The Failed Female Strategy of Life Splitting

That is why feminists hate this talk

http://blog.ted.com/2013/02/26/make-the-most-of-your-20s-meg-jay-at-ted2013/

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“the splitting of a life into “now” and “later” doesn’t work very well”

Biology aside, its not working because the notion being fed to women that men are just lining up with catchers mitts to field the leftovers is a major hoax.

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Another great post, Susan.

@PB

I suspect it is a hyper focus on one rather noticeable group.
I have female docs/scientists/other smart nerdy professions in my social group as well as run of the mill stuff.

A few haven’t dated and are career intensive but most are normal and have had a boyfriend while going to school. I’d say this was more normal then is typically believed.

Passer_By, I’ve never seen it either and I have been surrounded by women graduate students/medical students for the past 10 years.

Take it up with Tacitus. But I recommend that you understand him correctly first.

Hi, lurker here.

Wonderful post Susan!

@Passer_by and Tomato, I’m Midwestern with friends all over the country, and this is a prevailing mindset among women my age. I am 25 and will be 26 in October.

I am looked down on for foregoing an additional professional degree (though I don’t really *need* one) and wanting to be married with children. While not a prude in the least bit, I’m also looked down on for saving myself for marriage. I’m a media professional and am actively staying flexible by doing freelance work on the side and starting my own business on the side specializing in art and design, my passions, for when I do marry. Besides the entrepreneur bug, I want to be able to set my own hours, take a week off when I feel like it, ect. Again, this is a VERY ugly approach to life for many friends and family members. I’m currently single but am actively working on making marriage one of my goals.

I used to be like many of the young women who look down on me–very anti-relationship thanks to my mom and other women around me. They meant well, but things change when you answer a phone call from your boss’ husband asking when I think she’ll be home…true story. Another time I answered a call from her 5 yr. old daughter asking when mommy will be home (these calls get bounced to me when a line is busy).

Thanks, but no thanks…I’m grateful to have seen the error of my mindset as I was graduating college. For some time now I’ve been an avid lurker on your site and other men friendly/marriage/family sites. Hopefully there will be no in vitro at 47 for me!

Oh, and before I go I wanted to add my demographic may be a little different than many of those here–I’m a black woman raised in the inner city.

@Susan

It may not necessarily be feminists directly indoctrinating the girls but they definitely had a hand in forming the narrative that was “indoctrinated” into the parents that then got passed onto the daughters.

I think that as word gets out and young women see what’s happening to the older single or childless women that they’ll realize they have to be more realistic and choose relationships earlier, assuming they want them and children.

Interestingly enough, when I was in consulting, most of the female associates seemed to be married or in an LTR and a lot of the female entry-level consultants were in LTRs–I’d guess about half and half. But I wasn’t in NY and the impression I felt was that the NY office consultants thought they were the best and I imagine that more hard-charging females went there.

I know a handful of those high ranking exec types where I work – both male and female – and they’re the most miserable people I’ve ever seen despite the money they make. It wouldn’t surprise me if the women were even more miserable though. At least the men have the bonus (personally I consider it a Pyrrhic victory) of it funneling back into their SMV. The women don’t even have that. The executive mothers are the worst of all; and they’re execs in extremely cushy fields (HR) to boot.

The singleminded pursuit of status is a particularly insidious disease that turns previously happy, warm people into unfeeling simulacra of human beings that only hunger for more, more, more in the attempt to feed the black hole that just keeps growing and growing and growing.

Pick one thing and do it well. Do not choose the fantasy of ‘having it all’ over the reality of opportunity costs. Splitting your time leads to splitting your benefits.

@Saywhaat

“On top of that, even though my relationship *just* ended,”

Wait, what? I’ve been away. Magnum Man flew the coop? I’m sorry to hear that (even if you still think I’m like a pervy uncle).

“I need to husband-hunt during every spare moment until it’s clear that it isn’t happening.”

Well, no. I don’t think most people meet their spouses when they are in “husband hunt every spare minute” mode (putting aside arranged marriages and match making). I’m picturing you in Elmer Fudd garb, looking at the camera and saying “Shhhhh. Be vewy vewy quiet. I’m hunting husbands!”

I don’t think most people meet their spouses when they are in “husband hunt every spare minute” mode.

Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it?

“It will happen when you least expect it.”
“Love and happiness will find you.”
“It’ll happen right when you stop looking!”

vs.

“Marry and have babies before you’re 30.”
“Your 20s are for finding a spouse.”
“Your bio clock starts ticking at 27.”

How are we supposed to look without looking? : /

SayWhattttt,

The challenge is to manipulated your life into finding a mate, not challenging yourself to find a husband like it’s your job.

It’s not, I will head out of the door and find myself a husband today!

It is, I will go outside and do what I need to do and what I want to do, and I will interact nicely with man and make sure I am exposed to them.

As opposed to

I will go outside and do what I need to do and what I want to do, which does not involve men at all and I will act awkward around men because it feels safer than putting myself out there.

So, you needn’t worry, my good friend

@SayWhaat

First of all you have to be open to it (you are), 2nd, you have to put yourself in the environment where you’ll meet reasonable candidates, 3rd you show interest to men. (And the foundation of this is improving one’s looks and personality where possible but that’s another story so let’s leave that alone–and I’m not mentioning this related to you.)

I think where the looking can go wrong for women is that it makes them not filter well enough and they want to find someone so they accept the wrong guy. Women don’t suffer from appearing too eager nearly as much as men do (that’s more something that players that don’t want commitment complain about–but, women, don’t go all talking about marriage with him on the first couple dates) so it’s not the looking itself that is intrinsically wrong. Also, women who become too needy and clingy can turn off the man but I don’t think most American women have this problem. In fact, more have the opposite problem of being too aloof and not wanting a relationship.

So, I would say you should look. Just filter well and don’t be needy.

“Some of the reasons why I left the USA at some point and never turned back are quite well laid out in the quote of yours just above.
Business people (among others) over there “fascinate me” when they start talking about family values, yet promoting a corporate world that is precisely aimed at destroying family values for the sake of career achievement i/e corporate executives wanting more and more profit…not for the sake of everybody working for them, but for themselves.”

Better watch out there Mister. Someone’s gonna peek their head in and call you a “commie”. Or worse yet, a ……….SOCIALIST!!!!

I appreciate the honesty in this post, because I too am guilty of “the people here are idiots, get a job, don’t be inadequate, make some money, don’t be poor, don’t starve, don’t waste your life doing nothing you want, don’t be broke, don’t be shiftless!” Sometimes it’s like “The Ten Commandments” and I’m both the Hebrew slave and the whip-cracking Egyptian, and there isn’t even Vincent Price.
Cross your fingers for me, folks. I’ll do the same for you.

@MikeC
“Abbott, you didn’t know….male penises are also “knowledge rods”. I believe semen also has this “essence of self-knowledge” contained in it, and each penis and load has a different essence of self-knowledge. Therefore, the more multi-penis a woman engages in the further down the road of self-discovery and self-knowledge she travels.”
—
LMAO

@SayWhaat
Everyone else has said it better than me, but you’re proactive and sane and I think you’ll be OK in the future.

“This is the general attitude even on teen, and believe it or not, pre-teen sex ed websites.”

Whacky politics aside, this guy is saying a lot that is true. But why is this happening? What is the larger agenda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XR9yH2ETk

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1)There are a lot of people who work at home (or would like to) who don’t have babies, or, for that matter, in some cases, spouses.

2)Prior to the Industrial Revolution, all kinds of industries were carried out at home with children there. Textiles production, for example, often involved the wife spinning and the husband weaving, sometimes with a couple of apprentices in the mix.

In today’s world, is it really impossible to do (say) a graphic design job with a 10-year-old playing in the background and sometimes interrupting?

The Bennetts…”It depends if the graphic designer is good at multi-tasking or not.”

Which is precisely the reason the decision should be left a lower-level manager who knows the employee and his/her abilities and characteristics. If the chief executive believes the lower-level managers who are pushovers who can’t be trusted to do this properly, that’s a whole other problem.

Also, the average corporate or government office environment is not exactly interruption-free. Our graphic designer is most unlikely to have his/her own private office. Much more likely (s)he will be in a cubicle, with people talking on the phone in cubicles on two sides and random people dropping in to have work-related (or not) conversations at any given moment.

Saywhaat – “How are we supposed to look without looking? : /”

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but is comment made me chuckle. Mostly because I completely understand the frustration you are feeling.

Every single one of my LTR mates were “accidents” in that I met them all by chance.
1. Went to a HS party with a girl I was crushing on. She left with some other kid, and I sat next to her in a corner. Two introverts sitting in the dark at a party. Lol
2. Took my cousin somewhere (because her car went belly up) and dropped her off with a friend offers. We chatted and hit it off.
3. Met my ex at a band practice. Her brother was filling in on bass one day and she came by to pick him up after.
4. Met my current wife at a friends house one Friday night I was over taking some adult time to get my head straight from my impending divorce. She had just moved in two doors down and met my friends wife earlier that week. Friends wife invited her over so she wouldn’t be bored spending Friday night with her hubby and his friend.

So the point is: I never had a relationship with a woman I approached and asked out. They were all introduced through social circle of some sort, and in each case I was not actually looking at the time.

Don’t know how to turn that into practical advice though. :-p

“A lot of the other stuff may have been over the top but the over the top stuff are not the ONLY things PP is doing”

Its like a good bill being proposed in the US Congress. Lots of less good gets mixed in so it can ride the with the good. PP operates the same way. Its how they get the tax payer to foot the bill for services feminists always wanted the public to pay for.

“How are we supposed to look without looking?”

Wrong question. You should look–just don’t be desperate or undiscerning.

@Say Whaat

Sweetie, I’m probably your parents’ age or older , and I’m also pretty much invested in my sons’ material success, but even I have to tell you that your life is your own. Don’t live it in accordance with their expectations; pursue your own happiness. I spent a lot of time trying to make my parents happy; those were wasted years.

In fact, I’d extend that advice to everyone regarding the expectations of whomever. Everyone has opinions about the lives of others, but in the end we come into the work alone and we leave alone. Ultimately, we can’t live for others. That’s not to say we should live narcissistically, but we need to realize that we responsible to and for ourselves.

@thebennets

““How are we supposed to look without looking?” Sunglasses.”

Momma always told me not to look into the light of the sun. But mommmaaaa!!! That’s where the fun is!

From my understanding, college educated girls are more successful at getting married and enjoying a rewarding career.

If one have children too young, they are more likely to end up working dead end jobs.

I also think that North America is letting corporations get away with too much, and causing Salaries to drop to low.
The american dream was built on hard work, but if there are no incentives, and pay off, then things don’t progress.

Corporate America has a lot to answer for….their time will come.

@ SayWhaat
” I feel like every day/weekend that goes by without meeting new people is lost time and opportunity that I will never get back.”

I feel as if I could have written this! I am 22, but turning 23 this year. Even though early twenties is when you’re “starting out” at meeting someone and pursuing an education, there is so much focus on being young, that I feel like I should be in “my prime”, having everything together.
I think it’s a bit of a comfort that so many people extend their adolescence though (bad for them, good for me). I know women in their late twenties, like my sister, who has got nothing figured out. I even know some girls who say they will start looking for a husband at 30. So if you’re 23 and already have the attitude that 1) You must spend your twenties wisely and 2) Never waste time on guys that aren’t serious prospects, I think you’re ahead of many
There are a lot of men on the internet making girls freak out by saying they are practically off the market at 25. Looking at the way things actually are, most of the high quality men I know (who absolutely have options) have found girls that are 26-27 to settle down with. If you continue to develop your personality, you’ll be overall more desirable at 26 than now. If you don’t waste your time on assholes from 23, I think you’re on track.

That’s not what I “want” it to mean, but that is what it often “does” mean.

I think you vastly overestimate the importance of sexual experience in imparting wisdom. Personally (as someone who has studied epistemology more than a little) I believe that is a a phony argument spun up by hamsters in order to rationalize away bad and/or self-indulgent past decisions.

Susan and I disagree on this, FWIW.

Is the problem that women are having sex with alphas before settling down, or having sex, period? In other worse, would the apparent revulsion be tempered if these women had sex with betas or any other greek letter? Let’s be realistic, it’s not like women in their 20s are only having sex with alphas.

I wouldn’t have a problem to “agree to disagree” unless there is judgment and anger lurking behind the argument.
All I’m really advocating is to go on some dates, see who you click with, and once you meet someone you care about who appears to care about you, take a leap of faith and give it a chance. It’s not casual sex and I don’t think it’s crazy. I just don’t see excluding oneself from the market as a good strategy for meeting a husband, which is why I can see that those who want to remain virgins until marriage will struggle.
The idea that those who do date and have sex with a potential boyfriend secretly hate themselves for it in retrospective and try to “rationalize” it away is really far off to me. The only women I know with this attitude are those with high numbers who have slept around and are later being judged.

@Anne

“There are a lot of men on the internet making girls freak out by saying they are practically off the market at 25.”

50% of men are married at 25 with an average 0f 2-3 years in courtship/dating.

To be correct, half the men are off the market by the time they are 26 (which with the average age for women corresponds to 24).

Still a large pool but the number of potential husbands is halved by the time a woman is 24 (average age of marriage 26).

From the article: “Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value relationships with men so highly?”

Has anyone noticed what a bizarre question this is? Would anyone ask:

“Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value my cat or dog so highly?”

“Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value attractive clothing and jewelry so highly?”

“Why do I, a young and highly educated woman in the 21st century, value eating lunch and dinner so highly?”

The real question is why anyone would think that being “highly educated” and “in the 21st century” would negate basic human desires.

C S Lewis, in his fantasy novel That Hideous Strength, posited a sinister cabal which seeks, as part of its indoctrination proceedures, to kill “all specifically human reactions” in its new members.

Is that what is being done by higher education in its intersection with popular culture?

@Jackie

But why is it important that one practice what one preaches?

I believe it comes down to cases where one doesn’t know if what someone else is saying is true or worth following and so you look for other clues that lend a bit of credibility. “I don’t know if that’s a good thing, or this is a hard thing being asked of me, but he’s doing it and seems happy and sincere so I guess I’ll do it too.”

Logically, of course, a person can say truth x and live in manner not-x and x is still true, but at a human level many people have this desire to see congruency in practicing and preaching and in a setting where you have to decide to believe and follow or not this would have life and death consequences.

This is especially applicable to cases where a leader figure is requiring great sacrifices and so you want to know that the cause is sincere and that that leader isn’t laughing his ass off behind your back and mocking all the dubes that are giving him money and sacrificing, doing what he said, while he’s doing the complete opposite.

But, I’m curious, Jackie, why are you so concerned about Escoffier being congruous? And how, specifically, is he not being congruous? Is it the fact that he had premarital sex and doesn’t sound to be particularly repentant about it while promoting a return to highly-restricted sex-only-in-marriage values?

Anyway, I don’t have a bone in this “fight” but just curious. Cheers.

@blogrot

You could drop a friendly comment to the guy shopping next to you in the dog&cat food aisle at Target (as happened to me) or the guy working the garden center at Home Depot on the weekends.

You’re so right.

A short anecdote; a few years ago, I went a campaign to lose weight (and I did, too – about 40 lbs, and since I’m a small guy, that was not an insignificant amount). Besides the standard diet recommendations, I did this by doing as much walking as I could. I’d even walk around the office building a couple of times a day).

Eventually, people who knew me noticed that I was losing weight and commented, so I had brief conversations. Then I started greeting almost everyone I met in the halls, whether I knew them or not, with a “hi” or just a nod – anything to acknowledge their existence. Much to my surprise, they started acknowledging mine. Even the young, good looking women.

Out of habit, I started “acknowledging” people outside the office too, at Church, at the supermarket, on the street as I passed (even when I started running – a wave was sufficient). The feedback that I got was something just short of amazing. I have no doubt that if I had done that when I was in my 20s and/or single, I would not have needed a bar to meet women.

I understand that just greeting random people in the street – or even just making eye contact – sounds weird at first, and maybe even dangerous to some women in particular, and there places where you wouldn’t want to do that. But in general, it’s not. The briefest hint of recognition that your facing another human being is something pretty rare in an era where everyone is wearing ear buds. The results will surprise you, especially if you succeed in making it a habit.

Want to meet someone? Show them you know they exist.

@Lokland

LL, the discussion is about practicing what you preach.

Earlier, I asked you what you would tell your future daughters about being in a “semi-open” relationship. If they fell for a guy who wanted to do that to them, and asked you about your prior behavior, you said you would lie to them. You said you would tell them the truth about everything else, and you could be extremely convincing if you had to lie in this instance.

Personally, I have a different viewpoint. Like you consider my reserving sex for marriage (I am not a “born again” virgin) to be “morally bankrupt.” I shall just have to continue to live without your approval in this matter.

@Jackie

Also, I think it is important for one to practice what they preach for their own good. I wasn’t trying to say that people should make a habit of going around preaching a lot of stuff they don’t practice.

However, that is different from engaging in conversations where you point out the consequences of certain actions even if you yourself may be engaging in them.

It’s like a smoker saying that smoking will increase your chances of lung cancer. Should the smoker not say that? I think they should and they can give their experience of what it’s like and as they get older share the likely negative outcomes they experience. OTOH, if the smoker tells his son he doesn’t smoke and that the son is evil for smoking and then sneaks out back to take a smoke and then sneaks in to take a shower and go nuts with the mouth wash then that would be hypocritical and wrong, IMO. Those are two different cases.

And I think the smoking parent would be well-advised to encourage his son not to smoke. Now denying he himself smokes while telling the son not to is wrong and likely ineffective, especially if he gets found out.

@Joe 143

Great comment, for both men and women to acknowledge that other people exist, to get out of our self-induced bubbles. Let’s bring back some humanity to life.

Bully, new mom here. I don’t regret not going out, because I never went out much anyway. I don’t regret less free time, because I was wasting most of that time before our baby arrived. I don’t regret any of the work involved, because I love our baby boy so much.

I agree that people should make their own choices for themselves, but the woman you quoted is just one person. She can speak for her own regrets, but she does not speak for my regrets.

@Jackie

My bad, a thousand pardons.

@Jackie

I felt like living up to my Dad’s integrity is something that is the hardest work for me. If the rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I would feel manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.

I felt like that but replace ‘dad’ with ‘church’. My whole world view and spiritual world view was shattered:

I felt like living up to my [church’s standards was] something that [was] the hardest work for me. [The] rug got yanked out from under me– that I was somehow being lied to, I [felt] manipulated and like I couldn’t trust them.

What I mean is, I believe that men by nature (which is to say, most men most of the time) are innately jealous not just about their mate’s sexual present and future but about their past as well. Hence, to convince men that virginity is *bad* has required a heroic effort of brainwashing.

I know from my own youth that the message out there was strongly pushed on us that we should “not care about the past.” Anyone who does is “insecure,” etc. And yet it didn’t work on me or anyone I knew. I later came to conclude that the instinct was so powerful it simply cut through and overrode all the propaganda.

I guess now, decades later, the message has finally succeeded and men choose the propaganda freely, over and agaisnt their own innate desires.

Hence, to convince men that virginity is *bad* has required a heroic effort of brainwashing.

Welcome to America. Here’s your hamburger.

Personally, I am definitely not waiting for marriage to have sex. However, I do prefer to have sex within the context of a healthy relationship. Amongst my friends, I am the last of the virgins.

There is one 25yr old girl who is waiting for marriage because of strong religious beliefs. I say kudos to her. I don’t think have the self-restraint to wait that long!

“Is there a solution? Should driven women look for less driven men who would happily work a lower-performance job and raise their children?”

“That’s the obvious solution. It’s doubtful that it will be widely adopted by the most ambitious women, who are the ones it would benefit the most, because these are not men that these women generally respect very much, and are therefore not very attracted to them as mates. ”

I know a good handful of SAHDs but their wives are all firmly middle-class, middle-management types, not over-achievers, CEOs or even high level executives, so you may be right.

SayWhaat, I totally understand what you said, coming from a Chinese family of not one but two medical doctors. But you know what, my parents are miserable people! My father is a rich anesthiologist who will be growing old alone, and my mother is a narcissist who will alienated everyone in her life. I didn’t want to be like them one bit.

I went to Northwestern which is on par with NYU, and there were expectations of higher success for me. I disappointed my mother by not going to graduate/business/medical school, and I didn’t marry a super wealthy guy like she wanted me to do. However, I won’t be putting up with mistresses like she did before my father divorced her. I may not be as educated as my older cousin who is over 30, has a PhD and lives in Beijing, but I am happy and love my husband and baby.

BTW, hospitals are NOT fun places.

In my last post, “will alienated” should be “has alienated.”

SayWhaat, where would you raise kids then? Upstate NY? Actually my father lived there for a while. Still quite expensive I believe. I say go out west. More men, less competition for the men, and get away from your parents.

“Basically, they’re worried about my future, and they want me to have a promising future so that other Indians won’t look down on me. They won’t say it, but there’s a great deal of status in the community involved. My mom keeps telling me to marry a doctor so that she’ll know that I’ll be taken care of.

Ugh. I have no use for such politics, but I have a strong desire to not shame my family, either. I think this may be a difficult concept for Westerners to understand. :/”

But I don’t understand what the problem is. You Indians have the benefit of always being able to opt for arranged (or assisted) marriage via your families’ large national and often international connections.

So women being virgins is good, but men being virgins is bad, which leads me to ask who are these men having sex with??

PS by “I dont understand” I mean precisely that. It’s not an encoded way of saying “that’s wrong”, actually it sounds interesting, but it makes about as much sense to me as water flowing uphill. I’d kind of stare at it, thinking “wha????”

All this talk about virginity, and Cooper is nowhere to be seen! He must be a busy man…

SayWhaat, if I may, you are still young and have time, but if by say 27 you are not married I would opt for allowing your parents to work some connection magic. I say this because I know a number of Indian women pushing 40 who had planned to be married with kids by their early 30s at the latest but because they would not allow their parents to help, are single today. Single today doesn’t mean they are not dating, oh that they are. One or 2 is even living with a “partner” who refuses to either marry them or give them children. This is not what they had planned for their lives.

Of course now they are too old and all of the Indian men their own age are married with kids and the only other Indian men who will even look at them are much older divorced or widowered uncle types.

@Susan

Hey Susan!

I really appreciate what you have to say and also wanted to say “thanks” for letting me participate, even though I am a weirdo outlier.

My mom was like you, in that she talked about things honestly and also started bringing up boys, dating, sex, etc all within the context of “Choices.” She didn’t say one way or the other was best.

Also, she had never tried to deceive me about things like Tooth Fairy and Santa when I was younger (she didn’t lie, she would ask, What do you think?) so there was trust present.

I think sex isn’t as important as finding a guy who shared my values. If I could find a fellow religious man who was serious about caring for “the least of us,” seeking God and being his best self, that is my highest value.

Abbot, what exactly do you find objectionable to that article?

“Gonna do my damned best to not let things come to that, though. Lol.”

I want to share a few examples; one of an Indian woman who refused to date non-Indians, and another who refused to date Indians.

The first one wanted to date different men in her twenties and choose her own spouse without parental involvement. Nevertheless she would only date other Indians and was convinced this tactic would land her a fantastic Indian husband and family by 30 tops. She found that some Indian men were very picky and would not commit to her for reasons such as her social drinking. Some would not commit to her because of her religion or cultural background, despite her being Indian like them. A few times she came close to official engagement but for one reason or other the men called it off.

Despite all this she refused to cast her net wider and date non-Indians and she also refused arranged marriage. She is single, childless and pushing 40 today.

The other took the exact opposite route. She refused to date fellow Indians and would only date non-Indians. Under that circumstance naturally an arranged marriage was out of the question. She is also single, childless and pushing 40 today.

Different paths, same destination.

Both women did not cast their nets wide enough and both refused to consider arranged marriage.

That’s terrible! Poor girls. What a horrible way to be introduced into sexual relationships.

I know that in one case the guy left my friend because she was fired from her job where she made a lot of money and had perks like transportation and fancy meals when they met. Upon leaving her he got involved with a younger and poorer woman probably thinking to hit it and quit it. But she got pregnant ‘accidentally’ and she doesn’t work. He didn’t married her but he had to take economic responsibility for the child due to family pressures. He is of course regretful and wanted to be back with my friend, ‘coincidentally’ she has a good job again now, but obviously is not in the cards for him. I don’t know what happened to the other guy, but is a small country things are bound to come around sooner or later.Karma is really a bitch.

It’s not feminists indoctrinating women, it’s parents, encouraging their daughters to pursue career opportunities and success before allowing their thoughts to turn to “settling down.”

It’s both, feminists directly indoctrinating women and parents, and parents indoctrinating the daughters with a usually watered-down version of feminism. I wonder what these parents would think if they realize that by encouraging the excessive postponement of serious relationships in order to pursue career that they are causing some of their daughters to enter low-probability of marriage or children territory–and in doing so, weeding their very own genes out of the gene pool.

Okay, I am exaggerating a lot, but UMC parents apply a LOT of pressure to “win.”

It is one of the defining characteristics of Millennials. You can’t really blame feminism for all of it.

@ Bells and INTJ:

You guys are still in college, right? IMO, you’ve got great opportunities right there. Half of the reason I’m even considering grad school is for an MRS degree.

I complained a lot about NYU’s demographics, but the other commenters here are spot-on regarding “positioning”. One of my girlfriends got a boyfriend after he noticed she basically lived in the library. I met a guy at a friend’s party and another in my Economics class. Another girlfriend was rarely without male attention because she was in the business school.

One of my biggest dating failures was (is) not making myself visible. You both can still capitalize on that while you’re still in college.

I’m not going to wait till marriage for reasons of viability (if you think female virgins have it hard, try male virgins). But I do think it would be the ideal mating system.

I don’t. I arrived at that conclusion even before HUS. Even my recent relationship demonstrated that too much can go wrong when there is a big mismatch in sex drive.

The decreasing exposure to possible candidates after college and thus extending singleness longer may be another reason why radfems (and less radical ones too) don’t want college adults (I am going to stop referring to them as kids) to think about marriage.

Keep men and women single as long as possible and the result will be women single longer, meaning they are more likely to work, less likely to have kids and greater economic power.

Keep men and women single as long as possible and the result will be women single longer, meaning they are more likely to work, less likely to have kids and greater economic power.

I honestly don’t think radfems are as devious as this. I think that they’re simply laser-focused on increasing the ranks of women across the board, without regard to the unintended consequences or what other women may actually desire (“what woman wouldn’t want equal pay??”).

@ADBG, 252

+1

Expectations tend to run a tad high which is of course strange. The average parents wanting their average child to be world leader someday, though admirable are truly delusional (and can be quite damaging).

I will include my mother in this category.

My fathers a hard ass and has always been difficult to impress but at least his expectations were sane.

@SW

“Yeah. It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.”

Two problems with this statement;

1. What is the net positive effect on her? her relationship? her boyfriend/husband?

I see none.

2. Does this not imply that these women make better mates than those who do not choose to play with fire?
How much better are they then? There must be a measurable way in which those who chose to play with fire are better wives/mothers than those who do not?

Again, I do not see it.

A Definite Beta Guy: And at what cost? What is the point of all this pointless posturing of the UMC towards their children when they’re clearly making them quite miserable?

Maybe it’s my LMC origins but it seems so very empty to me.

“There must be a measurable way in which those who chose to play with fire are better wives/mothers than those who do not?”

Its a failed experiment. Misery abounds among women in this society more than ever. Grandma was plenty wise so lets go with it: she did not need multipenis to “figure herself out” or “grow as a person” hogwash. Generations of women didn’t. Don’t be a victim of the current festering social pathology.

PJ, shut up.

Of course, lets never forget the classic

http://biodork.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/friedman.png

Hear my bellow!
.

@Bells

Kiwi

@HS

I disagree with the Radfem evil genius bit. Especially wrt pushing back marriage and no kids.

There are other places in the world experiencing the same problems.
But even more so.

Some of them lack feminism.
Some of them lack (or have low quantities) or hook up culture or for that matter women who have Ns more than one (or very close too).
Some of them have but do not use the pill.

But they all have delayed marriage and less children.

I don’t think its nearly as much of a problem is people are led to believe but it is an effect that seems independent of feminism.

My fathers a hard ass and has always been difficult to impress but at least his expectations were sane.
That means William is not going to be the first Dominican in space?

PJ, shut up.
If you don’t mind I will be stealing this line in the future.

@ SayWhaat

You guys are still in college, right? IMO, you’ve got great opportunities right there. Half of the reason I’m even considering grad school is for an MRS degree.

Wait whaat???? And here I was banking on things getting better once people get out of hookup culture.

It says that she used to be naive and grew a little wiser.

It says that she is one more cliche who made her “mistake” with an asshat and not with a beta that she will later claim is her ‘true’ desire.

Dear SayWhaat, I have never reduced it to one factor, though I may not mention the additional factors in every comment. If you have read my posts I have often said that the underlying factor that is permitting women the power they have today is the advances in technology that have obviated the advantage that physical strength gave men and produced incredible wealth, security, and reproductive freedom. This affects nearly every society on earth, from Iran (with very low birth rates) to Africa to Norway.

On top of this underlying and almost inexorable trend, culture can amplify or diminish things. Western hyper focus on individualism and materialism increases the shift towards not getting married and having children, in both men and women. Feminism (especially the more extreme strains) also have had an effect on things.

I will agree that some feminists want to improve the lives of women but disagree in that others don’t–they want women to further their goals of achieving collective overt female power (in education, work, reproduction, politics, etc.). In areas of injustice I support them. In areas where they want to create injustice against men and women who have other worthy goals, I don’t.

“There are all sorts of economic and cultural and biological powers at play – we can’t reduce it all down to one political motivation.”

In the West, feminists capitalize on this by injecting other agendas and they do this well since they know women are vulnerable and easy to sway

@Lokland

Obviously you can only see the effects of feminism where feminism has made sufficient inroads. See my reply to SayWhaat on how I don’t say feminism is the “culprit” for everything, or even the fundamental “culprit.”

MRAs are the same as feminists, maybe second wavers. There are no male equivalents to radfems, though. Spend a few minutes on radfemhub and try to find a make equivalent anywhere.

As for making mistakes, everyone hates a goody. Is the reverse now. Sadly, people these days dont trust people who actually somehow avoid making mistakes. Boring!

One of my Chrisitian friends who struggles with fidelity even admits to it, she sees that people who screw up as more real and more trustable. She confided in me that she was impressed that I was strong as a kid and adult and able to resist temptation where she couldn’t, and then admitted in the same breath that it’s hard to fully trust and like people like that.

I think it’s messed up, but fuck it. They’re right in a twisted sort of way.

@ Kiwi

What’s the female equivalent of the firey alpha cad that men get burned by and that sorta says something about them?

I’d guess the bitchy sluts. The analogy doesn’t really hold though, as men are required to approach women and thus they can be forgiven for choosing the wrong person and getting burned, while women don’t have to approach men so they can put their attention into filtering out the alpha cads.

Anyways, the point is moot, since I haven’t been burned yet, so I shouldn’t be expected to commit to someone who has.

Anyways, the point is moot, since I haven’t been burned yet, so I shouldn’t be expected to commit to someone who has.

Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

Bells,

no way! Talk about setting up a recipe to have an awful first time with some random, rich, and (most likely) unattractive stranger.

Well, one out of three ain’t bad. Gee, I was just trying to be helpful.

“But having to live a life where my mates past was a painful daily reminder of my own inadequacies would become a torturous hell.”

Then for the multipenised woman to “win” she has to be hyper hypergamous. That is, she not only has to marry-up to be satisfied, she has to marry up to or better than her best ever such that the husband is satisfied. Otherwise, his misery will eventually become her misery.

@ SayWhaat

Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

WTH? Often I say things and don’t remember saying them, but I can confidently say I would not have said this. One can’t even begin to compare the amount of hurt caused by the two. They’re orders of magnitude apart. (Well, to be sure, I don’t know what being raped would actually feel like, but I do know the social embarrassment from it being an affront to my masculinity would be extreme – at least assuming the rapist was male).

“getting rejected for sex is how men learn their SMV.”

How does a woman learn?

Weren’t you the one who said getting your feelings hurt from rejection was similar to rape?

WTH? Often I say things and don’t remember saying them, but I can confidently say I would not have said this. One can’t even begin to compare the amount of hurt caused by the two. They’re orders of magnitude apart.

Glad to hear it. Perhaps it was just a poorly-constructed analogy.

I can get very focused on an individual task to the point little less than a nuke or pushing me into a wall can get me out of focus. My wife finally figured out that speaking to me while I’m reading/writing/thinking is largely not worth it.
I think this might be a common trait for really smart guys. Hubby is like that when he is in “The zone”, nothing moves him out of it. I mostly put food next to him so he won’t starve himself…Again.

Depression is a bitch. It is extremely difficult to deal with it. I’ve gotten better with age, but it tore my life apart for quite a while. It’s definitely not any sort of statement about you. A lot of us are damaged in a lot of ways that are not immediately obvious, but quickly come to the forefront when we become vulnerable.

Sometimes, you do the filtering you need to do it, and it just doesn’t work out. Nothing wrong with that.

Thanks, ADBG. I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out where I could have messed up so that I don’t make the same mistakes next time, and it’s a gnawing concern, especially when it comes to marriage. He was acutely aware that our relationship ended in a *very similar* manner to his parents’ marriage (his dad just grew so emotionally distant that his mother grew tired and allowed him to leave), and I know that it hurt him.

You’re right, sometimes it just doesn’t work out. Which makes the concept of marriage scarier, but that’s part of managing relationships. Commitment isn’t just exclusivity, it’s also the resolve to work through problems.

A guy that burns you, alpha or beta, is a cad in my book. Whether you want to distinguish between both to rationalize your insecurity speaks volume about a guy’s fear, not my equal feelings of rejection. It’s like some guys are trying to have a dick contest from *inside* my vagina and I say no. The thing is whether you date or hook up with a alpha or beta, you have 50% chances to get burnt because that is how life works anyway, no guarantees.
I personally would have no use for a guy busy classifying my exes and seeing how he feels about them; sounds too self-involved to me.

SMV assessment
This might be odd but no one uses a mirror anymore? Just curious.

@ Hope

ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

Yup. FWIW, I also feel that nerdy girls are fully justified in filtering out the guys who used to go ignore them and go for the hot bitchy girls.

Thanks for the supportive comments, guys. I’ve been pulling some long days at work recently, and discussing my ex has made me beyond emotionally exhausted, so I’m calling it a night. See y’all in the morning.

Ego inflation
Would you elaborate on this?

Sometimes I swear that my body is trying to trick me into getting pregnant.,/i>
It is…

@ INTJ,

Most women don’t even know the Alpha/Beta classification; Red Pill talk is not that widespread yet. So while a girl would be saying “I had 2 bfs before one was in a [Alpha activity] and the other was into [Beta activity] but it ended badly with both” for her, the result is failure in both cases, regardless of what type of guys they were. Relationship fail is what I’m saying and everybody makes mistakes. We all think there is an awesome person waiting for us around the corner, maybe the guy/girl is THAT awesome. What I’m saying is that I consider the end result, relationship didn’t survive and it happens with all types of guys, alpha or beta.

@ Bells,

Your body is tricking you, it is TELLING you to get a guy ASAP and get busy. It does the same to me, and I can say (***TMI ZONE***) masturbation doesn’t do it those days, I can feel it, only the superior physical strength of a man applied on the body can get rid of the general restless feeling that takes over. It sounds like some sort of medicine lol.
Celibacy is getting unbearable some days.

I obviously meant *isn’t tricking you*

Right before my boyfriend and I broke up, we were barely having sex. The frequency didn’t slow down to a steady amount as I had expected, it plummeted off a cliff. It became that the only time we ever had sex was when I asked for it. He started talking about experimenting with celibacy as part of his exploration with Buddhism. Obviously that didn’t fly well with me.

Just curious, how long had you been together when the plummeting took place?

A Definite Beta Guy,

“The homing sperm cells zoom in on ICBM warheads and actually go backwards through time and that’s what REALLY caused the USSR to collapse.”

This lady’s son was commissioned by the US Congress to repopulate Alaska, while the other mom’s son is responsible for the Asian population crisis;

@ Bells,

LOL I hear you, I definitely did cross the line myself tonight. FWIW, we mostly hear about how hard celibacy is on men, a bit of diversity can help around here.

ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.

Hope,

Yes, I think the vast majority of men feel some instinctual need to feel like they are the “best” guy she has had or can get. Generally speaking, I think most men “know their place” in the hierarchy so most men know if another man is objectively better than them (in terms of looks, social status, etc.). It simply is very uncomfortable if you know she has had a “better” man in the past. That is the fuck phantoms Bastiat talks about. And if there are objectively better men in her past, there is always the nagging “settling” issue.

INTJ: “Think of the KKK member railing about how women should be barefoot and pregnant. ”

OTC: “You call that equivalent to a radfem who advocates killing off of most men, since we only really need few of the best ones? Never mind, don’t wanna get into this.”

Considering that KKK members advocate killing off competition, and that too usually a particularly choice demographic of competition….

A guy that burns you, alpha or beta, is a cad in my book.

Obviously, a guy who lies to get sex fits the bill here, but I am genuinely curious what other sorts of examples you would consider “being burned”?

Whether you want to distinguish between both to rationalize your insecurity speaks volume about a guy’s fear, not my equal feelings of rejection. It’s like some guys are trying to have a dick contest from *inside* my vagina and I say no. The thing is whether you date or hook up with a alpha or beta, you have 50% chances to get burnt because that is how life works anyway, no guarantees.
I personally would have no use for a guy busy classifying my exes and seeing how he feels about them; sounds too self-involved to me.

You of course have every right to feel however you want, but I’ll simply note the both your opening and closing of this paragraph is essentially entirely dismissive of the idea that a guy has feelings or is even entitled to his feelings and of course you include the buzzword “insecurity”. FWIW, I’ve read enough of your comments to know you don’t really understand male psychology at all, or just how common certain thoughts/feelings are across most men. FWIW, I’ve had the opportunity to be around many different guys of different stripes. I’ll tell you this as food for thought….the guys most able to not be “jealous” or “insecure” are also the guys who are most likely to see all women as fungible commodities, replaceable, and unlikely to form a deep emotional investment with one woman. You might ponder that one.

Most women don’t even know the Alpha/Beta classification;

So what? Just because most women are not intellectually aware of the classifications doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and more importantly guys amongst each other know who is who even if they don’t use those specific terms. The engineering student knows he isn’t in the same category of guys as the President of the football team fraternity.

The thing you are not getting is the engineering student doesn’t want to have to compete with the fraternity President, and the more important point is the lack of congruence if a woman dates the engineering guy but dated the President in the past. Congruence is a very important concept. It is stressed often in Game circles. I think there is an equivalent female congruence, and that is that a woman has shown consistency in the “type of man” she dates/gets involved in.

A woman just has to season a post with those key words for reason to disappear regardless of whether or not she saying something sensible. A pity!

Well, using the word “insecure” with men is probably very similar to using the word “irrational” with women. In some cases, it may actually be correct and applicable and be part of something that is sensible, but it dangerous to use. One could dismiss a woman’s POV on something by simply stating “you are just being irrational and emotional”. Now I’ve just discarded the entirety of your POV and statement by just using a few loaded terms. Put another way, there are certain words that are used to inflame, dismiss, and trigger reactions.

Btw, the loser/winner dichotomy was introduced by ADBG in this thread, just surfing the wave here. I don’t see men this way but it seems men see each other that way, ranks and hierarchy soothe you.

Well…2 things here. First, you weren’t using in the same way ADBG was using it. Second, it is kind of like the N word. Two black people can use it amongst themselves without any of the associated pain or hurt. I think two guys can use that term amongst each other in sort of a joking manner, but I think generally when a woman uses that term in regards to a man the intent is clearly to demean. I’ve actually noticed women do this with “bitch” as well but there is no way a man can call a woman a bitch in some joking, friendly humor kind of way.

@Susan

“women don’t categorize men, men do that to themselves.”

But they do work in a pre-set and specific order going downward that happens to coincide with the male hierarchy?

Coincidence?

@Lokland,

Not necessarily; if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy? Is someone dumping Zuckerberg for Gates? If. A guy is unable to provide for potential kids (financially, proper involvement in child rearing, stable environment…) then he falls at the bottom period. If you can’t get your GF a candy bar on valentines, you prolly won’t be buying a diaper when baby is here. This is the only hierarchy that is worth applying to men, the difference between those who want to commit and those who don’t. The rest is fluff imo. You’ll notice that in Susan’s example, the guy with the conservative job, finance, won in the end. I think men establish those categories in order to reach a niche of the sexual market, and women pick from them. We just follow your lead on that one, however when you add the fact that women can provide for themselves, they simply bypass the categories below them and of course men falling below the bar feel it.

“It all boils down to insecurity.”

If that is true, is it bad for women? What possible ways could men get come up with to get around this “insecurity” thingy?

@Abbot,

It’s bad for everybody because men tripping over some other guy activities is just excluding himself from the race. This isn’t 19th century Japan. You get multiple shots at finding happiness provided you can learn from your mistakes and others’. And women don’t get to display those feminine qualities because they get rejected on only one criteria when it takes considerably much more than that to keep a relationship alive. If you feel insecure about your wallet, your looks or agreability, your domestic skills…etc then work on it and make yourself the most attractive you can be and put yourself out there for people to see it and you’ll find someone. It works for men and women. There is no point in wallowing in the company of ghosts, this is the realm of the dead.

“Insecurity leads to obsession, anger, jealousy, and lack of trust.”

In summary, discomfort.

Then it behooves a man to merely avoid women who, per their prior behaviors, causes him to feel uncomfortable. Certainly, this is not difficult.

No, it behooves a man to build his self-confidence, lest he drive away perfectly good mates because of his insecurities. Self-confidence is important not just for relationships, but for careers and life in general.

@ Tomato

I agree with you. I read a few post back, and someone commented that he would prefer a hot girl with a higher number (since hot girls get approached more) than an average girl with a high number because he would rather be a beta guy chosen among the alpha to be with her than just another guy in the average girl’s bed.

When it comes to virgin, there is no competition. Thus, a man who is bad in bed can never be compared to her other lovers because she got none.

I also agree with you when it comes to child rearing. The court usually award the children to the primary caretaker, and many men leaves the child rearing to their wives. Yet they are shock when it comes to who gets custody.

This makes me think about the conversation I had with my Uncle, when I asked him why he rejected my 55 year old friend for being too old.

I told him that he might be a little bit too old to have children and so it is best to date post-menopause women.

He told me that if he did get a young girl pregnant, she would do the child rearing. So no, he doesn’t think he is too old to have children. Besides, he told me that the thought of getting them pregnant means that he is still a man.

Funny how a man knowing what he wants and sticking to it, in the face of massive contrary cultural pressure–direct and indirect, personal and impersonal–now counts in some minds as “insecure” when, according to the dictionary definition, the real meaning would be closer to the exact opposite.

I suppose this is a great example of what the manosphere calls a “re-frame.” Orwell called it “newspeak.”

@Mireille

“if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy? if the bottom line of provider is met then who cares about male hierarchy?”

You seem to not fully comprehend what we are talking about.
We are not discussing a woman going from a provider to alpha but alpha to provider.

Feel free to argue that point. There are some in the manosphere who will take the bait but at this point your talking in an empty room.

The rest of us are discussing an entirely different topic.

JP, does disability insurance cover all costs for the family and continue to pay out until death? I am not familiar with this area. In other words, does there come a point when the wife must start working to make ends meet?

Great writing, Sassy!

Unfortunately you missed something – given the choice of doing all that stuff, it’s a lot easier to say “forget it, I’ll just set my sights a bit lower and not commit”.

Oh, and all Mirielle’s stuff is so smarmy and typical of what I read everywhere. Good luck with that attitude.

I have to scratch my head at the women demanding a “rational” explanation for (most) men’s denial of a low-N girl, and the attempts by some to provide that explanation. Not that I am against rational explanations, I love them, so by all means, answer as best you can.

That’s not what is being discussed.

All of the female commenters here benefit if men decide to date women with low N.

The issue is when those same guys hold that low N against us. I mean, if my ex becomes a famous opera star and my next boyfriend gets intimidated by that and accuses me of banging alphas, I wouldn’t know what to say to him. Self-confidence comes from within.

@ SayWhaat

<blockquoteThe issue is when those same guys hold that low N against us. I mean, if my ex becomes a famous opera star and my next boyfriend gets intimidated by that and accuses me of banging alphas, I wouldn't know what to say to him. Self-confidence comes from within.

Good point. I don’t know what could be said in such a situation.

You guys are tilting at windmills. Reread #458.

I’d like to cosign Sassy’s post. Maybe I’m weird, but while I find that most of the male population meets my “dominance” requirements (80%+), I also only find about 20-30% of my male peers physically attractive.

The good news is that a bit of effort goes a long way. For example, in terms of “raw material”, IMO the average North American guy is naturally better-looking than the average British guy. But because North American guys tend to dress like total slobs, I actually find myself attracted to a larger percentage of the Brits. Even though they’re not as naturally attractive, the styling make a huge difference. (YMMV as usual.)

” Reread #458.”

463 put that to bed

“That may be the main reason women avoid such men. Men avoid such women for commitment because it feels right to do so. Men proudly and securely place higher value on women with low N and today more than ever before. Women rarely value men in this way and that is their CHOICE. Since it is their choice, it is a single standard that women and men prioritize differently. Of all the criteria that men use to select a woman, why is sexual past the ONLY one that is such a nasty ass hang up for women? Why do they hate that particular criteria so much?”

I think that is an accurate assessment.

I believe commitment for men has a bigger consequence if chosen badly.

Although, I wonder how much one can expect a lower N if the Man and woman are older. Choosing a mate in their 40’s and 50’s is much different than their 20’s and 30’s.

“another attempt to “re-frame.”

Maybe the re-framers can explain why this goal is important

Tomato, 458 is just another attempt to “re-frame.”

I disagree. If a girl has a low N with alphas, she’s likely to be of higher SMV than the girl who was promiscuous with betas, no? In which case, the guy is projecting his fear of being unable to retain a high-SMV woman that may or may not be justified.

@ Tomato

“ADBG and INTJ, really interesting to read that you’d prefer a higher N with “losers” than lower N with “winners.” I guess in a twisted way that makes sense, as you have a higher likelihood to be the “best” and beat out her past with the former scenario.”

It all boils down to insecurity.

Hardly. I don’t appreciate being sloppy seconds or waiting on the sidelines while someone sexes up an alpha err makes a mistake. Self-respect =/= insecurity.

“Eh, he was a pauper while we were dating. I think I’ll be okay.”

To the guy to whom this matters, this will not matter.

To the guy to whom this matters, this will not matter.

*shrug* Ok.

If this is the case, you should probably stick to dating minor/psuedo celebrity males from now on.

Or go for neurosurgeons like my mom wants me to.

What is being discussed here is the idea that there is a distinction between prior sexual partners, and that more dominant sexual partners are a red flag, while less dominant sexual partners might not be. It’s the old alpha/beta bugaboo.

This is just one of several reasons why I can’t extrapolate things stated here to the larger male population. This is a concern that whirrs almost exclusively throughout the ‘sphere. Go on other forums like Reddit, and you’ll witness a different tale.

Susan,

That may be what some of the commenters mean but not all, and certainly not the most vocal (one), who take(s) a much broader view.

But in any event, why again is one concern (high N) OK and the other (alpha past) not, and automatically the mark of “insecurity”?

To get personal again, my Grace Kelly/Christy Turlington grad school GF had at least one alpha star in her past, a French intellectual who I gather was not especially nice to her, in addition to living in another country, which propelled the break-up. Like I have said before, I never asked her for any details but I was able to glean a little info here and there and my conclusion was that I was, at best, second best. Good enough for now, the best available at the moment, etc., but not choiceworthy for my own sake. This was one (but hardly the only) reason why “it didn’t work out.”

Now, Mirelle can call me “insecure.” (Go ahead, I can take it!) But in my own mind, I was being rational. This will serve as response to SayWhaat as well: every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.” The women here tend to endorse this principle in the abstract but rebel at specific examples and revert back to calling men “insecure.”

Since men also know in our bones (whether we have heard the terminology or not) that women are hypergamous, a past lover/BF of significantly higher status than ourselves is a red flag that makes us feel “settled for” and “second best”. (At best.) I think there is an element of rationality to this feeling, but even if you don’t, surely you can see that if the feeling persists (as it often does), then the rational thing for the guy to do is move on and look elsewhere.

@ Escoffier

every guy who commits to a girl for the long haul wants to know in his bones that he is her number one, not “right now” but “ever.”

In most ways/aspects/qualities, or in all ways/aspects/qualities?

“In most ways/aspects/qualities, or in all ways/aspects/qualities?”

And now I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering – “Well, past bf 1 was a lawyer but he was fat, and past bf 2 was a rock star but a cheater, and past bf 3 was a successful small business owner but he was controlling. So that makes me…”

I think I would be more insecure if the woman I was dating had any connection to past boyfriends, via Facebook.
Even if they weren’t sleeping together anymore.

And now I’m picturing a guy sitting with a checklist and pondering – “Well, past bf 1 was a lawyer but he was fat, and past bf 2 was a rock star but a cheater, and past bf 3 was a successful small business owner but he was controlling. So that makes me…”

Just another asshole, I guess. Lol.

“If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex…”

Then the ex was just a vagstuffer? That should be fine with good ol numero uno. Yep.

@ SW

And every guy should know that every woman has a different formula for attraction. If she prioritizes IQ over physical appeal, then a smarter guy would still be her Number One over her dumb, hunky ex, even if her #1 has a less well-defined body.

We have been over this many times before, people .

Yes, and we have also gone over how attraction triggers are malleable and how they change over time.
So?
Men do not have Women-Weighting-Formula Radars. If I am on a date, in a relationship, hell, even MARRIED to you, I do not and cannot know how you are weighting each of my individual attributes.
Therefore investigating your past and seeing what you have liked in the past, and your explanations for it, are an important part of the filtering process.
Because we don’t know how you feel, we don’t know how you weight, we don’t know how you stack up or we stack up.
That’s filtering.
It seems the women-folk here would like to apply a “she’s in a relationship with you, therefore she obviously likes you” explanation, which is trying to argue that men should not be filtering.

That is, of course, separate from what I initially discussed, which is then men do not want to feel like losers when with their SOs.

You said earlier that you can’t help the way we perceive things. That’s ridiculous. You can easily change the way other people perceive you. That’s called making an impression, putting your best foot forward, etc.

Just saying, “oh well, I can’t help it,” sounds to male folk like you are giving up, which means you just don’t want to make your man feel like a winner. And then the “insecure” talk sounds like shaming because you don’t want to or can’t make your man feel like a winner.

I am not saying you are a bad girlfriend, but that’s how this talk is probably being interprted in male minds, which is why it is being interpreted as hostile.

Tomato can call me insecure until the cows come home, I don’t care. Ain’t gonna change a thing.

“Who can all plainly see who the chump is. Ah, the good ol USA”

@Abbot

Chump is right.
Facebook is a primary tool in dating these days.
It is difficult to date women without them using FB as a communication device.
One can develop an inferiority complex over it, particularly if past boyfriends are on a friends list.

You said earlier that you can’t help the way we perceive things. That’s ridiculous. You can easily change the way other people perceive you. That’s called making an impression, putting your best foot forward, etc.

Just saying, “oh well, I can’t help it,” sounds to male folk like you are giving up, which means you just don’t want to make your man feel like a winner. And then the “insecure” talk sounds like shaming because you don’t want to or can’t make your man feel like a winner.

*sigh* This is precisely what I mean about perception.

I can’t help it if a guy is threatened by an ex that he perceived to be alpha. For me, that ex was beta, and I am at peace with the congruence of my decisions.

If the guy can’t deal with that, then we are each better served by dating other people.

It definitely behooves men to maximize their SMV/MMV. Doing so does require being brutally honest with oneself, in order to identify inadequacies.

Absolutely! And I’ll add that maximization process also involves optimization of where it is best to spend energy and efforts improving. The low-hanging fruit for just about every guy is working out regularly and simply developing a more fit, lean body. Dressing better is another easy one, but you may have to consult someone in the know.

Women have been granted the chance to be more choosy over the most recent decades due to the sexual revolution, feminism, economic prosperity, and other cultural factors. In the distant past, most women did not have a choice in the men that they married. Many women married men for merely financial security, actual attraction be damned. Many women were also involved in arranged marriages, primarily once again for financial security. Most women in the past simply did not have the option to marry for love/attraction, since society encouraged young women to marry older financially established males. Overall, women did not have the power to demand more or reasonably expect more out of their men. They got married, they had children, and they kept the home fires burning, love/attraction/happiness be damned.

FWIW, I’m pretty much in complete agreement with you, and unlike many I don’t wax nostalgic for the “good old days”. But that choosiness is a double-edged sword with some negative consequences as well.

First, for many women, their level of choosiness is at a mismatch with their actual SMV. I was visiting my Mom in the skilled nursing facility and a friend of hers was there. Her friend has a single daughter…I think she was 35ish, and I seem to recall she was highly educated and a solid earning professional. Anyways, my Mom and her friend are both talking about how both their daughters (my sister) are mid 30s single women. I resisted the temptation to launch into a lecture/diatribe, but they were insistent on showing me a picture of the friend’s daughter to get my opinion on her attractiveness as a guy of similar age. Actually, she was a pretty woman but not stunning by any means. At some point in the conversation, it comes up that the daughter of my Mom’s friend repeats the mantra “I am not going to settle” in response to her single status. On one level, I suppose it is good that she isn’t going to settle for some guy she is going to divorce 3-7 years later, but I suspect her position is pretty common where she is successful and somewhat attractive but probably has insanely unrealistic expecations of the caliber of guy she can actually land.

The second negative aspect of choosiness is the “pump and dump” phenomenon, or women making “mistakes” or getting “burned”. The simple truth is any man who tilts somewhat unrestricted is going to be open to having sex with a woman a few points lower that he would never consider as girlfriend or wife material. So when this happens, it is usually because a woman is being more choosy than her SMV really allows for.

So I really have no issues whatsoever with female “choosiness” as long as their is full ownership of both the positive and negative aspects of that choosiness and not trying to shift the negative aspects of that choosiness on to men such as 35 year old women trying to shame a 35 year old man for dating the 25 year old. In that case, the 35-year old woman was “too choosy” when she was 25 and at a higher SMV and now has to live with the consequences of that.

Now, I’ve always had a qualm with the idea that women don’t care about male looks. I don’t think that statement is true.

Well…I think what happens here is people tend to conflate/mix up it mattering less than female looks with not mattering at all. There was a study that looked at this that showed male looks matter, especially for shorter-term relationships. My personal theory is that the magnitude of importance a woman places on looks is highly correlated with her level of restrictedness. In other words, the more restricted a woman is the less emphasis she places on things like facial looks, body, height, etc. whereas the more unrestricted a woman is, the more you will see her emphasize looks.

Now that women have economic power, and the US is a relatively safe place, they no longer need to depend on men for financial security.

This is very true at the MICRO level. However, one thing I think most women fail to full appreciate is just how necessary men still are to provide certain societal/economic functions at the MACRO level. I’ve gone hunting for the column, but I cannot find it, but I believe Peggy Noonan wrote something about the importance of men right after 9/11. For the most part, you need men to be firefighters, police officers, soldiers, drill for oil in North and South Dakota. Men do most of the basic foundational infrastructure work that even allows for a society where women can be financially secure doing social work and other desk work. Without that male work, the whole thing would come crumbling down.

“In which country are the most aesthetically gifted men proactive in approaching women”

Wherever American women are, especially if alcohol is being poured.

In which country are the most aesthetically gifted men proactive in approaching women? That too, women who are not equally as gifted as they are?

Need to book ticket.

My best guess would be either in Mediterranean countries or Nordic countries. Hot pieces are often in those locales.

Happy Birthday, Ana!!

First off, just because a guy may be hunky and not too smart does not mean he’s an “asshat”. People are more than just their IQ levels. And women and men date men and women for a wider and more subtle variety of reasons than just intelligence alone or body alone.

Maybe he was the only guy showing her attention at the time? Maybe he had other qualities besides just his body that she liked. Maybe she also like his body (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!). Maybe she was incredibly lonely and he helped fill her heart with joy at a particular joyless time in life. Maybe she enjoyed his company.

Exactly this.

“My best guess would be either in Mediterranean countries or Nordic countries. Hot pieces are often in those locales.”

Nords are not my type but I get what you’re saying.

However, having been to both regions I can assure you that truly stellar looking men are a slim minority, but its true that the average man there is better looking than the average man here.

The man who has it all in terms of looks; awesome face, height and bod is a rarity in any given population. From my experience those men are not salivating dogs around women and are not “proactive” in approaching the general populace of women.

Susan, the point of that earlier post was not to say that EvPsych is all, it was to flip the script on the “insecure” re-frame, to show that the same logic works both ways, but in practice is only employed one way.

@INTJ
I am perfectly ok with men preferring inexperience girls and girls preferring a more sexually experience man. Whatever is best each other. I have no problem with my man having more sexually experience than I did, so long as he was a gentleman to them and a fling or one or two one night stands are understandable.

To me, it is more about the injustice of it all. I was a teenage virgin when I met this sleazy mid 20-something guy. I hate the thought of him finding happiness with a young girl that gets wife because she remained a virgin until her wedding night.

That future virgin wife deserves a sweet, loving beta guy that had treated women well in the past instead of a douchbag that seduced young virgins who he rejected because they failed to past his test. It is the male equivalent of marrying a slut or in your case, marrying a hot girl with a low number but her exes were alphas. Also, would you say that he is an alpha because he only targets girls between 16 – 21?

In the previous thread, I was talking about a friend of my. I am going to demote him from friend to a jerk that was the roommate of my beta boyfriend. Anyways, he was telling a hilarious story about one of his friend that lives in another region of the state.

That friend has a girlfriend that lives in another state, so he is cheating on her with a bunch of girls.

He enjoys bareback sex and never bothers to “pull out.” He gotten a few of them pregnant and took them to the clinic to terminate the pregnancies because he already had a girlfriend and he wasn’t ready to be a dad.

He told jerk roommate that he wants to marry a virgin, since he thinks that many of them are slutty and wants to break up with his girlfriend soon, but is too scared.

Although I did took pleasure in seeing how heartbroken jerk roommate was over the hot girl that was dating his alpha male roommate that plays football of the university.  It was his fault that he was emotionally investing in a hot girl that was dating his roommate at the time.

The hot girl in question was a sweet, cool, and social girl. I actually really did like her and thought her football player boyfriend was a moron for breaking up with her. I also thought it was funny when jerk roommate was complaining about all these hot girls and they rejected him but was seduced by his roommate.

On the other hand, how would you rate Karen Owen’s appearances? From her PowerPoint presentation, she was able to get a series of jocks to sleep with her a few nights instead of one night stands. Some of the jock was average looking at best, though.

If you want a literary example, Gatsby goes off the rails the instant he realizes that Daisy really was–at least in the past–more viscerally into Tom that she was ever into Gatsby, in large part because of Tom’s brute physicality and athletecism. She’s willing to leave Tom because he is a cheating ass but Gatsby wants an assurance that he (Gatsby) is and always has been her numero uno but she will not say so. She won’t even lie in the moment to get what she (ostensibly) wants. Gatsby won’t accept that and, well, you know the rest.

(BTW, this is why casting Bruce Dern as Tom was such an effing disaster. Tom is described as “hulking” and a superstar athlete, all “rude animal health” as Wolfe would say. Bruce Dern, well, he was something else.)

Just looked up who Christy Turlington is, and wow. She is incredibly gorgeous!

Escoffier, if a past girl my husband was involved looked anything like her, I would be so incredibly insecure, heh. It’s not just men that are concerned with pasts.

Does your wife know?

Hope, no, my wife never saw her. She is aware that I dated a left-wing lit-critter for a while and that’s all.

BTW, just to be clear, she was not the ACTUAL Christy Turlington, rather she was a literary intellectual/studying to be a prof who looked like a cross between Grace Kelly and Christy Turlington. Her face was perhaps a bit more Turlington but her hair and carriage were Kelly.

Sassy, it’s safe to take it for granted that we were not talking about trivialities such as “guitar hero.”

@susan
“I’ve recently linked to research – maybe even in this thread – that shows that both men and women prefer partners of low to moderate sexual history.”

But, whether that research shows it or not, if forced to choose, men would much prefer a woman with less history than theirs over a woman with more history, especially if the deviation either way is substantial. Whereas most women would prefer the opposite (even if they aren’t aware of it or won’t acknowledge it).

@intj

“Actually from what I’ve observed, if anything it’s the short women who’re most likely to want 6′+ guys.”

I think, more accurately, the shorter the woman, the more of a height deviation from her own that she craves. A 5’10” woman might think a 6’1″ or 6’2″ guy is right in her sweetspot. A 5’0″ woman is unlikely to feel the same about a 5’3″ or 5’4″ guy. Oh, and on average, women crave a greater height differential than men do. One of the manospherian sites posted stats about this recently. I’d go find it an link it, but I’d probably get banned.

We got a Latin American Pope! I’m pleasantly surprised. Long live to Francisco I

“In another recent post up-thread, I listed the “non-negotiable” traits that I look for in men. Those are the traits that a man must have in order for me to consider dating him. I think that many other superfluous traits exist, however, and it would be a fool’s errand on a man’s part to try to be the best in every way. Should it really matter to a guy whether or not I think that he is the best Guitar Hero player of all of my exes? Crossword puzzle solver? Model airplane builder?”

@Sassy

Sometimes, the very traits that made one person attractive, will turn you off later in another mate.

One shouldn’t expect to be the best at everything their ex did.
I agree with you there.

Escoffier, so a blond Christy Turlington with more of a playboy body than model thin? And intelligent, to boot. Yeah, I’d be super insecure. I also have a particular insecurity about blond girls.

So have you ever described her looks to your wife? Or just to us here at HUS?

On this discussion over dating a woman with an Alpha past:

I know guys feel strongly that they don’t want a girl after she’s “had her fun with Alpha,” but the reality is that a lot of girls have a terrible experience with Alpha, never try it again, and are all too happy to partner with someone more LTR worthy in the future.

I’ve had girlfriends with Alphas in their past. It was pretty easy to tell if they thought I was the best they ever had, or just a poor substitute. If the girl is totally besotted with me, why should I care about that guy? I’m conceited enough to think I’m probably better than him anyway!

@Escoffier, Mike C and al.

I have a great attitude and I make my own luck, so thanks for the wishes but no, thanks.

This blog isn’t a therapy session where I hold your hand while you guys talk yourselves into a mental breakdown about some other dudes a woman previously dated, and this has nothing to do with men bashing. If some men want to take themselves out of the race just because they don’t feel up to the challenge of meeting someone and building a future instead of dwelling on the past, women just have to date the portion, as small as it, of men more apt and mentally stronger. That is in itself encouraging that hyper gamy you guys complain about. We can’t do all the work for you guys, seriously. As a woman, I can’t be trying to adjust to a changing environment and try and manage its effect on your ego as well; if the only effort a man can make in this situation is to avoid me then so be it. Survival of the fittest and all that stuff.
If a woman stands in front of you and tells/shows you you’re the best for her and you don’t believe it, that is your problem, no hers. You can whether or not you want to be with her, not what she finds attractive. It would be la A cup getting in leagues against C cups, or blondes against brunettes, or non-domestic women undermining those who know how to care for a home; it all amount to pointless jealousy and laziness, fueled by fear of competition.
All I can say is don’t let those fear cripple you, there are so much more drama in life, why add more?

1. Defined however the current BF defines it. For instance, I never saw the Frenchman. Not even a picture. So I don’t know what he looked like. But he had a raft of status cues that I didn’t have, enough (or so I calculated) to override whatever it was that I did have. Plus, it was fairly clear that she didn’t leave him because she realized he was not desirable or because I was better. So, based on the information I had at the time I concluded (reasonably) that his SMV was higher than mine. I could have made the same calculation had the status cues been fewer but I had a chance to see him and gauge his physical appearance and judged it higher. In other words, we make the best estimate that we can with the information at hand. And as you well know, SMV encompasses a lot of traits.

2) This feeds into what I am saying, and also into the “price discrimination” meme. First, there are many of us who really don’t want girls who are into any kind of STRs at all. That alone is a red flag. Second, when it happens, a major reason why she chooses STR over LTR is because the particular guy is up for the former but not the latter. She’d take the latter if he were offering, but he isn’t, and she’d rather have him on SOME terms that bypass him completely. We would, of course, not be offered those same terms.

3) Addressed above. And, as noted, irrelevant. The point is, if a guy knows he is “lesser” that her past BF(s), it’s a recipe for instability. Call this what you will, insecurity or whatever, it’s a fact much of the time. I think your personal example is not apt in this case because your husband neither knows, suspects, nor believes anything different. There honestly is no one in your past who “outranks” him and you have conveyed that in a convincing way. It’s a problem when the guy DOES know, suspect, or believe something different. You can call that belief unwarranted, and you might be right in a lot of cases. But even in those cases, it’s an obstacle to be overcome.

Plus are not good at knowing their place; this is why you always have the ugliest guy in the bar trying desperately with the hottest chick, and getting labeled creepy. Women look at how men feel about one another and pick the one that looks relaxed and at ease. The other intimidated downgrade themselves because they *think* less of themselves. It is insecurity and it is NOT an insult. We all have them and we work on them. It must be one of those cultural differences again at work.

mr. wavevector “They conclude that economic, political, and sexual restrictions on women are necessary to maintain universal assortative marriage, where everyone pairs up with someone at approximately the same rank.”

I’ve read similar things. There was one quote that went something like, “Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.” Those restrictions don’t square with the idea of a “free” society very well, which may be why there is so much tension surrounding this topic.

“Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.”

Sexual Marxism:
From each according her ability. To each according his need.

“MRAs are the same as feminists, maybe second wavers. There are no male equivalents to radfems, though. Spend a few minutes on radfemhub and try to find a make equivalent anywhere.”

Second wavers were largely Radfems.

Sex Possies are not Radfems.

“This isn’t an endorsement for hypergamy. It is the RESULT of hypergamy.”

This is a good point, but ultimately it still translates to “The hypergamy game sucks and shame on you for playing it, but if you don’t play the hypergamy game I’m going to hold it against you.” With a subtext of “How dare you choose to have sex with men other than me!!”

@Tomato

Actually, hypergamy is a good thing.
Its what lets us avoid these situations.

The only problem with hypergamy is when a woman wants better to the point she can’t get it and then has to settle.

Have cake, eat cake is generally a frowned upon plan.

I don’t think that’s what Mireille was saying at all. She observed that a man’s needing to view and judge a roster of past bf’s is insecure. I don’t see how you can argue that point. A man who was secure in his partner’s affection and sexual attraction would have no need to compare, right?

That’s not my impression at all. My impression from the girl-folk is that insecure is being used to bash men as unmanly.
Actually, what I am getting is the impression that girls want to shame men into not discussing “It,” and shaming men into trying not to feeling anything over “It.” “It” matters and “It” isn’t just about N, as we have been saying for quite some time on the men-folk side.

You said it was that guy’s fault that he is marrying a woman who isn’t into him, except for his money, right? How are we supposed to know that as men if we do not investigate a woman’s past? Telepathy?

Saying that some girls have an experience with an Alpha, get burned, and never want to do it again, doesn’t say anything. I do not know that just by looking at a woman, which is why investigation and conversation is in order.

The impression that I, and I am guessing a lot of men-folk are getting, is that we are not allowed to ask, or feel insecure about it, or take time to process and re-assess, because then we are insecure and unmanly men. As a sociopath might put it “I’m with you now, why does my past matter?” and no discussion on the topic is allowed.

Apparently with your husband you did not take the “be mysterious” strategy at all, you discussed it in a frank manner and explained your feelings in a way that reaffirmed your husband’s feelings for you. This is, in fact, quite possible. Just because the guy asks the question does not mean you are doomed to failure.

I mean, christ, the whole reason I STARTED posting on this website is BECAUSE OF THIS VERY TOPIC. It’s not like I have NO idea what I am talking about here!

Based on the number of people that have flings and cheat with exes, especially with the convenience of Facebook, I don’t call it insecurity. I call it prudence.

Here’s a novel concept. If you can’t even trust your partner not to cheat on you with an ex, DON’T DATE THEM. Trust is the foundation of all good relationships. If you can’t even establish that, the relationship is doomed, in my opinion.

Actually, I agree that it is prudent. It’s too easy for affairs to start in this day and age, and I trust former flames much less than my partner.

Ex-purging on Facebook before heading into marriage is very prudent, IMO.

@SW

“Ex-purging on Facebook before heading into marriage is very prudent, IMO.”

You’ll get farther if you do it after the relationship.
My 2 cents.

Also, me and my wife have made a combined Facebook account. (Not necessarily difficult as we only have about 75 friends-family among us with quite a bit of overlap.)

Susan, a man who is obsessed with “the shadow of the past” even when there is no reason to be is, in all likelihood, genuinely insecure in the insulting sense of the term. In his case, the insult is descriptive.

However, when the attempt is made to extend the label “insecure” to any and all concern about N (quantity or quality), then the insult is just an insult. As such, it sheds head but not light, sews mistrust, and obscures rather than clarifies the topic at hand.

Hope,

I was never out to marry the prettiest girl I could find, nor even the smartest. I was out to get the *best* girl I could find, both best-simply and best-for-me.

And I did, so it worked out.

“You said it was that guy’s fault that he is marrying a woman who isn’t into him, except for his money, right? How are we supposed to know that as men if we do not investigate a woman’s past? Telepathy?”

Um…her present behaviors and actions? Do those get taken into account at all? Or does the past always override the present? Because I know a lot of men and women who did incredibly stupid things when they were young, they learned from it, and they moved on. Are they condemned for life?

@susan

“Of course, and that goes both ways. That’s why being the rebound is never a good idea. In the case you mentioned, why did the husband not perceive that his wife was never satisfied? How does one miss that?”

Well, I don’t think he was a direct rebound. This guy was from years before (I think). But, also, recognize the contradiction here. On the one hand, guys aren’t supposed to evidence any “insecurity” (shaming language alert) by worrying about such things, since he should be confident enough to know that if she’s with him, it’s all cool. Yet, on the other hand, somehow if he didn’t sniff this out before they were married, he royally fucked up. So, are we supposed to be suspicious about such things? Or not?

P.S. She told my wife much more than she wanted to hear, on a regular basis. So, I have no idea if he even knows to this day that the guy she took up with was a boyfriend from the past that she started seeing again before they split. He may well believe this is a guy she met later. I’m not close enough to him to ask/reveal that, and haven’t seen him for a while.

Emo singer songwriter
DJ

These guys are usually ridiculed beyond belief.

And, IME, most non-frat guys hold (serious) frat guys in contempt (i.e. the idea that you need to “buy” your friends).

By “serious”, I mean those frat-boys that feel that their fraternity is “important” to them.

@Hope,

I’ve read similar things. There was one quote that went something like, “Polygamy is capitalism, and monogamy is communism.” Those restrictions don’t square with the idea of a “free” society very well, which may be why there is so much tension surrounding this topic.

If capitalism is polygamy, then religion was the trade union, helping the working man get his share. Past tense – both religion and trade unions aren’t what they used to be.

Freedom doesn’t guarantee happiness or stability, unfortunately.

“women do NOT get to define for men what makes them feel “secure” in a relationship.”

A major sore point for nearly all Western women. Egos block admission of such, but none, not one, will deny it.

John. G. , you’re big fat gay face makes no sense!! So, shut up!

@Susan. 684

I’ve done all those things as well. Many times over, all with women whom I’ve dated.

Why did some women choose me and only me whereas others had to try something first?

my main issue on this thing is the same underlying principle I see from a lot of male commenters, not just here, but on other blogs. The idea that “As men, we can do what we like regarding sex and dating, but women should do what we want them to do, and although we can judge them for their actions, they don’t get to judge us for ours.” You can’t expect an ideal woman if you haven’t acted ideally yourself. This goes both ways, of course, but in the blogosphere at least I see more of it from men than from women. No one says you have to date someone you consider beneath your level, but don’t get upset if someone you do want to date considers you beneath their level. No one says you can’t try to go above your level, but don’t get upset if that person doesn’t give you what you wanted on the grounds that you are below their level. If you choose to date a person who is a certain way, you don’t get to take an attitude towards them for being that way when you chose them knowingly. nor do they get to take an attitude towards you on such grounds. Basically, what I’m saying here is don’t think you have the right to excuse yourself for actions that you don’t allow in others.

@Aimee

Welcome to HUS, I’ve never seen you before.

“should mean that she likes you better than the other men around”

I think I said this earlier but by nature some people will always be parasitic and there is no way to tell who is who based on a quick look.
Finding in congruencies is the only way to catch a liar.

“:/ It’s possible I don’t understand this mindset because I don’t hang out with people who jump from relationship to relationship, or date for the sake of sex, but I still don’t think that a man has more right to flip out over his gf’s exes”

I came from a similar friend group.
I abhor the idea of having to date a woman who has ever changed types but I’ve never had too. The angst is entirely hypothetical.

Aimee, I’m not one who is adament about this like Esco or lokland, but the analogy doesn’t hold. Women are hypergamous, men are polygynous. Your boyfriend will not be wishing he was with some hot ex – you can actually take comfort in the fact that he had to pursue you (likely), but also that men who have mates that are fit, pleasant and into them, rarely sit around wishing for someone hotter. What they secretly may wish for (but understand is unreasonable) is more. In other words, the guy with a hard 9 for a wife still would like (at a base level) to bang the 7 at work. Doesn’t mean he will do it if offered, but that’s his base instinct.

Further, it is far less likely that a guy will have been used and spit out by a higher smv woman (other than as a LJBF friendzone type) than it would be for a woman to have been used and spit out by a higher SMV guy. Women rarely like to have sex or get involved with lower smv guys (that hypergamy thing again).

I guess maybe the guy you should avoid is the chump beta orbiter who spent years being taken advantage of (not sexually, in other ways) by some really hot woman who had no interest in him, and who is now with you but doesn’t jump to your wishes the way he did with her. I think I’d resent that if I was a woman. I guess it’s the best analogy I can come up with.

Jason’s so good looking that I get a boner just reading his posts, and I’m not even gay.

Hahahahahahaha!!!

@Passer_By, I called her an ex because I really didn’t know what else to call her…they didn’t actually date, but for at least a couple of years she would be in and out of relationships all the time, and whenever she wasn’t in one she would just go and be all lovey with this one, sort of like he was her pet or something, her go-to when she didn’t have anyone else (she tended to ditch him when she had a bf.) She was quite free about telling the rest of us that she had no interest in him and that she knew he liked her. He put up with it because he was into her, till he met his now gf.

If guys don’t have impulses urging them to trade up, why do wealthy men ditch their wives in middle age and go off with hot young things? You see it all the time with celebrities or with men who are just plain rich and/or powerful. I’m sure that if more men had the kind of resources to be able to do this, they would. The gap is shrinking, but men still cheat more often than women do, in marriage at least. It may be shamed in society, but it still happens more often than the other way around. Women initiate the majority of divorces, but are still statistically less likely to cheat on a current husband than a husband on his current wife. (How many of those wife-initiated divorces are occasioned by wife deciding to be with another man, I don’t know.) The likelihood of cheating rises as one’s N rises, so it does seem that, since men often tend to have higher N than the women they marry, this goes back to what I said earlier about people’s riding the carousel being a bad way to prepare for LTR or marriage. Men having lots of sex with the hottest women they can find isn’t any better than women having lots of sex with the hottest men they can find, and a man who does this before getting involved in a LTR has no leg to stand on if he complains that the woman did this before getting into that LTR. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say. If people want to ride the carousel, they should expect that the people who will want them afterwards will also have been carousel riders. If people want a restricted spouse with low N who will be faithful, odds will be much better if they act restricted and keep their own N low, regardless of sex.

“A man may have dated a stellar looking girl in the past who did not meet other criteria that you as her current partner do. That criteria can more than make up for your lack of a 24-inch waist, perfect DD-cup breasts that defy gravity even past childbirth, zero stretch marks, or head of long *naturally* blonde hair or huge, flawless alabaster skin, or whatever else made his ex stand out physically.”

Feel warm and fuzzy now?

Maybe I’m an anomaly, but I don’t feel even the slightest iota of jealousy/insecurity at that scenario.

Whenever I’ve thought of some of my previous boyfriend’s exes, I feel indifferent. I can’t even muster up a shit/fuck to give.

Maybe I lack the ability to feel jealousy. I don’t know.

If I came back in 10 years, and all of a sudden read comments from Sassy saying she was attracted to betas and different traits from her list, and that looks really didn’t matter to her much, my bullshit meter would be going off at 110 decibels. I could only assume that I am hearing pragmatism speaking instead of sincerity.

Question: If I started to talk about how much I like Alpha/Cads and that I wanted a hot guy even from one night what would you think?

@ Susan

Were you the one who first brought this up? If so, may I ask how you have ferreted out this information and used it successfully in the past? You have shared that price discrimination was a huge issue for you and your gf a while back, so it sounds like you had good reasons to feel insecure. Did you set out to discover out how alpha vs. beta her previous sexual partners were?

Actually, I was not the first one to bring it up…the GF was. Bwahahahahaha! The first talks about prior partners happened not long after we DTR’d and decided to go for it.
At first, I really had no reason to be concerned. I mean, I had a fling with the girl over the summer that I didn’t think was going to go anywhere, so clearly she had elements of unrestricted-ness in her. No big deal. A few ONSs maybe a fling or two, whatever.
She actually wanted to know MY past because she didn’t know how to read me.
On the one hand, her best friend (my neighbor) told her that I had never had a girlfriend before, so she thought I was just using her and my friends were pressuring me into a relationship.
On the other hand, as she put it, I was very smooth, and that made her uncomfortable. Made her think I might be a player.

So telling her that there was a few fling things in college and I hated them was good. She was instantly relieved and said the same thing. Again, not surprising. When our fling was going on a little longer than expected in the summer, she wanted to put a maximum of 10 more meet-ups on it, because she was afraid of getting emotionally attached and didn’t really like flings. She also once started crying and asked me, essentially, to stop acting like her boyfriend.

Then one day, she said she really, really liked me. She had previous boyfriends before, but never any that she took to so quickly as me. I was already #3 on her list, is what she said.
I joked, well, 3 out of 3 isn’t good.
And she said, hahaha, yeah, way more than 3.

Uhhhh…how many exactly?

I don’t think she even has a clear memory of how many guys she has dated “seriously.” Not had sex with, mind you, just dated and put the Boyfriend label on it.

So, yes, I started discussing things more. Not in an insecure way at first, or judgemental, just interested. Almost all of her boyfriends were of the disgusting unattractive beta variety, as she described it. They seemed like nice guys but they weren’t very attractive.

As she described it, she would often act bitchy towards them, and dwell on things she didn’t like, and that would grow to consume the whole relationship. She would push for more emotional closeness at the same time if she was feeling neglected, etc.

None of this has ever been in our relationship. We had a discussion about this last night: she’s not sure if her expectations are too low or what, but I almost always exceed them.

There were sexual hang-ups in the beginning, that is true, and that resulted in price discrimination. There were extentuating circumstances behind that, of course.
1. I was a virgin and if I really didn’t have a lot of experience. I wasn’t really good at setting the mood or anything like that. I have gotten much better, but there’s only so much you can blame the girl for not wanting to hump you every second if you’re not doing a great job at escalation and foreplay.
2. My SMV was still pretty damn low most days
3. She had a lot of hangups from her religious background. Once she was gone from college and back temporarily living with her parents, that ol’ Catholic Guilt was really starting to rear in her head.

Obviously she had some attraction to me from the get-go. My biggest issue was that I felt that I had to restrain myself a lot to let her issues work themselves out and now I hear she was thinking about a threesome in a fling not long before meeting me? Yeah, bullshit. And then she tried to justify the price discrimination, and I basically wanted nothing to do with it.

I decided to stop restraining myself, and, to be honest, we’re both having a hell of a lot more fun now anyways. I also realize that both me and her were over-blowing this “3-some” thing. She is very easily persuaded into things, doesn’t do them right away, but thinks they are good ideas. Then after some thought, she often gets horrified and wants to run away.

Basically the same thing happened with her and her “3-some” that never happened.

Plus, she has a medical issue, which sometimes has the side effect of boosting her sex drive very high. This happened to be one of those times. Still didn’t do it, though.

She might be lying, of course, but she is not a very good liar. And doesn’t like lying. She feels, forcefully, the need to tell the truth. For instance, she tells her religious mother that we are having sex. Not a good idea, but god bless her heart, she feels like shit when she is lying.

Basically, her actual sexual background is “crappy and inexperienced” which is why she, uhhh, didn’t like the idea so much at first. She’s wayyyyyyyyy more on-board now.

She also does nice things like send me an Advent Calendar of nude shots

I can also tell that, by now, she instinctively follows me lead on many things, and really looks up to me. She consults me on most of her decisions, she likes to make her life objectives similar to mine, she likes to share my interests, she also is very giving and cooks for me, cleans for me, etc.

It’s also the first time in her life that she has really reshaped her life plans for a guy.

I also have known her best friend even longer than SHE has, and she is very clear that most of the time, she comes down on my side. Well she and her brother tell me that. Don’t tell the GF that

She also seen my girlfriend with basically all of her boyfriends, and, as she puts it, my GF has never been happier, not in her entire life, not even close. Never has she been so appreciative of a guy, never has she been supportive, so willing to change and compromise, just so damn happy.

So, yes, many extenuating factors, and many ways that her present behavior reassured me.

But…I still did ask. And probe. A lot. Aggressively, even.

I don’t think that makes me a bad guy, though.

Merely wanting the details on past relationships is a red flag for suspicion, insecurity, instability

Maybe the most common way for people of the opposite sex to learn about the other is by talking about their past relationships. Our past relationships say so much about ourselves.

Blazing Hot Victoria’s Secret Model Who is Begging for My Cock: So Ramble, tell me about the first girlfriend you ever had.
Ramble: Ugh, I’d rather not.

BHVSMWIBFMC: Pleeeeeeease!!!!
Ramble: Ah, OK. Still, I do not look good in this story.

BHVSMWIBFMC: [her eyes light up in anticipation]
…

And girls not wanting to communicate honestly about their past relationships is definitely a red flag.

a man can wonder and ask, that is perfectly reasonable in the exchange of info regarding romantic history; where I disagree is when that information leads to pathologically crippling thoughts that can sabotage a potential relationship.

Mirielle, I am not seeing the debate. If some guy becomes pathologically crippled by, well, anything from your past, then it is an obvious mismatch.

@Mirileile

“I will never be your exes and don’t want to because YOU BROKE UP WITH THEM! ”

Your intentional twisting of arguments is amusing.
In the situations we are discussing, the girl who makes a mistake with the alpha is the one being dumped.

Not the other way around as in your scenario.

The equivalent would be to have a man get dumped by his super hot girlfriend and then move onto you.

ADBG

I think you should demand that she prove you are her all time #1 by her arranging a threesome with you two and another girl.

She is well aware of the male need for sexual variety and I dare say I have been subconsciously “tested” on this on some occasions, but….this one I am not going to put into the cards.

@Lokland

For some men, a woman besotted to them is an impossibility.

Which is of course rather devastating.

And most men are aware of where that line is and where they are in relation to it.

I disagree with you!

I disagree with your disagreement. Just think of how many examples there are on TV of the stupid (but monkee-ishly lovable) husband/father. Hell, I would say that it is now a modern archetype.