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Tough Talk about Sexual Market Value

market-value-vs-price-home-value2In response to yesterday’s Keep Trying post, reader Mary H asks:

On the one hand, posts like this suggest that you should always keep reaching, always keep trying to get someone better. On the other hand, books like Lori Gottlieb’s “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” suggest that reaching too much is problematic. So how should a girl go about reconciling being discerning in who she chooses to be her boyfriend with being realistic? How should she navigate the two ends of the spectrum, one of which is being too picky and the other of which is being too desperate?

My intention in writing the post was not to suggest women should succumb to Hypergamy Insanity, but to communicate that rejection and failure are inevitable in mating. If we respond to it by shutting down, we get stuck and our dating lives grind to a halt. That’s a waste of time, but there’s also the enormous opportunity cost – a guy who would be great for you is out there looking!

However, Mary H does raise an important question. What if your failures are a result of your aiming too high, as was the case with Ms. Gottlieb? Yesterday, I suggested in a comment thread that if a woman is getting zero attention from men she likes, there are two possibilities:

1. She needs to up her Game.

2. She needs to lower her standards. 

In both cases, her goal should be to find a man of the same level of attractiveness. We frequently use the term SMV, or sexual market value, when discussing this issue, but the concept has limited value when discussing relationships because it just means “how hot you are.” A more robust concept is MMV, marital market value. This comprises your value to a potential mate based on all the traits you bring to a committed relationship, included your physical assets.

In this era of casual sex, or hookup culture, more focus is given to SMV, but even here the concept falls short. Actual SMV and Effective SMV may diverge. For example, a guy with an SMV of 9 will usually be willing to have sex with a girl whose SMV is 7 or higher. If he’s wearing beer goggles, who knows how low he can go! This girl essentially gets two free points for easy access to sex, bringing her effective SMV to 9, at least for that one night. Over time, this 7 begins to see herself as a genuine 9, despite the fact that no male of that value would ever consider dating her. We’ve all seen this in real life, and certainly on facebook. It’s a form of self-delusion. 

It works in the other direction as well. The female 9, unwilling to sell herself short with a ONS, wants the male 9 to be her boyfriend. Yet time and again, the male 9 chooses to hook up with the 7. Although the beautiful girl deserves her SMV rating of 9, in this market she pays a penalty for being choosy, reducing her SMV a couple of  points. She may elect to date a guy with an SMV of 7, who gets a bump for his interest in committing to her. This too is readily observed on any college campus. 

The most important thing you can do in dating is reach a valid assessment of your own SMV. Disregard all male attention you’ve received that indicates sexual interest. Include all male attention that constituted attraction plus a desire to spend non-sexual time with you. The average SMV of the males in the latter group is probably a good estimate of your own. (Keep in mind that if you’re in a sorority or spending a lot of time with douchey guys, you may have no guys in the latter group even if you are attractive – that’s a characteristic of that particular market niche in college. You can branch out or wait out the college years.)

Once you have a clear idea of where you reside on the spectrum, you have two choices, as mentioned above.

Up Your Girl Game

  1. Achieve and maintain physical fitness.
  2. Dress to flatter your body shape and use makeup to enhance your features.
  3. Aim for a vibe in your appearance that says “girlfriend” rather than hookup. 
  4. Cultivate a friendly demeanor and pleasant personality. 
  5. Recognize that guys will care about your sexual history, and behave accordingly.
  6. Indicate interest in a relationship to filter out cads and attract like-minded guys.

(Note: You may want to check out the Hooking Up Smart Girl Game Spring Challenge. Begin here.)

Once you have reached the point where you feel confident you look your best, get out there and see whether you get a different level or type of male appreciation. If you are still attracting men primarily for sex, you’re doing it wrong. 

If you are attracting men for relationships whom you do not find attractive, and you have done everything in your power to maximize your own MMV, then comes the unpleasant but necessary task of facing facts.

Lower Your Standards

I know, this does not sound like much fun, but you’re aiming too high. Somewhere, somehow, you got an inflated sense of your market value. This is not easy to fix, but it can be done. 

I’ve seen women effectively reset their attraction triggers and work harder to find the MMV in men, rather than focusing strictly on SMV. They were able to attract and form relationships with men who were a close match in terms of values, education, and physical attractiveness. Other women, like Ms. Gottlieb, were not able to make this adjustment, or made it too late, when they were forced to compete with younger, wiser women. These are the women who get to 40 and wonder why they never met “the one.” They provide their own answer – they used a funnel so narrow to filter guys that only one could make it through, and he didn’t work out. 

In the end, people do marry others with similar MMV. Don’t price yourself out of the market, or you’ll wind up remaindered. I’m sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. 

The silver lining is that if you work hard to increase your MMV, you may be able to punch above your SMV weight, which is what I managed to do regularly before I was married. For that reason, I’d recommend putting all your energy into Girl Game first, and compromise later if necessary.  

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  • Jason773

    Susan,

    You’re right, it was funny timing, and solid post. This can be really really hard for a woman to do, but the one question a woman needs to ask herself about a guy is…

    “How physically attractive is he compared to myself?”

    If the answer is anything more than ‘marginally better’ there is a very good chance this guy is not going to stick around, and the woman should adjust accordingly. This self actualization can be difficult and painful, but it will save a lot more future pain from getting played.

  • Jason773

    Also, I really wish the lurkers who are young women would comment on this post, just to get their version, but sadly I’m sure that won’t happen.

  • adora

    I’m intrigued by your idea of SMV assessment. Could you elaborate further and make it a post on its own? Are there more quantifiable methods?

    In a normal bell curve, roughly the middle 68% is “normal”. I often feel like I’m at the bottom of normal, assessing myself at the 25 percentile because I was always a fat kid. Low self-esteem made it hard for me to assess my score accurately. My BMI is now well below average while everyone else gain tons over the decade, pushing me up the scale I suppose. Several trainers at my gym assess me at around 7, but I feel that they are just being polite. How do one go about getting an accurate picture?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @adora

      Several trainers at my gym assess me at around 7, but I feel that they are just being polite. How do one go about getting an accurate picture?

      The trainer you pay may be flattering you, but there’s no reasons several would. If you asked for frank feedback, I bet you’d get it. Guys are good about that. In fact, if you have any guy friends you might ask. Or someone’s husband, or bf. Do not ask family members! Definitely not your dad, lol.

      Late bloomers do have some difficulty with this. It sounds like you need a reality check in the other direction – you’re hard on yourself.

      But if you make an effort with guys you should get a sense of how good looking the interested ones are, and then you can deduce your own. Unfortunately, there is no quantifiable method, and of course male tastes vary too. I think the only real way to figure it out is trial and error.

  • Man

    Disregard all male attention you’ve received that indicates sexual interest. Include all male attention that constituted attraction plus a desire to spend non-sexual time with you. The average SMV of the males in the latter group is probably a good estimate of your own.

    A key point, to my mind. Women confound too much SMV with MMV. They are completely different, at least to men’s perception. For the same reason, if a guy tells a woman that she has a SMV of 9, it really does not mean that this same guy would be willing to commit to her, because for this same guy, her MMV might be 6 or less. So the most important factor is to correctly assess her MMV. Well, I don’t like this kind of stuff (market value assessment – it’s weird). Just trying to explain how men behave on average.

    Recognize that guys will care about your sexual history, and behave accordingly.

    Women will need “Girl Game” here to deal properly with this, if she’s not a virgin. Often women make the mistake of trying to explain what happened, how her past boyfriends were all cads (terror!). The best is to be honest and employ “Girl Game” to reassure him of your interest in him, in a relationship with him, or that she just needs to feel more secure about his intentions/commitment, etc. and avoid talking about the past relationships. Up to you Susan. By the way, this is enough proof that I am not a misoginist. :)

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    I think your “Up Your Girl Game” is missing something. Something like this:

    My personality was (and still is) more toward the teasing, witty, lust for life end of the spectrum. It’s that last bit, by the way, that has always been my secret ingredient for attracting men.

    .

    Regardless of what the cadosphere says, relationship worthy guys care about a lot more than looks. Being interesting, fun, and making a guy feel good about himself is worth a point or two of looks. On the other hand, being a pain in the butt is worth a demerit or two.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, if I may, I would amend “Lower Your Standards” a bit. I am sure that is good and warranted advice in many cases. But not in all cases.

    In many cases, the more needful advice is “Focus more on what is more important and less on what is less important.” I.e., less on looks and swagger, more on … dare I say … virtue.

    “Lower your standards” can simply mean “Stop focusing on the SMV 9 douchebags and drop down to the SMV 7 douchebags.” This will help her get banged more, and perhaps snag a BF (for a while) but it’s not a strategy for long-term happiness. I suggest the clarification because I know that this is not what you mean.

    What you describe–the 7 who is used to attention from 9s and therefore thinks she always deserves 9s and will not look at 7s–that girl does need to lower her standards. But she may also need to change her type, if she can.

    The real problem are 6s who don’t find male 6s attractive, 7s who can’t stomach 7s, etc. I don’t know what to say to them or even if they can be talked out of it.

    But if it’s possible to take girls who overvalue looks and swagger and undervalue loyalty, diligence, decency etc., and help them start to value the former less and the latter more, then that would seem to me to be just about the most useful thing that could be done for today’s SMP (and for today’s young women).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier, @Esau

      “Lower your standards” can simply mean “Stop focusing on the SMV 9 douchebags and drop down to the SMV 7 douchebags.”

      That’s a fair point. I guess I wasn’t clear enough in the post, so let me explain what I mean by “lower your standards.”

      We know that female entitlement and narcissism has been growing at a rapid clip since the 90s. The self-esteem movement in schools is a major culprit, and feminism has also contributed. Consequently, many young women grow up with an inflated sense of their own value. I have known women of average attractiveness who believe they are beautiful, even stunning. It’s remarkable – I guess Mom and Dad tell them this, but I don’t understand why real market results don’t convey the reality. In any case, we have a surfeit of 6s thinking they’re 9s. These are the women who need to lower their standards. That’s not a slam against guys, it’s simply an acknowledgement that a recalibration is overdue in the SMP. Way too many women thinking they’re too good for men of their own SMV.

      But if it’s possible to take girls who overvalue looks and swagger and undervalue loyalty, diligence, decency etc., and help them start to value the former less and the latter more, then that would seem to me to be just about the most useful thing that could be done for today’s SMP (and for today’s young women).

      I did try to get at this in the discussion of resetting one’s attraction triggers and focusing on MMV. But I’m glad you highlighted it in the thread.

  • Joe

    Wow. Susan, what you’ve said is even better advice for the guys.

    Adora, many people judge themselves harder than they need too, and because it’s generally not attractive, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I heard a rule of thumb once. It goes “You can feel sorry for yourself for five minutes every day.” After that, you just enjoy the rest of it anyway.

  • Hope

    Escoffier, I value those virtues quite a lot. But there weren’t a lot of guys who had those virtues to begin with, so I didn’t think it was even possible to meet such a guy. Even something as simple as honesty — I met nerdy guys who were not alpha dbags but who still lied to me!

    My husband is really, really rare, a male unicorn, and I have not met anyone in my age range who is remotely close, before or after him. Virtue is in short supply in the world…

  • Escoffier

    Hope, perhaps the supply will react to more demand!

  • Mary H.

    Wow, Susan, thanks for answering my question in such an insightful manner!!

    “Late bloomers do have some difficulty with this. It sounds like you need a reality check in the other direction – you’re hard on yourself.”

    That pretty much describes why I have so much difficulty balancing both ends of the spectrum. I *am* one of those late bloomers (I was an unattractive nerd from elementary through half of high school), and I only recently figured out that I’m a catch and decided to do things to enhance my attractiveness even more. Andrew’s blog “The Rules Revisited” has been a ton of help in that regard. It was reassuring that I ran into an old high school classmate yesterday who I hadn’t seen in years, and she didn’t recognize me because apparently, I look different now.

    At any rate, what all of that has meant is that I’ve never actually TRIED to get a guy on the upper end of my league. I’ve always settled, because settling always felt “safer” than reaching for guys who might not stick around. In the end, though, I’ve ended up sorely disappointed in all of those past relationships.

    So I like your “up your girl game” suggestion, because I’m 21 – I can afford to test the waters with trial and error and get practice at this for now. Who knows? Maybe if I up my Girl Game, I could do better than I thought I could and better than I’ve done before! :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mary H.

      So I like your “up your girl game” suggestion, because I’m 21 – I can afford to test the waters with trial and error and get practice at this for now. Who knows? Maybe if I up my Girl Game, I could do better than I thought I could and better than I’ve done before!

      It’s worth experimenting! Take some time to figure out what works best for you. For you the key is going to be filtering out men who may be attractive but don’t meet your long-term criteria for a relationship. IOW, they don’t have high MMV.

  • Escoffier

    Curious, Mary, in what way(s) your previous BFs were disappointing to you.

  • Marky Mark

    Susan,

    How did you punch above your weight before marriage if none of them took you seriously?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marky Mark

      How did you punch above your weight before marriage if none of them took you seriously?

      Who says they didn’t take me seriously?

  • gin martini

    I predict amazing success targeting men at the high end. Enjoy! Go hot as possible! I suggest hockey and lacrosse players.

  • Mary H.

    @Escoffier

    In fairness, I made my share of mistakes in those relationships, too. That said, some reasons it wouldn’t have worked out in the long-term with past boyfriends include: Lack of ambition or drive, drugs (they were doing drugs, not me – I wasn’t okay with that), immaturity (one was younger than me and still had all the makings of teenage boy rebelliousness), incompatibility about fundamental values (I valued education MUCH more than 2 of them did, so I would get annoyed when they would blow off school to mess around while I was still trying to be a good student), lack of situational awareness (which sometimes made me embarrassed to be in their company), and still living with parents and having no job in their late 20s (that describes one of them) to name a few.

  • Anacaona

    Escoffier, I value those virtues quite a lot. But there weren’t a lot of guys who had those virtues to begin with, so I didn’t think it was even possible to meet such a guy. Even something as simple as honesty — I met nerdy guys who were not alpha dbags but who still lied to me!

    My husband is really, really rare, a male unicorn, and I have not met anyone in my age range who is remotely close, before or after him. Virtue is in short supply in the world…
    +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      LOL, you typed out a whole lot of zeros.

  • J

    In a normal bell curve, roughly the middle 68% is “normal”. I often feel like I’m at the bottom of normal, assessing myself at the 25 percentile because I was always a fat kid.

    What you looked like as a kid is completely irrelevant to people who didn’t know you then. It has nothing to do with your current SMV.

    That said, you really need to look beyond your SMV to your relationship/marriage market value where more than looks count. Look for men who of similar market value across a variety of criteria.

  • Steph
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Steph

      Andrew at RR has really gotten some traction – women like his blog a lot. I do too – he’s doing a great service.

  • xxxxx

    Susan said to Adora

    But if you make an effort with guys you should get a sense of how good looking the interested ones are, and then you can deduce your own.

    But isn’t this contradictory to what you said earlier, Susan ? That men with high SMVs frequently pay attention to women with lower SMVs so assessing the SMV of men who show interest in you is not necessarily a good indicator of your SMV.

    Also, what happens when men within a broad range of SMV show interest ? Ranging from men who are old and really not attractive at all to men in their prime with model/movie star looks ?

  • Gin martini

    easy, the highest of the ones who are willing to date you exclusively. If that model will go on the record to not bang anyone else, plus, doesn’t cheat, then congratulations!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      easy, the highest of the ones who are willing to date you exclusively.

      I hear this a lot in the sphere, but I don’t think it’s a very good metric for this SMP. Mostly because dating exclusively can take weeks or even months! And that speaks to MMV. Women need to get a sense of how attractive guys find them at the outset, but as Sassy pointed out, they need to distinguish sexual interest from general interest in men.

  • Escoffier

    Mary, that’s a good addendum to my initial comment. In some respects, girls need to RAISE, not lower, their standards. They just need to raise them about things that are, in the long run, more important than looks and cocky swagger.

    You have realized that at a young age, which will put you ahead.

  • Sassy6519

    But isn’t this contradictory to what you said earlier, Susan ? That men with high SMVs frequently pay attention to women with lower SMVs so assessing the SMV of men who show interest in you is not necessarily a good indicator of your SMV.

    There is a difference between sexual interest and relationship interest.

    If high SMV males only pay attention to a woman in order to have sex with her and nothing else, she is not in their league.

    I’ve said several times on several different posts on this blog; The best way to ascertain one’s SMV is to judge the SMVs of the men who have been willing to commit to you.

    It’s pretty easy for a guy to bang a girl and nothing more. It’s a completely different story for a guy to agree to an exclusive monogamous relationship.

  • Sassy6519

    Gin Martini beat me to it. :D

  • Mary H.

    @Escoffier

    The funny thing is, my best friend and I were having a conversation about the thread you raised just yesterday. We call it “The Don Draper Paradox” (referring to the protagonist of “Mad Men”). We’re all attracted to the Don Drapers of the world (well-dressed, put-together, confident, commanding, successful, ambitious, handsome), but the problem is that they probably don’t make very good boyfriends or husbands. Even on TV (yes, I recognize TV does not 100% reflect reality, but in this particular instance, I think the analogy holds), Don Draper serially cheats on his wife and then lies about it, drinks more than he should, and fails to take responsibility for his actions. On the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, though, Marshall Erickson (on “How I Met Your Mother”) is loyal, dependable, devoted to his wife, and financially stable, but he’s also not very confident, cries a lot, and is SO devoted to his wife that he rarely sticks up for himself.

    So, it would seem the ideal guy lies somewhere between Don Draper and Marshall on the spectrum of traits. Where on the spectrum? Probably slightly closer to Marshall (although not on that extreme side), but I guess that’s still to be determined :)

  • Jackie

    Re: Virtue

    I agree (as usual!) with Hope and Ana: Virtue is rare in this world of ours, sadly. :(

    I observe that many people view virtue as a hindrance to “getting ahead” and so it’s usually the first thing to go. It gets a lot of lip service, but is rarely carried out with the unspectacular courage it requires.

    In many ways, religious people can be extremely confusing in this regard. They can be some of the biggest talkers/littlest doers of them all. They can be awesome at pontificating but many can be rather lame in execution. (Jesus cracks down on them pretty hardcore in Matthew 23:27, by the way.)

  • Escoffier

    Mary, I’m extremely well dressed and a very good husband. I don’t cry either. We’re out there. You’re 21, plenty of time, but so much that you can waste any.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: lowering your standards. I think that there may be a “growth vs. value” aspect to common male SMV valuation that *some* young women may be able to utilize to advantage, provided that they are pretty independent.

    I think that girls in the campus and to some extent post-campus SMPs are going to pay a premium for traditionally hot guys and at this point this should be assumed into any pricing strategies. These guys are not the unreconstructed men of a previous generation who were still playing by a “provider/dad” notion of traditional masculinity that has now been lampooned and successfully attacked by 2nd wave and 3rd wave feminists; the new generation is aware of how things have changed and is only too aware that many educated women are being sexually active from approx. 16 to 30 before having a first child, and that said educated women outnumber them and are somewhat captive because of hypergamy.

    During the pre-marriage sexually active period, SMV and superficial assessments of hotness appear to dominate decision-making (as you would expect—why focus on MMV during a time when marriage is considered inappropriate). These will come at a steep price as the woman has become the buyer and the scarce, educated + hot hypergamy-satisfying high-SMV male has become the seller.

    With some notable exceptions, the hot guy has an incentive to play the field until he no longer can access young women who are still in the pre-husband shopping mode. Let’s say that women all switched to intense husband-shopping by age 30; hot guy might assess that he will be able to still land 29yos at age 33, but perhaps his stock with the libertine hookup-friendly group might plummet when he hits 34. He will then assume that his days of happy bachelorhood would be ending around 34-35, because the pool of women willing to have NSA sex with him will dry up and he will have to start putting commitment on the table.

    In practice, of course, these are just coarse estimates and he will have to find his hard limit by trial-and-error; maybe he will be “over the hill” in SMP terms by 30 or maybe he’ll be a Dos Equis international swordsman and still be hitting it at 50. He’ll find that out as he ages and is forced to be ruthlessly honest with himself about his downrange results. There’s just no way to know in advance.

    However, a young woman who can avoid the hot guy auction and its Winner’s Curse effects would obviously be able to fish from far less sharply-competitive waters. She just needs to be able to date and, yes, fuck guys that are not all that hot (but may have many other great traits that are just not being included in the SMV calculus). If she is lucky, she may be just wired in such a way that she finds less conventional men to be legitimately attractive. If she is not as lucky, then this may take an unusually open-minded approach to dating and sex. The hard part for her may be that it is probably difficult to see the full value in a commitment-minded future provider male when she is 19 and knows that these traits won’t really be super-important to her for another 10 years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I think that girls in the campus and to some extent post-campus SMPs are going to pay a premium for traditionally hot guys and at this point this should be assumed into any pricing strategies.

      …She just needs to be able to date and, yes, fuck guys that are not all that hot (but may have many other great traits that are just not being included in the SMV calculus).

      By hot I assume you are referring to good looks. I have been surprised, quite frankly, and how physically average or even unattractive many frat guys are. Athletes tend to have good bodies, but their looks are also all over the map.

      I’m sure that if you lined up all the best looking men on campus – the 8s, 9s, and 10s, you’d have a mix of restricted and unrestricted types. Especially since women tend to prefer slightly feminized faces to hyper masculine ones. Similarly, if you lined up all the “players” on campus, you’d have a mix of good looking and ugly guys.

      In order of preference, for most women:

      1. Hot restricted guy
      2. Hot unrestricted guy
      3. Less attractive restricted guy
      4. Less attractive unrestricted guy

      In addition, the number of men who are universally considered hot is probably between 1 and 3%. There’s another huge cohort of men between these guys and those who “are not all that hot.”

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Before someone makes an observation about knowing some hot/high-SMV alpha guys who who want relationships and do not exploit their position in the SMP, keep in mind that the existence of these men and stories told about them are what keeps the Chasing Alpha dream alive for many young women, as they feel that this guy, this time will be different and they will be the ones to tame the sexy beast. Relationship-minded alphas paradoxically end up helping their less-pair-bond-oriented brethren to be even more successful at obtaining casual sex.

    Also keep in mind that these relationship-alpha guys will be off the market early unless they have incredibly high standards, which will present their own problems.

  • Anacaona

    n the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, though, Marshall Erickson (on “How I Met Your Mother”) is loyal, dependable, devoted to his wife, and financially stable, but he’s also not very confident, cries a lot, and is SO devoted to his wife that he rarely sticks up for himself.
    Talk about yourself I love Marshall and Don Draper looks like an asshole. EWWWWW.

    Before someone makes an observation about knowing some hot/high-SMV alpha guys who who want relationships and do not exploit their position in the SMP, keep in mind that the existence of these men and stories told about them are what keeps the Chasing Alpha dream alive for many young women, as they feel that this guy, this time will be different and they will be the ones to tame the sexy beast. Relationship-minded alphas paradoxically end up helping their less-pair-bond-oriented brethren to be even more successful at obtaining casual sex.

    Also keep in mind that these relationship-alpha guys will be off the market early unless they have incredibly high standards, which will present their own problems.

    The wisest comment ever.
    The exceptions are the ones talked about because they are rare. I think most women attain their value to be one of those exceptions. You don’t need to tame an Alpha to find happiness and love. In fact trying to tame the Alpha might make you miss the chance at happiness, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    In many ways, religious people can be extremely confusing in this regard. They can be some of the biggest talkers/littlest doers of them all. They can be awesome at pontificating but many can be rather lame in execution. (Jesus cracks down on them pretty hardcore in Matthew 23:27, by the way.)
    There is also the fact that the religious people that walk the walk are not considered fun and they don’t get the show that they actually exist because no one wants to associate themselves with a ‘boring prude’

  • JS

    Long time lurker. Being relatively new, back in the dating game, and now age 40, where does an attractive woman fit in, SMV, when she’s fit and attractive, but perhaps has what one might consider a “down side,” such as a small child? I hope I am not inviting comments that will scare me back to lurkdom, but I am realistic that my slightly older age and my (sweet, well-behaved little guy) is still putting me in a category that is at odds with my actual SMV and career independence. But, I’m kind of new to this. Married 14 years, separated 2, and barely a date, though everyone thinks it should be “such a piece of cake” for me. PLEASE, no vicious assaults. (I’ve been reading this blog a long time, and so afraid to post.)

  • Lokland

    @JS

    A couple thoughts,

    Probably dating older guys would be a better approach.
    Also, perhaps another divorced/separated guy with kids.

    A kid is kind of a blow to intimacy and I think it would be difficult to find a guy that is
    a) worth having and
    b) willing to raise someone else’s kid

    However if you both have kids that cancels it out and you are both offering each other mutual benefits. (You scratch my back I’ll scratch yours- type thing.)

    Makes it far easier to offer someone a relationship with the requirement of childcare if the action is reciprocal.

    My 2 cents.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Probably dating older guys would be a better approach.
    Also, perhaps another divorced/separated guy with kids.

    A kid is kind of a blow to intimacy and I think it would be difficult to find a guy that is
    a) worth having and
    b) willing to raise someone else’s kid

    However if you both have kids that cancels it out and you are both offering each other mutual benefits. (You scratch my back I’ll scratch yours- type thing.)

    Makes it far easier to offer someone a relationship with the requirement of childcare if the action is reciprocal.

    My 2 cents.

    +1

  • http://spootville.blogspot.com/ Tim

    Wash and brush your hair then wear a dress and heels and you’ll be significantly more appealing than a surprising number of other girls.

    At the very least, you should loose your flip-flops and Uggs.

  • JS

    Not sure how to comment properly and quote others, but I don’t have a problem in this department :)

    Wash and brush your hair then wear a dress and heels and you’ll be significantly more appealing than a surprising number of other girls.

    At the very least, you should loose your flip-flops and Uggs.

  • Esau

    Hope at 10: “My husband is really, really rare, a male unicorn, and I have not met anyone in my age range who is remotely close, before or after him. Virtue is in short supply in the world…”

    Bah … which is short for, “My anecdotal experience is quite at odds with yours here.” Way back when, when I was exiting college, I could have given you the names, addresses, phone numbers (no cell phones back then) and family histories of at least ten friends of mine with this exactly kind of virtue, very much like your description of your DH: honest, steady, funny, generous and intelligent, right down to the last man. By now these men are (mostly) happily married and devoted to their families, but back then they were free for the taking (except, of course, there were very few takers, for reasons already much discussed). So, no, I don’t agree at all here; and rather take affront on behalf of a lot of excellent human beings.

    Why then the gap between perception and reality? I theorize, though without a scientific study to prove it, that many young women — not meaning to include Hope necessarily — falsely insist that men of virtue are rare, so as to avoid having to confront the fact that they don’t actually find such virtue attractive. As Escoff said, if there were more demand, then supply would surely follow.

  • gin martini

    Define fit: measurements in inches, and squat 1rm.

  • mr. wavevector

    @JS,

    Your SMV is the sum of your pluses and minuses. Being attractive and fit are pluses. Being 40, being separated, and having a kid are minuses – significant ones. Career independence? A plus in this circumstance – it means you can support yourself and your son – unless you’re a workaholic. So you have to be realistic – your SMV is going to be much lower than younger, never-married, childless woman.

    One of the recurring themes here is that assortative mating is usually best – find a mate who is similar to you, in a similar life circumstance. Lockland was right – a divorced dad with kids would be your best bet.

    Another possibility is you find a single 40-something man who has never married, and who is lower in SMV than you would have considered when you were younger. Not as tall or handsome or fit or well hung or rich or whatever it is you find attractive. You are more attractive but you are handicapped by your circumstances, so now you two are well matched – on paper, anyway. But the reality can be difficult – you are both settling in different ways. You’re getting a less attractive man, he’s getting a second hand wife with the child of another man. That’s a recipe for a sexless and resentful union.

  • JS

    he’s getting a second hand wife with the child of another man. That’s a recipe for a sexless and resentful union.

    That sounds pretty mean. A second-hand wife?

  • Lokland

    @mr. WV

    LOK

    not lock

  • Sassy6519

    Oh boy………

    I don’t see this ending well.

  • Lokland

    @Esau

    “Way back when, when I was exiting college, I could have given you the names, addresses, phone numbers (no cell phones back then) and family histories of at least ten friends of mine with this exactly kind of virtue, very much like your description of your DH: honest, steady, funny, generous and intelligent, right down to the last man. By now these men are (mostly) happily married and devoted to their families”

    +1
    with the added caveat that most of these men married women with similarly dismal histories

    Unsurprising. Virtue isn’t attractive, height and good looks are.
    Of course, unsurprisingly the guys who lack these things but had virtue had to get something to attract the women in the first place.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    Popcorn?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Popcorn?

    Yes please. I’ve saved us some good seats too.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ JS,

    I am not trying to be mean. Consider this: no one leaves a marriage that failed after 14 years without emotional scars and issues. A man who partners with you will be living with those issues every day. He’s not getting the young fresh you of 26, is he? And if he’s never been married, he won’t be able to relate.

    On the other hand, a man who has been through similar life experiences will have his own scars and issues and will be able to understand where you are coming from better.

  • Esau

    In the OP: Yesterday, I suggested in a comment thread that if a woman is getting zero attention from men she likes, there are two possibilities:

    1. She needs to up her Game.

    2. She needs to lower her standards.

    Oh, my, how totally … regrettable. Susan, if I may say, you’ve really screwed the pooch (as the saying goes) on this one with point #2, phrased as it is here. Can’t you just picture the man’s reaction after hearing, many years later, “Oh sweetheart, we’re so happy together. I’m so glad that I lowered my standards just before I met you.” ? Or a woman’s reaction, for that matter. Bzzzt. Sorry, proceed directly to marital misery, do not pass Go or collect any more happiness, ever. Really, it’s hard even to imagine a more cutting or disrespectful thought to hear from one’s partner; and keeping it secret through your relationship is, in some ways, even worse.

    The remainder of the text in the OP tells a somewhat different, and better, story, and so later mitigates this first ghastly misstep. I’ll write more about the later substance when I get a chance; but just want to make the immediate point that the lead of the OP as written is a really, truly awful thing to say, and also just not good advice in any LTR-oriented dimension.

  • JS

    It’s okay. But I sense drama coming on, which I thought I might possibly avoid with my truly sincere, original post. I think Susan has very logical and good information, but this forum may not be right for me.

    You guys can move on to other topics.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JS

      Welcome, I am sincerely pleased that you decided to de-lurk. I’m sorry you were offended so early on – I agree with you that “second hand wife” is an unfortunate term – as if you might be purchased at the Divorcee Pawn Shop. Mr. WV is a good man, and a great commenter, I believe he meant no harm.

      Men communicate in a more direct way than we do, and they don’t get hurt feelings very easily, so their commentary can be very blunt at times. All I can say is that the guys now here are teddy bears compared to some of the men who used to launch grenades here.

      In any case, please feel free to participate any time – I’ll try to keep an eye out.

      FWIW, I agree with those who say you’re going to have more success with men over 40 – I assume you’re not planning any cougar moves. I know several men who have happily married women with a child, but of course some will rule you out on that basis.

      I suggest starting with online dating, and being very open from the start about your circumstances. You will filter out men that way – a feature, not a bug.

      Best of luck.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Esau,

    Don’t worry, no one would say “I lowered my standards”. They say “I learned what was important in a relationship” or “I grew and matured as a person” or “I made some mistakes but learned for them and became a better person for it”.

  • Lokland

    “I’ve saved us some good seats too.”

    As long as I can lean back and put my feet up.

  • Lokland

    @Esau/Mr. WV

    Is it really reasonable to even calling it lowering standards?

    If one is lowering their standards because they can’t achieve them then that set of values is obviously not standard for the individual.

    “Noun
    A level of quality or attainment: “their restaurant offers a high standard of service”.
    Adjective
    Used or accepted as normal or average: “the standard rate of income tax”.”

    So lowering standards is actually just being realistic about ones own value and working with their own standard value.

    I think a long history of being unrealistic (about anything important) is a red flag in and of itself.

    Some mistakes are passable. A lifetimes worth are not.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ Esau,

    Dramatic much? Susan is telling women to lower their standards to THEIR REAL LEVEL OF MMP. Accordingly, these women have an inflated/unwarranted sense of where they rank and should be realistic about their assets. It is not that they are necessarily of higher value and they decided to marry “beneath” them; it is that they are finally dating at THEIR LEVEL.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ JS,

    I understand that you are very sensitive about your situation, and that discussing it publicly is intimidating. And I’ve probably scared you off now. But before you decide to leave, let me try to say something useful.

    Take a look at a comment by Susan on another thread on how she managed to get and keep the guys, despite not being the prettiest girl around. She used her personality:

    My personality was (and still is) more toward the teasing, witty, lust for life end of the spectrum. It’s that last bit, by the way, that has always been my secret ingredient for attracting men.

    Your situation is not unlike Susan’s was then. Your note, which was indeed sincere, shows you want to believe you can still leverage your looks the way you used to, despite all that’s changed. But you are also very sensitive about it. Know why? Because deep down, you know it’s not true.

    But all is not lost. You have a lot more you can use to attract a mate. Despite all the nonsense on the manosphere, many men are interested in more than a woman’s appearance. Being a good companion, friend and lover count for a lot too.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Lokland (with no ‘c’),

    So lowering standards is actually just being realistic about ones own value and working with their own standard value.

    Sure. It’s really just adjusting one’s price to the market. But that may be a difficult adjustment for someone who has spent years compiling lengthy lists of the required characteristics of their future spouse!

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ Susan,

    Who says they didn’t take me seriously?

    Didn’t you hear? Only men break up with you, you don’t break up with them!

  • Mike M.

    @JS:
    Being separated, instead of divorced, is a deal-killer. Men my age (50 in a few weeks) are not going to invest in a woman who may or may not go back to the old husband. And yes, the small child is a significant net drag on your MMV. I have to echo the advice others have given you…look for men who either have a similar background, or men with significantly lower SMVs than MMVs.

  • J

    Hi JS,

    Welcome out of lurkdom.

    but I am realistic that my slightly older age and my (sweet, well-behaved little guy) is still putting me in a category that is at odds with my actual SMV …

    A close friend of mine in her mid-forties with a preteen daughter and autistic teen age son recently divorced her narcissistic husband. She was quite worried that the kids, especially the son, would dissuade men from dating her. Then she met a divorced man with custody of two teenagers–handsom guy, IT project manager, sweet and emotionallly healthy. She met him at a dinner party geiven by mutual friends who did a little matchmaking.

  • doomwolf

    @ Susan

    Just a thought, but instead of telling people to “Lower Your Standards” it might be better to say “be realistic about what you can get.” At least that’s the message I took away from your article.

  • Travis

    Susan touched on this in her original post, but I’d like to stress to the women reading how important it is to maximize their MMV if they’re not attracting the guys they want for commitment.
    I have no problem meeting girls I consider physically or sexually attractive enough to marry. The problem comes when I ask myself if I’m still going to want to be with them ten or twenty years down the road when their looks fade. And the answer is usually “no”.
    I broke up with my girlfriend not too long ago, and the reason was that she spent all her time maximizing her SMV, and little to no time giving thought to her MMV. She in her early thirties and still very physically attractive. She dressed extremely well. Sexy and professional without looking slutty. Paid an inordinate amount of time to her hair and makeup. Put in long hours at the gym keeping herself in shape, etc.
    But I can’t recall one time when I came home and she asked me how my day went. She took absolutely no interest in the things I’m interested in. Didn’t even pretend. I rarely got the impression that she had my back. And worst of all, she almost always seemed to be harried and stressed out about something. I, (and I think most guys) want someone we can laugh and smile with. I once brought this up and her response was “Just because I don’t go around all day grinning and laughing like an idiot, doesn’t mean I’m not happy.”
    Now I realize that reading this it sounds like she probably just wasn’t all that into me. But she moved across three states to be with me, and asked me to marry her several times. And since I’m not exactly a wealthy guy, I’m assuming that her attraction for me wasn’t the problem. She just had no idea how important all the intangibles are to a guy looking for a wife. In her mind, the way to a man’s heart is through his pants. She assumed that if you look good enough, and you’re good enough in bed, the other stuff wouldn’t really matter. After all, being sexy always got her plenty of male attention. What she didn’t realize is that there’s a difference in how to go about attracting a man physically, and how to attract him on a deeper level.
    More evidence came when I started to lose interest. Her response was to ramp up the “sexy”. Meeting me at the door in sexy lingerie, trying crazier things in bed, etc. She thought that’s what was REALLY important to men (don’t get me wrong, those things are awesome), but it’s not enough when you’re looking to attract a husband. So much more comes into play for a guy when he’s trying to decide who he wants to spend the rest of his life with.
    My advice would be to pay extremely close attention to Hope, Anaconda, and Susan. Particularly how they refer to their husbands in their posts. It’s easy to see that they absolutely adore the guys they’re with. Just judging by the way they talk about their mates, I have no doubt that their SO’s have very little concern about their faithfulness or the depth of their feelings for them. They come across as fiercely loyal and supportive. In short, marriage material. Unfortunately, in my experience the women who understand this seem to be in short supply nowadays.
    To summarize, maximizing your SMV is gonna’ get the guy through the door (which is the easy part), but maximizing your MMV is what’s gonna’ keep him around. I realize Susan has stressed that point several times, but IMO it can’t be said enough.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Travis

      Thank you for that epic comment at 2:26 this morning.

      Your description of your ex reminds me of a clique of about six women at my gym – all in their 30s. They’re all regulars – have been working out there at least five years. They’re very insular, always gossiping, talking during class, etc. They all show up to exercise in makeup, diamonds and of course Lululemon workout clothes. (They wouldn’t be caught dead in Nike.) In short, they’re total bitches, and I’ve wondered what they must be like as wives and mothers. Over the years a couple have gotten divorced (one cannot help but overhear the whining and desire for vengeance). The worst one of all has just recently been showing up to the gym without wedding rings on. It may mean nothing – but she used to flash around big stones. All I can think is “I imagine your husband has left you, because you are such an unpleasant narcissist!”

      You are very wise not to marry a woman with those personality traits.

  • JS

    I probably didn’t express myself well last night. I am not concerned about my looks. I have fear of sounding as though I have conceit or an ego, and that is not the impression I want to give. I am thin, am constantly told that I am very attractive, stylish, but the reality is–I am 40 (although most people would guess me at about 5 years younger).

    Yet, the fact exists that many men my age are married. The pool of potential mates is substantially lower, and it doesn’t matter how pretty you are! Or nice you are. I am actually divorced (when I said separated 2 years, I was trying to convey how long I was out of the relationship). I work for myself in an interesting career, but I do have a young son, which makes it hard to get out in the evenings frequently. However, I have a good support of family and babysitters, so I can be social, if I have the opportunity.

    I suppose the point of my question was–how much of a liability against your looks/personality is having a child and being divorced? When I got married, at 26, I married an older man with a child, a 5 year old. I was so in love that the child was absolutely not a “deal breaker” for me. I still don’t regret that. But I don’t know if men think the same. Maybe one day, I will find someone and it won’t be a deal breaker for him, but I just wonder . . . I don’t need anyone to support me or my child . . .

    Anyhow, I know this forum is mainly about younger issues, but this actually seemed to sort of fit with the topic discussed, so I finally chimed in.

  • http://www.howyoucanfindlove.com Don @ HowYouCanFindLove

    As a man, I put more weight on the MMV as opposed to the SMV of the woman. But this wasn’t always the case. I do so now because I am looking for a woman to marry and MMV means more to me in terms of a long term wife than SMV. When I was in my late teens/early 20′s, I couldn’t cares less about a woman’s MMV. I just focused on the SMV…the higher the better. And this wasn’t just for one night stands, this was for on night stands and relationships, which is why 100% of those relationships failed.

  • Lokland

    @JS

    “how much of a liability against your looks/personality is having a child and being divorced?”

    It will depend upon who you want to date.

    Another divorced guy with kids, probably none.

    A guy with no kids of his own. Your son will be a negative for him (and thus as Mr. WV said you will have to offer him something extra, probably attractiveness meaning you will need to dip down a bit.)

    Also, keep in mind. At 26 marrying a guy with kids you had a reasonable expectation of having children of your own.
    A man with no kids marrying you can be reasonably certain it will not be for children of his own.

    Food for thought.

  • Pingback: Walsh Provides Frank Assessment of “Marital Market Value” | 1st Feline Battalion

  • Esau

    Susan at 54: ” In any case, we have a surfeit of 6s thinking they’re 9s. These are the women who need to lower their standards. “

    Mireille at 51: ” these women have an inflated/unwarranted sense of where they rank and should be realistic about their assets. It is not that they are necessarily of higher value and they decided to marry “beneath” them; it is that they are finally dating at THEIR LEVEL.”

    doomwolf at 63: but instead of telling people to “Lower Your Standards” it might be better to say “be realistic about what you can get.”

    I believe this point has been made clearly; but I still disagree, and think it’s a bad idea. My complaint from above still holds: what will be your reaction after your beloved (M or F) tells you, “I’m so glad that I stopped chasing after people out of my league, and took up with you instead.”? How is that going to make you feel about yourself and your relationship? Do we have any takers, people who can say they’d be glad to hear that from their partner? let’s have a show of hands.

    Whatever word you use, “recalibrating” or “lowering your standards” or “lowering your expectations” or “settling” or “being more realistic”, the core of this advice is to give up on what really you want but can’t get and settle — it’s the natural and correct word — for what you can get, period. This may be practical advice for many, many material acquisitions, ie jobs or houses or colleges, etc. But I can state with certainty that I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of this operation for any kind of serious relationship.

    In response to Mireille’s remark, this important point is _not_ whether the person is at my level, per se, it’s whether they are hugely attracted to me as an individual. If I’m a male 6, say, then the woman who is only attracted to male 9′s is a poor match for me, regardless of whether she herself is a 3, a 6, or a 9 or any other number. I don’t want the female 6 who really wants a male 9 to “lower her standards” down to where she’ll consider me, her “natural SMV counterpart”; I don’t want her at all (at least for an LTR) if I’m not on her top shelf to begin with. And, I don’t think it’s a good idea from her point of view either: I think if she just makes a conscious decision simply to give up cold turkey (as it were) on the male 9′s she pines after, then there’s a good chance she’ll always harbor some resentment for having needed to settle for the second or third shelf; it’s not a foundation for a successful relationship.

    So, no, I still think the advice in the OP is bad as constructed, for both parties involved. As I see it, the only really sound and practical advice is along the lines suggested by Escoff at 7: don’t just “lower your standards” to force yourself to settle for second or third best in your current scheme of attraction; change yourself to where you find other things attractive. Improving your taste is a kind of self-improvement, and no one should be ashamed or hesitant to do so.

    PS, from Mireille: “Dramatic much?” Yes, of course; don’t tell me that you’re just noticing now? :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      change yourself to where you find other things attractive. Improving your taste is a kind of self-improvement, and no one should be ashamed or hesitant to do so.

      That is what I meant by resetting attraction triggers. That can only occur once someone has realized they’re playing out of their league, and that yes, they will have to settle for someone of their own value. It’s a recalibration, and once it occurs, I believe that the attraction can be genuine. I don’t recommend that women who experience this explain it to their new mates, provided the attraction is genuine.

      Can’t guys tell if a woman is really into them or not? It should be obvious. If she’s not demonstrating that, she isn’t. I don’t see men at risk here of getting duped.

  • Man

    @Travis: #64: Perfect. Travis, I wonder how you view this dilemma. First, whole generations of young boys were taught that women value gentlemen, with a lot of virtues and who offer commitment and love. I think that there are a lot of men like that out there. Now they’re telling us that the problem is that men are the “Gatekeeper of Commitment” and so a man should never escalate emotionally, so as not to appear “eager to commit”, for he should instead escalate sexually first, because that’s the man’s job in the first place. Then we have a lot of women who instead of escalating emotionally, are more than willing to escalate sexually, sometimes even at random or on the first date. Great part of Susan’s job seems to be to try to convince women to trade sex for non random (casual) sex (not for relationships or commitment). So for me, it seems that modern men’s dilemma is having to sort out Cinderellas among different tastes of porn stars, even though they (men) were always looking for Cinderellas in the first place? :D

  • Jason773

    JS,

    I think most people have hit it correctly here. If you want to find an attractive guy who hits a number of things on your checklist then you are almost certainly going to have to look for divorced fathers in their mid to upper 40s.

    The reality is that you are not going to find a 40yo, successful, never married/no kids attractive guy, not that you are necessarily looking for that. But if you want a guy without his own kids, or never married, then you are going to have to compromise with something. He might be less attractive than you would normally date, or less successful, or a little older (early 50s), etc.

    That’s all there is to it.

  • JS

    I guess I might have to be stubborn on this one. My ex-husband is 49 and I don’t recommend such a big age difference. I really don’t think it works so well.

    I may resign myself to being the “cat lady” with no cats, but I’m not dating guys in their fifties unless they are very youthful 50′s. I can’t see why I have to date someone 10-15 years older just because I have a child.

    If I am delusional, and the world is really that harsh, I can accept that, but it’s not the 1800′s, and since I don’t have to be married to survive, (and don’t know that I want to be, again), I may have to find alternatives. I am in the arts, so there are probably more quirky, non-traditional men than in the average populace. That could help me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JS

      If I am delusional, and the world is really that harsh, I can accept that, but it’s not the 1800′s, and since I don’t have to be married to survive, (and don’t know that I want to be, again), I may have to find alternatives. I am in the arts, so there are probably more quirky, non-traditional men than in the average populace.

      I like your attitude and your odds. Cat lady metaphors are premature, and no one here can or should predict how well you’ll do out there. You’ll learn soon enough if you give it a try. If you’re not dead set on getting married, you essentially have all the time in the world.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “In order of preference, for most women:

    1. Hot restricted guy
    2. Hot unrestricted guy
    3. Less attractive restricted guy
    4. Less attractive unrestricted guy”

    No.
    There is what a women can obtain (for either short or long term).
    Everything below that has no value to them.

    Also, an SMV 5 women who prefers hot unrestricted guys is like the short guy who prefers models.

    Preferences mean nothing if they are unobtainable.

  • doomwolf

    JS, if it makes you feel better, one of my coworkers (now age 33) got married a few years ago to a woman 9yrs older than him with kids. Not exactly the norm, but it is possible.

    Finding someone probably depends a little on the local demographics, he was in CFB Petawawa* when they got married, so the local demographics have a higher-than-average number of young men, relative to the female population; conversely, a number of the young women aren’t exactly what I would call marriage material (when dating in this area, care must be exercised that the girl in question hasn’t already slept with half your battalion).
    *big Canadian military base

  • Lokland

    Meant hot restricted guys.
    Could be either though.

    Preferring something has no relation to what one is able to obtain but is probably correlated with dissatisfaction with ones partner.

  • BuenaVista

    JS,

    I date women in your age group. I prefer women with children, as being a father and a former husband is central to my sense of self. I would just make sure to firewall the child from casual dating interactions.

    That said, it’s an immediate turn-off when a woman blames her divorce on her ex-, in the manner that another commenter did above, explaining that (as though it were a weather report) her friend simply had to divorce the “narcissist” she was married to. So the highwire act is to be a formerly married woman who is able to get through 60 minutes of conversation without referencing the plane crash that was the marriage.

    I think the risk in SMV discussions is the first word: ‘sexual’. I view most of the pick-up artists, in effect, conflating physical attractiveness with sexual value. This is a big mistake unless you’re 15 years old, which some of them appear to be. As you know, most 15 year-olds are sexually active — with themselves and a picture of a hot chick. Being hot does not make for relationship success. Fitness and health (and one more thing) are more important than hot.

    Moreover, I would say that maybe 1 of 10, or 1 of 20, women is memorable in the sack. Looks have much less to do with true sexual market value than is assumed, I think. My first wife was a 10 body/face, 7 brain; my second wife (surprise!) was a 10 brain, 7 body/face. Neither knew how to burn the barn down in the sex department. My fond memories of both have nothing to do with how they looked on a dance floor or what they did or didn’t do in bed. So I am not a proponent of SMV as usually defined; it usually just seems like an argument for a boob job, if you ask me, and I’ve always preferred the real thing.

    I suspect the hard thing for a newly single woman at 40 to absorb is that the dynamics are so different than when they last dated in their 20′s. Feminism says that they aren’t, that men and women are the same, always and forever in their relative appeal — but they are. And markets are brutally efficient. At 25, a woman has all the power. That’s no longer true at 40. Single women at 40 who don’t realize that their options have declined will be frustrated. I got an email from a woman this week who wants to date me, in which she ranted for two paragraphs on how the only men who chase her are too old. Well? What to say? Pass a law? Why are you telling me this? I’m sorry she’s not 25 anymore. If she were she wouldn’t be writing to me, incidentally. She’s ridden the hypergamy train and now there aren’t any seats left.

    Yesterday I had a date with a fun, senior exec of a health care company (mid-40s); she’s a kayaker (shoulders like a wrestler — and she kindly went sleeveless to demonstrate), independent, fun to hang out with because she’s used to grabbing the stage, fit, optimistic, profane in the way that female execs are, which is fun. She’s seven years younger than I. We won’t have a second date. Her expectations are that the dynamics that worked when she was 25 are how it’s going to be now. I’ve zero interest in being teased as a form of seduction, and invited to chase someone around as a form of affection. She’s delusional. Physically she’s a 6-7. At first I didn’t really notice it; at the end, that’s all I saw. What she considers cute or attractive or something, I just found tedious. She’s a 40-something with a really bad haircut who talks too much about her ex-. (Note: men might just identify with your ex- if you talk about him, even if you are saying bad things.) If she had invited me over for a home-cooked lunch, however, I’d have been there presto.

    My suggestions are to be good at your work and parenting, lower your expectations, and be kind and forward-looking (at work, on the street, at the restaurant, in the airport) with the guys. If you meet a good guy make him a sandwich or roast a chicken and watch him fall over. Unbutton his shirt and watch his pupils dilate. I have a few other suggestions that are implied above. In my experience 40 year-old bachelors are freaks, and they’ll have no understanding of what your life has been like, and will be like, and there’s no point. (You couldn’t pay me to have drinks with Katie Bolick.) In my experience the only younger men you will attract will be in it for the easy score or the money, if you are wealthy. Eat Pray Love is a lie. YMMV and godspeed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Buena Vista

      Thank you for taking the time to write out that thoughtful and valuable comment for JS. It was realistic without being harsh, and you offered plenty of encouragement as well.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ Esau,

    First, I really wonder what kind of insensitive person would say to their partner that they’re glad they “finally lowered their standards” in order to marry. That sounds so outlandish it can only be a straw man argument. Case dismissed.

    Second, what is your own responsibility here? Either your partner is so good as cloaking their true feelings/desires (and that would be surprising since they are telling you to your face they lowered their standards), either you yourself lack the ability to determine whether somebody likes you for what you bring. In any case, it is a victim position. Pairing up is not a passive activity.

    So really I don’t see what the argument is here. If you believe that someone can lie or hide their true motives to you, you have to develop your abilities to decipher them yourself. Posing as a victim gets you nowhere.

    On the other hand, this is not to say that some people don’t marry beneath their initial standards, but everyone in general marries because someone has something they truly value, even if it is just one quality such as being a provider. Is it enough? I don’t know but what it means is that we all have something attractive going on for us, whether it is on the SMP or the MMP, and we need to display it more.

  • Joe

    JS.

    As with any advice received online your going to have to screen through some of the projecting.

    Because you are financially stable and can support your child and yourself I don’t believe having a child in tow will be as much of a deal breaker as some believe.

    The idea of looking for a divorced father with children is a good idea. You both will have an understanding of what life is like with children and the hardships that can come with trying to date while being a single parent (children getting sick, no sitter at the last minute.)

    Part of the issue with the single, successful, never married men in their early 40′s, some of them don’t A) want to be in serious relationships B) either have no interest in parenting or are flat out poor at doing the job. Now there are many that will be game for it but it will take time to screen out the ones that don’t.

    Since your looks are in order I would put focus on the “comfort” areas of life. Sharing interests or investing in his, working on issues together and allowing time for things to develop. There’s a good possibility that the man your attempting to date had also been off the market for 15 years and is a bit overwhelmed with how the circus runs now.

  • mr. wavevector

    Mr. WV is a good man, and a great commenter, I believe he meant no harm.

    I admit that was an epic empathy fail!

  • mr. wavevector

    But the title does say “Tough Talk” ;-)

  • mr. wavevector

    @ JS,

    If I am delusional, and the world is really that harsh, I can accept that, but it’s not the 1800′s, and since I don’t have to be married to survive, (and don’t know that I want to be, again), I may have to find alternatives.

    Maybe you just want a boyfriend. If you take marriage off the plate a lot of the concerns I and others raised are moot.

    If I were divorced or widowed I’m not sure I would want or need to get remarried either. Maybe a woman who could be a regular friend, companion, and lover would suffice.

  • JS

    I do appreciate the constructive suggestions. I think I have plenty of confidence in myself, but I am rooted in the reality of a small supply of eligible men.

    But, as I say to myself every day, being alone is better than being desperately unhappy and married.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Can’t guys tell if a woman is really into them or not? It should be obvious. If she’s not demonstrating that, she isn’t. I don’t see men at risk here of getting duped.”

    Much like woman are not at risk of being duped into short term sex?
    Its written all over the guys.

    Or perhaps the people that practice parasitic mating practices have evolved to be deceptive and dishonest about their intentions.

    What if the women who is not into you is acting like she is just to dupe you? (Subconsciously.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Much like woman are not at risk of being duped into short term sex?
      Its written all over the guys.

      Yeah, I guess I was projecting there. I could not feign sexual interest or arousal. I guess I would have made a lousy hooker.

  • Man

    …it means is that we all have something attractive going on for us, whether it is on the SMP or the MMP, and we need to display it more.

    I also think so woman girl! In the case of women, I think they should also risk more taking the initiative so that she has more of an active role in filtering in what she thinks is best for her.

  • BuenaVista

    JS: “but I am rooted in the reality of a small supply of eligible men.”

    This isn’t true, of course. Corrected, it would read ” … a small supply of eligible men who comply with my criteria.”

    A lot of the discussion here circles the subject of what those criteria are, and why do they exist.

    I make no comment on the value of the criterion that you use as a first cut filter on eligible men. (Your age criterion wipes out maybe 80% of the eligible men who are otherwise physically appropriate, but anyone can have any selection bias she chooses.) Mechanically, you’re wiping out your target market before you go sell. That’s how dating at 40 is different at 25, if one is female.

    Men and women are biological creatures. They are not drawn to the same age cohorts at the same time, from puberty until death. Roles, in fact, reverse (they reverse in respect of who carries more social leverage). Dating and relationship building will make little sense and be very, very difficult unless this reality is considered.

    ***

    I meet a lot of women who are widowed by feminist ideology: they keep walking around wondering why reality doesn’t conform to their received feminist ideas, or why the men who do conform to their prosaic expectations (eww, no man more than four years older than I am, patriarchy nix!) do not move them as they wish to be moved. This last paragraph has no bearing on anything JS has said, as I have no basis for interpreting her motivations.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Can’t guys tell if a woman is really into them or not?

    Can’t women really tell that men are only into them for sex and not for relationships? ;)

    Not always so easy, especially since a lot of women do not telegraph their interests aggressively. You read Barking Dog, right? There’s a lot of interesting articles there where even women are not good at determining whether other women are into men.

    Intuition doesn’t work, so what men should be doing is testing with sexual escalation, ideally. Much easier to escalate and get a green-red light than it is to sit back and ponder for 10 hours.

    Hooking up Smart for Men: Escalate and Participate

    Still trying to come up with something that rhymes :P Find new girls and test them. You’re like a ship that’s pinging off sonar pulses to find a hidden sub.

  • JS

    In short supply, I essentially meant: single men, in the right age category, in the same city (or close), who have roughly the same education (which is pretty important if you want to have things in common/talk about, etc). I’m actually far less worried about things like money, or even looks, because I’m in the arts, where it’s very common to be underemployed and have a funky appearance.

    I really don’t go for those traditional type guys at all. I’m more worried about filtering “out” the lawyer/doctor/accountant, etc! haha Trying to keep an open mind . . .

  • Man

    Can’t guys tell if a woman is really into them or not? It should be obvious. If she’s not demonstrating that, she isn’t.

    Susan, it should be and actually it is very, very obvious. Perhaps it only takes us a very long time to realize that we might just be in the “not all that hot” bracket for most women, in spite of our mothers always assuring us we’re so handsome and attractive. :)

    There’s another huge cohort of men between these guys and those who “are not all that hot.”

  • HanSolo

    A quick and very rough rule of thumb for women to determine their SMV ranking:

    Subtract two points from the the average SMV of the hottest 10% of guys that have asked you out or wanted sex from you. This doesn’t work, though, for women who are 8 or above so if you really are getting tons of the hottest guys after you then only subtract 1. And a woman who is a true 10 is so rare that we don’t need to discuss her really.

    Another way is for women to look at the hottest 10% of guys that have been willing to marry you. That should exclude the guys who are a bit lower in SMV but that you would consider marrying because of their MMV.

    Average the two numbers and that probably gives you a reasonable idea. Caveats exist.

    Longer explanation:

    Since men will go down a point or three in looks for casual sex, take all the guys that have ever heavily flirted with you, wanted to go out, wanted sex or had sex with. Let’s say that’s 100. Throw out the top two as possible outliers. Average the SMV of the next 10 hottest.

    If these average out to be 8 or lower then subtract two, maybe 1.5.

    Obviously the hottest women (8.5+) can’t get attention from non-existent 10.5′s so the formula shifts if the average of the top 10 (excluding the two hottest guys) is above 8. In fact it probably breaks down. If these ten average 9, subtract, perhaps 1.

    The SMV of the marriage-seeking men that want to marry you could be lower in some cases, so use the above with care.

  • BuenaVista

    “Can’t guys tell if a woman is really into them or not? It should be obvious. If she’s not demonstrating that, she isn’t.”

    This may not be the issue with men over thirty, in respect of emotional interest (not just sexual). By then one knows that a woman’s emotional interest can turn on a dime. So all the signals of interest are great, but one knows that her hypergamous nature may divert them without warning to a higher status male — and then back again if it doesn’t work with him.

    In terms of immediate sexual interest, yes, it’s so obvious as to be plainer than Kansas. Arm touching (man’s), hair touching (her’s), leaning in; if she’s giggling too, the panties will be on the floor before the car is out of park. But the simplest and most reliable indicator of interest is just the kiss on the lips at the end of the first date. 99.99999% reliable IOI.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the simplest and most reliable indicator of interest is just the kiss on the lips at the end of the first date. 99.99999% reliable IOI.

      Meaning that she kisses back if you initiate? Or are you looking for her to initiate to get that nearly perfect reliability?

  • HanSolo

    @Esau

    I’m surprised at your comments.

    The reality of the world is that many women (and some men) overestimate whom they can get for a committed relationship.

    So, what is a woman or man to do if they find they can’t get the type of person they want after roughly maxing out their own value? Well, they can stay single and hope to get lucky or they can readjust what they’re demanding in a partner and accept that.

    Realizing the fantasy was never going to happen is not necessarily a slight against the realistic partner that one can get. It’s working in the real world.

    It reminds me of John Snow and Sam on the wall. Snow said he wanted to be a ranger and was pissed that he had to stay back at the wall. Sam replied that he “always wanted to be a wizard.” lol

    The partner who’s going to be offended that the woman once fantasized about marrying a movie star is just not in touch with reality. If he wants to be the hypergamous dream man then he better marry about 2 points down. If he wants an equal then the chances are high that she has gone out with and even slept with several guys who are a point or two higher. Of course, there are some women who never were hypergamous or didn’t act on it so he might get lucky and find such a woman.

  • HanSolo

    @JS

    Good luck in your dating pursuits.

    IMO, the state of being a mother or not doesn’t change what your current sexual value because a guy will want to have sex with you based mostly on your looks and to lesser but important extents on your personality and ability in bed.

    However, I think that the effect on your marriage value will depend highly on the man. To a very small minority who don’t want children of their own then it could be a plus because you already have one and won’t be “pestering” for him to have one. Others with kids of their own may see it as a neutral. More men without kids might see it as a negative since it could get in the way of you two travelling the world and having fun.

    I think there is an age-related component though. I think that younger men in their 20′s and 30′s are going to perceive a woman’s child as a knock on her marriage value because they may want their own or want to enjoy some LTR and marriage time with her without any children.

    Older men will be all over the map with some not liking it and others neutral and a small amount actually liking it.

    So, putting this all together, marriage value is probably lowered by about 1 point amongst single, childless men younger than 39 and by about 0.5 pts with a big spread for men above 40.

    Just my $0.02. Good luck and don’t feel bad about comments you get on here. The vast majority are given with good intentions.

  • BuenaVista

    @98. Man initiates always. It must be done no matter what stress the guy is feeling. Even if her body language is off-putting, it is the only way to determine if there is an interest level sufficient for a second date, and btw, suddenly she may completely reverse body language after the man leans in for the first kiss and be draped all over the man. All women turn their heads and give you a cheek if you are already in the friendzone. It is absolutely uncanny how this test is accurate.

    No woman will initiate the good-night kiss, in my experience. They want Prince Charming to do that, so fine, take one for the team and risk embarrassment. They will invite you inside, quite often, but even than could be ambiguous and unpleasant. I don’t go inside unless I really need a cup of coffee, I am stupid with interest, or she has already kissed me on the lips.

    The one time in the past 10 years I rationalized away the kiss-on-the-lips test I was burned very, very badly. Comically badly. Epically badly. Simpsons show badly. I say goodnight with a proper kiss if I want a second date. If a woman likes me but won’t give me a chaste little kiss on the lips, she’s never going to hear from me again.

    This isn’t my rule, it’s one I learned from a 90′s dating coach named Doc Love, when I got divorced and was so stupid about the new planet I inhabited that I actually once invited a woman out for a weekday “breakfast date” — you know, because dating is just like business. (For some reason she flaked.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      All women turn their heads and give you a cheek if you are already in the friendzone.

      This is now a verb. “I cheeked him.”

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Re: men who are unicorns and supply responding to demand, and “different standards.”

    Which version of ADBG did better with women, and people in general:
    -The one honored for his virtue and good heart and gets pulled aside by his professors for extra training

    Or

    -The one where that gets told “guys like you are the reason girls are afraid to love guys!” or “I feel like everything you say is a lie” or “JAR!”

    Get what you reward :)

  • BuenaVista

    @98. Not to say it wouldn’t be very nice if a woman initiated once in a while. They just never do. A good way for a girl to signal interest would be to just cut through the fog: “Okay, I’m running inside now. I would like you to kiss me on the lips properly and call me in the morning.” The guy will go home and shop online for rings. But women don’t do that.

  • Marc

    I believe its easier for men to get an accurate MMV because women usually dont use men for sex. Women get theirs confused because higher value men will sleep with them for a night, or couple weeks. Again, who are the men committing to them?
    .
    A lot has to do with supply and demand in regard to pulling out of your league, or settling for someone of lower value. I just moved to Kiev Ukraine 5 weeks ago. This city has the highest women to men ratio in the world, and the most stunning women on the planet. An “L.A. 9″ is officially a “Ukrainian 7.5″. At 20 years old there are 116 women for every 100 men, and gets worse (better lol) every year. By age 80, it is 11 to 1. So I see average men with gorgeous women all the time here. Its comical, but because of the competition, thats the way it ends up.

  • Elizabeth

    JS,

    Don’t despair. Definitely do only dating, specifically e-harms for various reasons that I don’t feel like getting into.

    I’m not sure where you live, but I am in NYC and have two male friends in their late 30s, never married (not unusual around here), very sweet, smart, successful finance types who are both recently dating women with children and are excited about it. Both the women that they date are maybe around 38-40 with one child, 5 yrs old in both cases. In one case in particular I am pretty convinced that they are going to be married within the next year. Things move pretty quickly once a never-married 40 year old guy decides he wants to find someone. The guy in the imminent-marriage dating scenario is quite a bit more mature than the other guy Anyway, it can and will happen. Just date your own age and older – but not that much older as you said. It’s not going to be that crazy to a forty year old man that a woman his age has a two year old.

  • Anacaona

    Get what you reward
    We did ;)

  • J

    I may resign myself to being the “cat lady” with no cats, but I’m not dating guys in their fifties unless they are very youthful 50′s. I can’t see why I have to date someone 10-15 years older just because I have a child.

    I doubt that you do. I think you may find your biggest options among divorced men with kids, but I would expet them to be just a bit older than you are. OTOH, I’ve seen childless men marry divorced women with kids and then have one of their own with her. It’s less usual but it happens.

    If I am delusional, and the world is really that harsh, I can accept that,

    It’s not and you’re not. As a long-time lurker you probably have some view into the personalities of the people responding to you. Take that into account as you evaluate the responses you are getting.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’m not sure where you live, but I am in NYC and have two male friends in their late 30s, never married (not unusual around here), very sweet, smart, successful finance types who are both recently dating women with children and are excited about it. Both the women that they date are maybe around 38-40 with one child, 5 yrs old in both cases. In one case in particular I am pretty convinced that they are going to be married within the next year.

    I have been trying to keep my manosphere cynicism in check, but I’ve got to respond to this. I’ve seen this exact situation with two of my male friends, except it’s 10 years on for them. If you want to know where saying like “alpha fux beta bux”, “beta provider”, “AFC” and the like come from, it’s guys like these. They got taken for a ride by a single mother who acted so sweet sexy and loving at first. If they’re lucky they got a kid out of the deal. But things turn cold and sexless quickly enough. Eventually they end up handing over the bulk of their assets in divorce court.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    JS: I am 41 and a lifelong bachelor who for approx. two decades has alternated between player and serial-monogamist strategies depending on market conditions and opportunities. I am not sure how to rate my own SMV and probably should not venture down that road, but let’s assume for the point of argument that it is at a semi-decent level, at least in the superficial departments (psychologically I offer a host of problems and I am aware of this). So consider this one data point from a male POV.

    My message for you is one of cautious optimism. Based on personal experiences, I prefer to date women around my own age (say, 35+) if possible, and as a consequence have had to make peace with the fact that many will have had lives before they met me, divorces, kids, etc. I have had sex with women from a wider age range, but I generally won’t date them in a serious way because it ends up making me feel like a caricature (men have very different views on this—I also use a woman’s education as a secondary SMV input and I understand why a lot of guys don’t think that is wise).

    From my perspective, a working single mom is busy, and this frees me up to take care of my jobs, social obligations, and fairly demanding outside interests. A relationship fills a compartmentalized niche in my life and I am not particularly needy in terms of requiring much emotional support.

    I can ideally see my GF for a slumber party event during the week, perhaps meeting after I am finished with class for a late-night cocktail and sex, and then have regular escapist weekends. I basically want to extend the exciting and glamorous courtship phase of the relationship out into perpetuity, and I find that this goal often aligns with those of professional women who have busy, overcommitted lives. They have enough tedium to deal with and hopefully don’t sweat the small stuff, which I appreciate because I am gone all the time for work and hobbies, and I frankly refuse to compromise on many lifestyle elements that I have worked my ass off to cultivate.

    I enjoy being around kids because I myself am rather childish. It makes me a better person when I am put in potential role-model positions and have to live up to a child’s idealized ideas.

    I think that you should be screening in part for a man who is quite busy himself, either with work or with his own kids or both, and who thus emphasizes quality of time over quantity of time with his partner. This man could be single and available for good reasons (workaholic who spent 15 years building his own company) rather than, say, because A) he is a veteran SMP operator who is habituated to casual sex or B) he is just horribly unattractive to women.

  • Iris

    When discussing a man’s SMV, we are not just talking about looks. A man’s SMV is based on that which attracts a woman to a man, which is DIFFERENT than that which attracts a man to a woman.

    A man’s SMV takes into account his confidence, his wealth, his dominance, and his looks, etc. But the looks part plays a relatively smaller role.

    A woman’s SMV is based primarily on her looks, because that is primarily what men are attracted to. Of course, other factors also come into play too, such as warmth, kindness, etc, but to a lesser degree.

  • J

    in the manner that another commenter did above, explaining that (as though it were a weather report) her friend simply had to divorce the “narcissist” she was married to

    In this case, the man was so obviously a narcissist that both her divorce attorney and HIS OWN know it. Her attorney called him the worst ex-husband he had run into in over 25 years of practice. His attorney, who had been in practice for a similar amount of time, attempted to dump his client when he refused to follow legal advice and attempted to do the attorney’s job for him. Both attorneys are considered among the best in the city and are widely respected. He has also built up a wonderful reputation at the local police station as he calls them on a weekly basis with unsubstantiated neglect charges. The court appointed guardian at litem for the kids and a small army of psychologists concur that his behavior is highly problematic. My remark was not a quick toss-off. He is a diagnosed narcissist.

  • J

    Not to say it wouldn’t be very nice if a woman initiated once in a while. They just never do.

    I do. So do a lot of the women here.

    I jumped into my husband’s lap last night as soon as I heard my sons slam the door on their way out.

    Some women are shy, but IME most interested women who feel secure with a man will initiate some of the time.

  • Anacaona

    OT
    This a reality show I would watch:

  • HanSolo

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323582904578485041304763554.html

    Free speech also suffers a huge blow on campuses and the good, respectful guys will be even more hesitant to approach, ask out or escalate with a woman:

    The letter rejects the requirement, established by legal precedent and previous Education Department guidance, that sexual harassment must be “objectively offensive.” By eliminating this “reasonable person” standard—which the Education Department has required since at least 2003, and which protects the accused against unreasonable or insincere allegations—the right not to be offended has been enshrined in a federal mandate.

    The letter further states that campuses have “an obligation to respond to student-on-student harassment” even when that harassment occurs off-campus. In some circumstances, the letter says, universities may take “disciplinary action against the harasser” even “prior to the completion of the Title IX and Title IV investigation/resolution.” In plain English: Students can be punished before they are found guilty of harassment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      That is infuriating! I hope that WSJ article brings some attention to the issue. I’d love to see that go all the way to the Supreme Court. In the meantime, I’d be happy to see it become Obama’s fourth big problem.

  • HanSolo

    @J

    The context was about kissing on a first date and who initiates the first kiss.

  • Escoffier

    Off the top of my head, I can think of only one instance where I kissed a girl on the first date. In the case of my three most “successful” LTRs, I did not begin any of them that way.

    Beta!

  • BuenaVista

    Escoffier, sure, but the question is distinct. You’re not answering it.

    In your three most successful LTRs, which object of affection *refused* your first date kiss? Null set?

    No woman who wants to see a man again is going to refuse your basic 8th grade kiss. If she does refuse it, and then tells you she wants to go out? Freak/dissembler/manipulator. You are in trouble. You’re about to lose months of your life chasing a phony. Kiss the girl and see if you are in the mix or not.

    Well, a lot of women will give you the cheek, which is why you have to swear and kick the curb if you wanted it otherwise. Doesn’t matter. Her interest level is too low — you’re not even at the 8th grade level, in regard to her sense of your potential as a boyfriend.

    I *hate* the first date kiss drama, being a faux-extrovert and having been brainwashed for most of my adult life about how women and men are equally responsible for the nature of their relationships. (Why is it all up to me? Fuck.)

    The women I remember are the ones who make all this drama less stressful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (Why is it all up to me? Fuck.)

      The women I remember are the ones who make all this drama less stressful.

      Another gem for the women. It sounds like women who can relieve at least part of the burden will earn the undying affection of men!

  • BuenaVista

    Hans, Pilot-in-Command, #114.

    Beside the point. Your comment requires a close reading of what someone actually typed into the interwebz.

  • BuenaVista

    Hans, PIC, #114.

    P.S.

    Everybody knows crushing on a stranger in a public place and trying to figure out if she likes you is just like hanging out in the living room with one’s spouse.

  • J

    The context was about kissing on a first date and who initiates the first kiss.

    Few women, especially those who are relationship worthy, will do that. Most will feel it signals being desperate or prematurely DTF. Some men will find forward women to be too aggressive.

    A saavy man will look for signals that a woman is open to being kissed, like lingering by her doorway, enthusiastically thanking the man for the evening, expreessing enjoyment of the evening, looking hopeful that the man will ask for another date, leaning in for a kiss, etc.

    If a man isn’t seeing those signals, either he lacks perception or the woman is simply not interested.

  • J

    I actually once invited a woman out for a weekday “breakfast date” — you know, because dating is just like business. (For some reason she flaked.)

    The number one cause of flaking is not being interested and being too “polite” to say so in the first place. It’s the result of having second thoughts about going on a pity date or a date that the woman wasn’t too enthusiastic about in the first place (as in “Well, he seems nice enough, I should give him a try–but I’m not all that attracted.) A woman who flakes is probably giving the guy a break in the long run.

  • Hope

    Esau, those guys with virtue, you say they are married now? So is my husband. :p Why are people saying that virtue is really not wanted by women, particularly marriage-mind women?

    Besides that, it is no proof that virtue is not rare. Just because most of us here are intuitive on the MBTI, doesn’t mean it’s more common in the general population… which is overwhelmingly sensing folks.

    And I’m not saying that virtue is going to be selected to the exclusion of say, attractiveness. The same is true of men. They want a good wife material, a woman who has virtue but also good looks.

    Men who complain that virtue gets them no pussy… is that really virtue or is that just wolf in another skin? Referencing my sheep dog vs wolf analogy again.

  • Lokland

    @BV

    “No woman who wants to see a man again is going to refuse your basic 8th grade kiss. If she does refuse it, and then tells you she wants to go out? Freak/dissembler/manipulator. You are in trouble. You’re about to lose months of your life chasing a phony. Kiss the girl and see if you are in the mix or not.”

    I kissed my wife on a park bench on our first date. She looked so freaked out I was 100% positive I was getting charged with something.

    Asked her whats wrong, ‘never happened before, embarrassed in public.’

    ‘Would you like another?’

    ‘Yes.’

    OTOH, my first ex is exactly as you described. Crazy bitch. Only time I have actually been asked ‘do these pants make me look fat’ (pre-game days too bad).

    IOW, +1, the kiss test is reliable and easy. Much better than checking if her legs are crossed at a 94 degree angle towards you with belly button being pointed directly at you.

    @J

    “Some women are shy, but IME most interested women who feel secure with a man will initiate some of the time.”

    +1

    My wife initiates kissing fairly often. If she wants to get laid she either starts leading me by the hand towards the bedroom or just walks up and stands their and starts talking about sex in a very matter of fact tone.

    I cannot imagine being in a relationship where a woman was so disinterested as to not initiate kissing/sex. (however, I still initiate both far more often.)

  • J

    An “L.A. 9″ is officially a “Ukrainian 7.5″.

    That astounds me. There are loads of Russian and Ukrainian immigrants in my neighborhood. They seem to have their beauties and uglies in roughly the same proportions as everyone else. L.A. OTOH is a mecca for budding starlets.

    I also notice that the woman on the Anastasia Date commercial is significantly prettier than the women on the website who are in turn much prettier than my average Russian neighbor or her daughters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      An “L.A. 9″ is officially a “Ukrainian 7.5″.

      That astounds me.

      After my mother died, my father joined the Peace Corps and was sent to St. Petersburg for two years. He said he’d never seen so many beautiful 20 year olds. He also said he’d never seen so many haggard 40 year olds. Heavy drinking takes its toll, as does providing for families while feckless husbands drink all day. Most women have teeth missing by 40.

  • Sassy6519

    When discussing a man’s SMV, we are not just talking about looks. A man’s SMV is based on that which attracts a woman to a man, which is DIFFERENT than that which attracts a man to a woman.

    A man’s SMV takes into account his confidence, his wealth, his dominance, and his looks, etc. But the looks part plays a relatively smaller role.

    A woman’s SMV is based primarily on her looks, because that is primarily what men are attracted to. Of course, other factors also come into play too, such as warmth, kindness, etc, but to a lesser degree.

    I think that variance among individuals should also be considered.

    A woman’s SMV is much easier to ascertain, since the majority of her SMV is determined by her looks alone.

    For men, it’s a bit more complicated. It’s really rare for two women to agree on the appeal of most men. One woman’s “hot” can be another woman’s “ugly”.

    The only time I’ve witnessed near unanimous agreement on the appeal of a man is when the man in question was undoubtedly high SMV. I can remember several occasions throughout high school and college where almost every girl agreed that a certain small set of men were hot. I’ve witnessed many girls vying/competing for the attention of such men. In such instances, the man’s good looks accounted for most of the hoopla surrounding him.

    When dealing with men who have SMVs between 5-7, it’s a lot more murky. One woman may think that a man has a SMV of 7, while another woman believes that he has an SMV of 5. The difference in perception typically is a result of the variance in women’s individual weighted scores for different aspects of SMV. One woman may value confidence more than looks, so she gives the guy a higher SMV rating than a woman who values looks more than confidence. The middle range of SMV for males is very murky because personal tastes vary a lot among women.

  • J

    Off the top of my head, I can think of only one instance where I kissed a girl on the first date.

    That’s extrememly unusual. Even men who have no intention of asking for a second date will try for a kiss. I bet most of those women wondered what you though was wrong with them.

  • Hope

    ADBG, thing about supply responding to demand, is that you then end up with a woman you may not necessarily mesh with. For example, a guy pretends to be a big partier and loves going out, and snags a party girl. In fact he prefers to stay in and relax. Even if the big demand is for that sort of guy, by supplying it, he’s not getting the girl he might really click with, see what I mean?

    There is also the visibility of the other demand. The quiet girl’s demands are like little tiny whispers compared to the mega phone loud girls. Didn’t you mention this yourself talking about a girl you thought was girlfriend material, and your guy friends ignored her for the attention grabbing girl?

  • HanSolo

    @Susan 117

    Yeah, it seems like gov’t is being used lately to suppress conservative-leaning groups via the IRS and in colleges and to forward feminist-leaning groups, either directly or by the absence of intimidating tactics.

    I think men need to speak up but, even more, women do since they’re the ones that are perceived by many as victims and so there word carries more weight in speaking up for fairness on campus.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think men need to speak up but, even more, women do since they’re the ones that are perceived by many as victims and so there word carries more weight in speaking up for fairness on campus.

      Maybe I should write a post about that.

  • Sassy6519

    Not to say it wouldn’t be very nice if a woman initiated once in a while. They just never do. A good way for a girl to signal interest would be to just cut through the fog: “Okay, I’m running inside now. I would like you to kiss me on the lips properly and call me in the morning.” The guy will go home and shop online for rings. But women don’t do that.

    I prefer it when a man initiates the “first date kiss”. It lets me know that he is confident enough to escalate with me.

    If a man hesitates or doesn’t attempt to kiss me at the end of a date, alarm bells go off in my head. Those very same guys tend to ask for a second date, but my perceptions of them are typically muddied at that point.

    I can’t really put my finger on it, but it’s a distinct feeling of dissatisfaction. The guys just end up losing some value in my eyes, which is not a good thing. The guys that were willing to put themselves out there by kissing me, however, typically received more positive views after the dates.

  • Gin Martini

    J, Escoffier is likely a Roissy-beta, and you are showing a lack of experience with them. Good for you, it means you never had to deal with the losers.

    A Roissy beta (Vox delta) is risk-averse. He erroneously thinks women need more time to “be sure”, perhaps to the pathological point of letting the woman entirely do the escalation. Needless to say, it’s a horrible strategy.

    And let’s not even add bring Christian into that, which makes it even worse.

  • HanSolo

    I think some market segmentation may be of value for guys on whether to try to open-mouth kiss on the first date or not.

    If you’re out with a more forward woman like “Sassy” then go for it.

    If you’re out with a more reserved woman like “Bells” then you may want to hold off until the 2nd date unless she really shows enough interest. A chaste, 1-second kiss may still be in order.

    However, I wouldn’t wait beyond two dates.

    Also, the brief coffee date with someone you just met off the internet is more like 1/2 a date in my mind. I wouldn’t necessarily try to kiss her outside by her car unless she was showing some serious interest. However, on the next date that is more real then I would definitely kiss her.

    On one coffee date the girl showed so much interest that I took her up to my grad school office and closed the door and made out a lot.

    On another first date I went to kiss the girl but she turned her cheek while we were holding hands. However, we were on the way to her place to watch a movie and so we ended up kissing later and sexlessly sleeping together that same night.

    Back in my Mormon days, dealing with a restricted girl that had only kissed 2 guys ever, I didn’t try to kiss on the first date but did on the 2nd or 3rd and she eventually became my gf. She was the one that couldn’t get enough kissing and opened my eyes to realize that women actually like kissing (and by extension, sex) and don’t just do it to reward men as I had been taught on a lot of sitcoms and so on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think some market segmentation may be of value for guys on whether to try to open-mouth kiss on the first date or not.

      Seriously? Do people kiss today with their mouths closed? I don’t think I ever have. Not once.

  • Escoffier

    “loser” now, lol.

  • BuenaVista

    @130.

    I get it, you want the guy to be dominant. So do most women. Just understand that society, school, and pop culture — not to mention most women when they are speaking on the record, rather than speaking to what what they actually feel — have told that guy, for his entire life, that dominant men are pathological.

    This might be more of a problem for women than for men. Women should prefer than men act like men around women, instead of impersonating men in a dark room playing Call of Duty. But I can’t do anything about women who emasculate men and then regret the effects of that emasculation. For more information, ask yourself if Naomi Wolfe is telling the truth.

    At this juncture, an intelligent man will often wait for a permission slip in order to behave in a manner that women, and many men, find natural. That’s because one never knows when someone is going to wake up with buyer’s remorse and call the cops. Call of Duty is more fun than Sergeant Bozo, on a VAWA or false rape bust.

    My recent experiments suggest that women are quite longing for a man who simply states that he will be in charge in the private domain. So I get it: if I’m interested in someone, I have to risk the first-date humiliation of being rebuffed in a stupid kiss. I need to take every risk of escalation. This is profoundly stupid from a woman’s point of view, because as soon as the definition as to the nature of the relationship is ceded to the man, the woman can no longer assert a claim on its outcome. Women and men were smarter in the 1950′s, when the woman had more leverage than today: when there was no slut culture, and the man had an obligation that accompanied his superficial ‘dominance’. There’s a reason why Don Draper is *always* married.

    But it is quite wonderful when a woman helps out. ‘Helping out’ can mean: laughing when he can’t get out of work on time, or telling him how he’s supposed to escalate and then waiting for him to do it, or making him a sandwich, or telling him that he has the wrong barber. Women have lists of qualifiers (see JS), that are mostly negative, and we know that. Sure, he’s still ‘dominant’, but that’s beside the point: he can relax and trust that he’s with a friend, not a cackling cynic waiting to hit cntrl/alt/del. That’s the man who will throw you over his shoulder and exit the dining room, whether or not anyone is watching.

  • Sassy6519

    @ BuenaVista

    I have no idea about what sort of tangent you just went on. All I said was that I like it when a man is confident enough to initiate the first date kiss. If he doesn’t do it, he loses some value in my eyes.

    That’s all I said.

  • J

    @Sassy

    I have no idea about what sort of tangent you just went on.

    You just accidentally stepped in some issues. You thought you were expressing a personal preference, but you opened the door to a discussion of the unfairness of a guy having to risk potential embarassment ir rejection. You hit a sore spot unknowingly.

    ….likely a Roissy-beta, and you are showing a lack of experience with them. Good for you, it means you never had to deal with the losers.

    That’s interesting. I think of my experience as sort of average. Maybe not?

    As a young woman, I was sort of a more restricted Sassy in a lot of ways. I’m probably too intimidating to attract the truly risk-averse. My husband is a taker of calculated risks. He’s not reckless, but he’s not risk-averse either.

    I think I attracted more alpha jerks, whom I dislike than Vox deltas. DH as I’ve said before is a sigma.

    His approach to that first kiss: Move in for kiss, watch reaction. Kiss gently, assess reaction. Kiss less gently with closed mouth; assess. Kiss more insistently; assess. Open-mouthed kiss (without disgusting attempted to swab my tonsils with his tongue or slobber all over me.)
    Very nice. Assertive and demonstrative of desire without being pushy, gross or obnoxious. It’s a hard balancing for a guy. OTOH, desirous but not slutty is equally hard for a woman to demonstrate.

  • Anacaona

    . I bet most of those women wondered what you though was wrong with them.
    I used to think that my breath was awful. We restricted girls can be a mess of insecurities too, FYI.

  • BuenaVista

    @135. You’re right, that’s all you said!

    Never mind.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    “a guy pretends to be a big partier and loves going out, and snags a party girl. In fact he prefers to stay in and relax. Even if the big demand is for that sort of guy, by supplying it, he’s not getting the girl he might really click with, see what I mean?”

    Did this for awhile results were less than stellar.

    “Men who complain that virtue gets them no pussy… is that really virtue or is that just wolf in another skin? Referencing my sheep dog vs wolf analogy again.”

    Does this mean that an ugly but virtuous guy who wants to get laid because wanting to get laid is not virtuous?
    Wouldn’t that mean the hot guy that is getting laid is also not virtuous but just successful?

  • Lokland

    @mr WV

    “Sure. It’s really just adjusting one’s price to the market. But that may be a difficult adjustment for someone who has spent years compiling lengthy lists of the required characteristics of their future spouse!”

    Yup.

    I think one of the main disputes here is how long is an acceptable amount of time to figure out ones own value.

    10yrs? 5? 3? 1? months?

    I figured out my level at about age 17-18 and never bothered punching above it again.

    I have little sympathy for woman who take until 25 to figure it out.

  • JS

    Thanks to those of you for the encouragement that I’m not going to have to date my grandfather! I have a slight more bit of optimism now.

  • Gin Martini

    Esco,

    iPad typo killed my sarcasm. “us losers”.

  • Escoffier

    OK, as long as I have company, that’s cool …

  • Gin Martini

    JS, you sound like a decent woman. Ignore any taunting about being a loveless cat-lady, that’s either wishful thinking by the revenge-obsessed, or reserved for the truly batshit crazy. I don’t think having a kid will be such a huge deal, given your other advantages, and expectations.

  • J

    iPad typo killed my sarcasm. “us losers”.

    So, I take it your miffed at me for attracting the less risk-averse? Okey-doke.

  • SayWhaat

    I figured out my level at about age 17-18 and never bothered punching above it again.

    I have little sympathy for woman who take until 25 to figure it out.

    You don’t have to offer sympathy, nor am I saying you should. But the SMV of both men and women can change drastically from 18-25, and even beyond. I can empathize with those struggling to figure it out.

  • SayWhaat

    I used to think that my breath was awful. We restricted girls can be a mess of insecurities too, FYI.

    Storytime!

    I almost had my first kiss on a bridge across the River Arno in Florence. The moon was full and bright, we were the only two there. It was about the most romantic setting I could have ever imagined.

    I didn’t kiss him because my breath reeked of alcohol, my hair was gross because we had just emerged from a club…and my lips were chapped.

    Nothing happened after that. I lost him a few months later to another girl. I introduced them.

    If dating failures were the Olympics, I would get the gold.

  • Gin Martini

    Miffed? No. A compliment. Like a reverse-neg. :)

    Just stating that the experience of those at the high end do not mirror those at the low end, and that’s probably why you never seemed to encounter any men who might hesitate, or be unsure of themselves. It’s not that they don’t exist, just that you didn’t have to deal with the ones that do.

  • Gin Martini

    A long, closed-lip kiss? Never.

    I think Han meant no kissing at all. But a soft lip smooch is a good sign, and thats closed. Also, if she gives a lingering cheek kiss.

  • RealityBites.com

    OK, so you guys are fond of using economic concepts. I am an economist so I will give you the one that fits – Perfect Competition.

    Perfect Competition is the result of many buyers and many sellers of an identical or near identical product. The result is that the price paid for this product is just equal too or just over the costs to produce the product. Reader’s Digest version: what you are selling is the same as what everyone else is selling so the lowest price wins. Think of gasoline for your car. Gasoline is virtually the same where ever you buy it so why not look for the cheapest price.

    How does this apply to dating? Let me explain. What any given woman has too offer a bachelor is about the same as what any other given woman has to offer him. If he has been living on his own for any length of time, he already knows how to cook, clean, shop, decorate his home, and just about every other domestic task that any given women can do for him. He does not need a woman since he can do these things for himself to the degree that he thinks necessary. So please, no comments about how a women could do these things so much better – what he does works for him. If it did not, he would either hire a maid or find a wife.

    What does he need a woman for? The short answer is reproduction. Yes, he needs a vagina for that. The vagina is almost always attached to a woman – therefore, to reproduce he needs a woman. I will also add that in order to reproduce, he needs to have sex with this woman. This theoretical bachelor will find that he likes sex quite a bit so sex with his theoretical woman becomes a means to it’s own end – great way to pass the time!

    Aquiring this woman comes with a price. Like any intelligent being, the bachelor wants to get his woman for the lowest cost since he will need to date a few to find one that is thoroughly compatible with him (this is not included in the classical economic theory, yet is true all the same). Since roughly 50% of the worlds population is women, all vaginas are essentially created equal in his eyes. As long as the vagina is capable of reproduction, that vagina is in perfect competition with all the other vaginas on earth. Since all vaginas are basically the same, so are the women that they are attached to. The only thing that sets all of the worlds vaginas (and women) is the cost you pay to procure one. I would also add, this cost goes up substantially for American and other MDC women since they are very likely to divorce. This will cost our bachelor substantially if he is forced to pay alimony, child support, and half of his retirement. Therefore, the price he is willing to pay to procure a woman is even lower given the probability of divorce in his future.

    Remember that I pointed out earlier that 1/2 of planet earth’s population is women? In our modern world of the internet, cheap air travel, and global access to computers our bachelor can make his search for a woman global. The price he is willing to pay for an American or MDC woman is low – as established in the prior paragraph. The price he would need to pay for a LDC (3rd World) bride is lower still. And so is the probability that he will suffer a divorce as divorce is still taboo and, therefore, uncommon in many LDC’s. While we are on the subject of LDC women, please consider that thier SMV is high since they will most likely be young, very thin (from a life of food scarcity), and very, very willing to please thier American husband. They are living like virtual queens in this country – even on a modest income. I have seen several of my friends marry such brides and they have never, ever been happier.

    These LDC brides drop the cost of procuring a wife yet again since these brides can be had at the fraction of a price of an American or MDC bride. Our theoretical bachelor is a smart man of average to above average income. He would most likely approach procuring a bride like he would any other major purchase: he will shop for the lowest price. There are millions of men in the USA just like our bachelor. Additionally, there are millions of 3rd world women who want a better life. Therefore, the price of procuring a wife is low since the price millions of bachelors are willing to pay is low and the price that millions of 3rd world women are willing to sell themselves for is low. Since women are basically a commodity when measured by the millions (as our men), the price that any individual woman sells herself for does not matter. If her price is above the perfect competition price, she waits a long time for a buyer or does not get bought period. If she prices herself below the market price, she is a good buy and is scooped up almost instantaneously.

    Ladies, the cold, hard truth is that there is an enormous amount of competition for almost all American men. Even a lower income American bachelor is Donald Trump to a 3rd world woman. Your vagina, though very important to you, is just like every other vagina on planet earth – therefore not really that special. You guys can debate SMV and MMV all day long but it these concepts make little difference. Unfortunately, your value is determined by all of the other bachelorettes on the planet – most of them have functioning vaginas too.

    Not a pleasant way to view the world, but economics is often called “The Dismal Science” for good reason.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    RealityBites, would you agree that there is product segmentation in the Wife Market, and that higher SMV women can therefore command a higher “price”? Or do you feel that it has truly been commoditized to the extent that vaginas are fungible global goods?

    As an aside: something I think we should add to this discussion is consideration of the effects of porn on the sexual marketplace. I personally become ambivalent about sex with a real woman vs. recreational porn use when facing a mating prospect of approx. SMV 6. Above that level I would prefer a real woman (and would be willing to commit more and more of myself to seduction and courtship efforts), but below 6 I would prefer a private fap and virtual date with, say, Brooklyn Chase. With porn there is less energy/resource expenditure involved and the non-trivial risks of STD or “Oops!” pregnancy or status destruction if my dalliance becomes publicly known, etc. are also much lower.

    Is this new “floor” created by porn availability a widespread phenomena…?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    In the meantime, I’d be happy to see it become Obama’s fourth big problem.

    Yes, I’ve studied the ’72 presidential campaign period in some detail over the years. IF American voters knew everything that was going on in the Executive Branch before the election, on Election Day, I seriously doubt the incumbent president would’ve been reelected in 1972. Or 2004. Or 2012.

  • RealityBites.com

    @Bastiat Blogger,

    The evidence supports my theory that vaginas are now a commodity. Look at all the unhappy, unwed, and childless American women. They try/are trying to sell thier vaginas above the Perfect Competition price and have no buyers.

    Vaginas are now a world wide commodity thanks to the internet. They can be purchased cheaply from China, The Philipines, Malasia, India, or any other 3rd world country. American women seem to forget this: vaginas are cheap for American men! SMV and MMV exist only in the heads of American women.

    Vaginas are cheap now days. Don’t pay more than you have too:)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Look at all the unhappy, unwed, and childless American women

      There are actually hardly any of these. Admittedly the ones that do exist are high profile, having written best sellers and all.

  • doomwolf

    @ SW #148

    Some anecdotal evidence from my generation: in my grade 9 English catch the discussion with the teacher came around to dating once, and there was brief informal poll. The girls voted 2 for and 12 against it being OK for a girl to ask out a guy, whereas all 7 of us boys said that it was perfectly fine by us. We’d have all been about 14 at the time IIRC, so possibly the numbers would shift a bit for people in their 20′s, but somehow I think things would come out similarly.

  • Sassy6519

    Uh huh……..yep.

    (Yawn).

  • Anacaona

    Some anecdotal evidence from my generation: in my grade 9 English catch the discussion with the teacher came around to dating once, and there was brief informal poll. The girls voted 2 for and 12 against it being OK for a girl to ask out a guy, whereas all 7 of us boys said that it was perfectly fine by us. We’d have all been about 14 at the time IIRC, so possibly the numbers would shift a bit for people in their 20′s, but somehow I think things would come out similarly.
    Guys here are divided in this issues I will think at least half of them say that they want the IOI’s but don’t want to be asked out because is a turn off. Some others say that if a woman approaches she will never know if the guy liked her enough to approach and making it too easy might gain her a guy that is not that into her and is only with her because she is easy and convenient.
    While the other half think its great. I love shy guys and after eons waiting for one of them to approach I realized that waiting out will leave me single and childless so I decided to make the first move and it worked well for me. In fact I don’t think my husband would had took the risk of meeting someone so far away if not for me messaging him first. So… dunno if you like the shy type like me I guess asking out would be good? Also if you had spent a huge amount of time waiting for approaches and getting nothing, taking the initiative seems to be better than just wait around for a miracle, YMMV.

  • Liz

    @Jackie

    I observe that many people view virtue as a hindrance to “getting ahead” and so it’s usually the first thing to go. It gets a lot of lip service, but is rarely carried out with the unspectacular courage it requires.

    So true. I’d say expediency wins over morality nine times out of ten. And we justify it in many ways. “Well, all else being equal, X is the right thing to do. But then I’d have no chance at Y…” etc. What’s that saying? “Virtue is doing the right thing when no one’s looking.”

    In many ways, religious people can be extremely confusing in this regard. They can be some of the biggest talkers/littlest doers of them all. They can be awesome at pontificating but many can be rather lame in execution.

    Ha, the only soul you can save is your own.
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201304/talkiswalkism-the-problem-believing-everything-you-say

  • robber

    Interesting post Susan and it’s triggered a good discussion too. The assessment of SMV is something that I have given some thought to especially since arriving in the world of San Francisco. I have always thought of myself as “average” SMV. Average looking, average personality, able to attract average women. Yes probably higher than average intelligence but that doesn’t seem to have much to do with SMV.

    One point I didn’t expect was that moving to an “exotic” location could bump up one’s perceived SMV (and MMV?) by maybe 1.5-2 points. Since arriving here I was getting a lot of interest from women who wouldn’t have looked at me twice when I was at university. Miss California, the new(ish) GF, is probably an 8 in the looks department (hard to be objective when you’re in a relationship!) whereas I’m guessing I’m more like a 6.5-7. I find it hard to believe just being from elsewhere and having an “exotic” accent has done the trick.

    The only other angle I can guess is being a widower with a young son. As you mentioned previously it’s “preselection without the fail”. And as my dating pool was women 30-35 that seems to have made a significant difference. Interesting that being a single parent has such perceived differences on SMV/MMV for men and women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @robber

      One point I didn’t expect was that moving to an “exotic” location could bump up one’s perceived SMV (and MMV?) by maybe 1.5-2 points. Since arriving here I was getting a lot of interest from women who wouldn’t have looked at me twice when I was at university.

      Don’t forget, a man’s SMV often does increase in the ten years after university, especially if he’s a STEM type, which you are, IIRC. Judging from college pics of my husband, his SMV went up a solid three points during that time, as he filled out, his features became more masculine, etc. Plus, he developed a lot of confidence during those years. So you’ve probably gotten closer to an 8 than you think.

      The only other angle I can guess is being a widower with a young son. As you mentioned previously it’s “preselection without the fail”. And as my dating pool was women 30-35 that seems to have made a significant difference. Interesting that being a single parent has such perceived differences on SMV/MMV for men and women.

      Yes, I was thinking of this during the discussion yesterday. I think widower with a child triggers the “rescue” urge in women, plus gives them an outlet to display and enjoy nurturing behavior early on (as directed toward the child). This will not be as true I don’t think, with a divorced man. Similarly, I believe a widow would pay a lower penalty in the dating market than a divorced mom.

  • sassy6519

    @ robber

    From what I have witnessed, American women typically really like foreign men, especially if the men in question are originally from European countries. It’s something about the slight cultural differences and accent that are just really attractive.

    As far as personal preferences go, I find a lot of Italian, French, English, and Australian men to be very attractive. I’d say that my biggest international crushes would be on men from Ireland and Scotland. I find the accents from those areas to be super sexy. I also find red hair on men very attractive, and those areas seem to have a high rate of that trait.

    I’m not surprised that your SMV is higher in America, as a foreigner. Foreign men are often viewed as more attractive because they appear well cultured and exotic to us. I’m glad to hear that you are enjoying your time here. :)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    If we’re going to think of sex/marriage/love in terms of a market, let’s at least recognize that it’s a highly segmented and niche-y market, more like houses or books than gasoline or coal.

    Indeed, even “commodity” markets generally involve buying criteria other than price….you may happily pay a few more cents per gallon at gas station A to avoid making a left turn against traffic into gas station B….and if you’re buying electricity at the wholesale level, you’re going to pay a LOT more for the very same megawatt-hour if you need it at 6PM on a hot summer afternoon than if you need it at 5AM on a nice spring day.

    There are certainly attributes of one’s SMV/MMV that matter to *all* (or almost all) potential mates, but there are also a lot of factors that will make one’s value much higher in one context than in another.

  • Jonathan

    robber:

    The only other angle I can guess is being a widower with a young son. As you mentioned previously it’s “preselection without the fail”. And as my dating pool was women 30-35 that seems to have made a significant difference. Interesting that being a single parent has such perceived differences on SMV/MMV for men and women.

    Conversely, being a never-married middle-aged guy is a significant negative for relationship MV. And being a never-married 40+ woman is even worse, especially if the woman is physically attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Conversely, being a never-married middle-aged guy is a significant negative for relationship MV. And being a never-married 40+ woman is even worse, especially if the woman is physically attractive.

      Yes. These scenarios and divorce all raise questions about the person’s ability to choose wisely, form healthy attachments and maintain a relationship. It is possible that someone has just had a run of incredibly bad luck, but even that is not very appealing.

  • Liz

    @wavveector

    But that may be a difficult adjustment for someone who has spent years compiling lengthy lists of the required characteristics of their future spouse!

    Gawd, I remember doing that… :-( This was before you could meet people online, so we used “personal ad” magazines and to a lesser extent networking.
    I’d sit there alone or with friends, jotting down a laundry list of traits: good-looking, athletic, educated, financially & emotionally stable, great sense of humor, tall (I’m 5’10″), Caucasian, age range, and on and on. I saw these “filters” as some kind of colander that would dip into the ocean and let the silt and sand fall through, and catch only the biggest, brightest gems (according to me, but my standards were similar to others) for my perusal. I’d have a ready-made list of near-perfect matches. Yeah, right.
    I look back and wonder, Who the hell did I think I was? Of course real people were going to fall short (or I’d fall into the short-term clutches of a want-to-remain-bachelor, being naive & all that).

    I also didn’t realize I needed to develop my character a bit. If you’d asked me about things like honesty, loyalty, and reliability, I would probably have shifted uncomfortably and changed the subject.
    With so much growing up to do, my attempts to date went predictably wrong. I remember the later 1980s as a sort of moral vacuum, and nature took over. While by the grace of god I didn’t get an STD or a stalker, I ended up with a “high number” and marriage to someone who turned out to be a near-sociopath.

    So I second Susan’s advice and add that you need to frankly assess your inner characteristics as well. As author Scott Peck wrote, “Check your basement.”

  • Jonathan

    David:

    There are certainly attributes of one’s SMV/MMV that matter to *all* (or almost all) potential mates, but there are also a lot of factors that will make one’s value much higher in one context than in another.

    Yes.

  • BuenaVista

    @realitybites.com

    “What any given woman has too offer a bachelor is about the same as what any other given woman has to offer him. If he has been living on his own for any length of time, he already knows how to cook, clean, shop, decorate his home, and just about every other domestic task that any given women can do for him.”

    So, in the matter of the commoditization of vaginas, this is quite ridiculous, unless one agrees that the highest and best use of female companionship is a vagina.

    The fact is that as soon as a female cohort graduates from their peak SMV years (peaking at about age 25), they are not just offering sexual access, they are forcing it in one’s face. It’s basically free, and men aren’t the cause. This serves our economist’s trope on commoditization, but it also assumes men have the same interest at 40 that they do at 18, which is dominated by the desire for mere access to sexual activity.

    Where it breaks down is if we drop the metaphor for a moment and look at cars. All cars, that start, deliver a commodity activity: they deliver one from point a to point b at minimum speed. But they have radically different value to different activities and experience. For some reason, I’d rather drive something from Stuttgart than a crappy econobox from India that costs less. Now, when I was 16, I didn’t care if I was driving a shitbox with 65 horsepower. Today I want something more than base utility. I believe that this is what BB is saying in #155.

    Put another way, when I am driving alone cross-country I either stay at a Motel 6, or I sleep in the truck at a rest area. Paying more for the base utility of a bed and a hot shower, to me, but not getting the exquisite benefits of a night at the Carlysle or Hay Adams, is stupid. We could continue in this vein if we look at restaurants, clothing, or other baseline human needs. Realitybites.com would have us believe that female value is the equivalent of jeans from (Bangladesh and) Wal-Mart versus ABC jeans. BB is saying that if he has a choice between the female equivalent of ABC jeans, and some Wranglers from Wal-Mart, he’ll probably just stay home with the *idea* of ABC jeans. This is where BB breaks the realitybites.com model.

    It’s ironic that it is feminism that has commoditized the female presence in one’s life. ‘We’re all same so deal with it’, feminism says, often in regard to men not dating their age-peers. (Feminists have a tendency to reduce men to sperm-wells.) Well, women, like men, are not all the same. I’d rather date a 911 than a SuperDuty. I use my truck to haul construction materials, I use my Volvo to weed out the golddiggers and haul my bicycles, and my 911 to feel fortunate and free. But they all go from point A to point B, don’t they (they all have a motor and the ability to go 55.) If women didn’t, in their obeisance to feminist doctrine, commoditize their own virtues, they’d have a better understanding of how the world actually works.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      I googled Brooklyn Chase out of curiosity and was immediately struck by the fake appearance of her boobs. Sure enough, 32DD, in the half grapefruit style. I guess we now know your type.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      An interesting thought that women are a commodity because their only value is reproductive, and all women have vaginas. If that were true, they wouldn’t be able to make a man’s life miserable, would they? Impregnate the wrong woman, and you will pay, oh yes.

      I recommend this two-pronged approach if reproduction of your genes is your primary aim, with recreational sex into the bargain:

      Real Doll + sperm bank

      A Real Doll is only $6,000, and never talks back or poops. She’s maintenance free, aside from the occasional douche with your backyard hose. She’s perfectly content wearing the same outfit every day, unless you want to see her in a variety of sexy getups, in which case she’ll happily comply with your every wish. In fact, the man who loves a good porn fap might combine the two!

      As a sperm donor, if you qualify as possessing “superior genes” (medical student?, gorgeous face?, Ivy League education?) you’ll even make a little money. Over several years, this should bring the cost of your precious Real Doll to zero!

      What woman could possibly compete with that?

      (Disclaimer: This has the added benefit to women of taking sociopathic, agentic males off the market, so I do not profess indifference. If for some strange reason this strategy does not appeal, your expatriation is definitely our second choice.)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, you have to admit that Brooklyn does have a surprisingly innocent looking “girl next door” appearance for a pornstar!

    I wonder if a woman could filter for certain traits by asking a guy who his favorite “go to” pornstars are? I submit that this could in fact give her valuable info. You have:

    1. The Liar. (“I don’t watch porn. Those women are gross.”)

    2. The Aging Football Hero. (“Brooklyn Chase”).

    3. The Asian Fetishist (Asa Akira, various Japanese AV stars, lots of hentai)

    4. The Addict (“Well, that’s a tough question! On Tuesday nights, it is vintage Jenna, but Wednesday I like to visit one of the new girls over at Brazzers. Thursday is my private Skype date with this Colombian camgirl; I am learning Spanish via Rosetta Stone so that we can communicate better. Friday morning I treat myself to…”

    5. The Girl-on-Girl Specialist (“I only like the lipstick lesbian stuff. Say, have you ever kissed a girl—and liked it?”)

    6. The MILF Specialist (“Julia Ann”)

    …and so on. It could be illuminating, I suppose, since in theory a man’s porn watching habits would be indicative of true revealed preference rather than market constraints.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It could be illuminating, I suppose, since in theory a man’s porn watching habits would be indicative of true revealed preference rather than market constraints.

      I”m not sure how useful that would be. Should an Asian woman seek an Asian fetishist? Does that imply a healthy relationship dynamic? I think I’d prefer to see a man’s choice of me as indicating his revealed preference.

      I think there’s probably also a weak link between fantasy and what one wants for “everyday.” For example, of all porn, I find gay male porn the most arousing. Obviously, this says nothing about my real revealed preference, other than 2 dicks are better than one for fantasy.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan 151

    “Maybe I should write a post about that.”

    I think that it would be good. If people (and I assume it will be mostly men being accused) can be accused of sexual misconduct without any objective or “what a reasonable person would interpret” standard then it gives power to those (hopefully few) that would use it and discourage men from interacting with women and you’ll just get even less of the respectful guys not wanting to bother women.

    I think that two aspects are important for women to act on:

    1) At the personal level, make it clear to men that they will not make any baseless charges.

    2) Speak out and act to remove such unfair policies.

    Though it may not be consciously intended this way policies like these serve to promote the Tom Brady SNL effect, of only the attractive and high status men being able to approach women (since the lesser men fear being reported for any perceived sleight) and the psychopathic men approaching since they don’t care about consequences or think they can get out of them.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan 152

    Well, the closed or open mouth wasn’t meant to be the focus of my comment, or whether the mouth is literally open or closed. Rather, the timing of when a more involved and passionate kiss should be attempted.

    The main point is that if it’s going really well and she seems more adventurous go for it on the first date.

    The 1st coffee date after meeting on the internet may or may not reach that level and I don’t think guys should go into them thinking they need to try and smooch her right outside of Star Bucks (or whatever more creative coffee house is chosen). I would count these as half a date and so if you can extend the coffee date to something more like walking around the lake then that would become a whole date and the guy could go for it.

    And more restricted types (like Bells example where she didn’t let the guy kiss him but ended up bf/gf) should be discerned so that the guy doesn’t come off too pushy.

    I would guess that with the average and unrestricted crowd the guy should go for the kiss once full date/outing status is reached while with restricted girls it would be better to wait for the 2nd date unless she is showing obvious signs of interest.

    Finally, I think that the man needs to learn to read the woman better and roll with the punches. He can flirt and test the waters to see how responsive she is without needing to fully plunge into the deep end without knowing if the pool is empty or not.

    Finally, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I had a 1st date where I cuddled and flirted and she kind of responded. Maybe I should have just kissed her but I felt she wasn’t ready (who knows, maybe my imagination).

    However, on the 2nd date we went to a park and kissed and then she invited me over to help install her window A/C and we had sex. According to the kiss on the first date or you’ve blown it theory that 2nd date wouldn’t have happened.

    I think the more fundamental rule at play is that the guy needs to take the risk of 1 step beyond where he perceives her comfort level to be at and see how she responds. The guy needs to escalate just beyond the current level of things and also take a step back every so often and let her “pursue” for a little bit too and not feel the pressure of the wolf breathing down her neck. Taking 3 or 4 just to satisfy some “rule” will rarely end well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the more fundamental rule at play is that the guy needs to take the risk of 1 step beyond where he perceives her comfort level to be at and see how she responds.

      I agree, this is a good male strategy.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, that’s an excellent point and a logical consequence of these laws. Men will be less willing to approach unless the men are being blatantly invited to by the women (high SMV males), are PUA types (habituated to taking these risks), and/or are borderline-to-full sociopaths (different amygdala structure; do not process risks the same way a normal person would). The most resistant of all would be the high SMV sociopath with a suite of PUA-type skills—hopefully M is able to keep him busy by dispatching him on dangerous missions.

    Divorce laws have created even more perverse incentives. What is happening now is that those high-earning-potential young men who want to get married are, IME, basing their mating MMV calculations on the potential wife’s SMV + Earning Power, and insisting that she “Lean In”—i.e., demand that she forgo the SAHM option in order to pursue an exhausting, possibly depressing life on the corporate ladder.

    This is an almost inevitable result of the “equitable distribution” POV used by the family law courts, and their view of the marriage as a simple economic community (with 50/50 asset distribution in the event of partnership dissolution, meaning that the imputed contribution of each partner is capitalized to be worth 50% of the assets owned by the partnership).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      This is an almost inevitable result of the “equitable distribution” POV used by the family law courts, and their view of the marriage as a simple economic community (with 50/50 asset distribution in the event of partnership dissolution, meaning that the imputed contribution of each partner is capitalized to be worth 50% of the assets owned by the partnership).

      Recently Charlotte Allen, a journalist of some repute, commented here on divorce laws. I was astounded – in the sense that I have been led miles astray by taking manosphere comments at face value – raped in divorce court, stripped of all his assets, etc.

      Here’s what she said:

      “Here are some generalizations about divorce law (I am not giving legal advice, of course):

      The principles of community property apply in most states. That means that anything earned or bought with earnings during the marriage is the property of both spouses. They’re not “his” assets; they’re marital assets. But if your rich uncle hands over his millions to you or leaves them to you in his will, whether before or after you got married, they’re all yours. Anything you earned or bought with earnings before you got married is all yours, too. So–the split in half applies only to marital assets.

      The idea is that marriage is a partnership to which both parties contribute, whether in money, time, being a gorgeous trophy wife, or whatever. If your wife spends her days shopping with your credit cards and lunching with her gal-pals on your dime, you probably married her because she was cute, bewitching, ultra-cool, impressive to your friends, or fun to be with. So you got what you paid for. All the bad traits that spouses display after they get married are already there before they get married. People don’t change.”

      What is your understanding of equitable distribution? And if you do not think it is equitable, why not?

  • Jonathan

    Susan:

    Conversely, being a never-married middle-aged guy is a significant negative for relationship MV. And being a never-married 40+ woman is even worse, especially if the woman is physically attractive.

    Yes. These scenarios and divorce all raise questions about the person’s ability to choose wisely, form healthy attachments and maintain a relationship. It is possible that someone has just had a run of incredibly bad luck, but even that is not very appealing.

    After a certain age most people who aren’t coupled fall into one or more of your categories, though there are exceptions. This alone is a strong reason for both men and women who want to get hitched to do so younger rather than older, if possible.

  • Anacaona

    I wonder if a woman could filter for certain traits by asking a guy who his favorite “go to” pornstars are?
    I actually did asked my husband who was his favorite playmate when we were dating. This was his answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_S%C3%B6derberg
    Where do I sign!? :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, I see your point. Where porn use *might* be interesting would be as a forecast for future vulnerabilities in the relationship. What follows is pure speculation…

    For example, if a man always turns to big-boobed, bronzed blondes (or “4Bs” in SEALspeak, as I recall from my former life) when he wants to get off to porn, and his GF *is* in fact a big-boobed, bronzed blonde, I would submit that his vulnerability to mate poaching could well be lower than you would expect if a man turned to the same 4B archetypes for his fantasy world faps but was dating, say, a pale brunette with A cups in real life.

    The question might well be asked what the second man’s resolve would be like if he was ever hit on by a 4B type. Perhaps the second GF has nothing to worry about because there is little chance of this happening, but it could be a different story if her man was very high SMV and the woman knew that she faced legit competition from mate-poachers and alpha trophy hunters and the like.

    On the other hand, the guy could truly want one type for fap material and a completely different type for a GF; maybe they are in separate compartments. I still think that the flat-chested brunette of the second example should be very, very wary if her BF is a high SMV male with a strong porn preference for 4Bs. I think she would be able to feel more secure in the relationship if his porn fantasy templates were women who looked a lot like her.

    Thoughts…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      would submit that his vulnerability to mate poaching could well be lower than you would expect if a man turned to the same 4B archetypes for his fantasy world faps but was dating, say, a pale brunette with A cups in real life.

      I wonder why this man would commit to a woman who is so far from his physical ideal. If he’s not attractive enough to lure his preference, he’s probably not a candidate for mate poaching. If he is, why would he date someone with none of the features he finds attractive?

      I still think that the flat-chested brunette of the second example should be very, very wary if her BF is a high SMV male with a strong porn preference for 4Bs.

      To be honest, I would be wary of any man who had a “strong porn preference.” That would raise questions in my mind, and I imagine it would set off alarm bells for a restricted woman.

      Personally, I would not like my relationship partner choosing porn over sex with me – I suspect this is a common problem that brings couples into counseling.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Ana, your husband’s Playmate choice is classy. I feel so crass and unsophisticated in comparison.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    BB,

    This is sex; it is a base instinct and I don’t see men rationalizing their attraction to flat chests when they really like big breasts. You have men who date women with not so hot faces but great racks just because that is what turns them on.

    Also, most men like big breasts so stating that preference is not really a decisive clue for women. If a guy keeps having sex with a flat chested women and actually enjoys it, it simply means that his preferences are not that rigid and that several triggers work for him.

    Also, porn preferences are irrelevant today unless they really touch on something weird/disturbing or extreme like fetishism or golden showers and so forth. It is a fantasy and it would have to be someone really out of touch with their own preferences to not realize that they should go after what they really like sexually.

    It really says something about our society when we prefer to turn to porn rather than connect with another human, even below our standards. I guess we are getting close to what’s already happening in Japan.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Mireille, I understand your point and I guess it is indeed sad in some ways. I think that the more disturbing aspect of porn use occurs when a guy would rather fap to porn than to try to be with a woman of his equivalent SMV. This is sort of similar to hypergamy, I suppose—a man views so much porn that he no longer considers normal-looking, non-exaggerated women to be really attractive, even though he himself is normal-looking.

    What do you think of the idea that a Latina girl dating a man who has a strong preference towards Asian women in his porn habits is at greater risk of a mate poach than is a Latina girl dating a man who has a strong preference towards Latina women in his porn habits? Too simplistic, or do you feel that there may be something to this in terms of female intuition?

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    BB,

    I think it just means that the guy likes exotic women, and God knows there are tons of them, actually any woman that is not of your race is considered exotic, right? So, to me I don’t see that as a threat per se as long as the guy knows not to have the real world and his fantasy world collide, meaning, he tries to cheat on her with Asian women, or try to make his woman behave more in an “Asian fashion”/makes overt comparisons about both types of women. This to me would be the last drop.

    I’m also not sure that porn is a determining factor in understanding mate poaching risks. Most guys try and date who they’d like to have sex with. They’re willing to compromise on other factors granted their sexual triggers are pulled, unfortunately for them in some cases.

    The fact is mate poaching risks exist on their own, it just takes one woman, regardless of her race/hair color. The risk is there, it doesn’t really matter if it gets a 10% increase because the woman is asian/latina/black or whatever. Any female is the enemy at that point.

    In other words, this is one of the reason I do not want to know specifics about men’s porn preferences because it might reduce the guys to disgusting weirdoes when in fact it gives them an outlet to filter their sexual behavior. You can fuck the rainbow and the attached unicorn but when we’re together, let’s keep it clean. Sorta…

  • BuenaVista

    @ PIC HS:

    “Finally, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I had a 1st date where I cuddled and flirted and she kind of responded. Maybe I should have just kissed her but I felt she wasn’t ready (who knows, maybe my imagination).

    “However, on the 2nd date we went to a park and kissed and then she invited me over to help install her window A/C and we had sex. According to the kiss on the first date or you’ve blown it theory that 2nd date wouldn’t have happened.”

    Negative. The test is this: if she will let you kiss her on the lips, you are > minimum interest level. The algorithm is not: no kiss attempted, no interest. You don’t know if she would have rebuffed your first-date kiss, because you punked out. According to events, she wanted one but you didn’t give her one. Given that she invented a household task in order to boff you in the afternoon on the second date, I think the probability is 99.999% she would have let you plant one. And invited you over to her house to fix the A/C (yeah, right) straightaway, instead of testing you first on a park bench.

  • RealityBites.com

    @Susan.

    I really do not see how the sex doll concept is relevant to our discussion her since a sex doll cannot reproduce. But, it is your blog so I will humor you.

    What you fail to address in most discussions about SMV and MMV is competition. You cannot use economic models to explain human behavior without including the fundimental concept of competition. If you encourage a minority of women to play “hard to get” while the majority of women do not, this minority will find themselves without men since the men already ‘bought’ their women at a lesser price. Additionally, American women are competing with women from all over the planet – many of them from 3rd world countries. The result: even more competition for eligible men.

    American women are, by far, the best educated and most productive. So what? Men do not marry women for thier educations or productivity. They marry them for reproduction, domestic tasks (so we can focus more on work), and companionship. If a woman works as many hours as her husband, is not home to care for the house, and does not have the time or engergy to reproduce she is not a spouse – she is competition. Men do not want competition in thier personal lives, they want utility. Such a woman has not utility and, therefore, has little value. The “Ivy Leaguer” in your example would not choose a woman of such diminshed value.

    If you are going to use economic theories to explain mating behavior (which they are not designed to do), please include the whole theory including the obviously unpopular concept of competition for males.

    So the new penalty for disagreement with a feminist is expatriation? Wow! this is a new twist. And you guys wonder why we prefer foriegn woman…. I think you just demostrated why, Susan. Thanks for making my point:)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Reality Bites

      I really do not see how the sex doll concept is relevant to our discussion her since a sex doll cannot reproduce. But, it is your blog so I will humor you.

      No need to humor me.

      You stated that women with vaginas are a commodity that serve two functions: reproduction and as a “sleeve” for recreational sex. You also proposed ways of acquiring a vagina at low cost – by traveling to the third world. Still, acquiring a “live” vagina is still a very expensive proposition. Once you reproduce, those expenses mount, even in a country where most people are poor.

      I assume you do not plan to parent your offspring, since children thrive with two loving parents, by definition one cannot “fall in love” with a commodity, as it has no distinguishing or unique features.

      My Real Doll + sperm bank strategy is cost effective, does not require converting to a low standard of living, and has the added benefit of not producing children you can’t hope to father well.

      What you fail to address in most discussions about SMV and MMV is competition. You cannot use economic models to explain human behavior without including the fundimental concept of competition. If you encourage a minority of women to play “hard to get” while the majority of women do not, this minority will find themselves without men since the men already ‘bought’ their women at a lesser price.

      I address competition all the time, including in this post. Most men are not indifferent to non-vaginal female features, including face, body, intelligence and temperament. Women can and do compete for men on the basis of their own attraction cues. I’ve never recommended “playing” hard to get. (In fact I’ve shared that what men want is for women to be hard to get in general, but easy to get for them.) A female 10 is hard to get, because she has many options to choose from. A female 6 is hard to get for a male 4, and so on.

      Additionally, American women are competing with women from all over the planet – many of them from 3rd world countries.

      I don’t believe this is true. I’ve seen the occasional article documenting this practice, and the men generally have low SMV and represent a tiny minority of the male population. I’d be interested to see any statistics you have re the prevalence in the male population of this strategy.

      American women are, by far, the best educated and most productive. So what? Men do not marry women for thier educations or productivity.

      This is not true. Men almost always marry women with similar education to themselves. Among the educated, mating is still strongly assortative. In fact, in the U.S. marriage is net hypogamous – more marriages with women of higher education than the reverse. The male Ivy League graduate prefers a fellow Ivy Leaguer to anyone else – hence the proliferation of social groups like “Ivy Plus” and several dating sites for graduates of very select schools.

      So the new penalty for disagreement with a feminist is expatriation? Wow! this is a new twist. And you guys wonder why we prefer foriegn woman…. I think you just demostrated why, Susan. Thanks for making my point:)

      I thought expatriation was a pleasure, not a penalty. Go with our blessing. Not because you disagree with me, or anyone here, but because you do not have the ability to love a woman, and men with such avoidant attachment styles (yours is the most extreme I’ve ever seen described) are a risk to women.

      P.S. I do not believe you are an economist.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    …then she invited me over to help install her window A/C and we had sex.

    Well, excuse me for a moment, I need to go break something in the apartment…

  • BuenaVista

    What’s interesting about a women’s blog that discusses porn are the insights that are offered as universal.

    One is that the females comment only on male interest in specific body archetypes. As though men are in dopamine nirvana because they’re looking at a great body. (Newsflash: this was high school.) Well, golly, I’ve never watched any porn, but a friend of mine suggests that it’s fun to watch porn in which women who like sex actually have active sexual *skills.* Perhaps this is why Susan likes gay porn: the best book on male sexual satisfaction is written by a gay man, and more women (like, 98% of them) should read it.

    Your average ‘good girl’, iow, has exactly 3-5 skills in her repertoire. Multiply by 50 years: “Honey, I’ve just got to put another coat of shellac on this wing rib I finished today. Then I’ll sweep up and dismantle the mitre saw and clean it. I’ll be up later.”

    A second one is that “most men” are slaves to 2 of the 4 Bs. Oh rerry? Sasha Gray would beg to differ. (I don’t know who Sasha Gray is, but my friend says she won’t have breasts tickling her navel in 10 years.)

    There’s more, but because I have never seen a porn skit I lack the credibility to discuss this matter with any authority.

  • Anacaona

    Ana, your husband’s Playmate choice is classy. I feel so crass and unsophisticated in comparison.
    I mentioned that to him. He found it amusing
    One of the things you need to take in account is what kind of man are you talking about. Here many men had said they don’t have boners for women they wouldn’t want to have sex with. So if he is the type that is very dead set on what he likes then of course dating someone completely different is a red flag but some men do have a separation between fantasy life and real life. So that is part of the concept of getting to know each other. That being said if the man has 100 porn DVD’s depicting women with huge buttocks and you are derriere flat. I will say don’t even think about it, YMMV.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ Reality Bites,

    I think you are the one who didn’t clearly explain whether “reproduce” meant just sexual access or having children. You reduced women to “vaginas” and therefore Susan took you to your own word. She simply offered solutions according to your position.

    The fact is competition does exists, we talk about it quite a lot here, for men and women, however it is not in reductive terms such as “vaginas” because this is not the main criteria men look at when pairing up, contrary to your belief. Some men have said earlier that they themselves are quite particular about the “vaginas” they pick and not just “any” would do as posited in your commodity theory. American still prefer american women because they are the women they can relate the most to, culturally and emotionally. They still share a LOT and these women are still their best choice/option any way you look at it. So all these tales of foreign women are moot, because even american women like foreign men as well, so it just means humans like foreign stuff.

    I know it was an attempt at reducing coupling at a pure utilitarian purpose but this doesn’t stand. Men don’t need women to survive just like women don’t either (at least in this part of the planet) so there are definitely other reasons why men and women couple up.

    As a foreign woman, I’d say that “fantasy” about the docile foreign woman is overrated. Even if they demand “less” than American women and are more in touch with domesticity, they also see and despise the consumerist/self-centeredness/entitlement of the regular american too. I see waste around all the time, selfish attitudes and total lack of accountability that are part of the culture and is considered “normal” behavior; when you add to that lack of dominance and extended teenage, most american men don’t make the cut either. You have to consider that foreign women are used to much more dominance than american one, so this can turn into a disaster real fast, considering it is already an observed disaster here in the US.

  • HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    Han, that’s an excellent point and a logical consequence of these laws. Men will be less willing to approach unless the men are being blatantly invited to by the women (high SMV males), are PUA types (habituated to taking these risks), and/or are borderline-to-full sociopaths (different amygdala structure; do not process risks the same way a normal person would). The most resistant of all would be the high SMV sociopath with a suite of PUA-type skills—hopefully M is able to keep him busy by dispatching him on dangerous missions.

    State-enforced hypergamy.

    Whether the woman wants it or not.

    Divorce laws have created even more perverse incentives. What is happening now is that those high-earning-potential young men who want to get married are, IME, basing their mating MMV calculations on the potential wife’s SMV + Earning Power, and insisting that she “Lean In”—i.e., demand that she forgo the SAHM option in order to pursue an exhausting, possibly depressing life on the corporate ladder.

    This is an almost inevitable result of the “equitable distribution” POV used by the family law courts, and their view of the marriage as a simple economic community (with 50/50 asset distribution in the event of partnership dissolution, meaning that the imputed contribution of each partner is capitalized to be worth 50% of the assets owned by the partnership).

    I think the 50/50 split should definitely be changed. If feminists are truly about fairness and equality (big IF ;) ) and not just a resource grab then they should support distributions more aligned to what you contributed, with some consideration given to sacrificing career to raise kids.

    This article was cited by mr. wv a little while ago:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2321531/We-fought-equality-So-greedy-wives-sponge-ex-husbands.html

    A self-proclaimed feminist writes:

    In these days of equal education, opportunities and access to professions, women are still humiliating themselves by expecting (and receiving) huge and continuing settlements when a marriage ends.
    I consider myself a feminist, but I don’t see why today’s divorcing women should expect any kind of settlement at all.

    What on earth is wrong with earning your own living and standing on your own two feet? If modern marriage is an equal partnership, divorce should be the same, surely, with both parties getting out what they have put in, as when any other type of contract ends.

    I agree that future UMC males are starting to take into account much more the wife’s earning power, both for the money enjoyed during marriage and probably to a lesser extent to mitigate the risk of a divorce wipe out.

    I think that the huge divorce settlements of, for example, Paul McCartney to Heather Mills or Madonna to Guy Ritchie are ridiculous and unfair. No way did those recipients do anything to help create any sizeable portion of that wealth and so they shouldn’t get much of it. The laws need to be changed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that the huge divorce settlements of, for example, Paul McCartney to Heather Mills or Madonna to Guy Ritchie are ridiculous and unfair. No way did those recipients do anything to help create any sizeable portion of that wealth and so they shouldn’t get much of it. The laws need to be changed.

      I don’t find it very useful to discuss the divorce settlements where one party is a performer who makes many millions of dollars per year.

  • Sassy6519

    I wonder if many American women really care whether or not certain subsets of men prefer foreign women or not. If they don’t care, using threats of dating foreign women/expatriation will be useless, since the threats will fall on deaf ears.

    I personally don’t care who a man decides to marry. If a guy must go outside of the US to find a partner, more power to him. Most likely, that guy wasn’t on my radar/wishlist to begin with. It’s of no loss to me, honestly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I wonder if many American women really care whether or not certain subsets of men prefer foreign women or not. If they don’t care, using threats of dating foreign women/expatriation will be useless, since the threats will fall on deaf ears.

      I have literally never heard a woman mention it, or even a man for that matter, outside of the manosphere.

  • RealityBites.com

    @Mireille

    Two things:

    1. Many American men do not make the cut because they were raised in single family homes headed by their mothers. They were never taught to be men. The marriage and reproductive rates are falling in America and other MDC’s. Your argument about chosing a mate from one’s own culture falls flat since we are not observing it in the real world.

    2. My comments was addressed to Susan. She is a smart woman who can deal with my assertions directly if she does not agree with with them.

    I suppose that since I have disagreed with you, you will call for my expatriation also?

  • Marc

    @Susan Walsh “After my mother died, my father joined the Peace Corps and was sent to St. Petersburg for two years. He said he’d never seen so many beautiful 20 year olds. He also said he’d never seen so many haggard 40 year olds. Heavy drinking takes its toll, as does providing for families while feckless husbands drink all day. Most women have teeth missing by 40.”

    True. I think its because they are ALL thin, and no fat in the face is not good for aging. We all know after 37 a woman needs to choose between her face and body. Colombia, Argentina, and U.S. have all been bumped down the list for the most attractive women. This place is like the Twilight Zone. Men have no idea that a place like this exists on this planet.

  • Ramble

    Great post.

    One minor quip.

    1. Achieve and maintain physical fitness.

    You should encourage girls to be sexually attractive, not physically fit. You will think that this is only semantics, but it is an important distinction.

    ESPN has been showing the Cross Fit games recently and I saw tons of girls who were physically fit, and masculine.

    And it is not an isolated thing. As far as I can tell, half of the “get fit” products that are marketed to women have fairly masculinized females in their videos.

    And there are other things that come along with the idea of being physically fit over being sexually (or physically) attractive. Girls cutting their hair short because it gets in the way of their running/training.

    Hips become de-emphasized because they are their to sway, not to jump.

    Clothes change to enable, or highlight, the activeness of the girl over her attractiveness.

    And an added aggression to their personality.

    Now, I am not saying that all f these things happen to all girls who emphasize physical fitness over physical attractiveness, but, in it’s aggregate, it is what I am seeing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      You should encourage girls to be sexually attractive, not physically fit. You will think that this is only semantics, but it is an important distinction.

      Be more sexually attractive is not actionable advice. I don’t think “be thin” is good advice. I believe that women (and men) should strive for fitness. If you don’t like the masculine look, seek a woman with lower T. The masculine look is very popular with men, though – models, including VS models, have become much more androgynous in recent years.

      Girls cutting their hair short because it gets in the way of their running/training.

      Every woman knows men prefer long hair, and every woman is free to choose her own hairstyle. If she doesn’t like the results she’s getting, she can change it. I reject the idea that women owe men long hair, or anything really, related to appearance.

  • JP

    “He also said he’d never seen so many haggard 40 year olds. Heavy drinking takes its toll, as does providing for families while feckless husbands drink all day. Most women have teeth missing by 40.”

    I see this day in and day out in the United States.

    It’s my clientelle.

  • HanSolo

    @BV

    I realize the test is to see her level of interest at that moment. The issue is whether her interest will always be high enough after 1 date to invoke the kiss test then or if there is a sufficiently large % of women that would not respond favorably to it at date 1 but would later on. And, the flipside, of how many women will be turned off by not going for a kiss on the 1st date.

    If always attempting the kiss on date 1 only excludes a few later-bloomers then it would be a good rule. I personally think that it’s a good loose rule to have but to adjust it with maybe 1/4 of the women I go out with to wait a bit longer.

    I don’t know exactly but I think I’ve kissed about 300 women over the last 10 years and so I generally have it in mind to escalate on the first date but I try to guage their interest as well.

    As to the A/C girl, on the bridge overlooking the river, I kind of stood behind her and massaged her shoulders as we talked and then I later wrapped my arms around her. She let me do it but gave off a bit of a frozen body language like she wasn’t sure if she was into it or not. Perhaps I could have attempted to kiss her but the body language just didn’t seem receptive so I held off. This was an N=2 girl prior to me although she was actually very sexual and vaginally orgasmic, as I later discovered.

    I think that she wasn’t so sure about the cuddling in that moment but the escalation stuck with her and she thought about it between the 1st and 2nd date and had decided in her mind that she wanted to take it to a higher level. And I actually did install the A/C, which was conveniently in her bedroom, and once that was done we turned it on and tested its effectiveness by raising the temperature ourselves.

    At one point I was fingering her g-spot and she had a powerfully-contracting orgasm on my finger. I wasn’t touching her clit at all. For some women, the g spot can really work well, I have found.

  • HanSolo

    I disagree that all women are just vaginas and of equal value. I much rather prefer the vagina of a woman who is beautiful, sultry, intellectually curious, compassionate and fun over that of one who is not.

    I do agree that there is some international competition amongst women but travel expenses and other issues restrict the amount that it happens.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    Two things:

    1. Many American men do not make the cut because they were raised in single family homes headed by their mothers. They were never taught to be men. The marriage and reproductive rates are falling in America and other MDC’s. Your argument about chosing a mate from one’s own culture falls flat since we are not observing it in the real world.

    LOL, I don’t think you even understand what you’re writing. Are you familiar with assortative mating? Most people in the world and therefore america marry people from their own culture and of similar economic background. A very group has the luxury to marry out of their country and that is true everywhere in the world to the extent that is a studied phenomenon because it is seen as atypical.

    2. My comments was addressed to Susan. She is a smart woman who can deal with my assertions directly if she does not agree with with them.

    Your example was meant to be read on this blog, otherwise you’d have sent a private email, no. Don’t be glib! I disagreed and pointed the weakness of your argument, don’t take it personally.

    I suppose that since I have disagreed with you, you will call for my expatriation also?

    This statement speaks more about your vision of dialogue. I can disagree with you but not want you to expatriate. However, it looks like it is something you yourself is considering so suits you. If you decide that it is beyond your capacity to reinvent yourself in order to find a woman in america, the world is your playground.

  • HanSolo

    Of course this calibrating to women in when to kiss or when to have sex, etc. is coming from somewhat of a frame of the woman being the prize, which is the natural order of things for women under 30.

    A better male strategy is to up his value and also develop a more sincere devil-may-care attitude and do whatever he likes (hard to do for most in practice). Then he goes for the kiss when he wants to, or doesn’t, and the woman will still like him, as long as he is following the fundamental rule of seduction (aka the Tom Brady SNL rule where you can do whatever the hell you want):

    Be attractive (to her).

  • RealityBites.com

    “If you decide that it is beyond your capacity to reinvent yourself in order to find a woman in america, the world is your playground.”

    Thank you for making my point for me. American men are not going to reinvent themselves to suit you. We are not going to deal with you strictly on your terms, according to your rules of engagement. If American women are unwilling or unable to listen to what American men want, we we (and already do) seek women abroad. The world truly is our playground. Competition for us is fierce.

    With global competition, American women no longer control the market for sex and relationships (if they ever truly did). Now would be a great time for American women to listen to American men – not simply throw demands and conditions at them. But it is, afterall, your choice what you do and how you behave. Feel free to import 3rd world men to fulfill your needs too, if you feel the need. I am sure that many of these men will be open to feminist ideology.

    Ultimately, the choice is yours. You can either listen to what we are telling you and act on it or continue on you present course. Either way, you do not control the dialogue or the market any longer. Competition is fierce and the benefits always flow to the best competitor – another truism of economics.

    Thanks for not trying to expatriate me…you should really speak to Susan.

  • Sassy6519

    With global competition, American women no longer control the market for sex and relationships (if they ever truly did). Now would be a great time for American women to listen to American men – not simply throw demands and conditions at them. But it is, afterall, your choice what you do and how you behave. Feel free to import 3rd world men to fulfill your needs too, if you feel the need. I am sure that many of these men will be open to feminist ideology.

    Why would we import men from 3rd world countries when we have the ability to travel abroad to 1st world/industrial countries and snag a guy there? As I said in an earlier comment, I don’t think too many American women would balk at the opportunity to date men from many European countries. Lest we forget that there are also single men in those countries, including men who aren’t very successful with women from their own countries. These “average” European men would most likely receive a boost in SMV when dealing with American women. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that an “average” European man probably has a 1-2 point higher SMV than the “average” American male. We even have some anecdotal evidence to this by ways of Robber’s comment.

    Ultimately, the choice is yours. You can either listen to what we are telling you and act on it or continue on you present course. Either way, you do not control the dialogue or the market any longer. Competition is fierce and the benefits always flow to the best competitor – another truism of economics.

    So, basically it’s “You wimmmenz better do what we tell you, or we will go after foreign women instead!!!”.

    It should be clear to anyone why such sentiments aren’t exactly making the panties of American women wet with desire.

    As I said earlier, I don’t think that many American women care whether or not a subset of American men go abroad to find mates. If you want us to care, provide a more convincing argument or incentive. The threat of losing men to foreign women, not to mention that the majority of these men are not the type that we desire very much to begin with, doesn’t hold much sway.

    Try again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It should be clear to anyone why such sentiments aren’t exactly making the panties of American women wet with desire.

      Seriously.

      The threat of losing men to foreign women, not to mention that the majority of these men are not the type that we desire very much to begin with, doesn’t hold much sway.

      Not to mention the questionable strategy of seeking a mate offering “utility” and domestic labor so “I can work more.” No American woman in her right mind would be tempted by such an offer.

      Go east young man! Middle and Far East!

  • JS

    I think one thread I find confusing on this blog is that some men seem to break relationships/marriage into purely financial terms. I live in a metropolitan city where it is very common for husbands/wives to make the same amount of money. I was always the breadwinner in my former marriage. There seems to be so much fear expressed about having to “take care” of a woman financially, or be subjected to paying alimony, have their assets taken, etc, but I don’t see much of that around my way . . . it’s much more equivalent households . . . which would mean that people must be choosing and treasuring someone based upon their actual, human value (as it should be).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think one thread I find confusing on this blog is that some men seem to break relationships/marriage into purely financial terms. I live in a metropolitan city where it is very common for husbands/wives to make the same amount of money. I was always the breadwinner in my former marriage. There seems to be so much fear expressed about having to “take care” of a woman financially, or be subjected to paying alimony, have their assets taken, etc, but I don’t see much of that around my way

      And that is only going to increase. I wonder if men will still be bitching when they earn less and are the ones seeking alimony.

  • RealityBites.com

    Sassy.

    LOL…you are funny. I see no reason to “try again” to restate myself . I done stated my case and you guys proved my point.

    I would point out that one cannot use emotional arguments to win a logical, factual debate. Just FYI.

    Thanks for everything…it’s been informative.

    Have a great Saturday!

  • Sassy6519

    I would point out that one cannot use emotional arguments to win a logical, factual debate. Just FYI.

    Um, the only fact that you stated was that some American women date foreign women. I don’t think a single woman has contested that.

    We also agree that global competition exists. Once again, we have not contested that. The only thing I’m asking is whether or not many American women care or not.

    I done stated my case and you guys proved my point.

    Was the point that American women could care less whether or not men like you chase after foreign women? If that is the point, then the answer should be obvious. I don’t see many women on this blog jockeying for favor of men like you. You might as well not exist. That is how much value you have to us.

    Troll harder next time.

  • Sassy6519

    *Edit*

    The only fact that you stated was that some American men date foreign women.

  • Ramble

    Obviously, this says nothing about my real revealed preference, other than 2 dicks are better than one for fantasy.

    If that were the case then you would also be watching pron where girls are getting double teamed. And I am guessing that is not the case.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If that were the case then you would also be watching pron where girls are getting double teamed. And I am guessing that is not the case.

      No, two dicks are better than one, no vaginas please. What more could a straight woman want?

  • Ramble

    Look at all the unhappy, unwed, and childless American women

    There are actually hardly any of these.

    Well, there are a lot of unhappy, unwed women in America (i.e. high divorce rate). And, if you interpret this to mean “I am 30 and not married and I need to find a man and have a baby pretty damn soon (to fit my script)”, then, you could say that there are a lot of them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, there are a lot of unhappy, unwed women in America (i.e. high divorce rate).

      Since 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women, I think we have to assume they’re happy. Indeed, research shows that divorced women see a big hike in happiness after the marriage ends.

      And, if you interpret this to mean “I am 30 and not married and I need to find a man and have a baby pretty damn soon (to fit my script)”, then, you could say that there are a lot of them.

      I believe this happens, but women don’t go out and marry Joe Shmo. They still try to find a high quality man. Those who fail, e.g. Kate Bolick, are more likely to resign themselves to singlehood, IMO.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    Well, there are a lot of unhappy, unwed women in America.

    How many, approximately? Opinions aside, how does one measure something like that with any accuracy?

    And in the spirit of keeping things real: How many with a college degree fit that profile?

  • BuenaVista

    Sassy,

    You’re annoyed and it’s showing.

    But here’s what you’re missing:

    High status male has a choice for Saturday night date:

    a. Russian or French woman who works at the World Bank. Has a waist. (FMI, Carla Bruni.) (Carla Bruni is married to a 6.)

    b. American woman who was a Baker Scholar and works at an investment bank. Too important to have a waist. (FMI, Hillary Clinton.) (HC is married to a guy who hasn’t slept with her in at least 20 years.)

    Russian/French woman, who is a 7 in Moscow and a 9 in DC, man knows, wants to be with a man who acts like a man, knows who Bulgakov is, and won’t die at 54 of acute alcoholism. The only test is, “Do you know who wrote Master and Margarita”? Says, “I’m not going to Cafe Milano, it’s a joke and most of the women are wanna-be escorts. Let me make you an omelette at home.”

    American woman, who is a 7 in DC and invisible in Moscow, man knows, wants a man who acts like a man, except in public, such as here, when he must act like a poodle honoring feminism’s various contradictions, while passing the 57 tests of fitness that an American man must pass. She says, “Let’s go to Cafe Milano, people will see us, you’re paying, woo-hoo!”

    Tough choice?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      I guess high status males must choose American women most frequently. I can only think of one high status guy who married a Russian – Peter Orzag, and he’s an ugly bore. No Frenchies come to mind either.

      What am I missing?

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    The idea is that marriage is a partnership to which both parties contribute, whether in money, time, being a gorgeous trophy wife, or whatever. If your wife spends her days shopping with your credit cards and lunching with her gal-pals on your dime, you probably married her because she was cute, bewitching, ultra-cool, impressive to your friends, or fun to be with.

    That may be how it is now but it’s not how it should be. Marriage should not mean an equal split of acquired assets during marriage upon divorce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Marriage should not mean an equal split of acquired assets during marriage upon divorce.

      Why should marital assets acquired during a partnership (the terms of which are clear from the start) not be divided evenly? Legally, marriage is a 50/50 partnership. How would you change the law, practically speaking?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    The laws need to be changed.

    On account of wealthy celebrities in the U.K.? That’s an odd tree (across an ocean on another continent) to be barking up…

  • Mireille

    I don’t think we’re missing the point; the fact is there is no point. Men of high value ALWAYS have more choices, in their country and internationally. This is a fact and is not discussed. What is being questioned is the position that this reach is open to all men and I don’t think that is true. Very few men are able to get those foreign brides, at least for the moment.
    A guy with high value can get any woman he wants; since he doesn’t have difficulties finding partners, unless he has one of these strong preferences, he doesn’t really have to go out of his way or country to get females.
    It is those who do not possess this facility and are even failing at attracting females of their own caliber who might see foreign brides as an option. Like Sassy said, why should women care about the activities of a segment of males in which they have zero interest and do not even consider as potential partners?
    If you’re a woman who likes dominant and very successful men, you won’t really care what a shy accountant does and who he dates; threatening women about the potential exodus of these category of men doesn’t register. Unfortunately, like Lokland usually say they are basically invisible to these women and you can’t really worry about something you do not see.
    The good thing is most women in America like american men, rich or poor, hot or not, just because they have similar cultural background so all this hypothesizing is useless in my opinion.
    As I said earlier, most of these foreign women just end up bossing these men around anyway because they are used to tougher men. So in the end, these guys will end up in the same situation they were trying to avoid by marrying abroad. If the goal is not to divorce but remain married with a wife that might be compatible, well that sounds like a great plan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Throughout history, expatriation has been largely a function of limited opportunities at home, and has been undertaken with much regret. It means separating from family, friends, and home. Diaspora has never been something people aspire to. American women assume, with good reason, that a man expatriates because he has limited opportunities at home. It’s de-selection.

  • Mireille

    Should have read “might not be compatible”

  • Sassy6519

    @ BuenaVista

    Yes, I’m annoyed by overly-dramatic stupidity. Call it a character flaw, if you must.

    Anyway, your analogy is a bit off, if I must say.

    1. Not all Russian/French women are like Carla Bruni.

    2. Not all American women are like Hillary Clinton.

    3. Carla Bruni married Nicolas Sarkozy, a good looking man who was also the 23rd president of France. He is not a 6, in any sense of the word. He is a solid 8 or soft 9. That makes their SMVs roughly equal, and it makes their union assortative.

    4. I’m going to call it like I see it by saying that I highly doubt that the likes of the average American male could pull a woman like Carla Bruni. Going oversees does not automatically make one attractive. Like I said earlier, I don’t begrudge men who seek foreign brides/prostitutes/dates/whatever. What I am saying is that I highly doubt such small scale relationships have enough power to sway American female thoughts/behaviors on a large scale. I also highly doubt that a significant amount of men will seek brides oversees for a multitude of reasons.

    @ Mirielle

    Like Sassy said, why should women care about the activities of a segment of males in which they have zero interest and do not even consider as potential partners?
    If you’re a woman who likes dominant and very successful men, you won’t really care what a shy accountant does and who he dates; threatening women about the potential exodus of these category of men doesn’t register. Unfortunately, like Lokland usually say they are basically invisible to these women and you can’t really worry about something you do not see.

    Exactly. The exodus of such men barely registers on the average American woman’s mind.

    @ Susan Walsh

    I don’t believe this is true. I’ve seen the occasional article documenting this practice, and the men generally have low SMV and represent a tiny minority of the male population. I’d be interested to see any statistics you have re the prevalence in the male population of this strategy.

    I thought expatriation was a pleasure, not a penalty. Go with our blessing.

    Seriously guys, go if you want to go. Nothing is stopping you. If you expect a big overture on the part of American women though, clamoring to keep you guys here, you may be surely disappointed methinks.

  • Mireille

    What some of these disgruntled men threatening of exodus don’t get is that women have internalized competition so much they are not really sensitive to more pressure. Unfortunately when it comes to mating today, women compete even more against each other, their best friends, their mothers or daughters, that waitress over there, multiple pornstars, etc… There are so many threats already that adding another one to the pile doesn’t make a difference. Past a certain threshold of fear and anxiety, people don’t react anymore, they’re numb. This is how most american women who’d feel.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mireille

      What some of these disgruntled men threatening of exodus don’t get is that women have internalized competition so much they are not really sensitive to more pressure.

      That’s actually a brilliant insight. Female intrasexual competition is fierce already. Now we’re supposed to start worrying about Latvians?

  • Ramble

    It’s remarkable – I guess Mom and Dad tell them this, but I don’t understand why real market results don’t convey the reality.

    Susan, this is maybe the first time I have heard you reference this reality (although, I am guessing that you have and I simply have not read it).

    The other day I was watching a Manhattan real estate show and a pregnant realtor (say, 7 months in) walks into this gala to schmooze with the bold and beautiful and one of her acquaintances walks up and immediately says, “OMG, you are so beautiful”.

    Now, I completely understand and appreciate the glow of a pregnant woman. But, I felt, this was one more example of (so many) girls needing to hear, and therefore say, they they are beautiful.

    And, if she is feeling dumpy and ugly and conveys as much at work, there is almost always some lonely guy or whiteknight willing to tell her how beautiful she is.

    We see variations on that in tons and tons of movies and tv shows. Yet, when was the last time you saw a guy tell a girl that she needed to lose 15 pounds to look more attractive?

    Our culture, at the behest of girls and their feelings, has made definite changes in how we, either, feed their ego or, at least, not detract from it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I’m surprised you would equate pregnancy with being overweight. That’s um, fairly twisted, IMO.

      Many people think pregnant women glow – all the hormones I guess.

      My husband thought I was incredibly sexy when I was 8 months pregnant. I felt like a cow, but just the sight of my belly got him going.

      Yet, when was the last time you saw a guy tell a girl that she needed to lose 15 pounds to look more attractive?

      Seriously? You stop by here once a month and you’re going to use your time riding that old hobby horse?

  • zupans

    Oh Susan.

    If you were only smarter, or perhaps more perceptive. You and you feminist ilk completely missed the point of all contributing men…specifically those who disagree with you. Who cares what the manginas think. American men are fed up with America women and they are trying to communicate that…it is falling on deaf ears. I see a silent civil war in the future with lots of single women paying a steep price for the feminism of their mothers and grandmothers.

    Feminists have become like the Borg of Star Trek…assimilate or die.

  • Ramble

    But if your rich uncle hands over his millions to you or leaves them to you in his will, whether before or after you got married, they’re all yours. Anything you earned or bought with earnings before you got married is all yours, too. So–the split in half applies only to marital assets.

    Yes, and then Spousal Support (i.e. Alimony) can then be “adjusted”.

    The idea is that marriage is a partnership to which both parties contribute, whether in money, time, being a gorgeous trophy wife, or whatever. If your wife spends her days shopping with your credit cards and lunching with her gal-pals on your dime, you probably married her because she was cute, bewitching, ultra-cool, impressive to your friends, or fun to be with. So you got what you paid for. All the bad traits that spouses display after they get married are already there before they get married.

    For any man who did not quite understand what she was saying there, let me translate: “If you got raped, you deserved it.”.

  • Ramble

    I wonder why this man would commit to a woman who is so far from his physical ideal.

    Susan, I am consistently surprised when you say things like this (which means that I should change my expectations). But, as you know, we are fatter, on average, then we have ever been. And I know that you see frumpy, and dumpy, and mildly overweight girls walking around with boyfriends.

    Do you really think that those guys were looking at pictures of mildly overweight girls online before they started dating?

    So, why is he dating her then? In short, loneliness.

    For so many people, being with someone is better than being alone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      That’s nonsense – it was a small pale brunette with A cups. If Bastiat meant to imply she was fat, he can say so. That was not my understanding of his point.

  • Mireille

    We see variations on that in tons and tons of movies and tv shows. Yet, when was the last time you saw a guy tell a girl that she needed to lose 15 pounds to look more attractive?

    Should it also be socially acceptable for women to tell men that they need a bigger wallet/ penis or to be less short to be attractive? I don’t know how rude one can be.

    Most women already get that message on their own; they don’t need some random guy telling them to lose weight. I can understand a husband or bf who, having a serious stake in the appearance of his partner would make such demands. But from a random guy, no thanks.

  • Ramble

    Every woman knows men prefer long hair, and every woman is free to choose her own hairstyle.

    I agree.

    I reject the idea that women owe men long hair, or anything really, related to appearance.

    No, she doesn’t owe him anything. But, she is making herself, in general, less attractive to men and, possibly, to her current or future man.

    There is something quite modern to that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No, she doesn’t owe him anything. But, she is making herself, in general, less attractive to men and, possibly, to her current or future man.

      Yes, true. Personally, I think women should aim to make the pool of potential mates as large as possible. Choosing a style or look that men find unattractive is obviously not going to achieve that.

  • Ramble

    No, two dicks are better than one, no vaginas please.

    Thats an addendum. I was just following your logic.

    Since 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women, I think we have to assume they’re happy. Indeed, research shows that divorced women see a big hike in happiness after the marriage ends.

    This logic is confusing.

    It may make sense that a woman exiting a bad marriage is happier than she was in that bad marriage. But the idea that she is happier in her current divorced, single motherhood scenario than she was in her previous single state is, well, interesting.

    However, that doesn’t mean that you are wrong.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the idea that she is happier in her current divorced, single motherhood scenario than she was in her previous single state is, well, interesting.

      No one claimed that. I’m just arguing that not all divorced women are unhappy. I think there are some happy divorced women.

  • Ramble

    Choosing a style or look that men find unattractive is obviously not going to achieve that.

    And moving to that style AFTER you have met someone is even worse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And moving to that style AFTER you have met someone is even worse.

      Tell me about it! I fell in love with a guy who had long wavy hair, funky glasses and the softest old jeans ever. Then I woke up one day to find a man with short hair, conservative tortoise shell glasses, and a navy pinstripe suit!

      Not fair!

  • Ramble

    That’s nonsense – it was a small pale brunette with A cups. If Bastiat meant to imply she was fat, he can say so. That was not my understanding of his point.

    I am not sure what you are replying to.

  • Ramble

    I’m surprised you would equate pregnancy with being overweight. That’s um, fairly twisted, IMO.

    I wasn’t.

    But, IMO, her comment was obviously in the vein of, “OMG, you are so sexy”.

    Hey, maybe I was wrong, but that was my take. And it was the very first thing she said to her. It was just an example of how where our culture is now and how different it is from the not too distant past.

    Many people think pregnant women glow

    Yes, and I am one of them. I said as much.

    You stop by here once a month and you’re going to use your time riding that old hobby horse?

    Well, I did feel it was appropriate to the post, which is why I added it. But, I didn’t mean to cause problems.

    Still, good post.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    For any man who did not quite understand what she was saying there, let me translate: “If you got raped, you deserved it.”

    Godwin alert! How any man, beyond those who’ve been to prison, can appreciate actually being raped, I’ll never understand. Doubly so for men who’ve never been married and divorced.

    The metaphor’s akin to saying someone’s a “casualty of war”, despite never having been in the military.

  • Mireille

    For any man who did not quite understand what she was saying there, let me translate: “If you got raped, you deserved it.”.

    Well, it’s true. Just like when a woman like to date flashy douches, she should expect to get burnt. Gotta take some responsibility for your choices at some point.
    Unfortunate the law doesn’t decide who is the best choice for you to marry, otherwise there would be very few divorces, judging by the conservative character of the judicial institutions. If you get “raped” you pay for your bad choice, that’s it, just don’t let that define you. There is more to life than this.
    It actually reminds me of a joke: ” I said I wanted a ‘hot redhead’ but you sent me a ‘hot airhead’”

    Choose carefully!

  • Ramble

    Should it also be socially acceptable for women to tell men that they need a bigger wallet/ penis or to be less short to be attractive?

    I have said it before and I will say it again, our experiences are not analogous.

    There is now male equivalency to female pregnancy and birth.

    Female bullying and male bullying are quite different and not analogous.

    Our desires and experiences are, in general, very different. Sure, we all care to have good lives and good families, but, guys and girls are definitely different.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Why should marital assets acquired during a partnership (the terms of which are clear from the start) not be divided evenly? Legally, marriage is a 50/50 partnership. How would you change the law, practically speaking?

    Why? Based on the simple principle of fairness that whomever earns something should have greater right to it upon dissolving the partnership.

    It should be changed from a “partnernship” that allows unequal economic input but equal claim to assets acquired during marriage upon divorce to one where you get out the percentage that you put in, with perhaps some additional amount attributable to sacrificed earning due to raising children.

    This would of course change the incentives for the lesser earner to be much less favorable to end the marriage because they would get much less out of it.

    You keep stating what marriage is but that has no bearing on what it should be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Han Solo

      It should be changed from a “partnernship” that allows unequal economic input but equal claim to assets acquired during marriage upon divorce to one where you get out the percentage that you put in, with perhaps some additional amount attributable to sacrificed earning due to raising children.

      Perhaps? Be aware that you are strongly disincentivizing women from spending any time at home with children. If your preference was to become law, it would be in a woman’s best interest (and also a man’s) to maximize personal earnings without any sharing or pooling of resources. For a woman to stay home with children would be extremely costly to her personally, possibly even leaving her destitute in the event of divorce. So a high-earning male, say in consulting or investment banking, or an entrepreneur, would spend little time at home, necessitating his wife’s being willing to do the lion’s share of the childcare. If it was not in her interests to do so – if it was a high risk move financially – then isn’t it the children who pay?

      You keep stating what marriage is but that has no bearing on what it should be.

      Maybe, but it is not at all clear to me that your approach is better for families, especially children. I see many serious unintended consequences with your scenario.

  • Ramble

    No one claimed that. I’m just arguing that not all divorced women are unhappy. I think there are some happy divorced women.

    I hope that there was not an implied “ALL” in my statements. I do often try to pepper my sentences with “in general” and the like.

    As Canadian blogger Kathy Shaidle once said, if Paul Revere was riding today, he’d have to say “Some British are coming! Some British are coming!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As Canadian blogger Kathy Shaidle once said, if Paul Revere was riding today, he’d have to say “Some British are coming! Some British are coming!”

      LOL

  • Ramble

    Tell me about it! I fell in love with a guy who had long wavy hair, funky glasses and the softest old jeans ever. Then I woke up one day to find a man with short hair, conservative tortoise shell glasses, and a navy pinstripe suit!

    Did you tell him or are you just being snarky?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Did you tell him or are you just being snarky?

      I’m just being snarky. The point is, people change, our roles change. I would never hold my husband to the standard of maintaining the appearance or style he had when we met.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Another component of the fairness aspect is you’re only stating that it’s a 50/50 split, enforced by the state, but there is little enforcement or concern about equal contributions. How is it fair that someone can enter into marriage and contribute little and then at a whim end it and take 1/2 the stuff, that he or she did little to contribute to?

    You can say the bigger earner should have been smarter but why should the “who contributes” part be left to personal judgement but the “who gains the assets” part be enforced by the state?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Another component of the fairness aspect is you’re only stating that it’s a 50/50 split, enforced by the state, but there is little enforcement or concern about equal contributions. How is it fair that someone can enter into marriage and contribute little and then at a whim end it and take 1/2 the stuff, that he or she did little to contribute to?

      You seem fond of celebrity examples. If a person agrees to marry a celebrity, and to take on all that entails, including a very, very high probability of infidelity, why should they not be compensated? It’s a very high risk partnership, the returns should reflect that.

      I also think it’s dicey to suggest we should start measuring how each partner contributed. What is motherhood worth? In my case, my husband asked me to stay home with our son, and it was clearly understood by us both as a sacrifice on my part. How unfair it would have been if he had then divorced me and taken 90% of the assets!

  • Ramble

    The metaphor’s akin to saying someone’s a “casualty of war”, despite never having been in the military.

    People make war and battle analogies all the time.

    Still, apologies to all of those that were offended.

  • Mireille

    @Ramble,

    People compliment each other because it is a social lubricant. Someone who thinks I’m hot/smart “obviously” has great taste or judgement and is “definitely” my type of people lol. Feed my ego and I’ll do what you want me to. Not different from a guy complimenting another guy on his car choice.

  • Ramble

    Unfortunate the law doesn’t decide who is the best choice for you to marry

    No, but the divorce laws could change so that the wealthier party does not get fleeced.

  • Ramble

    People compliment each other because it is a social lubricant.

    I get that, obviously. The point is that our culture has changed significantly. You simply did not hear women tell each other how sexy they were until a generation or two ago.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    People make war and battle analogies all the time.

    True, it’s not as harsh but was the only thing that came to mind. Though I doubt wounded veterans would appreciate it if women were using that kind of thing to describe their own petty love lives. In fact, I know at least one who definitely wouldn’t…

  • Ramble

    Though I doubt wounded veterans would appreciate it if women were using that kind of thing to describe their own petty love lives.

    It’s true. There is always someone who will get upset. We must be more careful in how we word things.

  • Mireille

    Han,

    How could we go about quantifying and remunerating pregnancies and the toll they took on women who had children in a marriage? Certainly if assets should be split according to the percentage of what you put in, how can a wife account for all the times she threw up, cramped, had pain, got knifed in order to bring those children to life? Just curious.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mireille

      How could we go about quantifying and remunerating pregnancies and the toll they took on women who had children in a marriage?

      Good point. There’s a market value for surrogate motherhood, perhaps that could be a starting point. Any woman who carries and delivers a child should be compensated accordingly.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    This would of course change the incentives for the lesser earner to be much less favorable to end the marriage because they would get much less out of it.

    Are tangible income and wealth the only determinants of fairness?

    Thought experiment:
    Guy meets girl at 25. They have approximately the same income and net assets (say $25,000 each). She chooses to forgo career and stay home to help raise 2 kids for the next 20 years. His income rises over that time, they buy some real estate and invest, and household net assets grow to $250,000. At age 45, with the kids out of the house, he decides to unilaterally divorce her. He claims $225,000 in household net assets and takes sole credit for all income earned over the prior 20 years.

    Make the law anything you want. How would you (the judge) make things “fair” in this situation?

  • HanSolo

    Speaking of partnerships, if it were simply left up to the “market” of soon-to-wed couples to draw up their own terms, how many would explicitly agree to have one earn a lot and the other little but allow the lesser earner to end things at any point and take 1/2? I think that few higher earners would agree to that.

    Of course, the point is moot in cases where each partner earns roughly the same (whether a large amount or little).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Speaking of partnerships, if it were simply left up to the “market” of soon-to-wed couples to draw up their own terms, how many would explicitly agree to have one earn a lot and the other little but allow the lesser earner to end things at any point and take 1/2? I think that few higher earners would agree to that.

      But that’s what we have now, and obviously most high earning males do agree to it.

  • HanSolo

    @megaman and Mireille

    I did say that some additional amount should probably be given the lesser earner for career sacrificed and time spent on child care.

    As to MM’s question, first of all, I don’t think she should stay home and not work once the children are in school. So let’s assume 2 kids, separated by 3 years, that gives her about 8 years staying at home. If she stays beyond that then it’s more of a luxury and she is getting that benefit during the 12 years.

    So, I would allow the time spent caring for any children 5 years and under to count towards an increase in assets.

    In this example, of 8 years of claimable child care, then I would say those are the years that could be used. Look at what assets were acquired during that period (and their subsequent growth or decline, say stocks bought then went up or down by X%). At most, she should get 50% but likely not 50%.

    Exactly how much should the caregiver (usually wife but less rare now, husband) get for that, I don’t know. I would say that the smaller the assets the closer to 50% it could be for the assets acquired during the child caring years. The larger they are, the lower the percentage should be.

    You could also look at the rough earning expectations that child care partner would have had and factor that in a bit–a bit–it can’t go higher than 50% of the assets.

    Just some thoughts. I don’t have a perfect formula drawn up and in equal earnings scenarios the asset split is already fair. It’s more in the cases where you have high % disparities in earnings where it doesn’t seem fair for the lesser earner to get half.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As to MM’s question, first of all, I don’t think she should stay home and not work once the children are in school.

      That’s a personal decision for the couple to make. You can’t legislate that.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    She wouldn’t be left destitute if she were married to a high earner because she would get child support (which will be relatively large since he’s a high earner) and can start working. Plus any time she spent not working after the children are in school while married to the high earner is a pretty nice lifestyle for her.

    As to incentivizing her to work more, yes, but that might not be a bad thing. As long as we allot her some “equity” during the child care years (under 5 y/o) then that will be fair to her. It will also incentivize the man to work more too since he has less fear of losing 1/2 in the case where is the main earner.

    As I said, it will disincentivize the lesser earner from seeking divorce. But the current situation is not good either. Maybe a little less incentive to divorce would be good for society.

    And I think no-fault divorce with a 50/50 split should be abandoned.

    If the higher earner wants to divorce due to his own bad behavior or a frivolous reason then perhaps we can have him pay a bigger portion of the assets than he would if it were due to her bad behavior or frivolous reasons.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She wouldn’t be left destitute if she were married to a high earner because she would get child support (which will be relatively large since he’s a high earner) and can start working

      The child support is for the children, not her. She can still be left without a place to live, for example.

      Also, a woman who has stayed home with children will find her earning potential severely diminished. I’ve estimated that the value of my Wharton MBA fell 75% as a result of being home with kids.

      If the higher earner wants to divorce due to his own bad behavior or a frivolous reason then perhaps we can have him pay a bigger portion of the assets than he would if it were due to her bad behavior or frivolous reasons.

      Now you’re in the business of judging bad behavior and defining “frivolous!” No no no. This is not practical, nor desirable. If this is what the sphere means by family law reform, then I am genuinely alarmed.

  • Sai

    Re: IRS and free speech
    http://youtu.be/4d4vGIH36ss
    :(

    @RealityBites
    “Ladies, the cold, hard truth is that there is an enormous amount of competition for almost all American men. Even a lower income American bachelor is Donald Trump to a 3rd world woman. Your vagina, though very important to you, is just like every other vagina on planet earth – therefore not really that special. You guys can debate SMV and MMV all day long but it these concepts make little difference. Unfortunately, your value is determined by all of the other bachelorettes on the planet – most of them have functioning vaginas too.

    Not a pleasant way to view the world, but economics is often called “The Dismal Science” for good reason.”

    Men may go where they please and love who they please. So are you saying we Yanks all need to just give up and prepare to die alone? If so, it would have been acceptable to simply tell us that. If not, I apologize and would like to know exactly what it is you want done.

    @Anacaona
    “Guys here are divided in this issues I will think at least half of them say that they want the IOI’s but don’t want to be asked out because is a turn off. Some others say that if a woman approaches she will never know if the guy liked her enough to approach and making it too easy might gain her a guy that is not that into her and is only with her because she is easy and convenient.”

    This is what I’ve been told too. Some of the posters here have pointed out that they’d welcome it though.

    @Sassy
    “I’m not surprised that your SMV is higher in America, as a foreigner. Foreign men are often viewed as more attractive because they appear well cultured and exotic to us. I’m glad to hear that you are enjoying your time here.”

    +1

    Good luck, JS and Mary H!

    “or maybe he’ll be a Dos Equis international swordsman and still be hitting it at 50.”

    Why do people like that guy so much? I don’t see him doing any of the stuff they claim he has, so he’s just another dude with a publicist. :P

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    High earners spend little time at home now as it is. I don’t see how that would change under the new laws. And the woman is getting that luxury of having a high earner husband and being with her children.

    If you remove her incentive from divorcing for cases where its her own bad behavior or frivolous reasons then that will likely be better for the children.

    And no fault should be removed so that she gets a bit more if it’s the husband’s fault or he frivolously wants divorce.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Cap’n Solo
    That hypothetical I threw out wasn’t totally made up. I’m no fan of no-fault divorce, but prior to the laws being changed some % of women did experience that very situation. And that was back when they did stay home all the time, not just to raise the kids, but to maintain domestic tranquility. 2-income earners were not needed as much as they are today.

    BTW, I just ran a quick 2-variable correlation between “ever divorced/separated” and “relative difference in spousal income” over at the GSS:
    http://www3.norc.org/GSS+Website/

    It’s free, and they have a ton of variables to choose from. You can even PDF the results and raw numbers, which I can email anybody who’s interested. Total random sample was 539, data as of 2006. Here are the results (stated difference, then % ever divorced/separated Yes or No):

    “My spouse has no income”: Yes 22.2%, No 77.8% (N = 54)
    “I have much higher income”: Yes 21.4%, No 78.6% (N = 103)
    “I have higher income”: Yes 30.6%, No 69.4% (N = 72)
    “We have about the same income”: Yes 24.5%, No 75.5% (N = 53)
    “Spouse has higher income”: Yes 25.0%, No 75.0% (N = 168)
    “Spouse has much higher income”: Yes 24.2%, No 75.8% (N = 62)
    “I have no income”: Yes 0.0%, No 100.0% (N = 27)

    If divorce laws have created an incentive to fleece one’s wealthier spouse in court, and that was a widespread phenomenon, I see no evidence of it here. There doesn’t appear to be much of any correlation between the two variables.

  • Man

    @Mireille:

    It really says something about our society when we prefer to turn to porn rather than connect with another human, even below our standards. I guess we are getting close to what’s already happening in Japan.

    What do you have to say about that relating to your own experience and observation as a woman? Could you elaborate a bit more about what you mean with regard to I guess we are getting close to what’s already happening in Japan?

  • Jonathan

    Mireille:

    Should it also be socially acceptable for women to tell men that they need a bigger wallet/ penis or to be less short to be attractive? I don’t know how rude one can be.

    It is socially acceptable for a woman to dump a man who loses his job or fails to get the promotion or whose business goes bust, etc.

  • JS

    Having gone through a divorce not long ago, I think people may also be assuming that there are hard/fast rules for how finances get distributed in a divorce. We used a mediator and it was a process of negotiation. I’m not a jerk, and ex-hubby is not a jerk, and we came to agreements that were totally fair and left no one feeling abused. You’ve got to marry a quality person, who has a conscience and integrity. If you do that, you don’t have to be so fearful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JS

      We used a mediator and it was a process of negotiation. I’m not a jerk, and ex-hubby is not a jerk, and we came to agreements that were totally fair and left no one feeling abused.

      I’ve read that only 5% of divorces even go to court. The rest are handled amicably, without incident.

  • HanSolo

    @megaman

    I’m not seeking for unfairness to either partner and I am not trying to show that income differentials drive divorce. One of my simple points was that if there’s a shitload of money waiting to be had then that will incentivize divorce more than if that money can only be enjoyed by staying in the marriage.

    As to the stats, I’m not sure what you’re trying to show. You’re looking at the correlation between earning differentials of currently married people and whether those same people have ever been divorced (from a previous spouse)? So, with a very small sample you see that income differential doesn’t correlate with never being divorced (meaning still with the same spouse). Of course, men earning a lot is an attractive thing to many women. And income differential is different than having a big nest egg ready to split. High income with no savings would incentivize staying so you can get a portion of the future cash flow.

    As to those that have ever divorced, you’d have to look at the earning differential prior to divorce (and assure that it was sustained over many years) and how much savings/assets there were to split up in order to see if that played a role.

    Main point is that there will be many variables influencing decisions to divorce or stay married.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    It certainly is not a free market right now. Prenups often aren’t held up in court.

    As to child support, there’s no accountability so she can spend it however she chooses, short of being found abusive towards her children.

    I never suggested legislating women work once children are in school. Of course it’s a couple’s decision.

    I’m not coming at this from a sphere point of view. I don’t know what they think specifically. I’m just trying to come up with something that is fair to all involved.

    Good night. I’m off to a BBQ

  • Abbot

    “a guy with an SMV of 9 will usually be willing to have sex with a girl whose SMV is 7 or higher…Over time, this 7 begins to see herself as a genuine 9, despite the fact that no male of that value would ever consider dating her”

    Is it being suggested that this “harem impacted” 7 should “lower her standards” and remake herself into the type of woman men in her league consider worthy of commitment?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    One of my simple points was that if there’s a shitload of money waiting to be had then that will incentivize divorce more than if that money can only be enjoyed by staying in the marriage.

    Yeah, I guess that’s the root of some men’s fears. What financial risk do they run by getting married?

    There appears to be a very striking relationship between income, education, divorce, and geography. This goes beyond simple correlation:
    http://www.newgeography.com/content/002203-divorce-and-demographics-state

    States with higher education levels, and correspondingly higher personal incomes, appear to have lower male divorce rates, some by quite a bit. Other states, it appears the opposite is true. Higher income married men seem to be choosing wisely WRT wives. Best not to cheat, considering what might happen financially, but I’m sure they already know that.

    Of course, none of these statistics get to the question of personal risk of divorce. That can only depend on the individual in question, and his or her spouse. I believe that ground’s already been covered extensively.

  • Jonathan

    Marriage imposes costs on women, who bear and care for children. However, it also imposes substantial costs on men, particularly opportunity costs as men who marry renounce the pursuit of other women and often abandon their dreams of pursuing high-risk business or other ventures. It also seems clear that the current legal climate tends to punish men and too often rewards women who divorce. Surely it is possible to modernize the laws in ways that protect children, SAHMs, female high-earners, and husbands without creating moral hazard by rewarding women who divorce. It’s in everyone’s interest not to perpetuate disincentives for men to marry, which the current system does.

    (BTW, I met a man yesterday who has been divorced many years, is now retired, yet still pays alimony to his ex-wife. This strikes me as a perverse outcome.)

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @Jonathan,

    It is socially acceptable for a woman to dump a man who loses his job or fails to get the promotion or whose business goes bust, etc. when he shows no signs or willingness to get back on his feet

    There, I corrected it for you.

    @HanSolo,

    I don’t think you answered my question clearly. What I’m wondering is who’s to say bringing a child to life isn’t the “greatest thing a human could do and is basically priceless, or at least very expensive judging by the whole surrogacy industry? It is after all a literal human investment as in blood and sweat. Can a judge argue that since it is hard to define the real price of motherhood but evidently a capacity a women brings into marriage, it would seem “fair” to split assets down the middle?

    Also by the same theory of “you take out what you put in”, can children simply remain the woman’s then? In reality, during reproduction, the man provides sperms but the woman provides an egg and the viable environment which impacts her physical and psychological health, so much more investment. This is how you have custody given to women in most cases and decried by the majority of responsible fathers. I don’t think we can decry one and support your asset division plan.

  • Jonathan

    Also, other things equal it’s a good idea to discourage divorce as family dissolution is hell on the children. The current legal climate goes too far in the direction of encouraging divorce.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @jon

    It also seems clear that the current legal climate tends to punish men and too often rewards women who divorce.

    Care to qualify and quantify, with actual numbers?

    Surely it is possible to modernize the laws in ways that protect children, SAHMs, female high-earners, and husbands without creating moral hazard by rewarding women who divorce.

    Care to make a specific proposal, and identify the state in which you live?

    Considering any changes to divorce law must happen at the state level, I suspect such a mass movement wouldn’t get much traction in California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Virgina, Wisconsin, and the District of Colombia (50% of the U.S. population).

    I doubt folks in Susan’s backyard would see much need, as their divorce rate is astronomically low.

  • Jonathan

    Mireille:

    @Jonathan,

    It is socially acceptable for a woman to dump a man who loses his job or fails to get the promotion or whose business goes bust, etc. when he shows no signs or willingness to get back on his feet

    There, I corrected it for you.

    Or when times are tough and he doesn’t get back on his feet as quickly as she wants. Not that some men aren’t lazy, but if a basically hard-working man is going through a rough patch and his wife/gf dumps him many (not all, but many) women will not criticize or “judge” her.

    Would you take the same position toward a man who dumped his wife/gf for not losing weight?

  • Jonathan

    @Mega

    I think the main number to consider is the high percentage of divorces that are initiated by women. Also there is my perception that the family-law system is biased against men. Not sure how to quantify that. In my own middle-class social circles most marriages are intact, though I can think of one marriage that I suspect has endured mainly because the husband (my friend) was reasonably afraid of being victimized in the courts if he divorced. Others of my male friends have at one time or another expressed concerns about problems in their marriages and about how badly they would get screwed if their wives became dissatisfied enough to leave them. I’ve never heard such concerns from women I’m close to, though they have not been eager to divorce. And I have dated divorced women, most of whose descriptions of how they ended up again single suggested that their hypergamy was an issue (“we grew apart” etc.). So, not a lot of hard stats but enough anecdote and personal observation, and reading stories online that fit similar patterns, to get a strong impression that the system skews anti-male.

    Specific proposals? Only the obvious ones of an end to no-fault divorce and to alimony. I’m sure there are other ideas worth considering. My main point is that the legal system hasn’t kept up with societal changes, particularly with increased female earning ability. (I’m in FL, BTW. The governor here recently vetoed, I think unfortunately, a bill that would have abolished alimony.)

    What are your recommendations?

  • SayWhaat

    My husband thought I was incredibly sexy when I was 8 months pregnant. I felt like a cow, but just the sight of my belly got him going.

    I think it’s worth exploring and understanding the male instinct behind this. For example, when I visited my ex’s childhood home, I recall that he was very much aroused because of the fact that I was there, and that we were traveling together (a first for us as a couple). Similarly, a couple times I spent the night at his place even though he was working late nights, and he was unusually aroused at 4 AM, because he came home to me already sound asleep in his bed.

    Something to think about (and possibly incorporate into Girl Game)…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Say Whaat

      What all those examples have in common perhaps is a male sense of ownership – “You’re mine.” In my case, a very obvious expression of giving my fertility to my husband. In your examples, your becoming part of his everyday life, his childhood history, sleeping alone in his bed, etc.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    Or when times are tough and he doesn’t get back on his feet as quickly as she wants. Not that some men aren’t lazy, but if a basically hard-working man is going through a rough patch and his wife/gf dumps him many (not all, but many) women will not criticize or “judge” her.

    Would you take the same position toward a man who dumped his wife/gf for not losing weight?

    You know what, I’m totally fine with a guy dumping his wife because she’s fat. It means that he never loved her truly and shouldn’t not waste her time with his superficiality. Ditto for a guy who “loses” a woman when he is out of luck. He should find someone else who’ll love him for himself. What other women will say or judge has no weight regardless. I personally don’t go around high fiving dumb or deluded people.

    I think the main number to consider is the high percentage of divorces that are initiated by women. Also there is my perception that the family-law system is biased against men. Not sure how to quantify that. In my own middle-class social circles most marriages are intact, though I can think of one marriage that I suspect has endured mainly because the husband (my friend) was reasonably afraid of being victimized in the courts if he divorced. Others of my male friends have at one time or another expressed concerns about problems in their marriages and about how badly they would get screwed if their wives became dissatisfied enough to leave them. I’ve never heard such concerns from women I’m close to, though they have not been eager to divorce. And I have dated divorced women, most of whose descriptions of how they ended up again single suggested that their hypergamy was an issue (“we grew apart” etc.). So, not a lot of hard stats but enough anecdote and personal observation, and reading stories online that fit similar patterns, to get a strong impression that the system skews anti-male.

    Specific proposals? Only the obvious ones of an end to no-fault divorce and to alimony. I’m sure there are other ideas worth considering. My main point is that the legal system hasn’t kept up with societal changes, particularly with increased female earning ability. (I’m in FL, BTW. The governor here recently vetoed, I think unfortunately, a bill that would have abolished alimony.)

    So, in short, you have no idea and no evidence, am I right?

    I think just like you observe the percentage of women initiating divorce, you should also examine the number of men in denial with regard to the state of their marriage. They don’t pay attention at all, dismiss issues as irrelevant, and wake up one day surprised to be slapped with divorce papers. Very few people when they think about it seriously didn’t see divorce coming and I’m sure your friends because of their fears are more attentive to solving any issues that may arise. More power to them.

    Tell me how you infer that hypergamy is the issue from “we grew apart”? Could it be that the husband doesn’t spend enough time with his wife to the extent that she became lonely and they disconnected? There are so many reasons people grow apart, but suits you well to decide that it must be the woman’s hypergamy at the origin.

    What are your recommendations?

    Take a deep breath and read some healthy stuff. Maybe you should go over the Married Man Sex Life to get a real look at what is really going on.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    I think it’s worth exploring and understanding the male instinct behind this. For example, when I visited my ex’s childhood home, I recall that he was very much aroused because of the fact that I was there, and that we were traveling together (a first for us as a couple). Similarly, a couple times I spent the night at his place even though he was working late nights, and he was unusually aroused at 4 AM, because he came home to me already sound asleep in his bed.

    Something to think about (and possibly incorporate into Girl Game)…

    I think everybody, men and women, want to have sex in a safe place with someone who provides that safety, someone who is “home” to you. OTOH, I suppose men might feel more sexually aggressive when the women is on their “territory”. Just hypothesising…

  • Anacaona

    @Ramble
    From my sales instructor
    2 girls meet: “You look so beautiful!” “I love your new hair do”
    2 guys meet: “What’s up, baldy?”, “Nothing fatso”
    Women connect which each other in positive ways and compliments, always have and always will be.
    If you think that didn’t happened back in the day just look at old movies “Your house is lovely” “That dinner was delicious” “Where did you bought those drapes” “That dress is wonderful” “This old thing I had it for years”Hey even Jane Austen antagonists compliment each other while lightly insulting each other.
    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @jon

    What are your recommendations?

    None. I’ve no interest in changing laws, particularly when such change is predicated upon unquantified allegations of abuse, and anxiety WRT the unknown (i.e. it could happen to you and you’ll never see it coming). I don’t respond positively to mass appeals to fear or stupidity. I don’t fear what my wife might do, nor was I stupid for choosing to marry her. Beyond that, I don’t presume to tell other men what they should do marriage-wise, other than to avoid it altogether if they’re unduly worried about a hypothetically bad future in which a hypothetical wife divorces them and takes 1/2 of their hypothetical net assets and income.

    In all honesty, this old tune has been played so often here, there’s no novelty left. When the same generalized complaints keep getting repeated in a place like HUS, where the ladies have a divorce risk of practically zero, I have to scratch my head and wonder yet again: WHY HERE? It’s one of those questions that will never get a satisfactory answer…

  • HanSolo

    @Mireille

    What I’m wondering is who’s to say bringing a child to life isn’t the “greatest thing a human could do and is basically priceless, or at least very expensive judging by the whole surrogacy industry? It is after all a literal human investment as in blood and sweat. Can a judge argue that since it is hard to define the real price of motherhood but evidently a capacity a women brings into marriage, it would seem “fair” to split assets down the middle?

    I don’t think motherhood is priceless in a literal sense. I think some fair value should be attached to it though and granted to her as accrued equity during the year she had the child and for each year after that up to 5 years of age that she spends at home. After all kids are in school then she can go back to work. In the extreme cases of a super wealthy husband who earns millions in the year the wife has the baby or in the years she cares for young children I just don’t think she should expect to be getting 1/2 of the annual savings when they’re in the millions or even 6 figures. I’m sorry. Her work just isn’t worth that much. If she wants access to all that money then she should stay in the marriage.

    Also by the same theory of “you take out what you put in”, can children simply remain the woman’s then? In reality, during reproduction, the man provides sperms but the woman provides an egg and the viable environment which impacts her physical and psychological health, so much more investment. This is how you have custody given to women in most cases and decried by the majority of responsible fathers. I don’t think we can decry one and support your asset division plan.

    I think that women and men should have default 50/50 custody and 50/50 responsibility for the children’s expenses and adjustments can be made based on the fitness of the parents to act in that role. Under your proposed theory of the children simply being the woman’s then she should have to support them 100% since they are all hers and no one else’s. If the husband has no rights over the children then he should have no responsibilities either. However, I prefer the 50/50 split of rights and responsibilities between husband and wife for children as a default assumption in the case of divorce and that some extra assets are allotted to the wife, beyond her income, for having the baby and for caring for small children during the marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      After all kids are in school then she can go back to work.

      This is a naive statement. School ends by 2:30 or 3:00, and in our town it gets out at 1:00 two days a week. Many women I know who work pay most of their after-tax salary for various childcare arrangements and transportation. There’s little to no net contribution to family income – the wife works to keep her hand in, so to speak.

      Additionally, a mother cannot really work more than 40 hours a week without creating a lot of disruption for her children. When I sought to return to work, the biggest problem I had is that my resume implied 60 hours/week while I needed to work much less. Unless one is in a profession that welcomes part-time arrangements, or working from home, it can be very difficult to find work in your chosen field. Even then it is very hard – for example, one of my closest friends is a pediatrician who works “part-time” for half salary. 25 hours a week in the office and another 10-15 at home doing charts.
      In my case, the most profitable route was freelance consulting work, though parenting responsibilities meant that I had to pass on many lucrative projects. My income didn’t come anywhere near my husband’s contribution, despite the fact that I worked long into the night and was totally stressed out most of the time.

      Her work just isn’t worth that much.

      Motherhood is a lot more than domestic work or childcare. It’s the nurturing of a child in every conceivable way. However, I believe economists have priced out the annual salary of a SAHM based on market value and found it to be about 120K, FWIW.

      I think that women and men should have default 50/50 custody and 50/50 responsibility for the children’s expenses and adjustments can be made based on the fitness of the parents to act in that role.

      As explained above, there is simply no way two people can maximize earnings and still parent well. One parent or the other must make compromises in their career. I do think joint custody should be the presumption, but I believe you’d find that a significant percentage of men don’t want it.

      As for adjustments being made based on fitness, all of your suggested remedies involve a lot of refereeing and passing judgment on individuals’ intent, fitness, reasoning, and degree of “frivolousness.” Who would make these judgments? It would mean increasing the size of state government very substantially, e.g., perhaps quadrupling Social Services. Do you want female social workers passing judgment on your fitness as a husband and father?

  • HanSolo

    That should say, beyond “what she put in” instead of “income.”

  • HanSolo

    Summary:

    If a married couple never have children then any asset split upon divorce should only be based on how much each put in during the marriage years.

    If they have children then the mother can accrue some additional percentage of the assets simply for giving birth. Further additional assets accrue to a stay-at-home mom or dad for time spent on caring for children before they are in school. Years of marriage where no small children are being cared for by stay-at-home mom or dad revert to the default calculation of how much each puts in his how much counts towards what they would get out upon divorce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a married couple never have children then any asset split upon divorce should only be based on how much each put in during the marriage years

      That would need to include all forms of contribution, not just monetary. Domestic service priced at market value, including cooking, cleaning, mending, shopping, pet care, transporting children and coordinating school and extracurricular activities. Emotional support may be priced at the going hourly rate for a therapist. Family obligations, travel planning, gift procurement and delivery, nursing during illness, and coordinating social plans are all services that may be priced at market value.

      There is real value and worth in these services, and they must be priced accordingly in the interest of fairness. Once a fair annual rate is determined, the investment of those assets at a reasonable rate or return should also be assumed for the duration of the marriage.

      I still don’t support throwing out the presumption of shared marital assets, but if one did, the above valuation would need to be performed.

      BTW, speaking of prenups, my friend’s 28 year old niece met a very senior 30-something exec at Google in February. He has just proposed, saying, “Will you marry me? With no prenup?”

  • HanSolo

    “is” rather than “his” in the last sentence of 298

  • HanSolo

    @Megaman

    “in a place like HUS, where the ladies have a divorce risk of practically zero”

    I assume you’re talking about college-graduate women who don’t marry too young. While the divorce rate is lower than that of the general population it’s certainly not “practically zero” or even close to that. I think that rounding to the nearest 5% is close enough so if the rate really were 4.9% or lower then you could accurately call it “practically zero.”

    However, according to this article it’s about 20%.

    http://psychcentral.com/lib/2012/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/all/1/

    “for college educated women who marry after the age of 25 and have established an independent source of income, the divorce rate is only 20 percent!”

  • Mireille

    Han,

    I see your point of view but it is evident that even you can’t really define what “certain percentage” might actually closely compensate for “giving birth”, not just raising children. Prices vary from $15,000 to $50,000 in some cases of surrogacy so we could use thisas a basis to know how much does the reproductive function costs. So when you say ‘ a certain percentage’, it can be a percentage between 0 and 99% and this is exactly this in this window that judges decide. Even with your new principle, we still might end up with the same “abusive” asset division you were trying to change.

  • JP

    “This is a naive statement. School ends by 2:30 or 3:00, and in our town it gets out at 1:00 two days a week. Many women I know who work pay most of their after-tax salary for various childcare arrangements and transportation. There’s little to no net contribution to family income – the wife works to keep her hand in, so to speak.”

    This is why a mother gets a job *in a local school system*.

    Match your hours to the children.

    Whenever my wife toys with the idea of getting a job, she’s generally looking to a local school system.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is why a mother gets a job *in a local school system*.

      Match your hours to the children.

      Whenever my wife toys with the idea of getting a job, she’s generally looking to a local school system.

      That’s a great strategy in terms of lifestyle. For many couples, her salary will not come close to her husband’s, even though between her job and childcare, she may be working harder than he does!

      It’s unfair to judge contribution based on salary alone.

  • JP

    “However, I believe economists have priced out the annual salary of a SAHM based on market value and found it to be about 120K, FWIW.”

    This is a complete fallacy.

    Translating this into money is stupid.

    It’s valuable in and of itself because children are valuable, not because it’s worth money.

    It’s an end, not the means to an end.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Translating this into money is stupid.

      It’s valuable in and of itself because children are valuable, not because it’s worth money.

      It’s an end, not the means to an end.

      I agree – that’s the “priceless” argument. It’s the reason why the kind of policy Han is suggesting could never work.

  • JP

    “I still don’t support throwing out the presumption of shared marital assets, but if one did, the above valuation would need to be performed.”

    This has nothing to do with valuation.

    You’re married.

    When you get married, you become one social/economic/legal entity because that’s a feature of marriage.

    Don’t like this?

    Don’t get married.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When you get married, you become one social/economic/legal entity because that’s a feature of marriage.

      Don’t like this?

      Don’t get married.

      +1

  • JP

    Plus, most careers these days are busted by about age 40 or 45.

    Careers are being replaced by minimum wage make-work type jobs.

  • JS

    As Susan mentioned, even when you work for yourself, there’s no magic solution when the kids go to school. I calculated that, after carpool, (no bus system for this school), I have a maximum of 31 hours a week to work. That’s 31 hours he is in school. So, I am already at a 9 hour deficit as a woman, beginning my work week.

    And they get sick. Some days I have to cancel appointments two or three days in a row if my son gets sick. Do I get to work from home while he’s sick? Maybe I get to answer my emails, but it’s hard to do much while you’re being Florence Nightingale.

    And they get out of school 1/2 days. And holidays. And long Christmas breaks. And all summer.

    Am I sorry? Do I have regret? I would do anything in the world for this child, but I must support him too, which is a harsh reality. I am beyond grateful that I set my own hours and can cancel appointments when he is sick. I don’t know how full-time working women “do it.” But there is considerable stress in my life to bill enough hours to support my family (child sppt isn’t what men seem to think it’s cracked up to be). The challenge is: support your family, raise a child with all the love and attention he deserves, and somehow not go crazy/have some semblance of a normal adult life. It’s a real balancing act. :)

  • Liz

    I understand that the no-fault system has been abused, which is sad. But do we really want a return to public trials? That’s what happened before no-fault divorce laws. Read up on the history. This from Wikipedia:

    Prior to the no-fault divorce revolution, a divorce was processed through the adversarial system, meaning that a divorce could be obtained only through a showing of fault of one of the parties in a marriage. This was something more than not loving one another; it meant that one spouse had to plead that the other had committed adultery, abandonment, felony, or other similarly culpable acts. However, the other spouse could plead a variety of defenses, like recrimination (essentially an accusation of “so did you”). A judge could accept the defense of recrimination and find both spouses at fault for the dysfunctional nature of their marriage… which meant that the parties remained married.
    [italics mine]

    Weird, huh? It also describes the sorts of shenanigans that people employed to invent a legally sufficient reason to divorce (usually entrapment or fictional “affairs”). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_divorce#United_States_history

    My recent divorce was instigated by a felony assault, yet I only checked the “irreconcilable differences” box and was glad to be able to do so, rather than relive the experience that led to his arrest.

    Incidentally, many states provide for “equitable” distribution of assets, not “equal.”

  • Lokland

    @Mir

    “Should it also be socially acceptable for women to tell men that they need a bigger wallet/ penis or to be less short to be attractive? I don’t know how rude one can be. ”

    I was in Miami one time and had a women tell me I was too short and should be kicked out of the club.
    Admiteddly she was obnoxiously drunk and that was a one off that I never really considered.

    I’ve had two women go after me randomly when I was walking down the street (also when clubbing). One was about being short the other about being creepy (I was unlucky enough to be walking in the same direction to meet some friends).

    ————————–

    Less than 24 hours from not caring about expatting to all expats are losewrs who can’t get laid.

    New record. Good job ladies.

    OTOH, most schools (assuming we are talking college still) maintain ~15-20% foreignh students.

    Merely a 1 in 5 chance that the girl a guy chooses to approach is a foreigner. Thats what happened to me multiple times (I went to two schools with a very, very high % of foreign students however.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Less than 24 hours from not caring about expatting to all expats are losewrs who can’t get laid.

      New record. Good job ladies.

      The tipoff is usually the over the top snark, anger, bitterness and recriminations against American women. Reality Bites did not disappoint, and so should not be surprised to have elicited a hostile reaction (which is almost certainly accurate).

  • BuenaVista

    Liz #313:
    “I understand that the no-fault system has been abused, which is sad. But do we really want a return to public trials?”

    Red herring. At-fault divorce did not mandate trials, and no-fault does not pre-empt trials.

    In support: until a year or two ago, there was no no-fault divorce in NY. People got divorced without going to court. It just required cooperation, which I think is appropriate.

    What no-fault allows is unilateral divorce taken by one party in the marriage. Initially the concern was that women would be victimized by the husbands, but the statistics now are that 70%+ are initiated by the women. No-fault opponents (moi, par example) think that divorce should be a mutual decision, or limited to at-fault situations. Today, the only brake on capricious or unilateral divorce is social shaming, and it’s insufficient to save families except within the cognitive elite, for whom an intact marriage remains a merit badge many people want.

    In finance, we often talk about the ‘option-adjusted value’ of something. No good contract awards options absent payment for those options (‘free options’). No-fault divorce gives each partner the free option to bail, and one of them the free option to sequester the children and void their relationships with one of the parents. This is bad stuff. A free option is an unfunded exchange of value. No-fault provides economic incentives to damage or destroy other people. The state has invested in the destruction of families.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      but the statistics now are that 70%+ are initiated by the women.

      It’s 66% in the only stat I have ever seen on this, which comes from the Brinig study that looked at only 4 states. FTR, the number was 60% in the 1800s.

  • Lokland

    “I think it’s worth exploring and understanding the male instinct behind this. For example, when I visited my ex’s childhood home, I recall that he was very much aroused because of the fact that I was there, and that we were traveling together (a first for us as a couple). Similarly, a couple times I spent the night at his place even though he was working late nights, and he was unusually aroused at 4 AM, because he came home to me already sound asleep in his bed.”

    I think someone hit on the ownership aspect earlier.
    Most men are going to consider their women their property.

    When she demonstrates that she feels safe and trusts in you to protect and provide for her it triggers the protector-provider aspect of the male psyche.

    I’ll add that there are still nights where I work until 4-5 am (or just come home the next day) and it is incredibly arousing and loveable (heart melting) to see my wife curled up in bed sound asleep feeling safe.

    OTOH, the child hood thing represents that she is willing to examine you at your weakest and not run away in disgust. I had a similar experience when my wife found the video of my first birthday.

    She just sat there and watched it (twice) and its 45 mins long.

    Very hot.

  • Lokland

    As for divorce.

    I think having a mandatory three month waiting period between filing and actually being divorced would help out quite bit.

    Or IOW, go in and judge tells you to go home and think about it for awhile.

    Similarly in asset splitting, a 75% investor gets 75% of the profit and/or cash upon sale of the business.

    Women tend to invest non-monetarily but to suggest that is always 50% is silly as it means a woman who has 3 kids where the husband makes 50k is worth 25k whereas a guy who makes 500k the wife is worth 250k.

    Silly concept.

    I do agree that if one were to split non-50/50 the non-monetary aspects are going to have to be included. This would mean however that women with really high earnewrs would get boned by standardized pay. (OTOH, there is still more to split there than in the average relationship so they will still comne out ahead.)

  • Sam

    Trying to read through all these comments . . . ugh . . .at about 150 right now reading about all this first date kissing stuff. Open mouth, closed mouth, yada yada. It gives me a really great (dumb) idea.
    Next time I’m on a date with really good chemistry (really good, like can’t be screwed up with a totally stupid joke, which is what I’m about to do, good) I want to go in for the smooch at the end of the night, but just as I’m about to make contact turn my head and give her the cheek. Haha, yes! I love it, I really can’t take anything seriously. If she could take that joke, she’s in.

  • Maggie

    “Whenever my wife toys with the idea of getting a job, she’s generally looking to a local school system.”

    Your wife and every other mom as well. These jobs are hard to come by in a lot of areas. Public schools have been having lots of layoffs in the past five years and the women who have them never give them up.

    @Susan
    “This is a naive statement”

    +1
    With all due respect, some of the men here without children are completely clueless as to what it takes to raise a child. Susan already mentioned that younger children still need care after school, during summer break and during vacations. Teenagers still need their parents a great deal, as Anne Marie Slaughter famously found out. A child who is learning disabled or autistic can need a lot of care.
    It’s easy to say a woman should “get a part-time job” but these jobs often don’t pay well, have no benefits and little opportunity for advancement. Her career and earnings potential is going to take a big for years, so to say “do away with all alimony” doesn’t take this into account at all.

  • JP

    @Maggie:

    “Your wife and every other mom as well. These jobs are hard to come by in a lot of areas. Public schools have been having lots of layoffs in the past five years and the women who have them never give them up.”

    If she felt like getting a job, the chances of her getting one would be close to 100%.

    She doesn’t really feel like getting one.

    The last job she had was a very part-time restaurant hostess job.

  • Jonathan

    Mireille:

    Specific proposals? Only the obvious ones of an end to no-fault divorce and to alimony. I’m sure there are other ideas worth considering. My main point is that the legal system hasn’t kept up with societal changes, particularly with increased female earning ability. (I’m in FL, BTW. The governor here recently vetoed, I think unfortunately, a bill that would have abolished alimony.)

    So, in short, you have no idea and no evidence, am I right?

    No. I’m basing my argument on the fact that women initiate divorce at a higher rate than men, and on my own observations which are consistent with those of most men (and many women) I’ve heard discuss these issues. If you have a better argument let’s hear it. Instead you seem eager to find reasons to dismiss the case for reform and the extreme dissatisfaction many men have with marriage under the current system.

    I think just like you observe the percentage of women initiating divorce, you should also examine the number of men in denial with regard to the state of their marriage. They don’t pay attention at all, dismiss issues as irrelevant, and wake up one day surprised to be slapped with divorce papers. Very few people when they think about it seriously didn’t see divorce coming and I’m sure your friends because of their fears are more attentive to solving any issues that may arise. More power to them.

    My friends didn’t have issues because of their fear. They had fear because the legal system incentivizes wives to blow up their families if they are dissatisfied. You don’t seem to have a problem with that.

    Tell me how you infer that hypergamy is the issue from “we grew apart”? Could it be that the husband doesn’t spend enough time with his wife to the extent that she became lonely and they disconnected? There are so many reasons people grow apart, but suits you well to decide that it must be the woman’s hypergamy at the origin.

    If the wife is unhappy it’s the husband’s fault.

    What are your recommendations?

    Take a deep breath and read some healthy stuff. Maybe you should go over the Married Man Sex Life to get a real look at what is really going on.

    Yes, dear.

  • Jonathan

    Megaman:

    @jon

    What are your recommendations?

    None. I’ve no interest in changing laws, particularly when such change is predicated upon unquantified allegations of abuse, and anxiety WRT the unknown (i.e. it could happen to you and you’ll never see it coming). I don’t respond positively to mass appeals to fear or stupidity. I don’t fear what my wife might do, nor was I stupid for choosing to marry her. Beyond that, I don’t presume to tell other men what they should do marriage-wise, other than to avoid it altogether if they’re unduly worried about a hypothetically bad future in which a hypothetical wife divorces them and takes 1/2 of their hypothetical net assets and income.

    Good to hear that things are going well for you. However, isn’t your argument merely the mirror image of the “I got screwed in my divorce, therefore there should be reform” argument? If other people shouldn’t generalize from their personal experiences then perhaps you shouldn’t either.

    I’m not telling anyone what to do. Marriage is great when it works, and many marriages seem to work. But many marriages fail and there are obvious patterns in the failures. One of them is of women initiating divorce, against their husbands’ wishes, for reasons unrelated to abuse or other gross failure by the husband. These divorces are often disastrous for the children, the father and even the mother. Yet the legal system encourages them on the margin. Surely there is room for improvement in a legal regime designed in the distant past when men’s and women’s family and economic roles were different than now.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    The current family law system essentially capitalizes the wife of a billionaire’s homemaker contribution to be worth $500 million, while the contributions of Joe the Plumber’s wife are worth, say, $25k. The end result of this is that “marrying well”/hypergamy/gold-digging ON BOTH SIDES is being incentivized.

    I think the radfem Lean-Ins are fine with this. My asset protection attorney is one of these and she thinks there should be a fixed and standardized homemaker contribution that does not vary with the partnership assets of the marriage; i.e., the billionaire’s wife and Joe’s wife would achieve essentially the same pay-outs in the event of divorce. Even the most extreme MRA guys that I know don’t go this far; it is obviously designed to force women out of the SAHM option to fulfill the feminist professional development agenda.

    The Lean-Ins are going to inadvertently co-sponsor a generation of male gigolos who see the 60/40 as both a ticket to a decade of casual sex and an opportunity to marry a neurosurgeon at the end, and to be honest I think that they sort of like this result. When I was an undergrad, I and my male friends naturally assumed that the SAHM did a better job of parenting than the hardcore working mom did, but this generation has been systematically indoctrinated to believe that this is not true. So it becomes axiomatic that a man should marry a high-earning woman and insist that she remain in the rat race: the couple will have a higher monetary standard of living while married, there is apparently no cost to the kids, the husband feels less pressure to be an exclusive provider for his family and can consider that video game start-up he always wanted to do with Burt and Frank, and the husband comes out much better off in the event of divorce.

  • JP

    @Bastiat:

    “The current family law system essentially capitalizes the wife of a billionaire’s homemaker contribution to be worth $500 million, while the contributions of Joe the Plumber’s wife are worth, say, $25k. The end result of this is that “marrying well”/hypergamy/gold-digging ON BOTH SIDES is being incentivized.”

    This is called “human nature”.

    See history for details.

  • Liz

    @Lokland May 19, 2013 at 10:11 am

    I think having a mandatory three month waiting period between filing and actually being divorced would help out quite bit.

    Most places aren’t Las Vegas! My simple, two-hearing, no-asset-split divorce took around nine months. And you can’t just kick an abusive spouse out of the house. I learned that the hard way.

    I like how this post started out as Sexual Market Value and turned into “woe betide the married man…” ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liz

      And you can’t just kick an abusive spouse out of the house. I learned that the hard way.

      Wait, I’ve always heard that under VAWA you can call the police with a claim of abuse and have the spouse arrested on the spot without evidence. And get an eviction, restraining order etc. as well.

      Can you clarify?

  • JP

    You have to be separated in North Carolina for at least a year before you get to file for a divorce.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    JP, yes, it is human nature. Exactly. People respond to incentives.

    I have heard the “foregone opportunities” argument used to justify the current family law system and the imputed-capitalization problem of equitable distribution, but that is not a valid form of reasoning when it comes to legit partnership structures. If my hedge fund blows up, I cannot sue my general and limited partners because working at the fund caused me to forego opportunities to become a pornstar, Formula 1 driver, or costumed
    vigilante.

    Susan, I agree with your comments that changing the equitable distribution laws could make women feel that they had to maximize the income contribution to the marriage instead of thinking of prioritizing the home front. What I think needs to be considered more is that men are not inanimate objects who are hardwired to ultimately follow one beta-provider script, allowing women to be fluid actors who are free to pick and choose from an array of traditional and non-traditional lifestyle choices depending on how satisfying they find their careers, motherhood, etc.

    Guys will eventually respond to incentives, and the system we have is telling
    young men to look for wealth-creating wives and that said wives are able to
    do everything an SAHM can do + make a lot of money. I don’t believe this is true, but I would be crazy to actually voice this opinion on campus.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    No. I’m basing my argument on the fact that women initiate divorce at a higher rate than men, and on my own observations which are consistent with those of most men (and many women) I’ve heard discuss these issues. If you have a better argument let’s hear it. Instead you seem eager to find reasons to dismiss the case for reform and the extreme dissatisfaction many men have with marriage under the current system.

    What I’m exposing is that you have insufficient information, not dismissing your point. It is a problem but you’re citing anecdote as evidence, can’t hardly account for the whole story.

    My friends didn’t have issues because of their fear. They had fear because the legal system incentivizes wives to blow up their families if they are dissatisfied. You don’t seem to have a problem with that.

    You’re assuming a lot of things you didn’t even bother to think about. What I want to know is whether or not your male friends would actually stay in a marriage where they are dissatisfied just for the sake of not divorcing. You seem to think men don’t ask for divorce at all. I contended that the fear of losing their marriage and partner made them more aware of the risks and therefore proactive in solving issues. You don’t seem to understand how the fear of failure can push people at performing better.

    If the wife is unhappy it’s the husband’s fault.

    …and I can’t believe I let you drag me into this!

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    Guys will eventually respond to incentives, and the system we have is telling
    young men to look for wealth-creating wives and that said wives are able to
    do everything an SAHM can do + make a lot of money. I don’t believe this is true, but I would be crazy to actually voice this opinion on campus.

    I don’t think that’d be crazy. The problem with all that type of “advice” is that it is usually presented as something people “should” instead of “could”. This millennial generation is the generation of multiple options, so many in fact it becomes paralyzing. But nevertheless, all that wisdom about marriage and finances has to be presented as the options people can work out among themselves.
    Why I don’t think that’d really amount to much is that with economic times getting harder, the conversation is beyond political or philosophical posturing; it is a math issue at this point, and very few people can actually make the SAHM thing work and live on one salary. So even if women agree to stay home and men agree to share 50/50, it is still hard to make it work unless women marry super wealthy men.
    Since these wealthy men represent an ever shrinking group, other men can’t go on blogs to bemoan women for being gold-diggers simply because they chose to marry men that could afford the “luxury” of having a SAHM and children with maximum supervision. It isn’t all about getting fancy purses, especially when you could get those yourself but you gave up your job.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Ha ha! Was that the guy who referred to women as “walking vaginas on life support” or something? It would have been A+ if it was satire! ;)

    You mentioned showing HUS to my brother earlier. Well, I did and here was his remark:

    “What the hell kind of ‘masculine’ man blames all his problems on women?”

  • Lokland

    “The tipoff is usually the over the top snark, anger, bitterness and recriminations against American women. Reality Bites did not disappoint, and so should not be surprised to have elicited a hostile reaction (which is almost certainly accurate).”

    Of course. I meant it took less than 24 hours for y’all to go from indidivual to every guy who marries a foreigner.

    I just toss in my usual bit on their being a lot of foreigners who happen to be here (expats from their own countries) and they do quite well for themselves.

    But alas, all those guys who choose them must be losers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I just toss in my usual bit on their being a lot of foreigners who happen to be here (expats from their own countries) and they do quite well for themselves.

      Seriously, Lokland, please read the commentary before going off on a tangent. It was not about foreigners, it was his slamming American women and threatening to expatriate to find a vagina with utility.

      That’s nothing like meeting someone who “happens to be” where you live.

      I don’t have a problem with anyone’s expatriating if that’s how they can get what they want. Nor do I fail to understand the appeal of foreign, more submissive women. I don’t know why he stops here on his way to the airport to lob a few grenades though. We don’t care.

  • Lokland

    @Liz

    “Most places aren’t Las Vegas! My simple, two-hearing, no-asset-split divorce took around nine months. And you can’t just kick an abusive spouse out of the house. I learned that the hard way.”

    You coulfd have left, no?
    I think its ridiculous to be able teo remove someone from their home based on an allegation that has not been proven.

    Especially with alternatives available.

  • Maggie

    @BB
    “What I think needs to be considered more is that men are not inanimate objects who are hardwired to ultimately follow one beta-provider script, allowing women to be fluid actors who are free to pick and choose from an array of traditional and non-traditional lifestyle choices depending on how satisfying they find their careers, motherhood, etc.”

    Right, and in a good relationship these are decisions that should be made as a couple, not just on the whim of the woman. It’s interesting how many men seem happy to unselfishly follow the beta-provider script, though. I’m certainly grateful that my father did and I truly appreciate my husband for doing this.

  • JP

    My wife will periodically threaten to return to the workplace.

    Thus far, I’ve been able to dissuade her from that course of action.

  • Gin Martini

    Mir: “very few people can actually make the SAHM thing work and live on one salary. So even if women agree to stay home and men agree to share 50/50, it is still hard to make it work unless women marry super wealthy men.”

    I’ve disagreed with this many times, and will do so again. I am not wealthy, let alone super-wealthy and support a family of five on one “beta” salary. My retirement is well-funded, I have plans for three kids to go to college, I work 40 hours a week, in a high-COL area (Eastern MA). No debt other than my house. I honestly don’t struggle, and work to live, not live to work.

    All it takes is spending less than you earn. We don’t take fancy expensive vacations, like most of the dual-earners I know. Rather, we go visit family and spend time together.

    I’m not sure where this myth comes from, really. Is the standard of luxury so high for elites that you all believe that only wealthy people can do this?

    The way I see it, that most people CAN, save for the very poorest, they choose not to… because it’s boring, and not fun.

  • Emily

    Girls can expat too!!! I <3 my English boyfriend. :D

  • Sassy6519

    Girls can expat too!!! I <3 my English boyfriend.

    Oooh, does he have a great English accent too?

  • Bells

    @Emily,
    So jealous :) I’ve always wanted to date an English man

  • Emily

    He does, although I’ve been living in England for a few years now, so I’ve developed an immunity to most of the accents over here. :P

  • JP

    “In the extreme cases of a super wealthy husband who earns millions in the year the wife has the baby or in the years she cares for young children I just don’t think she should expect to be getting 1/2 of the annual savings when they’re in the millions or even 6 figures. I’m sorry. Her work just isn’t worth that much. If she wants access to all that money then she should stay in the marriage.”

    His “work” isn’t worth that much, so I could care less who gets it.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ Gin Martini,

    That is because most people actually live on mortgages and with credit cards galore in America so it might seem doable for some. I also consider the fact that college tuitions are basically shouldered by the kids since most parents cannot actually afford those. So I’m not sure it is a myth. I have lived overseas where people must pay for everything upfront, that is what I use to determine that some stuff is just barely doable here if we have to consider the reality of the market.

  • JP

    “That is because most people actually live on mortgages and with credit cards galore in America so it might seem doable for some.”

    No, he’s pretty much right.

    Most people spend gobs of money on things like eating out, movies, vacations, iPads, etc.

    They also often buy too much house and too much car.

    Some people are just wired to spend everything they have.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    JP,

    My point is the current consumerist lifestyle endorsed by most americans and their government does not allow them to live on one income. It might be possible, but the baseline these days is what is being considered, even if it actually contains a lot of BS.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Seriously, Lokland, please read the commentary before going off on a tangent. It was not about foreigners, it was his slamming American women and threatening to expatriate to find a vagina with utility.”

    I read the entire thing. Same debate as always. Triggered by an individual before targeting the general.

    “Throughout history, expatriation has been largely a function of limited opportunities at home, and has been undertaken with much regret.”

    Loser who can’t get laid.

    “It means separating from family, friends, and home. Diaspora has never been something people aspire to. American women assume, with good reason, that a man expatriates because he has limited opportunities at home. It’s de-selection.”

    Loser who can’t get laid.

    “I’ve seen the occasional article documenting this practice, and the men generally have low SMV and represent a tiny minority of the male population.”

    Loser who can’t get laid.

    So as I said;

    “Less than 24 hours from not caring about expatting to all expats are losewrs who can’t get laid.
    New record. Good job ladies.”

  • Anacaona

    No, he’s pretty much right.

    Most people spend gobs of money on things like eating out, movies, vacations, iPads, etc.

    They also often buy too much house and too much car.

    Some people are just wired to spend everything they have.
    Well I think that it has to do with one’s as parents. Most people want to give their kids a better life than their parents had and since the older generation had a lot of opportunities and created the new culture of traveling, eating out certain amount of times a month, and some luxuries the prospects of giving their kids equal or the same seem grim by comparison. There is no Standard baseline of living that someone can measure itself up so what the people surrounding them have is what they use. A bit like measuring one’s SMV.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    I assume you’re talking about college-graduate women who don’t marry too young.

    No, I was literally referring to the blog hostess and the individual ladies who frequent HUS.

    I’m aware the divorce rate for college graduates overall is somewhere between 15-20%. And quite a bit lower on the West Coast, in the Upper Midwest, and in the Northeast. Higher elsewhere, which is why national averages don’t mean much at the individual level.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    Have you ever asked yourself why the women around here don’t fly off the handle? Posters come here all the time to talk crap — anyone I have ever shown this site to is shocked at how much some men HATE and fear women– and rarely have I seen any women take the bait and get a rise out of it.

    Seriously, some guy has reduced us to “walking vaginas” and body parts on “life support” on this very thread and all we do is laugh.

    This is because we are confident that it’s not true. It’s just some lame horsepucky. Sound and fury that signifies NOTHING.

    Why are you so threatened by an anonymous moronic attitude with a hate-on? Unless you already believe it and it justifies that belief on some level?

    That to me is far more telling.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    LOL Lokland, I just don’t know how you manage to ALWAYS perceive discourses as negative.
    I got from Susan words an observation regarding immigrants and expatriates in general, not specifically “sexual” expatriates/immigrants. People migrate for all types of reasons, political rife, economic downturn, disaster zones; it is only the manosphere who talks about sexual migration so a very negligible segment. If we have to consider all the people who suffered from these catastrophes “losers who can’t get”, then that seems pretty unfortunate, and it is not what was being said in those comments, at least not in mine.

    I don’t even know why you’d feel concerned about this since you didn’t follow that “sexual” migration route and professed the attached threats. So chill out, it is not all about you!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @jon

    Good to hear that things are going well for you. However, isn’t your argument merely the mirror image of the “I got screwed in my divorce, therefore there should be reform” argument? If other people shouldn’t generalize from their personal experiences then perhaps you shouldn’t either.

    Guess you missed my point. I’d support changing clearly unfair laws in my home state of CA if sufficient facts were presented that demonstrated said unfairness. I don’t care what people advocate in their own spare time. I just question why they choose to do so here, without any tangible facts to make their case. Any judge or legislature would want some data before rendering a decision or amending the law.

    Back to the substance of this issue, maybe you should go back and read this article very closely, if you haven’t already:
    http://www.newgeography.com/content/002203-divorce-and-demographics-state

    WRT those states with the highest divorce rates (Midwest, Rocky Mountains, Deep South), not only is there no marriage strike in progress, folks also have high re-marriage rates. I haven’t read about any mass movements to change divorce laws in these states, if they’re even perceived as being unfair. And these are the some of the MOST conservative, red-blooded American men in the whole country. If they’re not up-in-arms over the issue, why the hell should I be?

    Speaking of clearly archaic and unfair laws in need of addressing in one’s own backyard, here’s one that blew my mind. Care to give an opinion on this?
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/01/rape-case-voiding-involving-sleeping-woman-called-bizarre-.html

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Gin Martini & others, re couples spending at a level which precludes SAHM’ing….

    A lot of this is driven by the dysfunctional education system…there are lots of places in America where you really don’t want your kid(s) to go to the local public school. So your choice is to either pay for private school, or pay the costs of moving to a neighborhood with better schools.

    Then there is the need to save for college, where costs have been driven out of sight by administrative bloat, “edifice complex” construction, million-dollar presidential salaries and multimillion dollar coaching salaries, etc.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “Have you ever asked yourself why the women around here don’t fly off the handle?”

    No, I don’t think this statement is entirely true. Women can fly off the handle as well as men they just do it in a less direct way.

    “Why are you so threatened by an anonymous moronic attitude with a hate-on? Unless you already believe it and it justifies that belief on some level?”

    Not. No.
    You are suggesting that by arguing against what I believe is an injustice or falsehood makes that injustice or falsehood justifiable or true.

    That is ridiculous and I will not be shamed into accepting such an argument.

    @Mireile

    ” don’t even know why you’d feel concerned about this since you didn’t follow that “sexual” migration route and professed the attached threats. ”

    Thats because I am not a woman (and/or you are not a man, either or really).
    I can believe an injustice is wrong without being effected by the people trying to enforce such an injustice (less likely for women who are more subject to solipsism).

    I believe the argument that all men who expat are ‘losers who can’t get laid’ is invalid and based entirely on anecdata which is subject to bias.

    Note: I know no one who has personally gone about the strategy as it is being discussed here.

    As an alternative example (which will also be directed at Jackie).
    I believe it is wrong for a woman to be raped (men as well obviously) even though it is impossible (highly unlikely) that I myself will be raped.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    “I believe the argument that all men who expat are ‘losers who can’t get laid’ is invalid and based entirely on anecdata which is subject to bias.”

    Nobody said that. Only YOU called them losers so you have to be careful as not to attribute words to people who never said anything of the sort. You are arguing against yourself here.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    As to the stats, I’m not sure what you’re trying to show.

    Whoops, sorry. I should have clarified, as my reasoning was counter-intuitive. I wasn’t looking at the % “ever” divorced/separated and drawing my conclusion; I was looking at the % *never* divorced/separated. If differences in income between spouses was a strong incentive to file for divorce as you’ve argued, significant differences should be seen: the % never D/S should be lower for spouses with larger income differences, and higher for spouses who earn similar incomes. As such, there doesn’t appear to be much difference between any of the relative income groupings. Make sense?

    As to the sample, yes it’s small, but randomly-selected. I prefer surveys in excess of 1,500 hits (the statistically-preferred threshold). The GSS has been asking 50,000 different randomly selected people the same questions (hundreds in fact, on dozens of topics) every year for over 30 years and tabulating the responses. For this particular question, the response rate was small, but it’s better than nothing.

  • JP

    @Mirelle:

    “My point is the current consumerist lifestyle endorsed by most americans and their government does not allow them to live on one income. It might be possible, but the baseline these days is what is being considered, even if it actually contains a lot of BS.”

    Most Americans neither have nor will have a college degree.

    In other news, North Carolina has increased it’s *high school graduation rate* from 70% to 80%.

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/02/2241188/north-carolina-grad-rate-rises.html

    It’s performed this feat by no longer giving bad grades.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JP

    Most Americans neither have nor will have a college degree.

    Really?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png

    If we include those who have earned an associates degree, it’s at ~40% today. Care to make a $ bet on that *not* hitting 50% in the next couple of decades? :wink:

  • Jackie

    @LL, Mireille

    Well, Mireille already said it in her post #356, I will only add this:

    1) This appears to be a pattern with you, LL, to infer some personal affront from the comments of others, where none exists. I remember it happening the last time maybe 6 weeks ago? You whip yourself into a rather angry frenzy, appear to become too emotional to maintain discourse and make insulting remarks to the hostess, among others.

    2) Those truly concerned about changing injustice tend to find more constructive means than leaving anonymous comments on blogs. They also know they need to stay rational and not give in to emotional outbursts. Not to mention the ability to take feedback and cooperate with others.

    (As an aside, this is why I never worry about a Manosphere “revolt” ever taking place IRL, not to mention how truly fringe the movement is.)
    ===
    LL, your anger is hurting you more than anyone else here. Most of us are going to turn off the computer and forget this thread.

    It may be of service for you to understand the source of this issue. None of us have unlimited energy, time or cognition. Non-constructive anger tends to waste a whole lot of all three.

  • Guavaberry

    As always, it is almost impossible to me to keep up with the thread or know if this has been commented before, but…

    How much does girl game have to do with social circles and environment?

    At least in my university that plays a big role. If you’re a sorority girl with a major like education or psychology, you might be an 8 with a pleasing personality but you’re gonna have to settle big time due to the gender ratio or the fact that greek life tremendously favours guys in the dating market.

    If you’re in a major like engineering or computer science, even if you’re overweight, unpleasant, not feminine and below average in looks, you can easily get sexual attention and long term relationships with very good looking and intelligent guys.

    Sometimes you’re not getting the attention you could be getting simply because of your social circle.

  • Emily

    Guavaberry speaks the truth. Location, location, location.

  • Anacaona

    Sometimes you’re not getting the attention you could be getting simply because of your social circle.
    +1000

  • Guavaberry

    Speaking from experience, you can be “hot”, femenine with a pleasing personality but nobody ever approaches you because of your social circle or lack of a social life.

    I usually don’t get manosphere guys who complain about hot chicks having everything so easy.

  • Gin Martini

    Jackie, even I’m annoyed at the “walking vagina” type of attitude, and I am hardly one to criticize of the sphere as all bad. Sheesh. I love my mom and wife and daughter.

    I think reality is indeed lot worse/riskier for men than most men realize, and it’s not as perfect and happy-crappy for men as feminists insist — but it’s not as nearly bad as MRAs think.

    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right…

  • Bells

    Re: “Losers who can’t get laid”: white male seeking third world women

    To play the role of a devil’s advocate… what if the type of men who travel to a country, with third world conditions, to find a “vagina with utility” are usually men who can’t get laid?

    The man may have very low SMV in America and, honestly, will get more bang for his buck by searching out those types of women. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with his actions. In turn, the third world woman will be able to satisfy a small portion of her hypergamy by entering into a relationship with a white male (who technically has the highest SMV rank amongst all other ethnic men.(Unfair but it is what it is..))

    There’s a documentary online created by a chinese-american woman called “Seeking Asian Female.” The film is about white men who travel to third world conditions to find these type of women : a vagina with (expected) submissive utility. The creator of the documentary, she herself, is married to a white male. So if there is any bias on perspective, it will be much lower than if she were a white female married to a white male or a white male married to an asian female..

    The main character of the documentary is a much older white male (i think he’s in his early 50s?) seeking to find a relationship online with much younger chinese woman (20s to very early 30s). From the perspective of a typical American woman, the male character has very low SMV because he’s older, makes very low income, not good-looking, is divorced with kids, and seems set on his own ways from living alone for a long time.

    I, personally, cannot confidently say that there ever was a true love connection between the two characters because the young chinese woman knew very little English and the older white male knew very little Chinese.
    To communicate, they relied on online translators and the chinese-american director (she only knows a small amount of chinese) to act as a translator.

    Nevertheless, they both got what they needed. The older white male got sex with a young body, a (sort of) companion, and someone to clean and cook. The young asian woman gets: a white male, a better life than what she could ever have in China, a (sort of) companion, and a green card.

    To be honest, I went into the film expecting to laugh and cringe at ridiculous stereotypical scenarios (and I did..) But I also left with a new sense of sympathy and well-wishes for the marriage between the two characters because I now believe that everyone deserves to find “love” in the best way they possibly can. Anyways, don’t want to spoil everything! The documentary should be up online for free until June 2, if anyone wants to watch.

    Here is a trailer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3kbGrQe17cU

    And here’s the full documentary:
    http://www.klru.org/episode/independent-lens/seeking-asian-female/

  • Jackie

    @Gin Martini

    Gin, you may well be right! I think part of this is I showed my brother HUS. He mentioned the general premise to my dad, who is even MORE retrograde than I am (he still writes me a letter every week!).

    His concern is that this some dark, Orwellian thing: To be assigning the worth of human beings by the greek alphabet and arabic numerals. It’s hard for me to describe in words how absolutely opposed this is to his worldview.

    I think we are all trying to navigate this confusing world we are living in right now. It;s very much like the joke about the blind men trying to describe an elephant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

  • Marc

    I have traveled/lived in 30 countries for the last 6+ years as a single (half the time) male. I have not been back to the U.S. during this time. So, I consider myself a professional on the expat subject.
    .
    Sorry guys, I have to agree with the women on this one. Nearly all the men Ive met over the years that come to underdevloped countries looking for women are a little “off”. Most are way “off”. They are socially awkward, strange personalities, cheap or huge spenders, not confident, older, balder, shorter, fatter, creepier, bitter, perverted, no sense of humor etc. The list is endless.
    .
    Lets keep it this way! When normal guys figure out how good it is outside the U.S., its over.

  • Jackie

    @Bells

    OMG that trailer is FASCINATING. Saved the link and will be watching soon. Many thanks!! :-)

    PS: How is your Girl Game Challenge and things with the BF? 8-)

  • BuenaVista

    @331 SW.

    “Wait, I’ve always heard that under VAWA you can call the police with a claim of abuse and have the spouse arrested on the spot without evidence. And get an eviction, restraining order etc. as well.”

    This is correct. If a wife wishes to divorce a man who does not wish to divorce, and he refuses to abandon his home and children, a wife can just call the sheriff and have him arrested for actions no one saw and for which there is no evidence.

  • Jonathan

    Mireille 328:

    No. I’m basing my argument on the fact that women initiate divorce at a higher rate than men, and on my own observations which are consistent with those of most men (and many women) I’ve heard discuss these issues. If you have a better argument let’s hear it. Instead you seem eager to find reasons to dismiss the case for reform and the extreme dissatisfaction many men have with marriage under the current system.

    What I’m exposing is that you have insufficient information, not dismissing your point. It is a problem but you’re citing anecdote as evidence, can’t hardly account for the whole story.

    What additional information is needed to determine if the legal system creates marginal incentives for women to divorce? How would you get such information? I see revealed preferences: women initiate most divorces. I infer from this fact that more women than men think divorce is in their interest. Why do they think this?

    I’m not trying to solve all problems. I see a systemic flaw and suggest reforms would help by making incentives to divorce more balanced between the sexes. A lot of men (and women) agree with me. Why do they think this way? Are they misperceiving what is going on? I think the simplest explanation is that there really is a problem.

    My friends didn’t have issues because of their fear. They had fear because the legal system incentivizes wives to blow up their families if they are dissatisfied. You don’t seem to have a problem with that.

    You’re assuming a lot of things you didn’t even bother to think about. What I want to know is whether or not your male friends would actually stay in a marriage where they are dissatisfied just for the sake of not divorcing. You seem to think men don’t ask for divorce at all. I contended that the fear of losing their marriage and partner made them more aware of the risks and therefore proactive in solving issues. You don’t seem to understand how the fear of failure can push people at performing better.

    So in your view “performing better” means the husband does what the wife wants. Holding a gun to someone’s head can motivate performance too, but that’s no reason to grant one member of a partnership license to use force against the other member. You seem to assume that the friends I mentioned would have worse marriages if their wives didn’t hold a figurative divorce gun to their heads. But if one partner stays in the marriage, does what the other partner wants, and is miserable that is a lousy outcome.

    If the wife is unhappy it’s the husband’s fault.

    …and I can’t believe I let you drag me into this!

    I know! You’ve never done anything like this before ;)

  • jlw

    “Loser who can’t get laid.”

    What should the “losers” do if they cannot raise their SMV to the level that will get them paired with women that they, in turn, find attractive?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What should the “losers” do if they cannot raise their SMV to the level that will get them paired with women that they, in turn, find attractive?

      I gave that advice in the post – lower your standards. Reset your attraction triggers. Or fly solo.

  • Jonathan

    Megaman 353:

    Guess you missed my point. I’d support changing clearly unfair laws in my home state of CA if sufficient facts were presented that demonstrated said unfairness. I don’t care what people advocate in their own spare time. I just question why they choose to do so here, without any tangible facts to make their case. Any judge or legislature would want some data before rendering a decision or amending the law.

    I missed your point about your being willing to support the changing of laws under some conditions.

    But what tangible facts do you need? Is lifetime alimony as in FL reasonable in this day and age? (The legislature just passed a bill to eliminate alimony. The governor vetoed it. It’s seems not unlikely that a similar bill will become law in the near future.) Do you think divorce among couples with children isn’t too frequent? Do you think no-fault divorce doesn’t make divorce more likely? I see injustice to men under the current system. It isn’t routine but it happens enough to be noticeable. I’ve read horror stories, mostly about men. No one disputes them. People who favor continuing the current legal regime generally rationalize them as the price of protecting women and/or children.

    The New Geography article you linked to is interesting. I’m not sure what it means. I’d like to see a breakdown of divorce stats by age at time of marriage, age at divorce, length of marriage, race, ethnicity, religious denomination, degree of religious observance, number of children, net worth, and disparities (income, religion, demographics) between spouses. However, I don’t think any of this affects my argument.

    WRT those states with the highest divorce rates (Midwest, Rocky Mountains, Deep South), not only is there no marriage strike in progress, folks also have high re-marriage rates. I haven’t read about any mass movements to change divorce laws in these states, if they’re even perceived as being unfair. And these are the some of the MOST conservative, red-blooded American men in the whole country. If they’re not up-in-arms over the issue, why the hell should I be? [emphasis added]

    As a matter of simple justice. And I disagree that “they” aren’t up in arms over these issues. Some of them are. It’s not most people but I don’t see why that changes anything.

    I don’t know enough to have an opinion about the rape case you link to.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    So in your view “performing better” means the husband does what the wife wants. Holding a gun to someone’s head can motivate performance too, but that’s no reason to grant one member of a partnership license to use force against the other member. You seem to assume that the friends I mentioned would have worse marriages if their wives didn’t hold a figurative divorce gun to their heads. But if one partner stays in the marriage, does what the other partner wants, and is miserable that is a lousy outcome.

    Again, not what I said but you read it that way.
    Dealing with issues doesn’t automatically mean doing what the other wants. Even in some cases, what the other want can be the best choice for the couple, so that is also a real fact. Performing better means listening to your spouse and making sure no major issues threatening your marriage goes unattended. That’s what I meant and that is valid for both male and female. Those who dismiss problems hoping they’ll just “go away” are the ones who get divorced “out of nowhere.”
    I believe you have such a bias in this issue you can only read it as women ruining the system.
    At the end of the day, these men friends of yours have to take responsibility for what they want and/or can do. If they want to remain married, there is a path for that, and if they want to divorce really bad, then they also can do it. Moaning on the internet on the other hand….

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @jon

    Do you think no-fault divorce doesn’t make divorce more likely? I see injustice to men under the current system. It isn’t routine but it happens enough to be noticeable. I’ve read horror stories, mostly about men.

    I’m not sure how to address deficiencies in the no-fault system, for one simple reason: Data on the exact reasons for and prevalence of such divorce are extremely limited. ALL this ground has already been covered around here. You’re not presenting anything new or novel, just complaining. It’s an aspect of life that I’ve been curious about, given some of the outrageous claims that have been made (i.e. women *always* benefit from divorce), but I have ZERO personal stake in the matter.

    Which dovetails back to my point about fear and stupidity. Taking your arguments at face value (others have suggested the same), I ought to be in fear of what my wife might do to me in court, unilaterally and without warning. And I must’ve been stupid for marrying her, given the risk that put me in with current laws so obviously biased against me. Again ironic, considering divorce laws differ state-to-state.

    Such a cynical message will never attract a mass following IRL. It’ll never appeal to the majority of married men who never have or will divorce. It’ll probably never appeal to the 1/2 or more of divorced men who eventually remarry. And it’ll certainly never appeal to women.

    Clear tangible evidence of widespread abuse would do get peoples’ attention. But I’ve yet to see it presented anywhere. There are plenty of conservative media outlets that would run with that story overnight. And as I noted, even in the Bible Belt, there’s neither a marriage strike nor apparent discontent with the state of marriage and divorce.

  • J

    He said he’d never seen so many beautiful 20 year olds. He also said he’d never seen so many haggard 40 year olds. Heavy drinking takes its toll, as does providing for families while feckless husbands drink all day. Most women have teeth missing by 40.

    Yeah, life was hard there, still is. OTOH, I think there is just something about Slavic women that ages poorly anyway (unless they are Hungarian–their cheeckbones hold everything up). EE-American women can be really pretty as young women but sort of doughy past 40 and downright dumpy past 50. The English I like that as well. Remember how georgeous Diana Rigg was on “The Avengers” when we were kids? I saw her on a recent Dr. Who. She must be in her 70s now and looks all of 105.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Remember how georgeous Diana Rigg was on “The Avengers” when we were kids? I saw her on a recent Dr. Who. She must be in her 70s now and looks all of 105.

      I almost had a heart attack when I saw her on Game of Thrones! Neither my husband and I could believe it, she’s an old crone! I don’t know if it’s botched plastic surgery or what, but she was nearly unrecognizable.

  • Bells

    Sorry guys, I have to agree with the women on this one. Nearly all the men Ive met over the years that come to underdevloped countries looking for women are a little “off”. Most are way “off”. They are socially awkward, strange personalities, cheap or huge spenders, not confident, older, balder, shorter, fatter, creepier, bitter, perverted, no sense of humor etc. The list is endless.
    .
    Lets keep it this way! When normal guys figure out how good it is outside the U.S., its over.

    Yeah, I’d actually recommend for these type of men to expat back to the woman’s country in order to live with their new wife/or gf. If the asian woman moves to America instead, she may eventually leave him (if she doesn’t develop a strong sense of loyalty because he is the only person she knows in the country). Once she learns English, she will begin to realize that many other women have better men and better lifestyle than he could ever provide. Plus she is still young and may seek to leave him for greener pastures with a younger man with whom she can bear children with.

    However, if the man permanently moves back to China with her, he will always retain a sense of high status because of his race. And perhaps (if desired) he can even afford to dabble with a few extra female dalliances because the competition from other asian women will be fierce. The life in America for the white male may still result in 50/50 divorce; however a life in Asia will have very little if any possibility of divorce from his wife.

  • Bells

    OMG that trailer is FASCINATING. Saved the link and will be watching soon. Many thanks!! :-)

    PS: How is your Girl Game Challenge and things with the BF?

    It’s going pretty well, thanks for asking :) Admittedly, it is a bit odd to be in a relationship. Since this is my first real relationship, I’m not exactly certain on the template and progress of things. But so far, I’ve been trying to remain laidback and just see how things play out. At times, I’m not sure whether I’m doing too much or too little or expecting too much or too little– it’s all a bit confusing. But I do enjoy spending time with him, it’s fun hanging out together, and it’s really nice to be able to be both the giver and the recipient of affection.

    As for the uh intimacy aspect, definitely going to take a while for uhm things to fit properly. (In retrospect, It’s crazy to me how some virgins can immediately have sex with a man? How does it even go??)

    And also I haven’t been especially paying attention to the Girl Game Challenges (have been taking a break from HUS) but I’m going to see my bf tomorrow so I’ll try to write up a little field report later based on listening

  • J

    The vagina is almost always attached to a woman

    What an interesting life you must lead! Can you describe for us those situations in which it is attached to something/one else?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    One of my online friends graduated in the horror that was the 2009 recession. Softer major, couldn’t find a job, decided to teach English in China.

    Met girl. Tried to get her back to the States. US said no.

    He is now a permanent resident in China.

    Was not a guy who couldn’t get laid in college, just found a girl he really, really, REALLY liked.

    Some girls might as well have “WIFE THIS UP” written on their face. I can remember a handful of such girls…one I saw recently got married, to the same guy that she has been dating since 16, and she was an extraordinarily attractive Southern Belle, quite wealthy too. I know another girl that spent most of college with the same guy, broke up with him (some LDR shit), and has been dating her current BF for….oh…probably two and a half years now…they seem rather successful.

    One was dating the same guy since she was 14, and apparently they recently separated. Very sad.

    One, though…I can’t read that one, well, lol.

    Another, let’s see, dating the same guy since she was a teenager, looks like they finally got married because they had an “oopsies.” She is dating an immigrant from China, and she dresses up as Sailor Moon for Halloween.

    Hmmm…

    The girls that televise these signals, do not seem to be single for long, and they stay off the market for a LONG time. They seem to be dating, uniformly, extraverted, slightly cocky Beta types. Alphas need not apply. They do not have any flash value. They are Girl Next Door approachable and seem to be genuinely kind and passionate.

    Quite often they accumulate Beta Orbiters, but relationship-loyalty functions as 28th-century level SDI-defense.

  • J

    the best book on male sexual satisfaction is written by a gay man, and more women (like, 98% of them) should read it.

    Title?

  • J

    So, basically it’s “You wimmmenz better do what we tell you, or we will go after foreign women instead!!!”.

    It should be clear to anyone why such sentiments aren’t exactly making the panties of American women wet with desire.

    I personally don’t get excited until they threaten to replace women with sexbots….because the sort of guy who would screw a machine is just so sexy.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also, Jackie, re: your dad’s opinions on assigning value.

    We don’t assign value. In the Roissy conception, women assign value, by deciding with whom they will have sex. More broadly speaking, society as a whole is assigning value, not Game-spherists.

    They are just reading the price signals and telling you what is determining the underlying price. And how to improve your bargaining power.

    This might be contrary to his world-view, but oh well. That doesn’t mean HE is right and WE are wrong. My girlfriend also does not think people should be “punished” for past mistakes, but the employment market thinks that if something bad happened to you, then you are bad, and they will not take a chance on you.

    Describing her the problem of re-integrating the long-term unemployed back into the labor force distresses her as much as discussion about N-counts did: she does not understand, morally, how this could even possibly be an issue.

    Doesn’t matter to the economy, though…or the sexual “marketplace.”

  • Anacaona

    Remember how georgeous Diana Rigg was on “The Avengers” when we were kids? I saw her on a recent Dr. Who. She must be in her 70s now and looks all of 105.
    I though you were exaggerating but I googled her and I think she looks too old to play an 105. Mine that was shocking.
    Specially since I was searching for Angela Lansbury and she looks pretty much the same, old and wrinkly of course but I can recognize her and she is more than 10 years older than Rigg. Genetics are as moody as the Greek Gods…

  • Hope

    I’ll just leave this here…the average Asian aging process:

    http://i.imgur.com/2fkqq.jpg

  • Bells

    @ADBG,
    Where* some of your anecdotal evidence in 380 a response to the whole white male/third world asian female discussion?

    If so, I definitely was not including asian women who grew up in America to the discussion. They’re in another unrelated category.

    I bear no ill-will to both types of participants. I think the documentary was great because both subjects were able to seek to find love through the best means possible.

    *excuse me if this is the improper use regarding where vs were, it’s getting late and i can’t think properly

  • J

    This is why a mother gets a job *in a local school system*.
    Match your hours to the children.

    Most jobs in the school system are teaching which contain many invisible hours–planning lessons, correcting papers, entering grades, doing paperwork. Teaching is much less family friendly than people imagine.

  • Bells

    @J,

    What an interesting life you must lead! Can you describe for us those situations in which it is attached to something/one else?

    hahaa, yeah I read this sentence and laughed out loud. But then I realized that a vagina could be created in a post-op transgendered woman who was biologically born a male… or it could be attached to men with one of those atypical genetic deformities, like XXY instead of XY

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @Hope,

    This is too funny!

  • cheching

    Hi Susan,

    This post could not have come at a better time. I just turned 32, and I know I wasted my youth on boyfriends that were completely unsuitable for marriage. I’m no 10, but I think I’m pretty well placed on the SMV spectrum. Even after adjusting for the propensity to project, I’d like to think that I possess many traits that men would find desirable in a partner.

    So my question to you is, how does one increase her MMV? Or at least get men to recognize it?

    Anyway, I love your blog. Keep up the great work!

    Thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @cheching

      I didn’t forget you – I’ve decided to write a post addressing your question about cultivating higher MMV. Stay tuned!

  • Bells

    @jlw,

    “Loser who can’t get laid.”
    What should the “losers” do if they cannot raise their SMV to the level that will get them paired with women that they, in turn, find attractive?

    Definitely not a champ with a lot of experience in the SMV but perhaps they should try to lower their standards? You don’t need a pretty woman to live a happy life..

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    But then I realized that a vagina could be created in a post-op transgendered woman who was biologically born a male… or it could be attached to men with one of those atypical genetic deformities, like XXY instead of XY

    I’m sure that’s the type of Vag these guys are going for.

  • J

    @Bells

    Yep…..and I’m all ears.

    @Ana

    Still, that EE or NE lack of melanin is deadly. My BFF since eight is half-
    WASP, half Polish. We are six months and she looks significantly older. I’m glad to be olive complected.

  • Bells

    I’ll just leave this here…the average Asian aging process:
    http://i.imgur.com/2fkqq.jpg

    It’s kind of funny that asian women and black women are best known for their ability to retain their youth despite the advancements of old age. I wonder why? They both have different complexities and different melanin concentrations..

  • J
  • Lokland

    “I’m sure that’s the type of Vag these guys are going for.”

    Blatant misandry.

    @ADBG

    “The girls that televise these signals, do not seem to be single for long, and they stay off the market for a LONG time. They seem to be dating, uniformly, extraverted, slightly cocky Beta types. Alphas need not apply. They do not have any flash value. They are Girl Next Door approachable and seem to be genuinely kind and passionate.”

    Mind blown.

    @Jackie

    “1) This appears to be a pattern with you, LL, to infer some personal affront from the comments of others, where none exists. ”

    New rule.
    If you want to hear something other than an insult do not misinterpret something I have said in such a way that you state the exact opposite.

    I said before and will say agin. Not personally offended.

    “2) Those truly concerned about changing injustice tend to find more constructive means than leaving anonymous comments on blogs.”

    But the only place it is occurring is here. Outside of the net I have only ever heard of one woman insult a man for marrying a foreigner and she is literally fuckin’ nuts.

    HUS is becoming a wonderful place for women to insult and deride men whom are not following their life script. Shame and insults seem to be flying much more freely recently.

    Too bad because the guys that are still here are a million times nicer than those previous.

    I’m sure there is a manosphere meme in there somewhere.

    “LL, your anger is hurting you more than anyone else here. Most of us are going to turn off the computer and forget this thread.”

    I’m not angry and is the us of an ad hom admission that you don’t have an argument against?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      If you want to hear something other than an insult do not misinterpret something I have said in such a way that you state the exact opposite.

      That’s ironic, considering I’ve been asking you to stop doing this for weeks now.

      HUS is becoming a wonderful place for women to insult and deride men whom are not following their life script.

      That’s nonsense. We couldn’t care less who wants to expatriate to find a wife. Godspeed! We just don’t care to have gratuitous insults hurled our way.

      Why do you not find it misogynist that a man has come here describing vaginas as a commodity, the only part of a woman with any worth? Portraying this maladjusted individual as a victim is preposterous.

  • Lokland

    @Bells

    “I wonder why? They both have different complexities and different melanin concentrations..”

    Black- higher melanin equals less skin damage from the sun
    Asian- extremely healthy diet prevents internal damage from occurring (if you have ever seen old Asian women who grew up in N. America you can see they age almost as poorly as others). Another is their relatively low T/high E which is a health benefit (and possibly anti-aging, can’t recall atm.) Plus some lifestyle–ex. my wife wears more clothes at the beach than she does normally and I think I caught her hissing at the sun once.

    Keep in mind Black and Asian guys also tend to age quite well as well.

    Just my 2 cents, pure speculation not entirely sure.

  • BuenaVista

    J381. It’s really just a quick start guide for good girls, on reflection. But I’m surprised, continually, at how many women need to RTFM. (I probably select for good girls.)

    http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Tips-For-Straight-Women/dp/B0028N7370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369048038&sr=8-1&keywords=sex+men+by+a+gay+man

  • Liz

    I know this thread isn’t about abusive relationships, but since you asked…

    @Susan

    Wait, I’ve always heard that under VAWA you can call the police with a claim of abuse and have the spouse arrested on the spot without evidence. And get an eviction, restraining order etc. as well. Can you clarify?

    Well, first of all, I’m not a lawyer or police officer. I’m not sure about VAWA, and laws may vary by state. Generally speaking, ANYBODY can call the police and make any claim and possibly get someone arrested. The claim must be credible; the police officer must have “probable cause” to believe a crime has been committed. (This can be a sworn statement, bruises, evidence of a scuffle, witnesses, etc.)
    Younger readers may not remember that domestic violence laws were enacted because for too long, such assaults were informally considered to be personal or civil, rather than criminal, matters, and police were reluctant to make arrests. Enough women got killed by their husbands to force a change in the laws, and police must now treat such cases like any other assault. (The same penalties for making a false report apply, of course.)
    It’s possible law enforcement has swung a bit far in the other direction, aggressively arresting men when someone reports a disturbance. My arresting officer said the department had “zero tolerance” for domestic abuse.
    Once you have an arrest, a restraining order is fairly easy (in my state) although it is temporary, and the other party has a right to challenge it. Again, you must testify under oath.

    Having said that, yes, there’s no doubt that some women get away with false reports, and I’d be the last person to defend them.

    and BuenaVista:

    This is correct. If a wife wishes to divorce a man who does not wish to divorce, and he refuses to abandon his home and children, a wife can just call the sheriff and have him arrested for actions no one saw and for which there is no evidence.

    Well, technically, statements ARE evidence. It’s a difficult judgment call, I admit, and officers may indeed err on the side of safety. Again, however, I think they take a very dim view of false reports, as do I. As a society, it may be necessary to accept a certain number of false allegations in order to protect the truly defenseless woman whose life is threatened by an abusive spouse. That’s another discussion, of course, but I’ll add my experience below.

  • Liz

    @Lokland

    You coulfd have left, no?
    I think its ridiculous to be able teo remove someone from their home based on an allegation that has not been proven.

    It was actually MY house, acquired before marriage. He had the income and ability to live elsewhere; I did not. Even if I had left, I didn’t consider him a fit parent for our daughter.
    I was not blameless, of course, but he was an acting-out alcoholic who had stopped caring about anything, even himself. The emotional, psychological, and financial abuse had become constant. HE HIMSELF said he was not happy and planned to leave as soon as our daughter turned 18; yet he would not separate when I asked.

    My only legal option was to petition for sole occupancy, which required a 30-day eviction notice. I was afraid what he’d do in the meantime, and was not willing to make a false report, of course. (In retrospect, I might have still had grounds for a restraining order, but I don’t know for sure.)

    Then he tried to kill me, and wrote his own ticket to jail. I hear you saying “well you SHOULD have left” but he had never been violent so I didn’t feel threatened, and to this day I think he was possessed by a demon. ;-)

    I do now understand why women don’t leave abusive spouses. It becomes normal for them.

  • RealityBites.com

    Susan,
    I am glad there is lots of debate on this topic on your blog. Open debate is the first stage in change. I guess that I never mentioned to you and the blog that I am a military veteran. As such, it greatly upsets me that you would even suggest that I expatriate the country that I defended and lost many friends defending. One of the things we fought for was freedom of speech. Something most of the world does not have and one if the many things that makes America great.

    Nor do I appreciate your reference to lobbing grenades at civilians. Had you ever seen the damage a grenade can do, you would not have made such an insensitive comment.

    You are more than welcome to pick up a rifle, two radios and 60 pounds of gear then go into combat like I did. Maybe then you would understand what defending this country is and why even the suggestion that you leave it is painful.

    If you disapprove of my comments that is fine by me. I have never received a warm reception on your blog. I still firmly believe that economics is not the correct tool to use when evaluating and predicting sexual behavior. Economics was not designed to do this. Placing market values on people is a poor way to judge them. People are much more complex than commodities.

    Why not focus not the real issues that men and women have with each other? Or is it just easier to lob insults and generalizations at each other? After reading Dr. Helen’s book and some of the MGTOW websites, I believe that the sexes have never been farther apart on there expectations of each other and are drifting farther apart – no one is listening. We will reap a very bitter harvest if this continues. Both side preaching to their respective choirs is not working.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Reality Bites

      Placing market values on people is a poor way to judge them. People are much more complex than commodities.

      Didn’t you say that women are nothing more than vaginas, a commodity?

      Why not focus not the real issues that men and women have with each other? Or is it just easier to lob insults and generalizations at each other?

      Again, I don’t know how you can make this statement in light of your original comments on this thread? Were you impaired when you made them? Have you had a change of heart?

      I believe that the sexes have never been farther apart on there expectations of each other and are drifting farther apart – no one is listening. We will reap a very bitter harvest if this continues. Both side preaching to their respective choirs is not working.

      You’re preaching to the choir right now. HUS is the ONLY site where both sexes discuss and debate these issues productively. If you want to really address the problem, you’ll need to rid the sphere of sociopaths blathering about femcentrism.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Bells

    Where* some of your anecdotal evidence in 380 a response to the whole white male/third world asian female discussion?

    If so, I definitely was not including asian women who grew up in America to the discussion. They’re in another unrelated category.

    I bear no ill-will to both types of participants. I think the documentary was great because both subjects were able to seek to find love through the best means possible.

    *excuse me if this is the improper use regarding where vs were, it’s getting late and i can’t think properly

    No response specifically to anyone, really. Just wanted to add in a possibly useful story that popped into my mind. I was away all weekend and found some of the discussion a tad amusing ;)
    Like Lokland, I don’t know any guys who specifically went overseas to go wife-shopping. I would think this kind of thing is accidental in most situations, but what do I know? If a guy were actually going to go wife-shopping overseas, and I had no other information about him, I would assume lower-SMV unless proven otherwise.
    Being lower-SMV, of course, isn’t a bad thing. Half of us are below average frustrated chumps. Leveraging your status to land a higher SMV AND MMV woman overseas seems like a no-brainer arbitrage.
    Actually, the lower-end of the SMV spectrum in the US seems to consist of a lot of overweight and obese women. I would absolutely leverage for an overseas woman if I were to otherwise date someone obese.

    I would also caution that being low-SMV does not necessarily imply low-SMV FOR YOU and certainly does not imply low MMV. BB is suggesting that high-SMV, conventionally hot guys might be coming at a premium in this marketplace, and possibly habituated to a lot of behaviors that are MMV-effacing.
    Building character in a mate is a lot harder impossible compared to finding a reasonably attractive man and helping him improve his SMV.
    A rather significant arbitrage, actually, I would think.

    Of course, if everyone could do this, there wouldn’t be an arbitrage.

    @ Lok

    Mind blown.

    Not sure if sarc? It certainly does cut a shade different than the traditional man-o-sphere meme of “girls are hypergamous, they go after the hottest guy, ride the carousel, and then marry a provider beta. There are no good ones yet.”
    I certainly do know some good ones, but they are essentially inactive in the Meet Market. I guess they could concievably command some kind of premium in some markets, but they have a strong revealed preference for stable relationships.
    Unforutunately, because they are inactive in the Meet Market, and in relatonships all the time, they are about as relevant as Martians for the single man. The normal women you run into may outnumber single unicorns dozens to one.

  • JP

    @Megaman

    “If we include those who have earned an associates degree, it’s at ~40% today. Care to make a $ bet on that *not* hitting 50% in the next couple of decades? ”

    Well, I suppose that the important thing is that student loan debt is now an excellent source of tax revenue.

    “Business has been good for the federal government when it comes to student loans.

    Over the past five years, student loans have generated profits of $120 billion for the Department of Education.

    And the latest projections from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) put the take from student loans for the 2013 fiscal year at $48.6 billion – helped along by a change in 2010 that eliminated the middleman and made the Education Department the direct lender for all government-backed loans.

    It means the government will reap more in profits from student loans this year than any of the nation’s largest corporations. Last year, for example, the most profitable company was ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM), which reported income of $44.9 billion.

    The money is rolling in partly because the Education Department has stepped up efforts to collect on delinquent loans, but mostly because the U.S. government can borrow money far more cheaply than the students to whom it is giving the loans.

    The government’s student loans now carry an interest rate of 3.4%, which has proved plenty lucrative.

    But unless Congress acts soon, the interest rate on government student loans will double to 6.8% as of July 1. (The temporary 3.4% rate was supposed to expire last July, but last year Congress extended it for one year.)”

    http://moneymorning.com/2013/05/16/how-student-loans-became-a-120-billion-government-bonanza/

  • BuenaVista

    “Well, technically, statements ARE evidence.”

    Good luck securing a felony conviction for armed robbery, on the sole basis of a single person making a single uncorroborated statement to police about someone she dislikes. It’s good enough for VAWA or child services charges, however.

    “As a society, it may be necessary to accept a certain number of false allegations in order to protect the truly defenseless woman whose life is threatened by an abusive spouse.”

    Interesting. What’s the number of malicious prosecutions that you deem good for society?

    And does this inform your perspective on capital punishment, other felonies, and female-administered child abuse (which is the dominant kind)? Must break a few eggs to make an omelette, eh?

  • Escoffier

    BV, from what little I have looked into it (not much), in cases where the woman has the man arrested for DV when there is no other obvious evidence, the charges are usually dismissed. Or, if it goes further, the man is acquitted. However, making the initial charge can help the woman gain the upper hand at the outset of the divorce proceedings. Even if the man is not convicted in the criminal process, the charge/arrest can still be used against him in family court. Plus, simply getting him out of the house with the law as her instrument is an enormous advantage, it means that in addition to everything else, he has to fight that action and its attendant stigma, or else accept the stigma (and its attendant disadvantages) and find another place to live, meanwhile of course continuing to pay whatever he was paying for the old place where is barred by law from entering.

    The point of this little wrinkle in the DV law, as I understand it, is that those who advocated for it say that women often recant once the police show up, out of fear, Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever. So, in order that true/just charges not be ignored, and in order to protect the safety of a woman who recants but might actually be in danger, the remedy is simply to arrest every accused (male) no matter what.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Liz

    I know this thread isn’t about abusive relationships, but since you asked…

    Well, it isn’t about frivolous divorce either, but that preoccupation always seems to come up intentionally.

    If I read the underlying suggestion others have made… if a man denies an allegation of abuse, that’s means the woman is lying? Hmmm, I’m wondering if anybody around here has even 1 year of law school education. Because I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable acting like an online armchair judge/jury/executioner. I have read that cell phone records, and cell phone cameras/video have gone a long way in documenting evidence of abuse, and avoiding he said/she said situations.

    Sympathies… anonymous people who don’t know you questioning how you handled difficult personal matters like that. Where I come from, those are called “paper bag opinions”.

  • BuenaVista

    @410.

    “I have read that cell phone records, and cell phone cameras/video have gone a long way in documenting evidence of abuse, and avoiding he said/she said situations.”

    That’s called evidence. You have reading comprehension issues. The discussion is about a single uncorroborated statement being sufficient to arrest a man on felony charges or remove a child from his parent. In this one domain, and only if the accuser is female. Your third paragraph is just an ad hominem, which suggests an inability to reason.

  • J

    Jackie: This appears to be a pattern with you, LL, to infer some personal affront from the comments of others, where none exists. ”

    LL: New rule.
    If you want to hear something other than an insult do not misinterpret something I have said in such a way that you state the exact opposite.

    Lok, sometimes tone is difficult to read over the net. I think I myself may come off a little nasty or superior sometimes. I will concur with Jackie though that your tone does come off as angry. I don’t think she’s trying to find insult where none exists though. You often sound angry and also a bit obscure to me. Something is getting lost on translation. It’s hard to know what you mean sometimes. No snark, just feedback on your writing style.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    So, in order that true/just charges not be ignored, and in order to protect the safety of a woman who recants but might actually be in danger, the remedy is simply to arrest every accused (male) no matter what.

    Again, laws vary from state-to-state. Tragedy tends to set a legal precedent in these cases:
    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/New-tool-removes-guns-from-domestic-violence-4170577.php
    Note the third paragraph. I guess she should have asked for him to be removed, huh?

  • JP

    “Hmmm, I’m wondering if anybody around here has even 1 year of law school education. ”

    I’m a law-talking guy.

    I don’t have any opinions here, though.

    It depends on the jurisdiction you are in because the practical legal environment is quite different in different places.

  • JP

    I can translate Lokland.

    I think that part of the problem here is that people can’t speak Lokland.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @BV
    No reading comprehension issue or lack of reasoning here. I was responding to Liz’s actual situation.

    Do you have an actual case to cite, or is it just a hypothetical situation that bothers you? You certainly don’t sound like a lawyer.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JP
    Thanks, that’s what I’ve always understood. And I have no legal background.

    I doubt that important nuance matters to those making sweeping generalizations…

  • Jackie

    @ADBG

    “We don’t assign value.”
    ===
    Are you saying the 1-10 scale does not exist then? That is what he was talking about: The dehumanization of another human by reducing their worth to a numerical value.

    How do you feel about your beloved Mom being evaluated and reduced in such a way?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seriously, the last thing we need at HUS is a dose of Jed Abraham. Without commenting on his abilities or knowledge, HUS is simply not a forum for the MRM. And the characterization of his description as “typical” is simply not true. The typical divorce is mediated and uneventful, with both parties professing satisfaction. Comment deleted.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    Lokland, wow, how presumptuous is it to issue a “new rule” around here? I wasn’t aware that this was your place and Susan was totally fronting for you! ;)

    Secondly, when it appears that everyone else is sharing my interpretation of your post, perhaps is it time to reconsider your words?
    ===
    You write of HUS as a place where men receive gratuitous insults dished out by women who just don’t appreciate how much better they are compared to past commenters.

    This is FASCINATING. The people I’ve shown HUS to are all of the viewpoint that there is ever-present misogyny here and the men are continually steamrolling the conversation on what is supposed to be a site for young women.

    Remember Iggles, Ion, Courtley, Charm for starters? Have you noticed that they all left? And there seems to be a steady influx of men with grievances here, and a continual decrease in female commenters?

    Why do you think that is, LL? Are men complete and utter masochists, that they deliberately seek out abuse the way only HUS can deliver? ;)

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    I just think LL likes pity parties. He always finds a way to bring the attention back to him, even in cases where he has no stake and is not concerned by the issue. Case in point, he managed to make that American men looking for foreign brides about him when this isn’t even his life story or experience, and acted insulted in the process. Please…

  • Sassy6519

    So, my sister drug me to a Christian singles speed dating event at the church that she attends. I agreed to go in order to be moral support for her. I was surprised that I wasn’t struck down by lightning while entering the establishment, considering that I am not religious in any sense of the word.

    Anyway, I had never participated in a speed dating event before, so I was a little overwhelmed by the entire process. I talked to 10-20 men, and we all had 10 minute dates/interviews with each other. At the end of the event, we were allowed to give our contact information to 5 people that we were interested in.

    Out of all of the guys I talked to, there was only one guy that I had a particularly strong physical and mental attraction to. He actually made me laugh a few times, and he seemed like he had his life together. Even though I was allowed to pick 5 different guys, I only chose him. He chose me as well, so we had a mutual match. We’ll see how things go though.

    Surprisingly, he still chose me after I was very honest with him. He knows that I’m not religious, even though he himself is, and I told him that I have a tendency to be flighty and bolt from relationships. I let him know that if anything were to come of this, things would need to go extremely slowly so that I don’t freak myself out. He seemed to have liked the honesty.

    One of the more memorable speed dates I went on involved this guy who was probably between 45-55. He asked me a few questions only, then proceeded to compliment my appearance and lament women entirely at the same time. He actually referred to himself as a “nice guy”, and proceeded to say that he’s so sick of hearing women say that they want nice guys, but date “badboys” anyway. He told me of his attempts and subsequent failures at online dating, stating that women only cared about a man’s photos instead of taking the time to get to know the man instead. Throughout the date, I was really tempted to start discussing ideas of the SMP and SMV with him, but I decided it would be better to keep my mouth shut. Instead, I just smiled and nodded.

    I had a feeling such talk would open a can of worms that I wasn’t prepared to tackle.

  • BuenaVista

    @416.

    Now you’re just trolling. The conditions (as well as others of similar ilk) I described exist in law and practice in Virginia and New York. I don’t know to what extent they exist in Iowa, where I also live.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, understood. I don’t know much about Abraham’s reputation in MRM circles; I was actually given one of his books by the female AP attorney I referenced in a previous post, and told to read it.

    That said, even some arch-feminists like Betty Friedan and Maureen Freely feel that the family law system is very unfair to men, particularly guys who want to be good fathers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That said, even some arch-feminists like Betty Friedan and Maureen Freely feel that the family law system is very unfair to men, particularly guys who want to be good fathers.

      For years I have accepted at face value that family law is unfair to men. I still suspect it is. Certainly we have heard some anecdotal evidence here suggesting that. OTOH, Munson believed that was hogwash, and the daughter of my BFF is now a divorce attorney and disputes this claim with some force. I would like some factual information in the form of data, but have seen none. Even the men who appear to feel most strongly about this issue can not provide it, apparently. In a recent discussion here on frivolous divorce, we established that the incidence of it may be 2-10%, at which point the men suggested even 2% is too high a risk.

      What’s missing from the conversation is perspective. Your calling that Jed A piece a description of a typical divorce is a good example – when one statistic I have managed to find is that 95% of all divorces are uncontested and resolved quietly via mediation or with respective attorneys.

      You may think that 1% risk, or 5% risk, or 50% risk are all equally unacceptable, but I do not. I don’t feel that it is possible to discuss family law intelligently without knowing what those risks are, and what percentage of men suffer under current family law.

  • SayWhaat

    Remember Iggles, Ion, Courtley, Charm for starters? Have you noticed that they all left? And there seems to be a steady influx of men with grievances here, and a continual decrease in female commenters?

    Why do you think that is, LL? Are men complete and utter masochists, that they deliberately seek out abuse the way only HUS can deliver?

    The tenor and quality of the commentariat at HUS has improved, but not by much. I have to say that I don’t believe it is a coincidence that the women who remain are all tough cookies.

    However, there comes a point when you have to ask yourself, what am I getting out of this? I’ve come to realize that in my (offline) life, I have a tendency to cater to those with emotional problems. It’s not necessarily charitable, considering that by feeding them, I run out of energy to turn attention towards my own needs. No doubt that is unhealthy; it’s another form of running away from my own problems, instead of confronting them head-on.

    I am in the process of exorcising these one-way relationships from my life, and I am starting to think that my participation at HUS is another negative experience. The women here freely offer advice and empathy, and I’ve come to realize that is the only reason I comment here. The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion. Waving aside the insults and attacks, I’ve realized that there is no single man here (save for one) who appears to be happily married, or is even the type of guy I would like to date.

    That’s not a dig, that’s just an assessment of the compatibility of men who are offering advice on dating men just like them. Perhaps it’s helpful for other women, but considering the incompatibility, the advice is moot for me.

    Just my two cents.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      I am in the process of exorcising these one-way relationships from my life, and I am starting to think that my participation at HUS is another negative experience. The women here freely offer advice and empathy, and I’ve come to realize that is the only reason I comment here.

      I’m so sorry. I feel that this is my fault. I never seem to find the right balance between free speech and hate speech.

      I’m envisioning an eventual experience where it’s me against solely male commenters, defending women against charges of low, base, feral impulses, which is even worse than the walking vagina claim.

      That’s when I’ll hang up my spurs.

  • Escoffier

    Quite happily married in my case.

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    Your comment is amazing that, in its brevity, it:
    1) misses the entire point of SW’s comment
    2) makes it all about YOU
    3) reinforces her reasoning

  • Escoffier

    Really, well, she said that one downside of the HUS men is that “only one” is happily married, when I can count several off the top of my head, me included, so it’s rather obviously wrong.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Jackie,

    Remember Iggles, Ion, Courtley, Charm for starters? Have you noticed that they all left? And there seems to be a steady influx of men with grievances here, and a continual decrease in female commenters?

    It will swing the other way sooner or later. Already the power of the men’s commentary is declining. The most effective weapon which the women will use against a Red Pill Man will be these words :

    You have no *Game*.

    He’ll either try and weasel themselves out of this, and be called a weasel, or he’ll start qualifying himself, only to discover just how powerful these solipsistic words can be :

    You haven’t gamed me.

    He’ll try and dismiss her, not seeing the herd standing behind her … waiting to stampede him.

    This tactic will be used repeatedly on the fractious dissenters, until they’re all gone.

    And then the women will rule the threads of HUS, until the mother of all cat fights erupts, giving an inroad for a new set of powerful male commenters.

    It’s a cycle Jackie.

  • Esau

    JP at 415: “I can translate Lokland.”

    Ah, but can you do Loglan?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loglan

    Money quote: “…a language so different from natural languages that people learning it would think in a different way…”

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @Marellus,

    Maybe the women should rule a blog that is targeting young women. Just saying, no need for old deluded misogynistic nostradamuses to push them out.

    I appreciate the insight of some guys around here, but I’m not going to lie, a lot of the guys that use to bring drama to this place have gone (no regrets), unfortunately not before many female commenters left though.

    I also think advice is different from insight, and shouldn’t be mistaken to be the same.

  • Ion

    “Remember Iggles, Ion, Courtley, Charm for starters? Have you noticed that they all left? And there seems to be a steady influx of men with grievances here, and a continual decrease in female commenters?”

    I occasionally lurk (check HUS sometimes 1x week, think it was good timing I checked today). I can’t speak for everyone else who left, I just know I left for two honest reasons.

    1.The amount of male whining about the following subjects:

    -derailing debates on pseudo-scientific theories.
    - feminizm, feminazizms, cock carouzing, peniz envies, and all other words incorrectly spelled with a z.
    - There are no petite white girls left, black girls are ugly, all the asian girls are taken.
    - Girls won’t wear heals, while I do nothing to improve my SMV or appearance. Shallow, short-haired bitches!
    - You’re over 25…give up now, you valueless cow (from middle-aged, more than likely beer-gutted men at that).
    - My pinkie toe hurts.

    Second reason, is that I’ve started dating, and hearing “most guys feel like this about these subjects”, was making me paranoid and needy.

    HUS was supposed to be my downtime, so it was just getting tiring. Susan’s posts are still good so I’ve been reading the posts and skipping comments for the most part.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ion

      Thanks for your feedback – that really was fortuitous timing. This is all giving me a lot to think about.

  • JhaneSez

    I say stay in your lane or get another vehicle.

    Men who will not do what is necessary to become better providers are no different than women who will not improve their appearance to attract a mate… they both seem to end up exactly where their efforts lead them. Alone.

    A woman who is overweight or obese is no different than a man who will not go to college, in that they are putting themselves at a distinct disadvantage and doing great harm to their SMV/MMV… and both of these groups seem to include some of the most vocal, entitled individuals who won’t get out of their own way and face reality, choosing instead to blame the other for their lack of social success.

    I’m offering this since we’re all just being honest here.

    I a huge fan of love and long term relationships, of monogamy and matrimony… I want everyone to get a churro. So when I read through the forums sometimes I get the sense that solutions aren’t being sought as much as people feel a need for their pain to be heard. As a result I think that discussion of issues get derailed in such a way more harm is done than good.

    So I will offer this observation… it seems that both sides of the equation have equally yolked complaints, meaning that in order to commit women want more masculine better providers and the men want more feminine attractive sexual partners.

    So the question seems to be how do we get these two groups together and reinstate a standard of assortative mating, or am I being presumptuous.

    The truth is that we are a society of average people looking for the extraordinary in others instead of wanting to be our absolute best selves and share that with another person who will truly appreciate us for who we are.

    We are impatient and lack discipline, we don’t want to invest in ourselves but instead look outward to others to validate us and that isn’t a love, that is sustaining or satisfying. Which is why everyone is angry and confused, because the focus is external instead of internal.

    One of the reasons I am fond of Athol Kay’s blog, is the basis of his MAP for both men and women is working on yourself first, which improves your SMV/MMV regardless of where you start… and when you improve yourself attract higher ranking mates.

    One of the saddest, most pathetic things I have heard put forward on this blog is this idea of not just in lacking desire of an assortative mate, but the total disdain expressed that borders on repulsion.

    And I don’t know why those people don’t understand is that is nothing more than self loathing reflected onto another person.

    Can we stop this sh*t and help each other in some productive way…

    I wonder. ~JS

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Mireille #431

    Noted.

  • BuenaVista

    The posts here that accumulate the most comments (sometimes by two orders of magnitude) are the ones that attract male comments. Women seem to “rule the threads” in the ‘spring game’ category, which today has zero (0) comments.

    As a man I enjoy the commentaries by men who are informing the male-female dating dialectic. And Susan makes more money (page-views) off the posts that interest men. I can’t tell if these posts interest the women very much, as too many of their comments are of the “stop confusing me with how the world works” variety before descending into personal insult. As a newbie, I resisted that (which I regret) and then I realized it was an automatic response. While I hoped to learn something of what my daughter is up against, the insights are rare.

    I must say that I am amused, apparently, to be an “old deluded misogynistic nostradamus” (Mireille). I might note that I strongly suspect, however, that I’m getting a whole lot more than the person who wrote that; but to do so would imply magical internet mind-reading skills, which I lack.

  • Escoffier

    BV, I’ve actually learned a great deal here about what my daughter is up against, so I would recommend the blog on that basis alone.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Jackie

    Are you saying the 1-10 scale does not exist then? That is what he was talking about: The dehumanization of another human by reducing their worth to a numerical value.

    How do you feel about your beloved Mom being evaluated and reduced in such a way?

    The issue at hand isn’t whether I feel good about it or not, but whether such a thing exists, and how other people make that determination.

    Like, I could stop judging people forever tomorrow. That doesn’t mean everyone else will, and that will have a significant impact on both my life and the life of my mother.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    I must say that I am amused, apparently, to be an “old deluded misogynistic nostradamus” (Mireille). I might note that I strongly suspect, however, that I’m getting a whole lot more than the person who wrote that; but to do so would imply magical internet mind-reading skills, which I lack.

    Hey, I wasn’t thinking of you in particular but it seems you recognized yourself in this description. Self-awareness is key. Also, you should quit suspecting, you’re obviously bad at it.

  • BuenaVista

    Escoffier, I don’t know. I know a lot of her friends, who tend to be too educated to indulge in political cant. And she likes men and knows what she wants in them. TheRulesRevisited.com has been useful for understanding how many women think about a search for a viable LTR, and rendered me more optimistic as that many of the women there seem to still like men and value their better, traditional qualities.

    I *have* learned a lot about what son#1 is up against, though, if only in a negative sense. I understand a lot better why he’s chosen to step outside a matriarchal mainstream society, and spend his days with men doing manly things, and his nights doing his art, presumably interacting with a few women who value those qualities in him. He’s a gentleman but not a patsy. I will be doing the same as soon as I sell my company.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Andrew at RR has a great blog, but it’s changing, unfortunately, as more men discover it and participate. I fear that may be my fault, in part. He has no connection to the manosphere, no interest in larger SMP issues, legal issues or feminism, AFAIK, and I assume he wants to keep it that way. He’s a hot guy in his late 20s teaching Girl Game, that’s it.

      He hasn’t been writing much lately, but going over there briefly I could find men with attitude preaching at the female commenters. It looks very much like HUS in earlier days.

  • BuenaVista

    @Mireille:

    QED.

  • Iggles

    Jackie, SayWhaat, Ion – :wave: and a big +1

    Like Ion, I do lurk from time to time but these days when I check out HUS it’s to read Susan’s posts.

    @ SayWhaat:

    I am in the process of exorcising these one-way relationships from my life, and I am starting to think that my participation at HUS is another negative experience. The women here freely offer advice and empathy, and I’ve come to realize that is the only reason I comment here. The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion. Waving aside the insults and attacks, I’ve realized that there is no single man here (save for one) who appears to be happily married, or is even the type of guy I would like to date.

    Good for you, SayWhaat on reevaluating the relationships in your life.

    It’s not my intent to add fuel to fire, but I agree with everything you wrote here.

    My main reason for leaving/lurking is that it just didn’t feel good posting in the comments as time went on. I guess I got burn out at the negativity towards women and there were times when I just didn’t feel heard in the conversation. I’d push back on things I disagreed with but alas, the same cycle of “rage against women” followed by “reacting to comments raging against women” continued.. (Note: when someone says something I fundamentally disagree with, I find it hard NOT to react — which why most of us ended up writing rebuttals, etc)

    I LOVE talking about relationships. It’s one of my favorite topics so that’s what drew me to HUS. Analyzing relationships and seeing what works vs what doesn’t. As the conversation got derailed by PUAs and MWGTOW who by definition are cynical about love/marriage/committment, participating got less fun for me. I sought out other places on the net to contribute which has been refreshing. However, I still hold a special place in my heart for HUS so it’s sad to see a recent exodus of commenters. That said, losing some bad apples is a GOOD thing IMO. Whether familiar faces return or not, I am hopeful that the community here is moving in a positive direction. This very discussion is a sign of that.

  • Ion

    fyi all, Iggles and I are friends irl so she knows we were mentioned. We don’t have same IP address, and live in different cities now, and don’t always agree. Just in case someone was wondering if we were same person since we both commented today.

    Saywhaat

    “I have to say that I don’t believe it is a coincidence that the women who remain are all tough cookies.”

    Is that a good thing though? That the only women who can stick around are the ones accustomed to hostility that occurs on a regular basis?

    Girls are more than willing to hear advice on how they can get and keep guys of decent value, even if it’s harsh truth. What they don’t want to hear is men of questionable value constantly stating that they’re wall-hit, ugly and worthless.

    I value comments from some male commenters like MM, Esco, Hans, etc., but a blog devoted to good advice on relationships should be attracting and keeping more female commenters than male commenters. I can’t think of one relationship blog where that isn’t true. Just like we’d expect that a sports car blog would attract mostly male commenters. Women LOVE discussing relationships, they just don’t wanna discuss thugs and alphas for 200+ comments, and have only female input be PJ.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ion/Iggles/SayWhatt

    How would you prefer to discuss relationships? Do you have a model conversation to follow?

  • Escoffier

    “95% of all divorces are uncontested and resolved quietly via mediation or with respective attorneys”

    That doesn’t speak to fairness, though. The fact is, the legal system highly incentivizes all parties to avoid trial in a variety of ways. The fact that 95% of cases get settled (a number incidently I’ve not seen before) says nothing about the fairness of those settlements.

  • Man

    I also think that there are too many guys bringing “sphere’s” debate into HUS, which to my mind is unfair because most of the women and girls here seem to have more sympathy for men’s issues as well.

    With regard to divorce risk for men, I also don’t see the usefulness of bringing the debate here. As far as men are concerned, great part of the risk is the perception that women nowadays are actually independent from them. Women have a lot of protections and resources in a way that they do not depend so much on a man, other than to have a partner and a father for the children.

    So to my mind, men are on a defensive position: they naturally have little sexual value for women and to make things worse, women do not even need them for protection, providing, etc. and, depending on the case, they can even make some money by leaving him.

    So great part of the risk is really subjective, because women have also a lot of resources to ruin a man’s life, through passive aggressive psychological and emotional violence, which cannot be proved on courts. If she is really manipulative, she can even reverse the case and make the man look like the aggressor, instead of the victim. So the risk is in great part subjective, even though real. Minor changes in the law are probably necessary (perhaps favoring more women who stay at home with children?). But the real risk for men is still subjective and his lack of value in a world where women are a lot independent, with access to good jobs, childcare, pill, high technological comfort and reasonable safety in urban areas.

    Susan addressed this issue in The Care and Keeping of Potential Husbands.

    The solution, indeed, for men who might be too afraid, is to resort to some Cyberskin doll and porn to relieve sexual tension, until he thinks is more prepared emotionally and psychologically for a marriage. Or perhaps a HUSsie might grab him off the single status and make him feel comfortable enough to marry her.

  • Jackie

    @Susan, SW

    Susan, it’s not your fault– you are a generous person who wants to keep the door open to the party. You are not the one breaking the social contract here.

    My sister and I had an interesting conversation in which she pointed out that I have been conditioned to retain diplomacy in the face of narcissists and extremely difficult people. (FAR moreso than HUS.)

    She asked if by continuing to replicate this pattern have moved forward or backward? Or exhibited true growth of my own vs repeating a pattern? Just because you *can* do something doesn’t mean that you should.

    I used to LOVE commenting here. But so many times I have taken a self-imposed break because the fear, self-loathing and self-hatred that so many posters carry with them is contagious.

    It makes me think that the men I meet IRL are going to be like they are here. And I can’t say that it helps in a quest that requires positivity and confidence.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It makes me think that the men I meet IRL are going to be like they are here. And I can’t say that it helps in a quest that requires positivity and confidence.

      The idea that HUS has actually interfered with healthy and productive dating, which several women have expressed, is devastating to me. I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.

  • Man

    The idea that HUS has actually interfered with healthy and productive dating, which several women have expressed, is devastating to me. I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.

    Please, Susan, don’t take the blame. Perhaps you’re bringing some “red pill” for women at HUS too. But I have read a lot of your articles and I think that there is a lot of practical information for women and men alike. What readers will do with this information is their responsibility, not yours.

  • Bells

    Just to pipe in a helpful suggestion for the older men, if most of the girls go MIA for a lengthy time-span and you guys end up talking to each other about war, divorce risks, or random etc that means something has gone wrong somewhere.

    Personally, I know that I tend to step back from a conversation because I can contribute absolutely nothing on the subjects of divorce and the degeneration of western women– plus those topics bore me after a while.

    Another suggestion that would be beneficial… contributions from younger men because those are our target demographics! If anyone is lurking, please contribute your input

  • Gin Martini

    FWIW, the anti-woman talk is annoying to me too. I just don’t like being lumped in with them, merely because I’m XY. Then again, the “all men are useless here” idea is… pretty much the same thing.

    I mean, us cavemen got Cooper off the ground, didn’t we? There’s zero men here with net-positive contribution? And *none* in a happy marriage? That’s a stretch, I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I mean, us cavemen got Cooper off the ground, didn’t we? There’s zero men here with net-positive contribution? And *none* in a happy marriage? That’s a stretch, I think.

      There are actually many male commenters who are positive, helpful, and empathic. I’m fond of quite a few. I also feel that some of the worst have departed. Unfortunately, for every extremist we lose, others show up. It’s like a never-ending supply of emotional terrorists that keeps replenishing itself.

  • Jackie

    No,no no! PLEASE don’t feel bad! It’s not like HUS is some Frankensteinian creation. There are LOTS of good men– some of the guy commenters here are GREAT!

    It’s the attitudes of negativity and entitlement that are hurting the mission. This is a very crass analogy, but even one little bit of crap in a glass of water means you can’t drink it.

    I’m not saying there has to be purity of commentariat, but if women feel welcome they will come. We (the understood “we”) are talking about a VERY loaded subject: Relationships carry immense psychological heft.

    That can be a really good thing: It can bring about deep, deep understanding.
    Or it can turn into a bunch of deflection tactics. What we have here is deflection via negativity. Once that changes, so will the commenteriat.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @ BV,

    The only think you demonstrated is that you know you’re creepy and your tendencies play a role in creeping out young ladies from this blog as evidence by this delurking. Get a grip!

    What they don’t want to hear is men of questionable value constantly stating that they’re wall-hit, ugly and worthless.

    I’ll share that before joining this blog I had never heard such things. It actually shocked and hurt me a bit; I had spent my own life making careful choices, not giving it up to whoever wants it and trying to be a decent human being to be told in the end, well, it didn’t matter anymore because I was crossing over 30. If it wasn’t by seeing men opening doors for me, inviting me for drinks or going on dates, I would have believed they were right. I guess their negativity made me push back and assess my own strengths. I definitely gained in self-awareness in spite of all this.

    OTOH, I can see how that negativity affected me as I started to criticize more harshly my own friends or peers for their choices, to the point of becoming judgmental sometimes, when they were genuinely trying to figure out things themselves. No one can remain immune to negative speech.

    In the end, I do enjoy on the whole this blog, reason why I keep reading and commenting, even taking bait when some “old deluded misogynistic nostradamuses” drop by to spread their “wisdom”. I think I have managed to get some insightful ideas from some men that actually echoed and informed my inner dialogue. Even then, you have to filter through the noise and disturbances to get to that core.

    I think because Susan decided to advise women in general, it was understood for some as “who needs advice if not idiots or misguided people?”. In a society where everyone “minds his own business”, seeking or receiving advice is de facto seen as having a weakness or something must be wrong with you. So took it as a confession that women are the root of evil if they are being advised on the relationship topic, hence it is justified to vilify them. Pretty unfortunate intellectual short cut.

  • Man

    @Jackie:

    I used to LOVE commenting here. But so many times I have taken a self-imposed break because the fear, self-loathing and self-hatred that so many posters carry with them is contagious.

    Hello, Jackie. I am asking for a review of my comment #448. Do you think it’s loaded with “fear”, “self-loathing” and “self-hatred” or do you think it adds/contributes to the discussion?

  • Jackie

    I mentioned this a long, long time ago, but advice my mother once gave me:

    “People will not remember what you did; they will remember the way you made them feel.”

    (Interestingly, Ted D went on to take a tangent that this was “female solipsism” — completely missing the point and demonstrating what we all have been saying. BTW, the quote has been attributed to only to men, from what I’ve found.)

    When people write from a place of one-upsmanship, misogyny or provocation, that stuff is *FELT*. That is what people remember. Demeaning and cheap rhetorical tactics are meant to hurt. And so people stay away.

    The sad irony is, those inflicting a kind of cruelty online almost always have suffered the same bullying behavior but haven’t moved past it.

    This is the XKCD I would govern by, if possible:
    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png

  • Escoffier

    Mirelly, FWIW, “the wall” is easily one of the mansphere’s dumbest memes. I have no doubt that some sphere-ite could chastise me at length for getting it all wrong, but if so, they need to explain it better.

    If the point is that, biologically and on average (in the perception of most men most of the time) women’s SMV (as distinct from MMV) peaks at an age which is not, relatively speaking, young, then fine. No doubt that’s true in the way that many obvious things are true.

    But they draw a lot of silly conclusions from that, the dumbest being the idea of a “wall” in the sense of “Splat!”, some discreet, sudden event. SMV declines, surely, but slowly. And as it declines, quite a great many women remain very attractive for many years.

    This is to say nothing of individual taste (which is so far from incidental here that it’s really integral) nor to the fact that a lot of men really do want a women more or less close in age to themselves, for a variety of reasons.

    You can call that my white knight post for the day, though I really do believe it.

  • Escoffier

    sorry for typo-ing your name

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.”

    You shouldn’t. Any human creation can, and probably will, be misused by someone or other.

    It’s very difficult to ensure a civil tone on a blog with thousands of comments, and you do it very well.

  • Man

    The sad irony is, those inflicting a kind of cruelty online almost always have suffered the same bullying behavior but haven’t moved past it.

    Men are being bullied, especially in the so called “sphere”, often for what they perceive to be the right things to do. And unfortunately, a lot of times they are bullied in real life too. It’s a sad state of affairs for many. I’ve been there too. I think that being aware/conscious of the process or underlying feelings might help them to overcome it (in the absence of female support/love/nurturing which would be the best, desirable option).

  • Jackie

    @Man

    Thanks for asking my opinion, Man. :)

    My litmus test is: Does this help the girl towards meeting good men? Finding a good marriage?

    Your comment #448 appears to me to focus on divorce/alimony/child custody. Also how women can wound men.

    To me it looks like your comment is for a different audience than this blog’s intended one.

  • Lokland

    @Liz

    “Then he tried to kill me, and wrote his own ticket to jail. I hear you saying “well you SHOULD have left” but he had never been violent so I didn’t feel threatened, and to this day I think he was possessed by a demon. ”

    No that sounds entirely reasonable.
    Both of my grandfathers were alcoholics, one was just mellow and funny but the other was a screamer.

    This is one issue where I clearly come down on the side of the victim pretty much without exception.

    Also, ‘your house’ makes complete sense. I would never leave a house that was mine prior to marriage either.

  • Hope

    I stopped commenting on blogs altogether for a long while before my husband and I got married, because they were definitely very negative and made me self conscious. I’m not specifically talking about this blog, but I do understand what the other women are saying.

    These days I don’t comment much because I’m rather busy, and I’ve seen these same arguments hashed out over and over again. It gets tedious, and I feel like I have really nothing new to contribute. I also don’t want to be in the mud pit slinging mud, which several times I’ve felt the temptation…

    But I had to walk away. Life is too short to argue with somebody online every day. :p

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    More personal stories in the comments would be nice. I love reading those.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Why do you not find it misogynist that a man has come here describing vaginas as a commodity, the only part of a woman with any worth? Portraying this maladjusted individual as a victim is preposterous.”

    Don’t be silly.
    I love my wife, my mom, my grandmothers, my nieces, my sister(in law) and a dozen and a half other women.

    My world would be a bleak and horrid place without even one of them.
    Valuing them as just vaginas is preposterous.

    You assume my not arguing against the man is supporting misogyny but I think it was well covered.

    So, in case that was unclear, it was extremely misogynistic and entirely inappropriate.

    I do not think insulting the group of men (whom that individual is apart of) (ie. misandry) is acceptable however.

    (Something from my child hood about two wrongs and a left or something light that. :P)

    No one bothered to mention that.

    Seriously, do you actually think I would ever endorse such a statement?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seriously, do you actually think I would ever endorse such a statement?

      It seemed to me that silence on his statement was tacit endorsement given your criticism of women for calling him a loser.

  • Man

    @Jackie:

    To me it looks like your comment is for a different audience than this blog’s intended one.

    Exactly. That was the intent. Actually I look around here mostly to see what women are talking/thinking about and instead I often see Susan in a tug of war with the “sphere”. I think they are targeting the wrong women/site. So I try to help. :)

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “Not sure if sarc? It certainly does cut a shade different than the traditional man-o-sphere meme of “girls are hypergamous, they go after the hottest guy, ride the carousel, and then marry a provider beta. There are no good ones yet.”

    Sarcasm directed at an not present party.
    I agree with you.

    It spears both the ‘all wimminz are hypergamous bitch3s’ argument as well as the ‘no men are ready for marriage before age 30′ meme.

    I’m attending a wedding next weekend for the guy I lined up next to in football back in high school. Same woman.

  • Hope

    Alright, let’s get on a nicer topic! Check this thread out:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/1ep25c/ladies_what_was_the_moment_when_you_realized_that/

    I’ve not posted in it if you’re wondering. :p

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Bless your heart for introducing a positive female centric topic!

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Why am I thinking of Kahlil Gibran’s Broken Wings

  • Lokland

    @J

    “You often sound angry and also a bit obscure to me. Something is getting lost on translation. It’s hard to know what you mean sometimes. No snark, just feedback on your writing style.”

    Thank you. I’ll consider this when writing out my replies.
    I’m surprised I come off as angry (unless women view disagreement as anger?)

  • BuenaVista

    @SW:

    “95% of all divorces are uncontested and resolved quietly via mediation or with respective attorneys.”

    You may be misleading yourself here. “Resolving quietly” means “settled.” Most litigation is settled. That does not make it friendly, inexpensive, or pleasant. Both sides in a divorce are pressured or encouraged to settle, heavily, by their attorneys because attorneys hate trial and the risk of losing that trial presents. This is rational, because trial outcomes are not predictable or rational, even. So trial is the outlier that is the forcing event generating settlements.

    The #1 divorce lawyer for high-profile divorces in DC is Sandy Ain. He’s a gentleman, courtly, smart — and he wins through settlement, not trial. The #1 divorce lawyer in Virginia is Jim Cottrell. He’s brilliant in open court, and he’s the go-to-guy if you are not going to compromise on certain things and thus may well go to trial. The great majority of his cases settle. That does not mean anyone wants to meet with either of them in a dark alley, metaphor-wise. Pupils dilate if those guys are your counsel.

    Settlement negotiations are rarely friendly in contentious divorces involving money and children. This is also true of litigation involving IP and the workplace, the other two litigation verticals I have managed. Settlement is “quiet”. It ain’t friendly.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Lokland

    Sarcasm directed at an not present party.
    I agree with you.

    It spears both the ‘all wimminz are hypergamous bitch3s’ argument as well as the ‘no men are ready for marriage before age 30′ meme.

    Ah, yes. That makes sense, then.
    I have never been high up on the “men aren’t ready for marriage” argument, and I am finding “wimminz are hypergamous bitchez” unconvincing.
    There are clearly some people are well adjusted enough for relationships and value them, but that does indeed raise some questions about the rest of the population.

  • BuenaVista

    Girl Game Spring Challenge 7 is up to … zero (0) comments. But isn’t that the category that only women choose to comment within, where they don’t have to deal with the tired dull rational old boys they are calling names all day long here? The safe place where they can congregate and share? For some reason, they’re here, calling people names. I have no idea what this means.

    You can’t make this up. It’s life in a teacup.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Girl Game Spring Challenge 7 is up to … zero (0) comments. But isn’t that the category that only women choose to comment within, where they don’t have to deal with the tired dull rational old boys they are calling names all day long here? The safe place where they can congregate and share? For some reason, they’re here, calling people names. I have no idea what this means

      No one said they don’t enjoy male commenters. Quite the opposite – HUS is a mix of great conversations between the sexes, but also some that make me want to bang my head against the wall.

      I think it was you who mentioned page views earlier. Please keep in mind that I get around 10,000 unique visitors a day – and at most there are a hundred commenters at any one time. That’s 1%, which is typical for blogs. We’re discussing the dynamic between the men and women in that 1%, but that has little effect on page views. In fact, I write all of my posts to women, and it doesn’t matter. I could write a post about feminine hygiene and in the first ten comments a man would complain about women. In this post, some guy showed up early to say it is bad advice for men, avoid, avoid! I didn’t write it for men! That is clear in my use of pronouns!

      The Girl Game Challenge is something a bit different – this is the 7th one, obvs. The first couple got some good comments, including several encouraging ones from men. Also, the nature of the challenge is that people read the post, do the exercise, then come back and give field reports. So that really isn’t a good comparison you made.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    @LokLand

    I’m surprised I come off as angry (unless women view disagreement as anger?)

    She’s right. With all due respect, I very often sense that anger, bitterness, resentment coming from some of your comments. To the point where I sometimes wonder if it isn’t depression or some other things that need to be addressed. It is worrying, no snark intended.

    I’d also say that nothing can be considered “obvious” with you since you’ve taken some pretty extreme personal positions before or felt targeted when it clearly was not the case. People have to walk on eggs around you.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “There are clearly some people are well adjusted enough for relationships and value them, but that does indeed raise some questions about the rest of the population.”

    Yes. I agree with all of this.

    The reason a 25 year old woman is not in a relationship is not because there are no men ready for relationships. She isn’t either because of her own choices in men or the circles she chooses to run in.

    Similarly, a man who complains that all the woman don’t like me (me at 16-17) is not ready for a woman. Similar reasoning.

  • Anacaona

    Girl Game Spring Challenge 7 is up to … zero (0) comments. But isn’t that the category that only women choose to comment within, where they don’t have to deal with the tired dull rational old boys they are calling names all day long here? The safe place where they can congregate and share? For some reason, they’re here, calling people names. I have no idea what this means.
    Women comment when there is a field report to share.What do you expect? Baking takes time.

  • Lokland

    @Mir

    “To the point where I sometimes wonder if it isn’t depression or some other things that need to be addressed.”

    I do have (seasonal) depression. Runs in the family.
    Mostly it manifests as tiredness and occasionally sadness.
    I mostly just ignore it.

    Or, if you remember my last freak out about being short.
    It was blizzarding (this should be a word) when I woke up.

    I’m not often angry.

  • Anacaona

    I do have (seasonal) depression. Runs in the family.
    Mostly it manifests as tiredness and occasionally sadness.
    I mostly just ignore it.

    Shouldn’t you take seasonal medication instead. Or at least some sunlight treatment?

  • J

    @Liz

    Glad you got out from under all theat mess. Good for you.

    @Jackie

    I used to LOVE commenting here. But so many times I have taken a self-imposed break because the fear, self-loathing and self-hatred that so many posters carry with them is contagious.

    Don’t let it get you down. HUS, the sphere and its environs tend to aggregate people who have relationship issues. The female question “How can I find a boyfriend?” tends to attract men who for whatever reason have had trouble on the opposite side of that equation. Those who eventually figure out their end move on. Others can’t resolve it, so they stick around getting more and more bitter. There are some guys who have been around 3-4 years, making no changes and becoming more and more frustrated. It has little to do with the men you meet in real life; they are a more representative sample of men as opposed to guys who are attracted to HUS for a specific reason.

  • J

    I don’t know if it’s botched plastic surgery or what, but she was nearly unrecognizable.

    Maybe just advanced Britishness. Something happens in England that is just hell on skin.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “Shouldn’t you take seasonal medication instead. Or at least some sunlight treatment?”

    All the lights in both my home and work place offices have them installed.
    I don’t take any medication (my grandfather was a husk for a long time).

    As for now, ahh sun, happy Lokland.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Well, these posts by negatively-effected women have been troubling. For my small part, I would like to be more user-friendly and to contribute to a more congenial discussion environment here at HUS. My particular niche is probably to serve as a cautionary tale re: someone that women who are actively in the husband market might do well to avoid, so I am unavoidably going to be filling a certain stock villain character role sometimes.

    Overall, I feel like thoughtful men can aid in the quest to equip young women with better SMP management strategies, but perhaps there is a more effective and polite way to go about doing it…?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Case in point, he managed to make that American men looking for foreign brides about him when this isn’t even his life story or experience, and acted insulted in the process. Please…”

    This is what I mean Susan.
    Allow me to deconstruct this and say what I see it meaning.

    Allegation of being personally involved (despite protesting the claim twice now). That I am personally insulted (also not true, protested twice).

    I am of course not involved and personal involvement does not actually invalidate an argument.

    This as a means to avoid actually dealing with the argument that misandry is wrong.

    ——–

    The purpose;

    To allow misandry (all men who go overseas to find a wife are losers) by discrediting the person arguing the point by saying they are personally involved (bias) and therefore incapable of a rationale argument.

    Keep in mind that all I did was;

    a) not disagree with the original dip shit (though I never said I disagreed with him which at least by me is not the same as agreement)
    b) pointed out that it was misandry to insult a group of men who were not present to defend themselves
    c) that in attacking the group of men a lot of men not involved in any form of misogyny are being targeted along with one online troll

    ——

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @BV

    Now you’re just trolling.

    Yeah, you’re right. Hijacking a discussion thread and going OT, that definitely describes my behavior. That wouldn’t describe anybody else, right? Well, at least I don’t act like a termite, chewing on HUS for lunch.

    And I’ll take that as a NO to my original question.

    Back to your original hypothetical situation:
    If a wife wishes to divorce a man who does not wish to divorce, and he refuses to abandon his home and children, a wife can just call the sheriff and have him arrested for actions no one saw and for which there is no evidence.

    Blame it on the detective in me, but don’t children often witness incidents of domestic violence? Aren’t witness statements evidence, too? It seems you didn’t even bother to consider that possibility.

    Not that it’s remotely relevant to THIS blog, but it does beg the question: How many husbands have been falsely accused of abuse by a single witness, with no corroborating evidence, with no gun in the home, and no prior complaints, and was subsequently arrested and evicted?

    Since we’re dealing in hypothetical speculation, that’s an excellent question to ask.

  • J

    @Say Whaat

    The women here freely offer advice and empathy, and I’ve come to realize that is the only reason I comment here. The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion. Waving aside the insults and attacks, I’ve realized that there is no single man here (save for one) who appears to be happily married, or is even the type of guy I would like to date.

    There are several people whose posts I just skim and I few people I simply completely ignore. It’s easier on the stres level.

    @Ion

    Second reason, is that I’ve started dating, and hearing “most guys feel like this about these subjects”, was making me paranoid and needy.

    You know, there was a period of month or so there I worried (me!!!!) that my husband wanted me to be more submissive and that my marriage might break up because I’m really capable of that. After sitting on that feeling for a while, I finally broke down and asked my husband. Hilarity ensued.

    The man you’re with is the man you’re with. The perceptions and preferences of these guys aren’t necessarily shared by the men you know IRL.

    @BV

    Megaman is a longtime respected commenter here. Please do not call him a troll or characterize his posts as trolling.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Megaman is a longtime respected commenter here.

      FWIW, I’ve gotten emails from girls hoping to find a husband like Megaman. :) Female lurkers like him a lot.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    I do have (seasonal) depression. Runs in the family.
    Mostly it manifests as tiredness and occasionally sadness.

    Well, that explains a lot. Still, it can be difficult for those who don’t know this.

    I think what I strongly objected to was your qualification of “losers who can’t get laid”. You were the only one to call them losers. Not one woman did. That was troubling, because most women, me included said they didn’t really care what those guys were doing, dating abroad or not.

    You’ll admit that the fact that you’re married to a foreign woman and “felt” it was your duty to defend this specific group of men, was telling. Even if you were doing it on the basis of pure justice, it wasn’t hard to read other motives into it. Do you see what I mean?

    Lastly, it could have been useful to make it known that you rejected the position of that declared misogynist from the begining, and then clarify your position. The silence when he was calling women “vaginas” felt like acquiescence and then the defense felt like endorsement. It is all about perception.

    To sum it up, like J, I sometimes feel we’re missing some steps in your reasoning, which makes it unclear how you ended up to a conclusion. But I guess this is why we keep commenting and learning.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    J,

    It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of us here were kinder and more compassionate towards our SOs than to the other commenters here, though. You might be more “submissive” with your husband than you might be here. In my experience, men use the term “submissive” or “agreeable” because many of the women we deal with on a daily basis are “raging bitches.”

    This makes them very unpleasant to deal with…

    One scenario that strikes me is a time in college, when I had to discuss an issue with one the female members of my business organization. I was the master of the Pledge Program, she was…I forget what. Anyways, we were at an event for Pledges and Brothers, and I wanted to discuss something with her outside, away from the Pledges.

    She acted as if it was a very affront to her honor, to make such a request.

    Very unpleasant girl to be around if she wasn’t interested in you. Ver manipulative girl. Broadcasted good images while doing very little work. Was the unrestricted girl in college, dated lots of Alpha Guys including a Firefighter who was hitting on a rock-climbing instructor right in front of us. She is now playing perfect housemother to a good Muslim guy, I guess.

    Would not bet anything on that marriage lasting forever.

    anyways, I would say that the guys here behave quite differently in their real lives as well, particularly when contentious issues are not at stake.

  • J

    Thank you. I’ll consider this when writing out my replies.
    I’m surprised I come off as angry (unless women view disagreement as anger?)

    Thanks for taking my feedback in that spirit. I wish I could be more specific about what’s hard to understand, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. Suffice it to say that about 25% of your posts leave asking myself “Huh? What did he mean by that?” or “What’s he so mad about?”

    I also think you take things that are meant lightheartedly in a more serious vein than intended. That may be my fault as I can be very deadpan, but I recall one incident when I joking said I’d run off with either DeNiro, Pacino or Sacha Baron Cohen if I met one (or all for that matter)them on a plane. There was a little hyperbole involved, but IIRC you seemed to think I was planning some actual infidelity. I found that disconcerting.

  • Emily

    >> “Women LOVE discussing relationships, they just don’t wanna discuss thugs and alphas for 200+ comments, and have only female input be PJ.”

    LOL! +1.

    Divorce is another topic that I get really sick of. Whenever it comes up, I immediately switch into tl;dr mode.

  • J

    You might be more “submissive” with your husband than you might be here. In my experience, men use the term “submissive” or “agreeable” because many of the women we deal with on a daily basis are “raging bitches.”</i.

    Nah, some guys just love a bitch. ;-)

    Actually, the model for our marriage is more like two horses pulling the same wagon in the same yoke than Captain/First Officer, but that's still a cooperative model. I am also fairly demonstrative and affectionate to those I love. (You can imagine how much my sons love this. :-( )

  • Emily

    Lokland,

    Didn’t you meet your wife in university? Yes she’s from a foreign country, but you most certainly are NOT in the same category as the dudes who are getting mail-order brides. FWIW.

  • J

    She acted as if it was a very affront to her honor, to make such a request. Very unpleasant girl to be around if she wasn’t interested in you.

    Yeah, that’s pretty creepy.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    The idea that HUS has actually interfered with healthy and productive dating, which several women have expressed, is devastating to me. I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.

    I’ve just been skimming all the complaints from the women here. They have a point. But is that any surprise to you? For the longest time most of your blogroll links were to manosphere sites. Where do you think all us bad tempered old men came from?

    I don’t see the blogroll now. If you restore it, leave the manosphere sites off of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For the longest time most of your blogroll links were to manosphere sites. Where do you think all us bad tempered old men came from?

      I don’t see the blogroll now. If you restore it, leave the manosphere sites off of it.

      I did delete the blogroll. I recall Athol going through a similar exercise. I don’t know if and when I’ll restore it. I actually like MMSL and a couple of other blogs – if only the readership was not so hostile to women!

  • Jeremy

    Hi Megaman.

    “BTW, I just ran a quick 2-variable correlation between “ever divorced/separated” and “relative difference in spousal income” over at the GSS:
    http://www3.norc.org/GSS+Website/

    It’s free, and they have a ton of variables to choose from. You can even PDF the results and raw numbers, which I can email anybody who’s interested.”

    I’m curious about those stats. Could you e-mail them to me at jeremy2@mailinator.com? Thanks.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Susan

    FWIW, I’ve gotten emails from girls hoping to find a husband like Megaman. Female lurkers like him a lot.

    I thought we weren’t going to play favorites with the commenters ;)

    No, but I’m not surprised. Megaman is not a bad choice for a husband at all, as far as I can tell, and I can think of many RL examples that would be far worse. He does not bring baggage into here, which suggests to me that he is mostly comfortable and happy with his relationship/marriage/he could be gay for all I know.
    His prevailing personality attribute here, though, is impatience for debates that depart from reality and then intransigence when he calls people out on bad numbers/misplaced rhetoric. Nothing wrong with that. I understand the frustration he has, because I get it all the time when I am dealing with t3h commiez.
    On the other hand, while that may make him a very pleasant commenter (at least for women that like him) that doesn’t speak anything to his relationship skills…
    Not bashing Megaman. I like him just fine. And I am sure he is a swell partner, too. But him being a good internet commenter doesn’t mean he is a good husband :P

    Likewise, just because some men here get pissy and intransigent, does not make them BAD husbands.

    Over-extrapolation from limited data…something people are prone to do!

    FWIW, I think, out of all the male commenters we have had here, the best husband material is in Ted. Big ol’ Teddy Bear who just will not quit and loves his family very dearly. Also very respectful: if he doesn’t think he is helping the blog mission, he leaves.

    Also, if women would like to find a Megaman, or a Mr. Hus, or whatever they may like, they MIGHT be better served by looking into some “under-appreciated” markets. Forgive me, Mega, I haven’t been following ALL of your comments closely, but I do remember you referencing a period where you weren’t having the best of luck with ladies because of various circumstances.

    It appears that Mr. HUS went through a similar period, in STEM School…Susan referenced a scenario where one of his girlfriends went crazy and shaved her head? And that he was not super-high SMV while he was in college?

    And it seems to me that Mr. Ana and Mr. Hope definitely were not poon-slayers, though Mr. Hope apparently was not totally devoid of affection and had some attention…

    I would suggest that there is a pretty large potential arbitrage opportunity here…just saying it again… ;)

  • jlw

    I asked: “What should the “losers” do if they cannot raise their SMV to the level that will get them paired with women that they, in turn, find attractive?”

    Susan answered: “I gave that advice in the post – lower your standards. Or fly solo.”

    Thank you for being so clear. Few writers discussing the SMP seem to have the guts to say to low-SMV people who simply cannot be attracted to the people they can get that they will remain alone. This simple truth, while unpleasant, needs to be made known.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Few writers discussing the SMP seem to have the guts to say to low-SMV people who simply cannot be attracted to the people they can get that they will remain alone.

      I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1? My husband sings in a choir, and in the group are a married pair, both extremely physically unattractive. Once at Mass I leaned over to my daughter and told her they were married, and she said, “Mom! That’s so mean!” I said, “No, I’m serious!” Over the years, her husband, who I am friends with on Facebook, has posted many status updates expressing appreciation for his beautiful wife. They just celebrated their 25th anniversary, and are still deeply in love.

      There’s something wrong with not being able to be attracted to someone of your own SMV. It’s shallow.

  • JP

    “Yeah, you’re right. Hijacking a discussion thread and going OT, that definitely describes my behavior. That wouldn’t describe anybody else, right?”

    Sometimes I read the blog post before commenting.

    Granted, I’m only here because this blog is actually alive. As opposed to the other blogs that died. Alas, poor other blogs whose owners got tired of blogging.

    Although I did find that French woman commenter the other day. I’m not sure what impact bringing her here would have on the conversation. Maybe I’ll see if she’s entertained by this subject matter.

    Plus, Cooper needed advice.

    And Han Solo grew up Mormon.

  • Gin Martini

    JLW, that’s really the only choice. However, feel free to lower your commitment level along with your attraction standards. If you are truly at the point where you don’t feel like you’re surrounded by lots of attractive-enough women, and some sizeable fraction of them aren’t flirty or possibly interested, then something really is wrong. Level up or aim down.

  • JP

    @J:

    “Thank you. I’ll consider this when writing out my replies.
    I’m surprised I come off as angry (unless women view disagreement as anger?)

    Thanks for taking my feedback in that spirit. I wish I could be more specific about what’s hard to understand, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. Suffice it to say that about 25% of your posts leave asking myself “Huh? What did he mean by that?” or “What’s he so mad about?””

    He never strikes me as angry.

    A little grumpy and/or moody, perhaps, but not angry.

    But then, I can speak Lokland.

    It’s one of my many idiosyncratic non-marketable skills.

  • Gin Martini

    Shallow is considering physical factors, to the exclusion of all else. Being too picky, to your own detriment, is entirely different. It’s confused/naive at best, delusional at worst.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Shallow is considering physical factors, to the exclusion of all else. Being too picky, to your own detriment, is entirely different. It’s confused/naive at best, delusional at worst.

      But aren’t they rejecting on physical attributes alone?

  • Jonathan

    Susan:

    The idea that HUS has actually interfered with healthy and productive dating, which several women have expressed, is devastating to me. I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.

    Nah. You’re surfing a cultural wave, not creating one. The blog attracts a lot of interest from a diverse audience. That’s good. The discussions have value for many people. If some female readers have become jaded it’s likely that many others feel that they have gained valuable understanding. It’s difficult to get that kind of understanding without open discussion and a grounding in empirical reality, which is why your blog is better than most.

  • Gin Martini

    I don’t think rejecting a single person on physical attributes alone is shallow. By that definition, everyone would be shallow. I think everyone has a physical “no way” mode that can’t be overridden by any amount of other positives. Sorry.

    However, these in my experience, are not generalizable. I can’t even honestly say “over 200 lbs is dealbreaker” because, there are some who aren’t. Most perhaps, but not all.

  • Anacaona

    And it seems to me that Mr. Ana and Mr. Hope definitely were not poon-slayers, though Mr. Hope apparently was not totally devoid of affection and had some attention…
    I’m my husband’s lucky seventh relationship, although he dated only 5 other and he might have had sex with only 4 (I’m a bit confused about some details but I do know he dated a couple of virgins and I think one of them didn’t got all the way PinV), he tried twice with the same one. Although I’m the first black, once you black you never go back for sure ;). But he never had ONS, never pumped and dumped if he would have I would had not married him, I know I’m crazy but that is how I roll and so does he, YMMV.

  • Gin Martini

    Heh, before HUS, I would have consider 4 as “manwhore”. I thought nearly everyone had 1 or 2 at max, and everyone else was a rare minority, like 2%. Now I know better! Thanks, ladies!

  • J

    @JP
    He never strikes me as angry. A little grumpy and/or moody, perhaps, but not angry. But then, I can speak Lokland.

    OK. What am I missing?

    @Ana

    I’m my husband’s lucky seventh relationship, although he dated only 5 other and he might have had sex with only 4…

    DH went through one LTR every 4-5 years from junior year of high school until we met. (He was on the Helen Fischer plan). I’m sure there was an ONS or two between gfs.

    @SW

    There’s something wrong with not being able to be attracted to someone of your own SMV. It’s shallow.

    The happiest couple I know is a pair of perfect threes.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @ADBG

    But him being a good internet commenter doesn’t mean he is a good husband.

    I’ve got things to work on, room for improvement, just like everybody else IRL!

  • mr. wavevector

    The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion.

    Actually I often feel weird about posting on a blog for young women.

    The attraction of HUS is that it’s fairly unique: mixed gender, non-feminist, non-MRA, and guided by science rather than blank-slate ideology.

    Is there another site like that that isn’t for young women? I’d like to know about it if there is. I’m not dedicated enough to create one, that’s for sure.

  • Anacaona

    Heh, before HUS, I would have consider 4 as “manwhore”. I thought nearly everyone had 1 or 2 at max, and everyone else was a rare minority, like 2%. Now I know better! Thanks, ladies!

    All this were girlfriends and most of them broke up with him, One then was a Chinese American whose family didn’t approved of a white boy, another a very catholic Latina same issue with the family.What a manwhore indeed /sarcasm.

  • Gin Martini

    I said *before* HUS. Remember, I married girlfriend #1, yes?

    Obviously, I don’t think that now, just explaining my utter naïveté when it came to actual N for both men and women. That CDC paper definitely learned me!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “It seemed to me that silence on his statement was tacit endorsement given your criticism of women for calling him a loser.”

    You did not (nor did anyone else) call him a loser.
    I quoted you on it.

    You called all the people like him losers (which presumably included him.)

    @Emily

    “Divorce is another topic that I get really sick of. Whenever it comes up, I immediately switch into tl;dr mode.”

    I’ll admit this is getting really old now.

    “Didn’t you meet your wife in university? Yes she’s from a foreign country, but you most certainly are NOT in the same category as the dudes who are getting mail-order brides. FWIW.”

    Yes. Not the problem.
    It never had anything to do with me.

    I used myself as a separate point which was that women in college (this blogs audience) will be competing with foreign women (ranging from 2 to 27% depending on the American university they attend). My university actually had a higher percentage of foreign students.

    It may have been higher of odds of interacting with a foreigner than a fellow Canadian (or really close to even).

    That is separate from the misandry argument.

    @Susan

    “I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1? My husband sings in a choir, and in the group are a married pair, both extremely physically unattractive.”

    Because we are here to breed not fall in love.
    Question; does that couple have children? If they do, what are the odds those children will find a mate and have healthy children (guesstimate)?

    @JP

    “A little grumpy and/or moody, perhaps, but not angry.”

    We need more of you. This is pretty much it.

    @GM

    “Heh, before HUS, I would have consider 4 as “manwhore”. I thought nearly everyone had 1 or 2 at max, and everyone else was a rare minority, like 2%. Now I know better! Thanks, ladies!”

    I’m still wondering where the women who are married to guys with N=1 are. Supposedly its 1 in 5 yet none have ever copped up to it.

    @J

    “OK. What am I missing?”

    One of my former students says the most valuable skill he learned from me was mind reading :P

    I tend to be poorly descriptive and suffer from an utterly horrendous apex fallacy (original kind).

    You know what I mean right? :P

  • Anacaona

    I’m still wondering where the women who are married to guys with N=1 are. Supposedly its 1 in 5 yet none have ever copped up to it.
    Maybe the wives don’t know? Most women don’t really ask this sort of questions unless there are red flags.

  • jlw

    “I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1?”

    Well, because many 2s and 3s are smart enough to look around and see the 8s. People who are 2s and 3s want to date people who are 8 or above. Why wouldn’t they? Of course ‘wanting’ and ‘getting’ are two very different things.

    “There’s something wrong with not being able to be attracted to someone of your own SMV. It’s shallow.”

    That’s a sweet story you describe with the ugly couple, but for every one of those stories there’s some of these: there’s a 2 in my office. She frankly told me she could not get a man outside of total, total scumbags (cons, homeless guys) and that’s why she went the sperm bank route. Now she has a toddler. She’s sweet, she’s smart, she’s so ugly nobody she wanted wanted her physically. I know a guy in his 40s, a 2. Hard worker. Never been in relationship. So ugly a straight guy like me shakes his head. And short to boot. Same deal – rather be alone. Are these shallow, bad people? Should we scold them for not settling?

    Maybe it’s shallow or whatever label you choose to slap on it, but it’s the reality for a small group of people. If you dumpster dive deep enough into the abyss of low SMV, eventually you are going to pass an event horizon below which your junk just isn’t going to respond. And if you are in the small group whose SMV is also that low, how helpful is it to have an entire industry preying on you, saying that if you just do X, Y, or Z or buy product A, B, or C, you’ll get the hotties. How helpful is it to hear cliches like “everybody get’s somebody”?

    In other words, having any kind of standards is your *fault*? I tend to agree that managing standards is certainly one’s *responsibility*, and I’ll say that everybody gets somebody…if they’re willing to take anybody, but I
    wouldn’t be so quick to seemingly place blame on people and be dismissive toward them for having inherent, biological standards. There’s nothing a chronically low-SMV person can do about that past a certain point. Yes, such a person has the responsibility to own up to this reality, not whine, and make the best of it, but it’s not that’s person’s fault for being “shallow.”

    I commend you for not insulting these unfortunate people’s intelligence. At least you mention the giving up, flying solo, and -presumably- deriving pleasure in other areas of life.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Jackie

    Remember Iggles, Ion, Courtley, Charm for starters? Have you noticed that they all left? And there seems to be a steady influx of men with grievances here, and a continual decrease in female commenters?

    Don’t forget Ms. Babydoll. I doubt you’ll find any men who’ll take responsibility for directly or indirectly running them out of here.

    I’ll definitely fess up to helping exorcise certain demons from this place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve already blacklisted three IP addresses today and it’s only 8 a.m. I’m going to cut out every malignant commenter as soon as I detect them. Yesterday I was feeling really discouraged, but today I’m angry and determined. I’m not going to allow demented keyboard jockeys to highjack my blogchild.

  • Jonathan

    Bells 453:

    Just to pipe in a helpful suggestion for the older men, if most of the girls go MIA for a lengthy time-span and you guys end up talking to each other about war, divorce risks, or random etc that means something has gone wrong somewhere.

    Most of the conversations here wouldn’t be very interesting without the participation of the more active male commenters. Women tend to share experiences, which is great, but they also tend to personalize everything and useful criticism gets muted. The high traffic on this blog attracts interest from some insightful commenters, some female but mostly male. That’s the Internet. Any blog that discouraged participation by men would lower its own intellectual quality.

    Interesting that Megaman is popular with the female commenters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonathan

      I do appreciate the intellectual quality of the male commentary here – it’s outstanding. It raises the quality of the discussion in many ways.

      I’ve always let things go off-topic as people see fit – I personally have no problem with discourses on philosophy, military history, etc. People can tune out if the convo doesn’t appeal to them – we don’t need 100% participation on every thread.

      At the same time, I’m guilty of taking on challenges from some male commenters whose only goal is to introduce negativity to the whole HUS project. I confess I am often lured in because they appeal to my intellect rather than my emotions. But in engaging them, I’m contributing to creating a really hostile environment at times.

      The truth is, most of the male commenters are great. I once listed the regulars here, and there were about 50 guys whose commentary I value highly. Not all of them are here all the time, obviously, but it’s a good group. At any given time, there are generally only about 3-5 people trolling here, and they include women.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/6139615b1025fddd287fc36f95cdb4c5.png Mireille

    Male commenters are ok, the problem is when women come here to receive advice and share their experiences, and trip into angry male rants that reduce them to mere vaginas. This is what is unacceptable, not the so-called truth or wisdom you feel you’re spreading. Susan does a great job presenting certain issues in a way that is palatable and accessible for young women. And even when incomplete, there are some pretty good male commenters that point out what’s been overlooked. I believe many times, Susan has actually used comments from female and male commenters as inspiration for new posts.

    RealityBites, if you think women are idiots because they refuse your BS, you gotta get a grip. If you present your information like a brute, people will only remember how crass you were, not what you said or whether or not there was any ounce of truth to it. Think about that for a second.
    And as a reminder, Susan never said “losers who can’t get laid”, Lokland did, a male commenter. Get your facts straight.

    @Jon,

    From what I read, you associate prejudice and anecdata with being an intellectual, judging from your comments. Laughable! Another evidence that being an intellectual doesn’t mean being actually smart. Most male who know how to communicate their opinion in a constructive way and remain true to their male self generally have no problem staying around, so I have no doubt the “intellectual” quality of this blog will not drop when some “blog terrorists” leave.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Another suggestion that would be beneficial… contributions from younger men because those are our target demographics! If anyone is lurking, please contribute your input

    I have a mental list of commenters I skip… I highly suggest it

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    “Women LOVE discussing relationships, they just don’t wanna discuss thugs and alphas for 200+ comments, and have only female input be PJ.”

    She’s an institution at HUS. I love it when she reads me The Riot Act … because then I can be the joker I really want to be …

    Re : Megaman.

    He’s living proof that White Knighting works.

    Re : Lokland.

    Whatever else the women can say about him, his frame is strong … they can’t break it … now they’ve resorted to psycho-analyzing him … hilarious … chicks dig jerks after all …

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan,

    I was in a convo with a woman on OKC, and for some kind of reason she blocked me. This was while I still had the so-calledGollum Profile on it.

    I put up my photos on MyBestFace (the women compares your photos to that of other guys, votes between the two, and you get a report), and wrote thank-you-messages to all of the women who were kind enough to choose my photo/photos over that of other guys.

    As I said, this woman blocked me. Here is the entire convo :

    Me : My thanks to you for choosing my photo over that of the other guy. Online dating is brutal, nonetheless, it is my hope and my wish, that you will have success in this endeavor. Never give up.

    Sincerely.

    Marellus.

    Her : LOL, I don’t think you should feel bad about My Best Face, it’s not exactly the most scientific. I don’t know how I feel about online dating though, I sort of really hate it. However, I’ve never had a long-term relationship without it’s use, so I’m back on this thing.

    Is the ‘My Best Face’ the only thing that has been brutal about online dating? What is with your profile description? It’s pretty scary.

    Me : … scary you say ??? My deary darling, I’ve written that profile in the hopes that George W Bush’s daughters will accidentally read it, and then start voting for the Democrats !!! ;-)

    Her : You are really odd.

    Her (again) : But I’m only talking to you on this okcupid thing so I don’t think your strangeness is that bad.

    Me : Frankly N, what I’ve seen, is that everybody wears a mask, and the tired old trope is that one should have the courage to remove it. I disagree. Rather take a look at the mask itself – its form, its colours, its patterns – because sometimes such a mask is a truly beautiful thing … and then to point this out to its wearer, and then give that wearer the courage to really become what he/she is faking.

    We’re not perfect … we can only strive to be better … and we deserve applause for our efforts.

    … and here she blocked me. I don’t understand. I know I’m odd, but Suzan, in this instance, I can see nothing I did really wrong.

    Any observations ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      You definitely have niche appeal. :) Most women won’t “get you.” They don’t understand your humor, and feeling perplexed is not conducive to sexual attraction. You need to find a woman as quirky in her own way as you are. Perhaps you should search out some of the more unusual female profiles.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan,

    Thanks, I’ll see what I can do …

  • BuenaVista

    Susan, you’ll probably need to just ban Y chromosomes unless you want to establish some ground rules for both sexes — which won’t be the same for both sexes, because there is a striking, and very significant difference, in the male and female rhetorical and logical discussion styles. You could also just tell guys who are over 30, or has been divorced, as many of the commenters consider such perspectives to be irrelevant.

    Just wearing my digital marketing hat, I would expect traffic and discussion to plummet. But it can always be rebuilt if the premise, that the purpose of the blog is for young women to figure out how to hook up more intelligently, has market value. Then those women can gravitate to a site where there are no men who disagree with them. As it stands, the ‘disagreers’ are just immediately told to shut up in charming ad hominem terms, which is the form of ‘civility’ common to campuses these days. Of course this is how most women approach dating, and presumably why some of them are so frustrated that their expectations are not met in actual experience. But you seem to have a better grasp on most as to how most men of value think about relationships, so you could always be the wise sister counseling the sisterhood.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Then those women can gravitate to a site where there are no men who disagree with them. As it stands, the ‘disagreers’ are just immediately told to shut up in charming ad hominem terms, which is the form of ‘civility’ common to campuses these days.

      I don’t think disagreement is the issue, per se. I think most of the conflict centers around “red pill” issues. While I believe that a lot of red pill wisdom is true and real, I’m also more aware than most how over-the-top and trumped up much of it is in these parts. We’re all subject to massive amounts of bias, and around issues of mating, this bias is profound and impenetrable for many. This has resulted in perfectly ridiculous conversations involving torturous explanations of why CDC data is inaccurate, for example. Data is the enemy of many of these dearly held extreme red pill beliefs, I find, so a common response is to trash the data in hopes of maintaining the necessary illusions.

      here is a striking, and very significant difference, in the male and female rhetorical and logical discussion styles.

      While this is true, I find that these differences are easily navigated in social situations IRL. In my experience, dinner parties and other coed gatherings often include spirited debate that never turns ugly. I’ve asked commenters many times to conduct themselves as if they were in my living room. I don’t appreciate people pissing in the punchbowl. Just because we’re online doesn’t mean the gloves should come off and rudeness should prevail. This has been such an issue that many high traffic blogs, particularly in the sciences, have closed comments altogether.

      I don’t do this for the money, which doesn’t correlate to comment counts in any case. I’d rather have a harmonious experience blogging and cut my traffic in half than referee nasty exchanges between commenters, including myself.

  • JP

    “I think some market segmentation may be of value for guys on whether to try to open-mouth kiss on the first date or not.

    Seriously? Do people kiss today with their mouths closed? I don’t think I ever have. Not once.”

    Once again, I am reminded that I am a complete and absolute outlier in the world of man.

  • Bells

    @Jonathan,

    Most of the conversations here wouldn’t be very interesting without the participation of the more active male commenters. Women tend to share experiences, which is great, but they also tend to personalize everything and useful criticism gets muted. The high traffic on this blog attracts interest from some insightful commenters, some female but mostly male. That’s the Internet. Any blog that discouraged participation by men would lower its own intellectual quality.

    I’m not implying that all men should immediately cease participating in any forms of active discussion. I’m pretty sure that just a couple of comments ago, I was randomly talking about transgendered women. Besides, one of the reasons I love HUS is because I think it’s interesting to read the opinions of men on relationships and I gladly utilize constructive knowledge to help out with my own life.

    Anyways, my main point is that there have been a couple of threads that spiraled into the ground until the only people left standing were Susan and the male commenters– with nary a peep from most of the girls. Just watch out for that– that is all.

    And less bitter divorce talk would be nice as well.

  • BuenaVista

    Sorry, meant just ban the over-30 guys, or the guys who have been divorced. (This is how womens studies departments are organized, after all.) Their relationship and dating experiences have zero value to most of your females, and they’re tired of hearing about them. And we men are often just talking to each other, and you. (Which I enjoy very much, and find thoughtful, when I can muster the discipline to ignore the personal insults from the female quadrant and a couple of the white knights.) But we’re not your target market, are we.

    There’s probably a market for another blog such as ThePrivateMan is attempting to build, which is directed at men with relationship experience who are navigating the odd boundary between PUA and feminist culture incongruities. Occasionally a woman shows up there before the adolescent PUAs snarl at her.

    Just my $0.02. I know I gained a lot of insight into female expectations and motivations here in a short time, and that has informed my social life.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “It makes me think that the men I meet IRL are going to be like they are here. And I can’t say that it helps in a quest that requires positivity and confidence.

    The idea that HUS has actually interfered with healthy and productive dating, which several women have expressed, is devastating to me. I feel like I’ve created something truly monstrous.”

    Since this is a possibility, you need to figure out:

    (1) Whether it *has* so interfered, meaning whether the women telling you this are credible and it makes sense.

    (2) If so, which commenters are causing the problem.

    (3) Deal with the commenters, whether by advising them or by tossing them out.

  • JP

    “I’ve already blacklisted three IP addresses today and it’s only 8 a.m. I’m going to cut out every malignant commenter as soon as I detect them. Yesterday I was feeling really discouraged, but today I’m angry and determined. I’m not going to allow demented keyboard jockeys to highjack my blogchild.”

    Can you disable anon commenting?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Can you disable anon commenting?

      By that you mean people using the handle “Anonymous?” No. As long as people provide an email address they can comment.

  • Bells

    **Anyways, my main point is that there have been a couple of threads that spiraled into the ground until the only people left standing were Susan and the male commenters– with nary a peep from most of the girls. Just watch out for that because it implies that the negativity is alienating the blog’s primary audience

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyways, my main point is that there have been a couple of threads that spiraled into the ground until the only people left standing were Susan and the male commenters– with nary a peep from most of the girls. Just watch out for that because it implies that the negativity is alienating the blog’s primary audience

      Clearly, it’s up to me to withdraw from those protracted battles. Perhaps even close comments on certain threads. As one very smart commenter said, “You can’t give a rat even one pellet!”

  • JP

    @Susan

    Also, I recommend that you avoid contact with this s0-called Manosphere because it’s a toxic cesspool of hatred and despair.

  • Bells

    And also, I definitely think that the blog overall tone is getting much better because that’s one of the reasons I came out of lurking! I had been lurking for ages but I was too afraid to comment because I thought I would immediately get shut down by the older men if I said something stupid or naive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bells

      And also, I definitely think that the blog overall tone is getting much better because that’s one of the reasons I came out of lurking!

      That’s actually helpful feedback. I have recently managed to “lose” some difficult commenters, and that has improved things on my end. I’m definitely tossing and turning less in the middle of the night! Life is too short and I’m too old for that!

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Clearly, it’s up to me to withdraw from those protracted battles. Perhaps even close comments on certain threads. As one very smart commenter said, “You can’t give a rat even one pellet!””

    Locking the thread is an excellent blog-management tool.

    If it becomes Susan vs. Manosphere, simply say “I’m locking the thread because it’s become counterproductive”.

  • Escoffier

    “I am reminded that I am a complete and absolute outlier in the world of man.”

    Not entirely.

    On the general topic, Susan, keep in mind that the blog is devoted to just about the most sensetive subject there is. It’s not surprising that people get … sensetive. That said, I think it’s remarkably polite given the radioactive nature of the topic. I don’t see a way to make it more polite without making it also bland and uninformative.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Bells,

    I had been lurking for ages but I was too afraid to comment because I thought I would immediately get shut down by the older men if I said something stupid or naive.

    I agree that’s a problem, and one I have contributed to.

    I am coming to realize how many hot-button issues I and other men like me have that we aren’t fully conscious of. We are reacting to decades of insults to men and masculinity from feminists and society at large, and we are primed to (metaphorically) punch someone in the nose if they say certain things. So when a young woman walks in here and unknowingly spouts some offending rhetoric that she’s absorbed from her environment, she gets beaten up.

    That’s not fair – the sins of the mothers are being visited upon their daughters. But it’s hard to curb if one doesn’t fully understand why one has those reactions. And it’s even harder to curb if one has absorbed manosphere or MRA rationalizations for reacting that way.

    It would be ideal if we had one or more commentators who had sufficient insight and enlightenment to recognize those responses and put them in context, which might reduce the tendency to chase them down the rabbit hole or to escalate into quarrels. But I don’t see anyone here with those credentials. We’re all got our various agendas, issues and hot buttons.

  • Man

    Well, you know, the “sphere” is growing day by day and is on this “Holy War” against feminazis. If Susan makes clear that this a “man friendly zone”, then perhaps they might leave her and HUSsies more at peace. And then she needs to take a more aggressive role at moderation. My 0.02c.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    Interesting that Megaman is popular with the female commenters.

    I suspect the reason may be: objectivity (“best efforts”)

    And as a result, I’ve been called a woman or labeled feminine by some exceedingly cynical characters (may they rest in peace).

    It’s a badge of honor, considering the ladies, especially the blog host, are predominantly the rational, open-minded ones around here.

  • J

    @JP

    You know what I mean right?

    LMAO. No.

    @SW

    Clearly, it’s up to me to withdraw from those protracted battles. Perhaps even close comments on certain threads. As one very smart commenter said, “You can’t give a rat even one pellet!”

    You know, Roissy wielded a heavy ban hammer and moderated very heavily, often suppressing comments that were politely written but philosophically opposed to what he had to say. Sunshine Mary does not tolerate even the light trolling of the sort she herself did here. As to banning PJ, I agree with Marellus. Their interchanges are funny, and she’s sort of our GBFM. Also, I personally miss Iggles, Charm, Courtney, and the rest.

    As it stands, the ‘disagreers’ are just immediately told to shut up in charming ad hominem terms, which is the form of ‘civility’ common to campuses these days.

    As those who’ve been around for a while know, I used to comment extensively in the ‘sphere. My general tenor was polite but tenacious, low-key and factual. Obviously, I didn’t agree with much of what is said in the ‘sphere, but I NEVER spoke ad hom. In return, I was subjected to DAILY ad hom comments, including accusations of having married my husband for beta bux after a long ride on the carousel and feminizing my sons. Ad hom arguments, poking fun at people, limiting free speech or ridiculing people are hardly limited to this blog; nor is it do they comprise a female style of debate. The popularity at HUS of men deemed to be on a complementary wavelength is far less toady-ish than the near veneration of “submissive” female comenters in the ‘sphere–and accusing those men of “white knighting” is just an ad hom attempt to shut them down. If we are going to apply standards, let’s apply them equally.

  • J

    Wave, that was a really nice, self-reflective post. It takes a big spirit to do that sort of reflection and then to post about it.

  • Man

    Complementing my comment #550: feminism and gay’s rights movement go hand-in-hand. Men should watch out for that and support only heterosexual women, like most of HUSsies seem to be.

  • Esau

    Man at 554: “Men should watch out for that and support only heterosexual women, like most of HUSsies seem to be.”

    Hmm. What does “support” mean here? And what, exactly, do you think should be done, or not done, with (or to) the other kinds of women?

    I don’t know what Susan’s policy is about hosting anti-gay or homophobic rants of various kinds; but I would say don’t be coy! and let us know how you really feel.

  • pvw

    @ Susan, as I mentioned before, I have been lurking for a while, and I found this development interesting.

    @Bells: “I had been lurking for ages but I was too afraid to comment because I thought I would immediately get shut down by the older men if I said something stupid or naive.”

    Me: This is another difference between some of the communication styles on the blog, again, pointing to some (general) differences between men and women, which I have experienced as well on occasion.

    It isn’t just the manosphere types who think all women are eeevil, as J was talking about, and who will thus always be suspicious of Susan regardless of what she does and her protests that she is not a feminazi.

    So where one of the men reading your comment might call you out for being “stupid or naïve,” another person, male or female, might see it as being “young and inexperienced.” There is a big difference in tone between the two, in my opinion. The latter is more supportive and nurturing, in the way Susan might be imagining, ie., the way a mother might respond. While the other seems bent on crushing the young woman’s spirit, in light of what Mr. Wavevector described:

    “I am coming to realize how many hot-button issues I and other men like me have that we aren’t fully conscious of. We are reacting to decades of insults to men and masculinity from feminists and society at large, and we are primed to (metaphorically) punch someone in the nose if they say certain things. So when a young woman walks in here and unknowingly spouts some offending rhetoric that she’s absorbed from her environment, she gets beaten up.

    That’s not fair – the sins of the mothers are being visited upon their daughters. But it’s hard to curb if one doesn’t fully understand why one has those reactions. And it’s even harder to curb if one has absorbed manosphere or MRA rationalizations for reacting that way.”

    Me: Seeing enough of the manosphere type arguments out there, I find I’m very suspicious of it when I see inklings of it. A fair number of them seem to really be about crushing women, which has always bothered me.

    They say they hate the evil harpies and carousel riders, so why are they acting that way in response to women who don’t appear to be like that? That sort of attitude, can if anything, result in more of what they say they don’t like: women who move towards the feminazi camp of thinking all men are “evil.” The women here are not their ex-wives or some all the other women whom they perceived as having done them wrong. So they should not treat them as emotional punching bags. Get a therapist to work through those issues.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      Good to see you on the thread. I agree with your take on tone – I would like to see us all err on the side of liberality; let’s cut each other some slack!

      Online debate tends to be rather rough, but I fear we hide behind that as an excuse to treat one another with rudeness. I see no reason why that needs to be the case, and I am going to try to delete those comments and “nip it in the bud” rather than respond, which of course just fuels the fire.

  • pvw

    Oh, and follow-up, my comment about men using women as emotional punching bags needing to get a therapist and so forth, was not directed to any specific mail commenter, Mr. Wavevector included, but an observation in general, that anonymous conversations on the internet are not the place for some of the deep healing that some people need. It might be a start, it might help some, but others have issues that are much deeper than anyone on an anonymous blog can handle.

  • pvw

    oops “male commenter”

  • Man

    @Esau: #555. I equate feminism with gay movement. I have already stated elsewhere that I don’t support both feminism and gay movement. Which means that I should support straight (heterosexual) men’s right and policies which support mutual understanding and cooperation between straight (heterosexual) couples and stable (straight) families.

  • Esau

    Thanks for the reply, Man; but I’m afraid you leave me none the wiser here. What, specifically, is in this “gay movement” that you do not support? Do you hold, for example, that openly gay people should not see allowed to serve in the military? to hold high office? to teach in public schools? to get the same healthcare as everyone else? It would help a lot if you could describe specifics, beyond the very general “not support”.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    The ‘vaginas are a commodity’ post reminds me of why we call economics the dismal science. The first mistake of economics was to try to make it quantitative, instead of admitting it is inherently qualitative. The second was not calling is ‘economic history’.

  • Lokland

    @Maurellus

    “now they’ve resorted to psycho-analyzing him”

    I’ll admit it almost hurt for a second. Almost.

    Having Jackie psycho-analyze me has mostly just become part of the cost of commenting here.

    I doubt anything I can do will make it stop and most of the time its mildly amusing so might as well fuel the fire.

    I’ll admit, other than disagreeing with people I am not sure what I could have done to spark it however.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Toes

    The ‘vaginas are a commodity’ post reminds me of why we call economics the dismal science. The first mistake of economics was to try to make it quantitative, instead of admitting it is inherently qualitative. The second was not calling is ‘economic history’.

    Why is it the fault of economists that someone went off on a rant about vaginas=commodities?

    Applying some market logic to dating doesn’t necessarily mean that we all think all women are entirely inter-changable!

  • Man

    @Esau:

    Do you hold, for example, that openly gay people should not see allowed to serve in the military? to hold high office? to teach in public schools? to get the same healthcare as everyone else?

    I am not homophobic. I am mostly concerned about fostering mutual understanding and cooperation between men and women with a view on promoting and protecting stable, straight families and the children’s inalienable right to have a fair, unbiased education and development free of any “social engineering” agendas or policies.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    How does being against the Gay Rights movement foster an atmosphere free of bias? I would consider promoting only “straight values” as an inherent form of bias.

    What exactly about the Gay Rights movement do you object to? Someone else asked you earlier, and I feel the need to re-ask the same question.

    I have a feeling that you are being purposefully obtuse/vague with your answers because you do not want to come across as homophobic or incur harsh criticism. Why not be honest about your opinions, and we can judge you freely and accordingly?

  • Mireille

    I am not homophobic. I am mostly concerned about fostering mutual understanding and cooperation between men and women with a view on promoting and protecting stable, straight families and the children’s inalienable right to have a fair, unbiased education and development free of any “social engineering” agendas or policies.

    Quite a mouthful to say I don’t want gay people to have the same rights as I do and be integrated in secular society. I hear you anti-gay person, you’re entitled to your opinion.

  • Man

    @Sassy: Come on, Sassy. Now you and everybody else want me to support gay and feminist agendas. That absolutely doesn’t look like an atmosphere free of bias. The proof is that anyone who doesn’t comply with feminist and gay agendas can be automatically labeled homophobic and/or incur harsh criticism. So I will be more specific: for instance, I support measures which are being taken in Russia to protect children from gay propaganda. That’s a way to promote an atmosphere free of bias, to my mind, which currently is heavily in favor of the feminist and gay agenda. Feminist and gay “social engineering” should also be banned from schools and media, such as teaching boys to be and behave like girls. What do you think?

  • Mireille

    What is gay propaganda? I’m just curious, I have a lot of gay friends and I don’t see what they want as different from what I want so in essence, their “propaganda” is good for me too, see what I mean?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    Come on, Sassy. Now you and everybody else want me to support gay and feminist agendas. That absolutely doesn’t look like an atmosphere free of bias. The proof is that anyone who doesn’t comply with feminist and gay agendas can be automatically labeled homophobic and/or incur harsh criticism. So I will be more specific: for instance, I support measures which are being taken in Russia to protect children from gay propaganda. That’s a way to promote an atmosphere free of bias, to my mind, which currently is heavily in favor of the feminist and gay agenda. Feminist and gay “social engineering” should also be banned from schools and media, such as teaching boys to be and behave like girls. What do you think?

    1. I couldn’t give two shits about what you choose to believe. You have the freedom to believe anything you want.

    2. What I do have a problem with is imbeciles who think that publicly voicing their beliefs won’t potentially incur harsh criticism for them. Spout off your “Anti-Gay Rights” beliefs all you want around like-minded company, or in the comfort of your own home, but don’t think that you can say things like that in a public arena and not have people call your views into question. No one originally asked you about what your views on Gay Rights were. You, in your own mind, thought it was a good idea to say that you don’t support the Gay Rights movement without any sort of clarification in 2-3 separate comments. Did you honestly think that no one on this blog would have qualms with that statement?

    3. You need to really understand what the word “bias” means. I’ll even do you a solid by posting the definition of the word for you.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias

    : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice
    c : an instance of such prejudice

    You say that you want your children to have their “inalienable rights” respected by not being exposed to biased propaganda. I almost chocked on the pizza I was eating at the stupidity of this comment. You don’t want them exposed to biased propaganda, but what you don’t realize is that limiting their exposure to only “straight propaganda” is a direct form of bias. You hide behind the label of bias, and you have absolutely no clue with the word means. You fear being labeled homophobic, yet some of the things you say definitely can be interpreted that way.

    4. If you don’t want your views on Gay Rights scrutinized by people, you should probably learn to hold your tongue in public forums where you have no idea about the attitudes/opinions of your audience. You didn’t honestly expect that we would all be against the Gay Rights movement, did you? You had to have known that your comments would incite inquiry. You should probably learn when to keep your mouth shut, especially if you are so concerned with being judged negatively for your views.

  • Man

    Alright, you’re all free and entitled to believe in what you think is best for you. I was not trying to convince anybody of anything. I was only trying to defend Susan’s work and website, as I perceive her and many HUSsies as being straight, heterosexual women.

    To my mind, if standing for straight families and the children’s inalienable right to have a straight family and education free of bias means being homophobic then I can only congratulate the gay and feminist movement for so successfully “socially engineering” their policies (at least in the Western world), under the dictatorship of the politically correct. But know what, even feminists and gays need to be born from heterosexual couples (at least in nature).

    P.S.: I am not really interested in this discussion. And I am not homophobic. I am against all extremism.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    Uh huh.

    “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

    - Abraham Lincoln

  • Sassy6519

    Add me to the list of people who think that INTJ has been using the new handle of Man.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Man

    Not sure what you mean by the Gay Rights biasness needed to be suppressed either. Note that I am not “politically correct” and often have to stop myself from rolling my eyes when “Liberals” start talking.

    What exactly are you getting at?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Sassy

    Add me to the list of people who think that INTJ has been using the new handle of Man.

    The motion is seconded!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Add me to the list of people who think that INTJ has been using the new handle of Man.

      Interesting. I don’t think so, though. INTJ is rude and self-absorbed. He never gives compliments to anyone. Man has been working his way through the archives – and he had my back during the mate poaching debate, which I appreciated. INTJ would never have put himself out that way.

  • Man

    @Sassy:

    You don’t want them exposed to biased propaganda, but what you don’t realize is that limiting their exposure to only “straight propaganda” is a direct form of bias.

    Exactly. In a world with overwhelming bias to determined groups, what the others are supposed to do: voice their opinions. If even this is forbidden, then when we are not living in a true democracy. Then those groups which have no voice have to fight for their rights. That’s what the so called “sphere” is doing. It’s their right as well.

    You may not realize it, but you are operating under politically correct ideas which no one should defy. By the way, I am not imbecile and I wasn’t afraid of criticism no. Actually I was quite expecting it. No problem. And you sound like a dominatrix. :) That’s not a feminine trait.

  • Sassy6519

    @

    Exactly. In a world with overwhelming bias to determined groups, what the others are supposed to do: voice their opinions. If even this is forbidden, then when we are not living in a true democracy. Then those groups which have no voice have to fight for their rights. That’s what the so called “sphere” is doing. It’s their right as well.

    Um, you do realize that we live in a hetero-normative society that promotes and supports the heterosexual agenda everyday, and substantially more frequently than supposedly “gay” agendas. You really know nothing of what you speak.

    You may not realize it, but you are operating under politically correct ideas which no one should defy.

    Once again, no. I don’t have a “politically correct” mind frame. I have controversial thoughts on a lot of topics. I just know when and where to say such things.

    And you sound like a dominatrix. That’s not a feminine trait.

    Meh…….if the leather bodice and riding crop fits……….

  • Man

    @ADBG:

    What exactly are you getting at?

    I am publicly being execrated for just voicing my contempt for feminist and gay “social engineering”, purportedly trying to eliminate natural gender differences which they perceive as “social constructions”; and also for claiming that children have an inalienable right to have a straight and normal/healthy family with a father and a nurturing mother, and education and development free from feminist/gay propaganda and you’re still wondering? Study more about the wonders of Swedish feminism and you will understand more about where I am coming from and how “unbiased” and democratic these movements are. My 0.02c.

  • Man

    @Sassy: Sorry, I am not your slave. :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Man

    Sorry, I am not your slave.

    So you say…

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Gotcha, Man, but it is very confusing when at first you say you are against the Gay Rights movement. That’s going to be a hot-button statement for a lot of people.

    Um, you do realize that we live in a hetero-normative society that promotes and supports the heterosexual agenda everyday, and substantially more frequently than supposedly “gay” agendas. You really know nothing of what you speak.

    What is a “hetero-normative” society? Which society? The New York society or the Utah society? How do you measure? How do you measure the preponderance of different agendas? What even IS the heterosexual agenda? Is it promoting families and making babies? Because then Singapore isn’t very friendly to the “hetero-sexual” society and neither is Japan. Is it supporting hook-up culture? Is it soft harem?

    I have nothing against gay rights, but I certainly do not want a leftist alliance of feminists and gay rights activists advocating a shifting a cultural norms to feminize men. Which is what Man is saying.

    Of course, that men are acting unconfident and woman-like more than they need to, and that they need to exhibit more Masculine qualities, will be taken at face value here…so we will see who challenges the statement now that hot-button topics are added in to that. :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ ADBG

    Read the following (remember to take some of the information with a grain of salt, considering that the source is wikipedia).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity

    When I refer to a hetero-normative society, I am talking about mainstream American culture. In our culture, heterosexuality is the norm. Most media outlets promote heterosexuality much more than homosexuality. Marriage laws, in most states, promote heterosexuality over homosexuality. Most depictions of families are presented as a heterosexual couple. It wasn’t until a few decades ago that a public homosexual culture in the US was allowed to flourish without severe stigmatization, violence, and backlash.

    I have absolutely no problem with the promotion of heterosexual ideals. The majority of people in the US have heterosexual identities, and the promotion of it is not wrong. What I do have a problem with is the idea that avenues of public self expression should be denied to the homosexual culture. A hetero-normative society is one where heterosexual ideas/values are promoted while other sexual identities are obscured, shamed, or stifled.

    The idea that completely stifling homosexual ideas/values in the public media isn’t biased is completely wrong. I understand that the US has come a long way in the past 3-4 decades on this matter, but there are still issues.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I was being somewhat facetious. You know I used to read Jezebel daily? A lot of these issues are not new to me. Hell, some of my best friends are gay! ;)

    Okay, I haven’t spoken to them since college, so not really my best friends, but, seriously, couldn’t care less.

    What Man is SUGGESTING, although he isn’t saying it, is that strengthening the gay movement auto-implies weakening proper hetero-sexual identities. Mostly, because Gay Rights Activists and those sympathetic to them are in league with the various feminizing-influences in society that are fucking things up.

    I don’t agree that allow homosexual identity to be expressed automatically entails suppression of proper masculine identity, anymore than I would agree that gay marriage automatically leads to polygamy.

    So I am one of the few Republicans to, say, support gay marriage. I am also probably one of the few REPUBLICANS you will hear talking about the prison state we have built (not including Libertarians in that), or talking about discrimination in the job market, or…you know, etc.

    HOWEVER:

    My priorities are more inclined towards other issues.

    I had a conversation about this with the GF the other day. She is not very political, so she has absorbed your basic blue-state politically unaware dogma: Obama is great, abortion is constantly under threat and about to be banned but great, we have made great progress on race, now about to do it on gay marriage, I wonder how society will be in 30 years and what we will be fighting about then?

    Meanwhile, I am much more inclined into restraining the financial sector, promoting growth, getting the long-term unemployed reintegrated, restraining health-care growth, and keeping an eye on China so they don’t get too uppity. Gay Marriage and Abortion debates annoy me because they are distracting.

    But rather than the “social progress” she sees, I see a bunch of broken families, an aging population, low innovation, immigrants not assimilating, and declining male labor force participation.

  • Man

    @ADBG: I think you are a nice, civilized and educated guy, as a definite beta guy. So I wish to share something with you.

    Formerly here at HUS I argued that “sense of justice”, “judgements of moral order” and “reason” is not an inherent female characteristic…” which understandably infuriated a lot of people, including this high IQ and EI heterosexual blog hostess, which I admire.

    I understand that not all women are feminists. I qualify these women as heterosexual. I have to do so, because when I read the news about the havoc that Swedish feminists have caused to one of the most developed countries of the world (with a lot of civilized and educated men by the way), then I can only conclude that feminism is a global giant shit test and all countries who tolerated feminism have failed, which is reflected in the below replacement level birth rates (although there are other factors).

    Basically it means that countries where feminism doesn’t have the upper hand, such as in Muslim and mysoginist countries in Africa and elsewhere, have ultimately the strategic upper hand on the long run. Now tell me: do you see feminists rallying to support women’s rights in those countries? Do you them organizing female troops to go and fight there for these women? This is what I call the quintessential feminist sense of justice (it’s quite screwed and inverted in logical standards, by the way). But in order to NOT offend feminine women, I understand that this has more to do with feminism instead. I think it’s an insult to womankind to call a woman a feminist nowadays. And, fortunately, at least I am under this impression, there are not many of them here at HUS which make feel a little relieved. We need more women like Susan, making a conscious choice to fight for what is right. This is the only way to safeguard women’s best interests as a whole and promote understanding and cooperation between the genders and preserve some of the best values and achievements of our civilization.

    My last tip for those who support politically correct ideas without making some basic inquiries: prepare for massive Islamic immigration. :) I’m gonna close this discussion. I have other things to do and I am not so interested in making these discussions here at HUS. I think it’s not the proper place for that. All the best.

  • Anacaona

    Sexual orientation, Feminism, Democracy…We all should aspire to be like the Swedish IMO

  • Anacaona

    immigrants not assimilating
    We do our best! :P

  • Sassy6519

    I think that “hipster” males are often so attractive to women because they display attraction cues that are not as often displayed.

    These would be:

    An authentic/interesting sense of fashion: (they separate themselves from mainstream preppy/business casual fashion, which makes them stand out. Too many men walk around looking like overgrown frat boys. It’s played out, and not that attractive. Hipster males, although their fashion can be outrageous sometimes, successfully perform visual peacocking. Their interesting physical appearances catch the attention of women effectively).

    Artistic prowess: (I’ve often found that most hipster males have at least one dominant avenue of artistic expression. They either sing, play an instrument in a band, paint, sculpt, draw, or participate in photography. I don’t think men understand just how powerful of an attraction cue artistry is to us. Check out the following article link to a relatively recent study. It touches on this)

    http://www.spring.org.uk/2013/05/the-incredible-dating-power-of-a-guitar-case.php

    Rebellious appearance/personality: (One big allure of the “badboy” is that he appears rebellious. He isn’t afraid of going against mainstream society. He seems dangerous, and it’s a turn-on. There is a reason why motorcycles are notorious chick magnets. It’s the same thing with tattoos, which hipsters seem to often have).

    Hipster males tend to have a preponderance of these traits. It doesn’t surprise me that this archetype of males is so successful with women.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Sassy, excellent overview. I would be interested in hearing more about how your radar system picks up on these cues, edgy wardrobe & style choices that you find most attractive, etc.

  • Sassy6519

    Oooops! Wrong thread.

  • Sai

    @ADBG
    “Meanwhile, I am much more inclined into restraining the financial sector, promoting growth”

    +1
    I’d rather live with a good economy and arguments about gender roles than have everyone super-moral and starving.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    ADBG = A Disciple of Barry Goldwater?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Pretty sure most modern Republicans would call me a RINO, though….

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hahahahaha, Ana, don’t take that statement as bashing immigrants. Of my closest friends, ALL of them are first or second generation except the GF and the person who introduced them. My favorite co-worker is a first generation immigrant from Nicaragua, who is married to a cocky Beta type.

    Funny story! Everyone else likes her, too. One of my other co-workers commented on her husband today, saying he doesn’t like him because he is so cocky. Then he followed up with “but I guess if I were married to her, I’d be cocky too.”

    I told my GF about him, too. She actually wants to meet him. He is an outright liar, but they are hilarious lies and giving. Ex: he bought flowers and sent them to his wife’s desk, just randomly. Then he called up the wife to say “oh, yeah, our son called me from school and wanted to know if you got the flowers.”
    Adorable lies!

    @ Sai

    I’d rather live with a good economy and arguments about gender roles than have everyone super-moral and starving.

    Quite!

    Actually, I don’t see arguments about Gender Roles as bad things. I did when I was younger and dumber. But these days, I see gender differentiation as a very good thing, and entails some sense of “roles.” there will obviously be tension, and discussion and re-evaluation is important, but their mere existence is something to be cherished, not hated.

    Sort of like, arguments about tax policy suck, but it’s better than shooting at each other. It’s a sign that the system is working as intended.

    I am also finding that I am perhaps becoming a tad too patriarchal, though. Though now that I have that viewpoint in my head, it’s now understandable to see the appeal and the (possibly illusory) benefits, as well as the limitations on both gender.

    For instance, I am simultaneously driven to yell at the men-folk for speaking ill of the women-folk, and ESPECIALLY for assuming ill-intentions of the married women-folk.
    I am also somewhat inclined to send all the “players” to live in a Monastery for 3 or 4 years.

    On the other hand, a large part of me wants to yell at the single women-folk I see and tell them that they are far, far, FAR more pleasant to deal with when attached to a strong man. And that this should be a major priority for them, and that bearing and mothering children is an extremely important social responsibility that should not be shunned, or not thought about.

    I am not saying that this is my prevailing personality trait, but since the addition of several babies to family Beta, the patriarchal side of ADBG is starting to wave a stick around.

  • Anacaona

    @ADBG
    Not taken, just rolling with the immigrant thing.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Man,

    Do you seriously not understand the difference between the words ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’?

    Sincerely,

    Mr. Nervous Toes

    P.S. Anyone who thinks gay men support feminism (or femininism) is a maroon. Second ‘o’ firmly indented. Seriously, WTF? See Dan Savage, Andrew Sullivan, etc. Jesus what a stupid fucking ignorant association to make. Gay men are, in many cases, the _only_ strong voice for masculinism in North America of signficance. Google ‘gay bears’.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Mr. INTJ has his own blog now (sophomoric-ish)

    E: link removed

    He probably isn’t Man, given I really don’t think he’d supplicate like Plain Jane does by changing his handle. I’d put money on it, anyway. $20 anyone?

  • Jonathan

    BuenaVista 537:

    Sorry, meant just ban the over-30 guys, or the guys who have been divorced. (This is how womens studies departments are organized, after all.) Their relationship and dating experiences have zero value to most of your females, and they’re tired of hearing about them. And we men are often just talking to each other, and you.

    Not sure if you are being facetious here about zero value. Whether you are or not, I disagree with your statement as written. One reason why our old-guy talk is at least somewhat relevant on a blog aimed at young women is that men — including young men — increasingly pay attention to the issues that concern us geezers. Women who dismiss or ignore such issues flag themselves as being higher-risk for long-term relationships. This comes back to the point about how women who sincerely like men and enjoy their company raise their relationship value relative to women who see men mainly as means to the ends they favor. A woman who dismisses male concerns about divorce inequality shows, at the least, a deficit of empathy. It’s a bit like a man who makes rape jokes. This is not a desirable quality in a LTR partner.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Interesting. I don’t think so, though.

    Reincarnation? Given his Indian roots, it’s plausible…

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    ‘Most of the guys I’ve messed around with, I’ve actually met at straight clubs,” says D., a 21-year-old college student on the DL whom I met on the Internet, and then in person in New York City. ”Guys will come up to me and ask me some stupid thing like, ‘Yo, you got a piece of gum?’ I’ll say, ‘Nah, but what’s up?’ Some guys will look at me and say, ‘What do you mean, what’s up?’ but the ones on the DL will keep talking to me.” Later he adds: ”It’s easier for me to date guys on the DL. Gay guys get too clingy, and they can blow your cover. Real DL guys, they have something to lose, too. It’s just safer to be with someone who has something to lose.”

    D. says he prefers sex with women, but he sometimes has sex with men because he ”gets bored.” But even the DL guys I spoke with who say they prefer sex with men are adamant that the nomenclature of white gay culture has no relevance for them. ”I’m masculine,” as one 18-year-old college student from Providence, R.I., who is on the DL told me over the phone. ”There’s no way I’m gay.” I asked him what his definition of gay is. ”Gays are the faggots who dress, talk and act like girls. That’s not me.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/03/magazine/double-lives-on-the-down-low.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    Sept. 18, 2006 — Nearly one in 10 men who say they’re straight have sex only with other men, a New York City survey finds.

    And 70% of those straight-identified men having sex with men are married.

    In fact, 10% of all married men in this survey report same-sex behavior during the past year.

    This means safe-sex messages aimed at straight and gay men are likely missing this important subgroup, suggest Preeti Pathela, DrPH, New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, and colleagues.

    http://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20060918/many-straight-men-have-gay-sex?src=RSS_PUBLIC

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    About the only thing which I can add to this, is about a conversation I once had with a friend of mine. He was a mechanical engineer, handsome, articulate, and he had problems with his girlfriend. He talked about her a lot. And finally he admitted to me that they weren’t having sex anymore.

    There were tears in his eyes as he told me this.

    I could only listen ; there was no advice I could give.

    Later in the conversation he started talking about gays. He was vociferous in his disgust with them. He went into graphic details about how they have sex with one another … and he told me repeatedly how much this disgusted him.

    I could only listen.

    After he left, I started wondering why a man in a sexless relationship would harp on about the gay lifestyle, and then it struck me.

    He was considering such a lifestyle.

  • Man

    Gay men are, in many cases, the _only_ strong voice for masculinism in North America of signficance.

    Precisely, that’s what genuinely alarms me. Gay men love to be around places, virtual or not, where there are a lot of men. So, to my mind, they are attracted to “masculinist” blogs as well. I have raised this question once in a while and I always face protests.

    I am afraid that this so called “masculinism” is getting a sort of “freak” movement just like feminism, whose end is only about female bashing. Of course gay men love this because they want “masculine” men as much as or even more than women.

    As far as I am concerned, I think that heterosexual men should support heterosexual women and not engage into indiscriminate female bashing, if the MRM doesn’t want to morph into a freak movement of dysfunctional extremists (this is a real danger, just like what happened with feminism). One of the reasons, by the way, I never use this word “masculinism”: it evokes the symmetrical opposite of “feminism” which is not really good. I also avoid to endorse extremist “movements” of any kind.

    As I stated before, I support debates and policies which promote the mutual understanding and cooperation between the genders and the stability of healthy and normal/straight families. That’s my stance. That’s why I also support Susan’s work here at HUS.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    I support debates and policies which promote the mutual understanding and cooperation between the genders. *

    Disclaimer: conciliatory lip service

    * At least one exception being: the results of comparative experimental math testing.

  • Man

    Disclaimer: conciliatory lip service

    No, it’s not. I am making clear that I only support heterosexual men and women, understanding and cooperation between them, straight/normal families and children’s inalienable rights to a healthy/straight family and unbiased education and development. Reread my previous comments in this thread if you still didn’t get it. I also support Russia’s stance on this issue.

    About the math debate, you proved to be very far from objective. I’m over with that.

  • J

    After he left, I started wondering why a man in a sexless relationship would harp on about the gay lifestyle, and then it struck me.

    He was considering such a lifestyle.

    So is he thinking he should go gay because this woman/women in general aren’t attracted to him? Or are women rejecting of him because they sense he’s a closeted gay? Or can he not function with a woman? I’m not quite understanding the story.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    J,

    So is he thinking he should go gay because this woman/women in general aren’t attracted to him? Or are women rejecting of him because they sense he’s a closeted gay? Or can he not function with a woman? I’m not quite understanding the story.

    Methinks that since he couldn’t get sex from his girlfriend, he won’t have much luck with other women, so the only option left to him, is to have sex/relationships with men … and that was a horror to him.

    Never underestimate what men will do, not to be lonely J.

    He wasn’t the first one I saw that was like this.

    I was in a bar one evening and started talking with one of the regulars. That guy was truly odd. He was a great reader of people; not afraid to speak his mind; once went into a township and bought marijuana for an old lady, so that she could make some kind of tea for her migraines – which actually worked; once hovered around a pretty girl (with the other men), and when said pretty girl got up to leave, he rubbed his fingers on her seat and smelled theatrically at it – he couldn’t give a f*ck …

    … until the conversation shifted to his wife …

    A sad story. The wife is a nurse whose work colleagues are into feminism. These friends mindfucked the wife to such an extent, that one evening when she returned home, she went to her two teenage sons and told them flat-out that they are rapists …

    Rapists.

    Just like that.

    He calmed her down, but other than that, his life with her is hell. As he told me his story, I thought to myself, that this guy was failing shit-test after shit-test with his wife.

    I could only listen. Yet again, I could only listen.

    Eventually he started sitting closer to me, tried to touch me, asked me if we could talk again. When I said yes, he started calling the next meeting a ‘date’. He was adamant about having my phone number. I gave it to him.

    But I think he typed it in wrong. Because when I saw him the next time, he was upset about my not answering his text messages. So he read his last text message to me, out loud and somewhat drunkenly, to the whole bar.

    It might as well have been a beta sending a timid ‘I love you’ text message to a hot chick.

    Luckily there wasn’t a lot of people in the bar.

    After that event, I neither saw nor heard from him ever again.

    But he was curious about the gay lifestyle.

    I can’t say I blame him.

  • Mireille

    Marellus,

    You live in SA, right? In CT? I’d I’m not surprised about there having so many closeted gay men there. I suppose the new generations are more comfortable living openly.

    A lot of men who are homosexual but repressed it by marrying women can be doubly disappointed when marriage fails. It’s worse for them because I’m sure they think they sacrificed so much for the sake of propriety. The truth is marriage is already hard for guys who actually like women, so you have to know what you can take on.

  • Anacaona

    Never underestimate what men will do, not to be lonely J.
    Actually in the sexuality spectrum there is such a thing as people that lacking contact with the opposite gender are willing to go ‘gay’ temporarily or circumstantially. Sailors and prison stories are proof of this.

  • BuenaVista

    Jonathon 598.

    Not being facetious. Opinions that I’ve (or some other guys over 30) offered here resulted in personal insults, mind-reading (how I really feel, what my real motivations are) and even a couple of personality profiles, including a few that described me as clinically ill. Susan and a few of the men engage on the basis of fact or logic. Few others do.

    What people like me thought was a discussion group is really just a social group. If it were a discussion group that women only enjoy when the mean men are somewhere else doing men things, the posts that men ignore would not have 100x fewer comments. By definition, people who already have fixed opinions and received ideas see no reason to contribute new opinions or new ideas. And because it’s a social group, they are unable to simply ignore the people whose opinions or comments they dislike. So given that the females already have their opinions fixed, it’s very easy to see why a dissenting idea invokes such emotional and content-free reactions: they’re just saying: “We don’t want you to say that in our social group. Shut up and then get out.” Scroll above for examples. Ostracism rarely exists in intellectual discussions; the dumb people are just ignored. Ostracism is central to social groups, which consider differences of opinion threatening.

    Thus I’d say that it’s very accurate to say that the females ascribe zero value to my perspective. That’s fine. I understand that most people are not educated, and therefore most people on the internet are also uneducated; nevertheless, a person who tries to relate information about how the world works, who is repeatedly slandered in response, is probably in the wrong card game.

    And yes, I agree, I think I know a lot of men over 30 who have very constructive suggestions for creating and sustaining a hetero LTR. Oddly, the opinions held by the married as well as divorced men, liberal and conservative, are very, very similar. Those opinions are of zero value here. I’m learning a lot about how women respond to anything that challenges a feminist talking point, and it explains a lot of the self-sabotaging behavior I encounter with women while dating or in relationships. I’d say at least 50% of the women I date actively undermine their own purposes. It’s more obvious why, this week, than it was before I stumbled onto this blog a few weeks ago.

  • Anacaona

    Oddly, the opinions held by the married as well as divorced men, liberal and conservative, are very, very similar.
    Hubby opinions are usually in line with Megaman’s for the record. He has other pursuits that interest him more than talking about relationships. This is just a self selected sample on many ways.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    You live in SA, right? In CT?

    Saudi Arabia ?????

    Salaam Mireille …

  • Mireille

    I meant South Africa.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Ana,

    Actually in the sexuality spectrum there is such a thing as people that lacking contact with the opposite gender are willing to go ‘gay’ temporarily or circumstantially. Sailors and prison stories are proof of this.

    That was brilliant Ana. You’ve won.

    Congratulations !!!

    Your prize will be a signed copy of Plane Jane’s book How To Catch Flies With Vinegar !!!

    3:-)

  • Mireille

    @BV,

    Don’t embarrass the other guys on this blog by lumping them with you. There are many other guys married, single, restricted or not, who comment here all the time, and who are not afraid to expose their issues. Most people commenting here are not even ultra feminists. There are disagreements all the time but we learn and move on.
    I’m really tired of some men saying that because you won’t accept their abusive bs, you have to be a feminist or some other philosophical insult. A lot of guys of all age contribute here and help the dialogue progress. If people don’t like your brand of “truth”, study your presentation again; just don’t poison the well for other guys.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    :twisted:

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    I meant South Africa.

    hehehehe.

    Anyway, you have a point with gays being out of their depth in some marriages. Nonetheless, there does seem to be men that turn gay for other reasons.

    They exist. I’ve seen it.

    The question is, what are their numbers ?

    I dunno.

    What I will say though, is that some men will do strange things not to be lonely.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan, why did my last comment go into mod ???

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Suzan, why did my last comment go into mod ???

      Beats me, I already have you whitelisted! Will keep an eye out.

  • Anacaona

    Your prize will be a signed copy of Plane Jane’s book How To Catch Flies With Vinegar !!!
    You mean my sentence ;)
    I oppose book burning that I could at least roast marshmallows with that one :P

  • BuenaVista

    Mireille:

    GRRRRR.

    In case parsing English is a challenge, I was replying to Jonathon. I was only trolling for someone like you to prove my points.

    Because you really can’t make this stuff up.

    If my tone or “presentation” is a problem, why are you commenting on it instead of ignoring it, meanwhile admonishing me to be more like other people and join the group? Maybe I don’t want to be like the group? Why the fuck would I want to be like other people, especially the ones who don’t like me? Errr. Logic is being a bully today.

    Anyway, like I said in the previous post, for some reason the females prefer to hang out and admonish men rather than contribute to the gurlz posts. There’s data on that. See above, here. Also, when they disagree with someone they make appeals to group dynamics; the deficiencies of the person, not the argument; and hey, since we’re wasting time, let’s throw out another straw man out there (“ultra feminists”). I don’t really know what an “ultra feminist” is, so I haven’t referenced any. But I have certainly learned a lot here about how women react to asymmetric information. It’s extremely helpful when I watch a woman, who professes to want a relationship, melt down because something she believes isn’t true. After the meltdown, within 30 seconds, comes the attack. And these are all women in the cognitive elite; i.e., they think and manage for a living, just not for loving. It’s rather like watching an extinction burst. Like what you’re doing: stalking my every post and pointing out my deficiencies. What, exactly, is the point of that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyway, like I said in the previous post, for some reason the females prefer to hang out and admonish men rather than contribute to the gurlz posts.

      I’ve already pointed out the fallacy of this claim.

      If my tone or “presentation” is a problem, why are you commenting on it instead of ignoring it, meanwhile admonishing me to be more like other people and join the group?

      I for one pay dearly when I ignore poor tone and presentation on the blog. We’re not addressing the content of what people say, but the way in which they say it. Men often have trouble with this idea, and call it ad hom. Well, I’m sorry, but if presentation didn’t matter, people wouldn’t be more afraid of pubic speaking than they are of death. It’s very, very difficult to see the “truth” in someone’s statement while one is being virtually bludgeoned about the head while hearing it.

      I ask for civility rather than rudeness:

      Civil (def.): not rude; marked by satisfactory (or especially minimal) adherence to social usages and sufficient but not noteworthy consideration for others; “even if he didn’t like them he should have been civil”- W.S. Maugham

      I don’t think that minimal adherence to social usages is too much to ask.

      Why do so few people understand the basic principles of marketing? If you want to share your ideas and have them accepted, you must find a way to effectively deliver the message, and that has nothing to do with gender.

  • Mireille

    @BV,

    Maybe it is that in spite of your pathetic reductions, I still feel like you can still contribute. However, I get it now that you don’t care. Suits you!

    Also I don’t really care that you were addressing Jonathan; if you’re going to criticize the women commenting here, in front of everyone to read, what do you expect?!

    Anyway, good day!

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @man

    About the math debate, you proved to be very far from objective. I’m over with that.

    Well, I wasn’t the one compounding one logical fallacy after another. Methinks your definition of “objectivity” originates from the Twilight Zone…

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ana
    Your hubby sounds very grounded, and smarter than I am; he doesn’t spend any of his spare time arguing with anonymous know-it-alls. :wink:

    And I’d never join a club that would have me as a member. Most especially *that* one.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Oh, also, before I lose train of thought:

    The GF does enjoy closed-mouth kisses.

    She also said she enjoys something else, but I am not allowed to put it on HUS ;)

  • Esau

    Susan: “Why do so few people understand the basic principles of marketing? If you want to share your ideas and have them accepted, you must find a way to effectively deliver the message, and that has nothing to do with gender.”

    I wouldn’t disagree with this statement as written; but its reality can hinge on the exact incarnation of “accepted” and “effectively”, which may be counter-intuitive to your MBA orientation. To put it simply, some truths, especially those at large deviance from what the listener already believes, are more likely to be understood and — eventually — accepted if they are delivered unpleasantly, or discomfittingly (is that a word?) than smoothly or inoffensively. Successful revolutionaries are rarely polite, and polite revolutionaries are rarely successful.

    Another point to consider, and why your frame of “marketing” may be quite off, is that ,with the exception of you yourself, I don’t think most people who write here really have it as a central goal to “have [their] ideas accepted.” Yes, some people will make thoughtful and useful contributions at times, and probably at a much higher rate than for most blogs in these latitudes (even I’ve done it, though mainly by accident). But I think most people’s main motivations, myself included, is to defend their egos and the honor of their tribe (similar to what WV said above). Battle is already pitched! before we even get here, the only question is whether to capitulate or stand up for what’s right. (Yes, it’s another war metaphor, which you don’t like to hear; but to change the pattern you have to describe it correctly first, I think.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      To put it simply, some truths, especially those at large deviance from what the listener already believes, are more likely to be understood and — eventually — accepted if they are delivered unpleasantly, or discomfittingly (is that a word?) than smoothly or inoffensively. Successful revolutionaries are rarely polite, and polite revolutionaries are rarely successful.

      But they offer some vast improvement over what the listener is currently experiencing, no? If you’re an asshole in the way you’re selling your product, it had better be a damned good product. “Hey, lardass, get over here and take this pill to lose that Jobba the Hut gut.” If the pill works, people will take the abuse, because the perceived benefit is such a radical improvement over the status quo.

      That’s not what we have here. We have a man of 55 angrily recounting his divorces and frustrating dating experiences to 20-something women. What is he trying to sell? Admonishment, cynicism, a sarcastic “enjoy the decline?” What does he have to offer that should cause any of us to sit up and take note? His motives are unclear, we have no idea what his product is. We suspect it’s the red pill, but he might as well be selling Viagra to chicks.

      But I think most people’s main motivations, myself included, is to defend their egos and the honor of their tribe (similar to what WV said above).

      I agree that it’s largely about ego, and from where I stand, that’s problematic. You describe the adversarial dynamic that results when we approach one another primarily invested in our own egos. Empathy becomes elusive, understanding impossible. I have no interest in moderating a battle between Xs and Ys, standing apart and yelling at one another.

  • Liz

    @Susan Walsh

    Few writers discussing the SMP seem to have the guts to say to low-SMV people who simply cannot be attracted to the people they can get that they will remain alone.

    I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1?

    Um, same reason most people aren’t attracted to a “1″?

    The less-attractive people out there possess the same aesthetic sense as the rest of us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liz

      Um, same reason most people aren’t attracted to a “1″?

      The less-attractive people out there possess the same aesthetic sense as the rest of us.

      Perhaps, but research shows that in speed dating events, for example, the less attractive people single out other less attractive people, but here’s the thing – they’re genuinely attracted to them and eager for a match! Specifically, less attractive people are much more likely to evaluate others based on disposition, sense of humor, intelligence, etc. More attractive people tend to go for superficial physical traits.

      Attraction IS a Choice

  • Jonathan

    I agree with BV.

  • J

    Methinks that since he couldn’t get sex from his girlfriend, he won’t have much luck with other women, so the only option left to him, is to have sex/relationships with men … and that was a horror to him.

    Wouldn’t most men is his position find a hooker who could give him a girlfriend experience before considering homosexuality? Aren’t there guys who have long running relationships with hookers? I thought some hookers have “regulars.”

    These friends mindfucked the wife to such an extent, that one evening when she returned home, she went to her two teenage sons and told them flat-out that they are rapists …

    Jeez, that’s insane. How drunk was she?

    He calmed her down, but other than that, his life with her is hell. As he told me his story, I thought to myself, that this guy was failing shit-test after shit-test with his wife.

    That’s not a shit test, it’s abuse.

    It might as well have been a beta sending a timid ‘I love you’ text message to a hot chick…But he was curious about the gay lifestyle.

    But why you and not the barmaid?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Wouldn’t most men is his position find a hooker who could give him a girlfriend experience before considering homosexuality? Aren’t there guys who have long running relationships with hookers? I thought some hookers have “regulars.”

    It’s because of pride. In some obscure way he still wanted to feel desired …

    Jeez, that’s insane. How drunk was she?

    She wasn’t drunk. This happened after a ‘heart-to-heart’ convo with one of her friends/patients. She’s a nurse.

    That’s not a shit test, it’s abuse.

    He told me that he used to wear his hair long, and one evening in a bar she told him that he should prove his love to her by cutting his hair. He did – with an electric clipper right there in the bar.

    That was a shit test methinks.

    As to failing enough shit tests so that the woman can become abusive/deranged, yes, I certainly believe that’s possible.

    But why you and not the barmaid?

    It seems Mireille was more right than I care to admit, in that I attract closeted gays. I sure as hell hope not.

    When it comes to closeted gays, I had a friend who was pretty damn smart with numbers. We lived in a block of flats. His sister moved in later, into a flat of her own.

    I remember one evening when I found myself in her flat just chatting. In fact I was sitting in her chair, and just watching her, as she did some kind of practical assignment for the university.

    She chatted to me, and even did me the peculiar honor of going to the kitchen, and bringing me food.

    I was touched. Deeply.

    I really enjoyed chatting to her.

    Anyway, my friend pitched up, and proceeded to give not-so-subtle hints that it’s time to go. And the rest of the evening I was in his flat, just listening to him.

    He told me more than once that it was strange for him to find someone it was so easy to talk to.

    Anyway, on another evening, I found myself in the sister’s flat again, just chatting to her again, and my friend pitched up yet again to sweep me back to his flat.

    I always wondered why he couldn’t see the dynamic between me and his sister, and make a graceful exit so that something might happen.

    Anyway, the sister ended up marrying an architect. And my numbers-friend went and got himself a high-flying job in the city.

    Last I heard, he got into a relationship with a graphic artist, plied her with the most outrageously expensive gifts, and one day found her in bed with another woman.

    He dumped her then and there.

    She tried to come back to him.

    Eventually he had to get a court order to make it stick.

    She was stalking him.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    The reason I told you about this numbers-friend is because my father met him, and told me that he’s gay.

  • Abbot

    Talk about sexual market value – well this is it.

    This would make a great post. Finally, the feminists can’t take it anymore and reveal the ONLY and TRUE reason for this pandemic they call “slut shaming.” The root of it all are men and their decision making process when wife selecting and that is something that feminists frustratingly cannot change.

    The feminists says -

    “I know plenty of progressive, liberal, adult men who openly say they’re looking for a “good girl”—who prioritize some paternalistic illusion of “self-respect” over personality and chemistry. And to those dudes, I say, HOW DO YOU NOT SEE HOW CREEPY THIS IS. Can you imagine if women went around saying they were just looking for a “good boy”

    http://jezebel.com/female-purity-is-bullshit-493278191

    Well, women can say exactly that if they choose to. Therefore, the above whine is nothing more than a projection of a woman’s view onto men.

    The reason for the above rant? An article that really needed to be written. Note all the spitting mad comments below it:

    http://fashxfash.com/why-good-girls-have-become-as-extinct-as-unicorns/

    This really raised the feminists cackles -

    “The truth of the matter is that you can’t change women that are already broken, so those are the ones that men use for exactly what we want: sex with no strings attached. Because it’s easy and it’s right in front of us. But at some point in time, through the course of our lives, we are going to grow out of chasing someone that has been with everyone. Sure being a bachelor is fun and all, the stories are great, bragging to our friends is epic, but we are eventually going to want more out of a female than just sex.”

    Note all the typical canned whine phrases in the comments – “double standard” “hypocrite” “patriarchy” and on and on.

  • Esau

    E at 626: Successful revolutionaries are rarely polite, and polite revolutionaries are rarely successful.

    Susan at 632: “But they offer some vast improvement over what the listener is currently experiencing, no? If you’re an asshole in the way you’re selling your product, it had better be a damned good product.”

    Sigh. I think your “marketing” frame is really handicapping you here. It’s not about selling a self-help product (God help us), it’s about having the truth be told, first and foremost, independent of whether that promises to help people or not. Yes, eventually revolutionaries will get to talking about “This is how things can be better”; but they start by grounding it in “This is how things really are now, and it’s very different from what you’re used to thinking.”

    The first step is to open people’s eyes to reality, and they will be convinced — or not — because what you show them is true and cannot be denied, not because it offers some promise that they can take or leave but have to be persuaded to take. And, as I said above, I think that convincing people of something that they’re not used to seeing, that would make them uncomfortable to acknowledge, is not most efficiently done in small, polite, manifestly un-threatening steps. A lot of times it’s the slap in the face, rhetorically speaking, that’s required to jog their complacency, so they have a chance of getting over the hill to a new valley.

    Yes, people will say that they don’t like confrontation and maybe go into a defensive crouch in the short term. But in the longer term, for what really settles in after a week or a month later, it’s the bold and prickly truth, IME, that has the greatest effect.

    S: That’s not what we have here. We have a

    I should make it clear that I’m not referring to any comment or sub-thread in particular. I’m replying in general to your “marketing” remark at 624, which was very general. It’s a big subject.

    “I agree that it’s largely about ego, and from where I stand, that’s problematic. “

    Your agreement is slightly distorted, because you’ve left out the word “defend” as I used it in conjunction with “ego”. That’s an important point, not to be missed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Yes, eventually revolutionaries will get to talking about “This is how things can be better”; but they start by grounding it in “This is how things really are now, and it’s very different from what you’re used to thinking.”

      I don’t think so. Revolutionaries arise as leaders among a group of people who know all too well how things are now, but feel hopeless and helpless to achieve change. The revolutionary says, “I have a way, and that means sticking together and acting as one force.”

      Your agreement is slightly distorted, because you’ve left out the word “defend” as I used it in conjunction with “ego”. That’s an important point, not to be missed.

      Defensiveness is always associated with ego, not necessarily a bad thing. It can be though – all too often I see people defending their dearly held but extremely biased beliefs. They become invested in what they have accepted as “truth,” and are loathe to accept any information that threatens their new world view. In this way, we may move very quickly from “truth,” all the while congratulating ourselves on our frank talk and truth seeking.

  • Liz

    @Susan

    The less-attractive people out there possess the same aesthetic sense as the rest of us.

    Perhaps, but research shows that in speed dating events, for example, the less attractive people single out other less attractive people.

    That would seem to be at odds with your earlier question, “I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1?” But I was merely suggesting that low-SMV people appreciate and desire beauty just like anyone else, even if our caste-system forbids such aspirations. However, you neatly summarized how people in this range adapt:

    Specifically, less attractive people are much more likely to evaluate others based on disposition, sense of humor, intelligence, etc.

    It’s possible the experience of being rejected by the beautiful people has conditioned-in some very negative feelings. They learn that physical attractiveness is associated with unsafe, rude treatment, and after a while gravitate toward whom they subconsciously view as the non-assholes.

    At any rate, I say more power to them – they are a step ahead. And let’s give women some credit here too, because they are FAR more likely to evaluate others based on these non-physical traits. I myself have rated guys low-to-average at first impression, but upped it considerably once I got to know them. I noticed a long time ago I tended to rate friends as attractive, and not because I was trying to make them feel better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liz

      That would seem to be at odds with your earlier question, “I don’t understand that, btw. Why isn’t a 1 attracted to a 1?”

      To clarify, I was responding to someone else’s claim. Personally, I believe this to be untrue. Most people do marry, and they do so assortatively. IOW, people do adapt, they figure it out, and in doing so they find loving relationships. Of course, there are some people who will be unable to attract a mate either due to unattractiveness or unrealistic standards.

  • J

    It’s because of pride. In some obscure way he still wanted to feel desired …

    Sad.

    She wasn’t drunk. This happened after a ‘heart-to-heart’ convo with one of her friends/patients. She’s a nurse.

    You said they’d all been out; I assumed that meant drinking. That’s really a crazy thing to say sober. As I said, it’s abuse.

    He told me that he used to wear his hair long, and one evening in a bar she told him that he should prove his love to her by cutting his hair.

    That’s weird. I can’t imagine asking someone to do something stupid to “prove their love.” I kinda figure that if DH goes to work and is good to me and the kids, that’s proof enough.

    When it comes to closeted gays, I had a friend who was pretty damn smart …..

    That’s a heck of a story.

  • J

    We have a man of 55 angrily recounting his divorces and frustrating dating experiences to 20-something women. What is he trying to sell?

    Misapplied vengeance.

  • Chant

    I saw that there was a discussion which regulars lurkers like.

    I go all in on Bastiat Blogger.
    He seems to be like most of my guy friends, guys i attract and guys im attracted to.

    So… he is handsome and single, amirite?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chant

      So… he is handsome and single, amirite?

      Very and very.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    You can see for yourself:

    http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.ca

    I would say he is handsome.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    I would also say he is very intelligent, pleasant and generous in his advice and compliments.

  • Chant

    @Susan and Hansolo

    I see that you both are right, he is very masculine and handsome, very rare – like a jewel.

    I wonder why more lurkers, such as myself, didnt express their interest in him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I wonder why more lurkers, such as myself, didnt express their interest in him.

      Probably because the likelihood of a date is quite low. :)

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    Probably too shy.

    Also, he is a charmingly persistent bachelor who fends off female attention at almost Hank Moody levels ;) and a lot of the women who comment here (don’t know about the lurkers) are looking for a more marriage-minded man.

    The opinion often stated here is that rogue players are less likely to reform and be faithful long term.

    Though I might agree with that sentiment as applied to the general population of players or occasional players, I intend to personally prove it “wrong” and find a life-time partner and have children, four to be exact.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Though I might agree with that sentiment as applied to the general population of players or occasional players, I intend to personally prove it “wrong” and find a life-time partner and have children, four to be exact.

      The fact that this is your desire increases your chance of success a thousandfold. The rogue player who wants this is the rarity.

  • Chant

    @HanSolo
    So you are a womenizer as well?

    I personally am not afraid of men who are successful with women. I am confidant in my ability to attract and keep a man’s interest. But i do understand why most women would be hesitant to get involved with men who are experienced with women.
    But i must confess that above all i enjoy the company of handsome masculine, intellectual and charismatic men. Maybe it is just my experience but i have nothing but pleasant experiences with such men, we keep eachother engaged.

    And as you probably have already picked up on – i really do love interacting with men – they are like marvels!

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    But who knows, maybe there is some special woman that can become the Karen to Bastiat’s Hank Moody. :)

    And Bastiat, I hope you don’t mind me having a little good-natured and mostly-flattering fun with the whole topic. (I’m certainly not implying you share the excessive drinking and underachievement of Hank.)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    J,

    That’s a heck of a story.

    Why ?

    ******************************************************************

    Chant,

    And as you probably have already picked up on – i really do love interacting with men – they are like marvels!

    a pity you never knew Munson :

    CAUTION: The writer of this comment has a penis and is straight. This of course means he is congenitally immature, has innate narcissism wafting over into full blown solipsism, a very narrow range of emotional responses including most especially in the area of empathy, and while intellectually capable of understanding these limitations has absolutely no appreciation of the emotional impact these may have on anyone within his orbit of relationships and thus is incapable of moderating these qualities to any appreciable degree to ameliorate their deleterious effects. On the plus side, he moves rather well on the dance floor for a 60 year old white man and wears deodorant.

    I do not think it is possible most straight men to be a friend to a straight woman. May work the other way around; women like men and are especially flattered when appreciated for qualities unrelated to sex. And thus the problem. Let’s step into the male mind for a second. Do you know what men do when they attend a conference with both sexes in attendance? 3 minutes in, we got around the room and imagine fucking every single (I mean each) woman in it. We start with the most attractive, get them out of the way. But we get to everybody. It’s a guy thing.

    You know what the say about boxing? What makes it interesting is the matchups of styles. Well, you gals have a style in your relaxed, congenial conversations that drives us nuts. I can’t put a word to it. I’ll use and example.

    Man gets fired from his job. Calls his friend. Over beers. they explore the situation. Kick the boss’ ass? Do you need money? Where can I find a job? Etc.

    Same situation, but women. What do they talk about? Maybe the above, for 5 minutes but then it will be how she FEELS. And feels. And feels. And feels. And feels. And…well you get it. Only you women are saying “So?”

    Now, as every woman knows, for a woman LISTENING to a man IS TALKING TO A MAN. It just happens. Once your in a relationship, it’s different. But a friendship isn’t a relationship. Remember Sam Kinison’s rant on that: “Let’s be friends. That means I get to buy you dinner, listen to you go on and on and on and on about dreary meaningless bullshit AND WE DO NOT FUCK!”

    I have an expression that I use to describe to facing up to unpleasant truths: looking at the rhinoceros’ s asshole. Are you ladies ready to do that? Are you sure? No, I mean really really sure. Don’t peak down there (and I don’t mean THERE!) until you’re sure you’re ready because it’s ugly, the ugly truth, “the dirty low down” (Boz’)

    MEN DO NOT LIKE WOMEN THAT MUCH! WE MOSTLY LIKE TO FUCK YOU! WE WILL DO BUSINESS WITH YOU, PRACTICE LAW WITH YOU, ETC. BUT EVEN WHEN WE DO THAT WE WILL BE THINKING ABOUT FUCKING YOU! YES YOU! RIPPING YOUR GODDAMN PANTIES OFF RIGHT IN THE OFFICE AND NAILING YOU RIGHT ON THE DESK WITH OUR VEINOUS CHOAD! NO EXCEPTIONS!NONE !NADA ZIP BIPCUS NIENTE NYET! WE LISTEN TO YOU BECAUSE YOU TRAINED US TO BY FUCKING US! AND EVERY OTHER LITTLE “SWEET” THING WE DO WE DO BECAUSE SOMEWHERE DOWN THE LINE THERE’S SOME PUSSY IN IT FOR US AND IF THERE’S NOT FUCK OFF! AND DON’T GO ASKING YOUR “SO” THIS BECAUSE IF HE’S GOT A SINGLE GRAM OF BRAINS IN HIS HEAD HE LIE TO YOU AND TELL YOU MUNSON IS FULL OF SHIT BECAUSE HE KNOWS IF HE ADMITS THIS HE WON’T BE GETTIN’ ANY FOR A WHILE SO HE’LL FIX YOU WITH THAT SINCERE MEANINGFUL LOOK (ALSO TAUGHT TO US BY YOU THRU FUCKING) AND SAY NO I’M NOT LIKE THAT! HE’S LYING! I KNOW IT, HE KNOWS IT, AND HE KNOWS THAT I KNOW THAT HE KNOWS IT! IF YOU HAVE A STRAIGHT MALE “FRIEND” TRUST ME HE’S WAITING FOR THE BENEFITS AND THAT MEANS YOUR PUSSY! NO MAN HAS EVER BEEN A WOMAN’S FRIEND! MUSLIMS HAVE A SAYING :WHENEVER A MAN AND A WOMAN ARE TOGETHER THERE IS SATAN! YEAH, AND HE’S TELLING THE GUY “MAKE HER THINK SHE’S YOUR FRIEND-SHE MIGHT BET THE URGE TO FUCK YOU!”

    Well, so much for the sociology. Plus really what would you talk about? The Steelers chances against Denver (that was a trick question; a guy would ask it the other way around; do you know why?) a while back someone here mentioned a woman-Malenka Bellini(?). I thought she was an actress. Turns out she makes shoes (BTW if a guy will let you talk about shoes to him girl you are in trouble; he has some REALLY nasty shit he wants to do to you).

    So girls are we clear on this? Let me make it even clearer to you. If you have a male friend (I don’t mean couples shit, although 2 couple friendships are notorious breeding for infidelity) and this involves any face-to-face time, he has mentally diagrammed your pudenda with his face attached to it. Word.

  • Chant

    @ Marellus

    Yes indeed shame i never met him. Does he not post here anymore?

    And such sentiments do not throw me off. When people post their true feelings or thoughts anonymously online, does not mean they act out them in real life.
    My experience is that such men can be very thoughtful in person, regardless what their unspoken intentions are.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    I think I am a womanizer at times, when single. I’m not a PUA and don’t go out a lot trying to get women. But I do meet women from time to time and things happen. I’m more of a meet via friends, the internet, airplanes or out and about; my bar game sucks to be honest. lol

    I used to be a voluntary virgin and then kind of went wild for about 5 years and am now a bit more calm. I have raised my standards a little bit about who I would have casual with but am mostly looking for an LTR that can lead to marriage/cohabitation and children.

    I’m glad you like to interact with men and find them to be marvels.

    If you don’t mind me asking, what have your experiences been like with these marvelous men? And what are your relationship goals?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    Sadly, he passed away.

    Cancer.

    RIP

    Be that as it may, you write differently from the women here – which means you talk differently to them in real life as well. I’ll hazard that you don’t have much trouble attracting men.

    How did this happen ?

    Did you read a book ? Many brothers perhaps ?

    I’m genuinely curious.

  • Chant

    @Hansolo
    It sounds like you have had quite a journey. It sounds to me like it has given you character and perspective on life. Lets hope the best is yet to come out of that life experience.

    I myself am quite a puzzle, if one doesnt mind me saying that.
    I am young and i am a voluntary virgin, much like you yourself once were.
    But my experiences with men have been great. I have loved two men – both so masculine and so unique, they have contributed more than i can ever express in words to my personal growth and how i relate to men. If i could sing, i would write serenades for them, so i guess it is a good thing that i have no musical talent to speak of.
    Neither of those loves worked out for us, but for very different reasons.
    And before, during and after my loves, i have been in the receiving end of countless affections from countless men. I must admit that most of my pursuers are very masculine and handsome and all have been utmost respectful and gentlemenly to me.
    But i have my own burdens to bare, which are one too many for my young age. And to top it off i am afraid of commitment. But i hope to overcome this fear and find partner for life and have a family with him.

  • Chant

    @Marellus
    I am very sorry to hear from his death.
    My condolences to this loved ones and to you.

    Unfortunately i dont have much time to read, i am following my academic pursuits at the time speaking. But i am a foreigner and English is a second (third?) language to me. Most of my speaking experience is from academic endeavors and the influence from my best friend, who is American and a long time womanizer.
    I have had much experience interacting with men, i truly and fully enjoy that. I have many interests in common with men and i have had many male friends as well (i have had many female friends too). No brothers though.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    If you’re still commenting on this blog a year from now, you’ll deserve a medal. It’s because the men will be kind to you, and the women will be nasty … never a good combination …

    I wish you the best of luck.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    You have a calm serene and relaxing way of writing. :D Thanks for the well wishes and I do think my experiences have given me perspective and I hope character, if only after my own fashion.

    I think I have had an interesting journey, in going from devout Mormon to occasional player yet still wanting the family life I always did.

    Are you a religious voluntary virgin? And of course, any answers you give are fully voluntary. :)

    Did those two men love you too?

    At the moment you have hope and fear. Why the fear? And will the hope prevail in the end? I hope so.

  • Chant

    @Marellus
    This is has mostly been my experience. Men respect me and are most sincere with me, but women cannot relate to me and feel threatened by me. But right now i have very wonderful huge circle of friends where is kind of behavior is minimal.
    But i cannot make any promises for how long i post here. I have much going on in my life right now.
    You are a very kind man. I hope life is treating you kindly as well?

    @Hansolo

    I would love to hear more about your experience, it sounds that you have alot of great perspective and hope for the future.
    I am a born again Christian. I live in a very secular country, where Christianity is very rare.

    The first man did not love me, he cared for me deeply. Oh, we were so young, only 14 at the time and he wanted to explore his sexuality with as many women as possible – he was very popular with the young (and not so young) ladies. We grew up together in a very though area, and i was a little daredevil, he looked out for me more than i know. It still hurts that he did not love me. But he was such a wonderful person and he did no fault by me, i cannot hold his lack of romantic feelings and young age against him.
    And the second man loved me. More than the Sun and the Stars. There is nothing in this world that i want more, than to be with him.

    There is fear in my words because i am afraid that i am beyond broken. But the time is late here and i am under much distress, i usually am fun and light to interact with – i promise.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    … You are a very kind man …

    Shhhhhhhhh … now drink your hot chocolate … eat your pizza … swear at your noisy neighbours … now do it louder in your other two languages … feeling better ? … No ? … all right … lie down … and start counting all the pretty little sheep jumping over a fence … how you’re feeling now ? … really ?

    You poor thing.

    Try thinking of this

    Now take a short nap … and then enjoy the rest of your evening.

    I must go now.

    See you around.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    Unrequited love is painful. Is the 2nd man still available? Since you say you want to be with him.

    In spite of or because of everything I’ve been through I’ve learned that I am most happy when I feel reciprocated love for people (whether that be romantic love for a woman or brotherly love for friends, family and humanity in general).

    Though no longer Mormon, I was once a missionary in Mexico and really loved getting to know a lot of people and trying to help them in the ways I believed in at the time.

    Why do you feel broken?

    Feel free to email me if you want to discuss things further or we can talk here too. One of my “weaknesses” is I love to talk with people about their relationships or lack thereof and how to improve them.

    There was one infrequent female commenter from here I have interacted with a lot via email and she has made a lot of progress so I’m happy for her.

    quantumcastle **at** yahoo **dot** com

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    By the way, I found quite endearing how you described yourself as a “little daredevil.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Chant is an enchantress. It’s fascinating watching you two men respond.

  • HanSolo

    And if anyone else, male or female, wants to email me, feel free to.

  • HanSolo

    Yes, she is, she has a very pleasant, serene and disarming tone to her words.

  • Chant

    @Marellus
    That picture made me laugh. For some reason i though of Oprah and her meme – http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/809/oprah-free-car.gif
    you get a flying dog, you get a flying dog, everybody gets a flying dog!

    @Hansolo
    I too have learned that like you i have much love to give and i care about people and for some reason people who interact with me get that i am being sincere with them.

    And yes the second man is available and he is devoted to me. But – and i am being deliberately very vague here and i dont expect anyone to understand – there are some things in life beyond our control. We cannot be together, we can only support each other and be grateful to have know each other.

    You know i just might shoot you an email sometime. I think i would like to get some as neutral as possible male perspective on my approach to dating. I am always looking ways to improve myself.

  • Chant

    @Susan
    With every man i interact, i see the best. I appreciate them for who they are, as i do with women.
    But my experience says that men usually want to live up to that expectation because they see that i believe in them, and that gives them more confidence in their own abilities – i love that, positive feedback works.

    And i truly mean that i enjoy interacting with men – they are so wonderful and mysterious, i have been blessed to be a woman.

  • mr. wavevector

    Chant is an enchantress. It’s fascinating watching you two men respond.

    Take notes, Susan. This is good ‘old school’ girl-game material.

    And by ‘old-school’, I mean something out of Don Quixote.

    Neither of those loves worked out for us, but for very different reasons.
    And before, during and after my loves, i have been in the receiving end of countless affections from countless men. I must admit that most of my pursuers are very masculine and handsome and all have been utmost respectful and gentlemenly to me.

    So very courtly. Either she’s an artful troll, or she comes from a much more romantic culture than ours.

  • HanSolo

    @Chant

    I think that most people will be happier if they find a positive way to grow and show love for other people. It gets us to stop thinking so much about ourselves and our problems and brings the joy of true communion with other souls, be that in a romantic way, or be it in a brotherly love kind of way. I suppose we can even feel it for animals at times too.

    Two simple experiences come to mind. One was in Mexico back when I was a Mormon and this really poor old couple had travelled a long ways to see the opening of a new temple and had used all their money just to buy the bus fare. They didn’t have any food. Of course they wouldn’t starve but they were hungry. I went and found a local corner store and bought some bread, ham and juice and so forth and brought it back and had a picnic with this “humble” couple and just basked in the happy light of our shared humanity and being able to lend a hand.

    Another was in Argentina. I was on a date with a girl at this historic location, at an outdoor patio restaurant, where you have live music at times and tango dancing at others. There was this singer with such a soulful face and just seemed full of character. I just felt such a connection with him. And then this hungry dog came up beside me and I furtively snuck him some steak from time to time, which he gratefully lapped up. Then I scratched his head and neck, giving him the affection that dogs need almost as much as food.

    I can understand how two people can care about each other but not be able to be together. There have been a couple of devoted Mormon girls that I have had that bond with after leaving the church but due to our very different outlooks on certain issues weren’t right for each other.

    Feel free to shoot me an email and get a positive and kind yet very blunt and, in my opinion, male perspective on things related to dating, fashion, men, etc.

  • Chant

    @mr. wavevector
    I understand why you think i might be a troll. And it is good by me. This is the internet and nothing i can say to you will change your mind. So i shall refrain from convincing you and let you make up your own mind.

    I come from a culture that is not romantic at all. But i am very romantic and passionate, for whatever reason men tend to treat me like i was mostly made of porcelain, a very special kind of porcelain. Which is so very sweet but can be somewhat frustrating after a while.

    @Hansolo
    Those are very heartwarming stories. I like to think that there is greatness in small acts of kindness.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I keep a special torch burning for Susan. It creates this bucolic, unattainable courtly love effect that simultaneously makes me a romantic and authorizes me to predate upon the SMP.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Chant,

    We live in such a distrustful and cynical culture that if someone says something beautiful and romantic, we wonder if they are having a joke at our expense.

    Which is so very sweet but can be somewhat frustrating after a while.

    How do you find it frustrating?

  • Chant

    @mr. wavevector
    You have a very interesting screen name. At first glance i thought ‘oh i am intrigued, there is a man who is into weaving, intriguing indeed’. But then i actually stopped to read the whole word. Are you into physics?

    But i must agree, we live in a very cynical times, where people seem to believe that by acting like they dont care, they show their strength. Oh what riches do they freely give up.

    And regarding that quote …Sometimes when i am on a date with an attractive man, i would like him to make a move. But most men i have interacted with have told me later that they thought i would reject their advances and that it was better to dream than to confront the reality.

  • Abbot

    Look, just in time! A pill that enables the promiscuous to endure non-promiscuity.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&amp;

    Now, aint that special?

    .

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Abbot,

    To give credit where it’s due: Your latest comments and links are fascinating.

    Thanks

  • Abbot

    Well, this year its been easy pickins. The feminists are doing nothing but putting out fires and running helter skelter on the defensive. That is especially so when the topic is sexually related. Basically, the masses have had it with their consistently inane bullshit.

  • Abbot

    Oh, well looky here. Already Marcotte is trying to play that NYT article her way. Its so good that she has been relegated to fringe media where she has zero impact on other peoples daughters.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/23/nytimes_on_lybrido_women_get_bored_with_monogamy_faster_than_men.html?wpisrc=flyouts

    .

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Chant,

    I think I can see why you inspire men to treat you like a “very special kind of porcelain”. You speak in a gentle, feminine manner that triggers the masculine protective instinct. And you are romantic, and deep inside many men are much more romantic than we give them credit for.

    It’s that sort of femininity that many men desire, that inspires them. These men want that and miss it when they don’t find it in the women around them. But you described the problem – they can be too much in awe of that romantic femininity to “make a move”.

    So, if I understand you correctly, you have the friendship of men, their affections, their solicitude, their regard – but not their desire. Not that they don’t desire you, but they are afraid to express it, because they see you as existing in the realm of romance and beauty, but not the sensual. Is that right?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Abbot,

    Good NYT article. It gives more support to the hypothesis that absolute monogamy isn’t the natural state of humankind.

  • HanSolo

    @mr. wv

    I think I can see why you inspire men to treat you like a “very special kind of porcelain”. You speak in a gentle, feminine manner that triggers the masculine protective instinct. And you are romantic, and deep inside many men are much more romantic than we give them credit for.

    It’s that sort of femininity that many men desire, that inspires them. These men want that and miss it when they don’t find it in the women around them.

    +1,000

    I think that if women can talk in soft feminine ways and show that they like men and avoid snark that men (within their league) will love it and as long as cads are filtered out these men will feel a desire to get closer to those women.

    Just speaking for myself, I often feel on guard around women so if one can make me feel at ease and that I’m not engages in a fight then I can really open up.

    I felt like Madalena often communicated in a way that induced this as well.

  • Anacaona

    *grabspopcorn*

  • Jonathan

    @Esau @Susan @BV

    No opinions re others’ agendas as I come here to learn. I read manosphere blogs too. Every blog has good and bad qualities. I try to take the good and ignore the bad. Much of what I learn feels like a kick in the gut as I come to understand better my mistakes and counterproductive behaviors. Many of the men who find these blogs probably feel as I do — IOW, the “bitterness” may be more a transient side-effect from learning hard but necessary truths than some kind of misery-loves-company thing. The manosphere blogs serve an important purpose by teaching men these truths when no one else will.

    Susan tries to teach some of the same hard lessons about human nature that the man blogs focus on, but in a format that works better for young women. I think she does this about as well as is possible. The problem, as BV understood, is that young women treat this blog mainly as a social venue and this inevitably conflicts with truth-finding. IMO if they want to learn better how to relate to men they are, like the men who read manosphere blogs, going to have to confront unpleasant truths about human nature and their own natures. That is going to hurt but the sooner they do it the better off they will be in the long run. But most of them will not do it. The same handful of tactful red-pill male commenters keeps making the same arguments that the women and their house white knights keep rejecting. Oh, well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonathan

      The problem, as BV understood, is that young women treat this blog mainly as a social venue and this inevitably conflicts with truth-finding.

      There is a very social element to many if not all of the manosphere blogs, that's not unique to HUS or to any blog with regulars. As far as I can tell, commenters on blogs participate for three reasons:

      1. They are seeking information.

      2. They want to teach, or impart information.

      3. They want the company or online friendship of like-minded people.

      All of these are good and worthy objectives, IMO. Of course, much can happen along the way to make people feel uncomfortable, defensive, or angry.

      1. They may not like the answers to the questions they've posed.

      2. They're seeking confirmation rather than information – and can become quite upset if they don't get it. This happens a lot at HUS. Some men come by expecting a strong Red Pill orientation, and when their expectations are not met they feel betrayed or duped in some way.

      3. They may be heavily invested in their teaching roles. There are men in the sphere who enjoy almost god-like status among their fellows. Some of those men have tried to impart their wisdom here, with mixed results. Generally, the female commentariat is very empathic, but in a very real sense we're humoring these commenters. IMO, there really is very little that a man on the wrong side of a family law debacle can teach a recent female college graduate. Female readers here are already well aware of the reasons men delay and forego marriage, as I cover those topics frequently in posts.

      4. Young women come here to learn and socialize with other young people. Not just other girls – they enjoy the guys' perspective too. But the age difference is quite unnatural in some ways. You'd never see a discussion group like this IRL, for example. For most of the female readers, the men are the same age as their fathers, or even their grandfathers. And of course, they wouldn't dream of discussing their love or sex lives with them.

      5. HUS is not group therapy. People who come here to work out emotional issues like anger, bitterness, grave disappointment, etc. repulse other readers. This is not related to gender. Most of us are quite uncomfortable with strong emotional declarations from people we don't know. I receive many emails from both men and women that I am in no way qualified to respond to, and I urge people to seek counseling. Some of that shows up in the threads as well.

      Finally, identifying "truth" is not a simple task. What you find truthful, in that in confirms your life experience, and explains your failures, may not resonate for someone else, not because they refuse to see the truth, but because it does not match their experience. We all suffer from massive bias, and having blogged for four years on red pill issues, and I can say with certainty that some of the concepts are valid as popularized. Others are valid in their original conception but become extremely distorted in the sphere. Still others are just flat out wrong. Yet the most erroneous assumptions are also the most dearly held, e.g. 20% of the guys get 80% of the women.

  • Chant

    @ mr. wavevector

    I agree with you that most men are much more romantic than one would think. And i would add that deep down many men have the fantasy of being the one to save the right girl from the world. From my interactions with men i have come to the conclusion that for men fixing things (and i include such things as cheering me up when i feel down and fixing whatever is broken) is a natural way to get closer to their romantic interest. They use their ability to provide and comfort in order to connect and show their interest. I think this is important aspect of menhood, and one that many women seem not to appreciate nor understand about men.

    …And i tell you the truth i do not know if men see me as you described or not, i just repeated to you those words that i have heard so many times. I think this has something to do with my appearance, and i have not revealed anything regarding that (except my left eye).
    But i want to make sure that i understood your question. You hint that men might not think of me as a sexual being?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    From what you write about your love life I can only say this :

    If by some miracle you find a guy alone in your room, provided he’s masculine gentleman-type you describe, he will not try to ravish you.

    That’s not gentlemanly.

    If he sees you in less clothes than you usually wear, he’ll try and hide his erection as well. I’ve only ever loved one woman, and I never ever fantasized sexually about her, because I loved her.

    Which means you’re in for a game of cat and mouse (you’re the cat) to get that good guy to loose his sensibilities, grab you by the arm, bend you over something … and …

    … well I’m pretty sure you know what happens next …

    (If you don’t know, then all I am willing to say, is that it makes a man very tired. )

    Your situation is peculiar then. It’s easy to get a man to like you, but a bit harder for you, to get them to act on their erections. Love is strange no ?

    (If you don’t know what an erection is, well, it’s a bit like your student debt – it’s something that grows bigger and makes you sigh and moan …)

    Good luck.

  • Chant

    Marellus,

    If i have no student debt, shall then i ever understand what an erection is?

  • Escoffier

    Abbot:

    best link you’ve ever posted.

  • mr. wavevector

    @Chant,

    And i would add that deep down many men have the fantasy of being the one to save the right girl from the world. From my interactions with men i have come to the conclusion that for men fixing things (and i include such things as cheering me up when i feel down and fixing whatever is broken) is a natural way to get closer to their romantic interest. They use their ability to provide and comfort in order to connect and show their interest.

    This is all very true. Men want to be useful to the woman they love. They want to be needed by her and to support her and care for her. Many women don’t understand this the way you do and erect barriers to keep men away because they want to be strong and independent.

    But i want to make sure that i understood your question. You hint that men might not think of me as a sexual being?

    I’m just picking at clues in this short exchange, but this is what I suspect. Men do tend towards the Madonna / whore dichotomy – separating the inspirational aspects of femininity from the sexual. If you are as you say, you are sympathetic and romantic and know how to inspire men to show you their best. But this might interfere with their seeing you as a sexual being, or they may see you as sexual but too good for them – beyond their reach.

    If this is accurate, I have another question – are you sensual? Not overtly sexual as in our pornographic culture, but are you attuned to the pleasures of the body? Do you take joy in physical pleasures, move with ease in your body, enjoy touching other people?

    For the sensual is the bridge between the romantic and the sexual. If you have men’s romantic interest but they don’t express sexual interest, then showing sensuality is a way to entice men to make a move without being overtly sexual. Touching a man with your hand while he talks. standing or sitting close when you’re together so you touch lightly, dancing closely together, talking about physically pleasurable things that are suggestive, like taking a bubble bath, spending time on the beach on a fine summer day, and slowly spreading sunblock lotion over each other’s bodies – these are ways of demonstrating sensuality.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Chant,

    I think this has something to do with my appearance, and i have not revealed anything regarding that

    Is there something remarkable about your appearance? Are you unusually beautiful or unusually plain?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Still others are just flat out wrong.

    *Cough* college-educated women *ahem* prioritize eduication and career *sniff* delay marriage *cough* single, childless, miserable *ahem*

    Sorry, had something in my throat…

    My skeptical radar tends to activate whenever discussions about “The Truth” are invoked.

  • Abbot

    “Good NYT article. It gives more support to the hypothesis that absolute monogamy isn’t the natural state of humankind.”

    Note how Marcotte rushed in to brand it as sexual equality. Good for her because now feminists can’t claim that a man is better off marrying a “woman of experience.” Yeah, she got her ya yas out but that is a super negative as her mind is permanently altered to not be satisfied with one penis and mono-attention. The article is proof positive that a man is far better off dedicating himself to an extremely minimally “experienced” woman and that is only one reason. There is a study that correlates divorce with prior penis count. Now we know why.

  • Chant

    mr. wavevector

    I am very sensual, very comfortable in my own body and sexual. And all that is reflected in the way i carry myself.

    Regarding my appearance, i do not know how i am described by others. And i am not objective in any sense of the word to give you an evaluation of my looks. All i can say is that i am very noticeable.

    I should add that i do not have difficulties attracting men but the men i would like to be romantically involved are few and far between.

    ….And now you know much about me, and only thing i know regarding you is that there is a wondrous curiosity about you and a strong need to make sense of the world.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Chant,

    I can see that you are very confident and comfortable in your femininity. That is a great asset, and you are right to be selective with your interest in men. I think all you need is patience and opportunity to find the right man.

    I am a middle aged man of ordinary appearance, married to a wonderful woman who complements and completes me, and the father of three thriving teenage sons. I have tried many things and have had some successes as a scientist, engineer, inventor, soldier, manager, philosopher, musician and artist. I am here because I am interested in gender, sex, and mating, as these are the most powerful forces in our social world.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    If i have no student debt, shall then i ever understand what an erection is?

    That’s gonna entail quite a bit of writing to respond to … do you know anything about the All Black rugby team ????

  • Chant

    mr. wavevector,

    I am usually good at judging characters, and i see that i have made the right call once again.
    It sounds like you have much to offer and that you only enrich your surroundings.
    I am very pleased to meet you.

    Marellus,

    No, i know nothing about the All Black rugby team, but for whatever reason i have a feeling that your next post is not for the young and the innocent to see.

  • J

    I wonder why more lurkers, such as myself, didnt express their interest in him.

    Because handsome and intelligent though he is, he doesn’t seem like the marrying type. Most of the unattached women here are looking for a mate.

  • J

    So very courtly. Either she’s an artful troll, or she comes from a much more romantic culture than ours.

    Actually, she reminds of this 19 year old girl who had an online relationship a few years ago at Roissy’s with a middle-aged IT guy named Polymath. Same manner, same appeal to what male commenters wanted and similar avatar pic that revealed only an eye. I forget the girl’s name, but I always thought she was either Polymath’s sock puppet or the product of the imagination of some middle-aged male troll.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Because handsome and intelligent though he is, he doesn’t seem like the marrying type. Most of the unattached women here are looking for a mate.

    Too much multi-vagina? :D

  • mr. wavevector

    @ J,

    I always thought she was either Polymath’s sock puppet or the product of the imagination of some middle-aged male troll.

    That’s what I meant by an ‘artful troll’ – someone creating a fictitious persona of considerable veracity and seductiveness. But real or fictional, it’s clear that this person writing as Chant has a keen perception of the male psyche. Other girls here could learn a thing or two from her.

  • Anacaona

    Because handsome and intelligent though he is, he doesn’t seem like the marrying type. Most of the unattached women here are looking for a mate.
    I always though that if Sassy and BB were anywhere near they would at least meet for coffee and see where it went. They seem to be each other type, from my POV, YMMV.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Abbot,

    Note how Marcotte rushed in to brand it as sexual equality.

    I won’t read anything by Marcotte. She is just too aggressively stupid – reading her is always a waste of time.

    The same goes for Schwyzer – although sometimes he’s good for a laugh.

  • Chant

    J,

    I have not had the pleasure to meet him yet, so i do not know what type he is or is not.

    I will say that people change, some more, some less. One might have said that i was not the marrying type, yet i have changed.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Chant,

    No, i know nothing about the All Black rugby team,

    I support the Springboks.

    but for whatever reason i have a feeling that your next post is not for the young and the innocent to see.

    Thus far, that little story has the following elements :

    Cherry Blossoms
    Wooden stairs
    Some sexy underwear
    A silken karate gi jacket
    A monkey bike
    A 36 Stahlwille combination spanner
    A box of roses
    A 36 Snap-on combination spanner
    Edelweiss

    And no, I’m not done yet.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    :twisted:

  • J

    @ADBG

    Too much multi-vagina?

    Well, Roissy and Rossh would say that the more a guy gets the more attractive he is, but IME I would say “Hell, yeah!” I’m sure there are some (stupid) women who do regard a high N as some sort of pre-qualification, but more realize that a high N man is too big a risk and too unlikely to settle down.

    @wave

    That’s what I meant by an ‘artful troll’ – someone creating a fictitious persona of considerable veracity and seductiveness.

    I know. I was adding data supporting your theory.

    But real or fictional, it’s clear that this person writing as Chant has a keen perception of the male psyche. Other girls here could learn a thing or two from her.

    If I were more creative or had a strong enough stomach to go copy some Harlequin romance dialogue, I could create a male heartthrob sock puppet. Were you single, would you prefer to emulate him or to encounter a woman who who was smart enough to live in the real world?

    And Wave, have I ever told how manly the combination of your loving protection for your wife and your incisive intellect is? I can tell from the tone of your posts that you are far more than the man of average attractiveness that you profess to be. I suspect that your modest manner (just barely) conceals the tiger that lies under your cool, intellectual surface, the Superman that lurks under your Clark Kent exterior. Your wife is a very lucky woman.

    *As Susan calls the carpet cleaners to remove the vomit her commenters have deposited on the Oriental rugs of her virtual living room, Wave acknowledges that Chant’s girl game doesn’t quite work for every woman.

    **No snark at you intended. I really do think you’re great, but what is appealing from Chant, internet woman of mystery, is ridiculous from me. Not every woman is able to play that game. I’m not so sure that the typical young woman reading here can or should try this at home.

  • J

    I always though that if Sassy and BB were anywhere near they would at least meet for coffee and see where it went. They seem to be each other type, from my POV, YMMV.

    Hey, the Sassmeister could probably get closer to getting a commitment out of BB than any else has ever!!!!

    She’s a challenge.

    Susan, make them exchange contact info!

  • J

    @Marellus

    Flowers AND wrenches…..HOT!

  • Chant

    Marellus,

    I see from your creativity and openness that you are sought after among the ladies.
    And i like that kind of boldness in a man, such a rare trait.

  • mr. wavevector

    Sorry, J! Chant is better at it than you are. Yours is way over the top. Hers is more believable.

    Not every woman is able to play that game. I’m not so sure that the typical young woman reading here can or should try this at home.

    Of course not. People have to find what works for them. My point is that Chant is expressing one type of seductiveness that a lot of men respond to. For those who want to practice “girl game”, that’s one approach to consider if it fits their temperament.

    Those with temperaments like yours, J, should stick with the no-nonsense tell-it-like-it-is approach. Because that’s attractive too :-)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    … there’s a frying pan from Harrods as well …

  • mr. wavevector

    I suspect that your modest manner (just barely) conceals the tiger that lies under your cool, intellectual surface

    You want to see my tiger, woman? Behold!

  • Anacaona

    Hey, the Sassmeister could probably get closer to getting a commitment out of BB than any else has ever!!!!

    She’s a challenge.

    I think the problem is that BB wants someone on his age rank. Sassy is a bit young but then he might do an exception for the right woman.

    Susan, make them exchange contact info!
    Heh I don’t endorse this advice they don’t have the personality to sustain a LDR or to move for the other one. I think is better to think there is an universe where they got together and are happily banging to heaven’s above.

  • J

    Sorry, J! Chant is better at it than you are. Yours is way over the top. Hers is more believable.

    Nah! You just know me too well to believe it from me.

    OTOH, did you laugh when you got to the Clark Kent part?

    Those with temperaments like yours, J, should stick with the no-nonsense tell-it-like-it-is approach. Because that’s attractive too.

    Well, it HAS served me well in the past….

    @Marellus

    there’s a frying pan from Harrods as well

    Do tell………..

  • J

    I’m LOLing, Wave.

    That was cute, but I’m more of a puppy woman myself.

  • mr. wavevector

    OTOH, did you laugh when you got to the Clark Kent part?

    I thought that was part of the hyperbole. A “Clark Kent exterior” would be a big improvement!

  • J

    LOL. It was.

    Clark IS ridiculously hot. He is just Superman with glasses after all.

    I sometimes hope that DH will drop 20 years and 30 pounds when he takes off his glasses, but it never happens. Not to me either for that. matter. ;-)

  • J

    I think the problem is that BB wants someone on his age rank. Sassy is a bit young but then he might do an exception for the right woman.

    I had forgotten that he had that preference. But I think you are right on both counts.

    Heh I don’t endorse this advice they don’t have the personality to sustain a LDR or to move for the other one.

    Probably.

    I think is better to think there is an universe where they got together and are happily banging to heaven’s above.

    LOL. Yeah.

  • Mireille

    J,

    You took the bait. I knew it wouldn’t be too long before comparisons are made. All the women around here spend their time dismantling fake manosphere bombs, of course they’re going to keep their “soft and seductive” words for something else. I’m also not surprised of the attraction of the seductive virgin, it definitely has its appeal. Chant sounds very grateful and appreciative, that’s definitely a super positive any way you turn it.

  • J

    You took the bait. I knew it wouldn’t be too long before comparisons are made.

    Nah, I just having a little fun. And I really was going for a laugh with the Clark Kent bit–while paying Wave a sincere compliment, of course.

    I’m also not surprised of the attraction of the seductive virgin,

    LOL. Me neither, but talk about your unicorns! IRL, a seductive virgin doesn’t stay a virgin for long. Don’t we all get about 15 minutes as a seductive virgin? Except when it’s tease, it’s an invitation few men can refuse. And then, no more virgin.

    I gotta call troll or sock puppet on this one.

  • J

    OK, guys. Gotta run and get a lawnmower part for DH. My big strong man is gonna mow my lawn this long, hot Memorial Day weekend. Then I’ll be “grateful and appreciative,” though not a virgin. ;-)

    Hope everyone has a great weekend. See you on Tuesday if I’m offline.

  • mr. wavevector

    J,

    I gotta call troll or sock puppet on this one.

    I don’t waste much time wondering over anonymous internet people’s true identities. If they’re pleasant to talk to, or fun to argue with, or whatever, it doesn’t matter who or what they are in real life. And Chant is pleasant to talk to.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Anacaona…”I think is better to think there is an universe where they got together and are happily banging to heaven’s above.”

    Reminds me of something written by the late and very great Neptunus Lex:

    “I’ve often wished that you could split at each important choice in life. Go both ways, each time a fork in the road came up. Compare notes at the end, those of us that made it to the clearing at the end of the path. Tell it all over a tumbler of smokey, single malt.”

  • Emily

    >> “If you’re still commenting on this blog a year from now, you’ll deserve a medal. It’s because the men will be kind to you, and the women will be nasty … never a good combination …”
    —-
    This offends me. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a HUS catfight. Sometimes there are disagreements with certain men, but the female regulars are all get on well with one another. (PJ doesn’t count.)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Emily,

    This offends me. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a HUS catfight. (Chant is being called a sock puppet) Sometimes there are disagreements with certain men, (… or they get type-cast like Abbot …) but the female regulars are all get on well with one another. (… keep this up, and you leave with no choice but to GBFM you … ( (PJ doesn’t count.)(… Indeed, that’s because she can do Algebra)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      or they get type-cast like Abbot

      You say that like it’s a bad thing. Abbot chooses to sing one note and one note only. That’s his chosen niche.

  • J

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a HUS catfight. (Chant is being called a sock puppet)

    Suspecting that someone isn’t for real isn’t quite the same thing as starting a catfight. Besides, I think the first person who first called Chant “an artful troll” was Wave.

  • Abbot

    Its been a tough year for Marcotte. She needed to masturbate and rub this article out -

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/05/22/thank-feminism-for-millennials-cooperative-liberal-spirit.html

    .

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    Suzan, J and whomever else is reading this :

    My friends, it has happened, I tell you it has finally happened … it is my turn to be sent to the dog house.

    As such, here are my last requests :

    1) Hope must do her i-ching thing, and kindly tell me where all the discount-bars are located for Oude Meester Brandy. It’s liquid fortification against the long walk you know.

    The last time “my friends” tried to help me with, I got three phone numbers, which turned out to be Pastor Demonologist Ndluvu of the Dodge The Devil And Go To Heaven Church; some woman that knows a thing about whips; Constable du Toit – who recommended some bar right next to their Police Station.

    He was kind enough to offer me a drink as well, but I declined coz I don’t like drinking with policemen.

    2) Mireille must lecture me on the evils of Oude Meester Brandy, so that I may inspired to do my civic duty, and drink the stuff off the entire South African Market … and yes Mireille, I know the other stuff is bad as well … so just name them for me, and I’ll start dealing with them tomorrow.

    3) Ana, Sassy, J and any other comers, must wear short mini skirts, and do a Can-Can-dance for me … with their legs pointing in the direction of the dog-house … I am afraid that with all these tears in my eyes, that I just cannot locate the bloody doghouse by myself … and ladies, I will check those legs to make sure they’re pointed in the right direction … sorry …

    4) A goodbye kiss from Suzan … and it’s gotta be a good kiss Suzan, or else I’m just gonna have to kiss YOU !!!

    And remember people, that no matter what you’re told … you can never put too much sugar in your coffee …

  • Lokland

    I’d like to nominate Maurellus for writing the best post ever written here.

  • Anacaona

    3) Ana, Sassy, J and any other comers, must wear short mini skirts, and do a Can-Can-dance for me … with their legs pointing in the direction of the dog-house …
    Blasphemy! Can Can most be done with the proper skirt. A round skirt with several layers: http://www.venacavadesign.co.uk/images/lobeimage425.html
    Its just not the same with mini-skirts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmbZnXSQ7k

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    <3 Abbott

    The Greatest Generation with the most narcissism!

    Maybe the reason we perform better on some metrics is because we are better at some things than other generations…which isn't the same as BEING better.

  • Liz

    @Chant, mr. wavevector, et al,

    You might be interested in this:

    http://www.godandgoddess.com/the-goddess-artemis.html

    Artemis was the archetypal goddess of purity.

  • Fish

    Love it! Although it took me like 3 days to get through all the comments and I’m not entirely sure what the tangent about divorce has to do with smv vs mmv.

    One thing I think is interesting, usually in women smv is higher than mmv while in men the reverse is true. As a man, I generally date women whose smv is relatively high (7′s, I ascribe the the bell curve distribution where there are a lot of 4-6, few 7s, almost no 10s), but for non relationship sex, they are less attractive so my mmv is closer to 7 but smv is closer to 5.

    I disagree with commoditizing vagina because the markets are different. Some women want to get married & have babies, some want neither. A woman who wants babies may feel more pressure after 30. Also, I think men’s ratings of women are much more in agreement than womens’ rankings of men. To some women I might be a 5, to others a 7. I think, like any market people are looking for value. If I think a woman is a 7 & she thinks I’m a 7, we have both gotten value even if others might rate us lower.

    I read a study that said when a company acquires another, 2 of the biggest mistakes they can make are mis-valuing the target company and mis-valuing themselves. That’s what were talking about here, right?

    I’m rambling but love the blog!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Fish

      I read a study that said when a company acquires another, 2 of the biggest mistakes they can make are mis-valuing the target company and mis-valuing themselves. That’s what were talking about here, right?

      I’m rambling but love the blog!

      Welcome, and yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about!

  • J

    Ana, Sassy, J and any other comers, must wear short mini skirts, and do a Can-Can-dance for me

    My next big, round number birthday is 60. I’m not sure you would want to see that………..

    OTOH, the legs ARE the last to go.

  • Man

    @Jonathan: #682. I come down very hard on feminism and feminists. But I don’t see any point in discussing topics like that in a site that is quite “man friendly” in many ways and also ending up offending some honest, feminine women along the process. We all have to watch out for paranoiac assumptions/exaggerations and there are many of these in the “sphere” as well.

    I also wonder why men often need “confirmation” or agreement from women about their thoughts and/or standards. If you have reason on your side, there is no need for confirmation or authorization to think what is right for you. Always keep reason on your side and watch out for feminist induced shame/guilt which might be at work. As a rule of thumb, women in general do not care much about men’s reasoning/logical arguments if they can have their passional servitude to comply with their whims and wishes. Think about the fascination of the sirens: they have their beauty, their angelic face, their sweet voice and infantile/fragile manner, and move fast in the ocean of emotions. That’s where lie their strength. Your is in reason.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Fish

    I’m not entirely sure what the tangent about divorce has to do with SMV vs. MMV.

    Zilch. It seems to come up no matter what the topic might be. Ditto on female deception and it’s consequences. Hypothetical, 99% of the time…

  • Abbot

    “It’s no exaggeration to say that feminists have been stuck in the same defensive crouch for decades. We’ve been so busy trying to hold on to the ground already won that imagining a feminist future has been a luxury we haven’t had the time, money or energy for.”
    –Jessica Valenti

    End of men…yeah, right.

  • Just Saying

    “a guy with an SMV of 9 will usually be willing to have sex with a girl whose SMV is 7 or higher”

    A woman who is a 9 can be more trouble and hassle then she is worth – there is the simple mathematics of how hard is she to land? If it’s going to take me most of the night, and I’m not going to be getting any, versus several hours of solid sack-time, which is worth more? The one that I’m going to banging for the next several hours – while 7 is kinda slumming it, if she is very young so her notch count is still low, I’ll do her. An 8 is a definite. So generally I’ll pass on the 9 as too much of a pain in my ass, if I can bang one out in the 8 several times tonight.

    Simple economics…