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How to Get a Boyfriend in College

Happy Couple ShoppingThe first and most critical step to finding a relationship in college is choosing a guy who’s capable of and interested in having one. Avoid wasting time, emotional energy (and a number!) on guys who are not relationship material. 

Take this quiz and see where you should be investing your effort.

1. You see him walking around campus in a t-shirt. Printed on the chest is:

a. Greek letters (-2 points)

b. Varsity __________ (-1 point)

c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)

d. A political cause or slogan (+2 points)

2. He eats lunch with:

a. A roving band of marauders (-2 points)

b. One particular girl (-1 point)

c. A couple of guys (+1 point)

d. It varies – sometimes alone, sometimes with a friend or two, sometimes he joins a group (+2 points)

3. Where you met:

a. At a frat party (-2 points)

b. He approached you randomly (-1 point)

c. In class (+1 point)

d. Freshman Orientation (+2 points)

4. His class year:

a. Senior (-2 points)

b. Junior (-1 point)

c. Sophomore (+1 point)

d. Freshman (+2 points)

5. What month is it?

a. April (-2 points)

b. September (-1 point)

c. November (+1 point)

d. February (+2 points) 

6. You’ve seen him at the library:

a. Never (-2 points)

b. During finals (-1 point)

c. Every time you’re there (+1 point)

d. Occasionally (+2 points)

7. He plays a college sport:

a. Football, Lacrosse, Basketball (-2 points)

b. Division 1 anything (-1 point)

c. Co-ed club sport (+1 point)

d. Track, Crew, Tennis (+2 points)

 8. Number of alcoholic drinks he consumes per weekend:

a. 15-30 (-2 points)

b. 10-14 (-1 point)

c. 0-4 (+1 point)

d. 5-9 (+2 points)

9. When you make eye contact and smile, he:

a. Smirks (-2 points)

b. Looks bored (-1 point)

c. Comes running over (+1 point)

d. Holds eye contact, smiles back, and nods (+2 points)

10. In a group setting he:

a. Mostly ignores you until late in the evening (-2 points)

b. Says Be Right Back 3 or more times (-1 point)

c. Stays by your side (+1 point)

d. Socializes among a group of his friends and yours (+2 points)

11. He suggests hanging out:

a. In his room, now (-2 points)

b. By meeting up when you’re out next weekend (-1 point)

c. At a specific event (+1 point)

d. During the daytime (+2 points)

12. He expresses his attraction to you by saying:

a. “You can suck my dick if you want.” (-2 points)

b. “Do you want to be my girlfriend?” (-1 point)

c. “I’m really attracted to you.” (+1 point)

d. Doesn’t say anything, but actions send a clear message. (+2 points)

13. His first attempt at physical contact is:

a. Grinding on you from behind (-2 points)

b. Spontaneous makeout session (-1 point)

c. Goodnight kiss (+1 point)

d. Hand holding (+2 points)

14. His attitude about relationships:

a. Just wants to have fun (-2 points)

b. Just got out of one (-1 point)

c. Wants one (+1 point)

d. Would commit to the right girl (+2 points)

15. Long-term career goals:

a. That’s not why he’s at college (-2 points)

b. Be on stage (-1 point)

c. Brain intensive and in high demand, e.g. Technology, Finance, MD, etc. (+1 point)

d. Entrepreneur (+2 points)

Total Points:

-30 to -15: You’re addicted to douchebags. Good luck with that.

-15 to 0: He’s ambivalent at best. The long-term forecast is not favorable.

0-15: He’s a good guy who has healthy relationships and would consider dating you. Let him know you’re interested.

15-30: He’s a catch. Grab on and don’t let go – Hard to Get is a poor strategy. 

One Pingback/Trackback

  • Escoffier

    The Smiths, hmmm …

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The Smiths, hmmm …

      Do you have a vacancy for a back scrubber?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    A t-shirt with “a political cause or slogan (+2 points)”

    Really? I think a lot of times, people wearing political slogans around are merely expressing their conformity and submission to whatever views are trendy in their circle, or the circle to which they *hope* to be admitted.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Really? I think a lot of times, people wearing political slogans around are merely expressing their conformity and submission to whatever views are trendy in their circle, or the circle to which they *hope* to be admitted.

      I think a guy who’s willing to state his values openly gets points for that. How hard is it to “get into” the circle of people espousing a particular view? I’d be willing to give extra points for non-conformity.

  • Escoffier

    foster, I had the same thought. However, I reminded myself that the question is “relationship fitness,” not “freedom of thought” or some such. On that basis, slogan-boy is probably a better bet than frat-boy.

  • Sai

    Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?

      A guy who doesn’t drink at all in college is an outlier. If that is a good match for you, that’s great, but most women prefer a boyfriend who is socially oriented, and in college that means having a beer or two.

  • Erik L

    Entrepreneur +2? Explanation please…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Entrepreneur +2? Explanation please…

      Signifies creativity, drive, ambition, tenacity and intelligence. Most likely to have big ideas that turn into big money.

  • FeralEmployee

    Entrepreneur? I know some huge a-holes that are entrepreneurs, with a troublesome NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) on top of that.

    Though I guess it’s still better than assigning the +2 points to hipster bass players. I see STEM gets a +1 pity point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know some huge a-holes that are entrepreneurs, with a troublesome NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) on top of that.

      Personality disorders are captured in other questions.

      I see STEM gets a +1 pity point.

      Hahaha! I like that – a pity point.

      Tech plus entrepreneur is winning the lottery, obvs. Highest potential combo.

  • Track

    I think Entrepreneur got more points than STEM careers because it implies (maybe) that entrepreneurs are more naturally outgoing, whereas people in STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

  • Track

    Though I personally disagree with the class year ranking, it has been my experience that by the end of sophomore/the beginning of junior year more guys are willing to “settle down” so to speak and commit to a girl, because the newness and entertainment of the freshman year hook up scene has faded.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Though I personally disagree with the class year ranking, it has been my experience that by the end of sophomore/the beginning of junior year more guys are willing to “settle down” so to speak and commit to a girl, because the newness and entertainment of the freshman year hook up scene has faded.

      Good point, I’ll buy that. However, nearly all “college marrieds” get together freshmen year, so that bumps freshmen up a bit.

  • Richard Aubrey

    In the mid-nineties, I went to a fraternity reunion of the classes of, roughly, 63-68. Most of the guys there were married to the girls they’d been going with when I knew them.
    This does not address how many other girls they’d dated up to the One.
    Still, better than average marriage solidity.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Nowadays it’s better to wear a nerdy/techy T-shirt, like a reddit or xkcd shirt, video game logo shirt, etc. Political T-shirts are too alienating, and really, smart Millennials are generally disillusioned about the major political parties.

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2013/05/21/daily-circuit-youth-vote

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nowadays it’s better to wear a nerdy/techy T-shirt, like a reddit or xkcd shirt, video game logo shirt, etc.

      It can be – I think it depends. XKCD >>> video game shirt, IMO. If a girl is a gamer, that’s obvs not the case, but most girls aren’t.

      Political T-shirts are too alienating, and really, smart Millennials are generally disillusioned about the major political parties.

      Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of solar power or “hug a tree,” lol. Not Young Republicans. Though that still beats Greek letters.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sai “Why is 8d a better choice than 8c?”

    Presumably the guy who drinks a bit is more socially savvy than the guy who never touches alcohol.

    And actually that is my husband, who drank a bit in college and would only commit to the “right girl.”

  • Drifting

    Reactions to the best choices on the list, sorry for wall of text:

    1. He’s the right kind of trendy, one that shows a moral rather than aesthetic earnestness.

    2. He’s sociable, but doesn’t have close friends who might distract him from you. Easier to distance and keep separate.

    3. You meet him in a place where you will never see him again if you so choose, and if you don’t like him, you can break cleanly. No longing looks from the back row if you do.

    4. He’s just arrived, and hasn’t realized his SMV yet. Easier to mold.

    5. Not a “fling” month.

    6. Bookish, but not overly so, with little chance of stalker tendencies.

    7. All the benefits of fratness and old money sports, with none of the frat culture.

    8. He parties, but is neither a drunkard not a teetotaller. Notice how many of these things are pretty much the idea of the “respectable gentleman?”

    9. Shows interest without being desperate. Selecting out the overly beta yet again, but he isn’t used to it either.

    10. Again, he isn’t beta, but isn’t alpha enough to disregard you.

    11. Takes you on a date in a place where sex won’t be easy and you’ll be entertained.

    12. Annoying. You can’t ever tell a woman you’re attracted to her, because ironically that makes her see you as a beta and loses her attraction. You have to show it, but again, not in ways that she dislikes. Read her mind.

    13. Nonthreatening, romantic, willing to wait, but the game guys would say that a girl who finds this attractive is sorting a beta-alpha out for a provider role. More likely than not a girl would be hooking up on the side with someone else who makes her tingle unless she’s consistently moral.

    14. I think you’re expecting an awful lot from a college freshman here.

    15. Unrealistic. You realize the majority of entrepreneurs fail to make money, right? Seems like you want alpha traits here and the potential to make big bucks, but successful ones tend to do mundane, boring businesses.

    My take is a little more cynical, but on the guy end you have to realize that we’re simply not going to fill the +2 category at that age well. The + 2 is kind of like an old money gentleman who knows how to work the crowd yet isn’t virile enough to be a more polite version of the -2. The +1 seems to be a settling beta; high earning potential, more moldable and controllable, less likely to stray.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The +1 seems to be a settling beta; high earning potential, more moldable and controllable, less likely to stray.

      Agreed, I think going after the +1 guy has the highest ROI.

  • JP

    “Presumably the guy who drinks a bit is more socially savvy than the guy who never touches alcohol.”

    When I started college, I was still of the mind that underage parties should be shut down the the police.

    I was somewhat frustrated that they could’t lock this down and solve the problem by expelling such students.

  • Drifting

    Entrepreneur makes sense because it selects for alphas, and if we are talking a decent college, they’ll have money behind them to be able to start trendy or high status businesses. No owning a chain of laundromats or slums, or worse, cash-checking places. A lot of the +2s are traits which work for social status; this is why tennis and track are better than football because you’re more likely to find high status mates doing them. Even if the payout is possibly less.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      this is why tennis and track are better than football because you’re more likely to find high status mates doing them.

      No, it’s because in my experience, those guys have had a much more “normal” upbringing, have better sportsmanship, and are generally more intelligent, i.e. not meatheads. I would definitely include crew here.

  • lovelost

    Greek letters (-2 points)

    why is that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Greek letters (-2 points)

      why is that?

      Because most guys join fraternities to get drunk and get laid, in that order.

  • lovelost

    STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

    that’s what i call “stereotypical non-sense”. anyhow good luck with that attitude.

  • JP

    “STEM careers are stereotypically a bit more reserved or awkward.

    that’s what i call “stereotypical non-sense”. anyhow good luck with that attitude.”

    I agree with this.

    STEM = boring-awkward.

    This is one of the reasons that I bailed on it. All of the patent attorneys even got made fun of at a law firm social once.

    Definitely considered the “social weirdos”.

  • Track

    @lovelost

    No need to take that so personally, I didn’t say that was my opinion of STEM careers, I was simply replying as to why I thought entrepreneur was ranked higher.

  • Escoffier

    When it comes to relationship fitness, I agree it is odd that entrepreneurs are ranked higher than STEM guys. Entrepreneurs would seem to be, on average, more “alpha” and hence more attractive but that would seem to detract a bit from relationship fitness rather than add to it.

  • Track

    @Escoffier

    I agree with you, I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends, but I think this ranking may have been more in terms of getting the relationship started than maintaining one. I suppose we’ll see when Susan comments.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I agree with you, I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends, but I think this ranking may have been more in terms of getting the relationship started than maintaining one.

      Exactly. For the girl to have noticed the guy and be considering him, he has to be out and about on campus, doing some socializing, etc.

      However, I didn’t mention tech, finance, etc. for personality reasons. I think it’s a good filter for intelligence, self-discipline and motivation. I give entrepreneurs extra credit for the reasons I stated above, which they have in addition to these. Basically, I’m looking to hit as many female long-term attraction cues as I can.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, as Susan went to Wharton, she is a bit biased toward entrepreneurial men. She also did not go to college during the start-up boom of the 2000s and 2010s (with all of its failures), nor was she involved any failed start-ups. Most of the young women she knows probably haven’t been either. I have, and I run far away from any guy who utters the word “start-up” around me.

  • Drifting

    STEM guys won’t. They are followers at heart, and +1 is all about beta followers. They can be lucrative followers at times (though many STEM fields have very poor pay and qol issues, when you can even get employed) but the geek mindset isn’t really alpha.

  • Escoffier

    Yeah, I was a big fan of that band in college. But I was, or could be, a rather weepy and sensetive soul. Then again, I did make a good boyfriend (if I do say so myself)–right up untl the moment I broke up with her to move east.

    I dunno, I just think affinity for The Smiths might signify a little too much maudlin-beta to sustain attraction for the long term … I moved on to classical at around age 19, so I escaped …

  • Escoffier

    BTW, Susan, I have a couple of fresh, good Mrs. E stories, but they don’t seem to be on topic. However, I know you like them so if you don’t mind that they are OT, I can share …

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I have a couple of fresh, good Mrs. E stories, but they don’t seem to be on topic.

      I rarely if ever object to OT comments, and I do enjoy Mrs. E stories. Do share them!

  • JP

    “A guy who doesn’t drink at all in college is an outlier. If that is a good match for you, that’s great, but most women prefer a boyfriend who is socially oriented, and in college that means having a beer or two.”

    Except for the fact that it’s a criminal action.

    Which is a real problem if you are trying to be law abiding.

  • JP

    “Good point, I’ll buy that. However, nearly all “college marrieds” get together freshmen year, so that bumps freshmen up a bit.”

    Because they are holding on to each other like life preservers?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because they are holding on to each other like life preservers?

      Exactly. For some percentage of guys and girls, that’s the perfect arrangement. Those guys probably can’t be beat as boyfriends.

  • SayWhaat

    I think overall STEM guys would make better boyfriends

    I don’t.

    Too ‘spergy.

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

  • Escoffier

    heh, I rowed crew. Also rugby, now that is where the TRUE meatheads are. Lax, rugby and water polo seemed to have the highest concentration of barbarians.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Lax, rugby and water polo seemed to have the highest concentration of barbarians.

      LOL! I love the use of “barbarians” here. Totally agree re lax, it’s the most “bro” of all sports. I don’t think we have water polo in the east, so no comment there. Rugby players are maniacs.

  • Vitor

    Discarding two or three random variables, 22 points with a slight skew upwards. :-D

  • Joe

    @Susan, I don’t understand the 8d points either. I agree with the part about outliers, but 9 drinks every weekend (your upper limit) sounds excessive. I could see that after finals…

    And entrepreneurs? No, no, NO!!! Entrepreneurs are already married to their job and career prospects, much like an alcoholic is already in a relationship with his bottle. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are not good prospects.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      but 9 drinks every weekend (your upper limit) sounds excessive. I could see that after finals…

      I agree 9 is getting up there. I figure that’s three beers for each of three nights (many kids go out on Thursday nights). Guys who binge drink, which is very common in college, sometimes have 15 beers or more – per night.

      Entrepreneurs are already married to their job and career prospects, much like an alcoholic is already in a relationship with his bottle. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are not good prospects.

      Let me clarify something. I’m not really thinking of husband material here. A guy who dreams big in college has some good qualities from a female POV. But neither she nor anyone else will know if he realizes his dreams for ten more years. So it’s more about the kinds of qualities that signal “winner”

      I have a couple of friends who are married to serial entrepreneurs, and they have a life. I guess it depends on the business, or product.

      Also, I should say that I wrote this as a quirky, humorous post. I don’t mean for anyone to take it as gospel – obviously, it reflects my own biases and preferences. Other women will feel differently. I did try to hit some high points re character, though. I’m not wedded to anything here, and am happy to take other suggestions for + points or – points.

  • Drifting

    The right kind of barbarians though, sadly. Football and similar are meritocratic by necessity, and high status class markers are anything but.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Football and similar are meritocratic by necessity

      Yes, the guy who looks most like a refrigerator has what it takes.

  • Escoffier

    Drifting, at my school, which was Div 1A, the football and basketball players were in a completely different league, almost at a different school. Many of them had shots at pro careers and genuine super-stardome. Some were already stars in their own right.

    Lax, rugby and WP, by contrast, were more “down to earth.” Those were high status guys, to be sure, but more “attainable.” There was a sense that they were going to the same school as you, just that they were at the top and you were not. The bigtime players for the televised, money-making sports OTOH were like demi-gods. Not really “of” us in any real way.

  • JP

    SayWhaat has the right idea.

    Avoid them because that path is the way ruin and insanity.

    At least until we figure out what is causing the massive increase in spergishness.

  • JP

    “Drifting, at my school, which was Div 1A, the football and basketball players were in a completely different league, almost at a different school. Many of them had shots at pro careers and genuine super-stardome. Some were already stars in their own right.”

    Normal girls still dated them however.

    One of my friends’ sister dated the QB of a major Div I school.

    (Granted, if she was *married* to him right now, her life would be a complete ruin and embarrassment, and shame would follow her all of her days for unrelated reasons.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A young woman I know was courted relentlessly by a Duke basketball player every day for three weeks. His efforts consisted of texting her every night to come to his apartment for sex. She finally threatened to report it as harassment and he stopped.

  • JP

    Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

    We really need to shut it down.

    Although it *does* produce wonderful briefs for disability cases. I used a legal brief from a firm that represented an NFL guy for permanent brain damage. Saved me a lot of time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

      We really need to shut it down.

      Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

  • JP

    Why on God’s Green Earth am I commenting on a blog post entitled “How to Get a Boyfriend in College”.

    I can’t really come up with an answer.

    I’m at a loss for words here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why on God’s Green Earth am I commenting on a blog post entitled “How to Get a Boyfriend in College”.

      I can’t really come up with an answer.

      I’m at a loss for words here.

      Haha! Why am I writing one?

  • http://meistergedanken.livejournal.com meistergedanken

    “How To Get A Boyfriend in College”

    Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.

    Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.

      This is not true in my experience. Having visited quite a few colleges, and hung out at two quite a bit, I was continuously amazed at how much thinner the women were than the general population. At graduation in particular, when girls were in sleeveless dresses, I saw more anorexic girls than overweight ones.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)”

    All this tell us about is Susan’s taste in music.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      All this tell us about is Susan’s taste in music.

      True. What I was trying to get at was the cool factor, an artistic temperament, and high EQ.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    I do not wish to turn this into another political thread. However, the problem with Gen Y’s disillusionment with politics is not politics’ fault. It is Gen Y’s fault.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.”

    Bull! Plenty of fat women have boyfriends.

    And heaven knows your miserable now.

  • Mike M.

    Folks, I’ll let you in on a secret.

    STEM is not monolithic.

    At the bottom, you’ve got “technology”. Read computer programming, etc. OK pay, OK skills. Seems to attract the hard-core nerd/geek types.

    Then you have math & science. Better pay, higher skills.

    At the top, you have the engineers. Highly skilled, top pay. Practical. Nice people, frequently have unusual hobbies. Snag one…if you can.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares HanSolo

    Plenty of fat women may have boyfriends but

  • JP

    “At the top, you have the engineers. Highly skilled, top pay. Practical. Nice people, frequently have unusual hobbies. Snag one…if you can.”

    And joked about by the rest of society because they are spergy.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    According to this study, of the women who are in some sort of relationship,

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19485565.2011.615172#.UdRe2Pm1FqW

    the obese and overweight are less likely to report a “dating exclusively” reln. than the normal and underweight:

    under…62%
    normal.55%
    overw..46%
    obese…45%

  • Bed & Break-fast

    I’m reposting here Divorced in Texas’s latest comment under HUS’s “Unspun Truth About Marriage” thread because it is relevant to the state of finances and stability of “college boyfriends”

    DivorcedInTexas July 2, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    I’m new to the blog so have not read up on the blog mistress – so thanks for pointing that out. I really agree wholeheartedly. I really can never see me giving up my career at this point anyway. I have worked really hard and am in my dream job. Any man I would accept would have to share in the domestic work that we didn’t hire out or it just wouldn’t last kids or not. Since I still have many life decisions to make about relationships, marriage, kids, home buying, relocating, grad school, etc. This is an exercise for me to do research, imagine outcomes, talk about it with others and get feedback. Then when I have figured out more of what I want, I can do what I do best – define the goal and set out the steps needed to make it happen. I did this for work and my money, just not really in my personal life until now. Right now I baffle from one end to the other, and I know I need to figure things out a bit more if I want to be proactive this time around. Last time I married my first boyfriend – that was reactionary because I wanted to get married and obviously had little requirements beyond the basics. I think the saying is young and dumb?

    Were there signs that my ex would be violent and abusive? Honestly there were not that I noticed. He was never violent before we lived together. But there were signs that he did not have the same financial priorities that I had. But friends and family told me that I was ambitious enough for the two of us. That I was overly ambitious and because I work in financial services, think about money just way too much. So I figured it was almost snobby to judge someone financially and expect the same level of money-motivation. This may be true, I spend much of my time reviewing financial plans and portfolios and have seen thousands of clients over the years in all walks if life. And the image of the little 75yo old widow ladies asking me what are they going to do? The account is out of money how can this be??? They used to have 100k. And I have to pull out my notes and show them where I advised them every year at their rate of withdrawal, they would run out of money. I tell them that they can go get a job or go try for welfare, sell off assets, or start charging their kids for domestic services, etc. And they would just look at me like I was insane – they didn’t like any of those options. They would insist I give them another option. Like most people they have no acceptance of the reality that you can’t (or don’t want to) work forever, but being alive still costs money.

    I wish someone had told me that it doesn’t matter if he is willing to marry – he isn’t eligible to. Young women should go into marriage less on feelings that I am so glad someone wants to commit to me, loves me, takes me out and buys me flowers, (my ex did all that) etc. Men go into relationships based on logic of will this person accomplish what I’m trying to do? Is she fertile? Does she have good genes? Will she make me look good at the company event to my boss and clients? Do I love her so much that I am willing and able to deal with her debts and low income job?

    This time around I know that although I may like someone, it isn’t in my best interest to get into a relationship with someone not eligible to provide for their half of a home, living expenses, safety cushion, and their retirement expenses. Since these are my goals – I really would be better off staying single than marrying a dependent. Already learned that one the hard way.

    I would encourage women to quantify whatever their life goals are – which I suspect are similar to mine anyway – and then ask yourself is this guy eligible to participate in that? Or is he more likely to hold me back from my goals or from meeting someone else that is eligible? When you realize the answer is no the vast majority of the time that he isn’t eligible – there is very little reason to have sex with him in hopes he will like you and eventually commit – you don’t want to be committed to someone that holds you back. Dating should be to see if you like and get along with someone eligible to be your life partner.

    Anyone that has credit card debt, student loans, or any debts other than a home or car – is unacceptable to me. People act like that is so harsh of a requirement, everyone has some credit card debt. Debt is a symptom of bad choices and poor self-discipline, just like being overweight.

    Anyone that doesn’t have 3- 6 months emergency savings in place is unacceptable to me. Again many people think this is an absurd requirement of mine and that no one really has that. Obviously if you ever want to go beyond living paycheck to paycheck this is how you do it. And if you amazingly never have an emergency that it just goes into retirement.

    Anyone that doesn’t have a plan for down payment money on a home whether its savings or earning extra money is unacceptable to me- living in an apartment with others is not something I want to do for a long time.

    Anyone that can’t verbalize somewhat of a retirement plan in that they know they probably can’t work full time past 70 at the rate of income they make now. And have been working towards a solution for this – even though they may not actually know what is needed. That is what financial planners are for anyway!

    I have been told by many people that these are unrealistic requirements. Yet I have them all accomplished and am thrilled to not have much stress in life. This wasn’t by magic or happenstance – I just follow my own advice to either earn more or spend less to get out of debt and have short, intermediate, and long term money. It isn’t a new concept.

    I’ve been told I’m a gold digger by men and women. None of the above is for me – it is for their half. I don’t want the communal money going towards their prior debts rather than our future. I may not be able to fully support us in the event he loses his job, so their emergency savings is to buffer their lost income. It wouldnt be right if I have to pony all the money up for the home because it wasnt convenient for them to ever save. Their retirement savings is to go for their half of our expenses in our retirement. Of course I’m willing to give in proportion to my higher income, but they should still be able to meet their part.

    I lived through the fallout of this when my ex bought a house no money down at twice the going rates – that he and I could barely afford together (prior to marriage so it would only be in his name) yet I got to pay for half. Yes clearly a big red flag, but hey when the housing market tanked and I got to move out scott-free and take my paycheck with me – He got plenty of payback as it wasn’t my property under water. What I really lost was the years of income being devoted to paying down his mortgage term and not my own.

    When I did a budget on what it cost to raise a child and that we couldn’t afford it – he was unwilling to make changes to earn more or spend less elsewhere, which is why no kids. And also why he had no discipline to earn or save more to buy a house with a down payment and get a good rate.

    So these are quantifiable measures that I think would be good for anyone to qualify someone with as a viable life partner. Yes it will knock out all the poor, as well as the unaware, irresponsible and lazy. But if they won’t get a second job now to get out of debt – they probably won’t take one when the fence needs replaced or the cost of daycare is going up, and unless there is a windfall – the debt will increase and that stress and fights over money will likely increase as well, unless you just like working your tail off, still being poor with no end in sight.

    The only exception for this would be if someone was already working a second job or really saving and knew when they would accomplish these things. A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.

    You might say if someone were young they may not be able to achieve that yet, or if they have fallen onto hard times, etc. Regardless of their personal case, are they really ready to embark upon a successful adult life? If not, are they actually working on it? When will they achieve it? Is it worth waiting? If not, then it easily becomes apparent that they aren’t worth wasting dating time on, free yourself up to go meet an eligible partner.

    342 Bed & Break-fast July 3, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    All good points, Divorced in Texas. I’m going to post this comment on the latest topic Susan blogged “How To Get a Boyfriend in College” because what struck me is that young college men would have none of the above going for them, yet Susan is advising young women to get boyfriends in college, not for the sake of just dating and fun, but with a view toward long term and even marriage.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    And that study doesn’t really say what percent of each category of women is IN or NOT IN some sort of relationship.

    It’s just common sense that getting oneself out of the obese or overweight category will give a woman much more power to enter a relationship with a man that she finds attractive and that will find her attractive.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    On a campus with a gender ratio of 60:40… -2

    ….gender ratio of 70:30 … -5 pts. (non-linearities)

    Guy’s SMV is over 7: -5 pts

    …SMV over 9: -20 pts

    Guy talks openly about spending semesters abroad: -2 pts.

    Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.

    Guy has many hot female friends on Facebook: -3 pts.

    Guy is into extreme sports: -3 pts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Guy talks openly about spending semesters abroad: -2 pts.

      Most guys and girls do this – for one semester. Relationships often end or the couple “takes a break” during that semester. So April when a guy is going abroad in the fall (most common): not happening.

      Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.

      Interesting – I personally know about a dozen guys in these jobs at age 23, 10 of whom are in serious relationships. But most of them had 0 or 1 relationships in college. A lot of them were varsity athletes – Wall St. loves Div 1 athletes. Also, a lot more guys think they’re going to get these jobs than actually do. A lot of entitled, connected, not necessarily bright bro type guys want into the business. Some of them get in, but a lot of them can’t stay in. Several of the guys I know who graduated college in 2009 got the axe in March at bonus time.

      Guy has many hot female friends on Facebook: -3 pts.

      For a guy to not have many hot female friends on fb requires effort. My kids and their friends have 1300 friends or more. The bar is very low for being friends on fb.

  • Lokland

    @Hope

    +1 what you said about failed start-ups.
    I imagine the failure rate for entrepreneurs now is much, much higher than in Susan’s day.

    @Susan

    I disagree with your upper limit on the booze both in absolute and relative terms.

    absolute- 9 drinks all in one night, once a week is drunkard territory but still qualifies

    Also, what does score does one get if they are both an entrepreneur and a STEM spergling?

    Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      absolute- 9 drinks all in one night, once a week is drunkard territory but still qualifies

      I concede the point.

      Also, what does score does one get if they are both an entrepreneur and a STEM spergling?

      The question is meant to address a guy’s intelligence, ambition, drive, and future time orientation.

      Sperglings would lose points in other areas, but perhaps not on career plans.

      Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

      There are a lot fewer +2s, and the competition is a lot stiffer. There’s also more of a risk of mate poaching with a +2, as well as the guy developing a smirk over time.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    B&B/PJ: Was Divorced in Texas advising men to use a similar template—i.e., to only marry a woman with no student loans, etc.?

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    Divorced in Texas is a good example of how NOT to get a bf because she has a list a mile long. She wants him to:

    -earn at least $100k
    -single
    -no kids
    -no debt at all except for home and car
    -others I’m not listing

    Those are all good things but the key questions are “how many such men are there?” and “how many such men would want her?”

    In the US, there are only about 8 million men that make $100k or more. And how many of those are married, or have kids or are way older? A lot. That reduces the pool of eligible men (in her eyes).

    Good luck to her if she can find that man. In her favor, she says she earns $80k and is economically responsible. But I find it interesting that she didn’t say she wants a guy that earns at least $80k. She still wants him to earn more than her.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    And I forgot to add that since she is roughly 34 (IIRC) then the pool of single men that’s earning $100k+ is going to include a lot with kids, divorces or incurable high-earning playboys.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    The single men that would be interested in her would tend to be in the 34-50 y/o range.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    “It’s just common sense that getting oneself out of the obese or overweight category will give a woman much more power to enter a relationship with a man that she finds attractive and that will find her attractive.”

    Mmmm, I dunno. Chubby gals seem to be doing just fine in the bf dept.

    I know when I had gained 15 extra myself men that didn’t look twice at me before started checking me out. And they happened to be the most muscular/physically fit of any of the men that had ever checked me out.

  • Hope

    Hansolo, positive traits tend to be correlated with each other, so a person who is intelligent, high in future time orientation, mature and responsible is also likely to be not overweight due to better self-control, to not carry credit card debt, to make decent money and lives below means, to have several months worth of savings, to be respectful and kind, etc. If a woman is bringing all that to the table, it’s not unreasonable to ask for at least similar in return.

    I actually ticked most if not all of those boxes when I was in my mid-20s, and I had hoped to meet a guy who was similar. I ended up supporting my husband for a few years, but we were on the same page about finances and future goals, and we were both still young. My husband is a catch now, but yeah he’s married.

    It is true that a guy like this in the 30s age range would be far less likely to be single. But simply writing this woman’s post off as fantasy is incorrect, as there are still plenty of people who get married in their 30s and have good unions. It’s important to choose a life partner well, and both men and women should be prudent.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bast*** Blogger, “B&B/PJ: Was Divorced in Texas advising men to use a similar template—i.e., to only marry a woman with no student loans, etc.?”

    She mentioned that men already do approach long term mating and marriage more realistically and based on practical factors more than women.

    See here;
    “Men go into relationships based on logic of will this person accomplish what I’m trying to do? Is she fertile? Does she have good genes? Will she make me look good at the company event to my boss and clients? Do I love her so much that I am willing and able to deal with her debts and low income job?

    Young women should go into marriage less on feelings that I am so glad someone wants to commit to me, loves me, takes me out and buys me flowers, (my ex did all that) etc.”

    Her own ex-husband certainly got himself a woman that could hold not only her own, but his own also!

  • Hope

    I also feel sympathetic to her because I was shy and felt ugly in my late teens and early 20s, and my ex was also similar to hers in several ways, including violent and threatening to kill me. I made bad choices but woke up in time to still have a good life, because I was 25 when I left the ex.

    When I left I told myself I would be okay even if I spent the rest of my life alone and never had another love, because I could not live as I did. My advice to the Texas woman would be to not limit herself to one location. The love of my life lived in Utah while I was in Illinois. Now we make a wonderful life together in Utah.

  • Richard Aubrey

    We started the lax club in ’62. Little support from the U and didn’t go varsity for some years. Then it got Title Nined back to club status because they needed room for women’s lax and the women were considered incapable of running a club. I guess.
    An eclectic bunch of barbarians and a great group of guys. Went to a reunion a couple of years ago, with the earliest teams having a pre-reunion dinner. Asked the manager of the restaurant for the “loud old guys” and he pointed me to the rear. College town restaurant. As we left, I looked at the couples there and figured it was good the loud old guys were married because if we hadn’t been, the college guys would have been going home alone. Forty years’ additional age for a laxer isn’t enough of a handicap to make it fair.
    Thing is, if there’s a war on, they’ll more than likely volunteer for the combat arms, so don’t get involved until the war’s over.
    Speaking of war, friend of ours just got back from deployment to find his wife pregnant by some other guy who dumped her. His fault, I suppose.
    For an individual sport, see judo. The karate club spent a lot of time stomping around and yelling “HA!”, but were in lousy condition. And you have to pull your punches, which is poor training for fighting and doesn’t get the hard contact and large-muscle action necessary for emotional stability.
    As to political or cause shirts: “Here I am supporting that which all the Right Sort of People [as far as I can figure that out] support. Call me great.
    But, whatever you do, don’t ask me to support it with facts. Facts aren’t why I’m wearing this thing.”

  • Bully

    @HanSolo – I meet her requirements and I would not date her. Not a chance. I don’t care what she looks like. IME women that have these absolutely gigantic lists of dealbreakers/requirements have absolutely zero loyalty should things go south. It also shows a lack of tact and class and femininity and pretty much everything else that would make me want to date someone.

    Not to mention she is drastically overestimating how much her career and money counts towards her SMV. She’s presuming her career makes her a 9 on its merits alone. It doesn’t work that way for men, and it DEFINITELY doesn’t work that way for women.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    @Hope

    We don’t know what kind of looks she brings to the table. And that’s the missing piece. If she’s fairly pretty or better then her odds rise.

    In your case, you weren’t looking for a man that was already earning more than you so you were more realistic. Plus, you are quite pretty in the photos I’ve seen so you could afford to be pickier and yet you weren’t being too picky because you looked at his potential earnings and more importantly at his heart.

    I’m not saying she can’t find such a guy but she would be much better off to be open to a guy that’s making, say, $60k or higher since that increases the number of men that would be interested in her and reliable husbands a lot.

  • Bully

    ““Left out the most important bit: Don’t Be FAT.”

    Bull! Plenty of fat women have boyfriends.”

    Had a minor freakout because “Bull” is something of a nickname in other circules I run in. Took a moment for me to realize this wasn’t addressed to me. :P

    Just because they have boyfriends does not mean they’re still in a completely optimal state. If they were thin, all other things being equal, they might enjoy their relationship that much more. They might enjoy more investment from the man they’re with. I posted about this earlier – better looking women get more attention, more investment, etc. It’s just the way it is. At the same time, if they’re willing to forgo said benefits, I guess that’s up to them, but I’ve never really tolerated a desire for mediocrity in my own life.

    There’s a Facebook meme going around that shows a picture of a woman proclaiming “I’ve got extra pounds and I’m proud of who I am!” while using camera angles that minimize the sight of the extra fat. Quite curious, really.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    @Hope

    Will you advise her to be more open on the income requirement too?

    She’s basically looking for a man who’s in the top 7% or so of male earners and when you eliminate all the men with kids, not single, or players, or not interested in her then it makes it a much smaller portion.

    I think it’s great to look for a hard-working and financially-responsible guy but unless she’s a real hotty at 34 then she should lower her expectations for how much he necessarily must earn…why?…because she’s eliminating a lot of good men.

    But that’s my advice. She can do as she wishes and see if she finds any men that satisfy her list that want her.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    @Bully

    I agree on avoiding women with too long of lists. I think women should have lists. But make them realistic and focused on the most important things. And in the end, it comes down to whether a woman (or man) can get what he wants on his list.

    I think that from the male POV that a woman with too long a list will be perceived as someone who can never really just be pleased since you’re just barely measuring up. When I’m in love I’m very giving but I give inversely proportionally to how demanding she is.

    If the woman is really happy with small things and isn’t demanding tons of whatever then I will actually use my imagination and knowledge of her to do romantic surprises and make things really awesome.

    But if she’s always saying I don’t do enough and wants more then I’m more likely to just shut down and leave.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    Should read “whether a woman (or man) can get what s(/he) wants on her (or his) list.”

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully,
    “Just because they have boyfriends does not mean they’re still in a completely optimal state. If they were thin, all other things being equal, they might enjoy their relationship that much more. They might enjoy more investment from the man they’re with. I posted about this earlier – better looking women get more attention, more investment, etc. It’s just the way it is. At the same time, if they’re willing to forgo said benefits, I guess that’s up to them, but I’ve never really tolerated a desire for mediocrity in my own life.”

    My experience was completely the opposite. The sexiest men with the most muscular and clit-twinge inducing physiques stepped to me when I was 15 pounds heavier. Not before, and not after. And they treated me like how they called me “Empress”. Good times! I’m even thinking of putting on some weight before my trip down south and sideways this summer. Calypso, anyone?

  • Bully

    “I know when I had gained 15 extra myself men that didn’t look twice at me before started checking me out. And they happened to be the most muscular/physically fit of any of the men that had ever checked me out.”

    As a fit man I personally find this baffling, unless the pounds went to all the right places (in which case you’re gifted on your fat distribution genetics; in that case, more power to you.)

    If the weight doesn’t go to your chest or WHR directly then it’s better to keep it off.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    It went to all the right places, however there was some distributed on my stomach as well. Again, these very masculine, bass-toned voiced men with beautiful skin smoothed over their naturally muscle toned physiques that age very well, when they age at all (post 60) were all over it.

    Diversity FTW!

    Care for a bowl of Cheerios?

  • Bully

    I suppose the equivalent to WHR for men would be the SWR (shoulder waist ratio). The higher that gets, the more attention I get myself. The guys you were chasing probably had a similar build.

    If you want to be as physically attractive as you can be, then you should be aiming to reach the ideal for these ratios – 1.618 SWR for men (phi) and .6-.8 WHR for women. If your body structure, genetics, and current composition such that gaining weight would be beneficial to that ratio, then by all means, do so.

  • ExNewYorker

    “d. Entrepreneur (+2 points)”

    *Laugh*
    Most of the “entrepreneurs I’ve come across (directly and indirectly) had a strong streak of risk taking, which wasn’t limited to their work life only. Even those who tended to be more monogamous tended to “trade younger” if they hit it big.

    And that’s not even accounting for the fact that many were “married” to their startups…

    I suppose if you got one after he wants to settle down, it might work, but it’s not a large population…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Even those who tended to be more monogamous tended to “trade younger” if they hit it big.

      That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Hope,
    “My advice to the Texas woman would be to not limit herself to one location. ”

    Yes, I advised here as much as well:

    “Your idea to meet men offline is a good one.

    I would also recommend foreign men or immigrant men who come from hard working, responsible, family oriented and non-slacker cultures such as South Asian (Indian) men.

    Next holiday you get travel out of the country.

    If however you never manage to meet a compatible guy, you can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full time possibly live in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance.”

    - Hope and others, Divorced in Texas posted under the The Unspun Truth about Marriage thread so you might want to go there.

  • Bully

    The “don’t be fat” meme gets around because losing weight, in all honesty, is what would help the vast majority of women be more attractive. Obviously, outliers need to follow a different template.

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully July 3, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    I suppose the equivalent to WHR for men would be the SWR (shoulder waist ratio). The higher that gets, the more attention I get myself. The guys you were chasing probably had a similar build.
    ________________

    Hold on. Nowhere did I say I “chased” these men. I’ve never “chased” men. I said these men were giving me looks whereas before they never noticed me. I also said they stepped to me, I never stepped to them first, I merely reciprocated interest if I found them attractive and compatible enough.

    And yes, they had broad shoulders, along with the muscle tone that comes natural their ethnicity/demographic.

    I’m a big lover and supporter of Human Bio Diversity ;)

  • Bed & Break-fast

    Bully July 3, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    The “don’t be fat” meme gets around because losing weight, in all honesty, is what would help the vast majority of women be more attractive. Obviously, outliers need to follow a different template.
    __________

    I’m not talking about obese, but chubby and junk in the trunk definitely gets love from the most masculine of ethnicities. They are by no means “outliers” either.

    The morbidly obese should lose weight for their own health, however the chubby, thick and curvy can and do find plenty of love, often amongst the most sexually desirable men.

  • Sai

    “Tact?” Is that a salty snack food?

    (I kid, I kid)

  • Hope

    Hansolo, I think it’s a good idea to not put strict numbers on anything. I wasn’t looking for a guy specifically of any particular height, weight or income, but I did have a general idea of what I would have liked.

    Besides that though, I think her list is not the same as any random overly picky woman. It is a woman who was not picky enough in the past now seeing the harm of being a doormat and setting boundaries. I was like that so I can sympathize.

    She said she was chubby and that people told her she’d be pretty if she lost weight. I’m guessing she had lower self-esteem, which I also had. It can be tempting for her to forget about love now and just go for the practical, which I thought about as well, before I met my husband.

    Her best bet is probably a divorced guy with no kids who went through something similar and does not want a financially irresponsible spouse. My mother-in-law’s second husband is basically like that. They’ve been together for almost thirty years now, since her mid-30s.

  • Gin Martini

    I was at 0 until the end and hit +6! Go me!

    This is “awesome”… Like a Cosmo quiz.

    Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.

    Funny, all my spergy STEM friends seem to have married younger than you all here, and still are. Including me.

    Time’s ticking ladies!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is “awesome”… Like a Cosmo quiz.

      Haha, that’s exactly what I was aiming for! Sometimes I take this blog too damn seriously, and so does everyone else. It’s a holiday week, I’m away visiting some friends, I thought a little light fun was in order.

  • Justin

    I love how a guy can score well on all of the questions and can still get away with saying “You can suck my dick if you want.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I love how a guy can score well on all of the questions and can still get away with saying “You can suck my dick if you want.”

      You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.

  • Hope

    Bully, I don’t think it’s as simple as her thinking the career and financial success make her a 9. From the post it seems like she doesn’t want to get screwed again by a guy who wastes money. There are lots of high earners who are also high spenders. It sounds like she wants a high earner who is a high saver, who holds a long view toward financial stability rather than blowing all income on fun, eating out, etc.

    There are plenty of women who want a rich man to buy her jewelry, luxury brand clothes, shoes, purses, grand vacations, conspicuous consumption, etc. This woman sounds like she wants someone as responsible as she is, and frankly that is a very valid and serious deal breaker for marriage. Marriage is not just about SMV, remember.

  • JP

    “Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.”

    There’s nothing quite like being on the receiving end of a spergy joke at a black tie event.

    It’s pretty much endemic across the entire UMC, I think.

  • JP

    In fact, a partner I know of just got de-partnered, in part, because he had a STEM personality.

    Yay, STEM!

  • Fh fh

    I’m attracted to chubby if its not weird like huge love handles over a tiny ass or a fat neck. Something about the softness you just want to press against

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.”

    Embrace the a-word and s-word. They just mean we are more mentally evolved (rational thinkers).

    :)

  • Gin Martini

    Who’s “we”, chickadee?

    My godson has it, but I don’t. I don’t need to be lumped in because of my degree, that’s degree-ist. People who want to make stereotypes on me are gonna get it back in spades. You of all people should know.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Drifting, 24

    Load of bull. The STEM crowd is very segmented. Engineers alone are known to pop out managers, and leaders for spin-offs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Engineers alone are known to pop out managers, and leaders for spin-offs.

      JP recently posted the top paying college majors by mid-career, and IIRC 8 out of 10 were engineering.

  • Lokland

    @GM

    “Funny, all my spergy STEM friends seem to have married younger than you all here, and still are. Including me.”

    Just to clarify, it was me who made the spergling joke. Kinda like black people calling each other the N word.

    Similarly, my friends, myself and most of the young men I know in STEM today are neiter aspy nor failures with woman.
    However, if a woman is willing to disqualify men based upon having a degree… well let the amusement ensue. Especially considering a large portion of degrees issued to males overall are now STEM in one form or another.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Similarly, my friends, myself and most of the young men I know in STEM today are neiter aspy nor failures with woman.

      Same here – I know one person with Asperger’s and she’s female.

      Tech is the future, those guys (and girls) will have the last laugh. We’re not going to be able to do anything without them. Of course not all of them will be wildly successful. But a large portion of wildly successful people will be in tech.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    The inability to not see a premise through to its logical conclusion is considered normal and non s-wordy.

    Those of us who can see a premise through, step by step, to its natural and logical conclusion are considered s-wordy.

    See the “discussion” that essentially became a monologue on “religion” over at “The Surprising News About College Sluts” (the other s-word), because nobody else here is capable of seeing it through to its logical end.

  • Gin Martini

    Lok, I understand in-group vs. out-group insults. My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.

    Divorced in Texas is frankly… deluded. Possible, but very unlikely. She used the word “I” about 50 times before I lost count. Huge list of dealbreakers, hence, my comment of “join a harem” (which is mean, but as long as PJ is here, I will be a total shit).

    I think J did it, and found an unmarried older man at her age, but she was hot, DD, and model-thin all by her own admission. DIT is “in progress” with losing weight. We also have no idea if Mr. J met DIT’s income requirements.

  • Lokland

    @GM

    “My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.”

    And that really offends you?

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “Divorced in Texas is frankly… deluded. Possible, but very unlikely. She used the word “I” about 50 times before I lost count. Huge list of dealbreakers, hence, my comment of “join a harem” (which is mean, but as long as PJ is here, I will be a total shit).”

    You basically piggy-backed off my comment to her that preceded yours in which I advised her to, as a last resort…

    “If however you never manage to meet a compatible guy, you can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full-time possibly live-in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance.”

    I don’t think she’s deluded at all. She is not asking for a man to out-earn, out-save or out-perform her, she is simply asking for her EQUAL.

    This blog values “assortive mating” even if you don’t.

  • Hope

    Gin Martini, I only read the comment that was posted on this thread, and this part strikes me as not very deluded.

    “A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.”

    Apparently she knows guys who make good money. That’s not the main requirement. It’s financial responsibility.

  • JP

    “My godson has it, but I don’t. I don’t need to be lumped in because of my degree, that’s degree-ist.”

    I don’t have it, either, but I do have…the degree. The STEM degree.

    A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance…

  • College Kid

    Don’t mean to hijack the thread. but this girl I’ve been talking to for a little asked me out for 4th of July. but i’m pretty sure I have to come up with stuff to do. ideas anyone? I know we’re going to see fireworks at the end, but for the rest of the day…I’m at a loss. Help?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @College Kid

      I’m not sure of your location or weather forecast, but here are some ideas:

      Hike

      Picnic

      Swim – beach, pond, lake

      Grill/BBQ

      Bike ride

      4th of July parade

      Outdoors stuff is good if you can, followed by a meal, and then off to fireworks.

  • Bully

    “I don’t have it, either, but I do have…the degree. The STEM degree.

    A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance…”

    As do I.

    Had I any clue that it would be like this when I signed up for it I would have gone into something else.

    As it is, though, I’ve found that cultivating other non-STEM related aspects of yourself will aid that greatly.

  • Hope

    College kid, fourth of July means parades, BBQs, ice cream stands, outdoor concerts, and tons of activity everywhere. You should not lack for cheap and entertaining stuff to do. If all else fails, go to a local mall and hang around for the air conditioning and people watching. Have fun!

  • Mike M.

    Send Divorced in Texas over to me. The question being whether or not she can meet my standards. :-)

    I suspect her job has something to do with her financial paranoia.

    She will probably need to move to better hunting grounds. And look for a STEM professional.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    @College Kid

    Drive to somewhere nice like the ocean or an ice cream creamery out in the countryside. Or have a picnic in a park somewhere. Find some place with nice scenery and drive (or walk) there and then walk around there. Going to a nice and beautiful (but simple) place will add a sense of adventure and excitement plus offer an opportunity for some kissing.

    Along with this, think of some simple place that has good food or dessert or ice cream and go there and then take them to eat at your destination.

    For example, if you live in Boston, go by Boca Grande and get grilled chicken burritos for lunch and then go to Finale and get the flourless dark-chocolate mousse cake and take them to this quaint little bay with cliffs at Nahant and eat there…but keep an eye out for tow trucks. ;)

    I once shared a tub of delicious chocolate ice cream with a brunette babe but got too distracted by here and forgot about keeping an eye out and my car got towed. An old couple took us to the police station and an old police officer drove us to the towing company and the towing company drove me to the ATM to get the fat fee. Total ambience ruination!

  • http://www.justfourguys.com HanSolo

    I never went out with her again.

    But on the bright side, I took a different brunette babe there and made out with her on top of a rocky cliff with waves crashing below for a good hour and my car didn’t get towed and she became my girlfriend.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    PJ: “You can always go for artificial insemination and hire a full-time possibly live-in nanny and just cougar it up every once in a while if you get horny or feel a lack of romance”

    She stated she can’t afford a kid on her own income in her area. If that’s the case, how can she afford a live-in nanny on top of that?

    Hope: “I only read the comment that was posted on this thread, and this part strikes me as not very deluded. – A work in process is fine as long as there are goals and a good work ethic to achieve them. I care more about that than current income. I know lots of guys making good money, but are in debt up to their eyeballs and pursue lots of expensive hobbies.”

    That’s just one part. But good catch, I missed this part in the wall of text, and only saw the part requiring 100k+. (how can it be both?)

    Even so, I still think its very unlikely to meet a man 35-40 who fits exactly this, plus, is never-married with no children. Men this age who fit all the dealbreakers, will probably be either players or total dweebs.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    JP,
    “A STEM degree can hang around your neck like a millstone, dragging you down in the abyss of social irrelevance”

    Wow. In my circles you’d be first selected for, provided you were at least average looking and had a somewhat agreeable personality.

    Bully,
    “As do I.
    Had I any clue that it would be like this when I signed up for it I would have gone into something else.”

    OK, so which fields and degrees are not millstones around the neck?

    “As it is, though, I’ve found that cultivating other non-STEM related aspects of yourself will aid that greatly.”

    Wouldn’t you have to cultivate other aspects of yourself no matter what type of degree or job you got?

    Surely nobody here thinks they ARE their job, or that their job is all that their is to life, do they?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I was a starting O lineman in high school :(

  • Bed & Breakfast

    Football is the road to cognitive damage and long term harm to the body.

    We really need to shut it down.

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.
    ______________

    Yep. And the wacko Manosphere is already hootin’ and hollerin’ about “Feminism’s War on Masculinity in the Form of Football” and how
    “Cultural-Marxist Feminazis Want to Feminize American Men by Phasing American Football Out & Pinko, Pussified Communist Inspired European Football (Soccer) In.”

  • JP

    “Surely nobody here thinks they ARE their job, or that their job is all that their is to life, do they?”

    Your job is essentially who you are in the sense that it determines your social rank in the local community or church.

    Meaning that you are presumed to be your job, in the sense that it signals where you rank.

    Medical specialists are the most beloved and presumed to be the highest quality person.

    If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.

  • Bed & Breakfast

    I was the one who copied and pasted Divorced in Texas’s comment here yet I did not see the requirement that her mate earn at least $100,000 per year.

    Where is it?

  • Bed & Breakfast

    “If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.”

    Who wants shallow and snobby-assed friends like that to start with?

  • JP

    ““If you switch jobs, for example, from “lawyer” to “teacher” your worth would decline and you would possibly be shunned by your former friends.”

    Who wants shallow and snobby-assed friends like that to start with?”

    Well, they would feel badly for you, so part of it would be pity, coupled with confusion and sadness. Kind of like if a CEO has a stroke and can no longer serve as a captain of industry. A form of sorrow as they mourned the loss of a dear friend who changed before their very eyes.

    They might try to befriend your children so that your children could know hope. They might try to help them avoid the fate of becoming a poor teacher and leading a life of despair.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    PJ: “I did not see the requirement that her mate earn at least $100,000 per year? Where is it?”

    Right here – “I search for single men 35- 40 without kids making 100k a year”

    There. Dunno if it’s a requirement, or just a statement of what she first looked for.

    I believe she’s saying she needs 100k *above* her current income (total 180k), to support a family of three. Unless she plans on retiring, and supporting the family on 100k. Not sure which.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    Sue: “For a guy to not have many hot female friends on fb requires effort. My kids and their friends have 1300 friends or more. The bar is very low for being friends on fb.”

    I think BB meant proportion, not absolute. If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… then the incidence is more common than random chance in real life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is Gimme Fountain Head (great name) another PJ moniker? I’m getting confused.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… then the incidence is more common than random chance in real life.

      That just tells me he hangs out with barflies, skanks and strippers.

  • Jayn Rand

    “They might try to befriend your children so that your children could know hope. They might try to help them avoid the fate of becoming a poor teacher and leading a life of despair.”

    I’d tell them to fuck off and burn in the hell that exists in emotionally based belief systems.

    Someone;
    ” Guys wants to be a VC, PE fund manager, hedge fund manager, investment banker, or proprietary trader: -2 pts.”

    Susan, “Interesting – I personally know about a dozen guys in these jobs at age 23, 10 of whom are in serious relationships. But most of them had 0 or 1 relationships in college. A lot of them were varsity athletes – Wall St. loves Div 1 athletes. Also, a lot more guys think they’re going to get these jobs than actually do. A lot of entitled, connected, not necessarily bright bro type guys want into the business. Some of them get in, but a lot of them can’t stay in. Several of the guys I know who graduated college in 2009 got the axe in March at bonus time.”

    - Susan, I think that commenters post may have been that those jobs suck a lot of time and life out of the person working in them.

    I know an investment banker who worked literally 16 hours per day. He married another investment banker who does the same. They have a live in nanny half the year and the other half his mother flies over and lives with them as the nanny. They see their toddler for about 1 hour every day.

    What kind of “life” is this?

  • Kaehu

    I was a rower in college (35 years ago). One rule that was strictly enforced, at least at my school, was absolutely NO drinking of alcohol during the fall and spring rowing seasons because it was believed to (and does) hurt performance (it was then legal to drink at age 18). You would be automatically off the crew for the season if someone reported you drinking.

    The other thing about rowing is that it forces you to be disciplined in your student life, because you were often practicing on the water several hours a day, and had to schedule your studies around that. So crew tended to attract jock/nerds, and a lot of pre-med and pre-law types.

    One problem with your thesis, however, is that most of us didn’t have much time for a girlfriend between studying and rowing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kaehu

      One problem with your thesis, however, is that most of us didn’t have much time for a girlfriend between studying and rowing.

      Good point. Those 4 a.m. alarms certainly are not conducive to sleepovers. :P

      I believe that today, it is common for athletes to abstain from alcohol before any competition. Many varsity athletes get drunk on Sunday nights as a result. :(

      A lot has changed in 35 years, unfortunately. (Sounds like we’re about the same age.)

  • JP

    “I know an investment banker who worked literally 16 hours per day. He married another investment banker who does the same. They have a live in nanny half the year and the other half his mother flies over and lives with them as the nanny. They see their toddler for about 1 hour every day.

    What kind of “life” is this?”

    A life of profound glory and awe.

    To be an investment banker is to be counted among the relevant. People who matter. People who count.

    Look around you on the streets at the irrelevant masses. Do you think that their voices run the world? Do you think that when they speak, life itself listens to their words?

    No.

    The investment banker, the venture capitalist, the hedge funder, the Fortune 500 CEO.

    These are the people who truly live life.

    They have achieved.

    These are the people who matter and without whom there would be no life worth living.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.”

    Didn’t you just say that if you had married any of the men you dated before your husband, you would have divorced them by now?

    What if the poor entrepreneur was in such a situation?

  • JP

    “Tech is the future, those guys (and girls) will have the last laugh. We’re not going to be able to do anything without them. Of course not all of them will be wildly successful. But a large portion of wildly successful people will be in tech.”

    Tech was the future in the past.

    Progress has a “reverse gear”.

  • Jayn Rand

    “If a man’s friend list is 70% F-cup bikini babes… ”

    Generally F cuppers are on the heftier side.

  • Jayn Rand

    Susan, “Tech is the future”

    Yeah, for H1B visa holders ;)

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ran into a Div 1 hockey player who made the case–it was true for him–that the school’s hockey team averaged pretty smart because their serious practice started about two weeks before finals for the fall quarter. Winter quarter was, obviously, pretty busy. Wasn’t much fan pressure and alum pressure to keep semi-literate thugs in school for hockey, unlike the revenue sports.
    Pressler graduated 100% of the Duke laxers.
    That said, I helped a woman who’d blown a knee snowshoeing. As we were hobbling through the white and slushy, I asked about her knee. “I was a dancer.” Had had nine surgeries on the defective joint. Since talked to some folks who think only gymnastics is a worse orthopedic assault on the human frame. Football, they said, wasn’t in it. Weren’t talking about the head, admittedly.
    Also read something by a woman who had gone to see an acquaintance play lax, which is what caught my eye. Afterwards, she went out with him and four or five other guys to a local dive. In current parlance, the respect the others showed him–and presumably each other–brought the tingle. That was, of course, after the game, whose Indian inventors called “the little brother of war”. It wasn’t exactly a date…obviously…as much as it was some friends and a friend of a friend. They started a relationship shortly thereafter but I have no idea how it want. Lesson was friends and a friend of a friend is a good early venue. Low pressure, watch each other, see the guy’s friends and get a line of who he thinks is a good guy, not going to start making out at the large, round table.

  • JP

    “Is Gimme Fountain Head (great name) another PJ moniker? I’m getting confused.”

    She may be using three or four at this point.

    Her level of energy is increasing and her dynamism is beginning to allow her to expand her number of handles as she slowly conquers middle America with her wisdom tradition.

  • College Kid

    Thanks! I forgot to mention i’m a NJ native and i’m pretty sure it’s going to be hot tomorrow.

    A lot of the ideas sound great..i just have to figure out the logistics/locations.

  • Gimme Fountain Head

    @sue “You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.”

    As an experiment, I just sent this, verbatim.

    Her response? “titfuck me instead”.

    Yep, it’s a real dealbreaker!

    (For the humor impaired… It means it’s not a deal-breaker, if it is wanted.)

  • Kaehu

    “Good point. Those 4 a.m. alarms certainly are not conducive to sleepovers.”

    Fortunately, in college I was in a part of the country where the weather was generally calm enough in the afternoon to row then (we generally practiced between about 4-7 p.m., given light conditions). However, when I went to law school I joined a rowing club that did practice early in the morning, with the result that I sometimes dozed off in my 8 a.m. Crimes class. Not good, considering that I was seated in the second row! Anyway, I graduated from college in ’78.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyway, I graduated from college in ’78.

      Me too.

      Re early morning rowing, the Charles River is full of boats at 6 in the morning. It’s actually beautiful to watch. I think very early practice is typical in the East, not sure. Unfortunately, neither of my kids rowed.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Her level of energy is increasing and her dynamism is beginning to allow her to expand her number of handles as she slowly conquers middle America with her wisdom tradition.”

    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Actually, since the last 72 hours I’ve changed my moniker 3 times only because the moniker I was using “Atlas Shagged” was unable to post comments. Today, B&B also became unable to post, they were not even held up in moderation, they just would not post. I don’t know if Susan is banning or what. I do know that just now a program that I have not downloaded just appeared on my pc, so maybe this pc is on the fritz or the Feds/CIA are hot on my trail because my Middle America Mission is proving successful.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    For a college undergrad female, I’d say to just figure it out as you go, and develop what pilots call “situational awareness”. You will make mistakes, you will have your wins, you will have your losses, you will probably have your heart broken and you will probably break some poor guy’s heart.

    The emerging tactical situation on the ground—the “ground-truth”—will dictate the best approach.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d say to just figure it out as you go, and develop what pilots call “situational awareness”. You will make mistakes, you will have your wins, you will have your losses, you will probably have your heart broken and you will probably break some poor guy’s heart.

      Not bad advice, as long as she is granted fuck phantom immunity.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Same here – I know one person with Asperger’s and she’s female. ”

    That’s not surprising. Male Asperger’s tends to be mild but (relatively) common whereas female Asperger’s tends to be severe but rare.

    The opposite occurs for schizo/psychosis.

  • Jayn Rand

    Gimme Fountain Head July 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    @sue “You’re right, that should be a dealbreaker. A guy actually said that to me once. Like it was a hot fudge sundae.”

    As an experiment, I just sent this, verbatim.

    Her response? “titfuck me instead”.

    ___________________________

    Classy. Wow! What an impressive “culture”.

    And JP thinks Middle America doesn’t need my wisdom tradition mission?!?

    News Reporter to Gandhi:
    “What do you think of Western Civilization?”

    Gandhi:
    “I think it would be a good idea.”

    :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from Plain Jane/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from Plain Jane/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.

      And their commentary is getting more similar as well.

  • Jayn Rand

    Hope July 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    It’s reached that point. OTC/Gin Martini/Fountainhead? is now indistinguishable from PJ/Altas Shrugged/Jayn Rand.
    __

    That’s ok. According to the Advaita school of Vedanta we really ARE indistinguishable!

  • Maggie

    Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.”

    I did the college visit routine this past year and was surprised at how many of the college woman were heavy and this wasn’t just at Podunk U. Unfortunately, it mirrors what is happening in society in general.

  • Jayn Rand

    More 2 love!

  • Bully

    “The investment banker, the venture capitalist, the hedge funder, the Fortune 500 CEO.

    These are the people who truly live life.

    They have achieved.

    These are the people who matter and without whom there would be no life worth living.”

    If you say so.

    We come into this world with nothing and depart it with nothing but our deeds, good and ill.

    I’d prefer my deeds be a little more meaningful than “had a big bank account”.

    The key is to find balance and you will never find it working for 14 hours a day and sleeping for six.

  • Bully

    “OK, so which fields and degrees are not millstones around the neck?”

    Off the top of my head, medical, law, business, etc.

    “Wouldn’t you have to cultivate other aspects of yourself no matter what type of degree or job you got?”

    Well, yes, but a lot of degrees give you opportunity along the way to develop glib charm, sociability, etc. STEM rarely does. STEM is more about how things are, not how they appear. Which is fine for on the job but the world usually cares about the latter, not the former.

  • Fish

    @Susan
    “c. The name of a band from the 80s, e.g. The Smiths (+1 point)”

    my biggest pet peeve EVER!! I see kids with Metallica or Iron Maiden shirts walking around and I think “dude, these bands have albums older than you!!”

    Of course I do like some older Black Sabbath which is older than me. . .

  • Fish

    “Seriously. I can’t believe how chunky college girls are nowadays.”

    Maybe I see the bright side of things, but in visiting/interviewing for grad schools, I visited a BUNCH of schools: Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, Illinois, & Tulane. I saw a lot of “talent” on campus. Maybe it could be that I look for the best, or i am a sucker for the fashion of “tights as pants”, but I saw a lot of attractive girls.

  • Fish

    @Bully
    One of my best friends is an attorney, its starting to become a good way to get into a ton of debt and not get a job. I think overall STEM or business is a good way to go because there are jobs in those fields readily available.

    My little brother just graduated double majored in engineering & business, I keep telling him to look for jobs all over the country, he could make great money. In our city, there is not much in either area for new graduates . . .

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Whenever I read “spergy”, I feel like black people might feel they hear the n-word. Don’t ever say that to us, or we put you in the “Fuckhead” category and make you miserable.

    As someone with a relative on the autistic spectrum, I can’t say I find it offensive, but it definitely comes off as very distasteful.

    I also find it interesting that it’s a still a socially acceptable slur in the overly PC environment of today’s world.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of solar power or “hug a tree,” lol. Not Young Republicans. Though that still beats Greek letters.

    “This is what a feminist looks like” = -10,000

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “This is what a feminist looks like” = -10,000

      ROFL! I accept that!

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Having visited quite a few colleges, and hung out at two quite a bit, I was continuously amazed at how much thinner the women were than the general population.

    Agree 100%.

    Maybe college obesity rates have increased vs the past… but college girls are still WAY ahead of the general population in weight & attractiveness.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

    No doubt there’s going to be mounting pressure against the game as the future rolls on, but Hernandez has had gang affiliations dating back to his high school years in Connecticut. I have to believe that’s a much bigger factor than the physical tolls of the game.

    But to bring it back slightly on topic, it illustrates why major athletes are not the best bets. I have a few buddies who are/were major d1 athletes… They’re good friends and I enjoy hanging out with them, but I’d never want to see one of my female relatives or friends date any of them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But to bring it back slightly on topic, it illustrates why major athletes are not the best bets. I have a few buddies who are/were major d1 athletes… They’re good friends and I enjoy hanging out with them, but I’d never want to see one of my female relatives or friends date any of them.

      Having raised two kids, I naturally had the experience of seeing a few kids in the community rocket to local stardom on the basis of their athletic ability. The best athletes in high school have generally grown up with their obsessed and aggressive parents on the sidelines critiquing their every play, constantly sent to camps for development during school breaks, etc. They develop astounding levels attitudes of entitlement and self-love. Every one of them was a nice kid at age 8 and a total asshole by age 18 – this goes for women as well as men, though the men got more attention, so they were worse.

  • Largo

    Fish, what about a “Bach” shirt, or something like that?

  • http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/ MarkyMark

    WRT the Greek letters, it depends on what fraternity they represent. I was in the vets fraternity in college. We didn’t have pledging or initiation; the fact that you’d served was initiation enough. There are also Christian fraternities. The point is that it depends on the fraternity the man belongs to; if he’s a member of a vets or Christian fraternity, then that should yield positive points… :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The point is that it depends on the fraternity the man belongs to;

      I agree – I wasn’t thinking about other kinds of fraternities. There are also ones for scholarship. Though I would think it was kind of obnoxious if someone wore a Phi Beta Kappa t-shirt around.

  • Richard Aubrey

    A “cause” tee shirt is designed to help the wearer remember how to spell the cause. ’cause that’s about all an undergrad knows about any given cause, and if he knows more than that, it’s usually wrong.
    It’s a brag. Nada mas.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A “cause” tee shirt is designed to help the wearer remember how to spell the cause. ’cause that’s about all an undergrad knows about any given cause, and if he knows more than that, it’s usually wrong.
      It’s a brag. Nada mas.

      Here are some t-shirts I’ve seen on young guys in the last two days that meet my definition of “cause” or “values” related.

      Jimmy Fund Walk for Cancer
      Boston Strong
      I am the 99%

      I also saw this, which I thought was pretty funny:

      I Drink, You’re Cute

  • BuenaVista

    SW: “That does it! I retract the +2 for entrepreneurs! ENY knows me – bringing up cheating or deserting is the way to get me to rethink something.”

    I realize that this a fairly unserious discussion, but I feel honor-bound, as a stolid sort, to take it seriously.

    I don’t know any (active) entrepreneurs who have the time to run around or trade-up; I know quite a few, and one in particular, who perhaps lack(ed) the time to properly nurture their marriages. So if they’re successful (i.e., have a liquidity event or two), I suspect it is the spouse with the time on her hands who will take the money and run.

    Also, entrepreneurs work in incredibly policed work environments (you have to employ HR police to keep the sexual harassment monster from infiltrating the unit), so the odds of the 14 hour day turning into a 14-hour day with benefits are extremely low. This is in contrast to the PE, VC, investment banker worlds where everyone is a self-proclaimed master of the universe and scratching whenever they itch.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I don’t think I have ever wore a cause t-shirt, unless you count the Relay for Life stuff. That doesn’t really seem like a cause to me. sort of like “Go color Red!”

  • BuenaVista

    SW: football is done in 5-10 years because of Hernandez (and I assume the current focus on brain trauma). Also, never date a guy playing a traditional and/or violent sport (the new barbarians).

    While I don’t enjoy the NFL (homogenized schemes, grotesque injuries), I’m not sure that its reasonable to call the NFL “football” — as representative of how football is played through college, or why it has the social role that it has. All the money has turned it into something else.

    Worth noting is that riding a bicycle or skiing is much, much more dangerous. (And let’s not even get into mountaineering or back country skiing, where one takes life-ending risk — daily.) (Or aerobatic flying, in a flight show environment, where the 20 year mortality rate is nearly 100%.) Second, even NFL athletes live longer, and are healthier than those of the “safe” sport of major league baseball. Third, major sport athletes (save those at a jock mill like Auburn) graduate at higher rates with better grades than the student body at large.

    I played baseball and football in college, and one year of for-pay basketball in Italy, and have the shredded and repaired ankles, knee and shoulder to prove it. I’m rarely able to sleep all night because something starts to hurt. Nothing in my life has ever compared to a dozen tackles and an interception on an autumn afternoon. Nothing. And I don’t know any man who played the game who ever stops projecting his old self every time he watches a game — be it an 8-man game played next to a grain elevator in a town of 500, or Michigan-Iowa in front of 80,000. Since the objective injury data contradicts the media narrative of gladiatorial violence, I tend to view football’s opponents as people who are bringing a feminist or classist (do I repeat myself?) outlook. I think it’s a rejection of blue-collar style, the importance of male-bonding and brotherhood that emerge only in violent activities, and the sad fact that these athletes just don’t have to take shit walking down Avenue B, like everyone else does. In regard to this HUS context the plain fact is that a man with a brain who knows what a clean-and-jerk is has more access to women and always will.

    Hernandez is just an asshole who is lucky he wasn’t drafted by a team in a capital punishment state. There’s more than one Brady or Yanda or Barry Sanders or Dallas Clark or Ozzie Newsome or … for every Hernandez. Hernandez proves nothing other than some businesses do crappy due diligence on staff, or willingly overlook psychopathy in their most talented staff.

    Yay football. I was never scared playing football, but I sweat outcomes every time I am on my bike on an empty country road or dropping in at Silverton or flying a nonprecision approach into an untowered airport at night. What I’m doing these days is far more dangerous, and I’m hopeful that this metastasizing feminization of boys and men can be constrained.

    *****

    Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio, James Wright:

    In the Shreve High football stadium,
    I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville,
    And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood,
    And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel,
    Dreaming of heroes.

    All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home.
    Their women cluck like starved pullets,
    Dying for love.

    Therefore,
    Their sons grow suicidally beautiful
    At the beginning of October,
    And gallop terribly against each other’s bodies.

  • BuenaVista

    Is Jason Everman more interesting a man and relationship-candidate because he was a slender EMO musician with Nirvana and Soundgarden — or a Special Forces veteran of Afghanistan with a Columbia philosophy B.A.? Two forms of male brotherhood, here in one guy. If he settles down, will he be saying “yes dear” and disappearing nightly into his shop in the shed out back, or into the “man cave” in the basement? I doubt it. Do women really prefer the pussy with the man-cave?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/magazine/evermans-war.html?emc=eta1

  • JP

    “Off the top of my head, medical, law, business, etc.”

    Law is fine (if you get a solid job) until about age 40-45, at which point, if you don’t have a book of business or a nice gov-job or in-house, all of a sudden you find yourself on the associate scrapheap.

    My current problem is that I have way too much work.

    Also, I was making fun of “The Talent” with respect to IBanking. It’s been my theme since the practical joke that was 2008.

    I avoided I-Banking like the plague. As I did with NYC/DC or BigLaw.

  • BuenaVista

    Fish, if you wind up in Iowa City let me know and I’ll buy you a cocktail. In the midwest the only university towns I know of that compare are Madison and Ann Arbor. Most people really struggle when they leave. And as to the social scene for a young single man of your tastes: absolute bedlam.

  • SayWhaat

    It’s hilarious how one tongue-in-cheek comment predictably sent certain commenters into a tizzy.

    Honestly, you lot. My sister is STEM. Several of my closest friends are STEM. Hell, even I’m teaching myself some STEM-related material.

    It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.

  • BuenaVista

    On young men and a violent game:

    http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2009/11/17/1162349/big-two-hearted-iowa-river

    “… maybe it’s because they think guys like us should still play football. … and you will wish, if you are not careful, you were 22 again. But none of us ever gets to be 22 again.”

  • Vitor

    15-30: He’s a catch. Grab on and don’t let go – Hard to Get is a poor strategy.

    Which are the other strategies other than “hard to get”? I’m just curious here from the other side. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Which are the other strategies other than “hard to get”? I’m just curious here from the other side.

      I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

      Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

  • http://Bastiatblogger@blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Jesus, that Everman guy has the goods

  • J

    My comment was directed at SayWhaat and J who love the term.

    I picked it up at Roissy’s. Perhaps you should confront him as the term’s major popularizer.

    BTW, despite his crappy acedemic record, my son got a scholarship to a pre-engineering career exploratory program run by the engineering school that he’ll be attending in the fall. He is currently using his computer to “build a synthesizer.” I have no idea what that means, but he’s doing it “for fun.” Though very witty, he is quite the absent minded professor and has an intense focus on weird things. Luckily, he knows that his discussing those things ad nauseum is irritating to others. Foot on the spectrum??? Possiblly. I do feel that he is wired differently from average.

    I think J did it, and found an unmarried older man at her age, but she was hot, DD, and model-thin all by her own admission.

    Heh, heh. Still holding my own as an old broad, too.

    We also have no idea if Mr. J met DIT’s income requirements.

    DH didn’t have much when we married. He came from a poor family and had worked in one of those high satisfaction, high altruism, lower paying fields. He had mad people skills though and made the jump to the corporate world when we had kids and I quit working. The never married but still marriable thing was a fluke though.

  • Gin Martini

    You missed the part about in-group vs. out-group insults. A football coach calling a boy a whiny bitch, is different than his wife saying it. Now who’s spergy, bitch? ;)

    Yeah, you win, I know. But the question was, do you think DIT can replicate your strategy, plus get a richer man to boot, without your assets? I wasn’t trying to butter you up and sing your awesomeness, honest.

  • Bully

    “Law is fine (if you get a solid job) until about age 40-45, at which point, if you don’t have a book of business or a nice gov-job or in-house, all of a sudden you find yourself on the associate scrapheap.”

    I suppose that’s true, though every job has age discrimination. Even jobs like IT. It’s why I’ve set myself on a path such that if I’m 50 and no one wants to hire me, I’ll be just fine as is.

    Though I’ve pondered how much you can combat it by just looking after yourself.

    I’d wager a balding, sweaty, beer-bellied 45 year old runs into a good bit more age discrimination than a trim, fit, well-maintained 45 year old.

  • J

    Since the Hernandez case, my husband claims it will be gone in 5-10 years. It’s totally out of control.

    They’ll outlaw boxing first.

  • J

    Now who’s spergy, bitch?

    Quite possibly me if I gave birth to one.

    Yeah, you win, I know.

    I do? Oh, goody!

    But the question was, do you think DIT can replicate your strategy, plus get a richer man to boot, without your assets?

    I don’t know. I really didn’t have a strategy, and I’ve been repeatedly by DH’s friends that I’m not “his type.” Judging by old photos of him with tall, bottom-heavy blondes, I’d say that was true. What we had in common was similar dysfunctional childhoods, intellectual interests and senses of humor. And, to repeat, neither of us has much money then. I wasn’t trying to bag a rich guy. I’m not sure how you do that intentionally.

    I guess my strategy was pass up men with wholesome backgrounds as “pollyanna-ish” until someone with complementary dysfunction shows up. Not one I’d recommend. Too much luck involved.

    I wasn’t trying to butter you up and sing your awesomeness, honest.

    That was my LAST impression!

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    My son was all conference football, basketball, and tennis in high school. Captain and MVP of the latter two. Also NHS, mentor to at-risk students and on the county teen jury. He and his buddies were in no way assholes.
    Part of this is that my wife would qualify for a PBK tee shirt if she were interested. When something bad happened, personnel-wise details too sordid to mention, at the school, my son was in the tenth grade, captain of the JV football team. The varsity captains came to him for advice.
    “Boston Strong” is a slogan, a cheer. I like it. But a related cause would be raising money for prosthetics.
    A cause is–Reunite Gondwanaland. Ban hydrogen dioxide. Stuff like that. Things that should be done, or undone, something.
    Remember the kid we’re talking about. It was two years ago his parents let him stay up late enough to watch Jon Stewart. Now he knows as much as the grownups. Unfortunately true of approx 52% of them, anyway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My son was all conference football, basketball, and tennis in high school. Captain and MVP of the latter two. Also NHS, mentor to at-risk students and on the county teen jury. He and his buddies were in no way assholes.

      Of course not all varsity athletes are assholes. I’m talking about the odds here.

      And college athletics have changed a great deal in the last generation. So many of the athletes are pampered, spoiled, etc. A lot of them have poor character. I saw it firsthand in high school – you could literally predict personality and attitude based on the sport a guy played. You’d be wrong 25% of the time, but not enough to get rid of the stereotypes.

      Nearly every terrible story about underage drinking and sexual assault I can recall in the last ten years in my area occurred among varsity teammates and their groupies.

  • Emily

    I find the intent of the quiz a tad confusing. For example, even though I wouldn’t be personally compatible with Mr. 0-4 Alcoholic Drinks (I’m a bit of a lush :P), I’m sure he’d be an amazing and loyal boyfriend to any girls who do like him.

    I also have to agree with everybody else re: Mr. Entrepreneur. I also think it depends on the type of business he’s in. I know a couple of guys with tech startups who are devoted to their girlfriends (the girls also come from STEM backgrounds), but I suspect that things might be different with a guy who’s starting a DJ business.

    Also: this is more of a girl thing, but I am SO sick of people spamming my Facebook with their stupid photography “business”! : P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      even though I wouldn’t be personally compatible with Mr. 0-4 Alcoholic Drinks (I’m a bit of a lush ), I’m sure he’d be an amazing and loyal boyfriend to any girls who do like him.

      The points attempt to address how likely a guy is to be on the relationship market. IMO, guys who don’t drink at all are less likely to be actively seeking relationships, and they’re also likely to want women who don’t drink at all.

  • HereIAm

    The main question that I have with Susan’s quiz is – why not just select for the actual traits you’re looking for directly (IQ, EQ, drive, earning potential, etc.)? After looking over the quiz again it appears that this it’s for a female undergrad who knows of a guy on campus that she might be interested in and has had maybe a few short interactions with or only knows from groups setting. That is, she doesn’t know much about him but has access to campus/Facebook/public/passing-by info about him, and a couple interactions. Further, this girl is assumed to not be very perceptive and wouldn’t know how to distinguish trait qualities and features even if told what qualities to look for (otherwise, again, why not just attend to the actual traits directly). Under this sort of scenario, I could see some value in this sort of quiz that focuses on poor substitutes that might suggest attractive qualities. But even still, Susan, I would include the underlying qualities that you’re trying to capture in the quiz items. That way she can continue to follow-up as she gets to know him and figure out if he in fact has those qualities.

    I would completely remove “He’s a catch” status to someone scoring 15-30. Even if he scored 30 on this quiz she still knows very little about the guy.

    Oh how I detest awareness/cause t-shirts/buttons/ribbon/etc.
    Jimmy Fund Walk for Cancer – IIRC charities have problems getting actual donations from people during things like this b/c people end up feeling like they already did their part by “participating”.
    Boston Strong – I have to agree with Richard here. This is a ra ra thing. Continually do things that makes your community strong, don’t wear some t-shirt.
    I am the 99% – most likely they are the 1%, that is the 1% worldwide b/c about 2/3rds of Americans IIRC fall into the 1% globally and that puts a very different light on whatever it is they are trying to convey with this slogan.

  • Richard Aubrey

    There you are.
    Couple of items: I think the scoring is for women who have no idea of the guy to see if they should try to get closer. Or, to put it another way, which guys not to bother with. Knock out half or two thirds. Then try to see how things go.

    Woops. Dihydrogen oxide. Ban it. Kills people, corrodes things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the scoring is for women who have no idea of the guy to see if they should try to get closer. Or, to put it another way, which guys not to bother with. Knock out half or two thirds. Then try to see how things go.

      Exactly – it’s about filtering, which I say at the start of the post. 80% of success is filtering out poor relationship prospects.

  • HereIAm

    Richard,

    Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at. If it does have value (still hard for me to see it) it’s as a fast and frugal heuristic (that’s for Bastiat Blogger) which we are both saying. I can see a value in such a heuristic if it worked, but ultimately I think they have to develop real discernment (shout out to naturalistic decision making). But back to Sharon’s heuristic/quiz – I don’t think it’s very good even under the restrictions imposed and may provide false confidence.

    30 point college man:
    1 wears cause shirts
    2 eats lunch w/different size groups
    3 met at freshman orientation
    4 freshman
    5 occurs in February
    6 see at library occasionally
    7 plays college track/crew/tennis
    8 5-9 drinks/wkend
    9 holds eye contact, smiles back, and nods to your eye contact and smiles
    10 socializes among his and your friends with in group setting
    11 suggests hanging out in the daytime
    12 shows attraction/interest w behavior that is clear, not words
    13 1st tries to hold hands
    14 would commit to the right girl
    15 (entrepreneur NOW VACATED)

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “I suppose that’s true, though every job has age discrimination. Even jobs like IT. It’s why I’ve set myself on a path such that if I’m 50 and no one wants to hire me, I’ll be just fine as is.”

    Law is a strange beast.

    Remember, first you went to school and lost three years of earnings (and got $100,000 of debt).

    Next, you generally spend about five years trying to figure out what’s going on in practice, since you didn’t actually learn anything about actually practicing law in law school. This is presuming that you actually obtained employment.

    Now, you are about 30.

    In regular firms, you have about three to five years to come up with a major book of business at that point or you will be tossed out.

    I think that 30 is many lawyers’ peak earnings, particularly in BigLaw, where you should have hit about $250,000 in NYC/DC (although this will be ground down going forward). Much less for the bulk of attorneys who are non-BigLaw. Starting salary around here is $30,000 – $35,000. The guy down the hall from me was making less than his teacher wife for awhile and demanded his first raise by pointing out that he was paid less than his wife.

    I’ve personally been precisely flat since my first job (about the year 2000). I’ve just kind of gone up and down from where I was first hired, but always around the amount where I was first hired. And by “precisely flat”, I mean that if you added my earnings for all those years and divided by the number of my years of employment, the average would be my initial starting salary.

    It’s not “age discrimination” as you would find in a corporation.

    What occurs is that the number of legal jobs continues to decline and the number of lawyers continues to increase over time (legal jobs peaked in 2004 and 2013 has seen the most attorneys ever).

    If you go into business by yourself, you find that you have entered a saturated market where few people actually need your services.

    Lawyers are constantly trying to rip work out of other lawyer’s hands because there simply is not enough work to go around. It’s kind of funny to watch. In small (TV) firms, the classic move if you are an associate, is to shop yourself to a competing firm, go in to the office at midnight, toss all of the client files you were working on into a van, and start work the next day at a competitor.

    At corporate firms, you are generally trying to get the corporate client to come with you when you leave.

    I’ve seen so many train wrecks in terms of stupid lawyer tricks (in both larger corporate firms and small firms), it’s amazing. So, lots of lawyers are constantly making enemies of other lawyers.

  • Jayn Rand

    SayWhaat July 4, 2013 at 11:10 am

    It’s hilarious how one tongue-in-cheek comment predictably sent certain commenters into a tizzy.

    Honestly, you lot. My sister is STEM. Several of my closest friends are STEM. Hell, even I’m teaching myself some STEM-related material.

    It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.
    _____________________

    SayWhaat, didn’t you say be4 that the biggest a-hole you ever dated was a STEM guy?

    I’ve known a few a-hole ones too.

    Who the heck here is pimping the idea that STEM guys are “nice guys”?

  • Fish

    @BV
    I totally would have, but I ended up taking a different offer. I loved the sanctuary, great little bar. My only issue with Iowa was that I’m a huge Steelers hater & Iowa’s jerseys are like a carbon copy. I really liked all the people I met on my visit there. I also loved Madison, Wisconsin was actually my fav school of all I visited. Iowa is actually visiting the school I ended up enrolling at this year, I don’t know if you travel to any away games.

    I totally get what you mean about reliving, I watch UFC and my brain says “we could have totally done that (if they’d had weight classes in the late 90′s when I competed in Judo)”, then I remember I’ve had 6 concussions and a strong wind knocks me out.

    “Fish, what about a “Bach” shirt, or something like that?”
    +1 for liking classical music, -1 for wearing it on a t-shirt? I don’t really mind if a teenager wants to rock out to “number of the beast”, I just doubt highly that they’re actual fans.

  • Fish

    @Bully
    “I’d wager a balding, sweaty, beer-bellied 45 year old runs into a good bit more age discrimination than a trim, fit, well-maintained 45 year old.”

    I think it depends on your level. If you’re at the mid-upper management level, you’re probably fine. I know a lot of guys in the investments industry that had a lot of problems post 40 because even though they were making a lot of money, its basically sales and not far removed from entry level.

  • Bully

    @JP

    Very informative post, thanks for explaining. I’m kind of glad that I went into a degree/school that required little upfront investment (comparatively). Granted, I started in 2001 and got locked in when tuition was still somewhat reasonable. I think even regular undergrad degrees might be far more crazy expensive today, even after adjusting for inflation.

    I might not make as much on paper as a big law type but I’m glad for the advantages that I do have (job security, no debt, which means I can get my income into interest bearing investments earlier, etc.) I guess agility is just as important as raw income from a paycehck.

  • Bully

    I’ll also add that my employer (a Fortune 500) frequently hires people even in their 40s and 50s for our entry level positions. It seems that tech is a lot friendlier in regards to age, at least in my field.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Bully and Fish

    I’m glad I graduated with no debt. I did a PhD in physics and then went into management consulting. Some of my coworkers had huge MBA debts and so they felt a lot more stress than I did.

  • Bully

    I suppose that’s another variable to consider when choosing a career path; whether the interest on debt + opportunity cost of not investing those same debt payments sooner rather than later will be greater than the pay increase from incurring that debt.

  • Bully

    It feels like law in particular has a frightfully small window to make as much money as you possibly can to pay off debt before you end up on the scrap heap.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ” Every one of them was a nice kid at age 8 and a total asshole by age 18 – this goes for women as well as men, though the men got more attention, so they were worse.”

    I know two professional athletes.
    One is an NFL quarterback who is a pretty nice guy, pretty wife, three kids.

    Another is an NHL player (my cousin actually). Biggest prick on the planet.

    Certain types handle fame and fortune better than others.

  • Lokland

    “Though I would think it was kind of obnoxious if someone wore a Phi Beta Kappa t-shirt around.”

    Wait. The Greek letters actually stand for something in a recognized code?

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.”

    Couple Things.

    1. As to why its inappropriate. Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.

    2. No one has suggested STEM guys are the best boyfriends. Merely arguing against the claim that they cannot be based upon their degree.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Yes, the guy who looks most like a refrigerator has what it takes.”

    Despite your insistence that all men not walking out of concentration camps are unacceptable for mating and generally bad people that are incapable, most of them are doing just fine and have been for millions of years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Despite your insistence that all men not walking out of concentration camps are unacceptable for mating and generally bad people that are incapable, most of them are doing just fine and have been for millions of years.

      First, I do not appreciate concentration camp humor.

      Second, you’ve misunderstood (again – this is becoming a bad habit). We were specifically discussing the selection criteria for playing football.

      Third, the research suggests that a) women do not find hypermasculine men attractive, because high T signals poor partnering ability and b) males and females in the top quintile of the SOI have much higher rates of cheating and divorce.

      My job is to share information on the best strategies for successful relationships. The single most important strategy is aggressive filtering up front. Most women will never realize that, and I actually don’t care. None of this is personal to me.

  • Lokland

    @Susan


    Final, if the +1 category offers a higher ROI why are they given a +1 and not the +2?

    There are a lot fewer +2s, and the competition is a lot stiffer. There’s also more of a risk of mate poaching with a +2, as well as the guy developing a smirk over time.”

    This leads to multiple questions.

    So the +2 is the higher risk strategy but higher payout. How is that any different from pursuing an athlete (higher status, lower chance of success)?

    Similarly, if those guys are higher in value how are the women not getting them said to be not settling for the +1 category?

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat, didn’t you say be4 that the biggest a-hole you ever dated was a STEM guy?

    No, I have never said this.

    “It’s just silly to assert that the STEM Master Race automatically constitutes quality boyfriend material. As Hope said, there are many other factors that determine SMV/MMV. EQ being a major one.”

    Couple Things.

    1. As to why its inappropriate. Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.

    That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.

    The only people getting wound up are you guys. :)

  • SayWhaat

    Alright, enough with being bored on vacation. Enjoy yourselves, lol.

  • JP

    “I know two professional athletes.
    One is an NFL quarterback who is a pretty nice guy, pretty wife, three kids.”

    And he is going likely going to *hate* life in his later middle age.

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “It feels like law in particular has a frightfully small window to make as much money as you possibly can to pay off debt before you end up on the scrap heap.”

    Mainly because of increasing supply into a shrinking market.

    In fact, it maps extremely well to the female fertility window in humans. Once you are at the age for a high-risk pregnancy, your LMV is distinctly declining.

    As a general rule of thumb, 5 years out, lots of jobs, 10 years out, fewer jobs, 15 years out, still some jobs, but significantly fewer, and at 15+, you are on the cliff.

    Another problems is that a law degree makes you overqualified for a *ton* of jobs, so people often leave it off their resume when they are trying to find work.

  • JP

    Vacation?

    This is a work day. My schedule is stuffed to the gills starting in 30 minutes.

  • JP

    @Bully:

    “I suppose that’s another variable to consider when choosing a career path; whether the interest on debt + opportunity cost of not investing those same debt payments sooner rather than later will be greater than the pay increase from incurring that debt.”

    The problem is that the income projections in law are basically fraudulent or unknown.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.”

    This seems rather basic.
    Everytime I get together with my friends there is an Ahkmed joke and/or ‘did you attach the bomb to my car yet?’ within about 3 seconds.

    I would never do the same to a stranger.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Today was supposed to be a vacation day. Then it became a work day. I hope it doesn’t become worse.

    Not exactly this but a related topic came up yesterday at the 4th of July party. Why do girls always talk about match-making and guys? Are you aware that the Chinese are mobilizing in Xinjiang, the Russian have withdrawn from Tartus, and Mursi has been overthrown?
    Whatever.
    Anyways!
    They started talking about one particular guy.
    Oh X and X is cute.
    No X BECAME Cute. He really knows how to dress!
    *mutual nodding*
    I happen to know X, have for 6 years or so, friend of a friend and so on. And it’s true, the guy knows how to dress. Physically? No change. Although he does go to the gym some more.
    He also is a STEM guy, who is SLIGHTLY “spergy.” By which I mean, if we play pictionary or something, he will not understand all the references a normal person will, but he might understand what the Gulf War is.
    FWIW, most people’s defintion of “spergy” falls along that line *eyeroll*

    To me though, it was obvious this guy had no real flaws, going on 6 years ago, and it was obvious that he could probably improve his looks with SOME effort and that would happen over time. And I have seen this process again and again with many guys, being as I am now 26 and all and increasing SMV and etc.

    It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market. And note that, in finance, “Alpha” isn’t a dominant guy, “Alpha” are the risk-free gains you make, by buying something far, far, far cheaper than what you should have paid for it.
    There is ginormous “Alpha” here for anyone smart enough to realize it.

    “beta” is the riskiness of the asset. Market goes up 2%? This stock will go up 10%! on the other hand, market goes down 2%, stock goes down 10%. High risk, high reward asset…beta strategy ;)

    Over time, the market always adjusts, and what once generated considerable Alpha, is now a correctly priced stock sensitive to market swings, IE, high Beta.

    Good example would be my Jersey Shore friend, who was never that way in college, but slowly evolved into that over time, now has a good amount of attention, and is now a correctly priced asset. Not only that, but the slutty girls who are giving out sex are essentially tying to buy on margin and pushing the stock sky-high, which in turn encourages more margin-buying, and it will all end in tears when someone makes a call and you don’t have the assets to back up what you promised.

    It appears, if women are the buyers of an asset, that provides a stream of goods, that most young women are as incapable of judging the market as mutual fund managers.

    You have many women who do not do their own independent pricing, but instead chase returns.
    You have many women that instead of doing their own analysis, watch TV and think they have learned what a “good man” is.
    You have many women who are desperate for a “high value” asset and are trying to buy on margin.
    You have many women that see giant firms go under time and time again and decide to hell with the market.
    You have many women that try to pursue a diversification or “life-splitting” strategy.

    Ultimately, not an efficient market in any way.

    Obviously NAWALT.

    And that’s actually encouraging. For the women who are NOT like that, massive arbitrage, massive free alpha. The proper young lady who can evaluate a young man intelligently earns SMP returns equivelant to that of the richest kings.

  • Sai

    @ADBG
    “Are you aware that the Chinese are mobilizing in Xinjiang, the Russian have withdrawn from Tartus, and Mursi has been overthrown?”

    Hey now, I follow the news, but I don’t enjoy talking about it in public because
    a) it’s too likely to lead to somebody arguing over politics and I don’t want to do that in public
    b) it gets me into a pitch black mood and I have to continue thinking up a strategy for killing as many invaders as I can before doing myself in somehow to avoid capture (I have spoken to my dad about this and he seems to agree I’m better off dead quickly than tortured and gang-raped and starved and then dead anyway)

    “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market.”

    Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?
    Also, how long before payoff occurs?

    (The way you put it -”high risk high reward” sounds like gambling, and I don’t enjoy gambling because I lose way too often)

    …There’s something I just typed I feel I should probably apologize for. What it is and how many of them, I’m not sure.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @ADBG 219

    Good comment about being a value investor vs. a momentum investor and applying that to attraction and relationships.

    Preselection basically wants others to confirm that there’s enough value there (the price has started to rise) before entering a bid.

    If a woman can catch a man right as he’s starting to have his value be recognized (price go up) then it can be a useful “investment” strategy but if she waits too long until his price has risen so much that he is likely overvalued then it will likely have a poor payoff for her.

  • JP

    @Sai:

    “Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?”

    You don’t know this. You’re supposed to be finding someone you are compatible with.

    However, I will try to answer this question:

    (1) Avoid lawyers; (2) See out doctors/dentists/PA’s/teachers seeing administrative responsibilities.

    “Also, how long before payoff occurs?”

    It’s a human relationship, not a market transaction.

    “Payoff” is the relationship experienced as a pleasurable link between the people in the relationship.

    However, as with my answers above, payoff will occur approximately 5 years after the person beings practicing medicine/dentistry. For the PA, it will happen about a year or two after practice begins. For the teacher, it will begin once a principalship is achieved.

  • Fish

    @Beta Guy
    “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market. ”

    2 problems with this strategy. The first Sai pointed out, sometimes a penny stock is just a penny stock and that’s all it will ever be worth. The second problem, what happens when the guy’s value rises and he now wants to upgrade? Its akin to what BB said about values changing in the face of scarcity of assets. Would the guy’s mentality change in the wake of increased choices? Both situations point to the biggest challenges fund managers face (and in the SMP), proper valuation of assets is REALLY hard. DCF and other models aren’t fool-proof or 100% accurate. One of my favorite quotes seems appropriate “No plan survives the battlefield.”

    @Sai
    I agree with you on both points. I keep my news watching to sports, finance and sometimes when people start blowing up facebook over something. Financial news is pertinent to my job, sports I enjoy, anything else does not improve my day.

    Re: turd polishing
    You hit the nail on the head here. I’m not advocating that women should “buy on margin”, but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I believe one of the biggest problems in the SMP is mis-valuation. Mis-valuation of both yourself and the other person. If you’re rMV 8, find a guy who is RMV 8, you have no reason to go after a 5, hope he will turn into a 9 and be happy with you. If you’re a 6, find a 6 and be happy, or improve your own value and find a 7-8.

    Just like in real life, trying to strike it rich on penny stocks will more often than not lead to a lot of wasted time and money. It is gambling even if it is in the guise of making more money (or building a trophy spouse). . .

  • JP

    “Today was supposed to be a vacation day. Then it became a work day. I hope it doesn’t become worse.”

    The office is pressuring me to close it, since I’m apparently the only attorney in the office.

    There are a lot of them, along with a toddler, and only one of me. I don’t know if I can hold them off.

    I’m going to have to do recon and see if I have any reinforcements.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    JP,

    This month was a 340b adjustment month for us.

    See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340B_Drug_Pricing_Program

    What a headache.

  • BuenaVista

    “Embarrassing/blunt/rude question of the day: how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth? Also, how long before payoff occurs?”

    The materialism, not to mention the implication that men are opaquely (and natively) ‘turds’ and marrying them involves assuming that risk, is overwhelming here. This frame treats a mate as a mere utility, ignores the transcendence that describes a loving relationship, and reduces love to a random walk down Wall Street. If phrases like ‘in sickness and health, in good times and poor, until death do us part’ are meaningless, then I’d advise a life of amorous (and amoral) day-trading for modest rewards — not any sort of value investment.

    To extend the metaphor, Buffet always asserts the importance of going all in, and having a clear set of attributes (in his case, a simple business run by longterm managers, intrinsic high cash flows derived from a defensible market position) that determine value. It sounds like you are more of a gold-digger/day trader in outlook, if not a person playing relationship roulette. So it would seem that one necessary attribute for a longterm relationship is the mate’s naivete and capacity to be ‘polished’ by his spouse, which would be you. Of course, guys like that are everywhere, but they’re not going to give you the ‘payoff’ that you feel is your due. The ones who will pay off have too much on the ball to get involved with someone who presumes each man is a turd until he proves otherwise, or who has a timeline on her liquidity event.

  • JP

    Today is “homeless client day”, apparently.

    Obamacare is so toast.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Susan

    I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

    Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

    Good advice!

  • Fish

    My understanding in reading the blog here (in which Susan has delivered a consistent message) is that it is better to be more conservative and potentially filter out some “good” candidates than it is to be too lenient and let in some “bad” candidates. I don’t think Susan ever said there aren’t good examples of any “type”, but her message is to play the percentages and avoid “types” which have a high percentage of members who are not conducive to LTR’s.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    ADBG “It appears to me that a wise girl would adopt a Warren Buffet sort of strategy of acquiring valuable assets while they are priced insanely cheap by the market.”

    Sorry, but even though I did this with my husband, it’s completely idiotic to do this solely on “market value.” I would have been dumped a long time ago if I was merely “acquiring valuable assets” rather than being genuine and loving. Intelligent men have a very keen nose for sniffing out women who don’t truly love them.

    Sai “how can I tell the difference between who is valuable/who WILL be valuable, and who is the figurative turd I’ll end up fruitlessly polishing for decades through gritted teeth?”

    Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

      +1

      Note what is in this list, and what is not.

  • Sai

    @JP
    If you feel they want way too much from one man right now and you can’t give the people what they want… they’ll understand. (I think. This sounds like one of those times I need to be there to really get it.) Good luck.

    @BuenaVista
    I deserve everything you said in that post. I guess I should have also said there are at least as many female turds as male turds. (I once told a guy I couldn’t be with him, because he said his friends dared him to approach me while I was nothing but a huge ball of issues and would have brought him no pleasure.)

    I fear being useless or worthless or penniless, and that tends to spill over into how I look at others, especially those with whom I might live for a long time. I don’t ever want to get divorced unless there’s cheating, hitting or crime involved, so I need to make sure I lower the chances of us being one of those couples where each spouse dislikes the other for 40 years and can’t wait to be widowed. I won’t ask for something I myself am unable to offer (which is why I’m not a history major; I like history but couldn’t figure out how I’d eat).

    As for the economic terms -I’ve internalized things like SMV, MMV, appreciating/depreciating asset… I thought people saw me the same way, relationship-wise, so sorry for projecting.

  • Sai

    @Hope
    I just saw your post! Sorry… and thanks for helping.

  • JP

    @Sai

    “If you feel they want way too much from one man right now and you can’t give the people what they want… they’ll understand. (I think. This sounds like one of those times I need to be there to really get it.) Good luck.”

    Huh?

    I don’t understand what you are saying.

  • Sai

    @JP
    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work.

  • Sai

    D’oh

    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work, and somebody was trying to get you to shut things down for the day.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Sai

    I think it’s important to remember that all of this market discussion of mating and dating can be insightful and helpful. It can offer us some good things to think about when we’re meeting someone, to filter out “turds.” It can also offer us tangible things to improve on.

    But these ideas are just a model, a map, a framework. They are not reality itself and so while keeping some of these things in mind it’s important to also not become so paralyzed by over-analyzing.

    In the end we can study the pool all we want and avoid the deep end or the dangerous rocks in the corner but if we want to swim at some point we have actually dive in (or more gently enter if you please).

    I think it’s possible to analyze things in cold market-like ways when detached from everything and yet be open to feel and live love when the moment arises.

    I think that having some of the market-analysis insights can help us improve ourselves and choose better without necessarily making us so cynical or cautious that we never dive in.

    Dive…but choose well.

  • JP

    “D’oh

    I thought you said you were alone in the office and were swamped with work, and somebody was trying to get you to shut things down for the day.”

    I was semi-joking.

    I’m stuffed with new clients, so I have to meet with them.

    Mostly I just need one person here because many of my clients have significant psych issues, hallucinations, paranoia, et al. I have the one person, so I’m good. Everyone else went home (I’m not sure why we are open today).

    I just hate it when they close the office and I’m meeting with random psych client, because then I’m alone with a person who may or may not be in contact with external reality.

  • Fish

    @Sai

    “As for the economic terms -I’ve internalized things like SMV, MMV, appreciating/depreciating asset… I thought people saw me the same way, relationship-wise, so sorry for projecting.”

    Some do, most don’t. Actually, I could say that most do, but they arent aware of how their brains are processing it. I happen to love to look at things from that lens because I am very quantitatively oriented. There’s nothing wrong with trying to assess value as long as you remember it is only one side of the coin. It’s like baseball scouting. Sabermetrics became popular, but teams that were successful combined them with “old fashioned” scouting so they could see the whole picture.

    What Hope said about looking at values is important. I would equate that to one side of the coin and something that is impossible to quantify. The other half of the coin; looks, experience, chemistry, can be quantified very easily. I think the key to success is being able to take in all this data and filter effectively. I think its much like anything, the people who are most effective are the ones who can process the most data effectively and use it to make the best decisions. . .

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    In college I wore a shirt with the Three Stooges on front. I used to tell people I was all of them rolled into one guy.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Fish and Sai

    I agree and think that people are subconsciously judging how attractive and compatible someone else is and that gives rise to feelings of attraction and desire to be with the person.

    Someone who falls in love with someone does so largely based on subconsciously having their various SMV and MMV buttons pushed. There is likely some conscious thought and acceptance that goes into it too.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trying to take things apart to understand them but we have to remember that excessive examination in the moment will be very much like taking apart the gadget (either us or the other person) and will impede it from functioning.

  • Escoffier

    Emily, don’t rule out the teetotalers. I had a rather large wine collection when I got married and my wife doesn’t drink. I tried out some very good stuff on her and she hated all of it. Oh well, it saves us money and my cellar goes a lot further. In fact, when we got married she said, “You just doubled the size of your cellar.”

    There are benefits!

  • Hope

    Fish, how do you quantify chemistry? It seems far more subjective than, say, intelligence.

    In my own case, my attraction “meter” went up higher and higher as the guy possesses more and more of those character traits I mentioned. I don’t really care for the physical as much as the intangibles. Maybe where other women run into trouble is that they go for the physical (Sensing on the MBTI) over the metaphysical (iNtuitive on the MBTI).

  • Gin Martini

    BV, not Sai. You’re sort of new here, she’s using the words but doesn’t view men that way.

  • JP

    “Maybe where other women run into trouble is that they go for the physical (Sensing on the MBTI) over the metaphysical (iNtuitive on the MBTI).”

    I prefer thinking of myself as a “mystic hack” rather than an “introverted intuitive”.

    It uses less letters and It’s much more explanatory!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: value investing. I am an algorithmic futures trader, but a few years ago I started looking at equities because some of our HF clients wants us to consider running stock portfolios. I exhaustively tested a bunch of value strategies that tried to find a “great company at a great price.”

    So you would basically have a two-factor investment strategy containing one performance metric set that was allegedly good at identifying great companies, and another that was good at identifying cheap valuations. Combining the two metrics would allow you to list, say, the S&P 500 by their value desirability and then invest in the top ones.

    Greenblatt’s “MagicFormula” may be the most systematic published system for this kind of value investing, but of course there are many.

    The interesting thing is that if you decompose the performance and just buy the cheapest stuff with no regard for trying to determine quality, the cheap-only strategy outperforms the two-factor cheap + quality one (by over 200 basis points). This was true of Greenblatt’s stuff, Graham & Dodd variations, etc. A former Marine Corps officer-turned-finance-quant named Wes Gray found the same thing. The effect obviously depends a bit on the metrics used, but the underlying phenomenon being captured to generate the returns is the well-studied mean-reversion propensity in the equities market (this general approach will NOT work with commodities).

    I am not sure if this finding would carry over to the campus SMP. If it did, it would mean that a woman should target the most Aspie STEM and ride his mean-reverting penis as he rose to higher SMV, and avoid the football-playing fraternity golden boy who was destined to crash.

    I can mildly support a version of the mean-reversion story: in college, I played football and ran track, was a Pike, and was in Navy ROTC. My ROTC friends were the most socially challenged and mocked of the three, but since then they have vastly outperformed all but a handful of members of the other two communities. While the commissioned officers were flying F/A-18s, leading Marines, serving on submarines, etc., my fraternity brothers and most of the athletes tended to get extraordinarily dull, soulless, adventure-killing cubicle jobs after college.

  • Mike M.

    You may not be interested in the news…but the news is interested in you. Sticking your head in the sand is a recipe for disaster.

  • Mike M.

    And I’ll add that if an interest in current affairs and a disinterest in pop culture is all it takes these days to be considered “spergy”, I cheerfully admit it. But if following pop culture is your life, I pity you. It’s pretty thin stuff.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “First, I do not appreciate concentration camp humor.”

    It wasn’t humour. My first job involved working for a company who had a large mural of a concentration camp on the front wall (past the public area). It was meant to represent evil we should never do.

    I found it startlingly similar to that Harding guy in the Jesus pose you posted.

    Though I’ll concede it was in poor taste. I’m sorry.

    “Third, the research suggests that a) women do not find hypermasculine men attractive, because high T signals poor partnering ability and b) males and females in the top quintile of the SOI have much higher rates of cheating and divorce. ”

    I think you are misrepresenting the average football player who is neither extremely above average in T nor likely to be in the top quintile of SOI.

    Most of them are normal guys with normal levels of T.

    Extrapolating from a few extreme examples (QBs) onto a whole team seems quite silly.

    (Also, an important note, athletics are far, far less important in Canada than the US. There are no full ride athletic scholarships (illegal I think). Looked it up quick, they seem to be capped at one semesters tuition (or thereabouts). Not true of academics where they can pay you to go to school plus rent and booze money. Different set of experiences creates different types of kids.)

    ——————-

    “The single most important strategy is aggressive filtering up front. Most women will never realize that, and I actually don’t care. None of this is personal to me.”

    Could we not also draw an extrapolation then that the meatless types are also likely to cheat?

    If they are the descendants of the guys who couldn’t go hunting there mating strategy would be dependent upon having children with more than one woman, no?

    Or, IOW, why is your personal preference (nothing wrong with having one) be placed as higher moral beings (the part I disagree with) than others?

  • JP

    @Mike M:

    “And I’ll add that if an interest in current affairs and a disinterest in pop culture is all it takes these days to be considered “spergy”, I cheerfully admit it.”

    “Spergy” generally means that you only use your left brain and simply ignore the fact that your right brain exists and it’s actually important to use it.

    It really has nothing to do with the issue of the lower mind or the higher mind, which is your point.

    For example, it would be nice if PJ would use her right brain periodically to make her commentary better.

    Kind of what this book is about:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-His-Emissary-Divided/dp/0300188374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356721210&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Master+and+the+Emissary

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ BB

    I am not sure if this finding would carry over to the campus SMP. If it did, it would mean that a woman should target the most Aspie STEM and ride his mean-reverting penis as he rose to higher SMV, and avoid the football-playing fraternity golden boy who was destined to crash.

    Would this actually surprise anyone? Every person alive today is the result of billions of years of evolutionary success. We are essentially playing in the All-Star Game of Human SMP/RMP dynamics.
    This should apply doubly-so for college students. Don’t most of the staistics show that college students will marry, stay married, and be happily married too?
    I am not saying you need to get with the most disgusting or mean person on the campus. However, if SMP were like the NBA, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are getting groupies like crazy while Larry Bird gets occasional stares for being slightly less cool, and Bill Russel gets COMPLETLEY ignored because only a moron puts someone 6’9 at center.

    Jeremy Lin has performed admirably well and had a spurt of Lin-Sanity that practically only Hall of Famers could achieve. The Knicks never gave him a shot because he was a skinny STEM-Y Asian dude from Harvard, and everyone KNOWS he can’t play basketball.

    Just like everyone KNOWS those Sperg-y STEM guys are totally hopeless with women and could never be a good boyfriend. There are just no good men out there. It’s because Chivalry is dead.

  • Jayn Rand

    ” Insulting the disabled (at least in Canadian society) ranks on the acceptable scale somewhere between stabbing your mother in the hand with a pen and punching a baby.”

    “That’s hilarious, because none of my STEM friends would take offense. I read worse stuff on reddit.”

    - But would the disabled or those related to/caring for them take offense? That’s the point here.

  • BuenaVista

    “We were specifically discussing the selection criteria for playing football.” [i.e., refrigerator-sized dudes].

    Actually D-I football players at almost any position are extraordinary athletes first. We’re talking 300 pound guys who can put both hands on the rim, if not dunk (30″ vertical); we’re also talking 175 lb corners who run faster backward than a tennis player does forward — who will also blow up a 300-pounder to seal the edge. It’s also a very complicated game; I don’t think there are many dumb, fat guys playing football successfully at a high level. Last it’s also a developmental sport and in most good programs it takes three years to develop the strength and technique to see the field. It’s certainly a more demanding existence to pursue than, say, rowing.

    I’m probably being annoying. But it seems odd, this animus toward the game, and filtering in this fashion is the same as filtering out anyone who’s last job was “staff sergeant” — when his prior job, unremarked, was “Soundgarden.” Most people reveal themselves pretty well over a 30 minute coffee date. That would be my filter: half-an-hour of conversation vs. an avocational label.

    Sai:

    We tend to inherit and make manifest our worst fears, if we dwell on them. No person is “useless or worthless”, and certainly not anyone writing complete sentences here. Perhaps if you can convince yourself of that, men and their risks won’t seem so threatening. I was never happier in life then in the 200 s.f./fifth floor walkup I lived in once upon a time and that is the comfort I take when contemplating the risks and curves that life or a career or relationships impose. It’s really not that hard to assure yourself of an interesting and independent existence, prior to making that existence remarkable, with or without a companion.

    Anyway, the worst things in life (as is true with the best) are not material in nature. (I prefer to only proselytize for football, but I will say too that as a cradle Unitarian, I regret the decades I spent cultivating a unilateral self-reliance, as though I were capable of an immaculate, impregnable independence. But, Donne: no man is an island, etc. Bad stuff will happen, that’s just the way it goes.)

  • Jayn Rand

    For years now people have been blogging and commenting on the same subject matters and its seems that nothing has been made simpler.

    So here…

    WHY COMPLICATE LIFE?

    Missing somebody? …. Call
    Wanna meet up? …. Invite
    Wanna be understood? …. Explain
    Have questions? …. Ask
    Didn’t like something? …. Say it
    Like something? …. State it
    Want something? …. Ask for it
    Love someone? …. Tell it

    Life is short. Keep it simple.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Missing somebody? …. Call
      Wanna meet up? …. Invite
      Wanna be understood? …. Explain
      Have questions? …. Ask
      Didn’t like something? …. Say it
      Like something? …. State it
      Want something? …. Ask for it
      Love someone? …. Tell it

      Life is short. Keep it simple.

      +1 for PJ.

  • Fish

    @Hope
    I think that the majority of chemistry is communication skills and attraction which is very quantifiable. I also have the “meter” like you described. I think we may all be describing the same thing, just experiencing it differently.

    @BV
    I don’t really think market models strictly apply to the SMP because in a lot of ways the market is just way more complicated. Since there really isn’t any concept of “earnings” in the SMP its really just a straight value proposition. Again, maybe just the way I look at it.

  • Lokland

    @PJ

    “- But would the disabled or those related to/caring for them take offense? That’s the point here.”

    I believe that part of the point was lost on her…

  • Richard Aubrey

    neo-neocon had a piece on courage some time back. Consensus was that libs frequently dismiss the virtue with a sneer because they know they don’t have it, and should. But if it’s dismissible…pffft.
    Ditto football, imo.
    Or lax.

  • BuenaVista

    Fish, isn’t the whole SMP trope a production of the PUAs? There, earnings are simply notches, so they do indeed have a measurable earnings stream. That’s why they talk about how many strangers they fucked over 36 hours. So they have a happy little observable market with inputs and outputs. It’s like Farmville, only with condoms.

    If the SMP includes more than glandular spasms with a hierarchy of female or male forms, then, I agree: it’s just a metaphor, and one that breaks down and misleads if the objective is something of an emotional and moral achievement. I think this is where Sai is overemphasizing the metaphor, and freaking herself out. Rather, it’s useful as a point of departure.

    Still, I do find it informative when I do my backtesting with a SMV or MMV construct. I can (broadly) fit the SMP model to my dataset, and it is explanatory (predictive of what will happen next with me). But beyond attraction, and the qualifiers as one moves into relationship or marriage market values, it’s just a point of departure. Buffett doesn’t invest in love, but we must (or disavow ‘love’ entirely). Failing to understand this is to willingly blindfold one to the virtues of intimacy.

    All of my patents are in decision science, but it’s a lot easier to build a prepayment model than it is to score for the ineffable. And no one invests in the ineffable; they invest in a CEO who will meet his numbers or face getting whacked. And the convexity that depicts the risk of committing to complex people is breathtaking. So at one level it’s probably best to just ignore those risks: there’s a reason why fighter pilots are kids: they have no idea what they’re getting into, until they’re on fire or something, whereupon it’s just another “oh shit” moment.

  • BuenaVista

    I don’t regard this as a call to a moral collectivism, as did Hemingway. Rather, I view it, in the HUS context, to indicate two things. One, if just one boy is removed from his father by the State, the entire State falters. Two, it is gross vanity and ignorance for anyone to construct his own Iland.

    No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
    is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
    if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
    is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
    well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
    owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in Mankinde;
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Bastiat Blogger “The interesting thing is that if you decompose the performance and just buy the cheapest stuff with no regard for trying to determine quality, the cheap-only strategy outperforms the two-factor cheap + quality one (by over 200 basis points).”

    Now this is fascinating.

    As an aside, what do you think of the long-term (as in, 30+ year) value of gold? Not gold stocks, but physical gold?

  • Vitor

    I’m a big believer in laying it on the line. Express interest clearly – if you have comparable SMV to your target, that will save a lot of time.

    Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.

    So true. I’ve read something a while ago, I think it was written by a psychoanalyst, that women then to play “hard to get” to men who demonstrate sexual attraction to them, or romantic interest in them. In other other words, the guy was stating that women are naturally averse to men who demonstrate sexual or romantic interest in them, this being the reason why so many guys are unsuccessful with them, i.e., because they are not able to conceal effectively their sexual or romantic intention. Do you think this is accurate, or instead it just means that she’s not interested in the guy?

  • Vitor

    Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. You get a man like this, you fall in love with each other and take care of each other, and you are set for life, no matter what comes your way.

    I believe this is not gender specific.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Many relationships never happen even though both parties want it because they spend time posturing and jockeying for the upper hand.”

    My worst “relationship” was with a man who was constantly trying to one up me – in everything.

    I wanted a co-creator, not a co-competitor.

    Why would someone try to compete with a partner or love interest? I don’t get it.

  • Vitor

    With regard to my comment no. 266 (I believe this is not gender specific.) for the sake of correction, I would just change benevolently dominant to benevolently feminine to women. :) The same for other traits, e.g., how a woman is considered compassionate, kind, calm, confident, etc. in the point of view of guys.

  • Jayn Rand

    Benevolently dominant is a gender neutral trait. Unless you are implying my dominance is malevolent, Vitor in a tutu.

    ;)

  • Vitor

    Benevolently dominant is a gender neutral trait.

    I don’t find dominant women sexy or attractive. For me, definitely, dominance is not a feminine trait. Which should not be confounded with confidence.

  • Jayn Rand

    “I don’t find dominant women sexy or attractive. For me, definitely, dominance is not a feminine trait. Which should not be confounded with confidence.”

    I find confident men attractive (if they are in fact, good looking), however dominance is not a trait I value.

    If a man is good looking but not confident, then he’s still attractive. I mean, nothing takes away from good looks, does it? The hot are still hot *looking* even if they are mean or miserly. Doesn’t mean we will date or marry them, but we can still say, yeah, “he’s got a beautiful face or hot bod”.

    Even “confidence” is over rated. So what if someone displays some self doubt? We are only human.

    As long as a man looks good and shares my values and we are culturally compatible, I couldn’t actually care less about his so-called “confidence” or lack thereof.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayne.
    “”As long as a man looks good and shares my values and we are culturally compatible, I couldn’t actually care less about his so-called “confidence” or lack thereof.”” You will. You do. See endless discussions of “the restaurant”.

    Hope.
    “”Anyone who is valuable will show you value already. And by value, I really mean character. Look for a guy who is honorable, courteous, humorous, capable, moral, intelligent, communicative, honest, wise, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, loving, gentle, benevolently dominant, confident, calm and collected in a crisis, prudent, has realistic goals, is not a compulsive spender, knows how to save, values family, respects himself and others, is not hateful nor greedy for power, listens well to suggestions, is unafraid of emotional intimacy and depth, and cares deeply about you as a person inside and out. ”

    And see that you do it in three dates.

  • Jayn Rand

    ”As long as a man looks good and shares my values and we are culturally compatible, I couldn’t actually care less about his so-called “confidence” or lack thereof.”

    ” You will. You do. See endless discussions of “the restaurant”.

    Huh? Didn’t get that.

    But I really do think confidence is overrated. What difference does it make if a mate is “confident” or not?

    Before anyone says, “it signifies ability to gather resources for children” – NOPE.

  • Jayn Rand

    ALERT!!!!

    Susan check this out -

    Doosh taking a “new direction” in life.

    Summer Hiatus… Complete
    By Roosh

    I will resume posting again on Monday. There may be a couple short breaks here or there until the fall, but I think I’m ready to commit at least two posts a week for the remainder of the summer.

    I have to warn you that some of my upcoming posts will contradict older writings. In some cases it may seem like I’m taking an entirely new direction. This may trouble some of you since contradiction is often seen as weakness or confusion. But I see it as a complete circling of the whole. It reveals a man’s ongoing exploration of the extremes to determine the correct path that lies between. Virginity vs playerdom. Poverty vs wealth. Isolation vs social dependence. Employment vs unemployment. Apathy vs effort. Immobility vs travel. Alpha vs beta. True understanding can only come from testing all available paths.

    In the past I would proclaim a truth or theory based on only exploring one of the extremes without knowing the other. I gave advice without having a complete picture. When you also consider that my Western upbringing has pushed me towards a nonstop pursuit of achievement, “growth,” and ego-fulfillment without resting to see where I am along the path, I wonder if I may have missed some targets. So let’s see what you think of some posts I have coming up starting on Monday.

  • Vitor

    But I really do think confidence is overrated. What difference does it make if a mate is “confident” or not?

    I think that for both gender it actually means that romantic interest is being clearly expressed, good communication, playful teasing, etc.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Fish

    You hit the nail on the head here. I’m not advocating that women should “buy on margin”, but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I believe one of the biggest problems in the SMP is mis-valuation. Mis-valuation of both yourself and the other person. If you’re rMV 8, find a guy who is RMV 8, you have no reason to go after a 5, hope he will turn into a 9 and be happy with you. If you’re a 6, find a 6 and be happy, or improve your own value and find a 7-8.

    100% agree.

  • Anacaona

    I believe one of the biggest problems in the SMP is mis-valuation. Mis-valuation of both yourself and the other person. If you’re rMV 8, find a guy who is RMV 8, you have no reason to go after a 5, hope he will turn into a 9 and be happy with you. If you’re a 6, find a 6 and be happy, or improve your own value and find a 7-8.
    First that only works with people that actually are self aware enough to be honest with themselves.
    Second that also only works with people with low hypergamy in the case of women and low emphasis in looks in the case of men.
    Third you need to remember that long term orientation is a predictor of happiness. People that can see ahead future problems with rewards with certain choices do infinitely better than people that live in the here and now. So telling people that try and imagine a bit of how things might change before the enter in a relationship is good. Avoiding unnecessary heartbreak is actually good to maintain one’s SMP, and specially MMV and RMV, YMMV.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayne.
    ”As long as a man looks good and shares my values and we are culturally compatible, I couldn’t actually care less about his so-called “confidence” or lack thereof.”

    ” You will. You do. See endless discussions of “the restaurant”.

    Huh? Didn’t get that.

    But I really do think confidence is overrated. What difference does it make if a mate is “confident” or not?

    Before anyone says, “it signifies ability to gather resources for children” – NOPE.

    Referring to various discussions of dominance and confidence. Apparently, a man should be “in charge” of various things. The “restaurant” [he should be the one to decide where they're going] is a metaphor for taking charge. Even Hannah Rosin, talking to Tucker Carlson about her book, agreed that failing to take charge in a restaurant situation–metaphor for the general concept–would cause a woman to look at a man with contempt. So it’s the restaurant, the theater, the flick, the bar, the park, the coffee shop, the time they’re leaving for whateveritis, or forget it, dude.
    Women in general, feminists in particular, will deny this as a general proposition, but cop to it when pressed.
    They don’t want a domineering, dominating, patriarchal boss, but if he’s not absolutely on top of where they’re going to eat, he’s a wimp and a loser.

  • JP

    @Richard:

    “But I really do think confidence is overrated. What difference does it make if a mate is “confident” or not?

    Before anyone says, “it signifies ability to gather resources for children” – NOPE.”

    Confidence is critical to obtaining resources in the current global financial hypereconomy.

    Remember, confidence will allow you to get closer to the CEO of whatever Fortune 500 for which you work.

    The closer you get to the golden fountain that is the CEO, the more resources, in the form of cash, perks, and status will flow into you from the corporate coffers.

    In fact, actual ability may *hinder* your ability to obtain cash, perks, and status. If you understand what is going on, then you are less likely to inappropriately place blame within the interior of the corporation, meaning that you are more likely to accept responsibility and have your good name tarnished, possibly causing you to fall from the high places.

    See the following article:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201302/narcissism-and-leadership

  • Fish

    @Ana
    “Second that also only works with people with low hypergamy in the case of women and low emphasis in looks in the case of men.”

    SMV is more looks dependant that RMV but looks will ALWAYS be a component for men. I would agree with you on being self aware, but anyone who isn’t self aware is going to run into relationship problems regardless. The first question anyone needs to answer for themselves is “Who am I and what do I want out of a relationship?” (ok, thats a compound question, but still. . .)

    Poor self assessment leads to one of 2 problems: dating poor quality people or feeling like you’ve “settled”. Both are damaging for long term prospects. There are probably a subset of people who are fine just settling to be in a relationship, but I would surmise they are an extreme minority.

  • JP

    “The first question anyone needs to answer for themselves is “Who am I and what do I want out of a relationship?” (ok, thats a compound question, but still. . .)”

    What do you even mean “[w]ho am I”?

    You are always going to store a portion of your identity in other people (and, to an extent, places) because your identity is inter-subjective.

  • Anacaona

    SMV is more looks dependant that RMV but looks will ALWAYS be a component for men.
    Yeah but if the men willing to date crazy because she is hot will do as well as the women that are willing to date cads because they are Alpha. Also if looks are the most important reason to stick around age will make a man lose interest so is not a long term investment in the relationship. The same applies to Alpha chasers. Ted C first wife lost interest when he concentrated on providing for his family instead of keep playing the rebel vibe they had when they met. Hence why long term projection is better to fix this dating mess,YMMV.

  • JP

    @Fish:

    “The first question anyone needs to answer for themselves is “Who am I and what do I want out of a relationship?” (ok, thats a compound question, but still. . .)

    Poor self assessment leads to one of 2 problems: dating poor quality people or feeling like you’ve “settled”. Both are damaging for long term prospects. There are probably a subset of people who are fine just settling to be in a relationship, but I would surmise they are an extreme minority.”

    I thought that one of your features was a lack of relationship experience and significant experience in massive numbers of ONSs and STRs.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Ana

    Ted doubled down on being the nice and helpful guy, just trying to do what would please her. With red pill and game knowledge he may have been able to keep her attraction alive but in the end no one wants to have to be making tons of effort just to keep someone around. Probably was just a poor choice to marry her in the first place.

    I’m glad his current marriage is going well, though. And with his better understanding of attraction now and great progress in having lost a lot of weight I’m sure that things will continue much better.

  • Jayn Rand

    Abbot July 6, 2013 at 11:29 am

    Finally, an admission that “preferring” to avoid commitment to certain women is really “slut shaming” and “misogyny” to boot!

    “The last gentleman I pursued was warned by a friend of his, “Don’t ask her out! Don’t you know she dated name-of-man?!” That really hurt my feelings to be solely identified by and villified for my sexual past.”

    Coming soon: how the rejection of sluts for commitment leads to “rape culture” thus such rejection must stop. Yep.
    ___________________

    I don’t get it – even merely dating someone is grounds for not asking someone out and “rejection of sluts”???

    Example:

    “The last gentleman I pursued was warned by a friend of his, “Don’t ask her out! Don’t you know she dated name-of-man?!”

    ” Coming soon: how the rejection of sluts…”

    - Well, good luck finding someone who has never even dated before.

    You’d have to fly to a strictly arranged marriage region and then you would not be able to date them, much less marry them, either.

  • Jayn Rand

    Richard Aubrey,

    “Referring to various discussions of dominance and confidence. Apparently, a man should be “in charge” of various things. The “restaurant” [he should be the one to decide where they're going] is a metaphor for taking charge. Even Hannah Rosin, talking to Tucker Carlson about her book, agreed that failing to take charge in a restaurant situation–metaphor for the general concept–would cause a woman to look at a man with contempt. So it’s the restaurant, the theater, the flick, the bar, the park, the coffee shop, the time they’re leaving for whateveritis, or forget it, dude.
    Women in general, feminists in particular, will deny this as a general proposition, but cop to it when pressed.
    They don’t want a domineering, dominating, patriarchal boss, but if he’s not absolutely on top of where they’re going to eat, he’s a wimp and a loser.”

    Ahhhhh, ok. I was confused by you saying “see the restaurant thing”.

    Still, I don’t agree. Hannah Rosin is that chick with a TV show Susan lurves, right? I don’t watch TV and am not particularly interested in American mainstream pop culture, in fact, most of what I’ve been exposed to repulses me and I can’t relate to it at all.

    So – American mainstream pop culture “values” are not my values.

    Regarding restaurants, I don’t generally eat out.
    1: because I don’t like to and
    2: because of my value system I cannot eat in that type of food and in those types of environments and
    3: I am one of the best cooks and raw food preppers I’ve met so American restaurant food, even what passes for “gourmet” here does not hold a candle to what I can create in my own kitchen.

    Nonetheless, if I was a restaurant goer there is no way in hell I’d leave what “food” I put inside my own body up to someone else. So no, I would not see a man making such health decisions for me as anything desirable.

  • Abbot

    “good luck finding someone who has NEVER even dated before.”

    Not a stated goal anywhere. But a typical attempt at a redirect or perhaps you’re reading something from another post or blog.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Not a stated goal anywhere. But a typical attempt at a redirect or perhaps you’re reading something from another post or blog.”

    Um, NO. I read directly from what YOU posted here.

    Again:

    “The last gentleman I pursued was warned by a friend of his, “Don’t ask her out! Don’t you know she DATED name-of-man?!”

    And you commented on that by following with the subsequent statement;

    “Coming soon: how the rejection of SLUTS for commitment…”

  • Jayn Rand

    “If women in the US are “dating” without exposing their vaginas to penis, then the term “dating” is no longer the extremely well understood euphemism for FUCKING. Is that the case? Or is Saturday also known as obtuse-day?”

    Dating means dating. That’s the word the original writer of the qoute wrote and what you copied and pasted.

    If you people have a problem using words to mean what they mean, I can’t be blamed for your lack of cognitive ability.

  • Jason

    Hi Susan, have you read this one?

  • Caesar

    “Dated” is not the same as “went on a date with”. The former usually implies a short-term relationship.

  • Abbot

    “Dated” is not the same as “went on a date with”. The former usually implies a short-term relationship.”

    shhhh….don’t spoil the fun

  • JP

    “If women’s reputations are not on line, why does sexual behavior become more conservative after college?…..Bogle twists herself in knots attempting to answer this conundrum”

    Well, for starters, college is somewhat dysfunctional as a human developmental tool.

    I also suspect that it’s getting worse with time, not better, for reasons that have little to do with hooking up.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayne.
    Hannah Rosin wrote “The End of Men” or something like that. After going around with Carlson, they got to the restaurant–metaphor–thing. Agreed. The guy had better be in charge or even women like Rosin would view him with contempt.
    And, the issue is not what you eat. It’s whether the guy chooses the restaurant–metaphor–you’ll be going to. No indication that he’s supposed to order for you but some women have mentioned that in conjunction with tingles.
    No. Don’t try to discuss it rationally. ’cause it isn’t.
    Confuses the hell out of men who don’t care what they eat or where.

  • Jayn Rand

    Caesar July 6, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    “Dated” is not the same as “went on a date with”. The former usually implies a short-term relationship.
    ____

    But even then Abbot’s commentary doesn’t follow because he’s talking about “sluts” (his fave subject). To be precise he said,
    “Coming soon: how the rejection of sluts for commitment ….”

    Nothing about STRs there.

  • Jayn Rand

    Richard Aubrey July 6, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Jayne.
    Hannah Rosin wrote “The End of Men” or something like that. After going around with Carlson, they got to the restaurant–metaphor–thing. Agreed. The guy had better be in charge or even women like Rosin would view him with contempt.
    And, the issue is not what you eat. It’s whether the guy chooses the restaurant–metaphor–you’ll be going to. No indication that he’s supposed to order for you but some women have mentioned that in conjunction with tingles.
    No. Don’t try to discuss it rationally. ’cause it isn’t.
    Confuses the hell out of men who don’t care what they eat or where.
    ________________________________

    Like I said, I CAN’T RELATE.

    And the men I associate with very much care about their health so they do indeed care about what and where they eat.

  • Anacaona

    Ted doubled down on being the nice and helpful guy, just trying to do what would please her. With red pill and game knowledge he may have been able to keep her attraction alive but in the end no one wants to have to be making tons of effort just to keep someone around. Probably was just a poor choice to marry her in the first place.
    My point is that a woman of character upon losing attraction for her husband will have find a way to communicate it to him and consider divorce the last possible choice. The point of character is to make good for the words ‘for better or worse’ and no ‘for as long as my panties get wet’. I’m sure he selected better but many young people select for superficial traits only hence a HUGE part of the problem. If being attractive was all there was for success in relationships Hollywood will be filled with long relationships, obviously the opposite is true, YMMV.

  • Fish

    @JP
    “I thought that one of your features was a lack of relationship experience and significant experience in massive numbers of ONSs and STRs.”

    I’ve been in multi-year relationships, I just have never been married. I ALSO had a lot of STR’s (and a few ONS’s)

    @Ana
    I didn’t say looks are the most important, but they are a major component. Especially in “prime” years. It is what it is, guys want to maximize value from a looks standpoint. Long term viewpoint may very well be a predictor of success, but it will never be the only criteria.

    Also, we can argue all day what is the ideal. Ideally there would not be “sluts” and everyone would pair off with someone of equivalent value. There would be no market inefficiency. That isn’t the market that we exist in.

  • JP

    @Ana:

    “The point of character is to make good for the words ‘for better or worse’ and no ‘for as long as my panties get wet’.”

    I suspect that permanent attraction was a presumed part of the package. Marriage just locked that in, right?

    Until it mysteriously vanished.

    At which point the marriage vanished.

    Is “for richer or poorer, in sickness or health” even part of any civil ceremony anyway? Or do you just sign your name on a marriage document, get it notarized, and move on?

  • Jayn Rand

    “Ted doubled down on being the nice and helpful guy, just trying to do what would please her. With red pill and game knowledge he may have been able to keep her attraction alive but in the end no one wants to have to be making tons of effort just to keep someone around. Probably was just a poor choice to marry her in the first place.”

    - Some women, like that “homesteader” Sunshine Mary, are irrevocably damaged.

    Her husband cheated on her 30+ times and her attraction for him WANED when STOPPED cheating.

    I don’t even wanna think about the things that most likely happened to her in her childhood to get her neurology so messed up.

    Should men avoid women like this?

    Until they get some serious therapy, I say YES.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Fish,

    Perfect markets are fictional constructs that do not exist outside of economics class-rooms. Economic activity is built on top of a governmental, social, and cultural framework and those norms and institutions determine how efficient or inefficient a market is.

    For instance, the famous “Tragedy of the Commons” problem has a number of non-market, non-property rights solutions to it. Elinor Ostrom won a nobel prize in part for studying this.

    The mating market also requires norms and institutions to work properly. For instance, the idea that you can’t judge a man’s character in 3 dates? Yes, I do not understand this. I have never been surprised by the behavior of any man I have ever personally met.

    Perhaps male family members having a veto on a girl’s dating prospects, served an essential role in MAKING the market-place more competitive.

  • Fish

    @Beta Guy
    “Perhaps male family members having a veto on a girl’s dating prospects, served an essential role in MAKING the market-place more competitive.”

    Perhaps, but those times are dead, probably never to be returned to in this country. I’m not arguing for a perfect market, I’m trying to encourage tactically what would work in the current SMP. Looks count. They always have, they always will. People may judge differently what is most appealing, but that will always be a major component to relationships.

    I’ve never said other qualities aren’t important. Personally, the girls that I’ve been with who are the hottest were not the “best” prospects from a relationship perspective. But the “best” prospects were all at a certain level of attractiveness.

  • Jayn Rand

    Fish, weren’t you the one who said “confidence” was important, or that you were attracted to confidence, in addition to looks and other things?

    So if someone’s good looking and has other qualities that you admire, if they display self-doubt or otherwise not “confident”, maybe shy and awkward, would you consider them not as attractive as the woman who had the looks, qualities AND confidence to boot?

    Confidence has an attractor is an interesting concept to me and I’m trying to flesh out exactly what is meant by it.

    Personally I’ve known some very good looking yet socially un-confident men, and that lack of confidence did not distract from their looks in my opinion.

    I’ve also dated some men who were good looking and compatible with me on a values/character level who were not socially confident and it didn’t strike me as odd or a lady boner killer either.

    I was attracted to them because they looked good. I felt chemistry with them because of similar culture and values. Confidence wasn’t a factor in the attraction or chemistry at all.

    So – why “confidence”? I’ve heard it said before and read it here, but is there something that “confidence” signifies that makes it important somehow? Or is this just a mainstream American meme?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn
    ________________________________

    Like I said, I CAN’T RELATE.

    And the men I associate with very much care about their health so they do indeed care about what and where they eat.

    I can’t relate either. Which means absolutely jacksquat. It’s the way things are.
    As to health, I figure everything that’s bad for you will be good for you in six months–nine, tops–and vice versa. So I don’t pay attention to it and I average okay without having to worry.
    Point is, guys who’ve been soldiers, had rough jobs, irregular schedules, will eat anything at any time and are, in Susan’s description, “indifferent”, rather than too wimpy to impose their view of the “restaurant [metaphor for various things where the guy is supposed to be making decisions about the unimportant or he's a wimp and a loser].
    WRT confidence, lack of confidence is a negative attractor. Nobody likes being around one of those folks. Not as a roommate, classmate, teammate, friend…. Confidence is a tell or proxy for competence. Nobody likes to be around the incompetent, either.
    And whether you get this or not is, wait for it, meaningless.
    It’s they way things are. I know. I read this blog.

  • J

    Hi Susan, have you read this one?

    This links to an article by Wendy Shalit. I’ve met her; she’s an impressive young woman.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Yeah, it is assumed that a “winner” will have relaxed confidence, take risks, project high social status, be a rebel who is relatively unfazed by pressure, etc. It is assumed that the person who lacks confidence will play it safe, be obedient to authority, have neurotic hang-ups, etc.

    The confidence that is revealed is often superficial and judged over trivial things, so we may get scenarios like Richard describes wherein the Special Forces veteran with 1200 high-altitude freefall jumps fails to be decisive about casual restaurant choices, and a girl stupidly nexts him for it under the mistaken assumption that he “lacks confidence”.

    Women can project the sexy confidence, too—the SMV10 bombshell girl who says matter-of-factly to her BF, “I can’t wear that red Zac Posen dress to the party—it will create a scene. The married men will ignore their wives and stare at my breasts all night, the wives will hate me and complain, and the single guys will be total pigs. You may end up having to hurt someone.”

    I think that perhaps a difference is that men may be more sensitive about high confidence in a woman being linked to hotness (a highly confident non-hot girl may be considered delusional, annoying, and unattractive), while women may hold looks and confidence as independent attributes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      the SMV10 bombshell girl who says matter-of-factly to her BF, “I can’t wear that red Zac Posen dress to the party—it will create a scene. The married men will ignore their wives and stare at my breasts all night, the wives will hate me and complain, and the single guys will be total pigs. You may end up having to hurt someone.”

      I call that NPD. No doubt some men find that sexy.

  • J

    Some women, like that “homesteader” Sunshine Mary, are irrevocably damaged.

    But she forgaaaaaaaaaaaaave him, so it’s all okaaaaaayyyyy now.

    But seriously, if he had 30+ women before the marriage, how many did he have before? How high is his total N? What does it say about his character that he hopped from woman to woman like that? What does it say about her character that she found that attractive? And why does she insisted on projecting that dysfunction on the rest of us? When she says that women like these high N guys, I wish she’d limit that observation to herself and others like her. I personally am disgusted.

  • SayWhaat

    The confidence that is revealed is often superficial and judged over trivial things, so we may get scenarios like Richard describes wherein the Special Forces veteran with 1200 high-altitude freefall jumps fails to be decisive about casual restaurant choices, and a girl stupidly nexts him for it under the mistaken assumption that he “lacks confidence”.

    Bastiat, you misunderstand. It has nothing to do with “confidence”, but rather emotional investment.

    If a guy signals that he doesn’t care about taking her out for a good time, then he is demonstrating a lack of emotional investment.

    Nexting him is a smart decision.

  • SayWhaat

    I have never been surprised by the behavior of any man I have ever personally met.

    You must have a limited social circle. ;)

  • Richard Aubrey

    f a guy signals that he doesn’t care about taking her out for a good time, then he is demonstrating a lack of emotional investment.

    SayWhaat.
    No connection. Deciding which restaurant is not deciding whether to take her out for a good time. You would think she would know which restaurant–metaphor for all of the unimportant he’s supposed to be deciding on to prove he’s a MAN–would be the best for having a good time. If he decides, it might not be that place. She loses.
    So, to literally follow your point, watching the guy decide is the “good time”. Not the actual restaurant. And, in fact, Susan and others have hinted that might actually be at least partly correct.
    Now, since you can’t actually say that, and probably don’t mean it, what is the connection between picking a restaurant and emotional investment? Seems to me that asking “what do you want to do?” would be the most obvious example of investment, being an obvious concern for what the woman wants to do, which one would figure would be the thing she likes most and what’s wrong with that?
    Well, he’d better not.
    So, emotional investment in your view must mean knowing she wants above all else to see the guy decide.
    Right?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Re the Special Forces guy and the restaurant-picking….I read somewhere about a soldier who was being decorated for extreme heroism under fire and who later commented that he was more nervous at the presentation ceremony (award by commanding general, hundreds of people present) than at the action which won him the award.

    I think some–many?–women tend to judge men specifically by their self-confidence *in social situations* rather than their more general self-confidence. For one thing, it is more directly observable.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    For better or worse I try to gather the intel on what she likes long before the decision on restaurant or whatever else needs to be made. This is done as simple conversation with no immediate connection to action being taken. It’s simply finding out about each other.

    But I remember than info so that I can later use it to suggest, “We should go eat at X place,” where X is either a specific place we talked about and I know she likes or it has the kind of food I know she likes and that I also like. Sometimes if it’s a newer acquaintance I’ll add a “How does that sound?” at the end.

    As long as it’s food I like then I usually don’t care where we go and in the past was too “wishy washy” with the old “where do you want to go?” in the moment.

    By finding out where or what she likes long before (long could mean a few days or longer) then it’s easier to be decisive and appear that way while knowing she’ll like it.

    Of course, if there’s something I love then I’ll be more proactive about suggesting that too but I’ll usually still combine that with the pre-op intel about her preferences.

    I guess I’m just a female follower about these things I often don’t care that much about but I’ve learned to make it seem more like I’m leading, which is in itself a class of female following, of doing the restaurant selection in the way women tend to like and not just the “where do you want to go?” question.

    I think a lot of men are similarly adaptable to the female preference in many issues, in essence, herd followers. Perhaps not very dominant or uber-alpha but then I never claimed I was either. I’m more about what works, as long as it’s consistent with my character and likes.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @david foster

    Also, social confidence and skills are important to where a guy will rank in the hierarchy, something that is very important to women.

    To a lot of men that seems superficial since we will often tend to look more at the substance that we think should back up such social confidence.

    I think in the tribal days that the two were highly correlated and highly confident imposters would soon be revealed on the hunt or in battle and would soon lose whatever higher status their initial confidence gave them.

    Women may have depended somewhat more on how the guys treated the hero warrier or hunter once they came back to camp and not always seen the brave or skilled deeds themselves.

    In the modern world there is often no opportunity or need for men to prove their skill and valor in ways that would show substance behind the confident posture so lots of pretentious posers can get away with it and still hit the attraction buttons of women that evolved to value confidence and charisma in a time where the rigors of life enforced a high correlation with substance.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Han Solo
    Civil thing to do is find out what the woman wants. But the point is, the guy has to be seen deciding forcefully–no objections will be considered–to do what he’s been at pains to find out what the woman wants.
    Doesn’t make sense to me, either.
    Then we have the complaint that the guy isn’t forthrightly trying to get the woman to go with him–metaphorically speaking–on what he likes. That’s a real tingler, according to some.

  • Anacaona

    I didn’t say looks are the most important, but they are a major component. Especially in “prime” years. It is what it is, guys want to maximize value from a looks standpoint. Long term viewpoint may very well be a predictor of success, but it will never be the only criteria.
    I found my husband very attractive of course looks are important. But I found other men attractive and didn’t pursued because they were assholes or showed signs of caddinesh. You can just filter out the lack of character and then date an attractive person with good character. Is not that complicated. If she is hot and crazy, next. If he is hot and caddish, next.

    I suspect that permanent attraction was a presumed part of the package. Marriage just locked that in, right?
    That is probably what people that come from broken homes assume it most work. Marriage is not nirvana.

    Is “for richer or poorer, in sickness or health” even part of any civil ceremony anyway? Or do you just sign your name on a marriage document, get it notarized, and move on?
    Don’t know here but back in DR the judge made us swear with our right hand. So probably it is part of it to some extent.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Richard

    It’s like so many things. I believe that most women want men to “just know” what she wants or how she wants it and confidently lead her/them there.

    It could be how he kisses her or in what moment. It could be a whole host of things. But she much rather prefers him to just know and confidently go about doing so.

    I do think that with today’s mix of expectations (e.g. who pays?) it is more difficult for men to just know since there is not just one cultural narrative of how things should proceed.

    1) Men can just say “fuck it” and do things the way they want to, even if they don’t care that much and would be open to doing it some other way if they only knew, and let the chips fall where they may. He most certainly will drive away some women by choosing the wrong thing but at least will come across as confident with the women that like the choice he made.

    2) Or men can try to gather pre-op intel to know what kind of things she likes and thus deliver a more decisive invitation, knowing it’s more likely to be accepted. He can choose the pieces of what she likes that match with things he likes so that he’s not just “confidently” taking her for sushi when he hates sushi.

    3) Or men can flail around with the old “what do you want to do?”

    Option 2 will likely optimize his success with a wider range of women than option 1. But option 2 still needs to have a healthy respect for what he himself likes. And mixing in the occasional outburst of 1) will likely be a good idea, especially if he senses that she likes him and is thus more receptive to some benevolent dominance from him.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    JP “Is “for richer or poorer, in sickness or health” even part of any civil ceremony anyway? Or do you just sign your name on a marriage document, get it notarized, and move on?”

    It was for our courthouse wedding — “to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part.”

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    I had a hell of a time yesterday with a girl that was so indecisive. I suggested something for a 2nd date–taking a pizza to the lake to watch the dragon boat races–and she kept replying with all these questions. I was getting really exasperated. Finally, she said we could just stay in, get delivery, and watch a movie.

    Well, I always like that because it usually means some level of getting physical is going to happen, though not necessarily sex. I didn’t even suggest it though because a lot of women will perceive that as the ploy it often is, to try and get sex.

    So I went over to her place, we had pizza, watched Napoleon Dynamite, laughed our asses off, cuddled and then made out after. No sex.

    Just an example of how my confident plan that involved things I know she likes to do wasn’t what she wanted in that moment. She wasn’t looking for sex but she did want to stay in and cuddle and have some physical contact.

    I don’t think it would have gone over well if I’d been less flexible and more dominant about what we were going to do.

    I often do shake my head though because if I like a girl then I don’t give a fuck about what we do, within reason. I just want to spend time together. But women like men to have a plan, unless it’s not the plan they want.

  • Fish

    @Ana
    I think we are saying the same thing at this point. My point about looks was that it is one side of the coin of RMV. There are associated values, interests etc which are another part. Unless its purely for sex, filtering purely based on looks is a horrible strategy (even then its probably not a good idea). I’m all on board for filtering, I’m just honest in that I generally filter for looks first.

    Re: Confidence
    Personally, it is not a big deal for me if a woman is more of a confident type or more introverted if she can hold a conversation. Usually in dating I am one of “flexible leadership” where I will make plans but I am open to changes or adjustments. I think a lot of confidence is in the approach or first few conversations and how you hold yourself, it is to a large degree a facade.

    I had never really thought about my preferred female qualities besides attractiveness. I prefer outgoing women, unrestricted (mostly for time/emotional investment, ya’ll restricted women are too much work :-P), intelligent, fun, open-minded, unselfish, caring types who will love my kitties (my fur children come first).

  • Richard Aubrey

    Han Solo
    Couple of things: When I was dating in the mid-Sixties, the guy was expected to put the whole thing together. You didn’t need confidence or dominance or anything else. It was one of the boxes you checked on setting things up. So it happened. But, since it was in the syllabus, the woman probably wasn’t as likely to give points for it.
    Pre-op intel is good. No sense in eating live bait when cheeseburgers are widely available.
    It strikes me as mordantly funny that a woman is expected to give points for a guy telling her she’s going to do what she wants to do and she’s going to by God like it. Because he said so. I can see points for consideration, but we’re talking about dominance points. What a hoot.
    I have two possibilities: One is that a substantial number of women are like that. That would be…disappointing.
    The other is that a substantial number of people say a substantial number of women are like that, knowing it’s not true.
    I like #1. I think I was too dumb back in the day to even do #2, although the number of things we had available in college in terms of not everybody having cars, or discretionary income beyond a burger someplace or a kegger meant there weren’t a lot of choices for women to wish we’d chosen.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Re: picking restaurants. I personally don’t care. I just don’t like the pressure on me to pick a restaurant for a group of people.

    When I say confidence I don’t mean in picking restaurants. I mean in life. It’s linked to competence. So for example, he’s confident at driving, because he’s competent at driving. Confidence without competence is arrogance, and that’s a turn-off for me.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Richard

    Doing the “fuck it” option 1 does imply that a man is both confident and has options with women, and that will likely be perceived as attractive.

    But, there are quite a few overly-sensitive feminist types out there that will hold it against a man if he’s too decisive.

    So, it really is kind of messed up and there’s a lot of variation from woman to woman, as I think there is in many other areas too.

    The lack of cultural script does make it difficult and I don’t deny that I envy some of the simplicity of the 60′s scenario you describe of going to grab a burger or a drink and the man was expected to set it up.

  • Fish

    @Hansolo

    Next date she puts out or GTFO!! I’m kidding lol my particular strategy with date planning is to try to discuss a lot of interests on the first date so I can get a feel for the kinds of things they like. Then I will be able to make a model in my head of the “types” of things to propose. I am usually pretty good at predicting the types of things a girl will be interested in, so if i suggest something (like the boat race) that she’s into but not feeling like that particular time, she’ll let me know.

    For the record, I hate the first 2 dates usually. If it is someone I perceive as high value, you can think things are going awesome and no 2nd date. Second date, same thing for third date. I think by the third date I can relax because there is more investment on their end, just something in my experience. I don’t ALWAYS have the 3 date rule. That is usually just with women who are “replacement level”.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Fish

    It was interesting because as we started to kiss she was all like “you’re being so bad and just on our 2nd get together” but coyly smiling all the while. And then she said, “We’re kind of going fast on our 2nd get together…I hope it’s not our last.” I replied that I hoped it wasn’t our last. Then she sassily said, “We’ll see if it’s your last time with me or not,” suddenly turning the tables from wondering if I was just a fly-by-night charlatan to her being the decider. She asked, “so is this how you do it with all the girls you go out with?” referring to watching a movie while cuddling and then make out after. I replied, “No, just the cool ones who like Napoleon Dynamite.”

    Overall, it was quite good and since I like her personality a lot in person and am physically attracted then it’s good. I can’t stand her indecisiveness over texts though. lol

  • Hope

    Richard Aubrey, do you have any gray area thinking? Either he must be completely confident and inflexible, or he must be a total wuss? I think you’re taking what the women are saying a bit too far.

    In fact with women, most of the time it’s about the attitude, tone of voice and conveying of emotions. A man can confidently tell the woman to make up her mind about where she wants to go, from a strong frame on his end. It’s never black and white.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Han Solo
    Back in the day, although possibly these days as well, option 1 was what the oblivious did. So you got a guy who was confident and didn’t give a fuck, and you got a guy who didn’t have a clue.
    Most of the women I dated more than twice I’d met while doing other things. Work, projects, lab classes, clubs. So we’d been able to assess each other which is different from getting to know each other, although we did the latter, too.
    So perhaps the confidence/competence I’d shown in the other activity was sufficient to make up for any deficit in understanding just what part of that I was supposed to fake.

  • Hope

    For the record, my husband has asked me “where do you want to go?” and “what do you want to eat?” many times. I have never lost attraction for him over that. I don’t want a tyrant nor a doormat for a husband. I have my goldilocks man who understands more than even 50 shades of gray. :p

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Han Solo…I’d also argue that there is a feedback loop among status, self-confidence, and society’s incentive structure.

    For example, the WWII equivalent of the Special Forces guy would likely have been recognized for heroism by his hometown paper, resulting in a temporary minor celebrity and possibly a significant boost in his social self-confidence. And even if he remained humble and self-effacing, it seems much less likely that he would have been ditched by his girlfriend for “lack of self-confidence” than today.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Hope:

    Richard Aubrey, do you have any gray area thinking? Either he must be completely confident and inflexible, or he must be a total wuss? I think you’re taking what the women are saying a bit too far.

    No joke. I feel like I have to explain why 2 twizzlers + 2 twizzlers = 4 twizzlers with this crowd, lol. So tedious.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @david

    Good point. And look at how that changed with the treatment some Nam veterans got.

  • SayWhaat

    And look at how that changed with the treatment some Nam veterans got.

    They fought in a war that divided the country from the start.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Fish
    I would be hesitant before claiming that the days of chaperoned dates will never return. The War of the Roses was yesterday and it’s too soon to tell whether the French Revolution was good or not.

    @SayWhattt

    You must have a limited social circle.

    It is distinctly possible. It is also possible that the majority of young people were jockeying for social status and were forced to delude themselves about the value of their peers in order to relieve their cognitive dissonance ;)
    In colloquial terms:
    ADBG has no hamster

  • SayWhaat

    Everyone has a hamster.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Yeah, but a multi-page dissertation is a bit much for most hamsters so I distilled it down to a single line :P

  • SayWhaat

    Pithy. ;)

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    Yeah, but no need to disrespect the soldiers. Go after Lindon Johnson that took the country there, not the guys that got drafted and did their duty.

  • Richard Aubrey

    SayWhaat:
    Plenty of room for gray areas. Problem is, invisible to the players or at least one of them, is The Line hidden in the fog of the gray area.
    However, this whole thing wasn’t my idea. I started reading relationship blogs and other sites a few years ago hoping that any of that sort of thing I put into my anticipated–by me–fiction wouldn’t be hopelessly dated.
    I was astonished, not to say horrified, at the concept. When even Hannah Rosin, who had a book on the end of men, agreed that the loser–by definition on account of he’s a guy–had better man up regarding the restaurant or be viewed with contempt, I was convinced.
    If you think the whole thing is a bad idea, I’m with you.
    Now, I have no more interest in, or in being, the kind of guy who can’t make up his mind, can’t come to a decision, is forever deferring to others than I suppose a woman would.
    My problem is when a guy who can obviously Take Care of Business gets dinged for insufficient forthrightness regarding the restaurant–metaphor for all things unimportant on which he’s supposed to be The Boss or else–when, among other things he is completely and utterly indifferent to the choice of restaurant presuming the health department hasn’t visited in hazmat suits.
    And after he gets through manning up on the restaurant–metaphor–thingy, he’s going to get scalped for having input on things which are really important. Male privilege and all that.
    In retrospect, I like Han Solo’s Option 1. Don’t care. Women will either be attracted or not, will accept the premise or not. If not, don’t care. Saves a lot of aggravation.

  • Richard Aubrey

    The Viet Nam war didn’t divide the country, any more than the Korean War did. Same thing.
    Difference was the Left had gotten itself organized and the Left divided the country.

  • Jayn Rand

    J July 7, 2013 at 10:21 am
    Some women, like that “homesteader” Sunshine Mary, are irrevocably damaged.

    But she forgaaaaaaaaaaaaave him, so it’s all okaaaaaayyyyy now.
    ____________

    She forgave him but its not all ok now. She expressed how when he stopped cheating she lost some attraction for him. Like attracts like. Basically they are two very damaged people who where attracted by each others damage.

    @ Fish,

    “Re: Confidence
    Personally, it is not a big deal for me if a woman is more of a confident type or more introverted if she can hold a conversation. ”

    - Here confidence is pitted against introversion. Are they mutually exclusive?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Just saw this on reddit:

    Not sure if this is entirely true, but they say that in terms of IQ: I > E, N > S, T > F
    they list that in order, the types are more likely to have an IQ in the top 2% of the population:
    1. INTP 2. INTJ 3. INFJ 4. INFP

    INFJ – Incredibly ‘big picture’ people I think they are the smartest when it comes to philosphy in life. I said that the INTJ’s were best at ‘knowing the world’ but by that I mean the logical, factual world. INFJ’s are best at knowing the emotional and spiritual world. However if asked to solve a problem their emotion may cloud their speed.

  • Jayn Rand

    Richard Aubrey, your examples of soldiers and jumping from planes doesn’t necessarily translate into social confidence or confidence in intimate male-female relationships.

    If someone is trained well in a skill and has proven effective in that skill, they will have confidence in their abilities to perform that skill. That doesn’t mean they will have confidence interacting with the opposite sex in a social or romantic setting.

  • Jayn Rand

    @ Hope,
    “INFJ – Incredibly ‘big picture’ people I think they are the smartest when it comes to philosphy in life.”

    - Yes. Philosophy is all about the big picture and how smaller components fit into a larger whole.

    I said this in reply to JP over on the other thread;

    JP: “What Escoffier is apparently calling “philosophy” is the dominance of left brain thinking.”

    Me: “Philosophy is not dominant left brain thinking. The right brain is responsible for a wholistic thinking, that is thinking in term of wholes, not parts.

    A “left brain philosophy” if there ever was, is or will be one – was, is or will be one that contains components separate from a whole, with no connecting thread of ideas through the separated parts.”

  • Gin Martini

    J: “How high is his total N? What does it say about his character that he hopped from woman to woman like that? What does it say about her character that she found that attractive? And why does she insisted on projecting that dysfunction on the rest of us? When she says that women like these high N guys, I wish she’d limit that observation to herself and others like her. I personally am disgusted.”

    How do you know your own husband doesn’t have a high N? Haven’t you argued before that the N talk is taboo, and previous partners are “don’t ask don’t tell?”

    It seems perplexing to say high-N men are bad, while at the same time N shouldn’t count. I must be missing something.

    I agree with you that N should be discussed, but I’m not sure how it can be discussed and not discussed at the same time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Gin Martini “I agree with you that N should be discussed, but I’m not sure how it can be discussed and not discussed at the same time.”

    High N people are slippery fishes when it comes to their N. Most of them probably really don’t know their exact N anyway. Forget one, remember another, oh there was also that time… it’s probably like asking them to remember all the different restaurants they’ve eaten at.

    My husband and I discussed every single person we had ever been with physically in any capacity, including kissed, with each other, because we’re weirdos. And because the number is in single digit so we can remember.

  • Jayn Rand

    ” the SMV10 bombshell girl who says matter-of-factly to her BF, “I can’t wear that red Zac Posen dress to the party—it will create a scene. The married men will ignore their wives and stare at my breasts all night, the wives will hate me and complain, and the single guys will be total pigs. You may end up having to hurt someone.”

    Susan, “I call that NPD. No doubt some men find that sexy.”

    - Is that what men call “confidence”? Yikes!

  • Gin Martini

    Hope, SGG and I just was as weird – since we did the same.

    Still, a high-N person should be able to ballpark it. My n=40 buddy says “uh, around 40, I think” which is different than 4 or 400 or MYOB. My point was that a DADT policy means you can’t judge negatively or positively, unless you rely on reputation or third-party accounts, which are notoriously unreliable.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn.
    Right, as regards social confidence. But to presume from that that the guy’s a wimp is nonsense.
    Besides, the guy you describe is far more likely to be “indifferent” to a lot of things, such as restaurant–metaphor–and will have to be told to pretend to want to take charge.
    As I said earlier, my first jump in jump school was in no way as scary as a couple of first dates. But I’d been trained to jump, which I suppose is the difference. There were professionals interested in making sure I got it right.
    But being competent in the real world does not mean additional difficulties socially. I suspect competence in one is associated with competence in the other. I except Aspergers folks.
    The issue is confidence and decisiveness in unimportant things as proxies for masculine wonderfulness.
    Stupid.
    Back in the day, in a field project in a really bad area, women in the project were perfectly willing to do anything I said regarding potential difficulties. I expect I was pretty deferential to the women otherwise, since that’s the way we were taught. Nevertheless, in retrospect, I got–misssed bigtime–a number of IOI. So when the situation is real, the restaurant thing–metaphor–is not an issue.
    The shy, tongue-tied in the presence of the schoolmarm cowboy is a stock figure in western fiction despite the guy’s capacity to ride, rope, shoot, fight Indians and bandits. Might have some connection with reality.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, I like your breakdown re: the options. You take a very sophisticated approach with your subtle intelligence-gathering; I am more of the brute force “option 1″ enthusiast.

    Susan, re: NPD. It’s true. Women who have that kind of physical confidence in their looks—*if it is justified by SMV*—can be devastatingly attractive and hot in bed (they are turned on by the thoughts and images of themselves having sex, so they like to do it in front of mirrors, on camera, etc.), yet also simultaneously be nightmares to date and perversely competitive with their own daughters.

    I know that men in the ‘Sphere sometimes talk about “Alpha Widows”; there is an equivalent male affliction in which a guy may be permanently enchanted by a narcissistic uber-hottie who gives the most unreal sex, yet can also be like trying to date a rabid wolverine on bath salts.

    Richard: I think a problem with the “choose the restaurant” game is that the guy who is the most decisive in that scenario may be the one who is the most precious about restaurants, and the guy who can climb K2, dive the Andrea Doria, perform dazzling martial arts-spiced asskicks, etc. may just be calibrated to genuinely important, life-or-death decisions and emergencies, and find restaurant debates to be rather trivial, if not asinine.

    This type of guy can have problems relating to others unless he learns to hide his true feelings beneath a kind of semi-patronizing mask. I think that I mentioned my friend SBS Darryl a long time ago—SBS Darryl has a doctorate in physics from an elite college of an elite and ancient British university, served in one of the most elite special warfare units in the world (the SBS), is a really accomplished arctic explorer and climber, makes great coin doing global risk consulting, has the Defender 110 and the vintage Norton Commando motorcycle, etc.

    I did a civilian “mountain leader” survival training trip with Darryl about ten years ago and we spent a rather dangerous night caught in freezing rain up above the tree line. The next day we made it back and Darryl phoned his GF, who started crying during their conversation because she had received a speeding ticket that day. The way he calmed her down reminded me of how parents deal with hysterical infants—I thought that he was going to promise her a balloon party with pony rides next. It seemed so condescending, but it worked. He ended up not being able to talk to her about his night of hypothermia, but that was fine with him.

    I was really impressed with his chameleon-like social acumen, but he later told me that, over time, doing this took its toll on him psychologically because he ended up feeling a combination of contempt and mild depression. I think he’s with a female climber and independent sailor now and they get along famously, because neither of them even pretends to give a damn about the minor stuff.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Bastiat. WRT the guy who is so “precious” about restaurants. I agree. But he would begin to qualify as a metrosexual and I didn’t want to go there.
    Besides, the issue is a normal guy, more or less, who has to be “take charge” in matters of little import.
    As I say, it wasn’t my idea and if I’d been consulted, things would be different. But, as Dogsquat used to say, more or less, this is the way it is, like it or not, and you’re a damned fool not to take it into account.

    I once went to a party with a woman who had what was euphemistically known as a “splendid figure”. She had apparently borrowed her skinny niece’s sweater. My guess is the rest of the guys got a lot of attention from their dates, one way or another. So it need not be a universal catastrophe.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    I LMAO’d at this:

    Women who have that kind of physical confidence in their looks—*if it is justified by SMV*—can be devastatingly attractive and … perversely competitive with their own daughters.

    Interesting story about the man on the mountain and the promises (nearly) of pony rides.

    I think the ideal would be to improve one’s value to have enough options to feel like saying “fuck it” or to really just be at peace with the options one has with the “fuck it” mentality.

    I fully admit that my options are not such at the moment where I’m willing to sacrifice the rejections that would come by not playing the game to some extent. However, everyone has a line and this girl was pushing it a few days ago just on deciding whether we’d meet up and I told her she was exasperating and to just decide. She decided yes.

  • Jayn Rand

    Richard, sorry, I’m not buying it that women will “next” a man who doesn’t dictate restaurant options.

  • JP

    “Richard: I think a problem with the “choose the restaurant” game is that the guy who is the most decisive in that scenario may be the one who is the most precious about restaurants, and the guy who can climb K2, dive the Andrea Doria, perform dazzling martial arts-spiced asskicks, etc. may just be calibrated to genuinely important, life-or-death decisions and emergencies, and find restaurant debates to be rather trivial, if not asinine.”

    Because he’s seeking out the life or death emergencies.

    Constantly seeing out life or death emergencies is going to impact your ability to function in the actual real world of human commerce because you aren’t going to get an adrenalin rush.

    In your example, an individual put themselves in a position where he got hypothermia for fun.

    “I was really impressed with his chameleon-like social acumen, but he later told me that, over time, doing this took its toll on him psychologically because he ended up feeling a combination of contempt and mild depression.”

    Gee, I wonder why.

  • Fish

    @Rand
    “Here confidence is pitted against introversion. Are they mutually exclusive”
    It has been my experience that the women who have expressed confidence have been extroverted. It could be a matter that introverted women can BE confident but not adequately express it. I think like Susan alluded to, confidence is a spectrum where on one hand you have basically a child and on the other hand you have uber-narcisist craziness. I think extroverts would tend more towards the narcicism side of the scale. . .

    @Hope
    “High N people are slippery fishes when it comes to their N.”
    Where you making a pun here? :-P

    I choose not to discuss it. Only a handful of people know my range (I can’t even give an exact number because I’m hazy about certain periods). Ironically most that do are not ones I’ve slept with. I prefer not to discuss it, I would if someone was “LTR worthy” and it mattered to them.

  • Fish

    @Hope
    “My husband and I discussed every single person we had ever been with physically in any capacity, including kissed, with each other, because we’re weirdos. And because the number is in single digit so we can remember.”

    i would have to assume that’s abnormal and impractical for anyone who didn’t have an EXTREMELY low N AND didn’t meet comparatively young. I maybe could have done that at 20, no way in hell now. You were right about ballpark, i made a list one time (well, I tried, just for PiV or anal sex, I left off only oral either giving or receiving) and figured the list could be up to 10 higher. Trying to remember girls I kissed in high school is next to impossible. . .

  • Fish

    My memory is also suspect because I had 6 concussions from the age of 17-20 so a lot of things prior to college are really fuzzy for me. It also could be that being 33, even my high school graduation was 15 years ago. It could also be that I just don’t attach importance to even sexual partners so my brain doesn’t remember it (but I can recall important ex gf birthdays, which is weird to me).

  • Gin Martini

    Fish: “i would have to assume that’s abnormal and impractical for anyone who didn’t have an EXTREMELY low N AND didn’t meet comparatively young. I maybe could have done that at 20, no way in hell now.”

    Median N is 6 for men. Your definition of “extremely low” is… somewhat personalized. :)

    When I say that my N is low, I am being facetious.

  • J

    How do you know your own husband doesn’t have a high N? Haven’t you argued before that the N talk is taboo, and previous partners are “don’t ask don’t tell?”

    Not exactly taboo, though I do believe people are better off not knowing the gory details.

    I have said that neither of us has every asked for an N. However, we have shared enough stories of past hurts, etc. to have a fairly good understanding of each other’s experiences and timelines. While I don’t have an exact number for him, I know there was a pattern, beginning in high school, of LTRs that lasted about 4-5 years a piece. I assume that there were a few ONS or STRs in there for him, but I know his attitudes well enough to know that they do not constitute a pattern of caddishness. I would estimate his N as lowish. I knew enough to come to the conclusion that I was dealing with a “dad, not cad type” of guy. Had I known of a N of 30+, I’d have run for the hills because that N would have indicated a sort of character–inability to be faithful, need for variety, etc.– that I did not want to deal with. Also the possibility of picking up a disease from a high N guy is just gross to me.

    It seems perplexing to say high-N men are bad, while at the same time N shouldn’t count. I must be missing something.

    I think you are missing something. My position had never been “man up and marry those sluts.” I do not believe that people for whom N>1 are necessarily bad mates who willing never bond properly, but I also believe character counts. It’s the quality, not just the quantity of relationships that needs to be considered, though I find it hard to believe that a person can have 200 quality love relationships. Any more clear?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn

    “”Richard, sorry, I’m not buying it that women will “next” a man who doesn’t dictate restaurant options.””

    I would prefer not to buy it, either. But if you don’t like it, take it up with all the folks, on this blog and elsewhere, who claim that’s how it goes. Maybe they’re wrong.

    Also, see Ted from some time back and the assumption of the red pill.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But if you don’t like it, take it up with all the folks, on this blog and elsewhere, who claim that’s how it goes. Maybe they’re wrong.

      Many of the women on this blog have suggested that they’d be put off if their partner was constantly announcing dinner plans without consulting them. I know I would. Most of us here have rather egalitarian relationships.

      That doesn’t mean a man’s leading isn’t desirable or important. I just happen to think that dictating restaurants is a silly example.

  • Jayn Rand

    “I would prefer not to buy it, either. But if you don’t like it, take it up with all the folks, on this blog and elsewhere, who claim that’s how it goes. Maybe they’re wrong.”

    Could be. I mean, is any female here claiming she nexted a guy because he didn’t dictate restaurant options? Is any male claiming he was nexted for not doing the same?

    “Also, see Ted from some time back and the assumption of the red pill.”

    Ted D? I saw him commenting over at another blog, why doesn’t he comment here anymore?

    Anyway, I recall reading Ted say he was a bit of a push-over in his youth and push-overs get targeted by manipulative people looking for suckers to push over all the time. This has nothing to do with a pill of any color nor with dictating restaurant options.

  • Fish

    @GM
    “Median N is 6 for men. Your definition of “extremely low” is… somewhat personalized. :)”

    My understanding is that N only includes PiV sex. If you are including any other type of activity, I am sure that number would go up appreciably. Lets say the median is 20 (I’m probably low-balling here). That is still an impractical number of people to discuss having ever kissed for the “average” person.

    Heck, I can’t even remember names for half the people I’ve been with. My list has entries like “chick from the bar in Athens”.

  • J

    Re men taking control in restaurants, on dates, etc.

    This is a real double-edged sword. DHV’ing can easily turn into obnoxiousness.

    Most women would enjoy, I think, being introduced to a new pleasure by a man “in the know.” One thing that I love about DH is that he has a broad range of interests and being with him has expanded my horizons. It’s been fun! OTOH, he has never bullied me into enjoying his interests. I have dated men who were probably just trying to impress, but who tried too hard and would not take no for an answer. If a women doesn’t know you well enough to feel comfortable drinking alcohol with you, don’t spring an expensive bottle of wine on her and then be hurt that she’s not drinking. Don’t insist on proving what a gourmet you are by ordering clams for a woman who doesn’t like shellfish. Recommend a dish or a wine, but don’t order for a woman without permission. It’s creepy.

  • Gin Martini

    Yes, makes perfect sense to me.

    Earlier you seemed to indicate that an angry “MYOB” was the only correct response you’d ever give, so perhaps I misread that. Any actual discussion on your past counts, even if specific numbers aren’t discussed. Getting a rough N indirectly is pretty close to asking point-blank, for the purposes of assessing character and relationship compatibility.

    On the other hand, only getting an implied N, does allow for some conveniently-omitted situations. :) It does allow for a some degree of wishful thinking, either for ourselves, or for our partner. Maybe that’s a good thing.

    So, while you’re not DADT, you also don’t believe in straight-up mutual disclosure. “Implied N” is best?

  • Gin Martini

    Fish, thats girl-thinking. Median N per CDC, including oral and anal, is still 6. You’re just a bit too successful!

  • Jayn Rand

    “My understanding is that N only includes PiV sex.”

    ” Median N per CDC, including oral and anal, is still 6.”

    My god, you people really have no concept of humanity. No bigger picture narrative, no “whole”. No wonder you are like machines and can only functions in parts, including body parts.

  • Anacaona

    Fish, thats girl-thinking. Median N per CDC, including oral and anal, is still 6. You’re just a bit too successful!
    I was about to point that out.
    Fish I know the names and I had meet half my husband’s exes, he hasn’t asked me but he knows that I have a low tolerance for assholes and I was surrounded by them in top of that being a virgin he was more worried that my lack of experience will ruin the relationship than the other way around. You belong to the minority that has double digits and has so many sexual encounters that can’t remember them all.

  • Atlas Fugged

    For someone who is so awesome at seeing the whole, you missed the entire point of the conversation… which was that “typical” people don’t have that many partners, regardless of how you define it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OTC/GM, I see you’re an Ayn Rand fan. Interesting.

      You do know that you’ve stooped to PJ’s level with all the different handles, right? Most of us consider that habit a symptom of her issues.

  • J

    Earlier you seemed to indicate that an angry “MYOB” was the only correct response you’d ever give, so perhaps I misread that.

    To an interrogation, perhaps, but I find that people want to talk about past relationships in a non-judgmental way. Neither DH or I ever asked for a N, but certainly the questions “Have you ever been married?” and “Did you ever get close?” came up. We learned a lot about each others’ failed relationships in that way.

    Any actual discussion on your past counts, even if specific numbers aren’t discussed.

    OK

    Getting a rough N indirectly is pretty close to asking point-blank, for the purposes of assessing character and relationship compatibility.

    Actually, there wasn’t that much point-blank questioning. We did get to know each others’ friends and family though, so people did allude to other relationships. My MIL had old pix of DH and assorted exes. We also ran into old flames when we were together, so a lot came out in a casual way.

    On the other hand, only getting an implied N, does allow for some conveniently-omitted situations. It does allow for a some degree of wishful thinking, either for ourselves, or for our partner. Maybe that’s a good thing.

    The existence of past partners wasn’t that big an issue. We weren’t kids. An absence of previous relationships would have raised far more red flags.

    So, while you’re not DADT, you also don’t believe in straight-up mutual disclosure. “Implied N” is best?

    Not exactly. If I’d have been asked point-blank for details, I’m sure I would have answered truthfully–but I have to say that the need for gory details and apologies that some of the more obviously obsessive men of the ‘sphere have would have been a dealbreaker. There are also a few women who feel the need to constantly atone for things they did as unstable, abused or neglected teens. I have a hard time understanding the need to air that for the entire ‘sphere to comment on and to constantly relive. I find all that unhealthy. At some point, you have to forgive yourself or go shrill and crazy.

    In the last few years, I’ve seen a few women my age become widows. One woke up to corpse on morning. They weere both a few years younger than me. Scary…..

    I sometimes wonder what it must be like to date again at this age. When I read some of the demands for info that men on the net make, I wonder if these widows encounter these questions and how they handle them. I know that after a quarter of a century of faithful marriage, I would resent being interrogated about my love life previous to my marriage. I feel pretty sure I’d walk on that sort of date if for no other reason than it really is nobody’s business what someone did 30 or more years ago. If I were dating again, I’d ask, “Ever cheat on your late or ex-wife?” long before I’d worry about a drunken ONS in college. After a while, this stuff really isn’t relevant to character.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If I were dating again, I’d ask, “Ever cheat on your late or ex-wife?” long before I’d worry about a drunken ONS in college. After a while, this stuff really isn’t relevant to character.

      +1

      And I also agree that being grilled on behavior from 1983 would be a dealbreaker for me. Which is fine – it would be an indication of incompatibility wrt sociosexuality. That’s a feature, not a bug. The guy who wants that info. is looking for a woman who wants to be asked that question so that she can answer it!

  • Jayn Rand

    Atlas Fugged July 7, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    For someone who is so awesome at seeing the whole, you missed the entire point of the conversation… which was that “typical” people don’t have that many partners, regardless of how you define it.
    ____

    Dear Imitation Is A Form Of Flattery,

    Namaste!

    I was speaking about quality, not quantity. No wonder your “civilization” came up with the heartless “cry it out method”. You don’t even see other adults, nor even yourselves, as sentient beings. Babies must be like bundles of wires to you guys.

    OM

  • Gin Martini

    A one-way interrogation, of course, would be demeaning. As would bringing it up before things got very serious. I believe mutual disclosure is healthy, and actually desired in a good relationship as it progresses. If the realtionship doesn’t progress there – well, then no need.

    J: “I feel pretty sure I’d walk on that sort of date if for no other reason than it really is nobody’s business what someone did 30 or more years ago.
    If I were dating again, I’d ask, “Ever cheat on your late or ex-wife?””

    What if he cheated on each of his 25 girlfriends before his ex-wife?

  • Jayn Rand

    “I feel pretty sure I’d walk on that sort of date if for no other reason than it really is nobody’s business what someone did 30 or more years ago.
    If I were dating again, I’d ask, “Ever cheat on your late or ex-wife?”

    What if he cheated on each of his 25 girlfriends before his ex-wife?”

    Divorcees have no business dating, particularly if they are single parents.
    I mean it now! I consider it child neglect at best, and abuse more often than not. (Statistics back me up).

    Middle aged and old people “dating” are a laughing stock.

  • Abbot

    “My list has entries like “chick from the bar in Athens”

    or “some chumps future wife”

    .

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    JP: Yes, the SBS Darryl type is seeking out these situations in order to try to evoke the psychological meta-state that Tony Hiss has phrased as “Deep Travel.” I think that at a certain point a warm blanket, comfortable bed, and cup of soup can seem like all the comforts one needs, and so much other stuff just seems like hamsterwheeling-BS. There is a clarity that comes from adventure, austerity, etc., but with this clarity may come an increasing disassociation from “normal” culture.

    The vibrant, high-bandwidth POV of the dopamine freak doesn’t last forever, but while it is there it can feel like “waking up again when you thought you were already awake.” I personally think the ideal lifeway (for me—I know this is subjective) is a kind of binary strategy that imposes spartan discipline for five days a week and then sybaritic hedonism for the other two. The contrast effect and anticipation are what give the luxury and sex their sweet taste.

  • Jayn Rand

    “I personally think the ideal lifeway (for me—I know this is subjective) is a kind of binary strategy that imposes spartan discipline for five days a week and then sybaritic hedonism for the other two. The contrast effect and anticipation are what give the luxury and sex their sweet taste.”

    This is extreme imbalance and betrays a obsession/compulsive disorder.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn.
    I see you missed all the times I said “metaphor” and expanded versions thereof when referring to the restaurant. Since they were in the same type face as the rest of my post, I’ll presume y0u saw them and preferred to pretend I was speaking exclusively of a place to eat.
    End of discussion.

  • Jayn Rand

    “End of discussion.”

    LOL! Nice try, doc. The discussion “ends” when I close my lap top, not before ;)

    Even as a metaphor for something else, I still don’t buy that women want their men calling all the shots, which is what you seem to be implying.

    Dominance can hit the road Jack, and never come back again!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    As counter-intuitive as it may sound, the imbalance is actually the whole point; the dopamine-mediated SEEKING system is aroused by *anticipation* of rewards. In my opinion, one has to create a reward system that works for oneself over the long term. The big mistake is working against the brain’s emotional command systems rather than designing a lifestyle for yourself that works in accordance with them.

    Mine is a classic implementation of a “barbell strategy” which mixes extreme positions to take advantage of contrast, anticipation, and focused work vs. reward schedules. I achieve more and am happier and more serene when I have this set up; when I try to achieve intraday “balance” I feel sort of blah. I seem wired for more of a net weekly balance.

    I understand and respect that you and others may be different; I am not selling anything or pretending to have special insights to save humanity or whatever, and I think I am generally quite tolerant of other approaches. Life is hard enough for most people and they usually need encouragement rather than name calling, messianic complexes, judgment, pop-psychotherapy, etc.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Life is hard enough for most people and they usually need encouragement rather than name calling, messianic complexes, judgment, pop-psychotherapy, etc.”

    I agree but I’m not name calling, messianic complexing, judging or pop-psychotheraping.

    I feel compassion for messed folks who were raised like this because some “doctor” said so;

    “I was going to say the cry it out method isn’t easy. I want to tend to him so bad but I don’t want him to think ill do it every time.”

    The above comment was from a youtube video discussing The Ferber Method or Cry It Out.

    Your “doctors” and “experts” recommend for your parents to ignore their natural instincts to responds to their infants’ cries with love and care, something all mammals do.

    Babies have only their cries to communicate with until they can talk. So a generation, or multiple generations, of babies who imbibed that their cries for love and care would go unheard comprises the “culture”.

    Think about that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PJ

      The above comment was from a youtube video discussing The Ferber Method or Cry It Out.

      Your “doctors” and “experts” recommend for your parents to ignore their natural instincts to responds to their infants’ cries with love and care, something all mammals do.

      As someone whose life was restored to order by the Ferber method (Ferber is/was at Children’s Hospital in Boston), I’ll bite.

      We were so good at tending to our infant son’s cries that he began to strongly prefer having our attention 100% of the time. Not only did he want to sleep in our bed at all times, he wanted to remain awake and interact. As months passed, this got worse and worse. We would do whatever we could to get him to fall asleep, then transfer him to his crib without waking him up. It never worked – the minute he detected movement or activity, he was wide awake and demanding attention. When he was 9 months old, we actually experienced 2 consecutive sleepless nights. The third day, I called my pediatrician and sobbed that I was desperate. He taught us about Ferber. It took three nights total, after which our child slept normal hours without fussing and we returned to some semblance of sanity.

      Refrain from commenting on topics you know nothing about.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    PJ: I apologize if I came across as defensive. I was not familiar with this Ferber Method stuff; I agree with you that it sounds rather brutal.

  • J

    What if he cheated on each of his 25 girlfriends before his ex-wife?

    That seems unlikely to me, but let’s say he cheated on one and learned and learned how destructive that is. I wouldn’t be too concerned about 30 year old failure win a relationship that wasn’t fully committed anyway. I would exercise extreme caution in dealing with a man who had cheated on his wife though. And vice versa.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What if he cheated on each of his 25 girlfriends before his ex-wife?

      That seems unlikely to me, but let’s say he cheated on one and learned and learned how destructive that is.

      Unlikely indeed. I’d stake my life on my husband’s history of loyalty and honesty, and would have done so after knowing him a year. Only true sociopaths have secret pasts that are incongruent with their behavior, e.g. Clark Rockefeller. If you can’t sniff that out, you deserve what you get.

  • J

    My pediatrician advocated Ferber to me and I told him my parenting style wasn’t a medical issue and therefore not his business. IMO, the Ferber method endangers the trust between parent and child. It also goes against healthy maternal instinct. When my kids wouldn’t sleep, I just started bedtime a few minutes earlier each night. We eventually established a reasonable routine.

  • Jayn Rand

    “My pediatrician advocated Ferber to me and I told him my parenting style wasn’t a medical issue and therefore not his business. IMO, the Ferber method endangers the trust between parent and child. It also goes against healthy maternal instinct. ”

    - Not only that, the cortisol levels of babies “trained to sleep” under this method are through the roof! Read this comment below of a girl who said her parents using the method told her they let her cry for 9 hours straight when she was an infant!

    She’s lucky she didn’t go into cardiac arrest! How abusive can you get?

    “My parents did that to me when I was a baby. They tried everything for a while and every 30 minutes I would scream. Eventually, they tried the method because it was recommended to them and I screamed for 9 hours straight. ”

    !!!

    She ends the sad story with , “After that night, my parents said I never cried again.”

    - Yeah because the poor baby learned that her parents would NOT meet her needs.

    Check this out;

    “I´m not a fan of CIO / ferbern at all but i have to say, that we (lately) had nights when our daughter just didn´t wanted to sleep…. at all. (she´s 14 months old) so i put her in my bed right next to me, turned all the lights down and after 30 sec of crying and refusing she always falls asleep in my arms.”

    - Duh. She fell asleep in your arms because it is natural for babies to want to do so. The skin to skin contact and heartbeat of the mother father soothes them and lets them know their needs will be met, they are safe, secure and all is right with the world.

    If adults feel the need to sleep with each other, how can they not expect infants, who are new to this strange, cold world after being in the mothers warm womb for 9 months will not feel the need to bond and sleep next to mom and/or dad?

    These quack “doctors” who recommend this torture, as well as the parents who follow it, should be forced to sleep every night all alone in a dark room with no human contact.

    They are only recommending this so that these poor babies will grow up feeling alienated from their parents and humans, knowing their needs will not be met, and thus have to go on Abilify by the age of 10 and keep Big Pharma’s wheel’s turning.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    BB,

    I must admit that barbell strategy you describe sounds somewhat appealing. Sometimes I have described this to my friends, who describe their “rages” after particularly stressful period. Which sounds suspiciously like this “barbell” life you describe, although, for these people, it generally only occurs when externally imposed, IE finals or a busy time at work.
    Trying to impose this life on themselves is a non-starter.
    Unfortunately, I seem unable to experience this feeling at all. Recently, for instance, work life has been “hectic,” with various closing processes that I have been expected to undertake despite little training, but a simple psychological re-frame made it more of a fun challenge than a stressful event.
    Add on in that my free time has consisted of pursuing a lot of intellectual pursuits, largely reading about foreign and military policy. While this has greatly expanded my understanding of the SS-20, Pershing 2, and the IRBM bans in place that are unstable because China has been diversifying its force, this has more or less consumed large chunks of my life.
    I have found that I am unable to balance the bar-bell, so to speak. Rather, what happens is that I spend so much time on the intellectual/work-end of the bar-bell that everything else falls to the side.
    Stress does not manifest it physically at all. Rather, over the course of some weeks, my brain simply seems to cease functioning. This generally seems to result in some adhedonia in which I am unable to feel much of anything: rather than wanting to “rage,” I feel like a zombie.
    Today I realized I reached this thresh-hold when after attempting to learn about the battle of the Kursk Salient, as it is the 70th Anniversary of that, the largest tank battle in history, and nothing would process. I can vaguely tell you that there was a bulge in the German lines and the Soviets heavily fortified it and had extensive defense in depth, and it was apparently a turning point, but anything else simply refused to sink in.

    Is this a feeling you are familiar with? Or are you bar-bell types processing things differently?

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG
    Ref Kursk. “Russia at War” Alexander Werth. Whole thing. Problem with learning about Kursk is that it’s just another fight–noisier than most, to quote a John Wayne character–except for the context. The armature. The framework.
    If you don’t have the framework, you’re processing endless tank vs. tank, tank vs. antitank, etc. Details are important to the players, naturally, but they fade into each other.
    So about all you learn is pakfronts and….The Tigers are Burning.
    So if you didn’t have the framework, it would all turn to a mush. IOW, not processing.
    In “A War to Be Won”, the authors discuss the warnings the German logistics guys gave their commanders. Lesson: If the loggy guys say it can’t be done, don’t even start. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
    Back off, get the frame. Werth, my brother said decades ago, is the only guy to write about the Eastern Front with the Germans as the bad guys, although he is clear on Katyn.
    At one point, we combined me being laid up with a complimentary month of some kind of documentary channel. Included great tank battles, including Zitadelle. If you’re interested, your cable channel probably has it someplace.

  • Esau

    Hope, disappointingly, at 327: “In fact with women, most of the time it’s about the attitude, tone of voice and conveying of emotions. A man can confidently tell the woman to make up her mind about where she wants to go, from a strong frame on his end. It’s never black and white.”

    * Sigh, sad face *

    Hope, I normally appreciate your writing at HUS as an exemplar of compassion, male-tolerance and a firm base in realty. But this passage is so loopy, and also stunningly misandric, that I’m surprised to see it under your persona (trust PJ is not hijacking your screen name?).

    Taking the last sentence first, accusing Aubrey of black-and-white analysis is a giant exercise in misdirection. Yes, suppose he went back and added all the qualifiers you could ask for, about gradations and variations and NAWALT/NAMALT’s, etc. etc., to your heart’s content; what difference would that make, functionally, to his point? Changing the subject is not a counter-argument, however many wish it were.

    The earlier part of the passage provides a new variation on an old joke:

    “When a man speaks with the right attitude, in the right tone of voice, conveying the right emotions from a strong frame, he can change an artichoke into an avacado!”

    “I tried that, but it didn’t work.”

    “It must be that your attitude was bad! you didn’t use the right tone of voice! you didn’t convey the right emotions! your frame wasn’t strong enough!”

    “Err, how exactly do I do better?”

    “I can’t tell you that; it’s emotions, you just have to get it right. Now go and try again, but harder this time.”

    Do you see the problem? Your prescription is so fuzzy as to be utterly unfalsifiable. Any time a man tries to enact what you describe and fails to achieve the desired effect, you can always just say his attitude was wrong, his tone of voice didn’t get the right emotions across correctly, or that he didn’t have a strong enough frame, or whatever. It’s impossible to prove otherwise, since you don’t even begin to explain in any kind of concrete, definite, unambiguous and interpretable terms the actions that correspond to what you’re describing. You’re effectively just saying that there’s some sort of magic spell, that if he can do it then he wins; but if he can’t, then, tough, it can’t be explained any more clearly than that.

    Yes, some people are magicians and can do it right. But it’s tremendously misandric to blame the remainder for failing to follow an invisible map. By saying “There is a right answer, in this situation, if only you know what it is” you are implicitly/equivalently stating “If you failed in this situation, it’s because you weren’t doing it right”. Failure becomes a closed proof of incompetence; the blame for failure, then, can always be loaded squarely onto the male actor’s shoulders (broad or otherwise).

    Do you see why saying “just use magic!” is inherently misandric? It’s the gynonormativity bell ringing again, which is normally the opposite of what I expect from you here.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Esau, I’m sorry that you see what I have written as misandric. It certainly was not intended as such. It is, however, a very NF statement.

    Perhaps this will help you understand?

    Fe gives INFJs the ability to be really in tune with what others are feeling. According to this article[1] , Fe “plays a prominent role in attuning to and empathizing with others’ emotions. It allows FJs to recreate another’s emotion state within themselves, allowing them to literally feel what the other person is feeling.” This is much more accurate than saying Fe is about sympathy. Fe goes beyond sympathy: not only does Fe recognize and understand an emotion, but Fe experiences that emotion right along with the other person. It’s not just, “I’m imagining/thinking of what that would be like/was for me,” but, “I’m feeling/experiencing what that’s like for you.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Esau, in other words, when you say “you don’t even begin to explain in any kind of concrete, definite, unambiguous and interpretable terms the actions that correspond to what you’re describing” — I literally cannot begin to describe these things in concrete terms. I experience these things. It would be like trying to explain and describe a color to a person who is colorblind to that color. I can only give my interpretation of it.

    So do you see that “it’s inherently misandric” is like telling me that I’m somehow defective for not being able to transcribe the “Feeling” (as in the MBTI term) way of looking at the world to someone who is inherently “Thinking”? More females are F on the MBTI than males. Therein lies a major disconnect.

  • Fish

    @GM
    “Fish, thats girl-thinking. Median N per CDC, including oral and anal, is still 6. You’re just a bit too successful!”

    Lol successful to the point i would be filtered out of studies due to skewing results.

    I am just vehemently against this whole “judging people by N” thing. Not even for myself, I don’t really care if people judge me for high N, it is what it is. I have a really close female friend. She’s gorgeous, smart, caring, she’s a great mom, she’s a really good person. She was married at a young age to a worthless douchebag. She’s been divorced for a while now and just has no luck in dating (she acknowledges a filtering problem). Her N is probably > 10. I would literally kick the ass of anyone who said she wasn’t as good or better a wife candidate than anyone else out there. I don’t care what her N is, she’s an amazing person.

    I understand a majority of the info on here is for people who in some way or another is not successful at relationships. It seems incredibly ironic that a good percentage of the discussion comes from happily married people and high N dudes, precisely the people who would not need the advice in the first place.

  • Anacaona

    It seems incredibly ironic that a good percentage of the discussion comes from happily married people
    I don’t know about the high N but two reasons come to mind. We are happy and want people that seek relationships to find happiness too.
    Trying to show some of the cornerstones or our marriage is a good way to tell them that things can work out. Specially since most of the married folks were not the hot kids they think will make it in the end. There is hope for the average to have a fulfilling romantic life if only they use some strategy.
    And second most of us have children that are going to deal with the SMP sooner or later we are trying to help things so they get an easier time and suffer less than we did. That is at least IMO the other married folk can chime in.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Hope.
    Anybody can tell anybody to make up his or her mind. Question is, then what?
    Your discussion of feeling and attuning does not address the issue. Once felt and attuned, how do you express the requisite response?
    You–metaphor alert dammit–have said that having a radio receiver is sufficient. But the problem is, as you described a man telling a woman to make up her mind, not receiving but broadcasting.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    Esau & Hope

    Take it easy. You’ve just run int sexual dimorphism, mental edition. Vive la difference!

    Esau: While Hope relates well to men and is comfortable with men, she is still a woman. She comes from a different place in the space of human possibilities; she’s wired differently. From her point of view most men are farther along the autism spectrum than she is. That is why you don’t go to a woman for tactical advice. She can tell you what is going on, but not always what to do about it. Her advice may not be in a form you can use.

    Hope: He’s a schauspieler, not a darfsteller.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    I’m here because I have a fourteen year old daughter. I want her to do better than I did. I need to understand her end of things.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    “””But if you don’t like it, take it up with all the folks, on this blog and elsewhere, who claim that’s how it goes. Maybe they’re wrong.””

    Two items: First, see all the “metaphor” qualifiers. Please. To pretend this is only about the place to eat is to overlook, deliberately, the issue. Second, all the comments about men “leading” on this blog and many others.

    To repeat. I didn’t make this stuff up. I found it. Here and elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To repeat. I didn’t make this stuff up. I found it. Here and elsewhere.

      I know. It’s all over the angrysphere, mostly perpetrated by men whose wives are not attracted to them. I’m sorry, but you need to consider the source. I have never pushed that metaphor, I think it’s stupid.

      We all agree that it is not attractive when a man says, “You decide. Whatever you want. I live to serve. Let me do all the housework. We don’t have to have sex if you don’t feel like it.” IOW, stop being a pussy. Honestly, I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

  • JP

    “If I were dating again, I’d ask, “Ever cheat on your late or ex-wife?” long before I’d worry about a drunken ONS in college. After a while, this stuff really isn’t relevant to character.

    +1

    And I also agree that being grilled on behavior from 1983 would be a dealbreaker for me. Which is fine – it would be an indication of incompatibility wrt sociosexuality. That’s a feature, not a bug. The guy who wants that info. is looking for a woman who wants to be asked that question so that she can answer it!”

    Don’t you first have to know that you *have* a feature called sociosexulaity?

    With respect to “character”, you also have the issue of whether drunkenness = bad character, ONS = bad character, and cheating = bad character. So you have three different lines of inquiry here.

  • Gin Martini

    PJ: “You don’t even see other adults, nor even yourselves, as sentient beings. Babies must be like bundles of wires to you guys.”

    I’m just going to quote this lovely pile of shit for posterity, for the hate it is.

    It’s funny, because as soon as you posted it, my daughter climbed into my bed, said “I love you, Daddy” and we cuddled for a bit and she fell asleep.

    Two days ago, I taught her to get over her fear of swimming in the deep end, then her fear of the diving board. In an hour or two, she went from afraid, to gleefully doing cannonballs off the diving board.

    Yep, bundle of wires.

    She still has her own bedroom, and bed, and if we didn’t make her sleep there at some point would be happy to sleep in my bed every night if we let her… but that would kill my sex life.

    As for the handle change, I do it not out of flattery, but to confuse and dilute her message. I figure if she can troll, then I will too.

  • Gin Martini

    Ana: “I don’t know about the high N but two reasons come to mind. We are happy and want people that seek relationships to find happiness too.
    Trying to show some of the cornerstones or our marriage is a good way to tell them that things can work out. Specially since most of the married folks were not the hot kids they think will make it in the end. There is hope for the average to have a fulfilling romantic life if only they use some strategy.”

    I agree.

    Wait. Let me reword that. I’ll put on my “let’s imitate the tone of someone else” hat. This isn’t really me, but perhaps this tone will work better than my normal style:

    Yeah, you’d think that people who have actual life experiences accomplishing the stated goals of the site, would be treated with respect around here. But, it seems that such useful advice, backed up with actual facts, from people who lead such dull lives, is lost on most of single commenters here…

  • mr. wavevector

    That doesn’t mean a man’s leading isn’t desirable or important. I just happen to think that dictating restaurants is a silly example.

    Who chooses the restaurant seems to becoming HUS’s equivalent of who opens the door – a symbolic bone of contention.

    In regard to choosing the restaurant, this is my dinner date approach:

    - I initiate the date most of the time
    - I have a plan for the restaurant, including a reservation where possible
    - I have alternative plans in mind, should my date object to the first one
    - I am open to negotiation

    Because of the last two points, my wife (and previous girlfriends) view the process as egalitarian, because I am responsive to their desires. But I view it as an example of soft dominance because of the first two points; most of the time I’m initiating and making the plan, and they’re following my lead.

    The object of the date, after all, is to have a mutually enjoyable experience, not to assert dominance. But in most couples the man taking the lead facilitates having a mutually enjoyable experience.

    Also, when the women of my acquaintance say they want to be treated equally, it means they want to be treated with respect and consideration, not that they want to take the lead or initiate half the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mr. WV

      Because of the last two points, my wife (and previous girlfriends) view the process as egalitarian, because I am responsive to their desires. But I view it as an example of soft dominance because of the first two points; most of the time I’m initiating and making the plan, and they’re following my lead.

      For us, it really depends on the occasion. Going out to dinner for our anniversary will always be handled by my husband. Discussing what takeout to get on the way home from the beach is always a casual convo/negotiation.

      Grabbing a casual dinner on a Friday night is usually a casual convo as well.

      How about Indian?

      Had it for lunch. Thai?

      Sure.

      Honestly, it never gets more complicated than that.

      This Valentine’s Day, Mr. HUS gave me a small ceramic koi fish which sits on a shelf in the kitchen. It represents “Sushi on Demand.” Because I love sushi, whenever I am in the mood for it, I am allowed to hand it to him and declare sushi for dinner. According to Game wisdom, this is a supplicating gesture that should cause me to lose attraction for my husband. In actuality, I find it creative and charming and I crush on him a little every time I see that koi in the kitchen. I’ve used it about once a month so far, which is probably not any more frequent than we’d have sushi anyway. It is the thought that pleases me.

      Also, when the women of my acquaintance say they want to be treated equally, it means they want to be treated with respect and consideration, not that they want to take the lead or initiate half the time.

      Exactly. Benevolent Dominance for the win.

  • Maggie

    This is extreme imbalance and betrays a obsession/compulsive disorder.”

    This does not betray an obsessive/compulsive disorder at all. OCD is ALWAYS unpleasant.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. To restrict the subject to HUS. See “dominance”, benevolent and otherwise. See “leading”.
    See the comment threads.

    WRT “letting them cry”. You have to be firm. If you give in, you’ve trained the kid that kicking up a fuss is a winner. Kid has to lose.
    Tried to sell an article on consistency in child-rearing entitled “Reflections on Training Rats, Privates and Children”. Hell of title, imo. No luck, though.
    So if you’re not determined to win no matter what, don’t even start.
    Had an example visiting a couple of weeks ago. Mom was pretty firm. Which is to say the kid had to shriek, throw things, howl for at least an hour before Mom gave in.
    Fortunately, I’m wound the other way. The more the kids tried to work me, the madder I got and no damn’ way was I going to lose.
    I know, “win, lose” is a fascist construct in this venue. Got it.
    Anyway, it’s better if you can figure out some other way to begin with. But, as we see with Super Nanny, the adult has to outlast the kid. If you don’t think you can….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      WRT “letting them cry”. You have to be firm. If you give in, you’ve trained the kid that kicking up a fuss is a winner. Kid has to lose.
      Tried to sell an article on consistency in child-rearing entitled “Reflections on Training Rats, Privates and Children”. Hell of title, imo. No luck, though.

      Totally agree. I love that title – I was thinking of Pavlov’s dogs – same idea.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    Behaviorism gets a bad rap but it’s still valid in some cases. It’s how we learn. Hot stove and all that.

    Not sure how many times I have to say this, but “restaurant” is a metaphor for a good many things in which the man is expected to be dominant, benevolently or otherwise, to lead.
    A social worker once explained all the things ex-soldiers don’t worry about because it doesn’t occur to them. Timing of meals. Content of meals. Temperature of the house. Fixing their own meals or not. Various other things. And if the guy is allowing the other folks in the family to arrange all of those–because they make no difference to him–he will shortly be considered with the respect due whale boogers.
    And you can add construction workers, currently or earlier, various other rough ways of earning a living.
    So he’s supposed to pretend to care so he can insist on something or other.
    Wasn’t my idea.
    Then, as I mentioned earlier, Hannah Rosin said the guy had better man up restaurant-wise, while in a discussion of her book on losers–The End of Men. I presume she would accept an interpretation of her point as a metaphor, as well. Sort of what Law&Order calls an admission against interest.

    Mr. Wavevector describes how he leads. Good for him. Implication is that if he doesn’t, not only do they not have as many good times, his wife–or expanding this to relationships in general–will lose respect for him. Not because they’re not getting enough to eat when cooked by professionals, but because on a visceral level he’s supposed to do this. Even for something as relatively meaningless as where to go for dinner. If he doesn’t, even Hannah Rosin says he’s a loser and will lose the woman’s respect.
    Example: My temperature comfort range is about 66-80, top end a bit lower if it’s humid.
    My family will argue over 70 vs. 71. I never have to say anything about the temp for my own comfort. Not in decades. We’re always in my comfort range. So, according to my social worker buddy, I’d better figure out something to insist on to make up for being a submissive wimp wrt temp.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      Not sure how many times I have to say this, but “restaurant” is a metaphor for a good many things in which the man is expected to be dominant, benevolently or otherwise, to lead.

      Doesn’t matter how many times you say it – in my view it is not a good metaphor.

      I don’t understand Hannah Rosin, who has taught her son that men are bad.

      I think different styles of communication work for different couples. It’s a compatibility issue.

  • Gin Martini

    You are missing the concept of frame. If gave you the fish to curry favor, by purchasing dinner, it is supplicating. But since you go for sushi anyway and it doesn’t change anything, instead, it’s building an emotional connection with non-literal communication (“chick crack”).

  • BuenaVista

    I haven’t read Ferber, but I’m a big fan of the “2o minute rule.” Put the children to bed in their rooms at the same time every night; if they’re still crying after 20 minutes, they’re sick and need help. The transition is unpleasant for a few days as Susan notes, then … peace and harmony. My children sleep like logs to this day. Their mother then had her 20 minutes to smoke her two daily cigarettes and drink a glass of wine, and we had dinner in peace together every night. Son #2′s mother did the opposite and he has solipsistic tendencies that have made school and social interactions unnecessarily challenging. He also was the only sleep-deprived five year-old I have ever known.

    The business of parents sleeping with children is dangerous. One of my pediatricians looked at son #2′s mom, during a discussion of SIDS. He impassively stated: “There were 16 cases of SIDS in Maryland last year. All 16 were sleeping in their parents’ bed.” IOW, his thesis is that the 16 were smothered. That’s just my $0.02.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Son #2′s mother did the opposite and he has solipsistic tendencies that have made school and social interactions unnecessarily challenging. He also was the only sleep-deprived five year-old I have ever known.

      I don’t doubt it – our son was only 9 months and seemed to get little more than cat naps for a few days until we figured it out. Children need discipline so that they can distinguish between wants and needs. And babies need to be taught to soothe themselves.

      “I want to suck at your breast for hours to soothe myself” is a bad and unnecessary habit that makes mom sore. I have experience with that one too.

      My son was a Velcro baby.

  • Jayn Rand

    “We all agree that it is not attractive when a man says, “You decide. Whatever you want. I live to serve. Let me do all the housework. We don’t have to have sex if you don’t feel like it.”

    - Hold your horses there Susan. I haven’t agreed with that.

    “WRT “letting them cry”. You have to be firm. If you give in, you’ve trained the kid that kicking up a fuss is a winner. Kid has to lose.”

    - We’re not talking about kids wrt Cry It Out, we’re talking about infants.

    Infants don’t have to “lose”. Infants have to get their needs met.

  • JP

    Kids in your bed seems like a good pro-human idea to me. Just don’t roll over on them.

    It’s strange that I’m agreeing with PJ here, but I think the point is to let them get their needs met.

    However, as Susan kind of notes, you still want them to get sleep, so if they want to interact all night, then that’s a problem.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    For us, it really depends on the occasion.

    True. One type of outing that we have in addition to major celebrations and casual outings is a ‘date night’ about once a month. This is something I introduced a few years ago specifically because I thought the symbolic demonstration of leadership and caring would benefit our relationship. It is also an opportunity to introduce some variety and novelty to keep our life from getting too routine. The results have definitely met my expectations.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wavevector,

      Now that we’re empty nesters we don’t have a formal date night anymore, but it was key to contentment in our marriage when our kids were growing up. For us it was every other Tuesday night – because I could get a regular sitter on that day. I have many fond memories from that tradition.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Richard
    Thanks for the pointers on the Eastern Front. Agreed on getting the proper framework. Fun fact, a real sticking point in learning new facts is how to “integrate” knowledge in what you currently know. Otherwise, yeah, it’s just a set of meaningless facts that have no context.
    It seems that this is a fundamental purpose between the various myths and stories that make up “history.” The actual stuff is too damn complicated and it is easier to simply understand the stories, even if they are inaccurate.
    Double-agree on the logistics point. Even on the issue of the military combat, amateurs discuss F-22 vs. Su-30, professionals talk American System vs. Soviet system. I’m fortunate enough to frequent a board with some “professionals” in this matter, although a good chunk of them spent most of their days on the Fulda Gap during the Reagan years.

    I’ll definitely take a look at your book rec.

    Fish,
    Higher N does not necessarily imply that one is a worse person. It implies that one is probably not well suited for a relationship. For instance, Taylor Swift is probably a fantastic person in certain regards, for example her charity work. I would feel more comfortable shaving my testicles with a chainsaw than dating her.
    On the other hand, a lot of guys mistake their visceral disgust for high-N women as the woman having an inferior character in general.

    WRT to Hope’s F-types, restaraunt metaphor, etc:
    Dismissing things as “gender differences” is not useful when SayWhattt or other single women will dismiss men for what she perceives as “not caring.” So when Richard says he doesn’t care about the temperature difference, if he says it with “the wrong frame” or in the “wrong way,” and it is interpreted as not caring about the girl’s interests in general, BAM, now we have a problem.
    Over a 71 degree vs. 70 degree difference.
    Not giving a man an intellectual framework in which to understand this and making vague references to “frame” is not helpful to men. It is basically sending them into a minefield with a vague reference that the color of the grass around the mines will be one shade lighter than the rest of the grass and that you can step on certain mines if their elevation is slightly depressed as long as you step gingerly and that this is in fact the only way to cross.
    Except that you are telling that to a 400 pound man that can barely move and is color-blind.
    He needs what we men call a “map.”

  • Jayn Rand

    BuenaVista July 8, 2013 at 11:25 am

    I haven’t read Ferber, but I’m a big fan of the “2o minute rule.” Put the children to bed in their rooms at the same time every night; if they’re still crying after 20 minutes, they’re sick and need help. The transition is unpleasant for a few days as Susan notes, then … peace and harmony. My children sleep like logs to this day. Their mother then had her 20 minutes to smoke her two daily cigarettes and drink a glass of wine”

    ^^^ This is the type of thing that makes my grandparents constantly say, “these people are uncivilized, selfish and have no love in their hearts.”

    I’m not saying I agree, well in toto anyway, but from an outside perspective, coming from a very affectionate and family oriented culture, such attitudes do seem strange.

    “The business of parents sleeping with children is dangerous. ”

    - Hog wash. Most of the world co-sleeps with their small children. The only reason the so-called “modern west” stopped is because of Big Mattress. That’s right. It became a sign of wealth and status for each child to have their own room and bed.

    As far as SIDS, co-sleeping, which doesn’t exclusively mean sleeping in the same bed but includes same room/different bed or crib, is the number one way to PREVENT SIDS. Most SIDS cases are caused by babies sleeping alone in an entirely different room where there parents cannot see them while they are suffering and dying from SIDS and hence cannot prevent it.

    All of the cases of babies being injured in co-sleeping are not because of the co-sleeping itself but because of doing something like taking a nap with ones baby on a small couch where he or she can roll off onto the floor, or other unsafe habits.

    Having your baby sleep in your room or sleep in a baby bed that has one side connected with your bed so he or she is next to your, or in the very same bed WITHOUT covers or pillows on him or her – these are all safe.

    “One of my pediatricians looked at son #2′s mom”

    - Son # 2′s mom? Hmmmm.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Richard,

    Mr. Wavevector describes how he leads. Good for him. Implication is that if he doesn’t, not only do they not have as many good times, his wife–or expanding this to relationships in general–will lose respect for him.

    You always twist this issue in some negative manner – I’m assuming because of some personal hangups. I prefer to look at it more positively – that my wife enjoys it when I initiate and lead because it demonstrates caring and emotional investment. She reciprocates in ways I find gratifying and pleasurable. Good times for both of us.

  • Jayn Rand

    “However, as Susan kind of notes, you still want them to get sleep, so if they want to interact all night, then that’s a problem.”

    First, wrt to Ferber Method, I was talking about infants, not kids. Nevertheless, the babies get to “interact” by being near or against their parents which soothes them. Moreover, the heartbeat and breathing pattern of the baby and mother regulates to each other and induces calm. And of course night breast feeding can take place without having to wake up and get out of bed to go into another room to do it.

    The Ferber Method is all about teaching babies to “self soothe”. Why in the hell should a baby have to “self soothe”?!
    Its the parents job to soothe their infant. Not just job but my god, are there really THAT many western people out there with no parental instincts whatsoever and no love in their hearts for their own offspring?

    Going by all the kids on Big Pharma prescriptions for things like “depression”, the answer is YES.

    If you don’t want to love your infants, to have them next to you and make them feel soothed by your constant presence, which infants NEED, then why have them in the first place? They will just grow up to – well, look around you, you can see the result of how they are growing up.

    Don’t have kids if you are not an affectionate person by nature or if your culture is anti-affection. Such cultures need to die out.

  • BuenaVista

    Jayne, your shaming post makes the logical errors of a) assuming that someone who disagrees with your preferred mode of childrearing is incapable of being a humane parent; and b) that the most logical explanation (that my pediatrician offered, based on observation) for a syndrome with no known cause is a priori incorrect. Neither is anything but an opinion, apparently derived without experience. I’m glad that you enjoy your opinions and that there is no reason for you to consider others’ actual experience and professional judgment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Neither is anything but an opinion, apparently derived without experience. I’m glad that you enjoy your opinions and that there is no reason for you to consider others’ actual experience and professional judgment.

      +1 and ROFL!

      Plain Jane has never had a child, AFAIK. Her words carry zero weight on this topic, AFAIAC.

  • Jayn Rand

    “You do know that you’ve stooped to PJ’s level with all the different handles, right? Most of us consider that habit a symptom of her issues.”

    - I contain multitudes and my handles reflect that ;)

    “We would do whatever we could to get him to fall asleep, then transfer him to his crib without waking him up. It never worked – the minute he detected movement or activity, he was wide awake and demanding attention. ”

    That’s your issue right there Susan. You transferred him to his crib when he wanted to sleep all night with his mom and dad to bond, feel safe, let the oxytocin flow.

    Once he fell asleep in his bed you needed to keep him put there.

    They are only infants once, my god.

  • Jayn Rand

    Buena, you can do the research yourself.

  • JP

    “The Ferber Method is all about teaching babies to “self soothe”. Why in the hell should a baby have to “self soothe”?!
    Its the parents job to soothe their infant. Not just job but my god, are there really THAT many western people out there with no parental instincts whatsoever and no love in their hearts for their own offspring?”

    It has nothing to do with “love in their hearts”.

    It has to do with disputes over the developmental needs of babies, who happen to be neurologically incomplete.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @WV
    Your wife enjoys you taking an active leadership role.
    Okay.
    Assume the negative. You do not take an active leadership role and are deferrent.
    What does that imply?
    It does not necesasrily imply the opposite of “enjoyment,” but it is an interesting issue.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Mr. Wavevector.

    Mr. Wavevector describes how he leads. Good for him. Implication is that if he doesn’t, not only do they not have as many good times, his wife–or expanding this to relationships in general–will lose respect for him.

    You always twist this issue in some negative manner – I’m assuming because of some personal hangups. I prefer to look at it more positively – that my wife enjoys it when I initiate and lead because it demonstrates caring and emotional investment. She reciprocates in ways I find gratifying and pleasurable. Good times for both of us.

    Two issues: First is…I’ve heard it a number of places and Susan has had several posts which included extended discussions of dominance and leading and tingles. I will guarantee you, it’s not my idea and if I were in charge we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
    Second, you point out your wife enjoys your leading. IOW, if you don’t, problems may arise. Something she enjoys would be absent. I suspect you can find other examples in your life in which you are expected to lead even if it doesn’t include chow.

    I will say that the view of the subject seems to have “evolved”. Used to be the guy better be leading one way or another or no tingles for you, buddy. Now it’s just a good way to demonstrate caring.

  • Abbot

    “a lot of guys mistake their visceral disgust for high-N women as the woman having an inferior character in general”

    Actually, it is women and especially feminists who broadcast that message either because they really do believe men are linking inferior character to high-N or are seeking to push that false connection in order to shame men or make them look stupid

  • Jayn Rand

    “It has to do with disputes over the developmental needs of babies, who happen to be neurologically incomplete.”

    Yeah, so imagine craving closeness, affection, bonding, oxytocin, and not getting it at such a tender age, new to the world, being neurologically incomplete.

    “It has nothing to do with “love in their hearts”.”

    Love may be there in a theoretical sense, but babies don’t care about the theoretical, they care about touch and warmth.

    Look at it this way – the parents are sleeping together right? They are grown adults yet if one of them started sleeping separately the other would worry, the bed would feel empty, they togetherness craved and they partner would be missed.

    So how is it that adults need this but somehow infants don’t?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Dinkey Pawson, I think it’s not sex differences per se, but personality differences that frequently manifest as sex differences. My husband is also INFJ, and upon reading the passage about how INFJs experience emotions, he nodded his head and said, “exactly.” He reads people, including me, very well. If there is such a thing as having “too much” empathy to the point of emotional pollution, we have it.

    This is not “magic,” but a combination of Ni, Fe and Se, which basically means gathering information via the senses, making sense of that information via creating an emotional landscape that recreate another’s emotional state, and coming to an intuitive conclusion as well as judgement that is well-reputed to be accurate.

    It is a markedly different way of experiencing the world from those of NTJ and STJ personalities, who gather information via logic and thought processes of discrete categories, clear definitions, and measurable goals. These are great when applied to a statistical whole and modeling trends and objects, but fail in modeling human emotional interactions, which are varied and nuanced.

    Humans are of sufficiently high complexity that any strict model that does not adapt “on-the-fly” becomes too restrictive. Even if the number of possibilities was increased from 2 to 4, it still will not be able to predict everything. Increasing to 16×16 might (as in the case of MBTI), but that is sufficiently high on the order of complexity that most people will not be able to make an accurate judgement without gathering much more information.

  • BuenaVista

    Jayne,

    Grrrr. I did the research, asked my experts, made my decisions, and have enjoyed the outcomes. But am I not repeating myself, and why isn’t this obvious?

  • mr. wavevector

    @ ADBG,

    Assume the negative. You do not take an active leadership role and are deferrent.
    What does that imply?
    It does not necesasrily imply the opposite of “enjoyment,” but it is an interesting issue.

    I went through a phase where I became overly “beta” – passive and deferential. It didn’t make either of us happy. She pursued and demanded, I withdrew. That’s the emotional tailspin that causes so many relationships to crash and burn. Definitely not enjoyment.

    I concluded our relationship needs a certain dynamic. I don’t like being passive and deferential most of the time and she doesn’t like initiating and leading most of the time.

    @ Richard,

    I will say that the view of the subject seems to have “evolved”. Used to be the guy better be leading one way or another or no tingles for you, buddy. Now it’s just a good way to demonstrate caring.

    I hope our views are evolving. Otherwise we’re just wasting a lot of time here.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn.
    SIDS refers to a “syndrome”. A syndrome is not a disease. As with Gulf War Syndrome, it is a statistical association of various conditions occurring under various conditions but significantly–some say–associated with service in Gulf I.
    Perhaps the pediatrician was saying what was called SIDS–means baby stopped breathing for no known reason–was really smothering by parent rollover.
    I recall when SIDS was big–meaning they talked about it on the morning shows, it was in Readers Digest, Sunday supplements–the kid was supposed to be put face down. Or they’d all die. Later, it was face up or they’d all die. With a pillow or….. Without a head support or…. Then some mom had a bunch of kids die of SIDS and they looked at her for murder but all they had was numbers, there being no clinical cause of death other than stopped breathing.
    My twenty-month granddaughter is extraordinarily strong and fast and willful. If you’d rolled on her at age seven months, you’d probably have found yourself on the floor. But a normal kid at one month…parent sleeping the sleep of exhaustion could probably kill the kid without waking. And there’d be no sign except, possibly, some dried baby saliva on the parent’s jammies. Which nobody would think to look for.

  • Jayn Rand

    Richard, a newborn infant can be put in one a one-side open co-sleeping bed nest. See here;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eddv1t2P7kw

    However myself and everyone in my family co-slept from birth onward without those and none of us died from SIDS.

    Co-sleeping is the norm worldwide. Putting babies alone in a room by themselves to suffer loneliness is not.

  • Richard Aubrey

    I hope our views are evolving. Otherwise we’re just wasting a lot of time here.

    WV. Views evolve. Underlying reality may or may not be reflected by earlier or later views.
    What annoys me is the strong implication that what was gospel last year–speaking generally–nobody ever said and anybody who says they did has a hangup.
    I think that what was gospel was satisfactory until it ran into some other issues and the group mind decided to dump dominance and leading to allow something else to stand more easily and without contradiction. Perhaps the concept of dominance leading to tingles embarrassed even its proponents. We’re supposedly H. Sap and ev psych says we have a forebrain, even though it’s rarely used in dating. But insisting the forebrain gets all dusty and rusty isn’t maybe where people want to go.

  • J

    Not only that, the cortisol levels of babies “trained to sleep” under this method are through the roof! Read this comment below of a girl who said her parents using the method told her they let her cry for 9 hours straight when she was an infant!

    Screw the kid! What about mom’s cortisol level?

    All joking aside, as new parents, we had a beautiful nursery set up and a kid who wouldn’t sleep in it. I would get up and rock the baby and try to get him to sleep only to have him wake up screaming the minute his back hit the crib mattress. For weeks, DH, who had to work in the morning, couldn’t sleep from the crying and from my getting up and down. All the parents he worked with suggesting letting my son “cry it out.” Out of fatigue and frustation, I agreed. My son wailed like a banshee. With each cry, my milk let down making my breasts sore and painful. The constant crying made me nervous. My husband dug in and wouldn’t let me get up to tend to the kid as he felt we had to teach him to self-sooth. After a few hours of this, I literally smacked my husband when he tried to restrain me, got up and nursed my son and then brought him to bed with us. The next day we removed the crib from the beautiful nursery and lashed it to our bed so that we could co-sleep without fear of rolling over on the baby. Never lost a minute of sleep after that.

    A baby’s cry is extremely annoying and anxiety provoking. It’s nature’s way of letting you know that you need to tend to that baby. I don’t understand how people can let a baby cry it out.

    @Ana #391

    Kids in your bed seems like a good pro-human idea to me. Just don’t roll over on them.

    There are “safety rules” for co-sleeping: no alcohol for the parents, no loose bedding, etc. I’m not going to list them as I haven’t done it in years and I don’t want to give dated info. I also notice that in some circles cribs have been replaced by cospleeping units that attached to the parents’ bed. It’s not longer necessary to lash the crib to a bed.
    Well said.

    SIDS is not caused by co-sleeping BV.

    Correct, it is not. However cigarette smoke filling the air while an infant sleeps is a KNOWN factor.

    I do believe though that a parent can role over on a child and suffocate it, but that’s not SIDS. That’s why it is of the utmost importance to observe precautions when sleeping with kids.

    Re co-sleeping and young adult personality–My sons went from co-sleeping with us, to sleeping in the same bed as toddlers and pre-schoolers, to sharing a bedroom and finally to having their own rooms. They are both very independent, secure and compassionate young men.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Richard,

    I think that what was gospel was satisfactory until it ran into some other issues and the group mind decided to dump dominance and leading to allow something else to stand more easily and without contradiction. Perhaps the concept of dominance leading to tingles embarrassed even its proponents

    The evolution is one of refinement, not contradiction. No-one is dumping dominance as an attraction cue for most women. Caring is not opposed to dominance. “Benevolent masculine dominance” is an artful balance of qualities that seem contradictory but are not. For that reason it is beyond the comprehension of those with black and white mindsets.

  • Anacaona

    @J
    I didn’t comment that.
    I do want to add that I co-slept all my life and so far I seem independent enough to leave behind my whole culture. I think the kids that end up too attached probably have other factors at work. Associating sleeping with being loved and safe surely cannot make you dependent when you are awake. My mother never tolerated tantrums or manipulative tears when we were growing up, so I don’t think William will end up messed up, the moment he can communicate I will not tolerate attempts at manipulation.

  • Hope

    I have met a woman who rolled onto her newborn while co-sleeping, and the baby died. It was a terrible tragedy. Having lost a child without cause, I don’t know how I would deal with knowing I caused the child’s death.

    I co-slept with our little boy for the first short while. One morning my MIL woke me up, and I was exhausted and had fallen asleep with a blanket. The blanket was over his head, and I was rather scared. He was fortunately fine. After that I just slept in the same room without him on the same surface as me.

    As an aside, every child is different. Aidan would never fall asleep after the first little while when I was around, because he would just want to explore and play. He does not settle down or relax in my arms and always tries to wriggle around. There is no such thing as a peaceful cuddling.

    He sleeps through the night now, and is happy and all smiles most of the time (when he’s not miserably sick). Everyone who meets him remarks on how he’s a happy baby. We had stopped co-sleeping since he was a few weeks old. He is still a squirmy baby, and he still never falls asleep next to us. If there’s anyone in the room with him, he would refuse to nap.

    If someone wants to tell me I’m being abusive by not staying at home with him, not co-sleeping with him, and not breastfeeding him directly, they’re entitled to their opinion. But I’m happy that our boy is happy, and that’s what matters.

  • J

    @SW

    And I also agree that being grilled on behavior from 1983 would be a dealbreaker for me. Which is fine – it would be an indication of incompatibility wrt sociosexuality. That’s a feature, not a bug. The guy who wants that info. is looking for a woman who wants to be asked that question so that she can answer it.

    And we see that play out on some of the other blogs in this corner of the net. There are women who feel a big need to re-hash things that really should have resolved years ago. It’s not healthy.

    I know. It’s all over the angrysphere, mostly perpetrated by men by men whose wives are not attracted to them. I’m sorry, but you need to consider the source. I have never pushed that metaphor, I think it’s stupid.

    Angrysphere!? That’s brilliant. I love it. But it’s not just by men whose wives are not attracted to them. There are also cuckolds, male virgin and men who have undergone multiple divorces.

    I find it creative and charming and I crush on him a little every time I see that koi in the kitchen.

    DH put a “mix tape” on an SD card that I plug into my MP3 player when I exercise. I grin like a 14 year old every time I use it.

    @RA

    Hannah Rosin said the guy had better man up restaurant-wise, while in a discussion of her book on losers–The End of Men. I presume she would accept an interpretation of her point as a metaphor, as well.

    IMO, Hannah Rosin says all sorts of shit, mostly because the Altantic Monthly pays her to be outrageous.

    @GM
    That’s some sweet dad/daughter stuff. Nice to see that side of you.

    if we didn’t make her sleep there at some point would be happy to sleep in my bed every night if we let her… but that would kill my sex life.

    An adventurer like you thinks bed is the only place in the house where one can sex? You are the last guy I ever thought I’d have to say this to, but don’t be afraid to experiment. ;-)

  • Anacaona

    As an aside, every child is different. Aidan would never fall asleep after the first little while when I was around, because he would just want to explore and play. He does not settle down or relax in my arms and always tries to wriggle around. There is no such thing as a peaceful cuddling.
    He sleeps through the night now, and is happy and all smiles most of the time (when he’s not miserably sick). Everyone who meets him remarks on how he’s a happy baby. We had stopped co-sleeping since he was a few weeks old. He is still a squirmy baby, and he still never falls asleep next to us. If there’s anyone in the room with him, he would refuse to nap.

    Yeah William is the opposite he hates being alone and is the most relaxed when we hold him and when there is people in the room, he also falls sleep really easily when he is tired and doesn’t wake up if you move him during the deep end of it. Everyone also comments he is also a happy smiley sweet baby. Temperaments come wired IMO. My husband is also touchy feeling so I guess he got that from him. Let’s see with number 2 what will work best with him or her, for all we know I could get the opposite.

  • Anacaona

    An adventurer like you thinks bed is the only place in the house where one can sex?
    Heh I was just thinking that. I haven’t had sex in my bed since the baby was born. But we haven’t slowed down in that department either. Maybe he likes midnight quickies? I also read in one of my mommy Facebook pages of people that do it with their babies in bed. Kind of icky for me but this just shows that people that want to have sex will find a way to have sex the baby is just a excuse, IME.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Jayn.
    The open sided whatchamacallit is neat. It is not the issue, since the co-sleeping thing is almost always done without it, either in the holy innocent third world or the evil and rotten first world, but mostly America.
    One Brit writer said the American soul is “hard, isolate, stoic, a killer. It has never yet melted.”
    Blushes. Rubs toe on the ground. You really didn’t have to say that, but it was nice of you.
    Also. Don’t forget it.
    Good enough for you?

    WV. Black and white, huh? Me, I’m just following the threads on HUS.
    Some folks unsaying what they said isn’t “evolving”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Some folks unsaying what they said isn’t “evolving”.

      Uh oh. I call that changing my mind, and I like to think it’s an evolution rather than a random occurrence.

  • J

    I didn’t comment that.

    I most have typed the wrong number. I liked your comment on the value of the opinions of us happily married.

    I do want to add that I co-slept all my life and so far I seem independent enough to leave behind my whole culture.

    Well, yeah.

    BTW, I put one of my co-sleepers on a plane. He’ll be gone for 5 weeks. He looked so much like a grown man as he boarded the plane and didn’t look back, that I cried my eyes out. He called this morning to tell me about his placement audition with one of his idols. It went very well.

    Later that day, DH and I moved our older son into a dorm room. He’s too busy to call me, but I have his cell phone charger, so he will eventually.

    I think the kids that end up too attached probably have other factors at work. Associating sleeping with being loved and safe surely cannot make you dependent when you are awake.

    Yes.

    My mother never tolerated tantrums or manipulative tears when we were growing up, so I don’t think William will end up messed up, the moment he can communicate I will not tolerate attempts at manipulation.

    IME, there’s a big difference between wants and needs. I tried to give my kids everything they needed. Wants were another story.

    That being said, infants don’t understand cause and effect well enough to manipulate. A crying baby is a baby in distress. Toddlers do understand cause and effect. They are also just coming into the understanding that you and they are separate individuals which makes them stubborn and ornery. IME there’s a narrow line that you have to walk between squelching their personalities and letting them run the show. Two – four and 14-18 are a lot alike.

  • J

    Heh I was just thinking that. I haven’t had sex in my bed since the baby was born. But we haven’t slowed down in that department either.

    I think the changes in venue can help keep things fresh. ;-)

  • J

    Let’s see with number 2 what will work best with him or her, for all we know I could get the opposite.

    That happens. My sons have two completely different temperaments.

  • J

    I’d stake my life on my husband’s history of loyalty and honesty, and would have done so after knowing him a year. Only true sociopaths have secret pasts that are incongruent with their behavior, e.g. Clark Rockefeller. If you can’t sniff that out, you deserve what you get.

    You’ve just hit on a major problem in the angrysphere. Many of these guys have such difficulty in dealing with others and in intuiting things about others that they need a highly complicated set of rules to apply to social situations. That’s why they worry over who orders in a restaurant or who gets to be on top during sex. Phony “dominance” becomes a proxy for actual social confidence. Likewise with the need to know an exact number or to examine women for “slut tells.” They can’t accurately judge character without quantifying it. They want rules for human relationships that are as immutible as the laws of physics.

    It’s all rather (Forgive me, GM.) spergy. There’s often something off socially that probably really is related to STEM skills and/or being somewhere on the spectrum or damn close. Hence the attraction to “game” as a short course in remedial social skills.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “now. It’s all over the angrysphere, mostly perpetrated by men whose wives are not attracted to them. I’m sorry, but you need to consider the source. I have never pushed that metaphor, I think it’s stupid.”

    I think your misunderstanding Richards comment/suggestion/argument which is that failure to choose the restaurant causes that lack of attraction.

    As for the ‘angrysphere’ a group of men trying to figure out why things happen and creating plausible reasons for it are not nuts.

    As you said, there wives are not attracted to them and they do not know why.

    Frankly as an observer there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it which is a comforting thought.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think your misunderstanding Richards comment/suggestion/argument which is that failure to choose the restaurant causes that lack of attraction.

      I get it, and I don’t agree. I really think this is much ado about nothing.

      My guess is that the restaurant deference is just the tip of the iceberg when the man is spineless. No woman will be happy controlling her man, though some will enjoy being miserable doing so.

      In any case, I think what we’re really talking about is women finding it unattractive when men take a “whatever you say, dear” approach. We don’t want to make all the choices and be in charge! Egalitarian works for many, Benevolent Male Dominance works for many. Pussy whipped doesn’t work for many.

  • Lokland

    which is not a…

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    This post is trying to help college girls get high-quality relationship-oriented college boys.

    The relationship has a soft termination point of graduation, so marital relationships really don’t come into play here.

    This is relationship training, not marriage!

    (I’m beginning to understand why college girls don’t seem to really participate in these discussions.)

  • mr. wavevector

    Many of these guys have such difficulty in dealing with others and in intuiting things about others that they need a highly complicated set of rules to apply to social situations.

    That’s a good point. It’s why a lot of people can’t deal with the apparent contradictions that arise in real live relationships.

    That rigidity of thinking is not limited to social awareness. I’ve had many a physics or engineering student who can’t reason beyond the established rules and examples.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    “”Uh oh. I call that changing my mind, and I like to think it’s an evolution rather than a random occurrence.””

    A changed mind acknowledges the previous view. It does not insist that those who remember it are just wrong. See WV.

    I am not particularly interested in the marriage/dominance thing by itself. You can find a bunch of stuff on the web. “No More Christian Nice Guy”, reviewed by YT on Amazon. “Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference” ditto. Robert Glover, “No More Mr. Nice Guy”, and it goes downhill from there.
    I am interested in the idea that dominance is an attractor, and amongst the younger set, perhaps really powerful dominance is an attractor to the extent of being dangerous.
    Combine that with the fact that we live in a world shorn of sharp edges–METAPHOR ALERT, DAMMIT!–and there is so little to be dominant about that WV has to tell us about setting up a date. IOW, men have to be dominant, benevolently to be sure, about that which has no meaning. That’s bad enough, but that it still functions as an attractor is disappointing.

    I’ve been dominant, sometimes when women were around, because in the circs THE SHIT WAS ABOUT TO HIT THE FAN. They did what I said. Things went okay.
    Other than that, faking it feels really, really stupid.
    In one, or possibly two, of those situations, I later got what, thirty years afterwards, I figured were IOI. May have been the dominance when it counted or it may have been my warm and caring personality.
    Picture half a dozen people in a van trying to figure out where to stop for lunch. If I put my oar in, I reduce the possibility somebody else will get what they really want. And I don’t “really want” anything but whatever happens to be in front of me, so there’s no reason for me to take from the more choosy their choice. It means I’m not being even a little dominant. I get by.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RA

      we live in a world shorn of sharp edges–

      Do you recall wondering how males have been feminized by society? This is it – we have robbed males of the opportunities to experience and demonstrate masculinity by encountering and conquering sharp edges.

      I think you’re one of a disappearing breed – the benevolent alpha. The greatest fear of many men today is not getting enough sex. We’re complacent, lazy, spoiled brats.

  • Lokland

    @JP

    “This is relationship training, not marriage!”

    You mean all the seniors discussing what they would do if their spouse kicked the bucket isn’t OT?!?!?!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    In this thread, metaphors must be 100% accurate and applicable to my life, all the time, or else they are totally useless.

  • JP

    “In this thread, metaphors must be 100% accurate and applicable to my life, all the time, or else they are totally useless.”

    I’m thinking that we could turn some of these threads into a well-received self-writing post-modern play.

  • Gin Martini

    JP: brilliant. HUS is MTR/fling advice, not LTR/marriage. All us married folks should recuse ourselves.

    J, thanks. She’s a doll.

    I was exaggerating on “kill”. Still, the bedroom sees 99% of the action. You’re fooling yourself if you think every other room hasn’t seen action. Including the kitchen island… but we don’t tell the guests eating there that.

    With three kids, the chance of them walking in on us is a bit high, so we usually stay in the bedroom. Last Christmas Eve, we were in front of the fireplace, and my oldest son walked in.

    He was concerned that Mom was in pain.

    The upshot is wifey is only really comfortable in the bedroom for daily activities. Everything else is just garnish.

    Oh wait, TMI? I’m sorry, I’m supposed to be asexual and preparing for death at this age, right? Lulz.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gin Martini

      A college relationship may or may not be a fling, depending on the intentions and emotions of the two parties involved. No different than in your day.

  • JP

    @OTC:

    “JP: brilliant. HUS is MTR/fling advice, not LTR/marriage. All us married folks should recuse ourselves.”

    I was thinking more in the context of this particular post, since it’s directed toward college girls and establishing trainer college relationships where you develop relationship skills within the safety of the college environment.

    There needs to be a new term for College Trainer LTR’s.

    C-LTR?

    That kind of gives it that Control-Alt-Delete feel, which is what happens after you graduate.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    College Training Relationships of Lust
    CTRLs

    The thing I love best about CTRLs is that they are easily implodable whenever you like and easily constructed. They are sort of like port-o-pottys.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Plain Jane has never had a child, AFAIK. Her words carry zero weight on this topic, AFAIAC.”

    True that I’ve never had a child, at least one that any of you know about ;)

    But I do have plenty of experience co-sleeping.

    And you said yourself Susan that when you put your baby boy down in your bed with you, he fell asleep. Only when you picked him up to put him in his own room did he wake up again and cry.

    So why not just let him stay in bed with you and sleep soundly? I don’t get it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And you said yourself Susan that when you put your baby boy down in your bed with you, he fell asleep. Only when you picked him up to put him in his own room did he wake up again and cry.

      So why not just let him stay in bed with you and sleep soundly? I don’t get it.

      I’m not interested in the topic, but I will clarify here. He fell asleep at the breast, usually in a rocking chair. Moving him off my breast woke him and gave him determination to engage.

      If I was present, he did not want to sleep. At all. Ever. Get it?

      My son is 26 and a fine adult. Don’t advise me – or anyone else here – on parenting. Or I’ll ban you.

  • Esau

    SW: “In any case, I think what we’re really talking about is women finding it unattractive when men take a “whatever you say, dear” approach. We don’t want to make all the choices and be in charge!”

    No, Susan, you are flat wrong here. What “we’re” talking about, what Aubrey has been so bravely holding the fort on, is not the fate of the 100% spineless wimp; you make up that strawman yourself, to avoid engaging the real point. We’re talking about the main run of regular guys, whom you now seem to have trouble even imagining that they exist.

    “My guess is that the restaurant deference is just the tip of the iceberg when the man is spineless.”

    Talk about black and white thinking! If he fails the restaurant leadership test, then he must be a total wimp! as there is no in-between. You seem to admit the existence of no men anywhere between the two poles of manifest dominance and utter supplication. And in doing so you miss — deliberately? certainly, conveniently — the entire point, which that there is actually a huge population of men who want to behave decently and honorably and have a good life, but who are being judged on weird, harsh, and senseless criteria that bubble up from women’s subconscious. Always pushing the blame solely back onto men — they’re just defectives who can’t intuit correctly! go Team Woman, go! — is a bigotry that blinds you and so many of the female commentators to this whole side of reality.

    (Now, I do owe Hope a polite and respectful reply from earlier; I’ll be working on that for a while before posting on anything else.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      And in doing so you miss — deliberately? certainly, conveniently — the entire point, which that there is actually a huge population of men who want to behave decently and honorably and have a good life, but who are being judged on weird, harsh, and senseless criteria that bubble up from women’s subconscious. Always pushing the blame solely back onto men — they’re just defectives who can’t intuit correctly!

      No, you’re missing the point. I firmly believe that women don’t really give a shit who chooses the restaurant. And I think that a very small percentage of men even have this problem, though admittedly there’s a heavy concentration of them in this corner of the net.

      I’ve already said I think the restaurant metaphor is a manosphere myth that’s been generalized to the whole married population without basis.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Esau is being quite aggressive here indeed.

    Though I would make that analogy that while social interactions are like minefields, the mines in this case are other people. It is the responsibility of the mines to redesign themselves to go off on the correct people.

    Sometimes women (and men) who get burned, instead of switching to a more complicated design, become so sensitive that even the slightest touch sets them off.

    Which does a great job of getting rid of interlocuters.

    On the other hand, it also blows yourself up, too.

  • JP

    “Do you recall wondering how males have been feminized by society? This is it – we have robbed males of the opportunities to experience and demonstrate masculinity by encountering and conquering sharp edges.”

    This is a self-solving problem.

    In fact, this is on the bottom of the list of things that I worry about.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Do you recall wondering how males have been feminized by society? This is it – we have robbed males of the opportunities to experience and demonstrate masculinity by encountering and conquering sharp edges.”

    You mean I need to break glass bottles over their heads?

  • JP

    @PJ:

    Are you going to touch the third rail some more to see what happens?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan
    “”Do you recall wondering how males have been feminized by society? This is it – we have robbed males of the opportunities to experience and demonstrate masculinity by encountering and conquering sharp edges.””

    Another metaphor: The garage door opener. When returning with the family in a sheeting rain, the father/husband no longer has to get out of the car, getting wet and cold, to open the garage door so his family can be dry and warm. So not only do I not get credit for being tough enough to take it–there being nothing to take–I don’t get credit for a minor sacrifice for the family, there being no sacrifice involved. And my son doesn’t have a minor rite of passage when it’s his turn to take the hit for the others.
    Going back to the pre-industrial farming, or perhaps even to today’s farming involving single-digit % of the population. Lots of sharp edges, even speaking figuratively. Getting a recalcitrant half-ton animal into harness to do a day’s work it would rather not do. Cutting a tree and cutting it up without getting crippled. Dropping it between the barn and the corncrib without damaging either.
    Went to Mansfield, MO, where Laura Ingalls Wilder and her family ended up. Turns out her hubby was 5’4″ and had a bum leg. Must have had to man up frequently with other guys trying to take advantage of him when settling slightly ahead of the county sheriff’s jurisdiction. Not to mention all the work of farming.
    The old description of women’s affairs, “distaff side” after a tool for spinning thread has a masculine analog, “spear side”. Not ax, plow, sickle, forge side. Not sword, either, swords being too expensive for the regular guy. IOW, fighting was not merely the sport of the local notables. It was a necessity, the guys getting together when the bandits or the slavers showed up. Or some nutcase thought he could take what he wanted.

    Additionally, for some visceral reason, artificial adrenaline events–skydiving–seem to me to be metaphorically like gym-originated muscles. Something not quite solid about either. Sort of like a sugar cookie made with Splenda or something.
    Perhaps this is the reason for the fascination with SEALs. Or maybe it’s just me.

  • Fish

    @GM
    “Yeah, you’d think that people who have actual life experiences accomplishing the stated goals of the site, would be treated with respect around here. But, it seems that such useful advice, backed up with actual facts, from people who lead such dull lives, is lost on most of single commenters here…”

    My issues with the methods that a lot of the married posters advocate is much the same way the athletes who were successful at their particular sport don’t necessarily make good coaches. Given that the mean N is 6, someone whose N = 1 and is married is just as much an outlier as myself. The “ideal” is probably somewhere in the middle.

  • Jayn Rand

    ” No woman will be happy controlling her man, though some will enjoy being miserable doing so. ”

    What do you mean by “controlling?”

    If he massages her feet every time she asks, is that “controlling”? in your book?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What do you mean by “controlling?”

      If he massages her feet every time she asks, is that “controlling”? in your book?

      Only if she orders him around instead of asking nicely.

  • J

    @GM

    J, thanks. She’s a doll.

    I thought the pic of your kids was very cute.

    With three kids, the chance of them walking in on us is a bit high, so we usually stay in the bedroom.

    Understandable. My kids were both very young during our venue changing days. Once we got them out of your room, we starting having sex in there again.

    Last Christmas Eve, we were in front of the fireplace, and my oldest son walked in.

    That’s awful. Once, when my youngest was 11, we woke him. He began banging on the door, demanding to know what we were doing. DH told him I was having a nightmare, but he figured it out. The next day he told us 50 was too old for sex. He’s a lot like PJ in that regard. ;-)

    He was concerned that Mom was in pain.

    Yeah, that’s the universal reaction.

    Oh wait, TMI? I’m sorry, I’m supposed to be asexual and preparing for death at this age, right? Lulz.

    I too am preparing for death.

    I want to die by heartache during an orgasm.

  • Jayn Rand

    I have mixed feelings about parents with kids in the house having sex. It definitely should not be regular. Every 2 or 3 months have the grandparents watch them for the weekend and check into a resort. Get it out of your system and then return to celibacy for the next 3 months.

  • JP

    “What do you mean by “controlling?”

    If he massages her feet every time she asks, is that “controlling”? in your book?”

    It’s incredibly annoying.

    Few things put me in a bad mood faster than that.

  • Jayn Rand

    Foot massaging puts you in a bad mood? Or getting your feet massaged?

  • JP

    A foot massage request. Not my thing.

  • JP

    @Fish:

    The N=1 thing is just a question of deciding that your N will be 1 and acting accordingly.

    As J might note, you just operate under the presumption that if you break it, you buy it.

    Perfectionistic thinking at its best.

  • Jayn Rand

    “You’ve just hit on a major problem in the angrysphere. Many of these guys have such difficulty in dealing with others and in intuiting things about others that they need a highly complicated set of rules to apply to social situations. That’s why they worry over who orders in a restaurant or who gets to be on top during sex. Phony “dominance” becomes a proxy for actual social confidence. Likewise with the need to know an exact number or to examine women for “slut tells.” They can’t accurately judge character without quantifying it. They want rules for human relationships that are as immutible as the laws of physics.

    It’s all rather (Forgive me, GM.) spergy. There’s often something off socially that probably really is related to STEM skills and/or being somewhere on the spectrum or damn close. Hence the attraction to “game” as a short course in remedial social skills.”

    - I’m not seeing that in old STEM men or women, like 70 and above. Nor do I see it in foreign STEMMERs but I see it here.

    I also see guys who have issues going into some sort of lower level STEM but now being able to cut it because of “alien abductions” and “chip implantations” that cause them to go crazy on the job and get fired.

    So STEM is currently attracting crazy guys.

  • Jayn Rand

    “A foot massage request. Not my thing.”

    Well the ideal is not to have to request it in the first place. He just does it when its obvious I need it. Failing that, happily complying with a polite request is the next best thing.

  • JP

    “I also see guys who have issues going into some sort of lower level STEM but now being able to cut it because of “alien abductions” and “chip implantations” that cause them to go crazy on the job and get fired.”

    Anti-psychotics can sometimes fix this particular problem, being that it’s a medical condition.

  • JP

    Whoever heard of a foot massage? Seriously.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Anti-psychotics can sometimes fix this particular problem, being that it’s a medical condition.”

    They make them gain 100 pounds and get ticks. They can also make them go crazier. Suicide is also a side effect.

    Between Big Mattress (convincing Americans everyone in the family needs their own bed) and Big Pharma, I’ll be poolside with a virgin Pina Colada “enjoying the decline”.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    Given that the mean N is 6, someone whose N = 1 and is married is just as much an outlier as myself. The “ideal” is probably somewhere in the middle.

    No, the median for married men is 4. If the “ideal” is in the middle, and I’m not sure that it is, then the median would be where it’s at. About 25% of married men report N = 1. Only 5% of married men report N > 30. Sorry, this kind of thing isn’t a normal distribution…

  • Jesse

    That’s awful. Once, when my youngest was 11, we woke him. He began banging on the door, demanding to know what we were doing. DH told him I was having a nightmare, but he figured it out.

    I never heard anything from my parents growing up. Actually I was unsure as to whether they even had sex until maybe a couple years ago. Now I all but know they do, partly because they can be more relaxed and don’t need to avoid the topic of sex, whether it arises in discussion or humor.

    As for strange noises, I once heard them at night, but it was very quiet. I’ve since tried to erase it from my mind, thought I haven’t been completely successful. It doesn’t really matter, though. The idea of it doesn’t gross me out. I hope they enjoy themselves. I’m capable of recognizing them as a couple, and not merely mommy and daddy.

    I try to be quite respectful about it, though. I certainly don’t pry or push anything to make them uncomfortable. I’m of the philosophy that their marriage is not my business, their money is not my money, et cetera.

    I did make queries about sex from time to time as a youngster, though, and I’ve come to greatly appreciate the way my father handled it. If for whatever reason he didn’t want to answer my question, he would say “don’t worry about it” or maybe “we’ll talk about it when you’re older.”

    He used that line – “don’t worry about it” in many different situations, when I might ask an innocuous question about something that he’d rather not answer. What I appreciate about it is the fact that he didn’t lie. He never made up a bullshit story. As far as I know he has never, ever lied to me, and that contributes to the high estimation I have of him as a man.

    To my mind there is a huge, huge gap between declining to answer a question and lying. In the former case you maintain your honesty, while in the latter you compromise your integrity and show a disregard for the other person as well.

    I sometime fantasize about marrying a woman and lying to her not once over the course of our entire marriage. I’ve no idea whether that’s silly or not. I absolutely crave forthrightness in a partner, though.

  • Anacaona

    My issues with the methods that a lot of the married posters advocate is much the same way the athletes who were successful at their particular sport don’t necessarily make good coaches.
    I don’t make a good coach because no one listens to my advice. I tailored advice for 5 of my single friends and they are all “???!!!” One of them fell for single motherhood already. Life is a bitch when you care :(

    Given that the mean N is 6, someone whose N = 1 and is married is just as much an outlier as myself. The “ideal” is probably somewhere in the middle.
    In your particular case you will need to find a man with a similar wiring and high number that managed to get and stay happily married. Is not that our methods don’t work is that in your case you keep looking at our marriage as something you don’t want for yourself. Nothing wrong with that but an outlier marriage is harder to create we are giving the wrong advice.
    You are just the wrong audience for it.
    You will need to believe in marriage more than in air for you to make the changes necessary to achieve what we have. Nothing wrong if is too much effort for the result from your POV but I gather a lot of people visiting HUS are actually taking notes, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    Sorry I meant we are giving the right advice. You are just the wrong audience for it.

  • FeralEmployee

    It’s getting kind of annoying picking out the worthwhile comments from this thread (i.e. skimming over all the garbage PJ spouts).

    Wall-Text-E needs to rethink her life.

  • Maggie

    “I have mixed feelings about parents with kids in the house having sex. It definitely should not be regular. .. . . Get it out of your system and then return to celibacy for the next 3 months.

    Right. I’ll tell my husband we should now practice celibacy. I’ll have more time to micro-manage the kids and he’ll have more time to work and make money. No doubt our enforced sexual frustration will make us grow closer together.

  • Vitor

    Do you recall wondering how males have been feminized by society? This is it – we have robbed males of the opportunities to experience and demonstrate masculinity by encountering and conquering sharp edges.

    I think you’re one of a disappearing breed – the benevolent alpha. The greatest fear of many men today is not getting enough sex. We’re complacent, lazy, spoiled brats.

    Whenever I hear women complaining about men, I wonder how much good to society and themselves women (or at least those weirdo feminists) could have done if they had chosen to fix themselves instead of trying to fix men. For the sake of mankind goodness there could be a pact between the genders to always strive to fix themselves and not the other.

  • J

    I have mixed feelings about parents with kids in the house having sex. It definitely should not be regular. Every 2 or 3 months have the grandparents watch them for the weekend and check into a resort. Get it out of your system and then return to celibacy for the next 3 months.

    Oh, Peej, you crack me up.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What is the basis for your firm belief that the Restaraunt Metaphor is incorrect?

    I believe you are developing the heuristic of “the manosphere is wrong about everything.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ADBG

      I believe you are developing the heuristic of “the manosphere is wrong about everything.”

      I would advise anyone to seriously test every sphere concept they encounter. I have personally and unwittingly accepted many as truth, only to be forced to change my position later.

      There is a grain of truth to most of it – let’s call that the red pill. What the manosphere has swallowed is the red bowling ball.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’ve already said I think the restaurant metaphor is a manosphere myth that’s been generalized to the whole married population without basis.”

    Why?

    In my life, I’ve never encountered a woman complaining about her SO/husband being an asshole. I have encountered some who complain that their partner is too nice (beta).

    ——————————-

    On a similar note, the restaurant decision is merely one of many examples that create situations where not choosing (even if one doesn’t give a flying fuck) results in loss of attraction.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In my life, I’ve never encountered a woman complaining about her SO/husband being an asshole. I have encountered some who complain that their partner is too nice (beta).

      Yes, one can be too nice, and the solution to that is not issuing edicts about restaurants. The solution is to develop self-respect and not prostrate yourself to women.

      Look, people are free to think what they want. I am not invested in this debate. Personally, I don’t lose attraction for my husband if I choose the restaurant. I would lose attraction if he was unable to express a single preference without direction from me.

      I have heard young women complain about both types of men. Among the happily married people I know, all the men are betas. Of the divorces I know, all the men are either alphas or gay.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You’ve never encountered a woman calling her SO an asshole?
    Wow, I hear that a lot… :P
    In general, though, that most men can manage a problem to the point where it does not break-up a marriage, does not mean the dynamic does not exist. For example, that hypogamous marriages exist does not mean women do not prefer higher status partners. That SMV 3s pair up with SMV 3s does not mean that looks do not matter.
    That most men are able to provide enough leadership to make a marriage work does not mean that male leadership is unimportant or that the restaraunt metaphor is irrelevant.
    I can agree with Wave here, relationship works better when I take the lead. I suspect my GF requires a bit more male leadership than the average girl, though, or at least comforting and security before she feels able to take her own steps.
    My operational belief is that male leadership is a must in most relationships and ignore this at your peril. I wouldn’t call it a “firm” belief. Open to new details and new beliefs. However, I must operate on the basis of SOMETHING, so I operate on the basis of THAT.
    Specifically, a Captain-First Officer model.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For example, that hypogamous marriages exist does not mean women do not prefer higher status partners.

      So what does it mean that there are more hypogamous than hypergamous marriages among the educated?

      My operational belief is that male leadership is a must in most relationships and ignore this at your peril.

      Agreed. Choosing restaurants does not equal male leadership.

      Here’s an interesting example of male dominance I heard last night from a young woman:

      “James says we can get a dog next summer.”

      James and this woman are dating. James is clearly setting the timeline for commitment, both to her and to mutual ownership of a dog, but he is also signaling that the relationship is very serious. She wants it. He decides.

      Not whether they go to Olive Garden or Applebee’s.

  • Richard Aubrey

    lokland

    “”On a similar note, the restaurant decision is merely one of many examples that create situations where not choosing (even if one doesn’t give a flying fuck) results in loss of attraction.””

    Precisely. What is the profit in pretending it’s not a metaphor, not an example of many, but as if it only refers to a place to eat? And, of those situations, how many actually have any real importance?

    If you search the web for items like “masculine dominance”, you may find a thread on HUS in early May of last year. I think the title is something like emotional prudery or similar. Upshot is different from this thread’s views.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you search the web for items like “masculine dominance”, you may find a thread on HUS in early May of last year. I think the title is something like emotional prudery or similar. Upshot is different from this thread’s views.

      No, it’s the same. We’ve all agree that Benevolent Male Dominance is attractive to women. What’s silly is the reliance on this particular example, which doesn’t apply to most relationships here – and I recall that specifically from the earlier discussion.

      Just find another metaphor that actually makes some sense to the women here.

  • mr. wavevector

    On a similar note, the restaurant decision is merely one of many examples that create situations where not choosing (even if one doesn’t give a flying fuck) results in loss of attraction.

    There are two elements to the restaurant issue. First, the man who has a plan, makes a decision, and executes on it shows value above the man who doesn’t, even if that plan is just a restaurant date. Second, he can demonstrate that he understands and responds to the woman’s tastes and interests.

    In addition to being attraction cues, these things raise the social value of a woman. I’ve overheard my wife subtly bragging to her friends about the “date nights” I’ve taken her on. My demonstration of initiative and understanding raises her value in her social group. She’s got a high value man who is responsive to her. Not all her peers do.

  • Escoffier

    “I would advise anyone to seriously test every sphere concept they encounter.”

    This can be dangerous, so I would modify it a bit.

    But to remain OT, I have tested the restaurant theory on my spouse. It “works.” Now, our marriage is fine and always has been so it’s not like it saved me from impending doom or anything. But I notice that she responds to it very well, on a seemingly subconcious level. Sometimes she will say “I don’t want to go there” for whatever reason, and we don’t. Then I just pick another place. But she seems to prefer when the decision is made by me and she has a veto (which is exercised maybe 20% of the time).

    I’ve actually tested a number of game concepts on her and they all “work.” And this is a highly rational woman, so rational–almost like a houyhnhnm–that a typical spherite would insist that she could not possibly exist.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve actually tested a number of game concepts on her and they all “work.”

      Game concepts do work. The sphere has bastardized Game to such a degree that Mystery et al would not recognize it, and presumably would be horrified by it. There were always nefarious elements in the PUA scene, and they dominate the manosphere, which is populated by sociopaths.

      BTW, I think people should do what works for them. You married to someone who likes a bit of dread with her coffee? Go for it, and good luck!

  • Escoffier

    I’ve never read Mystery Method but I gather it is all about pickup. Right? the subtitle is something like “how to get a woman into bed in 7 hours or less after meeting her.” Well, that does not apply to me at all. Nor to marriages or LTRs. So I am not sure why Mystery would be “good game” and the blogs “bad game.”

    In any event, I have taken what I think might be relevant for marriage and applied it and so far it all “works.” I am not going out trying it on others because … well, for a lot of reasons, including that I am too square and I don’t want to get divorced.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Game is all about pickup. Roissy took MM and took it to a new level, one suitable only for STRs. Athol Kay is the primary blogger who writes for LTRs/marriage. That is his primary contribution, actually – though he has gone in a more general “law of attraction” direction (not sexual attraction) with his new book.

      Bad game comes from bad ethics. I’m sure you don’t use those. :)

      I am too square and I don’t want to get divorced.

      Nice job of “knowing thyself.”

  • Anacaona

    Wall-Text-E needs to rethink her life.
    If she had a life she wouldn’t be spamming HUS to heavens above.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “James says we can get a dog next summer.”

    Sounds to me like James gets to make the decision. Might as well say “Daddy says I can have a dog.” Or “Daddy says I can’t have a dog.” Whichever, it’s up to James/Daddy.
    So what would we have if James said he doesn’t want a dog? Would that be laudable benevolent dominance?
    Nope. Only when she gets what she wants. He’s allowing her to allow him to allow her to get what she wants. Or she’s allowing him to allow her to get what she wants. Doesn’t this strike anybody as kind of a dumb game?

  • Vitor

    What the manosphere has swallowed is the red bowling ball.

    :-D I guess it also has to do with the fact that men are having a hard time dealing with so much conflicting information, as they (we) tend to be logical and go from one extreme to another. First they were feminized and told to be kind, gentle, etc. Now they are told to man up and be dominant, etc. No wonder the red pill gets to a red bowling ball. I find this review for this book, purportedly written by a modern feminist, sums it up very well:

    By the end of this book, I felt pity for the often maligned American males who will read this book. It encourages them first: Be a man! Take your woman! Be a Viking in the sack! Then it quickly reminds them: Oh, get permission first and find out at what level of manly man she wants you to be. Not that asking ahead of time if your partner wants to rough it up isn’t a good idea! If a man read this without any prompting from their significant other and decided to act on it, it could result in a very ugly evening and possibly legal action.

    This woman who wrote this review strikes me as being a benevolently feminine, compassionate woman. :)

  • Anacaona

    Men are waking up to the issues in the SMP! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=99swvqcCLb0

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      That’s Booth Jonathan from Girls! (Jorma Taccone – love him.)

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “You’ve never encountered a woman calling her SO an asshole?”

    Clarification.
    I’ve never encountered a woman calling her SO an asshole where the results were not good for him.

    Typically resulting in better sex.

    I will say the same has applied to me in all situations. Being called an asshole has always predated kinky, porn star like sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I will say the same has applied to me in all situations. Being called an asshole has always predated kinky, porn star like sex.

      Then your winning strategy is clearly to act like an asshole. Next.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “So what does it mean that there are more hypogamous than hypergamous marriages among the educated?”

    That there are more educated women than men and that having children at all is of more importance than having children in a hypergamous marriage only,

  • Lokland

    @Esc/Susan

    I am similar to Esc.
    I’ve tested pretty much every game concept that comes across (most of them long past) and they all work to one degree or another.

    I think the idea that one can become subconsciously more attracted to ones spouse based on a spouses actions is a very bad thing.

    Its like me becoming more attracted to a woman after she loses weight.

    In both cases the spouse changing their behavior was failing to provide maximal attraction prior to that behavior.

    Which is problematic if one cannot keep that up continuously.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Which is problematic if one cannot keep that up continuously.

      There’s the rub. You like a girl who wants all asshole all the time? Then you’ll have to spend a lifetime acting like one. It could be a problem if you not actually a sociopath.

  • mr. wavevector

    So what would we have if James said he doesn’t want a dog? Would that be laudable benevolent dominance?
    Nope. Only when she gets what she wants.

    Not true. It can be even more effective if she doesn’t get what she wants.

    Back in the 80′s I was very patriotic. The U.S. was having trade disputes with Japan the way we are with China today and I had negative sentiments towards buying Japanese products.

    One day I overheard my serious girlfriend tell some of her female friends “I kind of want to buy a Japanese car but my boyfriend won’t let me.” Now I had never said she shouldn’t buy a Japanese car and certainly hadn’t tried to stop her, so I was a bit concerned that this statement made me sound like a controlling asshole. The funny thing was the way she said it – quite happily, even a bit proud. In retrospect I see it was a kind of humble brag – “I take my boyfriend’s opinion as my own which shows I’m in a really serious relationship.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In retrospect I see it was a kind of humble brag – “I take my boyfriend’s opinion as my own which shows I’m in a really serious relationship.”

      That’s exactly how I think she would have said, “James says we can’t get a dog yet.” Her purpose is served regardless what James decides. The point is that James decides.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “There’s the rub. You like a girl who wants all asshole all the time? Then you’ll have to spend a lifetime acting like one. It could be a problem if you not actually a sociopath.”

    Stop being intentionally dense.
    There is a massive difference between basic game and acting like a sociopath.

    Game is effective to some degree on most (all) women.
    It is not a requirement for there to be a relationship BUT it makes the relationship better when it is applied.

    No where does that imply sociopathy or caddish behavior.
    However, it does imply that if one cannot continuously keep up game behavior (not assholishness) then one is failing to provide optimal experience for their spouse.

    Which is bad… very, very bad.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However, it does imply that if one cannot continuously keep up game behavior (not assholishness) then one is failing to provide optimal experience for their spouse.

      Which is bad… very, very bad.

      The idea is to fake it till you make it, right? It’s a self-development process, you can’t act a role for the rest of your life. I don’t see why it would be so hard to exert a bit more dominance and leadership after swallowing the red pill. If it’s about deprogramming, just learning the truth should be sufficient, no?

  • Hope

    For what it’s worth, my husband and I make important decisions together. It’s never “my husband says I can do X.” It has been, “we discussed it, weighed the pros and cons and did X together.” In that regard we are mutually respectful of each other.

    This applies to restaurants, big purchases, having kids, etc. The other day we talked at length about the decision to have another baby, the timing of it, the risks and other future considerations, and we both came to a satisfactory conclusion for us, which was not unilateral but carefully considered and discussed.

    The times when my husband shows “leadership” and “dominance” are when we’re out in public with other people, and he speaks for me because he’s more social and projects more confidence, but the decision had usually been reached prior to that between us in private. If not, then we often go off together to quickly go over it. My husband values my opinions and insights, and he has come to see that I do my research and background checks, which often helps the decision-making process.

    In other words, we have the captain and first officer model going on, and I have more veto power, while he has more executive power.

  • Richard Aubrey

    That’s exactly how I think she would have said, “James says we can’t get a dog yet.” Her purpose is served regardless what James decides. The point is that James decides

    Mercy. Well, irrespective of who finessed whom into thinking what, it would seem, I don’t know, adult to say to others, “We’re going to get a dog next summer.”

    “I take my boyfriend’s opinion as my own….” Choke. How about, “My boyfriend and I are pretty serious about the trade thing and he made some good points.”? Leaves her some autonomy–even if she doesn’t want autonomy for some sickening reason–at least in public. He still looks good. The way the decision is reached is nobody else’s business.

    I use the restaurant thing for two reasons: I had found it frequently in other venues used the way I use it, although mostly from the other pov, and figured either it was already a metaphor or a number of women were really, really serious about restaurants and being told what to do about them. Seemed reasonable to use it here.
    The other reason is that, as an example, it’s one of those things most guys don’t care about but, apparently, are supposed to pretend. Which makes the whole thing dumb.
    So the guys are supposed to show leadership about going to a restaurant, and that gets them tingle credits. If they don’t, they lose tingle credits.

    Okay. New metaphor coming up. Got to think of something which isn’t very important about which guys are supposed to pretend in order to get tingle points. Shouldn’t be hard.
    What is hard is to picture women–H. Sap–reacting to this charade. H. Sap. Eeesh.

  • BP Oil Spill

    So Susan is promoting “Benevolent Patriarchy” now?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So Susan is promoting “Benevolent Patriarchy” now?

      I don’t know what that means, but I don’t think so!

      Dominance /= patriarchy.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “There is a grain of truth to most of it – let’s call that the red pill. What the manosphere has swallowed is the red bowling ball.”

    And now you understand why cults work.

    There’s also always a grain of truth at the center of the best cons.

    In fact, true financial bubbles *require* a certain amount of truth.

  • Anacaona

    For what it’s worth, my husband and I make important decisions together. It’s never “my husband says I can do X.” It has been, “we discussed it, weighed the pros and cons and did X together.” In that regard we are mutually respectful of each other.
    Likewise. We both hate making choices so if he makes the choice I’m happy because I dodged a bullet and he is happy because he did something he knows I find unpleasant. When I make the choice I’m happy because I made something that makes him happy and he is happy because he dodged a bullet. I can’t imagine losing attraction for that making choices is annoying I don’t blame him for not wanting to do so and I would feel like crap if I forced him to do it all the time knowing he doesn’t like it, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    I would not call where to go out to eat a big decision.

    Having a baby … yeah. That was truly a collaboration (in more ways than one).

    I guess we don’t make a lot of big decisions any more, our lives are on auto pilot. We have duties to fulfill and we do them, that’s it. The last time we bought a car was six years ago and she was the driving force behind that. She wanted it, I didn’t care. She did all the research and all the work in buying it. All I had to do was earn the money. Beta I guess but she’s still here …

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She wanted it, I didn’t care. She did all the research and all the work in buying it. All I had to do was earn the money. Beta I guess but she’s still here …

      And she puts on her own snow chains!

  • Hope

    Here is an easy solution to the restaurant dilemma, which my husband does. He has two or three default places he likes and enjoys, and whenever I can’t think of something else or don’t have a good deal to someplace, it will be one of the defaults.

  • Creme de la Creme

    “There is a grain of truth to most of it – let’s call that the red pill. What the manosphere has swallowed is the red bowling ball.”

    “And now you understand why cults work.”

    See here;
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/understanding-ayn-randianism/

  • JP

    Ayn Randiaism was an anti-religion of Communism.

    She basically took Communism and inverted it.

    Kind of like Satanists performing a Black Mass.

    Where you take the Catholic Mass and invert it.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Here is an easy solution to the restaurant dilemma, which my husband does. He has two or three default places he likes and enjoys, and whenever I can’t think of something else or don’t have a good deal to someplace, it will be one of the defaults.

    Hope.
    We don’t have a dilemma about where to go. We have a question about whether the guy should be the one in charge about where, or else he loses tingle points.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . We have a question about whether the guy should be the one in charge about where, or else he loses tingle points.

      Don’t you have any personal experience you can draw on to answer this question?

  • JP

    “I guess we don’t make a lot of big decisions any more, our lives are on auto pilot. We have duties to fulfill and we do them, that’s it. The last time we bought a car was six years ago and she was the driving force behind that. She wanted it, I didn’t care. She did all the research and all the work in buying it. All I had to do was earn the money.”

    The last car that “we” bought was at the time we were married.

    Since she was the only one with money, she bought it.

    I haven’t personally owned a car for years.

    Come to think of it, I’ve never purchased a car.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    For what it’s worth, my husband and I make important decisions together. It’s never “my husband says I can do X.” It has been, “we discussed it, weighed the pros and cons and did X together.” In that regard we are mutually respectful of each other.

    As do we. I never dictate. That said, my wife is deferential to my opinion more often than not, but she is certainly capable of asserting her opinion when she feels the need.

    Mutual respect is the most important aspect of equality in a relationship, regardless of who takes the lead or makes the decision.

  • mr. wavevector

    “I take my boyfriend’s opinion as my own….” Choke. How about, “My boyfriend and I are pretty serious about the trade thing and he made some good points.”?

    I have been surprised more than once by the submissive behavior of women I’ve dated because I neither asked for or expected it. Some people are just submissive by nature. They really want someone they can be submissive to in a loving and safe relationship. This woman was an example of that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Some people are just submissive by nature. They really want someone they can be submissive to in a loving and safe relationship. This woman was an example of that.

      Exactly, people vary. Each one of us needs to find a mate whose dominance matches our desire for it, and vice versa. You’re falling into the AWALT trap. It ain’t so.

  • Doublespeak

    JP,
    “Ayn Randiaism was an anti-religion of Communism.
    She basically took Communism and inverted it.”

    - Well, she was thought to be a double agent at the time.

    MM July 8, 2013 at 2:23 am

    “Objectivists don’t even like agnosticism:
    Ouch again. That leaves very few people on Planet Earth who “think the right way”.

    - Ahhh, the “right way”…

    “Comrades,
    none of us wishes to be or can be right against the party. In
    the last instance the party is always right, because it is the
    only historic instrument which the working class possesses,
    for the solution of its fundamental tasks…. One can be right
    only with the party and through the party because history has
    not created any other way for realization of one’s rightness.”

    - Trotsky, in a speech at the 1924 Congress of the Soviet
    Communist Party:

    :)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    I do like your idea of having the options prepared. It’s a strategy I use myself, and VERY extensively. Not only do I have the names of 6 restaraunts that we have not yet been to in my back pocket, all in close reach, there sits on my desk an entire binder full of fun activities for the summer, not just for the GF, but for the entire social group.
    On my google drive are a number of yet-to-be-used games of my own creation, twists on board games or whatever and sex games.

    Train as you fight, fight as you train, and the best time to plan is BEFORE the enemy show ups. True, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, but it’s good to have thought some of the things through and have some contigency BEFORE all hell breaks loose.

    The plans are there and they can be executed as simply as calling out “Code Blue!” In fact, that is the design. I cannot naturally provide an “optimal” experience and winging it or going with the flow is sub-optimal.

    Thankfully I have some introspection so I know what my weaknesses are and I have a viable Red-Pill framework to understand how the world is working.

    This does require work, and it will probably require SOME measure of work and effort for the remainder of my days.

    Many of the Game concepts require it and are exhausting over time, like BB’s social chameleon. That’s fine, we make adjustments as needed, much like introverts need to sometimes put themselves in a draining social situation.

  • JP

    “The idea is to fake it till you make it, right? It’s a self-development process, you can’t act a role for the rest of your life. I don’t see why it would be so hard to exert a bit more dominance and leadership after swallowing the red pill. If it’s about deprogramming, just learning the truth should be sufficient, no?”

    It’s simply the basic formation of a habit.

    Do it for 30 to 60 days and it should stick and become automatic until you need to change it, at which point you will need another 30 to 60 days to fix the habit.

  • Vitor

    If it’s about deprogramming, just learning the truth should be sufficient, no?

    I think it’s more about deconditioning. Think of a coil or flexible iron bar. It’s necessary to go to the other extreme before reaching a balance, if positive environmental stimuli are absent to ensure a natural equilibrium.

  • mr. wavevector

    You’re falling into the AWALT trap. It ain’t so.

    There’s been no AWALT from me, Susan. I’ve been careful to limit the scope of my remarks to the particular women I’ve known, and to use qualifiers like “some people” when generalizing beyond that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wavevector

      There’s been no AWALT from me, Susan. I’ve been careful to limit the scope of my remarks to the particular women I’ve known, and to use qualifiers like “some people” when generalizing beyond that.

      Shoot, my mistake, I was actually addressing Richard Aubrey. You have indeed been thoughtful and careful in your commentary – which I appreciate! You have a gift – you can disagree quite amiably, and you’re also good at finding whatever common ground exists between people.

  • Hope

    ADBG, I have some conversation topics prepared as well for social situations, because I’m rather introverted and often revert to silently watching instead of participation. I also like to present topics of interest to my husband in some attempts to “impress” him, or at least make him more interested in talking with me.

    Our Ni (introverted intuition) is prominent, so we often live in our heads. There are frequently times that we’re eating out at a restaurant but eat in silence not talking about anything — not because anything is wrong, but because we don’t like to engage in pointless banter.

    As for activities, we are the types to not care what we’re doing, as long as we’re doing it with good people. Often we just go out for grocery shopping and walk around the store a bit, and that satisfies our need to “get out.” We both get exhausted by the thought of actually doing things that other people do for fun.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW

    I would advise anyone to seriously test every sphere concept they encounter.

    No specific blog in mind, but I’d be extremely reluctant to trust any alleged source of authority that relies exclusively on anecdotes, stereotypes, and cherry-picked research.

    Particularly when past errors have gone uncorrected, or totally unaddressed. IMO that’s a credibility gap on par with the President’s. :shock:

  • Richard Aubrey

    wv
    “They really want someone they can be submissive to in a loving and safe relationship. This woman was an example of that.”

    Yuck. A million years of evolution and ten thousand years of civilization, give or take 9500 years, and this is what we get?

    Susan. WRT personal experience: I do not take charge, do not make things happen unless I care very much–which I hardly ever do–or the situation is extremely serious. Since I hardly ever care, pretty much anybody cares more than I do and they may as well have things go their way. No skin off my nose. I’ll be watching things, an old habit which keeps me from being engaged in whatever it is anyway. And since we live in a world shorn of sharp edges, mostly, the extremely serious hardly ever happens. And I’ve been married to a double Greek–Alpha Gamma Delta/Phi Beta Kappa for more than forty years.
    However, as I mentioned some way upthread, there was a time in a field project in a nasty area where I took charge because things were getting really close to being dangerous. In one case for sure there were several women involved and in another case I think so but can’t recall. This was in the Sixties, so memories fade. Or get mixed up. But the stories got around the group, anyway, so everybody knew about it. Part of the thing was me being able to fight off the bad guys who, as it happened, didn’t want to mess with a mesomorph. So nothing physical happened, barely.
    Okay.
    Following which, I figured out maybe thirty years later, I got a bunch of IOI, which I missed. Had no clue.
    If I got an IOI for taking charge of, say, which movie we’re going to, I’d take the lady home and look for someone with a forebrain. Whom I found.
    Example: We live out in the country, the driveway about eighty yards long. Sort of see the road through the trees. About midnight in January, looking out the window at the blizzard. Saw a car stationary with its flashers going.
    Woke up my wife and told her we were about to take in a family of five with the wife in labor with twins. That’s the way it goes in the movies.
    Got my coat and a flashlight and went to the road. Guy sitting there, completely unstuck in the snow. Middle of the road. Asked if I’d come down because of him. Dumb question. He said he was on a test drive and didn’t want to get rear-ended. Sure you’re okay? Yup. He said good night and drove off. I figure he was checking us out, but went someplace else because the neighborhood watch in our town never sleeps.
    My wife gave me the IOI I couldn’t miss a long time ago–can’t recall what it was–because of the kind of guy I am. Not that I’m terrific or anything, but that she thought we matched, or however that goes. I don’t get any more tingle points for doing something like checking out this clown in the road. I get them because she likes the kind of guy I am. One of the things I am is the kind of guy who checks out clowns in the road in a blizzard.
    As it happens, discussing this with a couple of guys in the area to talk about possible trouble, one said, “Wow” and the other said “tip my hat”.
    But not a big deal. My adrenalin gland doesn’t work like most, and I have a limited imagination. Been lucky so far.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      I don’t get any more tingle points for doing something like checking out this clown in the road. I get them because she likes the kind of guy I am. One of the things I am is the kind of guy who checks out clowns in the road in a blizzard.

      It sounds like your wife is secure in her original assessment of your strength, reliability and commitment to family. It’s not about tingles, it’s a marriage that works. If you cowered at the bedroom window, peeking out from behind a curtain and whimpering, she’d call a doctor because you wouldn’t be the man she married.

      Sounds like it’s all good.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hope,

    I do my best to have some topics on hand to discuss, too. If I rely on whatever naturally comes to mind, well, that’s how we end up talking about nuclear sharing agreements ;)

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Richard,

    Yuck. A million years of evolution and ten thousand years of civilization, give or take 9500 years, and this is what we get?

    I can understand you might find dominant/submissive exchanges distasteful, but I don’t understand your remark on evolution. Most of our primate relatives show pronounced dominance hierarchies. Why should human primates be different?

    Over the last century we’ve been cultivating the fantasy that “we’re not like that” – that we are pure cultural beings who can be reprogrammed according to the principles of progressive social justice. But it’s not true. We are like that, and dominant / submissive dynamics are a big part of most people’s sexual response.

  • Richard Aubrey

    WV
    It’s just that I’m disappointed.
    We have this hypothetical girl who’s pretty much bragging she’s swapped out her brain for a boyfriend’s-thoughts receiver.
    H. Sap should be better than that. And so should her boyfriend, which is to say run away and shower thoroughly.
    OTOH, since she’s hypothetical, maybe it didn’t/won’t really happen.
    Can hope.

  • Hope

    ADBG, what topics do you prepare? I honestly have a hard time with small talk because I read various things and have so much floating around in my head at any given time, and the things I give weight to (like the NSA stuff) is just not something most people want to talk about, at least most mixed casual groups. I default back to safe topics like houses, kids, work, and food.

  • linkedout

    True that.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Hope.
    It’s called “small talk” for a reason. It could be said you have a duty to know when to deploy it. Among other things, you don’t get to impose your concerns on others in casual social situations. This is hard to get across to rabid sports fans, admittedly. It’s supposed to be small, though. Until you assess the situation and decide to do otherwise.
    But it helps to know this and that, and you never know when something might be useful. Example. Looking up a poem by Kipling–Sons of Martha–the first hit I got was somebody referring to it being used as the text when he was Called to be an Engineer. Caps included. Followed with a discussion of the Order of The Iron Ring. So, ran into an engineer at a dinner. Asked about it. Turns out he’s a prof and Calls his students as they graduate. Got twenty minutes of conversation going without me saying another word. Trivia. No such thing as too much trivia in the ready locker.
    Old story about some highest-class woman in mid or late nineteenth century Britain. She said, after twenty minutes with Lord so and so, I felt he was the most interesting person in the room. After twenty minutes with Lord Such and Such, I felt I was the most interesting person in the room. You don’t get there by telling people stuff and insisting on talking about your thing. You ask questions and follow up.
    There was an obit in the Telegraph–Brit paper–which referred to a guy who had been a friend of the great and near-great. He was valued as a guest. His secret, apparently, was “wit without malice and gossip without betrayal”. IOW, small talk.
    But you don’t go from the weather to how AGW is a scam. If you’re at a function somebody else put together, that sort of thing is a disservice to your host.
    My wife used to teach at a university. The social functions were, for somebody with a lick of sense–I almost qualify–a target-rich environment. I got a lot of credit for staying social. Some prof, three sheets to the wind, staggered up to me and said, “Read Kierkegaard. You’ll thank me.” I asked him what he thought of the new expressway connector. He went on for ten minutes. Thinks I’m a great guy.

  • Anacaona

    @Hope
    My FIL and I read the headlines of the magazines in the checkout lines. They are usually full of current info that most people consider safe to discuss in mixed company. I noticed that since in America is taboo to talk bad about groups of people celebrities had become the safe targets of frustration and judgement. You can bitch about the Kardashians all you want as long as you don’t identify them in gender or race. Weird but its what it is.
    I would also recommend a email subscription to Gossip Cop too. It reports most news, tv shows, new movies trailers and so on. People will be impressed when you tell them that the latest rumors are fake. ;)

  • Anacaona

    @Hope
    Oh in case you follow my advice. I FORBID YOU TO BUY ANY GOSSIP MAGAZINE EVER! It will be like paying PJ to come and troll HUS. They are the lesser of two evils, until legit journalism start to become important again.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Anacoana.
    You can bitch about the Kardashians. But don’t bitch about the people who know how many Kardashians there are, or could tell them apart. ’cause that group is 52% of the electorate.

  • mr. wavevector

    Susan,

    Article for you, not too far off topic:

    Men and Women Often Expect Different Things When They Move In Together

    A new study suggests that men are more likely than women to be not “completely committed” to their partners.

    W. BRADFORD WILCOX

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mr. wv

      Thanks for the heads up on the Atlantic article – will post about it tomorrow!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Anacaona, don’t worry I have no intention of buying gossip magazines. But this is why I used to have mostly nerdy male friends. If I’m going to be talking about celebrities, I like to talk about what they represent (i.e. a visible nobility class), the possibility of “elites” using the mass media to disseminate information (i.e. war movies, consumption habits, delaying family formation), etc.

    Richard Aubrey, I also usually listen to people in social situations instead of talk. I’m always told that I’m “quiet” and “nice,” because I don’t impose my weirdness on other people. I do ask questions and get people talking, but I also am around a lot of other introverts. That’s where things get tricky, when both people are listening…

  • Richard Aubrey

    Hope. You must be selecting, consciously or not, for introverts. I’ve never found a group–heard about nuns with a vow of silence but never met any–that didn’t have at least a third who loved to talk.
    It isn’t listening by itself. It’s getting something started and letting the other person do the work, sometimes guiding by follow-up questions.
    WRT the Order of The Iron Ring discussion, I asked if was all engineers or just civil engineers. Can’t remember the answer, but whatever it was, the guy got a fresh wind and kept going.
    Nobility class. Hmph. One of my granddaughters is six. A good friend of hers was visiting and it turns out the two of them are going to “princess camp”, which I think is a way of teaching manners and deportment under false pretenses. Whatever it takes.
    I started talking about princes and princesses having responsibility. Prince William flies rescue helicopters and Prince Harry has gone off to fight the bad guys. Then I tried to explain the Colonel of The Regiment and showed some footage of Kate, who is Colonel of The Irish Guards–William is Colonel of The Rifle Regiment–meeting with the guys back from shitholistan and passing out operational medals.
    Celebrities…. Eff’em. Not worth the oxygen. SCROOM. They make faces and read words other people write. Bravo Foxtrot Delta.

  • Anacaona

    You can bitch about the Kardashians. But don’t bitch about the people who know how many Kardashians there are, or could tell them apart. ’cause that group is 52% of the electorate.
    Heh true that.

    But this is why I used to have mostly nerdy male friends. If I’m going to be talking about celebrities, I like to talk about what they represent (i.e. a visible nobility class), the possibility of “elites” using the mass media to disseminate information (i.e. war movies, consumption habits, delaying family formation), etc
    That is deep talk. I have a few selected friends and blogs for this (HUS included) and I keep my ‘small talk’ up to date for the rest of the population. Both sources of info don’t need to clash and at least I enjoy interacting with people so there is at least some reward for me by learning this. No to mention that you can do a good analysis of how much celebrities influence the masses by gauging their reactions when you talk about them. Maybe you could see it as some sort of social study so it makes it easier? Just an idea.

  • Anacaona

    Celebrities…. Eff’em. Not worth the oxygen. SCROOM. They make faces and read words other people write. Bravo Foxtrot Delta.
    I would say that actors, singers and the like do a job (there are many hours of rehearse and tuning it takes to organize a concert or record a CD add the physical training for dancing and performing) and are usually talented to some extent and the fame comes with it given the nature of media. Reality stars in the other hand they don’t do anything and they are only famous for being famous I do think those are not worth the oxygen, but I think I’m in the minority, being stupid in video seems to attractive for most people, YMMV.

  • Hope

    Richard Aubrey, celebrities are the new rich, not old money. The princes in England come from known bloodlines. They are still public nobility, but they have some old traditions they must follow. In America that is not the case. But there’s old money in America as well. They just keep out of the public eye in general.

    Part of the point of the celebrity culture is to sell products and the idea that anybody could also become rich and famous. There are lots of handlers behind the scenes to create the whole celebrity culture and the individual stars. It’s a huge and complex industry.

    Anacaona, I do actually talk about some of these things with my husband. We do both deep and superficial. The problem is that we like to go from one end to the other, not stay in one place. Most of the time I can’t fill enough small talk time with just the superficial.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Hope. Noblesse Oblige, however much observed in the absence in real nobility, is not expected of celebrities.
    Indeed, straight-arrow celebrities couldn’t sell hot chocolate to Eskimos.
    Yeah. Fifty-plus years ago, I had the lead in Arms and The Man. I get how acting goes. Loved it. Practically was clinically depressed when it was over. Still, it was Shaw, not me, doing the work.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Couple of years ago, my DIL’s best friend came to visit with her kids, making three in all. Plus her niece about eleven and her niece’s friend. The older two were tentative about the big lake, but we got them kayaking okay. I wanted to switch to ax and chainsaw but aunt wimped out. Later in the day, the two were sitting on the deck talking about what they wanted to do in life. I wished they could stay eleven.
    Last weekend, my DIL and now two grandkids visited, along with a friend and their daughter. My granddtrs are twenty months and six years.
    My granddtr’s best friend, also six, showed me a friendship bracelet she’d made for my gdtr (“A”). Later that day, the best friend came to me and looked up with huge, solemn eyes and said, “I have bad news to report. A and I aren’t best friends any more.” Some detail followed. She wanted me to help her work it out. I deferred to the parents, and it worked.
    Sunday, A came from the bathroom with a wad of toilet paper. She’d caught and smushed a bug and wanted to show her mother, my DIL. Mom said, “Oh, A, I’m so impressed.” A said, “I was frightened at first but I knew in my heart God was with me.” Any kid can mouth prayers. The Pope couldn’t get closer to the Deity than A did.
    So, in a couple of years for the eleven year-olds of that visit–they’re now fifteen–and some years more than that for my gdtr and her friend, these girls are going to enter the SMP. Where they will be valued as penis receptacles who had better give it up by the fourth date if a guy can make a fake, lame-ass pretend effort at BSing a “commitment” or “relationship” or be out of the game.
    Who do I punch?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      So, in a couple of years for the eleven year-olds of that visit–they’re now fifteen–and some years more than that for my gdtr and her friend, these girls are going to enter the SMP. Where they will be valued as penis receptacles who had better give it up by the fourth date if a guy can make a fake, lame-ass pretend effort at BSing a “commitment” or “relationship” or be out of the game.
      Who do I punch?

      This is exactly how I felt when I first realized what my daughter, then 16, was up against. The only reason it didn’t happen sooner is that we sent her to an all-girls school.

      I was astounded when her high school bf (a hand-holding fellow from a brother school) ditched her for a girl who invited him to a “CEOs and Office Hos” party and raped him in a spare bedroom.

      I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know how to help, or even what the right conversation was. HUS is the result.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You could advise your grand-daughters not to go swimming with the sharks, and chastise them when they do.

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG.
    Speaking of chastising: Due to assortative mating–DIL and one sis are 6.0″, with hubbies at six and a half. One sis is 5.9″ with a hubby at 6’1″. All are jocks, mostly with contact sports.
    Which is to say the male cousins are off the charts and were from birth. One was ten-thirteen when born. I see some possibilities.
    I do recall, years ago, a young woman bringing a prospect to the family reunion/Fourth of July party. I don’t believe he ever became a missing persons case, but he was no longer in evidence around the young woman in question.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What was wrong with the prospect?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. I can see how you would have been horrified and confused.

    In a more complicated way, I figure it’s rough for boys, too. I mean, they’re expected to be trying to, trying anything, to get into a girl’s pants. The girls aren’t prepared for somebody who might actually really, really like them. Love them. Nope. Selling access for what used to be considered chump change. Hoping something might come of it. Can’t hear what the boys might be saying. Presuming some of the boys are saying it which, given my own history, they may not.

    Back in the day, I missed a bunch of IOI, which I figured out thirty years later, because, for some reason, the idea that a woman besides my mother might like me for my own sweet self simply didn’t exist. I didn’t consider it, dismiss it, go around feeling sorry. The idea simply didn’t exist. I knew I got along fine with women when on non-social business. I knew that when things were unsettled, the percentage of women close to me–speaking geographically–was more than Brownian movement might imply, but that was simple. I was born cuter than the Gerber baby and have pix to prove it, but I went downhill pretty fast. In fact, the guy looking at me from my Army ID card scares even me. But like me for me? Not in my universe. The exceptions seemed to me to be crazy stalkers.
    And I know now what that meant, or at least some of it, including how I hurt a woman, completely without any idea anything was happening.
    And I see that guys in the SMP might well be as clueless in masses as I was uniquely.
    Jesus. Who do I punch?

  • Tasmin

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/fashion/sex-on-campus-she-can-play-that-game-too.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hpw

    Here we go again. The usual blind spots of the narrative remain; hamster feed for all.

    I know there are some Penn folks here so this may be either sweetly nostalgic or stomach turning. Curious to know. Either way, reading about all of those young credential-bound high-achieving ego-centric women with not enough time for anything but dream chasing and carrying the ego torch for their UMC parents well into their 20′s before plugging in the perfect co-pilot for their flight into “success” gave me a total chubby. And I’m sure the PUA crowd can’t hold back their cheshire grins knowing that the floodgates of young hook-up ready women continue to be propped wide open. By men of course.

    My recent foray into the mid 30′s cohort of OkCupid suggests the indoctrination of the driving mindset of these women outlined in the article has long-lasting effects. They still want to Strong-Independent-Woman and Credential their way into (Don’t Settle!) the apex of men without even consideration, let alone realization, that in the long-game of marriage, men have their own desires, wants, and risks to consider and it is men who hold the key to that gate. Not the other way around.

    Just like the story has it backward: it isn’t the women adapting, it is the men adapting. It just so happens that for the apex of men, it is not much of an adaptation as it is a clearing house. And for the balance of men, there is no incentive to enter into price discrimination willingly by upholding a relationship model when the market-makers are setting the price at 0. Women chose to go without relationships because they prefer sex with hot men. It is that simple. So the not-so-hot men chose not to offer relationships because rational men don’t like to overpay, instead they prefer to attempt to adopt the clearing house model, go bust trying, or withdrawal from the market entirely (which further removes competition). The disincentive effect of competing with the apex is something often overlooked/under-appreciated in the SMP; just how demoralizing it is to the bottom half of the market to see that even offering to “pay” more than the apex to get access to sex (and relationships – which men actually want too) is actually counterproductive to that end.

    Just note how the men being hooked up with in the anecdotes are always “hot” but offer few other redeeming qualities (admitted by the women). This is a choice by women to lower the price of sex, decouple relationship/emotion/intimacy from it in order to get sex from the top men as well as “reward” a certain set of “qualities” in men. IOW, they would rather share the top for sex only than have to “settle”.

    And by making sex just sport (so they claim), they can do this without losing face, without the ego or emotional toil of basically playing the submissive in a poly role. While the lower % of men on campus surely plays a role, it starts to feel like that is conveniently bridging over the fact that the apex preference (her choice) is more significant than the incremental male competition that a 50/50 enrollment would present.

    Even at 50/50 incrementally there would still be only marginally more “hot” men to go around. It is the a la carte of sex and the obvious focus on cherry-picking for her immediate benefit, gratification, the preference of sex without threat of compromise, bother, or interference with her trajectory that drives the market. Men are merely playing along. This is why those views carry forward so far into the future where the access to a greater scope of men (population wide) and attention from older men equalizes away the gender gap present on campus, the hookup mentality continues to prevail. It never really burns off because it is still about them, their needs, and preferences and unwillingness to risk any of that for a relationship unless that potential man is apex enough or otherwise underwrites to her time horizon and situational preferences.

    Sure it can be exasperated in places like manhattan but even then you see the preference for sharing the top and the preference for even being in manhattan over subordinating anything, giving any ground to improve their chances in the relationship game. It is still making the market and then complaining about that market. Perhaps it is just the tack of this article that leaves this impression on me, but it is a far from favorable view of the female college mind at work.

    One of the few truths is that indeed the parents are playing a role by overselling – selling straight into the you go grrrll! empowerment Strong-Independent-Woman model without regard for the downsides and risks – both short term and long. I can tell you If there was a big woman on my campus who really made her academic-athletic-social mark in my tenure there, I couldn’t tell you her name. But I do know a lot of SAH or part-time moms from my college who are quite happy with their boring banker/accountant husbands and the lives they have built TOGETHER from age 26. At least half managed to earn advanced degrees along the way too. I know, how strange.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Just note how the men being hooked up with in the anecdotes are always “hot” but offer few other redeeming qualities (admitted by the women). This is a choice by women to lower the price of sex, decouple relationship/emotion/intimacy from it in order to get sex from the top men as well as “reward” a certain set of “qualities” in men. IOW, they would rather share the top for sex only than have to “settle”.

      Honestly, I don’t think no-strings sex with hot men is the driving incentive. At least some of these women prefer to avoid emotional entanglement because it gets in the way of their striving. Achievement comes first – A talked about wanting her name on plaques all over campus. So A is smart, attractive and rich. And a feminist. The guy who provides her with an “oil change” is going to be the best she can get, and the least likely to be clingy. Going for the douchebag, I.e. someone she won’t even have coffee with, is the perfect solution.

      And it’s quite efficient as well. In this scenario everybody wins.

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG.
    What was wrong with the prospect? Ever meet a guy who makes you want to pitch him over the rail without any objective criteria justifying it? Who has a handshake like a slab of warm bacon? Who “teases” the woman in question just a bit too nastily?
    Yeah. Him.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I gotcha Richard. yeah, wouldn’t be too happy about oneof those types around my female friends, either. Though it would be incumbent upon me to chastise said female friend for picking so….poorly.

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG. I figure the women should do the chastising. But you never know. I worked with a woman in college who had an IQ of about 400, has two masters, one for each side of her brain, been big in venture cap, started a successful biz and is an accomplished singer. When i knew her, her physical presentation was about a fifteen on a scale of 1-10, if she was wearing a sack, which she mostly did.
    Found out twenty years later that her intended, of whom I heard but did not meet, had been cheating from the get-go. WHAAAT!. Unbelievable. But, worse, everybody she knew had been telling her to drop him. Nope.
    So sometimes running off the prospect is the only way.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Agreed. People are complicated little animals, compassion is needed, etc.

    Just don’t want that to become a blank slate for letting bad behavior go free. I am well acquainted with people trying to take advantage of my generosity :P

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    RA…”Old story about some highest-class woman in mid or late nineteenth century Britain. She said, after twenty minutes with Lord so and so, I felt he was the most interesting person in the room. After twenty minutes with Lord Such and Such, I felt I was the most interesting person in the room.”

    There’s a similar story about Churchill and David Lloyd George. Ask Churchill about any subject in the universe–balloons, was the example given–and you will get a brilliant lecture about balloons, their past, present, and future. Ask Lloyd George the same question, and he will find out everything you know and think about balloons.

    Lloyd George was at a resort where another guest was an elderly extreme conservative who despised everything DLG stood for, and definitely didn’t want to be introduced to him. He couldn’t avoid it, though, and after a short conversation, DLG had the man eating out of his hand.

  • Richard Aubrey

    David Foster,
    Ref DLG and Churchill. Rather listen to one and talk to the other.
    In fact, that tactic, to be crude, is so effective it ought to be illegal. But it does show that “small talk” is not to be dismissed.
    Coming from a sales convention once. A rising young star left his seat and crouched by the bus driver–we were heading for the airport–and by the time we arrived the young star knew the driver and three generations of his family and could have sold them barbed wire….forget it. Anyway, it was a tour de force and worth watching from my seat.
    Question and “wow!” “How about….?” “How did your Dad….? “No kidding. My Dad did pretty much the same.” Probably made the driver’s week.
    The young star was either practicing or couldn’t help himself.
    Or several other things, but in any event, it was an amazing result of a conversation which was short of the “vertical pronoun”.

  • J

    Honestly, I don’t think no-strings sex with hot men is the driving incentive. At least some of these women prefer to avoid emotional entanglement because it gets in the way of their striving. Achievement comes first – A talked about wanting her name on plaques all over campus. So A is smart, attractive and rich. And a feminist. The guy who provides her with an “oil change” is going to be the best she can get, and the least likely to be clingy. Going for the douchebag, I.e. someone she won’t even have coffee with, is the perfect solution.

    And it’s quite efficient as well. In this scenario everybody wins.

    Define “winning.” I know a couple of sisters who lived out this pattern before it became a pattern. They are the children of a high powered, ultra-liberal pair of high profile lawyers. Very achievement oriented. Went to the best schools and eventually became lawyers themselves. The older sister finally married, in her mid-30s, a divorced man– another lawyer a good 20 years older. Spent years trying to convince him to start a second family with her. In her early forties, she gave birth to a child who looks NOTHING LIKE HER (donor eggs?) The other sister never married.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And it’s quite efficient as well. In this scenario everybody wins.

      Define “winning.”

      Touche. What I meant was, everyone gets what they want. Or what they think they want. Those two sisters pursued their dreams, and then didn’t get what they wanted when their priorities shifted. I suspect that’s going to be true for a lot of these alpha feminists in college. They’re life splitting, and we’ve already discussed why that’s not a good strategy.

      Meanwhile, the women who wanted relationships can find them, among the men who aren’t in the sights of these women who want to fuck without speaking.

  • J

    Re big decisions and major purchases:

    As if to prove that thre are no coincidences, the universe broke my dishwasher around the same time a certain female blgger wrote that her husband was not allowing her to get new dishwasher as a punishment for not handwashing their kitchen knives. I was completely wowed by this.

    When our dishwasher broke, my first assumption was there was a hard water clog. I attemoted to fix that, since I’ve been able to in the past. I failed, waited for DH to come home and asked him to take a look. He couldn’t the problem. We pondered together if it was worth fixing. We agreed it wasn’t. The next night I asked DH to go dishwasher shopping with me. He declined. The following day, I found a discontinued top of the line dishwasher for 50% off. I grabbed it. Told DH over dinner. He complimented me on finding such a good deal. We had some problems with the installation. DH was happy with how I handled them as I wrangled further discounts as compensation. The new dishwasher is whisper quiet. The old one ran like a truck. DH likes the new one better.

    End of story. No stress, no power struggle, nothing to prove.

    I am constatly amazed at how much strum und drang goes into the simplest things for some people. Crazy.

  • Escoffier

    Anybody puts one of my knives in the DW risks getting stabbed with it.

  • J

    Yeah, my husband has the same complaint, actually.

  • JP

    “Ever meet a guy who makes you want to pitch him over the rail without any objective criteria justifying it?”

    Tucker Max?

  • ExNewYorker

    “I suspect that’s going to be true for a lot of these alpha feminists in college. They’re life splitting, and we’ve already discussed why that’s not a good strategy.”

    That’s for certain. The problem is that this “life splitting” isn’t just something relegated to a few alpha females, it’s a spirit that influences the entire female college population. Some opt out, but the message is clear: ” I need to take this time for myself — I’m going to have plenty of time to focus on my husband and kids later,” This was already happening when I was in college in the mid 90′s (and I ran into a lot of these women in college and in the workplace afterwards), and from what my siblings and younger cousins tell me, it’s even more the case now.

    Meanwhile, the women who wanted relationships can find them, among the men who aren’t in the sights of these women who want to fuck without speaking.

    Yes, but in an environment where the female:male ratio exceeds 60:40, a lot of women are going to find that it’ll require taking active steps and won’t just happen out of the blue “later”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      The problem is that this “life splitting” isn’t just something relegated to a few alpha females, it’s a spirit that influences the entire female college population.

      Yes, that’s why its outsized cultural influence is so damaging! We’ve seen articles where women confess they feel lame if they want a relationship – we have let the feminists dictate what women should be doing.

      Yes, but in an environment where the female:male ratio exceeds 60:40, a lot of women are going to find that it’ll require taking active steps and won’t just happen out of the blue “later”.

      Agreed, women cannot afford to be asleep at the wheel on this. They need to be proactive – it’s my contention that so few are that just taking basic steps to not waste your 20s puts you way out in front of the pack.

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