Defining the Relationship, the Easy Way

May 6, 2013

Frustrated CoupleI get a lot of positive feedback from readers on the effectiveness of my advice, which is one of my primary rewards as a blogger.  But there’s one area where young women continually struggle to implement HUS strategy: No Sex Before Monogamy. 

Don’t get me wrong – it’s not that women want to have sex before monogamy. They want nothing more than to have sex within the context of a relationship. The problem is that they’re often unsure about whether they’ve reached that point, and they hate, hate, hate having to initiate the DTR, i.e. “Define the Relationship talk.”

Picture this. You’ve hung out with a guy a few times, you really like him, and you think he likes you too. The attraction is strong, you’ve made out and gone a bit beyond, and you’re hoping he wants a relationship and that the two of you will be official soon.  He appears to be sincere in his interest, and you’re pretty sure he’s not interested in anyone else. But he hasn’t said anything about dating, and you wish he would before he tries for sex! Because if he doesn’t, you’re going to have to call a halt in the middle of a passionate makeout and ask him, “What are we doing?” And he’ll stare at you in bafflement and say, “What? Don’t you want to?” And you’ll say, “Yes, I do, but I mean, what are we doing really? I mean, are you just looking to hook up, or…?” At which point he sighs, sits up, and resigns himself for the inevitable “talk.” 

Girls need lady balls of steel to go there, because even if the guy is open to a relationship, we worry that killing the buzz this way will be such a turnoff that he’ll want to get away from us as fast as possible. So more often than not,  girls go off the high dive hoping for the best. Even girls who have rehearsed the lines with me report back that they couldn’t bring themselves to say it when the time came.

Sometimes it works out and not long after having sex he states that he wants to be your boyfriend. Many times, though, sex is the Touchdown and it’s Game Over. You just don’t understand – how could a guy go from liking you so much for weeks, then pretend you’re just buddies (or even worse, strangers) when you bump into him on campus? Dammit, you should have asked him what he was looking for!

I’ve got two important pieces of information for you today – a strategy and a caveat.

Reducing the Awkwardness of the DTR

As a woman you are the gatekeeper to sex. You’re calling the shots on timing, and if you have sex without asking any questions, it’s on you,  you know that. So how can you bring up the relationship question without feeling like you’re killing the mood and creating major awkwardness?

Make it short and very direct. Reader Gin Martini recalls what his college girlfriend (now wife) said:

“I won’t [hook up with] anyone who’s seeing other people. Are you?”

That won’t guarantee you a relationship, but at least it speaks to the question of being exclusive. It also provides an easy opening to the question of what each of you is looking for. Do not wait until you’re both all worked up to ask this question! When you get the sense that he’s going to try and escalate for sex, have the conversation the minute you start canoodling. 

Gin Martini:

There are two valid answers you want to hear – “yes, and it stops right now,” or “no.” Why do I recommend this approach? It’s stated as a boundary, not a demand or ultimatum. It’s assertive but not aggressive or combative. There is no threatening label of boyfriend, or commitment, or exclusivity, or anything. It instantly commanded respect from me.

The Caveat

Every successful relationship I’ve ever seen began with a DTR that was easy, even joyous. You do not want a reluctant boyfriend. If a guy is saying, “I don’t think I want a relationship right now” or “I don’t think I’d make a very good boyfriend,” take him at his word. Run, don’t walk, away!

I’ve seen women trapped in a regular hookup give the ultimatum “We’re in one, or we’re done.” Sometimes it worked, and the guy agreed to date. But in every single instance, it was a bad relationship, characterized by fights, jealousy and a lot of sketchy behavior. A guy who doesn’t want to be in a relationship and reluctantly agrees is in it for the sex alone. That’s reason enough to drive on. 

A guy who likes you and wants to be in a relationship is going to happily agree to your escalating emotionally when he escalates sexually. Time after time young women have told me that when they finally met the right guy, the DTR took about 30 seconds. Both of them jumped off the high dive together. 

Trust me, that’s the only kind of boyfriend you really want. 

  • SayWhaat

    Great tip. Communicating your boundaries seems way more effective and decisive than a hesitant “so, uh…what are we?” 🙂

  • In the first instance you cite, one might well ask why she continues to make out with someone who has never asked her out on a date. Sorry to sound rather old-fashioned here, but to continue to engage in sexually intimate activities without his having shown any interest in anything more is foolish.
    If a couple starts out with a great make out session, as described, and the man does not do more than ask for more of the same, it might be better to take a step backwards before having an awkward conversation. Among the reasons why the conversation is awkward: if she continues to make out with someone who has never asked her on a date she has already told him that she does not expect anything more. Thus, her conversational foray will be inconsistent with her behavior.

  • Ted

    The DTR for my current relationship took about 15 seconds. I asked her, she said yes, and that was that. This was almost 2 years ago and we’re as happy as ever.

    I’d had really awkward DTR attempts before that which never ended well. If it’s the right person, then it should just be easy.

  • JPM

    Women decide if there will be sex, men decide if there will be a relationship.

    It’s that simple. Really. We – both genders – obfuscate that one sentence, for many reasons, but the essential reality is unchanging.

    Ladies, lay him right, lay him fabulously, and he will want more. If you’re pretty and a great lay he will want much more of you. If you’re also a genuinely nice gal – kind, caring, not a harpy or a slut – eventually he will want you to himself, and will tolerate monogamy as the price of that.

    All there is to is. Really. Assuming you want a good guy who tends alpha, perhaps even a high-beta with alpha tendencies. Because who wants real betas or less? No attractive young women I know ….

  • Man

    Don’t get me wrong – it’s not that women want to have sex before monogamy. They want nothing more than to have sex within the context of a relationship. The problem is that they’re often unsure about whether they’ve reached that point, and they hate, hate, hate having to initiate the DTR, i.e. “Define the Relationship talk.”

    A guy who likes you and wants to be in a relationship is going to happily agree to your escalating emotionally when he escalates sexually. Time after time young women have told me that when they finally met the right guy, the DTR took about 30 seconds. Both of them jumped off the high dive together. Trust me, that’s the only kind of boyfriend you really want.

    I understand how tricky this can be for women, just as it can be “tricky” for men to be the “Gatekeeper of commitment” (I wonder if I should feel honored). But could you elaborate a bit further on the last two paragraphs. It sounds like you ended where you started. 🙂 But I think I am getting it: the alchemy of love. 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    Ladies, lay him right, lay him fabulously, and he will want more.

    You haven’t been reading here for long, have you? 🙂

  • JPM

    Nope, followed a link …. clearly too much truth for female ears. 🙂

  • Josh

    So the ideal has gone from “no sex until marriage” to “no sex until monogamy.”

    • So the ideal has gone from “no sex until marriage” to “no sex until monogamy.”

      The National Marriage Project estimates that 50% of the Pilgrims had premarital sex, based on examination of marriage and birth records. Today, 2/3 of the American public approves of premarital sex, and many who don’t approve still indulge. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    Never had this conversation. I don’t know if that’s just me or if it was the times, probably both.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Said it before:

    Back in the day, half a century ago, I was a fraternity grad adviser. Hooked up, so to speak, with that part of the Dean of Students office. The Word was to watch guys who’d been dumped. Watch for self-destructive behavior.
    Losing what had been a woman’s strongly positive feelings toward you was infinitely worse than not getting laid recently.
    So, actually, women have two items to offer or withhold.
    Now, of course, if a woman has strongly positive feelings for a guy, figuring out a way to withhold them would be tough.
    But the point is, you don’t have just sex as an attractor.
    Guys WANT to be liked/loved. It practically, or actually, kills them to lose it.
    I’d be feeling guilty if I thought I was telling women how many cards they hold, except I know none of them will believe me.

  • Ted

    @Josh

    Yeah pretty much. Marriage is so far delayed in our society that people aren’t willing to wait that long to have sex. It’s pretty easy to realize, though, that sex without some kind of commitment generally leaves people unsatisfied.

  • BuenaVista

    “The attraction is strong, you’ve made out and gone a bit beyond … But he hasn’t said anything about dating, and you wish he would before he tries for sex! Because if he doesn’t, you’re going to have to call a halt in the middle of a passionate makeout and ask him, “What are we doing?”

    I am somewhat incredulous in regard to this scenario, which may be a function of the female cohort I date (30-45) but I don’t think so. (Roles are basically reversed: the women are the sexual aggressors.) They are, by and large far, far more desperate for a LTR than the college set and at the same time that they get less sex than kids in the hook-up culture; so perhaps there is merit in my comment: they have more to lose by sending out I’m DTF signals when what they want is an exclusive relationship.

    a. if the kissing is open mouth and passionate, and the hands are wandering, the relationship is already sexual. It’s just a matter of when oral or intercourse begins. So why not, if the ambiguity of dating for a relationship and dating for sport-effing is the central problem, take your time on the open mouth kissing and heavy petting? This is just another example, to me, of a woman being overtly sexual and then trying to tell herself and someone else “I’m not really like that.” Incredibly annoying. Own your own behavior. If you have some guys hands inside your bra, you *are* like that, and it’s because you like it. You can’t turn around and say you’re shocked, shocked the dude wants to get it on. And you can’t say that you’re frustrated because you want a LTR and he turned out to be a sportsman. His hand is inside your underwear. You’re already having sex, context unknown.

    b. If you want a man to buzz off, let him kiss your cheek, the universal betastisizing gesture.

    c. If you want a man to respect your limits, and you want a LTR, kiss him on the lips, mouth closed and squeeze him hard in a sincere hug for a few seconds. Remember, men don’t get touched except in sexual activity. Hugs are great if they are sincere and they are not the obvious beta brushoff where the woman has her butt three feet back and her nose six inches to the side while she air-kisses you. Get close, let him smell your hair and your perfume. Ruffle his hair, something that our mothers might have done and no one does any more. Break it off, step back, take a deep breath, thank him for the evening, and hit the bricks. With luck, he’ll stop you and plead for sex or something, which will save you the bother of precipitating the discussion. There are three things that can be said, in the discussion, all variations on GM:

    i. “I think you’re hot but I only see people exclusively. And we haven’t had that discussion.” Note: don’t have the discussion then.

    ii. “I think you’re hot but I don’t share, and I don’t have sex unless I’ve talked about health issues first, and we haven’t had that discussion.” Note: don’t have the discussion then.

    iii. “I think you’re hot but we don’t know each other yet, and I want to know you better.” This postpones really slamming the dude with the DTR conversation.

    c. This is not some The Rules b.s. about being hard to get. You’re just communicating expectation with unambiguous behavior, topped off with a mature statement of preference. You prefer to be in a relationship, so no, we’re not going to go have sex in an alley now.

    d. If any human seques from fun heavy kissing to real live sex, ad hoc, s/he has not had the sexual health discussion, and if you’re not smart enough to do that, you may not be smart enough to ride the bus to work.

    I had dinner last week with an ex-girlfriend, who is one of the more sexual people I’ve ever met. (Something about a gynecologist, there ain’t going to be any shame or confusion about the purpose of these here body parts.) It was a highly ambiguous sexual situation. We met in a restaurant in a town midway between our homes, where 2.5 years ago we once met for dinner before checking into a motel for circus-like activities. She’s in the process of blowing up her life by letting a boyfriend of four months move in with her. I couldn’t tell if she was eating dinner with me because she wanted me to stop her with the new boyfriend. (It was snowing and she was wearing a tank top of sorts and skin-tight jeans so I don’t know Einstein, perhaps a clue?) Anyway we had a lovely dinner, I didn’t move to win her back (I broke up with her 18 months ago), and in the end that’s how we kissed: on the lips, no tongue, sincere hug, deep breath, wistful parting, and on into the night. If I’d wanted to do the motel thing, I would have kissed her differently, followed her to the BMW, gotten in, and started with the mashing. If she was going to start the sexual motors, her mouth would have been open when she kissed me goodbye and she would have taken me to the car for heavy petting, and same deal: in both instances it would have been hotel-motel-no-tell time. And it was the absence of passionate open mouth kissing that clearly signaled that we would not be.

    When a woman gives me the open mouth kissing with hands-on-body that lasts and lasts, she is telling me that she wants to have sex. Always. Right now. In the car, in the restroom, in the plane: right fucking now. That was true of my ex- after 20 years of marriage, and that is true of any woman I date today. Excise that activity and you’ll find out if the guy is interested in a relationship, and you won’t get your wires crossed with a hook-up artist. As always, YMMV. But I date a lot, and I only date exclusively.

  • Tomato

    Gin’s advice is short, sweet, and to the point. If more men and women were so open then there would be far less relationship strife.

    /my husband had to convince ME to start our relationship, heh.

  • Zach

    @JPM

    Hah, the classic “magic vagina” advice. About the stupidest thing a girl can do. In fact, it’s even dumber for the best-looking women. Unless these women combine great sex and great looks with a great personality, they become trophies to be attained, not people to date. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve heard “yeah, I’d definitely fuck her, but no way would I date her, she’s [insert: crazy, stupid, drama queen, gold digger]”. And believe me, my friends are among the most successful young men around. Not a single one of them would date a trophy girlfriend. In fact, friends of ours who end up with these types of girls even for a regular hookup get mocked relentlessly for it. They may get props for getting her into bed, but they will get massively disrespected for dating her.

    Bottom line is that no guy with any options will date a girl just for the sex. He will date a girl for being a ” genuinely nice gal – kind, caring, not a harpy or a slut “. Looks and sex are what you’d call necessary factors, but not sufficient factors.

  • BuenaVista

    (Yes, it actually snowed in the midwest last Wednesday.)

  • Very good advice from Buenavista. I particularly liked:

    ” Own your own behavior. If you have some guys hands inside your bra, you *are* like that, and it’s because you like it. You can’t turn around and say you’re shocked, shocked the dude wants to get it on. And you can’t say that you’re frustrated because you want a LTR and he turned out to be a sportsman. His hand is inside your underwear. You’re already having sex, context unknown.”

    • His hand is inside your underwear. You’re already having sex, context unknown.”

      Not really. It’s absurd to claim “second base” is the same as rounding third and heading home. The conventional standard for “having sex” is P in V. In the last 20 years, most studies have added anal sex (rare) and oral sex (common).

  • BuenaVista

    JPM, the article is how to avoid confusion between casual and exclusive relationships. Not how to make an asshole PUA feel good about himself.

  • Zach

    @BuenaVista

    This is not the worst advice, but I don’t think it’s totally practicable, the reason being that there are a good number of guys who need some (sexual) encouragement before becoming exclusive. I don’t mean sleeping with the girl they’re seeing, but at least knowing that it’s going somewhere sexually. Especially in major cities, guys can be very wary of being used for $$ (dinners, drinks, etc), and so if a girl gives little to no sexual encouragement they can easily dismiss her as just being out for free meals. Also, if a guy has options, at least one of those options is likely to be moving things along sexually, and it’s hard to throw that aside for a girl who *might* be into him. I’ll say this though, your strategy will certainly weed out guys who are not dead set on being exclusive. However, I think will also weed out plenty of guys who are willing to be exclusive but require a bit of encouragement to do so. In my view, dating of any sort involves risk. Your strategy takes almost all of the risk out for women, but limits the pool of potential partners a lot. It’d be as if I only went on dates with girls who split the check. I’d be pretty sure of the fact she was serious about me, but I’d be massively limiting the girls I could date. So I see it as:

    Strategy BV (yours): 1,000 potential partners, 90% relationship rate

    Other strategy: 50,000 potential partners, 25% relationship rate

    As in I see sexual access strategies (of which yours is one) as creating a tradeoff between potential partners and success at landing those partners. My point is I don’t think your strategy is at the optimal place on that curve (think of the curves like classic supply/demand, where you’re trying to find an equilibrium).

  • JPM

    Zach: Nice way to put all kinds of words in my (proverbial) mouth.

    When did I mention magic vaginas or trophy girlfriends? What are you, 14?

    And a helpful hint for you: Successful men do not need to brag about how successful their friends – and by extension they – are.

    No man of quality with options will hang around, much less commit, if the sex isn’t top-notch. Men who disagree with that please stand up, because you are lower betas.

  • Zach

    @JPM

    “Ladies, lay him right, lay him fabulously, and he will want more. If you’re pretty and a great lay he will want much more of you. ”

    Great sex= seduce him with your vagina
    Pretty= hot

    Hot girls without anything else are trophy girlfriends. You got your order mixed up. As I said, great sex is a NECESSARY condition, but not SUFFICIENT. As in no matter how great the sex is, if you’re not worth spending time with personality-wise (which you mention as “If you’re also a genuinely nice gal – kind, caring, not a harpy or a slut”), it doesn’t work. So the advice should be: focus on being a genuinely nice, interesting gal. Because that’s how you’ll get a relationship. Pretty girls are a dime a dozen, and girls who are good in bed are generally even more common. A girl who is those things and is nice, interesting and fun? That’s what’s rare.

    I’m not bragging. I’m saying I know from experience. You’re talking about guys who have options. I’m saying I have a lot of experience observing and spending time with guys who have options.

    Yes, I’m 14. My friends are all very successful at Call of Duty. That’s what I meant.

  • BuenaVista

    A way to flirt and definitely be memorable:

    “I don’t share.”

    “What do you mean.”

    “I don’t share.”

    “Share what?”

    /Points at man’s package, smiles broadly.

    “That.” This is overtly sexy to man at the same time very, very clear about the woman’s desire to be more than another notch. “We’re either going to date, or we’re not, but I only do exclusive. Time for me to go home now. Walk me home?”

    An actress did this to me at the reservoir in Central Park once, and I did walk her to her home on CPW. I managed to remain standing but my pupils still dilate when I think about it. There was zero ambiguity where we were going sexually, and zero ambiguity about the expectations she had.

    It became a kind of private joke for us; we’d be out for dinner with friends and people would offer to share plates. “Oh no,” one of us would say. “We don’t share.” Total foreplay. Should have married her.

    • A way to flirt and definitely be memorable:

      “I don’t share.”

      “What do you mean.”

      “I don’t share.”

      “Share what?”

      /Points at man’s package, smiles broadly.

      “That.” This is overtly sexy to man at the same time very, very clear about the woman’s desire to be more than another notch. “We’re either going to date, or we’re not, but I only do exclusive. Time for me to go home now. Walk me home?”

      Love it!

  • Zach

    @BuenaVista

    Fair point, and good example of how to do it. I would just add that she’d better be proving herself in other ways (personality, sexiness) to make the guy wait for that promised land. Otherwise it’s a bit like an ultimatum strategy, and I generally find those to be non-starters.

  • BuenaVista

    JPM: since evidently you are very experienced, in life, work and love, and are -super-super-alpha, what is the longest relationship you’ve ever had? (I mean, with a woman?)

    This is an article about removing sexual ambiguity and clearly indicating to men whether one wants sexy time or a LTR. It is not a piece about making asshole PUAs feel good about themselves. Any woman who makes her sexual expertise the center of her appeal to men will ride the carousel. Then she’ll be discarded, or she’ll have to option herself to the minors (“settle”) because she’s wasted her youth trying to be a sexual athlete for dicks. Great sex skills are useful, sort of like grammar or the ability to tell the truth. They’re also not very hard to learn, and should never be what you say they are: the critical path item to male commitment. That’s because we want our madonnas to be whores, and we know that no whore can ever be our madonna. You’ve got it backwards.

  • BuenaVista

    I agree on ‘ultimatums’: if I’m so much as told to telephone, or else, at a certain time, I’m gone. Boss your cleaning lady around.

    It’s probably a generational thing that causes my blind spot. I cannot imagine why a slowly building tempo of sexual tension over a few weeks is too slow for millenials. I read about it, of course, but it’s profoundly fucked up if true. I here ignore the PUAs, because their nihilism transitions to despair (Roosh V), and their objective function (frequent randomized sex combined with immaculate emotional alienation) doesn’t inform Susan’s topic here.

    On OKC, most of the women I’ve dated say that they only have sex after 3-5, or over 5, dates. (This is one of the questions and I always look it up.) None of them ever “consider” having sex on the first date. Oh really? Bullshit: this is not true, in my experience. I’d say the mean is 2.5 dates. It’s never more than 3. That means a lot of them jump me, or try to jump me, the first night. The woman I’m seeing now, who is no slouch in the worldly achievement category (McKinsey consultant), invited me into the bathroom one hour after we met for Sunday afternoon drinks, in broad fucking daylight in a packed upscale restaurant; we weren’t in no biker bar. (I demurred, being demur, but my eyes dilated.) In general, therefore, I think women want LTRs but self-sabotage by signaling bad-girl aptitudes. (I’m an outlier, I think, because sex is important to me and I don’t consider a sexual overture to mean the woman is just there for the bang.) The time to roll out the bad girl skills is after the frame for the dating relationship is made clear. If a man finds a woman who is delightful, interesting and mature during the day, and truly fucking insane in the sack, the only problem for the female will be getting some alone time. Seriously. A young guy might go all puppy dog on her and cause her to lose her interest in him. That’s the inverse of the problem at hand.

    Also, if her personality and looks or sexiness are not enough to attract a guy without fucking him immediately, so much the better, right? That is, if she’s looking for a LTR. If I’m in a sales situation, I give the prospect as many reasons as I can to say no to me, as quickly as possible. I want them to articulate the reasons for buying my stuff, which trains them to think the way I would like, and I don’t want to waste time if they cannot.

  • J

    @Gin Martini

    There are two valid answers you want to hear – “yes, and it stops right now,” or “no.” Why do I recommend this approach? It’s stated as a boundary, not a demand or ultimatum. It’s assertive but not aggressive or combative. There is no threatening label of boyfriend, or commitment, or exclusivity, or anything. It instantly commanded respect from me.

    THIS!

    No one can effectively give an utimatum because no one can ever truly affect what another person feels, but we can control our own behavior and set our own limits. Yor wife was smart, that’s why you respected her.

    Every successful relationship I’ve ever seen began with a DTR that was easy, even joyous. ….Time after time young women have told me that when they finally met the right guy, the DTR took about 30 seconds. Both of them jumped off the high dive together.

    Yep. You know the relationship is real when there are no games.

  • This is sound advice. I have been in that spot a few times where I just have to suck it up and initiate that talk, and a couple times the guy initiated it with me. A couple guys initiated it with me which shocked the hell out of me. One of them did it before he had hooked up and the other did it after hooking up a few times (which shocked me even more because he got sex and still wanted to have me as his girlfriend which showed me that he really liked me).

  • BuenaVista

    Zach, on the whole “show him some leg so he knows to stick around” thing, I completely agree about the concern at being used for drinks, dinners and hotel rooms. I really loathe the way most of the educated post-feminist women I see sit on their fucking hands when the check comes, then say, “Are you sure I can’t help? /bats eyelashes).”

    However, are the millenials really completely blind to sexual tension? I thought that sexual tension was what made life worth living; it’s often better than the sex itself.

    Also, if a woman is concerned that she not get branded a dinner-and-drinks moocher, all she has to do is set another brick in the frame that is the potential foundation of the relationship:

    “Hey, great time tonight. Promise me one thing. We’re going to alternate paying. Let’s not split checks, that’s for secretaries at Applebees, but promise me we’re going to take turns. And guess what, ha-ha. I have less money than you so I’m going to have to introduce you to some cheaper venues. Like my own kitchen.”

    Getting used for entertainment happens a LOT with the older women and I have essentially stopped taking them out to dinner for first dates, which is a shame. They brought it on themselves, though.

  • Zach

    @J

    “but we can control our own behavior and set our own limits. Yor wife was smart, that’s why you respected her.”

    Great point. I’ve had women in the past who have said to me that they were not comfortable with hooking up with me with no path to anything else, and so either it was going to move that way or they’d have to stop. It was never an ultimatum, it was just stating what they were and weren’t comfortable with. I had, and have, the utmost respect for these women. They recognized that I wasn’t giving them what they wanted (a relationship) and articulated that. There was no begging, not cajoling, no yelling. Just a simple “this is what I want, and if you won’t give to me this is going to have to stop”. There’s nothing that demands respect more than someone who respects herself. That’s not to say I started dating these women, but I never objected or tried to talk them out of it. I’d made it clear I didn’t want a relationship and they’d made it clear they didn’t want what I was selling. So much more powerful than keeping quiet and hoping things turn out well.

  • Lokland

    @Stuart, 2

    “Thus, her conversational foray will be inconsistent with her behaviour.”

    +1
    Incongruence will put a knife through the heart of any budding relationship.

    —————

    Our DTR was simple and easy. She asked, I said yes, FB official shortly thereafter.

    Sex and DTR were nearly coincident.
    Sex at night, DTR the following morning.

    ————

    • Sex and DTR were nearly coincident.
      Sex at night, DTR the following morning.

      She got lucky – she went off the high dive, and it went her way. Strictly speaking, the sex was casual, or no-strings. If you’d said, no relationship, she would have been N +1.

  • J

    Ladies, lay him right, lay him fabulously, and he will want more. If you’re pretty and a great lay he will want much more of you.

    Yeah. Much more sex.

    If you’re also a genuinely nice gal – kind, caring, not a harpy or a slut – eventually he will want you to himself, and will tolerate monogamy as the price of that.

    Or perhaps, he’ll enjoy your sweet disposition while banging someone else on the side. You know, while tolerating you.

    Or, conversely ladies, you could hold out for a guy who loves you.

    • will tolerate monogamy as the price of that.

      Never enter a relationship with a man who is willing to “tolerate” monogamy. The long-term prospects are extremely poor.

  • J

    Never had this conversation. I don’t know if that’s just me or if it was the times, probably both.

    You did, but it was so quick and not dramatic you don’t recall. If you and the wife were anything like DH and I, it went like this:

    Dating anyone else?

    No. You?

    No.

    Good. Wanna be exclusive?

    Thought you never ask.

  • Jonny

    The woman who has to do the “Define the Relationship talk.” has sent mixed messages from the beginning. She won’t get what she wants since she treated the initial date or dates as casual unserious encounters. If she wants to a serious relationship, expectations should be expressed. It is incorrect to assume the guy will just step up. Maybe he won’t; however, I suspect there is good reason for him to show reluctance. What if she is only good for a lay? Or maybe I’m not what she want. What she want is to be a princess and not a wife.

    Many times, women do the DTR since she is always faster and wants quicker results. This is a mistake. Men are not so fast. He is still evaluating her and not even sure he likes her. He was much further away from loving her.

    Forcing a DTR will only lead to disappointment. What if he gives in to DTR? She still loses. He can easily lie, get the sex, then thing change conveniently.

  • tilikum

    J, its 2013, no shortage of guys who will love you, its just that you aren’t attracted to them.

    the ones you are attracted to you have to convince to stay monogamous.

    are you new?

  • J

    There’s nothing that demands respect more than someone who respects herself.

    Exactly. Of course, the woman has to be able to take that risk and be strong enough to handle the disappointment of not getting the guy. She has to be “strong and independent” as the ‘sphere is wont to criticize. But men really do find that attractive, IME.

    That’s not to say I started dating these women, but I never objected or tried to talk them out of it. I’d made it clear I didn’t want a relationship and they’d made it clear they didn’t want what I was selling. So much more powerful than keeping quiet and hoping things turn out well.

    Yep. And it’s easier to get over a guy than it is to get over being a doormat. That sort of behavior kills your soul.

  • Eoin MacAodh

    I would bet that the DTR talk is harder to have, and the temptation to just risk it and screw is much stronger, if the guys is more attractive/alpha. Given that Susan advises girls to go for those Greater Beta types, one wonders if the inability to force oneself to have that talk isn’t a sign the guy is too alpha to keep.

    • I would bet that the DTR talk is harder to have, and the temptation to just risk it and screw is much stronger, if the guys is more attractive/alpha. Given that Susan advises girls to go for those Greater Beta types, one wonders if the inability to force oneself to have that talk isn’t a sign the guy is too alpha to keep.

      We’ve already disproved the apex fallacy, so this comment doesn’t really make sense. Most DTR conversations occur with non-alpha men, by definition.

  • Escoffier

    J, no, not even that. I knew, or assumed, she was not seeing anyone else, and I suppose ditto for her. It helped that we were both in the same graduate program, with a very small circle-within-a-circle of people who socialized rather incestuously and so if eiher had someone, we would have known about it.

  • J

    Guys WANT to be liked/loved. It practically, or actually, kills them to lose it.
    I’d be feeling guilty if I thought I was telling women how many cards they hold, except I know none of them will believe me.

    Don’t feel so bad. It’s not that big a secret. 😉 It’s just a matter of finding mutual liking and that gets tricky and discouraging.

  • It seems that there is a correlation between birthrates and taxes :

    When we asked the computer to look at population, there was a remarkable correlation to taxation. The higher the taxes, the lower the birth rate. Indeed, this applied in both ancient and modern times.

    (later)

    American young women in their ’20s are moving back to the way marriage use to be before socialism and still tends to be in the old Iron Curtain nations. They are starting to prefer established men 15-20 years their senior. The Hollywood image of love at first site has led to the highest divorce rate in human history as expectations of perfection prove unrealistic. Generally, the over 30 women were raised by the Women Libbers of the ’60s and tend to be more independent seeking men their own age.

    This has sparked research into the whole age difference. It turns out that the older man and younger women match results in men living longer. Of course this gets the women furious, but perhaps the problem has been not just socialism, but this image of love at first sight spawned by Hollywood. The younger women keep the men active longer whereas a couple the same age slow down together.

    Megaman, can you do a correlation between tax rates and birthrates ?

  • SayWhaat

    J, its 2013, no shortage of guys who will love you, its just that you aren’t attracted to them.

    the ones you are attracted to you have to convince to stay monogamous.

    are you new?

    She isn’t, but you are. We’ve busted that myth extensively.

    Susan, I know it’s been said before, but a “FAQ”-style comprehensive post busting dearly-held beliefs might be worthwhile, especially for newcomers.

  • J

    No, tillikum, you’re new. I’m old enough to have been monogamous with the same guy for over a quarter of a century. I just have a long memory that includes sex not being enough to hold a relationship together. Can’t let JPM bullshit the kiddies into believing that a guy is going to be monogamous just cuz a girl gives a nice bj and smiles pretty. Not that those aren’t good skills to have, they are just not enough. I stick with my advice that the ladies should hold out for love. 😉

  • SayWhaat

    She has to be “strong and independent” as the ‘sphere is wont to criticize. But men really do find that attractive, IME.

    Co-signed. My ex liked it whenever I was in a “take charge, get things done” mode. However, he withdrew when I became what he thought was overly affectionate. Every guy is different.

  • Vae Victus

    Here”s the thing: why should a guy stick around after a girl has given it up? The ONLY reason is because he knows he can get it again.

    Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?

    Why can’t women get that through their heads?

  • Gin Martini

    To set the record completely straight: she said this after sex. My opinion, in the original post, was that you want to deploy this either soon before, or soon after sex — and it’s your choice which depending on your risk tolerance.

    It’s a no-sex-without-monogamy strategy, not before/after.

    • It’s a no-sex-without-monogamy strategy, not before/after.

      If she said it after sex, it’s a no-more-sex without monogamy strategy. She’s already had sex without monogamy.

  • SayWhaat

    Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?

    Why can’t women get that through their heads?

    Who are these guys talking to? Do any of them actually read this blog?

  • J

    It’s a no-sex-without-monogamy strategy, not before/after.

    That’s a choice. Women need to carefully assess what gambles they are willing to take. If a woman realizes that she is the sort to be hurt by losing that bet, shouldn’t play that game.

  • Zach

    @SayWhaat

    “Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?”

    As crude as the idea sounds it’s not a dumb one. To get the guy to buy the cow without the milk, you’d better be offering some great cookies along the way, along with the promise of lots of milk to come after the purchase. Without that, quite a few guys will function with this mindset.

    @VaeVictus

    On the other hand, a ton of guys (in fact the vast majority) are more interested in the cow than the milk. Especially those who’ve had tons of milk. Milk loses a lot of its appeal. It’s generally those who don’t get much milk who place such a high value on it.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Zach:

    “Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?”

    As crude as the idea sounds it’s not a dumb one.

    No, I get that. What I don’t get is why guys show up here railing against women who aren’t even making it an argument to begin with.

  • Birthrates and taxes…seems like their may be a positive feedback loop, aka a vicious circle, between these two things.

    Higher taxes, past a certain level, will tend to drive a lower birthrate because less money is left available for taking care of the kids.

    A lower birthrate, in a society where old-age expenses are partly or completely socialized, will tend to drive higher taxes because of the increased ratio of pensioners to working-age people.

  • J

    one wonders if the inability to force oneself to have that talk isn’t a sign the guy is too alpha to keep.

    Good point. However, you’re on the wrong blog. No alpha chasers here.

  • J

    Especially those who’ve had tons of milk. Milk loses a lot of its appeal. It’s generally those who don’t get much milk who place such a high value on it.

    Take a guess as to where these newbies are wandering in from.

  • Jonathan

    BV:
    Getting used for entertainment happens a LOT with the older women and I have essentially stopped taking them out to dinner for first dates, which is a shame.

    BTDT. Happens almost every time if you allow it to, and if you do allow it you are getting played just like a woman who wants a relationship but lets every hot guy sleep with her on the first date. Patrice O’Neill was spot-on about this. The modern dinner date is an own-goal shit test. Better to meet up mid-afternoon or after dinner for coffee or ice cream. If she flakes or insists on dinner she fails the test.

  • tilikum

    j,

    yeah this isn’t the 70s, 80s, or 90s anymore and the last 4 years has seen the quality of females drop like a rock.

    im 38 and date 22-26 normally because… i can.

    in 4 years 2 women have asked me how I am, how my day was. 2 women, 4 years, ages 22-34.

    but your right, its me.

  • Jonny

    Simple rule of thumb. Don’t do the talk. Don’t do the sex. Instead, ask if he is looking for a future wife. If not, the relationship should end by the third date. No ackward sex request or hot makeout sessions.

  • mr. wavevector

    Every successful relationship I’ve ever seen began with a DTR that was easy, even joyous. You do not want a reluctant boyfriend.

    I heartily endorse this.

    I’m not sure my wife and I even had an initial DTR. We had one of these relationships where everything was just amazingly right from the start. I knew after the first date I was going to make this woman my wife.

    I proceeded to sweep her off her feet. There was no doubt in her mind what I wanted. I wanted the milk, the cow, the tractor, the barn …

    I clearly remember the DTR before I moved in though. It went like this. Her: “Are we serious?” Me: “Yes. Totally serious.”

  • Zach

    @tilikum

    I’m curious as to exactly what type of 22-26 yo you’re dating. Basically every girl I know is 23-28, all very smart and interesting people (basically all went to top 20 universities). Only one of them has ever dated a guy who’s more than 5-6 years older. In that case it was so weird and unusual that she got never-ending shit for it, and everyone else thought her boyfriend was really creepy. So yeah, I’m sure you can date plenty of girls who are 22 and looking for sugar daddies, but the interesting, smart, ambitious ones? I don’t see it. I also can’t imagine what YOU get out of such a relationship besides a tighter body to fuck. None of my friends (I’m 26) will even date college girls (some of whom are 21-22) because of the maturity/experience gap, no matter how hot they are. When we hear NYU/Columbia at a bar, we put them into two categories: one night stand or no thanks. It’s just not worth hearing some girl prattle on about her poli sci class for an hour.

  • J

    im 38 and date 22-26 normally because… i can.

    I know, all you hot, middle-aged ‘spherians do. That’s why it’s so surprising you guys have so much time to spend bitching on the net. So much p*ssy, so little happiness……makes me wonder.

    in 4 years 2 women have asked me how I am, how my day was. 2 women, 4 years, ages 22-34.

    Actually, I’m sure there’s no shortage of girls who will love you, its just that you aren’t attracted to them. 😉

    But seriously, the sort of early 20s girl who dates a man over 35 isn’t in it because she is worried about the quality of your day.

    • im 38 and date 22-26 normally because… i can.

      I know, all you hot, middle-aged ‘spherians do.

      ROFL

  • Lokland

    @J

    “one wonders if the inability to force oneself to have that talk isn’t a sign the guy is too alpha to keep.

    Good point. However, you’re on the wrong blog. No alpha chasers here.”

    Replace alpha with value-SMV.
    I get the feeling the reason some women are hesitant to have the DTR is because they already know the answer.

    I’d also propose that most of the couples who have a smooth DTR are relatively similar in SMV-MMV.

    @mr WV

    “I’m not sure my wife and I even had an initial DTR. We had one of these relationships where everything was just amazingly right from the start. I knew after the first date I was going to make this woman my wife.”

    Ahh the good ole days before relationships were only real after they went up on Facebook.

    I would argue that a DTR is pretty much necessary because posting your in a relationship without discussing it is somewhat…psychotic? And a relationship isn’t official until its on FB.

    Least thats how it worked amongst my social group.

  • SayWhaat

    When we hear NYU/Columbia at a bar, we put them into two categories: one night stand or no thanks.

    Haha, ouch. So much for those poor girls who had hoped to escape hookup culture by dating older. 🙂

  • This is comical. There’s a very simple way to “Define the relationship.” The Georgia Satellites had it all worked out a long time ago.

  • BuenaVista

    You know, Jonathon? Buzz off. I like to take women out for dinner, because I like the conversation, food and color. I like to see people I work with or know from the media in the same space. It reminds me of when I was happily married and we had our own table at our favorite restaurant. The anti-dinner Game prejudice is fine, but the people who wrote the rules of game are likely suicides, overt Christian converts, or hospital patients with bizarre STD portfolios.

    But I don’t do it anymore. Because I have been used too many times. The women have destroyed another little corner of civility. It has nothing to do with some scribbling PUA’s lack of a wardrobe, own home, education or issues with women, which you are reciting by rote. So buzz off.

  • BuenaVista

    Does anyone know why a lot (three today) of posts just disappear?

    I’m a software guy, it’s not user error. I just did an experiment and posted without the nasty word, it disappeared.

    • @BV

      Sorry the filter caught your comments today. I’ve whitelisted you, so it shouldn’t happen again.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Lockland,

    I would argue that a DTR is pretty much necessary because posting your in a relationship without discussing it is somewhat…psychotic?

    Makes sense. But that already presumes you have a relationship you want to announce, doesn’t it?

    Is there a FB relationship status for “free milk”?

  • SayWhaat

    BV, a lot of times the spam filter acts up and catches random comments. Susan can fix it.

  • SayWhaat

    Is there a FB relationship status for “free milk”?

    “It’s complicated.”

  • Lokland

    “Is there a FB relationship status for “free milk”?”

    Its complicated.

  • SayWhaat

    LOL, jinx! 🙂

  • Tomato

    “I know, all you hot, middle-aged ‘spherians do. That’s why it’s so surprising you guys have so much time to spend bitching on the net. So much p*ssy, so little happiness……makes me wonder.”

    Daaaaaaaaaaamn.

  • Emily

    >> “Is there a FB relationship status for “free milk”?

    >“It’s complicated.”
    ————–

    LOL!

  • Emily

    When I was trying to figure out exactly what to say in order to “DTR” my boyfriend, I finally decided that he either wants a relationship or he doesn’t, so I might as well just get it over with. I basically just waited until we were having a cuddly moment and then I randomly interjected “…so… …am I your girlfriend?” And he was pretty much like “sure, why not?” It turns out that he had already been going around calling me his girlfriend. 😛 We’ve been together for almost two years now. 😀

  • BuenaVista

    SW: thanks.

  • mr. wavevector

    It’s complicated

    I like this list of status options better.

  • Zuckercorn

    BV, I can’t say how common it is among Generation Y, but I have a hell of a time noticing flirting that isn’t ridiculously blatant. Come to think of it, social interactions in general tend to have a steep learning curve for me.

    Regarding our previous interaction, I recognize that my comments were probably both boorish and unkind and that they should not have been written and delivered with such haste before considering the emotional impact they might have had on others. If poking fun at my autism would serve as a balm for any distress I may have caused you, please avail yourself of the opportunity.

  • Plain Jain

    ““I won’t [hook up with] anyone who’s seeing other people. Are you?””

    Gin Martini, “There are two valid answers you want to hear – “yes, and it stops right now,”
    ___

    This is disingenuous. How can another relationship “stop right now” when he is making out with another woman all the while the other girl whom its going to “stop right now” with is thinking he is HER boyfriend.

    The fact of life is – it stops when it stops. And that is not until he and that other chick has had the “breakup talk”. And there is NO GUARANTEE that the breakup talk will actually result in a break up!

    The best advice is NOT to get involved in the first place with a guy when there is any question at all of “are you seeing someone else”.

    Just get with guys who ARE NOT seeing anyone from the get go.

  • Bully

    J,

    “Actually, I’m sure there’s no shortage of girls who will love you, its just that you aren’t attracted to them”

    So your solution is for him to date women that he’s not attracted to?

    That always ends well.

  • Plain Jain

    Bully, “So your solution is for him to date women that he’s not attracted to?”

    This is NOT the Manosphere. Therefore you won’t see J or anyone else advising people to date unattractive men (or women).

    There are tips here for people on how to become MORE attractive so that a wider range of people will become attracted to them, hopefully even those people who they find attractive.

  • Plain Jain

    “I know, all you hot, middle-aged ‘spherians do. That’s why it’s so surprising you guys have so much time to spend bitching on the net. So much p*ssy, so little happiness……makes me wonder.”

    ” Daaaaaaaaaaamn.”

    People over 40 shouldn’t be dating. Period.

  • Plain Jain

    “So the ideal has gone from “no sex until marriage” to “no sex until monogamy.””

    Without sex before marriage a woman cannot determine if she is sexually compatible with her future husband. Heck, I know of some arrange marriage scenarios where the husband endied up not even having a working member of parliament!

  • This is definitely the stance I took when I was dating.

    And when we (IC, my husband, and I) did have the exclusivity talk – it was really quick and simple.

  • Plain Jain

    “Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?”

    “As crude as the idea sounds it’s not a dumb one. To get the guy to buy the cow without the milk, you’d better be offering some great cookies along the way, along with the promise of lots of milk to come after the purchase. Without that, quite a few guys will function with this mindset.”

    – There’s absolutely no reason for either sex to buy the cow (marriage) unless they both plan on having children and raising a family together OR already have children and are looking for another adult to co-parent with them. Although that is problematic in itself because it presupposes single parent dating which in many cases is a form of child neglect, if not outright child abuse.

  • Plain Jain

    Stuart Schneiderman May 6, 2013 at 10:54 am

    In the first instance you cite, one might well ask why she continues to make out with someone who has never asked her out on a date. Sorry to sound rather old-fashioned here, but to continue to engage in sexually intimate activities without his having shown any interest in anything more is foolish.
    If a couple starts out with a great make out session, as described, and the man does not do more than ask for more of the same, it might be better to take a step backwards before having an awkward conversation. Among the reasons why the conversation is awkward: if she continues to make out with someone who has never asked her on a date she has already told him that she does not expect anything more. Thus, her conversational foray will be inconsistent with her behavior.
    ________________

    I agree with Stuart. There are times when we just want a good makeout session and nothing more. At these times we makeout with people who want the same.

    When we are ready for a relationship however, we must target people who want the same.

    Put your feelers out for both at the appropriate times.

    Sometimes there’s an overlap, but more often than not, there isn’t.

    For everything turn, turn, turn. There is a season turn, turn, turn. And a time for every purpose under heaven.

    🙂

  • VD

    Every successful relationship I’ve ever seen began with a DTR that was easy, even joyous.

    Not to snowflake, but SB and I still haven’t talked about our relationship or being exclusive. Although there was a proposal and that wedding thing. It is true, though, that the more serious the relationship, the less game-playing there is. In our case, we started hanging out together and just never stopped.

    • Not to snowflake, but SB and I still haven’t talked about our relationship or being exclusive. Although there was a proposal and that wedding thing. It is true, though, that the more serious the relationship, the less game-playing there is. In our case, we started hanging out together and just never stopped.

      This is one area where mating has really changed. The DTR is a ubiquitous feature that launches relationships. The convo has to be had, for several reasons. For starters, making the relationship Facebook official requires consent by both parties, obviously. Also, heavy reliance on “don’t ask, don’t tell,” both by males and females, makes going with the flow quite risky from an emotional standpoint. In the era of hookup culture, it is important to make expectations and boundaries clear.

  • Anna

    I made the mistake of DTRing by asking “are you sleeping with anyone else?” right before we were about to have sex on the 3rd date. He said no but seemed weirded out and I decided not to have sex with him. I really blew it. He stopped talking to me a few days later. I realized I had contributed to the physical escalation because I was really turned on even though I didn’t feel comfortable having sex on the 3rd date. The next time I dated someone I kept things away from the bedroom until the 5th date, which was actually after HE had DTRed.

    • @Anna

      I realized I had contributed to the physical escalation because I was really turned on even though I didn’t feel comfortable having sex on the 3rd date. The next time I dated someone I kept things away from the bedroom until the 5th date, which was actually after HE had DTRed.

      Good call! What a difference two dates can make! That’s a good strategy – give the guy the opportunity to lock it down. Several of the great relationships I’m aware of today had DTRs that came up naturally, and just served as a confirmation that they both considered themselves part of a couple.

  • Joe

    @PJ

    People over 40 shouldn’t be dating. Period.

    Since I met my wife at age 43 and married her three years later, I have a good, straightforward and logical counter argument. It goes like this…

    “Shut up, PJ.”

    • People over 40 shouldn’t be dating. Period.
      Since I met my wife at age 43 and married her three years later, I have a good, straightforward and logical counter argument. It goes like this…

      “Shut up, PJ.”

      Haha, Joe! That was a bizarre comment, even for PJ. She’s got to be pushing 40 herself.

  • Plain Jain

    “Since I met my wife at age 43 and married her three years later, I have a good, straightforward and logical counter argument. It goes like this…”

    No offense Joe, but I simply don’t get the point in dating or marrying mid-life, for the most part. I am open to hearing a good explanation though.

  • tilikum

    the only reason for a man my age to date a woman that age is on the off chance she hasn’t been giving away the milk for free for the few less years she has been in circulation. for her, its not a sugar daddy thing at all, i don’t pay for shit unless the girl has an exceptional personality and intelligence-both creative and emotional, no matter the age. it tends to be that (according to the girls I know) the guys are weak sauce little whiners who can’t change a damned tire. keep in mind i stomp around Tempe AZ and ASU.

    i’ll say it again.

    i can do everything i need for myself. make money, be independent, protect myself, be a parent, pretty much everything most women DONT want to do for themselves. what i am looking for is just a nice girl who understands the risk a man takes in 2013 to have a monogamous relationship with a woman…much less marriage or kids…and just shows a shred of appreciation for it and wont abuse the contribution.

    relationships require both parties make concessions towards a shared goal, and quite honestly women do a pretty miserable job even understanding what a man gives up, they just know they don’t want to pay for it. I hear “its too hard” sooooo much. gross.

    and once they get entitled or make it the one sided “tilikum” show, they get dropped, and i just grab up another prospect at the grocery store. (ASU grocery stores are….OMG.. And the Target? forget about it)

    listen to Sue…be nice, act like a woman, don’t try to compete with men in their arenas, be happy with a man who wants to provide for your emotional and physical security, and escalate appropriately. make it a partnership. don’t and the guys you want just go back to banging 23 yo’s. shrug

    or don’t and buy cat food. I care less but i bet YOU do or you wouldn’t be reading this.

    • what i am looking for is just a nice girl who understands the risk a man takes in 2013 to have a monogamous relationship with a woman

      What risks are those? How are they different from the risks a girl takes?

  • Jackie

    @PJ

    Plain Jain, true love is always a worthy cause, and it doesn’t care what age you are. Here is a story for you:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/fashion/the-race-grows-sweeter-near-its-final-lap-modern-love.html?pagewanted=all

  • Jackie

    @tilikum

    Very interesting comments, tilikum. I seem to remember you commenting that your GF is 27 years old and you are very happy together? Does this mean you are poly, or in an open relationship?

    Also, have you ever considered that dating someone with life experience equivalent to yours — I understand you are divorced, after a difficult marriage– reminds you of the things you dislike?

  • Plain Jain

    Jackie, I read the article and this stood out;

    “OLD LOVE is different. In our 70s and 80s, we had been through enough of life’s ups and downs to know who we were, and we had learned to compromise. We knew something about death because we had seen loved ones die. The finish line was drawing closer. Why not have one last blossoming of the heart? ”

    Why not have one last blossoming of the heart?

    She simply asks the question without answering it.

    My question is “why”?

    Still have yet to get an answer.

  • J

    Replace alpha with value-SMV.

    Those are two different things, IMO.

    I get the feeling the reason some women are hesitant to have the DTR is because they already know the answer.

    Probably. If you’re dreading the discussion, you already know the answer.

    I’d also propose that most of the couples who have a smooth DTR are relatively similar in SMV-MMV.

    Agreed. That’s the nature of assortative mating.

  • Jason

    “Why not have one last blossoming of the heart?”

    The question is the answer.

    If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn’t understand anyway.

  • J

    @BV

    But I don’t do it anymore. Because I have been used too many times. The women have destroyed another little corner of civility.

    Try this: First dates should be low risk and low investment. Meet for coffee, go to the beach or park, visit a museum. Do something that allows for maximum conversation and getting to know each other. If you really connect with someone, she’ll by happy to wait for the big dinner date. In fact, a really worthwhile woman may herself want to avoid the expensive first date as men who spend big money often expect “remuneration.”

    • @J

      If you really connect with someone, she’ll by happy to wait for the big dinner date. In fact, a really worthwhile woman may herself want to avoid the expensive first date as men who spend big money often expect “remuneration.”

      If I were a guy, a woman expressing any expectation about spending at any time would be finito. That’s total spoiled brat behavior, and while women like this are far from unusual, many women do not feel this way. As you say, many women worry about male expectations that come with big spending.

      Personally, I’d much rather get to know someone in a low pressure, low investment scenario. The date should allow for plenty of relaxed conversation, and also an easy exit for either party.

      I think it works best when the date itself is not the primary activity. I’d rather go for a long walk or fly a kite than sit across the table from a stranger in a fancy restaurant.

  • J

    @Bully

    So your solution is for him to date women that he’s not attracted to?
    That always ends well.

    I would suggest he date assortativly since we generally do end up with a mate of similar SMV. I also suggest that he not be surprised to find that much younger women really don’t give a damn about him enough to ask about his day.

  • J

    only reason for a man my age to date a woman that age is on the off chance she hasn’t been giving away the milk for free for the few less years she has been in circulation

    I guess the sad choice is between a lower mileage women who doesn’t give a big enough damn to ask about your day or a slut. No middle ground, huh?

  • jack

    Plain Jain,

    Are you saying that both men and women over 40 shouldn’t date? What do advise people that age to do then? Stay celibate?

    People over 40 shouldn’t be dating. Period. No offense Joe, but I simply don’t get the point in dating or marrying mid-life, for the most part. I am open to hearing a good explanation though.

  • Jonathan

    You know, Jonathon? Buzz off. I like to take women out for dinner, because I like the conversation, food and color.

    BV, amigo, not criticizing you here. I enjoy taking women out to dinner as much as you do. But I have learned from experience that this is now a very bad idea on a first date. Wasn’t that your point too? We all wish the world worked differently.

  • BuenaVista

    @ SW:

    “Not really. It’s absurd to claim “second base” is the same as rounding third and heading home.”

    You forgot to say why it is absurd. And based on the comments and the instruction I’m receiving here on HUS, people aren’t hitting for the cycle, they’re just going directly to home.

    Here’s why it is not absurd: if a woman sexualizes a makeout session (goes to 2nd base), it is going all the way, every time. The days of tentative exploration are over. That’s what they do. If you don’t want to have sex, keep people out of your underwear.

    • @BV

      Here’s why it is not absurd: if a woman sexualizes a makeout session (goes to 2nd base), it is going all the way, every time. The days of tentative exploration are over. That’s what they do. If you don’t want to have sex, keep people out of your underwear.

      This is probably true of more mature women. A 35 year old woman has no reason whatsoever to stop at reciprocal manual stimulation, right? She’s not exactly worried about her number of sexual partners at that point. At least I wouldn’t be.

      The data on the sexual behavior of college students makes it pretty clear that the vast majority of hookups are makeout sessions. There is indeed a lot of tentative exploration, and a couple hooking up will generally move more slowly than the “third date rule.” (No dating, but they’re unlikely to have sex by the third “hang.”)

  • tilikum

    lol. my status doesn’t make the oddessy any less of a struggle.

  • Jackie

    @Tilikum

    T, is your post #111 in reply to me (#87)? If so, could you please elaborate? Thanks so much– 🙂

  • Plain Jain

    “Haha, Joe! That was a bizarre comment, even for PJ. She’s got to be pushing 40 herself.”

    Not unless you consider 31 to be “pushing 40”.
    And the “dating scene” bores me silly now, I hardly think I’ll be gearing up to ride the crows’ feet cock carousel at 40.

    “Are you saying that both men and women over 40 shouldn’t date? What do advise people that age to do then? Stay celibate?”

    Sure, why not? There are more important and engaging things than sex. My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. My culture still has wise elders instead of old broads and old geezers shamelessly trying to get laid and instead getting laughed at and disrespected (as they should be if they are that old and trying to get laid).

    • Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique.

      What the hell? It’s the halfway point! Perhaps this cultural norm was established when the life expectancy was 45. 🙂

  • Lokland

    @Susan/J

    “We’ve already disproved the apex fallacy, so this comment doesn’t really make sense. Most DTR conversations occur with non-alpha men, by definition.”

    Replace alpha with SMV.
    I suspect most of the time there is hesitation on the part of the women to initiate the DTR she expects failure. Failure probably because in part the guy is higher in SMV than her.

    (Ditto for guys and approach anxiety, if one expects to fail one does not attempt.)

    @Susan

    “It’s absurd to claim “second base” is the same as rounding third and heading home. The conventional standard for “having sex” is P in V. In the last 20 years, most studies have added anal sex (rare) and oral sex (common).”

    I don’t know what second base is but I’m guessing that it means fingering.
    So to clarify, its wrong to equate a women making out with multiple guys and getting fingered and a couple PinV experiences?

    Regardless of how one decides to label it the behaviour and activity can be deemed unacceptable even with the lack of a specific label.

    “she went off the high dive, and it went her way. Strictly speaking, the sex was casual, or no-strings. If you’d said, no relationship, she would have been N +1.”

    Calculating risk is not the same as luck. Luck is for idiots who can’t count cards.

    Explanation of poor analogy: She was smart enough to know the answer, luck wasn’t (and never is) a part of whether or not someone finds you acceptable for a relationship (to the extent that ones behaviour makes one acceptable, SMV being less controllable).

    • @Lokland

      I suspect most of the time there is hesitation on the part of the women to initiate the DTR she expects failure. Failure probably because in part the guy is higher in SMV than her.

      That’s not what I’ve observed. If two people have the same SMV, the female expectation is that the male will be reluctant to commit. The Pew Research confirms that – men state that being able to get sex more easily influences their decision to delay commitment. And of course the lopsided sex ratio plays a large role as well.

      Finally, Pluralistic Ignorance plays a role too – women assume no guy wants to be a boyfriend.

      I don’t know what second base is but I’m guessing that it means fingering.
      So to clarify, its wrong to equate a women making out with multiple guys and getting fingered and a couple PinV experiences?

      Second base is taking off the bra! Third base is manual stimulation. I guess oral happens between third and home. People can equate whatever they like. Personally, I don’t equate manual stimulation with P in V.

      She was smart enough to know the answer

      If she calculated risk correctly, and felt sure of her bet, that means you had already indicated willingness to commit. She read the signs correctly. Many women either lack evidence or the ability to interpret it correctly.

  • Plain Jain

    “If you really connect with someone, she’ll by happy to wait for the big dinner date. ”

    PSA: big dinner dates do nothing but keep Monsanto in business.

    Go wild herb foraging in your neighborhood and bleed the beast instead. You’ll instantly be given 2 points extra on the 1-10 scale by being an anti-establishment bad ass.

  • Plain Jain

    “It’s absurd to claim “second base” is the same as rounding third and heading home. The conventional standard for “having sex” is P in V. In the last 20 years, most studies have added anal sex (rare) and oral sex (common).”

    Sure, but I’ve heard the “latest fetish” to hit the porn watching mainstream under 50 set is spitting on each others backs (I kid you not). Don’t ask me how that is supposed to be sensual in any way, but to each her own.

  • Bully

    @J

    “I would suggest he date assortativly since we generally do end up with a mate of similar SMV. I also suggest that he not be surprised to find that much younger women really don’t give a damn about him enough to ask about his day.”

    Speaking to the population at large, yes. But there’s a fairly significant subset of men for which a woman in the middle of the spectrum just provides little benefit, especially in regards to the work that must be spent to procure such a relationship.

    A higher reward strategy would behoove these men, at the risk of aging out of the range of the object of their affections, especially because my thought is that men handle being alone a lot better than women do. It’s certainly a better bet than the genders being swapped here.

  • Plain Jain

    ” my thought is that men handle being alone a lot better than women do. ”

    Susan can refute that with data.

  • If the girl really does want to pursue high-SMV men, I think that she should assume that, in this SMP, the high-SMV man who is single falls into one of three categories:

    1) He doesn’t realize that he has high SMV (best case for her). An extension of this can be a woman who finds unconventional-looking men to be attractive, as she may have a niche “Blue Ocean” of more exotic potential mates who are high SMV *to her* and not to other women.

    2) He has become habituated to sexual variety and the constant validation of his attractiveness and does not want to give these up, thus he remains single.

    3) He would give these up, but he’s going to be extremely choosy. He’s single because no one has met his requirements (yet).

    At the risk of being inflammatory, I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that most high-SMV single guys are now thinking along the lines of what I will term the “Illumination of the Core Alpha Mentality of Entitlement”, aka “I-CAME.” I am not saying that I-CAME is ethical; it is really just an expression of pure self-interest in an environment that now allows some % of men to have casual sex fairly easily. I do not believe that many of these men would own up to feeling this way in mixed company, but I have heard it expressed *many* times on nights out with the boys.

    IMHO, if a woman can understand this and deal with it proactively, she can really have a competitive advantage in the mating market.

    The I-CAME proposition in a nutshell:

    “I am entitled, by virtue of who I am, to x amount of sex. If you are my GF, you are entitled to decide whether or not I spend that x amount of sex with you. You do not necessarily get to decide the amount of sex, as this is largely my prerogative. I feel that this gives you an incentive to keep me sexually fulfilled right now.

    “While that I-CAME x amount of sex that I ‘deserve’ is relatively fixed at the moment, I am concerned that it will be renegotiated if and when we get married, at which time I realize that you will be less concerned about my ability to seek sexual release elsewhere.

    “THEREFORE, as you might expect, I am very, very concerned about getting married and having my wife engage in so-called ‘sexual repression’ relationship economics. My I-CAME principles would be less credible if you felt that the legal system could be used to punish me should we come to a catastrophic disagreement about the sexual quality of our relationship.

    “My chief concern with marriage involves sex becoming a battleground. I fear that, empowered by the feeling that I am a legally captive audience, you might withhold sex in strategic ways that you would feel to be very dangerous if you tried them in the high-threat, pre-marriage environment. I would presumably then have to do special things in order to regain basic sexual access that I had enjoyed liberally in the pre-marriage phase. Thus, the state would be enabling rent-seeking/monopolist behavior and the quality of the relationship from my perspective would decline. Even if my actions restored our sex lives, I might no longer link sex to my innate physical attractiveness and would now see it as a reward for adequately performing servile chores. I hate that! It’s soooo beta!

    “If you realize this as my wife, and I suspect that you already do on some intuitive level, you have an incentive to withhold sex at any time that you are dissatisfied in order to extract something—gifts, new helpmeet behaviors, romance, ‘married man alpha’ self-development projects, whatever—valuable from me. You could get away with this because the costs of me seeking sex elsewhere could involve me being sodomized at the hands of the family court system.

    “How can we deal with this issue? How can we manage these deep, normally unspoken fears—they are the chief reasons why I appear to be commitment-phobic?”

    I-CAME may be part of the Red Pill equiv for women, and no less a psychologist and social observer than Roy Baumeister believes that a generation of the most eligible young men are going to have issues getting and staying married because they have come to see satisfying sexual access as their birthrights (thus the perceived opportunity costs of monogamy may be increasing for these men, making them increasingly selective).

    How could this be addressed credibly by a woman at an earlier stage in a relationship? I have had women tell me that the I-CAME proposition is grotesque and thus should not be addressed, as marriage *should* be an opportunity for women to control the sexual spigot in order to reward or punish men for their behaviors.

    • @BB

      Love I-CAME as an acronym, here are my thoughts:

      if and when we get married, at which time I realize that you will be less concerned about my ability to seek sexual release elsewhere.

      Why would your new wife be less concerned? I would think she’d be more concerned.

      1. A woman should never commit to a man who feels he is entitled to a certain amount of sex. That’s a highly narcissistic attitude. No one is entitled to sex. Any woman in this position will never rest easy.

      2. If and when marriage includes pregnancy, childbirth and child-rearing, sex will decline. Nature cooperates in flooding the male with oxytocin as well as the female, but no woman should have to worry that her man will step out on her as she nurses his child because she is creating a deficit in the supply of sex he is entitled to.

      When it comes to monogamy, we must apply the “Illumination of Core Alpha Narcissism and Thuggery”, or I-CANT.

      I have had women tell me that the I-CAME proposition is grotesque and thus should not be addressed, as marriage *should* be an opportunity for women to control the sexual spigot in order to reward or punish men for their behaviors.

      I don’t see how marriage affects a man’s ability or opportunity to seek sex elsewhere. Indeed, one of the primary reasons men initiate divorce less is that they can satisfy their desire for sexual variety without ending the marriage, while a woman cannot satisfy her desire for a higher status male without doing so.

      In fact, many individuals seeking casual sexual encounters have a strong preference for married or otherwise seriously committed individuals, as they are less likely to create complications, scenes, etc.

      What we have here is a square peg round hole situation. Women need to avoid square pegs.

  • jack

    Sure, why not? There are more important and engaging things than sex. My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. My culture still has wise elders instead of old broads and old geezers shamelessly trying to get laid and instead getting laughed at and disrespected (as they should be if they are that old and trying to get laid).

    Nihilism masking as wisdom. Keep your culture.

  • Bully

    “I know, all you hot, middle-aged ‘spherians do. That’s why it’s so surprising you guys have so much time to spend bitching on the net. So much p*ssy, so little happiness……makes me wonder.”

    I’m really not sure how you think the fact that he’s posting on a blog and dating younger women are mutually exclusive. Regardless of whether it’s true or not this logic is pretty gross.

  • Bully

    “Susan can refute that with data.”

    I’d like to see that because I see studies that say the exact opposite.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5479994&page=1#.UYh4QCt25ZA

  • Lest it sound like I am naively suggesting that women do not have their own dark agendas, just this past week I was made aware of two fun new terms used by undergraduate females: “PILF”, or “Professor I’d Like to Fuck”, and “fucklist”.

    PILF is self-explanatory. The fucklist is a kind of most-favored-penis booty call privileges status that is given to a very select few elite “trophy” males. If a male is on a girl’s fucklist, she can and should (!) have NSA sex with him opportunistically and enthusiastically, regardless of her relationship status with another male (i.e., having sex with a pre-identified fucklist man apparently does not count as infidelity according to the internal logic of the fucklist system).

    • The fucklist is a kind of most-favored-penis booty call privileges status that is given to a very select few elite “trophy” males.

      Did you somehow miss Karen Owens’ fucklist?

  • Joe

    My name got invoked a couple of times, but I’ve been off line. Sorry. In all seriousness I do have an answer for PJ (or, more accurately, anyone who would care to listen).

    Yes, there is a reason to date after 40, and the reason is neither to get someone into bed nor into a binding relationship. Those things do get less important with time.

    After 40, a lot of people wake up to the fact that we don’t want to get love either. We become desperate to give it. Corny as it sounds, that’s the best reason to date at any age. Some people just take longer to realize it.

  • Bully

    Personal experience shows me trending that way, for sure.

  • Bully

    “Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death,”

    How long do you think this can possibly take? 30-40 years?

  • Abbot

    “Yes, I do, but I mean, what are we doing really? I mean, are you just looking to hook up, or…?” At which point he sighs, sits up, and resigns himself for the inevitable “talk.”

    He knows that such talk is unwarranted if past men hit a home run without it.

  • Zuckercorn

    #121
    Not to put words in J’s mouth, but that does seem like a common theme in the “sphere”. There is minimal logic needed for this statement, as it is merely a snarky externalization of observations. As such, I do not think “gross” is an appropriate descriptor. If anything I would call it “conspicuously antagonistic”, but again I am not trying speak for J.

    On a lighter note, I’m happy to see you are down with the MLP. There isn’t a lot of that in the PUA/MGTOW/MRA/BBQ/TLA crowd.

  • tilikum

    wow. i just had an admitted married woman w/ 2 kids strip her ring off and tell me that she had been w/ dude “too long” while i was paying no attention to her at all, and she was very attractive. 20 min ago. and you guys are worried about the age difference i quoted?

    hell, our problems are colossal compared to whether some stud in AZ can get a dumb 22 yo to shuck her pants by acting like a man.

    and no, i told her to go home to her man but it illustrates that the sphere and HUS are for betas lest ye be shocked.

  • Zuckercorn

    #128
    Does “acting like a man” entail unreliable use of the shift keys?

  • Jackie

    @BB

    Bastiat, you are amazing with coming up with mnenomics– I bet your study guides are aces! :mrgreen:

    That said, your discussion at #119 gives me much thought. Not to “ensnaring the alpha” you write of — I would run as far as I could away from such an individual, as fast as my heels could carry me– but it leads to a tangent that I have been considering for quite some time.

    I’ve been thinking that the greatest threat to marriage isn’t feminism, as commonly believed in the ‘Sphere and elsewhere:

    It’s selfishness.

    A guy who’s got a quota for sex, a girl who’s got a quota for gifts; they are both practicing a mentality of “entitlement” as you say. To me, it’s rather sad because it takes marriage, something that is supposed to be a “we” and transforms it into something that is a “me.”

    That is not to suggest that I think there is anything wrong with marital sex or gifts. On the contrary, my aim and wish is to delight my husband! But not out of a sense rendering payment due. Rather, because it feels so wonderful to make another person happy. It anchors a bit of heaven here on Earth. 🙂

    And I hope he would feel the same way about me.

    Interestingly enough, I recently read that successful dating requires discipline and self-denial, qualities that are also needed in marriage. I confess that I don’t especially like the way those values play out in my life at times. And that is okay. My eyes are looking towards the greater good, I believe.

    Peace, BB–

  • Jackie

    @tilikum

    Sounds like you need to be hanging around a better class of people (i.e. non-cheaters).

  • Replace alpha with SMV.
    I suspect most of the time there is hesitation on the part of the women to initiate the DTR she expects failure. Failure probably because in part the guy is higher in SMV than her.

    Not so sure. I think SMV doesn’t play such a big place as some would assume. Just like the fear of owning up to wanting a relationship, there is also the common belief that men don’t want commitment unless you corner them, and even then, they will play the casual card and bail on you. Hell, I have to come here to hear men say about how they can’t wait to take care of their woman and how they don’t regret that much not sexual variety or their “freedom”.
    Some guys are happy to let things go forever before the girl has to request they DTR. It has little to do with his SMV or her perception of it. When you think someone is good for you, you rarely try and dissect why the fact that they’re “hot but not too hot” or “Smart but not too much” makes them a great fit for you. People are just great and you love them for it.

    The fact is some people are just happy to play the field, in that moment, and no woman of equal, lower or higher SMV is going to distract them from the “sex buffet” they’re enjoying if they don’t want it for themselves.
    I think someone said it before, mixed signals (or the perception of) are responsible for the anguish related to DTR. Presenting consistency in the courtship really help to reduce those risks. Calling, talking, sharing, spending some time together consistently is what makes someone secure in your/their affection and helps them overcome the fear of asking questions. Being of a higher SMV has no part in it.

    • I think someone said it before, mixed signals (or the perception of) are responsible for the anguish related to DTR. Presenting consistency in the courtship really help to reduce those risks. Calling, talking, sharing, spending some time together consistently is what makes someone secure in your/their affection and helps them overcome the fear of asking questions.

      Exactly. In those cases where a couple’s decision to date exclusively is a non-event, there have been enough signals back and forth that it doesn’t even feel risky to finally discuss it. A young woman told me recently that she was amazed at the contrast between her current relationship of passionate commitment and those “relationships” she had in college. Then again, she’s more mature now at 23, and her bf is 26. That conversation should look different now than it did 5 years ago.

  • Jackie

    @Bastiat

    “Lest it sound like I am naively suggesting that women do not have their own dark agendas, just this past week I was made aware of two fun new terms used by undergraduate females: “PILF”, or “Professor I’d Like to Fuck”, and “fucklist”.”
    ===
    Bastiat, I am trying to envision a context in which the above is appropriate for a professor and am coming up with a huge goose egg.

    If these are your students –or friends of your students– this is seriously unethical . (And, yes, their conduct is beyond unbecoming.)

    Am I missing something here? Please tell me I am. 🙁

  • Jackie

    This is a lengthy (but fantastic) read of how charismatic teachers crossing ethical boundaries leaves an impact that echos for decades:

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/04/01/130401fa_fact_fisher

  • How could this be addressed credibly by a woman at an earlier stage in a relationship? I have had women tell me that the I-CAME proposition is grotesque and thus should not be addressed, as marriage *should* be an opportunity for women to control the sexual spigot in order to reward or punish men for their behaviors.

    The topic of sex removed, the question is “should entitlements be addressed and satisfied, in general?”. IMO, no. Whether men or women are the ones making those demands, they are both out of place. I disagree with these women in their intention to control (punish and reward) a man’s sexuality, however I suppose they can only understand the issue that way if men with the I-CAME present it in an adversarial way.

    What these entitled clueless persons (male and females) should understand is that we are entitled to nothing here: no good health, no money and not even love and companionship.

  • Jonathan wrote:

    The woman who has to do the “Define the Relationship talk.” has sent mixed messages from the beginning. She won’t get what she wants since she treated the initial date or dates as casual unserious encounters.

    This x10,000. In my experience, women want it both ways: a relationship if they want you, and the ability to bail with no consequences for bad behavior if they don’t. Essentially authority without responsibility.

    • The woman who has to do the “Define the Relationship talk.” has sent mixed messages from the beginning. She won’t get what she wants since she treated the initial date or dates as casual unserious encounters.

      This statement shows a lack of understanding of hookup culture. As you can see, some of the young people in the thread have shared their own DTR experiences. The DTR today is the equivalent of the decision to “go steady” in a prior era. At some point, even if it’s a no-brainer, the convo must be had to confirm the relationship status. Since women are responsible for emotional escalation, it falls to them to “do the DTR.”

  • Jackie, I understand your concern, so let me provide context before imaginations run wild. I was told about the “PILF” term by a graduating student’s mother, believe it or not! She seemed like one of those best-friend type parents who was hip on all the latest terms and who gained street credibility with her daughter’s friends by being the “cool mom” who understood hook-up culture, hot guys, etc.

    I had not heard about so-called fucklists before; I was ignorant of the phrase and heard it used during class discussion about perceived weaknesses in evo psych propositions, so I asked what it meant.

    I really don’t enforce a lot of restrictions on discussion topics in class and try to make it a judgment-free zone as much as possible. I’d rather people, male and female, be honest about their strategic goals, but doing this can sometimes lead to free use of the same terminology in the classroom that they use outside of it. That’s fine with me. I suppose that I do probably fall into the same category as the mom who told me about PILFs, as I enjoy being thought of as a relatively cool prof.

    Female sociology professors doing gender studies programs get away with much, much more than this, and will engage in an opinionated editorializing and judgmental behavior that I personally find troubling insofar as it limits the students’ opportunity to think for themselves.

    • @BB

      She seemed like one of those best-friend type parents who was hip on all the latest terms and who gained street credibility with her daughter’s friends by being the “cool mom” who understood hook-up culture, hot guys, etc.

      Ha, that was me and I wouldn’t have said that to a prof for anything! Sounds to me like she was trying to get into your pants. BB, I think your main problem is that you take at face value sexually aggressive remarks made by feral females with ulterior motives.

  • Anacaona

    1) He doesn’t realize that he has high SMV (best case for her). An extension of this can be a woman who finds unconventional-looking men to be attractive, as she may have a niche “Blue Ocean” of more exotic potential mates who are high SMV *to her* and not to other women.

    I think you are describing two different phenomena. The late bloomer a guy that didn’t became sexy/handsome/confident until later so he doesn’t get the IOI’s part neither he hangs out in places were the slutty girls can have their way with him but is clear for the majority that this guy is hot regardless if he knows it or not. Think of Chuck (Zachary Levi).
    And ‘oneitis/infatuation/falling in love’ in this case other people might not find the guy the trophy she thinks he is think of Amy getting jealous of every single girl that might be close to Sheldon (although he is quite popular among the ladies outside the TV show).

    OT
    William called me “mama” Can a heart sing? Mine is doing it now. So happy 🙂

    • @Ana

      William called me “mama” Can a heart sing? Mine is doing it now. So happy

      Wow! That seems early! Was this his first word?

  • tilikum

    @ jackie

    minding my own business in Mormonville and these girls are the worst.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    I’ve been thinking that the greatest threat to marriage isn’t feminism, as commonly believed in the ‘Sphere and elsewhere:

    It’s selfishness.

    That’s a good point. The selfishness is part of the larger trend in society to value individual autonomy over all other goods, including community and relationships. Modern feminism follows the same trend, as shown by its continuous incantation of “strong and independent” and analogies to fish and bicycles. It is as much about individualism and autonomy as it is about equality.

  • szopen

    The English is awkward. If you want a boyfriend, does that imply that you are looking for a boy, instead of man?

    • The English is awkward. If you want a boyfriend, does that imply that you are looking for a boy, instead of man?

      I agree that we have no good word for boyfriend past the age of about 21. Man friend is lame. Lover sounds creepy. “Friend” is too vague. Whenever someone uses the word partner I assume they’re gay.

  • Maggie

    “My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization”

    LOL, so you would spend over half your life preparing for death? You have so much to learn….

  • Maggie

    @BB
    “While that I-CAME x amount of sex that I ‘deserve’ is relatively fixed at the moment, I am concerned that it will be renegotiated if and when we get married, at which time I realize that you will be less concerned about my ability to seek sexual release elsewhere. ”

    A woman would be foolish to deploy this strategy with a high value man. There are other women out there who won’t let a wedding band stand in their way to snagging a guy with a high SMV. Offhand, I can think of three women who would have been happy to have my husband and they are just the ones that I know about.

    This withholding sex strategy is going to backfire in the end. Anyway, why would a woman not want to have sex? There may be something else going on here.

  • Abbot

    “Modern feminism follows the same trend, as shown by its continuous incantation of “strong and independent” and analogies to fish and bicycles. It is as much about individualism and autonomy as it is about equality.”

    There are some men who embody the strong and independent image. By virtue of this image, they stand out. So feminists, in their continually demonstrated infinite asinine stupidity, focus on these men and want to emulate them. All the other men, unlike feminists, know their limits and are happy to be interdependent with a woman. Unfortunately for them, whats left to choose from in the US are strong independent man wannabees.

  • Abbot

    “She’s not exactly worried about her number of sexual partners at that point”

    It moved beyond context years earlier. Just a streaming blur now…

    • It moved beyond context years earlier. Just a streaming blur now…

      Precisely.

  • Crouchback

    Regarding preparing for death at 40 – I don’t see why. Most people get it right on the first try without practice. I still haven’t heard a compelling reason why men and women over 40 shouldn’t still seek love and sex, except for a general sense of “old people fucking are icky.”

    Also bear in mind even when life expectancies were a lot lower that was mostly due to deaths in infancy and childhood. Forty’s been middle aged for pretty much all of human history.

    • Regarding preparing for death at 40 – I don’t see why. Most people get it right on the first try without practice.

      LOL! The commenters here are getting wittier and wittier.

  • @ Croutchback,

    Not really, this is why a specific index was developed, the mortality rate for children under 5 to quantify that specific group. Otherwise, for a while even in Africa, the life expectancy was around 47. It made sense to prepare for death when your “productive” years had passed. Not valid today though.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    what it sounds like, BB, is that your female students are running away from healthy discussions about boundaries and expectations.

    Combined with the “I will with-hold sex to get what I want” mindset, these girls are setting themselves up for a world of pain.

  • Tomato

    “or don’t and buy cat food. I care less but i bet YOU do or you wouldn’t be reading this.”

    This reminds me that I need to make that “tired memes of the sphere” bingo card. Revenge fantasies of picturing women alone with their cats? Box. Cock carousel? Box. Women are decrepit and worthless once they hit 30? Box. Women are horrible harpies who divorce men just so they can take all their money, but MY woman/wife/gf isn’t like that? Box.

    • @Tomato

      This reminds me that I need to make that “tired memes of the sphere” bingo card. Revenge fantasies of picturing women alone with their cats? Box. Cock carousel? Box. Women are decrepit and worthless once they hit 30? Box. Women are horrible harpies who divorce men just so they can take all their money, but MY woman/wife/gf isn’t like that? Box.

      If you make it, I’ll post it!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “If two people have the same SMV, the female expectation is that the male will be reluctant to commit. The Pew Research confirms that – men state that being able to get sex more easily influences their decision to delay commitment. And of course the lopsided sex ratio plays a large role as well.”

    Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your argument.
    An SMV 5 male is more likely to commit than an SMV 10 male. So an SMV 5 female should have a higher expectation of success, no?

    Also, keep in mind my argument was similar not identical SMVs. Relationships where the man is prettier tend to be horrid and short lived whereas the women being slightly prettier is good for the long haul. (Merely a matter of the importance each sex places and looks).

    “lopsided sex ratio”

    Most guys are not getting laid like tile remember.
    I suspect PI will have a larger effect than the ratio (in getting a boyfriend not marriage).

    “Second base is taking off the bra! Third base is manual stimulation. I guess oral happens between third and home.”

    ROFL, makes more sense and much more acceptable.

    “People can equate whatever they like. Personally, I don’t equate manual stimulation with P in V.”

    No neither do I but that is my point. PinV is not the only behaviour can deem unacceptable.

    Personally I have a sliding scale of whats acceptable.

    Ex. 1 PinV=3BJ=etc.

    Not relevant though as I misunderstood 2nd base.

    “If she calculated risk correctly, and felt sure of her bet, that means you had already indicated willingness to commit. She read the signs correctly. Many women either lack evidence or the ability to interpret it correctly.”

    Would you advise to leave in the absence of evidence?
    If one cannot interpret the evidence available (more likely because of emotions-attraction) one should be willing to accept the consequences.

    And yes, I wasn’t specifically saying ‘I want a relationship’ but my actions never sent the message in anyway that I did not want it.

    • @Lokland

      An SMV 5 male is more likely to commit than an SMV 10 male. So an SMV 5 female should have a higher expectation of success, no?

      I don’t know that a 10 male is less likely to commit to a 10 female than a 5 male is likely to commit to a 5 female. I think there’s a general male perception that casual sex is more available than it used to be. At least, that’s what Pew says.

      Most guys are not getting laid like tile remember.

      We’ve determined that hardly anyone is getting laid like tile. Like, 1% of guys. Again, it’s a perception thing. A guy can delay a commitment so that he can have sex with two more people before he settles down – he doesn’t necessarily desire the life of a cad.

      And yes, I wasn’t specifically saying ‘I want a relationship’ but my actions never sent the message in anyway that I did not want it.

      In which case, she gambled. Women do it all the time. In fact, it’s precisely what I’m addressing in this post. And yes, she was lucky that you were on the same page, and that she had calculated correctly. It could have gone the other way, and I’m sure it has for many women who received exactly the same kind of feedback you were providing.

  • Lokland

    @Mir, Susan

    Note: My last comment is more questioning than a statement. I’m trying to understand the logic (or lack thereof) as to why a woman is afraid to check on something that is probably essential for her well being.

    Note: Mir read your comment, similar to Susan’s (equating it to PI).

    Trying to understand why that matters.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, this sounds like something else.

    • @Escoffier

      To me it sounds like exactly what she did, though she had no BF, so could not cheat. I think it’s fair to say that BB has some very slutty women in his class. 🙂 There really aren’t many Karen Owens’ around. I suspect the concept is more hypothetical than put into practice. For one thing, what guy would not notice that his girlfriend was fucking trophy alphas (of which there are only a handful on any campus) with impunity.

  • @ LL,

    I actually wrote my comment before Susan, but hey, who’s reading these things…

    I think we can safely eliminate the SMV discrepancy as reason to delay DTR. The issue remains whether a guy is of equal, lower or higher SMV. My understanding is PI is a much stronger force at play here.

    This isn’t a logic issue. It is an interpretation one. When a person makes their intention clear, there is little left to assume; however when one of the couple “keeps his/her options open, not necessarily by actively dating others but by displaying non-committal behavior, there may be a legitimate fear that this person isn’t into you or at least not yet. Timing, general perceptiveness, and then as a last resort logic can be tools to assess when to DTR.

  • mr. wavevector

    My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. My culture still has wise elders instead of old broads and old geezers shamelessly trying to get laid and instead getting laughed at and disrespected

    Everyone else has been piling this gem from PJ, but I think it has a lot of wisdom if you adjust the age upwards by a decade or two to accommodate longer modern life expectancy and delayed mating.

    Think about it: why are there so many middle aged married participants here on a blog intended to help young women find a boyfriend? Because we we are still trying to make sense of the great social upheavals we have lived through, particularly those pertaining to sexual behavior and gender roles. We are trying to find order in the disorder: how people and society work; the significance of our own life experiences; and how things should be. We are doing this not for ourselves – we aren’t out “shamelessly trying to get laid” – but out of concern for our children and the younger generations. We are engaging in “some sort of self realization technique” in an effort to be “wise elders” for the younger generations. I think we share a hope that the sexual social chaos that started when we were young and has built ever greater in its ferocity is finally abating and that some semblance of harmony between the sexes can be restored.

    While I doubt many of us are explicitly “preparing for death” – I know I’m not – it is readily apparent to those of us in middle age that we are on the downward slope of life. This is not the awful experience young people may envision. If one has been prudent and fortunate, the downward slope is a time where one gets to relax a bit and enjoy the results of one’s hard labor on the ascent. But it is also a time of dealing with loss, of seeing one’s parents decline and die, and facing one’s own decline in physical and mental strength. The future no longer holds unlimited possibilities and the finitude of life is inescapable.

    Accepting finitude is alien to our entitled western minds but it is an essential element of understanding. Not all things are possible. Not all that is possible is good. I want to use the last third of my life to use what I have learned – to help sort out the possible from the absurd and the good from the misguided. The conversations here at HUS are, in a small way, a contribution to that goal.

  • @ Susan,

    Call me naive but for all we know these girls are just having slutty talk. I had a lot of those while in Undergrad, mostly fabrication, necessary survival tool in a PI world.

    • @Mireille

      Call me naive but for all we know these girls are just having slutty talk. I had a lot of those while in Undergrad, mostly fabrication, necessary survival tool in a PI world.

      Interesting, you felt the need to portray a sexual bravado. Something only men have had to do historically.

  • mr. wavevector

    I suspect the concept is more hypothetical than put into practice.

    Right. Other than the female fondness for list making, the girls’ fucklists seems the same as the guys saying “I’d tap that”.

  • Escoffier

    From BB’s post, it sounded like the list he is talking about is something that girls talk about among themselves, what guys are on the list, something they debate and share with one another. Like you, I suspect (hope?) that it is more hypothetical than real. I.e., it’s a version of locker room talk for hypergamous girls.

    Karen Owen, OTOH, seemed to be a “free agent.” That is, I don’t recall any story of some generally acknowledged (by girls) list that she worked her way through. More that she came up with it on her own.

    • From BB’s post, it sounded like the list he is talking about is something that girls talk about among themselves, what guys are on the list, something they debate and share with one another.

      I think you’re talking about this, from Urban Dictionary:

      MFK:

      The socially-acceptable acronym for a game teenagers play called Marry-Fuck-Kill. When given a choice of three names, the players must decide who they would prefer to marry, fuck or kill.

      Slumber party entertainment.

  • Escoffier
  • Joe

    @Mr.WV

    why are there so many middle aged married participants here on a blog intended to help young women find a boyfriend?

    Yeah, it’s out of a paternal instinct. It’s very easy to see very nice young people making the same mistakes over and over, and even easier to realize they’re the same mistakes you made, maybe by a different name. (Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.) It’s human nature to want to bang heads and say “Don’t DO that!” and when they ask why, to answer “Because I said so!”

    Recognizing that it can be obnoxious (not to mention frustrating to us old folk), it’s also a sign of simple human compassion. So indulge us! 😉

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Joe,

    Except we’re not just saying “Because I said so!”. There’s a lot of research and data to inform our opinions now.

    Perhaps more important than the mistakes are the successes – being able to share how we found success in dating and marriage, and what we do to maintain that success.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Thought experiment:
    Let’s presume, except for NSA and ONS, that the average number of dates to sex is ten.
    The guy’s expectation is ten, hoping for less but usually not getting much less. The woman’s expectation is ten, more or less, will tell her what she needs to know and she won’t feel bad about being faster than average.
    What does this do to the DTR? Would it even have to be discussed? If it were the average and the expectation.
    Would it increase the temporary value of the bimbo, thus increasing the perceived difference between the bimbo and the more conventional woman?
    Would it be an improvement?

    • What does this do to the DTR? Would it even have to be discussed? If it were the average and the expectation.

      Yes, it would have to be discussed, because many a cad will be taking tidbits from Jenny while screwing his brains out with Emily, Julia and Liz.

  • Cooper

    Hey everyone, been lurking for a little while… 🙂

    Bottomline:
    “As a woman. . . You’re calling the shots. . . if you have sex without asking any questions, it’s on you, you know that.”

    ““I don’t share.”
    “What do you mean.”
    “I don’t share.”
    “Share what?”
    /Points at man’s package, smiles broadly.”

    +1 aha

    • @Cooper

      Good to see you! I’ve been thinking about you recently – is all well? How’s the wrist?

  • Anacaona

    I think it’s fair to say that BB has some very slutty women in his class.
    I hope BB doesn’t get mad at me but I have the strong impression that he telegraphs unrestricted hot Alpha miles away and the slutty girls tend hang around together and probably ‘recommend’ to their friends about ‘hot teacher’. So is likely his sample is biased from the get go, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    ^^^ There might be something to this.

  • @ Ana,

    I don’t even think these women need to be slutty. Some unfortunate dynamics force individuals to act “against their nature” in some cases. Mildly interesting/cute prof with good charisma Vs 15/20 female students. Competitive disastrous race to the gutter. Look at The Bachelor and all these women who turn crazy because of the competition. Some don’t even like the guy but have to project super sexual interest to get attention. Sad business!

  • angelguy

    “My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. ”

    You are only as old as you feel. I still feel like I am in my 20’s.

    I think media now is too geared to the young. There is so much more beyond 40, but it takes someone with experience to fully understand that.

  • SayWhaat
  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    No regrets!

  • Anacaona

    I don’t even think these women need to be slutty. Some unfortunate dynamics force individuals to act “against their nature” in some cases. Mildly interesting/cute prof with good charisma Vs 15/20 female students. Competitive disastrous race to the gutter. Look at The Bachelor and all these women who turn crazy because of the competition. Some don’t even like the guy but have to project super sexual interest to get attention. Sad business!
    I might be wrong, but I think the level of intrasexual competition is related to restrictiveness and hypergamy. I’m taking the examples given here but also from my more slutty friends and the reports of some promiscuous writers. Who never found a man more attractive than when some other girl wanted him. Hope and I report being immune to this ‘trigger’ for attraction and we are by far the lowest in N and self reported Beta lovers. I think those girls that are more willing to compete for men are probably more open to sex without securing commitment, YMMV.

  • Re: fucklists. AFAIK, the lists are hypothetical, a step below a “celebrity freebie” type list that a woman might have. The critical difference is that the men on the fucklist are NOT fantasy celebs—they are simply BMOCs and the like who really do exist within the woman’s sphere of social influence.

    There is at least the *potential* for a fucklist opportunity to manifest itself in real life, which I presume is the source of its excitement. It’s not a to-do list of the Owen variety; it’s “yeah, I would probably hook up with that guy for NSA casual if the situation ever presented itself.”

    I don’t think that these girls are slutty; I think they just remove all filters and say whatever the hell they want to say. There is probably a lot of bravado to it. I of course feel a natural defensiveness about calling them names, because to me they just are regular college students dealing with the practical realities of the unpleasant “splitting” lifepath strategy template that they have been given by their Prozac-stoned parents.

  • BuenaVista

    There’s a truism in sports that applies to this fucklist gaming, which is either real or is merely posturing: you play like you practice. I don’t find the concept of a fucklist very innocuous, because even if it is just posturing (practicing) the women are advancing a proud slut ethic that they’ll likely get to test (play). This style of living doesn’t end very gracefully.

    I was having dinner in Soho, Raoul’s, last month with a 25 year-old woman* who is a fast-lane young exec in Manhattan. Seated next to us were two men my age cavorting like the 70’s had never ended, and five mid-thirties knockouts eating a few pieces of salad and staring at the ceiling. (There was almost zero communication between the men and the scenery.) We had to keep moving our table so various of them could stand up and go outside to smoke. This became a bit annoying about the 10th time.

    “Party girls on the downhill slope,” my companion said acidly. (She’s a relationship girl, not a transactor. And in her social whirl, she is competing with the party girls. I know her family background, and her parents were married for over 20 years, 19 of which were monogamous before the wife punched out. So she is not wired to do harem duty.) My take, in today’s context, is that the wealthy hosts for that dinner were on the party girls’ equivalent to a fucklist. Since they didn’t interact during the dinner, much less have a steak and cause their tummies to bulge half-an-inch, they were hanging out until fulfilling their sexual duties later in the evening. They were no longer practicing, iow, they were playing. If my companion’s comments were harsh, they may have been accurate.

    * Don’t nuke me, older women, the woman in question was my daughter.

  • Jonny

    Everyone should write a will and a living trust. I highly recommend it.

  • Just Saying

    “Only one of them has ever dated a guy who’s more than 5-6 years older.”

    Easily explained – as you noted, they don’t talk about dating older guys because it’s their dirty little secret. I’m 50 and date only women in the 18-25 age bracket, and while they have no problem in the groups that I in, it is only the exceptional ones that will take me to something with their friends who will almost always rag on them. And more than a few times have tried to hit on me, while at the same time trying to break us up. Most women learn what not to do…

    Women cannot control who they are attracted to, but my interaction with younger women is primarily focused around the bedroom. I’m not their “boyfriend” or their “date” (I’m old enough to be their father) – I am seeing them and they are seeing me for one thing – mind blowing sex, and no woman introduces the guy they are shagging six-ways-to-sunday to their other girl-friends especially not if he’s older than their parents. And I really don’t have the time or inclination to deal with childish drivel – although I will take the women I see to things that I enjoy – it is primarily as a prelude to spending the night at my place.

    Yes, they have “Daddy” issues – primarily because most of them never had a father growing up, so they crave the acceptance of a strong older man. I provide that, and they provide me with what they can. It’s an equitable exchange, but nothing more… So it is not broadcast – which works out well for everyone involved…

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    All is very well. It was my right index finger that was necessitating the second surgery, a tenolysis – and that was done in the end of Feburary. It was very successful, and I gained over 300% mobility, (it was only ~25% after the 1st) so it’s now around ~90%.

    Anyways, things with the girlfriend as going very well. Objectively, I have no complaints, but it is still strange to consider myself in a relationship or more importantly in a potentially serious one. (Sometimes I wonder if I trulyl know what I’ve gotten myself into..)

    She went home for summer a few hours away. And has since visited, coming up on the second time, and stayed with me for 5days. This time, I’ll be driving back with her to spend the long weekend at her parents (:$!) It will be interesting.

    One of my friends said to me: “dude, your dating an LG!” (Fyi, little girl) Haha, and after thinking about it – I am. She is very young at 19. And also very goodie goodie (doesn’t drink really… Yet), which doesn’t necessarily jive with some of my friends. (my best shot at a complaint)
    She sometimes complains about the guys on campus, when I wasn’t much different, from what she describes, five years ago.

    I do sometimes worry that we aren’t exactly each others perfect match. (For instance, she’s a hockey fanatic, while I am not, in the least. Lol)
    But, we’re both very accommodating of each others differences, and we both value being each others first relationship a lot.

    • @Cooper

      That’s about the best I could have hoped for. Great report! Seriously, if your biggest complaints are her lack of binge drinking and your liking different sports – well, that’s a very good place to be.

  • Cooper

    Also, I can kinda tell that I’m the only calling certain shots, and in particular the ILU. I’ve kinda been dancing around that one. (Tho it’s coming) This is what has surprised me the most, that for a guy who wanted a relationship quite badly, I am now the one holding the brakes.

    That has been the biggest surprise.

    • @Cooper

      I feel like you are an alum coming back with great tales of success! It’s beyond awesome.

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Exactly. And I’ve been getting her into more of my nerdy interest too 😛
    Like, getting her to watch all the old Star Wars, and start watching Walking Dead. Aha

  • Plain Jain

    mr. wavevector May 7, 2013 at 10:44 am

    My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. My culture still has wise elders instead of old broads and old geezers shamelessly trying to get laid and instead getting laughed at and disrespected

    Everyone else has been piling this gem from PJ, but I think it has a lot of wisdom if you adjust the age upwards by a decade or two to accommodate longer modern life expectancy and delayed mating.

    Think about it: why are there so many middle aged married participants here on a blog intended to help young women find a boyfriend? Because we we are still trying to make sense of the great social upheavals we have lived through, particularly those pertaining to sexual behavior and gender roles. We are trying to find order in the disorder: how people and society work; the significance of our own life experiences; and how things should be. We are doing this not for ourselves – we aren’t out “shamelessly trying to get laid” – but out of concern for our children and the younger generations. We are engaging in “some sort of self realization technique” in an effort to be “wise elders” for the younger generations. I think we share a hope that the sexual social chaos that started when we were young and has built ever greater in its ferocity is finally abating and that some semblance of harmony between the sexes can be restored.

    While I doubt many of us are explicitly “preparing for death” – I know I’m not – it is readily apparent to those of us in middle age that we are on the downward slope of life. This is not the awful experience young people may envision. If one has been prudent and fortunate, the downward slope is a time where one gets to relax a bit and enjoy the results of one’s hard labor on the ascent. But it is also a time of dealing with loss, of seeing one’s parents decline and die, and facing one’s own decline in physical and mental strength. The future no longer holds unlimited possibilities and the finitude of life is inescapable.

    mr. wavevector May 7, 2013 at 10:44 am

    My culture teaches us that there is a time for everything. Over 40 is a time to start preparing for death, which means practicing some sort of self realization technique. My culture still has wise elders instead of old broads and old geezers shamelessly trying to get laid and instead getting laughed at and disrespected

    Everyone else has been piling this gem from PJ, but I think it has a lot of wisdom if you adjust the age upwards by a decade or two to accommodate longer modern life expectancy and delayed mating.

    Think about it: why are there so many middle aged married participants here on a blog intended to help young women find a boyfriend? Because we we are still trying to make sense of the great social upheavals we have lived through, particularly those pertaining to sexual behavior and gender roles. We are trying to find order in the disorder: how people and society work; the significance of our own life experiences; and how things should be. We are doing this not for ourselves – we aren’t out “shamelessly trying to get laid” – but out of concern for our children and the younger generations. We are engaging in “some sort of self realization technique” in an effort to be “wise elders” for the younger generations. I think we share a hope that the sexual social chaos that started when we were young and has built ever greater in its ferocity is finally abating and that some semblance of harmony between the sexes can be restored.

    While I doubt many of us are explicitly “preparing for death” – I know I’m not – it is readily apparent to those of us in middle age that we are on the downward slope of life. This is not the awful experience young people may envision. If one has been prudent and fortunate, the downward slope is a time where one gets to relax a bit and enjoy the results of one’s hard labor on the ascent. But it is also a time of dealing with loss, of seeing one’s parents decline and die, and facing one’s own decline in physical and mental strength. The future no longer holds unlimited possibilities and the finitude of life is inescapable.

    Accepting finitude is alien to our entitled western minds but it is an essential element of understanding. Not all things are possible. Not all that is possible is good. I want to use the last third of my life to use what I have learned – to help sort out the possible from the absurd and the good from the misguided. The conversations here at HUS are, in a small way, a contribution to that goal.
    Not all things are possible. Not all that is possible is good. I want to use the last third of my life to use what I have learned – to help sort out the possible from the absurd and the good from the misguided. The conversations here at HUS are, in a small way, a contribution to that goal.
    ______________________

    Thankyou Mr. Wavevector, you put it better and more culturally (politically) correct than I could have.

    I am consistently slapping my head when I’m here (not this blog, the US in general) at the level of ignorance I encounter and continually thanking my culture, heritage and the wise elders in my family and community growing up who instilled in me our values concerning the facts of human existence and transcendence.

    That there are people who live and die without any of this deeply saddens me.

    If I sound arrogant, I don’t mean to. I am just deeply grateful, and deeply proud, to the wisdom I inherited, all by chance of birth in a particular family and culture.

    “Accepting finitude is alien to our entitled western minds but it is an essential element of understanding.”

    Exactly.

    If you don’t mind I’m going to use a few of your above sentences in my next seminar.

  • Plain Jain

    “Nihilism masking as wisdom. Keep your culture.”

    Actually Jack, a culture that sees sex as the highest attainment, is in fact the nihilistic culture. The amount of anti-depressants that such a culture must swallow (literally) is evidence of its bleak outlook on life and humanity.

  • Plain Jain

    Maggie, “LOL, so you would spend over half your life preparing for death? You have so much to learn….”

    Not making funeral plans, my dear Grasshopper, rather preparing the mind and consciousness.

    Much to learn, indeed.

  • jack

    Actually Jack, a culture that sees sex as the highest attainment, is in fact the nihilistic culture. The amount of anti-depressants that such a culture must swallow (literally) is evidence of its bleak outlook on life and humanity.

    False alternative – the sexual nihilism of post-60s Leftist culture and the nihilism of pleasure denying death worship of whatever traditional culture you’re hyping. Both are sub-optimal.

  • jack

    We’ve determined that hardly anyone is getting laid like tile.

    What is that officially? More than 10 women per year? 20? 50?

    • What is that officially? More than 10 women per year? 20? 50?

      Beats me. In a study of “players” in college the definition was 3 or more girls per year. And that accounted for only a small percentage of males on campus (5%? Can’t recall, don’t have time to look that up right now.)

  • jack

    Another 50 year old man who is having sex with 18 year olds. And he has time to post on the internet too.

  • jack

    #204 is in regards to “just saying’s” comment #181.

  • Plain Jain

    “False alternative – the sexual nihilism of post-60s Leftist culture and the nihilism of pleasure denying death worship of whatever traditional culture you’re hyping. Both are sub-optimal.”

    I find it very telling that you would interpret “preparing for death” as “death worship”. I also find it very telling that you interpret following the natural decline of the libido with age as “pleasure denying”. This betrays exactly the situation to which I refer; a culture that sees the functions of the body as the highest expression of human attainment, as well as your highest bliss.

    No wonder Big Pharma is such a big thing.

  • jack

    pleasure denying because you would consign 40+ people to a life of celibacy and one viewed as a sign of moral virtue no less.

    This betrays exactly the situation to which I refer; a culture that sees the functions of the body as the highest expression of human attainment, as well as your highest bliss.

    The body is involved but it is the mind-body integration which should be viewed as the highest expression of human attainment; both Apollo and Dionysus.

    Bottom line: there is no need for40-70 year olds to swear off sex and stand on the sidelines while the 20s and 30s are going insane. Keep yourself fit, keep lean, keep hungry, run tight October/may game and rack up numbers with18-25 year olds. “Just Saying” does it. That dude spits super tight game. I hope he posts some infields. I want to see if runs direct or that pussy shit indirect. I only go direct. And then I kino those chick up! Don’t even tell me about possible sexual harassment suits. My game transcends the legal system. That super tight. Booth Jonathon is a piker compared to the shit I got going on.

    WORD. Smv-style

    There now. Shit is settled.

  • Anacaona

    Wow! That seems early! Was this his first word?
    I started talking at seven months so he is beating me by a few weeks, I actually expected it so for me is not that early. I think is his first word he has been doing the BA, DA, MA, sounds for a while and doing protowords with it. But the MAMA started a few days ago I tested him (I pretended I wasn’t looking at him when he woke up from a nap, I usually always pick him up right away) to see if he will use it to call me for real and it was not random babbling and he did! So I got an early present for my first mother’s day 🙂

  • J

    I’m really not sure how you think the fact that he’s posting on a blog and dating younger women are mutually exclusive. Regardless of whether it’s true or not this logic is pretty gross.

    LOL. Still I’d bet that I’m right. And even if he is dating a constant swirl of young women, none of them seem to care much about him or make him very happy.

  • J

    William called me “mama” Can a heart sing? Mine is doing it now. So happy

    Awwwwwwwww. That’s so sweet. I remember those days. Enjoy them. They go fast.

  • J

    This reminds me that I need to make that “tired memes of the sphere” bingo card.

    I’ll anxiously await that.

  • J

    I started talking at seven months

    So did I and both my boys. William is a little early.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Yes, it would have to be discussed, because many a cad will be taking tidbits from Jenny while screwing his brains out with Emily, Julia and Liz.”

    By your own admission most guys are not getting laid like tile.
    This is highly unlikely.

    • By your own admission most guys are not getting laid like tile.
      This is highly unlikely.

      Yes, it is, but it represents a real risk nonetheless. I haven’t heard a story first-hand like this (a harem), but I do know two girls who thought the guy was focused on them only, waiting until she was ready, only to learn he was getting sex on the side with a FWB, ex, or long-distance girlfriend. I’ve written about one girl I know who dated a guy for over a year long-distance – they were sweethearts from home – only to learn that he got a gf the minute he arrived at college and kept the two of them going simultaneously.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,

    “”What does this do to the DTR? Would it even have to be discussed? If it were the average and the expectation.””

    “”Yes, it would have to be discussed, because many a cad will be taking tidbits from Jenny while screwing his brains out with Emily, Julia and Liz.””

    Susan. In the thought experiment, I specified that the average number of dates to sex was ten. Not all women would be up toward ten in their various relationships, but if the average were ten, most would be close and few would be far away. Which is to say Emily, Julia, and Liz would be extraordinarily busy taking care of all the guys who are trying to get their
    (date) number high enough to have sex with the object of their affection. Probability is low.
    Meantime, Jenny and the guy would have to actually enjoy one another’s company. Hard to picture going through–paying for–ten dates of one kind or another if the woman in question weren’t a lot of fun with her clothes on. Which means, among other things, the woman would have to ramp up her game–the kind she exhibits while dressed rather than complacently expect the guy is hers whenever she decides to disrobe. And the woman, if she had any sense and clarity at all, could use the additional opportunities to see what the guy was really like. Might forestall some choices made from insufficient information.
    Anyway, I was interested in varous views of what might be the result of a difference in culture.

    • @Richard

      In the thought experiment, I specified that the average number of dates to sex was ten. Not all women would be up toward ten in their various relationships, but if the average were ten, most would be close and few would be far away. Which is to say Emily, Julia, and Liz would be extraordinarily busy taking care of all the guys who are trying to get their
      (date) number high enough to have sex with the object of their affection. Probability is low.

      True, but IRL the variation in sociosexuality is the deciding factor. A cad can target a very attractive girl of restricted sociosexuality, while simultaneously enjoying the easy offerings of girls with unrestricted sociosexuality.

      It would be great if 10 dates became the norm for waiting until sex, as opposed to the current “3 date rule.” Delaying sex is a woman’s best strategy for establishing male intent. I don’t see it happening though.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    To draw a parallel;

    “Yes, it is, but it represents a real risk nonetheless.”

    If we conclude that a man who marries a harpy is deserving of the consequences because he should have seen the signs;

    Then should a woman who gets into a relationship be at fault for following her attraction triggers despite them leading to negative results?

    Or in other worlds, is it their fault for being attracted to polygamous guys as opposed to monogamous guys similar to the way men who favour hypergamous over less hypergamous women are at fault when it blows up in their face?

    • Or in other worlds, is it their fault for being attracted to polygamous guys as opposed to monogamous guys similar to the way men who favour hypergamous over less hypergamous women are at fault when it blows up in their face?

      Yes, they are responsible. I would only point out that women are most likely to make this error at 18, well before the brain is fully mature. Men tend to make the error less often, but at an older age.

  • Man

    I feel like you are an alum coming back with great tales of success! It’s beyond awesome.

    I am interested: who was Cooper like? Can you put me into context if possible?

  • Lokland

    @Man

    23. never been laid –> now in relationship with 19yo

  • “A person’s sexual choice is the result and sum of their fundamental convictions.” ~ Ayn Rand

  • Sassy6519

    This isn’t a logic issue. It is an interpretation one. When a person makes their intention clear, there is little left to assume; however when one of the couple “keeps his/her options open, not necessarily by actively dating others but by displaying non-committal behavior, there may be a legitimate fear that this person isn’t into you or at least not yet. Timing, general perceptiveness, and then as a last resort logic can be tools to assess when to DTR.

    Hmm. Whenever I have tried to “keep my options open”, I did it because I was not entirely “sold” on the guy in question. I’d say that is partly due to being picky, on my part, and partly due to the “paradox of choice”. I like having the ability to not lock myself down to any one man during the initial stages of dating.

  • Tomato

    Susan and J, I have discovered that MRA bingo cards do exist on the internets and I cannot improve upon them! Google and enjoy!

    @Lok “If we conclude that a man who marries a harpy is deserving of the consequences because he should have seen the signs”

    Who is concluding this here? If anything, I see men opining “well she dated/married an alpha/cad, so why is she surprised when he cheats on her/beats her/neglects her?” If a woman behaves badly, she is blamed. If a man behaves badly, the woman is still blamed (she shouldn’t have been so stooopid).

    /is divorcing a “harpy” considered a “frivolous” divorce?

  • Jonathan

    SW:
    It would be great if 10 dates became the norm for waiting until sex, as opposed to the current “3 date rule.” Delaying sex is a woman’s best strategy for establishing male intent. I don’t see it happening though.

    It might be great but it won’t happen unless there’s a big cultural shift. Otherwise on the margin women competing for high-value men who have options will continue to offer down the price. Individual women can reduce their risk of heartbreak/SMV devaluation by waiting longer but only at the cost of increasing their risk of missing a good match with a high-quality guy. There’s no avoiding this tradeoff, though the cost of the tradeoff is lowest for young or very high value women.

    From the man’s POV the longer a woman delays sex the more likely it is that she doesn’t value him highly (e.g., is still dating around, using him for entertainment, just not into him, etc.) and is therefore a bad bet for the long term. Many men will understand these issues, either innately or, eventually, based on experience with women’s changing reactions to them as the men’s SMVs change over the course of their dating lives. A woman can help herself by communicating clearly why she is waiting on sex, but even in that case a long-term oriented man may be scared off because he may assume that she didn’t wait for everybody.

    There is probably no good solution barring that cultural shift. Maybe the best that a man or woman with long-term orientation can do is screen for honesty, but that is difficult.

    • @Jonathan

      Individual women can reduce their risk of heartbreak/SMV devaluation by waiting longer but only at the cost of increasing their risk of missing a good match with a high-quality guy. There’s no avoiding this tradeoff, though the cost of the tradeoff is lowest for young or very high value women.

      From a recent post:

      op

  • Anacaona, that’s so cool! Aidan only says dada and no mama yet. He says dadadada over and over again, and it’s pretty cute.

    I’m super busy these days, plus got into an accident that totaled the car, so yeah lots going on. Nobody was hurt, thankfully, and Aidan wasn’t in the car.

  • Man

    The Pew Research confirms that – men state that being able to get sex more easily influences their decision to delay commitment. And of course the lopsided sex ratio plays a large role as well. Finally, Pluralistic Ignorance plays a role too – women assume no guy wants to be a boyfriend.

    This issue is really as complex and human as love. But as feminazism has enforced men’s opinions and needs into oblivion, I am going to share what I think it about it in an honest, simple and logical way:

    1. Men are delaying commitment for a perceived lack of virgins and/or marriage material (feminine qualities and motherhood instincts in women).
    2. Feminist entitlements has rendered marriage a too risky business for men. Sort of women are now provided by the State and they do not have to worry so much about pregnancy outside marriage, divorce laws favor them, etc.
    3. Female empowerment and modern technological comfort and safety has rendered common men’s sexual value close to zero. Sort of feminist supremacy has been achieved and men are just a “decoration”or “competition” detail in empowered women. It means that men have to “fabricate” value through other attributes to make themselves attractive to most women, because they have almost no inherent sexual value to them. If you think about it, most men have less value for modern women than pet dogs, because the pet dogs don’t make any investment and receive all the love and dedication of many women (there are might be exceptions, and I know one, but women who have an inordinate love to pets are a big red flag to my mind). All of this increases one thousand fold the fear men have of empowered women, which leads us back to number 1.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    I would suggest he date assortativly since we generally do end up with a mate of similar SMV. I also suggest that he not be surprised to find that much younger women really don’t give a damn about him enough to ask about his day.

    Many of them probably don’t care. It all depends on the reasons why they are motivated to date him in the first place. Are they genuinely attracted to much older men, or do they like the potential money/benefits that comes along with it. One can like what another person offers them without necessarily genuinely liking the person in question.

    Also, aside from celebrities, who/where are all of these supposedly very physically attractive men over 40? I’m not saying that no man can be attractive after 40, but it’s genuinely hard for me to feel a flame of attraction with men who are older than about 35-36. After that, most men’s looks tend to hit a noticeable wall.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I would only point out that women are most likely to make this error at 18, well before the brain is fully mature. Men tend to make the error less often, but at an older age.”

    That assumes a few things;
    1. That it is an error.
    2. That because the brain of an 18yo is not identical to that of a 30yo it is somehow less suited for the task at hand even though those tasks are different.

    • 2. That because the brain of an 18yo is not identical to that of a 30yo it is somehow less suited for the task at hand even though those tasks are different.

      The brain of an 18 year-old is less capable of sound judgment, so any task requiring judgment will be performed better by a 30yo.

  • Man

    Maybe the best that a man or woman with long-term orientation can do is screen for honesty…

    I think the best they can do is to use common sense, know as much as possible about the other person’s history, family background, values, etc. and use the Lay It On the Line approach.

  • Sassy6519

    Speaking of older men, I had two distinct run-ins with older men last weekend.

    I went out to a dance club with my sister last Friday. Within 3-5 minutes of entering the place, a man came up to me and asked me to dance. He wasn’t my type, but I was impressed by his confidence to approach me directly and honestly. I agreed to dance with him. We danced for the duration of 2 songs, but I knew that I wanted to extricate myself from the situation after that. After the 2nd song ended, I said “Thanks for the dance. It was nice meeting you. I’m going to dance with my sister now. Is that okay?”. He said yes, and he walked away. I wanted to get out of the situation for 2 reasons.

    1. He was not my type physically.
    2. He was an atrocious dancer.

    Anyway, throughout the rest of the night, he decided that it would be a good idea to hover around me. Whenever I looked around, he was dancing nearby and looking at me. He even tried to shimmy his way between my sister and I on several occasions. I did my best to ignore him every time he did it, and I did not allow him to dance with me again. Finally, after about 2 hours of this awkward cycle, he approached me head on again and said, “I guess you don’t like the way I dance”. I responded by saying, “I don’t really want to comment on that because I don’t want to be rude”. That seemed to get my point across well because he left me alone after that.

    My second encounter with an older man came much later on in the evening. I was dancing with my sister near a row of tables with people sitting nearby. While I was dancing, I noticed out of the corner of my eye that a man was trying to get me to dance with him by attempting touch me from behind. I did my best to ignore him and my sister and I decided to move away from him a bit. I thought that would be the end of it, but I was mistaken. Out of nowhere, this guy comes up behind me, wraps his arm around my waist, and pull me back onto his crotch. I immediately shoved his hand away forcefully and shot him a look of my best “bitch face”. The people that were seated at the tables nearby saw the scene as well, and every person looked shocked and appalled. After I shoved his hand away, and after he saw the looks that nearby people were giving him, he immediately walked far away.

    The kicker is that this guy was legitimately 55-65 years old. My first thought was why would a man that old still be trolling dance clubs. My second thought was why did he think someone like me would appreciate being groped like that.

    Ah, the many wonders of nightlife entertainment.

  • Sassy,

    He wasn’t my type, but I was impressed by his confidence to approach me directly and honestly. I agreed to dance with him.

    He should have tried talking to you first methinks.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Now why would he try talking to her? Seems the go-to move in this scenario would be to improve his dance skills or to stop using that as an opener. As it stands, he wasn’t inside Sassy’s age range, but still presented as confident enough to get a dance from a high SMV woman, merely by saying “do you want to dance?”

    For normal guys, perhaps dressing well, learning a little bit about dance, and then going going to a club is an excellent, relatively low-investment, strategy to instantly open, AND differentiate from the massless horde of douche-men.

  • J

    The kicker is that this guy was legitimately 55-65 years old. My first thought was why would a man that old still be trolling dance clubs.

    Because men never “outgrow” liking young and beautiful women. The brighter among them tend to realize that it’s generally not mutual and move on. Also, I find that fathers of young women see young women as taboo. I think the desire to be with a young’un is strongest in childless, unmarried men. Men who are connected to a family tend to be more realistic. when they came on to me.

    When I was young, I never met a man between 55-65 in a club. Occasionally, there’d by divorced 40-somethings and that IMO was too old. I would generally offer to fix those guys with my mother.

    My second thought was why did he think someone like me would appreciate being groped like that.

    It was probably nothing about you other than your looking good. Some men are just grabby. They are frustrated, entitled or lack impulse control. In some states, groping is considered a sexual assault, BTW.

  • Anacaona

    So did I and both my boys. William is a little early.
    Funny that.
    Anacaona, that’s so cool! Aidan only says dada and no mama yet. He says dadadada over and over again, and it’s pretty cute.

    That is adorable. Babies can’t do wrong.

    I’m super busy these days, plus got into an accident that totaled the car, so yeah lots going on. Nobody was hurt, thankfully, and Aidan wasn’t in the car.
    I’m glad to hear that you are okay. Hoping things resolve fast and you got back to your routine soon enough.

    The kicker is that this guy was legitimately 55-65 years old. My first thought was why would a man that old still be trolling dance clubs. My second thought was why did he think someone like me would appreciate being groped like that.
    I know a woman that got married to a guy 30 some years her senior after he stalked relentlessly. It does happen but in general most women are EWWWW about it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    He should have tried talking to you first methinks.

    Maybe. I don’t think that the interaction would have progressed very far though. I went to that club to dance, first and foremost. Chatting with some guy on the sidelines was not my desire. I wanted to dance my butt off (which I did), and that’s partly why the invitation to dance with that guy was not turned down.

    @ ADBG

    Now why would he try talking to her? Seems the go-to move in this scenario would be to improve his dance skills or to stop using that as an opener. As it stands, he wasn’t inside Sassy’s age range, but still presented as confident enough to get a dance from a high SMV woman, merely by saying “do you want to dance?”

    For normal guys, perhaps dressing well, learning a little bit about dance, and then going going to a club is an excellent, relatively low-investment, strategy to instantly open, AND differentiate from the massless horde of douche-men.

    True. Although he was not my type (looks and age wise), I probably would have danced with him for a longer amount of time if he actually danced well. I wouldn’t have been interested in anything more, but enjoying a dance with someone is not a bad thing.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I would rather see a guy standing against a wall somewhere holding a drink than to see a man dancing terribly on the dance floor. Whenever I’ve seen a man dance poorly, my heart shrivels up. It’s just not attractive. It’s even worse when such men try to dance with me because I end up dancing poorly as a result of dancing with them, especially if the men attempt to “grind” with me on the dance floor. It ends up being a totally awkward, rhythmically challenged fiasco.

  • Escoffier

    Why would ANYONE want to be groped like that by a complete stranger?

    In any case, I like the way you handled that, Sassy. You inflicted a just amount of beatdown without elevating the issue to a federal DV case. Well done.

    • You inflicted a just amount of beatdown without elevating the issue to a federal DV case. Well done.

      His grabbing her was sexual assault. He’s fortunate she didn’t call the police.

  • J

    Anacaona, that’s so cool! Aidan only says dada and no mama yet. He says dadadada over and over again, and it’s pretty cute.

    They all say dada first–the little ingrates! 😉

    I’m super busy these days, plus got into an accident that totaled the car, so yeah lots going on. Nobody was hurt, thankfully, and Aidan wasn’t in the car.

    Glad no one was hurt. A pain in the butt nonetheless. Sorry…..

  • J

    @Sassy

    I end up dancing poorly as a result of dancing with them, especially if the men attempt to “grind” with me on the dance floor.

    Eeeewwwww, I hate that. It disgusted me when I was young; it still disgusts me now when we all should know better. Imagine yourself a middle-aged woman at a wedding with the groom’s uncle trying to grind on you. Puke!

    Many of them probably don’t care. It all depends on the reasons why they are motivated to date him in the first place. Are they genuinely attracted to much older men, or do they like the potential money/benefits that comes along with it. One can like what another person offers them without necessarily genuinely liking the person in question.

    IME, there are two sorts of women who for for guys 10+ years their senoir–golddiggers and sad girls. The former is self-explanatory. The later is more confusing. By sad girls, I mean girls who bounce from guy to guy lookng for something daddy didn’t give them. They wear themselves out until they find a new daddy. They generally feel very happy to have found him early in the relationship/marriage becaasue someone is finally fathering her. As time progresses, things get harder. The guy who was virile at 45 is old by the time the woman reaches 45. Sometimes she has kids with him, and they struggle to suport those kids with him being on Social Security and her working some crappy job. She gets old before her time. It’s a shitty deal for the woman in the long run.

    Also, aside from celebrities, who/where are all of these supposedly very physically attractive men over 40? I’m not saying that no man can be attractive after 40, but it’s genuinely hard for me to feel a flame of attraction with men who are older than about 35-36. After that, most men’s looks tend to hit a noticeable wall.

    As you age, older men will become more atttractive to you and younger men will look like kids. I see some very good looking older guys around, and my husband is a silver fox IMO. However, I can’t imagine finding the current him attractive when I was young, nor do I find men significantly older than I am now to be attractive. I’m about Susan’s age. If we go by the ‘spherian formula of “half plus seven,” I should be with a guy who is over 100, but anyone older than mid-sixties is just gross. A gap of over 10 years is too big IMO.

    • As you age, older men will become more atttractive to you and younger men will look like kids.

      This hasn’t happened to me. I still think the most attractive men are in their late 20s. Fortunately, that’s what I see when I look at my husband. I could never date again because even guys 10 years younger than me look too old to be attractive. (I’m also 28 in my own mind.)

  • Man

    I would rather see a guy standing against a wall somewhere holding a drink than to see a man dancing terribly on the dance floor.

    I assume so that you are an expert or professional dancer. Most women don’t know how to dance well too. But as they’re women, they are entitled to dance only with master dancers. Unless the man or woman is really awkward and inexperienced in dancing, most of the times it is about incompatibility.

    Women who are good dancers gives us the sensation that they are going with the flow and are light. I came to know one woman particularly once that dancing with her felt like dancing with a feather, so delicate and light/graceful she was in her movements. I danced also with another one who was second best and quite similar to her. And I also got to know one who would dance with me often and was a little awkward at first. But she was so interested in dancing and we danced so often that eventually we kind of synchronized and were dancing wonderfully. Practice and persistence/willingness helps.

  • jack

    Susan,

    I see a difficulty for women with the dtr talk that you are advocating. It will force a woman to confront head on her long-term SMV. In essence, women are screening out players/puas/cads/etc. OK, but that means that they are then going to screen out ALOT of men AND many if not all of the better looking men and the more “alpha” men. And by alpha I mean those men that have both charisma and the psychological dominance attributes that women love, especially in the short term.

    A woman will find that the only men that are interested in committing to her are not that sexy. Now, objectively they are better for her. But still, she is not going to get the visceral pleasure (all those pleasure chemicals) from being with/having sex with a more alpha man. That is very hard for women to face. They have to put reason over their “tingles” (an expression I don’t like). Again, not easy for a woman in the realm of sex and relationships.

    This is a good, solid strategy of honest introspection and thinking with a long term time horizon. I wish every woman did this. But sadly, I think few women are capable of it, especially before 26 and in America raise that to 30. You are doing the equivalent of telling people to not eat junk/fast/garbage food and give serious consideration to everything you eat. That has proven to be very, very difficult in the realm of diet. Its equally if not more difficult in the realm of sex.

  • J

    I would rather see a guy standing against a wall somewhere holding a drink than to see a man dancing terribly on the dance floor.

    Ability to dance signals ability to screw. Dance probably started as a means to demonstrate fitness. Even animals “dance.”

    Generally, healthier guys have a better sense of rhythm than less healthy guys, and younger men have a better sense of rhythm than older guys. If a guy can’t dance well, it’s a better strategy to stand against a wall holding a drink than it is to actively demonstrate lack of fitness.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    I assume so that you are an expert or professional dancer. Most women don’t know how to dance well too. But as they’re women, they are entitled to dance only with master dancers. Unless the man or woman is really awkward and inexperienced in dancing, most of the times it is about incompatibility.

    I took part in dance and gymnastics for a few years, so I have some technical training. Aside from that, I am also a very good freestyle dancer, meaning that I dance/groove along to the rhythm well and can do most dance moves easily.

    I’m not entitled to only dance with the best male dancers. I merely commented that I view poor dancing as unattractive. It’s a major turnoff for me. I don’t like it when a man has no understanding of what rhythm is, flails about unseemly, or has terrible moves. It’s embarrassing to me and, once again, a turn off.

    I think that men who understand their own strengths and limitations are better suited to catch my eye. If a man understands that he is not a great dancer, I won’t hold it against him for standing on the sidelines. I’d rather he do that than to get on the dance floor and make a mockery of himself.

    Women who are good dancers gives us the sensation that they are going with the flow and are light. I came to know one woman particularly once that dancing with her felt like dancing with a feather, so delicate and light/graceful she was in her movements. I danced also with another one who was second best and quite similar to her. And I also got to know one who would dance with me often and was a little awkward at first. But she was so interested in dancing and we danced so often that eventually we kind of synchronized and were dancing wonderfully. Practice and persistence/willingness helps.

    I’m glad that you were able to dance with women who had complementary dance styles to your own. With that being said, I’ve never been the type of woman to let a man’s dance style impede on my own. If I’m on beat, but the guy can’t maintain rhythm to save his life, I’ll only end up frustrated. Such men would be better suited finding women with similar dancing talent, or finding the nearest drunk girl who honestly will not care about dancing quality. I am neither of the two, and that is why dancing with a guy who does so poorly is so frustrating to me.

    @ J

    Ability to dance signals ability to screw. Dance probably started as a means to demonstrate fitness. Even animals “dance.”

    Generally, healthier guys have a better sense of rhythm than less healthy guys, and younger men have a better sense of rhythm than older guys. If a guy can’t dance well, it’s a better strategy to stand against a wall holding a drink than it is to actively demonstrate lack of fitness.

    YES!

    + 1000

  • Man

    With that being said, I’ve never been the type of woman to let a man’s dance style impede on my own.

    I was just curious about your standards. 🙂 Most women have very high standards to consider dating or having a relationship with a man. If they do not fit in some of the thousands of criteria they have, they hold no chance. That said, I was not advocating dancing with people who have no sense what it’s like. Dancing sort of mimics dating…

    @Sassy: That said, you were at least educated to dance with him one or two songs. Most women cannot even do that. 🙂 About the way he groped you I think it’s probably because of the way your were dressed which might have conveyed the message that you like cocky men.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    About the way he groped you I think it’s probably because of the way your were dressed which might have conveyed the message that you like cocky men.

    I was not groped by that particular guy. I was groped by a man later on during the evening who was between 55-65 years old.

    Most women have very high standards to consider dating or having a relationship with a man. If they do not fit in some of the thousands of criteria they have, they hold no chance.

    I’m pretty picky, but I don’t require that the men I date be great dancers. If they don’t dance well, that is fine, as long as they don’t go dancing with me. Whenever I’ve dated men in the past who were not great dancers, I simply opted to go out dancing with my friends instead. It was a win-win situation that way.

  • BuenaVista

    @J “IME, there are two sorts of women who for for guys 10+ years their senoir–golddiggers and sad girls.”

    This fits the feminist creed, but I know a guy whose online dating inbound inquiry (i.e., unsolicited inquiries) ratios argue otherwise:

    50% within five years of the man.
    20% within 10 years (younger)
    20% 10-20 years younger
    10% 20-35 years younger

    The 20-35 years younger are not characterized by daddy issues or money issues, so far as I can tell; they’re just transgressive, and often very interesting upstairs. They’re exploring, and online is a perfect way to do that without someone accusing them of being a golddigger or being an emotional freak show.

    The 10-20 years younger cohort usually have baby fever, and they flip for stability and evidence of health (looks, athleticism, quality of active hobbies).

    The so-called age-appropriate women are the most avaricious: one of the shit-tests, believe it or not, is their asking him even on the first date what his balance sheet looks like, or a proxy tell, “who manages your money?” or “how much do you think your company’s worth/how much do you own of your company?”, which his latest girlfriend ran out like the guns on a frigate a few times.

    I’m beginning to think there is a course at HBS that instructs women in how to do wallet biopsies. And that is why, on a first date, I usually drive a 20 year-old Volvo wagon instead of the 911.

  • Man

    @BuenaVista: The most intelligent ones ask “Do you like your job?”. Hence they can gauge both your social position, ambition, success, etc. My advice would be not to worry too much about this: as a rule of thumb women always know exactly whom they’re dealing with and there is nothing you can hide much for a long time. They know who are the bad boys, who are the nice guys, who are the romantic ones, the serious ones, the ones who are seeking commitment, everything, etc. They will just “open” or “close” the “gate” as it suits them best, according to their own perceived sexual value and interests and interests at the moment. So I think that indeed the only option you have if you’re looking for a LTR is to Lay It On the Line.

  • SayWhaat

    For normal guys, perhaps dressing well, learning a little bit about dance, and then going going to a club is an excellent, relatively low-investment, strategy to instantly open, AND differentiate from the massless horde of douche-men.

    Yes, but there’s an almost zero chance that I would go on a date with anyone I met at a club. I go there to dance and have fun. I have never met a guy at a club who 1) could dance, and 2) wasn’t a douche.

    I differ from Sassy in that while I wouldn’t penalize a guy for attempting to dance, I would be much more frustrated with a guy who refused to even move. Dancing is a way for me to show off, and I’d want a guy to be appreciative of it, rather than standing stiff like his teeth were getting pulled. I mean, he doesn’t even have to do anything, as long as he lets me dance all over and enjoys the show! 🙂

    I remember one time when I was studying abroad, a group of us went clubbing. There was one guy who looked like your average American dude. I wouldn’t have noticed him at all during the day. But at that club, he completely let loose and it was amazing to see (think Chandler from Friends going nuts). He was awful and he didn’t give a rip, which made him turn the corner into amazing. Unfortunately, he had a gf. 😛

    If I could find a guy who was comfortable enough to let me dance with him, I’d probably marry him.

    • Yes, but there’s an almost zero chance that I would go on a date with anyone I met at a club. I go there to dance and have fun. I have never met a guy at a club who 1) could dance, and 2) wasn’t a douche.

      Match did a survey of divorce rates based on where people met, and clubs and bars have the highest divorce rate by far. Not surprising, really.

  • Anacaona

    The 20-35 years younger are not characterized by daddy issues or money issues, so far as I can tell; they’re just transgressive, and often very interesting upstairs. They’re exploring, and online is a perfect way to do that without someone accusing them of being a golddigger or being an emotional freak show.
    Sorry to break your fantasy but I agree with J. And I come from a third world patriarchal country where is no taboo for men to follow their desire for ‘young flesh’. Most women that want a man old enough to be their dad or grandad have serious issues on the head or are opening their legs and thinking on hot pool boy or sudden heart attack during sex. Are there exceptions? Yes, and some of them settled for an older guy that is tired of cheating and is offering them a ring that a more attractive younger guy that is still banging everything that moves, but they are a lot less than you would expect in the ratio of women targeting their men. Just because feminism endorses something doesn’t mean that is automatically wrong.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Sassy:

    Your story reminds me of two other incidents that happened to me.

    One time I was at a bar with a girlfriend when this old guy (we’re talking snow-white hair) started hitting on me. He was being very flattering and I didn’t want to be rude, so when he asked me for my number, I awkwardly gave it. My friend was like, “why did you do that??” and I was just like, “I don’t know!!” He texted me right after I left the bar, but I didn’t respond.

    Another earlier time (when I was a sophomore in college), I was at a dance event and some guy gave me his business card asking for more information about the dance group that I was a part of. I emailed him later with the information and he replied with an invitation for drinks. I was extremely flattered because wow, no guy had asked me out before! So exciting! And then I googled him, found out that he was a sommelier, and realized that this guy was way too old for me. I didn’t know how to respond to his email because, well…how do you tell a guy that 1) I’m not old enough to drink, and 2) um, you’re old and I don’t want to go out with you! I was so weirded out that one of my friends ended up writing an email response for me with the excuse that my “boyfriend” wouldn’t like it if I met up with him.

    Very awkward experiences for me. I wonder if this is what the manosphere counts as “success” with younger women…lol!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Hope:

    Glad you’re okay. Yeesh, what is up with drivers in the Midwest??

  • SayWhaat

    From the man’s POV the longer a woman delays sex the more likely it is that she doesn’t value him highly

    Seriously, where did this myth originate? It’s a dangerous belief for both parties involved.

  • Man

    If I could find a guy who was comfortable enough to let me dance with him, I’d probably marry him.

    Here I am. Nice to meet you. 😉 How could you know I am not a douche if I danced with you? How could we proceed to date if my chance is almost zero, anyway?

  • Lokland

    Ditto for women who can’t dance.
    I went to a club with a date once and am 90% positive a tornado kept throwing stuff against me.

    It was utterly horrendous not so much because I can’t stand bad dancing but it was just too crazy for me. Went past the point of being hot to just a wtf!?
    Note: Not a specific dance style just random gyration + flailing + hair waving. I chuckle just thinking about it.

    ——————

    On the age thing.

    Perhaps feminism has planted the evil seed in my head but I have trouble finding woman below the age of about 22 attractive, they seem child-like to me.

    Otoh, I know some women mid to late 30s whom cause me to salivate upon seeing. (Note: Would never consider a relationship with them.)

    Been that way most of my life women significantly younger than myself never seemed particularly attractive.

    ———-

    “The so-called age-appropriate women are the most avaricious: one of the shit-tests, believe it or not, is their asking him even on the first date what his balance sheet looks like, or a proxy tell, “who manages your money?” or “how much do you think your company’s worth/how much do you own of your company?”, which his latest girlfriend ran out like the guns on a frigate a few times.”

    This sounds like most of the women I know currently in their 50’s and 60’s.
    I’m not sure if it is due to age or being boomers (I suspect the second) but most (but not all) of the women in that group seem like genuinely horrible people (excluding some of the present company).

  • Lokland

    “Seriously, where did this myth originate? It’s a dangerous belief for both parties involved.”

    Sluts who change lanes and then don’t value their new beta boyfriend.
    (Or value them less than their previous alpha flings.)

    Until a woman’s mistakes are actually viewed as that (which entails consequences) and not part of growing up it is unlikely to change.

    • Sluts who change lanes and then don’t value their new beta boyfriend.
      (Or value them less than their previous alpha flings.)

      That definitely belongs on manosphere bingo.

      Unrestricted women have alpha flings, and they don’t switch to restricted beta boyfriends.

  • Emily

    >> “I would rather see a guy standing against a wall somewhere holding a drink than to see a man dancing terribly on the dance floor.”

    Not me! Although I’ve always had a fondness for the class clown types. 😛 When my bf and I hit the dance floor, I’m sure it’s pretty painful to watch. But it’s great fun for us! 😀

  • J

    This fits the feminist creed, but I know a guy whose online dating inbound inquiry (i.e., unsolicited inquiries) ratios argue otherwise:

    It might well fit the feminist creed, but it’s also my observation of other women over the last 45 years or so. Feminists and I also agree that people should brush their teeth at least twice a day. Sometimes something is obvious to most people.

    And everyone knows a guy…

  • SayWhaat

    Sluts who change lanes and then don’t value their new beta boyfriend.
    (Or value them less than their previous alpha flings.)

    Translation: another tired ‘sphere meme.

    Bingo box checked.

    • Translation: another tired ‘sphere meme.

      Bingo box checked.

      Ha! You beat me to it! Manboobz has an MRA bingo but we need something more tailored for HUS. I’m going to call it Deti Bingo. Suggestions are welcome.

  • SayWhaat

    How could you know I am not a douche if I danced with you? How could we proceed to date if my chance is almost zero, anyway?

    You wouldn’t be able to dance with me because I don’t know you.

    Consequently, we would never proceed to date.

    I don’t go to clubs to meet men.

  • Gin Martini

    J: “I’m about Susan’s age. If we go by the ‘spherian formula of “half plus seven,” I should be with a guy who is over 100, but anyone older than mid-sixties is just gross. A gap of over 10 years is too big IMO.”

    You should get your sources right. The half-plus-seven is “don’t date under this” rule as proposed by XKCD, plus, in the original strip it’s being applied to the *woman*.

    But, maybe some goofs think that applies to really old people, which is clearly silly.

    The ‘sphere, as you love to point out, would actually insist on a much wider range and insist that when you’re 40 you can attract a 24-year old. (Which, I wouldn’t normally believe, until someone that age actually started hitting on me… yikes!)

    • The half-plus-seven is “don’t date under this” rule as proposed by XKCD

      He didn’t propose it, he just observed it, I believe.

  • SayWhaat

    These younger girls, 18-22, I never, ever, ever fuck them if I didnt on the first date. (Girls in my social circle dont count.)

    Outlier box: checked.

  • J

    @BV

    And that is why, on a first date, I usually drive a 20 year-old Volvo wagon instead of the 911.

    That’s a sure sign of having money and solid middle class values, BTW. My suburban neighborhoood is full of old Volvo wagons. There’s one in my driveway. Congrats on making yours last 20 years. And respect! When I see a guy with an old Volvo, I know his money is in stocks, not status purchases.

    I suggest that you look for a woman with a 15 year old Coach bag. The company used to recondition those suckers. Caution: the new bags are status conscious crap.

    The most intelligent ones ask “Do you like your job?”. Hence they can gauge both your social position, ambition, success, etc. My advice would be not to worry too much about this: as a rule of thumb women always know exactly whom they’re dealing with and there is nothing you can hide much for a long time. They know who are the bad boys, who are the nice guys, who are the romantic ones, the serious ones, the ones who are seeking commitment, everything, etc. They will just “open” or “close” the “gate” as it suits them best, according to their own perceived sexual value and interests and interests at the moment. So I think that indeed the only option you have if you’re looking for a LTR is to Lay It On the Line.

    Well, duh. But just those of us worth knowing. The rest are too dumb to be interesting. 😉

    But seriously, no quality woman is going to sell herself short.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Translation: another tired ‘sphere meme.
    Bingo box checked.”

    Another feminist meme (lack of accountability).
    Box checked.

  • jrd

    SayWhaat: “I was so weirded out that one of my friends ended up writing an email response for me with the excuse that my “boyfriend” wouldn’t like it if I met up with him.”

    That’s [somewhat] better than what I did when I was 18 and a man in his 30s came on to me while I was sitting out by a pool. I got up, told him I had to go, then walked as quickly as I could back to the apartment where I was visiting.

    • @jrd

      That’s [somewhat] better than what I did when I was 18 and a man in his 30s came on to me while I was sitting out by a pool. I got up, told him I had to go, then walked as quickly as I could back to the apartment where I was visiting.

      Was his name Desiderius?

  • J

    You should get your sources right. The half-plus-seven is “don’t date under this” rule as proposed by XKCD, plus, in the original strip it’s being applied to the *woman*.

    My God, you’re young. The saying is very old and traditional. The oldest written mention I can recall is The Honorable Elijah Mohammed saying it to Mohammed Ali in Malcolm X’s auto-biography, but it was an old saw even then.

    I agree that originally it was aimed at young people, probably with the notion that an 18 yo woman was ideal for a 25 yo guy. The older you get the less workable it becomes. That’s one reason why it is silly to use it to justify a 60 yo guy going after a 37 yo.

  • J

    I differ from Sassy in that while I wouldn’t penalize a guy for attempting to dance, I would be much more frustrated with a guy who refused to even move.

    Guys should lead with what they do best. If you’re funny, be funny. If you’re smart, be smart. If you’re athletic, be athletic. There are girls who like all sorts of stuff.

  • SayWhaat

    Another feminist meme (lack of accountability).
    Box checked.

    “All women are de facto feminists” or “perfect princesses”, which one do I choose? I can’t decide! 😛

  • SayWhaat

    When my bf and I hit the dance floor, I’m sure it’s pretty painful to watch. But it’s great fun for us!

    You guys sound like a blast. I just want to party with people who have fun! 🙂

  • Paul Rivers

    Love the article, and agree with most of it. Wanted to say two things:

    As a guy, I had a situation where there was a girl I had really, really strong feelings for. Finally (after we hung out like 5 times) I moved to kiss her from across the couch. She reciprocated, there was lots of making out, etc etc.

    When she came to getting her shirt off, she started pulling back. I got the “no!” with body language that said yes. This happened a few times, then I stopped making out with her (who wants to make out with someone sending you such mixed signals?).

    Suddenly I started feeling a little weird. I felt like she was playing a game or something – what was a really, really fun time making out suddenly felt like I was doing something “wrong”. It…kinda creeped me out. I never quite recovered my same enthusiasm for her, though we did end up dating for a little while.

    But – for me – you know what she could have said that would have made me not suddenly feel dissapointed or like I was doing something wrong? She could have said “I really really like you, but I don’t want to sleep with someone and have it turn out that we’re not dating”.

    I know that would have worked, because that’s what I was thinking at the time “I *really* like this girl, but I don’t want to pump and dump her and burn her – do I want to date her long term?”. That was what was running through my head again and again. I could sleep with girls that I didn’t want to date, and I could sleep with girl I was dating, but I **really** didn’t want to break someone’s heart sleeping with someone who fell head over heels with me if my reaction was going to be “meh, that’s cool, I like you but I don’t think I like you enough”. That just seemed scummy to me.

    I have no basis for saying what “all guys” are thinking, but I know that in my case actually saying the reason for why she was pulling back would have gotten a positive reaction, not a negative one.

    • @Paul

      She could have said “I really really like you, but I don’t want to sleep with someone and have it turn out that we’re not dating”.

      I like that a lot – it offers a bit of vulnerability. But most women are loathe to put all their cards on the table like this. They believe that a lot of guys would say, “Whoa! You’re already talking about dating?”

      Of course, if the guy is thinking he does want to date her, he’ll be quick to reassure her and presto, they’re in a relationship. So a bit higher risk, but sooner reward if he’s into it.

  • Lokland

    ““All women are de facto feminists” or “perfect princesses”, which one do I choose? I can’t decide! ”

    Touche;

    There are women here who are pretty vocal on young women being entitled to a couple of mistakes consequence free however.

    Or in other words;

    A couple alpha fucks without consequences to learn the ropes before getting a boyfriend.

    Keep in mind, no man is saying that a guy should date a couple women simultaneously prior to marriage at least that I am aware of (polygamy being the analog to hypergamy).

    • There are women here who are pretty vocal on young women being entitled to a couple of mistakes consequence free however.

      Or in other words;

      A couple alpha fucks without consequences to learn the ropes before getting a boyfriend.

      Really? Who has said that?

  • Paul Rivers

    (2nd thing)

    On a completely different note:

    “Don’t get me wrong – it’s not that women want to have sex before monogamy. They want nothing more than to have sex within the context of a relationship. The problem is that they’re often unsure about whether they’ve reached that point, and they hate, hate, hate having to initiate the DTR, i.e. “Define the Relationship talk.””

    “Even girls who have rehearsed the lines with me report back that they couldn’t bring themselves to say it when the time came…”

    I can’t help but feel like that’s a **lot** of emotional rationalization and antislut thinking. Maybe not for everone, but that seems a *lot* like the girls mental process is that while she’s talking to a girlfriend or her friends mom, she’s totally like “yeah! I want a relationship! And I’m not interested in sex if it’s not a relationship!”

    Then in the actual moment her emotions are going “So if I say something and he turns me down, I won’t get laid. But I’m sooooooo turned on…you know, I’d rather sleep with him and not date him than risk saying something and not getting laid.”

    Now – I still agree with the premise of the article, that a relationship guy (in reality) doesn’t have any sort of problem being exclusive with a girl he’s sleeping with. The guy who’s saying “She’s so cute – I want to hit that today, tomorrow, next week – talk to her, get to know her, date her” etc isn’t really interested in rotating between sleeping with different women at the same time.

    His only drawback is that he sometimes wants to get to know her in a timeframe that’s longer than she actually likes. I’ve known guy after guy after guy who’s complained that if they aren’t sleeping with a women within 3 times of hanging out with her, they get friendzoned (as a generalization, there are exceptions of course). Most of them are married now…so they’re not “undateable” types, or the kind that just looks good until you get to know them.

    • But I’m sooooooo turned on…you know, I’d rather sleep with him and not date him than risk saying something and not getting laid.”

      I have only actually ever heard one woman talk about “needing” to get laid. She was quite unrestricted in her sociosexuality and didn’t care about the relationship question in the first place.

      LTR oriented women don’t think that way.

  • BuenaVista

    I feel like I’m trolling for walleye, only it’s a lot harder to catch walleye. Two responses are as predictable as sunset.

    1. @anacona: “Sorry to break your fantasy but I agree with J. And I come from a third world patriarchal country where is no taboo for men to follow their desire for ‘young flesh’.”

    Err, it’s not a “fantasy”. It’s what is going on. It doesn’t matter what your ideology says *should* be going on. It doesn’t matter that your solipsism takes the form of umbrage at the idea that some women and men do things you don’t think they should. This is classic cognitive dissonance, asserting an ideology over facts. And as I noted, my premise, that it occurs with such frequency online, where a correspondent won’t be called out by other femmes who get huffy if someone doesn’t parrot the ideology, is a lot more compelling to me than NO NO NO NOT POSSIBLE SHUT UP.

    As in all cases, the descent into ad hominem (” … men to follow their desire for ‘young flesh’”) is puerile. You have no idea what my fantasies are, what I do, or how old my dating cohort is. I get inquiries on OKC from bohemian college kids — and they are very conscious of what they are doing. If that data is irrelevant to you, I really don’t care.

    2. @J: “It might well fit the feminist creed, but it’s also my observation of other women over the last 45 years or so.” Uhhh, congratulations on your observations. I’m a man, though, and this is happening to me without my asking for it. My profile says I’m interested in women 35-55. I’m getting hustled right now by two 22 year-olds.

    And J., are you capable of commenting on anything without getting on your superior morality high horse? Why do you think other people benefit from your incessant evaluations? Mystifies me. Also, my daughter works at Coach, so I’m REALLY REALLY OFFENDED AND OUTRAGED by your comments. (See how boring incessant manufactured moralizing gets?) The stuff I buy from Coach is better made than my clothing from Paul Stuart.

    ***

    I mean seriously: people should be more subtle about acting out three or four of the most stereotypical behaviors red pill theorists ascribe to females. Make it a little harder, at least, to shake one’s head and admit, that Roissy knows a lot more about females than I do. But after exercises like this, I can’t deny the man his insights.

    Last, I note that 22 year-olds command companies in combat and land 30,000 pound jets on boats at night. Unless one takes the point of view that male 22 year-olds are innately superior to female 22 year-olds, in judgment and agency, it’s mighty illustrative to witness the iridescent hostility of some women to others, simply because the ‘others’ aren’t doing what their politically correct betters expect. It simply doesn’t occur to feminists that there are dissidents to the cause, they know what they are doing, and why they are doing it. And of course Roissy is right about that, too. Who cares if some people do things you reject? It’s not about you, it’s about them.

  • SayWhaat

    Then in the actual moment her emotions are going “So if I say something and he turns me down, I won’t get laid. But I’m sooooooo turned on…you know, I’d rather sleep with him and not date him than risk saying something and not getting laid.”

    No, her emotions are going “If I say something and he gets turned off, he won’t want a relationship, won’t return my texts, and I’ll lose my chance at a relationship with a guy I really like. But if I go with it, then maybe at some point he’ll ask me to be his girlfriend, especially if he likes having sex with me!”

  • SayWhaat

    There are women here who are pretty vocal on young women being entitled to a couple of mistakes consequence free however.

    I don’t think anyone here believes that those mistakes are consequence-free. Nothing we do is consequence-free, even good deeds.

  • BuenaVista

    @Man. Thanks for the reference. I’ll check it out.

    But just as I know longer know what the word “love” means — because it’s more frequently deployed to get something or keep something, ime, than to express the innocence and hope I felt with my ex- when we were 23 — I really have no idea what “LTR” means, once a man announces he is not going back to the altar (or the birthing wing). I haven’t gone out twice with a woman — with two exceptions, and now one of them is married and the other is trying to figure out how to get an annulment so her broken beta can marry her in the Catholic Church– in the past 13 years, for whom LTR did not mean, in very short order, “When are we getting married?” Any man who has experienced family law and child protective services and fabricated criminal complaints and $600/hour litigation expenses is going to look at “I want a LTR” as a jammed weapon. And you don’t clear a misfire by staring down the business end of the barrel. That’s when you get your head blown off.

    I used to think I had it figured out: I would date athletic women who were emerging from their divorce from some blowhard asshole alpha, because they would be so dismayed by their fresh divorces that the *last* they would seek is a replacement husband. I was wrong.

    But that’s an issue unrelated to Susan’s mission, I suspect. I think the mission here is to unpack strategies and inclinations, so that young men and women have more luck than my divorced friends and me. “Get lucky and hope” is the best I can come up with, and hope is never a strategy. And that is why there’s a marriage strike on.

    • And that is why there’s a marriage strike on.

      No there is not. Certainly not for the college educated. Millennial men are more interested in marrying than the women are. Sadly, they’re also less marraigeable.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Seriously, where did this myth originate? It’s a dangerous belief for both parties involved.

    It’s also dangerous when you spin the opposite because it’s telling Blue Pill Guys to date girls who aren’t attracted to them, in the hopes that something is going to spring from it.

    Which is an extremely shitty strategy.

    And then they come back years later spouting the Red Pill polar opposite.

    Reap what ye sow

  • SayWhaat

    It’s also dangerous when you spin the opposite because it’s telling Blue Pill Guys to date girls who aren’t attracted to them, in the hopes that something is going to spring from it.

    No, it’s not. “Beta bucks” is something that applies once women start hitting the wall with baby fever (if that). No woman I know wants to spend time with a bore for a meal she could easily pay for herself. And few women would go longer than 3 dates with a guy they did not find attractive.

    (One more box for Bingo!)

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “I don’t think anyone here believes that those mistakes are consequence-free. Nothing we do is consequence-free, even good deeds.”

    Not what I said exactly.
    There are a few who say that a woman shouldn’t be judged harshly for a few mistakes.

    Which essentially translates to ‘entitled to fuck a few alphas prior to settling down’.

    That doesn’t mean they think they are not being judged but that they should not be. Slight difference.

  • SayWhaat

    Not what I said exactly.
    There are a few who say that a woman shouldn’t be judged harshly for a few mistakes.

    Who here believes this? Plain Jane?

  • BuenaVista

    @Paul.

    FWIW, when I got divorced after being with my college sweetheart for 23 years, I was totally and completely clueless about dating. Your average 18 year-old today is smarter than I was at 42. One piece of advice that I received that has proven true to five nines of accuracy, is that if a woman doesn’t kiss you on the lips at the conclusion of the first date, her interest level is and will always be, too low. This test has never failed me. So if I want to date someone, I give her the kiss-on-lips test. If she turns her head and I get the cheek, it’s a bummer, but it’s time to suck it up and move on with one’s hopes and dreams.

    Also, hamster behavior is bouncing off the walls, often, the first time things escalate to a sexual plane, as in your untoward trip on the sofa while *she* is removing her blouse. “I can’t I shouldn’t oh no you won’t respect me can you PUHLEEZE unbuckle your goddamned belt for me it’s stuck oh I never do this I really like you oooohhh that’s nice NO NO STOP.” The only way to manage this is to demonstrate self-control, stop the music, and get up and put your shoes on. (It’s also a good way to avoid a false rape charge.) And to five nines of accuracy, they’ll say “Where are you going?” “No means no. I’m going home. Thanks for a lovely evening.” NB: you won’t be going home, unless your head is splitting already from the mixed signals.

  • SayWhaat

    Sorry, misquoted. The above was a response to this:

    Which essentially translates to ‘entitled to fuck a few alphas prior to settling down’.

    I don’t think young people, both boys and girls, should be judged harshly when it comes to making relationship mistakes. It’s one of the features/pitfalls of youth.

  • SayWhaat

    One piece of advice that I received that has proven true to five nines of accuracy, is that if a woman doesn’t kiss you on the lips at the conclusion of the first date, her interest level is and will always be, too low.

    Depends. If it’s a online date, I probably wouldn’t be inclined to kiss the guy. I literally just met him!

  • SayWhaat

    Ugh I’m stuck at work and just want to go hooome

  • Lokland

    @SW

    Rofl, I would never equate PJ with anyone.
    J has been vocal on that point prior.

    —–

    As a further note;

    Perhaps I am a party of one but I define beta bucks so it includes a woman changing lanes late in the game and/or flings/STR with one type of guy followed by LTRs with a different type.

    Note: Type being a rather loose grouping not a strict archetype.

    So I agree with ADBG, the advice that a woman waiting along time to allow sex is very bad news because it can cause exactly what he said.

    Keep in mind however, my wife kept me waiting for three weeks and I have never complained about it. If she had had a history of flings that would have been unacceptable.

  • Paul Rivers

    “No, her emotions are going “If I say something and he gets turned off, he won’t want a relationship, won’t return my texts, and I’ll lose my chance at a relationship with a guy I really like. But if I go with it, then maybe at some point he’ll ask me to be his girlfriend, especially if he likes having sex with me!”

    I’m not saying that doesn’t happen as well, but I do not at all think that they’re making out, things are getting hot and heavy, they’re both really drawn in and anticipating sex – and she’s emotionally detached, contemplating the pros and cons of sex vs relationship. I think she’s hot and horny (like the guy is, assumably), and the desire to have sex is as much of a factor as is relationship reasons.

    When I was in college (which was a while back), girls would always use the word “relationship” to describe their feelings towards a guy. Sometimes – by no means always, but often enough it was a trend – you could figure out that by “relationship” she really meant “sex”, as she really had no interest in his personality.

    Again, it’s not an “all one of the other” thing. But the idea that a girl comes back and tells her casual friends or friends of friends that it was about a relationship, while telling her closest friends that it was because he was “so hot”, is not new.

    • she’s emotionally detached, contemplating the pros and cons of sex vs relationship.

      This describes 10-20% of women, max.

      Sometimes – by no means always, but often enough it was a trend – you could figure out that by “relationship” she really meant “sex”, as she really had no interest in his personality.

      She’s not in it for the sex, she’s in it for the relationship status. Boyfriends can be hard to come by, and women will make a lot of compromises in college to have one. Beats sitting on the beach for four years, as many girls do. Seeing as how hooking up is the only route to a relationship.

  • Paul Rivers

    “One piece of advice that I received that has proven true to five nines of accuracy, is that if a woman doesn’t kiss you on the lips at the conclusion of the first date, her interest level is and will always be, too low.”

    That’s definitely interesting, thanks for the comment.

    “The only way to manage this is to demonstrate self-control, stop the music, and get up and put your shoes on.”

    Hmm…this seems like one of those things I’d have to see in person, as any time I’ve come close to that I usually accidentally give off a “I’m rejecting you vibe” – which I really don’t mean, but that’s how it seems to come across.

    Plus it was *my* house…you kind of look like an idiot getting up and leaving your own house… 😀

  • Anacaona

    It’s what is going on. It doesn’t matter what your ideology says *should* be going on
    Its not ideology is what is going on in my country (Dominican Republic) were men can pursue women at any age they want with little repercusions heck one of my friends was dating a 14 year old with her father’s blessing. I had yet to meet any that is genuinely interested that didn’t had a lot of issues with it. But feel free to believe whatever makes you sleep better. Not my problem.

  • Cee

    Tyler,

    If Susan’s advice is such an atrocious shit test, offer a better one. It seems as though you’re implying a woman should put out early in order to prove her interest in the man early on when we all know that is a horrible strategy to assume as men will glady take the sex but will likely not reciprocate much of any emotional investment.

  • SayWhaat

    Perhaps I am a party of one but I define beta bucks so it includes a woman changing lanes late in the game and/or flings/STR with one type of guy followed by LTRs with a different type.

    I understand the sentiment – I would also not be pleased to discover that the guy I’m dating turned out to have slept around a lot. But, this is just one more point in favor of waiting. Both guys and girls need time to suss out their date’s intentions. The girl needs to know he’s interested in her and not just for sex, and the guy needs to know that she’s interested in him and not just for his wallet!

    This is why the first few dates should be low-key and inexpensive. He doesn’t expect anything, she doesn’t expect anything. If she reciprocates his gestures with gestures of her own (e.g. planning the next date, buying ice cream after, etc.) then you can rest easy.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    Guys should lead with what they do best. If you’re funny, be funny. If you’re smart, be smart. If you’re athletic, be athletic. There are girls who like all sorts of stuff.

    I agree. I like it when a man puts his best foot forward. I just happen to be a hard critic when it comes to dancing, so most men would be better served to not dance in front of me. I don’t expect a man to be strong in all pursuits. If he can maximize his potential in 2-4 things/areas, however, that will impress me much more.

  • SayWhaat

    I’m not saying that doesn’t happen as well, but I do not at all think that they’re making out, things are getting hot and heavy, they’re both really drawn in and anticipating sex – and she’s emotionally detached, contemplating the pros and cons of sex vs relationship. I think she’s hot and horny (like the guy is, assumably), and the desire to have sex is as much of a factor as is relationship reasons.

    Yes, the desire for a relationship and sex are both factors that go hand-in-hand.

    But it’s not an emotionally detached reaction, it’s very much an emotionally-reactive situation. She’s thinking with her gut in that moment, and her gut is saying “I don’t want to lose him.”

  • SayWhaat

    I just happen to be a hard critic when it comes to dancing, so most men would be better served to not dance in front of me. I don’t expect a man to be strong in all pursuits. If he can maximize his potential in 2-4 things/areas, however, that will impress me much more.

    Haha, and this is exactly why guys should lead with what they do best! If you have no idea if you’re dealing with a Sassy or a SayWhaat, just be your best self and let the chips fall where they may. 🙂

  • If I hear a girl tell me this in the upcoming week, I will know who to shake my fist at.

    Susan Walsh: Ruining men’s hook-up game everywhere.

    :p

    PG

  • SayWhaat

    @ BuenaVista:

    J and Anacaona are both loyal wives and mothers of sons. I can assure you that in time you will see why most of the male regulars here have more of a problem with me than with them.

    I understand that you are angry at the system, but please don’t interpret their comments with malice. They really do have men’s interest at heart and have really valuable things to say, if you listen.

    Thanks, BV.

  • Tomato

    “About the way he groped you I think it’s probably because of the way your were dressed which might have conveyed the message that you like cocky men.”

    *raised eyebrow*

  • Sassy6519

    @ Tomato

    *raised eyebrow*

    Hahahaha!!! Yeah, I never addressed that part of the original quote. Oddly enough, I was actually dressed very modestly. I wore a pair of skinny jeans, ballet flats, and a t-shirt that completely covered me up. I was dressed in a very tame fashion, so I don’t think that was the motivator for that guy to grope me. Either he liked how I looked, despite being completely covered, or he liked the way that I danced.

  • BuenaVista

    And once again, I fail to understand that there is no *close reading* on the internet! That’s the problem with being an English major, you read each sentence for its literal content.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    No, it’s not. “Beta bucks” is something that applies once women start hitting the wall with baby fever (if that). No woman I know wants to spend time with a bore for a meal she could easily pay for herself. And few women would go longer than 3 dates with a guy they did not find attractive.

    (One more box for Bingo!)

    Oy! Do you really want to play manosphere bingo with me? Literally every single guy here told me to dump my girlfriend. Well, I think Dogsquat implied that I was probably a dumbass and to only take her back if she was begging, but the point still stands that I am not definitely not your typical “manospherian.”

    Note that I also comment HERE every single day, and do not comment on Heartiste, Roosh, Alpha Game, Rollo, etc.

    Lumping me in with the guys who have heads hard enough to make the Chrobham slabs on an Abrams look like tissue paper is not accurate or respectful.

    ANYWAYS:

    The issue is that Blue Pill beta guys interpret the world differently than normal guys, I should know because I was one. If you’re making a huge issue of sexual escalation and the actual timeline of sex, and he sees all the women here disagreeing with all the men, here’s how he is going to interpret it:

    “Most guys are so mean to be forcing sex on women. I am going to distinguish myself be letting her have time and not forcing sex! Me is genius!”

    Which rapidly degenerates into not feeling comfortable with sexual escalation because you feel like you are imposing on her, which was one of Ted D’s problem, and also was a problem I had, even after the relationship had been firmly established.
    Blue Pill goes deeeeeeeeeep.

    It definitely gets to be that way if that’s the message that is EVERYWHERE.

    The proper message shouldn’t be “if she doesn’t have sex with you, kick her out,” it is “if she isn’t showing sexual interest get out. Sexually escalate, and if she isn’t responding, get out. If she is price discriminating, keep a very, very wary eye on her.”

    Note that most of the Red-Pill aware guys aren’t auto-DQ’ing girls they are interested if they don’t put out right away. I didn’t. Lokland didn’t. Cooper didn’t. Ted never did. Fuck, I think even Zach went on three dates with a girl who only got as far as 2nd base, and most of the guys here were saying “oh, how adorkable!” He’s practically the epitome of the “I-Came” mentality, as far as I can tell.

    This legion of red-pill guys who are auto-dq’in girls for not putting out is definitely more bark than bite, like a lot of the harsher manosphere memes. We really ain’t that bad. Hell, even Rollo is married.

    On the other hand, plenty of us messed up blue pill folk that have some REALLY fucked up ideas, that we did put into practice, and got burned for it.

    But this is a relationship blog for women, so it’s cool. Guys get MMSL or Roissy depending on how bad they are, not HUS. But the message as presented to Blue Pill Boys is going to be totally misinterpreted and they need Red-Pill bashed in on a basically daily basis.

    FWIW, I am aware of several girls that continued dating guys they were not really attracted to because they were stuck in relationship inertia, and girls that tried to force relationships with guys because they liked the emotional support. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but I know it DOES happen, so I want to hedge against it.

    I also know some guys that continue on because of relationship inertia, and I would advise all women to be aware of that, too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ BuenaVista

    And once again, I fail to understand that there is no *close reading* on the internet! That’s the problem with being an English major, you read each sentence for its literal content.

    Who is this sentiment directed towards, exactly?

  • Jackie

    @Buena Vista

    Question for you, BV: Are you a Christian?

    Thanks in advance.

  • Man

    But just those of us worth knowing. The rest are too dumb to be interesting. 😉 But seriously, no quality woman is going to sell herself short.

    Agreed. But we define what “quality” is. I associate “quality” with natural beauty and femininity. And a “quality” woman usually is not for sale. Did you sell yourself?

    Reread #228. If women have no “quality” to offer, then men expect more beauty and sex as a compensation.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Strikes me that women have a couple of choices:
    Carry themselves as not being easy. Carry tnemselves as being easy.
    For the first bunch, pushing sex is, or could be, seen as an imposition. And if a guy is eventually straightened out on the subject, presuming she’s willing eventually, he may have a memory of nomeansyes, or no means keep negotiating. But it’s not at all unreasonable for a guy to read “imposition”.
    So when he runs into a woman for whom no means no, or that the negotiations are somewhat more arcane than the START effort–which meant the reds would put something on the table and let the dems negotiate with the repubs about how much to surrender–his training that a couple more moves and he’s, cough, in might cause some trouble.
    Women wh0 carry themselves as being easy are a lot less trouble, including the miscommunication that could lead to Real Trouble. Presuming, of course, that they’re actually as easy as they advertise.
    Things were a lot more buttoned-up half a century ago, and a lot less trouble. Said it before, at a fraternity reunion, more than three quarters of the guys were married to their college sweethearts. Something must have worked out.

  • HanSolo

    Good comment ADBG. One quibble, most of the “normal” guys are the blue pill guys, or at least have a lot of it floating around in their heads.

  • HanSolo

    No, that was her coming onto Desiderius and saying that she was reading 50 Shades of Gray.

    • No, that was her coming onto Desiderius and saying that she was reading 50 Shades of Gray.

      She did not! He told her that he was a man and knew how to “do things.” Or was that Booth Jonathan? Anyway, we’ve been over Desi’s various pervy field reports many times. I stand by my assessment. He made a lot of women here uncomfortable.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    What about ‘SPHERE-O? Or FAIL-O (Fallacies And Interpretations: Lame)

    The free space can be a picture of Abbot with the word balloon “NO RINGZ 4 SLUTZ!!!111”
    😎

    • The free space can be a picture of Abbot with the word balloon “NO RINGZ 4 SLUTZ!!!111″

      Brilliant!

      Here are some ideas I have for Deti Bingo:

      Alpha Fux, Beta Bux
      Feminine Imperative
      AWALT
      Hamsterbating
      Frivorce
      Alpha Cock Carousel Riders
      Carousel Watchers
      Preferred form of female promiscuity
      HUSsies (Ha!)
      Instill Dread
      Spinning Plates
      Two in the Kitty
      Hypergamous slut
      Female solipsism
      Blow jobs are your job!
      Apex fallacy
      Alpha widow

      How many boxes are we allowed to have?

  • Man

    Unrestricted women have alpha flings, and they don’t switch to restricted beta boyfriends.

    Whom they switch to when they want to settle? Great part of the work being done by men’s movement is to teach men not to take the so called “damaged goods”, precisely because many “nice guys” end up rescuing them. Those guys are being named “Captain Save a Whore”.

    • Whom they switch to when they want to settle?

      They don’t want to settle, that’s how they get to 35 and single. They don’t need to settle, because they make as much or more money than the men they know. A woman simply has no incentive to settle. If she wants a kid, she can have one without stigma, and can buy “designer genes” at a sperm bank rather than reproduce with a man she considers subpar.

  • Sassy6519

    She’s emotionally detached, contemplating the pros and cons of sex vs relationship. Sometimes – by no means always, but often enough it was a trend – you could figure out that by “relationship” she really meant “sex”, as she really had no interest in his personality.

    Admittedly, I have done something like this on maybe 2-3 occasions. Truth be told, I didn’t really care about the guys in question. They offered up commitment to me on a silver platter, and I accepted it because I found them physically attractive with tolerable personalities. I didn’t really care about them personally, and I was not emotionally attached to them. Considering my sex drive, I was more than happy to have a boyfriend to get a steady stream of sex from. It’s not the most noble sentiment, but it is what it is.

    With that being said, I am currently working very hard to not interact with men from such a frame anymore. I’ve pulled myself out of the dating market, and I’m enjoying not feeling any pressure to be in a relationship. I’m embracing being single, and it’s rather nice. Once I become better able to not interact with men from such a negative frame, I will jump back into the fray.

  • SayWhaat

    Lumping me in with the guys who have heads hard enough to make the Chrobham slabs on an Abrams look like tissue paper is not accurate or respectful.

    Well now you know how a fraction of what we feel every time a commenter says we’re all cock carousel riders/watchers, don’t believe us when we state our preferences in men we like to date and what we don’t like, or we’re hamsterbating, or compares us to feminazis!

    The proper message shouldn’t be “if she doesn’t have sex with you, kick her out,” it is “if she isn’t showing sexual interest get out. Sexually escalate, and if she isn’t responding, get out. If she is price discriminating, keep a very, very wary eye on her.”

    Agreed. However, I will note that the arguments were for kicking her out for delaying sex, which is what I was arguing against. Not one male commenter stood up to nuance the argument as you have, otherwise this blue pill/red pill debate would have never started in the first place.

    FWIW, I am aware of several girls that continued dating guys they were not really attracted to because they were stuck in relationship inertia, and girls that tried to force relationships with guys because they liked the emotional support. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but I know it DOES happen, so I want to hedge against it.

    I’m aware of it as well, which is why HUS advises minimum-investment dates at the beginning to filter these girls out.

    I don’t know how a girl could “force a relationship” on a guy for emotional support without his will, though. Could you clarify what you mean by this?

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    *cough* http://www.bingocardgenerator.net/ *cough*

    A card is 5×5. So, 25 squares minus the Free Space (Abbot!) so we need 24 terms per card. Ideally, we could get a few more than that to make things a little more interesting.

    If you wanted to make it even MORE interesting, you could set a line on the # of comments it would take to reach a HUS-O (or a DETI-O). 😉

  • Man

    I’m aware of it as well, which is why HUS advises minimum-investment dates at the beginning to filter these girls out.

    Is there a specific article about this? I am interested even though I understand it and it’s what I have been practicing (when I do consider a relationship). I have to admit that most of the time I have been just MGOTW while looking for the “Whole Package” (perhaps a not so realistic expectation too 🙂 ).

    About clubs, balls, etc. I understand how sick these spaces have become. But that’s where most people go for dating and it’s sort of a way to show that you’re considering a relationship, isn’t it? I mean, is most women actually don’t take the lead and initiative, and don’t even give clues of interest, how do you expect men to know you’re considering a relationship in the first place? Perhaps you’re also WGTOW? 🙂

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Whether she was reading it or not is irrelevant. She was the one that approached him and asked him if he’d read 50 Shades.

    He later said he has never had any intention or desire to act on any flirting he perceived coming his way from his students.

    Here is his reporting of what happened:

    https://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/25/whatguyswant/askmens-great-male-survey-results/comment-page-3/#comment-138099

    BTW, just had an 18-year-old solid nine come up to me at the pool.

    Her: What are you reading?

    Me: McLynn’s biography of Marcus Aurelius.

    Her: Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? (twirl hair, gaze into eyes)

    Me: No, I think it’s bullshit. (hold gaze)

    Her: It’s all about sex.

    Me: And fake dominance. Not interested.

    Her: What is real dominance?

    Me: A man who knows what he’s doing with a woman. (not the best answer, but what can you do?)

    Her: (wide-eyed silence, gaze, grin, licks lips) See you soon… (walks away)

    Crazy world.

    Later in the thread, talking about the pool girl and explaining his interactions at school with his students:

    “She is not, nor has ever been a student of mine. I’m not attracted to my students, although there you get a lot of the girls trying to flirt with you because you’re an authority figure. Never acted on any of that or wanted to.”

    • @HanSolo

      Never acted on any of that or wanted to.”

      He went on to muse that he just might want to “initiate her” into the world of sex and get himself some practice while he was at it, IIRC.

      D. shared several stories of being heavily invested in flirting with his students, telling them how attractive they were, etc. He also took great offense and lost his cool when several women shared how older men had hit on them in adolescence. He said it does not happen, implying the women were lying.

      Finally, his stories were not credible based on his appearance. I’ll leave it at that.

  • mr. wavevector

    Millennial men are more interested in marrying than the women are.

    No they’re not.

    % of … saying having a successful marriage is “one of
    the most important things” in their lives (2010/2011)

    Young Women: 37%
    Young Men: 29%

    Note: Based on 18- to 34-year-olds.

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/04/Women-in-the-Workplace.pdf (page 5)

    • @mr. wavevector

      Saying marriage is “one of the most important things” in life is not the same as expressing a wish to marry. For example, women in particular are invested in avoiding spinsterhood, or not being “able to find a man,” and also in having the opportunity to plan a wedding.

      “Millennial men, ages 21 to 34, are actually MORE eager to marry than Millennial women of the same age, said biological anthropologist Dr. Helen Fisher, one of the designers and analysts of the “Single in America” study, in an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America.

      Gen Y women have enjoyed more gender equality than previous generations. Millennial women, with no husband or children, are making more money than their male counterparts in 39 of the 50 biggest cities in the country, even a whopping 21 percent more in Atlanta, according to a USA Today report last fall. This is one example of empowerment which has undoubtedly had an effect on Millennial women and their eagerness to settle into marriage. Women want to retain their independence.

      The Match.com study findings support that notion.

      When in a relationship, women of all ages are:

      More likely to want girls’ nights than men want boys’ nights (35 percent vs. 23 percent of men)
      More likely to want their own bank account (66 percent vs. 47 percent of men)
      More likely to say they need their personal space (77 percent vs. 58 percent of men)
      More likely to want to vacation without their partners (12 percent vs. 8 percent of men)”

      http://www.examiner.com/article/millennial-men-are-more-eager-to-marry

      Some other data about marriage attitudes among Millennials paints a fuller picture:

      1. “Almost everyone plans on getting married. Only 5 percent of unmarried young adults say it’s “unimportant” to marry someday, while 50 percent say it’s “very important.” About 70 percent say they expect to marry by their early 30s. Getting married is a top priority for young adults, regardless of race. Asians are the most marriage-minded (88 percent), followed by whites (84 percent), Hispanics (83 percent) and blacks (78 percent).”
      http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/19/wetzstein-young-americans-plan-be-married/

      2. “Single men are, on the whole, as likely to want to get married as single women, the survey found. They are more likely than women to be open to dating people of a different race or religion, more prone to falling in love at first sight, more eager to combine bank accounts sooner and more likely to want children.

      …While overall, as many men as women wanted to marry, age played a big role in their preferences. Younger (ages 21 to 24) and older men (50 and up) were more favorably disposed to legal lifetime unions than their female peers. In the between years — the decades when women must pay heed to a uterine deadline — the ratios shift the other way.
      Men’s greater inclination toward parenthood, however, seems to hold across every age group. While more than half the single men ages 21 to 35 wanted kids, only 46% of the women did.”

      http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2046035,00.html

      3. “Overwhelmingly, Americans still venerate marriage enough to want to try it. About 70% of us have been married at least once, according to the 2010 Census. The Pew poll found that although 44% of Americans under 30 believe marriage is heading for extinction, only 5% of those in that age group do not want to get married.

      Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2032116,00.html#ixzz2So8ULWte

      4. “The tradition of marriage is still attractive to singles. Singles’ optimism about marriage has continued to increase over the last three years (2012: 90%; 2011: 78%; 2010: 76%).”

      http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130205-908585.html

      Of course, education plays a major role as well:

      “Marriage rates are now more strongly linked to education than they have been in the past, with college graduates (64%) much more likely to be married than those who have never attended college (48%).

      The racial differences are even larger. Blacks (32%) are much less likely than whites (56%) to be married, and this gap has increased significantly over time. And black children (52%) are nearly three times as likely as white children (18%) and nearly twice as likely as Hispanic children (27%) to live with one parent.”

      http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/11/18/the-decline-of-marriage-and-rise-of-new-families/2/

      Finally, men without college degrees are more likely to delay or avoid marriage because they are financially unstable, influencing their attitudes towards marriage and their likelihood of marrying – they can’t afford it.

  • Say WTF?

    “There are a few who say that a woman shouldn’t be judged harshly for a few mistakes.”

    “Who here believes this? Pee Jay?”

    Probably ALL of us here believe humans shouldn’t be “judged harshly” for a few mistakes. We’ve all made more than a few mistakes during out last times. I’m sure we don’t think WE deserve to be “judged harshly” for them.

    That doesn’t mean we aren’t open to input from others or self reflection. But humans make mistakes, that’s what we do. The reason for that is because we are not perfect.

    The mistakes that DO deserve harsh judgement are those that involved children, such as divorce and single parent dating.

    Funny, isn’t it Say Whaat, that I AM THE ONLY COMMENTER HERE who judges single parents for dating, and yet someone you see fit to make it seem that I’m a “no judgement” Western cultured kook aid swallowing flakey type.

    Well played, deshi. Well played.

    Ahh the things we deshis will do to fit in, innit?

  • SayWhaat

    About clubs, balls, etc. I understand how sick these spaces have become. But that’s where most people go for dating and it’s sort of a way to show that you’re considering a relationship, isn’t it?

    Haha, noooo! I went on a date or two with a guy I met at a bar, but that was when I was way more naive about things than I am now. I wouldn’t consider going on a date with a guy I met at a bar or club. The guys who pick up women at those venues are looking for one thing in particular, and it’s not what I’m looking for. It’s different expectations from the beginning. No bueno.

    I mean, is most women actually don’t take the lead and initiative, and don’t even give clues of interest, how do you expect men to know you’re considering a relationship in the first place?

    Good question, and one that I’m still trying to answer. Basically the word gets out through friends that I’m single, and if I meet a guy who I find interesting, I’ll try to drop some heavy hints like, “Hey, I like [common interest] too! We should hang out sometime”. Or maybe even just a blatant “You should get my number.” (Although I’m unsure if the latter is too forward and conveys DTF…)

    Mostly though, I just did online dating so everything was upfront and clear.

  • SayWhaat

    Funny, isn’t it Say Whaat, that I AM THE ONLY COMMENTER HERE who judges single parents for dating, and yet someone you see fit to make it seem that I’m a “no judgement” Western cultured kook aid swallowing flakey type.

    The hell? I was specifically talking about YOUNG PEOPLE. Single parents had nothing to do with the conversation.

    Ahh the things we deshis will do to fit in, innit?

    Lol. Shut up, PJ.

  • PJayne

    Someone wrong: “As you age, older men will become more atttractive to you and younger men will look like kids.”

    Susan: “This hasn’t happened to me. I still think the most attractive men are in their late 20s. ”

    Hasn’t happened to me either. Of course I’m barely in my early 30s myself so late 20s to me is still kind of “older”. I find mid-20s still the sweet spot. I’m not even opposed to early 20s, provided they have a decent head on their shoulders and between their legs.

  • Say WTF?

    ” Single parents had nothing to do with the conversation.”

    Desi, please.

    Let’s go there then. What DO you think of single parents dating? Hmmm?

  • mr. wavevector

    A woman simply has no incentive to settle. If she wants a kid, she can have one without stigma, and can buy “designer genes” at a sperm bank rather than reproduce with a man she considers subpar.

    Now come on, Susan. You’re dismissing all these other reported female behaviors as being representative of only a small minority. What percentage of women in your target demographic get designer sperm? 1% tops is my guess.

    Raising kids alone is damn hard work. Having a high paying job doesn’t make it all that much easier, because jobs that pay a lot of money are often highly demanding of time and energy. The vast majority of women who want kids want a partner to raise them with. Even the women freezing their eggs to prolong their fertility are hoping to acquire a male partner before having kids.

    • @mr. wavevector

      Millennial female attitudes about marriage have changed dramatically, and most (more than their male counterparts) state they would not consider marriage without sexual attraction. More than 90% of both sexes want to marry a soulmate, and as women outperform men, they’re going to have a harder time finding that unless they are hypogamous.

      I see no evidence that women are marrying men they’re not hot for.

  • @SayWhaat

    They really do have men’s interest at heart and have really valuable things to say, if you listen.

    Yes, they do. Frankly, all the female regulars around here (with one exception) have *saintly* patience, considering women’s concerns aren’t anywhere close to being discussed proportionally…

  • Jackie

    @PJ

    PJ, re: single parents dating, what about widows and widowers?

    It’s interesting in that my father agrees with you! My mom was the love of his life and I believe he thinks any other relationship would be a pale imitation in comparison. He has never gotten over her. And I don’t think he ever shall.

    But if he –somehow– found love and companionship again, I would be thrilled.

    Judging by your comments, he should be waiting for the grim spectre of Death and its scythe to help him shuck off this mortal coil.

    But, I think life is for the living. And if love knocks at your door, you should joyfully welcome it. Peace–

  • I think that guy has the recipe for an easy DTR

    http://youtu.be/cdwoGgWp62U

  • Anacaona

    How many boxes are we allowed to have?
    More boxes
    Women hate Betas.
    Women don’t know what turns them on.
    Don’t listen to what a woman says, watch what they do. But if they do something that disagrees with Game then she is an outlier don’t bother trying to find one. No worth it.

  • Anacaona

    I think that guy has the recipe for an easy DTR

    http://youtu.be/cdwoGgWp62U
    KILL.ME.NOW
    Is it me or there are more asshole faced guys in the media lately? Just ewwwwwwww I know I’m a bore ‘get of my lawn’ :p

  • lavazza1891

    “So the ideal has gone from “no sex until marriage” to “no sex until monogamy.””

    Well, serial monogamy is the female preference for promiscuity.

    The male preference is unilateral commitment to monogamy from at least one woman, without male commitment to monogamy.

    Hard monogamy (no sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage, no non-sex inside of marriage, no divorce) is too much of a compromise for women to bear.

    Anyway, if a woman needs to have “The Talk”, she is hooking up outside of her league.

    • @Lavazza

      Well, serial monogamy is the female preference for promiscuity.

      Deti Bingo square filled in!

      Wrong. The vast majority of both single men and women select serial monogamy as a precursor to marriage. It’s called dating.

      Anyway, if a woman needs to have “The Talk”, she is hooking up outside of her league.

      Wrong again. Every relationship requires the talk to become official. And half of college kids are in relationships.

      You need to get out of the manosphere while you still can!

  • szopen

    @Sassy

    I like it when a man puts his best foot forward.

    So, if I ever would be in a situation to date a girl, I should take my laptop with me to the disco and coding while dancing. Shouldn’t be that hard if I would practice few months before that.

  • szopen

    But anyway, what I get from this thread and few others in the past in HUS, that when I daughter will be old enough, should I recommend her an approach “I would want to, but I am too affrad” or “I would want to but I can not”?

  • mr. wavevector

    Susan, you are in an unusually reactive mood. Those ‘spherians must be getting under your skin!

    Well, serial monogamy is the female preference for promiscuity.

    Deti Bingo square filled in!

    Wrong. The vast majority of both single men and women select serial monogamy as a precursor to marriage. It’s called dating.

    The point isn’t that most women are promiscuous. It is that those who are promiscuous favor serial monogamy. You yourself gave support to this idea recently:

    My sense is that it is the extramarital affair, motivated not by a desire to get a good genes baby while maintaining the marriage, but to move on from the marriage in most cases. As one sociologist said, the woman wants to replace her zero with a hero.

    • @mr. wavevector

      Among young single people, the term serial monogamist refers to someone who is incapable of being alone. They lurch from one relationship to another with no breaks in between. For this reason, they usually date less attractive people, as they continually must choose their next relationship partner from among their friends.

      Only a small minority of people conduct their love lives this way.

      In the sphere, serial monogamy refers to the practice of dating people without the intent of marriage. A woman who has four boyfriends in the ten years from age 18-28 is a practitioner of serial monogamy. The sphere claims that she makes this choice in order to bang alphas before choosing a loser as she prepares to hit the wall at 30.

      In reality, the climbing average age at marriage means that people want relationships in the years before they are ready to marry. This is true for both sexes. Unprecedented in history, we currently wait 16 years between puberty and marriage. The sphere’s answer is marry at 18. Not going to happen.

  • Tomato

    “no non-sex inside of marriage”

    What is this, exactly?

  • Man

    Basically the word gets out through friends that I’m single, and if I meet a guy who I find interesting, I’ll try to drop some heavy hints like, “Hey, I like [common interest] too! We should hang out sometime”. Or maybe even just a blatant “You should get my number.”

    Actually whatever. Men are usually very straightforward. So I think taking the initiative, Lay It On the Line and DTR talk works best for women, provided she’s able to correctly assess the mate. Be prepared however also for outright rejections and to move on too.

  • Escoffier

    I was at a black tie thing Monday night in Manhattan. Probably 700 people. The number of couples in which the man was noticably older than the woman was significant. As in, gray man + nubile blonde. I gather the population was skewed because this was a rather 1% crowd, but still.

    The girl/woman sitting next to me could not have been over 30, and probably was not much past 25 but her “date” on the other side of the table had to be at least 50. BTW, he was not a 1%er but a journalist.

    • @Escoffier

      Any man at a black tie event is high status. It’s hardly surprising that high status 50 yo’s can get dates with nubile blondes. They buy them.

  • BroHamlet

    Susan, allow me to pop in briefly:

    Great advice. Basically boils down to being able to look people in the eye and tell them what you want, while being ready to walk if you don’t get the answer you need to hear. I think this is gold for the college crowd and it’s best learned early. Outside of college, it’s maybe a little more complicated for girls in that guys know (at least those of us who are in bigger cities with a large dating pool) that they are dealing with a wider range of female motivations from a dating point of view and are probably a little bit more difficult to convince (side effects of “serial monogamy” and the dating status quo as some here are describing). But the concept still holds- if you stick to your guns in every sense of the word you should have no problem having “the talk”.

    Just a note on your verbiage: I notice you use the term “strategy” quite a bit. That’s fine, but just know that when you mention delaying sex as a “strategy” it frames the action as something that can or should be employed whether it’s genuine or not. “Game” of a sort- and the type that has the potential to cause the most strife as evidenced by the contentious discussions that ensue whenever it’s brought up. “Price discrimination” and all that. For your readership, it’s probably better to frame it as something closer to a way of life that they should seek to internalize if that is how they *truly* are- a set of standards for their behavior that they rarely if ever break, if they want to employ the direct strategy you are proposing. You can try to talk the walk, but it’s probably not sustainable.

    • @BroHamlet

      I’m very happy to see you comment! You are always welcome here.

      Just a note on your verbiage: I notice you use the term “strategy” quite a bit. That’s fine, but just know that when you mention delaying sex as a “strategy” it frames the action as something that can or should be employed whether it’s genuine or not.

      Wow, that is not my intent! I think ethics are always applicable – strategy alone leaves us with “what works for me,” which is a sociopathic way of relating to others. Thanks for pointing this out – I will try to make that clearer in future, especially since I am so critical of those who eschew ethics in favor of strategy alone.

  • Tomato

    Never mind, I got thrown by the phrasing. Carry on.

    Regardless, the concept of no sex before marriage is certainly too much for many men to bear as well.

  • Man

    @mr. wavevector: I think Susan has a pretty good understanding of both male and female psychology/instincts and the SMP.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The brain of an 18 year-old is less capable of sound judgment, so any task requiring judgment will be performed better by a 30yo.”

    Depends upon the task at hand.
    The goals of a 30 vs 18yo women are not identical or even similar.

    If one were to observe that most women seem to have an alpha chasing/seeking period (where mistakes may or may not be made) it would make sense to assume that in the ancient past this stage was better for the fitness of the women using it then one who went beta from the get go.

    Hence the 18yo brain is probably just doing what it is designed to do which is go up the ladder a bit and maybe make some mistakes.

    To say that they are incapable of sound judgement is somewhat pointless because an 18yo is better at acting like a fit 18yo than a 30yo woman. So ‘sound’ judgement as you call it is not necessary for an 18yo and may in fact be a disadvantage at that age.

    • @Lokland

      it would make sense to assume that in the ancient past this stage was better for the fitness of the women using it then one who went beta from the get go.

      I’m reading a fascinating book – Paleofantasy – that describes in detail what we know about evolution, and what we don’t know. Various popular memes (like the Paleo diet) are examined and debunked based on what we know. Most of evo psych is based on what it would make sense to assume, but it’s no more reliable than constructing a possible explanation for how a murderer could have committed the crime and gotten back to his house in under an hour. I’m finding it rather distressing, frankly, given the emphasis I’ve placed on evo psych theories.

  • SayWhaat

    Be prepared however also for outright rejections and to move on too.

    Ain’t my first time at the rodeo. 😉

  • KILL.ME.NOW
    Is it me or there are more asshole faced guys in the media lately? Just ewwwwwwww I know I’m a bore ‘get of my lawn’ :p

    LOL Ana, that commercial is a parody, it is over the top and ridiculous on purpose. Come on, that guy is not asshole faced, he’s just playing the over-confident dude at the beach. You said yourself that men who are too hot are likely in your mind to be players or douches. I understand the reasoning ( I tend to think similarly) but I’m sure not all of them are like that.

  • Man

    How to approach women and have the DTR talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClIjJSPwQpE 🙂

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @SayWhat

    Well now you know how a fraction of what we feel every time a commenter says we’re all cock carousel riders/watchers, don’t believe us when we state our preferences in men we like to date and what we don’t like, or we’re hamsterbating, or compares us to feminazis!

    This isn’t exactly the first time this has ever happened to me. Internet is bigger than HUS 😉
    I am actually on Fundies Say the Darndest Things, because someone took one of my comments out of context. I’m not even religious and was raised in a non-religious household, but, hey, doesn’t stop me from being mischaracterized as an intolerant religious fundamentalist somehow.

    Anyways, on the actual substance:

    Agreed. However, I will note that the arguments were for kicking her out for delaying sex, which is what I was arguing against. Not one male commenter stood up to nuance the argument as you have, otherwise this blue pill/red pill debate would have never started in the first place.

    Beat

    I’m aware of it as well, which is why HUS advises minimum-investment dates at the beginning to filter these girls out.

    I don’t know how a girl could “force a relationship” on a guy for emotional support without his will, though. Could you clarify what you mean by this?

    I’ll answer the question on “forcing a relationship” first. I don’t mean that the guys weren’t willing participants, I mean that the girls weren’t really THAT into the guys, but wanted a relationship, so kept the relationship going. Fear of being alone, didn’t want to be a loser without a boyfriend, whatever.

    I don’t have an idea of frequency. I cannot even estimate for my social circle. I do know my atheist friend was dating a hard-core Lutheran for several years, and the Lutheran girl barely expressed any interest in him for at least a year until he dumped a year. She was also committed to being a virgin, until she, you know, had a One Night Stand at a wedding, and then told her Atheist Boyfriend about it.

    I also know one of my closer female friends had a boyfriend she lost interest in, kept around, cheated on 7 or 8 times, and then tried to badger him into marrying her. He wouldn’t, so she dumped him, now she’s getting married to some other guy.

    Those ones are the most salient ones in my head. Granted, those had small sparks of attraction in the early phases, but they were small indeed (more of a lack of options, the second girl was literally picking her second choice, cause I was her first at the time), and then when they faded there was no real companionship. Woops!

    Those guys never should have been very invested in those relationships in the first place…but they also didn’t have a lot of options, so, meh.

    Anyways, hope that answers your question.

    As for the rest of the discussion, specifically none of the guys offering nuance: yeah, guys will dig in and argue shit that doesn’t make sense and they don’t necessarily believe, sometimes as much as women will, lol. It all depends on how something is phrased and obviously on your audience. This audience is manosphere activists with their tidbits of manosphere wisdom, and the advice sometimes sounds superficially like “Make him wait for sex.”

    Yeah, that might be danger-zone. And if guys perceive they are being attacked or threatened, they’ll dig in heels and lob back, just like girls do.

    But, you know, look at what men do, not what they say, applies to guys as much as girls. We’re just extremely sensitive to “changing lanes” and price discrimination and the like, so we will do our best to make sure that doesn’t happen to us.

    It’s not a positive feeling.

    So, yes, the absolute best advice for a girl is to delay sex until commitment and never hook up. In fact, I think that’s so essential, it should be the entire defintion of “Hooking Up Smart.” Flash it in bold neon letters from the White House and blast it into the moon with a laser.

    Guys get a different message. If I were to run “Hooking Up Smart” for guys, it wouldn’t have that message at the top, it would have, as YaReally would have put it “Make the Ho say No” and “Pound the Pavement.” As in, always be sexually escalating and see how she responds, then make your decisions based on that. And you should always be looking for new girls when you are single.

    That doesn’t mean dump her if she says No, just that you need to push the envelope and it’s up to her to reel it back.

    Also means, don’t get invested in any single girl, and always go out looking for new girls. Until in a relationship, obviously, but while single, Pound the Pavement.

    OTHERWISE, what you get is a guy who, says, bakes cupcakes with a girl, and they have a nice conversation, and he thinks “oh, my, how much I like this girl!” when really nothing is happening. And then maybe a few weeks later, he goes out to, say, a Museum with her, and they talk some more, and he thinks to himself “wow, she’s smart, too! I enjoy spending time with her.”

    But, you know, nothing’s happening, and he has no REAL indication that she is into him, other than as a platonic friend.

    BTW, that was me about 5 years ago, and, no, I didn’t end up dating that girl…she ended up going through what she calls her “recycyling period.”

    Live and learn, things are better now, but I did not approach those interactions the right way. The best way to get the message across would have been “Is she sleeping with you? Cause she slept with these other guys. Clearly she isn’t that into you. Move on.”

    Now, I know you understand this, and I know the women here understand this, too. I’m not trying to call you dumb or anything. But it IS a genuine male issue that men need to understand how to work through. I have an extremely “boring” Beta friend with this problem. He gets plenty of first dates, he dresses well, speaks okay, is an archtiect, not heinous, etc.

    Never gets the 2nd date. Boring as f*. Overly polite. And in most cases, the girls just don’t talk to him again.

    And that’s perfectly consistent with most girls being okay actors in the SMP. Most are nice enough.

    But how does it end? And end it must. He cannot go on first dates forever.
    1. He dies
    2. He gives up and stops looking
    3. Some girl adds him as a Beta Orbiter
    4. He eventualy runs into some girl that appreciates his extreme beta-ness
    5. Some girl ends up trying to “force” the relationship because she has no options

    Unless he makes a change, that’s the only way it ends. Obviously we would like “4,” but we have no idea how likely THAT is compared to the other options.

    Actually, I’ll just save the suspense. 3 happened. He eventually ran into a girl he “clicked” with and he really likes. She liked him platonically. Now she’s got a different boyfriend and keeps him around as a Beta Orbiter.

    So, yes, most girls won’t date a guy more than a few times if she doesn’t find him attractive.

    But for the guys in the Beta with no skills bucket, it doesn’t necessarily have a happy ending. It could mean, for him, that most girls reject him, until he finds the girl that is desperate and claws into him.

    The solution for him is to obviosuly test for compatibility and attraction early on.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man,

    @mr. wavevector: I think Susan has a pretty good understanding of both male and female psychology/instincts and the SMP.

    I do to, but she isn’t in top form in this comment thread.

    It appears to me that she is annoyed at all the red-pill nonsense, which is understandable, but her hasty rejoinders are missing the mark both in fact and interpretation.

    And how about comment 324: women make more money than men, don’t need to settle, can just go to the sperm bank. That’s a bit radfem-ish, and strange advice to young women looking for boyfriends.

    I understand that red-pill radicalism is offensive and threatening to women in the same way feminist radicalism is offensive and threatening to men. Let’s discuss that rather than just reacting to provocations.

    P.S. The bingo is a bad idea. One manboobz is enough for the internet. HUS is better than that.

    • I understand that red-pill radicalism is offensive and threatening to women in the same way feminist radicalism is offensive and threatening to men. Let’s discuss that rather than just reacting to provocations.

      P.S. The bingo is a bad idea. One manboobz is enough for the internet. HUS is better than that.

      I was feeling rather peevish yesterday. I am so tired of these red pill knuckleheads. (Offline incidents, emails and conversations occur from time to time that are not shared here.) I’m better now.

      My tone may have been off, but the data is very clear on there being no marriage strike. I think Millennials are going to marry at a higher rate. We’ll see.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Did my post get eaten?!

    dammit! I spent like 20 minutes writing that, lol

    • @ADBG

      Rescued from the dustbin of the spam filter!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “While more than half the single men ages 21 to 35 wanted kids, only 46% of the women did.””

    A thought. Pre-civilization men did not have to act like dads but doing so increased their reproductive potential. This lead to selection of men favouring the dad strategy and actually wanting to care for children.

    Women had no choice and thus there was no need to develop a drive to reproduce/have children because for them being a parent was merely a part of sex. No selection occurred (or less than on men) because it was not required.

  • Szopen…best foot forward…”I should take my laptop with me to the disco and coding while dancing. Shouldn’t be that hard if I would practice few months before that.”

    It could be a new event on Dancing with the Stars! Two panels of judges, one assessing the quality of the dancing and the other assessing whether the program that was written actually works. To win, you have to succeed at BOTH.

  • Lokland

    “The unprovoked cheap shots against Desi, who hasn’t even been here in ages and presumably will never come back, are also not showing you at your best.”

    Yes I suspect the next few days will be focused on the ‘men are evil’ and/or ‘manosphere guys are pathetic losers who can’t get laid’ memes that seems to be popping up more and more frequently.

    • Yes I suspect the next few days will be focused on the ‘men are evil’ and/or ‘manosphere guys are pathetic losers who can’t get laid’ memes that seems to be popping up more and more frequently.

      That’s nonsense. However, I will always reserve the right to call out a true creep when one shows up here.

  • Escoffier

    You forgot “Why are supposedly happily married men even commenting here? There must be something really wrong with them.”

    • @Escoffier

      You forgot “Why are supposedly happily married men even commenting here? There must be something really wrong with them.”

      That question, without the editorial afterthought, is a fair question at a blog written for young single women. I don’t see why you would object to answering it.

      Personally, I think people have all kinds of valid reasons for coming to HUS, including the fact that they find the subject matter interesting. What strikes some female commenters (including myself at times) odd is when a happily married man appears obsessed with issues of hypergamy and frivolous divorce. There have been times when those kinds of fixations have derailed whole conversations here – to the point where 20-something women are forced to defend themselves against men their fathers’ age. If I promoted my blog by offering that opportunity, I’d have few takers.

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    Good catch. How could I forget the bread and butter…

  • Man

    @mr. wavevector: I don’t get that (she was answering to me). She understands perfectly where I come from and what I am talking about. She also seems to understand perfectly all the pitfalls of feminism and the wrong choices that women have made and are still doing. From women I have come in touch with, I would rate her relative to average female EI to approximately 10000 or more (no kidding or flattering intended 🙂 ).

    I am also to blame for still regurgitating some red pill content and I hate all this alpha-beta talk. But I sometimes I like to bring up some harsh realities a lot of people, especially women, are not aware of.

    I understand that red-pill radicalism is offensive and threatening to women in the same way feminist radicalism is offensive and threatening to men.

    As far as men on general are concerned, they will continue to react the way they are wired too. And I really don’t like what I see. All this alpha-beta talk is really offensive in the first place and begets red-pill radicalism.

    HUS is better than that.

    Agreed.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, like I said, in this case the man was a journalist and schlumpy to boot. No money. Very smart and witty, though.

    And, of course, it’s not like she met him at the black tie event, they had to know each other before, so neither the DJ nor the event gave him the status to snag her. He had to get that through some other means (I suspect professional status plus the aforementioned smarts and wit).

    The point is, if men of a certain age are so universally icky, especially to younger women, I should not see these pairings in the numbers I see them.

    • Susan, like I said, in this case the man was a journalist and schlumpy to boot. No money. Very smart and witty, though.

      Well, in my 20s I had a crush on David Stockman. In my 30s I had a crush on Paul Gigot. For some of us, smart really does bring the tingles.

  • Zach

    @Escoffier

    Re: older men and younger women. As a native New Yorker I’m going to have to say this is somewhat unique to Manhattan, and even within that largely confined to the 1%. But you’re right, go to any sufficiently nice restaurant in NYC (the fancy ones such as Grenouille, Bernardin, Del Posto, etc not the trendy ones) and you’re highly likely to see at least a few old man/gorgeous 20-something woman couples at dinner.

    @SayWhaat, and @others

    I’m always a little perplexed by the attitude towards meeting women/men at bars. Since college, I’d say probably 40% of my friends’ relationships have come out of meeting someone at a bar. It’s called a “meat/meet market” for a reason. People go to these places to (among other things) meet people of the opposite sex. I would also say that if you drew a venn diagram of people who want relationships and people who frequent bars, there would be a large overlap. So if both people at the bar want to meet someone to date, then is the argument that the setting itself (the bar) is detrimental to potential relationships??

    Also, before everyone starts advocating meet people at yoga/art/cooking class, bookstores, coffees shops, etc, that’s a VERY hard thing to do. Most women have impenetrable man shields up when they do these things. They’re generally looking to not be bothered by men. So as a man, hitting on women at these sorts of things will either quickly get you labeled a “creep”, or will end up with you being rejected pretty much “pitch unheard” (ie after only a few words).

    • The older man, young woman thing always follows a predictable path. The older guys swear that hot young chicks dig older guys. The younger guys don’t see it. Younger women, for the most part, swear it ain’t so.

      None of these is mutually exclusive. A guy in his 50s with status can fill his life with young women, even though they may represent a very small percentage of the population.

      The research on this is very clear. Women overwhelmingly prefer men 2.5 years older than they are. If they want children, they want dad to be young. And they have a strong preference for marrying men who have never been married and who do not have children.

      However, female preferences vary, and the potential tradeoffs are infinite. Generally, women trade youth for status – prestige and money. Everyone knows this. A man in his 50s who thinks his body is as attractive as it was 25 years ago is delusional. That’s not why she’s with you. She’s with you because 50 with status is preferable (to her) to 25 without status. No woman would claim that an older man is more physically attractive – it’s just that this is not the only thing women seek.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    You’re mixing up two stories. He considered acting on the flirtations of the 18 y/o lifeguard who approached him. Also, she was already sexually active so he wouldn’t be initiating her into sex.

    Anyway, you disagreed with me when I pointed out that she approached and brought up 50 Shades. I provided the evidence to back up my statement. I’m sorry that it showed your assertion was wrong but it did just that.

    • @HanSolo

      You did. While I recall very well the disgust I felt with him, I do not recall the exact nature of the conversation. Nor do I believe that his report is “evidence” of anything that actually happened. I do recall his suggesting in some way that he could offer her sexual tutelage as an older man.

      That was one of three or four different conversations here around his suggestive behavior around girls as young as 14. I recall providing a quote to you from alpha game where he boasted that he enjoys sexual attraction from girls as young as 14. He has accused me of being over-protective of young girls, who he claims are quite sexual at a young age these days.

      I don’t know why you feel the need to defend him, but there were quite a few women who were offended by his behavior.

      And that’s the last I’ll say on D. I made a joke with a commenter, I had no expectation it would conjure you in white knight mode.

  • mr. wavevector

    I am going to add fuel to the older man / younger women flames.

    First, I will go on record to state I have not pursued any such relationship, nor would I if I were single.

    I have recounted here before some stories of receiving unsolicited sexual and romantic attention from women 15-20 years my junior. I don’t encounter very many young women in my daily activities, so the fact this has happened to me suggests this behavior is not highly unusual.

    It has nothing to do with my physical looks, which are adequate but not impressive. I agree with Susan that male and female physical attractiveness peaks in the 20’s and goes downhill from there. And I was never all that to begin with.

    I think these young women’s apparent interest was primarily due to the lack of emotionally and psychologically attractive men their own age. Despite my unprepossessing looks, I act like a man. Many of their male peers don’t. That’s something these young women are hungry for – one even told me as much.

    So what was the attraction? According to my pet theory, I exhibited some of the benevolent masculine dominance that these young women subconsciously desired but found lacking in their male peers.

    – Dominance: I had higher educational and career accomplishment, higher status, more confidence, greater assertiveness than both their male peers and them, but I was not coercive or overpowering.

    – Masculine: I was born into a world where being a man was still a good thing. Feminism’s subsequent assault on masculinity has not completely dissuaded me of that belief. That distinguished me from those younger men who were insecure in their manhood.

    – Benevolence. I treated them with respect and kindness and took an interest in them. I listened to them – I know how to listen to women as a man, not a girlfriend. I showed a controlled measure of emotional engagement. I was going for the platonic, avuncular approach – I specifically did not want to appear sexually or romantically interested for fear of being creepy. I had enough dominance creds so my interest did not come across as supplicating. Despite my efforts to put myself in the friend zone, I still triggered a sexual/romantic response. I think my interest in them was more substantial than they were accustomed to from younger men.

    Again, I am not advocating for this type of relationship. Even if I were single, I would personally feel I was shortchanging a younger woman. However, I still find that an older man can be attractive to some non-trivial set of younger women despite his loss of physical attractiveness if he can provide the psychological benefits she seeks from a man, and if she is unable to find those benefits in men her own age.

    • I still find that an older man can be attractive to some non-trivial set of younger women despite his loss of physical attractiveness if he can provide the psychological benefits she seeks from a man, and if she is unable to find those benefits in men her own age.

      That’s a good point. In an era when adolescence officially extends to age 26, many women that age are disappointed in men their own age.

      I also think there’s a difference between romantic attention and dating for marriage. I’ve heard women say that having a thing with an older man is on their bucket list – it’s like going to a foreign country for a visit, even though you don’t want to live there.

      The niece of a good friend of mine is 28, and has always dated older men exclusively. Despite graduating from Columbia, she has never worked. She currently has a loft in Soho and very generous monthly allowance from an older man who she sees whenever he comes to NY on business. She has recently lured in someone very high up at Google – he has proposed with a “no prenup” promise. She’s thinking she just may go for it.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Stockman? So what about Pete Orszag? He’s easily the best-looking OMB director in quite some time.

    • So what about Pete Orszag?

      He never did it for me, but he did win over that money honey for marriage.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    While overall, as many men as women wanted to marry, age played a big role in their preferences. Younger (ages 21 to 24) and older men (50 and up) were more favorably disposed to legal lifetime unions than their female peers. In the between years — the decades when women must pay heed to a uterine deadline — the ratios shift the other way.

    I take that as evidence in my favor. The “in between years” are the demographic we’re talking about, where apparently women are more favorably disposed towards marriage than men.

    Millennial men, ages 21 to 34, are actually MORE eager to marry than Millennial women of the same age, said biological anthropologist Dr. Helen Fisher

    That’s evidence in your favor. But I haven’t been able to find any quantitative Match.com survey results, without which it’s impossible to know exactly what Fisher is talking about.

    So the evidence for which sex is more interested in marriage appears ambiguous.

    I see no evidence that women are marrying men they’re not hot for.

    I didn’t suggest they do. I’m pointing out that the number of women who don’t settle and opt for the sperm bank instead are small in number. Others don’t settle and just don’t get married. The marriage rate and the percentage of married people is still declining, even among the college educated.

    In the sphere, serial monogamy refers to the practice of dating people without the intent of marriage.

    Not necessarily – some refer to the cycle of marriage, divorce and remarriage as serial monogamy. That seems like an appropriate use of the term. The critics of divorce often relate women’s higher rate of divorce filing to their supposed preference for serial monogamy. Dalrock is a prime example.

    the data is very clear on there being no marriage strike

    While the data on whether young men or women are more interested in marriage is ambiguous, I agree that there is no evidence of a marriage strike. Rather, it there appears to be an increasing marriage procrastination. Like all procrastinators, some will never get it done.

    • The “in between years” are the demographic we’re talking about, where apparently women are more favorably disposed towards marriage than men.

      Not really – the oldest Millennials are 32. In any case, the numbers are very close both before and in-between.

      Not necessarily – some refer to the cycle of marriage, divorce and remarriage as serial monogamy.

      Dalrock has used HUSsie sluts as a prime example of women pursuing a serial monogamy strategy, so I don’t believe that is true. If it is, it’s not the majority view.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Much obliged for the spam rescue, Susan.

    Anyways the answer to the question of “why would a guy think a girl isn’t into him if she’s delaying sex” is still mostly what Lokland said, even if it is a tired manosphere meme, so to speak. Men also must be aware of SMPredators, and we have our own strategies and ways of judging the women with whom we interact.

    In particular, this one may be borne out of PI regarding how many women are riding the carousel, take Beta Providers for a ride, etc, but it’s just the extreme end of a general idea that guys have to follow.

  • mr. wavevector

    Generally, women trade youth for status – prestige and money.

    Also security and feeling “taken care of”. Some women really crave that, and an older man may be more able to deliver it – possibly more in terms of personal gravitas and character than resources.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I guess I wanted to correct the record because I have a sense of fairness and simply wanted to point out that she approached him at the pool and not him and that she was the one to bring up 50 Shades. This was in contrast to the commenter who said the guy approached her. In response to me you could have just said, “oh yeah, not him,” or simply, “I was just joking.”

    In that same sense of fairness, his remark on alphagame did seem like he was going too far by sharing that moment of mutual attraction (in his mind, according to his report) with the 14 y/o and veering into the inappropriate (though he didn’t act on it). Would have been better for him to just avoid her and not think about her.

    On that thread where you were talking about inappropriate comments from the dads you babysat for, I mentioned that I wish I could have punched him out. So don’t go thinking I have some desire to embolden young-teen molesters.

    • @HanSolo

      So don’t go thinking I have some desire to embolden young-teen molesters.

      No worries, I never thought that! I know that you are most interested in being fair, but I do think you have some bias towards men, even when badly behaved. INTJ is another example of this. Sometimes fairness means telling it like it is, not protecting someone from the consequences of their own behavior.

  • Anacaona

    You said yourself that men who are too hot are likely in your mind to be players or douches.
    Actually is not too hot the problem. I don’t mind hot looking guys (Robert Pattinson is very hot but he looks nice and goofy so I like him quite alright) is the “I own the room’ attitude that reads asshole to me. Most accomplish people I know are hard working and insecure about their achievements so 9 times out of 10 an over confident guy is usually an asshole. And the ones that actually have some real success to back their attitude just treat you like you should be sucking their cock at their mere sight, YMMV.

  • Jonathan

    @Susan

    Yes, I remember your matrix. It’s helpful but incomplete. My point, in part, was that a woman who waits on sex runs a high risk that the man will interpret her caution as a sign of lack of interest. Since both men and women seem, per discussion here, to understand the signalling issues it’s reasonable for men to behave as they do.

    None of this is to say that women should be quick to have sex. Young women (who have more time) and very attractive women (who have more options) can afford to be pickier and probably should be if they want to get hitched. However, older women should be particularly careful not to give misleading signals to men they are attracted to.

    • @Jonathan

      My point, in part, was that a woman who waits on sex runs a high risk that the man will interpret her caution as a sign of lack of interest.

      Right, and that’s the “one that got away” problem. FWIW, I always advise women to express their attraction clearly even as they delay sex. This is the kind of thing women have told me they have said, which seems to work well in reassuring the guy that it’s not him, it’s timing:

      “Look, I don’t do casual, so I want to stop. But I am so tempted right now. I hope we’ll get there.”

      Basically, the terms of the sex for commitment exchange must be clearly communicated. I think Gin Martini’s wife, though she was quite matter of fact, clearly signaled that she was prepared to continue if they were exclusive.

  • BroHamlet

    Susan,

    RE: ethics vs. strategy.
    Yes, you could be a bit clearer in your intent at times. I’m pretty sure most of your (male) critics have probably balked at you for leaving things up to interpretation (and some may assume the worst). The piece about the elements of your behavior and your stated wants being consistent is really important to men, not necessarily from an ethical perspective- the ethics are sometimes blurry in situations before commitment is agreed to, but because in general, men are principled. In general they do value that they can trust that you are what you say you are. Men notice how many white lies girls are prone to tell (“I never do this”, etc), so it’s better to err on the side of demonstrating in no uncertain terms what your standards are and not breaking them so he doesn’t have reason to doubt. That’s why this post is so golden- because it’s a proactive demonstration of values.

    So, how does this relate to “strategy”? You’ve heard it before- the best “game” is none at all. No strategy. Just being who and what you are. Then there is no reason for people to doubt your intent. As it pertains to this blog, what you are proposing shouldn’t be employed with the intent of using it as a “move” or a “strategy”, but as a way to communicate your actual standards. There is a subtle but very important difference, and men who know can sense it and will consider carefully even if the woman in question is well within her ethical right to play the cards close or stick to the script. The language you use here should be crystal clear on that. Not calling you out, just pointing out that detail- men are just like women in the sense of sussing out whether someone’s saying something because it’s what they’re supposed to say to implement a tactic.

    • @BroHamlet

      Men notice how many white lies girls are prone to tell (“I never do this”, etc), so it’s better to err on the side of demonstrating in no uncertain terms what your standards are and not breaking them so he doesn’t have reason to doubt. That’s why this post is so golden- because it’s a proactive demonstration of values.

      I like that. The idea that it’s useful and smart to provide evidence of character. Also to provide reassurance re the attraction and even express hope that things will work out.

      As it pertains to this blog, what you are proposing shouldn’t be employed with the intent of using it as a “move” or a “strategy”, but as a way to communicate your actual standards.

      +1 We have called this inner game, but it’s the absence of tactics that makes it trustworthy.

  • Anacaona

    You forgot “Why are supposedly happily married men even commenting here? There must be something really wrong with them.”
    Incomplete why so called happily married man are advising young men that they have it better being bitterly single and lonely. Of course you explained the part about being happy with their personal wife but considering there is not enough wife material for the single guys but there is another problem.
    This is not a forum full of PUA’s swimming on punani and that don’t want to commit or find a steady girlfriend or have children. This is a forum for girls but the guys that come here want to have sex and love and they are more likely to get it from the more restricted crowd and is very likely those girls that are best for them are going to want the ring along with it. Hence the problem with this ‘caring advice’ is not that sound when you pick it apart, YMMV.

  • Cee

    In between relationships I have seen a guy significantly older than me – I’m 24 and he’s 47 – and in a place like New York City, it’s much more common than you’d imagine. Sure at times we’d get some funny, even judgmental, looks , however that could have also been compounded by the fact that he was Eastern European and I’m West African.

    Either way, he served as a confidant and provider of sorts. He gifted me with rather expensive items, helped me access some places and things I’d otherwise never get an opportunity to and provided me with needed distraction as I would see much more practical and age appropriate prospects. I suppose I provided him with sufficient enough arm and eye candy as there was no sex involved – believe it or not.

    I loved his mind , but didn’t particularly care for him physically, he sought to change that in the beginning, but eventually just accepted the friendship for what it was, I think he just enjoyed the company. Ultimately, I think I gained more than he did from the companionship.

    This seems to be the general dynamic I’ve observed in these sort of relationships. The young women kind of use older men as a a sort of come-up while they date around looking for men who they can see themselves settling down with, sure some fall in love in the meantime, but it’s rare.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Yes, but telling it like it is was all I was doing with the pool incident. When I read you comment I simply remembered that it was she and not he that approached and brought up 50 Shades. That was all I was pointing out and thinking in the moment.

    Upon further reflection, I think that the deeper, subconscious motivation going on was that I think that men are being accused excessively of things they haven’t done and so I tend to respond when I see cases of that. Kind of along the lines of the Judith Grossman story where her son was apparently innocent. There are enough actual bad things that go on without needing to exaggerate things.

    In D’s case, the simple fact was that she approached him and brought up sex, not him. That doesn’t mean he may not have done other things that were inappropriate.

    As to having a bit of a male bias, I don’t think I do at heart. I think I want fairness for all. However, the culture is broadly biased against men at the moment (school, college, child custody, excessive claims of rape stats when the FBI has shown a 58% or greater drop from 1995-2010, and if the current rates continued then the 1/4 claim will drop down to more like a 1/10, which assaults and rapes still need to be eradicated) and so I tend to use some of my comments more to counteract that, in order to restore more fairness.

    An area where I will fully admit to pointing out the other side of the story is when complaints are made against men without examining what the women might have been doing as well. An example of this would be the J. R. Smith story (NBA’s 6th man of the year) where the girl (18, so legal in any state) sought him out. Yes, he is a big player with a notorious past. I’m not sure if he counts as a cad since he seems quite honest about his intentions, though perhaps he has been a cad in the past. Anyway, when he asked if she was trying to get the pipe, she responded that she was! lol So to just say that he was preying on teens didn’t seem like the whole story. She, an adult (barely), was also fully participating.

    As to INTJ, the cases where I “came to his defense” were where I thought he was right, and my analysis into those areas proved me far more right than those he was arguing with, on those specific issues. But I will admit that he did disappear for a time instead of answering certain questions and was snarky at times. However, Megaman was incredibly and excessively snarky to him as well.

  • HanSolo

    @Cee

    Your comment made me think of “Don’t You Want Me Baby,” of the man who turned the cocktail waitress into someone new and five years later had the world at her feet. lol

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8lzXkGr2Vs

  • That’s the thing about HUS. It tends to bring out the worst in some men.

    The threads have a way of chipping away at a man’s view of things. He then either asserts his points more emphatically, and sets himself up for ridicule, or he becomes shrill and gets himself roasted.

    All men are emotional about their ideas.

    And all women know that emotion trumps ideas.

    It’s that age-old stand-off between a premise and a poem … both powerful … both with their flaws … both unyielding …

    So what to do then ?

    I wish I knew.

    • The threads have a way of chipping away at a man’s view of things. He then either asserts his points more emphatically, and sets himself up for ridicule, or he becomes shrill and gets himself roasted.

      Ok, this sounds like it could be useful to understand. How can we women cut some slack on that? I will say that when it comes to a man’s view of things reflecting the Dark bloggers, I’m not interested in entertaining that. In that case, we need some new men, and that’s been happening here too.

  • Man

    She currently has a loft in Soho and very generous monthly allowance from an older man who she sees whenever he comes to NY on business. She has recently lured in someone very high up at Google – he has proposed with a “no prenup” promise. She’s thinking she just may go for it.

    🙂 Exactly! I think that a lot of young girls are even engaging into prostitution as a way to achieve this. I find it really odd, but a lot of Millennial young women prefer prostitution to marriage and traditional roles, but they keep in mind that desire to “trade” their way up and make the transition (and sometimes they even succeed). Another amazing feminist achievement.

    When in a relationship, women of all ages are:
    More likely to want girls’ nights than men want boys’ nights (35 percent vs. 23 percent of men)

    All of my previous three girlfriends expressed this desire. Usually I don’t agree, especially if on bars. But sometimes I think it’s just better to pretend we don’t mind and see what happens. Apart from being a shit test and a message that she wants freedom to trade her way up, it just attests to the conflict or shame women feel about commitment (they want commitment but they do not want to commit and have the freedom to trade their way up). Meanwhile Susan puts all this effort to convince women to trade sex for commitment. “Millennial” women…. Duh.

    That said, I am also tired of this red-pill talk for blue-pill guys.

    Fortunately there are always a couple or three outliers to make me believe there is hope. I know three by the way.

    Sometimes fairness means telling it like it is, not protecting someone from the consequences of their own behavior.

    • @Man

      I agree with you – I think there’s a lot of female behavior that amounts to prostitution. Maybe this has always been the case, but I see no feelings of shame from women doing this. College women sign up for Sugardaddy online dating, which can pay up to 3K per date, or so I’ve heard.

  • Anacaona

    Susan, like I said, in this case the man was a journalist and schlumpy to boot. No money. Very smart and witty, though.
    I’m going to bring Big Women porn as proof that men find overweight women sexually attractive and the ones that deny it are just trying to trump an agenda. :p
    We notice May/December pairings because they are the exception not the rule. Just because you can find an example here and there it doesn’t mean is the norm. Or even that this women are actually attracted to the guy per se, instead of their wallets or they are trying to fill a vacuum left from an absent father or a high hypergamous impulse, YMMV.

  • J

    I agree that we have no good word for boyfriend past the age of about 21.

    That’s because 35 yo boyfriends .is a function of extended adolescence.

  • J

    @Wave

    Very nice insights on aging.

    @Marellus

    I like the Rand quote. My father used to say, “Tell me who you associate with and I’ll tell you who you are.” Al the more so for choice of lover.

    He was being very flattering and I didn’t want to be rude, so when he asked me for my number, I awkwardly gave it. My friend was like, “why did you do that??” and I was just like, “I don’t know!!” He texted me right after I left the bar, but I didn’t respond.

    #1 cause of flaking. Girl is too polite, or too young, or too bafffled by the guy’s BS to reject outright.

  • J

    And J., are you capable of commenting on anything without getting on your superior morality high horse? Why do you think other people benefit from your incessant evaluations? Mystifies me. Also, my daughter works at Coach, so I’m REALLY REALLY OFFENDED AND OUTRAGED by your comments. (See how boring incessant manufactured moralizing gets?) The stuff I buy from Coach is better made than my clothing from Paul Stuart

    I think you’re misunderstanding my comment. Coach makes a good product. Fifteen to twenty years ago, before they got really popular and starting printing Cs all over their stuff, they made a classically styled and durable product that looked good for years. One so good that you could make a bag last for years if you took good care of it and sent it off every once in a while to be reconditioned. Like a Volvo driver, a longtime Coach bag owner is someone who values quality, makes investments that pay off, and takes good care of valuable things. What’s the problem?

  • Tomato

    “excessive claims of rape stats when the FBI has shown a 58% or greater drop from 1995-2010, and if the current rates continued then the 1/4 claim will drop down to more like a 1/10”

    1/10 is still horrific odds. One out of ten random women you meet has been or will be raped. Awful.

  • J

    J has been vocal on that point prior.

    Lok, you’re half right. I don’t believe that anyone–male or female– should be shamed for a few youthful mistakes. As for consequences, well, life has a way of biting people in the butt.

  • J

    just be your best self and let the chips fall where they may.

    Yep.

  • HanSolo

    @Tomato

    It’s not 1/10 raped. It would include attempted rapes, completed rapes and other sexual assault.

    But I’m not sure what your point is. I said we need to work on getting rid of all rape. I never said 1/10 was wonderful. But it is an obvious improvement over 1/4.

    So what’s the point of continuing to say the higher number (1/4, based on a time when things were worse 20 years ago) when things have clearly improved?

    Anyway, here are the numbers:

    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594

    From 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000.

    Completed rape (not attempted or threatened) fell about 68%, from about 3.7 to 1.2 per 1,000.

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “Basically, the terms of the sex for commitment exchange must be clearly communicated. I think Gin Martini’s wife, though she was quite matter of fact, clearly signaled that she was prepared to continue if they were exclusive.”

    Sorry, we don’t think of it as a sex-for-commitment exchange. Honestly, I would have left if she was playing the field, too. It was a confirming of mutual values. Commitment for commitment exchange.

    sue: “The sphere’s answer is marry at 18.”

    Roissy and Danny suggest getting married!? Stop the presses! Maybe you’re talking about One Particular blogger rather than the overarching opinion of a lot of them?

    Like WV said, one Manboobz is enoughh, plus, we have PJ as their operative trying to convert HUS into a satellite.

    —–

    As for “old farts on death’s door at 40 are revolting to all young women”, well, Danny is picture-and-name proof it happens, so it’s no delusion. Is he as attractive as he was when 25? Doubtful, but who cares about that, if women still like him now? He must cry himself to sleep in bed with those lovely women.

    • @Gin Martini

      Sorry, we don’t think of it as a sex-for-commitment exchange.

      No offense meant, that’s just the nature of mating. A large part of why the SMP is so screwed up is that women are offering sex without commitment, right?

      Roissy and Danny suggest getting married!? Stop the presses! Maybe you’re talking about One Particular blogger rather than the overarching opinion of a lot of them?

      Touche. I should have said Christian sphere blogs, I guess. The sphere is actually a bizarre mix of incompatible views.

      As for “old farts on death’s door at 40 are revolting to all young women”,

      Did I miss something? Who said that?

      As for Danny, I love him. He looks about 17.

  • Man

    @ADBG: I was reading some of your comments now, and I usually don’t because of this awful nickname you’ve chosen. But I see that some yours and other guys points are not being taken. So I will translate here what you’re trying to tell women about:

    Whenever you think of the DTR talk, remember that the first question a guy would like to ask you is: are you virgin? Some will ask it outright, others will not out of feminist brainwashing induced shame, but this is the most important question he has in mind even if he doesn’t express this outright when you’re thinking about holding sex. Most women don’t understand this (or least they pretend that they don’t) and end up conveying the message that they are just playing hard-to-get to him, when she should convey the message that she’s hard to get to all men out there, except him. You have to able to address this, when doing the DTR talk.

    So I think that what ADBG is trying to convey is valid, even though he’s been unable to do so in a straightforward way. I just wanted to make this last red-pill regurgitation. With the word, Dr. Susan: What Men Need From Women (No, Not Sex). Note: If I were a woman, I think I wouldn’t know either how to handle all of this in this post-feminazism world. 🙂

  • HanSolo

    I know why radfems trumpet high stats, and exaggerate things on top of that, like one who took the 1/4 lifetime rate (but a large minority of those were not raped but assaulted) and said that 1/4 would be raped during college. They want to use every bit of rhetoric, fair or not, to club men and gain more power.

    But for moderate, fair-minded people, I don’t see the need. Better to base things on as best a picture as possible and then work from there to improve things.

  • Man

    Maybe this has always been the case, but I see no feelings of shame from women doing this.

    In fact, prostitution is kind of idealized nowadays by a lot of young women, unlike marriage. Others (most probably) are lost the Life Splitting Strategy. And some succeed in finding love, or achieving a balanced life.

  • J

    Lok: That because the brain of an 18yo is not identical to that of a 30yo it is somehow less suited for the task at hand even though those tasks are different.

    SW: The brain of an 18 year-old is less capable of sound judgment, so any task requiring judgment will be performed better by a 30yo.

    J: Depends on the task. If you believe Helen Fischer, the task is to make a baby and hold on to its father until the baby walks efficiently. A lot of 18 yos can do that. If you want people to be able to stay together long enough for the grandchildren to visit, you need to start with reasonably mature individuals.

    I had an interesting thought the other day regarding age at first marriage. That dip in age that began after WW II and peaked in the early 60s? Aren’t those the people who led the pack when the divorce rate began increasing in the 70s?

  • J

    Here are some ideas I have for Deti Bingo:

    You left out all the names he makes up for the male competition-Alpha Mc Fuckbuddy, etc.

  • Plain Jain

    “A large part of why the SMP is so screwed up is that women are offering sex without commitment, right?”

    Its more like women are offering commitment without commitment.

    If a woman has sex with a man and is disappointed that he will not commit to her, its because she was actually offering sex + commitment herself when she should have only been engaging in an equal exchange – sex in, sex out.

    Exclusive relationships happen when both partners offer commitment to one another.

    Sex is just sex and there should be no assumption of commitment with it unless commitment is exclusively offered. That’s when “the talk” happens. Either both offer commitment or not. If the do, an exclusive relationship is on. If not, have fun just having sex with no strings attached or move on.

    Its really NOT “complicated”, Facebook.

  • mr. wavevector

    The threads have a way of chipping away at a man’s view of things.

    My perception is that in the time I’ve been participating the male opinions have been over-represented. I come here because I want to discuss matters related to gender and mating with women as well as men at a site that’s neither feminist nor MRA. If I just wanted to talk to a bunch of guys there’s a lot of other places I could do that.

    Heck, just the other day the ladies were so quiet I ended up in a conversation with Richard Aubrey about close air support aircraft. Which was awesome, but way way way OT!

  • J

    Women hate Betas.

    Add a few more hates to that and you’ve got Whiskey.

  • J

    As for “old farts on death’s door at 40 are revolting to all young women”, well, Danny is picture-and-name proof it happens, so it’s no delusion. Is he as attractive as he was when 25?

    Doesn’t Danny, God love him, date single mothers and strippers?

  • Plain Jain

    “When in a relationship, women of all ages are:
    More likely to want girls’ nights than men want boys’ nights (35 percent vs. 23 percent of men)”

    – – They may have more friends than men or just be more social in general.

    Jackie May 8, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    PJ, re: single parents dating, what about widows and widowers?

    It’s interesting in that my father agrees with you! My mom was the love of his life and I believe he thinks any other relationship would be a pale imitation in comparison. He has never gotten over her. And I don’t think he ever shall.

    But if he –somehow– found love and companionship again, I would be thrilled.

    Judging by your comments, he should be waiting for the grim spectre of Death and its scythe to help him shuck off this mortal coil.

    But, I think life is for the living. And if love knocks at your door, you should joyfully welcome it. Peace–
    ___________________________

    Jackie, you misunderstand me, due to cultural and life experience difference.

    I nowhere suggested one stop living life or somehow become unjoyful. Quite the opposite in fact. In my culture as one ages one increases their endeavors are liberation (from samsara) and enlightenment. This of course increases their inner peace and joy which radiates outward and spreads to all who are fortunate enough to come within their sphere.

    As far as widows and widowers, they would also be freed now to focus on liberation and enlightenment, which was traditionally expected of them in my culture.

    However if they are widowed or widowered very young in life, I can cut them slack for feeling like they want a partner again.

  • J is right about those coach bags as criteria but there is Vintage now and it is sometimes as expensive. I myself prefer the vintage Dooney and Bourke, so sturdy and who can hate All Weather Leather?

    I suspect that “Man” guy is a big time troll!

  • J

    The threads have a way of chipping away at a man’s view of things. He then either asserts his points more emphatically, and sets himself up for ridicule, or he becomes shrill and gets himself roasted.

    Thanks for saying this. It makes me want to go a bit easier when the guys get shrill. OTOH, if a man finds that his view of things is being chipped away, perhaps that means he’s seeing some new and painful truths. Sometimes, it’s good to see another’s perspective.

  • Its more like women are offering commitment without commitment.

    If a woman has sex with a man and is disappointed that he will not commit to her, its because she was actually offering sex + commitment herself when she should have only been engaging in an equal exchange – sex in, sex out.

    Exclusive relationships happen when both partners offer commitment to one another.

    Sex is just sex and there should be no assumption of commitment with it unless commitment is exclusively offered. That’s when “the talk” happens. Either both offer commitment or not. If the do, an exclusive relationship is on. If not, have fun just having sex with no strings attached or move on.

    I actually agree with PJ on this one.

  • Plain Jain

    “Wrong. The vast majority of both single men and women select serial monogamy as a precursor to marriage. It’s called dating.”

    Exactly. The only way to avoid it is arranged marriage or marry the first person you ever date. I’m sure all commentors here, me being the only exception due to cultural upbringing, would be vehemently opposed to both.

    Can’t have your cake and eat it too, folks.

  • J

    J is right about those coach bags as criteria

    Every once in a while, I’ll go to an estate sale in my neoighborhood as the original folks who had these homes built in the 50s and 60s are now retiring, going into the nursing home or dying. I see vintage Coach bags in classic styles and basic colors that I’d gladly wear today. I probably would not want to wear this year’s Coach lime green and orange C print bag next year.

    I also would prefer an old gray Volvo wagon to a new lime green and orange V print car if the Volvo folks ever deign to make one. The only initial I wear is J. Everyone else shoould pay me to wear their initial, not vice-versa.

  • BroHamlet

    “Its more like women are offering commitment without commitment…”

    Damn. PJ is on the money here. In practice it seems It’s more acceptable for girls to say they’re in a relationship, even if that relationship is only a few months old (and the one before it only lasted 5-6 months), than to say they just “date”. The title is very important. This may not apply in college (where social circles overlap a lot) but it definitely describes the dating status quo when you get out. It might be a good idea to clarify exactly what is meant by commitment sometimes.

  • However, Megaman was incredibly and excessively snarky to him as well.

    Yes, I regret overdoing it, but it didn’t happen for no reason. From my POV, I just provided him the rope with which he hanged himself. And nobody forced him to. Beyond that, I won’t speak ill of the dead.

  • J

    Dalrock has used HUSsie sluts as a prime example of women pursuing a serial monogamy strategy

    LOL. I believe he calls it “women’s sacred path to matrimony.”

  • Sassy6519

    The only way that I would even consider dating a much older man would be if I were over 40 and desperate. There really is no incentive for me to date a much older man at my age. Not even money could sway me at this point. As much as I love money, there isn’t enough in the world to make me jump at the chance of sucking on old dick.

    The only exceptions would be hot celebrity men in their 40s or 50s. Rob Lowe, Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, and Robert Downey Jr could all get it willingly.

  • Man

    I suspect that “Man” guy is a big time troll!

    And I suspect you’re a teenager, just like PJ. I am not a troll. Just handling some red-pill for you too. If you cannot take it, regurgitate it. At least listen to Susan who’s a woman:
    Why Playing Hard to Get is a Losing Strategy
    Witnessing the Painful Fallout of Female Promiscuity

    Good luck!

  • Plain Jain

    “It might be a good idea to clarify exactly what is meant by commitment sometimes.”

    – This is why “the talk” is often needed.

    “As much as I love money, there isn’t enough in the world to make me jump at the chance of sucking on old dick. ”

    – Ouch! And I agree.

    “Dullcock has used HUSsie sluts as a prime example of women pursuing a serial monogamy strategy”

    “LOL. I believe he calls it “women’s sacred path to matrimony.”

    – I wouldn’t be surprised if Dullcock wifed up the first and only woman he ever dated. Nothing at all wrong with that, but he is very, very sheltered. I mentioned here several times how he labled a young man at his church a “bad boy alpha” for wanting to join a religious commune.

    Speaking of Dullcock, whatever happened to our regular commentor here 1ntj?

    “I actually agree with PJ on this one.”
    “Damn. PJ is on the money here. ”

    – Finally getting the respect I deserve!

    • Speaking of Dullcock, whatever happened to our regular commentor here 1ntj?

      Last I heard, he was hanging out with angry middle aged evangelical Christians. Strange bedfellows.

      Interesting, he and Cooper showed up here at virtually the same time, and had very similar views and questions for a while. But what different outcomes! A fascinating study in personality traits.

  • Sassy6519

    @ szopen

    So, if I ever would be in a situation to date a girl, I should take my laptop with me to the disco and coding while dancing. Shouldn’t be that hard if I would practice few months before that.

    No. Your best bet would be to avoid dancing in clubs altogether. If you know that dancing is not your strong suit, don’t put yourself in situations where one’s ineptitude is put on display. If you do so, you will either be negatively judged or outshone by better male dancers.

    I don’t see men who suck at playing the piano jumping at the opportunity to play piano in front of others, especially women. I don’t see men who suck at sports itching to stumble around on a field somewhere. Men, and women, should learn what their strengths and limitations are and play those particular aspects up.

    I’ve just seen way too many men who get on the dance floor and end up looking like buffoons. I am at least nice enough to not openly mock them to their faces, but I have witnessed countless women bad mouthing, creep shaming, and avoiding such men right on the dance floor. There was actually one guy on the dance floor the night I recently went out who looked like he was having a spastic fit when he danced. None of the women went anywhere near him. He kept trying to dance with the girls, but he was rejected time after time after time. He danced by himself the majority of the night. I did see him dance with one girl for about 2 minutes, but she ended up walking away and leaving him on the dance floor by himself.

    I just don’t see the point in any guys here at HUS experiencing something similar, hence why I’m being vocal about this. Not every guy is a great dancer. One can either attempt to improve in dancing ability, avoid dancing in public, or dance anyway and potentially be viewed negatively.

  • J

    The girl/woman sitting next to me could not have been over 30, and probably was not much past 25 but her “date” on the other side of the table had to be at least 50. BTW, he was not a 1%er but a journalist.

    It’s not always money, but influence and opportunity. The question one needs to ask is if the young woman would have been at this exclusive party had he not taken her. I imagine these things are nice places to network.

  • Plain Jain

    “I agree that we have no good word for boyfriend past the age of about 21.”

    We do have a word for it – “partner”.

    • We do have a word for it – “partner”.

      If someone uses that word, I automatically assume they’re gay. A friend of mine has worked with a woman for years who has mentioned her partner Sandy from time to time. Recently Sandy, a male, came by. My friend was astounded to learn her coworker was straight.

  • Plain Jain

    “Here are some ideas I have for Deeti Bingo:”

    “You left out all the names he makes up for the male competition-Alpha Mc Fuckbuddy, etc.”

    Alpha McFuckbuddy?!?!?! LOL!

    Both he and Dullcock are extremely sheltered and out of the loop elderly men.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    How do you “provide evidence of character”? The picture is of somebody with a pile of certificates of character, with copier marks on them.
    I think you would need to act so as to demonstrate character; in such a fashion that the woman in question can see it. Problem is…three dates? Enough time for character-demonstrating incidents to occur?

    • I think you would need to act so as to demonstrate character; in such a fashion that the woman in question can see it. Problem is…three dates? Enough time for character-demonstrating incidents to occur?

      To clarify, I think both parties should provide evidence of character. Character includes a lot of things that may be learned on a handful of dates: how the person treats salespeople and strangers, how they feel about work, what they want in life, what their family and friend relationships are like, what their relationship history is (in broad terms). Are they a good listener? Do they have a good sense of humor? The ability to go with the flow? Are they diplomatic and tactful, or quick to criticize and judge? etc.

  • Plain Jain

    “If someone uses that word, I automatically assume they’re gay.”

    Really? Its quite commonly used in my circles. It covers any and everything from boyfriend to live in co-habitant to husband. In California they often use it in place of husband.

    “Last I heard, he was hanging out with angry middle aged evangelical Christians. Strange bedfellows.

    Interesting, he and Cooper showed up here at virtually the same time, and had very similar views and questions for a while. But what different outcomes! A fascinating study in personality traits.”

    I actually didn’t see what went down with him as I scrolled passed many back and forth comments between him and others. Can you summarize for me?

  • Plain Jain

    Gin Martini, “Like WV said, one Manboobz is enoughh, plus, we have PJ as their operative trying to convert HUS into a satellite.”

    Get real. Manboobz is way too pro-Islam for my tastes.

  • Plain Jain

    lavazza1891
    “Anyway, if a woman needs to have “The Talk”, she is hooking up outside of her league.”

    Don’t know where you’re from but here in the States monogamy is never assumed unless one is married, or at least engaged to be married.

    “Couples” who date each other are often dating other people too, until they are not. When they are not is after they’ve had “the talk” and both have agreed to exclusively see only each other.

  • Plain Jain

    “Whenever you think of the DTR talk, remember that the first question a guy would like to ask you is: are you virgin? Some will ask it outright, others will not out of feminist brainwashing induced shame, but this is the most important question he has in mind even if he doesn’t express this outright when you’re thinking about holding sex. Most women don’t understand this (or least they pretend that they don’t) and end up conveying the message that they are just playing hard-to-get to him, when she should convey the message that she’s hard to get to all men out there, except him. You have to able to address this, when doing the DTR talk. ”

    30 year old men are not thinking, “are you a virgin”. They know she’s not. Most likely he isn’t either.

  • Emily

    >> “Interesting, he and Cooper showed up here at virtually the same time, and had very similar views and questions for a while. But what different outcomes! A fascinating study in personality traits.”

    I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Cooper got a gf etc. whereas (as far as I know), his love life has been pretty stagnant. I imagine that must have been frustrating.

    He could be difficult at times, but I still think he’s a good guy and I hope he eventually comes back to us.

    • I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Cooper got a gf etc. whereas (as far as I know), his love life has been pretty stagnant.

      I believe the difference in outcomes is directly attributable to the difference in attitudes, especially towards women.

  • Why must cats always insist on sleeping between one’s legs ? I can’t sleep well now. And I’m writing a bloody exam tomorrow !!!

  • Plain Jain

    Cee May 9, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    ” In between relationships I have seen a guy significantly older than me – I’m 24 and he’s 47 – and in a place like New York City, it’s much more common than you’d imagine. Sure at times we’d get some funny, even judgmental, looks , however that could have also been compounded by the fact that he was Eastern European and I’m West African.

    Either way, he served as a confidant and provider of sorts. He gifted me with rather expensive items, helped me access some places and things I’d otherwise never get an opportunity to and provided me with needed distraction as I would see much more practical and age appropriate prospects. I suppose I provided him with sufficient enough arm and eye candy as there was no sex involved – believe it or not.”

    — Cee, he didn’t want sex from you? WOW! Now that is the sort of May-December relationship I can actually endorse

    Continueing on…

    “I loved his mind , but didn’t particularly care for him physically”

    — Of course not. Understandable.

    …..”he sought to change that in the beginning, but eventually just accepted the friendship for what it was, I think he just enjoyed the company. ”

    — Glad you stood firm. It shows that older men are willing to conform to the relationship boundaries set by the younger, more attractive partner.

    ….”Ultimately, I think I gained more than he did from the companionship.”

    — No you did not. Don’t feel bad. He was in it for his pay off which you yourself described as,
    “I suppose I provided him with sufficient enough arm and eye candy”.

    That ^^^ was his pay off, dear.

    …..” This seems to be the general dynamic I’ve observed in these sort of relationships. The young women kind of use older men as a a sort of come-up while they date around looking for men who they can see themselves settling down with, sure some fall in love in the meantime, but it’s rare.”

    — Using my bazooka! Its not “using”. Both agreed to be in a mutually beneficial relationship. If he didn’t get something out of it, he would have left.

    Platonic May-December FTW!

    (Unless its a cougar scenario, of course. Totally changes the dynamic 😉 …)

  • Plain Jain

    Well, I didn’t see that 1ntj had a particularly worse attitude toward women than the other male commenters. He never used foul language or anything.
    What was the final beef?

  • Sassy6519

    He just seemed really bitter because he was not getting laid. That’s how he came across to me anyways.

    *Shrugs*

  • SayWhaat

    @ ADBG:

    Thanks for taking the time to address my questions! 🙂

    Those guys never should have been very invested in those relationships in the first place…but they also didn’t have a lot of options, so, meh.
    Anyways, hope that answers your question.

    It did, thanks for the clarification.

    We’re just extremely sensitive to “changing lanes” and price discrimination and the like, so we will do our best to make sure that doesn’t happen to us.

    Like I said, I understand the sentiment behind this. But as no one has yet to find convincing evidence for this meme, I believe that it is an overblown fear.

    Regarding your friend, it sounds like he has some self-respect issues (at least from the way you’ve described him). If that’s the case, I think you’re approaching him the wrong way. Getting him to “pound the pavement” and emphasizing its urgency won’t get him anywhere. He needs to learn how to properly value himself first.

  • Plain Jain

    “He just seemed really bitter because he was not getting laid.”

    That’s very, very common. No reason to leave HUS. In fact, its a reason some guys come here and stick around in the first place.

    There seemed to have been a fall out and he left in a huff.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Zach:

    I’m always a little perplexed by the attitude towards meeting women/men at bars. Since college, I’d say probably 40% of my friends’ relationships have come out of meeting someone at a bar. It’s called a “meat/meet market” for a reason.

    Precisely. I don’t view possible relationship prospects as “meat” to be hunted. For sure, bars are the #1 best way to meet members of the opposite sex. But they’re a piss-poor venue for meeting someone you could have a lasting relationship with. Susan even posted stats to that effect, couples who met in bars had a much higher likelihood of divorce. If that’s not what I’m looking for, why bother with the swamp?

  • Plain Jain

    Mr. Wavevector,
    “Raising kids alone is damn hard work. Having a high paying job doesn’t make it all that much easier, because jobs that pay a lot of money are often highly demanding of time and energy. ”

    I agree!

    “The vast majority of women who want kids want a partner to raise them with. ”

    Here’s the thing. I’m not convinced the vast majority of American women want or raise them with the same man for their whole life. At one point they might have thought they did, like when they first got married, but that changes later.

    I can’t tell you how many single moms I know who are over worked struggling financially but would never consider going back to their ex husbands or marrying the fathers of their children to begin with, even though those men are 1. not abusive and 2. gainfully employed

    These women much, much, much prefer their single motherhood to that.

    And no, these women are not getting all kinds of sex sideways from the cock carousel either. Their lives are comprised of work and home or work, school, home and very little social life.

  • SayWhaat

    Well, in my 20s I had a crush on David Stockman. In my 30s I had a crush on Paul Gigot. For some of us, smart really does bring the tingles.

    I have a crush on Brian Cox. 😛

    (In my defense, he doesn’t look as old as he is.)

    • @SW

      I had to look up Brian Cox – he looks sort of like a smart Steven Tyler. 😛

      He’s not so old – 35 this year!

  • SayWhaat

    No worries, I never thought that! I know that you are most interested in being fair, but I do think you have some bias towards men, even when badly behaved. INTJ is another example of this. Sometimes fairness means telling it like it is, not protecting someone from the consequences of their own behavior.

    Yep. Though I wouldn’t call Han Solo a white knight. More like Douche Defender. 😛

  • SayWhaat

    Thanks for saying this. It makes me want to go a bit easier when the guys get shrill. OTOH, if a man finds that his view of things is being chipped away, perhaps that means he’s seeing some new and painful truths. Sometimes, it’s good to see another’s perspective.

    +1. And another +1.

  • Sassy6519

    @ PJ

    What I mean is that he seemed to channel his sexual frustration in very strange ways. I’m not saying that other men on this blog have not expressed/experienced sexual frustration. What I’m saying is that INTJ seemed to blame his state of sexual solitude on everything but himself.

    I remember one time either Jason or Zach told him to stop having pathetic pity parties for himself because he went on a tangent about being viewed as unattractive to white women. He blamed his ethnicity as the reason why he was not having any success with American White women, and either Zach or Jason attempted to nip that thinking in the bud. In essence, he never seemed to take personal responsibility for his own failures. He preferred blaming everything else but himself, and that is one reason why Cooper had success in areas that he did not. Cooper at least admitted to conducting himself in some ways that were self-sabotaging. Getting INTJ to admit something like that was impossible.

    He has yet to even admit that he was wrong during several back and forth debates with Susan and Megaman, for crying out loud. As long as he refuses to check his attitude, he will remain stuck.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’m reading a fascinating book – Paleofantasy – that describes in detail what we know about evolution, and what we don’t know. Various popular memes (like the Paleo diet) are examined and debunked based on what we know. Most of evo psych is based on what it would make sense to assume, but it’s no more reliable than constructing a possible explanation for how a murderer could have committed the crime and gotten back to his house in under an hour. I’m finding it rather distressing, frankly, given the emphasis I’ve placed on evo psych theories.”

    I had a student ask me a question a couple months ago essentially along the lines of ‘Why isn’t the cell doing this? It seems so much more efficient?’

    Two part answer,
    1. It may actually be doing that and we haven’t yet identified it or;
    2. Regardless of how much more efficient you think it is it is not otherwise the cell would be doing it.

    Note: Answer is pretty clear cut and it is the second option.

    Regardless of how much we may or may not want to believe in something the only sure thing is that we act the way we do at certain times and in certain situations because it was more favourable to our ancestors reproducing.

    Attempting to explain why it might be this way is always going to be somewhat incorrect in some way but it does occur.

    An 18yo who makes some mistakes is more fit than one who does not. Why is less clear cut but it is true.

    PS. Who si the author? Google is failing me.

    • @Lokland

      Regardless of how much we may or may not want to believe in something the only sure thing is that we act the way we do at certain times and in certain situations because it was more favourable to our ancestors reproducing.

      One of the things I’ve learned is that evolution includes a lot of tradeoffs. We are not at some optimal or perfect place. For example, “hiccups, hernias, and hemorrhoids are all caused by an imperfect transfer of anatomical technology from our fish ancestors.” The author points out that most likely, altering one’s esophagus to prevent hiccups would entail unacceptable changes in another part of the anatomy. “If something works well enough for the moment, at least long enough for its bearer to reproduce, that’s enough for evolution…Our bodies reflect a continuously jury-rigged system with echoes of fish, of fruit fly, of lizard and mouse. Wanting to be more like our ancestors just means wanting more of the same set of compromises.”

      Author is Marlene Zuk.

  • SayWhaat

    I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Cooper got a gf etc. whereas (as far as I know), his love life has been pretty stagnant. I imagine that must have been frustrating.

    He could be difficult at times, but I still think he’s a good guy and I hope he eventually comes back to us.

    Well, we were giving both of them the same advice, so that’s really not an excuse. INTJ had a very deeply-ingrained sexist attitude, whereas Cooper always seemed like he genuinely liked women. The difference was huge.

  • SayWhaat

    Oops, cross-posted with Susan. 🙂

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    I was going to let the character issue go. IMO, three dates is enough time to see if the guy can pass a Girl Scout cookie sale without stealing the proceeds.
    Wait staff….probably have an opportunity, but the average way to treat wait staff is pretty vanilla. And chatting them up can look contrived.
    Work, want in life, friends, etc. Some guys don’t have a clue. Me, I’d like to explore the galaxy. The other stuff could be the subject of great big fibs because we all know what the desired picture is. “I spend six hours a week reading to lepers.”
    I suppose different women would view diplomatic and tactful differently. Some as a virtue, others as demonstrating squishiness.
    IOW, most of this is what the individual says about himself or herself.
    In order for a woman to see a guy exhibiting character, she has to see him in real-life situations where character must surface, one way or another, and that means time for enough situations to come along.
    After all, we live in a society ordered precisely so that contingencies don’t come along all that often. The restuarant is open when it’s supposed to be, ditto the gas station. The Huns are back in Central Asia, not bothering anybody at the park, people generally drive on the right side of the road and observe traffic signage, wait staff are competent and friendly, the ticket office has the will-call tix. His acquaintances, and hers, if encountered, are reasonably civilized or at least civil.
    I dunno. If three dates were enough–or a “handful”–we wouldn’t have quite so many mistakes in choosing.
    It doesn’t need to be dates. It’s time acquainted.
    I knew a guy in college who was hothothot, with a southern bit of awshucks, and had the women chasing him. You’d think he had character, to see him operate. Lying cheater. But he was good at the beginning.
    Time will tell, as they say, and more time tells more. I made that last part up.

    • @Richard

      As always, we must conclude that it is better for people to wait before having sex. Sex is a big deal! It’s a risky endeavor! You can’t take the measure of a man or woman in three dates. The Pill and abortion mean that women can avoid having children if they don’t want them, but those are not the only risks associated with sex. That’s what we’re learning 50 years after the Sex Rev.

  • SayWhaat

    Yeah, and what Sassy said too.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That’s nonsense.”

    Not entirely. I spend more of my time arguing in defence of manosphere memes than I do my own because the denial of those essentially asking guys to shut up and stop complaining.

    As someone who neither associates with, reads or consider himself apart of the manosphere I have been lumped in and seem to be stuck on with super glue.

    “However, I will always reserve the right to call out a true creep when one shows up here.”

    Even months (a year) after the fact?

    @Zach

    “Since college, I’d say probably 40% of my friends’ relationships have come out of meeting someone at a bar. It’s called a “meat/meet market” for a reason. People go to these places to (among other things) meet people of the opposite sex. ”

    I had absolutely 0 success at bars. I have maybe three memorable moments over the 1.5 year period I spent going to clubs.
    Meat market tends to mean hypergamy aiming for top physical value.

    My success came from a large group of friends whom introduced me to lots of friends of friends (and friends of those friends).

    I could never play the same game as you with the same amount of efficiency so I learned what I was capable of and built my own game.

    ———–
    Since getting married I’ve cut out 99.9% of all my social contacts and only maintained a few close personal ones (maybe 20-30 total), also kept all connections that may become profitable but thats just a duh.

    • @Lokland

      Even months (a year) after the fact?

      I’ve already said I was peevish. I got a little bitchy. It happens. Honestly, I was just being snarky with a commenter who cited a similar experience. I didn’t expect any retorts – I was surprised when Han popped up.

      I’m not going to apologize because I didn’t harm anyone innocent.

  • Man

    @PJ:

    The only way to avoid it is arranged marriage or marry the first person you ever date. I’m sure all commentors here, me being the only exception due to cultural upbringing, would be vehemently opposed to both.

    Just curious: are for arranged marriage or marrying the first person you ever date?

    30 year old men are not thinking, “are you a virgin”. They know she’s not. Most likely he isn’t either.

    Of course. It was mostly rhetorical point, trying to convey male instincts. What I meant is that there are women who look like they don’t understand this: they’ve been playing the “easy to get” to some or a lot guys; then she finds “Mr.Right” and proposes sex only after commitment or marriage. For a lot of women this sounds pretty logical. But for men, unless he is pretty naive, this will be a red flag that he’s being played with the hard to get strategy which means that he is the greater fool (all the others before got it with less investment or effort). Women usually do not understand this, because they don’t understand the cost of sex for men (implicit or explicit) and male’s psyche/instincts and needs. And I would add: they do not even understand their own.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “I don’t believe that anyone–male or female– should be shamed for a few youthful mistakes.”

    Mistakes are one type, boyfriends are other type.
    Mistake = ulterior motive labelled as maturation.

    I’ll believe its a mistake when the type of men representing the mistake category are equally represented amongst all types.

    “As for consequences, well, life has a way of biting people in the butt.”

    Charma. Not a believer personally.

  • Lokland

    “He just seemed really bitter because he was not getting laid. That’s how he came across to me anyways.”

    Called it at 10am this morning.

    ———-

    As for Cooper vs. INTJ.
    I suspect it was the relentless persecution that caused him to leave.
    He was a prick and incapable of accepting new information which likely has caused his own failure but the descent into assholeness was probably more the continuous rain of personal insults.

    My 2 cents.

    • I suspect it was the relentless persecution that caused him to leave.
      He was a prick and incapable of accepting new information which likely has caused his own failure but the descent into assholeness was probably more the continuous rain of personal insults.

      FWIW, I worried that this was the case. I dealt with this behind the scenes, stopped the criticism, and began offering more positive feedback. He happily accepted this, but did not alter his bratty behavior. I’m not sure why, this always worked with my own kids!

      He’s far younger than his years.

  • SayWhaat

    He was a prick and incapable of accepting new information which likely has caused his own failure but the descent into assholeness was probably more the continuous rain of personal insults.

    Like Megaman said, he hanged himself.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ PJ,

    I can’t tell you how many single moms I know who are over worked struggling financially but would never consider going back to their ex husbands or marrying the fathers of their children to begin with, even though those men are 1. not abusive and 2. gainfully employed

    These women much, much, much prefer their single motherhood to that.

    What makes these men so unappealing that single motherhood is so preferable?

    And have they considered the effect of their choice on their children?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Called it at 10am this morning.

    I’m not afraid to call a spade a spade.

    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, yada yada yada, etc.

    The last thing on my mind is worrying about offending some guy who painted himself into his own corner. He acted like a “thirsty” man, so I called him a thirsty man.

    Maybe he’ll fare better in like-minded company, but only time will tell.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Like Megaman said, he hanged himself.”

    I disagree with Mega’s interpretation.
    It was more like providing the rope to a person known to have attempted suicide before.

    INTJs lack of sex is his own fault. His anger towards HUS is probably 99% Mega’s doing.

  • Bells

    This post is right up my alley!

    Been MIA lately: finals, end of intern, moving back home, etc

    Anyways, update on recent dating. it turns out that I didn’t even have to initiate a DTR talk with him. Instead, throughout the dating period, I’d casually mention the fact that I was not comfortable moving further sexually beyond making out. Additionally to counteract the physical escalation, I utilized ‘girl game’ aka being feminine. He was sick this past weekend, so for our date, I brought him food and we had a low-key time of talking, cuddling, and watching sci fi movies. By the end of the evening, he brought up the DTR and asked me to be in a relationship. Now I officially have a boyfriend! Partly thanks to HUS and the lovely advice from different commenters 😀

    • @Bells

      Your online name is perfect for this occasion! Bells are ringing! I am so happy for you. Don’t forget us, just because you got a bf 😛

  • Lokland

    @J

    “Depends on the task. If you believe Helen Fischer, the task is to make a baby and hold on to its father until the baby walks efficiently. A lot of 18 yos can do that. If you want people to be able to stay together long enough for the grandchildren to visit, you need to start with reasonably mature individuals.”

    Good point.
    I just think the two are more mutually exclusive than some people want to believe.

    A woman attempting (not necessarily succeeding) to become an 18yo single mom (via the mistakes she is entitled to) is better than actual single mom but significantly worse than one who did not attempt it.

    Note: Not equivocating sex with single mom but mistakes.

    —————–

    “It makes me want to go a bit easier when the guys get shrill. OTOH, if a man finds that his view of things is being chipped away, perhaps that means he’s seeing some new and painful truths. Sometimes, it’s good to see another’s perspective.”

    As a note, I tend to focus on the meaning behind the words and not the words themselves.

    Flowering up something (mistakes) does not alter what actually occurred but attempts to bias the way it is interpreted.

    So ‘mistake’ is equivalent to ‘alpha fucks–> beta bucks.’

    This occurs a lot. I am not X (manosphere meme) I am actually Y (HUS- we’re not outliers). When in fact Y is a flowery version of X.

    X tends to be extremist whereas Y is the milder realistic version but the drives behind them are identical.

    Relation to quoted bit: A lot of the mechanics behind manosphere memes are confirmed here but not to the extent than manosphere says they are.

  • Sassy6519

    Congrats Bells on the BF!!! 😀

  • Emily

    I once went through a phase where I read Jezebel religiously (*shudder*) and I suspect INTJ’s retreat to Roldock might be a similar sort of thing. I still think there’s hope for him. He wasn’t always as bitter.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Bells,

    Now I officially have a boyfriend!

    Congratulations!

  • Bells

    Thanks Sassy!

  • Lokland

    @Bells

    Congrats.

  • HanSolo

    Glad to hear that Bells. Good luck with things.

  • Bells

    Thanks guys 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    His anger towards HUS is probably 99% Mega’s doing.

    By that logic, every regular female commenter here should hate HUS with a fiery passion after enduring snide attacks, sexist remarks, and dismissive attitudes.

    And yet here we are.

  • SayWhaat

    OMG, congrats on the new boyfriend, Bells!!! YAY!

  • SayWhaat

    “As for consequences, well, life has a way of biting people in the butt.”

    Charma. Not a believer personally.

    Actually, the concept of karma is that all actions have consequences, not really a judgment on the “goodness” or “badness” of the action itself. In other words, “cause and effect”.

  • Plain Jain

    Susan, can you tell me exactly what words get caught in your spam filter. I always have to change certain names and now I just wrote a long comment using the word “indian” a lot and it won’t post.

  • Plain Jain

    Sassy, I wrote a comment in response to you but there are trigger words, and I don’t know which they are, that are not allowing it to post.

  • Plain Jain

    Lokland,
    “Charma. Not a believer personally.”

    – There’s nothing to believe in. Karma means “action”. Action takes place with or without us.

    Mr. Wavevector,
    “What makes these men so unappealing that single motherhood is so preferable?”

    – Its not the men per se. They just like their “freedom”.

    “And have they considered the effect of their choice on their children?”

    – In the USA?!

    Man,
    “Just curious: are for arranged marriage or marrying the first person you ever date?”

    – I’m for both under the right circumstances.

  • Anacaona

    . Who si the author? Google is failing me.
    Marlene Zuk
    Internet addict tip:
    When looking for book use the Amazon search with whatever small bit of info you have available: author’s name or last name, title of the book, theme of the study…9.5 times out of 10 you will find it.
    http://www.amazon.com/Paleofantasy-Evolution-Really-Tells-about/dp/0393081370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368147442&sr=8-1&keywords=paleofantasy

    By that logic, every regular female commenter here should hate HUS with a fiery passion after enduring snide attacks, sexist remarks, and dismissive attitudes.
    Lokland surely missed my baptism with fire about the “friend’s first” post. I almost never came back to HUS back then out of the incident. Good thing after the initial shock my logical side decided not to leave out of fear. I learned a great deal after that about gender relationships here, in my country and about myself. I hope I can pass that lessons to my kid.

  • Plain Jain

    Sassy,
    “I remember one time either Jason or Zach told him to stop having pathetic pity parties for himself because he went on a tangent about being viewed as unattractive to white women. He blamed his ethnicity as the reason why he was not having any success with American White women, and either Zach or Jason attempted to nip that thinking in the bud. In essence, he never seemed to take personal responsibility for his own failures. ”

    Wow. I wonder if he was/is the infamous IRT – Ind1en Race Troll – that has been doing the rounds of the PUA blogs and forums for years now driving everyone nuts. They went from banning him to basically creating threads for him and other Ind1en guys like him on their forums and blogs.

    Pharo*sh even hired 3 Ind1e bloggers to write for Return of Jokers to address his and other Deshi guys’ concerns (which are without limit).

    They basically blame their dateless state on white women being racist. Thing is, even other Deshi women don’t want these guys.

    Let’s face it. They ARE a lot of unattractive Ind1en guys out here. The problem is twofold;

    1. Many of them do not know how to look good (or act right) or even if they have an idea, they don’t put in any effort, and…
    2. Some just have bad genes. This is hard to swallow but there are some people out there with naturally unfortunate looks and some Deshi guys fall into that category.

    You never hear hot looking Deshi guys complaining because they are getting second looks and smiles from all types of women all the time. I know because I date these guys and I see it first hand.

    So IRT, 1ntj, and other Deshi guys like them just play the race card as an excuse.

  • Gin Martini

    J: “Doesn’t Danny, God love him, date single mothers and strippers?”

    He has, but not exclusively. Either way, that’s irrelevant.

    The assertion has been that young women don’t find men 15+ years older than themselves *attractive* ever, unless there is some sort of external “eww-overriding” factor like money or fame, and that anyone who claims otherwise is a liar somehow. Danny disproves this. No six pack, no hair, not rich, not tall, but personality (e.g., Game) out the wazoo.

    How does he find all those women if they’re so rare? They’re not rare.

    Sue: “I believe the difference in outcomes is directly attributable to the difference in attitudes, especially towards women.”

    Funny, but Cooper took my advice and succeeded, whereas everyone else said she’s crazy/he’d be abusing her. Sadly, INTJ hasn’t.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ PJ,

    They just like their “freedom”.

    Ah. “Freedom”. That’s what makes the USA so great, isn’t it? 😉

    And the fathers – how do they enjoy their “freedom”? Making more single mothers?

  • Plain Jain

    No, Mr. Wavevector, those men haven’t made more single moms. One of them keeps asking his ex-wife to return to him (I personally think she should). I think he tries to meet women online and occasionally dates, but nothing serious.

    The others, who knows? But none of them have made more baby mamas, thank god.

  • Plain Jain

    Susan, since you’re here now could you look in your spam filter and release one of the posts I made to reply to Sassy? I tried writing what I think were the trigger words in various ways but it still won’t post.

  • Gin Martini

    Bells, that is superb news and well played. Like the suggested DTR talk, simply stating your boundaries in terms of what you will and won’t do, is non-threatening. Throw in a little girl game to make him feel wanted, and you didn’t even have to take on the risk. Well done. Everyone wins!

  • Jackie

    @Bells

    YAY BELLS!!!!
    :mrgreen:

  • Jackie

    Re: INTJ

    Aww, he has permanently departed? I wasn’t aware of that.

    I don’t think INTJ ticked me off as much as others like MegaMan, because it was really really hard for me to think of him as anything other than a younger sibling.

    Lots of times the “baby of the family” has to leave the nest, you know? Speaking as a younger sibling! 🙂

  • Man

    I believe the difference in outcomes is directly attributable to the difference in attitudes, especially towards women.

    I have been doing some soul searching about this for quite a long time. I had a radical feminist aunt who took part in my upbringing and taught me to live by the feminist rules and creed. Obviously this had disastrous results for me in my relationships with women. Over time through emotional pain and self-knowledge, I overcame the feminist creed/brainwashing. But much of this self-knowledge I acquired through men’s rights movement. Actually I learned a lot from two of them who are really geniuses. Many of you would label them psychopaths. They are not. They just have a very deep understanding of men’s and women’s psyche, and even mysticism.

    But there’s a catch: just like many men I think I got trapped in the hatred. And sometimes I am afraid I have taken this too far away. Perhaps you all know the story of the Rise of Darth Vader in the sci-fi movie Star Wars. As I see it, that’s more or less what’s going on with a lot of otherwise good men. They are trapped in the hatred of feminism and women. You may mock at this, but feminism, which men associate with this hookup culture, alpha-beta polarity, etc. is breeding psycho monsters and misogyny. But I don’t like this either. I know it’s a wrong path, for women are just as human as us, feminists or not.

    As far as I myself am concerned, I have always had a good attitude towards women. But I really hate, hate, hate… feminism and feminists. I have not been able to get through this and this is probably related to the hatred I feel of the education I receive from the rad-fem aunt. My relation with her is not good either. Only externally. I have deep distrust of her and deep down I think I have not forgiven her and just won’t be able to.

    And sometimes I am afraid I have taken this too far away and that I got trapped. Sort of a Darth Vader for feminists and feminism. Although externally I have a good relationship with women, I have little experiences of feminine love to relate with, other than my mother’s and a female friend. Other than that, on a deeper level, only power struggles. I know that this hatred affects my relationships with women, because on a deeper level I cannot relate with them, or trust them, or believe in love. This is the red-pill side-effect. Or hell if you prefer.

    Do you have a cure for that?

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    ““However, I will always reserve the right to call out a true creep when one shows up here.”

    Even months (a year) after the fact?”
    ===
    Lokland, if you go back to that convo I was about a million times meaner to Desi than Susan *ever* was.

    He (D) was also surprisingly good-natured and accepting of the criticism PLUS later agreed with the assessment and went on to change his ways and steer clear of sexual convos with teenage girls.

    If you are a teacher (or role model) of any kind, your ethics have to be *impeccable*.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    Evolution is the best-organized way to describe how we got here. Problem is, for every characteristic, anatomical or behavioral, there are probably six or sixty-six explanations, each held firmly by one or another professional in the field(s).
    Said it before: Paleolithic–which means H. Sap and a number of now-extinct ancestors–people had, according to whatever bones we can find, a shortage of adult women. Probably female infanticide. According to whatever fingers we can find, the digit ratio shows many more high-T men. Consider the behaviors among high-T men. Who outnumbered the women in the group.
    To think the women had any choice at all, unless they’d figured out some way to abort babies from guys they really, really didn’t like, presuming they could figure whose it was, considering the candidates and inventing at least arithmetic, is silly.
    Possibly I’m wrong. Point is, we don’t know who’s right.
    Leaning on ev psych is likely to be unstable.
    OTOH, insisting that a million years of environmental pressure had no effect is even more silly.

  • Bells

    @Susan Walsh

    Don’t forget us, just because you got a bf

    No way! I still have much to learn. I feel like this is only the beginning.

  • Plain Jain

    Re: Cee and May-December faux love –

    My younger sister (20s) told me that she was “seeing an older guy”. Well we were having dosa night at my house with some cousins and friends and she was going to bring him. This man rings the bell (she is nowhere to be found) and as he was the same complexion of most of the people in my house I respectfully said to him, “please come in Uncle” as is customary etiquette in our culture towards elders. Well it turns out he was my sisters “date”!!!! She had parked down the block and told him to go on up while she looked for something in her car.

    A few days later she phoned me to tell me her “boyfriend” was offended that his girlfriend’s sister called him “uncle”.

    Why should he be offended? He’s from our same culture. He knows the score about calling elder males “uncle”. He was just embarrassed because he knows it looks completely ridiculous that he’s dating a woman in the age range that should be calling him “uncle”.

    Plus he had the audacity to say to her, “your sister is not that much younger than me so why is she calling me uncle?”

    Nonsense. He’s an uncle and he knows it.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ PJ,

    My younger sister (20s) told me that she was “seeing an older guy”.

    We’ve discussed the looks, status, money, security that an older man may or may not have, and the golddigging, daddy issues, social climbing, attention seeking motivations a younger woman may or may not have.

    S0 why is your sister dating an Uncle?

  • Sai

    I welcome this talk and support honesty always. I say it’s better to learn and be slightly sad now than to burn years and $ on what may tear you apart later.
    I also refuse to put out/marry without STD test results. I’ll let them stick the needle into me right in front of him.

    @Richard Aubrey
    “Would it increase the temporary value of the bimbo, thus increasing the perceived difference between the bimbo and the more conventional woman?
    Would it be an improvement?”

    I say yes. If nothing else, there would be more time for careful consideration of all the qualities of one’s intended, before the chemicals from sex clouded everybody’s thinking.
    *scrolls down*
    Wait, you said as much.

    @Anacaona, Cooper, Bells
    Congratulations. 🙂

    @Hope
    I’m glad nobody got smashed up.

    Re: dancing
    Somebody please explain how “grinding” counts as dancing.
    (I have no right to speak with authority because I have no dancing skills apart from DDR.)

    @Man
    “They know who are the bad boys, who are the nice guys, who are the romantic ones, the serious ones, the ones who are seeking commitment, everything, etc.”

    …Where can I find one of those? I was home sick the day they were handing them out. 🙁
    (One more reason to endorse the ten-date thing.)

    @SayWhaat
    “Depends. If it’s a online date, I probably wouldn’t be inclined to kiss the guy. I literally just met him!”

    +1
    My shrink ordered me to fantasize about somebody I found attractive. I can only hug Kirk before freaking out and disengaging. Inside my own head.
    TLDR -Some chicks take a while to warm up, even if they find you super hot.

    Re: bingo
    LMAO at the entire concept, especially the free space~
    Still, a quick look at Springer/Maury shows the claims aren’t completely unfounded.

  • SayWhaat

    I had to look up Brian Cox – he looks sort of like a smart Steven Tyler.

    GAAAHH CANNOT UNSEE!

    His demeanor is completely different, though. He has a quiet wit.

    He’s not so old – 35 this year!

    Hmm, Wikipedia tells me he’s 45, actually…

  • Gin Martini

    (I thought I posted this, but maybe it got lost or stuck in moderation)

    J: “Doesn’t Danny, God love him, date single mothers and strippers?”

    And, what’s wrong with strippers and single mothers? They’re decent tax-paying people, too!

    But seriously, it’s including, but not limited, to those people.

    But either way, their “quality” (in your opinion) is irrelevant to the point. The assertion has been made that women in their early twenties *cannot* be attracted to men close to 40, unless there is some other factor like vast sums of money, fame, extreme good looks, power, etc.

    (Sassy of course is careful to only speak for herself, which is why I’m not including her in this. Good on you.)

    But Danny disproves that – he’s not rich, doesn’t look like a model, no six-pack, OMG white, no hair, and has tons of young women attracted to him. All on the power of personality and charm.

    If such women are rare, then why does he have such an easy time finding them? Answer – it’s not rare.

    Now, if you want to assert that only certain quality or types women will do that, and correlate them, that might makes more sense. But it’s not like the attraction is entirely absent.

  • J

    A woman attempting (not necessarily succeeding) to become an 18yo single mom (via the mistakes she is entitled to) is better than actual single mom but significantly worse than one who did not attempt it.

    Lok, there’s a difference between feeling people are “entitled” to mistakes and knowing and accepting that people tend to make them in the process of growing up and not wanting to be punitive. SRSLY. When I discipline my own kids, I tend to discuss theit errors with them and elict promises not to repeat the bad behavior. They generally know when they’ve done wrong and learn from mistakes. No shaming necessary.

    Mistakes are one type, boyfriends are other type.
    Mistake = ulterior motive labelled as maturation.

    I’ll believe its a mistake when the type of men representing the mistake category are equally represented amongst all types.

    This is just confusing. What are you trying to say?

    Charma. Not a believer personally.

    Me neither. I just think that that when people do stupid things, it eventually catches with them. Ex: You smoke, you get cancer. You screw around, you get clamydia. Actions have consequences. Most of what we consider morally wrong is harmful to ourselves or others. Those things will often come back and bite you.

  • Plain Jain
  • Plain Jain

    “Charma. Not a believer personally.”

    “Me neither. I just think that that when people do stupid things, it eventually catches with them. Ex: You smoke, you get cancer. You screw around, you get clamydia. Actions have consequences. Most of what we consider morally wrong is harmful to ourselves or others. Those things will often come back and bite you.”

    Um, people, “karma” means “action” or “activity” in Sanskrit. Nothing to “believe in”.

    Charm on the other hand……

    “But Danny disproves that – he’s not rich, doesn’t look like a model, no six-pack, OMG white, no hair, and has tons of young women attracted to him. All on the power of personality and charm.”

    That is what Danny CLAIMS. We have no way of verifying any of it.

  • J

    INTJs lack of sex is his own fault.

    Meh, I dunno. He’s still pretty young and the bookish, late blooming sort. Unless he gets so embittered that he scares the hell out of nice girls, he’ll do fine eventually. He should relax and stop spending so much time on the net listening to old guys bitch.

  • J

    Congrats, Bells. Good luck!

  • His anger towards HUS is probably 99% Mega’s doing.

    So much for the concept of personal responsiblity, of which the ladies are often chided about around here. Methinks the street runs both ways.

    Hypothetically speaking, if I frequented any rational blog and expressed disdain for factual knowledge, I’d deserve zero credibility. If I frequented any female-oriented blog and expressed contempt for that half of the human race, I’d expect a severe sanctioning. And if I frequented any blog (period) and disparaged the host personally, I’d literally be asking to get the boot. Doubly so if I did all that without an ounce of remorse.

    • And if I frequented any blog (period) and disparaged the host personally, I’d literally be asking to get the boot. Doubly so if I did all that without an ounce of remorse.

      This was the final straw. He became quite the catty bitch on other blogs and I learned of it. And he wasn’t exactly nice here.

  • J

    He has, but not exclusively. Either way, that’s irrelevant.

    Is it? I see these women as having somewhat limited options. I’m sure a home-cooked meal from a 40+ guy looks appealing if you’re 23 with two kids and stretch marks and your last date was 6 months ago. If you’re 23, unemcumbered and looking for love, 27 is a lot more attractive than 40. And strippers? That’s basically one step up from hooker. I’m sure a “date” with a stripper has its price. How many trips to the “champagne room,” extra tips for lap dances, etc. does it take to build a “relationship” that leads to date outside the bar?

    What if I said that 23 yo guys really go for me, but they’re all fat and pimply virgins? Wouldn’t that be relevant? I bet there’d be a whole slew of comments telling me that middle-aged women aren’t hot to guys who have better options. And they’d be accurate.

  • J

    Said it before: Paleolithic–which means H. Sap and a number of now-extinct ancestors–people had, according to whatever bones we can find, a shortage of adult women.

    Interesting. There was a highly quoted study a few years ago that claimed that modern people had twice as many female ancestors than male and that 80% of all women had reproduced with 40% of all men. Roissy did a post on it. Your comment would seem to disprove that.

  • J

    Congrats, Cooper!

  • Plain Jain

    Could Eye-En-Tee-Jay have been the infamous IRT that trolled all the Pee-U-Ay forums for years and then ended up over at the Turko-Persian’s place?

    (Susan, trying to get around your spam filters is a side business all in itself)

  • J

    PJ,

    Is this the guy you mean?

    http://dissention.wordpress.com/

  • Plain Jain

    J, no. However come to think about it, he could also be the IRT (Indian Race Troll), but his style and topics of writing are very, very different, so I highly doubt it. IRT’s only concern was how supposedly all Indian dudes never get laid anywhere. Which is false. The unattractive and weird ones (and there are plenty of those) are the ones that don’t get attention from females. But the hot ones do. I know first hand.

  • Bells,

    congratulations.

  • Plain Jain

    It was clear as cooties what type of Indian guy Eye-En-Tee-Jay was. I have a few of them in my extended family and my radar detection is keen for that type. The greatest tell was when that one female commenter who was in his area offered to meet him platonically for coffee and he did not respond.

    Remember that?

  • … that’s because of his high intelligence coupled with a poor self image PJ.

    Yet, to give credit where it’s due; he was in a fight with Vox, and though he lost it, he did very well. In fact, he was close to winning it.

    Where he failed against Megaman, was in making generalizations against someone who demanded specifics.

  • szopen

    @Sassy

    That’s a sound advice and, being serious this time, I have in fact tried to follow it when I was still young and beautiful. The problem is when you really like to dance, but you are really awful at that. My solution to the problem was to dance only when the disco was so crowded, that even changing facial expression requires certain effort 🙂

    @Young women vs Old men
    I think that part of the reasons many women don’t like older men is the social mores. The pairings old-young are shunned by peers, media, books etc. It would be surprising if that would have no effect.

    Of course it’s not really relevant to guys like me, who at 30 looked as if they were 20, and now are looking as if they are 30 🙂

  • Lokland

    @J

    “Lok, there’s a difference between feeling people are “entitled” to mistakes and knowing and accepting that people tend to make them in the process of growing up and not wanting to be punitive. ”

    I think one of the greatest crimes committed against our culture is the idea that perfection is not possible.

    I would agree that it is unlikely one would be perfect in all things but there are people who never make mistakes in one field or another.

    And perfection in some fields is not only expected but necessary.

    ————-

    Also, when you say ‘accepting someones youthful mistakes as part of growing up.’ What is the difference between that and ‘man up and marry that slut’?

    ————

    “This is just confusing. What are you trying to say?”

    Calling it a mistake may be a misnomer.
    Subconscious, calculated decision might be more accurate.

    And by that I mean, these mistakes almost always occur with men who are higher value than their future boyfriend/husband, no?

    If it were an actual mistake one would expect to see equal representation (of male SMVs) both above and below the woman’s SMV.

    Every mistake a woman makes is almost universally with a higher value male.

    Mistakes are random they shouldn’t show a repetitive pattern (across a group and over time).

    Note:

    I am not suggesting nefarious or evil motives behind the actions. The problem may well be a misunderstanding of her own value and learning it the hard way that does not alter that it likely harms her future boyfriend/husband (or puts him at higher risk of harm).

  • Lokland

    “He’s still pretty young and the bookish, late blooming sort. ”

    He was 21 when he came here initially. That places him at 22/23 now, thats way down on the right bit of the distribution.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “FWIW, I worried that this was the case. I dealt with this behind the scenes, stopped the criticism, and began offering more positive feedback. ”

    That is good to hear.
    Meant with sincerity.

  • Gin Martini

    J, I don’t know what you’re smoking. A hot young woman, possibly earning her living off her looks, is nothing like a fat pimply male kid who’s never been laid. Everyone is attracted to the former and, has her choice of any of them. Nobody is to the latter.

    He’s posted pics of non-strippers kissing him. I guess, like Obama’s birth certificate, that’s not enough proof for our anonymous coward troll.

  • Tomato

    “What I meant is that there are women who look like they don’t understand this: they’ve been playing the “easy to get” to some or a lot guys; then she finds “Mr.Right” and proposes sex only after commitment or marriage.”

    I cannot speak from experience, but perhaps the woman found that playing easy to get led to unsatisfying relationships? And perhaps once she met the perfect guy she was determined to not do anything that would doom the relationship, so she didn’t repeat her previous patterns? Learning from experiences is part of being a human.

    /I am concerned by the undercurrent around here that if a woman does X with a man, she must do X with every man she dates thereafter or she’s “holding out.” That’s not a very charitable way to view women.

    • /I am concerned by the undercurrent around here that if a woman does X with a man, she must do X with every man she dates thereafter or she’s “holding out.”

      I share this concern. It implies that changing oneself for the better is pointless. It’s like saying it’s not OK to stop poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick.

      However, I do believe that men have every right to their own standards, and are free to reject someone who has reformed. What I don’t think makes any sense is assuming that a woman who wants to delay sex is a) not really attracted to you and b) put out early for alpha asshats in the past.

  • Richard Aubrey

    j.
    Said it before: Paleolithic–which means H. Sap and a number of now-extinct ancestors–people had, according to whatever bones we can find, a shortage of adult women.

    Interesting. There was a highly quoted study a few years ago that claimed that modern people had twice as many female ancestors than male and that 80% of all women had reproduced with 40% of all men. Roissy did a post on it. Your comment would seem to disprove that.
    ******************************************************
    I think you could answer that issue by suggesting that the survivors–us- are descended from the ones who reproduced. And, if I get my stat right and I may not, the fewer women reproducing, the more women we’d have as common ancestors. You know. Eve. The Biblical Eve. Just one woman….
    If 80% of all women reproduced with 40% of the men, that doesn’t mean there were a lot of women. It means their offspring were descended from 40% of the men. So we can picture alphas monopolizing the women by force, or women choosing alphas, but if the uneven sex ratio is correct, there may not be any “choice” involved.
    You go back a thousand years and practically everybody’s related to Charlegmagne; less than that and it’s Genghis Khan. A big shooter’s first and second generation of descendants probably have enough advantages to get their genes into the population in substantial numbers before the results become just like everybody else.
    In addition, the hunter-gatherers we know about today do sometimes or frequently commit female infanticide. Nursing for years reduces female fertility and the undergrads’ favorite, “ritual subincision among the Arunta” reduces men’s ability to reproduce. Thing is, the hunter-gatherers whose cultures have survived this long have been pushed to the margins–arctic and sub-arctic regions for Indians and Eskimos and deserts for the Bushmen. They have to be careful about new mouths to feed.
    Even in the Amazon, or the highlands of New Guinea, the folks are doing at least garden agriculture. IOW, the hunter gatherers we know about today or did within the last three or four hundred years have been shoved out of the fat land by farmers over the millenia.
    We’re not sure how pressed for nutrition–and thus concerned about population pressure–the paleolithic folks were when they had the run of the continents. So perhaps the shortage of women has some other reason, and the limited number of skeletal remains found so far allows for getting the ratios wrong by chance.
    Of course, for substantial amounts of time during the periods in question, large parts of the continents were covered by ice and winters were long, summers short and the gathering part of hunter-gatherer possibly minimally important. Knocking over a mammoth or a giant elk would be a good thing, but the animal’s buddies might object. Lots to eat, and possibly one less mouth–aka experienced hunter–to eat it.
    Anyway, as I say, ev psych is an unstable platform and can be made to support anything one wants and sound scientific as icing.
    Feminists don’t like it because if certain male behavioral propensities are wired in, TBTN and guilt tripping won’t work, no matter how righteous they feel. Who’d want to give up guilt tripping?
    IMO, whatever it is is whatever it is and looking to ev psych is fun but not much help.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That’s not a very charitable way to view women.

    What is a “charitable” view of women and why am I required to have one?

  • I’d think the relative shortage of women vs men in the Ancient Times could be explained by:

    1) High mortality rate in childbirth

    2) Women, especially those with children, not being able to run from the predators as fast as men

  • Tomato

    “What is a “charitable” view of women”

    Not thinking you’re entitled to every action a woman has taken because she took it with another man?

    “and why am I required to have one?”

    Who said you were? You’re welcome to that attitude and I’m welcome to condemn it.

  • SayWhaat

    It was clear as cooties what type of Indian guy Eye-En-Tee-Jay was. I have a few of them in my extended family and my radar detection is keen for that type.

    Honestly, he was a near-perfect caricature of the Indian guys I grew up around.

  • SayWhaat

    He’s posted pics of non-strippers kissing him. I guess, like Obama’s birth certificate, that’s not enough proof for our anonymous coward troll.

    How do you know they weren’t strippers? Because he said so? 🙂

    Lmao that you would conflate such a thing with the veracity of a legal document.

    • Lmao that you would conflate such a thing with the veracity of a legal document.

      I’m consistently surprised how frequently people take online reports at face value. (This has nothing to do with Danny.) I suspect that the truth would be shocking, or hilarious, in some cases. Fabricated marriages and families, rampant talk of seduction from men who never leave the house, etc. Some of the women who have left comments in the “pretty girls have it harder” post call themselves beautiful, when I can see their photo clear as day and confidently pronounce them a 6.

      Sometimes people exaggerate, other times they’re deluded, and some weirdos create false online identities entirely.

  • SayWhaat

    I’d think the relative shortage of women vs men in the Ancient Times could be explained by:

    1) High mortality rate in childbirth

    2) Women, especially those with children, not being able to run from the predators as fast as men

    3) Not being able to run fast from predatory men.

  • Escoffier

    nil nisi bonum, folks

  • SayWhaat

    nil nisi bonum, folks

    This from the guy who thought it was appropriate to take pot-shots at family members.

    • @Escoffier

      nil nisi bonum, folks

      I call it a “teachable moment.” It is in my best interest to publicize what behavior gets people banned. He’s a brat, and I hold his mother responsible, to be honest.

  • Lokland

    Who died?

  • Bells

    Too bad INTJ left, I kind of liked him. We were both on the same stage in terms of love life

  • Escoffier

    SW, that’s not what I did and you know it. quite ingenious, actually, to make a false cheap shot that you know I can’t rebut because Susan does not want the topic re-hashed.

    And you have the nerve to call me low, lol.

  • Lokland

    @Tomato

    “Not thinking you’re entitled to every action a woman has taken because she took it with another man?”

    That seems silly if one will consider marrying her.
    I’d expect that plus more if she wanted a ring.

    “I am concerned by the undercurrent around here that if a woman does X with a man, she must do X with every man she dates thereafter or she’s “holding out.” That’s not a very charitable way to view women.”

    Ridiculous idea. If one is going to marry someone what they have done previously makes an excellent starting point.

    To suggest ones spouse deserves less than some past fling is actually laughable (or at least I would laugh at the person willing to accept the deal).

    @SW

    “Honestly, he was a near-perfect caricature of the Indian guys I grew up around.”

    What is the caricature?

  • @Marellus

    Yet, to give credit where it’s due; he was in a fight with Vox, and though he lost it, he did very well. In fact, he was close to winning it.

    Hmmm, must’ve been over politics or religion. Two topics I see no profit in arguing over online or IRL.

    I’ll tell you what did it for me. Forget all the debates over data or research, even the bias against community colleges. That’s business. This may seem trivial to younger folks or non-Americans, but I ceased being polite after one callous, fleeting remark: He blamed the entire statistics profession for intentionally causing the 1986 Challenger disaster (7 dead astronauts). Never took it back, either. That was the beginning of the end for me, as I knew exactly what kind of person I was dealing with.

  • Gin Martini

    SW: “Lmao that you would conflate such a thing with the veracity of a legal document”

    LMAO that you thought that was I conflating *that*.

    I was comparing the people who don’t believe to the Birthers, who require ever-increasing levels of proof, and when given, only say it’s fake and require more. Obviously, no amount of proof will suffice, then.

    So, just to be clear, you think Danny has paid women to pose for those pictures, and can’t attract any for free? He’s lying? Is that your position?

    • So, just to be clear, you think Danny has paid women to pose for those pictures, and can’t attract any for free? He’s lying? Is that your position?

      Danny does well with women. It’s a fact. His secret: he lurrrrrvvveeesss women. Adores them. He’s affectionate, cooks for them, teases them. His game is the polar opposite of asshole game. He’s loyal as hell (still standing by me – one of the last in the sphere). His family is incredibly important to him – he has good values.

      Danny is living proof that chicks dig nice guys.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “He should relax and stop spending so much time on the net listening to old guys bitch.”
    Hooking Up Smart for Men: Pound the Pavement, Be a Sexual Agent: Always Escalate

    Posting online: That’s a hobby that has nothing to do with scoring chicks. Actually it’s counter-productive, takes the time and energy you should be using to go find new people.

    FWIW, didn’t Cooper basically just put up a dating profile and then a girl messaged him asking for sex? Not saying that other guys here are ugly, but when you’re part of the privileged class, so to speak, makes things a little easier, lol.

    @ Man

    Interesting post you had about the Dark Side. I think a lot of us guys have been there. Once you taste the red-pill and start seeing the more unsavory aspects of the women-folk, it can definitely be easy to start hating on them, or start being suspicious. What’s interesting is that you say you have a generally good relationship with women in general, but don’t have good models of loving relationships.

    To me that doesn’t sound like a red-pill issue. It sounds more like a personal issue of trust and intimacy with a woman. The red-pill knowledge is just feeding into that, and providing rationalizations for it. I might be wrong, but that’s my perception of it from the outside.

    I am not qualified to offer advice on that, though. Sorry man. I had a lot of my own trust issues to hammer out, but I hammered them out in the relationship I am currently in…can’t say I necessarily advise that. Risky approach.

    On this:

    “As far as I myself am concerned, I have always had a good attitude towards women. But I really hate, hate, hate… feminism and feminists.”

    I don’t hate feminists. I just hate bitches. It just so happens that a lot of feminists ARE bitches, lol. The feminist blogs and feminists I usually run across are usually vile, unpleasant, sarcastic, and uninterested in discussion. I am actually having a very reasonable discussion with some feminists on another forum I frequent, though they are men.

    The difference is that they are being respectful and conducting themselves in a civil fashion.

    Are you an economics guy? Read Paul Krugman at all? He’s this big-time economist from the east coast that has a column in the NY Times. Practically always a huge dick, hates Republicans. A lot of people hate him for it because he’s basically a pompous asshole.

    Admittedly, he is tough to read. HOWEVER, he is usually insightful, he is very intelligent, and he basically re-invented trade theory (which is why he has a Nobel Prize). So he’s earned the right to be a bit mean if he wants to be.

    Have you ever read Jezebel? They are far, FAR meaner than Krugman, with less than half the intellectual muscle behind them.

    No point in tolerating that nonsense.

    Oh, and I appreciate the effort you made earlier up thread to re-phrase what I was saying. I do suck at messaging sometimes, lol. More than once I’ve tried to explain something to the family that I thought was clear as day and just got blank stares back.

    Re: the name moniker.

    Well, I’m a beta guy. I’m cool with it. I don’t see it as a position of weakness. I’m pretty happy with where I am at in life right now 😉

  • SayWhaat

    SW, that’s not what I did and you know it.

    You’re right, I phrased that incorrectly. You made a cheap shot involving a family member.

    I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of chiding the rest of us on social etiquette.

  • SayWhaat

    So, just to be clear, you think Danny has paid women to pose for those pictures, and can’t attract any for free? He’s lying? Is that your position?

    No, I’m saying I have no idea, because I don’t believe every claim made on the Internet.

  • Escoffier

    Like I said, I can’t respond on substance, and you’re still wrong. But that doesn’t stop you from dredging out something A) that was between Susan and me; B) for which I apologized, to her; C) that she and I have moved on from; and D) that she has said she does not want discussed. And you still have the nerve to chide me for bad manners?

    In any event, all the trash talk about departed posters has the odor of the cool kids congratulating themselves for persecuting another kid until he finally left the playground. I personally see no value in that, in addition to the the bad taste of it.

  • SayWhaat

    “Honestly, he was a near-perfect caricature of the Indian guys I grew up around.”

    What is the caricature?

    Very entitled and arrogant. The belief that all they have to do is get good grades, get into a good school, get a good job and Life will hand them all the rest. Objectification of women and extremely condescending to women competing with (and surpassing) them.

  • SayWhaat

    That’s just the guys I knew, though. I have other Indian guy friends who are just plain awesome. I’m just recounting some of what I experienced growing up.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Tomato

    Who said you were? You’re welcome to that attitude and I’m welcome to condemn it.

    I have no idea what you are condemning. From what it sounds like, you are suggesting that the actions of a woman should only be assumed to be positive in intent and in fact constructed a whole narrative around it.

    Always assuming positive intent is not what I would call charitable, it is very damaging to my interests as a man, and it runs contrary to this blog’s advice that both sexes should filter aggressively when selecting a LTR partner.

    FTR, when I relayed my story “price discrimination,” and how my girlfriend explained it, Susan responded with “Dump that bitch.”

    My impression from many of the feminist commenters in the world is that they would call me insecure and undeserving of a girlfriend anyways because I dared to question her past. that viewpoint is definitely out there.

    I do not think either myself or Susan was uncharitable in that case. I took the price discrimination as a red flag and investigated. I did not immediately dump her, but I did find an answer I did not like and clearly placed me in a questionable position, especially with her other decisions in the past.

    This all seems perfectly on the level to me.

    But I have no idea what you think because you gave a one sentence response to the equivelant of “what does freedom mean to you?”

  • SayWhaat

    D) that she has said she does not want discussed. And you still have the nerve to chide me for bad manners?

    Again, it has to do with the hypocrisy. But fine, I’ll let it be.

    In any event, all the trash talk about departed posters has the odor of the cool kids congratulating themselves for persecuting another kid until he finally left the playground. I personally see no value in that, in addition to the the bad taste of it.

    It’s not trash talk, we were simply discussing what went wrong and the lessons to be learned. No one is congratulating anyone here. I think we all would have liked to see him get a gf and be happy.

  • Escoffier

    ADBG, Tomato is way off to the “left” by the standards of this blog. I find that most of the women here grok the idea of “price discrimination” and don’t blame men for thinking that it’s important.

  • Megaman,

    You sir, are to good commenters what Australia is to good batsmen (in cricket) … a graveyard …

    • @Marellus

      Your hostess disagrees. I don’t always agree with Megaman, but his disgust with certain commenters has been well justified, IMO. If anything, I’m guilty of letting some really unpleasant people hang around too long.

  • angelguy

    “What I meant is that there are women who look like they don’t understand this: they’ve been playing the “easy to get” to some or a lot guys; then she finds “Mr.Right” and proposes sex only after commitment or marriage. For a lot of women this sounds pretty logical. But for men, unless he is pretty naive, this will be a red flag that he’s being played with the hard to get strategy which means that he is the greater fool (all the others before got it with less investment or effort). Women usually do not understand this, because they don’t understand the cost of sex for men (implicit or explicit) and male’s psyche/instincts and needs.”

    I’ve run into this problem.
    In my case, I was just flirting with someone, who is a hot single mom.
    Again, it was just flirting, nothing serious.

    I didn’t go for it, I’m not that desperate.

    Hard to get stops working after 30.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Esc

    ADBG, Tomato is way off to the “left” by the standards of this blog. I find that most of the women here grok the idea of “price discrimination” and don’t blame men for thinking that it’s important.

    Yes, that is my general impression. But I do wonder what exactly is the end point on the left of the blog, so to speak.

    @ Susan

    What I don’t think makes any sense is assuming that a woman who wants to delay sex is a) not really attracted to you and b) put out early for alpha asshats in the past.

    Agreed, but I think a lot of these manosphere memes are more bark than bite.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the issue here is, what is the true inner cause of the “price discrimination”? Tomato’s assumption seems to be that it’s always or mostly some positive growth. Though I will bet that if she were pressed on whether these women regret their pasts, she would say no, and moreover they have nothing to regret.

    Many guys who care about N can get over some “mistakes” if they are genuinely considered mistakes and if the girl has genuinely changed. But what is the % of that? How many girls who did X on date Y with guy Z, but make A, B and C wait a long time are really “repentant” and “have changed”? Those who haven’t, that’s price discrimination pure and simple. She was really attracted to those earlier dudes and something about the current dude ain’t gettin’ it done for her. In those cases, run, boy, run.

    • @Escoffier

      She was really attracted to those earlier dudes and something about the current dude ain’t gettin’ it done for her. In those cases, run, boy, run.

      I agree with this. In cases where this dynamic really is at work, the female is toxic. Head case plus opportunistic user.

      What I have trouble with is the idea that this is at all common. I just don’t see women hanging around men they aren’t attracted to. Two of the girls in my groups were the type to make out with a guy or even have sex, despite being totally not attracted to him. It’s kind of the opposite of what you’re describing. But they never would have wanted any kind of relationship with those guys. If anything, I’ve seen women use betas for sex and then kick them to the curb emotionally.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “What I don’t think makes any sense is assuming that a woman who wants to delay sex is a) not really attracted to you and b) put out early for alpha asshats in the past.”

    Perhaps this is unclear but the first is only a problem if the second occurred.
    The first in isolation is not a problem and actually preferable (at least to me).

    I do not want the mother of my children to be a reformed anything. Ditto that for my daughters.

    —–

    Esc covered the problem with both occurring, highly unlikely it is based on ONLY a reformation. The other guys were likely hotter as well.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I agree that he got to be gratuitously rude to you toward the end. He made some cheap shots that left me rather shocked. However, if we are to be fair, this was after months of persecution by others, in which you yourself did occasionally indulge (though very rarely to the best of my recollection). That’s not to excuse him, I thought the insults to you were out of line, but I don’t really recall him crossing any lines before that–and the pile-ups on him started long before that.

    • @Escoffier

      You may be right about INTJ feeling persecuted here. I did worry about it, and I did attempt to correct it, though perhaps too late. It became one of those difficult situations where the bully is mean because he feels like an outcast himself. Once he tried on that persona, I think he liked it quite a bit – it made him feel powerful.

      As I said earlier, he’s very young for his age. With any luck, he’ll not spend too much time with the MRA crowd (though I believe he and Just1X are having a bromance…). He has some growing up to do, but I don’t think he’s a bad kid. I felt quite fond of him, actually, until the last few months. I finally ran out of empathy.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Susan, why do you hold his mother responsible? For INTJ, I mean?

    Also, his comments kind of lost the ability to offend because they were SO beyond the pale. It was like they were satire, so I couldn’t even take it too seriously. I seem to be the exception, tho! 😉

    • Susan, why do you hold his mother responsible? For INTJ, I mean?

      IDK – I often felt like I wanted to discipline him in a motherly way. I saw a lot of good qualities in him but really nasty behavior. I can recall many times where I spoke to my kids about their own behavior as they were growing up. I get the sense he was never taught those lessons – I’m surprised he has a brother – he almost seemed like an entitled only son. I doubt home schooling did him any favors, either. Not nearly enough social interaction, clearly.

  • Gin Martini

    Exactly, Sue. But to be clear, he’s a good guy, not a Nice Guy.

    There isn’t an ounce of Nice in him. I don’t know if you’ve read all his posts, like I have, but he’s beaten the crap out of up men in bars. He’s totally humiliated women (read his “nuke the hamster” posts) when it served him, etc.

    He even posts a lot of the same exact opinions (on his blog) as people that you can’t stand, almost word for word — but, like Vox, he knows how to hold his frame online.

    • @Gin

      But to be clear, he’s a good guy, not a Nice Guy.

      My mistake, I didn’t mean to say Nice Guy TM. He is a good guy, totally agree.

      He even posts a lot of the same exact opinions (on his blog) as people that you can’t stand, almost word for word — but, like Vox, he knows how to hold his frame online.

      He and I have discussed where we disagree, and why. Like Vox, he is able to live with a divergence of opinion without feeling threatened or getting personal about it. Diplomatic relations are positive. Actually, Danny calls me Tia, and I am very fond of him too.

      I agree, he doesn’t take any crap from anyone. When Danny humiliates women, it’s not to get into their pants, though – that’s the difference. He’s not instilling dread to get laid. He just won’t tolerate bratty behavior.

  • Nil Nici Bonum

    nah

    Kneel to Easy Bosoms !!!

  • Escoffier

    ” I’ve seen women use betas for sex and then kick them to the curb emotionally.”

    I think this happened to me once (though without the sex). I found it quite surprising at the time and I still believe it is unusual, though perhaps incidents have risen.

  • Suzan-deary, will you kindly introduce me to this hostess you mentioned ?

    She sounds interesting.

    • @Marellus

      She sounds interesting.

      No, I fear you would find her to be like a drill sergeant.

  • SayWhaat

    I get the sense he was never taught those lessons – I’m surprised he has a brother – he almost seemed like an entitled only son.

    Being a boy entails a lot of privilege in an Indian family, and being the youngest child can be just as bad. They get spoiled silly and the parents are reluctant to let them grow up.

  • Many guys who care about N can get over some “mistakes” if they are genuinely considered mistakes and if the girl has genuinely changed. But what is the % of that? How many girls who did X on date Y with guy Z, but make A, B and C wait a long time are really “repentant” and “have changed”? Those who haven’t, that’s price discrimination pure and simple. She was really attracted to those earlier dudes and something about the current dude ain’t gettin’ it done for her. In those cases, run, boy, run.

    I don’t know why people get so hung up on price discrimination, in any case it means people are adapting to their market, which everybody should do if they want to get something or somewhere. It all comes down to what and where. Sometimes it is about you, or the quality of men you meet at a certain point of time, or the environment. I moved here in the US with an expectation to go on legit dates (no hang outs) and let relationship develop slowly, but get bombarded by hooking up opportunities and 3 dates- sex rules. I could stay rigid in my old ways or try and adapt by negotiating new recipes, which might not work with all/any american men.

    The other guys were likely hotter as well.

    I’m pretty sure even hot women apply the same discrimination and they probably only date their equals so I doubt it really has anything to do with how hot those men are. I remember thinking the first guy I dated was so hot; now when I think of it, he was alright. It is just the feelings at the time, being new at dating and having some dude like me made the difference. He wasn’t the hottest, just the first one. Having dated a bit more, I’m more discerning now.

    I think the way we can consider that change as a positive thing is in understanding that not one recipe works for everybody. I know a lot of guys want to believe there is only one way for men to function and that their values/dating style/emotional intelligence/motivations all align but it is not true and women have to take stock of that and adapt.
    So I think women shouldn’t be entitled to price discriminate (I really dislike any sort of entitlement) and men are free to question and inquire; provided they can get some truth in such inquiry and be at peace with the information, it is all good.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “” I’ve seen women use betas for sex and then kick them to the curb emotionally.”

    I think this happened to me once (though without the sex). I found it quite surprising at the time and I still believe it is unusual, though perhaps incidents have risen.”

    I’ve seen both.

    With the same guy.

    He does not have good luck with women.

    This is because he has no Inner Game and no Outer Game, lol.

    He had three girlfriends in high school, actually. The first two were one right after the other so it created a lot of drama. Because he’s an intellectual type, he thought it was a fun idea to make a graph of his relationship drama over time. Ended up interning at NASA too.

    Last GF was in high school briefly, but they had a mutual break-up because they weren’t compatible, supposedly.

    In college, he met a very religious girl, and they was some sexual tension with him giving her massages. He was reluctant to escalate. Eventually she just took his hands and put them on her chest, and BOOM, they were dating. Although they never had sex after 2 or 3 years. Religion, you know….
    He dumped her eventually because, you know, she didn’t even really give a shit about him closer to the end. She had a one night stand at a wedding not too much later.

    Oh, she told him about it, too. Not to make him feel bad. But because they were still talking to each other occassionally, as “Friends,” and she felt bad about her One Night Stand.

    Cue Mental Breakdown.

    Eventually he reconnected with his high school girlfriend, who, years later, has graduated art school. One night, they hook up, and he’s happy because he’s finally lost his virginity.

    About a month later, she tells him that they are better as just friends, he doesn’t work well with her social group, they don’t have anything to talk about, etc…

    She gets together with her ex boyfriend.

    There’s all sorts of ways you can get “used” or lose the girl by running bad Game!

  • J

    IRT’s only concern was how supposedly all Indian dudes never get laid anywhere.

    If you look at some of the posts from 2-3 years ago, “can’t get laid by white (English, actually) girls” is a big theme. There’s one story in which he steals a girl’s phone in order to get her to meet him, another were he maroons a girls at a pub far from her home in the hopes that she gets gang-raped as sort of a punishment for rejecting him.

    Which is false. The unattractive and weird ones (and there are plenty of those) are the ones that don’t get attention from females. But the hot ones do. I know first hand.

    I’ve seen plenty of attractive Indian guys. My SIL divorced this absolutely amazing guy, a lawyer with an Oxbridge education. He looked a lot my husband with a deep tan. I thought he was very attractive.

  • Tomato

    “Yes, that is my general impression. But I do wonder what exactly is the end point on the left of the blog, so to speak.”

    Well, perhaps you should spend less time talking around me and more time asking me. For the record, I have no idea what constitutes “left” here, nor what you mean by “end point”.

    “Tomato’s assumption seems to be that it’s always or mostly some positive growth. Though I will bet that if she were pressed on whether these women regret their pasts, she would say no, and moreover they have nothing to regret.”

    More snide talking around me, I see. As usual, you make an ass of yourself when you assume. Some women do have unfortunate experiences and learn from them, others keep on making them, and other still don’t care that they hurt themselves and others. It’s as stupid for me to assume that all/most women have positive growth as it is for you to assume that all/most women are out to fuck men over. And of course there are women that regret their past. Who am I to decide whether or not they should regret it?

    And that’s all the time I’ll waste on rebutting your absurd strawman. You are, of course, free to continue chomping the hay as you typically do.

  • Suzan-deary,

    I know how to present myself to a drill-sergeant …

    Ramrod straight.

  • Escoffier

    Tomato, the “left” is just shorthand for feminist and fem-centric ideas, for instance your stance in another thread that “I don’t love you anymore is” is sufficient grounds for a divorce being non-frivolous.

    In this instance, your claim that “price discrimination” is a made-up meme used by uncharitable men to pass judgment against women is also on the “left.”

    That’s just descriptive, it says nothing about whether you are right or wrong in either belief.

  • J

    I think one of the greatest crimes committed against our culture is the idea that perfection is not possible……..Also, when you say ‘accepting someones youthful mistakes as part of growing up.’ What is the difference between that and ‘man up and marry that slut’?

    Lok, not to be mean, but everytime I hear you say something like this, I find it harder and harder to talk to you. I personally can be pretty hard on both myself and others, but I do realize that it’s a flaw and not a virtue. Some motherly advice that I’m sure you don’t want–knock it off before you hurt your wife and child.

    And don’t bother with a rebuttal. I’m done with you on this topic and some others as well.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Well, perhaps you should spend less time talking around me and more time asking me. For the record, I have no idea what constitutes “left” here, nor what you mean by “end point”.

    I have asked you. See Comment 558. It took a lot more time to write that out than to make a response to Esco, too. I feel comfortable with the time allocation here.

  • Escoffier

    I am curious, J, what you would make of the “prodigal son” meme or, say, Augustine’s Confessions (give me chastity and continence but not yet).

    I take L to be saying that it is often not accurate to call things “mistakes” that were entered into willingly and enjoyed, certainly at the time and perhaps even in the remembrance. Sometimes people try to rationalize such behavior as “mistakes” so as to gain the favor of a third party.

    Lest you think I am hard-hearted on this point, I could repeat the experience I had with my college GF, a girl who I think did make mistakes and did genuinely repent of them. What are the %ages of “girls with pasts” who have “no regrets” v. those who “made mistakes” v. those who deep down have no regrets but say they did for the sake of some present or future good, I could not say. However, I can safely say that all three categories exist in the real world.

  • J

    @Gin Martini

    And I’m done with you on the topic of “hot” older men and their appeal to young women. I really don’t want to discuss Danny any further; he’s a nice enough guy and I don’t care to diss him by further speculating on his sex life. Suffice it to say that I wouln’t want to see my sons sucked into the trap of being a wallet for strippers at 40.

    As to the troll comment, was that addressed at me? I would define a troll as someone who constantly shows up at a blog to post comments at odds with the blog’s basic philosophy. I don’t think that’s me. If you meant PJ, please address her and not me.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Esc

    So glad you brought up the Prodigal Son meme. Jackie is quite the advertisment for religion, and I quite liked the Bible series on the History Channel. Especially the Hans Zimmer soundtrack.

    So I did some reading and initially had trouble with the Prodigal Son meme. Especially since I identified more with the son who stayed at home and worked hard and apparently got the shaft. Or so he felt.

    Why should someone who has been sinning their entire life, with great gusto, suddenly get all the warm accepting love of God right after he falls on hard times?

    I guess the point is that the love of God is freely given to all who confess, and ask for forgiveness. The Prodigal Son realized the wages of sin are death, but he also was willing to return to his father and WORK and realized he had screwed up.

    He did not take his inheritance, spend it all, say what a righteous time he had, then go back to his father and say “okay, gimme more money now! By the way, I am not going to work hard or do anything…”

  • angelguy

    However, I do believe that men have every right to their own standards, and are free to reject someone who has reformed. What I don’t think makes any sense is assuming that a woman who wants to delay sex is a) not really attracted to you and b) put out early for alpha asshats in the past.

    I think most of the time it is assumed that a man dumps a woman, it is because she won’t put out. But there is also the factor that, when you are attracted to someone and your feeling are not reciprocated, there is a danger of being hurt and feelings of shame.
    No man wants to be a beta-orbiter.

    While, it may seem unreasonable to expect immediate physical gratification, leading someone on whom you don’t share the same feelings with is just as damaging as men sleeping with women on the first or 2nd date and not seeing them again.

    • While, it may seem unreasonable to expect immediate physical gratification, leading someone on whom you don’t share the same feelings with is just as damaging as men sleeping with women on the first or 2nd date and not seeing them again.

      Actually, the latter is more costly in real terms, but I get your point. It is very wrong for a woman to lead on a man in order to get attention or other benefits from him when she is not interested in him for a relationship.

      BTW, the study about tactics for avoiding entanglement made clear that women do this just as much as men do. They have sex and then reject the guy for emotional intimacy.

  • Escoffier

    ADBG, true. But he is still treated better than the good son by their father.

    My question for J is more whether she thinks repentance is warranted or necessary in these cases, or are men out of line for wanting it? (To the extent that they do want it.)

  • Lokland

    @J

    “I personally can be pretty hard on both myself and others, but I do realize that it’s a flaw and not a virtue.”

    Why?

    “Some motherly advice that I’m sure you don’t want–knock it off before you hurt your wife and child.”

    How?

    “And don’t bother with a rebuttal. ”

    Don’t need one.

    ——-

    “I take L to be saying that it is often not accurate to call things “mistakes” that were entered into willingly and enjoyed, certainly at the time and perhaps even in the remembrance. Sometimes people try to rationalize such behavior as “mistakes” so as to gain the favor of a third party.”

    Yup.
    People will lie to themselves (and others) if it is self serving and they will believe that lie.

  • J

    @Richard

    Loads of interesting possibilities to ponder in your post. Thanks.

    IMO, whatever it is is whatever it is and looking to ev psych is fun but not much help.

    Yep. Agreed.

  • Cooper

    @Bells

    Woo hoo!! Way to go!

    Maybe Sue needs to do a post on how cuddling & scifi movies being the key to a mans heart 😉

    @INTJ
    (Come back)

    J could be correct, and he might be taking time to “relax and stop spending so much time on the net listening to old guys bitch.”

    I personally never saw very much difference between him and I. Always pictured him as a 2y younger me, in some ways.

    @ADBG
    It was more like created a dating profile, never heard from back from 99.9% of messeges, and then got contacted. 🙂

  • Goodgawdalmagtie … thizs qdwest 4 , ha i beet yoou wordpiss .,. I ham stell typging … , i mean .,. Faklhv faklit fuuuck at … Fuck it … Shiauut … Shet .,. Shat … F … Nevermind … I cunt spell fwornikashun … Bye … Heineken !!!

  • Cooper

    @Gin #493

    This is true.

    @Sai
    Thanks!

  • angelguy

    “BTW, the study about tactics for avoiding entanglement made clear that women do this just as much as men do. They have sex and then reject the guy for emotional intimacy.”

    I am pretty sure this happens more often than it is reported.
    The only difference is men will talk about it less.
    The double standard of Men wanting emotional initmacy, and being shamed for it, which was talked about in another thread.

  • JP

    “I guess the point is that the love of God is freely given to all who confess, and ask for forgiveness. The Prodigal Son realized the wages of sin are death, but he also was willing to return to his father and WORK and realized he had screwed up.”

    The point is to ultimately change your behavior so that it’s in alignment with the Good, the Beautiful, and the True.

  • Man

    @ADBG:

    It sounds more like a personal issue of trust and intimacy with a woman.

    Very likely. We all have that. We all want love.

    About the “dark side” everybody has it, men and women alike. Feminists just chose the wrong path. Men are reacting the way they are wired to.

    About “beta”: every “beta” has a raging “alpha” inside him. Categorizing men into alpha and beta only serves feminists interests and doesn’t contribute to harmonious relationships and peace in society. After all, every man who wants to fabricate value for himself to be considered an alpha (women decide who’s the alpha by the way) just to get pussy is a clown in women’s hands and doesn’t even know it.

    Actually don’t like much intellectual discussions. I just sometimes resort to archetypes as a way of understanding social dynamics and concepts. All the best!

  • Man

    About price discrimination.

    I see a lot guys trying to make women understand and accept “price discrimination”. They will never understand and accept this, just like men will never understand and accept that they have close to zero sexual value to women. The day women will pursue and assault men just to have sex with them; buy cars and to a lot of other things for that; be nice and chivalrous to men also for the same purpose; take all the risks, initiative, handle rejection, etc. and even be willing to pay for sex then they will finally understand. Till there they won’t.

    Also, as a rule of thumb, they never regret of their sexual misadventures, only of the consequences a posteriori, such as you guys devaluing them for their sexual history. In a woman’s mind she can have 500 partners, be a porn star, a hooker and still love and be faithful to you. That’s how they see it. They operate on a different frame of mind and sex is not the aim but the means for something.

    Also, you don’t have to apologize or explain you preference for virgins. This is a feminist induced shame and guilt. Even cads prefer virgins to marry. So why not you the “good guys” who often don’t even have the opportunity to have a virgin in the first place and are always the last in the line? If you are the “good guys” you are entitled much more than cads to have a virgin! Aren’t you?

  • J

    I am curious, J, what you would make of the “prodigal son” meme

    Interesting question. My own congregation is big on accepting prodigals providing they knock off the bad behavior. I have mixed feelings and thoughts on this. There’s a part of me that really wants to see evil people suffer, but my higher self reasons that the truly repentent deserve a second chance. Additionally, I myself have forgiven and been forgiven by others. It’s just too damn hard to live without giving and receiving forgiveness.

    or, say, Augustine’s Confessions (give me chastity and continence but not yet).

    I gotta admit that Augustine makes me giggle. Part of it is his later being canonized; the other part of course is the obvious enjoyment of sin and the desire to keep going. It does seem to me that repentence should preceed forgiveness and the only way you can know if someone is truly repentant is to keep tack of their actions. Nonetheless, I believe change is possible–difficult but possible. If you love people, you cut them a little slack.

    I take L to be saying that it is often not accurate to call things “mistakes” that were entered into willingly and enjoyed, certainly at the time and perhaps even in the remembrance. Sometimes people try to rationalize such behavior as “mistakes” so as to gain the favor of a third party.

    I’m not interested in spedculating as to what L is saying. I answered your question because it is an interesting one. I have no wish to continue my argument with Lok. It’s a waste of Internet “breathe.”

    In the vein of discussing old relationships, I had a bf, whom I adored who treated me and evryone else for that matter very poorly. A few years back he found God and a 12 step program and apologized. To his shock, I quickly forgave him. He asked why. I told him that in point of fact, it was all water under the bridge to me. It was over a quarter of a century ago. I now had a good husband, two gorgeous, wonderful sons, a job I liked, friends, a lovely home, etc. My life was good; I had long gotten over the hurt he inflicted on me. He OTOH (and I didn’t verbalize this to him) had nothing–no wife, kids, home, etc. He was living daily with the consequences of his actions. And painfully for him, he was back in the neighborhood where he could frequently see me out and about. His nieces and nephews rocked out to my son’s band. How much energy should I spend hating?

  • Anacaona

    For what is worth I liked INTJ. I actually like ‘as friends’ every guy here.
    I do think some of them will come back when they spent enough time with the extreme manospherians and remember why they left in the first place.

    • For what is worth I liked INTJ. I actually like ‘as friends’ every guy here.
      I do think some of them will come back when they spent enough time with the extreme manospherians and remember why they left in the first place.

      And FWIW I’m happy to welcome back anyone who behaves in a civil manner, towards other commenters, and especially me. 🙂

  • J

    @Marellus

    I almost forgot to say that I liked what you said about the premise and the poem. Very nice.

  • Escoffier

    I wasn’t really asking about hating/revenge/”getting over” or whatnot, but rather in the context of price discrimination.

    You had said earlier to one-wh0-shall-not-be-named that people (in the particular context, women) ought not be judged or held to certain consequences because of past “mistakes.” I doubt any of us would disagree that people ought to be forgiven for their genuine mistakes, provided they truly repent. (And in certain religious traditions, forgiveness must precede repentance and indeed take place even in the absence of repentance.)

    However, the loophole here is obvious and it would seem to be being exploited rather shamelessly in our times. That is, some people choose to “live it up” and then “settle down.” The “living it up” is then passed off as “mistakes” to those who are uneasy about it, when in reality it was all chosen quite on purpose and enjoyed.

    The extreme, yet illustrative, case would be a Catholic who sins his whole life and then confesses on his death bed. Enjoy a lifetime of sin, get into heaven. Have cake, eat it.

  • J,

    ina gomna bye yoo a bear !!!

  • Fuk, end itk knaw my spillimgz is wrogn … Dubk .,. fvck … Goddamn oll nakio phines … Phlones … 5hitt … Noooo …

  • Jackie

    Re: “Cheap Grace” (Bonhoeffer, I think?) and the “God has forgiven me– why can’t you?” stuff, using death-bed conversion as a kind of “Get Out of Hell Free” card:

    In order for us to experience grace– true grace– we have to have a realization of how our actions have affected others and be authentically repentant for this to work. For you to actually *believe* it and *experience* it.

    Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of empty words.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Esco, do you REALLY think God works like that? Having cake and eating it, too? Isn’t that kind of insulting to omniscience, that people could “game the system” like that?

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, I don’t disagree, but such a realization is possible “at the last minute” as it were. It could still be totally genuine.

    But leaving aside the religious question, it seems to me that in these times quite a lot of people do all kinds of things that used to be frowned upon precisely because they know they can get away with it. Plus, if anyone objects, they have a whole rhetorical arsenal at their command–“prude!” “none of your business!” “You’re insecure!” and on and on–that they can bring to bear on the objector. And they know that society at large, and the commanding heights universally, will back them up.

  • J

    The extreme, yet illustrative, case would be a Catholic who sins his whole life and then confesses on his death bed. Enjoy a lifetime of sin, get into heaven. Have cake, eat it.

    Not my personal theology. I do stand behind “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” though. It’s in that sense that I don’t believe in shaming. (I also think it entrenches, not dissuades, bad behavior and am careful in discipling my kids to condemn bad behavior as opposed to calling them bad.) I don’t recall ever saying that I don’t believe in judging. We all have the right to make judgments about what we can or can’t tolerate in other people. I do recognize though that we live in a imperfect world filled with fallible people. Those of us with impossibly high standards will either end up alone or making those around us very miserable. Not a good way to live. IMO.

    Feel free to parse that in what ever way you wish. I’m going to walk my dog and then go to the gym.

  • Gin Martini

    J, you’re done? Excellent. 🙂

    No “troll” wasn’t directed at you. You made the assertion, which PJ agrees with, and is PJ demanding photo as evidence proof. I used “the anonymous troll” specifically to name her, since because I prefer not to use her “name”. Clearly you’re not an anonymous troll.

    ——

    ADBG: It took me a long time to understand the Prodigal Son. For the longest time, I thought it was just about forgiveness for a mistake. Then, a few very Bible-literate people told me that nobody really identifies with or likes the brother that stayed home, and HE’S the bad guy.

    The lesson is go out, have fun, sin all you want, get redeemed later, much later, because there is more reward in that. Now I get it! You only have credibility by experiencing and then turning away from sin, not by avoiding it entirely.

    • The lesson is go out, have fun, sin all you want, get redeemed later, much later, because there is more reward in that. Now I get it! You only have credibility by experiencing and then turning away from sin, not by avoiding it entirely.

      I sincerely hope you’re joking.

      “We had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.”

      Luke 15:32

      Seems self-explanatory to me. Imagine hearing your child was killed at the marathon. Then learning she was OK after all, just a bad rumor. That’s the meaning of the prodigal son.

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, no, I think that they only way God makes sense if you assume that He would see right through such a strategy.

    However, what of the genuine case? Lifetime of sin, genuine repentance at the last minute? Still gets to “keep” as it were all the sin. So the net effect, from a calculating perspective, is the same.

    Machiavelli asked for, and received, last rights.

    • Machiavelli asked for, and received, last rights.

      Ha, he was a fan of Cesare Borgia. I suspect neither one of them made out well in the end.

  • J

    ina gomna bye yoo a bear !!!

    LOL. A live grizzly please.

  • Escoffier

    J, the point here is, quite a lot of N that is racked up in the post-SR age is not “mistaken” in any sensible meaning of that term. It was chosen willingly and knowingly. One may regret it later if it turns out to have unforeseen and negative consequences but that alone does not make it a “mistake.”

    Hence we get to a world where it is conceded that people have a right to judge what the expect from others whom they let into their lives, but it is also said that to expect a reasonable lack of self-indulgent mistakes is to hold “impossibly high standards.”

    The issue at root is, when it comes to behavior X, do we want more of it or less of it? If we want more of it, then one way to get it would be to infuse the culture with the idea that “fallibility” entails a license to make “mistakes.”

  • Man

    Judgements of moral order and sense of justice is a manly thing. That’s why Patriarchy and Religion go hand in hand; and were sort of always in conflict with women. See Eve and Lilith.

    But the only true religion is forgiveness and love: Prayer of St. Francis.

  • I don’t always agree with Megaman, but his disgust with certain commenters has been well justified, IMO.

    I wasn’t insulting Megaman, Suzan. My comment to him pertained to the glorious game of c0ricket … and in cricket there’s a general agreement that no matter how good a batsman you are (for your country), you’re not on the map if you perform poorly on a tour in Australia.

    Most good batsmen perform poorly in Australia.

    But those batsmen that can do well against Australia, in Australia, become legends.

    I’m talking about batsmen like Ian Botham (England), Viv Richards (West Indies), Faf du Plessis (South Africa) and Sachin Tendulkar (India).

    It was a compliment.

    • @Marellus

      Sorry I didn’t understand your cricket analogy. :-/

  • … c0ricket …

    Bacchus, lord of the soothing spirits … I toast thy health … and will merrily toast thine enemies twice …

  • Lokland

    @OTC

    ” It took me a long time to understand the Prodigal Son. For the longest time, I thought it was just about forgiveness for a mistake. Then, a few very Bible-literate people told me that nobody really identifies with or likes the brother that stayed home, and HE’S the bad guy.

    The lesson is go out, have fun, sin all you want, get redeemed later, much later, because there is more reward in that. Now I get it! You only have credibility by experiencing and then turning away from sin, not by avoiding it entirely.”

    Note:

    Women are fickle and prefer the man who is the prodigal son.
    Men do not. See manosphere opinion on born again virgins for details (ie. there is no such thing as a prodigal daughter).

  • Lokland

    “I see a lot guys trying to make women understand and accept “price discrimination”. ”

    I have 0 problem with woman practicing and utilizing price discrimination (though I would never accept it myself).

    Its an insult directed towards any man to assume he is stupid enough to believe and accept that growing up requires mistakes before settling down. (Or IOW a worse deal for him.)

  • Gin Martini

    Lok, I’m not sure I agree, and it’s not just limited to sex. People trust those who have been truly tested, more than those who haven’t. The hierarchy seems to be: Repentant > Defiant > Innocent

  • Lokland

    “Lok, I’m not sure I agree, and it’s not just limited to sex. People trust those who have been truly tested, more than those who haven’t. The hierarchy seems to be: Repentant > Defiant > Innocent”

    Could go either way. On certain traits having been tested is better whereas on others it is not.

    Examples.

    When trusting a person to handle money. Innocent is the only acceptable path.

    When a woman chooses a husband its either repentant or innocent or defiant depending on the women. (Will not offer speculation of relative frequencies.)

    When choosing a wife, strong lean towards innocent > repentant > defiant.

    When hiring for a job. Mostly innocent > repentant > defiant. (Occasionally repentant > innocent).

    Its dependent on the relative cost involved if one fails, the risk in taking one on as well as the potential benefits of each type.

    Conclusion, prodigal son only applies to certain scenarios where experience (even at loss of trust) outweighs the inexperience of innocence.

  • Man

    Its an insult directed towards any man to assume he is stupid enough to believe and accept that growing up requires mistakes before settling down. (Or IOW a worse deal for him.)

    Did you read my last paragraph? I was just trying to make the issue more understandable to both parties.

  • However, if we are to be fair, this was after months of persecution by others…

    My interactions with him went from neutral to negative between late Sep. 2012 and late Mar. 2013. But we didn’t butt heads daily or even weekly, and I mostly check out over the holidays. Let’s not follow in his footsteps by engaging in revisionist history. All this stuff is on the record for posterity.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Back in the day when I thought I might be pushing a platoon in SEA, I learned the Last Prayer–I capitalize it but it’s only my idea–of three religions.
    The 23d Psalm, the Sh’ma, and the Catholic Act of Contrition. I learned the Sh’ma phonetically since I don’t speak Hebrew.
    I also learned or relearned about the Catholics’ conditional absolution, first used, as described affectingly by Mackinlay Cantor in his Landmark book on Gettysburg, for the Irish Brigade before they went into the line.
    I even recalled my Latin, “ego te absolvo”. Not being certified to absolvo anybody, it was only to be a comfort.
    Anyway, for the RCs, the key is sincerity. Planning on playing hard until the death bed doesn’t score well for sincerity at that point. Somebody might think so, but he may be disappointed.
    I understand that a lot of the NY firefighters got conditional absolution before going into the Twin Towers. I can imagine they were sincere.

    If I understand the prodigal thing, it demonstrates the prodigal love of the father, and thus of God, as it’s a parable.
    Not sure about that. We like to see mercy four ourselves and justice for most others.

  • Sassy6519

    I think what causes a lot of issues is that many people are not willing to back up/stand by their actions. I do think that many people, women and men alike, categorize some of their life experiences as “mistakes” in order to “save face” in front of other people.

    Why not just own one’s experiences, good or bad, and surround oneself with people who can accept those experiences as well? A woman with a promiscuous past may not be able to win the favor of the types of men who frequent this blog, but I don’t believe that she would have a problem finding at least 1 man who accepts her for who she is.

    I admit to not regretting any of the sex I’ve had. I do regret some of the negative consequences that have followed, however. If a guy expected me to tell him that I regretted my sexual history, I would just move on. I would be much better served finding a guy who could accept me as I am, good and bad sides alike.

  • Plain Jain

    “So, just to be clear, you think Danny has paid women to pose for those pictures, and can’t attract any for free? He’s lying? Is that your position?”

    Its not difficult to get women to pose for pictures with you. Pee-U-Ay wannabes have been doing it for decades now. The only Pee-U-Ay who does NOT have an ensamble for random pics with various chick is our favorite Turko-Persian, which is odd, given how he claims to be bedding women across continents.

    I guess he knows his target audience is so easy to please (simps) that they don’t even require faux evidence like a pic of his arm around a chick in front of the Kremlin.

  • Plain Jain

    “I am curious, J, what you would make of the “prodigal son” meme or, say, Augustine’s Confessions (give me chastity and continence but not yet).”

    The problem with Christianity as well as Victorian England (one and the same, really) is that they made all forms of even marital sex taboo, even “sinful”, except the “missionary position”.

    Then, after they invented the problem (hysteria), they had to invent the solution – doctors who manually stimulated women’s clits in order to produce orgasmic release.

    That’s a very round about way to get to a simple destination. Had other forms of marital sex such as oral or manual or reverse cow girl NOT been artificially made taboo and sinful, all that convolution would not be needed.

    But I guess it was “good for the economy” and “job creation”.

    The doctors certainly were laughing all the way to the bank.

  • Plain Jain

    “Susan, why do you hold his mother responsible? For 1NTJ, I mean?”

    Susan was right to do so. She probably doesn’t know this but perhaps she intuitively picked up on it or remembered something yours truly had posted here before about Eendian guys and their mothers. (again Susan, your spam filter has me doing back flips).

    In traditional South Asian culture the sons, especially the eldest son or only sons, never leave home. They are expected to live with their parents forever and bring their brides home to live their as well. Its called “joint family”. Sons are spoiled in South Asian culture.

    The mothers treat their sons like a romantic surrogate. I’m not kidding.

    I won’t bore you all by getting into the details here. Suffice it to say, Freud missed the boat by not making a trip to South Asia.

  • PJ…”The problem with Christianity as well as Victorian England (one and the same, really) is that they made all forms of even marital sex taboo, even “sinful”, except the “missionary position”.”

    I’m not a Christian, but this is ridiculous. There were Christians for almost 2000 years before Victoria, and I’m pretty sure that a lot of them had good sex lives. (Note also that there are Christians in places like Greece and Russia which are pretty much outside the orbit of British (Victorian or otherwise) influence.

    “Had other forms of marital sex such as oral or manual or reverse cow girl NOT been artificially made taboo and sinful, all that convolution would not be needed.”

    So if all men were (magically) to become excellent lovers here and now in 2013, vibrator sales would drop to zero?

  • Cooper

    ” A woman with a promiscuous past may not be able to win the favor of the types of men who frequent this blog, but I don’t believe that she would have a problem finding at least 1 man who”. . . **she could hide it from.**

    😛 😛

    “I admit to not regretting any of the sex I’ve had. I do regret some of the negative consequences that have followed, however. If a guy expected me to tell him that I regretted my sexual history, I would just move on. I would be much better served finding a guy who could accept me as I am, good and bad sides alike.”

    Sassy, while I don’t doubt a promiscuous woman in “finding at least 1 man who accepts her for who she is” – I just hope you never compromise for a guy accepting you according to how much (little) he knows.
    By negative consequences afterwards, do you mean guys judging?
    Cause if you’re going to admit to not regretting any of the sex you’ve had, surely you can’t fret about telling men you see all about it, right?

    If a girl were to tell me her sexual history was none of my business, I would just move on.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    Fair and well said.
    I admire your honesty.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Cooper

    I’ve been very forthcoming about my sexual history with men that I’ve dated. I don’t see a point in duping someone about it. I’ve never told a guy that my sexual history is “none of his business”. It seems like a rather stupid move. That would make me look super guilty of something, even if the pertinent information was not that bad.

    By negative consequences afterwards, do you mean guys judging?

    No. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a guy judging me poorly for my sexual history. What I meant was that not all of the consequences of my sexual choices have been the most positive, which seems normal to me.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You’ll have to forgive, but I do not understand the concept of divorcing the negative consequences from the action. Even guys who have hangovers the next day will say “oh god, I should not have drank that much last night,” not “it was quite awesome to drink that much and I do not regret any of it but I do regret the hangover the next day. Please do not judge me for my alcoholism.”

    Actually, the only ones who say that say it as a joke.

    I’m having serious difficulty understanding this.

  • Lavazza

    SW: so you don’t agree that women are (more) hypergamous and men are (more) polygamous? Do you mean that they are exactly the same or that it is even the other way around?

    The only people who need to “define the relation” are women seeing men with concurrent romantic interedts. If a man suspects concurrent romantic interest but is getting some, he does not need define the relstionship, since the woman is either just stringing these men along or is totally indiscrininate.

    If a man asks “are you serious about this?” He wants to know if the woman will have sex with him soon, not if she will drop possible other love interests. Men know that if they make the cut, other men aren’t getting anything.

  • doomwolf

    @Lokland, OTC, et al

    If you’re interested in a deeper look at the story of the Prodigal Son, see if you can find this at the library:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Prodigal-God-Timothy-Keller/dp/1594484023/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368226731&sr=8-1&keywords=prodigal+god

    The first half deals with the Prodigal Son, the second half with his brother, and it’s really well written/easy to understand. Also, it’s 139 pages, so you can burn through it in a couple of hours.

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    For me, it’s like this.

    Did I enjoy the sex I’ve had? Yes.
    Do I think back on the sexual memories fondly? Yes.
    Did I enjoy having the sex during the moment that the sex took place? Yes.
    Did I agree and willingly engage in the sexual activities? Yes.
    Would I have the same sex again? Yes.
    Do I regret the sex? No.

    As far as alcohol is concerned, I don’t regret drinking even though I’ve experienced harsh hangovers afterwards. In the moment, drinking was fun. In the moment, I was having a blast. I even look back on some of my drunken moments fondly. Do I regret drinking? No. Do I not like the hangovers? Yes.

    I think it’s entirely possible to not like the consequences of an action without regretting the action. It’s similar to how some people who cheat never regret cheating. They simply don’t like getting caught.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Okay, I can understand that. That is quite sensible and I use the same calculation in everything I do, because rarely do all of my actions result in positive consequences.

    Assuming a girl has had a casual sex past with occasional hangovers but overall liked it and had fun and now says she wants to “Settle down” because she doesn’t want hang-overs anymore, well, that would be the classic “price discrimination” strategy.

    And it’s a red-flag.

  • Anacaona

    I’m never drinking again song!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAmyJGHQRl4

  • mr. wavevector

    “it was quite awesome to drink that much and I do not regret remember any of it but I do regret the hangover the next day

    a.k.a freshman year of college

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I went drinking last night and had a hangover today 🙁

    But so many fun stories! Nuclear IOI girl apparently thought another guy in the office liked her. Why? Because whenever we went out to lunch, she wouldn’t finish her food and this other guy would.

    I am not making this up.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Mr. WV,

    I commuted all four years of college. Did not have a freshman year like that, lol.

    However, summer of 2012 was basically like that for me. Some great times. Also something I would do differently if I could do back and again. No point in mourning lost time anymore, though. Onwards to bigger and badder things.

  • Jackie

    Re: The Prodigal Son

    Something I used to overlook in this, when I was feeling slighted like the “good” son, was what his father tells him when GS starts beefing about the PS:

    Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine!

    In other words, You already have EVERYTHING from me! It’s all yours! Now let’s be glad to share it with your brother.

    GS thought if he followed the rules, that that would be enough. No heart or soul necessary. What he really worshipped was “being right” instead allowing for love and forgiveness to win the day.

    PS didn’t follow the rules, but he had a sincere heart that yearned for grace. That was his salvation.

  • HanSolo

    Regarding the prodigal son, he didn’t regain any vast inheritance. The good son still was going to get everything that the father then had. So, basically, he was a bit petty and jealous that he didn’t get a fatted calf banquet but once he inherited everything that was coming his way he could have dozens of fatted calf banquets.

    The father was glad that the PS came back and wanted to show him some love and kindness. Who knows, maybe he should have shown a bit more appreciation to the good son too.

    In the end the good son was far better off and morally superior to the prodigal son. However, he was petty in that one moment of jealousy.

  • Jackie

    PJ

    PJ, where did you get this information? Because you are presenting a lot of oddities as facts. NOT cool.

    My Catholic education taught us: Hey, sex is great *and* it is such a powerful bond that it should be experienced in the sacrament of marriage.

    Have you read ANYTHING from “Theology of the Body” or the “Humane Vitae” or do you just spout off to offend people? I respect your religion and culture. Why can’t you respect mine in return?

    Lastly, the stuff you are talking about can be found in fiction books like _The Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein” and Franz Mesmer fan-fic. Why not keep it there instead of talking crap on other people’s religions?

  • Plain Jain

    Jackie, I’m talking about the Victorian Era. The Church of England and what not. However do you really think back in those days cunning linguistics were promoted by the Catholic Church?

  • Jackie

    @Esco
    “However, what of the genuine case? Lifetime of sin, genuine repentance at the last minute? Still gets to “keep” as it were all the sin. So the net effect, from a calculating perspective, is the same.”
    ===
    Esco, imagine, if you will, in an alternate reality you are the KING of the Alphas. Instead of meeting Mrs. Esco, you sociopathically exploited scores of girls. Not just promiscuous ones (who have issues enough), you manipulated innocents who played with fire and got burned. The experience left scars FOR LIFE.

    You broke hearts, callously; you passed on tons of STIs; dozens of your children were either aborted or abandoned.

    All this Dark Triading eventually cost you your integrity (that was the first to go), your sense of wonder, any goodness or morality, your ethics, and, finally, your reputation. You can’t lose respect for yourself, since you never had any.

    None of your paramours/sex partners cares to see you and your children scattered across the country either spit on the ground when they hear your name; or have a dad-size hole in their hearts that can NEVER be filled.

    Now, on your deathbed, you come to Christ. And you are touched by Divine Mercy. The Peace That Surpasses Understanding. You are illuminated to see what a life with a soul dwelling in peace and goodness would have been like. To be loved beyond comprehension by God.

    Are you thinking,

    “HEH, scammed you all!” or
    “I just totally wasted my life. It could have been SO much more.”

    You tell me, Esco.

  • Jackie

    @PJ

    When you write “Christianity” in the same post as the present-day term “job creation” it’s hard to see that.

    And we are taught that the “Catholic Church” isn’t about the hierarchy (who I don’t just have issues with, I have SUBSCRIPTIONS, don’t get me started…). The church is THE PEOPLE. Us lowly folk who are doing the best we can to promote peace and care for “the least of us.” Who would Jesus be found with today: A gold-mitre’d Bishop or the homeless guy sleeping in the pew?

    I think the Victorian Era public prudishness — which was matched by some of the highest %-ages of prostitutes EVER– can’t be tied just to religion.

    PJ, if you want to know more about what I (and other normal Catholics) believe, you should read “Tattoos On The Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion” by Fr. Greg Boyle, SJ.

    We aren’t all Puritanical hypocrites, you know. 😉

  • Plain Jain

    “I think the Victorian Era public prudishness — which was matched by some of the highest %-ages of prostitutes EVER– can’t be tied just to religion. ”

    What to speak of the creation of twisted fetishes.

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “I sincerely hope you’re joking.”

    Not at all. We discussed this long ago, and consensus was that GS was the asshole, and you IIRC agreed. I suppose I could google it out.

    Jackie #655, why the huge strawman? A “lifetime of sin” could also be unmarried sex with one, and only one, person you truly love. Maybe you now know why I had to quit?

    • Not at all. We discussed this long ago, and consensus was that GS was the asshole, and you IIRC agreed. I suppose I could google it out.

      I don’t recall, but that’s certainly possible. I heard an amazing homily on the PS this spring that influenced my thinking.

  • Anacaona

    Not at all. We discussed this long ago, and consensus was that GS was the asshole, and you IIRC agreed. I suppose I could google it out.
    You need to remember that every generation redefine their ‘heroes’ I’m sure older people wouldn’t find the GS as bad more like a reminder that the good people shouldn’t be envious of the ones that suffered before found salvation. Is very likely that after the party the idiot I mean the prodigal son had to start all over again while his brother was consoled by his riches and position. Heck maybe the brother ended up working under him.
    The party was a moment of joy and to show the prodigal son that he had a chance to start all over again not signing away the brother’s riches or making him command of his flocks. I don’t think the GS was an asshole he was probably confused why his father never showed him this level of joy but then the GS never lost a son so he probably wouldn’t understand it at the moment.
    I like to think he got it when his father explained and went back to hug his brother and started to make plans for him to start to enjoy the family life he left behind, YMMV.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “You’ll have to forgive, but I do not understand the concept of divorcing the negative consequences from the action. Even guys who have hangovers the next day will say “oh god, I should not have drank that much last night,” not “it was quite awesome to drink that much and I do not regret any of it but I do regret the hangover the next day. Please do not judge me for my alcoholism.””

    Hypothetical guess as to why;

    Boomers. Actions followed by consequences were less of an issue for them in general than every other generation that has ever lived.

    Ex. Someone posted a comment (which Susan endorsed) which basically went along the lines of ‘boomer women were able to proudly declare their feminist ideals but still ended up in motherhood.’
    Note: Not applying this to only women.

    • Ex. Someone posted a comment (which Susan endorsed) which basically went along the lines of ‘boomer women were able to proudly declare their feminist ideals but still ended up in motherhood.’

      I was referring to gender equity there, not radical feminist notions. Most women still proudly declare those ideals, and most will marry.

  • Lokland

    “But so many fun stories! Nuclear IOI girl apparently thought another guy in the office liked her. Why? Because whenever we went out to lunch, she wouldn’t finish her food and this other guy would.”

    I should be married to 99% of every female friend or close acquaintance I have ever had.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, Nick’s judgment on Cesare Borgia is highly qualified. You cannot take Prince 7 as the last word. Compare, for instance, Prince 11. And also Discourses I 38, II 24 and III 27.

    • Susan, Nick’s judgment on Cesare Borgia is highly qualified. You cannot take Prince 7 as the last word. Compare, for instance, Prince 11. And also Discourses I 38, II 24 and III 27.

      Are you serious? You know perfectly well I’m not good for more than the occasional throwaway line on philosophy! And I’m off to the gym 😛 !!!

  • Escoffier

    Susan, if you have a moment, look up Rousseau, Social Contract, Book 3, Ch. 6, n. 1.

    • Susan, if you have a moment, look up Rousseau, Social Contract, Book 3, Ch. 6, n. 1.

      I must be doing something wrong – that appears to compare forms of government?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t recall, but that’s certainly possible. I heard an amazing homily on the PS this spring that influenced my thinking.

    Well share dammit! 😛
    I do enjoy a homily but Catholic mass is rather difficult to get through. It was also highly annoying to go see every child pick Francis as their confirmation name because he could talk to animals.
    My girlfriend’s brother picked Doubting Thomas.

    My impression is that sin is basically living a dead, graceless death and the return to a proper life is an event worthy of celebration. Of course the rest of us might look at it as having your cake and eating it too and celebrating someone who has no right to be celebrated, which I would think is a normal human instinct.
    But if it were so easy to understand no one would have needed to come up with the parable in the first place, would they?

    @ Lokland

    Hypothetical guess as to why;

    Boomers. Actions followed by consequences were less of an issue for them in general than every other generation that has ever lived.

    Ex. Someone posted a comment (which Susan endorsed) which basically went along the lines of ‘boomer women were able to proudly declare their feminist ideals but still ended up in motherhood.’
    Note: Not applying this to only women.Hypothetical guess as to why;

    My guess would also to be that an attack on someone’s past mistakes can all too often be mistaken by that person for an attack on their character. And they will defend their ego to the death. Because losing the ego IS death.

    Also of interest, unrelated, slightly sad note, I saw this while going on linking spree (starting with Community’s season finale):
    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

    It is funny she mentions bowling, because I had the same exact experience bowling with my family one time. Felt nothing. Got angry that I felt nothing. Pissed at myself for sucking at bowling.

    Ended up getting yelled at, of course…

    • @ADBG

      My impression is that sin is basically living a dead, graceless death and the return to a proper life is an event worthy of celebration. Of course the rest of us might look at it as having your cake and eating it too and celebrating someone who has no right to be celebrated, which I would think is a normal human instinct.

      Yes, a typical and understandable human response would be to focus on good works and resent the father’s rewarding the selfish and hedonist brother. Jesus understands very well that’s how anyone would be likely to feel. Jesus tells the story not about this life, but the next. He told the thief on the cross next to him that he would be in paradise that day. Redemption is available to all – even those who spend their lives sinning, if they seek forgiveness and mercy. God does not dwell on the sin, but restores the full relationship of love if asked. Jesus focuses on saving the greatest number of people – not on the timetable or on good works. Every soul saved is a cause for celebration. The father reassures the good brother – you are always with me and everything I have is yours – but your brother was dead and is alive again. Meaning that the brother was a sinner, apart from God, and not bound for everlasting life. Now he has repented, and is saved. This is something joyous to celebrate.

  • Escoffier

    J, your question answers itself. If the hypothetical person’s conversion is genuine, then of course he will think that he could and should have lived a better life. The wreckage behind him will not be improved by his sincerity, however.

    My point is not about the afterlife, over which we have little control–beyond, that is, how we live in this life. It is to some extent about individual souls but to a much large extent I am talking about how we live in this life.

    To be blunt, we live in a ridiculously permissive age. Anything anyone wants to do has a whole arsenal of justifications behind it. And armies of people stand ready to attack anyone who objects. And then twin industries–one secular, the other “religious”–at the ready to help anyone excuse whatever he’s already done and make him feel better about himself. So we have, at the front end, massive encouragement to do the things for which repentance is necessary and then at the back end, a forgiveness-industrial complex to make sure you don’t feel about it and to encourage others to get in on the act–because we’re doing all we can here to minimize the consequences!

    So the idea that what is needed in 2013 is more “compassion” or “understanding” of human “frailty” strikes me akin to saying that what was needed during the Inquisition or in Cromwell’s England was tighter control on modes of worship and stronger community standards for punishing heretics and non-conformists.

    The only reason(s) why the whole rotten system has not crashed is because–so far–technology and the economy of plenty have insulated us from the consequences of our bad choices. Whether that can go on forever is an open question. I can tell you this, the founder-thinkers who brought us technology and the economy of plenty argued strongly that their perpetuation depends on our virtue. Not, to be sure, virtue in the classical sense, what is required in modern times is quite a bit lower than that. But nonetheless, they believed it would be required and by the standards they laid out, we don’t have it. We no longer even know what it is. To the extent that we do, we attack and ridicule it.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Escoffier.

    England, it seems, had at least two periods where it could have fallen apart socially and politically. One was the Restoration and the other the Regency.
    There’s a reason so many romance novels are set in those periods.
    As the first went on, we came to Methodism (“methody”). Wesley is supposed to have said, “get all you can, give all you can, save all you can”).
    This is good advice. Among other things, you’ll be in better shape than the guy who bets the estate on a drunken card game. You’ll be staying out of trouble; bastardy, divorce, duels, STDs. Due to having money unencumbered by, say, gambling debts, the lower middle class rose to be the upper middle class and, having the money, becoming attractive to the titled near-paupers living on their estates and bankers.
    Ditto the Regency, with the lower middle class going all Victorian and moving upwards for the same reasons. Including marrying into titled families, bringing money for titles. The landed aristocracy was no longer the descendants of Norman fighting men or loot-lucky veterans of the Hundred Years War.
    But, as you point out, the objective penalties of license were more…objective then.
    See, kind of a riff on this, Magnet’s “The Dream and The Nightmare”. His point is that the upper classes who claim people should do what feels good have an anchor to windward; money, education, connections, etc. The lower classes don’t, and suffer accordingly and predictably. But it’s judgmental and prudish and blue-nosed and repressive to predict it.
    A guy named Dalrymple wrote something similar about the UK.

  • Wuznanê-deirwy

    i hav haed an epifanny : to safdeuce a sexy barguks bargurl yooo mast communist her makeupp !!!

  • Liz

    @Mirielle

    I don’t know why people get so hung up on price discrimination, in any case it means people are adapting to their market, which everybody should do if they want to get something or somewhere.

    It’s almost as if they’d prefer that some of us just continue the unrestricted strategy (if you believe it’s intentional) or the merely clueless one (if you think it’s not intentional).
    I had to learn to take things more slowly, and believe me, there aren’t many “alphas” in my past.
    I’m not asking for a “higher price,” I’m investing more of MY time as well.
    This reeks a little of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

  • szopen

    @escoffier

    the extreme, yet illustrative, case would be a Catholic who sins his whole life and then confesses on his death bed. Enjoy a lifetime of sin, get into heaven.

    Confession is not a magic ritual. If you do not really repent and do not regret, then the confession means nothing. Now, I am not catholic, but I was, so I am not talking totally out of my a* here.

    @Price discrimination etc
    Let’s first agree here that we are not talking about the logic. There is nothing logical about feelings. For me, hypothetically speaking since I was already two decades after this could mean anything, nothing could be more offensive and nothing could hurt me more than the phrase “I slept around with other guys, but I won’t with you because I love you so much and I do not want to spoil it”. I could accept, however, and still hypothetically, a girl with a “past” who changed a long time before she met me.

    I accept that the girls may not understand this, but I can’t accept anyone who would tell me that I should be ashamed for this feeling, or that I should act on this feeling.

  • *compliment* … this preaching text thong thingy on my phone is working wanders to my soar balls … brains … brats … buttocks … Fornication … Will someone please develop a spelling application that is idi amin proof !!!

  • szopen

    @Liz
    It’s not about the logic. There is nothing logical in it, though you could post-factum invent some logically-sounding explanations. I bet that most guys would agree logically, when reasoning about someone else, that there is nothing wrong with that. I bet that most guys doesn’t care about that if you won’t somehow trigger some tiny little switch inside their heads. And there may be a lot of guys who just wouldn’t care. But still, they are those, who do care and cannot do anything about the fact, that they care.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “re you thinking,

    “HEH, scammed you all!” or
    “I just totally wasted my life. It could have been SO much more.””

    Interesting. Your God seems interested in ruining multiple peoples lives in an attempt to teach an individual a lesson or at least that is what I gather from your example?

    In the example you stated. I’d prefer god to smite the prick and prevent the pain and frustration caused to others rather than god having his ‘gotcha!’ moment at the pearly gates.

    Similarly, when a woman attempts to hamsterize past dalliances into mistakes I would rather she just not and carry about her merry way. Not because I want her to experience any pain but because I do not want men (including myself) to experience the pain and frustration of having to deal with such a person.

    As an extension, I’d prefer a woman approach it like Sassy and own it and say she has changed. Whining about mistakes and how judgement is unfair is less trust inducing than stating clearly that one has changed from their past.

    (Note: I would find neither acceptable but I would at least respect one over the other.)

  • Lokland

    @Sue

    “I was referring to gender equity there, not radical feminist notions. Most women still proudly declare those ideals, and most will marry.”

    No worries I got that part.
    Just saying that the pursuit of ones career ceaselessly still allowed many woman in your age cohort to have it all whereas that is less likely now because of the economic decline.

    Ex. I suspect the number of IVF pregnancies is going to decrease as wages continue to drop/ inflation continues to outpace growth but the number of woman pushing late age will rise.

    Just a guess and one I really don’t want people to have to experience.

    • @Lokland

      Just saying that the pursuit of ones career ceaselessly still allowed many woman in your age cohort to have it all whereas that is less likely now because of the economic decline.

      Agreed.

  • doomwolf

    @Anacona #659
    In the Tim Keller book I mentioned above, he talks about how the GS is the personification of the pharisees, the idea that if you do a really, really, really good job at following the rules then you’re automatically better than everyone else who doesn’t follow the rules as well as you do. The GS isn’t necessarily a bad person, but he needs an attitude adjustment and the ability to show some joy/compassion. That said, if I got thrown into the story as him, I’d probably still be a bit miffed about my feckless brother getting a party; it’s hard to remove judgement from the human heart.

    @ADBG #667
    Chris Hedges writes in one of his books about working in an inter-city church about how, in the truest sense of the word, living “in hell” is when you are so consumed with hate, anger, and bitterness that, even when people try to reach out and show you kindness you can’t accept it. Would this match up with your ideas at all?

  • Escoffier

    szopen, we already covered that possibility. Suppose you *really* repent. Great! You still got to have all that fun sin. You don’t have to give any of it back.

    Meanwhile the poor sucker over to the right here who lived a virtuous life of struggle get exactly the same reward as you.

    That’s the heart of the issue here. What some are describing as “mistakes” are in fact “good times.” If there is no incentive not to refrain, or if those incentives are blunted, slackened and degraded, and meanwhile the confessional culture (in the sense of Oprah, not the church) is there to excuse every self indulgence, then we will get more of it. Which, in fact, we are getting.

    • Suppose you *really* repent. Great! You still got to have all that fun sin. You don’t have to give any of it back.

      Maybe it’s projection, but I never believe sinners are having all that much fun. I know for a fact that Dark Triad types – who generally enjoy themselves at the expense of other people – have high rates of depression and dissatisfaction.

      Recently, there’s been a “come to Jesus” moment in the sphere with hard core PUAs confessing they’re miserable. Roosh and now Frost, for example.

  • Jackie

    @OTC/GM

    Well, Esco was talking about the Borgias (Cesare B had more illegitimate kids than anyone in the NBA!), so that’s pretty hardcore. Go big or go home! 😉

    Spiritual abuse of children is a sin, too. There’s a reason why Jesus talked about millstones around the necks and being tossed into the sea for people who do dirt that way. Leaving that sounds like self-preservation to me.

    I would only suggest, OTC, this: Many of us are taught a concept of God –usually a smitey and vengeful kind of one — in an effort to control us through fear.

    We may know this concept of God (and embrace it or reject it), but very few of us are encouraged to have our own experience with God. Knowing a concept of something is not the same thing as experiencing the thing itself.

    Instead of memorizing verses and concepts: If a person was taught to take the truth of scripture into inner meditation and seek their own experience with God. They arrive at a very different place in my experience.

    You could spend a month on a very simple statement about peace, “My peace I give unto you. Not as the world giveth, give I unto you.” (John 14:27) What do we know of peace? What do we know of the kind of peace that the world has? What is this other transcendent kind? How will we know it?

    It is my belief that reading, seeking and taking these questions into contemplation will eventually lead us to our own experience with God. Brother Lawrence called it “practicing the presence” of God. I believe it is the mystery and majestic quest that we are all put on Earth for. Peace, OTC–

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    “Interesting. Your God seems interested in ruining multiple peoples lives in an attempt to teach an individual a lesson or at least that is what I gather from your example?”
    ===
    But LL, how can God “ruin multiple peoples’ lives” when there is free will involved? The King of the Alphas, in my example, ruined the lives. Not God.

    In my example, KotA dies alone and unloved after a wasted life. He only has regrets on his deathbed. God didn’t teach him by example, King of the Alphas learned from consequences to his actions. If God had zapped him with a lightning bolt (or some other smiting mechanism), it would abdicated KotA from responsibility.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    Pardon if I didn’t make this clear.
    I’m thinking about the women whose lives were ruined by the alpha.
    (Note: Do not buy into this meme that women are victims but will play it for now.)

    Is it fair for them to have their lives ruined by said alpha. Why did God not protect them?

    In much the same vein.
    Why is it fair for a woman making past mistakes to repent and come and make my life worse off? Seems unfair for God to make her better at my expense simply because she said sorry whereas I never did any wrong.

  • … ultimately one will respect a person that is willing to suffer IN his religion … for the glory OF his religion … never the persons that is all ABOUT the religion … we respect the martyrs … and never their publicists …

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Esco, first things first: We all know you are the most intellectual one here and you could squash me (or any of us) like a grape! It would be like an NBA star playing against a bunch of 8th graders. So I cannot possibly hope to “win” a debate, change your mind or even refute your points.

    Also: I think we are both on “Team Virtue” here.

    Have you read _Anna Karenina_? You know the scene where Levin is observing the debate between Petrovich (who argues for the old, feudal ways) and Sviyazhsky (who argues for the modern ways, but is actually more old-fashioned in his personal life than ANY of them).

    This is what it feels like, kind of. My parents brought us up with a kind of Spartan discipline of ethics/morals but cut unwavering slack with the rest of the world. (My brother used to bring criminals, actual felons, over for dinner, and my dad was all, NBD, have some pie.)
    ===
    Okay, that said: When has there ever been the practice of virtue by those who preach of it? I wasn’t sure if you were talking about times of antiquity or “Founding Fathers” type. Because, if it’s the latter, those were *unbelievably* complex relationships with virtue. Jefferson, for all his laudability, hooking up with Sally Hemmings and slaves = 2/5. Benjamin Franklin: Horndog and Nudist.

    Secondly, I believe that it has ever been thus. The only difference is that for the first time in history (the last 100+ years) the average person has enough leisure time to get into trouble, the way the privileged upper classes historically have. Before that, I think they were mostly working all the time to keep body and soul together. Idle hands, devil’s business, etc etc.

    I’m not sure why you want to look down on compassion and mercy. Authentic compassion isn’t enabling crap or looking the other way, you know. On the contrary, authentic compassion sees with penetrating insight why you are doing what you are doing and wants better for you. To me, at least.

    Finally (FINALLY!), Esco, I’d be interested in how we can anchor Team Virtue to have a stronger hold here on earth. What are your thoughts for promoting it?

  • BroHamlet

    @Liz

    “It’s almost as if they’d prefer that some of us just continue the unrestricted strategy (if you believe it’s intentional) or the merely clueless one (if you think it’s not intentional).
    I had to learn to take things more slowly, and believe me, there aren’t many “alphas” in my past.
    I’m not asking for a “higher price,” I’m investing more of MY time as well.
    This reeks a little of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.”

    Whether this behavior is intentional or not, it’s natural for guys to question what they’re getting when they date you, and have standards both for what behavior he’s okay with, and to thoroughly consider how much and why you actually value him. I’m of the belief (and this has played out over and over in my dating life), that desire isn’t something you can convince someone to have for you. At the end of the day, if you’re willing to throw caution to the wind with one guy, but not another, the first guy does have more objective value. Now, this does not mean I’m saying girls should just move in a poor direction of decreasing standards out of principle? No, definitely NOT. It means that if I, as a guy, get a glimpse (whether I’m looking for it or not) into your prior behavior or get some sort of tell to what you were like before, and the overall average of what I see today in contrast to then leads me to believe you aren’t congruent with the “relationship girl” face you are putting on for me now, I might not be interested. The solution is pretty simple here- be consistent in your actions and words more often than not. A big part of what you’re seeing the guys discuss re:price discrimination is a direct result of too many girls dropping too many white lies (“I never do this”, “I’m not really looking to date anyone” but in practice being willing to enter an ambiguous situation because they’re attracted to you, etc.), being willing to lie about their “number” (not that I have ever personally asked or wanted to know, but it’s a really common meme to take whatever she’ll admit to and double it), which makes it SEEM like they aren’t on the up and up. Just telling it like it is. Guys wouldn’t be asking these questions if most girls actually had hard and fast standards. Right now many want to SAY they have hard and fast standards for the sake of it sounding good. So guys are adapting to a situation where it’s now a commonly known fact that many women change their standards over time, and it seems to me it’s natural for them to ask questions.

    At the same time, I don’t see a whole lot of these discussions happening in real life- the guys here are probably more aware of culture than most. I’d be curious how many girls here have been called out for “price discrimination” or knew for sure that a guy stopped calling them because he thought he was getting a worse deal than someone else got.

  • Anacaona

    In the Tim Keller book I mentioned above, he talks about how the GS is the personification of the pharisees, the idea that if you do a really, really, really good job at following the rules then you’re automatically better than everyone else who doesn’t follow the rules as well as you do. The GS isn’t necessarily a bad person, but he needs an attitude adjustment and the ability to show some joy/compassion. That said, if I got thrown into the story as him, I’d probably still be a bit miffed about my feckless brother getting a party; it’s hard to remove judgement from the human heart.
    Thank you for this comment. I disagree with his take though. If the GS was a pharisee he would had been thrown out of the house to give his brother his inheritance. The parable decided to address him and reassuring him that his place was not threatened by his sinful brother in spite of the grandeur gesture. Jesus was very harsh to the pharisees and the merchants in the temple. Most people kind of edit that part out God is capable of a good punishment when needed. I always assumed that Jesus lent forgiveness because as Son of God he knew the heart of the sinners and knew that the adulterous woman was really repentant already even before she was caught hence his mercy.The Pharisees? Not so much, YMMV.

    Interesting. Your God seems interested in ruining multiple peoples lives in an attempt to teach an individual a lesson or at least that is what I gather from your example?
    Jackie’s God please. I trust God distributes Justice and Compassion equally and that the victims and the wreckage created by that ‘sinner’ are not abandoned by God for the sake of salvation.

    Now, I am not catholic, but I was, so I am not talking totally out of my a* here.
    What is it with so many Catholics or Ex-Catholics at HUS? I though everyone that spoke English was a heretic Anglican :p

    Ex. I suspect the number of IVF pregnancies is going to decrease as wages continue to drop/ inflation continues to outpace growth but the number of woman pushing late age will rise.
    Adoption will become more widespread then.

  • Man

    I was referring to gender equity there, not radical feminist notions. Most women still proudly declare those ideals, and most will marry.

    For me gender equity means: respecting men’s needs and opinions and acknowledging we are different. For most women gender equity means a free pass to an amusement park in life and love (at least in their fantasy world). So if at the least the woman doesn’t proudly endorses feminism, then perhaps a compromise is possible. But I often find women who seem more concerned to endorse and defend feminism than to take care of their own lives and grow as women.

  • Lokland

    As an add on to my last comment.

    A woman (or man) stating that a woman who has repented (or not and just altered path) as acceptable is trying to offer that woman goodness at the expense of the man in question.

    Two analogies of advice directed towards women that offer the man benefit at the expense of the woman.

    1. I understand you really want a relationship but you need to wait for him to get it out of his system. Part of being a guy is sowing the oats without that he isn’t ready for marriage. Even if you don’t want to hook up randomly thats all you can have until the guy is ready. He will be just as good as any other guy at being a husband. (Essentially the cultural message that Susan is combating.)

    2. He may not be particularly attractive too you (short, bald, fat etc.) but he will be an excellent provider and father. You should marry him despite his obvious deficiencies in areas you value. He will be just as good as any other guy at being a husband.

  • Jackie

    @LL

    Lokland, I am not sure if I can answer these questions to your satisfaction, but I’ll do my best! 🙂

    “Is it fair for them to have their lives ruined by said alpha. Why did God not protect them?”
    ===
    Lokland, I have spent most of my life thinking about this one. Why did so many people die on me? Why does my heritage include evil people who harmed me? Why do I *still* struggle with bouts of crippling depression and feelings of worthlessness? It seems so incredibly unfair.

    Why did God not protect those hypothetical women from the hypothetical sociopath Alpha, or keep the women in Cleveland from being abducted? How can God stand by when there is so much suffering?

    I wish I could give you a pat answer, but in my experience that would not be true, fair or honest.

    I think we are put here to learn lessons, develop compassion and to grow spiritually. Some lessons are very, very hard. But those incredibly difficult lessons also give the most knowledge and awareness.

    Yesterday I told someone that I wished I could have been born “dumb and hot” 😛 because I wouldn’t have to suffer much. But the sufferings I have had, made me grow in understanding and ability.

    The person I said that to, we were talking about the Allie Brosh cartoon about depression (Hyperbole and a Half). I said that I had struggled with this for a really long time. Just matter of factly, and that it was something I’m always going to have to keep working on, probably.

    When I said that, this person broke down and started crying in my arms. They said they had lost their 20s to this. Just being in the presence of experience and compassion with this was enough to crack through a very brittle shell they had been carrying around for years.

    In other words, the lessons we learn from healing from the pain can also teach, benefit and help others. That is how we grow spiritually, I think.

    Lokland, I wish I knew enough to understand God’s plans. If I created Earth it would be all ice cream that you would never have to burn off the calories and cats that would live forever (no Rainbow Bridge).

    I wish there were no suffering in this world. That is what we are put on Earth to help with, I think: Alleviate suffering, grow and learn lessons.
    ===
    In much the same vein.
    Why is it fair for a woman making past mistakes to repent and come and make my life worse off? Seems unfair for God to make her better at my expense simply because she said sorry whereas I never did any wrong.
    ===
    Well, you wouldn’t have to have her in your life if she would make it worse! I don’t think God did it “at your expense”! 😉 I do observe, though, that people who have made mistakes and sincerely repented have gained compassion and understanding from their experience that “perfect” people very often seem to lack.

    My 0.02. Peace, Lokland–

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, despite being conventional wisdom for the past 20 years or so, the Sally Hemmings thing is at best not proved. Even if it could be proved, what it would “prove” escapes me. Great figures of the past committed immoral acts? Well, that’s hardly news. And what are we to conclude from that? That there is no virtue because every great figure can be shown to have had feet of clay? Or worst of all, to have been a “hypocrite”! The only sin left in our times …

    Regarding virtue more broadly, in our time, the genuine virtues of Aristotle’s Ethics are nowhere to be seen (I exaggerate slightly). The lesser modern virtues are attenuated to the point of near extinction. It is true, as Aubrey suggests, that in the past virtue has waxed and waned, that immoral societies have remoralized themselves. It is possible. I see no sign of it now. However, necessity is harsh mistress and she may yet intrude on us in very exacting fashion.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Liz,

    I’m not asking for a “higher price,” I’m investing more of MY time as well.

    Excellent answer! You’re demanding a higher price but offering a higher quality product. That’s a mutual win.

  • Man

    About the ultimate “price discrimination” standoff (see #605), I will teach women how to handle that if she is not virgin or if she has a promiscuous past:

    1. Avoid talking about your past relationships as much as possible (it’s best if you never tell him how many partners you’ve had).
    2. Act and dress in a way that you convey the message for him that you are very hard to get to all men out there except him.
    3. Blow his mind in bed.
    4. Often reassure him of your attraction and love for him.

    Doing that, over time he won’t even care about your past, provided you don’t discuss that.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man 691,

    #1. I would never have married my wife if she had been evasive on her sexual past. I would be left wondering what terrible thing she was hiding.

    Honest is best. Answer candidly but without unnecessary elaboration. If your sexual past is a problem for him, then that’s a problem for the relationship.

    I think most men who are interested in a relationship and aren’t looking for reasons to disqualify you will be happy with a woman whose sexual experience is similar to their own.

  • BroHamlet

    @Mr. Wavevector, Liz

    “I’m not asking for a “higher price,” I’m investing more of MY time as well.”

    “Excellent answer! You’re demanding a higher price but offering a higher quality product. That’s a mutual win.”

    Not to be a dick, but time is perhaps the one thing that is always offered by both parties in a dating situation where both people are attracted to each other. Liz, I’m not calling you out, but you’ve got to realize that a guy spending his time and a whole lot more is implicit in dating in the traditional sense, so saying that you’ll spend time doesn’t automatically make the product of “higher quality” unless your time is somehow worth more than his. I tend to believe that women who who post here aren’t typical and are enlightened to this, so just know that I assume the best about your reasons for saying what you said. But I wouldn’t go saying something like this as if it’s proof that you’re somehow making things even or offering something better than the norm. Fact of the matter is, it’s not just about the time.

  • Mr WV #690

    … never underestimate what we will do … what we will ignore … what we will risk … and what we will justify …

    … not to be lonely …

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Y’know Esco, I think context plays a role. I was talking with my beloved father yesterday and somehow Watergate came up. He said now we’re used to hypocrisy and “dirty tricks” but at the time, it was a HUGE deal.

    He said that no one (the general public) had any idea that JFK was this total philanderer cheating on Jackie all the time, or that MLK was, or that politicians did corrupt things to the degree that we do today.

    I think the raging hangups with hypocrisy may have something to do with that. (I read that people used to have pics of JFK on their walls along with Jesus!) Trust takes a long time to be regained after finding out stuff like that.

    You appear to be quite curmudgeonly today, which is too bad, and I notice you neglected to answer my question. 🙁 (“How we can promote virtue?”) I guess I will have to answer it myself: We should start living — unashamedly — more virtuous lives, whenever possible.

    I will have to read more about Aristotle to understand what you are talking about. I’m sorry you don’t have more intellectual foils around here, Esco! But I will start my practice today. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    We should all always try to live as virtuously as we can. This is valuable in and of itself. But we should not delude ourselves that by doing so we have more than a marginal impact on society at large.

    “How to promote virtue” is a very large question and there does not seem to be any easy way. It may even be that the promotion of virtue requires a level of harshness that the intellectual climate today is not comfortable discussing, much less enacting.

    In any case, one way to promote virtue would be to achieve clarity as to what it is and what it is not, and then speak frankly about it. Our modern confessional culture is therefore an obstacle to be overcome.

  • szopen

    @escoffier
    But you cannot plan to repent. You cannot decide “now I will regret”. The thing must be genuine. And if you a priori plan “now I will have fun, and i will regret it later” then it seems to me fairly unlikely that you will succeed. Also, if you think that “wow, I had great time, then I regretted and I got to heaven, so I won” then you don’t really regret.

  • szopen

    When has there ever been the practice of virtue by those who preach of it?

    Kosciusko. He was given the slaves and he immedietely freed them.

    @Anacaona

    What is it with so many Catholics or Ex-Catholics at HUS? I though everyone that spoke English was a heretic Anglican :p

    Either because the host is catholic, or there is something in catholic upbringing which makes people to talk about things like whether repenting over past mistakes is enough to undo those mistakes.

  • Escoffier

    It doesn’t have to be planned. I repeat, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that person A has all the fun and repents, while person B lives a life of virtue and toil. Same reward. In fact, some will despise B as a prude or whatever while A will showered with honors his whole life, and then garner additional honors for his repentance. Win/win.

    And, even if this strategy is not planned, who’s to say what’s at work in the subconscious. So long as we know there is an “out” we are apt to be more lenient with ourselves.

    We live in lenient times and it seems as though people are always looking for ways to make them more lenient. Hence “mistakes.”

  • szopen

    @escoffier
    But if a person A really repent and really regrets, then from his/her point of view she does not “win” by first sinning, then repenting, quite the contrary (otherwise, he/she wouldn’t be regretting). So, it’s hard to argue that this is a win/win strategy.

  • Jackie

    @esco

    Two quick things, Esco, before I head out:

    “We should all always try to live as virtuously as we can. This is valuable in and of itself. But we should not delude ourselves that by doing so we have more than a marginal impact on society at large.”
    ===
    But what about the parable of the mustard seed? The loaves and fishes? Aren’t we supposed to put our faith in God, instead of prognosticating “marginal” results?

    2) Isn’t virtue its own reward? Someone who is virtuous is not going to efeel like they totally missed out, especially when you look at the fallout of shennanigans (ie the “price of vice”: constant STI testing, inability to trust, distance from God).

    Lastly, Esco, isn’t it kind of fascinating that we hold the same values, yet we see this age so differently? You see it as teeming with vice and on the brink of toppling systemic collapse. I see, despite the constant prude shaming, we live lives that would have been miracles to prior generations.

    Imagine what Tchaikovsky or Mozart would think of youtube, MP3s and iPods! (They used to have 6-hour concerts back then, since that was ALL the music they would get until the next composition debuted.) We can find *anything* on the internet, almost instantly! We are having this discussion in a way that could have never occurred in antiquity. We have AC, garbage disposals, washing machines, ice makers, airplanes…

    So weird to think we’re both talking about the same society. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    szopen, from society’s perspective, it’s a sure loser. As it must appear to all butt he most pious sucker, that is, lifelong virtuous one who never got to have the fun.

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, our technological “miracles” are of questionable value when compared to the true heights that humanity is capable of. The twin peaks of modernity are mass consumerism and theoretical physics (and its bastard child, the thermonuclear warhead). You have to ask yourself, what have we given up for all this stuff? Also, what does all this stuff do to us, to our souls, to our ability to reach the true peaks of human excellence?

    Ancient and medieval philosophers were aware of the possibility of “techne” (that is, placing the highest emphasis on the use of ingenuity to answer human needs) but concluded it was a bad idea. Around 500 years ago, the philosophers went in a different direction. However, it would appear that the ancient warnings had some merit.

    Re: virtue being its own reward, that is Glaucon’s challenge to Socrates in the Republic. Prove that the man who is virtuous in every respect but tortured in every way by fortune is happier than the perfectly unjust man with a reputation for perfect justice; i.e., the criminal who not only always gets away with it but is honored and praised. Note that Socrates is unable to prove this.

    The virtues which are truly always choice worthy for their own sake alone are the intellectual virtues, which gets at what I was saying about the peaks of humanity.

  • Man

    Honest is best. Answer candidly but without unnecessary elaboration. If your sexual past is a problem for him, then that’s a problem for the relationship.

    I think most men who are interested in a relationship and aren’t looking for reasons to disqualify you will be happy with a woman whose sexual experience is similar to their own.

    Just wanted to point out how her past can have a heavy psychological toll on them and most of them do not even realize. By the way, an “unrestricted” woman can have much more partners than most men she will ever met simply because for women it’s much easier to get sex.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Man,

    Just wanted to point out how her past can have a heavy psychological toll on them and most of them do not even realize. By the way, an “unrestricted” woman can have much more partners than most men she will ever met simply because for women it’s much easier to get sex.

    The data that I’ve seen (mostly stuff Susan has posted) shows the N for both men and women to be similar and surprisingly low for most young men and young women. Most of these people will still have single digit N’s by the time they marry.

    I think there is a psychological toll to serial monogamy – breakups are hard and leave emotional scars. That applies to men as well as women. That’s one reason not to postpone marriage indefinitely.

    It may be theoretically easier for women to get sex, but as you pointed out in another post, they don’t, because they don’t find most guys terribly attractive.

  • Escoffier

    Re: Rousseau, should be a discussion of Machiavelli and his “execrable hero”, Cesare Borgia.

  • Richard Aubrey

    I don’t follow the PUA sphere. I read the ads–kind of tough choice about spilling your candy in the lobby and retaining enough unknown to get the guys to pay for the rest.
    About the best I can say from that limited point of view is the constant advice to make yourself a better man; get a life, etc.
    If it’s all in pursuit of getting yourself tons of beautiful girls in bars and clubs…yeah, maybe the accomplishment isn’t all that. I mean, if you’re a permanent loser, it would look like paradise, since attaining it would not only mean the tons of beautiful girls….but also that you’re no longer a loser.

  • You have to ask yourself, what have we given up for all this stuff? Also, what does all this stuff do to us, to our souls, to our ability to reach the true peaks of human excellence?

    Internet (noun): 1) a vast computer network linking smaller computer networks worldwide; 2) the most ironic place of all to express Neo-Luddite sentiments.

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “Maybe it’s projection, but I never believe sinners are having all that much fun.”

    A little sin goes a long way.

    Here we go again with the idea that “swimming in sin” is any different than little bit of it. A perfectly monogamous LTR between two n=1 people is still sin. And they are certainly having more fun, than those who were fooled into chastity.

    As for PUAs, the idea of maximizing N for N’s sake baffles me, and seems almost pathological. Surely, if they were any good at attracting and keeping anyone of they, you wouldn’t have a sky-high N. Anyone worth banging once, surely is good enough for a few years! I can see an n of 10-20, lifetime max, as being more than enough variety for any man. I’m getting close. 😉

    • @Gin Martini

      I can see an n of 10-20, lifetime max, as being more than enough variety for any man. I’m getting close.

      Uh oh. Calling Jackie!

      I assume this means you anticipate additional sexual partners, even though you are a happily married father of three?

  • Gin Martini

    Hmm, I just posted the same comment twice, and it disappeared both times with no warning. I figured the first time was my mistake. If it’s in moderation, please pick the first one.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, there is a deep, innate human desire to wish that all who sin somehow get theirs (Romans 12:19).

    I am sure that many do but also reasonably sure that many don’t.

    In any case, the question is not so much the final disposition of any individual soul as what incentives we put in place in the here and now. Our therapeutic, confessional culture–combined with a basically libertarian politics when it comes to individual pleasures (though not to anything else)–is an encouragement to sin. It might be great for one reason or another if the cosmic ledgers were all evened out in the end, but so long as that “balancing of the books” remains non-evident to the vast majority, it will have no effect on present behavior.

    • Our therapeutic, confessional culture–combined with a basically libertarian politics when it comes to individual pleasures (though not to anything else)–is an encouragement to sin. It might be great for one reason or another if the cosmic ledgers were all evened out in the end, but so long as that “balancing of the books” remains non-evident to the vast majority, it will have no effect on present behavior.

      I agree about the culture, but I also believe that most people aren’t cut out for hedonism (though they may try it for a time, e.g. hooking up). And those that are would find a way to sin regardless of the permissiveness of the culture.

  • Esco…”You have to ask yourself, what have we given up for all this stuff? Also, what does all this stuff do to us, to our souls, to our ability to reach the true peaks of human excellence? Ancient and medieval philosophers were aware of the possibility of “techne” (that is, placing the highest emphasis on the use of ingenuity to answer human needs) but concluded it was a bad idea.”

    A fair question..but you should also also ask what it did to the souls of those ancient and medieval philosophers to live in a society which was based (in the ancient case) on human slavery or (in the medieval case) on an rigid class structure.

    What peaks of human excellence could be reached by the Greek or Roman slave or even by the medieval peasant?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Chris Hedges writes in one of his books about working in an inter-city church about how, in the truest sense of the word, living “in hell” is when you are so consumed with hate, anger, and bitterness that, even when people try to reach out and show you kindness you can’t accept it. Would this match up with your ideas at all?

    Possibly. I do not know, to be honest with you. For me, the great bleak grey depression the author described was indeed most of the day, while the only emotions that stood out were extreme sadness and anger. And there was no moderation in either of those: once one pebble trembled, the entire mountain collapsed.
    That definitely was living in hell. Grey bleak seemed like a pleasure compared to that…

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ WV

    Excellent answer! You’re demanding a higher price but offering a higher quality product. That’s a mutual win.

    and

    @ Man

    3. Blow his mind in bed.
    4. Often reassure him of your attraction and love for him.

    No reason these can’t be effective as long as the man is able to believe it.

  • doomwolf

    Ouch. I take it you’ve recovered* since?

    *if that’s the word to use

  • @D. Foster
    Yes, good points. Beginning in Sumeria c.a. 4,000 B.C. up until the Industrial Revolution ~ 1760, the average man’s lot in life? Slave, serf, poor farmer. For the average woman? Add to that housewife, baby-maker.

  • Bully

    Bit late to the “preparing for death” thread again, but I finally saw Iron Man 3 and god damn did both Gwyneth and RDJ look fantastic for their ages. RDJ looked a little craggy at times but he’s pushing 50 and still looked great. Gwyneth is 40 and holy hell was she hot, and considering I’m a “manospherian” that’s saying a lot. I know they were heavily made up for the movie, etc, but you can’t make-up bodies like they had.

    Trust me, neither of them looked like they had one foot in the grave.

    Pretty sure with attention to nutrition, diet, exercise, and potentially hormone therapy (if needed) it’s not too hard to age as gracefully as they are.

  • J

    Maybe it’s projection, but I never believe sinners are having all that much fun.

    Most of what the various religions call sinful generally hurts self or others.

    I know for a fact that Dark Triad types – who generally enjoy themselves at the expense of other people – have high rates of depression and dissatisfaction.

    Most psychologists would agree. I would think that the desire to hurt others is a reaction to emotional pain.

    Recently, there’s been a “come to Jesus” moment in the sphere with hard core PUAs confessing they’re miserable. Roosh and now Frost, for example.

    Very unsurprising really.

    There’s something interesting I’ve noticed albout game bloggers that correlates with all this. The most sucessful are “cruelty artists” as one commenter on one of those blogs once referred to his host. They like being nasty and snarky. They like being cruel to commenters they perceive as weak. They tend to be angry, call names, and tell people off. Many of these guys remind me of the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. They try to appear “great and powerful” but ask us to “ignore the man behind the curtain.”

  • Anacaona

    Yes, good points. Beginning in Sumeria c.a. 4,000 B.C. up until the Industrial Revolution ~ 1760, the average man’s lot in life? Slave, serf, poor farmer. For the average woman? Add to that housewife, baby-maker.
    THIS. I agree with Esco in many points but calling the ‘good old days’ the pinacle of our species means that we should have a small circle of really powerful people ruling with iron fist the rest of the population that was kept illiterate and in an effective class system. This thinkers were rare and in between.
    In contrast I disagree with Jackie in many things but I do agree with her that we live in a time of wonders that most of those thinkers would had envied and that is at the reach of the most people ever in history. Problem is that most people don’t use our wonders to find most wisdom but to indulge in more sin “Vanity, Pride, Avarice…” You can say that we are not different than Adam and Eve, even in the middle of Paradise and yet we still want more and the serpent tempt us in every way to give us something better, and so we go on forever…

  • J

    @Esco

    I wrote and lost a longish response to you on forgiveness, and it seems to have disappeared into cyberpace. I’ll try to reconstruct it tomorrow.

    @Jackie

    I fully agree with your criticism of PJ’s sniping on the Abrahamic faiths and wish she’d knock that off. That said, pre-Vatican II Catholocism did have a negative view of sexuality that you are too young to have experienced. My husband recalls counting the swipes with a washcloth he made on his genitalia as a junior highschooler because the teaching brothers told him more than three was “self-abuse.” If I am brushing my teeth at the sink while he’s in the shower, he will count off for my amusement: “one for the Father, one for the Son, one for the Holy Ghost.”

    • That said, pre-Vatican II Catholocism did have a negative view of sexuality that you are too young to have experienced.

      My father just told me something that floored me. He said that in the era when he married, 1955, Catholics were encouraged, even pressured, to sacrifice intercourse for a full 30 days after the wedding. They were encouraged to forego sex on the wedding night! Can you imagine? I asked him if he did this and he said no way, but that several couples they’d known had done so and joked about it.

      What the hell. He said he thought it was a response to all that sex being about pleasure rather than procreation.

      We need to let priests marry.

  • J

    Pretty sure with attention to nutrition, diet, exercise, and potentially hormone therapy (if needed) it’s not too hard to age as gracefully as they are.

    I’m in my mid-50s and am often mistaken for 39-42. I don’t take any hormones. I see people in their 70s who are still very healthy and active and look the way I recall 50 yos looking when I was a kid. People aren’t aging the way they used to. We Boomers were all better nourished as kids than previous generations.

  • Plain Jain

    3. Blow his mind in bed.
    4. Often reassure him of your attraction and love for him.
    ________

    If you love a man then tell him often and show him regular affection but don’t get too caught up in “blowing his mind in bed”.

    Due to anatomical differences it is the man who is (and should be) more concerned with blowing the woman’s mind in bed.

    Givers, receivers and all that. It makes good biological sense.

  • Bully

    @J – I don’t either, but I haven’t ruled it out as I age further. I’m huge on weightlifting – eventually there will be a point though where the inevitable testosterone decline will make it harder and harder to hold muscle. Based on reviewing the Master’s data for weightlifting (and I assume these guys aren’t juicing) – maximal strength actually rises through the 30s and 40s and peaks in the early 50s. If that happens to me I’ll gladly take whatever I need to keep the train going.

    If it takes a few years off my life, I’m not really sure they’re years I’d want anyhow.

  • Plain Jain

    Man:
    “For me gender equity means: respecting men’s needs and opinions and acknowledging we are different. For most women gender equity means a free pass to an amusement park in life and love (at least in their fantasy world). So if at the least the woman doesn’t proudly endorses feminism, then perhaps a compromise is possible. But I often find women who seem more concerned to endorse and defend feminism than to take care of their own lives and grow as women.”

    — Ladies, next time someone asks you, “are you a Feminist?”. Reply, “Define Feminism for me please”.

  • Escoffier

    Foster, re: slavery, they knew the deal.

    There is a fallacy here, though, i.e., solving problem X necessarily entails accepting problem Y. Or, the only way to get rid of slavery is through mass society. Beyond that, slavery in the West lasted well into the modern era and in parts of the non-West it is still practiced.

  • Esco…”slavery in the West lasted well into the modern era”

    In the United States, it lasted in the part of the country that had rejected industrialization. Supporters of slavery argued that this basically feudalistic organization of society was far better for the development of human virtue than was the North’s market economy.

  • Escoffier

    I think you are probably right that most people are not cut out for a life of hedonism. The problem is that, at the outset, hedonism seems attractive, and the lower “human capital” (virtue) one starts with, the more attractive it seems. The only way to find out whether you’re cut out for it is to indulge–and since lots of people are inclined by (low) nature to give it a shot, the more we encourage that, the more people will try.

    Maybe it would be a better idea if society discouraged, rather than encouraged, the majority who are not cut out for hedonism from taking it up in the first place.

    • Maybe it would be a better idea if society discouraged, rather than encouraged, the majority who are not cut out for hedonism from taking it up in the first place.

      +1

      This is the reason I hate Sex and the City. It encouraged a whole generation of young women not cut out for hedonism to give it a try.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t think Escof is off about this one. We really don’t have any idea what sort of problems are going to be facing us in the medium-term and those sorts of problems are literally civilization ending (climate change, nuclear war, two case examples).

    As the miscited proverb goes, the Chinese stance on the French Revolution is “too soon to tell.”

    Would happily trade some income for some additional security, at some theoretical trade-off, were such an easy trade possible. It really isn’t, not even in the case of climate change, because limiting your carbon emissions doesn’t limit China’s.

    There is also the difficulties of economic transformation into a post-industrial, post demographic change world, coupled with the difficulties of a consensus based political system that’s well-entrenched.

    Or, basically speaking…

    Japan.

    Huge amount of domestic savings with no place to put them, not enough Japanese, and a political system that’s so resistant to real change that it’s taken DECADES for their political order to finally shake up.

  • Gin Martini

    Heh, just being salacious.

    No, I don’t anticipate much more, unless I suddenly become a widower. Then again, it’s a lot higher than it used to be. But I already got raked over the coals for that.

    The point (probably lost, sigh) was higher is not necessarily better, unless your N is really low. A very high N may mean an inability to find or retain quality people, or some sort of mental issue I don’t want.

    Even if I never married in the first place, knowing what I know now, I probably would stick to 10-20 at most.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Gin Martini

    So that does mean that you have an open marriage?

    Is it 1-way open or dual?

  • Jackie

    @Esco, MM, DF

    Re: Luddites vs Now

    Esco, I’d be interested in hearing about the peaks of human excellence– how do you envision this?

    I had a historian tell me that being a prole/peasant/average joe nowadays trumps being royalty from days past, any day of the week. Indoor plumbing– enough said! 😎

    The people I have observed who invoke a desire to go back to the past always seem to think they will be the ones in charge! (Maybe that’s just my experience, though.) There was an even smaller percentage of the super-elite back then and unless you have some impeccable bloodline heritage to the throne, I’m pretty sure you would have a very, very difficult life.

    Esco, if you could go back to antiquity (or, era of your choice), but you had to do so *as a woman*, would you still want to go? I’d be interested in your perspective on this. 😉

  • Gin Martini

    No, it’s definitely not open. But I think I’ll keep that detail out of this thread, lest anyone reading from the top get very, very confused.

  • Jackie

    @J
    “There’s something interesting I’ve noticed albout game bloggers that correlates with all this. The most sucessful are “cruelty artists” as one commenter on one of those blogs once referred to his host. They like being nasty and snarky. They like being cruel to commenters they perceive as weak. They tend to be angry, call names, and tell people off. Many of these guys remind me of the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. They try to appear “great and powerful” but ask us to “ignore the man behind the curtain.”
    ===
    Excellent summation, as usual, J. 🙂

    Your comment brought to mind the story of “violentacrez” — one of the most reviled trolls on Internet who inflicted TONS of misery and disgusting things (incl. sex with his stepdaughter)– who was revealed to be schlumpy middle-aged man, begging for the mercy he never extended. At the update, I believe he was fired from his job and forced to move in with his disabled wife’s mother.

    Fascinating to see what lies beneath…

    http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Re: Slavery

    Esco, slavery –particularly child slavery and sex slavery– have numbers as high as it as ever been. Read Benjamin Skinner’s book, A Crime So Monstrous. He’s an awesome Quaker abolitionist who went undercover to pose as a buyer in Haiti, Russia, Eastern European countries to expose modern-day slavery.

    Skinner made a pact that he would never actually buy a slave (just set it up), not even to free them. The story of the retarded girl kept in the Croatian brothel (her owner was willing to trade her for a car) was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever read in my life. 🙁

    A really really great book.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Gin Martini

    Then how have you accrued a few more partners, and anticipate to gain a few more, while still being married?

    Are you and your wife having threesomes then?

  • Gin Martini

    I said I *don’t* anticipate more, but due to previous admissions, it is higher. Jeez.

  • @Ana

    Calling the ‘good old days’ the pinacle of our species means that we should have a small circle of really powerful people ruling with iron fist the rest of the population…

    You’re right, though the 20th C. was the scene of some of the worst experiments in iron-fisted mass political movements, and accompanying bodycounts. But I was thinking more about how basic social development has benefitted the average person over time.

    A couple of things that really stuck in my brain back during Western Civ. in college: For all the Ancient Wisdom and Golden Ages of Knowledge, mankind only thought to invent the non-decorative button (for fastening clothing) around A.D. 1,400! And though his views on the monarchy are antiquated, I always remember what Hobbes wrote about the natural state of man:

    In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently, not culture of the earth, no navigation, nor the use of commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. (Leviathan)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Gin Martini

    Read what you originally wrote. You said that you don’t anticipate “much more”. That means that you foresee the potential of having a few more, but not a lot. I’m only responding to the information that YOU are providing.

    Again, did you gain more partners by having threesomes with your wife?

  • Jackie

    @GM/OTC

    Gin, two quick thoughts:

    1) Whether you are aware of it or not, you are still having a relationship with religion. In the sense that you are still directing a lot of emotional “space” and energy towards it. There is a large part of you still pretty tied up with this. Likewise, you appear to be very invested in believing you are unattractive– another relationship, of sorts, that eats up a bunch of emotional energy.

    (BTW, you are so not alone. I realized that I was having a relationship with my N grandmother — even after she was dead! 😯 )

    For me, I had to do some work to resolve the relationship, and there are still issues that pop up from time to time. I’m not sure how this looks for you; in my case I had to do a lot of reflecting, writing and talking it out. The best analogy is like having to throw up: It feels terrible at the time, but once it’s out of your system you will feel like a million bucks. 😉

    2) I’m not sure if your orientation is poly (and you’ve worked it out with your wife) or your sexuality issues are in reaction to spiritual abuse. If people’s orientations are consensual and non-harmful, I don’t believe it’s possible to change them.

    If your sexuality is reactive due to the abuse — and spiritual abuse IS abuse– it’s something that needs to be healed. (Please, no “Sexual Healing” jokes, OTC!) There is SO much shame and shame-related correlated stuff in religious circles. I think it’s one of those things that people are somehow afraid to talk about, it just gets repressed, and the shame goes deeper…

    Anyway, if this is your case, please think about it. Peace, OTC/Gin–

  • HanSolo

    @ADBG

    You can worry less about climate change. Many recent studies show the sensitivity to doubling CO2 is now more likely in the 1.5-2C range than the previously believed 3C range.

    And the models may just be quite wrong, especially if the current 15-year flat temperatures continue.

  • Wondering

    “A guy who likes you and wants to be in a relationship is going to happily agree to your escalating emotionally when he escalates sexually. Time after time young women have told me that when they finally met the right guy, the DTR took about 30 seconds. Both of them jumped off the high dive together.

    Trust me, that’s the only kind of boyfriend you really want. ”

    This confuses me because I can recall other posts mentioning the importance of giving guys space to think if they need it, that it is common for males to withdraw, etc. Susan, can you explain?

    • @Wondering

      This confuses me because I can recall other posts mentioning the importance of giving guys space to think if they need it, that it is common for males to withdraw, etc. Susan, can you explain?

      If a guy is ambivalent, for any number of reasons, it is a good idea to give him some space, then accept his decision. However, I would recommend delaying sex until he knows what he wants. If he’s ambivalent and you’re having sex, most times he’ll decide he likes the status quo better than commitment.

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, it’s not a question of a golden age (though Machiavelli describes Rome under the Antonines in almost that exact language; D I 10).

    The question is, what is lost and what is gained? It is surely true that we are materially better off than any people ever have been (other planets excluded). But it’s a very simple thing to ask, is materialism everything? A range of thinkers in the past couple of hundred years, we may say beginning with Rousseau, have raised grave doubts about this. Given the discontent all around us (some of it material but some not), these are legitimate questions.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Esco, I see what you mean: It has always seemed supremely ironic to me that the things we use to connect (iPhone, computer, etc) only isolate us more. The things created to save time seem to have sped everything up, so now there is a hamster-wheel quality to frenetic activity, instead of contemplation and time with family.

    Yet, I love all the material things! I just would like guidelines for keeping them in their proper place. To me, sometimes, it feels like The Sorcerer’s Apprentice. Have you read the poem by Goethe, or seen the cartoon with Mickey Mouse as the SA? At the end (SPOILER) the sorcerer had to shut it all down and return to the old ways. 🙁

    What do you think is the answer?

    I will check out that citation– today I’m cooking for my dad. (He gets doubly celebrated, for being an awesome parent and caretaker of my mom when she was sick. Mothers AND Fathers Day! 🙂 )

    Also, I still would be interested if you would take the chance if you had to experience antiquity as a woman. 😉

  • Escoffier

    I had no idea that SA was based on a poem by Goethe. All I know by him is Faust. Thanks for that!

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Pleased to have been of service! :mrgreen:

    Actually, the poem IS Der Zauberlerhling, which is translated as “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” (I guess if you wanted to translate is literally, The Magician’s Trainee. My German translation is pretty crap– it always sounds Yoda-esque.)

    Dude, are you into epic Germanic poetry?!? Did you know that Der Erlkonig is ALSO by Goethe and even freakier/more Germanic (same thing!) I think Goethe was the original hardcore goth– these modern folk are complete posers in comparison!

    It gets even BETTER: Schumann arranged an EPIC lied cycle when he set Erlkonig to music. (Lizst also arranged it for solo piano [super hard part] and Berlioz also orchestrated it. There is, like, an embarrassment of riches of its awesomeness!)

    Wow, Esco, I am really glad we have something in common, even if we disagree about other stuff! 😀

  • Gin Martini

    Fair enough, Jackie. You raise some very good points. I don’t think I devote that much headspace to it. You see it here when it is on-topic, but think I have I cut way back on blog read/comment time lately. But I could be wrong.

    My own attractiveness is that I’m barely average in real life, and I think I’m accepting of that. But *here* I’m in the ugly crowd, since most here on the way right of the curve. Usually I’m just goofing on how high-end HUS is, and reminding people that y’all are on top. Enjoy the view.

    Things probably are a bit reactive. I’m not sure.

    Sassy: no need to cross-examine. If opportunity arises again, I may or may not do so. I try to live in the moment more now, and not plan so damn much, like those boring INTJ people. Woo ESFP!

  • @Ms. Jackie
    Your inquisitive nature is quite endearing. Just keep in mind who you’re asking, and always remember what Janis Joplin once said: Being an intellectual creates a lot of questions and no answers.

  • Gin Martini

    Hm. My posts are disappearing again. I must be hitting some keyword that pushes it into moderation. I made a response, but it might take time to show up.

    • @Gin

      I hadn’t whitelisted your new handle. All fixed.

  • Escoffier

    No, besides Faust I read Songs of Young Werther or something like that, and I remember nothing about it, as you can see, not even the title.

    I do remember Faust though, and think very highly of it. I had on Liszt’s Faust Symphony just the other night.

    I confess that the Germanic song book bores me to tears and I never listen to any of it. I do like Wagner in small doses, unfortunately he only administers massively large doses.

  • Jackie

    @Gin Martini

    Gin/OTC, that’s cool– I notice I have similar issues (in different areas) myself, so that may be why I pay attention to your posts. 🙂

    Re: the “low end stuff”

    OTC, I suffer from low-self-esteem and feeling bad about my appearance. And you know what, I have made up my mind not feed into that garbage anymore. I am NOT going to put myself down, or compare myself to “high end vs low end”:

    I am going to own my attractiveness, own my beauty, acknowledge the good things about me. And it’s not zero sum.

    On the contrary, the more you accept the good things about you, the less resentful/envious you will be of others. And the easier it will be to acknowledge and compliment others. Try it, you’ll like it! 🙂

  • Jackie

    @MegaMan

    Ha ha! Yeah, I kinda doubt Esco is going to engage about gender identity politics of antiquity or even deign to answer a lot of my stuff. That’s okay– in the words of EM Forster, “Only connect,” you know?

    I’m sure we’ll be disagreeing tomorrow, but for now, let the good times roll!

    PS: JJ was also *such* a great musician, but such a sad life. 🙁 Pearl is a GREAT album.

  • Goethe…I recently read his novel Elective Affinities, which I thought was pretty good, and reviewed it here:

    http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/35446.html

    There is also an Italian movie made from the book, with the action moved from Germany to Italy…it’s visually a very beautiful film, worth seeing though not as good as the book….at least one character was miscast/misdirected, IMO, and a sex scene which is absolutely vital to the plot was done so confusingly that people who haven’t read the book might not understand what actually happened.

  • Also for Goethe fans, see my post Advice from Goethe on How to Attract Women.

    He was talking about Weimar in 1828, but some of his observations are applicable to American society today…

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    That’s cool– a little Wagner is MORE than enough for most people. 🙂

    In many ways, he should be emblematic of the ‘Sphere. Like, their official composer: A hardcore player, multiple wives and paternity issues, incredibly racist and anti-Semitic, longwinded in the extreme (both in his writing and his music, which– GL finding a cadence!).

    He’s like the very embodiment of grandiosity, drama and less-than-healthy (ie super messed up) relationships! And yet, there are so many facets of The Ring Cycle that are sheet awesomeness.

    As for Liszt: I’ve found that he tends to orchestrate very pianistically, if that makes sense. He likes to arpeggiate EVERYTHING. Have you ever heard/played any of his tone poems? Also, his piano transcriptions of Beethoven’s symphonies are really cool, I think I have a Glenn Gould recording of one.

    BTW, I think you mean “The Sorrows of Young Werther” for another epic Goethe piece? It is SO ‘Spherian: The story of a young guy in his 20s who commits suicide over a hot chick who is engaged to someone more “Alpha.” The guy (Goethe) was a drama llama sometimes.

  • Apparently “Young Werther” resulted in imitation suicides all over Europe…in later additions of the book, Goethe added an introduction or postscript that said something like “Real men don’t commit suicide!”

  • Anacaona

    Apparently “Young Werther” resulted in imitation suicides all over Europe…in later additions of the book, Goethe added an introduction or postscript that said something like “Real men don’t commit suicide!”
    I knew I despised that book for a reason. I always though Werner as an idiot that enjoyed drama. You fall for a person that is already with someone else? You move the fuck on! You don’t dwell and see and torture yourself making a friendship with them growing stronger by the minute.
    Funny enough my very cheating best male friend loved that book and identified with Werner. Beats me why. He was getting laid like tile :/

  • Wondering

    @Susan

    Makes sense. Had to learn that the hard way a few months ago and I will be doing my very best to hold out for an exclusive situation before I have sex the next time around despite the fact that doing so is virtually unheard of!

    I’m 25 and sad to report that these issues seem to persist well after college.

    I would love to see more posts that address how tough it is to meet guys period. I think the “few and far between” mentality is a huge contributing factor to giving into hooking up early and staying with guys who are assholes.

    • I would love to see more posts that address how tough it is to meet guys period. I think the “few and far between” mentality is a huge contributing factor to giving into hooking up early and staying with guys who are assholes.

      OK, I’ll work on a post addressing this. The Girl Game Challenge devoted one week to taking up a new activity. What you need to do is put yourself in situations constantly where you might strike up a conversation with someone new. You have to network, work it really hard.

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT meeting people: You can do that on a bus stop. The question is figuring them out.
    IMO, employment or civic projects putting you in contact with numbers of people is the way to go.
    You’re in contact without having to approach. and without the tension and “what-nows” of having any kind of approach/date.
    In addition, the other person’s personality is running up against whatever you’re doing. You can learn more watching that than by watching how he or she comports in a couple of dates where the objective requires certain actions and attitudes and forestalls others, despite what the person might actually be like.
    And there may be more than one. Like a dozen. Even if you don’t end up seeing one of them, you’ll learn a lot about people by watching them.

  • Wondering

    Looking forward to the post. I know I need to push myself harder. Sigh. So jealous of the girls lucky enough to have met the guy they marry in college.

    I would also be interested to hear your thoughts on Tinder which seems to be making casual hook ups even easier. Just so discouraging.

    • I would also be interested to hear your thoughts on Tinder which seems to be making casual hook ups even easier. Just so discouraging.

      Believe it or not, a young woman I know met her serious boyfriend on Tinder about 6 months ago! It was random but they went out and it has progressed in a very traditional way. She is someone who had been feeling very discouraged trying to date after college.

      I guess the lesson is that opportunities are lurking everywhere! Obviously, one cannot pursue all strategies at the same time, but it’s probably good to be open minded about trying new approaches. As long as you’re willing to filter aggressively, it shouldn’t involve wasting too much time.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Han

    You can worry less about climate change. Many recent studies show the sensitivity to doubling CO2 is now more likely in the 1.5-2C range than the previously believed 3C range.

    And the models may just be quite wrong, especially if the current 15-year flat temperatures continue.

    I am not well-versed enough in the field to be of much use one or way another in evaluating these models 😛

    My usefulness more pertains to economic issues and I enjoy the occasional random speculation on political transformations and tensions.

  • Gin Martini

    Jackie, I find it exceedingly easy to compliment others (not overtly, but indirectly) and make them feel good. It sometimes comes back to me.

    Ana: “my very cheating best male friend”

    I think if you could sum up the Roissysphere in six words, this might just be it.

  • szopen

    @anacaona

    I knew I despised that book for a reason. (Young Werther)

    So you had it in school too? I hated it. It was the worse part of “literary periods, German romanticism” in my high school.
    But still, I love romantic poems and art almost as much as “young “. Schiller’s great too. Not to mention some poets which are unknown outside my home country 🙂

  • szopen

    @escoffier

    szopen, from society’s perspective,

    @gin martini

    A perfectly monogamous LTR between two n=1 people is still sin.

    You mean, outside a marriage, right?

  • szopen

    @HanSolo

    You can worry less about climate change

    Han, we were discussing this once, right, or am I confusing you with someone else? Do you have fire insurance on your house?

  • Sai

    @Anacaona
    “For what is worth I liked INTJ. I actually like ‘as friends’ every guy here.”

    I agree. (Except for the occasional trolls.)

    Speaking of trolls… violentacrez may be finished, but I’m still having trouble believing this woman is for real. Maybe one of you can tell.
    http://crazygail.com/Crazy_gail_wiki

    @Jackie
    “I had a historian tell me that being a prole/peasant/average joe nowadays trumps being royalty from days past, any day of the week. Indoor plumbing– enough said! 8-)”

    +100
    No matter what else does or does not happen, nothing is worth never again being able to go at night indoors with the lights on.
    Visiting other times and places would be interesting, but the time machine should always be ready to leave.

    Re: Goethe
    http://youtu.be/S9fHa6caCMc

  • Anacaona

    I think if you could sum up the Roissysphere in six words, this might just be it.
    Yay! I created a meme :p

    So you had it in school too? I hated it. It was the worse part of “literary periods, German romanticism” in my high school.
    Nope I’m a writer we had certain ‘suggested’ readings and we were doing a sort of timeline and reading at least two books of the most important authors of all times. I picked this after reading Faust part one. I should had picked Ifigenia in Tauris blerg….

    Visiting other times and places would be interesting, but the time machine should always be ready to leave.
    Hubby and I let go of the idea of traveling to the past except maybe for ancient Egypt or to save some Alexandria texts. You will have to deal with filthiness, cannibalism, cruelty and abuse from the 1% to the rest. My personal deal breaker is that the ancient used to abandon unwanted kids everywhere or sacrificing them to their Gods not something I need to witness thank you very much.

  • Gin Martini

    szopen, yes. When I say LTR, I mean unmarried monogamy with no “expiration date” in mind.

  • Time machine travel planning would be highly dependent on whether you have a reliable time machine (pretty sure you can come back again) or an unreliable one (good chance of getting stranded permanently.)

    One writer who does time travel well as a literary device is Connie Willis.

  • Plain Jain

    szopen May 13, 2013 at 5:42 am

    @escoffier

    szopen, from society’s perspective,

    @gin martini

    A perfectly monogamous LTR between two n=1 people is still sin.

    You mean, outside a marriage, right?
    ______________

    You guys are on the wrong blog. I’d link to Dullcock’s for you here but don’t think Aunt Sue would appreciate that.

  • Plain Jain

    “This is the reason I hate Sex and the City. It encouraged a whole generation of young women not cut out for hedonism to give it a try.”

    I’ve seen about a dozen episodes and the only sexually hedonistic one of the 4 was the tall old blonde. The other 3 were all about “relationship sex” and getting married.

  • Plain Jain

    Re: Time Travel

    All the history I’ve read about pre-Islamic South and South East Asia painted a pretty idealistic Ancient Hindu Civilization where art, music, linguistics, poetry, architecture, astronomy, textiles, trade, metelurgy, herbology, and ideallic village life was the norm.

    And of course philosophy. That was huge and multifaceted and enough has been preserved and handed to to the present that we can gain more than a glimpse of the brilliance.

    So I’d choose that in a split second.

    _______________________

    “A guy who likes you and wants to be in a relationship is going to happily agree to your escalating emotionally when he escalates sexually. Time after time young women have told me that when they finally met the right guy, the DTR took about 30 seconds. Both of them jumped off the high dive together.

    Trust me, that’s the only kind of boyfriend you really want. ”

    This confuses me because I can recall other posts mentioning the importance of giving guys space to think if they need it, that it is common for males to withdraw, etc. Susan, can you explain?
    ______________

    YES SUSAN, CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN?

  • Man

    You guys are on the wrong blog.

    I agree with you PJ. Too many guys here trying to convince women about their point of views. I am here mostly to lurk what women/girls are talking about and read occasional Dr. Susan’s good advice for the New Millennial Men. 🙂 Occasionally I also give my straightforward opinion about something, but I am not trying to convince anyone or engage into philosophical debates (this is a boring manly thing). But given the mission statement, I think she’s also interested in men’s opinions. I just think it’s getting often too philosophical and intellectual.

    I support both women and men in their search for meaningful relationships by providing strategic insight, guidance, and perspective as they manage their social and sexual interactions.

  • J

    In many ways, he should be emblematic of the ‘Sphere. Like, their official composer: A hardcore player, multiple wives and paternity issues, incredibly racist and anti-Semitic, longwinded in the extreme (both in his writing and his music, which– GL finding a cadence!).

    The hubs loves Wagner. While attending another opera, he noticed an ad for a performance of The Ring Cycle and began to try to convince me to see it with him. I refused on the grounds of anti-Semitism, longwindedness, ponderousness and repetiveness. He commented that he sees seen my charmed by the Rhine maidens. I replied that 20 minutes of Wagner is enough and, after that, I just want him to kill the f’in wabbit alweady. Laughter exploded all around us.

    http://www.spike.com/video-clips/jw3cjp/whats-opera-doc-kill-tha-wabbit

  • SayWhaat

    All the history I’ve read about pre-Islamic South and South East Asia painted a pretty idealistic Ancient Hindu Civilization where art, music, linguistics, poetry, architecture, astronomy, textiles, trade, metelurgy, herbology, and ideallic village life was the norm.

    And rape. Don’t forget about the rape.

  • Gin Martini

    PJ: “You guys are on the wrong blog. I’d link to Dullcock’s for you here but don’t think Aunt Sue would appreciate that.”

    It’s still a sin to a few billion Christians, of which many post here, regardless of what one blogger says. Perhaps a forgivable sin, but it’s sin.

  • J

    @Bully

    huge on weightlifting – eventually there will be a point though where the inevitable testosterone decline will make it harder and harder to hold muscle.

    I dunno. My dad maintained a lot of muscle through his 70s; my middle-aged desk jockey husband has begun swimming on a regular basis and is building a lot of muscle. The exercising alone can boost testosterone and taking steroids can atrophy your testicles, reducing the amount of testosterone you can make.

    @Jackie

    Excellent summation, as usual, J

    Thanks, sweetie.

    @Susan

    He said that in the era when he married, 1955, Catholics were encouraged, even pressured, to sacrifice intercourse for a full 30 days after the wedding.

    Wow!

    We need to let priests marry.

    I agree.

  • J

    @Jackie

    OTC, I suffer from low-self-esteem and feeling bad about my appearance.

    I saw your pic on Facebook when you friended someone else. I thought you were beautiful.

    • I thought you were beautiful.

      Jackie is a stunner. Seriously. Her lack of self-confidence in this area pains me a great deal.

  • szopen

    @PJ

    You guys are on the wrong blog.

    Frankly, PJ, I think you have read something wrong.Maybe you missed all those posts where I have clearly and repeatedly stated I am an atheist. I wasn’t arguing that sex outside a marriage is a sin, since I don’t believe in a sin at all. I just wanted to make sure I understood Gin’s position correctly, since I didn’t want to start an argument without being absolutely sure I won’t misrepresent him. Since he made his position clear, I feel no need to discuss this further.

    That I discuss something means simply that I like discussing things, not that I support something.

    As for invitation for visiting dalrock, in fact I first read dalrock before finding out Susan Walsh. I do sometimes reading him, since it gives me very interesting insight about how religious people may think and reason.

  • Gin Martini

    Szopen, I am ex-Christian, which demonstrates my perspective in the conversation Jackie and I were having. Sex outside marriage is a sin to Christians – of which I am not one. So, a lifetime of unmarried sex is also a lifetime of sin, just as the crazy hedonism proposed earlier. According to Christians, again.

    Jackie, while I appreciate your empathizing, comparing you to me seems… rather empirically incorrect at best. There are people who have more gifts than others.

  • Plain Jain

    szopen, “As for invitation for visiting dalrock, in fact I first read dalrock before finding out Susan Walsh. I do sometimes reading him, since it gives me very interesting insight about how religious people may think and reason.”

    You mean to say “very interesting insight about how religious CHRISTIANS reason.”

    I’m religious (in a completely different religion), and their reasoning is foreign to me. Heck, in my religion believing in God is not even required.
    You can be orthodox and a complete atheist at the same time.

  • Plain Jain

    SayWhaat, “And rape. Don’t forget about the rape.”

    What rape? What are you talking about?

    “We need to let priests marry.”

    In Catholocism? Aren’t many priests previously married men to begin with?

  • doomwolf

    PJ, the Catholic church categorically forbids its’ priests to marry. As far as I know, all the Protestant denominations don’t have this restriction; the various Orthodox denominations are somewhere in between. The only married Catholic priests I know of are the former Anglicans Pope Benedict allowed in when the Church of England split over gay marriage a few years ago. According to the wikipedia article below, bishops *are* allowed to ordain married men as priests, but historically have been reluctant to.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy

    As for why the Catholics practice clerical celibacy, there is some theological grounding, though you can interpret it more than one way. There’s also the Gregorian Reforms in the 11th century, but the reason clerical marriage was banned then was for political reasons, ie, priests and bishops were making their offices hereditary. I’m not Catholic, but I would love to see the Vatican lift the requirement for clerical celibacy, I think it would make the church more relevant. Also, as a Protestant I have no problem with married clergymen.

  • J

    Your comment brought to mind the story of “violentacrez”

    Just googled “violentacrez” to see if he was the Reddit troll; he was. Seems he is a programmer from the Dallas area. Must be something in the water there.

  • szopen

    @Plain Jane
    If I would base my idea of life in pre-christian Poland on the descriptions from the chronicles, instead of basing them on archeology and critical history, I would say Poland was paradise flowing with milk and honey. I say you tend to idealise your home area way too much.

  • Wondering

    @Susan

    Something I have been pondering from your reply –

    ” If he’s ambivalent and you’re having sex, most times he’ll decide he likes the status quo better than commitment.”

    Are you saying all things being equal, not having sex would make him more likely to commit? Whats the reasoning here?

    • @Wondering

      Are you saying all things being equal, not having sex would make him more likely to commit? Whats the reasoning here?

      I’m saying why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. A woman has the most leverage before she has sex, and much less afterwards.

  • Apple

    Really, it comes down to a woman having the balls to say: “I don’t care what your penis wants if you don’t care what my heart wants.”

    I have NO idea why so many men seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to play with a woman’s emotions and use her sexually… i.e. get everything HE wants, while acting like her having any needs at all is some horrible imposition on him.

    This might be why I’ve never had problems getting men to commit, because I REALLY do not care what their penis wants if they don’t care what my heart wants. And why should I? Why should any woman?

    • Really, it comes down to a woman having the balls to say: “I don’t care what your penis wants if you don’t care what my heart wants.”

      That is brilliant. I’m going to use this in a post.

  • Apple

    The “actual” line, I’ve always used in real life is: “I don’t do casual sex. Sex for me is something that happens when I love someone and they love me. I understand that’s not how most people operate now, but that’s how I operate. If you don’t like those terms, I won’t waste your time.”