The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands

April 30, 2013

stressed_out_manThe number of college educated women ages 35-44 who have married has remained steady at 88% for the last twenty years, but they’re getting married three years later, on average. Both sexes contribute to this, according to Andrew J. Cherlin writing in the New York Times:

It has become the capstone experience of personal life — the last brick put in place after everything else is set.

Still, there are other reasons the sexes delay marriage. The National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia identified the top 10 reasons men today delay commitment:

1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past.

2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.

3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks.

4. They want to wait until they are older to have children.

5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises.

6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.

7. They face few social pressures to marry.

8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children.

9. They want to own a house before they get a wife.

10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

Of these ten reasons, you as an individual are in a position to influence just three (bolded above):

  • You can mitigate his fear of divorce risk.
  • You can demonstrate your own willingness to compromise and to accept him unconditionally.
  • You can bring so much to the table that he will realize no other woman is likely to come close. 

In a recent comment thread, reader Mr. Wavevector shared that he felt rather unnerved upon learning that several friends are divorcing. Divorce is costly to both parties, as it means the setting up of two households and other lost efficiencies. But men in particular fear losing access to their children. I have seen this in my own marriage – Mr. HUS once left a very good job because a change in office location to a remote suburb would have meant that he wouldn’t see the children on weekdays due to the long commute. He preferred the upset of finding a new job to the loss of contact with his kids. 

Society often downplays the emotional needs of men. We expect stoicism, strength and competence from men at all times. If they fail to deliver, as we all do and must from time to time, we are quick to shame them. Writing about shame in The Atlantic (H/T: Mr. WV), Andy Hinds describes the work of Brene Brown, a researcher who studies  “vulnerability, courage, worthiness, and shame.” Brown says that messaages of shame are organized around gender:

For men, the overarching message is that any weakness is shameful. And since vulnerability is often perceived as weakness, it is especially risky for men to practice vulnerability.

What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men’s shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.

“Most women pledge allegiance to this idea that women can explore their emotions, break down, fall apart—and it’s healthy,” Brown said. “But guys are not allowed to fall apart.” Ironically, she explained, men are often pressured to open up and talk about their feelings, and they are criticized for being emotionally walled-off; but if they get too real, they are met with revulsion.

Feminism romanticized Sensitive Ponytail Man but that doesn’t play well with most women. In fact, even feminists don’t like them. Women mostly see those guys as weak and effeminate. In extreme cases, they even feel repulsed and alarmed. 

As women, we are proud to feel strong, yet we do not hesitate to expect our boyfriends and husbands to make us feel loved, secure, even reassured. We’ll ask for it if we have to, but we’d much prefer they somehow “just know” when we need some extra emotional support. Yet we don’t reciprocate by giving them any space to fail, to feel hurt, frightened or insecure, emotions that all humans experience.

A 2010 report by advertising giant Havas Worldwide on contemporary gender dynamics describes the increase in female craving for traditional masculinity:

What we are seeing among many millennial females is that their vision of ideal womanhood is somewhat more traditional than that of their feminist mothers. They, too, want it all, but their definition of all highlights family and personal time at least as much as career. These women are far less likely than their mothers were to feel they have something to prove in the workplace, and they are conscious of the high costs of the sexual revolution. Without wanting to trade in any of the respect or freedom women have earned, they look back wistfully to a time when men were ready and able to take on the role of protector and provider.

In a world of Jon Gosselins and Judd Apatow characters (men frozen in the Adolescent Age), women are looking for controlled masculine strength (not aggression), self-assurance, and competence – a man on whom they can count no matter what. 

…When we say young women want a return to some aspects of traditional gender roles, we are not suggesting they want to return to gender inequality. Far from it. What they seek, to varying degrees, is a return to gender distinctions. They want to celebrate the sexes’ differences and enjoy the yin and yang that makes both parties stronger.

Women want a lot, but what are we willing to give in return? By becoming a provider of emotional support and loyalty, you signal your quality as a long-term partner, and potentially knock out three reasons to delay marriage. Relatively few women are even aware of what men are feeling, much less sensitive to their needs, so by stepping up you distinguish yourself from the pack right away. It shouldn’t be hard for you to earn “best girlfriend ever” status. That’s a sad reflection of the SMP, but you can use it to your personal advantage.

Several male readers offered strategic advice:

HanSolo:

1) Understand the issues that men face, e.g. supposedly we have privilege yet collectively we’re going to college at a much lower rate than women.

2) Feel and convey empathy about general concerns to men and personal ones that the individual guy might have; since men don’t want to show weakness we may not bring these things up a lot.

3) Allay any legitimate concerns the man might have. Don’t flirt with other men. Don’t be entitled. Don’t emasculate him in front of others (or alone for that matter).

It doesn’t always require focused effort. From Lokland:

a) Display good character/personality traits- nurturing/kindness etc.

b) Demonstrate congruence both over time and between social groups.

I think making me feel secure is more of a passive act whereby the less she does to make me feel insecure the more secure I feel.

 In addition to the above, Mr. WV suggests:

Let him know you need him. Being in a relationship means allowing yourself to be vulnerable and dependent. This is true for men too.

Let him know you value husbands and fathers. Talk about how valuable a good husband is to a woman. Talk about how important good fathers are. If your father was great, say how important that was to you. If your father was terrible or not around, say how much you want your kids to have the great father you never had.

Re the way men deal with fear:

Two of the tricks men use to deal with fear are to externalize and abstract them. The first order is to convert a fear to a risk. It’s no longer an emotion I feel internally, it’s a risk that exists externally and can be dealt with rationally. A second order is to abstract the risk further and treat it as an injustice. So it’s no longer just a risk to me personally (which is still exposing a weakness, after all), but an injustice that is hurting a lot of people and undermining society. And it’s surely legitimate to feel righteous anger about something like that!

So understand that when a man frames the issue as a risk or as an injustice, it may be a projection of a painful emotion.

There are times in every marriage where a wife needs to be a pillar of support regardless of her own emotions. I don’t believe my husband has ever felt insecure in our relationship or worried that I would abandon him or our family. I did make many mistakes, but I’ve learned over time what keeps him feeling secure and happy. For what it’s worth, here is what I try to provide each and every day:

Affection and Desire

Do not take your partner for granted. You may know that you love him and are happy to see him at the end of the day, but he can only know that if you show him. No matter what I’m doing, when my husband arrives home I greet him with a hug and kiss, and I earnestly inquire about his day.

I touch my husband a lot. I sidle up for a hug, ruffle his hair when he is sitting down, place my hand over his when he’s saying something important. 

Any time you look at him and think he looks sexy, tell him. My husband is a very natty dresser, and unfortunately for him, I often feel he looks sexy as he’s leaving for work. It gives him something to think about during the day. 🙂 You’re aiming for 100% confidence on his part that you find him desirable. This has more leverage than any other practice, in my view. When my husband feels secure in my attraction to him, his mood reflects it and daily life is far more enjoyable.

Loyalty

Give your guy the opportunity to vent. We all feel persecuted from time to time. Your job is to let him express his frustration and yes, fear, without criticizing or grilling him. You must have his back.  I have found that when I express unconditional loyalty, my husband is able to become more objective. Because he knows that I’m on his team, he will often ask me to brainstorm with him – and I can offer constructive criticism then, if appropriate and necessary.

On the flip side, praise his strengths. When he comes home feeling proud of  himself, celebrate that! Never compete with your own mate. 

Never sass or criticize your partner in front of other people. Over the years, we’ve socialized from time to time with other couples who do this, and it’s always a “one and done” thing. They’re exhibiting their relationship dissatisfaction publicly, and they’re a drag to be around. Whatever your issues, don’t air them in public.

Appreciation & Reassurance

Convey your appreciation regularly for all the mundane and routine things your man does for you. My husband once walked 4 miles in a blizzard so that we could ride out the storm together. But he also did little things every day, like having my favorite yogurt in his fridge or finding me after class for a quick hello. 

Thank him for his help, his effort, and for making you a priority. 

Do not focus on material things. You and your children will need shelter, food, clothing and education. The rest is luxury. Fun vacations, nice cars, designer handbags – don’t build a life that requires these things. Whether you both provide, or your husband will be the primary breadwinner, avoiding financial stress is very important to your relationship. Express gratitude for what you have. I can guarantee that for everyone reading this blog, it is enough. 

Never treat your partner with disrespect. The expression of contempt has been found to be the quickest route to divorce. Avoid:

  • Sarcasm
  • Eye rolling
  • Dismissiveness
  • Patronizing 
  • Mocking or ridiculing

A high value man is one who is strong but emotionally intelligent. On the spectrum between asshole and wimp is where most men reside, and where all marriageable men may be found. When you force a man to suppress his real and natural emotions, you’re diminishing his happiness, and by extension your own. When you give him space for the whole range of emotions, including fear, you cement your bond and strengthen him, and by extension your relationship.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Pretty good suggestions, all in all.

    You’re missing one, though: stay good-looking for him. You don’t have to be a size zero, either; just make sure your waist is smaller than your hips (a pear-shaped figure, as opposed to a round, apple-shaped figure.)

    Just as a guy must apply Game principles to keep his wife interested in him sexually, the wife has to put some effort into her appearance as well.

  • Jonny

    The difference between men and women is very clear. Men are attractive for what they bring to the table. Women are unattractive for what they take from the table. This is apparently normal relationship dynamic and it isn’t willing to change.

  • I think the biggest thing women can learn is to not see men through their lens, but to think of him as an entity with different types of thoughts and motivations. Tap into what makes him tick, rather than what YOU like.

    I read a post the other day somewhere about a woman who asked the populace if her husband was a moron for turning down a night of watching porn with her. On that board, women were pretty much 100% “yes, he’s an idiot”, while the guys were more hesitant.

    In that scenario, the woman had been fussing at him for watching porn for well over a decade, but finally decided she was OK with it. Randomly, while his friend was over watching TV with him, she told him to get rid of his friend so that they can watch porn, said if he treats her right and doesn’t upset him it’ll be “worth his while” later, and waited impatiently for him to get rid of the friend. When he didn’t want to go through with it, she couldn’t figure out what the big deal was.

    At no point did it cross her mind that she went into “Mommy mode” and strong armed his fun, because she wanted what she wanted at that moment. She was trying to be the cool wife, but did it in a way that was completely on her terms.

    Long story short, you have a LOT more power tapping into a guy wants on his terms and learning more about his motivations if you step outside of yourself. Similarly, I had to learn to allow my wife to vent without trying to fix, and give her more physical affection, which I didn’t have as great a need for.

    When you learn what makes him tick in a way that’s selfless, his appreciation will grow tenfold, and you’ll probably stand out more than other women.

  • Zach

    Susan, I hate to say it but one of the very first things any guy who’s successful with women learns to do is stifle any instinct to express internal emotions with women. And it’s not because we don’t have them; it’s because women run from guys who express any weakness or any anxiety. Whenever I’m nervous or anxious, I ONLY discuss it with other male friends (close male friends) or girls that are my platonic friends only. I NEVER mention it to a girl I’m interested in sexually, because the risk of triggering a negative reaction is so high. So women can talk all they want about guys opening up to them emotionally, but they should be aware that any guy worth his salt knows he should never do it. I find it incredibly amusing listening to girls I know talk about how their boyfriends won’t “open up” or “tell me what’s going on”, and then the moment the guy does, the girl is out the door. So basically, women today are conditioning men to “turn off” the emotional part of their minds when they’re around the opposite sex.

    • @Zach

      So basically, women today are conditioning men to “turn off” the emotional part of their minds when they’re around the opposite sex.

      I agree, I hope that came across in the post. The thing is, if and when you get very serious with someone and/or marry, you are not going to be able to stifle what you’re feeling. You won’t want to. Your mate had better be prepared, because there are times when she’s going to see you miserable, upset, sad, afraid, worried, etc.

      In the meantime, you’re wise to suppress those instincts, because women are indeed wary of male displays of emotion. Most women are not prepared to offer emotional support outside a serious, committed relationship, and a guy showing emotional vulnerability before that point can serve as a red flag to women. That may not be fair, but it is reality.

  • @Zach

    I fully agree. And I don’t even blame women for it, it’s just one of those double standards that exist, which probably have some merit to it. If I intrinsically look for a woman that’s stable and loyal to nurture my kids, being a slutty party girl might set off red flags. But me being a man whore is less of a problem.

    Likewise, if a woman is looking to a man as a strong, protector, it might set off red flags if he’s more emotional than she’d like. But her being emotional, of course, is no problem.

    I have no problem venting to my wife or even crying when the situation dictates it, but she needs me to be strong more often than emotional. When I got my heart broken at age 18 or 19, my dad saw the hurt in my eyes. After helping me pick up the pieces, I’ll never forget what he asked me.

    “You didn’t let her see you cry, did you?”

    “No,” I lied.

    He was relieved. I thought he was being old school and didn’t understand that today’s woman expects and embraces this kind of emotion in her man. Surely we’re past those days where you have to pick and choose when you can cry around a woman.

    Wrong.

    We got back together, but it was never the same. And of course, we eventually broke up again. If you’re with a woman that you love, trust and want to share a life with, by all means, express emotion and be true to yourself. But you still have to pick and choose those moments. It is what it is.

  • Escoffier

    See, this is important and not something “capturable” by an appeal to statistics.

    Girls by and large were not like this when I was younger. Certain apex beauties/queen bees, yes, but not most girls most of the time. Once you got past a certain point it was quite OK to open up emotionally to your GF and she would not dump you for it, rather she would genuinely sympathize and try to help. And even if she could not help in any specific way, the sympathy alone was often enough.

    Now, you couldn’t spill your guts on the 3rd date to be sure, but eventually you could with no risk and much benefit.

    So what Zach is describing–and he is hardly the only one–is something new. I don’t think it’s some new element of female character that’s never been present before. But it does appear to be more frequently felt, expressed and acted upon, which is itself an important change, and not for the better.

  • Anacaona

    Wonderful post. Is always nice to see how people that managed to have a long lasting marriage did it. FAVORITED! 🙂

  • @Escoffier

    I don’t think it’s really new, I think it just depends on the context and level we’re talking about. Sure, there are some cold hearted women and girls that don’t expect a guy to have ANY emotions, but I always think, to some extent, a “limit” exists in a woman’s head.

    I’ll use myself as an example again.

    My wife and I were having some money problems. I was 100% and fully joking, but made some woe is me voice and pouty face, and said something along the lines of “What are we going to do now?” My wife immediately snapped to attention and said I shouldn’t talk like that and should be positive, not realizing that I was joking.

    What I realized is that she wasn’t being cold, she was scared.

    To some level, I think all women want their guy to have it together emotionally more than she does. This might mean different levels and limits and your mileage may vary depending on the woman, but I just don’t think that we’re allowed the same emotional liberties.

    Of course I can cry in front of my wife and tell her anything that’s on my mind, but I don’t think we’ll ever be equal on the emotional sharing scale. And to be honest, we probably shouldn’t be.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Great post! +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

    Society often downplays the emotional needs of men. We expect stoicism, strength and competence from men at all times. If they fail to deliver, as we all do and must from time to time, we are quick to shame them.

    So, I think that women increasing their empathy for men and really showing that he can relax and trust her is great advice for women.

    Now, for men, and alluding to what Zack said, the advice I would give is to still not go all emo and unload all your fears on your wife.

    I think that even if the man doesn’t open up a lot (and I would advise the men not to do so too much because they could still trigger her panic buttons by showing weakness) that the man will feel and know that his woman has his back and is loyal and this will make him trust her and love her even more, even if he never verbalizes any of his fears or weaknesses.

    However, he can and should once in a while tell her that he really loves how he knows that he’s her man and that he loves her loyalty to him. Reading between the lines, he’s saying so much more while maintaining his strong posture.

    So, the ways the woman might see the fruits of her doing what you’ve recommended will be indirect. He probably won’t (and shouldn’t) just blurt out, “I love that I can show my weakness around you and you still respect me.” lol Rather, he will act with more confidence knowing that his woman is not a source of anxiety and potential abandonment. He will act with a bit more affection and romance (assuming he’s not a cad–good men respond to feeling needed by the woman they love by protecting her emotionally and treating her well). He will feel happier in the sacrifices he’s making for her.

    Those things are definitely a win for both man and woman.

    So in the world where men’s relationship concerns are often ignored and men are assumed to be evil oppressive patriarchal vestiges by radfems and to a lesser, trickle-down degree by many in society at large, a woman doing what you’ve recommended will work wonders, assuming she has chosen to be with a good guy (the majority) instead of a narcissist or otherwise bad guy.

    • @HanSolo

      However, he can and should once in a while tell her that he really loves how he knows that he’s her man and that he loves her loyalty to him.

      This is a good point. Positive reinforcement is very effective. Always reward the behavior you want to see more of!

      He will act with a bit more affection and romance (assuming he’s not a cad–good men respond to feeling needed by the woman they love by protecting her emotionally and treating her well). He will feel happier in the sacrifices he’s making for her.

      Yes, this is what I have seen with my husband. Usually after a strong display of loyalty or support, he expresses that he feels very fortunate in his life to have married me. It’s indirect, but very clear what triggers these feelings. Also, sometimes he will come back and apologize for having been negative, talked too much about a problem, etc. I always reassure him that it’s fine – my point is that after a little time passes or he gets some distance he is more objective. That works a lot better than my trying to tell him in the moment that he is overreacting.

      a woman doing what you’ve recommended will work wonders, assuming she has chosen to be with a good guy (the majority) instead of a narcissist or otherwise bad guy.

      A very important caveat. A narcissist will only see this behavior as his due. If a woman does all these things and sees her partner taking without giving anything back, she should run.

  • Escoffier

    I took Zach’s point not to be a lament that a man cannot be in emotive mode all the time. But rather that today, with a lot of girls, perhaps most, ANY show of vulnerabilty is repulsive and will be punished.

    So, even with my college GF, I was not crying on her shoulder all the time. But I had my share of bad days and I could go to her for comfort and she would not dump me for it nor hold it against me. I was not afraid that “Oh, if I let her see that this setback upset me, I will lose her!!” Rather my thought was more like, “Gee, it’s nice to have someone I can lean on when I need it.”

    Zach seems to be saying that the modern UMC young woman demands Gary Cooper-High Noon stoicism 24/7 and anything less she holds in contempt.

  • Escoffier

    Really, if it is true that a man has to be on guard against any and every show of vulnerabilty with a woman, then we are back to the exotic pet thesis. And if that is true, then there would seen to be no point in ever entering an LTR, much less getting married.

    I know this is not true because I have found women who are not like this. The questions, then, are prevalance and whether instances of female contempt for all male emotion are becoming or have become more common.

  • The funny thing about Breanne Brown is she originally was completely clueless as to the plight of men. Her research was focused entirely on women and how shame affects them. It took a guy to challenge her at one of her book signings before she even considered that men might be silently putting up with far too much. The law for women is, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease,” but for men it’s more like, “the squeaky wheel gets replaced.”

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: violence is the tool men use to enforce social order, while shame is the tool women use to enforce social order. Violence is exclusively the purvey of the state in a democracy, so men are sort of helpless against female shaming. Basically I feel that men need to be taught to call out shaming when they see it and counter-shame when necessary. It’s not an innate thing, for a man to suppress his anger all the time and deal with the passive-aggressiveness of shame — we need to learn new, rational behaviour.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Once again, great post.

    I think that it is good news that the college-educated are still marrying at high rates:

    The number of college educated women ages 35-44 who have married has remained steady at 88% for the last twenty years

    Do you have the source that shows this by college education? I would be interested to see.

    The changes over the last 50 years in what percent have married by a certain age is shown at:

    http://monogamygame.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/catastrophic-decline-of-marriage

    But it doesn’t divide into college-educated versus not and I would really like to see that.

    I did look at the nytimes article you linked and found this but it didn’t mention that 88% being the same over the last two decades:

    According to the National Center for Family and Marriage Research, 88 percent of 35- to 44-year-old women with four-year college degrees have married, compared with 79 percent of those without high-school diplomas.

    I can try to find the National Center for Family and Marriage Research report but if you have a ready link to share that would be much appreciated. Or if I missed something in the nytimes article please let me know.

    And, just to clarify, I’m not trying to get in an argument about whether the 88% of college-educated was stable over the last two decades. 🙂 Simply curious.

    Thanks!

  • Benton

    “Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.”

    I am glad you wrote this, and I want to point out some consequences of this truth.
    1) Some teenage boys are uneasy with sexuality and shy around women. Unfortunately, this makes girls treat them like garbage, which erodes their confidence even more, which leads to a vicious downward cycle. Some of these boys are able to outgrow it, some turn to “game” so they can change the dynamic, and others remain bitter. But if a woman sees a “shy guy” and boosts his confidence, he may be just as strong and stable as anyone else. The trick is for women to overcome their initial impression and see the potential inside.
    2) Our society encourages women and often undermines young men, especially during school. If you are a young man who is good looking, athletic, etc, you don’t care (the so called “alphas”). Unfortunately, young men who are not quite as confident don’t have someone to turn to for support. In particular, the guys who value and listen to women get a negative reaction, for the simple reason that women are more likely to put down “weak” men than help them. This tendency is worse among the older generation of women, many of whom have become conditioned to fight against oppression and are unable to be sympathetic or nurturing to men at all.
    The perfect example of this is Hanna Rosin, who sees all of these consequences and yet has no sympathy for young men. Even her son calls her a bully!
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/hanna-rosin-talks-about-a_n_1837066.html

  • Charlotte Allen

    My husband and I are celebrating our 25th anniversary today. What a wonderful marriage.

    Susan’s advice is right on. I wasn’t the best-looking of the girls my handsome husband was dating when we met, but I somehow managed to snag him by instinctively doing the things that Susan suggested. I have some additional words of advice:

    1. Learn how to cook if you don’t already know how, and then regularly fix him home-cooked meals. The way to a man’s heart really is through his stomach. You can make really simple things–chicken is always simple–but they will be so much better than anything he gets to eat at the restaurants he frequents. You will also demonstrate that you are capable of making a home for him.

    2. Use female kino: A ready kiss or affectionate touch will melt his heart. There’s no such thing as too much kissing and hugging.

    3. Never, ever, criticize, mock, or quarrel with him in public. If you have a beef, save it for later, when you two are alone.

    4. Never, ever, complain about him to your friends or relatives. If you need to talk about him with an outsider, contact a clergyman or therapist instead.

    5. Try to keep your figure, and try to look nice whenever you’re with him, even it you’re just doing chores around the house.

    7. Be mature about money. Marriage is not one long honeymoon vacation.

    8. Praise him for everything: a job well done at work, help with the dishes the little favors he does for you, his support for you when times are tough. There’s no such thing as too much praise.

    9. Have his back. There’s no such thing as too much loyalty–unless his career is “career criminal,” of course.

    10. Nobody’s perfect. Keep that in mind when you fight, and be willing to make up.

    10. Show him that you believe that marriage is a lifelong commitment. It helps to belong to a religion that forbids or discourages divorce.

    • @Charlotte Allen

      I’m so glad to see you here! I’m a big fan – the New Dating Game article was published when this blog was still new, and was a primer of sorts as I was trying to figure out contemporary sexual mores.

      I’ll enthusiastically cosign your added advice. I too have found that cooking produces excellent results. The downside is that my husband prefers my cooking to any kind of takeout, so I don’t get too many breaks, but it’s a small price for harmony at the dinner table.

      I agree that one should never complain about a husband to others, and never, ever, under any circumstances, to the children. In fact, relating to your comment about stating that marriage is a lifelong commitment, whenever my children said they didn’t like disagreement between us or asked if we would ever get divorced, I was quick to reassure them that I was certain our marriage was for life. I think that even during our most difficult moments, my husband never feared that I had “had enough” or might leave.

      Happy Anniversary! It’s lovely today where I live – I hope your wedding day was this beautiful!

  • Escoffier

    Susan, just in case you are not aware, we have a celebrity sighting above:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/new-dating-game#

    • @Escoffier

      An honor indeed! I saw your comment first, but I like to think I would have known immediately. 🙂

  • Man

    Without wanting to trade in any of the respect or freedom women have earned, they look back wistfully to a time when men were ready and able to take on the role of protector and provider.

    I know that most women didn’t consciously opt for feminism, or the least the kind of misandric feminism we’ve seen in the last decades. Yet women should understand that (misandric) feminism is at the root of the death of romanticism and chivalry and the increasing rise of misoginy.

    Feminism romanticized Sensitive Ponytail Man but that doesn’t play well with most women.

    I was brought up to be the nice guy. I converted, by emotional pain inflicted by the very feminist women who told me to be a “nice guy”, then cleared myself of all this nonsense and contradictory feminist brainwashing and bullshit, and…

    Two of the tricks men use to deal with fear are to externalize and abstract them. The first order is to convert a fear to a risk. It’s no longer an emotion I feel internally, it’s a risk that exists externally and can be dealt with rationally. A second order is to abstract the risk further and treat it as an injustice. So it’s no longer just a risk to me personally (which is still exposing a weakness, after all), but an injustice that is hurting a lot of people and undermining society. And it’s surely legitimate to feel righteous anger about something like that!

    I’ve been through outright hatred of women (already overcome that) but I still think that feminism should be eradicated from planet Earth by forceful means, with no exceptions.

    That said, women like you Susan, give me hope. It’s a pity you already have a husband. 🙂 All the best!

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Thanks for the graphic. I now see it in the article but it’s just a picture of two people running so I didn’t even think to click on it. 🙂

    It’s interesting to think of why the less or non-college-educated people are marrying less. Is it just as the Times says, “marriage has become a status symbol — a highly regarded marker of a successful personal life” and since the less educated earn less on average? Or is there something else?

    If it is the thing that is done after achieving a certain level of success it will be interesting to see if the employment difficulties for the young over the last 5 years and likely to continue into the future to some extent begins to affect the recently college educated.

    I suppose point 9 you list in this post would be consistent with that, “They want to own a house before they get a wife.”

    Any thoughts on this?

    • @HanSolo

      s it just as the Times says, “marriage has become a status symbol — a highly regarded marker of a successful personal life” and since the less educated earn less on average? Or is there something else?

      I think it’s very complicated, and I won’t pretend to understand it well. It’s not just about earning enough to marry – the lower SES groups who do not marry do cohabitate in large numbers. Some of it is cultural. For example, the article states that the uneducated go ahead and have children before marriage, while the educated hold off. I think under 15% of college educated women have kids OOW, and some percentage of those are deliberate sperm donor pregnancies at a later age.

      One thing I found surprising is that 79% of women without a high school diploma marry by the age of 44. I don’t know if that number will drop dramatically as today’s 20-something uneducated women age, but I would expect so.

      I suppose point 9 you list in this post would be consistent with that, “They want to own a house before they get a wife.”

      Any thoughts on this?

      That surprised me, to tell you the truth. It seems almost quaint and old-fashioned. I suppose it depends on where one lives, but you know that in Boston the idea of a single guy in his 20s or even early 30s owning a house is pretty much out of the question if he’s not independently wealthy. I also think that most women would prefer to participate in deciding where to live and in making that house a home.

  • Charlotte Allen

    Thank you, Susan! We are having a lovely anniversary day, even though I’m working (or pretending to be working) on yet another slog of a Weekly Standard story–and the weather here in DC where I live is rainy and gloomy. We did have a brilliantly sunny wedding day, though, but that’s because we got married in Southern California. We honeymooned in Death Valley, which sounds hilarious, but was actually just perfect: a warm but not yet overly hot desert spring, with wildflowers in bloom everywhere for their brief season. Those were the days when you didn’t have to stage an African safari for your honeymoon.

    I’ve been lurking on your blog for months, since I’m trying to write a book about the horrors of our age, when women are so liberated from the past and yet so unhappy. I love your advice; you seem to be just about the only level-headed female advice-giver I’ve encountered. It’s going to be more of “The Dating Game”–so I’m delighted that you enjoyed that piece. At least there will be one reader for the book!

    I couldn’t agree more about never complaining about your husband to your children–and also assuring them that you plan to stay married for life. I’ve lived through some divorces of those close to me–and there’s nothing more devastating to a child than the mere prospect of the parents separating.

    My husband is also such a fan of my cooking that we hardly ever eat out. I don’t mind (it’s a great way to save money), but I do like to dress up and go out on the town. So I make it up by overdressing!

    • @Charlotte

      I’m truly flattered that you’ve been lurking, and delighted that you left a comment. I hope we’ll see you again! Please do keep us apprised of the book’s progress.

  • HanSolo

    Good recommendations, Charlotte.

    I’m reading your article The New Dating Game now.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/new-dating-game

  • Jonny

    “They want to own a house before they get a wife.”

    It seems like couples want to have everything before getting married, which actually IS a good thing, but the thing that gets ignored is people are already experienced in life (lots of casual sex, single parenthood, getting older, 28 and over). This gathering of experience and property makes marriage obsolete. Marriage becomes the icing on the cake instead of the cake.

    No one should wait so long that the couple doesn’t experience life together. People can very well NOT get married.

    • This gathering of experience and property makes marriage obsolete. Marriage becomes the icing on the cake instead of the cake.

      No one should wait so long that the couple doesn’t experience life together. People can very well NOT get married.

      +1 Very well said.

  • Zach

    @Benton 14

    I agree with no. 1 entirely. I was very lucky to avoid this spiral, and it was only due to my having good looks that I did. I was always very confident with other boys, but when I was younger I was painfully shy around women. It may have to do with the fact I went to an all-boys school until 9th grade, but I was the classic stand-on-the-other-side-of-the-room-at-dances boy. I only was able to break out of this spiral because I luckily turned out to be 6’4, handsome and athletic, and so I got female attention due to my looks, not my confidence. Even so, for many years I vastly “underperformed” due to my legacy of shyness with women. It took a couple years (end of high school/early college when I’d fully matured physically) of unsolicited attention from women for me to build my confidence to the point where it was an advantage and not a disadvantage. If I hadn’t had the experience of a few girls basically jumping my bones at a party, I would have likely remained shy around women and had difficulty in picking them up.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Susan:

    I’ll be back!

  • HanSolo

    @Zach and Benton

    I agree that getting some success with women can really help the shy guys.

    My “breakthrough” came at a later age than Zach’s but I remember one time making out with a girl and she randomly told me that I was the hottest guy she’d ever made out with. I immediately thought but didn’t say, “you must not have made out with any hot guys then if I’m the hottest.”

    In today’s society where many men are concerned about being accused of being creepy or thought rapists for approaching (see A Definite Beta Guy’s field reports of late), girls and women making it a bit less intimidating to approach can be very helpful, unless they are only looking for the minority of guys that have the confidence to approach regardless, many of whom turn out to be players.

  • Plain Jain

    “The number of college educated women ages 35-44 who have married has remained steady at 88% for the last twenty years, but they’re getting married three years later, on average.”

    You mean the Manosphere is WRONG yet again?!?!

    You don’t say….

  • HanSolo

    @PJ

    Shut up. We’re not going to turn this wonderful post about showing empathy into a battle over who’s right or wrong.

    Stop trying to stir up shit.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Interest Story,

    A friend of mine was recently interested in buying a house, which then became a condo. This has now gone completley off his radar. His suggestion is that he would like pay off more student loans first.

    I wonder how much a factor it may be that his new girlfriend has decided to move downtown (we are in the suburbs).

    To me, this seemed like a foolish decision: her boyfriend is in the suburbs and they both work in the suburbs. She is now creating herself a 40-60 minute commute every single day, and distancing herself from her boyfriend, because she wants to be a cool kid that lives in a city.

    She also does not want to get a room-mate because she doesn’t like them, so she’s going to be paying out the ass for space.

    Strikes me as silly…

    WRT myself and this whole debate, specifically this comment;

    Really, if it is true that a man has to be on guard against any and every show of vulnerabilty with a woman, then we are back to the exotic pet thesis. And if that is true, then there would seen to be no point in ever entering an LTR, much less getting married.

    I can safely say that I have had far, far, far better fortune expressing anger at the GF, or silent anger in general, rather than anything close to a “woe is me” attitude or anything that could be interpreted as whining.

    The first leads to: what can I do to fix this/how did I screw up/I better give him some space.

    The second leads to far too much “brain-storming” and not anything in the realm of actual emotional support.

    Have you done this, this, this, this? Wow, your attitude sucks. Etc.

    So I was hesitant to share any bad feelings.

    Recently I more expressed to her the sentiment: “Woman, if I cannot talk to you at all when I have bad times, this relationship will not work. I am a simple man that likes simple things. You don’t need to treat my bad days as full-blown emergencies. A simple ‘you’re still cool, here’s a picture of me naked!’ will suffice”

    She has been getting the message at first. As with many women, she relates it to a personal experience, though she knows she does that. Her experience, ironically, was when she broke down during college about her parents potentially getting divorced.

    As she put it, her neighbor came in and started asking her what she was doing about it. And the GF’s response was “they are 4 hours away and I just heard about it tonight, I need to just cry for a little while.”

    After this, we went to see Oblivion, then had some milk-shakes, then had some sexy times in the parking lot.

    Fun weekend.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I should also add that in my household my brother and I sometimes address Mother Dearest as “woman” as an affectionate term of endearment/mild frustration.

    As opposed to, you know, asserting gender superiority.

  • PJ is a good example of a woman who uses shaming tactics to try and belittle men, if anyone is wondering what it looks like.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Han

    In today’s society where many men are concerned about being accused of being creepy or thought rapists for approaching (see A Definite Beta Guy’s field reports of late), girls and women making it a bit less intimidating to approach can be very helpful, unless they are only looking for the minority of guys that have the confidence to approach regardless, many of whom turn out to be players.

    FWIW, I was reading your post and Zach’s post and nodding along the whole way. A lot of my own comfort with girl comes from having positive experience with girls in the recent past: I can point to this girl that liked me, and that girl, and this girl, and that one, and definitely cultivate an abundance mentality and a smooth confidence that allows me to talk with them.

    But part of that was also me forcing myself to talk a lot of girls and realizing that even the complete blow-outs aren’t that bad. Actually, now that I think about it, I definitely remember one time that I DID completley blown-out, as in the girl just snorted and looked away, and posted about it here, but that one time doesn’t even register anymore.

    Gotta have some external validation and experiences before you can get that all important “Inner Game.”

  • JL125

    Excellent, excellent, excellent article….. One that I have saved. Curious to know, is there an advice for “The Care and Keeping of Potential Wife?”

    Thanks

  • Emily

    >> “You don’t need to treat my bad days as full-blown emergencies. A simple ‘you’re still cool, here’s a picture of me naked!’ will suffice”

    Haha that reminds me of something I told my boyfriend. I tend to cry really really easily, so I warned him about this fairly early on in our relationship and told him that if I’m ever crying, all he has to do is hug me and say nice things to me until it stops. 🙂

  • Gin Martini

    [[I suppose it depends on where one lives, but you know that in Boston the idea of a single guy in his 20s or even early 30s owning a house is pretty much out of the question if he’s not independently wealthy.]]

    Check your privilege 😉 The Boston area is much more than rich folks inside 128. There are tons of houses available for purchase on a single salary in towns that commute to Boston, let alone to plentiful jobs in the 128/495 loops.

    Yes – even now.

    I happen to know plenty of young, single men who did it on one salary. They weren’t single for long, though.

  • a definite beta guy

    Emily,

    My gf also cries easily. That is exactly how I described it to her! You have great insight

  • Emily

    Yeah, that’s one scenario where beta/comfort traits are highly appreciated. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    I understand to a certain extent the wish to finish education and to attain a certain professional status before one marries. The wish to have all these assets in hand, however, is more questionable.

    In my own case–and I know this is true of many, many others–one reason we were able to build assets when and how we did is that we were together, not apart. We bought a home four years after getting married. There was no thought in my head that “I can’t propose until I own a home” and had I waited I wonder when the wedding would have happened if at all.

    Far from being a costly decision, getting married when I (we) were still relatively poor turned out to be a great financial boon.

    • Far from being a costly decision, getting married when I (we) were still relatively poor turned out to be a great financial boon.

      It really is a financial boon – it’s like getting a big raise. Everything costs less per person in a shared home. I agree that it makes no sense to build up assets before marrying. That’s not a financially sound strategy.

  • The wish to have all these assets in hand, however, is more questionable.

    Not to mention when a man does it issue #3 gets inflated, as does #5 but not as much. If I enter a marriage with a fourthand couch, a sleeping bag and pillow, an old Sony Trintron that takes four people to move, and some bookshelves made of out planks and concrete blocks I have less financial risk. If I instead already own a 3br home, a nice car, and so on then I’m putting that the line.

    Also, if both couples have houses then the marriage starts with one immediate compromise that is winner take all: which house do we keep? Of course, there is the no winners solution, sell both, but I suspect that’s more likely to lead to two unhappy people instead of just one.

    The more established you are, be it home, career, hobbies, social group, whatever, at marriage the more marriage will require changes and compromise. That means its going to entail more risk. When evaluating financial risk (probability of bad event times cost) even though divorce is less likely as first marriage age increases (to a point at least) the accumulation of assets, especially for the UMC, means the risk is still increasing even though the odds are down. We lack concrete numbers for the non-financial side it’s harder to do numbers on risk (risk of days with children lost for example) but that doesn’t mean its not there.

    As a child of someone whose parents married older for their time (26 and 25 in 1965) I don’t think a return to the wedding being the weekend after graduation is needed but at some point waiting creates more total risk even if the odds of success keep improving. At some point that becomes a disincentive to marry.

  • @Emily

    “Haha that reminds me of something I told my boyfriend. I tend to cry really really easily, so I warned him about this fairly early on in our relationship and told him that if I’m ever crying, all he has to do is hug me and say nice things to me until it stops. ”

    My wife is the exact same, lol. I didn’t know how to deal with it at first, but I’m glad I learned this.

  • mr. wavevector

    This one’s a home run, Susan!

    @ Zach

    So women can talk all they want about guys opening up to them emotionally, but they should be aware that any guy worth his salt knows he should never do it.

    That is good advice early in a relationship, but if you’re in a serious relationship you are going to need a woman whom you can confide in.

    Perhaps guys thinking of marriage should have a “confiding test”, where you open up to a woman you’re getting serious with and see how she handles it. If she splits, she wasn’t wife material.

    I’ve opened up to my wife about a lot of things over the years. When I’ve confided to a serious issue, she had two responses. First, I saw fear in her eyes, like “am I going to be able to count on him?”. Second, she pulled herself together and asked “how can I help you?”. Because she knows her best chance is with me, and our best chance is facing our challenges together.

  • Abbot

    “you as an individual are in a position to influence just three”

    Where is the post about what women can influence when working as a group?

    .

    • @Abbot

      Where is the post about what women can influence when working as a group?

      I assume you mean slut shaming? That’s not going to work.

  • Richard Aubrey

    About the only time I told my wife I was fearful, it was of a job opportunity, I didn’t take it and the whole thing went belly up in about two years. Funny. There was nothing I could put my finger on.

    Mentioned it before: “Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference” by Crabb. Guy is very conservative and very, very strong on the effect, positive or negative, on a husband of the wife’s expressed trust and appreciation. Other writers hit it in passing, Crabb goes into it big time.
    Great review on Amazon, too.

  • Plain Jain

    “Never, ever, complain about him to your friends or relatives.”

    What if you have a husband or partner who is doing this to you?

    “Praise him for everything”

    What if you have a husband or partner who does not praise you?

    “Have his back. ”

    What if you have a suspicion he doesn’t really have your back?

    Also, “Praise him for everything: a job well done at work, help with the dishes the little favors he does for you, his support for you when times are tough. There’s no such thing as too much praise.”

    While being appreciative of sensitive support during tough times and grateful for extra favors, I don’t understand praising someone for doing basic every day chores that are related to adult survival skills like washing. And a job well done at work? Shouldn’t we all be doing that? What’s special about it?

    Its almost like praising someone for brushing their teeth.

  • Man

    “Feminism romanticized Sensitive Ponytail Man but that doesn’t play well with most women. In fact, even feminists don’t like them. Women mostly see those guys as weak and effeminate. In extreme cases, they even feel repulsed and alarmed.”

    With the due respect that women like Susan and her peers deserve, I wish to add a side note about this disgusting video from the quote above. No man on Earth should ever apologize for bad things they have not done. No man on Earth is a priori guilty for things they have not done themselves.

    This is a complete shame and a proof that feminists are coward criminals who should at least brought to international trial for crimes against humanity. These men are in such a miserable state of mind because of the severe brainwashing they were subject to as innocent boys, sometimes even by their mothers or aunts (I had one aunt like that).

    Feminism as we’ve seen on the past decades is one of the greatest crimes against humanity, and especially against the Western and European civilization. They should be brought to justice for doing such psychological damage to innocent boys and inflict so much emotional suffering to innocent and genuinely good men.

    That said, I love you Susan. 🙂

  • Senior Beta

    This is almost as practical as a judgybitch blog article without the vulgarity. Which I miss. Good job HUS.

  • mr. wavevector

    Affection and Desire
    Loyalty
    Appreciation & Reassurance

    These are great recommendations. My wife does all these things too. Just as you described them, come to think of it. It’s a bit uncanny!

    Any time you look at him and think he looks sexy, tell him.

    You might be surprised at how many men have never once been told they look sexy. Even a lot guys in great relationships tend to assume their girlfriends / wives are with them despite their looks. I like it when my wife tells me how handsome I am, but I’m amused too because I don’t really believe it. But she says it with such conviction I’m sure she means it.

  • Richard Cook

    So, what women are really looking for is a version of the character Vincent in the movie collateral. Someone a little to clued in to being a psychopath?

  • Joe

    @PJ

    “Never, ever, complain about him to your friends or relatives.”

    What if you have a husband or partner who is doing this to you?

    “Praise him for everything”

    What if you have a husband or partner who does not praise you?

    “Have his back. ”

    What if you have a suspicion he doesn’t really have your back?

    If you do those things Susan said, then he will not be doing as you have said. You will get gratitude back in return.

    Also,

    “Praise him for everything: a job well done at work, help with the dishes the little favors he does for you, his support for you when times are tough. There’s no such thing as too much praise.”

    While being appreciative of sensitive support during tough times and grateful for extra favors, I don’t understand praising someone for doing basic every day chores that are related to adult survival skills like washing. And a job well done at work? Shouldn’t we all be doing that? What’s special about it?

    But these are emphatically not basic everyday chores. If you get those every day and show no gratitude, you are an uncouth brat and will get that back in return. It’s that simple.

    Now shut up, PJ.

    Thank you for a great post, Susan.

  • Plain Jain

    “If you do those things Susan said, then he will not be doing as you have said. You will get gratitude back in return.”

    Why should I (or the female) have to be the one to start doing those things? If he does them first, then he’ll get gratitude back in return.

    ” While being appreciative of sensitive support during tough times and grateful for extra favors, I don’t understand praising someone for doing basic every day chores that are related to adult survival skills like washing. And a job well done at work? Shouldn’t we all be doing that? What’s special about it? ”

    Joe, “But these are emphatically not basic everyday chores.”

    — Favors and support during tough times may not be everyday chores (which I already indicated), but washing dishes and doing well at work CERTAINLY ARE.

    And those are things that he does FOR HIM, not for me, so I don’t get the concept of “gratitude” in these two instances.

    • Why should I (or the female) have to be the one to start doing those things? If he does them first, then he’ll get gratitude back in return.

      The quintessential SMP Standoff. How’s that working for ya?

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Plain Jain:

    Him: We got that contract, and my boss said the other guys couldn’t believe how well-written our proposal was. Well, guess who wrote it? Me!

    You: [chirping crickets]

    ….

    Him: What a lovely meal. Here, let me do those dishes.

    You: [more chirping crickets]

    And you want this guy to want to marry you? Or if you’re already married, to be glad that he did? Because he was writing that contract proposal for “HIM, not me”? Because washing dishes is an “adult survival skill” and he’s a big boy now?

    The title of this post is “The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands.” It’s not “Who Goes First.” There’s an old saying: To have a friend, be a friend. That principle applies to helpmeets, too. If you really don’t feel like making the man with whom you want to spend the rest of your life feel good, maybe you should try a different man.

  • HereIAm

    While I agree in a way that a man is best advised to not show emotion/vulnerability to a woman he is interested in I can’t believe we are talking about this in such a binary way. Emotional expression can be a sign of strength, resilience, and mature emotional regulation or it can be a sign of disregulation, impulsivity, weakness, immaturity, etc. What matters is how you handle and express your emotions not whether you express your emotions. Now, if you’re not very far along in relating well to your emotions, recognizing them, processing them, owning them, etc then it is very likely that expressing them will come across as vulnerability and weakness. In this case, it is very risky indeed for a man to “show emotion”. But it is also possible to express emotions in such a way that you express strength and turn what otherwise would be considered vulnerability into courage, vitality, resonance, and passion. If you’re closer to this point, emotional expression is an asset to a man and one sign of very high status. Of course the kicker here is that many people, let alone men, never reach this point. And of course it’s highly unlikely that you will find many emotionally intelligent and highly emotionally developed men in their early 20s.

    But I will say this. Being highly emotionally developed is a huge sign of real world capability and what PUA tactics (from what I can tell) can only begin to try and mimic with projections of confidence and attitudes of outcome independence. Dealing well with and harnessing the power and opportunity from difficult emotions, difficult situations, difficult people, etc. is a sign of real strength and capacity. Figuring out how to embrace and express vulnerability as strength is a key to so many things in life.

    • @HereIAm

      Being highly emotionally developed is a huge sign of real world capability and what PUA tactics (from what I can tell) can only begin to try and mimic with projections of confidence and attitudes of outcome independence. Dealing well with and harnessing the power and opportunity from difficult emotions, difficult situations, difficult people, etc. is a sign of real strength and capacity.

      Agreed. Emotional intelligence is probably half heritable but the rest is attributable to effort and self-development, as you say. Behavioral correlates will never trump “inner game” for more than a night or two. Because emotional intelligence can hardly be evaluated that quickly, I think it’s probably impossible to fake. Most PUA tactics are designed to obscure emotion entirely – indifference is always the objective. I suppose if the two choices are total supplication and outcome independence, the latter is preferable. It doesn’t get any more binary than that.

      Figuring out how to embrace and express vulnerability as strength is a key to so many things in life.

      People who don’t ever reveal vulnerability seem shallow and boring, at least to me. One of the reasons women adore the rebel, the brooding loner, the outcast, is that he seems so vulnerable. A life without vulnerability makes emotional intimacy impossible – it’s like living in black and white.

  • Gin Martini

    Joe, Charlotte,

    In a marriage, you would eat dinner together, and share expenses – after all, the legal definition of marriage is that your money is his. Thus, when they go to work, they are also benefiting you, by contributing to your shared assets.

    You obviously wouldn’t praise a glorified a FWB, living in their own apartment for going to work, or making his own dinner for himself. But then you’re just fuckbuddies that don’t have a relationship, let alone a marriage. Your both strong and independent operators, who can leave at a moment’s notice, not an interdependent couple.

    Of course PJ knows this. She never asks a question she doesn’t know the answer to. Be prepared for the response.

    But what would PJ know about relationships or marriage? Instead, ask her about Buddshit Guavajara yoga, and how it is taking over the earth.

    Fo sho!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Never treat your partner with disrespect. The expression of contempt has been found to be the quickest route to divorce. Avoid:

    Sarcasm
    Eye rolling
    Dismissiveness
    Patronizing
    Mocking or ridiculing”

    I cannot stand eye rolling. It is the single quickest way to shut off all communication with me.

    “You can mitigate his fear of divorce risk.
    You can demonstrate your own willingness to compromise and to accept him unconditionally.
    You can bring so much to the table that he will realize no other woman is likely to come close. ”

    A woman cannot mitigate the fear of divorce because the fear is not based upon her actions but the legal system.

    She can make him feel that she will never leave him for the dogs however (even if she decides to leave).

    ‘Its all going to be okay’ will not work because the legal system will still be messed up. As the woman much better to show him that YOU will not do that to him.

    +1, +1 to the next two.

    Great post in general. +1 to all of it.

    • A woman cannot mitigate the fear of divorce because the fear is not based upon her actions but the legal system.

      The legal system is irrelevant to a man whose wife never uses it. A woman can mitigate a man’s fear of divorce by making him feel that his perceived risk is very small or even nonexistent. Obviously, this will depend on the individual guy’s assessment of the risk, and his own risk tolerance.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Who cares what PJ thinks about potential husbands? She doesn’t want one and believes in having sex with as many people as possible

  • Lokland

    Finish reading my post next time 😛
    I said exactly that.

  • Lokland
  • Escoffier

    Should someone explain to Charlotte–who presumably has better things to do–what she’s getting herself into here?

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Escoffier:

    I’m tough.

  • Escoffier

    I gather that (I actually know you, though I doubt you remember me); my point was more about wasting time with our house troll.

  • Man

    One of the reasons women adore the rebel, the brooding loner, the outcast, is that he seems so vulnerable. A life without vulnerability makes emotional intimacy impossible – it’s like living in black and white.

    Insecure Attachment Style is correlated to a whole bunch of bad stuff. It’s tragic, because many of these individuals are damaged through no fault of their own.

    Women have a “fixer-upper” complex.

    They look into a guy’s soul and see more than he is showing of himself, and they become hooked on the idea of getting him to open up.
    A flawed man gives this type of woman someone to work on and mold. They wind up viewing the jerk as someone who is misunderstood and unloved, a lurking lonely soul.

    Women are attracted to jerks, form relationships with them, and then try to justify their choice by seeing things in them that no one else can.

    Whatever it is I always wonder if women are just incapable of admitting that their “instincts” for hooking up are inherently “dumb”, for most if not all women (I know a couple or three genuinely “smart” women). Or also a symptom of more profound issues, such as the pretty woman who never feels pretty enough or that she deserves a good relationship. Our culture assumes that all women have a high emotional intelligence, but there is nothing farther from the truth and they have to struggle just like most men have to. Feminism only aggravated the situation by patronizing them giving them freedom of choice.

    Perhaps this is also just a trick of nature (or some natural Divine Order) to give less attractive women a pretty good chance and value in the dating scene. This “fixer-up” complex to my mind guarantees that most women can always have pretty good hook ups, provided she is capable to outsmart the average woman out there. After all, it’s NOT all about looks as most women think. 🙂

    • @Man

      Or also a symptom of more profound issues, such as the pretty woman who never feels pretty enough or that she deserves a good relationship.

      I think this is huge. Essentially, we have the luxury today of being extremely neurotic and staring at our own navels 24/7. The SMP reflects this.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Escoffier:

    I’ll consider myself forewarned. And do we know each other? Fascinating!

    @Man:

    Women’s “fixer-upper complex” undoubtedly accounts for what I call the Dzhokhar Bieber Syndrome: http://tinyurl.com/ccpdn9y

  • Sassy6519

    Another great post Susan.

    These are definitely great tips for women who hope to get married someday.

    I’m not sure whether or not I’m one of those women, and that fact has become very apparent to me recently. I sat down the other day and had a lengthy heart-to-heart talk with my mother. I admitted to her that I’m not sure whether or not marriage is right for me. I could tell that she was disappointed to hear that, but I’m glad that I was honest with her.

    The more time that passes, and the more introspection that I engage in, the more I understand that maybe I’m just simply not the type of woman who is suited for marriage. It’s kind of liberating to admit that to myself actually.

    With regards to what I will do now, I’m not sure. I don’t think that I will purposefully pursue relationships, at this point in time. If I happen to meet someone that I like, I may change my mind, but I don’t think that I will try to actively search anymore.

    • @Sassy

      I can’t say whether you will want to marry, but I do know that you want love. We all do. I understand your need to take a break, stop searching, etc. Personally, I think you just haven’t met the right man yet. You’re still very young, there’s plenty of time. Don’t let anyone make you feel otherwise.

  • Man

    @Charlotte: Another remembrance that comes to my mind is of those women who love terror or cop rape stories. For sure, feminine, especially feminist women’s psyche, should not be ALWAYS taken for granted and “divine” or “angelic” as our society does. They should be encouraged to grow, know themselves and their motives better, and overcome their issues, take responsibility for their lives and choices (just like HUS does, by the way).

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, on the one hand I am sorry to read that, on the other hand I am continually impressed by your honest introspection and lack of hamster–it’s almost evidence of a philosophic temperment.

    However, you’re–what?–24? Make allowances for the possibilty that your wants and the way you see your life might change.

  • Joe

    I think I see a pattern here. This post has been (rightly) praised by a lot of people, especially the guys. It goes down easy, but I’m afraid it’s not because the post puts it’s finger on the things guys would like the women they know to consider and do (although it does that too).

    I think the positive reaction from the men is because it asks nothing from them (and I’ll include myself in that “us”). The posts that get the most push-back ask the men to consider something and change. This one asks “teh womens” to be different. Right?

    That bothers me ’cause it means we all have a little PJ in us. Time for a little introspection.

    • @Joe

      The posts that get the most push-back ask the men to consider something and change. This one asks “teh womens” to be different. Right?

      That’s an interesting observation. I have noticed that for whatever reason – probably the long-term consequences of feminism – the men are much more reactive to this. The women expect me to tell them what to do, haha, and they rarely get snippity with me.

      This post was inspired by the thread about the fear of divorce as expressed by Mr. WV. That was a great thread, IMO, because understanding increased on both sides. I learned some new things and wanted to share them. That’s most likely to happen when male readers share the male POV.

      It’s funny, some readers (especially of other blogs) keep score on my level of empathy with the “male POV.” They’ll compare 2013 to 2011, for example, and pronounce me more or less friendly to men. Or they’ll highlight one post about the female POV and declare me hostile to the male POV. To me, these accusations sound like battle cries. It reduces the conversation into a perennial conflict between the genders. I find that boring. If I’m interested in relationships, in people getting together and staying together, I must be neutral. I know I don’t always succeed, but I do try. And the men here are an enormous help in that effort.

      So don’t get too introspective – and don’t audit your thoughts!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Sassy, on the one hand I am sorry to read that, on the other hand I am continually impressed by your honest introspection and lack of hamster–it’s almost evidence of a philosophic temperment.

    However, you’re–what?–24? Make allowances for the possibilty that your wants and the way you see your life might change.

    Thanks for the kind words, and it’s true that my circumstances could change in the future.

    As of right now, however, thinking about marriage makes me nauseated. I realized that I am very commitaphobic, and that aspect of my personality doesn’t only affect my relationships.

    In all honesty, the only reason I could ever see myself getting married would be if I met a man who I could be reasonably sure that I would never grow to hate/get entirely bored with/never cheat on. Those are big shoes to fill, especially considering that no man is perfect, and the fact that I am fickle by nature creates the potential for a highly disastrous situation (admittedly mostly for the man in question).

    As shocking as it was, I admitted to my mother that my primary motivating factor for getting into relationships in the first place has been for sex. I meet a guy that I’m attracted to, I enter a relationship with him, and I stay in the relationship primarily if the sex is high quality and plentiful. If the amount of sex dwindles, or I consider the sex low quality, I dump the guy. One only has to look back over some of my past descriptions of relationships to verify this pattern. If I do get emotionally involved with the guy, it occurs way later on in the relationship (maybe 3-6 months in).

    I know that I’m weird in the sense that I get sexually involved with someone before I am emotionally involved with them. After I get emotionally involved, I begin to consider aspects of compatibility between myself and the man (even though that process should have been completed during the initial stages of dating). Once huge compatibility issues are discovered, at that stage of the relationship, I dump the guy. Ultimately, I’ve been doing a lot of dumping because my priorities are off, and I believe my priorities are off for 2 reasons.

    1. My high sex drive motivates me to form relationships instead of forming relationships based off of the merits/personality of the men in question.

    2. I fear getting emotionally involved with a man, and I delay that aspect of relationship building because I fear long-term relationships overall.

    In a sense, I won’t pursue relationships anymore. My motivating factors for doing so before have been for entirely selfish reasons. Until I’m motivated to form relationships for reasons other than the acquisition of sex, I’m going to hold off on trying to form relationships altogether.

    • @Sassy

      I realized that I am very commitaphobic, and that aspect of my personality doesn’t only affect my relationships.

      Phobia is not a personality trait. It’s a form of anxiety, and it’s not rational. It can be treated. You have good and obvious reasons to fear commitment, which as you recently observed, goes along with your avoidant attachment style.

      Don’t spend the rest of your life feeling this way. Get yourself a good shrink. Been there, got the t-shirt, highly recommended.

  • Man

    @Joe: I think that women are pretty much disconnected from men’s needs and feelings nowadays. So I do not see any problem with HUS focus on women’s attitudes. This will only help them to hook up “smart”. Moreover, there’s something you should consider and that Sudan does understand (most women don’t): women ultimately control the SMP and men’s behavior.

    Susan:
    The quintessential SMP Standoff. How’s that working for ya?

    And I would add there is another limit to women’s power: all erections are unconscious and involuntary and ultimately only women can activate them.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, a lot of (most?) people who live to be 80 will never understand themselves as well as you understand yourself. That is an advantage beyond price.

    I admire your restraint in being able to hold back your high drive and stay off the carousel. That, when I read your first post, was what struck me as your biggest problem with this new resolve. “How is that girl going to stay celibate??” That is, I believe you have the willpower, but I fear it might make you miserable.

  • Jackie

    Aw, Sassy. 🙁

    Have you ever considered that this kind of synthetic intimacy (sex without authentic love and trust) is a kind of self-protection? That it’s somehow “safer” than as much as a kiss with after telling him “I love you”?

    I definitely admire you for examining your issues so straightforwardly. (And I can’t imagine telling your mom you are only with these guys for sex! That is bravery on a whole other level. 😉 )

    Just my 0.02, but emotional armor– the refusal to be vulnerable– affects many more parts of life besides romantic relationships. We all have issues and they either have to be worked out or else they grow like weeds and strangle happiness and peace. Finding someone who can help you through this can make a *huge* difference in your life.

    Best of luck, Sassy. You will be in my thoughts.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Sassy, a lot of (most?) people who live to be 80 will never understand themselves as well as you understand yourself. That is an advantage beyond price.

    Thanks again for the kind words.

    I admire your restraint in being able to hold back your high drive and stay off the carousel. That, when I read your first post, was what struck me as your biggest problem with this new resolve. “How is that girl going to stay celibate??” That is, I believe you have the willpower, but I fear it might make you miserable.

    Yes, I fear that it will as well. At the same time, I know that this is a necessary step for me to take in order to have the potential to form a healthy relationship with someone someday. I’m going to have to tackle my sex drive head on. I’m making a conscious effort not to make relationship decisions based solely/primarily on my desire to have sex. I should actually be able to give a crap about the guy that I’m with, first and foremost. That has always come second, in the past, and it’s a nasty habit that I want to break.

    I guess I should shop around at some “specialty shops” for the time being, if you catch my drift.

  • Sassy,

    With regards to what I will do now, I’m not sure. I don’t think that I will purposefully pursue relationships, at this point in time. If I happen to meet someone that I like, I may change my mind, but I don’t think that I will try to actively search anymore.

    You’re gonna meet your husband online.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    Have you ever considered that this kind of synthetic intimacy (sex without authentic love and trust) is a kind of self-protection? That it’s somehow “safer” than as much as a kiss with after telling him “I love you”?

    It definitely is. In my mind, consciously or subconsciously, physical intimacy is safer and less stressful than emotional intimacy. I keep men at a distance emotionally partly because it’s less fear/stress inducing, and partly because it has become a habit.

    Just my 0.02, but emotional armor– the refusal to be vulnerable– affects many more parts of life besides romantic relationships. We all have issues and they either have to be worked out or else they grow like weeds and strangle happiness and peace. Finding someone who can help you through this can make a *huge* difference in your life.

    Definitely. I reached out to my mother, and she actually brought a lot of valuable insights to the table. I’m hoping that I can work through this eventually.

    @ Marellus

    You’re gonna meet your husband online.

    Considering how picky I am, unjustifiably so or not, finding my husband online seems unlikely to me.

  • SayWhaat

    ((Sassy))

    What everyone else has already said. You just haven’t met the right guy yet, but if you lead emotionally, you may stand a better chance of finding him.

    Also, you have time. How are you doing with the Girl Game Challenge? I think it would be very useful for you to practice connecting with others on a more emotional level.

  • mr. wavevector

    I think the positive reaction from the men is because it asks nothing from them

    That’s because it’s about “The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands”. What (straight) men should do is off topic.

  • SayWhaat

    I think the positive reaction from the men is because it asks nothing from them (and I’ll include myself in that “us”). The posts that get the most push-back ask the men to consider something and change. This one asks “teh womens” to be different. Right?

    That bothers me ’cause it means we all have a little PJ in us. Time for a little introspection.

    Bravo, Joe!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan

    I can’t say whether you will want to marry, but I do know that you want love. We all do. I understand your need to take a break, stop searching, etc. Personally, I think you just haven’t met the right man yet. You’re still very young, there’s plenty of time. Don’t let anyone make you feel otherwise.

    Thank you Susan. That means a lot to me.

    I can say that I did enjoy the feeling of love when I was in love once before. I just wonder if marriage necessarily has to follow. At the same time, I know how bleak the statistics can be for cohabitating couples. That’s why I’m so wishy-washy about marriage. I know that marriage is typically viewed as more stable and healthy than cohabitation, but the thought of marriage freaks me out. Marriage equals pressure to me, and it makes me skittish.

    I guess meeting the right guy could alleviate some of my fear, but I have no guarantee that I will ever meet such a man. Putting faith in the idea that my “soulmate” will magically enter my life is hard to do, especially for a somewhat cynical ENTP like myself.

  • Just Saying

    “Divorce is costly to both parties”

    Invariably, it is the man who bares most of the costs of the divorce, he loses 1/2 of his assets, and the wife invariably gets the children, and get money for them, as well as most of the material assets from the marriage. For a man, marriage is like Russian Roulette and playing it shows major stupidity on his part. You are MUCH better off, enjoying women for a short time, and getting a new one – that also satisfies a man more since it is our nature to have sex with as many women as possible…

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    What everyone else has already said. You just haven’t met the right guy yet, but if you lead emotionally, you may stand a better chance of finding him.

    Also, you have time. How are you doing with the Girl Game Challenge? I think it would be very useful for you to practice connecting with others on a more emotional level.

    I haven’t really put much effort into the Girl Game Challenge for this week, to be honest. I’ve struck up conversations with a few strangers, but I didn’t think that the results were very interesting. That’s why I didn’t share them.

    As for meeting the right guy, only time will tell. What I do know is that I can help myself by not getting in my own way/engaging in self-sabotage. If I can interact with men from the right angles, with the right motivations, and with a good head on my shoulders, I just may be able to meet such a man. I do know, however, that focusing on sex primarily is not the best way of going about that task.

  • SayWhaat

    I haven’t really put much effort into the Girl Game Challenge for this week, to be honest. I’ve struck up conversations with a few strangers, but I didn’t think that the results were very interesting. That’s why I didn’t share them.

    Tailor the challenge to suit your personal needs. I know that after expressing kindness to someone, I feel softer and vulnerable, but no less stronger. That may be useful for you to explore.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I really don’t think she needs a shrink. I mean, how many people have you ever come across–in writing or in person–who think so clearly and understand themselves so well? In a way, she’s her own shrink.

    If Sassy has a problem, it would seem to me to be that she doesn’t think any man is worthy of her commitment, not that she is commitment-phobic. This could be solved in one of two ways: 1) she meets a man she finds worthy; 2) she gets older and lots of things she now considers “dealbreakers” just fall away in importance.

    I would bet that 2 is quite common for a lot of people and not something to be overly alarmed about.

    • @Escoffier

      Susan, I really don’t think she needs a shrink. I mean, how many people have you ever come across–in writing or in person–who think so clearly and understand themselves so well? In a way, she’s her own shrink.

      Sassy understands that she avoids emotional intimacy. She also understands that this is because she grew up with an alpha father. She’s figured that out, but she’s stuck. She can’t move forward, and whenever she tries, she recoils from commitment.

      I also suspect that some of the sex drive stuff is related to this. Sassy is not promiscuous, but many women with her history are. She’s seeking connections, but only physical ones. Yet she is not happy alone.

      Sassy has a problem she doesn’t know how to solve, and getting older is not going to do it.

      I don’t mean to talk about Sassy as if she isn’t here – but if she were my daughter that is the course I would insist she pursue. It’s obviously her decision.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “It’s funny, some readers (especially of other blogs) keep score on my level of empathy with the “male POV.” They’ll compare 2013 to 2011, for example, and pronounce me more or less friendly to men. ”

    I’ve gone back and re-read some of your original stuff (2009ish) and your tone has changed. Looking back at that I can see why you got the feminist label./unsympathetic/not understanding of men.

    Over time your opinions have changed (for the better) to become more male friendly.

    I could see how someone invested in the all women are evil meme could read that as being a purposeful deception on your part.

    Note: best one I have run across is your insistence that doing the dishes will get a guy laid (2009) vs. what you told ted a few months ago. I think it represents the growth in your understanding of intergender dynamics more so than some nefarious plot to take down the manosphere.

    • @Lokland

      I’ve gone back and re-read some of your original stuff (2009ish) and your tone has changed. Looking back at that I can see why you got the feminist label./unsympathetic/not understanding of men.

      Over time your opinions have changed (for the better) to become more male friendly.

      Yes, my tone definitely changed in the first year of the blog as I learned more about the LT effects of feminism on the SMP.

      Some men view me today as unfriendly to the male POV. What they really object to is that I am unfriendly to the Dark Triad POV, whether held by males or females.

      Note: best one I have run across is your insistence that doing the dishes will get a guy laid (2009) vs. what you told ted a few months ago. I think it represents the growth in your understanding of intergender dynamics more so than some nefarious plot to take down the manosphere.

      I think that was cooking dinner and I stand by it, provided the woman is attracted enough to be at your apartment for dinner in the first place. A guy cooking dinner can shorten the time to sex by at least 2-4 dates, IMO. 🙂

  • Jackie

    “Don’t spend the rest of your life feeling this way. Get yourself a good shrink. Been there, got the t-shirt, highly recommended.”
    ===
    +infinity

  • Considering how picky I am, unjustifiably so or not, finding my husband online seems unlikely to me.

    People reveal their true selves in an online environment. The trick is … you’ve got to fit a mental voice to each person’s comments. If you fit the right voice to the person’s comments, that person becomes quite clear to you.

    So you no longer have to to listen to your ovaries in such interactions; you listen to their voices, and sometimes their voices can be seductive.

    Don’t believe me ?

    Deti has a high pitched wheedling voice. There is the rat-tat-tat of GBFM. HanSolo has a calm reasonable preacher-voice. Escoffier has a monotone that can suddenly turn icy. Suzan talks like a drill-sergeant. ADBG is an endearing and excitable chirper. Megaman has the staccato of a machine gun. And PJ sings like an angry Bollywood actress.

    Remember that.

  • Jackie

    Esco, maybe not a shrink but I think that people really need some kind of assistance to go through transitions, instead of going it alone.

    Other people can see things about us that we can’t, no matter HOW self-aware a person is.

  • Jackie

    @Marellus

    “People reveal their true selves in an online environment. The trick is … you’ve got to fit a mental voice to each person’s comments. If you fit the right voice to the person’s comments, that person becomes quite clear to you.”
    ===
    Marellus, this is *awesome*! Do more!

    Who is Abbot?! 😯

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    “I mean, how many people have you ever come across–in writing or in person–who think so clearly and understand themselves so well? In a way, she’s her own shrink.”
    ===
    Esco, is it possible you are conflating intellect/self-awareness with emotional intelligence? They are two different things, in my experience. I have seen *brilliant* minds who constantly self-sabotage. And *know* why they self-sabotage. And still… can’t seem to overcome it.

    Also, there is something about American self-sufficiency in your comment that could be really interesting to unpack. But unfortch, will only be unpacking *boxes* for the rest of the day. 🙁 Moving!

  • Lokland

    “Who is Abbot?! ”

    I thought he was a bot for the longest time…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    Esco, is it possible you are conflating intellect/self-awareness with emotional intelligence? They are two different things, in my experience. I have seen *brilliant* minds who constantly self-sabotage. And *know* why they self-sabotage. And still… can’t seem to overcome it.

    True, my emotional intelligence is severely lacking. I can understand logically what my problem is, as well as understand my motivating factors, but I don’t really know how to allow myself to be more emotionally vulnerable. When I do think about it, I feel anxious and nauseated. The feeling has its root in fear and the desire for self-protection.

    It’s probably also why I have difficulty with certain aspects of femininity. I view such vulnerability as weak, and I can barely bring myself to act in such manners. I’ve hardened myself to the point that I’m barely able to feel vulnerability, not to mention allow myself to be vulnerable.

  • Who is Abbot?!

    Think of an intoxicated cupid, wearing uncured leopard skins, that crashes into a wall, and then says in a puzzled, yet deep and resonant, voice :

    Mwahahahahaha !!!!! ???

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    People reveal their true selves in an online environment. The trick is … you’ve got to fit a mental voice to each person’s comments. If you fit the right voice to the person’s comments, that person becomes quite clear to you.

    So you no longer have to to listen to your ovaries in such interactions; you listen to their voices, and sometimes their voices can be seductive.

    Don’t believe me ?

    Deti has a high pitched wheedling voice. There is the rat-tat-tat of GBFM. HanSolo has a calm reasonable preacher-voice. Escoffier has a monotone that can suddenly turn icy. Suzan talks like a drill-sergeant. ADBG is an endearing and excitable chirper. Megaman has the staccato of a machine gun. And PJ sings like an angry Bollywood actress.

    Remember that.

    Hmmm. That makes sense.

  • Jonny

    “The legal system is irrelevant to a man whose wife never uses it. A woman can mitigate a man’s fear of divorce by making him feel that his perceived risk is very small or even nonexistent. Obviously, this will depend on the individual guy’s assessment of the risk, and his own risk tolerance.”

    I agree; however, divorce is still a real possibility even under the best circumstances like the woman is not a material person and she doesn’t make financial demands.

    The legal system is there as leverage for a woman to make threats. It happened with the first wife. She didn’t want my money, but she did try to strongarm a marital agreement that works in her favor. It was a nightmare.

    No matter how it looks, the woman has the law on her side. It is only until after the divorce that man has the power unless he lets the woman move in with him or she gets pregnant and have a kid, then the law gives the woman some additional power.

  • Jackie

    @Sassy

    Sassy, I am sure you are familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? It seems to me that you were denied a really basic need: The need to feel protected by your dad. (Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the story.)

    The idea that vulnerable = nausea is like asking someone who has suffered violence to walk down the street late at night. That wound from the past is so intense that *even if it’s not true in the present* you can’t override it.

    Maybe something to work on (even if only through journalling, where you keep it completely private) is the notion that vulnerability = weak. In my experience, you have to be as strong as hell to admit things, be real and be vulnerable. It scares the crap out of most people, and so they posture and front. *That* is weakness masquerading as strength.

    You’re definitely not alone, Sassy. Hang in there–

  • Jackie

    @Marellus

    Hahahaha!
    😎

    More, more!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Susan, I really don’t think she needs a shrink. I mean, how many people have you ever come across–in writing or in person–who think so clearly and understand themselves so well? In a way, she’s her own shrink.

    I do feel like my own shrink. I could always use another helping hand though, especially considering that there may be aspects of myself that even I can’t see/understand.

    If Sassy has a problem, it would seem to me to be that she doesn’t think any man is worthy of her commitment, not that she is commitment-phobic. This could be solved in one of two ways: 1) she meets a man she finds worthy; 2) she gets older and lots of things she now considers “dealbreakers” just fall away in importance.

    I would bet that 2 is quite common for a lot of people and not something to be overly alarmed about.

    True. The main reason why I am so picky is because I’m very aware of just how fickle I am. I just don’t want to be the woman who ends up destroying a man due to my own carelessness. If I ever marry, I would have to be very VERY sure about the man in question. I don’t want to make a half-hearted decision or choice. I don’t want to marry just for the sake of being married, only to divorce the guy later. I don’t want to put a guy through the “divorce ringer”, but I also don’t want to spend a significant portion of my life in an unhappy marriage. I watched my mother do it, and I refuse to follow in her footsteps in that regard.

    In a sense, either I meet the right guy, I change my requirements/outlook, or I remain single. In connection with that, I would rather remain unmarried than cause a man or myself great pain. For me to get married, I would either need to find the “perfect” guy or allow myself to take a leap of faith/be vulnerable. I’ve been too averse to the idea of being vulnerable (and perhaps for subconsciously good reasons), but my aversion to emotional vulnerability also stands in my own way of feeling love.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, I’m not talking about “settling.” I think you’ve always been very clear that that’s something you will never do. The guys here (if I may speak for them) all admire that, both the clarity and the resolve.

    What I mean is more that your tastes change and somewhere down the line you chuckle to yourself and ask “Now WHY did I ever care so much about THAT? Ah, youth.” In other words, you would not be ending up with a given man IN SPITE of his lacking trait X, but because you no longer care so much about trait X, and he has all the other stuff you want.

    • The guys here (if I may speak for them) all admire that, both the clarity and the resolve.

      Sassy is extremely masculine in her thinking and in her communication style. That’s why you like it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    Sassy, I am sure you are familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? It seems to me that you were denied a really basic need: The need to feel protected by your dad. (Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the story.)

    The idea that vulnerable = nausea is like asking someone who has suffered violence to walk down the street late at night. That wound from the past is so intense that *even if it’s not true in the present* you can’t override it.

    I know that things ultimately boil down to this. The key is for me to allow myself to be more emotionally vulnerable, despite how anxious/nauseated/fearful I feel about it. I need to face my fears and deal with any negative reactions I have. Eventually, being emotionally vulnerable with men will become easier and easier over time. The first step may be the hardest, but it’s necessary in order to be able to take further steps.

    This is why I’ve decided to stop interacting with men from a place of sexual motivation. When I strip that away, I’ll be forced to interact with men on a more emotional level first. I won’t be able to use sex as a way of keeping my emotional distance. I actually have to build emotional ties between myself and a man, which I have difficulty in doing.

    I’m basically entering emotional “training/bootcamp”.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Sassy, I’m not talking about “settling.” I think you’ve always been very clear that that’s something you will never do. The guys here (if I may speak for them) all admire that, both the clarity and the resolve.

    What I mean is more that your tastes change and somewhere down the line you chuckle to yourself and ask “Now WHY did I ever care so much about THAT? Ah, youth.” In other words, you would not be ending up with a given man IN SPITE of his lacking trait X, but because you no longer care so much about trait X, and he has all the other stuff you want.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that men did not appreciate the idea that a woman’s tastes/priorities can change over time. I thought that men viewed such ideas as a form of “settling”.

  • Escoffier

    Nah, at least I don’t. Everyone’s tastes change as we age. I think the vast majority of guys will admit that the priority we place in looks at age 18-21 is not the same as when we are 28-31. Maturity has a way of helping us sort through and order our priorities in more sensible ways. So, looks never disappear but they recede in importance while other traits rise.

  • Escoffier

    Wait, I think you are mixing up memes here. What guys DO object to is “price discrimination,” that is, women who have their fun in youth and don’t give them a second look but then try to grab them when the clock ticks. That’s more calculation than maturity, and it really is settling in the absense of maturity.

  • Jackie,

    … then he falls down; comes to rest against the wall, takes a swig from the bottle; lifts his leopard skins to check the equipment … and forlornly shouts :

    MULTIPENIS !!!???

  • Russ in TX

    You can’t change AND stay the same.

    That scares people, so they make every excuse in the book not to change. But if you and your partner both grow, then eventually so do your tastes.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    That’s an interesting observation. I have noticed that for whatever reason – probably the long-term consequences of feminism – the men are much more reactive to this. The women expect me to tell them what to do, haha, and they rarely get snippity with me.

    I think this pushback comes from the nature of women, thinking that they can change their man AFTER they marry. With the advent of feminism, the “have it all” movement, and the disneyesque view of marriage, I happen to think that a lot of women go into marriage thinking that whatever issues they have with their guy will magically disappear, he will change for them and marriage will be this enlightening spirtual journey for the couple to take together. The reality is that this isn’t the case, as most of us understand.

    OTOH, I think the vast majority of guys, when they decide to marry a woman, accept her for what she is and for what they know about her (which is why hiding the past or secret, and having it come out during the marriage can be devastating for a man). They may not be fond of a few things here and there (no one is 100% perfect), but men tend to easily get over this fact, accept it, work around it and want to build a solid life together in spite of it. So many women tend to take the exact opposite approach, barely bring up things they aren’t fond of, and then EXPECT the man to change. When he doesn’t change, as most people rarely do, they are ready to bitch, moan and possibly leave because in their own mind the marriage contract came with the obligation of the man changing (although the man is unaware of this).

    Men really are loathe to “have to” change for women because that is not what we expect from our partners, and acceptance and loyalty is huge for guys.

    • @Jason

      So many women tend to take the exact opposite approach, barely bring up things they aren’t fond of, and then EXPECT the man to change. When he doesn’t change, as most people rarely do, they are ready to bitch, moan and possibly leave because in their own mind the marriage contract came with the obligation of the man changing (although the man is unaware of this).

      May I ask the source for this claim? It doesn’t really follow from the data, marriage research or anecdotal evidence I’m aware of.

  • Gin Martini

    Awesome, Marellus – more. Do everyone.

    Sassy, you’ve realized what we’ve been trying to tell you for years. You don’t want marriage or relationships or monogamy, really. Not at this point. Give yourself permission to have what you want, and there’s no reason to be celibate. Maybe your mind will change in the future, but probably not.

    • @Gin Martini

      Last night I was thinking “I like this Gin Martini character.” Later I thought, “I wonder where OTC has gone.” Then, Bingo!

      I do think it’s pretty funny that SayWhaat thought you were PJ 😛

  • Jason773

    Related to my last post, Women: Never ever do the “bait and switch” and expect to have a happy, productive, conflict free marriage.

    Men are OK with being dismissed for “this, this and that” early on in a relationship, but it goes against every fiber of a man’s being for it to be assumed or to be told that “this, this and that are fine by me, and I accept it” only to find out later on that it all is really hated and it must be changed.

  • BuenaVista

    Sassy writes: “For me to get married, I would either need to find the “perfect” guy …”

    Sassy, I don’t know if you’re Christian because I haven’t read this entire thread. If you are, or for anyone else identifying with her dilemma, I recommend _Counterfeit Gods_ by Tim Keller. If you’re not Christian but do not mind a sola scriptura approach to these issues, I still recommend it.

    Just as men should not pedestalize women, women should not pedestalize men. Ironically for a one-time secular humanist, Keller asserts none of us should make an idol — pedestalize — marriage. “The Perfect Family”, Keller says, doesn’t exist. Neither does the perfect husband, perfect wife, perfect job, perfect life. Apologies if you’re not a Christian and this stuff is annoying.

    I was a cradle Unitarian and thus a lifelong religious liberal, said term really an oxymoron. I became a Christian when I realized that my lifelong effort to achieve the perfect family had failed, and was GONE, and Keller suggests that my issuing that effort is an expression of desire for … a counterfeit god. Oddly, this was of great comfort. It also allowed me to forgive my ex- for some things, and to expiate some of my shame in failing.

    His book is about divorcing ourselves from our temporal obsessions, which he believes are false idols. In love and marriage, this allows us the grace of recognizing the imperfect humanity of all around us. That’s impossible if we are forever requiring transcendent power and beauty in our most important relationships. Because he’s a Christian, he asserts that there is only one such transcendent relationship.

    Put another way, I try to remember that when I’ve been in love it is the woman’s imperfections, not her transcendent qualities, that I love most.

    Another conclusion I drew is that I would never submit myself to any person who didn’t have a belief system in something higher than the hurly-burly of our day-to-day. The SMP, or OKCupid, the corner bar and corner coffee shop, are useful things. They are just tools, though. If you want perfection, don’t look to find it in another human. The safer humans are the ones who have sufficient humility to be capable of empathy, and sufficient integrity to subsume their egos to the lifelong construction of something larger than themselves.

    • @BV

      The safer humans are the ones who have sufficient humility to be capable of empathy, and sufficient integrity to subsume their egos to the lifelong construction of something larger than themselves.

      +1

      Well said, and your use of the word “safer” is apt. People without empathy or integrity wreak havoc with the emotional well-being of anyone who cares for them.

  • Joe

    Susan. Congratulations. You’re about to have an “Instalaunch”. http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/168078/

    Would this be your first time? 😉

    • @Joe

      Wow! This is the second time Glenn Reynolds has linked to me. It’s awesome – he’s sent over 2,000 people here in three hours. Thanks for alerting me – I hadn’t realized.

  • Sassy6519

    @ BuenaVista

    When I say the “perfect” man, I do not mean a man without flaws, nor do I mean a saintly being. I simply mean a man that is well suited for me, flaws and all.

  • md

    Never treat your partner with disrespect. The expression of contempt has been found to be the quickest route to divorce. Avoid:

    Sarcasm
    Eye rolling
    Dismissiveness
    Patronizing
    Mocking or ridiculing

    Sarcasm, eye rolling, dissmissive patronizing and mocking, disrespectful ridicule directed at men/husbands by women/wives are go-to staples of advertising today across all media, and have been so for several decades.

    99.9% of men in TV commercials, programs and movies are either helpless beta effeminates or knuckle-dragging clods, always thoughtless & nearly always ignorant of basic life skills and responsibilities real men learn about and take seriously from birth.

    And so now society comes to realize that men who inhabit this real world don’t particularly like to be treated or depicted as either cavemen or wimps and will thus avoid like the plague women who do so? Shocking!

    • 99.9% of men in TV commercials, programs and movies are either helpless beta effeminates or knuckle-dragging clods, always thoughtless & nearly always ignorant of basic life skills and responsibilities real men learn about and take seriously from birth.

      Very true. The good news is that more and more people are pointing this out. I see it mentioned frequently these days. Too little too late perhaps, but I am encouraged by the shift in cultural mores during the 4 years I’ve been blogging.

  • tilikum

    its almost like you are saying that girls should be nice?

    where have i heard that before….

  • J

    In a sense, I won’t pursue relationships anymore. My motivating factors for doing so before have been for entirely selfish reasons. Until I’m motivated to form relationships for reasons other than the acquisition of sex, I’m going to hold off on trying to form relationships altogether.

    Hey, Sassy. It sounds to me that the problem is an inability to actually have a relationship with real emotional intimacy. It sounds almost as though these men are not real people to you with their own issues and complexities but men you try to slot into a role they can’t fulfill. You don’t seem to be looking at these men as people with their own needs; they are easy to dismiss when they don’t fit yours. I agree with Susan that this is commitment-phobic, but I also think you may have some unfulfilled childhood needs that need to be looked at. Perhaps you are bailing out of relationships before people have a chance to hurt or disappoint you.

  • J

    This is why I’ve decided to stop interacting with men from a place of sexual motivation. When I strip that away, I’ll be forced to interact with men on a more emotional level first. I won’t be able to use sex as a way of keeping my emotional distance. I actually have to build emotional ties between myself and a man, which I have difficulty in doing.

    I commented before I saw this. You’re on the right track.

  • Sassy, you should not be so averse to being vulnerable. I heard a TED talk recently by a woman who said, and I think rightly, that vulnerability requires a lot of strength. It requires you to be fearless and confident. It is a seeking of intimacy and connection with another person, things that we want but are often afraid to get. It is different from just making a post or status update on social media. It is more genuine and real.

    http://www.npr.org/2013/03/29/174033560/can-we-gain-strength-from-shame

    She gave the example of a friend who had a death in the family, and the moment before you pick up the phone to call that person to offer condolences as being vulnerable. Many people do not do it, and the feeling she said she had for not making that call is shame and weakness. Being vulnerable requires courage, as it is something that reveals something about you and brings you closer to the other person. After I heard the story, I have tried to make it a point to reach out whenever I see someone seems in need of it.

    In the aftermath of our first son’s passing, one friend came to visit me in the hospital. I will never forget that, and I am very grateful that she came by. It did not matter that it was somewhat awkward, and there was really nothing she could have done to make things any better. The fact that she was there was enough.

    The same is true of when my husband first started talking to me. We could have kept to the light hearted topics that were just platonic, but we delved deeper and opened ourselves up to each other. That kind of vulnerability allowed us to fall in love, because we were not terrified of being hurt or rejected. We summoned the courage to love and be loved. That is the power of vulnerability.

  • tilikum

    honestly the very best relationship is where both parties pedestalize each other to some degree.

    imo

    • @Tilikum

      honestly the very best relationship is where both parties pedestalize each other to some degree.

      imo

      That’s a great insight. I have never thought of it that way, but you’re onto something. Mr. WV mentioned that his wife tells him how handsome he is, and he does not believe her, but he does believe that she thinks so.

      My husband has called me sexy before when I was at my worst – just gross. I look at him like he’s lost his mind, and he just repeats it. I think he’s deluded, he thinks I’m too hard on myself.

      I think relationships do work well when each person wears blinders of a sort. For example, when I look at my husband, who is 58, I see him at 28. If someone were to stop me and instruct me to note his salt and pepper hair, his crow’s feet, I would be taken aback. When did those appear?

  • BuenaVista #122.

    How do you define hope then ?

    St Paul said that of faith, hope and love … love is the greatest …

    Bullshit.

    It’s about hope. Only hope. We can only understand hope … that’s what keep us going …

    Hope conquers love, because love disappoints …

    What is hope then …

  • Sassy6519

    @ J & Hope

    Thank you both for the kind words/advice. I’ll definitely keep it all in mind.

  • @Charlotte Allen

    You are exactly right! My wife and I have been married 33 years and I vouch for everything you say.

    One more of my own. Ladies, do not be the women who wants bling. Be the woman for who makes your husband want to get you bling. And he will.

    Also, there should be no such thing as “my money” and “his money.” There is only “our money” in a marriage. The only exception is actual gift moeny, as for birthdays or Christmas. That really should be yours – and his really should be his. If you think you should be able to, um, advise him on what he buys with his gift money, then he’ll advise you on yours.

    If you make your marriage child centered, when you’re empty nesters you’ll have nothing at the center.

    Married couples who worship weekly together are less likely to divorce, self report more and more fulfilling sexual relations and live longer.

    Do.Not.Borrow.Money. Except to buy a house. Debt is one of the greatest marriage killers in America.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Regarding the risk of divorce, it doesn’t matter how nice the woman is. She still has the legal power to destroy your life for any reason or none at all; once the woman feels differently, she can crush her man totally, and the culture will cheer her.

    These are excellent suggestions for a wife, and it is the best an ordinary woman can do in the current legal and cultural climate. However, the man is still taking a stupendous risk in marrying at all, since he is putting himself under the unlimited power of the wife.

  • “There is only “our money” in a marriage. The only exception is actual gift moeny, as for birthdays or Christmas.”

    Totally agree with this. My husband and I do have separate accounts in addition to a joint account, and when he talks about money from my account (because I pay most of the bills from mine) I gently remind him it’s our account.

    Sassy, I think you’re on the right track. I didn’t think I would have the marriage I have now when I was 24. In fact I was such a cynic and pessimist back then! A lot changes after your mid 20s. For one thing our brains really mature then. That leads to at least somewhat better decision making.

  • GILGAMESH

    What TRIPE!
    Ladies, you only need to do one thing:
    BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE.
    Marriage is a partnership. Together, you and your hubbie need to sum to more than 2. Both need to put the other’s needs ahead of their own. The second y0u start demanding/negotiating/partitioning, you’re showing you’re in it for yourself, and you’re a leech.
    Women today – especially American women – are incredibly WEAK. They have nothing to offer except neuroses, complexes, hagginess, posturing, self-serving prattle and self-centeredness. None of you have the backbone of your grandmothers. You don’t know the meaning of Strength, whether physical or mental.
    BRING SOMETHING TO THE PARTY. Or stay spinsters or married ‘unfulfilled’ hags with stupid useless brats, it’s all the same to us.

    • @Gilgamesh

      I see you’re from the “no good deed goes unpunished” camp. If women bring something to the party, are you going to be present and ranting? I think we’d have more fun if you stayed home…

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Donald:

    Right on! Especially about debt. There is absolutely nothing worth borrowing for: not education (except maybe med school–maybe), not cars, not furniture, not home remodeling, not vacations). We don’t even have a mortgage (we saved up and used an inheritance to pay cash for our house). The place doesn’t look fancy, and the kitchen could use an overhaul (bad ’70s DIY job by a previous owner), but it’s cozy and comfortable and every stick of furniture inside it is paid for. We also save money like crazy, which means we now don’t have to worry much about money, which I agree can kill a marriage. Really, people, you don’t need a lot of the latest stuff. My giganto-plasma-screen-owning brother made fun of our old elephant-size vacuum-tube TV set when he visited us last spring–but you know: the thing gets a darned good picture! We don’t live miserably, either. We eat well (almost always at home, which saves vast amounts of money) and take nice vacations to wonderful places.

    Because we both worked and were extremely independent before we got married, we still maintain separate bank accounts and kind of split up the household expenses. This seems to work well, because I don’t have to feel that I’ve got to account for, say, splurging on yet another pair of shoes (my fatal weakness) once I’ve got my share of the expenses covered. My husband manages the investments for both of us–he likes to do that sort of thing.

    Good character–honesty, loyalty, considerateness, industriousness, generosity, and, yes, chastity (please keep premarital sex partners to a minimum–and remember that your husband doesn’t want to hear about them, ever)–is another quality that will make you shine as a prospective wife.

    @ Tilikum: I agree re mutual pedestalizing–AFTER you marry. Athol Kay says that one-ititis is a mistake before you get married, but it works wonderfully for married couples. Respecting and adoring each other is really a good idea (it’s why I’m against “settling”).

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Regarding the risk of divorce, it doesn’t matter how nice the woman is. She still has the legal power to destroy your life for any reason or none at all; once the woman feels differently, she can crush her man totally, and the culture will cheer her.

    These are excellent suggestions for a wife, and it is the best an ordinary woman can do in the current legal and cultural climate. However, the man is still taking a stupendous risk in marrying at all, since he is putting himself under the unlimited power of the wife.

    To clarify the comment above:

    Following the advice in the original blog post is the best a girl can do in this social and legal climate.

    I did not mean to imply that frivolous divorce was a good idea!

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    And I forgot to close my bold tag around “not.” My mistake. 🙂

  • Charlotte Allen

    @CrisisEraDynamo:

    “Regarding the risk of divorce, it doesn’t matter how nice the woman is. She still has the legal power to destroy your life for any reason or none at all; once the woman feels differently, she can crush her man totally, and the culture will cheer her.”

    Remember that you, too, have the legal power to destroy your wife’s life for any reason or none at all. You can crush her totally yourself. Just talk a lot about your “stale” marriage, and how your “wife doesn’t understand” you and how you “married too young” and how you two “aren’t growing at the same pace”–and the culture will cheer you on, too! So, if you have any decent sort of job, will plenty of sympathetic females who will be eager to jump in and be Wife #2 or Wife #3. Believe me, I heard all of the above from married men looking for adventure during my single days. Hey–here’s a way to make your ex-wife miserable: Quit paying child support! Sure, she can take you to court, but it will cost her a bundle. Pay late, mess around with getting it reduced, disappear for a while. You can tie her brain into knots. Remember, too, that her SMV declines far more rapidly than yours–doesn’t that cheer you up?

    Look, I know that we have a culture of easy divorce in which unhappy-feeling wives can drag their husbands through hell. I am fully aware, too, of all the faults of my sex, all of them (such as the current sentimental cooing over the murderous Dhzokhar Tsarnaev–cuz he looks just like Bob Dylan!). That simply means that you must, before you marry, assure yourself that your prospective wife isn’t just “nice”–or cute or gorgeous or fun to be with or a great skiing companion–but actually has some character, enough to tide you over for the long haul.

    • @Charlotte

      Thanks for pointing out that women share the risk when they marry in an era (and a culture) that doesn’t attach much importance to the legal contract of marriage. I do believe the laws are misandrist, but the truth is, as you say, either party may destroy the happiness of the other at whim.

      We could warn both sexes of the danger of marriage, but the best result then is “nothing ventured, nothing lost or gained.” I am convinced that if people select a mate very carefully, and give 110% to the marriage, the rewards are great, both for the individuals and for society.

  • The best way that I have seen to manage money in a relationship is to have a common account that each partner pays X dollars into each month. This account is used to pay for all expenses: rent, food, utilities, eating out, mutual vacations, etc. It works well for cohabiting couples, and I presume is also ok when in a marriage where both persons work.

    Basically, it means you live within a budget. Personal stuff like clothes, is on the dime of the individual. Less potential for drama this way.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sassy is extremely masculine in her thinking and in her communication style. That’s why you like it.

    I daresay that we like it because she is self-reflective and usually not gender-combative. Isn’t interested in using-and-abusing guys either.

    She is very aware of the “don’t betas get pissed when you change your preferences” thing for instance.

    As opposed to, I am going to have a bunch of one night stands with whoever I want, then friend-zone a bunch of guys and use them for emotional affection, when I get bored with my current boyfriend I am going to cheat on him with some new hot guy, and I can do this all because I am HAWT and girls have needs too!

    Don’t judge me!

    And then laughing about her friend-zoned guys, or getting angry when they try to get out of it, then turn around and complain that all of her boyfriends are giant jerks.

    Sassy has more character and kindness than that. She may like Alpha guys, but she is not SMPredator.

    Also sorry to talk about you like you’re not here Sassy. Just felt the need to explain why you do get some positive press among the men-folk.

    Now in contrast, look at Plain Jane’s reputation…

    • @ADBG

      Comparing Sassy to Plain Jane is not fair. No regular female commenters here have ONSs and friend-zone guys. You’re railing against women who don’t even read here, something the men do frequently. Is it any wonder women here feel attacked? We have no interest in answering for the behavior of hypergamous sluts!

      Sassy is a terrific and valued commenter. But make no mistake – some of her male fans like her especially because she says she wants alpha and has no use for beta. They claim she’s the only honest woman here. They attempt to use one commenter to prove AWALT.

  • Abbot

    Let him know that you don’t buy into the feminist fantasy projection of men wanting this worklifebalance™ bullshit

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/10015889/Why-men-dont-want-it-all.html

    .

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan

    Sassy understands that she avoids emotional intimacy. She also understands that this is because she grew up with an alpha father. She’s figured that out, but she’s stuck. She can’t move forward, and whenever she tries, she recoils from commitment.

    I also suspect that some of the sex drive stuff is related to this. Sassy is not promiscuous, but many women with her history are. She’s seeking connections, but only physical ones. Yet she is not happy alone.

    This is all very true.

    I don’t mean to talk about Sassy as if she isn’t here – but if she were my daughter that is the course I would insist she pursue. It’s obviously her decision.

    There’s no need to worry about offending me. If I didn’t want people discussing things about me, I wouldn’t bring them up in conversation. I’m looking for outside advice/suggestions. As much as I love the thoughts that go through my own head, I appreciate outside opinions just as much.

  • Emily

    >> “As opposed to, I am going to have a bunch of one night stands with whoever I want, then friend-zone a bunch of guys and use them for emotional affection, when I get bored with my current boyfriend I am going to cheat on him with some new hot guy, and I can do this all because I am HAWT and girls have needs too!”
    —-
    Who here has said that? (Plain Jane doesn’t count!)

  • Escoffier

    Eh, she may be stuck for now but how many people in her situation ever even this far? And at that young an age?

    I predict Sassy is going to be all right.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Charlotte

    Never thought about it that way. I’m guessing men like to complain about their “frigid” wives as well.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan

    Sassy is extremely masculine in her thinking and in her communication style.

    Once again, true. It serves me well sometimes, but it also hinders me.

    @ ADBG

    Also sorry to talk about you like you’re not here Sassy. Just felt the need to explain why you do get some positive press among the men-folk.

    It’s not a problem at all. Don’t worry about it. I appreciate the kind words.

    Strangely enough, I joke with my mom about how “well behaved” I am in this SMP. I’ve mentioned before on here at some point that I would easily be a gold-digger or a mate poacher if I didn’t have scruples. I don’t try to abuse any power I have in the SMP, although I could do a lot of damage. I’ve turned down lots of offers for casual sex. I’ve turned down propositions from men in relationships to sleep with them. I’ve turned down 1-2 lawyers (50+ year old lawyers, mind you) and 1-2 older wealthy business men who have offered to give me a lot of money in exchange for my company. I’ve turned down every offer, but that doesn’t mean that I’m unaware of how potentially beneficial such offers could have been to me. Sometimes I hate my scruples, but I think they help to keep me grounded (not to mention out of trouble).

  • a a definite beta guy

    I wasn’t trying to imply that all the women folk at hus are hypergamous SMPredators. Merely that sassy is in a position to wreak a lot of havoc, and doesn’t.

    That does give her credibility in my eyes.

    Fwiw, I do not think the majority of commenters here actively harbor deep seated hatred of any of the women here. Part of why I am posting here and not jezebel

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Eh, she may be stuck for now but how many people in her situation ever even this far? And at that young an age?

    I predict Sassy is going to be all right.

    I know that I’m finally on the right “thought train”. The next, and biggest, step for me will be to gain some forward momentum. I need to slowly allow myself to experience emotional vulnerability with males. I don’t really know where to start though.

    Does anyone have any solid examples of emotional vulnerability, preferably those of the “baby step” variety? I want to start small and work my way up to tearing my emotional “walls” down. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the praise of Sassy’s honesty is not that AWALT and only she will admit it. I think every reasonable person recognizes that she is an outlier. Rather it’s that–regardless of how rare or how common women like Sassy are–how many who are like that are so honest about it?

    • Susan, the praise of Sassy’s honesty is not that AWALT and only she will admit it.

      Perhaps not from you, but that has been said here. All in the past though.

      Rather it’s that–regardless of how rare or how common women like Sassy are–how many who are like that are so honest about it?

      I agree that Sassy is refreshingly self-aware and honest. She is also extremely unlikely to take offense. All admirable traits.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @CrisisEraDynamo:

    Oh yeah, I forgot “frigid.” That’s a favorite.

  • Sassy6519

    FWIW, I know that I’m a major outlier of the sample of women who comment on this blog. I definitely don’t believe that my views are universally shared or commonplace either, at least not all of them anyway. I just like throwing my perspectives into the mix.

  • Escoffier

    Thinking out loud here, S.

    The next time you get asked out and you want to go, why don’t you play a mental game like it’s 1950. Really “square,” you know?

    In fact–and I am not joking about this (I don’t think)–why don’t you watch a couple of 50s sitcoms about bobby-soxers dating and see what they do. The idea is, learn to hook the guy without getting physical fast. If you can manage that for 3-4 dates, then you can let drop a stray comment about something that is really driving you nuts at work. (I would save major family drama for later.)

  • HereIAm

    For anyone concerned about the possibility of divorce, there is really good research out there on this. John Gottman, a psychologist at the University of Washington, has been able to predict with >90% accuracy who will divorce by looking at how often (a ratio) the following four indicators are present in the interactions between a couple (http://www.gottman.com/49853/Research-FAQs.html):
    Criticism: stating one’s complaints as a defect in one’s partner’s personality, i.e., giving the partner negative trait attributions. Example: “You always talk about yourself. You are so selfish.”
    Contempt: statements that come from a relative position of superiority. Contempt is the greatest predictor of divorce and must be eliminated. Example: “You’re an idiot.”
    Defensiveness: self-protection in the form of righteous indignation or innocent victim-hood. Defensiveness wards off a perceived attack. Example: “It’s not my fault that we’re always late; it’s your fault.”
    Stonewalling: emotional withdrawal from interaction. Example: The listener does not give the speaker the usual nonverbal signals that the listener is “tracking” the speaker.
    Now, I think it is important to note that the absence of these indicators does not predict marital satisfaction or the like – something Gottman in recent years has acknowledged himself. However, if your focus is on divorce, start here.

  • Plain Jain

    “Let him know that you don’t buy into the feminist fantasy projection of men wanting this worklifebalance™ bullshit”

    Meaning what exactly? That they don’t want to work at all? Or that they want to work outside the home and away from their spouse and kids all the time, coming home only when everyone is getting ready for bed?

    Or do you mean they want to be self employed so that they have more control over their time and more freedom.

  • “Avoid: Sarcasm, Eye rolling, Dismissiveness, Patronizing, Mocking or ridiculing”

    Good advice. Re sarcasm, I think I’ve quoted before the advice of the British field marshal Lord Wavell on this topic, but will repeat because it is so wise:

    “Explosions of temper do not necessarily ruin a general’s reputation or influence with his troops; it is almost expected of them (“the privileged irascibility of senior officers,” someone has written), and it is not always resented, sometimes even admired, except by those immediately concerned. ***But sarcasm is always resented and seldom forgiven.*** In the Peninsula the bitter sarcastic tongue of Craufurd, the brilliant but erratic leader of the Light Division, was much more wounding and feared than the more violent outbursts of Picton, a rough, hot-tempered man…He (the general) should never indulge in sarcasm, which is ***being clever at someone else’s expense, and always offends***.

    (emphasis added) Applies to everyone, I think, not only to generals.

    • @David foster

      Interesting quote about sarcasm. I found this:

      The word comes from the Greek σαρκασμός (sarkasmos) which is taken from the word σαρκάζειν meaning “to tear flesh, bite the lip in rage, sneer”.

      …In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.

      … Thomas Carlyle despised it: “Sarcasm I now see to be, in general, the language of the devil; for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it”.

      It’s no wonder sarcasm destroys relationships!

  • Plain Jain

    “Comparing Sassy to Plain Jane is not fair. No regular female commenters here have ONSs and friend-zone guys.”

    Who the hell said I have one night stands?!?!

    Good god that is YOUR culture NOT MINE!

    I was born and raised in one of the most traditional, socially conservative and restricted cultures anyway. On top of that we are extremely specific about looks standards {and lets not forget education, profession, family background, religion, community, eating habits (veg vs non-veg) caste, etc}

    All of the above combined, plus my naturally low libido which I mentioned a few times, and my own particular looks type (which I rarely come across in this part of the world) and the fact that while my family is willing to compromise on some of the above listed requirements, I not only AM NOT, but I have my own personal requirement ticks that I add to them —
    where on earth would find men attractive enough for me to have a one night stand with?!?!?!

  • contifi

    I love your site. Just found it via Instapundit. Wish it was here 15 years ago, it would have saved a lot of heartache & answered a lot of questions.

    • @Contifi

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. Come by again!

  • J

    Never thought about it that way. I’m guessing men like to complain about their “frigid” wives as well.

    This is a surprise to you? You, sir, have obviously never been approached by a married man. This BS is standard operating procedure.

  • Plain Jain

    “Feminism romanticized Sensitive Ponytail Man but that doesn’t play well with most women.”

    Speak for yourself!

  • Plain Jain

    “Just as a guy must apply Game principles to keep his wife interested in him sexually”

    Rolls eyes, slaps someone else’s head.

  • J

    Now, I think it is important to note that the absence of these indicators does not predict marital satisfaction or the like – something Gottman in recent years has acknowledged himself. However, if your focus is on divorce, start here.

    I love John Gottman; he’s amazing. BTW, he claims that the biggest predictor of marital happiness is male agreeness–which is basically the opposite of what the ‘sphere claims.

    Her is Part I of Making Relationships Work by John Gottman:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLXX8wzvT7c

  • J…”(Gottman) claims that the biggest predictor of marital happiness is male agreeness–which is basically the opposite of what the ‘sphere claims.”

    Maybe it was a typo and he meant to say OGREness…which would make it totally consistent!

  • Gin Martini

    The dual account idea is only workable in a couple with roughly equal careers and incomes. Just try doing that when one party outearns the other by a multiplier. Resentment is guaranteed when one half is swimming in cash and controls the lifestyle.

    • The dual account idea is only workable in a couple with roughly equal careers and incomes. Just try doing that when one party outearns the other by a multiplier. Resentment is guaranteed when one half is swimming in cash and controls the lifestyle.

      My husband and I combined all our money in a checking account before we were even married! In for a penny, in for a pound…

      I once wrote a check to contribute to a gift for someone in the office, and my boss nearly had a heart attack when he saw the check. He called me into his office – I thought I was in trouble – and he told me he was very concerned about something he’d discovered about me. I was petrified – what past indiscretions of mine had reached his ears???!!! Then he handed me my check back and asked what I could possibly be thinking having a joint checking account when I wasn’t even married. It wasn’t much of a risk – we were living paycheck to paycheck in those days, writing checks for the minimum due on our credit cards and financing the purchase of a sofa!

  • Plain Jain

    Abbot, I clicked on your link and got my answers.

    That man is an outlier because he is at home with his 4 (four!!!) kids all under the age of 10 ALL DAY LONG, EVERDAY and says he hardly gets 10 consecutive minutes in a row to focus exclusively on his free lance writing.

    Of course he’s going to argue against a work/life balance and in favor of more “work”.

    On the other hand someone who actually leaves their house in the early morning and doesn’t return until evening or later, and their job isn’t a “glamorous career that defines me”, well, they will of course desire more work/life balance.

    And its not a male thing either, as he writes in his very own article;

    “Take bath and bed, which I’ve been doing every night for the best part of 10 years. At 6.15pm, no matter what sort of day I’ve had, Caroline turns over responsibility for the kids to me. By 6.16pm, she’s uncorked a bottle of wine and started watching Gray’s Anatomy. …..

    My wife feels no qualms about handing the children over to me at 6.15pm because she’s already done two school runs, negotiated a timetable of after-school clubs and given them supper. (Remember the PG Tips advert with the chimps? Enough said.)

    Which is another reason I find it difficult to discuss work-life balance with high-flying career women. For the most part, the only reason they think they’re missing out is because they’ve spent so little time with their children. If they knew how difficult it is to persuade their little darlings that crisps aren’t one of the major food groups, they’d thank their lucky stars they never get home from work until 8pm.

    They imagine they’re missing some mythical, golden, just-before-bed-time period in which their children curl up in their laps, smelling of soap and toothpaste, while they read them a Beatrix Potter story. In reality, it’s World War III.

    Even the women who know this are unlikely to admit it because they’re racked with guilt. This is the crucial difference between men and women, in my experience. It’s not that mums enjoy looking after their kids any more than dads. Of course they don’t. Rather, it’s that women don’t get as much pleasure from their careers because they feel guilty about not spending more time with their children. ”

    …. So women don’t want to be orbited by 4 (four!!!) rambunctious kids under 10 all day/every day either.

    [My sister and her husband work from home and have a nanny (relative) come and take the kids OUT 6 hours a day, 4 days a week because they are unable to get anything completed “in the right way” when the kids are there.

    I always laugh when I hear childless singles talk about their future dreams of marriage, family and “home business”, as if working DOUBLE TIME AT THE SAME TIME AT TWO VERY DIFFERENT JOBS YET UNDER THE SAME ROOF, were easy.

    What my sister and her husband discovered, at least with their line of home business, was that you could not give quality time to either the business job or the kids job. Both suffered. So they send the kids out now]

  • Plain Jain

    Escoffier May 1, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Nah, at least I don’t. Everyone’s tastes change as we age. I think the vast majority of guys will admit that the priority we place in looks at age 18-21 is not the same as when we are 28-31. Maturity has a way of helping us sort through and order our priorities in more sensible ways. So, looks never disappear but they recede in importance while other traits rise.
    115 Escoffier May 1, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Wait, I think you are mixing up memes here. What guys DO object to is “price discrimination,” that is, women who have their fun in youth and don’t give them a second look but then try to grab them when the clock ticks. That’s more calculation than maturity, and it really is settling in the absense of maturity.
    ________________________

    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

    BOTH men and women see their youth, especially college, as a time to meet a lot of different people, possibly date or hook up with them, experiment sexually and have fun. Whether or not they actually do all this is another topic, but neither young men nor women see their late teens/early 20s, even mid 20s in a lot of cases, as a time to commit and make wedding plans.

  • Plain Jain

    “you as an individual are in a position to influence just three”

    Abbot, “Where is the post about what women can influence when working as a group?”

    FEMINISM!!!!!!!!!

  • J

    @david

    Yes, ogreness, that must be it. 😉

  • Plain Jain

    “And PJ sings like an angry Bollywood actress.”

    There’s no such thing. Bollywood actresses don’t sing, they lip sink to playback singers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playback_singer

  • Gin Martini

    I have no idea what you’re taking about. I suppose if such a person wanted to truly disappear, they wouldn’t drop a few hundred hints. Some people are really bad at that.

    • I have no idea what you’re taking about. I suppose if such a person wanted to truly disappear, they wouldn’t drop a few hundred hints. Some people are really bad at that.

      Well I still need you to tell me when PJ is around. I’m really, really slow on the uptake.

  • SayWhaat

    Last night I was thinking “I like this Gin Martini character.” Later I thought, “I wonder where OTC has gone.” Then, Bingo!

    I do think it’s pretty funny that SayWhaat thought you were PJ

    HAHA! And here I was wondering why no one had pointed out that PJ had gone schizo!

  • Abbot

    FEMINISM!!!!!!!!!

    No, whats being called for is a group of women that can actually do something that motivates men to be more accommodating and loving.

  • Anacaona

    It wasn’t much of a risk – we were living paycheck to paycheck in those days, writing checks for the minimum due on our credit cards and financing the purchase of a sofa!

    I don’t know about the others but I find so nice the idea of marrying poor and enduring times of ‘restrictiveness’ building up and then enjoying plenty. Like growing up a tree from the small to the big. I surely hope our asses grow from here on so I might just be hoping things will improve together :p

    Well I still need you to tell me when PJ is around. I’m really, really slow on the uptake.
    Really? I usually know when PJ is around but since there is a lot of ‘free food for trolls at HUS’ lately, I keep it to myself. :/

    • I don’t know about the others but I find so nice the idea of marrying poor and enduring times of ‘restrictiveness’ building up and then enjoying plenty.

      Yes, it is nice to build something real together. Not just financially, but making the house nice, planting a garden, painting the nursery, etc. I think we both found that process very satisfying. We always appreciate things more if we work for them or create them ourselves.

  • Plain Jain

    Charlotte Allen, ok with those 2 examples I get it now. Both are special occasion things like when something non-routine goes on at work and he/she (our hypothetical partner) was the one to “get ‘er done” and when a special dinner to celebrate something was made by one of us, so the other one complimented and thank us and then did the dishes.

    But in the day to day routine of life lived with a partner – the daily grind of chores, clean up, laundry and meal prep that we BOTH do, I’m not convinced the happiest couples are going around saying “thankyou” all the time for every routine thing.

    Gin Martini,
    “In a marriage, you would eat dinner together, and share expenses – after all, the legal definition of marriage is that your money is his. Thus, when they go to work, they are also benefiting you, by contributing to your shared assets.

    You obviously wouldn’t praise a glorified a FWB, living in their own apartment for going to work, or MAKING HIS OWN DINNER FOR HIMSELF. But then you’re just fuckbuddies that don’t have a relationship, let alone a marriage. Your both strong and independent operators, who can leave at a moment’s notice, not an interdependent couple.”
    ____

    Hold on, what’s this “making his own dinner for himself” business?

    Didn’t you just argue in favor of coupledom and shared living?

    First you talk about FwBs who live separately and thus don’t thank each other and now you want me to thank a man I’m living with AS A COUPLE for making dinner for himself!?!?!? Where is MY dinner?

    If he gets a “thankyou” its not going to be for making food exclusively for himself and leaving me hungry!

    That makes no sense whatsoever.

    “Thankyou Honey for feeding yourself and completely leaving me out. Wow! I’m so lucky to have a man like you! What a man, what a man, what a mighty good man! What a might good man!”

    “Of course PJ knows this. She never asks a question she doesn’t know the answer to. Be prepared for the response.”

    Uh…. nope. I actually never knew there were husbands and live in boyfriends out there who made dinner only for themselves yet expected to be “thanked” for it.

    And I wish I hadn’t been clued in. Ignorance was bliss!

  • gin martini

    Right. They obviously wouldn’t. Reading comprehension. English much?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Some men view me today as unfriendly to the male POV. What they really object to is that I am unfriendly to the Dark Triad POV, whether held by males or females.”

    I think this one way men are different than woman.

    We don’t forgive and we don’t forget.
    We will just put painful things away until we decide its done and we’re out.

    (Also in relationships. As an example, my wife has lied to me once–> I love her less than I did before even years later. Whereas women tend to be more fickle (returning to abusive husband).

    So, once you gain a mans loyalty it is really difficult to lose until you lose it. Probably not much in the way of warning.

    I suspect initially your feminist viewpoint was enough to push some men away permanently regardless of any growth you undertook.

    “I think that was cooking dinner and I stand by it, provided the woman is attracted enough to be at your apartment for dinner in the first place. A guy cooking dinner can shorten the time to sex by at least 2-4 dates, IMO. ”

    Or better yet, attempt to cook dinner, fail horribly and end up just drinking wine with a salad.

    Worked for me.

    • Or better yet, attempt to cook dinner, fail horribly and end up just drinking wine with a salad.

      Worked for me.

      Haha! I’ve served a few clunkers in my time. When all else fails, break out the pasta. When it comes to guys and cooking, it’s the thought that counts. At least for me, watching a guy putter in the kitchen is just really sexy. What he produces is not all that important.

      My husband has this crazy grill called the Big Green Egg. He’s obsessed with it. He broke it out for the season on Easter with butterflied leg of lamb. It’s fantastic, he cooks about 5 nights a week in the warm months. I think grilling raises his testosterone!

  • Plain Jain

    gin martini,

    “Right. They obviously wouldn’t. Reading comprehension.
    English much?”

    Not much. 😉

    But seriously, you implied that within the context of a coupled living arrangement, there’s a case for thanking a partner for making dinner only for him or herself.

    Please read…

    “In a marriage, you would eat dinner together, and share expenses – after all, the legal definition of marriage is that your money is his. Thus, when they go to work, they are also benefiting you, by contributing to your shared assets.
    You obviously wouldn’t praise a glorified a FWB, living in their own apartment for going to work, or MAKING HIS OWN DINNER FOR HIMSELF.”

    … so you are implying that you WOULD thank a partner for the above if the relationship was not FwB living in their own apartment, but instead married and/or living together, right?

    Marellus to PJ, “Thankyou my little brown marauder mouse for doing your own laundry”.

    It doesn’t make sense.

    Now IF (and that’s a big if) I did HIS laundry (for the first and last time) there is a case for a “thankyou”. But that is not the example you gave. Your example was “MAKING HIS OWN DINNER FOR HIMSELF”

    Moreover, do married couples actually thank each other for doing the every day routine chores that adults do, and that are, in the context of sharing a home, shared by each other?

    Is there an implication here that the woman is expected to cook, not only for herself but for her partner as well, but if they man cooks just for himself (!!!) he is to be “thanked”!?!?!?

  • Plain Jain

    You know you love me Susan.

    😉

    (and you know I’m right)

  • mr. wavevector

    I think relationships do work well when each person wears blinders of a sort. For example, when I look at my husband, who is 58, I see him at 28.

    Those are your “love goggles”. I have some too.

    I can take them off and objectively rate my wife on the HB scale, but what’s the point? Back on they go.

    And as I tease my wife, we may be getting wrinklier, but we can’t see so well close up anymore, so it all works out!

  • Fred17

    I can’t understand most of this, having been married for 59 years. Cohabitation? Divorce? A shame that a real commitment in God’s eyes seems too hard to make anymore. And bailing out when the going gets a little tough is NOT impressive. You have to work at marriage but ,believe me, the rewards are enormous. Not to mention you’ve kept your promise to God. ( I suppose mentioning God is going to get criticism, but too bad).

    • @Fred17

      59 years, wow! Congratulations!

      ( I suppose mentioning God is going to get criticism, but too bad).

      Not at all, we do religion around here quite comfortably.

  • Gin Martini

    You’re off your meds again.

    You’d thank your spouse for dinner, because, obviously, married people eat together, rathan than two people prepare two separate meals. You’d thank them for working, because, obviously, you share your assets which are legally joined. You’d thank them for mowing the lawn or doing the laundry, because, obviously, it’s inefficient and stupid for each person to do half of the laundry or mow half the lawn.

    But some things aren’t obvious these days, I guess.

    People who are living separate independent lives, maintaining separate houses and accounts, keeping their lovers at a safe emotional distance wouldn’t know jack shit about the concept of interfuckingdependence.

    Cheers! This gin and tonic is excellent. Sorry it’s not a martini.

    • interfuckingdependence.

      Cheers! This gin and tonic is excellent. Sorry it’s not a martini.

      Great new word!

      For me the key to a great G&T is using a half lime for each drink. We haven’t had any yet – time to get in some Schweppes tonic!

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Plain Jain:

    “But in the day to day routine of life lived with a partner – the daily grind of chores, clean up, laundry and meal prep that we BOTH do, I’m not convinced the happiest couples are going around saying “thankyou” all the time for every routine thing.”

    It never hurts to say “Thank you,” and a grateful word can make the daily grind less of a grind. People love to feel appreciated. Even for little routine things.

  • Plain Jain

    “I suppose mentioning God is going to get criticism, but too bad”

    Not from me. I’m also of the opinion that divorce happens so frequently in today’s American culture because it has no higher purpose. The couple makes it all about them. Individually each partner is making it all about him and all about her, and collectively they are making it all about them as a couple. But outside of that, there’s no higher purpose and that is why when even 1 of the individuals becomes un-haaaaaaaaaappppy (shout out to Dullcock or INTJ, both of whom we know is lurking here), then its divorce time. OR, when the couple “falls out of love with each other”, then its divorce time, which is JUST AS BAD in my book.

    Your kids don’t know that you’ve “fallen out of love with each other” so fake it on their behalf.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “When all else fails, break out the pasta. ”

    Self face palm.
    I was young and new at the living without a food supply thing. (I think I had been living and needing to cook my own food for approximately 2.5 weeks when I met my wife.)

    I had to google how to turn the stove top on when I first got there. (I used the microwave for the first week actually.)

    I like grilling as well now. I think there is something about a rack of meat and open flame that is particularly primal and goes way back to caveman times. Ditto the wife’s vegetable contribution.

    • @Lokland

      I like grilling as well now. I think there is something about a rack of meat and open flame that is particularly primal and goes way back to caveman times. Ditto the wife’s vegetable contribution.

      One of my favorite things to grill is Korean BBQ. If your wife plans meals like that you must eat really well. I love Korean food!

  • Plain Jain

    “It never hurts to say “Thank you,” and a grateful word can make the daily grind less of a grind. People love to feel appreciated. Even for little routine things.”

    In general I agree but in both your original and in Gin Martini’s comments, there was an implication that doing dishes (you) and cooking dinner (Gin Martini) was something that’s routine for the woman but out of the ordinary and thus in need of “thanks” for the man.

  • Plain Jain

    Fred17 May

    “I can’t understand most of this, having been married for 59 years. ”

    Wow and congrats!

    ” ( I suppose mentioning God is going to get criticism, but too bad).”

    Not from me. I’m of the impression that the reason there is so much divorce these days in this society is because marriage lacks a higher purpose than just the “haaaaaaaapiness” of the couple.

    Once one of the pair becomes unhaaaaaapy, or “we both just fall out of love with each other” happen – then divorce!

    “Jamie and Jenny, your mommy and a I love each other but we’re not ‘in love’ with each other anymore” is pure bullshit.

    Kids, being the logical creatures they are ask, “what’s the difference?” because there is none. If you “love” someone, then you can also be “in love” with them. And your kids haven’t noticed a change so you might as well just fake it for their sakes.

  • Charlotte Allen

    Plain Jain:

    In general I agree but in both your original and in Gin Martini’s comments, there was an implication that doing dishes (you) and cooking dinner (Gin Martini) was something that’s routine for the woman but out of the ordinary and thus in need of “thanks” for the man.

    Sorry, but I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say here. I’m doing the dishes while Gin Martini cooks dinner? I don’t even know Gin Martini, so why would I be doing his dishes?

  • Plain Jain

    Sorry. No. I responded to your comment then hours later Gin Martini posted a related comment. In his he gave the example of a guy making dinner FOR HIMSELF and the implication is that some gratitude was in order.

    What!?!?

    Gratitude and I don’t even get to eat!?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Lok

    I like grilling as well now. I think there is something about a rack of meat and open flame that is particularly primal and goes way back to caveman times.

    Hell yes. Gotta love the grilling. Gotta say, I love cooking, period. Even like baking, though I do my best not to admit that too much.

  • doomwolf

    Personally, I’d rather bake. With a couple of exceptions, I find most of my recipes relaxing to prepare, I can be busy but also think about stuff at the same time. Also, people tend to love cakes and cookies, and if you have a good signature recipe you can use it to bribe people into doing things for you. YMMV

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Quite true, indeed, but that effect tends to be amplified when the cookies are delivered by the GF, for she is dripping in feminine presence and nurturing goodness and makes the cookies taste better.

    Something relevant to this blog, from Ricky Raw:
    http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-the-middle-class-alpha-male-part-2-2/

    It’s for these reasons I specifically called my self-improvement series The Renaissance Man series and not The Alpha Male series. The choice of terms was very deliberate and the two concepts are not interchangeable. Because I think telling the average middle class man that alphadom is attainable or even desirable while remaining in middle class status is the biggest crock of shit going on today. The best thing for a middle-class man to be in today’s society is not a true, pure alpha but a blend of the best aspects of an alpha male and the best aspects of a beta male, with the trappings of neither. A Renaissance Man.

    Emphasis Not Mine

    Genghis Khan=Alpha
    Roissy=Does Slam Poetry

    • @ADBG

      That’s a great Ricky Raw post – I had no idea we were on the same wavelength!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also, to Sassy, re: settling and preferences changing

    Sometimes it isn’t such a big deal.

    I can name most of the world’s nations and can describe in decent depth the Tuareg rebellion going on in Mali right now, along with how our efforts to beef up the Chadian military have paid off after rebels nearly seized the Chadian capital of N’Djamena a few years ago.

    Oh god, and when it looked like Sudan and Chad might go to war, how frustrating THAT was. So much less complicated now that South Sudan is split and Qaddafi is out, at least for now…though we have to deal with all those dictatorships.

    Gives me hope that maybe we can keep Central Africa stable. Maybe. Some Rwandan backed rebels seized Goma a few months ago, IIRC, I haven’t followed that much. I also don’t know if Kenya is still running their COIN ops in Somalia against Al-Shabaab.

    Anyways, my girlfriend barely knows the difference between North Korea and South Korea. She is probably not the girl I imagined getting with back in high school.

    Similarly, she initially did not want to date a guy who is not able to sing. And I am sure you can guess that my singing abilities are about on par with my Mandarin.

    I’ll quickly add that your situation is a completely different one than mine. But some changed preferences, aren’t always bad.

  • HereIAm

    @J

    I think everyone who is interested in relating to another human being could benefit from reading the work/research of Gottman. However, I actually think the work of David Schnarch is equally important if not more so. I think he has a much deeper understanding of things, especially how to deal with difficult conflicts and issues of desire.

  • TexasDude

    My wife and I are both 42. We got married when were 23. My wife just graduated college and I was close to graduating. We dated 7 years before that. We were high school sweethearts.

    How did we stay together soo long when, supposedly, our youth was our greatest threat as a couple?

    Work and friendship. Not drudgery, but work on the relationship and true friendship that transcended our lust. Things like flowers, cards, hand written notes, stolen kisses, quick hugs, support, etc. Just work and having the ability to relax together and even doing things that one is more interested in than the other.

    I don’t know if want to call me an alpha or a beta. I believe I am both with a strong lean on the alpha side.

    In high school, I was captain of the football team and was a power lifter. My wife was in theater. She came to all my games and cut press clippings that she kept in a book she was making for me. I went to her theater shows and even was convinced to try out for a UIL one-act-play with her. I got the part and we “starred” on stage together. My high school friends, mostly football players, partied a lot. I did some, but mostly went out with my future wife. Throughout all the high school years, I wrote her poems, created mix-tapes (yeah, it was the cassette times), gave her flowers, would knock on her bedroom window after I got off working at a local BBQ joint, take her to pick nicks, and do what couples do.

    We both went to college. Same town, different schools. She blossomed in college. She joined a sorority. I fully supported her even when she went to mixers. Was I jealous of the mixers? Yep, but I risked losing her in my ultimate goal of keeping her.

    We got married when she graduated. I was still in, but didn’t have much more to go. She went on to get her masters and I played military (Navy Reserves) while starting a small business. She became a stay-at-home mom and we had one child. My business went belly up not long after 9-11. We had a house, some nice furniture, but no savings. I ended up working at a gas station at night while my wife worked part-time during the day. We traded child care with each other as we passed each other at home. Bummer, but we still told he other I love as much as we could.

    We recovered.

    Today I am a police officer, over 9 years. Used to be on the SWAT team till I tore an Achilles tendon. When I decided to go into law enforcement, my wife gave her full support behind me knowing full well that the pay would be worse along with bad hours. We now have 4 children with three of the being under 7 years of age. My wife has been a stay-at-home mom since we have financially recovered. I am not on nights anymore and due to the schedule, I get to take and pick up the kids from school at least twice a week. We could be making a lot more money if she went back to work. However, we both feel that one of us should be home. She wanted to stay at home. I have never pressured her to go back to work even during the times that we needed a full time professional paycheck.

    Again, how have we survived as couple? All throughout our relationship, we both have worked on it and we both are friends with each other. It isn’t always with material things, sometimes it just a backrub or foot massage (yes I give them) or just a simple kiss or, lately, taking the kids to the park while she rests or gets on the internet or whatever alone.

    We are not perfect. We argue. Sometimes we get on each other’s nerves. Sometimes we have a difference of opinion. However, we do support each other in our various endeavors.

    Oh, by the way, we still have all those love cards and poems. I even found a mix tape the other day tucked away in a box.

    • @Texas Dude

      That is one of the loveliest testaments to love and marriage I’ve ever read. It moved me a great deal, and I very much appreciate your sharing it with us.

  • PJ,

    “And PJ sings like an angry Bollywood actress.”

    There’s no such thing. Bollywood actresses don’t sing, they lip sink to playback singers.

    Ummm, my darlinks, so what you actually convey … is muted by a sound engineer, and dubbed over with something else … you must fire that sound engineer, you hear me ! … just look how much trouble you’re getting into.

    Marellus to PJ, “Thankyou my little brown marauder mouse for doing your own laundry”.

    It doesn’t make sense.

    It does make sense, if you *really* got turned into a little brown marauder mouse, after yet another bugger-up in the kitchen …

    Now IF (and that’s a big if) I did HIS laundry (for the first and last time) there is a case for a “thankyou”.

    You’d NEVER do my laundry. And do you know why ?

    1) I can operate a twintub washing machine. It’s mankind’s greatest invention; it can wreck a guy’s underwear into that blissful condition, where the underwear is actually comfortable to wear … appearances be damned.

    2) And if you take charge of my laundry, my underwear is just gonna disappear. I’m sure of it. And in my closet I’ll find some brand spanking new underwear, which eerily feels like it’s a size too small, and devious hints about me dieting.

    Not gonna happen.

    I’d rather endure a few bites from your bugger-ups in the kitchen.

  • Escoffier

    the big green egg is the best grill there is

    • the big green egg is the best grill there is

      Ha, I was curious to see if you’d know it. I gave it to him for his 50th birthday, and honestly, he loves that thing!

  • Charlotte Allen

    Plain Jain:

    Moreover, do married couples actually thank each other for doing the every day routine chores that adults do, and that are, in the context of sharing a home, shared by each other?

    We do. We’re grateful to have each other in our lives.

    • @Charlotte, @Plain Jain

      Moreover, do married couples actually thank each other for doing the every day routine chores that adults do, and that are, in the context of sharing a home, shared by each other?

      We do. We’re grateful to have each other in our lives.

      We do too. At the end of every meal, my husband thanks me for having made it. Of course it’s the least I can do, and thanks are not necessary. But he never fails to offer appreciation. And he also cleans the kitchen, sending me upstairs to read.

      Lots of thank yous will create an entirely different relationship dynamic than assuming no thanks are necessary.

  • Liz

    @Sassy

    I can understand logically what my problem is, as well as understand my motivating factors, but I don’t really know how to allow myself to be more emotionally vulnerable. When I do think about it, I feel anxious and nauseated. The feeling has its root in fear and the desire for self-protection.

    It’s probably also why I have difficulty with certain aspects of femininity. I view such vulnerability as weak, and I can barely bring myself to act in such manners. I’ve hardened myself to the point that I’m barely able to feel vulnerability, not to mention allow myself to be vulnerable.

    Yeah, I hate that vulnerability thing in particular. A sharp word or criticism throws me into a tizzy. I just turned 50, goddammit, and while resilient in some ways, I seem to have serious self-esteem issues and am prone to emotional meltdowns both public and private. I don’t just cry – I choke up, hyperventilate, and get a migraine headache. This makes it almost impossible to address what bothers me, or god forbid actually stand up for myself. (I’m afraid I’d get violent if I did.)

    Instead I go off and lick my wounds while people wonder why I get so upset. I don’t know and it would probably take hypnosis or something to find out. It can happen with anyone but those who are close to me cause the most pain, obviously, and I have probably walled myself off in ways large and small. It’s causing a lot of grief right now in a relationship which should be a great one. Correction, which used to be a great one.

    Anyway I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but your experience seemed familiar. Someone in these comments said you have a “masculine” way of thinking, and who knows what that means. I’ve worked hard to integrate the stronger and softer parts of myself, and often don’t really think of myself in gender terms. Maybe what’s at work sometimes is not a female/male duality, but rather a child/adult conflict. We want to feel safe with another person, and are deeply hurt when that safety isn’t there.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    May I ask the source for this claim? It doesn’t really follow from the data, marriage research or anecdotal evidence I’m aware of.

    You really haven’t heard of this age old trope, and think it has no bearing? Seriously, just google “why do men try to change women” and most of the hits will be the opposite along the lines of “women trying to change men”. While hard research would be tough to come by, I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence behind this.

    Hell, the lure of the badboy/loner/brooder is a prime example of what I’m talking about, and you’ve even alluded to this. I don’t understand how you could refute.

    • @Jason

      Hell, the lure of the badboy/loner/brooder is a prime example of what I’m talking about, and you’ve even alluded to this. I don’t understand how you could refute.

      Maybe I’m confused about what you mean by change. I thought you meant changes like “be more ambitious” or “be funnier at parties.” Certainly the old trope of the wife nagging is about wanting the man to change, but that’s generally portrayed as a situation where the man has let himself go, become lazy, etc. over time. “Take out the trash,” that kind of thing.

      I don’t think women’s attraction to badboys is quite the same. That is more of a fantasy about rescue, allowing him to experience a great love. Of course, these men do not “open up emotionally” – it’s not something they’re capable of doing.

      Some women get involved with players hoping they’ll change, obviously – that is the fantasy of taming an alpha. That’s a fool’s errand, and the few who manage to marry these men often realize very soon how naive they were when the infidelity starts.

      Since alpha players and bad boys represent a small part of the population, this female strategy, while real, is not common, IMO.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @ Just Saying:

    You’ve made it amply clear that YOU are not a “potential husband”!

    Here are some generalizations about divorce law (I am not giving legal advice, of course):

    The principles of community property apply in most states. That means that anything earned or bought with earnings during the marriage is the property of both spouses. They’re not “his” assets; they’re marital assets. But if your rich uncle hands over his millions to you or leaves them to you in his will, whether before or after you got married, they’re all yours. Anything you earned or bought with earnings before you got married is all yours, too. So–the split in half applies only to marital assets.

    The idea is that marriage is a partnership to which both parties contribute, whether in money, time, being a gorgeous trophy wife, or whatever. If your wife spends her days shopping with your credit cards and lunching with her gal-pals on your dime, you probably married her because she was cute, bewitching, ultra-cool, impressive to your friends, or fun to be with. So you got what you paid for. All the bad traits that spouses display after they get married are already there before they get married. People don’t change.

    • @Charlotte

      You’ve made it amply clear that YOU are not a “potential husband”!

      He sure has! I get the sense that some male commenters believe when I write posts like this to women that I’m actually trying to convince them to marry, or trying to swindle them somehow. They seem very eager to distance themselves from the idea of ever committing to any woman, and often will share that they’re living the good life of ONSs and soft harems.

      To which I say: Do women a favor and never change your mind! You’re terrible relationship material! Please continue to shout your intentions loud and clear and never darken the door of a chapel with an intention to wed!

      These men of highly unrestricted sociosexuality generally pair with like-minded women, so they’re irrelevant to any discussion of marriage.

      All the bad traits that spouses display after they get married are already there before they get married. People don’t change.

      Indeed!

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Susan:

    Korean BBQ is one of my faves, too. All ethnic food is either grilled or cooked in a pot placed over an open fire. That’s why people love it.

  • angelguy

    Susan:
    I thought this was a great article. Nice that there is something here focused on maintaining a good connection with one’s “man”.

    Lately, I have seen too many of these online iphone type relationships occuring lately. Maybe I am just old, but that doesn’t strike me as anything real.

    While most of the female posters appear to be wanting a close relationship with someone in person. I wonder about the others that seem to think, this type of online relationship is “ok.” I know I couldn’t do it.

    And before anyone says this to me, an online relationship is not a real relationship in my book. FB,Twitter, Skype, myspace doesn’t cut it.

  • angelguy

    I mostly bring this up because the title of the article is “the care and keeping of Potential Husbands.” Yet, I find social interaction is much different than it was 10 or 15 years ago.

  • Anacaona

    We do too. At the end of every meal, my husband thanks me for having made it. Of course it’s the least I can do, and thanks are not necessary. But he never fails to offer appreciation.
    We do too. For everything I hand him a cup of coffee or he moans the lawn and we thank each other and we also say sorry when we do something that upsets the other one. I hope we are in the right track. 😀

    And before anyone says this to me, an online relationship is not a real relationship in my book. FB,Twitter, Skype, myspace doesn’t cut it.
    You are wrong that is how my hubby and I met. A real relationship only needs real people taking it seriously and giving it their 130%. Some people see each other every day and still lack any reality to their relationship, YMMV.

  • Aimee

    I don’t understand women who expect to be emotionally taken care of all the time, yet who don’t consider that their man might have feelings that also need to be cared for. What kind of “partner” demands something from the other that they aren’t willing to give? That’s not a partnership, that’s expecting to be coddled like a child. It’s ridiculously unfair, especially if you insist that you should be equal in all other things, yet expect him to bear the entire burden of emotional health for the two of you and won’t help share it.

    • @Aimee

      It’s ridiculously unfair, especially if you insist that you should be equal in all other things, yet expect him to bear the entire burden of emotional health for the two of you and won’t help share it.

      Exactly! We women say we’re strong, but we also see emotional support as something we’re entitled to from our partner. At the same time, we believe a strong man shouldn’t need emotional support. It’s a fairness issue.

      Women have embraced the changes of the Women’s Movement, but we still tend to expect chivalrous behavior as well. That’s not fair. Feminism killed chivalry. That is why I advise women to share the expenses in a relationship, and I advise men not to buy women drinks. Expecting men to shell out for dates when we’re earning more than they are is ridiculous!

  • HanSolo

    Here’s Lisa Simpson’s attempt to tame the badboy. Ha ha!

    http://www.wtsof.com/watch/S8E7-lisa-s-date-with-density

  • Nate Whilk

    Benton April 30, 2013 at 1:43 pm wrote:
    “The perfect example of this is Hanna Rosin, who sees all of these consequences and yet has no sympathy for young men. Even her son calls her a bully!
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/hanna-rosin-talks-about-a_n_1837066.html

    Thanks for linking that. It’s very revealing. The interviewer summarizes: ‘Hanna Rosin wants you to know that her 9-year-old son, Jacob, questions the title of her book, too. “He sends me notes that say ‘only bullies write books called “The End of Men,”‘” Rosin says, ruefully. She’s explained to him that she didn’t actually choose that title — it was coined by an editor at The Atlantic when Rosin wrote a cover story two years ago about how women are gaining on men in almost everything. But while she tried to think of an alternative when it came time to turn the idea into a book, nothing else seemed to sum up this moment of transition nearly as well. ‘

    She dodges responsibility for the title, but just couldn’t think of anything better. Isn’t this “passive-aggressive” to a T?

  • angelguy

    “Some people see each other every day and still lack any reality to their relationship, YMMV.”

    @Anacaona

    If you can’t have reality with someone you see each other day, something is wrong. You shouldn’t be in a relationship with them.
    Some people may be married and this has already happened with them.

    I just think that one shouldn’t need a filter to face people.
    At least, you can’t avoid someone face to face. Communication online is much different than offline.

  • Aimee

    I really don’t get the “I’m EQUAL but you still have to be the provider and the big strong man for me!” mindset. Maybe it’s because I wasn’t raised at all to be traditionally feminine…my parents raised myself and my siblings kind of gender-neutral (i.e. household duties were divvied up by ability not gender, and no one was EVER told that they should or should not be/do something because of gender.) I’ve always been kind of stoic in my emotional behavior; I have strong feelings about things, but I don’t often show them, and I’ve always been the strong crying shoulder for everyone I know. My boyfriend and I have been together less than 6 months, but he feels perfectly comfortable telling me about his insecurities and issues, and since that’s the template I’ve had throughout my life of how people act around me, I EXPECT him to do so and don’t at all find it unmanly. I think a lot of the reason that women get this attitude is that they’ve never had to be the strong one, they’ve always been taken care of. They simply do not grasp what it is like to have to BE strong for someone, just take it for granted that their role is to be coddled, so there’s no scope for empathy. How can you understand someone’s feelings in a situation when you’ve never even realized that that situation is a thing? I was never allowed to use my gender as an excuse for anything, and was expected to be as much of a “man” about things as my brothers, who were also expected to be “womanly” in things like caring for small children, etc. I expect equality in a relationship; so does my boyfriend, which is fortunate for me as I didn’t have to go through a song and dance about it. We pay for our individual selves when we go out, neither of us feels bound to “be the woman” or “be the man,” except when we’re joking around. It’s working out very nicely thus far because neither of us demands anything we don’t give.

    • They simply do not grasp what it is like to have to BE strong for someone, just take it for granted that their role is to be coddled, so there’s no scope for empathy.

      This is an interesting point. Empathy is definitely decreasing – this may explain why in part.

  • angelguy

    “How can you understand someone’s feelings in a situation when you’ve never even realized that that situation is a thing? I was never allowed to use my gender as an excuse for anything, and was expected to be as much of a “man” about things as my brothers, who were also expected to be “womanly” in things like caring for small children, etc. I expect equality in a relationship; so does my boyfriend, which is fortunate for me as I didn’t have to go through a song and dance about it. We pay for our individual selves when we go out, neither of us feels bound to “be the woman” or “be the man,” except when we’re joking around. It’s working out very nicely thus far because neither of us demands anything we don’t give.”

    Bravo! I love this post.
    Best thing I read today.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Susan:

    Women have embraced the changes of the Women’s Movement, but we still tend to expect chivalrous behavior as well. That’s not fair. Feminism killed chivalry. That is why I advise women to share the expenses in a relationship, and I advise men not to buy women drinks. Expecting men to shell out for dates when we’re earning more than they are is ridiculous!

    I agree with the gist of what you’re getting at, except about chivalry. While I don’t believe that men should fawn over women beta-ishly, especially over women who have them firmly in the friend zone, I’m flattered by such gestures as a man’s opening a door for me or my husband’s ordering for me in a restaurant or walking on the outside on a sidewalk. It’s a subtle and gracious way for him to assert his masculinity (which is why feminists go ballistic over such things) while at the same time honoring la difference of my being female. And my gracious acceptance of those gestures signals to the men who perform them that I haven’t bought into confrontational feminist shrewdom.

    As for dates, I think they’re just fine. Asking a woman out and picking up the tab is another way for them to assert their masculinity–and also their self-assurance (they set up the evening and follow through). It’s also kind of unromantic for a female to be asked out on a date and then be expected to open up her wallet to pony up her half.

    That said, a man should NEVER treat a woman to anything he can’t afford, and should never give her the idea that she is supposed to expect expensive dates. There are plenty of cheap ways to have fun: burgers and beer, a movie, a picnic, a hike in the hills. Indeed cheap dates (unless you’re as rich as Croesus and thus will merely be cheap) are a good way to find out if your woman is a spoiled princess or is actually up for the long haul, during which there could well be some lean times.

    Nonetheless, the duty for a woman to reciprocate is absolute. There are numerous ways to do this graciously: take him out yourself for a “my treat” dinner, have him over for steaks and fine wine. If she’s earning more than he is, she can buy expensive tickets to concerts and plays, give him magnums of champagne and fancy cufflinks for his birthday, etc.

    • @Charlotte

      You and I are on the same page here, I think.

      I’m flattered by such gestures as a man’s opening a door for me or my husband’s ordering for me in a restaurant or walking on the outside on a sidewalk. It’s a subtle and gracious way for him to assert his masculinity (which is why feminists go ballistic over such things) while at the same time honoring la difference of my being female.

      I agree, and when these gestures are given willingly and generously, they are most welcome. What I object to is female entitlement that expects these things. So many women will trumpet their career success and at the same time immediately disqualify a guy who isn’t spending big money on them.

      Nonetheless, the duty for a woman to reciprocate is absolute.

      Agreed. I have written posts about this as well. For the record, I think it works best when the man pays for the first date. There’s nothing wrong with sharing the bill, but I prefer taking turns to divvying up a check. That said, if the woman wants to see the man again, she should take responsibility for the next date in some way. She should at least offer – there are quite a few men who really do prefer to pay, in which case women should express real appreciation.

      Re the buying of drinks, I know first-hand via my focus groups that perfectly lovely young women can act in a very entitled manner when at bars, accepting drinks with no intention of even conversing with a guy. I advise women that when they accept a drink from someone, he has just “bought” a 10 minute audition with them. That is only polite. If they don’t wish to talk with him at all, they should politely decline the drink.

      Sometimes guys send drinks over, so the woman has no overt obligation, but even then the nice thing to do is offer thanks and some conversation.

  • HanSolo

    @Charlotte

    When is your book coming out? I shared your article, The New Dating Game, with some of my friends and they really enjoyed reading it, as did I.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/new-dating-game?page=3

  • Anacaona

    I just think that one shouldn’t need a filter to face people.
    At least, you can’t avoid someone face to face. Communication online is much different than offline.

    The thing is you see online as a barrier to intimacy, is not, is an aid if you choose to see it as one. Specially for people that is too busy, too far away, too shy to meet in person at the beginning. Think of how people in the past had epistolary romances and sent each other letter to keep the human connection. Now is instant and electronic. Nothing else and nothing more, YMMV.

  • angelguy

    “Specially for people that is too busy, too far away, too shy to meet in person at the beginning. Think of how people in the past had epistolary romances and sent each other letter to keep the human connection. Now is instant and electronic.”

    @Anacaona

    I think anyone that says they are too busy and too shy to meet someone and get to know them in person in the beginning, has issues. It sends a red Flag to me, and is not someone I would like to get to know. What is says to me is that they are hiding who they are. It is one step above “Webcam girl”.

    I think online communication is only good if you already have a relationship going and there is trust there. But for meeting and getting to know someone in the beginning, it feels very “Victorian” to me.
    This is 2013, not 1813.

    Maybe your circumstance is different, but that is how I fee.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Online communication and your comfort with it are going to depend on what you are used to and what experiences you have with it.

    Practically everyone I knew in high school or college was a shit-head, so I spent a lot of time forging relationships online, especially through online MMORPGs.

    I do not require a face-to-face or even an over-the-phone conversation to discuss something with someone. Wasn’t my experience, I can communicate in different ways. In a lot of ways, I feel closer to some of my online friends than I do my Real-Life friends.

    Actually, I cannot handle phone conversations. At all. I despise phone calls.

    If it’s not your communication style, it’s not your communication style. Oh well. Some of us can make that work for us.

  • Anacaona

    I think anyone that says they are too busy and too shy to meet someone and get to know them in person in the beginning, has issues. It sends a red Flag to me, and is not someone I would like to get to know. What is says to me is that they are hiding who they are. It is one step above “Webcam girl”

    Being shy is not a crime you know? The world is full of people that need some level of comfort before meeting in person and they are not ‘webcam people”

    I think online communication is only good if you already have a relationship going and there is trust there. But for meeting and getting to know someone in the beginning, it feels very “Victorian” to me.
    This is 2013, not 1813.

    Only that people change slower than technology does, being shy has been with us longer than victorian times and until someone invents ‘anti-shyness pills” we are probably going to keep it around for a while.

    Maybe your circumstance is different, but that is how I fee.
    If you are happily married this doesn’t matter, bu if you are not you are losing opportunities to meet people. But then they probably won’t want you either so is all good I guess you filter each other out.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Susan:

    Men should never buy drinks for women. It’s a really bad idea. It encourages a princess-like entitlement mentality, and also encourages men to think they deserve something in return for paying for the drink. It also feeds into beta anger that they can’t buy a woman’s companionship. But if a guy does buy a girl a drink, she should indeed thank him and engage in some polite chit-chat that manages to convey the idea that while she is flattered, she doesn’t owe him anything. Sometimes he’ll just be, say celebrating his job promotion by buying a drink for every pretty girl in the bar. That’s fine.

    @HanSolo:

    First I’ve got to write that book! I’ve been a bit lazy recently.

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    Thanks for giving me a good hearty laugh with your:

    “Practically everyone I knew in high school or college was a shit-head” 😀

  • HanSolo

    @Charlotte

    Well, my wonderful, lazy authoress, get cracking! 😉

  • angelguy

    “I do not require a face-to-face or even an over-the-phone conversation to discuss something with someone. Wasn’t my experience, I can communicate in different ways. In a lot of ways, I feel closer to some of my online friends than I do my Real-Life friends. ”

    If it’s not your communication style, it’s not your communication style. Oh well. Some of us can make that work for us.”

    @ A Definite beta guy

    No, it is not. I didn’t grow up with the internet. When we had to communicate with people, it was by telephone or in person.
    So for me, to go from speaking with people in person to through a computer is….different.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @HanSolo

    Spoken like an alpha! Yes, sir!

  • Man

    What I object to is female entitlement that expects these things.

    Of course all women love chivalry. But you will only understand the implications of women’s freedom on this once you make an attempt to view things from a man’s perspective. For starters, nowadays a man who’s chivalrous often doesn’t get laid and just ends up in the friendzone, watching jerks get the best part.

    The problem is that men were “conditioned” by feminism to be chivalrous as if all women are entitled to it, when in fact a man should be chivalrous only as a deep reflection of this gratitude, admiration and respect for the woman he’s being chivalrous to. So very often, men get the opposite results: end up in the friendzone, or are just ridiculed or humiliated esp. if he’s dealing with a sexually aggressive woman. The media (movies) have also been ridiculing chivalrous men for decades, because feminists equate them with being “traditional” and also expecting traditional roles. So basically women are just getting what they wanted (or at least what those sick/insane feminists wanted).

    A man also should never feel flattered to be chivalrous and end up in the friendzone or be the last in a long line of casual encounters where all the other non-chivalrous men enjoyed the best and kinkier part, and now he’s expected to be chivalrous and a gentleman, and yet deliver a high performance in bed, with vanilla sex, for a woman who, well, never valued him before and wasted her youth and beauty with other not so chivalrous studs.

    Sorry for my honesty. I am a Man. 🙂 Just wanted to point out how complex this is and the problem, yes, is when women feel entitled to chivalry just because they are women. They lost connection with (men’s) reality when they think so.

    P.S.: Susan, you rock. 😉

    • @Man

      The problem is that men were “conditioned” by feminism to be chivalrous as if all women are entitled to it, when in fact a man should be chivalrous only as a deep reflection of this gratitude, admiration and respect for the woman he’s being chivalrous to.

      Personally, I think it is nice when men offer chivalrous gestures like opening a door, as Charlotte mentioned earlier. And I really was horrified by reports of big burly men knocking children and grandmothers out of their way as they fled the Costa Condordia.

      But when it comes to romance, men will always do well to make women earn their respect and admiration. First date chivalry is one thing, but anything like servitude will work against a man trying to win a woman. Even if a woman is extremely attracted to you, she will punish you for giving her too much unconditional attention – in fact, she will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.

  • angelguy

    Being shy is not a crime you know? The world is full of people that need some level of comfort before meeting in person and they are not ‘webcam people”

    No, being shy is not a crime. But it is another obstacle, kind of like you were implying with online communication. One can’t remain shy forever, you eventually have to end up talking with someone.

    Only that people change slower than technology does, being shy has been with us longer than victorian times and until someone invents ‘anti-shyness pills” we are probably going to keep it around for a while.

    People can only change if they try to. There is no pill for that. Susan has posted many articles about approaching people. The girl game challenge currently happening is a prime example.

    If you are happily married this doesn’t matter, bu if you are not you are losing opportunities to meet people. But then they probably won’t want you either so is all good I guess you filter each other out.

    Perhaps so, but I can deal with that. Less fear involved.

  • Plain Jain

    Liz, “Yeah, I hate that vulnerability thing in particular. A sharp word or criticism throws me into a tizzy.”

    Its called a neg and is supposed to send you into a tingle.

    ” I just turned 50, goddammit, and while resilient in some ways, I seem to have serious self-esteem issues and am prone to emotional meltdowns both public and private. I don’t just cry – I choke up, hyperventilate, and get a migraine headache. ”

    Menopause.
    Men On Pause.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Man

    The way to be chivalrous is to be “alpha” chivalrous. Just open those doors–and if some feminist harridan gives you a dirty look or a hard time, you don’t care! Because you’re never going to give her the time of day. This is where the “aloofness” that Roissy talks about should come into play–a little smirk that tells her exactly what you think of her. And if she rewards you for your deed with a sweet smile, well….Never, never, should you do a chivalrous deed with the expectation of getting out of the friend zone. What are you doing in the friend zone to begin with, unless you two grew up as adoptive brother and sister? Alpha chivalry means doing chivalrous stuff because you’re a man and it’s a masculine thing to do. Always make that clear with your body language.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Plain Jain:

    Men don’t neg unattractive women.

  • Plain Jain

    Susan, “We do too. At the end of every meal, my husband thanks me for having made it. Of course it’s the least I can do, and thanks are not necessary. But he never fails to offer appreciation. And he also cleans the kitchen, sending me upstairs to read.

    Lots of thank yous will create an entirely different relationship dynamic than assuming no thanks are necessary.”

    – It must be a cultural thing. In my culture we don’t say thanks but show our gratitude in other ways. I will say this though. The way my grandparents and for a large part many younger members of my extended family behave, certain domestic chores are assumed and expected of the females and hardly a budge (or a bulge) is expected of the males.
    We are trying to change that now and that’s why it really triggers me when I get even a whiff of a hint of the same attitude over here.

    I will say that I am very much appreciative of the fact that domestic chores appear to be equally shared in the West. But why should I have to “appreciate” that? That’s the way it should have been always, everywhere.

    In my own home growing up with my parents it was not like that, but whenever we would return to their native countries the women were doing all the work and the men not lifting a finger. This disturbed me greatly but I was told not to make waves. I was even conscripted into playing house maid for my male cousins and when I refused, was looked upon as if I was a green alien.

    This is why I take issue with having to say “thankyou” to a man doing domestic chores. It reminds me to much of the reality that there are millions of men out there who expect that I should be doing all the chores and any finger lifting from the man should be met with surprise and adulation or “no, no, no let me do that…its not your job”.

    “Re the buying of drinks, I know first-hand via my focus groups that perfectly lovely young women can act in a very entitled manner when at bars, accepting drinks with no intention of even conversing with a guy.

    Sometimes guys send drinks over, so the woman has no overt obligation, but even then the nice thing to do is offer thanks and some conversation.”

    Send the drinks back with “fcuk off” written on a used, damp napkin in blue ink.

    Joking. (i think)

  • Plain Jain

    By the way, her book may be title The End of Men but that is not the conclusion she reached. The conclusion is that men are not finished. Nowhere near it.

  • Joe

    Angleguy, were you the one asking about quoting yesterday?

    On most WordPress templates (including this one), you can enclose the quote with the blockquote tag to get it marked and indented (or just the em tag to get it italicized). You know; the word blockquote in angled brackets to start and /blockquote in angled brackets to end it.

    <blockquote>Your quoted passage here</blockquote>

  • HanSolo

    Related to this post and concerns that men might have, one is the concern of being presumed a rapist. I know that especially in the past, and even today, I still carry this worry in my mind that the woman is suspicious of me. Of course, women need to be cautious and rape does happen. OTOH, the witch-hunt attitude doesn’t help men at all.

    Here’s an example of a feminist who, according to police, anonymously posted an online threat to hatefuck Meg Simons Lanker, who, as it turns out, is none other than herself.

    http://conservativehideout.com/2013/05/01/liberal-blogger-meg-lanker-simons-accused-of-embracing-letist-tradition-stages-own-rape-threats/

    Combine this with the kangeroo courts that some men face as accused rapists on college campuses and you can see why some good men feel a little more leary. (And, I’m not excusing or trying to deflect from the problem of rape.)

    However, on that matter, the FBI shows that in an era of increased encouragement to report that rapes and attempted rapes have decreased a lot:

    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594

    From 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000.

    Completed rape (not attempted or threatened) fell by 68%, from about 3.7 to 1.2 per 1,000.

    This is great news for women, men and society at large.

  • HanSolo

    And let me add, I hope that we can further reduce and eliminate rape.

  • Man

    Never, never, should you do a chivalrous deed with the expectation of getting out of the friend zone. What are you doing in the friend zone to begin with, unless you two grew up as adoptive brother and sister? Alpha chivalry means doing chivalrous stuff because you’re a man and it’s a masculine thing to do.

    @Charlotte: everything a man does is phalocentric, either consciously or not. If women want men to be chivalrous it is very simple: reward them for that and you know what I mean.

  • angelguy

    “Angleguy, were you the one asking about quoting yesterday?

    On most WordPress templates (including this one), you can enclose the quote with the blockquote tag to get it marked and indented (or just the em tag to get it italicized). You know; the word blockquote in angled brackets to start and /blockquote in angled brackets to end it.

    Your quoted passage here

    @Joe

    No, I didn’t ask before, but I was thinking about it after my last post.
    I appreciate the time you took to do this, thank you.

    Still getting used to posting here.

  • Plain Jain

    Charlotte:
    Never, never, should you do a chivalrous deed with the expectation of getting out of the friend zone. What are you doing in the friend zone to begin with, unless you two grew up as adoptive brother and sister? Alpha chivalry means doing chivalrous stuff because you’re a man and it’s a masculine thing to do.

    Man:
    @Charlotte: everything a man does is phalocentric, either consciously or not. If women want men to be chivalrous it is very simple: reward them for that and you know what I mean.
    _______

    See Charlotte, this is the New Millenium Man out there that we young women are contending with. Your generation of men sees chivalrous acts as social etiquette. These types of men like the commenter “Man” above, sees opening a door for a stranger as something that should be rewarded for with sex. That is what he means by “you know what I mean”.

    This is one of the reasons why I NEVER let a man in my age range open a door for me. On the contrary I open doors for them. And I sure as hell don’t expect (or want) sex from them.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Plain Jain:

    Send the drinks back with “fcuk off” written on a used, damp napkin in blue ink.

    –From Plain Jain’s Guide to Catching Flies With Vinegar

    @Man:

    If women want men to be chivalrous it is very simple: reward them for that and you know what I mean.

    You will be rewarded. Just not by Amanda Marcotte.

  • Gin Martini

    CA: “The way to be chivalrous is to be “alpha” chivalrous. Just open those doors–and if some feminist harridan gives you a dirty look or a hard time, you don’t care! Because you’re never going to give her the time of day.”

    I was at the local diner this morning having breakfast. The place we go to every week, where the waitresses call you “hon” and “sweetheart”.

    There was a new waitress today, 30-ish, not fat.

    A nice elderly man asked her coffee, and politely called her “Ma’am”. She got really angry and told him off in front of everyone, that he should never call her “ma’am”. The poor guy was confused, and shyly said “But I don’t know your name?”

    As she walked by us, I smirked and said loudly enough for everyone to hear – “He *clearly* should have used a much nastier word for you.”

    Now get this — she smiled back at me, raising her razor-thin eyebrows. Yes, I just insulted her in front of others, not even “negged”.

    (Anyone wanna guess the word I had in mind?)

    • @Gin Martini

      I was recently out with my book group for our annual dinner – eight women. The waitress had not approached after 10 minutes, so my friend called out to her: “Miss?” She came striding over and told her off for using the condescending term Miss. It was so ridiculous – the woman who’d said this is a total knee-jerk feminist and liberal.

      Would “Hey you” have been more acceptable? I don’t get it.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Plain Jain:

    This is one of the reasons why I NEVER let a man in my age range open a door for me. On the contrary I open doors for them. And I sure as hell don’t expect (or want) sex from them.

    –Another excerpt from Plain Jain’s Guide to Catching Flies With Vinegar

  • Man

    This is one of the reasons why I NEVER let a man in my age range open a door for me. On the contrary I open doors for them. And I sure as hell don’t expect (or want) sex from them.

    I really doubt you open the door to any man. As the New Millenium (Feminist) Woman, you’re too immersed in yourself to take notice that men even exist. That said, if you indeed do that and even share or pay the bill, I would say you’re pretty honest. 🙂 Try to think about this way: the New Millenium Man is a failed feminist project because women should focus instead on resolving their own issues and letting men to be men, instead teaching them to be girly and teaching women to be a macho man.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “One of my favorite things to grill is Korean BBQ. If your wife plans meals like that you must eat really well. I love Korean food!”

    Ah my eternal struggle.
    Wife prefers gal-bi whereas I prefer bul-go-gi.

    Another good one is just straight topoki (rice noodle rolled into a tube) cooked in hot pepper sauce (its similar to tofu and sucks up the flavour of whatever it is cooked with).

    She is an excellent cook though neither of us can bake.

    Note: I have vastly improved with my cooking abilities in the past 5 years.

  • Man

    But when it comes to romance, men will always do well to make women earn their respect and admiration.

    +1

    Even if a woman is extremely attracted to you, she will punish you for giving her too much unconditional attention – in fact, she will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.

    Could you elaborate a bit further on this? She will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.

    • Could you elaborate a bit further on this? She will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.

      I meant that she will be most disappointed in those men if they lack the dominance to go along with their good looks. I have known many good looking betas who get a ton of attention from girls. In fact, these guys can get ONSs if they want, though many pass. Where they run into trouble is in sustaining that attraction. He likes her, she likes him, he offers to be her boyfriend immediately. To a woman, that means he’s giving away commitment cheap. It’s analogous to a woman agreeing to sex very quickly – it is a demonstration of low value.

  • angelguy

    (Anyone wanna guess the word I had in mind?)

    @Gin Martini

    It wasn’t the “C’ word, was it?

  • angelguy

    “Even if a woman is extremely attracted to you, she will punish you for giving her too much unconditional attention – in fact, she will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.”

    @Susan

    This explains a lot, learned that the hard way.

  • Charlotte Allen

    I think women are hardest on the men they find least attractive.

    • I think women are hardest on the men they find least attractive.

      Well, yes, of course they won’t even give those men the time of day. I didn’t explain that very well. What I meant was that a guy can go from hero to zero very quickly by acting eager. This post explains it best:

      7 Reasons Women Reject Eager Men

      The more attractive the man, the more disappointing it is if he acts in a supplicating manner. I’ve had women contact me while this was happening.

      “Ugh, I like him so much, and he’s blowing it! He’s way too interested, he’s talking about trips we’ll take this summer, and my meeting his family and we’ve only been on two dates! He doesn’t know me well enough to like me this much!”

      Women today will be repelled by emotional escalation from the male, but not by sexual escalation.

  • Charlotte Allen

    And they do find servile men the least attractive. I think that chivalry and servility should never be confused.

  • Man

    …in fact, she will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.

    Susan, I am not so optimistic about this. It could lead one to think, for instance, that women are generally mean to “nice guys” because they find them attractive. There is nothing further from the truth. Of course, I know they want a “strong” man, just like men are entitled to not feel any attraction to feminists. I think it’s sort of “man are from mars” and “women are from venus” and there is no interplanetary connection or dialogue unless women develop a bit further their rational part and do not dwell too much in a world of puerile fantasies (venus). Sometimes I think you try to dress women’s irrational choices with lofty explanations. But you’re a woman. So that’s normal even considering your well above average female emotional intelligence quotient with regard to understanding what men really want.

  • Maggie

    “see Charlotte, this is the New Millenium Man out there that we young women are contending with. Your generation of men sees chivalrous acts as social etiquette. These types of men like the commenter “Man” above, sees opening a door for a stranger as something that should be rewarded for with sex. That is what he means by “you know what I mean”.

    Not really. Years ago when I worked in Boston and was very pregnant and riding the T to work not one man ever offered me his seat. Fast forward to today, I live in the South and I have never had a man NOT open a door for me. They expect nothing in return, though I always smile and say thank you. Even the teens at the high school do it. It’s just different cultures for different places.

    • Years ago when I worked in Boston and was very pregnant and riding the T to work not one man ever offered me his seat.

      I had the same experience in both my pregnancies. In contrast, several women offered me a seat!

      Boston’s a tough place that way. I have always enjoyed the friendly attitude of Southerners, though I do get impatient with chatty waiters, sales clerks, etc. Just take my order and go! 😛

  • Man

    A lot of female readers here don’t even grasp the level at which we’re talking about. I will explain what feminism is really all about: Unconscious desire of cavewomen to be dominated and subjugated, by stirring male anger through psychological and emotional shaming on men who give them unconditional attention, including chivalrous men. The solution is very simple: break up with feminism and be a woman! Men are naturally gentle and chivalrous to feminine women. The problem is that this dynamic works on a societal level too: the more feminists in a society, the less chivalrous men will be in the long run, until society falls apart and a new society emerges out from the ashes.

    OK, I will give you a break. Susan and Charlotte, you do not deserve this. 🙂 Take care.

    • A lot of female readers here don’t even grasp the level at which we’re talking about.

      Yeah, they do. We’ve discussed femininity here quite a bit, I’ve written a bunch of posts about it. We get the occasional feisty feminist here, but not often. Mostly, the women here get it.

  • Man

    The more attractive the man, the more disappointing it is if he acts in a supplicating manner. … Women today will be repelled by emotional escalation from the male, but not by sexual escalation.

    Thanks for the clarification. I get it. I will also have a look at the referenced article. I was writing another commnet and lost it while posting. I was going to say that’s why most PUAs live a psychological inferno. They often complain they cannot be vulnerable. And the problem is that they projected an inner strenght and fortitude they do not have. So in the end, the “player” and the willingly “played” woman sort of really deserve each other.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “First date chivalry is one thing, but anything like servitude will work against a man trying to win a woman. Even if a woman is extremely attracted to you, she will punish you for giving her too much unconditional attention”

    What would constitute too much attention, I suspect the lists produced by men and women would differ.
    I would argue that on a first date it is far better to qualify her as opposed to trying to qualify yourself to her.

    “– in fact, she will be hardest on the men she finds most attractive.”

    Depends what you mean by hardest.
    I would argue accepting free stuff from others with zero intent in returning the favour with zero explanation of that prior is rather harsh in comparison to getting pissed about giving you too much.

    ‘NO!!! How dare you try and give me $20.’

    Vs.

    ‘Thanks for $20.’

    The first sounds worse but the second guy is out $20.

    —-

    My personal opinion on chivalry.

    Men and women are equal.
    I do not open doors for random men so I do not open doors for random women.
    I do not open doors for male friends and I value my female friends less than my male friends so I do not open doors for my female friends.

    Therefore the only thing left that makes a woman (non-family) worthy of any form of chivalry is sex as it is the only differentiating factor between men and women.

    Horny knight. All damsels in need of assistance must pay all applicable fees.

    • @Lokland

      Men and women are equal.
      I do not open doors for random men so I do not open doors for random women.
      I do not open doors for male friends and I value my female friends less than my male friends so I do not open doors for my female friends.

      I assume you don’t like green eggs and ham?

      My version:

      Men and women are equal.

      I hold open a door for anyone who’s close behind me, for children, parents with strollers, anyone carrying something with both hands, for elderly folks, and sometimes on a whim just to be friendly. I’ve even held doors open for men my age, who are generally amused.

      I always hold open doors for friends or family of either sex, and any age.

      I’m not saying this to portray myself as especially nice. I enjoy the exchange of smiles.

  • Anacaona

    I had the same experience in both my pregnancies. In contrast, several women offered me a seat!
    Me too! 🙁
    And to think that all those times back at home when I offered my seat and my place in line in DR to any pregnant lady (and men and women do this there is only polite) I was going to get back all those favors the moment I was pregnant…yeah right. I joked with hubby that I will move to DR in my next pregnancy so people give me priority treatment. After years of accumulating Karma for my pregnancy I want my payback, dammit! :p

  • Tomato

    I hold the door for everyone, regardless of gender. *shrug*

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Would “Hey you” have been more acceptable? I don’t get it.”

    Please say you complained to the manager/owner?

    When ones political views prevent someone from doing their job (in this case being pleasant and efficient) appropriately (especially if those views are extremist) one needs to be swatted across the back of the head and told to get over it.

    • Please say you complained to the manager/owner?

      I felt that was the job of the woman who had the exchange with her, who was clearly not interested in pursuing it.

  • Man

    @Susan: Thank you very much for the 7 Reasons Women Reject Eager Men. Know what? I am just realizing how I’ve been doing all the wrong things all over these years looking for a relationship and commitment. I should’ve instead had the occasional available pussy, just like the smarter guys have been doing.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Maggie:

    You are a victim of feminism. This all started during the 1970s. In fact it was an amazingly short time–only months perhaps–between the first feminist shriek, “I’m perfectly able to stand, thank you!” to an across-the-board refusal by all men of all ages except the most elderly to give up their seat to any woman–pregnant, nursing, old, disabled, whatever–for any reason whatsoever. I always give up my seat to pregnant ladies (and elderly ladies and ladies burdened with children, but men don’t. Feminism has made them despise women.

    @Man:

    I don’t think I’ll live long enough to see that new age.

  • I always give up my seat to pregnant ladies (and elderly ladies and ladies burdened with children, but men don’t. Feminism has made them despise women.

    This.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I assume you don’t like green eggs and ham?”

    I don’t like ham at all and don’t often eat eggs 😛

    “I’m not saying this to portray myself as especially nice. I enjoy the exchange of smiles.”

    I find this amusing as I don’t think anyone outside of my immediate social circle has ever held the door open for me.

    Note: Holding door open is equally applicable to any other chivalrous act. Just using one out of convenience.

    Although a woman bought me flowers once, that was awkward.

    @Charlotte/Susan

    “Feminism has made them despise women.”

    No I don’t think so.
    (apparent) Altruism can only exist when there is a reasonable assurance that one will be payed back for the action (even if not by the same individual). Basically its a form of extended cooperation in society.

    There was always the hiccup that men and women require different things and thus straight I’ll give you A and you pay me back in A later was not and is not possible.

    So, as an example, pregnant lady on a bus. Man gives up seat. The only reason he has to do that is if there is reasonable assurance that he will be payed back. However, he cannot become pregnant so the payment system cannot be symmetric. (I am not equating giving up a bus seat with sex btw.)

    I think feminism killed off a lot of the asymmetric exchanges between the sexes (both directions) which is too bad because for cooperation to exist those asymmetric exchanges must take place.

    Then we end up in the present with two sides unwilling to give each other anything because they don’t expect to get anything in return.

    Going back to the original quote men don’t despise women because of feminism but because (I want chivalry + feminism)= Free Lunch Please.
    Our entire civilization was built on ‘You scratch my back , I’ll scratch your back’ and then adding in enough middle men to keep everyone busy.

    There ain’t no free lunch.

  • Sassy6519

    I hold doors open for people, male or female, if they are within 2-4 paces of the door itself. I walk through by myself and don’t hold the door if they are farther away than that.

    Maybe I’m weird though.

  • Gin Martini

    Tomato: “I hold the door for everyone, regardless of gender. *shrug*”

    It’s mere courtesy to hold open a door for a person who is behind you. That’s very different than holding a door open and letting them go through first. Only very special women get the latter from me. 😉

    Maggie: “Years ago when I worked in Boston and was very pregnant and riding the T to work not one man ever offered me his seat. ”

    Read my story from earlier today, and see what “southern hospitality” would get you in good ol’ Boston.

  • Lokland

    @OTC

    “It’s mere courtesy to hold open a door for a person who is behind you. That’s very different than holding a door open and letting them go through first. Only very special women get the latter from me. ”

    Ohh, I thought we were talking about the second.
    I hold doors open for people behind me all the time but I’m still in front of them.

    Holding a door open and letting the woman walk through first requires some form of payment.

  • Anacaona

    I hold doors open for people behind me all the time but I’m still in front of them.
    Likewise. Still not pregnant seat offers 🙁

  • Pip

    My Joe and I are an example of people who might have married one another at a younger age but now, in our early 30s, we are both too “on our way” materialistically for the pooling of assets and the combined asset acquisition benefit of marriage to mean anything. In fact, we are to the point where you wonder what you would lose w/r/t asset acquisition if divorce occurred. (We are in a community property state.)

    (wow! this is romantic! eat your heart out Jennifer Crusie)

    He’s a shareholder in a law firm. I have a sole proprietorship for my work. It would just be for show now, certainly, and would only introduce complexity. We aren’t ever going to fall *more* deeply in love, married or not.

  • mr. wavevector

    Years ago when I worked in Boston and was very pregnant and riding the T to work not one man ever offered me his seat. Fast forward to today, I live in the South and I have never had a man NOT open a door for me.

    I suspect that has something to do with the concentration of feminists in the local population. More feminists = more unchivalrous men. And Boston is full of feminists.

    • And Boston is full of feminists.

      Ha, tell me about it! Nutty feminists and radical liberals. Sadly, despite my best efforts, my children have been affected by the culture and now spout all sorts of liberal ideology. I take comfort in the old Churchill quote.

  • Maggie

    “Holding a door open and letting the woman walk through first requires some form of payment.”

    I guess I am lucky. I live in a progressive town with lots of feminists (yeah, there are some in the south) and this happens to me all the time without payment expected. It’s lovely, really.

  • From this page :

    It’s a young girl’s bond with her father, and the deliberate destruction of that bond to lay the foundation for the chaos you’re analyzing.

    Piaget stated clearly, “Children remain virginal out of love for their parents. First sex is the transfer of the father-daughter bond, and the more powerful the bond, the more carefully she picks the man she transfers it to.”

    He went on in that vein for some time, showing over and over that both sexes get their sexual identity from their father, and that they learn to deal with the opposite sex from him.

    My own experience is exactly that. The better a girl’s bond with her father was, the more “sane” she is from a male’s standpoint, and willing to work toward win-win scenarios identified in some of the matrices you’ve laid out.

    When I was a young whoredog, and discovered this fact, I’d skip the flirting, and just ask a girl, “So, tell me about your Dad…” The more vitriol or disdain that produced, the more surely she’d cooperate with her own long-term degradation for short-term fun; that is, the quicker her knickers would hit the floor.

    … girls need their daddies, not just home in the evenings, but during the day in the field near the house where he can be found at any time to tend a bruise or give a hug, and where his constant presence, sight, and smell would drive into her marrow the idea that she is safe and loved.

    The separation of families from their livelihood was purposeful, I believe, and started far longer ago than anyone realizes.

    I’ve seen modern families in which men turned their backs on the forces trying to pry them out of their homes, and their daughters grow up sane, willing and able to use their minds to tame their natures, and to work toward win-win situations with their men.

    They also would never think to take a man of a color different from the Dad they love. It just wouldn’t occur to them; he’d have all the wrong cues of sight, scent, speech, character, the works.

    He’d simply never be a candidate, because he doesn’t match the mold.

    The women you’re seeing have never had a “mold” built into them which a man must fit in order to be loveable, so they have nothing but evolution to go on.

    And, of course, ZOG is there to give them the weapons to turn what would be a minor internecine conflict into a society-destroying war.

  • Idli Dosa

    Charlotte Allen May 2, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    @Plain Jain:

    This is one of the reasons why I NEVER let a man in my age range open a door for me. On the contrary I open doors for them. And I sure as hell don’t expect (or want) sex from them.

    –Another excerpt from Plain Jain’s Guide to Catching Flies With Vinegar

    ____

    Charlotte, why would I want to catch a man who expects sex as a reward for opening a door? Men like “MAN” above do not expect congruent rewards for their behaviour. The congruent reward for opening a door is a “thankyou” – not a date, not a kiss, and certainly not sex. A THANKYOU.

  • Sassy6519

    They also would never think to take a man of a color different from the Dad they love. It just wouldn’t occur to them; he’d have all the wrong cues of sight, scent, speech, character, the works.

    Ummmmmm………………..ok.

    WTF?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Susan

    Ha, tell me about it! Nutty feminists and radical liberals. Sadly, despite my best efforts, my children have been affected by the culture and now spout all sorts of liberal ideology. I take comfort in the old Churchill quote.

    You see that new Oregon Medicaid study? I am not sure if you are following Marginal Revolution religiously or not. Amazing stuff.

    Expand healthcare massively, increase health costs by 35%

    Is anyone healthier?

    Uhhhh…

    Nope!

    Unbelievable. At least the Iraq War was temporary. The Democrats sold us this stupid health-care expansion with no evidence behind more health care=better health. Just sob stories about people with no insurance.

    Fucking American politics.

  • Idli Dosa

    “Holding a door open and letting the woman walk through first requires some form of payment.”

    We’ve have two men assert this here and neither are coming out and saying straight what sort of payment they are alluding to. OUT WITH IT! What do you want?

    ” They also would never think to take a man of a color different from the Dad they love. It just wouldn’t occur to them; he’d have all the wrong cues of sight, scent, speech, character, the works.”

    Sassy: Ummmmmm………………..ok.

    WTF?
    ___

    Exactly. WTF? I love my daddy to pieces but I’ve dated men both much lighter and darker than him in hue. As well as men from completely different cultures with completely different smells. He had no problem with any of that.

    “Children remain virginal out of love for their parents. First sex is the transfer of the father-daughter bond, and the more powerful the bond, the more carefully she picks the man she transfers it to.”

    Weird. Disgusting even.

  • Idli Dosa

    “Sadly, despite my best efforts, my children have been affected by the culture and now spout all sorts of liberal ideology.”

    Like what Susan? You described self-described as a “Massechusette’s liberal” yourself, so what liberal ideology d/o you kid have that are different from your own?

  • Idli Dosa

    Gin Martini, “A nice elderly man asked her coffee, and politely called her “Ma’am”. She got really angry and told him off in front of everyone, that he should never call her “ma’am”.

    I don’t get it. Why didn’t she want to be called ma’am?

  • SayWhaat

    I give up my seat often, to men or women who seem like they need it more than I do.

    In fact, just today I offered my seat to an elderly Chinese lady who had struggled onto the train carrying 6 giant bags of aluminum cans. My reward was a surprise attack from a cockroach. 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    Ha, tell me about it! Nutty feminists and radical liberals. Sadly, despite my best efforts, my children have been affected by the culture and now spout all sorts of liberal ideology. I take comfort in the old Churchill quote.

    I was a true-blue liberal in college. I’m definitely more conservative now, which means I consider myself to be more moderate. 😛

    Then again, growing up in the South with a traditional family may have been a factor…

  • SayWhaat

    They also would never think to take a man of a color different from the Dad they love. It just wouldn’t occur to them; he’d have all the wrong cues of sight, scent, speech, character, the works.

    Ummmmmm………………..ok.

    WTF?

    I initially took that to mean that girls with strong bonds with their fathers wouldn’t think to date men who didn’t resemble their fathers in character, values, etc.

    Reading it again, it’s definitely WTF-material. Where was this pulled, some HBD blog? Pfft.

  • Anacaona

    Ummmmmm………………..ok.

    WTF?
    Cosigned. Daddy is very dark skinned and obviously hubby couldn’t be more white if he tried. This theory is at best incomplete.

  • SayWhaat

    Expand healthcare massively, increase health costs by 35%

    Is anyone healthier?

    Uhhhh…

    Nope!

    I think the biggest culprit is inflated medical expenses. Can’t find it now, but there was an article that detailed a medical bill where they found that they were being billed $X for some amount of gauze, and when they looked on Amazon.com they found three times the amount for a quarter of the price. Everything is way too expensive. No wonder healthcare tourism is growing!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Doesn’t matter what the costs are. The idea behind the “experiment” is that some people got Medicaid coverage and some people didn’t. The people that got Medicaid coverage certainly thought they were healthier and used a lot more health services,

    and there isn’t any good evidence that they have better health outcomes. Even if they do have better health outcomes, they are marginal improvements at beast. IE, % of people with hyper-tension declined from 16% to 15%.

    For this wonderful “health” improvement, we will be spending hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Of course, even if you reduce health care costs by 90%, it’s still a shit-load of money for stuff that may not do anything.

  • Idli Dosa

    “. The people that got Medicaid coverage certainly thought they were healthier and used a lot more health services”

    If someone is thinks they’re healthy then why used health services? What need is there?

    I haven’t been to a doctor in over a decade. Could something be wrong with me that I don’t know about (asymptomatic)? Possibly. But if it ain’t broke, why fix it?

    I don’t go to dentists either and my teeth are as white and square as the background of this comment box.

    Thanks to oil pulling… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_pulling

  • Idli Dosa

    “Reading it again, it’s definitely WTF-material. Where was this pulled, some HBD blog? Pfft.”

    I love HBD. It exposes me to an ever widening variety of MBD. 😉

  • Idli Dosa

    SayWhaat, a comment from that very site;

    Hello from the Colonies,

    I’m about halfway through “The Neo-Nazi Squatter’s Guide to Pulling Dutch Jailbait,”

  • Charlotte Allen

    Idli Dosa:

    Charlotte, why would I want to catch a man who expects sex as a reward for opening a door? Men like “MAN” above do not expect congruent rewards for their behaviour. The congruent reward for opening a door is a “thankyou” – not a date, not a kiss, and certainly not sex. A THANKYOU.

    Who said I think sex is a reward for opening a door?

  • Idli Dosa

    Charlotte:
    Never, never, should you do a chivalrous deed with the expectation of getting out of the friend zone. What are you doing in the friend zone to begin with, unless you two grew up as adoptive brother and sister? Alpha chivalry means doing chivalrous stuff because you’re a man and it’s a masculine thing to do.

    Man:
    @Charlotte: everything a man does is phalocentric, either consciously or not. If women want men to be chivalrous it is very simple: reward them for that and you know what I mean.
    PJ:
    See Charlotte, this is the New Millenium Man out there that we young women are contending with. Your generation of men sees chivalrous acts as social etiquette. These types of men like the commenter “Man” above, sees opening a door for a stranger as something that should be rewarded for with sex. That is what he means by “you know what I mean”.

    This is one of the reasons why I NEVER let a man in my age range open a door for me. On the contrary I open doors for them. And I sure as hell don’t expect (or want) sex from them.
    ___________________________

    That was the the line of reasoning you responding to both me and Man after. Are you reading the comment only partially?

    There’s a very clear implication in Man’s, and yet you respond that I’m trying to “catch flies with vinegar” and ignore the context of both his and my comments.

  • Gin Martini

    PJ: “I don’t get it. Why didn’t she want to be called ma’am?”

    It’s rather obvious to me, but I’m not going to answer. Go entrap someone else.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Chivalry discussions always degrade to opening doors. Nuts. There are too many factors, too many variables, and too many people claiming–probably accurately–that they hold doors for anybody. Anybody can open a door. Doors prove nothing.
    Chivalry in the larger sense has some difficulties. Like, say, attacking a guy who’s attacking a woman. Or matching your pace to a woman’s if she’s passing a potential threat. Or taking the stairs in a parking garage late at night if she’s taking the elevator, or going the long way so as to get to your car after she’s gone. Or…. Things guys can do that women can’t return in kind,which is the difficulty.
    About PAYMENT?!?!?!?!?
    Give me a freaking break. You do this stuff because it’s the right thing to do. Some nutcase feminist must have made up this stupid “payment” argument in order to discredit men. What discredits men is men acting as if this is a valid argument. I hope we’re not that dumb. Feminists think we are.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Re: reward for opening doors. I think some people need to re-read
    296 Lokland May 2, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Pay attention.

    The repayment is indirect. paying forward is another way to put it. We all help each other out, trusting that help will be there when we need it. This is an essential feature of a high trust society. You have no idea how alien that is to tribal cultures.

    I suppose we also hope word will get around that we’re OK.

    Stupid, selfish people attempt to cheat by accepting help without giving in return.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Idli Dosa:

    I don’t think he was talking about a sexual payment. I think he was talking about frisson between a man and a woman. You read in the sex.

  • Idli Dosa

    “It’s rather obvious to me, but I’m not going to answer. Go entrap someone else.”

    A cultural thing? In the US ma’am is etiquette used in the Southern States and by Black people. I like it.

    ” Things guys can do that women can’t return in kind,which is the difficulty.
    About PAYMENT?!?!?!?!?
    Give me a freaking break. You do this stuff because it’s the right thing to do. ”

    Correction, R. Aubrey – YOU do this stuff. Not all men do it, and “MAN” here certainly does not!

    “This is an essential feature of a high trust society. You have no idea how alien that is to tribal cultures. ”

    Ever been to some tribal regions. I have. They were much more trusting and sharing and kind then the “civilized” place I am in right now.

    “I don’t think he was talking about a sexual payment. I think he was talking about frisson between a man and a woman. You read in the sex.”

    Well, we can let MAN speak for himself. I’ve already asked him to clarify and he’s avoided thus far.

    And I see no reason to feel a “thrill of excitement” because a stranger opens a door for me. Its a nice social courtesy which I appreciate, but there’s no thrill.

    fris·son
    /frēˈsôN/
    Noun
    A sudden strong feeling of excitement or fear; a thrill: “a frisson of excitement”.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Ever been to some tribal regions. I have. They were much more trusting and sharing and kind then the “civilized” place I am in right now.

    Sure. You were an exotic guest, not one of the neighbors.

  • Idli Dosa

    “Sure. You were an exotic guest, not one of the neighbors.”

    Uh, noooooo.

  • I still say marriage is not needed for a long term relationship. The post we’re commenting on says “reasons men avoid commitment” but that’s not accurate. It should say “reasons people of both genders have decided that marriage is unnecessary”.

    I’m not strongly against it, I just don’t see the need for it. If you start out as friends, then develop feelings, then consummate the relationship, and you remain together for decades, that’s effectively a marriage, is it not? Just without the legal and financial burdens which the legal document potentially entails. To my knowledge we don’t have common law marriage in California btw. 😉 (nor would I want to have it, because that defeats the purpose of staying together without getting legally married)

    I’m a moderate liberal btw. I voted for Obama both times, and I also voted for Schwarzenegger (republican) for governor of California both times. 🙂 I’m to the left on all the social issues. 🙂

  • Lokland

    @Dinkey Pawson

    “The repayment is indirect. paying forward is another way to put it. We all help each other out, trusting that help will be there when we need it. This is an essential feature of a high trust society. You have no idea how alien that is to tribal cultures.”

    This.
    A kind action must be reciprocated with a kind action or else the person is giving something away for nothing.

    A woman demanding chivalry without offering anything is essentially stealing his ‘effort’ without offering anything in return. In evolutionary terms its theft of resources (spite) as opposed to cooperation (working together for mutual positive gain).

    However men don’t need someone to hold the door (or any other chivalrous act) and so must be payed back in another way. Feminism killed those ways as well as chivalry.

    —-

    As for paying it forward, yes thats the general idea. I’ll be nice to you and not expect anything in return because at some point someone else will be able to help me out when I need it.

    But women and men are incapable of being nice to one another because feminism killed the chivalry-respect exchange. Hence the person who tries to go first may very well never receive payment for the action from another. Seeing as we are quite risk averse (as a species) in general we have a problem with lots of guys not approaching because they have no reason to expect repayment.

    ———–

    @PJ

    Shut up PJ.

  • Lokland

    @Richard

    Do something because it is right only works if there is a reward at the end (or lack of punishment).

    Largely a society cannot exist where everyone does their own thing but the first people to exit the existence race are those who can’t figure out no one is going to pay them back.

    Also, opening door is just a widespread and common occurrence to be used in place of all forms of chivalry. We could discuss how chivalrous it is to save a damsel in distress from getting raped or some such but the number of times that has occurred with me being nearby is zero and I assume others guys will be in similar situations.

  • Liz

    @PJ

    ” I just turned 50, goddammit, and while resilient in some ways, I seem to have serious self-esteem issues and am prone to emotional meltdowns both public and private. I don’t just cry – I choke up, hyperventilate, and get a migraine headache. ”

    Menopause.

    Sorry, can’t blame that one. Been that way all my life.

    @Charlotte

    Men don’t neg unattractive women.

    So either they’re not really men or I’m unattractive? :-O

    Just kidding. I didn’t mean male negatives specifically. A pointless insult from a random guy wouldn’t bother me much. It’s a reflection on him, not me.

    I was responding to Sassy’s experience of hardening herself to stuff. As a sensitive person in many ways, I’ve been forced to do that. It’s hard for me to express my true feelings, or even know what they are sometimes. People consider me easy to get along with, which is good, but it has a flip side.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Liz:

    So either they’re not really men or I’m unattractive? :-O

    Probably the latter. That’s not a reflection on you–you actually have to be not just attractive but super-attractive to be negged. Otherwise, it’s not a neg. It’s an insult.

    I’ve never been negged. I’ve never been good-looking enough. Here’s an example of my chronic non-negworthiness: The summer typing class for high-schoolers that I took when I was 14. There were seven or eight boys in the class, all 16-18. There were two girls: a drop-dead-gorgeous blonde about 16, and me: a gawky, pallid “late bloomer,” as my mother tactfully put it. Plus, I rode my bicycle to the class, which was the height of dorkiness back then. Whenever the teacher was out of the classroom, the boys turned their typing practice sheets into paper airplanes and crumpled balls and heaved them at the blonde. She pretended to be insulted but mostly giggled. That was negging. I sat there miserable, wishing beyond wishing that someone would throw a crumpled-paper ball at me. One of the boys did, exactly once toward the end of the summer, and I think out of politeness. My consolation prize was that I was #1 in the class, even though I’m not very dextrous–because I was the only one who did the homework drills.

    • I sat there miserable, wishing beyond wishing that someone would throw a crumpled-paper ball at me.

      One of the saddest things I’ve heard as a blogger was when a young woman around 20 told me that she dreams of one day getting approached for a hookup or even booty called. She said that as far as she knew, a guy had never been attracted to her.

  • From wikipedia :

    Interracial marriages are rising.

    In these marriages, white women prefer black men over Asian men, and white men prefer Asians over Africans. The interesting thing is, is the divorce rate between white women/black men are twice as high as the difference between white couples.

    The divorce rate between Asian women/white men are almost similar to that of white couples.

    But the really interesting thing is this : The divorce rate between black women/white men is significantly less than white couples.

    So white women’s chances of divorce increases in interracial marriages, while that of white men, stays the same, or decreases.

    Hence one can say that Robert de Niro is smarter than Kim Kardashian.

    (neutrino78x, if you go black, you’re never coming back … heh)

    Black men and Asian women are the most likely to marry inter-racially, but not with each other; their intermarriage rate is one of the lowest.

    Black women and Asian men are the least likely to marry inter-racially, and almost never with each other; their intermarriage rate is the lowest.

    Of the Asian men there is one group that is an exception; the men will marry more interracially than the women, though they’re levels of interracial marriages are the lowest of all races :

    Indians.

    Why is that Saywhaat & PJ ?

  • Re: showing vulnerability, being emo, etc. I think that as a general rule it is probably best for a guy to limit his emotional displays to women in two ways: a) false vulnerability narratives in which you pick something that you are actually extremely confident about and know is a personal strength, and then act as if you have a sensitivity or insecurity in that area; b) vulnerability to a scenario that is quintessentially masculine (i.e., a man becomes visibly emotional when watching a film in which a dog passes away, during a dramatic athletic performance, when a father teaches his son to successfully hunt with a crossbow, or when watching a beloved member of a close-knit military or supero team fall heroically in battle).

    So I think that the more sensitive man can reveal to women that he does have a rich emotional landscape, so long as this private world remains fairly
    exclusive and mysterious and fraternal, like a Little Rascals treehouse.

    Re: chivalry and other Nice Guy episodes. I think that these don’t have to be associated with weakness or pedestalization at all, so long as chivalric mores are internalized and applied indiscriminately. If you find yourself acting chivalrous only to girls that you want to fuck, then that’s probably the wrong way to play it IMHO. It should be something you reflexively do for all women because you just enjoy women in a more universal sense. So it becomes the opposite of a desperate “One-Itis” signal (and may in fact have the opposite effect, especially in a tactical environment in which female intrasexual competition is quite high).

    Just my $.02!

  • Charlotte Allen

    @ Bastiat Blogger:

    If you find yourself acting chivalrous only to girls that you want to fuck, then that’s probably the way to play it IMHO. It should be something you reflexively do for all women because you just enjoy women in a more universal sense. So it becomes the opposite of a desperate “One-Itis” signal (and may in fact have the opposite
    effect, especially in a tactical environment in which female intrasexual
    competition is quite high).

    Exactly. Alpha chivalry.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Lokland.
    I’ve laid hands on assailants twice–they wouldn’t fight me–and approached sweaty situations a number of times. Nothing happened and maybe nothing would have happened.
    But, just in case….
    I suspect the women in question–none of whom I knew–were relieved.
    Yeah. The payback I get is that I live up to my own view.

  • Tomato

    “It’s mere courtesy to hold open a door for a person who is behind you. That’s very different than holding a door open and letting them go through first. Only very special women get the latter from me”

    I’ve done that too for both genders. Sometimes a door is just a door. *shrug*

    The idea that one expects some kind of reward for being polite and considerate of others simply baffles me.

  • I would say there is something to the Freudian parent-child bond being the first model we have for love. My husband mentioned it with regard to his mother, and I didn’t find it creepy. I do have a lot of things in common with her. My husband is a very loving man because he received a good model of a loving relationship.

    It is kind of a stereotype for a reason that girls with daddy issues are problematic. I have some, too, but at least when I was younger I had my wonderful grandfather who doted on me, and I don’t have deep resentment or distrust toward men in general. I think the fact that my father was absent was probably better than if I was closer to him and he displayed bad qualities.

  • But there’s also cultural conditioning, where generally, all else being equal, white guys are the highest status, so a lot of non-white girls end up being attracted to white guys even without daddy issues. Plus the hybrid vigor thing, where heterozygous genes mixing makes for healthier kids.

    I wonder how it will be in the next few generations with a lot more interracial kids running around.

  • sassy6519

    I think that people should date who they want to date/marry who they want to marry. Racial preferences are exactly that, preferences. My personal motto is that a hot man is a hot man, regardless of race. I’m pretty open to dating men of all races, but I predominately date white men. “Taste the rainbow” and all that jazz. 😉

  • SayWhaat

    Of the Asian men there is one group that is an exception; the men will marry more interracially than the women, though they’re levels of interracial marriages are the lowest of all races :

    Indians.

    Why is that Saywhaat & PJ ?

    I can only speculate, but off the top of my head the two biggest reasons are 1) preservation of heritage, and 2) inability to assimilate.

    Grand generalization: my observation is that women of every culture are keen to preserve and carry on their community and heritage. That’s simply easier to do with men who belong to the same culture. Conversely, men may feel fewer ties to their culture and are more likely to seek out “variety”.

    With Indians in particular, assimilation is much harder. We have a strong ethnic identity and unlike our East Asian counterparts, we are much less likely to anglicize our names and follow the same religions (e.g. Grace Lee who goes to a Christian church vs. Preeti Prabhakar who goes to temple). So that is already two ways where Indians face difficulty in integrating with the mainstream culture.

    I’m not sure whether what you cited refers to second-generation Indians, immigrants, or Indians as a whole, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. However, I do think that interracial marriages among Indians will definitely increase in the next few years. Many of the girls in my community have married non-Indians, and several of the Indian men have married non-Indians as well (and not necessarily to white people; one guy married a Korean girl, and another married a black girl).

    Since Indians in the U.S. are solidly UMC, I expect we’ll see a lot more Indian interracial marriages in the U.S. than in other countries.

  • Anacaona

    I do have a lot of things in common with her. My husband is a very loving man because he received a good model of a loving relationship.
    My MIL and I also have a lot of things in common also my hubby and my dad are very similar in many ways. I don’t find it creepy but the theory that this bond has anything to do with race is what makes this idea incomplete at best. The cues go beyond race IMO.

  • mr. wavevector

    Public chivalry used to be like the popular dances of the same period. Everyone knew the steps and was willing to join in.

    Now, no one knows the same dance steps and some people kick you in the shin.

    I think public chivalry is dead, and not just because of feminism. It’s also a victim of the increasing diversity and fragmentation of our culture. There aren’t songs that start “Everybody is doin’ a brand new dance, now” anymore.

    And no one can agree about the damn door!

  • Hope,

    But there’s also cultural conditioning, where generally, all else being equal, white guys are the highest status, so a lot of non-white girls end up being attracted to white guys even without daddy issues.

    You’re not afraid to call it as you see it … kudos.

    *******************************************************************

    However, I do think that interracial marriages among Indians will definitely increase in the next few years. Many of the girls in my community have married non-Indians, and several of the Indian men have married non-Indians as well (and not necessarily to white people; one guy married a Korean girl, and another married a black girl).

    Since Indians in the U.S. are solidly UMC, I expect we’ll see a lot more Indian interracial marriages in the U.S. than in other countries.

    I wish you well in this regard. Never give up.

    ********************************************************************

    … and Neecy went berserk about this :

    “The white females whom you describe in your comment are white women who are unfortunate enough to have grown up surrounded by a crude, Negrified culture. Drinking themselves stupid is the only way they can numb their conscience enough to do all the things they think are expected of them in such a degraded culture, precisely because whoring doesn’t come naturally to them and violates their deepest nature. It’s pathetic and sad.”

  • J

    I hold doors open for people, male or female, if they are within 2-4 paces of the door itself. I walk through by myself and don’t hold the door if they are farther away than that.

    Me too. I will also hold doors open for anyone approaching the door with a young child or an awkward package even if they are farther away.

    When I was a new mom, I was amazed at how many men will walk by you while you are struggling to get a stroller through a door and how many women, usually mothers themselves, will go out of their way to help. I’m also amazed at how many men will hold a door for me when I’m attractively dressed and by myself. Seems like all this “chivalry” is motivated not by a desire to “help the weaker sex” as much as it’s motivated by the desire to make contact with someone who might be sexually available.

  • J

    @HereIAm

    However, I actually think the work of David Schnarch is equally important if not more so.

    Just google him. Thanks.

    @Texas Dude

    Sweet story. Thanks for sharing it. That’s how it’s done, kids.

  • J

    Moreover, do married couples actually thank each other for doing the every day routine chores that adults do, and that are, in the context of sharing a home, shared by each other?

    Yes, in good mariages they do. Everyone likes to feel appreciated even if it’s for doing the same old stuff. I serve pasta about twice a week and have done so for the past 25 years. I still like to hear that my homemade sauce is delicious. He still like to hear that the lawn looks good. It takes away some of the drudgery. And, it’s also good to compliment the sex when it’s still good.

    @Susan ans Charlotte re people not changing

    Not only is it true that people will retain the same faults after marriage as they exhibited before marriage, they will even tell you what those faults are if you really listen. People often confess faults beforehand because they fear the new gf or bf will reject them like the last one did. Sometimes, they will frame the confession as a complaint against the ex, as in “She called me an aloof and superior prick! Can you believe it?” or “He said I blew all his money or clothes. What a cheap SOB!” You just have to listen.

    Re the drinks issue–

    I generally advise young woman to buy themselves a soft drink when they first enter a bar or club in order to avoid the “a drink entitles me to sex” mentality from men. If an interesting guy then offers, the girl can politely refuse the drink as she already has one in her hand and still invite the guy to sit and talk with NSA. As to men having women take advantage of them for free drinks, I’m really surprised they don’t see that coming. When I was of club-going age, it was fairly obvious to me who these girls were and what they were after.

  • J

    And, of course, ZOG is there to give them the weapons to turn what would be a minor internecine conflict into a society-destroying war

    The Zionist Occupation Government??

  • No idea J, that site is hardcore.

  • Gin Martini

    Tomato: “The idea that one expects some kind of reward for being polite and considerate of others simply baffles me.”

    The reward should be the same level of politeness and consideration. I would expect not be bitched out like the waitress yesterday, or a given a stony “you-asshole” glare. Let me guess, no one’s ever done such a thing to you, huh? How fortunate.

  • Idli Dosa

    Neutrino, “I still say marriage is not needed for a long term relationship. The post we’re commenting on says “reasons men avoid commitment” but that’s not accurate. It should say “reasons people of both genders have decided that marriage is unnecessary”.”

    I agree. Legal marriage is for the children, not the adults.

    The Mare: “Of the Asian men there is one group that is an exception; the men will marry more interracially than the women, though they’re levels of interracial marriages are the lowest of all races :

    Indians.

    Why is that Saywhaat & PJ ?”

    One Word: CULTURE.

    Not a small percentage of even 2nd gen Indians in the US have either arranged marriages or marriages that heavily influenced by their parents or at least get the blessings of their parents. Inter-generational family bonds are very important to us.

    Another thing is that Indian parents, no matter where they are in the world, expect to live in the same home as one of their adult sons, if not for their entire lives, at least when they retire and get really old. Often Indian parents from India will come for “holiday” to the US and stay in the home with their Indian son and his wife (Indian or not) and never leave! This behavior is not limited just to Indian parents, other Indian relatives have been known to do this. Non-Indians just don’t get it. Quite frankly, Indian wives are getting sick of their in-laws taking over as well, but they are used to it, expect it even.

    When you marry an Indian you are not marrying an individual, you are marrying his or her entire extended family.

    Now that you’ve been warned, proceed with caution. 😉

    “Black women and Asian men are the least likely to marry inter-racially, and almost never with each other; their intermarriage rate is the lowest.”

    Chinese (from China itself) men are going to Africa to find wives now.

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “One of the saddest things I’ve heard as a blogger was when a young woman around 20 told me that she dreams of one day getting approached for a hookup or even booty called. She said that as far as she knew, a guy had never been attracted to her.”

    While I want to I agree, if I put on my let’s-return-female-empathy-for-lonely-men hat, I would say “What makes her think she’s entitled to a booty call?”

    J: “When I was a new mom, I was amazed at how many men will walk by you while you are struggling to get a stroller through a door and how many women, usually mothers themselves, will go out of their way to help. I’m also amazed at how many men will hold a door for me when I’m attractively dressed and by myself.”

    I actually would hold open a door for anyone trying to get through with something bulky. But you clearly demonstrate men should never do it otherwise. Clearly, it’s all just a ruse to get you to drop your panties right on the spot.

    Plus, it’s not like women are nicer to attractive, taller, or more dominant men. Nope! Never happens.

    • @Gin Martini

      While I want to I agree, if I put on my let’s-return-female-empathy-for-lonely-men hat, I would say “What makes her think she’s entitled to a booty call?”

      She doesn’t think she’s entitled at all – she simply understands that is the least investment a man can offer and still pursue a woman. It’s basically saying she’ll accept crumbs – anything at all, even a booty call is better than being invisible.

  • J

    Since Indians in the U.S. are solidly UMC, I expect we’ll see a lot more Indian interracial marriages in the U.S. than in other countries.

    I briefly had an Anglo-Indian BIL with an Oxbridge education. When he and my SIL divcorced, I asked DH if we could keep BIL and ditch SIL. Unfortunately, things did not work that way. I miss him.

    I imagine that the comment quoted above is correct though. My sons have Indian friends who mostly seem to date white girls; that means their sisters won’t be far behind.

  • Sassy6519

    The white females whom you describe in your comment are white women who are unfortunate enough to have grown up surrounded by a crude, Negrified culture. Drinking themselves stupid is the only way they can numb their conscience enough to do all the things they think are expected of them in such a degraded culture, precisely because whoring doesn’t come naturally to them and violates their deepest nature. It’s pathetic and sad.

    I can understand why Neecy “went berserk”. That comment is a doozy.

  • Idli Dosa

    J wrote, “I briefly had an Anglo-Indian BIL with an Oxbridge education. When he and my SIL divcorced, I asked DH if we could keep BIL and ditch SIL. Unfortunately, things did not work that way. I miss him.”

    This is another reason why Indians don’t marry out a lot. Divorce. Divorce is still very much taboo in Indian culture. Indian parents always list that as numero uno in their reasons why they don’t want their kids to ever marry “angrez”, “phoren”, “firangi”, “videsi”, “amreekan”.

  • J

    @Marellus

    Nice site you linked there! Have you ever noticed the correlation between sexual frustration and dyed in the wool bigotry? I’m mean, not just a preference for people who look like one’s self, but real I-hate-everyone-else-bigotry?

    @GM

    I actually would hold open a door for anyone trying to get through with something bulky.

    That’s very nice.

    But you clearly demonstrate men should never do it otherwise. Clearly, it’s all just a ruse to get you to drop your panties right on the spot.
    OK, riddle me this. Me, looking a wreck from desperately hanging on to a toddler while trying to steer a stroller with infant through a door, and no one male gives a damn if the kid runs away from me and gets hit by a car vs. me, 15 years later, nicely dressed, walking with composure, while guys hurry to open a door so I’ll smile at them or say hi.

    Sexual attraction and availablity have nothing to do with that? Really? It’s all altruism? I must look like I need more help walking in high heels than I did with a toddler in tow.

    Opening a door is often a flirtatious gesture. I can appreciate that now, I’m even flattered, but I sure could have used some real help when I was struggling with that stroller.

  • Idly Dosa

    The Mare: “Of the Asian men …

    Mare ??????

    … my beloved little marauder mouse … your moniker really does sound like Idle Doser to me …

  • J

    No idea J, that site is hardcore.

    Just saw this. Indeed, it is.

    @Sassy re Neecy

    I remember Neecy from the Chateau; I think she lowered herself in even replying to that crap. Again, a big part of the nonsense in the post Neecy is reacting to is the imagining that some other group has some sort of monopoly on exotic sex that will lure members of one’s own race to chase after them and not you. Racist literature is full of that stuff: mandigo bucks ready to leap out from the bushes to rape blond virgins, hooked-nosed Jews eager to pollute Aryan blood with their own, hot “negresses” and latinas gyrating to the primitive beat of jungle music, submissive Asian women ready to “love you long time.” Extreme racism and sexual frustration/jealousy tend to be linked.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    Extreme racism and sexual frustration/jealousy tend to be linked.

    I agree. The root is typically envy-fueled competition for potential mates.

  • J,

    Have you ever noticed the correlation between sexual frustration and dyed in the wool bigotry? I’m mean, not just a preference for people who look like one’s self, but real I-hate-everyone-else-bigotry?

    It’s more fundamental than that. All bigotry starts with these words :

    It’s not my fault …

    … and what those words immediately halts, is introspection; the problems are external; the problems are associated with something tangible … something which can be mobilized against …

    … and there are truths in the bigotry … aye … any bigotry must have its truths … but not many … the rest of the invectives composed of emotion … raw emotions …

    … that’s how feminism started; and the manosphere is on the same trajectory …

    Look at the comment threads on any manosphere blog; the best commenters write solipsistically … just like women …

    Why ?

    It’s powerful.

  • J

    It’s more fundamental than that. All bigotry starts with these words :
    It’s not my fault …

    Yep. This, as they, is gold. Once you place the locus of control outside yourself, you’re the victim and nothing is fair.

    … that’s how feminism started; and the manosphere is on the same trajectory …

    Pick any “ism;” it’s all the same shit.

    It’s powerful.

    Which is wonderful….if you feel powerless.

  • J

    “This, as they, is gold.” should read “This, as they say, is gold.”

  • Idli Dosa

    “Racist literature is full of that stuff: mandigo bucks ready to leap out from the bushes to rape blond virgins, hooked-nosed Jews eager to pollute Aryan blood with their own, hot “negresses” and latinas gyrating to the primitive beat of jungle music, submissive Asian women ready to “love you long time.” Extreme racism and sexual frustration/jealousy tend to be linked.”

    I’ve written some exotica erotica of my own back in the day.

    Stereotypes and let downs, all of them. Men being crap in the sack is a global womens’ issue. I’m not even letting the French off the hook here.

  • Liz

    I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK.
    Sounds like a bunch of half-grown boys trying to get attention. Glad I was never one.

  • I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK.

    It’s a remark from a man this is essentially ambiguous. You don’t know whether to take it as a compliment or an insult.

  • Lokland

    @J

    Honest question;

    Why should a man help a woman with kids as opposed to a woman who looks like a possibility?

    The same problem I always encounter with the chivalry debate is women expecting something for nothing.

    @Hope

    “Plus the hybrid vigor thing, where heterozygous genes mixing makes for healthier kids.”

    Genes themselves are not heterozygous (or homozygous).
    A heterozygous carrier is one person carrying two different copies of the same gene. (As opposed to homozygous with two copies that are identical.)

    Technically, two fully homozygous individuals who were not related in any way to one another would produce the highest percentage heterozygote.

    ——-

    On the race thing;

    Kind of a pointless debate as stats are very unlikely to dissuade someone from being attracted to who they are attracted to.

    @J

    “Again, a big part of the nonsense in the post Neecy is reacting to is the imagining that some other group has some sort of monopoly on exotic sex that will lure members of one’s own race to chase after them and not you.”

    There is some basis for this.
    If men and women are approximately equal in the population and one sex is more able to date outside their race than vice versa (ex. asian women/ black men) then it would follow that the other members of that race in the opposite sex would experience a drain in potential mates whereas their counterparts experience a boost.

    From a hatred standpoint its very logical for the underpowered groups to try and stop this from occurring because it will have a very real (though maybe unnoticeable) effect on them.

    Better to nip it in the bud.

    As for the race purism nonsense. Stupid inbred idea.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    My reply was somewhat ambiguous. Hetero/homo-zygous applies to either the individual (or location of the gene in question) and not the individual copies of that gene themselves.

    Small nit pick but now you will be more correct.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Liz:

    I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK. Sounds like a bunch of half-grown boys trying to get attention. Glad I was never one.

    No, they were nearly full-grown (quite good-looking, as I recall), and they were having fun–and so was the blonde, although she pretended otherwise. They were not “trying to get attention”–they were giving her attention of a very effective kind. She was the center of attention. (That’s why I was miserable–I wanted to be the center of attention, but I couldn’t compete with the blonde.)

    Beautiful women are used to fawning compliments from men–so they don’t think much of servile beta guys who fawn over them with compliments. A neg is a gentle teasing of a gorgeous woman that demonstrates that you’re not so impressed by her beauty, and that it’s she who needs to impress you. It’s a demonstration of alpha-ness, of self-confident masculinity. It’s hard to pull off consciously (the negs you read about on PUA sites sound really stupid), but it’s extremely effective.

    To this day I’m fascinated by the fact that everyone in that room knew exactly what was going on–even me, a very innocent 14-year-old.

    As I said above, negs only work on very beautiful women. They come off as insults to the less beautiful. Less beautiful women like to be told how beautiful they are.

  • Idli Dosa

    @J

    Honest question;

    Why should a man help a woman with kids as opposed to a woman who looks like a possibility?

    The same problem I always encounter with the chivalry debate is women expecting something for nothing.
    __________________

    J, I’m not surprised to hear that you and another commenter here receive more help in public from women than men, or so should I say, receive help in public from women and not at all from men, when bustling about with arms full with kids and strollers.

    I’m actually glad to hear it in fact. We should not expect or depend on men for squat. Ever. Fcuk e’m! (I mean not literally of course, but they can go straight to hell. We don’t need them.)

  • Gin Martini

    J: “OK, riddle me this.”

    I was agreeing with you. By not opening a door for any woman at all, then we can solve the problem of treating attractive people better than unattractive people, which happens to men too.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s not my job to be Nice, it’s my job to yell at insurance companies because they owe MY company money.

    If you want me to hold the door open for people, you need to have a social contract where I am also afforded some politeness, too, or you need to pay me for it.

    I am not going to be Nice to the world simply out of the goodness of my heart.

  • Idli Dosa

    “If you want me to hold the door open for people, you need to have a social contract where I am also afforded some politeness, too, or you need to pay me for it.”

    All of the hundreds of times I’ve opened doors for people I’ve always been “afforded some politeness” with a “thankyou”. What more do YOU WANT?!

  • HanSolo

    @Idli Dosa

    We should not expect or depend on men for squat. Ever. Fcuk e’m! (I mean not literally of course, but they can go straight to hell. We don’t need them.)

    Take your misandry elsewhere.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Liz:

    I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK. Sounds like a bunch of half-grown boys trying to get attention. Glad I was never one.

    Actually, they were nearly full-grown, and some were quite good-looking. They weren’t trying to get attention. They were giving attention to the blonde. She was the center of attention, and she was loving it, although she pretended otherwise.

    Gorgeous women are so used to fawning compliments from men that they respond to them with indifference and/or contempt. Negs are a form of gentle teasing that demonstrates to a beautiful woman that the teaser is not so impressed with her beauty and that she needs to impress him, not the other way around. They are a way of demonstrating the masculinity to which women respond.

    Negs only work on beautiful women. Not-so-beautiful women respond to being told how beautiful they are. They perceive negs as insults and get turned off.

    What fascinates me to this day is how aware I was of all the sexual dynamics that were going on in that room–even though I was only 14 and knew scarcely a thing about sex.

    @Idli

    We should not expect or depend on men for squat. Ever. Fcuk e’m! (I mean not literally of course, but they can go straight to hell. We don’t need them.)

    — From Idli Dosa’s Guide to Catching Flies With Vinegar

  • Idli Dosa

    “Gorgeous women are so used to fawning compliments from men that they respond to them with indifference and/or contempt.”

    The Manosphere says ALL WOMEN are fawned over all the time by men and the entire culture.

    “Negs only work on beautiful women. Not-so-beautiful women respond to being told how beautiful they are. They perceive negs as insults and get turned off.”

    I once dated a guy who tried to neg me on more than one occasion. Each neg was met with an increasingly unflattering penis comment. He soon learned to shut his trap.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Liz

    I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK.
    Sounds like a bunch of half-grown boys trying to get attention. Glad I was never one.

    A neg is a comment, typically delivered from a man to a woman, that has a sense of ambiguity to it. The ambiguous nature of the comment allows the woman to draw whatever conclusions she wants from it, but usually the goal is to illicit a slight negative understanding of the comment. Such comments are typically delivered from men to women that they are sexually/physically attracted to. The comment is meant to serve as a way of mildly shaking a woman’s confidence, or making it less forceful. In doing so, the guy knocks a woman off of a perceived confidence “pedestal”, creating a slight sense of doubt, and thereby attempting to place himself in an area of higher standing.

    An example would be “That dress is very yellow”. That statement is very ambiguous. It could either mean that the man likes the brightness of the dress, or the man is negatively critiquing the brightness of the dress. This allows a woman’s mind to wander, draw her own conclusions, and shift how she interacts with the guy in question.

  • I once dated a guy who tried to neg me on more than one occasion. Each neg was met with an increasingly unflattering penis comment. He soon learned to shut his trap.

    You told him your penis was bigger ????

  • Charlotte Allen

    Idli:

    I once dated a guy who tried to neg me on more than one occasion. Each neg was met with an increasingly unflattering penis comment. He soon learned to shut his trap.

    –From Idli Dosa’s Guide to Catching Flies With Vinegar

  • Sassy6519

    Gorgeous women are so used to fawning compliments from men that they respond to them with indifference and/or contempt. Negs are a form of gentle teasing that demonstrates to a beautiful woman that the teaser is not so impressed with her beauty and that she needs to impress him, not the other way around. They are a way of demonstrating the masculinity to which women respond.

    Yes, this. I’ll add this, however.

    It’s not so much that beautiful women become indifferent/contemptuous of being told that they are beautiful. It’s that hearing they are beautiful over and over again strips the word/compliment of it’s own value.

    On the flipside, being negged is a novel experience, so the experience has not lost its luster. Also, it signals that the man in question isn’t completely overwhelmed/intimidated by her beauty, which is somewhat refreshing. Although she may be beautiful, the man has the confidence/willpower to not be blinded by it, and that makes him appear more secure/confident to the beautiful woman.

    I may not always like it if/when a man negs me, but I always end up believing that the guy has a lot of balls.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @Sassy:

    Also, it signals that the man in question isn’t completely overwhelmed/intimidated by her beauty, which is somewhat refreshing. Although she may be beautiful, the man has the confidence/willpower to not be blinded by it, and that makes him appear more secure/confident to the beautiful woman.

    Exactly.

  • Idli Dosa

    “It’s not so much that beautiful women become indifferent/contemptuous of being told that they are beautiful. It’s that hearing they are beautiful over and over again strips the word/compliment of it’s own value.”

    The 9s I know get jaded with the shallowness of men and the world in general pretty early on. They believe, rightly so, that men want to be with them solely for their looks and not for who they are, and that they get free stuff and promotions simply because they look good.

    They have a low level of trust.

  • J

    I’m still not sure what a neg is, but OK.

    At its worst, it’s a remark aimed at lowering a woman’s self-perceived sexual market value, thus making her more likely to accept a man’s advances. At its most benign it’s teasing, the adult equivalent of a boy dipping a girl’s braids in the inkwell, like in a Norman Rockwell painting.

  • J

    @Lokland

    Why should a man help a woman with kids as opposed to a woman who looks like a possibility?

    Altruism? I mean a lot of women helped me in that situation. They had nothing to gain, but they’d BTDT. They emphatized.

    BTW, I wasn’t necessarily arguing that he should as much as addressing the idea that “chivalry” is a product of some sort of male noblesse oblige as opposed to a form of flirtation. I brought up my experience as a mom struggling with a stroller as an example of a person who really does need help being ignored precisely because she is no longer a possiblity.

    From a hatred standpoint its very logical for the underpowered groups to try and stop this from occurring because it will have a very real (though maybe unnoticeable) effect on them.

    True enough, but it’s still uncomfortable for you when Canadian woman slag on your wife, isn’t it. There’s really no place for that stuff.

  • J

    On the flipside, being negged is a novel experience, so the experience has not lost its luster. Also, it signals that the man in question isn’t completely overwhelmed/intimidated by her beauty, which is somewhat refreshing. Although she may be beautiful, the man has the confidence/willpower to not be blinded by it, and that makes him appear more secure/confident to the beautiful woman.

    OTOH, it can also evoke the response of WTF is wrong with this guy? I think a guy has to walk a narrow line here between being sappy and being rude.

    @GM

    By not opening a door for any woman at all, then we can solve the problem of treating attractive people better than unattractive people, which happens to men too.

    Then you run the risk of never helping anyone in need, which is a pity.

  • J

    Negs only work on beautiful women. Not-so-beautiful women respond to being told how beautiful they are. They perceive negs as insults and get turned off.

    That’s interesting, Charlotte. I’d amend that to “Negs only work on women who are very confident in their beauty.” I was an ugly duckling who grew up to be a good looking, though not movie star georgeous, swan. I never tire of compliments, though I don’t quite trust them as I understand that beauty is superficial and ephemeral. I think negs are most effective on women who have been fawned on since birth.

    What fascinates me to this day is how aware I was of all the sexual dynamics that were going on in that room–even though I was only 14 and knew scarcely a thing about sex.

    You seem like a fairly perceptive person.

  • J

    You told him your penis was bigger ????

    LMAO

  • J

    I’m actually glad to hear it in fact. We should not expect or depend on men for squat. Ever. Fcuk e’m! (I mean not literally of course, but they can go straight to hell. We don’t need them.)

    Bad day, Peej?

  • Lokland

    @J

    “Altruism? I mean a lot of women helped me in that situation. They had nothing to gain, but they’d BTDT. They emphasized.”

    I suppose you think this phenomenon is only unidirectional?
    No woman has ever offered to do anything kind for me ever once in my life for any reason.
    I can count multiple times men have given me a break (especially as a student with $0).

    Women really don’t want to offer men kindness. Ditto for men and kindness directed towards women.

    Also, altruism can only exist between relatives it is unfit if directed towards those outside the family and will be removed from the population by natural selection.

    “True enough, but it’s still uncomfortable for you when Canadian woman slag on your wife, isn’t it.”

    Yes in much the same way the hobo telling me I’m a horrible person for not also being a hobo is uncomfortable. Which is to the extent it takes to remove me from their potential crazy path.

    “There’s really no place for that stuff.”

    Notice that the logical endpoint of one sex being able to outbreed while the other does not is the eventual extinction of that race because all members of one sex were unable to pass on their genes.

    Sounds wonderful if you are on the winning side but utterly horrid if you are one of the people who has to die because no one wants to fuck you.

  • mr. wavevector

    Why should a man help a woman with kids as opposed to a woman who looks like a possibility?

    Altruism? I mean a lot of women helped me in that situation. They had nothing to gain, but they’d BTDT. They emphatized.

    They don’t have to worry about getting verbally assaulted by a feminist harridan either.

    I recently helped a woman in such a situation, and I kid you not, I was readying myself and preparing my retort against that sort of attack as I approached her.

    Was my caution warranted? I mean, how often does a man get verbally abused for trying to help a woman? Probably not very often. But those types of attacks are distressing enough that if you’ve experienced one, you are loathe to repeat it.

  • HanSolo

    Feminists killed chivalry. If you want some aspects of it restored then take it up with them.

  • Charlotte Allen

    @J:

    I’d amend that to “Negs only work on women who are very confident in their beauty.” I was an ugly duckling who grew up to be a good looking, though not movie star georgeous, swan. I never tire of compliments, though I don’t quite trust them as I understand that beauty is superficial and ephemeral. I think negs are most effective on women who have been fawned on since birth.

    That’s interesting. I’m an ugly duckling (although I was a runner-up in a Beautiful Baby contest–when I was 2!) who grew up to be not quite a swan, although I’ve got a slender figure and cheekbones that make me look good for my age. I’m thus a sucker for compliments. Tell me I’m beautiful, and I’ll walk a couple of miles on hot coals. If someone tried to neg me (“You have such cute beady eyes”) I’d look at him like “Huh–what’s your problem?”

  • Idli Dosa

    “I mean, how often does a man get verbally abused for trying to help a woman? Probably not very often. ”

    Not often at all. The men here are talking out of their asses.

  • The decline in chivalry, more generally in politeness, cannot be laid entirely at the door of feminism. In general, more urban/anonymous cultures will over time become less polite than those where people know each other and word of your rudeness or politeness is likely to get around to people who matter to you.

    I notice that when I drive with my convertible top down, other drivers are much more courteous about letting me change lanes, etc than when I drive with it up and hence am a car rather than a person.

  • Man

    Was my caution warranted? I mean, how often does a man get verbally abused for trying to help a woman? Probably not very often.

    I think it’s not about that. I also help women whom I perceive to be educated and feminine, the classical one, and also old ladies, pregnant and honest women. But then if she is just another modern, “strong” and “independent” who doesn’t care about men, why should we?

    The men here are talking out of their asses.

    I think they are talking instead with their little heads. It’s a slight difference, but very important one.

  • Tomato

    “The reward should be the same level of politeness and consideration. I would expect not be bitched out like the waitress yesterday, or a given a stony “you-asshole” glare. Let me guess, no one’s ever done such a thing to you, huh? How fortunate.”

    If they did behave that way to me, that’s their problem. I’m not going to stop being courteous to others because I occasionally encounter jerks. Dismissing the entire human race because of the poor actions of a few leads to anger and isolation. Each interaction with a human becomes nothing more than a cold, selfish calculation of cost and benefit. No thanks.

  • Plain Jain

    “I think it’s not about that. I also help women whom I perceive to be educated and feminine, the classical one, and also old ladies, pregnant and honest women. But then if she is just another modern, “strong” and “independent” who doesn’t care about men, why should we?”

    How do you tell the difference between a “modern, strong & independent” woman from the “classical one” in public and thus who to open a door for or help?

    “The men here are talking out of their asses.”

    “I think they are talking instead with their little heads. It’s a slight difference, but very important one.”

    Same general area. Plus you guys are into beads and prostate massage and all sorts of things down there nowadays.

  • Plain Jain

    “Dismissing the entire human race because of the poor actions of a few leads to anger and isolation. Each interaction with a human becomes nothing more than a cold, selfish calculation of cost and benefit. ”

    You just describe the Manosphere in a nut shell.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    I think the best reply when a sharp remark is returned for a chivalrous gesture is “Have a nice day.”

  • Man

    How do you tell the difference between a “modern, strong & independent” woman from the “classical one” in public and thus who to open a door for or help?

    It’s easy sweetie and I will explain. Don’t get offended. Classical and feminine women often have a smile on face, they don’t dress like a whore and we can easily tell the difference here, they usually have longer hair (and so they don’t look like a man), they are not so full of themselves to the point of being arrogant and ignoring our existence. We love women’s attention. So when we get some of women’s attention we usually get chivalrous and reciprocate. That’s how we are geared. We also have a kind of male sixth sense which make us “feel” and “detect” feminine qualities, almost unconsciously. I don’t know how it works. But, for instance, I can sense this femininity in actress Jennifer Connelly, amongst others, such as Susan too. 😉 I think it’s mostly about receptiveness to males. We’re soooo vulnerable and we always keep a kind of unconscious link with the feminine essence through our lovely mothers.

    But then, there are so “strong” and “independent” (masculinized?) women out there that most of us cannot tell the difference. And as we are actually invisible and even sort of nonexistent to most “modern” women, in doubt we immediately assume she’s “strong”, “independent”, unless she give us some kind of attention. It can be a glance, a smile, some gratitude… You know better than me as you have the spark of the divine feminine inside you and I don’t. I’m a man and I only respond accordingly.

  • Charlotte Allen

    Dinkney:

    I think the best reply when a sharp remark is returned for a chivalrous gesture is “Have a nice day.”

    Yes, I always use “You have a nice day, too” as my “ta-ta!” response when I receive insulting or obscene e-mails from readers.

  • Tomato

    “You just describe the Manosphere in a nut shell.”

    You noticed that too, eh?

  • Dinkney Pawson

    When I moved into my first apartment after college I went out of my way lend a hand to my neighbors. I did not expect a direct return. I was establishing my bona fides. I did expect that word would get around. I figured I would get introductions.

    Looking back I think most of my neighbors were either as awkward as I or reading from a different script. This was in the early ’80s in Maryland Heights, MO.

  • BuenaVista

    This chivalry stuff is being way over-thought, imo. It’s just kindness and respect: the equivalent of letting someone, in a traffic jam, move over a lane in front of you. If you can’t allow that to happen, without feeling like you have compromised your manhood or your prog radical feminism, you are a small person. If you are a woman, and you can’t imagine opening a door for a man with his hands full, because you are womyn, not a woman, same deal. (I will say, fwiw, that the number of times I have had a woman do something like that for me in my life is less than I practice in a single day in New York.) Have a nice life, I’m moving on from you, you do not exist. This concern by womyn about chivalry creates a kind of socio-sexual road rage. If they want to live in that state, well, go to it. I’m moving on from them.

    I think good manners are a social marker, an indication of a desire for a little social order and elegance in the public sphere, and I value good manners (as I do good grammar) in men and women. For men who want to be with women, as this blog noted last year, social prestige is a very useful attribute when interacting with an object of desire. There is no social prestige accruing to rude and unpleasant men and women. Zero. Hostility is childish. The womyn who spit on the kind public gesture by a man disappear from my mind about as rapidly as the panhandler with phony ‘broken leg.’ Who cares, it’s a comment on them, not me, that they refuse the seat I offer on the subway.

    I think guys just need to decide if they would rather appear to be Don Draper or Sean Penn (after Penn has been up for a few days drinking, smoking and swearing, which appears to have a profoundly different effect on him than it does our hero Don Draper). I think women who think it is terrible that a man would help her with her coat and walk on the streetside are straining after umbrage. I haven’t dated a self-described anti-feminist in, well, I can’t remember not dating one. They’re all feminists if you ask them. (Most of the time I have no idea what they mean by that, but I do know there are certain topics that one should just never, ever attempt to discuss.) And they love it when I wait for them to pick up their forks before I pick up mine. It might amuse them and remind them of their Emily Post lessons as a child, but they won’t be afraid to introduce me to their friends, and to do so with a smile. It’s not putting someone on a pedestal to be Don Draper instead of Sean Penn. I also press my shirts and brush my teeth before going out — because I don’t want to look like a bum. That’s about the level of thought that I put into offering manners in the public sphere.

  • mr. wavevector

    This chivalry stuff is being way over-thought, imo. It’s just kindness and respect: the equivalent of letting someone, in a traffic jam, move over a lane in front of you.

    Sure it is. The challenge for me isn’t doing those acts of kindness and respect, which I do – it’s preparing mentally for a hostile response while doing so.

    In your example, if I let someone enter the lane in front of me and they flip me the bird in response, I would find that upsetting. I can tell myself “who cares” but I’m still going to feel the rage. My emotional control isn’t good enough to stop that. However, if I prepare myself ahead of time by saying “this city is full of Massholes” (yes I used to live in Boston), then the offending gesture will affect me much less.

    It’s the same when I offer to help a female stranger with something. It’s a split emotional act – the positive emotion of helpfulness and concern, and the negative emotion of preparing for a hostile or rude response.

    I think the best reply when a sharp remark is returned for a chivalrous gesture is “Have a nice day.”

    I like it! It’s a good way to twist the negative into a positive. That’s going to be my go-to asshole defense from now on.

  • Gin Martini

    J: “Then you run the risk of never helping anyone in need, which is a pity.”

    Nah, didn’t mean it that way. I meant, I’m not going to go out of my way to hold open a door for a woman, and stand there waiting for her to go through, when she’s capable of doing it herself. I said earlier I hold doors open all the time for people who are moving equipment, or injured.

    PJ: “Not often at all. The men here are talking out of their asses.”

    Bull, the story about the waitress just happened on Friday.

    Tom: “If they did behave that way to me, that’s their problem. I’m not going to stop being courteous to others because I occasionally encounter jerks. Dismissing the entire human race because of the poor actions of a few leads to anger and isolation. Each interaction with a human becomes nothing more than a cold, selfish calculation of cost and benefit. No thanks.”

    You both are reading too much. I’m still courteous to people. I just won’t go out of my way to make a sweeping gesture.

    One of my friends on facebook tittered with delight, telling of an old man who ran through a parking lot to open her car door for her. (Which she’s perfectly capable of doing.) She’s from the South.

    As a counterexample, another friend had a *uniformed* park ranger follow her in park, jogging to catch up with her. She was walking her dog, and the officer wanted to tell her no dogs were allowed. She then, no shit, bitched him out because “she thought he was a rapist”. That’s more like what it’s like here.

  • Man

    You both are right about chivalry being about good manners and education. I also expect good manners and kindness from women. I do not get much on a daily basis and I am kind of invisible to most of them just like other men. But I am not complaining so much about it. I know I cannot demand love or attention from a woman. She either respects and love me or not. That’s how it is. And perhaps I might do something to catch her attention or demonstrate my interest in having a relationship with her and she might accept it or not. It’s very simple.

    But for 21st century women it’s not like that. They are “entitled” to be loved, admired, served and be given free gifts, dinners, lunches, a house, two babysitters, one housekeeper, a luxury car, expensive leisure travels, bad boy sex, nice guy romantic attention, daddy and provider attention for the children, freedom, full male compliance and apologies (for things they aren’t even guilty of), chivalry, right of abortion… (have I missed something?). See: I am not saying they are not entitled to wish these things. They can wish whatever they want, of course.

    The heart of the issue is about entitlement as Susan puts it. I will point out to articles which sort come in handy to what is being discussed:
    Ditch The Rules
    Are Feminists Finally Noticing That the Men Have Left the Building?
    20 Identifiable Traits of a Female Narcissist

    That said, I wish to tone down my criticism of feminazis here because I feel that there are not many of them in this blog. But I really find amazing how difficult it’s for women to grasp very simple concepts about men’s needs, feelings and way of thinking. It just makes me wonder how many women are actually willing to put effort proposed in this article to The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands. 🙂 And if so, which are the “rules” or “conditions” for the lucky man?

    @Susan: I have just decided to elevate your relative average modern female emotional intelligence quotient index to approximately 10000 (no pun intended). Take care.

  • SayWhaat

    Sure it is. The challenge for me isn’t doing those acts of kindness and respect, which I do – it’s preparing mentally for a hostile response while doing so.

    I’m getting more and more convinced that this is a regional thing, if not a generational one. Women my age don’t fuss about holding the door open for others, and some of my (male) co-workers even make a small game out of it (“I gotta hold open the door for you first! Aww, damn. You beat me to it”). My friend’s boyfriend never sits down on a subway, even when there are seats available, because someone else who is pregnant/old might come in and need it.

    I’ve seen men and women alike help mothers hoist their strollers up subway steps, give up their seats for elderly people, and assist pregnant women. I’ve done all of the above myself. Maybe what you guys are describing here is a Masshole thing, maybe not. I have yet to encounter it in my own life.

  • BuenaVista

    Mr. Wavevector, anyone who flips you off for being decent is in hell. That’s how you rationalize not caring. That’s how you ignore it. That person doing the flipping is in hell already, literally (see CS Lewis, The Great Divorce) if you are a Christian, metaphorically if not. A key attribute of hell, to Lewis, is that none of the inhabitants realize they were in hell. This opened the door to some compassion for, and some intellectual and emotional distance from, the people who have tried to make a hell of my life; they just want company, I say.

    This is one of the realities that Feminism has delivered: more people walk through life in hell. And no, I’m not talking about the guys alone.

  • mr. wavevector

    PJ: “Not often at all. The men here are talking out of their asses.”

    Oh, the irony of PJ. While she dismisses male concerns, nearly every recent post from her exemplifies the demented feminist belligerence that we are talking about.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    I’m getting more and more convinced that this is a regional thing, if not a generational one.

    Definitely. Some regions like the urban Northeast are more rude to begin with. And the younger radfems don’t seem as keen on public confrontation as their mothers were – they can vent their misandry on Tumblr now.

  • mr. wavevector

    @BuenaVista,

    Mr. Wavevector, anyone who flips you off for being decent is in hell. That’s how you rationalize not caring.

    Sure. The challenge for me though is not how to deal with it afterwards, but being prepared for the right response in the moment.

    I was speculating on another thread that this type of feminist belligerence is like a societal shit test. The intention of these hostile attacks in response to chivalry is to disrupt a social order that radfems believe subjugates women. Like terrorism, such attacks don’t have to occur often to be destructive. The fact that we are discussing them here is proof of that.

    As in personal level shit tests, there is a variety of male responses to these societal shit tests, most of which fail:

    1) Cowed submission. The man who is attacked is silenced or forced to apologize. Several of the stories here illustrated that, including Gin Martini’s story of the old man and the waitress.

    2) Defensive withdrawal: The man disengages and assumes a defensive posture. These men who won’t engage with women for fear of hostile reactions. The attitude “You wanted equality, now you have it” exemplifies this response.

    3) Angry counterattack: This man isn’t taking it any more and is going to pay back feminist insults with interest. AVoiceForMen.com is a good example of this response.

    4) BMD (benevolent masculine dominance): A man in this state is so secure in his status that he can dismiss the feminist attack as inconsequential. He responds to insults with displays of higher value. In maintaining his frame of strength, kindness and respect, he also demonstrates that a good man is a better option for women than an angry feminist.

    My own evolution has been through these stages. I only reached stage 3 last year when a feminist neighbor jumped down my throat over some innocuous remark I made at a party. That was the moment I decided I wasn’t taking that shit anymore. I counterattacked and verbally demolished her. My response wasn’t pretty though. I went into full fight mode – loud voice, lowered pitch, big aggressive gestures, heart pounding, face flushing. I shut down that feminist, but scared the shit out of all the other women! Including my wife. I probably won’t be invited back there again. Fortunately I’ve just recently realized that there is a better answer.

    Each of these four levels of response is preferable to the proceeding. It is better to withdraw than submit, to fight back than withdraw. But it is best of all to win without fighting. That’s what BMD is about.

  • Man

    My response wasn’t pretty though. I went into full fight mode – loud voice, lowered pitch, big aggressive gestures, heart pounding, face flushing. I shut down that feminist, but scared the shit out of all the other women! Including my wife.

    That’s funny. Have you lost your wife then? I usually choose the option depending on whom I am dealing with and where I am (workplace, home, etc.). For example, in my workplace I just have to withdraw and stay silent, because we are under the dictatorship of the politically correct, feminist/gay movement, etc. But then if I am in safe place and I suspect I am dealing with a narcissistic feminist, I like to break her down by enticing hysterical reactions from her part, while keeping my composure and calm.

    With regard to shit tests, I think that the more emotional unstable and unreliable a woman is, the more she will apply them. So I tend to evaluate which test is being made and if I am going to be indifferent or not, and apply count limits.

    The problem, of course, is that in the end there are few “marriage” material out there, because all women are, say, somewhat “contaminated” with feminism. I also tend to scare the hell out of most of them with my reactions and I have to practice containment.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sometimes you can strike back in a way that may make a difference, as well as make you feel good.
    Ex:
    I was on the Lake Michigan beach doing some civil engineering, aka picking up trash. Three women stopped to chat. Two were early high school, afaict. One was about forty or a bit older. I asked the girls where they went to school and they mentioned a charter or a magnet school or something. Discussed that. So I asked where you go for a football game.
    Their response was a sneering, “Oh, you can to to Central if you want THAT!”
    That was too much contempt for one’s age mates to be natural for the age group and I figured who’d carefully taught them was the older woman.
    I let it go and we talked of some other thiungs.
    The woman said, “You’re really smart, for a man.”
    Me, “Naw, c’mon.”
    Her. “No, really, you know a lot, for a man.”
    Just then, three A10 Warthogs went jazzing by, not out far nor up high. I turned to look, putting my back to the women. The older one said in tones of sneering, hateful conempt, “Your tax dollars at work.”
    Sometimes God blesses me.
    I turned with a dumb smile, not acknowledging her smearing of an instititution I respect. “Isn’t that great? The more of those I have working for me, the better I like it.”
    Looks at me in horror.
    “You were in the Air Force?”
    [The Hog is a close support aircraft. If it’s working for me, the target’s on the ground and so I must be on the ground. Where do they GET these people.}
    But I smiled even more broadly and simplemindedly and said, “No. Infantry.”
    Bent down to shovel up a couple of bottles or something, looked up and the trio were thirty yards away and still picking up speed.
    Wished I’d been there to hear the stereotype repair job.
    But I think of that when I think of feminism. And I laugh.

  • Man

    It is better to withdraw than submit, to fight back than withdraw. But it is best of all to win without fighting. That’s what BMD is about.

    Just complementing my previous comment, I think that in general feminists are narcissistic, contemptuous/coward people and, to some degree, even sociopaths. So I think that every man on Earth should do mankind a favor and: 1) Never apologize for bad things you didn’t make; 2) Never accept shaming behavior and reprove harshly infantile and irresponsible shit tests; 3) Never apologize for being a man, after all men built civilization and almost everything you see around you and women and children always had the less risky tasks, jobs and protection; 4) Never allow a woman raise her voice on you if you did not make anything wrong (demand respect); 5) Never allow feminists act as irresponsible children (they have to be accountable for their choices and acts and act as “independent” and “strong” and “intelligent” women as they claim to be); 6) You are the man, you are the light of reason. Always follow your reason and high sense of justice, order and morals. 🙂

  • I really don’t get why you Americans are going bonkers on chivalry/manners. Here is an admittedly rightwing South African’s impressions of America while on a trip there :

    Portland airport is nice and clean and new… (yes, Johannesburg airport is now that way as well… yes)… but outside on the streets things were the same. The cars were all new and good looking (yes, that’s like in South Africa too), but the PAVEMENTS were clean too… and that is NOT like South Africa. I looked around and soaked things up, and I really liked what I saw.

    The more we drove around Portland, the more I liked the place. I liked virtually everything I saw. During my entire trip in the USA, I never stopped enjoying the way Americans paint their houses. They often paint them in 2 colours rather than one as we do. Each house is well painted and all the different colour schemes make each little town cute in its own way.

    To me, the combination of paint (which either lasts very well or is new) combined with the fact that you don’t see plastic papers or tin cans or rubbish on the streets ANYWHERE… just makes most American towns delightful. Furthermore, the roads are well painted with clear yellow and white stripes. It is not like in South Africa where you can drive down a road and you have to guess where the centre line or other signs are. I never once, in 4 states, saw lines that were faded. Their road signs are all very clear and very easy to see.

    Just those few simple things make their towns and cities utterly delightful.

    http://www.africancrisis.org/Article.php?ID=85303&amp;

    I found most of the people to be friendly. One girl working at a service station told me that she has a 2 year old and she lost her job elsewhere earlier this year due to the recession. Everyone was helpful.

    I was surprised when, on one occasion in a small town, when I tried to find someone, I spotted a young woman getting into her car in a dark parking lot. So I ran to her to ask for help. But I expected her to be freaked out by this strange man running to her car in the dark and perhaps refusing to wind down her window. Instead, she wound her window down and was extremely pleasant and tried her best to be helpful.

    At one point in what appeared to be a fork in the road, late at night, I stopped the car and walked into no-man’s land in the middle of the road. A car approached and without me waving it down, it came to me and stopped. A Chinese couple were inside and the woman asked if she could help me. I told her I was trying to figure out which road to take and she was helpful and pleasant.

    Jeff Nyquist says that the friendliest people in the USA are in Texas and Minnesota. He says that in Texas they’ll even try to take you home and feed you!!! They apparently pride themselves on their hospitality. He mentioned that the coldest people are on the East Coast – in the north – I can’t remember which state he mentioned.

    I got to Jeff Nyquist very late at night. He rents out one of the rooms in his house, and I woke up at 7am to the sound of someone barfing his lungs out – this continued on for 2 hours! It seems the fellow wasn’t having a hangover. Apparently he seems to have a way of regularly getting food poisoning due to his own personal habits! It all mystified Jeff and his brother because the two of them are very clean people.

    http://www.africancrisis.org/Article.php?ID=84241&amp;

  • (Continued)

    In Australia, a friend tells me, they have a TV program that mocks common Americans. They interview Americans on the street and ask them general knowledge questions and people hoot at how stupid the Americans are because they don’t know the answers to those questions. We like to think we have “general knowledge about the world”. Where is South Africa? As one person in the USA joked to me, few would know. They might reply: “Oh isn’t that close to South Carolina?” And we’d laugh and say how “dumb” they are about their geographical knowedge outside their country.

    Well… I have some comments about this later… because I think I know what the answer to this is, and I think it is actually quite unfair to them. They could come to us and ask us about Africa: “What is the capital of Gabon?” We live in Africa… how many of us know the answer to even that? Part of the answer really is: Gabon? Of what importance is the whole country of Gabon? Actually, it is of almost ZERO importance in terms of world affairs… so who cares what its captial is. Chances are, its just another corrupt, backward, going-nowhere, black African state… just another loser states of 54 African states! Hmmm… 54 countries in Africa? That’s almost as much as the number of states in the USA. Ask an American about North Carolina or Idaho… he probably knows more about those states than you and I do about Kenya and Tanzania. But I have more comments about Americans and their “stupidity” regarding the rest of the world.

    http://www.africancrisis.org/Article.php?ID=86045&amp;

    In Africa, in the early 1900s, whites put fully blown ships on the Great Lakes of Africa and during WWI there were SEA BATTLES between the British and Germans on the Great Lakes of Africa. Now the lakes and rivers of Africa have little going on them, except some fishing and some unsafe, overloaded ferry boats. Its such a waste. There is an enormous untapped potential in Africa for water traffic and for ships to sail deep inland into Africa. If people ever built a system of locks you could probably sail ships deep into the interior of Africa to pick up minerals or farm produce (if people in Africa ever decided to farm again). Africa is the Garden of Eden, but instead it is a rotting dump with no progress.

    Look to America… and see what those people did. Here’s the joke: The Americans reached the West coast of the USA and “colonised it” at about the same time as the Boers reached the Transvaal and Free State and colonised it and created Bloemfontein, Pretoria and Johannesburg. All the places I went along the West coast were built in the same time span as whites have been in the hinterland of South Africa. Go there… and see what the White Americans did… and sit and cry… because that could have been the future of southern Africa. We could have built cities like Portland, Los Angeles, Sacramento… if we had had the brains and sanity. But we probably never will.

    http://www.africancrisis.org/Article.php?ID=86128&amp;

  • @Marellus

    I really don’t get why you Americans are going bonkers on chivalry/manners.

    Please don’t mistake HUS for a representative microcosm of traditional Americana. It’s more akin to Peyton Place than any community IRL. 😕

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wavevector

    Both feminism and raunch culture are intricately intertwined with hypergamy. Raunch culture turns women into what many of the apex alphas want, namely sexy sluts that will get down with them. Feminism encourages women to fuck like men which furthers the aim of both the apex alpha (or just any male that’s 1-3 pts higher in value and is looking for casual) and the hypergamous female (not all women are hypergamous though I think maybe 1/2 are significantly so in their 20’s when at their peak looks). Some hypergamous females get deluded by the casual-sex attention into thinking they can get that same level of man for commitment.

    Feminism also contributes to a hypergamous/unrestricted environment by encouraging women to put off looking for a partner (and that usually means someone at their level) in their 20’s and so they will be more inclined to go for the best short-term bf or fling they can find.

    Feminism has produced many safety nets and economic opportunities (on top of the underlying technological changes which have enabled women to be safe and financially and reproductively independent). This frees women from needing a personal provider/protector (gov’t is there) as much and so they can try to be more picky. Certainly they can be picky in finding casual and short-term sex but the math makes it impossible to find a long-term, faithful higher-value mate–there just aren’t enough to go around. And this leads to frustration for most of the women that happen to be hypergamous.

    Society-wide, the feminist shit-test that men face partially serves as a filter to divide the wheat from the chaff. Most men are chaff in women’s eyes though what many women deem wheat might be questionable.

    However, it’s a much freer sexual market than before and instead of going for their assortive mate, many overrate their own marriage value and want someone better. A few pump and dumps along the way make many women wake up to the fact of their heightened ability to get sex but not commitment. Others can’t put 2 and 2 together and continue in the same loop. But the supply response to creating more high-status/charisma males is limited.

    It is fascinating how much of society can be understood by evopsych and the simple concept that when the beta provider/protector is not needed that women will start engaging more and more in casual sex with males of higher status that she can’t get to commit. The evopsych explanation is that she is free to go for what she subconsciously perceives as better genes.

  • Travis

    “When I was a young whoredog, and discovered this fact, I’d skip the flirting, and just ask a girl, “So, tell me about your Dad…” The more vitriol or disdain that produced, the more surely she’d cooperate with her own long-term degradation for short-term fun; that is, the quicker her knickers would hit the floor.”

    Funny. I just read an interview on Reddit with a guy who shoots porn. Nothing erotic. He was talking about the reality of the business as opposed to the fantasy. If you never want to be aroused by porn again, reading that interview would be a good start. Anyway, one guy asked, “What, in your opinion, is the biggest reason these girls end up in the business?”
    His answer was “No doubt about it. Ninety percent of the girls who do porn grew up without a father in their life. Nearly every single girl I’ve ever talked to in almost twenty years in the business had daddy issues. People think all these girls must have been molested or addicted to drugs, but it always comes back to not having a father in their life.”

  • Megaman,

    Please don’t mistake HUS for a representative microcosm of traditional Americana. It’s more akin to Peyton Place than any community IRL. 😕

    Peyton Place ? In which state is that ?

  • Travis

    “Charlotte, why would I want to catch a man who expects sex as a reward for opening a door? Men like “MAN” above do not expect congruent rewards for their behaviour. The congruent reward for opening a door is a “thankyou” – not a date, not a kiss, and certainly not sex. A THANKYOU.”

    I agree. The problem is that so few women actually say “thank you”. I don’t know how many times I’ve held a door for a woman and she’s just walked right past without even acknowledging the gesture. Although to be fair, I think this is more of a problem with society and a loss of manners and decency than it is with women.

  • Travis, #422

    Do you have a link for that Reddit thingy ?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man,

    That’s funny. Have you lost your wife then?

    No, far from it. I don’t think my display of anger hurt the relationship at all (it wasn’t directed at her or even someone she likes, after all). If anything it was a positive. She got to see that she married to a man who can not be bullied by an unpleasant woman. We make jokes about it now. I’m quite pleased with that incident in retrospect. It wasn’t the optimum response but it was a step in the right direction.

    But then if I am in safe place and I suspect I am dealing with a narcissistic feminist, I like to break her down by enticing hysterical reactions from her part, while keeping my composure and calm.

    Yes, that’s the desired response. Easier said than done, at least for me. I have trouble with the composure and calm part. I don’t have regular experience dealing with adversarial relationships (which is a good thing really) so have little practice in maintaining cool under fire.

    @ Richard Aubrey,

    The woman said, “You’re really smart, for a man.”

    That’s what I’m talking about. I am not taking that shit ever again. I may keep my composure and calm, as Man said, or I may not, but anyone who says something like that in my presence is going to hear about it.

    A10’s rock. I’ve never been in combat but I’ve seen them in live fire exercises, and I would very much not want to be on the wrong end of that weapon.

  • @Marellus

    Peyton Place? In which state is that?

    Hah! Not quite:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Place_(novel)

    Definitely worth a read. It holds up incredibly well, even after all these decades. Just read the first paragraph of the plot description unless you don’t mind spoilers.

    BTW, I’ve got Byleveld on my reading list. Most impressive career. From what I’ve been able to gather, he’s in an elite club along with guys like François Vidocq.

  • HereIAm

    @J
    The two main books of David Schnarch are Passionate Marriage and Intimacy and Desire and from my perspective would read them in that order. The first book, PM, is a little harder to read and depending on your psychology background and where you are in life may not be as accessible as the second book but I think it is the more important book and the book that establishes his credibility better. In the second book, IaD, he tried to make what he was talking about more accessible and so, in my opinion, waters things down a bit and tries to use a lot more catch phrases. So if you read PM and struggle you may want to try IaD and then go back to PM after. This is in contrast to Gottman’s books which I find entirely straightforward and accessible.

  • Travis

    “The white females whom you describe in your comment are white women who are unfortunate enough to have grown up surrounded by a crude, Negrified culture. Drinking themselves stupid is the only way they can numb their conscience enough to do all the things they think are expected of them in such a degraded culture, precisely because whoring doesn’t come naturally to them and violates their deepest nature. It’s pathetic and sad.”

    To be fair, the guy was commenting on a video someone posted of a girl doing what’s called a “booty clap” or “pu**y pop”. Basically the girl (usually in a pair of thong panties or tiny booty shorts) bends over, sticks her ass right up in front of the camera and claps her buttcheeks (and I mean literally clap) along with the beat of some (typically degrading) hip hop about “bitches and hoes”, “sharing with the homies”, “pimping bitches out”, etc. . He definitely could have said it in a little more PC way, but his basic point was correct. It’s not empowering. It’s women degrading and debasing themselves for male attention. And there are literally thousands of those videos on Youtube. It’s sad and pathetic when white girls do it, and it’s sad and pathetic when black girls do it. And as un-PC as this is, it’s directly linked to black hip hop culture.
    The one thing in his comment I will disagree with is the implication that “whoring” comes naturally to black women or that white women’s nature is somehow more “pure” in comparison with any other race of women.
    But the basic point that hip hop/rap culture has made that type of behavior acceptable or something for young girls to emulate is valid.

  • Travis

    @Marellus,
    Sorry, I don’t. It was one of those things where I was just following links to see where they’d lead me. And I ended up there. I read it and forgot about it until I saw the comment above.

  • HanSolo

    @Travis

    Interesting stuff. And why do they have to slut themselves out? In part, to get sexual attention from the guy who is 1-3 pts higher who wouldn’t even consider her if there wasn’t a potential lay involved. Raunch culture is a tool for women to get the higher-up males they couldn’t get otherwise–however, in most cases they can only get sex, with a few exceptions here and there.

  • Megaman,

    Ahhh, I see. Thanks for putting Byleveld on your reading list. Perhaps you’ll enjoy this as well

    @Travis,

    No worries …

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mr. Wavevector.
    It was a bit of a lie. The Hog was after my time. But, stone ignorant as she was, I didn’t figure she could put my apparent age together with the weapon system.
    OTOH, I may look ten or fifteen years younger than my calendar age.
    Yeah, that’s it.

  • mr. wavevector

    @HanSolo,

    (not all women are hypergamous though I think maybe 1/2 are significantly so in their 20′s when at their peak looks)

    I think most, possibly nearly all women are hypergamous, but only mildly so. That’s why the first age of marriage for men remains 2-3 years above that of women. Most women seem to like men a little bit above them in age/wealth/education/intelligence, but not a lot. Much of what you say I agree with, but if most women are only mildly hypergamous, then the effects on society will also be mild.

    Feminism has produced many safety nets and economic opportunities (on top of the underlying technological changes which have enabled women to be safe and financially and reproductively independent).

    This is true, but much of it is a good thing. I think equality of opportunity for women is certainly desirable, and the technological and economic changes that underlie it are too. The challenge becomes how do we keep a stable society in which both the female and male reproductive imperatives are largely satisfied when women have this much choice? I’m not sure, but I suspect it requires men to display higher value than than they have historically been accustomed to to secure a mate. And one of the things that we need to do to achieve that higher value is to oppose those forces in society that are set on tearing us down.

  • mr. wavevector

    The Hog was after my time.

    So you were talking about the P-47 Thunderbolt then? 😉

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wavevector

    Yes, opposing the forces that tear down men is an important part to elevate male value, both its absolute value and its perception to women.

    The challenge becomes how do we keep a stable society in which both the female and male reproductive imperatives are largely satisfied when women have this much choice?

    On the individual level, men need to get the right frame, game and achieve whatever career and life goals they have.

    On the collective level, removing the misandry and excessive feminism in schools, laws and culture will be an important endeavour. Since there is so much cultural acceptance that men are the privileged class and women the victims, it will take some time to shift the perception to a more balanced level.

    The fascinating and speculative thing to think about is what things will be like in 50, 100 or 500 years. The radfems have a short window in which to gloat about how technology and culture has made men “unnecessary” but further inventions will likely make women similarly “unnecessary” further down the road, as humanity transforms itself more and more in the dance of inventing technology and being reinvented by that very same technology.

  • By far the majority of single women I speak to would give up a high-flying career in a flash in exchange for life with a good man.

    Once you’ve sat on that proverbial shelf for a while, the relationships that many such women left behind in their 20s seem, in retrospect, like a golden era in their life.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024317/Forget-tosh-freemales–single-women-say-happy-lying.html#addComment

    Virtual girlfriends became a sensation last summer, when Japanese game-maker Konami released its second-generation of its popular Love Plus, called, aptly, Love Plus +, for the Nintendo DS gaming system. Konami skillfully arranged for an otherwise deadbeat beach resort town called Atami to host a Love Plus + holiday weekend. Players were invited to tote their virtual girlfriends, via the gaming console, to the actual resort town to cavort for a weekend in romantic bliss. The promotion was absurdly successful, with local resort operators reporting that it was their best weekend in decades.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/27/japan-men-sexless-love

  • Man

    @HansSolo;@Mr. Wavevector:

    I see you discussing female hypergamy. I don’t like much these discussions because they do not help to undesrtand the social dynamics. So I will just leave some axioms:

    1. In the modern world women have a lot of social safety nets and entitlements from the government and legal system;
    2. Women are inorgasmic, i.e., they don’t value man’s body. So sex is kind of a “work” for them as a payment for something;
    3. As they have a lot of safety nets, protections, entitlements and the technological comfort (produced by men, by the way), the value of men for them is near zero, because: a) they do not need protection because they live a relatively safe world; b) they do not need a provider because they have access to the best jobs, they have the legal system in their favour and there is also wealth transfer from goverment to them; c) they do not need men’s body and penises because they can buy dildos and also because they are inorgasmic and prefer shopping and chocolate to sex (low testosterone levels).

    So as the average men has close to zero sexual value for them, they need other attributes to feel excited: i) a dominant or jerky attitude (the fantasy of being subjugated by a powerful male); ii) competition with other women (for the same man, for the best luxury goods, cars, houses, jewelry, etc.); and iii) servile men to take care of the children and do housework.

    To sum it up: you have zero “sexual” value for them. It doesn’t matter much what you do. You can be a millionaire and so have only material value. You can be a jerk and so be a clown for them and provide entertainment through competition. You can be a servile feminist man and take care of the housework and their children.

    This basically means that marriage/commitment can be a really bad, apart from very risky and costly option for you as a man. Think about it. Note: I am by no means promoting promiscuity. I think that marriage and stable families are good for society.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Wave,
    I was in Feb 69-Oct71.
    Rumor has it that the Hog was thought of after somebody read Rudel, “Stuka Pilot”. He had some Stukas rigged with auto or semi auto 37mm cannon and was supposed to have killed over 500 Russian tanks. That’s not much gun for Russian tanks, but the armor is thin on top. Being on the Eastern Front, he didn’t have such trouble with the fighters as made the Stuka obsolete after about 1942 in the West.
    Been a long time since I read it, but iirc, he was shot down five times. Said physical conditioning is important so you can get back to your own lines when shot down. Better not to be, but what can you do?
    My Dad thought the world of the Jug. The P51s were up there doing their air-to-air thing while the P47 were down in the weeds helping him and his friends.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ HanSolo

    The radfems have a short window in which to gloat about how technology and culture has made men “unnecessary”

    I don’t really believe men are less necessary now than they’ve been through most of history. The era where most men could support a housewife was an anomaly – throughout most of history husband and wife had to labor together to get by. We’re just returning to that condition. And most women will still have a psychological need for a partner, even if they don’t financially need one.

  • mr. wavevector

    To sum it up: you have zero “sexual” value for them.

    Well then, I must be some sort of special or I’m married to a freak of nature. I was just trying to drink my coffee and post on HUS this morning and my wife was pulling me away to have sex! What’s that all about?

    Besides that, my wife also seems to feel a lot more secure when I’m around, despite the apparent lack of danger, she likes that I can provide so she can raise the children, and she doesn’t even own a dildo or vibrator, so she has to get by with me. Which she does regularly. :O

  • Mr Wavevector,

    Pschological Need ?

    For all, it’s the reality
    For some, it’s an opportunity
    For most, it’s a tragedy

    MGTOW

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Richard,

    Interesting reading about Rudel. I may have to get that book. He seemed to have an indomitable will.

    “Rudel’s input was used during the development of the A-10 ground attack aircraft” according to Wikipedia. Who better to give advice?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mr. Wave,
    Lucky, too. Of all the stuff flying around, including that which hit his aircraft all those times, nothing hit him. Couple of inches one way or another and he’s a nobody. Dead nobody, I should say, amongst the tens of millions of similarly dead nobodies.

  • Liz

    HanSolo May 4, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    @mr. wavevector

    Both feminism and raunch culture are intricately intertwined with hypergamy. Raunch culture turns women into what many of the apex alphas want, namely sexy sluts that will get down with them. Feminism encourages women to fuck like men which furthers the aim of both the apex alpha (or just any male that’s 1-3 pts higher in value and is looking for casual) and the hypergamous female (not all women are hypergamous though I think maybe 1/2 are significantly so in their 20′s when at their peak looks). Some hypergamous females get deluded by the casual-sex attention into thinking they can get that same level of man for commitment.

    Wow Han, your comment should be required reading for every young lady. Embarrassingly, I am only understanding this stuff now, but it helps make sense of my dating years. I’d like to think that we’ve evolved beyond these cynical attitudes and competitive, primitive drives, but that day hasn’t come yet.

    I’ve been giving a lot of thought to the socio-sexual environment I grew up in. The historical context gives me a better perspective. My formative school years were the 1970s, which saw feminism fragmenting and looking for its next battle. The “free love” rallying cry had faded (my generation was not very political) but there was nothing to replace it with. The moral pendulum was starting to swing the other way, but you can’t un-ring the bell and just reinstate traditional values. Sex ed was only concerned with reducing pregnancy and STDs, which maybe it did, but I don’t remember ever being taught how to conduct myself with the opposite sex. By 1990 I was 28 years old and had had exactly one long-term relationship. I admit I couldn’t understand why many guys, many of them quite worthy, seemed readily interested in me only casually or for a short time. For far too long I was one of those gals who “can’t put 2 and 2 together and continue in the same loop.”

    Yikes. If only I knew then what I know now.

    “What about your parents?” I hear you ask… I don’t know. These topics probably end up being collateral damage in a divorce. Someone with a failed marriage might well feel they’re not qualified to offer dating advice.

    I do remember hearing from my mother how “things are TOTALLY different now than when I grew up.” I was born the year the Pill went on the market. (That must figure into my star chart somehow.) I was led to believe that traditional teachings were now completely irrelevant.

    In the larger sense, I still like to believe we are all looking for one special person, rather than “the best we can get” but the dynamics are what they are. And I have only a year or so to explain all this to my daughter. I dread the thought of her “having to compete with bimbos” as somebody here put it.

  • Man

    Well then, I must be some sort of special or I’m married to a freak of nature.

    Perhaps you’re fortunate enough to have a wife with above average EI and IQ who knows that she has to put some effort to The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands? Perhaps you’re above the average guy in terms of social dominance (good social position)? 🙂 OK, just adding to the reasoning. Perhaps she loves you. 🙂

  • Abbot

    With fire-breathing women-ruining sex-proselytizing piss ants like Marcotte, Valenti and Rosin always on the cover of Feminist Monthly, the numbers are not surprising and are heading lower.

    “Among women, 38 percent consider themselves feminists. And men do not appear to be very liberated these days either: 18 percent “accept the label” for themselves, the poll reports.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2013/may/1/liberated-72-percent-americans-say-theyre-not-femi/#ixzz2SQTdqcWn

    .

  • Liz

    I meant to add that the ’80s added raunch culture to the mix. Even if I’d wanted to be prude I wouldn’t have known how! Ten years of negotiating that mess was enough. No wonder I got into a marriage with several red flags.

  • BuenaVista

    Liz, I sent my daughter to a fancy liberal arts college that is uber-liberal, uber-feminist. She killed it, academically and athletically, but she had to negotiate a culture in which there was “Burlesque Week” (rich girls with feminist ideals stripping — seriously, emulating professional strippers and getting naked in front of their peers in public) and Sex Week, as if college kids need help expressing their sexuality. Now, I had a lot of sex in college. I had it with my daughter’s mother, and even the liberated lezzies on the first floor complained about its frequency and vigor. But it hadn’t occurred to us that in order to be progressive sorts she should strip for all my football friends, and I should screw all of her girlfriends. But that is where things are now. That is the norm at the best colleges in the country.

    Incidentally, the other problem with feminist empowerment qua Slut City is the OKCupid effect: 80% of the girls throw themselves at 20, or maybe 10 percent of the guys. Feminism thinks this is a good idea?

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wavevector

    I don’t really believe men are less necessary now than they’ve been through most of history.

    On a personal, material level, men are absolutely less necessary now than throughout most of history. A woman can usually make enough to live on by working and also has some amount of state support as a backup, even in developing countries. The emotional need and desire is still there, yes.

    On the collective level men are more needed, yes, but I would argue that not as much as 100+ years ago. What was once done by physical strength has largely been replaced by machine. That’s why my aunt could drive a combine and harvest more grain by herself than 10 men 100 years ago. Even if men still choose to do the dangerous and demanding work, it’s a much smaller portion than 100+ years ago.

    So radfems underestimate how much men are still needed to provide material and physical benefits but men are still needed less than 100+ years ago.

  • … we live by our idolatries … and die by their ironies …

  • HanSolo

    @Marellus

    Interesting articles. The one about women not admitting that they want or need relationships reminds me of the Atlantic article about women feeling ashamed of betraying women’s “progress” by having such desires.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/women-in-their-20s-shouldnt-feel-bad-about-wanting-a-boyfriend/273737/

  • HanSolo

    @Man

    I agree with your point 1 and part of point 3. However, I disagree with point 2. Most women are or can be orgasmic. I’ve participated in creating quite a few female orgasms, though granted, I am not a woman so I don’t have first hand experience. But it usually is a trickier process than for men.

  • I have my moments, Han.

  • HanSolo

    @Liz

    Wow Han, your comment should be required reading for every young lady. Embarrassingly, I am only understanding this stuff now, but it helps make sense of my dating years. I’d like to think that we’ve evolved beyond these cynical attitudes and competitive, primitive drives, but that day hasn’t come yet.

    I agree that every young lady should be aware of these ideas because they describe so much of the current sexual market.

    Some people (including many feminists) believe in the blank slate approach since that makes it more possible to attempt to mold people’s beliefs and actions into the desired results, even when contrary to their instinctual drives. See the Atlantic article I cited above.

    I think we have some capacity to act beyond our primitive drives–though monogamy is as much a primitive drive as is promiscuity–different drives just come out more in different environments. And I don’t think evopsych is the whole story. But I do think it is a powerful component to understand human behavior and much more qualitatively predictive than any other theory I’ve heard of.

    The environment we’re in is quite different, yes. I don’t think that what makes people happy has changed too much though. People still want companionship, love and meaningful relationships.

    Whereas the drudgery of housework and unappreciative husbands made some women long for something more, now, the drudgery of extended singleness and unappreciative players makes some women long for something better.

    I think that feminists started from the assumption of female suppression and male privilege rather than an evidence-based analysis. Yes, there was some suppression and privilege but these are greatly exaggerated to further their political and cultural goals. Most men throughout history were just as suppressed and unprivileged as were their wives, whom for the most part they treated with sufficient decency, even if lacking romantic charm and charisma. I personally am more of a believer in equality than feminists in this regard: there likely were and are just as many bad women as men; an equal number of shrews, sluts and bitches as beaters, cads and complainers.

    As to your belief in the search for the special one, I agree that most men and women do want that. Many players burn out and find both the large effort involved and the diminishing marginal value of each new pussy to be unfulfilling. A minority of men and women don’t ever want a loving, close relationship but most do.

    What makes someone special, though? In that regard, I would disagree that we don’t want the best we can get. We want the most fine-tuned to ALL of our subconscious attraction criteria and conscious life-compatibility prerequisites. It’s the finding someone that pushes enough of these “buttons” and reciprocates our love that makes them feel so special, even if the buttons they subconsciously push may be in conflict with one or two of our conscious requirements.

    Good luck with your daughter. I’m sure that simply explaining the logic of women wanting the best genes possible absent any other restraints but needing to accept “less” if she wants the guy to stick around will do wonders (due to the mathematical realities of few top guys being desired by many “lesser” women). If she knows that she can come to strongly love someone at her level, even if she doesn’t immediately feel as strong of a visceral attraction as she likely will to the charismatic player that “everyone” wants she will likely be able to find more long-term happiness, though at the price of missing out on the short-term elation of “catching” Mr. Darcy, Mr. Ryan Gosling or Mr. Chris Brown for a night or two.

  • HanSolo

    Liz. In the last paragraph, that should read “a few top guys” instead of “few.”

  • mr. wavevector

    @ HanSolo,

    On a personal, material level, men are absolutely less necessary now than throughout most of history. A woman can usually make enough to live on by working and also has some amount of state support as a backup, even in developing countries. The emotional need and desire is still there, yes.

    I think we underestimate how independent women could be before the modern era. There are many examples of non-modern societies where women could make enough to live on without relying on men.

    In pre-industrial Europe, women could be financially independent and often were. They could own taverns, boarding houses, and shops, be seamstresses or weavers or milliners, or work as domestic labor or child care for the wealthy.

    Looking farther afield, much of the subsistence agriculture in non-developed parts of the world is done primarily by women. These are the “hoe-culture” societies, where agriculture is done in light soils using light implements which can be done by women. This type of agriculture is much less productive than the agriculture of the “plow-culture” societies, which is a big part of why these hoe-culture societies are poor and backwards. But nevertheless, in these societies women can and do support themselves and their families, often with little assistance from the men.

    I’ve read anthropologies of “matriarchal” societies (scare quotes because there is some debate over whether any truly matriarchal society exists). In these societies the women have most of the power. Not surprisingly, women have to do most of the work too. As feminists are finding out today, women “having it all” demotivates men, which means women end up “having to do it all”. While these societies are uniformly small, isolated, backwards, and poor, the women are not highly dependent upon the men.

    In all these counterexamples, women ultimately rely on men for security against aggression from outsiders. But that is the situation in every society.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Suppose RadGroup X says they only want this or that kind of improvement in, oh, say, freedom of/to something or other. Point out to them that the follow-on is a catastrophe.
    “Nope. We only want what’s fair and we’re for freedom.”
    Repeat about eleventy-seven times. Same response.
    Follow on starts looking like a catatrosphe.
    Try again.
    “Nope. We only want what’s fair….”
    Eventually, even normal people begin to suspect the catastrophe was the desired end state.
    See, for example, Cloward-Piven who had the temerity to preach it and still nobody believes.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’m sure that simply explaining the logic of women wanting the best genes possible absent any other restraints but needing to accept “less” if she wants the guy to stick around will do wonders (due to the mathematical realities of few top guys being desired by many “lesser” women).

    I’m not sure of that at all.

    People are not rational, especially when it comes to basic instinctive behavior like sex and reproduction. Facts, logic and math won’t do. More immediate and visceral persuasion is needed.

    I think all these sob stories in the media about the sad lives of single women are much more convincing.

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wavevector

    I agree with everything you’ve said. However, that still doesn’t change the fact that women need men less now than then. Some women were independent back then but it’s easier for them to be independent now than back then, and they can be independent with a much higher level of wealth than back then too.

    Back then a poor, independent woman could have basic necessities. Now she can have that plus lots of “luxuries” like appliances, trips, tv, computer, car, etc., things the equivalent of which would have made her well off in the past.

  • HanSolo

    And by poor, I am referring to the “poor” in rich countries, not the truly poor in developing countries.

  • @WV

    I think we underestimate how independent women could be before the modern era. There are many examples of non-modern societies where women could make enough to live on without relying on men.

    Not sure how common that was, though things probably began to change after 1800. But if the argument is that women today have less “need” for men due to relative improvement in their own material SOL, then by reverse argument the same could be said of men: they don’t have much need for women today, and haven’t historically-speaking. Seems rather utilitarian, despite the obvious: human beings (male or female) want to feel wanted for something other than just financial security.

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wavevector

    I never said how to go about simply explaining the logic, or the premises and the consequences that follow. Sharing a story of how a woman ended up alone because she spent her “best” years being too picky, like Kate Bollick, can be part of a simple explanation of the logic.

    So, you’re suggestion to share a story that displays the logic I stated is very good advice. It gets her daughter (or any person) somewhat emotionally stirred and paying attention. Then the dry facts of the logic can be pointed out.

    I do realize that the way I phrased it could be taken as simply giving a list of premises and some if/then constructions. However, when I explain the logic to my female friends I usually share one of the many stories from people I know.

  • HanSolo

    Telling a story that contains all the elements of the argument will be more effective than only stating them in a dry fashion. But that story is still a simple explanation.

  • J

    although I’ve got a slender figure and cheekbones that make me look good for my age.

    Thanks God for cheekbones.

  • Man

    Most women are or can be orgasmic.

    Although I am not a woman, even she is orgasmic, I wonder if the nature of this orgasm is more emotional than genital, and how much importance a genital one has for them. An experiment I would love to do is to compare if women prefer 1) A man who’s specialist in giving her orgasms, through oral sex, etc. 2 ) A socially dominant man, which can make great envy to other women, but that f*** her with intent and doesn’t care much about her orgasms and demands “complete” compliance or service; or 3) A man to whom she is emotionally attached, enough to “surrender herself” fully during the intercourse and experiment with orgasms once in a while, even if just with vanilla sex.

    Although I am also not a specialist in this area, some psychologists argue that some women are capable of faking orgasm to the point that she even believes in her own lie, sort of acting out the fantasy of having or wanting the orgasm. I mean, they probably do not experiment “orgasm” the same way we men do and it’s likely much more elusive to them.

  • J

    This type of agriculture is much less productive than the agriculture of the “plow-culture” societies, which is a big part of why these hoe-culture societies are poor and backwards. But nevertheless, in these societies women can and do support themselves and their families, often with little assistance from the men.

    Patriarchy and the plow were born on the same day, but, even in hoe cultures, men have a lot of value. They still hunt, which means they bring in most of the protein, fight and protect. They may have long periods of idleness, but the work they do is very intense and dangerous–and high status as well.

  • Man

    Most men throughout history were just as suppressed and unprivileged as were their wives, whom for the most part they treated with sufficient decency, even if lacking romantic charm and charisma. I personally am more of a believer in equality than feminists in this regard: there likely were and are just as many bad women as men; an equal number of shrews, sluts and bitches as beaters, cads and complainers.

    I also see it this way and I am afraid that feminism, with its one-sided view and often not taking into account the biological and psychological differences of men and women, ended up creating a huge imbalance. I do not like either the rising misoginy and the development of the men’s movement which is sort of a visceral and angry reaction to misandric feminism and that’s going on on a societal level:

    A second order is to abstract the risk further and treat it as an injustice. So it’s no longer just a risk to me personally (which is still exposing a weakness, after all), but an injustice that is hurting a lot of people and undermining society. And it’s surely legitimate to feel righteous anger about something like that!

    Sites like this, IMO, helps the bridge the gap: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/about-hooking-up-smart/

  • Liz

    Man, oh Man –

    Although I am not a woman, even she is orgasmic, I wonder if the nature of this orgasm is more emotional than genital, and how much importance a genital one has for them.

    Are you serious? Emotional orgasm? Where do you get this stuff?

    Although I am also not a specialist in this area, some psychologists argue that some women are capable of faking orgasm to the point that she even believes in her own lie.

    Well IF a woman has never had one (pretty unlikely) then she might not know. But believe her own lie? I’ll tell you who’s believing his own nonsense. You and the psychologists.

    Let me be undiplomatic: if your woman is never having an orgasm, you are doing something wrong.

  • Man

    Are you serious? Emotional orgasm? Where do you get this stuff?

    Barbara Keesling, in Sexual Healing: The fact is that many women are orgasmic with one partner but not with another simply because one partner functions better sexually or because of feelings of love for a certain partner. She also recommends women to take more responsibility for their orgasm, rather than to promptly blame the partner, provided that she cares for him.

    Let me be undiplomatic: if your woman is never having an orgasm, you are doing something wrong.

    Let me also me undiplomatic: do you have a partner and always orgasm with him? Have a look: http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/resources/FAQ.html#orgasm.

    One of the biggest feminist myths is that women have a sexual drive as strong as men’s and that they have some kind of “repressed” sexual desire owing to the “historical sexist oppression”. Many women still believe in this myth and keep trying to equal men in this regard. Sorry, nature has made us different.

    Anyway thank you for you comment. But I think it’s not so wise for a woman to promptly blame her partner for having problems with orgasm. But she’s of course free to look for another. Anyway, good communication, intimacy and having a relationship in the first place might help. 🙂

    I will end with Barbara Keesling’s self-question about it: Given that women have many different sites in their genitals that can trigger orgasm, and given that women on average have a more diffuse orgasm ability than men, why is it that so many women have difficulties with orgasm, especially during intercourse?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    In the larger sense, I still like to believe we are all looking for one special person, rather than “the best we can get” but the dynamics are what they are.

    Not entirely incompatible

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man,

    Dude, some of your ideas about female orgasm are nuttier than squirrel poop.

    But I’ll give you this – female orgasm is less reliable and more varied than male orgasm, because it isn’t highly selected by evolution. And female orgasm has higher emotional requirements.

    One of the interesting things about getting older with my wife is how our sexual responses are converging. Her libido is as strong as it ever was, where mine is declining. (I’m still ahead, but not by much.) She is more confident and willing to initiate, and I initiate less because I’m not horny all the time (and that’s a frickin relief, let me tell you). My arousal is not always instantaneous and automatic, so sometimes I too need warming up. My emotional state has a greater impact on my sexual response, as hers always has. She orgasms more reliably than she used to, nearly every time now. I orgasm less reliably – I used to be 100%, now once in a while I don’t get there.

  • mr. wavevector

    Patriarchy and the plow were born on the same day

    Plow cultivation is strongly but not necessarily linked with patriarchy. The indigenous New World civilizations of Mexico, Central and South America were patriarchal but there was no plows in the New World – probably due to a lack of suitable draft animals.

  • Man

    But I’ll give you this – female orgasm is less reliable and more varied than male orgasm, because it isn’t highly selected by evolution. And female orgasm has higher emotional requirements.

    You not being a woman either, sounds like you’re just confirming what I wrote (I cited a woman’s research). One of the links I posted also has research indicating that as women get older they can orgasm more easily.

  • J

    But I’ll give you this – female orgasm is less reliable and more varied than male orgasm, because it isn’t highly selected by evolution. And female orgasm has higher emotional requirements.

    As a woman I’ll vouch for you here.

    Plow cultivation is strongly but not necessarily linked with patriarchy. The indigenous New World civilizations of Mexico, Central and South America were patriarchal but there was no plows in the New World – probably due to a lack of suitable draft animals.

    Agreed. Questions: How did those civilizations get to a big enough agricultural surplus sans plow? Terrace farming? And possibly irrigation?If so, was terrace bulding/farming a predominantly male activity? Or did men build them and women tend them?

    Because I think the root (Pardon the pun.) of patriarchy must be the entrance of men into large scale agriculture with or without the plow.

  • J

    @HereIAm

    The two main books of David Schnarch are Passionate Marriage and Intimacy and Desire and from my perspective would read them in that order….

    Thanks for the info. I’ll try to find them on my next library run.

  • TexasDude

    Thanks for the kindness to my testimony.

    My wife and I may seem anachronistic, but I am not so sure. A block and a half away from me lives another high school sweat heart couple. They, myself, and my wife all went to high school together. He played football with me. His wife was a cheerleader. They have a few more children than we do. On the other side of town lives another high school sweat heart couple who my wife and I went to high school with.

    We live in semi-large city in north Texas.

    These kind of couples and relationships are there. They are real. It isn’t all just about hookin’ up and booty calls or at least it shouldn’t be.

    Relationships are give and take. Sometimes you give a lot, sometimes you don’t. There definitely has to some kind of chemistry, but even with chemistry you have to augment it to keep the relationship going.

    My wife and I have had some seriously tough moments. It’s rough when your dream of running your own software company goes crashing down and you are a hair’s breath away from losing your home. My wife had to go back to work during that time period. Problem was that she didn’t go back full time. She took a part time teaching position. I worked nights at a gas station.

    This all happened almost 2 years from the birth of our first child. She wasn’t mentally ready to go back to work. I am sure that some people of both sexes would scoff at that notion of not being ready to work, but that was the case. Financially, we wouldn’t have had too much of a problem if she went back to teaching full time, but I didn’t force it.

    Give and take.

    Could I have been resentful that our financial future was being giving short shrift by my wife for not feeling like going back to work full time? You betcha! Could I have badgered her to take a full time job? Yep. The issue was that, though, she could have felt and done the same thing in regards to me. At one time the money I made more than replaced her full time teaching position salary. Logic would dictate that it would be a no-brainer for her to pick up the financial slack while I was having a bad time. However, life isn’t always logical. Humans are just not always or mostly logical. Maybe our relationship wouldn’t be where it is today if I had done that.

    I’ll bet some would use that as a reason to justify their enmity towards the other sex (e.g. “See, she wouldn’t work ergo women are X” or “Just like a man to fail at Y and demand a young mother to further her own burden”). That would be wrong, though.

    That experience, ironically, strengthened us a couple. It helped further cement the vows that some like to denigrate or see as being not relevant. We weathered a storm together. We saved our home that we still live in today! It would have been soo easy to split up without being married. Heck, too many people feel that being married means leaving when things get a bit out of whack.

    Even the Demon Gene Simmons from KISS couldn’t get away from nuptials!

    You know, though, even when money was in very short supply, I would still buy her favorite flower on our anniversary and get one of those cheesy For My Wife cards on her birthday. She did the same kind of little non-expensive things for me. We still told each other, “I love you.”

    I honestly can’t conceptualize a life without her and my boys. With the Navy Reserve I have been all over the South Pacific and Asia. It’s been pretty neat for me in that regard, but it was incomplete. I couldn’t share it with wife. Yes, she got the short, silk robe with a dragon on the back, but it would have been better if she were there to actually pick it out. Sure, I had my shipmates, but, sorry, they weren’t my wife. The Navy is not my wife.

    Ready the comments on this blog may make one believe my experience in a relationship is rare. I hope that is not the case because I have four wonderful boys my wife and I are trying to raise to be men and husbands, not tail chasers.

    My oldest son, who is 12, just went to his first dance with a girl. He asked her out. When I was his age, I was soo shy I couldn’t have asked any girl out to a dance. I told him I was proud of him and then said he needed to do this right. He got a suit and he picked out a corsage for her, which he put on her wrist before they walked into the junior high (or as they say now … middle school) gym.

    Man, I almost sound like I am from another era.

  • Liz

    @Man
    Sorry, I shouldn’t have gotten personal. I was disagreeing with your statement that women are “inorgasmic.” I agree that communication and intimacy are everything. Practice helps too 😉 (and for the record, yes I do, prob 80%, intercourse alone).
    I didn’t mean to “blame the man” but I’ll say that both men & women tend to need some education in this department. It works in reverse too, that a woman who has a fulfilling experience probably has a good partner, so guys, you can take some of the credit too.
    If you want proof of a female orgasm… don’t want to break forum rules here… but there are physical “indicators” and a gal who is comfortable with her body might let you feel it.

    @wavevector
    My brother worked in rural Africa for some years and most of the manual work there was done by women. He wrote that on a typical day, “Women pound manioc (a tough root) in the sun. Men sit drinking palm wine in the shade.”

    @HanSolo

    Sharing a story of how a woman ended up alone because she spent her “best” years being too picky, like Kate Bollick, can be part of a simple explanation of the logic.

    Kate Bollick? Who’s that? Some celebrity? That’s not gonna work (we watch maybe ONE TV show…) Although, I just had a friend over yesterday who’s about my age (late 40s) and never-married. Maybe I should have the two of them talk.

  • szopen

    @Susan Walsh

    Sadly, despite my best efforts, my children have been affected by the culture and now spout all sorts of liberal ideology.

    Before 20 y/o, heritability of attitudes on liberal/conservative scale is 0. Later is approaches well above 50%.

  • szopen

    What is a feminism, actually? I was discussing in Polish feminists’ forum and I think that there are as many “feminisms” as there are “feminists”. Some women calling themselves feminists there would pass for conservatives in USA, I think. E.g. if one thinks that women and men are different, that there are not that many girls at math unis because they are not that interested, not because of discrimination etc. She says that feminism is about “giving people equal legal opportunities regardless of whether they have vagina or penis”. E.g. in discussion about the army she said that females should have right to enlist, but only if they do not endanger other soldiers and if they can keep the same standards as males.

    I have impression that radfems are nuts, but in moderate version (i.e. equal rights) is something which is pretty much accepted by everyone. I am sure I would be radical feminist in XIX century.

    @Wavevector

    equality of opportunity for women is certainly desirable

    You are feminist, wavevector, you knew that?

    • @szopen

      I have impression that radfems are nuts, but in moderate version (i.e. equal rights) is something which is pretty much accepted by everyone.

      Yes, I am on record as considering myself a gender equity feminist. I think that most people subscribe to that. I believe feminism achieved its goals long ago and has morphed into a female supremacy movement.

  • szopen

    @Megaman
    ” things probably began to change after 1800. ”

    It depends on the class and the country. You should read something about 16th century Poland. Especially about the Wild Fields; one form of divorce was a wife shooting her husband (ok, excaggerating, but just a bit), and women could lead a bands of desperados 🙂

  • szopen

    @J

    I think the root (Pardon the pun.) of patriarchy must be the entrance of men into large scale agriculture with or without the plow.

    If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that pastoral societies and hunter-gatherer’s were/are not patriarchal?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ szopen,

    You are feminist, wavevector, you knew that?

    By the broad definition of feminism, yes. But in the US, the mainstream feminist ideology encompasses much more than that. It subscribes to the notion that all gender differences are social constructs, so that any difference in behavior or achievement between the sexes is a priori proof of discrimination. It holds that men are uniformly privileged with respect to women, so that misandry or sexism against men is impossible. I could go on and on, but my point is that in my context, calling myself a feminist would indicate support for a lot of things I think are nonsense.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Liz,

    My brother worked in rural Africa for some years and most of the manual work there was done by women. He wrote that on a typical day, “Women pound manioc (a tough root) in the sun. Men sit drinking palm wine in the shade.”

    Thanks for the confirmation – that’s exactly what I had in mind.

    One of the fascinating things about the “patriarchy” is that it motivates men to work very hard for the benefit of women and children. That’s not necessarily the natural state of man. Maybe I should be a feminist after all – drinking palm wine in the shade doesn’t sound so bad!

  • mr. wavevector

    @J,

    Because I think the root (Pardon the pun.) of patriarchy must be the entrance of men into large scale agriculture with or without the plow.

    I think you’re right. I know the Mayans had a complex system of irrigation, raised fields, and terraces.

    @ szopen,

    pastoral societies and hunter-gatherer’s were/are not patriarchal?

    Many anthropologists argue that hunter-gatherer societies are egalitarian in nature. There is little in the way of social hierarchy, and everyone is expected to share with everyone else. Men and women have different roles, but both are essential and there is little status difference between the sexes. Sexual relationships are more fluid and higher in female autonomy. The men are not much concerned with confidence of paternity and some such societies don’t even have concept of paternity.

    As J said, having the food surplus (and storage) and a tangible fixed asset in real estate is the basis of patriarchy. Once a society has that they can start to build up wealth and power, and that’s what patriarchy is all about. The patriarchal sex roles are simply those that have proven the most efficient towards that end. A strong patriarchal society needs high economic productivity, military prowess and a high reproductive rate. Men are utilized as workers and soldiers; women as domestic workers and breeders. All this leads to the male dominated hierarchies that are characteristic of patriarchies.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ref hoe agriculture. See “Under the Mountain Wall” about the Rockefeller expedition to New Guinea. Not only do women do the farming, when a male relative is killed in the men’s occasional skirmishes–they sit around all day waiting for a raid, or they sit around all day plannning one–one or more women relative has a finger removed. Which means that, not only do the women do the farming, they do so at a handicap.
    Which means that things are pretty fat if a bunch of cripples can support a society when the men do nothing productive but think about getting off their asses maybe next week and raiding the neighbors, if they can think of something to steal when they raid.
    The weapons are kind of lame, so not a lot guys get hurt. I figure a dozen guys with stout shields and clubs could clean the place out.
    This is known as a “primitive” society.
    They combine a low standard of living with a combination of land and crops that allow them to meet, easily, the desired standard of living. Plus, maybe they’re not very bright and they think they’ve got it going on.
    It would take forensic anthropology to see if ancient hoe agriculture was done by men or women or both. By the time we get pix like Egyptian wall paintings or records in various kings’ temples, we’re into the Bronze Age.

    I don’t know about the draft animal issue in the Americas. There aren’t any suitable draft animals in the wild anywhere. They have to be caught and bred. The African water buffalo, which is supposedly the most dangerous mammal in Africa, is a Southeast Asian water buffalo imported for work gone wild and probably reverted to its natural state. Zebra stallions are dangerous, but they’ve not been bred to be less contentious for at least five thousand generations.
    Probably do the same with the North American buffalo, or breed some strength into the llama further south.
    There are small wheeled toys in MesoAmerica, which is cool, but nobody bothered to build a cart or wheel barrow to be hauled by a person.
    Shortfall in imagination.

  • Man

    @Liz: No problem and nothing personal either. 🙂

    I agree that communication and intimacy are everything. Practice helps too (and for the record, yes I do, prob 80%, intercourse alone). I didn’t mean to “blame the man” but I’ll say that both men & women tend to need some education in this department. It works in reverse too, that a woman who has a fulfilling experience probably has a good partner, so guys, you can take some of the credit too. If you want proof of a female orgasm… don’t want to break forum rules here… but there are physical “indicators” and a gal who is comfortable with her body might let you feel it.

    I know what a female orgasm is and how the physical indications are like. I just wanted to point out that it is less common and frequent than men’s orgasm; that women usually have difficulties coming to it; that some women have serious difficulties with it; that her capacity to experience it is often related to how comfortable she is with her own sexuality (and that’s perhaps why they experience it better as they get older and/or when more able to “surrender” in the context of an emotional attachment); that women experience it and assign a different value to it; that women usually engage in sex for other reasons other than attaining an orgasm; that women and (men by the way) trying to focus too much on orgasm is counterproductive. Focus on the relationship, intimacy and bonding behavior is best.

    I also think that women getting to know more of their own sexuality is likely to benefit their relationships too.

  • Man

    I believe feminism achieved its goals long ago and has morphed into a female supremacy movement.

    +1

    I think that what we need now is more women trying to understand men’s issues, working together to build more harmonious relationships, acknowledging our essential differences and needs.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man,

    that women usually engage in sex for other reasons other than attaining an orgasm

    I’m not sure if “usually” is correct, but substitute “often” and I would agree. A couple of my early sexual relationships were non-orgasmic on the women’s part. They were young and inexperienced and didn’t know what they needed to orgasm and I surely didn’t either. To be honest, since they didn’t tell me what they wanted I was happy to do as I pleased, because I knew darn well what I wanted.

    Sex with my first girlfriend would go something like this: kiss her, caress her, feel her up, undress her, fuck her for about 3 minutes until I came, hold her, kiss her some more, and talk gently to her. If I were in her spot, that wouldn’t quite have satisfied me. But she was always eager for more!

  • @szopen

    It depends on the class and the country. You should read something about 16th century Poland.

    No doubt there were exceptions in the West. After all, Russia had a decidedly cruel and non-monogamous Catherine the Great on the throne for 30+ years. She got there via regicide (her husband the Tsar being in the way) and stayed there in part by sleeping with the right noblemen.

    But considering the average woman’s lot through the ages: specialized education largely discouraged until the mid-19th Century. In the United States, police began to intervene in cases of domestic violence around the turn of the 20th Century. With some exceptions, how a man conducted his domestic affairs prior to that time was considered his business alone. The oldest profession was legal, public, and widespread until about the same time. It’s no coincidence these developments were happening at the same time women’s suffrage and temperance movements were on the move (see Ken Burns’ “Prohibition” miniseries).

    Things have changed quite a bit in the last 100 years, but it took thousands of years and the development of modern medicine and technology for much of anything to change at all. Given that, I don’t see the preponderance of historical evidence for man’s benevolence towards woman, as has been suggested. Or towards other men, for that matter.

  • Man

    I’m not sure if “usually” is correct, but substitute “often” and I would agree.

    I would say “often” only they really know (or not) their motives. But that’s not my preoccupation because I am not a woman. As Susan puts it, they are the “Gatekeeper of sex”. So they decide when the gate is open or not and for whatever reason it is. 🙂

  • Re: nuptials. Some researchers are concerned about a report from the Pew guys that there is a pool of increasingly-reluctant husbands in the 30-50 yo male demographic. I think that 25-30% of men in this bracket who were surveyed stated an explicit preference for never getting married; men in the 50 brackets were far more favorable towards it.

    The concern is that the average age of marriage may continue to rise and that if it falls into this 30-50 age range (IIRC, the average for men is currently 29) then we will see overall marriage rates pass a tipping point and drop sharply. My sense of this is that it probably will occur, for a host of reasons that are popular with both young men and young women.

    I was reading an interesting book on marital issues that discussed the “Covenant Marriage” laws passed in some states. These laws basically make it more difficult for Covenant couples to get divorced (these couples volunteer to legally hold themselves to a significantly higher marital standard). One could argue that the laws basically restore the option of an earlier, traditional, stronger view of the institution relative to the regulated LTR model that we see so much of today. Even in these conservative states, however, less than 2% of newlyweds have opted for the Covenant option.

  • Plain Jain

    “. I think that 25-30% of men in this bracket who were surveyed stated an explicit preference for never getting married; men in the 50 brackets were far more favorable towards it.”

    They finally start thinking about their mortality at that age and spending the last decade of their life weak, feeble, alone and covered in their own feces doesn’t seem too appealing. Hence the need for a maid/orderly (oh excuse me – a “wife”).

  • Plain Jain

    “Some hypergamous females get deluded by the casual-sex attention into thinking they can get that same level of man for commitment.”

    Provided they are at least minimally decent looking – THEY CAN!

    “The “free love” rallying cry had faded (my generation was not very political)”

    Travis,
    “Funny. I just read an interview on Reddit with a guy who shoots porn. Nothing erotic. He was talking about the reality of the business as opposed to the fantasy. If you never want to be aroused by porn again, reading that interview would be a good start. Anyway, one guy asked, “What, in your opinion, is the biggest reason these girls end up in the business?”
    His answer was “No doubt about it. Ninety percent of the girls who do porn grew up without a father in their life. Nearly every single girl I’ve ever talked to in almost twenty years in the business had daddy issues. People think all these girls must have been molested or addicted to drugs, but it always comes back to not having a father in their life.”
    Free love was about politics?! Who knew?

    – And yet there are people out there, even self-identified “conservatives” (especially in the Manosphere) who insist that the porn industry or sex industry in general, is NOT exploitative and does not prey upon the vulnerable but rather is something that psychologically stable and emotionally healthy adults enter into purely out of individual choice.

    I guess they say this to hamsterize away their own porn addictions and pro-legalization of prostitution stance.

  • Plain Jain

    [The above comment got jumbled up.]

    “The “free love” rallying cry had faded (my generation was not very political)”

    Free love was about politics?! Who knew?

  • Plain Jain

    “Given that women have many different sites in their genitals that can trigger orgasm, and given that women on average have a more diffuse orgasm ability than men, why is it that so many women have difficulties with orgasm, especially during intercourse?”

    2 reasons: the actual physicality of the penis and his bedroom skills or lack thereof.

    Penises are shaped differently and some fit will in some vaginas while less well in others. Read the Kama Sutra for more details on genital types.

    Skills: no two women are alike. What works for one, might not for another. Some of what works for one might work sometimes for another, but not all of it or all the time.

    Technique must be adapted to each individual.

    The reason why masturbation is great is because each individual knows the zones, the timing and the rhythm that works exactly for her.

    When you’ve got your own personal pattern down, sex with another person, especially if just for sex’s sake, can be downright burdensome.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll said it a million times again – sex with another person is primarily about the bond, the foreplay, the togetherness, the feel of another human’s touch and the feel of skin to skin, NOT ORGASM.

    If its purely the orgasm you are after – sex with yourself is a better bet.

  • Liz

    @Plain Jain May 6, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    “I think that 25-30% of men in this bracket who were surveyed stated an explicit preference for never getting married; men in the 50 brackets were far more favorable towards it.”

    They finally start thinking about their mortality at that age and spending the last decade of their life weak, feeble, alone and covered in their own feces doesn’t seem too appealing. Hence the need for a maid/orderly (oh excuse me – a “wife”).

    Yes… but Watch Out. Speaking personally, I don’t view an older bachelor as much of a prize. Somebody who’s said “no” to commitment well into middle age probably sets off alarm bells in a lot of women. I might even call it the male version of Damaged Goods because he has had the single / lone wolf / waiting-for-something-better mindset for so long. Does he understand relatedness enough to put it into action? Doubtful. Or is he still seeking something for himself, as before, it’s just that the “something” has changed? (i.e. maid, stable companionship)

    Having found religion, confirmed bachelors may find that attracting an actual mate is not as easy as they thought. There’s a point where a man’s attractiveness begins to decline with age rather than increase. Where earning power and status begin to be offset by declining physiques, and maybe the beginning of health issues. (Not sure what this peak may be, perhaps 40-45? Susan?)

    A player who has finally run out of options in terms of female attention isn’t giving up much when he offers his commitment, is he? And I think women know it.

    Of course, many do manage to bedazzle some young thing and even start a family, but to what end? Their nieces and nephews and friends’ kids are graduating high school, while these older dads are mistaken for grandparents and can hardly toss a ball with their kids because of arthritis.

    So beware, players. Ye shall reap what ye sow.

    • @Liz

      Having found religion, confirmed bachelors may find that attracting an actual mate is not as easy as they thought. There’s a point where a man’s attractiveness begins to decline with age rather than increase. Where earning power and status begin to be offset by declining physiques, and maybe the beginning of health issues. (Not sure what this peak may be, perhaps 40-45? Susan?)

      I believe a male’s physical peak is around 28. For a woman who wants to have children, and is in her 20s, I would say an arbitrary dividing line is 35, assuming his earning power is increasing through his 30s. Obviously, a woman who’s 35 will happily consider men 40+.

      Women have a strong preference for men about 2.5 years older, all things considered. This has been found to be the case in 40 countries that were studied. Also, men have a universal preference for marrying women around 3 years younger, IIRC.

  • Liz

    @PJ

    Old age can indeed be payback time. This is a true story from my days on the local ambulance service.

    Old man in his 70s, maybe 80s. Multiple health issues. He had been a large man, but was now confined to a wheelchair. Probably on oxygen, and although I can’t remember the specifics, let’s just say that he required some care. A nurse or LNA (who was also an ambulance volunteer) came in once or twice a week , but the rest of the time his wife was his caretaker.

    Except that he was not a very nice man, and she was repaying the favor. He was obviously an aged bully, used to raising his voice and getting his way. He tried it with us, and it got him nowhere. Now that he was completely stripped of his male dominance, he had nothing. The wife sat in the corner and smirked while we loaded him up – and that was her behavior with others around. I have no doubt she was even less nice when they were alone. And frankly, none of us really felt very sorry for him.

    I have no idea if he was a cad or a player, just showing that past actions can come right back at you. And if you expect to be cared for in your old age, you’d better have earned it.

  • Man

    @Liz: In women’s fantasy world there are no common men. All of them are “players” with lots of women pining away to commit with them. I wonder if this just a projection of women’s desire to compete for her “special one”. 🙂

    @Susan: I think you could make nowadays world a very great contribution if you could desmistify and identify, especially with numbers and statistics, who the “players” really are, and whom they’re playing with, i.e., the “played” women. This hooking up culture is causing a tremendous wreckage in relationships and only breeding hatred. Perhaps you might also complement with an article about what you mean with the quintessencial SMP standoff?

  • Gin Martini

    PJ: “When you’ve got your own personal pattern down, sex with another person, especially if just for sex’s sake, can be downright burdensome.”

    This is sad. Nope.

    PJ: “I’ve said it before and I’ll said it a million times again – sex with another person is primarily about the bond, the foreplay, the togetherness, the feel of another human’s touch and the feel of skin to skin, NOT ORGASM.

    It’s both, not either/or. Duh.

    PJ: “If its purely the orgasm you are after – sex with yourself is a better bet.”

    Nah, I suppose this is true if you’ve only ever had sex with people who suck, or, yiu are incapable of long-term relationships and fully bonding and learning another person’s body.

    After 20 years, sex with my wife is orders of magnitude better than with myself, and she would say the same about me. She gets me off better than I can myself! Granted, I can do myself faster, but it’s meh… There and gone. Not satisfying, at all.

    But go ahead, keep whacking off if you think it’s better. 😉

  • Charlotte Allen

    Never-married men over age 35 do start to look sort of old–to young men, not to women in the men’s age cohort. Men over age 35 should start gradually dismantling their dreams of picking up 20-year-olds in bars–although they’ll probably have fairly good luck until they really hit the wall at age 40 or so. But those men, if they’re still reasonably good-looking and especially if they have status-y jobs, will still look good to slightly older women. I know several men who waited till their late 40s to marry for the first time, and they still managed to marry reasonably fertile women in their 30s and became good husbands and fathers (the wives got pregnant right away). It all depends on what kind of man you are. If you’re a jerk or a loser, you won’t luck out. If you still have some alpha cred, you can pull it off.

    Interestingly, widowers of any age have no trouble finding second wives… as long as they don’t want 20-year-olds. Divorced men don’t have much trouble, either. I guess it’s pre-selection.

  • Plain Jain

    “Never-married men over age 35 do start to look sort of old–to young men, not to women in the men’s age cohort.”

    Too much of a generalization. There ARE women in the same age cohort who find them less attractive than younger men. Youth signals vigor, vitality, virility, fertility and better sex – true or not with the last one – but come on, we can drop the pretty lies when talking about age and sexual attraction.

    Cougars exist for a reason.

  • Man

    @Susan:

    Bottom line: around 10-20% of students hooking up regularly, primarily with one another

    Confirms my views on who are the “players” and whom they’re “playing” with. 🙂

    The Power You Gain When You Lay It On the Line

    “Laying It On the Line” describes precisely the point I’ve reached in the way I approach women. I actually got to this point only recently in my life. There is one caveat, however: I convey only normal security or confidence, usually proportionate to my feelings or interest, taking also into account her feelings, not being so aggressive in a way that violates her boundaries. I mean, I am looking for an emotional connection, not for a “prey”. Perhaps women love a cocky attitude, but I also find women who have no self-confidence a big turnoff. By self-confidence here I usually imply a woman who is self-confident of her femininity, beauty… who has a healthy and balanced self-esteem… Well, you get it.

  • Man

    I believe a male’s physical peak is around 28.

    Confirmed. 🙂 I think it’s pretty accurate. To keep 20’s vigor probably only with supplemental testosterone, which might not be a health wise choice anyway.

  • Plain Jain

    “I believe a male’s physical peak is around 28.”

    ” Confirmed. 🙂 I think it’s pretty accurate. To keep 20′s vigor probably only with supplemental testosterone, which might not be a health wise choice anyway.”

    ^^^ That goes back to what I was saying about the culture, its lack of acceptance of stages of life, age appropriate behavior, acceptance of mortality and the preparation of the mind and consciousness.

  • Anacaona
  • There has got to be something more to this life …

  • PJayne

    “There has got to be something more to this life …”

    You’ll never know. Your culture doesn’t teach that. You have to learn from me or someone like me. I’ll give you a discount if you want to attend my next retreat.

  • Liz

    I wonder about the age gap with my BF… he’s a young 59, and I’m a very immature 50. 😉 (We’ve both been married before)

    It seems that delaying marriage is not only a primary, rational behavior (that is, a conscious individual decision), but the outcome of lots of socio-economic and sexual trends, and some of them are leading us into uncharted territory.

    Having said that, the people I know who got married young haven’t made out well either.

    It seems we go into even our first marriages with more baggage than American Airlines.

  • Karl

    >> Women have a strong preference for men about 2.5 years older, all things considered

    This would be a crucially important fact…. if we lived in a world where women approach men.

    If women don’t do the approaching, they only get to chose from amongst those guys have already chosen them. And that is the world we live in.

    • If women don’t do the approaching, they only get to chose from amongst those guys have already chosen them. And that is the world we live in.

      Right, and they’re more likely to respond positively to men of their preferred age.

  • Karl

    >> How did those [pre-Columbian New World] civilizations get to a big enough agricultural surplus sans plow?

    They didn’t get very big. They didn’t get big enough to sail across oceans and steal other people’s gold. Much less get big enough to learn how to handle domestic animals or learn that child sacrifices actually don’t ensure the harvests.

    In other words, they NEVER got big enough to be Alpha.