Matthew Hussey On Female Beauty

June 21, 2013

This is the second post in an occasional series about Matthew Hussey’s new book Get the Guy.

playful womanWe spend so much time talking about how visual men are – how a woman’s looks are the only thing that matters when it comes to attracting them. Certainly beautiful women turn men’s heads, and may create a spark of attraction. Yet the story doesn’t end there. Often the spark of attraction develops over time, even for men. 

The study Familiarity Does Indeed Promote Attraction in Live Interaction at Northwestern University found that familiarity does breed attraction:

The more participants interacted, the more attracted they were to each other…These conclusions follow from the many studies, both correlational and experimental, that have supported a link between familiarity – defined as the degree of exposure that one person has to another person – and attraction to other persons. 

…Familiarity, or repeated exposure, creates opportunities for interaction. All other things being equal, as mentioned above, positively toned interactions are more common than aversive interactions, suggesting that such opportunities are more likely than not to lead to rewarding social experiences and favorable impressions.

This means that by interacting with guys over time, you can generate attraction by revealing much more about yourself than your looks. Matthew Hussey agrees:

There’s a huge difference between objective beauty and perceived beauty.

Objective beauty is not constant and changes over time. Looks go in and out of fashion, decade by decade.

…Perceived beauty, which creates visual chemistry, occurs when one becomes attractive through behavior. How charismatic you are in conversation, how you carry yourself, your ability to exude both confidence and playful energy, and how comfortable you are in creating sexual tension – these behaviors are what creates the perception of beauty.  

None of these qualities have anything to do with how objectively beautiful you may or may not be. No one can influence the cultural standards of objective beauty, but we all have massive influence over our own perceived beauty.

…Possessing objective beauty is sometimes useful for gaining initial attention, but if the spark a man feels is to grow into a flame, much more has to be going on…You can’t build a successful long-term relationship on initial attention.

…What [a man] superficially thinks he wants and what actually creates real attraction are two entirely different things. Attraction is emotional, not logical. Attraction is created by hundreds of small behaviors and actions over time, behaviors that can be learned, practiced, and put in the service of creating chemistry with a guy you like.

Regular readers of HUS know that this is the source of my own success with men throughout my life. Many women have wondered how I got a certain guy or kept him, feeling that they were more deserving because they were more beautiful. What are those behaviors and actions that intrigue men and make them want to know more?

Hussey:

1. “It’s important to express sexuality in the early stages.”

A desirable woman doesn’t disguise her ability to be comfortable with her sexual self, and she is able to express it. This expression can be subtle. You express  your sexuality in the way you move, in your willingness to throw a seductive look out now and then, in being able to playfully touch a guy with confidence.

2. “It’s also about being comfortable with allowing an atmosphere of sexual tensions.”

3. “Playfulness is the essential ingredient in conveying your desirability.”

Confidence and certainty form the foundation of interactions, but a woman’s ability to drop her professional persona and have fun helps create a spark in the conversation.

Personally, I have always found that playful teasing is the most powerful ingredient to making oneself memorable – to get him thinking about you, to want to know more about you. Don’t keep him guessing about whether you’re interested – he’s likely to bail. But do keep him guessing exactly what you’re thinking. After 28 years of marriage, I still do this. My husband never knows when I’ll surprise him, tease him,  or say something unexpected. I’m just a little bit unpredictable, and that keeps the energy between us fresh.

Always hold 10% of what you are feeling and thinking in reserve.

It’s the pilot light for an undercurrent of sexual tension that can last forever. 

Hussey offers one gambit that I think is quite good:

A great approach is to use a line about how something drives you crazy and he must stop immediately or suffer the consequences. Works really well. You offer a compliment and then rescind it. By being sexy he is breaking the rules. So of course he will want to break the rules.

“Hey, I can’t resist guys with leather jackets. Take that off right now.”

Note: Do not try this at work.

As you can see, this requires confidence and a bit of boldness. Hussey explains that visual chemistry will quickly fade without sexual chemistry to support it:

A guy wants to feel as if he can imagine having wild sex with you, which is easy to do with a girl who laughs and teases him, who’s passionate and seems comfortable with her body, or who shows that she is willing to be naughty and take herself less seriously…If he doesn’t feel that pull of sexual energy from your teasing, flirting and challenging him, the initial visual chemistry he felt peters out. 

If you find someone attractive don’t throw in the towel before you give him a chance to see what you’ve got going on inside. If you practice treating men with less seriousness, and taking yourself less seriously as well, you can throw off rejection more easily, and as a result you’ll experience less of it. 

It works. Trust me on this.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    Excellent post. It’s always good to keep just a little bit of mystery and excitement, and I have learned firsthand in the beginning stages of a relationship, if you act too flaky and he has to keep guessing on whether or not you like him, he will just bail.

  • jack

    But then what do you do when the man wants to have quick sex with you? If a woman hit me with that line, I would be pushing for sex on the first date. What do you do then?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a woman hit me with that line, I would be pushing for sex on the first date. What do you do then?

      You push back.

  • JP

    “Certainly beautiful women turn men’s heads, and may create a spark of attraction. Yet the story doesn’t end there. Often the spark of attraction develops over time, even for men. ”

    This has caused me more trouble than any other single feature of human nature.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/?p=52 HanSolo

    I agree that being playful, fun, and teasing is important. Showing interest is too. So many guys do NOT experience much interest from women. Whether the women think they are showing it or not the men are not perceiving it and due to men’s tendency to over-estimate how much women likes them it suggest to me that women aren’t showing enough interest. As many guys have said here, many men today are walking around thinking that women are viewing them as creeps and rapists and have experienced enough rejection to be cautious.

    Pick well and then show interest. As long as he’s in your league this will be a welcome change to him and he will very likely appreciate it. Of course that doesn’t guarantee you’ll work out.

    Creating sexual tension without being a cock tease is great too (obviously needs to be with the right guy).

    Finally, if you’re only showing interest to players or cads then you need to reset your attraction triggers somewhat.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Finally, if you’re only showing interest to players or cads then you need to reset your attraction triggers somewhat.

      +1 !!!

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Might i suggest this is precisely why so many men end up in friendzones…

    “This means that by interacting with guys over time, you can generate attraction ”

    “which is easy to do with a girl who laughs and teases him, who’s passionate and seems comfortable with her body, or who shows that she is willing to be naughty and take herself less seriously”

    “Playfulness is the essential ingredient in conveying your desirability”

    Yes.. all this is on point when trying to snag the guy *you* are *attracted* to.

    But let your LJBF orbiters off the hook fast ;)

    Because a lot of “NiceGuys” practice this too:
    “If you find someone attractive don’t throw in the towel before you give him a chance to see what you’ve got going on inside.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      The woman initiating with a man she knows is also risking being friendzoned – I get a fair number of emails about that.

      It’s key to honestly assess whether or not the object of your desire is reciprocating and raising the stakes. And for heaven’s sake, if you’re raining down the IOIs and he or she is interested in someone else, FIDO, you’re done.

      There is a fair amount of plausible deniability here – a woman who is vivacious, teasing, etc. will get strong feedback from a guy who likes her, and more brotherly treatment from a guy who doesn’t. She can easily adapt based on his responsiveness without losing face.

  • JP

    “Might i suggest this is precisely why so many men end up in friendzones…

    “This means that by interacting with guys over time, you can generate attraction ”

    “which is easy to do with a girl who laughs and teases him, who’s passionate and seems comfortable with her body, or who shows that she is willing to be naughty and take herself less seriously””

    I think that the problem is friendly social interaction, period.

    So, if you get men and women together, you get this situation.

    Which explains a lot of modern workplace relationship issues.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    For the record, i’m not disagreeing with you Susan… it’s just that my current girlfriend is currently exasperated at the multitude of male friends she’s already lost and within the short 2 month span i’ve been seeing her, i’ve born withness to her having to deal with 2 co workers open up to her about having romantic feelings for her that she was oblivious to, UNTIL she recounted her dealings with them to me. I quickly pointed out how/why these men where reacting to her behaviors and she finally said

    “i give up. i’m either going to pretend i’m a lesbian, or walk, talk and behave like a monotone robot.”

    She is a very cute little girl with a very light Minnie Mouse voice. I’m not surprised men fall for her simply through daily interactions she would never have even considered. But i do get that it can cut both ways, tho with men – and sex always being on the brain.. it’s simply a numbers game. It will always happen most often as men falling for women during these interactions.

    Men chase / women choose.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Anyways.. yes, there is a valid point being made here. It’s sometimes said within the sphere (almost as much as Looks trump all other factors) that when looking for an LTR, a man will consider a 6-7 with a sweet disposition and feminine frame over a bitchy nagging HB9 anyday.

    Long and repeated interactions with women let guys see the human side of women, and the value side.. as in what they are like during the other moments of life that take place when we wouldn’t be having that sex thing we often think about. The easier it is to be around someone without conflict, the ‘prettier’ they get because you begin to enjoy their company.

    Soon you start picking up on little traits you would normally miss while looking for a one-and-done.. the way her smile reaches her eyes, how she bashfully turns red and looks down when you tease her, or simply that you realize her voice is calm and soothing instead of aggravating.

    All these little revelations open up during discovery and lay the foundation for comfort and long term stability. The longer between conflicts, the less the boat will rock, the happier everyone will be. The more fond memories will be created. Over the course of many interactions, especially pleasant ones, we create neural connections where we expect people, expect reactions, expect faces to light up with joy. And when we are absent, we MISS them.

    As Han said, women’s greatest requirement to allow for this is to pick well, and filter out the badboys instead of succumbing to them. In a feminist age that says give up the grandest prize a man desires now, and discover compatibility later.. feminists disarmed women from the best weapon they had in mate selection…

    Time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      feminists disarmed women from the best weapon they had in mate selection…

      Time.

      And I’m trying to get women to reclaim it, under the assumption that the men worth having will see them as worth waiting for.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    M3, I used hate the men chase/women choose idea because a lot of men will wait forever to take action on a woman they like, and sometimes they never will. I have heard many times guys tell me (after they are now married of course) “I always had a crush on you,” and I’m like, “Ugh why the eff didn’t you say/do something?!” I’m impatient to wait x-years for him to tell me a little late that he likes me, so when I have my eye on a guy, I just go for it. Sometimes it works well for me and sometimes it doesn’t. What I have found alarmingly is that when I have expressed interest in a guy first, he will adopt a lazy mentality and act like, “Oh I know she already likes me, I don’t have to show my interest in her or contribute. I get to sit back and enjoy the ride,” which I hate as well. So now I think, maybe women shouldn’t chase men, but what should she do if she likes a guy? Get him to chase her?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Ash

    “So now I think, maybe women shouldn’t chase men, but what should she do if she likes a guy?”

    Women have lost the subtle art of IOI through overuse of plausible deniability. Most guys who’ve been in a friend zone honestly thought they saw signs, that suddenly evaporate under the “i’m sorry, i just don’t see you that way” umbrella.

    i also see the pattern emerging. guy is too beta, won’t make move on an alpha woman (will wait forever to take action), alpha woman moves on, finds out years later beta had crush. she didn’t chase because he was beta.

    alpha woman chases an alpha male, alpha knows he’s an alpha, assumes fast moving female is loose, knows he has the power, doesn’t invest, alpha female gets frustrated.

    beta female will not chase alpha males, but will be targeted by alpha males.
    alpha females will also be targeted by alpha males, mostly for sport.

    you seem to be an alpha female, i suggest you don the chameleon cloak and do not chase, ever. you have enough objective beauty to be chased, now you simply have to filter. you have no fear of beta’s approaching you.. they will simply be alpha cads, or alpha with greater beta traits. one will seek you out as a plaything, one will seek you out for a relationship.

    your job at that point is to filter, and to display the traits that show you are worthy of being in a relationship that goes beyond simply your looks or your vagina. Cads are adept at smiling and telling you exactly what you want to hear.

    so yes. get him to chase her. what’s the best IOI a girl can give a guy?

    “I like you.” and let the chase begin.

    Final note. You said if you had your eye on a guy and you went for it, later they would have lazy mentality “oh i already know she likes me”. i am willing to bet all the money i have in my bank account that you got that reaction from going after alpha’s who have plenty of options so they’re not heavy on the investment factor of any one particular plate their spinning. if you had your eye on a beta who wasn’t swimming in options.. i guarantee he wouldn’t have that mentality.

  • Emily

    Great post Susan!

    I especially agree with the part about not taking yourself too seriously. It’s another reason why girls are often more attractive once they’re in a LTR. They have nothing to lose (or gain), so they’re often more willing to just goof around and have fun.

  • Fish

    “Don’t keep him guessing about whether you’re interested – he’s likely to bail”
    This is the best gem from this article. Girls have a window to give IOI and catch a guy’s attention. If there is not initially a strong IOI, guys will assume either A) not interested at all, or B) friendzoned. If you are interested in a guy AT ALL, DO NOT FRIENDZONE.

    “Hey, I can’t resist guys with leather jackets. Take that off right now.”
    That is golden and works for both genders. I once told a girl “If you keep getting cuter, I am not going to be able to handle it, we’re going to have issues.” Concrete, irrefutable IOI’s are best.

    “The woman initiating with a man she knows is also risking being friendzoned – I get a fair number of emails about that. ”
    A woman only gets friendzoned for 2 reasons: A) not attractive enough (i.e. never had a chance) or puts off a vibe of clingy/uptight. Strong IOI’s up front my fix that, but generally if a woman gets friendzoned, she’s fighting out of her weightclass so to speak.

    @Ashley
    I’d offer two bits of advice. A) you probably need to put out stronger IOI’s towards guys. If a guy (expecially a guy who is less comfortable flirting) is unsure of the nature of your interest, he will be less likely to pursue. B) if you tell a guy “I like you” and he’s flaky, it is probably because, as M3 said, he is someone with options who may not prioritize pursuing you (i.e. your RMV is lower than theirs). Guys will usually devote the most time towards the resource that they value the most. If it is sex, they will go after easy, slutty girls. If it is a relationship, they will prioritize the girl who has IOI’d with the highest RMV.

  • Fish

    @Susan
    “And I’m trying to get women to reclaim it, under the assumption that the men worth having will see them as worth waiting for.”

    I hope that the women read take the whole breadth of advice and not component parts. Good girl game can raise RMV 1-2 points, as can fitness. RMV 5 becomes RMV 8, she probably bought herself time to get to know the guy in order to properly filter. Nobody successful is in the habit of disregarding value, so I think if women focus on creating value first, it will buy them the opportunity A) to have a larger interested pool of men to choose from and B) to filter from that pool those worth a further investment of time and effort.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nobody successful is in the habit of disregarding value, so I think if women focus on creating value first, it will buy them the opportunity A) to have a larger interested pool of men to choose from and B) to filter from that pool those worth a further investment of time and effort.

      +1

  • JP

    That old bald cheater, Time.

    – Ben Johnson (c. 1610)

  • Anacaona

    That old bald cheater, Time.
    – Ben Johnson (c. 1610)

    “Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids.”
    – Old Arab proverb.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Depending on where the interactions are taking place–work, ex–the woman has time to see more of the guy as he deals with the real world. She can find out more to decide if she even wants to start throwing the IOI thingies.
    Trying to suss out a guy who’s in approach mode is looking at a limited, and probably at least partly artificial aspect of his personality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She can find out more to decide if she even wants to start throwing the IOI thingies.
      Trying to suss out a guy who’s in approach mode is looking at a limited, and probably at least partly artificial aspect of his personality.

      True. Also, since women have a wide range of attraction triggers, but focus a lot on looks at first meeting, repeated interactions give the guy a real chance to show who he is. This probably benefits men even more than women.

  • purplesneakers

    I often thought about sex from a young age (went through puberty young), but coming from a really conservative family, I often felt ashamed about my body and my sexuality. I’m not a prude, but I just don’t feel comfortable presenting myself in a sexual way with men I’m not already dating, although I would like to feel comfortable enough with myself to be flirtatious like that. I guess that’s something I have to work on..

  • Fish

    @Sneakers
    Its sounds as though you are fit and have a good idea of what you want. You don’t really need to be sexual to be flirty (although it can help). Just joking about something you think is sexy is a good IOI. Remeber, you’re indicating interest not desire for immediate sex. Flirty =/= slutty. I think the problem that a lot of guys have is they thing restricted = uptight & bad in bed. I myself am guilty of this. If you flirt in a way that shows a glimpse of sexuality, you’re not only building value, you’re giving them a reason to wait.
    It seems like common sense, but in order for a guy to wait to have sex, he has to see something worth waiting for. If you toss out guys out of your acceptable RMV (they’ll wait because you are super high value for them), you get quality guys who are intrigued.
    I think you would see results with this. Black girl booty helps ;-)

  • cheching

    But how do you this without solely being perceived as a sexual object? When I adopt this attitude, it feels like the guy ONLY wants sex. Whereas, oddly enough, it’s the guys that I put in the friendzone that want a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cheching

      When I adopt this attitude, it feels like the guy ONLY wants sex. Whereas, oddly enough, it’s the guys that I put in the friendzone that want a relationship.

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment.

      You have to strike a balance where you communicate that you are a sensual person, but that you have high standards and don’t do casual. If a guy is acting like he only wants sex, that’s easy. Reject him, withdraw all attention. If a guy likes you only because you don’t like him, reject him. His interest will fade the minute you come around.

      Once you clear out all that “noise” you’ll be better able to see the guy with real interest who wants a quality girl.

      BTW, some men will call you a tease if you flirt and then deny them sex. That’s ridiculous – flirting is simply a way of saying, “I like what I see, and I’d like to know more.” It’s not a promise of anything, not even a phone number. Flirting is a sort of audition for both of you, not a promise. Either party can lose interest at any point.

      Young women today worry that flirting will make them seem DTF, but that’s the guy’s problem. It helps if you keep it pretty mild though – perhaps lightly touch his forearm, not his chest and definitely not his butt! IOW, keep it classy, don’t be physically aggressive.

  • Fish

    @Checking
    In a way, its good for guys to want sex, it means they are interested in you. Guys who are friendzoned (presumably) you don’t want to have sex with, otherwise you would have a relationship. If you flirt successfully and create value guys will be interested. What I believe is the ideal for a LTR seeking woman is to create enough value that a quality guy will be ok delaying sex until you can decide if he is “relationship material”. Once you’ve made that decision, you have no reason not to sleep with him and he still (hopefully0 wants to sleep with you.

    You can create value in a number of ways. Some women are just naturally pretty and fun. Susan has written a number of posts about “girl game”, which is just being more desirable. The problem with the current SMP is that you may have to make sacrifices to get a relationship. If you find that guys you are attracted to just want to sleep with you and not have a relationship, you may be mis-valuing yourself. The solution is to either add value or give one of your friendzone guys a chance. For a woman, your sexual value is almost always higher than relationship value. This is why “slutty” girls seem to get ahead because guys are pickier for a relationship than they are for easy sex.

    It’s not odd at all that guys in your “friendzone” want a relationship, their RMV is lower than what you’re looking for. I have female friends in my friendzone for the same reason.

  • szopen

    The not-so-important and quite obvious corollary (and yet often forgotten) is that tease and create sexual tension only with the guy you want to pursue you, not with every one around THE guy.

  • BuenaVista

    Once upon a time, a girl who had an interest in a relationship did innocent things that showed an interest in a relationship — such as, I’d go to pick up a girl, and she would hand me a plate of cookies that she had baked, all nicely wrapped up. (Other examples: a book, a new knife, a flask, a fifth of my favorite rye, a couple cigars, a selfie of the two of us in the last hotel’s mirror: little indicators of being valued for being a MAN, not a complement or date-funding-mechanism.) I can’t imagine a woman baking cookies today for someone she friendzoned. Any man who isn’t turned on by someone spending an hour baking for him is a moron.

    Ironically, it’s usually I who bakes or cooks dinner or buys little gifts for a woman I court. (The sexy part I just take for granted, it’s just always there.) They say a brief thanks, as a rule, forget about it, and don’t bother with a thank-you note. My attraction then plummets. I have been to that (entitlement) fire. Next. Most professional, educated women (my cohort) live on one-way streets without knowing it.

    Another way to show clearly a direct interest in a relationship is to take more responsibility for it: grab the check for once, and say, “I love it when you take care of me, but I am going to take care of you too.” Or, plan the date and execute it: it will either be appreciated, or the guy will flake because he isn’t interested in a caring relationship, and feels crowded, which is good information to have. (Would have saved Brooklyn girl from hipster Bike Dude.)

    Our society is so hypersexualized that women seem to define the sexual dance as the primary, and perhaps exclusive, vocabulary of attraction and relationship building. (I am not saying that SW says above that sexual banter is the only vocabulary of attrraction and relationship building.) I am somewhat cynical about this because it suggests several problems: it’s the woman saying several things, very, very clearly to me:

    a. I have something you want.

    b. I might let you have some of it (chase me, chase me, chase me, spend time and money ON ME).

    c. I am therefore on a sexual pedestal: perform for me and I might let you have some (depends how well you chase and spend).

    d. I am probably pretty lazy (if not inept) in bed, because I am acting like “letting you have some” is a big deal (it’s not because I (the man) have options, and besides I’m usually let down by female sexual skills and attitudes).

    So, while I agree with M3 on ‘men chase, women choose’, I would say that most women might make use of a few pages of Nancy Drew at the same time they’re sexualizing the flirtation in the manner SW suggests. Doing so is so unusual that it can make a man’s head spin. Combine little acts of kindness and consideration — again, which are almost completely absent in hookup culture, and of course are reviled in feminist environments — with sexual aptitude and interest, and a relationship-oriented man will flat lose his mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Buena Vista

      I would say that most women might make use of a few pages of Nancy Drew at the same time they’re sexualizing the flirtation in the manner SW suggests. Doing so is so unusual that it can make a man’s head spin. Combine little acts of kindness and consideration — again, which are almost completely absent in hookup culture, and of course are reviled in feminist environments — with sexual aptitude and interest, and a relationship-oriented man will flat lose his mind.

      LOVE the Nancy Drew reference, that advice is pretty near perfect.

      I tried to get a lot of the same concepts here:

      10 Ways to Make a Man Fall in Love

      In This Battle of the Sexes, Women Need to Blink First

  • BuenaVista

    Cheching, if your *only* or *primary* attitude and MO with a man of relationship appeal to you is sexualized teasing, the man would be an idiot to assume you want anything other than sex. You are simply being rewarded with what you’re asking for. Sorry.

    Implied in SW’s commentary is the importance of ambiguity. I would mix it up so that some sexualized banter or teasing or touching is seasoning a mix of other behaviors. For example, do you know very much about his family? What was his senior thesis about? Could you read it? If a man wigs out because you flirt with him *and* you want to know where his parents were born, flush him, next!, oh well. He has different objectives than you, and the task is to get rid of people with incompatible objectives as quickly as possible.

    Don’t friendzone guys, especially if you like them. It’s selfish and they need to learn to stop supplicating their way to intimacy. Occasionally, some LJBF-guy may actually stop acting like a pathetic little puppy, if you dump him and tell him you don’t think men and women can be ‘friends’, and your attraction for him might go up. Probably not, since all of his teachers and his mommie told him to supplicate his way to a nice girl’s heart, but you never know.

  • Emily

    There are also ways of “flirting” that aren’t really sexual at all. Just being really giddy/happy/playful can be really effective.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There are also ways of “flirting” that aren’t really sexual at all. Just being really giddy/happy/playful can be really effective.

      Agreed, that behavior is attractive, which makes you more attractive, which makes guys want to know more. Obviously, attraction is sexual, but it is not necessary to advertise sex if one has a lust for life in general, and the confidence to share that with others.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Funny story.
    Last night was watching “The Help.”
    Basically, this guy working on an oil rig goes out on a date with Emma Stone, and Emma Stone acts like a complete bitch. So the guy responds with unassailable frame.

    Loved it.

    But of course the movie ruined it 15 minutes later when the guy comes back to “apologized” and ask her out on a date because he liked her “feistiness” and “saying what’s on her mind.”

    I stopped the movie, told the GF this is why I do not like chick flicks: flirting and teasing is not rampant sarcasm and insults, that Emma Stone was an ugly bitch in that one scene, and it became impossible to respect her as a person

    Also I think these stupid Oprah Book Club movies are ridiculous because of the mass imprisonment we put young black males through, which no other nation apparently feels the need to, but at least we let them use toilets, everything is better!

    Bleh

    Anyways, you hit on something here:

    True. Also, since women have a wide range of attraction triggers, but focus a lot on looks at first meeting, repeated interactions give the guy a real chance to show who he is. This probably benefits men even more than women.

    Yep! As long as he doesn’t become a supplicating loser that’s going to “show” her how attractive he really is!
    Basically game for guys is too hard to learn. What we focus on is improving some easy attraction triggers to improve your chances of any individual girl liking you from .1% to 3%, removing your inability to talk to more girls so that 3% becomes a decent sized number, and then removing your anti-game so you don’t fuck it up.
    This helps because it’s like an iterative game where you get to roll the dice and each time is a 3% chance of sparking something ;)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also M3,

    LOVE the way you describe the girlfriend! Minnie Mouse voice,LOL! Not a surprise guys like her at all.

  • Gin Martini

    Fish, very good explanation to chech. Being flirty and sensual is entirely independent of showing lots of skin and being DTF.

    I would caution against too much teasing. It depends on context, but the jacket line is cute, but too much of it would make me think she’s trying too hard. If a woman is teasing more than she is being teased, then, she’s setting the frame too much. A man then either will decide its not worth it, or try to get the frame back.

    A dynamic where the man serves a volley, and it’s returned, and you go, back at forth is what you’re looking for. Some women, when they finally get it, over-apply it and start “serving” too much. Like a dork applying outright negs, it’s a failure to understand context and calibration.

    What I really liked about this was the admission that for men, yes, attraction can grow when we get to know you. I’ve stated many times that your personality is a force multiplier that amplifies your looks. Now, it’s true no amount of personality will change a “hell No” to “Yes”, but it can change a “Meh” to a “Hell Yes”.

    Of course, since courtship is dead, it becomes trickier to allow this to happen. Gone are the days of face-to-face time to let it build, instead, this building has to happen as a part of regular life with multiple people. Then when you cross a threshold, take it to the next level.

  • Fish

    @BV
    “a. I have something you want.

    b. I might let you have some of it (chase me, chase me, chase me, spend time and money ON ME).

    c. I am therefore on a sexual pedestal: perform for me and I might let you have some (depends how well you chase and spend).

    d. I am probably pretty lazy (if not inept) in bed, because I am acting like “letting you have some” is a big deal (it’s not because I (the man) have options, and besides I’m usually let down by female sexual skills and attitudes).”

    This is brilliant and generally how I look at restricted women. Its a very high stakes game when you play it that way because if a guy waits too long and is letdown, you probably lost him. It might take a while, but he’ll see the effort put in and say “I waited for this?” Restricted guys may not, its nearly impossible for me to look at it from that mindset.

    Anymore, I’ve tried to remove myself from the equation, because i know I’m not who these people are looking for, so explaining the HUS method, is probably a better bet . . .

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Anacaona…

    “Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids.”
    – Old Arab proverb.

    Oh, Yeah?
    -Percy Bysshe Shelley

  • BuenaVista

    Fish, I particularly dislike the “I’m a princess you should chase because, you know, I have a magical vagina” scenario. And truly, it usually leads to very dull sex — the kind where the woman goes “Now, buster, your job is to thrill me to pieces so get busy” and she assumes that providing “access” to her magical vagina is all the sexual satisfaction a man could desire. Dreary. There was a commenter yesterday who sounded like one of these, though she was already too bruised by rejection to reply to. Her point was, “I passively let him sleep with me; why isn’t that enough?” There is something truly bizarre in the female psyche such that they don’t test ideas by reversing roles. Can you imagine a man taking the point of view that “I passively let her sleep with me, why isn’t that enough?”

    I don’t mind the waiting (though the concept of ‘waiting’ seems to be pretty debauched; waiting seems to be do you want it Blue Label or overnight); I mind the solipsism, cheerful manipulation, entitlement and lack of respect. In regard to these women, who are extremely common in my cohort, and practically define a mainstream match.com woman, the PUAs are right.

    I disagree about attraction growing for a man. Just my experience. I used to love reunions with my ex-, so that I could see her afresh across the airline terminal. We nearly got arrested in the Volvo at O’Hare once, after one such reunion.

  • BroHamlet

    @BV

    …little indicators of being valued for being a MAN…

    Truth.

    @Fish & BV

    This is brilliant and generally how I look at restricted women. Its a very high stakes game when you play it that way because if a guy waits too long and is letdown, you probably lost him. It might take a while, but he’ll see the effort put in and say “I waited for this?” Restricted guys may not, its nearly impossible for me to look at it from that mindset.

    I’ll cosign. Things should probably not enter the realm of “carrot-dangling” if a girl expects things to work out in the end, no matter what kind of guy she’s seeking, lol. If that is how a woman is coming off, she’s doing it wrong and it too far on one side of the spectrum. In my experience, a guy of value, whether restricted or not, will not chase to the ends of the earth these days- if she can master that mix of both sexual and sincere behaviors, which I think Susan got at (and BV nailed), she will definitely signal “keeper”.

  • Fish

    @BV
    “she assumes that providing “access” to her magical vagina is all the sexual satisfaction a man could desire.”

    Sadly, I have found this mindset to be more likely to be the case the more attractive a girl is. I haven’t ever had sex with a 10, but this seems to be common among 8+. The exception seems to be “late bloomers”, girls who weren’t always hot, or girls who are insecure, they seem to work a lot harder in the bedroom.

    My most recent ex was a tiger in the bedroom, and she made me pursue her more than I ordinarily would have. However, once the chips were down, I felt like we were performing at the same level. I don’t like feeling like she’s getting what she wants and I’m getting bored. This could also be a function of high N and me being harder to please.

    Maybe its the entitlement we have an issue with? Maybe low N guys are happy just to have a wet hole with a hot girl attached to it? It is really hard for me to remove the Fish filter and try to look at this from other points of view.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Let me show you the initial conversations about sex were with my husband. I don’t think I’m doing the “I’m a princess you should chase because, you know, I have a magical vagina” here. “Restricted” means wanting an emotional connection before the physical stuff happens.

    Me: yeah, so my taste in women is totally aesthetic… :P
    Me: I don’t look at them and go omg I’d like to tap that
    Me: but I’m sure guys do /shrug

    Him: guilty >.> but the truth of the matter is…
    Him: even if I did have the opportunity to “tap” some of those women with no strings attached…
    Him: the thing is… flesh is all good and nice but
    Him: that’s not really what sex is about imo
    Him: sex is an exchange of energy, made more pure and more beautiful the more similarly the partakers vibrate

    Me: to me, I just always liked looking at pretty girls… it’s never really been an envy thing

    Him: and/or the more pure their love/devotion/care for the other

    Me: yeah.. that’s the right way to look at it
    Me: I look at it as something of a service I do… >.>

    Him: orly
    Him: explain…

    Me: it’s the empathy thing
    Me: I like to give pleasure
    Me: and giving makes me happy

    Him: that’s kind of funny to me… not in a mockery way.. but in a similarity way
    Him: the important thing to me in sex is not gratifying myself… it’s sharing the experience with the partner
    Him: which in a sense
    Him: is like what you describe
    Him: although there is the “urge” aspect as well
    Him: the more… biological element

    Me: oh sure
    Me: I mean I am … not asexual >.>

    Me: although lately… <.<

    Him: haha
    Him: that's funny
    Him: I forget when it was but someone was talking about sexual preferences and I was like "meh.. I'm asexual"
    Him: not because I'm not interested
    Him: but because… it has to be the right person and the right circumstances
    Him: although (and don't take this the wrong way PLEASE) but some part of me thinks there is a twinky of hope now

    Me: hahaha
    Me: hope is in reality the worst of all evils, for it prolongs the torment of man :p

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    BuenaVista “I am probably pretty lazy (if not inept) in bed, because I am acting like “letting you have some” is a big deal.”

    Maybe some of you guys have been focused on the super-hot women? Or the women who give off a certain sexual vibe? Truth be told, I’ve hardly even been on the radar of “players” or promiscuous men, because I give off such a “goodie-two-shoes” vibe.

    Anyway, no laziness or “letting you have some” attitude here. But is it chicken or egg? My husband is totally happy with me, and he has a low N.

  • Anacaona

    Oh, Yeah?
    -Percy Bysshe Shelley

    Touche :P

  • Laurel

    Am I the only person here who hasn’t read Nancy Drew? Can someone tell me what her secret for getting male interest was supposed to be?

  • Laurel

    M3 said “The easier it is to be around someone without conflict, the ‘prettier’ they get because you begin to enjoy their company.”

    I really really hope that’s true because I’m very easy to get along with, I don’t like pointless arguing (though that doesn’t mean I’m a doormat, either) and conflict with someone I care about gets my stomach upset. But I lost my serious LTR to a woman who was VERY hard to get along with, as he knew entirely well—he had been with her before me.

    I know people said he was just an exception who needed drama in his life and I was well rid of him—but I wonder if being TOO much “in the bag” (without causing “dread” is I think what they say on the manosphere blog) does make most guys lose interest in a girl.

    I don’t really want to play bitch game but maybe I could learn if I need to.

  • Anacaona

    Am I the only person here who hasn’t read Nancy Drew? Can someone tell me what her secret for getting male interest was supposed to be?
    I’m just vaguely familiar with her. I would welcome a Cliffnotes version if possible too :D

  • Fish

    @Laurel
    Nothing happens in a vacuum. i don’t think you can definitively say you guys were completely equal but she was bitchier. Maybe that’s the case but it is unlikely.

    I’ll give you a personal exmple. I was interested in girl A. We slept together, sex was great but she ended up dating another guy. We decided we’d just be friends and I started dating girl B. B was superior in almost every way except 1: she was lousy in bed. So I ended up dumping girl B and getting back together with girl A. I never told girl B that I broke up with her over sex, and to this day I do regret the decision. However, I can tell you, the girl from my story, girl B is engaged currently.

    My point is that it is unlikely he broke up with you for a girl who was more drama (possible but unlikely). She probably had some benefit you don’t (my guess with no info is either sex or appearance). Just focus on being the best you that you can and good things will happen.

  • Fish

    Nancy drew cliff notes:
    Teenage girl, solves mysteries. Think scooby doo, but just one person and no drug references. . .

  • purplesneakers

    I can’t imagine a woman baking cookies today for someone she friendzoned. Any man who isn’t turned on by someone spending an hour baking for him is a moron.

    I love this idea. Unfortunately I think baking cookies would be seen a lot of men nowadays as being clingy/crazy (of course you have to reach a certain point, but what point? when you move in together without talking about getting married?). There was actually a tv show called “Love Bites” where this was the actual plot of an episode. Baking cookies = too much, even though they had already had sex.

    Fish @ 22: Yeah I’ve noticed I naturally tend to do things like touch arms/shoulders, although sometimes I have to remind myself to smile/laugh more (not that I’m faking it, I’m just naturally introverted and calm/laid-back so I forget to show my feelings sometimes). Talking about sex is different though. I met someone at a gathering who started making cunnilingus/cunning linguist jokes and wanted my feedback, and ughhh I was so uncomfortable and probably came off really bitchy as a result of that. It’s just rare that people socialize and talk about sex in a funny way rather than a crude way.

  • purplesneakers

    Hope @ 42: That was super helpful. It’s hard to know what people mean when they say things online, especially for phrases like “sexual but not slutty” “adoring but not a pushover” etc. etc. without seeing them in practice, because people tend to have different definitions based on their different experiences. Like I said in my post above, I find that it’s rare to see people not already having sex talking about sex in a way that’s not crude.

  • Laurel

    Thank you very much, Fish. I have really searched my conscience for anything I could have done differently or anything I could have BEEN differently, and I appreciate honest feedback.

    I really don’t see how it could have been looks, everyone says (and I’ve asked them to be honest) that I’m at least her equal in the department. On sex, he certainly SEEMED to be enjoying it a lot. Thinking back, there is one thing…this is TMI and now I’m blushing, but that’s why we have the Anonymous Internet, right?…I never had orgasms with him from JUST intercourse , though I came very easily during foreplay. He did ask me if it bothered me that I couldn’t come with him just from thrusting…this is actually very common with women, I think…but I didn’t get the idea it was bothering HIM. Does that really matter a lot to most guys, I wonder? Does it feel better, or more a matter of ego?

    Or maybe there’s something about my personality that just isn’t what he wants, other than being too nice. Probably that.

    Trying to un-blush…sorry to be so obsessed with all this…I’m trying to get over it/him.

  • Chant

    Purplesnakes,

    I have baked several times for men who i was interested in. But i love baking cakes and making up new recipes overall and men have very much appreciated me sharing something with them that i enjoy doing.

    I would encourage you to bake for a man who you are interested in but is a good idea only if it is a genuine gesture. No expectations from him in return, just take the joy of doing something special for him. If the man is a quality man, it shall not go unnoticed.

  • Emily

    >> “Oh, Yeah?
    -Percy Bysshe Shelley”
    —–
    <3! :D

  • Anne

    @ Emily
    “There are also ways of “flirting” that aren’t really sexual at all. Just being really giddy/happy/playful can be really effective.”

    I really agree with this. I think the problem for a lot of Americans is that they don’t know to relate to the opposite sex. For some reason it is difficult to hit a middle ground between standoffish and too much / accused of sexual harassment.
    It’s as if a lot of people don’t have genders anymore. You have to be able to emphasize gender differences without being sexual to be good at flirting. One example is if you’re a young girl living in France, you will walk into a bakery and the 60 year old man working there will turn to talk to you. The tone is always playful, fun and he is talking to the girl in a different way he would to a boy. But it is not sexual or romantic. In most non-feminist countries, conversations between men and women have a very different tone than conversations between same genders. I have American friends who went to study in Paris and felt that every man was hitting on them, because they were unused to the way of speaking. Most 13 year old French boys have a better way with women than 30 year old American men.

    I am not saying the European way is always better, but I think in terms of flirting, a lot of people are better trained.
    If Susan have any experience and would like to compare countries to one another, I’d look forward to reading it :)

  • Fish

    @laurel
    My experience with women is the majority do not orgasm with just thrusting. Most need clitotal assistance. As a guy I don’t mind and actually think its hot when a girl self stimulates during sex. I can do it in some positions.

    It doesn’t sound think this was a you deficiency. Stay the course. don’t change who you are for some dude. You’ll win in the long run. Remember its a marathon not a sprint…

  • a definite beta guy

    Lack of orgasm from thrusting is perfectly normal. No need to be embarassed about that. Even our restricted ladies share a ton of TMI details here lol

  • Hope

    purplesneakers, I talked to a lot of people online, and very rarely would I meet someone like my husband who was on the same page with me. So I’ve had a lot of conversations where it was pretty clear early on that there wasn’t going to be anything more. I guess this is where my sixth sense about people comes in handy. I can tell from some simple friendly exchanges whether or not I should try to get to know someone better.

    I adopted the attitude that I was going to filter and choose, but that I was going to observe people and talk to them to catch as many potential people as possible. I came into contact with thousands of people randomly, most of whom existed as simply anonymous characters on a screen. But behind each one is a real person, and I was always watching, collecting information and processing. So there is luck in meeting my husband, but I made some of my own luck. I realized he was interesting, and I asked to talk to him more.

    Truth is, I had plenty of guys who weren’t interested in me or my lack of sexy dazzle. I have always been the goodie two shoes girl who didn’t even drink soda or coffee, never mind alcohol. I drink water. I don’t wear make-up. I go to the hairdresser once every two years. I’m bland and not a social butterfly. But I worked what I got for my target male audience, guys like my husband who want a nice, sweet, low maintenance and nerdy girl who is not oozing sexiness in public but grabs his crotch a lot in private. The contrast of lady in the streets and purring kitten behind closed doors requires a guy with more subtle tastes. But with some luck and persistence, I found him.

  • J

    @SW

    Great post. The art of flirtation is a lost art

    @Jack

    If a woman hit me with that line, I would be pushing for sex on the first date. What do you do then?

    Dance.

    There’s an art to doing just enough teasing and giving just enough IOIs without being a cocktease. It says, “I want you…..when I’m ready.”

  • Emily

    >> “You have to be able to emphasize gender differences without being sexual to be good at flirting. One example is if you’re a young girl living in France, you will walk into a bakery and the 60 year old man working there will turn to talk to you. The tone is always playful, fun and he is talking to the girl in a different way he would to a boy. But it is not sexual or romantic.”
    ——
    I wouldn’t categorise the English as master flirts (as much as I love them) but when I’m out and about, sometimes old men will randomly wink at me. Like you said, the vibe is more grandfatherly/playful. It’s fun.

  • Abbot

    This author really takes a dig at female beauty being used to attract men –

    “Step back with me, if you will, to around 500,000 – 15,000 B.C. and you find societies that differ dramatically from our modern day civilization…women as well as men both enjoyed great sexual liberty from a young age.”

    She conveniently failed to mention that, like today, only a small percentage of the men “enjoyed” that liberty as much as women.

    “Whereas before, woman was free to explore her sexuality with whomever she wished – if she is now to be considered “valuable” she must remain chaste. Stigmas form, labeling the non-virginal woman as “tainted” and “worthless”. Men conversely, do not fall victim to this stigma and are allowed to continue practicing their sexuality freely. It is worth noting this double standard also began the trade of prostitution—for if you want the women to be chaste but the men promiscuous, there must be a separate class of women to fulfill this role.”

    Ah, the ol “explore her sexuality” cutes-a-mism reveals where the author is coming from. But at least men get to “practice their sexuality” according to her. Whats not mentioned is that just a few men sequestered nearly all the women into harems. The non-qualified women became prostitutes as they had a huge customer base of prehistoric betas who had few sexual choices.

    “With all this comes the make-up, the corsets and girdles, and the striving to be the most beautiful, the most sexually desirable.”

    Yes. to lure in the most powerful males. All the others who approach are collateral annoyances.

    http://www.ladybud.com/2013/05/21/what-is-a-woman-worth/

    .

    .

  • cheching

    Thank you so much for all of the feedback everyone.

    Just to clarify: I was touching more on the fact that my general social attitude is playful and not too serious. I’m actually like this way with everyone – whether they’re male or female, and whether I’m interested in them or not. I’m just a friendly person by nature, but a lot of men seem to think this means I’m ready to jump in the sack with them.

    To be honest, I don’t think I even know HOW to consciously ‘flirt’. I’m definitely never physically aggressive, or overt in my sexual innuendos and the way I dress. I’ve actually never actively pursued a man. When I like a guy, I actually become painfully self-aware. I think I become more ‘relationship-minded’, and suddenly my playfulness goes out the window. In addition to dialing back the laissez-faire attitude, I usually try to demonstrate my interest by being more nurturing (with little acts of kindness and consideration that Buena Vista mentioned). This is obviously the wrong way of doing things though, because it never works for me. I treat guys in the friendzone like brothers (as in asexually, and not in an especially caring manner), yet somehow this makes me relationship worthy. Clearly, my girl game sucks.

    Can someone please elaborate on the idea of adding (relationship) value? Also, a question for the men reading this: Are there any non-verbal or non-physical – generally not-so-obvious – cues that give you the idea that a woman is only interested in sex?

  • cheching

    @Fish

    The idea of mis-valuing one’s RMV is really intriguing to me, and I have yet to figure it out entirely. I have no idea where I fit on this spectrum.

  • Fish

    @checking
    Well I think people project their intentions onto others so a guy who is just looking for sex will push for it & assume the girl is OK with it. Some probably blatantly don’t care. Most women who only want sex are very open about it and will even say “i want to f*ck you.” If you are not looking for no strings sex, those are tactics id avoid.

    RMV & SMV work on the premise that youre worth what you can get onthe open market. If “9” level guys want to sleep with you, your SMV is 9. If “7” quality guys would be in a relationship with you, your RMV is 7. For women your SMV > RMV, for guys its the reverse. Our self valuations usually arent correct because we cant be objective. I have a friend who id say is a 5 (maybe even a 4) and acts like sges a 7. Shes always single, go figure…

  • Sassy6519

    I’m just popping in here to say that if I have to juggle the attention/affection of one more man this week/month, I may just die of exhaustion.

    It’s raining men over here, and I’ve misplaced my umbrella.

    Good lord.

    *Fans self*

  • Fish

    @sassy
    Cheating on me already?!?! #pimpinainteasy

    @Checking
    re: RMV
    adding RMV value is generally 2 parts (we’ll assume you’ve done what you can do intelligence/career wise0: Confidence/flirting (girl game) and appearance (figure, flattering clothes, makeup, etc. Both will make you more desirable from a long term standpoint.

    Re:flirting
    touch is easiest, but not someplace sexual like thighs or butt. Try something like brushing a guy’s arm or shoulder. If he looks like he does, ask if he works out, feel his arm muscle. Those things aren’t sexual, but they scream “I’m interested” and as a bonus, I don’t really see any guy responding negatively. It sounds like you have no problem being flirty, unless it’s someone you are actually interested in. I try to mentally give myself pep talks like “She’s not out of your league, you are funny and charming, go get her!”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Fish

    Cheating on me already?!?! #pimpinainteasy

    Hey, you knew I was “unrestricted” from the very beginning. :P ;)

  • J

    @Abbott

    She conveniently failed to mention that, like today, only a small percentage of the men “enjoyed” that liberty as much as women….
    Whats not mentioned is that just a few men sequestered nearly all the women into harems. The non-qualified women became prostitutes as they had a huge customer base of prehistoric betas who had few sexual choices.

    What’s the proof of this? I’ve seen the infamous 40%, which was neatly disproiven by old Roissy Coomenter Polymath. I’ve yet to see any historian or anthropologist make that claim. Links?

    @purplesneakers Re baking

    I’m getting more and more convinced that Chant is a man, and a hungry one at that. IMO, a man’s response to a gift of food depends on his current level of interest in you. A man with serious intentioins towards you will love it and see you as wife material. A less serious man will see you as desperate to proove yoursel wife material.

    I’ve often said here that I bagged DH with a banana cream pie and a hand-knit sweater. It’s true, but he was already pretty interested. Be careful of giving anything, especially a home-made/handmaid gift, to a man you haven’t pre-qualifed.

  • cheching

    @Fish

    Thanks for the explanation.

    Are you referring to self-valuations of SMV or RMV? As for SMV, isn’t [objective] beauty somewhat subjective though? Also, doesn’t confidence factor into one’s perceived beauty?

    Personally, I know I certainly don’t qualify to be a supermodel. But if head-turning is a good indication, then men generally find me attractive. I had a recent experience though, where a friend’s coworker said some very nasty things about me behind my back. I generally carry myself with confidence, but I guess he must have thought my confidence was unwarranted – kind of like your friend’s situation? It was alarming, but definitely humbling. I’ve actually never gotten such negative feedback before. Well, at least it’s never made it’s way back to me. But who knows what people are saying behind my back.

    I’m perfectly aware that not every man is going to find me attractive, and believe me, I know I’m not physically perfect; but that doesn’t mean I have to hang my head in shame and walk around in a potato sack, does it?

  • cheching

    @Fish

    I think a large part of my problem is trying to ‘over correct’, and not come across as a floozy. It also feels like my ideas of RMV don’t jive with what men really want.

  • Bully

    I suppose that it’s a bit easier to distill male SMV down to metrics and numbers; height, physical prowess, income, ‘endowment’, Game/redpill aware or not etc. These are things you can easily find the average across all men and see where you stack up and establish some sort of composite – e.g. I can fairly comfortably say I’m at least a 7-8 based on quantifiable criteria. I think that kind of thing is a lot harder for women.

  • Fish

    @checking
    Re:SMV
    I agree with bully. It is harder for women to self evaluate. Your best bet is to get someone you know (not a friend zoned guy) and ask how hot you are on a 1-10 scale, and hope they’re honest. It would be tough to be honest with my friend the 4 because I wouldn’t want to hurt her feelings. The alternative is to use a more guy-like method, be flirty with a range of guys & see who responds.

    Generally what men want is going to vary by guy and type. I generally look for looks, sex skills (drive & ability), intelligence & common interests in that order. However not all guys will want them in that order, some may have other criteria. I don’t think knowing your level is as important if you have a history of finding suitable LTR candidate guys.

  • cheching

    @Fish

    Haha. I wouldn’t know how to flirt if my life depended on it. Does anyone remember that Friends episode where Chandler didn’t know how to smile for his wedding pictures? I think I’m kind of like that when it comes to flirting.

    Speaking of which, someone mentioned the “sexy hug” on another post. Would that be considered too much? Because I’m thinking I should learn how to do this.

    Anyway, maybe I’ll ask one of my gay friends to rate me. Thanks again for the feedback!

  • BuenaVista

    Cheching, if you don’t want sexual attention from someone, don’t smile with your mouth open, don’t touch him, don’t laugh at irrelevant things, and don’t devote yourself to conversation with him for more than a minute or two. If you do these things, you *do* want sexual contact, but you just don’t know it. Sorry, these are universal signals of attractions.

    If you have a crush on a guy, and you think you are blowing it by being submissive, guarded and needy — don’t be submissive, guarded and needy. Act like you don’t care what happens, because you can if you want to, and after all it’s just a flirtation not a marriage, so you really DON’T care. If you make a man cookies, don’t do it for his approval; do it because it makes *you* happy. It makes *you* happy to be a giver and a provider. If he doesn’t like the cookies, that makes *him* a loser. So you just tested him, he failed, buh-bye.

    So with these guys you are interested in knowing, smile with your mouth open, smile with both shoulders square and open to them, keep your arms at your sides or touch your hair, touch them on the forearm when you feel like it, and wait for them to open the door, and walk on the inside down the street. And listen so hard that he falls out of his chair two weeks later when you recall that he was a *strong* safety, not a *free* safety. Because strong safeties are the hitters who have the toughness to fill gaps but the speed to maintain a cover-2. That level of detail.

    Ditch the LJBF coterie, because strong men loathe the prospect of being a beta orbiter. So they will avoid you if you are just another attention-whoring-babe who has orbiting wanna-be’s.

    Last, and ymmv, if you don’t want unwanted sexual attention, don’t dress like a slut. I was on the rooftop of the W in DC last night. I don’t ‘club’ because I exercise and work and read in the early mornings. Well. That was a scene from a bad movie. If there had been one girl in a man’s button down and a pair of khakis, who weighed at least a *little bit* less than I weigh, I would have been entranced. Instead, I was surrounded by white girls dressed like hookers from a made-for-TV-movie. Seriously. No difference. I don’t really see the point of going out at night with a “Fuck Me” sign pinned to my left breast. Unless that is the plan.

  • BuenaVista

    Also, for Cheching:

    There is an old saying in technology sales: don’t spill your candy in the lobby.

    This means, when you meet an object of interest, don’t give him everything you have. You have a meeting, and an objective; if you achieve your objective, secure confirmation, and then get the hell out of there. This way there is something to talk about at the follow-up. Don’t spill all your candy all over the floor.

    Another way to put the above is to reference Hemingway. EH wrote and worked incredibly hard. He only finished working when he knew what was going to happen next in his story. Then he stopped for the day. That way he knew how to start again at 5 a.m. the following day. In this way he never stopped writing, when most writers do.

    Never end an interaction with a crush *after* you know what is going to happen next. (I think this is called a one night stand.) End it *before* you know what is going to happen next. This is okay as long as you make it happen, in the next interaction. Otherwise you’re just a manipulative tease, and the penalties for that are severe.

  • cheching

    @BuenaVista

    Thanks. That was a lot.

    Sorry, you lost me on the safety bit, cover-2, etc.

  • BuenaVista

    Okay, he says he likes Rilke, go look up Rilke, and don’t confuse Rilke with Yesmin or Char. Like that.

  • Bully

    @Fish

    That is true. If she’s a 4 because of weight, that can be fixed. If she’s a 4 because of attitude/lack of girl game, that can be fixed. But if it’s just unfortunate genetics, then there’s not much that can be done beyond either accepting her lot – or if she wants to punch above her weight – then plastic surgery if she wants to go down that road. I certainly would not fault a woman at all for doing so, as I am keeping that card in my hand myself for when I reach a “certain age” so to speak. And yet, I can also understand that the mere suggestion would be absolutely devastating to a woman’s ego. It’s a tough position. If she’s already taken all of the “low-hanging fruit” (weight/game/makeover) and is still dissatisfied with the men she’s attracting that may be the next option.

    Granted, I speak as someone that doesn’t want kids. There was a story about a wealthy Chinese man that sued his very physically attractive wife because her ‘bad genes’ brought him ugly children. The surgery was really impressive though. She went from a 3 to a 9, easily.

  • Bully

    Re: male SMV, I got to thinking about my family.

    I have two cousins in mind, both of which should be blowing me away. The first is as tall as I am (6’3″). I work out with him a lot and he matches me fairly easily. Perfect facial genetics. Incredibly wealthy family. Pursuing a difficult major in school and doing well. Pretty smart, world traveller. And yet, he struggles with women constantly due to crippling anti-game – the kind that I’ve had no problems at all pulling. I’ve been trying to help him out a bit and I think he’s starting to get it – at least a little.

    The other is a little younger but with even better genetics – aside from the dopey grin he has plastered on his face at all times. Gifted athlete. Amazing body. He’s in an LTR with a middling girl he’ll probably end up marrying who has him wrapped around her finger. She’s unpleasant at best with streaks of incredibly bossy. His mother was trying to feed me the line “you’re almost 30, that window is just about closed..” I only shudder to think about the anti-game his mother forced upon him.

    Both of these men have absolutely prime genetic stock, finances, and positioning, and yet they are so absolutely crippled by their lack of game. They’re 9s and 10s, but with all that unrealized SMV, they’re more like 5s. I wonder how many other high quality men are stuck with their blinders on.
    I’m a 7-8 at best that may just scrape 9 in his mid 30s as I peak if all goes well. And yet, I’ve had far more success than both of them.

    I’m working on unplugging the 1st. I worry the 2nd is a lost cause.

  • BuenaVista

    Bully, the best thing you can do is plant the seed. So that when they are miserable and/or assaulted in divorce, their children removed by the state, their homes taken, their friends fled, they have a distant thought of someone who understood long before. There’s no way you’re going to save them now.

  • purplesneakers

    I suppose that it’s a bit easier to distill male SMV down to metrics and numbers; height, physical prowess, income, ‘endowment’, Game/redpill aware or not etc. These are things you can easily find the average across all men and see where you stack up and establish some sort of composite – e.g. I can fairly comfortably say I’m at least a 7-8 based on quantifiable criteria. I think that kind of thing is a lot harder for women.

    Huh. I would have thought it was the opposite. Maybe it’s because I’ve had the experience of going from overweight and unkempt to normal weight and not-so-unkempt as a young adult, and never used crude sexuality to get male attention as a teenager, but I find it hard to believe that most girls don’t really know where they stand on the attractiveness scale. Are they really that deluded? It kind of makes me glad I was an ‘ugly duckling’ if I would have ended up with a huge ego otherwise.

    I think it might get difficult if you include models/actresses, because then the scale skews downward, etc., and I do think there are differences among cultures and subcultures as to what’s considered most attractive (I’ve been jumped on before for suggesting this, but IME this is very true. educated white guys like very thin women compared to other demographic groups, at least in NYC). I think better than a ‘rating’ would be advice on how to maximize one’s own personal experience.

    I actually find it a lot harder to say what a guy’s SMV is because women’s preferences in men tend to vary much more than men’s preferences in women, e.g. the old hipster v. muscle guy debate. I also doubt that a guy’s SMV peaks in his 30’s so much as in his late 20’s, given that women put less emphasis on money/career now, and men physically decline after 30 too, especially if they’re balding. If that was the case you’d see a lot more early 20’s women lining up to get with 30-somethings, and that’s not something you see often, I guess except with guys that really work at it (like the ones on this blog).

  • Hope

    Bully, that’s an interesting story about the Chinese man who divorced his wife. I think the deception is definitely awful, but the whole ugly baby thing? Most babies come out looking kind of busted. I was told I was incredibly ugly as a baby, too.

    I think there has to be more to the story, like the fact that it was a girl had to have played a role. A lot of Chinese want sons, and a divorce would be cheaper than paying the penalty for having more than one child. I was told that if I had been a boy, my father would not have divorced my mother. I take it with a grain of salt, but it is definitely something that I never forgot.

  • Emily

    I agree with you. By the time a guy hits his late 20’s, he won’t have hit the peak of his career potential, but he’s still far enough along for you to get an idea of the general trajectory. It’s not like 35 year old guys are over the hill or anything and I can believe that they’re in a better position than their female peers, but I agree with Susan that males generally peak in SMV around age 28.

  • Hope

    Cultural perceptions of beauty are interesting as well. My mother and Chinese female relatives like my aunts would tell me that I was chubby, ungraceful, that my skin was too dark, and I was not attractive. So that was my self-perception for a long time, the ugly fat girl.

    But the feedback I got when I was in school in America from American guys was that I was cute, thin, small, and that my “tan” colored skin looked good. So even though I thought of myself as like a 2 or 3 for the longest time, apparently other guys thought I was higher.

    These days I more or less behave like I’m around 5 or 6, but that’s a lot better than my self-perception back in the day.

  • Fish

    @Bully
    “you’re almost 30, that window is just about closed..”
    LOL its funny you say that, at a family gathering, we were discussing which of the bachelors (me, little brother, younger cousin) would be the “last man standing.” My dad instantly said me, because I learned my lesson. LOL different strokes for different folks I guess.

    @sneakers
    I peeked at 24. I was about a 7-8 depending, now I’m about a 5-6. Women do vary very much on what they like, but some guys have it very easy. 6ft+ and fit is almost automatically 7 unless they’ve got something weird going on with their face. I agree with bully 100% in that just dropping the anti-game, will let a guy achieve his full potential.

    I think you’ll find there are a lot of 20 somethings who end up with 30 something guys. Mostly because a lot of guys in their early 20’s are just clueless dating-wise, or looking to hook-up. So early 20’s girls end up with mid-late 20’s guys, mid to late 20’s girls end up with early to mid 30’s guys. I pretty much exclusively date 24-30yo women (granted, i dye the gray out and easily pass for 28, I also get crazy jew-fro if I don’t get it cut frequently).

    Really a woman’s “rating” only matters if you are not happy with what you’re getting. My friend the 4-5 is baby crazy and wants married yesterday. I try to give her advice, she doesn’t take it. She has girl anti-game. She could use some help. If you are meeting interested guys you find LTR-worthy who are looking for more than sex, you are in your sweet spot. “Rating” is only relevant if you want “better” than you’re getting.

    @Hope
    All babies are ugly and annoying. I do ok with kids, but until like age 3, I really want nothing to do with them. However, the walking & talking coherently ones love me. I think of babies like bombs: you never know which end is going to explode, so I keep them at arms length.

  • Fish

    Re: super skinny chicks

    i think its ridiculous that some guys prefer this, but as I don’t, I just look at it as more value for me (kinda like not being a boob guy, I can talk to a girl and not stare at her chest).

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @Fish

    It is harder for women to self evaluate. Your best bet is to get someone you know (not a friend zoned guy) and ask how hot you are on a 1-10 scale, and hope they’re honest. It would be tough to be honest with my friend the 4 because I wouldn’t want to hurt her feelings.

    I was talking with a female friend on facebook who’s about a 4. She kept going on about how she is now 35 and doesn’t like any of the men around her and acting as if she were a 7 or 8 in looks.

    I usually am not so blunt but she exasperated me so much that I couldn’t help launching a nuclear intercontinental ballistic REDPILL her way and told her she was about a 4 in looks and she needed to get realistic if she wanted to reach her stated goal of marriage and children.

    I was so blunt with her and argued with her when she said she had always had a lot of attention that I thought she was going to unfriend me on facebook.

    But she didn’t. She took my advice to stop being so picky and also to try internet dating but to give more average guys a chance.

    So, if your female 4 friend asks or brings up her dating woes you may want to guide the conversation there and then be blunt but positive about what she can do realistically. She may realize where she’s at but if she’s thinking she’s a 6 (which can definitely happen due to men showering attention downward and due to go-girl cheerleading) then it’s unlikely she’ll find a great guy.

    I think that telling hard truths while letting the person you know you want the best for them and aren’t trying to destroy them, in the right moment, is a hallmark of true friendship because you want the best for them and you have the courage to speak up and risk offense.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @Bully

    I think you should ask your cousin how things are going with his gf and if he’s happy with her bossy and unpleasant demeanor. Then after some discussion you can tell him you think he can do a lot better and needs to get some more self respect and love himself.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @Bully

    But it does show what a powerful force anti-game is. It’s like anti-matter, annihilating every male that “touches” it.

  • cheching

    @purplesneakers

    I think a lot of people go through an ugly phase during puberty. I was an ugly duckling throughout much of high school, and didn’t really blossom until I reached university. I don’t see how that experience can help a girl pinpoint exactly where she stands on the attractiveness scale though. Beauty is such a subjective thing. The man I mentioned in an earlier comment would easily place me 3 points below where other men might place me. Outliers should never be disregarded though. They can be statistically significant, but this really skews the average. So should one adopt the average or the consensus?

    Also, I don’t see why models/actresses should be taken out of the pool – those modified by plastic surgery don’t count. There are plenty of women who are beautiful enough to be models/actresses, but for whatever reason they aren’t. So should they be excluded as well? I don’t think manipulating the pool gives a fair assessment. Being a big fish in a small pond feels great until you reach the ocean.

    Anyway, I agree that it’s a lot harder to pinpoint a guy’s SMV. My preferences are usually very different from most of my girl friends. I don’t find muscle-y men attractive at all.

  • Fish

    @Hansolo
    “So, if your female 4 friend asks or brings up her dating woes you may want to guide the conversation there and then be blunt but positive about what she can do realistically”

    Been done, I’ve wiped my hands of it at this point. I do want everyone to have a chance to be successful, but if they aren’t going to listen, meh, I’ve got 99 problems, but that aint one.

    As much as I want my friends to be successful, most of them are entrenched in their particular issues to the point where nothing I do or say would really be of benefit. It would be like one of them telling me “stop sleeping around and give some average looking girl a chance long term.” Not gonna happen and its a waste of time & effort to bring up. My particular issue is as long as I feel like I could do better, I won’t settle down. They have a variety, but they’re no less stubborn than me. . .

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @Fish

    Okay, I get that. If you’ve tried or they don’t want to listen, nothing you can do.

  • Fish

    @Cheching
    ” Outliers should never be disregarded though. They can be statistically significant, but this really skews the average. So should one adopt the average or the consensus?”

    I disagree, on outliers. A lot of the time, you pretty much have to remove them for the data to make sense. Usually outliers skew the average in a way that can distort overall interpretation of the data, which is why they are often thrown out (with accompanying footnotes).

    As far as accepting the average or the consensus, it depends. How aggressively do you want to price the market? Its like picking a limit price on a stock. You can pick one not far outside the money that is likely to trigger, or place a more aggressive price that may or may not. We’re talking about your dating life here, so its up to the individual to decide how much price risk they are willing to assume.

    For me, RMV 8 is the “sweet spot”, speaking in terms of total value, not just looks. That is my price for the foreseeable future. That may be overly aggressive, but the alternative is that I’m not in a relationship and I am ok assuming that risk. If a woman wants a husband and babies, she may want to set a price closer to the market. So she may want to use a more average value and price closer to that. Also, like any supply/demand example, if a woman sees there is a lot of demand at her price point, since supply is finite (there is only one of any given woman), she can safely raise her price.

  • Emily

    HanSolo (87),

    I suspect that male friends can get away with that a lot more easily than female friends (although I’m sure it was still very difficult to do).

    I have a friend who’s getting back into dating after getting out of a 10 year relationship and she’s been doing a bit of online dating. I was with her while she was looking through profiles.

    Her: *pointing at a profile* I tried messaging that guy but I never heard back from him.

    Me: Somebody like that is probably going to be dating another “9”.

    Her: I could date a 9.

    *awkward silence*
    —–
    Even that conversation made me feel (and probably look) like a total bitch. I do think that she’ll catch on eventually though. She also does seem to ask me for a lot of advice even though some of the stuff I tell her is more “controversial”. (In the beginning she accused me of “slut shaming” lol.) I sent her the link to Rules Revisited. I have no idea if she’s checked it out though.

  • Liz

    @HanSolo @Bully

    Then after some discussion you can tell him you think he can do a lot better and needs to get some more self respect and love himself.

    Ha ha, that’s exactly what we tell our girl friends who are dating assholes.

  • purplesneakers

    I think you’ll find there are a lot of 20 somethings who end up with 30 something guys. Mostly because a lot of guys in their early 20′s are just clueless dating-wise, or looking to hook-up. So early 20′s girls end up with mid-late 20′s guys, mid to late 20′s girls end up with early to mid 30′s guys. I pretty much exclusively date 24-30yo women (granted, i dye the gray out and easily pass for 28, I also get crazy jew-fro if I don’t get it cut frequently).

    I would love to find someone in his early 30’s to date. But I don’t know where to meet them (and the ones on online dating sites are looking to fuck around just like any guy in his 20’s, IME, then again, this is NYC), my family members wouldn’t want to make introductions because they think that’s too old (lol). and they’re usually not as attractive as guys around my own age, although the lack of future time orientation in guys my own age is one reason I don’t get too involved if I get the sense they would just waste my time.

    @ cheching
    I think that men arguing on the internet “oh that girl is a 7.25, not an 8″ is ridonkulous lol, but I don’t think beauty is *that* subjective. But I think you should consider the mode, not the average, as that is most likely to be relevant. What I meant is that the ‘ugly duckling’ phase helps you be more realistic because you realize that people are only treating you a certain (better) way because of how you look or are dressed, not because you’re just *awesome*, and you never delude yourself into thinking that straight guys really want to hear you talk about Real Housewives or whatever. Although I guess just being red pill-aware helps too.

    And if you were to exclude actresses from the pool for plastic surgery, pretty much all of them would be taken out! But I do think you should consider geographic location, e.g. the cream of the crop in a small Midwestern city would be just another pretty girl in NYC. There’s no point of a ‘universal’ scale if you can only be in one market.

    That’s so funny about your friends’ preferences–my group is the opposite, all my friends like skinny musicians or nerds. :p

    @ Emily
    You can usually subtly tell a girl that she’s aiming out of her league by saying something like ‘no I think you and [much less attractive guy] would be a great match.’ LOL. I think a male acquaintance did this in college once when he was like ‘you should get with [really short guy].’ I said he was too short (he was shorter than me! he also had a gross personality, i.e. he would hit on every girl within eyesight at parties), and the acquaintance was like ‘you’re short too, besides who else do you have’ (or something like that). I made it clear I wasn’t interested in hook-ups, but I’m pretty sure he played a cruel prank where he gave that guy my phone number but told him it was someone else’s, which led to some booty call texts, ugh (or maybe he really was into me? probably just wanted some action and thought I would be easy, sigh). The irony is that this sociopath acquaintance tried to hook up with me at one point.

    I had a cousin who basically shamed me for my weight all the time when we were growing up, and told me to lose weight if I wanted to find a boyfriend, and honestly, it didn’t motivate me at all, only made me more depressed, because it’s not like I was deluded about what guys were attracted to. It personally would have been more helpful to me to have people support me unconditionally.

  • purplesneakers
  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Purplesneakers….as is so often the case, there is an appropriate song.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    purplesneakers, now that one is definitely interesting, the counterpart to women wanting more masculine-faced men for flings/while ovulating but more feminine-faced men for relationships/while not ovulating.

    By the way, is there no chance you can move out of NYC? That is notoriously a rough market. I personally didn’t care about being close to my parents (heh) so I was willing to move anywhere in the world if I found the right guy. You might want to expand your search outside of your local area?

  • Fish

    @Hope
    “By the way, is there no chance you can move out of NYC? That is notoriously a rough market.”

    Thats exactly what I was thinking, it sounds like NYC is an especially rough market. I’m thinking maybe it has to do with their being too many options, making it hard to value oneself and ones position properly.

    I personally am vehemently opposed to living/working in NYC, Philly, DC, Boston, Chicago or LA. I don’t think the payoff is worth it in those places.

  • Escoffier

    Add SF to that list. Slogan being, “a town full of 5s who think they’re 9s.”

    As bad as NYC can be, there is nothing quite so vapid or soul-killing as the bar scene in the Marina/Cow Hollow on a Friday night.

    That said, I would live there if I could … for different reasons …

  • J

    These days I more or less behave like I’m around 5 or 6, but that’s a lot better than my self-perception back in the day.

    Hope, I’m not going to do numbers, but I think you are very pretty.

    I’ve observed that in many ethnic communities that “colorism” exists. There is often a desire among white ethnics to look more “white,” hence the Carmela Soprano-look—middle-aged Mediterrean lady with bleached blonde hair. I personally find the whole thing odd.

  • J

    now that one is definitely interesting, the counterpart to women wanting more masculine-faced men for flings/while ovulating but more feminine-faced men for relationships/while not ovulating.

    Indeed, it is. There is also research that says men look at women’s for STRs/flings and faces for LTRs/marriages. Perhaps theres a sweet spot. Movie star georgeous is too much, too intimidating, or too hard to trust for fidelity, but a butterface is not enough.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I find the comments on the article more interesting:

    1. Madonna-whore complex
    2. Researchers are lying
    3. men cheat too

  • Man

    @HanSolo & Bully:

    But it does show what a powerful force anti-game is. It’s like anti-matter, annihilating every male that “touches” it.

    Haha… That would make a good post for HUS because this way HUSsies wouldn’t have to up their game so much to find a LTR. It looks like there are so many anti-gamers out there…

    What is an antigamer?

    An antigamer is a person who recognizes how truly pathetic gamers are. Antigamers don’t hate gamers because they are jealous of gamers in any way, but because they are disgusted with the way gamers choose to live their lives. Most antigamers don’t hate videogames. Some play videogames occasionally, but don’t let videogames take priority over anything in their life. Rather than selfishly wasting all their free time playing videogames, they choose other activities which are beneficial to themselves or others.

  • Sassy6519

    That article is quite interesting. I’m fascinated by how some of the conclusions drawn from the study contradict some of the research studied here on HUS.

    When it comes to forming LTRs, what type of “feminine” female face is ideal?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m fascinated by how some of the conclusions drawn from the study contradict some of the research studied here on HUS.

      How so?

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/07/31/hookinguprealities/player-or-boyfriend-its-written-on-his-forehead/

      In this case, the men overwhelmingly preferred the [feminine female] on the right, who they correctly surmised was more interested in a fling. Apparently, large, wide eyes, large lips and small jaws correlate to interest in short-term sex. They also correlate to modern cultural standards of beauty. It may be simply that for women, the more attractive you are, the more sexual opportunities you have.

      Some other interesting findings:

      Men nearly always picked the Party Girl, regardless of what kind of relationship they were seeking.

      It doesn’t surprise me that male attraction triggers might be influenced by fear of cuckolding. Again, keep in mind this is not a case of saying, “I’m afraid the hot one will cheat, so I’ll pick the less hot one.” This is subconscious – the male prefers a different face for the LTR. It makes sense that both sexes would have evolved to maximize pair-bonding potential, as that is the most successful approach to raising young.

  • Escoffier

    Man, I don’t think that is what is meant by “anti-game.” Rather, the term means a set of behaviors that are inherently unattractive to women, such as over-solicitousness, wimpiness, etc. For a lot of guys who don’t do well with women, the assertion is that they don’t necessarily need game in a postive sense–do this, this and this (as in various game tactics such as negging, DHV, etc.). Rather, these guys simply need to stop doing things that are counter-productive–anti-game–and things will likely get better for them.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, I find this impossible to put in words. And I think others do as well, they just won’t admit it. E.g., I have read many times on the sphere that men like “symetrical” faces. Well, yeah, who doesn’t? But that does not reveal much. When was the last time you saw a face that was genuinely asymetrical? Even on someone just average or even downright unattractive?

    Anyway, for me a LTR face has a “know it when I see it quality.” It is somehow “softer,” more open, inviting, exudes kindness and reserve. In keeping with this, I have never felt the same pull that most guys do toward 9s and 10s (with one exception, ahem). I can recognize them as objectively in that range because I know the criteria by which the generality judges. However, my own preference is for a face a point or two lower, and not merely for tactical or strategic reasons, but I have just always found them more attractive.

    However, take this all with a pinch of (Diamon Crystal kosher) salt, because I also am not a big believer in the suddeness or overwhelming power of “the wall,” and my cut-off for “too skinny” probably starts where most internet lady-graders would say “Ewww, fat.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    From the article that purplesneakers presented.

    They found that men rated women with more feminine features more highly for a fling.

    But in making long-term choices, men “may actually prefer less attractive/feminine women,” they added.

    This is in contrast to what was stated in McClintock’s study that was examined on the HUS article “The Most Attractive Women Have the Least Casual Sex”.

    In contrast, in experimental studies designed to measure individual’s acted preferences (as opposed to stated preferences), physical attractiveness is highly valued by both genders. The consistency of findings over a wide range of studies makes the conclusions reasonably credible: Both women and men value physical attractiveness highly in actual choices but value it less when reporting their preferences.

    The fact that men rate highly feminine faces as the most physically attractive contradicts with the idea that men select for less feminine faces for LTRs. Even McClintock seems to be saying that men state a preference of not valuing physical attractiveness much, while actually highly considering/valuing female physical attractiveness in their choices of mates.

    I just find the results/conclusions of the studies themselves to be somewhat contradictory.

  • cheching

    @Fish

    Great analogies.

    I just don’t think one should discount the opinion of a dissenter simply because you don’t like how it sounds.

    I think a post about girl anti-game would be interesting.

  • cheching

    @purplesneakers

    I couldn’t agree more. There were some guys who did a complete 180 on me – from total indifference to acting like I was the most interesting girl alive. Do they really think I’m that desperate for attention to not realize this? Haha. What a bunch of crock!

    I find it interesting that everyone is bashing the dating market in NYC. I’ve lived and worked there, and I actually prefer it to the dating dynamics in Toronto. The men in NYC are aggressive – if they see something they like, they GO FOR IT. Personally, I love it. It gets things going at least! Not like this cowardly beta bullshit that I have to deal with in Toronto. As nice and as interested as the guys might be, at the end of the day, if they’re not DOING anything about it, then what does it matter?

    Sure, there are a lot of cads in NYC. But it’s not impossible to find relationship-oriented men. In fact, most of my friends in New York are in LTRs. I’m just saying that it gives women the CHANCE to weed out the cads at least.

  • Bully

    Man: Heh, that site reminds me of reddit / theredpill’s thoughts on video games. They’re being called “achievement porn” and apparently if you spend any time at all on gaming you’re completely throwing that time away.

    I think that’s a bit too hard line, personally. I’ve got a career and enough self-improvement projects going as it is. Sometime a man’s got to relax.

    Besides, video games are a better use of time than, say, being in an awful relationship.

  • Bully

    FWIW I unequivocally prefer feminine faces for LTRs but I’m not particularly interested in cadding it up; not that the drive isn’t there to do so but I usually am dug too deep into something else to bother.

  • Man

    @Escoffier & Bully: I get it. I think it was a funny analogy (or coincidence) since HUSsies are trying to filter out “players” and “up their game” to find a LTR.

  • Hope

    Girl anti game is pretty much acting like a guy… and guy anti game is basically acting like a girl. So think of a typical guy and act the opposite of that.

    Examples of girl anti game:

    Cursing, profanity and rude language.
    Sarcasm and one-upping others.
    Hurling insults and put-downs.
    Short hair and “man clothes.”
    Argumentative and confrontational.
    Acting “gangsta,” walking with a swagger, masculine body language.
    Scowling and frowning, never friendly.

    I suppose a very attractive woman could get away with all of this, but even then I think it would decrease her appeal for a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girl anti game is pretty much acting like a guy… and guy anti game is basically acting like a girl. So think of a typical guy and act the opposite of that.

      +1

      Brilliant. Nothing good comes out of acting like the opposite gender. Nurture the differences!

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    A study shows unprotected sex helps women be smarter and happier.

    I guess just filter carefully for both character and disease and make sure you’re on birth control unless you’re going for a baby.

    http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/health/study-unprotected-sex-makes-women-happier-smarter

    A new study claims that women who engage in unprotected sex are smarter and happier, thanks to antidepressant properties in sperm.
    SUNY Albany researchers claim that certain chemicals in semen are mood-altering: estsrone and oxycotin elevates mood, cortisol promotes affection, serotonin acts as an anti-depressant and melatonin induces sleep, Gawker reports.

    Data collected from 293 female students surveyed on campus found women who had oral sex or sex without a condom were more contented then their protected counterparts.

    Researchers also found that women with a considerable amount of seminal plasma in their system had improved concentration, and were more successful in completing cognitive tasks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Like Hope, I’ve been aware of that for a long time. It’s a definite plus in a relationship once STD tests have been completed and BC attended to.

  • Hope

    Han solo, old news I heard about years ago… there was a study from 2002 about the same thing. Birth control is horrible for me, so I would rather swallow.

    Here’s that study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12049024

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    Oh sure, Hope! ;) Ruin my fun with your calling it “old news”! lol Or should I call you Kill Joy? :D

    Actually, all joking aside, that link is referring to the very same study you mention. So, exactly the same thing.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1015257004839

    Anyways, it’s interesting.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    And it wasn’t very accurate of the abcactionnews writer to call it a “new study” 10 years after the fact.

  • Richard Aubrey

    What the freaking freak?
    Drove through a resorty, beachy area this afternoon. Nice summer afternoon. The number of young women singly or in groups was approx triple the number of young men.
    The guys all have jobs? Video gaming?

  • Man

    @Hope: I am seeing the logical implications of your comment #116:

    IF girl anti-game = acting like a guy AND guy anti-game = acting like a girl THEN guy game = girl anti-game AND girl game = guy anti-game.

    There fore, a guy’s game is:

    Cursing, profanity and rude language.
    Sarcasm and one-upping others.
    Hurling insults and put-downs.
    Short hair and “man clothes.”
    Argumentative and confrontational.
    Acting “gangsta,” walking with a swagger, masculine body language.
    Scowling and frowning, never friendly.

  • Hope

    Man, yeah that pretty much describes a lot of guys who are popular with the young girls. It’s called jerk game, and it’s apparently quite effective.

    My husband actually cusses a lot, even if he doesn’t do most of the rest of that list…

  • Man

    @Hope:

    Man, yeah that pretty much describes a lot of guys who are popular with the young girls. It’s called jerk game, and it’s apparently quite effective.

    You could have added playing video games and then the analogy of comment #105 is perfect. Actually I have known two young girls who fit perfectly in the example and whose boyfriends loved to play video games. Interestingly, one of them would state that she wanted a boyfriend who was into cultural things, loftier interest, etc.

  • Bully

    “I think you’ll find there are a lot of 20 somethings who end up with 30 something guys. Mostly because a lot of guys in their early 20′s are just clueless dating-wise, or looking to hook-up. So early 20′s girls end up with mid-late 20′s guys, mid to late 20′s girls end up with early to mid 30′s guys. I pretty much exclusively date 24-30yo women (granted, i dye the gray out and easily pass for 28, I also get crazy jew-fro if I don’t get it cut frequently).”

    This was why I didn’t date all in my early-mid 20s. I sensed the SMV differential and decided to wait until I had the advantage. Once I amassed some modicum of wealth – even if it’s just enough to own a small home and a nice car – it helps tremendously. Nearly unlimited freedom to date who you want. Having money in dating benefits only in terms of logistics; not having to worry about parents, roommates, having a car to get places, etc. More than that probably won’t help you, but once you tick all those boxes, you’re pretty golden.

    Even at 30 though I even still get 18 year olds hitting my profile on OKcupid (without me having browsed them first). I don’t really care about (age/2)+7 social gymnastics anyhow – if you’re legal I’ll consider it – but if women were as unanimously turned off by older men as is often claimed here these hits wouldn’t be happening. Once in awhile I’ll get a message from one, though I’m not interested in dating till my flurry of out of town trips dies down.

    One of those things to look what women do, not what they say (and Susan has noted this is good advice for both genders to follow.)

  • Ramble

    A study shows unprotected sex helps women be smarter and happier.

    I guess just filter carefully for both character and disease and make sure you’re on birth control unless you’re going for a baby.

    Han, blasting inside a woman is good for her, birth control (as it is becoming more wisely known) is not.

    It is not hard to draw the ultimate conclusion.

  • cheching

    @Hope

    I’m referring to more of the well-intentioned game assisting that ends up sabotaging game instead.

    For example, personally speaking: A confident man is sexy, but a cocky one is not. Being learned and cultured is great, but acting pretentious is a huge turn off.

  • a definite beta guy

    So one of my coworkers suggested I should skip the hawks game and head to her place instead.

    This is…probably the 4th time something like thos has happened. Maybe I need to become a zombie at work :/

  • Fish

    @Ramble
    “Han, blasting inside a woman is good for her, birth control (as it is becoming more wisely known) is not.”

    Being child-free is good for me. Creating babies is not. . .

    Unless by inside her you mean someplace other than her vagina, in which case I’m on board. . .

  • Sai

    @Sassy
    “When it comes to forming LTRs, what type of “feminine” female face is ideal?”

    Yeah, I’m curious about that too.

    “A great approach is to use a line about how something drives you crazy and he must stop immediately or suffer the consequences. Works really well. You offer a compliment and then rescind it.”

    I almost did that once -actually I was fighting the urge to yell “Stop talking!”

    …Right then, what’s the proper way to walk, and how does one throw out a seductive look?
    My current strategy consists of walking up to a handsome man and proclaiming, “Good day/evening, my name is ???. I think you are quite handsome and would like to talk to you. I understand you may feel differently and I respect your right to feel that way, so if you want me to I’ll leave you alone.”

  • Gin Martini

    Yes and no, chech. From *your* persepctive, it might, but not from a man’s. It might sabotage him with you, but not his overall chances.

    Confident > cocky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slightly unsure > wimpy.

    The cocky man will do far better than even the slightly unsure man. I think J has stated that women are so starved for assertiveness, that they will accept dysfunctional forms of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The cocky man will do far better than even the slightly unsure man. I think J has stated that women are so starved for assertiveness, that they will accept dysfunctional forms of it.

      He will, but not with the same women.

      The cocky man gets girls who like cocky.

      The slightly unsure man fails to get girls who like confident.

      Those are not the same girls.

  • Fish

    @Sai
    “Good day/evening, my name is ???. I think you are quite handsome and would like to talk to you. I understand you may feel differently and I respect your right to feel that way, so if you want me to I’ll leave you alone.”

    I would suggest something funny or playful as an intro, yours makes you sound kind of stuffy and unconfident (which you may not be). Maybe something along the lines of “Hi, i’m sai, i saw you drinking that bud light, that is gonna be a 1 point deduction for crappy beer, but you’re cute so it evens out, how are you?”

    You have made a joke, showed interest and done it in a cool manner. Really you can do something sinilar with any observable trait. . .

  • MARY

    Susan, I did it. I cracked the code!

    For a long time you and your readers have been trying to find the “sweet spot” of a happy medium or mutually beneficial trade off for both and it all of a sudden dawned on me in a flash of insight.

    Raw-dogging.

    Yes, you heard that right.

    Since RDing seems to be the creme de la creme of sexual experience for men, yet for years now you’ve been agonizing over how long a woman should “wait” to have sex in order to take the relationship to the next level and not the next trash pick-up, RAW DOGGING is the answer.

    How?

    Men don’t want to feel that she is making him wait longer than she’s made her ex-sexual partners.
    At the same time if she’s at the age and space in her life where she wants a serious relationship and if this is the guy she wants a serious relationship with, she can’t just jump in the sack with him and risk losing him.

    What to do?

    The answer is so simple I’m smacking my head that none of us have thought of it before…..

    Condoms are for casual sex. Women are to use condoms with during all casual sex (non-long-term-relationships) encounters. Even so called “boyfriend” if they are not talking marriage.

    Now, for “the one”? Tell him that you want him to be the only man to raw dog you. In order for that to happen, there has to be a serious long-term commitment.

    BINGO!
    YAHTZEE!

    He feels totally gratified that he will be the first and perhaps only man to raw dog you, and you have managed to delay sex long enough to get a serious relationship!

    Two birds with one stone!

    Why hadn’t any of us thought of this before?

    Gotdang I’m a genius!

  • HereIAm

    Susan @127

    I couldn’t disagree more. Perhaps this needs to be put in context but – no not even close. The whole notion of growing up and taking responsibility for your life directly leads to people becoming fuller more complete human beings. If you want to genderize that maturation process, it that means women become/integrate a more masculine and men become/integrate more feminine as they mature. I know there are studies that show this in couples as they mature but frankly its inherent in almost any notion of growth or individuation whether you want to talk about ‘integrating the shadow self” or whatever.

    So, while I wouldn’t say seeking to act like the opposite gender is the way to go about things, some of the very best things in life (growing up) are in a particular way associated with displaying both male and female characteristics.

    If you’re not looking for an adult relationship or a relationship between two complete human beings, and if that’s what does it for you, find someone who is hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine and good luck. That’s exactly who I would walk away from.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HereIAm

      If you want to genderize that maturation process, it that means women become/integrate a more masculine and men become/integrate more feminine as they mature.

      But I don’t want to genderize that maturation process, and see no reason why it might be sensible or valid to do so.

  • Fish

    @Mary

    Hate to burst your bubble, I think you’re going to have to keep searching. As most women are on the pill these days, no condom is not LTR bait. I don’t know about other guys, but its mostly a requirement for any kind of relationship for me. Might you get some shock value out of it? Maybe, but its not going to keep someone interested or make them want a LTR if they didn’t already.

    I could also see this strategy backfire in 2 ways: A) guy thinks “Oh shit, gold digger trying to get pregnant and trap me”, or B) wonders why it is such a big deal and what that means. Sex without a condom is not uncommon, I read a study that said it’s around 30%.

    There is no magic bullet besides bringing overall value to someone looking for a legitimate LTR that is going to “break the code”. There is no easy way out on this: Imrpove yourself as much as possible, filter inappropriate guys, make your intentions known and pursue LTR.

  • MARY

    Interesting perspective HereIAm, but maybe a tad bit too holarchic for a commentariat that tends toward the binary and linear.

  • MARY

    Fish, the presupposition is that the couple is already thick into dating to begin with. The woman is thinking, “He could be the one and I don’t want to be tossed onto his pump-n-dump list by having sex too early. I want this to go somewhere.”

    ” As most women are on the pill these days”

    Really? “Most” women? Even if a considerable amount of women are using the pill, they still have to use condoms to guard against certain STDs.

    “Sex without a condom is not uncommon, I read a study that said it’s around 30%. ”

    30% damn fools.

  • HereIAm

    @MARY
    The simpler point is this: I believe Susan advocates women to go after high beta men. But if you genderize the characteristics of a high beta man, Susan is advocating going after men who have some feminine characteristics. So there is in fact something good that comes from having both feminine and masculine traits.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan is advocating going after men who have some feminine characteristics

      Not at all. Which beta traits are feminine? Emotional intelligence?

      I think you’re confusing masculine with hypermasculine. The last thing we need is more of the latter.

  • Fish

    @Mary
    “Fish, the presupposition is that the couple is already thick into dating to begin with.”

    How thick into dating? 2-3 dates? I posted another survey that said 72% of women have sex within 5 dates (I think thats right, I know the percentage). The problem with your plan is it is not differentiating, it might add value for a certain subset, but its certainly nothing novel. And thats assuming the guy believes that you “never do that” (I wouldn’t).

    If a guy is not willing to wait past 3 dates for sex, making him wait for unprotected is not going to work. Guys who will wait will wait, guys who won’t, won’t. The only thing that is going to make a guy wait is value (or something REALLY rare. i had an ex who said she was saving her anal virginity for marriage. Thats a prize for a certain subset of guys).

    Men and women do not think of sex the same way. You’re looking at this as something really special, I can tell you a majority of guys have probably experienced it. most people don’t use condoms for oral so at the very least, he’s likely experienced that.

    If a guy is looking for RMV 7+ and he considers you an 8, you will likely get some slack. If a guy is looking for RMV 8 and you’re a 7, you likely won’t. The best way to figure out if a guy is willing to wait is to figure out what type of guy he is by date 2. Bottom line, if you want a guy to wait, he has to be the type of guy willing to wait.

  • Fish

    @Mary

    Re: condoms in relationships
    Another point, again, assuming most women are on other forms of birth control, most guys will assume relationship = no condom. I only know of one woman who uses condoms in a relationship and its because she can’t go on the pill.

    Again, I think you’re looking at this as a value add, when really making the guy wear one in relationships if you’re on the pill is a detractor. Make the guy get an STD test if you are being monogamous. I’ve only used condoms in LTR once and I’ve never been married. I am of the mindset that if you are not giving benefits which are common, your guy knows he is incurring an opportunity cost by being with you.

  • MARY

    HereIAm June 24, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    @MARY
    The simpler point is this: I believe Susan advocates women to go after high beta men. But if you genderize the characteristics of a high beta man, Susan is advocating going after men who have some feminine characteristics. So there is in fact something good that comes from having both feminine and masculine traits.
    ___

    I’m here too! Could you define for me please what you mean by “feminine characteristics” and “masculine traits”, just so I’m clear? Possibly list 5 of each. Thanks.

    Fish , “How thick into dating? 2-3 dates? ”

    It varies from couple to couple. Susan has belabored this waiting game time and again. Some male readers here have continuously expressed that they don’t want to feel like a chump waiting a longer time than her previous partners did. But the fact remains that when a woman is serious about a guy, often times she will want to wait longer with him than she did with her non-serious previous partners. Sometimes men will want to delay sex with women they are serious about too.

    So, basically giving the casual sex partners the non-special condom-wrapped sex and giving the partners we are serious about the delayed, burning embers, exciting build up, condomless sex with passion and emotional investment is the way to go!

    That way our serious partners don’t have to feel like chumps, and they can feel special, because they are!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    cheching “For example, personally speaking: A confident man is sexy, but a cocky one is not. Being learned and cultured is great, but acting pretentious is a huge turn off.”

    I’m mostly kidding about the “game” thing. I was making a mockery of the fact that young women are often taught to think it’s “cool” to act “cocky and arrogant,” myself included when I was in my teens and early 20s (yes I used to cuss — it sounded funny instead of cool heh).

    I find that arrogance/cocky a turn-off most of the time, too, but if used sparingly (like sprinkles of seasoning), it can make a normally gentlemanly man rather funny. A guy without ANY edge to him is not sexy. But give a good guy some “swagger,” and suddenly he is that much more… spicy. :D

    For example, my husband doesn’t cuss often, but when he does cuss, it’s generally as a joke or to convey a point. He is normally not arrogant at all, but when he pretends to be, I usually get a kick out of it. I don’t try to pretend to be arrogant though, because I don’t think it would make me more attractive to him. But when he does, it makes him more attractive to me. There is definitely nuance to this game stuff.

  • HereIAm

    I think there are other people here who buy into and know the beta characteristics more than I do but from doing a quick search I found: nurturing, caring, and capable of emotional connection.
    (http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/16/hookinguprealities/10-reasons-to-date-a-beta-male/).

    So you have a man being nurturing, caring, and capable of emotional connection which are often considered feminine traits.

  • Fish

    @Mary
    “That way our serious partners don’t have to feel like chumps, and they can feel special, because they are!”

    The way you’re positioning it, is unlikely to make the guy feel “better” about waiting. Your best bet is not to make a distinction, If you want to wait a month, wait a month. If a guy is willing to wait, he is but even bringing up any other guys and the behaviors with them will cause doubt in his mind.

    I don’t see any guy reacting “oh, you banged the last guy on date 3 with a condom and you want me to wait a month because I’m ‘special’ but you’ll do it without a condom with me. WOW!! I feel so special!!!” You’re more likely to get an “Uh huh, sure. . .” Bringing it up is a no-win situation. I just don’t see any conceivable way, from a guy’s point of view, that you are getting any kind of added value.

    If you as a woman want to do it because it makes you feel closer or you enjoy it more, go ahead. However I don’t see any guy seeing that proposition in a positive light.

  • MARY

    “So you have a man being nurturing, caring, and capable of emotional connection which are often considered feminine traits.”

    I’m glad I asked you to define. Those are not “feminine traits” – they are human traits.

    So much misunderstanding in communication occurs because we often fail to define our terms.

  • MARY

    “The way you’re positioning it, is unlikely to make the guy feel “better” about waiting. Your best bet is not to make a distinction, If you want to wait a month, wait a month. If a guy is willing to wait, he is but even bringing up any other guys and the behaviors with them will cause doubt in his mind. ”

    Well Fish, you missed all the convos here about how the guys feel it is a MUST to know their womens’ previous partner counts, whether those women bring it up or not.

    Those same guys feel it would be a chump-move to wait longer than the previous guys waited. They feel like they are being “used” somehow. Despite the fact that when a woman is serious about a man and wants him to be serious about her too, she will often want to wait longer to allow the relationship to solidify and for it not to be all about sex and nothing else.

    Therefore there has to be “something” that these types of guys get from her that the previous guys did not, in order for them not to feel like complete chumps.

    Raw dogging is the solution.

    If you’ve got a better idea (on how to not make these guys feel like chumps while they are in fact waiting longer because she really likes them more than she liked the other guys but somehow being liked more is not interpreted as something special by them), then please share!

  • Fish

    @Mary
    “Those same guys feel it would be a chump-move to wait longer than the previous guys waited. They feel like they are being “used” somehow.”

    So no condom sex is the light at the end of the tunnel? There is no way to make a guy not feel like a chump if he is pre-disposed to it, is what I’m saying. The same guy who thinks he’s a chump to wait has probably had no condom sex and thinks ‘Not only are you making a huge deal about sex, you’re making an even bigger deal about not using a condom.”

    I stand by what I said. It is NEVER a value add, but could detract. Why not just say you want to wait because you like him and want the relationship to be about more than sex and if he leaves, you’ve filtered him?

    As a guy, there really is no other way to say this. If you are dating someone of equivalent RMV and he’s waiting longer for sex, he IS a chump. Its simple market dynamics. If a guy is RMV 7 and he wants sex by 5 dates, if you are RMV 7 and unwilling to sleep with him by that time, by definition, he can replace you with someone who would (with 72% accuracy). If you REALLY like him and think he may be “the one” then odds are, he may be above your RMV and the odds are even better that he could replace you with someone better and sex sooner.

    Please explain to me how raw dogging it changes his opportunity cost at all or how it will make him feel like less of a chump? Its not special, its very common in this SMP. You’re not giving him anything he couldn’t get from someone else and he has no reason to believe you’ve never done it before. Effectively you are trying to manipulate the guy into being happy with what you’re willing to offer.

    As a guy, i’m telling you, no dice. Maybe Beta guy could chime in with his take on this situation. . .

  • HereIAm

    MARY, I think you are trying to argue with the wrong person. I don’t view those traits as feminine or masculine either – others take that view.

    I am an advocate of human beings growing up and mastering life and believe we have more to offer one another the more we do so. And growing up involves developing/owning/integrating various characteristics that help us adapt well in the world (which others may genderize). The point to Susan still stands @136 and @140.

  • MARY

    “Why not just say you want to wait because you like him and want the relationship to be about more than sex ”

    The guys here have said time and again they don’t like that because it makes them feel like chumps.

    I’m just trying to find a healthy compromise, a happy medium, if you will.

  • Fish

    @Mary
    Re: guys feeling like chumps

    I am probably not your target audience here. My N is around 50. It is rare for me to stick around beyond date 3 if there is no sex. I might even take disappear after date 2 if I don’t think there is going to be sex on date 3.

    Think about it this way. There are 2 types of guys (setting aside the alpha beta BS): Guys who want sex and see relationships as something that sort of comes with it and guys who want relationships and sex comes with it. If the first type of guy discovers you have had casual sex and won’t with him, you have become devalued, period. I can’t speak for the mindset of #2. Guy #1 is thinking “i want good sex, we are doing this dance so I can get a stable supply of sex.” He feels used and like a chump because you’ve given your asset away at a lower price. To say that it’s special or a better asset makes it worth the wait makes sense to you, not him.

    Guy #2 is wiling to wait because the relationship is the end to him. You want to filter for that guy if you want to wait for sex.

  • Fish

    @Mary
    “I’m just trying to find a healthy compromise, a happy medium, if you will.”

    I understand where you’re coming from. I’m trying to tell you best case, your “solution” isn’t better, worst case, its worse.

    I don’t have a better solution for you. I can only tell you that I dont believe that’s it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    HereIAm “capable of emotional connection.”

    That is definitely not a feminine/masculine trait, but a required trait of any normal, emotionally mature adult.

  • Anacaona

    @Fish
    We had a regular troll that change her names often. If you are entertained by her feel welcome to continue. But she is the same all the time nothing ever changes and soon she will start crapping where she is (maybe she is already I tend to ignore her). Gin Martini and me are going to open a charity drive “Help Plain Jane to get her meds and go live in Antartica with no Internet” in a few weeks. :D

  • HereIAm

    Hope,
    I’m guessing you didn’t read what I actually wrote or at least not the set. It goes:
    Me:136
    MARY: 138
    Me:140
    MARY: 143
    Me: 145
    MARY: 147
    Me: 150
    I think #136 and #150 will be particularly relevant.

  • Fish

    Thanks Ana :-)

  • MARY

    The solution isn’t for *me*, Fish. Its for the guys on here who feel like chumps when their girlfriends want to wait to have sex with them longer than they waited with other guys, because they like them more and want to get serious.

    I can’t tell you why they don’t feel special knowing they are liked more and taken more seriously, but they don’t.

    Go figure.

  • Esau

    Mary: “I can’t tell you why they don’t feel special knowing they are liked more and taken more seriously, but they don’t.

    Go figure.”

    Replace “special” above with something manifestly positive, like, say, “valued” or “good”, then this will plainly answer itself.

    I’m going out on a limb here — by maybe a millimeter — when I say that, for most men who want a sexual relationship, there is simply no way on earth to see delay of sex as a compliment of any kind. I can’t tell you why women can’t understand this obvious idea, but go figure.

    Really, this is quite deep and basic: men want their prowess to be recognized by others; and from eligible women they want that recognition to arrive the form of sexual desire on the woman’s part. Less sexual desire means less approval and recognition, period. So there is simply no way to sell “I have less desire for sex” as a form of “I hold you in high esteem”; the two concepts are completely, utterly opposed.

    If a woman wants to go down this line, her only hope is to sell “I want to wait longer than usual for sex” as an expression of “My sexual desire for you is especially high”. I don’t see, myself, how this can be made to work easily; but it is not plainly impossible, as the above equation is.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      for most men who want a sexual relationship, there is simply no way on earth to see delay of sex as a compliment of any kind.

      It is not a compliment to the man. When a woman is attracted to a man, she should delay sex until she is sure of a man’s intentions. The longer she waits, the less sure she is. If she is not attracted, it’s not happening at all, but that’s for him to figure out.

  • Esau

    Cheching at 129: “For example, personally speaking: A confident man is sexy, but a cocky one is not. Being learned and cultured is great, but acting pretentious is a huge turn off.”

    “Personally” means here that you are speaking about yourself, and only yourself, right? So, good for you. But, what would you say to these three questions:

    1. Do you think a very large majority of women would describe their tastes, personally, by saying exactly the same thing about themselves?

    2. Assuming the answer to 1. is “yes” (as I would certainly bet) then if we observe that a large number of men who get female attention are, in fact, cocky and/or pretentious (as I would also say is true), does it then follow that some large number of those women are either lying or don’t really understand themselves honestly? (Or we all mean different things by “cocky” and “pretentious”, in which case the whole statement is meaningless.)

    3. What assurance can you put forth, that you in particular are not among the self-deluded who do not know themselves? (I certainly wouldn’t accuse you of knowingly lying.) Keep in mind, that the same large majority of women mentioned above very likely also would say that they are sure they are not self-deluded (“No, really, he’s not like that; you just don’t know him the way I do”). What, if any, special qualification do you have, that we should believe you ahead of anyone else?

    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”, goes the old saying; and in today’s world, unfortunately, your claims qualify as extraordinary, even while being commonplace.

  • MARY

    ” Keep in mind, that the same large majority of women mentioned above”

    How are you arriving at a “majority” percentage of women? And where?

    What is your methodology? What sample size are we talking about? Again, in which geographical location and from which culture or cultures?

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “The cocky man gets girls who like cocky. The slightly unsure man fails to get girls who like confident.”

    Right. The unsure man also fails to get the girls who like cocky, so he has nothing. Something is better than nothing.

    Plus, what one woman sees as cocky, another might see as confident. There isn’t a consistent dividing line that separates out the “bad cockylikers” from the “good confidentlikers”. There is no acceptable level of cockiness that can be established a priori, that would correctly sort women out in the way you think.

    And almost no women like the shy ones.

    Chech has her preference, which is just fine. However, lots of women say it, but mean very different things.

    Dont respond MARY, Fish, it’s PJ again. Whatever seems reasonable on the surface is just a trap.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Plus, what one woman sees as cocky, another might see as confident.

      Exactly. Women vary in their need for dominant behavior.

      There isn’t a consistent dividing line that separates out the “bad cockylikers” from the “good confidentlikers”. There is no acceptable level of cockiness that can be established a priori, that would correctly sort women out in the way you think.

      There is. We know a lot about the traits of women who prefer men with cocky or “jerky” vibe.

      And almost no women like the shy ones.

      No woman likes timidity, true. But the handsome introvert will do very well for himself.

  • Gin Martini

    PJ: “If you’ve got a better idea (on how to not make these guys feel like chumps while they are in fact waiting longer because she really likes them more than she liked the other guys but somehow being liked more is not interpreted as something special by them), then please share.”

    I do. Have sex with a condom, in the early stages, and then switch over to another form of birth control when she proves she’s not batshit crazy and disease-free. Simple.

    Cajoling with raw-dog is a false choice, and a dicktease move. Dump.

    I’ve probably used condoms less than 50 times in my entire life, and have no real interest in starting. There are plenty of women on the pill, IUD, or have their tubes tied, to not care.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve probably used condoms less than 50 times in my entire life, and have no real interest in starting. There are plenty of women on the pill, IUD, or have their tubes tied, to not care.

      Once again, a very strange comment from a happily married father of three. Sounds like you’ve gone full-blown Open.

  • Man

    @Mary:

    I can’t tell you why they don’t feel special knowing they are liked more and taken more seriously, but they don’t.

    Mary, forget about this. Avoid talking about your past N, lest the guy gets paranoid and runs away, and show through actions your RESPECT and love for him. Be your best and move on if he is not reciprocating.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    As a guy, i’m telling you, no dice. Maybe Beta guy could chime in with his take on this situation. . .

    My position on casual sex is like my position on smoking, it’s best to stop before you start.

    Other than that, the best thing to do to make him not feel like a chump, is to make sure he isn’t a chump. If a relationship with you is so goddam awesome, make sure you are putting in effort to make the relationship awesome, especially the sex part.

    Man has the Respect post linked up above, make sure to re-read the 6 mistakes women make in bed post and NEVER do any of those.

    As for sexual experiences, I do not believe a young woman has actually had a varied and complete sex life, and if your only thought is raw-dogging, perhaps you need to spend some time over at lit erotica or something?

  • Man

    Man is checking out. Man has to retreat. Susan, I will keep an eye on your blog occasionally to check your progress/posts and let the discussions aside. Keep up the good work. All the best.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Man

      Ha, you’ve made that threat several times. Take care.

  • Man

    Ha, you’ve made that threat several times. Take care.

    Mrs. HUSsie and HUSsies are very pleasing and supportive and so Man is transforming himself and improving. He needs to retreat and is developing a new character, more positive, proactive, focused on self-development and mutually beneficial relationships with women… Haha. Take care.

  • JP

    “Mrs. HUSsie and HUSsies are very pleasing and supportive and so Man is transforming himself and improving. He needs to retreat and is developing a new character, more positive, proactive, focused on self-development and mutually beneficial relationships with women… Haha. Take care.”

    Can Man stop referring to Man in the third person?

  • JP

    “Once again, a very strange comment from a happily married father of three. Sounds like you’ve gone full-blown Open.”

    I just want him to use his old handle.

    Or change it to gin gimlet.

    Either would be fine with me.

  • Hope

    HereIAm, sorry if I misread you. I’m not sure what’s going on in this thread anymore.

    Man, all the best to you. May you find what you seek!

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “Sounds like you’ve gone full-blown Open.”

    No, you’re reading way too much into that statement. Nothing has changed.

    I observed that PJ’s strategy would not have cajoled me into accepting price discrimination or “commitment”, in the PAST, because there are plenty enough women who don’t.

    Geez. You assume a lot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I observed that PJ’s strategy would not have cajoled me into accepting price discrimination or “commitment”, in the PAST, because there are plenty enough women who don’t.

      Geez. You assume a lot.

      That may be because you spoke in the present tense.

  • Angelguy

    “I’m going out on a limb here — by maybe a millimeter — when I say that, for most men who want a sexual relationship, there is simply no way on earth to see delay of sex as a compliment of any kind. I can’t tell you why women can’t understand this obvious idea, but go figure.”

    I don’t see it as a compliment, even though being on HUS had helped me understand the reasons why.

    A woman can look at this in another way.
    If a guy was to say to you, you are the fifth woman I preposed to, and that numbers #1 to #4 were asked for marriage in 6-8 months before you.

    How would you react if he said he wanted to wait a year or year and half, because he thought you were “special”?

  • Hope

    Game is all about calibration… it’s a tool used with social acuity, not a sledgehammer that you beat people on the head with.

    Cocky funny for example is used sparingly, as a joke or as a response to a fitness test. Like the girl asks, “you think you’re so cool huh?” And he smirks, and instead of backing down, says, “yep, I’m a kind of a big deal.” Then he moves on to some other topic, instead of dwelling on it.

    Girl Game is similar in concept. You don’t go around with “game on” all the time. You apply it when the occasion rises. So he says “you’re kind of quiet,” and she responds, “not during certain times ;)” which is flirty, subtle and sexual all at once. Innuendo, but not overdoing it.

  • Hope

    Also, how to properly delay game for a woman. Never say “I want to wait.” Should say, “I can’t wait for…” and talk about how excited you are, how much you look forward to finally being physical, and build the anticipation psychologically. You may or may not know that men love the psychological build-up as well, and that the brain plays a big role in their sexual arousal.

    Take the time to get to know his triggers, fantasies, likes and turn-ons. Tell him what you want to do when you get to that stage. Let him know you just need some time to feel comfortable, because you need to have a strong emotional component to sex, so that it is passionate and all-consuming.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    If a guy was to say to you, you are the fifth woman I preposed to, and that numbers #1 to #4 were asked for marriage in 6-8 months before you.

    This analogy is incomplete.
    Imagine a rich man at the age of 23, who, every year, proposes to a woman for a one year relationship. And he buys huge, huge, huge rings, and takes her on resplendant trips across Europe, African Safaris, etc.

    Except he is losing money, so every time he does this, it’s a little less…maybe instead of a 4 week vacation hopping around Italy, it’s a 2 week in Berlin. Instead of a 6 carat ring, it’s a 5 carat ring, instead of Kate Upton, it’s Jessica Alba…
    Oh yeah, the girls all uniformly reject him, but they keep the rings, because he is such a nice guy he thinks they should keep them.

    By the time he gets to you?
    Standard middle class man. Proposes with a ring from a cracker jack box. He takes you to Mcdonalds for your anniversary. He assures you this has all made him a better man, to ignore the time he spends with his buddies while ignoring you crying because that’s just him “taking time for himself, whcih I never did before,” that he really loves you, blah blah blah

  • Hope

    More on waiting: don’t talk numbers. If you say “I don’t put out before the fourth date,” the guy will have a numerical deadline. I used to say, “every guy I’ve been with had been in love with me” and leave it at that. Then it’s pretty plain that if he didn’t see the possibility of love, it wasn’t going to happen. No casual.

    If you’ve been played before, say “I thought every guy I’ve been with loved me and cared about me, but some of them lied to me and hurt me. Are you planning to hurt me like that, too?” Being honest and vulnerable is extremely powerful, especially now with a lot of girls pretending to be tough and unflappable. You will get the truth this way.

  • Angelguy

    “This analogy is incomplete.
    Imagine a rich man at the age of 23, who, every year, proposes to a woman for a one year relationship. And he buys huge, huge, huge rings, and takes her on resplendant trips across Europe, African Safaris, etc.

    Except he is losing money, so every time he does this, it’s a little less…maybe instead of a 4 week vacation hopping around Italy, it’s a 2 week in Berlin. Instead of a 6 carat ring, it’s a 5 carat ring, instead of Kate Upton, it’s Jessica Alba…
    Oh yeah, the girls all uniformly reject him, but they keep the rings, because he is such a nice guy he thinks they should keep them.

    By the time he gets to you?
    Standard middle class man. Proposes with a ring from a cracker jack box. He takes you to Mcdonalds for your anniversary. He assures you this has all made him a better man, to ignore the time he spends with his buddies while ignoring you crying because that’s just him “taking time for himself, whcih I never did before,” that he really loves you, blah blah blah’

    @ADBG

    Thanks, that is a better analogy.

  • cheching

    @ Gin Martini

    You bring up a valid point. That explains why there seems to be an endless supply of cocky douchebags out there.

  • cheching

    Hope @ 144

    I agree. A little bit of edge and swagger in moderate doses can make a man more attractive.

  • Man

    Can Man stop referring to Man in the third person?

    I was not addressing you.

  • Hope

    ADBG and Angelguy, that’s a transactional analogy that makes a woman’s worth inversely proportional to her N, and a man’s worth proportional to his bank account. “I make X amount therefore I should have a girl with this N and rated at Y.”

    Yet guys don’t like gold diggers or to be seen as AT Me. Just like girls don’t like pump and dump lying cads or to be seen as walking vaginas. The analogy is perfect if you only see people as objects/means to an end though.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “No woman likes timidity, true. But the handsome introvert will do very well for himself.”

    Good to know.
    20% of men are handsome, 50% are introverts.

    I see a potential pitfall in this strategy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I see a potential pitfall in this strategy.

      I never said it was a strategy. I was taking issue with Gin Martini’s claim that close to zero women like shy men. Not true. I never mean to imply it was a sizable majority.

  • Man

    Man, all the best to you. May you find what you seek!

    Thanks, Hope. Always nice to know your thoughts. All the best.

  • Hope

    Phone auto-correct strikes again. Should be ATMs.

  • Laurel

    That study about feminine faces and guys’ preferences for STRs and LTRs*** I’d always heard that for a STR or especially for a VSTR, guys cared mainly about hotness of body, yeah, boobs & bottoms, and were willing to overlook a not so nice face. While for potential wives, prettiness of face was more important. And this makes sense to me.

    In my high school, several times I overheard guys talking about girls of the first kind with a kind of drooling disrespect***no doubt they seriously wanted to screw them but not anything more***in a way they didn’t usually talk about the prettier girls.

    So the study doesn’t really seem to fit with any of that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Laurel

      I think that “butterfaces” do OK for ONS, with the ever popular beer goggles providing plausible deniability the next day. Obviously, men will take the best they can get for casual, but that doesn’t speak to their real preference, just their willingness to compromise.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG/Angelguy

    High N women (and men) are more likely to cheat/divorce.
    No reason could ever provide more reason to disregard them as potential mates.

    As for how it feels, it only feels that way because the body natural wants to defend itself against harm.

    The low vs. high N individual is to fidelity/sustainability as the agreeable moderate T vs. high, disagreeable T is to encountering violence.

  • Hope

    Laurel, I have heard and encounters similar things as well, that guys care more about facial attractiveness for long-term relationships. I do wonder if make-up is a confounding factor in the study, where the more feminine faces are wearing make-up which signals short-term strategy to the guys, whereas the more masculine seeming female faces are less made up, which signals long term trustworthiness.

  • cheching

    Esau @ 160

    I said these were *personal* examples. I recognize that I’m an anomaly when it comes to most of this stuff, and I’m ok with that.

    I’m not looking for validation. I was just hoping that others could share their opinion on examples of antigame.

    Here’s the proof that you asked for:
    I invited a doctor friend to join my other friends and I for dinner. During the dinner conversation, one of my friends asked him what he did for a living. To which he responded, “I’m a doctor. Yeah it’s hard work saving lives. But, you know, I do what I can” – all while his arm was draped over the back of my chair. Seriously? My vagina was instantly as dry as the Sahara.

  • Gin Martini

    Love is great, Hope, but if she’s been “in love” 20 times, then it sort of loses meaning, doesn’t it? And, shouldn’t it be “we were in love”, while I’m at it? “He was in love with me” sounds like a one-way thing, by virtue of omission.

    The stuff about calibration you wrote is spot on, though.

    …More disturbing thoughts from a married father of three (perhaps this should be my signature).

  • JP

    “Can Man stop referring to Man in the third person?

    I was not addressing you.”

    :(

    You just hurt my squishy part inside of me.

    :(

  • JP

    “Love is great, Hope, but if she’s been “in love” 20 times, then it sort of loses meaning, doesn’t it? And, shouldn’t it be “we were in love”, while I’m at it? “He was in love with me” sounds like a one-way thing, by virtue of omission.”

    Isn’t another problem that “love” one of those vague words that means different things to different people.

  • Hope

    My husband and I have each “loved” three times, the last time with each other. The first two times were kind of messed up, as young love tends to be. Maybe because he knows the whole story, instead of the random things I say here, he never hit below the belt about my past, the way certain people online do. :p

  • JP

    “My husband and I have each “loved” three times, the last time with each other. The first two times were kind of messed up, as young love tends to be. Maybe because he knows the whole story, instead of the random things I say here, he never hit below the belt about my past, the way certain people online do. :p”

    I thought that you were just reflecting their love, rather than doing your own loving for (1) and (2).

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    It was not I that declared that rich men were more attractive, more socially dominant men more attractive, fitter men more attractive, taller men more attractive, etc.

    Because it was not I that declared it, it is also not my place to un-declare it, or declare the opposite.

    All we can do is observe the actions and statements of men and women and guess at what they value.

    Anyways, the point isn’t that the poor men is undeserving of love or the slut is undeserving of love. The point is that both people had a period of immense SMV and MMV. And as it declined, only then they did choose you, and yet give you an “inferior” relationship experience, while insisting that it means they truly love you.

    The point isn’t that they are “undeserving” love of, the point is that their actions and past cast doubt on them and whether they really love YOU.

    It doesn’t make you feel special, it makes you feel exactly the opposite.

    Because at the height of their power, they didn’t choose you, and now in their decline, they are choosing to treat you…well…inferior.

  • Man

    You just hurt my squishy part inside of me.

    Sorry. I thought you were somehow trying to play the White Knight.

  • JP

    “Anyways, the point isn’t that the poor men is undeserving of love or the slut is undeserving of love. The point is that both people had a period of immense SMV and MMV. And as it declined, only then they did choose you, and yet give you an “inferior” relationship experience, while insisting that it means they truly love you.

    The point isn’t that they are “undeserving” love of, the point is that their actions and past cast doubt on them and whether they really love YOU.

    It doesn’t make you feel special, it makes you feel exactly the opposite.”

    Didn’t Thackeray cover all this in Vanity Fair about 150 years ago?

  • Angelguy

    ‘that’s a transactional analogy that makes a woman’s worth inversely proportional to her N, and a man’s worth proportional to his bank account. “I make X amount therefore I should have a girl with this N and rated at Y.”

    @Hope

    That is exactly the point I was making in regards to another post about waiting. Mary mentioned about going “bare” as incentive for a Man to wait longer. Transaction whether its money or chasity is still looked at as an exchange.

    Your second comment I agree with:
    “The analogy is perfect if you only see people as objects/means to an end though.”

  • JP

    “You just hurt my squishy part inside of me.

    Sorry. I thought you were somehow trying to play the White Knight.”

    No.

    However, I did want you to stop reminding me of Bob Dole.

  • Emily

    >> “, “I’m a doctor. Yeah it’s hard work saving lives. But, you know, I do what I can”
    —–
    A line like that would depend a lot on the guy’s presentation, body language, facial expressions, tone of voice etc. Depending on the nuances, I could see myself being either amused or repelled.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I’m a doctor. Yeah it’s hard work saving lives. But, you know, I do what I can”

      Imagine someone saying this after the Boston Marathon. Total asshole.

      The only way I can see this working is if someone was being amusingly self-effacing – perhaps a doctor of literature, or maybe Dr. Dre. Perhaps a podiatrist. :)

  • Man

    However, I did want you to stop reminding me of Bob Dole.

    OK. That brings me back to #187. :) Don’t worry anyway.

  • Escoffier

    “Didn’t Thackeray cover all this in Vanity Fair about 150 years ago?”

    Not exactly. I assume you mean Dobbin. But that’s not quite how that all goes down.

  • JP

    “However, I did want you to stop reminding me of Bob Dole.

    OK. That brings me back to #187. Don’t worry anyway.”

    :(

    You hurt the squishy part inside of me again.

    That is not nice.

    :(

  • Hope

    ADBG, there’s a saying that goes, a fool and his money are soon parted. Lots of people are foolish and ignorant when young, men and women alike.

    I understand it can make you feel if a girl got physical with another guy faster, and here’s where I’ll explain the female mindset, and then focus on the male mindset.

    My “first love,” the ex of over 8 years, there were over two years in between my meeting him and any physical happenings, including kissing. I was willing to “wait” for him because of my feelings (which is a complicated story in itself, because he had lied to me for basically a decade). To a female, being willing to wait is a mark of emotional investment. I thought that my patient waiting would mean something, but I was young and delusional. Plus the ex thought I was sexually naive because I had a low N and wrote me off because I could not “put out” for those years. I had a low self esteem to begin with, and even though I was in my “prime” I didn’t have any kind of upper hand. I was a bind idiot.

    From a male perspective, let’s use my husband as an example, a girl who would jump into bed with him means she really loved him instead of only faking it or having second thoughts. He had a case where the girl said she wasn’t “sure,” which really upset him. There was another case in which the girl would not go all the way with him, and then went back to an ex-boyfriend whom she had already gone all the way with, and that was also infuriating for him. He would have been her boyfriend, if she wanted it. He was so pissed him off he went 100mph on the freeway, and was just lucky he didn’t get into a wreck. So he was not wanting to wait at all with me, and I reassured him over and over again I really wanted him, because I trusted that we really love each other.

    The tension is that the girl doesn’t want to be played for sex first, and the guy doesn’t want to be played for his emotions first. For both males and females, however, the toll of having your heart be broken is worse than adding +1 to N. This is why the guy pushes for sex, because his mental calculus is correct in guessing that she is less likely to break his heart after having sex with him… because it means she is more invested, that she likely really wants him instead of LJBFing him. This is also why the girl is reluctant to have sex, because her instinct is telling her that he is more likely to break her heart if he hits it and quits it, maybe because she’s not as good in bed as he likes, or he’s just playing her and using her for sex, due to the fact that guys can and do “slum it” for sex.

    This is the primary dynamic of youth, and we carry these dynamics into adulthood. Some people decide that it’s more important to have hot sex than worry about love, ie the unrestricted, players and people with very high N. These people do not seek love first and foremost, because they don’t want to deal with heartbreak. Ironically, it is the restricted men and women who look for love but who have been burned that get into the wait/delay/price discrimination wars, because they don’t want to get hurt like they got hurt in their youth, and they want to hold out for the other party to “give in” first — the guy wants the girl to give sex first, and the girl wants the guy to give commitment first.

    How do you break this tension? The way I found was total honesty. It is absolutely scary to put your heart out there like that, and yeah I’ve been spurned, more than once. But it’s better than the alternative, which is never knowing whether or not someone really cares about you, and never letting someone you care about know how much you care.

  • Hope

    Also, here are the sexes thinking of how they would like to be made to feel special, and wondering why the other sex doesn’t feel that way:

    She says, “I will wait for sex with you! Why don’t you feel special?”

    He says, “I will not wait for sex with you! Why don’t you feel special?”

    The thing that is missing is that neither party is revealing anything about the heart, only sex.

  • cheching

    @Emily

    I think it would have been endearing if he was joking, and humbly downplaying his job. But nope, he was being dead serious. His arm draped over the back of my chair was the cherry on top. I couldn’t wait to get the hell out of there.

    Who knows, maybe this stuff works on someone more easily impressed?

  • Hope

    Finally, the game part, which could be used for good or for evil.

    The girl says, “I can’t wait to feel you inside me! I want you so badly it hurts. Every fiber of my being is attracted to you. You are all I want, and I need to know if you feel the same way.”

    The guy says, “I will wait for you patiently as long as you need, because you are all I want. I will never hurt you, but if you don’t feel the same way I understand and will respect your space.”

    And yes, my husband and I said versions of this stuff to each other. Don’t laugh. It works, if both people are sincere, and have a little bit of “game.”

  • Vitor

    @Hope:

    And yes, my husband and I said versions of this stuff to each other. Don’t laugh. It works, if both people are sincere, and have a little bit of “game”.

    Interesting. But then I am curious: what happened? Did you wait?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    No major disagreement on this end. We’re both playing for the same team, remember? ;)
    Most of the women here grok why the price discrimination thing is bothersome to men-folk, I was just trying to refine the anaology our new poster was giving.
    But you’ve given me yet another one!
    A slut who tells a man she will not have sex with him because he is so special, is like a guy telling a girl he will not go on a date with her unless she puts out.

    BUT, that means he really likes her, that just makes her even more special, and he hopes she will put out, because he really likes her and just needs that exxxxttttrrraaa incentive to go the distance, IE, have a relationship.

    “Price discrimination” strikes at least some of us on some level as extremely manipulative and insulting.

    Anyways, I agree with you. Honesty. Openness. Emotional engagement. I will also add in solid action and affection for the other person, so they have actual reason to believe you are invested in them, rather than just empty words.

    This is why I suggested that our hypothetical high-N woman re-read the “Six Mistakes women make in bed” post, so that she NEVER makes those mistakes, and is reassuring her man that she is, indeed, into him.

    Much better than “raw dogging” serving as a substitute.

  • Gin Martini

    Not trying to hit below the belt, Hope, just pointing out a possible problem with vague statements like that, if some reader were to take your advice.

    I was honest about my past, and so was my wife, and it never occurred to either of us to try to obfuscate, hand-wave, or hide it. Further, it wasn’t an interrogation – we were genuinely interested in each other’s pasts, and that was just one of thousands of things we talked about.

    I never thought about the “less likely to break my heart”, as the reason to push for sex. Too much experience and foresight, so that certainly was not me. If that were the true, I would have had a much higher N in college, and been a lot less lonely. In fact, I didn’t push for sex, at all, if I was unsure of her.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I was taking issue with Gin Martini’s claim that close to zero women like shy men. Not true. I never mean to imply it was a sizable majority.”

    But thats not what you rebuked it with.
    A woman liking a man because he is handsome tells us little about her opinion of his introversion. It merely tells us she likes handsome men. She could like him because of or in spite of his introversion.

    Or IOW, concluding that woman will like a trait because the people containing said trait can get attention from women when having a different trait tells us nothing about the first trait.
    (You do this a lot when using looks as the second trait btw.)

    —————–

    Simpler to say that 50% of men are I, 90% of men get married. Therefore (at least) 4 in 5 introverted males are getting loved by some woman.

    *Crosses fingers and hope he didn’t screw up basic math.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Or IOW, concluding that woman will like a trait because the people containing said trait can get attention from women when having a different trait tells us nothing about the first trait.

      I was actually responding to something I see happening a lot among readers.

      “I am shy and not very attractive.”

      Conclusion: Women don’t like shy men.

      “I lost 40 lbs., got really fit, got some new clothes and a good haircut. Now women are much more interested.”

      Conclusion: Women like attractive men.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You screwed up the math.

    If 90% of men are married and 50% of men are introverts, then at least 40% of men must be both married and introverted.

    That’s 40/50=80%

  • JP

    “I never thought about the “less likely to break my heart”, as the reason to push for sex. Too much experience and foresight, so that certainly was not me. If that were the true, I would have had a much higher N in college, and been a lot less lonely. In fact, I didn’t push for sex, at all, if I was unsure of her.”

    Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have dated anybody I met in college.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @ADBG

    Lokland didn’t screw up. 4/5 = 40/50. He (and you) are saying that in the worst case for I men that all the E’s marry, or IOW, 50 of the 90% married are E’s, leaving 40/50 or 4/5 I’s getting married.

    And, I’m not making any claim about the 90% eventually marrying being the right figure, just going with the hypothetical value Lokland used.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Well, f. You are right. ADBG fail.

  • Gin Martini

    Well, it’s true. We have no interest in using condoms, in the past, and to this very day. And, if I were suddenly a widower, I imagine PJ’s carrot still wouldn’t change my mind one bit, due to “market conditions”.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @ADBG

    No worries. :D

    I have HanSolo fails, from time to time. ;) Even R2D2 does. Hopefully, it keeps us a bit humble and more careful for the next time.

  • Laurel

    Catching up with some earlier comments** I’d seen something before about semen helping women to deal with stress better, but the part about making us better at “cognitive tasks” is a new one to me.

    I wonder how long the effect lasts (assuming it’s real, of course)..should women in important jobs that require quick thinking be sure to have sex with their husbands or boyfriends the morning before the big decision meeting or the spaceflight or whatever? Or would a couple days before be close enough?

    A little depressing to learn that in addition to the various other heartaches, my not being in a relationship right now also makes me dumber..

  • J

    I’ve probably used condoms less than 50 times in my entire life, and have no real interest in starting. There are plenty of women on the pill, IUD, or have their tubes tied, to not care.

    A great strategy in a disease-free world. In the one we actually live-in, not so much.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Vitor “Interesting. But then I am curious: what happened? Did you wait?”

    We waited, in no small part due to the fact that we met while playing a video game and lived in different states that were over a thousand miles apart. We spent almost two months talking before meeting in person for the first time, and then about another month before we met again, and another month or so before I moved to be with him. I do not know what would have happened otherwise, since it was impossible that we would have met in person first.

  • HereIAm

    @Susan

    I think the actual point I’m trying to make is being missed so I’ll try again.

    In the simplest form: (Strategy #1)
    Some folks consider certain actions and traits to be female/feminine/male/masculine.
    This divides the available traits/actions one can express by “gender”.
    And by traits I don’t mean anatomy. This is about actions or expression.
    Then (this is the crucial bit) they try to limit their actions/expressions to the gender they wish to embody.

    I disagree that this is a good strategy and advocate expressing the traits that help you adapt and flourish in life regardless of how those traits may be labeled by some. (Strategy #2) And I pointed out the “inherent” nature of growing and maturing as a human being involves integrating and displaying ostensibly disparate traits (which some may label masculine and feminine).

    I don’t care which trait someone labels feminine/masculine. Only whether or not that labeling is being used to subset the traits available to them/you.

    At post #127 you wrote:
    Brilliant. Nothing good comes out of acting like the opposite gender. Nurture the differences!

    While I may be misunderstanding what you meant here, I am concerned that your statement speaks to Strategy #1 above. In fact the “nurture the differences” would suggest a more extreme version of Strategy #1.

    And I think Strategy #1 can be really detrimental to a person and to society as a whole. So I’ll stop here to see where things stand.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HereIAm

      I really don’t mean to suggest that people should restrict their behaviors or self-censor based on traditional gender roles. I agree that we should encourage the fullest form of human expression from everyone.

      However, in this SMP we have a surfeit of that, IMO. Feminized men and masculinized women. For example, many women ask me how to be feminine – they have no idea how to behave in a way that will be perceived as female. Men here report having had the alpha drummed out of them their entire childhoods. In this SMP, I think we need to embrace our biological sex differences rather than feel shamed by them.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    A great strategy in a disease-free world. In the one we actually live-in, not so much.

    We should probably be working on limiting this disease transmission.

    Unfortunately, since this would require judgement of people’s sexual histories, will never happen. Much better to have the problems of the 1500s.

    I suspect this is why the Catholic Sex Abuse scandal was allowed to explode and the income disparity is so high: The ruling elites demand a Martin Luther and peasant revolts.

    Hey, but blacks and whites can marry now, so it’s all better… :)

  • Hope

    HereIAm, I think you’re taking issue with semantics. There are differences in what men and women tend to find attractive, and by emphasizing these differences, one becomes more attractive to the opposite sex. This is of course not talking about the LGBT community, but even there, the idea of “butch” vs. “lipstick” lesbians exist, meaning masculine vs. feminine girls, with most straight guys generally preferring the feminine girls. I do not think this is controversial.

    Admirable human traits have nothing to do with the little mannerisms, personalities and behaviors that make up sexually attractive masculine vs. feminine traits. If you really want to disagree with this, take it up first with the transsexuals who know all about this subject, because they live it and feel it differently from social and biological expectations.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “”Hope @ 144

    I agree. A little bit of edge and swagger in moderate doses can make a man more attractive.””

    This is likely to get a regular guy’s back hairs up. Can’t help it. Sort of like a boner. Just happens. Back in the day, and not so far back as that, it shames me to recall, I’ve gone from leaning against the wall to getting in some clown’s way. It was the edge and swagger that did it. And I like to think I’m civilized. Actually, I’m normal. In fact, my other name is Legion.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    You have used the term “feminized men” a number of times. We have discussed various ways men could do their man thing better, but I’ve not seen a discussion of “feminized men”;what that is, specifically, and what part of less feminizing would be appropriate, as this is not the wild west nor the dark ages, most places.
    Tried to find a poem by Robert Graves I read years ago lamenting that we no longer have stories of quailing–some euphemism for women or lady parts–“stormed by enormous yards”. Not sure where those stories were when he knew of them, and in places where the sun isn’t all that bright, I expect they’re still being told.
    But, anyway, what? More ravishing?
    Not taking “no” for an answer?
    Being cagey enough to know when “no” doesn’t mean “no’?
    Something else?
    Self confidence so you don’t really give a rodent’s south end about what a woman thinks of you?

    Happened to be thinking of something else today and then it occurred to me that it might apply. Or it might apply in that it’s irrationally irrelevant.
    Years ago, driving “up north” with my family, we saw a pickup truck rolled in the quite wide median. My dtr, who was driving, pulled onto the shoulder. My son–maybe nineteen–and I started tearing through the snow toward the truck. Stuff was flying into the air. “I don’t want to go into a burning cab,” I had breath to say. Turned out to be steam from snow on the hot exhaust system.
    So, in about a minute, there were a dozen guys on scene. I noted they/we all had our hockey together. Got the folks out watching for spinal injuries. One of the guys lowering them from the top–side–of the cab reminded others to watch out for the hot exhaust. Had his head in the game. We got them parceled out to various cars so they could stay warm, they’d been traveling in shirtsleeves, and generally took care of business.
    Things wound down and I was talking to the young woman who’d been driving. Looked to me as if the wrecker who showed up could just pull them to the pavement and the thing was drivable. I noted she shivered. The others had left, so I looked at our car and made a “T” with my hands–my son’s name starts with “T”–and he hopped out and came back.
    I braced the door of the cab while he reached in–he’s 6’5″ and has a long reach–and we got the folks’ jackets out.
    That’s men.
    As I have been nosing around in earlier posts, when men are like this, peacocking and pretending seem pretty lame, and wanting and reacting to peacocking and pretending seems even lamer.
    I don’t expect any of us had had a class in this stuff.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      You have used the term “feminized men” a number of times. We have discussed various ways men could do their man thing better, but I’ve not seen a discussion of “feminized men”;what that is, specifically, and what part of less feminizing would be appropriate, as this is not the wild west nor the dark ages, most places.

      When I use the term I am referring to a process of indoctrination where we essentially shame boys for being male from an early age. Behavioral norms in elementary school are appropriate for girls. Physicality of any kind is not tolerated, and rather than allowing boys to resolve conflicts in their own way, which might include angry words, we force them to “hug it out.” They are punished for having “ants in their pants” and rewarded for supplication to the teacher. They do not have enough opportunities for physical play in the school day. We give them too much Ritalin.

      At the same time that we are chastising them for calling out the answer in math class without raising their hand first, we are praising the girl in the same class who is willing to be assertive in the presence of males. We tell her she is so strong, and smart and special, and she should never allow herself to be bested by any man. The girl who likes computer science is heralded, and nurtured. The boy who likes computer science is ignored – no special attention for him.

      I believe the lopsided sex ratio problem can be traced to kindergarten in the American education system.

  • Sai

    @Fish
    Thanks, I’ll think about your idea.

    To all the male posters: what words would you most like to hear from a woman who is (seems) interested in you?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sai.
    For me, even serious snuggling up, uninvited, didn’t work.
    Can’t help you with this one.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/evolutionary-incentives-why-women-are-going-for-badboys-and-players-instead-of-stable-providers HanSolo

    @Sai

    Assuming I’m interested in her (to some degree) then I would like to hear that she loves spending time with me, loves talking with me, loves kissing me, loves having sex with me and wants to be there to support me.

    Of course, those don’t all need to come at once but to know that she wants me, admires me, loves me and won’t abandon me if I don’t measure up to every possible fantasy will make me want to be the best I can be and treat her amazingly.

    That’s one man’s list. Others will differ but probably have some things in common too.

  • MARY

    Someone: ” or most men who want a sexual relationship, there is simply no way on earth to see delay of sex as a compliment of any kind. ”

    Susan: “It is not a compliment to the man. When a woman is attracted to a man, she should delay sex until she is sure of a man’s intentions. The longer she waits, the less sure she is. If she is not attracted, it’s not happening at all, but that’s for him to figure out.”

    – It IS compliment if the woman is delaying sex because she feels more for this man than any of her past men, and wants to take things slow so as to build up genuine romance and emotional relationship with him.

    Many people (not just women either) feel that when you jump in the sack right off the bat with someone you feel has long term mate potential for, something is lost.

    You talked about that yourself right here on this very blog, Susan.

    J June 25, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    I’ve probably used condoms less than 50 times in my entire life, and have no real interest in starting. There are plenty of women on the pill, IUD, or have their tubes tied, to not care.

    A great strategy in a disease-free world. In the one we actually live-in, not so much.
    _________________

    Its not a “great strategy” even in an imaginary disease-free utopia. The Pill and IUDs both come with very serious, and frequent, health risks.

    Condoms are the only form of artificial birth control that do not come with serious and frequent health risks.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ““I am shy and not very attractive.”
    Conclusion: Women don’t like shy men.”

    No. Its more that an extroverted but ugly guy can still do well with women (the hottest women I’ve ever known slept with the ugliest but most outgoing guy I’ve ever known) whereas an introverted one cannot.

    It seems quite obvious that introversion is a disadvantage in the attraction game. OTOH, in the sustainability game its king.

    Tradeoffs.

    None of that changes that it is a trait independent of looks.

  • MARY

    “It seems quite obvious that introversion is a disadvantage in the attraction game. OTOH, in the sustainability game its king.”

    How would it be king in the sustainability game? Less likely to cheat?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    I get the ed thing. I frequent an ed blog from time to time.
    But how does that manifest itself maybe twenty years after kindergarten?
    What does it look like in the SMP? In dating? In guys walking down the street?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But how does that manifest itself maybe twenty years after kindergarten?
      What does it look like in the SMP? In dating? In guys walking down the street?

      In my view, by shaming masculinity at an early age, we’re essentially beating it out of boys. They grow up without a clear sense of what it is, and their identity is compromised by the gender-neutral indoctrination. This isn’t a problem for girls, whose interests dictate the norms and have no difficulty complying with them.

      Related is the long-term effect of the Women’s Movement, which has led to many males being confused about their proper role in society.

  • Vitor

    @Hope:

    Thanks for sharing your experience. I was reading some of your comments on this thread and they ring a bell for me in that there seems to be a specific kind of “game” (if we may call it this way) for guys and girls who are into finding a meaningful relationship.

    If you’ve been played before, say “I thought every guy I’ve been with loved me and cared about me, but some of them lied to me and hurt me. Are you planning to hurt me like that, too?” Being honest and vulnerable is extremely powerful, especially now with a lot of girls pretending to be tough and unflappable. You will get the truth this way.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan:
    Asking differently: If we see a feminized man age 25, how would the feminization be manifested compared to a 25-yr.-old fifty years ago?
    How would we tell the difference?
    What about the feminization would strike a woman of the same age as a negative attractor?

  • MARY

    Regarding my raw-dog strategy, men who don’t feel valued if women want to wait longer with them than they did with their ex-non-serious partners, and all that jazz, I’m quoting Susan here from her “Tough Call: Sex Before Commitment?” blog from around 2 years ago;

    1. Early sex, i.e. date three or sooner, means that the parties don’t know each other well yet. They have a good read on chemistry, but probably just a superficial read on character, relationship history, etc. It’s possible that both people are on the same page, but there’s a high risk of subsequent complications.
    2. The act of sex makes many women feel more emotionally invested. Even if a woman is looking for a long-term relationship, if she has sex before monogamy, she may be having sex before she actually knows whether she would even want a relationship with this particular man. After sex, she may feel attached, even if she might not have chosen him otherwise.
    3. Some men push for early sex with zero intention of forming a relationship. According to Amber Madison, 35% of men admit to lying to women about their relationship intentions just to get sex.
    4. Some men push for early sex in the belief that without that level of sexual aggression, they are unlikely to foster enough attraction to get a relationship commitment from the woman in time.
    5. Many men will test for sex early, but if they get it, the woman goes into the slut box rather than the girlfriend box.
    6. Many men will reward a woman for early sex if she can convince them that they are the exception to the rule, that they are truly the only man she could ever do this with.
    7. Many men will assume that if a woman turns down early sex, she “just isn’t that into” him.
    8. Some men think casual sex is totally OK, and that a woman’s delaying sex signals emotional issues, or discomfort with her sexuality. They may also believe it often signals a low sex drive.
    9. Some men happily commit to women they have first night sex with. Even if the odds are against it, there’s a potential opportunity cost to rejecting those men.

  • MARY

    Susan,
    “In my view, by shaming masculinity at an early age, we’re essentially beating it out of boys. They grow up without a clear sense of what it is”

    – They aren’t the only ones. Its seems all of us here on this blog also don’t know exactly what it is. What is “masculinity”?

    Can anyone name 5 personality traits that are exclusively masculine?

    This should be interesting.

  • J

    @ADBG

    Unfortunately, since this would require judgement of people’s sexual histories, will never happen. Much better to have the problems of the 1500s.

    So, you’re nostalgic for the Black Plague??

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mary.
    I don’t know about “exclusively”. Strikes me that it’s a matter of proportion in one sense. Physical courage is required of guys and of women, too, I expect, but men are presumed to have it while women are praised for it as if it’s not standard issue. The lack, of course is reversed. Nobody says anything about a woman bailing on a situation but men would be scorned.
    So some things are required and some things are required in higher, or lower, proportions.
    My question is what a feminized man looks like at age twenty-five. What of his good and bad points, presumably the bad points, would be the result of being feminized while others are the result of having bad points?
    I get how society treats boys, but I don’t see what the results are.
    What aspects of a feminized man’s personality and self-presentation would a woman see which are the result of being feminized? Which would be positive and which negative for many or most women in the SMP?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My question is what a feminized man looks like at age twenty-five. What of his good and bad points, presumably the bad points, would be the result of being feminized while others are the result of having bad points?
      I get how society treats boys, but I don’t see what the results are.

      I don’t think this is something a woman sees when she spots a man on the street. This is manifested in the lack of motivation we see today among young males – the “end of men” phenomenon so many have written about. It takes the form of adolescence extended into the late 20s, and the failure to become a productive member of society.

  • Lok

    “It takes the form of adolescence extended into the late 20s, and the failure to become a productive member of society.”

    I think its a bit unfair to call them failures for not being a PMOS.
    This is the society that has basically been cruel and unjust to them since they were four years old.

    Having a problem with the dog for biting you after you smack it with a newspaper everyday for 10 years is lunacy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think its a bit unfair to call them failures for not being a PMOS.
      This is the society that has basically been cruel and unjust to them since they were four years old.

      Having a problem with the dog for biting you after you smack it with a newspaper everyday for 10 years is lunacy.

      I didn’t say they were to blame. I blame society for failing boys.

  • Lok

    @Susan

    I think its a bit unfair to call them failures for not being a PMOS.
    This is the society that has basically been cruel and unjust to them since they were four years old.

    Having a problem with the dog for biting you after you smack it with a newspaper everyday for 10 years is lunacy.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jeez, Susan, I didn’t think it was going to be this difficult.

    “”I don’t think this is something a woman sees when she spots a man on the street. This is manifested in the lack of motivation we see today among young males – the “end of men” phenomenon so many have written about. It takes the form of adolescence extended into the late 20s, and the failure to become a productive member of society.

    What about lack of motivation and extended adolescence is connected to being feminized? It’s lousy, it’s possibly connected to the everybody goes to college theme of public ed, but what is feminized about it? Would we look at women and see lack of motivation and extended adolescence?

    So if a woman is seeing a guy, dating early, at work or in school or someplace, what is she going to see that is from being feminized that she wouldn’t have seen fifty years ago?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s a tough topic to address, Richard, especially since I wasn’t around 50 years ago.

    Here’s something to think about. In “I am Charlotte Simmons,” frat douche-bag Hoyt Thrope considers the social role of frats early on in the book. He concludes that, god help us, if we ever have another world war, the only place to get officers, outside of the military academies, would be the Frats.

    And that slimy son-of-a-bitch was probably right. He may have been a giant douche-bag, but his frat had a huge amount of camradiere, and he led them, and they covered for each other, and they supported each other, and he dove into a fight against a lacrosse player to back his boys up.

    I was in a “fraternity,” but it was a co-ed frat, so it was more a standard business co-ed group or whatever. After the two guys that founded the frat left, the only people in charge were girls. Alllllll girls.
    The guys just didn’t care much.
    I remember at my “interview” the board asked me what leaderhsip position I wanted. I was dumb-founded. Me? LEADING?
    So I took a mid-level position. didn’t run for any of the offices becuase I didn’t feel it was my place. Even in that, there were almost no guys, and most of the others were ex-mil.
    Some of the other organizations on campus did have some male leadership, but only the accounting and the finance organization, and a lot of the finance organization were Asian immigrants. There was one guy “leading” there for a while, until he disappeared…apparently he got thrown into jail when he visited Mexico.
    Woops!
    These guys just have no sense of direction, ambition, or leadership.

    The idea that any of these guys could assist in a roll-over is mind-boggling. One of my coworkers tires popped off his car. All the 20 something guys sat there and stared at it like it was the worst thing in the world to ever happen. The guy it happened to said he just wanted to get drunk and go home.
    Like, seriously? Okay, it’s not a fun thing, but it’s not like your mom died.
    Any set-back to them and it’s like deer in head-lights.

    I don’t see a lot of these guys too focused on developing career, either, and when they do, it’s like that scene from office space, where they have illict money, decide they should “launder” it, cheer how great their idea is, and then realize not one of them has a clue what “money laundering” actually means.
    I don’t know, I guess I should network, whatever that means…
    I don’t know, I guess I should get a MBA…
    I don’t know, I guess I should try getting a CPA…

    It does not help that, by and large, the management at all their companies sucks. Employees need to be developed, not just directed to do busy-work, but middle management seems as clueless about that as these guys are clueless about their careers.

    I know one guy. Was a temp here. We had two open positions for full-time jobs. The manager was hinting at several of us that she would like to consider him for a job. We bothered him for months about it. Still didn’t apply.
    Dumb-ass.

    Going beyond that:
    Giving back to the community? Hostile attitude. “Maybe we should do a river clean-up day. Maybe we should a habtitat for humanity day. Maybe we should read to children,” ADBG says. *Crickets*
    “hey ADBG, are you guys going out drinking tomorrow? Is that girl going to be there?”
    Dude, you suck with girls. You all suck with girls. She asked me back to her place yesterday. SHE DOESN’T WANT YOU.
    But yes we are, so come along if you like.

    Diversity of interests? No. These guys think “Renaissance Men” are gay or dumb or both. I have one group of friends that only watches sports, and another group of friends that only watches the Sci-Fi network, and they each think the other are total losers, and never cross over.
    I have one friend that has no introduce in getting together to do anything besides bike rides, for instance.
    My brother does nothing but play video games, and when he is at work, he has a computer program set up to play the video game for him.
    Then of course there are the guys that do nothing but club all weekend and nothing but work out during the week.

    Managing finances…oh god, I am not going there.

    Drive and follow-through. Non-existent. I have one buddy that has been talking about moving out of his parents for 2 years. Still hasn’t happened.

    The idea of looking your best is present only in the small sub-set of clubbing men, who take it to the extreme.

    With girls? Terrible. Most of them refuse to even approach a girl, I can count the number they have hit on in “normal day-time” on zero fingers, all of the, combined, over the past 8 years, which means I am infinite times more “experienced” at it than they.
    Nor do they adopt a playful demeanor, full of banter, towards the girls in the social circle. I do. The results speak for themselves, the girls are flirty with me and sometimes outright aggressive and ignore them.

    I am sure I could go on, but I really should do some work.

    Note: fathers do not do a good job encouraging sons.
    Recent example: my mechanical skills are not great, but my friend is quite the gear-head. Figured it would be a fun summer activity to rehab my dad’s old motorcycle.
    “Oh no, I am going to have your uncle do that”
    Thing had not moved in 2 decades.
    In the 2 years since having that conversation…has moved slightly, because the earth has ever so gently changed its axis.

    I do see a tiny number of men that have a good number of these traits. They are almost all econ guys that were nerdy in college.

    Women should plan accordingly.

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG
    Sheesh. Okay, a substantial cohort of young guys is useless and thinks becoming real-world competent is kind of icky.
    There are lots of issues here.
    BTW, are you on the coast?

    However, my question was about the feminization of men.
    Being useless isn’t the kind of thing women are going to claim as a characteristic which men have taken up, or had beaten into them.
    What about sucking at dealing with women is a result of being feminized?

    My son and his friends are hugely capable. All college grads, working in finance, engineering, so forth. My son has done major work on redoing part of the two homes he’s lived in. Electric, carpentry, etc, with help from his buddies.
    My son in law, ditto.
    As it happens, many of them were Greek. Might be a factor.
    A lot of my OCS buddies were Greek, come to think of it. Not a majority, but a bunch, and including team sports at college and high school level is sort of leading to the same place.
    I hope you’re seeing an outlying example.
    But what about them is the result of feminization?

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares/ HanSolo

    @Richard

    I think that one of the ways it shows up is in girls postponing relationships to focus on career but a lot of guys in high school or college would like a relationship but the girls aren’t interested, at least not in them.

    50-100 years ago, women were much more conditioned by the herd to want relationships and proactively put themselves in positions so that men could propose such relationships.

    Today, with feminism beating it into many young women’s minds that career is of greatest importance, the young men still wanting relationships are left a bit out in the cold for a good ten years or so until these high achiever women start to think a reln. might be good, in their late 20’s or later.

    So, on this issue, perhaps the boys didn’t become more feminized, but the relative desire for a relationship shifted from how it was shared fairly equally 100 years ago to now where in some surveys it appears that for young men they want relationships somewhat more than the young women.

    And since having a relationship is often seen as a feminine value (after all, men just want to fuck like tomcats, right? /sarc), then these young men get perceived as too feminine, just for wanting a relationship and for acting romantically. A lot of young women DO punish young men for acting too romantically whereas that would have been welcomed 100 years ago.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares/ HanSolo

    @Richard

    Also, boys are taught to sit still and not fight and to never make girls feel uncomfortable. They’re also given the message that their sexuality is bad and that they are potential creeps, rapists and pervs.

    This all tends to stifle boys’ and, later, men’s masculinity. And a lack of masculinity will likely be perceived as femininity. See Buena Vista’s comment about how boys are treated in school and a lot of the activities and ways of learning that bring out more masculine sides in boys have been eliminated.

    Boys and men are taught in some spheres to get in touch with their feelings and be more expressive, a typically feminine attribute.

  • MARY

    Susan, “This is manifested in the lack of motivation we see today among young males – the “end of men” phenomenon so many have written about. It takes the form of adolescence extended into the late 20s, and the failure to become a productive member of society.”

    But Susan your idea of “productive member of society” is becoming a corporate drone with a big mortgage in the suburbs. It is colored by your own university experience, career and upper middle class lifestyle.

    So what if men don’t want to do all that?

    Hansolo,
    “Also, boys are taught to sit still and not fight”

    Jesus H! They are in school for Cripes sake. Of course they have to sit still and not fight. My god if you want your son to act a fool and fight in school I suggest you move your family to Hunt’s Point or Brownville where they can fight in school – with guns – all day!

    “They’re also given the message that their sexuality is bad and that they are potential creeps, rapists and pervs.”

    – They are given the message to help prevent rapes and assaults, by doing something if they see one.

    “This all tends to stifle boys’ and, later, men’s masculinity”.

    – How does it follow that sitting still, paying attention in class, doing one’s studies and over all taking education seriously as well as being on the alert for potential sexual assaults in their environment is “stifling boys and mens masculinity.” ?

    “Boys and men are taught in some spheres to get in touch with their feelings and be more expressive”

    – What? You mean otherwise boys wouldn’t have feelings, or be aware of them if they did, and they would and should repress them?

    “a typically feminine attribute.”

    – Having feelings, identifying them and expressing them is a typically human attribute

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares/ HanSolo

    School for boys should be a mix of boy scouts, fun chemistry experiments and competitive learning games. No sitting still allowed! EVER!!!!! :)

  • MARY

    “School for boys should be a mix of boy scouts, fun chemistry experiments and competitive learning games. No sitting still allowed! EVER!!!!!”

    How come Asian boys and many other boys around the world have no problem sitting still and mastering their studies? Why is it just a certain type of white and black American boy?

    Go on with yo’ bad self as all these other boys grow into men and take your jobs.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Richard,

    I would not necessarily say they are feminine. That wouldn’t be fair to them. Perhaps “femininzing” is not the correct word.

    Inhibiting their masculinity is perhaps the better concept. Extended adolesence.

    Who wants to date a little boy?

    On the other hand, dating a psychologically immature girl? No problem. She has a vagina.

    You just don’t marry her.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Also, not on a coast. In Chicago. Which is kinda coastal but we have a lot of the Midwest values still “infecting” us.

    These guys are essentially boys, but I don’t blame them. Men are created by conflict and challenge, by passion and progress.

    Society aint giving them that. It’s also giving them a VERY perverted notion of masculinity. What role models do you really have to live up to today?

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG

    What role models do you really have to live up to today?

    In the bad old days, we had hero legends, not to mention local examples of the real thing.
    Then there were cowboy movies and adventure movies where the good guys really were good.
    Today, about the only place to look is the military which is not quite quite for a number of folks. In addition, if all civil society sucks, and the military is the only organization seen to be virtuous, we have a problem.

  • Richard Aubrey

    So I won’t call it “feminized”. I’ll call it “infantilized”, partly by having too high a proportion of female influence in raising.

  • MARY

    Lenon Honor is currently doing an ongoing Youtube series entitled “Visions of Manhood” where he clearly lays out (complete with diagrams) the differences between boys and men and describes how to become men.

    Some of his talking points;

    1. Media: if you are consuming the same type of media in adulthood that you consumed in your childhood and teen years, you are stuck in a boys’ mentality.
    2. Sexual discipline: Men respect and control their sexual impulses boys do not.
    3. Ego: Boys think in terms of I and me, whereas men think in terms of others.
    4. Service: Mothers are in service to their little sons. Boys and men who are stuck in a boyish mentality want women to be in service to them like their moms used to be but a MAN sees himself in service to women (his wife especially) and his family.
    5. Being in service to the wife means solving her problems and relieving her of burdens so that that she feels secure and free to create life (children).

    He makes many other points but the overall theme is that if you as a male are not in service to family, then you have not mentally matured into manhood.

    His videos do not have a religious bent so he’s not some “Focus on the Family” propaganda tool. However he is very family oriented.

    My take is that a male without a wife and kids can still function as a man by directing his energy in service to others, like perhaps seeing all the worlds’ people as his children and doing something to serve humanity as a whole, or at least being in service in his own community.

    The point is that a focus on me, me, me is a childish focus.

    Yet that’s what American society teaches, isn’t it?
    “Rugged individualism” and “fweeeeeeeeeedom!” and to hell with everyone else!

    Well, Lenon Honor says that’s the ego and mental development stage of a 2 year old. That means as a so-called “civilization” we’ve been in our terrible twos for what – 236 hundred and so years now?

    Speaking of which….

    “These guys are essentially boys, but I don’t blame them. Men are created by conflict and challenge, by passion and progress.

    Society aint giving them that. It’s also giving them a VERY perverted notion of masculinity. What role models do you really have to live up to today?”

    – Its not “society’s” job to “give them” squat! Society is comprised of individuals, you and me and everyone here makes up “society”.

    If you see something in your local environment or community that needs to get done then do it! That’s what being an adult is about – being of service.

    Change starts with you.
    Be the change you want to see in “society”.

    Lenon Honor: Difference Between Men & Boys –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCRTB71b4xs

    Visions of Manhood: Men Solve Problems –

  • Esau

    I think it’s very illuminating, that the question Richard Aubrey asked way back at #237 has yet to receive a solid answer. People seem to be circling around some intuitive notions, but everything I’ve read here so far crumbles immediately on first examination.

    For instance, suppose we start from Susan’s idea that lack of motivation and failure to become a PMOS is a primary un-masculine behavior. But, who are the young men in the Boston area who show the strongest motivation to get skills and become PMOS’s? Arguably it’s the nerds of MIT; and yet in no conversation in recorded history would the word “masculine” ever be used to describe those boys. So something is definitely not consistent here, between two otherwise intuitive notions.

    Along other lines, I read this from the normally level-headed Han Solo at #261 above:

    Also, boys are taught to sit still and not fight and to never make girls feel uncomfortable. ….

    This all tends to stifle boys’ and, later, men’s masculinity.

    and, read plainly, it makes no sense to me at all. Fidgeting is masculine? Fighting is masculine? Making girls uncomfortable is masculine? Why can’t we say just the opposite, that teaching boys self-control and self-restraint from a young age will make them more masculine in the future? Think of Gary Cooper, who didn’t fidget, didn’t fight unless as a last resort, and would never make a woman feel uncomfortable; was he feminized and un-masculine? Again, something is just not adding up here at all.

    I’m not going to add to the confusion with my own notions. But I just wanted to drop by and strongly support Aubrey, who I think is making an excellent point and I hope he keeps up the good fight for clarity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For instance, suppose we start from Susan’s idea that lack of motivation and failure to become a PMOS is a primary un-masculine behavior.

      I’d removed myself from the conversation because whatever I know about the topic of masculinity I’ve learned from men here. Might as well cut out the middleman.

      I did not say that lack of motivation is a primary un-masculine behavior. I see it as the result of lifelong misandry, sometimes subtle, sometimes not. I believe men are confused about their role in society. Much of what has been described as manly behavior during the 19th century is no longer an option for them. Gender roles have shifted dramatically, and uncertainty is the result.

      The corollary, of course, is that women have become more masculinized. By that I mean they have adopted attitudes such as ambition, drive and achievement, all things that we have historically associated more with men. We have been urged to shun femininity, sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes not.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s hilarious. Men have to give service to everyone, and doesn’t owe them squat. They aren’t even “entitled” to an environment that will teach them HOW to be men.

    They should just figure it out, and if they fail to give dutiful service to everyone, at no reward to themselves, they are horrible little boys.

    Hilarious.

    That’s what I am getting from your post, Mary.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Environment is part of it, no doubt. Thought of an example. Robert A. Heinlein wrote a bunch of juvie scifi until 1959 with his last, Starship Troopers.
    Then, imo, he became a dirty old man indulging himself. Hippies liked “Stranger in A Strange Land”.
    One of his shorts, “The Long Watch” occurred to me, thinking about this. The plot is that a cabal of Space Patrol officers is going to take over, starting by nuking an “unimportant town or two” to show they’re serious. They try to recruit the bomb officer, John Ezra Dalton, at their moon base. He decides no, slips into the bomb storage room to disable the bombs. Figures he can’t just bust up the guidance stuff–it can easily be repaired. Has to break up the fissile material. With a hammer. So he does. Getting ready to leave, he hears the Geiger counter at the door scream. He’s a dead man. But he figures if he stays in the room, threatening to blow the thing up, it will delay the Colonels for what might be sufficient time.
    Toward the end, Heinlein says, “They gathered about him in the dusky bomb room. Colonel Bowie, too ill to move but insisting he be carried across the line. The boy with his finger in the dike. Rodger Young.”
    Eventually, the Patrol stops the plot and the first ship to land is the Trygvie Lie. Heinlein expected his juvie audience would know what that meant.
    Anyway, try getting something like that past the HS English department, many of the ALA librarians, or the general liberal elite today.
    Can’t read that and be inspired to be a slacker. Or a wimp.
    I grew up in that time. Boys’ stories were like that. Kid’s adventure serials on television were like that, although the endings were ususally happier.
    Not today.
    Which is why I suggest Rosemary Sutcliff’s YA hist fict when I get a chance. A female author. Must be okay. Snort

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares HanSolo

    @Esau

    Same right back at you, you’re normally level-headed but baffling in how you can’t see that by restricting boys from some time devoted to more masculine activities (I’m not saying all the time has to be on that) that they would feel stifled and that could lead to feminizing them somewhat.

    Along other lines, I read this from the normally level-headed Han Solo at #261 above:

    Also, boys are taught to sit still and not fight and to never make girls feel uncomfortable. ….

    This all tends to stifle boys’ and, later, men’s masculinity.

    and, read plainly, it makes no sense to me at all. Fidgeting is masculine? Fighting is masculine? Making girls uncomfortable is masculine? Why can’t we say just the opposite, that teaching boys self-control and self-restraint from a young age will make them more masculine in the future? Think of Gary Cooper, who didn’t fidget, didn’t fight unless as a last resort, and would never make a woman feel uncomfortable; was he feminized and un-masculine? Again, something is just not adding up here at all.

    Yes, fighting is masculine. Who physically fights the most? Men, sometimes for ill, sometimes for good. Gary Cooper fought when needed. However, in today’s pussified schools, even boys that fight in self-defense are punished along with the instigator. So you’re making a false comparison. I certainly agree that a stoic self-control is a part of masculinity but taking that stoicism to the extreme extent and never fighting is not anymore masculine than just lashing out at every whim.

    I never said fidgeting is masculine. Rather, that they’re not given any positive outlet for their rambunctious energy and when that comes out as fidgetiness then they are punished for disrupting class. This causes some to repress it and not be as able to get in touch with their masculine assertiveness and energy. Not to mention that many are needlessly put on ritalin to remove the symptoms of their pent-up masculine energy.

    Once again, a rather sloppy twisting of my meaning. Making girls uncomfortable is not masculine but shaming them so much into self-censors that they won’t approach girls much at all and then do so without any confidence or charisma does make them less masculine.

    Hmmm, I am accustomed to much better thinking from you. Maybe next time.

  • MARY

    “I never said fidgeting is masculine. Rather, that they’re not given any positive outlet for their rambunctious energy and when that comes out as fidgetiness then they are punished for disrupting class. This causes some to repress it and not be as able to get in touch with their masculine assertiveness and energy. ”

    First, RECESS is the positive outlet for elementary school children to get out their rambunctious energy. Once back in the classroom however they have to sit their behinds down and hit the books. What do you expect teachers to do, stop in the middle of class and give these kids 5 minutes to run like bats out of hell in the halls? What about the other kids in class who want to stay focused and LEARN SOMETHING? Would that be fair to them?

    In Junior High and High School, gym class /phys ed, as well as extra-curricular sports provides the “positive outlet”.

    And what about parents? Do they take their kids out to run, bike or climb trees after school or do they have a big fat, flat screen idiot box in the middle of their dead room (what you would call “living room”?)

    Its as if schools and teachers are expected to be everything for these kids;
    their babysitters
    their counselors
    their entertainers
    their physical therapists
    their police men and women
    and most of all their own damn parents!

    If you are so concerned about how boys are “stifled” in school why don’t you get off the internet, BE THE CHANGE and start an outdoors club for them in your community?

    ADBG,
    “They should just figure it out, and if they fail to give dutiful service to everyone, at no reward to themselves, they are horrible little boys.
    Hilarious.
    That’s what I am getting from your post, Mary.”

    Well then you got it wrong.

    The presenter does a better job of articulating his points than I do for him.

  • Esau

    Re: Han Solo at 274, just above

    As Obi-Wan might tell you, “This little one’s not worth it.” I thought your writing back at 261 was kind of sloppy and unclear; and while your longer expansion at 274 is better, you are still deploying (IMO) foggy and circular euphemisms like “masculine energy”. But, I don’t think it’s a good use of your time to fence with me on philology, here at the tail end of a superannuated thread, mainly because there are larger issues afoot. It will be more interesting for you, I think, for me to show you where I’m coming from and then make a useful suggestion.

    As I wrote back in this comment

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/06/25/politics-and-feminism/the-unspun-truth-about-marriage-in-the-u-s/#comment-218563

    I think US women in general (obligatory NAWALT, necessarily) have a great unresolved inner conflict about what they want, and how they want men to act toward them, which touches directly on “masculinity” as they see it. Then, as is typical of human beings, they are deeply psychologically unwilling to cognize an inner contradiction, and so they instead turn the uncomfortable feeling outward and blame men. So I think a great deal of discussion about “masculinity”, what it means and how men should behave, on the part of (mainly, though not exclusively) women is actually high-test, 140-proof misandry in very thin disguise; and I feel strongly that such disguises should be revealed.

    The key, the real red flag, in recognizing this irrational male-bashing is the incoherence of the language that is used. Because blaming men for a flaw that actually arises in women is intrinsically mistaken, it is a feature of the exercise that what is said always remains vague and circular; a clear exposition with exacting language would have to reveal the truth, and that would be a failure that must be avoided.

    To take a simple example, how many times have you heard a woman, including feminists, speaking on behalf of women say something like “We want to be treated as equals, but we also want men to act like men!” , or a very close equivalent. A hundred? a thousand? But if you examine these kinds of statements at all closely, you’ll see that it really has no reasoning, logical content at all. She just conjurs up this vague, circular, utterly un-specified thing to fill in under the heading “act like a man”, without supplying even the tiniest detail of what that might mean; and then proceeds to bludgeon men for not being able to live up to this vaporous standard while still toeing the feminist line on equality. Try to pin her down and you’ll only be spun in circles: Q: “What does it mean to act like a man?” A:”It means to do what men should do, as men! Masculine energy! Masculine means be a man and not a boy!”, etc., etc., round and round and round. What it really means, IME, is “men should do whatever I want them to, when I want it, without my having to actually spell anything out and have it examined.”

    So now you have some idea where I’m coming from, I trust. Having seen this sort of thing go by on the internets for a while now, I’m reflexively suspicious of people using the term “masculinity” without clear definitions, and anything edging toward the “you know what I mean” automatically raises a red flag for me. So, without attributing any motivation of misandry directly, I can say that your #261 got caught in my dragnet along these lines.

    Now, as I said above I don’t think it’s the best use of your time to debate further at the end of this old thread, without much audience. So instead, I suggest you take the subject up on the “JustFourGuys” blog. It’s a very natural subject for a male perspective blog: What does masculinity mean to me? Is it an ideal to be followed? How is it being impaired? How should the ideal change in the post-feminist, equal-rights world? From what I can tell in your writing here, for example, I would say that you’re finding a bias toward action as a central part of masculinity; do you agree? it could be very interesting to discuss.

    Don’t waste your time here on me. Go to your big audience and share with them; you are just the four guys to do it.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares HanSolo

    @Esau

    I agree that having a “good” definition of masculinity is important. I was simply assuming I have a reasonably good (though likely nebulous) one and that you were or would be aware of that fact and read between the lines in my first comment, even though I didn’t fully flesh things out.

    I do see the contradictions that are often there in many women saying “we want to be treated as equals but want you to be men.” And no definition of what a man is is given and even if there is then it can often conflict with truly being treated as equals, or their behavior in the kind of men they choose is not fully consistent with wanting men that do treat them as equals.

    I think your suggested questions for a post are good: “What does masculinity mean to me? Is it an ideal to be followed? How is it being impaired? How should the ideal change in the post-feminist, equal-rights world?”

    In a changed world, where being a provider is no longer the hallmark it once was, what is a man’s role? What is masculinity and can most men take on a masculine role in today’s society?

    I would agree with your inference about my views, that action is central to masculinity. This is evident in the meme that men present (take action to both make themselves presentable and then go about presenting) and women choose.

    I have written down the idea and will likely address it at JFG at some point. It definitely is a worthy topic of discussion there.

    Cheers and feel free to suggest more posts for JFG.

  • Marc

    @Mary 139

    Who uses condoms anymore? I cant speak for everyone, but I simply cant wear them. The whole point of intercourse is the feeling, and putting a piece of latex on your penis is like being choked by a weak midget. Makes no sense. I cant even stay hard with one. I am so removed from the moment physically/emotionally, that I could have condom sex with my mother. Its like a handshake to me.
    .
    My sister, who is now a lung surgeon in Colorado, worked in the AIDS unit in Cook County hospital in Chicago for 3 years. She told me “Marc, I will tell you something that no advertisement, government, or CDC will ever tell you. Contracting HIV from vaginal sex is nearly impossible. Nearly 100% of cases are of drug users, gay, poor, or black. Most are all of the above. HIV is misrepresented to the public, for obvious reasons.” Before anyone rebutts this, please consider the source. She is an expert, not us. She also made it clear that the info you gather has an agenda.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Who uses condoms anymore?”

    Plenty of people. Including my husband when did not self-abstain or use natural family planning.

    “The whole point of intercourse is the feeling, and putting a piece of latex on your penis is like being choked by a weak midget. Makes no sense.”

    It makes no sense for a woman to risk her health just for your feeeeeeeewings.

    “She told me “Marc, I will tell you something that no advertisement, government, or CDC will ever tell you. Contracting HIV from vaginal sex is nearly impossible. Nearly 100% of cases are of drug users, gay, poor, or black. Most are all of the above. HIV is misrepresented to the public, for obvious reasons.”

    Forget AIDS, Marc. I know I’m not overly concerned about it.

    What about all the very serious, very long term ( life long) negative side effects of bc pills and IUDs for women?