Not Everybody’s Doing It: Busting the Myths That Fuel Hookup Culture

April 12, 2013

FreitasSex on campus has been reduced to a solitary and selfish act—basically, onanism “with another person present.”

 Donna Freitas, The End of Sex

Donna Freitas’s new book The End of Sex: How Hookup Culture is Leaving a Generation Unhappy, Sexually Unfulfilled, and Confused About Intimacy reflects eight years of research about casual sex in college. In that time she’s learned that students exaggerate how much sex they have, and stay silent about their real feelings re hookup culture. In her view, students are struggling, and that means we have a responsibility to provide them with resources to answer their unmet need. The good news is that the task is simple: speak the truth. From a 2008 interview:

All we need to do is tell students that most of them don’t like hook-up culture. 

…The perception is that everybody hooks up all the time and loves it, but in reality people are hooking up far less than they think others are. A lot of students had one hook-up experience, but that certainly is not rampant. People lie about how much sex they’re having and inflate what’s going on because the social pressure to hook up is really enormous.

There are a few students who really do love hook-up culture. They are the kings and queens of the school—the purveyors of hook-up culture—especially on small campuses, but they are very few and far between.

Since then, Freitas has surveyed thousands more students and spoken personally with hundreds.  In Time to stop hooking up. (You know you want to), her recent op-ed in the Washington Post, Freitas shares what a grind it all is for students:

Is hooking up a form of sexual experimentation? You’d think so. After all, hookups are all about throwing off the bonds of relationships and dating for carefree sex. But such hypersexuality can be just as oppressive as a mandate for abstinence. Hookup sex is fast, uncaring, unthinking, perfunctory. It has a lot less to do with excitement or attraction than with checking a box on a list of tasks, like homework or laundry. Yet, it has become the defining aspect of social life on many campuses — so common, so obligatory, that it leaves little room for experimentation that bends the rules.

…Nervous to be alone in challenging hookup culture, most students go along with it, even if they privately long for alternatives. They think that if they try to be less casual about sex, it’ll ruin their social lives. Conformity abounds.

Freitas’ data is interesting:

Of students who reported hooking up, 41 percent used words such as “regretful,” “empty,” “miserable,” “disgusted,” “ashamed,” “duped” and even “abused” to describe the experience. An additional 23 percent expressed ambivalence, and the remaining 36 percent said they were more or less “fine” with hookups — “fine” being the most common description.

When nearly two-thirds of participants are willing to say they don’t think their own decision was “fine,” we glimpse the absolute disconnect between cultural expectations and real experience. Meanwhile, the students don’t even know what romance is, but in their minds it is something not connected to sex:

Out of 99 students who wrote at length about romance, 64 understood romance as primarily talking: talking for hours upon hours, in a beautiful setting. Any talk of sexual intimacy, even kissing, was virtually absent from their descriptions.

…Students, in theory, will acknowledge that a hookup can be good. But I think they also experience the hookup as something they need to prove, that they can be sexually intimate with someone and then walk away not caring about that person or what they did. It’s a very callous attitude toward sexual experiences. But it seems like many students go into the hookup aware of this social contract, but then come out of it unable to uphold it and realizing that they do have feelings about what happened. They end up feeling ashamed that they can’t be callous.

As other researchers have found, Freitas learned that male and female attitudes differed little:

My biggest surprise when I started this project was the answers I heard from young men. I assumed I would hear stories of revelry from the men and a lot of complaints from the women. But a lot of the young men I talked to complained just as much as the women. They wished that they could be in a relationship and that they didn’t have to prove all of this stuff to their friends. They wanted to fall in love, and that was what I heard from the young women. What was different was that women felt like they were allowed to complain about it, and complaining felt verboten to men.

For me, the most interesting finding to come out of Freitas’ work is that students don’t want to get rid of hookups, they just want to be able to pursue alternatives without seeming lame and uncool.

Let me be clear: Every student I talked to was happy to have the option of hooking up. The problem is a culture of hooking up, where it’s the only option they see for being sexually intimate. They’re not against hooking up in theory, they just want other options.

Many hookups are just makeout sessions – that’s important to keep in mind when reading how students feel about them. They’re not necessarily opposed to hooking up with a cute stranger, they just want to alter the script and delay P in V sex until an emotional connection has been established. That’s what “hooking up smart” means – working from within the culture to experience what feels right for you, and getting the support young people need to say “no thanks” to whatever doesn’t feel OK.

Freitas, a theologian and a Catholic “despite everything,” does not feel that urging abstinence on college students is meaningful or effective. She believes this only really makes sense at the few evangelical colleges:

It is meaningful to have conversations about waiting until marriage on evangelical campuses, because you have early marriage. The culture is a culture of marriage, and so marriage is a meaningful category and goal for students at evangelical colleges. I do feel that a loosening of the strong tie between a very extreme interpretation of purity and marriage would be helpful. I saw a strong desire for that amongst evangelical college students.

Everywhere else, however, no one is talking about marriage.  In that setting, tying abstinence to marriage is simply not useful. Very few students can sign on to that. The vast majority cannot even wrap their minds around the thought of being abstinent until marriage. And they associate “abstinence” so much with “waiting until marriage” that the notion of being abstinent for a shorter period of time, of abstaining for a semester to consider what they want for their sex lives, does not even occur to them.  

Refreshingly, Freitas also addresses the ethical questions around casual sex. Reviewing Freitas’ book for the WSJ, Emily Estahani Smith writes:

In other words, many college students, who in philosophy class would surely recognize the ethical imperative not to use other people as means to an end, do so every night in their dorms. This selfishness is why, as Ms. Freitas argues, the hookup culture is intimately related to sexual assault. In both, one person uses another to satisfy a sexual or social desire without any regard for what that other person wants, needs or feels. Once alcohol is added to the mix, and there is plenty of it in the hookup culture, consent becomes a murky issue.

Finally, I’d like to add one very good reason people should stop prioritizing physical intimacy over emotional intimacy: Bad sex. Freitas sums up the reports she’s heard from students:

Bad sex, boring sex, drunken sex you don’t remember, sex you couldn’t care less about, sex where desire is absent, sex that you have just because everyone else is too or that just happens.

A recent Durex survey of 2,000 adults 25 and older yielded the following findings:

  • 87 percent of women said the hottest sex they ever had was with someone they knew and trusted, not a stranger.
  • 95 percent of men said sex is more fulfilling with an emotional connection.
  • 95 percent of women and 96 percent of men agreed that satisfying their partner comes before satisfying themselves.

So much for the notion that men prefer casual sex! Having sex like a man turns out to be quite similar to having sex like a woman. Men and women are clearly on the same page, and we do a disservice to both sexes when we don’t question cultural assumptions about casual sex.

Sure, men want the milk, whether it’s free or from their own cow, but they clearly think it tastes better from a private supply. It shouldn’t be so hard to avoid the self-serving manwhores if they’re only 5% of the population, right? 

Please, get out there and put hookup culture out of its misery!

  • Mike M.

    Cheap sex is worth what you paid for it.

    If that much.

  • Mike M.

    And I find it interesting, but not surprising, that men crave emotional intimacy. Which fact has massive implications for Game, possibly greater implications for Girl Game.

  • Paul Rivers

    Dang it, I just ran across an article that talks about a related subject, but I think it’s bookmarked on my other computer.

    Anyways, the article said that most tactics to reduce college drinking aren’t very effective. Colleges try to educate people about the dangers of drinking – not terribly effective. Colleges try to encourage students not to drink – not terribly effective. Etc etc.

    The one thing this article said that worked was advertising that students weren’t actually drinking all the time, as was often the common belief (I don’t remember how they “advertised” ). So many people believed that everyone else was getting blitzed, when in reality the actual number was smaller than everyone thought, that they just went along with it.

    The article said this was the one thing that actually reduced the amount of drinking problems…

    Likewise, one has to wonder how many people are really part of “hookup culture”, and then after that how many of them would prefer not to be, but just think that’s what everybody is doing. (Not that this is a new theme to this blog, just hoping someone else maybe has a link to the article!).

    • @Paul Rivers

      Yes, that phenomenon is called Pluralistic Ignorance, and IIRC UNC – Chapel Hill was able to lower the binge drinking rate significantly by posting stats around campus about what percentage of students actually drinks on a Saturday night. (It was surprisingly low.)

      Getting the facts out there about hookup culture has been a key part of my strategy for the last year, which is when I realized that the stats just don’t bear out the claims of widespread casual sex. Now some highly respected academics are concluding and publishing their own studies. I find it gratifying that Freitas is adopting that same strategy, though she doesn’t call it PI.

  • Maggie

    Hanna Rosin seemed to get a lot of press last year when she claimed that women were actually the driving force perpetuating hookup culture. It’s nice to see Freitas address this. Evidently, Rosin talked to her students in public and at parties. Freitas private interviews would seem much more reliable.

    • @Maggie

      Rosin has a very feminist agenda, and she admitted that the success of feminism actually depends on hookup culture, women avoiding relationships, delaying marriage, etc. If they gravitate toward serious relationships instead of casual sex, they may not “lean in” with as much conviction.

      I read that in an interview where Rosin’s children and husband were present, the family stated that females are superior to males, and apparently her son and her husband agreed with this statement.

      Now there’s a good example of how useful ad hom can be. It’s important to know who you’re dealing with.

  • Holy Basil

    Dullcock says women are f*cking whoever they want with impunity.

    • Dullcock says women are f*cking whoever they want with impunity.

      He’s right about the impunity, though he and I would differ on the number of carousel riders, and watchers, and wishers, and hopefuls.

  • I think it’s true that a lot of men want emotional intimacy, it is not all about sex and done. All the guys I went out with in the last 2 years wanted it; it was just that we were not a good fit. I’d like to think that those guys see something “sane” and “safe” and that I know how to recognize them. Just have to find one that we actually want to hook up with.

  • Abbot

    “They wanted to fall in love, and that was what I heard from the young women.”

    There are slimy agenda-driven influences originated by those who want to keep college women from doing just that

  • Escoffier

    “I read that in an interview where Rosin’s children and husband were present, the family stated that females are superior to males, and apparently her son and her husband agreed with this statement. ”

    That is actually surprising to me. Surprising that she could be quite that stereotypically awful. Does she carry her husband’s balls in a little jar in her purse?

    • @Escoffier

      Darn it, I can’t find that reference to that Rosin/Plotz family interview! I saw it in the last couple of days, but I honestly don’t know where. In the meantime I did find this from an interview about The End of Men:

      You dedicated the book to your eldest son, Jacob, nine, “with apologies for the title”. What is his view of your argument?

      He is offended by the book. I wish I could show you the notes that he puts on my attic door. It is very hard to explain to a nine-year-old what I mean by “the end of men”, and what the positive elements are for men such as him who are likely to be college-educated and come from resourceful families. A lot of this is likely to be better for them: removing the burden of breadwinning, making it possible for him when he is older to date a woman who makes more money than him and that not being a big deal, being able to be a more involved father and that not being a big deal. However, at this moment the actual title of the book is very hard on his ears.

  • Madelena

    This is good news and should be spread far and wide across as many mainstream and social media platforms as possible. Everybody genuinely thinks everyone else is having a grand ole time except for them and that illusion when it comes to hookup sex needs to be demolished.

    On another note, I saw a very interesting scene today walking home from work. A pretty girl was walking on the pavement, and this yuppie guy dashed from the cafe, ran after her, asking her to stop. He then said that he couldn’t help himself but he saw a glimpse of her, thought she was beautiful and had to introduce himself which he promptly did. She did as well, but reluctantly, with her body half turned away, and proceeded to inch away with the excuse that her boyfriend was waiting for her. My stride led me to walk past them at this point but I was super impressed at the guts the guy showed. He had an expansive aura, with a direct look and spoke in a confident manner with little tremulousness or nerves, thus evading the creepy label. Several of us walking in the same area kinda exchanged glances and smiled at the scene cause it’s just so rare to see that sort of gumption displayed. I wish the girl handled it with a little bit more charm but she probably was too taken aback to be anything than direct.

  • “I read that in an interview where Rosin’s children and husband were present, the family stated that females are superior to males, and apparently her son and her husband agreed with this statement.”

    Well, she can keep her husband; who would want a man like that?
    Something should be done to save her son. Illico!

  • @ Susan,

    Yep, I had read a letter to Marie Claire (?) where her son called her a bully because she was saying that men where going to disappear, and that he didn’t like her position. So yeah, if even a kiddo can identify the lack of fairness and lopsided observation, what of the rest?

  • Passer_By

    “My stride led me to walk past them at this point but I was super impressed at the guts the guy showed. He had an expansive aura, with a direct look and spoke in a confident manner with little tremulousness or nerves, thus evading the creepy label.”

    That’s probably about how Ted Bundy came across.

  • Madelena

    @Passer By

    “My stride led me to walk past them at this point but I was super impressed at the guts the guy showed. He had an expansive aura, with a direct look and spoke in a confident manner with little tremulousness or nerves, thus evading the creepy label.”

    That’s probably about how Ted Bundy came across.

    My response:

    Ted Bundy was hot.

  • Passer_By

    In my next life, I wanna come back as a serial killer. Those guys get all the chicks.

    • In my next life, I wanna come back as a serial killer. Those guys get all the chicks.

      Speaking of irreverent, you take the cake! I love it, you’re hilarious.

  • “Ted Bundy was hot.”

    Ted Bundy tortured women to death, dismembered them and had sex with their body parts.

    He was one of those “Dark Triad” guys. The more stupid in the Manosphere don’t understand what that can mean. It’s nothing good.

  • Holy Basil

    “Well, she can keep her husband; who would want a man like that?”

    Raises hand.

    “In my next life, I wanna come back as a serial killer. Those guys get all the chicks.”

    Yes, they certainly get all the high SMV and MMV hot 10s, don’t they?

    Meanwhile female killers like Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias (trial televised as we speak, she killed her boyfriend and then accused him of pedophilia and Christian Greyism), cast a spell that smittens even their high status alpha lawyers and psychologists.

    And lets not forget Susan Sadie Atkins, Charles Manson’s right hand, who married in jail, twice, an alpha lawyer included amongst them as well.

    WOMEN WHO KILL & THE SUCCESSUL ALPHAS WHO LOVE THEM

  • Holy Basil

    Madelena April 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    @Passer By

    “My stride led me to walk past them at this point but I was super impressed at the guts the guy showed. He had an expansive aura, with a direct look and spoke in a confident manner with little tremulousness or nerves, thus evading the creepy label.”

    That’s probably about how Ted Bundy came across.

    My response:

    Ted Bundy was hot.
    ___________________

    By this country’s standards, and for that particular era, Bundy was a reasonably good looking man but by no means drop dead (heh) gorgeous.

    The reason he was able to fool women was by pretending to be injured, disabled or in need of some kind of help to lure them back to his car. They saw a decent looking symmetrical face and a seemingly well-behaved nice guy in need of help and out of the goodness of their hearts responded in kind.

    When they realized they were in danger they didn’t say, “Oh wowzers! This hot guy is about to torture and kill me, like that’s sooooooooo hawt! Duuuuuude I better stick around.”

    No, they cried and screamed and begged for their lives.

    So all this, “women thought Ted Bundy was hot BECAUSE he tortured and killed people” is a bunch of Manosphere Dullcockery.

  • Madelena

    @Bob Wallace

    Ted Bundy tortured women to death, dismembered them and had sex with their body parts.

    He was one of those “Dark Triad” guys. The more stupid in the Manosphere don’t understand what that can mean. It’s nothing good.

    My response:

    Dude was a psycopath. The handsome looks covered some evil shit. I think he goes way beyond “Dark Triads” if I understand the terminology correctly.

  • Madelena

    For what it’s worth re the “Ted Bundy was hot” comment, it was a silly response to a silly statement.

  • Passer_By

    @PJ

    You’re just jealous that Susan (Sadie Mae) Atkins got to fuck Charlie and you didn’t.

    P.S. Shut up

  • Holy Basil

    “For what it’s worth re the “Ted Bundy was hot” comment, it was a silly response to a silly statement.”

    Right, but the Manosphere thinks women are jocking Bundy’s dullcock ’til this day because all women love all serial killers all day all where’s.

  • Holy Basil

    Speaking of “girl game” and “doing it”, there are still women trying to ingratiate themselves to the Manosphere.

    Marlene:
    “We still exist, white women who cook and take care of our men and families. I made my boyfriend homeade enchiladas, guacamole, and pina coladas this weekend and just spent two hours preparing homeade lasagna for my parents. On top of that, I am educated (physician). Some men are lucky enough to have found an American woman that still enjoys cooking and places a high value on nutrition and fitness.”

    Manosphere Guy Replies:
    “So? What do you want a cookie? You want a wittle pat on your widdle head? Today you are cooking your “boyfriend” dinner and tomorrow you are divorcing him and taking him for everything he’s got. I can tell your the type. You can’t help but seek validation from people who don’t even know you.”

    Another female Manosphere Groupie Who Calls Herself “Worthless Bitch”:

    Worthless Bitch April 9, 2012 at 12:25

    “For me it is worth the reduced income to have a cheerful wife preparing great meals at home.” Amen. This is why my husband and I have a happy marriage. And I’m an American woman.

    @ Jean Valjean. So much hatred! The MRM will never succeed while holding unbridled contempt for 50% of the population. Yeah a lot of women are shit these days but i doubt you make very pleasant company either. If you want to go your own way, go, but don’t expect many men to follow.”

    And “Karen” says she wants the Manospherians to swing their (small) d*cks around in public to protest the Feminazi Matriarchal Regime:

    Karen March 5, 2013 at 10:14

    “I’m a 45 yr old woman. I was born when feminism was kicking in strong. I grew up in a filthy house while being fed Hamburger Helper. My mother didn’t teach me to cook. I was taught to clean so she could lay on the couch and read her romance novels. I was endlessly told by women that men want to keep us down.
    I have watched America sink like the Titanic.
    I tried to follow along. Work, take care of the home, cook. Do it all because we are Supermoms!! It’s all a bunch of CRAP!!
    I feel like I got the short end of the stick. I’m slaving at a job and all I’m thinking about is how much I want to be at home. I’m so jealous of how lucky women were before my mother’s generation came around.

    You men need to put your foot down! Things are out of hand. Nothing is in order. If you want to keep being our hero, guardian, leader, teacher and lover then you must stop the madness. Step up, prove you’re stronger, save us before we sink!! March naked in the streets like the women did when this whole feminism thing started. Swing your manhood around while you wave your signs. Make the women cower behind the curtains in fear while they watch. Just please, fix it, I’m begging you.”

    All of the above courtesy of The Spermhead/The Fearhead.
    Otherwise known as The Spearhead.

  • Madelena

    @Holy Basil

    There are weak, ingratiating people everywhere, women and men. Both the men and women in your posts are just pathetic, for different reasons.
    My question is why seek them out?. It’s like black people trolling Storm Front. Why expose yourself to toxicity of that nature?. I only ever encounter these sorts of sentiments online and mainly here (I don’t go to the PUA sites).
    It took a while but I have learned to take the few useful nuggets of info for my use and betterment (mainly girl game info and unknown info like men’s deep need for sex) and discard other items (manosphere memes).

    Having said that though, I do appreciate a lot of your responses. You bring a very interesting and needed viewpoint that I, as a reader who doesn’t post much, enjoy reading.

  • Crouchback

    A few things to keep in mind about Hanna Rosin.

    1. She has in all probability spent her single life in environments where there were more men than women. Remember, the gender gap in academic achievement is biggest among the poor and minorities and doesn’t really exist at the elite level. She went to Stanford and then was a writer at the New Republic, so she most likely never had to work hard for male attention. Lack of competition lets you get away with a lot of crap. If she suddenly found herself on the dating market again I suspect she’d be in for a nasty shock.

    2. Her husband is editor of Slate which might have something to do with why she and her book are so heavily promoted. The man may be whipped but he’s definitely useful.

    3. Aside from other offenses, she’s a sloppy writer. Most of her claims don’t hold up well under scrutiny. Sure, at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale you’re seeing a male crisis but that doesn’t do women at that level any good. Among those who still get married, the men continue to work far more hours at paid work and earn the bulk of the money. Ivy league educated women have lower labor force participation rates than women educated at more ordinary colleges. The sociologist Philip Cohen has done a good job of punching holes in her arguments.

    4. Which leads to the final point – whenever you see declarations by feminists that we’re in some golden age where women will now have families all by the selves, liberated from men, you’re seeing a lot of bullshit. The women who go to the top schools may talk a good game but in the end they’re pretty careful to marry well especially if they’re having kids. Hanna Rosin sure did. At most you’re looking at a world where the bottom third are an unhappy and unwilling matriarchy while the elite is functionally patriarchal while giving lip service to feminism.

    • @Crouchback

      +1 on your whole comment but this is the most concise summary of our society I’ve ever seen:

      At most you’re looking at a world where the bottom third are an unhappy and unwilling matriarchy while the elite is functionally patriarchal while giving lip service to feminism.

  • Abbot

    Another matter on campus – The SWUG. Clearly, women feel that boys provide this so-called “empowerment” thingy.

    “to be a SWUG is to embrace “the slow, wine-filled decline of female sexual empowerment as we live out our college glory days. Welcome to the world of the ladies who have given up on boys because they don’t so much empower as frustrate, satisfy as agitate.”

    http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/04/meet-the-swugs-of-yale-women-washed-up-at-21.html

    .

  • Anacaona

    Yep, I had read a letter to Marie Claire (?) where her son called her a bully because she was saying that men where going to disappear, and that he didn’t like her position.
    And
    The man may be whipped but he’s definitely useful.

    I think we are forgetting that she is directly making money from her position. I doubt her son could bypass mom without permission and
    I’m sure her husband is benefiting as well if you ask me. The whole thing is about making money from gullible ‘strong modern women’ and her family will say mass if they have to, to afford those vacations at Disney and some cruises,YMMV.

  • RealityBites.com

    The Elusive (True) Alpha

    It is painfully obvious to a prudent observer that the female imperative has made men into limp-penis pussies, who pretend to be men. This is nothing new and has been in motion since the early 1990’s. Don’t believe me? Watch some early Andrew Dice Clay videos then compare them to some later videos and notice the dramatic difference in his routine (the later videos barely qualify as “comedy”). When I first saw him, I believed that he was a true Alpha: not caring what anyone thought and offending simply for the sake of offending. Unfortunately, his later videos showed him/her to be a simpering shemale, who accepts the female imperative like my dog accepts human food…lapping up every, last molecule.

    Such is the case in America today – very, very, very few real Alphas out there. I would further say that even higher level Betas are going the way of the Wooly Mammoth. Oh, there are plenty of pretenders, posers, wanna-be’s, and just general fakers out there but very few genuine Alphas and Betas. We have all seen the handsome young man at the gym that has all the right moves and right attitude to be an Alpha – until his attractive girlfriend comes around. He then changes into an over-attentive, whipped shell of his former (wanna-be?) Alpha self – herding her around like a sheep dog. In other cases, following her around like a lost soul – longing for her attention and approval. You see the same thing in the grocery store – men following their women around like whipped dogs. They push the cart, listen to her endless (yes, I said “endless”) complaints about virtually everything. The prices are too high, the selection is too small, the check-out lines are too long, and any other frivolous complaint that comes to her bitchy brain. Speaking of bitchy, why are the above mentioned men present with their women in the first place? Aren’t women capable of working-out and shopping on their own? Why are the men there in the first place?

    The answer is simple: real Alphas and Betas are not born – they are made. Made by fathers who learned to be men from their fathers and so on back to Adam himself! Today, however, fathers are driven from young boys’ lives by their mothers. Either through divorce or simply being excluded from the very beginning. They learn to please women to the exclusion of all else – even their own happiness. Thank you feminism for making America a better place!

    This leads to our faux-Alphas and faux-Betas. They can “act” the part of being self-confident and cool – until an attractive woman comes around. They are then reduces to their real, self-doubting selves and waiting for some…any…modicum of approval from the female. Disgusting to watch, really. A young, handsome man – full of potential – groveling for female attention. The very definition of pathetic. As if poon is more important than self-respect and dignity.

    I am here to tell you that it is not! Poon is the product of self-respect, dignity, and being a man, not the cause of these things. Poon does not make you cool and self-confident, rather, being self-confidence and having self-respect gets you poon.

    Let’s face facts: women outnumber men in most places. Sooner or later, women will need men to fulfill their biological imperative: having children. That means sooner or later women will need to choose a man, have sex with him, and bear his child/children. Reader’s Digest version: time is on your side, gentlemen. Be patient and they will come to you! The more resources you have, the more women you will attract. How do you acquire these resources? Do not waste your time, money, or energy on women. Focus instead upon yourself.

    It’s really that simple.

    • @Reality Bites

      Cosign your comment for the most part – you speak a lot of truth there.

      Today, however, fathers are driven from young boys’ lives by their mothers. Either through divorce or simply being excluded from the very beginning.

      This is simply not an accurate generalization. The vast majority of males who father OOW children are totally MIA, usually not even present during the pregnancy, much less once the kid is born. They do not stick around.

      There are also men who are divorced for good reasons. The man who is physically violent, adulterous, or refuses to provide for his family has not been driven away from his kids, he has harmed them and been ostracized as a result.

      It doesn’t make sense to claim that women want to be single mothers and raise their children alone.

  • Escoffier

    The elite is not functionally patriarchal. At best the elite has managed to implement the feminist 1.0 ideals of “gender equality” and “true choice.” That is, what appears to be patriarchal–say, UMC women staying home with the kids–is not genuinely patriarchal in the sense that those women submit to and obey their husbands.

  • Benton

    Fascinating piece by Donna Freitas. I could relate to the comment that “complaining felt verboten to men,” since that captures my feelings exactly. If a guy does not like hook-up culture, he gets mocked by other men and even by women! That is why you are seeing an increase in the number of men who never have sex in college, and then decide to “Go Their Own Way.”

    The vocal, charismatic minority of people who are driving hook up culture claim to support individual choice and expression, but really just want people to support their behavior. If you disagree with them, you are labelled anti-woman (if you are a man) or a shrew (if you are a woman).

    Susan, that’s why I’m glad you wrote:
    “That’s what “hooking up smart” means – working from within the culture to experience what feels right for you, and getting the support young people need to say “no thanks” to whatever doesn’t feel OK.”

    The problem is that our culture will not allow someone to say something like that! Anyone who does is labelled anti-women by feminists, and then attacked by the men who want the feminists’ support.

    Personally, I have no interest in shaping society, but I do want to have an exciting relationship with a caring partner. Even though I was raised to value “traditional dating,” it has failed. I have since learned some “game,” had some success “hooking up,” and now hope something good comes from it. It just frustrates me because I would prefer to delay physical intimacy until there is a real emotional connection, but that just doesn’t work anymore.

    • @Benton

      The problem is that our culture will not allow someone to say something like that! Anyone who does is labelled anti-women by feminists, and then attacked by the men who want the feminists’ support.

      I’m encouraged by the number of articles dealing with this issue head on. I noticed an interesting thing recently when I listened to the NPR program about the Susan Patton letter. Amanda Marcotte was a guest, and when hookup culture came up, she was dismissive of course, but in a new way. She said, “Oh please! Data shows that very few people are even hooking up, much less having regular casual sex.” That’s huge, because she used to say that women did want to hook up, and they should be celebrated for their choices. Now she’s admitting that most men and women don’t prefer it – in which case, what’s the point of sex-positive feminism? She’s acknowledging that it’s radical – something for the fringe.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Crouchback;

    Aside from other offenses, she’s a sloppy writer. Most of her claims don’t hold up well under scrutiny.

    Philip Cohen has written a whole series of takedowns on Hanah Rosin’s claims at his blog. He’s a liberal, feminist academic – one would think a natural ally of someone like Rosin.

  • mr. wavevector

    She said, “Oh please! Data shows that very few people are even hooking up, much less having regular casual sex.”

    And here I thought Amanda was impervious to data.

  • mr. wavevector

    Susan,

    It doesn’t make sense to claim that women want to be single mothers and raise their children alone.

    The studies I’ve read on this subject suggest that while women don’t consider that the ideal, they are indeed single mothers by choice, because they find that option less unsatisfactory than marrying the men they have available to them or not being mothers at all.

    Whether that’s a problem of unrealistic expectations or low quality of men in their socioeconomic status is debatable. There is certainly a strong correlation with the declining economic prosperity of lower SES men and their declining marriage rates.

  • mr. wavevector

    So much for the notion that men prefer casual sex! Having sex like a man turns out to be quite similar to having sex like a woman. Men and women are clearly on the same page, and we do a disservice to both sexes when we don’t question cultural assumptions about casual sex.

    I think this is the most important point. We have this rigid and unrealistic cultural expectation of male sexuality – the male as the insatiable pursuer – that just doesn’t fit the majority of men. And there is little space for young men to discuss alternatives to this model. As Frietas found in her interviews, they feel silenced and unable to express their vulnerability.

    Does hookup culture have different outcomes for men and women?

    I was surprised by what men thought in private versus how they acted in public. To be a guy seems to never show vulnerability, to hide your true feelings. We worry in our culture—rightly—so much about girls. We don’t seem to worry as much about young men. But our most at-risk population seems to be young men. I don’t say that lightly. I have a gender studies background and have done so much work on women and girls and empowerment—but I think young men are the most at-risk. The greater distance between who you truly believe you are, who you want to be, and who you are in public—that’s what puts you at risk. You’re alienated from your support network. No one knows who you really are. To be a guy in college is to hide. There are exceptions, but I think guys are better at hiding than girls are. Girls are allowed to express themselves emotionally. They’re allowed to say, “I’m hurting.” Guys are never allowed to say, “I’m hurting.”

    Where are guys allowed to say “I’m hurting”? It’s so not Alpha.

    • @mr. wavevector

      Where are guys allowed to say “I’m hurting”? It’s so not Alpha.

      I agree with Freitas that the best thing we can do is tell the truth – shine a light on all the misinformation, misunderstanding, wrong impressions, etc. To the extent that a guy can read a finding from the Durex survey that lets him know he’s in the 95% majority, he will feel less isolated and eventually figure that he can voice his opinion knowing the odds are good the other guy feels the same way.

      The Sexual Revolution was not solely the result of feminism – the introduction of the Pill explains most of it. But feminists have taken up the cause of disseminating propaganda, and it’s just coming to light how completely dysfunctional it is for functioning human beings.

      This is just a small piece of combating misandry among feminists, but it’s something that needs to be done. If we can shift the thinking of the average young person to focus on the possible rather than the impossible (or extremely unlikely), I think we’ll see a real shift in young people standing up for themselves.

  • jack

    Susan-

    I have been saying this on your site since you first started blogging:

    The “80/20” is NOT that the majority of women are sexing up the minority of men.

    Maybe 5% are huge sluts. Maybe another 10-15% are situationally slutty.

    The rest are watching the carousel, as opposed to riding it actively.

    This large group of women probably have one FWB that gets the itch scratched when needed, so their “number” is probably fairly low.
    Since they are getting their sexual needs met, this leaves them completely free to hold out for the best deal possible.

    When you see a group of college age women out together, they are not open to anything other than an approach by a high-value man.

    It is a hybrid strategy, and even thought they may have a # of 5 or less, the excessive pickiness that this system leads to is killing the chance of marriage or family for many of them.

    • @Jack

      The rest are watching the carousel, as opposed to riding it actively.

      This large group of women probably have one FWB that gets the itch scratched when needed, so their “number” is probably fairly low.
      Since they are getting their sexual needs met, this leaves them completely free to hold out for the best deal possible.

      In four years of blogging I have seen no evidence to support your claim. In contrast, the research on sociosexuality contradicts it. So does the finding that 87% of women want emotionally intimate sex. The number of students in college with LTRs – half – blows the apex fallacy wide open.

      I don’t buy the carousel watching theory. Why watch when it’s easy to hop on? No woman was ever turned away from sluthood.

  • Erik L

    A lot of the problems of college women can be explained by the fact that for these years they are isolated with men who are too young for them.

  • Benton

    “Does hookup culture have different outcomes for men and women?

    I was surprised by what men thought in private versus how they acted in public. To be a guy seems to never show vulnerability, to hide your true feelings. We worry in our culture—rightly—so much about girls. We don’t seem to worry as much about young men. But our most at-risk population seems to be young men. I don’t say that lightly. I have a gender studies background and have done so much work on women and girls and empowerment—but I think young men are the most at-risk. The greater distance between who you truly believe you are, who you want to be, and who you are in public—that’s what puts you at risk. You’re alienated from your support network. No one knows who you really are. To be a guy in college is to hide. There are exceptions, but I think guys are better at hiding than girls are. Girls are allowed to express themselves emotionally. They’re allowed to say, “I’m hurting.” Guys are never allowed to say, “I’m hurting.” ”

    Thanks for posting this. It is so helpful to hear that that feeling widespread.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Said it before: As a fraternity grad adviser back in the day, loosely employed by the Dean of Students, the guys we had to watch were the ones who’d been dumped. Not the ones who hadn’t been able to get laid in forever. The ones whose now-ex girlfriends told them they weren’t all that much and not to call.

    As to motivation:
    Not. Getting. It.
    I’ve seen fads. Wearing some lame scarf two or three times around the neck. Red suspenders for the movers and shakes. When Starbucks was new, the self-announced superior used the word in every third sentence. When there were so many Starbucks that anybody could go there, there was no distinction so we don’t hear that from the upward strivers.
    In college, when you could smoke anywhere, the Golden Greeks did not coolly, casually, competently flip open their Zippo one-handed. No, it had to be a two-handed project. And instead of carrying a full-size notebook, they had a three/quarter ring binder tucked up under the arm. So everybody would know, of course.
    All of these and any number of others were designed to look like the Big Shots, to be taken by others as a Big Shot, to be accepted by the Big Shots. To make the point that one was following the currently correct and was not a nerd.

    Hooking up? For the woman. The guy is fumbling around like he’s trying to learn the business. Might hurt, or be uncomfortable. Then he’s pounding away, doing various things that don’t feel all that good. Taking the chance of injury, STD, pregnancy.
    Just because you think–more or less incorrectly–everybody else is doing it? Okay, the first couple of times fall of your freshman year. But after you find out what it’s all about…?
    You don’t have the stones–figuratively speaking–the self-confidence, the independence from what Everybody claims Everybody is thinking and doing? To the extent of slutting it up with some guy you don’t know very well at all in order not to be called a nun or something? Different from other socially-imposed should-do items. Big difference.
    Not. Getting. It.

  • mr. wavevector

    Interesting article here on SWUGs: a Senior Washed-Up Girl. It really captures the lifecycle of the SMP compressed into the 4-year microcosm of college.

    The author is one of Hannah Rosin’s super-empowered young college women, who uses hookups to exert control:

    Rosin continues: “One sorority girl … whom I’ll call Tali, told me that freshman year she, like many of her peers, was high on her first taste of the hookup culture and didn’t want a boyfriend. ‘It was empowering, to have that kind of control,’ she recalls.”

    That’s me — Tali.

    And here she is now as a senior:

    “I would be so happy with myself if I could just feel nothing,” she says. She just wants to not care anymore — to be able to get to some kind of a Zen, SWUG state of mind. But is that even a thing? If that’s what being a SWUG is supposed to be providing me with, I’m not so sure it’s living up to its own reputation. I think back to Hanna Rosin’s thesis of female empowerment through not caring.

    The truth is, I still care. And everyone I know still cares.

    “It’s almost like being a SWUG is a way to cope,” I offer, thinking of myself, and the nonchalant way I try to react to men these days. I pretend I don’t care, because that’s what a SWUG does. A SWUG is supposed to be so over boys. A SWUG is supposed to be liberated, independent.

    And yet here I am, often defining the SWUG experience by the men I am not dating. Michelle Taylor wanted us to get past the SWUG-is-a-girl-who-can’t-get-no-love association, but I find myself stuck there.

    One guy tell it like it is:

    “Girls are the problem. They all go for older men.”

    Of course this is a short term problem for the SWUGs. In a year they will be the fresh young things in the adult social scene, out-competing older women for the attention of older men, while their male peers will be back at the bottom of the pecking order.

  • Escoffier

    “I would be so happy with myself if I could just feel nothing”

    A rather distorted version of philosophic serenity or equanimity, which is much harder to achieve and requires time and effort.

    Kids, the real things is preferable to “comfortably numb.”

  • mr. wavevector

    @Susan,

    The Sexual Revolution was not solely the result of feminism – the introduction of the Pill explains most of it. But feminists have taken up the cause of disseminating propaganda, and it’s just coming to light how completely dysfunctional it is for functioning human beings.

    I think significance the Pill is over-rated. Many of the changes of sexual behavior that it is associated with, such as increasing rates of pre-marital sex and declining birth rate, started all the way back in the 19th century. But the significance of feminism can also be over-rated too. Feminism is just one element in the slow but unstoppable liberalization of society from one based on tradition and authority to one based on individual autonomy that started way back in the 17th century.

    I think we’re starting to realize that some of those social mores and gender roles that were previously enforced through tradition and authority weren’t arbitrary after all, but were based on millenia of learning. I’m not suggesting that we revert to the traditions of an earlier age, but we’re having to relearn all those lessons in our own time.

  • tilikum

    men crave intimacy because women rarely know how to give it.

    • @tilikum

      men crave intimacy because women rarely know how to give it.

      So that’s a need not being met. A real need for emotional intimacy, including during sex. Right?

      This ties in well to my “emotional escalation” posts. Guys here have said that if they met a woman who emotionally escalated while they sexually escalated, they’d fall head over heels in love.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Escoffier,

    “I would be so happy with myself if I could just feel nothing”

    A rather distorted version of philosophic serenity or equanimity, which is much harder to achieve and requires time and effort.

    Kids, the real things is preferable to “comfortably numb.”

    I feel sorry for these girls who are trying so hard to live up to the ideals set forth for them by the likes of Hannah Rosin.

    The Rosin narrative suggests that feminism exists most progressively and positively when women just stop caring about having serious relationships with men.

    Even these smart Yale girls can’t seem to understand that if the best case outcome of their commitment to feminism is “feeling nothing”, maybe something is wrong with their assumptions.

    • Even these smart Yale girls can’t seem to understand that if the best case outcome of their commitment to feminism is “feeling nothing”, maybe something is wrong with their assumptions.

      Yes, it’s pretty clear that cognitive gifts and the ability to learn from one’s experiences are unrelated.

  • I think that has to do with that “intellectual elitism” the Tea Partiers love to gaggle about. Some people, men and women, are just in love with the idea of being at the helm of new philosophies/lifestyles/trends they don’t even take one minute to think maybe something already done might fit them. It seems so uncomfortable and “intellectually backwards” you couldn’t possibly take it as an option.

    “If you’re not progressive, you’re backwards. And we all know that backwards is bad, right?!?!?!”

    Great alternatives.

  • tilikum

    sue,

    Yep. If women put down the loaded gun they hold at the head of themselves, men, and family, and just…….learn to be NICE…men would reciprocate exponentially, it’s our nature.

    But it isn’t enough, not yet. But that time is fast approaching as the donkey kicks over the applecart.

  • xxxxx

    @Bob Wallace

    Ted Bundy tortured women to death, dismembered them and had sex with their body parts.

    He was one of those “Dark Triad” guys. The more stupid in the Manosphere don’t understand what that can mean. It’s nothing good.

    @Madalena:

    Dude was a psycopath. The handsome looks covered some evil shit. I think he goes way beyond “Dark Triads” if I understand the terminology correctly.

    My response :

    The manosphere intended this in a very sarcastic and ironic way. They meant it in a way that means “Stupid is as Stupid gets”. So if women are going to love totally insane psychopatic assholes, they maybe they deserve the same totally insane psychopatic assholes.

  • Abbot

    …and the trend keeps on cooking

    http://omg.yahoo.com/news/gabrielle-reece-women-submissive-husbands-180000586-us-weekly.html

    The Marcotte-Rosen team is going to take a collective dump
    .

  • Holy Basil

    The Pill is over the counter and super cheap in *a certain country* (namaste!) and there is hardly any out of wedlock birthrate there at all. The Sexual Revolution is a natural outcome of modern Western Civilization.

    Oh yeah, there’s a Feminist Hulk (the green guy) on twitter now;

    FEMINIST HULK ‏@feministhulk 3h

    STALKERS NOT ROMANTIC, STREET HARRASSMENT NOT A COMPLIMENT, RAPE NOT AN EXPRESSION OF THWARTED DESIRE. SMASH RAPE CULTURE

  • Bruce

    This crap again Susan?
    A. Women lie on anonymous polls
    B. College is 4 years with the average age of marriage being 26-28 this means nothing. You would eat your words if there was a reliable poll for women around this age.
    C. Just face it, women hook up, if you’re a guy you’re marrying a slut nowadays.

    • @Bruce

      Freitas didn’t ask women how many men they’d hooked up with. That was not her agenda. Rather, she spoke at length to many college men and women to determine how they feel about the hookups they’ve had.

      However, I prefer to examine everything I can that attempts to decipher the SMP. You may be inclined to dismiss all research, but that’s foolishness in my view.

      BTW, the earth is round.

      Re number of sexual partners, men lie more:

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/06/hookinguprealities/the-definitive-survey-of-college-students-sexual-behavior-by-gender/

      Several factors have been shown to influence self-reported sexual activity by gender:

      1. National sampling typically excludes female sex workers. Adding in visits to prostitutes evens the score.

      2. Women report more sexual partners when they are assured anonymity, reducing their fear of a sexual double standard.

      Additional factors apply to college settings:

      3. Nationwide the sex ratio of 60% females to 40% males.

      4. Changing gender norms for sexual behaviors is reducing the discrepancy between male and female reporting. The oft-cited “lie detector study” did not rise to statistical significance. According to its authors:
      Several recent sexuality surveys have found no sex differences in self-reported sexual behavior (Browning, Kessler, Hatfield, & Choo, 1999), incidence of casual sexual interactions (Maticka-Tyndale, Herold, & Mewhinney, 1998; Paul, McManus, & Hayes, 2000), number of sexual partners in the past year (Brown & Sinclair, 1999), or desired number of lifetime sexual partners (Pedersen et al., 2002). The lack of sex differences in these studies and in our analysis may reflect currently shifting gender roles and their subsequent impact on normative expectations and expressions of sexual behavior.

      5. Some studies have found that men admit to greater dishonesty than women, as they tend to round up to larger numbers when recalling the number of past sexual partners. (Their numbers tend to end in 0 or 5.) In one study, removing the men who acknowledged exaggerating eliminated all gender discrepancy in the number of reported partners.

      According to researcher and sociology professor Lisa Wade, a recent online survey notes that 60% of older teenage men lie about their sexual activities.

      But hey, whatever gets you through the night.

  • Escoffier

    “Nationwide the sex ratio of 60% females to 40% males”

    That’s really amazing. If you think about it, in a country this big, if the delta were only 52-48 that would be enough to skew everything badly. But 60-40 is just overwhelmingly massive.

  • Passer_By

    “Nationwide the sex ratio of 60% females to 40% males.”

    Gotta get that to 66% to 33% in the next 5 or 6 years so that my sons can go off to college singing “Two Girls for Every Boooyyyyyy!”

  • Passer_By

    “Many of us would rather stay home and fantasize about hot guys while we masturbate and bring ourselves to an actual damn orgasm.”

    Glad to be of service.

  • Abbot

    “Because most American men are not all that good looking and they certainly are not that good in bed, that’s why.”

    Thus the harem

  • Buckley

    “Many of us would rather stay home and fantasize about hot guys while we masturbate and bring ourselves to an actual damn orgasm.”

    Whatever keeps you from posting!

  • Holy Basil

    “Because most American men are not all that good looking and they certainly are not that good in bed, that’s why.”

    “Thus the harem”

    I’m willing to bet many of those “harem keepers” are lousy in the sack as well.

  • 60% to 40% sex ratio in colleges….reminds me that a couple of weeks ago I saw an article based on research which claims to explain all kinds of social and political phenomena in terms of changing sex ratios in the society:

    http://www.westseattleherald.com/2012/09/10/opinion/take-two-46-gender-effect

    I haven’t yet had time to look into the research behind the article…sounds very interesting but not so sure about the way they’ve used age-difference preferences in defining an individual’s “marriageable universe.” Anyhow, Susan and others, I’d be interested in what you think of it.

    • @david foster

      The sex ratio research is compelling! It suggests that social commentary, including the kind I engage in here, is going to have little effect on society. The good news is, we’re headed for 25 years of stability and moderation.

  • Crouchback

    david foster@70

    Guttentag’s book is from the 1980s but it’s worth checking out. Interestingly, Guttentag suggested Gen X (they weren’t calling us that yet) would see a relative surplus of men in the dating market due to declining birth rates. That may explain the views of some Gen X women and why they have trouble understanding why twentysomething women have any problems

  • Crouchback

    Mr Wavevector @38

    Hanna Rosin isn’t really all that liberal She was one of Mike Kelly’s proteges at the New Republic during its most conservative era. She hates Al Gore and it showed in her coverage during the 2000 election. She attributes the decline of working class men solely to their personal characteristics – supposedly they’d be doing well if they were as flexible as women. In general I’ve never seen evidence she genuinely gives a damn about anyone who wasn’t at least upper middle class.

    It’s a curious phenomenon, but from what I can see the feminists who are most hostile to men tend to be politically closest to the center. The more liberal feminists – Barbara Ehrenreich, Stephanie Coontz, the late Molly Ivins – show a lot more sympathy for men. There’s some underlying moral to that but it escapes me at the moment.

  • Bruce

    I mean if Susan never meets Mr. Hus her number gets way large and into double digits.

  • jack

    Susan-

    Many LTRs are simply FWB deals with a bit more emotional investment.
    Hypergamy still demands that the trade-up be made where possible.
    I know way too many women who regularly “cheat” on their boyfriends.

    They may have the soul of a slut even if their actual number does not reflect it, in other words.

    Nor are they selecting their college boyfriends using husband-material criteria. That in itself indicates nascent slut thinking.

    • Many LTRs are simply FWB deals with a bit more emotional investment.

      How do you know? And if true, what’s wrong with that? The difference between a committed relationship and FWB is the commitment, duh. So if people are willing to commit to one another, that speaks to a level of emotional intimacy and investment that makes the sex “not casual.”

      This notion that LTRs are the preferred form of female promiscuity ignores the fact that both young men and women want LTRs, they want real emotional intimacy. If you think LTRs are a step above slutting it up, you have to apply that judgment re promiscuity to both sexes.

  • Ian

    Reality BitesWe have all seen the handsome young man at the gym that has all the right moves and right attitude to be an Alpha – until his attractive girlfriend comes around. He then changes into an over-attentive, whipped shell of his former (wanna-be?) Alpha self – herding her around like a sheep dog…

    OT, but, decent observation. Men’s T-levels drop during courtship, they drop further when children are born, drop further in a relationship (unless juggling multiple women), orgasms increase (bitchy-hormone) prolactin and reduce T-receptors in brain areas related to male-specific behaviors. M’kay?

    T: Sun, weights, relaxation.
    O: Aly Khan (Imsaq), Daoist retention, Tantra, Karezza, Oneida. Aly Khan’s probably the most interesting to Game-Red Pillers, a Golden-Era Hollywood playboy.

  • OffTheCuff

    LTRs aren’t promiscuity, however, rolling through a new lover every 6-12 months, if a habit, is a safer way to screw around under the false pretense of LTR. Difficult to realistically call those LTRs. They might be monogamy, but not much else. It’s an interesting theory there, but I disagree on the amount of people who act this way, or ascribe any non-martial sex to promiscuity. Median N per year of age would be far higher if it were the case.

    • LTRs aren’t promiscuity, however, rolling through a new lover every 6-12 months, if a habit, is a safer way to screw around under the false pretense of LTR…I disagree on the amount of people who act this way

      I have never encountered or observed this strategy. It makes no sense. Young people are under pressure to avoid LTRs and take refuge under the false pretense of casual hookups. There is no incentive to pretend to be in a LTR – the culture considers that “low value.”

      Couples who date have to face a cultural bias, and while many relationships among kids in their late teens will dissolve within a year, that is normal and says nothing about the intention of the parties going in.

      Like the “alpha fux, beta bux” meme, the environmental conditions and incentives simply do not support the claim. The research in this post disproves the theory that people take cover in LTRs.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Crouchback;

    Hanna Rosin isn’t really all that liberal

    That would explain some of Philip Roth’s antipathy towards her. That plus the quality of her “research” is abominable. Really, her articles and book are little more than trend pieces.

    I think one of Roth’s issues is that her narrative of female ascendancy is at odds with the leftist narrative of female disempowerment.

    It’s a curious phenomenon, but from what I can see the feminists who are most hostile to men tend to be politically closest to the center.

    I would have to disagree with that. Most of the rad-fems are way out in the Marxist/communist/socialist left. There may be some set of classic liberal feminists who are more sympathetic to men.

    • @mr. wavevector

      I’d like to know more about Philip Roth’s opinion of Rosin. A quick search didn’t turn up anything. I’m a huge fan of Roth’s writing – he’s a brilliant thinker. Getting slammed by him for shoddy work would devastate me!

  • Holy Basil

    “OT, but, decent observation. Men’s T-levels drop during courtship, they drop further when children are born, drop further in a relationship (unless juggling multiple women), orgasms increase (bitchy-hormone) prolactin and reduce T-receptors in brain areas related to male-specific behaviors. M’kay?”

    “T: Sun, weights, relaxation.
    O: Aly Khan (Imsaq), Daoist retention, Tantra, Karezza, Oneida. Aly Khan’s probably the most interesting to Game-Red Pillers, a Golden-Era Hollywood playboy.”

    The Manosphere promotes doing things both natural and synthetic to
    “increase T levels”. They are obsessed with it in fact. But what is the point? Increased T levels means increased horniness. Unless one has at least one regular sex partner, increased horniness will result in increased frustration, anger and depression.

    Getting incels to increase their T levels is just going to create a sub-culture of lunacy.

    My culture advises men without sex partners, whether incel or volcel, to NOT increase their T levels so as to increase their contentment, happiness, and productivity in other areas of life. Certain foods and activities would be avoided during one’s celibate time of life, even if that time is years long or life long.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, re: 74, how do you distinguish between “commitment” in one case (LTR) and it’s lack in the other (FWB)? What’s the qualitative difference?

    • @Escoffier

      Susan, re: 74, how do you distinguish between “commitment” in one case (LTR) and it’s lack in the other (FWB)? What’s the qualitative difference?

      The FWB is understood to be a placeholder of sorts – a way of having less dangerous sex with a buddy until someone you’re really interested in comes along. At least that’s the way it works in theory. In actuality, one person almost always develops feelings for the other, wanting the FWB arrangement to progress to LTR. FWBs usually end either when one party gets interested in another party or when the truth about “catching feelings” comes out.

      The LTR is a statement that you have found that person, you’re not waiting to meet them. It’s a statement that you have feelings that go beyond the sexual – usually a feeling of falling hard for someone, though not always. Many LTRs occur when the casual hookup happens between two people who are open to a relationship, perhaps even hoping for one with each other from the start.

      It’s an agreement of exclusivity – indefinitely. Usually when people know there’s an expiration date looming – a semester abroad, summer break, graduation – they don’t make it official. Being exclusive without making the LTR commitment is known as being “together.”

      In short FWB is simply a mutual masturbation arrangement, no feelings permitted. LTR is the equivalent of “going steady.”

  • Susan

    Young people are under pressure to avoid LTRs and take refuge under the false pretense of casual hookups. There is no incentive to pretend to be in a LTR – the culture considers that “low value.”

    I agree with this. I was in a LTR through all four years of college, and I think the incentives are for a young person of the Millenial generation to swear off LTRs. Not only did I constantly get the message “it won’t last,” I also had people (both guys and girls) who would befriend me until they realized I was in a LTR, and then they’d disappear like I was toxic. It was isolating to be in a LTR in college, and I made very few friends because of it. The only people I was able to befriend were people who were also in LTRs, and they were often older and already out of college.

    Escoffier

    how do you distinguish between “commitment” in one case (LTR) and it’s lack in the other (FWB)? What’s the qualitative difference?

    I think the FWB case is such that your “status” is different. As I mentioned above, the incentives are not for young people to be in LTRs. You can tell that new cute/hot person that you’re “single.” You can still go out on weekends, go to parties, and make out with whoever you want. As a girl, you get a lot more attention and validation from guys when you’re “single.” As a guy, the benefits of a FWB are numerous and obvious, and I won’t recount them.

  • Holy Basil

    Gatekeeper, schmatekeeper.

    Both sexes are gatekeepers of their own bodies, lives and the amount of sex, emotional commitment, and financial resources they invest in another person.

    “how do you distinguish between “commitment” in one case (LTR) and it’s lack in the other (FWB)? What’s the qualitative difference?”

    FWB is supposed to be devoid of exclusivistic romantic expectations.

    They are friends who f*ck because neither are interested in a romantic monogamous relationship with each other, or perhaps with anyone, at that particular point in time.

    On the other hand it leaves both parties free to get involved with someone else in the even that either/or wants to.

    LTRs on the other hand are based on the exclusive romantic monogamous relationship model.

    There are romantic feelings involved and the relationship is closed, meaning neither one is on the look out for someone else.

    Generally people in LTRs are in the same to “see where this goes” as in “this could possibly lead to marriage a few years down the line”.

  • Abbot

    “Both sexes are gatekeepers of their own bodies, lives and the amount of sex…”

    The gatekeeper privilege only goes to the person who’s gate has an always-willing line of folks waiting to get through.

    .

  • mr. wavevector

    @Susan,

    I’d like to know more about Philip Roth’s opinion of Rosin. A quick search didn’t turn up anything.

    Nor will it! I meant Philip Cohen.

    Senior moment? 🙁

    • Nor will it! I meant Philip Cohen.

      Senior moment?

      Haha, glad I’m not the only one having them! That makes more sense – thanks for turning me on to PC’s blog btw – I subscribed.

  • Holy Basil

    “The gatekeeper privilege only goes to the person who’s gate has an always-willing line of folks waiting to get through.”

    So then what’s the meaning then of Susan’s and Obsidian’s idea that “men are the gatekeepers of commitment”?

  • Escoffier

    Hope,

    So, as a girl, when a guy asks “Are you single?” and you are in a FwB, you can say yes, but are you also obligated to disclose the FwB? Because to most guys it would seem to me that the relevant information is, “Are you having sex with anyone?”

    • are you also obligated to disclose the FwB?

      No, you’re not obligated to volunteer anything. DADT is the norm. The word “single” does not mean “not having sex with anyone.” It may well mean having sex with lots of different people!

  • Holy Basil

    “So, as a girl, when a guy asks “Are you single?” and you are in a FwB, you can say yes, but are you also obligated to disclose the FwB?”

    No. We are not “obligated” to disclose squat.

  • Abbot

    “…idea that “men are the gatekeepers of commitment”?

    When the line outside the gate consists of women ready and willing to offer commitment. A pervasive and common phenomenon. Men have no issue with that fact being known.

    Its is also common and pervasive that women are the gatekeepers of sex. But for some yet unexplained reason, women have an issue with that fact being known. Why is that?

    .

  • Both sexes are gatekeepers of their own bodies, lives and the amount of sex, emotional commitment, and financial resources they invest in another person.

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day…

  • Holy Basil

    “When the line outside the gate consists of women ready and willing to offer commitment. A pervasive and common phenomenon. Men have no issue with that fact being known.

    Its is also common and pervasive that women are the gatekeepers of sex. But for some yet unexplained reason, women have an issue with that fact being known. Why is that?”

    Total B.S.

    I’m not seeing any “lines” outside gates for either.

    The overwhelming majority of average men and women do not have people lined up to get sex or commitment from them.

    You speak as though everyone is some sort of peak Hollywood celebrity with endless options.

  • Lokland

    @MM

    “Both sexes are gatekeepers of their own bodies, lives and the amount of sex, emotional commitment, and financial resources they invest in another person.

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day…”

    No, I could set up a gate in my backyard, get a lil gate keeper uniform and demand tolls from people but I still wouldn’t make any money.

    Gate keeping without people demanding to get in the gate is just self righteousness on behalf of the lazy gate keeper.

    @Susan

    “I have never encountered or observed this strategy.”

    One of your focus group girls did exactly this. Never didn’t have a boyfriend for more than a few weeks.

    You say she is getting married (they were engaged so maybe are married now) to her current boyfriend.

    (This might also be the N=36 girl.)

    “Couples who date have to face a cultural bias, and while many relationships among kids in their late teens will dissolve within a year, that is normal and says nothing about the intention of the parties going in.”

    Actually no.
    If there were no bias in intent in the relationships we would see break ups being initiated approximately equally.

    (I’m assuming they are not equally initiated.)

    This lends to the idea that LTRs serve different purposes for men and women. (As does marriage.)

    • @Lokland

      One of your focus group girls did exactly this. Never didn’t have a boyfriend for more than a few weeks.

      You say she is getting married (they were engaged so maybe are married now) to her current boyfriend.

      (This might also be the N=36 girl.)

      Yes it is! I only knew her to have one BF before her fiancee, and it was long-distance. She was not a serial monogamist, just a plain old slut. BTW, it was her cell phone that made the rounds at one of my group dinners, showing off a pic of her boyfriend’s penis (erect) with a big blue bow tied around the base. That really ruined my appetite.

  • Escoffier, I think women are more likely to care about that information than men, to be honest. The guys usually would ask “do you have a boyfriend?” not “are you sleeping with anyone else?” That was my experience anyway.

    Perhaps this is because men want to know if there is a guy who considers the woman to be his, and the official girlfriend label is the way to find that information. Or maybe I was never asked the question because I had a boyfriend. Not sure if other guys ask this.

  • J

    From the Valenti article:

    When I pointed out the double standard, he explained his position thusly: If both women and men went around hooking up and having sex, society would be besieged by sexually transmitted diseases. It was up to women to be monogamous and sexually conservative in order to ensure that this wouldn’t happen. (Apparently men are incapable of such a feat.) The health of society, he argued, was dependent on women’s sexual decisions and relationship trends.

    It’s all cute until that cheating husband brings home a disease to his “monogamous and sexually conservative” wife. I’ve known a few women who got that unpleasant surprise in the form of herpes and HPV related cancer.

    • @J

      I’ve known a few women who got that unpleasant surprise in the form of herpes and HPV related cancer.

      Did you see that 5-10% new cases of lung cancer are thought to be caused by HPV? This gets scarier by the minute.

  • Holy Basil

    “If both women and men went around hooking up and having sex, society would be besieged by sexually transmitted diseases. ”

    Welcome to America. Here’s your Tofurky.

  • J

    Interesting article here on SWUGs: a Senior Washed-Up Girl. It really captures the lifecycle of the SMP compressed into the 4-year microcosm of college

    I’m somewhat confused by this article and the vehement reaction against it, especially from the middle-aged male Dalcrock and Spearhead commenters who actually felt the need to comment on a college site about it. As a mother of kids not much younger, I can attest to just how meaningful the opinions of the middle-aged are —NOT.

    The one clear thing to me is that Raisa Bruner now resents being held up as an example by Hannah Rosin. That’s fair enough and certainly someting Raisa Bruner has a right to protest. What I’m not getting is all the male hostility to her. At no point in the Rosin article or in her own piece does Raisa admit to being the carousel rider that the ‘sphere’s indulgence in schadenfreude (including a rather laughable swipe at the girl’s looks by a woman old enough to be her mom) would lead us to assume. Given the PI regarding the hook-up culture and the vagueness of the term “hook-up” itself, I think it’s horrid to assume that this girl is “all whored out” at 21. Her complaint is about being socially washed up and boyfriendless.

    If I had to make a prediction, though miserable now, Raisa and the rest of the senior girls will be back in the social swing in grad school or the work world and by 27 most will be married.

  • J

    Dalcrock

    fortuitous, not intentional

  • Holy Basil

    J, its DULLCOCK.

  • J

    I think this is the most important point. We have this rigid and unrealistic cultural expectation of male sexuality – the male as the insatiable pursuer – that just doesn’t fit the majority of men. And there is little space for young men to discuss alternatives to this model. As Frietas found in her interviews, they feel silenced and unable to express their vulnerability.

    I think this is sad. The push toward gender equity was supposed to allow men to share their feelings and be individuals.

  • Abbot

    “The push toward gender equity was supposed to allow men to share their feelings and be individuals.”

    They were doing far better with their “feelings” and certainly their individuality until this so-called “gender equity” self-serving agenda by certain groups with an axe to grind was pushed

  • Escoffier

    Hope:

    But wouldn’t the crucial issue in that case be whether the guy was looking for GF or not? That is, if he is, then he would want to know not just about her possible BF but also about a FwB arrangement too. If he is only looking for a H-U, then it makes sense that he would not care. But then he wouldn’t care either way, right? That is, does a guy looking only for a H-U care if the girl cheats on her BF? Maybe a super ethical guy would, but how many of those go around looking for H-Us?

    • That is, does a guy looking only for a H-U care if the girl cheats on her BF?

      Buss says that men who want STRs actually prefer to have them with women already committed to someone else. It makes it less likely they’ll become an annoyance.

  • Passer_By

    “That is, does a guy looking only for a H-U care if the girl cheats on her BF? ”

    Maybe if he’s an MMA fighter or a gangster.

  • Holy Basil

    “I think this is the most important point. We have this rigid and unrealistic cultural expectation of male sexuality – the male as the insatiable pursuer – that just doesn’t fit the majority of men.”

    That to Abbot. He thinks the majority of men are lining up at womens’ gates for sex.

  • Emily

    >> “If he is only looking for a H-U, then it makes sense that he would not care. But then he wouldn’t care either way, right? That is, does a guy looking only for a H-U care if the girl cheats on her BF? Maybe a super ethical guy would, but how many of those go around looking for H-Us?”

    I think the assumption is that most girls aren’t going to be cheating on their boyfriend. So if you’re looking up a hookup, girls in relationships are a waste of time.

  • Holy Basil

    ” BTW, it was her cell phone that made the rounds at one of my group dinners, showing off a pic of her boyfriend’s penis (erect) with a big blue bow tied around the base. ”

    Susan, I’m scheduled to be in Mass in June. Can I come to one of your group dinners?

    • Susan, I’m scheduled to be in Mass in June. Can I come to one of your group dinners?

      NO!

  • Holy Basil

    Susan, why not?! If you were willing to have coffee with Obsidian, why not dinner with moi?

    “We have all seen the handsome young man at the gym that has all the right moves and right attitude to be an Alpha – until his attractive girlfriend comes around. He then changes into an over-attentive, whipped shell of his former (wanna-be?) Alpha self – herding her around like a sheep dog…”

    PUH-LESE! I am so sick of this idea that showing romantic interest in and affection for one’s GIRLFRIEND of all people is being “whipped”.

    There’s a hate toward people in love in the Manosphere.

    Sour grapes.

    • @PJ

      Susan, why not?! If you were willing to have coffee with Obsidian, why not dinner with moi?

      I’ve never met Obsidian, not sure where you got that idea.

      He then changes into an over-attentive, whipped shell of his former (wanna-be?) Alpha self – herding her around like a sheep dog…”

      PUH-LESE! I am so sick of this idea that showing romantic interest in and affection for one’s GIRLFRIEND of all people is being “whipped”.

      The idea that demonstrating affection is beta and unattractive to women really is invalid. If a woman is with a man she is attracted to, his displaying commitment, especially in front of other people, is very gratifying. It’s part of the bonding process.

  • Escoffier

    But wouldn’t the crucial issue in that case be whether the guy was looking for GF or not? That is, if he is, then he would want to know not just about her possible BF but also about a FwB arrangement too.

    I don’t know what the guys are thinking in some of these cases. I’ve tried to ask guys who attempted to get girls to become their girlfriends, even though they already had boyfriends. No straight answer. I think it might be a perception that girlfriend-quality girls are hard to come by, combined with male competitiveness. The guy thinks even if she’s already involved with another guy, he can still win out over him.

    So perhaps the other reason for not caring about the FWB is that the guy thinks if he’s good enough, he can knock the other guy out of rotation. Since the other guy has no official status anyway, he doesn’t even need to get her to break up with him. He can just get her. A lot of young guys don’t care about the chastity thing.

  • @Loks

    Gate keeping without people demanding to get in the gate is just self righteousness on behalf of the lazy gate keeper.

    Her assertion was sound, for once: men and women have complete control over whom they let in, for whatever reason. Whether anybody wants to enter is another issue. That presupposes one’s worth is dependent upon X members of the opposite sex eagerly waiting in line, with you then having the choice of the best of the lot. Sounds like an employer taking interviews.

    I’ll only observe that most young people, male or female, probably don’t date or meet their mates in that fashion. Coincidence played a large part in how I met my wife. Though even when I was single, I can’t recall ever feeling that multiple women should be lined up all waiting for a shot with me…

  • Abbot

    “Whether anybody wants to enter is another issue. That presupposes one’s worth is dependent upon X members of the opposite sex eagerly waiting in line”

    That is exactly the basis for the supremely demented campaign promoting female sexual “empowerment.” Low hanging fruit dropping in the basket somehow equates to “expressing her sexuality” and “being the fully blossomed person she is today” all cutesy, smelling like baby powder and looking to dupe that last penis into something “more”

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “That really ruined my appetite.”

    Why? Was it an ugly or funny looking penis?

    • Why? Was it an ugly or funny looking penis?

      Yeah, kinda. But more to the point, there I was assembling my steak taco when this cell phone is thrust in front of me. And I’m looking at it and trying to figure out what it is…some sort of present, apparently…ARRRRGGGGHHHH!

  • Holy Basil

    “Gate keeping without people demanding to get in the gate is just self righteousness on behalf of the lazy gate keeper. ”

    So what, you’re suggesting that people who don’t have people lined up at their gates just open the floodgates to any and every body?!

    “But wouldn’t the crucial issue in that case be whether the guy was looking for GF or not? That is, if he is, then he would want to know not just about her possible BF but also about a FwB arrangement too.”

    That’s what “the talk” is for. But the talk doesn’t usually happen until the two have already been seeing each other anyway.

    I mean why would a guy want to make a girlfriend out of a complete stranger or someone he’s only known for a day or two? Get to know her, feel the vibes, and then have the talk if she’s still someone you think you may like to be exclusive with.

  • @ Susan
    I agree with what I think you’re saying – that FWB virtually always ends with one person developing feelings for the other that make the whole thing something other than FWB. For that reason I don’t think it’s ever a good idea, seductive as it seems in the abstract.

  • @SW

    Freitas, a theologian and a Catholic “despite everything,” does not feel that urging abstinence on college students is meaningful or effective. She believes this only really makes sense at the few evangelical colleges.

    I’ve read parts of a previous book she wrote, and this was the main theme. Other than a handful of truly religious universities, college students have totally divorced sex from whatever faith they may hold. Certainly a case study in how environment and marital reality trump any other considerations. Abstinence until marriage would only appeal to those who plan to marry young. A small minority, at least that’s what the statistics show.

    I’d love to see somebody do a thorough examination of the SMP (and related themes) at Catholic colleges. Given some of the ironies I’ve read about, methinks they’re mostly Catholic in name only…

    • I’d love to see somebody do a thorough examination of the SMP (and related themes) at Catholic colleges. Given some of the ironies I’ve read about, methinks they’re mostly Catholic in name only…

      The student newspapers at Notre Dame, Georgetown and BC all run articles about the culture of casual sex on campus. I know a bunch of kids who went to BC and hookup culture defines campus life as much as anywhere. However – it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that although the culture is prevalent, the percentage of kids hooking up is lower at some Catholic colleges.

      BC happens to be my parish, and that large church is basically full of students on Sundays at 5:30 Mass. My guess is that hooking up and church attendance are inversely correlated.

  • Emily

    This is anecdotal, but my observation of the Catholic SMP is that most of the guys will date non-Catholic girls (mainly because of the sex thing), although the more “liberal” Catholic girls will also have boyfriends and their dating lives will be fairly comparable to the average restricted college student.

    Out of the ultra conservative girls, the prettier ones will get into serious relationships and marry young. The plainer girls in this group are usually out of luck. I know a few of these girls who are panicked because they’re in their 20s and they’ve never kissed a guy, had a boyfriend or anything. As you can imagine, these dynamics are largely influenced by the lopsided sex ratio that tends to happen in religious circles.

  • OffTheCuff

    +1000 to PJ meeting Sue’s focus group. Do it! I want video.

    I mean, who cares about people who actually *have* functional long-term relationships, spanning decades? Losers!

  • Holy Basil

    “I’ve never met Obsidian, not sure where you got that idea.”

    I didn’t say you did! Just thought there was some banter about the two of you one day meeting for a mocha.

    (hee hee I couldn’t resist!!!)

    😉

  • @ Bhetti

    Bhetti, is that you?

  • Holy Basil

    “Why? Was it an ugly or funny looking penis?”

    Aren’t they all?

  • Anacaona

    I’ve known a few women who got that unpleasant surprise in the form of herpes and HPV related cancer.
    I had 5 faithful neighbors that died of AIDS back in the early 90’s from their hubbies other sexual relationships with other women.

  • @SW

    BC happens to be my parish, and that large church is basically full of students on Sundays at 5:30 Mass. My guess is that hooking up and church attendance are inversely correlated.

    Yep:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/58014267/The-Hook-Up-Culture-on-Catholic-Campuses-A-Review-of-the-Literature

    Yet, when church attendance is factored into the equation of religiosity and sexual behavior, we most often find that church attendance has a significant effect on decreasing the likelihood of engaging in hooking-up behavior. Susan Harris Eaves (2007) found that religious affiliation and church attendance had a negative effect on first intercourse, number of sexual intercourse partners, number of oral sex partners, and number of one-night stands.

    Freitas is a religion professor at BU. You ought to have a confab with her one of these days. She can give the spiritual perspective, you the business angle…

    • @Megaman

      I believe Freitas has left BU, last I heard she was visiting at Hofstra. She’s a funny mix of religious and feminist. I would love to sit down with her over a glass of wine and talk over some things. She’s a bit like Lisa Wade – another ardent feminist who is anti-casual sex.

      Freitas has some marketing savvy – she has become more willing to identify as feminist with this latest book. I think she’s smart – instead of alienating sex-positive feminists and fighting with them, she’s essentially silenced them by saying she’s all for what kids want, but that they don’t want to hook up.

  • Holy Basil

    Reading this makes me think of my male cousins who are in college now.

    http://yaledailynews.com/weekend/2013/03/29/swugnation/

    When I was a freshman, I took full advantage of that scene: I certainly thought there were plenty of fish in the college sea. Plus, all the attention was fun. Then, like many of my friends and peers, I slowly realized that “fun” wasn’t enough for me.

    “Sometime during sophomore year, her feelings changed,” Rosin writes of Tali. “She got tired of relation-ships that just faded away, ‘no end, no beginning.’ … When I asked Tali what she really wanted, she didn’t say anything about commitment or marriage or a return to a more chivalrous age. ‘Some guy to ask me out on a date to the frozen–yogurt place,’ she said. That’s it. A $3 date.”

    I’m 21 now; to be honest, I’d prefer to be taken out for a drink. But I — along with most of the women I spend time with, and many men here too — am farther from getting asked out on that drink than I was four years ago, when it wouldn’t have even been legal.

    You could say that being a SWUG has something to do with it.

    …..It’s confusing to be a young woman right now — especially if you buy into the traditional narrative of American womanhood. Are we supposed to “Lean In” with Sheryl Sandberg or resign ourselves to the fact that “Women Still Can’t Have It All,” per Anne-Marie Slaughter? Even The New York Times is heralding “The End of Courtship,” in a piece my concerned mother emailed to me. I think she wanted me to tell her the Times was wrong — but I realized I couldn’t”

    Ladies, courtship is not dead, you can still get your 3 dollar yogurt – but you have to target the foreign exchange students, immigrant students or students who are 2nd generation sons of immigrant parents.

    Students like my male cousins.

    They would be more than happy to romance and court and take out on dates American women.

    Why are they being overlooked?

    I also recommend becoming an exchange student yourself or taking a year off after you graduate college to travel and experience what men are like in other countries.

    CHIVALRY AND ROMANCE ARE NOT DEAD IN THE REST OF THE WORLD!

    (and they’re hotter looking too)

  • Holy Basil

    “I had 5 faithful neighbors that died of AIDS back in the early 90′s from their hubbies other sexual relationships with other women.”

    And those wives really believed their husbands when they told them they contracted the disease from other women?!

  • @SW

    Freitas has some marketing savvy – she has become more willing to identify as feminist with this latest book.

    A practicing Catholic feminist, no fan of the hookup scene, probably not in the “Catholics For Choice” camp. But she does have a legitimate beef:

    I wish that the Catholic hierarchy would stop treating Catholic women who speak out on women’s issues like pariahs. We’re not that scary or dangerous. We just want to find our way like everyone else. Enough said.

    That’s quite a tightrope to walk. She’s certainly no Wendy Shalit.

  • Holy Basil

    “White people generally don’t wanna fuck brown people, that’s why.

    I suppose they look hotter to you, hey, I can buy that. But to us, they have to be ridiculously hot (like Meagan Good) to be acceptable… and that obviously won’t work. It’s just easier to stay in-race.”

    So all the ex-patting and mail order bride “threats” coming out of the Manosphere is just that – posturing?

    Besides, who said anything about white or brown? I said FOREIGN MEN. Plenty of chivalrous, romantic foreign men are white. Where’s that French man who used to pop in here?

    When I was in Sicily, Spain and Belgium the men even took me home to meet their parents who insisted I spend the night and treated me like a family member.

    Its not just the men – even their parents are more chivalrous and romantic than the dead beats you meet over here.

  • SayWhaat

    White people generally don’t wanna fuck brown people, that’s why.

    Do you speak for all white people?

    • Do you speak for all white people?

      Wow. I apologize that OTC’s comment was up overnight. His frustration with PJ is no excuse for a very rude personal attack, also racist IMO.

  • Holy Basil

    I just read that for the first time in US history there were more non-white births than white births last year in 2012.

    If white Americans “don’t wanna fuck brown people” then they are going to have to ex-pat to Iceland or something.

  • OffTheCuff

    Troll: “So all the ex-patting and mail order bride “threats” coming out of the Manosphere is just that – posturing?”

    Probably! I don’t get that stuff. Plenty of fine white women right here.

    Say: “Do you speak for all white people?”

    All? Nah. But i would guess most, AFAICT.

    Of all the white guys I know, all of em, one or two of the nerdiest married Asians (Chinese, korean, etc).. One of my super-buff MMA expert friends married Malaysian. She’s really amazing.

    But Indian or African? Zero. Just none, not even close. I know Sassy has lots of white guys after her… but she ain’t married, is she?

    I’m not serious, BTW. As long as troll is here, I’ll troll too. So ignore everything I write. Mostly.

    • I’m not serious, BTW. As long as troll is here, I’ll troll too. So ignore everything I write. Mostly.

      Not funny. You crossed lines PJ hasn’t.

  • OffTheCuff

    Good point, the nonwhite folks will surely out-breed us stupid crackers! They’re way better at that stuff than we are. I can’t wait until I’m a minority!

  • SayWhaat

    But Indian or African? Zero. Just none, not even close. I know Sassy has lots of white guys after her… but she ain’t married, is she?

    No, but Anacaona is. As is PVW. Not to mention the other Indian/White interracial marriages I know of IRL.

    I’m not serious, BTW. As long as troll is here, I’ll troll too. So ignore everything I write. Mostly.

    I understand that, and this is one of the qualms I have with PJ – she stirs things up to such a point by boasting about our culture that she gets some other commenters to say some pretty racist things in retaliation, which makes me feel uncomfortable.

    That being said, you do have a tendency to extrapolate from your own limited worldview. I’m just cautioning you against it, it can be a pretty bad habit.

  • @ OTC,

    Should have thought about that before writing it. Don’t you feel stupid right now?!

    I see plenty of hot (or not) white guys marrying brown women all the time; must be a east coast/West Coast thing, more contact with the outside. Middle America has a lot to catch up.

    Regarding Sassy, I doubt she’s looking to get married tomorrow, and from what I gather those guys are always the ones forcing commitment so…

    Plus I have fresh personal anecdote that says white men are totally fine “intercoursing” brown women of all shades.

  • She did say foreign, immigrants, exchange and someone extrapolated based on his own prejudice. Reading comprehension and such trivialities…

  • OffTheCuff

    No doubt that’s her intent, so I’m just giving her what she wants, even I have to make things up out of whole cloth! I mean, who needs honesty and kindness and dialogue, you know, like Jackie and Olive? Useless!

    Ah. Life on the bottom of the SMP! White boys and brown girls. We all should be friends, instead of enemies, you’d think?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Chivalry is a code for knights. I aint a knight. And you ain’t a damsel.

  • SayWhaat

    I mean, who needs honesty and kindness and dialogue, you know, like Jackie and Olive? Useless!

    So the only honest and kind female commenters around here are the white girls?

    Life on the bottom of the SMP! White boys and brown girls.

    Speak for yourself.

  • OffTheCuff

    That’s quite a racist correlation you’re making there, not me. You’re plenty cool. As is Sassy.

  • J

    @wave #50

    Great post. It’s rare anyone takes the long view of these social trends.

    @SW

    Did you see that 5-10% new cases of lung cancer are thought to be caused by HPV? This gets scarier by the minute.

    I hadn’t, but yikes! First the head and neck cancers, now this. BTW, both of my sons are now vaccinated against HPV. They are the only such boys in our local clininc who are not the sons of doctors.

  • OffTheCuff

    Myself? I do OK for an SMV of -5. People even think my kids are cute! And white girls wanna bang me!

    • And white girls wanna bang me!

      The fact that a happily married father of three would say this is disturbing.

  • J

    I had 5 faithful neighbors that died of AIDS back in the early 90′s from their hubbies other sexual relationships with other women.

    Damn!

  • Lokland

    Ohh yeah troll wars!!
    5 bucks on PJ. (No hate OTC she is just infinitely more experienced.)

    ““White people generally don’t wanna fuck brown people, that’s why.”

    I do.
    I’ve actually only ever had sex with one white woman (two if we count my nutcase of a first girlfriend and that was short lived.)

    “korean”

    Hottest women on the planet.

  • Lokland

    @Susan wrt phone thing

    That sounds like an absolutely horrid situation.
    Kind of unsurprising that she is the way she is after hearing that.

    Also, I noticed your description of her has changed to be slightly less positive than it was previous.

    No more contact?

    • Also, I noticed your description of her has changed to be slightly less positive than it was previous.

      Really? I wasn’t aware of that – how so? She’s always been one of my least favorites, so I’m curious to know.

      She’s the one who told her bf her N was 6 instead of 36. Which is bad enough. But then she used “new math” to rationalize her count by omitting all sorts of sexcapades according to her own silly standards.

      It has been a while since I saw her. My most recent “sighting” was on Facebook, when she posted a photo of her manicured hand with a diamond ring on it. I thought that was obnoxious.

  • OffTheCuff

    PJ will definitely win. I’m trying to get banned first.

  • Holy Basil

    What is the likelihood of all 5 of those men getting AIDS from women? Come on, use your brain. Its called “the downlow” Stateside.

    Here’s a book all about it;

    http://www.amazon.com/Down-Low-Journey-Lives-Straight/dp/076791399X

  • Anacaona

    PJ will definitely win. I’m trying to get banned first.
    “Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”
    I’m not offended by your comment at all, but you are white and presumed sane you have a lot more to lose by Agreeing and Amplifying with THE TROLL TO RULE ALL THE TROLLS.
    I will do it since I’m brown myself, but I’m just bored to tears out of my mind of PJ’s crap. Sit this one out brother on annoyance, other battles are more worth it, YMMV.

  • OffTheCuff

    But *I’m* the pig, I’m sure. My whole life, that’s what I’ve been told!

    Well, the gin is wearing off, and I’m losing my motivation to get banned… I’ll see if I can do better some other time. But if you can take over, I sure appreciate it!

  • Holy Basil

    A Husband’s Betrayal: How His Wife Contracted HIV:

    “What would you do if you discovered your soul mate, the man you want to share your life—and your bed—with was sneaking out and having sex with other men?

    Until a few years ago, Bridget, a businesswoman who once worked for a powerful computing company, never thought she’d have to ask herself that question.

    ‘This hidden culture of men living a dangerous lie has ruined so many lives,’ Oprah says. ‘It’s broken up families and put so many women at risk.’

    In court documents, she’s only been known as Bridget B. But today, she’s coming forward for the first time to reveal her identity and open up about her ex-husband’s dangerous secret.”

    http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Why-Bridget-Sued-Her-Husband-for-12-Million-Dollars

    The Down Low

    “In April 2004, J.L. King introduced millions of Oprah Show viewers to the phrase “living on the down low.” During the show, J.L. opened up about the dirty little secret of men who have relationships with women but have sex with other men.

    Throughout his entire dating life and eight years of marriage, J.L. said he had sex with multiple male partners. Sometimes, these undercover encounters happened in his own home while his wife slept upstairs.”

    http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Free-From-Life-on-the-Down-Low

  • Anacaona

    Well, the gin is wearing off, and I’m losing my motivation to get banned… I’ll see if I can do better some other time. But if you can take over, I sure appreciate it!
    Sorry lot things to do, just take a walk, watch a movie…Things will be better someday we are lucky.

  • Jackie

    @OTC

    “White people generally don’t wanna fuck brown people, that’s why.”
    ===
    OTC, 🙁

    Dude, help me understand this. 🙁 I totally get the urge to have trolly flame wars, but why stoop to racism when there is a rich plethora of better topics to be mined? Cougarism alone would yield a most epic troll battle. 😉

    SayWhaat is super-beautiful (tons of guys are attracted to her!) and awesome and is supporting YOU in the GGC! She is also super-supportive of the rest of the girls around here, so when you hurt her, it hurts all of us. 🙁

    OTC, I know you meant it in jest, and maybe I read your tone wrong. IME, racist jokes are basically like dancing on a landmine– tricky even when they are done “right.”
    ===
    Here is the reason for my perspective, by the way: Before my parents were married, my dad did peace work in the inner city and other places with incredible racial tension. I later found out from his colleagues that he had been beaten, assaulted, and one time got his head smashed by some guy –I suppose the word would be “cracker”– wielding a board. He never said one word against his assailants.

    After he and my mom were married, they both continued to do more of the same together. They lived in a building with drug dealers and gun violence. The peripheral stories I would hear about this time in their lives are both super scary and kind of amazing. They were even more idealistic than I am 😉 and they did this because they dreamed of a better world for their children.

    So if I supported racism, even in jest, my dad wouldn’t be able to stand it and, if my mother was alive to see me, it would break her heart. Can’t we keep skin color out of it?

    Peace, OTC–

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan & Hope

    Young people are under pressure to avoid LTRs and take refuge under the false pretense of casual hookups. There is no incentive to pretend to be in a LTR – the culture considers that “low value.”

    I don’t necessarily disagree with you… but I from what I’ve seen at most of the schools I’ve been to, it’s not THAT bad.

    While hookup culture is the social paradigm, I haven’t really seen any open hostility to LTRs, or the thought that they make someone low value. If half of students are in relationships, they can’t be looked down upon that much.

    I could definitely see this varying by region, social circle, etc. though.

    The student newspapers at Notre Dame, Georgetown and BC all run articles about the culture of casual sex on campus. I know a bunch of kids who went to BC and hookup culture defines campus life as much as anywhere.

    I definitely agree. I have friends at all 3 schools, and several other Catholic colleges (went to a Catholic HS). When visiting, I’ve always come away thinking that none of them feel any different than a state school, culturally speaking.

    • @Jimmy

      I agree that most schools don’t have a culture that actually shames LTRs. I think it’s more a case of the STR-oriented types looking down on them, which is hardly surprising. Those kids dictate a lot of the rules about what’s cool, and their standards radiate outward to the rest of the student body.

  • Holy Basil

    “OTC, I know you meant it in jest, and maybe I read your tone wrong. IME, racist jokes are basically like dancing on a landmine– tricky even when they are done “right.” ”

    Jackie’s right. Plus, its been long established that I’m the only around here who can make racist jokes and get away with it.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J #50,

    If I had to make a prediction, though miserable now, Raisa and the rest of the senior girls will be back in the social swing in grad school or the work world and by 27 most will be married.

    I agree. That’s why I called it a microcosm; everything will change after college. The SWUGs are only “old” in the context of the college scene – they will soon be the pretty young things in the adult dating scene. They will be restored to a position of sexual power for a while, while the senior boys will stripped of theirs. The smart ones will capitalize on that value, before it starts to decline again.

    I didn’t read the Dalrock or Spearhead commentary on this. But what struck me was the contradictions between the feminist ideology she is still committed to and the unhappiness she feels for the consequences of that ideology in her own life. That makes a big target for someone with an axe to grind.

  • mr. wavevector

    Whoops. That should have been @J, #96

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J #99,

    I think this is sad. The push toward gender equity was supposed to allow men to share their feelings and be individuals.

    @ Abbot # 101,

    They were doing far better with their “feelings” and certainly their individuality until this so-called “gender equity” self-serving agenda by certain groups with an axe to grind was pushed

    Male socialization is as much about controlling one’s feelings as expressing them. One of the male techniques for controlling one’s feelings is by controlling the social environment – in an environment governed by rules, traditions, and ceremonies, one’s feelings are more predictable and hence more controllable.

    Men used to have a lot of fraternal orders and all-male social spaces where creating this type of environment was possible. Few men have those now. Instead we have social chaos. That creates a lot feelings that many men are poorly equipped to express or control.

  • Esau

    Susan at 166, re the departed Olive: “The guys just feel that way because she was a mea culpa female.

    Hmm. Is this some new shaming category?

  • I downloaded this book after Susan mentioned it here. Interesting stuff so far. Here was a passage that jumped out at me:

    “The portrait of college men as having lots of sex and not caring about what they did the night before is common, but finding that stereotypical college guy is more difficult than one might think. I did encounter a few in my interviews. All of them were strikingly similar: good-looking, charismatic, popular, a number of them athletes. The most significant characteristic tying them all together, though, was not a veneer of ‘guyness’, but the fact that their ‘guyness’ went all the way through to their cores. These were the young men who didn’t feel unease with guy culture. Instead, they celebrated and reveled in it.”

    I think that this is an important insight and that Freitas misses an opportunity here. Her implied reaction is to say that female sexuality norms and preferences should be the default for both genders, so there must be something wrong with a man who is too “at ease with guy culture”.

    Freitas expresses sadness that good-looking, high-status jocks are setting the standard for masculine performance, contributing to the death of dating, etc., but is this really surprising? If the BMOC types with the most options are favoring a certain option, wouldn’t we expect that decision/incentive package to be worth unpacking?

    It occurred to me that Freitas may equate guy culture with douche or
    asshat behavior and dismiss it as the province of Dark Triad freaks, when perhaps she could have confronted the (admittedly more troubling from
    her POV) alternative theory that many—certainly not all, but many—0f
    the men sitting on the sidelines and complaining about the casual sex culture would in fact quite like to be in the “alpha” pole position in the
    campus SMP and enjoying the attendant treats and special privileges.

    Thoughts?

  • Escoffier

    The definition of “guy culture” in this case would seem to be decisive. Because that can be good, bad, or neutral.

    I recall a piece from years back by a prof somewhere or other called “wimps and barbarians”. His thesis was that college boys (you can’t justly call them men) fell broadly into two camps. More numerous were the wimps, our “beta” doesn’t really quite capture what he was getting at, more that they were reticent and hesitant to the point of self-obliviation. The barbarians were the frat-bros and such who did indeed manifest many traditionally masculine traits but without any leavening by civilization, a concept they scoffed at (to the extent they were aware of it, which was not much). What he did not find were “men” in any traditional sense, with masculine virtues coupled with civilzational betterment, in the purpose of something higher than brute strength and raw pleasure.

    A long long time ago one of my college roommates and best friends, about halfway through school, joined the rowdiest frat on campus, which I called “the Hun.” He loved the moniker and used to say it of himself and the bros proudly. This was a house so bad that they eventually lost their charter and got kicked off campus. And this was a very smart guy. He grew up actually and married a good girl and has three kids. (I’m having lunch with him today as it happens.) Some people can swim in the cesspool for fun, get out, take a shower and be no worse off. The ones with, let us call it, high human capital. But not everyone can. Limiting the size of and participation in the cesspool would seem to be a good idea for civilization, not that we will ever try to do that again.

    • @Escoffier, @Bastiat Blogger

      I haven’t read Freitas’ book yet, so I don’t know exactly how she defines guy culture, but it sounds like BB is equating it with “bro culture.” In reality, as Esco points out, there’s a large gap between wimp and barbarian, or bro.

      What he did not find were “men” in any traditional sense, with masculine virtues coupled with civilzational betterment, in the purpose of something higher than brute strength and raw pleasure.

      This is perhaps the problem – a bifurcation of the male population into a coarsened, jaded, narcissistic group (small) and a much larger group of men who feel considerable unease as guys. The good-looking, charismatic, athlete is highly incentivized to become part of the former group – as is perhaps the case with Esco’s roommate and Bastiat himself. These “benevolent alpha” types can indeed graduate, shower off and take the high road without sacrificing opportunities.

  • Not funny. You crossed lines PJ hasn’t.

    Alcohol detected! Ironic, considering it’s probably the primary driver of the hookup scene.

  • JP

    “Just because I’m not commenting doesn’t mean I’m not reading.”

    Just because I’m commenting it doesn’t mean that I’m not filing lawsuits.

  • JP

    “Ohh yeah troll wars!!
    5 bucks on PJ. (No hate OTC she is just infinitely more experienced.)”

    OTC isn’t properly trained in blog commenting.

  • JP

    In fact, I’m kind of non-motivated this morning, so I’m going to draft a nice complaint this morning.

    Ok.

    First thing I need to do is find the corporate headquarters for employer.

    Shouldn’t be too hard.

  • Escof, that’s very intriguing. Was this prof maintaining that a man should consider the best interests of civilization itself when making a decision re: getting drunk, a casual sex opportunity, etc., or did he feel that those interests should be protected via some type of rules-enforcement process?

    I found aspects of the Freitas argument unconvincing because it essentially eliminates the desirable and attractive correlates of the males who are quite happy with hook-up culture. If you do this, I think you can lose some explanatory power; it just looks like some random subculture of students is forcing other students to pretend to want casual sex when in fact they hate
    it. It is almost as if the campus SMP could just as easily have been controlled by the debate team or SGA Monarchists.

    • I found aspects of the Freitas argument unconvincing because it essentially eliminates the desirable and attractive correlates of the males who are quite happy with hook-up culture. If you do this, I think you can lose some explanatory power; it just looks like some random subculture of students is forcing other students to pretend to want casual sex when in fact they hate.

      She acknowledges those students – the kings and queens of the school. But I think she attributes the culture to much larger forces, most notably popular culture/media.

      The influence is coming from outside the campus entirely, it’s just students on campus self-select (or are selected) into the population that’s happy with the status quo, vs. those who don’t find it rewarding.

      There’s also a fairly large percentage of women in sororities who are disillusioned – they didn’t realize when they pledged that they’d signed up for hooking up with random frat rats. Some of the sorority girls at college wind up sitting out the scene entirely. This isn’t surprising, as they often include very pretty girls, who are loathe to sell themselves short. They’d love it if Freitas’ guy charmers would go for the LTR, but they realize that’s not happening.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Escoffier,

    I recall a piece from years back by a prof somewhere or other called “wimps and barbarians”.

    I’ve noticed the same thing. I attribute it to the cultural shaming and suppression of masculinity. The majority of men are compliant enough to submit to these forces, and become wimps. Those who aren’t compliant rebel against them and go the opposite direction.

    What’s been lost in our culture is the concept of positive masculinity – one that exhibits strength and assertiveness on one hand, and kindness and respectfulness on the other. That was the old concept of a gentlemen by conduct. But masculine strength and assertiveness has been demonized as “oppressive”. So now instead of gentlemen, we have wimps and barbarians, nice guys and jerks.

  • Escoffier

    My recollection of the piece was he lamented a general cultural decline, and also the lack of external restraints. Both of which are mutually reinforcing.

    RE: males who don’t like H-U, I suspect the issue is more complicated than she admits. That is, I have no doubt that the basic fact is correct, the majority of campus males hate it. Hell, I would have hated it myself. But the roots of that hate are complicated. By nature, that is, by brute physical nature, the average young man—really, the overwhelming majority of young men—want to have as often as they can with as many hot chicks as they can. Only a fraction can achieve anything close to this. The ones who can’t and who look on at those who can naturally feel pangs of envy, which they convert into dislike of the whole scene. Let’s call that the low motive.

    The higher motive is the one that Susan points out, which is that even hormonally deranged young men are still human and they desire an emotional connection. H-U culture throws up obstacles to achieving that connection.

  • @BB

    Thoughts?

    I don’t know what Freitas means by “guyness”, but if the pool she’s referring to is essentially good-looking, typically Greek, relatively high N college guys, to me that sounds like a medieval artisan guild. And like any guild, they closely restrict membership to only the most “talented” males, and then go about protecting their interests and exploiting the market. There’s really no pretense of that kind of lifestyle being open to the average college guy, which is in contrast to Hefner’s “Playboy Philosophy” (i.e. any man can be like me, just buy my magazines and go to my clubs).

    The similarities between guilds, secret societies, and fraternities is certainly well-documented. I think I read somewhere that pledges and rituals tend to have homo-erotic undertones? Never been in one, myself.

    • . I think I read somewhere that pledges and rituals tend to have homo-erotic undertones?

      The history of frats is very interesting. Originally, most of them were formed by gay men. When dating took hold in the 1920s, straight males found them a convenient way of socializing and meeting women. However, the process is such that they were in the position of choosing men women would find attractive – they had to objectively assess the attractiveness of other males. Ultimately, this created a strong desire to prove “no homo.”

      Today, there are several practices that are indeed homoerotic, not just during pledging. For example, Michael Kimmel found in his research for Guyland that frat brothers often watched porn together. Sometimes they suppress their arousal in front of one another, sometimes they circle jerk.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t see that the guild analogy works because there are plenty of non greek guys who still live as players. The Greeks certainly exclude based on their own criteria but they can’t stop various non-Greek “alphas” from getting pussy. They don’t have that level of control over the demand or the supply side of the product, as it were.

    The Greek issue is more one of being the most visible and setting the overall tone.

  • JP

    “RE: males who don’t like H-U, I suspect the issue is more complicated than she admits. That is, I have no doubt that the basic fact is correct, the majority of campus males hate it. Hell, I would have hated it myself. But the roots of that hate are complicated. By nature, that is, by brute physical nature, the average young man—really, the overwhelming majority of young men—want to have as often as they can with as many hot chicks as they can. Only a fraction can achieve anything close to this. The ones who can’t and who look on at those who can naturally feel pangs of envy, which they convert into dislike of the whole scene. Let’s call that the low motive.

    The higher motive is the one that Susan points out, which is that even hormonally deranged young men are still human and they desire an emotional connection. H-U culture throws up obstacles to achieving that connection.”

    I think I was in college looking for enlightenment.

    Apparently, that’s not why most people are there.

  • I don’t see that the guild analogy works because there are plenty of non greek guys who still live as players.

    In college, on campus? How many? Do we even know?

    Susan’s provided statistics on Greek vs. non-Greek N. Doesn’t that group tend to be the most highly active in the hookup scene?

  • Escoffier

    Maybe, but Susan also notes that musicians, actors, artsy types and various “hipsters” also do very well and these guys are anathema to the Greek scene (as the Greek scene is to them).

    The guilds literally control who got access to certain resources and who could work in a given field. The frats just can’t do that. What they CAN to is bestow status, or more status, on certain guys. I’m sure that helps some on the margins to get laid but most of these guys are so fratty-alpha-douche anyway that even if they didn’t pledge, or if they went to a non-Greek campus, they’d be apex males anyway.

    What the frats can’t do is prevent competitor males with attraction cues that the frats lack from getting girls. Nor can they control the behavior of the girls.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    They cannot directly control behavior of the girls, but if Greeks are largely interacting with other Greeks, that status bump means control over the social environments where a guy could interact with Greek girls.

    Which is very much a guild-based concept.

    The other guys are niche providers in an oligopolistic market where there is strong “brand loyalty” among the consumers.

  • Escoffier

    True but I assume that non-Greek guys take it for granted that they have no shot at Greek girls. The very act of joining a sorority is as much as to declare that “I’m only going to get together with Greek guys.”

    The Greek guys, otoh, have absolutely no hesitation about fishing in the non-Greek pond. They may have an advantage there but hardly a monopoly.

    • The Greek guys, otoh, have absolutely no hesitation about fishing in the non-Greek pond. They may have an advantage there but hardly a monopoly.

      In my experience, and in Zach’s more recently, the Greek scene is very insular. It’s very, very rare for Greek guys to go outside the system – their status doesn’t go as far, the girls are not in any convenient crew they socialize with, and they probably see the Greek girls as far more likely to hook up no strings.

  • J

    I didn’t read the Dalrock or Spearhead commentary on this. But what struck me was the contradictions between the feminist ideology she is still committed to and the unhappiness she feels for the consequences of that ideology in her own life. That makes a big target for someone with an axe to grind.

    You didn’t have to; many of those guys commented on Raisa’s original article.

    As to her attitude toward feminism, the girl is between a rock and a hard place. I followed some links to her personal high school age blog. This is a young woman who has been groomed by parents/grooming herself to be a big success since childhood. That really does mean putting off a committed relationship while young. She probably won’t commit until grad school or early career because getting really involved now means heartbreak when she and the guy go their separate ways after graduation. Nonetheless, the heart wants what it wants. This a young adult of prime reproductive age; she’s in her peak years for craving a relationship.

    One of the male techniques for controlling one’s feelings is by controlling the social environment – in an environment governed by rules, traditions, and ceremonies, one’s feelings are more predictable and hence more controllable. Men used to have a lot of fraternal orders and all-male social spaces where creating this type of environment was possible.

    That’s an interesting point. My husband tends to be a lone wolf, but in the past few years I’ve watched my son’s integrate themselves into several all-male activities. Watching from the sidelines, it’s apparent to me how much men need that. There was a big pressure to allow women into fraternal orders because they are also the places where men make business connections, but I do think there need to be some male only spaces where you guys can cut loose.

  • J

    Is this some new shaming category?

    This is not a comment about Olive, but there is a type of woman who haunts the ‘sphere blogs and complains about how much other women ostracize her and of how most other women are bitches, whores or shrews. There is a tone of ingratiating one’s self with the guys by presenting one’s self as “the one good woman” often through cherry-picking one’s way through the news and writing blog posts condemning abberant behavior while claiming its typical of most women. In the meantime, women who can relate well to at least some other women see through this behavior in a way that men don’t.

    Again, I am not speaking to Olive’s situation. I think that she is too young to categorize in this way and that her social issues with other women may just be a function of school cliquey-ness. However, when you hear 30-50 year old women complaining that they have no female friends except for the rest of the ‘sphere’s ladies auxilliary, there’s an issue.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Regarding wussies and barbarians on college campuses,

    Is the system actually conducive to creating strong men?

    Or asked more…uhh…aggressively…

    Do schools WANT strong men?

    I guess they would..if they were entirely polished. I really have to compare it back to pick-up in general and Alpha: everyone wants the Alpha, as long as he is the Benevolent Alpha, and everyone wants the Beta, as long as he has oodles of confidence…to such an extent that these two groups of men largely resemble each other and nothing like an actual young American male.

    Actual young boys, if you “empower” them, are going to act like little monsters sometimes. And they are going to make a mess. And they are going to test boundaries.

    Basically, a lot of young, future-strong men are not going to act like Prince Charming…they are going to act like Genghis Khan, at least for a period, until they calm down.

    But if you slather on lesson after lesson about “niceness,” well…what do you expect is going to happen? And if you don’t take the effort AFTER that, to HELP young boys define their strength and test boundaries, well, again, what do you expect?

  • Escoffier

    ADBG, I think the obvious answer to your question is “no,” which explains a great deal about how education is conducted in this country (and elsewhere).

  • Lokland

    @J

    “In the meantime, women who can relate well to at least some other women see through this behavior in a way that men don’t.”

    No its obvious.
    But deference is deference.

    These women made excellent friends/lovers because they were totally compliant.

  • Jackie

    @Susan, Olive

    I’m not good enough with words to say this the right way, but can we focus on each other’s strengths? We need to save our strength for what’s happening out there in the world. 😉

    Olive is incredibly insightful with many aspects of analysis. I think she would be an amazing consultant, re: workplace social dynamics. Besides that, being in grad school and then needing a break for a health situation is something many of us have never had to deal with. It is really hard when you are under that much stress.

    I probably have different viewpoints that O. (especially in regards to therapists, etc) but I have to admire her.

    Susan *is* kind. She was so giving and kind to me when I thought my Dad was going to die. And I can never forget that. NEVER. I will be a white knight like Brienne of Tarth for her. (Even though she is not like Catelyn, exactly. Though it would make her son Robb or Jon Snow. 😉 Anyway I digress!)

    Let’s work for peace in the HUS. 🙂

    • Ugh, my apologies for falling into OTC’s drunken trap to get the women bitching at each other. I’m going to delete my earlier comment.

      Thank you Jackie for reminding me of an appropriate standard.

  • J

    These women made excellent friends/lovers because they were totally compliant.

    If that’s what you are looking for……but I’d say that’s a choice that defines a man as much as it defines the woman he chooses.

  • J

    Peej, new name again?

  • J

    It occurred to me that Freitas may equate guy culture with douche or
    asshat behavior and dismiss it as the province of Dark Triad freaks, when perhaps she could have confronted the (admittedly more troubling from
    her POV) alternative theory that many—certainly not all, but many—0f
    the men sitting on the sidelines and complaining about the casual sex culture would in fact quite like to be in the “alpha” pole position in the
    campus SMP and enjoying the attendant treats and special privileges.

    That’s probably the case, but I resent that asshat behavior has become the gold standard for “guy culture.” Many men do not feel at ease in that culture, not because it’s been shamed–on the contrary it’s often celebrated, but because it’s just not them. Some men are just too smart, too sensitive, too nerdy, too unathletic, too spititual or whatever to fit into that slot. There are many different sorts of men in the world and should be respected.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Susan, I grew up with a 10th-degree black belt troll, my Norma Desmond grandmother, and it’s the easiest thing to react to them. (She was epic, too. The ones where she tried to get me to drop out of high school to be her servant set the entire family in a multi-squabbling battle.)

    It’s like a fire needing oxygen, unfortch. 🙁 And they are world-class crap stirrers, the more people they splatter the better (in their minds).

    Anyway, OTC stays outta the gin and we’ll go back to fighting the Dark Triad. 🙂

    • @Jackie

      (She was epic, too. The ones where she tried to get me to drop out of high school to be her servant set the entire family in a multi-squabbling battle.)

      She tried to make you into a real life Cinderella?

      Did your parents try to limit her exposure to you kids? It seems like her effect was toxic.

  • Sassy6519

    But Indian or African? Zero. Just none, not even close. I know Sassy has lots of white guys after her… but she ain’t married, is she?

    Not yet, but I’m fairly certain that the man I marry will be white. They are the men that chase me down the most, so the odds are in their favor.

    Regarding Sassy, I doubt she’s looking to get married tomorrow, and from what I gather those guys are always the ones forcing commitment so…

    Yes, and I’m always the person to end whatever relationship I’m in. I’ve never had to beg for commitment, so this brown woman must be doing something right. 😀

    @ OffTheCuff

    I understand that you were being snarky in order to counter-troll PJ. With that being said, your comment seemed to have caused quite the stir while I was away.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “There are many different sorts of men in the world and should be respected.”

    Why?
    Just because they exist?

    Wouldn’t it be more effective to choose a singular male type that benefits a certain goal and then ruthlessly shame all men who are not that type?

    Thats what we are doing now with hookup culture.
    Look at how well its keeping everyone conformed to a singular standard (however unattainable/desirable it may be).

  • Maggie

    @Susan
    “There’s also a fairly large percentage of women in sororities who are disillusioned – they didn’t realize when they pledged that they’d signed up for hooking up with random frat rats.”

    Is this pretty much the case? My daughter is thinking about rushing this fall when she goes away to college. She’s pretty social and I think her main goal is to make friends. She’s also interested in volunteer work and service within a sorority. Do they even do that anymore?

    @J
    ” In the meantime, women who can relate well to at least some other women see through this behavior in a way that men don’t.”

    Yes! I stay as far away from these women as possible.

    • @Maggie

      Is this pretty much the case? My daughter is thinking about rushing this fall when she goes away to college. She’s pretty social and I think her main goal is to make friends. She’s also interested in volunteer work and service within a sorority. Do they even do that anymore?

      She can definitely find that, but it won’t be true of every sorority. My daughter pledged one that was very selective, and that turned out to mean very social with frats. Even though they were known as the campus prudes (they were spoofed by another sorority dressing as nuns), the male population was very heavily weighted towards cads and players. Instead of SWUGs, those girls were FBUGs (Freshmen benched until graduation). There were other sororities who seemed to cultivate more of an all-girl experience.

      She made great lifelong friends there, though, and did quite a bit of work in the community. It’s also been great for networking. Her feelings about the experience are mixed.

  • Butter Naan

    “Peej, new name again?”

    Julie, had to. The comment didn’t get through with Holy Basil.

  • Butter Naan

    About those women who claim they have no female friends and prefer the company of men as friends? Highly suspect.

  • J

    @Lokland #203

    You’re being sarcastic, right?

    @Maggie

    Yes! I stay as far away from these women as possible.

    Yeah, I don’t quite get these women. I mean, I personally am a bit of an outlier and have never been one of the A list gals. Nonetheless, I have always been able to find at least a few similar enough women to have a BBF and a few close friends. I can’t fathom what sort of personality attracts zero female friends. It can’t be just being an outlier. Outliers can still find other outliers. There has to be some other issue.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Lokland

    Why?
    Just because they exist?

    Wouldn’t it be more effective to choose a singular male type that benefits a certain goal and then ruthlessly shame all men who are not that type?

    Thats what we are doing now with hookup culture.
    Look at how well its keeping everyone conformed to a singular standard (however unattainable/desirable it may be).

    Because it isn’t productive.
    See: hook-up culture.
    In reality, there are a lot of archtypes of men that are useful to society, and men should feel proud of themselves as long as they are contributing. It also doesn’t make sense to bash a diverse set of people for not adhering to a single stereotype, when they would never be able to, considering how diverse they are.
    What really need to do is just stop encouraging dumb-assery.
    Unfortunately, a lot of people can speak the thing that I just said, and…go right back to the dumb-asses in practice. Like a company talking about how important its “human capital” is, and “diversity,” then hiring a bunch of ex-banker money-thugs to run the company exclusively.

  • Lokland

    @J, ADBG

    “You’re being sarcastic, right?”

    No.

    “In reality, there are a lot of archtypes of men that are useful to society, and men should feel proud of themselves as long as they are contributing. It also doesn’t make sense to bash a diverse set of people for not adhering to a single stereotype, when they would never be able to, considering how diverse they are.
    What really need to do is just stop encouraging dumb-assery.”

    You already gave the rather simple solution.
    Instead of shaming men who cannot get laid like tile and celebrating those who do move into a system that shames men who are unproductive–> Jersey Shore types (5 minutes of that show and funniest thing ever…wife asked me if we had any razor blades…that or turn it off).

    Find the one common theme that unites whatever the purpose you want to promote is and do that.

    Or choose the singular best men for that cause and shame all others.

  • Bells

    @Maggie,

    My daughter is thinking about rushing this fall when she goes away to college. She’s pretty social and I think her main goal is to make friends. She’s also interested in volunteer work and service within a sorority. Do they even do that anymore?

    At my school, there’s a minimum amount of volunteer hours that is required from all the Greek chapters. Not sure about the protocols for other colleges. But if she really wants to do volunteer work, there should be at least one large organization that is focused on notifying students of all possible volunteer opportunities.

    Maybe your daughter should hold off on rushing until she gets to know the sorority system (and the rumors behind them) a bit better. As a wide-eyed incoming freshman, she might feel more inclined to join the most popular sorority that could have a bad reputation.

    And why not think about clubs and/or sport teams? There’s a ton of options that also ensures a large social life

  • Anacaona

    Really? I wasn’t aware of that – how so? She’s always been one of my least favorites, so I’m curious to know.
    I think you used to close your comments about her with “I feel so sorry/protective of her” and used to call her ‘one of my girls’ you don’t do that anymore, so it sounds like you don’t hold it in the same standard.
    I also think that sometimes you state facts but don’t add any qualifier “this is bad, good, I wish it was not true…” so sometimes we read what WE feel you are saying and not what YOU feel when typing it. Hence lots of confusion of what you approve, celebrate or despise, YMMV.

    Hmm. Is this some new shaming category?
    Not really this is the counter argument of NAWALT. Since she is saying that AWALT we are trying to make sure that we say the opposite since guys since to use her testimony as the truth and our testimony as lies or outliers of sorts.

    0f
    the men sitting on the sidelines and complaining about the casual sex culture would in fact quite like to be in the “alpha” pole position in the
    campus SMP and enjoying the attendant treats and special privileges.
    Thoughts?

    Horny guys projection myth. There is an spectrum as shown here many times. Not all guys envy the Greeks and not all guys despise them out of envy some really think they are dumb fucks and so the women that like them, YMMV.

    Basically, a lot of young, future-strong men are not going to act like Prince Charming…they are going to act like Genghis Khan, at least for a period, until they calm down.
    This are extremes as well. A regular guy knows what boundaries are safe to push and what shouldn’t be touched with a tenth foot pole depending on the culture. There are plenty of men between Prince Charming and Genghis Khan

    These women made excellent friends/lovers because they were totally compliant.

    This women are deferential to EVERY MALE in close proximity out of the virtue that they have a penis hence he is superior to me. If I recall right men don’t want to be taken as the same as their competitors but better. No to mention this women SEEK validation from additional males aside from their mates thus one male to submit is not enough for their psyche. If she thinks all men are superior to her be default then she submitting to one for whatever reason doesn’t has that much merit, don’t you think?

    • @Anacaona

      I think you used to close your comments about her with “I feel so sorry/protective of her” and used to call her ‘one of my girls’ you don’t do that anymore, so it sounds like you don’t hold it in the same standard.

      Actually, that’s another girl, also with very high N. 🙁 She is a much more sympathetic character. This particular one I’ve always ridiculed because of her 36 —> 6 hamsterwheeling.

      I also think that sometimes you state facts but don’t add any qualifier “this is bad, good, I wish it was not true…” so sometimes we read what WE feel you are saying and not what YOU feel when typing it. Hence lots of confusion of what you approve, celebrate or despise, YMMV.

      OK, good to know. Honestly, often times I’m not even interested in rendering a judgment. I’m considerably more lenient than some readers here, so I know there won’t be consensus. Lokland has shared some pretty strict standards in the past, which is his right of course. I probably don’t know any young women who would clear his hurdles. *shrug*

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “She tried to make you into a real life Cinderella?”
    ===
    Ha! She tried, but even then I knew she was completely full of crap. 😎 It’s really interesting you bring this up, as I am continuing through some issues with anger about this. (As in, it’s on my appt tomorrow.)

    I am much, much stronger than my mom was. They had such a complex relationship: She was her only child, her father had died, my grandmother had been manipulating her hardcore since birth.

    My mom was a *lot* gentler than I am in many ways. She tried SO HARD to please her mother, to be worthy and to somehow earn her love. (Impossible with a narcissist.) She was more delicate and breakable that I have ever been.

    I remember even when she was dying, and my grandmother said cancer was “all in her head.” My dad would try to throw Norma out of the house, but my mom would defend her and *still* hope to be comforted as a daughter. It is so messed up, to love and yearn for the acceptance of an abusive parent after years and years. But she (my mother) was doing the best she could, and if she could have done better, she would have.

    My dad had made a pretty clean break (probably the ONLY way he could have at that time in life) by completely removing himself from profound dysfunction as a teenager, though he removed himself from society as we know it as well. He was able to let a lot her crap roll right off his back, and just kind of ignored her, or incensed her by pretending “not to get it.”

    (Example by story: When he was going to ask for my mother’s hand in marriage, her father had already passed away. So he called my grandmother on the phone: She hung up on him. He was like, NBD, must be a bad connection.

    So, he went to her place of work, to tell her in person. She threw him out, right in front of the customers and everybody. Finally, my mom invited her to dinner, at a restaurant at the top of a hotel, where they tried to drop the bomb on her.

    She said, If you two get married, I’m going to jump out this window! (My dad’s reply under his breath, Promises, promises!)

    Norma did not speak to her only child for months and months, until the very week before the wedding. I cannot even imagine how this must have tore my mom up.

    In retrospect, my mom needed a good therapist so badly to learn how to manage life with a narcissist. There was so much hardcore gaslighting, since everyone who knew Norma superficially LOVED her and couldn’t imagine why there would be any problems at all.

    Basically, I was born into this family to break the chains. 🙂

  • J

    Ha! She tried, but even then I knew she was completely full of crap. ,/i>

    That can be a tremendous ace in the hole. I didn’t figure that out about my N mother until I was in my 30s. By then, the damage had been done.

    I am much, much stronger than my mom was. They had such a complex relationship: She was her only child, her father had died, my grandmother had been manipulating her hardcore since birth.

    Yet your mom was apparently strong enough to live with that burden; don’t sell her short.

    Basically, I was born into this family to break the chains.

    That is a great and positive attitude. You’ve been very proactive in dealing with all this.

  • @SW

    This is perhaps the problem – a bifurcation of the male population into a coarsened, jaded, narcissistic group (small) and a much larger group of men who feel considerable unease as guys.

    Bingo. Leaving aside whatever female interpretation of “true masculinity” is, I never felt comfortable hanging around with guys back college who spent their downtime talking about wanting to bang this girl or that girl. None of my solid male friends I’m still in touch with were like that. We certainly talked about which girls we thought were attractive and wanted to pursue, but some significant % of college guys probably aren’t so overtly sexual, especially around each other.

    But clearly, there’s a disconnect WRT this ideal male lifestyle in college:
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/09/07/politics-and-feminism/bu-terriers-are-brutal-on-and-off-the-ice/

    Call it pluralistic ignorance, exaggerated expectations, or whatever. Even the Greeks and the jocks aren’t racking up dozens of partners over 4 years. Seems like there’s no middle ground between N = 0 (absolute failure) and N = X, where the higher X is, the more successful a guy is considered, by other men of course. Just taking GF preferences at face value, not second guessing what guys desire in their heart of hearts, on that point I can see where Freitas was coming from.

    BTW, hope all is well out in your neck of the wood. I just read about the Boston Marathon.

    • @Megaman

      Even the Greeks and the jocks aren’t racking up dozens of partners over 4 years

      That’s true. We tend to lose sight of this fact. Statements about the apex fallacy are at least partially unfounded. A review of some key stats:

      1. In one study tracking students over the course of a semester, 45% of the males had a P in V hookup.

      2. 95.5% of male college students graduate with a N of 6 or less.

      3. Only 2% of males and female graduate with N of 10 or more.

      4. Greeks and athletes have more sex overall than the mean, but the distribution varies. Greeks have the lowest percentage of 10+ partners. From a survey done at Penn:

      Virgins: All = 40%, Greeks = 20%

      1-3 sexual partners: All = 55%, Greeks = 40%, Athletes = 40%

      4-6 partners: All = 20%, Greeks = 25%, Athletes = 20%

      7-10 partners: All = 12%, Greeks = 25%, Athletes = 20%

      10+ partners: All = 13%, Greeks = 10%, Athletes = 20%

      5. One study that looked at the sexual behavior of male college students defined a player as “3 or more hookups per year.”

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “This women are deferential to EVERY MALE in close proximity out of the virtue that they have a penis hence he is superior to me. If I recall right men don’t want to be taken as the same as their competitors but better. No to mention this women SEEK validation from additional males aside from their mates thus one male to submit is not enough for their psyche.”

    Notice that I said friend/lover.
    No where did I mention girlfriend.

    They are basically offering free gratification (and some sex irl) at no cost.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I think you used to close your comments about her with “I feel so sorry/protective of her” and used to call her ‘one of my girls’ you don’t do that anymore, so it sounds like you don’t hold it in the same standard.

    Actually, that’s another girl, also with very high N. She is a much more sympathetic character. This particular one I’ve always ridiculed because of her 36 —> 6 hamsterwheeling.”

    This, you’ve dropped a lot of the niceties at the end.
    As for the number I’ve always been concentrated on the 6’s in it (which probably explains why I’m nuts) which is why I find it so memorable.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’m considerably more lenient than some readers here, so I know there won’t be consensus. Lokland has shared some pretty strict standards in the past, which is his right of course. I probably don’t know any young women who would clear his hurdles. *shrug*”

    I met four over the span of four years 😛
    Not sure where I came into this but the only real measure of any judgement/evaluation system is its effectiveness at the task it was designed to complete.

  • Lokland

    “Call it pluralistic ignorance, exaggerated expectations, or whatever.”

    The problem I suspect is the first two you mentioned and one another.

    As a general rule men prefer women with lower N than them and women prefer men with an N higher than their own.

    So, if PI combined with exaggerated expectations is part of a guy wanting an LTR he is likely going to realize that to have a successful LTR he has to have a higher N than the women do.

    Which becomes problematic if in your world view all the woman are sluts.

  • Jackie,
    Thanks for the kind words. Susan is correct about your kindness.

    J,
    It may interest you to know that in the last months since I moved back home, a couple girls from high school reached out to me and I was sort of stand-offish in response. So my issues with girls probably have more to do with me than them, at least more recently. It’s not something that bothers me these days, as I am just trying to stay well and keep my relationship healthy.

    Susan,
    I happened to catch your comment before you deleted it and did want to respond. As I remember, you asked whether I believe I am on the same kindness plane as Jackie. It was a silly question IMO, simply because it sets me up for failure either way. Either I admit that I could never be as kind as Jackie, or I claim that I am kinder, which doesn’t exactly demonstrate kindness. But if I had to answer, I’d say that our personalities are different. Jackie is certainly more vocal with her kindness, while I prefer to be more quiet and contemplative. I don’t like to see it in terms of a competition.

    By the way, I’ve always thought the mea culpa label misconstrued my views.

    • @Olive

      It was a silly question IMO, simply because it sets me up for failure either way.

      I agree – it was unfair, and I apologize.

      By the way, I’ve always thought the mea culpa label misconstrued my views.

      Very possibly. I was referring to the way you were perceived more than what you actually believed. In general, any woman willing to criticize female nature gets bonus points from certain types of male commenters. I was not implying you sought that validation.

  • J

    It may interest you to know that in the last months since I moved back home, a couple girls from high school reached out to me

    That can be sort of gratifying.

    and I was sort of stand-offish in response. So my issues with girls probably have more to do with me than them, at least more recently.

    You might want to explore that a bit-not so much these particular girls but female friendship in general. Most of us do eventually need some female friendship and support, epecially as we go through someof life’s landmarks like marriage and childbearing. We need to be with others who are going through the same changes.

    It’s not something that bothers me these days, as I am just trying to stay well and keep my relationship healthy.

    Often having female friends keeps one from burdening one’s mate with all of one’s needs. It is healthy.

    Just some motherly advice. At anyrate, all the best, Olive, sincerely.

  • Jackie

    @J

    “Yet your mom was apparently strong enough to live with that burden; don’t sell her short.”
    ===
    As always, you raise a good point, J. 🙂

    I think that trying to view other people’s lives through your perspective is like watching a monster movie. You see the character going into the haunted house, and are all like, NO! WHAT! DON’T GO IN THERE ARE YOU CRAZY?!?! 😯 Get out while there’s still time!

    But from character’s POV, everything they are doing is logical and makes perfect sense, you know?
    ===
    “Basically, I was born into this family to break the chains.

    That is a great and positive attitude. You’ve been very proactive in dealing with all this.”
    ===
    😎
    :mrgreen:
    🙂
    😀
    😛

  • @ OTC
  • Jackie

    @Olive

    Hey Olive!
    It’s easy to be nice to someone like you! 🙂 How are you doing these days with your writing and other projects?

  • Butter Naan

    “In reality, there are a lot of archtypes of men that are useful to society, and men should feel proud of themselves as long as they are contributing. It also doesn’t make sense to bash a diverse set of people for not adhering to a single stereotype, when they would never be able to, considering how diverse they are.”

    Men contain multitudes.

  • Jackie

    @J
    “You might want to explore that a bit-not so much these particular girls but female friendship in general. Most of us do eventually need some female friendship and support, epecially as we go through someof life’s landmarks like marriage and childbearing. We need to be with others who are going through the same changes.”
    ===
    J, this is really good advice and I’m going to work at this a little more deliberately. Thanks 😎

  • Jackie

    @ButterNaan/PJ

    PJ, I love your Whitman reference!

    This is one of my favorite parts of Leave of Grass
    Each of us inevitable,
    Each of us limitless —
    Each of us with his or her
    right upon the earth,
    Each of us allow’d
    the eternal purports
    of the earth,
    Each of us here
    as divinely as any is here.

  • J

    @Jackie

    @Jackie

    There’s a lot of truth in your horror movie metaphor. When you are in the midst of dealing with a situation, it seems natural and you just do what you need to do to live with the situation.

    I worked for a while in a psych hospital and had a good familiarity with personality disorders, but somehow it never ever occured to me that my mom could be a N. When she was diagnosed, I was practically giddy. Her shrink remarked that my reaction was “unusual.” I told him that I was very happy, not because she was sick, that because things finally made sense to me. And he understood that.

    Thanks for the kind words regarding the advice.

  • J

    “In reality, there are a lot of archtypes of men that are useful to society, and men should feel proud of themselves as long as they are contributing. It also doesn’t make sense to bash a diverse set of people for not adhering to a single stereotype, when they would never be able to, considering how diverse they are.”

    Indeed.

  • Anacaona

    @OTC
    You are not Alpha enough to pull that meme :p.

    Notice that I said friend/lover.
    No where did I mention girlfriend.

    Point.

    Often having female friends keeps one from burdening one’s mate with all of one’s needs. It is healthy.
    Cosign this. In different degree of course but a woman always need one trusted female friend at least in her life to navigate the rough patches without taxing too much her husband and/or the males in the family.

  • Anacaona

    “In reality, there are a lot of archtypes of men that are useful to society, and men should feel proud of themselves as long as they are contributing. It also doesn’t make sense to bash a diverse set of people for not adhering to a single stereotype, when they would never be able to, considering how diverse they are.”
    Except that this is sadly everywhere. It happens with religions, with political affiliations, with sport teams, heck it happens among fandoms. Monkey territorial brain makes us turn our fellow humans in The Other by any means necessary. This is probably our worst more persistent trait. Sad but true 🙁

  • JP

    “Except that this is sadly everywhere. It happens with religions, with political affiliations, with sport teams, heck it happens among fandoms. Monkey territorial brain makes us turn our fellow humans in The Other by any means necessary. This is probably our worst more persistent trait. Sad but true ”

    Our “problem” is that our monkey brains are no longer restrained by instinct.

    This is our worst and our best trait.

  • Butter Naan

    “Our “problem” is that our monkey brains are no longer restrained by instinct.”

    We’re supposed to restrain it by logic.

  • Chester the Philanthropist

    I still say Susan should have dinner with you. For science.

  • OffTheCuff

    I didn’t post that meme. But whoever did: dammit, I love you!

  • Butter Naan

    I love you too OTC 🙂

  • OffTheCuff

    Respect that one, at least it was fun.

  • J

    LMAO. Peej is on a roll tonight.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ana

    Except that this is sadly everywhere. It happens with religions, with political affiliations, with sport teams, heck it happens among fandoms. Monkey territorial brain makes us turn our fellow humans in The Other by any means necessary. This is probably our worst more persistent trait. Sad but true

    But of course. Even if all people were cancer-survivors that obliterated the Martian invasion with the might of Thor and spent spare time creating houses for the homeless on Venus, we would still be “shaming” people, in order to create a social hierarchy.

    It’s important to use your Advanced Reasoning, not to justify this instinct…but to realize that these sorts of judgements often have nothing to do with the WORTH of the other person, but of the worth of the other persont TO YOU in social “games.”

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    One study that looked at the sexual behavior of male college students defined a player as “3 or more hookups per year.”

    So besides the girlfriend there was my old friend who tried grabbing my crotch at 4th of July and there was that other girl recently who started undressing me on the dance floor.

    Hmmm…

    So I guess I can be a player now? sounds fun!

  • @ADBG,

    If you assimilate being sexually molested with hooking up, well I guess we can call you a player. However, that would invalidate a lot of sexual assault claims. So I’m going to disagree on that one.

  • Holy Basil

    “One study that looked at the sexual behavior of male college students defined a player as “3 or more hookups per year.” ”

    Only 3? Much ado about nothing.

    Susan, every time you say “Greeks” I think of these guys;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=145ixAyBLrE

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Mir,

    Ha, didn’t quite mean I WAS a player 😉 Not in the cards for me. More of a statement of “oh, I could be one, if I wanted to be.”

    Fun little joke, that’s all.

  • Passer_By

    Susan:

    I don’t understand how to reconcile these two statements in your stats:

    “3. Only 2% of males and female graduate with N of 10 or more.”

    “10+ partners: All = 13%, Greeks = 10%, Athletes = 20%”

    • @Passer By

      don’t understand how to reconcile these two statements in your stats:

      “3. Only 2% of males and female graduate with N of 10 or more.”

      “10+ partners: All = 13%, Greeks = 10%, Athletes = 20%”

      This first claim is a controlled study of 300, while the second is a student-sponsored study from Penn sent out randomly to undergraduates, which garnered 500 responses. It’s an annual “street sex survey” – so it may be that those with more sexual experience were more likely to respond.

  • Passer_By

    “This first claim is a controlled study of 300, while the second is a student-sponsored study from Penn sent out randomly to undergraduates, which garnered 500 responses. It’s an annual “street sex survey” – so it may be that those with more sexual experience were more likely to take time to respond.”

    Oh, I see. Two studies – I need to read more closely. I guess it may also be that those getting less sex were more likely to take the time to participate in a controlled study (probably a lot more time), because the others were too busy getting drunk and having sex. 😉

  • @SW

    This first claim is a controlled study of 300, while the second is a student-sponsored study from Penn sent out randomly to undergraduates, which garnered 500 responses. It’s an annual “street sex survey” – so it may be that those with more sexual experience were more likely to respond.

    The 2% figure refers to those who actually graduated. One possibility is that higher N in college is correlated with a lower graduation rate. I believe the CDC/Census (among others) has shown that those with “some college, no degree”, presumably dropouts, report the highest N of all.

    Kind of related, but there was a a study conducted years ago, and I’ve been trying to locate it for an apropos topic. Unemployed/underemployed reported higher N than those gainfully employed. That puts a whole new spin on the N = success, period (for guys) argument… 😉

  • Esau

    Susan at 242: ” In general, any woman willing to criticize female nature gets bonus points from certain types of male commenters.”

    So is this the definition of the phrase you used, “mea culpa females”? (though I don’t see the original comment anymore; was it deleted?) I think I’ve heard you using the phrase before, just wanted to get a working definition into the local lexicon.

    I was not implying you sought that validation.

    IIRC, you yourself have been criticized by other women, right here on this blog, for doing exactly this! ie seeking male validation by showing a willingness to criticize female nature — not that that’s a bad thing! in all cases, of course. But it suggests that this judgement of who is and is not a “mea culpa female” may be on a sliding scale. (Personally it doesn’t seem like such a meaningful or interesting distinction to me.)

    • @Esau

      So is this the definition of the phrase you used, “mea culpa females”?

      The mea culpa female is solicitous of the male commenter – she is eager to agree that women are hypergamous, solipsistic, and carefully guarding the female imperative. She champions submissiveness.

      IIRC, you yourself have been criticized by other women, right here on this blog, for doing exactly this! ie seeking male validation by showing a willingness to criticize female nature — not that that’s a bad thing!

      Good point. I think that where I differ is that I prefer to accept female and male natures as different, but perfectly compatible (for the purpose of reproduction). While the sexes share the same reproductive goals, they have different means of achieving them. Both sexes choose between ethical and unethical mating practices.

  • Passer_By

    @megaman

    “The 2% figure refers to those who actually graduated. One possibility is that higher N in college is correlated with a lower graduation rate”

    from 2% to 13% with n>10 is a huge jump – I don’t think it can be explained that way, unless all of the nongraduates are absolute sluts and manwhores.

  • @PB

    From 2% to 13% with n>10 is a huge jump – I don’t think it can be explained that way, unless all of the nongraduates are absolute sluts and manwhores.

    Well…
    http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2009/08/19/dropouts-loom-large-for-schools
    30% drop out after their freshman year, a period of high “hook up” activity. And another half never graduate. That’s just the average for all students. Not suggesting it explains everything, but let’s be frank: Focusing on studying probably tracks with a higher graduation rate. Prioritizing drinking and nookie, to the detriment of studying, probably not so much. If you’re worried more about looking good and avoiding STDs than you are grades and networking, methinks some % of these kids are academically DOA on arrival…

  • DOA on arrival…

    Yep, redundant!

  • Anacaona

    But it suggests that this judgement of who is and is not a “mea culpa female” may be on a sliding scale. (Personally it doesn’t seem like such a meaningful or interesting distinction to me.)
    I think the confusion started when Olive confirmed that certain female behavior the men observed matched her personal experience. While that is perfectly plausible the commenter like me and Hope are called outliers at best when we say that our experiences doesn’t match what they say women will do or feel.
    So there is a distinction Susan considers hipergamy an spectrum with most women in the middle while SOME guys here want her to say that all women are highly hipergamic in need dread game and all sorts of tactics that are mostly designed to filter out the less hipergamic women out and let the most in. Which of course confirms their observation AWALT and generates a vicious cycle, IMO,YMMV.

    • So there is a distinction Susan considers hipergamy an spectrum with most women in the middle while SOME guys here want her to say that all women are highly hipergamic in need dread game and all sorts of tactics that are mostly designed to filter out the less hipergamic women out and let the most in. Which of course confirms their observation AWALT and generates a vicious cycle, IMO,YMMV.

      Exactly.

      There’s also a lot of high-fiving and back slapping, and even commments like, “So and so is the only one who gets it.” “Why can’t the other women admit what so and so is willing to admit?” “I really appreciate so and so – she’s the rare woman who understands her own triggers and is willing to be honest about it.” Etc.

  • JP

    I’m willing to be hypercritical of male nature!

    I can help!

  • J,
    I’m sure I’ll eventually have female friends again. I actually have a couple very close friends from college who I still keep in touch with. But at the moment I’m living with my parents in a small town and don’t have a car, and there’s hardly anyone my age around, so the environment is not conducive to meeting new people/forming friendships. And like I said, it’s not my focus right now, as I have a lot of other stuff to work on.

    Jackie,
    I’m doing okay, thanks for asking!

    Susan,

    Very possibly. I was referring to the way you were perceived more than what you actually believed. In general, any woman willing to criticize female nature gets bonus points from certain types of male commenters. I was not implying you sought that validation.

    Fair enough. Admittedly I was very frustrated last year by the behavior of my classmates, who were almost exclusively female. I’m not sure what I think anymore, but my views have probably changed.

    Anacaona,

    I think the confusion started when Olive confirmed that certain female behavior the men observed matched her personal experience. While that is perfectly plausible the commenter like me and Hope are called outliers at best when we say that our experiences doesn’t match what they say women will do or feel.

    I remember you had also been held up by some of the guys, though, and Hope certainly was. In any case, I’ve witnessed at least a few of these guys have gone off on the fringe and I’m not sure they agree with me (or you, or Hope) as much as they think they do.

  • Anacaona

    I remember you had also been held up by some of the guys, though, and Hope certainly was. In any case, I’ve witnessed at least a few of these guys have gone off on the fringe and I’m not sure they agree with me (or you, or Hope) as much as they think they do.
    Never as standard of female nature. Outliers is the name they used with us not the same as you or Sassy get when you confirm their believes about female nature.

    • Outliers is the name they used with us not the same as you or Sassy get when you confirm their believes about female nature.

      Yes, Sassy is a real favorite with the guys whenever she says “I want alphas, betas go home.” They appreciate a female who is “honest for a change” about how unattractive betas are.

  • Okay *shrugs*. I’m not sure I get what you mean, but I think I remember things differently. The ladies of HUS were supposedly all outliers as I recall.

    By the way, it might interest some to know that since I got sick and became a total weakling, my BF started saying he wants me to be a “strong woman,” independent, and have a career. His words, not mine. I listen to him, not the manosphere.

  • JP

    “By the way, it might interest some to know that since I got sick and became a total weakling, my BF started saying he wants me to be a “strong woman,” independent, and have a career.”

    Total weakling?

  • Call it broke, unemployed, grad school dropout if you must.

  • JP

    “Call it broke, unemployed, grad school dropout if you must.”

    Um.

    That’s not “total weakling”.

    The grad school dropout might be a plus.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Yes, Sassy is a real favorite with the guys whenever she says “I want alphas, betas go home.” They appreciate a female who is “honest for a change” about how unattractive betas are.”

    Two things;

    1. I like Sassy mostly, little more blunt than I am used to but she is honest.
    2. You define beta very differently than the men here.

    You- a mixture of alpha-beta trait specific to the individual women
    Guys- beta traits only

    Now if we look at the larger cultural scheme and how boys were raised perhaps part of the problem in this mating game is that guys divided into dichotomous groups of alpha and beta with very little mixing occurring.

    (I suspect this was partially a mixture of genetic predisposition to certain personality traits exaggerated by the environment.)

    So, perhaps the beta you are talking about it quite rare. Less so than both than alphas and the betas. Lets call them men in the classical sense, strong without barbarianism and kind without chumpness.

    If thats true most of the men women encounter will be one or the other, not a mix. Which might explain the general lack of attraction to ‘beta’ as described by the men here.

    Relating it back to your comment, you might be describing a creature that is very rare (more so than what I would define as acceptable past behaviour :P).

    So, most of the men here are coming from the perspective of the fully beta guy so in a way they are being honest about women not liking beta because;
    a) they are beta
    b) women are not attracted

    Imho, what you describe as beta applies to maybe three men I know. Most others split evenly into almost all beta or alpha categories.

    • @Lokland

      Re “pure” betas – again, I would point to the institution of marriage to demonstrate that educated betas, at least, are having that experience in large numbers.

      I think pure beta is in end of the spectrum, pure alpha the other, with men distributed in a bell curve fashion.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “Yes, Sassy is a real favorite with the guys whenever she says “I want alphas, betas go home.””

    I think it was only Mahoney who got upset over that (though his level of anger might have made it seem like 10 guys). Having said that, when Sassy actually describes the guys she is dating, they don’t sound so alpha to me. Good looking/pretty perhaps. But not high T or socially dominant. And, no matter how tall he is or how big his johnson is, a guy in his twenties who can only manage to bang once a week can’t really be called “alpha”, can he? Nor can a guy who is constantly worrying about why she’s with him. Nor can the guy who is openly throwing a hissy fit about her being a celebrity crusher (not sure if they were the same guy).

    • @Passer By

      I agree about Sassy’s bf’s. She thinks they’re hot, so she calls them alpha. But many don’t fit the typical sphere definition of alpha. She likes poets with tattoos, after all.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    ““So and so is the only one who gets it.” “Why can’t the other women admit what so and so is willing to admit?” “I really appreciate so and so – she’s the rare woman who understands her own triggers and is willing to be honest about it.” ”

    Well, I guess. But at the same time, most of the young beta guys here seem to consider hope and ana to be dream women, and they don’t seem to show stereotypical hypergamic or alpha chasing tendencies, nor have they ever “admitted” to them.

    BOOM!!!!!! HIGH FIVES, GUYS!!! I JUST PWNED SUSAN!

    • @Passer By

      But at the same time, most of the young beta guys here seem to consider hope and ana to be dream women, and they don’t seem to show stereotypical hypergamic or alpha chasing tendencies

      True. Here’s how it breaks down at HUS:

      Mea culpa women are allies, but not objects of fantasy as the perfect wife. They are representative of female nature.

      Perfect wife women are rare exceptions to female nature, but are not reliable allies.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I think pure beta is in end of the spectrum, pure alpha the other, with men distributed in a bell curve fashion.”

    And I think I said otherwise.
    Namely that most men fall strongly to the beta end of the spectrum yet are still married despite your insistence upon what qualifies as beta (which is most definitely slanted to right of the mid point).

    • Namely that most men fall strongly to the beta end of the spectrum yet are still married

      In that case, we must assume that men falling strongly on the beta end are attractive enough to woo and wed.

  • Anacaona

    1. I like Sassy mostly, little more blunt than I am used to but she is honest.
    I’m honest too even if we had completely different attraction triggers. That is the point.

    2. You define beta very differently than the men here.
    I think I described my Warhammer,gamer, never had a ONS or casual sex as pretty much as Beta as he can be. He is Beta and proud 😀
    Which I think is probably the problem the guys here define Beta as negative and unattractive always so anytime we appear to like it they seems suspect.
    Also this Beta Alpha is subjective for males. Someone in the sphere did an analysis of Titanic with Jack the poor virgin artist being the Alpha while Carl the rich handsome every woman’s dream man being the Beta… just because he got the girl in the end the twisted the meaning as much as they could to make it fix. Does not compute.

    Perfect wife women are rare exceptions to female nature, but are not reliable allies.
    I will add they are so rare that a man shouldn’t even try to get one of this in real life and the ones that look like them are probably faking it anyway. *lesigh*

    • Someone in the sphere did an analysis of Titanic with Jack the poor virgin artist being the Alpha while Carl the rich handsome every woman’s dream man being the Beta… just because he got the girl in the end the twisted the meaning as much as they could to make it fix. Does not compute.

      Yeah, that’s ridiculous. Jack Dawson was a sweet beta boy and Carl a typical Dark Triad type.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Lokland

    “2. You define beta very differently than the men here.”

    Susan’s “betas” generally refer to Vox’s betas. Mapping these over to Roissy terms, these Vox betas are usually “lesser alphas”. Most guys here (and a lot of other sites) are using beta in the Roissy sense, not in the Vox/Susan beta sense.

  • Anacaona

    Yeah, that’s ridiculous. Jack Dawson was a sweet beta boy and Carl a typical Dark Triad type.
    Analysis of fictional works say more about the analyst than about the work itself. I almost commented on a particular analysis of Ariel in the little mermaid but I decided against it.

  • Susan wrote:

    Yes, Sassy is a real favorite with the guys whenever she says “I want alphas, betas go home.” They appreciate a female who is “honest for a change” about how unattractive betas are.

    Alpha-hipster chaser.

    • Alpha-hipster

      Pretty sure this is an oxymoron.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    In that case, we must assume that men falling strongly on the beta end are attractive enough to woo and wed.

    Operative question being, how often?

    Of my two college best friends, one is probably definitely Alpha and one is definitely Beta. The Alpha Guy is the Jersey Shore type who drinks every weekend, and though he only has N=2, girls take a shine to him. Also hangs out with an unrestricted crowd.
    Restricted=/=Beta, I should add…

    My other friend is a South Asian 2nd generation immigrant who works in IT. He dresses nicely, sometimes, but doesn’t like doing it so he normally dresses down. Very bad with girls. Not direct at all. I remember one night junior year, he brought his classmate with him.
    Neither one said a single word all night.
    By the end of the night she gave her number to a frat guy.
    He also was a Beta Orbiter for another girl for….good god…4 or 5 years. It got to the point where every time we saw him, we opened and ended with telling him to stop seeing that girl.

    Beta friend now has a girlfriend. But when he met her? He had a lot going for him. Same religion, and he was a graduate with a job leading some class, whereas the girl was still in college. Big status difference. She was in ending moments of college career and, well, probably didn’t have a lot of options in terms of guys.

    Not a lot of options+hypgeramy+momentary display of status and looking good=my Beta friend wins.

    But that may very well be the only time in the 8 years I’ve known him that he has EVER presented as alpha to a girl. So he might get married. Who knows? He’s still on the overly beta side of the spectrum and had to rely on dumb luck.

    Alpha friend…well, you can’t turn Alpha into Beta. Totally different. he’s got no relationship skills.

    • @ADBG

      Most men are beta. Most men are married. Most educated men (heavy on betas) stay married.

      —-> Beta men are attractive to women.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Cal is utterly dark triad who looks Beta on occassion, when he is being manipulative. Jack is a Beta-Alpha mixture.

    Ariel is an idiot like most of the Disney Princesses 😛

  • JP

    @ADBG:

    “He also was a Beta Orbiter for another girl for….good god…4 or 5 years. It got to the point where every time we saw him, we opened and ended with telling him to stop seeing that girl.”

    I thought that “Beta Orbiter”and “seeing that girl” were mutually exclusive.

  • Anacaona

    Ariel is an idiot like most of the Disney Princesses
    Married to a wonderful man willing to risk his life to save her and being on the the few Disney mothers with a beautiful daughter… My kind of idiot 😉

  • J

    Alpha-hipster ….Pretty sure this is an oxymoron.

    I hope not. One of my sons is cultivating that vibe. Well, more sigma-hipster.

    • Well, more sigma-hipster.

      Oh, that is not at all unusual!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    JP, we meant he should cut off all contact with her, period. They were still “friends.” he needed to remove that.

    @ Susan

    Most men are beta. Most men are married. Most educated men (heavy on betas) stay married.

    —-> Beta men are attractive to women.

    Beta Men can be attractive women. Most Beta Men, at some point, will be attractive to some women, and will eventually find one out of that pool to wed.

    I think most Beta Guys can do a lot to improve their Sexy factor, though, which is also Lokland’s point. If women want the perfect blend of sexy-and-sweet, most men have too much emphasis on sweet compared to sexy, and though they may appear sexy SOMETIMES, they could and should improve the Sexy Score.

  • Lokland

    @ExNewYorker

    “Susan’s “betas” generally refer to Vox’s betas. Mapping these over to Roissy terms, these Vox betas are usually “lesser alphas”. Most guys here (and a lot of other sites) are using beta in the Roissy sense, not in the Vox/Susan beta sense.”

    Yes I agree with this analysis.
    The problem with this analysis is that they are not large enough to represent all of the men who are married;
    Vox/Susan betas represent probably 15-20% of the population.
    Most of the rest are Vox deltas which is loosely defined as tons of beta with little alpha. They represent he majority yet no one even considers them, even here, which is of course too bad because if a women wants to be married there is a 1 in 2 (at minimum) chance it will be to a delta.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “I will add they are so rare that a man shouldn’t even try to get one of this in real life and the ones that look like them are probably faking it anyway. *lesigh*”

    Hey same comment I just made in reverse.
    Much like most men won’t get the perfect wife, most women will not be getting that perfect Alpha-Beta husband.

  • Escoffier

    Analysis of fiction can be quite profitable IF the fiction has a philosophic core that is true to reality, e.g., Jane Austen. If on the other hand the fiction is pre-pubescent fairy tale mixed with limousine liberal agitprop, then not so much.

  • Bells

    He dresses nicely, sometimes, but doesn’t like doing it so he normally dresses down. Very bad with girls. Not direct at all. I remember one night junior year, he brought his classmate with him.
    Neither one said a single word all night.
    By the end of the night she gave her number to a frat guy.

    What a cringe-fest. Poor guy

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also, when we say that most men need to remove the “Anti-Game” that’s what we mean. Most guys will appear to sexy at some point to some selection of girls.

    The goal is to teach men how to:
    1. Identify a woman that finds him sexy (not easy because they don’t send IOIs all the time)
    2. Approach the woman
    3. Not screw it up

    Most of the other stuff is generally softer, easier to improve stuff, like “dress better and not like a slob” and “build your social circle to meet more girls.”

    If you want to take it to the next step, then there are more tips and tricks to learn, but most guys can do fine by removing Anti-Game.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bells

    What a cringe-fest. Poor guy

    Oh yeah. That was a brutal night for everyone. Some guy brought his girlfriend along…who gave a lapdance to my jersey shore friend. I was getting quite chummy with my first college one-itis, but she left and went back to her dorm to hook up with, ya know, another guy, which started her “recycling period” as she put it.
    After that night, decided to make a few life changes. eat healthier, exercise more. Actually apply some of this “game” stuff I heard this “roissy” dude talking about. Unfortunately, I didn’t manage anything right, ended up in the hospital. Spent the rest of the semester pledging my frat…that felt awesome, being part of a group for once in my life…then the next semester realizing that they still considered me in the out-group and weird, and oh boy did my mood spiral down from there.

    Also, my friend ended up puking on a dog.

    Wish I could say I was making this up.

  • Bells

    Not a lot of options+hypgeramy+momentary display of status and looking good=my Beta friend wins.
    But that may very well be the only time in the 8 years I’ve known him that he has EVER presented as alpha to a girl. So he might get married. Who knows? He’s still on the overly beta side of the spectrum and had to rely on dumb luck.

    I still don’t think that he’s in a very good place just because he proved to be a momentary situational “alpha” in order to get his girlfriend. Overtime, (and if he doesn’t marry the girl quickly) things may change around and he would definitely loose his footing from his dumb luck rock. What happens then?

  • JP

    “Wish I could say I was making this up.”

    This actually sounds like a relatively sane and healthy college experience when compared to mine.

  • JP

    “I still don’t think that he’s in a very good place just because he proved to be a momentary situational “alpha” in order to get his girlfriend. Overtime, (and if he doesn’t marry the girl quickly) things may change around and he would definitely loose his footing from his dumb luck rock. What happens then?”

    Isn’t it more of a problem if he marries what he can get as opposed to marrying what he actually wants?

    That wouldn’t be good for the woman, either.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    “Analysis of fiction can be quite profitable IF the fiction has a philosophic core that is true to reality, e.g., Jane Austen. If on the other hand the fiction is pre-pubescent fairy tale mixed with limousine liberal agitprop, then not so much.”
    ===
    Esco, are you talking about Ana’s beloved _Twilight_?

    If so…
    *shakes head sadly*
    *wipes delicate tear*
    …it was good to know you. May flights of angels sing you to rest. Godspeed, dear Esco!

  • Jackie

    @ADBG

    “Also, my friend ended up puking on a dog.

    Wish I could say I was making this up.”
    ====
    😯
    What?!?!

    No excuse for animal abuse! That poor doggie! 🙁

  • Bells

    @ADBG

    Oh yeah. That was a brutal night for everyone. Some guy brought his girlfriend along…who gave a lapdance to my jersey shore friend. I was getting quite chummy with my first college one-itis, but she left and went back to her dorm to hook up with, ya know, another guy, which started her “recycling period” as she put it.

    yikes, college relationships sounded rough for you and your friends

    @JP

    Isn’t it more of a problem if he marries what he can get as opposed to marrying what he actually wants? That wouldn’t be good for the woman, either.

    From ADBG’s description, I’m not even sure that he can get/marry what he wants.

    I’m just pointing out that if the girl doesn’t fall in love with him, she’ll definitely see through his schtick soon enough. This guy needs some inner game, pronto

  • SayWhaat

    Married to a wonderful man willing to risk his life to save her and being on the the few Disney mothers with a beautiful daughter… My kind of idiot

    +1. NOBODY say a word against my homegirl Ariel. 😛

  • +1. NOBODY say a word against my homegirl Ariel.

    Speaking as an admirer of the female form, and a fan of hand-drawn animation: Can’t top Aurora. Bonus points dancing to Tchaikovsky.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Bells;
    He might be in trouble in the future. I don’t know. I barely know his GF and I am not a relationship expert. She might monkey-swing, like his like girlfriend did, or maybe this one will stick with him. Dunno.

    However, I don’t think it’s an issue of Inner Game or shticks at all. It’s an issue of attraction triggers, situational attraction, alpha vs. beta, etc. All sorts of different continuums, set apart from everything else.

    For instance, I have pretty solid inner Game. But I identify as a Beta Guy. It’s not that I am not attractive…clearly that isn’t the case if I can simply walk outside and have some heads turning my way. And I know how to talk to women a bit better than normal men, and I am flirty and know how to escalate, implement Kino, etc.

    But I am not Alpha. I do not have the drive to impose my will on the world or be #1. I just like being attractive to women. NOT Alpha.

    I do have a friend who is Alpha. He doesn’t give a crap about rules. He seeks to impose his own order on the world, and he wants to be #1. So he works out a lot, acts like he doesn’t give a damn (because he doesn’t for the most part), he demands only the best food, cards, etc, and he dresses nicely. And women like that.

    That doesn’t mean he has good inner game. At all. He lives with his parents and is unsure about himself, and one of his greatest insecurities is whether or not he can give a woman an orgasm. He’s also got no relationship skills.

    But, he has short-term attracton triggers. And women like that. A lot of women even like him over me, if you can imagine that!

    My other friend is Beta. He is co-operative. He has the ability to dress nice, but most of the time doesn’t really care. He does not seek to impose his will on the world or dominate, he only seeks to help out his parents and religion. In fact, he worked for free for his dad for several years because his dad was struggling to develop a business.

    He also does not pursue women, and women don’t find him attractive, usually. He doesn’t know how to talk to women. He often supplicates and he gets one-it is easily. He still has decently strong inner game, superior to my Alpha friend, at the very least. He doesn’t fall apart.

    But…he has no short-term attraction triggers on his own. No active game. So he needed the environment to set the attraction for him, or else he had no shot.

    It’s not an Inner Game vs. Shtick issue, which, to me, is quickly becoming even more useless than Alpha v. Beta in trying to determine why guys can pick-up girls. I don’t even think it is beta vs. Alpha, because Beta guys can learn Short-Term attraction triggers, too.

  • JP

    “But I am not Alpha. I do not have the drive to impose my will on the world or be #1.

    He does not seek to impose his will on the world or dominate, he only seeks to help out his parents and religion. In fact, he worked for free for his dad for several years because his dad was struggling to develop a business.”

    These two instincts don’t work together very well.

  • Escoffier

    Talking about Titanic, which someone else had brought up making the (correct) point that one could not learn anything from it.

  • Anacaona

    The goal is to teach men how to:
    1. Identify a woman that finds him sexy (not easy because they don’t send IOIs all the time)
    2. Approach the woman
    3. Not screw it up

    Actually this are good pointers. Maybe you should start a blog Kill your anti-game. I think that would be a good choice for the less inclined for the hardcore game with no filters and destroy your soul sort of advice.

    +1. NOBODY say a word against my homegirl Ariel
    THIS. IS. ATLANTICA!

    Talking about Titanic, which someone else had brought up making the (correct) point that one could not learn anything from it.
    Actually I was criticizing the conclusion no the analysis. I think everything merits analysis and in fact if you tell a story that breaks cultural, language and race barrier in similar matter then you probably have a story that tells something powerful about the human condition. I’m not a cultural elitist even Jersey Shore, The Kardashians… my hated Reality TV shows has undercurrent messages worth exploring. Is just that I can’t stomach to watch the material so I can’t do it myself. The world doesn’t revolve around what I like, YMMV.

  • Hipsters are wannabes and wannabes can’t be Alphas. Do you imagine Don Draper acting like a Hipster? He’d slap him in the face and tell him to get a serious job. “I went to war in Korea, for Christsakes!”

    More importantly, where is Han Solo?

  • SayWhaat

    Speaking as an admirer of the female form, and a fan of hand-drawn animation: Can’t top Aurora. Bonus points dancing to Tchaikovsky.

    I was so sad when Disney closed its animation studios. 🙁

    Oh, well. *raises Pixar flag*

  • JP

    @ADBG

    “He often supplicates and he gets one-it is easily.”

    I’m still trying to figure out how you can really be interested in more than one woman at a time.

    So, this entire “one-itis” thing is somewhat strange to me.

  • Bells

    @ADBG,
    I’ve always assumed that once a guy develops inner game then he’ll have more confidence and self-assurance in himself which will inversely draw in women who are attracted to a strong character. At least, that’s primarily how my attraction triggers with men work. But come to think of it, I do have to agree that if a man doesn’t look presentable nor does he pass a minimum baseline of attraction, then a crutched dependence on inner game will not get him far.

    So he needed the environment to set the attraction for him, or else he had no shot.

    But wouldn’t it be better to rely on one’s own actions to set up attraction triggers rather than depending on flimsy extrinsic factors that can change at a moment’s notice? Then he could have a lot more dating opportunities and be able to attract the women he wants instead of those that appear with a lucky draw.

    My other friend is Beta. He is co-operative. He has the ability to dress nice, but most of the time doesn’t really care. He does not seek to impose his will on the world or dominate, he only seeks to help out his parents and religion. In fact, he worked for free for his dad for several years because his dad was struggling to develop a business.
    He also does not pursue women, and women don’t find him attractive, usually. He doesn’t know how to talk to women. He often supplicates and he gets one-it is easily. He still has decently strong inner game….
    But…he has no short-term attraction triggers on his own. No active game.

    Your friend sounds like he has a ton going on, inwardly. I guess I’m a bit frustrated by the passivity because I can definitely relate. In the past, I struggled to attract men and although I thought I had a good heart— all the inner game in the world wasn’t going to get men (at least the type of men I wanted, lol) to glance twice at me until I put a large effort into developing my appearance and receptivity. I realize that guy game is much harder than girl game but it just sucks for good people to be left out.

  • SayWhaat

    I realize that guy game is much harder than girl game but it just sucks for good people to be left out.

    It’s not harder in this instance.

    ***PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***

    Men. Buy pants that fit. If they feel more tight than you are used to, you are doing it right.

    • ***PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***

      Men. Buy pants that fit. If they feel more tight than you are used to, you are doing it right.

      LMAO. It’s true. Droopy drawers are not sexy.

  • Anacaona

    @Say Whaat and any other Disney fans
    Did you watched this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diU70KshcjA
    That kid auditioned for Glee and didn’t got the part. He is better off alone, IMO.

  • ***PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***

    Men. Buy pants that fit. If they feel more tight than you are used to, you are doing it right.

    I second that motion and request that fitted shirts/sweaters be had to the lot.

    • @Mireille

      I second that motion and request that fitted shirts/sweaters be had to the lot.

      You are French, so you are used to the fitted shirt. American men tend to wear their shirts big and baggy. Personally, I think the English do this best. Perhaps Escoffier will weigh in.

  • ***Added***

    English not good today!

  • Gin Martini

    @Susan [[Most men are beta. Most men are married. Most educated men (heavy on betas) stay married. —-> Beta men are attractive to women.]]

    Conclusion does not follow. Most men are deltas/gammas, not Vox betas.

    Most men who are married, have been attractive to at least *one* woman at one point, not women. As above, they are deltas and gammas. Likely, they couldn’t arouse a new woman at will, if their life depended on it.

    Vox betas, yes, are arousing to women. Just like alphas.

    Han is sealed in carbonite. Blame the Sith protogés.

  • Re: shirts. I vote Turnbull & Asser and/or Charvet. The students seem to like Thomas Pink slim fit the best, though, so if your target market is 22 year old co-eds you might find that bespoke is unncessary.

    • @Bastiat

      My husband would second Turnbull & Asser for sure. Thomas Pink slim fit is very nice. In general, Brits are less afraid to use color.

      I once gave him a paperweight that says “Dress British, Think Yiddish.” It’s been on his desk for 20 years.

  • Jackie

    @BB
    Hi Bastiat,

    One vote for Turnbull & Asser here. 🙂

    Bastiat, a question for you:
    Which display were you more proud of:

    The display of your GF’s pic in your classroom, or the display of support by your undergrad students wearing cocktail dresses to your talk?

    I ask because, at times, you will express a wistful longing for a relationship or mention how lucky Ana’s husband is. Yet your behavior appears (to me) to be in direct opposition to what someone like Ana wants.

    It seems (again, maybe only to me!) that you appear to thrive on admiration more than the kind of love that makes up a relationship.

    And you probably may be continuing to mourn the loss of your dearly departed family member that was your most beloved dog. (Please do not think I am diminishing your loss in any way, dear Bastiat: You are grieving a family member, and I am truly sorry for your loss.)

    Again, this is only the opinion of an internet commentator– It just seems to me that you are yearning simultaneously for two different things: Love and admiration.

    Maybe you are like the rest us seeking unicorns 😉 , and it is possible for them to co-exist. The kind of love that goes the distance, in my observation, is when the admiration is mutual and far from any pedestal.

    In any event, I do hope you find what you are looking for.
    Peace BB–

  • It’s very hard to get decent shirts or pants in North America. Most shirts are shaped like tubes, as are pants. I honestly go to thrift shops to pilfer the leftovers of gay men.

    • I honestly go to thrift shops to pilfer the leftovers of gay men.

      That’s actually a brilliant strategy.

  • Jackie

    @Mr Nervous Toes

    Mr. NT, do you know any good tailors in your area? A good tailor can make a *world* of difference. And they are not that expensive, for the service they provide. Do you have a favorite place to get suits? They should definitely have contacts for you.

    To your sartorial success 🙂

  • Anacaona
    • @Ana

      I love that cute little animation! He leads, but he’s looking for love!

  • Anacaona

    And you probably may be continuing to mourn the loss of your dearly departed family member that was your most beloved dog. (Please do not think I am diminishing your loss in any way, dear Bastiat: You are grieving a family member, and I am truly sorry for your loss.)
    I didn’t saw this. Sorry for your loss BB
    PS
    Thank you for the distinction Jackie but I rather we keep using Hope as the paradigm of the perfect wife. I’m the good wife behind the throne 😉

  • Richard,

    Said it before: As a fraternity grad adviser back in the day, loosely employed by the Dean of Students, the guys we had to watch were the ones who’d been dumped. Not the ones who hadn’t been able to get laid in forever. The ones whose now-ex girlfriends told them they weren’t all that much and not to call.

    A retired regimental-sergeant-major (RSM) told me that during the Border War, they had something called ‘Fuck You Parades’. All the troops that received ‘Dear John’ letters were ordered to line up, and then they were drilled and fucked around until they were tired.

    Then they were told to stand in a line and then the RSM ordered them to cry. They all cried. Then the RSM told them to stop crying. They stopped crying. Then the RSM told them to write their exes names on an old newspaper. They write the names on an old newspaper.

    Then the RSM burned the newspaper, gave them some more tough love and ordered them all to write a letter to their exes saying only this :

    Thank you and fuck you.

    The old RSM told me that those ‘Dear John’ letters could harm the troops more than any bullet could.

  • Emily

    My boyfriend likes Thomas Pink, but there are probably other cheaper brands around (although I don’t know enough about such things to make a recommendation).

  • Emily

    >> “You are French, so you are used to the fitted shirt. American men tend to wear their shirts big and baggy. Personally, I think the English do this best.”
    ——
    Ooooooh! I have an opinion on this! I completely agree with you. I have a terrible sense of gaydar, so lots of continental fashions just mess with my head. (Hipsters also tend to confuse me. :S )

    Continental Europe = too tight. North America = too baggy. The English are just right. 🙂

  • Emily,

    … if I could only get my hands on a Mao Suit

  • Jackie, I think you have summarized my essential, existential problem with successfully managing LTRs.

    • @Bastiat

      I didn’t want to put you on the spot, but since it came up…

      Jackie, I think you have summarized my essential, existential problem with successfully managing LTRs.

      When you told the story about the girls showing up in red dresses (which is clearly groupie “crushing on the prof” behavior), I wondered what your gf would think. It seems like the kind of thing you’d have to keep from her, assuming she’s still around.

      If she isn’t – if she couldn’t stand the heat – then I think we have a very interesting case study of a very high SMV male rejected due to preselection.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Yep, most men would do well to get some decent fashion going on. And then wearing it. Rarely does the day come when I say to myself “oh, I feel lazy, I am just going to throw on a baggy shirt.” If I display myself to the world, I display myself properly.

    Something we can learn from those Dark Triad types, though from what I am told, I might not be too far off from one 😉

    In contrast, my friend usually wears baggy sweat-shirts and jeans. He knows how to dress, better than I do, he just refuses to do it, because he thinks “what’s the big deal?” The big deal is that because the rest of you dress like slobs, I can walk down the streets of Chicago at certain times of day and have 1/3 of the heads spin in my direction, and you can’t even talk to girls.

    That’s the big deal, noob.

    Now imagine that, x10000, and you have the difficulties of trying to teach the average guy ANYTHING about game.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bells

    @ADBG,
    I’ve always assumed that once a guy develops inner game then he’ll have more confidence and self-assurance in himself which will inversely draw in women who are attracted to a strong character. At least, that’s primarily how my attraction triggers with men work. But come to think of it, I do have to agree that if a man doesn’t look presentable nor does he pass a minimum baseline of attraction, then a crutched dependence on inner game will not get him far.

    But wouldn’t it be better to rely on one’s own actions to set up attraction triggers rather than depending on flimsy extrinsic factors that can change at a moment’s notice? Then he could have a lot more dating opportunities and be able to attract the women he wants instead of those that appear with a lucky draw.

    Your friend sounds like he has a ton going on, inwardly. I guess I’m a bit frustrated by the passivity because I can definitely relate. In the past, I struggled to attract men and although I thought I had a good heart— all the inner game in the world wasn’t going to get men (at least the type of men I wanted, lol) to glance twice at me until I put a large effort into developing my appearance and receptivity. I realize that guy game is much harder than girl game but it just sucks for good people to be left out.

    Yes, I think you’re hitting on a lot of good points here. The passivity just annoys to no end. If you are waiting for the world to drop something into your lap, you might be waiting for a looooonnnngggggg time. Doesn’t matter if it’s a job, a perfect house, a mate, or whatever.
    You need to go out there and do something about it. You need to display, you need to filter, you need to hit up the streets like mad. You can be the best guy in the world and no one’s going to know if you never talk to a freakin’ girl! They’re not psychics!

    But applying this to Inner Game, how you are describing Inner Game is indeed passive. It really doesn’t mean anything more than confidence, and confidence can be quite alluring, but my friend is “confident” enough to wear baggy sweat pants everywhere and I’m “insecure” enough to need to wear a blazer.

    Big difference in how that outwardly manifests, though. I can wear the blazer and FEEL confident and I will ACT confident, in a blazer, coupled with a somewhat-Alpha appetite to take what I want in terms of human conversation, not really giving a crap if I discomfort anyone, and my friend is confident enough to wear baggy sweat-pants and sip a beer and talk to no one.

    And even if he does meet a girl? He was taught not to kino. Not to isolate. Not to escalate. He doesn’t know frame control…if a girl is bashing him, it means he is wrong and has to do something to correct his behavior.

    Inner Game is not enough for men-folk. It’s like you said, men also need a minimum standard of looks, and a minimum standard of social skills, to even be in the running.

    What you do with your Inner Game is you apply it to improve your life, which includes learning the outward displays of attraction and seduction, if you want a high-quality woman in your life.

  • JP

    “He doesn’t know frame control”

    What in the world is “frame control”?

  • Emily

    Beta Guy,

    I agree with you completely, and I see many “beta females” doing the same sort of thing and then complaining that they don’t have a boyfriend. Putting on a skirt and wearing a bit of make up can make a huge difference. (I realize that this is a huge hobbyhorse for me, but it is totally possible to wear make up in a way that doesn’t make you look like Snookie. 😛 )

  • Emily

    Marellus,

    The Mao suit only works if you get the haircut as well. 😉

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Having said that, when Sassy actually describes the guys she is dating, they don’t sound so alpha to me. Good looking/pretty perhaps. But not high T or socially dominant. And, no matter how tall he is or how big his johnson is, a guy in his twenties who can only manage to bang once a week can’t really be called “alpha”, can he? Nor can a guy who is constantly worrying about why she’s with him. Nor can the guy who is openly throwing a hissy fit about her being a celebrity crusher (not sure if they were the same guy).

    All of those examples are not from the same guy.

    1. The guy who only wanted to bang once a week was the most recent ex-bf. This was also the guy who revealed to me that he slept with 20+ women, including a threesome. He and I actually talked recently, and he told me the reason that his sex drive was so low with me. He told me that he “likes the chase” and that “he didn’t like it when I tried to initiate sex with him”. In his mind, he preferred “conquering a woman” and “taking her whenever he pleased”. When I tried to initiate sex, it made him lose his desire. Peculiar indeed.

    2. The guy who constantly worried about why I was with him was actually a boyfriend I had about 6 4 years ago. I think he was the only “Beta” I ever seriously attempted to date.

    3. The guy who had the celebrity “hissy” was the infamous ex that I dated for a year. Aside from his contempt of my crush on Ian Somerhalder, his emotional disposition generally fluctuated between anger, contempt, and hornyness.

  • Sassy6519

    I agree about Sassy’s bf’s. She thinks they’re hot, so she calls them alpha. But many don’t fit the typical sphere definition of alpha. She likes poets with tattoos, after all.

    I don’t want the typical sphere definition of “Alpha”. That is too much prick and “assholery” for my taste.

    Alpha-hipster chaser.

    Indeed.

  • @ Bastiat Blogger,

    You’re like the Bill Clinton of academia.

    I had a friend who dated someone similar. She said that the BF left too much space for third parties in their relationship as in not actively discouraging the groupies. This is the problem with the knowledgeable/charismatic types, they just can’t help sharing.

    Women already know they’re competing against other women, most of the time these are imagined or not immediately there. However when they are so visible, this can break the most resilient. Call it low self-esteem or insecurity or what not, it’s real. This is indeed why that pre-selection meme is not really accurate. I’d prefer someone moderately intelligent/attractive who might not be assailed with offers to switch constantly if I’m looking for a LTR. But if it short term arm candy, why not? There is an expiration date on it.

  • 3. The guy who had the celebrity “hissy” was the infamous ex that I dated for a year. Aside from his contempt of my crush on Ian Somerhalder, his emotional disposition generally fluctuated between anger, contempt, and hornyness.

    Here is to hoping he’ll burn in hell for his blasphemy! Ian is hot, practically the only reason I watch that awful show he is in right now, Vampire Diarrhea (?)

  • @Marellus

    … if I could only get my hands on a Mao Suit …

    Mao was a terrible spokesmodel, even though his image is now used to sell Coca-Cola.

    Think Nehru Jacket. He was much more popular in the 1960s, and carried himself a lot better in it:
    http://trivia.serendip.in/trivia/nehru-jacket

    Dibbs on the one Peter Sellers wore.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Pretty sure this is an oxymoron.

    Not necessarily. I know that “Alpha-Hipsters” do exist.

    I think I should define what qualities I perceive to be “Alpha”.

    1. He has the innate (or sometimes learned) ability to attract many women to him. Whether by his looks or charm, he has a certain air about him that draws women to him like moths to a flame. I don’t believe that a man has to rack up a large body count to be “Alpha” either. To me, it’s about the options. Does he have the ability to attract many women fairly consistently, thereby giving him the option to interact with women out of choice instead of desperation? Does he rarely experience involuntary “dry spells” because the option of other women is always present? I consider that “Alpha”. It consists of the options of choice and abundance.

    2. He has the ability manipulate the environment to suit his goals/desires/aspirations. He’s a “take charge” kind of guy, and he is ambitious as well as competent.

    Can a “hipster” be both of these things? Yes.

    For the record, when I think of a “hipster” guy, I picture a guy with an eccentric (and somewhat eclectic) sense of fashion who is also heavily involved in the arts in some way, form, or fashion. Does he play in a band? Does he write, paint, sculpt, draw, act, etc? That’s what I like. Bonus points are awarded if he has nice tattoos. A motorcycle doesn’t hurt either. 😉

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mireille

    Here is to hoping he’ll burn in hell for his blasphemy! Ian is hot, practically the only reason I watch that awful show he is in right now, Vampire Diarrhea (?)

    Tell me about it.

    To quote a line from the “Legally Blonde” musical, “That guy is like walking porn”. 🙂

  • Regarding low cost men fashion, there are so many brands that other European and close to Eu items, no need to break the bank for that.

    _H&M
    _Club Monaco
    _Zara
    _Banana Republic
    _Kenneth Cole
    _United Colors of Benetton
    _Gap
    _G-Star, etc…

    It is all about getting out of the baggy zone and trying some new stuff. Once you know which brands work for you, you can be creative and shop with confidence. I feel like Americans want to be so low key and that no ones notices them, they end up in the opposite direction being noticed for the lack of care in their presentation. It’s the same for some women, tank tops and flipflops to the bar on saturday night is a blasphemy in my book.
    Unless you’re super obese -and even fat people dress up in Italy-, you can get something that fits and make you look your best self.

  • Sassy6519

    For anyone who cares, here is a youtube link of Brandon Boyd. He is best known as the lead singer for the band Incubus, but he is also an accomplished artist. Here is a short video of him completing a mural for one of his projects.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_QiLb9zbU

    He is my definition of a “Hipster-Alpha”. Not only is he good looking, but he is also a talented singer and visual artist.

    If I could find someone like him, I would be completely overjoyed. The guy does not need to be an exact carbon copy, but I would be very happy if he fit the general mold.

    • @Sassy

      The Boyd video is great, I love his mural. It makes me want to break out the paints. I totally get why you see him as high value, but I’m also fairly certain that he would not make the grade for “manopshere alpha.” Which, of course, is a good thing.

  • Gin Martini

    Of course he is alpha. Sassy’s alpha definition is correct. Lots of options, even if not exercised.

    Good looks that mostly due to his behavior: low body-fat and being in above-average shape, definitely exercises, tattoos, and a sense of style. Without all that, he’d be ugly, even with the same exact face.

  • Anacaona

    If she isn’t – if she couldn’t stand the heat – then I think we have a very interesting case study of a very high SMV male rejected due to preselection.
    BB mentioned that pre-selection works if the woman can see the competition and get room for a strategy and the sense she can win. A undetermined number of women she has no idea how to compete creates too much anxiety for the horniness/intrasexual competition to counteract it. This is again an spectrum probably someone like Sassy can handle a man like BB a lot better than his former girlfriend.
    Maybe he needs to try and find someone so hot that the idea of he cheating on her would be completely unthinkable or that herself doesn’t care that much, just thinking out loud.

    • @Anacaona

      BB mentioned that pre-selection works if the woman can see the competition and get room for a strategy and the sense she can win. A undetermined number of women she has no idea how to compete creates too much anxiety for the horniness/intrasexual competition to counteract it.

      Yes. I’m wondering how this might vary according to certain traits:

      Female SMV and/or MMV: perhaps less willing to compromise or tolerate encouragement by the male towards fans. (This is essentially a high SMV woman refusing to tolerate “dread.”)

      Female STR vs. LTR: The woman seeking a STR solely emphasizes preselection. The woman seeking a LTR sees the potential boomerang effect of preselection.

  • Jackie

    @Bastiat, Susan

    Well, Bastiat, at least you know where you’re at and can make an informed decision of how you’d like to live your life.

    Though I can see how admiration can be like a siren’s song, as compared to love. In many ways, it is much safer. Admiration, to me, is like the feeling one can have for the Pieta, Caravaggios, and Brahms. It can be *intensely* moving.

    And it is much safer than love. Love is like the very forces of nature, awe-inspiring and terrifying in its wake. It is literally transformative, and that is way, way less safe.

    Love involves risk in ways that admiration cannot fathom. The courage to be authentic can be terrifying. The bravery to step off the pedestal of admiration and to be loved for who you are, instead of the god they believe you to be. Just a person, instead of an image on screen projected 50 feet high.

    Love’s risk and reward are basically off-the-charts. When my dad lost my mom, it was beyond devastating. The world went from color to black-and-white. He did not “get over it.” I don’t expect he ever shall.

    And yet, if you asked him if had to do things all over again, I imagine he would make the same choice. In a heartbeat. In my observation, that’s love.

    @Susan
    My viewpoint is somewhat different, re: SMV being the cause of dumpage (if, in fact, BB got dumped). I can totally see BB as the hybrid of Cary Grant and James Bond, and *still* getting dumped! It’s not about the SMV, it’s about priorities.

    BB clearly has a lot invested in receiving admiration. It has a lot of emotional currency (maybe “weight” is the word I’m looking for?) in his world. (Or so it reads to me.) Most women really don’t want to deal with that in a LTR/marriage. I would dump even Cary Grant from the Philadelphia Story if he was diffusing his emotional energy in such a manner.

    • @Jackie

      I would dump even Cary Grant from the Philadelphia Story if he was diffusing his emotional energy in such a manner.

      You’re right, that’s a better measure. Only the high SMV male has the option, but the threat is not in his having it, but in his apparent willingness or temptation to exercise it.

  • Jackie

    @Susan, BB

    By the way, I didn’t mean to be flippant and I am sorry for being guilty of “internet diagnosis behavior.” 🙁 It is kind of the height of presumption and I hope you will accept my sincerest apologies.

    I have turned a pretty unflinching study upon myself recently as well, so I should have known better to offer opinions that could wound, and would not want to do that to people as nice as Bastiat. 🙁

    The only thing I can say in my defense is in my HUS screenplay (SPOILER) Bastiat and Sassy end up together. Sassy will be portrayed by Miss World Namibia and I’m still casting for Bastiat. 🙂

  • ExNewYorker

    The only thing I can say in my defense is in my HUS screenplay (SPOILER) Bastiat and Sassy end up together.”

    Is Bestiat a vegan or vegetarian?

  • Jackie

    @x-NYC’er

    Hmm! Excellent question! One of them will have a scales-fell-from-my-eyes Saul of Tarsus conversion to either raw food or hardcore paleo. 🙂

  • ExNewYorker

    For some of us, it would take the Lord himself in person to pry us away from our grilled, juicy steak, much less a mere woman 🙂

  • Jackie

    @ex-NYC

    It is said, and with good reason, that the Lord works in mysterious ways. :mrgreen:

  • Sassy6519

    Is Bestiat a vegan or vegetarian?

    I don’t know.

    Hmm! Excellent question! One of them will have a scales-fell-from-my-eyes Saul of Tarsus conversion to either raw food or hardcore paleo.

    Hahahaha!!

    For some of us, it would take the Lord himself in person to pry us away from our grilled, juicy steak, much less a mere woman

    Yeah, I’ve never tried to make a man stop eating meat. That is a decision that can only, and should only, be made by the man in question.

    The funny thing is that I’ve had about 2-3 different guys try to convince me to start eating meat. I don’t do it, and they become very frustrated.

    I think it was ADBG that asked why men in my past have complained about my vegetarian lifestyle, and I recently got a great look into some answers to that question.

    I’m not a picky eater whatsoever, so that was never the problem. The two separate reasons I have received, from the guys themselves, are as follows:

    1. One guy said, “I want you to be able to experience things that I do, and I want to be able to share my favorite foods with you”.

    2. Another guy said, “The fact that you are a vegetarian is stupid because you won’t be able to cook meat dishes for me. My mother cooks for my father, and I would expect the same thing from you. You’re the woman. It’s your job to cook for me”. (I did not make this one up. I actually had a guy say that to me word for word. I criticized his argument, but it took every ounce of strength I had not to facepalm right there on the spot).

  • Jackie, I found your diagnosis to be insightful and your “bedside manner” delivery to be very gentle.

    Re: HUS screenplay. I think Sassy ends up with Han Solo and they ride off on a big Harley chopper. Susan and I throw back tequila shots until i pass out and wake up with a new tattoo. Escof cooks. Vox and Mke C show up in an armored, blacked out Bentley Continental GT. Everyone has a great time. Soundtrack by Queen.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, if nothing else, #2 is an alpha thing to say 😀

  • Sassy6519

    Whoops! Blockquote fail.

    HUS screenplay. I think Sassy ends up with Han Solo and they ride off on a big Harley chopper. Susan and I throw back tequila shots until i pass out and wake up with a new tattoo. Escof cooks. Vox and Mke C show up in an armored, blacked out Bentley Continental GT. Everyone has a great time. Soundtrack by Queen.

    Hahahahaha!!! That is awesome.

    I imagine that Passer_By and OffTheCuff would share a few bottles of wine and scare poor SayWhaat with their somewhat pervy demeanors. It would all be in good fun though.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Sassy, if nothing else, #2 is an alpha thing to say

    Indeed it is, and he actually had the balls to say it to my face without any hint of sarcasm.

    Heaven help me.

  • Jackie

    @Bastiat, Sassy

    OMG, I am *loving* these scenarios! :mrgreen: (My other dream is to perform a Jane Austen work with the HUS Players as cast. Any thoughts?)

    One of my script’s highlights has Plain Jane and Abbot trapped together in a stalled elevator, debating plural marriage and sex positive cougars. 😉

  • Escoffier

    balls=alpha

    • balls=alpha

      Not bad, but in that case it doesn’t mean attractive to women.

  • Jackie

    @BB

    PS to BB: I am so glad I did not cause offense. Peace 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Esco, I read that speech and didn’t think “alpha,” I thought “antidiluvian cretin.” (Sorry Sassy, but that speech was really jerky.)

    If someone thinks your beliefs are “stupid” because they will conflict with their own self-serving attitude, they are gross, IMsHO. You can dress it up as “alpha” but selfish is still selfish.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    Esco, I read that speech and didn’t think “alpha,” I thought “antidiluvian cretin.” (Sorry Sassy, but that speech was really jerky.)

    It was definitely jerky, I totally agree with that. I will say, however, that his statement was most definitely “Alpha” because it exhibited a great amount of dominance and frame control. Did I agree with what he was saying? Absolutely not. I openly criticized his argument after he said that to me. Does that change the fact that his statement exhibited a strong “Alpha” frame and dominance? I don’t think so.

    I did break up with him, for what it’s worth. Maybe I can avoid such commentary altogether by just dating a fellow vegetarian.

  • Anacaona

    (My other dream is to perform a Jane Austen work with the HUS Players as cast. Any thoughts?)
    Dibs on Lydia! I always wanted to know what it feels like to be so vapid, shallow and stupid. My best chance to experience it, is to play it on a character 😀

    • HanSolo as Bingley? Jackie as Jane. PJ as Mrs. Bennet? I’m going to think for a bit about Darcy, Wickham and Collins.

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    :mrgreen:

    How about *these* casting choices:

    Mr. Collins = Dalrock (esp. when he starts shaming the family re: Lydia)
    Wickham = Roissy? (he’s probably way too old, though). If you were doing a satire, you could cast YaReallyPUA ;-). Actually what about Zach or Jason?
    Mary Bennet= SSM

    (Ahahahaha! I am scaring the cats with laughing my head off imagining this!)

    If we do S&S, I vote Esco for Mr. Palmer. He seems positively allergic to foolish people! 😉

    • Mr. Collins = Dalrock (esp. when he starts shaming the family re: Lydia)

      Perfect! Hilarious!

      If we do S&S, I vote Esco for Mr. Palmer. He seems positively allergic to foolish people!

      Brilliant.

  • Jackie

    PS: Zach and/or Jason, if you’re reading, I am not saying you ARE Wickhams. Merely that you could portray the role. 😉

  • Jackie

    MUST STOP imagining this, but…

    J & Mr J/Susan & Mr HUS = Aunt & Uncle Gardiner
    Lady Catherine de Bourgh = my grandmother!

    hee hee! :mrgreen:

  • Megaman,

    You have a point, but I like jackets with lots of pockets …

  • Sai

    @SayWhaat
    “Men. Buy pants that fit. If they feel more tight than you are used to, you are doing it right.”
    +1

    @Marellus
    I’ve never seen this program before. Do all the people who ride have issues?

    @Susan
    “Female SMV and/or MMV: perhaps less willing to compromise or tolerate encouragement by the male towards fans. (This is essentially a high SMV woman refusing to tolerate “dread.”)”

    There are cheaper and easier ways to suffer.

  • Han Solo can’t be Bingley. That guy is a follower that just said ‘OK’ when his friend told him not to marry someone he really loved.

    I don’t think there is a Darcy around here. Most guys have declared they abhor chivalry and Darcy is definitely a damsel in distress servant, in spite of his alpha tendencies. He’s like a higher Beta.

  • Also can I nominate Mike C and Ramble for the Wickham part?

  • Anacaona

    That guy is a follower that just said ‘OK’ when his friend told him not to marry someone he really loved.
    Darcy had good enough reasons to convince him, Jane was not sending enough IOI’S for anyone but Lizzy to see she also loved him and her mother was sending the my daughters are gold-diggers message to all Meryton! Marrying for love implies both sides of the marriage.

  • Anacaona

    Hope and hubby: Lizzie and Darcy! 😉

  • @ Ana,

    I’m obviously not an expert in Victorian England Courtship, but even that boring cousin Lizzie rejected got that women in these times had to feign indifference because that was the “proper” thing to do. Passionate people in all Jane Austen books have some shit happening to them or fall under some grave misjudgment. Still, the difference is Darcy waited for no one to tell him what to do and kept his thoughts to himself, until he proposed, in spite of all the unsolicited advice he received not to marry Lizzie. She still have the same mom and sisters when he proposed the first time. Digo que Darcy es un mega cockblocker! Hagas lo que digo, no lo que hago! LOL Nicely done, Mr Alpha!

  • Anacaona

    I’m obviously not an expert in Victorian England Courtship, but even that boring cousin Lizzie rejected got that women in these times had to feign indifference because that was the “proper” thing to do. Passionate people in all Jane Austen books have some shit happening to them or fall under some grave misjudgment.
    Well even Lizzie admits that Jane had been too timid for the time and if you look at other courtships they were more or less clear on their intentions so Jane was too passive as Mr Bingley was so they are a perfect match! 😀
    Still, the difference is Darcy waited for no one to tell him what to do and kept his thoughts to himself, until he proposed, in spite of all the unsolicited advice he received not to marry Lizzie. She still have the same mom and sisters when he proposed the first time. Digo que Darcy es un mega cockblocker! Hagas lo que digo, no lo que hago! LOL Nicely done, Mr Alpha!
    Heh I agree to that. 😀
    I just think that Mr Bingley is accused of being a wimp without taking in account that there was a lot of info that supported Darcy assessment that Jane didn’t loved him and if he proposed she will accept for his money only. He might be passive but he was not an idiot.
    But then aside from Lydia and Wickham I have a soft spot for everyone in Pride and Prejudice even Mr Collins and Mary that seem to be the least favorites everywhere. If I had the Victorian Style I would totally write that Charlotte and him managed to fall in love and a nice love story for Mary and her father’s employee. It would be a nice fanfiction 😀

  • @ Ana,

    I don’t think Bingley is a wimp, just that I’d probably not marry him if Darcy was in the picture; sure D is hotter and has more money but what is hot in my book is that he is independent, generous and keep calm in bad situation, which is what you want in a man. Even when he gave contrary advice to his “bro”, he understood what was good for him and that he needed to suck it up ( just like Lizzie did) if he wanted to be happy. I think it comes down to that question “Do you want to be right or happy?” It turned ok for both of them luckily.

    Oh, I wouldn’t want to share an elevator with Mr Collins. Murder-Suicide waiting to happen! Lol

  • Jackie

    @Mireille

    The “stuck in the elevator” subplot in my HUS screenplay is between Abbot and Plain Jane!

    Oh to be a fly on that wall! 😉

  • Jackie

    @Ana

    This is a fan fic about Miss Anne de Bourgh, who never really got a fair shake, I thought. It’s pretty cute!

    http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5375087/1/Miss-de-Bourgh-in-Bath

  • Anacaona

    This is a fan fic about Miss Anne de Bourgh, who never really got a fair shake, I thought. It’s pretty cute!
    Yeah she is also part of my everyone but Lidya and Wickham should have a happy ending. Thanks for sharing 😀

  • @ Jackie,

    Still I suspect it will end up in the same place ha ha ha ha!

    I imagine Abbot, after hours of endless banter with PJ turning to her and saying:
    “_One of us has to die!
    PJ:”You mean like intellectually, spiritually?…”
    A: “No, I mean physically”.

    Horrified look on PJ’s face. Screen fades to darkness.

    The End.

  • Jackie

    @Mireille

    Reaction of audience:
    😯

  • @ Jackie,

    Don’t worry, we’ll make the trailer very upbeat and spunky, with a “Friends” type background music. Blockbuster guaranteed!

  • Emily

    >> “I don’t think there is a Darcy around here. Most guys have declared they abhor chivalry and Darcy is definitely a damsel in distress servant, in spite of his alpha tendencies.”

    How about Dogsquat? He once described himself as “Captain Save-A-Ho”.

  • Emily

    Mr. Tilney needs to be somebody with a cheeky sense of humor, like Passer_By or Marellus (my apologies if I’m forgetting somebody obvious).

    He’s a more obscure Jane Austen character, but he’s probably the closest to what I go for in real life. 🙂

  • Emily

    I’m probably Catherine Morland because I’m soooooooooooooo awkward! 😛

  • Sai

    @Jackie
    Thanks for posting the link to the AU. 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    Jesse is Darcy.

  • Jesse

    Jesse is Darcy.

    If I get to call you ‘hey baby’ then I agree.

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