“Does he actively seek ways to be a better man by examining his thoughts, feelings and behavior?”

“Certain” women will never know since “better man” initiatives typically include weeding out those soaked in wanton promiscuous behavior.

.

Quiet, by Susan Cain (a study of tension between a society that pathologizes introversion, and overly celebrates extroversion), changed the way I live, manage and parent. It’s also changed the way I negotiate, and I believe this applies to relationships.

Socially, and professionally, I’ve found it useful to have a set of skills that I term “faux-extroversion”; it’s much easier to initiate a personal dialogue if one does more than hang back, observe and have interior dialogues. It’s much easier to get customers, and it’s much easier to, in the main, to manage staff. (Though I note that my backtest reveals that my most successful staff relationships are with natural introverts with critical thinking skills who have learned to communicate well.)

But natural introversion carries a necessary piece of self-knowledge: social interactions can be exhausting. We’re really like cars without an alternator: the batteries run down after too much hobnobbing, just as a car without an alternator shortly depletes battery voltage to a dysfunctional state.

I question the “introversion-douchebag” dichotomy, though PUAs conflate being an alpha man-dog with extroversion. As Vox notes, they *may* be attention whores (bad for a relationship) but they need not be. I know a lot of good people who are energized by social interaction rather than depleted. The best personal relationship in my life was with a natural extrovert, and while our differences occasionally created tension (the venn diagram of our preferred social life required the two of us to compromise and negotiate who was in our overlap), in the main I found it to be a superb mating of opposite qualities. Of course, she was, at her core, a profoundly kind extrovert (again, I’m challenging the notion that extroversion = douche), just as I attempted to be a kind and curious introvert.

The most charismatic and attractive extrovert I ever met was a man who was a natural introvert (he was an artist and musician who pursued a life in business). He never reconciled the tension between the two roles and drank himself to death at 54. Drinking became his quiet place — not a good thing. (“Alcohol is the poor man’s symphony” — William James.)

Douchbags – low to moderate IQ extroverts.

Introspective – high-IQ introverts.

““The problem is that you now have 40 years of life left and nothing meaningful to do.”

Ahhhh….. is that why Americans are so youth obsessed?”

Partially.

See, once you hit 35-40, you have to have set up the next step or it’s onto the industrial scrapheap with you.

Old people are icky and smell funny.

The poor woman in BV’s example is now at the end of the line and must now face the consequences of her failure.

“Middle age is a time to rejoice in the waning of sex hormones and cultivate an inner life of the mind and perform the function of “wise elder” to the younger set.”

My entire youth was spent trying to cultivate an inner life of the mind.

I’m kind of tired of it.

“Take your rightful position as “uncle” and be at peace with yourselves.”

Many men are parents of 10 year olds at this point.

Some are parents of 5 year olds.

“Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.”

ONLY because women of that age can’t pull it off. Therefore, those spitting-mad ineffective insults are irrelevant and dismissed.

“Some are parents of 5 year olds.”

Many are just getting started with their loverly fertile nubile worthy wives.

“For instance, a doctor might just be starting out in private practice on his own at 30, after a long hard decade of career advancement.”

Nonsense. All the doctors in my family, male and female, married and had kids in their 20s.

Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.

@PJ:

“Nonsense. All the doctors in my family, male and female, married and had kids in their 20s.

Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.”

Well, they’re not making any money in residency and generally have $200,000 in school debt.

They want to be financially stable first.

“Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.”

Most of the world is happily feminism-free.

“some men are just now figuring out how to date women”

If it needs to be figured out then its just not worth it

“They want to be financially stable first.”

If someone is working full time, particularly a doctor, they already ARE financially stable. If both parents are working, and both are doctors, then they are more than stable.

You people use any excuse you can. It would be more honest and noble to just say, “we enjoy the single life until such and such an age”.

BB,
“PJ, how did you end up in the U.S.? Do you find yourself often yearning to return to India? Do you want to marry an Indian gent?”

I return to South Asia (not just India, I have family all over that place) regularly. I actually don’t stay stateside most of the time as my work takes me all around the world.

I already did marry an Indian gent. We are divorced. Not because of what Abbot will assume. We are best friends and plan on living together in old age. We divorced because of his mom. If anyone here knows about South Asian mothers-in-law, I don’t have to say more.

On Matterhorn:

I’m a civilian, obviously, but have read widely and professionally in the literature of war and do some brainwork on the ‘contractor’ side of the IC, (which, as we’ve noticed lately, *is* the IC) so I have a social and professional set that includes an unusual martial cohort. Everyone to whom I’ve recommended it has been speechless. It’s one of those books that can only speak for itself.

More interestingly, in April I had dinner (Red Rooster, amazing supper club in Harlem) with two women friends who were setting up the first Aspen Writers confab, and the theme this year was the literature of war. (My editor trusts my eye but like most NYC intellectuals had never heard of Matterhorn, mostly because the subject matter is verboten.) So Matterhorn was my book recommendation for the evening, and Marlantes for their conference. Within a week they had read the book and invited Marlantes — and he spoke last month. When my dad (WWII Navy) was visiting he read it in two 12-hour stints. It takes longer to read than one might think because you have to stand up and walk around from time to time.

Like Hopper’s paintings, this novel is sui generis.

Amusing note on Matterhorn: So Marlantes has been writing the book for 30 years. He finally resolves that it is finished. He sends it to NY for conventional publishing. An editor lady tells him, “Like, it’s really good, shows a lot of promise, but can you change it to Afghanistan and give the hero a love interest?” He instead published it with a small academic house on the west coast, and sold about 5000 copies. Because of that it got picked up (absent the “change it to Afghanistan” thing) and published by a major house.

It really is the best novel of war, in English, I’ve ever read. Well, Beowulf is better, but my Old English has atrophied and I can’t read it properly anymore. Crane is more concise but then he wasn’t a company commander, either. For Whom the Bell Tolls is positively silly by comparison. The guy who taught me to fly was at Pleiku and he just said, “I couldn’t finish it.”

Whoops, I have read Grant. Just a different one, whose first name was “Ulysses”. Highly recommended as well. Many people still think it was written by his publisher, Twain.

Oh, for goodness sakes. He was accepted at West Point, commissioned and elected as U.S. Grant.

SW: On projects: “I think that’s a great point about partnership. In my experience, it’s important (and enjoyable) when couples share interests …”

When I was married — whoops, yes, I’m not — my wife and I used to say, “Build a house, get a divorce.” Later we amended it to, “Build an addition, get a divorce.” (Later I amended it again: Start a company, get a divorce.”)

The point was that people with nothing going on in the emotional/romantic department would seize on a “project”: A project to divert them from the existential nightmare that was their proximity. They’d build the house and then be staring at each other in confusion. They’d spend $500/s.f. on the new kitchen — and still not know how to cook or why they should cook (cuz then they’d have to eat dinner together). Ergo: They still didn’t know how to live together, even under better material circumstances.

So I just want to be with a girl I can talk to and laugh with in the TSA checkpoint at 5:30 a.m. after a 2.5 hour drive, while some flunky asshole puts his hands in my crotch.

I haven’t seen any rigorous study that claims people’s “big five” personality traits stay constant through life. If you have such references I’d love to see it.

Susan, interesting about the ambivert vs. strong I/E with respect to sales. Have they reproduced this result in non-software fields? It is possible that selling software is somewhat different from other sales.

So, neither Myers-Briggs nor the Big 5 thingy work.

And in addition, different people have entirely different developmental arcs.

@Susan/J

“less than maybe 5% of men have any value
Wow! Really?? That’s hard to prove, isn’t it?”

If we consider that 20% of men pass the attractive bar and whittle down from there it is not that unreasonable a suggestion.

Sounds like a wise man should be introspective…but not let his date find out.

And some of you people are starting to depress me. I’m 50…and while I don’t consider a 20-something an eligible date, 35 or so seems not unreasonable to at least try for.

I really would like to go for an introspective walk right now but it is raining so I might write some erotic fiction instead.

Or watch Big Bang.

I would also like to volunteer to give Joan Holloway Harris a hug.

“Good luck getting the love back in that situation.

Particularly if the person having the affair is already “in love” with the third party.”

In this case she wasn’t. It was a short fling for sexual satisfaction only. She told her husband that she chose to be with him. It was he who chose to divorce, destroy the family and damage his daughters but not forgiving and loving again, and then marrying the woman he had a fling with to “get back” at his wife. Who ended up being a crazy alcohol addicts who made his childrens lives a living hell.

Disgusting.

PJ: I have a good friend who is an SA woman and she will NOT date SA men because of their “mommy issues” (her words). I didn’t want to sound impertinent, so I didn’t ask—your related experience made me curious.

At this point she has fully embraced the USA and likes All-American surfer type guys, serves on some watchdog group that tracks corruption among Indian mid-level bureaucrats granting import/export licenses for bribes, etc. I have never dated or fucked her but she’s extremely attractive IMHO.

Sociopolitically, she is a fascinating blend. She combines a kind of interesting Chopra type quantum-spirituality with sun worship and naturopathy and all the usual hippie-type quirks, but she’s also this anarcho-capitalist IT professional who (allegedly) wears Agent Provocateur thongs, dresses and accessorizes impeccably, drives a fancy car, and would like to see Pakistan destroyed.

PJ: that’s pretty cool about the Nepalese surfer. From your descriptions, I actually would have thought that a yoga-practicing Laird Hamilton soul-surfer/vagabond world traveler type would be your ideal mate.

Re: mommy-issues. I once asked her about going to India to find a nice guy there and she said that she didn’t really want to be doused in kerosene. I laughed; she said that she was serious and that I should shut the fuck up.

Mike M, ” I’m 50…and while I don’t consider a 20-something an eligible date, 35 or so seems not unreasonable to at least try for.”

Susan, “I agree! Aim high – if you have to adjust, you will. If I were 35, I would have no qualms about dating a man of 50.”

– Oh come on now Susan. Your regular readers here aren’t buying that for a second.

Mr. Aubrey,

How would you know? Among other things, allowing doubt about oneself to show is not an attractor.

Divulging a measured amount of self-doubt can create a huge increase in charisma. Huge.

People have to see you as human in order to identify with you and truly connect with you. Disclosing an amount of internal struggle is important in that regard. It’s harder for people to emotionally invest in you when you’re always perfect and everything’s always fine.

I would also like to volunteer to give Joan Holloway Harris a hug.

If that’s the one from Mad Men… I think she’s a little too much woman for me, but hell yes, I’d give her a ride.

SW: “That makes me wonder how the non-introspective person who has unwarranted or at least untested confidence in his/her ability makes out. How do they deal with setbacks?”

One of the ironical aspects of flying is that the more one does it, the more one runs the risk of preferring the hostile environment of the air to the nattering business of the ground. I have also encountered this at sea. The reason the risk increases is that one becomes so attached to the solitude of 15,000 that one begins to take it for granted. And of course, it’s not a friendly place, necessarily. William Langewische has described this better than I in Inside the Sky (republished as Aloft.)

A flying buddy, Robert E. Dupea, cribbed Thomas Bernhard (Austrian poet) and described one particular night-flight into a state of reflection and insight. This light piece describes entry into a state of contemplation, the triumph of technique, and the momentary dislocation that results from capricious insight:

Disoriented

By 3:30 a.m. we’ve exhausted all strategies for conversation. The ground below swims in moonlight, an
uninviting day-for-night tableau, unwinding. We focus on our own alertness, querying ourselves for
signals of fatigue. In the still air, warmer by the mile, our aircraft flies its own heading and altitude, which
is ours, which is verified every 20 seconds with a sweeping panel scan ñ left-right, down, right-left.
Everything is as it should be, we say, droning forward and southward, warm-ward. Earlier, like a tired
clock, the aircraft lost interest in our steady state, slowed, and then, untrimmed, began its slow-descent into
night-shrouded mountains, ice-fog filling the steep ravines. Just like that, no alarms and no piercing
awareness, just the bleeding away of inertia, altitude, and safety. The outside air temperature was minus 18
C. Induction icing, we decide, and we have a bright red lever for that, which we move three inches, which
works. Now it is warm, the radio is quiet, sleep is a set of cool starched sheets on a farm evening after
weeks of unbroken heat and labor. We smoke like laboratory creatures, it works. Another state passes
behind and below the aircraft, the moon, which created this particular world, is wonderful to stare at, so we
do. Are we drowsing? Heading and altitude. Airspeed, amps and fuel pressure. The CDI. Heading and
altitude. Apparently not.

Then a peripheral form jerks our vision, right, and down ñ there, on the ground, was something: precise,
geometric shape of light, now gone. Hallucination? we wonder. It was the shape of a child’s puzzle-toy.
Time to land, wait for daylight? The shape of the mysterious light-form lingers. We still see it, in mind.
Perhaps it is time to stop. Then another slashing side-form of light. Looking down and to the right,
nothing. We look left: nothing. Then another. Another. Then it is plain: we know. We traverse the
Carolina lowlands now, the moon, to our right, reflects itself in ponds and swamp-pools, the angle of that
reflection briefly trapped by our sidelong vision. It is only moonlight on water. It is not fantastical. It is
not the letter that we put away 12 years ago, or the conversation on the steps of the Duomo in that Umbrian
hill-town, or the promises that got hammered into dust by all of our daily panting after nothing. It is only
moonlight on water in the swamps and farm ponds of coastal Carolina. The radio is silent. The highways,
in moonlight, empty. We pass another state, check fuel. The shape of that light disturbs us yet. But we are
material people and it is gone. We scan heading and altitude, measure fuel consumed and remaining. We
remember not knowing, and we remember our dislocation of five minutes. It was real but it is gone. We
know what it was, after all. Heading and altitude. Check fuel.

###

@BV:

“So in introspection, if we achieve the “not-now”, the diversions of the world cannot intrude on one’s mind, and this is to be an achievement we seek.”

I think this relates to Meditations on the Tarot, Chapter I, The Magician.

“If one is diligent, one will be successful.”

Of course that is not the type of asshat alpha we lionize in Western culture.

Well, in part because diligence is not really a virtue. It’s only diligence properly applied that is useful. The Protestant Work Ethic has some real problems.

And with respect to the truth, it’s sometimes better to neither tell the truth nor lie when you are asked a question

Generosity and earnestness are generally good ideas, however.

I’m not sure what he means by “liberal” in this context.

I would be quite interested in the military and economic history of the Byzantine Empire. You are talking about the successors to Rome, who lasted 8 centuries after the Western Empire had fallen and Rome was nothing more than a playground for barbarians with pointy sticks.

Actually, I know very little about the Empire. Apparently the Theme System was rather effective in repelling the Muslim invaders, though, right up until the Seljuk Turks came upon the scene, and my understanding is that they demolished Constaniopole only because the Byzantine refused to purchase the cannons of an ingenious inventor…who then sold them to the Turks, who used them to take down the walls.

There is also something about Justinian, who I remember only small things about, who also led an invasion of Italy that was at least briefly successful.

Would also be interested in learning about some of the ethnic history of Balkans regions, since the heterogenous groups have been a point of contention among European great powers for centuries, started the First World, and ultimately doomed the Austrian Empire (descended from the Hapsburgs who quite nearly re-established a kind of Roman Empire in Europe).

Hmmmm.

I may need to go pick up a new book…

Mr. Wavevector “The meaning of virtue is appears somewhat different in Confucianism than it is in Western Christian thought.”

The translation is not perfect, because the original text in Chinese is extremely concise to the point of “poetry” (every syllable/sound in Chinese is a word, which often contains a multitude of words depending on the word itself). But there is a follow-up immediately after that statement you quoted which does imply “diligence properly applied” is necessary.

“The Master said: “You, have you heard the six phrases about the six distortions?” You answered that he hadn’t. “Then stay a moment,” Confucius said, “and I will tell you.”

If you love being kind to others, but don’t like to study, then your kindness will be distorted into simplicity.

If you love wisdom, but don’t like to study, then your wisdom will be distorted into aimlessness.

If you love trustworthiness, but don’t like to study, then your trust will be distorted into harm.

If you love candor, but don’t like to study, your candor will be distorted into rudeness.

If you love boldness, but don’t like to study, your boldness will be distorted into unruliness.

If you love persistence, but don’t like to study, your persistence will be distorted into rashness.”

“An unmarried woman of 35 is likely to want children, which would entail active fatherhood into the 70′s for that man of 50. That’s not an ideal situation for anyone involved.”

No qualms here. None whatsoever. Age is as age does. And as age manifests itself. One of the women I’m seeing said about my dad (age 85) last week: “He looks incredible. I mean, he’s still sexy. That means you’ll look like that too.” (Maybe: I’m stronger but I drink more and I have a box of cigars on my desk as I type.) She’s probably carrying the highest female MMV in her city (pop. 100K) (surgeon, 5’11”, athlete, Norwegian bone structure meaning hot), so it’s not like she has low standards. There’s something to be said, evidently, for being a lifelong athlete of some sort, and eating properly.

“Which agrees with the original sentiment that emotionally unavailable men are better at attaining female attention.”

This has certainly been true for me, now that I’ve stopped trying to be a “good man”. In this ongoing experiment the above-mentioned woman called me at 11 p.m. last night pressing for some “emotional availability.” In the past I would have talked all night with her. Instead I made a date for the weekend. She called back at 7 this morning. I still wasn’t “available.” We talk about her emotional realities, not mine.

In my backtests I’ve concluded that I’ve only been rewarded once (and not in a marital relationship) for being emotionally articulate about deep personal matters of concern to *me*, while with a woman. (Of course, I didn’t believe that was a safe thing to do, however, so I then sabotaged the relationship (with a true MMV 10, no less).)

I think my misunderstanding of this fact contributed mightily to the end of my marriage. (I was under the impression that we were peers in an emotional constant, with equal concern for each other’s happiness. I cringe remembering some of my revelations to my ex-.) I also do research on restaurants and always drive the car. I do believe women are the drivers of long relationships, and I doubt I could submit myself to that control scenario ever again, especially since I know that such submission destroys my appeal. I certainly would never reveal under any circumstance my fears or vulnerabilities. I think a man can do that maybe once or twice every ten years before his girl thinks he’s a pussy.

Ah, Valentine. Seat of, I believe, Cherry County? The big one in the northwest-central part of the state? Did a bit of work there.

Buena Vista, yes, perhaps each of us tend to attract and become attracted to a set of characteristics and personalities which result in certain relationship dynamics.

I had in the past attracted guys who were more “popular” with women, but I did not go for them because I tended not to trust them. The women who did go for them may indeed react differently than I do.

It is also entirely possible, and most likely the case, that I would not react well to expressed fears in a different man who has a different method of expression — for example, loudness and anger instead of quietness and anxiety. Meanwhile, another woman might prefer the former to the latter.

In the long haul, this stuff really matters.

“There is also something about Justinian, who I remember only small things about, who also led an invasion of Italy that was at least briefly successful.”

That moron smashed the Ostrogoths.

Talk about an own goal.

@ Hope,

But there is a follow-up immediately after that statement you quoted which does imply “diligence properly applied” is necessary.

Thanks for the explanation. The part you quoted implies that all the virtues must be supported not only by deeds but by learning. Compare that to contemporary Western culture, where people want to claim virtue without either the learning or deeds to justify it.

If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?”

It might come in handy sooner than you think. We had a party this weekend and some of the men were talking about the rising chaos all over the world. Then one of them came into my office and happened to see the exceedingly complicated wargame my son and I had set up in there.

“Good grief, you’re preparing him for this!”

Beware the false retreat and always, ALWAYS, pay your debts to the Venetians.

If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?

Impress a hot history major and get laid? Stranger things have happened. I got laid once because of my knowledge of 19th century orchestral music.

“I agree with Pip’s step-dad, however. People do age (appearance-wise) at radically different rates. I think I got blasted out of the water here the last time I mentioned the importance of meeting one’s potential mother-in-law.”

No, you definitely need to look at the mother-in-law.

How else can you make an educated guess how your wife will age?

I thought that was both common knowledge and common sense.

“Women expect marriage to provide opportunities for personal growth and development for themselves.”

I’ve never though about marriage as being like grad school.

Probably because marriage is nothing at all like grad school.

In fact, if you want the grad school experience you should probably *go to grad school* rather than *getting married*.

As an example, I will show how I use similar reasoning when I’m thirsty.

Instead of going to the hardware store and buying a box of nails, I go to the refrigerator and get out a soda. I then open the soda, pour it into a glass, and drink it. Now, I *could* go to the hardware store and buy a box of nails and drink them, but I’m fairly confident that would not relieve my thirst.

(Granted, drinking nails *could* result in me not being thirsty because the EMT’s hooked a lactated ringer on my arm right before the emergency surgery, but drinking nails is generally not considered a solution to thirst.)

Anacaona, I like stories where the central plotline is not just about romance. My favorite is the Dune series, which is definitely not a love story, but it does have romances, marriages, love and children… and war, religion, politics, philosophy, history, science, sci-fi, ecology, metaphysics, spirituality, and a whole world which is both imagined and realistic.
Oh okay. I though you were talking about romance novels. You should read Cloud Atlas it has all that and more. I haven’t read Dune though so I don’t know if will be depicted in the way you like it.

You recommend Cloud Atlas? It’s on my Kindle, but I feel intimidated by it for some reason.
I saw the movie and it was a transforming experience. I plan to start reading the book as soon as I’m done with a book I had in line before it. My MIL loves the book. If anything watch the movie first and see if you want to read the book.

Abbot July 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm

“Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.”

ONLY because women of that age can’t pull it off.

Maybe people who hate women (and who really hate middle-age women) should find a different forum for their comments. I don’t know what they get out of being here.

And it’s weird to be spouting ageism when you’re no spring chicken yourself.

The reality is this :

MEN MUST APPROACH.

I’ll say it again :

MEN MUST APPROACH.

Women are fucking hopeless at approaching men.

Really.

I’ve seen the women that tried. You end up feeling sorry for them.

… and suspicious.

Oh yes – you end feeling suspicious about them.

So with this fact – what is a woman supposed to do ?

Signalling.

It all resorts down to that decidedly feminine art of signalling : Getting the guy to notice her, and to inspire that guy for once – and only once – to ignore his timid arse … and walk up to her … to start a conversation.

The problem is that the men just don’t see the signals.

They really don’t.

So here is a bloody list of those signals, courtesy of The Flirting Bible by Fran Green :

The Girlfriend Gab.
When two or more women spot a guy they think is cute or otherwise remarkable, they will commonly huddle and whisper in a conspiratorial manner. Although it is possible that they will do this to trash a guy they see, it is much more common to be a sign of deep interest. When trashing a guy, look for their facial expressions.

And if a man has any reason to suspect that he is the object of the gab, it is much more likely that it is of a positive note. Women would most likely trash a guy that they know from experience and so the guy would be onto the matter. If you walk into a room and see women huddling and whispering, and you have caught flashes of eye contact, this is a very good sign.

The Peek-a-boo.
Hiding her eyes behind a restaurant menu or other mask, she will drop the mask to reveal her eyes in a bid to entice a male to approach her. This is apparently learned as a child when played with by either parent and is replicated during adulthood.

The Shy Geisha.
You make eye contact with a woman. She then does something with her arms that frames her chest with one forearm and with the other she touches her shoulder. She will look down and away from you. This projects modesty.

She might even smile.

This is the most common USS on the planet, and it exists in all cultures from sophisticated salons of Paris to the African Savanna. The woman is projecting herself as feminine, submissive and socially worthy.

The Sidelong Glance.
Society lowers a woman’s value for being too aggressive with guys, so she might not feel comfortable even looking at you with more than quick, furtive glances. If you see a woman looking at you quickly and discreetly more than once, she’s checking you out.

The Jewelry Tug/Fondle.
Pulling gently at an earring or necklace can not only feel instinctively good, it is a way for her to highlight her decorations (plumage, so to speak). She will commonly look directly at you when doing this. This is a woman who wants to be approached.

The Exposé.
If a woman is contacting with you and she lets the shoulder of her sweater, or strap of her blouse or dress slip off her shoulder, it is a very strong come-on to you. She’s showing how at ease she is with letting you see her flesh. Same deal with…

The Sole-Bearing Shoe Dangle.
Like the Exposé, this is a way of transmitting comfort with revealing her flesh. Women are very conscious of their dress at all times, so when they allow a shoe to dangle off of the heel, it’s a super-subtle way of undressing a tiny little bit for you. It is socially safe for her (this isn’t Saudi Arabia), and it is a clear hint that clothes can come off if you play your cards right.

If she’s actually jiggling her foot, that means she clearly wants you to notice the shoe dangle. Additionally, a woman might mimic the sex act by pushing and retrieving her foot from within a loose shoe.

The Close Encounter.
Women will sometimes invade a guy’s personal space in an obvious—if sometimes—fleeting manner. When getting off a bar stool, a woman can playfully get real close to a guy on the next stool and then exit that space.

When a woman gets her entire body real close to you, notice if she had options, because if she did, you can be rest assured she knew about them. By choosing to get close to you, even if for a brief moment, she is flirting with you.

The Space Invasion.
Like the Close Encounter, this is a way of flirtatiously penetrating your personal bubble. She will use one or two hands to get nearer to you than is really necessary, and she will also look for signs of welcome (your smile).

She might playfully gesticulate while speaking so her hand gets very close to you. Don’t recoil, and make sure you project some kind of welcoming signal.

The Innocent Touch.
A woman will never touch you unless she likes you. If a woman makes a casual and innocent display of putting her hands on you (picking off a piece of lint from your jacket, turning your wrist to look at your watch, or smoothing the lapels on your jacket), it’s to see if you’re smart enough to reward her for the effort.

Right after you tell a funny joke is a common time a woman near you will probe you for physical approval. If she picks off your lint, playfully say you want your lint back and pick off an imaginary piece off of her (be careful where you do that).

You must remember: this is a probe for your approval, so if she does not get any positive confirmation that you like her touch, she’ll interpret her touch as unappreciated and will back off.

The Lean-2-U.
In some cases it is not possible or favorable for a woman to physically touch you. An alternative for her is to lean toward you. If a woman leans toward you, don’t recoil!

You don’t have to lean forward as well; you might remain still, but never lean away. She’ll pick up nothing but rejection from you and will split a moment later.

Weathervane Palm.
Women will use their hands like a weathervane to indicate interest—or disinterest—in a man. If she places her hand beneath her chin and points her palm toward you, that’s good. She is receptive to further conversation or may be demonstrating an interest in the current topic.

If she points her knuckles at you, it’s bad. It may even project hidden hostility. If she was showing her palms and suddenly turns the hand, you might have just offended her.

The Necking.
When a woman bares her neck (often by using her hands to raise her hair out of the way), it signifies submission or vulnerability to the viewing male.

The Underarm Flash.
A woman’s underarms are rarely seen. She is aware that she is exposing them to you, and that’s “special” for her. Often part of The Head Toss and Hair Flick, it is an instinctual way of releasing pheromones (the “sex perfume”) to attract a man’s attention.

The Primp.
If a woman likes you, she might show her interest by refreshing her makeup for you to see. She may do it while you’ve strolled off to the lavatory. Whenever you return from a brief absence from your date, check her out for signs of primping. It clearly means she wants to look her best.

The Head Toss and Hair Flick.
Often the first cue of female interest. Tossing back the hair reveals the face, and reaching behind her head to adjust her hair will also reveal the armpit, which is an instinctual gesture to release pheromones.

Wet Lips and Pouting, Mouth Slightly Open.
Females have larger lips than males, and pouting is a way to increase their size. Sexual arousal makes a woman’s lips, breasts and genitals enlarged with blood flow (and redden). Moist, red lips are naturally arousing to men because they suggest an aroused vagina.

Self-Touching.
Our minds get our bodies to act out our secret desires. Women have dramatically more nerve sensors, making them more sensitive to physical touch. When a woman sensually strokes her neck, thigh, or throat, it implies that a man who plays his cards right will be welcome to touch her in these same ways.

Simultaneously, this act lets her imagine what it would feel like to be touched in this manner by a desirable man.

The Limp Wrist.
Walking or sitting with a limp or dangling wrist is a submission signal exclusive to women and gay men. It is easily spotted, and a subtle but highly effective attention-getter. It conveys the message that this woman is submissive and feminine, and willing to be dominated by the right guy.

Fondling a Cylindrical Object.
Fondling cigarettes, a finger, the stem of a wine glass, a dangling earring or any other phallic-shaped object is an unconscious indication of what may be in the mind. Taking off and replacing a ring can suggest the sex act.

Exposed Wrists.
Be alert to a woman exposing her wrists to you. Women consider their wrists to be highly erotic (it is a very delicate skin area). It is believed that as a woman’s interest in a man grows, she will increase the frequency of wrist exposure. [I may be reaching here, but having her hands up, wrists out, is also the highly submissive posture of being pinned to a mattress during sex.]

Sideways Glance Over Raised Shoulder.
The raised shoulder creates a roundness mimicking the breast, and a glance that is fleetingly pulled away gives a peek-a-boo sensation to the woman who does it, and a peeped-at feeling for the man who gets this treatment. Marilyn Monroe was famously photographed many times doing this.

Rolling Hips.
Because of pronounced differences between males and females anatomically, rolling hips are a very strong sex distinction and signal. To accentuate this is to strongly project allure to a desired male.

The Pelvic Tilt.
The waist-to-hip ratio of 70 percent has been scientifically proven to be the most attractive to men, even in women who are much heavier than average. The best way to accentuate this waist-to-hip ratio is to tilt the pelvic while standing. This is one more way for a woman to appear more female.

Handbag in Close Proximity.
Women are very protective of their handbags, and men are commonly afraid to even look inside them. Therefore, when a woman “accidentally on purpose” places her handbag close to a man, she is conveying trust and intimacy in him. If she finds the man attractive, she might even fondle or caress her handbag. If she asks you to retrieve something from within her handbag, she is signaling interest.

The Knee Point.
One leg is tucked under the other and points to the person she finds the most interesting. This conveys informality and affords fleeting exposure of the thighs.

The Leg Twine.
A sitting posture in which a woman places one leg atop the other by pressing firmly, and thereby accentuating muscle tone. Often she will hold the upper leg in position by placing two hands with fingers laced onto her knee. This posture showcases her legs and accentuates her femininity.

Arms Folded Across Chest.
Never good. She’s shutting you out and feels threatened. When women like you, they display their breasts.

• Women will stroke necklaces and jewelry (using middle or ring finger) to simulate the subconscious desire to handle you.

• When women sit up to accentuate their posture, they do so to amplify their torso. This is a means of advertising their reproductive advantage (hip-to-waist ratio).

• When a woman fluffs her hair with her hand palms out front toward you, this is good. If her knuckles are toward you, don’t assume anything good.

• Generally speaking, if you make eye contact with a woman and she looks down, that’s good. If she looks laterally/horizontally, she’s undecided. If she looks up, move on; you’re toast.

• If you are on the street and a woman catches your gaze, do not look away. She’ll take that as disinterest. Likewise if you see her look away (and down, usually), do not interpret that as disinterest. Looking away is her job, not yours. Be the alpha and refuse to look away (just don’t glare menacingly).

Here is what women do to attract men. These are their signals. All of them in fact.

So what happens when a guy is smart enough to notice these signals, and takes a chance to approach ?

That’s right – she starts shit-testing him.

And usually he fails them … and gets flaked on … eventually.

Heh.

So HUS’s problem is this :

How in the hell do I make a guy notice me, and make him approach me, without ruining a possible relationship ?

“Women are fucking hopeless at approaching men.

Really.

I’ve seen the women that tried. You end up feeling sorry for them.

… and suspicious.”

Um, no they’re not.

If I had to approach women, I would have had zero girlfriends.

It never even occurred to me that it was *my* job to do the approaching.

Hi Marellus–

Why is a woman approaching a man suspicious?

@ Hope,

I tend to look for deeper evidence of character/strength in men, which is probably why I don’t care for the restaurant thing. But I found myself much more attracted my husband as he described remaining calm in the face of death, taking a leadership / protector role to make sure his friends are okay, his ordeal in rural harsh conditions in Africa and in high altitude winter treks through mountains.

Very few young men in our super sanitized and safe Western culture have come remotely close to a life threatening situation. Most of them have never even been on an unsupervised walk in the woods. That’s exactly why completely inconsequential things like the restaurant choice gain importance – women don’t have anything real on which to judge male character. Perhaps it doesn’t matter anyway – the female attraction to the leader / protector is largely atavistic in this culture.

She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

Yuck. NAMALT!

“Very few young men in our super sanitized and safe Western culture have come remotely close to a life threatening situation.”

College is life threatening. For example, having your head consistently smashed on the ground by a drunk idiot or have a drunk idiot throw knives at you, only to have them land in the wall next to you.

“Most of them have never even been on an unsupervised walk in the woods.”

Even I’ve been out in the woods in the middle of the night by myself. College was more dangerous.

J, I think you are right.

I applaud your good taste.

I remember reading about a woman who was talking about her attraction triggers on a talk show and reported that, deep inside, she “wanted to be his #1, not his *only* one.” In other words, she was an alpha-chaser who needed a continuous contest with other women in order to feel fully engaged in the relationship. It wasn’t about “winning” the man per se, it was about beating other women and deriving satisfaction and validation from the competitive dynamic.

No doubt there are some women like that. A lot of the ‘sphere’s ladies auxilliary is like that, but I think they are a minority IRL, especially in the upper SES levels, which require some love of stability to attain. I also notice that sort of woman regards other women as the enemy and men who cheat as innocent victims of those women. It’s the valise theory of male psychology; the man lacks volition and moral agency. He can just be picked up by his handle and walked away with like a valise.

Guys absolutely loved her little confessional, and applauded her honesty and insightfulness and so on.

Yep. And I believe that she was being candid–about herself. The mistake is seeing her as typical. I personally have had zero interest in competing with other women for men. If my husband ever cheated, as much as I love him, I’d coldly next him. And he would do the same to me. Who has time or energy for such nonsense?

@Ana #203

Nah, it’s just that you, me, Hope and Susan are all lying bitches. IRL, we are all married to cheating alphas who beat us, but we have some nefarious motive for not admitting it. Probably hypergamy coupled with fear of the sisterhood.

I personally just married my husband for those beta bux. I’m not longer attracted to him, dontcha know? Never was. I just got tired of the carousel.

/sarc–for the sarcasm impaired

So HUS’s problem is this : How in the hell do I make a guy notice me, and make him approach me, without ruining a possible relationship ?

This would make a great post for the ladies to contribute to.

But enough are to make Lara Croft popular.

Lara Croft was popular because of her ass. You’re looking at it the whole time you’re playing.

@Ana

Cool. I’ll look for it again.

@Wave

Hmmm…I guess I really didn’t look at her ass. I must be heterosexual.

@Hope

It’s a very ideas-based book. You can’t translate that to film without becoming very dialogue heavy. It’s a pity because it’s such a cool book. Heinlein’s “Stranger in a Strange Land” is like that too. I used to think it would make a great movie, but I now see how slow and dialogue heavy it would be.

Re Roissy/not hating on you

You have such a sweet manner. Who could hate on you?

J, I rather enjoy dialogue-heavy films, but there are ideas in Dune that can’t really be properly conveyed with dialogue either.

Thank you for saying that I have a sweet manner. But I was kind of an annoying thorn on Roissy’s blog because I kept disagreeing. I think he wanted to show I was a hypocrite, but he took down the post in the end. I definitely didn’t ask him to do it.

Being objectified, as a man:

It’s pleasant because it’s the slipping of layers upon layers of cultural diversion: the cloaking and suppression of female sexuality in bourgeois culture requires women to never express base lust, unless they are pros or proud sluts.

I was pleased to see a nude picture of me in my ex-wife’s house, once. It was right out in the open on her dresser. Didn’t expect it. It didn’t compensate for much of what had happened, but at least I knew that she knew she wouldn’t be getting any more of *that*. (She didn’t, he’s a scale model.)

I was also very naive when I was a good boy husband and I had no idea what the different female coding schemes were. I was talking about football once with her and a close girlfriend, and lamenting that while I could throw a football 60, my hand was too small to put three fingers on the laces. I could only manage two. I went on to explain that the great quarterbacks all have three fingers on the laces, and blah blah blah.

My wife was turning red. She said, “It’s not like you think it is, Louise, hah hah hah.”

Later, she said, “Don’t ever say you have small hands. You don’t.”

I said, “I don’t have small hands, I just don’t have hands like Terry Bradshaw.”

“You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you.”

Once I did, I was very pleased. It was extremely important to her, that her best friend knew, what she was getting in the dark.

Now that I am older, women talk all the time about my physical qualities. I suppose it’s because most men and women over 45 have asses with the constitution of cottage cheese. I love being objectified.

Susan. Ref Auel. Point is, maybe men keep certain things to themselves for the same reason. Can’t afford for the protectees to know it.

Bastiat Blogger, I also wanted to comment on this:

In fact, the majority of my married male friends who have cheated (caveat: I am talking about the cheaters who A) were not inveterate players pre-marriage, and B) cheated on their wives with women who were less objectively attractive than their wives) did so because they fell for women who provided this kind of psychological stimulation, who “made them feel good about themselves”, etc.

I don’t excuse cheating, but I also personally take an attitude of “I will try to be the best girlfriend/wife I can possibly be, and if you still cheat on me, it’s on you.” I constantly tell my husband how hot and sexy he is, make him feel good about himself, and of course don’t turn him down or do any kind of sex-rationing.

But I do all this without putting down other women. I do not make disparaging remarks against other women to my husband, nor did I appear “hyper-competitive” to try to paint other women in a negative light. I just don’t see the point in it. I think something like that is more likely to backfire against a good man, because he would probably think of the woman as a “crazy bitch,” who although today uses those words against other women, might turn those harsh words on him one day.

ADBG, babies mostly entertain themselves on random cords, household objects and flour lint. Especially as the dad, my husband has plenty of time still for his own interests.

Another anecdote from my manosphere days, somewhat related to this topic. I was friendly to other women, and a few of us started a “girl game” blog. My husband and I met up with one of the girls and her boyfriend, and the four of us had dinner together. I don’t think that would have happened if I was super competitive and disparaging toward other females.

Plus, and forgive the new agey speak, it’s just easier to go through life unencumbered by negative energy.

And…we’re done here. Intellectuals? Mocked, relentlessly. Introspective? A wholly unknown dating specimen to most of the women under the age of 50–60, and most certainly unwelcome to the point of being labeled ‘hopeless Nice Guys’, (NG, TM) .
http://jezebel.com/meet-your-next-bad-date-the-intellectual-man-child-733674542

Ref. here also: http://jezebel.com/5838994/a-field-guide-to-nice-guys

For the record. ‘VJ’

“Yes, and the other “compensations” generally come in the form of status and wealth. For a Harvey Weinstein to get an attractive wife, a great deal of status and wealth is required.

The is Female Attraction Cues 101.”

Some very attractive men are very in love with unattractive women.

This is Reality 101.

However, it’s also the exception that proves the rule.

I hope the new format on the blog works well for you Susan.

What is the name of the painting that used to be at the top of the blog?

I can’t recall off the top of my head.

I think that’s fine when both people share the same priorities. I think far too often the exchange is money for sex and love. And I don’t think that works very well.
More confirmation bias at work. Everytime women say here “Regardless of the exceptions you pay attention to, most women marry and stay married to men that are not considerably older, even in the third world where is no taboo for a man to exercise his sexuality most women fall in love with men that are within 10 years or less”
Then some men here call it shaming and trying to control men sexuality and all that jazz. Nope we are just telling what we hear in the pajama partys and when we meet for coffee. Read how many romance novels have considerably older leads. Women don’t fantasize about wrinkles that is for sure, YMMV.

One of my comments was eaten up.

Second time that has happened. Grrrr.

S, Wolfe does not say whether Charlie is “very ugly”. He makes clear that Charlie was short but strong, went bald very young, and otherwise was not good looking. So he had the muscles to generate attraction but nothing else physically, the baldness was a negative, and his dogpatch speech and manners were huge negatives.

By the time he gets Serena, he is in the category you are talking about, viz., horny old goat with money. She certainly marries him for the money–Charlie even admits this to himself–but she is also attracted to him. Wolfe talks about all the sex they have before his debts give him impotence and insomnia. Then he gets worried because she is still frisky for him but he can’t satisy her.

I find the blockquotes hard to read in the new format. There is too little contrast between the two shades of grey. Try some of the other fifty shades, please

Ana,

I like a lot of things
In general, I like shows and books and movies that either mock or attack social norms, or warm positive messages of inclusiveness that show both the flaws and strengths of humans.
So I really like Community and to some extent Glee. I also like Newsroom and Girls.
Also, when emotionally healthy, I NORMALLY don’t consider other human beings to be so far superior to me that I could never hope to match them
I do spend quite a bit of time on introspection. I go on 45 minute walks 4-5 times a week.

@ Hope
I don’t mean to suggest that intellectual men should abandon their intellectual pursuits and pursue increased SMV full-time. Or trying to maximize SMV of their partner.
HOWEVER:
It behooves us to understand that while we all have a number of positive traits, well, certain traits are valued in the SMP, and some are not.
Relatively small changes and some effort can make a big difference in the SMP. This may be independent of your ability to contribute to human well-being.
Ex: To one lost sheep a shepard boy is greater than the richest king.
To standard middle-class Western women, a shepard boy is a dirty nomad and a King is a King.
It’s not that the Shepard Boy should try to make himself into a King, or that Sheldon should try to behave like a Prince, but they can and should take efforts to mimic some of their successful SMV. This is better for everyone.

More practical ex: Going into my senior year, my professors tried to get me to continue my economics education. Continuing to study in my mid-20s and becoming a TA or whatever may let me research economics and contribute marginally to our understanding of the world.
On the other hand, my current accounting job is higher status in many sectors, and it pays more, which allows me to buy other high-status things. Better SMV. Less intellectual value.

I am not saying what trades are the CORRECT ones to take, but for a lot of us, there exists a trade-off.

@Susan

I saw you asked for opinions on the layout.

1. Page/comment numbers.
2. Options to skip between page numbers (having to go new entries every time is a pain, unless I am missing something.)
3. Colours are a little clinical.

I like the font and comment layout however. Way easier to read/skim.

As for my friends, again, acknowledging their weaknesses in dating, which are weaknesses that many men share, does not mean I am inherently superior. Higher SMV=/=better.
I always had though that and I hope that you seriously believe it too.
If not let me tell you that are coming across as feeling superior to them and in general more often than not.
I love Sheldon but he can be an annoying asshole at times I hope when your friends point you out to how much alike you are they don’t mean it in a bad way. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they do, YMMV.

“No, you definitely need to look at the mother-in-law.”

“No, look at the FATHER in law, because daughters tend to resemble their dads and sons their moms.”

I dunno. Don’t we all have two parents and take traits from them at random.

The older I get the more my face reminds me of my dad’s sisters, though I’m built just like my mom.

I have two sons. The older looks like my dad and I; the younger is a clone of my my husband

I’m going to download the book, just because I’m curious from the men’s side…

Just clicked 7-8 times and waited for a page to load each time. I don’t recommend this format. I know WordPress allows one to load a complete comment stream because I’m moving one of my websites over to WordPress. (Given the number of comments HUS generates (hundreds per topic), even with the page and comment numbering with the old template, one had to guess or remember which 150-comment segment should be loaded.)

Strongly recommend this, as well as invoking a ‘read-unread’ visual key (shade the unread comments so one knows where to stop scrolling to read the new stuff) so that frequent readers or contributors load the comment stream once and can skip ahead to the point at which the unread comments begin.

Good luck with the transition.

“We do know what happens the harem has existed for thousands of years. Is full of jealousy, child abuse, political intrigue and backstabbing.”

Oh, goody.

Empirical evidence that it encourages the Dark Feminine.

“At a time when women outrank men in education and income, it no longer makes economic sense for a woman to marry up in terms of education. The most economically productive marriages for professional women are ones in which husbands are freer to care for the needs of the family while the women focus on their lucrative careers.”

I’m starting to think that the number of these magical “lucrative careers” is in decline.

Especially on The Street.

In addition, if I’m right, the relative political power of The Street has been in decline since 2008 (peak finance). Right now, the decline in political power isn’t really hurting Goldman Sachs and friends, but if they fall below the level they need to maintain their protected status during a major recession/financial crisis, then The Street is going to be sliced and diced by the politicos.

Cronyism and general moral turpitude doesn’t seem bother Washington D.C., but failure certainly makes them angry.

Is anyone else surprised by this? A trend toward younger men eagerly marrying older, high earning women? If it’s true, there goes a stake through the heart of yet another manosphere trope.

Not at all. In a societal system, where more and more women have higher levels of economic power and make up a larger percentage of “high earners” it isn’t surprising one bit that some men would “flip the script” so to speak and start to select for long-term mating based at least partially on resource provisioning ability. High-earning women obviously would be “attractive” from a certain POV.

What would be interesting to know is what is the rate of male marital infidelity in these relationships. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they are sky high and orders of magnitude higher. I’m sure there are guys who would be inclined to marry older and high earning and then have sex with younger and hotter on the side. Obviously, immoral, but for the guy lacking ethics it enables the option of having your cake and eating it too.

Now, she said, she and her best friend had changed their romantic goals, from finding boyfriends to finding “hookup buddies,” which she described as “a guy that we don’t actually really like his personality, but we think is really attractive and hot and good in bed.”

Women said universally that hookups could not exist without alcohol, because they were for the most part too uncomfortable to pair off with men they did not know well without being drunk. One girl, explaining why her encounters freshman and sophomore year often ended with fellatio, said that usually by the time she got back to a guy’s room, she was starting to sober up and didn’t want to be there anymore, and giving the guy oral sex was an easy way to wrap things up and leave.

Re: older women.
My mother is 6 years older than my father, though they are together largely because my father knocked up Mother Dearest.

My uncle is 12 years the junior of his wife, IIRC. He is happy enough. However, in high school, he was a sweet Beta guy ignored by all the girls and thought he would never find love. She was a British immigrant who got into a car crash and Uncle pulled her out of the fire.

They married 6 weeks later, IIRC, and my grandfather was apparently furious, to the point of nearly disowning his son.

She won his heart by traditional girl game, and by going after a guy who didn’t really have a lot of options (or at least didn’t perceive himself as having options). Plus he literally pulled her out of a burning car. Situational Alpha, perhaps, but that’s been enough to carry them for several decades.

Individually?

Success for both of them.

Collectively?
If we have too many “success” stories like this, the Republic is dead in a generation.

“We can’t fuck our way to freedom’”

Finally, some wisdom from a feminist.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/im-a-sex-negative-feminist

.

A great comment from that NYT article –

“campus men today must be overjoyed that young women now believe that degrading themselves to service frat-brothers is a proclamation of their feminist credentials”

Yep introspective indeed. Way to go ladies.

I personally identify as a sex-positive feminist for these reasons. It’s like a kind of border crossing where a stern female at the gate asks you for your papers. If you credibly claim that you are a sex-positive feminist and totally against the hypocritical double standards on sexuality that have been used by patriarchal oppressors, etc., etc., you are usually let in.

“Agree & amplify” taken to its logical, sociopolitical conclusion, I guess.

The older 2nd Wavers are growing increasingly suspicious because they gauge the success or failure of any feminist project in adversarial, zero-sum terms—i.e., if men seem to be enjoying it, it can’t be good. But I think they have totally lost control of the movement at this point and few female undergrads outside of sociology/gender studies majors can even tell you the names of five prominent feminists.

“I wonder how these feminists will feel if their mission succeeds, and men become thoroughly dispensable”

or merely unavailable…to them

.

“It would be very interesting to hear a female insider’s account of campus dating at CalTech or MIT”

I can provide one second hand but it is a couple of decades out of date.

Re: Good school male weighted
Purdue 57% male
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/purdue-university-west-lafayette-1825

Why in the holy hell am I attending this sausage-fest? Well, I guess it is a good school. . .

Fish,

Interestingly, my GF’s brother attended Purdue and throughout his 4 years there dated a girl long-distance. After they broke up, he started dating another girl, who is still attending university there, and makes frequent trips.
The most I can get out of him is that he was in charge of an engineering group because he was the only person in the group who could speak English

Vitor,
There does appear to be a large proportion of women who have not ridden the carousel. Thankfully, it is extremely easy to identify such girls! Facebook is a treasure trove because girls put up just damn near everything.

Thankfully, it is extremely easy to identify such girls! Facebook is a treasure trove because girls put up just damn near everything.

Sure. Sort of “Let me see you Facebook and I tell you who you are.”

@ Susan Walsh

See Sassy for proof of this in action.

I don’t say the things I say to win “brownie points” with the men here. I just say what is on my mind, judgement be damned.

If the men want to take what I say, run with it, and use it as evidence that “AWALT”, that is on them. I can only speak for myself and my own preferences.

It sounds to me like they’d love her for being one of the guys. Like that woman you know who took up MMA and got the boob job. She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

The weird thing is that most men I have met either don’t like my personality or don’t understand it. I’ve never been “one of the boys”, and I’ve never wanted to be “one of the boys” either. I can’t really peg myself into any group actually.

I look feminine, and I have many feminine interests/hobbies, but most of my thoughts have a very masculine or “rational” train to them. Most men that I have met have reacted to me with utter confusion. As I’ve said many times before, I don’t have any male friends. I also keep my core group of female friends small and strong. I have no use for the female herd, en masse. Most of the crap that comes with the female herd is nothing but inane drivel anyway.

I feel like more of a lone female wolf, than anything else. Perhaps I’m just a female “sigma” with outward “alpha” appearances.

@jimmy

“Smart money says they were probably the players’ girlfriends or groupies… but damn, that was a pleasant surprise.”

I believe Drew Brees met his wife there. I’d say she’s an outlier. However, in my travels, the schools with the highest level of “talent” were Iowa and Wisconsin.

@MM
I actually don’t know of anyone who got pregnant in college. I know a couple women who got pregnant in high school, but our culture (at least the ones in college) seems to be good at preventing unwanted pregnancy in that sector. I’m not saying all women are big macs (or for those outside the US, royale with cheese), I’m saying some are. I always looked at it like a pyramid with the bottom being those women I would neither want to date or sleep with, the level above women I would sleep with but not date, the level above that I would both sleep with and date and the top wifey material.

It has been brought up before that while I (and a lot of unrestricted people as well) am not that picky about who I will have sex with, i am extremely picky about who I will be in a relationship with and even pickier about marriage. There is an opportunity cost aspect to “giving up” flirting and having sex with others. Obviously I’m not at the SUPER high end of the N spectrum where I have a new chick every week, but i do ok.

i’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, while I “get” the restricted mindset, I reject is as not having utility for me. I feel like most restricted people don’t “get” the unrestricted mindset. I feel like it is crucial to understand in the current SMP.

Here’s an article about China for your infotainment:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-leftover-women-20130714,0,3514862,full.story

Well, I have a habit of attending over 50% male schools.

Because they gave me money.

Go figure.

Yes, men in the Manosphere have to crush their personalities a little bit to get women.

Prior to that, many had the exceeedingly pleasant experience of being entirely invisible to the opposite sex if not outright abused.

Essentially they just under-went the industrial revolution and are now swimming in more goods than they know what to do with. Obviously the Industrial Revolution brings with it all sorts of problems that they might not even know about, but they have just undertaken the biggest leap in living standards in human history.

Kinda hard to fault them for not looking at or even acknowledging the other 80% of girls.

Kinda hard to fault them for not looking at or even acknowledging the other 80% of girls.
Who in turn become invisible themselves to all men in their vicinity and have to resource to listen to the successful Queen Bee’s/hot and crazy that say “slut it up that is how men will see you!” creating the Plularistic Ignorance we all know by memory now.Vicious circle galore! So you would agree that the manosphere is as much part of the problem as feminism sex positivism now?

If it’s true self-improvement then part of that is getting in touch with who someone really is and what he wants. And that will include putting up things that he does or doesn’t want in a woman and reflection upon what will lead to a stable relationship.

Bottom line is a man has to improve himself if he wants better odds of a reln in today’s environment. That gets him in the ballpark. Then he has to choose well too.

Filtering a woman on character and personality is not hard to do. It’s just whether a man really wants to or not. Too often if he’s desperate enough or she’s hot enough then he’ll overlook those things he shouldn’t.

And part of that is just men realizing that it’s alright for him to have boundaries and have a strong frame from which to act and that he shouldn’t be a pushover. Men can learn that through studying game. Once he realizes he can have boundaries then it becomes much more easy to filter women.

@ADBG and @Han
I meant in our little corner of the Internet. Not in global terms. I know feminism is more widespread but many manosphere bloggers had reached the point where “The remedy is worse than the disease” creating more cads and allowing men to get on with crazy hotties only makes them more bitter about women and cynical about humanity no less, YMMV.

Off-topic: My bf and I tried geocaching this weekend and it was great! If you’re looking for a silly, geeky, fun, free (!) date, then I’d highly recommend it.

@ Ana

I meant in our little corner of the Internet. Not in global terms. I know feminism is more widespread but many manosphere bloggers had reached the point where “The remedy is worse than the disease” creating more cads and allowing men to get on with crazy hotties only makes them more bitter about women and cynical about humanity no less, YMMV.

Can you reference anything specific? How are the manosphere writers in general spawning more cads?
The manosphere direction I see being taken is more of a disassociation from “more N=more awesome” and towards “be your own self-improving man.”
They do have a negative attitude towards women on many issues and tend to think of you mostly as feral. That’s quite distinct from suggesting that men should only P&D women and crazy women at that.

Furthermore, the Manosphere is not the Manosphere, but a subset in various alt-right ideologies that are collectively termed “Dark Enlightenment.” The mission of the Manosphere is not to put men into loving relationships. It is to further alt-right ideas in order to engage and defeat the excess social liberalism that is weakening society.

I think they go too far in their vitrol and they need to understand that certain websites, like HUS and MMSL, are not the forums for their discussions.

how do men go looking for LTR , questioning and evaluating ,”She could make a good mother or wife? when those standards aren’t so appearent. Homemaker is looked down by feminism. I think it is easy to spot a Man who is not a good provider as opposed to a woman who might not be a good wife.
That is actually a good point. In the top of my head.
I would say that personally poor impulse control is a red flag.
I would say that lack of word is another one if she promises things just to save face and never goes through with them she probably won’t honor marriage commitment.
If she doesn’t have real friends like she is always bad mouthing her female friends that is probably a red flag of how she speaks about you when you are not around.
How she treats people lesser than her (in looks, status or money) is also a good indication.
If she spent too much time preoccupied for herself and doesn’t care about others that is narcissism.
If she tries to be the center of attention and cannot take a back seat and relax ever also red flag.
Anyone else care to chime in?

You are picking out pieces of a dogma that you do not like and blowing them up into huge debates. Reading through the manosphere, those are relatively minor concerns of larger topics.

In politics, we call this a “wedge issue” and the rejection of dark tactics is analogous to a “litmus test”

@Ana

“Given that many men in the manosphere are crushing their personalities and forsaking the chance of a relationship where they can find a woman that won’t bail when they share their weakness with them or won’t cheat with the first higher value male that cross their paths I would think trying to date the majority of less hypergamic women is more profitable in the long run than getting with crazy hotties that will put out in date one and who will be hot to look at in seconds time but that won’t be loyal unless the man maintains a 100% Alpha frame at all times, YMMV.”

Not entirely.

Lets take Bob who cannot date anyone.
Neither the 20 nor 80% of women. He is being rejected by 100% of women.

(I realize most women do not think this is possible.)

A man who finds a way to get with the 20% is not really forsaking his personality and ruining any relationship chances with the 80%.

You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.

FWIW, I’m going on 7+ years now Not quite your ten-year test, but pretty close.
Let me know in 3 more years and any third person activities even if with consent of your partner don’t count as staying faithful. BTW.

I’m actually being generous with SMP conditions with the 10 years. My real measure is a lifetime. My husband cheating on me in 10 years wouldn’t go down as “well it was about time’, YMMV.

but just like NAWALT broad generalizations don’t apply to every single individual.
Except this is not an AMALT is All Unrestricted Are Like That. I would apply the same to an unrestricted woman. So I think this is as good as saying All Nazis are racists, a generalization that is more accurate than others, YMMV.

@ADBG

In politics, we call this a “wedge issue” and the rejection of dark tactics is analogous to a “litmus test”.

There is value in approching any issue in an apolitical (or apartisan) fashion. I believe George Washington said something about that.

I’ve read about and studied the oldest profession a great deal, and if there must be 2 sides in a debate, I see nothing wrong a worst case assessment of all parties. At least then, no one side can honestly claim the ethical high ground, just that it’s “not as bad” as the other side.

So if this femo-angry-sphere (however that’s defined) is judged by it’s worst and most offensive members, and detractors seem to do just, extremists being very easy to dismiss, certainly that standard can be used for all points of view…

@Susan

“How often do you think that men who can attract zero women make their way into tapping the most hypergamous 20%?”

I didn’t say that.
I think most of them just give up and die.

What I did say was that a warning a man who is trying to succeed with woman from any technique that a group of woman will not like him for it is a hollow threat.

They already don’t like him.

Can’t lose what you never had.

@GM

I’m not sure how median (6) could be high.

By definition, it isn’t. And it’s just a number without explanation; surveys never dig that deeply. And it’s 4 for married men, and 2 or 3 for married women, BTW.

But if someone’s sexual history is an important character trait, and around here it seems to be the only thing of consequence in a potential wife, N + context may be the most useful combo of all. That and, whether one smokes.

Assuming N follows the baseball metaphor, and we can dispense with this “hookup” shit, N romances probably stacks up far better than N drunken mistakes WRT relationship attractiveness.

IMUO, of course!

It is very possible for a man to ruin himself for monogamous intimacy via promiscuity.

I. You’re likely to experience a more dramatic drop in your physical attraction to a woman after having sex with her.

Yeah….I was just answering your question:

I don’t see why those men would even care to marry,

Anyways, out in the real world, there are a whole host of reasons a relationship/marriage might succeed or fail that go beyond a particular value for male N or 5-20% differentials in sexual “satisfaction”.

My best friend just broke off his engagement, and there were a number of problems, but the primary one was the massive personality difference as he is an extreme extravert, and she was very introverted which made for a massive cocktail of friction, tension, insecurity, and clinginess in social situations. It wouldn’t shock me if extrovert/introvert pairing often result in high levels of dissatisfaction because of the different priority placed on “socializing” but as you well know the pairing can work also.

AFAIK, financial reasons are still at the top of the list for many marriage breakups so assessing compatibility there probably is more important than either sociosexuality or personality characteristics.

Anyways, like I said earlier, one can filter however one pleases. I understand well that at least here, the unrestricted and/or high N man has become a SMP bogeyman of sorts. FWIW, that guy in real life often differs materially from the caricature you describe.

-Too co-dependent on her friends.
This one depends on the kind of friend,IMO. Some people sadly have co-dependent personalities if she is not depending on friends,she will depend on her family, the Kardashians or you. If her friends are restricted girls with a good head in their shoulders you want her to continue to have them around as a second life of defense against any temptation,YMMV.

I’d say I don’t have a greatest hits problem. The best sex was with the gf I loved. Next best sex was with a gf I liked a lot. Then there was one who I was really infatuated and wanting to date but it didn’t work out. Those are the 3 most memorable partners and they were all achieved in the context of having or seeking an LTR. A lot of the more casual N’s were good and enjoyable (and a few weren’t) but they mostly blend together and aren’t this highlight reel going through my head.

For me (and I can only speak for me) a lot of that hunger for experiencing different women has been satiated and it’s more like I know that I’m not missing that much because for me sex in a loving reln is much better than casual.

But I’m not an incurable promiscuous who always needs new pussy.

“Better a good herd or a strong family with values than Snooki, YMMV”

@Ana

Maybe so. Then, it comes down to also knowing what circle of people she is around.
Sad but True.
V

“I wonder what the preselection effect would be in the eyes of their female SMP equivalents? Does dropping one’s sexual standards like that mean + attractive + relationship points?”

@MM

Probably not the type of guy, they would bring home to meet their Dad.
I can see him pulling out the shot gun now. lol.

Thanks Susan! I’m about to move from S TX back up to the DC Metro area, I’ve had an interesting time in the deep south the last couple of years.

Anyway, the whole thing makes me think of the role confidence levels play in daily life. They say that part of the reason fighter pilots are so cocky is because they actually have to be to be successful at their job. Every time they fly they have to believe they’re the best out there, because there’s so little room for self doubt. So they select for that when choosing pilots and cultivate it in their training, along with the actual flying and whatnot.

And then you look at religion. I’ve never been too religious. What I think is amazing is what people can accomplish though, when operating on faith. There’s something to be said for that, and I don’t think it’s too much different emotionally than someone who’s acting with irrationally high levels of self confidence for other reasons.

I think that’s all relevant when you’re talking about introspective types because the conclusions we draw and the things we tell ourselves have such a huge impact on who we are.

As far as that goes in the dating world…I find that you really have to show that side in moderation with almost everyone, and can only open up once you’ve established your extrovert cred. Depending on the type of person you’re looking for of course.