How to Meet Guys After College

May 14, 2013

couple at coffee house“What good is sitting alone in your room?

Come hear the music play.

Life is a Cabaret, old chum,

Come to the Cabaret.”

 

Fred Ebb, Cabaret

 

“Eighty percent of success is showing up.”

 

Woody Allen

 

A reader writes:

I’m 25 and sad to report that these issues seem to persist well after college.

I would love to see more posts that address how tough it is to meet guys period. I think the “few and far between” mentality is a huge contributing factor to giving into hooking up early and staying with guys who are assholes.

One of the cruelest things about hookup culture is that it prevails during a time when you’re meeting more people of the opposite sex than you ever will again. (Nod to Susan Patton.) After college, whether you move to a small town or large city, it becomes more difficult to meet new people. In the past I’ve provided suggestions on where to meet the love of your life. You could meet him anywhere – the train station, the beach, at a friend’s home, through your Aunt Millie.

The truth is, a list of venues or possibilities doesn’t really help you much if you haven’t got the right mindset. On the other hand, if you do have the right mindset, the venues don’t matter much. 

When my daughter was first learning to play soccer, her coach was working on teaching the kids basic ball skills, and I’ll never forget how he began. He said, “For now, just try to touch the ball with your foot.  That’s all. Don’t kick it, don’t pass it, don’t run with it. Just see how many touches you can get during this practice.” At least half the battle was getting the kids comfortable with approaching and touching the ball. Showing up. Once they had that down, they could begin to work on foot skills and various plays. 

 Finding a life partner is like that. You have to touch a lot of balls.  To have one good conversation, you may need to have 100 casual conversations that don’t go anywhere. You need to network for dating the exact same way you might network professionally. Lots of coffee dates, informational “interviews,” making connections with friends of friends and most importantly, letting everyone know you’re looking.

Women are often reticent about letting people know they’d like a relationship. It seems pathetic to say “Waaaah, waaaah, I want a boyfriend.” That is pathetic, so that’s not what you’ll say. As you get to know people, they’ll ask if you have a boyfriend (they always do). You’ll say, “No, but now that I’ve settled into my life here, I’d love to meet someone.” Keep it positive and others will begin thinking of you as someone they can introduce around when the opportunity arises. You only appear desperate and pathetic if you act that way. By the way, don’t aggressively ask every woman you get friendly with, “Hey, know any cute single guys you can set me up with?” Make it clear you’re open to meeting new people, and then focus on being a quality friend. If and when there’s a potential match, they’ll think of it on their own.

Here are the four most common ways people meet their spouses after college, along with some suggestions on how to get things moving:

Work

Office romances frequently end in marriage. Approximately 20% of married couples meet at work. Forty percent of people say they have dated a coworker at least once, and of those relationships, 30% end in marriage.

Use common sense. Don’t shag the boss.

Don’t overlook the possibility of networking in the office for social opportunities. One young woman I know met her boyfriend when one of the firm’s partners invited her to lunch with his son. 

The woman in the cube next to you may have a cute brother, or a boyfriend who knows some good guys. 

Online Dating

It accounts for about 20% of American marriages, so ignore it at your peril. Yes, online dating is time consuming, and there’s no built in quality control. Start by presenting yourself as a woman who is looking to give or share, not take. Women often appear mercenary, bratty and entitled in online profiles. By taking the opposite approach, you’ll stand out from the crowd. 

The key to managing online dating is filtering. Filter out any guy who checks the “short-term”  box, even if he also checks the long-term relationship box. You want to focus on guys who are up front about not looking for casual. Filter in any guy who seems interesting or funny, regardless of how lame or goofy or meh his picture looks. Any guy who makes you laugh deserves a coffee date. 

Friends and Family

This is huge. As I mentioned above, let people know you’re available for a relationship. I know of at least two couples where, once the woman did this, a guy she knew and found attractive stepped forward and said, “How about me?” You have no idea what possibilities are out there! 

Accept all invitations. BBQs, your cousin’s graduation party, your 5th high school reunion at the bowling alley. The lame party your friend is throwing may have one interesting new guy there. 

Go on blind dates. Yes, you’ll meet some duds, but once you let people know you’re looking, it’s only polite to gracefully accept any potential date they line up for you. I know one young woman who went out with a guy who works for the husband of a coworker. She was very disappointed, but did not let it show. She was gracious, and a couple of months later, the same colleague set her up again, this time with someone she found very attractive.

Host gatherings. Invite friends to bring friends. Do it not just for yourself, but for other singles you know. They’ll reciprocate, and that gets the ball rolling. 

Random Encounters

The odds of meeting your future husband in line at Starbucks or in a crosswalk may be slim, but this is the fourth most common way people meet their spouses. You don’t need to be on the prowl every time you drop off your dry cleaning. By assuming a friendly demeanor, exchanging pleasantries and making eye contact with people, you create a connection. Sometimes you wind up getting to know a fellow regular somewhere. 

Don’t just focus on guys. Practice random acts of kindness in general – you’ll be surprised how good that feels regardless of the romantic prospect. 

You’re in your 20s, it’s time to focus on the traits that make a good dad. Keep an open mind. Be kind. 

In closing, I’ll share a list of where 20-something women I know met their serious boyfriends. It’s strictly anecdotal, but perhaps also fairly typical:

College: 1

Gym: 1

BFF’s brother: 1

Work: 3

Friends of friends: 5

Online dating: 2

Introduced by rabbi: 1

Blind date via coworkers: 1

For these 15 relationships, all of which may lead to marriage (3 are engaged), there were undoubtedly hundreds of false starts, dates with no chemistry, and disappointed hopes. 

You can’t just sit home in your room, you’ve got to work it. 

If you’ve got a good story about how you met your boyfriend or girlfriend, share it in the comments, we’d love to hear it!

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    A little off-topic, but remember that time when I said that the concept of sexual harassment is applied in bad faith?

    Feast your eyes on this.

    Warn your focus group girls — dating in college just got more perilous.

    Back on topic: I’m having this exact problem meeting new people. I do have a job, but I don’t share much in common with the people there.

  • Man

    I think the article is pretty applicable to men as well, with the appropriate adaptations. I did not find my girlfriend yet (or she didn’t find me either) but I am progressively escalating into some or most of these tips, typically having a friendly demeanor, exchanging small pleasantries, flirting and sometimes even outright approaching some girl I am interested in. These days I even approached a stunning beautiful stewardess in flight. 🙂 Overall, I am finding it fun and enjoyable.

    • @Man

      These days I even approached a stunning beautiful stewardess in flight. Overall, I am finding it fun and enjoyable.

      That’s great! Enjoying the mating dance (despite risk of rejection) is possible, with the right attitude. Which is to have fun and feel relatively immune to each individual outcome. The more approaches you do, the easier that is.

  • Joe

    Hum. I was watching the TV show Castle last night. It’s very good and I like it a lot. But I think there’s a trap there in TV land for young people looking to find a serious relationship. It’s too ideal, dramatic and perfect.

    I love your advice, Susan, but I think that, for all those dozens of coffee dates, you have to go into every single one not expecting to hear harps playing and birds chirping or even perfectly timed, witty dialog that seems to go on for minutes when, really, hours have passed by effortlessly. That happens every night, but only in Hollywood.

    IRL, it’s necessary to give it some time. The music will play and the birds will chirp eventually. But it’s a lot more subtle thing than people want to believe at first.

    • @Joe

      IRL, it’s necessary to give it some time. The music will play and the birds will chirp eventually. But it’s a lot more subtle thing than people want to believe at first

      That’s real wisdom, thanks for sharing it. In my first draft I told women to stop being so damn picky, but decided that was too accusatory and negative. I should have emphasized realistic expectations instead.

  • angelguy

    Work and Online dating are a no-no for me.
    Been there, done that, and it was a disaster.

    Family and Friends would seem like a good option, but sometimes I find
    that when you choosing either one, there is some fallout.

    Random encounters I feel more comfortable with. At least when it doesn’t workout, the chances of running into them again are slim.

    Give me Option #4
    Lol.

  • Charlotte

    Hi Susan,
    Long time, no visit. Great article.

    Since I was last here, I have been on many, many, casual dates – meaning coffee or a drink or even dinner. Probably at least 25. Out of those, I continued dating only have kissed two, dated one for more than two dates, and I’m talking to one guy of this interest now. I met him quite randomly at a beer garden, he pursued me but we never ended up getting together, we talked for a while, it faded out, and then I ran into him on Saturday night. NYC is smaller than you think. Hopefully he is as interested in me as I am in him, but if not, my dating experience thus far has showed me that there are A LOT of fish in the sea, and that you have to go in with the expectation that if nothing else, you will learn about your communication skills, what you are looking for, and just enjoy the conversation and the potential silly stories that may come out of it.

    If you aren’t into it, the other person typically can tell that there isn’t chemistry. I’ve only had it happen a couple times that the guy couldn’t pick up that I wasn’t interested.

    I’m trying to keep my options open and meet as many people as possible – you never know where a friend of a friend may lead.

    • @Charlotte

      It’s great to see you! Your attitude is perfect. (Assuming you’re not being too picky. 😛 )

      you have to go in with the expectation that if nothing else, you will learn about your communication skills, what you are looking for, and just enjoy the conversation and the potential silly stories that may come out of it.

      There is value in all of those experiences. You are learning more about others, and about yourself. If you keep at it, and filter aggressively, you will find him, even working in fashion in NYC 😛

  • mr. wavevector

    It doesn’t surprise me that the most effective source of boyfriends in your sample was friends of friends. That certainly was the best source of dates back in the day.

    Here’s how I got married. I think these tips still work today.

    1) Work: Find a job at a company with a lot of recent college hires, if you can find such a thing in this lousy economy. Instant social group.

    2) House parties are a good way to meet friends of friends. This requires a semi-suburban city with houses to party in, or course.

    3) If you are not so attractive and extroverted, find an “icebreaker” – an attractive and extroverted same sex friend. Tag along while your icebreaker chats up an attractive and extroverted opposite sex person. Then chat up that person’s not so attractive and extroverted friends. Hopefully one of them will be sensible enough to appreciate the attention.

    4) Don’t be reluctant to date your ex’s friends. All’s fair in love and war!

    • @mr. wv

      If you are not so attractive and extroverted, find an “icebreaker” – an attractive and extroverted same sex friend.

      Thanks for saying this. I was aware of the E/I dichotomy while writing the piece, but decided the advice applies to everyone. Obviously, chatting up strangers on the street will be easier for extroverts, house parties of a reasonable size are better for introverts. Still, this is a good bit of advice – I have been drawn myself to the introverted male who was in the presence of more extroverted males. The wingman approach really does work.

  • angelguy

    “4) Don’t be reluctant to date your ex’s friends. All’s fair in love and war!”

    Could you elaborate on this WV?

    Would like to hear more about this.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ angelguy,

    My wife was the good friend of my ex. About a month after the breakup I called her up. I proposed a half year later.

    It was doubly incestuous: her previous bf was my good friend, whom I had set her up with earlier.

    My friend was totally cool with it. He had been recently divorced and wasn’t ready for a serious relationship, but he had nothing but good things to say about her.

    My ex? Ever hear the Alanis Morissette song You Oughta Know? Exactly like that.

    … except the going down on me in the theater part. 🙁

  • angelguy

    “It was doubly incestuous: her previous bf was my good friend, whom I had set her up with earlier.

    My friend was totally cool with it. He had been recently divorced and wasn’t ready for a serious relationship, but he had nothing but good things to say about her. ”

    @WV
    Your friend sounds really great. I doubt I could handle something like that, despite not being ready for a serious relationship.
    Think it would hurt the ego too much.
    Glad it worked out for you.

  • mr. wavevector

    Yeah, he was not only OK with it but encouraged me to go for it. He only had a few dates with her – he bailed as soon as it looked serious because he realized he was too screwed up emotionally. So it wasn’t like a relationship that didn’t work out – it was like he needed more therapy. He thought she was a great girl and was happy to see it work out for me instead.

  • Anacaona

    Online dating advice
    I’m sure Hope probably has better things to say but my two cents.
    Most people use the online dating sites to arrange real life dates instead of actually dating. I think that is usually when things fizzle up and people get caught on narcissist’s webs.
    I would advice to get to know the other person online first. Check their characters and intentions if the other person is basking in attention and not attempting to get to know you probably it means he/she is not really looking to date you. If au contraire there is a mutual banter and genuine curiosity about you and some effort and mental energy invested in the other party chances are when you finally meet you at least will get an honest shot at the relationship.
    I would advice at least 10 hours of real conversation online before setting a date, YMMV.

    • @Anacaona

      Thank you for offering real life advice re online dating. I never did it, and it’s an area I do not feel qualified to offer advice on. Your advice sounds right on to me.

  • mr. wavevector

    How about this: online dating sites that let your mom pick a match for you.

    Hey Mom, Call Me When You Find My Wife

  • The problem with online communication with women is this :

    Lots of I’s, me’s, and my’s in their correspondence … and a dearth of you’s.

    You can use cocky-funny to break through this, but it is a gamble; a real gamble.

    So what to do then ?

    Troll her. Troll her hard.

    Yet another gamble.

    But here the payoff is a woman, who when she responds to this, is so angry she’ll shag you.

    • Lots of I’s, me’s, and my’s in their correspondence … and a dearth of you’s.

      Yeah, I gather that both from male comments here and from the general media. I tried to address it in the post by suggesting that women back off on what they want and deserve. If it’s really that bad online, a woman with a generous heart should stand out from the crowd. I assume there are at least a few of those.

  • mr. wavevector

    The problem with online communication with women is this :

    Lots of I’s, me’s, and my’s in their correspondence … and a dearth of you’s.

    A.k.a female solipsism. Funny, I was just reading about that in an article about analyzing the conversations of heterosexual couples during speed dating encounters.

    “We were looking at conversational behaviors or speech features and how they express characteristics of the social experience, how you feel about the other person,” Jurafsky said.

    Women reported a sense of connection to men who used appreciative language (“That’s awesome” or “Good for you”) and sympathy (“That must be tough on you”).

    Women also reported clicking with male partners who interrupted them – not as a way to redirect the conversation but to demonstrate understanding and engagement, for example, by finishing a sentence or adding to it.

    Both genders reported clicking when their conversations were mainly about the women.

    You could say men are self-centered and women are always trying to please men and dates will go well if they talk about the guy, but it turns out that’s just not true. It’s just the opposite,” McFarland said. “This is a situation in life where women have the power, women get to decide. So talking about the empowered party is a sensible strategy toward feeling connected.”

  • Mr Wavevector.

    Show me a woman with a preponderance of you’s in her missives, and I’ll show you a femme fatale.

    The rest are femme vocales.

  • Jonny

    All it takes is ONE. One person to take you from singledom. I dated much, but not enough to say I’m experienced with it. I tried online dating – but know how to use it. It can be exciting at first, but prospects dried up after one week. I done the blind date thing, but your friends don’t know you as well as they think and are pretty bad at introductions and screening for predictive behavior. You have to do your own due diligence despite their pre-screening.

    As a general rule, avoid co-workers while keeping an open mind. You really don’t want to jeopardize your professional life. This is still a horrible business climate. Jobs are scarce. Circumstances vary. Some red flags. Don’t date in a majority female work enviroment. Gossip will be horrible. Don’t date in the same department or same building or same senior manager. Other than these restrictions, let things go slow, to a crawl. If things don’t work, break it off by the third date. Never give the girl or guy a false impression of interest. Game or player behavior should be avoided here at all cost.

    Go on outings in a mixed environment. This is a nice time filler, but it didn’t work so well for me, but maybe for others.

    What finally worked for me is Speed Dating. I highly recommend it. Chances to meet tons of women and no more than 10 minutes each. I met my second wife here. (If you’re wondering, my first wife was via blind date.)

    • @Jonny

      What finally worked for me is Speed Dating. I highly recommend it. Chances to meet tons of women and no more than 10 minutes each. I met my second wife here. (If you’re wondering, my first wife was via blind date.

      That’s a great suggestion, I didn’t even think of that!

  • Sai

    I’m with angelguy, #4 please.

    But no coffee, I find it vile.

  • BDM

    A great man once said, “Love is like the wind. You can’t control the wind – but you can open a lot of windows and try to get a draft going.”

    • A great man once said, “Love is like the wind. You can’t control the wind – but you can open a lot of windows and try to get a draft going.”

      Great quote! Basically, the ideas that “it will happen when it’s meant to” or “love will find you when you least expect it” are totally bogus! Personally, I have always found it much more effective, and even comforting, to take action rather than lie in wait for something good to happen.

  • Sam

    Incredibly well timed. I may have had a few drinks last night bemoaning this exact situation. Especially frustrating because I have been taking such efforts for a good while now but still haven’t struck much of anything but fools gold, land mines, and bombs. Its either chemistry but no congruence, or congruence and no chemistry or attraction, oh bother. It is fun in certain ways but man can’t live on whats read alone.

  • Jonny #16

    great comment

  • SayWhaat

    Filter out any guy who checks the “short-term” box, even if he also checks the long-term relationship box.

    I’m not so sure this is realistic advice, at least for NYC. I just re-activated my OKC profile (ugh) and I have yet to come across a profile that solely checks “long-term relationship”. Filtering out everyone who checks “short-term” is only going to leave the obese 50yo men from Hoboken (if that).

    • @SayWhaat

      I’m not so sure this is realistic advice, at least for NYC. I just re-activated my OKC profile (ugh) and I have yet to come across a profile that solely checks “long-term relationship”. Filtering out everyone who checks “short-term” is only going to leave the obese 50yo men from Hoboken (if that).

      OK. I wondered about that a bit, actually. I think a lot of guys would check short-term just so they don’t come across as too eager for commitment. That’s sound strategy. It’s the Pretend Asshole thing again. In that case, though, you have to be ready to DQ a guy at the first sign of STR behavior. That can be discouraging. But if that’s what the market conditions are, you have to find a way to play…

  • mr. wavevector

    @SayWhaat,

    I’m not so sure this is realistic advice, at least for NYC.

    Best advice for someone in NYC looking for a serious LTR:

    Move.

  • Guys are everywhere. You just have to get out there. Join some clubs or volunteer. Try online dating….it’s not the horror that most make it out to be.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    The wingman approach really does work.

    Yes, but only for those sensible enough to stick to their SMV level. A lot of guys get dazzled by the hot chicks that their hot friend approaches and try vying for their attention. Most of them have no chance. Meanwhile there are opportunities among the other girls who are feeling neglected.

    Of course that’s a total beta strategy. But it’s better to be a successful beta than an unsuccessful alpha wanna-be.

    • Meanwhile there are opportunities among the other girls who are feeling neglected.

      Of course that’s a total beta strategy. But it’s better to be a successful beta than an unsuccessful alpha wanna-be.

      +1000 Amen to that!

  • I just finished reading Roosh’s book Day Bang
    http://www.amazon.com/Day-Bang-Casually-Girls-During/dp/1463765045/

    I recommend it to any guy very highly as a delightful introduction to how to improve at making small talk with people.

    Roosh is a pick-up artist, so he assumes you are wanting to make small talk with girls to eventually hook up. But the book itself is merely a well-tested guide to taking to strangers: Roosh put all his stuff about dating and sex in his other book.

    The book can provide more hope that finding a potential spouse outside of college is quite possible, because with some practice talking to strangers will become not only easy but fun.

    Tangentially, if you are the parent of a teenage son whose seems to say nothing but “uh-huh” and “sure” on the phone with his friends, get him this book!

  • Sassy6519

    Show me a woman with a preponderance of you’s in her missives, and I’ll show you a femme fatale.

    Our secrets are getting out ladies. Rally the forces and sound the alarm!!

  • mr. wavevector

    Successful dates, the paper notes, were associated with women being the focal point and engaged in the conversation, and men demonstrating alignment with and understanding of the women.

    I’ve been thinking more about that research about language in speed dating. It makes so much sense. Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them. But before they let a man top them they want evidence that he is kind and attuned to their emotions. What this research describes is women screening for those qualities.

    I’ve proposed that male emotional responsiveness is the correlate to female sexual receptivity. A man can display his emotional responsiveness even in just a 4 minute speed date by putting the woman in the focal point and demonstrating his emotional understanding of her.

    This research suggests that benevolent male dominance is superior to the straight up alpha behavior of displaying higher value in this situation. Demonstrating empathy and emotional understanding provides evidence of the “benevolent” part of BMD, not the “dominance” part.

    • Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them. But before they let a man top them they want evidence that he is kind and attuned to their emotions.

      Brilliant observation, I think you nailed it here.

      This research suggests that benevolent male dominance is superior to the straight up alpha behavior of displaying higher value in this situation. Demonstrating empathy and emotional understanding provides evidence of the “benevolent” part of BMD, not the “dominance” part.

      You’re really onto something with this BMD. It gets much closer to female sexuality than most of the straight game stuff, which, after all, is not generally LTR oriented.

      BTW, did anyone see Mad Men this week? Don Draper’s dominance – not at all benevolent – was so disturbing. I was glad his mistress ended the affair. There really is such a thing as way too much alpha. He’s a sociopath.

  • SayWhaat

    In that case, though, you have to be ready to DQ a guy at the first sign of STR behavior. That can be discouraging. But if that’s what the market conditions are, you have to find a way to play…

    This time around, I’m combing through the match questions a little more carefully. It’s tricky because I have to figure out whether an answer reveals sociosexual orientation, or is just “boys will be boys”. Two cute guys messaged me, one whose profile only had “short-term relationship” checked, and the other’s questions revealed that he was okay with an open relationship. Both were deal-breakers.

    (Side note: put up a new picture today on Facebook and got yet another blast from the past. I might start deleting Facebook friends in droves, lol.)

  • SayWhaat

    BTW, did anyone see Mad Men this week? Don Draper’s dominance – not at all benevolent – was so disturbing. I was glad his mistress ended the affair. There really is such a thing as way too much alpha. He’s a sociopath.

    GAAAH spoiler!! I’m still watching the episode!!

    • GAAAH spoiler!! I’m still watching the episode!!

      Whoops! Sorry, I should have said SPOILER ALERT!

  • Dinkney Pawson

    I met my wife on an email mailing list.

    They were discussing odd colored dogs. She mentioned she had pictures of an example dog. She offered to email them if people were interested. This was in the days of 14400 bps dial up.

    I offered to post them on a website. She could email the links. She accepted and we kept on talking.

    No good deed goes unpunished!

    • @Dinkney

      That’s a great story! What are the odds? As Jonny said, it only takes one, and there are many different ways of meeting that one.

  • Liz

    @Man

    These days I even approached a stunning beautiful stewardess in flight.

    Showin’ your age, dude. 😉

    Honestly, nobody under 40 says “stewardess” anymore.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Winter is Coming.

    • Winter is Coming.

      This sounds ominous. Also wrong, unless you live in Oz or NZ.

  • Show me a woman with a preponderance of you’s in her missives, and I’ll show you a femme fatale.

    Our secrets are getting out ladies. Rally the forces and sound the alarm!!

    Sassy, my deary darling, I so wanna bamboozle your TV so that the only channels you get, are from Uzbekistan …

  • Dinkney Pawson
    Winter is Coming.

    This sounds ominous. Also wrong, unless you live in Oz or NZ.

    You folks watch the wrong TV series.

    • You folks watch the wrong TV series.

      GOT! How did I miss that?

  • Man

    Showin’ your age, dude.
    Honestly, nobody under 40 says “stewardess” anymore.

    Nope. English is not my mother tongue. And according to the dictionary is correct. Why? Are you interested in knowing my age?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Man

    Showin’ your age, dude.
    Honestly, nobody under 40 says “stewardess” anymore.

    Nope. English is not my mother tongue. And according to the dictionary is correct. Why? Are you interested in knowing my age?

    Liz is getting on you because in the English-speaking countries, “stewardess” is considered an old-fashioned term for a woman who serves customers on an airplane (it also implies sexual attractiveness.) The preferred word is “flight attendant.”

    I personally think it’s stupid, but then again, male/female relations here in America are stupid.

  • Man

    @Susan:

    That’s great! Enjoying the mating dance (despite risk of rejection) is possible, with the right attitude. Which is to have fun and feel relatively immune to each individual outcome. The more approaches you do, the easier that is.

    Exactly. To my mind you used the perfect analogy: it’s a mating dance. And it gets enjoyable after a few awkward attempts and with the right attitude.

    Actually I have been developing what is known today as “inner game” for a long time. I never, ever played games. Learned everything upfront and straightforwards as they say. Today I can approach any woman I am interested in and start a conversation in almost any place.

    I usually filter out aggressively the ones I’ve come to learn here at HUS (I’m very recent here) being the unrestricted/avoidant/slut types; unless there is a very, very good reason for me to give them a chance such as receiving an earnest love declaration and also after pondering a number of factors for some time . 🙂

    There is one caveat however: as I am usually approaching the restricted/mom types, I run the risk of being perceived as a cad, which I am not, and so I try to take things slow.

    For instance, today I have approached another very beautiful girl. 🙂 I went to the gym and it was the first time I had seen her. She is really beautiful and just seems to be my type. I talked with her for some minutes about the gym and hers and mine preferred exercises/classes and asked her where she was from and her name. Sort of we introduced ourselves. She seems to be nice and also seemed interested in our talk. Deep inside while saying goodbye I was dying to ask her a telephone number or other contact info to get in touch with her, but I didn’t. I didn’t feel comfortable enough to do so in our first talk ever. I didn’t feel the right circumstances to do so were present. Perhaps in a next approach I could do so, especially if I receive some indications of interest or receptiveness on her part.

    I would appreciate a follow-up to this article on tips about how to take a further step when we find someone we’re interested in dating; or how to escalate things in the “mating dance”. Specifically, I am more interested in approaching the restricted/mom types. I mean, I can be very bold and pass by a cad actually when I am not. I would appreciate your sensible insights and information in this regard. Thanks.

  • Man

    it also implies sexual attractiveness

    Well, I actually said to her jokingly that I always wanted to date a stewardess and that I thought she was the right person. I also complimented her for her beauty. Even though she answered affirmatively to my question about whether she had a boyfriend (I always avoid triangles), she thanked me and the interaction brightened our day. We also have both words and I used the most appropriate one (which indicates sexual attraction actually).

  • biff

    Here’s my advice. I think a lot of women look down on online dating. However, this could be a very effective way to get noticed by a large number of guys. Try to pick several sites that may cover dating or friendships, etc. (if you want any alphaness, not likely to find it at match.com for instance) and set up appealing profiles on these. This requires several (maybe 4-6 is ideal) attractive pics (take some time creating these if need be). Flaunt what you have, but keep it classy. Like even one “innocent” swimsuit pic where you’re on the beach with your gfs (make sure you are the prettiest girl in all pics) can really get guys’ attention. The pics get the guy interested, then your profile can have a bit more substance. Talk about what interests you, what you do (you could add hints about education background, e.g., ivy league, or religious leanings if you’re only looking for comparable)–not crap like “I’m warm, loving and compassionate”–this is a turn off and sounds desparate. Don’t set requirements for guys in writing or talk about meeting guys at all (turn off again–you’re someone who has a life, but just set up a profile for fun). If you do this right, you should get lots of e-mails. Then filter filter filter.. (no need to respond if there’s no interest). Now, find a way to get onto MSN or something where you can chat with guys you “might” like and get to know them better before meeting up (any site with any kind of messaging is open to this e.g., “biff at hot mail” where actual e-mail addresses get blocked). You can continue filtering very quickly. But, for this to work, you need the biggest pool of people possible. You should get some decent guys. Meet only in public places–preferably during the day the first time. If you try to met someone at clubs or bars you will likely just find the bravest @holes.. So I think this is a good alternative. I’ve appreciated how online dating could help me sort through profiles and get what I wanted (my friend asked about my wife, how did you find such a beautiful girl–the answer is by sorting through thousands of profiles) rather than relying on “destiny” to do the trick…

    • @biff

      Welcome and thank you for the most awesome comment EVER! That is great advice for online dating – exactly what I’m trying to communicate in this post.

  • Gorb

    I have to disagree with the dating at work suggestion Susan made.

    Her advice is potentially devastating to men. She likely Doesn’t realise it so don’t blame her.

    Women have all the power in the workplace: the slightest suggestion of bad behavior at work gets a man fired and a company sued. Smart companies absolutely ban all coworker fraternisation.

    What happens if you break up? But beyond the merely social: the current climate is absolutely radioactive towards men.

    Under no circumstances ever advise men to date women from work. As a man who has seen this blow up for others several times, it’s never worth it. It’s Russian roulette.

    If you date at work, you surrender a lot of control over your professional life.

    Meet women outside work. You need to ignore Susan’s advice here. The rest is gold, however.

    Without reservation: dating at work is radioactive waste for men.

    Avoid.

    • @Gorb

      Yes, sexual harassment laws make dating at work risky. It can go both ways – a guy here shared that he had successfully filed a complaint against a woman in the office. In my post on this I shared some of what I’ve read elsewhere. For example, the timeline is much longer. It is essential to first spend time in groups, interact professionally and platonically, etc. Any attempt to bring the relationship to a personal level must be done offsite in a social setting. And no touching at all for four months.

      I hear what you’re saying, but for those who want to marry, the fact that 20% of marriages comes from work dating is huge. I think it can be done, though it does require caution.

  • Gorb

    I would give this specific advice to men:

    If a woman approaches you at work or shows romantic interest, this is the best way to respond:

    – be polite at all times and be respectful
    – allow her an easy, face-saving out by never trying to corner her or speaking openly or being cute about it: make sure she doesn’t socially suffer or feel rejected. This is what causes some women to get bitter and dangerously vindictive.
    – never be alone with her. Ever. From that moment on.
    – never contact her outside of work hours or for any non work related issue .
    – only socialise with her in groups and when you do, be polite, respectful and avoid anything that might seem remotely flirtatious.
    – if she persists, tell her privately that you’re unavailable . Lie if necessary. Thus avoids her feeling hurt.

    You have to protect her self esteem and positive self image at all times. It’s when a woman feels socially slighted that she will lash out and destroy rivals or, in this case, a man who rejected her.

    You have to look on situations where a woman shows interest in you as a walk through a minefield. You might get lucky.

    But are you going to trust in luck?

    Talk to men in the corporate world.

    Can you guarantee your behavior will always be flawless? No? Then me bet date at work.

  • @Man

    > I would appreciate a follow-up to this article on tips about
    > how to take a further step when we find someone we’re interested
    > in dating; or how to escalate things in the “mating dance”.

    Roosh’s book (which I mini-reviewed above) discusses when and how to transition from small talk to personal questions. (Which kinds of small talk better at establishing connection before personal questions happen? How can you tell when the conversation is ready for personal questions? Which personal questions generally result in the best future conversation?)

    And as I mentioned before, it’s great stuff to know even if you are not looking to have dates. It’s valuable stuff many (most?) guys are never taught about how to talk to strangers while being both non-threatening and interesting.

  • One successful story I can tell as an anecdote… I have an acquaintance (30yo, JD, starting SMV around 7) who did four things, in this order:

    1. Went to Dr. Revis, maestro of big fake boobs, in Ft Lauderdale for 650ccs of high-profile under-the-muscle silicone firepower…

    2. During her recovery period, read a large collection of male-oriented fiction (vintage sci-fi, techno-thrillers) and watched guy films that I and other male friends recommended (Scarface, Bullitt, Heat). Also watched porn. Basically immersed herself in research and training while absent from the social scene, like a female Count of Monte Cristo.

    3. When the boobs had finally “dropped & fluffed” at about the three month mark (32DD+), bought new wardrobe from All Saints in NYC. Some outfits are probably borderline over the top, but overall the look is still tasteful.

    4. Joined an MMA gym. She is one of like 7 girls out of several hundred students. She does the Muay Thai kickboxing classes and some conditioning classes.

    After six months, she basically can hardly walk in any direction without tripping over an offered alpha penis. She is basking in male attention and frequently one of the only girls invited to hang out with groups of fit, attractive combat athlete men, some of whom also have good day jobs (attorneys, RE developers, etc.). She has internalized a lot of Girl Game—I ran into her a few nights ago; she had gone to see the new Ironman movie by herself and it just looked cool.

    This has gone way beyond just getting dates—when she moved to a new place, she has 12 guys over to help her with furniture, painting, etc. Her “problem” now is that she doesn’t know if she wants to upset this apple cart by selecting one guy and having the others turn cold.

    Not recommending this approach for everyone—it does involve surgery and attendant risks and expenses, catering to male porn fantasy images that objectify women, etc. She doesn’t seem to have as many girl friends anymore, or even to relate to most women all that well. But God knows she is definitely meeting a lot of guys…

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      Your friend’s strategy sounds very effective for a woman wanting to maximize male sexual attention and minimize the risk of entering a monogamous relationship.

  • @ Wavevector

    >This research suggests that benevolent male dominance
    > is superior to the straight up alpha behavior of displaying
    > higher value in this situation.

    Yes. First Timothy 5:2. Treat younger women as sisters.

    I spend a lot of time at parks/library/etc. around moms since I am the primary care-parent of my two boys. I am an older fellow with a lot of Inner Game who makes people laugh, and have discovered it is nearly impossible for me to overdo “older-brotherly dominance”. Moms I have only spoken to briefly are amazingly agreeable to giving me their contact information, arranging play-dates, transitioning to our home or kid-friendly restaurant for lunch, braiding my hair, or even receiving the kind of short neck rubs guys give each other (and I would give my sister).

    My next experiment will be to sneak up behind one of these acquaintances, zerbert the back of her neck, then do my best to ignore her for the rest of the day–that seems to me the epitome of treating someone like a younger sister. I expect she’ll ask, “What was that?” but I can reply “First Timothy 5:2” as I walk away.

    This dynamic is actually getting kind of annoying. I would love to have more conversations with other dads, but they are much more difficult to talk to. I don’t want to become lazy and talk to moms instead of dads simply because those conversations are easier.

    (Many of the dads are always busy and on the move. With others I sense the distancing created by men viewing male strangers as potential rivals: competitors for resources. Is it odd that I’m hoping Roosh’s book will help me make small talk with other househusbands? I expect Roosh would laugh!)

    Note that this is NOT how I interact with work colleagues; as others have written, I am unwilling to risk my employment because someone takes offense at innocent playfulness.

    I’m also quite devout and led by God’s Spirit, who does a great job warning me to avoid certain women (whom I usually later learn are mean, too sensitive, about to meet a friend or family member who would be surprised to see them braiding someone’s hair, etc.)

  • sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    What does that even mean?

    Are you on the sauce again? 😛

  • Anacaona

    But no coffee, I find it vile.
    You are dead to me :p

  • Anacaona

    Are you on the sauce again?
    Is he ever not on it? 😛

  • HereIAm

    @Bastiat Blogger

    How is this success for your acquaintance? In the context of Susan’s post about women finding guys for (successful) LTRs?

    Look, there are many things about how your acquaintance relates to the guys she’s meeting that are not mentioned in your post so it is entirely possible that she may be doing some things that will help her develop a LTR with a guy but most of what you posted about is unlikely to be a part of that. Joining a MMA gym is certainly a way to meet a lot of guys – that’s positive. Making an attempt to understand what guys like – also a positive.

    Collecting alpha penises is not a good LTR strategy according to research Susan has mentioned.
    Getting breast implants has now made it more difficult for her to feel like she is being chosen and wanted for being her.
    Turning herself into a product/service for men is not going to help her feel like she can be loved and accepted for being her.

    This comes across to me as someone who is selling herself out to be wanted and desired by a man and in the process of doing so is making it harder for her to get what she really wants.

  • HereIAm

    I think it can be more helpful to go beyond the mentality of “I want a boyfriend” or “I want a relationship” or “I want to be in love”. One of the problems here is this sets things up as a product or service that you can get from someone. Instead, I think it can be more constructive to think about how you want to relate to a man/human being and what qualities you would like to experience from that interaction. For example:

    I want to create/have fun/playful/romantic/engaging/amazing times with a man
    I want to interact with a man in a way that is fulfilling/affirming/empowering/enriching/etc
    I want to be able to bring my best self into interaction with a man, even under difficult circumstances
    I want to be known fully to a man
    I want to be able to own who I am and what I desire in the presence of someone that matters to me
    I want to share intimately with a man
    I want to own and express my sexuality fully with a man
    I want to create sexually fulfilling experiences with a man
    I want to love and cherish a man and receive well what he gives to me
    I want to give and receive affection/adoration/delight/compassion/kindness/etc with a man
    I want to give of myself to a man while still taking care of myself
    I want to try and understand what is going on in the life of another and connect to who they are
    I want to get better at working with where others are and with what others have to share

    This puts more focus on the part you bring to any interaction/relationship and it highlights the possibility that you can get better at what you have to bring.

    • @HereIAM

      +1 on the list of qualities one seeks in an interaction.

  • szopen

    @HereIAm
    That’s nice, but the same list can create an attitude when you do not actually get into LTRs, since you missed the line “I want to avoid douchebags, PUAs and others who want to share my sexuality with them, but intend to abandon me in future”

    @methods of meeting the guy
    “Introduced by rabbi” made my day 🙂

  • Sassy,

    Are you on the sauce again? 🙂

    … buy me a beer, and I’ll tell you …

  • mr. wavevector

    @davidvs

    >This research suggests that benevolent male dominance
    > is superior to the straight up alpha behavior of displaying
    > higher value in this situation.

    Yes. First Timothy 5:2. Treat younger women as sisters.

    I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve gotten dangerously close to affairs with younger women whom I approached as friends but unintentionally triggered a sexual / romantic response in. Accidental game, I guess. It was unexpected because I was actually trying not to express any romantic or sexual interest because I didn’t want to be “creepy” and was downplaying any dominance so as to be “just friends”. I was trying to treat them like a kindly uncle would a niece. I guess that’s somewhat similar to the older brother & younger sister dynamic, but less familiar.

    I think I sparked their interest because despite my efforts I ended up displaying the BMD. I established a good emotional connection – letting them talk about themselves and showing good emotional understanding. I was already so situationally dominant that my efforts to diminish my dominance were ineffective. As a result I found myself in friendships with younger women who were giving me overt signs of sexual interest – despite my lack of either youth or beauty.

    That was not what I was going for. But if I had been a single man I would have been thrilled!

    Getting back to the theme of this thread – “how to meet guys after college” – young men who want a girlfriend and aspiring to BMD may have to work harder at presenting a credible level of dominance. But they should not let the pursuit of “alpha” distract them from the importance of their emotional skills.

  • HereIAm, that was a very thoughtful post. My “alpha penis” quip probably was misleading as she is not having sex with any of these guys as far as I know. She has found a niche as the busty hot tomgirl who “relates well to male hobbies and interests” and her social scene now frequently involves her being out as one of 2-3 girls in a group of maybe a dozen guys, doing activities that I suppose are more traditionally male-oriented (sports bars, deep-sea fishing, etc.).

    The biggest cost to her—a cost she doesn’t care about at all, but perhaps most women would—seems to be that she represents an existential threat to some other women and they now avoid/criticize her. She has almost no feeling of solidarity with other females.

    IME, a group of activist women—particularly 2nd Wave feminists—have a kind of Union Card mentality in which a woman in the SMP has her appearance and behavior monitored by a sort of secret police force, and her ability to negotiate attention/relationship terms with men is subordinate to collective bargaining agreements “for all Womankind” led by self-proclaimed union bosses like Amanda Marcotte.

    It seems to me that there can be this pressure to find an LTR mate on quasi-feminist terms (in which direct sex appeal is muted) rather than just to figure out what guys want via “revealed preference” studies and market directly to the evidence. So my friend would no doubt be seen a traitor with low self-esteem who is catering to oppressive patriarchal instincts that objectify women, promote a destructive “porn Barbie” look, and so on. It is like she in some way betrays or undercuts the efforts of other women, and that men should be subject to strategic concessions rather than being allowed to have too much free fun staring at impressive cleavage or hearing a hot girl talk enthusiastically about her favorite Marvel superheroes or muscle cars or the UFC. Needless to say that she is adored by a big band of guys and a man who mistreated her or called her a slut or something would get his ass kicked really, really badly.

    I don’t know if she really did have these interests when she first started her study of the red-blooded American male, but she seems to be genuinely interested in these topics now. She had an alpha dad (Marine Corps Infantry officer) and grew up with 3 older brothers, so that may be part of it. I don’t know if this will all lead to an LTR-marriage-babies, but so far it looks like it is working.

    • @BB

      She has found a niche as the busty hot tomgirl who “relates well to male hobbies and interests” and her social scene now frequently involves her being out as one of 2-3 girls in a group of maybe a dozen guys, doing activities that I suppose are more traditionally male-oriented (sports bars, deep-sea fishing, etc.).

      In my experience, it’s not the female’s attractiveness to men that alienates other women – let’s face it, most of us want to be a part of that girl’s crowd – a lady in waiting, so to speak.

      It her clear and total disinterest in sharing emotional intimacy with other females. Your friend has submerged herself in male culture without regard for female friendship or companionship. Clearly, her past relationships, now ended, were superficial and not deep bonds. Lifelong friends don’t stop loving each other when one gets a boob job and takes up karate.

      The fact that she has no residual feminine relationships or interests strikes me as sort of sad.

      If it wasn’t clear in my previous comment, she’s fishing for an LTR in heavily infested STR waters.

  • Abbot

    “Women often appear mercenary, bratty and entitled in online profiles.”

    Yes, that is common and pervasive and well after bedding numerous men who were happily not subject to such boner-killing rants. Is that a reflection of how these women really are? Is it an obvious indication that women still dont know how men think or they just dont care how men think? Are they holding on to anger and bitterness after years of not getting what they want from men? A quick read of dating profiles from women who live in numerous other countries reveals glaring differences from those in the West. Very telling indeed…

  • Man

    @davidvs:

    Roosh’s book (which I mini-reviewed above) discusses when and how to transition from small talk to personal questions.

    Thanks. I might have a look. But usually I know when it’s time to make a transition. I was just more interested in the women’s perspective. But I think that Mr. WV has just nailed it at #65 with the so called BMD traits, respecting her emotional boundaries, taking it slow, etc. Actually every situation is unique. It’s not possible to follow a script. We have to follow the rhythm, just like in a dance. I like to be in touch with my feelings at all times and also go with the flow. It may work for both of us and be a great “mating dance”; or it may not and we look for another mate.

    @Gorg. #54 and #55. Very good advice for men in the corporate world. We should never forget we’re still under the dictatorship of feminazism. 🙂

  • Man

    It is essential to first spend time in groups, interact professionally and platonically, etc. Any attempt to bring the relationship to a personal level must be done offsite in a social setting. And no touching at all for four months.

    I hear what you’re saying, but for those who want to marry, the fact that 20% of marriages comes from work dating is huge. I think it can be done, though it does require caution.

    +1 I do so, if I am interested in someone, being very careful to preserve the good professional relationship. We have to thread very carefully and evaluate possible outcomes if the the relationship does not work out. 🙂

  • Man

    It’s the Pretend Asshole thing again.

    I think that “pluralistic ignorance” is overwhelming nowadays, on both sides.

  • Man

    Just a note to newcomers: when I talk about approaching the restricted/mom types, I am just talking specifically and only about their socio-sexuality orientation and also her EI level (mating/bonding potential as I see it) as more or less explained in this article: Individual Traits Trump Sex Differences in Determining Relationship Success and the previous one about monogamous men. I think the same patterns are applicable to women, regarding their mating/bonding potential.

  • Escoffier

    BB, I see (I guess) how what you described might work for a “niche” as you say. But as general advice, it’s going to fail more often than it succeeds. Probably a lot more.

    BTW, do I have this right? On online dating sites, there are two boxes, STR and LTR. If a guy checks STR, it means he’s a player. If he clicks LTR, it means he’s a needy clinger. So the only wise choice is to click both?

    • If a guy checks STR, it means he’s a player. If he clicks LTR, it means he’s a needy clinger. So the only wise choice is to click both?

      You can also check the platonic friendship box, which really confuses women!

      Actually, I think that people should check what they are genuinely interested in. It serves as an excellent filter. I think many women would appreciate the LTR box only option, and not view him as a needy clinger. But once again the casual sex culture rears its ugly head and guys assume they’ll be perceived the wrong way if they don’t indicate they want casual.

      From what I’ve heard, guys who check short-term only do fine – with women down for that.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ HereIAm May 15, 2013 at 2:25 am

    I think your comment is very insightful for your emphasis of the interaction and the give and take in a relationship. However, some of your statements still evince a characterisitic female self centeredness. I am not putting you down – I think this so-called “female solipsism” is natural, normal and even necessary; a woman needs to have certain emotional requirements met in a relationship. However, I think you would do well to extended your emotional reach even further towards the man in your relationship. I’ve added a few suggestions to your list (in italics):

    I want to create/have fun/playful/romantic/engaging/amazing times with a man
    I want to interact with a man in a way that is fulfilling/affirming/empowering/enriching/etc for both of us
    I want to be able to bring my best self into interaction with a man, even under difficult circumstances
    I want to be able to inspire a man to show me his best self to me
    I want to be known fully to a man
    I want to fully know a man
    I want to be able to own who I am and what I desire in the presence of someone that matters to me
    I want to encourage a man to be comfortable in who he his and in his desires
    I want to share intimately with a man
    I want to own and express my sexuality fully with a man
    I want a man to fully share his sexuality with me
    I want to create mutually sexually fulfilling experiences with a man
    I want to love and cherish a man and receive well what he gives to me
    I want to love and cherish a man and give fully of myself to him
    I want to give and receive affection/adoration/delight/compassion/kindness/etc with a man
    I want to give of myself to a man while still taking care of myself
    I want to try and understand what is going on in the life of another and connect to who they are
    I want to get better at working with where others are and with what others have to share

    This puts even more focus on the part you bring to any interaction/relationship and it highlights the possibility that you can get better at what you have to bring.

  • Man

    Good review about David Roosh’s “Day Bang”. It’s just how I view PUA stuff and tactics/scripts. Not a path for authenticity and freedom, and meaningful relationships.

  • Jackie

    @Bastiat

    Bastiat, I confess that the feeling evoked by your post is not of “existential threat” but, rather, pity. You have written nothing about the interior life about your friend, but devoted reams of virtual ink to her catering to pretty stereotypical tropes of male sexuality.

    Maybe for some people a boob job and watching porn in seeking to become a wife constitutes accomplishment, but I think to many people –women and men– it’s pretty sad. And, going by your lengthy response conflating judgment of this woman’s behavior with second-wave feminism, is it possible that the one who is the most reactionary to the criticism is YOU? 😉

    When I was at my dad’s this weekend, I picked up a book from a box downstairs. The name of the book is “The Stepford Wives” and the premise is there is a mysterious hamlet in Connecticut where all the women are (SPOILER) eventually turned into Real-Doll sexbot housewives. It is supposed to be a modern-day horror story.

  • Jackie

    @BB

    Bastiat, I know my above post was pretty harsh. But my concern is your friend actions seem to value “being paid attention to” instead being loved. They are two very different things.

    When I see people going to the point of having surgeons rip open their chest to stuff bags of saline inside — something that could really hurt them– to be attractive, it just feels really wrong to me. The human body is an amazing gift and modifying it beyond the point of no return just seems “off” to me (though our culture obviously disagrees). Hair can grow back and makeup can wash off, you know?

    It just seems, to me, that your friend has her focus on delineating anything unique about herself in the interest of appealing to the broadest possible population base.

    How will she know she is loved for herself if she doesn’t even know who she is anymore? Beyond a male fantasy, I mean? Isn’t the biggest quest of our lives to “know thyself”?

  • PrairieDog

    Susan,
    Meeting someone through ‘friends and family’ sounds good, but my experience is that while people will be glad to introduce you to someone they happen to know that is single(and of the gender you are interested in), they are unlikely to go out and beat the bushes on your behalf to find one. If you don’t know any suitable single men/women, is it realistic to expect the other people in your life to know some that you don’t.
    I hate to say it, but single people who live, work and play in social and geographical situations in which they will actually need help finding someone are the least likely to get that help. A single person is much more likely to be introduced or ‘fixed up’ in situations where there is a bigger pool of singles and a 50/50 sex ratio.

    • @Prairie Dog

      If you don’t know any suitable single men/women, is it realistic to expect the other people in your life to know some that you don’t.

      Think of it like the rings of a tree trunk. Your immediate family, then good friends, then acquaintances, etc. You’re unlikely to get much from the first two or three rings. You need to network your way out to the exterior rings – friends at work, people you meet at a party, someone in a class, etc. And then the people they know, and the people the people they know, know, and so on.

  • Escoffier

    By Ira Levin, also the author of Rosemary’s Baby (and some other memorable, and not so memorable, books).

    SW is really a 70s relic though (even though there have been two movies, one quite recently). It was MEANT as horror and to show how evil men are but a lot of men read it and said “This sounds great!!” Levin was not amused.

    • It was MEANT as horror and to show how evil men are but a lot of men read it and said “This sounds great!!” Levin was not amused.

      That’s hilarious! Sounds like Levin is a mangina…

  • Escoffier

    Jackie, I don’t think what BB described is a “male fantasy” so much as it is “some men’s fantasy”, a certain type of man, which perhaps makes the story all the more poignant from your perspective.

  • Escoffier

    Why would you go on a “dating” site and check the “Platonic friendship” box?

    Actually, it makes me wonder whether the boxes do any good at all. As you say, ST seeking ST probably works quite well but for everyone else it sounds like a mess.

    • Why would you go on a “dating” site and check the “Platonic friendship” box?

      I don’t know! It’s a feature of OKCupid – maybe people move to a new city and seek new friends? Anyway, I’ve been asked several times to look at guys’ profiles to translate what he was looking for. It’s hopeless when they check everything. In those cases, I’ve had the distinct feeling the guy was a player, and it was the LTR box that was the lie.

      SayWhaat may have better info, she’s done OKCupid before.

  • Escoffier

    Couldn’t say about Levin. That particular book is definitely a relic of second wave feminism. Rosemary’s Baby is great. Boys from Brazil is campy fun. Kiss Before Dying is good too, and the movie had Robert Wagner as the villian. Who knew that years later he would actually kill Natalie Wood? (j/k)

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “The human body is an amazing gift and modifying it beyond the point of no return just seems “off” to me (though our culture obviously disagrees). Hair can grow back and makeup can wash off, you know?”

    Debatable.
    The value of the gifts range along a spectrum (with different values in different areas). Some people will have bodies with a net value of zero. Fact of life.

    Its unsurprising that the most influential area (looks) is the one people are willing to work hard at and modify.

    It produces the greatest payout.

  • SayWhaat

    Why would you go on a “dating” site and check the “Platonic friendship” box?

    I don’t know! It’s a feature of OKCupid – maybe people move to a new city and seek new friends?

    Yes, some people use it as a means of meeting new people after moving to a new city (common in NYC), some use it ostensibly to make more friends (like my attention-whore gf – lol), some even use it to drum up groupies for their band’s gigs!

    At any rate, I do think that guys on OKC who are looking for a long-term relationship will also check “short-term dating” for a number of reasons. Perhaps they just slap it up there because they’ll take whatever comes their way, or they don’t want to appear needy, etc.

    However, I will immediately DQ any guy who also selects “casual sex”, or only lists short-term dating. That is a big signal that he’s probably more interested in STR and is just willing to “see where it goes” after the deed is done.

    Also, people are more revealing in their match questions than you would think. Probably because there are so many to answer, but I do think a lot of people get lulled into the false sense of security of an online questionnaire. It’s not 100% reliable because people will still be politically correct in their answers (e.g., I made no mention of wanting kids because I knew as a 23yo that would paint me as baby-crazy), but it’s still somewhat useful as a tool for the discerning dater.

  • Escoffier

    Wait, there’s actually a box for “casual sex”?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mr. Wavevector,
    Ref BMD “Ballistic Missile Defense”? Nope. Wrong thread.
    Okay, I got it.
    I ran into the same kind of thing when considerably younger because, due to circumstances not worth describing, I was among a number of attractive young women while completely sans clue about the SMP or much else.
    Hence, there was no tension–for me, anyway–no flop sweat, no terrible non sequiturs, no fumblemumblestumblebumble attempts at conversation. I was so oblivious I was the complete opposite of needy. I was practically advertising surfeit.
    In addition, due to other circs, I was pretty competent and confident in what we were doing–whatever that was in the various situations–and due to still other circs, fit and with the confidence that being in combat sports and martial arts provides. One woman even asked if I’d been in the service, since I had such great posture.
    The whooshing noise you hear is echoes of the IOI passing overhead without leaving a mark.
    If I can think of any one attractor in those situations, it would be the absolute lack of perceived neediness–due to being thick as a brick not, you know, socially successful. ‘parently looked the same.
    Not that it did me as much as one scrap of good.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    Maybe for some people a boob job and watching porn in seeking to become a wife constitutes accomplishment, but I think to many people –women and men– it’s pretty sad.

    I second that. The pursuit of “alpha penis” seems like a misguided goal if that’s what it takes to accomplish it.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Richard,

    The whooshing noise you hear is echoes of the IOI passing overhead without leaving a mark.

    Maybe one of the points of “how to meet guys after college” should be: Make indications of interest that even a clueless dude can understand.

  • Ramble

    Women are often reticent about letting people know they’d like a relationship. It seems pathetic to say “Waaaah, waaaah, I want a boyfriend.”

    It transfers power.

    As you have reported before, men are much more comfortable with the idea of the hookup/ONS/fling/whatever, and that has had an effect on the dating culture.

    To then say, “Well, no, I want a relationship”, means that they are asking for more than what was being offered. And, if you are asking for more, in general, more guys are going to expect more.

    To put it another way, if girls are going to ask guys to be more like gentlemen, then guys are going to expect them to act more like ladies (and less like hard charging, “independent”, “confident” go-getters).

    • To put it another way, if girls are going to ask guys to be more like gentlemen, then guys are going to expect them to act more like ladies (and less like hard charging, “independent”, “confident” go-getters).

      Sounds fair to me.

  • Emily

    I found BB’s story interesting. That girl probably put in way more effort than most of us would be willing to put in ( http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Aint-Nobody-Got-Time-for-That.gif ), but I don’t think it’s a bad idea to develop some male-friendly interests. I think it would make the most sense to adapt your “curriculum” according to the sort of guy that you’re hoping to attract.

  • All that talk made me reactivate my OKC profile as well.

    There definitely is a CS box for people to check; I have rarely seen someone checking just that box as I assume people know they should muddle the waters a bit in order to attract more females.
    I have also seen married couples still on the website looking for dates, polyamorous and stuff of this acabit. Not my cup of tea.

    The city I live in now has so many young people, but their profiles are just horrible as everybody thinks they are that rare pearl of intellect and coolness. I can always tell these guys will be unbearable.

    @BB,

    I really don’t think women see your friend as an existential threat, more like a disaster waiting to happen. The fact is we don’t really know if she’s doing these things because she enjoys it or because it works to get male attention. There is some sort of loss of identity, whatever the identity is, when most feminists actually want women to discover their own identity outside the mother/wife/daughter boxes. So that can be considered as a failure in itself. Also, cutting contact with your gender network is problematic at many levels; it shows an inability to relate to others, to others in your group and also an obliviousness regarding the days when you’ll need the support that only other females can provide. Even other females don’t like to have their friendship neglected. As a personal anecdote, I used to have a female friend of a sexually competitive nature (I may have fabricated some stuff to keep up with her). She’d always disappear when a new man was in her life, and “remember” me when things were not rosy, in order to get some distraction or a shoulder to cry on. Needless to say, feeling used like some “emotional tampon” wasn’t my idea of friendship so I did stop contact. I saw her on facebook, apparently had a kid with one guy and now is married to another, interesting life indeed!

  • SayWhaat

    The whooshing noise you hear is echoes of the IOI passing overhead without leaving a mark.

    Maybe one of the points of “how to meet guys after college” should be: Make indications of interest that even a clueless dude can understand.

    And perhaps guys should also sharpen their social intelligence in this regard. 😉

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t think it’s a bad idea to develop some male-friendly interests. I think it would make the most sense to adapt your “curriculum” according to the sort of guy that you’re hoping to attract.

    Seconded. The challenge is in having male-friendly interests that tend to attract accomplished, intelligent, benevolent men.

  • angelguy

    [Quote]”You can also check the platonic friendship box, which really confuses women!

    Actually, I think that people should check what they are genuinely interested in. It serves as an excellent filter. I think many women would appreciate the LTR box only option, and not view him as a needy clinger. But once again the casual sex culture rears its ugly head and guys assume they’ll be perceived the wrong way if they don’t indicate they want casual.

    From what I’ve heard, guys who check short-term only do fine – with women down for that.[/Quote]

    @Susan

    Everytime a woman checks off platonic, it makes me want to run in the other direction. I have had too many experiences with “platonic”.
    It translates to me: I am going to talk and talk about all my problems to you and listen to none of yours.

    I notice this when they profiles read, I want a friend, meaning Male friend.
    What happened with their female friends?

    Personal feelings aside for a moment, I think one has to be weary when people misrepresent their intentions online.

  • angelguy

    ” if girls are going to ask guys to be more like gentlemen, then guys are going to expect them to act more like ladies (and less like hard charging, “independent”, “confident” go-getters).”

    I wonder which girls are asking, and the type of guys they are with now.
    Would like to do the comparison.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    And perhaps guys should also sharpen their social intelligence in this regard.

    Yes they should. And unlike in Richard’s day, or mine, there are a lot of resources now to help a young man figure that out. Susan is doing her part, for sure!

  • Escoffier

    On-average-in-the-aggregate, though, guys are always going to have lower social intelligence than girls, esp. when it comes to picking up on intra-sexual dynamics. Not fair, maybe, but nobody’s fault.

  • angelguy

    “On-average-in-the-aggregate, though, guys are always going to have lower social intelligence than girls, esp. when it comes to picking up on intra-sexual dynamics. Not fair, maybe, but nobody’s fault.”

    @Escoffier

    I think Men tend to be less social in general, it gets worse as they get older.
    Perhaps, it is because of our natural competitive instincts.

    We could learn a lot from women about social dynamics, whether we are looking for a mate or not.

  • Escoffier

    “I think Men tend to be less social in general, it gets worse as they get older.”

    It’s like you’ve peered into my soul!

  • That girl probably put in way more effort than most of us would be willing to put in ( http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Aint-Nobody-Got-Time-for-That.gif ),

    Lol Emily, my sentiment indeed!

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m81o47GxVK1qaho1po4_250.gif

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mr. W.
    In those days, my social intelligence was probably most closely associated with my shins.
    Using steel toed boots, kick me several times in the shins, grab my shirt front and say, PAY ATTENTION TO ME. DOWN HERE, DUMMY!

  • SayWhaat,

    How many e-mails a day do you get on OKC ?

  • Jonathan

    Re BB’s female friend:

    -Other things equal, a woman who genuinely likes men and being around them is more attractive to men than is a woman who would rather hang out with her girlfriends all of the time.

    -Women who genuinely like men (i.e., for more than instrumental reasons) are in the minority.

    • Other things equal, a woman who genuinely likes men and being around them is more attractive to men than is a woman who would rather hang out with her girlfriends all of the time.

      Makes sense.

      How about this – is a woman who is very feminine in her interests, e.g., yoga, ballet, kindergarten teacher, more or less attractive than a woman who practices martial arts and watches porn?

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “And perhaps guys should also sharpen their social intelligence in this regard.”

    Men face less of an opportunity cost than woman.
    A woman selects from the men who display interest.
    A man can go the lottery ticket method if he can face the rejection.

    Ex. I went to a school with X number of students where X was in the tens of thousands.

    To even attempt to approach every woman (all of the correct age) I would have had to approach something like 150 a day every day with some extra sets in the evening just to get through it. That excludes the women in the surrounding city.

    One good thing about being a guy.
    Women everywhere with zero reason not to give it a go.

    I assume only the highest quality women get that many ACTUAL options.

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat,

    How many e-mails a day do you get on OKC ?

    Hard to say, I haven’t kept track/been deleting a whole bunch. I counted up the number for one day and it was 16.

  • SayWhaat

    -Other things equal, a woman who genuinely likes men and being around them is more attractive to men than is a woman who would rather hang out with her girlfriends all of the time.

    Sure, but men should be very, very wary of a woman who lacks female friends.

    -Women who genuinely like men (i.e., for more than instrumental reasons) are in the minority.

    Untrue.

  • Saywhaat,

    Hard to say, I haven’t kept track/been deleting a whole bunch. I counted up the number for one day and it was 16.

    Do think you can share with this forum some examples of the good, the bad, and the ugly ?

  • 16 a day?

    #mirrorrealitycheck

  • SayWhaat

    Do think you can share with this forum some examples of the good, the bad, and the ugly ?

    Sure! You’ll have to wait until I get home, but I’ll post some screenshots and explain what worked/what was off-putting for each.

  • Sassy6519

    I shut down my online dating profile around 2-3 months ago. It was the best decision for me.

    An important thing about online dating is having the ability to maintain a positive attitude throughout the experience. I wasn’t able to do that, and I began to abhor the online dating experience after awhile. I may return to it one day, so I’m not foregoing that option altogether.

  • I understand what you all are saying about the boob job girl facing some possible probs, but to be honest she seems to be doing quite well right now in terms of legit LTR prospects. I will of course report back with the results either way.

    I am not sure how much of this apparent recent success and popularity is due to the large breasts/sexy appearance, how much is due to her interest in traditional “guy” stuff and ability to talk about these topics in a credible way (we once had a debate about the original line-up of the X-Men and she won), and how much is due to the extremely favorable m-f ratio created by the MMA social circle that she inhabits.

    During her pre-boob job research, she asked another woman who had undergone breast augmentation for advice. That woman told her not to do it because of lower back pain, painful recovery, effect on some sports, and because it appealed to lowest common denominator male behavior and looked slutty.

    So my friend goes ahead and gets a boob job, and sees this other woman out a few weeks ago. The other woman—unsurprisingly—is wearing a very low cut top and proudly displaying lots of cleavage. When my friend tells her that she went ahead and had the boob job, she does so almost apologetically because she knows that she failed to follow the woman’s advice and feels embarrassed. The woman’s response was something like, “Oh, I just said that negative stuff to discourage you because I didn’t really want the competition. Now that you’ve had it done, I can tell you that I love my boobs.”

    I know that it is better to be loved for who one truly is then for becoming a cartoon version of oneself, but it does seem like women will be hard on another woman who attempts to give guys what they want (in this case, a sort of St. Pauli Girl beer commercial fantasy babe that shares their interests), but will freely give guys all kinds of advice on how they can change to give women what they want.

  • mr. wavevector

    On-average-in-the-aggregate, though, guys are always going to have lower social intelligence than girls, esp. when it comes to picking up on intra-sexual dynamics.

    Meh. I think the social intelligence of girls is over-rated. From what I see, they’re as clueless as the boys. They just have different style of clueless.

  • Escoffier

    I wonder, though, how many guys really want that? I would bet they are outnumbered by guys who want a more stereotypically feminine woman. So, this is a limiting strategy in two senses: it limits the woman to a smaller subset of men, and a subset with certain traits. If she loves those traits, then it might work. If not …

  • Sassy6519

    From my understanding about the appeal of boob jobs, there seems to be much variation in male opinions.

    Some men love fake boobs. Some men absolutely detest fake boobs. Some men like both.

    I’ve heard some guys fawn all over a fake pair, while other guys hate the way that breast implants look and/or feel. Tastes vary, and a wide variety of women appeal to a wide variety of men.

    I’m pretty sure that if one guy does not like 1 set of boobs, several other guys will.

    I don’t feel ill will towards women who get boob jobs, per se. Do I think that the procedures are mostly unnecessary? Yes. Would I ever get a boob job? Hell no. Do I feel the need to compete against women who do get breast jobs? No. I’m pretty ambivalent towards them, to be honest.

  • Escoffier

    wave, in this specific context–picking up on attraction cues–the girls generally do better and always will.

  • I’ve opened an OKC profile. Thanks ladies. There are lots women in my area. Now move your arse, SayWhaat. I’m so hard on you becuase Iwanna plagiarize your best profiles am doing this as a public service to all men OKC men on HUS.

  • @BB,

    The woman’s response was something like, “Oh, I just said that negative stuff to discourage you because I didn’t really want the competition. Now that you’ve had it done, I can tell you that I love my boobs.”

    Wow, that’s the type of hyper competitiveness I can’t stand. I actively avoid women who behave that way.

  • Cooper

    “On-average-in-the-aggregate, though, guys are always going to have lower social intelligence than girls, esp. when it comes to picking up on intra-sexual dynamics. Not fair, maybe, but nobody’s fault.”

    I was watching When Harry Met Sally with my girlfriend a couple days ago. (Five years apart, and it amazes me what films/Tv she hasn’t so much as heard of)
    During the part where Billy Crystal is explain why men and women can’t be friends. And my gf says, “that’s not true I have male friends, whom with I am just-friends” ahah, missing the point of the scene entirely.

  • @ Marellus,

    This guy emailed yesterday; his profile shows him in several photos accompanied with a very beautiful asian woman, especially in a photobooth being silly and kissing on the cheek (?????????); oh yeah, also a glorious pic of his well defined abs.

    My self-summary
    Do people even read these?

    What I’m doing with my life
    I am a school crossing guard, subway sandwich artist, and an avid speed dater. It’s the life many often fantasize about.

    I’m really good at
    Being negative. Its a gift

    The first things people usually notice about me
    Break dancing moves, they are like no other in the midwest

    Favorite books, movies, shows, music, and food
    I cannot read so that is a bit of a snag. I like several movies mostly comedies. The only 2 shows i actually watch are the office and seinfeld

    The six things I could never do without
    jump rope
    flip phone
    teeth
    betty white portrait
    the other 2 are very personal

    I spend a lot of time thinking about
    who is this person laying next to me…

    On a typical Friday night I am
    doing laundry. I love Friday’s

    The most private thing I’m willing to admit
    Clueless is one of my favorite movies…

    I’m looking for
    Girls who like guys
    Ages 18–40
    Near me
    For new friends, long-term dating, short-term dating, activity partners

    You should message me if
    not sure why u wouldn’t…

    He wants me to call him for salsa; I think I will… in 10 years

    • @Mireille

      Is that a real profile for a guy? My face flushed with embarrassment on his behalf reading that. Painful.

  • HTML fail!

  • Escoffier

    Cooper, while that scene is very funny (I am so old I saw that in a theater on release, on a date, no less), I think it’s off-base.

    Most girls, from what I have read in their own words, can absolutely tell when a male friend is into them. It’s the friend-zoned men who more often than not cannot tell that they have no shot.

    • Most girls, from what I have read in their own words, can absolutely tell when a male friend is into them. It’s the friend-zoned men who more often than not cannot tell that they have no shot.

      There are some studies on this. Girls routinely underestimate their guy friends’ interest in them. Guys routinely overestimate their girl friends’ interest in them.

      There was that video someone posted, though, where the girls, when grilled, admitted they knew their guy friend was attracted to them.

      On the other hand, girls understand very well that most guys want to have sex with most girls, so his attraction is easily dismissed.

  • Emily

    >> “I’ve heard some guys fawn all over a fake pair, while other guys hate the way that breast implants look and/or feel. Tastes vary, and a wide variety of women appeal to a wide variety of men.”

    My initial instinct is that fake breasts and the “fake” look in general is more attractive to guys of lower SES, although YMMV as usual. I feel like they would hurt more than they would help in attracting the right sort of guy.

  • mr. wavevector

    Escoffier,

    wave, in this specific context–picking up on attraction cues–the girls generally do better and always will.

    Yes, I agree with that, because females are the primary object of attraction.

  • Lokland

    On Boob jobs.

    I think they come with a higher risk of divorce (woman files).
    (Perhaps that is only if they were in a relationship prior.)

    I’ve only seen one pair not on a screen and wasn’t particularly impressed. The curve didn’t mesh with her body shape well. It seemed unnatural.

    I’m happy with my wife’s B cups.

  • mr. wavevector

    IMO:

    small boobs > fake boobs

    small boobs = can’t have everything, no big deal

    fake boobs = questions about priorities and character

  • Lokland

    @BB

    “but it does seem like women will be hard on another woman who attempts to give guys what they want (in this case, a sort of St. Pauli Girl beer commercial fantasy babe that shares their interests), but will freely give guys all kinds of advice on how they can change to give women what they want.”

    I think there is a demarcation here.
    I’ve seen women praise traits in other women and/or recommend it whereas others have gone out of their way to make life more difficult for other women.

    Part of this was already being in a relationship.
    Those women already in a relationship were more likely to give out genuinely helpful advice. The more serious the relationship the better the advice.

    (OTOH I can think of an experience where one woman who was engaged totally trashed her best friends dating potential.)

    Another is age.
    I’ve noticed women of older generations who are no longer competing (for the same men) seem to have no problem offering useful advice.

    OTOH, I can think of a bunch of crones incapable of offering good advice but who seem to enjoy providing advice that got them into spinsterhood.

    Theres probably a separation based upon personality traits and whether or not the two women are competing against each other directly for the same men.

  • Lokland

    @mr WV.

    “fake boobs = questions about priorities and character”

    Didn’t look at the link.
    +1

  • Escoffier

    Emily makes a good point, gals.

  • Mireille

    Here goes my written profile :

    My self-summary
    I’m an 8-inch pygmy with a 9-inch erection, with 10 good reasons to give you 11 … ahem … seconds to run away … run along now my darling … I’m a very bad man … oh ???? … still here ?! … you’re a crazy woman … I’m gonna write a long angry letter to your mother if you don’t go … I mean it …

    Still here ?

    When you ate your Corn Flakes this morning, did you check the expiry date perchance ?

    Really ?

    I believe you.

    What I’m doing with my life
    Finishing my degree.

    I’m really good at
    … making women run …

    Don’t believe me ?

    I’m gonna press your face in my armpit !!!!

    The first things people usually notice about me
    … is my knockout armpits …

    Favorite books, movies, shows, music, and food
    Anything written by Terry Pratchett.

    The six things I could never do without
    1) Cigarettes (yep, I’m a smoker … it’s because of a Divine Commandment given to me by His Excellency the Smorgasm Bethewling King Borogoro of Vamooshaland … don’t ask … it’s a long story)

    2) A lighter

    3) An undiplomatic comment

    4) A grin

    5) The resultant emergency aid

    6) The quickest way to the hospital

    I spend a lot of time thinking about
    … oh you should know this one my darling. It’s what all men want from women … and do you know how I like it ?

    With lots of milk and a spoonful of sugar !!!

    … coffee my darling … I was referring to coffee.

    Were you thinking of something else perhaps ?

    Oh pleeheese do tell … I’m very curious …

    On a typical Friday night I am
    … winding up women on comment threads in gender blogs …

    The most private thing I’m willing to admit
    I don’t snore … really … I promise … I pinky swear … with sugar on top … King Borogoro will back me up on this … and his wife as well !!!!

    Now why don’t you believe me ?????

    Really madam, I’m just gonna have to let the manufacturers of your Corn Flakes know, that you actually ate it.

    They’re gonna send you a box of Rice Krispies.

    I know, it’s a terrible thing to do to you … but sadly, I’m left with no choice …

    I’m looking for
    Girls who like guys
    Ages 23–43
    Located anywhere
    For long-term dating, long-distance penpals

    You should message me if
    … you actually read this far … coz you’re just as ditzy as my mom … I love that woman.

    I’ll admit this is a high risk profile Mireille, and I’ll not have it any other way.

  • Re: boob jobs. I’d say to follow the money and look at the available evidence in terms of male prosocial behaviors as responses to various observed breast sizes (how men are calculating tips, holding doors, stopping for hitchhikers, eye-tracking studies, beauty pageant winners, etc.)—regardless of your feelings on the matter, it’s fascinating stuff!

  • Sassy6519

    Re: boob jobs. I’d say to follow the money and look at the available evidence in terms of male prosocial behaviors as responses to various observed breast sizes (how men are calculating tips, holding doors, stopping for hitchhikers, eye-tracking studies, beauty pageant winners, etc.)—regardless of your feelings on the matter, it’s fascinating stuff!

    Pfffffffft!!!

    I guess this means that men should strive to get penis enlargement surgery as well.

  • Emily

    >> ” I’d say to follow the money and look at the available evidence in terms of male prosocial behaviors as responses to various observed breast sizes (how men are calculating tips, holding doors, stopping for hitchhikers, eye-tracking studies, beauty pageant winners, etc.)—regardless of your feelings on the matter, it’s fascinating stuff!”

    I think it’s more sensible to look at who the accomplished men are marrying. It’s almost never the cocktail waitress.

  • Gin Martini

    No, Sassy, abs, height, and dominance. Generally, the penis is not visible during most restaurant transactions.

    Not all boob jobs look fake. You’d be surprised how many get “stealth upgrades” and opt for the low-projection look, which (to me) looks better than the fake look. One consultation at a surgeon’s office, and you’d understand.

  • Sassy, Emily—all good points. This is truly a complex, multi-layered subject.

  • mr. wavevector

    I think it’s more sensible to look at who the accomplished men are marrying. It’s almost never the cocktail waitress.

    Exactly. That’s the male prosocial behavior that this blog’s audience is interested in.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Gin Martini

    No, Sassy, abs, height, and dominance. Generally, the penis is not visible during most restaurant transactions.

    Not all boob jobs look fake. You’d be surprised how many get “stealth upgrades” and opt for the low-projection look, which (to me) looks better than the fake look. One consultation at a surgeon’s office, and you’d understand.

    1. I have zero interest in getting any work done, boobs or otherwise, thank you.

    2. Women actually do take great notice of men’s packages, clothed or not. If you think that women don’t check out male crotches to guess what they are working with, you are dead wrong. This doesn’t even account for the other methods that women try to ascertain penis size. The “size of a man’s hands” and “size of a man’s feet” beliefs don’t exist for nothing.

    3. I don’t care how “not fake” they look. They are fake. The woman’s genetic makeup doesn’t change due to surgery. She was born with small tits. She can try to hide it, but her “small tit” genes may still be passed on.

    4. I find it funny that any man can suggest breast surgery so cavalierly on the basis of tipping opportunities and hitchhiking success rates. Please, spare me.

    5. It’s really easy for men to just say “get a boob job”, when they are not the people who actually have to have their bodies cut open, risk death and a multitude of other boob job related ailments, painful recovery time, and exorbitant medical bills. Seriously, why on earth would any of the women here want to rack up $15,000-$30,000 worth of debt for a boob job?

    6. Penile lengthening surgery would be the equivalent. It is a cosmetic surgery performed for the enjoyment of the opposite sex and to boost self-esteem. Clearly breasts are important, I understand that. Dicks are also important. Typically, women give more attention to men with big dicks. Even men who are rumored to have big dicks get more attention. I’ve heard a few men on this very thread lament about the threat of “bigger dicked” males beating them in mating-related competition. Fuck phantoms of “big dicked” males are not uncommon.

    7. The equivalent of men working on their bodies, abs, or confidence levels would be women exercising their pectoral muscles to gain size in the breast area, wearing pushup bras, doing breast exercises (I’m reminded of the scene in the movie Grease), or taking those pills that supposedly increase bust size.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ya got enough defenses up to make the Maginot Line look like a toll booth

  • Sassy,

    This doesn’t even account for the other methods that women try to ascertain penis size. The “size of a man’s hands” and “size of a man’s feet” beliefs don’t exist for nothing.

    Can you explain a bit more about these metrics please.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “I don’t care how “not fake” they look. They are fake. The woman’s genetic makeup doesn’t change due to surgery. She was born with small tits. She can try to hide it, but her “small tit” genes may still be passed on.”

    +1
    Change may for will however.

    ——

    “would be women exercising their pectoral muscles to gain size in the breast ”

    Not an expert (OTC and Mike C are if I remember correctly) but a woman working her pecs actually tightens the muscles which pulls the boobs up.

    I believe it sacrifices some size for perkiness.

    Note: Not a clue if thats true or not its what some trainer at the gym told me some time.

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Ya got enough defenses up to make the Maginot Line look like a toll booth

    What are you referring to with this comment?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “How about this – is a woman who is very feminine in her interests, e.g., yoga, ballet, kindergarten teacher, more or less attractive than a woman who practices martial arts and watches porn?”

    Attractive, no.
    Loveable, yes.

    A bubbly girly girl is more pleasant to be around because it increases the polarity in the relationship and that feminine vulnerability tends to trigger the ‘protector-provider I’m the man’ instinct. Thats a feeling that is very good. By far one of the best that I’ve experienced in my lifetime.

    However, a hypothetical women is no more attractive in either case because her facial features, body type etc. are all identical.

  • Cooper

    @Mireille

    I hate to say, but I have a feeling that profile would work wonders…

  • J

    The preferred word is “flight attendant.”
    I personally think it’s stupid, but then again, male/female relations here in America are stupid.

    But half of the “stewardesses” are males now.

  • I feel like I am taking on the mantle of boob job advocacy. FWIW, I’m not suggesting that anyone get or not get a boob job. Obviously this is a very personal decision that should be made in private consultation with qualified medical personnel, etc.

    Are (well-done) boob jobs effective in increasing SMV? I am interested in hearing opinions on this.

    Re: those who get them. Some women just aren’t happy with a small rack. The boob-job recipients that I am familiar with had basically tried to max out everything that they could achieve through exercise, nutrition, wardrobe, etc., but they were hyper-competitive and still wanted big boobs.

    Sometimes this was directly to increase immediate “pow!” factor male attention, but sometimes—at least in my limited experience—it was indirectly motivated because the women worked in fields that had a pronounced aesthetic component. Those fields could be high-SES ranked (network anchorwoman), or perhaps a bit more modest in sophistication (Hooters waitress), but the common thread seemed to be that they involved social circles in which female intrasexual competition was very intense. My speculation would thus be that in areas where this type of localized, aggressive competition increases, boob job frequency and possibly implant size will also begin to increase.

    • Some women just aren’t happy with a small rack. The boob-job recipients that I am familiar with had basically tried to max out everything that they could achieve through exercise, nutrition, wardrobe, etc., but they were hyper-competitive and still wanted big boobs.

      I can understand a small-breasted woman wanting to get augmentation. I have to wonder, though, what percentage go for the full Hooters treatment – DD+.
      I tried to find some stats on this, but couldn’t. I do know that breast reduction is not uncommon for women who have breasts that size naturally. I’m inclined to agree with the idea that past a C, cup size is inversely correlated with status.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marellus

    Can you explain a bit more about these metrics please.

    Sure.

    Women, over the years and today, put stock in the belief that one can estimate/gauge the size of a man’s penis by studying his hands and feet. It is believed that men with big hands and big feet have big penises. There is also the study of finger digit ratios at women’s disposals now, which is surprisingly more accurate than studying the size of a man’s hands alone.

    It gives women a sense of calm to believe that they can ascertain the size of a man’s “equipment” before getting him naked. It’s a way of cutting corners by saving time.

    Honestly, this feeling may not be strong in all women, but I admit always being a little worried before seeing a guy naked for the first time. I’m kind of a “size queen”, so I’m always silently praying that I’m not disappointed whenever a man takes off his pants for the first time.

  • Sassy,

    There is also the study of finger digit ratios at women’s disposals now, which is surprisingly more accurate than studying the size of a man’s hands alone.

    I knew about the hands and feet thingy. But this ? How does this work ?

  • J

    After six months, she basically can hardly walk in any direction without tripping over an offered alpha penis.

    Yeah, I’m not that’s a great goal for most women. While most guys envy that alpha male, most women don’t want to live with the BS that accompanies an “alpha” husband.

  • Susan, to be fair I think that you should also ask if the woman who is interested in yoga, ballet, and kindergarten is generally going to meet more men during the course of those activities than is the woman who is doing Muay Thai classes, getting a boob job, and going to sports bars or to see violent and heroic movies.

    • @BB

      Susan, to be fair I think that you should also ask if the woman who is interested in yoga, ballet, and kindergarten is generally going to meet more men during the course of those activities than is the woman who is doing Muay Thai classes, getting a boob job, and going to sports bars or to see violent and heroic movies.

      Well, that’s another question. Is she immersing herself in male culture and ditching female friends to increase the number of men she meets? Or to increase her level of attractiveness to men in general?

      I can’t speak for most men, but reading your description I could only picture Hillary Swank in Million Dollar Baby. Tough broad. I wonder what percentage of men are willing to offer more than penis to the tomgirl.

      BTW, 12 guys came over to help her decorate? I can’t imagine more chump-like behavior! It sounds like a bad reality show. Actually, that’s not a bad idea.

  • Escoffier

    Well the penis analogy fails because all penis enlargement methods are frauds whereas boob jobs are known to work.

    Not that I have looked into this extensively, I hasten to add.

    Still anti-fake tits, always will be.

  • mr. wavevector

    @Susan,

    How about this – is a woman who is very feminine in her interests, e.g., yoga, ballet, kindergarten teacher, more or less attractive than a woman who practices martial arts and watches porn?

    The more masculine a woman’s activities are, the higher the bar she is setting for the masculinity of the men to approach her. A martial arts fighting, porn watching, whiskey drinking woman is going to attract those highly masculine alpha types like Bastiat. The rest of us will pass.

    Here’s why. Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them. Men know this and look for a woman they have a chance at topping. They also evaluate what type of competition they are likely to face in that attempt, should they make it.

    I’ll give you a much nerdlier example. Before we started dating, I was at a party at my future wife’s apartment. I noticed she had a Unix terminal in her living room. This was the days before the internet – having a Unix terminal at home meant you were a pretty serious nerd. That was attractive, but I had a doubt. What if she’s more of a power nerd than me? Then I won’t be able to top her. So I remark on the terminal, show interest, ask a few questions. She wasn’t that impressive technically. What a relief! I

    The kindergarten teacher isn’t ever going to have that problem – unless she knife fights as a hobby.

    The usual feminist characterization of this behavior is “men are intimidated by strong women”. Not true. Men are very aware of female mate preferences, that’s all. No man wants to get shot down, especially if emasculation is part of the deal.

    • Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them. Men know this and look for a woman they have a chance at topping. They also evaluate what type of competition they are likely to face in that attempt, should they make it.

      But would they want the whiskey drinking, porn watching, martial arts fighting woman if they could keep her? I’m trying to get a sense of how highly men value femininity. It’s not possible to be feminine and engage in these activities – I think the word “coarse” applies here.

      One of my focus groups is made up mostly of women who majored in education. According to them, reporting their profession to a guy is an “instant boner maker.” I believe it. Do alpha types like feminine women less than other men? Or do all men want the tough broad with the DDs?

  • Sassy6519
  • Sassy,

    … send me a bill.

  • J

    Who knew that years later he would actually kill Natalie Wood? (j/k)

    You believe this and distrust the DNA evidence surounding the Jefferson/Hemings thing??????

    @Jonathan

    Other things equal, a woman who genuinely likes men and being around them is more attractive to men than is a woman who would rather hang out with her girlfriends all of the time.

    This is true. IME men like to hang around women who genuinely enjoy male company and conversation, especially if they are feminine looking.

    -Women who genuinely like men (i.e., for more than instrumental reasons) are in the minority.

    Actually I think a lot of tomboyish women who like male company are often ignored by men.

  • Cooper

    Aah, the ol’ size discussion 😛

    I’ll never forget when a girl (a close friend, believe it or not) asserted (towards her gal pals) I must have a small package due to the fact that I was (unquestionably) so nervous in flirting with her…

    Oddly, it was as if she was truly trying to provoke me into ‘stepping up’ – what a poor attempt that was..

  • HereIAm

    @szopen #64

    The list wasn’t meant to be comprehensive or a “solution” but rather some examples of how to look at what you want in a way that might be more constructive than saying “I want a boyfriend”, etc.

    So you could certainly add your statement to it although as I look at the list I have already taken care of this under the more general statement “I want to give of myself to a man while still taking care of myself”.

    But to speak more directly to your point – I think if the woman is going to have uncommitted sex it is on her to own that risk and that responsibility so I might say something like:
    I want to express my sexuality as a full expression of who I am and as an affirmation of what I want most deeply while taking care of myself at the same time. I recognize that my sexual partner is an entirely different human being with different attitudes, goals, expectation, etc and that what they do is for there own reasons. I am responsible for making the best choices I can for myself given all the risks and things I can’t control.

  • Escoffier

    J, the Natalie Wood like a was a joke, hence “j/k” (“just kidding”).

    Re: the other thing,

    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/jefferson-hemings-revisited/30273

    I read the original scholars’ report when it came out in 2000 (or 2001). One of my profs was on the commission.

  • J

    she asked another woman who had undergone breast augmentation for advice. That woman told her not to do it because of lower back pain, painful recovery, effect on some sports, and because it appealed to lowest common denominator male behavior and looked slutty. …. The woman’s response was something like, “Oh, I just said that negative stuff to discourage you because I didn’t really want the competition. Now that you’ve had it done, I can tell you that I love my boobs.”

    I’ve been lugging a round a large set of natural boobs since I was 12. They do affect your posture and your ability to play some sport. More importantly, they do appeal to lowest common denominator male behavior and can look slutty. Even when kept under wraps, they attract a lot of the wrong sort of attention. Knowing what I know from living with large breasts, I would never advise another woman to get herself some DDs. If the surgery weren’t so mutilating, I’d have mine reduced. (Google anchor scar and nipple loss.)

  • J

    J, the Natalie Wood like a was a joke, hence “j/k” (“just kidding”).

    I know. I was teasing you, Esco.

    IRL, it’s my second best character trait–next to my boobs. 😉

  • Sassy,

    So lemme get this straight, if the ring finger is longer than the index finger, then the guy is well-endowed ?

    Sassy, by that metric, you’re gonna come at me with a magnifying glass and a pair tweezers.

    Can you handle a pair of tweezers ?

    Ahh, I thought so.

    No compliance from me … hehehehe

  • HereIAm

    @Mr. Wavevector #80

    As I mentioned to szopen the list wasn’t meant to be comprehensive or a “solution” but I’d be happy to look at your additions.

    I want to fully know a man – I tried to cover this with “I want to try and understand what is going on in the life of another and connect to who they are”

    I want to love and cherish a man and give fully of myself to him – I think this is covered by the combination of two statements

    I want to be able to inspire a man to show me his best self to me
    I want to encourage a man to be comfortable in who he his and in his desires
    I want a man to fully share his sexuality with me

    I think all three statements above get at the woman doing things that support/encourage/elicit certain actions/expression from the man and I would agree that something like that could be added to the list but there is some nuance behind why/how I constructed these statements that I did not make explicit and will only mention briefly here since I’m short on time.

    I was creating these statements with some clear ideas about whose responsible for what, attention to the motivational root of these actions/desires, and attention to whether or not the statements came from a place of other-validation or self-validation. So statements about behavior/expression that supports certain behavior/expression in another gets a little trickier and nuanced to speak to and I ended up omitting it but I agree it is an area to include.

    for both of us
    mutually

    These two edits I believe get at being interested in and attentive to the experience of the man/partner and acting in some way to support/serve their interests. I agree this could have been addressed better although some of it I believe is address by the entirety of the statements. I thought about putting a specific statement about this in but since the original perspective was from that of a woman who is not even in a relationship I thought some statement about serving “unknown generic man” could be easily misinterpreted.

    There’s more I would like to say but I’ve got to go. Hope this clarifies somewhat.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Sassy

    What are you referring to with this comment?

    You don’t take the demeanor of that comment to be a teensy bit defensive? Far as I know, there is no one in my social circle that likes boob jobs. Natural is better.

    Daresay most of the guys here agree.

    Then again, that might be a “look at what they do, not what they say” situation.

    I know one woman that good a boob job, and she’s the one that acted like a stripper in my “stripper and shy girl” story. I would say DDs. They do like nice on her, I suppose, but the last time I saw her she was just so sad I couldn’t even see her as a sex object.

    @ Susan

    One of my focus groups is made up mostly of women who majored in education. According to them, reporting their profession to a guy is an “instant boner maker.” I believe it. Do alpha types like feminine women less than other men? Or do all men want the tough broad with the DDs?

    Tough broad with DDs sounds like an angry overweight feminist that likes to drink beer.
    Gimme the porn please!
    There were two girls in my co-ed frat that had a lot of the guy interests. I think most of the guys crushed on them because they were friendly and quite attractive. I do not think I ever even remotely cared for their interests, except that they bought me beer.

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    You don’t take the demeanor of that comment to be a teensy bit defensive? Far as I know, there is no one in my social circle that likes boob jobs. Natural is better.

    No, I don’t think it was defensive. Honestly, I just like to engage in debates with people. My ENTPness gets a major kick out of it.

    I’m a natural D-cup, so I don’t have a personal dog in the fight. I just like to argue points. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    “co-ed frat”

    What the hell??

  • mr. wavevector

    @Susan,

    But would they want the whiskey drinking, porn watching, martial arts fighting woman if they could keep her? I’m trying to get a sense of how highly men value femininity. It’s not possible to be feminine and engage in these activities – I think the word “coarse” applies here.

    No.
    A lot.
    I agree.

    Femininity is highly valued by most men. We value something different in women than what we value in men. We want something complementary, not more of the same.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Fair enough. There are still no guys here saying that girls should get boob jobs though 😛

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “What the hell??”

    Just an organization for business students. A lot of professional “fraternities” are actually co-ed.

    OH! Re: women with male interests

    Porn is good.

    I like porn, and you should too!

  • Susan, she’s really not that tough! She’s this petite, 5’4 thing that kind of sucks at Muay Thai, at least from a fighter perspective. She wears the pink gloves and all of that stuff and guys tend to want to “help her with technique.” It’s endearing and girly rather than competitive with men.

    What has happened, as far as I can tell, is that the guys are slightly nervous to ask her out on a date-like activity so they ask her to join them on these boys’ night type outings. Since it is an MMA gym, these outings frequently involve watching fights and sports. She wears dresses and skirts, perfume, etc.

    I believe that the MMA is just a gimmick—she joined the gym because I told her how many guys trained there and she wanted to meet athletic guys. She wasn’t getting approached all that much before. She also likes the workouts from a fitness perspective—SI and Victoria’s Secret models are training with boxing coaches in NYC to get ready for shoots, so this may be going more mainstream.

    The porn-watching was to understand what guys like; I’m not sure she enjoyed all of it, but she said that some of it was unexpectedly exciting and she describes herself as having a high sex drive (PS: I’ve never had sex with her).

    The more difficult part to analyze is her interest in a lot of typically male-oriented fiction and non-fiction books. I think that is genuinely for herself at this point and has little to do with catering to the male mind.

    She has said that she believes that women with larger natural breasts like J (and yourself, it sounds like) don’t necessarily always appreciate how it can feel to have small boobs in a pool and beach-oriented state like Florida. The DDs may be an overcompensation, but they do look pretty rad on her IMHO.

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      There’s something about your story that’s been nagging at me, but I hadn’t been able to put my finger on it. Then I realized, Aha! It’s Pygmalion! You want to be Higgins to her Dolittle. You may not have had sex with her yet, but you’re hoping to. In fact, you’re hoping to beat out dozens of other males in one fell swoop when she chooses you and disappoints the others. 🙂

      Re kickboxing, yes, it’s one of the most popular classes at my gym (which is all women, btw). I’m a spinner myself, but I’ve done it – it is definitely a workout!

  • mr. wavevector

    One of my focus groups is made up mostly of women who majored in education. According to them, reporting their profession to a guy is an “instant boner maker.”

    Men are evolved to select women who will reproduce – who are fertile, sexually receptive and won’t forget where they left the baby. “Majored in education” signals that.

    Women are evolved to select men who are useful to their reproductive endevours – to protect, provide, and take out the garbage. I’ll bet those women all would like a tall, self confident, good looking guy with a good job.

  • BTW: I don’t know which guy is going to ultimately win this particular large-breasted sweepstakes, but I hope it happens soon because I fear that her decision could de-stabilize the social atmosphere of the gym if she plays this out for too long and several guys become invested in the outcome. Right now she has a Queen Elizabeth-like purity thing, despite the porn boobs, that makes men pedestalize her a bit, and I wonder if this will last once she starts being exclusive and sexual with one guy.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’m a natural D-cup

    That explains a lot 😉

  • Sassy6519

    @ mr. wavevector

    What does it explain?

  • J

    She has said that she believes that women with larger natural breasts like J (and yourself, it sounds like) don’t necessarily always appreciate how it can feel to have small boobs in a pool and beach-oriented state like Florida. The DDs may be an overcompensation, but they do look pretty rad on her IMHO.

    I get that a girl with small boobs can feel less sexy. Hell, any deviation from “the mold”–brown hair instead of blond, too tall, too short, whatever–can make a woman feel bad. I’m just saying that DDs come with their own set of problems. If I had a choice, I’d be a generous C. Big enough to be womanly, small enough not to be the first thing a guy sees.

    • If I had a choice, I’d be a generous C.

      I read somewhere that C cup is by far the most common choice for boob jobs. (But I can’t find that stat now.)

  • mr. wavevector

    I fear that her decision could de-stabilize the social atmosphere of the gym

    You guys are getting yoko’d.

    • You guys are getting yoko’d.

      LOL, I’m afraid they’re too young to catch the reference.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Sassy,

    What does it explain?

    The type of attention you get from men and the type of men you get it from. Men who like an ostentatious display of status – like a fine female with natural D-cups. They have a competitive, more is better approach, and you’ve got more of what they’re looking for.

    A lot of the things you’ve said have helped me realize that beauty has its downside. If you were plainer you would attract less handsome and high status (and possibly less well-endowed) men. But they might appreciate you as a person more. And there’s a lot to appreciate – you are intelligent and honest and insightful. It’s a pity your men have been so obsessed and insecure about your appearance that they didn’t value those things more.

    In some ways it’s a lot easier being average. If you’re of average looks and are sensible enough to date others of average looks, then you have a lot of people to choose from. It makes it easier to choose your partner based on things other than looks – such as if they like you as a person. But … you don’t get to have sex with supermodels – or even with guys who look like Jonathan Rhys Meyers.

  • doomwolf

    For those that didn’t follow up on Sassy’s links, one of the pages has a link to a page offering a new theory as to why men like breasts in the first place:

    http://www.livescience.com/23500-why-men-love-breasts.html

    “It’s a behavior that males have evolved in order to stimulate the female’s maternal bonding circuitry.”

  • @ Susan & Cooper,

    Yep, that’s a real profile; and it is pretty awful. I take it that he thought he was being funny and all, but then his pictures with another woman (hot on top of it) as well as his abs just negate further urge to inquire. It’s a shame because he’s tall, blond with blue eyes, physically a 10. It is almost a joke IMO.

    @ Marellus,

    Your profile had me picture Gollum on OKC, and God knows he doesn’t give rings, he takes them away!

    The problem with humour and sarcasm in profiles is that, done poorly it comes out lame and ignorant or lazy. I rarely find a guy who knows his way around it, unless he obviously takes the goofy road. So tread carefully!

    Anyway, I wore a push-up in my main picture to make the boob situation look more appetizing, maybe this is why I got the meathead.

    • Anyway, I wore a push-up in my main picture to make the boob situation look more appetizing, maybe this is why I got the meathead.

      ROFL

  • @Mr WV,

    Who wants to have sex with Jonathan Rhys Meyers???

    Have they seen his buddy in the Tudors?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cavill

    http://fiftyshadesofgreyfanclub.com/wp-content/uploads/Henry-Cavill1.jpg

    http://henrycavill.org/images/stories/henry-cavill.jpg

    The guy is CRIMINALLY HOT!!! There is a reason he’s the new Superman.

    Mr WV, don’t make a woman Google guys like this during ovulation, it’s wrong!

    • @Mireille

      Cosign re Henry Cavill. Is he going to play Christian Grey? That’s actually brilliant casting.

  • Sassy6519

    @ mr. wavevector

    A lot of the things you’ve said have helped me realize that beauty has its downside. If you were plainer you would attract less handsome and high status (and possibly less well-endowed) men. But they might appreciate you as a person more. And there’s a lot to appreciate – you are intelligent and honest and insightful. It’s a pity your men have been so obsessed and insecure about your appearance that they didn’t value those things more.

    I want you to know how touched I felt reading this response. As you know, I don’t consider myself a very emotional person, but this really touched me in a surprising way.

    Thank you.

  • Mireille,

    That was candid of you … appreciated.

  • Jonathan

    How about this – is a woman who is very feminine in her interests, e.g., yoga, ballet, kindergarten teacher, more or less attractive than a woman who practices martial arts and watches porn?

    Others have answered this but it seems to me we’re talking about different things. Femininity is attractive. Liking men is attractive. A woman with classic feminine behavioral traits who enjoys interacting with men is very attractive. Maybe this is the bubbly personality that another commenter mentioned.

    • A woman with classic feminine behavioral traits who enjoys interacting with men is very attractive.

      Right, I guess I don’t see how a woman who sees only guy movies, reads guy books, does martial arts, and watches male porn can be said to embrace classic feminine behavioral traits.

  • Thrasymachus

    Re: boob jobs:

    One of the most common manosphere maxims is to watch what women do, not what they say they want. The same seems to apply to men with respect to boob jobs. In every online forum most men, from PUA’s to manginas, claim to hate them and to prefer natural breasts, however small, to fake ones. In reality, however, women who have had breast augmentation surgery almost invariably report receiving far more attention from men, and their career prospects in certain fields that require “professional beauties” (modeling, acting, etc.) are significantly enhanced (no pun intended). By the way, “lower SES ” men are not the only ones who react in this way.

    Something is wrong here. Women would not undertake major surgery if they did not perceive clear advantages from doing so. This does NOT mean that it is the right decision to make in any particular case (only individual women can judge that) but it is patently obvious that large, fake breasts appeal to many men – even when they know that surgery rather than nature is responsible for these assets.

  • Anacaona

    I’m the only Hussie with a B cup? 🙁
    I actually though about getting a boob job but it was never something I planned on and I hate scars an unnecessary surgeries and if I wanted unwanted male attention to my chest area I could had just not wear a bra in public. That would had been cheaper. 😉
    Also for the ones planning on having kids the boob job gets in the way of breastfeeding. Take that in account.

    • I’m the only Hussie with a B cup?

      I’ve never thought of it before, but all the female regulars whose photos I have seen are indeed quite well endowed. So much for the theory that my readers can’t get male attention. I suspect many of them are tired of the wrong kind of male attention.

  • Wondering

    @Susan, thank you for the follow-up post to my comment!

    One more thing that I’ve tried a couple times is Grouper and I think it is worth mentioning. While I didn’t end up having a romantic connection, I still had fun and I think it is a good way to expand one’s social network. There are definitely some guys just trying to hook up through it so filtering is important as always.

    • @Wondering

      I have heard one good report so far on Grouper, and I think I mentioned previously that a young, rather restricted woman I know met a guy of the same stripe on Tindr! They’re pretty serious.

      I recommend trying any and all approaches – and stick with the ones you enjoy most.

  • Anacaona

    OT
    I just finished Dan Brown’s new book Inferno. Since I’m never in the same level in pop culture here though to share in case anyone read it or want to read it we can comment it.

  • SayWhaat

    Well that worked beautifully. Guess we’ll have to skip the screenshots.

    Alright, Marellus, as promised, here are examples of good/bad/ugly comments.

    The Ugly

    I am writing in hopes that you won’t reject me a humble man. I am [redacted] and am respectful beyond your belief. I just want to know if we can meet on the phone rather then internet meaning can I call you may I take your number? Hopefully you’ll let me take you for lunch thanks a bunch

    This is bad for a number of reasons. He had no interest in any of the conversational openers that I wrote on my profile. His frame is weak; he wants to take me to lunch already, before he’s even gotten to know me. The attempt to immediately get my personal contact information throws up red flags as well. Oh, and he’s old. What are you thinking, mister?

    When I didn’t respond, he followed up with “Does it make you feel good to ignore me?” Ugh. Next.

    The Bad

    Aren’t you excited for Arrested Development?! I’m so happy they decided to bring it back. When it ended a few years back I was literally going “YOU’RE TEARING ME APART, LISA!”. Sorry, I saw you mentioned the room on your profile, I had too lol What kind of things do you write? Novels, poems, jibberish, short stories? How’s this site working for you so far?

    This guy has too many references to my profile. It seems like he’s desperately seeking a connection. If he had only stopped after his comment about Arrested Development, I might have been inclined to write him back, but he piled too much on too quickly.

    The Player

    Besides your looks what are your three best qualities?

    Oof, this guy was cute. But holy hell, Player Red Alert!!! He started off with a charming line and then asked me to qualify myself. Smooth. Too smooth. In addition to our 10% compatibility (holy cow), he only had “short-term relationship” checked. Next, next, next!!!

    The Good

    Hey hey, Ted talks are awesome. I got hooked to them not so long ago and had an interesting conversation with someone on the train randomly. Haha.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-4flnuxNV4

    So I’m being peer pressured into watching the Game of Thrones. Haha, is it truly worth all the hype ?

    Nice! Made a reference to my profile which demonstrated that he was genuinely interested, shared a relevant and interesting link, and followed up with another simple question. And after a few more days of chatting, we now have a coffee date for next weekend.

    Here’s the bad news, though: there were other guys who sent lovely messages like the one above. But I just didn’t find them attractive. To that extent, guys should really invest in getting good pictures* up on their profiles. If the content does a good job of showcasing your personality, the picture is the thing that’s going to get you in the door.

    Anyways, hope that helps.

    *By the way, this got awkward for me tonight. I was checking out a cute guy’s pictures and he messaged me to say “HAHA long time no see!” Turns out, I had an improv class with him, but I totally didn’t recognize him at first because he got a haircut and had some flattering pictures. Haha…oops.

    • @SayWhaat

      Your comment with the online dating tidbits is great. You’re using great filters. And I find them entertaining. Keep ’em coming.

  • SayWhaat

    Women, over the years and today, put stock in the belief that one can estimate/gauge the size of a man’s penis by studying his hands and feet. It is believed that men with big hands and big feet have big penises. There is also the study of finger digit ratios at women’s disposals now, which is surprisingly more accurate than studying the size of a man’s hands alone.

    It gives women a sense of calm to believe that they can ascertain the size of a man’s “equipment” before getting him naked. It’s a way of cutting corners by saving time.

    I’m just gonna aim for guys who have a similar physique to my ex. The tall, slim, but physically fit look. I may have evolved from skinny hipsters. 😛

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    I’m just gonna aim for guys who have a similar physique to my ex. The tall, slim, but physically fit look. I may have evolved from skinny hipsters. 😛

    I always tell my friends the following:

    -I’ve found that it’s usually the tall, skinny guys that seem to pack “serious heat”. 🙂

    • I’ve found that it’s usually the tall, skinny guys that seem to pack “serious heat”.

      Ahem, my single anecdotal experience confirms this. I’m not a size queen, so it’s probably wasted on me. Hitting the backboard hurts like hell. Sorry for the overshare.

  • Gin Martini

    Whoa, take a pill, Sassy. Only the first sentence was aimed at you. Yes, we know *you’re* a size queen. Guys don’t get dick surgery, look at the rates. If so, we’d do it more often. We know it’s pointless.

    The second paragraph was a general observation to others talking about implants, not a suggestion to you. It was really two separate posts that I failed to separate.

  • SayWhaat,

    My thanks to you for all that info. The one you filed under “ugly” really does come over as an emotional vampire. You did well in dropping him.

    I must say, I like this line :

    Besides your looks what are your three best qualities?

    I’m gonna make use of it.

    So Sowwy.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Sassy,

    You’re welcome, my dear. I too have benefited from our conversations.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Thrasymachus,

    Women would not undertake major surgery if they did not perceive clear advantages from doing so.

    You have a point. Someone must be buying what they’re selling or the whole boob market would collapse.

    That doesn’t mean the boob market is efficient or rational, however. It is inflated by intrasexual competition and speculation.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ HereIAm #174,

    I’m glad you considered my suggestions. It’s your list, of course, so no pressure!

    I would like to hear more about this:

    I was creating these statements with some clear ideas about whose responsible for what, attention to the motivational root of these actions/desires, and attention to whether or not the statements came from a place of other-validation or self-validation.

    It sounds like you have some interesting ideas there. How about elaborating on them for us?

  • Doppleganger

    I see no mention of women asking men out as a ‘strategy’.

    Why is that?

    • I see no mention of women asking men out as a ‘strategy’.

      Did you see a mention of men asking women out?

      The post is about meeting people, not hitting on them.

  • @ Susan,

    I really hope they do NOT cast him as Christian Grey; I don’t think women will be able to handle scenes of sexual punishment with him. Plus that would trivialize his noble beauty. I guess you can tell I’m totally detached from the topic.

    Also, unfortunately for Yoko Ono, generations of music lovers will remember what she did. She has Salieri status at this point!

  • mr. wavevector

    LOL, I’m afraid they’re too young to catch the reference.

    Urban Dictionary to the rescue.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Psh. I may be 26 but I still know Yoko and Lennon

    What, do you think I am a rube?

  • mr. wavevector

    @Susan,

    A woman with classic feminine behavioral traits who enjoys interacting with men is very attractive.

    I notice that a lot of these threads involve interminable tendentious debates between a bunch of guys – plus you. You hang with these guys right down all their rabbit holes, while all the other women checked out long ago. You’ve got the “interacting with men” covered, for sure.

    What were you like as a girl, Susan? I don’t see you as a girly girl. A tom boy, perhaps, or a cool girl who hung with the guys but was still feminine? Perhaps that’s why your guy friends were crushing on you.

    Re: the martial arts thing. A woman who engages in some masculine activity (but is otherwise feminine) is attractive – it shows she’s willing to meet a guy part way and will have something in common with him. If that’s all she does it’s not so appealing to most men. But there’s no accounting for taste. I know one very masculine woman – looks like a man, talks like a man (deep voice and all), does masculine activities – who is married to a reasonably attractive man – happily, by all appearances.

    • @Mr. WV

      I notice that a lot of these threads involve interminable tendentious debates between a bunch of guys – plus you. You hang with these guys right down all their rabbit holes, while all the other women checked out long ago.

      You’re right. I suppose I feel a kind of obligation as the host of the blog. Recently I’ve been spending a bit less time on HUS, especially over the weekends, and I have found that the conversation moves along quite well without me. I need to do more of that. It also helps that some of the most argumentative male commenters have fled 🙂

      What were you like as a girl, Susan? I don’t see you as a girly girl. A tom boy, perhaps, or a cool girl who hung with the guys but was still feminine? Perhaps that’s why your guy friends were crushing on you.

      It’s funny you should ask this, because yesterday as I was writing about femininity I was well aware I was not describing myself. I was very much a tomboy. I recall a coed running race in 7th grade, and I came in first, beating all the boys. I was also very feisty – a bit of a class clown with a tendency to talk back to authority figures.

      Once I hit puberty, I became flirtatious. I was very confident. I was never the prettiest girl in the class, and in high school I mostly played the sidekick to the prettiest, most popular girls. I was never the yoga, ballet or education major type, though. My personality was (and still is) more toward the teasing, witty, lust for life end of the spectrum. It’s that last bit, by the way, that has always been my secret ingredient for attracting men.

  • mr. wavevector

    Psh. I may be 26 but I still know Yoko and Lennon

    My middle schooler listens to the Beatles. They still play “Stairway to Heaven” as the last song at the dances too.

    Meanwhile Robert Daltry is still alive, and still singing “I hope I die before I get old”.

    I know I didn’t grow up listening to stuff my Dad listened to 40 years earlier. Perhaps it’s the “new traditional”.

    • I know I didn’t grow up listening to stuff my Dad listened to 40 years earlier. Perhaps it’s the “new traditional”.

      I think people will be listening to the Beatles in 500 years. They’re the Mozart of the 20th century. Our kids grew up listening to them – Abbey Road was a favorite when they were toddlers – and still do.

      My husband and I have never tired of debating the John vs. Paul question. Interestingly, my views on this have changed. I always found Paul to be the more gifted Beatle, but more recently I’ve come around to thinking it was John. Neither was half as good solo.

  • Escoffier

    Thras, I don’t think that analysis ultimately holds up.

    The thing is, unless one is a nudist, when one a guy meets women, everyone–including the ladies–has their clothes on. Under such circumstances, a boob job might indeed be very advantageous as a “hook”. No guy can tell real from fake under most clothing. It’s when the clothing comes off that the fakery becomes evident. Then the guy may find himself in a quandary.

    So, a guy who says “I don’t like fake tits” but is nonetheless attracted to women with fake tits is not necessarily lying. In all likelihood he is merely–like most guys–simply attracted to BIG tits that he sees underneath clothes, and he is no idea of their authenticity.

    Your point about market incentives, however, is valid but is also explainable by the market itself. That is, I don’t know what the % of women who get boob jobs is, but it’s got to be very low. So it would only take a commensurately small % of men who like boob jobs for the market to reach equilibrium.

  • Escoffier

    Daltry = Roger, not Robert.

  • Re : Penis Size

    There is another factor you’re all missing :

    Curvage.

    Apparently, if the penis is curved in the right way, that delightful tool goes to work on the G-Spot, the A-spot, and the clit quite uproariously.

    The downside is that this pleasure multiplication only works in certain positions.

    But then again, by appealing to NAWALT, I can also say YCMV …

    … the ‘C’ stands for Curvage …

  • @ Mr WV,

    I like to talk with men as well, but only when I think I’m getting my point across; unfortunately around here, there are way too many guys with really deep rooted beliefs so feeding the back and forth goes nowhere with them; while I like a good argument, I do not like rehashing stuff. Unfortunately, it is always the same stuff. I actually think we progressed a lot in the dialogue with your BMD concept.

    Another thing is I fear I might not be interested in super abstract convos about philosophy, statistics and models which the highly brainy guys around here relish. Yes, I said it, I’m not that intellectual.

    @ Marellus,

    Curvage should definitely appear on dating profiles as well; right next to body type for men.

  • mr. wavevector

    @Esc,

    everyone–including the ladies–has their clothes on

    More or less.

    Daltry = Roger, not Robert.

    Senior moment.

  • Re: female online dating profiles. I know this is old news, but make sure to wear red or have a red background behind you in the photo (!).

  • J

    I’m the only Hussie with a B cup?

    I dunno. You are the only tall, sylph-like, former model though, so you get no pity from me. 😉

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Mireille,

    @ Mr WV,

    I like to talk with men as well, but only when I think I’m getting my point across; unfortunately around here, there are way too many guys with really deep rooted beliefs so feeding the back and forth goes nowhere with them;

    Indeed. That’s the “interminable and tendentious” aspect of it.

    I actually think we progressed a lot in the dialogue with your BMD concept.

    Thanks!

    Another thing is I fear I might not be interested in super abstract convos about philosophy, statistics and models which the highly brainy guys around here relish.

    Some of that stuff is OK – it’s definitely good to have the science and the facts rather than stupid ideology. But the convos tend to get off the point, and excessive abstraction is not what I’m here for either.

    I’ve learned that people are not primarily rational. We make emotional decisions and use our rather feeble reasoning skills to rationalize it after the fact.

    I’ve also learned a lot of respect for emotions. Emotions are actually highly sophisticated and evolved computational processes that provide answers to complex social problems a whole lot faster and more accurately than reasoning usually does.

    So making a big philosophical debate out of issues that are primarily emotional often misses the whole point.

  • Hope

    J, I’m a b-cup normally, and even with nursing still can fit into that. My husband was fond of my smaller chest size, but he doesn’t mind the change.

    Saywhaat and sassy, I saw a funny photo the other day where they just changed a few things, and a group of nerds from the 90s became hipsters of today.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1baowq/nerds_vs_hipsters/

  • J

    John was the “artist.” Paul excelled at “silly love songs” and being cute.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ WV

    Not a big fan of the Beatles. At least not the earlier stuff. It really does sound all like bubble-gum to me. The latter stuff gets me going a little bit, but I’d prefer listening to the Who, and then probably more something like Kansas.

    Do dig me some Boston and Eagles. Never much liked The Doors.

    80s rock is a guilty pleasure, lol. Grunge is good but 90s music overall just sounds like shit to me.

    Most of the people I know just listen to the Top 40 and have nostalgia for prior Top 40 hits in their lifetimes. No real broad appreciation of what came before.

  • Joe

    Oh man – talk about OT. But it’s irresistible.

    I went through that same Paul vs. John phase. Then I realized that most of my favorites were written by – George! I’m not talking about that Indian guru inspired Within You Without You stuff. I’m talking about songs like Don’t Bother Me, Taxman, While My Guitar Gently Weeps and Something.

    And solo, I think Dark Horse was vastly underrated.

    • @Joe

      There’s a pretty recent documentary about George that really opened my eyes. He was incredibly talented, and also a fascinating person. To his credit, once he discovered his spiritual side, he stayed with it for the rest of his life.

  • Since we’re OT as well, I learned about the Beatles in English class; the song were pretty easy and catchy, and also in “correct” english. Very appropriate for non-speaker. The Beatles and Sting. Still love them to this day!

    ADBG, so 90’s is “shit” to you??? You’re dead to me!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrEo3hZABU

    http://youtu.be/qU8UfYdKHvs

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Grunge! Grunge! Grunge!

    @ Susan

    My personality was (and still is) more toward the teasing, witty, lust for life end of the spectrum. It’s that last bit, by the way, that has always been my secret ingredient for attracting men.

    Would agree. We may like a lot of the nurturing traits and such, but being flirtatious and easy to talk to, along with wanting to experience life, is very attractive…and in short supply.

    What was your MBTI, if I may ask?

    • What was your MBTI, if I may ask?

      ENFJ, isn’t it obvious? 🙂

  • Cooper

    @Saywhaat
    No wonder I rarely got responses – I can’t write an impeccable, or know when to stop..
    Don’t you think your over analyzing initial messages? You really expect a guy to check all the marks on his first messege?

    I don’t think you appreciate how lousy is it for guys to write endless amount of messeges, to hear from close to none. (after a while you just end up changing it up, so no one messege is bound to be perfect)

    Of your ~16 messeges a day you receive, how many do you respond to?

    I guess my point is mute – why entertain any questionable ones, when there are cuter ones anyways..

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    ENFJ does appear to literally pour out of your comments, lol

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I went through that same Paul vs. John phase. Then I realized that most of my favorites were written by – George! I’m not talking about that Indian guru inspired Within You Without You stuff. I’m talking about songs like Don’t Bother Me, Taxman, While My Guitar Gently Weeps and Something.

    Amen. Big fan of his Traveling Wilburys stuff too… Actually heard one of their songs at a house party last week. Major props to that DJ.

    • @Jimmy

      Mr. HUS also loves the Traveling Wilburys – that’s a serious roomful of talent.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Right, I guess I don’t see how a woman who sees only guy movies, reads guy books, does martial arts, and watches male porn can be said to embrace classic feminine behavioral traits.

    They’re not necessarily mutually exclusive, but I’m sure the correlation is low.

    But I can think of quite a few hot female athletes I’ve known through the years who had a lot of masculine interests, but feminine personalities.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I also think of when I’ve visited friends at schools in the South… Almost all the girls there loved hunting & fishing, watching college football, drinking beer with the guys, etc

    But most always wore sundresses & heels, had classic feminine nurturing personalities, etc.

    I’d consider them very feminine, even though a good portion of their activities would be considered masculine.

    • @Jimmy

      I also think of when I’ve visited friends at schools in the South… Almost all the girls there loved hunting & fishing, watching college football, drinking beer with the guys, etc

      But most always wore sundresses & heels, had classic feminine nurturing personalities, etc.

      I’d consider them very feminine, even though a good portion of their activities would be considered masculine.

      That’s a good point. I do think Southern women know a lot more about femininity than most American women.

  • angelguy

    “I don’t think you appreciate how lousy is it for guys to write endless amount of messeges, to hear from close to none.”

    I think in online dating writing “less” is more.
    There is nothing worse than having to write about yourself, and make it unique everytime.
    In that sense, I think it is wise to follow prospects a little at a time.

  • Joe

    @Jimmy H

    Big fan of his Traveling Wilburys stuff too

    Oh yeah. Me too.

    Susan, I start to think that answers to questions like “Who’s your fav. Beatle?” or “What’s your fav. band?” says more about someone that Myers-Briggs.

    But let me ask this. I hear that millennials aren’t into music so much as generations past. It was said that “foodies” have become the essence of being hip and cool and whatever in-word the X-ers used. I’m not sure I buy into that notion, but what if it’s true that the generation you’re trying to speak to doesn’t have a sound track the way we did?

    That would make conversation harder, wouldn’t it?

    • ’m not sure I buy into that notion, but what if it’s true that the generation you’re trying to speak to doesn’t have a sound track the way we did?

      That would make conversation harder, wouldn’t it?

      Well, it would certainly take one of my favorite topics off the table. I’m sure they have other things to make up for it – higher quality TV programming than we had, for example. In general, though, with people communicating in 140 characters, and texting instead of phoning, my guess is that conversation skills are suffering. Kids today, what’re ya gonna do?

  • SayWhaat

    Don’t you think your over analyzing initial messages? You really expect a guy to check all the marks on his first messege?

    No, and no. This is what filters out the spammers from the guys who are genuinely intrigued. He needs to make an effort to demonstrate interest and show me that he is interesting as well.

    I don’t think you appreciate how lousy is it for guys to write endless amount of messeges, to hear from close to none. (after a while you just end up changing it up, so no one messege is bound to be perfect)

    Cry me a river, Cooper. I’ve sent a ton of messages to other guys and never heard back. This is a fact of life. You don’t always get what you want. Just put your best foot forward and see where you go.

    Of your ~16 messeges a day you receive, how many do you respond to?

    First of all, I don’t receive 16 messages/day. That was just one day. Yesterday I received only 6 or 7, for instance.

    But I would estimate that 90% of the messages are duds. “Heyyy wssupp” or “You look too nice to be on here. ;)” or maybe just something that barely qualifies as English from an Indian guy looking for a one-way ticket to America. The guy who writes a decently composed message is LEAGUES ahead of the competition.

    For what it’s worth, this was the message my ex sent me: “That photo is great!” Seriously. Terrible. But he used a headshot for his profile picture and I could see that he was a good-looking guy, and the rest of his profile was decently composed and it was clear that he was intelligent. I took it from there.

    There are a lot of steps you can take to improve your odds.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I’m still not buying this and I laugh every time I see a post about girls trying to ‘find’ a bf (like they have to look soooo hard). Any girl who puts herself out there just a bit and isn’t ugly or too overweight (so at least a 4/10) can get a bf. It’s laughable to argue otherwise.

    The real issue here is the hypergamous ladder theory, which I think you should address in posts like these. Women have a notoriously hard time determining what league of men they can lock down and addressing this issue would help the most. Hell, even Charlotte on the first page said she went out with 25 different guys! You’re going to tell me that not even ONE of those guys was suitable for her? 25 dates is a lifetime for some men and this was probably done in a couple of months for her.

    If women had realistic expectations then most of this would be moot.

    • @Jason

      Women have a notoriously hard time determining what league of men they can lock down and addressing this issue would help the most.

      Wooo wooo, this is eerie, but I put up a new post on this very topic the same minute you left your comment.

      I’m still not buying this and I laugh every time I see a post about girls trying to ‘find’ a bf (like they have to look soooo hard). Any girl who puts herself out there just a bit and isn’t ugly or too overweight (so at least a 4/10) can get a bf

      To be fair, two things. One is that women should be able to get bf’s of their own SMV. Yes, there are some women kidding themselves, but in today’s sexual marketplace, men are slower to commit. That’s just a fact.

      Second, I get the question a lot from women who do NOT want to meet guys in bars. Most of them have BTDT, and they’re over it. They want a more wholesome, organic way of meeting potential mates. This post highlights all the potential ways that can happen. I think the most important step a woman can take is being upfront and honest about wanting a relationship, something I know women feel very sheepish about. I recall feeling that way myself – and I think that leads to a lot of young women following the “I’m an independent female” script, because they perceive it as more socially acceptable. Lots of wannabe girlfriends in the closet out there.

  • Cooper

    “The guy who writes a decently composed message is LEAGUES ahead of the competition.”

    Call a spade, a spade – “lovely” messeges don’t put a guy further ahead of a guy with a “terrible” messege, and nicer photos.

    • Call a spade, a spade – “lovely” messeges don’t put a guy further ahead of a guy with a “terrible” messege, and nicer photos.

      I think cad messages appeal to cad lovers, and dad messages appeal to dad lovers. A well written, clever message is essential in the latter case, as the women is more concerned about intelligence.

      SayWhaat provided an omega message, an alpha cad message, and a just right beta message. Shouldn’t her opinion reflect what at least some women do?

  • Cooper

    FWIW, I don’t think that is necessarily bad. I was just critising the fact that you were picking apart their messeges, as if their photos didnt play a bigger role.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    To be fair, two things. One is that women should be able to get bf’s of their own SMV. Yes, there are some women kidding themselves, but in today’s sexual marketplace, men are slower to commit. That’s just a fact.

    Yes, that’s what I meant. And as to your point, I think the ladder theory screws things up for the whole marketplace, not just the women. I think a majority of guys would be willing to commit, but only to a girl they deem at least in their league. The problem is that those same girls are looking at the league one notch up and the guys go “to hell with it all”. You might claim “chicken or the egg” argument, but let’s be real here for a second; guys generally know what they can get, and if they deem that this is the best they can realistically get they go for it. They just don’t want a raw deal.

    Second, I get the question a lot from women who do NOT want to meet guys in bars. Most of them have BTDT, and they’re over it. They want a more wholesome, organic way of meeting potential mates. This post highlights all the potential ways that can happen. I think the most important step a woman can take is being upfront and honest about wanting a relationship, something I know women feel very sheepish about. I recall feeling that way myself – and I think that leads to a lot of young women following the “I’m an independent female” script, because they perceive it as more socially acceptable. Lots of wannabe girlfriends in the closet out there.

    I get this too, but even these other methods are useless if the girl keeps shooting for the stars. Online dating, with it’s few success stories, in a prime example for this. Girls get 100s or 1000s of messages compared to the paltry sums guys get, and in their head their SMV is through the roof. Thus they won’t accecpt any dates or offers from guys equal to or slightly below them. I know a few guys who are 8+ who have absolutely killed it women in the 6 to 8 category on sites like OKC/match/POF because of this exact theory, all the while not really looking for anything serious.

  • Cooper

    “Shouldn’t her opinion reflect what at least some women do?”

    No doubt.

  • I’m sorry to say, Saywhaat is right, most messages go to garbage anyway. I’d say most of the messages I get are pure garbage, reason why I’m not a fan of online dating in the least. Probably has to do with the whole being black situation; after you remove those who:
    _look just thuggish,
    _with significantly lower education than you,
    _didn’t care enough to write a decent profile (no pic and/or text),
    _are not attractive (to you at least)
    _wrote a variant of “hi sexy” as they first contact,
    _are out of freaking state(???)

    you probably have eliminated close to 100% of your inbox.

    In any case, I have observed that I get much more response from men IRL these days simply because after reading this blog for close to 9 months now, I get it that I need to push back and initiate more contact and convos; I believe it is working.

    • I have observed that I get much more response from men IRL these days simply because after reading this blog for close to 9 months now, I get it that I need to push back and initiate more contact and convos; I believe it is working.

      Yay! I love the Field Reports – I live for them!

  • Suzan, I think a comment of mine went into moderation. Will you kindly check please.

  • SayWhaat

    FWIW, I don’t think that is necessarily bad. I was just critising the fact that you were picking apart their messeges, as if their photos didnt play a bigger role.

    Photos are important, I said as much in that comment. For guys who don’t have that advantage, a well-crafted message is still enough to bump them up in the running. I’ve responded to plenty of guys I wouldn’t have considered otherwise.

    My ex had a well-written profile and mentioned his education at an Ivy League institution. His initial message was terrible, but his profile showed me that he wasn’t a complete dunderhead. That’s why he got the chance, when so many guys before him didn’t.

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    And what would “That’s a nice photo!” be considered? At face value, alpha cad – drive-by messege – no?

    She says a well-written, clever messege (aka just right beta) puts a guy leagues ahead of the competition. When really being tall, slim, and having a nice headshot trumps whether the guy wrote a alpha cad or just right beta message…

    Why emphasize the the important of messege content, when the photos are going to negate the impressions they leave anyways?

    • And what would “That’s a nice photo!” be considered? At face value, alpha cad – drive-by messege – no?

      No, alphas never give compliments. An alpha would have said, “I guess your parents didn’t have money for braces…”

  • Anacaona

    Women would not undertake major surgery if they did not perceive clear advantages from doing so.
    Are you kidding me? Had you read Cosmo? Women can and will buy a lot of crap that men don’t care or plain hate because the media tells them so. Do I need to mention armpitbleacher gate again?

    Cosign re Henry Cavill. Is he going to play Christian Grey? That’s actually brilliant casting.
    Superman as sexual deviant?! DO.NO.WANT. Also I’m sure his agents will probably say that playing The Big Blue Boyscout to Mr Grey will hurt one of the movies. No one will buy him as Grey or as Superman he cannot play both.
    I didn’t read 50 Shades but I wish they cast Robsten as the leads mostly because it will mess with so many people’s head that it will make Internet explode in tiny million bits of data, YMMV.

    I’ve never thought of it before, but all the female regulars whose photos I have seen are indeed quite well endowed. So much for the theory that my readers can’t get male attention. I suspect many of them are tired of the wrong kind of male attention.
    Heh so Hope and I share yet another trait. My kingdom for a study correlating sexual sociosexuality and attraction to Beta traits with boob size 😛

    I dunno. You are the only tall, sylph-like, former model though, so you get no pity from me.
    Ha! Thank you for the compliment…I think 😛

    J, I’m a b-cup normally, and even with nursing still can fit into that. My husband was fond of my smaller chest size, but he doesn’t mind the change.
    Some guy was trying to chat me up in the store the other day, no doubt staring at my new rack (don’t have experience checking my boobs to make sure they are covered before leaving the house). I was tempted to tell him “This is my breastfeeding rack, it will disappear in a few months. Don’t bother” I though he might not find it as funny as hubby and I do. 😛

  • Cooper

    “My ex had a well-written profile and mentioned his education at an Ivy League institution. His initial message was terrible, but his profile showed me that he wasn’t a complete dunderhead.”

    Ok, that’s fair. I took it from #253 that his profile was only decent.

    “Photos are important, I said as much in that comment.”

    You did, but only as a side point to emphasizing the importance of first messege content.
    Personally, I don’t focus on content until there has been a couple messeges exchanged, cause that indicates I passed the photo-check.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “Heh so Hope and I share yet another trait. My kingdom for a study correlating sexual sociosexuality and attraction to Beta traits with boob size ”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210352/

    Short form.
    All guys like big boobs.
    Restricted guys like smaller boobs more than unrestricted guys.
    Unrestricted guys like big boobs more than restricted guys.

    Keep in mind both still prefer bigger.

  • SayWhaat

    And what would “That’s a nice photo!” be considered? At face value, alpha cad – drive-by messege – no?

    She says a well-written, clever messege (aka just right beta) puts a guy leagues ahead of the competition. When really being tall, slim, and having a nice headshot trumps whether the guy wrote a alpha cad or just right beta message…

    Why emphasize the the important of messege content, when the photos are going to negate the impressions they leave anyways?

    Geez, Cooper, it’s like you’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying!

    1. His photo did not “trump” all the other beta messages. I went out with plenty of guys who were less cute than him and wrote better messages. If they hadn’t freaked when they realized I was a virgin, they might have been my first boyfriend, instead of him.

    2. Regardless of his initial message, his profile screamed beta. He struck me as a genuinely good guy, which was confirmed in his subsequent messages.

    3. Some guys are terrible at asking women out, I have learned this much from HUS at least. Should I ignore the betas who do this, on basis of message alone? Is that what you want? Because if I had, I would have missed out on a great guy and a great relationship. Talk about the one that got away!

  • Lokland

    Pardon, I realized I reversed your statement.
    Restricted guys tolerate small boobs better than unrestricted guys.

  • SayWhaat

    You did, but only as a side point to emphasizing the importance of first messege content.

    An aside doesn’t make it less relevant. There are a number of factors that go into my evaluation of a profile.

    Personally, I don’t focus on content until there has been a couple messeges exchanged, cause that indicates I passed the photo-check.

    That’s called Dating Stupid. Being discerning up front improves your chances of getting a response from a quality woman (believe me, she can tell).

  • SayWhaat

    I have observed that I get much more response from men IRL these days simply because after reading this blog for close to 9 months now, I get it that I need to push back and initiate more contact and convos; I believe it is working.

    Awesome, Mireille! If you don’t mind me asking, how are you meeting these guys IRL?

  • Lokland

    @Cooper

    Getting pissed that hot guys have more success than ugly guys is like being pissed that $100 buys more gas than $10.

    Pointless argument but yes having someone try to explain that the $10 and $100 can be equal is a PITA.

  • Superman as sexual deviant?! DO.NO.WANT. Also I’m sure his agents will probably say that playing The Big Blue Boyscout to Mr Grey will hurt one of the movies. No one will buy him as Grey or as Superman he cannot play both.
    I didn’t read 50 Shades but I wish they cast Robsten as the leads mostly because it will mess with so many people’s head that it will make Internet explode in tiny million bits of data, YMMV.

    Thank you Ana; you and I are in agreement. While I think Pattinson can be believable as CG after seeing him in Cronenberg’s Cosmopolis, Stewart is just dead fish! Plus I don’t know who can play such a dumb character anyway. They should rewrite the whole thing in my opinion.

    • Plus I don’t know who can play such a dumb character anyway. They should rewrite the whole thing in my opinion.

      I believe that 50 Shades is the worst book I’ve ever read. This week in the New York Times Book Review there was a full page ad for the “50 Shades of Grey Inner Goddess Journal.” Basically, just an empty notebook that Viking is now peddling. What self-respecting woman would buy such a thing?

  • SayWhaat

    Pointless argument but yes having someone try to explain that the $10 and $100 can be equal is a PITA.

    You both are missing the point.

    Hot guy + beta message > average guy + beta message > hot guy + cad message > the rest is trash.

    Make sense?

  • Lokland

    @SW

    No disagreement.
    Your initial commentary made it sound like the message itself was what made it acceptable or unacceptable.

    Your boyfriend story makes that untrue.

    As a general rule guys are going to be more attuned to looks being important because we’ve been told from birth that its being the beta that works.

    Not the full story.

  • @ Saywhaat,

    They are randoms as well as friends of friends. The thing is my filter is pretty high regarding content even face to face so I just focus on developing my information extraction skills. I have a friend who’s great at knowing what people are about in 10mn convo and I’m starting to emulate that. Weirdly people respond and engage. I always think I might be prying or bothering them, but it looks like they are also looking for opportunities to chat.

    Also that good old trick of touching while talking to them works; I thought I was above all this, little did I know the system is smarter than I am.

  • Lokland

    Btw,

    in my example
    $100= hot +beta message
    $10= average + beta message

    You agreed with me.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’ve never thought of it before, but all the female regulars whose photos I have seen are indeed quite well endowed. So much for the theory that my readers can’t get male attention. I suspect many of them are tired of the wrong kind of male attention.”

    Acknowledgment that you are catering to the above average crowd?

    • Acknowledgment that you are catering to the above average crowd?

      Not necessarily. Above average breast size, I guess. But yes, based on the photos I have seen I’d say that the female readers here are quite attractive. Of course, women who do not feel OK about their appearance are less likely to share a photo…

  • SayWhaat

    No disagreement.
    Your initial commentary made it sound like the message itself was what made it acceptable or unacceptable.

    Then you are at fault for reading comprehension, because I very specifically added the caveat that men with good messages but unattractive pictures got no response from me.

    in my example
    $100= hot +beta message
    $10= average + beta message

    You agreed with me.

    I would value average + beta message at $70, but I do agree with the fundamental point.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “I would value average + beta message at $70, but I do agree with the fundamental point.”

    Just a question of interest.
    What would you label as your price?

    Or to be less personal,

    If a guy is hot + beta and a woman can attain that what reason would there to be place any value in average + beta? Ie. Why wouldn’t she simply place average + beta = irrelevant?

  • SayWhaat

    I always think I might be prying or bothering them, but it looks like they are also looking for opportunities to chat.

    People love to talk about themselves. One of the best Girl Game tips I ever received was, “ask questions”. I’ve come to realize that everybody is worth your time, either because they are good people or they educate you in avoiding others who are just like them!

  • Hope

    My husband had a high school thing with a girl that had huge boobs, like double d’s. He said that was one of the least attractive features about her. Among the first things he complimented me on when he saw me naked was my shapely chest that wasn’t so big.

    However, my bra size is very close to his mom’s, so the Freudian thing could be at work.
    There is also an element of his preferring women on the more petite side, which means less large boobs, proportionally speaking.

  • SayWhaat

    If a guy is hot + beta and a woman can attain that what reason would there to be place any value in average + beta? Ie. Why wouldn’t she simply place average + beta = irrelevant?

    Depends on her SMV. Average + beta could very well reveal himself to be hot + beta after a little more time.

    Also keep in mind that one woman’s “average” could be another woman’s “hot”.

  • Cooper

    @Lokland
    “$100= hot +beta message
    $10= average + beta message”

    I just missed that “That’s a nice photo!” was a beta message.

    Susan said “alphas never give compliments” but in The Player example:
    “Besides your looks what are your three best qualities?”

    Beside clearly trying to get her to qualify, that message does include a compliment.

    • Susan said “alphas never give compliments” but in The Player example:
      “Besides your looks what are your three best qualities?”

      Beside clearly trying to get her to qualify, that message does include a compliment.

      True. Discrediting me didn’t take long!

  • Mireille,

    You’ve learned how to use word ‘You’ in conversations. You might just end up becoming a femme fatale.

  • Sassy,

    The correlation coefficient for the digit ratio in that study was only 0.2. That’s pretty f-ing useless if you ask me. Anything lower than 0.7 is almost unrecognizable to the eye. In physics, you’re generally looking for higher than 0.997.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    I have a field report to share with the class! :mrgreen:

    Yesterday, I had a TON of errands to run. Reflecting on the GGC, my goal was to have friendly, quick convos with whomever crossed my path. Even if it would take extra time. My biggest weakness is “turtling” (pull myself inward) instead of putting myself out there.

    Here are the results:
    *Errand 1, Specialty Shop in my field: Talked with the shop assistant about what I was there for, the sunny day, pets. Talked with a different assistant about the incredibly mercurial weather, how much someone I had recommended to their shop LOVES it. Talked to the owner, too and told them a quick story about why I was coming in there on behalf of my vets. (They saved one beloved pet after she jumped out a 50 foot window; the other after he had gotten bitten right down to the bone. 🙁 )

    I came in kind of crabby and I left feeling buoyant and with a smile on my face. Also, they had comped me half of my order! YEAH! 😎

    *Errand 2: The gas station. Instead of pay-at-the-pump, I made sure to pay-inside and talk to the people I saw. I had an *incredibly* cringe-worthy experience with a woman who saw something on my rear-end and attempted to pull it off without trying to tell me. (I *hate* being touched by strangers in public! I completely regret my behavior– I ended up saying “Stay away from me” and she was all 😯 and jaw dropped.)

    Anyway, I talked to the cashier guy, the people waiting in line and when I tried to pay my card didn’t work. Someone else had paid for my gas! It was a cute guy in a mini-cooper and we had a short convo at the pump. ALRIGHT! I’d call that a win. 🙂

    *Errand 3, AC Unit I was figuring out how to lug up the stairs. Someone from my house came by, we got to talking about how it was going to be scary hot the next day for a couple of minutes. He insisted on lugging it up the stairs for me and installing it for me. (Alright! I am not a delicate flower, but I HATE manual labor!)

    None of the guys I met seemed like they were a good match for me, but putting myself out there *definitely* was on the right track and had positive results! 😀

    • @Jackie

      Great field report!

      I came in kind of crabby and I left feeling buoyant and with a smile on my face. Also, they had comped me half of my order!

      Ha, beautiful women always get free stuff! That’s great that you got a mood lift out of it too.

      Anyway, I talked to the cashier guy, the people waiting in line and when I tried to pay my card didn’t work. Someone else had paid for my gas! It was a cute guy in a mini-cooper and we had a short convo at the pump.

      And again! Girl, you are on a roll! I’m only surprised he didn’t go for your number. Perhaps he took down your license plate number?

      None of the guys I met seemed like they were a good match for me, but putting myself out there *definitely* was on the right track and had positive results!

      What about the cute guy in the mini-Cooper? Why throw that one back?

  • @ Marellus,

    I know a lot of you guys like to think women like to talk ONLY about themselves but that’s not the case. Some women don’t like to talk at all, let alone to strangers.
    I personally don’t like to ask people about themselves simply because I think it might be perceived as being intrusive; on the contrary I’ll listen to anyone who spontaneously decides to talk to me. I prefer when people volunteer information.

    It is the asking that I didn’t practice, the “you” was there all along.

  • Mireille,

    You are in France, no? May I ask what are the popular online dating sites within France? I’ve heard of meetic.fr, but they don’t seem to want to let me verify my account.

    I am very leery of paid-dating sites, but almost all of the European sites seem to require registration at a minimum.

  • Sassy6519

    When I did have an online dating profile, a man’s photos carried a lot more weight for me than his profile.

    If a man’s profile met a base level of articulateness and intelligence, I filtered mostly based on how physically attracted I was to the man in question.

  • Anacaona

    Short form.
    All guys like big boobs.
    Restricted guys like smaller boobs more than unrestricted guys.
    Unrestricted guys like big boobs more than restricted guys.
    Keep in mind both still prefer bigger.

    I actually meant if B cups women tend to be attracted to Restricted and Betas than Unrestricted Alphas. But thank for the link is good to see there are more studies out there talking about this things.

    Thank you Ana; you and I are in agreement. While I think Pattinson can be believable as CG after seeing him in Cronenberg’s Cosmopolis, Stewart is just dead fish! Plus I don’t know who can play such a dumb character anyway. They should rewrite the whole thing in my opinion.
    I know Kristen is one of those love or hate actresses but if you haven’t see her in other movies you should. I think she can sell any character including Anastasia,YMMV.

    There is also an element of his preferring women on the more petite side, which means less large boobs, proportionally speaking.
    I think hubby is not attracted to obesity at all, so I guess small size breast in skinny is more attractive than big size in large women for him.

  • Mireille

    … for some kind of reason, I feel compelled to disagree with you …

  • Anacaona

    I am very leery of paid-dating sites, but almost all of the European sites seem to require registration at a minimum.
    Paid dating sites are a good filter for people that are actually taking dating seriously IME. Unless is one were men pay more than women (that is BS) or its waaaay high with lots of promises of “Hot dates in 15 minutes” low key sites with a reasonable quota are usually full of people that don’t want the “online bar” kind of dating sites like Match.com, YMMV.

  • Anacaona wrote:

    Paid dating sites are a good filter for people that are actually taking dating seriously IME. Unless is one were men pay more than women (that is BS) or its waaaay high with lots of promises of “Hot dates in 15 minutes” low key sites with a reasonable quota are usually full of people that don’t want the “online bar” kind of dating sites like Match.com, YMMV.

    My experience with Match was that it had a ton of overlap with PoF. That which didn’t overlap was mostly skittish women who couldn’t handle the heat of PoF. I.e. I recognized a bunch of them who had a PoF account for a week, deleted it, and moved to Match. Skittish women never go out on dates, they just endlessly browse. Hence it was very poor value for the dollar.

    It’s so difficult for me to find compatibility that anything but the largest sites are a complete waste of my time, compared to the real-world. To be honest my primary desire for online dating en France is to work on my written French.

  • You are in France, no? May I ask what are the popular online dating sites within France? I’ve heard of meetic.fr, but they don’t seem to want to let me verify my account.

    I moved actually, in the US now. While there I did use Meetic and Yahoo profiles.

  • To be honest my primary desire for online dating en France is to work on my written French.

    Mr Nervous Toes where are you located? Are you living in the US?
    I’m not sure that, with the low number of replied guys get on OD sites, joining a french site is the best way to practice your french. Better to join a meetup group oriented towards languages, or get someone here interested in being a bilingual penpal.

  • declaired

    @Mr. Wavevector

    “Here’s why. Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them. Men know this and look for a woman they have a chance at topping. They also evaluate what type of competition they are likely to face in that attempt, should they make it.”

    First time commenting on this site, but your responses have been interesting especially with your anecdote about your wife’s Unix terminal.

    The reason for this question is because I have always taken academics and education very seriously. Currently, I’m pursuing graduate studies in Math, but work part time as a tutor at a nearby college. It is rare to see a woman instruct or tutor an upper level math course (i.e. differential eq. etc). Most of the students who comes in for tutoring in diffeq are men who range from late teens to thirties. There have been times where some would flirt and seem interested but nothing ever comes of it. Would this be considered a case of the “power nerd”?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ declaired,

    Most of the students who comes in for tutoring in diffeq are men who range from late teens to thirties. There have been times where some would flirt and seem interested but nothing ever comes of it. Would this be considered a case of the “power nerd”?

    I take it you are a woman?

    Yes, I think you are the power nerd to them. You in a position of higher status with respect to them; you are in a predominantly male field; and you are above them in something that’s probably either their core field or a requirement for it. So their reaction (conscious or unconscious) goes something like this: She has higher status, so she won’t think I’m good enough for her, and she’ll be dating a guy even higher, like a post-doc at the Uni.

    I’d like to give you an idea of how to break through that, but I’ve got to go. Maybe tomorrow.

  • Anacaona

    It’s so difficult for me to find compatibility that anything but the largest sites are a complete waste of my time, compared to the real-world.
    I was found unmatchable by E-Harmony it doesn’t get harder than that. I still found a dating site where my husband was waiting for me. If dating was easy, even online dating it wouldn’t be the business it is. Anyhow some alternatives for you: http://alikewise.com/, http://www.chemistry.com/
    To be honest my primary desire for online dating en France is to work on my written French.
    Mireille advice is on point.

  • declaired

    @ mr. wavevector

    Lol! Yep, I’m female through and through. Any ideas would be awesome. I can see where that mindset is coming from, but a lot of these guys are just really interesting in their own right. Some of them are so smart, but I don’t want to sound patronizing and say that to them when they are older than me.

  • Fifth Season

    @Sassy6519

    “I’m kind of a “size queen”, so I’m always silently praying that I’m not disappointed whenever a man takes off his pants for the first time.”

    I have to wonder just how much leeway you’ll give a man’s size before you walk out the door despite other factors. And can’t men wear jockstraps or the like to appear larger than they actually are?

    Chalk another one up to the “vibrators are better than men” camp; “vibrators are better than men because you can get any size you want when you want it.”

  • mr. wavevector

    @declaired,

    So, I’ve got some ideas for you! But first, a brief note about my hypothesis.

    Girls go to eleven

    The root of hypergamy is that women have intrinsically higher sexual and mating value. Men want their sex, and men who want children want their reproductive powers. This gives women a “hypergamous price premium” – a higher value over otherwise similarly matched men. If the scale for guys goes from 1 to 10, the scale for girls goes to 11.

    Both men and women know this instinctively. A man need to display higher value than a woman in something important to match her price premium. “Most women are at least mildly hypergamous and want a man who can top them” means that they want a man who has something valuable to offer beyond what they have themselves, and who will be useful to them as a reproductive partners. “Men know this and look for a woman they have a chance at topping”, because that means they can match her price premium.

    The problem of the overpriced female

    The problem for women like you who excel in traditionally male pursuits is that you are raising your mating price. Those traditionally male pursuits were the means by which men establish enough additional value to match the female price premium. When you do it, you add all that super-prestigious math value to your premium female price.

    And that’s not all! You’re in the position of an instructor of men who might be potential suitors. That’s a whole extra notch of value you’ve added to your price.

    So you’ve got a pricing problem. You’ve unwittingly increased your price beyond what most suitors can pay. My suggestions are twofold: try to avoid unnecessarily inflating your price, and help your potential suitors recognize their own value.

    Avoid price inflation
    The first thing to address is the price premium you get from your instructor / tutor role. You can’t make this go away but you can take steps to minimize it. Acting in an authoritative manner raises you price premium, while acting in a collaborative manner decreases it. For example, rather than “I will show you how to solve these problems”, use “let’s work through these problems together” to minimize the status difference. Find opportunities to give the student status. If a student has an interesting insight into the problem, say “that’s so insightful – I wouldn’t have thought of that”.

    I’ve got a story about this. I once approached a younger woman who was an instructor in something I was a hobbyist in. I asked her if she would be interested in mentoring my work. She was interested in meeting with me regularly but refused the role as a mentor. She said she couldn’t see herself in the mentor role with me because she thought of me as her peer.

    That was B.S., of course; she was certainly qualified to assume the mentor role. At the time I attributed it to feminine diffidence. But now I think that subconsciously she regarded me as a potential mating partner and she didn’t want to raise her price for me.

    If our positions were reversed, I would have had no hesitation assuming the mentor role. That shows the intrinsic gender asymmetry – the female has a higher starting value, and has to be careful not to overprice herself. The male has a lower starting value and has to work hard to increase his value.

    Find his value
    In order to combat your sticker shock, you can help a potential suitor find his value. The goal is to find the things about him that you actually do value – things that you think are interesting and smart and impressive. Start your session with some small talk – how was your week, do anything interesting lately, what do you do for work, hobbies, etc. Dig for stuff of value. If you find anything that sparks your interest and enthusiasm, show it! If you find something admirable, be admiring! Few things feel as good for a man as receiving admiration from a young woman.

    What you are trying to do is help a potential suitor find the way he can top you. If you are successful he will gain confidence that you are not out of his price range, and that he has a reasonable chance of pursuing you.

    This is not your grandmother’s dating advice!

    This all sounds a lot like the old dating advice for girls to massage the guy’s ego – don’t act too smart around him, let him win the games, etc. Actually, a lot of that advice probably worked. The essence of Grandma’s advice to girls was to keep their price affordable.

    I don’t think you need to act dumb to get a guy. But you will have to work harder to find his value than grandma did back in the day.

    The explanation for grandma’s dating tactics was to “massage the fragile male ego”. I don’t think it’s true that men have unusually inflated or fragile egos compared to women. But they do have some intrinsic sense of inferiority to women that they have to overcome, for the reasons I’ve described above.

    Grandma’s advice to girls was to lower their value more than most young women would consider acceptable today. My advice is not to lower your value but to avoid inflating it as much as possible, and then to work on raising your potential suitor’s value.

  • Mirielle wrote:

    Mr Nervous Toes where are you located? Are you living in the US?
    I’m not sure that, with the low number of replied guys get on OD sites, joining a french site is the best way to practice your french. Better to join a meetup group oriented towards languages, or get someone here interested in being a bilingual penpal.

    Oh no, I am moving to ‘Coeur de l’Alpes’ for a job. This is not an idle thing; VISA, etc. is all-assembled. I will try registering for Meetic again par terre with a local IP address.

  • @Mr NT,

    Lucky you, I have never been in this area but it is really beautiful, I’m told.
    OD is ok but I would definitely find a nice cafe I like and become a local there; you’ll find out that people warm up very slowly to you and then you’ll be in. It is not like in the US where everything is “awesome” all the time.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Anacaona:

    Are you kidding me? Had you read Cosmo? Women can and will buy a lot of crap that men don’t care or plain hate because the media tells them so. Do I need to mention armpitbleacher gate again?

    There is a huge difference between “buying crap” and undergoing major elective surgery. If you believe that women will do the latter simply because “the media tells them so” then you have a lower opinion of women than all but the most extreme MRA’s.

    We can’t have it both ways. Either we consider women, like men, to be (most of the time, at least) autonomous and rational beings, or we don’t. If the latter, this conclusion will have implications that most women, feminist or not, would not like at all.

    Escoffier:

    I don’t think that it is possible to ascribe the success of fake boobs simply to false advertising. One qualification that I should have made is that not all men like large breasts, whether real or fake. Men who dislike the results of breast augmentation surgery AND prefer small breasts are being perfectly honest. On the other hand, men see (unclothed) fake boobs in porn and in magazines like Playboy and Penthouse all the time. The evidence strongly suggests that they like the results. Actresses, models and centerfolds with large fake breasts are, ceteris paribus, more popular than those with small but real ones. (The models themselves notice the results and report this). Moreover, editors have stated that there is no significant difference in popularity between models with real and fake large breasts.

    Incidentally, breast augmentation is the single most popular form of plastic surgery undertaken in the U.S. today. This is all the more remarkable because it is a more radical and invasive procedure than virtually any other form of cosmetic surgery. Almost 370,000 such operations were performed in the U.S last year. This is not, by any plausible metric, a small total. Again, not all men like the results, but it is hard to see how one could maintain that this is just a niche market.

  • J

    Someone else had paid for my gas! It was a cute guy in a mini-cooper and we had a short convo at the pump.

    Wow!

  • declaired

    @ mr.wavevector

    Yay suggestions! The idea of making learning a collaborative effort is not only applicable to interacting with men, but it is part of my own teaching philosophy so we’re in agreement there. 🙂 People should take charge of their own learning, and the process is a lot more fun when they have a teammate to face their struggles with rather than being told what conclusions to form. So thank you for reminding me to set the tone up as a partnership from the beginning and maintain that dynamic because it’s really easy to be lured into the authoritative role when they want to get to the correct answers right away.

    About finding his value, making small talk is something that I really struggle with. Often times, when I’m watching other people’s conversations I pick up on the social cues, but being in the exchange is sensory overload. My mind just seems to have trouble following up with questions on the spot to keep them talking or make the conversation fun. Any suggestions on how to keep the ball rolling and get people to open up about themselves? There are people who have this amazing social intuition, and it makes them very charismatic. But how does one develop that intuition?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Not necessarily. Above average breast size, I guess. But yes, based on the photos I have seen I’d say that the female readers here are quite attractive. Of course, women who do not feel OK about their appearance are less likely to share a photo…”

    I thought of the last part about 10 seconds after I posted and suspect that is a strong part of it.

    However, food for thought.

    There seems to be a lot of disagreement around acceptable behaviour and female standards here (male as well).

    Perhaps,
    Your female commenters are above average whereas from what I can glean by self description your male commenters run the full gambit from low to high value.

    So, you have a lot of men reacting to hearing standards they are neither capable nor required to achieve which are being depicted as the norm by your commenters.

    Also, I suspect pretty woman are more likely to be social in any scenario including online. Used to a better reception and all that.

    Just a thought by the standards set here and then men I know its a miracle the species persists sometimes.

  • SayWhaat

    Grandma’s advice to girls was to lower their value more than most young women would consider acceptable today. My advice is not to lower your value but to avoid inflating it as much as possible, and then to work on raising your potential suitor’s value.

    Hi, wavevector! I don’t dispute the truth of your comment, nor am I criticizing it. Take what I am about to say as a petulant, whiny rant fueled by pomegranate margaritas.

    Why should I intentionally handicap myself in certain ventures in order to make any potential mate “feel good”? I confess that I find this hard to reconcile with your assertion that men don’t have fragile egos. If I am legitimately talented and hardworking in certain areas, then I don’t believe that I am “artificially inflating” my price — that is my price!

    Furthermore, why is it up to me to make someone feel good in comparison to my own attributes? I underwent a LOT of challenges to become the person that I am today. My hardest critic is myself. I push, push, and push myself to achieve more than I am capable of, so that even if I fall short by my own standards, at the very least I will have accomplished more than what I could have done otherwise. If I hold myself to these standards, why is it so unreasonable that someone else can’t do the same for themselves?

    That’s not to say that I can’t or won’t support my partner. But I don’t understand why I need to be his cheerleader before he even demonstrates that he can be a winning player in the game. I understand that men feel disadvantaged in this SMP and that the 60:40 male/female ratio bears evidence that there are certain disadvantages that men do face today, but given the obstacles that I have had to overcome (social ostracization, a warring family, child abuse, bullying (real and cyber), racism, sexual assault, unattractiveness, and attractiveness with the wrong kind of attention — just to name a few), why is it so unreasonable to want a resilient male who can demonstrate that he can overcome obstacles and be self-assured?

    Part of this complaint is that I have been doing some introspection as to what I require in a mate, and what I can compromise. I have realized that in order to pursue my career (or meaning in life, whatever you want to call it) as well as preserve the standard of living that I have been raised in, I must seek a mate who will earn a stable income in a somewhat prestigious career. However, I can’t fully respect a man unless he has some creative hobby on the side. These two attributes seem to be mutually exclusive at first glance, because the men with stable careers appear to be completely devoid of personality or passion, and vice versa.

    I know that I’m caught between a rock and a hard place. However, I do feel like I have a lot to offer a mate, and I don’t understand why I must compromise in this regard. Life isn’t fair, I’ve learned that lesson firsthand on multiple occasions, but I think that the root of the issue is that I believe I have overcome a lot in order to be the person that I am today, and I did it because there was no one else to believe in me but myself. And given that, I can’t help but view a man who thinks otherwise as Weak. Perhaps I am overvaluing myself, perhaps I really am priced out of this SMP, I don’t know. But I know that I am made of pure grit, and all I want is to find someone who is just as scrappy as myself.

    Maybe that’s still too much to ask.

  • Anacaona

    There is a huge difference between “buying crap” and undergoing major elective surgery. If you believe that women will do the latter simply because “the media tells them so” then you have a lower opinion of women than all but the most extreme MRA’s.
    Because men never do stupid things for the promise by the media they will get then laid with hot supermodels? Isn’t want of the things said here that men heard the “be nice be yourself’ and never got it didn’t worked for like eons? Why men can be lied to by the world and women cannot? After all no man ever said no to sex with a lady regardless of how plastic she looks. Hollywood would be celibacy-land if that were the case.

    We can’t have it both ways. Either we consider women, like men, to be (most of the time, at least) autonomous and rational beings, or we don’t. If the latter, this conclusion will have implications that most women, feminist or not, would not like at all.
    I have a major in advertising anyone (men and women) can be convinced of doing really stupid stuff if you push the right buttons. From voting for certain candidates, to join religions, to become atheists, to undergo plastic surgery… Both genders can be equally irrational and stupid most industries are counting on that to sell their crap and they are thriving. There is a reason consumerism is a thing.

  • Anacaona

    Perhaps,
    Your female commenters are above average whereas from what I can glean by self description your male commenters run the full gambit from low to high value.

    I think you forget that a lot of us are also late bloomers even if I became a model was after a reached 23 or so. So its not like we spent our teens being the prom queens. Also you have commenter like Sai that although pretty she doesn’t know it because of a complex set of reasons. Her objective value is of no use to her given that she doesn’t see it I suspect there are a lot more average girls that are invisible to the guys that are looking for advice. The sexy ones probably think they don’t have a boyfriend because they cannot pick among all the men they have around. Different problem, YMMV.

  • Richard Aubrey

    SW.
    If you can’t be your partner’s cheerleader, get a different partner. If you won’t be your partner’s cheerleader, get thee to a nunnery. Save a lot of aggravation all around.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “I think you forget that a lot of us are also late bloomers even if I became a model was after a reached 23 or so. ”

    I don’t disagree.
    What I am saying is if the female commenters are all above average and want X, Y and Z. Its reasonable to assume that X, Y and Z are (either individually or as a package) above average.

    Whereas the male commenters are more varied from high to low (based on self assessment).

    Its unsurprising to hear some men speak up and say X, Y and Z are unreasonable if they assume we are speaking about the average women which may not actually be what we are doing.

    Also, I suspect a lot of the lurkers span the entire gambit from low to high.

    Just some speculation as to the continuous disagreement.

  • Anacaona

    What I am saying is if the female commenters are all above average and want X, Y and Z. Its reasonable to assume that X, Y and Z are (either individually or as a package) above average.
    Define above average features. Part of the confusion has always being that men think a guy is a winner if he can get laid on command while for us if the guy lack other traits he reads as a loser, I doubt we will ever agree on that one but it would be interesting to see how YOU classify an above average individual.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Anacaona:

    I have a major in advertising anyone (men and women) can be convinced of doing really stupid stuff if you push the right buttons. From voting for certain candidates, to join religions, to become atheists, to undergo plastic surgery… Both genders can be equally irrational and stupid most industries are counting on that to sell their crap and they are thriving. There is a reason consumerism is a thing.

    I know it’s an article of faith among many in the advertising profession that they can sell snow to the Eskimos, but for the most part this is simply not the case. While human beings can and do behave irrationally, they are not infinitely malleable “if you push the right buttons.” The story is considerably more complex than that. Here is the best recent discussion of this subject:

    http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368855102&sr=8-1&keywords=thinking+fast+and+slow+daniel+kahneman

    The short version of the general argument (made by Kahneman and his colleagues such as the late Amos Tversky) is that people operate with mental processing rules that work well most of the time but fail spectacularly in some contexts. For example, most of us, including professional mathematicians and statisticians, are very bad at making probabilistic calculations in everyday life. (It can be quite fun looking at their examples – you have to force yourself to think in probabilistic terms to get the right results). If advertising really was as powerful as you suggest firms and political candidates would invest in little else. Econometric studies suggest that on the whole it is a highly profitable investment, but one which generally requires an intrinsically appealing product. This is why large and elaborately designed advertising campaigns have been known to fail in the most spectacular fashion.

    In any event this is something of a digression. My main point was not to characterize women’s decisions regarding breast augmentation surgery but rather to point out that there is a non-negligible demand among men for large fake breasts.

  • Anacaona

    I know it’s an article of faith among many in the advertising profession that they can sell snow to the Eskimos, but for the most part this is simply not the case. While human beings can and do behave irrationally, they are not infinitely malleable “if you push the right buttons.” The story is considerably more complex than that. Here is the best recent discussion of this subject:
    I actually agree with that. But the point I was making is that buying what media says is not a function of gender. I also think people has more or less need for status thus campaigns affect you differently.

    If advertising really was as powerful as you suggest firms and political candidates would invest in little else. Econometric studies suggest that on the whole it is a highly profitable investment, but one which generally requires an intrinsically appealing product. This is why large and elaborately designed advertising campaigns have been known to fail in the most spectacular fashion.
    Agree again you cannot paint a turd in gold and sell it. But you can paint a piece of lead with gold and get some profit. If is silver painted with gold even more.

    In any event this is something of a digression. My main point was not to characterize women’s decisions regarding breast augmentation surgery but rather to point out that there is a non-negligible demand among men for large fake breasts.
    There is demand for a lot of things. Do you have any data that shows that fake boobs women get marry a higher rates than natural but smaller women? I’m pretty sure if you have a big rack you get a lot of attention for sex. Does this works the same way for commitment?

  • Anacaona

    @Thrasymachus
    Thank you for the book, BTW. Is on my list of readings now 🙂

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    In women; above average beauty.
    In men; whatever is required to secure above average women for short or long term sexual relationships (with more value placed in short term).

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “If I am legitimately talented and hardworking in certain areas, then I don’t believe that I am “artificially inflating” my price — that is my price!”

    Certain areas are weighted more heavily than others.

    “I know that I’m caught between a rock and a hard place. However, I do feel like I have a lot to offer a mate, and I don’t understand why I must compromise in this regard.”

    I think you answered it yourself.
    Its kind of like my compromise to become a research scientist instead of lead scientist aboard a space ship that travels the universe (legit dream as a kid).

    Regardless of how unfair it is it is impossible.

    OTOH, I think you are underestimating the number of people who are both capable of providing a stable source of income (at the level you desire) and able to be creative.

    OTOH, if you want a CEO and a guy who plays concerts for a hundred thousand. You might be shit out of luck.

  • Gin Martini

    SW, I wrote a long, kind, sympathetic response rooted on my own similar problems at that age (ok, a bit younger), with a bit of perspective from things you can only get with experience. Who knows, that might even pass for wisdom.

    Then I deleted it. 🙂

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Anacaona:

    There is demand for a lot of things. Do you have any data that shows that fake boobs women get marry a higher rates than natural but smaller women? I’m pretty sure if you have a big rack you get a lot of attention for sex. Does this works the same way for commitment?

    I don’t know of any research that specifically compares the appeal of large natural and fake breasts, although as stated previously editors of men’s magazines have reported few significant differences between them. However, there are many studies showing that large breasts are considered attractive by many men. See this paper, for instance:

    http://web.missouri.edu/~rouderj/3010/readings/Singh.pdf

    The key quote from this study is the following:

    Female figures with large breasts and narrow hips were rated as most youthful, attractive, and desirable for casual and long-term romantic relationships.

    (Emphasis added)

    We should not expect to find a direct relationship between breast size and commitment. Instead, large breasts enhance a woman’s SMV and that in turn will enhance her MMV. Even this indirect relationship does not hold for all men, since some definitely prefer smaller breasts.

  • Thras,

    What I’m seeing is that it is only in the margin that increasing your breast size actually gives you a bump on your physical SMV (since we are only considering sexual appeal), but really when it is translated into MMV, your breast size might account for probably 0.5 on that scale.

    The fact is most women have breasts and can get long hair so that wouldn’t translate as a super game changer in how attractive you are. It is rather the quality/type of men you’re getting that will change. Of course for these men, since they value it more, they would consider bigger breasts as bumping you 1-2 points up.

  • @Ana

    Anyone (men and women) can be convinced of doing really stupid stuff if you push the right buttons. From voting for certain candidates, to join religions, to become atheists, to undergo plastic surgery…

    Yes, though I’m a fan of private enterprise, I have no love for the marketing profession. And though I can see rational for some % of breast surgeries (A-cup issues, asymmetry, reconstruction), the phenomenon by and large seems to be media-driven focus on self-esteem, or lack thereof. That also might explain the correlation found between cosmetic surgery, body dysmorphic disorder, and suicide risk (something to think about).

    Also, the numbers being discussed appear to be overstated. I was reading about breast implants (yeah, I know) over at the FDA:
    http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/ImplantsandProsthetics/BreastImplants/ucm259866.htm

    Which led me to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons statistics:
    http://www.plasticsurgery.org/Documents/news-resources/statistics/2012-Plastic-Surgery-Statistics/full-plastic-surgery-statistics-report.pdf
    Page 7 (shows number of procedures for women in 2012, 2011, and 2000):

    286,274 breast augmentations
    89,067 breast lifts
    42,022 breast reductions
    21,609 breast implant removals

    The numbers were down from 2011 (breast implants fell 7%), but still up quite a bit from 2000. Also, we don’t know how many repeat patients go in for cosmetic surgery over time. I’ll agree the raw numbers are significant, but they still represent less than 0.3% of all adult women in America.

  • Anacaona

    We should not expect to find a direct relationship between breast size and commitment. Instead, large breasts enhance a woman’s SMV and that in turn will enhance her MMV. Even this indirect relationship does not hold for all men, since some definitely prefer smaller breasts.
    Men prefer large breasts. That is a no brainer.
    The question is do their prefer large fake breasts to small natural ones? And what kind of men do prefer a fake breast than natural ones; unrestricted, beta, alpha and such?
    Get what I’m trying to measure?

  • Ana, I think that *most* men, if placed in a hypothetical vacuum, are attracted to large breasts, the famous waist-to-hip of .7, and a relatively slim and youthful figure with long legs and so on. There have been eye-tracking studies done on men that revealed that the male gaze will fall to boobs and waist/hip juncture with great speeds—measured in milliseconds (!) of exposure to the image of a woman. The speeds are in fact so extreme that the neocortex almost certainly isn’t really engaged in the scan; it is a preconscious screening of fertility markers.

    These results have been consistent across cultures.

    I think that in a state of nature there is normally a trade-off between some of these traits, so very large boobs on a slim girl would normally be rather rare. Breast augmentation has obviously made this physical outcome much more common, so I don’t think we are necessarily seeing a male preference for fake breasts so much as a natural male preference for large breasts suddenly being unconstrained by the male preference for a petite woman (the normal physiological tradeoffs are no longer present and it is perhaps more possible to have one’s cake and eat it, too).

    This artificial result has possibly led to a generalized re-calibration of SMV scoring metrics and more competitive pressure on women, but who knows. Intellectually the man may realize that the look he is excited by is a non-natural result, but there is a saying in neuromarketing that the limbic system commits the murder (makes the real decision) and the neocortex brings the sponge to wipe up the blood (supplies the intellectual top-cover rationalization).

  • mr. wavevector

    @ declaired,

    About finding his value, making small talk is something that I really struggle with. Often times, when I’m watching other people’s conversations I pick up on the social cues, but being in the exchange is sensory overload. My mind just seems to have trouble following up with questions on the spot to keep them talking or make the conversation fun. Any suggestions on how to keep the ball rolling and get people to open up about themselves?

    As a fellow introverted nerd, I’m not the best person to give advice on this topic. There are people with actual social skills who write books about this stuff! But here’s what I try to do. Look for something about what they are wearing, carrying, or doing that’s a conversation starter. Some current event can be used. I often have to resort to the “what do you do, where are you from” when I have no clue what to ask. Ask another question after the first for more specific information. Maybe to explain a job that you have no idea what it is, or if you do have some idea, something more specific. Then rack your brain for something you that you know or have done that is somewhat related, and mention that. Hopefully if they have any social skills they will take the opportunity to ask or respond in kind.

    If you see a student repeatedly it makes it easier because even if you pull a blank on the spot, you have until next meeting to think of follow up questions or topics of discussion.

    Whatever you discuss, you’re trying to get the interaction beyond the situation where you are socially dominant, as this suppresses most reasonable men’s mating instincts. this is particularly true for the more introverted and conscientious men who tend to inhabit the STEM professions.

  • Thrasymachus

    Mireille:

    I agree entirely that for most women breast augmentation would be a relatively inefficient method of increasing their general MMV. However, this does not appear to be the driving force behind these operations. The most commonly cited reason appears to be the desire to enhance the woman’s self-confidence and self-esteem – traits which are linked to SMV, not MMV. Other women have breast implants for professional reasons. Large breasted glamor models and centerfolds get more work, and waitresses get more tips if they are well-endowed. Another group of women do it to please one specific Significant Other – some husbands /boyfriends pay for the surgery. Again, my point was not to assess the rationality of breast augmentation surgery, but merely to state that it is consistent with the preferences of a non-negligible group of men.

    Anacaona:

    Here is one study reporting that enhanced breasts are MORE rather than less attractive than natural ones:

    http://www.academia.edu/2463857/Natural_and_Augmented_Breasts_Is_What_is_Not_Natural_Most_Attractive

    But let’s step back a bit. I stated that there is a substantial amount of evidence indicating that a non-negligible group of men like large breasts, whether natural or fake. Many studies show that large breasts are attractive to a substantial majority of men. Moreover, women whose careers depend on their physical attractiveness report that these careers benefit significantly after the women receive breast implants. Since this is true for centerfolds and strippers, who often appear topless, it cannot be due simply to deception. In addition, breast enhancement surgery is the most popular cosmetic surgery procedure performed in the U.S. and the world as a whole.

    Anyone who rejects my claim would need to provide an explanation that accounts for these facts. To date I have not seen anything of the sort in this thread. It’s always possible to maintain a skeptical position by making one’s epistemological requirements sufficiently demanding, but that is not a game I consider worth playing.

    Megaman:

    The data on the number of breast augmentations comes from the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery:

    http://www.surgery.org/consumers/plastic-surgery-news-briefs/popular-cosmetic-surgery-procedures-2012-1049714

    I have zero interest in engaging in a debate about which numbers are “more accurate.” I would observe only that every source I know agrees that breast augmentation is the most commonly performed plastic surgery procedure in the U.S. and the world as a whole, despite the fact that it is a more radical and invasive operation than virtually any other type of plastic surgery. We could argue about whether the glass is half-full or half-empty, but even using the lower figure it seems to me significant that each year over a quarter of a million American women undergo this procedure. Arm waving about the omnipotence of marketing and the media is not a satisfactory explanation of this phenomenon. For one thing, it is inconsistent with economic studies of the effectiveness of advertising.

    Bastiat Blogger:

    +1 on everything you say. You have articulated perfectly the structure of men’s preferences on this issue.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    Thanks for that response, because it’s pretty much the objection I was expecting.

    First, you are taking my answer to declaired far beyond my intended scope. Let me remind you I was responding to a particular question declaired asked; she tutors men in math who might be potential date material. The trouble is that her position as tutor makes her situationally dominant. This works against the female hypergamous instinct and the male instinct to demonstrate mating value. My advice was twofold – to explain the psychology that was handicapping her in this situation; and to help her widen the scope of the interaction beyond this limited domain in which she is dominant. Some of these guys might pretty awesome outside of the realm of partial differential equations, but the declaired’s situational dominance is suppressing romantic interaction as long as it remains focused on math problems.

    But since you raise some more general issues, let’s discuss!

    Why should I intentionally handicap myself in certain ventures in order to make any potential mate “feel good”? I confess that I find this hard to reconcile with your assertion that men don’t have fragile egos. If I am legitimately talented and hardworking in certain areas, then I don’t believe that I am “artificially inflating” my price — that is my price!

    I didn’t say men didn’t have fragile egos, I said they weren’t more fragile than those of women. For example, right here you are expressing ego threat – that can be construed as “fragile ego”. Look at how extraordinarily sensitive many women are to criticism or reality checks and tell me men are the only ones with fragile egos.

    There are two separate factors with respect to value – your actual value and how you display it. I did not suggest that declaired should lower her actual value. Rather I suggested she aware of how she displays it in a particular context where doing so would be unhelpful for her dating prospects. The same applies to you. There are times to flaunt what you have, and there are times to keep it to yourself.

    Second, you have to face that your apparent hypergamous impulses and personal ambition are at odds with one another. The more emphasis you put on ambition the more you restrict your mating possibilities. And if you are self centered and unconcerned with making a potential mate “feel good”, you restrict your possibilities even more.

    Life involves trade-offs and compromises. Stop bitching and deal with it. If you want a good husband, you may have to sacrifice some ambition and pride to get him.

    Furthermore, why is it up to me to make someone feel good in comparison to my own attributes? I underwent a LOT of challenges to become the person that I am today. My hardest critic is myself. I push, push, and push myself to achieve more than I am capable of, so that even if I fall short by my own standards, at the very least I will have accomplished more than what I could have done otherwise. If I hold myself to these standards, why is it so unreasonable that someone else can’t do the same for themselves?

    You sound very full of yourself. If you are so fine and self sufficient then you don’t need anybody else. But if you do need somebody else, then you aren’t so fine and self sufficient as all that. Get down off your horse and learn to compromise.

    why is it so unreasonable to want a resilient male who can demonstrate that he can overcome obstacles and be self-assured?

    It’s not. But most men’s dominance is highly situational. Men can be either subordinate or dominant based on social circumstances. It’s this psychological flexibility that explains why men, not women, are the primary builders of society’s hierarchical systems. Only assholes, psychopaths, and supermen are always assertive and self-assured.

    So unless you want to date an asshole, psychopath, or superman, you can’t expect him to act with assertiveness and assurance in social situations where he is placed in the subordinate role. That’s declaired’s problem. You have to see him in his own environment to see what he’s made of.

    But I don’t understand why I need to be his cheerleader before he even demonstrates that he can be a winning player in the game.

    You don’t. But it may be worth your while to find out what game he’s playing. And to do that, you need to let him play on his home field, not yours.

    However, I do feel like I have a lot to offer a mate, and I don’t understand why I must compromise in this regard.

    You want a resilient man who can overcome obstacles, is self assured, earns a stable income (and is willing to financially support you, it sounds like) in a prestigious career, and has a creative side. That’s a lot. What are you offering to such a man in return? There’s a whole lot in your note about what you think of yourself, but nothing about that.

  • @Thras
    I’ll take the results of the self-selected study (N = 361) you cited at face value. Though I had to wonder why over half the sample only spoke Farsi. I have no doubt that men generally prefer larger breasts to smaller breasts. I also have no doubt that some % of men specifically prefer enhanced breasts to natural breasts. I’ve seen no evidence it’s a majority, though.

    Obviously, plastic surgery is a totally self-selected phenomenon in America, not covered by medical insurance, with presumably higher income (and possibly older) women going under the knife. And there’s geographic concentration to consider (i.e. Beverly Hills), and the accompanying local SMP conditions that no doubt affect such preferences.

    Back to your original statement: One of the most common manosphere maxims is to watch what women do. Ms. Ana alluded to some relevant questions before (#333), which would help to understand this issue.

    Something practical, like:
    What % of women have ever had breast enlargement surgery (with no subsequent reduction)? What do they generally score on the sociosexual orientation index? What % of men would then rate them as more attactive post-op? And what do those men generally score on the sociosexual orientation index?

    Could you shed some light on this? I’d appreciate it.

  • Anacaona

    But let’s step back a bit. I stated that there is a substantial amount of evidence indicating that a non-negligible group of men like large breasts, whether natural or fake. Many studies show that large breasts are attractive to a substantial majority of men. Moreover, women whose careers depend on their physical attractiveness report that these careers benefit significantly after the women receive breast implants. Since this is true for centerfolds and strippers, who often appear topless, it cannot be due simply to deception.
    Do strippers get more marriage proposals after the surgery than before? Do they get married in larger numbers? Do their husband cheat less on them than the average smaller women? Do the men that visit strippers in a regular basis belong to the unrestricted or restricted cohort?
    You are missing the questions that matter in HUS. Women don’t come here asking How do I get a man to stare at my chest more? They come asking for advice to get a boyfriend. If you show me that a larger chest guarantees a loving husband then makes sense to get a large set of boobs if you are not born with one.

    Anyone who rejects my claim would need to provide an explanation that accounts for these facts. To date I have not seen anything of the sort in this thread. It’s always possible to maintain a skeptical position by making one’s epistemological requirements sufficiently demanding, but that is not a game I consider worth playing.
    I’m not rejecting your claim. I’m merely asking more information about the benefits for a woman looking to find the love of her life. How many women that report being in satisfactory relationships had gone through this procedure vs the one that have not?

    • Do strippers get more marriage proposals after the surgery than before?

      ROFL

  • Anacaona

    This artificial result has possibly led to a generalized re-calibration of SMV scoring metrics and more competitive pressure on women, but who knows. Intellectually the man may realize that the look he is excited by is a non-natural result, but there is a saying in neuromarketing that the limbic system commits the murder (makes the real decision) and the neocortex brings the sponge to wipe up the blood (supplies the intellectual top-cover rationalization).
    Again I just want a number. Know actually if there is a better chance of a single lady to find and keep a worth it man if she gets breast implants. This is a major decision that even though plastic surgery enthusiasts and women that live from their bodies make shouldn’t be taken as the Panacea for all their dating owes.
    Specially if the guys advising this are all single. If you have no put a ring on a hot DD then what was the point of her having them? A few romps in the sack with a hot man do no justify major surgery, IMO.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    I have realized that in order to pursue my career (or meaning in life, whatever you want to call it) as well as preserve the standard of living that I have been raised in, I must seek a mate who will earn a stable income in a somewhat prestigious career.

    Am I interpreting this correctly to mean that you are not capable by yourself of pursuing your career and maintaining the standard of living you are accustomed to? And furthermore, you want a man to support you at that level?

    That seems inconsistent with someone who is push, push, pushing herself to achieve and is made of pure grit. So perhaps I misunderstand you.

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    mr wavevector, I am applying the criterion in #337 to SayWhaat to your own posts.

    This paints a rather fascinating (if contradictory) picture.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    Sounds fascinating! Please explain.

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    I don’t have the time to go through all of examples, as you tend to be rather, well, prolific in your responses! 😉

    Here are a couple:

    First, interestingly both you and SW posted late-night thoughts that were of agitated concern to you both. In your case, you were writing comments at 2am, because you were afraid about divorce, bad dreams and marriage dissolutions within your age group and social circle. Remember this?

    (I think my response, which was followed up by Hope, was that the relationship meant so much to your wife that she was terrified of losting it.)

    Interestingly, while you tell SW to “quit your bitching,” in your instance the thread became all about how it could help you.

    People were actually quite empathetic in how they could ease your mind. In fact, your problem basically hijacked the post and took it to a very different place, eventually spawning a new post, IIRC.

    This tends to happen to many of the posts that are centered around the concerns of certain men here. Has a female commenter ever told them to “quit their bitching”? I honestly can’t recall but would be glad to be informed. In some ways, it is both interesting and informative. In other ways, it is surely behind the decrease in female commenting.

    Second, I also found it interesting that you ascertained that SW was “full of herself.” One of the tells of your posts is to *always* drop the dime about how some younger and hotter woman is secretly –or not so secretly!– sexually attracted to you, *or* to proclaim how your “SMV” far exceeds that of your wife.

    In your tribute to your wife, I believe, you started off by talking about how she was “wrinklier and saggier” but continued in a vein of how she provided such outstanding service to you, growing through the years. I think you compared her to a stock or a appreciating bond? Have you ever given her unmitigated praise that didn’t include trumpeting your own excellent qualities?
    ===
    It’s interesting that in many of my posts, which are often quite tough :), I will also think, “Physician, heal thyself” as there are corresponding areas where I can improve as well.

    Zach, for example, is someone with whom I have nothing in common, beyond both being carbon-based forms of life. I disagree with him on nearly EVERYTHING, but I have much to learn from him in the way he puts himself out there and doesn’t give up. If I took that page from his book, it’s likely I would be posting here as a happily-married commenter! 😉

    This is only one person’s perspective tho, mr wv, and other interpretations of all of the above are very well likely. Peace–

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    First of all, thanks for the constructive criticism. My first thought is I don’t agree with much of it, as follows, but I’ll certainly think about it.

    First, interestingly both you and SW posted late-night thoughts that were of agitated concern to you both. In your case, you were writing comments at 2am, because you were afraid about divorce, bad dreams and marriage dissolutions within your age group and social circle. Remember this?

    Certainly. But I’m missing the connection with SayWhaat’s post. I was expressing fear of something that could ruin my life. She was expressing fear of … what? Having to curb her ego a bit to make some guy feel good about himself? Is that a life destroying event?

    Perhaps I am not appreciating the nature or the severity of the “ego threat” I detect in SayWhaat’s note. I’ll think of it some more.

    Second, I also found it interesting that you ascertained that SW was “full of herself.”

    But I’m not complaining about being single, am I? It’s entirely true that I am cocky and self satisfied and somewhat arrogant. But despite all that (and possibly because of it) I was successful in dating and mating. Perhaps this is why: I never entertained the idea that I shouldn’t be making a romantic prospect feel good about herself. I never ranted about how I’ve done so much to achieve what I have, so why shouldn’t I expect a woman to be every bit as capable and accomplished and self sufficient as I and not be making all sorts of demands on me? Not one of the women I dated met that standard, and I dated them any way.

    Have you ever given her unmitigated praise that didn’t include trumpeting your own excellent qualities?

    Absolutely! Every day!!

    Just not on HUS.

    One of the tells of your posts is to *always* drop the dime about how some younger and hotter woman is secretly –or not so secretly!– sexually attracted to you

    Yes, but this is the only place I talk about that, and it’s because the argument is often made here that young women are not attracted to older men. That’s wrong – they are- and my experience is evidence of that. Those experiences are important for two reasons: 1) they serve as examples of the primary role that dominance/subordination play in heterosexual mating; 2) they boost my ego, which I like 😉

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    One more thought on being “full of one’s self”:

    My style of being “full of myself” was to signal to a girl – “I’m awesome! I can do great things for you!”

    What I hear SW signalling to a guy is “I’m awesome!” Why should I do anything for you?”

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    Thank you for considering my perspective! Though I never expected you to agree with me– aren’t you like the oldest person here? Most people in that generation are pretty set in their ways. My dad still writes letters!

    It’s interesting in that you perceive your situation are worthy of empathy, despite having a stable marriage and decades on SW, and not be able to extend that empathy to another person. What would it cost you?

    (Interestingly, from my POV these –along with your fervent reminders of your worth– could be another interesting pattern here. If you focussed more on the worth of others instead of your own, would you develop more as a person or less?)

    Why not be the bigger person and pass it on? Why play small? Truly great men help others feel they could become great as well.

    (You write of being arrogant, but arrogance is very different from confidence. Arrogance, to my reading of the word, is a place of inauthenticity and, therefore, weakness. Not one of strength.)

    IWhat I’m saying is, we all have fears, troubles and weak moments. I have TONS! In your case, your fear was met with empathy, well wishes and general kindness. (Actually, there was one guy who made a mean remark, but none of the chicks did.)

    I have often regretted snark and biting comebacks, but I have never EVER regretted being kind. You could have said the exact same words to SW in kindness and only increased their effectiveness.

    PS: I think if you shared the unmitigated praise of your wife here it would boost your esteem far, far more than any kind of self-aggrandization.

    Uncle Tom Munson was probably the bestest, smartest, most wonderful commenter here EVER. He won over every single heart and mind here, through his generosity (even to his enemies), wit and humor. His love, praise and respect for his wife was legendary.

    He used his intelligence like a sword– only for self-protection and never to make a hit or to show off. We could all learn from this wonderful man, may he rest in peace.

  • Jackie

    mr wv

    Gotta go soon, but —

    Maybe if you had said that, and given SW examples of how she could re-phrase things, you would have only won admiration and kudos? And effectiveness? 😉

    Also, I’d be interested in how you communicated that message to women? Could you give an example? How about a general example that women could use as well? Thanks for considering, mr wv 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    @ wavevector,

    I have to say that I am little taken aback at the anger in your comment. I said at the beginning of my post that I didn’t dispute the truth of your comment. I also admitted at the beginning of mine that it was a “whiny and petulant rant”, so I’m not sure why you felt the need to react so strongly. Silly me, I guess sympathy is only reserved for the men around here. 🙂

    That being said, perhaps I can take this opportunity to clarify my response and pinpoint your objections to my objections.

    Let me remind you I was responding to a particular question declaired asked; she tutors men in math who might be potential date material. The trouble is that her position as tutor makes her situationally dominant. This works against the female hypergamous instinct and the male instinct to demonstrate mating value. My advice was twofold – to explain the psychology that was handicapping her in this situation; and to help her widen the scope of the interaction beyond this limited domain in which she is dominant. Some of these guys might pretty awesome outside of the realm of partial differential equations, but the declaired’s situational dominance is suppressing romantic interaction as long as it remains focused on math problems.

    Agreed. If this is the pool that declaired is focusing on, then your advice is spot-on.

    Why should I intentionally handicap myself in certain ventures in order to make any potential mate “feel good”? I confess that I find this hard to reconcile with your assertion that men don’t have fragile egos. If I am legitimately talented and hardworking in certain areas, then I don’t believe that I am “artificially inflating” my price — that is my price!

    I didn’t say men didn’t have fragile egos, I said they weren’t more fragile than those of women. For example, right here you are expressing ego threat – that can be construed as “fragile ego”. Look at how extraordinarily sensitive many women are to criticism or reality checks and tell me men are the only ones with fragile egos.

    First, I think you misunderstood my objection here. It wasn’t an expression of “ego threat”; rather, it was an expression of disbelief that I should attempt to lower my value in order to find a mate. I prefer a dynamic in which both partners support and raise each other’s value. I’m more than willing to do that (and in fact, I did do just that in my previous relationship). But if one partner expects the other to hold themselves back, in order to pull the other one up…do you see why that might be an unhealthy power dynamic? That is the crux of what I was objecting to. I would much rather be with someone who will push himself to rise the occasion, rather than rely on me to constantly hold him up. Even better: we push each other to rise the occasion and hold each other up. See the difference?

    Second, you have to face that your apparent hypergamous impulses and personal ambition are at odds with one another. The more emphasis you put on ambition the more you restrict your mating possibilities. And if you are self centered and unconcerned with making a potential mate “feel good”, you restrict your possibilities even more.

    Life involves trade-offs and compromises. Stop bitching and deal with it. If you want a good husband, you may have to sacrifice some ambition and pride to get him.

    See, this right here is exactly what I was referring to. It sounds like you are urging women to feed the power dynamic that isn’t reciprocated. I intensely loathe two things: wasted potential, and power dynamics. I believe that neither makes for a healthy relationship. Will there be some amount of power dynamic in a relationship? Of course. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be ambitious and want an ambitious mate. He and I could be ambitious in completely different areas, for example, and I would respect him just as much for it.

    As to your “bitching” comment…Jackie addressed it well enough. Suffice it to say that I recall that I was one of those offering you sympathy during your moment of consternation, and here you are, yelling at me during my own moment.
    In other words, wavevector, I had no problem trying to make you feel better. I made you “feel good”. And look at what I got in return.

    Not what I want in any of my relationships, that’s for sure.

    You don’t. But it may be worth your while to find out what game he’s playing. And to do that, you need to let him play on his home field, not yours.

    Agreed, and I am more than willing to do that.

    You want a resilient man who can overcome obstacles, is self assured, earns a stable income (and is willing to financially support you, it sounds like) in a prestigious career, and has a creative side. That’s a lot. What are you offering to such a man in return? There’s a whole lot in your note about what you think of yourself, but nothing about that.

    I offer undying loyalty (almost to a fault), dedication to family, support, respect, commitment to working things out when times get tough, supporting him when things get rough (both financially and emotionally), my fertility, frequent sex, and much more. In fact, I demonstrated all of that and more in my previous relationship. The result was that he did not feel worthy of me, no matter how hard I tried to bring him up. I have walked this road already, wavevector, which is precisely why I am disagreeing with your advice. It works in theory but fails in practice.

    Am I interpreting this correctly to mean that you are not capable by yourself of pursuing your career and maintaining the standard of living you are accustomed to? And furthermore, you want a man to support you at that level?

    No, you misunderstand, again. If things work out then I will be more than capable of supporting myself and maintaining my standard of living. What I cannot offer at this time is stability (i.e., a stable source of income).

    I’m thinking of my future family. If I can’t offer stability, I owe it to my future children to have a mate who can provide that for sure. At some point, hopefully I will be able to offer it as well. But in the meantime, this is what I’m seeking in a mate. And that necessitates a man who is self-assured.

    I already acknowledged that I may be asking for too much. To that extent, I’m undergoing introspection as to what I can and cannot compromise on. And that starts with figuring out who is the kind of man that I can respect.

    I hope that all makes sense.

  • Ana, I don’t have the numbers you are looking for; I think you ideally want some kind of mathematical expectancy calculation comparing a woman who gets fake boobs vs. a woman who does not in a context specifically limited to the marriage domain.

    Maybe someone has done a study of breast size vs. speed dating results to see how busty girls fare relative to non-busty ones…?

    If we hypothetically took the same woman in all other respects and, controlling for other variables, had one version with real B cups and one with fake DD cups and then put them both at the same cocktail party one night, what would happen? I would speculate that the DD girl would get more general attention from the males present at the party, and that she would be instinctively rated *by the average man* as at least 10-15% more attractive than the near-identical B cup girl was rated (the 10-15% bump in perceived attraction is approximately the benefit that apparently comes from wearing a fiery-red dress vs. another color, and I would imagine that having much larger boobs would bring at least this much benefit).

    Insofar as attracting males by triggering their fertility buttons is a precursor to landing a husband, then breast augmentation would, to me, appear to have some reasonable benefit, with the gain being greatest for naturally small-busted women and lowest for naturally very busty women.

    Re: cheating. I suppose that a busty femme fatale who actively engaged in mate poaching might generally be more successful at it than an otherwise equivalent but non-busty femme fatale would be, but I don’t know if this means that her endowments would be less effective on a man who had a busty wife or GF at home.

    What is your female intuition on this topic? Would a typical woman be more prone to feel more of a twinge towards protective mate guarding behaviors if her boyfriend’s new co-worker and business trip companion was an attractive female with big fake boobs vs. an attractive woman without big fake boobs?

  • @WV / Jackie,

    Hummm, I’m going to come out of the shadows and point out that I do not hold back in stating my opinion. I did write many comments directed at some of the guys around here that could be summed up as “quit your bitching”, and I remember Mr WV being a target of that actually, as well as our dear friend LL. Of course, after many other comments, we finally get to the core of the issue and soften our words, but it is still out there.

    It is a very difficult think to speak frankly, trying to give just that right dose of tough love and manage the fine line between righteous critique and insult.
    I must say I have read SayWhaat’s interpretation of Mr WV’s advice numerous times previously coming from other females so I’m not surprised of the following reaction coming from a man.

  • Anacaona

    Insofar as attracting males by triggering their fertility buttons is a precursor to landing a husband, then breast augmentation would, to me, appear to have some reasonable benefit, with the gain being greatest for naturally small-busted women and lowest for naturally very busty women.
    Only if it attracts the marriage inclined males. I think you are making the mistake to assume that highest SMV = highest number of marriageable men approaching. When that is not always the case.

    What is your female intuition on this topic? Would a typical woman be more prone to feel more of a twinge towards protective mate guarding behaviors if her boyfriend’s new co-worker and business trip companion was an attractive female with big fake boobs vs. an attractive woman without big fake boobs?
    Worst person to ask this question I assets my risk of getting poached by observing the ALL females in close proximity to my husband regardless of anything: looks, age or whatever. If I smell any lever of interest I give them my best “Bitch what is your problem?” and I can look scary and crazy when I want to.
    The only ones I don’t mind much are lesbian (the butchy type, lipstick lesbians and bisexuals can be a danger too). The thing is men IME cheating men, cheat if is easy for them to do so and if they think the can get away with it. A new vagina regardless the owner is so I don’t see how checking for bust size should matter in this aspect.
    Marry a man that think cheating is disgusting, doesn’t have any cheating male friends, laid him regularly, support him emotionally, be a good enjoyable company and make sure there is little opportunity for it happen and if any woman that might feel that since he is such a good husband she could get him for herself, make sure she will know that you are crazy enough to destroy her life as she dares to destroy yours and I think problem solved, B, C, or DD’s, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    @BB
    Let’s image that you are a “relationship consultant” and Amy Farrah Fowler (Character from the Big Bang Theory and I don’t find her unattractive but the show makes sure to make her look as plain as possible so she will work)
    Walk to your office with this simple request:
    “I want to get married within 2 years to a good man that I love and loves me back and I have 10,000 dollars saved to be as attractive as possible”
    What she should invest her money on?

    This an open question but is more or less what I want to know for sure. I’m not opposed to breast surgery I even suggested it to my husband once and he was horrified of me ruining my perfect breasts, so they might small but they get the job done. 🙂
    But of my friends models and non models that get had gotten it done(around 6 that I know personally), they do get more attention, more drinks at bars… but no quality attention this are the same men that will try to get with other well endowed women at the same time, see who bites first, neither marriage proposals so I don’t see it as a good investment.
    In any case I would think getting plastic surgery to get a nicer face probably is more effective on getting a good man, but I wouldn’t know for sure since I don’t know anyone that has gotten it, YMMV.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    Hey, you’re giving me that psych analysis I asked for!

    Seriously, I appreciate the response. It’s interesting to see how one is perceived on the internet – it’s a media with so little feedback.

    Now, where’s my writing analysis?

    A couple of responses:

    No, I’m not the oldest here. Susan is older, as is J. And I was in first grade while Richard Aubrey was in ‘Nam.

    As for empathy. There are two aspects of empathy – understanding where someone is coming from, and responding to it. Being empathetic doesn’t mean that one is necessarily supportive or “nice”. Sometimes the nice response isn’t the most helpful. Sometimes people need to be told to stop bitching if they are only hurting themselves by doing so.

    It’s possible that I failed on both parts of empathy in my response to SayWhaat. Perhaps subsequent dialog will show that’s true. But the fact that I wasn’t nice and gave strongly worded criticism is not evidence that I was un-empathetic.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    First, I think you misunderstood my objection here. It wasn’t an expression of “ego threat”; rather, it was an expression of disbelief that I should attempt to lower my value in order to find a mate. I prefer a dynamic in which both partners support and raise each other’s value. I’m more than willing to do that (and in fact, I did do just that in my previous relationship). But if one partner expects the other to hold themselves back, in order to pull the other one up…do you see why that might be an unhealthy power dynamic?

    Yes, I may have misunderstood you. I agree with a lot of what you just said. The exception is this: I don’t agree that it’s necessarily unhealthy for someone to hold themselves back to pull someone else up. That’s what I do. I have children who can’t keep up with me. I have a wife who can’t keep up with me. I could just focus on myself and leave them in the dust. But I don’t. I slow down and help them and pull them up and I do it every single day. I have held myself back to do it. But I don’t regret it in the least.

    I’m not suggesting it’s a one sided relationship (with my wife – it’s more one-sided with the kids). She helps me and supports me in many ways. She has made sacrifices too and held herself back too.

    I’m not saying you should sell yourself short, SW, or choose a partner who can’t carry his weight in a relationship. But relationships are more about giving than taking, and you are often required to give up a lot.

    No, you misunderstand, again. If things work out then I will be more than capable of supporting myself and maintaining my standard of living. What I cannot offer at this time is stability (i.e., a stable source of income).

    I’m thinking of my future family. If I can’t offer stability, I owe it to my future children to have a mate who can provide that for sure. At some point, hopefully I will be able to offer it as well. But in the meantime, this is what I’m seeking in a mate. And that necessitates a man who is self-assured.

    It seems like I haven’t misunderstood by far. You can’t support yourself with any degree of certainty and you want a man to provide security for you. And you are correct – if that’s what you want, you need a self assured man.

    You said ” It sounds like you are urging women to feed the power dynamic that isn’t reciprocated.” But no – there’s the reciprocation right there – you expect him to provide security. But you apparently don’t want to “feed the power dynamic” that would motivate him to do that.

    And that’s the source of my annoyance, SW. I am left with the perception that you want to get a man to support you and provide security for you without understanding what that entails for him. Supporting another adult is a really big deal. In the age of feminism, there is no reason to expect a man to do it. It’s not the reciprocation of some hypothetical man that’s the issue, SayWhaat. It’s yours.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Mireille,

    I did write many comments directed at some of the guys around here that could be summed up as “quit your bitching”, and I remember Mr WV being a target of that actually, as well as our dear friend LL.

    I think everyone needs to be told to quit their bitching every once in a while, and me no less than anyone else.

    I must say I have read SayWhaat’s interpretation of Mr WV’s advice numerous times previously coming from other females so I’m not surprised of the following reaction coming from a man.

    I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you talking specifically about things SW and I have said, her or in the past, or more about the pattern: man says something (like I did), woman responds <like SW did), man responds to that (like I did)?

  • Ana, that’s a great q.

    1st recommendation: go see Susan Walsh and her strategy team at HUS.

    My subjective opinion: if she had serious issues on the orthodontic or body composition sides, I would recommend that the $10k be spent on dental work and/or a comprehensive fitness and nutrition programs.

    If she had a nice smile and was flat-chested with an otherwise cute figure, then, yes, I’d probably send her to a good surgeon for breast augmentation. The implant size suggested would vary with her body type, boob-idol preferences, and the average daily temperature of her localized SMP (hotter climate=less clothes=bigger advantage to “Pow!” level boobs).

    If she had the smile, boobs, and overall figure, I’d recommend wardrobe, hairdresser, and cosmetics investments that were flattering for her. Some kind of makeover with a professional stylist.

    If she had the smile, boobs, overall figure, and style covered, I’d put the $10k into a variety of different personal development and lifestyle projects…books, cooking and fitness classes, etc. It would be all over the place—$100 there, $200 there.

    Just my $.02! I know that I say some unpopular things on HUS occasionally, but I try to contribute by giving honest comments about how at least one eccentric type of man thinks about the SMP.

  • @Mr WV,

    I was talking about the “Why do I have to dumb it down to get a guy” argument and the following back and forth between women and men.
    I used to think that way myself a while ago, that was until I realized, to hell with the PC, I know I can offer the “boring” things men want and I want a man’s devotion in return so whatever it takes. I guess I saw it as another sign of my “smarts and superiority over men”.

    Call it manipulation, Mwahahahaha!!!!

  • Anacaona

    @BB
    You should see Amy to pick an strategy for her.

    Just my $.02! I know that I say some unpopular things on HUS occasionally, but I try to contribute by giving honest comments about how at least one eccentric type of man thinks about the SMP.
    Is not unpopular for me, is just that no woman has caught you yet. So whatever attracts you doesn’t translate into commitment in your part. Don’t take it personally I have a good opinion of your smarts and curiosity in spite of your dating habits but, I suspect than trying to attract a man like you was the mistake Kate Bolick did, can’t endorse your advice if the results are not what women here desire can I?, YMMV.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Mireille,

    I guess I saw it as another sign of my “smarts and superiority over men”.

    One of the nice things about more traditional gender roles is that they provide separate domains for both women and men to feel superior to the other. That gives each sex a sense of validation and importance, rather than having those things continuously contested and negotiated.

  • Jeremy

    Ana is right. Large breasts seem slutty so nice guys don’t prefer them the way players do.

    They even did a study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210352/

  • @Jeremy
    Thank you! I eat relevant information like that for breakfast.

  • SayWhaat

    You said ” It sounds like you are urging women to feed the power dynamic that isn’t reciprocated.” But no – there’s the reciprocation right there – you expect him to provide security. But you apparently don’t want to “feed the power dynamic” that would motivate him to do that.

    And that’s the source of my annoyance, SW. I am left with the perception that you want to get a man to support you and provide security for you without understanding what that entails for him. Supporting another adult is a really big deal. In the age of feminism, there is no reason to expect a man to do it. It’s not the reciprocation of some hypothetical man that’s the issue, SayWhaat. It’s yours.

    No, wv, you’re still misunderstanding me.

    I don’t care if my mate earns less than I do. I’m not looking for financial support in that regard. What I am looking for is someone who has a steady source of income while I tackle projects in an industry where things get cancelled as quickly as they get picked up. Starting out, my career will surely be volatile, but over time as I build my reputation in the industry, it should become more consistent. Eventually, things will even out, but the foundation of a stable family begins with at least one stable partner. I could very well end up earning at least or more than him, but that’s not important to me. I’m not even asking him to support the both of us, not even at the beginning. But I do want to know that he has a comfortable career.

    It’s the same reason that I don’t want to date someone in the same industry as me. My parents both work for the same company, and we were all scared as hell when the company started announcing layoffs. What would we do if they both lost their jobs? They’re getting old, and my sister is still in college. I don’t want to put my future family through that. If one industry suffers in the event of a poor economy, the other should be able to keep the family unit afloat.

    In other words, together we would be a diversified portfolio of assets. 😛 That would be the reciprocal nature of our relationship.

    Make sense?

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    Ha ha! Using your own words to ask a question isn’t a psych evaluation! Though it would be interesting to see the complexes of HUS laid bare.

    I learned that empathy is being able to vicariously experience the feelings of another person. It is hard for me to reconcile that with “quit bitching.”

    It’s not about being “nice;” it’s about relating and understanding and effecting change. You appear to be deflecting, dismissing and pontificating. I see very little results or effectiveness through your method, mr wv, but would be glad to be proved wrong! 😉

  • Jeremy, in the very interesting paper you linked to, “unrestricted” men basically had greater response weightings to ALL female attractiveness/fertility cues, not just big boobs.

    “Previous research reported that sexually unrestricted men, in comparison to sexually restricted men, valued physically attractive females more highly (Simpson & Gangestad, 1992) and show greater sensitivity to female facial cues (Sacco, Hugenberg, & Sefeck, 2009). They likewise give females with low WHR and low BMI a higher attractiveness rating (Swami, Jones, Einon, & Furnham, 2009). Both traits are known to be highly attractive and related to female fertility (e.g., Singh, 1993; Tovee, Maisey, Emery, & Cornelissen, 1999). Li and Kenrick (2006) showed that men prioritized physical attractiveness even more for short -term than for long-term mates.”

    I think that this is a different issue. If we are talking about boobs and attractiveness assessments by men, then the argument could be made that a woman should go to the most critical and superficial men and ask them what they find attractive, as these men really care—perhaps exclusively care—about looks. This would be the “worse case scenario” for a woman to deal with.

    She could simultaneously find a cabal of ultra-restricted men who do not care about how physically attractive a woman is, and ask them what personality or intellectual features they find sexy/attractive in a woman.

    If you combined both (assuming this was possible), wouldn’t you have the ultimate SMP operator? She has the looks to attract even the most superficial men and the brains to attract even the most abstract intellectuals and the personality traits to attract even the most emotionally demanding men…?

    If the argument is being made that big boobs actually repel or disgust restricted men, I think that is not indicated by the data. It seems that we are seeing that unrestricted men care more about sexy looks and that big boobs are associated with sexy looks, so unrestricted men care more about big boobs.

    Thoughts…?

  • Escoffier

    Thras threw some cold water on this but I assumed (perhap based on nothing more than personal preference) that the categories big v. small are not binary. That is, there is good big and bad big. Bad big would included “too big” as well as “badly shaped” (lots of permutations here) and also … FAKE!! Does anyone know if a serious study has been done to test men’s preference of big real v. big fake?

    I doubt that “good big” would ever repel even the most restrictive of men, on that basis alone. That is, there may be a taste issue to prefer small, which in turn migh correlate with restrictiveness, but is not necessarily caused by it.

    However, I find it highly plausible that a restrictive man may be in some respects intimidated by big boobs, along the lines of, “She must get hit on a lot and have her pick, I have no shot, moving on.”

  • Man

    #361:

    As predicted, men with higher SOI-R scores (unrestricted) generally gave higher ratings than did men who scored lower on the SOI-R (restricted), but the difference was significant only at larger breast sizes. We also found that medium to large sizes were rated as the most attractive by both male groups and that viewing angle changed rating of female attractiveness and breast presented in oblique view were rated generally higher than in side view. The results of the study indicate that sociosexuality influences male perception of female breast attractiveness and confirm that accentuation of female-specific physical traits produces a stronger response in unrestricted than in restricted men.

    “For instance, Furnham and Swami found that men preferred small breasts to large ones, when presented in side view and suggested that this result was due to the viewing angle.”

    The viewing angle also explains a lot of things. The study is pretty in line with my expectations and views about it.

  • Anacaona

    However, I find it highly plausible that a restrictive man may be in some respects intimidated by big boobs, along the lines of, “She must get hit on a lot and have her pick, I have no shot, moving on.”
    This really doesn’t matter why big boobs attract the wrong type of man more often than not, for a woman seeking marriage. If it happens is a bad investment for a woman to do, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    Ana,

    The implicit assumption of such men (beyond that is their own attraction triggers) is that bigger correlates with sluttier. I could not say how true this expected correlation is, except that I doubt it correlates much.

    In any case, whatever the correlation, certainly the cohort of women with bigger busts who are not slutty will be very large in terms of sheer numbers. Perhaps to some extent the endowment alone will suffice to attract lots of unwanted players. But that can be minimized through clothing choices, demeanor and the like which convey “not slut.” Anecdotal but my college GF was rather large and just about the least slutty college girl one could imagine. Of course, it was a far less slutty time in general. And then, unlike today, non-sluts did not wear slutty clothing. Whereas I understand that today, non-sluts routinely wear slutty clothing, which confuses the market.

    • Perhaps to some extent the endowment alone will suffice to attract lots of unwanted players. But that can be minimized through clothing choices, demeanor and the like which convey “not slut.”

      One day a few months back some of us who were busty at a young age shared here how we’d been sexually propositioned by teachers, fathers of friends, fathers at babysitting jobs, and friends of the family as early as age 14. It happened to me several times before I got to high school.

      It’s hardly surprising that unrestricted men, who are much more likely to be STR-oriented, would place more value on large breasts. They view them as funbags for a night, not something that would ever have a higher purpose. Part of the STR-orientation is high novelty seeking, and large breasts do that for some men.

  • Anacaona

    But that can be minimized through clothing choices, demeanor and the like which convey “not slut.”
    So you get a breast enlargement just to make sure to cover yourself as much as possible after it? Isn’t better to keep your modest size to begin with, then?

    Also for you big boobs fans out there, what about push up bras? Is the best of both worlds like the enticing visual with the natural feel or is considered a fraud?

  • Escoffier

    Oh, I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about being big generally, not about a specific “investment” in implants.

    In that case, I would say, yes, they are probably not a good way to attract a husband. I base that on the assumption that, of those men who prefer big and either positively like fake or else don’t care if they are real or fake, such men will tend toward a more STR orientation. I could be wrong about that but it seems plausble.

    Never had any issues with push-ups myself. Nothing fraudulent about them, IMO. If they make you look good and feel good (that is, both physically and otherwise, so that you don’t feel “cheap” or “fake” wearing one), then go for it.

  • Anacaona

    Oh, I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about being big generally, not about a specific “investment” in implants.
    That is the discussion here brought by BB friend who is having a lot of success with the male gender after getting implants and supported in part by Thrasymachus.
    I’m sure no one is telling well endowed girls to get rid of their boobs. But is the believe that the women that are going through the procedure are successfully catering to males. The question is what type of men and if all the extra attention will gain them rings or just more chances of getting pumped and dumped. I think is the later but I could be wrong.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Anacaona:

    Do strippers get more marriage proposals after the surgery than before? Do they get married in larger numbers? Do their husband cheat less on them than the average smaller women? Do the men that visit strippers in a regular basis belong to the unrestricted or restricted cohort?
    You are missing the questions that matter in HUS. Women don’t come here asking How do I get a man to stare at my chest more? They come asking for advice to get a boyfriend. If you show me that a larger chest guarantees a loving husband then makes sense to get a large set of boobs if you are not born with one.

    Unless you are very, very lucky you will not find find research that provides the customized answers you seek. I don’t have that information, but what is more important is that probably no one else does either. Most of the research on these issues is conducted by sociologists and psychologists who are trying to answer general questions about human sexual behavior and attitudes. On rare occasions a social scientist will conduct a study that is precisely designed to answer a question that you have in mind, but you can’t count on this occurring very often.

    Nevertheless, there are hundreds of studies that contain relevant data, although this information is not customized in the way that you want. On the whole, however, the information we have is not consistent with claims that only unrestricted men prefer large fake books to small real ones or that large breasted women do not receive more “quality attention.” There is simply too much evidence to the contrary – in fact, I have already quoted one study showing that large breasted women were preferred for both short AND long term relationships.

  • Escoffier

    Ana, good question, I don’t know the answer. What I want to believe is that more men–and especially “good” men–will always prefer real to fake regardless of size. But, to support Thras with anecdata, as I recall the handful of silly “just us guys” locker room-type conversations I’ve had on the subject, even guys I know who are faithful husbands divide more or less evenly in preference for, or indifference to, faketude v. revulsion.

    I am probably more of an outlier than I suppose. I know I am with regard to certain related matters, c’est la vie, I got what I wanted in all respects and so shouldn’t complain about what others like.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Anacaona:

    I have not recommended that any women receive implants. In fact, I agreed with Mireille that for most women this is likely to be a relatively inefficient way of improving their general MMV. My claim is that a non-negligible number of men prefer large fake boobs to small real ones.

    @Escoffier:

    Male preferences concerning breast size are all over the map. Yes, there is “good big” and “bad big,” but you can’t assume that for all men fake breasts necessarily fall into the latter category. Incidentally, I listed a study showing that fake breasts were rated as MORE attractive than real ones.

  • Escoffier

    “I listed a study showing that fake breasts were rated as MORE attractive than real ones.”

    I saw. Bewildering to me. Which is different from “false” of course.

  • Anacaona

    Unless you are very, very lucky you will not find find research that provides the customized answers you seek. I don’t have that information, but what is more important is that probably no one else does either. Most of the research on these issues is conducted by sociologists and psychologists who are trying to answer general questions about human sexual behavior and attitudes. On rare occasions a social scientist will conduct a study that is precisely designed to answer a question that you have in mind, but you can’t count on this occurring very often.

    We had seen studies measuring a similar correlation with short women: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men.html
    From the study:
    “The average height for a British woman is 1.62 metres (5 feet, 4 inches). But those who were between 1.51 and 1.58 metres were most likely to be married and to have children by the age of 42. This relationship held true even after accounting for social class.”

    All we need is a similar study correlating bust sizes of women see their marriage and children rates. Not that hard IMO.

  • I have seen some women get boob jobs to look better in clothes, not necessarily to look sluttier. Breasts at the right place in a garment change how you look as well as your posture drastically, for any woman.

    Now, my opinion has already been shared earlier. My experience with well endowed female friends is quite particular. I could see the chubby girls with big ones and the slim girls with big ones, and attraction is definitely not the same. Even if we agree that all men love big breasts in general, there are still some differences when coupled with weight. I don’t know, that’s my little anecdotal observation, don’t know the science behind that.

    One thing could be said that big breasts, real or fake attract most men in general. Fine. You could also have a group of men who just likes natural ones (big/small) or another one that only likes big (real/fake).

    Having big ones (with or without surgery) would increase the pool of theoretically interested men. However, just like for anyone, it doesn’t remove the need to filter. I guess the women considered more “attractive” by these standards will have to filter even more; when you consider it is already a daunting task for the regular B cup gal, I don’t see the point.
    It would have to be that your prospect were actually close to nil for surgery to be your best option to boost your appeal, like having A cups. But then, granted you have no experience dealing with that type of attention, a woman would be the perfect candidate to be P&D unfortunately.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    I learned that empathy is being able to vicariously experience the feelings of another person. It is hard for me to reconcile that with “quit bitching.”

    Right. And one of the feelings that one may experience vicariously is self center entitlement. (Not saying that’s what SW is expressing, although that was my initial opinion). In that case, “quit bitching” is an appropriate response. Empathy and sympathy are two different things, and the former does not imply the latter.

    As for results and effectiveness, this conversation started with a question that declaired asked me at #302, her first comment on the site. I appear to have answered it to her satisfaction – SayWhaat’s miscontrual of my point not withstanding.

  • Anacaona

    I saw. Bewildering to me. Which is different from “false” of course.
    Not really for me… Had you heard of this series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_Senos_no_hay_Para%C3%ADso
    Is quite a common phenomenon in Latin America.

  • Escoffier

    “Even if we agree that all men love big breasts in general, there are still some differences when coupled with weight.”

    Definitely. The science is simple, and hashed out often here. It comes down to the “ideal” 0.7 w/h ratio.

  • One popular explanation is that STR-oriented men will be more sensitive to fertility cues because the relationship won’t involve much more than sex, so they want to optimize their reproductive success. The fertility cues (like big boobs, WHR, etc.) are weighted very heavily by these men.

    An LTR-oriented man, on the other hand, will have a weighting that includes both fertility cues (his genes wants him to reproduce, after all) and other aspects. So I suppose that we could say that:

    STR-oriented man: attractiveness assessment = f(physical fertility cues)

    LTR-oriented man: attractiveness assessment = f(physical fertility cues + superior companionship cues)

    Let’s be simplistic and say that the model for physical fertility cues had 5 factors: pretty face, WHR converging on .7, long slim legs, large bra cup size, and lustrous hair.

    If the feral STR-seeking player gave equal weights to these, then each would give a 20% contribution to his attractiveness model.

    Let’s say that the LTR-seeking “dad” gave equal weights to these as well, but his physical scores were only 50% of his complete attractiveness model (LTR=f(50% physical fertility cues, 50% superior companionship cues). He would automatically lower the value of cup size, face, hair, WHR, and legginess down to half the previous contribution. So while big boobs might contribute 20% to an STR player’s assessment of female attractiveness, they would only contribute 10% to the LTR man’s assessment. They would still have a positive benefit so far as an LTR seeking man would logically still care about fertility cues.

    If these controlling assumptions were correct, a woman who had a small bust and who wanted attention from STR-oriented men would benefit the most from implants, while a woman who already had a substantial bust and who wanted attention from LTR-oriented men would benefit the least. This seems intuitive to me.

    I think it is important to note that STR and LTR-seeking characterizations are not fixed in place like character alignments in some real-world Dungeons & Dragons experiment. The football playing fraternity brother is not permanently fixed as a “chaotic evil/anticleric” while the poetry-reading STEM introvert is fixed as “lawful good/ paladin”. Men will obviously adjust their strategies according to incentives, opportunities, and threats.

    If we drop a hook-up culture environment on the above, it adds possible complexities because now LTRs are somewhat constrained by STRs—the STR funnel might have to be successfully navigated before an LTR can be obtained. Maybe that means that women have more pressure to appeal first on a physically-competitive STR basis and then to establish the LTR traits as differentiators afterwards. I don’t know; would be interesting to hear from the women in the arena (college students) on this.

  • Escoffier

    Ana, you know how there are some things you don’t like but you can think “This is not for me but I get why other people like it”; and then there are other things where you think “That is so awful I can’t understand why anyone likes it.” For me, this one is in the latter camp.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    Thanks for explaining more – I understand better now. In fact that’s a situation I am very familiar with. My brother is in a creative profession and largely depends on his wife for a stable income (and health benefits). Actually, she’s the primary breadwinner. Despite his continuing pursuit of his dream it still hasn’t paid off financially particularly well.

    It’s a situation where the steady partner runs the risk of supporting the creative partner indefinitely. That in my mind would lower a potential partner’s value unless there were a good chance of a big upside. But everyone has their own ideas about risk vs. reward.

    So why don’t we get back to your original objection.

    Why should I intentionally handicap myself in certain ventures in order to make any potential mate “feel good”?

    which you subsequently clarified as

    it was an expression of disbelief that I should attempt to lower my value in order to find a mate

    I think that was a misinterpretation of my advice to declaired. You shouldn’t. I didn’t say you should. But you might want to be aware of situational power dynamics that could deter potential mates.

  • @ BB

    If we drop a hook-up culture environment on the above, it adds possible complexities because now LTRs are somewhat constrained by STRs—the STR funnel might have to be successfully navigated before an LTR can be obtained. Maybe that means that women have more pressure to appeal first on a physically-competitive STR basis and then to establish the LTR traits as differentiators afterwards.

    Do you think this is what your friend is doing? You probably expanded on that earlier and I missed it. What was her cup size before, by your “expert” estimates (lol)?

    I know that personally, as a highly restricted woman, I’m still conscious of raising my SMV, albeit naturally and tastefully, but still. Displaying high SMV is as important as displaying my high MMV as well. It is the difference between sexy and trashy.

  • JhaneSez

    “You’re going to tell me that not even ONE of those guys was suitable for her? 25 dates is a lifetime for some men and this was probably done in a couple of months for her.
    If women had realistic expectations then most of this would be moot.”

    When I was single I went on a lot of dates because I constantly met new men. So I would like to answer the above question and offer a meeting strategy.

    Online Dating (not really)…

    It was assumed that in order to meet a large number of men I had to have done some online dating and the answer is both yes and no… I made friends and met guys through message boards on sites like Napster, Netflix, etc… these environments were much less stressful or awkward because there was a built in focal point for the conversation, and it allowed for much more organic flirting to develop.

    And while these sites currently either don’t exist or have changed their social media I find that specific groups are sometimes better for getting to know people i.e. t.v show fan sites, meet ups (especially for board game groups or culinary events, like pizza making or micro brew beers).

    In other words I met people online, but my initial primary purpose wasn’t dating per se, but to immerse myself in a target rich environments where I could get to know people and either date or get introduced to potential dates.

    As for how you can date 25 guys and not find a boyfriend…

    Because its easy for a woman to get laid and penis is plentiful, so you have to have coffee with a lot of frogs if you want to find a boyfriend. And that isn’t hypergamy or being to picky, it is necessary to keep from riding the mythical carousel.

    When you have a you have a large number of people to filter through as a woman most of them will be men who are STR at best, ONS more likely. If you are looking for an LTR it is in your best interest to make the best match possible to keep your number down.

    For women dates are like the number of resumes and interviews you have to go through when you are looking as a career professional vs. just a paycheck, because you aren’t looking for something til better comes along.

    Its not a good LTR job or relationship strategy to change employers or boyfriends every month or so… which is what you set yourself up for if you go in with the mindset of I’ve gone out with X number of guys I better pick.

    Lastly as it was pointed out earlier (boob vs penis enhancements)… you can’t compare male and female experiences. ~JS

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I do think that, by and large, most men whether STR or LTR oriented will, all other things being equal, prefer large to small. Up to a point, that is, with C-D being in the fat part of the curve, so to speak, and larger than D appealing more to a minority.

    The behavior you describe would seem to go well beyond a mere STR orientation and into a character issue. Me being reactionary, I would say that being STR-oriented is in itself a character issue. But I know you don’t believe that. However, we would both agree that hitting on very young girls, when the man KNOWS their age (and is himself married, AND is in some position of authority) is just really bad. In that case, it’s really not the breast that’s the important issue, it’s his own bad character.

    What I would also say is that, the more sensible a man is, the more he screens women for character in addition to looks, and indeed in precedence over looks. Which is to say, an intelligent man who wants a good wife is not going to turn down his dream girl over a too-small cup size. He knows that other factors are more important.

    Whereas, for a player, the boner test is all that matters. And if small fails his test, then he will indeed move on.

  • mr. wavevector

    One day a few months back some of us who were busty at a young age shared here how we’d been sexually propositioned by teachers, fathers of friends, fathers at babysitting jobs, and friends of the family as early as age 14. It happened to me several times before I got to high school.

    I’ve been in the position of having a real hard time keeping my eyes off the 13 year old baby sitter who suddenly sprouted a magnificent rack.

    • I’ve been in the position of having a real hard time keeping my eyes off the 13 year old baby sitter who suddenly sprouted a magnificent rack.

      And that’s why male sexuality is so often shamed.

      P.S. She knows it. She sees you stealing glances at her. She’s filled with shame and disgust at her own changing body as a result.

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    How about NOT sexualizing children? Just look away. Simple.

  • mr. wavevector

    And that’s why male sexuality is so often shamed.

    P.S. She knows it. She sees you stealing glances at her. She’s filled with shame and disgust at her own changing body as a result.

    Male sexuality is shamed because we have instinctual urges that we have to work hard to contain? That’s absurd.

    The fathers propositioning the babysitters? That’s a different story. Shame them all you want.

    • Male sexuality is shamed because we have instinctual urges that we have to work hard to contain? That’s absurd.

      No, it’s because you fail to contain them. What does containing them look like? Neither your babysitter nor your wife would guess what you are thinking in a million years.

      Yes, grabbing the babysitter, flirting with her – those are worse. But letting your eyes fall on her rack – even once – is totally inappropriate. A 13 year old is a child.

  • JhaneSez

    “@mr wv
    How about NOT sexualizing children? Just look away. Simple.”
    “And that’s why male sexuality is so often shamed.
    P.S. She knows it. She sees you stealing glances at her. She’s filled with shame and disgust at her own changing body as a result.”

    Grown men have been making it known that they found me sexually attractive since I was 11… I was still playing with Barbie’s.

    Being sexualized by a grown man is not a young girl’s fantasy… it is gross and uncomfortable.

    Stop it ~JS

  • mr. wavevector

    Just look away. Simple.

    Actually, empathy queen, it’s not simple. Not simple at all.

    If it were simple I wouldn’t have had a hard time doing it, would I?

  • mr. wavevector

    No, it’s because you fail to contain them.

    But not for want of trying. Have you ever tried to do something, but failed?

  • Escoffier

    “even once”

    So, wouldn’t studiously looking away at all times also send a strange signal? Honest question.

    • “even once”

      So, wouldn’t studiously looking away at all times also send a strange signal? Honest question.

      Well, if you put your hand up to limit your peripheral vision when she walks by, yes. Your job is to interact with her without regard for her breasts!

      But not for want of trying. Have you ever tried to do something, but failed?

      This is a zero tolerance issue. Avoiding the sexualization of pubescent girls is a matter of character. How do you feel about the idea of a 7th grade teacher leering at your daughter’s breasts while she’s not looking? And how do you think she would feel if she caught him? I can tell you how, and it’s not something you want her to experience. She will feel like prey.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’ll give you something else you can try to shame me about. At my uncle’s funeral one of my cousins (daughter of the deceased) was displaying a surprising amount of cleavage for the occasion. I found it hard to keep my eyes off that too.

    • I’ll give you something else you can try to shame me about. At my uncle’s funeral one of my cousins (daughter of the deceased) was displaying a surprising amount of cleavage for the occasion. I found it hard to keep my eyes off that too.

      Is she also a child?

  • What I wonder is whether it would be more acceptable if a 15 year old teenage boy commented on a 13 year old girl’s rack. Would it make a difference, compared to a more adult man?

    • I’m in no frame of mind to split hairs on what constitutes predatory behavior of pubescent girls. I’ll bow out of this conversation and take a break from this blog.

      Mr. HUSs birthday is tomorrow, and I’m going to go make Tiramisu for his cake.

  • Jackie

    @mr wv

    I didn’t say “easy;” I said “simple.”

    mr wv, how do you feel about men sexualizing your daughter?

  • Jackie

    @mr wv (399)

    Now you are sexualizing a GRIEVING CHILD at her dad’s funeral.

    This is sick.

    I’m out.

  • Escoffier

    M, unless society has gone completely insane since I was 15 (a distinct possibility), people mostly “get” that 15 y/o boys are horndogs and will be obsessed with breasts. So, yeah, way more leeway. Though, when I was young, we talked about such things with one another but never within earshot of any adults.

    BTW, the discussion was not about commenting but noticing.

  • mr. wavevector

    This is a zero tolerance issue.

    Nonsense. You have no business telling men what they can look at. You do not set the tolerance level, zero or otherwise.

    Is she also a child?

    No

    • You have no business telling men what they can look at. You do not set the tolerance level, zero or otherwise.

      A civilized society sets the tolerance level. A male teacher could be fired for staring at 13 year old breasts.

      Can you say CREEPY?

  • Escoffier

    Susan, so here’s a real life situation for you, to show that either path is not without danger.

    A man developed a serious but inappropriate crush on a colleague. (No children involved, I hasten to add.) He decided simply to cut off contact beyond that which was professionally necessary. Avoided her for the most part and would not even look at her unless she addressed him with a direct question.

    I once overheard (not that she was particularly trying to be quiet) this woman complain about that man along the lines of “The jerk won’t even look at me.”

    • A man developed a serious but inappropriate crush on a colleague. (No children involved, I hasten to add.) He decided simply to cut off contact beyond that which was professionally necessary. Avoided her for the most part and would not even look at her unless she addressed him with a direct question.

      Then he is incapable of maintaining professional conduct, which means he can’t optimally perform his job. He better get his act together, or he’ll find that his career suffers.

      What he should do is treat her with complete professionalism.

      And that’s exactly how one should treat a 13 year old hired babysitter.

      And please don’t conflate incidents involving mature women and children.

  • Gin Martini

    You can’t lick a push-up bra. Too scratchy.

  • mr. wavevector

    mr wv, how do you feel about men sexualizing your daughter?

    If I had a daughter who had breasts, I would assume men would notice them. Because that’s what men do. Deal with it.

  • @ Esc,

    I get that, but what I’m wondering is these two groups of men, 15 yo and “adult” ones are both males expressing their sexual desires. One is sort of accepted, the other not so much. Maybe we consider the difference of age, and that one is more informed than the other. However, I’d supposed that the sexual damage that can result from it is the same, right?

    Anyway, you Americans are quick to throw convos on difficult topics in the garbage can. Mr WV, you’re all alone.

  • mr. wavevector

    A civilized society sets the tolerance level.

    And that tolerance level isn’t zero anywhere I know of, other than your imagination.

    I’m not going to put on the hair shirt and flagellate myself because sometimes, despite my efforts not to, I take a half second glance at the breasts of a girl.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Mireille,

    Mr WV, you’re all alone.

    I can assure you I have plenty of company. Most men I know will admit to the same – not to the likes of you all, with your fantasies of perfect professional desexualized men – but to other men who’ve struggled against the same impulses.

    • Most men I know will admit to the same – not to the likes of you all, with your fantasies of perfect professional desexualized men – but to other men who’ve struggled against the same impulses.

      1. Professional = desexualized, for both sexes. That’s reality.

      2. We are not talking about a professional relationship between two equals, we are talking about a man staring at the breasts of a girl less than a third his age.

      The relevant question is whether this harms the child. The answer is yes. The only way it could not harm her is if she is blissfully unaware of your prurient interest, but that doesn’t make the behavior right. Your job as a responsible adult is to do whatever is necessary to treat her as a girl with not the slightest acknowledgement of her budding sexuality. By refusing to do this, and calling it natural, you abuse your position of authority, and you make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

      I can assure you that a student who goes home and says, “I feel really uncomfortable in Mr. Wavevector’s class. I keep catching him staring at my breasts,” will kickstart a process that you do not want to experience. I’ve seen it happen – in my case it was a male math teacher “looking at” 9th grade boys a certain way. He was fired.

  • Mr WV,

    If you couldn’t tell I was willing to explore this issue for argument sake, well my english is definitely not that great. I don’t have fantasies of desexualised men (quite the contrary), I actually said that you were all alone because I decided not to comment further on the topic. Being a foreign, I have a different opinion on the matter that is not necessarily PC, and I can tell the massive opinion here was, “this is sick”.

    I’d say for my part that I have had “uncles” try and act on their male urges with me and it was gross and disappointing. That is my reaction on my end because they were family, ugly and old. It is not a comment on what men should feel or not, these are their own demons they need to battle.

  • Escoffier

    S, what is unprofessional here? He just avoided her. Not totally, he would interact when work required it, but avoided her otherwise. Interacting when and to the extent that work requires it, while doing nothing untoward, is the definition of “professional” as I understand it.

    • @Escoffier

      Sorry, I thought he avoided her even though his job required interacting with her. In that case I don’t see a problem – she may miss the friendly rapport – does she know he’s avoiding her because he has feelings for her? If so, then she’s just being an attention whore. She misses the validation.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Mireille,

    Sorry, I mixed up my responses to you and Susan. The desexualized men comment was directed at her.

    I’d say for my part that I have had “uncles” try and act on their male urges with me and it was gross and disappointing. That is my reaction on my end because they were family, ugly and old. It is not a comment on what men should feel or not, these are their own demons they need to battle.

    Yes, I understand and sympathize with that. That’s why I try not to give sexual attention to young girls. I have not been perfect in effort – I have admitted to looking when I should have looked away.

    I think rather than being an indictment of my behavior, the overheated responses here display the absurd and unrealistic expectations American women have about male sexual behavior.

    • I think rather than being an indictment of my behavior, the overheated responses here display the absurd and unrealistic expectations American women have about male sexual behavior.

      We don’t want it directed at our daughters by authority figures, married men, older men, relatives, etc. We feel the need to protect them. I wish someone had protected me. I don’t think you have any idea how a 13 year old experiences this kind of sexual interest.

  • Escoffier

    M, I am not sure I agree that looking = “expressing sexual desire.”

    I would disagree that the damage in both cases is the same. To my way of thinking, 13 is way too young for any girl to be involved in any sexual activity but doing so with a mature man twice or thrice her age would be far more damaging to her than with a 15 y/o. Lots of people survive the latter–hell, many people consider that “normal”–but the former leaves girls messed up for life, or a long time. Far worse, it seems to me.

    • To my way of thinking, 13 is way too young for any girl to be involved in any sexual activity but doing so with a mature man twice or thrice her age would be far more damaging to her than with a 15 y/o.

      The 13 year old girl actually wants sexual interest from a 15 year old boy. She may not like having her breasts stared at, but in general she does not mind being ogled by boys her own age. It’s not threatening, and she understands it to be age appropriate.

      Being ogled by an older male is frightening and alarming. It is also deeply shaming, as I mentioned previously. Girls know how inappropriate and wrong it is, and they feel responsible for having the breasts that attract such unwelcome and disturbing attention. I don’t see why men must look at every pair of breasts. It’s not like they’re in short supply. Is it natural for a father to steal glances at his daughter’s “nice rack?”

  • @ Esco,

    Agreed!

  • Jeremy

    Jackis: As the old saying goes, “be the change you wish to see.” Perhaps it would be more effective to show empathy to mr. wavevector?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Jackie,

    Now you are sexualizing a GRIEVING CHILD at her dad’s funeral.

    This is sick.

    Good job jumping to the worst case scenario, drama queen!

    She was 47.

  • Mireille, she was 32B before and is now a 32DD. It took approx. 3 months for the new boobs to “drop & fluff” to a stable point, but I think that 32DD is the final score, so to speak.

    In terms of her approach: my understanding is that she was going out with male colleagues to happy hour events after work (all attorneys). Over time, the men started to de-sexualize her and to speak comfortably as if she was just one of the guys, so she was privy to a series of “inside the locker room” workshops on male sexuality. Both married and unmarried men were involved.

    The men would openly talk about their attraction to various big-boobed hotties who were present at some of these after-work informal events. My friend realized that these women may have had 75% of her IQ, but it might not matter in the SMP because she would be visually passed over during this intensely primal, highly competitive, initial phase of courtship.

    She decided that she could change or she could try to force male sexuality to change, and she opted to fight fire with fire and become the proverbial big-boobed hottie. She did a lot of research and found one of the best docs in the country, and she has this new confidence about her that I personally find endearing. She goes for this sort of sexy librarian look with pencil skirts and tops that can be unbuttoned for a plunging cleavage effect, plus she often wears glasses. It’s a voluptuous pinup nerdgirl look, if that makes sense.

    So I think the boob job decision was directly related to the level of intense female intrasexual competition she was feeling. There were perhaps other ways to handle it, but she went with a brute-force approach that seems to be working well for her.

    Maybe she can join the site and add her own experiences.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “A civilized society sets the tolerance level. A male teacher could be fired for staring at 13 year old breasts.”

    I would say its a very natural reaction to look (though 13 may be too young) but 15-16 is almost a guarantee. Not doing it takes a very real conscious effort (typically reserved for when my wife is present).

    OTOH, staring is pretty easy not to do.

    I think there needs to be some space between creep who stares at young women and natural male response to fertile woman.

    Which is the problem. As a kid I was doing the second (natural) while being told it was the first (creep). Not healthy.

  • @Thras

    I have already quoted one study showing that large breasted women were preferred for both short AND long term relationships.

    I noted that was a small, online, self-selected survey in which over half the sample only spoke Farsi (?). Certainly interesting, but I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn from it.

    Could you comment on the National Institutes of Health research regarding breast size and SOI Jeremy linked to in #361? Thanks!

  • Mega, here is what I think we can practically infer from Jeremy’s linked study. Tell me if you find a whole in my flow…

    Take two men, one very Unrestricted and one very Restricted in orientation. Show them photos of two women:

    Woman #1: very high in fertility cues associated with attractiveness ratings from men

    Woman #2: moderate scores in those cues

    Ask each man to state which woman he thinks is “hotter”:

    Unrestricted Man: “Woman #1.”

    Restricted Man: “Woman #1.”

    Now ask each man which woman he would rather marry:

    Unrestricted Man: “LOL. Neither.”

    Restricted Man: “I need more information—can’t judge a book by its cover when it comes to such an important life decision.”

  • meant to say “hole in my flow.” oops

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I don’t know what the woman knew or did not know (or guessed) about the reason why the man withdrew. All I know is that it annoyed her and she blamed him.

    “Is it natural for a father to steal glances at his daughter’s ‘nice rack?'”

    Of course not but nature has quite helpfully “programmed” men to feel a strong aversion to such feelings. It has not done this in the case of non-family members.

    • Of course not but nature has quite helpfully “programmed” men to feel a strong aversion to such feelings.

      Unfortunately, that aversion is far from universal. 🙁

  • Emily

    At risk of sounding like Ramble: with the obesity rate being what it is, I don’t think there are many girls out there who are lacking in the breast department. IMO if you weigh the pain/cost/inconvenience vs. benefit, breast implants would only be worth it for a small percentage of women.

  • mr. wavevector

    Professional = desexualized, for both sexes. That’s reality.

    No, that’s an ideal, not reality. There is no off switch for sexuality.

    Your job as a responsible adult is to do whatever is necessary to treat her as a girl with not the slightest acknowledgement of her budding sexuality. By refusing to do this, and calling it natural, you abuse your position of authority, and you make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

    And that’s a total distortion of what I’m saying. I said I try my hardest not to look. Sometimes I fail. That’s a very different thing than refusing to try.

    I am not rationalizing creeping on pubescent girls. I’m admitting to human imperfection.

    • @Mr. WV

      I am not rationalizing creeping on pubescent girls. I’m admitting to human imperfection.

      OK. I’ll cease and desist. I really just wanted to make men aware, if they weren’t already, that we feel every glance. Every time your eyes alight on our bodies we burn with shame. We’re being yanked from childhood by development over which we have no control, and we feel like Little Red Riding Hood.

      Society shames older males for desiring young girls for good reason. Lolita doesn’t end well.

      Both sexes are hardwired to want some things that are not conducive to good relationships or a healthy society. Taboos exist for a good reason. There are occasions when any expression of sexuality, by either sex, is totally inappropriate.

  • J

    @wave

    You’re younger than Susan and I? I picture you our age.

    not @wave

    Female figures with large breasts and narrow hips were rated as most youthful, attractive, and desirable for casual and long-term romantic relationships.

    This surprises me. Everyone acts as though big breasts are a fertility clue, but there is not only no correlation between fertility and breast size much less a correlation between ability to breastfeed and breast size. I also notice that while WHR is widely studied, there are no waist to boob ratio studies.

    OTOH, I am the first busty broad in DH’s life. He tended towards the tall, hippy B cup blonde gals before he met me. His BFF actually mentioned to me that I looked nothing like my predecessors and was not DH’s type.

    I like to interpret this to mean that DH loves me for my soul. 😉

  • mr. wavevector

    Try hard – fail – try some more. Where did I just read about that?

    Oh yeah – right here.

    “Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.”

    Except when failing means looking at 13 year old tits. Then there’s “zero tolerance”!

    The funny thing is, my wife’s looking at those tits too. I know because she comments on them after. As a matter of fact, some of those eye tracking studies show that women look at other women’s breasts and hips as much as men do.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J,

    I’m a few years younger I think.

  • J

    @wave

    If I had a daughter who had breasts, I would assume men would notice them. Because that’s what men do. Deal with it.

    You would assume it, but I bet you wouldn’t like it much. I recall walking down the street with my dad as teenage girl. He often looked like we was ready to kill the first guy who ogled me. He was also a stickler for modest clothing because he was familiar with the natural male reaction to breasts. Hell, I’m even sure he ever got over being disgusted with the fact that DH and I had sex. A daughter’s body/sexuality is just not mental territory that most men want to enter into.

  • J

    But you’re still an old married guy, right? Bout 50?

  • A quick point to add local color: the HUS male commentary that is admitting to caveman boobs-ogling weakness is coming from males who represent the top 1-2% of educational achievement in the United States.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J

    But you’re still an old married guy, right? Bout 50?

    That’s me.

    You would assume it, but I bet you wouldn’t like it much.

    True. But like your dad, I wouldn’t be under a delusion that men can turn it off. That’s why he did his best to shield you from it until you were ready.

  • J

    That’s why he did his best to shield you from it until you were ready

    LOL. I don’t think I was ever ready enough for him. Once, in his dotage, while he lived with us, he barged in on DH and I, breaking the hook and eye. The next day, we installed a real lock.

    Right before he broke the hook and eye, he screamed, “What the hell are you doing to my daughter in there?” You’d have thought that if he was lucid enough to figure out that he should break down my door, he might already know the answer to that question.

  • Escoffier

    “Unfortunately, that aversion is far from universal”

    I think it is pretty close to universal. One does not read about a great many incest cases and, contra the cultural relativists, here is a taboo that transcends virtually every time, place and culture.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    OTOH, I am the first busty broad in DH’s life. He tended towards the tall, hippy B cup blonde gals before he met me. His BFF actually mentioned to me that I looked nothing like my predecessors and was not DH’s type.

    I like to interpret this to mean that DH loves me for my soul.

    Heh. I am also not a boob guy. I am much more a pretty face guy and skinny frame guy and everything else is just gravy.

    The GF is quite chesty, though.

    Of course, all the women on my mom’s side of the family are chesty, by which I mean my mother could possibly smother a battleship. Sister Dearest inherited Father’s Side, and I would think she is barely a B cup, though I don’t ask for obvious reasons….

  • J

    At my uncle’s funeral one of my cousins (daughter of the deceased) was displaying a surprising amount of cleavage for the occasion. I found it hard to keep my eyes off that too.

    I find that sort of thing really disturbing and inappropriate, and I’m female. Cleavage does not belong at any occasion where there are clergy present.

  • Anacaona

    I think it is important to note that STR and LTR-seeking characterizations are not fixed in place like character alignments in some real-world Dungeons & Dragons experiment. The football playing fraternity brother is not permanently fixed as a “chaotic evil/anticleric” while the poetry-reading STEM introvert is fixed as “lawful good/ paladin”. Men will obviously adjust their strategies according to incentives, opportunities, and threats.
    Do you see the environment changing anytime soon?
    I agree that people are flexible and respond to incentives but I don’t see this being a factor in the next decade or so. Most of the women asking for guidance need to think in the here and now. Hypothetically you could convince and unrestricted Alpha to change. Hypothetically you could built a wormhole too that could skip all the traffic jams. I’m taking my car for now and I would advice the same to anyone, YMMV.

    Ana, you know how there are some things you don’t like but you can think “This is not for me but I get why other people like it”; and then there are other things where you think “That is so awful I can’t understand why anyone likes it.” For me, this one is in the latter camp.
    Understandable.

    Maybe she can join the site and add her own experiences.
    I would love to see her perspective on this issue. Specially since she did this with an specific goal. I also think she might unrestricted most girls. I had the same experience than her with adding big buttocks to the equation and my answer was pretty much “Thank you they are looking at her and not me” I liked to be friends with hot girls among other reasons, because they served as Tanks. Taking all the attention while I silently evaluated the guys. Lots of jerks that I didn’t had to date to discover, saved lot of time and for the looks of it money, YMMV.

  • Gin Martini

    I must have ninja eyes. My good friend is a 36J, and she told me that she never noticed me glancing. She is not the sort of person that can ignored, and she is, uh, used to people stealing looks, staring, or usually tripping over and falling.

    On her admission, the only time she ever knew I looked was when she was, quite obviously, wearing a shirt with a boob-joke printed on it. So I asked about it, when she wore it to a party at my house. As in, “what does your shirt say?”

    The punch line was acutally written on the underside of the cups. I had get on the floor to read it. Everyone in the room laughed.

  • @ BB,

    Thanks for the report;

    One thing that strikes me in all this is the “one of the boys” attitude that might be problematic here. If you hang out too much with men so much so that they feel free to comment on other women’s looks in such details in front of you, it is very probable that you have become a like a male orbiter at this point: quasi invisible. Guys probably don’t see her as a woman who might be hurt/shocked by these comments. Being one of the guys puts you automatically in the friendzone; so woman who adopt this strategy are bound to be disappointed in the end.
    I think it is important to bring the emphasis on your feminine presence but I’m not sure getting a boob job is the best recipe for that. Men have to acknowledge you for your feminine form but also your feminine spirit. It seems to me that woman is objectifying herself in order to get validation. I fear that by taking on male interests, she’s going to end right where she started.

  • Jonathan

    J:

    He was also a stickler for modest clothing because he was familiar with the natural male reaction to breasts.

    Girls mature younger today than in the past. Yet many western parents allow their teen-aged daughters to wear revealing clothes. Perhaps some of the old ways, with their emphasis on female modesty, still have merit.

    • Yet many western parents allow their teen-aged daughters to wear revealing clothes. Perhaps some of the old ways, with their emphasis on female modesty, still have merit.

      There was a period, when my daughter was in middle school, where we battled constantly. No jeans from Abercrombie, where the zippers are one inch long. No string bikini. No skirts that barely cover your pudenda. Every shopping outing ended abruptly with tears and recriminations. Those were two tough years, and it took everything I had.

      It’s not easy battling against popular culture.

  • BTW, I have never talked so much about boobs in my life and I own a pair of those.

  • JP

    ““Unfortunately, that aversion is far from universal”

    I think it is pretty close to universal. One does not read about a great many incest cases and, contra the cultural relativists, here is a taboo that transcends virtually every time, place and culture.”

    This only applies because you were the parent to the child and there is a specific emotional bond that seems to precluded incest.

    It does not apply if you gave the child up for adoption and then subsequently found said child 20 years later.

    “Psychologists say that taboo is normally in place when family members grow up in close proximity by virtue of reverse sexual imprinting, or the Westermarck effect, which desensitizes them to later sexual attraction. Researchers hypothesize it evolved so biological relatives would not inbreed.

    The phenomenon was first identified by Barbara Gonyo in the 1980s. She wrote a book, “I’m His Mother, But He’s Not My Son,” that recounted her personal story of reuniting and having sexual feelings for a son whom she had placed for adoption when she was 16. Gonyo fell in love — a byproduct of delayed bonding that would normally have taken place in infancy, had they not been separated by adoption.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/secrecy-adoption-fuel-genetic-sexual-attraction/story?id=16371998#.UZrKuLWG2Ng

    This is another strange fact that I keep in my collection of strange facts.

    • Re the taboo on incest:

      “The global prevalence of child sexual abuse has been estimated at 19.7% for females and 7.9% for males, according to a 2009 study published in Clinical Psychology Review that examined 65 studies from 22 countries.

      …Incest between a child or adolescent and a related adult has been identified as the most widespread form of child sexual abuse with a huge capacity for damage to a child.[11] One researcher stated that more than 70% of abusers are immediate family members or someone very close to the family. Another researcher stated that about 30% of all perpetrators of sexual abuse are related to their victim, 60% of the perpetrators are family acquaintances, like a neighbor, babysitter or friend and 10% of the perpetrators in child sexual abuse cases are strangers. A child sexual abuse offense where the perpetrator is related to the child, either by blood or marriage, is a form of incest described as intrafamilial child sexual abuse.
      The most-often reported form of incest is father–daughter and stepfather–daughter incest.

      …Prevalence of parental child sexual abuse is difficult to assess due to secrecy and privacy; some estimates state that 20 million Americans have been victimized by parental incest as children.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

  • Richard Aubrey

    It’s said that poor nutrition means the onset of puberty for women is delayed. If true, a well-fed girl of, say, fourteen would look like a young woman with a poor nutritional background of maybe sixteen.
    Numbers would vary.
    If you buy evpsych, then a man’s viewing of an early-developing thirteen year old would be like a million years of looking at a young woman maybe three years older. A sixteen-year old, with the bone structure of that age would not be physically contra indicated either as to intercourse or childbirth. Inappropriate but not, if you buy evpsych, without some rational background.
    But, good Lord, the differences at any age, starting maybe in the seventh grade. It’s not just that your varsity defensive line averages 280, while there are boys not yet raising a pimple only a year younger. The same disparity applies to girls.
    My father was considered a big, tough end when he played for UConn 39-42. A “buck eighty-five” as they say. He’d have to be really fast or really, really good to make varsity HS ball today. Wonder if we have a new situation in terms of maturity disparities.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Megaman:

    I have no ax to grind concerning these studies, but I don’t believe that we can reject research (or hold it to higher epistemological standards, which amounts to the same thing) simply because we dislike the results. In particular:

    1. The Singh and Young study showing a male preference for large breasted women for both short term and long-term relationships did NOT identify any Farsi speaking participants. You have confused it with another study which showed that breast implants were preferred to natural breasts. Participants in the Singh and Young study were drawn from the favorite pool used in many psychology experiments – American psychology undergraduates who receive credit for their participation. Moreover, these results have been replicated elsewhere – in fact, Singh and Young refer to other studies.

    2. The Doyle and Pazoohi study which showed that augmented breasts were preferred to natural ones contained English and Farsi speakers because it is a collaboration between an American and a native Iranian. There is no great mystery here, and the results hold for both English and Farsi speaking respondents. I would add, however, that the inclusion of Iranian respondents is a source of strength, not a weakness, for this paper. Far too many results in psychology are based upon experiments conducted exclusively among American psychology undergraduates. These results are assumed to have universal validity, but that is often not the case. This is now a hot issue in the discipline, especially after the publication of this paper:

    http://hci.ucsd.edu/102b/readings/WeirdestPeople.pdf

    3. If you want to criticize the Doyle and Pazhoohi study on the grounds that it contains a small and self-selected sample you have to be prepared to throw out a great many other studies as well. Their sample was actually bigger than that used by Singh and Young, or many other researchers whose work is frequently quoted. Doyle and Pazhoohi recognize the limitations inherent in a study restricted to a population that has access to the Internet. It is far from obvious, however, that this is a more serious limitation than a study restricted to American psychology undergraduate students. At the very least, if you want to argue that the limitation invalidates the study’s conclusions you need to make that case, not simply assume that it must be true.

    4. Bastiat Blogger has responded twice to the study that Jeremy cited. In particular, he pointed out that “unrestricted” men responded more positively to all female attraction cues, not just big boobs. I have nothing to add to his comments.

    5. While we are on the subject of data, can you provide some evidence in support of your claim that marketing and “media-driven focus on self-esteem” account for the fact that so many women undergo the invasive and radical surgery required for breast augmentation?

  • Jonathan

    Susan:

    It’s not easy battling against popular culture.

    No, it isn’t.

  • J

    Perhaps some of the old ways, with their emphasis on female modesty, still have merit.

    I’m still a modest dresser. I find people judge you by what you lead with. If you lead with your physicality, then people judge your T & A. If you lead with your personality, people judge that.

    I went to an afternoon wedding ceremony on this weekend in a fairly conservative setting. One female guest, the father of the bride’s live-in gf, a woman in her early 40s wore a sleeveless, bright orange mini-dress that was tight across the bust to the extent that it gapped at the armholes aloowing a view into her bodice. She also wore 4 inches heels, bright red lipstick and heavily caked on make-up. Her hair was bleached blonde. In the evening, she wore something similar in fire engine red for the reception that featured loads of cleavage. She got loads of male attention and Daddy got loads of validation, but everyone also laughed behind their backs. DH and I left early–game called on account of smarminess.

  • J

    Mr. HUSs birthday is tomorrow, and I’m going to go make Tiramisu for his cake.

    Happy B’day to Mr. HUS!!!!!

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT popular culture:
    When in a parenting class, I was asked how my parents had dealt with peer group pressure.
    “They didn’t think their kids had peers.”
    Somebody said that explained a good deal about Aubrey.
    Point was, there was no group of peers–or non-peers–whose judgment mattered more to me than my family’s judgment.
    When my kids were growing up and a contentious issue arose, I would, given that it was appropriate to the subject, say, “This family doesn’t do that.” Or does do that, or something in that vein. I think that, or that attitude, was sort of the way my parents thought of things.
    Asked a social worker I knew about it. She smiled and said, dismissively, “Oh, the old {something I missed thingy}” Which was apparently not quite quite in today’s modern and enlightened world.
    Worked. Our kids are doing great. Back when they were in high school, people finding I was their father exhibited what I considered an offensive level of surprise. But, anyway, it meant other people thought they were quality folks. Even despite Dad.

    • When my kids were growing up and a contentious issue arose, I would, given that it was appropriate to the subject, say, “This family doesn’t do that.” Or does do that, or something in that vein.

      We used those exact words while the kids were growing up. It often came down to a discussion about values. They hated that then, but of course they share those same values today.

  • @Thras

    I have no ax to grind concerning these studies, but I don’t believe that we can reject research (or hold it to higher epistemological standards, which amounts to the same thing) simply because we dislike the results.

    I have no axe to grind either, so let me make my position clear: small, non-probability sampling techniques cannot be used to infer from the sample to the general population. Large-scale, random sampling would accomplish that, which is no doubt difficult for these niche areas of study. That’s bedrock statistics 101; Sir Ronald Fisher would agree:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-probability_sampling

    That being said, I am not rejecting the findings of any of these studies. Apologies for missing the earlier link to Singh study, though it appears to also suffer from convenience sampling as you indicated (N = 101, all college men participating for course credit). For that matter, the NIH study on breast size and SOI appears to be a “recruited” sample (N = 128, all Polish men). The results of these studies should be considered within those limitations, no argument there.

    I have no problem with the premise that for men, bigger breasts are generally better. And for some % men (perhaps depending upon SOI), bigger artificial breasts are better. Again, no argument. As for research on media influence, I do have some sources:

    The influence of plastic surgery “reality TV” on cosmetic surgery patient expectations and decision making
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572581

    Though I can’t locate either complete study, these were referenced in a number of articles:

    1) Factors which influence the decision to undergo cosmetic breast augmentation surgery (Didie, Sarwer 2003) published in the Journal of Women’s Health; found that 70% of patients studied endorsed T.V. as a significant source of knowledge for the procedure.

    2) Physical Appearance and Society (Sarwer, Magee 2006) published in Psychological Aspects of Reconstructive and Cosmetic Plastic Surgery; found that self-esteem was a prominent reason driving patients to enhance body appearance, as the notion of social attractiveness exerts influence on those who do not believe they measure up to cultural standards of beauty.

    Also, in 2005 the AMA felt it necessary to inform it’s members on the ethical implications of participating in reality television programs:
    http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/code-medical-ethics/5045b.pdf
    Conclusion: The Council believes that when acting in any capacity that relies on their medical training and practice, physicians should be guided by the profession’s ethical obligations. To guide physicians’ participation in reality television medical entertainment and physicians’ response to the expectations patients may form from these programs, the Council proposes amendments to its Opinion on “Filming Patients in Health Care Settings.”

    Again, limited research and scope, but interesting nonetheless. If I stated previously that media/porn influence was the main reason for the popularity of breast enlargement, then I misspoke. But it’s hard to argue that influence has nothing to do with it. There are certainly a confluence of factors involved; for example, Susan’s cited the work of Jean Twenge on NPD. As measurable levels of narcissism have increased since 1970 (women at a faster rate than men), it would make sense that cosmetic surgery would go hand-in-hand with certain individuals seeking external validation.

    The only thing I’d quibble with is your suggestion (maybe?) that women with artificially enlarged breasts are seen as more desirable for casual and long-term romantic relationships. The former I can agree with, but not the latter. Here’s a very good article by some PhDs summarizes a lot of research that’s been done on the topic (references included at the end):

    http://www.nursingcenter.com/_PDF_.aspx?an=00006527-200901000-00013
    Note page 2 under demographic and descriptive characteristics:
    Although the mass media often stereotype the woman seeking breast augmentation as an unmarried, European-American woman in her early to mid 20s who pursues the procedure to facilitate the development of a romantic relationship, no typical patient seeking breast augmentation exists. Based on the region of the country, characteristics of a surgeon’s practice, and a variety of other variables, specific characteristics of women interested in cosmetic breast augmentation vary. Several studies suggest that although the average patient is European-American, in actuality, she is frequently in her late 20s or early 30s, married,
    and with children.

    Women who receive breast implants have been found to differ from women not seeking breast augmentation on a variety of psychosocial characteristics. Women with breast implants are more likely to report more lifetime sexual partners and a greater use of oral of contraceptives, be younger at the time of their first pregnancy, and have a history of terminated pregnancies. In addition, they are more frequent users of alcohol and tobacco and have a higher divorce rate. A number of women with breast implants have a below average body weight, leading to concern about the presence of eating disorders in some of these women.

    The “typical” woman who goes in for breast augmentation doesn’t seem to fit the profile of a desirable long-term partner, at least not for the average single restricted guy in his 20s and 30s.

  • @Megaman,

    What do you do for a living, if that is not indiscreet? Obviously something to do with research and stats; your ability to find all this literature for “the kick of it” is both scary and impressive.

  • @Mireille
    Actually, I work for a small, local credit union out here in the Bay Area, CA. Glamorous, huh? But I spend some free time researching interesting topics on my own. I’m over at Pew Research’s website at least once a week… 😯

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Megaman:

    Thanks, but I do not need a Statistics 101 lecture. Been there, done that a long time ago, both as an undergraduate and as a graduate student. What is more important, however, is that most professional social scientists, who write the papers that we discuss, do not need such a lecture either. The statistics errors we are likely to see in peer reviewed articles are far more subtle and difficult to eliminate.

    However, while large scale random sampling is acknowledged as the gold standard, it is also extremely expensive and difficult to conduct, unless the researcher is lucky enough to engage in data mining of information collected for some other purpose (by, for example, the government). Many of the studies published in psychology journals are based on small, non-random samples, often consisting of psychology students. If you think we should throw out all such studies, fine, but for many issues there will be little else to review. What we cannot do is accept some studies and reject others with the same basic design simply because we do not like the results.

    The studies that you quote on media influence fall a long, long way short of showing that women receive breast implants because the media made them do it. Yes, TV is “a significant source of knowledge for the procedure” but so it is for everything else. There is nothing to indicate that women would stop having breast implants if only people stopped making infomercials portraying the operation. As for the statement that “self-esteem was a prominent reason driving patients to enhance body appearance, as the notion of social attractiveness exerts influence on those who do not believe they measure up to cultural standards of beauty” no one would disagree with that. It seems to me that you dislike and disapprove of breast implants, and ignore the many studies showing that women with breast implants are happy with the results, as discussed here for instance:

    http://news.ufl.edu/2007/03/21/breast-augment/

    Finally, on the one hand you quote from a study stating that “no typical patient seeking breast augmentation exists” but immediately afterwards you claim that “The “typical” woman who goes in for breast augmentation doesn’t seem to fit the profile of a desirable long-term partner.” Those statements are inconsistent. In any event, even if the typical breast implant patient has characteristics that differ from those of women who do not receive implants, it does not follow either breast implants reduce a woman’s MMV (that is, that she would fare better in the marriage marketplace without them) or that most men conclude that on the whole women without implants are better bets for marriage. I don’t know of any evidence that supports either proposition – if you have it please share it with us.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Thrasymachus.
    WRT studies:
    Yes. Problem is, without the smaller ones, we’d have nothing solid to talk about. With the smaller ones, we have nothing solid to talk about, but at least we feel good doing it.
    My BA in psych is half a century old, more or less, and a few things have changed. Really. One being the realization that some nutcasery is an organic issue and should be addressed by the pharmacist rather than three to five years’ talk therapy.
    One thing has not changed: We rarely recognize ourselves in “studies”, and if we do, it’s as a member of a small, distinct group. Another is that uncertain people, not recognizing themselves in “studies” become even more uncertain.
    Lastly, any “study” including mainly people in the social sciences will include people who’ve had some experience with theory and practice of various ways of putting together the studies, if only a couple of lectures in an intro class, and people who, accurately or not, are considerably more interested in self-assessment than the norm, resulting in, inevitably, skewed and unrepresentative results. Unless you want to know what psych undergrads think about things (you don’t, generally).

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Obviously something to do with research and stats; your ability to find all this literature for “the kick of it” is both scary and impressive.

    One of the fun things about the internet is having more information than ever before.

    One of the dangerous things about the internet is having more disinformation than ever before.

    Does not necessarily take a degree in anything special or a special job to dive into the first, and having one doesn’t prevent you from diving into the latter 😉

  • @Thras

    The studies that you quote on media influence fall a long, long way short of showing that women receive breast implants because the media made them do it.

    I have not argued that the media “makes” women get breast implants in a vaccuum. Please do not put words in my mouth, sir, nor pigeonhole what I’ve said. I did state before that the media is a significant influence on the small subset of women who choose breast augmentation. But it’s not the only one, as I’ve already stated. I’m sure husbands/SOs/peers influence their decision, as well as how they feel about their own bodies.

    What would be helpful in determining how widespread this phenomenon is, and I’ve already asked you specifically for this information, is what % of the adult female population has ever had breast augmentation (and no subsequent reduction)? Still waiting on that one!

    On the one hand you quote from a study stating that “no typical patient seeking breast augmentation exists” but immediately afterwards you claim that the “typical” woman who goes in for breast augmentation doesn’t seem to fit the profile of a desirable long-term partner.

    Excuse me, I quoted at length from a comprehensive article and placed “typical” in quotes because, as the article clearly states, women who seek breast augmentation do not fall under a narrow set of labels. But they do tend to exhibit a range of arguably negative characteristics. Are you suggesting those characteristics (in the 2nd paragraph) are desirable in a long-term partner?

    For the record, I have no objection to women getting breast impants. I wouldn’t want my wife to go under the knife for something like that (I prefer her just the way she is). And I’m sure many women feel happier with themselves afterward having the procedure. But the reduction/removal rate is 22% (per #332). There’s research I came across that found that women who sought breast implants had higher risks of suicide and body dysmorphic disorder than women who didn’t. And up to 40% in one study were seeing a mental health professional before going in for the prodecure. Again, are these desirable qualities in a long-term mate?

    Look, I’ve made an effort to be diplomatic on this issue. It’s just ironic that you interpret that as “lecturing”, given that your communication style is positively authoritarian. And uncompromising. Always has been.

  • @Thras
    One last point — if the media doesn’t have a significant influence on this issue, why did the AMA find it necessary to remind it’s members (215,000 strong) almost 10 years ago to adhere to the highest ethical standards while appearing on or participating in television programs?

    From their original statement I linked to:
    Over the course of the last decade, a growing number of reality and dramatized television shows have featured physicians – actual or portrayed – and depicted medical procedures. A surge in televised plastic surgery competitions has raised new questions regarding the appropriate role of physicians vis-à-vis contestants who wish to undergo procedures, such as “complete makeovers.”

    If it wasn’t out of consideration for the viewing public, then what was it for?

  • Mega, I am not surprised that some percentage of women who have pathologically poor self-concept body images would elect to have breast augmentation, just as they might elect to color their hair different colors, go on radical diets, get tattoos/body adornments, get facial plastic surgery, or make any other type of dramatic change to personal appearance.

    The women in this case *really* don’t like how they look and are upset about it. Boob jobs, new clothes, losing weight, etc. offer the promise of changing how they look. I think we all agree that someone who suffers deep dislike for how she looks might reasonably be more prone to seek surgery or some other method to correct it. I can only hope that whatever they end up doing works for them, and I also hope for steady improvements in the technology of cosmetic surgery that would give them access to a wider range of safe, effective options at reasonable prices.

    I believe that there is an additional, more political problem with boob jobs. By directly appealing to male sexuality, the girl who seeks out large augmented breasts has in a sense openly declared that it is “every girl for herself” in the SMP, and has risked de-stabilizing whatever strategic detente exists among her female peer group (creating a new, unwanted competitive pressure). Should one of the girl’s married friends now have to keep an eye on her husband to make sure his gaze does not wander to the golden cleavage of fake boobs that seem to float, dreamlike, in that tank top?

    Perhaps even worse, the boob job-seeker has possibly discarded the 2nd Wave feminist tunic and the notion that “the personal is political”. Under this “Women of the World Unite!” framework, fake boobs violate the solidarity of the sisterhood in militantly demanding that the oppressive, hetero-normative, global-capital-accumulating corporate-patriarchy drops its policy of subjugating women via unrealistic images in Vogue and Playboy. Boobsgirl is guilty of undercutting the movement in order to seek personal gain (attention from men). She is in a sense a traitor and should be punished or marginalized.

    in other words, male sexuality should be re-wired so that men are attracted to traits that women—i.e., the committee of leading radical feminists, many of them lesbians, that exerts top-down control over the entire movement and punishes those who violate Union rules—decide should be attractive to men. It is a policed, collective bargaining approach to the SMP that is systematically violated when individual women elect to get boob jobs.

  • @BB
    Good points. I’ll defer to you on the political landscape. Though when I was single, I could spot “fake” women (in every sense of the word) a mile away out here in CA. They never encouraged me to compete for their attention. In fact, quite the opposite!

  • We sometimes disagree, Mega, but I admire your analytical mind, fluent and engaging writing style, and tireless persistence in tracking down interesting studies. I think it raises the bar for the whole board.

  • Mireille

    @BB,

    My personal opinion is that women who decide to cater to the basest male needs de facto opt out of the protection system put in place against the consequences of these needs. If a woman chooses to get whatever visible physical enhancement in order to gain an advantage over other females, she can’t come around and say men are pigs who only look at my breasts when she basically encouraged that attention. She will not find someone to help her fight the situation she created and participated in. It’s like shark diving on your period. Why would you do that?

    The thing is a lot of these women need very often some time to adjust their new image to their psychology. Learning to deal with the new attention, the positive and negative objectification resulting is already a difficult task for the regular woman.

  • Anacaona

    My personal opinion is that women who decide to cater to the basest male needs de facto opt out of the protection system put in place against the consequences of these needs.
    I actually don’t think most of them gets what is the good and the bad of being sexually appealing. If you are starving for sexual attention then probably getting double DD sounds like a good plan. Then the bitch shields start to built up and you are stuck between a rock and a hard place,YMMV.

  • J

    Boobsgirl is guilty of undercutting the movement in order to seek personal gain (attention from men). She is in a sense a traitor and should be punished or marginalized.

    Boobsgirl is like a scab at a union picket line. Her playing directly to male sexuality changes the marketplace in such a way that other women must also do so in order to compete. Her appearance is like holding up a sign that says, “I’m just a cunt, we all are, it’s OK to treat us as such.” Those of all who are “holding out for better working conditions,” she ourselves devalued by her selling herself short. Hence the hostility.

    Additionally, we are aware that men, while enjoying direct appeals to their sexuality, don’t respect women who make themselves available for that. There was a lot of dirty joking by men regarding the trophy gf at the wedding I spoke of. Most women don;t want to be the butt of that sort of joke, even the wome who elicit those comments will deny that men see them soley as objects.

  • Mireille

    My personal opinion is that women who decide to cater to the basest male needs de facto opt out of the protection system put in place against the consequences of these needs.

    That this phenomenon exists, reflects more on the faults of that “protection system” than the foibles of the “profiteering system.”

  • Mireille

    @Marellus,

    I don’t think so. Any protection you want to get requires your collaboration, it isn’t a given or free for all. This type of protection is well spread in all society, this is why we have insurance. You can’t keep setting your house on fire/throwing your car into ditches/drunk drive/smoking and not expect your premium to rise or be dropped. It is a good system that reckless profiteering is undermining. Other members behave and should suffer minimal to no damages because a margin is using moral hazard to their benefit.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Megaman:

    In post# 332 you stated the following:

    Yes, though I’m a fan of private enterprise, I have no love for the marketing profession. And though I can see rational for some % of breast surgeries (A-cup issues, asymmetry, reconstruction), the phenomenon by and large seems to be media-driven focus on self-esteem, or lack thereof. That also might explain the correlation found between cosmetic surgery, body dysmorphic disorder, and suicide risk (something to think about).

    If you want to argue that breast implants are a media driven phenomenon you need to provide better information or better arguments than those you have given to date. For my part, I did not respond to your demand for more statistics on breast implants because that had nothing to do with any of the points I made, and I have a limited amount of free time to indulge in this debate. If you want that information you are perfectly free to seek it yourself.

    Incidentally, given your acrimonious disagreements with a host of male posters on this site – Mike C, A Definite Beta Guy, Jimmy Hendricks, Lokland, VD, etc – you are the last person who should be complaining about anyone else’s style of communication. Is it just a coincidence that your style of debate seems to rub so many men the wrong way?

  • Richard Aubrey

    When my kids were growing up and a contentious issue arose, I would, given that it was appropriate to the subject, say, “This family doesn’t do that.” Or does do that, or something in that vein.

    We used those exact words while the kids were growing up. It often came down to a discussion about values. They hated that then, but of course they share those same values today.

    Susan,
    Long, sometimes discouraging haul. But the result is worth it. My point was, however, that we emphasized that the reference group was us, not your friends, however much we may have liked (some of) them.
    By mid-high school, my wife and I noticed something. “What’s so-and-so up to? Haven’t heard much.”
    Response was that he became a butthead or got into trouble or was hanging with wrong crowd and so our kids dumped so-and-so. I don’t think we ever had a single conversation about a kid who was a bad choice for a friend. Our kids took care of it first.

  • Mireille

    I don’t think so. Any protection you want to get requires your collaboration, it isn’t a given or free for all.

    And as one reads the words of Bastiat Blogger and Megaman, it seems that these women suffer from a poor self image.

    Why is that ?

    These women weren’t born this way; they were made this way … by other women … and the only solace they can find, is in the arms of men … and they’ll wreck themselves to get it.

    Sad really.

  • J, what types of insults were being thrown at the woman in the red dress? That if she dresses that way she must be a slut?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Bastiat
    Three possibilities:
    She didn’t have a clue.
    She wanted attention but didn’t know what kind of impression she’d make.
    She wanted to be taken for a slut/or a fantastic catch as a trophy SO

  • Mireille

    @Mar,

    I disagree that these women are victims. In fact I think a lot of people use bandaids instead of doing the ground work necessary to accept who they are and what they can reach. Having poor self esteem is not something other women push on others. Some women hate themselves because of sexual abuse or even psych abuse they received while younger. Parents who praise a girl’s looks too much are creating a monster of insecurities. When the compliments end, there has to be something wrong with her. The question is out to deal?
    Another thing is controlling your environment. Don’t hang out with ultra bimbos if you’re not one yourself or only if your ego is armored. Even the multitude of superficial interest can skew your vision as to the successof those bimbos, when in fact they are also struggling.
    I don’t think other women are victimizing some because all around there is this culture of hedonism that discourages deep thinking and is enabled by technological progress. Surgery used to something scary and rare with potentially lethal consequences, now it has become another consumer product. So these women with low self esteem are sad just like kids who don’t get X-boxes for Christmas are. Because it is out there, and everybody is getting one, not having big boobs looks like you’re straight up Quasimodo in the SMP. I disagree. Did they try improving on their personality, their gratitude for what they already have, their environment or the men they want? Probably not! Surgery requires much less efforts.
    To be fair some women do get surgery to feel like themselves more, not to cater to what over people want. They have less risks of suffering low self esteem.

  • pioneervalleywoman

    @BB:

    J, what types of insults were being thrown at the woman in the red dress? That if she dresses that way she must be a slut?

    Me: Without knowing how J will respond, for example, if no one said anything to her face. Thus, it is possible she might not have known.

    Some women would feel embarrassed if they knew how people saw them that way: tacky, no class, no idea how to present themselves well. Others might not, perhaps because they are proud of the attention, or if they are embarrassed, they might play it off in feelings of pride, or false bravado.

    I must admit I thought about that sort of thing just yesterday at our graduation–a major ceremony, singers from our undergraduate college choral group on stage singing the college song. One of the singers, a young woman was on the stage wearing a close fitting t-shirt tucked into a skin tight miniskirt that was about an inch below her butt. She was wearing 4″ heels. I was just struck at that–she was dressed like a young woman going for a night out the club but at a morning graduation ceremony (it ended at noon) where she was performing on stage for everyone to see her.

    On the other hand, the young woman who sang the national anthem was one of the graduates, wearing her cap and gown. She was on stage, but pulled a move that was if anything, classy and alluring. She took off her cap, settled her hair–shoulder-length, walked up to the microphone and began to sing in an incredible voice.

  • Mireille,

    Well said.

  • @BB

    We sometimes disagree, Mega, but I admire your analytical mind, fluent and engaging writing style, and tireless persistence in tracking down interesting studies. I think it raises the bar for the whole board.

    Thank you, sir. You strike me as a very reasonable guy, and it’s a pleasure to ruminate on your prose. I suspect Thras and I are speaking past each other, and at this point I really don’t care. The difference being: I’m perfectly willing to concede when circumstances have clearly become a chickenshit discussion topic.

    That and: the AMA statement to all it’s member doctors. Truly at the heart of the media influence question IMO. Totally unaddressed.

  • Is it just a coincidence that your style of debate seems to rub so many men the wrong way?

    Oh, the irony.

    Given that a couple of those wiseguys were the first to take shots at me personally, and were also *directly* responsible for harassing female regulars until they left this place (quoted on the record), I guess I just can’t seem to care…

  • Anacaona

    J, what types of insults were being thrown at the woman in the red dress? That if she dresses that way she must be a slut?
    I told you that using red makes you attractive to the opposite gender but also makes you more prone of intrasexual competition backlash. That is why is a dangerous trade off you might think a woman doesn’t need female friends if she is the ‘buddy you can fuck’ of the group. But as you remember your 10 friend that used to spent her nights reading along not having female friends makes harder for a woman to date and get married. The herd is necessary for everyone even the 10s, YMMV.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    I have to say that I am little taken aback at the anger in your comment.

    SayWhaat, I owe you an apology. I interpreted your words as expressing both superiority to men and entitlement to male support. But I was mistaken.

    On reflection I see that your words actually express the uncertainty and insecurity of your life and your efforts to boost yourself up and succeed. What I took as self centeredness was really your motivational speech to yourself. What I took as entitlement was an expression of your need for a good partner who can provide some of the security you lack.

    So by striking out against the feminist bogeywoman of my imagination, I have instead gone about “crushing the young woman’s spirit”, as another commentator put it. I regret that.

    The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion.

    There is room for improvement, I’ll give you that.

  • Ana, I am very intrigued by this “self-policing” aspect of the female SMP experience. It seems to me, based on what I have heard, that women will *generally* support the efforts of another woman to enhance her SMV, but these enhancements need to be selected from a list of feminist-approved items, and should be in accordance with the sociosexual regulatory framework and “collective bargaining agreement” of the larger female population.

    In other words, the ideal situation from the perspective of (some? most?) women would be a kind of overarching female cartel that enforced a high commitment price for sex via monopolistic sexual pricing in the SMP (full disclosure: I am very uneasy with the long-term results of monopolistic price-fixing from an economic perspective).

    So when a rogue female decides to say “fuck you, bitches” and do an end-run around the cartel and, say, get big, flashy fake boobs to make a direct appeal to high-speed, hardwired male fertility cues, she is seen as betraying her sisters in much the same way that non-unionized labor is a threat to dues-paying union card members. She is changing and intensifying the competitive dynamics of the marketplace in the same way that a woman who approaches men aggressively is changing things.

    If this girl chooses to violate union rules, she shouldn’t be surprised or complain if an unfortunate “accident” happens to her. She sort of has it coming.

    One of the reasons why this is interesting is because I am not sure if there is a direct equivalent in male SMP monitoring. If a friend of mine wanted to get a Lamborghini in order to get a girlfriend, I suppose that I would perhaps wonder beneath my breath if said car would necessarily attract the “right” type of girl for my friend (I couldn’t be hypocritical on this, though). But… I would readily agree that a hot supercar was an SMV enhancement device for a single man as it signals status and command of significant resources, and ultimately I would be very happy for him if he acquired a showy Lambo.

    What do you think?

  • Escoffier

    BB, I think there is a class element as well. I am trying to imagine the fury of her peers if a UMC woman got implants and I doubt my imagination can do it justice.

  • Anacaona

    it seems to me, based on what I have heard, that women will *generally* support the efforts of another woman to enhance her SMV, but these enhancements need to be selected from a list of feminist-approved items, and should be in accordance with the sociosexual regulatory framework and “collective bargaining agreement” of the larger female population.
    Why you assume is feminist? Is female approved and varies per culture. Feminists if anything support the unrestricted strategy. Remember virgin and marriage and relationship shaming. If it were for them all women would dress like slut walk everyday. Feminists want to compete with sex because they know is easier than compete with femininity and they can get access to men of higher SMP even if is for one night.

    One of the reasons why this is interesting is because I am not sure if there is a direct equivalent in male SMP monitoring. If a friend of mine wanted to get a Lamborghini in order to get a girlfriend, I suppose that I would perhaps wonder beneath my breath if said car would necessarily attract the “right” type of girl for my friend (I couldn’t be hypocritical on this, though). But… I would readily agree that a hot supercar was an SMV enhancement device for a single man as it signals status and command of significant resources, and ultimately I would be very happy for him if he acquired a showy Lambo.
    Yes there is a male equivalent. Remember all this discussions about men hating hipsters ? Even though many girls here found them sexually attractive men were very vocal about how disgusting they find them. A lamborghini to get the girls is male approved way to get sexually attractive. Becoming metrosexual is not. Why do you think a group of grown ass men spent so much time trolling Bieber and the Believers? He is getting lots of sexual attention from women for the “all the wrong reasons”. Same with the overtly sexual girl. Herd vs Pack policies, YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    Yes there is a male equivalent. Remember all this discussions about men hating hipsters ? Even though many girls here found them sexually attractive men were very vocal about how disgusting they find them. A lamborghini to get the girls is male approved way to get sexually attractive. Becoming metrosexual is not. Why do you think a group of grown ass men spent so much time trolling Bieber and the Believers? He is getting lots of sexual attention from women for the “all the wrong reasons”. Same with the overtly sexual girl. Herd vs Pack policies, YMMV.

    This is an excellent point Anacaona. I too remember many of the men here having a hard time with the idea that many women find “hipster” males attractive. I believe their exact words were that they “couldn’t respect it”.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Uhhh.

    Ana.

    The reason we shame hipsters, bad boys, Justin Bieber, and Metrosexuals, is because they don’t contribute anything to society.

    The reason we shame women who go after them is because they don’t contribute anything to society.

    We also are not fond of alpha men that despoil “good girls” and PUAs, I would believe, and the good girls who go after them.

    If Bill Gates spent $2 billion bulking out, getting bling, playing guitar, and in general becoming a uber-sexy beast, and went after the best woman in America, I don’t think we would hate him for ramping up the SMV.

    We would call that the American Dream!

  • Ana, re: feminists as self-proclaimed Union bosses. I guess that I am making a distinction between 2nd Wave feminism, which sees womankind as a militarized, monolithic “all for one, and one for all” quasi-Marxist revolutionary construct, and 3rd Wave feminism, which I believe supports a wide range of independent female choices and alternative lifestyles and includes the sex-positive slutwalkers and hook-up champions.

    I am clearly not a gender studies academic, but from the periphery I can see that there is a bit of a quarrel between these groups on campus today. 2nd Wavers are saying (perhaps uncharitably) that they did not storm the Bastille to give 21-year-old female undergrads the right to get boob jobs, get drunk and make out with other girls to excite and arouse a young male audience, and post narcissistic T&A shots of themselves on Facebook. 3rd Wavers seem to feel that this is an individual female choice and that the 2nd Wavers need to stop peering out from behind the drapes to see what the neighbor’s kids are doing in the hot tub at midnight.

    Generally speaking, the 3rd Wavers seem to align themselves more with libertarian political views and the 2nd Wavers with command-and-control-type left-wing politics.

    Re: hipsters. I think boob jobs exaggerate quintessentially feminine characteristics. The equivalent from a male perspective would probably be a guy who pumps iron to get a V-shaped hypermesomorphic superhero look. Hipsters seem to annoy many men because they don’t necessarily compete on the basis of traditional notions of masculinity.

    I can’t really argue this point effectively and credibly because I am a prostitute for bespoke clothes and handmade shoes. I probably cross the line into metro/dandy territory, and I doubt I am the only man at HUS who has these appetites.

    But guys don’t seem to understand the appeal of hipsters in part because they don’t seem to present exaggerate models of masculinity the way that big fake boobs do. Imagine if men were going for flat-chested, deep-voiced female bodybuilders with crew cuts. Wouldn’t women be befuddled?

    I think that publicists and stylists are aware of this and often try to toughen up a more androgynous hipster look by having the guy get inked and take on more of a “bad boy” role with drinking, drug and weapons-related arrests, public fights, etc. The moody, psychotically violent hipster-artiste seems to be a particular favorite, perhaps because he embodies tragic elements of the romantic hero.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sassy,
    Part of the problem is the contradiction(s). Alpha males. Overt masculinity. Take charge guy. Deep voice. Punch it up with stubble–dark variety–and a Harley plus smelly leather jeans. Tingles to the max.
    Then…the Beeb.
    First problem. Something is dishonest. Either the first set of attractors is not the real thing but just something the women made up, or….they’re just something the women made up. Hm. Couldn’t think of a second possibility.
    Second problem. Be the Beeb and…smell that Harley exhaust disappearing in the direction of a cheap motel.
    Now, you can not bother listening to women. Or you can look at the metrosexuals and decide they disgust you so they must disgust any thinking human being…. Crap. Anybody want to go there?
    Key is to wander around looking for A Woman, not trying to finesse by assumed group characteristics, which are probably BS.

  • Sorry, meant to say that hipsters don’t exaggerate models of masculinity the way that big fake boobs exaggerate models of femininity. Hope my point was still clear.

  • Anacaona

    Re: hipsters. I think boob jobs exaggerate quintessentially feminine characteristics. The equivalent from a male perspective would probably be a guy who pumps iron to get a V-shaped hypermesomorphic superhero look. Hipsters seem to annoy many men because they don’t necessarily compete on the basis of traditional notions of masculinity.

    You need to remember that women have more complex attraction triggers a Hipster is a trade off in masculine looks over other desirable traits. And too much testosterone is related to aggressiveness, domestic violence and cheating.
    Women need to select for a man that can impregnate them but that also sticks around, raise the kids and don’t abuse them or kill them or cheat on you diverting resources. Hence androgynous > than masculine and straight for our particular monkey brains.
    This the equivalent of the man looking for a wife he can trade up a smaller chest for a woman that shows more loyalty traits or more femininity. This is also related to short term and long term thinking.

    But guys don’t seem to understand the appeal of hipsters in part because they don’t seem to present exaggerate models of masculinity the way that big fake boobs do. Imagine if men were going for flat-chested, deep-voiced female bodybuilders with crew cuts. Wouldn’t women be befuddled?
    There is porn for that, you know. 😛

  • Lol, yes, there is. 🙂

  • Sassy6519

    I think that “hipster” males are often so attractive to women because they display attraction cues that are not as often displayed.

    These would be:

    An authentic/interesting sense of fashion: (they separate themselves from mainstream preppy/business casual fashion, which makes them stand out. Too many men walk around looking like overgrown frat boys. It’s played out, and not that attractive. Hipster males, although their fashion can be outrageous sometimes, successfully perform visual peacocking. Their interesting physical appearances catch the attention of women effectively).

    Artistic prowess: (I’ve often found that most hipster males have at least one dominant avenue of artistic expression. They either sing, play an instrument in a band, paint, sculpt, draw, or participate in photography. I don’t think men understand just how powerful of an attraction cue artistry is to us. Check out the following article link to a relatively recent study. It touches on this)

    http://www.spring.org.uk/2013/05/the-incredible-dating-power-of-a-guitar-case.php

    Rebellious appearance/personality: (One big allure of the “badboy” is that he appears rebellious. He isn’t afraid of going against mainstream society. He seems dangerous, and it’s a turn-on. There is a reason why motorcycles are notorious chick magnets. It’s the same thing with tattoos, which hipsters seem to often have).

    Hipster males tend to have a preponderance of these traits. It doesn’t surprise me that this archetype of males is so successful with women.

  • Sassy, I’m like a playful German shepherd chasing you from thread to thread tonight. I posted in another thread that I would be very interested in reading more about these hipster cues and how they may manifest themselves in practical terms (wardrobe elements, etc.).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    I would suggest googling “hipster men” and “hipster man”, or use whatever search engine you prefer. Study those photos. Try to find out what the major differences are between mainstream/preppy fashion and hipster fashion. Try to also prepare yourself for the more outlandish looking fellows. I think that there is a way for hipster men to be tastefully styled. Here are some examples.

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb0sx7lFIp1r4vifxo1_500.jpg

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m678xuNNLY1rz9ptho1_500.jpg

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7px5i2LOC1rbm12oo1_500.jpg

    • @Sassy

      I love the pic of the hipster in the striped shirt. Soooooo sexy. He looks very French. There is something here to consider – hipsters and French men have a similar vibe.

      I think it has to do with emotions – wearing one’s heart on one’s sleeve.

      Admittedly, my notions of French men come from films. 😛

      • I just want to say I miss Tasmin. Usually when I feel this way, the person shows up. But it’s not working this time. So everyone please put out vibes to Tasmin.

        Also, Ex New Yorker must be a dad by now – his baby was due in early May. I cannot wait to hear about that!

  • Sassy6519
  • Sai

    Re: plastic surgery
    Do what you please, as long as it’s with a good doctor. Enjoy your hot new self!

    @Anacaona
    “make sure she will know that you are crazy enough to destroy her life as she dares to destroy yours and I think problem solved, B, C, or DD’s, YMMV.”

    +1

    @mr. wavevector
    “And that’s a total distortion of what I’m saying. I said I try my hardest not to look. Sometimes I fail. That’s a very different thing than refusing to try.”

    You didn’t actually touch her or say anything X-rated to her, so I am not mad. I mean, there’s a difference between thinking of choking and actually choking the loud, drunken man at the mall.

    “As a matter of fact, some of those eye tracking studies show that women look at other women’s breasts and hips as much as men do.”


    …he’s right. I make a lot of observations to myself about everyone.
    “That kid is very cute.”
    “That kid is very aged-looking. Poor thing.”
    “His fingers are very long.”
    “She needs to drop 200 lbs.”
    “I wonder if that guy is Arab or Latino?” (I honestly can’t tell sometimes. Sorry.)
    “Her bra size must be 38DD.”
    “Mr. Nimoy’s lips are such a nice shade of pink.”
    …*flee*

  • Anacaona

    Disclaimer
    I don’t like Hipsters they try too hard, IMO, and they act like they know everything, but so Gym freaks. Nerds can be obnoxious know-it-all but at least they learn a lot of about what they are going to feel superior off. I don’t find arrogance attractive but if you had reached certain level of mastery in something at least makes sense. With Hipsters is five minutes of hearing Beethoven and they are they coolest kid on the block…blerg.
    I like a man that wears something because it means something to him (I love nerdy T-shirts and is a great conversational started for us nerdy lovers) in fashion sense I like a man that looks that he picked up the first clean thing he found in the closet. It means that he is single and not shallow, all good things in my book, YMMV as usual.

  • Mireille

    I think between hipsters and fake boobs, the question of authenticity remains. Both groups are posers, trying to portray the quintessence of something, femininity for some, enlightened self-consciousness. The problem is they are transparent because anybody can see they are trying too hard. Pathetic IMO, however, they do find their niche in the dating market. Though there comes a day , they are exposed for the frauds they are, when fake boobs start sagging and your collection of Apple devices contradict your “deep commitment to justice in the world”.

    The fact is none of all the enhancements are necessary to raise a child, it is purely for the entertainment of the other partner and his status hunger. Other than that…

  • Mireille

    If I’m not mistaken “hipster” has become a new special word like “Guetto”, neither regular people like to have associated with them.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sassy,

    I think your insights into hipsters is spot-on and accurate. And, most importantly, useful for men.

    Women appreciate a man who can talk the language of emotion and dress well. A lot of men can benefit from adding this to their repetoire, just as much as any other kind of game…hell emotional frame management IS the goddam game.

    Thinking these things are automatically feminine or unbecoming of men is a serious detriment to the male gender identity, IMO.

    Note that several Manosphere writers do support adding this back into the “manly” label, but want to add it as a “manly” endeavor. IE, don’t look at hipsters, look at Sinatra and Cary Grant. More manly than you ever will be, useless AFC keyboard jockie! NOW GO DRESS WELL!

    I am fortunately blessed with two best male friends that take fashion very seriously. Most people think, at my best, I dress better than my GF, actually.

    the important thing, though, is still having mastery and being able to do something. Otherwise you are a nice suit, and if that’s all you are, well, fuck you

  • Richard Aubrey

    Not many metrosexuals where I live.
    Visiting a couple of places where they can be encountered, one thing struck me. They give off a vibe that says, “If anything happens, anything bad, don’t look at me to help.”
    Not sure where that comes from. Differentiating themselves from traditional masculinity? Making sure that their self-presentation is as unthreatening as possible because what it takes to deal with a Bad Thing is frequently the ability to be a Bad Thing? Being helpless generates female nurturing?
    Traditional men consider they have a duty–as men–to be able to deal with the Bad Thing either for themselves or for others. To find someone purposely abandoning that role is more than annoying. To find women attracted is at least triply so.
    A friend of mine, forty-plus years ago after hearing about a situation I was in, related a similar situation happening to him.
    He prepared a maxim:
    When times are easy, the violin teachers get the girl.
    When times are tough, the big ugly guy gets the girl.
    When the big ugly guy fixes things up, the violin teacher gets the girl and the big ugly guy is standing around going, “Huh? I thought…? I mean, didn’t I…um…do something? Didn’t she say really nice things to me?”
    The metrosexual is the violin teacher and this is really, really annoying.
    ’cause, among other things, Taking Care of Business is difficult and dangerous.
    I dunno. Maybe the Ant and The Grasshopper could be fit in here.
    Or, if you like ev psych, you could figure that, if times are tough, the uterus tells the brain to find somebody who can take care of business and we’ll worry about table manners later. Later, table manners become important.
    Nothing personal. Just ev psych.

  • Sassy, thanks for those links, they are illuminating and very useful for discussion.

    I’m 6’1/190-200 (and, moreover, too long in the tooth and conventional) and can’t pull off any of those looks authentically, so I personally have to go more for more classic styles. There is some artistic license opportunity in terms of colorful pocket squares and the like, but the basic template is so-called “Hedge Fund Gigolo”—tailored jacket or blazer, antique/vintage-looking jeans, mirror-polished balmorals (particularly from a high-end outfitter like Lobb or Eduard Meier, but this really isn’t necessary because women really don’t seem to notice or care about the specifics), nice button down shirt with no tie (has to be unbuttoned enough to look rakish).

    If you want to go gangster with it, you can wear a vest, take the jacket off, and roll up your sleeves enough to reveal your forearm tattoos (doesn’t help me—I don’t have any ink despite 5 years in the Navy and 15 in MMA!). The black fedora is always an option.

    It is interesting how the lanky physiques with sweaters, skinny jeans, Chuck Taylors, and beanies with strategically-exposed- bedhead hair are appealing to some women. I guess it kind of screams “rebel” on some level, because the guy probably doesn’t have a traditional job.

    How do you other ladies feel on the hipster-look question…?

    • @Bastiat

      It is interesting how the lanky physiques with sweaters, skinny jeans, Chuck Taylors, and beanies with strategically-exposed- bedhead hair are appealing to some women. I guess it kind of screams “rebel” on some level, because the guy probably doesn’t have a traditional job.

      I think you’ve nailed it. Hipster = Rebel.

      He’s emotive, he’s creative, and he’s proud to be unemployed. It’s an alpha/beta combo that probably comes closer to what women want than most “types.” Even the most traditional women I know secretly long for hipster men. They work as investment bankers, but check Craigslist Missed Connections after seeing a cute hipster on the subway.

      Of course, it’s a fantasy. I’ve known women who have dated hipsters who turned out to be immature, fucked up, unmotivated knuckleheads. Then again, some wind up doing quite well for themselves. I have read in the NYXs that hipsters are leaving Brooklyn in droves for the burbs, and having kids whom they name Pearl, June and Mae.

  • Mireille

    @Richard

    You’re in point. I turned down 2 men who gave off that vibe. I sensed that if shit hit the fan, they’d be passive. In these situations, women have 2 options, finding another male to offer protection or learning how to deal with it themselves. Since I’m not the type to look for another male to deal with stuff, I’d probably do it myself; it will not last long. I’m not attracted to men who cannot protect me.

  • Sassy, I can understand the appeal of Guy #3/striped sweater, who is conventionally handsome IMHO,and to a lesser extent Guy #2/owl t-shirt and smirk. Guys #1 and #4 look like possible pedophile cases to me.

    • Guys #1 and #4 look like possible pedophile cases to me.

      LOL!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    It is interesting how the lanky physiques with sweaters, skinny jeans, Chuck Taylors, and beanies with strategically-exposed- bedhead hair are appealing to some women. I guess it kind of screams “rebel” on some level, because the guy probably doesn’t have a traditional job.

    I was thinking about this earlier.

    Because hipster fashion is so different from typical business casual/corporate fashion, their chances of gaining high financial status in such avenues is limited. It’s a part of the “rebel” edge that they have. They sacrifice financial/status gains in corporate culture, because of how they physically decorate themselves, but they gain points in peacocking and rebelliousness.

    If a hipster man is able to acquire wealth/status through more non-traditional avenues of business however (Ex: plays in a famous band, becomes a famous actor, becomes a famous painter, runs a trendy new start-up company, etc), then such a man often truly dominates the SMP.

    Johnny Depp comes to mind. He’s so artistic, brooding, emotional, yet successful. He also has a very artsy/hipster-esqe sense of fashion.

    http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32600000/Johnny-Depp-johnny-depp-32659258-3450-4149.jpg

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BONukElNjrk/TpC204ob13I/AAAAAAAAHWQ/tVcadiYd5Sw/s1600/johnny-depp-UK-Vanity-Fair-2011-Jan-johnny-depp-18182808-1149-1495.jpg

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XB23K4JF7os/UIa44tGmHvI/AAAAAAAAA74/PMbfPhJyjeE/s1600/johnny+depp+3.jpg

    In my opinion, he is so popular with women because he combines the best of both worlds. He has both high status/wealth (provides the attraction cues of dominance and provision) and a hearty rebellious/artistic streak.

  • Mireille

    The thing is French men don’t have to try so hard, it comes naturally. “I have a history with those used up jeans, t-shirt, boots, etc…, they are part of me so I don’t have to pay attention to them”. That’s how European think about stuff, how epic you are makes your clothes, not the other way around. Pb with hipsters is they consume all these artifacts from the past living off a borrowed authenticity. Get your own!

    Another thing is also that the French/European pass down lots of quality heirlooms to their kids. At least they used to when quality things were still made on the continent. I have friends who received antic Chanel/Dior purses from their grannies. Impossible to find outside a museum these days and priceless. That’s real authenticity: history and quality.

  • Anacaona

    Or, if you like ev psych, you could figure that, if times are tough, the uterus tells the brain to find somebody who can take care of business and we’ll worry about table manners later. Later, table manners become important.
    In life sometimes you have to fight, sometimes you have to run. Hipster run without thinking if he could fight, Big ugly fight without thinking on running. Both are not good bets in the long run. If they cannot tell when to do each or are prepared to do both.
    Of course this is an oversimplification I’m sure some Hipsters are brave as some Big ugly can be cowards and the other way around. But monkey brain is a judgmental bitch and at first impression this is what it reads IMO, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    The thing is French men don’t have to try so hard, it comes naturally. “I have a history with those used up jeans, t-shirt, boots, etc…, they are part of me so I don’t have to pay attention to them”. That’s how European think about stuff, how epic you are makes your clothes, not the other way around. Pb with hipsters is they consume all these artifacts from the past living off a borrowed authenticity. Get your own!
    Aren’t French kind of ugly though? Gerard Depardieu and Jean Reno are not handsome IMO and the handsome french guys are usually played by Latin Men :p

  • Sassy, I agree completely with your assessment of Johnny Depp’s appeal. A guy dressed like an Old West gunslinger-meets-Keith Richards who is seen driving, say, a Bentley Continental, is far more interesting-looking than is an obvious corporate executive driving the same car. The feeling is that the guy in the more creative outfit just doesn’t answer to anyone and can wear whatever the fuck he wants. Heavy, exposed tattoos—neck, face, arm sleeves, etc.—mean a guy who clearly doesn’t have to do business presentations.

    Of courses, chances are that the inked-up emo-artist guy who wears whatever the fuck he wants is going to ask the woman to buy him dinner and pay for the concert tickets, but who knows.

    That said, the look in question often doesn’t age well and I know a lot of women who do really like the suited-and-booted Mr. Big type with the Savile Row pinstripe, blood-red tie, etc.

  • Aren’t French kind of ugly though?

    My wife’s partial to this clown.

  • Sassy6519
  • Sassy6519

    He is Gaspard Ulliel, a french man.

    Yummy!

    • I am partial to this clown, oh la la. Melvil Poupaud:

      mp

  • Anacaona

    Heh I stand corrected it seems that we have a lot of handsome French guys that are not that famous.

  • Mireille

    http://www.puretrend.com/media/nicolas-bedos-dandy-parisien-par_m798405

    @Ana,

    That’s not true. Depardieu and Reno are just the international stars because they worked with well renowned anglophone directors or had big successes. There are so many young male actors who have mastered the preppy poet look. This one above is my favorite of the month. His father is a well known cynical comedian.

  • Mireille

    @ Megaman,

    Jean Dujardin should be president in France. He’d probably have all the mistresses he wants. He’s married to an actress; they used to play in 5mn clips about a couples life for 6 years and ended up together. He’s the epitome of manly and sensitive, with a touch of that douchebag cocky ness. He said acting gave him a lot of confidence in himself. He used to do stand up comedy fwiw.

    @Sassy,

    Ulliel has too much intensity. That kid is a bomb.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mireille

    Ulliel has too much intensity. That kid is a bomb.

    Is that a good or bad thing?

  • I OTOH am partial to this fine specimen (c. 1968). And rightly so.

  • Anacaona
  • Mireille

    @Sassy,

    Intensity is good in principle, but hard to manage in the practical sense. Life is mostly dull moments, the passionate can experience deep disappointment.

    @Megaman,

    Catherine said everyone has something tacky that they like and they should feel no shame liking it. She likes leopard print; I’m guessing her tacky thing became a fashion hit in the end. She’s a good friend of Depardieu.
    Btw, Depardieu changed citizenship recently when the French gov decided to raise taxes once more on the riches. Lol he’s Russian now and friends with Poutine. Very dramatic!

  • Mireille

    @Ana,

    Don’t be a nerd!

    Plus Champollion is probably the real hipster of the 3.

  • JhaneSez

    It is interesting how the lanky physiques with sweaters, skinny jeans, Chuck Taylors, and beanies with strategically-exposed- bedhead hair are appealing to some women. I guess it kind of screams “rebel” on some level, because the guy probably doesn’t have a traditional job.

    If a hipster man is able to acquire wealth/status through more non-traditional avenues of business however (Ex: plays in a famous band, becomes a famous actor, becomes a famous painter, runs a trendy new start-up company, etc), then such a man often truly dominates the SMP.

    All hipsters are not created equal…. they come in many flavors:

    The Alpha Hipster: all traditional trappings of an alpha on the inside, with a hipster appearance, appeals to girls who really don’t believe that John Mayer is an asshole in real life.

    The Slacker Hipster: he can’t afford to be a real hipster because he doesn’t have a job, his mother or girlfriend buys his clothes and his weed, he relies on either being overly emotionally deep or a bad boy facade, girls love him for his creative potential as a poet or musican.

    The Douche Hipster: basically a frat boy who dresses hipster to ONS with girls who read and should know better, dead give away they drink their PBR with Jagger

    The Socially Responsible Hipster: works for non-profits, and cares about lots of stuff, a babe magnet because he works in target rich environments but always has a girlfriend or a wife because he takes sustainability seriously.

    The Hipster Entrepreneur: often a uber geek at heart, total cocky beta, great income potential, he works in a startup, owns his own business, or invents things that make money, hard to catch because he also always has a girlfriend or is already married so get him early girls, for this guy being a dad is a fashion statement. ~JS

    • appeals to girls who really don’t believe that John Mayer is an asshole in real life.

      Haha, hard to imagine there are any of those left!

  • J

    J, what types of insults were being thrown at the woman in the red dress? That if she dresses that way she must be a slut.

    Trophy wife/golddigger stuff. She had access to his financial data when she first met him as she processed his info at her job. There was also a sense that he was showing this woman off.

  • J

    I OTOH am partial to this fine specimen (c. 1968). And rightly so.

    I used to do a very funny impression of her in Roman Polanski’s Repulsion.

  • Anacaona

    Don’t be a nerd!
    Is a dirty job but somebody has to do it :p

    Plus Champollion is probably the real hipster of the 3.
    His brother supported him all his life so he could pursue his dream. He totally was! 😛

  • J

    Part of the problem is the contradiction(s). Alpha males. Overt masculinity. Take charge guy. Deep voice. Punch it up with stubble–dark variety–and a Harley plus smelly leather jeans. Tingles to the max.
    Then…the Beeb.

    For adolescent girls, teen idols like the Beeb are training sex objects. They are cute, but not sexually threatening. A guy with chest hair and stubble who looks like he could easily have his way with you is scary until a woman is old enough to feel like “bring it on.”

    When I was 14, I loved any blond, puppyish cute guy they’d put on the covert of Tiger Beat. As a grown woman, I like ’em dark and furry–men, not boys.

    OTOH, there are grown women who love Justin Beiber. They are crazy.

    • For adolescent girls, teen idols like the Beeb are training sex objects…When I was 14, I loved any blond, puppyish cute guy they’d put on the covert of Tiger Beat.

      In my day, the heartthrobs were Davy Jones and David Cassidy. Comparing these tweenager boy crushes to the preferences of grown women is invalid.

      dj

      dc

      • What’s missing in the discussions of Bieber and other celebrity boy crushes is that their fans are 10-14, and that’s what girl children like. They don’t want a masculine, sexually mature male. That’s scary and gross. (From the adolescent female POV.)

        It’s not so hard to understand, really. By the time we’re adults, we want adult men. But when we’re still kids, we like the boys with the smooth faces.

  • J

    Champollion–Bearded and multi-lingual…..Throw in a moustache, and I’d be sold.

  • mr. wavevector

    OTOH, there are grown women who love Justin Beiber. They are crazy creepy.

    Women can be creeps too.

  • pioneervalleywoman

    JS: The Hipster Entrepreneur: often a uber geek at heart, total cocky beta, great income potential, he works in a startup, owns his own business, or invents things that make money, hard to catch because he also always has a girlfriend or is already married so get him early girls, for this guy being a dad is a fashion statement.

    Me: I found myself thinking about this categorization of hipster type when I read a news article about David Karp, the 26 year old founder of Tumblr, the company that was just bought out by Yahoo for $1 billion.

    Karp was a freshman at NYC’s prestigious Bronx High School of Science when he dropped out because he was bored; he wanted to home school and focus on programming. He never finished high school and never went to college:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/technology/david-karp-quit-school-to-get-serious-about-start-ups.html?pagewanted=all

    He “lives in a $1.6 million one-bedroom loft in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, with his girlfriend (a graduate student in NYU’s nursing program–they have been together four years) and dog.” The picture shows him, the girlfriend and dog on a motorcycle.

    It is so interesting how his story picks up on so many of our observations here…..

  • Escoffier

    I saw a hipster family on the train yesterday. Both parents looked under 30, the wife especially. They had three kids in tow and were expecting another. I didn’t know hipsters were such breeders. Kind of impressive, really.

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT the metrosexual’s “don’t depend on me” vibe, the vibe I get–not being a woman who’d be interested–is not that he’d bail on his GF, but that he’d bail on anybody.
    Bigugly don’t fight without thinking. Usually, they’ve done enough of it to have learned to think first. To riff on Wellington after Waterloo, the next saddest thing to a fight lost is a fight won. Point is, when it’s necessary, it’s necessary and you have the violin guy or the bigugly.
    Strangely, it almost seems as if the metrosexual is aggressively advertising this, as if it’s some kind of virtue.
    Not getting either the point in general or the attraction.
    Hence…regular guys can’t respect it.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Not hard to understand, really. Though we still may not like it because Justin Bieber looks like a talentless hack to us 😛

    Bringing it back to “cartel” behavior and “boob” jobs and the like, my vague impression is that the female-cartel is opposed to doing things to attract too much male attention, if it looks like pandering.

    The male-cartel is opposed to acting like a woman or not contributing anything. We hate hipster bassists because they are talentless hacks that act like women and don’t contribute anything.

    My impression is also that the male-cartel would try to clamp down on too much sappiness WITHIN the relationship, too, or “getting whipped.” Sets too high of a standard for other men? Maybe.

    I figure both cartels, to some extent, would set standards against mate-poaching and, to some extent, carousel hopping.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Richard puts it much better than I do

    Gentlemen, if we go to war tomorrow, would you trust Justin Bieber in a trench next to you?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Definite.
    We expect the Beeb to be making emotional statements about the immoral behavior of…us.

  • Richard, ADBG: Great points re: combat as a basis for masculine judgments. I guess we judge each other on this the way that women may judge each other on the red dress/boob jobs/heels type stuff.

    JS: I loved your taxonomy of hipster styles and archetypes.

    Susan: You have such a little crush on the French boys!

    Re: good combinations of alpha and hipstery traits. I saw the latest Gatsby film (I enjoyed it, personally) the other day and remembered reading the novel in a 9th grade English class. There is a scene where Gatsby is qualifying himself to Nick with his little autobiographical sketch:

    “I am the son of some wealthy people in the Middle West—all dead now. I was brought up in America but educated at Oxford, because all my ancestors have been educated there for many years. It is a family tradition.

    “…My family died and I came into a great deal of money.

    “After that I lived like a young rajah in all the capitals of Europe—Paris, Venice, Rome—collecting jewels, chiefly rubies, hunting big game, painting a little, things for myself only, and trying to forget something very sad that had happened to me long ago.

    “…Then came the war, old sport. It was a great relief, and I tried very hard to die, but I seemed to bear an enchanted life. I accepted a commission as first lieutenant when it began. In the Argonne Forest I took two machine gun detachments so far forward that there was a half mile gap on either side of us where the infantry couldn’t advance. We stayed there two days and two nights, and hundred and thirty men with sixteen Lewis guns, and when the infantry came up at last they found the insignia of three German divisions among the piles of dead. I was promoted to be a major, and every Allied government gave me a decoration—even Montenegro, little Montenegro down on the Adriatic Sea!”

  • J

    @Wave

    Women can be creeps too.

    LOL. Yeah, they can.

    Ever see the SNL skit where Tina Fey plays Justin Beiber’s teacher? Gross but hilarious!!!

  • Sai

    @Bastiat Blogger
    “How do you other ladies feel on the hipster-look question…?”

    I don’t know why not, but I don’t find it attractive at all. I guess it’s time for me to sit down and think of why not.
    I don’t get the French thing either.
    Or Bieber.

    “Catherine said everyone has something tacky that they like and they should feel no shame liking it. ”

    I do agree with this though.

  • This guy, “Shogun” Rua, was a model in Brazil and is also a terrifying professional MMA fighter. He’s soft-spoken and very pleasant when he’s not destroying people, a “lady’s choice” that I think most guys could understand.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHHgH1toIpA

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      Wow, Rua would never be my choice. Watching him fight and kick thoroughly repulsed me. I can’t imagine any woman finding that attractive, though I’m sure some must. I’d probably like him better wearing a swimsuit on a peaceful shoreline…

  • J

    My impression is also that the male-cartel would try to clamp down on too much sappiness WITHIN the relationship, too, or “getting whipped.” Sets too high of a standard for other men? Maybe.

    On a certain level being whipped is like being treated like a piece of ass. Both make it less worthwhile to be in a relationship. A whipped man pollutes the enviornment for men who have some dignity in the same way a slut pollutes the enviornment for women who have some dignity.

    When I see a man who is whipped, I vaccillate between wanting to shake him up and make him behave manfully and wanting to kick his ass myself.

  • J

    “As a matter of fact, some of those eye tracking studies show that women look at other women’s breasts and hips as much as men do.”

    Oh, good. Then I’m not gay.

    I’m just assessing and mentally forming catty remarks. 😉

  • J

    @SW

    I cosign your crush on Davy Jones–David Cassidy, no so much.

    I think it’s the eyes. Even as an adult, I love a scruffy, masculine face that retains those big brown eyes.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J,

    Oh, good. Then I’m not gay.

    I’m just assessing and mentally forming catty remarks.

    Exactly! We all sexually evaluate other people, of both sexes – both the gauge our prospects and size up the competition. Another eye tracking study showed that when men viewed a major league baseball player in his batting stance, they spent a fair amount of time looking at his crotch.

    And with all this talk of boobage, this study is relevant: Brain Sees Men as Whole, Women as Parts.

    Women are more likely to be picked apart by the brain and seen as parts rather than a whole, according to research published online June 29 in the European Journal of Social Psychology. Men, on the other hand, are processed as a whole rather than the sum of their parts.

    The results showed a clear schism between the images of men and women. When viewing female images, participants were better at recognizing individual parts than they were matching whole-body photographs to the originals. The opposite was true for male images: People were better at recognizing a guy as a whole than they were his individual parts.

    People were also better at discerning women’s individual body parts than they were at men’s individual body parts, further confirming the local processing, or objectification, that was happening.

    “It’s both men and women doing this to women,” Gervais said. “So don’t blame the men here.”

    The researchers have some stupid PC explanation blaming the media. I think it’s more likely we’re all attuned to the female body because of its primary role in reproduction and because the primary sexual advertising (i.e. T&A) is done by the female of our species, not the male.

  • J

    On wearing red to an ex-husband’s second marriage:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tara-ellison/his-next-wedding_b_3308335.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D316676

    It DOES send a message.

    @Wave

    Interesting link. I do actually recall staring at trophy gf’s boobs and assessing her CHARACTER based on how her dress fitted over them–which takes that study yet a step further. I recall thinking: “She’s about my size, and I can a dress that fits right. Why couldn’t she? This is intentional. WHORE!”

  • Anacaona

    Bigugly don’t fight without thinking. Usually, they’ve done enough of it to have learned to think first.
    My experience is that big ugly will see red at the smell of fight and charge first and only survive if he is bigger than the other one. Had you read the Classics? Gentlemen got into ugly fights just because of ‘honor’ or someone said the wrong thing and neither of the men can apologize and back of we used to lost a lot of young promising men including scientists in duels, big ugly means “trouble”, DO.NO.WANT, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    @Bastiat and the other “manly” guys.
    Except we don’t know if Bieber is a black belt and can kick ass when needed. The same way if the woman in red is a virgin and has a nice personality. Here is my favorite go to example of men keeping other men in line about ‘masculinity’ Rudolph Valentino, from Wiki:

    “In July 1926, the Chicago Tribune reported that a vending machine dispensing pink talcum powder had appeared in an upscale hotel washroom. An editorial that followed used the story to protest the feminization of American men, and blamed the talcum powder on Valentino and his films. The piece infuriated Valentino and he challenged the writer to a boxing match since dueling was illegal.[44] Neither challenge was answered.[45] Shortly afterward, Valentino met with journalist H.L. Mencken for advice on how best to deal with the incident. Mencken advised Valentino to “let the dreadful farce roll along to exhaustion”,[46] but Valentino insisted the editorial was “infamous.”[46] Mencken found Valentino to be likable and gentlemanly and wrote sympathetically of him in an article published in the Baltimore Sun a week after Valentino’s death:[47]

    It was not that trifling Chicago episode that was riding him; it was the whole grotesque futility of his life. Had he achieved, out of nothing, a vast and dizzy success? Then that success was hollow as well as vast—a colossal and preposterous nothing. Was he acclaimed by yelling multitudes? Then every time the multitudes yelled he felt himself blushing inside… The thing, at the start, must have only bewildered him, but in those last days, unless I am a worse psychologist than even the professors of psychology, it was revolting him. Worse, it was making him afraid… Here was a young man who was living daily the dream of millions of other men. Here was one who was catnip to women. Here was one who had wealth and fame. And here was one who was very unhappy.[48]

    After Valentino challenged the Tribune’s anonymous writer to a boxing match, the New York Evening Journal boxing writer, Frank O’Neill, volunteered to fight in his place. Valentino won the bout which took place on the roof of New York’s Ambassador Hotel.[49]

    Boxing heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey, who trained Valentino and other Hollywood notables of the era in boxing, said of him “He was the most virile and masculine of men. The women were like flies to a honeypot. He could never shake them off, anywhere he went. What a lovely, lucky guy.”[50]”
    American guys were wrong, but this will keep happening. Leo DiCaprio also started as hated but now that he looks rough and masculine most guys are okay with him and he has gained enough status to keep dating supermodels. Kid was smart. 😉

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    Monkey-brain.

    Monkey-brain sees Justin Bieber acting girly and possessing no talent, therefore monkey-brain does not like Justin Bieber.

    Be careful about rationalizing Monkey-Brain.

    It’s also an aside from what we are discussing. We aren’t saying that Men hate Justin Bieber and Hipsters BECAUSE they pander to women, in the same way that women might dislike women who get boob jobs.

    We dislike the Beebs and Hipsters because we do not want them on the beaches of Normandy, or any other “manly” endeavors, therefore they should not be getting the sexual super-star status.

  • Escoffier

    DiCaprio, whatever else one may say about him, has turned in some just outstanding performances. Aviator and Departed above all.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Anacoana.
    Funny you should mention the classics. Just finished helping a Nepali kid through the Odyssey with references to the Iliad.
    I said Achilles was a punk. Okay, had to define punk.
    He–using the Iliad as correct for the moment–was nearly invincible due to his mother’s bathing him in the Styx or whatever. When you don’t have to go defensive–parry, duck, etc.–you can go full offensive. So he won. Big f’in deal. Then, because he was insulted by the king, he sulked in his tent, lettting his buddies get killed.
    Eff him. An overmuscled, well-trained, preternaturally fast (being more realistic) adolescent. Odysseus was the only adult in the whole show.
    Barbara Tuchman in “A Distant Mirror” suggested that a lot of the otherwise inexplicable behavior we see in the old days–her book was about the thirteenth (“calamitous”) century was because kids died so fast in those days that parents didn’t invest much emotion in them until age five or so and what we see is stunted emotional development worked out on the military and political stage.
    In one of the last crusades, a French king, louis the something or other, was forced into a predictably catastrophic attack by implications from a couple of his underlings that he lacked personal courage.
    Thing about classics is they are old. That stuff isn’t happening now. Different society, different raising.
    You may be right about some nutcase buttheads.
    The biguglies are the protectors who have available the tools of physical conflict. They don’t go looking for a fight, but if one is necessary, they’re willing.
    In the meantime, you get to head for the hills from which you can condemn them. You win.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Oh, yeah. You’ll find the metrosexuals laughing next to you.
    That’s why regular guys are not all that fond of the breed–so to speak.

  • Anacaona

    We dislike the Beebs and Hipsters because we do not want them on the beaches of Normandy, or any other “manly” endeavors, therefore they should not be getting the sexual super-star status.
    The sexual superstatus is achieved by betraying the ‘men’s code’ same as the artificial DD.
    Is the same thing you don’t want Bieb in Normandy because he is a liability. We don’t want the artificial DD because she is a liability in the sexual camp, she can be using her appeal to try and steal other men women or divert resources. We all know that if two girls are drowning the hottest ones get dibs on the lifesaver.
    Hence why doing artificially gets all the hate. Is the same thing, women usually don’t fight in war but in love, YMMV.

    DiCaprio, whatever else one may say about him, has turned in some just outstanding performances. Aviator and Departed above all.
    Never saw him as a good actor for some reason I don’t connect with his performances. I still remember all the hate he got in Titanic and Romeo and Juliet for no other reason than all the girls listed him as their ideal man.

  • Anacaona

    Thing about classics is they are old. That stuff isn’t happening now. Different society, different raising.
    Not in DR sadly. I lost lots of big ugly friends fighting over the stupidest things. 🙁

  • Escoffier

    R&J is kind of a good movie if you can get past the silly setting.

    Titanic, well, let’s just say I understand why it was such a big hit.

  • Escoffier

    Oh, and I disagree that Achilles was a punk.

    Though, in a similar vein, it is not outlandish to suggest that Rome was founded by a street gang.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ana

    The sexual superstatus is achieved by betraying the ‘men’s code’ same as the artificial DD.
    Is the same thing you don’t want Bieb in Normandy because he is a liability. We don’t want the artificial DD because she is a liability in the sexual camp, she can be using her appeal to try and steal other men women or divert resources. We all know that if two girls are drowning the hottest ones get dibs on the lifesaver.
    Hence why doing artificially gets all the hate. Is the same thing, women usually don’t fight in war but in love, YMMV.

    The difference between fighting in war and love is important, IMO. That’s why I don’t see them as the same. one is a market cartel, the other is about not rewarding traits that do not serve the gender’s central mission.
    I might be wrong, so input from other people would be great.

    The difference:
    Justin bieber would get made fun of, even if no women existed in the entire world. He can’t help us at all.
    There might be subconcious thinking about sexual competition, because everything we do about is about creating babies, but this doesn’t directly, consciously, manifest as “he is stealing all the wimminz!”

    A woman who gets the boob job and panders to male interest seems to manifest conscious intra-sexual competition for men.

    So we look at Justin Bieber and think “little boy”
    J looks at a girl in a red dress and thinks “whore”

    Very different conscious thought processes

  • Anacaona

    @Richard
    Also I’m not sure is not the case here anymore. Visiting the Grand Canyon thew big ugly ones were jumping the protecting fences around some formations to get a ‘cool’ pic at the edge of the mountains and the profile of the average guy that dies in the canyon is no a hipster kid he wouldn’t dare to try and hike it in one day. Is the big testosterone full ones that try and die failing,YMMV.

  • Mireille

    Dicaprio circa Romeo and Juliet was my Bieber; looking feminine, innocent and passionate. Yeah, I was “gay” for him lol
    I dropped him for years, while he was transitioning to actual male I guess. He got back to his splendor with Gangs of New York.
    He got more muscles too, so that definitely helped him to appear more masculine; plus we know he’s officially a douchebag because he only dates models and actresses. He’s an alpha now.

    Can I say, I just saw him in Gatsby and he looked great, like the perfect accessory/companion for an Italian vacation.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    FTR, I am not saying that men CAN’T get jealous of other men for being succesful with women, and then rationalize it.

    I am just saying that, in the particular instance of Bieber and hipsters, we are annoyed more-so that they are little boys, additionally that they are still getting attention from women.

    Re: perfomances

    Dicaprio is great
    I do not like George Clooney and see him as a tool-bag, although I cannot evaluate his producing skills
    <3 Tom Hanks

  • Anacaona

    Justin bieber would get made fun of, even if no women existed in the entire world. He can’t help us at all.
    But he wouldn’t be hated if he was a little boy with no women interested on him. No man hates and Omega but pities him. George Clooney is stealing all the women but men approve of him, because he is manly. Is sexual competition at the heart of it.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Do you think the PUA parts of the Manosphere hate Beta men and mock the traits so much because they think Betas are very succesful with women, or because they think Betas are extremely whiny males that don’t even deserve the title of men?

    That’s what we think of hipsters and Justin Bieber.

    • Do you think the PUA parts of the Manosphere hate Beta men and mock the traits so much because they think Betas are very succesful with women, or because they think Betas are extremely whiny males that don’t even deserve the title of men?

      They hate betas because they are betas and they hate themselves. Simple self-loathing.

  • Anacaona

    plus we know he’s officially a douchebag because he only dates models and actresses. He’s an alpha now.
    Heh I had the same issue with my long time crush Luis Miguel. He still looks handsome and sort of in the middle (no to masculine no too feminine) and I was attracted to him because he had the “great loner” image. But the fact that at his age (43) he never married but cohabited with a known Mexican slut, had her give her two babies and them left her (even though he is a good father to his boys) places him in douchebag category. He is alone because he wants to he is not a loner but an emo, YMMV.

    <3 Tom Hanks
    Me too. 😀 I might even watch him play Langdon again if they make a movie of Inferno even though the book was meh.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Curses! Comment stuck in moderation? I’ll try again…might have been a buzz-word in there 😉

    So you’ve read the PUA websites a little bit, Ana, right? Do you think those men mock Betas and hate them because they think Betas are super succesful with women, or because they think Betas are snivelling little pathetic males that don’t even deserve the title of “man”?

    Not to mention fucking up what remains of civilization by allow feminism to run roughshod?

    That’s how we feel about Bieber and hipsters.

    Okay, let’s try it another way. You understand why women don’t like men who fail a shit-test, right? Men get similar reactions to that.

    We also get that reaction to Justin Bieber and hipsters.

  • Anacaona

    I am just saying that, in the particular instance of Bieber and hipsters, we are annoyed more-so that they are little boys, additionally that they are still getting attention from women.
    If they were ‘harmless little boys’ you would be trying to protect them or mentor them. You hate them because they are cheating at competing for women, Valentino all over again, YMMV.

  • I don’t know, Ana. It seems to me like the equivalent of the high school football hero, stereotypically portrayed as a square-jawed, muscled jock, is the head cheerleader, stereotypically portrayed as a nubile, ditzy blonde with big boobs.

    I would *speculate* that male intrasexual competition is somewhat modified by the concept that men ultimately value other men from the perspective that they hypothesize about hunting and going to war together in small, tightly knit bands of brothers.

    Thus the jock badass alpha may get laid a lot and present extreme SMP competition, but we still like him because he’d be great to have as a buddy during a hypothetical bloodbath scenario. I feel like women do not have this kind of scenario to serve as a pressure-relief valve, and thus there is no advantage to the woman in pedestalizing the DD-cups NFL cheerleader who plays the equivalent SMP role of the dominant alpha jock. My guess is that female intrasexual competition is, in its own way, deeper and more ruthlessly cutthroat than the male version.

  • Anacaona

    I would *speculate* that male intrasexual competition is somewhat modified by the concept that men ultimately value other men from the perspective that they hypothesize about hunting and going to war together in small, tightly knit bands of brothers.
    Could be but, still the hate for the ‘sneaky fuckers’ come from the fucking part not the sneaky. Again the level of hate boy bands, twilight heroes, teen heartthrobs get from men that ‘don’t look like them’…is way up high for being about hunting only. What possibly can make a group of grown group of men boo a guy in a public stadium or hack Twilight forums visited by 12 year old girls to insult them and post geriatric threesomes? It has to be competition for mates, men don’t get that upset even if their own guys fail at hunting for example, YMMV.

    Thus the jock badass alpha may get laid a lot and present extreme SMP competition, but we still like him because he’d be great to have as a buddy during a hypothetical bloodbath scenario. I feel like women do not have this kind of scenario to serve as a pressure-relief valve, and thus there is no advantage to the woman in pedestalizing the DD-cups NFL cheerleader who plays the equivalent SMP role of the dominant alpha jock. My guess is that female intrasexual competition is, in its own way, deeper and more ruthlessly cutthroat than the male version.
    Maybe the double DD with a too tiny waist cannot gather as much fruit or carry other women’s kids if needed? IME, the pretty ones tend to be really sickly and delicate and are pretty useless during their periods. I still think is the competition though, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t disagree with the fighting/hunting hypothesis, but another reason why *most* guys don’t like Bieber/boy bands, etc., is envy. Those guys get the girls the envious guys can’t get. It adds insult to injury that, in guy-world, these types are also seen as unmasculine. Hence in addition to envy there is the sense of injustice. It’s not just that you’re getting what I can’t, it’s that you don’t deserve it.

    • Those guys get the girls the envious guys can’t get. It adds insult to injury that, in guy-world, these types are also seen as unmasculine. Hence in addition to envy there is the sense of injustice. It’s not just that you’re getting what I can’t, it’s that you don’t deserve it.

      Crooners do better with women than fighters do. It has always been thus. Women are turned off by hypermasculinity. I felt viscerally repelled watching that MMA video, and one need only to look at the history of boxing to see that nearly all the fans are male.

      I suspect this is because the higher levels of testosterone is associated with violent behavior and low emotional intelligence.

      The Tom Brady prototype is anything but a brute – and his face is pretty, not particularly masculine despite the cleft chin and square jaw. He’s about as masculine as women are willing to go – most NFL players will be found physically repulsive by most women. (Though their status will obviously get them women anyway.)

  • Ana, I have seen and rather liked the Twilight films and I suppose that some guys are just jealous that Edward and Jacob are very good-looking. Edward is of course an immortal and inhumanly strong vampire who has long- struggled with demons of psychotic, frenzied bloodthirst—he has killed and consumed other human beings in the past. Jacob became a jacked-up jock archetype who seldom wore a shirt and rode a motorcycle.

    Thought experiment: Imagine that you could have changed the films so that those two guys were just supernatural road-trip buddies who had harems of women. In theory, men should hate these characters even more under this scenario because they would be out stealing other guys’ girlfriends and wives for pump-and-dumps. But, instead, a series of “Twilight Playboys Hit Vegas” films would probably become cult classics among men.

    Do you think that, deep down, many women feel that it is ultimately every female for herself in the SMP?

  • Anacaona

    Ana, I have seen and rather liked the Twilight films and I suppose that some guys are just jealous that Edward and Jacob are very good-looking. Edward is of course an immortal and inhumanly strong vampire who has long- struggled with demons of psychotic, frenzied bloodthirst—he has killed and consumed other human beings in the past. Jacob became a jacked-up jock archetype who seldom wore a shirt and rode a motorcycle.

    I bit of that a bit, a bit of the unattainable status that Edward has won the girl instead of more reachable, relatable (and manly) Jacob and a bit that is woman’s narrative. American men specially hate the ‘feelings as plot’ and feel bored to tears and then insulted if they don’t appreciate it.
    You are an exception and I would say my opinion of you just got a bit higher. Although, that will explain why you had so much success with women you get the ‘female feelings’ part. Sadly as with many men that ‘get it’ that doesn’t translate in monogamy but in Haremgamy. Cest la vie I guess.

    Thought experiment: Imagine that you could have changed the films so that those two guys were just supernatural road-trip buddies who had harems of women. In theory, men should hate these characters even more under this scenario because they would be out stealing other guys’ girlfriends and wives for pump-and-dumps. But, instead, a series of “Twilight Playboys Hit Vegas” films would probably become cult classics among men.
    I agree with this. I had a similar issues with guys that hate Superman. The fact that he could be banging a new woman every 5 seconds but is committed to Lois Lane bothers then a lot. Even Edward would be more kindly treated if he was an womanizer vampire instead of being so committed to one girl and being a virgin on top of that. I guess they betray they ideal that if they had this high status they would be using it to get as many women as possible instead of being whipped by one teenage girl.
    Also Twilight for men looks like this! 😀
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Yj1lisdHs

    Do you think that, deep down, many women feel that it is ultimately every female for herself in the SMP?
    I think so yes. Getting a man to commit is hard and then it means nothing because any woman that wants him can walk in and take him with no consequences by society. I do think this is combat dating and is going to get worst before it gets better. I already mentioned that in the worst parts of my country women are not unwilling to use violence for both mate poaching and mate guarding even to a point where throwing acid to a rival is considered the ultimate weapon for the more competitive kind. Hence why I advise against making poaching an acceptable strategy. You are going to regret it a lot. I mean there is always going to be one or two people that will do it, but the fact that there is some societal shaming will keep the numbers low as it should be. Once that becomes the norm you are in for an ugly ride, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    Those guys get the girls the envious guys can’t get. It adds insult to injury that, in guy-world, these types are also seen as unmasculine. Hence in addition to envy there is the sense of injustice. It’s not just that you’re getting what I can’t, it’s that you don’t deserve it.
    That probably applies to the woman in red with fake DD. She gets a lot of attention that the other girls might crave even if it doesn’t translate in commitment, and is fake in top of that.
    Mate competition is tough.

  • Mireille

    @BB,

    I think the difference comes from the fact that while men try and master their environment (using sometimes other men to do so), women want to master other people, esp. men.

    It is ok for men to collaborate because the fruits of a controlled environment can benefit several people with limited damage, however, controlling a man can only benefit one person ie the woman who achieves that. Therefore, it is counterproductive to collaborate too closely with other women who might be your competition.
    I have been in situations where another girl from my group went after a guy I clearly broadcasted as my interest; they dated for 3 months (ridic) but sure, it caused a schism in the group.

  • Escoffier

    Ana, but at least being in a boy band earns money! Fake boobs COST money!

  • Anacaona

    Ana, but at least being in a boy band earns money! Fake boobs COST money!
    The equivalent would be a guy getting the Bieber haircut and that starts dressing like One Direction. Both are trying to imitate the SMP winners both will invest money to achieve.

  • Escoffier

    Yeah, but–you tell me–would that work? Just having the look without the record deal? There’s no “substance.”

    Fake breasts, whatever else one may say about them, are at least substantial.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Achilles was a sullen adolescent taking advantage of divine protection. Makes him just as much a fighting man as, say, the knacker in a slaughterhouse.
    Hector is the Man in the case.
    As regards the Grand Canyon: Talked to a ranger there. Their rescues are of guys–the term didn’t arise but the description fits–who were metros without any sense. Or just people without any sense. Hike down and back with a Big Gulp for hydration…. People more experienced in the physical world, which includes biguglies, manage such things differently.
    I recall on a trip in Mexico looking down at one of those sinkholes with the odd name, where the Aztecs or the Toltecs or the whatevertecs drowned kids and sacrificed gold–so the story goes. I wanted pix and got well inside the fence looking down. Not testosterone. I’m not particularly afraid of heights–got through Jump School without bother–and so using that lack of fear isn’t boasting, showing off, being shoved into danger by hyperadrenalism. Just handy.
    Yeah, I guess I was referring to the culture of the modern Anglosphere. But the Classics are, 1, old, and, 2. fiction. Bronze Age mythology doesn’t apply. Even without the pantheon getting involved.
    Modern Anglospherians look at; the location of the Troad, prevailing winds, agricultural possibilities of Greece and the littoral of the Black Sea (you can’t farm scenery).
    IMO, the Greeks got tired of paying tolls, Homer took six hundred years of war stories and dressed them up.

  • Escoffier

    There’s quite a lot more to it than that, but I can see that you aren’t interested. Makes me wonder why you are teaching it to others, though. It’s fine not to care yourself, but mis-teaching it to others is a disservice to them and to the book.

    There’s a reason certain books are held in high esteem for centuries by the highest minds.

  • Escoffier

    BTW, your basic supposition is wrong. Homer never says word one about Achilles being invulnerable. The whole River Styx thing comes from a later tradition–like, a thousand years later. So, in Homer, his greatness as a warrior has nothing to do with any Superman-like invulnerability.

  • Anacaona

    As regards the Grand Canyon: Talked to a ranger there. Their rescues are of guys–the term didn’t arise but the description fits–who were metros without any sense. Or just people without any sense. Hike down and back with a Big Gulp for hydration…. People more experienced in the physical world, which includes biguglies, manage such things differently.
    I don’t know your ranger friend description but I do know that the kids that were jumping over the fences were above average in height with well defined arms and some of them took their shirts off to make the photo ‘cooler’ and they had well defined abs too. Furthermore there is a sign on the office that shows a pic of a handsome, squared jaded young man described as physically fit and calls it the typical victim of trying to Death March, that doesn’t sound hipster or metro to me, YMMV.

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    Any recommendations on versions translations for the Iliad/Odyssey?
    Both on the to do list.

  • Escoffier

    I prefer Lattimore for Iliad, T.E. Lawrence for Odyssey. Fitzgerald is also good.

    A great work in its own right is Chapman’s Homer but it is far from literal.

  • Anacaona

    Another angle I wanted to mention is that there might be an Uncanny Valley aspect that each gender recognize.
    Women with impossible measures (like Barbie doll and certain mannequins) for example might read ‘fake’ for a woman because in the natural world this never happens thus she probably won’t be be able to menstruate, breed and collaborate with the herd, so we might be wired to dislike it the same way we look at some 3D realistic animation and cringe because our brains recognize that it might look human but something is off in the face or the figure.
    While men look at this effeminate looking guys (or read about Romance Brooding Heroes) and have a similar visceral ‘fake’ reactions because in the natural world this males would had not survived the first hunting trip or the first fight with a rival clan or worst turn on them for profit.
    Of course my theory wouldn’t explain why the opposite gender that has more to lose for picking the wrong mate doesn’t recognize the fakeness.
    Thoughts?

  • Mireille

    @Ana,

    I find people are just opportunistic assholes, women and men. Some people are willing to team up with you temporarily and drop you when something better comes around. Like guys for example, guys who’ll sleep with all types of exotic women but will only marry one of their racial group, or women who do switch from alpha losers to beta winners when crunch time comes. Poor ethics all around or at least deep lack of self awareness

  • Ana, that’s a sophisticated analysis. So the Size 2 DD cup strikes other women as an unnatural, freakish specimen?

    Re: fighters and so on. My understanding is that the idealized male physical specimen from an ancestral woman’s perspective would be a guy built to dominate the two major male activities of prehistory: hunting and fighting.

    Hunting on foot involves long periods of overland trekking and there is some evidence that we were initially successful as predators because we could run animals into the ground—we are physiologically well-adapted to moving over long distances in high temperatures, while our prey would suffer heat exhaustion.

    In terms of hand-to-hand fighting, many experts believe that the single most dangerous weight class may be 185 pounds. The most elite, crowd-pleasing champs are often built for both strength and mobility (i.e., Roy Jones). I train the boxing component of my style with a world-class fighter and coach (from the Dominican, by the way) and he’s very much put together this way. He is built like and moves like a big cat—the muscle he has all seems to contribute to his ability to hit people, very hard, and then dance away or slip their punches like a ghost.

    I think that men tend to internalize from a young age that one of the worst things that can happen to us in terms of social status is to be unable to defend ourselves physically and to suffer a humiliating public asskicking. So our assumption is that if you are a crooner, romantic poet, hipster, etc. and you can fight, then ok. But if you can’t and you get put away by some punk with fast hands, it just looks terrible to men and women alike.

    My life guide is a book from the Italian Renaissance called “The Book of the Courtier.” The author, Castiglione, argues that the first quality of the perfect gentleman is the ability to duel, because without that foundation he can’t defend his own honor or that of anyone else.

  • Susan, what about an MMA Fighter/Crooner HYBRID???

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y4Gexn5ZIc

  • SayWhaat

    @ wave vector:

    I just wanted to say thanks for your apology. You’re probably the only guy here who has gone on the attack and actually apologized after, so I wanted to let you know that I appreciate it.

  • J

    J looks at a girl in a red dress and thinks “whore”

    Well, to be fair, it was a short, tight red dress on a woman who moved her kids into the home of a wealthy man who was involved in an acrimonious divorce at the time.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Well, to be fair, it was a short, tight red dress on a woman who moved her kids into the home of a wealthy man who was involved in an acrimonious divorce at the time.

    Lol, I’m not judging you. I’m saying you saw a woman and thought of it in terms of aggressive female posturing to get a man.

    Whereas we look at Justin Bieber and think “wuss.”

    I do not think the male hatred of Justin is symmetrical with hatred of boob-job girl.

    I will also add that Escof might be onto something that hating Justin might contain SOME envy, but that’s because he doesn’t “deserve” it. I don’t like people who scam others out of their money, whether they are street-scammers or Wall Street Execs. I probably get WAY more pissed at the Execs, cause those street scammers aren’t really doing damage and aren’t living large, but I do not feel hatred of Bill Gates.

  • Anacaona

    I will also add that Escof might be onto something that hating Justin might contain SOME envy, but that’s because he doesn’t “deserve” it. I don’t like people who scam others out of their money, whether they are street-scammers or Wall Street Execs. I probably get WAY more pissed at the Execs, cause those street scammers aren’t really doing damage and aren’t living large, but I do not feel hatred of Bill Gates.

    Would you hate a male friend that lied to a girl to get laid?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    No. I would dislike the action of lying to get a girl because lying to get a girl is morally wrong.

    Generally speaking.

    If he’s lying about going to Harvard, that hypergamous bitch is getting what she deserves for thinking Ivy League=all that 😉

    That’s not cartel pricing behavior, where I am trying to set a “price” of men to women and get angry at the scab-pickers.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ SayWhaat,

    I’m glad you came back to see it.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Just for grins, try Sutcliff’s Iliad and Odyssey. She does not translate. She tells the story.
    It’s supposedly young adult, but I didn’t find anything missing.

  • Anacaona

    No. I would dislike the action of lying to get a girl because lying to get a girl is morally wrong.

    Generally speaking.

    If he’s lying about going to Harvard, that hypergamous bitch is getting what she deserves for thinking Ivy League=all that 😉

    That’s not cartel pricing behavior, where I am trying to set a “price” of men to women and get angry at the scab-pickers.
    It is the male equivalent. Because your friend has earned the right to do whatever he wants that gets him punani. Bieber/Hipsters has not earned the right to have punani for your own personal/group idea of what a man that gets a lot of punani should do to deserve it.
    Is plain sexual competition. Bieber = not in my pack, ‘shouldn’t get punani, he wuss, looks like a lesbian”
    Lying male friend = in my pack “a man has to do what a man has to do to get laid”. Different offenses, same cartel.
    Funny thing is that either gender doesn’t listen to the other the red fake DD will get a lot of male attention regardless of what the women say and Bieber will be banging young hotties no matter what regular guys say. Is all fair after all 😉

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t see the pack being relevant here. The question is, why does the rule exist in the first place and how does it consciously manifest?

    I am picturing it as:

    Women Congress says you can do this and cannot do that to attract a man.

    Man Congress says you must do this and cannot do this to BE a man. “Woman” does not even factor into the discussion.

    Boob job girl is undercutting the price. Woman Congress hates her because she makes it harder for other women to get men.

    Justin is doing an end-around all of civilization. Man Congress hates him because he doesn’t offer anything to Man-Land and is still reaping benefits of Man-Land. That makes Justin baddddddddddddddd.

    Justin’s friends might give him an exception because he is part of THEIR pack, but that doesn’t change why the rule was set up.

  • Anacaona

    I don’t see the pack being relevant here.

    Yes it is. If your friend cheats to get laid and doesn’t gets you the same level of hate than Biever makes you feel then is not about the act being unfair is about who commits the act.

    Man Congress says you must do this and cannot do this to BE a man. “Woman” does not even factor into the discussion.

    The male rule says that you cannot be a man without getting women. Male rule. How many celibates or virgin men are admired no matter how manly they are? Masculinity most be rewarded with punani or else is not good enough. And this is something that we had seen here countless of time. The man that claims that doesn’t want to lower himself to game tricks to get women get shunned and treated as stupid. Even is standing his own ground is actually very manly. No punani= no manhood. Punani without being masculine = hate. Is competition. You hate him because he cheats and wins.

    Justin’s friends might give him an exception because he is part of THEIR pack, but that doesn’t change why the rule was set up.
    Justin and the Hipsters created their own pack. They have different rules. They probably despise the big and ugly guys as much as you do to them. The masculinity is not universal or in-malleable it depends on many factors. Hipster pack is getting all the chicks while the other guys are not. Competition most be crushed.

  • Escoffier

    “Would you hate a male friend that lied to a girl to get laid?”

    Interesting question.

    “Hate” is too strong in my case. But I can think of a couple of instances where friends of mine–no super close, but friends–behaved in ways that I thought dishonorable. I did not hate them, necessarily, but I did conclude that I didn’t want to hang around them any more. So I just stopped calling them or meeting up. What happened to them I have no idea.

    • But I can think of a couple of instances where friends of mine–no super close, but friends–behaved in ways that I thought dishonorable. I did not hate them, necessarily, but I did conclude that I didn’t want to hang around them any more.

      This is very admirable, and also unusual.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t think of it as all that admirable. Friendship is based on commonalilty and I just concluded that there wasn’t enough commonality left to sustain a friendship. Plus, I no longer enjoyed being around them.

    However, I can think of a couple of honest players who I never had the same problem with. But also not that much commonality either. Kind of drifted away from them too.

    • @Escoffier

      So their dishonorable behavior did not repel you from a moral standpoint? It just made you feel like you had less in common? There was no judgment?

  • Escoffier

    No expressed judgement, make of that what you will. I came to my own conclusions but saw no point in airing them.

    • I came to my own conclusions but saw no point in airing them.

      I’m with you there. In those situations, I generally stop initiating and let people drift away.

  • Ana, I don’t hate Bieber. He actually seems harmless to me. I can understand why the TigerBeat crowd loves him; I took a friend’s two little girls to see his film (in 3-D, no less) and did feel like I should have brought earplugs, though, because the screaming ran for almost 90 minutes straight.

    I remember also feeling that Ricky Martin and some of the N’Sync guys were harmless, and it turned out that they really were homosexuals, anyway. The extreme hipsters wearing hoodies, Hello Kitty messenger bags, capri-length ultraskinny jeans, colorful berets, etc. also strike me as fundamentally harmless. Not in the sense that women don’t choose them—clearly some prefer this more casual and androgynous look to, say, a traditional ensemble from Savile Row or a tailored military dress uniform. I readily concede that the hipsters may really crush it with the ladies, but I’m just not worried about them physically hurting me and feel that they sort of occupy a different, non-overlapping SMP niche.

    Men may be confused by hipsters because we men tend to have, with some variations here and there, strikingly convergent ideas of what a really, really hot female looks like. Our attraction cues are virtually all visual and quickly confirmed—the famous test had guys choose between the hot cheerleader type in the Burger King uniform and the plain female executive in the expensive pantsuit, and guys chose the Burger King option every time. Japanese men asked to choose the most attractive women from a sample of Swedes will overwhelming choose the same models that Swedish men, Mexican men, and Nigerian men choose. Men have more of a standardized template or suite of attraction triggers.

    So perhaps we get confused when Woman A says she loves looking at Marines in their dress blues, Woman B says that she loves hipsters in capris and glasses, and Woman C says that she has seen “Magic Mike” eleven times.

    I suppose that hipsters really are competing on the basis of fashion and accessories more than anything else, so perhaps the equivalent would be a woman who wears the sexy red dresses to deliberately steal the spotlight, Louboutin heels, perhaps an Hermes Kelly, etc. and is always seen strutting around posh high streets with 3-4 bags from expensive boutiques on her arm.

    Perhaps the big fake boobs would be like the buff guy who hits the weights really hard and then finds every excuse to be shirtless (Matthew McConaughey, Taylor Lautner). Because the Adonis jocks are competing on physicality, I don’t think guys necessarily find that type to be as offensive as women find the boobsgirl—we are conditioned to expect the handsome jock to be a ladies’ man.

    • @BB

      I suppose that hipsters really are competing on the basis of fashion and accessories more than anything else

      I don’t think this is right – hipster is a style that signals “creative class.” Many women are very attracted to creative types, and the hipster uniform is just that – a way of advertising.

      As mentioned earlier, there’s also a streak of rebel in the hipster. He’d rather die than work long hours on Wall St., and he doesn’t work primarily for money. He goes his own way, he’s independent. He’s the hippie who says to Don Draper, “I don’t wanna be you.” Hipster is a variation on the bad boy or brooding loner archetype.

      There are so many colleges and art schools in Boston (one very near my home) that I see hipsters every day. They count as many high SMV guys among their number as any group. In fact, they probably have an outsized share of the medium T/high E guys that women find most attractive.

  • Anacaona

    “Hate” is too strong in my case. But I can think of a couple of instances where friends of mine–no super close, but friends–behaved in ways that I thought dishonorable. I did not hate them, necessarily, but I did conclude that I didn’t want to hang around them any more. So I just stopped calling them or meeting up. What happened to them I have no idea.
    I’m mostly trying to show the different standard between what the Average Joe feels about Hipsters that get laid by cheating the ‘manhood code’ and pals the get laid by cheating ‘whatever other code rules in society’.
    If there was not about competition but fairness then whatever you feel for a Hipster should be the same you feel for any male that engages in dishonest behavior.
    So if you feel the same level of lack commonality for both: Friend and Hipsters then I could say that in your case is not mate competition coloring your views. If not then is not different than a woman that despise the girl that gets risque wardrobe and fake boobs to compete for male attention breaking the rules all of the other ladies are following, YMMV.

    I will add that this is the way a man that really considers cheating off limits behave his cheating friends no longer hold the same level of loyalty. The men that keeps friends with cheaters IME at least. Are in it because deep down the approve of their friends behavior and anticipate one day needing some cover up in case they suffer an ‘accident’. Is very rare that people bond deeply with other people that don’t share core values. This apply to women too. If your girlfriend is hanging with cheaters unless she is trying to slowly cut the friendship (and not glacial slow more like starting to cut contact slowly to avoid drama) she approves of cheating and most be next her immediately, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    No, I don’t see it this way at all.

    The male judgment of hipsters (or any successful yet “undeserving” SMP winner) is not moral. It is, as I said and believe, based on a mixture of envy and contempt. No one is mad at him for breaking the rules. Men are not really “mad” at him at all. If we are mad at anyone, we are mad at the women who prefer the man we find contemptible to us.

    The man who lies to get laid may be a hero to some but quite a few other men will see it as not merely contemptible but also low and dishonorable. And, we may admire his other manly qualities (assuming he has any) independently of his behavior. We are not necessarily mad at him either.

    I don’t know that there is a precise analogue here between the sexes.

  • Anacaona

    I readily concede that the hipsters may really crush it with the ladies, but I’m just not worried about them physically hurting me and feel that they sort of occupy a different, non-overlapping SMP niche.
    I do think this extreme hate for effeminate men or effeminate things is in an spectrum. I don’t know what will make one guy be more offended than other though.

    I suppose that hipsters really are competing on the basis of fashion and accessories more than anything else, so perhaps the equivalent would be a woman who wears the sexy red dresses to deliberately steal the spotlight, Louboutin heels, perhaps an Hermes Kelly, etc. and is always seen strutting around posh high streets with 3-4 bags from expensive boutiques on her arm.
    Maybe is an unrestricted/restricted Alpha/ Beta thing? Like I said I particularly don’t hate on the barely dressed girl and very likely feel pity for her once the other women start to rip her off behind her back, but I’m always being a sucker for the outcast. Male and female.
    Now if she proved to be a bitch after I approached her I probably just excuse myself and leave her alone. I wouldn’t join on the bitching behind her back because I sincerely despise cattiness even if is justified and provoked, but I won’t be defending her either. Those are the moments when I find a third neutral group and hang out with them until the climate calm down.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Escoffier,

    “”Men are not really “mad” at him at all. If we are mad at anyone, we are mad at the women who prefer the man we find contemptible to us.””

    Precisely. I would add an additional annoying aspect (DYSWIDT?):
    Preferring this guy seems to contradict what other men–“we”–have been told is attractive and which “we” have been attempting to follow.
    IOW, they lied again. And they’re probably laughing at “we” when we are puzzled or brassed off.
    Pay no attention to what anybody tells you. Just wander around until you find someone. Meantime, live your best life your own self. No sense following somebody else’s advice to a blind alley.

    • Pay no attention to what anybody tells you. Just wander around until you find someone. Meantime, live your best life your own self. No sense following somebody else’s advice to a blind alley.

      Not bad advice.

  • Anacaona

    It is, as I said and believe, based on a mixture of envy and contempt.
    Female cattiness runs the gamut of envy, contempt and anger. It varies depending on the woman and the context. I really think is not more difference both are irrational and aimed to people that are competing for mates and winning to any extent, YMMV.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    I still am not seeing the analogy. Cheating and winning is not the same because the code is set up for a different reason. We are not setting up a cartel to say that we must charge women a certain price. We are setting up a cartel to say that you must contribute something to the group before you can be allowed access to women.

    Okay, let’s make a market analogy again.

    Women are a labor union system. The wage is $20/hour. Women are not allowed to charge below this, period. Any women who does is a scab who is ruining the wage for all women, vs. the company.
    Those are women rules.

    On the flip-side, if men are the businesses? Then men work on a credentialing, licensing, and co-opetition system. The businesses do NOT all get together and say “this is the wage, if anyone charges more, you are a class traitor.” That is NOT how the system works. Nor do we say “you are only allowed to earn so much proft.”
    To be a business, you must first prove your manhood and prove you are offering something to the business community as a whole. THEN you can hire workers, sell products, etc, and then you can make as much profit as possible.
    There is no price-fixing, there is no wage-fixing, there is none of that, you just have to get your license and then you can do whatever you want.

    Hipsters are like those businesses that aren’t paying taxes to keep up the road system and then feasting on the profits of it. They aren’t putting in anything to the man collective but are still getting something. It’s not about winners and losers per se, it’s that they don’t contribute anything.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    FTR, men can also dig the rebel/loner type, just a different kind of rebel/loner type.

    Like Tony Stark.

    Iron Man, however, is not a hipster.

  • Susan, yes, you are right. I should have said that the hipster signals his desirable traits (creativity, independence, access to an emotional inner world) via his wardrobe and accessories.

    I guess that I mean that if I asked female who they thought was hot, I would expect to hear something like this:

    14-Year-Old Girl: Justin Bieber, various Disney Channel and Nickelodeon heartthrob teens.

    26-Year-Old-Woman: Taylor Kitsch, Channing Tatum

    50-Year-Old-Woman: George Clooney, Antonio Banderas

    If I asked 14, 26, and 50-year old men for attractive women, they’d probably say the same ones!

    One of my good friends owns a bunch of art-chic boutique hotels and rock venues in NYC, was involved in the whole Studio 54 thing, has the wildly eccentric art collection, dated Naomi Campbell, etc. He follows the usual reactionary path of the reverse-snob: this supremely qualified older hipster goes anti-hipster “working man” to differentiate himself from the hated pop/faux-hipsters, who in turn have to dress like hipsters to differentiate themselves from the non-hipster cubicle drones. So he wears flannel work shirts with Carhartt jeans and Caterpillar boots and drives a pick-up truck.

    Wheels within wheels…

    • @BB

      No need to change horses after the age of 26 for women. We still love Taylor Kitsch, be still my beating heart. (Not a fan of Tatum, he seems dumb to me.) And Banderas is just gross! I think it’s childhood crushes and adult crushes. The former will be fellow pubescent males (or males who look that way), and the latter will be guys around 30 or younger.

      Is it really so different for men? Don’t teenage boys love Selena Gomez and Vanessa Hudgens? Are they really fapping to images of women nearly twice their age, e.g. VS models?

  • Escoffier

    Ana, I guess the differences are these.

    1) When a woman glams up, gets implants, dresses like a tramp, etc., she is–as you point out–breaking the cartel or the implicit contract. Men have no such implicit contract. Women have one because they are the more vulnerable sex and the gatekeepers of sex. What one or few of you do effects the outcomes for all the rest of you in a profound way. Men don’t have such a compact because we care far less about what other men are doing, As long as we get ours, cool, and other men’s behavior does not much affect whether we get ours.

    2) A woman tarting it up is essentially taking her sex appeal to 11. She’s not going against traditional notions of feminine sex appeal; rather she’s exaggerating that appeal in an arguably vulgar way. In other words, she’s going for what all of you have, only more so. It’s natural that lots of men will be attracted to that and every woman knows it. Men do not see emos/hipsters the same way. They are not dialing up their masculinity but compromising it or deflecting it or squashing it. Most men find this contemptible and bewildering. We find it irritating that women are attracted to that.

    • @Escoffier

      As long as we get ours, cool, and other men’s behavior does not much affect whether we get ours.

      That is not true! The rise of the player obviously hurts beta guys. You’re letting the meatheads take more than their fair share of chicks. You can’t control who women choose, but you can shame cad behavior just as easily as women can shame slutty behavior.

      They are not dialing up their masculinity but compromising it or deflecting it or squashing it.

      It’s well established that women don’t like very masculine men. Studies show that they prefer feminized male faces. Many of history’s great seducers have been dandies.

      You’re simply saying that you don’t like what women are attracted to.

  • Escoffier

    You know how catalogue companies have a way of finding you even if you have never bought anything from them? When I was in college, the VS catalogue really took off. It started to arrive at my GF’s apartment unbidden (perhaps she shopped there, though I don’t think so). I was quite mesmerized by it at the time. She figured this out quickly and throw them away the instant they arrived.

  • Susan, I can definitely see the Kitsch appeal. I could see him ultimately being the new Steve McQueen, and I don’t say that lightly because McQueen is a personal hero. Some guys I know from my former life worked with him on the set of one of his upcoming movies—nothing major, just providing some firearms and tactical type training to the actors—and said that he’s an awesome guy IRL and a really good boxer.

    Banderas is gross? Is it because of the Taliban beard (hard look to pull off, I grant you)? What about when he was younger?

    Re: teens fapping to older VS and Playboy models. Oh, yes. I think they are fapping themselves silly to those types.

    Escof, ADBG, Richard: brilliant articulations of male SMP policy. Bravo, gentlemen.

    • @BB

      A young woman I know visited the FNL set in Austin on her bday, courtesy of a friend who worked on it. She didn’t know Kitsch, but when he heard it was her bday, he sang happy birthday and gave her a kiss – she has the video! Beyond adorable, he’s clearly a sweetheart.

      Antonio Banderas always struck me as slimy, and again, not very bright. While I don’t think you’re right so much about the age thing, it’s very true that women are all over the map on what they find attractive. Whenever women get together and talk about which men are hot, it’s always a riot – some yelling EW! while others swoon.

  • Mireille

    The problem is hipster lifestyle has become a commodity too; you can get all your “uniforms” at Irban Outfitters, made cheaply by some authentic bangladeshis and sold very expensive here in the US. Most of so called hipsters just look the part. You have creative men of all path;

  • Escoffier

    “The rise of the player obviously hurts beta guys.”

    I think most men don’t see it this way. To the extent that we lay blame, we blame the girls. That may be delusional or at best only a part of the truth, but that does seem to be the way most men see it. In any case, there is nothing for men analagous to the female cartel.

    “You’re simply saying that you don’t like what women are attracted to.”

    No, what I am saying is that, for most men, there are two types of guys who are successful with women. Cat 1 are those we admire for “manly” reasons. Of them we tend to say “Good for him, cool guy, he deserves it.” Cat 2 are those we don’t respect because we consider them unmanly. Of them, we tend to say, “Stupid loser, how he gets all those chicks, I’ll never understand.”

    But, yes, as a general matter, to the extent that women are not attracted to us personally, most men do have a problem with what women are attracted to.

  • Escoffier

    BTW:

    “Many of history’s great seducers have been dandies.”

    Right, and the various “manly men” of the age–the warriors, barons, builders, leaders, etc.–have really despised those guys.

  • Susan, IME, conventional (read: Boys’ Own adventure-type hunter-killer-jock/alpha) cads are not shamed. To the contrary, they are celebrated and enjoyed by an enthusiastic chorus of other men.

    They can be relatively high-E and “pretty” so long as they are high-T as well. There may be some pressure on them to establish their T-ness by doing exaggeratedly masculine things, but they are certainly still allowed in the tree house.

    Re: the dandy/clothes-horse. Commander Bond provides a good example of the alpha-dandy synthesis at work in the field; he can dress very elegantly and be elaborately groomed because he’s also actively engaged in activities that we approve of. Definitely allowed in the tree house. In fact, he arguably rules it.

    • To the contrary, they are celebrated and enjoyed by an enthusiastic chorus of other men.

      Right, and I’m saying those men are providing the wrong incentives, from a self-interest POV. The equivalent would be women celebrating every slut who gets with a male 10 for a night.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    How is shaming the cad going to work? We are shaming the hipsters and you girls aren’t even blinking an eye.

    A conversation with a girl who keeps going after varsity athletes would end exactly the same way as our discussion with you about hipsters:

    They accentutate parts of masculinity that most other guys don’t have, we are all just jealous because we can’t get laid, man up and get some of those traits and then you’ll have a chance, here are some pictures of these lacrosse players aren’t they so hot!

    • How is shaming the cad going to work? We are shaming the hipsters and you girls aren’t even blinking an eye.

      No, no, the shame has to be intrasexual. There will be less to go around for beta guys the more guys who go rogue asshole, right? So make that socially undesirable. Refuse to socialize with cads. Few males would be willing to go without any male friends, right?

  • Travis

    “…but you can shame cad behavior just as easily as women can shame slutty behavior.”

    Sorry, Susan. Guys don’t work that way. If the player is getting laid, he really doesn’t give a damn whether less fortunate guys are shaming him or not. We don’t feel the need to be accepted by the male tribe as long as we’re getting attention from the female tribe. Hipsters are a perfect example. I think most of them realize that the majority of men look at them as weak and effeminate. But as long as they’re pulling hot chicks, they don’t really care.
    The only people who can change cad behavior are women. As long as they keep putting out for those guys, they’re going to keep going with what works. Regardless of what other men say.

    • Hipsters are a perfect example. I think most of them realize that the majority of men look at them as weak and effeminate. But as long as they’re pulling hot chicks, they don’t really care.

      Hipsters have tons of guy friends. They just don’t befriend the jock types. Every cad type I’ve ever known has had a team of guys eager to associate with him in hopes that his good luck will rub off on them by association. They all serve him in some way – telling girls how he really is a nice guy, really likes them, etc. This dynamic is very prevalent in frats. It doesn’t work though – no one wants a guy just because he’s friends with the real hot guy.

  • Susan, I guess many men are inclined to feel that this particular species of cad deserves to get away with it, and to use him to some extent as an aspirational blueprint rather than to see his behavior through a competitive SMP lens . Much of the masculine ethos involves risk-taking and enduring stress, fatigue, and pain, so the man who gets chicks through this approximate channel “deserves” to enjoy the fruits of his success.

    Speaking for myself, I have frequently felt that my natural enemies in the SMP were strategic, patient beta orbiters who promised regular episodes of “emotional support” to girls I was seeing. These are the classic wolves in sheep’s clothing guys who get friendzoned and then stick with it hoping for a crisis, a moment in which they can strike.

    When I would fuck up with a girl—it seems to be inevitable that I will eventually stumble—these orbiters are waiting in the shadows like trapdoor spiders, always vigilant and ready to pounce. They scuttle in with pre-prepared critiques of my behavior and my overall personality (contrasted with self-serving, goody-two-shoes value propositions about themselves, of course—“That guy is SUCH a dick. I would NEVER treat you like that. Who does his think he is?”).

    This is the type of social strategist who has historically caused me the most inconvenience in the SMP.

    • @BB

      Speaking for myself, I have frequently felt that my natural enemies in the SMP were strategic, patient beta orbiters who promised regular episodes of “emotional support” to girls I was seeing. These are the classic wolves in sheep’s clothing guys who get friendzoned and then stick with it hoping for a crisis, a moment in which they can strike.

      Ha, guys hate nice guys too!

      these orbiters are waiting in the shadows like trapdoor spiders, always vigilant and ready to pounce. They scuttle in with pre-prepared critiques of my behavior and my overall personality

      I love your writing style.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “It’s well established that women don’t like very masculine men”.

    Susan

    Except when they do, and the guys who have either dialed it back or not tried to dial it up are looking at the high-T jocks getting the girls, and going, WTF, fooled again. “Fool me once,” as they say, with the follow-on and the consequent change of behavior following the follow-on.

    Problem is, even if such studies are valid, we deal with individuals one at a time. Trying to play the numbers when it’s two out of three or some such means you have at least a one in three chance of screwing up added to all your other chances of screwing up. And since none of us live long enough to see a satisfactorily large sample group under controlled circs, we are all seeing what amounts to anecdotes associated with confirmation bias, which in turn depends on what we’ve been told or what we’ve concluded. And, naturally, some of those anecdotes amount to a flat contradiction–see the lax guys getting the sorority chicks lined up–if we’ve been told that considerate and non-threatening is the way to go.
    The inevitable conclusion is…somebody’s lying to us.
    My solution, had I known it was actually a solution, was to put myself in the company of women–or co-ed groups–and do whatever we were doing well enough, and let myself (shudder) be seen sans any attempts to approach. That was civic projects, employment, field projects, etc. That’s where the invisible-to-me IOI came from.
    I didn’t have to actually do anything, nor worry about advice. Not that I even knew that much.
    I did what I did and only figured it out about twenty years later.
    Conclusion, at least for me and decades later, was that trying wasn’t necessary and, to the extent I could recall trying, it usually didn’t work out well.
    So I did some things that I had to do–part time employment–and some things that interested me but were probably dull to others, and things that interested me and others, and in all of those were some women with whom I could establish a collegial relationship unpoisoned by clumsy attempts.
    Worked out in the end, and prevented me from trying to operate based on studies based on large numbers when dealing with small—1–numbers.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Cads are always going to get cad friends. We have some limited ability to shame guys WITHIN our social circles, and some much smaller ability to shame guys outside of the social circle, but it’s not something we are necessarily going to accomplish en masse.

    Besides, haven’t we decided that cads aren’t a big percentage of the population anyways? :p

    • Cads are always going to get cad friends. We have some limited ability to shame guys WITHIN our social circles, and some much smaller ability to shame guys outside of the social circle, but it’s not something we are necessarily going to accomplish en masse.

      I know; it really is the same as the slut shaming conundrum in some ways.

  • This is probably unnecessary, but a caution about hipsters: a few months back there was a discussion about a book on online dating and how it has changed the SMP. One of the stars of the piece was a bright slacker type—I think he went by “Jacob” and operated in the Pacific Northwest. This guy was allegedly pounding multiple hot girls and felt that his life of sexual indulgence was making it difficult for him to imagine long-term monogamy.

    IIRC, Jacob was roundly panned as a “loser” by the women at HUS. But put Jacob in the costume of turtleneck, kilt, and beanie, have him smoke Gauloises, get him some ink, and equip him with a mil-surplus canvas bag of Sartre and Dostoyevsky works to give top-cover intellectual justification for his slackerdom, and—voila—you have the makings of a hipster cad in his ideal hunting grounds, the coffee shops and spoken-word poetry salons of Seattle or Portland.

    • IIRC, Jacob was roundly panned as a “loser” by the women at HUS. But put Jacob in the costume of turtleneck, kilt, and beanie, have him smoke Gauloises, get him some ink, and equip him with a mil-surplus canvas bag of Sartre and Dostoyevsky works to give top-cover intellectual justification for his slackerdom, and—voila—you have the makings of a hipster cad in his ideal hunting grounds, the coffee shops and spoken-word poetry salons of Seattle or Portland.

      LOL, you’re so right! You are on fire today, BB. But please, kilt? I’m picturing some Scottish beatnik. Does not compute!

  • Anacaona

    @Escoffier
    Being an slut is unfeminine when the norm is being a prude. The same way now being a virgin is unfeminine. Is the same issue a woman that breaks the feminine rules doesn’t deserve the attention. A guy that breaks the male rules doesn’t deserve the punani. The hottie that spent money and time in trying to outdo her rivals is also no contributing to the harmony of the herd.
    In the same way males have their own idea of what a real man is (and I assure you Hipster do have their own manly codes) women have an idea of what being a woman in different stages of life is. Heck we have idea of how being a mother is hence mommy wars and is not even about stealing mates attention but properly raising kids.

    @BB
    Oh interesting I do had some friends that play the “emergency penis” strategy and they usually do it with girls that have very Alpha guys. I think some hypergamous women oscillate between both types. Getting with an Alpha then when she feels neglected she set herself to find a nice Beta guy, gets bored by the lack of Alpha, go back to her old ways. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
    If it makes you feel better I feel those women are my natural enemies too. Since they get disillusioned with their Alphas at some point or another they might decided that an already tested male like my husband is a good bet and since mate poaching is considered somehow valid in this culture I’m often very aware of what stage they are in their personal lives, just in case. Good thing hubby doesn’t have female friends 😉

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The rise of the player obviously hurts beta guys. You’re letting the meatheads take more than their fair share of chicks. You can’t control who women choose, but you can shame cad behavior just as easily as women can shame slutty behaviour.”

    Yes but indirectly it is rather useful.
    Sex positive feminism has basically made screening for character a non-requirement since women can show their opinions through how they act and dress.

    Sluts can be as obviously slutty as they want.

    Similarly, women who date hipsters are more than welcome to them.
    You yourself have said that hipsters were likely the guys who stayed back at camp while all the other guys went out hunting.

    They were the sneaky fuckers in times past.

    Let the women who want them have them because the fact that they like them makes it likely they would have them anyway regardless of who they were supposed to marry.

    Just my 2 cents.

    • Similarly, women who date hipsters are more than welcome to them.
      You yourself have said that hipsters were likely the guys who stayed back at camp while all the other guys went out hunting.

      They were the sneaky fuckers in times past.

      Haha, true! Cavemen hipsters. Yes, they were the men who women cuckolded their mates with! Now I can see why hipsters make the guys do a slow burn…

  • Anacaona

    How is shaming the cad going to work? We are shaming the hipsters and you girls aren’t even blinking an eye.
    Making fidelity and truthfulness when getting laid a masculine trait? That has worked before you know? A man that broke her marriage or her engagement for sexual immorality will lose societal support and lose business and friends. I mean even here men cheat less than in my country because there are consequences of their cheating in my country there is a cultural support that extends even to the guys that abandon their kids and let them starve in order to keep getting punani somewhere else. Is possible is just hard.

  • @Ana

    Making fidelity and truthfulness when getting laid a masculine trait?

    Such things already are. They’re collectively referred to as a code of conduct, which tends not to be affected by peer pressure, socially perverse incentives, or ethically relative arguments. And a significant number of men follow some variation of it. I suppose honor can be it’s own reward, even if success is not an immediate result.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Haha, true! Cavemen hipsters. Yes, they were the men who women cuckolded their mates with! Now I can see why hipsters make the guys do a slow burn…”

    Meh. Those men are being somewhat stupid. All they are losing out on is a woman cheating on them.

  • Escoffier

    Ana:

    1) I wasn’t using “feminine” in the same sense as you are here. So let’s just say sex appeal. Another difference between men and women is, men are much more uniform across the population in what they find appealing. Good girls and bad girls can have exactly the same attributes that men find appealing. The difference would be, the latter are more likely to tart themselves up and draw attention. When they do this, they are not going in a direction contrary to womanly sex appeal, they are going in the same direction but taking it farther. The analogy for guys would (as BB I believe posted), gettting buff and always conveniently losing your shirt. This is not typically what hipsters do nor is it how the typical guy sees them.

    2) For men, there is no herd. Brendan/Nova makes this point a lot. Men do not cooperate qua men. Groups of men may get together to pursue common intersets but they typically do so either in isolation from or in competition with other groups.

  • Anacaona

    @Escoffier
    Sorry I think you are rationalizing it. If the Hipsters wouldn’t be getting laid you (and I mean men that hate Hipsters in general) wouldn’t even acknowledge their existence. Let’s agree to disagree shall we?