How to Get a Boyfriend in College

July 3, 2013

Happy Couple ShoppingThe first and most critical step to finding a relationship in college is choosing a guy who’s capable of and interested in having one. Avoid wasting time, emotional energy (and a number!) on guys who are not relationship material. 

Take this quiz and see where you should be investing your effort.

1. You see him walking around campus in a t-shirt. Printed on the chest is:

a. Greek letters (-2 points)

b. Varsity __________ (-1 point)

c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)

d. A political cause or slogan (+2 points)

2. He eats lunch with:

a. A roving band of marauders (-2 points)

b. One particular girl (-1 point)

c. A couple of guys (+1 point)

d. It varies – sometimes alone, sometimes with a friend or two, sometimes he joins a group (+2 points)

3. Where you met:

a. At a frat party (-2 points)

b. He approached you randomly (-1 point)

c. In class (+1 point)

d. Freshman Orientation (+2 points)

4. His class year:

a. Senior (-2 points)

b. Junior (-1 point)

c. Sophomore (+1 point)

d. Freshman (+2 points)

5. What month is it?

a. April (-2 points)

b. September (-1 point)

c. November (+1 point)

d. February (+2 points) 

6. You’ve seen him at the library:

a. Never (-2 points)

b. During finals (-1 point)

c. Every time you’re there (+1 point)

d. Occasionally (+2 points)

7. He plays a college sport:

a. Football, Lacrosse, Basketball (-2 points)

b. Division 1 anything (-1 point)

c. Co-ed club sport (+1 point)

d. Track, Crew, Tennis (+2 points)

 8. Number of alcoholic drinks he consumes per weekend:

a. 15-30 (-2 points)

b. 10-14 (-1 point)

c. 0-4 (+1 point)

d. 5-9 (+2 points)

9. When you make eye contact and smile, he:

a. Smirks (-2 points)

b. Looks bored (-1 point)

c. Comes running over (+1 point)

d. Holds eye contact, smiles back, and nods (+2 points)

10. In a group setting he:

a. Mostly ignores you until late in the evening (-2 points)

b. Says Be Right Back 3 or more times (-1 point)

c. Stays by your side (+1 point)

d. Socializes among a group of his friends and yours (+2 points)

11. He suggests hanging out:

a. In his room, now (-2 points)

b. By meeting up when you’re out next weekend (-1 point)

c. At a specific event (+1 point)

d. During the daytime (+2 points)

12. He expresses his attraction to you by saying:

a. “You can suck my dick if you want.” (-2 points)

b. “Do you want to be my girlfriend?” (-1 point)

c. “I’m really attracted to you.” (+1 point)

d. Doesn’t say anything, but actions send a clear message. (+2 points)

13. His first attempt at physical contact is:

a. Grinding on you from behind (-2 points)

b. Spontaneous makeout session (-1 point)

c. Goodnight kiss (+1 point)

d. Hand holding (+2 points)

14. His attitude about relationships:

a. Just wants to have fun (-2 points)

b. Just got out of one (-1 point)

c. Wants one (+1 point)

d. Would commit to the right girl (+2 points)

15. Long-term career goals:

a. That’s not why he’s at college (-2 points)

b. Be on stage (-1 point)

c. Brain intensive and in high demand, e.g. Technology, Finance, MD, etc. (+1 point)

d. Entrepreneur (+2 points)

Total Points:

-30 to -15: You’re addicted to douchebags. Good luck with that.

-15 to 0: He’s ambivalent at best. The long-term forecast is not favorable.

0-15: He’s a good guy who has healthy relationships and would consider dating you. Let him know you’re interested.

15-30: He’s a catch. Grab on and don’t let go – Hard to Get is a poor strategy. 

  • Escoffier

    The Smiths, hmmm …

    • The Smiths, hmmm …

      Do you have a vacancy for a back scrubber?

  • A t-shirt with “a political cause or slogan (+2 points)”

    Really? I think a lot of times, people wearing political slogans around are merely expressing their conformity and submission to whatever views are trendy in their circle, or the circle to which they *hope* to be admitted.

    • Really? I think a lot of times, people wearing political slogans around are merely expressing their conformity and submission to whatever views are trendy in their circle, or the circle to which they *hope* to be admitted.

      I think a guy who’s willing to state his values openly gets points for that. How hard is it to “get into” the circle of people espousing a particular view? I’d be willing to give extra points for non-conformity.

  • Escoffier

    foster, I had the same thought. However, I reminded myself that the question is “relationship fitness,” not “freedom of thought” or some such. On that basis, slogan-boy is probably a better bet than frat-boy.

  • Sai

    Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?

    • Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?

      A guy who doesn’t drink at all in college is an outlier. If that is a good match for you, that’s great, but most women prefer a boyfriend who is socially oriented, and in college that means having a beer or two.

  • Erik L

    Entrepreneur +2? Explanation please…

    • Entrepreneur +2? Explanation please…

      Signifies creativity, drive, ambition, tenacity and intelligence. Most likely to have big ideas that turn into big money.

  • FeralEmployee

    Entrepreneur? I know some huge a-holes that are entrepreneurs, with a troublesome NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) on top of that.

    Though I guess it’s still better than assigning the +2 points to hipster bass players. I see STEM gets a +1 pity point.

    • I know some huge a-holes that are entrepreneurs, with a troublesome NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) on top of that.

      Personality disorders are captured in other questions.

      I see STEM gets a +1 pity point.

      Hahaha! I like that – a pity point.

      Tech plus entrepreneur is winning the lottery, obvs. Highest potential combo.

  • Track

    I think Entrepreneur got more points than STEM careers because it implies (maybe) that entrepreneurs are more naturally outgoing, whereas people in STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

  • Track

    Though I personally disagree with the class year ranking, it has been my experience that by the end of sophomore/the beginning of junior year more guys are willing to “settle down” so to speak and commit to a girl, because the newness and entertainment of the freshman year hook up scene has faded.

    • Though I personally disagree with the class year ranking, it has been my experience that by the end of sophomore/the beginning of junior year more guys are willing to “settle down” so to speak and commit to a girl, because the newness and entertainment of the freshman year hook up scene has faded.

      Good point, I’ll buy that. However, nearly all “college marrieds” get together freshmen year, so that bumps freshmen up a bit.

  • Richard Aubrey

    In the mid-nineties, I went to a fraternity reunion of the classes of, roughly, 63-68. Most of the guys there were married to the girls they’d been going with when I knew them.
    This does not address how many other girls they’d dated up to the One.
    Still, better than average marriage solidity.

  • Nowadays it’s better to wear a nerdy/techy T-shirt, like a reddit or xkcd shirt, video game logo shirt, etc. Political T-shirts are too alienating, and really, smart Millennials are generally disillusioned about the major political parties.

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2013/05/21/daily-circuit-youth-vote

    • Nowadays it’s better to wear a nerdy/techy T-shirt, like a reddit or xkcd shirt, video game logo shirt, etc.

      It can be – I think it depends. XKCD >>> video game shirt, IMO. If a girl is a gamer, that’s obvs not the case, but most girls aren’t.

      Political T-shirts are too alienating, and really, smart Millennials are generally disillusioned about the major political parties.

      Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of solar power or “hug a tree,” lol. Not Young Republicans. Though that still beats Greek letters.

  • Sai “Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?”

    Presumably the guy who drinks a bit is more socially savvy than the guy who never touches alcohol.

    And actually that is my husband, who drank a bit in college and would only commit to the “right girl.”

  • Drifting

    Reactions to the best choices on the list, sorry for wall of text:

    1. He’s the right kind of trendy, one that shows a moral rather than aesthetic earnestness.

    2. He’s sociable, but doesn’t have close friends who might distract him from you. Easier to distance and keep separate.

    3. You meet him in a place where you will never see him again if you so choose, and if you don’t like him, you can break cleanly. No longing looks from the back row if you do.

    4. He’s just arrived, and hasn’t realized his SMV yet. Easier to mold.

    5. Not a “fling” month.

    6. Bookish, but not overly so, with little chance of stalker tendencies.

    7. All the benefits of fratness and old money sports, with none of the frat culture.

    8. He parties, but is neither a drunkard not a teetotaller. Notice how many of these things are pretty much the idea of the “respectable gentleman?”

    9. Shows interest without being desperate. Selecting out the overly beta yet again, but he isn’t used to it either.

    10. Again, he isn’t beta, but isn’t alpha enough to disregard you.

    11. Takes you on a date in a place where sex won’t be easy and you’ll be entertained.

    12. Annoying. You can’t ever tell a woman you’re attracted to her, because ironically that makes her see you as a beta and loses her attraction. You have to show it, but again, not in ways that she dislikes. Read her mind.

    13. Nonthreatening, romantic, willing to wait, but the game guys would say that a girl who finds this attractive is sorting a beta-alpha out for a provider role. More likely than not a girl would be hooking up on the side with someone else who makes her tingle unless she’s consistently moral.

    14. I think you’re expecting an awful lot from a college freshman here.

    15. Unrealistic. You realize the majority of entrepreneurs fail to make money, right? Seems like you want alpha traits here and the potential to make big bucks, but successful ones tend to do mundane, boring businesses.

    My take is a little more cynical, but on the guy end you have to realize that we’re simply not going to fill the +2 category at that age well. The + 2 is kind of like an old money gentleman who knows how to work the crowd yet isn’t virile enough to be a more polite version of the -2. The +1 seems to be a settling beta; high earning potential, more moldable and controllable, less likely to stray.

    • The +1 seems to be a settling beta; high earning potential, more moldable and controllable, less likely to stray.

      Agreed, I think going after the +1 guy has the highest ROI.

  • JP

    “Presumably the guy who drinks a bit is more socially savvy than the guy who never touches alcohol.”

    When I started college, I was still of the mind that underage parties should be shut down the the police.

    I was somewhat frustrated that they could’t lock this down and solve the problem by expelling such students.

  • Drifting

    Entrepreneur makes sense because it selects for alphas, and if we are talking a decent college, they’ll have money behind them to be able to start trendy or high status businesses. No owning a chain of laundromats or slums, or worse, cash-checking places. A lot of the +2s are traits which work for social status; this is why tennis and track are better than football because you’re more likely to find high status mates doing them. Even if the payout is possibly less.

    • this is why tennis and track are better than football because you’re more likely to find high status mates doing them.

      No, it’s because in my experience, those guys have had a much more “normal” upbringing, have better sportsmanship, and are generally more intelligent, i.e. not meatheads. I would definitely include crew here.

  • lovelost

    Greek letters (-2 points)

    why is that?

    • Greek letters (-2 points)

      why is that?

      Because most guys join fraternities to get drunk and get laid, in that order.

  • lovelost

    STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

    that’s what i call “stereotypical non-sense”. anyhow good luck with that attitude.

  • JP

    “STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

    that’s what i call “stereotypical non-sense”. anyhow good luck with that attitude.”

    I agree with this.

    STEM = boring-awkward.

    This is one of the reasons that I bailed on it. All of the patent attorneys even got made fun of at a law firm social once.

    Definitely considered the “social weirdos”.

  • Track

    @lovelost

    No need to take that so personally, I didn’t say that was my opinion of STEM careers, I was simply replying as to why I thought entrepreneur was ranked higher.

  • Escoffier

    When it comes to relationship fitness, I agree it is odd that entrepreneurs are ranked higher than STEM guys. Entrepreneurs would seem to be, on average, more “alpha” and hence more attractive but that would seem to detract a bit from relationship fitness rather than add to it.

  • Track

    @Escoffier

    I agree with you, I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends, but I think this ranking may have been more in terms of getting the relationship started than maintaining one. I suppose we’ll see when Susan comments.

    • I agree with you, I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends, but I think this ranking may have been more in terms of getting the relationship started than maintaining one.

      Exactly. For the girl to have noticed the guy and be considering him, he has to be out and about on campus, doing some socializing, etc.

      However, I didn’t mention tech, finance, etc. for personality reasons. I think it’s a good filter for intelligence, self-discipline and motivation. I give entrepreneurs extra credit for the reasons I stated above, which they have in addition to these. Basically, I’m looking to hit as many female long-term attraction cues as I can.

  • Escoffier, as Susan went to Wharton, she is a bit biased toward entrepreneurial men. She also did not go to college during the start-up boom of the 2000s and 2010s (with all of its failures), nor was she involved any failed start-ups. Most of the young women she knows probably haven’t been either. I have, and I run far away from any guy who utters the word “start-up” around me.

  • Drifting

    STEM guys won’t. They are followers at heart, and +1 is all about beta followers. They can be lucrative followers at times (though many STEM fields have very poor pay and qol issues, when you can even get employed) but the geek mindset isn’t really alpha.

  • Escoffier

    Yeah, I was a big fan of that band in college. But I was, or could be, a rather weepy and sensetive soul. Then again, I did make a good boyfriend (if I do say so myself)–right up untl the moment I broke up with her to move east.

    I dunno, I just think affinity for The Smiths might signify a little too much maudlin-beta to sustain attraction for the long term … I moved on to classical at around age 19, so I escaped …

  • Escoffier

    BTW, Susan, I have a couple of fresh, good Mrs. E stories, but they don’t seem to be on topic. However, I know you like them so if you don’t mind that they are OT, I can share …

    • @Escoffier

      I have a couple of fresh, good Mrs. E stories, but they don’t seem to be on topic.

      I rarely if ever object to OT comments, and I do enjoy Mrs. E stories. Do share them!

  • JP

    “A guy who doesn’t drink at all in college is an outlier. If that is a good match for you, that’s great, but most women prefer a boyfriend who is socially oriented, and in college that means having a beer or two.”

    Except for the fact that it’s a criminal action.

    Which is a real problem if you are trying to be law abiding.

  • JP

    “Good point, I’ll buy that. However, nearly all “college marrieds” get together freshmen year, so that bumps freshmen up a bit.”

    Because they are holding on to each other like life preservers?

    • Because they are holding on to each other like life preservers?

      Exactly. For some percentage of guys and girls, that’s the perfect arrangement. Those guys probably can’t be beat as boyfriends.

  • SayWhaat

    I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends

    I don’t.

    Too ‘spergy.

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

  • Escoffier

    heh, I rowed crew. Also rugby, now that is where the TRUE meatheads are. Lax, rugby and water polo seemed to have the highest concentration of barbarians.

    • Lax, rugby and water polo seemed to have the highest concentration of barbarians.

      LOL! I love the use of “barbarians” here. Totally agree re lax, it’s the most “bro” of all sports. I don’t think we have water polo in the east, so no comment there. Rugby players are maniacs.

  • Vitor

    Discarding two or three random variables, 22 points with a slight skew upwards. 😀

  • Joe

    @Susan, I don’t understand the 8d points either. I agree with the part about outliers, but 9 drinks every weekend (your upper limit) sounds excessive. I could see that after finals…

    And entrepreneurs? No, no, NO!!! Entrepreneurs are already married to their job and career prospects, much like an alcoholic is already in a relationship with his bottle. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are not good prospects.

    • but 9 drinks every weekend (your upper limit) sounds excessive. I could see that after finals…

      I agree 9 is getting up there. I figure that’s three beers for each of three nights (many kids go out on Thursday nights). Guys who binge drink, which is very common in college, sometimes have 15 beers or more – per night.

      Entrepreneurs are already married to their job and career prospects, much like an alcoholic is already in a relationship with his bottle. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are not good prospects.

      Let me clarify something. I’m not really thinking of husband material here. A guy who dreams big in college has some good qualities from a female POV. But neither she nor anyone else will know if he realizes his dreams for ten more years. So it’s more about the kinds of qualities that signal “winner”

      I have a couple of friends who are married to serial entrepreneurs, and they have a life. I guess it depends on the business, or product.

      Also, I should say that I wrote this as a quirky, humorous post. I don’t mean for anyone to take it as gospel – obviously, it reflects my own biases and preferences. Other women will feel differently. I did try to hit some high points re character, though. I’m not wedded to anything here, and am happy to take other suggestions for + points or – points.

  • Drifting

    The right kind of barbarians though, sadly. Football and similar are meritocratic by necessity, and high status class markers are anything but.

    • Football and similar are meritocratic by necessity

      Yes, the guy who looks most like a refrigerator has what it takes.

  • Escoffier

    Drifting, at my school, which was Div 1A, the football and basketball players were in a completely different league, almost at a different school. Many of them had shots at pro careers and genuine super-stardome. Some were already stars in their own right.

    Lax, rugby and WP, by contrast, were more “down to earth.” Those were high status guys, to be sure, but more “attainable.” There was a sense that they were going to the same school as you, just that they were at the top and you were not. The bigtime players for the televised, money-making sports OTOH were like demi-gods. Not really “of” us in any real way.

  • JP

    SayWhaat has the right idea.

    Avoid them because that path is the way ruin and insanity.

    At least until we figure out what is causing the massive increase in spergishness.

  • JP

    “Drifting, at my school, which was Div 1A, the football and basketball players were in a completely different league, almost at a different school. Many of them had shots at pro careers and genuine super-stardome. Some were already stars in their own right.”

    Normal girls still dated them however.

    One of my friends’ sister dated the QB of a major Div I school.

    (Granted, if she was *married* to him right now, her life would be a complete ruin and embarrassment, and shame would follow her all of her days for unrelated reasons.)

    • A young woman I know was courted relentlessly by a Duke basketball player every day for three weeks. His efforts consisted of texting her every night to come to his apartment for sex. She finally threatened to report it as harassment and he stopped.

  • JP

    Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

    We really need to shut it down.

    Although it *does* produce wonderful briefs for disability cases. I used a legal brief from a firm that represented an NFL guy for permanent brain damage. Saved me a lot of time.

    • Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

      We really need to shut it down.

      Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

  • JP

    Why on God’s Green Earth am I commenting on a blog post entitled “How to Get a Boyfriend in College”.

    I can’t really come up with an answer.

    I’m at a loss for words here.

    • Why on God’s Green Earth am I commenting on a blog post entitled “How to Get a Boyfriend in College”.

      I can’t really come up with an answer.

      I’m at a loss for words here.

      Haha! Why am I writing one?

  • “How To Get A Boyfriend in College”

    Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.

    Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.

    • Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.

      This is not true in my experience. Having visited quite a few colleges, and hung out at two quite a bit, I was continuously amazed at how much thinner the women were than the general population. At graduation in particular, when girls were in sleeveless dresses, I saw more anorexic girls than overweight ones.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)”

    All this tell us about is Susan’s taste in music.

    • All this tell us about is Susan’s taste in music.

      True. What I was trying to get at was the cool factor, an artistic temperament, and high EQ.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    I do not wish to turn this into another political thread. However, the problem with Gen Y’s disillusionment with politics is not politics’ fault. It is Gen Y’s fault.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.”

    Bull! Plenty of fat women have boyfriends.

    And heaven knows your miserable now.

  • Mike M.

    Folks, I’ll let you in on a secret.

    STEM is not monolithic.

    At the bottom, you’ve got “technology”. Read computer programming, etc. OK pay, OK skills. Seems to attract the hard-core nerd/geek types.

    Then you have math & science. Better pay, higher skills.

    At the top, you have the engineers. Highly skilled, top pay. Practical. Nice people, frequently have unusual hobbies. Snag one…if you can.

  • Plenty of fat women may have boyfriends but

  • JP

    “At the top, you have the engineers. Highly skilled, top pay. Practical. Nice people, frequently have unusual hobbies. Snag one…if you can.”

    And joked about by the rest of society because they are spergy.

  • According to this study, of the women who are in some sort of relationship,

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19485565.2011.615172#.UdRe2Pm1FqW

    the obese and overweight are less likely to report a “dating exclusively” reln. than the normal and underweight:

    under…62%
    normal.55%
    overw..46%
    obese…45%

  • And that study doesn’t really say what percent of each category of women is IN or NOT IN some sort of relationship.

    It’s just common sense that getting oneself out of the obese or overweight category will give a woman much more power to enter a relationship with a man that she finds attractive and that will find her attractive.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    I’m reposting here Divorced in Texas’s latest comment under HUS’s “Unspun Truth About Marriage” thread because it is relevant to the state of finances and stability of “college boyfriends”

    DivorcedInTexas July 2, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    I’m new to the blog so have not read up on the blog mistress – so thanks for pointing that out. I really agree wholeheartedly. I really can never see me giving up my career at this point anyway. I have worked really hard and am in my dream job. Any man I would accept would have to share in the domestic work that we didn’t hire out or it just wouldn’t last kids or not. Since I still have many life decisions to make about relationships, marriage, kids, home buying, relocating, grad school, etc. This is an exercise for me to do research, imagine outcomes, talk about it with others and get feedback. Then when I have figured out more of what I want, I can do what I do best – define the goal and set out the steps needed to make it happen. I did this for work and my money, just not really in my personal life until now. Right now I baffle from one end to the other, and I know I need to figure things out a bit more if I want to be proactive this time around. Last time I married my first boyfriend – that was reactionary because I wanted to get married and obviously had little requirements beyond the basics. I think the saying is young and dumb?

    Were there signs that my ex would be violent and abusive? Honestly there were not that I noticed. He was never violent before we lived together. But there were signs that he did not have the same financial priorities that I had. But friends and family told me that I was ambitious enough for the two of us. That I was overly ambitious and because I work in financial services, think about money just way too much. So I figured it was almost snobby to judge someone financially and expect the same level of money-motivation. This may be true, I spend much of my time reviewing financial plans and portfolios and have seen thousands of clients over the years in all walks if life. And the image of the little 75yo old widow ladies asking me what are they going to do? The account is out of money how can this be??? They used to have 100k. And I have to pull out my notes and show them where I advised them every year at their rate of withdrawal, they would run out of money. I tell them that they can go get a job or go try for welfare, sell off assets, or start charging their kids for domestic services, etc. And they would just look at me like I was insane – they didn’t like any of those options. They would insist I give them another option. Like most people they have no acceptance of the reality that you can’t (or don’t want to) work forever, but being alive still costs money.

    I wish someone had told me that it doesn’t matter if he is willing to marry – he isn’t eligible to. Young women should go into marriage less on feelings that I am so glad someone wants to commit to me, loves me, takes me out and buys me flowers, (my ex did all that) etc. Men go into relationships based on logic of will this person accomplish what I’m trying to do? Is she fertile? Does she have good genes? Will she make me look good at the company event to my boss and clients? Do I love her so much that I am willing and able to deal with her debts and low income job?

    This time around I know that although I may like someone, it isn’t in my best interest to get into a relationship with someone not eligible to provide for their half of a home, living expenses, safety cushion, and their retirement expenses. Since these are my goals – I really would be better off staying single than marrying a dependent. Already learned that one the hard way.

    I would encourage women to quantify whatever their life goals are – which I suspect are similar to mine anyway – and then ask yourself is this guy eligible to participate in that? Or is he more likely to hold me back from my goals or from meeting someone else that is eligible? When you realize the answer is no the vast majority of the time that he isn’t eligible – there is very little reason to have sex with him in hopes he will like you and eventually commit – you don’t want to be committed to someone that holds you back. Dating should be to see if you like and get along with someone eligible to be your life partner.

    Anyone that has credit card debt, student loans, or any debts other than a home or car – is unacceptable to me. People act like that is so harsh of a requirement, everyone has some credit card debt. Debt is a symptom of bad choices and poor self-discipline, just like being overweight.

    Anyone that doesn’t have 3- 6 months emergency savings in place is unacceptable to me. Again many people think this is an absurd requirement of mine and that no one really has that. Obviously if you ever want to go beyond living paycheck to paycheck this is how you do it. And if you amazingly never have an emergency that it just goes into retirement.

    Anyone that doesn’t have a plan for down payment money on a home whether its savings or earning extra money is unacceptable to me- living in an apartment with others is not something I want to do for a long time.

    Anyone that can’t verbalize somewhat of a retirement plan in that they know they probably can’t work full time past 70 at the rate of income they make now. And have been working towards a solution for this – even though they may not actually know what is needed. That is what financial planners are for anyway!

    I have been told by many people that these are unrealistic requirements. Yet I have them all accomplished and am thrilled to not have much stress in life. This wasn’t by magic or happenstance – I just follow my own advice to either earn more or spend less to get out of debt and have short, intermediate, and long term money. It isn’t a new concept.

    I’ve been told I’m a gold digger by men and women. None of the above is for me – it is for their half. I don’t want the communal money going towards their prior debts rather than our future. I may not be able to fully support us in the event he loses his job, so their emergency savings is to buffer their lost income. It wouldnt be right if I have to pony all the money up for the home because it wasnt convenient for them to ever save. Their retirement savings is to go for their half of our expenses in our retirement. Of course I’m willing to give in proportion to my higher income, but they should still be able to meet their part.

    I lived through the fallout of this when my ex bought a house no money down at twice the going rates – that he and I could barely afford together (prior to marriage so it would only be in his name) yet I got to pay for half. Yes clearly a big red flag, but hey when the housing market tanked and I got to move out scott-free and take my paycheck with me – He got plenty of payback as it wasn’t my property under water. What I really lost was the years of income being devoted to paying down his mortgage term and not my own.

    When I did a budget on what it cost to raise a child and that we couldn’t afford it – he was unwilling to make changes to earn more or spend less elsewhere, which is why no kids. And also why he had no discipline to earn or save more to buy a house with a down payment and get a good rate.

    So these are quantifiable measures that I think would be good for anyone to qualify someone with as a viable life partner. Yes it will knock out all the poor, as well as the unaware, irresponsible and lazy. But if they won’t get a second job now to get out of debt – they probably won’t take one when the fence needs replaced or the cost of daycare is going up, and unless there is a windfall – the debt will increase and that stress and fights over money will likely increase as well, unless you just like working your tail off, still being poor with no end in sight.

    The only exception for this would be if someone was already working a second job or really saving and knew when they would accomplish these things. A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.

    You might say if someone were young they may not be able to achieve that yet, or if they have fallen onto hard times, etc. Regardless of their personal case, are they really ready to embark upon a successful adult life? If not, are they actually working on it? When will they achieve it? Is it worth waiting? If not, then it easily becomes apparent that they aren’t worth wasting dating time on, free yourself up to go meet an eligible partner.

    342 Bed & Break-fast July 3, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    All good points, Divorced in Texas. I’m going to post this comment on the latest topic Susan blogged “How To Get a Boyfriend in College” because what struck me is that young college men would have none of the above going for them, yet Susan is advising young women to get boyfriends in college, not for the sake of just dating and fun, but with a view toward long term and even marriage.

  • On a campus with a gender ratio of 60:40… -2

    ….gender ratio of 70:30 … -5 pts. (non-linearities)

    Guy’s SMV is over 7: -5 pts

    …SMV over 9: -20 pts

    Guy talks openly about spending semesters abroad: -2 pts.

    Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.

    Guy has many hot female friends on Facebook: -3 pts.

    Guy is into extreme sports: -3 pts.

    • Guy talks openly about spending semesters abroad: -2 pts.

      Most guys and girls do this – for one semester. Relationships often end or the couple “takes a break” during that semester. So April when a guy is going abroad in the fall (most common): not happening.

      Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.

      Interesting – I personally know about a dozen guys in these jobs at age 23, 10 of whom are in serious relationships. But most of them had 0 or 1 relationships in college. A lot of them were varsity athletes – Wall St. loves Div 1 athletes. Also, a lot more guys think they’re going to get these jobs than actually do. A lot of entitled, connected, not necessarily bright bro type guys want into the business. Some of them get in, but a lot of them can’t stay in. Several of the guys I know who graduated college in 2009 got the axe in March at bonus time.

      Guy has many hot female friends on Facebook: -3 pts.

      For a guy to not have many hot female friends on fb requires effort. My kids and their friends have 1300 friends or more. The bar is very low for being friends on fb.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    +1 what you said about failed start-ups.
    I imagine the failure rate for entrepreneurs now is much, much higher than in Susan’s day.

    @Susan

    I disagree with your upper limit on the booze both in absolute and relative terms.

    absolute- 9 drinks all in one night, once a week is drunkard territory but still qualifies

    Also, what does score does one get if they are both an entrepreneur and a STEM spergling?

    Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

    • absolute- 9 drinks all in one night, once a week is drunkard territory but still qualifies

      I concede the point.

      Also, what does score does one get if they are both an entrepreneur and a STEM spergling?

      The question is meant to address a guy’s intelligence, ambition, drive, and future time orientation.

      Sperglings would lose points in other areas, but perhaps not on career plans.

      Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

      There are a lot fewer +2s, and the competition is a lot stiffer. There’s also more of a risk of mate poaching with a +2, as well as the guy developing a smirk over time.

  • B&B/PJ: Was Divorced in Texas advising men to use a similar template—i.e., to only marry a woman with no student loans, etc.?

  • Divorced in Texas is a good example of how NOT to get a bf because she has a list a mile long. She wants him to:

    -earn at least $100k
    -single
    -no kids
    -no debt at all except for home and car
    -others I’m not listing

    Those are all good things but the key questions are “how many such men are there?” and “how many such men would want her?”

    In the US, there are only about 8 million men that make $100k or more. And how many of those are married, or have kids or are way older? A lot. That reduces the pool of eligible men (in her eyes).

    Good luck to her if she can find that man. In her favor, she says she earns $80k and is economically responsible. But I find it interesting that she didn’t say she wants a guy that earns at least $80k. She still wants him to earn more than her.

  • And I forgot to add that since she is roughly 34 (IIRC) then the pool of single men that’s earning $100k+ is going to include a lot with kids, divorces or incurable high-earning playboys.

  • The single men that would be interested in her would tend to be in the 34-50 y/o range.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “It’s just common sense that getting oneself out of the obese or overweight category will give a woman much more power to enter a relationship with a man that she finds attractive and that will find her attractive.”

    Mmmm, I dunno. Chubby gals seem to be doing just fine in the bf dept.

    I know when I had gained 15 extra myself men that didn’t look twice at me before started checking me out. And they happened to be the most muscular/physically fit of any of the men that had ever checked me out.

  • Hope

    Hansolo, positive traits tend to be correlated with each other, so a person who is intelligent, high in future time orientation, mature and responsible is also likely to be not overweight due to better self-control, to not carry credit card debt, to make decent money and lives below means, to have several months worth of savings, to be respectful and kind, etc. If a woman is bringing all that to the table, it’s not unreasonable to ask for at least similar in return.

    I actually ticked most if not all of those boxes when I was in my mid-20s, and I had hoped to meet a guy who was similar. I ended up supporting my husband for a few years, but we were on the same page about finances and future goals, and we were both still young. My husband is a catch now, but yeah he’s married.

    It is true that a guy like this in the 30s age range would be far less likely to be single. But simply writing this woman’s post off as fantasy is incorrect, as there are still plenty of people who get married in their 30s and have good unions. It’s important to choose a life partner well, and both men and women should be prudent.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bast*** Blogger, “B&B/PJ: Was Divorced in Texas advising men to use a similar template—i.e., to only marry a woman with no student loans, etc.?”

    She mentioned that men already do approach long term mating and marriage more realistically and based on practical factors more than women.

    See here;
    “Men go into relationships based on logic of will this person accomplish what I’m trying to do? Is she fertile? Does she have good genes? Will she make me look good at the company event to my boss and clients? Do I love her so much that I am willing and able to deal with her debts and low income job?

    Young women should go into marriage less on feelings that I am so glad someone wants to commit to me, loves me, takes me out and buys me flowers, (my ex did all that) etc.”

    Her own ex-husband certainly got himself a woman that could hold not only her own, but his own also!

  • Hope

    I also feel sympathetic to her because I was shy and felt ugly in my late teens and early 20s, and my ex was also similar to hers in several ways, including violent and threatening to kill me. I made bad choices but woke up in time to still have a good life, because I was 25 when I left the ex.

    When I left I told myself I would be okay even if I spent the rest of my life alone and never had another love, because I could not live as I did. My advice to the Texas woman would be to not limit herself to one location. The love of my life lived in Utah while I was in Illinois. Now we make a wonderful life together in Utah.

  • Richard Aubrey

    We started the lax club in ’62. Little support from the U and didn’t go varsity for some years. Then it got Title Nined back to club status because they needed room for women’s lax and the women were considered incapable of running a club. I guess.
    An eclectic bunch of barbarians and a great group of guys. Went to a reunion a couple of years ago, with the earliest teams having a pre-reunion dinner. Asked the manager of the restaurant for the “loud old guys” and he pointed me to the rear. College town restaurant. As we left, I looked at the couples there and figured it was good the loud old guys were married because if we hadn’t been, the college guys would have been going home alone. Forty years’ additional age for a laxer isn’t enough of a handicap to make it fair.
    Thing is, if there’s a war on, they’ll more than likely volunteer for the combat arms, so don’t get involved until the war’s over.
    Speaking of war, friend of ours just got back from deployment to find his wife pregnant by some other guy who dumped her. His fault, I suppose.
    For an individual sport, see judo. The karate club spent a lot of time stomping around and yelling “HA!”, but were in lousy condition. And you have to pull your punches, which is poor training for fighting and doesn’t get the hard contact and large-muscle action necessary for emotional stability.
    As to political or cause shirts: “Here I am supporting that which all the Right Sort of People [as far as I can figure that out] support. Call me great.
    But, whatever you do, don’t ask me to support it with facts. Facts aren’t why I’m wearing this thing.”

  • Bully

    @HanSolo – I meet her requirements and I would not date her. Not a chance. I don’t care what she looks like. IME women that have these absolutely gigantic lists of dealbreakers/requirements have absolutely zero loyalty should things go south. It also shows a lack of tact and class and femininity and pretty much everything else that would make me want to date someone.

    Not to mention she is drastically overestimating how much her career and money counts towards her SMV. She’s presuming her career makes her a 9 on its merits alone. It doesn’t work that way for men, and it DEFINITELY doesn’t work that way for women.

  • @Hope

    We don’t know what kind of looks she brings to the table. And that’s the missing piece. If she’s fairly pretty or better then her odds rise.

    In your case, you weren’t looking for a man that was already earning more than you so you were more realistic. Plus, you are quite pretty in the photos I’ve seen so you could afford to be pickier and yet you weren’t being too picky because you looked at his potential earnings and more importantly at his heart.

    I’m not saying she can’t find such a guy but she would be much better off to be open to a guy that’s making, say, $60k or higher since that increases the number of men that would be interested in her and reliable husbands a lot.

  • Bully

    ““Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.”

    Bull! Plenty of fat women have boyfriends.”

    Had a minor freakout because “Bull” is something of a nickname in other circules I run in. Took a moment for me to realize this wasn’t addressed to me. 😛

    Just because they have boyfriends does not mean they’re still in a completely optimal state. If they were thin, all other things being equal, they might enjoy their relationship that much more. They might enjoy more investment from the man they’re with. I posted about this earlier – better looking women get more attention, more investment, etc. It’s just the way it is. At the same time, if they’re willing to forgo said benefits, I guess that’s up to them, but I’ve never really tolerated a desire for mediocrity in my own life.

    There’s a Facebook meme going around that shows a picture of a woman proclaiming “I’ve got extra pounds and I’m proud of who I am!” while using camera angles that minimize the sight of the extra fat. Quite curious, really.

  • @Hope

    Will you advise her to be more open on the income requirement too?

    She’s basically looking for a man who’s in the top 7% or so of male earners and when you eliminate all the men with kids, not single, or players, or not interested in her then it makes it a much smaller portion.

    I think it’s great to look for a hard-working and financially-responsible guy but unless she’s a real hotty at 34 then she should lower her expectations for how much he necessarily must earn…why?…because she’s eliminating a lot of good men.

    But that’s my advice. She can do as she wishes and see if she finds any men that satisfy her list that want her.

  • @Bully

    I agree on avoiding women with too long of lists. I think women should have lists. But make them realistic and focused on the most important things. And in the end, it comes down to whether a woman (or man) can get what he wants on his list.

    I think that from the male POV that a woman with too long a list will be perceived as someone who can never really just be pleased since you’re just barely measuring up. When I’m in love I’m very giving but I give inversely proportionally to how demanding she is.

    If the woman is really happy with small things and isn’t demanding tons of whatever then I will actually use my imagination and knowledge of her to do romantic surprises and make things really awesome.

    But if she’s always saying I don’t do enough and wants more then I’m more likely to just shut down and leave.

  • Should read “whether a woman (or man) can get what s(/he) wants on her (or his) list.”

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully,
    “Just because they have boyfriends does not mean they’re still in a completely optimal state. If they were thin, all other things being equal, they might enjoy their relationship that much more. They might enjoy more investment from the man they’re with. I posted about this earlier – better looking women get more attention, more investment, etc. It’s just the way it is. At the same time, if they’re willing to forgo said benefits, I guess that’s up to them, but I’ve never really tolerated a desire for mediocrity in my own life.”

    My experience was completely the opposite. The sexiest men with the most muscular and clit-twinge inducing physiques stepped to me when I was 15 pounds heavier. Not before, and not after. And they treated me like how they called me “Empress”. Good times! I’m even thinking of putting on some weight before my trip down south and sideways this summer. Calypso, anyone?

  • Bully

    “I know when I had gained 15 extra myself men that didn’t look twice at me before started checking me out. And they happened to be the most muscular/physically fit of any of the men that had ever checked me out.”

    As a fit man I personally find this baffling, unless the pounds went to all the right places (in which case you’re gifted on your fat distribution genetics; in that case, more power to you.)

    If the weight doesn’t go to your chest or WHR directly then it’s better to keep it off.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    It went to all the right places, however there was some distributed on my stomach as well. Again, these very masculine, bass-toned voiced men with beautiful skin smoothed over their naturally muscle toned physiques that age very well, when they age at all (post 60) were all over it.

    Diversity FTW!

    Care for a bowl of Cheerios?

  • Bully

    I suppose the equivalent to WHR for men would be the SWR (shoulder waist ratio). The higher that gets, the more attention I get myself. The guys you were chasing probably had a similar build.

    If you want to be as physically attractive as you can be, then you should be aiming to reach the ideal for these ratios – 1.618 SWR for men (phi) and .6-.8 WHR for women. If your body structure, genetics, and current composition such that gaining weight would be beneficial to that ratio, then by all means, do so.

  • ExNewYorker

    “d. Entrepreneur (+2 points)”

    *Laugh*
    Most of the “entrepreneurs I’ve come across (directly and indirectly) had a strong streak of risk taking, which wasn’t limited to their work life only. Even those who tended to be more monogamous tended to “trade younger” if they hit it big.

    And that’s not even accounting for the fact that many were “married” to their startups…

    I suppose if you got one after he wants to settle down, it might work, but it’s not a large population…

    • Even those who tended to be more monogamous tended to “trade younger” if they hit it big.

      That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Hope,
    “My advice to the Texas woman would be to not limit herself to one location. ”

    Yes, I advised here as much as well:

    “Your idea to meet men offline is a good one.

    I would also recommend foreign men or immigrant men who come from hard working, responsible, family oriented and non-slacker cultures such as South Asian (Indian) men.

    Next holiday you get travel out of the country.

    If however you never manage to meet a compatible guy, you can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full time possibly live in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance.”

    – Hope and others, Divorced in Texas posted under the The Unspun Truth about Marriage thread so you might want to go there.

  • Bully

    The “don’t be fat” meme gets around because losing weight, in all honesty, is what would help the vast majority of women be more attractive. Obviously, outliers need to follow a different template.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully July 3, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    I suppose the equivalent to WHR for men would be the SWR (shoulder waist ratio). The higher that gets, the more attention I get myself. The guys you were chasing probably had a similar build.
    ________________

    Hold on. Nowhere did I say I “chased” these men. I’ve never “chased” men. I said these men were giving me looks whereas before they never noticed me. I also said they stepped to me, I never stepped to them first, I merely reciprocated interest if I found them attractive and compatible enough.

    And yes, they had broad shoulders, along with the muscle tone that comes natural their ethnicity/demographic.

    I’m a big lover and supporter of Human Bio Diversity 😉

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully July 3, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    The “don’t be fat” meme gets around because losing weight, in all honesty, is what would help the vast majority of women be more attractive. Obviously, outliers need to follow a different template.
    __________

    I’m not talking about obese, but chubby and junk in the trunk definitely gets love from the most masculine of ethnicities. They are by no means “outliers” either.

    The morbidly obese should lose weight for their own health, however the chubby, thick and curvy can and do find plenty of love, often amongst the most sexually desirable men.

  • Sai

    “Tact?” Is that a salty snack food?

    (I kid, I kid)

  • Hope

    Hansolo, I think it’s a good idea to not put strict numbers on anything. I wasn’t looking for a guy specifically of any particular height, weight or income, but I did have a general idea of what I would have liked.

    Besides that though, I think her list is not the same as any random overly picky woman. It is a woman who was not picky enough in the past now seeing the harm of being a doormat and setting boundaries. I was like that so I can sympathize.

    She said she was chubby and that people told her she’d be pretty if she lost weight. I’m guessing she had lower self-esteem, which I also had. It can be tempting for her to forget about love now and just go for the practical, which I thought about as well, before I met my husband.

    Her best bet is probably a divorced guy with no kids who went through something similar and does not want a financially irresponsible spouse. My mother-in-law’s second husband is basically like that. They’ve been together for almost thirty years now, since her mid-30s.

  • Gin Martini

    I was at 0 until the end and hit +6! Go me!

    This is “awesome”… Like a Cosmo quiz.

    Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.

    Funny, all my spergy STEM friends seem to have married younger than you all here, and still are. Including me.

    Time’s ticking ladies!

    • This is “awesome”… Like a Cosmo quiz.

      Haha, that’s exactly what I was aiming for! Sometimes I take this blog too damn seriously, and so does everyone else. It’s a holiday week, I’m away visiting some friends, I thought a little light fun was in order.

  • Justin

    I love how a guy can score well on all of the questions and can still get away with saying “You can suck my dick if you want.”

    • I love how a guy can score well on all of the questions and can still get away with saying “You can suck my dick if you want.”

      You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.

  • Hope

    Bully, I don’t think it’s as simple as her thinking the career and financial success make her a 9. From the post it seems like she doesn’t want to get screwed again by a guy who wastes money. There are lots of high earners who are also high spenders. It sounds like she wants a high earner who is a high saver, who holds a long view toward financial stability rather than blowing all income on fun, eating out, etc.

    There are plenty of women who want a rich man to buy her jewelry, luxury brand clothes, shoes, purses, grand vacations, conspicuous consumption, etc. This woman sounds like she wants someone as responsible as she is, and frankly that is a very valid and serious deal breaker for marriage. Marriage is not just about SMV, remember.

  • JP

    “Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.”

    There’s nothing quite like being on the receiving end of a spergy joke at a black tie event.

    It’s pretty much endemic across the entire UMC, I think.

  • JP

    In fact, a partner I know of just got de-partnered, in part, because he had a STEM personality.

    Yay, STEM!

  • Fh fh

    I’m attracted to chubby if its not weird like huge love handles over a tiny ass or a fat neck. Something about the softness you just want to press against

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.”

    Embrace the a-word and s-word. They just mean we are more mentally evolved (rational thinkers).

    🙂

  • Gin Martini

    Who’s “we”, chickadee?

    My godson has it, but I don’t. I don’t need to be lumped in because of my degree, that’s degree-ist. People who want to make stereotypes on me are gonna get it back in spades. You of all people should know.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Drifting, 24

    Load of bull. The STEM crowd is very segmented. Engineers alone are known to pop out managers, and leaders for spin-offs.

    • Engineers alone are known to pop out managers, and leaders for spin-offs.

      JP recently posted the top paying college majors by mid-career, and IIRC 8 out of 10 were engineering.

  • Lokland

    @GM

    “Funny, all my spergy STEM friends seem to have married younger than you all here, and still are. Including me.”

    Just to clarify, it was me who made the spergling joke. Kinda like black people calling each other the N word.

    Similarly, my friends, myself and most of the young men I know in STEM today are neiter aspy nor failures with woman.
    However, if a woman is willing to disqualify men based upon having a degree… well let the amusement ensue. Especially considering a large portion of degrees issued to males overall are now STEM in one form or another.

    • Similarly, my friends, myself and most of the young men I know in STEM today are neiter aspy nor failures with woman.

      Same here – I know one person with Asperger’s and she’s female.

      Tech is the future, those guys (and girls) will have the last laugh. We’re not going to be able to do anything without them. Of course not all of them will be wildly successful. But a large portion of wildly successful people will be in tech.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    The inability to not see a premise through to its logical conclusion is considered normal and non s-wordy.

    Those of us who can see a premise through, step by step, to its natural and logical conclusion are considered s-wordy.

    See the “discussion” that essentially became a monologue on “religion” over at “The Surprising News About College Sluts” (the other s-word), because nobody else here is capable of seeing it through to its logical end.

  • Gin Martini

    Lok, I understand in-group vs. out-group insults. My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.

    Divorced in Texas is frankly… deluded. Possible, but very unlikely. She used the word “I” about 50 times before I lost count. Huge list of dealbreakers, hence, my comment of “join a harem” (which is mean, but as long as PJ is here, I will be a total shit).

    I think J did it, and found an unmarried older man at her age, but she was hot, DD, and model-thin all by her own admission. DIT is “in progress” with losing weight. We also have no idea if Mr. J met DIT’s income requirements.

  • Lokland

    @GM

    “My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.”

    And that really offends you?

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “Divorced in Texas is frankly… deluded. Possible, but very unlikely. She used the word “I” about 50 times before I lost count. Huge list of dealbreakers, hence, my comment of “join a harem” (which is mean, but as long as PJ is here, I will be a total shit).”

    You basically piggy-backed off my comment to her that preceded yours in which I advised her to, as a last resort…

    “If however you never manage to meet a compatible guy, you can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full-time possibly live-in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance.”

    I don’t think she’s deluded at all. She is not asking for a man to out-earn, out-save or out-perform her, she is simply asking for her EQUAL.

    This blog values “assortive mating” even if you don’t.

  • Hope

    Gin Martini, I only read the comment that was posted on this thread, and this part strikes me as not very deluded.

    “A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.”

    Apparently she knows guys who make good money. That’s not the main requirement. It’s financial responsibility.

  • JP

    “My godson has it, but I don’t. I don’t need to be lumped in because of my degree, that’s degree-ist.”

    I don’t have it, either, but I do have…the degree. The STEM degree.

    A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance…

  • College Kid

    Don’t mean to hijack the thread. but this girl I’ve been talking to for a little asked me out for 4th of July. but i’m pretty sure I have to come up with stuff to do. ideas anyone? I know we’re going to see fireworks at the end, but for the rest of the day…I’m at a loss. Help?

    • @College Kid

      I’m not sure of your location or weather forecast, but here are some ideas:

      Hike

      Picnic

      Swim – beach, pond, lake

      Grill/BBQ

      Bike ride

      4th of July parade

      Outdoors stuff is good if you can, followed by a meal, and then off to fireworks.

  • Bully

    “I don’t have it, either, but I do have…the degree. The STEM degree.

    A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance…”

    As do I.

    Had I any clue that it would be like this when I signed up for it I would have gone into something else.

    As it is, though, I’ve found that cultivating other non-STEM related aspects of yourself will aid that greatly.

  • Hope

    College kid, fourth of July means parades, BBQs, ice cream stands, outdoor concerts, and tons of activity everywhere. You should not lack for cheap and entertaining stuff to do. If all else fails, go to a local mall and hang around for the air conditioning and people watching. Have fun!

  • Mike M.

    Send Divorced in Texas over to me. The question being whether or not she can meet my standards. 🙂

    I suspect her job has something to do with her financial paranoia.

    She will probably need to move to better hunting grounds. And look for a STEM professional.

  • @College Kid

    Drive to somewhere nice like the ocean or an ice cream creamery out in the countryside. Or have a picnic in a park somewhere. Find some place with nice scenery and drive (or walk) there and then walk around there. Going to a nice and beautiful (but simple) place will add a sense of adventure and excitement plus offer an opportunity for some kissing.

    Along with this, think of some simple place that has good food or dessert or ice cream and go there and then take them to eat at your destination.

    For example, if you live in Boston, go by Boca Grande and get grilled chicken burritos for lunch and then go to Finale and get the flourless dark-chocolate mousse cake and take them to this quaint little bay with cliffs at Nahant and eat there…but keep an eye out for tow trucks. 😉

    I once shared a tub of delicious chocolate ice cream with a brunette babe but got too distracted by here and forgot about keeping an eye out and my car got towed. An old couple took us to the police station and an old police officer drove us to the towing company and the towing company drove me to the ATM to get the fat fee. Total ambience ruination!

  • I never went out with her again.

    But on the bright side, I took a different brunette babe there and made out with her on top of a rocky cliff with waves crashing below for a good hour and my car didn’t get towed and she became my girlfriend.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    PJ: “You can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full-time possibly live-in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance”

    She stated she can’t afford a kid on her own income in her area. If that’s the case, how can she afford a live-in nanny on top of that?

    Hope: “I only read the comment that was posted on this thread, and this part strikes me as not very deluded. – A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.”

    That’s just one part. But good catch, I missed this part in the wall of text, and only saw the part requiring 100k+. (how can it be both?)

    Even so, I still think its very unlikely to meet a man 35-40 who fits exactly this, plus, is never-married with no children. Men this age who fit all the dealbreakers, will probably be either players or total dweebs.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    JP,
    “A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance”

    Wow. In my circles you’d be first selected for, provided you were at least average looking and had a somewhat agreeable personality.

    Bully,
    “As do I.
    Had I any clue that it would be like this when I signed up for it I would have gone into something else.”

    OK, so which fields and degrees are not millstones around the neck?

    “As it is, though, I’ve found that cultivating other non-STEM related aspects of yourself will aid that greatly.”

    Wouldn’t you have to cultivate other aspects of yourself no matter what type of degree or job you got?

    Surely nobody here thinks they ARE their job, or that their job is all that their is to life, do they?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I was a starting O lineman in high school 🙁

  • Bed & Breakfast

    Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

    We really need to shut it down.

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.
    ______________

    Yep. And the wacko Manosphere is already hootin’ and hollerin’ about “Feminism’s War on Masculinity in the Form of Football” and how
    “Cultural-Marxist Feminazis Want to Feminize American Men by Phasing American Football Out & Pinko, Pussified Communist Inspired European Football (Soccer) In.”

  • JP

    “Surely nobody here thinks they ARE their job, or that their job is all that their is to life, do they?”

    Your job is essentially who you are in the sense that it determines your social rank in the local community or church.

    Meaning that you are presumed to be your job, in the sense that it signals where you rank.

    Medical specialists are the most beloved and presumed to be the highest quality person.

    If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    I was the one who copied and pasted Divorced in Texas’s comment here yet I did not see the requirement that her mate earn at least $100,000 per year.

    Where is it?

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.”

    Who wants shallow and snobby-assed friends like that to start with?

  • JP

    ““If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.”

    Who wants shallow and snobby-assed friends like that to start with?”

    Well, they would feel badly for you, so part of it would be pity, coupled with confusion and sadness. Kind of like if a CEO has a stroke and can no longer serve as a captain of industry. A form of sorrow as they mourned the loss of a dear friend who changed before their very eyes.

    They might try to befriend your children so that your children could know hope. They might try to help them avoid the fate of becoming a poor teacher and leading a life of despair.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    PJ: “I did not see the requirement that her mate earn at least $100,000 per year? Where is it?”

    Right here – “I search for single men 35- 40 without kids making 100k a year”

    There. Dunno if it’s a requirement, or just a statement of what she first looked for.

    I believe she’s saying she needs 100k *above* her current income (total 180k), to support a family of three. Unless she plans on retiring, and supporting the family on 100k. Not sure which.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    Sue: “For a guy to not have many hot female friends on fb requires effort. My kids and their friends have 1300 friends or more. The bar is very low for being friends on fb.”

    I think BB meant proportion, not absolute. If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… then the incidence is more common than random chance in real life.

    • Is Gimme Fountain Head (great name) another PJ moniker? I’m getting confused.

    • If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… then the incidence is more common than random chance in real life.

      That just tells me he hangs out with barflies, skanks and strippers.

  • Jayn Rand

    “They might try to befriend your children so that your children could know hope. They might try to help them avoid the fate of becoming a poor teacher and leading a life of despair.”

    I’d tell them to fuck off and burn in the hell that exists in emotionally based belief systems.

    Someone;
    ” Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.”

    Susan, “Interesting – I personally know about a dozen guys in these jobs at age 23, 10 of whom are in serious relationships. But most of them had 0 or 1 relationships in college. A lot of them were varsity athletes – Wall St. loves Div 1 athletes. Also, a lot more guys think they’re going to get these jobs than actually do. A lot of entitled, connected, not necessarily bright bro type guys want into the business. Some of them get in, but a lot of them can’t stay in. Several of the guys I know who graduated college in 2009 got the axe in March at bonus time.”

    – Susan, I think that commenters post may have been that those jobs suck a lot of time and life out of the person working in them.

    I know an investment banker who worked literally 16 hours per day. He married another investment banker who does the same. They have a live in nanny half the year and the other half his mother flies over and lives with them as the nanny. They see their toddler for about 1 hour every day.

    What kind of “life” is this?

  • Kaehu

    I was a rower in college (35 years ago). One rule that was strictly enforced, at least at my school, was absolutely NO drinking of alcohol during the fall and spring rowing seasons because it was believed to (and does) hurt performance (it was then legal to drink at age 18). You would be automatically off the crew for the season if someone reported you drinking.

    The other thing about rowing is that it forces you to be disciplined in your student life, because you were often practicing on the water several hours a day, and had to schedule your studies around that. So crew tended to attract jock/nerds, and a lot of pre-med and pre-law types.

    One problem with your thesis, however, is that most of us didn’t have much time for a girlfriend between studying and rowing.

    • @Kaehu

      One problem with your thesis, however, is that most of us didn’t have much time for a girlfriend between studying and rowing.

      Good point. Those 4 a.m. alarms certainly are not conducive to sleepovers. 😛

      I believe that today, it is common for athletes to abstain from alcohol before any competition. Many varsity athletes get drunk on Sunday nights as a result. 🙁

      A lot has changed in 35 years, unfortunately. (Sounds like we’re about the same age.)

  • JP

    “I know an investment banker who worked literally 16 hours per day. He married another investment banker who does the same. They have a live in nanny half the year and the other half his mother flies over and lives with them as the nanny. They see their toddler for about 1 hour every day.

    What kind of “life” is this?”

    A life of profound glory and awe.

    To be an investment banker is to be counted among the relevant. People who matter. People who count.

    Look around you on the streets at the irrelevant masses. Do you think that their voices run the world? Do you think that when they speak, life itself listens to their words?

    No.

    The investment banker, the venture capitalist, the hedge funder, the Fortune 500 CEO.

    These are the people who truly live life.

    They have achieved.

    These are the people who matter and without whom there would be no life worth living.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.”

    Didn’t you just say that if you had married any of the men you dated before your husband, you would have divorced them by now?

    What if the poor entrepreneur was in such a situation?

  • JP

    “Tech is the future, those guys (and girls) will have the last laugh. We’re not going to be able to do anything without them. Of course not all of them will be wildly successful. But a large portion of wildly successful people will be in tech.”

    Tech was the future in the past.

    Progress has a “reverse gear”.

  • Jayn Rand

    “If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… ”

    Generally F cuppers are on the heftier side.

  • Jayn Rand

    Susan, “Tech is the future”

    Yeah, for H1B visa holders 😉

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ran into a Div 1 hockey player who made the case–it was true for him–that the school’s hockey team averaged pretty smart because their serious practice started about two weeks before finals for the fall quarter. Winter quarter was, obviously, pretty busy. Wasn’t much fan pressure and alum pressure to keep semi-literate thugs in school for hockey, unlike the revenue sports.
    Pressler graduated 100% of the Duke laxers.
    That said, I helped a woman who’d blown a knee snowshoeing. As we were hobbling through the white and slushy, I asked about her knee. “I was a dancer.” Had had nine surgeries on the defective joint. Since talked to some folks who think only gymnastics is a worse orthopedic assault on the human frame. Football, they said, wasn’t in it. Weren’t talking about the head, admittedly.
    Also read something by a woman who had gone to see an acquaintance play lax, which is what caught my eye. Afterwards, she went out with him and four or five other guys to a local dive. In current parlance, the respect the others showed him–and presumably each other–brought the tingle. That was, of course, after the game, whose Indian inventors called “the little brother of war”. It wasn’t exactly a date…obviously…as much as it was some friends and a friend of a friend. They started a relationship shortly thereafter but I have no idea how it want. Lesson was friends and a friend of a friend is a good early venue. Low pressure, watch each other, see the guy’s friends and get a line of who he thinks is a good guy, not going to start making out at the large, round table.

  • JP

    “Is Gimme Fountain Head (great name) another PJ moniker? I’m getting confused.”

    She may be using three or four at this point.

    Her level of energy is increasing and her dynamism is beginning to allow her to expand her number of handles as she slowly conquers middle America with her wisdom tradition.

  • College Kid

    Thanks! I forgot to mention i’m a NJ native and i’m pretty sure it’s going to be hot tomorrow.

    A lot of the ideas sound great..i just have to figure out the logistics/locations.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    @sue “You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.”

    As an experiment, I just sent this, verbatim.

    Her response? “titfuck me instead”.

    Yep, it’s a real dealbreaker!

    (For the humor impaired… It means it’s not a deal-breaker, if it is wanted.)

  • Kaehu

    “Good point. Those 4 a.m. alarms certainly are not conducive to sleepovers.”

    Fortunately, in college I was in a part of the country where the weather was generally calm enough in the afternoon to row then (we generally practiced between about 4-7 p.m., given light conditions). However, when I went to law school I joined a rowing club that did practice early in the morning, with the result that I sometimes dozed off in my 8 a.m. Crimes class. Not good, considering that I was seated in the second row! Anyway, I graduated from college in ’78.

    • Anyway, I graduated from college in ’78.

      Me too.

      Re early morning rowing, the Charles River is full of boats at 6 in the morning. It’s actually beautiful to watch. I think very early practice is typical in the East, not sure. Unfortunately, neither of my kids rowed.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Her level of energy is increasing and her dynamism is beginning to allow her to expand her number of handles as she slowly conquers middle America with her wisdom tradition.”

    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Actually, since the last 72 hours I’ve changed my moniker 3 times only because the moniker I was using “Atlas Shagged” was unable to post comments. Today, B&B also became unable to post, they were not even held up in moderation, they just would not post. I don’t know if Susan is banning or what. I do know that just now a program that I have not downloaded just appeared on my pc, so maybe this pc is on the fritz or the Feds/CIA are hot on my trail because my Middle America Mission is proving successful.

  • For a college undergrad female, I’d say to just figure it out as you go, and develop what pilots call “situational awareness”. You will make mistakes, you will have your wins, you will have your losses, you will probably have your heart broken and you will probably break some poor guy’s heart.

    The emerging tactical situation on the ground—the “ground-truth”—will dictate the best approach.

    • I’d say to just figure it out as you go, and develop what pilots call “situational awareness”. You will make mistakes, you will have your wins, you will have your losses, you will probably have your heart broken and you will probably break some poor guy’s heart.

      Not bad advice, as long as she is granted fuck phantom immunity.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Same here – I know one person with Asperger’s and she’s female. ”

    That’s not surprising. Male Asperger’s tends to be mild but (relatively) common whereas female Asperger’s tends to be severe but rare.

    The opposite occurs for schizo/psychosis.

  • Jayn Rand

    Gimme Fountain Head July 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    @sue “You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.”

    As an experiment, I just sent this, verbatim.

    Her response? “titfuck me instead”.

    ___________________________

    Classy. Wow! What an impressive “culture”.

    And JP thinks Middle America doesn’t need my wisdom tradition mission?!?

    News Reporter to Gandhi:
    “What do you think of Western Civilization?”

    Gandhi:
    “I think it would be a good idea.”

    🙂

  • It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from Plain Jane/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.

    • It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from Plain Jane/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.

      And their commentary is getting more similar as well.

  • Jayn Rand

    Hope July 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from PJ/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.
    __

    That’s ok. According to the Advaita school of Vedanta we really ARE indistinguishable!

  • Maggie

    Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.”

    I did the college visit routine this past year and was surprised at how many of the college woman were heavy and this wasn’t just at Podunk U. Unfortunately, it mirrors what is happening in society in general.

  • Jayn Rand

    More 2 love!

  • Bully

    “The investment banker, the venture capitalist, the hedge funder, the Fortune 500 CEO.

    These are the people who truly live life.

    They have achieved.

    These are the people who matter and without whom there would be no life worth living.”

    If you say so.

    We come into this world with nothing and depart it with nothing but our deeds, good and ill.

    I’d prefer my deeds be a little more meaningful than “had a big bank account”.

    The key is to find balance and you will never find it working for 14 hours a day and sleeping for six.

  • Bully

    “OK, so which fields and degrees are not millstones around the neck?”

    Off the top of my head, medical, law, business, etc.

    “Wouldn’t you have to cultivate other aspects of yourself no matter what type of degree or job you got?”

    Well, yes, but a lot of degrees give you opportunity along the way to develop glib charm, sociability, etc. STEM rarely does. STEM is more about how things are, not how they appear. Which is fine for on the job but the world usually cares about the latter, not the former.

  • Fish

    @Susan
    “c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)”

    my biggest pet peeve EVER!! I see kids with Metallica or Iron Maiden shirts walking around and I think “dude, these bands have albums older than you!!”

    Of course I do like some older Black Sabbath which is older than me. . .

  • Fish

    “Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.”

    Maybe I see the bright side of things, but in visiting/interviewing for grad schools, I visited a BUNCH of schools: Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, Illinois, & Tulane. I saw a lot of “talent” on campus. Maybe it could be that I look for the best, or i am a sucker for the fashion of “tights as pants”, but I saw a lot of attractive girls.

  • Fish

    @Bully
    One of my best friends is an attorney, its starting to become a good way to get into a ton of debt and not get a job. I think overall STEM or business is a good way to go because there are jobs in those fields readily available.

    My little brother just graduated double majored in engineering & business, I keep telling him to look for jobs all over the country, he could make great money. In our city, there is not much in either area for new graduates . . .

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.

    As someone with a relative on the autistic spectrum, I can’t say I find it offensive, but it definitely comes off as very distasteful.

    I also find it interesting that it’s a still a socially acceptable slur in the overly PC environment of today’s world.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of solar power or “hug a tree,” lol. Not Young Republicans. Though that still beats Greek letters.

    “This is what a feminist looks like” = -10,000

    • “This is what a feminist looks like” = -10,000

      ROFL! I accept that!

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Having visited quite a few colleges, and hung out at two quite a bit, I was continuously amazed at how much thinner the women were than the general population.

    Agree 100%.

    Maybe college obesity rates have increased vs the past… but college girls are still WAY ahead of the general population in weight & attractiveness.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

    No doubt there’s going to be mounting pressure against the game as the future rolls on, but Hernandez has had gang affiliations dating back to his high school years in Connecticut. I have to believe that’s a much bigger factor than the physical tolls of the game.

    But to bring it back slightly on topic, it illustrates why major athletes are not the best bets. I have a few buddies who are/were major d1 athletes… They’re good friends and I enjoy hanging out with them, but I’d never want to see one of my female relatives or friends date any of them.

    • But to bring it back slightly on topic, it illustrates why major athletes are not the best bets. I have a few buddies who are/were major d1 athletes… They’re good friends and I enjoy hanging out with them, but I’d never want to see one of my female relatives or friends date any of them.

      Having raised two kids, I naturally had the experience of seeing a few kids in the community rocket to local stardom on the basis of their athletic ability. The best athletes in high school have generally grown up with their obsessed and aggressive parents on the sidelines critiquing their every play, constantly sent to camps for development during school breaks, etc. They develop astounding levels attitudes of entitlement and self-love. Every one of them was a nice kid at age 8 and a total asshole by age 18 – this goes for women as well as men, though the men got more attention, so they were worse.

  • Largo

    Fish, what about a “Bach” shirt, or something like that?

  • WRT the Greek letters, it depends on what fraternity they represent. I was in the vets fraternity in college. We didn’t have pledging or initiation; the fact that you’d served was initiation enough. There are also Christian fraternities. The point is that it depends on the fraternity the man belongs to; if he’s a member of a vets or Christian fraternity, then that should yield positive points… 🙂

    • The point is that it depends on the fraternity the man belongs to;

      I agree – I wasn’t thinking about other kinds of fraternities. There are also ones for scholarship. Though I would think it was kind of obnoxious if someone wore a Phi Beta Kappa t-shirt around.

  • Richard Aubrey

    A “cause” tee shirt is designed to help the wearer remember how to spell the cause. ’cause that’s about all an undergrad knows about any given cause, and if he knows more than that, it’s usually wrong.
    It’s a brag. Nada mas.

    • A “cause” tee shirt is designed to help the wearer remember how to spell the cause. ’cause that’s about all an undergrad knows about any given cause, and if he knows more than that, it’s usually wrong.
      It’s a brag. Nada mas.

      Here are some t-shirts I’ve seen on young guys in the last two days that meet my definition of “cause” or “values” related.

      Jimmy Fund Walk for Cancer
      Boston Strong
      I am the 99%

      I also saw this, which I thought was pretty funny:

      I Drink, You’re Cute

  • BuenaVista

    SW: “That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.”

    I realize that this a fairly unserious discussion, but I feel honor-bound, as a stolid sort, to take it seriously.

    I don’t know any (active) entrepreneurs who have the time to run around or trade-up; I know quite a few, and one in particular, who perhaps lack(ed) the time to properly nurture their marriages. So if they’re successful (i.e., have a liquidity event or two), I suspect it is the spouse with the time on her hands who will take the money and run.

    Also, entrepreneurs work in incredibly policed work environments (you have to employ HR police to keep the sexual harassment monster from infiltrating the unit), so the odds of the 14 hour day turning into a 14-hour day with benefits are extremely low. This is in contrast to the PE, VC, investment banker worlds where everyone is a self-proclaimed master of the universe and scratching whenever they itch.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t think I have ever wore a cause t-shirt, unless you count the Relay for Life stuff. That doesn’t really seem like a cause to me. sort of like “Go color Red!”

  • BuenaVista

    SW: football is done in 5-10 years because of Hernandez (and I assume the current focus on brain trauma). Also, never date a guy playing a traditional and/or violent sport (the new barbarians).

    While I don’t enjoy the NFL (homogenized schemes, grotesque injuries), I’m not sure that its reasonable to call the NFL “football” — as representative of how football is played through college, or why it has the social role that it has. All the money has turned it into something else.

    Worth noting is that riding a bicycle or skiing is much, much more dangerous. (And let’s not even get into mountaineering or back country skiing, where one takes life-ending risk — daily.) (Or aerobatic flying, in a flight show environment, where the 20 year mortality rate is nearly 100%.) Second, even NFL athletes live longer, and are healthier than those of the “safe” sport of major league baseball. Third, major sport athletes (save those at a jock mill like Auburn) graduate at higher rates with better grades than the student body at large.

    I played baseball and football in college, and one year of for-pay basketball in Italy, and have the shredded and repaired ankles, knee and shoulder to prove it. I’m rarely able to sleep all night because something starts to hurt. Nothing in my life has ever compared to a dozen tackles and an interception on an autumn afternoon. Nothing. And I don’t know any man who played the game who ever stops projecting his old self every time he watches a game — be it an 8-man game played next to a grain elevator in a town of 500, or Michigan-Iowa in front of 80,000. Since the objective injury data contradicts the media narrative of gladiatorial violence, I tend to view football’s opponents as people who are bringing a feminist or classist (do I repeat myself?) outlook. I think it’s a rejection of blue-collar style, the importance of male-bonding and brotherhood that emerge only in violent activities, and the sad fact that these athletes just don’t have to take shit walking down Avenue B, like everyone else does. In regard to this HUS context the plain fact is that a man with a brain who knows what a clean-and-jerk is has more access to women and always will.

    Hernandez is just an asshole who is lucky he wasn’t drafted by a team in a capital punishment state. There’s more than one Brady or Yanda or Barry Sanders or Dallas Clark or Ozzie Newsome or … for every Hernandez. Hernandez proves nothing other than some businesses do crappy due diligence on staff, or willingly overlook psychopathy in their most talented staff.

    Yay football. I was never scared playing football, but I sweat outcomes every time I am on my bike on an empty country road or dropping in at Silverton or flying a nonprecision approach into an untowered airport at night. What I’m doing these days is far more dangerous, and I’m hopeful that this metastasizing feminization of boys and men can be constrained.

    *****

    Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio, James Wright:

    In the Shreve High football stadium,
    I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville,
    And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood,
    And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel,
    Dreaming of heroes.

    All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home.
    Their women cluck like starved pullets,
    Dying for love.

    Therefore,
    Their sons grow suicidally beautiful
    At the beginning of October,
    And gallop terribly against each other’s bodies.

  • BuenaVista

    Is Jason Everman more interesting a man and relationship-candidate because he was a slender EMO musician with Nirvana and Soundgarden — or a Special Forces veteran of Afghanistan with a Columbia philosophy B.A.? Two forms of male brotherhood, here in one guy. If he settles down, will he be saying “yes dear” and disappearing nightly into his shop in the shed out back, or into the “man cave” in the basement? I doubt it. Do women really prefer the pussy with the man-cave?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/magazine/evermans-war.html?emc=eta1

  • JP

    “Off the top of my head, medical, law, business, etc.”

    Law is fine (if you get a solid job) until about age 40-45, at which point, if you don’t have a book of business or a nice gov-job or in-house, all of a sudden you find yourself on the associate scrapheap.

    My current problem is that I have way too much work.

    Also, I was making fun of “The Talent” with respect to IBanking. It’s been my theme since the practical joke that was 2008.

    I avoided I-Banking like the plague. As I did with NYC/DC or BigLaw.

  • BuenaVista

    Fish, if you wind up in Iowa City let me know and I’ll buy you a cocktail. In the midwest the only university towns I know of that compare are Madison and Ann Arbor. Most people really struggle when they leave. And as to the social scene for a young single man of your tastes: absolute bedlam.

  • SayWhaat

    It’s hilarious how one tongue-in-cheek comment predictably sent certain commenters into a tizzy.

    Honestly, you lot. My sister is STEM. Several of my closest friends are STEM. Hell, even I’m teaching myself some STEM-related material.

    It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.

  • BuenaVista

    On young men and a violent game:

    http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2009/11/17/1162349/big-two-hearted-iowa-river

    “… maybe it’s because they think guys like us should still play football. … and you will wish, if you are not careful, you were 22 again. But none of us ever gets to be 22 again.”

  • Vitor

    15-30: He’s a catch. Grab on and don’t let go – Hard to Get is a poor strategy.

    Which are the other strategies other than “hard to get”? I’m just curious here from the other side. 🙂

    • Which are the other strategies other than “hard to get”? I’m just curious here from the other side.

      I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

      Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

  • Jesus, that Everman guy has the goods

  • J

    My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.

    I picked it up at Roissy’s. Perhaps you should confront him as the term’s major popularizer.

    BTW, despite his crappy acedemic record, my son got a scholarship to a pre-engineering career exploratory program run by the engineering school that he’ll be attending in the fall. He is currently using his computer to “build a synthesizer.” I have no idea what that means, but he’s doing it “for fun.” Though very witty, he is quite the absent minded professor and has an intense focus on weird things. Luckily, he knows that his discussing those things ad nauseum is irritating to others. Foot on the spectrum??? Possiblly. I do feel that he is wired differently from average.

    I think J did it, and found an unmarried older man at her age, but she was hot, DD, and model-thin all by her own admission.

    Heh, heh. Still holding my own as an old broad, too.

    We also have no idea if Mr. J met DIT’s income requirements.

    DH didn’t have much when we married. He came from a poor family and had worked in one of those high satisfaction, high altruism, lower paying fields. He had mad people skills though and made the jump to the corporate world when we had kids and I quit working. The never married but still marriable thing was a fluke though.

  • Gin Martini

    You missed the part about in-group vs. out-group insults. A football coach calling a boy a whiny bitch, is different than his wife saying it. Now who’s spergy, bitch? 😉

    Yeah, you win, I know. But the question was, do you think DIT can replicate your strategy, plus get a richer man to boot, without your assets? I wasn’t trying to butter you up and sing your awesomeness, honest.

  • Bully

    “Law is fine (if you get a solid job) until about age 40-45, at which point, if you don’t have a book of business or a nice gov-job or in-house, all of a sudden you find yourself on the associate scrapheap.”

    I suppose that’s true, though every job has age discrimination. Even jobs like IT. It’s why I’ve set myself on a path such that if I’m 50 and no one wants to hire me, I’ll be just fine as is.

    Though I’ve pondered how much you can combat it by just looking after yourself.

    I’d wager a balding, sweaty, beer-bellied 45 year old runs into a good bit more age discrimination than a trim, fit, well-maintained 45 year old.

  • J

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

    They’ll outlaw boxing first.

  • J

    Now who’s spergy, bitch?

    Quite possibly me if I gave birth to one.

    Yeah, you win, I know.

    I do? Oh, goody!

    But the question was, do you think DIT can replicate your strategy, plus get a richer man to boot, without your assets?

    I don’t know. I really didn’t have a strategy, and I’ve been repeatedly by DH’s friends that I’m not “his type.” Judging by old photos of him with tall, bottom-heavy blondes, I’d say that was true. What we had in common was similar dysfunctional childhoods, intellectual interests and senses of humor. And, to repeat, neither of us has much money then. I wasn’t trying to bag a rich guy. I’m not sure how you do that intentionally.

    I guess my strategy was pass up men with wholesome backgrounds as “pollyanna-ish” until someone with complementary dysfunction shows up. Not one I’d recommend. Too much luck involved.

    I wasn’t trying to butter you up and sing your awesomeness, honest.

    That was my LAST impression!

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    My son was all conference football, basketball, and tennis in high school. Captain and MVP of the latter two. Also NHS, mentor to at-risk students and on the county teen jury. He and his buddies were in no way assholes.
    Part of this is that my wife would qualify for a PBK tee shirt if she were interested. When something bad happened, personnel-wise details too sordid to mention, at the school, my son was in the tenth grade, captain of the JV football team. The varsity captains came to him for advice.
    “Boston Strong” is a slogan, a cheer. I like it. But a related cause would be raising money for prosthetics.
    A cause is–Reunite Gondwanaland. Ban hydrogen dioxide. Stuff like that. Things that should be done, or undone, something.
    Remember the kid we’re talking about. It was two years ago his parents let him stay up late enough to watch Jon Stewart. Now he knows as much as the grownups. Unfortunately true of approx 52% of them, anyway.

    • My son was all conference football, basketball, and tennis in high school. Captain and MVP of the latter two. Also NHS, mentor to at-risk students and on the county teen jury. He and his buddies were in no way assholes.

      Of course not all varsity athletes are assholes. I’m talking about the odds here.

      And college athletics have changed a great deal in the last generation. So many of the athletes are pampered, spoiled, etc. A lot of them have poor character. I saw it firsthand in high school – you could literally predict personality and attitude based on the sport a guy played. You’d be wrong 25% of the time, but not enough to get rid of the stereotypes.

      Nearly every terrible story about underage drinking and sexual assault I can recall in the last ten years in my area occurred among varsity teammates and their groupies.

  • Emily

    I find the intent of the quiz a tad confusing. For example, even though I wouldn’t be personally compatible with Mr. 0-4 Alcoholic Drinks (I’m a bit of a lush :P), I’m sure he’d be an amazing and loyal boyfriend to any girls who do like him.

    I also have to agree with everybody else re: Mr. Entrepreneur. I also think it depends on the type of business he’s in. I know a couple of guys with tech startups who are devoted to their girlfriends (the girls also come from STEM backgrounds), but I suspect that things might be different with a guy who’s starting a DJ business.

    Also: this is more of a girl thing, but I am SO sick of people spamming my Facebook with their stupid photography “business”! : P

    • even though I wouldn’t be personally compatible with Mr. 0-4 Alcoholic Drinks (I’m a bit of a lush ), I’m sure he’d be an amazing and loyal boyfriend to any girls who do like him.

      The points attempt to address how likely a guy is to be on the relationship market. IMO, guys who don’t drink at all are less likely to be actively seeking relationships, and they’re also likely to want women who don’t drink at all.

  • HereIAm

    The main question that I have with Susan’s quiz is – why not just select for the actual traits you’re looking for directly (IQ, EQ, drive, earning potential, etc.)? After looking over the quiz again it appears that this it’s for a female undergrad who knows of a guy on campus that she might be interested in and has had maybe a few short interactions with or only knows from groups setting. That is, she doesn’t know much about him but has access to campus/Facebook/public/passing-by info about him, and a couple interactions. Further, this girl is assumed to not be very perceptive and wouldn’t know how to distinguish trait qualities and features even if told what qualities to look for (otherwise, again, why not just attend to the actual traits directly). Under this sort of scenario, I could see some value in this sort of quiz that focuses on poor substitutes that might suggest attractive qualities. But even still, Susan, I would include the underlying qualities that you’re trying to capture in the quiz items. That way she can continue to follow-up as she gets to know him and figure out if he in fact has those qualities.

    I would completely remove “He’s a catch” status to someone scoring 15-30. Even if he scored 30 on this quiz she still knows very little about the guy.

    Oh how I detest awareness/cause t-shirts/buttons/ribbon/etc.
    Jimmy Fund Walk for Cancer – IIRC charities have problems getting actual donations from people during things like this b/c people end up feeling like they already did their part by “participating”.
    Boston Strong – I have to agree with Richard here. This is a ra ra thing. Continually do things that makes your community strong, don’t wear some t-shirt.
    I am the 99% – most likely they are the 1%, that is the 1% worldwide b/c about 2/3rds of Americans IIRC fall into the 1% globally and that puts a very different light on whatever it is they are trying to convey with this slogan.

  • Richard Aubrey

    There you are.
    Couple of items: I think the scoring is for women who have no idea of the guy to see if they should try to get closer. Or, to put it another way, which guys not to bother with. Knock out half or two thirds. Then try to see how things go.

    Woops. Dihydrogen oxide. Ban it. Kills people, corrodes things.

    • I think the scoring is for women who have no idea of the guy to see if they should try to get closer. Or, to put it another way, which guys not to bother with. Knock out half or two thirds. Then try to see how things go.

      Exactly – it’s about filtering, which I say at the start of the post. 80% of success is filtering out poor relationship prospects.

  • HereIAm

    Richard,

    Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at. If it does have value (still hard for me to see it) it’s as a fast and frugal heuristic (that’s for Bastiat Blogger) which we are both saying. I can see a value in such a heuristic if it worked, but ultimately I think they have to develop real discernment (shout out to naturalistic decision making). But back to Sharon’s heuristic/quiz – I don’t think it’s very good even under the restrictions imposed and may provide false confidence.

    30 point college man:
    1 wears cause shirts
    2 eats lunch w/different size groups
    3 met at freshman orientation
    4 freshman
    5 occurs in February
    6 see at library occasionally
    7 plays college track/crew/tennis
    8 5-9 drinks/wkend
    9 holds eye contact, smiles back, and nods to your eye contact and smiles
    10 socializes among his and your friends with in group setting
    11 suggests hanging out in the daytime
    12 shows attraction/interest w behavior that is clear, not words
    13 1st tries to hold hands
    14 would commit to the right girl
    15 (entrepreneur NOW VACATED)

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “I suppose that’s true, though every job has age discrimination. Even jobs like IT. It’s why I’ve set myself on a path such that if I’m 50 and no one wants to hire me, I’ll be just fine as is.”

    Law is a strange beast.

    Remember, first you went to school and lost three years of earnings (and got $100,000 of debt).

    Next, you generally spend about five years trying to figure out what’s going on in practice, since you didn’t actually learn anything about actually practicing law in law school. This is presuming that you actually obtained employment.

    Now, you are about 30.

    In regular firms, you have about three to five years to come up with a major book of business at that point or you will be tossed out.

    I think that 30 is many lawyers’ peak earnings, particularly in BigLaw, where you should have hit about $250,000 in NYC/DC (although this will be ground down going forward). Much less for the bulk of attorneys who are non-BigLaw. Starting salary around here is $30,000 – $35,000. The guy down the hall from me was making less than his teacher wife for awhile and demanded his first raise by pointing out that he was paid less than his wife.

    I’ve personally been precisely flat since my first job (about the year 2000). I’ve just kind of gone up and down from where I was first hired, but always around the amount where I was first hired. And by “precisely flat”, I mean that if you added my earnings for all those years and divided by the number of my years of employment, the average would be my initial starting salary.

    It’s not “age discrimination” as you would find in a corporation.

    What occurs is that the number of legal jobs continues to decline and the number of lawyers continues to increase over time (legal jobs peaked in 2004 and 2013 has seen the most attorneys ever).

    If you go into business by yourself, you find that you have entered a saturated market where few people actually need your services.

    Lawyers are constantly trying to rip work out of other lawyer’s hands because there simply is not enough work to go around. It’s kind of funny to watch. In small (TV) firms, the classic move if you are an associate, is to shop yourself to a competing firm, go in to the office at midnight, toss all of the client files you were working on into a van, and start work the next day at a competitor.

    At corporate firms, you are generally trying to get the corporate client to come with you when you leave.

    I’ve seen so many train wrecks in terms of stupid lawyer tricks (in both larger corporate firms and small firms), it’s amazing. So, lots of lawyers are constantly making enemies of other lawyers.

  • Jayn Rand

    SayWhaat July 4, 2013 at 11:10 am

    It’s hilarious how one tongue-in-cheek comment predictably sent certain commenters into a tizzy.

    Honestly, you lot. My sister is STEM. Several of my closest friends are STEM. Hell, even I’m teaching myself some STEM-related material.

    It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.
    _____________________

    SayWhaat, didn’t you say be4 that the biggest a-hole you ever dated was a STEM guy?

    I’ve known a few a-hole ones too.

    Who the heck here is pimping the idea that STEM guys are “nice guys”?

  • Fish

    @BV
    I totally would have, but I ended up taking a different offer. I loved the sanctuary, great little bar. My only issue with Iowa was that I’m a huge Steelers hater & Iowa’s jerseys are like a carbon copy. I really liked all the people I met on my visit there. I also loved Madison, Wisconsin was actually my fav school of all I visited. Iowa is actually visiting the school I ended up enrolling at this year, I don’t know if you travel to any away games.

    I totally get what you mean about reliving, I watch UFC and my brain says “we could have totally done that (if they’d had weight classes in the late 90’s when I competed in Judo)”, then I remember I’ve had 6 concussions and a strong wind knocks me out.

    “Fish, what about a “Bach” shirt, or something like that?”
    +1 for liking classical music, -1 for wearing it on a t-shirt? I don’t really mind if a teenager wants to rock out to “number of the beast”, I just doubt highly that they’re actual fans.

  • Fish

    @Bully
    “I’d wager a balding, sweaty, beer-bellied 45 year old runs into a good bit more age discrimination than a trim, fit, well-maintained 45 year old.”

    I think it depends on your level. If you’re at the mid-upper management level, you’re probably fine. I know a lot of guys in the investments industry that had a lot of problems post 40 because even though they were making a lot of money, its basically sales and not far removed from entry level.

  • Bully

    @JP

    Very informative post, thanks for explaining. I’m kind of glad that I went into a degree/school that required little upfront investment (comparatively). Granted, I started in 2001 and got locked in when tuition was still somewhat reasonable. I think even regular undergrad degrees might be far more crazy expensive today, even after adjusting for inflation.

    I might not make as much on paper as a big law type but I’m glad for the advantages that I do have (job security, no debt, which means I can get my income into interest bearing investments earlier, etc.) I guess agility is just as important as raw income from a paycehck.

  • Bully

    I’ll also add that my employer (a Fortune 500) frequently hires people even in their 40s and 50s for our entry level positions. It seems that tech is a lot friendlier in regards to age, at least in my field.

  • @Bully and Fish

    I’m glad I graduated with no debt. I did a PhD in physics and then went into management consulting. Some of my coworkers had huge MBA debts and so they felt a lot more stress than I did.

  • Bully

    I suppose that’s another variable to consider when choosing a career path; whether the interest on debt + opportunity cost of not investing those same debt payments sooner rather than later will be greater than the pay increase from incurring that debt.

  • Bully

    It feels like law in particular has a frightfully small window to make as much money as you possibly can to pay off debt before you end up on the scrap heap.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ” Every one of them was a nice kid at age 8 and a total asshole by age 18 – this goes for women as well as men, though the men got more attention, so they were worse.”

    I know two professional athletes.
    One is an NFL quarterback who is a pretty nice guy, pretty wife, three kids.

    Another is an NHL player (my cousin actually). Biggest prick on the planet.

    Certain types handle fame and fortune better than others.

  • Lokland

    “Though I would think it was kind of obnoxious if someone wore a Phi Beta Kappa t-shirt around.”

    Wait. The Greek letters actually stand for something in a recognized code?

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.”

    Couple Things.

    1. As to why its inappropriate. Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.

    2. No one has suggested STEM guys are the best boyfriends. Merely arguing against the claim that they cannot be based upon their degree.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Yes, the guy who looks most like a refrigerator has what it takes.”

    Despite your insistence that all men not walking out of concentration camps are unacceptable for mating and generally bad people that are incapable, most of them are doing just fine and have been for millions of years.

    • @Lokland

      Despite your insistence that all men not walking out of concentration camps are unacceptable for mating and generally bad people that are incapable, most of them are doing just fine and have been for millions of years.

      First, I do not appreciate concentration camp humor.

      Second, you’ve misunderstood (again – this is becoming a bad habit). We were specifically discussing the selection criteria for playing football.

      Third, the research suggests that a) women do not find hypermasculine men attractive, because high T signals poor partnering ability and b) males and females in the top quintile of the SOI have much higher rates of cheating and divorce.

      My job is to share information on the best strategies for successful relationships. The single most important strategy is aggressive filtering up front. Most women will never realize that, and I actually don’t care. None of this is personal to me.

  • Lokland

    @Susan


    Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

    There are a lot fewer +2s, and the competition is a lot stiffer. There’s also more of a risk of mate poaching with a +2, as well as the guy developing a smirk over time.”

    This leads to multiple questions.

    So the +2 is the higher risk strategy but higher payout. How is that any different from pursuing an athlete (higher status, lower chance of success)?

    Similarly, if those guys are higher in value how are the women not getting them said to be not settling for the +1 category?

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat, didn’t you say be4 that the biggest a-hole you ever dated was a STEM guy?

    No, I have never said this.

    “It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.”

    Couple Things.

    1. As to why its inappropriate. Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.

    That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.

    The only people getting wound up are you guys. 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    Alright, enough with being bored on vacation. Enjoy yourselves, lol.

  • JP

    “I know two professional athletes.
    One is an NFL quarterback who is a pretty nice guy, pretty wife, three kids.”

    And he is going likely going to *hate* life in his later middle age.

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “It feels like law in particular has a frightfully small window to make as much money as you possibly can to pay off debt before you end up on the scrap heap.”

    Mainly because of increasing supply into a shrinking market.

    In fact, it maps extremely well to the female fertility window in humans. Once you are at the age for a high-risk pregnancy, your LMV is distinctly declining.

    As a general rule of thumb, 5 years out, lots of jobs, 10 years out, fewer jobs, 15 years out, still some jobs, but significantly fewer, and at 15+, you are on the cliff.

    Another problems is that a law degree makes you overqualified for a *ton* of jobs, so people often leave it off their resume when they are trying to find work.

  • JP

    Vacation?

    This is a work day. My schedule is stuffed to the gills starting in 30 minutes.

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “I suppose that’s another variable to consider when choosing a career path; whether the interest on debt + opportunity cost of not investing those same debt payments sooner rather than later will be greater than the pay increase from incurring that debt.”

    The problem is that the income projections in law are basically fraudulent or unknown.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.”

    This seems rather basic.
    Everytime I get together with my friends there is an Ahkmed joke and/or ‘did you attach the bomb to my car yet?’ within about 3 seconds.

    I would never do the same to a stranger.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Today was supposed to be a vacation day. Then it became a work day. I hope it doesn’t become worse.

    Not exactly this but a related topic came up yesterday at the 4th of July party. Why do girls always talk about match-making and guys? Are you aware that the Chinese are mobilizing in Xinjiang, the Russian have withdrawn from Tartus, and Mursi has been overthrown?
    Whatever.
    Anyways!
    They started talking about one particular guy.
    Oh X and X is cute.
    No X BECAME Cute. He really knows how to dress!
    *mutual nodding*
    I happen to know X, have for 6 years or so, friend of a friend and so on. And it’s true, the guy knows how to dress. Physically? No change. Although he does go to the gym some more.
    He also is a STEM guy, who is SLIGHTLY “spergy.” By which I mean, if we play pictionary or something, he will not understand all the references a normal person will, but he might understand what the Gulf War is.
    FWIW, most people’s defintion of “spergy” falls along that line *eyeroll*

    To me though, it was obvious this guy had no real flaws, going on 6 years ago, and it was obvious that he could probably improve his looks with SOME effort and that would happen over time. And I have seen this process again and again with many guys, being as I am now 26 and all and increasing SMV and etc.

    It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market. And note that, in finance, “Alpha” isn’t a dominant guy, “Alpha” are the risk-free gains you make, by buying something far, far, far cheaper than what you should have paid for it.
    There is ginormous “Alpha” here for anyone smart enough to realize it.

    “beta” is the riskiness of the asset. Market goes up 2%? This stock will go up 10%! on the other hand, market goes down 2%, stock goes down 10%. High risk, high reward asset…beta strategy 😉

    Over time, the market always adjusts, and what once generated considerable Alpha, is now a correctly priced stock sensitive to market swings, IE, high Beta.

    Good example would be my Jersey Shore friend, who was never that way in college, but slowly evolved into that over time, now has a good amount of attention, and is now a correctly priced asset. Not only that, but the slutty girls who are giving out sex are essentially tying to buy on margin and pushing the stock sky-high, which in turn encourages more margin-buying, and it will all end in tears when someone makes a call and you don’t have the assets to back up what you promised.

    It appears, if women are the buyers of an asset, that provides a stream of goods, that most young women are as incapable of judging the market as mutual fund managers.

    You have many women who do not do their own independent pricing, but instead chase returns.
    You have many women that instead of doing their own analysis, watch TV and think they have learned what a “good man” is.
    You have many women who are desperate for a “high value” asset and are trying to buy on margin.
    You have many women that see giant firms go under time and time again and decide to hell with the market.
    You have many women that try to pursue a diversification or “life-splitting” strategy.

    Ultimately, not an efficient market in any way.

    Obviously NAWALT.

    And that’s actually encouraging. For the women who are NOT like that, massive arbitrage, massive free alpha. The proper young lady who can evaluate a young man intelligently earns SMP returns equivelant to that of the richest kings.

  • Sai

    @ADBG
    “Are you aware that the Chinese are mobilizing in Xinjiang, the Russian have withdrawn from Tartus, and Mursi has been overthrown?”

    Hey now, I follow the news, but I don’t enjoy talking about it in public because
    a) it’s too likely to lead to somebody arguing over politics and I don’t want to do that in public
    b) it gets me into a pitch black mood and I have to continue thinking up a strategy for killing as many invaders as I can before doing myself in somehow to avoid capture (I have spoken to my dad about this and he seems to agree I’m better off dead quickly than tortured and gang-raped and starved and then dead anyway)

    “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market.”

    Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?
    Also, how long before payoff occurs?

    (The way you put it -“high risk high reward” sounds like gambling, and I don’t enjoy gambling because I lose way too often)

    …There’s something I just typed I feel I should probably apologize for. What it is and how many of them, I’m not sure.

  • @ADBG 219

    Good comment about being a value investor vs. a momentum investor and applying that to attraction and relationships.

    Preselection basically wants others to confirm that there’s enough value there (the price has started to rise) before entering a bid.

    If a woman can catch a man right as he’s starting to have his value be recognized (price go up) then it can be a useful “investment” strategy but if she waits too long until his price has risen so much that he is likely overvalued then it will likely have a poor payoff for her.

  • JP

    @Sai:

    “Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?”

    You don’t know this. You’re supposed to be finding someone you are compatible with.

    However, I will try to answer this question:

    (1) Avoid lawyers; (2) See out doctors/dentists/PA’s/teachers seeing administrative responsibilities.

    “Also, how long before payoff occurs?”

    It’s a human relationship, not a market transaction.

    “Payoff” is the relationship experienced as a pleasurable link between the people in the relationship.

    However, as with my answers above, payoff will occur approximately 5 years after the person beings practicing medicine/dentistry. For the PA, it will happen about a year or two after practice begins. For the teacher, it will begin once a principalship is achieved.

  • Fish

    @Beta Guy
    “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market. ”

    2 problems with this strategy. The first Sai pointed out, sometimes a penny stock is just a penny stock and that’s all it will ever be worth. The second problem, what happens when the guy’s value rises and he now wants to upgrade? Its akin to what BB said about values changing in the face of scarcity of assets. Would the guy’s mentality change in the wake of increased choices? Both situations point to the biggest challenges fund managers face (and in the SMP), proper valuation of assets is REALLY hard. DCF and other models aren’t fool-proof or 100% accurate. One of my favorite quotes seems appropriate “No plan survives the battlefield.”

    @Sai
    I agree with you on both points. I keep my news watching to sports, finance and sometimes when people start blowing up facebook over something. Financial news is pertinent to my job, sports I enjoy, anything else does not improve my day.

    Re: turd polishing
    You hit the nail on the head here. I’m not advocating that women should “buy on margin”, but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I believe one of the biggest problems in the SMP is mis-valuation. Mis-valuation of both yourself and the other person. If you’re rMV 8, find a guy who is RMV 8, you have no reason to go after a 5, hope he will turn into a 9 and be happy with you. If you’re a 6, find a 6 and be happy, or improve your own value and find a 7-8.

    Just like in real life, trying to strike it rich on penny stocks will more often than not lead to a lot of wasted time and money. It is gambling even if it is in the guise of making more money (or building a trophy spouse). . .

  • JP

    “Today was supposed to be a vacation day. Then it became a work day. I hope it doesn’t become worse.”

    The office is pressuring me to close it, since I’m apparently the only attorney in the office.

    There are a lot of them, along with a toddler, and only one of me. I don’t know if I can hold them off.

    I’m going to have to do recon and see if I have any reinforcements.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    JP,

    This month was a 340b adjustment month for us.

    See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340B_Drug_Pricing_Program

    What a headache.

  • BuenaVista

    “Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth? Also, how long before payoff occurs?”

    The materialism, not to mention the implication that men are opaquely (and natively) ‘turds’ and marrying them involves assuming that risk, is overwhelming here. This frame treats a mate as a mere utility, ignores the transcendence that describes a loving relationship, and reduces love to a random walk down Wall Street. If phrases like ‘in sickness and health, in good times and poor, until death do us part’ are meaningless, then I’d advise a life of amorous (and amoral) day-trading for modest rewards — not any sort of value investment.

    To extend the metaphor, Buffet always asserts the importance of going all in, and having a clear set of attributes (in his case, a simple business run by longterm managers, intrinsic high cash flows derived from a defensible market position) that determine value. It sounds like you are more of a gold-digger/day trader in outlook, if not a person playing relationship roulette. So it would seem that one necessary attribute for a longterm relationship is the mate’s naivete and capacity to be ‘polished’ by his spouse, which would be you. Of course, guys like that are everywhere, but they’re not going to give you the ‘payoff’ that you feel is your due. The ones who will pay off have too much on the ball to get involved with someone who presumes each man is a turd until he proves otherwise, or who has a timeline on her liquidity event.

  • JP

    Today is “homeless client day”, apparently.

    Obamacare is so toast.

  • @Susan

    I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

    Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

    Good advice!

  • Fish

    My understanding in reading the blog here (in which Susan has delivered a consistent message) is that it is better to be more conservative and potentially filter out some “good” candidates than it is to be too lenient and let in some “bad” candidates. I don’t think Susan ever said there aren’t good examples of any “type”, but her message is to play the percentages and avoid “types” which have a high percentage of members who are not conducive to LTR’s.

  • ADBG “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market.”

    Sorry, but even though I did this with my husband, it’s completely idiotic to do this solely on “market value.” I would have been dumped a long time ago if I was merely “acquiring valuable assets” rather than being genuine and loving. Intelligent men have a very keen nose for sniffing out women who don’t truly love them.

    Sai “how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?”

    Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

    • Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

      +1

      Note what is in this list, and what is not.

  • Sai

    @JP
    If you feel they want way too much from one man right now and you can’t give the people what they want… they’ll understand. (I think. This sounds like one of those times I need to be there to really get it.) Good luck.

    @BuenaVista
    I deserve everything you said in that post. I guess I should have also said there are at least as many female turds as male turds. (I once told a guy I couldn’t be with him, because he said his friends dared him to approach me while I was nothing but a huge ball of issues and would have brought him no pleasure.)

    I fear being useless or worthless or penniless, and that tends to spill over into how I look at others, especially those with whom I might live for a long time. I don’t ever want to get divorced unless there’s cheating, hitting or crime involved, so I need to make sure I lower the chances of us being one of those couples where each spouse dislikes the other for 40 years and can’t wait to be widowed. I won’t ask for something I myself am unable to offer (which is why I’m not a history major; I like history but couldn’t figure out how I’d eat).

    As for the economic terms -I’ve internalized things like SMV, MMV, appreciating/depreciating asset… I thought people saw me the same way, relationship-wise, so sorry for projecting.

  • Sai

    @Hope
    I just saw your post! Sorry… and thanks for helping.

  • JP

    @Sai

    “If you feel they want way too much from one man right now and you can’t give the people what they want… they’ll understand. (I think. This sounds like one of those times I need to be there to really get it.) Good luck.”

    Huh?

    I don’t understand what you are saying.

  • Sai

    @JP
    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work.

  • Sai

    D’oh

    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work, and somebody was trying to get you to shut things down for the day.

  • @Sai

    I think it’s important to remember that all of this market discussion of mating and dating can be insightful and helpful. It can offer us some good things to think about when we’re meeting someone, to filter out “turds.” It can also offer us tangible things to improve on.

    But these ideas are just a model, a map, a framework. They are not reality itself and so while keeping some of these things in mind it’s important to also not become so paralyzed by over-analyzing.

    In the end we can study the pool all we want and avoid the deep end or the dangerous rocks in the corner but if we want to swim at some point we have actually dive in (or more gently enter if you please).

    I think it’s possible to analyze things in cold market-like ways when detached from everything and yet be open to feel and live love when the moment arises.

    I think that having some of the market-analysis insights can help us improve ourselves and choose better without necessarily making us so cynical or cautious that we never dive in.

    Dive…but choose well.

  • JP

    “D’oh

    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work, and somebody was trying to get you to shut things down for the day.”

    I was semi-joking.

    I’m stuffed with new clients, so I have to meet with them.

    Mostly I just need one person here because many of my clients have significant psych issues, hallucinations, paranoia, et al. I have the one person, so I’m good. Everyone else went home (I’m not sure why we are open today).

    I just hate it when they close the office and I’m meeting with random psych client, because then I’m alone with a person who may or may not be in contact with external reality.

  • Fish

    @Sai

    “As for the economic terms -I’ve internalized things like SMV, MMV, appreciating/depreciating asset… I thought people saw me the same way, relationship-wise, so sorry for projecting.”

    Some do, most don’t. Actually, I could say that most do, but they arent aware of how their brains are processing it. I happen to love to look at things from that lens because I am very quantitatively oriented. There’s nothing wrong with trying to assess value as long as you remember it is only one side of the coin. It’s like baseball scouting. Sabermetrics became popular, but teams that were successful combined them with “old fashioned” scouting so they could see the whole picture.

    What Hope said about looking at values is important. I would equate that to one side of the coin and something that is impossible to quantify. The other half of the coin; looks, experience, chemistry, can be quantified very easily. I think the key to success is being able to take in all this data and filter effectively. I think its much like anything, the people who are most effective are the ones who can process the most data effectively and use it to make the best decisions. . .

  • In college I wore a shirt with the Three Stooges on front. I used to tell people I was all of them rolled into one guy.

  • @Fish and Sai

    I agree and think that people are subconsciously judging how attractive and compatible someone else is and that gives rise to feelings of attraction and desire to be with the person.

    Someone who falls in love with someone does so largely based on subconsciously having their various SMV and MMV buttons pushed. There is likely some conscious thought and acceptance that goes into it too.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trying to take things apart to understand them but we have to remember that excessive examination in the moment will be very much like taking apart the gadget (either us or the other person) and will impede it from functioning.

  • Escoffier

    Emily, don’t rule out the teetotalers. I had a rather large wine collection when I got married and my wife doesn’t drink. I tried out some very good stuff on her and she hated all of it. Oh well, it saves us money and my cellar goes a lot further. In fact, when we got married she said, “You just doubled the size of your cellar.”

    There are benefits!

  • Hope

    Fish, how do you quantify chemistry? It seems far more subjective than, say, intelligence.

    In my own case, my attraction “meter” went up higher and higher as the guy possesses more and more of those character traits I mentioned. I don’t really care for the physical as much as the intangibles. Maybe where other women run into trouble is that they go for the physical (Sensing on the MBTI) over the metaphysical (iNtuitive on the MBTI).

  • Gin Martini

    BV, not Sai. You’re sort of new here, she’s using the words but doesn’t view men that way.

  • JP

    “Maybe where other women run into trouble is that they go for the physical (Sensing on the MBTI) over the metaphysical (iNtuitive on the MBTI).”

    I prefer thinking of myself as a “mystic hack” rather than an “introverted intuitive”.

    It uses less letters and It’s much more explanatory!

  • Re: value investing. I am an algorithmic futures trader, but a few years ago I started looking at equities because some of our HF clients wants us to consider running stock portfolios. I exhaustively tested a bunch of value strategies that tried to find a “great company at a great price.”

    So you would basically have a two-factor investment strategy containing one performance metric set that was allegedly good at identifying great companies, and another that was good at identifying cheap valuations. Combining the two metrics would allow you to list, say, the S&P 500 by their value desirability and then invest in the top ones.

    Greenblatt’s “MagicFormula” may be the most systematic published system for this kind of value investing, but of course there are many.

    The interesting thing is that if you decompose the performance and just buy the cheapest stuff with no regard for trying to determine quality, the cheap-only strategy outperforms the two-factor cheap + quality one (by over 200 basis points). This was true of Greenblatt’s stuff, Graham & Dodd variations, etc. A former Marine Corps officer-turned-finance-quant named Wes Gray found the same thing. The effect obviously depends a bit on the metrics used, but the underlying phenomenon being captured to generate the returns is the well-studied mean-reversion propensity in the equities market (this general approach will NOT work with commodities).

    I am not sure if this finding would carry over to the campus SMP. If it did, it would mean that a woman should target the most Aspie STEM and ride his mean-reverting penis as he rose to higher SMV, and avoid the football-playing fraternity golden boy who was destined to crash.

    I can mildly support a version of the mean-reversion story: in college, I played football and ran track, was a Pike, and was in Navy ROTC. My ROTC friends were the most socially challenged and mocked of the three, but since then they have vastly outperformed all but a handful of members of the other two communities. While the commissioned officers were flying F/A-18s, leading Marines, serving on submarines, etc., my fraternity brothers and most of the athletes tended to get extraordinarily dull, soulless, adventure-killing cubicle jobs after college.

  • Mike M.

    You may not be interested in the news…but the news is interested in you. Sticking your head in the sand is a recipe for disaster.

  • Mike M.

    And I’ll add that if an interest in current affairs and a disinterest in pop culture is all it takes these days to be considered “spergy”, I cheerfully admit it. But if following pop culture is your life, I pity you. It’s pretty thin stuff.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “First, I do not appreciate concentration camp humor.”

    It wasn’t humour. My first job involved working for a company who had a large mural of a concentration camp on the front wall (past the public area). It was meant to represent evil we should never do.

    I found it startlingly similar to that Harding guy in the Jesus pose you posted.

    Though I’ll concede it was in poor taste. I’m sorry.

    “Third, the research suggests that a) women do not find hypermasculine men attractive, because high T signals poor partnering ability and b) males and females in the top quintile of the SOI have much higher rates of cheating and divorce. ”

    I think you are misrepresenting the average football player who is neither extremely above average in T nor likely to be in the top quintile of SOI.

    Most of them are normal guys with normal levels of T.

    Extrapolating from a few extreme examples (QBs) onto a whole team seems quite silly.

    (Also, an important note, athletics are far, far less important in Canada than the US. There are no full ride athletic scholarships (illegal I think). Looked it up quick, they seem to be capped at one semesters tuition (or thereabouts). Not true of academics where they can pay you to go to school plus rent and booze money. Different set of experiences creates different types of kids.)

    ——————-

    “The single most important strategy is aggressive filtering up front. Most women will never realize that, and I actually don’t care. None of this is personal to me.”

    Could we not also draw an extrapolation then that the meatless types are also likely to cheat?

    If they are the descendants of the guys who couldn’t go hunting there mating strategy would be dependent upon having children with more than one woman, no?

    Or, IOW, why is your personal preference (nothing wrong with having one) be placed as higher moral beings (the part I disagree with) than others?

  • JP

    @Mike M:

    “And I’ll add that if an interest in current affairs and a disinterest in pop culture is all it takes these days to be considered “spergy”, I cheerfully admit it.”

    “Spergy” generally means that you only use your left brain and simply ignore the fact that your right brain exists and it’s actually important to use it.

    It really has nothing to do with the issue of the lower mind or the higher mind, which is your point.

    For example, it would be nice if PJ would use her right brain periodically to make her commentary better.

    Kind of what this book is about:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-His-Emissary-Divided/dp/0300188374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356721210&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Master+and+the+Emissary

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ BB

    I am not sure if this finding would carry over to the campus SMP. If it did, it would mean that a woman should target the most Aspie STEM and ride his mean-reverting penis as he rose to higher SMV, and avoid the football-playing fraternity golden boy who was destined to crash.

    Would this actually surprise anyone? Every person alive today is the result of billions of years of evolutionary success. We are essentially playing in the All-Star Game of Human SMP/RMP dynamics.
    This should apply doubly-so for college students. Don’t most of the staistics show that college students will marry, stay married, and be happily married too?
    I am not saying you need to get with the most disgusting or mean person on the campus. However, if SMP were like the NBA, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are getting groupies like crazy while Larry Bird gets occasional stares for being slightly less cool, and Bill Russel gets COMPLETLEY ignored because only a moron puts someone 6’9 at center.

    Jeremy Lin has performed admirably well and had a spurt of Lin-Sanity that practically only Hall of Famers could achieve. The Knicks never gave him a shot because he was a skinny STEM-Y Asian dude from Harvard, and everyone KNOWS he can’t play basketball.

    Just like everyone KNOWS those Sperg-y STEM guys are totally hopeless with women and could never be a good boyfriend. There are just no good men out there. It’s because Chivalry is dead.

  • Jayn Rand

    ” Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.”

    “That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.”

    – But would the disabled or those related to/caring for them take offense? That’s the point here.

  • BuenaVista

    “We were specifically discussing the selection criteria for playing football.” [i.e., refrigerator-sized dudes].

    Actually D-I football players at almost any position are extraordinary athletes first. We’re talking 300 pound guys who can put both hands on the rim, if not dunk (30″ vertical); we’re also talking 175 lb corners who run faster backward than a tennis player does forward — who will also blow up a 300-pounder to seal the edge. It’s also a very complicated game; I don’t think there are many dumb, fat guys playing football successfully at a high level. Last it’s also a developmental sport and in most good programs it takes three years to develop the strength and technique to see the field. It’s certainly a more demanding existence to pursue than, say, rowing.

    I’m probably being annoying. But it seems odd, this animus toward the game, and filtering in this fashion is the same as filtering out anyone who’s last job was “staff sergeant” — when his prior job, unremarked, was “Soundgarden.” Most people reveal themselves pretty well over a 30 minute coffee date. That would be my filter: half-an-hour of conversation vs. an avocational label.

    Sai:

    We tend to inherit and make manifest our worst fears, if we dwell on them. No person is “useless or worthless”, and certainly not anyone writing complete sentences here. Perhaps if you can convince yourself of that, men and their risks won’t seem so threatening. I was never happier in life then in the 200 s.f./fifth floor walkup I lived in once upon a time and that is the comfort I take when contemplating the risks and curves that life or a career or relationships impose. It’s really not that hard to assure yourself of an interesting and independent existence, prior to making that existence remarkable, with or without a companion.

    Anyway, the worst things in life (as is true with the best) are not material in nature. (I prefer to only proselytize for football, but I will say too that as a cradle Unitarian, I regret the decades I spent cultivating a unilateral self-reliance, as though I were capable of an immaculate, impregnable independence. But, Donne: no man is an island, etc. Bad stuff will happen, that’s just the way it goes.)

  • Jayn Rand

    For years now people have been blogging and commenting on the same subject matters and its seems that nothing has been made simpler.

    So here…

    WHY COMPLICATE LIFE?

    Missing somebody? …. Call
    Wanna meet up? …. Invite
    Wanna be understood? …. Explain
    Have questions? …. Ask
    Didn’t like something? …. Say it
    Like something? …. State it
    Want something? …. Ask for it
    Love someone? …. Tell it

    Life is short. Keep it simple.

    • Missing somebody? …. Call
      Wanna meet up? …. Invite
      Wanna be understood? …. Explain
      Have questions? …. Ask
      Didn’t like something? …. Say it
      Like something? …. State it
      Want something? …. Ask for it
      Love someone? …. Tell it

      Life is short. Keep it simple.

      +1 for PJ.

  • Fish

    @Hope
    I think that the majority of chemistry is communication skills and attraction which is very quantifiable. I also have the “meter” like you described. I think we may all be describing the same thing, just experiencing it differently.

    @BV
    I don’t really think market models strictly apply to the SMP because in a lot of ways the market is just way more complicated. Since there really isn’t any concept of “earnings” in the SMP its really just a straight value proposition. Again, maybe just the way I look at it.

  • Lokland

    @PJ

    “- But would the disabled or those related to/caring for them take offense? That’s the point here.”

    I believe that part of the point was lost on her…

  • Richard Aubrey

    neo-neocon had a piece on courage some time back. Consensus was that libs frequently dismiss the virtue with a sneer because they know they don’t have it, and should. But if it’s dismissible…pffft.
    Ditto football, imo.
    Or lax.

  • BuenaVista

    Fish, isn’t the whole SMP trope a production of the PUAs? There, earnings are simply notches, so they do indeed have a measurable earnings stream. That’s why they talk about how many strangers they fucked over 36 hours. So they have a happy little observable market with inputs and outputs. It’s like Farmville, only with condoms.

    If the SMP includes more than glandular spasms with a hierarchy of female or male forms, then, I agree: it’s just a metaphor, and one that breaks down and misleads if the objective is something of an emotional and moral achievement. I think this is where Sai is overemphasizing the metaphor, and freaking herself out. Rather, it’s useful as a point of departure.

    Still, I do find it informative when I do my backtesting with a SMV or MMV construct. I can (broadly) fit the SMP model to my dataset, and it is explanatory (predictive of what will happen next with me). But beyond attraction, and the qualifiers as one moves into relationship or marriage market values, it’s just a point of departure. Buffett doesn’t invest in love, but we must (or disavow ‘love’ entirely). Failing to understand this is to willingly blindfold one to the virtues of intimacy.

    All of my patents are in decision science, but it’s a lot easier to build a prepayment model than it is to score for the ineffable. And no one invests in the ineffable; they invest in a CEO who will meet his numbers or face getting whacked. And the convexity that depicts the risk of committing to complex people is breathtaking. So at one level it’s probably best to just ignore those risks: there’s a reason why fighter pilots are kids: they have no idea what they’re getting into, until they’re on fire or something, whereupon it’s just another “oh shit” moment.

  • BuenaVista

    I don’t regard this as a call to a moral collectivism, as did Hemingway. Rather, I view it, in the HUS context, to indicate two things. One, if just one boy is removed from his father by the State, the entire State falters. Two, it is gross vanity and ignorance for anyone to construct his own Iland.

    No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
    is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
    if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
    is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
    well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
    owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in Mankinde;
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

  • Bastiat Blogger “The interesting thing is that if you decompose the performance and just buy the cheapest stuff with no regard for trying to determine quality, the cheap-only strategy outperforms the two-factor cheap + quality one (by over 200 basis points).”

    Now this is fascinating.

    As an aside, what do you think of the long-term (as in, 30+ year) value of gold? Not gold stocks, but physical gold?

  • Vitor

    I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

    Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

    So true. I’ve read something a while ago, I think it was written by a psychoanalyst, that women then to play “hard to get” to men who demonstrate sexual attraction to them, or romantic interest in them. In other other words, the guy was stating that women are naturally averse to men who demonstrate sexual or romantic interest in them, this being the reason why so many guys are unsuccessful with them, i.e., because they are not able to conceal effectively their sexual or romantic intention. Do you think this is accurate, or instead it just means that she’s not interested in the guy?

  • Vitor

    Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

    I believe this is not gender specific.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.”

    My worst “relationship” was with a man who was constantly trying to one up me – in everything.

    I wanted a co-creator, not a co-competitor.

    Why would someone try to compete with a partner or love interest? I don’t get it.

  • Vitor

    With regard to my comment no. 266 (I believe this is not gender specific.) for the sake of correction, I would just change benevolently dominant to benevolently feminine to women. 🙂 The same for other traits, e.g., how a woman is considered compassionate, kind, calm, confident, etc. in the point of view of guys.

  • Jayn Rand

    Benevolently dominant is a gender neutral trait. Unless you are implying my dominance is malevolent, Vitor in a tutu.

    😉

  • Vitor

    Benevolently dominant is a gender neutral trait.

    I don’t find dominant women sexy or attractive. For me, definitely, dominance is not a feminine trait. Which should not be confounded with confidence.

  • Jayn Rand

    “I don’t find dominant women sexy or attractive. For me, definitely, dominance is not a feminine trait. Which should not be confounded with confidence.”

    I find confident men attractive (if they are in fact, good looking), however dominance is not a trait I value.

    If a man is good looking but not confident, then he’s still attractive. I mean, nothing takes away from good looks, does it? The hot are still hot *looking