along their genes/talented traits).

    Talented, highly-driven women cannot (?) do both. Which means they must either sacrifice their talents for a lower-performance job (society loses out because a talented person is not contributing their full talents) or not have children (society loses out on the perpetuation of talented genes/traits). Society loses either way.

    Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?

  • Abbot

    “men who are seeking a girl for commitment will overlook a mild sexual past but they won’t be happy about it for its own sake.”

    Because a man knows it adds nothing positive to who she is (neutral at best) and certainly adds nothing positive to his relationship with her. This despite all the feminist claws out to get him to see it otherwise.

  • Abbot

    “Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?”

    Yes. This guy says that such men are Type-1 and can be used soon after she is done with all the Type-2.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeL-Fn0V8iU

    .

  • Passer_By

    @tomato
    “Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?”

    They should, I guess, but most of them won’t or can’t, and many of those who do will end up not being attracted to their husbands. Hypergamy is a bitch.

  • J

    Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?

    I know a few female doctors who have househusbands. These are 25 year + marriages and seem happy.

  • Tomato

    Not all women are affected by hypergamy, though, if we’re defining hypergamy as “must earn more than me/have more status than me.”

  • Abbot

    There are glimpses of hope that get around the hypergamy problem. But feminists exacerbate it by pushing their sex-positive cult.

  • blogRot

    @ ayWhaat, @Sassy6519

    “”How are we supposed to look without looking? : /””

    “I’ve been asking this same question for some time now.”

    *Positioning*. Its been mentioned but bears repeating – guys notice and look at gals. We do. But we can’t if you’re cloistered away at home. You have to Position yourself in an enviroment to encounter men. Not just bars, coffee shops, clubs, or like socializing locales, but any place that puts you in but a fleeting moment of contact with a man (~ a half dozen a day, once you start noticing these moments).
    You could drop a friendly comment to the guy shopping next to you in the dog&cat food aisle at Target (as happened to me) or the guy working the garden center at Home Depot on the weekends. A small, friendly opening is what you’ll have to initiate to SUBDUE rejection fear paralysis that most all men have. And then *do* nothing more, just react if need be, and move on.
    [i] The man you want will remember you. [/i]
    Eventually you’ll be at your neighborhood grocery, hardware store, bank, sandwich shoppe, gas station, wherever, and the chance Positioning encounter is him again (even if you don’t really remember him), and, well… there it is: one of the seeds that Positioning placed has grown into something small and fragile, and if you choose you can nurture that budding relationship into something grand. Or maybe Positioning will work some other way – there are many paths to any successful pairing and chances are it will not be the path that your mind is picturing.
    Church used to be a place to Position because the man could reasonably know that you’d be there the following week, and guys need the time to build ‘just go for it’ courage greater than the Fear of Rejection – so if we know you’ll be there next Sunday we’ve got all week to mentally prepare.
    My wife’s bff, over multiple weekend visits to that Home Depot garden center, and despite being in her gardening clothing, had positioned herself in to a phone # exchange and their eventual relationship.

    *Positioning* is what makes the husbands’ saying “she chased me until I caught her” possible.

  • Tomato

    Yes, bars are a horrible place to meet a mate. What do you enjoy doing? If it’s being outdoors/active, get outside and consider joining a club or team. If it’s reading, hang out at the library or bookstore. If it’s cooking, take a cooking class. Volunteering is a great way to meet people, whether at the soup kitchen or at Habitat for Humanity (and there’s plenty of men in the latter).

    That way you can “position” yourself while having fun and learning new skills at the same time!

  • Jackie

    @Escoffier

    Esco, you seem to have very strong opinions about this without ever giving a tell about your own actions in this matter. This makes me question not only the validity of your responses, but also your right to the moral high ground as well.

    At least three times, I’ve asked you direct questions that you haven’t replied to. For example, in the last thread you had no qualms about volunteering the sexual responses/practices of a former girlfriend (which no one asked you about, to my knowledge).

    Yet you never replied to my direct question if you were a practicing Christian. You were quick to use Biblical arguments to dismiss gay marriage, but haven’t spoken about how those same moralities have applied to you.

    Theoretically, I should be on your “side”: I am reserving sex for marriage. Yet, reading about how you insisted on knowing the “N” of this former girlfriend, then sharing her devastation over you breaking up with and how she never got over you (not to mention posting what she was like in bed) … It just seems like there is so much cognitive dissonance in your posts.

    Would you want your daughter to be treated the way you treated this man’s daughter, I wonder?

    Besides that, you have mentioned that you are far-rightwing, IIRC. Yet it is implied in your posts that you lived with your wife before marriage, and hid this from your parents. I apologize if I am mistaken– that is why I asked you direct questions earlier.

    What I am trying to say is: Congruity. The reason Susan has such power and sway is because she is consistently congruent. Susan has a different viewpoint from me, but I don’t feel threatened by it the same way you do. On the contrary, I feel she supports me in my quest, even though she has an alternative perspective.

    Again, I apologize if I am mistaken about you. I just believe practicing congruity is the best way to make the changes you wish to see.

  • Escoffier

    I have said in the past that the reason I shared the story of that college GF was precisely as a cautionary tale. At the time, no one around me–not anyone I knew personally, not anyone in the whole culture who had my ear–would say that anything whatever was wrong with our relationship. Years later, her mother (so I am told) continued to speak fondly of me even though she new her daughter was still quite hurt about the whole thing. Moreover, even today, what we did follows the “script” for so-called restricted or good girls. Therefore, it’s A-OK.

    Yet, as I noted, it didn’t really work out for the girl, did it? Hence, maybe there are limitations or drawbacks to the “script.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Tomato, most men feel more confident when they make more than their wives. For the first three years of our marriage, I made more than my husband while he was attending grad school, and I basically supported us, which I didn’t mind at all. Now he makes more, and I can tell he is happy about it.

    Even though I am not very hypergamous, there is definitely a part of me that is proud to have him be more accomplished than me. Men often get depressed and into a downward spiral if they don’t feel like they can provide. There have been lots of cases even here in HUS where girls who way out-earned their significant others had breakups over that and issues associated with it.

    I also think it’s unrealistic to expect men to be househusbands. Most men are not interested in that. The exceptions only prove the rule.

  • Escoffier

    Oh, and regarding my own daughter: unlike some in the manosphere, I don’t hold the male in such situations entirely blameness. But like them, I place a large responsibility for avoiding such situations on the female. Which is exactly what I intend to teach her.

  • OffTheCuff

    I think the Yahoo decision was the right move for a flailing company. And, I have been that 30-year old in the tech field who values his flex time, and has worked with local teams, distributed teams, and mixed local/distributed teams. You get a LOT more done, when you’re in the same room. This is why I work from home only rarely – usually, on bad snow days where the commute time is just stupid long. Of course, I don’t need flex time as much as others do, since my wife was a SAHM and now works part-time while going to school.

    Which brings me to education. SayWhaat, if you can support yourself, you’ve got a good job. I’m not sure why everyone thinks they have to maximize their earnings… for what? I’m definitely a work-to-live kind of person. My wife has a bachelors, but took off for a long time, and is going back to school for more now. She probably couldn’t support our 3 kids by herself, but she could be independent enough to support herself. The whole idea that unless you max out your career you’re not independent seems crazy to me.

    Also, online dating is fine. It’s just online dating websites geared to that, are lame. There’s so many other niche social networking sites. Use those instead.

    As long as you aren’t OPPOSED to marriage until arbitrary X (date or money or accomplishment), you’ll be fine. And I don’t get that sense.

  • Tomato

    Hope, that’s because our society has tied being a man with being a provider. Men openly state that they would never date a woman who made more than them because it would make them less of a man. So men wear themselves out in careers they hate so they can be the man. Men shun being a househusband or raising children because those are things women do, and by performing those roles it would make them less of a man. So men leave most or all the tasks of child rearing to their wives, and then wonder why they didn’t get equal custody after the divorce.

    This kind of thinking is bad for everyone.

  • Brendan

    Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?

    That’s the obvious solution. It’s doubtful that it will be widely adopted by the most ambitious women, who are the ones it would benefit the most, because these are not men that these women generally respect very much, and are therefore not very attracted to them as mates. It’s not so much financial hypergamy (although there is that — relatively few women really relish the idea financially supporting a husband as Plan A), but rather more generic “I want to respect and look up to him” hypergamy which tends to get in the way of this when you are looking at highly educated women — which, again, is what we’re talking about when we’re talking about people trying to reach the top 1% of a given career.

    There are exceptions, but they are exceptional. In my 20+ years of law practice, in different cities and in different contexts (law firms and in house) I have known a handful of women lawyers who were married to men who were househusbands. The cases where it has worked have involved either (1) men who were superbly good looking — easy 8.5-9+ on the male looks scale — and had something else interesting going on (i.e.. successful creatives, successful athletes/trainers, etc.) which allowed them more flexibility and there was still outside help regarding the kids or (2) men who had lines of work which they could do well from home — either owning their own business or something similar — and in all cases women who wanted such situations because it suited their feminist personae (i.e., the women involved are, by and large on any scale, very, very dominant women, let’s just leave it at that). So, it *can* work, certainly — it just isn’t a common formula, likely because there are relatively few women who *want* that situation.

    Note I’m not talking about nurses or teachers who are married to contractors or cops. That’s nothing new. It’s about the upper middle class highly educated group that is gunning for the corner office.

  • Jackie

    @Escoffier

    Esco, I think you missed the entire point of my post (and, I note, ignored my direct questions for the 4th time now): Congruity.

    I.e. When you teach your daughter to avoid similar situations, will you be honest with your role in the situation? If you see her falling for a guy who behaved “just like Dad” will you tell her the truth about your past?

    This really bugs me, just like when Lokland said he will lie to his future children if any of them ask him about certain past behaviors.

    Esco, the reason I am not threatened (or ever that perturbed, though quite saddened) by the experiences of others is because my parents were congruent. Actually, they never preached, only practiced ethical behavior, then told us our options.

    You’re never going to be forthcoming about my direct questions, NBD.

    But for someone in the intelligentsia who specializes in ethics and philosophy… it seems strange that you are concerned more with preaching of virtue rather than the practice of virtuousness itself.

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, if I’ve avoided certain topics it’s because I fear that my speaking bluntly will offend you (not that I really care much about that, per se, but I do care about what affect my offending you might have on Susan, whom I don’t want to antagonize).

    If you want to discuss an issue–any issue–you need to be able to seperate the issue itself from the all the baggage you insist on bringing to it. Your insistence that the life history of the person stating X is inextricably bound to the truth or faslehood of X is … well, it’s not true, that’s the nicest way I can say it.

  • Jackie

    Also, Escoffier

    “At the time, no one around me–not anyone I knew personally, not anyone in the whole culture who had my ear–would say that anything whatever was wrong with our relationship. ”

    You have alluded to (but never directly responded to questions regarding) being part of the extreme Right-Wing. Doesn’t that involve personal responsibility at a very high level? How, then, can you abdicate your responsibility in face of “the culture”?

    Besides that, you have also alluded to being a Christian, which only has *one* standard of sexual morality for both men and women, in addition to being called to practice ethics that directly oppose so much of this world. So it confuses me that you are not accepting your role in all this, or acknowledging your own accountability.

    (I don’t know if you are like others I’ve known, who believe they will lose respect by admitting fault or weakness. But when my parents told me of their struggles, weaknesses and difficulties it only made me trust and respect them MORE. Not less.)

    Like I said, I’m not expecting an answer. But to me, I view your posts as incongruent, even on your self-appraisals which tend to be self-deprecating. And that’s too bad, because I (along with everybody else) could learn a lot from you, if I felt like I could trust in your congruence. Peace–

  • SayWhaat

    The whole idea that unless you max out your career you’re not independent seems crazy to me.

    That wasn’t my concern. I already live well within my means, and I’m building a tidy nest egg to boot.

    My concern is being able to provide for my future family. I have no idea what my husband’s career or income will be like, and until I meet him, I have to factor in all the possibilities and shoulder that burden alone. Being a woman, I have even less time to establish myself.

    That is the crux of the worry.

  • Jackie

    Esco, I know my intellect can be quashed like ant by you. :)

    That’s not what I’m talking about: I’m not interested in deconstructing arguments, I just want to trust you practice what you preach.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Escoffier, I don’t think I will ever make you able to understand my POV, and I will have to make peace with that.

    This isn’t related to you, per se, but can you see how people like OTC and me have been damaged, spiritually, by what you consider the “baggage” of the personal integrity of those pronouncing strictures and issuing moral judgments? That is where we are at the impasse.

    Maybe your kids are philosophically brilliant and none of these issues will arise. But if your daughter is anything like me (doubtful I know :) ), she will revere your personal integrity above all things and it will guide her moral decisions more than anything else. Again, peace and no need to follow up–

  • OffTheCuff

    SayWhaat, i know you are, it’s your family that seems to be pressuring you to max out.

    But I don’t see why you’re worried about building a mega-career enough to support a family on one income. The whole point of marriage is to share expenses! If you’re married, and one is out of work, then the other person can rear the kids, and thats the biggest expense right there. Lets say i lost my job, and my wife worked – we could float along with her working full time and me watching the kids, for a few years with our emergency funds, with very little lifestyle change. She might earn 1/3 of what I do, but there’s a lot of stuff we could cut.

    Maxing out your career in the name of children is silly, provided that you plan to stay married.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “This really bugs me, just like when Lokland said he will lie to his future children if any of them ask him about certain past behaviours.”

    Da hell did I do to get dragged into this?

    If we feel like randomly throwing out stuff we don’t like.

    The born again virgin thing (which is what I think you said you are doing) or the waiting for marriage despite past behaviour is rather morally bankrupt imo.

    Beyond that, if lying to ones children to make them happier is immoral. so be it. I will be the most immoral ans pentacle drawing prick this world has ever seen if thats the reward.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      The born again virgin thing (which is what I think you said you are doing) or the waiting for marriage despite past behaviour is rather morally bankrupt imo.

      Perish the thought! Jackie is the real deal and she has paid for her beliefs.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    But why is it important that one practice what one preaches?

    I believe it comes down to cases where one doesn’t know if what someone else is saying is true or worth following and so you look for other clues that lend a bit of credibility. “I don’t know if that’s a good thing, or this is a hard thing being asked of me, but he’s doing it and seems happy and sincere so I guess I’ll do it too.”

    Logically, of course, a person can say truth x and live in manner not-x and x is still true, but at a human level many people have this desire to see congruency in practicing and preaching and in a setting where you have to decide to believe and follow or not this would have life and death consequences.

    This is especially applicable to cases where a leader figure is requiring great sacrifices and so you want to know that the cause is sincere and that that leader isn’t laughing his ass off behind your back and mocking all the dubes that are giving him money and sacrificing, doing what he said, while he’s doing the complete opposite.

    But, I’m curious, Jackie, why are you so concerned about Escoffier being congruous? And how, specifically, is he not being congruous? Is it the fact that he had premarital sex and doesn’t sound to be particularly repentant about it while promoting a return to highly-restricted sex-only-in-marriage values?

    Anyway, I don’t have a bone in this “fight” but just curious. Cheers.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland

    I think Jackie is just doing the “old-fashioned”, actual virgin thing and waiting for marriage, not the re-virgin thing.

  • Joe

    @blogrot

    You could drop a friendly comment to the guy shopping next to you in the dog&cat food aisle at Target (as happened to me) or the guy working the garden center at Home Depot on the weekends.

    You’re so right.

    A short anecdote; a few years ago, I went a campaign to lose weight (and I did, too – about 40 lbs, and since I’m a small guy, that was not an insignificant amount). Besides the standard diet recommendations, I did this by doing as much walking as I could. I’d even walk around the office building a couple of times a day).

    Eventually, people who knew me noticed that I was losing weight and commented, so I had brief conversations. Then I started greeting almost everyone I met in the halls, whether I knew them or not, with a “hi” or just a nod – anything to acknowledge their existence. Much to my surprise, they started acknowledging mine. Even the young, good looking women.

    Out of habit, I started “acknowledging” people outside the office too, at Church, at the supermarket, on the street as I passed (even when I started running – a wave was sufficient). The feedback that I got was something just short of amazing. I have no doubt that if I had done that when I was in my 20s and/or single, I would not have needed a bar to meet women.

    I understand that just greeting random people in the street – or even just making eye contact – sounds weird at first, and maybe even dangerous to some women in particular, and there places where you wouldn’t want to do that. But in general, it’s not. The briefest hint of recognition that your facing another human being is something pretty rare in an era where everyone is wearing ear buds. The results will surprise you, especially if you succeed in making it a habit.

    Want to meet someone? Show them you know they exist.

  • Bully

    I just saw this on the front page of Reddit (for which the poster was given Gold.) I thought it was relevant and would like to share.

    —–

    I’m not past child-bearing age (but if I wanted kids, it would be getting urgent).

    But let me offer a sightly different perspective. Life offers choices and some choices rule out other choices. There will always be things your regret. I regret not having had the discipline to learn piano as a child, I regret not having spent more time with my grandmother when she was alive and mentally sound, I regret that I didn’t manage to get the career I wanted.

    The question is, is my life worse off for it? And what would have been the things you’d regret if you had achieved those things?

    Had I been a child piano wonder, I might have regretted all the time I didn’t spend playing outside. Had I spent more time with my grandmother, I’d have neglected other loved ones and missed out on some wonderful holidays. If I’d were a career woman I’d might regret my lack of time to pursue hobbies and volunteer work.

    For some people it’s a clear-cut choice, for other people it’s more like a 60/40 sort of thing.

    No one here can promise you you’ll never regret not having kids – but that doesn’t mean having kids is the right choice for you. Alternatively, those who do have kids – even though they might not admit it – will regret not having nights out or free time.

    In our society, there’s this ideal that we should be able to achieve anything and everything we want – but that’s a lie. Regret is a natural part of the human condition.

    In the end, you need to make your decisions based on what you want and need in the now – not what you might regret 20 years in the future. Because either way, that future will be different than you imagine it.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    LL, the discussion is about practicing what you preach.

    Earlier, I asked you what you would tell your future daughters about being in a “semi-open” relationship. If they fell for a guy who wanted to do that to them, and asked you about your prior behavior, you said you would lie to them. You said you would tell them the truth about everything else, and you could be extremely convincing if you had to lie in this instance.

    Personally, I have a different viewpoint. Like you consider my reserving sex for marriage (I am not a “born again” virgin) to be “morally bankrupt.” I shall just have to continue to live without your approval in this matter. :)

  • Lokland

    @HS

    I remember a very specific comment directed at me that makes me certain that is not the case.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    Also, I think it is important for one to practice what they preach for their own good. I wasn’t trying to say that people should make a habit of going around preaching a lot of stuff they don’t practice.

    However, that is different from engaging in conversations where you point out the consequences of certain actions even if you yourself may be engaging in them.

    It’s like a smoker saying that smoking will increase your chances of lung cancer. Should the smoker not say that? I think they should and they can give their experience of what it’s like and as they get older share the likely negative outcomes they experience. OTOH, if the smoker tells his son he doesn’t smoke and that the son is evil for smoking and then sneaks out back to take a smoke and then sneaks in to take a shower and go nuts with the mouth wash then that would be hypocritical and wrong, IMO. Those are two different cases.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    “Beyond that, if lying to ones children to make them happier is immoral. so be it. I will be the most immoral ans pentacle drawing prick this world has ever seen if thats the reward.”
    ==
    LL, would this, then, lead to happiness:

    LL: Don’t do that, I never did that. (Even though I really did)

    Descendant of LL: Okay. (I’ll just do it behind your back and lie to you about it later.)
    ==

  • HanSolo

    And I think the smoking parent would be well-advised to encourage his son not to smoke. Now denying he himself smokes while telling the son not to is wrong and likely ineffective, especially if he gets found out.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    “The born again virgin thing (which is what I think you said you are doing) or the waiting for marriage despite past behaviour is rather morally bankrupt imo.”

    “I remember a very specific comment directed at me that makes me certain that is not the case.”
    ==
    LL, what comment are you talking about? I am really confused by this: I am not Evangelical, I am not a “born again” anything.

  • HanSolo

    @Joe 143

    Great comment, for both men and women to acknowledge that other people exist, to get out of our self-induced bubbles. Let’s bring back some humanity to life.

  • Jackie

    @Han Solo

    I guess I have such strong feelings about this because I would be shattered if my parents had done this to me.

    I felt like I could tell my Mom anything, while I still had her, and I felt like living up to my Dad’s integrity is something that is the hardest work for me. If the rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I would feel manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.

    I have had such a hard time this entire year with seeing religious people in power do such damaging things from this mindset. This has caused a lot of anguish, actually. It’s taken a long time to get to a place where I am more balanced and healthier.

    So, Lokland and Esco, I apologize if I came down too hard on you. Can you see this is not really about you per se, as it is about a mindset that has caused me and some people I love huge damage? I probably should not have said anything in retrospect.
    ===
    Susan, this has been super-OT, I’m sorry and I totally understand if you’d prefer to delete this discussion. :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      No worries. I think your point is valid, at the very least it’s something that every parent needs to think about. I confess I was surprised to read Esco’s description of his gf’s orgasms b/c I had the clear impression he did not engage in premarital sex. I understood his point to be that the sex bonded her to him in a way that was very hard for her to shake off when they broke up, and for that reason premarital sex is wrong.
      As you know, I do not share that view, but I allow for different experiences among people.

      The question of what to tell kids when they ask about your own history is a difficult one. I think most experts suggest not being honest with kids if one has done drugs – apparently, this makes kids feel more open to experimenting with drugs, figuring everything will still turn out fine in the end.

      I chose to be honest with my daughter in particular about my sexual history. I remain convinced that was the right decision – it opened up a level of honest dialog that would not otherwise have been possible. I was able to describe the pitfalls of my decisions, but also some of the benefits. I’m pretty sure that her father and I would never have gotten together without sex. :-/

      If a parent does choose to withhold information, I feel strongly that they should do so without being judgmental, keeping in mind they fell prey to the same temptations in their youth.

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, your point seems to be, if anyone who inveighs against X, has at any point themselves done X, then his argument may be safely ignored.

    Leaving aside that this position is anti-Christian, it is also illogical. Truth is seperable from history. If someone said “murder is wrong” and you later found out that he had committed murder, would you think murder is right? No doubt you would not, but likely you would also say, “I would prefer to take moral advice from someone whose concience and record are perfectly clean.” In that case, I wish you well in finding such a one.

    Beyond this you are of course free to ignore anything I say, on any ground you like, just as you have (repeatedly) ignored the several confessions I have already made. You may wish to hear more, but I will reveal more–or not–as the discussion warrants and as the spirit moves me.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    Your also not a virgin either, correct?
    But you advertising the truth to prospects? Or letting it be a don’t adk don’t tell scenario?

    ———-

    Stop being intentionally dense.

    Lok: Don’t jump off a bridge.
    Kid: Jumps off bridge.

    If the kid won’t listen to me anyway it doesn’t matter what I tell them they will be in for a life of pain unless I specifically guide them towards pain.

    Which is of course, not what I think you want to suggest.

    Realistic scenario:

    Lok: Sex will be better within the confines of a relationship. (to both)
    Kid: Has a relationship with someone whom they experience mutually love and caring.

    If they want to cause themselves pain thats beyond my control. I can’t follow them and pull cigarettes out of their mouth because in the will find a way to do so. Only provide my guidance, opinions and experience to help them achieve what they want (which will be largely be influenced by me and my wife, as are most parent child relationships).

  • Lokland

    “If the rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I would feel manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.”

    may I humbly suggest that your a human being who is capable of adapting to different circumstances.

    It would be the end of the world is always an overstatement unless its your kid.

  • Lokland

    “I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,” but the reality is that a lot of girls have a terrible experience with Alpha, never try it again, and are all too happy to partner with someone more LTR worthy in the future.”

    Ahh, the glory of second place…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ahh, the glory of second place…

      See what I mean? Even if she does not value the experience with the cad, you assume he is still her “winner.”

      Here’s an analogy:

      I love Ethiopian food. I found a hole in the wall serving it and went there for dinner. Afterwards I became violently ill with food poisoning and later learned that the restaurant had been issued several violations from the Health Department. It was a couple of years before I could even consider eating Ethiopian food again, but then a clean and well-appointed restaurant with an excellent reputation opened. I looked forward to having a delicious meal without worrying about quality control.

      When I arrived for dinner, the owner asked if I had ever eaten Ethiopian food before. I said that I had, but not in a while. He asked why and I explained that I had had an unfortunate experience. When he learned that I had patronized the filthy, now-closed restaurant, he told me that I was not fit to eat at his place, that I was forever sullied by that bacteria-ridden environment and disgusting food.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Bully, new mom here. I don’t regret not going out, because I never went out much anyway. I don’t regret less free time, because I was wasting most of that time before our baby arrived. I don’t regret any of the work involved, because I love our baby boy so much.

    I agree that people should make their own choices for themselves, but the woman you quoted is just one person. She can speak for her own regrets, but she does not speak for my regrets.

  • Escoffier

    Susan,

    I know we have many examples of players, or at least guys going through an “I’m not ready to settle down” phase, say that they don’t want virigns.

    Do we have evidence of “good guys” looking for a “good girl” to potentially marry deliberately ruling out virgins specifically because of their virginity?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do we have evidence of “good guys” looking for a “good girl” to potentially marry deliberately ruling out virgins specifically because of their virginity?

      Well I personally know lots of “good guys” who are with “good girls,” but not so good as N=0. Nor are the good guys at N=0.

      What’s happened, for better or worse, is that virgins have become extreme outliers.

      How Many People Over 25 Are Still Virgins?

      The CDC also reports that by age 19, 80% of men and 75% of women have lost their virginity.

      High school’s a prime setting for men to lose their virginity: the odds a man who has engaged in sexual activity had his first experience between the ages of 16 and 17 are 1 in 3.7. The odds the first time took place between 18 and 19 are lower, 1 in 4.35, and drop to 1 in 5.88 for those who waited until age 20 or older. And the odds a man aged 25-44 has had no female partners are 1 in 35.71.

      More women than men are likely to postpone losing their virginity, but during the teens and early 20s their odds follow the identical trajectory. However, by the time a woman enters the age range of 25-44, the odds she has had no male sexual partners are 1 in 58.82—so somewhere along the line women start outpacing men in shedding their virginity.

      The only way to increase the number of virgins at marriage is for people to marry very young, and that will not be happening.

  • Tomato

    OtC, it’s the worst-case scenarios that keep people up at night. What if the husband dies? Or is so severely disabled that he cannot work? What if his job is outsourced and the remaining options can’t pay the bills? Or if the husband/wife/kids require medical care with bills that are insurmountable? What about divorce in cases of adultery, abuse, addiction, or neglect?

    One does not need to max out their career, but it can be very difficult figuring out what point is “good enough” to keep things comfortably afloat if needed.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OTC, SayWhaat is NYC I think. Things are crazy there.

    My husband and I would both have to make 3-5x what we currently make to even have a lifestyle close to what we have in Utah. Even then, a big house in a good neighborhood at 28? Daycare and private school for two kids? Leftover money to savings? Forget about it.

    IMO, move out of the big coastal cities and into suburbs if what you want is family and kids.

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat, i know you are, it’s your family that seems to be pressuring you to max out.

    But I don’t see why you’re worried about building a mega-career enough to support a family on one income.

    Right, I get that… I suppose that’s just me caving to familial expectations again.

    FWIW, I see where they’re coming from. They want me to have a higher quality life than what they gave me. They saw the Dr. Ghandis across the street pay off their mortgage in 2 years and just accrue wealth, they see their children land jobs that pay more handsomely than mine does now, they see other kids who (in their opinion) were less intelligent and are now surpassing me in career prestige.

    Basically, they’re worried about my future, and they want me to have a promising future so that other Indians won’t look down on me. They won’t say it, but there’s a great deal of status in the community involved. My mom keeps telling me to marry a doctor so that she’ll know that I’ll be taken care of.

    Ugh. I have no use for such politics, but I have a strong desire to not shame my family, either. I think this may be a difficult concept for Westerners to understand. :/

  • Lokland

    “LL, what comment are you talking about? I am really confused by this: I am not Evangelical, I am not a “born again” anything.”

    I believe it was along the lines of ‘I’ve had too many penises in me to be acceptable for an LTR’

    or some such nonsense

    when discussing what N disqualifies a women from LTR territory. (I cannot recall the comment I made that spurred this.)

    ——

    I tend to forget that religious people differentiate themselves with labels that have no real effect on behaviour or outcomes.

    Born again virgin is the evangelical way of saying I’m not a virgin and now intend to marry a man from the church who expects a virgin.

    Perhaps the difference is one of honesty.

    I don’t know.

  • Escoffier

    SayWhaat, I don’t think the medical profession going forward is going to be quite as renumerative as it used to be, so your mother’s advice is a bit out of date.

  • Jackie

    @LL
    “Your also not a virgin either, correct?
    But you advertising the truth to prospects? Or letting it be a don’t adk don’t tell scenario?

    ———-
    Dude, I know the discussions get busy around here. But that part about waiting for marriage is true. If I had N, I would say it.

    The only time I mention it (when my ex-fiance was cheating on me– the guys who have dumped me due to V-card– once I even had a roofie attempt in college :( ) are about how much of a weirdo outlier, even as a religious person, it makes you to save sex for marriage.

    Earlier, I actually believed in NOT advertising it. My position that it is between me, my future husband and, possibly, my doctor if it came up. The majority view around disagreed.

    Anyway, that’s where I’m at. Peace–

  • Lokland

    “What if the husband dies? Or is so severely disabled that he cannot work? What if his job is outsourced and the remaining options can’t pay the bills? Or if the husband/wife/kids require medical care with bills that are insurmountable? What about divorce in cases of adultery, abuse, addiction, or neglect?”

    As a general rule. People move on.
    Dead- seems obvious
    Disabled- most cases I know of (anecdotal) have ended with the abled spouse leaving
    Job loss- empathy then divorce if he can’t fix it
    Medical bills- no experience
    Adultery, abuse, addiction- they tend to stick around and try and fix him or get a divorce (say 50-50 split)

  • Jackie

    @LL

    “I believe it was along the lines of ‘I’ve had too many penises in me to be acceptable for an LTR’

    or some such nonsense

    when discussing what N disqualifies a women from LTR territory. (I cannot recall the comment I made that spurred this.)

    ——
    LL, this really does not sound like a comment I’ve made. Is it possible that it is a hypothetical discussion of someone else?

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t intend to raise a family in NYC. No way in hell.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    You are a virgin?
    I very specifically remember that comment (because of the pure bluntness of it) and I thought it was you.

    If not, I stand corrected.

  • SayWhaat

    Do we have evidence of “good guys” looking for a “good girl” to potentially marry deliberately ruling out virgins specifically because of their virginity?

    Susan posted stats that a full third of men would not date a virgin. The percentage is not as significant as the % change.

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat, I don’t think the medical profession going forward is going to be quite as renumerative as it used to be, so your mother’s advice is a bit out of date.

    Doesn’t matter. Still doctor.

  • SayWhaat

    One does not need to max out their career, but it can be very difficult figuring out what point is “good enough” to keep things comfortably afloat if needed.

    This.

  • HanSolo

    @Escoffier

    Back when I was a virgin (for many years, I might add), I wanted to marry a virgin. Once I was no longer a virgin, and you might even say a player, I didn’t hold a woman’s virginity against her.

    There was one case where a virgin told me she wanted to have sex with me and I wanted to too but I didn’t do it because I could tell she liked me a lot, to the level of wanting to LTR/marry me and I liked her but not to that level. I told her I wanted her first time to be with someone special because she was more of the wait til marriage mindset, though she was obviously willing to not be that way with me.

    I think most guys looking for marriage would not hold it against a woman for being a virgin. I can see some being a little turned off if they think she might not be so skilled in bed but as long as they really like/love her that won’t be a deal breaker. And for many men it would be a plus. I guess there might be some wild men that really want to get into swinging or something that would assume the virgin wouldn’t want to do wild stuff and so that might be a turn-off but those people likely wouldn’t be good matches anyway.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Esco, I only have a sec, but wanted to let you know that I read your comment. Maybe I am “illogical” and “anti-Christian” in my feelings, but can you understand the source behind them?

    Look at how virulently many male posters get about women’s N, those who are less than pure– Can you say you have extended them the same grace you wish for yourself, before you accuse me of anti-Christian behavior?

    I missed your confession threads; I really thought you were ignoring my questions and had never responded to anything regarding your own accountability. I really appreciate that, Esco. :)

    We will probably never see eye-to-eye on most things, but I appreciate hearing from you. Thanks–

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My mother (who had six children) used to say “If we had waited until we could afford you kids, we wouldn’t have had any of you!” He smile let us know that what she meant was that money wasn’t the primary reason for starting a family.

    I know a couple of men that wanted to wait till “their economy improved” to have children. Then they had it late around 40 and still poor. Most people keep themselves in the same economical realm more or less they started with, IME. Few people go from paupers to millionaires. So waiting to be making a lot of money might end up with spending that money on IV treatment or a very expensive adoption process, YMMV.

    It’s like a smoker saying that smoking will increase your chances of lung cancer. Should the smoker not say that? I think they should and they can give their experience of what it’s like and as they get older share the likely negative outcomes they experience
    Well if he has a cigar in his mouth while telling this I would say the message is a bit lost. But then again who knows I remember Susan Sarandon doing an ‘abortion is a human right’ speech while heavily pregnant so what do I know ;)

    I have had such a hard time this entire year with seeing religious people in power do such damaging things from this mindset. This has caused a lot of anguish, actually. It’s taken a long time to get to a place where I am more balanced and healthier.
    Might I suggest to follow the doctrine and not the people that taught it to you? I know everyone has a different source of faith but remember Jeremiah 17:5
    “Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
    who draws strength from mere flesh
    and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”

    The Lord is the only one to trust and follow your Mentors try their best but they are not God or perfect and some of them will fall and sin. If it happened in the past or the present don’t let them drag you away from the Lord with them or because of them, YMMV.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    And, Esco, I have had a *ton* of “good” guys DQ me when I wouldn’t sleep with them. One of them a practicing Christian, whose brother was a pastor.

    Basically, my pond is super small and need mad-tight girl game to triumph. But I have faith (and HUS). :)

  • HanSolo

    @Esc

    I would not rule out a woman for marriage based on her being a virgin.

  • Escoffier

    SW,

    Still leaves some granularity. I mean, pretty much any guy not looking for a wife would probably not date a virgin. Also, the older a guy is, the less likely he will be to want to date a virgin.

    What I am wondering is whether there are any younger guys who would rule out a virgin not for a fling or a ONS but for a relationship that might lead to marriage?

    Keep in mind, it’s not like just because she’s a virgin doesn’t mean she will remain one until the altar. She probably won’t put out by date three but he still might see some action before the wedding.

    Or are guys conditioned to think that any girl past a certain age who is still a virgin is somehow “crazy”? If so, in the vast majority of cases, that is the culture overriding his innate desires.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What I am wondering is whether there are any younger guys who would rule out a virgin not for a fling or a ONS but for a relationship that might lead to marriage?

      Keep in mind, it’s not like just because she’s a virgin doesn’t mean she will remain one until the altar. She probably won’t put out by date three but he still might see some action before the wedding.

      I think that a male virgin would certainly prefer a female virgin. I suspect that most of the “college marrieds” who join at the hip during Freshman Orientation meet this description, though they mostly all go on to have sex, I imagine.

      And very few of them will marry – I believe Megaman posted a stat that only 13% of marriages are between college sweethearts.

  • Jackie

    @LL (171)

    Yes, I am.
    No, that comment is *definitely* not me.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    My bad, a thousand pardons.

  • SayWhaat

    Or are guys conditioned to think that any girl past a certain age who is still a virgin is somehow “crazy”? If so, in the vast majority of cases, that is the culture overriding his innate desires.

    Ya think?

    Jackie and I have both produced examples from our lives. Anecdotal, sure, but if she’s having this much trouble in a religious community, what do you think is happening in the larger society?

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    I felt like living up to my Dad’s integrity is something that is the hardest work for me. If the rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I would feel manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.

    I felt like that but replace ‘dad’ with ‘church’. My whole world view and spiritual world view was shattered:

    I felt like living up to my [church’s standards was] something that [was] the hardest work for me. [The] rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I [felt] manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.

  • SayWhaat

    I suppose I should be grateful for my mother’s consistent message that my life sans an M.D. would be doomed. :P

  • Escoffier

    What I mean is, I believe that men by nature (which is to say, most men most of the time) are innately jealous not just about their mate’s sexual present and future but about their past as well. Hence, to convince men that virginity is *bad* has required a heroic effort of brainwashing.

    I know from my own youth that the message out there was strongly pushed on us that we should “not care about the past.” Anyone who does is “insecure,” etc. And yet it didn’t work on me or anyone I knew. I later came to conclude that the instinct was so powerful it simply cut through and overrode all the propaganda.

    I guess now, decades later, the message has finally succeeded and men choose the propaganda freely, over and agaisnt their own innate desires.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    The fact that the smoker smokes doesn’t make his message false that it’s bad for your health. That’s my point. People can say the truth whether they themselves are following it or not.

    Now, in the absence of 100% truth or wisdom on the part of the listener/follower then the congruity of the actions of the messenger with the message will influence the likelihood of the listener following.

  • SayWhaat

    Hence, to convince men that virginity is *bad* has required a heroic effort of brainwashing.

    Welcome to America. Here’s your hamburger.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    As a general rule. People move on.
    In different ways but essentially yes

    @SayWhaat
    As a general rule people don’t know how they are going to act in emergency situations and don’t know how the environment will be either.
    You might have an idea that your husband will lose his job and you will sustain the family. But your husband might become someone else due to the job loss and the tension can bring out many other issues that you might not be able to save with all the money in the world and then some. So this “I need to be prepared for everything” has a tipping point and a natural barrier.
    I will say save at least 10% of your income, don’t become a status whore (meaning don’t think your life is over because you couldn’t change your car yearly like Dr Ditzy Jones did) and learn to enjoy your luxuries but not to tie your happiness to them so if you need to cut expenses it won’t be as hard and learn as many skills are you are passionate about. If you have skills that can help you set a plan B or a secondary or tertiary source of income (Etsy, E-bay, some gigs on the side) chances are you are going to be prepared for anything life throws at you, YMMV.

    Keep in mind, it’s not like just because she’s a virgin doesn’t mean she will remain one until the altar. She probably won’t put out by date three but he still might see some action before the wedding.
    Or are guys conditioned to think that any girl past a certain age who is still a virgin is somehow “crazy”? If so, in the vast majority of cases, that is the culture overriding his innate desires.

    Is funny back in my day virginity had a lot of taboos (like certain things you couldn’t do because your hymen was there) modern world dismissed lots of them and created new ones. There is all sorts of negative assumptions about it that is hard for anyone to keep it and for the ones that might be considering dating a girl to get over it.
    The media is probably the best measure when was the last time a virgin was depicted in a positive light? I don’t remember any ‘critically acclaimed’ work of fiction that has tried to show virginity as a reasonable choice at the top of my head. I might be wrong.

  • Bells

    Personally, I am definitely not waiting for marriage to have sex. However, I do prefer to have sex within the context of a healthy relationship. Amongst my friends, I am the last of the virgins.

    There is one 25yr old girl who is waiting for marriage because of strong religious beliefs. I say kudos to her. I don’t think have the self-restraint to wait that long!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    There is one 25yr old girl who is waiting for marriage because of strong religious beliefs. I say kudos to her. I don’t think have the self-restraint to wait that long!
    I don’t know how common that is. Most of my waiting till marriage friends had sex with their fiances within months of the wedding, myself included. So the waiting until marriage might be more “waiting until I’m sure you are not going to ran off on me”. Although that is not fool proof either I know at least 2 girls that were left months before the wedding after they done the did. One of them was totally the goal to get her to put out and leave. :(

  • Kiwi

    “Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?”

    “That’s the obvious solution. It’s doubtful that it will be widely adopted by the most ambitious women, who are the ones it would benefit the most, because these are not men that these women generally respect very much, and are therefore not very attracted to them as mates. ”

    I know a good handful of SAHDs but their wives are all firmly middle-class, middle-management types, not over-achievers, CEOs or even high level executives, so you may be right.

  • Escoffier

    Something that is so contra nature can easily be undone, though. Which is why I think the virgins give up too easily.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    SayWhaat, I totally understand what you said, coming from a Chinese family of not one but two medical doctors. But you know what, my parents are miserable people! My father is a rich anesthiologist who will be growing old alone, and my mother is a narcissist who will alienated everyone in her life. I didn’t want to be like them one bit.

    I went to Northwestern which is on par with NYU, and there were expectations of higher success for me. I disappointed my mother by not going to graduate/business/medical school, and I didn’t marry a super wealthy guy like she wanted me to do. However, I won’t be putting up with mistresses like she did before my father divorced her. I may not be as educated as my older cousin who is over 30, has a PhD and lives in Beijing, but I am happy and love my husband and baby.

    BTW, hospitals are NOT fun places.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Ana:

    I appreciate the advice, and I hope that I’m already following it. :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    In my last post, “will alienated” should be “has alienated.”

    SayWhaat, where would you raise kids then? Upstate NY? Actually my father lived there for a while. Still quite expensive I believe. I say go out west. More men, less competition for the men, and get away from your parents. :P

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Jackie, are you still seeing the guy you said you were dating from your church? I haven’t heard much updates from you on your romantic life lately!

  • Kiwi

    “Basically, they’re worried about my future, and they want me to have a promising future so that other Indians won’t look down on me. They won’t say it, but there’s a great deal of status in the community involved. My mom keeps telling me to marry a doctor so that she’ll know that I’ll be taken care of.

    Ugh. I have no use for such politics, but I have a strong desire to not shame my family, either. I think this may be a difficult concept for Westerners to understand. :/”

    But I don’t understand what the problem is. You Indians have the benefit of always being able to opt for arranged (or assisted) marriage via your families’ large national and often international connections.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Jackie,

    You’ll do fine.

  • Tomato

    So women being virgins is good, but men being virgins is bad, which leads me to ask who are these men having sex with??

  • Escoffier

    Susan, if you were genuinely surprise by that, then you must have forgotten all of the earlier conversations we’ve had about my “college marriage.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esco

      Susan, if you were genuinely surprise by that, then you must have forgotten all of the earlier conversations we’ve had about my “college marriage.”

      I figured, based on your opinions, that you must have done “everything but.”

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Oh bloody hell, here comes another N-tanglement …

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Escoffier, I remember those stories. I also remember telling you that you are clearly more of a ladykiller than you give yourself credit for, what with the Grace Kelly lookalike and the girl who was devastated by losing you. Also, winning your pretty wife over all the rest of your fellow grad classmates with a horrible male to female ratio.

    You may want to consider that your daughter will be more likely attracted to a man like you, who is quite high up on the totem pole but does not give off “cad” vibes. He might mean well, but due to not thinking too far ahead, he would accidentally break her heart. It may be better to use cautionary tales with concrete examples than to speak in the abstract.

  • SayWhaat

    Hope, I knew you’d get it. :) I’ve never thought the doctor families in my community were particularly happy, either. There’s this one doctor who actually hates being a doctor and has always dreamed of a classical singing career. My dad told me that because he’s a doctor, no one will tell him that he’s only a slightly-above average singer — as if that was something to look forward to!

    I’m not originally from New York, so I have no qualms about uprooting and heading west. Actually, if my career aspirations work out, I’d pretty much have no choice but to live in L.A. I thought about the possibility of commuting, though that may be wishful thinking. Pasadena is quite lovely, however…

  • Kiwi

    Some people say that previous sexual experience makes a person a better lover for their eventual life long partner. This is assuming that he or she actually learned some skills during his or her previous romps and that those skills are pleasurable to the individual body of the life long partner. No two bodies are exactly alike. Sometimes people with a lot of experience think they know everything and are not willing to learn anything new.

  • Bells

    @Saywhaat,
    I can relate to your point-of-view. My parents also have the same mindset of desiring for their kids to surpass their own current lifestyle.

    Up to a couple of months ago, I was originally shooting to become a doctor. Studied for the MCATs, got my results, and started writing applications to be sent in to different schools. And then I took a detailed closer look on the pros and cons of being a Physician as a woman. One of the major deciding factor supporting my decision against continuing was the fact that I would ideally like to invest more time into my future children rather than bundling that energy into a demanding career.
    I am happy with my decision. And I believe that I have chosen a better career alternative.

    And like Escoffier mentioned, the medical profession isn’t as remunerative as it was in the past. There is a lot of tangled politics occurring at the moment.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope, my parents live on Long Island. Nurse and machinist. People commute to NYC from further out than where they live.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Fun example
    Couple inaccuracies.

    People are not restaurants.
    You can be a rather slutty patron but not a slutty mate.

    Now, lets place those two restaurants right next to each other. With the owner standing outside.

    The one on the left is focused on serving multiple patrons with minimal effort. They make their profit via quantity. The outside is very flashy and eye catching.

    The restaurant on the right has only one table with one chair. They deliver excellent service one-on-one. The building, though nice, is nothing spectacular.

    —————

    You now walk up and look at both restaurants, weigh your options as both owners wait for you to make your decision.

    You choose the restaurant on your left.
    The owner of the restaurant on the right has doesn’t eat that night. Whereas the owner on the left has gained relatively nothing.

    —————

    You have your little fiasco over a couple visits (while the owner on the right continues to starve).

    You return and choose the restaurant on the right.
    At this point, you suspect, that blatantly choosing one over the other will go unnoticed.

    The owner declines you, politely (the fuck has ever heard of a man screaming at a woman for being a slut). You wonder why.

    But in the end, you did cause the man to starve and his restaurant only requires one to be filled. A few more days is nothing compared to spiting the person who did you wrong.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “And very few of them will marry – I believe Megaman posted a stat that only 13% of marriages are between college sweethearts.”

    Actually it was that 13% of people in college are married while they are in college.

  • SayWhaat

    But I don’t understand what the problem is. You Indians have the benefit of always being able to opt for arranged (or assisted) marriage via your families’ large national and often international connections.

    Are you PJ?

  • Lokland

    My point is that being chosen last is never anyones choice.
    And most people have a choice. (That does not imply virginity.)

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I chose to be honest with my daughter in particular about my sexual history. I remain convinced that was the right decision – it opened up a level of honest dialog that would not otherwise have been possible.”

    What? Clearly the correct method is to never talk to your child about sex at all, and form an environment in which they would never dare ask a question about such an embarrassing subject. I’m well on my way to doing this myself, because I have no freaking clue how to do otherwise.

    (That would be sarcasm.)

    It just boggles my mind that people talk to their parents about this stuff. Whatever happened to generational distance and respect? I honestly don’t get it. Your kids are not your friends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      It just boggles my mind that people talk to their parents about this stuff. Whatever happened to generational distance and respect? I honestly don’t get it. Your kids are not your friends.

      You raise a very important point. Your kids are certainly not your friends. When I have shared my history with my kids, it has not been idle gossip or storytelling – every disclosure is a “teachable moment.” What I did, how it unfolded, and what I learned. Kids learn from their own mistakes, obviously – there is great power in natural consequences. But we also learn from the mistakes (and successes) of others.

  • Bells

    @Anacaona,

    Although that is not fool proof either I know at least 2 girls that were left months before the wedding after they done the did. One of them was totally the goal to get her to put out and leave

    That’s terrible! Poor girls. What a horrible way to be introduced into sexual relationships.

  • OffTheCuff

    PS by “I dont understand” I mean precisely that. It’s not an encoded way of saying “that’s wrong”, actually it sounds interesting, but it makes about as much sense to me as water flowing uphill. I’d kind of stare at it, thinking “wha????”

  • SayWhaat

    PS by “I dont understand” I mean precisely that. It’s not an encoded way of saying “that’s wrong”, actually it sounds interesting, but it makes about as much sense to me as water flowing uphill. I’d kind of stare at it, thinking “wha????”

    I’m with you there. I very much want to have an open, frank dialogue with my future kids, but I suspect that I will be highly awkward and uncomfortable when the time comes, haha. :)

  • SayWhaat

    All this talk about virginity, and Cooper is nowhere to be seen! He must be a busy man… :P

  • OffTheCuff

    SW, yep, and what do we do if they never ask? Or if they refuse to talk? Kids are notorious for not doing what you want. The honest, open, frank dialog sounds like Magical Super-Families from Planet Perfectron to me. I have hard enough time trying to get them not to pick their nose at the dinner table.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC, Say Whaat

      SW, yep, and what do we do if they never ask? Or if they refuse to talk? Kids are notorious for not doing what you want. The honest, open, frank dialog sounds like Magical Super-Families from Planet Perfectron to me.

      I can tell you that I had no script or game plan. I was always winging it. Most of the meaningful convos occurred in the car without eye contact (a blessing, makes things easier).

      I never introduced topics – I let my kids do that, and I responded in the moment as honestly as I could. I allowed my kids to know my vulnerabilities, my regrets, but also my joy. Obviously, they felt comfortable with me, knowing I was far from perfect, frequently self-deprecating, and would not judge them harshly.

      From an early age, I taught them values by sharing stories of my own failures – times when I had behaved in a way I regretted or felt ashamed about. They always knew I was a very loving but deeply flawed person.

  • Kiwi

    “It just boggles my mind that people talk to their parents about this stuff. Whatever happened to generational distance and respect? I honestly don’t get it. Your kids are not your friends.”

    I always felt creepy when my parents tried to discuss anything like that.

    Finally I had to explain to my mom everything I knew (read about) which included things she’d never heard of, so she would stop trying to broach the subject and creep me out. But there was no sharing of personal experiences, hers or mine (which I had none being only 13 years old at the time).

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    OTC, yeah I was a bit weirded out that my husband talked about the stuff he talked about with his mom. But they are both INFJ, and before he met me, my husband used his mother as a sounding board and for venting/advice/life talks. I do the same with her now, because she is wise and easy to talk to, unlike my own mother.

    I suspect Susan is somewhat like my MIL in that regard. Easy to talk to and gives non-judgmental but good advice. :)

  • Bells

    @blogRot,

    Thanks for putting the question: “How are we supposed to look without looking?” into concrete examples and explanations about positioning. I needed to hear that.

    I am a bit hesitant to rely on the effectiveness of this technique. Particularly because different sources have stated that men especially fear approaching women, randomly, in the daytime. However I can imagine utilizing this as a secondary, passive currency while actively searching for a partner.

  • Escoffier

    “The only way to increase the number of virgins at marriage is for people to marry very young, and that will not be happening.”

    First, I don’t think it’s the only way, and second, who knows what may happen? When/if society/the economy go splat, one likely response will be far earlier marriages, much less divorce, extended families living together, etc.

  • Jackie

    @Capt. Solo (184)

    Han, I am so sorry to hear that– it is what I always kind of thought may have been your experience. It has been that, too, for my other ex-Mormon and ex-Fundie friends. Very complicated to resolve this stuff.

    You are in my thoughts and I hope you have lots of nice wookies and a Princess or two as companions in your quest. :)

  • Jackie

    @Lokland (182)

    Hey Lokland,
    Your apology is most definitely accepted. :) And I owe you one as well: I shouldn’t have brought up your post. We’ve all got stuff to work out, me especially.

    If anyone has seen the documentary “Mea Maxima Culpa” I think they will understand a little better. Over this time I found out my former priest, who I initiated me into the rites Reconciliation and Communion is one of the abusers who hurt my classmates. :( :( :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I trust you will understand when I say:

      Go Sean!

  • Kiwi

    SayWhaat, if I may, you are still young and have time, but if by say 27 you are not married I would opt for allowing your parents to work some connection magic. I say this because I know a number of Indian women pushing 40 who had planned to be married with kids by their early 30s at the latest but because they would not allow their parents to help, are single today. Single today doesn’t mean they are not dating, oh that they are. One or 2 is even living with a “partner” who refuses to either marry them or give them children. This is not what they had planned for their lives.

    Of course now they are too old and all of the Indian men their own age are married with kids and the only other Indian men who will even look at them are much older divorced or widowered uncle types.

  • Emily

    Virgins have a tough enough time in this SMP, but virgins who are waiting until marriage face a whole other set of challenges.

    Getting involved with a girl who is waiting until marriage would require 2-3 years of celibacy on the part of the guy as well (or however long the typical courtship period is). How many guys would be willing to do that? In fact, how many of the men who are now endorsing this model would have been willing to enter into this type of relationship when they were in their 20s?

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Hey Susan!

    I really appreciate what you have to say and also wanted to say “thanks” for letting me participate, even though I am a weirdo outlier. :mrgreen:

    My mom was like you, in that she talked about things honestly and also started bringing up boys, dating, sex, etc all within the context of “Choices.” She didn’t say one way or the other was best.

    Also, she had never tried to deceive me about things like Tooth Fairy and Santa when I was younger (she didn’t lie, she would ask, What do you think?) so there was trust present.

    I think sex isn’t as important as finding a guy who shared my values. If I could find a fellow religious man who was serious about caring for “the least of us,” seeking God and being his best self, that is my highest value.

  • Abbot

    This is rich

    “We hadn’t accounted for a culture that wasn’t training men for change as well as women”

    The only way to get change is to change (train) men.

    How much more of this dribble is going to bombard the media?

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/opinion/roundup-having-it-all/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

    .

  • Kiwi

    Abbot, what exactly do you find objectionable to that article?

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat, if I may, you are still young and have time, but if by say 27 you are not married I would opt for allowing your parents to work some connection magic.

    I agree.

    Gonna do my damned best to not let things come to that, though. Lol.

  • Kiwi

    “Gonna do my damned best to not let things come to that, though. Lol.”

    I want to share a few examples; one of an Indian woman who refused to date non-Indians, and another who refused to date Indians.

    The first one wanted to date different men in her twenties and choose her own spouse without parental involvement. Nevertheless she would only date other Indians and was convinced this tactic would land her a fantastic Indian husband and family by 30 tops. She found that some Indian men were very picky and would not commit to her for reasons such as her social drinking. Some would not commit to her because of her religion or cultural background, despite her being Indian like them. A few times she came close to official engagement but for one reason or other the men called it off.

    Despite all this she refused to cast her net wider and date non-Indians and she also refused arranged marriage. She is single, childless and pushing 40 today.

    The other took the exact opposite route. She refused to date fellow Indians and would only date non-Indians. Under that circumstance naturally an arranged marriage was out of the question. She is also single, childless and pushing 40 today.

    Different paths, same destination.

    Both women did not cast their nets wide enough and both refused to consider arranged marriage.

  • Ramble

    It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    This is a little like saying, “It isn’t ESPN indoctrinating boys into being physically competitive, it’s their fathers”.

    Of course, it is their fathers who made ESPN so popular to begin with.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That’s terrible! Poor girls. What a horrible way to be introduced into sexual relationships.

    I know that in one case the guy left my friend because she was fired from her job where she made a lot of money and had perks like transportation and fancy meals when they met. Upon leaving her he got involved with a younger and poorer woman probably thinking to hit it and quit it. But she got pregnant ‘accidentally’ and she doesn’t work. He didn’t married her but he had to take economic responsibility for the child due to family pressures. He is of course regretful and wanted to be back with my friend, ‘coincidentally’ she has a good job again now, but obviously is not in the cards for him. I don’t know what happened to the other guy, but is a small country things are bound to come around sooner or later.Karma is really a bitch.

  • Kiwi

    It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    “This is a little like saying, “It isn’t ESPN indoctrinating boys into being physically competitive, it’s their fathers”.

    Of course, it is their fathers who made ESPN so popular to begin with.”

    Parents don’t want to see their daughters throw away their lives early and fast on young men who are just as immature and naive as their daughters are. And then if they get pregnant and the relationship or marriage doesn’t work out, its even worse.

  • HanSolo

    It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    It’s both, feminists directly indoctrinating women and parents, and parents indoctrinating the daughters with a usually watered-down version of feminism. I wonder what these parents would think if they realize that by encouraging the excessive postponement of serious relationships in order to pursue career that they are causing some of their daughters to enter low-probability of marriage or children territory–and in doing so, weeding their very own genes out of the gene pool.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I wonder what these parents would think if they realize that by encouraging the excessive postponement of serious relationships in order to pursue career that they are causing some of their daughters to enter low-probability of marriage or children territory–and in doing so, weeding their very own genes out of the gene pool.

      I’ve wondered this too. Unfortunately, I think many well meaning parents don’t really get it. Even though they became parents in their 20s, they don’t understand that their daughters will not have the same kinds of opportunities ten years older.

      I know so many women who are anxious about single daughters in their mid to late 30s. They don’t stop to think about why their daughters delayed commitment. They would have been thrilled if they found the man of their dreams at 32, but are freaked out if they haven’t found him by 35. It’s a short period of time between “liberated” and “spinster.”

  • HanSolo

    It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    And that is a watered-down version of what most feminists tell women to do.

  • SayWhaat

    Both women did not cast their nets wide enough and both refused to consider arranged marriage.

    Jesus, I already said I’d consider it! What more do you want???

  • Mireille

    Turning 30 this year; unemployed and single.

    Life is great!

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I love Ethiopian food. I found a hole in the wall serving it and went there for dinner. Afterwards I became violently ill with food poisoning and later learned that the restaurant had been issued several violations from the Health Department. It was a couple of years before I could even consider eating Ethiopian food again, but then a clean and well-appointed restaurant with an excellent reputation opened. I looked forward to having a delicious meal without worrying about quality control.

    When I arrived for dinner, the owner asked if I had ever eaten Ethiopian food before. I said that I had, but not in a while. He asked why and I explained that I had had an unfortunate experience. When he learned that I had patronized the filthy, now-closed restaurant, he told me that I was not fit to eat at his place, that I was forever sullied by that bacteria-ridden environment and disgusting food.

    This is a poor analogy for LTRs/marriage, unless you planned on eating exclusively at that Ethiopian restaurant and no other restaurants (i.e. no cheating, and lasting relationship).

  • Major Clanger

    @Ana

    Movie recommendation for you

    “The arrival of Wang”

    Don’t look for reviews! Spoilers would ruin the whole point of the movie…

    Moutahere

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    What’s happened, for better or worse, is that virgins have become extreme outliers.

    Gee thanks. I’m not even in the same box as Cooper now. :(

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Movie recommendation for you

    “The arrival of Wang”

    Don’t look for reviews! Spoilers would ruin the whole point of the movie…

    Moutahere
    I just hope you don’t want to get back at me for “Big Man Japan” ;)
    I will try and find it in Netflix :D

  • INTJ

    @ Emily

    Virgins have a tough enough time in this SMP, but virgins who are waiting until marriage face a whole other set of challenges.

    Getting involved with a girl who is waiting until marriage would require 2-3 years of celibacy on the part of the guy as well (or however long the typical courtship period is). How many guys would be willing to do that? In fact, how many of the men who are now endorsing this model would have been willing to enter into this type of relationship when they were in their 20s?

    I’m not going to wait till marriage for reasons of viability (if you think female virgins have it hard, try male virgins). But I do think it would be the ideal mating system.

    2-3 years for courtship? That sounds way too long. I’d figure on around a year of courtship. And as little as a few months before we will get married and thus can have sex.

  • Abbot

    “Parents don’t want to see their daughters throw away their lives early and fast on young men who are just as immature and naive as their daughters are”

    Then the feminists swoop in like circling buzzards and finish em off. They really have their way with these now wayward daughters, telling them to go forth and mount all manner of penis in the name of “figuring yourself out.”

    .

  • Kiwi

    “It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

    Who has a daughter here? What if the week before her high school graduation she were to announce that her previous plans for college in the fall have been cancelled so she and her boyfriend can move in together and focus on building life together?

    How about if she did go to college but after completing sophmore year she came home and announced that she’d met The One and she is dropping out of college to work full time and support him through his final years in college?

    Any advice?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Gee thanks. I’m not even in the same box as Cooper now.
    Bells and you should have a forum for virgin support or something like it. At least you can talk to each other about how much that suck.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    This idea that parents are pushing women so they don’t marry their high school sweethearts is utter hogwash. Are you absolutely daft?

    SW is telling you specifically that SHE is being shamed, not because she isn’t going to college, but because she might not be a damn doctor. Susan feels shamed, not for finishing college, because by the way she got an MBA and I am sure knows how to use it, but because she isn’t a CEO.

    Hope, apparently, was shamed for not doing something epic-awesome after Northwestern.

    I was shamed for not GOING to Northwestern and choosing economics instead of engineering.

    My GF was shamed because she wanted to be a math teacher, so, so deeply that she ran off to another state at an elite public ivy to add a “Dr.” in front of her name, and now has student loans so gargantuan she makes less than I do after loans and taxes.

    The Upper Middle Class parents do not apply shame to stop you from becoming a total loser.

    They apply shame if you are not epically awesome at life, so incredible that the mere mortals around you bask in the sheer epicness of your awesomeness, which, if only it were not restrained by evil Republicans, would probably achieve world peace and by the way my son has a penis that serves a missile shield. The homing sperm cells zoom in on ICBM warheads and actually go backwards through time and that’s what REALLY caused the USSR to collapse.

    Okay, I am exaggerating a lot, but UMC parents apply a LOT of pressure to “win.”

  • Escoffier

    I was not shamed. Kicked in the butt a few times, but I suppose I deserved it.

  • Bells

    Bells and you should have a forum for virgin support or something like it. At least you can talk to each other about how much that suck.

    Male and female virgins are not in the same category! There are a couple of guy friends that would willingly jump at the chance to have sex with me.
    And I have had plenty of opportunities to loose my virginity, I’m just choosing to be in the right relationship before that can happen.

  • Bells

    Sexual frustration might suck, but I don’t regret having this standard.

  • VD

    America is a “live to work culture” as opposed to a “work to live culture.” I spent some time in Europe when I was in my twenties and was impressed at how, although people had less stuff, they had better, fuller lives.

    I’ve lived in Europe most of my adult life. The biggest difference I’ve noticed is that Europeans simply don’t move. In both the two towns in which I’ve lived, it seems like half the people have the same last name. Seriously, in the former case, 10 of the starting 11 on the local soccer team, plus the manager, all had the same name.

    It was kind of strange, too, how there was a certain “look” to the people from different towns five minutes apart. You could occasionally tell the exact village someone was from the first time you met them simply by their looks.

  • VD

    By the way, excellent post, Susan. Really very well done.

  • Kiwi

    “…and by the way my son has a penis that serves a missile shield. The homing sperm cells zoom in on ICBM warheads and actually go backwards through time and that’s what REALLY caused the USSR to collapse.”

    Was this your inspiration for that?

  • Ramble

    Susan, BTW, that blogger you hate the most (even though you never read him) for being racist has a new post on how women are, well, let me simply copy and paste,

    My impression is that, in general, women are a lot better than men are at this kind of task of noticing, remembering, and applying idiosyncratic traits about individuals.

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/03/women.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I don’t hate Steve Sailer – as you say I haven’t really read him, so I’m not qualified to pass judgment.

      The post you linked to is great – I love the story of how those books are being chosen for people and given away. And it’s to his credit that he accepted that gift and read the books. His neighbor does sound very insightful.

  • SayWhaat

    Okay, I am exaggerating a lot, but UMC parents apply a LOT of pressure to “win.”

    It is one of the defining characteristics of Millennials. You can’t really blame feminism for all of it.

  • Ramble

    Many women get burned by a cad or two, and IMO the sooner the better.

    I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,” …

    It’s true, many self-respecting guys do not want a relationship with a girl who chose to play with fire. It sorta says something about her.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Bells and INTJ:

    You guys are still in college, right? IMO, you’ve got great opportunities right there. Half of the reason I’m even considering grad school is for an MRS degree. :P

    I complained a lot about NYU’s demographics, but the other commenters here are spot-on regarding “positioning”. One of my girlfriends got a boyfriend after he noticed she basically lived in the library. I met a guy at a friend’s party and another in my Economics class. Another girlfriend was rarely without male attention because she was in the business school.

    One of my biggest dating failures was (is) not making myself visible. You both can still capitalize on that while you’re still in college.

  • SayWhaat

    It’s true, many self-respecting guys do not want a relationship with a girl who chose to play with fire. It sorta says something about her.

    Yeah. It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.

  • SayWhaat

    I’m not going to wait till marriage for reasons of viability (if you think female virgins have it hard, try male virgins). But I do think it would be the ideal mating system.

    I don’t. I arrived at that conclusion even before HUS. Even my recent relationship demonstrated that too much can go wrong when there is a big mismatch in sex drive.

  • Kiwi

    “Many women get burned by a cad or two, and IMO the sooner the better.”

    “I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,”

    “It’s true, many self-respecting guys do not want a relationship with a girl who chose to play with fire. It sorta says something about her.”

    “Yeah. It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.”

    What’s the female equivalent of the firey alpha cad that men get burned by and that sorta says something about them?

  • HanSolo

    The decreasing exposure to possible candidates after college and thus extending singleness longer may be another reason why radfems (and less radical ones too) don’t want college adults (I am going to stop referring to them as kids) to think about marriage.

    Keep men and women single as long as possible and the result will be women single longer, meaning they are more likely to work, less likely to have kids and greater economic power.

  • Kiwi

    But UMC women are the most likely to get married, stay married and have more than one kid, right?

  • SayWhaat

    Keep men and women single as long as possible and the result will be women single longer, meaning they are more likely to work, less likely to have kids and greater economic power.

    I honestly don’t think radfems are as devious as this. I think that they’re simply laser-focused on increasing the ranks of women across the board, without regard to the unintended consequences or what other women may actually desire (“what woman wouldn’t want equal pay??”).

  • Abbot

    “what woman wouldn’t want equal pay??”

    Feminists have a sack of sales pitches to hook women into the cult.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG, 252

    +1

    Expectations tend to run a tad high which is of course strange. The average parents wanting their average child to be world leader someday, though admirable are truly delusional (and can be quite damaging).

    I will include my mother in this category.

    My fathers a hard ass and has always been difficult to impress but at least his expectations were sane.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Kiwi #265

    A smoker.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Yeah. It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.”

    Two problems with this statement;

    1. What is the net positive effect on her? her relationship? her boyfriend/husband?

    I see none.

    2. Does this not imply that these women make better mates than those who do not choose to play with fire?
    How much better are they then? There must be a measurable way in which those who chose to play with fire are better wives/mothers than those who do not?

    Again, I do not see it.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    You don’t think radfems are that devious? Then why do they tend to hush down the stats on fertility and marriage likelihood by age?

    I don’t have any evidence that they are consciously doing everything in their power to keep women single and childless (the childless part is the key ingredient for women to achieve high success) but whenever you’re looking for explanations of human behavior then you look at the desired goals and often you can find an explanation for the behaviour–in this case the behaviour is putting out the message to postpone a relationship.

    Radfems desire women to achieve greater career success, women and men are told to put off relationships in order to achieve that (“focus on your studies, focus on your career for now, don’t have relationships yet”). It doesn’t take much for anyone to see the logic and employ it:

    -Radfems want women to achieve economic and other forms of power

    -Children are the biggest obstacle to this so get them to have fewer children later or never at all

    -How? Get women and men to postpone relationships, especially the women in college

    -Since college women are the kinds that can achieve high career success these are the ones that need to be focused on more; and they are more likely to want to have kids only in marriage/LTR so by getting men and women to not even think about LTR/marriage during college then you’re removing one of the biggest times when they have a high frequency of interaction

    -And, just for good measure, let’s F up the boys in elementary and high school so they won’t want to go to college; this serves the dual purpose of creating more openings in college and degree-requiring careers for women and reduces the number of men that have degrees (something many educated women want in a husband) along with reducing the number of men they might interact with in college, reducing the already slim odds of finding a life-partner beyond what the “study and work first, marriage later” indoctrination achieves

  • Bully

    A Definite Beta Guy: And at what cost? What is the point of all this pointless posturing of the UMC towards their children when they’re clearly making them quite miserable?

    Maybe it’s my LMC origins but it seems so very empty to me.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland

    Yeah, those parents sound as delusional as Josie88’s 72 y/o uncle wanting to marry a 20-30 y/o woman! LMAO

  • Abbot

    “There must be a measurable way in which those who chose to play with fire are better wives/mothers than those who do not?”

    Its a failed experiment. Misery abounds among women in this society more than ever. Grandma was plenty wise so lets go with it: she did not need multipenis to “figure herself out” or “grow as a person” hogwash. Generations of women didn’t. Don’t be a victim of the current festering social pathology.

  • HanSolo

    And yes, I think radfems are deviously devilish.

  • OffTheCuff

    PJ, shut up.

  • Abbot
  • Abbot

    Of course, lets never forget the classic

    http://biodork.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/friedman.png

    Hear my bellow!
    .

  • Bells

    @OTC,
    I don’t get it. Who’s the new PJ moniker?

  • HanSolo

    @Bells

    Kiwi

  • Bells

    @Hansolo,

    ahh okay. You guys are good at this. Never saw that one coming

  • Lokland

    @HS

    I disagree with the Radfem evil genius bit. Especially wrt pushing back marriage and no kids.

    There are other places in the world experiencing the same problems.
    But even more so.

    Some of them lack feminism.
    Some of them lack (or have low quantities) or hook up culture or for that matter women who have Ns more than one (or very close too).
    Some of them have but do not use the pill.

    But they all have delayed marriage and less children.

    I don’t think its nearly as much of a problem is people are led to believe but it is an effect that seems independent of feminism.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Lokland:

    *sigh* I don’t want to get into another rabbit hole. I do not believe that there is any implication that girls who learn from their mistakes are better mates than girls who don’t make the same mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, and the consequences for certain errors are more dire than others.

    I think you underestimate the lengths some girls are willing to go in order to find love. We grew up on shiny Disney fairytales and the idea of a soulmate, not realizing that was the adolescent equivalent of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. If she was a girl from a traditional environment, she was probably even more screwed – her parents never told her how to interact with the opposite sex! Even with more secular upbringing, my impression is that there is usually little to no guidance whatsoever. Teenagers are in a biosphere of their own.

    All of that goes for boys too, by the way. I have a lot of empathy for kids who were sheltered their whole lives and then suddenly thrusted into the Real World.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My fathers a hard ass and has always been difficult to impress but at least his expectations were sane.
    That means William is not going to be the first Dominican in space? :(

    PJ, shut up.
    If you don’t mind I will be stealing this line in the future.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Han Solo:

    Every discussion about radfems devolves into this knee-jerk reaction that is very similar to what happens when liberals discuss conservatives, and vice versa. Conservatives are painted as racist, homophobic, gun-toting rednecks (if they aren’t money-grabbing 1%ers), liberals are painted as vegan, Godless hippies, and both sides launch nukes at the others’ strawman.

    Feminists sincerely want to improve the lives of their fellow women. I can hardly fault them for that, just as I can’t fault MRAs for wanting to improve the lives of their fellow men.

    As Lokland stated above, the same issues of delayed childbirth and marriage are occurring in other parts of the world that don’t have a spec of the firepower that feminism holds in the West. For instance, my cousin in India doesn’t want to get married until she’s 27. A generation ago, she would have already had 2 kids with a third on the way! There are all sorts of economic and cultural and biological powers at play – we can’t reduce it all down to one political motivation.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    You guys are still in college, right? IMO, you’ve got great opportunities right there. Half of the reason I’m even considering grad school is for an MRS degree.

    Wait whaat???? And here I was banking on things getting better once people get out of hookup culture.

  • OffTheCuff

    Can’t take credit. I stole it from… Passer_By, was it?

  • Ramble

    It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.

    It says that she is one more cliche who made her “mistake” with an asshat and not with a beta that she will later claim is her ‘true’ desire.

  • Jesse

    Conservatives are painted as racist, homophobic, gun-toting rednecks (if they aren’t money-grabbing 1%ers), liberals are painted as vegan, Godless hippies, and both sides launch nukes at the others’ strawman.

    If only Michael Bloomberg would run on a third-party ticket and save us all from ourselves!

    I smell David Brooks.

  • HanSolo

    Dear SayWhaat, I have never reduced it to one factor, though I may not mention the additional factors in every comment. If you have read my posts I have often said that the underlying factor that is permitting women the power they have today is the advances in technology that have obviated the advantage that physical strength gave men and produced incredible wealth, security, and reproductive freedom. This affects nearly every society on earth, from Iran (with very low birth rates) to Africa to Norway.

    On top of this underlying and almost inexorable trend, culture can amplify or diminish things. Western hyper focus on individualism and materialism increases the shift towards not getting married and having children, in both men and women. Feminism (especially the more extreme strains) also have had an effect on things.

    I will agree that some feminists want to improve the lives of women but disagree in that others don’t–they want women to further their goals of achieving collective overt female power (in education, work, reproduction, politics, etc.). In areas of injustice I support them. In areas where they want to create injustice against men and women who have other worthy goals, I don’t.

  • Jesse

    Personally, I am definitely not waiting for marriage to have sex.

    You should auction your virginity on eBay. If you’re hot you’ll make a killing. ;-)

  • Abbot

    “There are all sorts of economic and cultural and biological powers at play – we can’t reduce it all down to one political motivation.”

    In the West, feminists capitalize on this by injecting other agendas and they do this well since they know women are vulnerable and easy to sway

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    I don’t. I arrived at that conclusion even before HUS. Even my recent relationship demonstrated that too much can go wrong when there is a big mismatch in sex drive.

    Wait so female virgins don’t have an accurate estimate of their own sex drive? Personally, I know that I’d need sex at least a few times a week, but would have trouble having sex more than twice a day over the long run. Thus, my sex drive means I’d want sex pretty much daily.

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland

    Obviously you can only see the effects of feminism where feminism has made sufficient inroads. See my reply to SayWhaat on how I don’t say feminism is the “culprit” for everything, or even the fundamental “culprit.”

  • Ramble

    What’s the female equivalent of the firey alpha cad that men get burned by and that sorta says something about them?

    I am worried our first interaction will be combatitive, but, as I have said many times before, “Our experiences are not analogous.”

    We are different. We have different experiences. Yin and Yang and all that.

  • OffTheCuff

    MRAs are the same as feminists, maybe second wavers. There are no male equivalents to radfems, though. Spend a few minutes on radfemhub and try to find a make equivalent anywhere.

    As for making mistakes, everyone hates a goody. Is the reverse now. Sadly, people these days dont trust people who actually somehow avoid making mistakes. Boring!

    One of my Chrisitian friends who struggles with fidelity even admits to it, she sees that people who screw up as more real and more trustable. She confided in me that she was impressed that I was strong as a kid and adult and able to resist temptation where she couldn’t, and then admitted in the same breath that it’s hard to fully trust and like people like that.

    I think it’s messed up, but fuck it. They’re right in a twisted sort of way.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Ramble…re the iSteve post you linked that said “my impression is that, in general, women are a lot better than men are at this kind of task of noticing, remembering, and applying idiosyncratic traits about individuals”

    …there was an article in today’s WSJ about how having *fairly precise* memories of how people reacted to various situations in the past is very useful in predicting what they’ll do in some prospective future situation. Contrasted with people who only have a vague general remembrance of the person’s past reactions. Haven’t yet read it carefully…it’s on the stack…not sure if there was a breakdown by sex in the studies.

    Generally I think women *enjoy* thinking about individual emotional reactions to particular situations more than men do, which probably means they are usually better about it. On the average, of course.

    Which would surely have an impact on career choice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Generally I think women *enjoy* thinking about individual emotional reactions to particular situations more than men do, which probably means they are usually better about it. On the average, of course.

      Which would surely have an impact on career choice.

      That would explain the abundance of women in the “helping” professions and the relative scarcity of women in technical fields.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bully

    A Definite Beta Guy: And at what cost? What is the point of all this pointless posturing of the UMC towards their children when they’re clearly making them quite miserable?

    Maybe it’s my LMC origins but it seems so very empty to me.

    Social status, which confers access to jobs, mates, etc.

    Notice in the last thread that Susan said a man who is not living a productive life is basically crap and not worthy of love, sex-time, etc. Or at least is unattractive.

    “Productive” is socially constructed. Like “cool.” I don’t like to rag on the guys too much, because I like them, but Jason and Zach are great examples. Neither one probably good for a LTR-prospect, but definitely clear the “ambitious, productive, had girls throwing themselves at them so their N isn’t that bad” filter.
    Of course, Jason, from what I understand, does Pharma Research, which to me is of questionable economic utility given how terrible Pfizer’s pipeline has been and how bloated the healthcare sector is.
    Zach is an ivy league grad that works in Finance, IIRC, so he is basically the definition of Economic Satan.

    But socially constructed, I am sure both of these people do well with women.

    High status. Won the game.

    As for myself, I’m just a low-level A/R accountant, which is basically the LA Clippers of Accounting. It’s dramatically “under-performing” to a lot of my peers. I also got the same crap in college about living at home, although living at home allowed me to save money and, since my parents were paying less on my expenses, they bought a car and allowed me to use it while I was in college.

    But I’m 26, no debt, and have 50 grand in the bank. Very happy with life. Just got off Skype with the GF, she actually said I have far exceeded all expectations, so I can’t be that crappy of a boyfriend, hopefully she’s moving back within the year, so we’ll see how that goes.

    I’m pretty happy with how life has turned out.

    On the other hand, according to this status competition, I am not a winner.

    And some people cannot STAND not being a winner. Or feeling like a loser.

    Note to SayWhaat and Susan about that and Alphas:

    Getting burned by an Alpha, who has been conferred higher status or at least higher masculinity, and now has had that confirmed since you sex him up with your body, is an indicator of sexual inferiority with your current mate.
    Not saying that THAT is the objective truth, but that’s how the guy might feel.
    I think I might prefer N=20 with losers as opposed to N=2 with complete champions that got regular and hot sex easily, and I have to work my ass off to get missionary once a month.
    Very demeaning.
    Love should not be a status game, but you should always endeavor to make your husband or wife feel like a winner.

  • INTJ

    Also, regarding sex drives, there’s this interesting graphic from a recent GMP article: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-i7pFRtEiEI8/ULSaBZU93OI/AAAAAAAAE5U/lEBcaYBo1NM/s1600/Graph.tiff

    All the usual caveats about self-reported surveys apply (sadly, if anything men would be overreporting how frequently they have sex).

    Quite saddening, and doesn’t speak very highly about most relationships, except early marriage. Guess those Mormons are really slutting it up in the young marital bedroom in comparison to everyone else.

  • INTJ

    @ Bells

    I was confused too. Kiwi is a new poster, her name sounds like something PJ would pick, and she didn’t deny being PJ when confronted. So I reckoned she was PJ. But her writing style and praise for arranged marriage definitely don’t match with what I’d expect from PJ.

  • SayWhaat

    @ ADBG, Ramble, et al.

    Like I said, I have no wish to traverse that rabbit hole. I’ve wasted enough time on this site arguing about cock carousels. If that is how you wish to see the world, so be it.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Yeah, the large amount of marrieds with 1/wk or less kind of sucks.

  • OffTheCuff

    Saddening? Married folks have more sex than partnered ones, pretty much across the board. That looks like the Kinsey data.

  • SayWhaat

    @ INTJ:

    Wait whaat???? And here I was banking on things getting better once people get out of hookup culture.

    There are trade-offs. People grow up post-college, but they’re also harder to meet.

    Wait so female virgins don’t have an accurate estimate of their own sex drive?

    Huh? I don’t think I said that. I was keenly aware of mine, lol.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Han Solo:

    In areas of injustice I support them. In areas where they want to create injustice against men and women who have other worthy goals, I don’t.

    K, we cool.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    Also, most of my comments on this thread have implicitly been about Western culture and places where that has spread sufficiently, not about most of the world.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Jesse:

    I smell David Brooks.

    HA! You got me. I’m a fan of his columns. Though I’m not sure if Bloomberg is the answer to everything. :)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ INTJ

    I imagine kids and life get in the way as age sets in. I let the GF know and she agreed that 4x/week is a good amount, and the 2x/week morning quickies don’t count towards that ;)

    @ SW

    I don’t blame you, I’m just letting you know how men perceive the world. We are competitive. Sex is primal urge of competition. We are aware that there is a male status hirearchy, and certain men rank higher. Anything that contributes to an idea in his head that you are valuing another man more highly than him, obviously, is catastrophic.

  • SayWhaat

    There are no male equivalents to radfems, though.

    Belly-laugh of the evening!! :D

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Again, not trying to start a fight, just my way of seeing the world.

    I don’t blame you for not wanting to step into the hornet’s nest ;)

  • SayWhaat

    Anything that contributes to an idea in his head that you are valuing another man more highly than him, obviously, is catastrophic.

    Sure.

    But I can’t control how you perceive the world.

  • SayWhaat

    she didn’t deny being PJ when confronted

    That’s how you know it’s her.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “We are aware that there is a male status hirearchy, and certain men rank higher.”

    +1 to this.

    It goes back to what Susan mentioned about the women not actually perceiving him as the winner.

    That is not actually the problem (assuming she is not pregnant or has a child from that meeting, in which case he is definitely the winner.)

    But the realization of the beta male that he is the winner and you are the loser.

    What she thinks is irrelevant.

    But having to live a life where my mates past was a painful daily reminder of my own inadequacies would become a torturous hell.

    And note that she is the one that initially pointed out the inadequacy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “We are aware that there is a male status hirearchy, and certain men rank higher.”

      That ties in with what I’ve said in the past about male competition determining status, which is how women select men.

      What you’re saying is that if you are not a “top male,” as determined by intrasexual competition, and a woman has been with a man of higher status than you at some point, you will never feel like a winner with her.

      Which is an excellent argument for women refusing to disclose that kind of information abou their pasts. We have no such hangups, and I’ve never understood before why men insist we do. The whole Alpha widow concept is trumpeted in the sphere, but I’ve never encountered it IRL. It’s because it’s projection, pure and simple.

  • INTJ

    @ Kiwi

    What’s the female equivalent of the firey alpha cad that men get burned by and that sorta says something about them?

    I’d guess the bitchy sluts. The analogy doesn’t really hold though, as men are required to approach women and thus they can be forgiven for choosing the wrong person and getting burned, while women don’t have to approach men so they can put their attention into filtering out the alpha cads.

    Anyways, the point is moot, since I haven’t been burned yet, so I shouldn’t be expected to commit to someone who has.

  • Bells

    @INTJ,

    Wait so female virgins don’t have an accurate estimate of their own sex drive? Personally, I know that I’d need sex at least a few times a week, but would have trouble having sex more than twice a day over the long run. Thus, my sex drive means I’d want sex pretty much daily

    Speaking only for myself, I don’t really have an accurate estimate of my sex drive. I figure that it’s not low because I think about sex way too much and masturbate frequently.
    So it could be anywhere between moderate and high. But I’m open to anything. I’ll figure it out when I cross that bridge.

    @Jesse,

    You should auction your virginity on eBay. If you’re hot you’ll make a killing.

    no way! Talk about setting up a recipe to have an awful first time with some random, rich, and (most likely) unattractive stranger.

    Speaking of the difference between male and female virginity…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8225704.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/154702999.jpg

  • SayWhaat

    Anyways, the point is moot, since I haven’t been burned yet, so I shouldn’t be expected to commit to someone who has.

    Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    I think I might prefer N=20 with losers as opposed to N=2 with complete champions that got regular and hot sex easily, and I have to work my ass off to get missionary once a month.

    That’s what I felt earlier about Susan’s anecdotal girl who “didn’t have the heart to turn a guy down for sex”. The lack of incongruence is quite endearing, even in someone with high N.

  • Jesse

    Bells,

    no way! Talk about setting up a recipe to have an awful first time with some random, rich, and (most likely) unattractive stranger.

    Well, one out of three ain’t bad. Gee, I was just trying to be helpful. ;-)

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Huh? I don’t think I said that. I was keenly aware of mine, lol.

    Then why would there be a mismatch? Sex drive seems like the kind of thing one could easily discuss while waiting for marriage and shopping around. Throw that in with other metrics of compatibility such as religion and desire for kids.

  • Abbot

    “But having to live a life where my mates past was a painful daily reminder of my own inadequacies would become a torturous hell.”

    Then for the multipenised woman to “win” she has to be hyper hypergamous. That is, she not only has to marry-up to be satisfied, she has to marry up to or better than her best ever such that the husband is satisfied. Otherwise, his misery will eventually become her misery.

  • INTJ

    There are definitely male equivalents of radfems. Think of the KKK member railing about how women should be barefoot and pregnant. The big difference is that the mass media pays attention to radfems and disseminates their viewpoints as viewpoints to actually consider, whereas the KKK guy is looked upon as a dinosaur.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Isn’t the male equivalent of a radfem an MRA?

  • Lokland

    Left this on the wrong thread.

    Also, the analogy to the girl making a mistake and then choosing the beta is the guy who goes to the bar and hits on the hottest girl in a group, gets rejected, goes down one, gets rejected, goes down another one etc.

    He is by both men and women considered a total fuck-tard. (And a total game fail.)

    But, in the end, getting rejected for sex is how men learn their SMV.

  • SayWhaat

    Sex drive seems like the kind of thing one could easily discuss while waiting for marriage and shopping around.

    Well. I hesitate to get too personal about this, but…that’s not how it works out.

    Right before my boyfriend and I broke up, we were barely having sex. The frequency didn’t slow down to a steady amount as I had expected, it plummeted off a cliff. It became that the only time we ever had sex was when I asked for it. He started talking about experimenting with celibacy as part of his exploration with Buddhism. Obviously that didn’t fly well with me.

    I don’t know if it had to do with his depression, insecurities, or what, but his sex drive just vanished.

    I’ll be honest – I’m terrified of that happening to me in a marriage. I don’t know how else to screen for it, apart from monitoring sex drive changes for an extended period of time within a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll be honest – I’m terrified of that happening to me in a marriage. I don’t know how else to screen for it, apart from monitoring sex drive changes for an extended period of time within a relationship.

      Differences in sex drive are common, and represent a serious form of incompatibility. I would never choose a life partner without knowing we were well matched sexually, nor would I want my kids to do so. It’s not the problem of experience, it’s the problem of appetite, something that is hardwired to some extent. A woman whose man wants sex less frequently than she does will find that her attraction for him falls off a cliff. He becomes “not sexy” immediately and literally.

      This is more common than one might expect. I know this from my own experience and also via my internist, who hears a lot of these complaints.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

    WTH? Often I say things and don’t remember saying them, but I can confidently say I would not have said this. One can’t even begin to compare the amount of hurt caused by the two. They’re orders of magnitude apart. (Well, to be sure, I don’t know what being raped would actually feel like, but I do know the social embarrassment from it being an affront to my masculinity would be extreme – at least assuming the rapist was male).

  • INTJ

    @ Bells

    Speaking only for myself, I don’t really have an accurate estimate of my sex drive. I figure that it’s not low because I think about sex way too much and masturbate frequently.
    So it could be anywhere between moderate and high. But I’m open to anything. I’ll figure it out when I cross that bridge.

    Well I’d imagine that if you masturbated whenever you wanted to, then the frequency of masturbation would be similar to how often you would want to have sex in a relationship.

    But then again this stuff works sorta differently for us guys where it’s just a matter of how often one needs to dump all that semen…

  • Abbot

    “getting rejected for sex is how men learn their SMV.”

    How does a woman learn?

  • SayWhaat

    “getting rejected for sex is how men learn their SMV.”

    How does a woman learn?

    By getting rejected for commitment. That’s what you wanted to hear, isn’t it? ;)

  • SayWhaat

    Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

    WTH? Often I say things and don’t remember saying them, but I can confidently say I would not have said this. One can’t even begin to compare the amount of hurt caused by the two. They’re orders of magnitude apart.

    Glad to hear it. Perhaps it was just a poorly-constructed analogy.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t think its nearly as much of a problem is people are led to believe but it is an effect that seems independent of feminism.

    I do think is a big problem but I think is a mix of feminism and consumerism. You need more things to raise in status than less say 50 years ago. I mean we have a new Iphone every year that is a lot of diapers money there, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacoana

      HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!

  • HanSolo

    @Abbot

    She takes the hottest guy willing to have sex with her and subtracts anywhere from 1-4 points depending on how hot she is.

  • HanSolo

    SayWhaat,

    Yeah, but that would be more speaking to her MMV (largely influenced by her SMV), if she gets rejected for commitment.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “I’m terrified of that happening to me in a marriage. I don’t know how else to screen for it, apart from monitoring sex drive changes for an extended period of time within a relationship.”

    Did he or you gain weight?
    I had a girlfriend who gained about 10 pounds which killed all desire I had for her.

    Another situation was overtime in a relationship after hurting my leg and gaining 15 pounds, my sex drive dried up.

    —————————-

    I’ll cop to having lost all sexual interest in a few women over the course of 3 to 6 months.

    It was almost always predicated by feelings of unhappiness within the relationship.

  • SayWhaat

    She takes the hottest guy willing to have sex with her and subtracts anywhere from 1-4 points depending on how hot she is.

    And how is she supposed to know how hot she is, if she’s getting burned by guys out of her league in the first place? :)

  • SayWhaat

    Did he or you gain weight?
    I had a girlfriend who gained about 10 pounds which killed all desire I had for her.

    Yeah I’ve gained about 200 lbs in the past year. Do you think that could have been the problem?

    (I’m joking. :) )

    I’ll cop to having lost all sexual interest in a few women over the course of 3 to 6 months.

    It was almost always predicated by feelings of unhappiness within the relationship.

    I suppose this just leads more credence to the additional filters I’ve decided to institute.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    I realize your trolling intentionally but what your basically saying is that the only way for a woman to learn who she can marry is by fucking men until one accepts her.

    Pussy though important is not the only factor involved in getting the ring.

  • OffTheCuff

    INTJ: “Think of the KKK member railing about how women should be barefoot and pregnant. ”

    You call that equivalent to a radfem who advocates killing off of most men, since we only really need few of the best ones? Never mind, don’t wanna get into this.

    SayWhaat has a good point. You have no idea what your sex drive is until you maintain it over a few years. Me, I can vary from just over daily, down to a dealbreaking minimum of once a week (which would come with much self-love on the side).

    Every other day should be everyone’s goal, to keep the bonding maximized. You might not hit it, but try.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Well. I hesitate to get too personal about this, but…that’s not how it works out.

    Right before my boyfriend and I broke up, we were barely having sex. The frequency didn’t slow down to a steady amount as I had expected, it plummeted off a cliff. It became that the only time we ever had sex was when I asked for it. He started talking about experimenting with celibacy as part of his exploration with Buddhism. Obviously that didn’t fly well with me.

    Uh huh. What can I say. Opera guys are weird… That’s scary.

    I don’t know if it had to do with his depression, insecurities, or what, but his sex drive just vanished.

    I never knew one’s sex drive could go away because of such stuff. I mean I’ve heard about women having constant “head-aches”, but that seemed to be more of a loss of attraction than loss of sex-drive. Personally, my sex drive has always been strong, and the only variance it has exhibited has been due to my exercise levels.

    I’ll be honest – I’m terrified of that happening to me in a marriage. I don’t know how else to screen for it, apart from monitoring sex drive changes for an extended period of time within a relationship.

    Yeah that’s scary. I guess that’s why one should make it clear that the other side of sexual exclusivity is sexual availability – a person who expects a committed exclusive relationship should also do everything possible to provide regular and enthusiastic sexual access. This includes working through any sex drive or attraction issues.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Do you think that could have been the problem?”

    Depends where you put it :P

    “I suppose this just leads more credence to the additional filters I’ve decided to institute.”

    SW, that was my really nice and indirect way of saying the woman weren’t bringing something important to the table. (And not of the hugs and kisses love you forever variety type things.)

  • Abbot

    “By getting rejected for commitment”

    Since she does not get rejected for sex, she believes her worth is much higher than it is in the eyes of men. Taking that into a committed relationship is poison for nearly all men. Her penis escapades ruin her on so many levels.

  • SayWhaat

    I realize your trolling intentionally but what your basically saying is that the only way for a woman to learn who she can marry is by fucking men until one accepts her.

    No. That is not what I am saying.

    A woman can learn her SMV/MMV from the guys who tell her they’d like to sleep with her, but “don’t want a relationship right now”. She doesn’t have to actually go through with the deed.

  • HanSolo

    She asks me to rate her looks! :D

    Seriously, her SMV is determined by the hotness of the guys willing to have sex, so I would say if she gets lots of legitimate male 10’s (not just in looks), like Ryan Gosling, wanting sex with her then she is probably at least a 9. Obviously a female 10 can’t subtract anything off, so it’s not a linear formula.

    Once we reach a female 5, she can probably get a few 8’s to have sex with her but it’s going to be more male 6’s and 7’s. So she needs to rate the man and then she can plug into the formula.

    Anyway, taking all this rating stuff to the extreme becomes ridiculous. It’s just an approximate and useful shorthand to talk about things.

  • Lokland

    Also, like you ex. I too have depression.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Doesn’t surprise me about the Buddhism thing. My impression is that, honestly, guys that are driven can sort of get lost in a project or adventure for weeks at a time and barely notice the existence of a SO, and not even sex is particularly needed.

    Add in some emotional discontent in the relationship, like Lok said (and I’ve definitely felt that to a limited extent), and, yeah, I would expect to see a huge, huge drop in sex drive.

    I could be wrong. Also wouldn’t surprise me.

    If you don’t mind me asking, SW, how did you react when you saw the sex drive start dying?

  • SayWhaat

    SW, that was my really nice and indirect way of saying the woman weren’t bringing something important to the table. (And not of the hugs and kisses love you forever variety type things.)

    No worries, I got it. Like I said, we weren’t compatible in the long-term. The disappearing sex drive was most likely a reflection of that growing realization.

    Which goes back to filtering and INTJ’s question. You can’t promise happiness to someone without demonstrating how that would play out.

  • INTJ

    @ OTC

    SayWhaat has a good point. You have no idea what your sex drive is until you maintain it over a few years. Me, I can vary from just over daily, down to a dealbreaking minimum of once a week (which would come with much self-love on the side).

    What do you think I’ve been doing since puberty?

    Anyways, it’s kinda embarrassing that despite my youth, my sex drive is almost identical to yours (can’t last more than a week without, and can’t regularly masturbate too much more than daily).

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

    When I was younger I did have lots of crushes on the so-called losers, nerds and outcasts. I have like the female reverse of “white knight,” whatever that would be called. But most of it was online, and the guys I liked were living far away.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What if Ryan Gosling wants to have sex with me? Am I a 9, t00?! Can I get Hot Men to marry me>!

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “My impression is that, honestly, guys that are driven can sort of get lost in a project or adventure for weeks at a time and barely notice the existence of a SO”

    This is another of my traits that can swing in the positive-negative direction depending on how I use it.

    I can get very focused on an individual task to the point little less than a nuke or pushing me into a wall can get me out of focus. My wife finally figured out that speaking to me while I’m reading/writing/thinking is largely not worth it.

    That has nothing to do with being driven. It can happen when reading a novel.

    At the same time, she has learned how to get my focus. She likes that.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat

    Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

    Good memory, kiddo. Right here:
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/09/25/politics-and-feminism/squaring-the-circle-on-female-solipsism/comment-page-6/
    #809 (in response to #780)
    Intentionally equivocal, IMO. I’m sure there’s some variation on Godwin’s Law that applies…

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    How do I search the site for a specific set of words?

  • SayWhaat

    My impression is that, honestly, guys that are driven can sort of get lost in a project or adventure for weeks at a time and barely notice the existence of a SO, and not even sex is particularly needed.

    He had his manic moments. I don’t think it was so much being driven and getting lost in a project as it was desperately pursuing happiness that he couldn’t create for himself. :(

    If you don’t mind me asking, SW, how did you react when you saw the sex drive start dying?

    Difficult to say. I think I first reacted by trying to spice things up, then piling on the Girl Game with cooking, gifting him things he needed, etc…but everything I knew about Girl Game seemed completely useless with him. He didn’t care about feeling desirable or needed. I was at a complete loss.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I thought about the possibility of commuting, though that may be wishful thinking
    I live in San Bernardino County and many of my friends commute to LA regularly for work. Is common here since California is freaking huge.

    Generally I think women *enjoy* thinking about individual emotional reactions to particular situations more than men do, which probably means they are usually better about it. On the average, of course.
    The Herd is a delicate embroidery of subtle hints and changes. Women that were not good with this probably ended up bleeding themselves to death during childbirth out of the lack of support of her ‘sisters’.

    But her writing style and praise for arranged marriage definitely don’t match with what I’d expect from PJ.
    She has done it before, that is why many suspected that she was slutty it up confident that she could get an arranged marriage to a a guy that didn’t knew her past. She has denied this but is PJ we are talking about she has lied many times and she will do it again.

  • SayWhaat

    At the same time, she has learned how to get my focus. She likes that.

    How does she do that, if you don’t mind sharing?

  • OffTheCuff

    INTJ: With. Other. People.

    It’s just different. You’ll see.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

    Yes.
    In one case, it’s damaged goods, a girl who had a really tough time and did some crappy stuff because she wanted a relationship and never really found anything, but couldn’t do better, but you’re the most awesome guy she’s with.

    The other is a constant reminder of your social inferiority, or POSSIBLE social inferiority.

    This really would not be a problem if women universally save their unrestricted sexuality for their husbands. However, when girls start to let the hypergamy seep out a little bit, you start to feel very commoditized, unspecial, and just like the best she could do.

    To some extent? Yeah, that’s true. But some guys have a really hard time dealing with that, and REALLY do not want to be reminded of that.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Difficult to say. I think I first reacted by trying to spice things up, then piling on the Girl Game with cooking, gifting him things he needed, etc…but everything I knew about Girl Game seemed completely useless with him. He didn’t care about feeling desirable or needed. I was at a complete loss.

    Sorry, SW :(

    Depression is a bitch. It is extremely difficult to deal with it. I’ve gotten better with age, but it tore my life apart for quite a while. It’s definitely not any sort of statement about you. A lot of us are damaged in a lot of ways that are not immediately obvious, but quickly come to the forefront when we become vulnerable.

    Sometimes, you do the filtering you need to do it, and it just doesn’t work out. Nothing wrong with that.

  • Lokland

    “How does she do that, if you don’t mind sharing?”

    1. Puts her face right underneath mine (typically when I am reading but not supremely focused) and just stares at me until I look at her. Then she blinks (I believe I’ve mentioned our personal joke about fluttering lashes), anyway, I love the way her eyes look up close.

    2. I am sitting, working. She walks up, hand on back other on my hand whispers in ear ‘I need your help with something.’

    3. When feeling particularly down I tend to go into an internal ‘the world is horrible, there is no hope’ kind of inner monologue. (Some of which gets displayed here.) I tend to walk when I am thinking (constructively or despairingly), she plays this game where she will stand about 7-8 feet around the corner and when I walk around it she will sprints and jumps at me and I catch her, legs around waste (one time my inner monologue went ‘if she’s a zombie I’m fucked’) and then kisses my neck and does the eye thing from number one.

    I find her eyes very calming.

    At the end of these my focus is laser-like.

    Also, the typical walk-in in lingerie or whip cream bikini also works. I don’t however care for a naked women walking around. Its not particularly special enough to warrant focus.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      That’s some serious love you’re getting from your wife. You are a lucky man.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I can get very focused on an individual task to the point little less than a nuke or pushing me into a wall can get me out of focus. My wife finally figured out that speaking to me while I’m reading/writing/thinking is largely not worth it.
    I think this might be a common trait for really smart guys. Hubby is like that when he is in “The zone”, nothing moves him out of it. I mostly put food next to him so he won’t starve himself…Again.

  • HanSolo

    @SayWhaat

    I just realized that in a way I can feel your pain, though in a oblique way.

    I didn’t feel the pressure from my earthly parents but I did feel pressure from my heavenly father (as I perceived things at the time) to do a difficult phd in physics and astronomy. Something that I didn’t really want to do but did to be obedient to my perception of god’s inspiration to me. It was hard and miserable at times and also had some great moments and accomplishments, of discovering things about the universe, interacting with colleagues that eventually won the Nobel prize and having the satisfaction of doing something hard that I did find interesting. So, it was a mixed bag but I definitely didn’t do it primarily out of my undying love for the career itself.

  • SayWhaat

    Depression is a bitch. It is extremely difficult to deal with it. I’ve gotten better with age, but it tore my life apart for quite a while. It’s definitely not any sort of statement about you. A lot of us are damaged in a lot of ways that are not immediately obvious, but quickly come to the forefront when we become vulnerable.

    Sometimes, you do the filtering you need to do it, and it just doesn’t work out. Nothing wrong with that.

    Thanks, ADBG. I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out where I could have messed up so that I don’t make the same mistakes next time, and it’s a gnawing concern, especially when it comes to marriage. He was acutely aware that our relationship ended in a *very similar* manner to his parents’ marriage (his dad just grew so emotionally distant that his mother grew tired and allowed him to leave), and I know that it hurt him.

    You’re right, sometimes it just doesn’t work out. Which makes the concept of marriage scarier, but that’s part of managing relationships. Commitment isn’t just exclusivity, it’s also the resolve to work through problems.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “. But some guys have a really hard time dealing with that, and REALLY do not want to be reminded of that.”

    I’m fairly clinical about my interpretation of relationships.
    The reason I am with my wife is because I cannot get laid like a Cad.
    She is with me because she could not do better.

    Those statements are not offensive, just truths and do not preclude valuing one another.

    I am aware of all of my inferiorities in great detail.

    The problem is being with someone who given the choice between my inferiorities for life or better for a night, chose better for a night and then inferiority for life.

    I cannot personally say that I blame them. It was good for them but at the same time it bites to be informed that even offering everything, the other guy was still better for one night.

    Thats an absolutely huge difference in value. How could I possibly be valued?

  • Mireille

    A guy that burns you, alpha or beta, is a cad in my book. Whether you want to distinguish between both to rationalize your insecurity speaks volume about a guy’s fear, not my equal feelings of rejection. It’s like some guys are trying to have a dick contest from *inside* my vagina and I say no. The thing is whether you date or hook up with a alpha or beta, you have 50% chances to get burnt because that is how life works anyway, no guarantees.
    I personally would have no use for a guy busy classifying my exes and seeing how he feels about them; sounds too self-involved to me.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out where I could have messed up so that I don’t make the same mistakes next time,”

    Your only mistake was dating someone with a mental disorder.
    Depression must be curbed from within. Others merely act as bandaids.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    SMV assessment
    This might be odd but no one uses a mirror anymore? Just curious.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Aha. Yes, getting your feelings hurt from rejection is similar to getting your feelings hurt from rape in that it isn’t a voluntary feeling that’s under one’s control. That’s not to say that in any way compares in magnitude.

    So you were correct:

    Perhaps it was just a poorly-constructed analogy.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

    Yup. FWIW, I also feel that nerdy girls are fully justified in filtering out the guys who used to go ignore them and go for the hot bitchy girls.

  • INTJ

    @ Mireille

    A guy that burns you, alpha or beta, is a cad in my book. Whether you want to distinguish between both to rationalize your insecurity speaks volume about a guy’s fear, not my equal feelings of rejection. It’s like some guys are trying to have a dick contest from *inside* my vagina and I say no. The thing is whether you date or hook up with a alpha or beta, you have 50% chances to get burnt because that is how life works anyway, no guarantees.

    Uh huh? I was using “alpha” as mostly synonymous with “cad” and “beta” as mostly synonymous with “dad”. Basically, I don’t want someone who got burnt by an obvious player and should have known well enough to steer clear from him.

  • SayWhaat

    Thanks for the supportive comments, guys. I’ve been pulling some long days at work recently, and discussing my ex has made me beyond emotionally exhausted, so I’m calling it a night. See y’all in the morning.

  • Bells

    @Anacaona,

    SMV assessment
    This might be odd but no one uses a mirror anymore? Just curious

    Ego inflation

    @INTJ

    Well I’d imagine that if you masturbated whenever you wanted to, then the frequency of masturbation would be similar to how often you would want to have sex in a relationship.

    Things can be a bit different with girls because of our bodily reproductive systems and hormones. Sometimes I swear that my body is trying to trick me into getting pregnant. The times that I am extremely aroused usually coincides with my most fertile period. So sex drive is not always a steady frequency of desire.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ego inflation
    Would you elaborate on this?

    Sometimes I swear that my body is trying to trick me into getting pregnant.,/i>
    It is…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Loks
    Not sure. Google site search? I just bookmark stuff. You’d be amazed by the amount of inconsistent shit that’s been said around here…

  • Mireille

    @ INTJ,

    Most women don’t even know the Alpha/Beta classification; Red Pill talk is not that widespread yet. So while a girl would be saying “I had 2 bfs before one was in a [Alpha activity] and the other was into [Beta activity] but it ended badly with both” for her, the result is failure in both cases, regardless of what type of guys they were. Relationship fail is what I’m saying and everybody makes mistakes. We all think there is an awesome person waiting for us around the corner, maybe the guy/girl is THAT awesome. What I’m saying is that I consider the end result, relationship didn’t survive and it happens with all types of guys, alpha or beta.

    @ Bells,

    Your body is tricking you, it is TELLING you to get a guy ASAP and get busy. It does the same to me, and I can say (***TMI ZONE***) masturbation doesn’t do it those days, I can feel it, only the superior physical strength of a man applied on the body can get rid of the general restless feeling that takes over. It sounds like some sort of medicine lol.
    Celibacy is getting unbearable some days.

  • Bells

    Ego inflation. Would you elaborate on this?

    I think that it can be hard for anyone to personally admit that you’re not all that, especially in terms of looks. A plain/average girl can fool themselves into thinking that they are actually the cute/pretty girl because of self-denial.

  • Mireille

    I obviously meant *isn’t tricking you*

  • Mike C

    ADBG @ 303

    +1000

    I hope this doesn’t sound patronizing on my part, but I’m really impressed with many of your recent comments. You are “figuring things out” at a much younger age than I did. The Red Pill/Matrix metaphor is used a lot in SMP discussions, but you are correctly observing that it applies to these “status games” and a lot of other broader stuff in society.

    Notice in the last thread that Susan said a man who is not living a productive life is basically crap and not worthy of love, sex-time, etc. Or at least is unattractive.

    “Productive” is socially constructed.

    Yup. I’ve made this point myself before, but I think this is one of those things most people don’t want to think too deeply about. What is “productive”. Is the guy who gets up in the morning and puts on a suit, and spends all day shuffling paper, computer files, and making Powerpoints “productive”. Or is it all just bullshit? I’ll tell ya, the heart surgeon who saved my Mom’s life is productive. In my mind, there is “real” work which actually benefits people and then there is a lot of “phony” work. I get paid quite well to do what I think is mostly “phony” work, but I think many people have to believe they are being “productive”.

    On the other hand, according to this status competition, I am not a winner.

    And some people cannot STAND not being a winner. Or feeling like a loser.

    Funny thing is, once you realize you don’t have to play someone else’s game and can define your own game with your own rules, you can be a “winner” but most people are stuck playing that game and don’t even realize it.

    BTW, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments about the social interactions with your group and some of the guys. I think you are going to have to retire ADBG and change it to AMOG of that group.

  • Mike C

    Right before my boyfriend and I broke up, we were barely having sex. The frequency didn’t slow down to a steady amount as I had expected, it plummeted off a cliff. It became that the only time we ever had sex was when I asked for it. He started talking about experimenting with celibacy as part of his exploration with Buddhism. Obviously that didn’t fly well with me.

    Just curious, how long had you been together when the plummeting took place?

  • Bells

    @Mireille,

    Your body is tricking you, it is TELLING you to get a guy ASAP and get busy. It does the same to me, and I can say (***TMI ZONE***) masturbation doesn’t do it those days, I can feel it, only the superior physical strength of a man applied on the body can get rid of the general restless feeling that takes over. It sounds like some sort of medicine lol.
    Celibacy is getting unbearable some days.

    LOL, I can empathize to what you’re saying. After I lost connection with the last guy I was with, my body started becoming much more persistent. That’s why I bought a vibrator. I was hoping that bringing the big guns would help settle things a bit more peacefully. Needless to say, it’s been sort of working. But I’m curious to know how much longer my body will settle for it before it starts demanding for the real deal.

    We both badly need to get into good relationships!

  • Kiwi

    A Definite Beta Guy,

    “The homing sperm cells zoom in on ICBM warheads and actually go backwards through time and that’s what REALLY caused the USSR to collapse.”

    This lady’s son was commissioned by the US Congress to repopulate Alaska, while the other mom’s son is responsible for the Asian population crisis;

  • Bells

    And I apologize to all for being really TMI the last couple of days. I’m usually very conservative when it comes to the discussion of sex in real life. I’m starting to take too much advantage from being relatively anonymous on a public forum :)

  • Mireille

    @ Bells,

    LOL I hear you, I definitely did cross the line myself tonight. FWIW, we mostly hear about how hard celibacy is on men, a bit of diversity can help around here.

  • Kiwi

    “Right before my boyfriend and I broke up, we were barely having sex. The frequency didn’t slow down to a steady amount as I had expected, it plummeted off a cliff. It became that the only time we ever had sex was when I asked for it. He started talking about experimenting with celibacy as part of his exploration with Buddhism. Obviously that didn’t fly well with me.”

    He may have just had a much lower libido than you or maybe he really did start to feel such things were fleeting, temporary pleasures not worth his time and emotional investment. People with a genuine philosophical or spiritual penchant do exist, and carrying on like a “normal” person deeply invested in the ways of the world just don’t work for them.

    On the other hand religious celibacy is often not life long.

    Whatever the case its true that you didn’t need to stick around to find out.
    However maybe if you delved into too you’d also want to take a break from sex. Of course that would be entirely up to.

    Regarding sexual compatibility, I wonder what happens when two people who are on the same page about everything else in life and deeply in love and planning to marry do when they come to realize they are completely sexually incompatible? Of course its better to find that out before the actual wedding.

  • Mike C

    ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

    Hope,

    Yes, I think the vast majority of men feel some instinctual need to feel like they are the “best” guy she has had or can get. Generally speaking, I think most men “know their place” in the hierarchy so most men know if another man is objectively better than them (in terms of looks, social status, etc.). It simply is very uncomfortable if you know she has had a “better” man in the past. That is the fuck phantoms Bastiat talks about. And if there are objectively better men in her past, there is always the nagging “settling” issue.

  • Mike C

    How do I search the site for a specific set of words?

    I highly doubt it is a search. I’m pretty sure MM has a file with saved material from various commenters that he can pull out with ease when the time is right.

  • Kiwi

    INTJ: “Think of the KKK member railing about how women should be barefoot and pregnant. ”

    OTC: “You call that equivalent to a radfem who advocates killing off of most men, since we only really need few of the best ones? Never mind, don’t wanna get into this.”

    Considering that KKK members advocate killing off competition, and that too usually a particularly choice demographic of competition….

  • Kiwi

    INTJ, “I’d guess the bitchy sluts. The analogy doesn’t really hold though, as men are required to approach women and thus they can be forgiven for choosing the wrong person and getting burned, while women don’t have to approach men so they can put their attention into filtering out the alpha cads.”

    Beggars can’t be choosers. What if the woman has never had men approach her and the only one that does ends up being a cad that she couldn’t filter out due to inexperience and naivety?

  • Mike C

    A guy that burns you, alpha or beta, is a cad in my book.

    Obviously, a guy who lies to get sex fits the bill here, but I am genuinely curious what other sorts of examples you would consider “being burned”?

    Whether you want to distinguish between both to rationalize your insecurity speaks volume about a guy’s fear, not my equal feelings of rejection. It’s like some guys are trying to have a dick contest from *inside* my vagina and I say no. The thing is whether you date or hook up with a alpha or beta, you have 50% chances to get burnt because that is how life works anyway, no guarantees.
    I personally would have no use for a guy busy classifying my exes and seeing how he feels about them; sounds too self-involved to me.

    You of course have every right to feel however you want, but I’ll simply note the both your opening and closing of this paragraph is essentially entirely dismissive of the idea that a guy has feelings or is even entitled to his feelings and of course you include the buzzword “insecurity”. FWIW, I’ve read enough of your comments to know you don’t really understand male psychology at all, or just how common certain thoughts/feelings are across most men. FWIW, I’ve had the opportunity to be around many different guys of different stripes. I’ll tell you this as food for thought….the guys most able to not be “jealous” or “insecure” are also the guys who are most likely to see all women as fungible commodities, replaceable, and unlikely to form a deep emotional investment with one woman. You might ponder that one.

  • Jesse

    I have a few perhaps idiosyncratic thoughts on female ambition I’d like to relate to the class.

    I’ve understood intuitively that women cannot give 100% to their work and home lives simultaneously. That is fine – I’d be incompatible with an insatiable career woman who had little desire to be home.

    However, perhaps due to personal reasons I have a strong desire to see inner strength, ambition and resolve in a woman. For the last fifteen years my life has more or less revolved around a single goal – athletics, long story – towards which I have devoted a semi-astronomical amount of time and energy to this point in my life. I have endured significant obstacles and my will is still strong.

    I have this desire to explore the limits of what I can become, in more ways than one. In short, the idea of goals, determination and striving to make oneself special are central to my life experience, and I would really love to see these qualities in a mate. If I had to watch my wife sit contentedly on the couch for hours a day I think I’d go nuts, or leave her. I need to see some fire in her eyes.

    Quiet, steely determination (which does not rob an atom of femininity from a woman in my eyes) is important to me. The desire to set dreams and work towards them and the mental fortitude necessary to persevere and overcome challenges are things I can relate to, and they tell me she’s special and much rarer than the others. I think it’s one of the things that can elevate a woman from “She’s nice” to “Wow, I want to build a life with her. I want to make her my wife. She’d be a great number two in my household.”

    I don’t drift through life without designs on achieving something, and I’m not sure I’d be able to relate to a person who wasn’t the same way. The issue I have is that I haven’t reconciled this with what I wrote at the beginning – I don’t want a career woman through-and-through who’s obsessed with making partner at the firm.

    So the question is this: how can a woman display both qualities? I suppose her life up to the point of marriage and children can display hard work and determination – i.e. she worked hard to get where she did, and then we met and started a family. But as much as I’m enamored of nurturing women I’d hope that isn’t the end of it. Maybe her ambitions will have been largely achieved and she’ll shift into a slower gear, focusing more on our family, but I feel that some part of me would be sad if the non-housewife part of my wife died and she weren’t still curious to push her limits. That would have been a big part of what I fell in love with.

    I know being a housewife can be a lot of work, and raising my children is not a menial job, so I don’t want to trivialize that at all, but the essence of what I’m saying is that if I ask myself, “Jesse, what does your woman want out of life?” and I have a vision of her shrugging her shoulders and blissfully replying, “I don’t know,” I’d be freaked out.

    Maybe I’m making too big a deal of this, but I can tell I haven’t figured it all out.

  • Mike C

    Most women don’t even know the Alpha/Beta classification;

    So what? Just because most women are not intellectually aware of the classifications doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and more importantly guys amongst each other know who is who even if they don’t use those specific terms. The engineering student knows he isn’t in the same category of guys as the President of the football team fraternity.

    The thing you are not getting is the engineering student doesn’t want to have to compete with the fraternity President, and the more important point is the lack of congruence if a woman dates the engineering guy but dated the President in the past. Congruence is a very important concept. It is stressed often in Game circles. I think there is an equivalent female congruence, and that is that a woman has shown consistency in the “type of man” she dates/gets involved in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The thing you are not getting is the engineering student doesn’t want to have to compete with the fraternity President, and the more important point is the lack of congruence if a woman dates the engineering guy but dated the President in the past. Congruence is a very important concept. It is stressed often in Game circles. I think there is an equivalent female congruence, and that is that a woman has shown consistency in the “type of man” she dates/gets involved in.

      Women just do not see this the same way. We generally have no access to information about intrasexual male competition, which is why we use self-confidence and assertiveness as a proxy for social dominance over other males. Those males who can easily display themselves as winners among males, e.g. athletes, frat members, and later men who achieve public recognition or celebrity – will have it made. And they do.

      Among the men I dated:

      Football star/President of frat
      Emo singer songwriter
      DJ
      Computer programmer
      Unemployed bio major working construction
      French tutor
      Operations Research doctoral candidate
      Finance guy

      Every one of these guys was confident.

      The least impressive/appealing over time: the jock, the DJ and the unemployed guy.

      Biggest assholes/cads: Computer programmer and OR PhD candidate.

      Most prone to drama: emo guy (still is!)

      Marriage material: Finance guy

      Mireille is right, women don’t categorize men, men do that to themselves.

  • Jesse

    And I apologize to all for being really TMI the last couple of days.

    Yeah, I really don’t think of myself as a prude, but when the girls start talking about diddling themselves with vibrators, I kind of want to leave the room.

    Or take my clothes off. I can’t decide.

    Can’t quit the jokes…

  • Kiwi

    Me,
    “What’s the female equivalent of the firey alpha cad that men get burned by and that sorta says something about them?”

    Marellus answers,
    “A smoker.”

    You mean a smoker of tobacco, cloves, ganja or crack?
    Or just a smokin’ hot woman?

    Ramble answers,
    “I am worried our first interaction will be combatitive, but, as I have said many times before, “Our experiences are not analogous.”
    We are different. We have different experiences. Yin and Yang and all that.”

    Don’t worry love, I’m not combative IRL.
    And Ylang Ylang is my favorite essential oil. ;)

  • Kiwi

    “I’ve understood intuitively that women cannot give 100% to their work and home lives simultaneously. ”

    Neither can men. Many marriages have dissolved over this and Susan stated her own husband consciously took a less profitable track in his career so he could spend more time with his family.

  • Jesse

    Kiwi 398,

    Yes, I agree. I am planning to work very hard for the foreseeable future and then hopefully transition somewhat myself more towards family life. I want to be with the children as well.

    It’s just that if stay-at-home Mom and stay-at-home Dad are opposite poles, I’d rather be towards the former.

  • Jesse

    Lokland, to comb a site I use the form site:hookingupsmart.com [keywords] in Google.

    I don’t know how well it works here, since I’ve primarily used it elsewhere (with good success), but give it a whirl if you like. Normal techniques when searching with Google apply.

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Yes.
    In one case, it’s damaged goods, a girl who had a really tough time and did some crappy stuff because she wanted a relationship and never really found anything, but couldn’t do better, but you’re the most awesome guy she’s with.

    The other is a constant reminder of your social inferiority, or POSSIBLE social inferiority.

    This really would not be a problem if women universally save their unrestricted sexuality for their husbands. However, when girls start to let the hypergamy seep out a little bit, you start to feel very commoditized, unspecial, and just like the best she could do.

    To some extent? Yeah, that’s true. But some guys have a really hard time dealing with that, and REALLY do not want to be reminded of that.

    I think some women would spare guys who feel this way a lot of heartache by being more congruent and consistent in their mate choices.

    If a woman likes betas, she would be better served to date betas exclusively.

    If a woman likes alphas, she would be better served to date alphas exclusively.

    Men clearly don’t like “price discrimination” so the increased congruent behavior on the part of females would spare men a lot more pain and anxiety.

    This is how I approach dating. I know what I like/want, even though dating can be frustrating sometimes. When I meet a guy, any guy, I tend to compare them to my exes to see how they stack up. If I feel like I’ve dated better quality guys, or I feel like I could do better than dating him, I don’t date the guy. I’d rather focus my attention on men of equal or greater quality to my exes (preferably greater). During times that I’m surrounded by guys who can’t compete with or can’t out-compete my exes, I just stay single. If I suddenly started dating betas, the guys would probably be able to tell from my attitude/behavior that I wasn’t very impressed by them.

    In all honesty, I’d rather be thought of as a picky/stuck-up bitch than a “price discriminating” one.

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    Thanks, ADBG. I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out where I could have messed up so that I don’t make the same mistakes next time, and it’s a gnawing concern, especially when it comes to marriage. He was acutely aware that our relationship ended in a *very similar* manner to his parents’ marriage (his dad just grew so emotionally distant that his mother grew tired and allowed him to leave), and I know that it hurt him.

    You’re right, sometimes it just doesn’t work out. Which makes the concept of marriage scarier, but that’s part of managing relationships. Commitment isn’t just exclusivity, it’s also the resolve to work through problems.

    Don’t beat yourself up about things too much. Many relationships end, and sometimes incompatibilities are not able to be fixed. I’ve dumped two guys over the issue of sexual incompatibility. I know exactly what you are feeling right now. All I can say is keep your head up, keep an open mind, and keep those filters intact. :)

  • Mireille

    @ Mike C,

    I know a lot of guys just *react* at the word insecurity anytime it is written here, feels like Pavlov circus ring sometimes; however that is the right word to use. FYI I definitely get what you and other *insecure* guys are saying. I commend you at least for recognizing and acknowledging that *weakness* and trying to find ways to bypass it and not come off as *losers*. What I’m saying is that men shouldn’t spend so much of their time and base their relative worth on who their potential girlfriend dated before them. Maybe that’s just me or a maybe it is a woman’s thing, but if you have to take hypergamy as bible scripture then most men will have to date women from the lowest SR and SEC just to be sure they always come on top. Very unlikely so we all need to get over those defeating thoughts.

    Believing those limiting thoughts is what I consider insecure; sorry, no other word for it. I wouldn’t even consider that constant worry beta because I know some pretty confident introverts, they just keep to themselves and use their brain power to achieve great things, not wondering if some guy had a bigger penis than they do. Jealousy exists everywhere and everyone feels it; it is not some *special* feeling that only some guys feel is what I’m saying. I’m not dismissing, just pointing that it happens to men and women and there is really no need to create a mental block on that. If I have to consider the opposite POV, the guys I might be interested in will certainly have dated a blonde, with big breasts, who was the queen of cooks. Will that mean I should consider myself disqualified because I can match up to that ideal? NOPE, because they are not together anymore. Now I can cook, and can attempt the blond thing, but the guy is deluded if he thinks I’ll get implants and that should be clear from the beginning.

    I get it that being congruent is important but congruency doesn’t always appear under the same traits. Some people have set in types, only like blond/red head/brunette women…etc. Some are more able to adapt to find a mate. I think I am one of those people actually since I move between the most diverse circles of friends so YMMV on that; Congruency exists for me at the core level, it doesn’t matter if someone is a super athlete or an engineer if they share the same values and goals as I do, and are able to provide for our future children; the difference is where you spend your vacation time. Now, if one of our shared values is our love for money and cushy lifestyles then well, the engineer is of course out. But this isn’t what we’re talking about. Taking professions as example of congruency is not a good example since it assumes that people make choices solely on what THEY want, when after reading this thread and examples from Saywhaat, ADBG or HanSolo, we can see that people have several pressures that do NOT reflect their true penchants. You can choose to limit congruency to some gimmicky jock vs. engineer but there is clearly more than meets the eye.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Kiwi #397

    I need a haiku to answer that.

  • Mike C

    I know a lot of guys just *react* at the word insecurity anytime it is written here, feels like Pavlov circus ring sometimes; however that is the right word to use. FYI I definitely get what you and other *insecure* guys are saying. I commend you at least for recognizing and acknowledging that *weakness* and trying to find ways to bypass it and not come off as *losers*.

    Well…I’m glad that you could make an attempt to explain your position to try and not come across like such a *bitch*. FWIW, I’m not sure if I am a “winner” or a “loser” but I am employed and engaged. I think most guys “react” to women using the word “insecurity” because it is one of those standard transparent bullshit expressions like “you have a small dick”.

  • Mireille

    @ Sassy,

    I agree to some degree with you. I’m just wary of the *clean* cut categories of beta and alpha. Some men are able to blend those two groups and usually this is the types I have always like because they are able to fit in everywhere, trait that I *think* I also possess. I understand the congruency thing but it isn’t as easy to see as some guys would think. I’d have no problem dating some finance guy or someone who feeds the poor in southern countries, as long as any of those lifestyles are conducive to the family life I want. I personally favor the higher beta who obviously will possess some clear alpha traits. If future potential just block of those traits, they will miss the big picture and complexity of those individuals, and possibly not understand me as well. Anyway, I have been attracted to guys who seemingly don’t have lots of stuff in common, and it was fine; however, I have to be attracted. If that is the only congruent determining factor to be taken in account then ok.

  • Mireille

    @ Mike C,

    I just don’t know if you got the point I was making or took the bait hidden, well not really hidden, in my post. A woman just has to season a post with those key words for reason to disappear regardless of whether or not she saying something sensible. A pity!
    Btw, the loser/winner dichotomy was introduced by ADBG in this thread, just surfing the wave here. I don’t see men this way but it seems men see each other that way, ranks and hierarchy soothe you.

  • Mike C

    Men clearly don’t like “price discrimination” so the increased congruent behavior on the part of females would spare men a lot more pain and anxiety.

    This is how I approach dating. I know what I like/want, even though dating can be frustrating sometimes. When I meet a guy, any guy, I tend to compare them to my exes to see how they stack up. If I feel like I’ve dated better quality guys, or I feel like I could do better than dating him, I don’t date the guy. I’d rather focus my attention on men of equal or greater quality to my exes (preferably greater). During times that I’m surrounded by guys who can’t compete with or can’t out-compete my exes, I just stay single. If I suddenly started dating betas, the guys would probably be able to tell from my attitude/behavior that I wasn’t very impressed by them.

    In all honesty, I’d rather be thought of as a picky/stuck-up bitch than a “price discriminating” one.

    Sassy, as usual I find your straightforwardness refreshing and admirable. And I think your approach is the correct one.

    Personal anecdote time. There is a woman where I work in her early 40s. She looks really good for early 40s….but she is in her 40s. Body wise in great shape, but a face that has seen too many years of hard partying (mix of pretty and worn out look). I had her pegged early as a former “party girl” type and I was dead on right.

    Long story short, she flirts shamelessly with my alpha cad co-worker with just ridiculously over the top sexual innuendo. He’ll come to my cubicle and tell me their conversations and I just shake my head. I’m pretty sure he could bang her if he wanted to. Meanwhile, she HAS A BOYFRIEND who also works at the company. Both my co-worker and I have met him and actually stood a few feet from him with her there. Now I’m 6’3″ and my co-worker is 6’4″, and this guy is maybe 5’5″ and actually a few inches shorter than her. Let’s just say it is clear he was uncomfortable. It is also clear she has a thing for “bad boys with swagger” which makes my co-worker catnip to her, but she is 40+ post wall and this guy/her boyfriend has a good job making good money with a stable company. That is what I am talking about with “congruence”. The boyfriend is clearly not her type, not the type she has dated and chased for 20 years, but now other “considerations” enter the picture (she is also a single Mom). I’ve got some predictions on how this one plays out and I am watching with interest. It was funny when my co-worker had a conversation with her about various things which affirmed that I had her pegged exactly right.

    The problem is when women date a completely different type of guy often it is going to seem (probably correctly) that it is less about any authentic shift in genuine desire/preferences and more simply a pragmatic maneuver in response to a change in options perhaps due to her shifting SMV. This sort of thing seems most egregious when a woman dates a more alpha type in her 20s when her SMV is highest but then at 30-35 develops a preference for the more stable beta type.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      By your own admission, you describe a “hard partying” woman who is single in her 40s. No doubt you are correct in your assessment of her, but that would not apply to my audience here.

  • Mike C

    A woman just has to season a post with those key words for reason to disappear regardless of whether or not she saying something sensible. A pity!

    Well, using the word “insecure” with men is probably very similar to using the word “irrational” with women. In some cases, it may actually be correct and applicable and be part of something that is sensible, but it dangerous to use. One could dismiss a woman’s POV on something by simply stating “you are just being irrational and emotional”. Now I’ve just discarded the entirety of your POV and statement by just using a few loaded terms. Put another way, there are certain words that are used to inflame, dismiss, and trigger reactions.

    Btw, the loser/winner dichotomy was introduced by ADBG in this thread, just surfing the wave here. I don’t see men this way but it seems men see each other that way, ranks and hierarchy soothe you.

    Well…2 things here. First, you weren’t using in the same way ADBG was using it. Second, it is kind of like the N word. Two black people can use it amongst themselves without any of the associated pain or hurt. I think two guys can use that term amongst each other in sort of a joking manner, but I think generally when a woman uses that term in regards to a man the intent is clearly to demean. I’ve actually noticed women do this with “bitch” as well but there is no way a man can call a woman a bitch in some joking, friendly humor kind of way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Well, using the word “insecure” with men is probably very similar to using the word “irrational” with women.

      How about solipsism? :)

      I’ve actually noticed women do this with “bitch” as well but there is no way a man can call a woman a bitch in some joking, friendly humor kind of way.

      Agreed, so I’m wondering why you used that word in responding to Mireille.

  • Josie88

    @ Esco, Jackie, and Hansolo

    I believe that what Jackie is alluring to (?) is that one should have the integrity to practice what one preach? One should never feel entitled to a virgin if one have been around the block a few times?

    When I was a teenager, I was persuasive to date a man about a decade older than me. He was a friend of a friend, and my older sister thought it was cool to date someone older anyways. They also thought he was a good guy.

    Being naive, and a need to be love, I gave it a shot. I was under the impression we were to marry/eloped, but he rejected me after I slept with him. He told me that he no longer wanted to marry me because I disqualified myself. He was no virgin and definitely been around the block a few times.

    Last I heard, he still dating teenage girls or young girls under 21 but none of them meet his standard of a virgin wife because they slept with him.

    The thought of him settling down with a virgin after his cruel treatments of women makes my stomach turned, and he probably will find a virgin wife because he can!!!

  • Josie88

    I mean any girl, virgin or not disqualified herself by having sex with him before her wedding night.

    In other news, perhaps what Jackie is alluring to can be a good example of my 70 – something uncle.

    He himself disqualified my 55 year old friend for being too old, yet he wants me 20-something friends to give him a shot instead of being gross out by his age.

    Of course, men too have age limits. the difference between a 25 year old man and a 40 year old, is that the 25 year old has youth and the promise of wealth whereas the 40 year old must already be established and accomplished. There are outliners like Huge Hefner and his 20-something wives.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Running out to work, but one quick comment:

    What you’re saying is that if you are not a “top male,” as determined by intrasexual competition, and a woman has been with a man of higher status than you at some point, you will never feel like a winner with her.

    Never is a little bit of an overstatement. It depends on the guy in question.

    Ideally, this is why there is no sex before marriage, to preserve something that you only give to ONE man that you TRULY love.

    Not going to happen, of course, but women can apply the same general concept to their relationships. Give more of yourself to your current man that you truly love and make him feel like a winner.

  • Abbot

    “men shouldn’t spend so much of their time and base their relative worth on who their potential girlfriend dated before them.”

    Men do not base any aspect of their “worth” based on the existence of any woman, let alone what number or sort of men jacked on and in her body. If a woman is not considered worthy or appropriate for commitment beyond a screw for any reason he so determines, then she is not.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”(liking to think about individual emotional reactions would explain the abundance of women in the “helping” professions and the relative scarcity of women in technical fields”

    Not necessarily “helping” in the sense of nursing or social work…the ability to think about emotional reactions is also very helpful in high-level sales (which may or may not be “helping,” depending on what you’re selling and to whom), and I’ve known quite a few women who are very good in this field. Also, any management role benefits from the ability to understand and influence the emotions of others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Ah, you’re right, Sales is a great profession for people who can read others well – they find a way to “give them what they need.”

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “women don’t categorize men, men do that to themselves.”

    But they do work in a pre-set and specific order going downward that happens to coincide with the male hierarchy?

    Coincidence?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But they do work in a pre-set and specific order going downward that happens to coincide with the male hierarchy?

      Coincidence?

      I’m not sure what you mean. As I said, I think women use self-confidence as a proxy. If a guy comes across as comfortable in his own skin, we figured he did OK in the male sweepstakes. Most women are not seeking the guy at the top of the pyramid – they’re trying to find a compatible mate with a range of experiences. That includes disappointment or failure, btw – as evidenced by women being turned on by vulnerability.

  • Lokland

    ” and this guy is maybe 5’5″ and actually a few inches shorter than her. Let’s just say it is clear he was uncomfortable.”

    And that was a bullet in the forehead of my day.

  • Lokland

    “Agreed, so I’m wondering why you used that word in responding to Mireille.”

    rtuh….buth….tuth,,,,,bruth,,,,,,truth

    If you want a perfect example of exactly how not to sound to send men running you don’t even have to leave your virtual living room.

    Its that bad.

  • Lokland

    how to,

    not
    how not to

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    In all examples, the alpha cad is always the first mistake followed by the beta male.

    Its never beta to alpha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In all examples, the alpha cad is always the first mistake followed by the beta male.

      Its never beta to alpha.

      Alphas try harder.

  • Tomato

    “ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.”

    It all boils down to insecurity.

  • Mireille

    @Lokland,

    Not necessarily; if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy? Is someone dumping Zuckerberg for Gates? If. A guy is unable to provide for potential kids (financially, proper involvement in child rearing, stable environment…) then he falls at the bottom period. If you can’t get your GF a candy bar on valentines, you prolly won’t be buying a diaper when baby is here. This is the only hierarchy that is worth applying to men, the difference between those who want to commit and those who don’t. The rest is fluff imo. You’ll notice that in Susan’s example, the guy with the conservative job, finance, won in the end. I think men establish those categories in order to reach a niche of the sexual market, and women pick from them. We just follow your lead on that one, however when you add the fact that women can provide for themselves, they simply bypass the categories below them and of course men falling below the bar feel it.

  • Sassy6519

    Happy birthday Anacaona! :D

  • Abbot

    “It all boils down to insecurity.”

    If that is true, is it bad for women? What possible ways could men get come up with to get around this “insecurity” thingy?

  • Tomato

    Yes, if men are insecure with themselves and constantly comparing and challenging others then it is bad for them and bad for their relationships, therefore also bad for women. Insecurity leads to obsession, anger, jealousy, and lack of trust.

  • Mireille

    @Abbot,

    It’s bad for everybody because men tripping over some other guy activities is just excluding himself from the race. This isn’t 19th century Japan. You get multiple shots at finding happiness provided you can learn from your mistakes and others’. And women don’t get to display those feminine qualities because they get rejected on only one criteria when it takes considerably much more than that to keep a relationship alive. If you feel insecure about your wallet, your looks or agreability, your domestic skills…etc then work on it and make yourself the most attractive you can be and put yourself out there for people to see it and you’ll find someone. It works for men and women. There is no point in wallowing in the company of ghosts, this is the realm of the dead.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Tomato

    Yes, if men are insecure with themselves and constantly comparing and challenging others then it is bad for them and bad for their relationships, therefore also bad for women. Insecurity leads to obsession, anger, jealousy, and lack of trust.

    Very true. The funny thing is that “Alphas” are not immune to this either. Their insecurities don’t stem from feeling inferior to exes, however. It mostly stems from worrying about whether or not their women will cheat on them with other guys or leave them for other guys. It only takes a few guys flirting with an “Alpha’s” woman to trigger it. I’ve never experienced a guy feeling inferior to my exes, since I continually date men of equal or greater value to my exes, but I sure as hell have been on the wrong side of more than a few guys who worried that I was one wrong step away from hopping on another man’s package.

    I understand that “mate guarding” is a natural instinct in men, but it’s a problem when the instinct is all consuming and overpowering. There is simply no convincing a guy that you won’t cheat on him when his insecurity creates a lack of trust. It’s the ultimate sabotage.

  • Abbot

    “Insecurity leads to obsession, anger, jealousy, and lack of trust.”

    In summary, discomfort.

    Then it behooves a man to merely avoid women who, per their prior behaviors, causes him to feel uncomfortable. Certainly, this is not difficult.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    That’s not to say that in any way compares in magnitude.

    Tortured comparison to begin with. Not to mention the explanation thereof. Thomas Paine would definitely not approve.

  • Tomato

    No, it behooves a man to build his self-confidence, lest he drive away perfectly good mates because of his insecurities. Self-confidence is important not just for relationships, but for careers and life in general.

  • Abbot

    “it behooves a man to build his self-confidence”

    In other words –

    Rather than take the easy way out and surround himself with broods of women appropriate to his nature, he should adjust himself for the benefit of prolifically “experienced” women.

    Now, isn’t that special?

  • Josie88

    @ Tomato

    I agree with you. I read a few post back, and someone commented that he would prefer a hot girl with a higher number (since hot girls get approached more) than an average girl with a high number because he would rather be a beta guy chosen among the alpha to be with her than just another guy in the average girl’s bed.

    When it comes to virgin, there is no competition. Thus, a man who is bad in bed can never be compared to her other lovers because she got none.

    I also agree with you when it comes to child rearing. The court usually award the children to the primary caretaker, and many men leaves the child rearing to their wives. Yet they are shock when it comes to who gets custody.

    This makes me think about the conversation I had with my Uncle, when I asked him why he rejected my 55 year old friend for being too old.

    I told him that he might be a little bit too old to have children and so it is best to date post-menopause women.

    He told me that if he did get a young girl pregnant, she would do the child rearing. So no, he doesn’t think he is too old to have children. Besides, he told me that the thought of getting them pregnant means that he is still a man.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Again, virtually all men are going to have insecurities. If you want someone that has absolutely no insecurites, go date Linux.

  • Escoffier

    Funny how a man knowing what he wants and sticking to it, in the face of massive contrary cultural pressure–direct and indirect, personal and impersonal–now counts in some minds as “insecure” when, according to the dictionary definition, the real meaning would be closer to the exact opposite.

    I suppose this is a great example of what the manosphere calls a “re-frame.” Orwell called it “newspeak.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @escoffier

      Funny how a man knowing what he wants and sticking to it, in the face of massive contrary cultural pressure–direct and indirect, personal and impersonal–now counts in some minds as “insecure”

      I don’t think that’s what is being said. No one is disputing the validity of any man deciding what N he prefers, including zero. I’ve never seen a female HUS commenter call a man insecure for wanting a woman without a sexual history. What is being discussed here is the idea that there is a distinction between prior sexual partners, and that more dominant sexual partners are a red flag, while less dominant sexual partners might not be. It’s the old alpha/beta bugaboo.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Alphas try harder.”

    So, when trying to meet over one thousand women in the span of three years.
    The reason most of those women went to the alpha first and then me was not because he was hotter but because he put in more effort.

    Bullshit.

    Why can’t a women say the jock was hotter and she chose to fuck him first to see if it would work and when it did she went to plan B.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, when trying to meet over one thousand women in the span of three years.
      The reason most of those women went to the alpha first and then me was not because he was hotter but because he put in more effort.

      Bullshit.

      I can’t speak to your personal experience, but in general I think it’s fair to say that more dominant males approach more women and take more risks than less dominant males.

      BTW, alpha is not a synonym for good looking, nor is beta a synonym for less attractive.

      As for the claim that attractive men attract more women than unattractive men, and have an easier time getting sex: DUH

  • Lokland

    @Mireille

    “if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy? if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy?”

    You seem to not fully comprehend what we are talking about.
    We are not discussing a woman going from a provider to alpha but alpha to provider.

    Feel free to argue that point. There are some in the manosphere who will take the bait but at this point your talking in an empty room.

    The rest of us are discussing an entirely different topic.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That’s some serious love you’re getting from your wife. You are a lucky man.”

    Though I realize you intended this as some form of a compliment it is an insult.

    There is no luck involved.

    What I described is actually
    a) expected if any woman wants a relationship
    b) not nearly sufficient to ensure a relationship

    Its actually less than what I deserve as I expect and get significantly more.
    Calling me lucky basically says I’m lucky to be getting what I have which is in and of itself (based on that description) not much.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Calling me lucky basically says I’m lucky to be getting what I have which is in and of itself (based on that description) not much.

      OK, have it your way.

      Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

  • Lokland

    “You’ll notice that in Susan’s example, the guy with the conservative job, finance, won in the end.”

    I don’t want to personally discuss Susan’s past.
    I will be sticking to abstract examples.

  • Lokland

    “f you feel insecure about your wallet, your looks or agreability, your domestic skills…etc then work on it and make yourself the most attractive you can be and put yourself out there for people to see it and you’ll find someone.”

    Excellent. So to cure insecurity about height my options are magic or kill all the tall people correct?

  • Tomato

    Quit twisting my words. If a man would rather marry a woman who has a large N with “losers” instead of a woman with a small N with “winners”, then it has nothing to do with his “convictions” and everything to do with insecurity.

  • Lokland

    On insecurity.

    Feature not a bug (for me not the woman).

    ———

    If a woman fucks a jock and then turns around to try and date me there is a meaning there.

    She chose the good genes and then turned around for the provider. If the pill had not been present she would either be pregnant or a single mom.

    One would be cuckolding the other would be basically saying that if I wanted kids I had to raise another guys kids.

    Though this is not applicable today my instincts and emotions have evolved to respond to this situation.

    ——-

    My insecurity keeps me from raising another mans brat. Which is a good thing because I’d probably kill it first.

    —–

    Any woman can feel free to insult my insecurity about not wanting to raise another mans child. I agree, in this case, I will treat it the same way I would flying a plywood airplane while circumnavigating the globe.

    I’ll of course be nice enough to refrain from calling that woman a cuckolding bitch (honest or dishonest).

  • Mike C

    Agreed, so I’m wondering why you used that word in responding to Mireille.

    See her comment that I was responding to. Given your question, I can only assume you must have missed it.

    Anyways, tit for tat and all that. I simply copied her phraseology verbatim and substituted “bitch” in place of “loser” and “weaknesses”.

  • Abbot

    “If a man would rather marry a woman who has a large N with “losers” instead of a woman with a small N with “winners”, then it has nothing to do with his “convictions” and everything to do with insecurity.”

    Wrong. Its unnecessary foolishness. In a world teeming with women where men don’t need to strain themselves with such gut wrenching thoughts, any man who voluntarily subjects himself to it is a fool.

  • Tomato

    Consider this gender-reversed analogy (although what’s good for the goose is rarely good for the gander in this neck of the woods):

    A young woman lacks self-confidence to the point that she is convinced that any man she dates will eventually cheat on her. Because of this insecurity, she obsesses over the man’s past, she is cold to any woman that man interacts with, she monitors his email and phone constantly, she has jealous fits when he doesn’t call, she sets rules on where he can go and who he can see, etc.

    Would anyone honestly argue that the guy is the problem, not the woman? Should she not bother changing herself but instead dump all the men she dates until she finds one that somehow doesn’t make her feel insecure?

  • JP

    “OtC, it’s the worst-case scenarios that keep people up at night. What if the husband dies? Or is so severely disabled that he cannot work?”

    This is why you get disability insurance and then fight the insurance company when they try to cut you off.

    Considering that I litigate this for a living, I know what I’m talking about.

    I didn’t even realize that disability existed until I took this job.

  • Abbot

    “A young woman lacks self-confidence to the point that she is convinced that any man she dates will eventually cheat on her. Because of this insecurity, she obsesses over the man’s past…”

    Men do not obsess over a woman’s past. Avoiding certain for commitment is NOT an obsession. It is NOT about cheating. It is merely about DISCOMFORT. Men with confidence are selective. It is ONLY the subject of a woman’s sexual past that gets women in a twist. Now, why is that?

  • Tomato

    The higher the number of sexual partners, the higher the likelihood of infidelity in both men and women. Based on that, the woman with the lower N with alphas is the better bet against cuckolding than the woman with the higher N with betas. A preference for the latter has nothing to do with preventing cuckolding, but instead on not getting “second place” to the alpha.

  • Sassy6519

    It definitely behooves men to maximize their SMV/MMV. Doing so does require being brutally honest with oneself, in order to identify inadequacies.

    If you have a gut/beer belly, lose it. Don’t have a pot belly and wonder why women aren’t breaking down your door to get to you. Hit the gym.

    If you have shitty style, improve it. There are literally TONS of websites dedicated to male fashion. Looking like a slob/dejected frat boy for the rest of your life is not attractive. Don’t be afraid to take fashion risks. Update your style. If you haven’t bought new articles of clothing in the last 6-months to a year, you need to do so. Buy clothes that accent whatever attributes are the most attractive about you. Don’t think that just because women are not supposedly as visual as men that you can slack on it and get the women that you want. Put in effort, even if it seems like too much work. Suck it up and do it.

    I’ve had a hypothesis about this for awhile now, but I’ve finally decided to throw it out there. Here goes nothing.

    Women have been granted the chance to be more choosy over the most recent decades due to the sexual revolution, feminism, economic prosperity, and other cultural factors. In the distant past, most women did not have a choice in the men that they married. Many women married men for merely financial security, actual attraction be damned. Many women were also involved in arranged marriages, primarily once again for financial security. Most women in the past simply did not have the option to marry for love/attraction, since society encouraged young women to marry older financially established males. Overall, women did not have the power to demand more or reasonably expect more out of their men. They got married, they had children, and they kept the home fires burning, love/attraction/happiness be damned.

    In our current society, however, women have been given the option/power of choice. They no longer have to abide by societal pressures to get married early, or engage in arranged marriages. Their dating prospects are not limited to filtering for men solely on the capacity for economic security. They can actually pursue what they want.

    Now, I’ve always had a qualm with the idea that women don’t care about male looks. I don’t think that statement is true. What I do believe is that women, in the past, were pressured (sometimes even forced) by society to marry men for their economic capacity primarily, not looks. Women were not able to support themselves financially otherwise. In a sense, their choices were made for them, not by them. In a sense, women chose providers not because they wanted to necessarily, but because they had to for survival. Perhaps the women who were able to reproduce the most successfully were the women who had the dispositions to reproduce with men regardless of their physical/sexual attraction to them, or they chose the cuckold route. These decisions were made out of necessity instead of desire, in my opinion.

    Now that women have economic power, and the US is a relatively safe place, they no longer need to depend on men for financial security. They, instead, can go after men for different reasons. What I’ve noticed is that many young women these days, myself included, go after men that they are physically attracted to, in addition to other traits such as confidence, wealth, education, etc. Adding the attraction/looks filter to the male population weeds out a considerable amount of men. I’ve spoken a few times about the fact that I only find about 25%-30% of the male population attractive. Honestly, nothing is stopping me from only pursuing men that I am genuinely attracted to, which leaves about 70%-75% of the male population in the dust.

    Let’s take this a step further. Many men in this country, in a sense, have experienced more difficulty in getting and keeping women for the long term in comparison to their forefathers. Their forefathers had better odds of getting and keeping women around because they had what women needed, economic resources. In my opinion, the women didn’t have the power to leave such relationships (not to mention that divorce was illegal/shamed for a long time). Finding and keeping mates for men, in the past, was easier because the women didn’t have the option of pursuing better. Most men today may be having a hard time in the dating game because they can’t pass most women’s thresholds for physical/sexual attractiveness. That parameter was not so much of a factor a long time ago. Now it is, and it weeds out most men for most women.

    With that being said, there are a lot of resources available to men to improve themselves. If they aren’t happy with their current dating situations, they can improve themselves. Not all things can be improved however without drastic measures sometimes. Short men are at a disadvantage. I understand this. My advice to short me would be to either focus on improving other aspects of themselves to make up for their deficits, or take drastic measures (Ex: Wear lifts in their shoes, get leg lengthening surgical procedures). Either way, maximizing their overall SMV/MMV is imperative for both males and females in order to attract people that they want. With that being said, we can’t all be #1. I do believe that natural hierarchies exist for both sexes. If one is not satisfied with his/her rank, do something to change it. Don’t just sulk/complain about how life isn’t fair. Life, indeed, is not fair (survival of the fittest and all that jazz). My best advice for both sexes is to put in effort to maximize their SMVs/MMVs to the highest maintainable level, and select a mate following their improvements.

  • Escoffier

    I have to scratch my head at the women demanding a “rational” explanation for (most) men’s desire for a low-N girl, and the attempts by some to provide that explanation. Not that I am against rational explanations, I love them, so by all means, answer as best you can.

    But the demand for justification is just another attempt to “re-frame.” The implicit foundation is, “This want of yours is irrational and unjust unless you can come up with a reason I will accept.” And, of course, most such reasons are not accepted. Which is the whole point, to “re-frame” high(er) N as “normal” and not something subject to legitimate objection.

    Since most here believe in EvPsych explanations of human sexuality, then we must accept the possibility (maybe even the fact) that men’s desire for low-N is hard-wired and innate and not consciously chosen. It may in the final analysis be rational but that is wholly independent of its presence and power in the first place. It’s just something that men innately “feel.” They don’t need a rational justification to act on that feeling, and indeed many may never think it through at all. This fact alone would not obviate the legitimacy of the feeling.

    Flip the script: according to EvPsych, women prefer dominant men who are physically fit and strong. This is to help them defend themselves against rival tribes, saber-tooth tigers and the like. But we no longer face such threats. Hence the preference for these traits is today “irrational.” Hence all you gals who get naturally turned on by hunks are not merely irrational but insecure. What, it’s 2013–can’t you fend for yourselves after 50 years of feminism, or do you need a big, strong man to do it for you?

    See how that works?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hence all you gals who get naturally turned on by hunks are not merely irrational but insecure. What, it’s 2013–can’t you fend for yourselves after 50 years of feminism, or do you need a big, strong man to do it for you?

      Actually, women in societies with more sex equality and less violence prefer less masculine men. Evo psych is never more than part of the puzzle – environment always counts.

  • Tomato

    JP, does disability insurance cover all costs for the family and continue to pay out until death? I am not familiar with this area. In other words, does there come a point when the wife must start working to make ends meet?

  • Abbot

    “The higher the number of sexual partners, the higher the likelihood of infidelity”

    That may be the main reason women avoid such men. Men avoid such women for commitment because it feels right to do so. Men proudly and securely place higher value on women with low N and today more than ever before. Women rarely value men in this way and that is their CHOICE. Since it is their choice, it is a single standard that women and men prioritize differently. Of all the criteria that men use to select a woman, why is sexual past the ONLY one that is such a nasty ass hang up for women? Why do they hate that particular criteria so much?

    .

  • OffTheCuff

    Great writing, Sassy!

    Unfortunately you missed something – given the choice of doing all that stuff, it’s a lot easier to say “forget it, I’ll just set my sights a bit lower and not commit”.

    Oh, and all Mirielle’s stuff is so smarmy and typical of what I read everywhere. Good luck with that attitude.

  • OffTheCuff

    Esco: “Hence all you gals who get naturally turned on by hunks are not merely irrational but insecure. What, it’s 2013–can’t you fend for yourselves after 50 years of feminism, or do you need a big, strong man to do it for you?”

    NOW you’re getting it, Esco!

  • SayWhaat

    I have to scratch my head at the women demanding a “rational” explanation for (most) men’s denial of a low-N girl, and the attempts by some to provide that explanation. Not that I am against rational explanations, I love them, so by all means, answer as best you can.

    That’s not what is being discussed.

    All of the female commenters here benefit if men decide to date women with low N.

    The issue is when those same guys hold that low N against us. I mean, if my ex becomes a famous opera star and my next boyfriend gets intimidated by that and accuses me of banging alphas, I wouldn’t know what to say to him. Self-confidence comes from within.

  • Abbot

    “to “re-frame” high(er) N as “normal” and not something subject to legitimate objection.”

    But why? Why is this singular subject such a major thorn for women, er promiscuous women?

    They just don’t get it?
    They do get it but don’t care?
    Its deeply personal and only their business?
    They truly believe that multi penis is part of what made the wonderful woman before you today?
    They want to bask in BC-pill recreation for a few years and since its so easy to do without challenge and so much fun why should anyone even think about it?
    There must be an acute shortage of men who don’t consider N and these women are just super pissed off about it?

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    <blockquoteThe issue is when those same guys hold that low N against us. I mean, if my ex becomes a famous opera star and my next boyfriend gets intimidated by that and accuses me of banging alphas, I wouldn't know what to say to him. Self-confidence comes from within.

    Good point. I don’t know what could be said in such a situation.

  • Escoffier

    Who holds a low-N against anyone? The most we’ve been able to establish is that some guys hold virginity against girls because they conclude that quick, easy sex won’t be possible and/or she’ll turn out to be a “clinger.”

    Sorry to say, SayWhaat, but what you identified is a danger. It could happen. Most guys will not feel great about dating a girl with a celebrity BF in her past.

  • Tomato

    You guys are tilting at windmills. Reread #458.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Abbot

    But why? Why is this singular subject such a major thorn for women, er promiscuous women?

    They just don’t get it?
    They do get it but don’t care?
    Its deeply personal and only their business?
    They truly believe that multi penis is part of what made the wonderful woman before you today?
    They want to bask in BC-pill recreation for a few years and since its so easy to do without challenge and so much fun why should anyone even think about it?
    There must be an acute shortage of men who don’t consider N and these women are just super pissed off about it?

    Why do you keep asking us? We don’t know. The women here are not promiscuous. Take your inquiries somewhere that they have a chance to be answered by someone of the promiscuous cohort. Try Jezebel or something.

  • Emily

    I’d like to cosign Sassy’s post. Maybe I’m weird, but while I find that most of the male population meets my “dominance” requirements (80%+), I also only find about 20-30% of my male peers physically attractive.

    The good news is that a bit of effort goes a long way. For example, in terms of “raw material”, IMO the average North American guy is naturally better-looking than the average British guy. But because North American guys tend to dress like total slobs, I actually find myself attracted to a larger percentage of the Brits. Even though they’re not as naturally attractive, the styling make a huge difference. (YMMV as usual.)

  • Escoffier

    Tomato, 458 is just another attempt to “re-frame.”

  • Abbot

    ” Reread #458.”

    463 put that to bed

  • SayWhaat

    Sorry to say, SayWhaat, but what you identified is a danger. It could happen. Most guys will not feel great about dating a girl with a celebrity BF in her past.

    Eh, he was a pauper while we were dating. I think I’ll be okay.

  • angelguy

    “That may be the main reason women avoid such men. Men avoid such women for commitment because it feels right to do so. Men proudly and securely place higher value on women with low N and today more than ever before. Women rarely value men in this way and that is their CHOICE. Since it is their choice, it is a single standard that women and men prioritize differently. Of all the criteria that men use to select a woman, why is sexual past the ONLY one that is such a nasty ass hang up for women? Why do they hate that particular criteria so much?”

    I think that is an accurate assessment.

    I believe commitment for men has a bigger consequence if chosen badly.

    Although, I wonder how much one can expect a lower N if the Man and woman are older. Choosing a mate in their 40’s and 50’s is much different than their 20’s and 30’s.

  • Sassy6519

    For the love of God Abbot, stop engaging in friendly fire here.

  • Abbot

    “another attempt to “re-frame.”

    Maybe the re-framers can explain why this goal is important

  • Escoffier

    Isn’t it obvious why the goal is important?

  • SayWhaat

    Tomato, 458 is just another attempt to “re-frame.”

    I disagree. If a girl has a low N with alphas, she’s likely to be of higher SMV than the girl who was promiscuous with betas, no? In which case, the guy is projecting his fear of being unable to retain a high-SMV woman that may or may not be justified.

  • INTJ

    @ Mireille, Bells

    I hear your bodies are telling you to get pregnant. I can help you with that. ;)

  • INTJ

    @ Tomato

    “ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.”

    It all boils down to insecurity.

    Hardly. I don’t appreciate being sloppy seconds or waiting on the sidelines while someone sexes up an alpha err makes a mistake. Self-respect =/= insecurity.

  • Abbot

    “Isn’t it obvious why the goal is important?”

    What is the agenda? What is ultimate goal?

  • Escoffier

    “Eh, he was a pauper while we were dating. I think I’ll be okay.”

    To the guy to whom this matters, this will not matter.

  • SayWhaat

    I disagree. If a girl has a low N with alphas, she’s likely to be of higher SMV than the girl who was promiscuous with betas, no? In which case, the guy is projecting his fear of being unable to retain a high-SMV woman that may or may not be justified.

    To clarify, if the low-N, high-SMV woman chooses the guy, it’s probably safe to say she considers him alpha as well. He is in solid company. However, if he continues to feel disconcerted about this, then this is:

    Justified: because she is >35, unmarried, and is very vocal about getting married and having kids SOON.

    Unjustified: because she is 25, unmarried, and is looking forward to settling down and starting a family.

    The former is prudent, the latter is insecure.

  • SayWhaat

    To the guy to whom this matters, this will not matter.

    *shrug* Ok.

  • Sassy6519

    To the guy to whom this matters, this will not matter.

    If this is the case, you should probably stick to dating minor/psuedo celebrity males from now on. :D

  • SayWhaat

    If this is the case, you should probably stick to dating minor/psuedo celebrity males from now on.

    Or go for neurosurgeons like my mom wants me to. :P

  • INTJ

    @ Josie88

    I believe that what Jackie is alluring to (?) is that one should have the integrity to practice what one preach? One should never feel entitled to a virgin if one have been around the block a few times?

    The thought of him settling down with a virgin after his cruel treatments of women makes my stomach turned, and he probably will find a virgin wife because he can!!!

    I hesitate to make this personal, but the converse (“preach what you practice”) applies to girls. Why are all these virgin girls willing to marry a guy who has been around the block? The double standard cuts both ways. In fact, I don’t think it’s a double standard, since guys aren’t telling women to prefer experienced guys, and girls aren’t telling guys to prefer inexperienced girls. It’s just a matter of guys preferring inexperienced girls, and girls preferring experienced guys, and thus the highest value people – who tend to have differing experience levels – tend to pair up with each other.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s just a matter of guys preferring inexperienced girls, and girls preferring experienced guys, and thus the highest value people – who tend to have differing experience levels – tend to pair up with each other.

      This is not correct. People of similar levels of sociosexuality and sexual history tend to pair off with each other.

      I’ve recently linked to research – maybe even in this thread – that shows that both men and women prefer partners of low to moderate sexual history.

  • SayWhaat

    Honestly, if a guy is bothered by a girl’s famous ex who achieved fame AFTER their relationship, he probably has no business dating her in the first place. That’s like condemning Harrison Ford’s high school girlfriend to spinsterhood! Lol.

    People grow and change. Any man or woman who can’t accept that is asking for a miserable life. :/

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    That ties in with what I’ve said in the past about male competition determining status, which is how women select men.

    What you’re saying is that if you are not a “top male,” as determined by intrasexual competition, and a woman has been with a man of higher status than you at some point, you will never feel like a winner with her.

    Not exactly. I’ll view myself as an intrasexual status winner over the hipster bass player, but I’ll still be insulted if the girl went for one in her past.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll view myself as an intrasexual status winner over the hipster bass player, but I’ll still be insulted if the girl went for one in her past.

      It’s not a question of how you view yourself. Whether it disgusts you or not, hipster bass players enjoy considerable status within their own social circles, and they do well with women. Your being insulted is just you projecting your own loathing for hipsters, it does not reflect how women feel about them.

  • SayWhaat

    What is being discussed here is the idea that there is a distinction between prior sexual partners, and that more dominant sexual partners are a red flag, while less dominant sexual partners might not be. It’s the old alpha/beta bugaboo.

    This is just one of several reasons why I can’t extrapolate things stated here to the larger male population. This is a concern that whirrs almost exclusively throughout the ‘sphere. Go on other forums like Reddit, and you’ll witness a different tale.

  • SayWhaat

    Not exactly. I’ll view myself as an intrasexual status winner over the hipster bass player, but I’ll still be insulted if the girl went for one in her past.

    In other words, you’re the alpha insulted by her former beta lay? :P

  • Escoffier

    Susan,

    That may be what some of the commenters mean but not all, and certainly not the most vocal (one), who take(s) a much broader view.

    But in any event, why again is one concern (high N) OK and the other (alpha past) not, and automatically the mark of “insecurity”?

    To get personal again, my Grace Kelly/Christy Turlington grad school GF had at least one alpha star in her past, a French intellectual who I gather was not especially nice to her, in addition to living in another country, which propelled the break-up. Like I have said before, I never asked her for any details but I was able to glean a little info here and there and my conclusion was that I was, at best, second best. Good enough for now, the best available at the moment, etc., but not choiceworthy for my own sake. This was one (but hardly the only) reason why “it didn’t work out.”

    Now, Mirelle can call me “insecure.” (Go ahead, I can take it!) But in my own mind, I was being rational. This will serve as response to SayWhaat as well: every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.” The women here tend to endorse this principle in the abstract but rebel at specific examples and revert back to calling men “insecure.”

    Since men also know in our bones (whether we have heard the terminology or not) that women are hypergamous, a past lover/BF of significantly higher status than ourselves is a red flag that makes us feel “settled for” and “second best”. (At best.) I think there is an element of rationality to this feeling, but even if you don’t, surely you can see that if the feeling persists (as it often does), then the rational thing for the guy to do is move on and look elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.”

      Of course he does, and women are no different. We all want to hear “I’ve never felt this way before.” Where I think you’re getting off track is in the assumption that you decide who her number one is, based on what you know about her past partners.

      Did Christy Turlington tell you that you were her #1 of all time? If you concluded this was untrue, why did you? If she did not claim it, then you were right to realize it was a bad match, one where she would not fall head over heels for you.

      Why not just believe a woman when she tells you that you are her #1? Why do you feel that it’s appropriate for you to state that you couldn’t possibly be #1 if her past included some celebrity or high status guy?

      Just as men get to decide what they want in a partner, so do women. You don’t get to tell us who is alpha, who is beta, who is sexy, who is a provider, who we really want. We decide that. If you don’t believe us, that’s on you. If you can’t tell whether your fiancee is marrying you because she’s out of options and you’re a short, unappealing guy with a decent salary, that’s on you (as per Mike C’s example). That guy is an idiot, he’s wearing a sign on his back that says “kick me.”

  • Tomato

    “I can’t speak to your personal experience, but in general I think it’s fair to say that more dominant males approach more women and take more risks than less dominant males.”

    Bingo. Also, secure men approach more women and take more risks than insecure men.

    “every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.””

    Massive generalization aside, is this a male endorsement for hypergamy?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Massive generalization aside, is this a male endorsement for hypergamy?

      Brilliant, Tomato! I never thought of that!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.”

    In most ways/aspects/qualities, or in all ways/aspects/qualities?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    A man being able to hit on women frequently and easily does not indicate no insecurities. Neither does Alpha mean no insecurity.

    I just…have no words to explain how silly that is.

  • Tomato

    “In most ways/aspects/qualities, or in all ways/aspects/qualities?”

    And now I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering – “Well, past bf 1 was a lawyer but he was fat, and past bf 2 was a rock star but a cheater, and past bf 3 was a successful small business owner but he was controlling. So that makes me…”

  • Abbot

    “the rational thing for the guy to do is move on and look elsewhere.”

    That is exactly the sort of rationality (er, insecurity) that injects bone-shaking fear into women seeking a dedicated commitment.

  • Angelguy

    I think I would be more insecure if the woman I was dating had any connection to past boyfriends, via Facebook.
    Even if they weren’t sleeping together anymore.

  • SayWhaat

    every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.”

    In most ways/aspects/qualities, or in all ways/aspects/qualities?

    And every guy should know that every woman has a different formula for attraction. If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex, even if her #1 has a less well-defined body.

    We have been over this many times before, people .

  • SayWhaat

    And now I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering – “Well, past bf 1 was a lawyer but he was fat, and past bf 2 was a rock star but a cheater, and past bf 3 was a successful small business owner but he was controlling. So that makes me…”

    Just another asshole, I guess. Lol.

  • Abbot

    “I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering…”

    Armed with this (gasp!) understanding, an entire society of women will be picturing themselves not engaging in behaviors that would lead to such a checklist….

  • Abbot

    “If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex…”

    Then the ex was just a vagstuffer? That should be fine with good ol numero uno. Yep.

  • Abbot

    “connection to past boyfriends, via Facebook”

    Who can all plainly see who the chump is. Ah, the good ol USA

    .

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ SW

    And every guy should know that every woman has a different formula for attraction. If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex, even if her #1 has a less well-defined body.

    We have been over this many times before, people .

    Yes, and we have also gone over how attraction triggers are malleable and how they change over time.
    So?
    Men do not have Women-Weighting-Formula Radars. If I am on a date, in a relationship, hell, even MARRIED to you, I do not and cannot know how you are weighting each of my individual attributes.
    Therefore investigating your past and seeing what you have liked in the past, and your explanations for it, are an important part of the filtering process.
    Because we don’t know how you feel, we don’t know how you weight, we don’t know how you stack up or we stack up.
    That’s filtering.
    It seems the women-folk here would like to apply a “she’s in a relationship with you, therefore she obviously likes you” explanation, which is trying to argue that men should not be filtering.

    That is, of course, separate from what I initially discussed, which is then men do not want to feel like losers when with their SOs.

    You said earlier that you can’t help the way we perceive things. That’s ridiculous. You can easily change the way other people perceive you. That’s called making an impression, putting your best foot forward, etc.

    Just saying, “oh well, I can’t help it,” sounds to male folk like you are giving up, which means you just don’t want to make your man feel like a winner. And then the “insecure” talk sounds like shaming because you don’t want to or can’t make your man feel like a winner.

    I am not saying you are a bad girlfriend, but that’s how this talk is probably being interprted in male minds, which is why it is being interpreted as hostile.

    Tomato can call me insecure until the cows come home, I don’t care. Ain’t gonna change a thing.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think that it can be hard for anyone to personally admit that you’re not all that, especially in terms of looks. A plain/average girl can fool themselves into thinking that they are actually the cute/pretty girl because of self-denial.
    Interesting. What I used to do is comparing myself to the celebrities I found visually appealing. Since I can count with one hand the ones I find really beautiful it didn’t really hurt me that much because everyone else is just in an spectrum of cute. No celebrity looks like Nefertiti’s bust to use an example. I did knew I wouldn’t hold a candle next to either of them but I was never attracted to the top guys in that way. Maybe I’m weird like that.

    In all examples, the alpha cad is always the first mistake followed by the beta male.
    Its never beta to alpha.

    I differ I do know some Alpha mistakes. Problem is that a man can consider another guy an Alpha for many reasons: He is earning more money than him, or has had more women or better sense of fashion or has more comic books (true story that one Nerds has hierarchies too).
    I think the solution might be the woman assure him that those exes don’t hold a candle to him and he is better in every other way, every-time the subject comes out. How does that sound the the guys?

    I understand that “mate guarding” is a natural instinct in men, but it’s a problem when the instinct is all consuming and overpowering. There is simply no convincing a guy that you won’t cheat on him when his insecurity creates a lack of trust. It’s the ultimate sabotage.
    IME the level of mate guarding is inversely proportional to the amount of women that had cheated with their boyfriends with him or his friends. If he knows a lot of women that look faithful and nice and are screwing behind their SO’s back they certainly can’t tell if theirs is not playing the same role.
    Had I mentioned that there is A TON of reasons not to date Cads? This is another one. They will not trust you because they had experience, personal or/and secondhanded with women that don’t hesitate in the sights of an attractive man and since they have no idea how to tell they rather distrust any XX within their reach, YMMV.

    Excellent. So to cure insecurity about height my options are magic or kill all the tall people correct?
    Always the extremist how about targeting women that are significantly shorter than you? Women on average are shorter than men so looking for a woman that is shorter than you is easier than the other way around.

  • Angelguy

    “Who can all plainly see who the chump is. Ah, the good ol USA”

    @Abbot

    Chump is right.
    Facebook is a primary tool in dating these days.
    It is difficult to date women without them using FB as a communication device.
    One can develop an inferiority complex over it, particularly if past boyfriends are on a friends list.

  • Angelguy

    “Therefore investigating your past and seeing what you have liked in the past, and your explanations for it, are an important part of the filtering process.
    Because we don’t know how you feel, we don’t know how you weight, we don’t know how you stack up or we stack up.
    That’s filtering.
    It seems the women-folk here would like to apply a “she’s in a relationship with you, therefore she obviously likes you” explanation, which is trying to argue that men should not be filtering.”

    I notice that most women who are in relationships a very long time, 10 years +, will find any reason to complain about their SO.
    One needs to really figure out if their complaints are justified points, or general vents about being in a relationship.

    No matter how good you are, Familiarity breeds contempt.

  • SayWhaat

    You said earlier that you can’t help the way we perceive things. That’s ridiculous. You can easily change the way other people perceive you. That’s called making an impression, putting your best foot forward, etc.

    Just saying, “oh well, I can’t help it,” sounds to male folk like you are giving up, which means you just don’t want to make your man feel like a winner. And then the “insecure” talk sounds like shaming because you don’t want to or can’t make your man feel like a winner.

    *sigh* This is precisely what I mean about perception.

    I can’t help it if a guy is threatened by an ex that he perceived to be alpha. For me, that ex was beta, and I am at peace with the congruence of my decisions.

    If the guy can’t deal with that, then we are each better served by dating other people.

  • Tomato

    The strawman brigade is in full force today, I see.

  • Mike C

    It definitely behooves men to maximize their SMV/MMV. Doing so does require being brutally honest with oneself, in order to identify inadequacies.

    Absolutely! And I’ll add that maximization process also involves optimization of where it is best to spend energy and efforts improving. The low-hanging fruit for just about every guy is working out regularly and simply developing a more fit, lean body. Dressing better is another easy one, but you may have to consult someone in the know.

    Women have been granted the chance to be more choosy over the most recent decades due to the sexual revolution, feminism, economic prosperity, and other cultural factors. In the distant past, most women did not have a choice in the men that they married. Many women married men for merely financial security, actual attraction be damned. Many women were also involved in arranged marriages, primarily once again for financial security. Most women in the past simply did not have the option to marry for love/attraction, since society encouraged young women to marry older financially established males. Overall, women did not have the power to demand more or reasonably expect more out of their men. They got married, they had children, and they kept the home fires burning, love/attraction/happiness be damned.

    FWIW, I’m pretty much in complete agreement with you, and unlike many I don’t wax nostalgic for the “good old days”. But that choosiness is a double-edged sword with some negative consequences as well.

    First, for many women, their level of choosiness is at a mismatch with their actual SMV. I was visiting my Mom in the skilled nursing facility and a friend of hers was there. Her friend has a single daughter…I think she was 35ish, and I seem to recall she was highly educated and a solid earning professional. Anyways, my Mom and her friend are both talking about how both their daughters (my sister) are mid 30s single women. I resisted the temptation to launch into a lecture/diatribe, but they were insistent on showing me a picture of the friend’s daughter to get my opinion on her attractiveness as a guy of similar age. Actually, she was a pretty woman but not stunning by any means. At some point in the conversation, it comes up that the daughter of my Mom’s friend repeats the mantra “I am not going to settle” in response to her single status. On one level, I suppose it is good that she isn’t going to settle for some guy she is going to divorce 3-7 years later, but I suspect her position is pretty common where she is successful and somewhat attractive but probably has insanely unrealistic expecations of the caliber of guy she can actually land.

    The second negative aspect of choosiness is the “pump and dump” phenomenon, or women making “mistakes” or getting “burned”. The simple truth is any man who tilts somewhat unrestricted is going to be open to having sex with a woman a few points lower that he would never consider as girlfriend or wife material. So when this happens, it is usually because a woman is being more choosy than her SMV really allows for.

    So I really have no issues whatsoever with female “choosiness” as long as their is full ownership of both the positive and negative aspects of that choosiness and not trying to shift the negative aspects of that choosiness on to men such as 35 year old women trying to shame a 35 year old man for dating the 25 year old. In that case, the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.

    Now, I’ve always had a qualm with the idea that women don’t care about male looks. I don’t think that statement is true.

    Well…I think what happens here is people tend to conflate/mix up it mattering less than female looks with not mattering at all. There was a study that looked at this that showed male looks matter, especially for shorter-term relationships. My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.

    Now that women have economic power, and the US is a relatively safe place, they no longer need to depend on men for financial security.

    This is very true at the MICRO level. However, one thing I think most women fail to full appreciate is just how necessary men still are to provide certain societal/economic functions at the MACRO level. I’ve gone hunting for the column, but I cannot find it, but I believe Peggy Noonan wrote something about the importance of men right after 9/11. For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota. Men do most of the basic foundational infrastructure work that even allows for a society where women can be financially secure doing social work and other desk work. Without that male work, the whole thing would come crumbling down.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota. Men do most of the basic foundational infrastructure work that even allows for a society where women can be financially secure doing social work and other desk work.

      True, but I can’t see how that would impact mating decisions. Women don’t need to marry those men, just to provide the taxpayer dollars that pay them.

      Women do not need men to provide financially for them any longer. That’s the main reason that the beta bucks meme makes zero sense.

  • INTJ

    @ ADBG

    A man being able to hit on women frequently and easily does not indicate no insecurities. Neither does Alpha mean no insecurity.

    I just…have no words to explain how silly that is.

    Exactly. Many such men have nothing to lose – the epitome of insecurity.

  • INTJ

    @ Tomato

    And now I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering – “Well, past bf 1 was a lawyer but he was fat, and past bf 2 was a rock star but a cheater, and past bf 3 was a successful small business owner but he was controlling. So that makes me…”

    That makes me think poorly of her for going for past bf 2… (Past bfs 1 and 3 are fine).

  • Angelguy

    “So I really have no issues whatsoever with female “choosiness” as long as their is full ownership of both the positive and negative aspects of that choosiness and not trying to shift the negative aspects of that choosiness on to men such as 35 year old women trying to shame a 35 year old man for dating the 25 year old. In that case, the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.”

    I fully agree on this.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    And every guy should know that every woman has a different formula for attraction. If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex, even if her #1 has a less well-defined body.

    Then why the fuck did she go for the dumb hunky guy in the first place? That’s the bottom line for me. I want to be valued for what I am – from day one. No sloppy seconds. I can understand if she had relationships with guys like me in the past, but those relationships didn’t work out. Unlike others, I would even be okay with them being higher value than me – in the attributes that I’m good at (i.e. smarter, more loyal, etc.) – I don’t need to be number one – just see that she clearly values people like me, rather than forcing us to wait for sloppy seconds after she’s done “experimenting” and “finding herself” with asshats.

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    Always the extremist how about targeting women that are significantly shorter than you? Women on average are shorter than men so looking for a woman that is shorter than you is easier than the other way around.

    Actually from what I’ve observed, if anything it’s the short women who’re most likely to want 6’+ guys.

  • Kiwi

    “And every guy should know that every woman has a different formula for attraction. If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex, even if her #1 has a less well-defined body.”

    “Then why the fuck did she go for the dumb hunky guy in the first place? That’s the bottom line for me. I want to be valued for what I am – from day one. No sloppy seconds. I can understand if she had relationships with guys like me in the past, but those relationships didn’t work out. Unlike others, I would even be okay with them being higher value than me – in the attributes that I’m good at (i.e. smarter, more loyal, etc.) – I don’t need to be number one – just see that she clearly values people like me, rather than forcing us to wait for sloppy seconds after she’s done “experimenting” and “finding herself” with asshats.”

    First off, just because a guy may be hunky and not too smart does not mean he’s an “asshat”. People are more than just their IQ levels. And women and men date men and women for a wider and more subtle variety of reasons than just intelligence alone or body alone.

    Maybe he was the only guy showing her attention at the time? Maybe he had other qualities besides just his body that she liked. Maybe she also like his body (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!). Maybe she was incredibly lonely and he helped fill her heart with joy at a particular joyless time in life. Maybe she enjoyed his company.

    Its almost as if you expect your future girlfriend to have only dated clones of yourself in the past and that makes zero sense.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.
    I agree with that I had a couple of really hot model friends that were more after a nice inviting smile and a nice guy behaviour than solid looks and they were offered a lot of things for their looks by hot but caddish men and not so hot but wealthy guys. No interest at all. In fact one of them even married a guy lower in looks and economy because he had a reputation of faithfulness and hard working. They seem to be very happy now with two kids. ;)

    For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota.
    Don’t forget trashpickers, plumbers and radioactive waste workers. Not a lot of women jockeying to get in those positions and not gender quotas either.

  • Kiwi

    “the rational thing for the guy to do is move on and look elsewhere.”

    “That is exactly the sort of rationality (er, insecurity) that injects bone-shaking fear into women seeking a dedicated commitment.”

    Not really. I think most of us would prefer he move than spend the rest of his life making us miserable with his insecurities and brooding over our past boyfriends that he probably never even met.

    Jesus!

  • Sassy6519

    Then why the fuck did she go for the dumb hunky guy in the first place? That’s the bottom line for me. I want to be valued for what I am – from day one. No sloppy seconds. I can understand if she had relationships with guys like me in the past, but those relationships didn’t work out. Unlike others, I would even be okay with them being higher value than me – in the attributes that I’m good at (i.e. smarter, more loyal, etc.) – I don’t need to be number one – just see that she clearly values people like me, rather than forcing us to wait for sloppy seconds after she’s done “experimenting” and “finding herself” with asshats.

    This actually makes sense to me. I think where some women run into trouble is that they are either (1) not aware of what they are attracted to/really want in a partner (2) value different things over time. Both are recipes for creating the aforementioned angst. Of course there are also women who (3) attempt to get what they want, fail, then settle for men that they can obtain instead.

    These are the qualities I look for in a mate, and I only entertain advances from men with these qualities:

    -Good looks/physically attractive (I’m not ashamed to admit that I like male eye candy. So sue me).
    -Intelligent (Stupidity and ignorance irritate me to no avail)
    -Financially stable/giving with his resources (What can I say? I like it when a guy spends his money on me).
    -Compatible senses of humor
    -Ambition (meaning that he is pursuing certain goals and making positive gains)
    -Trustworthy
    -Dependable (I abhor flakiness).
    -Honest
    -Adventurous

    I can’t think of one guy that I have dated who hasn’t ticked every single one of those boxes. It doesn’t mean that they were flawless. It just means that they met my core criteria. I think many women would be well served to identify what their core criteria/non-negotiable aspects are. If every guy ticks the boxes, then none of the men can be significantly different from one another.

    Its almost as if you expect your future girlfriend to have only dated clones of yourself in the past and that makes zero sense.

    That’s exactly what it appears to be.

  • Kiwi

    “My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.”

    Its the opposite actually. Tall, exceptionally handsome men with great bods are not high numbers in the population. A woman who holds out for these types may meet 1 or just a few per year (if lucky). When you take away the gay ones, the already taken ones, and the ones not interested in her, she is left with even fewer throughout a life time.

    Her N will be low.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Actually from what I’ve observed, if anything it’s the short women who’re most likely to want 6′+ guys.
    You got a point there. My guess is that their instinct is to hoard the tallest genes they can get to compensate for their shortness.
    How about slightly shorter than they are? I also think women of the same size of the guy might be less desperate for the tall genes.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    So I really have no issues whatsoever with female “choosiness” as long as their is full ownership of both the positive and negative aspects of that choosiness and not trying to shift the negative aspects of that choosiness on to men such as 35 year old women trying to shame a 35 year old man for dating the 25 year old. In that case, the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.

    I agree.

    Well…I think what happens here is people tend to conflate/mix up it mattering less than female looks with not mattering at all. There was a study that looked at this that showed male looks matter, especially for shorter-term relationships. My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.

    I do believe that there are women who fit those descriptions. I also think that some women break the mold, in good ways. I don’t see a problem with a restricted girl going after a man with good looks, especially if she is high SMV herself. Why shouldn’t she go after her physical male counterpart? The man doesn’t need to be her age either. A hot man is a hot man. It may be significantly harder to find a very physically attractive man with a congruent and consistent restricted nature, but it’s not impossible. That’s what I’m holding out for/looking for. Call me the unicorn hunter. :P

    This is very true at the MICRO level. However, one thing I think most women fail to full appreciate is just how necessary men still are to provide certain societal/economic functions at the MACRO level. I’ve gone hunting for the column, but I cannot find it, but I believe Peggy Noonan wrote something about the importance of men right after 9/11. For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota. Men do most of the basic foundational infrastructure work that even allows for a society where women can be financially secure doing social work and other desk work. Without that male work, the whole thing would come crumbling down.

    I agree.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, belated happy birthday!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Whoops! Partial blockquote fail.

    So I really have no issues whatsoever with female “choosiness” as long as their is full ownership of both the positive and negative aspects of that choosiness and not trying to shift the negative aspects of that choosiness on to men such as 35 year old women trying to shame a 35 year old man for dating the 25 year old. In that case, the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.

    I agree.

    Well…I think what happens here is people tend to conflate/mix up it mattering less than female looks with not mattering at all. There was a study that looked at this that showed male looks matter, especially for shorter-term relationships. My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.

    I do believe that there are women who fit those descriptions. I also think that some women break the mold, in good ways. I don’t see a problem with a restricted girl going after a man with good looks, especially if she is high SMV herself. Why shouldn’t she go after her physical male counterpart? The man doesn’t need to be her age either. A hot man is a hot man. It may be significantly harder to find a very physically attractive man with a congruent and consistent restricted nature, but it’s not impossible. That’s what I’m holding out for/looking for. Call me the unicorn hunter.

    This is very true at the MICRO level. However, one thing I think most women fail to full appreciate is just how necessary men still are to provide certain societal/economic functions at the MACRO level. I’ve gone hunting for the column, but I cannot find it, but I believe Peggy Noonan wrote something about the importance of men right after 9/11. For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota. Men do most of the basic foundational infrastructure work that even allows for a society where women can be financially secure doing social work and other desk work. Without that male work, the whole thing would come crumbling down.

    I agree.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan @Hope @Sassy
    Thank you for the birthday wishes :)

  • Kiwi

    Unrestricted women have high numbers and the number of extremely good looking men in the population is low. So there is no way a woman could be unrestricted high N holding out for the lookers alone.

    Unrestricted women have sex with the men who are available and high in percentage population wise, and they for the most part are average or at best slightly above average looking men.

    There simply are not enough stellar looking men to go around for unrestricted women to rack up their N with.

  • Abbot

    “the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.”

    That is the toughest lump for this type of woman to swallow. It really kills.

  • Tomato

    Honestly, if I had a boyfriend who wanted to know every detail about my past boyfriends in order to judge his own worthiness, and by extent my worthiness, I would run like the wind!

  • Abbot

    “There simply are not enough stellar looking men to go around for unrestricted women to rack up their N with.”

    There are as long as those men are proactive; they will pass those women around like volleyballs in play.

  • Abbot

    “most of us would prefer he move than spend the rest of his life …”

    Thus the low and declining marriage rate

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    In other news HABEMUS PAPAM! :)

  • Kiwi

    “Unemployed bio major working construction”

    He was unemployed but working? Interesting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He was unemployed but working? Interesting.

      Sorry if that was not clear, I meant unemployed in biology, his chosen field.

  • Kiwi

    “There simply are not enough stellar looking men to go around for unrestricted women to rack up their N with.”

    “There are as long as those men are proactive; they will pass those women around like volleyballs in play.”

    In which country are the most aesthetically gifted men proactive in approaching women? That too, women who are not equally as gifted as they are?

    Need to book ticket.

  • Abbot

    “In which country are the most aesthetically gifted men proactive in approaching women”

    Wherever American women are, especially if alcohol is being poured.

  • Abbot

    “Actually, women in societies with more sex equality and less violence prefer less masculine men”

    Then he is correct after all

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeL-Fn0V8iU

    .

  • Sassy6519

    In which country are the most aesthetically gifted men proactive in approaching women? That too, women who are not equally as gifted as they are?

    Need to book ticket.

    My best guess would be either in Mediterranean countries or Nordic countries. Hot pieces are often in those locales.

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    How about slightly shorter than they are? I also think women of the same size of the guy might be less desperate for the tall genes.

    Yup. It’s an added bonus for me that I tend to be most attracted to women around my height (I’m 5’5″).

  • SayWhaat

    Happy Birthday, Ana!!

  • Escoffier

    I guess I have to take this part back:

    “every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.” The women here tend to endorse this principle in the abstract

    Not even in the abstract any more, eh?

  • SayWhaat

    First off, just because a guy may be hunky and not too smart does not mean he’s an “asshat”. People are more than just their IQ levels. And women and men date men and women for a wider and more subtle variety of reasons than just intelligence alone or body alone.

    Maybe he was the only guy showing her attention at the time? Maybe he had other qualities besides just his body that she liked. Maybe she also like his body (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!). Maybe she was incredibly lonely and he helped fill her heart with joy at a particular joyless time in life. Maybe she enjoyed his company.

    Exactly this.

  • Emily

    >> Actually from what I’ve observed, if anything it’s the short women who’re most likely to want 6′+ guys.
    ———
    This matches what I’ve noticed as well. For me personally (I’m 5’10), 6’+ is obviously the ideal, but I’m happy with any guy who’s vaguely my height. I have also dated/had crushes on shorter guys, although these guys tended to have a more ‘buff’ body type, so in my mind they still registered as being physically ‘bigger’ than me.

  • Kiwi

    “My best guess would be either in Mediterranean countries or Nordic countries. Hot pieces are often in those locales.”

    Nords are not my type but I get what you’re saying.

    However, having been to both regions I can assure you that truly stellar looking men are a slim minority, but its true that the average man there is better looking than the average man here.

    The man who has it all in terms of looks; awesome face, height and bod is a rarity in any given population. From my experience those men are not salivating dogs around women and are not “proactive” in approaching the general populace of women.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Not even in the abstract any more, eh?

    I’m not sure if any of the women here ever supported the concept in general, abstract included. I certainly didn’t.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the point of that earlier post was not to say that EvPsych is all, it was to flip the script on the “insecure” re-frame, to show that the same logic works both ways, but in practice is only employed one way.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Personally, I see male physical attractiveness as an overall negative. Don’t get me wrong, I notice good-looking men, but I write them off. I remember various conversations here about various celebrity males, and none of them got any response from me. My thinking was “meh, whatever.”

    I think there’s something rather feminine about the men who are considered good-looking by most women. But maybe that’s me doing the sour grapes thing? I also think it would be uncool to be with a guy who is “prettier” than me. I’m not very confident in my looks, and frankly, I know I’ll age and lose my looks as time goes on, and I’m not interested in the strange procedures people do to try to preserve their youth.

    That said, my husband is a good-looking man, but I didn’t know that when I first started getting interested in him. Because of my feelings for him, I find him to be much more attractive than any of the various guys that other women say are good-looking.

    Being restricted means there is no condition under which a guy can possibly be good-looking/dominant/alpha/high status enough that I’d even kiss him unless there is genuine love and emotional connection. That means I don’t care about the men other women swoon for. In D&D it is called “immunity to charm.” :P

  • Josie88

    @INTJ
    I am perfectly ok with men preferring inexperience girls and girls preferring a more sexually experience man. Whatever is best each other. I have no problem with my man having more sexually experience than I did, so long as he was a gentleman to them and a fling or one or two one night stands are understandable.

    To me, it is more about the injustice of it all. I was a teenage virgin when I met this sleazy mid 20-something guy. I hate the thought of him finding happiness with a young girl that gets wife because she remained a virgin until her wedding night.

    That future virgin wife deserves a sweet, loving beta guy that had treated women well in the past instead of a douchbag that seduced young virgins who he rejected because they failed to past his test. It is the male equivalent of marrying a slut or in your case, marrying a hot girl with a low number but her exes were alphas. Also, would you say that he is an alpha because he only targets girls between 16 – 21?

    In the previous thread, I was talking about a friend of my. I am going to demote him from friend to a jerk that was the roommate of my beta boyfriend. Anyways, he was telling a hilarious story about one of his friend that lives in another region of the state.

    That friend has a girlfriend that lives in another state, so he is cheating on her with a bunch of girls.

    He enjoys bareback sex and never bothers to “pull out.” He gotten a few of them pregnant and took them to the clinic to terminate the pregnancies because he already had a girlfriend and he wasn’t ready to be a dad.

    He told jerk roommate that he wants to marry a virgin, since he thinks that many of them are slutty and wants to break up with his girlfriend soon, but is too scared.

    Although I did took pleasure in seeing how heartbroken jerk roommate was over the hot girl that was dating his alpha male roommate that plays football of the university.  It was his fault that he was emotionally investing in a hot girl that was dating his roommate at the time.

    The hot girl in question was a sweet, cool, and social girl. I actually really did like her and thought her football player boyfriend was a moron for breaking up with her. I also thought it was funny when jerk roommate was complaining about all these hot girls and they rejected him but was seduced by his roommate.

    On the other hand, how would you rate Karen Owen’s appearances? From her PowerPoint presentation, she was able to get a series of jocks to sleep with her a few nights instead of one night stands. Some of the jock was average looking at best, though.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy,

    So, what, are you saying that’s unreasonable for a guy who is considering a long term committent to want to be her number one?

    If so–and with all due respect–I have to say that I would advise any friend of mine not to date you, though like Mike C, I give you major points for honesty.

    Susan, I know you hate the concept, but if this desire is now verbotten AND YET women will still expect men to commit to them anyway, I am afraid that the “feminine imperative” must be at least partly real.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I think it’s perfectly reasonable for both parties to want to be one another’s #1, and in fact I would never advise marriage if that were not the case. I don’t think the concept is verboten at all, and it’s always dangerous to extrapolate from Sassy’s views, as she is our most extreme outlier.

      Again, the point is that women are capable of representing how they feel about you vs. past men. We do not need you to look at the roster and make a judgment call. Why would you want to do that? It smacks of distrust and insecurity.

      Now, let me address the use of the word insecure. Here are synonyms for that word:

      unsafe, precarious, uncertain, unsure, unsteady, shaky, unsound, unstable

      Any relationship where one party harbors stronger feelings for someone else is all of these things. The other party is right and smart to feel insecure, and to use that feeling of instability and uncertainty to signal that commitment is not advisable.

      A large part of my message to women is that “if you have to wonder if the guy likes you, he doesn’t.” That means if you feel insecure, don’t waste your time. The right relationship, and the right person for you, will feel very secure.

      There is no shame in feeling insecure. It’s a feeling we should heed.

  • Kiwi

    “Personally, I see male physical attractiveness as an overall negative. Don’t get me wrong, I notice good-looking men, but I write them off. I remember various conversations here about various celebrity males, and none of them got any response from me. ”

    Even amongst American male celebrities though, the stellar looking man is rare and his looks do not last long.

    The assumption seems to be amongst a few readers here that stellar looking men are “ass hats”, sexually promiscuous, or somehow inexplicably more extroverted than less stellar men.

    Why these assumptions?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Escoffier, I still endorse that concept. I tell my husband he is the most awesome man in the world all the time. But I did find the unicorn among men, so there is that.

    I wrote this to him: http://www.rosehope.com/love

  • Escoffier

    No, I don’t think she ever said it once. She did, a few times, give me the “why should the past matter?” speech. Which I took to mean, “get over it and don’t mess this up for me.”

    What you are looking past here, Susan, is something that I have already addressed. Just–as you say–we don’t get to decide who you find alpha or sexy or whatever, you for the same reason don’t get to decide what we consider a legitimate matter of concern and what we don’t.

    And, I don’t half agree with your point anyway. Certainly tastes differ and women will differ in their opinions about various men. So, it’s not the place of any man to say “You personally should find X more attractive than Y, who is more attractive than Z.” As far as that goes, how she feels is how she feels, and that’s that.

    However, most men can also intuit their own SMV, and if not in absolute terms, certainly in relative terms. So, while the woman can say and think what she wants, if her current BF is a 6 (and knows it) and her last one was an 8 (and current BF knows that too), that is a recipe for instability.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      However, most men can also intuit their own SMV, and if not in absolute terms, certainly in relative terms. So, while the woman can say and think what she wants, if her current BF is a 6 (and knows it) and her last one was an 8 (and current BF knows that too), that is a recipe for instability.

      There are several problems with this statement.

      1. How are you defining SMV? The handsome poet or the ugly but masculine hockey goalie? Both may have the same N, while one may be dominant and the other not at all.

      The alpha/beta dichotomy does not work for SMV.

      2. SMV alone is a STR concern. LTR-oriented women give stronger weight to LTR factors, or RMV/MMV. You can’t evaluate the SMV of a woman’s past partners outside the context of the relationships. A high SMV guy may have an overall low RMV, while a high RMV guy may have a lower SMV than a player.

      3. There is considerable variability among women. A guy who sees himself as a 6 may claim that a girl’s ex is an 8, while she may feel quite strongly that the ex is not as attractive as the current bf.

      Finally, as I’ve shared before, my college bf was the BMOC. He was actually voted Greek God the year we got together. His SMV was sky high. He is the least memorable of all the men I’ve known, though that is my second-longest relationship. Despite his perfect body, he was not sexy. Nor was he particularly interesting or smart. He was a nice, good, handsome, dull guy. The idea of my husband being the least bit threatened by this guy is absurd, and he knows that because I told him so.

  • Kiwi

    ” It is the male equivalent of marrying a slut or in your case, marrying a hot girl with a low number but her exes were alphas. ”

    Yeah, right? LOL! SMH.

    “On the other hand, how would you rate Karen Owen’s appearances? From her PowerPoint presentation, she was able to get a series of jocks to sleep with her a few nights instead of one night stands. Some of the jock was average looking at best, though.”

    Karen Owen, like most unrestricted women, are average looking, perhaps slightly above average considering the obesity epidemic here and the fact that just being a healthy weight will put someone in the above average category. Similarly, as you observed, the unrestricted male sluts she got with were also average at best.

    People who are extremely good looking or who prefer to hold out for extremely good looking partners which rarely come along being labeled as “unrestricted” just cracks me up.

  • Escoffier

    If you want a literary example, Gatsby goes off the rails the instant he realizes that Daisy really was–at least in the past–more viscerally into Tom that she was ever into Gatsby, in large part because of Tom’s brute physicality and athletecism. She’s willing to leave Tom because he is a cheating ass but Gatsby wants an assurance that he (Gatsby) is and always has been her numero uno but she will not say so. She won’t even lie in the moment to get what she (ostensibly) wants. Gatsby won’t accept that and, well, you know the rest.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Sassy wrote:

    My best guess would be either in Mediterranean countries or Nordic countries. Hot pieces are often in those locales.

    I would say that’s half-right. French/Spanish/Italian men are all quite aggressive and French women I can say from experience can be quite demure (or not too). There’s a fair amount of feminine competition in those locales as well. For example, the average BMI of French women across all age groups is 23.1. They have a good diet and it shows, both in face and stomach. Furthermore, most women dress chic, especially in the South. On the negative side, there’s lots of smokers and cigarettes can age even faster than wine and cupcakes.

    The nordic countries are not so much known for aggressive men. I’ve not been there, but I’ve known a gaggle of natives and had dates with a couple Swedes. Generally they are considerably more pro-equality and anti-gender then continental Europe. This has the expected negative impact on the development of frisson between the masculine and feminine archetypes.

  • Escoffier

    (BTW, this is why casting Bruce Dern as Tom was such an effing disaster. Tom is described as “hulking” and a superstar athlete, all “rude animal health” as Wolfe would say. Bruce Dern, well, he was something else.)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “As for the claim that attractive men attract more women than unattractive men, and have an easier time getting sex: DUH”

    No shit sherlock.
    Thats not the point.

    What your stating is that the hot guy gets sexed up and then the ugly guy has to pick up the tab.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Just looked up who Christy Turlington is, and wow. She is incredibly gorgeous!

    Escoffier, if a past girl my husband was involved looked anything like her, I would be so incredibly insecure, heh. It’s not just men that are concerned with pasts.

    Does your wife know?

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    This is not correct. People of similar levels of sociosexuality and sexual history tend to pair off with each other.

    Sociosexuality doesn’t measure sexual experience level. It’s designed primarily to measure a person’s orientation wrt. casual sex. The behavior portion of the SOI-R only measures recent (past 12 months) behavior and behavior with respect to casual sex. Thus, it is incapable of distinguishing between say an N=0 person and an N=10 (all “LTRs” and none in the past 12 months) person.

    Anyways, whether in general restricted girls are pairing up with HanSolos while more reformed-sluts settle for low-experience betas is irrelevant (and I’d say I don’t have enough knowledge/data to make a judgement either way). I was merely responding to Josie88’s complaining about males based on her particular anecdotes (which involved highly experienced males wanting extremely inexperienced females – these anecdotes may or may not be representative of male-female relations in general).

    I’ve recently linked to research – maybe even in this thread – that shows that both men and women prefer partners of low to moderate sexual history.

    That statement, while technically true, isn’t all that meaningful. When you look at the edges of that “low to moderate sexual history”, a more nuanced picture emerges. For one thing, women seem to have a threshold of roughly N~=20 for “high N”, even though only like 1% of men actually have that high an N. In contrast, the male threshold is N~=5, as evidenced by that one AskMen survey. Additionally, we know that 1/6th more men than women (2/3rds vs 1/3) would be willing to date a virgin.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      Sociosexuality doesn’t measure sexual experience level.

      That’s not true, a full third of it measures only sexual experience. Only one of the three questions is limited to a 12 month time frame.
      Additionally, the SOI is highly reliable and predictive of sexual behavior – throughout life.

      For one thing, women seem to have a threshold of roughly N~=20 for “high N”, even though only like 1% of men actually have that high an N.

      You’re mixing a bunch of different sources there, including anecdotal evidence and my own ballparking on the 20 number, which I readily admit I have no basis for. From the study I referenced:

      We provided participants with the commonly used mate-selection preference list originally created by Hill (1945); one third received the list in its original form (with the attribute “chastity”), one third received the list with “some sexual experience (had few sexual partners)” replacing “chastity,” and one third received the list with “considerable sexual experience (had several previous sexual partners)” instead of “chastity.”

      This was the measure used for both sexes.

      The restricted women rated a partner’s chastity as more desirable than did the unrestricted women; unrestricted women rated moderate sexual experience and extensive sexual experience as more desirable (or less undesirable) in a partner than did their restricted counterparts. Thus, for women, but not for men, sociosexual orientation was related to preferences for sexual experience (inexperience) in a partner.

      Surprisingly, we did not find gender differences in how the different versions of the sexuality item were rated. Both men and women preferred chastity in a partner most and extensive prior sexual experience the least. This lack of gender difference is consistent with results from prior mate-selection studies examining preferences for chastity (Hoyt & Hudson, 1981). However, our results are inconsistent with those of person perception experiments (e.g., Sprecher et al., 1991), which have shown some evidence for a “reverse double standard,” such that men report a preference to date highly sexually experienced women, whereas women report a preference for sexually inexperienced or moderately experienced men. Theoretically, one could argue that socialization experiences and the content of sexual scripts for men and women are becoming more similar.

  • Escoffier

    Susan,

    As I’m sure you are well aware, “insecure” in this context means none of those things. Rather, it is an insult that means: unworthy, low self-esteem, lack of confidence, knows he is second best and resents it, psychologically damaged, childish, jealous, etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As I’m sure you are well aware, “insecure” in this context means none of those things. Rather, it is an insult that means: unworthy, low self-esteem, lack of confidence, knows he is second best and resents it, psychologically damaged, childish, jealous, etc.

      I don’t think that’s what Mireille was saying at all. She observed that a man’s needing to view and judge a roster of past bf’s is insecure. I don’t see how you can argue that point. A man who was secure in his partner’s affection and sexual attraction would have no need to compare, right?

  • Lokland

    “Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.”

    No, calling someone lucky is an insult.
    It reduces every bit of effort they have put into something to an off chance.

    ‘Your a lucky bastard.’

    After narrowly avoiding a negative situation is not a compliment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      You cannot control all outcomes depending on your level of effort. Many people do not get what they deserve. There is an element of chance, fortune, randomness, whatever you want to call it.

      People who practice gratitude, and recognize how little they actually do control, are generally found to be happier and more content.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    So, what, are you saying that’s unreasonable for a guy who is considering a long term committent to want to be her number one?

    If so–and with all due respect–I have to say that I would advise any friend of mine not to date you, though like Mike C, I give you major points for honesty.

    With all due respect, I don’t think I would have any interest in dating your friends. If they are like you, they probably aren’t my type. No offense.

    I’m okay if a guy wants to be thought of as better than my past boyfriends in most ways. I would think that he was delusional if he expected the be the best in every way, shape, and form.

    If a guy wants to be thought of as the most worthy of love, in my eyes, that’s understandable. If he expected to be the best singer, cooker, actor, dancer, etc out of all of my past boyfriends, I would think that he was a bit crazy.

    In another recent post up-thread, I listed the “non-negotiable” traits that I look for in men. Those are the traits that a man must have in order for me to consider dating him. I think that many other superfluous traits exist, however, and it would be a fool’s errand on a man’s part to try to be the best in every way. Should it really matter to a guy whether or not I think that he is the best Guitar Hero player of all of my exes? Crossword puzzle solver? Model airplane builder?

    I hope the answer to those questions is no.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    It’s not a question of how you view yourself. Whether it disgusts you or not, hipster bass players enjoy considerable status within their own social circles, and they do well with women.

    And I and my highly intelligent STEM friends enjoy considerable status within our own social circles, and we do poorly with women.

    Your being insulted is just you projecting your own loathing for hipsters, it does not reflect how women feel about them.

    That’s the whole point. I loath hipsters. Women who feel differently about hipsters should not turn around and afterwards try to have a relationship with me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      And I and my highly intelligent STEM friends enjoy considerable status within our own social circles, and we do poorly with women.

      Well, I did mention the caveat that women have to value your circle. Women generally give much higher levels of attention to those in creative pursuits, and those who display their talent. That’s much easier for a musician to do than an engineer.

      Women who feel differently about hipsters should not turn around and afterwards try to have a relationship with me.

      I wouldn’t lose too much sleep worrying that this might happen.

  • Escoffier

    Hope, no, my wife never saw her. She is aware that I dated a left-wing lit-critter for a while and that’s all.

    BTW, just to be clear, she was not the ACTUAL Christy Turlington, rather she was a literary intellectual/studying to be a prof who looked like a cross between Grace Kelly and Christy Turlington. Her face was perhaps a bit more Turlington but her hair and carriage were Kelly.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “Always the extremist how about targeting women that are significantly shorter than you? Women on average are shorter than men so looking for a woman that is shorter than you is easier than the other way around.”

    Please, I was being intentionally dense.
    My wife is 5′ 2”. I’m 5′ 7”.

    I’m not an idiot.
    I just enjoy being told that all I have to do is where nice clothes and go to the gym.

    It really is a load of shit if certain basal traits are not met.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, it’s safe to take it for granted that we were not talking about trivialities such as “guitar hero.”

  • SayWhaat

    That’s the whole point. I loath hipsters. Women who feel differently about hipsters should not turn around and afterwards try to have a relationship with me.

    I don’t think you will ever have to worry about that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t think you will ever have to worry about that.

      LOL, SW beat me to it. I’m picturing Hannah Horvath getting naked for INTJ and him running away at 60 mph.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    Personally, I see male physical attractiveness as an overall negative. Don’t get me wrong, I notice good-looking men, but I write them off. I remember various conversations here about various celebrity males, and none of them got any response from me. My thinking was “meh, whatever.”

    Well, I think this is how a lot of us restricted guys (and even some unrestricted guys) react to celebrity females.

    Being restricted means there is no condition under which a guy can possibly be good-looking/dominant/alpha/high status enough that I’d even kiss him unless there is genuine love and emotional connection. That means I don’t care about the men other women swoon for. In D&D it is called “immunity to charm.”

    Haha QOTD!

  • Escoffier

    The girls’ claws are really coming out!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The girls’ claws are really coming out!

      LMAO! I’m done on this topic, I don’t have time to go round and round and like SayWhaat says, it’s the same old rabbit hole with different camouflage on top.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “I’ve recently linked to research – maybe even in this thread – that shows that both men and women prefer partners of low to moderate sexual history.”

    But, whether that research shows it or not, if forced to choose, men would much prefer a woman with less history than theirs over a woman with more history, especially if the deviation either way is substantial. Whereas most women would prefer the opposite (even if they aren’t aware of it or won’t acknowledge it).

    @intj

    “Actually from what I’ve observed, if anything it’s the short women who’re most likely to want 6′+ guys.”

    I think, more accurately, the shorter the woman, the more of a height deviation from her own that she craves. A 5’10” woman might think a 6’1″ or 6’2″ guy is right in her sweetspot. A 5’0″ woman is unlikely to feel the same about a 5’3″ or 5’4″ guy. Oh, and on average, women crave a greater height differential than men do. One of the manospherian sites posted stats about this recently. I’d go find it an link it, but I’d probably get banned. ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mr. Nervous Toes

    I would say that’s half-right. French/Spanish/Italian men are all quite aggressive and French women I can say from experience can be quite demure (or not too). There’s a fair amount of feminine competition in those locales as well. For example, the average BMI of French women across all age groups is 23.1. They have a good diet and it shows, both in face and stomach. Furthermore, most women dress chic, especially in the South. On the negative side, there’s lots of smokers and cigarettes can age even faster than wine and cupcakes.

    The nordic countries are not so much known for aggressive men. I’ve not been there, but I’ve known a gaggle of natives and had dates with a couple Swedes. Generally they are considerably more pro-equality and anti-gender then continental Europe. This has the expected negative impact on the development of frisson between the masculine and feminine archetypes.

    I wasn’t talking about male aggressiveness, although Kiwi’s comment did. I was focusing on the aspect of male physical attractiveness only. Sorry for the confusion.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    We got a Latin American Pope! :o I’m pleasantly surprised. Long live to Francisco I :)

  • Ramble

    I’ve wasted enough time on this site arguing about cock carousels.

    Personally, I am not a carousel pusher. However, I am also not one to enable victimhood, which is the whole point of “innocent” girls talking about how they got “burned”.

  • Angelguy

    “In another recent post up-thread, I listed the “non-negotiable” traits that I look for in men. Those are the traits that a man must have in order for me to consider dating him. I think that many other superfluous traits exist, however, and it would be a fool’s errand on a man’s part to try to be the best in every way. Should it really matter to a guy whether or not I think that he is the best Guitar Hero player of all of my exes? Crossword puzzle solver? Model airplane builder?”

    @Sassy

    Sometimes, the very traits that made one person attractive, will turn you off later in another mate.

    One shouldn’t expect to be the best at everything their ex did.
    I agree with you there.

  • Draggin

    @tomato

    “every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.””

    Massive generalization aside, is this a male endorsement for hypergamy?
    =================================================

    This isn’t an endorsement for hypergamy. It is the RESULT of hypergamy. Men instinctively know there will be problems unless the woman realizes that he is the best she can do.

    It is why her new boyfriend will feel that saywhaat’s ex is still a threat, especially now that he is a star and outranks her boyfriend in the male heirarchy. It has already been said upthread that women use men’s confidence/dominance as a proxy for their place in the heirarchy. Since men are good at judging their place, they will instinctively increase the mate-guarding proportionate to the alphaness of the other man. We also realize that some aspects of that relationship must have been good, and you could always change your mind about him (or he could try to win you back) so there is still potential competition there.

    Put the show on the other foot. How many women enjoy having their boyfriend’s ex be a lot hotter/thinner/sexual than them? If your man said it was over with their ex, would you let him hang out with her still? Why not? Do women ever feel in competition with exes? Is that just insecurity as well that they should just get over or move on if they feel it?

    Based on the number of people that have flings and cheat with exes, especially with the convenience of Facebook, I don’t call it insecurity. I call it prudence.

    After all, you telling us that he does not matter to you anymore is just

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Escoffier, so a blond Christy Turlington with more of a playboy body than model thin? And intelligent, to boot. Yeah, I’d be super insecure. I also have a particular insecurity about blond girls.

    So have you ever described her looks to your wife? Or just to us here at HUS?

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    I don’t think you will ever have to worry about that.

    Hahaha! Understatement of the year.

  • mr. wavevector

    On this discussion over dating a woman with an Alpha past:

    I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,” but the reality is that a lot of girls have a terrible experience with Alpha, never try it again, and are all too happy to partner with someone more LTR worthy in the future.

    I’ve had girlfriends with Alphas in their past. It was pretty easy to tell if they thought I was the best they ever had, or just a poor substitute. If the girl is totally besotted with me, why should I care about that guy? I’m conceited enough to think I’m probably better than him anyway!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If the girl is totally besotted with me, why should I care about that guy? I’m conceited enough to think I’m probably better than him anyway!

      Exactly! How hard can it be to detect if a girl is besotted? If you don’t feel 100% certain, i.e. secure in that feeling, move on.

  • Draggin

    words. We never know the whole story and most people have learned to discount words and watch the past, present, and future actions.

  • Passer_By

    This debate between Escoffier and Susan is two people talking past each other. If the ex has high SMV AND the woman was crushed when they broke up, the new lower SMV guy has reason to feel she is settling. I’ve seen that in the break up of a marriage of a business acquaintance/casual friend whose wife was close to mine. She never stopped pining for this other guy, was never satisfied with her husband, and jumped at the chance to get back with the other guy (at great expense to her husband, I might add, since his income was drastically higher than the ex). I think he deduced that, for a while, he was the sole means of support for both of them.

    If, as in Susan’s case, the woman grew tired of supposedly high SMV guy and was happy to get out of the relationship (or at least not in the least bit crushed), then there is no issue.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      If the ex has high SMV AND the woman was crushed when they broke up, the new lower SMV guy has reason to feel she is settling.

      Of course, and that goes both ways. That’s why being the rebound is never a good idea. In the case you mentioned, why did the husband not perceive that his wife was never satisfied? How does one miss that?

  • Angelguy

    “I think, more accurately, the shorter the woman, the more of a height deviation from her own that she craves. A 5’10″ woman might think a 6’1″ or 6’2″ guy is right in her sweetspot. A 5’0″ woman is unlikely to feel the same about a 5’3″ or 5’4″ guy. Oh, and on average, women crave a greater height differential than men do. One of the manospherian sites posted stats about this recently. I’d go find it an link it, but I’d probably get banned”

    That is good to know.
    I will have to pay attention to that.
    If a woman was 1 or 2 inches taller than me, it wouldn’t bother me, it would be a turn on.

    Ok, know that might not have been relevant, felt like sharing.

  • Mireille

    @Escoffier, Mike C and al.

    I have a great attitude and I make my own luck, so thanks for the wishes but no, thanks.

    This blog isn’t a therapy session where I hold your hand while you guys talk yourselves into a mental breakdown about some other dudes a woman previously dated, and this has nothing to do with men bashing. If some men want to take themselves out of the race just because they don’t feel up to the challenge of meeting someone and building a future instead of dwelling on the past, women just have to date the portion, as small as it, of men more apt and mentally stronger. That is in itself encouraging that hyper gamy you guys complain about. We can’t do all the work for you guys, seriously. As a woman, I can’t be trying to adjust to a changing environment and try and manage its effect on your ego as well; if the only effort a man can make in this situation is to avoid me then so be it. Survival of the fittest and all that stuff.
    If a woman stands in front of you and tells/shows you you’re the best for her and you don’t believe it, that is your problem, no hers. You can whether or not you want to be with her, not what she finds attractive. It would be la A cup getting in leagues against C cups, or blondes against brunettes, or non-domestic women undermining those who know how to care for a home; it all amount to pointless jealousy and laziness, fueled by fear of competition.
    All I can say is don’t let those fear cripple you, there are so much more drama in life, why add more?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “If you can’t tell whether your fiancee is marrying you because she’s out of options and you’re a short, unappealing guy with a decent salary, that’s on you (as per Mike C’s example). That guy is an idiot, he’s wearing a sign on his back that says “kick me.””

    Fun concept but what if the only reason a woman would marry a short guy is because of his salary?

    There are no real options that involve attraction.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There are no real options that involve attraction.

      Not for that guy. His gf is sexually assertive with men well over 6 feet right in front of him!

      That doesn’t mean no woman will want him. I’m sure he knows she’s not sexually attracted to him, and he’s willing to make the deal anyway because her perceives her to be a catch. A lot of men go for the arm candy and ignore the fact that the woman can barely stand the sight of them. It’s the tradeoff for an SMV mismatch.

  • Passer_By

    @wavevector

    “I’ve had girlfriends with Alphas in their past. It was pretty easy to tell if they thought I was the best they ever had, or just a poor substitute. If the girl is totally besotted with me, why should I care about that guy? I’m conceited enough to think I’m probably better than him anyway!”

    X_actly.

  • OffTheCuff

    Take the three best-looking men here: Han, Jason, Zach, and average their N, and their R (longest monogamous relationship in years). It’s a pretty strong correlation. There are very little hot virgins and ugly studs around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Take the three best-looking men here: Han, Jason, Zach

      I have never seen Zach, and I don’t think you have either. IIRC, only Sassy and I have seen Jason. I don’t see how you can make this claim, especially as there are many men whose pics we have never seen.

      There are very little hot virgins and ugly studs around.

      I’ve been amazed to find how many athletes and fraternity guys are ugly. Some of the highest N guys around are busted.

  • Escoffier

    1. Defined however the current BF defines it. For instance, I never saw the Frenchman. Not even a picture. So I don’t know what he looked like. But he had a raft of status cues that I didn’t have, enough (or so I calculated) to override whatever it was that I did have. Plus, it was fairly clear that she didn’t leave him because she realized he was not desirable or because I was better. So, based on the information I had at the time I concluded (reasonably) that his SMV was higher than mine. I could have made the same calculation had the status cues been fewer but I had a chance to see him and gauge his physical appearance and judged it higher. In other words, we make the best estimate that we can with the information at hand. And as you well know, SMV encompasses a lot of traits.

    2) This feeds into what I am saying, and also into the “price discrimination” meme. First, there are many of us who really don’t want girls who are into any kind of STRs at all. That alone is a red flag. Second, when it happens, a major reason why she chooses STR over LTR is because the particular guy is up for the former but not the latter. She’d take the latter if he were offering, but he isn’t, and she’d rather have him on SOME terms that bypass him completely. We would, of course, not be offered those same terms.

    3) Addressed above. And, as noted, irrelevant. The point is, if a guy knows he is “lesser” that her past BF(s), it’s a recipe for instability. Call this what you will, insecurity or whatever, it’s a fact much of the time. I think your personal example is not apt in this case because your husband neither knows, suspects, nor believes anything different. There honestly is no one in your past who “outranks” him and you have conveyed that in a convincing way. It’s a problem when the guy DOES know, suspect, or believe something different. You can call that belief unwarranted, and you might be right in a lot of cases. But even in those cases, it’s an obstacle to be overcome.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a problem when the guy DOES know, suspect, or believe something different. You can call that belief unwarranted, and you might be right in a lot of cases. But even in those cases, it’s an obstacle to be overcome.

      I agree with this. It is a problem. There are probably cases where the suspicion is justified – the relationship is indeed unstable. There are other cases where it is not, but the relationship is still unstable because of irrational fears.

      Either way, it’s not going to work out. Mireille’s point, and I think it’s a valid one, is that some men appear to take this suspicion into every relationship. Merely wanting the details on past relationships is a red flag for suspicion, insecurity, instability – whatever you want to call it. Men who are prone to this will have difficulty forming relationships – and that does for women as well.

  • Ramble

    Generally I think women *enjoy* thinking about individual emotional reactions to particular situations more than men do, which probably means they are usually better about it. On the average, of course.

    Yes, I think that women enjoy the emotional interplay.

  • INTJ

    @ Josie88

    Ahh we’re good then. It’s just that as that sweet beta guy who’s also quite restricted, it really gets under my skin when women complain about the double standard and how cads get to marry virgins – when it is the women themselves who tend to choose the cads.

    On the other hand, how would you rate Karen Owen’s appearances? From her PowerPoint presentation, she was able to get a series of jocks to sleep with her a few nights instead of one night stands. Some of the jock was average looking at best, though.

    She’s somewhat better looking than average, but hard to tell beyond that with the pictures I could find. In the picture with a black dress, she looks like a 7, in the pic with a red dress, she looks like a 6, while in the yellow t-shirt, she looks like a 7-8. I’d guess she’s probably a 6-7.

    Anyways, those jocks would have been happy to sleep with her multiple times as long as she didn’t demand a relationship.

  • Kiwi

    “And I and my highly intelligent STEM friends enjoy considerable status within our own social circles, and we do poorly with women.”

    There are considerably less women in STEM than there are in the hipster scene.

    ” Your being insulted is just you projecting your own loathing for hipsters, it does not reflect how women feel about them.”

    “That’s the whole point. I loath hipsters. Women who feel differently about hipsters should not turn around and afterwards try to have a relationship with me.”

    I doubt they will. I mean, has that been your personal experience thus far?

  • Escoffier

    Mireille,

    I didn’t convey any wishes to you, so no worries there.

  • Sassy6519

    Do women ever feel in competition with exes?

    I haven’t. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate, in this regard.

    Is that just insecurity as well that they should just get over or move on if they feel it?

    Any woman that feels that way, in my opinion, should either get over it or move on. Drowning a man in the sea of your insecurities is not a good thing to do. Either accept things as they are or FIDO.

    Based on the number of people that have flings and cheat with exes, especially with the convenience of Facebook, I don’t call it insecurity. I call it prudence.

    Here’s a novel concept. If you can’t even trust your partner not to cheat on you with an ex, DON’T DATE THEM. Trust is the foundation of all good relationships. If you can’t even establish that, the relationship is doomed, in my opinion.

  • Kiwi

    “Men instinctively know there will be problems unless the woman realizes that he is the best she can do. ”

    Just the other day a man here was saying the attitude of “he’s the best I can do” is a death knell for a relationship.

    This back and forth over semantics and excrutiatingly small details is a lady boner killer.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, let Lokland be his grumpy self. :P

    Draggin “How many women enjoy having their boyfriend’s ex be a lot hotter/thinner/sexual than them? If your man said it was over with their ex, would you let him hang out with her still? Why not? Do women ever feel in competition with exes? Is that just insecurity as well that they should just get over or move on if they feel it?”

    I would not enjoy that at all, which is why I prefer that my husband has a low N. Definitely no to him hanging out with ex’s. I freely admit to feeling jealous and insecure. Luckily (hehe Susan see what I did there) my husband thinks it’s cute that I get insecure.

  • J

    @ SayWhaat

    The issue is when those same guys hold that low N against us. I mean, if my ex becomes a famous opera star and my next boyfriend gets intimidated by that and accuses me of banging alphas, I wouldn’t know what to say to him. Self-confidence comes from within.

    That’s a hard one. Most people come with a past, and inevitably there are people who will be threatened by that past. I myself have an ex-fiance who looks great on paper–advanced degree in a science, law degree, has held public office, belt holder in a marital art, IQ in the 160s, etc. He was also the biggest bullet I ever dodged–six kids with three different women, only two of which he married, never supported the two kids whose mother he did not marry, the two kids from his first wife no longer speak to him. All four of those kids have been on some form of public aid as kids. The girlfriend once attempted suicide.

    DH does not feel threatened by him, despite the fact that we occasionally run into my ex, who is unctiously flattering to me. He realizes that the on paper version of this guy is significantly better than the real life version.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Sassy6519 #459,

    I’ve read a number of papers on sexual economics that support your hypothesis. They conclude that economic, political, and sexual restrictions on women are necessary to maintain universal assortative marriage, where everyone pairs up with someone at approximately the same rank. As you said, this doesn’t suit most women’s sexual preferences, but they do it because they have no other choice.

    You describe what happens after those restrictions are lifted; women are free to pursue men according to their desires. Of course, we know how that turns out. Most women are only attracted to the most attractive men, aka hypergamy.

    Most men today may be having a hard time in the dating game because they can’t pass most women’s thresholds for physical/sexual attractiveness. That parameter was not so much of a factor a long time ago. Now it is, and it weeds out most men for most women.

    Beta men are the biggest losers when universal assortative marriage breaks down. That’s why assortative marriage is associated with societies where beta men have strong political power. That group is disenfranchised today. The Left caters to women, the Right to rich men, and neither to the average Joe.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    So the very basal levels of treatment my gives me lucky which implies that those levels of love are uncommon.

    I lack the capacity to describe my complete and utter disappointment that what I described is special using the English language.

    No wonder MareGTOW

  • OffTheCuff

    Hannah’s not so bad, send her my way. Stop the average-person body shaming ;)

    INTJ, consider the fact that maybe those bass-playing hipsters know something you don’t. What can you learn from them, while still being true to yourself? Don’t let your ego get in the way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hannah’s not so bad, send her my way. Stop the average-person body shaming

      I wasn’t shaming her body, I object more to all the gratuitous nudity. However, I really mentioned her because she was the first person that popped into my mind who might go for a bass playing hipster (besides me in a prior life :) ).

  • Mireille

    Plus are not good at knowing their place; this is why you always have the ugliest guy in the bar trying desperately with the hottest chick, and getting labeled creepy. Women look at how men feel about one another and pick the one that looks relaxed and at ease. The other intimidated downgrade themselves because they *think* less of themselves. It is insecurity and it is NOT an insult. We all have them and we work on them. It must be one of those cultural differences again at work.

  • Kiwi

    Draggin “How many women enjoy having their boyfriend’s ex be a lot hotter/thinner/sexual than them? If your man said it was over with their ex, would you let him hang out with her still? Why not? Do women ever feel in competition with exes? Is that just insecurity as well that they should just get over or move on if they feel it?”

    How about men who “neg” their current girlfriends by comparing them to their ex gfs? Telling her, “I’ve dated women who have absolutely flawless skin before”. Or “I once dated this woman who’s body was so bangin’ she could be in KING magazine”?

    What’s this nonsense about?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    mr. wavevector “They conclude that economic, political, and sexual restrictions on women are necessary to maintain universal assortative marriage, where everyone pairs up with someone at approximately the same rank.”

    I’ve read similar things. There was one quote that went something like, “Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.” Those restrictions don’t square with the idea of a “free” society very well, which may be why there is so much tension surrounding this topic.

  • Escoffier

    “I don’t think that’s what Mireille was saying at all. She observed that a man’s needing to view and judge a roster of past bf’s is insecure. I don’t see how you can argue that point.

    OK, many seperable issues here.

    First, as to the definition, you listed a bunch of words like “shaky, unstable” and the like. How is the emotion or desire identified in the above quote akin to those things? Rather, it’s more like what I said. Why does he care? It’s because he’s underconfident in himself, worried that he’s unworthy, jealous, and so on. That’s the sense in which he’s “insecure.”

    “A man who was secure in his partner’s affection and sexual attraction would have no need to compare, right?”

    No, not necessarily. As I noted, a man wants to think he is her #1. Evidence that he is not is disconcerting (to say the least). There are a number of ways he can approach this issue. The best is to find a woman for whom this is not even a question. He has no need even to wonder about it because she gives no sign that there are/were any rivals. Another way is to ask, in whatever level of detail he needs in order to satisfy himself. The worst way is to be concerned but not to ask out of fear of the answer, or out of fear of being accused of being “weak.”

    M has already said that any man who wonders, much less asks, is ipso facto weak, hence I don’t see how she could have meant “insecure” in any other way. She’s way to the “left” of you on this one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The best is to find a woman for whom this is not even a question. He has no need even to wonder about it because she gives no sign that there are/were any rivals.

      Seriously, I consider this an absolute must in any relationship. If either party is not getting that level of assurance, either outright or clearly implied through actions, FIDO.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “They conclude that economic, political, and sexual restrictions on women are necessary to maintain universal assortative marriage, where everyone pairs up with someone at approximately the same rank. As you said, this doesn’t suit most women’s sexual preferences, but they do it because they have no other choice.”

    “Exactly! How hard can it be to detect if a girl is besotted? If you don’t feel 100% certain, i.e. secure in that feeling, move on.”

    Thats actually the problem. For some men, a woman besotted to them is an impossibility.

    Which is of course rather devastating.

    And most men are aware of where that line is and where they are in relation to it.

    So, when a woman has the option to choose some men will never have a woman who loves and is attracted to them.

    Full stop.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      For some men, a woman besotted to them is an impossibility.

      Which is of course rather devastating.

      And most men are aware of where that line is and where they are in relation to it.

      I disagree with you! You are such a pessimist on these matters! I understand that not every guy gets to be a top male, but that doesn’t mean it’s hopeless, and that he cannot find a mate.

      I think that realistically speaking, there is a small percentage of both women and men who will not have the opportunity to mate.

      A lot of what I get from you is the sense that you want to be one of those top males, and it pisses you off that you can’t be. You don’t seem able to comprehend that you are a “10” to your own wife.

  • Ramble

    Don’t worry love, I’m not combative IRL.

    I am glad to hear it. A lot of girls are hesitant to de-lurk because of how abrasive some of us guys get and I did not know how to phrase that without sounding slightly asshole-ish.

    And Ylang Ylang is my favorite essential oil.

    Lauric acid, here.

  • Kiwi

    “Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.”

    Sexual Marxism:
    From each according her ability. To each according his need.

    ;)

  • Abbot

    “This back and forth over semantics and excrutiatingly small details is a lady boner killer.”

    Its a trade off between adjusting sexual behavior or confronting these consequences. There are not nor will there be any other options.

  • Kiwi

    “MRAs are the same as feminists, maybe second wavers. There are no male equivalents to radfems, though. Spend a few minutes on radfemhub and try to find a make equivalent anywhere.”

    Second wavers were largely Radfems.

    Sex Possies are not Radfems.

  • Escoffier

    Hope,

    Re: the ex-GF’s smarts, my wife is a great deal more intelligent so she wins there. Plus, she is far “wiser” which counts for even more. And she’s, oh, about 1,000x the better mate so really there is no comparison in the end.

    The ex had candlepower, no doubt, but she was wrong in every way it’s most important to be right.

  • Tomato

    “This isn’t an endorsement for hypergamy. It is the RESULT of hypergamy.”

    This is a good point, but ultimately it still translates to “The hypergamy game sucks and shame on you for playing it, but if you don’t play the hypergamy game I’m going to hold it against you.” With a subtext of “How dare you choose to have sex with men other than me!!”

  • Lokland

    And I’m really forgetting to include my negators (negatives?) today.
    I think I’ve missed one in every comment so far.

  • Lokland

    @Tomato

    Actually, hypergamy is a good thing.
    Its what lets us avoid these situations.

    The only problem with hypergamy is when a woman wants better to the point she can’t get it and then has to settle.

    Have cake, eat cake is generally a frowned upon plan.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    That’s not true, a full third of it measures only sexual experience. Only one of the three questions is limited to a 12 month time frame.

    I don’t know why you’re making an argument that I’ve already addressed:

    The behavior portion of the SOI-R only measures recent (past 12 months) behavior and behavior with respect to casual sex. Thus, it is incapable of distinguishing between say an N=0 person and an N=10 (all “LTRs” and none in the past 12 months) person.

    Additionally, the SOI is highly reliable and predictive of sexual behavior – throughout life.

    A meaningless statement.

    For one thing, some of the reliability (iirc, you showed it was 0.7) over timespans is ilussionary (notably, questions 2 and 3 of the behavior section cannot change from a “yes” answer to a “no” answer over time, so obviously the answers will be highly correlated across time). I’d use the estimate of 0.5 based on twin studies as a much better lower bound for reliability.

    Additionally, the predictive power needs to be quantified. Sure, a correlation of 0.3 (just throwing out a number) can be predictive, but it only gives you 30% of the information.

    Most importantly though, I don’t care about past behavior solely because of how it predicts future behavior. I care about past behavior because of what it says about what the person valued in the past. To take an extreme example, let’s say I was given the chance to date a murderer but magically knew that she would be a good partner and would not harm anyone in the future. I’d still hold the past against her and not want to date her.

    (This is all assuming she didn’t have a good reason to murder of course).

    As for your survey about sexual double standards, we can just agree to disagree here. I think the numerous male posters in that thread (on the continued emergence of a single sexual standard) made some compelling arguments against your claim, so I doubt we’ll be able to find agreement here.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t think that’s what Mireille was saying at all. She observed that a man’s needing to view and judge a roster of past bf’s is insecure. I don’t see how you can argue that point. A man who was secure in his partner’s affection and sexual attraction would have no need to compare, right?

    That’s not my impression at all. My impression from the girl-folk is that insecure is being used to bash men as unmanly.
    Actually, what I am getting is the impression that girls want to shame men into not discussing “It,” and shaming men into trying not to feeling anything over “It.” “It” matters and “It” isn’t just about N, as we have been saying for quite some time on the men-folk side.

    You said it was that guy’s fault that he is marrying a woman who isn’t into him, except for his money, right? How are we supposed to know that as men if we do not investigate a woman’s past? Telepathy?

    Saying that some girls have an experience with an Alpha, get burned, and never want to do it again, doesn’t say anything. I do not know that just by looking at a woman, which is why investigation and conversation is in order.

    The impression that I, and I am guessing a lot of men-folk are getting, is that we are not allowed to ask, or feel insecure about it, or take time to process and re-assess, because then we are insecure and unmanly men. As a sociopath might put it “I’m with you now, why does my past matter?” and no discussion on the topic is allowed.

    Apparently with your husband you did not take the “be mysterious” strategy at all, you discussed it in a frank manner and explained your feelings in a way that reaffirmed your husband’s feelings for you. This is, in fact, quite possible. Just because the guy asks the question does not mean you are doomed to failure.

    I mean, christ, the whole reason I STARTED posting on this website is BECAUSE OF THIS VERY TOPIC. It’s not like I have NO idea what I am talking about here!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ADBG

      “It” matters and “It” isn’t just about N, as we have been saying for quite some time on the men-folk side.

      Were you the one who first brought this up? If so, may I ask how you have ferreted out this information and used it successfully in the past? You have shared that price discrimination was a huge issue for you and your gf a while back, so it sounds like you had good reasons to feel insecure. Did you set out to discover out how alpha vs. beta her previous sexual partners were?

      Saying that some girls have an experience with an Alpha, get burned, and never want to do it again, doesn’t say anything. I do not know that just by looking at a woman, which is why investigation and conversation is in order.

      You act like Alphas or cads come with a big warning label. Like the woman took up smoking knowing it would give her cancer.

      The average freshman girl who gets burned by a cad didn’t choose a cad – she went in thinking she had met a good guy who wanted to be her boyfriend. That’s why they’re called cads. So she chose a “good guy,” only he didn’t turn out to be so good after all.

      This is not the same as Karen Owen, or the girl who gets to college and runs trains at the frat house.

      If a woman has a history of pursuing casual sex, I agree 100% that her fitness for commitment is highly questionable. And that’s true for men as well, by the way.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J,

    He realizes that the on paper version of this guy is significantly better than the real life version.

    Exactly. There are so many ways to be a loser that aren’t obvious on the surface.

  • Escoffier

    Hypergamy is potentially socially valuable in a way that polygamy never is–provided the former is properly channeled.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Escoffier, that’s good to hear. So what you’re saying is, her great “beta” traits more than make up for her slightly less “alpha” looks. :P

    The very thought of such a beautiful woman is intimidating, so I can relate to the men on this topic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      True story here:

      A young woman I know noticed that on her boyfriend’s timeline from a year or two ago were frequent comments left by someone using the name of a famous Victoria’s Secret model. She thought that was really lame and weird. Then she found out it was the model. And that the model is an ex. :(

      She’s working to get past feelings of intimidation. He assures her that the girl is stupid, shallow and mean, which helps.

  • SayWhaat

    Based on the number of people that have flings and cheat with exes, especially with the convenience of Facebook, I don’t call it insecurity. I call it prudence.

    Here’s a novel concept. If you can’t even trust your partner not to cheat on you with an ex, DON’T DATE THEM. Trust is the foundation of all good relationships. If you can’t even establish that, the relationship is doomed, in my opinion.

    Actually, I agree that it is prudent. It’s too easy for affairs to start in this day and age, and I trust former flames much less than my partner.

    Ex-purging on Facebook before heading into marriage is very prudent, IMO.

  • Kiwi

    Lokland,
    “I disagree with the Radfem evil genius bit. Especially wrt pushing back marriage and no kids.

    There are other places in the world experiencing the same problems.
    But even more so.

    Some of them lack feminism.
    Some of them lack (or have low quantities) or hook up culture or for that matter women who have Ns more than one (or very close too).
    Some of them have but do not use the pill.

    But they all have delayed marriage and less children.

    I don’t think its nearly as much of a problem is people are led to believe but it is an effect that seems independent of feminism.”

    The reason for this is that as people become more intelligent though higher standard of living, better education, and higher quality food nutrition, they tend to want to live at a certain standard of wealth, health and education and provide their children with the same or better. These entails having less children. While their great grandparents generation may have married younng, and started breeding at 15 and continued through 40 having 8,10,12 even 14 or more kids, their grandparents generation would have started at 20 and had maybe 5 kids, and then their parents generation started at 25 and had 3.

    They themselves may start at 30 and have 2.

    If you travel the world (or even this country) you’ll find that those living in abject poverty and poor health tend to have more kids than those living healthier and wealthier lives.

    A standard of health, education and finances must be met for the intelligent to have their children.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Ex-purging on Facebook before heading into marriage is very prudent, IMO.”

    You’ll get farther if you do it after the relationship.
    My 2 cents.

    Also, me and my wife have made a combined Facebook account. (Not necessarily difficult as we only have about 75 friends-family among us with quite a bit of overlap.)

  • Lokland

    @PJ, 640

    STFU.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, a man who is obsessed with “the shadow of the past” even when there is no reason to be is, in all likelihood, genuinely insecure in the insulting sense of the term. In his case, the insult is descriptive.

    However, when the attempt is made to extend the label “insecure” to any and all concern about N (quantity or quality), then the insult is just an insult. As such, it sheds head but not light, sews mistrust, and obscures rather than clarifies the topic at hand.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However, when the attempt is made to extend the label “insecure” to any and all concern about N (quantity or quality), then the insult is just an insult.

      You’ve really moved the goalposts here – this is the first debate I can recall where “quality” is part of the mix. In any case, I think it’s mostly academic, as most men will have no real way of assessing past relationship partners, and will have to rely on the woman’s demonstration of love and affection to make a judgment.

  • Ramble

    I don’t hate Steve Sailer – as you say I haven’t really read him, so I’m not qualified to pass judgment.

    Susan, I was only going by what you had said in an earlier post as to why you never read him.

    The post you linked to is great

    His posts are always great. He is, in my opinion, the most important blogger there is. However, he is constantly talking about subjects that many “progressive” people would rather not think about it, so he is rarely referenced in the mainstream media lest they get “Watsoned”.

  • Josie88

    @ Abbot and Angel guy
    Now I understood what my old sisters meant when they were shaming me and my younger for rejecting older men based on appearances.

    I definitely remember being a teenage girl and was shamed about being hesitant about dating a guy a decade older than me. Obviously my instinct was correct, and they were wrong.

    He was a total sleazebag. This was this guy, (40 years old and divorced with kids,) that was interested in my then 16 year old pretty sister.
    He would be a catch to my 30 something divorced sisters with children, because he runs his own business.

    We girls came from working class parents. Dating him was a step-up and my parents and sisters come from a tradition and mindset that dating a much older man is ok.

    My pretty teenage sister work for him part-time during the summer. When he expressed interests in my adult-looking teenage sister, my 30 something sister try to persuade her to give him a shot and drop the less accomplished but 3 years older boyfriend that she was dating at that time.

    My teenage sister chooses her boyfriend to the shocked of my older sister and the 40 year old guy. She and her boyfriend are still together and are attending community college while working part time.

    As I grew older, I did come to understand my sisters’ mindset about youth is fleeting and that rejecting a guy for his looks is shallow.

    I would like to defend the 35 year old woman that is resentful of the 35 man that is dating a 25 year old woman. Maybe when she was 25, she never came in contact with any guys over 30 when she as that age.

    Maybe she did meet a few guys that were in their 30s, but they were players?

    When I was working part-time to support myself through college, the only guys I met was college guys, older married college professors, and at my jobs, married/divorced women with kids. The guys that did work there were middle age and married.

  • Mireille

    @Escoffier,

    Don’t put words in my mouth; a man can wonder and ask, that is perfectly reasonable in the exchange of info regarding romantic history; where I disagree is when that information leads to pathologically crippling thoughts that can sabotage a potential relationship. I’d think that the guy I like is not seeing me for the qualities (love, care, support…) I bring because he’s too busy having an imaginary dick contest with my exes. While I can make sure he knows how I feel about him and keep it consistent, I cannot fight ghosts and become his therapist if that problem is deep seated; it’s beyond my reach and I’d unfortunately move on to another partner who’ll use this energy more constructively.

  • Abbot

    “The only problem with hypergamy is when a woman wants better to the point she can’t get it and then has to settle.”

    But it is “finding yourself” so the multi-penis-product who emerges is inarguably affected mentally from her perspective. From the male victim-prospect’s perspective, her sexual gloss is gone and the specialness he desires is not being delivered. Then the only possible way to turn all this around is for the next generation of women to learn from this disaster and refuse to repeat it.

  • Mike C

    I don’t think that’s what Mireille was saying at all. She observed that a man’s needing to view and judge a roster of past bf’s is insecure. I don’t see how you can argue that point. A man who was secure in his partner’s affection and sexual attraction would have no need to compare, right?

    You say tomato, I say tomato. Fine, call it “insecure”. If that is the case, then the vast majority of men are “insecure” because most men are going to want to compare themselves to her previous “roster”. Whether you think it is rational or warranted is basically irrelevant. Call it the male hamster if you’d like, but many of us are trying to communicate that is falling on deaf ears is that this is an aspect of the male POV/psychology that exists. And it does have potential to rear its head and be destabilizing. You want to immediately filter any man who shows any tendency for this. Go for it. All you single women will reduce your eligible pool of men to a fraction. Good luck with that.

    Again, I’ll point to Hope because she just gets it on a level that basically no one else does here. One way to minimize this effect is to be persuasive to your SO of just how awesome he is. That will minimize the concerns over past fuck phantoms and how you compare.

    This is one of those threads where frankly I come away thinking “just aint gonna understand”. You’ve got a great number of male commenters repeating and echoing the EXACT same thing, telling you exactly how male psychology works in this regard in terms of past boyfriends and comparing, and rather than just accept it at face value, many keep telling us how we SHOULD FEEL. Just as men do NOT get to define for women what is sexually attractive otherwise most would probably toss things like “confidence” and social status out the window, women do NOT get to define for men what makes them feel “secure” in a relationship. There are many aspects of sexual attraction/relationships that don’t make much logical sense, but we viscerally feel what we do….both sexes. If we want to be purely logical, then it is stupid to think of a high N guy who tests negative for all STDs as having a “trash dick”. Obviously, there is no leftover vagina juices from previous sexual partners.

    Men compare. Its what we do. We are always measuring ourself against other men across a variety of metrics. In fact, I’d argue that comparing is one of the things at the root of striving for achievement and competition. We want to be BETTER then the other guy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      You want to immediately filter any man who shows any tendency for this. Go for it. All you single women will reduce your eligible pool of men to a fraction. Good luck with that.

      I have never in my life heard of a guy grilling his gf about her past partners. If anything, it’s the opposite – guys would rather not have that specific information, because it festers and increases their feelings of insecurity. Instead they choose to experience the relationship in the moment, and to judge its quality based on actions and communication.

      Like any couple, my husband and I shared our histories, but I cannot recall a single time when he acted suspicious or threatened. I would have considered that a red flag.

      Again, I’ll point to Hope because she just gets it on a level that basically no one else does here.

      FTR, this is the kind of comment that sets up an even more adversarial dynamic. Please stop choosing teams all the time.

      Men compare. Its what we do. We are always measuring ourself against other men across a variety of metrics. In fact, I’d argue that comparing is one of the things at the root of striving for achievement and competition. We want to be BETTER then the other guy.

      Right, and women have no place in that competition. That’s between you boys. Mireille’s right, it’s not our job to spoon feed you some narrative where you’re the BETTER man. Based on your sense of self via lifelong intrasexual competition, you should be able to satisfy yourself as to whether a woman is in love with you or not, is dying to have sex with you or not. This is not rocket science!

  • Escoffier

    Hope,

    I was never out to marry the prettiest girl I could find, nor even the smartest. I was out to get the *best* girl I could find, both best-simply and best-for-me.

    And I did, so it worked out.

  • Kiwi

    “Escoffier, that’s good to hear. So what you’re saying is, her great “beta” traits more than make up for her slightly less “alpha” looks. ”

    The same principle works in the reverse. Looks are not everything. A girl may have dated a stellar looking guy in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for the lack of an 8 pack or a perfectly symmetrical face or full head of thick, dark, curly hair or huge, deep brown eyes or whatever else made her ex stand out physically.

    Its ridiculous to expect to measure up in every single small nit picky way to an ex. OCD much?

  • Tomato

    “You said it was that guy’s fault that he is marrying a woman who isn’t into him, except for his money, right? How are we supposed to know that as men if we do not investigate a woman’s past? Telepathy?”

    Um…her present behaviors and actions? Do those get taken into account at all? Or does the past always override the present? Because I know a lot of men and women who did incredibly stupid things when they were young, they learned from it, and they moved on. Are they condemned for life?

  • Ramble

    That ties in with what I’ve said in the past about male competition determining status, which is how women select men.

    Yes, that is what you have been saying, and, No, it is not correct.

    Women rely on how females create hierarchies, not on how men do. However, there is often a good amount of overlap. One area where there is not much overlap, is that of the wanna-be rockstar, who clean up better than any QB alive.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “Of course, and that goes both ways. That’s why being the rebound is never a good idea. In the case you mentioned, why did the husband not perceive that his wife was never satisfied? How does one miss that?”

    Well, I don’t think he was a direct rebound. This guy was from years before (I think). But, also, recognize the contradiction here. On the one hand, guys aren’t supposed to evidence any “insecurity” (shaming language alert) by worrying about such things, since he should be confident enough to know that if she’s with him, it’s all cool. Yet, on the other hand, somehow if he didn’t sniff this out before they were married, he royally fucked up. So, are we supposed to be suspicious about such things? Or not?

    P.S. She told my wife much more than she wanted to hear, on a regular basis. So, I have no idea if he even knows to this day that the guy she took up with was a boyfriend from the past that she started seeing again before they split. He may well believe this is a guy she met later. I’m not close enough to him to ask/reveal that, and haven’t seen him for a while.

  • Kiwi

    “Don’t put words in my mouth; a man can wonder and ask, that is perfectly reasonable in the exchange of info regarding romantic history; where I disagree is when that information leads to pathologically crippling thoughts that can sabotage a potential relationship. I’d think that the guy I like is not seeing me for the qualities (love, care, support…) I bring because he’s too busy having an imaginary dick contest with my exes. ”

    Such men should just find out where those exes are now and date them for himself!

    A little too much thinking about other dudes for hetero tastes.

  • Ramble

    Emo singer songwriter
    DJ

    These guys are usually ridiculed beyond belief.

    And, IME, most non-frat guys hold (serious) frat guys in contempt (i.e. the idea that you need to “buy” your friends).

    By “serious”, I mean those frat-boys that feel that their fraternity is “important” to them.

  • Kiwi

    ” One way to minimize this effect is to be persuasive to your SO of just how awesome he is. That will minimize the concerns over past fuck phantoms and how you compare.”

    If she is negatively comparing you to past partners verbally then I get it. I had a partner who did this to me and it made me feel like shit. However if she’s not saying anything then why fret over it? The phantoms seem to be singing in the opera of your mind, not hers.

  • mr. wavevector

    @Hope,

    I’ve read similar things. There was one quote that went something like, “Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.” Those restrictions don’t square with the idea of a “free” society very well, which may be why there is so much tension surrounding this topic.

    If capitalism is polygamy, then religion was the trade union, helping the working man get his share. Past tense – both religion and trade unions aren’t what they used to be.

    Freedom doesn’t guarantee happiness or stability, unfortunately.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Realist. All I am is aware of what is good, what is bad, the affects those things have and where I stand on the hierarchy.

    “I understand that not every guy gets to be a top male, but that doesn’t mean it’s hopeless, and that he cannot find a mate.”

    I disagree. There is a line below which there is no hope.

    “I think that realistically speaking, there is a small percentage of both women and men who will not have the opportunity to mate.”

    You agree. We just don’t agree about where it is.

    “A lot of what I get from you is the sense that you want to be one of those top males, and it pisses you off that you can’t be.”

    No. I think I told you that when I was in high school I was upset not because I wasn’t getting laid but because I didn’t have a girlfriend.

    When going to university it was because I wasn’t a player.

    My expectations are very much dependent upon the environment I am in.

    One of the things I learned in both those environments is that attainment is not good enough. Just getting laid or getting the girlfriend is not enough. The end result will be infidelity on the part of the woman.

    One must be better than the base line required.

    In our society that baseline is a different women every weekend.
    Without that infidelity is an inevitability.

    ——————-

    I think I’ve made it clear that I want to be a father. Let me make it clearer. I baby sit my nieces/nephews regularly because I enjoy it.

    My nieces flew from china to spend the Summer with me and my wife (for about a month before the wedding).

    I love kids and very much want to be a father.

    But to be a father requires the ability to get laid. Or else those kids will be taken away along with half my assets.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One must be better than the base line required.

      In our society that baseline is a different women every weekend.
      Without that infidelity is an inevitability.

      This is where I believe you go wrong, but I won’t attempt to change your mind.

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  • Escoffier

    Susan, are female college freshmen *really* that naive? Considering the crazy early sexualization of children today, it seems incredible that any girl could reach age 18 and not realize that some huge percentage of the guys hitting on her weren’t interested only or primarily in easy sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      it seems incredible that any girl could reach age 18 and not realize that some huge percentage of the guys hitting on her weren’t interested only or primarily in easy sex.it seems incredible that any girl could reach age 18 and not realize that some huge percentage of the guys hitting on her weren’t interested only or primarily in easy sex.

      Of course they expect that – which is why nearly all of them will run away from the drunk frat rat who tries to grab their breast and drag them upstairs. It’s the Hoyt Thorpes who do most of the damage. This explains why hooking up drops off dramatically after freshman year and is unusual by senior year.

  • Passer_By

    @lokland

    I’m not getting you here. You’re married now, and you’re fretting over this? And, by that, I don’t mean you are acknowledging an abstract issue, but specifically fretting over your own circumstances? Did your wife used to date Roissy? Or Zach or Jason?

  • Abbot

    “women do NOT get to define for men what makes them feel “secure” in a relationship.”

    A major sore point for nearly all Western women. Egos block admission of such, but none, not one, will deny it.

  • Lokland

    “The average freshman girl who gets burned by a cad didn’t choose a cad – she went in thinking she had met a good guy who wanted to be her boyfriend. That’s why they’re called cads. So she chose a “good guy,” only he didn’t turn out to be so good after all.”

    Why was the cad-fake-good-guy hotter than the good guy in approximately 100% of cases?

    ——–

    Also to note;

    I’ve never been intimidated about a woman’s past boyfriend based on anything other than how they look.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why was the cad-fake-good-guy hotter than the good guy in approximately 100% of cases?

      He has an intuitive understanding of female emotion. He knows what to say, how to say it, and at what pace. He is oh so sincere. He knows that he should describe how he promised his little sister he would attend her tea party on his next visit home. And that he should talk a lot about how he admires his dad, a man of real character. That he should make a real effort with her friends, and arrange to have his friends tell her how much he likes her, that this is something new and different for him, a real “game changer.”

      He is probably handsome, but not always. He escalates sexually very gradually. He seeks opportunities to hold hands. He kisses the tips of noses and eyelids. He loves to spoon, and is happy to spend the night and sleep in the same bed without “doing anything you don’t want to do.”

      He is good at keeping this up for approximately 3 weeks. Then it is touchdown and Game Over. Vanished.

      Every thing in this example is real, though not all cases have all the same elements.

  • Ramble

    As I said, I think women use self-confidence as a proxy. If a guy comes across as comfortable in his own skin, we figured he did OK in the male sweepstakes.

    No, no, no.

    Susan, we have been through this many times, and, on at least one occasion, you acted as if you finally had a Eureka in understanding how this works.

    If girls genuinely cared about male hierarchies then Justin Bieber and the Jonas brothers would not be able to get a date and the Applied Math majors would be cleaning up. Of course, we know that the exact opposite is true.

    Girls care about the things that girls care about. What turns them on and attracts them has some overlap with how men will, or might, arrange themselves socially. But they are not the same.

    It is somewhat analogous to how men and women look at female beauty.

    If you were to get a top ten hottest/prettiest list (of girls) from both males and females, you probably would not find that many that made both lists. However, there would be some definite commonalities. For instance, both lists would have slim girls, however, the girls-list of pretty-girls would be, on average, slimmer than the list made from guys.

    Both lists would have girls with perky tits, however the guys lists would likely have larger tits, again, on average.

    So, you could easily find some overlap in what factored into each list, but, ultimately, they would not be the same.

    Girls care about the things that girls care about. And, status, as appraised by females, is high on that list. Guys who become freshman professors at MIT, however, do not gain much status…sadly.

  • Kiwi

    “When it comes to virgin, there is no competition. Thus, a man who is bad in bed can never be compared to her other lovers because she got none. ”

    But she can still complain about his lack of bedroom skills.

    She can also compare her lack of orgasms with him to her explosive masturbation orgasms.

    Sorry but self-improvement is a journey that will have to be taken either way.

  • Lokland

    @PB

    “And, by that, I don’t mean you are acknowledging an abstract issue, but specifically fretting over your own circumstances? Did your wife used to date Roissy? Or Zach or Jason?”

    No.

    I’m well aware of how the abstract issue works and cannot help to apply it to my own situation to see the outcome. (Which could be called reverse-solipsism?)

    Her only past boyfriend, no clue what he looks like, know he was significantly richer than I am.

    Don’t care.

  • John G

    Hi There;

    Lurker and occasional poster here. This is for some of you, I’ll just leave this here….

    http://www.systemcomic.com/comics/2011-08-03-madaboutsomething.jpg

  • Kiwi

    “Why was the cad-fake-good-guy hotter than the good guy in approximately 100% of cases?”

    Easy. He may have been better looking. Or funnier, wittier, more social or just had an overall more engaging personality. But probably in many or even most cases he may have been at least slightly better looking.

  • Escoffier

    It’s not the first time quality has come up, I know you don’t buy the idea of the “alpha widow” but it’s ultimately the same issue.

    Anyway, as Mike C noted, we’re just trying to give you ladies a little insight into the male psyche. Most of us would run from high N and, by the same token, many guys will not want a girl with a real star in her past because we would conclude–rightly or wrongly–“I can’t compete with that, and I don’t want to be settled for or second best.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      many guys will not want a girl with a real star in her past because we would conclude–rightly or wrongly–”I can’t compete with that, and I don’t want to be settled for or second best.”

      Perhaps ignorance is bliss then. It seems unlikely that if you go digging you’re going to ever find a way to be reassured. It’s like the women who steal looks at their boyfriend’s text messages. The best they can hope for is no evidence that he cheated. They can never prove he wouldn’t. If a woman is making you feel desirable and loved, why go looking for trouble? I don’t get it.

  • Passer_By

    John. G. , you’re big fat gay face makes no sense!! So, shut up!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “you should be able to satisfy yourself as to whether a woman is in love with you or not, is dying to have sex with you or not. This is not rocket science!”

    Actually, it is.

    Women have a very real reason to lie to you and fake wanting to have sex with you.

    Its called cuckolding.

    ———-

    I realize women don’t have the same issue wrt sex, guys are pretty much always DTF.
    But; are you all not having great difficulty sorting out these cads vs. dads, its not rocket science after all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women have a very real reason to lie to you and fake wanting to have sex with you.

      Its called cuckolding.

      What woman sets out to deceive some beta guy so that she can cuckold him later?

  • Kiwi

    “Girls care about the things that girls care about. And, status, as appraised by females, is high on that list. Guys who become freshman professors at MIT, however, do not gain much status…sadly.”

    If they are really good looking they can.
    People’s eyes notice the really good lookers in society, its what eyes do. If on top of it a good looker shows interest in us and does not come off totally creepy, its on.

    Most people are merely average at best looking and will have to work on improving their looks if they want eyes to do their thang. Freshman professors at MIT are not exempt from having to make themselves look more physically attractive if they want to catch eyes.

  • Aimee

    Hey, I have a question for all the guys who are raging at the idea that a woman might have dated a guy they personally consider a “better catch” than they are themselves, and acting like this makes her an untrustworthy bitch who must be looking down on them.

    If you dated a perfect 10 with everything that women consider desirable in themselves, and then things ended between you and you took up with a girl who considers herself less of a catch than the ex, would you consider it reasonable for her to get an attitude towards you and act like you should be ashamed of yourself for having dated above her level, before you met her? Would you consider it reasonable for her to assume that you are ~settling~ for her, and that you secretly still want women like the ex and think that she, as your current, is just the leavings that you grudgingly accepted because you figured you couldn’t do better?

    Would you accept this kind of behavior, or would you call her irrationally jealous and bitchy? Because it seems to me that the general attitude here is “man is jealous of woman’s exes = normal and entirely her fault for dating other men before him, while woman is jealous of man’s exes = she is crazy and obsessive about things that don’t matter.”

    Had she been riding the carousel for many a round, then yeah, I’d be a bit worried. Has she only had a couple of men, well, unless she has made it absolutely crystal clear that she considers you a step down, then maybe she DOESN’T think you less of a man then her exes.

    One last note. If you, before meeting or dating her, dated a lot, and especially if you’ve ever had a higher SMV woman than she is, you have NO room to complain about the fact that before meeting or dating you, she dated a lot or that she once had a higher SMV man than you. When you do, you just come off as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. You can’t go out and ride all the women you can and then think you deserve a perfect 10 virgin who thinks you hung the moon.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Sorting out cads and dads…

    I know a female former coworker whose husband used to lie to women to get them in bed, and he would even tell them he loved them. Now the guy is a dad to a daughter, and he says he will forbid her from dating, probably because he was such a liar in his past.

    The world is murky shades of gray, not strictly black and white.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “In our society that baseline is a different women every weekend.
    Without that infidelity is an inevitability.

    This is where I believe you go wrong, but I won’t attempt to change your mind.”

    Correction;

    I don’t know what the base line is but I know that based upon my height regardless of what I do I’m either in a hopeless situation or very close to it.

    A sure fire way to tell I’m good would have been to get laid a lit prior.

    You seem to think I’m being unrealistic but if theres was a book titled “please come try and make me raise another mans child” there would be a giant picture of my face on the cover.

    I am the textbook definition of who to cheat on.

  • Escoffier

    Aimee, you set up that question with such impartiality!

  • Kiwi

    Josie on Da Heffa,
    “Of course, men too have age limits. the difference between a 25 year old man and a 40 year old, is that the 25 year old has youth and the promise of wealth whereas the 40 year old must already be established and accomplished. There are outliners like Huge Hefner and his 20-something wives.”

    They aren’t his wives in the traditional sense. He pays them millions and they have same age and younger lovers whom they get their sexual satisfaction from. Duh, that’s a no brainer.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I guess you and I differ on how to interpret that book because I think Charlotte should have seen right through Hoyt. I can list the reasons if you like, but Wolfe lays them out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think Charlotte should have seen right through Hoyt.

      Yes, as middle aged readers we see that. 18 yo girls do not see that. I would have totally fallen for Hoyt. In fact, as a mother I totally approved of a Hoyt, never suspecting that he was cheating and lying from the start. There’s a reason sociopaths are successful with women. It’s not because women like jerks, it’s because they play the good guy with no pangs of conscience.

  • Kiwi

    “The Failed Female Strategy of Life Splitting”

    Susan, I think the title of this post has now changed to
    “The Failed Male Strategy of Hair Splitting Details”
    aka ” Lady Boner Killers”.

  • Lokland

    @Susan. 684

    I’ve done all those things as well. Many times over, all with women whom I’ve dated.

    Why did some women choose me and only me whereas others had to try something first?

  • Aimee

    @Escoffier: I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not…
    I’m coming from the perspective of a 25 year old virgin who refuses to consider any man with N>2 as dateable. I am hoping to wait sex until marriage, and I don’t expect men who want a lot of sex to consider me desirable. This is probably why I am in my first relationship, at age 25, having never before been so much as looked at for more than a few seconds by any guy. I know for a fact that my guy has dated at least one woman who would be generally considered more of a catch than me, but I don’t see how this is relevant to me because they broke up; clearly, since he pursued me and made me his girlfriend, he wants me more than he wanted her. Most of the people I hang out with are dating. None of them really have any issues with each other’s pasts; admittedly, this may be an age thing, as we’re all in our early 20’s, or a culture thing, as none of us are partiers or club-hoppers, and—this may be key—none of us are bed-hoppers, male or female.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aimee

      Well said, all of it.

      and—this may be key—none of us are bed-hoppers, male or female.

      I do think that is key. Whether a person is or has been promiscuous should be fairly obvious. It’s not hard to detect who is restricted vs. unrestricted in their sexual behavior.

      If men don’t want to worry about alphas in a woman’s past, they should avoid former carousel riders.

      Admittedly, for the most restricted men, this is a problem. If they know they would DQ any woman who had ever had a ONS for example, (around half), then they’re going to have to do some real sleuthing to get that information. However, the virgin or woman who has never had a ONS can easily say “Definitely not!” and would not find it an inappropriate question.

  • Lokland

    “clearly, since he pursued me and made me his girlfriend, he wants me more than he wanted her.”

    Men don’t receive this assurance as we are the ones that pursue.

  • Aimee

    Should also add that since my bf is the first guy to ever consider me desirable, I could be thinking myself inferior to most women since guys generally don’t want me as anything but a friend at most. I don’t, though. I don’t really understand this idea that people’s worth is solely tied to who they can get into bed or into marriage.

  • Escoffier

    Aimee, if you are not bothered, then there is no problem. Case closed.

    My sense is that this bothers guys more than girls, which may be why you are not bothered. Hope is the only girl who has said she would be bothered and she, I suspect, an outlier on this one.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Please, I was being intentionally dense.
    My apologies. In my defense like Sheldon I don’t get sarcasm. Hubby and I joke that the baby will get sarcasm before I do. We are probably right. :(

    “How many women enjoy having their boyfriend’s ex be a lot hotter/thinner/sexual than them? If your man said it was over with their ex, would you let him hang out with her still? Why not? Do women ever feel in competition with exes? Is that just insecurity as well that they should just get over or move on if they feel it?”
    Surprisingly no. But is not so much about the exes but about my husband. He is not the ‘dwelling in the past’ type. If he though those women were good enough to be his wife he would had found a way to marry them. The fact that I got the ring and not them means he though I was better regardless of anything I might see. Also Nerd former model that cooks, loves kids and sex, is happy, easy going don’t believe in divorce and considers him the best man on Earth? Hard to top that ;). He will have to be an idiot not to see me as the best deal and I didn’t married an idiot ;)

    A lot of men go for the arm candy and ignore the fact that the woman can barely stand the sight of them. It’s the tradeoff for an SMV mismatch.
    That is SOME men particular conundrum. They want a woman that consider then the best man they can get. Dating down 1 to 2 points in the SMV will achieve nicely this but they don’t do because they want also the same hotties the top men easily have. As hard to achieve as women with the Alpha that is faithful to them. Maybe they all should move to North Korea.

  • Aimee

    You go for her…that means you think you have a chance, yes? She accepts your advances and becomes your gf, or your wife…that should mean that she likes you better than the other men around :/ It’s possible I don’t understand this mindset because I don’t hang out with people who jump from relationship to relationship, or date for the sake of sex, but I still don’t think that a man has more right to flip out over his gf’s exes than she does to flip out over his. Unless a) the ex is constantly coming around and displaying courting behavior towards her, and she accepts this courtship behavior, or b) she talks about the ex as someone she still thinks about a lot or compares you to him unfavorably. If this person is entirely in her past, then you will need to accept that they are GONE from her life, and that YOU are her man right now. And as I said, men who judge and become angry at women for doing the same things that they have done themselves, especially if they expect the women to accept those actions from them, are being ridiculous.

  • Ramble

    Funny how a man knowing what he wants and sticking to it, in the face of massive contrary cultural pressure–direct and indirect, personal and impersonal–now counts in some minds as “insecure” when, according to the dictionary definition, the real meaning would be closer to the exact opposite.

    Well said.

  • Lokland

    “What woman sets out to deceive some beta guy so that she can cuckold him later?”

    Two part answer,

    1. The one who has to.
    2. Not intentional, very likely subconscious decision, much like the original settling for the beta in the first place. Not a process that requires active thought.

  • Escoffier

    Susan,

    It’s not that a guy is looking for trouble, it’s that the question lurks in the background. If he finds a girl who does not cause the question to come to the forefront of his mind, then he’s fine, it’s been “answered” by the lack of contrary evidence. But the question will likely have already been there, it had to be addressed somehow.

    Other guys won’t ask but will see signs that their “hamsters” will interpret one way or another. And others, for whatever reason, will just know.

    I doubt that many guys dig, but most will want reassurance in some form or another.

  • Ramble

    I have to scratch my head at the women demanding a “rational” explanation for (most) men’s desire for a low-N girl, and the attempts by some to provide that explanation. Not that I am against rational explanations, I love them, so by all means, answer as best you can.

    But the demand for justification is just another attempt to “re-frame.” The implicit foundation is, “This want of yours is irrational and unjust unless you can come up with a reason I will accept.” And, of course, most such reasons are not accepted. Which is the whole point, to “re-frame” high(er) N as “normal” and not something subject to legitimate objection.

    Again, well said.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the very first time they meet, Hoyt takes her upstairs to try to screw her and–as if his intention were not by that point perfectly clear–he interrupts Vance in the process of same, and–as if it weren’t BY THEN perfectly clear–Vance spills the beans unambigiously by what he says.

    So, there really could not be any doubt about Hoyt. Wolfe makes clear from Charlotte’s interior monologue that she thinks she is “taming the beast” and has him “under control.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I stand corrected, I don’t remember the exact details. Suffice to say there are Hoyts who don’t give away the game so early and obviously – and of course most girls have not just arrived from Appalachia. I do recall feeling certain that Charlotte truly believed Hoyt loved her.

  • Aimee

    my main issue on this thing is the same underlying principle I see from a lot of male commenters, not just here, but on other blogs. The idea that “As men, we can do what we like regarding sex and dating, but women should do what we want them to do, and although we can judge them for their actions, they don’t get to judge us for ours.” You can’t expect an ideal woman if you haven’t acted ideally yourself. This goes both ways, of course, but in the blogosphere at least I see more of it from men than from women. No one says you have to date someone you consider beneath your level, but don’t get upset if someone you do want to date considers you beneath their level. No one says you can’t try to go above your level, but don’t get upset if that person doesn’t give you what you wanted on the grounds that you are below their level. If you choose to date a person who is a certain way, you don’t get to take an attitude towards them for being that way when you chose them knowingly. nor do they get to take an attitude towards you on such grounds. Basically, what I’m saying here is don’t think you have the right to excuse yourself for actions that you don’t allow in others.

  • Tomato

    “I am the textbook definition of who to cheat on.”

    May I ask why?

  • Lokland

    @Aimee

    Welcome to HUS, I’ve never seen you before.

    “should mean that she likes you better than the other men around”

    I think I said this earlier but by nature some people will always be parasitic and there is no way to tell who is who based on a quick look.
    Finding in congruencies is the only way to catch a liar.

    “:/ It’s possible I don’t understand this mindset because I don’t hang out with people who jump from relationship to relationship, or date for the sake of sex, but I still don’t think that a man has more right to flip out over his gf’s exes”

    I came from a similar friend group.
    I abhor the idea of having to date a woman who has ever changed types but I’ve never had too. The angst is entirely hypothetical.

  • Lokland

    @Tomato

    High provisioning capacity, desire to be active father, low genetic quality.

  • Passer_By

    Aimee, I’m not one who is adament about this like Esco or lokland, but the analogy doesn’t hold. Women are hypergamous, men are polygynous. Your boyfriend will not be wishing he was with some hot ex – you can actually take comfort in the fact that he had to pursue you (likely), but also that men who have mates that are fit, pleasant and into them, rarely sit around wishing for someone hotter. What they secretly may wish for (but understand is unreasonable) is more. In other words, the guy with a hard 9 for a wife still would like (at a base level) to bang the 7 at work. Doesn’t mean he will do it if offered, but that’s his base instinct.

    Further, it is far less likely that a guy will have been used and spit out by a higher smv woman (other than as a LJBF friendzone type) than it would be for a woman to have been used and spit out by a higher SMV guy. Women rarely like to have sex or get involved with lower smv guys (that hypergamy thing again).

    I guess maybe the guy you should avoid is the chump beta orbiter who spent years being taken advantage of (not sexually, in other ways) by some really hot woman who had no interest in him, and who is now with you but doesn’t jump to your wishes the way he did with her. I think I’d resent that if I was a woman. I guess it’s the best analogy I can come up with.

  • Mike C

    You’ve really moved the goalposts here -this is the first debate I can recall where “quality” is part of the mix. In any case, I think it’s mostly academic, as most men will have no real way of assessing past relationship partners, and will have to rely on the woman’s demonstration of love and affection to make a judgment.

    IDK about that. Perhaps my experience has been way different, but in both my serious LTRs we talked about people we had previously dated and their characteristics and attributes. Even with a couple of my short-term flings and FWB, the subject came up. Can I assess a past relationship partner in depth? Of course not, but I can make judgement calls based on surface level factors. I’m going to say it again…it is about CONGRUENCE in dating history and preference for male “types”.

    I’ll use myself as an example. I have some SMV attributes where I think I stack up quite high against most men, and others where perhaps I am just the average guy. I’m tall so I have no reason to be “insecure” about my height. If a woman dated a bunch of tall guys previously, I could care less. I measure up to them. Now if I were 5’5″ and all the previous boyfriends were over 6 feet tall, I’m going to be “insecure” about that. Why has she shifted preferences? Is it because she is just as attracted to me as those other guys, or she couldn’t get a guy over 6 feet tall to commit so now she is settling.

    In my case, I’m not particularly socially dominant. I’m not the guy who is going to go in a room of strangers and by the end of the night have taken over the room. I was never President of Student Council, or President of the Frat, or BMOC. I put very little value on social status or social climbing. Now if I dated a woman who previously had dated a frat president, or BMOC, or big name in the community, or a top level business executive that is well known, or even a celebrity, I’m going to be “insecure” about that. That would be one area where I know objectively I am inferior to those other men. In order to be “secure”, I would have to know that I am superior to them across other metrics.

    You’ve often said that being unrestricted is a “red flag” and I actually agree (you’ve said this about me). My best guess is the rate of infidelity amongst unrestricted is higher. But any single case might be different. Similarly, I would argue a woman who pursues a BMOC type and then switches to a brainy type is a red flag. Those are two entirely different types of men. It suggests something is “off” even if like in your example you disprove having any concern. The issue is what is it that led you to have the relationship with the BMOC? What were you chasing? Status for yourself? Validation? Now when you switch, the guy has to get comfortable with the idea that those things really are not priorities for you anymore. That might include asking direct questions about the past, or might just be observing present behavior like interaction with high status men.

    Passerby had it right, and it is that there is a catch 22 at work here. Men can’t ask or investigate the past without being “insecure” (intended as a pejorative insult) but are at fault if they end up with a woman like Passerbys example or my example that genuinely is settling. This investigating past history is part of the male filtering process for relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My best guess is the rate of infidelity amongst unrestricted is higher. But any single case might be different.

      It’s 50% higher and yes, of course any single case might be different. It’s about assessing risk. Women who marry unrestricted men with high N run a high risk of being cheated on and getting divorced. Why risk it when there are so many men who do not come with that baggage? It’s precisely the same reason men dislike high N in women – the risk of being cuckolded. Sure the odds are low that your wife will actually bear another man’s child, but you obviously are unwilling to take that risk.

      . Similarly, I would argue a woman who pursues a BMOC type and then switches to a brainy type is a red flag. Those are two entirely different types of men. It suggests something is “off” even if like in your example you disprove having any concern. The issue is what is it that led you to have the relationship with the BMOC? What were you chasing? Status for yourself? Validation? Now when you switch, the guy has to get comfortable with the idea that those things really are not priorities for you anymore.

      This is a pretty silly set of questions. It would be like me demanding an explanation for why you dated the most beautiful and kind woman on campus. Because you could. When the handsomest, most athletic, student leader in school falls for you, what’s not to like? He’s gorgeous, he’s well respected, and he’s really, really nice. Do I want to go to your formal! YES! Do I want to be your girlfriend? YES! And he was no cad – a good and honorable guy throughout. I dated him for three years. Did I enjoy the status? You bet. The validation? Uh huh. So why did I break up with him? Because over time it became apparent we were not really compatible for the long-term. He was very stoic – no emo. I wanted more expression of feeling. He was not super bright. Gene pool dilution alert. I didn’t want to have dumb sons. And his sex drive was lower than mine. :P

      There is nothing incongruent about dating someone completely different next time around. Why should I have to sign on for a certain type? Perhaps I learned that I was willing to forego inguinal creases for 25 IQ points. Or that a guy who was uninhibited and good at sex was a big step up from the myth of the Greek God’s prowess.

      Is your fiancee just like your ex-wife? Should she be threatened by that?

  • Mireille

    This is really a straw man party; while some are considering the usual turpitudes of life, some always bring it back to those 20% no one cares about. I get it that some guys are hurt because they’re short or not hot or not in the sexy professions and so on. All I can say is women meet or see limits too: it is inherent to human life; I don’t know if that is the reason why some think I’m dismissing their feelings, but all I’m saying is that in the big scheme of things, it’s pretty irrelevant.
    If you’re in a relationship and feel less than, if that anguish comes from your GF past, make you peace with it, control it and NEVER show for how long you want to remain together; if however you feel your GF is acting all nostalgic and doesn’t treat you right, GTFOH, simple as that.

  • Escoffier

    Charlotte runs out the frat house indignant that night. But then her snobby roomate and some other girls tease her about being seen with Hoyt and she gets a status thrill from that. Later, Hoyt tries to “rescue” her when the drunk lax player is coming on to her at the tailgate party and gets his ass whooped in the process. Charlotte goes to “thank” him and ends up being a kind of nurse for a while as he escalates (rather slowly, as you say). But she visits him at the frat many, many times and sees the other girls parade through. She knows what’s going on, in general, she just thinks she will be different.

  • Tomato

    Lokland, I am honestly sorry that you feel that way. Does your wife know how you feel? Do you worry about what she might do? Is there anything you can do to get rid of or reduce those feelings?

  • Aimee

    @Passer-By, if what you say is true then women should be the nervous ones and men shouldn’t be so worried, because women will want to stay with one man while men will want to go out and cheat. In my own life, I’ve seen both men get used by women and women get used by men in fairly equal numbers, so I can’t agree with you there (admittedly this is anecdata.) I’ve seen that last example you gave play out irl, and the guy finally wised up and is now with a very nice girl who, while she isn’t bothered by the fact, is glad that the ex is gone…but she doesn’t think that her boy wants to ditch her if he can find someone “better.” I know people will have desires outside of their relationship, but as long as they don’t indulge these desires or make them a focus over and above their partner, I don’t see how it’s necessarily a big issue. My bf and I are perfectly okay with admitting that someone else is nice-looking to each other, but neither of us would ever consider doing anything about it. I think a lot of the problems that are making an appearance here can be traced back to people of both sexes playing bedroom roulette—if you’ve been around a lot, you’re getting yourself into a mindset and a habit that says “Short term fun is what I’m after,” and it can unfit you for contentment in a LTR with just one person, whose habits and behaviors WILL annoy you in some ways, who WILL upset you sometimes, with whom you WILL argue, and who will NOT always be fun in the sun for you. I think that hopping from bed to bed is just a bad idea all around—but worse than that is thinking that “I can do it and no one can judge me, but I won’t accept someone to be with me who has done the same!” I’ve seen both guys and girls pull this.

  • INTJ

    @ Aimee

    It’s possible I don’t understand this mindset because I don’t hang out with people who jump from relationship to relationship, or date for the sake of sex, but I still don’t think that a man has more right to flip out over his gf’s exes than she does to flip out over his.

    That’s cause she has just as much right to flip out over his exes as he does hers. But generally, she won’t flip out, and will instead view him as preselected.

  • Lokland

    @Tomato

    “Does your wife know how you feel? Do you worry about what she might do? Is there anything you can do to get rid of or reduce those feelings?”

    No,
    No,
    No.

  • Passer_By

    @aimee

    “@Passer-By, if what you say is true then women should be the nervous ones and men shouldn’t be so worried, because women will want to stay with one man while men will want to go out and cheat.”

    Well, perhaps, but two things. First, his desire for more (polygyny), to the extent he has it (some guys don’t, just by their nature), typically has nothing to do with satisfaction or quality of his gf or wife. For that reason, he is less likely to dump you for it.

    Secondly, most men know this is an unreasonable desire, and cheating on a kind, devoted girfriends or spousing is shamed in our society. A woman dumping a guy to “follow her heart” or go for the gold is not similarly shamed or discouraged.

    “but she doesn’t think that her boy wants to ditch her if he can find someone “better.” ”

    Precisely, because very few guys think in those terms. They don’t have hypergamous impulses causing them to look to trade up. But I’m not even sure your example is on-point. You describe this woman as an “ex”, so by definition he wasn’t really a beta-orbiter who came to her beckon call all the time despite no interest on her part. Also, I don’t know if he treats his current gf with less adoration than the previous one.

  • OffTheCuff

    PJ’s blown up a perfectly good thread, yet again. Carnage! Blood!

    Realtionship Marxism: From each according to his ability. To each according her need.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “IIRC, only Sassy and I have seen Jason”

    Indeed. I’m going by our self-assessment, and your reports.

  • Passer_By

    Jason’s so good looking that I get a boner just reading his posts, and I’m not even gay.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Shut up PJ

    Now the guy is a dad to a daughter, and he says he will forbid her from dating, probably because he was such a liar in his past.

    Typical. The most jealous the father the more likely he wrecked havoc when young…Maybe I should start a list 101 reasons why high N guys should be avoided at all costs. :p

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Will answer your question in a moment, Susan.

    At 18, I didn’t really see through Hoyt, either. The whole idea is that the whole atmosphere is sexualized, it’s something you HAVE to participate in. So Hoyt took her to his room, so what? That’s how the culture operated. No alarm bells!

    At 18, I wasn’t very smart. I just had the general impression that college was going to be maybe not so great. Actually, I was accepted into several schools, finished reading that book, and decided I would rather live at home during my 4 years.

    Once I got a little bit older, the whole routine was just painfully obvious and even ridiculous. How could Charlotte be so dumb?!

  • Ramble

    Massive generalization aside, is this a male endorsement for hypergamy?

    Brilliant, Tomato! I never thought of that!

    On what planet is that brilliant?

    The guy wants to be certain that of all the guys she considered (and, that is, NOT spread her legs for), he was the absolute best.

    Now, that may not be particularly realistic, but it is certainly an understandable drive/desire.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      The guy wants to be certain that of all the guys she considered (and, that is, NOT spread her legs for), he was the absolute best.

      Right, so the guy is saying, “You’d better be pretty damned hypergamous, and I’d better be the best you could ever dream of.”

      Nice work if you can get it.

  • Passer_By

    I see Ana is adopting my refrain.

    P.S. Shut up, PJ.

  • Sassy6519

    Jason’s so good looking that I get a boner just reading his posts, and I’m not even gay.

    Hahahahahahaha!!!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I see Ana is adopting my refrain.

    P.S. Shut up, PJ.

    OTC brought it to my attention. I shall use it from now on. Instead of denouncing yet a new handle from HerPeJ

  • Aimee

    @Passer_By, I called her an ex because I really didn’t know what else to call her…they didn’t actually date, but for at least a couple of years she would be in and out of relationships all the time, and whenever she wasn’t in one she would just go and be all lovey with this one, sort of like he was her pet or something, her go-to when she didn’t have anyone else (she tended to ditch him when she had a bf.) She was quite free about telling the rest of us that she had no interest in him and that she knew he liked her. He put up with it because he was into her, till he met his now gf.

    If guys don’t have impulses urging them to trade up, why do wealthy men ditch their wives in middle age and go off with hot young things? You see it all the time with celebrities or with men who are just plain rich and/or powerful. I’m sure that if more men had the kind of resources to be able to do this, they would. The gap is shrinking, but men still cheat more often than women do, in marriage at least. It may be shamed in society, but it still happens more often than the other way around. Women initiate the majority of divorces, but are still statistically less likely to cheat on a current husband than a husband on his current wife. (How many of those wife-initiated divorces are occasioned by wife deciding to be with another man, I don’t know.) The likelihood of cheating rises as one’s N rises, so it does seem that, since men often tend to have higher N than the women they marry, this goes back to what I said earlier about people’s riding the carousel being a bad way to prepare for LTR or marriage. Men having lots of sex with the hottest women they can find isn’t any better than women having lots of sex with the hottest men they can find, and a man who does this before getting involved in a LTR has no leg to stand on if he complains that the woman did this before getting into that LTR. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say. If people want to ride the carousel, they should expect that the people who will want them afterwards will also have been carousel riders. If people want a restricted spouse with low N who will be faithful, odds will be much better if they act restricted and keep their own N low, regardless of sex.

  • OffTheCuff

    Troll: “The same principle works in the reverse. Looks are not everything. A girl may have dated a stellar looking guy in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for the lack of an 8 pack or a perfectly symmetrical face or full head of thick, dark, curly hair or huge, deep brown eyes or whatever else made her ex stand out physically.”

    This is why PJ is such subtle deflect-and-deflate poison. Let me rewrite this for the ladies:

    “A man may have dated a stellar looking girl in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for your lack of a 24-inch waist, perfect DD-cup breasts that defy gravity even past childbirth, zero stretch marks, or head of long *naturally* blonde hair or huge, flawless alabaster skin, or whatever else made his ex stand out physically.”

    Feel warm and fuzzy now?

  • Sassy6519

    “A man may have dated a stellar looking girl in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for your lack of a 24-inch waist, perfect DD-cup breasts that defy gravity even past childbirth, zero stretch marks, or head of long *naturally* blonde hair or huge, flawless alabaster skin, or whatever else made his ex stand out physically.”

    Feel warm and fuzzy now?

    Maybe I’m an anomaly, but I don’t feel even the slightest iota of jealousy/insecurity at that scenario.

    Whenever I’ve thought of some of my previous boyfriend’s exes, I feel indifferent. I can’t even muster up a shit/fuck to give.

    Maybe I lack the ability to feel jealousy. I don’t know.

  • Mike C

    And BTW, it doesn’t have to be “grilling”. Not everything is binary or has to be painted as extremes. And one can have casual, nonchalant conversations about the past without it being a “grilling inquisition”. In fact, the latter is counterproductive to actually getting information. For example, the best way to get a N is to frame it from a non-judgemental perspective even ultimately the information will be used to judge.

    But again IDK….unless we are misunderstanding each other I literally cannot imagine a serious relationship where we haven’t discussed our pasts back to our childhoods in great detail including romantic/dating/sexual history. Unless I am misunderstanding, I have this image of two blank slates who don’t have pasts and never discuss them. The notion makes zero sense to me. Part of learning about a person and actually loving them is learning their history, and it seems odd to purposefully exclude previous relationships like there is something to hide.

    Escoffier is right though in that this “issue” could arise in a number of ways that are not a result of some Spanish inquisition and even if not brought up it will fester in the background and manifest in other relationship dsyfunction. And there could be various tells in the present that lead the man to question further.

    Do you recall Sassy’s story of the two women with boyfriends shamelessly flirting with the bartender? Do you not also think there are times when those women at least *show* affection and attraction to their boyfriends, yet that behavior is a massive red flag. Personally, that behavior is so egregious those men should drop those women without a second thought strictly on present behavior, but there may be less overt behavior that raises a yellow flag where questioning the past can resolve. I’ll go back to myself again…I would have a yellow flag with any sort of behavior that shows attraction/interest for a man of status, and want to pursue that until either I’m comfortable or I decide I need to end it.

    Susan, you are business person with a MBA. Why do you think most companies do behavioral interviewing? Because the single best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Again, asking questions about the past is a way of looking for lack of congruency or anomalies.

    In today’s society with the legal structure as is, the stakes are very high for a man who makes a mistake. I was lucky first go around. I had no kids, and we had no assets. See Vox’s recent post for what I am talking about. Men have EVERY right to filter for whatever, and however information they need to get comfortable before making a monogamous committment especially marriage. FULL STOP. If any type of questioning raises a red flag for a woman just because a question is being asked…I’d say fine hit the pavement and go find a new guy who is “secure”.

    Just for the record, I didn’t “grill” my fiancee about her past dating history before proposing. I was more focused on how day to day living would be living together and wanted to validate it would be a “smooth operation”. There are a number of reasons and circumstances that it just was unnecessary, but I can easily put myself mentally in a position where there would be women I would need to “vet” more carefully and dig a bit deeper.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      the single best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Again, asking questions about the past is a way of looking for lack of congruency or anomalies.

      I’ve already said that I believe it’s standard practice for couples to have the “past relationships” discussion when they’re getting serious. Certainly a woman who mentioned having had three bf’s who have been in rehab is a red flag. What I don’t buy is the idea that you would discover something in that conversation that would blindside you. I find that people really are fairly predictable and congruent. That’s why past behavior is a reliable gauge – people don’t really change.

      Men have EVERY right to filter for whatever, and however information they need to get comfortable before making a monogamous committment especially marriage. FULL STOP. If any type of questioning raises a red flag for a woman just because a question is being asked…I’d say fine hit the pavement and go find a new guy who is “secure”.

      Everyone has every right to filter for whatever they like. Ain’t nobody stopping them. IMO, obsession with knowing about whether past bf’s were beta or alpha is a massive DLV. And women have every right to deem a guy insecure for being preoccupied with learning that information.

  • Passer_By

    @aimee

    Let me take your comments one at a time (to the extent I can).

    “If guys don’t have impulses urging them to trade up, why do wealthy men ditch their wives in middle age and go off with hot young things? You see it all the time with celebrities or with men who are just plain rich and/or powerful.”

    I think this is overblown, probably because very visibly rich and powerful men have women throwing themselves at them. I’ve known many very well off men who could have dumped their spouse for a younger model, but did not. I could have, and probably could now, but would not. Contrary to the feminist bleating and media images, I don’t recall any men from any family I knew growing up who dumped his wife for a younger model. The divorces I saw were people at each other’s throats (probably because she lost attraction to him), but the guy didn’t end up with anyone right away, let alone a younger model. As an adult, I’ve seen many women dump their husbands because they lost attraction to him (or didn’t have enough to begin with). Most men are very very loyal to the mother of their children (which is not to say they won’t give in to temptation to cheat – that’s another matter).

    “The gap is shrinking, but men still cheat more often than women do, in marriage at least. It may be shamed in society, but it still happens more often than the other way around.”

    Yes, which means that single women try to poach high status married men more than the other way around.

    “Women initiate the majority of divorces, but are still statistically less likely to cheat on a current husband than a husband on his current wife. (How many of those wife-initiated divorces are occasioned by wife deciding to be with another man, I don’t know.)”

    I’m not sure there is always another man in the picture – just that she has lost all attraction to her current spouse. Sometimes there is already another man, sometimes not.

    “The likelihood of cheating rises as one’s N rises, so it does seem that, since men often tend to have higher N than the women they marry, this goes back to what I said earlier about people’s riding the carousel being a bad way to prepare for LTR or marriage.”

    To some extent, but that’s another issue, I think. To be more precise, I think a wife who rode the carousel is more likely to want to dump the husband if she had guys she found a lot hotter than them. I think the husband who bedded lots and lots of lots of women is going to have a hard time giving up variety, regardless of how hot the wife is relative to his priors.

    “Men having lots of sex with the hottest women they can find isn’t any better than women having lots of sex with the hottest men they can find, and a man who does this before getting involved in a LTR has no leg to stand on if he complains that the woman did this before getting into that LTR. ”

    I don’t think those are the men complaining, so your point is moot.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Maybe I lack the ability to feel jealousy. I don’t know.
    Jealousy can be of the present, past and future or all three if you are born with a particular lack of luck.
    You lack the past one at least. I’m the jealous type but I’m more jealous about present and future. But again if my husband was the regretful type I might have a problem with his exes. He is not, neither am I so I don’t care.

  • Ramble

    Mike C @ 514

    +1

    Actually, +1 to all of your comments on this thread.

  • Mireille

    This is why PJ is such subtle deflect-and-deflate poison. Let me rewrite this for the ladies:

    “A man may have dated a stellar looking girl in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for your lack of a 24-inch waist, perfect DD-cup breasts that defy gravity even past childbirth, zero stretch marks, or head of long *naturally* blonde hair or huge, flawless alabaster skin, or whatever else made his ex stand out physically.”

    Feel warm and fuzzy now?
    ~~~~~~~~
    It is not because you can’t imagine it that this is not a likely scenario. That is exactly my take on this bogus topic. I will never be your exes and don’t want to because YOU BROKE UP WITH THEM! Obviously they were doing something wrong or not even, maybe life got in the way. IDK, don’t want to; let’s just focus on what makes our life together interesting NOW!

  • Abbot

    “You can’t expect an ideal woman if you haven’t acted ideally yourself.”

    Men are congruent because they don’t have much choice. Women are easily and often not congruent. So men sure can and do expect that “ideal.”

    Regarding N, men can expect and seek out women with very low multi penis exposure. Even high N men do that. If they succeed and everyone is happy, what is the problem? Players who commit to highly restricted women have the biggest grins and a huge middle finger right up into the face of feminism. Nothing says “I win” more than that.

  • Mireille

    Mike C @ 514

    +1

    Actually, +1 to all of your comments on this thread.
    ~~~~

    Yeah, you do that! You go, dude!

  • Ramble

    This blog isn’t a therapy session where I hold your hand while you guys talk yourselves into a mental breakdown

    Nice.

  • Mike C

    This is a pretty silly set of questions.

    I disagree. The questions speak to motivation and sussing out a particular woman’s attraction triggers. You yourself have mentioned a great number of time that female attraction is complex and tied to numerous factors. Maybe one woman is more attracted to tall men while another is more attracted to men with status while another is attracted to X or Y or Z. In any case, silly or not, those are the types of questions that if not asked out loud even indirectly you can bet your last dollar a guy asks them inside his own head, and then tries to answer them as best he can.

    It would be like me demanding an explanation for why you dated the most beautiful and kind woman on campus. Because you could.

    Nope. All men are attracted to beauty and kindness. There is no glitch there.

    There is nothing incongruent about dating someone completely different next time around. Why should I have to sign on for a certain type?

    I’d rephrase that there is nothing intrinsically incongruent. It may or may not be…that is what is the guy’s job to ferret out. Maybe the woman’s tastes have indeed change and she is more attracted to intelligence over abs and social status. I’m not denying that is possible but there are equally plausible alternative explanations. You have lots and lots of stories about cads and players and all that, but often when it comes to a certain behavior from the female side, you’ll say you’ve never heard of it IRL…and I always scratch my head because usually in those cases I am very aware of a number of real life examples of exactly that. For example, a woman “settling” post Wall for the guy she can get is just one example. Maybe in your world there are only purely good-hearted, genuine, sincere, earnest women…IDK. But I know of different examples and I have been privy to certain female conversations to know that for example some of what is being discussed in this thread are not just imaginary bogeyman that men conjure up

    Is your fiancee just like your ex-wife?

    No, one massive difference is my ex-wife was a life of the party extrovert while my fiancee is even more introverted than I am

    Should she be threatened by that?

    No, but I wouldn’t have cared one bit if she questioned me hard on why I was with someone like that and to explain why. Like your example with BMOC, I learned something about long-term compatibility from that relationship versus perhaps things related more to short-term dopamine highs. But again, I wouldn’t begrudge my fiancee trying to determine that was something I wasn’t pining away for. As I’ve told Zach, Sassy, and I think a few others who have quite high standards, you are not going to meet any person who is an 11 in EVERY SINGLE TRAIT you like or value. I think Zach’s standard of looking for a party girl extrovert who reads Thucydides and Heidegger on the weekend for intellectual discussions on Monday is almost comical. That said, again, if someone radically shifts preferences in what they are attracted to that rings some warning bells. And if someone spent their entire 20s dating high-status men while they say were very attractive and then at 35 wants to commit to a low to average-status man who perhaps has some other attractive traits…at the very least that calls for some serious vetting. Whenever we date someone new, they are bringing a different set of potentially attractive traits to the table, and I certainly don’t expect women to date exact clones each time. That said, again, to beat a dead horse here, there are men who are so RADICALLY DIFFERENT in overall personality, temperament, and arguable SMV levels that if a woman dates one and then later the next, something doesn’t add up because it is unlikely that genuine attraction could exist for both men given just how different they are. I don’t understand why this is complex to understand or controversial to accept.

    I think an issue connected here is that complexity of female attraction triggers unlike men which is very simple. I’m onboard that female attraction is complex, is a function of a number of variables and triggers, and varies significantly across different women. What I am very skeptical of though, is that a single particular woman’s attraction triggers change radically over time. Sorry..not buying that. If I came back in 10 years, and all of a sudden read comments from Sassy saying she was attracted to betas and different traits from her list, and that looks really didn’t matter to her much, my bullshit meter would be going off at 110 decibels. I could only assume that I am hearing pragmatism speaking instead of sincerity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Nope. All men are attracted to beauty and kindness. There is no glitch there.

      Not all men are attracted to kindness.

      No glitch for women either. I think it’s fair to say that all women are attracted to handsome, high status men. It really is silly to ask a woman why she is attracted to the highest status male on a college campus.

      For example, a woman “settling” post Wall for the guy she can get is just one example. Maybe in your world there are only purely good-hearted, genuine, sincere, earnest women…IDK.

      I’ve been very open about having little contact with “post Wall” women. I literally do not know a single woman who meets this description – that is not my target audience. Also, you tend to report anecdotes about older women who have been ridden hard and put away wet. Party girls in their 40s. *Shudder*

      That said, again, if someone radically shifts preferences in what they are attracted to that rings some warning bells.

      I don’t think women adhere to one set of attraction triggers. With more than a dozen variables to choose from, all sorts of different guys can cross that threshold. Contrary to sphere claims, I haven’t even seen women adhere to all alpha or all beta. In fact, I really enjoyed dating a wide variety of personality and physical types – that’s what dating is, shopping for the “best fit.” I think many women share this approach. I would agree that most women will be attracted to either STR or LTR types, and that is unlikely to change. Sassy’s tragedy is that she is looking for an LTR with STR types.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If I came back in 10 years, and all of a sudden read comments from Sassy saying she was attracted to betas and different traits from her list, and that looks really didn’t matter to her much, my bullshit meter would be going off at 110 decibels. I could only assume that I am hearing pragmatism speaking instead of sincerity.

    Question: If I started to talk about how much I like Alpha/Cads and that I wanted a hot guy even from one night what would you think?

  • Escoffier

    Thucydides I can get with but Heidegger, no. Even if he hadn’t been a Nazi, he was still a turgid old bastard.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Susan

    Were you the one who first brought this up? If so, may I ask how you have ferreted out this information and used it successfully in the past? You have shared that price discrimination was a huge issue for you and your gf a while back, so it sounds like you had good reasons to feel insecure. Did you set out to discover out how alpha vs. beta her previous sexual partners were?

    Actually, I was not the first one to bring it up…the GF was. Bwahahahahaha! The first talks about prior partners happened not long after we DTR’d and decided to go for it.
    At first, I really had no reason to be concerned. I mean, I had a fling with the girl over the summer that I didn’t think was going to go anywhere, so clearly she had elements of unrestricted-ness in her. No big deal. A few ONSs maybe a fling or two, whatever.
    She actually wanted to know MY past because she didn’t know how to read me.
    On the one hand, her best friend (my neighbor) told her that I had never had a girlfriend before, so she thought I was just using her and my friends were pressuring me into a relationship.
    On the other hand, as she put it, I was very smooth, and that made her uncomfortable. Made her think I might be a player.

    So telling her that there was a few fling things in college and I hated them was good. She was instantly relieved and said the same thing. Again, not surprising. When our fling was going on a little longer than expected in the summer, she wanted to put a maximum of 10 more meet-ups on it, because she was afraid of getting emotionally attached and didn’t really like flings. She also once started crying and asked me, essentially, to stop acting like her boyfriend.

    Then one day, she said she really, really liked me. She had previous boyfriends before, but never any that she took to so quickly as me. I was already #3 on her list, is what she said.
    I joked, well, 3 out of 3 isn’t good.
    And she said, hahaha, yeah, way more than 3.

    Uhhhh…how many exactly?

    I don’t think she even has a clear memory of how many guys she has dated “seriously.” Not had sex with, mind you, just dated and put the Boyfriend label on it.

    So, yes, I started discussing things more. Not in an insecure way at first, or judgemental, just interested. Almost all of her boyfriends were of the disgusting unattractive beta variety, as she described it. They seemed like nice guys but they weren’t very attractive.

    As she described it, she would often act bitchy towards them, and dwell on things she didn’t like, and that would grow to consume the whole relationship. She would push for more emotional closeness at the same time if she was feeling neglected, etc.

    None of this has ever been in our relationship. We had a discussion about this last night: she’s not sure if her expectations are too low or what, but I almost always exceed them.

    There were sexual hang-ups in the beginning, that is true, and that resulted in price discrimination. There were extentuating circumstances behind that, of course.
    1. I was a virgin and if I really didn’t have a lot of experience. I wasn’t really good at setting the mood or anything like that. I have gotten much better, but there’s only so much you can blame the girl for not wanting to hump you every second if you’re not doing a great job at escalation and foreplay.
    2. My SMV was still pretty damn low most days
    3. She had a lot of hangups from her religious background. Once she was gone from college and back temporarily living with her parents, that ol’ Catholic Guilt was really starting to rear in her head.

    Obviously she had some attraction to me from the get-go. My biggest issue was that I felt that I had to restrain myself a lot to let her issues work themselves out and now I hear she was thinking about a threesome in a fling not long before meeting me? Yeah, bullshit. And then she tried to justify the price discrimination, and I basically wanted nothing to do with it.

    I decided to stop restraining myself, and, to be honest, we’re both having a hell of a lot more fun now anyways. I also realize that both me and her were over-blowing this “3-some” thing. She is very easily persuaded into things, doesn’t do them right away, but thinks they are good ideas. Then after some thought, she often gets horrified and wants to run away.

    Basically the same thing happened with her and her “3-some” that never happened.

    Plus, she has a medical issue, which sometimes has the side effect of boosting her sex drive very high. This happened to be one of those times. Still didn’t do it, though.

    She might be lying, of course, but she is not a very good liar. And doesn’t like lying. She feels, forcefully, the need to tell the truth. For instance, she tells her religious mother that we are having sex. Not a good idea, but god bless her heart, she feels like shit when she is lying.

    Basically, her actual sexual background is “crappy and inexperienced” which is why she, uhhh, didn’t like the idea so much at first. She’s wayyyyyyyyy more on-board now.

    She also does nice things like send me an Advent Calendar of nude shots ;)

    I can also tell that, by now, she instinctively follows me lead on many things, and really looks up to me. She consults me on most of her decisions, she likes to make her life objectives similar to mine, she likes to share my interests, she also is very giving and cooks for me, cleans for me, etc.

    It’s also the first time in her life that she has really reshaped her life plans for a guy.

    I also have known her best friend even longer than SHE has, and she is very clear that most of the time, she comes down on my side. Well she and her brother tell me that. Don’t tell the GF that :P

    She also seen my girlfriend with basically all of her boyfriends, and, as she puts it, my GF has never been happier, not in her entire life, not even close. Never has she been so appreciative of a guy, never has she been supportive, so willing to change and compromise, just so damn happy.

    So, yes, many extenuating factors, and many ways that her present behavior reassured me.

    But…I still did ask. And probe. A lot. Aggressively, even.

    I don’t think that makes me a bad guy, though.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I also should say that it helps that she liked me “before I was cool.” When she met me, and other people found out that she was a little hesitant cause she thought I might be a player, they were saying “WTF? That’s stupid.”

    Now, it’s just more assumed that maybe I’m not the safest guy to be dating. Different social groups.

    I also was barely employed at the time, and she thought I was in debt, didn’t know that I was rather well off. She also disclosed right up front that she had MASSIVE student loans.

    The hypotheticals about female insecurity are really funny for me, too. Because for me they are not hypotheticals. She never felt pressured about the girls in the past until she was staring at a slender 6 foot woman who does some modeling for local magazines on her spare time.

    She knew better than to probe me, I guess. Tried harassing MY best friend instead. To his credit, he stayed mum ;)

  • Ramble

    Merely wanting the details on past relationships is a red flag for suspicion, insecurity, instability

    Maybe the most common way for people of the opposite sex to learn about the other is by talking about their past relationships. Our past relationships say so much about ourselves.

    Blazing Hot Victoria’s Secret Model Who is Begging for My Cock: So Ramble, tell me about the first girlfriend you ever had.
    Ramble: Ugh, I’d rather not.

    BHVSMWIBFMC: Pleeeeeeease!!!!
    Ramble: Ah, OK. Still, I do not look good in this story.

    BHVSMWIBFMC: [her eyes light up in anticipation]

    And girls not wanting to communicate honestly about their past relationships is definitely a red flag.

  • Passer_By

    ADBG

    I think you should demand that she prove you are her all time #1 by her arranging a threesome with you two and another girl.

  • Ramble

    a man can wonder and ask, that is perfectly reasonable in the exchange of info regarding romantic history; where I disagree is when that information leads to pathologically crippling thoughts that can sabotage a potential relationship.

    Mirielle, I am not seeing the debate. If some guy becomes pathologically crippled by, well, anything from your past, then it is an obvious mismatch.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “Question: If I started to talk about how much I like Alpha/Cads and that I wanted a hot guy even from one night what would you think?”

    It would likely be interpreted that all women like cads and those who say otherwise are lying.

    Same as always.

  • Lokland

    @Mirileile

    “I will never be your exes and don’t want to because YOU BROKE UP WITH THEM! ”

    Your intentional twisting of arguments is amusing.
    In the situations we are discussing, the girl who makes a mistake with the alpha is the one being dumped.

    Not the other way around as in your scenario.

    The equivalent would be to have a man get dumped by his super hot girlfriend and then move onto you.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    There must be something more to this life … than the reckless irreverent pursuit of the next orgasm … and whatever it is … it’s not a second orgasm.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    ADBG

    I think you should demand that she prove you are her all time #1 by her arranging a threesome with you two and another girl.

    She is well aware of the male need for sexual variety and I dare say I have been subconsciously “tested” on this on some occasions, but….this one I am not going to put into the cards.

  • Josie88

    What about race? Would a white guy disqualified his white girlfriend if she is a restricted girl with a low n that only had sex with her black boyfriends?

    I mean, she had a black boyfriend in high school, and college, and now the third guy is white.

    The same can be asked of men of other race. If your girlfriend is the same race as you but her previous boyfriends were a different race, would you disqualified her?

    I would asked females this too. Would you disqualified your boyfriend who is the race as you if he has ex-girlfriends that were of different race?

  • Ramble

    @Lokland

    For some men, a woman besotted to them is an impossibility.

    Which is of course rather devastating.

    And most men are aware of where that line is and where they are in relation to it.

    I disagree with you!

    I disagree with your disagreement. Just think of how many examples there are on TV of the stupid (but monkee-ishly lovable) husband/father. Hell, I would say that it is now a modern archetype.

    Now, I do think that things are finally starting to change, a little. But still, only looking at popular culture and things like, “only 40% of guys are dateable”, or whatever those girls were quoted as saying at that prestigious university, and I don’t think it is hard to see why so many guys doubt their chances at being superstars.

    I think that realistically speaking, there is a small percentage of both women and men who will not have the opportunity to mate.

    Having the “opportunity to mate” and being besotted with are two very different things.

    Now, all of you other points about Loklands possible personal issues I will leave between the two of you.

  • Passer_By

    Am I the only one who can’t this out of his head when he seems Mirielle’s name (different spelling, I know).

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    650=>6+5+0=>11=>1+1=>2

    Yet again, an even number.

    Dear Lord, sometimes I really do think that you’re a bastard.

  • Aimee

    @ Abbot
    Let me rephrase that. You have no right whatsoever to EXPECT a perfect virgin if you’ve been acting like a manwhore.

  • Aimee

    You also seem positively gleeful that a man can theoretically sex up as many women as he pleases and then get a good woman to walk down the aisle with him. Personally I’d feel just as sorry for any decent woman who ended up married to a manwhore as I would for a decent man who ended up married to a slut.

  • Passer_By

    @abbott

    “Players who commit to highly restricted women have the biggest grins and a huge middle finger right up into the face of feminism. Nothing says “I win” more than that.”

    No, they are giving a middle finger to you and other low N guys.

  • Ramble

    The average freshman girl who gets burned by a cad didn’t choose a cad

    She also didn’t choose the Math major. Isn’t that always interesting?

    Susan, there is a reason why it seems that the same arguments keep coming up over and over again and (momentarily) ending with you saying something like, “I’m done with this”. It’s because reasonable arguments are made that are never directly responded to, or, if they are, then they are not incorporated back into the common HUS narrative.

  • Mike C

    Question: If I started to talk about how much I like Alpha/Cads and that I wanted a hot guy even from one night what would you think?

    I’d think you were finally admitting the truth……JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

    Actually, I’d think aliens abducted you and replaced your brain with someone else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      She also didn’t choose the Math major. Isn’t that always interesting?

      What’s interesting about it? He’s got little experience with women, and he’s less likely than other males to communicate in way that women understand. He’s also more likely to be on the spectrum, and let’s face it, that’s a boatload of baggage when it comes to mating.

      It’s because reasonable arguments are made that are never directly responded to, or, if they are, then they are not incorporated back into the common HUS narrative.

      If I thought they were reasonable I would incorporate them.

  • Passer_By

    Apropos of this discussion, we have today, courtesy of the Dark Lord, this priceless quote from Facebook chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg:

    “I say in the book, date the bad boys, date the crazy boys, but do not marry them. Marry the boys who are going to change half of the diapers.”

    At least in her case, the Beta she settled for will get a lot of money from her, rather than the other way around.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Aimee 757 and Passer_by 758, totally agreed.

    As an aside, I find Abott to be just as annoying as PJ, but at least he uses the same name so I can skip.

  • Abbot

    “I’d feel just as sorry for any decent woman who ended up married to a manwhore as I would for a decent man who ended up married to a slut.”

    When full disclosure is provided, if requested, and either one wants to proceed, then all is good. Being that women rarely request it, men really have it made.

  • Sassy6519

    With regards to maximizing SMV, I think it’s also important for people to strive to continually improve themselves, even in small ways.

    For example, I’ll offer up myself. Despite the fact that I like the way that I look, I put a TON of effort into maintaining/ improving my appearance. These are some of the things that I did recently (Within the past 3 months) in an attempt to continually improve/maintain my appearance/SMV:

    -I have spent roughly $600-$800 to update my wardrobe. Although I liked my style already, I decided to add many new pieces to my wardrobe and get rid of things that I no longer felt happy with wearing. My most recent purchases happened about a week ago. I spent about $300 on clothes from American Apparel. I freaking love that store. I decided to add more “daring and feminine” aspects to my wardrobe including bodysuits, over the knee socks, and thigh high stockings.

    -I have spent roughly $200-$400 to update my makeup routine. I wanted to add more daring aspects to my makeup style, mainly incorporating brightly colored lip stains. I’ve also bought new primer and foundation combos, new perfume, and a new overnight facial serum that costs a whopping $85 per bottle.

    -I have spent roughly $100 on new hair accessories, brushes, and styling products. African-American hair is fairly hard to manage sometimes, but I put a lot of effort into taking care of my hair. I’ve been focusing on growing it out more. It’s down my back already, but I want to keep going. I refuse to wear extensions/weaves, so I rely on old fashioned TLC and patience.

    Although I am not religious in any sense of the word, I really like the saying of “God helps those who help themselves”.

  • Mike C

    Maybe the most common way for people of the opposite sex to learn about the other is by talking about their past relationships. ***Our past relationships say so much about ourselves.***

    Ab-so-frickin-lutely. It says a ton about what you value or at least valued (past tense) at one time. I’ll say that my first serious relationship had a lot to do with ego validation (I liked being “seen” with the hot girl) and gaining access to the party world of the extreme extrovert. She was my gateway to a world of new experiences. But all of that came with a lot of conflict, turmoil, angst, and drama. But I think it is and would be fair game to question me on my motivations for that relationship and whether I had truly progressed beyond needing those things. I actually think male social status is probably the perfect analogue to female hotness in terms of the ego validation it provides the person in the relationship. And that is OK..and I think understandable when you are talking about someone in their early 20s who maybe still needs to mature a bit (I know I certainly did at 22). But if a woman is still chasing and dating high status men in her late 20s, and then pulls a switch to an average status man in say her early to mid 30s, now that is more troublesome because again it speaks perhaps not of maturation and genuine shift in desire, but simply approaching/post Wall pragmatism.

    And girls not wanting to communicate honestly about their past relationships is definitely a red flag.

    Yes, it potentially speaks to perhaps having something to hide. At the very least, it suggest an attitude that the guy isn’t entitled to have his thoughts/concerns addressed as we have seen many either directly state or imply on this thread. And honestly, if a woman wants to walk for that reason, it probably wasn’t meant to be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      At the very least, it suggest an attitude that the guy isn’t entitled to have his thoughts/concerns addressed as we have seen many either directly state or imply on this thread. And honestly, if a woman wants to walk for that reason, it probably wasn’t meant to be.

      I really do think it’s about compatibility. If you have to look for slut tells and ask a woman a lot of questions about her past to figure out what kind of woman she is, it’s probably not a match unless she is a person who likes to be asked for a lot of details about past relationships. Some women do, because they see it as evidence of male investment.

      Everyone is free to air their thoughts and concerns, and they are also free to respond in a way that feels appropriate to them. An anxious person may be a good match for a reassuring person. They will not be a good match for a person seeking an independent, self-assured mate.

  • Abbot

    “No, they are giving a middle finger to you and other low N guys.”

    He is certainly flipping off any guy who got settled for by one of his discards.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    It would likely be interpreted that all women like cads and those who say otherwise are lying.
    Same as always.

    Now I get the whole discussion we had (not with you specifically you at least understand the numbers game and you know are planning to make your army :p) about Cads vs Dads. Dads don’t want to believe they won out even if they did in what matters.
    Although I wanted to commend you for not letting your self evaluation getting in the way of finding a wife and trying to become a father. I know people with crushing ideas of themselves that pretty much curl in a fetal position and let life pass by then so for what is worth that is admirable of you. :)

    Actually, I’d think aliens abducted you and replaced your brain with someone else.
    Heh That was my husband’s answer: “Nice try Pod person would you tell me where my wife is?” :D. I know it sounds cruel but hubby and I had a very cruel sense of humor with each other. You should see him yelling at me “Make me a sandwich, woman!” Not PC at all.

    I was going to do that for April’s fools but I don’t think it will be as funny as I though it will be. I’m also terrified that someone will quote me out of context and claim that even virgin girls that never touched a Cad end up falling for them sooner or later.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy
    “I’ll offer up myself”

    What’s the catch? ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    As an aside, I find Abott to be just as annoying as PJ, but at least he uses the same name so I can skip.

    I actually don’t mind PJ so much. I find her entertaining. Abbot gets on my last nerve, however.

  • Mike C

    Apropos of this discussion, we have today, courtesy of the Dark Lord, this priceless quote from Facebook chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg:

    “I say in the book, date the bad boys, date the crazy boys, but do not marry them. Marry the boys who are going to change half of the diapers.”

    Heh…aint that something….you’ve got a high profile woman advocating something I’m repeatedly told women never do IRL. Sounds to me like Sheryl Sandberg is reading too many manosphere blogs. That sounds a lot like the meme “ride the alpha cock carousel, and settle for the beta provider minus the provider part”. Maybe instead of beta provider it could be beta diaper changer. Just playin a bit here, but this is the sort of thing where it would be nice to get a concession that the manosphere isn’t just making up a bunch of false memes when you’ve got super high profile women advocating for it. My guess is that is exactly what Sandberg did. I’m sure her husband should be very pleased in his main role as “diaper changer” while Sandberg sits in her office reminiscing about her past bad boys.

    At least in her case, the Beta she settled for will get a lot of money from her, rather than the other way around.

    I hope he divorces her and takes half the money down the road. I’d love to see the hardcore feminist reaction to that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Heh…aint that something….you’ve got a high profile woman advocating something I’m repeatedly told women never do IRL.

      She’s a high profile alpha female with zero emotional intelligence and a high T MO. You’re grasping at straws here if you want to argue that SS represents more than 1% of women.

  • Bells

    @INTJ,

    Why are all these virgin girls willing to marry a guy who has been around the block?

    No, not really. I consider it to be a personal affront for high N men to come sniffing around for clean-slated women after they’re done sexing up a large variety of women. That’s absolutely nauseating. And I would never gamble my future with such a high risk man. I believe that it would also be a grave mistake for other virgins to enter into relationships with these unstable high N men.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I actually don’t mind PJ so much. I find her entertaining. Abbot gets on my last nerve, however.
    Flip that around for me. Abbot at least mix it up once in a while when enough people call him on his “SLUTS ARE DESTROYING AMERICA!” rants.
    PJ not so much and Abbot hasn’t been banned yet.
    I get the feeling that he will just quietly accept Susan’s choice instead of picking a new handle, YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    What’s the catch? ;)

    Wouldn’t you like to know. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Why are all these virgin girls willing to marry a guy who has been around the block?
    In my culture at least girls were raised to believe that men can’t help themselves sexually and is best to look the other way because asking for is is akin to asking for a man stop breathing. They are also told that if the guy doesn’t sow his wild oats before marriage he will do it after and the reward for they keeping their legs shut and looking the other way when their boyfriends disappear on Saturday nights is faithful husbands.
    I don’t know to what extent women on other culture has been feed this BS. But I think many women assume that men are having sex and is pointless to ask for celibacy from them so a high number shouldn’t be a deal breaker, YMMV.

  • Abbot

    “it suggest an attitude that the guy isn’t entitled to have his thoughts/concerns addressed as we have seen many either directly state or imply on this thread”

    That attitude is PERVASIVE among American women. But why? Why is EVERYTHING else on the table for discussion except the topic of prior sexual relations? Someday, some feminist is going to say “to hell with it, lets just tell it like it is” and spill the beans.

    .

  • Bells

    *Messed up Blockquote

    Short men are at a disadvantage. I understand this. My advice to short me would be to either focus on improving other aspects of themselves to make up for their deficits…

    This is fantastic advice for short men if they want to improve their SMV opportunities. I know a skinny 5’4 guy who started working out intensely over his late high school and early college years. When I saw him again in person, after a couple of years, he looked amazing. His muscular width and stance completely made up for his shortness. He also started wearing better clothes and doing his hair in a less childish way. Soon after, he got into a relationship with a cute 5’0 girl. In my opinion, I don’t think she minded one bit that he was short. His hot body was a great trade-off that she willing to take.

    Point of the story: even if a short man doesn’t develop a six-pack, being toned and fit can greatly increase his chances with the ladies.

  • Bells

    But I think many women assume that men are having sex and is pointless to ask for celibacy from them so a high number shouldn’t be a deal breaker

    I’m not expecting men to live a life of celibacy. However there’s a line between having sex because you’re a hormonal man and being loose/overly promiscuous.

  • Josie88

    @ Bell and INtJ

    will, in my situation, naiveness, a desire to be love, and no guys was asking me out in high school.

    Oh, and I was shamed about being hesitant about his age. then again, my older sister was in her early 30, divorced, and she wanted to me to understand that looks isn’t everything.

    For my 30-something sister, men her age were going for younger women and she had limited options when it came to getting an attractive guy. So she shamed me. She shamed my teenage sister for gross out my her 40-something boss hitting her. I think that she wanted to teach us a valuable lesson, one that I acknowledge is important but at our age, we weren’t suppose to be dating men in her age groups.

    As for the virgins, they are so young and inexperience that they are unable to filter out the betas from the cads. After all, a cad can be very charming and behave as a good guy.

  • Josie88

    Oh, and my sister was hanging out with men that was 30 – 40 years old at time. It just never cross her mind that I, then a teenager should be going out with boys in high school. It just never cross her mind at all.

    Other then that, I remember her telling me younger boys just wants to have fun and that I should date older men who is ready to give a commitment. Also, she reason that they know how to treat a woman better and can provide for me. Did I mentioned that she shamed me about the age difference, telling me that youth is fleeting and it is the heart that counts.

  • Bells

    @Josie88

    Youth is fleeting and the heart does count. But in my opinion, High school girls and 40 year old men should never cross paths in terms of sexual relationships.

  • Joe

    @Aimee

    Let me rephrase that. You have no right whatsoever to EXPECT a perfect virgin if you’ve been acting like a manwhore.

    You know, it would be nice if all the perfect men and all the perfect women would get together in one place so that they could find each other…

    Sadly, they stopped making phone booths.

    Point being, we’re all flawed, right? (Admit it – you too! ;) ) The only real debate here that I can see – the only real point of contention – is about the flaws for which you’re going to settle. (And btw, each seems to hate the other gender’s choices, it seems.)

    Are we overloading that term “settling” with some bad connotations that it doesn’t deserve, then? Like, maybe, since we all have to settle one way or another, we can stop thinking it means the same as “be forever unhappy?”

    Because it doesn’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Are we overloading that term “settling” with some bad connotations that it doesn’t deserve, then? Like, maybe, since we all have to settle one way or another, we can stop thinking it means the same as “be forever unhappy?”

      Thank you, Joe, for injecting some perspective here. We all settle every day, in every area of our lives. Our goal is to get the best possible deal we can, and that will be determined by what we have to offer. A person can negotiate a “settlement” and feel like they’ve won the lottery.

  • Bells

    As for the virgins, they are so young and inexperience that they are unable to filter out the betas from the cads. After all, a cad can be very charming and behave as a good guy

    I’m not sure if you and your sisters had a positive relationship with your father. But being close with my dad helped set a high standard for my future relationships. My dad gave me abundant positive reinforcements about my looks, potential, and heart. So when cad-ish men come around, I don’t fall easily into their shallow words of sweet nothings.

    Plus, I could never introduce a promiscuous man to my family in good conscience. I’d be laughed out of the house and told to come back when my head is finally screwed on tight, lol.

  • Mike C

    Apropos of this discussion, we have today, courtesy of the Dark Lord, this priceless quote from Facebook chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg:

    “I say in the book, date the bad boys, date the crazy boys, but do not marry them. Marry the boys who are going to change half of the diapers.”

    I wanted to make a more serious comment on this post because I think how this is phrased and the underlying attitude is very revealing here. The key theme here is one of men as supporting actors in the movie that is this woman’s life. The role of the man is to fit into the right part of the story. So when you are in “fun/exploration” mode you date the “bad boys”, the “crazy boys” and once that chapter closes and you are ready to move onto the motherhood chapter then you marry the diaper changer guy. With this attitude, what men want and when is irrelevant if it messes with Sheryl’s life script. I wish I could ask her directly, what does she expect the “diaper changer” guys to be doing while she is fucking the “crazy, bad boys”. Are they supposed to jerk off for 10 years while they wait their turn to play the husband aka diaper changer in the next chapter of her life?

    And this is what circles back to the core of this discussion. No self-respecting guy wants to be the diaper changer after the Sheryl’s of the world finish up fucking the “fun bad boys” and what I have been suggesting is the way a guy can better determine that isn’t the case if there has been congruency in type of men instead of the “switching gears” approach that Sheryl is advocating from “bad and crazy” to dutiful diaper changer.

    I’d like to think her mentality represents a very small minority but I really don’t know. In the meantime, she is held up in the mainstream media as what women should strive for and emulate. It is politically impossible for any man to speak out against this in mainstream circles without being labeled reactionary or worse misogynist or part of the “War on Women” which means the ball is in women’s court to speak out against these types of messages.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d like to think her mentality represents a very small minority but I really don’t know. In the meantime, she is held up in the mainstream media as what women should strive for and emulate.

      There’s been enormous backlash against SS and her book throughout the media and in feminist circles as well. I have not read a single positive review of her book or her personal agenda.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy

    I actually don’t mind PJ so much. I find her entertaining. Abbot gets on my last nerve, however.

    Hah it’s the exact opposite for me. Abbot invented some cool terms like multi-penis and insta-penis.

  • Tomato

    ” Players who commit to highly restricted women have the biggest grins and a huge middle finger right up into the face of feminism. Nothing says “I win” more than that.”

    Much of the manosphere is driven by such revenge fantasies. See also: “If she doesn’t make relationship choices that I approve of, she’s going to end up a depressed, childless, lonely spinster with 50 cats living in a cardboard box behind WalMart.”

  • J

    J: He realizes that the on paper version of this guy is significantly better than the real life version.

    Wave: Exactly. There are so many ways to be a loser that aren’t obvious on the surface.

    J: Yeah, I just wish someone would have told me that before I took the ring. I have nothing but bad memories of that relationship, yet it looked so good at the beginning to my 20 yo self. He did quite a number on me–but of course nothing compared to his wives and kids.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    INTJ wrote:

    Hah it’s the exact opposite for me. Abbot invented some cool terms like multi-penis and insta-penis.

    If you say so.

    You have low standards, if I may say so.

  • Mike C

    I’ve already said that I believe it’s standard practice for couples to have the “past relationships” discussion when they’re getting serious. Certainly a woman who mentioned having had three bf’s who have been in rehab is a red flag.

    OK, we are basically on the same page. I must have misunderstood something you said upthread as I got the impression your position was that inquiring about past relationships was unwarranted and a evidence of “insecurity”. I’m glad you clarified that. Thanks.

    What I don’t buy is the idea that you would discover something in that conversation that would blindside you. I find that people really are fairly predictable and congruent. That’s why past behavior is a reliable gauge – people don’t really change.

    Well, you never know.

    IMO, obsession with knowing about whether past bf’s were beta or alpha is a massive DLV

    I can’t quite fathom a man asking a woman if her past boyfriends were “beta” or “alpha”. Even today, I suspect the majority of women even younger women wouldn’t have the first idea what you meant. But in normal conversation about past relationships it would come up if the guy was captain of the football team, president of a frat, or an engineering honor society member. I know you disagree with me on this but switching from captain of the football team or frat president to engineering honor society guy is a yellow flag at minimum, especially the later the switch takes place.

  • Mike C

    I think it’s fair to say that all women are attracted to handsome, high status men.

    Of course. And basically all men are going to be attracted to the Playboy Playmate with the natural body and more girlish next door looks. But basically zero men are going to date that Playboy Playmate and then later switch to Susie Homemaker (no reference to you…just an expression).

    It really is silly to ask a woman why she is attracted to the highest status male on a college campus.

    Not arguing that. The point is the decision to date that man instead of heading over to the engineering college and dating one of those guys.

    I don’t think women adhere to one set of attraction triggers. With more than a dozen variables to choose from, all sorts of different guys can cross that threshold.

    Well…IDK, it seems like there are some women here who would disagree with that. To use one example, I suspect if Hope were single the set of men she would consider would be mutually exclusive from Sassy, and that they both have a very clear archetype of men they find attractive. Sure, there can be multiple attraction triggers but a woman who is attracted to “cocky swagger” isn’t going to have the same magnitude of an attraction for a more reserved introvert.

    In any case, I’m simply telling you and have reaffirmed by numerous male commenters what the typical male thought process is on this particular issue. It is what it is. If I put on my evo psych hat, odds are men evolved detection systems to look for any sign that they are essentially being duped for provisioning resources and/or might be cuckolded. This desire to be the “best” man a woman has and the desire for consistency is probably rooted in that. Your stated objective is for women who want families and children to find suitable relationship prospects. Basically all of us men here are telling you what one potential stumbling block or issue could be. If you want to reject that or categorically disagree, no skin off my back.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Not arguing that. The point is the decision to date that man instead of heading over to the engineering college and dating one of those guys.

      Is that a joke? Give me one good reason why I should have done that. Why any woman should do that. Head over to a building and stand around? When a handsome, smiling guy in a jersey is asking me to the Sig Pi formal?

      A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “He’s also more likely to be on the spectrum, and let’s face it, that’s a boatload of baggage when it comes to mating.”

    Excellent analysis, all likely true. Not sure why that means he should enter a relationship with someone who did not value those things until she had to.

    “They will not be a good match for a person seeking an independent, self-assured mate.”

    Passive agressive insult aimed at a large number of your male commenters.

    This topic seems like an enjoyable one for everybody.

    “It really is silly to ask a woman why she is attracted to the highest status male on a college campus.”

    Is it silly to ask her why she was stupid enough to think she could pull it off?
    Sorry let me rephrase that so I’m not deliberately being an asshole.

    Is it silly to wonder why she thought she could so something we all know she couldn’t do? Is it silly to feel like shit because given the choice between a boyfriend or a lay she chose the lay.

    I have no problem with women going after what they want.
    I find it dehumanizing to be told that judging someone based on their behaviour is any worse than her judging my behaviour and looks (and determining they were sub par.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Is it silly to ask her why she was stupid enough to think she could pull it off?…Is it silly to feel like shit because given the choice between a boyfriend or a lay she chose the lay.

      You haven’t been paying attention. That was me, and I dated him for three years, and broke his heart at the end.

      I find it dehumanizing to be told that judging someone based on their behaviour is any worse than her judging my behaviour and looks (and determining they were sub par.)

      It’s never wrong to judge someone based on their behavior. That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. Judge a woman based on the way she is behaving in your relationship. She’s either head over heels or she’s something less than that. Never settle for less than that. If she’s HOH then it doesn’t much matter who her previous bf was, though as I’ve said, I think it’s normal to share that information.

      I know all about my husband’s exes. I feel a certain fondness for all of them but the last one. We met by chance when she was looking fabulous in her jeans and leather bomber jacket and I was 4 months pregnant in unzipped jeans carrying a mop. But even then, I thought to myself, “I am going to have his kid, and you have nothing.”

  • Lokland

    Also, its a least a touch funny that we have gone from talking about women not having it all in the working field to women having it all in the dating field.

    Honestly think its amusingly ironic.

    No asshole intended.

  • Lokland

    “A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.”

    Ergo, all women with STEM majors are losers themselves because they cannot get attention from the jocks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ergo, all women with STEM majors are losers themselves because they cannot get attention from the jocks.

      No ergo.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Is that a joke? Give me one good reason why I should have done that. Why any woman should do that. Head over to a building and stand around? When a handsome, smiling guy in a jersey is asking me to the Sig Pi formal?

    A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.

    Ask Hope. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what she would have done. :D

  • J

    If I came back in 10 years, and all of a sudden read comments from Sassy saying she was attracted to betas and different traits from her list, and that looks really didn’t matter to her much, my bullshit meter would be going off at 110 decibels. I could only assume that I am hearing pragmatism speaking instead of sincerity.

    OTOH, people do grow and change.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “OTOH, people do grow and change”

    How do men grow and change?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Is that a joke? Give me one good reason why I should have done that. Why any woman should do that. Head over to a building and stand around? When a handsome, smiling guy in a jersey is asking me to the Sig Pi formal?

    A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.

    I dated a guy in a fraternity at my school during my sophomore year. One of the perks of dating a frat-boy is that one gets invited to epic parties and such. I had a lot of fun with him, and I enjoyed knowing that my weekend itinerary was always filled with activities at his place.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “You haven’t been paying attention. That was me, and I dated him for three years, and broke his heart at the end.”

    I realize that, good for you.
    There can in the end only be one winner. Unless you were the only competitor there were also some losers. (Which I doubt because you seem proud of your victory.)

    So, this is actually totally inapplicable to you. We’re talking about all those other losers you beat out for that relationship.

    “I know all about my husband’s exes.”

    Great, my wife knows about mine. She doesn’t like one of them and its very obvious that she is better (ie. hotter and not drunk right now).

    I don’t hold that against her, it makes me happy actually.

    “If she’s HOH”

    Going back to previous argument which you don’t want to respond to.
    Some men don’t get to have a woman who is HOHs.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    How do men grow and change?

    Funny story that relates back to jealousy.

    At one point, I posted a collage of pictures of myself and some girls I have liked in the past. Just to show that I have a definite type and there is only one outlier.

    Type doesn’t change, at least for me, actual Fall-In-Love attraction triggers are NOT malleable.

    But I had to find and save a bunch of pictures to my laptop to do it. Labelled them a folder called “Girls I have Liked”

    Showing GF something on the computer one day…

    “What’s this?” Okay, she actually just pointed at it and gave me a look. I ignored her and kept going with the flow.

    Rookie mistake!

  • Lokland

    “No ergo.”

    Go rot in hell.

  • Ramble

    Right, so the guy is saying, “You’d better be pretty damned hypergamous, and I’d better be the best you could ever dream of.”

    Nice work if you can get it.

    No, that is absolutely not what is being said. She could have been taking her long term love life seriously (as advised by at least one popular relationship blogger) and after looking at, though not sleeping with, many guys decided that he was the pick of the litter.

    Actually, that hypothetical scenario sounds similar to what Anacaona did.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Oy, Lok, there’s a difference between digging in your heels and lobbing insults. Come on man!

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Oy, Lok, there’s a difference between digging in your heels and lobbing insults. Come on man!

    This is clearly a very touchy subject for him. I don’t see his disposition getting any better about it, sadly.

  • INTJ

    Is PJ posing as Lokland or something?

  • Joe

    @Susan

    A person can negotiate a “settlement” and feel like they’ve won the lottery.

    Funny you should put it that way. Sometimes, when I take a good look at myself, I can’t believe how lucky I’ve been. “Blessed” is the term that comes to mind, and undeservedly so, too.

    I’d ask the guys here if they think any woman can appreciate that. The answer is, my wife does.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    No, he sees Susan as being extremely illogical to the point of being insulting.

    Some girls get burned by cads.
    Okay, why?
    Because they get attention from cads when they are young and don’t know better.
    Why don’t they get burned by math majors?
    Because why would you go after math majors when you are getting attention from cads?

    This automatically implies women will only go for math majors when they do not have sufficient attention from hot cads
    But women actually have a strong incentive to go for math majors because lurking amidst those hot social alpha guys are a lot of cads.

    Maybe Susan didn’t get “burned,” but this whole story started to explain why some girls DO get burned.

    FTR, a lot of girls DO make mistakes with Beta Guys later, just different kind of mistakes.

    Also FTR, what did we expect of Charlotte? JoJo looked like a total moron who was intentionally looking dumb. Adam was disgusting-looking and hung out with losers. Charlotte very clearly wanted to fit in and figured she had Hoyt under control…well, right up until the point she got drunk and the whole situation spiraled out of her control.
    And at the end, well, JoJo is the loser intellectual guy who is just too fucking dumb to realize it. He’s being used for status. Meanwhile Adam is off to conquer the world.

    Yes, lots of us loser STEM guys are not first choice. You can do a lot of work to improve yourself, though. You don’t have to be low on the totem pole. Most men are just so feminized, so weak, so ordinary that if you know the rules of the game, you can easily improve yourself.

    A lot of guys lose sight of that, I think. They are also convinced the girls “squandered” their youth, but I have to say I am, overall, pretty satisified with my current relationship, and definitely feel she is pretty high value. My suspicion is, based on what I valued, I probably wouldn’t have placed her at very high value in HER college years, either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because why would you go after math majors when you are getting attention from cads?

      You math majors are missing the point. Women can and do value beta traits. Women can and do reject cads.

      Women do not storm the Engineering Building or pitch a tent in the lobby of the Comp Sci center.

  • Abbot

    “women will only go for math majors when they do not have sufficient attention from hot cads”

    But of course that will get framed as “she is in a different place in her life now” for the sole purpose of getting men to see it as natural, normal and no big deal. Feminists are the new neo-fathers hoping to marry off their now-spent daughters.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Actually, that hypothetical scenario sounds similar to what Anacaona did.
    Pretty much. I was never a looker but for a Cad what matters is that you look easy and I had a whore’s face if we go for the numbers of approaches… So I did had a couple of them tall good looking white guys asking me out. Most of the time I was like “Me?! Really?! Why?!”

  • Ramble

    IMO, obsession with knowing about whether past bf’s were beta or alpha is a massive DLV.

    This is correct.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Re-frames do not work on ADBG. If I wanted it re-framed I would have re-framed it myself.

    I mean at this point I figure we all know how these conversations are going to go, which is why we are so angry heading into them :P

    Occasionally someone will do something weird. Like SayWhaat bringing up the rape and rejection thing from the solipism thread. I actually didn’t remember that, but I don’t think I read that.

    As usual, the fundamental lesson for guys remains the same, and it is what Sassy lined up in her big hypothesis on this thread: women have choices and economic power and therefore want to marry attractive guys that they actually like. And as the the post itself is about, they aren’t pressured by time, and are actually pressured it against, so you better bring some serious Game.

    Therefore, men must work on firing up short-term attraction triggers.

    At a young age, most of us don’t know this, and most of us can’t do it well unless we put a lot of work into it, and most of us that DO do it can only do it subconsciously and on accident.

    Girls obviously dig Beta or else Beta wouldn’t be around at all, so it’s silly to think that girls really only want 100% Alpha. The real point is that Betas have to Alpha up to compete in the market, but if they do that, they can make a go at it.

    Unfortunately, some of us guys have some scars from the Bad Times for the Beta, and sometimes girls can just rub you the wrong way. Whatever, call them insecure if you want, maybe you should work on your Girl Game to see if you can fix that while we’re going the shaming route? Either way, it’s preposterous to expect that all guys are going to be a great match for you.

    And lots of girls are still restricted, low-N, and didn’t date Alphas. Though half did a ONS, that leaves half that didn’t. We can screen for that.

  • Sai

    @Mireille
    “Now, if one of our shared values is our love for money and cushy lifestyles then well, the engineer is of course out.”

    I thought engineers made lots of money! :(

    @Susan
    “That includes disappointment or failure, btw – as evidenced by women being turned on by vulnerability.”

    What’s the percentage of women who respond that way?

    @Anacaona
    Happy birthday!

    @Sassy
    “Now, I’ve always had a qualm with the idea that women don’t care about male looks. I don’t think that statement is true.”

    +1
    I don’t understand how this is overlooked as often as it is, unless you are blind.

    @Escoffier
    “Flip the script: according to EvPsych, women prefer dominant men who are physically fit and strong. This is to help them defend themselves against rival tribes, saber-tooth tigers and the like. But we no longer face such threats. Hence the preference for these traits is today “irrational.” Hence all you gals who get naturally turned on by hunks are not merely irrational but insecure.”

    Already talked myself out of tall dudes only, never even got into the ripped/muscular thing. :D
    (but if I have to work out and eat right, I won’t be with a 500 lb guy either)

    @INTJ
    “Why are all these virgin girls willing to marry a guy who has been around the block?”

    Agreed.

    @Passer_By
    “Apropos of this discussion, we have today, courtesy of the Dark Lord, this priceless quote from Facebook chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg”

    Don’t blame Voldemort for this. :(


    From what I’ve seen, it would probably be easier for me if I didn’t screw anyone until after I got married, because I would welcome the man’s questions but have no powers of persuasion that could smooth this issue over. I very much sympathize with the men’s competitive urges (the VS story hurts me and it’s not even my story).

  • Abbot

    “We can screen for that.”

    Welcome to the new Screen Culture…

  • Ramble

    He’s got little experience with women

    Yes, and douchy frat boys have more experience. This is interesting. Girls are choosing the douchy guys over the betas that they, supposedly, so desire.

    He’s also more likely to be on the spectrum, and let’s face it, that’s a boatload of baggage when it comes to mating.

    And wanna-be rockstars are more likely to have substance abuse problems and football players are more likely to be abusive, but that does not slow them down. Come on, Susan. You’re deflecting.

    If I thought they were reasonable I would incorporate them.

    Previously, when you were trotting out your, “It is the male-to-male status hierarchy that really drive girls” and I brought up the wanna-be rockstars, backdoor men and sneaky fuckers, you responded with (paraphrasing) “OMG, you’re right!”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He’s got little experience with women

      Yes, and douchy frat boys have more experience.

      Exactly. Do you want to claim that the ability to confidently approach and converse with women is not an advantage in meeting them?

      Previously, when you were trotting out your, “It is the male-to-male status hierarchy that really drive girls” and I brought up the wanna-be rockstars, backdoor men and sneaky fuckers, you responded with (paraphrasing) “OMG, you’re right!”.

      I still maintain that it’s male intrasexual competition that signals male fitness to women. In fact, I find this painfully obvious and wonder that anyone could still dispute it. In any case, there are other attraction triggers at work as well. The female soft spot for creative intelligence is well documented – troubadors, poets, writers, painters, and other artistic types do very well with women and always have. Research has been done on this – and it does indeed come back to intrasexual male competition. The theory is that only men with considerable resources could afford to pursue creative outlets and develop those talents.

      As for sneaky fuckers, well, they’re the exception, right? They get past all the filters somehow. There are always a few of those, but it doesn’t disprove intrasexual competition as an attraction trigger.

  • J

    How do men grow and change?

    Which ones, Lok? You ask a rather vague question.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also, the idea of “Sassy comes back in 10 years and says she likes a Beta Guy” sounds like a really weird and possibly terrible HUS rom-com :/

    Where would we go to rant about relationship problems?! Where?! Dammit, I won’t have sex 3 times a day, you can’t make me!

  • Ramble

    My suspicion is, based on what I valued, I probably wouldn’t have placed her at very high value in HER college years, either.

    Why not?

  • Mike C

    Is that a joke? Give me one good reason why I should have done that.

    I was being metaphorical. I think it is probably best I not go any further down this path.

    Bottom line, many/most men will be interested in previous dating history including the “types” of men previously dated and how they imagine themselves stacking up.

  • SayWhaat

    Occasionally someone will do something weird. Like SayWhaat bringing up the rape and rejection thing from the solipism thread. I actually didn’t remember that, but I don’t think I read that.

    *shrug* I called out something that I thought was hypocritical, and INTJ had the opportunity to clarify. Nothing weird about that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Ramble
    This is a pajama party. All females are chiming their likings and experiences. it seems the confusion is to try and end up with a scientific conclusion of what girls like so I have a 100% foolproof plan. Women are soft sciences there is not really one way to make sure you are going to be all women equally attracted to you. That math major might had found at this point another girl that was more suitable and find him endearing as he is. It was not just Susan.
    If you don’t believe me head any girly forum and see how many of them are fighting for who is the hottest Avenger you will see that even Coulson had his fandom, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    This automatically implies women will only go for math majors when they do not have sufficient attention from hot cads
    But women actually have a strong incentive to go for math majors because lurking amidst those hot social alpha guys are a lot of cads.

    Maybe Susan didn’t get “burned,” but this whole story started to explain why some girls DO get burned.

    ADBG, you and I are on the same wavelength.

    First let me say this. There are high status “good” guys. Now with that said, who do you think is more likely to “burn” a woman, the high status BMOC or the engineering student? There is something absurd about maintaining in one breath the idea of how can any woman “pass up on interest” from a high status man and in the very next breath bemoan women who get “victimized” and or pumped and dumped by their very own choices. I can’t muster up even a shred of sympathy for that scenario. I tend to believe that people deserve whatever negative consequences they get from stupid choices. I’m reminded of this parable

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now with that said, who do you think is more likely to “burn” a woman, the high status BMOC or the engineering student?

      Exactly – it’s a risk assessment. Who is more likely? My BMOC was a sweetheart. I’ve known several douchey engineering students. There are always individual cases, remember? But in general, the risk of disappointment increases with the SMV of the male.

      So a woman must determine several things in making this choice.

      What is her own SMV? Which guy is her natural, assortative mate?

      What is the MO of each guy? What pattern of behavior has each established?

      What is the behavior of each male towards her? Do they demonstrate interest clearly? What are their objectives for the relationship? Sex? Or more?

      What does she find attractive about each male?

      etc.

      There are four possible outcomes when a woman is taking the measure of a man:

      1. Assesses correctly, Rejects = dodged a bullet
      2. Assesses correctly, Accepts = bliss
      3. Assesses incorrectly, Rejects = the one that got away
      4. Assesses incorrectly, Accepts = quel desastre

  • Mike C

    He’s got little experience with women

    Yes, and douchy frat boys have more experience. This is interesting. Girls are choosing the douchy guys over the betas that they, supposedly, so desire.

    When Susan says something like this I’m reminded of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_KmNZNT5xw

    “Experience” with women is a lot like porridge from the three bears….not too hot, not too cold.

    Too little experience is just as bad if not worse than too much.

  • Mike C

    A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/16/hookinguprealities/10-reasons-to-date-a-beta-male/

  • Ramble

    This is a pajama party.

    Ana, I get that.

    And, personally, I have absolutely no problem with any girl having any preference, or changing that preference.

    The reason why I throw up this “attack” is because of how much Susan tries to pursue certain ideas that she already knows is not true. The two in particular are:

    1. Girls follow the male created status hierarchies.

    Again, simply looking at the likes of Justin Bieber, or the Jonas Brothers, or One Direction or almost any other male idol and knowing how much the average man can not stand the unmasculine pip-squeaks would easily let you know that that idea is in need of some serious updating.

    When you add in how many young STEM majors are very respected by their male peers (and older males as well) and how poorly they do, well, it should be obvious that the idea is wrong.

    Also, I suspect that this whole idea was born from the desire to pin these things on male driven stuff as opposed to simply accepting that girls do things for their own purposes and therefore deserve the full responsibility of their actions. However, I could definitely be stretching on that part and, for that, I probably do deserve some backlash.

    2. Girls really, really do want Betas (even though they never seem to target them for their freshman hookups)

    I don’t actually argue with the idea that girls like Betas. However, I do combat the idea that these “innocents” are so naive when getting played by Cads when they are 18 (or whatever). IME, the grand majority of girls know the score when they enter the game. And I think that Susan would do her male audience a much greater service if she would drop that meme from her blog (the innocent freshman being played by the big, bad cad) and treat them as fairly worldly individuals capable of making decisions and living with the consequences, AND, that the young betas need to learn what those girls are going after and that they should amp up their douchiness if tehy want to enjoy their early college years.

    They don’t need to amp it up a lot, just enough so that those girls instinctively realize that he will dice through any shit test she throws his way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When you add in how many young STEM majors are very respected by their male peers (and older males as well) and how poorly they do, well, it should be obvious that the idea is wrong.

      I don’t think this is true. I think a lot of STEM majors are looked down upon by dominant males in social settings. Men are much harder on nerds and geeks than women are, IMO.

      Just so everyone knows the deal, my husband went to an engineering college that was 20% female. I fell for the STEM guy myself. But he was 27 by that point, and to hear him describe his high school and college days is both poignant and in some cases, painful. He felt terrible about his prospects with women at the age of 19 or 20. Sure, it would have been nice if some beautiful girl had recognized his long-term potential and rewarded him with sex and undying love, but in the end he had to settle for a crazy who shaved her head one day.

      I had plenty of disappointments too. We don’t all get to be top of the heap. What I’m hearing from men here is resentment about that. Which brings us back to male instrasexual competition….

  • Jesse

    OTOH, people do grow and change.

    I’m going to give another short speech here, maybe to no one but myself, but when I have tentative thoughts I figure I might as well state them, if only for my own edification.

    There’s a lot of finger-pointing from both sides about how a young man or woman’s initial choices reveal their true character. If a young man realizes he can get different girls to sleep with him and he dives into this headlong for a while, he’s automatically deemed a nauseating high-N philanderer who should be avoided at all costs. If a young woman gets burned by an alpha cad then we presume to know that any beta type she settles with later is just a placeholder for the alpha cock she craves but can’t actually hold on to.

    You know what? A sea of pussy is attractive. Alphas are attractive. But sometimes, people realize that their initial choices aren’t what they’re all cracked up to be, and they pick themselves up and decide to move on to better things.

    Some boys realize that their time is more productively spent, and sex really is better, in a relationship, and some girls realize that having their hindbrain played like a violin by some douchebag is not the path to a fulfilling existence. Some people aren’t set in stone, and they learn from their experiences.

    If someone genuinely tells you, “You know, I did those things, but I came to see it wasn’t very fun and I’d really be happier with you,” maybe they’re telling the truth. To be sure, some people are only using you as a fallback when they’re no longer able to perpetuate their preferred game, but I just wanted to speak up for the honest folks who do grow and change. Not everyone makes the right choices from the beginning and not everyone knows exactly what they want from the beginning.

    Some men realize that casual sex isn’t really fun, and some women realize that life is saner with a little less dark triad.

    We see initial choices, and everyone goes, “Aha! So [he/she] really is a [player/cad/slave for the alpha cock/something else.]”

    I just want to present an alternative view to that.

    That concludes this lecture of things I don’t actually know anything about.

  • Mike C

    There’s been enormous backlash against SS and her book throughout the media and in feminist circles as well. I have not read a single positive review of her book or her personal agenda.

    Do you have any links I can read that demonstrate this backlash against SS? I’m genuinely curious. I only saw the one positive reference on Erin Burnett’s Outfront on CNN, and a female investment blogger and money manager I regularly read thought she was important enough to dedicate a blog post to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      a female investment blogger and money manager I regularly read thought she was important enough to dedicate a blog post to.

      Oh she’s important all right. Her book has been a lightning rod for debate both among feminist factions and in the general population.

  • Mike C

    You know what? A sea of pussy is attractive. Alphas are attractive. But sometimes, people realize that their initial choices aren’t what they’re all cracked up to be, and they pick themselves up and decide to move on to better things.

    Some boys realize that their time is more productively spent, and sex really is better, in a relationship, and some girls realize that having their hindbrain played like a violin by some douchebag is not the path to a fulfilling existence. Some people aren’t set in stone, and they learn from their experiences.

    If someone genuinely tells you, “You know, I did those things, but I came to see it wasn’t very fun and I’d really be happier with you,” maybe they’re telling the truth. To be sure, some people are only using you as a fallback when they’re no longer able to perpetuate their preferred game, but I just wanted to speak up for the honest folks who do grow and change. Not everyone makes the right choices from the beginning and not everyone knows exactly what they want from the beginning.

    Jesse, I am basically in agreement with you here. The key distinction is the issue of genuine change in preferences versus fallback position.

    If I put you in a room with a table with 10 different meals, and ask you to select one and I am going to remove them one every 5 minutes and then give you another chance to decide, and then we get to the final meal, and you say “that last one is the one I really wanted anyways” it isn’t as believable if you made up your mind much earlier in the process. There is no way of getting around the appearance that your decision making was driven by reduced/lack of options.

    But yes, I think people can change and grow (I think J said that) and perhaps even shift preferences, but that becomes problematic when it seems too convenient and the preferences seem to point towards different values.

  • Lokland

    “Is PJ posing as Lokland or something?””

    No that was me and I very much meant it.

    “Oy, Lok, there’s a difference between digging in your heels and lobbing insults.”

    That wasn’t an insult.

    “This is clearly a very touchy subject for him. I don’t see his disposition getting any better about it, sadly.”

    Actually, I have no real personal investment on the right or wrongness of this. I can count exactly three women who went for my buddy failed and then went for me. I politely declined, no fuss, no mention of my insecurity.

    “While Susan’s responses to you are quite condescending, you should try to take the high road. ”

    No.
    Her response was specifically designed to piss me off and of course insulting to a large group of people which includes my wife.

    I won’t even bother pretending to play nice.

    ——————

    I’m just kind of amazed at the derogatory nature the women are taking towards the guys whom their supposed to actually want to be in relationships with.

    All the Dads here, or those who want to be, basically had their eyes clawed out because they had standards.

    Funny as I assume most of the women want to be mothers.

    ———-

    “No ergo.”

    Now onto the important part.

    So women’s attraction triggers are not malleable?
    The only reason a woman is with a STEM guy is because she fails elsewhere?

    There is no congruency with this statement and all your former ones.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Let’s walk this back. This was the exchange:

      “A woman receiving attention from a good looking, high status male has zero incentive to chuck it and go searching for men holed up in laboratories.”

      Ergo, all women with STEM majors are losers themselves because they cannot get attention from the jocks.

      Since the word ergo means “consequently,” or “it follows,” I believe you used it incorrectly. Your claim does not follow from mine. Female STEM majors being losers is not a consequence of a woman not actively pursuing romantic involvements with male STEM majors.

      Now, on to the substance. Why does it not follow?

      Note I drew attention to the question of incentives. Picture cute little Jenny, eating her salad in the cafeteria while studying. Ben, a social guy who sings in the a capella group, has noticed her before, and asks her if he’d be disturbing her studying if he sat at her table. She says “not at all!” and they proceed to become acquainted.

      What would Jenny’s incentive be to reject Ben and go searching for a potential mate across campus?

      An alternative scenario might be that Tim, a chem major, has noticed Jenny in his bio course. He knows a lot of kids in the class, but she usually sits by herself and doesn’t talk to anyone. He makes a point of sitting next to her a couple of times and finally strikes up a conversation. She says she finds the course pretty hard. He mentions that it’s a piece of cake for him and asks if she wants to study together. (Note: Ben and Tim are equally attractive.)

      IOW, you need to make an effort. I know you know that, because you have described how much effort you made. The reality is that Jenny has little incentive to pursue any boys, she’s cute and approachable and she’s naturally going to select from among the men who present, or display, to her. Saying that Jenny should like the STEM guy (beta) over the singer (alpha) makes no sense, certainly not to Jenny. Jenny doesn’t think in those terms. In both scenarios, Jenny sees a cute guy who has appropriately made a connection.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “Which ones, Lok? You ask a rather vague question.”

    The ones in analogous situation (whatever it may be) to the ladies making a mistake.

    What mistake does a guy have to make to realize his preferences are bad for him?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    When you add in how many young STEM majors are very respected by their male peers (and older males as well) and how poorly they do, well, it should be obvious that the idea is wrong.
    First
    Where? Men here say that they respect STEM men but where is the proof they do? When was the last time men went massively to a movie to see a STEM major boy getting the girl? Oor what men aimed books have the NERD as the lead? For what I can gather men admire James Bond, Captain Kirk, Wolverine, Batman and the like so you are wrong about this idea that men like STEM males. Most of the time we women praise Beta males HUS they just call us outliers and liars so they don’t like them and they don’t believe anyone does.

    Second
    You are forgetting Display. Men don’t go to Justin Bieber concerts or to fan events so women have only themselves to judge. In the absence of men someone has to confer a way to judge and women use their emotions in this case the more screamers the more likely the guy is the hottest thing on Earth, Why do you think female fans are so expressive? This is the kind of environment where it makes sense to show your ‘love’ and whoever loves the most win. If it was a mixed crowd things probably would be different.

    Third
    This are idols for prepubescent girls. Like Nsync, Backstreet Boys, Hanson… Their whole image is based on the fact that they don’t look like they could get anyone pregnant thus they are a safe transition from the hormonal teens that are still not ready to spread their genes. You need to focus in other target because this is not an ideal example of prestige.

    Fourth
    Singers and actors have another factor: status. We discussed that women have many points to take in account before labeling someone hot enough to sleep with. The most unrestricted the more likely to take in account superficial traits because she needs a fast assessment to gamble not a laundry list because she is playing for genes not providing for such genes.
    In the same way a 10 doesn’t have to have a nice personality or wifely skills to get a line of men to propose to her a man in stage or in the big screen doesn’t need anyone telling you how many other men he bested. Its obvious since not all of us get to be on the big screen.

    This is not a hard science like Math where you discover a formula and everything makes sense, this is more like Psychology were every patience is different, in this case patience means women. You cannot predict with 100% accuracy what a woman will do no matter how many women you meet, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    this is more like Psychology were every patience is different, in this case patience means women.

    Freudian slip? :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Freudian slip

    Nothing as interesting just plain typo.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    *shrug* I called out something that I thought was hypocritical, and INTJ had the opportunity to clarify. Nothing weird about that.

    I think he meant that it was the only part of the debate that wasn’t just a rehashing of old arguments.

  • Mike C

    It’s never wrong to judge someone based on their behavior. That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. Judge a woman based on the way she is behaving in your relationship. She’s either head over heels or she’s something less than that. Never settle for less than that.

    Susan, question for you here on this point. What specific actions or verbal statements should a guy look for to correctly identify her behavior indicates she is HOH. For example, I think it was Hope who mentioned she will tell her husband just how awesome she thinks he is. To me, that is a pretty crystal clear example. So I’d ask you to potentially list other items that would demonstrate this…I’m going to ask you to be as specific on this as possible. Assume us guys are 5-year old idiots that need specific step by step coloring directions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Ways that a woman shows she is head over heels in love:

      1. Hope’s strategy: Tells him. Frequently.

      2. Actively pursues opportunities for sex, and gets creative about it. Whether it’s lighting a dozen candles, wearing new lingerie, suggesting some new twist, a woman in love will apply her energy to creating sexy, romantic scenarios.

      3. She cannot get enough of stories from your boyhood and looking at photos or videos of when you were a kid. She wants to have your babies and says so.

      4. She makes a huge effort to connect with your family and friends. She is very eager that you also get to know the people in her life.

      5. She creates surprises or performs spontaneous generous gestures. She may cook something you love, arrange an outing doing something tailored to your interests, or even clean your apartment for you :P

      6. When you’re apart she misses you terribly and tells you so.

      7. She becomes emotionally moved or cries during sex with you.

      8. Spending time with you is her highest priority when she has free time.

      Basically, she makes you feel like a million bucks. You look at her and you say, “She’s crazy about me. I know she’ll never cheat on me. I make her really happy.”