Winning With a Hard-to-Get Strategy

March 21, 2013

tumblr_m2pbt3ppCy1rsx5gwo1_1280“Easy things nobody wants, but what is forbidden is tempting.” ~ Ovid

Usually when we think of someone playing hard-to-get, we think of deceptive tactics used to manipulate another person’s perceptions and affections. That’s not OK. The Rules suggests we pretend that we’re busy when we’re not, act like we have to get off the phone when we don’t, and generally seem unavailable when we’re anything but. Men too are encouraged to keep women feeling uncertain with push-pull tactics or even outright assholery.

Here are the four worst and most common Hard-to-Get strategies that I’ve seen women deploy:

1. Act bitchy.

Make him try to get your attention repeatedly by giving him 10% encouragement and 90% disinterest. Extreme examples include teasing or even mocking the guy in an effort to show him who’s calling the shots. 

Effectiveness: Good for filtering out all guys not “blessed” with the Dark Triad traits of narcissism, Machiavellianism and sociopathy. 

2. Act unpredictable.

Keep him guessing, never let him forget that other guys find you hot, i.e., you have options. Encourage attention from other men and flirt in front of him whenever possible. Keeping him in a perpetual state of jealousy will keep him focused on you.

Effectiveness:  Excellent for a highly volatile and drama-filled relationship that blows up in a few months.

3. Act independent.

Get all feministy by demanding plenty of Girls Nights Out, going to parties without him, and generally acting like the nights he doesn’t see you are none of his business. The idea is to leave him in a perpetual state of dissatisfaction. He should always want more from you than you’re willing to give. 

Effectiveness: Guaranteed to create resentment followed by low investment. 

4. Act casual.

The last thing you’re looking for is a relationship. You’re cool with no-strings sex, and you’ll engage in it as often as possible, peppered with warnings to him not to get clingy, you like your space, and you don’t have any idea when you’ll next be available. “Don’t call me, I’ll call you.”

Effectiveness: Poor for a man with any self-respect. good for a total chump (but you don’t want him). 

As you can see, all of these attempts to demonstrate that you are the forbidden, tempting thing can fill weeks or even months with confusing mixed messages no budding relationship can survive. They’re the worst form of self-sabotage. (In some cases, the women really are all these things – in which case a personality transplant is required.)

Is There a Way to Play Hard-to-Get Successfully and Ethically?

Funny you should ask. Research shows that both men and women prefer less available partners in some cases.

In one study, both male and female college students indicated they prefer easy-to-get targets when they’re seeking casual sex. When they’re interested in dating and forming a relationship, they prefer targets with intermediate availability.

In another study, men and women were asked what they’d spend on a date for people with various levels of ability:

Easy to get: $33.10

Harder to get: $34.99

Hard to get: $44.45

Clearly, both sexes place a higher value on hard-to-get people. So how do we define hard-to-get? It turns out that when 500 college students were asked that question, the two behaviors both sexes cited most frequently were:

  1. Appearing highly self-confident.
  2. Talking to other people.

In other words, we’re not interested in people who manipulate us, we’re interested in people who are confident, socially adept, and presumably well-liked. We’re looking for “inner game” in people. Men and women were equally likely to report having used these behaviors to appear attractive to someone they were interested in. 

However, when the researchers drilled down, they did find some sex differences. 

Women were more likely to report:

  • Not initiating contact
  • Keeping busy
  • Teasing
  • Flirting with other men
  • Sarcasm
  • Withholding sex (+1!)

Men were more likely to report:

  • Not calling
  • Acting snotty or rude (Pretend Assholes!)
  • Treating others like shit in front of the woman

(Thankfully, these last two tactics were infrequently reported.)

From the study’s author, Peter Jonason:

“We all would want honesty in dating but this is never going to happen. We are not overtly lying, but we’re always trying to marry up.”  

…Women broadcast their interest and made themselves unavailable, while men appeared available and pretended not to be that interested. 

The research also confirmed what anyone who has ever dated anywhere, ever, probably already suspected: that women play hard-to-get far more often than men do. 

“Women derive more benefit from playing hard-to-get because it allows them to test men out and increase the demand men place on them.”

Both men and women also used the tactic to test a potential partner’s willingness to commit.

Another study included a group of male college students who were asked to choose from among attractive women, each of whom had an assigned level of availability.

Easy to get women: 5 votes

Always hard to get women: 6 votes

Selectively hard to get women: 42 votes

By selectively hard to get, the males understood that the woman was easy only for them to get, and would reject the other males. If she was perceived as selective, but liked him, he was very inclined to like her back. 

The Winning Strategy

Appear confident and well-socialized in front of your desired object. At the same time, communicate your interest clearly. Yes, you could spend the whole night flirting with other guys, but you choose to spend it talking with him. 

Filter in relationship-worthy men and filter out cads and players by acting:

  1. Interested and encouraging
  2. Focused on him, keeping communication with other males platonic
  3. Available for further opportunities to spend time together
  4. Disinterested in any casual contact or relationship

Withholding sex until you’re in an exclusive arrangement is really the only way in which you want to be very hard-to-get!

H/T: Stuart Schneiderman

Note: The paper summarizing the research mentioned above is not yet available for full perusal online. I have obtained the data for this post via the sources linked in the post. 

  • tilikum

    I adore your blog. i really do. i read it a ton.

    But Sue, you described the Dark Triad to a tee. All the sphere did was list the nuclear solution to vet out selectiveness in the top 2-5% of men and women (in looks, status, etc) respectively, and then teach men how to:

    Make sure you are rating yourself and the girl appropriately so you can calibrate the Triad down to nothing if necessary to pierce the natural veil of selectiveness.

    Undoubtedly there are a few men that over use it, but people pair off pretty naturally. Society, culture, etc. scrambled the signals and as humans we are adapting, together.

    You have a sweet and kind heart, and I truly appreciate how you are trying to help women get what they want, quality relationships between people that can grow together.

    i mean it too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tilikum

      Yeah, I thought that Dark Triad list of male HTG behaviors was great – it shows you that either Game has gone mainstream, or at a more basic level guys have wised up to the fact that chicks dig jerks. Well, some do, but enough to tip male behavior into that realm.

      At the same time, the 4 terrible HTG strategies that women use are also frequently successful – in the short term. Some of the worst offenders have constant drama with men – which proves that they are able to capture the attention of males they want, at least for a while.

      Make sure you are rating yourself and the girl appropriately so you can calibrate the Triad down to nothing if necessary to pierce the natural veil of selectiveness.

      I am pro-Game, for the record. But it’s far from perfect. One area where I think it falls short is in self-rating and calibration. That’s not a problem with the technique, but with the application. It tends to work well for STRs, but IMO less well for people who want to use it to get an LTR. Of course, the irony is that many guys who want to learn Game really want a girlfriend, not to get with women in bars.

      Society, culture, etc. scrambled the signals and as humans we are adapting, together.

      I find this statement very heartening. I hope we are adapting together, in a way that will help people form lasting relationships. I worry that those scrambled signals have produced a very large number of people who are shielding themselves and acting out rather than admit a single bit of vulnerability. The Principle of Least Interest problem.

  • Abbot

    “When they’re interested in dating and forming a relationship, they prefer targets with intermediate availability.”

    And who consistently made themselves available for sex similarly in the past

    .

  • tilikum

    “1.Interested and encouraging
    2.Focused on him, keeping communication with other males platonic
    3.Available for further opportunities to spend time together
    4.Disinterested in any casual contact or relationship

    Withholding sex until you’re in an exclusive arrangement is really the only way in which you want to be very hard-to-get!”

    Great advice but i want to add something. Women are going to also calibrate to how MBTI judges the last part of your personality’s “functional stack”. (google it)

    This advice is spot on for a man (fortunately 60-80% of the male population) who ends in a P. P is perceiving.

    For a J (judgement) guy, hard to get really screws him up because as a judgment guy, he learns to trust it implicitly. What will happen if you play too hard to get, is he will withdraw in question of his own judgement. Not good. Remember he has already watched you, tested you, and judged you as being well worthy of the investment so when you over girl-game him it invokes a feeling of dread that make his entire psyche shake similar to how jealousy will in a male.

    You are causing him to question the map in his head and his entire worldview i.e.: if he missed that, what else is he missing. In reality he isn’t, but the girl is just going through her process. I’ll add she is going through her process with most likely a very private person who JUST BY SHOWING UP has made the ultimate investment.

    Think introverts like artists, poets, and the like.

    Just a thought, I’m still working it out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tilikum

      Another MBTI expert! We can never get enough of that around here.

      How does the advice not work for a judgment guy? The only hard-to-get aspect of my recommendation has to do with sex.

      I’m married to an introvert, and honestly, I’m still learning new things about the different ways we each processed our early interactions. Talk about crossed signals. It’s a wonder we ever got together, and it required each of us essentially jumping off a cliff.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sounds like overthinking. May be valid in the aggregate, but in individual cases, there are too many additional factors. It could be the way to bet, if you have enough opportunties to get the house margin, but sometimes the house loses big the first time around.
    Strained metaphor alert.
    But there are some guys who really, really like the big chest. That will overcome other aspects of their judgment. Duh.
    Some girls like guys who are almost as tall as they are…. Ditto.
    Some girls like guys who can handle the real world competently but at a residence college may not have an opportunity to see the guy taking care of business.
    Some individuals may be going through a drought, with the usual effect on judgment. Or a surplus, ditto.
    Campus is a playground for extended adolescence with every effort made to smooth the path of the Kids. Hell, in the dorms, they even did your sheets and towels in the laundry and waxed the floor for you. How in hell are you going to see an entire person there?
    Point is, eventually the odds come out they way they’re supposed to. The trick is hanging on without serious damage until reaching eventually.
    Been a while, but I do not ever recall seeing a woman I was dating, or whom I knew but wasn’t dating, or wanted to date, in terms of availability due to other guys’ getting her attention, except for one or two who were coupled, but that was sort of an automatic fence-raiser.
    Some of the attention I didn’t know I was getting from women until decades later had to do, imo, with the fact that, not chasing them, I was pretty cheerfully matter-of-fact with them, which presumably signaled I had a satisfactory social life, which signaled I must have my act together. Perhaps I did. But not being needy, and not even attempting to approach seemed to be a Big Deal. Whose effects I never noticed.
    Point is, I’m a guy. The odds quoted in the study didn’t apply to me for half a dozen reasons. Eventually it worked out, but only because, due to circumstances, I had, among other things, more time than most folks my age.

    Some individuals may be going through a drought, with the usual effect on judgment. Or a surplus, ditto.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      Point is, eventually the odds come out they way they’re supposed to. The trick is hanging on without serious damage until reaching eventually.

      This is my stock advice to girls who are really bummed by the hookup scene in college, and it applies to guys as well. Hang on, look for alternative scenes and people. Don’t act impulsively – keep your eye on the prize. The women in my focus groups were bummed for so long, but now in their early to mid 20s they have mostly found males a bit older and very interested in commitment. These guys are not players by any means, so having kept their N relatively low has been very important.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’m married to an introvert, and honestly, I’m still learning new things about the different ways we each processed our early interactions. Talk about crossed signals. It’s a wonder we ever got together, and it required each of us essentially jumping off a cliff.”

    Me and my wife are both introverts (i suspect she fits INFJ or whatever Hope/Ana are).

    We talk about first meeting and dating each other and our interpretation (and sometimes memory) are quite different.

    I think this might be more of a guy-girl thing than a personality type thing.

  • Vivien L.

    As a introverted female with a J, what Tili says makes sense.

  • Mike M.

    Hmm…I can wholeheartedly agree with a woman being (NOT playing) hard to get sexually. But I also think it’s a good strategy to talk to any man who is polite. Chalk it up to building karma.

  • Mike M.

    The hard part being that I test out as INTP…but the P and J are very, very close.

  • INTJ

    @ Richard Aubrey

    Hell, in the dorms, they even did your sheets and towels in the laundry and waxed the floor for you.

    Wait where?

  • INTJ

    @ tilikum

    For a J (judgement) guy, hard to get really screws him up because as a judgment guy, he learns to trust it implicitly. What will happen if you play too hard to get, is he will withdraw in question of his own judgement. Not good. Remember he has already watched you, tested you, and judged you as being well worthy of the investment so when you over girl-game him it invokes a feeling of dread that make his entire psyche shake similar to how jealousy will in a male.

    You are causing him to question the map in his head and his entire worldview i.e.: if he missed that, what else is he missing. In reality he isn’t, but the girl is just going through her process. I’ll add she is going through her process with most likely a very private person who JUST BY SHOWING UP has made the ultimate investment.

    This makes a lot of sense, especially for TJs (i.e. those with a Te function). If I’m interested in a person, it’s because I’ve already evaluated her as very high value. Seeing her then play hard to get makes me wonder what went wrong with my evaluation.

  • INTJ

    And yeah, Susan is suggesting playing selectively hard to get, which would work amazingly well with a J guy.

  • Richard Aubrey

    INTJ
    Michigan State University, near the middle of the last century. Yup. Every–maybe it was Tuesday–you brought your sheets, pillowcases and towels to the laundry room and, after making sure you were turning it all in, they gave you a tightly-wound roll of the same, all clean and stuff. Goes without saying some guys didn’t bother. For the longest time.

  • Ted D

    I concur on the TJ and issues with women playing hard to get.

    I know it’s tough for you extroverted feelers to understand, but if I am talking to you for more than the socially acceptable polite conversation, I’ve already made a few dozen judgements about you that have gone in your favor. Otherwise I would have walks away after we were done talking about the weather.

    If I’m interested in and pursuing a woman, I’ve already made many dozen judgements that have gone in your favor, AND I like your personality, AND of course I think you’re hot. In truth, part of the reason it appears that I fall “hard and fast” is because I started filtering before the first hello was exchanged. In fact, there’s a fair chance the fact I even said hello is because she already made it through round one.

  • Resident Comedian

    “Treating others like shit in front of the woman”

    I’d think this’d be a major turn off. Ladies?

  • Vivien L.

    @Susan

    Can you link the posts that have tips on emotional escalation (for women)? I’m trying to brush up.

  • tilikum

    I really scramble a girl up as an INFJ. Think High T masculinity turned up to 100 and then the ability to simultaneously engage the emotion centers of my brain at will. (years of training)

    With diet and some tricks to stimulate my frontal cortex and halt a miggy hijack, it’s interesting. I can be emotionally wired as a dude, or as a girl with sme thought.

  • J

    I see bitchy/independent as the female version of PUA aloof/cocky. Yes, the “hard to get” approach will get some members of the opposite excited; the question is the quality of the people one can atract with it. At some point, people with healthy self-esteem will demand good treatment.

    That is not to say that people of either sex will respect a doormat of the opposite sex.

  • J

    By selectively hard to get, the males understood that the woman was easy only for them to get, and would reject the other males. If she was perceived as selective, but liked him, he was very inclined to like her back.

    The Winning Strategy

    Appear confident and well-socialized in front of your desired object. At the same time, communicate your interest clearly. Yes, you could spend the whole night flirting with other guys, but you choose to spend it talking with him.

    Pure gold, as they say.

  • Richard Aubrey

    J.
    “That is not to say that people of either sex will respect a doormat of the opposite sex.”
    Hence the infamous shit tests, I suppose.

    Problem with hard to get, or some version of giving somebody a hard time getting closer is…what is the trouble going to get him/her?
    Do you bring enough to the table to be worth a couple of hoops?
    At the age in question (college), being treated as valuable company by an attractive member of the opposite sex is pretty neat.

  • http://www.bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: the power of scarcity dynamics on human psychology. The book “Contagious” tells the story of SmartBargains.com, a discount shopping site for unloading clearance items. When that website started posting stagnant performance numbers a few years ago, the CEO launched a sister site called “Rue La La”.

    Rue La La carried the same products as SmartBargains did, but focused on limited-time, exploding-offer “flash sales” that would typically last 24 hours or so. It also used an invitation-only access gimmick that was modeled on high-fashion trunk sales and created an exclusivity vibe.

    Rue La La’s sales took off.

    On a peripherally related note, if you want someone to do something risky, social psychology studies have demonstrated that you can’t allow her to see the default, status quo option of avoidance as inherently safe. *Most* people are biased towards risk-averse behavior.

    The tested solutions that I am familiar with involve creating a context in which the default option is connected to a credible narrative that says that doing nothing with lead to sure losses. Most people will gamble more when the alternative is a certain loss.

    Example:

    You own a company that employs 600 people. One production line is completely fucked and poised to take the whole company down.

    Option A. If you cut the unprofitable line, you will immediately have to fire 400 people, but 200 jobs will be saved.

    Option B. You can invest in some new, experimental PPE that could reverse the fortunes of the unprofitable line. There is a 2 in 3 chance that this will work, saving all 600 jobs. However, if it doesn’t work, the company is blown up and all jobs are lost.

    What do you do? The majority of business students asked this question would choose Option B and gamble the company, and they consider this the more heroic, high-octane leadership, one-for-all-and-all-for-one decision.

    One of the biggest mistakes I made when I started in the hedge fund industry was in failing to create the right sense of fear in potential clients. They were being asked to do something risky, and I should have framed their primary decision fork is such a way that the “Don’t Invest” default option was credibly, even viscerally connected to great perils, to tangible, heavy losses.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I cosign J’s statement:

    Pure gold, as they say.

    I think this post should be up there in the ‘Best Posts’ category.

  • Sassy6519

    Great post Susan. I’ll keep this in mind. How easy it is for me to implement this information will be the real test, however.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Haha, that hipster trap is hilarious!
    I loved the camera, nice detail. That Hipster is toast.

    That’s why the guys waiting to enlist in 1914 looked like the models for the old Arrow Shirt Collar ads, or the guys in Edwardian portraits and now the Brits look like Mick Jagger and Ringo Starr. With an occasional Daniel Craig as an outlier.
    I don’t know I always though Frenchmen were ugly in fact in movies the hot French men are played by other nationalities Jean Reno and Gerald Depardieu are not ‘conventionally attractive’. But British actors are usually so cute that they look borderline androgynous look at Robert Pattinson, Andrew Garfield and so on. I think the joke goes “He is not gay just British” because of that. Maybe the ones that looked too girly managed to stay around and reproduce while the manly ones fought?

    Me and my wife are both introverts (i suspect she fits INFJ or whatever Hope/Ana are). ,/i>
    Actually I’m an Extrovert iNtuitive Thinking/Feeling Judging. The thinking and feeling are very close so some tests read T some others read F. My Extroversion is mild too but is still there.

    You are causing him to question the map in his head and his entire worldview i.e.: if he missed that, what else is he missing. In reality he isn’t, but the girl is just going through her process. I’ll add she is going through her process with most likely a very private person who JUST BY SHOWING UP has made the ultimate investment.
    THIS oh so much. I said before that I don’t fall for negs and this is the reason why. Any guy that asked if my nails were real will lose my attention because I will be thinking I judged the state of my nails wrong and probably ask around who else agree with him to find what is the truth. That applies to pretty much everything. That or confusion “Why would he tell me that” And then spent the night thinking why but not daring to ask him. I need to judge on my own you know. What a stupid brain we judgers have :p

    With diet and some tricks to stimulate my frontal cortex and halt a miggy hijack, it’s interesting. I can be emotionally wired as a dude, or as a girl with sme thought.
    My Neuromancer and Forever War books are next to my Twilight and Pride and Prejudice novels :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    QUOTE FAIL!
    Me and my wife are both introverts (i suspect she fits INFJ or whatever Hope/Ana are).
    Actually I’m an Extrovert iNtuitive Thinking/Feeling Judging. The thinking and feeling are very close so some tests read T some others read F. My Extroversion is mild too but is still there.

  • Sai

    “going to parties without him”
    You aren’t supposed to do that? (STILL LEARNING)

    I wish there was an easy way to tell the difference between just curious guys and introverts who are already super-interested.

  • tilikum

    Sai@28

    Its the eyes. Every time. The men will generally be piercing blue and have very slavic or northern european K selected looks and auras.

    The women 90% of the time a very doe eyed brown, and will be ultra feminine. Check digit ratios.

    Here is the KEY. Introverts you want to know will ALWAYS be behind the bar or serving your food and you will remember them as the most outgoing person you have met so you will pass them over never even realizing how deep they are.

    They can mirror emotions naturally, and the interaction with you feeds their intimacy needs as much or as little as they require that day. They will take as much or as little from their patron as they need. Usually its subconscious but sometimes not.

    Introverts will also be out ALOT at bars.

    Look for the guy happily sitting alone OR being extra engaging. No middle ground.

    He will know ALL the staff well, and they will love him. We hate to build new relationships, its draining, and we just need to recharge so we don’t ever barhop.

    He will stare off into space, and always with his back to the room. His gaze will generally be fixed. He is recharging his batteries, so wait until he stops and shifts just a little in his chair, either to use the bathroom or look around.

    Walk up and say hi.

    If you meet his approval, he will quickly engage. DONT PLAY HARD TO GET. you will lose by being incongruent to your original engagement.

    Invest.

    NOTE: if he tries to kiss you and you pull away, he will instantly friendzone you and NEVER try again. You made an emotional investment risk that he internally judged as a 100% interest in him, and you shut him down causing him to question the entire interaction. Next.

    Also, introverts make the absolutely best, hottest lovers hands down, but if they aren’t very emotionally connected to themselves, they can act out.

    Don’t make the mistake of looking at his bad behavior from a solipsistic perspective (i.e.: how it makes you feel) but ask him WHY he is behaving that way. Maintain your investment, and his introverted nature will COMPEL him to examine his behavior and it will change.

    If he has a substance issue, leave immediately. Introverts and substance issues are fire and gas. They are in their shadow, and has become a shiny steel cylender that you will never be able to pour enough love into until THEY fix themselves.

    IMO, the majority of Heroin and Alcoholics are Introverts. Tortured.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, my husband and I are both INFJ, and our memories/interpretations of our meeting and dating are similar and in parallel with each other.

    Sassy, I think you already pretty much show how choosy you are in most of your conversations. Guys probably know your filters don’t let in too many guys, and if he is the chosen one he would be rather happy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I bet it has to do with communication. You and your husband shared every step of the journey together. By the time my husband and I talked about mutual feelings, I’d been crazy about him for months already. Also, I’d believed he didn’t really know I existed, but I learned he had been observing me carefully all that time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, yeah that probably had a lot to do with it. We were many states apart but knew lots of details of each other’s days, thoughts and feelings. Just before I moved to be with him, he made a video tour of the apartment we were going to share together. At no point was I left wondering, “Is he actually serious about me?”

    He practiced his own version of selectively hard to get, because he was very choosy about girls. He told me right off that he wasn’t looking for a girlfriend, because most girls are not good girlfriend material (ouch). Then after getting to know me a little better, he said I had “potential” to be that. I felt pretty special knowing he was easy for me to get, but other girls didn’t make it through his super tight filter (which resulted in his very low N).

  • tilikum

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/02/relationshipstrategies/going-up-the-emotional-escalator/

    this is the single best thread you have on your blog if a woman really wants to attract a high quality guy.

    I also love and suggest that the term “combat dating” be tattooed on the wrist of every 10 year old girls arm. This is a girl problem and only you can fix it. You want to end “game” and Dark Triad abuses? BE women again. BE everything that we can’t be to ourselves as men. IF you don’t, a man somewhere, will invent an artificial womb and womanhood will be commoditized as egg producers.

    Women over 25 will become irrelevant and invisible wholesale, and you will usher in the largest pendulum swing in gender warfare the world has ever seen that will relegate the female human to that of milk cow.

    Be women. Be soft and caring and don’t compete with men or we will replace you out of necessity. Only 40% of men get to reproduce today and the other 60% are getting richer every day.

    So simple. Stop the insanity ladies.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Tilikum, you are too clever.

    Why invent artificial wombs when surrogacy from third world and developing countries is readily available now?

    Womanhood has been commoditized before and is still in many parts of the world. And threatening women with this makes them want to love men… how?

    Many women already experience irrelevance and invisibility before 25, due to a number of factors. What else is new?

    Change cannot be forced upon others via negativity and hatred, at least not in the long run. Change is inspired with positivity and love.

    I would have never tried to be the best girlfriend, wife and mate I could possibly be for a guy who threatened to invent an artificial womb/leave me for younger and hotter/make me feel like I’m the only problem at every turn.

    It is because my man has so much compassion, kindness, understanding and love, that I want to give my whole heart and soul to him. He was himself the force of light and positivity he wanted to see in the world, and he inspired me to change for him.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Yeah, I don’t get that.

    Even if artificial or surrogate wombs somehow become commonplace, you still need eggs. Plus, men don’t really have that yearning to… you know, to blow a lot of money raising kids by themselves. ???

    I sure know that if I was unable to attract women, I would simply not have kids, not try to have kids without women. And have a LOT more fun money!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Plus, men don’t really have that yearning to… you know, to blow a lot of money raising kids by themselves. ???
    At least one did: http://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2011/08/12/single_man_wanted_a_child_hired_a_surrogate_had_a_baby.html
    We won’t know for sure until surrogacy becomes cheaper and more widespread.

  • tilikum

    Two choices:

    Ignore the natural world and default to personal feelings and skewed cultural prerogatives that are founded on our collective excesses re: a very biological and mechanical process; or

    Embrace the the way we have existed for 100 million years.

    Your choice, not mine, but that smacks of entitled thinking defaulting what Susan so aptly called “Life Splitting” to an entire species. Hmmm.

    Note: Notice how Susan reacted to me after

    A. I made a comment yesterday
    B. She got a little pissy
    C. I shared in a genuine and vulnerable way
    D. she reacted with kindness and empathy
    E. I have attempted to contribute value exponentially more for her benefit

    Hmmm….

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Yeah, one guy. Spend $40K deal with travel, legal entanglements, and two women who might change their mind, when women can do the same for $0.

    I don’t think this will become a popular option.

  • Sai

    @Susan
    I’m not the one who asked, but I could really benefit from reading what you posted, so thanks!

    @tilikum
    Thanks for that description. I know you didn’t do it on purpose, but about a quarter of that describes me too.

    “Be soft and caring and don’t compete with men”
    I honestly still have trouble with this part. Not that I’m full of hate, but the normal configuration is feelings (of any sort) in two chambers and the other four sit empty.
    I have improved with not showing off though. If I feel TOO inadequate compared to him I can just end the conversation.

    @Hope
    “Why invent artificial wombs when surrogacy from third world and developing countries is readily available now?”

    I don’t think anyone even has to leave his own country.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yeah, one guy. Spend $40K deal with travel, legal entanglements, and two women who might change their mind, when women can do the same for $0.
    First women can change their minds too via abortion and the guy has not right to stop her even if he is married to the woman and the father.
    Second investment on dates, houses, ring, wedding….might make this cost about the same or cheaper depending on how attractive the woman is or not and then she can also change her mind and have a divorce.
    I also mentioned that once the demand is high enough from couples that the government has to regulate it is when we will see a bump on men choosing this. Like every leap in technology.

    I don’t think this will become a popular option.
    I actually think it will.
    First there is no shame on being a single mother or being born out of wedlock anymore and statistically speaking this option for women is growing and becoming more attractive. Women also have the choice to freeze their eggs.
    The fights for the gays to have the right to raise their own children had taken the stint of the idea of the single father being less than ideal for a child.
    If men can modify their mating choices to pick women based on their earning potential and education just because society tells them so. Then is only a matter of time that single fatherhood via surrogacy becomes acceptable to a point that many men will go that route. It might be wrong but this happened already with single motherhood is only logical that men follow the trend if the only thing stopping might be shame or pride. A few Alphas do this and many men will follow, IME, YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, you are ignoring the masculine nature. Playing video games and watching porn is what many bachelors are doing, not signing up for 3 am feedings and baby’s crying interrupting everything. Unless it’s a very nurturing guy who just can’t live without babies, I don’t see how men would sign up for that en masse.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

    Are you kidding, Ana? You’re usually super-smart, but seem totally off the rocker here.

    I had zero interest in kids until… eh, a few weeks after my child was already born. For the first few days I remember thinking “who the hell is this?” Then it was – OH! This is MY KID!

    Up until then, the strongest you could ever say was that I was open to the concept. Most men don’t get “baby rabies”.

    We have to be socialized into wanting and investing kids, despite me being raised 100% as a beta provider, I still only wanted it a side-effect of my own life at best.

    I just don’t see it happening, MRA FUD aside.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Are you kidding, Ana? You’re usually super-smart, but seem totally off the rocker here.

    Thank you for the compliment :)
    Up until then, the strongest you could ever say was that I was open to the concept. Most men don’t get “baby rabies”.

    I have good memory and I had been studying evolving social issues for a while and I have the privileged of seeing in other cultures. I think that ‘baby rabies’ has a strong biological component but also I had seen changes on this depending on societal pressures and expectations. You need to remember that single motherhood, homosexuality, some science discoveries, heck I still remember when internet dating was considering the lowest thing you could do at best and a sure way to catch an ugly serial killer at worst… this was also viscerally despised by most societies yet we managed to suppress this ideas. The same thing for sexuality, and other things. I do think people in the middle of the spectrum are more malleable than we give we think and I think more men will jump into this with time.

    We have to be socialized into wanting and investing kids, despite me being raised 100% as a beta provider, I still only wanted it a side-effect of my own life at best.
    First beta provider =/= father or wanting kids.
    Second you were socialized by many things but you didn’t ended up doing all of them did you?
    Third my husband logically supports all those ideas that kids are a burden for the planet resources. Yet, he still was looking for a wife to have 2 children with him. When I asked him why he just shrugs “I guess monkey brain is doing that choice” So yeah monkey brain is powerful.
    I remember a couple of my priests and training priests friends that told me that as hard celibacy was the idea of not having kids ever or never holding a newborn of their own was a lot more painful and I know at least one that after years of celibacy quit to get married and have that kid he couldn’t stop yearning for that it was too painful to bear.
    Maybe you personally wouldn’t had gone that route but I don’t think is as farfetched to think that some men do get baby rabies and with the tools available would go that route. Again time will tell.

  • tilikum

    Hey OffTheCuff,

    What do you think they do to little girl in China?

    Get out of your own head and look around maybe.

  • JP

    “Third my husband logically supports all those ideas that kids are a burden for the planet resources.”

    That logic only applies with certain a priori assumptions.

    Burden?

    Only to the extent that people choose stupidity.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That logic only applies with certain a priori assumptions.

    Burden?

    Only to the extent that people choose stupidity.

    Is mostly in matters of resources and carbon footprint, Reason he wants two no four.

  • JP

    “We have to be socialized into wanting and investing kids, despite me being raised 100% as a beta provider, I still only wanted it a side-effect of my own life at best.”

    Except for the fact that humans evolved because of childhood.

    Meaning that we are only us because we have an extended childhood, which is part of our evolutionary exceptionalism.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/01/evolution_of_childhood_prolonged_development_helped_homo_sapiens_succeed.2.html

  • INTJ

    *Sigh*

    So I see there’s yet another thing that makes me an unusual male. I want babies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So I see there’s yet another thing that makes me an unusual male. I want babies.

      This is not unusual in my experience. On our third date (if you can call it that) my husband told me what he hoped to name his future daughter. My son often speaks of his future kids, and so does my daughter’s bf.

  • JP

    @Anacoana:

    “Is mostly in matters of resources and carbon footprint, Reason he wants two no four.”

    Except that the future isn’t linear.

    That thinking is so 20th century.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    So I see there’s yet another thing that makes me an unusual male. I want babies.

    I don’t think so, like mentioned above I had seen this in other males for reasons that reason can’t explain.
    I also think sexual restrictiveness might be correlated to inclination to want babies somehow. After all if you only can mate with SOME individuals you surely need to invest a lot in the offspring since it might be your only chance to reproduce. It could also be the other way around the desire to have offspring to care about make you more selective on who is going to add the other half of their DNA because you will need the help of someone similarly invested on their well being. Just thinking out loud.

  • JP

    “You need to remember that single motherhood, homosexuality, some science discoveries, heck I still remember when internet dating was considering the lowest thing you could do at best and a sure way to catch an ugly serial killer at worst… this was also viscerally despised by most societies yet we managed to suppress this ideas.”

    The question is which of those things are akin to foot binding.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding

    Culture is often stupid, whether “repressive” or “liberal”.

    I suspect that celibacy is inane as far as spiritual practices go.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That thinking is so 20th century.
    Is still around if you do a search. Not sure how youngsters are taking that though.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Culture is often stupid, whether “repressive” or “liberal”.

    Can’t argue with that…

    I suspect that celibacy is inane as far as spiritual practices go.

    Well the story of celibacy and religion is complex. Most religions give up something at least briefly to appease the Gods, to reach spiritual enlightenment, to show virtue or commitment to the cause or for practical reasons. Is easier to serve a higher up if you don’t have to support a family or breastfeed a baby and in the case of the Church to avoid having the high seats being passed to their children as nobility titles, that caused a lot of bloodshed and corruption. So, it depends.

  • JP

    “Is easier to serve a higher up if you don’t have to support a family or breastfeed a baby and in the case of the Church to avoid having the high seats being passed to their children as nobility titles, that caused a lot of bloodshed and corruption. So, it depends.”

    A good question is whether it is necessary or even helpful for the spiritual ascent.

    I can become a married catholic priest if I want to do so and the Holy See wouldn’t have the slightest problem with it or any problem with any children I had while being a priest.

  • OffTheCuff

    Come on. I wanted babies, but, they were secondary to other things. I just didn’t want them enough to go and try to have them by myself, without a woman involved raising them. Sure, I spent money on my wife. She contributes a *ton* of unpaid work raising them, which has value in my eyes. We are a great team.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I just didn’t want them enough to go and try to have them by myself, without a woman involved raising them.

      Yeah, I’ll admit this seems extremely unlikely to me as well. I think most men would reject the idea for a variety of reasons, the main one being that they would have no idea how to approach caring for an infant alone.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ana: “Second you were socialized by many things but you didn’t ended up doing all of them did you?”

    Pretty much, I have.

    Ana: “Maybe you personally wouldn’t had gone that route but I don’t think is as farfetched to think that some men do get baby rabies and with the tools available would go that route. Again”

    I said men have to be socialized to invest in kids. They’ll gladly create them with no encouragement whatsoever!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Pretty much, I have.
    *coughthreesomecoughthreesome*
    Unless that was your way to interpret the Holy Trinity ;)

    I said men have to be socialized to invest in kids. They’ll gladly create them with no encouragement whatsoever!

    Like with many things they didn’t had the option until now. I might be wrong but I wouldn’t be so sure that men are not going to try this in significant numbers, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Come on. I wanted babies, but, they were secondary to other things. I just didn’t want them enough to go and try to have them by myself, without a woman involved raising them. Sure, I spent money on my wife. She contributes a *ton* of unpaid work raising them, which has value in my eyes. We are a great team.
    I would like to add that with daycare and female relatives and friends this is not an one person job I doubt it has ever been. Not even single working mothers do it all without help.

  • JP

    “I would like to add that with daycare and female relatives and friends this is not an one person job I doubt it has ever been. Not even single working mothers do it all without help.”

    Raising children has never even been a *two person* job.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/making-humans/201210/parents-have-always-been-subsidized

  • Sundance

    Susan,

    Does your “withhold sex” advice apply to women who’ve had lots of partners? My observation is that many chicks enjoy the hookup culture until they don’t. Then they want to be a born-again virgin employing a HTG strategy. As a man I find that an offensive irony.

    While I do not look for promiscuous women it is the norm for most college girls to do the hookup thing. I had a LTR with a girl who hard a N>10 but was honest with herself about what behaviors she needs to exhibit and avoid to combat it’s effects – I.E. minimizing Girls night out at the bars, not green-lighting guys for attention, keeping in touch with ex’s etc. Ultimately we were incompatible for other reasons but if she’d had gone overboard with a HTG strategy I’d never invested anything in her. It would be a constant insulting reminder that she gave it away easy in the past but not with me. Hmmft.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sundance

      Does your “withhold sex” advice apply to women who’ve had lots of partners? My observation is that many chicks enjoy the hookup culture until they don’t.

      That’s a tricky subject around here, as males have no desire to be the first guy to wait for the “new and improved” discriminating female. Price discrimination really pisses them off. OTOH, from a female POV, withholding sex is always better than having casual sex, so “better late than never” applies here.

  • OffTheCuff

    Tough crowd.

    I’ve been socialized to do a lot of things. Despite a crazy night or two, I still raise my kids, send them to school, have a full-time job, three degrees, no debt other than my house, a legit music hobby, pay taxes, never have been arrested, save my pennies and lots of other good stuff.

    I don’t sponge off the system, do drugs, drop put, smoke weed all day, go to jail occasionally, and collect fake disability, like my brother. Unlike him, I also married the mother of my kids. Oh, and I’m not divorced, either, like my father…

  • Resident Comedian

    “Does your “withhold sex” advice apply to women who’ve had lots of partners? ”

    Depends on the man. If he’s the sort who would dump a woman who showed sexual interest, initiated sex, or didn’t put up some sort of resistance even if feigned, then she’s best to withhold a bit if she wants to keep him.

    “My observation is that many chicks enjoy the hookup culture until they don’t. Then they want to be a born-again virgin employing a HTG strategy. ”

    I highly doubt women of today are concerned with virginity. However they may be concerned about loosing a man they perceive to be a good catch.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @OTC

    Tough crowd.

    You’re normal, on all counts!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve been socialized to do a lot of things. Despite a crazy night or two, I still raise my kids, send them to school, have a full-time job, three degrees, no debt other than my house, a legit music hobby, pay taxes, never have been arrested, save my pennies and lots of other good stuff.

    I don’t sponge off the system, do drugs, drop put, smoke weed all day, go to jail occasionally, and collect fake disability, like my brother. Unlike him, I also married the mother of my kids. Oh, and I’m not divorced, either, like my father…
    OTC I don’t doubt you are an upright citizen never did but the theme at hand is that men can have the biological need to reproduce. If society fails to give them the means to attract a woman willing to help them fulfill this biological need. They might chose the other logical alternatives as long as they become affordable and available. You know like everything else in society. Infertile couples, Single mothers and homosexuals are doing it what would stop a man for doing so?
    Even if like Hope says he doesn’t necessarily might want to wake up 3 am in the morning to feed a baby, he could have a supportive family, using professionals to help you as young as 6 weeks for working mothers is not considered shameful either, again I think if only feelings of inadequacy are in the way we all know men don’t respond to feelings as women do, so is a matter of when not if, YMMV.

  • JP

    “You know like everything else in society. Infertile couples, Single mothers and homosexuals are doing it what would stop a man for doing so?”

    Uh, shouldn’t we be trying, as a society, to stop those things?

    I mean, there is either some sort of genetic error, environmental error, or cultural error in those particular line items you mention that we should be trying to eliminate.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, as a working mother I do not have the luxury of “night” care. I just tough it out and live on less sleep. There are no “professionals” that will get up at 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am, 6am all night long for a young baby.

    Being a single father is not “shamed,” and if anything it’s more respectable than single motherhood. When an unmarried man wants to be very involved in his kids’ lives, that is seen as more unusual than when he wants nothing to do with them. Most stories I read of single mothers have had the father disinterested in being a father. The biological drive there is spread the seed and move on.

    You said it yourself — what is stopping a man from doing surrogacy? But most men don’t want to and don’t actually become single fathers. That right there speaks volumes. More men would prefer to be “gene propagators” and donate to sperm banks than would actually have kids via surrogacy. It’s a calculated, rational move, not to mention primal. Women have the stronger drive for kids than men. So men let women do it. Just like women let men fight wars.

    And don’t give me the feminist line about women wanting to be on the frontlines. :P

  • Lokland

    “So I see there’s yet another thing that makes me an unusual male. I want babies.”

    This is a fairly new phenomenon.
    Men and women have always wanted kids though for very different reasons.

    ——

    As for fake wombs, theres a reason men who can’t or won’t find a woman to reproduce with them haven’t reproduced.
    I think we can all largely agree the single mom route has been less than beneficial for civilization.

  • OffTheCuff

    Of course lots men want to reproduce.

    What I’m saying is I really dont think men want it enough, for significant numbers of them to go it alone, like women do, if there are no women willing to be a mother. I don’t think even free eggs and artificial wombs would change that.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    I don’t think I have ever taken that MBTI test so I don’t really know how I get classified in there. However I can relate to the INTJ blab about silent filtering of men; once I have decided you’re in, you’re in. Now here is to hope I’ll pass the guy’s filter, usually not the easiest thing.
    I know I have personally used a mixed approach of teasing/mocking and caring at the same time. I’m clearly confused and confuse others, LOL. I don’t think it is actually being bitchy rather being on of the guys and railing guys, in all good humor though. It is always the guys I sense are the strongest that get that regime. If I sense a bit of sensitivity( in a classicly ‘weak’ way) in a guy, I definitely don’t engage in such banter; that also mean that I’m not attracted to you in any fashion and you’ll get the cozy treatment brothers and BFF get.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mireille

      I don’t think it is actually being bitchy rather being on of the guys and railing guys, in all good humor though. It is always the guys I sense are the strongest that get that regime.

      That was my approach as well. Negging is not just for high SMV women :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    There are no “professionals” that will get up at 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am, 6am all night long for a young baby.
    Yes there are. Expensive but you know demand and supply rules: http://www.nysun.com/parenting/phenomenon-of-baby-nurses/72688/

    You said it yourself — what is stopping a man from doing surrogacy? But most men don’t want to and don’t actually become single fathers.

    40,000 dollars is a lot of money, plus the Baby Nurse is 200 dollars a day more or less. If this become cheaper, and it will, I can see more men signing up for that. Again I can be wrong but I think this is in the same line that most advances. The first in-vitro baby was news in 1978 now there are so many that no one counts, single motherhood as well, the freezing your eggs thing was also controversial when it started yet now there is a group of women opting for that too. The idea that a 40 year old woman can just decide to get pregnant at 50 because she prioritizes other things is not taboo anymore.

    I think we can all largely agree the single mom route has been less than beneficial for civilization.
    And yet the number is still growing…

    People you know I stay at home with my baby and I wouldn’t have had a baby without a father in a million years + infinity+ God’s age.
    So I’m not advocating for this to become the norm. But this is not the only website I visit and chat with people. I have a lot of other types of people that are actually not opposed to this and are looking forward to details about it and this not manosphere sites, writers, bloggers, employment sites….Idle chat can take an interesting turn if you seem open and not judgemental. It might be a self selected group but it does exist, I’m just telling you that never use the word impossible specially when technology is part of the equation, as usual, YMMV.

  • Esau

    Sai at 28: “I wish there was an easy way to tell the difference between just curious guys and introverts who are already super-interested.”

    Here’s an old joke:

    Q: How can you tell when a computer programmer is an extrovert?
    A: When he talks to you, he looks at your shoes.

    In short, it’s in the little things.

  • Sundance

    @Resident Comedian “I highly doubt women of today are concerned with virginity. However they may be concerned about loosing a man they perceive to be a good catch.”

    Exactly. Of course, many women are only concerned about “losing a man” *after* they’ve had their fill. A small but not insignificant minority save themselves for a husband and i’m not talking virginity necessarily. Rather it’s the all too common double digits N by age 25. For eons men have known the damage “loose women” (lol) sustain from rampant hook-ups (which we find has a basis in fact and yes to an extend it affects men too).

    So the strategy I see is; hoop it up till after college then when you’ve had enough run the “good girl” script to land some hopefully unsuspecting dude who will stick around and maybe gun for a ring before you hit 30. Problem is it comes out. Not the exact number but it’s obvious after any amount of time.

    My last girlfriend was like this – started trying to take me to church even. After almost two years though I came to know about all her Long Distance ex-fk buddies (who still text as “friends”) on facebook, her email, in her phone, at her home town etc. No deleting these dudes, but oh my praise Jesus on Sunday.
    Evey one of her 4 roommate gals had similar stories and were trying to come off as born again virgins to their dudes (she’d tell me all about em).

    No future for a guy in those all too common circumstances. You’re just asking for it. Wish I have know at the start though, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.

    So I object to suggestions that a woman (mis)represent herself as “Hard To Get” when she wasn’t. It’s trickery and unless you’re just concerned with advantaging your gender to the harm of men, it’s dishonest.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Keep him guessing, never let him forget that other guys find you hot, i.e., you have options. Encourage attention from other men and flirt in front of him whenever possible. Keeping him in a perpetual state of jealousy will keep him focused on you.

    This.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Anacaona “40,000 dollars is a lot of money, plus the Baby Nurse is 200 dollars a day more or less. If this become cheaper, and it will, I can see more men signing up for that. Again I can be wrong but I think this is in the same line that most advances. The first in-vitro baby was news in 1978 now there are so many that no one counts, single motherhood as well, the freezing your eggs thing was also controversial when it started yet now there is a group of women opting for that too. The idea that a 40 year old woman can just decide to get pregnant at 50 because she prioritizes other things is not taboo anymore.”

    Oh, it’s not “taboo” in certain circles, but women do start feeling the pressure nowadays around 30 watching other women their age pair off and have babies. These procedures you mentioned (in vitro, egg freezing) are also very expensive, not covered by insurance and only a small amount of women try these and succeed. Most single mothers are not doing in vitro. It’s rich older couples or rich older women.

    As for men wanting to have a go at single fatherhood becoming common, I think much more common will be men opting out of fatherhood altogether.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/childfree

    “So I’m not advocating for this to become the norm.”

    But you’re saying it is becoming more normal and not speaking out against it? This is the same feminist line saying women can/should have babies alone. When a baby loses the mother or father young, it’s considered a tragedy. But when a baby is born to a single mother/father, it’s considered “common” now? I don’t see why we should speak of it in such generous terms here. If a woman came here and started saying “Men you better watch out, women don’t need you because of in vitro” she’d be laughed out of here. When a man comes here and start spouting “artificial womb” stuff, you’re actually supporting him?

  • Ion

    “Being a single father is not “shamed,” and if anything it’s more respectable than single motherhood. ”

    For good reason, imho. Single fatherhood produces WAY more productive, positive outcomes. http://www.warrenfarrell.com/articles.php?id=6

    If single moms produced great kids, I’d be all in favor for single motherhood. But it doesn’t. It produces spoiled/entitled male offspring and daughters who have a hard time loving.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Sassy, I think you already pretty much show how choosy you are in most of your conversations. Guys probably know your filters don’t let in too many guys, and if he is the chosen one he would be rather happy.

    Yeah, but my natural demeanor tends to be very aloof. I don’t want to seem unapproachable, even though I know that I come across that way. I have filters, but I think that my appearance and demeanor can make men afraid or hesitant to approach me. I’ve had men thank me profusely for “being willing to talk to them”. That lets me know that I naturally appear to “play hard to get” even though I may not necessarily try to. I don’t want to deter well-meaning men.

  • Sassy6519

    As an aside, I can’t even deal with men right now. Whenever I think about dating, I get a distinct feeling of revulsion. I shall continue my dating sabbatical until the feeling subsides. Until then, I will focus on trying not to make such crappy pottery pieces in my pottery class. I suck at making things on a potter’s wheel, so I need all the practice I can get.

  • Ion

    “I would like to add that with daycare and female relatives and friends this is not an one person job I doubt it has ever been. Not even single working mothers do it all without help.”

    I agree with this part of what you’re saying, I’ve noticed in the US motherhood is quickly becoming a “one person job”. You do not need wet nurses, doctors, baby sitters, and $17 an hour nannys when you live in a community where family is very much valued and a support system. In my dad’s home country, it was common for women in a family to try and sync up when they had kids occasionally, so two mothers breastfeeding in the event that one had to work in the fields, etc., was common even 40 years ago. Plus, you had sisters, grandmother (who was 45yrs old not 75), etc., to help take care of offspring because they all lived close by. I think its a cryings shame that in the US “no one can tell me how to raise my baby” type individualism has left new moms isolated. Family is not as important here too.

    Of course not saying I’m telling people how to raise anyone, just think much can be learned if instead of people focusing on media about which moms make ideal mothers/valuable offprings (the wealthy ones who rely on epidurals, day cares and strollers of course) I’d look at a variety of cultures and how they do things. For example, I’ve heard that African babies learn to walk earlier because women carry the child on their back so baby is looking at moms feet all day, instead of far away in a stroller (which is considered impersonal in many cultures and kind of messed up to the infant). There’s also stuff like this http://www.incultureparent.com/2010/12/why-african-babies-dont-cry/ highly recommend that site btw.

    Wasn’t there a study that came out recently saying baby formula is basically sugar, and like giving your baby a milkshake every single day? Of course women who have no other choice are OK, but probably not recommended (which is really sad now, because working mothers, unless they are wealthy enough to have their own office cannot really breastfeed. Plus it’s naughty to pump in public?). Idk

  • Sundance

    @Susan “Price discrimination really pisses them off.”

    At least in my case, misrepresentation pisses me off (and I suspect other men too). By price I assume you mean the price of first time Sex. Applied to my question its the Post-hookup female repricing intimacy by waiting and being more discriminant and acting in ways more apt to gain commitment from a man.

    Very good advice for women, but I’d add it should be a strategy from the beginning. If she had poor impulse control before though it really is a waste of everyone’s time for her to act the part afterward. Oh well I guess I can’t blame them for trying. But word is out.

    I’d advocate introspection and honesty. I wouldn’t care so much if a person recognized their damaging prior behavior (both men and women) and made conscious effort to avoid it. It gives me a basis for confidence versus a slow recognition that I’ve been duped. Often though a girl still keeps a toe in familiar waters while feigning innocence based on her new-found persona. Like I mention earlier- a complete waste of time for everyone.

    Oh well, knowledge is power.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    But you’re saying it is becoming more normal and not speaking out against it? This is the same feminist line saying women can/should have babies alone. When a baby loses the mother or father young, it’s considered a tragedy. But when a baby is born to a single mother/father, it’s considered “common” now? I don’t see why we should speak of it in such generous terms here. If a woman came here and started saying “Men you better watch out, women don’t need you because of in vitro” she’d be laughed out of here. When a man comes here and start spouting “artificial womb” stuff, you’re actually supporting him?
    I’m not supporting him. I’m very conservative in family issues but that doesn’t make anyone stop divorcing, having kids out of wedlock, waiting too much time to have kids and so on.
    I though I didn’t need to repeat my judgmental crap all the time to prove that I don’t support this things.
    Trust me if you could hear what I think about single parenthood you won’t be thinking of me as being generous. But since a part of our audience are probably offspring/friends/relatives of single mothers or are not opposed to having kids out of wedlock being too harsh wouldn’t be productive will it?
    In HUS people had been denying this will happen when I have been seeing this being discussed as an alternative elsewhere with no connection to MRA’s more among people that are very educated about science, also infertility groups have some single males inquiring about their chances and information about the costs. I’m just informing this is not dominated by us at all, and that sooner than later it will happen, that is all.
    Is another nail in the coffin of western civilization but is not an imaginary nail is getting melted as we speak, YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, fair enough. I still disagree about the part where you say men will sign up for it en masse. My husband still pays more attention to his hobbies than to our boy, and he is even someone who wanted kids.

    Ion, I agree with you about childrearing in other cultures. I grew up in a developing country and saw it firsthand. But at the same time I ate lead paint chips, contracted very bad infections and almost lost an eye, so it’s not all glorious. :P

    I am still grateful to have what I have in America, but that could be because I am in the “middle class.” Sure, family lives farther away, but sometimes the trade-off of being close to family is just not worth it. My mother is narcissistic and would drive me insane. That kind of added stress would be much worse.

    Also, you don’t need an office to continue feeding the baby. It’s legally required for workplaces to give women a place to pump. My work provides a hospital grade pump and all equipment for free, and the insurance totally covers a personal pump. So our boy has never had formula. We also don’t have a stroller.

    It is true though. Women everywhere have always needed help to take care of young babies, and that help generally comes in the form of other women. My husband who lived in Africa for two years said the men never do anything childcare-related. At least he changes diapers, comforts our boy and plays with him.

    Also about the article you linked, co-sleeping can be dangerous. I know a mother who killed her newborn baby rolling on top, and she really believed in co-sleeping and did it with her older toddler. I noticed the author of that article never talked about the father either. Fathers are extremely important!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Anacaona, fair enough. I still disagree about the part where you say men will sign up for it en masse. My husband still pays more attention to his hobbies than to our boy, and he is even someone who wanted kids.
    Masse? Probably not. But we already have a shortage of men, if we take in account the “man up articles” popping everywere this will be another factor to affect single women too.
    The key is that women like the ability to choose single motherhood and be celebrated for it *barf* no being forced into single motherhood because the sexy men don’t want to marry them. If you add the unsexy ones don’t needing them…Well things are going to be really interesting at least for me to observe. But I’m too curious for my own good.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    There’s also stuff like this http://www.incultureparent.com/2010/12/why-african-babies-dont-cry/ highly recommend that site btw.

    Thank you! I was worried about not letting William cry because my mom told me that ‘it develops their lungs’ I really can’t let him cry it breaks my heart. So I had been doing all those things she recommend, reading his cues I know how to calm him before he starts crying. And everyone always tell me how good of a baby he is, so it seems to have worked in her and my case. :)

  • SayWhaat

    I am still grateful to have what I have in America, but that could be because I am in the “middle class.” Sure, family lives farther away, but sometimes the trade-off of being close to family is just not worth it. My mother is narcissistic and would drive me insane. That kind of added stress would be much worse.

    I don’t have much to say in terms of child-rearing, but I think that I can agree with this. Having a family close by to help is only useful in the event that you have a close relationship with said family.

    By the way, I’ve been reading up on narcissism and while I don’t know if my mother has full-blown NPD, I recognize *a lot* of the traits from her behavior. Knowing that has been really helpful in evaluating my own behavior and realizing what I need to look out for when dating. The last thing I want is to find myself married to someone who can never be pleased with anything I do for him. : /

  • Californio

    I wanted to reproduce and knew it at age 15. That, and Catholic school, kept my pre-marital sex down down down. But now I can see that my desire for children was also influenced by family and culture – you don’t stay pale and beautiful and Hispanic in the new world for 400 years by accident. Oh, and vanity also plays a part as well. Now 48, divorced and with accomplished, smart beautiful aryan super-children – I am much more relaxed about dating. (and yes, super children come in all racial/ethnic permutations) But everything in the main post rings true – low count, high quality women who like me alone (and how could they not?) have a chance – “easy access” women only earn my polite scorn.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “But we already have a shortage of men, if we take in account the “man up articles” popping everywere this will be another factor to affect single women too.”

    This will be the effect that is exaggerated by artificial wombs.
    We can already see that some segment of women are going the single mom route as preferred to being paired with a partner.

    That could be due to not liking their SMV peers or career aspirations.

    This leaves a lot of the lower SMV guys out in the dust.

    If artificial wombs come in, the effect will be the same. The lowest of the women who would have gotten married in previous generations will remain single (with or without children.)

    ——-

    On another note, a child from a super hot women without help might seem like a better idea than children from an average or below average women with help in raising (similar to what single moms do now).

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    For a J (judgement) guy, hard to get really screws him up because as a judgment guy, he learns to trust it implicitly. What will happen if you play too hard to get, is he will withdraw in question of his own judgement. Not good.

    I can agree with this, right up until I realized that many women are stupid and rely on this HTG strategy.
    Once you realize what’s going on, you can go about the harder task of trying to re-frame your interactions.
    It also helps that I am irrationally confident, so I have a default mind-set that everyone wants to talk to me unless they are exhibiting very obvious signals that they do NOT want to talk, period. That initial awkwardness is no longer an obstacle for me, it’s just another step in the process, no different from putting one foot in front of the other.
    A girl playing aggressively HTG? Fuck that shit. It’s exhausting, evne if you CAN manage it

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Lokland
    It will be interesting to see how this will play up in the long run. Probably more social segregation.

  • tilikum

    Ana,

    its already starting.

    Major cultural shift in the species afoot that will undoubtedly lead to alot of despair for many, and a realignment to natural order. Pick a very good man now.

  • Ion

    “I am still grateful to have what I have in America, but that could be because I am in the “middle class.””

    Me too, but I think things can be better too. I.E. I don’t hold with the belief that one culture is absolutely positive, and we should do everything it says, and the other is absolutely negative, and we should avoid their practices entirely.

    @ Ana,

    “Thank you! I was worried about not letting William cry because my mom told me that ‘it develops their lungs’”

    Seems to be pretty common info lately that this is bad for the baby, I cannot find the article I was looking for on this, but here’s another really good one. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out

    “behaviorists then and now encourage parents to condition the baby to expect needs NOT to be met on demand, whether feeding or comforting. It’s assumed that the adults should ‘be in charge’ of the relationship. Certainly this might foster a child that doesn’t ask for as much help and attention (withdrawing into depression and going into stasis or even wasting away) but it is more likely to foster a whiney, unhappy, aggressive and/or demanding child, one who has learned that one must scream to get needs met.”

    lolz

  • Resident Comedian

    Screw Everyone: Sleeping My Way To Monogamy
    by Ophira Eisenberg

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16000324-screw-everyone

  • INTJ

    This paper on monogamy is quite an interesting read: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1589/657.full.pdf

  • J

    @Sassy

    I just took a good look at your new pic. You have amazing bone structure. And between your bone structure and complexion, you’ll probably be young looking as an older woman. (Weird complement, I know, but you think about this stuff when you are middle-aged.)

  • J

    I’m married to an introvert…. It’s a wonder we ever got together, and it required each of us essentially jumping off a cliff.

    Actually the MBTI people tend to want to pair Is with Es. For example, “the INTP’s natural partner is the ENTJ, or the ESTJ.”

    http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP_rel.html

    DH and I are both introverts and fairly self-contained. That neither of us will make the first move can be a problem.

  • J

    Problem with hard to get, or some version of giving somebody a hard time getting closer is…what is the trouble going to get him/her?

    There’s a healthy middle ground between hard to get and doormat. The challenge is to find it.

  • J

    I had zero interest in kids until… eh, a few weeks after my child was already born. For the first few days I remember thinking “who the hell is this?” Then it was – OH! This is MY KID!

    Not so unusual. The day after my son was born, after I had had a bunch of infertility surgery and a couple of miscarriages, I asked DH, “Don;t you just love the baby?” He answered, “I don’t know. I mean, I hardly know him, J.” I could have killed him. Of course, he loves the boys enormously, but it too a while to click. And had we never had kids, he’d have been OK. I would not have.

  • J

    @Ion and Ana

    I never let my kids cry for protracted periods of time because, first, I think it destroys trust and, second, I CAN NOT STAND the sound of kids crying. The evolutionary reason that it’s such a nerve-racking sound it to get adults off their butts to fix the problem.

    Ana, it sounds like you are very attuned to William and that IMNSHO is an excellent thing.

    @Hope

    I’m so sorry about the child that died as a result of co-sleeping. My sons spent their first 8 months in a bassinet at the side our bed, but I often fell asleep with them while they nursed. I took a lot of precautions with loose bedding, etc. and kept them on my side of the bed because I was fearful of DH rolling on to them. I never had that fear about myself though.

  • J

    @Say Whaat

    By the way, I’ve been reading up on narcissism and while I don’t know if my mother has full-blown NPD, I recognize *a lot* of the traits from her behavior. Knowing that has been really helpful in evaluating my own behavior and realizing what I need to look out for when dating. The last thing I want is to find myself married to someone who can never be pleased with anything I do for him. : /

    That is a real ace-in-the-hole for you. Children of narcissitic parents often marry narcissists.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    the 4 hard-to-get stategies would lead to my immediate disinterest. the “asshole” switch will come on.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And had we never had kids, he’d have been OK. I would not have.
    Hubby would had wanted to adopt, in fact he still is open to the possibility if having a second carries a problem. I can see myself being like a man in that situation and needing time to think of him/her as mine. A mix of biological reasons, bad experiences with adopted children from friends, but also in my country the adoptive mothers ALWAYS regret giving up their kids and try to win them back after they are older. Had you tried to compete with a woman that offers endless fun, candy and no discipline? Home-wrecker carries a double meaning in my country. I don’t think I could ever sleep well thinking one day another woman will want my baby.

    The evolutionary reason that it’s such a nerve-racking sound it to get adults off their butts to fix the problem.

    That makes sense. But a problem with this adaptation is that some adults get so upset that they might abandon the babies too. I read about a mother that pretty much closed the door of the baby room and left him alone for the night because she couldn’t stand the crying. She claims he is a fine smart kid now but I truly hope most adults didn’t evolved that level of ‘discomfort’ for the babies screams.

    Ana, it sounds like you are very attuned to William and that IMNSHO is an excellent thing.

    I hope so I had gotten the ‘you need a break’ talk from a couple of ‘friends’ because I’m with him all the time and breastfeed him, change him,talk, play or pick him up right on his cue . I do get worry but then I remember that he is 5 months old hard to spoil him at this age. Still it has become a “I’m not tired or bored I enjoy spending time with him for real and I’m not much of party girl anyway” a couple of times. Those are the times I wish I was home my people will understand. :(

    I’m so sorry about the child that died as a result of co-sleeping. My sons spent their first 8 months in a bassinet at the side our bed, but I often fell asleep with them while they nursed. I took a lot of precautions with loose bedding, etc. and kept them on my side of the bed because I was fearful of DH rolling on to them. I never had that fear about myself though.
    I co-slept as a baby, then as a toddler with my baby brother and we didn’t moved to a bed of our own till my mother was heavily pregnant with the third kid. The thing is that for co-sleeping to be safe.
    The woman has to be not too tired, drunk, or being an uneasy sleeper, if she is used to share the bed (I always shared the bed with my sister growing up I sleep and usually wake up in the exact same position if I get uncomfortable in the middle of the night I wake up and I mean full look first, change positions later since I’m used to have another body to mind) and the bed being safe. Most First World beds are for adults only thus more dangerous. For example in my culture sheets are breathable and only as needed, we don’t use frames just the box spring and the bed goes in a corner so the baby has two solid walls with no space to fall out or stick head in it. Then the mother sleeps next to the baby, then the father makes a second barrier of protection. That was pretty much everyone I grew up with. That being said now that is a sign of status in my country to be able to afford a crib and a room for your kid I would think most women might lose their sensitivity to their babies and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone without at least 95% of the requisites listed above.
    Heck I only do it occasionally, he has a sidecar my hubby built, and mostly co-nap for a few minutes after I make sure the bed is 100% safe and I curve my body in half a moon around the baby using my arms too so it makes it impossible for me to roll over or to flop a hand on top of him. So I think is doable but you need to know what you are doing and if you are used to flip around the bed is better not to trust you will stop since our bodies are always trying to find a way to go back to our normal sleeping position.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    I just took a good look at your new pic. You have amazing bone structure. And between your bone structure and complexion, you’ll probably be young looking as an older woman. (Weird complement, I know, but you think about this stuff when you are middle-aged.)

    Thank you J!

    I really hope that I age well. I’m doing my best to take care of my skin now in order to ease that process. The best defense is a good offense, or so the saying goes. I wear SPF everyday, and I wear an anti-oxidant collagen boosting serum at night. I can only hope to treat a man as nicely as I treat my own skin. :D

  • Ion

    “Children of narcissitic parents often marry narcissists.”

    :-( take it back.

  • Ion

    “You have amazing bone structure. And between your bone structure and complexion, you’ll probably be young looking as an older woman. ”

    I second. Reminds me of my mom who is a little younger than my stepdad (by 7 years), however he’s blond and blue eyed, it looks like he’s robbing the craddle big time, people guess they’re 40 years apart. I don’t have that amazing bone structure though, and people always assume me and my mom are sisters (which is really insane considering she’s 35 yrs older than I am). lolz.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    SayWhaat, yeah “nothing is ever good enough” seems to be a common Asian parent trait. But it can be a thin line before it crosses into the pathological area. In my mother’s case, she thought nothing of telling me she would take our son to China for years. When I asked her “what about me?” she actually said “the baby doesn’t need you.” WTF?!

    Anacaona, yeah I am a deep sleeper and don’t have half the things you listed. I am too paranoid about safety things. I know my husband didn’t cosleep, and his mother worked full-time. He also had colic, so he cried for hours during the day, and there was nothing my MIL could do. He turned out fine. :P Luckily, so far Aidan has not had colic and is a generally happy baby.

  • Jesse

    As they say in certain corners of the Internet, good poast. I have very, very low tolerance for this kind of power game BS.

    Sounds like hard-to-get may just be a misnomer for ‘good catch.’

    Misc. thoughts:

    I would’ve thought men would tease (good-naturedly) more than women. Seems natural to me.

    I think a sincerely interested woman would bend over backwards to make it clear she only had platonic feelings for any other man.

    I know treating others like shit was listed under men, but to me this is a big deal. I subscribe to the notion that how one treats those beneath him- or herself is very revealing. I like a little bit of sass and belief that she is special, but a pretentious manner is a huge negative to me. If you’re too good to say thank you to people… no.

    Also, I’m not a pretend asshole. I’m the genuine article. Ha ha…

  • J

    Hubby would had wanted to adopt, in fact he still is open to the possibility if having a second carries a problem.

    Both DH and I were reluctant to adopt. I had a bad experience with an adopted cousin, feared a bio-mom suing to get her child back, and worked with a lot of adopted children who were very damaged by maternal drug use. DH had seen many foreign adoptions fall apart in the course of doing his job at that time.

    But a problem with this adaptation is that some adults get so upset that they might abandon the babies too.

    Exactly. That and worse happens. Occasionally, people will kill a child who can’t stop crying.

    I hope so I had gotten the ‘you need a break’ talk from a couple of ‘friends’ because I’m with him all the time and breastfeed him, change him,talk, play or pick him up right on his cue.

    Meh, you’ll know when you are too tired and you’ll take a break.

    I do get worry but then I remember that he is 5 months old hard to spoil him at this age.

    Too young t formulate a manpulative intent.

    Those are the times I wish I was home my people will understand.

    Try Le Leche League or an attachment parent group.

    The thing is that for co-sleeping to be safe…. The woman has to be not too tired, drunk, or being an uneasy sleeper, if she is used to share the bed (I always shared the bed with my sister growing up So I think is doable but you need to know what you are doing and if you are used to flip around the bed is better not to trust you will stop since our bodies are always trying to find a way to go back to our normal sleeping position.

    Agreed. I did a lot of similar things.

  • J

    @Sassy

    You have great cheekbones; they’ll hold the rest of your face up.

    @Ion

    Sorry, maybe knowing that it’s a possibility is a forewarning for you.

    @Hope

    Different things work for different families.

  • J

    In my mother’s case, she thought nothing of telling me she would take our son to China for years. When I asked her “what about me?” she actually said “the baby doesn’t need you.” WTF?!

    WTF, indeed! That’s really, really crazy, totally insensitive to Aiden’s needs and extremely disrespectful to you.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Both DH and I were reluctant to adopt. I had a bad experience with an adopted cousin, feared a bio-mom suing to get her child back, and worked with a lot of adopted children who were very damaged by maternal drug use. DH had seen many foreign adoptions fall apart in the course of doing his job at that time.
    I think that is the difference some people that never had heard of bad adopting experiences think is a walk in the park. He has no idea what the process entails aside from everything that can wrong the prices and the wait time is part of it..

    Exactly. That and worse happens. Occasionally, people will kill a child who can’t stop crying.
    Yeah when I got the doctors pregnancy guide they did had a warning about not shaking the baby I was like “Who would shake a baby?” Babies cries is the only way they have to communicate” Sadly it seems it happens a lot here. Say what you like about Dominicans but baby shakers we are not.

    Meh, you’ll know when you are too tired and you’ll take a break.

    Yeah but I don’t think anyone believes me. Oh well I just need remember to say that “I’ll call you when I need a break thank you for the offer”

    Too young t formulate a manpulative intent.</i.
    I know, although sometimes I swear William puts things on his mouth just to make me jump. :)

    Try Le Leche League or an attachment parent group.

    Thank you, will do. :)

    Agreed. I did a lot of similar things.

    Good obviously it worked in your case and my mother’s case. :)

    In my mother’s case, she thought nothing of telling me she would take our son to China for years. When I asked her “what about me?” she actually said “the baby doesn’t need you.” WTF?!

    Not as bad with me but my mother did told me that I should get pregnant while I was waiting for the paperwork and leave the baby with her while I settled down with my husband in USA. WTF mother! Our family motto growing up was: “You make it, you push it, you raise it” not about to change any time soon. She only did it once.

  • J

    I think that is the difference some people that never had heard of bad adopting experiences think is a walk in the park. He has no idea what the process entails aside from everything that can wrong the prices and the wait time is part of it.

    it’s a nice thing to do if you can do it, but it can really be a rough road. I’ve seen people wait years only to have the rug pulled out from under them.

    Yeah when I got the doctors pregnancy guide they did had a warning about not shaking the baby I was like “Who would shake a baby?”

    Sadly many people do. When I had #2 son, a fresh-out-of-college social worker came to my room to ask how I planned to discipine my son. I had had a rough time physically and, as a result, little patience with her, but it obviously was her job to keep prevent abuse if newborns.

    Yeah but I don’t think anyone believes me. Oh well I just need remember to say that “I’ll call you when I need a break thank you for the offer”

    Maybe they just want to come over and play with William.

    I know, although sometimes I swear William puts things on his mouth just to make me jump.

    LOL. Wait till he starts walking.

    Not as bad with me but my mother did told me that I should get pregnant while I was waiting for the paperwork and leave the baby with her while I settled down with my husband in USA.

    Maybe wanting to take the new baby is an irrestible urge. I know that I wanted my mom and MIL to respect my boundaries–not that anyone did. My MIL used to call DH up at work to tell him what a horrible, incompetent mother I was.

  • Valentin

    But we already have a shortage of men…

    Not really: there’s just a shortage of men on the market since it has no value or reward to them.

  • angelguy

    What point does one realize HTG may just be someone not interested in you?

    Be curious to hear what some of the ladies say.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @angelguy

      What point does one realize HTG may just be someone not interested in you?

      Be curious to hear what some of the ladies say.

      That’s a pet peeve of many women. They’re not playing hard to get, their messages of rejection are honest. I also came across some posts where women blame HTG strategies for leading to men believing that “no means yes.” Clearly, sexual assault can occur if men assume women are being coy when they are rejecting sexual escalation.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    it’s a nice thing to do if you can do it, but it can really be a rough road. I’ve seen people wait years only to have the rug pulled out from under them.
    You see I wouldn’t be able to stand that a lot. I will feel that I most be a terrible prospect for a mother if trained professionals couldn’t give me the baby as soon as I wanted to. I’m glad that I never had to go that route it will had destroy me. I’m not good at all with waiting indefinite time specially for something I want.

    Sadly many people do. When I had #2 son, a fresh-out-of-college social worker came to my room to ask how I planned to discipine my son. I had had a rough time physically and, as a result, little patience with her, but it obviously was her job to keep prevent abuse if newborns.
    Yeah I read about those and i figured out if they had a hotline for you to call when you are frustrated it most happen often tough to make it a problem. Really sad.

    Maybe they just want to come over and play with William.

    I though that too.

    LOL. Wait till he starts walking.

    Oh yeah this one is going to become a search, find, destroy machine in no time.

    Maybe wanting to take the new baby is an irrestible urge. I know that I wanted my mom and MIL to respect my boundaries–not that anyone did. My MIL used to call DH up at work to tell him what a horrible, incompetent mother I was.
    Terrible thing from your MIL to say. Good thing your hubby did
    I do think we went from How many babies I need? Because in agrarian societies the more babies the more land you got assigned, to How many babies I want? to How many babies I can afford? So some women probably didn’t had as many babies as they would had liked so the grand-kids become the last chance to have another baby.
    My mother wanted her last kid to be twins so she wanted 5 kids instead of 4 mostly because Daddy wanted 2 and he agree to 4 pregnancies so the deal was done at that point. My guess is that she though she could have my son as replacement for that filth child she never had. Sorry mom I love you but I’m already in reduced number of kids myself.
    I do hope I don’t do the same to any daughter or daughter in love I might have.

  • angelguy

    “That’s a pet peeve of many women. They’re not playing hard to get, their messages of rejection are honest. I also came across some posts where women blame HTG strategies for leading to men believing that “no means yes.” Clearly, sexual assault can occur if men assume women are being coy when they are rejecting sexual escalation.”

    As a man, I have learned over the years to be careful about showing my interest in women. This is not a HTG, but protection against being misread.

    I think more Men have to learn how to filter what is genuine interest, and what is being a tease. While NAWALT, one can’t be too careful.

  • Cee

    Hmm.. I am dating a guy who I feel has definitely good character in that he is a kind person and is often going out of his way to help and be compassionate to others. I’ve detected nothing that makes me think he’s a player.

    However, he found himself falling for me rather quickly and said that he really didn’t expect to meet someone like myself at this point in my life and he’s scared he may shut down as he’s prioritizing other things in his life and is not seeking to be in a relationship at this time.

    I made my intentions of being a relationship well-known since even before he asked me on our first date so my story has remained the same. But when he made that statement, I told him that we are still very much just learning about each other and no one is asking anyone to know what they want to do in the next 10 years, but in the meantime I feel its best to be open to any and all possibilities. He agreed. But ever since then, he’s grown a bit distant with me and I am not exactly sure of what to do.

    It’s clear to me he wants his space, so I’ll give him that and more. But I am wondering if I should even continue to consider him as a prospect if he’s pulling back like this. It makes me rather uncomfortable and frustrated because I know he finds me very attractive and I know he finds me to be a lovely girl. It makes me upset that he is essentially going out of his way to not engage with me as much for fear of falling too deeply.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cee

      I’m sorry to hear that, it sounds like the timing is off. You are doing exactly the right things – you do not want to be in a position of trying to convince him that a relationship with you would improve his life, despite his misgivings. Clearly, the ball is in his court. I suggest you live your life as fully as you can, and do everything in your power to avoid a mindset of waiting for his decision. It’s possible he will realize what he’s missing and reconnect. In the meantime, you should take his cues at face value.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ref HTG and coy: Coy has a long history. It’s not a joke. It’s sometimes a filter for how much the guy wants the woman, whether he has guts to take a risk.
    Years ago, when the Gray planet book came out, I tried to get it from the library. Six copies, seventy-six holds ahead of me. So I got a couple of books a week in the general area. Half weren’t worth reading, some would make your teeth hurt. But the idea that a real man doesn’t take no, and reaps the rewards of taking the risk, was not universally condemned, either by men or women writers. There was even a C&W song about it, which the artist pulled after the Wm. French Smith rape trial brought the subject up.
    HTG, coy, real man doesn’t take no, are all operating simultaneously.
    If I had my way, any woman who boasted about coy or leading a guy on with nomeanskeeptrying ought to be thoroughly shamed by her female friends, who are the ones at risk from guys who think, have been trained to think, this is the way things are.

  • szopen

    @anacaona, hope, offthecut
    I think Anacaona may be at least partially right. For once, it was me, not my wife, who really wanted to have our first child. For years I hated children and I cherished my freedom from having to raise one, but then I visited a home of my friend, who has cheerful, something like two-years old son. And – you alphas may start to laugh at me – I suddenly felt that I want my own child too.

    And of course, when you have a child, nothing beats the feeling you get when you are walking with her/his little paw in your hand, knowing that your child loves you and trusts you unconditionally.

    So it could be that at least for guys like me, single fatherhood would be an option :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And of course, when you have a child, nothing beats the feeling you get when you are walking with her/his little paw in your hand, knowing that your child loves you and trusts you unconditionally.

      This gave me a powerful feeling in the pit of my stomach. How I miss those days! How I want a grandchild!

  • Laurel

    This is really painful for me to read, I lost a man I really cared about to another woman, and now I realize it was almost certainly because I wasn’t hard enough to get. I’m not talking about sex.

    Robert met “Danielle” in college, she didn’t make him wait long for sex, only a couple of weeks. But the relationship was very stormy and drama-filled, several times she ditched him but then wanted him back.

    Finally she ditched him again and he moved to another city, where he met me. We started having sex after about a month, so in that way I wa harder to get than “Danielle” had been. (He told me he was definitely done with her.) I was a great girlfriend, not to pat myself on the back too much, no drama, loyal, easy to live with, cooked, made my own money and shared it.

    You know what happened next, don’t you? “Danielle” couldn’t stand us being together, she had evidently thought Robert would wait around for her forever. She came to our city, seduced him, got him to agree with them living together and to break off with me. They are married now, still with a lot of drama from what I hear.

    Now maybe he picked her because she was better looing than me (though that’s not what people say), or some other good reason. But I really think it’s because I was guaranteed, fish in the barrel, whereas she was always uncertain so getting her was more of a challenga and an acoomplishment for him. Hope he’s happy with what he got; no I really don’t want to be like that, I really DO want him to be happy.

    Anyhow, nothing to be done about it all now, probably really no point in writing about it but wanted to anyway. Thanks for listening.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Laurel

      I’m so sorry that happened to you. I think that some people have a high need for drama – the adrenalin and dopamine-filled experiences of conflict followed by passionate reconciliation. This claim tends to be made more about women, but let’s face it – their partners are going along for the ride and in many cases they seek out this dynamic.

      It doesn’t make for healthy or lasting relationships, and I’m not surprised to hear that they’re still having drama even after marrying. It’s hard to imagine a couple like that having a fulfilling or lasting marriage.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And of course, when you have a child, nothing beats the feeling you get when you are walking with her/his little paw in your hand, knowing that your child loves you and trusts you unconditionally.
    Yeah those eyes staring at me with adoration. It makes me want to be the best mother of the world so I can live up to all the love my baby feels for me, keeping safe and happy forever. There are no words.

    So it could be that at least for guys like me, single fatherhood would be an option
    Like I said before I’m not trying to endorse single parenthood male or female I’m just commenting on the fact that is happening and it was only logical if you think on how society is working at this point, YMMV.

  • Jackie

    Hey Laurel,

    I’m really sorry to hear you had that experience. :( I do think there is worth in understanding the experience, though. It sounds to me like you dodged a bullet!

    Imagine if you had continued in a relationship with a drama llama: Someone who is deliberately courting a kind of emotional whiplash. I would think that kind of relationship would get really old *fast*. It would be hellish to raise children in the environment. :(

    Now you are free to find someone much better than him and in time your heart will heal. GL Laurel, I wish you the best!

  • Sam

    Laurel (and others),

    This is super long, sorry.

    I don’t really feel sorry for you for loosing him because you really did dodge a bullet, some people just crave that emotional intensity, and you don’t want to have to entertain that for a lifetime. Darn it if it isn’t difficult having put so much on the line in the process, though, and for that I wish you resilience. Even if you are be a notch or two below that other girl looks wise (probably not), any man who knows and wants a quality gal will pay little mind to the difference because physical attractiveness isn’t the only trigger for men, at least not all men. There are limits to that for sure, but to a decent guy its as they say, a good woman is worth her weight in gold, but a bad woman isn’t worth a bullet (even when they were cheap). Rest assured, I and many other men I know want a low maintenance, loyal, giving lady, and I’ll be darned if I ever get bored of not having to constantly monitor and deal with a loose cannon. You sound like a good one, though, his loss. Its all been said on here before, but I will add that, for me, nine out of ten 9s and 10s become a 5 or less very shortly after opening their mouth. (largley men’s fault, btw)

    It’s true that a girl being selectively easy to get for me, hard to get for everyone else is the most appealing prospect. Also I think people largely don’t really appreciate what they don’t have to work for. So I think you did it right – easy to get, hard to fuck. (ETG/HTF)

    I say don’t be afraid to make us suckers wait. I go a long time between meeting quality girls I get along with, and once I’ve met a good prospect, whats another few months. Really, if her history seemed to be consistent, i.e. no price discrimination, longer than that really wouldn’t be a deal breaker either (probably more a deal maker).

    Also filter, filter, filter, not sure how you could have filtered for that particular guy, seems he stuck around for you, but use your best judgement and intuition regarding how you felt about him and any red flags you saw in the time you were together. Do you best to learn from them. As Susan’s recent post with the quadrant of possibilities showed, better safe than sorry. A potential filter I suggest is to drop any guy who ever pressures for sex. Difficult in the current SMP, I know, because thats the reason the most attractive women express loneliness and sleep with the least men, the guys aren’t willing to commit and just go get some from less attractive women – but hey its all about your values and what you want – of course my mantra is essentially, don’t settle, but we all have our own decisions to make and have to try to maintain a reasonable balance of values, sanity, and happiness.

    Convenient to that suggested filter, my approach is to never pressure or even bring up sex, I let the woman do that. When she is comfortable and ready she will let me know, won’t you? Yup. Its tricky to execute properly, though, too, because you all love that dominance in escalation so doggone much. I have definitely felt the respect slipping away when I didn’t escalate in a situation where it could have been, so I (try) skirting that issue by avoiding any situations where there might be opportunity for anything sexual to possibly go down (no pun intended). No hangouts back at either place, limited time alone in secluded areas, etc., try to keep it all public early on. Sounds a little funny but it has other benefits as well, such as filtering women (do I really want a girl who looses respect for me for not escalating sexually early in dating, uuuummm, not 100% yet but I’m leaning toward no. Trust me, when the time is right, when you trust me and you let me know that, you will get whats coming to you and then some – pun sorta intended -), women I’ve just met and who are total strangers. Anyone see the program about the linebacker who had a full ride to college but went to jail for 10 years instead because of a false rape accusation? Hell to the yeah!! Lets avoid that BS. Sorry ladies, I don’t trust you any more than you trust me.

    And isn’t a man who pressures or begs for sex lacking control and certainly weak? Of course, but you also have to avoid those alone times where a man that didn’t pressure or beg wouldn’t have to ask and could simply escalate (the way you love it so much). From where I mentioned about attraction/respect slipping due to my not escalating, and what all we read out there about needing to be the man and take charge, escalate, be decisive, and all that crap, being alone together = green light. Proceed as you see fit. How about this for a HTG strategy (really more ETG/HTF): Approaching your place at the end of the night, but before you get to the door and are faced with that awkward moment, keep it simple, express your enjoyment of the evening succinctly “I had a great time tonight and hope we can do it again soon” or “You did all right, sport, call me,” Give em a good smooch on the lips to get the message across, and scamper off into your place all in one fell swoop (don’t rush, though) before he can collect himself, and leave him to drool and wonder what magical creature he’s just encountered. I’d be all over that! If you really want to be playful and get the message across (maybe more appropriate once you have some dates together), give ‘em a little butt grab before you scamper off. In this way you are being easy to get by doing the escalating, letting him know he’s in, but by being in control of the escalation and level of it, playing hard to get by keeping it all fairly tame.

    If the match is good, you are a catch, and he is too, he’ll be ok waiting. Wait until you trust him, its not foolproof, but nothing is.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sam. Interesting advice. I wonder how it would work in that part of the SMP which considers a BJ one step above a handshake. Not well, probabluy, but we don’t care for that part of the SMP. Problem is, people are trying to figure out what’s going on and all they have to go on is what they see, or hear, and in the latter case, the teller might be pulling a CBS (i.e. making stuff up).
    So different parts of the SMP are not separated by impermeable membranes. Values and ideas and tactics and assertions filter up and down.
    Maybe a woman would like your approach but has never seen it, never experienced it and heard from her friends only that so-and-so is a wimp for not going for it on the second date. I suppose I”m speaking of the younger women.

  • Sam

    Its all about values, goals, perspective, and those other lovely things.

    Its effectiveness in the younger, more unrestricted segments of the SMP is relative to your goals. It doesn’t really work as short game since you are relying solely on female initiation of sex. Beyond that, though, even in that crowd I think its better than average. Although points are lost in the lack of escalation dominance, its less important for long game anyway, and the gentlemanly behavior and lack of focus on sex is still held in decent regard, plus you come off as a bit of a challenge for being rather selective. The requisite dominance and other attraction triggers can be met in other ways than escalation, too, though, such as displaying high self-confidence and talking with many people (read: options), and attraction can be maintained. Some bite and some write me off. Hey, you can’t have em all, so don’t sweat the biddies, Jack. Kna’ ‘m sayn’?

    I can say that I receive way more positive attention from women over 35 than those under 30, which is the segment I’m in. The discrepancy is really quite astounding, and I can only wonder at the reasons. I think I’d attribute some of it to the age difference and simply receiving attention from a younger man, but I’m also inclined to think there have been some generational shifts in the traits favored by female sexual selection. It may also be related to them being beyond the SMP stage and off the market, not partaking of gender games anymore, or other things like that. Although, I also have so much more to talk about with older women than the young’ns, I’m sure that contributes as well. Haha, I have been described as an old man trapped in a young man’s body before.

  • Sam

    @ Anacaona 26

    “I said before that I don’t fall for negs and this is the reason why. Any guy that asked if my nails were real will lose my attention . . . . . . And then spent the night thinking why but not daring to ask him.”

    Au contraire, Anacaona, according to your example, I would say that neg served its purpose perfectly. Instead of only having your attention for so long as he could muster some meager conversation, he would have had it all night and didn’t even have to expend the energy of interacting with you that whole time. Time and energy he could spend negging other lovelies, just incase one didn’t take ;) Cha-ching!

  • Laurel

    Thank you all so much for the kind words and advice. “Drama llama”–ha–never heard that before–good term! Funny, I never would have put him down as one, he seemed to have found all the drama with her to be really unpleasant. Well, live and learn, I guess.

    Guys seem to talk a lot about girls not wanting the nice guys—maybe it’s also true the other way around, maybe not to the same extent, but guys not wanting girls that are too emotionally available and reliable?

    It’s nice to be able to talk about these things—this is a great web site, Susan.

  • OffTheCuff

    Not really. Men aren’t women. Every once in a while you’ll hear about some deluded guy who is aiming far out of his league, but those stories seem to only ever come from women. Selection bias makes it seem like there’s so many of them.

    Maybe the topmost guys don’t want the bother of a girlfriend, but it’s more common that men struggle with being *attractive* enough and operate according to the unwritten rules of modern courtship.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Au contraire, Anacaona, according to your example, I would say that neg served its purpose perfectly. Instead of only having your attention for so long as he could muster some meager conversation, he would have had it all night and didn’t even have to expend the energy of interacting with you that whole time. Time and energy he could spend negging other lovelies, just incase one didn’t take
    Thinking about my nails not him. He wouldn’t had entered my mind at all as a person. The question would be the focus not him, Capisce?

  • Sam

    Hehe, maybe the longer a man can go without entering a woman’s mind as a person, the better. But now I’m just being silly, if I’m ever serious. We shall never know.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hehe, maybe the longer a man can go without entering a woman’s mind as a person, the better. But now I’m just being silly, if I’m ever serious. We shall never know.
    Well my husband never negged me and he is the one that has my undivided attention and body. The neggers probably had a second part of their plan they never got to use. Ces’t la vie.

  • http://www.buygirlgetsring.org Michael Spenceley

    The hard to get strategy works because it creates mystery and curiosity.. two very high traits that humans pursue. I don’t believe you should play hard to get unless you are interested in the person. That would be just wrong.