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Male Quality Control

Women are the gatekeepers of sex for a simple reason. The “cost” of a sexual encounter is much higher for women than for men. There is the risk of being impregnated, possibly even by a bad or unworthy man. Women are far more likely to contract STDs than men are. And of course women are more likely to invest emotionally in a sexual encounter, even a casual one. (Note: It’s true that pregnancy can now be prevented or terminated, but our brains haven’t changed in thousands of years.)

The most important thing a woman can do in mating is manage these risks.  She does this by filtering men based on cues that signal an intent to stick around after sex. By delaying sex long enough to assess a man’s intent, character, and reproductive quality she eliminates poor prospects and considers only men with the potential to be good fathers. 

One reader suggested recently that the ideal mating strategy is the one with the highest reward, “if you can pull it off.” What he neglected to consider is that the highest reward often entails the highest “cost” or risk. A good strategy is one that thoroughly considers both costs and benefits, and has the highest “net” payout of all options. 

Here’s an illustration of how this works:

Slide1

Obviously, the best outcome is the top right quadrant, WIN THE LOTTERY. You believed him to be a good man who cared for you and you were right. Well done.

The next highest payout is the top left quadrant, DODGED A BULLET. You didn’t get a good guy out of it, but you did avoid having sex with a bad guy, and thereby prevented the destruction of your future. You have suffered no damage, and you can return to the pool of potential mates unscathed and try again. 

The third best outcome is the bottom right quadrant, THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY. You missed out on a good guy because you judged him unfairly. This is an opportunity cost – you forfeited “what might have been.” But as in DODGED A BULLET, you may return to the dating pool and try again. It’s probable you’ll never know you missed out, but even if you do, there are many guys on the guy tree.

The worst outcome, which is unfortunately very common among young women, is the bottom left quadrant, QUEL DESASTRE. Either he gave an Oscar-worthy performance or you were in denial about his true intent. He made it through your filter, you had sex with him, and it blew up in your face. You will pay a price for this error in judgment. You may be pregnant, you may have contracted a disease, or most likely, you may get hurt and feel used. Every time you experience this you chip away at your own worth, and your hopes for the future. You may return to the dating pool, but you are not unscathed.

It is imperative that you stay out of the bottom left quadrant. 

 

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    The key is to have good discernment, then, because assessing the situation correctly has the top two outcomes. Bad judgment comes with the second worst and worst possible outcomes.

    And because people may lie to obfuscate the assessment, the default position should be skepticism and careful filtering.

    Incidentally, the very same thing applies to business/money deals. Don’t be scammed!

  • HanSolo

    Good post.

    One of the biggest aspects of true female empowerment is for women to realize that they are ultimately responsible for the men they decide to date, have sex with and marry, especially in the rich and safe environments of modern society where they won’t starve or be killed if they don’t have any male in their life.

    Cads will not respond much to shaming so that’s a futile strategy.

    Getting the large portion of women who don’t want to be with cads to be more vigilant is likely a more effective strategy. (The women who do want to be with cads or players like the JR Smith girl are a whole different story.)

    In relationships or hookups with jerks and assholes, whenever women solely focus on how the man is a jerk (or all men) then it shifts the focus from their own accountability and agency and shifts them somewhat over into the category of powerless victims. But that is a futile strategy too. The women chose to sleep with them or marry them. No one held a gun to their heads to do it. Instead of just focusing on the ills of the internet Jacobs or the JR Smith ballers (and some negative attention to them is or may be warranted), more attention needs to be focused on the women choosing them and not sending them much sympathy (a little is alright) but rather asking the question:

    “Girl, there are other men to choose from so why, of all people, did you choose him?”

    If it takes longer to filter before putting out then that’s what women should do.

    And I’m not talking about what men should do (we have lots of room to improve too). Just that women need to accept that empowerment means taking responsibility for discerning who they sleep with and when. Anything less and they are just acting like powerless victims.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    This is precisely why, from the male perspective, Game is so important: we need to obfuscated the situation, concealing who are the cads and who are the dads, in order to filter out unworthy women for the dads among us.

    If Becky wants a guy like Alex, a stand-up dude with high intelligence and good genes who will be a good dad, then she should certainly filter out anyone who doesn’t fit that criteria. By that same token, Alex needs to know if Becky is good future mother material . . . by seeing if she’ll sleep with any of his cad friends. If Becky decides a “bad boy” fling (or several) will tide her over until her prince charming shows up, the real Prince Charmings among us are going to avoid Becky like a plague rat. Oh, they might screw her — even future dads are horndogs — but her chances of becoming Mrs. Alex and having Alex’s high-quality babies is gone, barring a broken condom.

    If women can tell the cads from the dads right off the bat, then there’s no filtering process for men. We need to know who the Sexually Liberated, Uninhibited Tarts are by their behavior . . . and keep our sperm away from their ova.

    Because if Becky’s number is higher than her age, then Alex is going to want to be in the lower right hand quadrant . . . even if he has to do something caddish to make it happen. Good dads aren’t going to hand over their C-card to low-quality stock.

    Good post.

  • Jonny

    Women are not managing their risks. They seem to just overlook them for short-term gratification. Lessons are not learned.

    There was a time when I thought a 25 year old woman was old. Now, a 35 year old women is old and there are more of them than ever that never married and are currently in the dating pool. The time for stop making mistakes is long past. It is time to be proactive in making the right decisions.

    They filtered poorly, but I’m more inclined to think it is intentional.

  • lovelost

    wow SWOT analysis B-school 101.

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    My my. What a two-dimensional world you paint for us. I recommend a third dimension to your grid – “Relationship Growth Potential”. There will be eight possible outcomes – try your analysis again and see what it reveals.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacob Ian Stalk

      Your charm is nothing short of magnetic. Are you available for birthday parties and bar mitzvahs?

  • Josie88

    There lies the problem…men are really choosing when it comes to making a commitment, and most girls are unaware of that or some girls are.

    This is also why prostitutes exists in the past and countries like India, Mexico, and Thailand. Being a virgin was the only way to get a husband, yet the men visits brothels because they were expected to have their sexual needs fulfilled. No self-respecting girl would have sex with a man other then her husband.

    I was watching this documentary about prostitution in foreign countries, and many of the men that visits the brothels admits that these women are saving many women from rape. They themselves refuse to marry sexually experience women, because they can get a virgin.

  • Sai

    I’m 100% fine with this because I have a habit of examining everyone through the blue quadrant by default (even in a platonic situation), then deciding very slowly who gets further consideration and a chance to be green-quadrant…

    What’s a C-card though?

  • Josie88

    I do agree that women are the gatekeeper of sex, and I acknowledge that I was responsible for my own past. I did it because he lead me to believe that we were to elope, and we were dating for 3 months. He was very respectful, had a nice job, and did give me the commitment that I demanded until I disqualified myself.

    At the same time, had men looks at themselves and see if they are worthy of a restricted girl? I know that this blog has little to do with my 72 year old Uncle, but I also think he was a good example.

    In order to get his c-card, she must be a 20-something women and that was why my 55 year old friend was too old to give his c-card too. (She wasn’t entirely hurt by this, and had already move on).

    It also annoys me when men talks about a woman’s looks and judging her unworthy of commitment as she ages. Men always talks about how as they grow older, they got more options whereas women just grows old.

  • Josie88

    What is a c-card? It means commitment. Seriously, I look at my Uncle or men who tries to date 20-something or even teenagers because women near their age is too old. You are too old!!

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Josie88 wrote:

    It also annoys me when men talks about a woman’s looks and judging her unworthy of commitment as she ages. Men always talks about how as they grow older, they got more options whereas women just grows old.

    I find your attempt at proof by anecdote a little suspect. The actions of one delusional elderly man, your horn-dog uncle, do not not prove the rule.

    I don’t even think they are useful as an anecdote. By your own admission, a 55-year old women was interested in him. That’s not half plus seven by any means, but it’s still a substantial age gap. When men talk about increasing options as they age, they are principally looking at it from a statistical perspective. Literally, they can pick from a wider field just because of how the histogram of women as a function of age is shaped. If men want to date a women their age, they can. A man who wants to buy a woman’s youth generally has to pay for it by one means or another.

  • Russ in Texas

    I know a handful of gals in relationships with (and children by) much older men, and they’re all happy. I STRONGLY suspect that this would be Terra OhMyGod-ica (is too a word) for the majority of women.

    Totally agree with Susan. Discernment for both sexes is ABSOLUTELY key. If you can’t get your A-game and win the lottery, you can at least avoid having your years of your life ruined by a terrible relationship.

  • SayWhaat

    This is precisely why, from the male perspective, Game is so important: we need to obfuscated the situation, concealing who are the cads and who are the dads, in order to filter out unworthy women for the dads among us.

    Truly a noble cause. You should start a charity for this. Make sure to file for your 501(c)(3) status! :)

  • INTJ

    @ Jacob Ian Stalk

    My my. What a two-dimensional world you paint for us. I recommend a third dimension to your grid – “Relationship Growth Potential”. There will be eight possible outcomes – try your analysis again and see what it reveals.

    I recommend a fourth dimension – “Inconsequentiality”. Too bad you’d be unable to think in four dimensions though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      I recommend a fourth dimension – “Inconsequentiality”. Too bad you’d be unable to think in four dimensions though.

      Sorry, I don’t understand. What does this mean?

  • Josie88

    I certainly have no problem with women dating and marrying much older men and finding happiness. To each and their own. So long as they were older then 18 or 21 when the courtship begins, whatever dude.

    However, I do have a problem with adult men sniffing around around high schools or colleges for young girls after they sow their oats.

    I do agree with Susan. Women should be more choosing. A man has every right to want a chaste woman as a wife and mother of his child. The problems lie when that man was neither chaste nor a person of character. Then again, this is a world of welfare moms, prostitutes and rich men in corporate offices with trophy wives.

  • Sassy6519

    I’ve dodged so many bullets, they should have cast me in The Matrix.

  • JP

    “The third best outcome is the bottom right quadrant, THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY. You missed out on a good guy because you judged him unfairly. This is an opportunity cost – you forfeited “what might have been.” But as in DODGED A BULLET, you may return to the dating pool and try again. It’s probable you’ll never know you missed out, but even if you do, there are many guys on the guy tree.”

    Unless you set a pressure mine and don’t realize that you did it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine

  • OffTheCuff

    LOL Sassy. But, you put yourself in the line of fire just a tad.

    Delusional ancient uncle aside, good ol’ alpha Danny easily gets away with hitting the colleges – they’re legal after 17 in most US states. You may not like it, but if the women consent, it’s on them as much as him.

  • SayWhaat

    I’ve dodged so many bullets, they should have cast me in The Matrix.

    LMAO!

  • Lokland

    Is Josie PJ?

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Sorry, I don’t understand. What does this mean?

    Oh I see. This question. I apologize for making a personal attack, against your stated recent policy. I’ve just gotten tired of seeing Jacob Ian Stalk’s nonsensical posts and wanted to respond in kind to him.

  • mr. wavevector

    It seems that women’s “accuracy of assessment” has gone to hell over the last few decades. Many of them seem to be stuck in the second row of the matrix – choosing “quel desastre” while “the one that got away” writes endless disgruntled comments on blogs like this one!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Many of them seem to be stuck in the second row of the matrix – choosing “quel desastre” while “the one that got away” writes endless disgruntled comments on blogs like this one!

      True that!

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    Eighty percent of women are in the bottom two categories. Pareto’s Law. Another example of Pareto’s Law is 80% of the women who think 80% of the men aren’t good-looking enough. That’s why more women are in the bottom right category than any other.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Eighty percent of women are in the bottom two categories.

      Support for that claim please?

  • SayWhaat

    Wavevector and Bob, I’d like to see the stats that support your arguments.

  • Josie88

    Am I PJ? No…but I do think that there nothing shameful about rejecting an older or old man.

    Honestly, I understand why older or old men being attracted to teenage and young women because of the evo-pshy thing.

    What I am trying to said that older and old men shouldn’t feel entitled to a young women or teenager. They shouldn’t shamed them either for being gross out by their age.

    This is why I agree with Susan, in that young girls should be taught to be aware of men thinks that they would be more cautions about dating men.

  • Kiwi

    Women are the gatekeepers of sex for a simple reason. The “cost” of a sexual encounter is much higher for women than for men. There is the risk of being impregnated, possibly even by a bad or unworthy man. Women are far more likely to contract STDs than men are. And of course women are more likely to invest emotionally in a sexual encounter, even a casual one.

    ^^^VERY IMPORTANT POINTS! ^^^

    ” It’s true that pregnancy can now be prevented or terminated, but our brains haven’t changed in thousands of years.”

    Pregnancy termination is not a simple thing. It can be both physically and emotionally traumatizing for women and many women would not consider terminating a pregnancy for these reasons as well as religious, ethical or other reasons.

    And pregnancy cannot be prevented 100% from condoms or birth control pills. Even hysterectomies have been botched and an expected conception takes place.

    SEX IS A HUGE RISK FOR A WOMAN!

  • Kiwi

    “I do think that there nothing shameful about rejecting an older or old man.”

    Who’s suggesting its shameful to do that? Nobody here I hope. On the contrary it is shameful to get with a man old enough to be your grandfather. Even father’s age is pushing it beyond civilized limits. Eww. Gross.

    10 years up or down is ok. 15 years max. More than that its just …. shudders.

  • Kiwi

    ” Then again, this is a world of welfare moms, prostitutes and rich men in corporate offices with trophy wives.”

    And rich men in corporate offices “slumming it” with welfare moms and prostitutes. Hell, some of those welfare moms are those rich mens’ baby mamas!

    How hard is it to pick one assortive mate and stick with her life long? Stretch marks and all.

  • Josie88

    Thanks Kiwi.

    Look, I am sorry for so many posts. I am just responding to some shaming that was inflicted upon me and my sister when we were teenagers by my 30-something sister.

    She had a good time with men in their late 20s – 30s when she as a teenager, so she told so us to do the same. She also told us that we will grow old with wrinkle too, so stop judging.

    So I want to said that I am sorry and hopes for the best for everyone. Now I am off to spring break. Have a nice week.

  • Kiwi

    “This is precisely why, from the male perspective, Game is so important: we need to obfuscated the situation, concealing who are the cads and who are the dads, in order to filter out unworthy women for the dads among us.”

    One way for women to figure out who is dad and who is cad is to become the gatekeeper of not only sex, but of emotional investment as well.

    Let him take the first serious emotional steps such as introducing you to his parents and other demonstratable signs of seriousness. Parental introduction in itself may mean nothing, but if its one of, say, 5 different emotional commitment behaviours, then you can begin, just begin, to consider “ok, maybe this guy is serious about me after all”.

    Don’t give way to wild displays of emotional attachment just yet. Continue to observe him with one cautious eye and one hopeful, loving eye.

  • Kiwi

    “She had a good time with men in their late 20s – 30s when she as a teenager, so she told so us to do the same. She also told us that we will grow old with wrinkle too, so stop judging.”

    I’m not an ageist proper, but every stage of life has its appropriate and corresponding behaviors. Uncles and aunties are meant to behave as such. It is within their age appropriate roles they will get the respect they deserve as elders from us young folk.

  • HanSolo

    @Josie88

    What part of the world do you live in, if you don’t mind me asking?

    The older man, younger woman thing doesn’t seem such a common dynamic in North America.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    How about the 40% of children that are now born outside marriage? That’s “quel desastre” material – especially for the children themselves.

  • Kiwi

    “She had a good time with men in their late 20s – 30s when she as a teenager, so she told so us to do the same. She also told us that we will grow old with wrinkle too, so stop judging.”

    Stop judging? Whatever for? ;)

    Seriously though, we will grow old with wrinkles too and we will do so in tandem and step with our mates of similar age. That way it won’t be so hard on us.

  • Esau

    +several for HanSolo at #2 above, very well stated and important.

    In relationships or hookups with jerks and assholes, whenever women solely focus on how the man is a jerk (or all men) then it shifts the focus from their own accountability and agency and shifts them somewhat over into the category of powerless victims.

    The technical (== unnecessarily fancy) term here, I believe, is hypoagency, and you can turn up some interesting stuff by searching on the word. For example, girlwriteswhat has a thoughtful video essay on female hypoagency, starting with the counterintuitive involvement of feminism but ultimately going back to an evo-psych explanation — which I don’t personally agree with but was interesting to hear — and touching on such topics as women who regularly videogame online along the way. Anyway, you seem like the type to appreciate that there may be deeper explanations for this kind of behavior, rather than simply disrespecting it.

    wavevector at 24: It seems that women’s “accuracy of assessment” has gone to hell over the last few decades.

    Is it fair to say, that this is the main reason HUS even exists, on this scale?

  • HanSolo

    @Esau

    I’ll look it up.

    Yes, feminism ironically creates some areas of female hypoagency by excessively blaming the patriarchy (not that some criticism wasn’t/isn’t warranted) for all of the ills that women face.

  • Abbot

    Where is the female quality control post?

  • Aimee

    Abbot, you do realize that this is a website for advice to women, right?

  • Kiwi

    “Abbot, you do realize that this is a website for advice to women, right?”

    That’s why he’s here.

  • Aimee

    This is a really good post. I think that a lot of women tend to be unaware of this kind of thing, some of them willfully. I know several women who’ve been unchoosy and have ended up badly or less-than-desirably, and I also know several who’ve been very careful and have ended up well. I myself have never dated before my current boyfriend, and we aren’t being sexual (we kiss and get a bit handsy, but the clothes stay on.) I told him upfront that I was intending to wait sex till marriage, and he didn’t complain. I think that if more women would stay out of men’s beds until they had reason for confidence that this was serious, a lot of bad choices would be avoided, because sex muddies things with all the hormones and feelings.
    Side note: with the talk about older men above, I’d like to put my two cents in and say that I will generally not consider a man more than two or three years older than I as a viable option (I am 25), both because I feel that a man with N>2 has been with too many women for my taste (and the older someone is, the higher their N tends to be), and because from what I’ve seen, the older a man gets and stays single, the more bitter he gets and the more likely he is to have issues with women that he might take out on me. My boyfriend is 3 1/2 years younger than I am.

  • Kiwi

    “Side note: with the talk about older men above, I’d like to put my two cents in and say that I will generally not consider a man more than two or three years older than I as a viable option (I am 25), both because I feel that a man with N>2 has been with too many women for my taste (and the older someone is, the higher their N tends to be), and because from what I’ve seen, the older a man gets and stays single, the more bitter he gets and the more likely he is to have issues with women that he might take out on me. ”

    Bingo!

    Also autism in children has been linked to older fathers.

    Its best for humans to get all their breeding done by 36.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Mr. Nervous Toes,
    To be fair, I’ve seen what Josie was talking about on March 14, 2013 at 6:45 pm on websites like Roissy’s, but would like to think that the guys on that site don’t represent a large number of men.

  • Mike C

    There lies the problem…men are really choosing when it comes to making a commitment, and most girls are unaware of that or some girls are.

    Josie, right. But the problem is some women don’t want to be aware. See the last thread. Some of us guys tried to discuss something that could play a part in a guy making a commitment, and we got beat over the head with it.

  • oy vey

    Reading these comments, I know why women can’t find decent men. Start at half plus 7 for dating and run it out to 20 years older.

    38, and I ATTRACT (ie: they ping off me) 22-27 daily. Over 27 or single mom, “very nice to meet you”. Those girls can’t bond with a man. Don’t blame me, Im just exposing the dark soul of 2013 American society.

  • Kiwi

    “Reading these comments, I know why women can’t find decent men. Start at half plus 7 for dating and run it out to 20 years older. ”

    The older some get the less decent some become. Could because of bitterness as Aimee mentioned above. Could be because of outdated ideas. Who knows? What we do know is that if a woman wants to have healthy children then she needs to mate with a man under 40 because older fathers are linked to autism in children.

  • oy vey

    that study only applied to older fathers with the mother over 35.

    Sorry.

  • Kiwi

    “To be fair, I’ve seen what Josie was talking about on March 14, 2013 at 6:45 pm on websites like Roissy’s”

    So many myths to bust, so little time.

    The carousel does not exist;

    http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.ca/2013/03/manosphere-myths-cock-carousel.html

  • Kiwi

    No kid wants an old dad. Its not cool.

    PSA:
    End bullying by having kids young so the other kids don’t have to pick on him/her.

  • Josie88

    Lets just said that my parents and older sisters grew up in a country where it was normal for a young girl of 16 to be consider a woman and is now ready for marriage. One gets married young because one dies young. A man that lives to an old age is consider wise.

    My parents and older sisters certainly thinks that a 16 year old “woman” should marry an older man that can provide for her and is already financially accomplished, instead of a younger man with an unstable future.

    My parents may had chosen to immigrate to the United States, but they still held on to their conservative, traditional values. My older sister was raised in that foreign country. she came with them when she was a teenager and got marry fairly young.

    Certainly that 40-something man that was hitting on my then 16 year old sister also shared the same mindset. To them, it is perfectly normal. However, my sister and I grew up in the USA and had been “corrupted” by western ideologies. So our disgust at dating 30 – 40 something is more of a westernized, modern concept.

    If my parents and older sisters knew that my younger sister and I are no longer virgins, they should be heartbroken. Both of us are already consider old maids because I am in my twenties and the other is 20.

  • INTJ

    @ Abbot

    Where is the female quality control post?

    Cause males already know how to do quality control. And yes, quality control potentially includes filtering out women with alphas in their past.

  • INTJ

    @ Aimee

    Side note: with the talk about older men above, I’d like to put my two cents in and say that I will generally not consider a man more than two or three years older than I as a viable option (I am 25), both because I feel that a man with N>2 has been with too many women for my taste (and the older someone is, the higher their N tends to be), and because from what I’ve seen, the older a man gets and stays single, the more bitter he gets and the more likely he is to have issues with women that he might take out on me. My boyfriend is 3 1/2 years younger than I am.

    Wow! :)

  • oy vey

    ^^ lol , so cute! ^^

    I don’t make the rules, I just exploit them for my maximum benefit. FYI, shaming only works on the dregs and other girls, but it was a spectacular attempt. I especially like how you gently shifted your personal opinion on todays reality about how young women view and date older men into a thinly veiled cautionary tale on bullying.

    lemme guess. 30+, single, and are mad as hell but devote untold hours convincing yourself and others how happy you are. Right? If only men were not so darned intractable huh? The failure of women to life split thread is >>>>>>that way.

  • Kiwi

    ” And yes, quality control potentially includes filtering out women with alphas in their past.”

    A funny and pertinent comment from that site;

    JohnnyMarch 12, 2013 at 6:02 AM

    What I always love about these replies is that they are NEVER about their own experiences, and always about someone they have heard of, or a friend of a friend, or the mythical “alpha male”.

    How many guys can tolerate an 18 year old girl for long enough to have sex with her? I certainly can’t. Then this point “one man can dominate the sex lives of 5 women” – dude seriously, have you ever even had sex, forget “dominating the sex lives of 5 women”? I find the amount of effort it takes to “dominate” the sex life of one girl tiring, forget dominating 5 women! At two chicks, it seriously starts to affect all other areas of my life.

    Next time, please go out, think for yourself and reflect on your own experiences. It will do you a world of good!
    _______________________________

    So how many women have you personally filtered out with “alphas in their pasts”, INTJ?

  • Major Clanger

    @Kiwi / PJ
    Peejcon alert…ease off a little sweetie

    I know that you miss my elder(ly) guidance on a day to day basis, but I’ll always be there for you in spirit. Casting my paternalistic, caring eye over you from afar (in years and km) regretting our love that can never be.

    Peace baby, take it easy ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Shut up, PJ.

  • Major Clanger

    @Ana
    Did you like the Wang movie?

  • Major Clanger

    Moff nighty night.

    Play nicely PJ, it’ll save making up yet another identity… <3

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Did you like the Wang movie?
    Couldn’t get it in Netflix :(

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    So how many women have you personally filtered out with “alphas in their pasts”, INTJ?

    Heh, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    An ironic waste of time: Priding oneself on filtering out women (either real or imagined) who’ve probably already filtered you out…

  • Major Clanger

    @Ana
    Insomnia is on going.

    Shame, it’s a good film if you watch it without any preconceptions ie spoilers.

    Arrive derci (hope that’s right, io non doa da Italiano)
    Or
    Cheers me dears

  • HanSolo

    If in doubt, don’t put out!

  • Kiwi

    “If in doubt, don’t put out!”

    Feeling antsy? Keep it in your pantsy.

  • Jesse

    And if you’re going to be really careful with your sex, try to be really nice, genuine and friendly when you explain to your prospective significant other that you’re just trying to be careful and only have sex with guys who are serious about the relationship.

    If he’s worth anything he should back off completely and show total understanding, and hopefully show plenty of non-sexual affection to show that he respects and appreciates your desire to vet carefully.

    In other words, try to patch the leaks between the boxes “Win The Lottery” and “The One That Got Away.”

  • Josie88

    Actually I am in my twenties and despite respecting my uncle, I live in pleasure when he fails to get one of my 20-something friends.

    Ha….the best thing my then teenage sister did was to reject that 40 year old man. The shock on his face was priceless and a joy to the world when she pick her boyfriend over him.

    I wouldn’t be surprise if you some creepy old guy that is hitting on young girls.

  • Jesse

    I wouldn’t be surprise if you some creepy old guy that is hitting on young girls.

    Don’t be insulting. I’m a creepy young guy hitting on young girls.

  • HanSolo

    If she’s a creep, with her don’t sleep.

  • Josie88

    I may be consider an old maid in my twenties by men in my culture, but I am certainly happy that my boyfriend and I are in the same age bracket.

    No way will I date some 40 year man that my sister tries to shame me into dating.

    It feels so good to reject them for being too old. It feels even better when my parents, sisters, and other relatives expressed anger for dating a young guy of a different race. The greatest joy in life while one is yong is rejecting an old man for being old!!!!

  • Kiwi

    “If she’s a creep, with her don’t sleep.”

    Anyone following the Jodi Arias trial on HLN? I’m surprised the Manosphere isn’t all over this one. And they are using the “creep” word – in reference to HER. Dr. Drew said many times, “this is what will creep out guys” and “for men the creepy thing about her is….”

  • Josie88

    What? Am I the person that people are referring to as a creeper?

    Just answering a question. Honestly, my younger sister and I are more open minded when it comes to dating. Each to their own. If an old man wants to be with a young woman, go for it but don’t demand that she submit to your “charms” and no old man is entitled to a young woman.

    My parents, sisters, and men from my culture disapprove of both of us for dating young guys of different race. Will, we rather pick a young beta guy of a different race than an old man of the same culture.

    Oh, and even if we are consider old maids we are still being hit on by 40-something men of our culture because they still want a young bride. This is why our sister continues to shame us for rejecting them.

  • Mireille

    @HanSolo,

    I’m loving all those catch phrases (Pj’s too)! They should make posters with those and display them in nurseries in high schools or something.

    I’ve always applied the “When in doubt, don’t put out”, maybe too well!

  • Mireille

    WRT catch phrases, they look like they’d come out of a Dr Seuss tale or Alice In Wonderland!

  • Kiwi

    “My parents, sisters, and men from my culture disapprove of both of us for dating young guys of different race. Will, we rather pick a young beta guy of a different race than an old man of the same culture.”

    Me too. I’m a culturephile anyway and love traveling to new places, meeting new people, and learning new things, and of course eating new food. Dating men from different backgrounds is a great way to learn about our world’s various cultures, (and eat a lot, LOL).

  • HanSolo

    When in heat (Sassy), bid a hasty retreat! :D

  • FeralEmployee

    So… when do we start testing discriminators to classify the quality of new cases? I suggest Support Vector Machines to circumvent the curse of dimensionality and possible non linear relationships between the variables (which will need to be found as well, preferably eliminating the redundant ones to limit computational complexity using Principal Component Analysis).

    It’ll allow probability scores as well to deal with borderline cases.

  • Tomato

    “Women are the gatekeepers of sex for a simple reason. The “cost” of a sexual encounter is much higher for women than for men. There is the risk of being impregnated, possibly even by a bad or unworthy man. Women are far more likely to contract STDs than men are. And of course women are more likely to invest emotionally in a sexual encounter, even a casual one. (Note: It’s true that pregnancy can now be prevented or terminated, but our brains haven’t changed in thousands of years.)”

    Also, women are more likely to not orgasm or even be injured from bad sex compared to men.
    Worse, women are more likely to be raped by their date.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Though I realize you meant your ideogram to display the LTR vs. STR choices it could just as easily be applied to any male trait.

  • Angelguy

    I would like to speak of this bitterness and age gap thing for a moment.
    As a single man, I’m in my early forties, live on my own and never been married. Part of it had to do with economics and personal circumstances, but I don’t want to focus on that, or make excuses.

    Bitterness is a choice one makes after life experiences. You are either happy and accepting or regretful. Many Men in my age group tend to lose connections with their friendships with other men. Unlike women, the social circle tends to become smaller. Men generally communicate less than women do. When this happens, one or two things occur.
    They either seek out Women to fill this void, or they withdraw.
    This becomes more difficult as one gets older because people generally have certain prejudices to age groups. Like a woman said in an early post, they are afraid that Older men have issues with Women and baggage that they don’t want to deal with.
    Well, that goes both ways.

    As I have aged, I have learned Happiness is a choice and state of mind.
    Often when I run into Men my age, I can see the hardship and stress in them from raising children and being married. Their hair often is greyer, and they are working more.

    I made a promise to myself that no matter how I age, I will always keep my intention on being happy, regardless if I am in a relationship or not.
    In my mind, I am eternally young, feel like 20, and can rock harder than some of the youngsters now. Some 20 year olds act like cranky old men if you can believe it.

    So yeah, I may not be for every age, but I am not bitter.
    I don’t regret anything, because I have lived, and still alive.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Good stuff by Hansolo.

    Angelguy, I know where you’re coming from. I keep meeting men my age that look 15 – 20 years older than me. Terrifying what a wife, 2 kids & a mortgage can do for your sex appeal.

    Plain Jane’s constant trolling creates an ugly climate of distrust & expectations of dishonesty. She’s been doing it for years & is never going to change. Do everything you can to ban her for good. Failing that, find her address & hunt her down with a cattle bolt gun.

  • Angelguy

    @Byron

    I am not saying that being married is a bad thing necessarily, but it does have an impact on ones self, if the marriage and family is not properly handled.
    I think aging is difficult for either sex btw. Men and Women go through many changes, not just physically, but psychologically too.
    Changing one’s mindset can be more difficult than the body, sometimes.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    AG,

    well yes, & as you say, men simply do not cultivate the network of friends & support that women do, especially after marriage. Which is why such a huge number of many men kill themselves after divorce – they have invested themselves so heavily in that life that they have literally nothing left once it is over.

  • SayWhaat

    Cause males already know how to do quality control.

    Uh-huh. Tell that to the guy I knew who got pissed when the girl he was fucking wouldn’t leave her boyfriend from him. The same girl who took anger management classes and had a tattoo on her punani.

    She was hot though. If that’s what you mean by “quality”, go right ahead.

  • Angelguy

    “well yes, & as you say, men simply do not cultivate the network of friends & support that women do, especially after marriage. Which is why such a huge number of many men kill themselves after divorce – they have invested themselves so heavily in that life that they have literally nothing left once it is over.”

    @Byron

    Exactly. It is very devestating when this happens. I think it is important to have friends. There is only so much one’s spouse can do for you.
    Unfortunately, most men don’t want to admit this.
    While Women have no trouble calling up theirs, and getting together.

    I have a few guy friends that I speak with, so I know.
    Their wives seem to like me, so it is all good.

  • INTJ

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/333885/girls-not-coming-age-betsy-woodruff?pg=2

    But Dunham’s stupid little YouTube ad for the president might have ruined it all for me. That’s because she sounds like she’s channeling her character, Invasion of the Body Snatchers–style. They share the same baffling, naïvely egomaniacal understanding of justice — they both seem to think that because they exist, the universe needs to make sure that all the sex they choose to have is consequence-free.

    You’d think the feminist elevation of agency would result in women who take pride in being responsible for their own bodies. You’d hope that telling women that they can do whatever they want would imply that they’re responsible for what they do. You’d think serious feminists would argue that true empowerment is something you lay claim to, not something the federal government dispenses in all its benevolence. But for Dunham, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    In fact, for all practical purposes, the patriarchy no longer decides whom American women can sleep with and when. That’s great. But if you don’t want men in Washington telling you how to use your sexuality, you shouldn’t expect them to subsidize it. But Dunham seems to actually believe they should. Dunham makes tons of money, and I’m quite confident she can afford to pay for her own birth control. But she doesn’t seem to take pride in that; it’s not what her characters aspire to, and given her foray into the delightful world of presidential-election ads, it doesn’t seem to be something she aspires to, either.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Just published some thoughts on the last episode of “Girls” here:

    http://triggeralert.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/adam.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I love your post on the recent episode of Girls. I hadn’t gotten quite that far in understanding Adam, but was definitely on the same wavelength. I find that I have more empathy for Adam – by far – than any other character on the show. Adam Driver is brilliant at conveying his isolation, aggression and vulnerability all at the same time.

      FTR, any notion of that scene being rape is 100% bogus.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Oh good, that’s really nice to hear, Susan.

  • Kiwi

    “But Dunham seems to actually believe they should. Dunham makes tons of money, and I’m quite confident she can afford to pay for her own birth control.”

    And for everyone else just make the guy buy condoms. Shit, there’s many places where he can even get them for free.

  • HanSolo

    @Byron

    Good post. The vulnerability of Adam wondering whether he is good enough to be accepted as his true self is something many men struggle with and often mask for their whole life because most women don’t want to see a man’s true vulnerability, they only want to see a small portion of it like a dab of colored paint on strong and steadfast steel. Most men bridle their dark urges, out of love or out of necessity, rarely if ever thanked, because that is what is expected and the expected can’t be truly appreciated.

  • J

    @Jacob Ian Stalk

    I’d be intersted in seeing that third dimension you’d want attached to Susan’s chart. If you are intersted in developing those ideas, I think you should share them with the rest of us.

    @Byron

    I liked the part of your analysis in which you notice that Adam still stays within Natalia’s stated rules while pushing the limits. I do understand however the “gray rape” comments you are seeing on the net. What happens on the show IS mostly consensual. Natalia could just have easily walked out when Adam told her to crawl to the bedroom. It was obvious then that things were going to get weird from there on. Adam’s ejacualtion on her chest after being told not to was not consensual, but it’s not rape either. It was, because of that particular context, degrading. That’s what people are reacting to.

    Han, I think you are right in saying that Adam was seeking validation for the darker side of his nature and of his sexuality. Natalia unintentionally triggered that need by criticizing his laughing at toilet humor and living in a dump. Hannah, in contrast, had a gross and earthy nature of her own and a desire to explore the dark side for the sake of her art. The same act with Hannah has a sense of mutuality that would not offend some of those commenters who found the scene rape-y. Hannah and Adam work have interlocking craziness. This is why they can’t forget each other despite the fact that neither is a 10.

    What writing! Now tell me haters that my girl Lena isn’t brilliant!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Adam’s ejacualtion on her chest after being told not to was not consensual, but it’s not rape either.

      I missed that – did she say no? I think I need to watch the episode again. I didn’t see Charlie flip on a webcam either.

  • J

    In contrat to Byron’s comment:

    Plain Jane’s constant trolling creates an ugly amusing climate of distrust giggles & expectations of dishonesty belly laughs. She’s been doing it for years & is never going to change. Do everything you can to ban her for good encourage more of her bullshit, especially those bigoted remarks about believers in the Abrahamic faiths. I’m feeling blue and enjoy a good laugh.

    Every blog needs a troll

  • J

    J: Adam’s ejacualtion on her chest after being told not to was not consensual, but it’s not rape either.

    SW:I missed that – did she say no?

    J: I believe so.

    SW: I think I need to watch the episode again. I didn’t see Charlie flip on a webcam either.

    J: I missed the webcam, but I heard Marnie object to being seen. I thought she meant by the people at the party.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      J: I missed the webcam, but I heard Marnie object to being seen. I thought she meant by the people at the party.

      Yes she did, but someone here said Charlie reached over and turned on a camera without her knowing!

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    ” Natalia unintentionally triggered that need by criticizing his laughing at toilet humor and living in a dump. Hannah, in contrast, had a gross and earthy nature of her own and a desire to explore the dark side for the sake of her art. The same act with Hannah has a sense of mutuality that would not offend some of those commenters who found the scene rape-y. Hannah and Adam work have interlocking craziness. This is why they can’t forget each other despite the fact that neither is a 10.”

    Absodiddly.

    “What writing!”

    Yep, I am truly astounded by her handling of male characters in particular. I never read depictions of men by female writers that think & talk like actual men. It’s almost unprecedented.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    J, re:PJ,

    Seriously, cattle bolt gun. It would be like inventing that time machine & going back to kill Hitler: a better world for everyone.

    “J: Adam’s ejacualtion on her chest after being told not to was not consensual, but it’s not rape either.

    SW:I missed that – did she say no?

    J: I believe so.”

    My recollection is she said ‘not on my dress’.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My recollection is she said ‘not on my dress’.

      Well, in that case he’s in the clear!

  • J

    Yeah, she has indeed created some really interesting, multi-dimensional male characters. She must be a very perceptive and compassionate young woman IRL.

    I also love Ray’s vulnerability and inability to find himself at 33 contrasted with Charlie’s finally getting moving professionally and socially.

  • J

    @Byron

    Seriously, cattle bolt gun. It would be like inventing that time machine & going back to kill Hitler: a better world for everyone.

    Meh. Trolls are like the hydra’s heads. Cut ‘em off, and they just grow back.

    My recollection is she said ‘not on my dress’.

    I thought I heard “not on my breasts.”

  • J

    someone here said Charlie reached over and turned on a camera without her knowing!

    Maybe. I need to rewatch it. That would be a remarkably shitty thing to do.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I thought I heard “not on my breasts.”

    No, its ‘not on my dress’, that’s why she pulls her dress down herself. I just went back & checked.

    ‘Not on my breasts!’ would be a pretty unusual thing to shriek out during sex, when you think about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron, @J

      I really didn’t like Natalia’s “rules” – or the way she laid them out for Adam to obey. I was surprised he said, “I like it that you’re clear with me.” It reminded me a bit of when he told Hannah (in the eyebrow episode) that he liked it when she talked to him so assertively. He clearly likes to dominate sexually, but wants some pushback too. Mostly I felt that Adam was so uncomfortable in that relationship – going off the wagon to show this “out of his league” girl a good time. She’s no good for him.

  • SayWhaat

    someone here said Charlie reached over and turned on a camera without her knowing!

    Maybe. I need to rewatch it. That would be a remarkably shitty thing to do.

    I recall he fiddled with the computer when he pulled her into the room, and it struck me as slightly odd. It didn’t occur to me that he turned on a webcam, though. I guess we’ll find out.

  • J

    ‘Not on my breasts!’ would be a pretty unusual thing to shriek out during sex, when you think about it.

    I thought she glad he wasn’t ejaculating in her, but didn’t want him to ejaculate ON her or her clothes–as in “Not on my breasts! Go get a towel.”

    I really have to re-watch it now.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Seriously, cattle bolt gun. It would be like inventing that time machine & going back to kill Hitler: a better world for everyone.
    THAT was amusing! :) PJ? NOPE EVER!

  • Jackie

    *chimes in*

    I was the person who made the observation about Charlie turning on the webcam before he & Marnie had sex on his desk. Maybe I was mistaken, but why else would he need to do something with his computer at that precise moment in time?

    Either way, that along with the Natalia/Adam scene struck me as pretty awful. Susan knows I am an Adam Driver aficianado from way back. But couldn’t he see that the degrading stuff he was asking of her (i.e. crawling on all fours through the filth of his apartment, getting woodchips, dirt and goodness knows what else embedded in her palms and knees)– it clearly made her uncomfortable. :(

    Afterwards, she kept saying, I really didn’t like that. It seemed that the whole encounter was, at some level, Adam trying to get her to pull the plug on their relationship. Look at the dialogue– in the middle of sex he keeps asking, Do you like me? Do you like my apartment? Etc. Then afterwards, when he asked, So are you done with me now? it could almost be argued he was saying it in relief.

    Adam has entered a world of engagement parties and guys who say, Too bad we’re missing the game for this, huh? The Hannah encounter, the alcohol, the horrid sex– these are all terrible dominoes he is trying to get to spill to knock the whole thing down.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Adam has entered a world of engagement parties and guys who say, Too bad we’re missing the game for this, huh?

      That scene was awful. The way that horrid bride referred to Natalia as having blown her cousin! So crass.

  • Mireille

    This is how Adam will discover his SMV, trying high and low and seeing where he fits. I think Adam and Hannah are the same person. Both are consumed and self-involved but in different ways. Adam thinks too much about how to deal with his emotions and doesn’t see other people’s emotions. Hannah thinks too much about her self and her art but does not consider how it affects other people. Add to that the lack of boundaries and opportunistic behavior…

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    It will be very interesting if Dunham intends Hannah & Adam getting back together – the feminists who’ve put forth the interpretation of Adam as a ‘rapist’ will really have their heads messed with if he becomes the happy love interest once again…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      Well, the coming attractions showed Adam taking a call from Hannah in the finale. Sadly, I think his having a gf rekindled her interest. She’s a shallow one.

      But not as shallow as Marnie.

  • Jackie

    @J
    “someone here said Charlie reached over and turned on a camera without her knowing!

    Maybe. I need to rewatch it. That would be a remarkably shitty thing to do.”
    ==
    Hi J, that was me. :)

    I think Charlie, like possibly some commenters, is *so* incredibly emotionally invested in Marnie that he believes that somehow revenge will purify her from his system. (Not true, but the revenge-fantasies that power the ‘Sphere could fuel a small planet, if they could only be channeled.)

    Look: His whole success is due to an app that he based off of her. If he is a score-keeping kind (and how could he not be, when his app charges him $10 every time he places a call to Marnie?) he probably feels that the score must be evened. First for season 1 (their OTHER awful sex scene), then for the perceived betrayal by the hipster Ewok, he self-loathing Booth Jonathan.

    In the moment, I’d bet he isn’t thinking, This is a horrible thing to do. He is thinking, Charlie 1, Marnie 0, FINALLY.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In the moment, I’d bet he isn’t thinking, This is a horrible thing to do. He is thinking, Charlie 1, Marnie 0, FINALLY.

      Definitely. I turned to my husband and said, “Whoa! Revenge f*cking.” I like how in the scenes at his office, Charlie is calling Marnie out on her BS, asking whether she is there to lend support or seek it, etc. He’s not over his oneitis – no way – but he’s finally figured out that it made him unattractive to her. He deserves better. But not that wench Audrey!

  • Jackie

    @Byron
    “the feminists who’ve put forth the interpretation of Adam as a ‘rapist’ will really have their heads messed with if he becomes the happy love interest once again…”
    ===
    Byron, I too am interested in seeing the direction things go. Clearly, what’s happening between Adam and Hannah isn’t over. From my POV, I don’t see this show having a “happy” love interest– ever!

    Even Shosh and Ray, for example. When they declare their love for each other in the subway, it is only after Ray acknowledges homelessness and self-perceived loserdom. They’ve been together 6-8 weeks at that point and this is his longest lasting relationship EVER.

    Or Jessa & Thomas-John: The smugness goeth before the fall. Just when Jessa thought she had it all figured out and was smugly smugging to Hannah about how real love is “supposed to be”… that was when everything hit the fan.

    This show has not, will not and will never have a happy love interest. (Although I would love to be proved wrong.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girls has a dilemma, because the guys are so well drawn and the actors who play them have become real favorites. Also, the viewership is actually more male than female, or at least it was in Season 1. That means Adam and Ray are really important to the series, but if they’re not dating anyone, why have them around? It’s a bit of a dilemma for LD, I think.

      Personally, I was glad to see the end of Elijah, but I read he’s coming back. The sex scene with Marnie just put me over the edge.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Oh absolutely Jackie, but it’s possible there’ll be a gentle lull in the storm for awhile. I’d like that.

    I think the Charlie/Marnie relationship is being used mainly to talk about the shifting of the balance of power in a relationship: so far Charlie has been used to show what Marnie took for granted & threw away – now he’s thriving & she’s floundering, even though in any other show she’d be the most stereotypically gorgeous ‘golden girl’ that everyone likes & goes out of their way to help.

    Charlie feels both obsessive desire & – post Booth Jonathan – utter revulsion for her: he can’t help but WANT her, but he doesn’t LIKE her anymore. She’s dead to him, but he still wants to fuck her. Not a good place to be in.

  • HanSolo

    I think Adam felt a bit humiliated when he tells her that it’s like a car that you can drive anywhere and she says he needs help to clean up his place. That possibly struck right to the heart of his male need to be respected. He then asks if it changes the way she feels and she says no and then he tells her to get on all fours. He perhaps feels the need to now humiliate her and bring her down (or into) his level and world.

    Though I haven’t demanded a woman get on all fours and crawl, there have been moments in life where I have opened up to a woman, and you’re literally putting some real, vulnerable part of your soul in her hands. In cases where she understood and respected me then it developed an incredible sense of loyalty and trust in me for her. In cases where she didn’t understand or seemed repulsed then it led to a complete emotional numbness and shutdown on my part and it didn’t matter if she was hot, I had no desire to bond with her. I still found such women physically attractive but couldn’t bond with them anymore because I felt rejected for who I was and that a deep connection was no longer an option.

    I like to see the portrayal of his emotions (and obviously my interpretation is just that and was colored by my lens and past experiences) and how it can be very crippling (or enraging) for a man to feel humiliated or disrespected.

    One criticism is simply that she seems so out of his league (she seems like an 8 or 9 and he’s maybe a 5 in SMV) that it happening in real life seems highly unlikely, though not impossible. But that doesn’t take away from the merit of portraying his feeling disrespected or not good enough and the need to humiliate and dominate her (my interpretation and not saying it is THE true interpretation).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think Adam felt a bit humiliated when he tells her that it’s like a car that you can drive anywhere and she says he needs help to clean up his place.

      Yes, that sculpture was a key part of who Adam is, and she just made a face – she didn’t act the least bit interested in what is important to him. His place is really gross, but so what – she has no right to pass judgment.

      I still found such women physically attractive but couldn’t bond with them anymore because I felt rejected for who I was and that a deep connection was no longer an option.

      I wonder if that’s why Adam reduced her to an object in the way that he did. Clearly the sex he “had” (by himself) had zero emotional component. She may have turned that off in him completely.

      One criticism is simply that she seems so out of his league (she seems like an 8 or 9 and he’s maybe a 5 in SMV) that it happening in real life seems highly unlikely, though not impossible

      Yes, I felt that her remark when she first saw him, “Oh, I LOVE my mother!” was not at all plausible. He’s grown on me, he’s cute when he laughs, and he’s got great hair. But her thinking he’s hot is a stretch.

      She seems very limited and disengaged in general – I figured it was because she grew up with an alcoholic mother.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    The way that horrid bride referred to Natalia as having blown her cousin!

    I’d kind of forgotten about that – there were a number of subtle moments that led up to the Adam/Natalie sex scene, that was one of them.

  • Jackie

    @J
    “I also love Ray’s vulnerability and inability to find himself at 33 contrasted with Charlie’s finally getting moving professionally and socially.”
    ===
    Sorry to talk your ear off with “Girls,” J, but I was thinking about this, too.

    Actually, I was thinking when Shosh brought up the Trump seminar to Ray and he was inwardly rolling his eyes at her. (I would be, too, but for different reasons. That seems like a super scam!) I can’t see him ever striving or trying or risking. Ray is, to my eyes, not nearly as resilient as Hannah or the rest. He is going to be manager at Grumpy’s *forever*.

    While he was able to give advice to Marnie about following her dream (and maybe this is just me, but I almost sensed something between them), it was advice you knew he’d never take for himself.

    (Also, I say this because they have been dropping some pretty heavy anvils about the unsuitability between him and Shosh.)

    Anyway, I’d actually be interested to know more about his background and how it relates to resiliency (or lack thereof). What do you think?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He is going to be manager at Grumpy’s *forever*.

      It wasn’t until the nude ping pong episode that I learned Ray is just the manager. I thought he was the owner of Grumpy’s. :(

      I love his character, he’s funny, and I think he’s got a big heart. But he has clearly got issues, and he is NOT the boy for Shoshanna. Actually, that’s the issue. He’s too boyish for 33. That’s why she wants him to go to a college party. She thinks he fits right in.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    In cases where she didn’t understand or seemed repulsed then it led to a complete emotional numbness and shutdown on my part and it didn’t matter if she was hot, I had no desire to bond with her. I still found such women physically attractive but couldn’t bond with them anymore because I felt rejected for who I was and that a deep connection was no longer an option.

    Yup, been there done that.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (118)

    Y’know, seeing the transformation of Charlie reminded me of something.

    I remember reading about a very successful, well-respected and hot guy whose personal history was that of a former nerd who got cheated upon by the first woman he ever loved. It has crushed his heart. Underneath all the shining success was someone with wounds just like anyone else– and maybe worse, since they had driven him to revenge-success.

    Remember Shosh’s comment to Charlie, how super-hot he was now? If you were meeting him for the first time now, would you have believed the pathetic dynamic between him & Marnie last year? I think that sometimes we want to air-brush our perceptions of people, as much as we do their appearance. But even the hottest person on Earth around is carrying baggage, which I find quite humanizing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But even the hottest person on Earth around is carrying baggage, which I find quite humanizing.

      It’s so true. The idea that good-looking men don’t get cheated on, or that pretty girls can easily find love – none of it is true. I’ve known beautiful women who were admired but never loved. I’ve known very handsome men who are painfully unsure of themselves – not their looks, but some other aspect they wish was different.

      It’s easy to think that life would be so much better if I could only get x, or achieve y. And yet research shows that those things make us happy only briefly. Then we return to a baseline of contentment, whether it be high or low, that we were at before.

      Charlie’s revenge won’t make him happy, but I can’t say I wish he was still the old Charlie. I like the way he is exorcising his demons, and he’s not doing anything Marnie doesn’t deserve and isn’t asking for.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    the viewership is actually more male than female

    I did not know that, that makes it even more unique.

    I think many girls don’t like it because it’s too real – it doesn’t allow them to hang on to the make-believe the way Sex & The City or Ally McBeal did.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I do think men appreciate the fairness and honesty in Girls, but there was also some speculation that it did well with men initially because it came on right after Game of Thrones. That’s not the case for Season 2, so I’d be interested to know the breakdown.

  • Jackie

    @Byron

    “Charlie feels both obsessive desire & – post Booth Jonathan – utter revulsion for her: he can’t help but WANT her, but he doesn’t LIKE her anymore. She’s dead to him, but he still wants to fuck her. Not a good place to be in.”
    ===
    Agreed! The interesting thing would be if he actually decides to take the better path and cut her out of his life for good. Someone *finally* learns a lesson and makes a positive choice! Otherwise, they will continue this kind of traumatic bonding, where they are kind of sealing themselves to one another in a hate-pact.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I wonder if that’s why Adam reduced her to an object in the way that he did. Clearly the sex he “had” (by himself) had zero emotional component. She may have turned that off in him completely.

    That’s probably it.

  • Mireille

    I loved Ray in Season 1; it seemed he was the only person realistic in that show. I think he figured that those kids will never “settle”, even if they have to suck their parents dry to achieve their dreams. I remember he told Hannah that instead of complaining about her parents cutting her off, she should work at McDonald’s to pay the bills. It’s fine because, in all groups of friends, there is always one that is “too” grounded.

  • Jackie

    “Yes, that sculpture was a key part of who Adam is, and she just made a face – she didn’t act the least bit interested in what is important to him. His place is really gross, but so what – she has no right to pass judgment.”
    ==
    Yes! He is pretty much letting her into his inner sanctum:

    When he shows her the sculpture, the mess, the carpentry he is saying, This is me, who I really am beyond the nice guy your mother find adorable. All the clues he has been dropping– not liking romantic comedies, beyond “wishing the best” for Sandra Bullock ( :) ) , his grossout (to her) humor– she has been missing right and left.

    And now he is finally showing her, This is me. *That* is why he asks her if she likes his apartment during sex.

    Also, maybe Adam has blinded me with his weirdness and strange compassion, but his face looks like a Modigliani portrait to me, I think! He is not handsome, but he is *compelling* at some undefinable level. When they were together in a frame, I thought they made a really nice-looking couple.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      That’s so funny you mention Modigliani. I defended that kid Nathan Harden using that description. There is a certain something that Adam Driver has – no question. Interesting that he was a Marine!

      That line about Sandra Bullock was hilarious. The writing really is brilliant.

      Oh, and the way Adam called Hannah “Kid.” I can’t help but wish for a reunion. I agree with you though – this is not a show for happy endings.

  • HanSolo

    Also, interesting how Marnie massively disrespected Charlie before (and Charlie was acting way too needy and was cringe-inducing). Not sure how the show will go but in real life he likely wouldn’t be able to overcome that ever. Maybe if Marnie massively changes and makes amends but even then that memory will always be with Charlie.

  • VeriSeeker

    Women seem to miss an obvious point: men are in the market for “good” women as much as women are in the market for a “good” man. This was conveniently “overlooked” in the article. I have said it dozens of times but it is, obviously, not sinking in: if you want a quality man then you need to be a quality woman. A quality woman worries about how she can please her man (as he does her), not about simply what she can extract from him.

    Most American-born women miss this simple (but very, very important) concept to thier own detriment. You women must remember that American men are desired on a planetary basis because we can offer women a very high standard of living (by global standards). You are competing for the affections of American men on a global scale against women from very poor backgrounds, who have enormous incentive to marry one of us.

    If you want to remain single and childless, follow the advice in this column. If you want a quality man who is “daddy and husband” material, become a quality woman who is “mommy and wife” material. It is truly that simple.

  • HanSolo

    @VeriSeeker

    Yes, women need to be good to attract good men for husbands but you’re missing the point. Part of being a good woman is being able to discern between the men that just want to have sex with her and those that are good and want to marry her.

    Being discerning and wise is a huge part of being a good woman. So, your attack on this article is misguided.

  • HanSolo

    But why are you ignoring the other posts on how a woman should be a good woman and emotionally bond with her man and treat him well. The 25 ways to get a boyfriend post is a prime example.

    Susan has often said that there are too many entitled and narcissistic women in the US so I just don’t get why you’re shouting at the choir.

    I personally think that too many women in the US are too masculine, too bitchy and too unpleasant. There are also a lot of good ones. In spite of my arguments with them at times, I think most of the female commenters on here are making anywhere from a reasonable to an outright great effort in treating men well.

    So, in most ways I agree with you. I just don’t agree that HUS isn’t telling women to be good women. I think it is.

  • HanSolo

    @VeriSeeker

    And I do know how latinas are, at least. I lived in Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Peru and Costa Rica and between there and the US have had several latina gf’s. I do like that many of them are educated and have careers yet are still romantic and feminine.

    So, basically I just think you’re off-base for coming here and attacking HUS for not trying to help women be good women. That just doesn’t agree with the plain and simple facts.

  • Josie88

    @Kiwi,

    thanks…there is nothing wrong with dating men your age. Have fun with your culture learning.

    I probably gave the wrong impression here or had been falsely accused of being PJ, when I am not.

    My sister and I are doing what Susan is telling us to do. Dating young beta guys within our age. My beta boyfriend is a biology major and spends his weekends at the lab or playing video games. He dislike parties. Her beta boyfriend is going to college and working part time.

    I mean, we are doing the best we can with what Susan is advising here. we are restrictive girls who dates betas. Do you guys humble yourself to at least admit that we are doing something right. Now i really have to go to Spring Break.

    I was wrong with nice guys…because we are dating nice guys. I am just talking about personal experience of being hitting on by creepy older guys who shamed us for being creep out by their age yet they refused to date women their own age.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    Personally, I was glad to see the end of Elijah, but I read he’s coming back. The sex scene with Marnie just put me over the edge.

    Perhaps I’m an outlier, but I actually liked the Elijah/Marnie sex scene. I thought it was hot — until they starting sniping at each other :lol: (“don’t you roll your eyes at me!” “I’m not!”)

    Then it became like watching a trainwreck, but a hilarious one! It was clear that it was two people hitting rock bottom and seeking validation by going through the motions. They clearly don’t like each other due to their possessive of Hannah, so the dynamic between them was interesting, to me at least! They called a brief truce, but reality came crashing down. Neither can escape their life and/or who they truly are at their core..

  • Angelguy

    “I was wrong with nice guys…because we are dating nice guys. I am just talking about personal experience of being hitting on by creepy older guys who shamed us for being creep out by their age yet they refused to date women their own age.”

    @Josie88

    I think you are going in the right direction.
    There are many women that don’t date guys in their age group when they are young.

    While I think creepy older men with a huge age difference should scale back their expectations. I understand the biological need to date women much younger, especially if you want to have children.

  • Veri-Hata

    I wonder why Susan blocks certain post and not others? Is she scared that her ideas will not stand up to the facts? I wonder

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Veri-Hata

      You are indeed a hata, and that is why I deleted your comment. Plus it was redundant.

      I’m always amazed when people take the time to be unpleasant on blogs. I have no interest in allowing you to piss in the punchbowl.

  • Joe

    At the risk of being accused of “white knighting,” that’s unwarranted, Veri. I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that filters are flaky. WordPress, for instance, will can your comment for too many or inappropriate links, according to it’s own definition of “too many” and “inappropriate,” not the admin’s.

    Susan admits to not being a techie, and I’m sure she had better things to do with her time than futzing with a comment filter. Yet, I know she’s already taken the time to do just that. The adjustments may not be to your liking (so far), but they serve the purpose.

    As for Susan’s deliberate blocking, it’s never come without good reason and without warning. Her tolerance for certain posters who shall remain nameless (but who’s initials are PJ) is legendary. Stick around for only a little while and I’m sure you’ll find out what’s out of bounds. You’ll find her limits reasonable – that is, you will if *you* are reasonable.

  • INTJ

    Shut up PJ.

  • INTJ

    Oh nevermind. Veri-Hata is just VeriSeeker, not PJ.

  • HanSolo

    Speaking of Girls, I find it interesting that three of the four are unrestricted (or quite so) and even Shoshonna cheated by making out with the hot doorman.

  • HanSolo

    Interesting to compare with SATC where all four of them are unrestricted. I wonder where the Girls will end up with when it’s all over.

    This link says how many the SATC women slept with over 6 seasons:

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_guys_has_Samantha_Jones_from_sex_and_the_city_slept_with

    Samantha 41 men +1 woman
    Charlotte 18 (so much for her “good girl” veneer LOL)
    Carrie 18
    Miranda 17 in the episodes, confesses 42 to Skippy

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      In season 1, Hannah says her N is 2 – Elijah and Adam. Since then, she had the fling with the pharmacist when she went home, with Patrick Wilson and the black guy. Anyone else? If not, her number is now 5 at age 25.

      Jessa is clearly a slut.

      Marnie is at 2 I believe – Charlie and Booth.

      Shoshanna is at 1.

      I don’t think you can claim unrestrictedness based on these numbers.

  • HanSolo

    Are you seriously saying that Hannah isn’t unrestricted?

    She has sex with four guys during season 2 (what’s that, like a few months in the show?) and I’m not sure what happens in epidose 10. There’s Sandy, then the ONS’s with Laird the Junky, Joshua and Jessica’s 19 y/o step-brother.

    So, I think it’s safe to say that Hannah is now clearly unrestricted with 4 in a time-span of likely a few months.

    Marnie also had ONS sex, if even just for a moment with Elijah while he had a bf. Or should I say E-bi-jah? So, although she wasn’t cheating she was facilitating his cheating. Also, Marnie kisses Jessa, so some bi-experimentation, even if wasn’t sex. I’m not expert on the show but do you know what Marnie did before Charlie? Was he her first?

    So, maybe Marnie isn’t as unrestricted as Hannah or Jessa but she’s displaying some unrestricted behavior.

    Shoshonna started out as a virgin but is displaying some unrestricted behavior throughout. In Season 1, ep. 4 she makes out with a guy but he won’t have sex with her because she’s a virgin so she probably would have had he been willing. She has a fling with Ray before they are “dating”. (I’m not shaming her, just pointing out unrestricted behavior.) Then, while dating Ray, she cheats on him with the hot doorman–how far they go we don’t know but, regardless, that’s unrestricted behavior.

    Summary:

    Jessa–unrestricted
    Hannah–unrestricted
    Marnie–some unrestricted behavior
    Shoshonna–some unrestricted behavior

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      So, I think it’s safe to say that Hannah is now clearly unrestricted with 4 in a time-span of likely a few months.

      That does not make her unrestricted, at least not according to the SOI. There is just one question that asks about behavior within the last 12 months. Also, people don’t move around much on the restrictedness scale – that’s the whole point of the SOI – it’s reliable over time, generally a lifetime, according to the researchers. So Hannah may be anywhere on the spectrum, excepting of course, either end.

      Marnie also had ONS sex, if even just for a moment with Elijah while he had a bf. Or should I say E-bi-jah? So, although she wasn’t cheating she was facilitating his cheating.

      Cheating has nothing to do with sociosexuality. And a single ONS wouldn’t really bump the score much either. In fact, because 47% of women have had ONSs, we recently figured here that a ONS would put someone smack in the middle of the bell curve. Just a guess.

      Also, Marnie kisses Jessa, so some bi-experimentation, even if wasn’t sex.

      The SOI does not address same sex attraction.

      ’m not expert on the show but do you know what Marnie did before Charlie? Was he her first?

      I got that impression, though I don’t know for sure. They met at Oberlin – she looked extremely young and was very prudish. In fact, she still is quite prudish! No doggy style! I think Marnie is quite restricted. In fact, in the coming attraction she is astounded to learn she is having casual sex with Charlie, lol.

      In Season 1, ep. 4 she makes out with a guy but he won’t have sex with her because she’s a virgin so she probably would have had he been willing

      Many women who would score very low on the SOI feel enormous pressure to dump their virginity. SayWhaat has shared that thinking here, and it’s quite common. I’m not saying the decision to do that is a restricted one, but Shoshanna is most definitely restricted. You don’t reach senior year of college a virgin with unrestricted sexuality.

      She has a fling with Ray before they are “dating”. (I’m not shaming her, just pointing out unrestricted behavior.

      That’s just her second attempt to dump the virginity. She might answer questions 4 and 6 in the positive, but I would expect most of her other responses to be negative. Virginity loss is not addressed in the SOI.

      Then, while dating Ray, she cheats on him with the hot doorman–how far they go we don’t know but, regardless, that’s unrestricted behavior.

      Again, cheating is irrelevant to sociosexuality. Since he is clearly on duty, they are kissing in the mailroom, and a resident may enter the lobby at any moment, I feel sure we were meant to understand that the making out (which is not unrestricted behavior) was as far as they went.

      WADR, HS, you’ve completely redefined this instrument. Here are the questions:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/10/23/whatguyswant/restricted-vs-unrestricted-sociosexuality-what-does-it-mean/

  • HanSolo

    Add in Hannah’s casual sex with the pharmacist from season 1, episode 6. I guess that gets us up to at least N=7, and 6 of those within the two seasons, with 5 of those 6 being casual.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HS

      You’re right, I forgot about Jessa’s stepbrother. It is seven. Still, N in an of itself does not necessarily predict SOI score. If it did we wouldn’t need the SOI.

  • Mireille

    I think Marnie has been dating Charlie since they were in college, so she might be in the restricted box.

  • SayWhaat

    She lost her virginity at 14, so Marnie’s number is at least 3.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She lost her virginity at 14, so Marnie’s number is at least 3.

      That’s right! We need a Girls Trivia night!

  • HanSolo

    @Mir

    She was in the restricted box in college and until breaking up with Charlie but is fairly unrestricted in season 2 with the casual sex with Elijah, making out with Jessa and casual sex with Charlie.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      casual sex with Charlie.

      Oy, now you’re calling sex with a recent ex unrestricted? Han, get a hold of yourself!

  • Veri-Hata

    Piss in the punchbowl? Is that the best you can do? You start off with an article about quality control for people (which is not possible) and end up blogging about a TV show? Maybe piss in the punchbowl is the best you can do…

  • Sassy6519

    I’ve really been enjoying watching Girls, and I’ve kept up with all of the episodes. Last week’s episode was fantastic, in my opinion. The character developments just continue to get more and more complex. I’m excited for this season’s finale.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I stand by that Shoshonna and Marnie engaged in some unrestricted behavior as you’ll see in comment 150. I was likely wrong in originally calling Marnie unrestricted, so far. We’ll see what happens as the show progresses but you can’t deny that having sex with Elijah is unrestricted behavior as it contributes to questions A2 (sex on only one occasion) and A3 (sex w/o interest in a LTR). It’s hard to say what her attitudes were at the moment but she knows he’s gay/bi and in a relationship so she can’t have been thinking she was going to steal the guy away from his bf, so likely some degree of unrestricted attitude in that case as well.

    As to Shoshonna, losing your V card without it being with intentions of forming a relationship or ever having sex again with the person is unrestricted behavior (A2 and A3).

    As to Hannah, it seems that her behavior was restricted in college and before, assuming she’s reallly only had sex with Elijah and Adam when she tells Shoshonna.

    However, once Girls gets going then her behavior and some of her attitudes are clearly unrestricted. I’m not sure why you are arguing that.

    I’m not sure how much time passes from the start of the show to the current point (S2, E9) but I read that only a few weeks elapses btw the two seasons so I think 1 year is about reasonable. If that is true then she has had sex with 6 or 7 guys in a one year period, depending on when the last time with Elijah was. That’s quite unrestricted. In my next comment, I’ll analyze each question in the SOI.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However, once Girls gets going then her behavior and some of her attitudes are clearly unrestricted. I’m not sure why you are arguing that.

      I’m not, I think you’re right that Hannah’s views of sex, i.e. having it “for the experience,” are clearly unrestricted. I had forgotten about a couple of those hookups.

      It is true that Shoshanna has had unrestricted encounters (though cheating nor making out qualify) but I still view her as quite restricted in her view. Same with Marnie.

      Of course, as OTC pointed out, these are fictional characters that Lena Dunham can write any way she likes, and the plausibility of their behavior is open to question. I doubt Lena Dunham is writing with an eye toward the SOI.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I don’t think you can claim unrestrictedness based on these numbers.”

    LOL!! We just had this discussion and the consensus is that my low N made me super-duper-mega unrestricted, and all of the sudden, it’s the other way around with fictional characters.

    Again: where’s the line between restricted and unrestricted? Then, pretend you’re the Girls character and answer all the questions, and see what *numerical* score you get.

    You can be quite unrestricted with a low N if you fantasize about other people a lot. And, you can be restricted with a high N if you fall in love with people at the one year mark.

    And it *can* change over time. I’ve moved from far far left to the middle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LOL!! We just had this discussion and the consensus is that my low N made me super-duper-mega unrestricted, and all of the sudden, it’s the other way around with fictional characters.

      What? This doesn’t make sense. Your low N made you unrestricted? No, your threesome makes you unrestricted. As I recall, we used the number 14% – to determine that would be well to the right of center on the spectrum.

      This is not inconsistent with the discussion about the Girls characters.

  • OffTheCuff

    This would be a fun exercise.. But I cant contribute since Im not up to date on the show. Start a wiki or forum post or google doc where we can collaboratively score each character, and come up with a final number.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    From your post, and with some info about Hannah and using this inventory link since the one in your post didn’t open for me http://www.larspenke.eu/pdfs/Penke_in_press_-_SOI-R_chapter.pdf:

    The SOI assesses three facets of sociosexuality:

    A. Past Behavior in terms of number casual and changing sex partners

    1. With how many different partners have you had sex within the past 12 months?

    2. With how many different partners have you had sexual intercourse on one and only one occasion?

    3. With how many different partners have you had sexual intercourse without having an interest in a long-term committed relationship with this person?

    1) Seems like it’s 6 or 7, depending on how much time has elapsed. That would give her a 6 or 7 out of 9 on the 1-9 scale.

    2) Four but likely to rise over time. That gives her a 5 score, for now but will definitely rise if she keeps on as she is. If she gets in the 7-9 sex-only-once partners then she will have a score of 7, and 10-20 will get her to an 8. Barring some miraculous change in behavior she is head for a 7 or 8.

    3) Four but likely to rise over time. This also gives her a current score of 5 but is likely to rise as time goes on, getting her up to the 7 or 8 level like above.

    Admittedly, maybe she’ll date Adam again and so her A2 and A3 answers won’t rise much more. At the present her average score for behavior is about 5.5/9, and will likely rise as time goes on unless she cuts out the ONS’s and no-interest-in-LTR sex.

    B. The explicit Attitude towards uncommitted sex

    4. Sex without love is OK.

    5. I can imagine myself being comfortable and enjoying “casual” sex with different partners.

    6. I do not want to have sex with a person until I am sure that we will have a long-term, serious relationship.

    4) Clearly she is at least OK enough with sex w/o love. Hard to say what score she would give but it’s gotta be somewhere in the neutral to unrestricted area, meaning about a 5 or higher.
    5) Hard to say but apparently she can imagine it well enough to attempt to write a book about her exploits. So, likely a 5 or higher
    6) Obviously, she has had consensual sex with four guys she had no intention of being in an LTR with so her disagreement is high and will give her a high score, likely a 7, 8, or 9.

    Hard to say, but if we assume 5, 5, and 8 then that gives her a 6. If we assume 6, 6 and 9 then that gives her a 7.

    C. Sexual Desire for people with whom no romantic relationship exists.

    7. How often do you have fantasies about having sex with someone you are not in a committed romantic relationship with?

    8. How often do you experience sexual arousal when you are in contact with someone you are not in a committed romantic relationship with?

    9. In everyday life, how often do you have spontaneous fantasies about having sex with someone you have just met?

    I don’t know enough about her inner arousal and fantasies so I won’t try to evaluate her here. In the next comment I’ll compare her to the studied sample.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    That does not make her unrestricted, at least not according to the SOI. There is just one question that asks about behavior within the last 12 months. Also, people don’t move around much on the restrictedness scale – that’s the whole point of the SOI – it’s reliable over time, generally a lifetime, according to the researchers. So Hannah may be anywhere on the spectrum, excepting of course, either end.

    Assuming the two seasons were under 12 months, which it appears they were, the answer to question 1 is 5-6. Based on HanSolo’s listings, we have four ONS that we know of (pharmacists, Laird, Joshua, & Jessica) so answer to question 2 is 4. It’s harder to answer question 3 without knowing which ones if any she wanted to be long term, but I’ll assume all 5 casual, so the answer is 5-6 (you can correct me if any of them were attempts at an LTR). This puts her at 5.67 on the 9 point scale for SOI-R behavior. That puts her at 1.74 standard deviations above the female average of 2.65 i.e. highly unrestricted.

    It’s impossible to gauge the SOI-R Desire of a third party, but I can tell you that the SOI-R Attitude of a liberal like her is going to be clearly restricted…

  • INTJ

    Never mind HanSolo beat me to it. And he has actually watched all the Girl’s episodes, so his numbers are going to be correct.

  • HanSolo

    Now, let’s see how unrestricted (or not) Hannah is. Page 8 in the link I provided gives an average (of some sort), M, and the standard deviation, SD.

    Female Behavior Stats: M=2.65, SD=1.73.

    Hannah is about a 6 or 7, so about 2 or more standard deviations higher. Even if there was more time elapsed in Girls so that she’s only had 4 partners in the last year (season 2) then that would give her a score of 5 on the partners-in-the-past-12-months part and an average score of 5, 1.35 SD’s above the average.

    Female Attitude Stats: M=5.41, SD=2.37

    Hannah had a 6 or 7 in my estimate for her (obviously just a reasoned guess since I don’t know what her attitudes really are). So she is just slightly higher than average, so likely somewhat unrestricted in attitude.

    Female Desire Stats: M=3.96, SD=1.94

    I didn’t evaluate Hannah here but the average is only 3.96. I think it’s reasonable to assume that Hannah is probably around average or maybe slightly higher.

    Conclusion: Hannah is clearly recently unrestricted in behavior and likely at least somewhat unrestricted in attitude. No idea for sure about her desire but if we assume it’s about average then her 3 categories would average out to somewhat unrestricted, or more if her desire is also above average.

    Given the choice between calling Hannah restricted, average or unrestricted I will go with unrestricted. Certainly her behavior in Season 2 is.

  • HanSolo

    Hannah’s projected behavior score if she continues on as she is and doesn’t get into a monogamous LTR:

    If she ups her total number of partners to 7-9 for questions 2 (sex only once) and 3 (sex with no interest in LTR) and gets a score of 7 on both those, and if she has these new partners in the next few months so that her N in the last 12 months is also in the 7-9 range then she would have a score of 7 there too, for an average score of 7 in the behavior portion.

    That would be 2.5 standard deviations higher than the average.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    My unstated reason for pointing this all out was that season 2 has veered more SATC whereas in season 1 there seemed to be a more balanced and real-to-life range of behavior amongst the 4 girls.

    It will be interesting to see what happens in the finale and coming seasons.

    If it continues with all 4 girls engaging in casual activities then it will no longer be as representative of the overall population and will send out more of an unrestricted message to society. Not that I say that tv must be representative but it does send an implicit message of what is normal that may be more unrestricted than the reality out there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It will be interesting to see what happens in the finale and coming seasons.

      If it continues with all 4 girls engaging in casual activities then it will no longer be as representative of the overall population and will send out more of an unrestricted message to society. Not that I say that tv must be representative but it does send an implicit message of what is normal that may be more unrestricted than the reality out there.

      Agreed. One of the things I really liked about Season 1 was that LD revealed the hollow, shallow nature of casual sex, for men as well as women. She also had a really good handle on attraction triggers, e.g. Marnie masturbating after Booth tells her “I know how to do things.”

      If Dunham stops exploring the consequences of the character’s actions, the show just becomes another SATC, as you say.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    What? This doesn’t make sense. Your low N made you unrestricted? No, your threesome makes you unrestricted. As I recall, we used the number 14% – to determine that would be well to the right of center on the spectrum.

    This is not inconsistent with the discussion about the Girls characters.

    You can’t have it both ways. Either you follow the SOI-R and look at the totality of all variables measured by the SOI (and OTC will score very low on that), or you measure it based on individual “yes or no” actions that i.e. “a single threesome makes you very unrestricted while a single one night stand puts you in the unrestricted half”.

    Personally, I think OTC is a perfect example of why the SOI isn’t a great measure of sociosexuality. I think it’s a great tool for quantifying sociosexuality on surveys, but certainly not very good for real life. I certainly would give much more importance to my subjective evaluation of a girl’s sociosexuality than her SOI score.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Agreed. One of the things I really liked about Season 1 was that LD revealed the hollow, shallow nature of casual sex, for men as well as women. She also had a really good handle on attraction triggers, e.g. Marnie masturbating after Booth tells her “I know how to do things.”

    If Dunham stops exploring the consequences of the character’s actions, the show just becomes another SATC, as you say.
    Didn’t she got a huge backlash for that? You cannot use the modern liberated woman badge without preaching to the ‘casual sex is human’ choir. If she got enough of a chew on she might just decide to follow The Herd and just concentrate on the good writing, YMMV.

  • HanSolo

    Talk about massive male (and female) quality control. Is a rudimentary Gattaca coming to China?

    http://www.vice.com/read/chinas-taking-over-the-world-with-a-massive-genetic-engineering-program

  • Richard Aubrey

    I don’t watch much television–never Girls–so I’m out of that score-keeping exercise.
    In the line of quality control, I suddenly recalled something which is probably a matter of a small sample being unrepresentative. It does, however, raise a question
    In the last dozen years, I have talked to or heard about six women I knew in college. All married shortly after graduation. Five divorced after periods of twelve to eighteen months.
    I guess the question is how on earth can things be so bad so fast without giving a deal-breaking hint or twenty prior to the big day. Any ideas?

    Referring to an earlier post about men, women, leadership, dominance, etc:
    Kipling, after a visit to the US, observed that the Civil War killed too many of us–think he used the term “autochthones”, or natives.
    Happened to be looking at the posed pix of those guys. A surprising number of them–those who looked older than fourteen, anyway–seemed to be pretty high-T, from their facial features. You could tell, because many of them hadn’t been able to raise a beard.
    Goddamn, I hate to think of that.
    800,000 died in that war, population equivalent of 8 million young men today. According to Bruce Catton in “Mr. Lincoln’s Army”, the common ammunition of the day had a devastating effect on long bones, shattering and splintering them, requiring immediate amputation. So, in addition to the equivalent of 8 million dead coming out of our population, a huge number, possibly as high as the 8 million, were missing one or more limbs, thus disqualifying them from the contemporary versio of the SMP.
    Did we wipe out a generation of high-T, or higher-than-average-T men, natural alphas?
    With what result on the subsequent generations?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      Five divorced after periods of twelve to eighteen months.
      I guess the question is how on earth can things be so bad so fast without giving a deal-breaking hint or twenty prior to the big day. Any ideas?

      I graduated from college in 1978, and two of my sorority sisters married soon thereafter and were divorced within a year. In one case, the guy could not bear to “sully” her by having sex. The marriage was never consummated. For the record, he was RC and she was Protestant – he felt very strongly about waiting till marriage to have sex. They did “everything but” in their four year relationship. I was a bridesmaid at the wedding. That story is one of the reasons I am very much in favor of determining sexual compatibility before marriage. She has never remarried, I don’t know about him.

      The other girl was beaten up several times by her husband and left him after several months. I was also in her wedding. There were no signs of his violent temper before the wedding, but once they got married, everything that didn’t go well for him was her fault and he hit her frequently.

      My guess is that in most cases where marriages end so quickly, there are horrible stories to tell. Another common one is cheating. My BFF’s nephew married in August of 2011, and she was stunned to learn that the couple had separated by January of 2012. It turned out that he had a girl on the side throughout his relationship. She attended the wedding, and they continued their relationship through the newlywed months. He left his email open one day, accidentally on purpose, and his wife learned the truth. They had been together for 5 years prior to marrying.

      I’m sure there are stories where the woman behaved badly, but these are the ones I’ve witnessed.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “What? This doesn’t make sense. Your low N made you unrestricted? No, your threesome makes you unrestricted. As I recall, we used the number 14% – to determine that would be well to the right of center on the spectrum.”

    I goofed the text. Should have said “my experiences, despite low N”.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Richard Aubrey…American Civil War

    In case you haven’t heard it—a song by Joey & Rorey: Josephine

    …inspired by actual letters from Confederate soldier J W Robison to his wife Josephine. The song reminded me again of something Connie Willis wrote in the preface to one of her SF stories:

    “Because the Civil War isn’t over. Its images, dreamlike, stay with us — young boys lying face-down in cornfields and orchards, and Robert E. Lee on Traveller. And Lincoln, dead in the White House, and the sound of crying.

    The Civil War disturbs us, all these long years after, troubling our sleep. Like a cry for help, like a warning, like a dream. And we pore over it, trying to break the code, its meaning just out of reach.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ken Burns’ Civil War is one of the best things I have ever seen on TV. My husband and I still listen to the soundtrack, and we still both tear up at Ashokan Farewell.

  • OffTheCuff

    For the 900th time, I don’t claim to be restricted, just middle of the road. What I don’t understand is how a single experience makes me super-unrestricted, even though it doesn’t change my score at all. It’s like saying a woman is super-unrestricted if she is a stripper, even if it doesn’t alter her score at all. The amount of women who actually strip has zero bearing on what the SOI measures, though, I imagine it might correlate that way!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      What I don’t understand is how a single experience makes me super-unrestricted, even though it doesn’t change my score at all.

      You are right. I retract my claim that you are unrestricted. The SOI score is the SOI score. We don’t get to attach riders to it.

  • JP

    “Piss in the punchbowl? Is that the best you can do? You start off with an article about quality control for people (which is not possible) and end up blogging about a TV show? Maybe piss in the punchbowl is the best you can do…”

    This blog is also a TV show discussion club and has been for some time.

    The current show that the club is discussing is HBO’s “Girls”.

    I’ve only been here a little while and I was able to figure that out.

    Appropriate (high quality) Internet trolling generally doesn’t involve criticizing a blog for one of it’s inherent features.

  • JP

    @DF:

    I don’t think that the current generation really cares about the Civil War, given that the issues were finally settled during WWII and the 1960’s.

    @Richard Aubrey:

    A more significant problem was when Europe decided to go on a massive slaughter of it’s best and brightest during the middle of the 1910’s.

  • HanSolo

    I have a cousin whose wife cheated on him often with the former bf. I think there marriage lasted about a year. Then he married someone else and they’ve been together ever since with 4 kids.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    So, I absolutely loved the finale of girls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, I absolutely loved the finale of girls.

      Me too, I give it an A+.

  • Richard Aubrey

    JP.
    Ref WW I. FYI, I do history, particularly milhist.
    Thing about our Civil War was that, up to Gettysburg, both sides were manned by volunteers. In a way, said Stewart, author of Pickett’s Charge, they wanted to be there.
    IMO, volunteering to fight selects more high-T guys than the draft does, and the draft in the Civil War was considerably leakier than that feeding the “menschen” (“human material”, if I get my kraut right) of all the contending armies.
    Thus, my hypothesis of the winnowing of higher-T guys. I understand the issues have been settled–I was educated in the twentieth century, after all, and we knew that stuff then–but my question is about the price and its possible effect on the gene pool, thence to the SMP.
    You look at those pictures, dammit. You look at them. I see fifteen-year-old men. Today, wandering around, I see….

    Susan, yeah,, the guys behaved badly. Problem is, how on earth did the women miss it? One girl I knew was cheated on–guy probably didn’t think he was worthy of being in bed with her, which, given who she was, was probably correct–and I found out the entire family and presumably her friends had been trying to warn her. Hell, I knew him second-hand and figured he was a loser but was, of course, not in a position to make the case. Among other things, if I could see it at second-hand, she could see it clearly, right?
    If something goes sour in, say, five years, or ten, that’s one thing. But within a year and a half? Got to have been some indication it was a Very Bad Idea long before knot-tying time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Got to have been some indication it was a Very Bad Idea long before knot-tying time.

      In the case of the abuser, I never saw anything troubling, but something about him did seem off. He seemed to resent her friendships, he was very controlling. She liked being submissive to him, but his dominance turned out to be very dark.

      The guy who couldn’t consummate the marriage? We were all shocked. Truly, he was a great guy. He had these principles about sex, but he did appear to have a normal sex drive. For whatever reason, when they got married, he could not bring himself to penetrate her. They worked on it, went to counseling, but never made progress. It was really strange.

  • OffTheCuff

    Thank you. I don’t mind the unrestricted label, as much as the erroneous assumption that I am maximally so. Of course, this goes back to where the line between the two is.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    JP….not sure the settlement of issues has a lot to do with historical memory or the importance thereof. Certainly the issues of WWI are settled (a cynic might ask exactly what they were in the first place), but as you point out the impact remains. And it wasn’t only political and demographic.

    One of the best works on the social/psychological impact of the Great War is a novel, The Road Back, by the author of the much-better-known All Quiet on the Western Front (Erich Maria Remarque.) I reviewed it here.

  • HanSolo

    @Richard

    It is an interesting thought that if the % of high-T guys was reduced by the civil war and if that made the remaining men more “beta” and cooperative. I’ve heard similar speculation (here I think) about the Japanese in WWII. Perhaps the same thing in Germany. Both Germany and Japan have been quite pacifist ever since WWII (more for political reasons no doubt but perhaps there were less T-men and that had a small role).

    We need to think further about the men killed throughout the Soviet Union and China to see if there’s any trends there either.

  • J

    @Jackie
    I really didn’t like Natalia’s “rules” – or the way she laid them out for Adam to obey. I was surprised he said, “I like it that you’re clear with me.”

    Adam is a little ‘spergy. He likes people to be clear verbally because he doesn’t read people well.

    It seemed that the whole encounter was, at some level, Adam trying to get her to pull the plug on their relationship.

    Definitely.

    I also agree with you about Ray.

    Don’t wory about talking my ear off. I love the show.

    @Mireille

    Cute pic and some really astute comments on the show.

    @SW

    I envy that your husband watches the show with you; mine just walks out of the room.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I just saw the Girls finale…!
    Some notes:

    1. That has to be the single worst haircut OF ALL TIME, whether on man, woman or Shetland pony.

    2. The Natalia/Adam thing makes clear Dunham’s intent with the episode before, that no rapeyosity was implied, that there are different kinds of sex different kinds of people require & that these two people just aren’t compatible in bed at ALL. Also made me think of that analysis of inflated rape statistics Christina Hoff Sommers did that showed something like 60% of the women classified by the Cosmo survey as ‘raped’ not only didn’t regard themselves as ‘raped’ but were continuing to have sex with their ‘attackers’ months later.

    3. The croissant-shaped clutch bag.

    4. Marnie will just do it all over again! Charlie, you fool!
    (Oh, & no webcams involved after all).

    5. Adam coming to Hannah in her time of need… that was so beautiful: Really romantic, really sweet, really real. Awww…

    What a great show.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I was hoping you’d check in! I’m going to write a post on the finale, so I hope you’ll comment there too.

      In fact, I hope you’ll cut and paste this one.

      So much great writing, so many great lines!

      Lena Dunham is still so young, but she’s a genius. Both comedically and in her understanding of human psychology. Not to mention her ear for dialogue.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Han Solo,
    A glance at pix of leaders in the last century–Kaiser Bill, ex, Czar Nick, Wilson, Churchill, Hitler and his Goebbels, Himmler, etc.–does not does not show the facial features of T-men, although there need not be an infallible connection.
    Gibbon, of Fall of Rome fame, noted that war is dysgenic. Even in the phalanx, some guys will do yeoman work in the front line, and a few will step forward one more step to…do whatever taking one more step would do in a phalanx. Maybe these guys are the best, maybe they’re psychopaths, maybe they’re patriots (see Conrad, who took Austrian pikes on himself to break the Austrian formation), or maybe they’re nuts, or maybe they’re overly enthusiastic.
    Point is, even in the impersonal death machine of WW I, some guys will take initiative and some will not and the former have a greater chance of being selected against, even a little.
    And, as I said, the Civil War included initially huge proportions of volunteers compared to the draftees.
    Politically…I don’t know. The Germans and the Japanese, having had their culture shocked, having been sat upon by the victors–MacArthur wrote the Japanese constitution–and having had millions of their young men, and civilians killed. Perhaps that’s a cultural lesson, not a genetic one.
    My original point went back to a thread in which I reflected on the facial features of some pix about a hundred years old. One was family–farmers–and the other a high school alumni football team. I said they looked like hard guys, in a tough but not a mean-spirited way. No messing around. No giving up. Not bad guys, but hard. This was in a thread about dominance. The guys didn’t need to be genetically high-T, although they may have been. Circumstance was what made them what they were.
    My son played football in high school. Compared to the old pix, his teammates looked like big, strong kids. Might have averaged fifty pounds bigger, but still late adolescents. Not sure it’s the same. Circumstance.
    And maybe that’s why women find they need to filter for dominance, initiative, competence at dealing with the world when the world gets nasty, and so forth these days.
    Or, as I thought, looking at the Civil War pix, maybe we beta-ed outselves.

    On a population-proportion basis, WW II’s 400,000 American dead would be the equivalent of about 900,000 dead guys today. That’s compared to the population-proportion equivalent of 8 million dead guys today reflecting the impact of the Civil War.
    Got to mean something, as a friend used to say, ’cause it can’t mean nothing.

  • Jackie

    Re: Girls

    How awesome was that finale?!? Adam Driver *forever*! :mrgreen:

    Some very quick thoughts:
    Did anyone else think they ended back up in the same place as the beginning, but in inversion? Examples:
    *Charlie and Marnie are together but now she is the one who is pursuing him as a total mush (for now! That comment about “this isn’t about your money” popping out of her mouth first thing can’t be a coincidence!)

    *Adam :D and Hannah are together as well. Inversions: Instead of her stalking outside his apartment, he comes to hers. Instead of this being some casual thing, in her hour of greatest need when everyone else has dropped her is when Adam is the most devoted of all. More inversions: Instead of being creepy/911-y when he is trying to get in previously, he kicks down the door and this time it’s heroic. MORE: Even the tropes are inverted: How many romantic bedroom scenes end with the male lead topless and the focus on the viewer’s gaze and no sex is implied? Inverted Dunham: This is as intimate as they have ever been and she’s wearing clothes! :-P

    *Shosh and Ray: Just like before, they end up as singles satelliting the couples around them. Inversions: Shosh is no longer the person with no confidence who feels saddled with virginity; she is the confident girl in the bar in what could be a scene out of her fave show, SATC. Ray is determined to make something of himself, in a massive inversion.

    *Jessa is just as alone and nomadic and unreachable as she was at the start. We didn’t really find out anything about her in this one, so no beloved inversions in my observation. (Yet!)

    Those were my first thoughts. This was a great episode! :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I’ve just put up my review of the Girls finale. Would you be so kind as to copy paste your comment there? I think we’re going to have a great discussion!

  • Tomato

    “In the last dozen years, I have talked to or heard about six women I knew in college. All married shortly after graduation. Five divorced after periods of twelve to eighteen months.
    I guess the question is how on earth can things be so bad so fast without giving a deal-breaking hint or twenty prior to the big day. Any ideas?”

    My only anecdote is one of my girl friends who got married after college to a man she had been dating for 1-2 years. It ended in less than a year. Just before marriage he lost his job and subsequently made no effort to find another one. He spent his days playing Xbox and having the nerve to complain when dinner wasn’t ready or laundry wasn’t done. She’s happily remarried now with 2 kids. No idea what happened to him, but good riddance.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Tomato.
    I would be interested, if it were possible without being bored to death, to review their pre-marriage relationship to see if there were any signals a reasonable person would have caught.
    Discernment. Great idea.

  • Sai

    @HanSolo
    “You start off with an article about quality control for people (which is not possible)”

    “Talk about massive male (and female) quality control. Is a rudimentary Gattaca coming to China?”

    Thanks for sharing. Looks like 2 (yours) is proving 1 wrong.

    “We need to think further about the men killed throughout the Soviet Union and China to see if there’s any trends there either.”

    I’ve read that after decades of starvation, dictators, war and general hopelessness, men from the former USSR (the ones who aren’t dead) are sometimes very macho and manly, and sometimes very demotivated and lazy.
    I’ve not yet taken in enough information about China to give an informed-sounding opinion.

    @JP/DF/RA
    “I don’t think that the current generation really cares about the Civil War, given that the issues were finally settled during WWII and the 1960’s.”

    I admit I’ve been slack on Civil War studies, but Robert E. Lee is on my list of dead people to read about. Honest.
    Did you know “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” came out today? Well, not TODAY today, but it’s the anniversary…

  • Resident Comedian

    HanSolo at 175 the last sentence of this paragraph from your link about China is quite apropos, no?

    “At BGI Shenzhen, scientists have collected DNA samples from 2,000 of the world’s smartest people and are sequencing their entire genomes in an attempt to identify the alleles which determine human intelligence. Apparently they’re not far from finding them, and when they do, embryo screening will allow parents to pick their brightest zygote and potentially bump up every generation’s intelligence by five to 15 IQ points.
    Within a couple of generations, competing with the Chinese on an intellectual level will be like challenging Lena Dunham to a getting-naked-on-TV contest.”

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    As I first looked at the diagram I couldn’t help but thing of Prisoner’s Dilema with the male quality low mapping to player B betrays and the male quality high mapping to player B stays silent.

    The problem becomes the woman maps to player A betrays for failure to discern and player A stays silent for success in discerning.

    One interesting observation in this case is both betrayal strategies are betraying the woman (a man who isn’t a player but plays one at a bar may also be betraying himself but that doesn’t enter directly into the game grid).

    This doesn’t seem to match your outcomes as “both betrays” is higher rewards for both partners than a solo betrayal.

    Yet, as you say, The worst outcome, which is unfortunately very common among young women, is the bottom left quadrant, QUEL DESASTRE., so it would appear there is a Nash equilibrium at exactly that quadrant in the same manner as Prisoner’s Dilemma.

    The question becomes why do both parties believe they have more to gain by betrayal than by cooperation. It’s easy in Prisoner’s Base but I can’t find pay-offs here for the woman (who, as you said, faces higher risk in a one off sexual encounter) that create it. Certainly, for the man changing strategy assuming the woman is constant leads to a lower payoff but why do women find not betraying themselves with a man who betrays them worse than betraying themselves.

    Could it be related to the most common search that brings women here, “why don’t I have a boyfriend?” (and variants) which implies an overvaluation of male attention?

    That particular info isn’t new but the fact of how well it maps to Prisoner’s Dilemma just struck me as interesting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Good to see you!

      Could it be related to the most common search that brings women here, “why don’t I have a boyfriend?” (and variants) which implies an overvaluation of male attention?

      Definitely! And very ill-informed expectations of what that male attention means. It’s massive projection – even though women have been told a million times that guys don’t get attached from sex the same way they do, they continue to believe that can give a guy such a memorable and moving experience that he’ll want Round 2, then 3, etc. It’s a Scheherazade strategy!

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    Another assumption is that both parties view a successful relationship as less valuable than “dodging a bullet” or “letting a good one get away”. Neither party should although sometimes it seems like both men and women below a certain age believe that.

    That older people whose lives have fueled cynicism think that way is to be expected. That younger people, women and men, do is somewhat puzzling. For women I can see modern notions of too early fueling the “no relationship” > “a relationship” a little although I’d expect it would drive equality not inequality skewed anti-relationship.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hi Herb Long time no see. :)
    How are you doing? I hope your health has been improving.

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    Definitely! And very ill-informed expectations of what that male attention means. It’s massive projection – even though women have been told a million times that guys don’t get attached from sex the same way they do, they continue to believe that can give a guy such a memorable and moving experience that he’ll want Round 2, then 3, etc. It’s a Scheherazade strategy!

    And it’s the mirror of my theory of what the idea of the cock carousal has such traction. Men are told over and over women want to have sex “just like men” and notice that women have an easier time getting sex when they want want, ergo, they conclude women are continually having sex with every man who walks by (except them).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And it’s the mirror of my theory of what the idea of the cock carousal has such traction. Men are told over and over women want to have sex “just like men” and notice that women have an easier time getting sex when they want want, ergo, they conclude women are continually having sex with every man who walks by (except them).

      I never thought of that – makes sense.

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    @Ana: How are you doing? I hope your health has been improving.

    *laughs* define improving…the cough I had from June to November is most gone, but that’s because I finally went to a pulmonologist who diagnosed it as COPD and got me on inhaled steroids and beta antagonists. The bitch is I never smoked (apparently 10-20% of people with it didn’t…after smoking the second biggest risk factor is relatives with it I had two).

    Still, playing a wind instrument is actually a form of therapy for it, so that cool (usually for people with a worse case than I have…I’m marginal, more on the divide between it and asthma). So I used it as an excuse to get a new toy at bonus time, an electronic wind instrument . Added bonus on that, when you sign up for Reason beta testing one of the questions they ask is what midi-controller you use. I’m hoping that few EWI users sign up (we’re relatively rare) and it’ll get me a leg up on getting into the beta test.

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    @Susan: Any theories on this part:

    Another assumption is that both parties view a successful relationship as less valuable than “dodging a bullet” or “letting a good one get away”. Neither party should although sometimes it seems like both men and women below a certain age believe that.

    I know the PUA/player theory on why men see that as well as the divorce related argument (although how many men under 30 have even heard it), but do you have others.

    Plus, I’m completely at a loss as why women would, especially given your most common entry question.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Another assumption is that both parties view a successful relationship as less valuable than “dodging a bullet” or “letting a good one get away”. Neither party should although sometimes it seems like both men and women below a certain age believe that.

      I’m not sure why you say this – I don’t agree with this claim…

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    I never thought of that – makes sense.

    I could swear I floated it here before.

    For people who argue stats prove the carousal doesn’t exist instead of just proclaiming that you’d be better off addressing why men think it does. Of course, then we get into inherent sex difference which a lot of women attack the carousal idea don’t want to address.

    In a weird way the believe in the ‘sphere of the cock carousal is feminism’s biggest triumph. They’ve gotten men who consider feminism the uber (maybe even ur) enemy to buy one of its key premises (at least radical forms of it).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      For people who argue stats prove the carousal doesn’t exist instead of just proclaiming that you’d be better off addressing why men think it does.

      It exists for sure, it’s just not ubiquitous, as you pointed out. You may have mentioned male projection before, I don’t recall it.

      In a weird way the believe in the ‘sphere of the cock carousal is feminism’s biggest triumph. They’ve gotten men who consider feminism the uber (maybe even ur) enemy to buy one of its key premises (at least radical forms of it).

      Which is probably why we see so many questions and comments here that would be better directed at Jezebels and radfems.

  • http://www.peopletobe.com Herb

    @Susan
    I’m not sure why you say this – I don’t agree with this claim…

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, that’s an assumption that arises if we map your grid to the Prisoner’s dilemma. Even then I wasn’t 100% clear. A woman has to believe rejecting a cad is better than winning a dad (so moving from green to blue increases the pay off just as betraying a prisoner who keeps silent gives a better payoff than mutual silence). Similar, a man has to believe being the one that got away is better than a relationship so for him there is an increased payout moving from green to orange.

    If we modify prisoner’s dilemma to a game where the green and red corners are Nash Equilibriums we probably get a better map of how mating works. The problem then is we’ve sat on one and everyone is afraid to change strategy hoping to get to the other.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Still, playing a wind instrument is actually a form of therapy for it, so that cool (usually for people with a worse case than I have…I’m marginal, more on the divide between it and asthma).

    Good.I googled that and I got scared for a moment. It seems like a nasty one.

    So I used it as an excuse to get a new toy at bonus time, an electronic wind instrument .
    That looks bitching cool. But I prefer strings so not that cool to play for me.

    Added bonus on that, when you sign up for Reason beta testing one of the questions they ask is what midi-controller you use. I’m hoping that few EWI users sign up (we’re relatively rare) and it’ll get me a leg up on getting into the beta test.
    I seem to recall you are somewhat catholic if that is the case my prayers for you.If non-believer crossing fingers.

  • http://get-a-boyfriend-now.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-do-you-get-boyfriend-top-10-list.html Chris

    In the first paragraph, it says woman are more likely to get STD’s. Are men more immune than woman?

    Anyway, I heard this woman saying all of her friends were getting married and having kids in their early 20’s and she was still single and stopped fitting in her group. She said this was the reason she wanted to get married. It was more like peer pressure. (It sounds strange, I know)

    Do you think this can be a reason why woman desperately choose the wrong guys?

  • Resident Comedian

    “I finally went to a pulmonologist who diagnosed it as COPD and got me on inhaled STEROIDS and BETA antagonists. ”

    Yeah those alphas always manage to antagonize betas, don’t they?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    It’s easy to think that life would be so much better if I could only get X, or achieve Y. And yet research shows that those things make us happy only briefly.

    Hmmm, this sent me into a stream of media consciousness. Not sure if it relates (this isn’t a sports blog), but it’s interesting how things work out:

    The Eternal Wisdom of “High Status” (but perhaps not “High Quality”) Individuals

    2006: At age 22, alpha female Olympic skier begins dating her coach, age 31, apparently causing estrangement from her father (a former skier himself).

    2007: Despite the fallout on her side of the family, they marry a year later.

    2009: In an unrelated story, a certain professional golfer’s Thanksgiving dinner is interrupted by a strange, unexplained, but non-life-threatening automobile accident. In the ensuing fiasco, said alpha female Olympic skier mocks him publically:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1966894,00.html

    2011: Divorce proceedings for everyone’s favorite ski couple begin unexpectedly. A rumored fling with Tim Tebow was found to lack merit (even by TMZ standards).

    2013: Divorce is finalized (details under seal). In an ironic full circle, our newly single alpha female Olympic skier goes public with a well-thought-out romance with the same “high status” professional golfer, hairplug aficionado, and notorious sex addict which she disparaged 4 years earlier:

    http://www.golf.com/ap-news/tiger-woods-lindsey-vonn-say-theyre-dating

    Isn’t it all romantic? :wink:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      What a bizarre story – I heard they were dating but didn’t know that very strange background. Has she addressed that publicly? Was there an element of “doth protest too much” way back in 2009?

  • Herb

    @Megaman: I always knew Vonn was no Picabo Street.

    @Ana: Good.I googled that and I got scared for a moment. It seems like a nasty one.

    It is but remember I never smoked. My forced exhalation was 54% of expected which is COPD range but a smoker (like my father) diagnosed at my age is generally at 30% or less. They don’t start making mortality estimates until you drop below 30%. Now, because I didn’t smoke I won’t have the dramatic improvement a smoker who quits will but I’m still better off than a smoking me would be years after stopping.

    Besides, we all gotta die of something and having a smoker’s cough without have smoked gives me something new to bitch about :)

    @Resident Comedian: Yeah those alphas always manage to antagonize betas, don’t they?

    I’m not getting ripped yet but I do seem to be getting acne from them, go figure.

    I was better off with heart issues, one of the things they give you is BETA BLOCKERS but I had to give those up because of the lungs.

    So, if you want to be a player, develop heart disease and the doc will give you BETA BLOCKERS. Ladies, remember a man with a heart condition is probably medicating the beta right out of himself. Respond accordingly :)

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sai.
    Got a friend who writes fiction. Had a character say Lee killed–got killed–more Americans than Hitler and Tojo combined. Not true, but close enough to think about.
    Still, there was talk of running him for president after the war.
    I think the death rate in Russia in WW I, the Civil War, and WW II was close enough to balanced–in the last, the Germans killed indiscriminately when they could and famine and disease and exposure likewise–that maybe there wasn’t a great imbalance between the genders.
    After WW II, the Sovs offered an immediate pension to any woman who had ten kids. Not sure that would motivate the childless, but if you’re up there with six or seven…. And the kids would be pretty much gender-balanced for the next generation.
    At this point, the Russian male population has a declining average life span primarily due to booze.

  • OffTheCuff

    Herb, something similar happened to me. My FEV is 102% when I’m under an asthma attack, but, it’s 200% when I’m not. Keep playing the wind instruments – my doc says it’s some of the best free therapy you can get.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Has she addressed that publicly? Was there an element of “doth protest too much” way back in 2009?

    Not yet, to my knowledge. You know what they say: Never complain, never explain.

    Besides, cynicism tells me that whenever 2 celebrities get together, 50% of the idea was theirs and the other 50% was their publicists.

  • Nordic

    i want to know. which qualities women believe that they select on.

    susan can you help out? what qualities are these?