The Introspective Man

July 8, 2013

Think about it, bro.

Posted on July 2, 2013 by Jessica Hagy
 
introspection

Definition of INTROSPECTION

: a reflective looking inward : an examination of one’s own thoughts and feelings

 

Synonyms: 

  • self-contemplation
  • self-examination
  • self-observation
  • self-questioning
  • self-reflection
  • self-scrutiny
  • self-searching
  • soul-searching

The ancient Greeks understood the value of introspection, as evidenced in the aphorism “Know thyself.” According to Plato, Socrates said that “the unexamined life is not worth living.”

Of course, one can take navel gazing too far. Introspection can easily become self-condemnation at one extreme, stifling growth. It can lead to self-pity and a victim mentality.

At the other extreme, it can lead to total self-absorption, which brings us right back to douchebaggery in a boomerang effect.

Still, self-examination and self-awareness are key ingredients of good character. When dating and seeking a relationship  partner, ask yourself this question:

Does he actively seek ways to be a better man by examining his thoughts, feelings and behavior?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Does he actively seek ways to be a better man by examining his thoughts, feelings and behavior?

    How would you know? Among other things, allowing doubt about oneself to show is not an attractor. So, if that is true, any self-improvement via introspection is best kept under wraps. All you see is the manifested improvement with no idea where it originated.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How would you know? Among other things, allowing doubt about oneself to show is not an attractor.

      I don’t think that self-awareness is the same as self-doubt. One can take on new projects, learn new skills, get involved in the community, or any number of things without being plagued by self-doubt.

      However, you make a good point. Douchebaggery is an attractor for some women. Narcissists do better getting phone numbers from strangers than non-narcissists do. Of course, they’re strictly STR material, which is the point of the post.

      Zero self-doubt = zero relationship potential.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    RA…maybe by discussing his *prior* behavior, ie from several years ago, in current perspective?

  • Abbot

    “Does he actively seek ways to be a better man by examining his thoughts, feelings and behavior?”

    “Certain” women will never know since “better man” initiatives typically include weeding out those soaked in wanton promiscuous behavior.

    .

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.

    Synonyms:

    ■self-contemplation
    ■self-examination
    ■self-observation
    ■self-questioning
    ■self-reflection
    ■self-scrutiny
    ■self-searching
    ■soul-searching

    Taking on projects or acquiring new skills are not included.
    The article is about filtering for guys who are doing the internal assessments with an eye to self-improvement.
    From the outside, one might see improvement. But the question is about whether the guy is doing the internal assessing. How would you know?
    Maybe he’s always been like that–good–but the issue hasn’t previously arisen. Maybe he’s always had the capacity but never needed it until now. Maybe he lay awake trying to figure some way of being a better person and it showed. Difference in origin isn’t apparent.
    Unless he wants to talk about it.

    A guy listens better. Is it more wonderful if he tells you he thought about listening better and did, or is that meaningless, or is it a negative? Suppose he listens better. Anything else matter?

    You can’t improve without acknowledging shortcomings to yourself. Not sure how that goes with confidence, if you have to make sure the woman knows about your struggle. Sounds like it wouldn’t take much to get to advertising emo. Ick.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Taking on projects or acquiring new skills are not included.
      The article is about filtering for guys who are doing the internal assessments with an eye to self-improvement.
      From the outside, one might see improvement. But the question is about whether the guy is doing the internal assessing. How would you know?

      Yes, self-improvement is the desired outcome of introspection.

      If a man is improving himself, by expanding his mind or his character, focusing on his fitness or his work or any long-term goal, I think we can assume he is an introspective sort. People who are not introspective are stagnant, and that is easy to spot in anyone.

      People who behave in a cocky or selfish manner signal self-satisfaction, and that is never attractive for a relationship.

      Sounds like it wouldn’t take much to get to advertising emo. Ick.

      No, introspection should be private. The man who strives to better himself behaves differently than the man who is delighted with himself as is, and IMO the level of introspection is easily inferred. For example, I could list all of my friends and acquaintances and easily place each one in a category of “introspective” vs. “not introspective.”

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    I was talking with a woman I’d worked with some time in the past, discussing a third party that she was going to be doing a project with.

    ME: Yeah, he’s real bright and focused. Got promoted pretty fast, and a bit of a spoiled brat, though.

    SHE: I can related to that. I used to be a bit of a spoiled brat myself.

    ME: Glad you realize it. (both laugh)

    I think that’s an example of showing introspection without undercutting the projection of self-confidence (of which she had plenty)

  • Richard Aubrey

    I think the only fault one can profitably acknowledge is an excess of humility.

    So the question is now at what point in a relationship–or an acquaintance–can a woman see a change in a man which would allow the inference of introspection? Until you know a lot about a guy, you won’t know what is an improvement and what he’s been like for years. Both are good, presuming they’re good, but how will you know the origin? And which would be better?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      can a woman see a change in a man which would allow the inference of introspection?

      For me, it’s not the actual progress that informs, but the striving to something better.

  • BuenaVista

    Quiet, by Susan Cain (a study of tension between a society that pathologizes introversion, and overly celebrates extroversion), changed the way I live, manage and parent. It’s also changed the way I negotiate, and I believe this applies to relationships.

    Socially, and professionally, I’ve found it useful to have a set of skills that I term “faux-extroversion”; it’s much easier to initiate a personal dialogue if one does more than hang back, observe and have interior dialogues. It’s much easier to get customers, and it’s much easier to, in the main, to manage staff. (Though I note that my backtest reveals that my most successful staff relationships are with natural introverts with critical thinking skills who have learned to communicate well.)

    But natural introversion carries a necessary piece of self-knowledge: social interactions can be exhausting. We’re really like cars without an alternator: the batteries run down after too much hobnobbing, just as a car without an alternator shortly depletes battery voltage to a dysfunctional state.

    I question the “introversion-douchebag” dichotomy, though PUAs conflate being an alpha man-dog with extroversion. As Vox notes, they *may* be attention whores (bad for a relationship) but they need not be. I know a lot of good people who are energized by social interaction rather than depleted. The best personal relationship in my life was with a natural extrovert, and while our differences occasionally created tension (the venn diagram of our preferred social life required the two of us to compromise and negotiate who was in our overlap), in the main I found it to be a superb mating of opposite qualities. Of course, she was, at her core, a profoundly kind extrovert (again, I’m challenging the notion that extroversion = douche), just as I attempted to be a kind and curious introvert.

    The most charismatic and attractive extrovert I ever met was a man who was a natural introvert (he was an artist and musician who pursued a life in business). He never reconciled the tension between the two roles and drank himself to death at 54. Drinking became his quiet place — not a good thing. (“Alcohol is the poor man’s symphony” — William James.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course, she was, at her core, a profoundly kind extrovert (again, I’m challenging the notion that extroversion = douche), just as I attempted to be a kind and curious introvert.

      I’m highly extraverted and I hope I’m not a douche. (I acknowledge that I can get a little bitchy sometimes, but this is temporary.)

      I often find myself in the position of pointing out the negatives associated with extraversion, as it correlates with promiscuity and a variety of other undesirable behaviors. The most charming sociopaths are undoubtedly highly extraverted. Some qualities that I prize in individuals are more likely to be found among introverts, I believe.

      For example, I have always found earnestness extremely attractive in males. As in, it’s an attraction trigger for me. I knew I was in love with my husband when he said something extremely earnest at our grad school lunch table (long before we dated). Perhaps I am unusual in finding earnestness a component of charm, while finding arrogance or conceit decidedly lacking in charm.

  • BuenaVista

    This week on Susan Cain’s web site a Wharton prof is celebrated:

    “It turns out that superstar organizational psychologist Adam Grant, youngest tenured professor at Wharton, and author of the New York Times bestseller “Give and Take“, has been researching this question for years, and has a groundbreaking new prescription for how to relate: the power of powerless communication. (Here is Adam’s fascinating TEDx talk on this very subject).

    “Grant says that people who pose questions instead of answers, admit their shortcomings, and use tentative instead of assertive speech are some of the world’s most powerful communicators. People who use “powerless” communication styles fall into two categories – some are doormats. But just as many are superstars.

    “It boils down to this insight: When people think you’re trying to influence them, they put their guard up. But when they feel you’re trying to help them, or to muse your way to the right answer, or to be honest about your own imperfections, they open up to you. They hear what you have to say.”

    http://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/

    I think that there’s a lot of crossover between the aspects of personality necessary to think and lead, and think and love.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      I am fascinated by the work of Adam Grant. He found that “givers” – people who are generous with no expectation of reciprocity –
      are found among both the least and most successful in business.

      Higher rates of giving were predictive of higher unit profitability, productivity, efficiency, and customer satisfaction, along with lower costs and turnover rates. When employees act like givers, they facilitate efficient problem solving and coordination and build cohesive, supportive cultures that appeal to customers, suppliers, and top talent alike.

      http://hbr.org/2013/04/in-the-company-of-givers-and-takers/

      Interestingly, (from my POV), traditional business has rewarded the takers – the agentic, driven, “take no prisoners” aggressor. Grant explains why the dynamic is changing:

      There are at least three major trends behind the rise in interdependence.

      First is the growth of project-based work: organizations are bringing people together to collaborate on temporary teams, making interaction skills particularly important in shaping the results these short-term groups achieve.

      Second is the shift from a manufacturing economy to a service and knowledge economy: four out of every five Americans work in service roles, where meeting the needs of clients and customers is a defining feature of success.

      Third is the advent of online social networks: we can now track the reputations of job applicants, potential business partners, and service providers by identifying common connections on LinkedIn and tracking their behavior on social media.The challenge for management is to remove incentives for taking, which are common in most organizations.

      One must give strategically to be effective (and presumably more successful):

      To assume the role of a giver, the first step is to gain a deeper understanding of what other people need. From there, the key is to figure out how our expertise, resources, and connections might best fulfill their needs. Then, if they offer to pay it back, ask them to pay it forward instead. Fascinating studies led by Robb Willer and Mark Weber reveal that when a whole group or network operates according to giving norms, the pie is often expanded for all involved.

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    Douchbags – low to moderate IQ extroverts.

    Introspective – high-IQ introverts.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I wonder if a practical exercise in the introspection/self-development cycle would be to discuss a person’s CV and to see if the achievements were balanced over an extended period of past-present-future goals.

    Would someone who relied heavily on a concentrated burst of accomplishments from many years ago (generally speaking) be less self-development-introspective and more vulnerable to self-satisfied complacency than would someone who demonstrated that he was continually seeking new capabilities and challenges…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Would someone who relied heavily on a concentrated burst of accomplishments from many years ago (generally speaking) be less self-development-introspective and more vulnerable to self-satisfied complacency than would someone who demonstrated that he was continually seeking new capabilities and challenges…?

      An interesting question – don’t you think that certain types of people act more or less in a stable fashion over time? Perhaps it has to do with the nature of the accomplishments, e.g. turned 25 and got trust fund vs. turned 25 and founded new company. (I suspect this will bring out the entrepreneur haters again, oh well.)

  • BuenaVista

    BB: “Would someone who relied heavily on a concentrated burst of accomplishments from many years ago (generally speaking) be less self-development-introspective and more vulnerable to self-satisfied complacency than would someone who demonstrated that he was continually seeking new capabilities and challenges…?”

    Cain asserts this in a couple of ways, one hilarious. She (a Harvard Law grad, and proud of it) ridicules the culture of talking without fear or even earned understanding that is defined at Harvard Business School as a necessary component of leadership. I have worked with these people for 20+ years (on the opposite side of the table and briefly during at project at Bain). They are to thoughtful leadership as Powerpoint is to thought. But they tend to be oblivious as to the difference between talking about something, and making something work.

    Notably, and more seriously, they trade on the value of that one school acceptance letter for decades that follow. (As did two Rhodes Scholars I have employed.) (Footnote: the most remarkable business person I know was a Rhodes finalist, and the act of losing in the final round seems to have had the opposite effect on his motivation and performance.) The patina and sustaining network of an acceptance letter, received at age 25, adds significant professional value, independent of actual achievement or personal development.

    Eventually the party ends, however. Ex- #2 has been thrown out of every job she’s ever had (though McKinsey was nicer about it as they are strategic in building their network even with the associates who are passed over, because they know those people will hire McKinsey when they go over to the operating side). It didn’t matter until recently, however. I would say the equivalent of a professional Wall (equivalent to an SMV wall) rears its head at about 40. So her Baker Scholar award at 25 sustained her from one job to the next as she failed upward — and she failed upward extremely well; her apex was as CMO at a top 5 Wall Street bank, where she again face planted. But they threw her out too. She’s been on the beach for 15 months. It seems that in work, as in love, it’s best to actually accomplish something in life by age 40, or watch the train leave the station.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Alas, I know the Rhodey world quite well. The RS is basically told that he has it made for life when he is awarded the scholarship, and thus the rest of life can reveal the “Matthew Effect”/accumulation of advantage.

    The RS opens the first door to prestigious job #1, prestigious job #1 opens the door to elite White House fellowship #2, elite White House fellowship #2 opens the door to prestigious job #3, and so forth.

    I like it when someone says “fuck it” and jumps tracks to a totally different environment, one in which he or she has to start from scratch again and the previous accomplishment means little or nothing.

  • BuenaVista

    “Alas, I know the Rhodey world quite well…. like it when someone says “fuck it” and jumps tracks to a totally different environment, one in which he or she has to start from scratch again and the previous accomplishment means little or nothing.”

    Yeah, I assumed that from your circumspect bio on your web site. I hope I wasn’t rude. Both guys I hired have bounced from job to job without effect; I too was then affected by their RS halo. I no longer trust anyone who announces his halo before his body of work. This seems to be what truly successful people do.

    Karl Marlantes is a great example of a guy who bounced completely out of the RS normal orbit, then attempted to re-enter post-tour. Now I’m not sure if he knows if he belongs in either. He’s struggled a bit.

    But in the end, I think he will be remembered for writing the best novel in English on war, or at least the best since Stephen Crane, and winning every commendation up to and including the Silver Star. The Rhodes will be an interesting anecdote. So again, it will be Marlantes’ body of work, moreso than his acceptance letters from Duke and the Rhodes Committee.

    I failed in my final interview, rather spectacularly I should add. I still remember the sensation of my head spinning erratically while seated in a room alone with five prior winners; I cringe to this day. I was so not ready for prime time. Oh well.

  • JP

    “She’s been on the beach for 15 months. It seems that in work, as in love, it’s best to actually accomplish something in life by age 40, or watch the train leave the station.”

    This is how the legal profession works.

    The problem is that you now have 40 years of life left and nothing meaningful to do.

    Game over.

  • Jonny

    “People who behave in a cocky or selfish manner signal self-satisfaction, and that is never attractive for a relationship.”

    I don’t know about that. The cocky people I knew always seems to have the hottest chicks. Once you get them, the women can have their imaginary relationships, just saying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The cocky people I knew always seems to have the hottest chicks.

      Yes, those are STRs. I’m focusing on LTRs here.

  • Jayn Rand

    “The problem is that you now have 40 years of life left and nothing meaningful to do.”

    Ahhhh….. is that why Americans are so youth obsessed?

  • JP

    ““The problem is that you now have 40 years of life left and nothing meaningful to do.”

    Ahhhh….. is that why Americans are so youth obsessed?”

    Partially.

    See, once you hit 35-40, you have to have set up the next step or it’s onto the industrial scrapheap with you.

    Old people are icky and smell funny.

    The poor woman in BV’s example is now at the end of the line and must now face the consequences of her failure.

  • Jayn Rand

    Well JP, I came under a lot of heat before for saying that middle age is the time to prepare for old age and death. Since there is no culture of self-realization here, they took it to mean I wanted 45 year olds to throw in the towel and sit around all day writing out wills and picking grave stone markers.

    Middle age is a time to rejoice in the waning of sex hormones and cultivate an inner life of the mind and perform the function of “wise elder” to the younger set.

    Instead here you’ve got 50 year old dudes creepin’ ’round, tryna’ date and get laid with Viagra, and basically tryna’ act like 22 year olds.

    Yes I used the c-word because that is what 50 year olds who do the above are – CREEPS!

    Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.

    Take your rightful position as “uncle” and be at peace with yourselves.

  • JP

    “Middle age is a time to rejoice in the waning of sex hormones and cultivate an inner life of the mind and perform the function of “wise elder” to the younger set.”

    My entire youth was spent trying to cultivate an inner life of the mind.

    I’m kind of tired of it.

  • JP

    “Instead here you’ve got 50 year old dudes creepin’ ’round, tryna’ date and get laid with Viagra, and basically tryna’ act like 22 year olds.

    Yes I used the c-word because that is what 50 year olds who do the above are – CREEPS!”

    I skipped this part of life and went straight to middle age.

  • JP

    “Take your rightful position as “uncle” and be at peace with yourselves.”

    Many men are parents of 10 year olds at this point.

    Some are parents of 5 year olds.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Many men are parents of 10 year olds at this point.

    Some are parents of 5 year olds.”

    Its not right or natural.

    20s and 30s are for having kids. 50s are for having grandkids.

    Y’all do things backwards here.

  • Abbot

    “Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.”

    ONLY because women of that age can’t pull it off. Therefore, those spitting-mad ineffective insults are irrelevant and dismissed.

  • JP

    “Its not right or natural.

    20s and 30s are for having kids. 50s are for having grandkids.”

    You need to dedicate your 20’s to career development.

    For instance, a doctor might just be starting out in private practice on his own at 30, after a long hard decade of career advancement.

    Maybe he’s ready to get married at 35 or 40.

    Plus, if you are in you mid-20’s, you still have that $100,000 in debt to get rid of. Need to build your career first!

  • Abbot

    “Some are parents of 5 year olds.”

    Many are just getting started with their loverly fertile nubile worthy wives.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.”

    “ONLY because women of that age can’t pull it off.”

    No, that’s not the only reason. The core reason is that the culture is off, does things backwards and in reverse, and has no higher basis other than satisfaction of the base, animalistic needs. Because your culture pedastalizes the animal life, even when your hormones subside, because you have no inner life, higher purpose or high culture, you don’t know what to do with yourselves other than try to recreate the sex hormones of youth. That’s where Viagra comes in.

    There’s a whole lot of people around the world who see or hear about this “culture” and smack their heads in puzzlement.

    I’m doing more than smacking my or your head, I’m trying to impart wisdom to help you people find contentment and be at peace with a natural trajectory of human experience.

  • Jayn Rand

    “For instance, a doctor might just be starting out in private practice on his own at 30, after a long hard decade of career advancement.”

    Nonsense. All the doctors in my family, male and female, married and had kids in their 20s.

    Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    The point is that the 40+ person is hard pressed to find enough money in employment to live off of if they haven’t gained enough career capital.

    They could probably be “uncle” or “aunt” but their careers have obviously failed, so they’re going to be looked down upon. Who would want to take their advice?

    Also, what are you supposed to do from 60 to 100 in your framework, when you have no money, and no way to get any money?

  • JP

    @PJ:

    “Nonsense. All the doctors in my family, male and female, married and had kids in their 20s.

    Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.”

    Well, they’re not making any money in residency and generally have $200,000 in school debt.

    They want to be financially stable first.

  • Abbot

    “There’s a whole lot of people around the world who see or hear about this “culture” and smack their heads in puzzlement.”

    What they hear about are the “I fuck hear me roar” women and the men who are stuck with the crappy pickins.

    http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/feminism-and-desire-the-i-fuck-hear-me-roar-debate-517834212

    .

  • Abbot

    “Why can’t you people advance your careers and marry and have kids simultaneously like MOST of the worlds people do.”

    Most of the world is happily feminism-free.

  • JP

    @PJ:

    Plus, by about 35 to 45 some men are just now figuring out how to date women now that they actually have income and stability.

    So, they might not have had a chance when they were younger.

  • Abbot

    “some men are just now figuring out how to date women”

    If it needs to be figured out then its just not worth it

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    PJ, how did you end up in the U.S.? Do you find yourself often yearning to return to India? Do you want to marry an Indian gent?

    BV: I am embarrassed to admit that I have not read “Matterhorn” yet (!).

  • Jayn Rand

    “They want to be financially stable first.”

    If someone is working full time, particularly a doctor, they already ARE financially stable. If both parents are working, and both are doctors, then they are more than stable.

    You people use any excuse you can. It would be more honest and noble to just say, “we enjoy the single life until such and such an age”.

    BB,
    “PJ, how did you end up in the U.S.? Do you find yourself often yearning to return to India? Do you want to marry an Indian gent?”

    I return to South Asia (not just India, I have family all over that place) regularly. I actually don’t stay stateside most of the time as my work takes me all around the world.

    I already did marry an Indian gent. We are divorced. Not because of what Abbot will assume. We are best friends and plan on living together in old age. We divorced because of his mom. If anyone here knows about South Asian mothers-in-law, I don’t have to say more.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    PJ: forgive my barrage of questions, but what is the deal with South Asian mothers-in-law…? Do you want to marry again, or does the plan to eventually live with your ex make that option inappropriate? Do you find that your disgust with American culture has strengthened your attraction to South Asian men?

  • BuenaVista

    On Matterhorn:

    I’m a civilian, obviously, but have read widely and professionally in the literature of war and do some brainwork on the ‘contractor’ side of the IC, (which, as we’ve noticed lately, *is* the IC) so I have a social and professional set that includes an unusual martial cohort. Everyone to whom I’ve recommended it has been speechless. It’s one of those books that can only speak for itself.

    More interestingly, in April I had dinner (Red Rooster, amazing supper club in Harlem) with two women friends who were setting up the first Aspen Writers confab, and the theme this year was the literature of war. (My editor trusts my eye but like most NYC intellectuals had never heard of Matterhorn, mostly because the subject matter is verboten.) So Matterhorn was my book recommendation for the evening, and Marlantes for their conference. Within a week they had read the book and invited Marlantes — and he spoke last month. When my dad (WWII Navy) was visiting he read it in two 12-hour stints. It takes longer to read than one might think because you have to stand up and walk around from time to time.

    Like Hopper’s paintings, this novel is sui generis.

    Amusing note on Matterhorn: So Marlantes has been writing the book for 30 years. He finally resolves that it is finished. He sends it to NY for conventional publishing. An editor lady tells him, “Like, it’s really good, shows a lot of promise, but can you change it to Afghanistan and give the hero a love interest?” He instead published it with a small academic house on the west coast, and sold about 5000 copies. Because of that it got picked up (absent the “change it to Afghanistan” thing) and published by a major house.

    It really is the best novel of war, in English, I’ve ever read. Well, Beowulf is better, but my Old English has atrophied and I can’t read it properly anymore. Crane is more concise but then he wasn’t a company commander, either. For Whom the Bell Tolls is positively silly by comparison. The guy who taught me to fly was at Pleiku and he just said, “I couldn’t finish it.”

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, I remember hearing a woman say that she liked men who routinely took on new projects and challenges, because that allowed for a mate to come in at the ground-floor of a new endeavor and to get involved, thus forming a partnership that faced the “world” together.

    Someone who did not consider himself a work-in-progress was less attractive to her (ceteris paribus) because said person was A) typically less enthusiastic and youthful in outlook, and B) might not offer have this kind of lifestyle access point or opening that another person could hook to in order to form a team.

    What do you think? It definitely resonated for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I think that’s a great point about partnership. In my experience, it’s important (and enjoyable) when couples share interests – too much independence is not good for the relationship (though some is).

      Another thing that occurs to me is that a person can teach their partner – for example, Mr. HUS was a real fan of Hitchcock films when we met, and I’d just seen The Birds and Rear Window. Together we saw most of the others in art houses in NY, which was great fun. I guess I was the project in that case, but that dynamic can work well too.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    BV: your erudition is extraordinary. Downloading the book as we speak

  • BuenaVista

    SW:

    I don’t see a difference between “higher rates of giving” in personal and professional life. So although I haven’t read Grant, only his summaries, I concur with that and think that it makes sense in all aspects — if one is solving for the long-haul. I am the polar opposite of my business partner (he’s a refugee mathematician, short, unathletic, bald and Jewish) — and we are shortly to become a longer term couple than, well, any other couple I’ve been a party to. But “higher rates of giving” certainly describes how we relate personally and to our staff.

    In respect of your second extract, the one that is compelling to me is #1. All of work is project-related now, if one is doing rarified cognitive elite stuff. The assets walk out the front door every day and they don’t have to come back. Any asshole who acts like Jack Welch (let’s not discuss Suzie, please) or Henry Ford will shortly find himself missing the entire R&D group. That’s okay if you want to manufacture incandescent bulbs or half-tons for a living.

    I do believe that original work effort in industrial spaces requires a talent management outlook more akin to Hollywood or the theatre than what works at Lockheed (not Kelly Johnson’s little corner of Lockheed) or the Pentagon. Harvey Weinstein may be an asshole (he is), but he is old testament ruthless in his ferocity to protect the talent he has decided he cannot do without (Tarantino, Blanchett) (my information is a few years old).

    #2 I reject because companies for all time have sucked up to customers. Today the customers don’t believe the account managers, and care only for the quality of the product. Customer service can be summarized as “does the shit work? Hell yes. It works every time.”

    #3 I reject because, well, I have no interest in hiring anyone who strut on Facebook. Maybe it’s different with women execs. But I’ve never met a smart person who takes pictures of himself or herself getting fucked up at a party.

    Thanks for reading my long postings. I think this introversion/extroversion dynamic reveals much.

    P.S. So, you’re an extrovert, eh? Isn’t it painful hammering away at a blog, domain of introverts (and freaks)? And my bet is that your husband is a natural introvert who learned to negotiate some vein of the cognitive elite, more hospitable to natural extroverts. If I am correct: Irony much?

    I (son of poet and editor, total introvert except between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m.) loved being married to a kind extrovert. And thus I tie this indulgent rambling back to the theme of the day. Or so I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      #2 I reject because companies for all time have sucked up to customers. Today the customers don’t believe the account managers, and care only for the quality of the product. Customer service can be summarized as “does the shit work? Hell yes. It works every time.”

      Well I think there’s been a huge move away from manufacturing widgets and towards servicing the customer directly. I’d wager that a much higher percentage of employees today have some direct responsibility to answer to the customer. In fact, the number of employees at customer service call centers alone must be staggering, outsourcing and rude operators notwithstanding.

      I recently had a rather extraordinary customer service experience – it was too intense, I felt hounded. I called Fujitsu with a scanner problem, and after taking their advice to clean it with 90% alcohol (which worked), I had no need of more contact. They called me three more times to see if my problem had been resolved to my satisfaction. Then I got a survey asking for feedback, so I reported that it was a bit much, and that I had spent several extra minutes on those calls, a waste of my time. The next thing I knew the boss of the service rep called me to assure me that she is an excellent rep, and that they were very sorry to have troubled me. I confirmed that all is well with the scanner. All together, it was five phone calls and an email survey for a small bit of troubleshooting!

      P.S. So, you’re an extrovert, eh? Isn’t it painful hammering away at a blog, domain of introverts (and freaks)? And my bet is that your husband is a natural introvert who learned to negotiate some vein of the cognitive elite, more hospitable to natural extroverts. If I am correct: Irony much?

      You are correct about Mr. HUS – a natural introvert who has done just that. Interestingly, as he nears 60, he finds that the relationship management part of his job is his favorite.

      I like the dynamic here, I don’t find it painful. I suppose it helps that as the host, I am extraverted. I can chat almost anybody up, online or off, and I enjoy it. It’s true that quite a few wackos find HUS from time to time, but we do our best to filter for them.

  • BuenaVista

    Whoops, I have read Grant. Just a different one, whose first name was “Ulysses”. Highly recommended as well. Many people still think it was written by his publisher, Twain.

  • JP

    “Whoops, I have read Grant. Just a different one, whose first name was “Ulysses”. Highly recommended as well. Many people still think it was written by his publisher, Twain.”

    His name was Hiram.

  • BuenaVista

    Oh, for goodness sakes. He was accepted at West Point, commissioned and elected as U.S. Grant.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I often find myself in the position of pointing out the negatives associated with extraversion, as it correlates with promiscuity and a variety of other undesirable behaviors. The most charming sociopaths are undoubtedly highly extraverted. Some qualities that I prize in individuals are more likely to be found among introverts, I believe.

    I don’t think extroversion/introversion necessarily correlates with level of introspection. I’ve known plenty of introspective extroverts, and plenty of lazy, complacent introverts. My experience tells me there’s more variability within the groups than between them.

    I think with extroverts, it’s just easier to notice their faults since they’re broadcast louder and to a larger audience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think with extroverts, it’s just easier to notice their faults since they’re broadcast louder and to a larger audience.

      That explains all my haters. :)

  • Tilikum

    so, a few thoughts.

    extroverts (80%) of the population cant be introspective. they don’t experience the world that way, they function at the surface and wholly on experiential input, they literally can’t. thankfully they wouldn’t be on a site like this or the manosphere because they cant understand that there is something more than beer and fucking or beer and complaining. oh, and video games.

    it feels like this is a shot at damage control and is being conducted as another attempt (and a necessary one) and calibrating a woman filter for ltr minded men.

    the reality that is being hidden though is that one you enact all the filters, less than maybe 5% of men have any value. yes ladies, 95% of you will settle.

    the SMP is a harsh place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tilikum

      extroverts (80%) of the population cant be introspective. they don’t experience the world that way, they function at the surface and wholly on experiential input, they literally can’t. thankfully they wouldn’t be on a site like this or the manosphere because they cant understand that there is something more than beer and fucking or beer and complaining. oh, and video games.

      As an introspective extrovert, I beg to differ. That’s not the distribution in any case. It’s around half.

      http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm

      Some more interesting research from Adam Grant, who explored whether extroverts are better at sales:

      The answer, in new research from Adam Grant, the youngest tenured professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School of Management, is far more intriguing. In a study that will be published later this year in the journal Psychological Science, Grant collected data from sales representatives at a software company. He began by giving reps an often-used personality assessment that measures introversion and extroversion on a 1-to-7 scale, with 1 being most introverted and 7 being most extroverted.

      Then he tracked their performance over the next three months. The introverts fared worst; they earned average revenue of $120 per hour. The extroverts performed slightly better, pulling in $125 per hour. But neither did nearly as well as a third group: the ambiverts.

      Ambiverts, a term coined by social scientists in the 1920s, are people who are neither extremely introverted nor extremely extroverted. Think back to that 1-to-7 scale that Grant used. Ambiverts aren’t 1s or 2s, but they’re not 6s or 7s either. They’re 3s, 4s and 5s. They’re not quiet, but they’re not loud. They know how to assert themselves, but they’re not pushy.

      In Grant’s study, ambiverts earned average hourly revenues of $155, beating extroverts by a healthy 24 percent. In fact, the salespeople who did the best of all, earning an average of $208 per hour, had scores of 4.0, smack in the middle of the introversion-extroversion scale.

      What’s more, when Grant plotted total sales revenue against the scale, he found that revenue peaked in the center and fell off considerably as personality moved toward either the introverted or extroverted poles. Those high in extroversion fared scarcely better than those high in introversion, and both lagged far behind their counterparts in the moderate middle.

      The distribution of introverts and extroverts in the population looks eerily like the results Grant found plotting revenue across his 1-to-7 scale. Some of us are heavy introverts. Some of us are stalwart extroverts. But the vast majority of us are ambiverts.

      As so often happens in our discussions, the binary model is insufficient.

      it feels like this is a shot at damage control and is being conducted as another attempt (and a necessary one) and calibrating a woman filter for ltr minded men.

      That’s interesting phrasing. So many in the sphere focus on damage control, or alternatively, vengeance. I actually don’t concern myself with either. I’m simply answering the question “What makes a good mate?” I’m attempting to give young women some metrics for an environment where the sex ratio is unfavorable to women.

      the reality that is being hidden though is that one you enact all the filters, less than maybe 5% of men have any value.

      This is a misandrist comment, and I disagree with it.

  • JP

    Because he was too shy (or something) to have them change his name when it got listed wrong.

    It was a bureaucratic error that he failed to correct.

    And don’t get me started on his adventures on Wall Street.

  • BuenaVista

    SW: On projects: “I think that’s a great point about partnership. In my experience, it’s important (and enjoyable) when couples share interests …”

    When I was married — whoops, yes, I’m not — my wife and I used to say, “Build a house, get a divorce.” Later we amended it to, “Build an addition, get a divorce.” (Later I amended it again: Start a company, get a divorce.”)

    The point was that people with nothing going on in the emotional/romantic department would seize on a “project”: A project to divert them from the existential nightmare that was their proximity. They’d build the house and then be staring at each other in confusion. They’d spend $500/s.f. on the new kitchen — and still not know how to cook or why they should cook (cuz then they’d have to eat dinner together). Ergo: They still didn’t know how to live together, even under better material circumstances.

    So I just want to be with a girl I can talk to and laugh with in the TSA checkpoint at 5:30 a.m. after a 2.5 hour drive, while some flunky asshole puts his hands in my crotch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Sadly, many couples have a kid in hopes of saving the marriage.

  • JP

    @Tilikum:

    “extroverts (80%) of the population cant be introspective. they don’t experience the world that way, they function at the surface and wholly on experiential input, they literally can’t.”

    No, that’s “Sensing” vs. “iNtuition”.

    Try again.

    And I just want to point out that this stupid Myers-Briggs thing is not exactly persistent across lifetimes.

    Hello!

  • J

    Well, they’re not making any money in residency and generally have $200,000 in school debt. They want to be financially stable first.

    People used to have more tolerance for financial insecurity. My doctor cousin, now in his sixties, fathered all his kids during his residency. Many of his peers did as well. Yeah, there ws some struggle involved but they knew they’d be fine eventually. I don’t think they had a lot of school debt though. School used to be cheaper.

  • Hope

    JP, Myers Briggs is not stupid. It is actually very deep and interesting. It’s also kind of reads like a song or chemistry chart.

    http://personalityjunkie.com/functions-ni-ti-fi-si-ne-te-fe-se/

    I am Ni, Fe, Ti, and Se.

  • JP

    The question is whether it is actual personality that is persistent across time.

    It seems that people move from from one MTBI sector to another across their lifetime.

    I think that the Big 5 is the current go-to model for personality.

    “Stupid” is a technical term that means it doesn’t do quite what it claims to do, meaning that it’s not a good measure for specific human personality that endures across the lifetime.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Not to liken marriage to an overseas deployment with a small team, but some of the psychological factors that come up are probably similar. Here is a (fairly long, but well worth your time IMHO) look at how an Australian elite force looks to break through the superficial and expose the long-term character traits in potential members:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY08ZXSO1CI

    The confidence that is appreciated is not the loud bravado of the faux-alpha, backslapping party reptile, but a quiet self-possession and disciplined mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The confidence that is appreciated is not the loud bravado of the faux-alpha, backslapping party reptile, but a quiet self-possession and disciplined mind.

      Both qualities that can only result from introspection!

  • Hope

    I haven’t seen any rigorous study that claims people’s “big five” personality traits stay constant through life. If you have such references I’d love to see it.

    Susan, interesting about the ambivert vs. strong I/E with respect to sales. Have they reproduced this result in non-software fields? It is possible that selling software is somewhat different from other sales.

  • Hope

    Wikipedia quote:

    “recent research and meta-analyses of previous studies, however, indicate that change occurs in all five traits at various points in the lifespan. The new research shows evidence for a maturation effect. On average, levels of Agreeableness and Conscientiousness typically increase with time, whereas Extraversion, Neuroticism, and Openness tend to decrease.[64] Research has also demonstrated that changes in Big Five personality traits depend on the individual’s current stage of development. For example, levels of agreeableness and conscientiousness demonstrate a negative trend during childhood and early adolescence before trending upwards during late adolescence and into adulthood.[65] In addition to these group effects, there are individual differences: different people demonstrate unique patterns of change at all stages of life.[66]”

  • JP

    So, neither Myers-Briggs nor the Big 5 thingy work.

    And in addition, different people have entirely different developmental arcs.

  • BuenaVista

    “Sadly, many couples have a kid in hopes of saving the marriage.”

    Or, in situations where the man has certain beliefs, to force the occurrence of a marriage. Works pretty well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Or, in situations where the man has certain beliefs, to force the occurrence of a marriage. Works pretty well.

      Ouch, I remember. I can hardly wrap my mind around that – it’s unconscionable to barter the life of an infant. You did the right thing, though I know you have paid dearly.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”I’d wager that a much higher percentage of employees today have some direct responsibility to answer to the customer. In fact, the number of employees at customer service call centers alone must be staggering, outsourcing and rude operators notwithstanding.”

    The average call center is so strictly routinized, regulated, and scripted that the “conversations” hardly count as genuine human contact at all. Your Fujitsu experience is unfortunately a rare exception. See my post Mindless Verbal Taylorism.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      “How may I exceed your expectations today?” Hilarious! What on earth to say to that? Just do your job to meet my expectations. To exceed them, you’ll need to do something extraordinary, like tell me I’ve just won a $5,000 gift certificate.

      Also, I agree about cashiers who ask if you found everything you were looking for. The real answer is always “no,” and yet I always say “yes” for the reason you gave – are they going to leap out from behind the register and go fetch the elusive item? Once I’ve resigned to checking out, I do not want to spend any more time there!

      Re Fujitsu, the rep had a strong Japanese accent. The supervisor who followed up did not, but I wondered whether the protocols were from Japanese HQ. She was by far the most polite and accommodating customer service rep I’ve ever dealt with.

  • J

    less than maybe 5% of men have any value

    Wow! Really?? That’s hard to prove, isn’t it?

  • Lokland

    @Susan/J

    “less than maybe 5% of men have any value
    Wow! Really?? That’s hard to prove, isn’t it?”

    If we consider that 20% of men pass the attractive bar and whittle down from there it is not that unreasonable a suggestion.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, if you have the time to watch the second installment of the documentary, they put those guys in a rugged, hilly part of the Australian bush and make them complete individual ruck marches. The alone time is explicitly designed to cause candidates to become introspective.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      The alone time is explicitly designed to cause candidates to become introspective.

      I’ve never done an Outward Bound thing, or a program where an individual goes off alone for a night into the wilderness, but it strikes me as similar in intent. Somehow introspection and self-reliance must be related…That makes me wonder how the non-introspective person who has unwarranted or at least untested confidence in his/her ability makes out. How do they deal with setbacks?

      And I can’t help but think of Thoreau here.

  • JP

    Hey, did “Girls” jump the shark yet?

    I’m pretty sure that it’s moment in the sun, along with Lena Dunham’s moment, is now over.

    I don’t know why, I just have a feeling…that it’s over.

    It will renew for another season (2014) and then fade away once everyone realizes that the third season is not nearly as good as the first and seems to have lost the plot and that the fourth season is even worse than the third season and actually has no plot.

    (And I’ve never actually watched the show.)

  • JP

    (I used my powers of introspection to make that Girls prediction!)

    (At least I think I used introspection. It could have been something else.)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    The sales study: average revenues of $155 or $208 or whatever per hour.

    Must have been a pretty simple sale. For someone selling complex big-ticket software, the lag between initial contact with the customer and the actual closing of the order is likely to be 6 months or longer, and the whole idea of revenue per hour would be meaningless. Ditto for other complex sales, whether MRI scanners or locomotives.

  • Revo Luzione

    I’m an introvert. An ISFP, to be precise. I’ve learned to bottle up any exterior presentation of introspection EXCEPT for deep, philosophical conversations that are not about my internal processes. While those processes were used to derive my position, my conversational partners don’t need to know that.

    I have developed a quiet confidence and carry myself with dignity and a bit of swagger, that has come from 20% “acting as if,” and 80% post-activity recapitulation & introspection. Again, you see the work product of introspection but not the introspection at all.

    Experience has taught me that women aren’t attracted when they see the man behind the curtain. Most women expect a finished work product, i.e. they want men to just “be” high-value men, and don’t want to know about the struggle to get there.

  • BuenaVista

    “I’ve learned to bottle up any exterior presentation of introspection EXCEPT for deep, philosophical conversations that are not about my internal processes.”

    Even here one must not disclose opinions that challenge the feminist imperative — even with one’s soul mate.

    I just smile and say, “You have no desire to talk about that subject, and neither do I.” Never, ever have I heard someone say, “You’re wrong, I can handle the truth.”

    It would be different in a tavern in Valentine, Nebraska, but I date educated women who only go to such places because they’re on my arm. Or their plane broke.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Don’t be using that feminine imperative vernacular ’round here.

  • Anacaona

    Re Fujitsu, the rep had a strong Japanese accent. The supervisor who followed up did not, but I wondered whether the protocols were from Japanese HQ. She was by far the most polite and accommodating customer service rep I’ve ever dealt with.
    My retired neighbors bought a dishwasher at Sears. They had been calling them for feedback for three days now even though they had the machine only for those three days. I think companies are terrified of losing customers. Problem is they are just screwing everyone that will only call if something went wrong and pampering the complainers that are looking for reasons to complain even if the machine works perfectly. Just my two cents.

  • Mike M.

    Sounds like a wise man should be introspective…but not let his date find out.

    And some of you people are starting to depress me. I’m 50…and while I don’t consider a 20-something an eligible date, 35 or so seems not unreasonable to at least try for.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      I’m 50…and while I don’t consider a 20-something an eligible date, 35 or so seems not unreasonable to at least try for.

      I agree! Aim high – if you have to adjust, you will. If I were 35, I would have no qualms about dating a man of 50.

  • Jayn Rand

    Speaking of the “introspective man” I just returned from the book store where I picked up a book written my a man describing the hell he and his children went through living with his alcohol wife who also suffered from sexual abuse in her childhood.

    However, BEFORE he was married to her, he was married to a psychologically stable woman (the mother of his children). He frivilously divorced her (frivorce), using the excuse that she had an affair.

    Here’s how that went down –

    He was a busy doctor and he and his wife were both working full time (or maybe she was going to school, I forget) and had drifted apart romantically. One day his wife said to him, “we need to talk.”

    She told him, “I’ve had an affair, but its over. I have chosen to leave him and be with you. ”

    Blah, blah, blah. When he grilled her as to “why” she said she was not sexually satisfied with him and he admitted that because they were both inexperienced virgins when they married very young, he probably was not a very pleasing lover.

    Nevertheless he was of course devastated and very angry and he vowed to himself that he would “get revenge” and at around the same time a new receptionist was hired at the hospital who looked like that full figured actress from Mad Men that Susan said she wants to hug.

    One thing led to another and those two ended up dating.

    Instead of being satisfied with “getting even” and “balancing the scale” he decides to divorce his wife and marry this receptionist without thinking for a minute what breaking up a family would do to his two little daughters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    FRIVORCE!

    The wife begged him to consider that it would be horrible for their children but he was determined to care more about himself than them so he went ahead with the divorce.

    Well, as he was a wealthy doctor and the wife didn’t have nearly as much money, he got FULL CUSTODY and the little girls went to live with him and their new “step-mom”.

    The rest of the book is about how this new wife and step-mom dragged them all to hell through neglect, abuse and drama off the charts due to her alcoholism.

    Its sad that this bastard CHOSE to expose his innocent children to such things but HE GOT WHAT HE DESERVED for putting family values and his children last and his own haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapiness first.

    Susan, I’m sorry but I can’t agree with you that divorce is the best option when a spouse has cheated WHEN the couple has kids.

    Scream, shout, get angry, get therapy, even have an affair yourself to even the score – but for god sake – work it out and STAY TOGETHER FOR THE SAKE OF THE KIDS!!!

  • JP

    “Susan, I’m sorry but I can’t agree with you that divorce is the best option when a spouse has cheated WHEN the couple has kids.

    Scream, shout, get angry, get therapy, even have an affair yourself to even the score – but for god sake – work it out and STAY TOGETHER FOR THE SAKE OF THE KIDS!!!”

    Um, yeah.

    Because nothing beats a home that hates itself.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Various pre-European tribes had their young men go off on a vision quest or something like that.
    Personally, I figure the best time for introspection is a long drive alone. Not sure why, but I can maintain a train of thought longer that way than any other way.
    But, if I don’t tell my wife about what lecture–to somebody–I was working up, and I don’t tell anybody about my introspection, I don’t tell anybody.
    And any results are manifest completely without any reference to the introspection.
    So it would have to be inferred. But somebody who just met me wouldn’t know if it were a new thing or something I’ve done all my life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So it would have to be inferred. But somebody who just met me wouldn’t know if it were a new thing or something I’ve done all my life.

      In my experience, introspective people have different sorts of conversations and observations than those who are not self-aware.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I really would like to go for an introspective walk right now but it is raining so I might write some erotic fiction instead.

    Or watch Big Bang.

  • Jayn Rand

    JP, the home doesn’t have to “hate itself”. Forgive and love again.

    BB,
    “PJ: forgive my barrage of questions, but what is the deal with South Asian mothers-in-law…? Do you want to marry again, or does the plan to eventually live with your ex make that option inappropriate? Do you find that your disgust with American culture has strengthened your attraction to South Asian men?”

    Could you be an desi guy in disguise? Am I walking into a trap?
    Anyway, I’m not completely “disgusted” with American culture. The people are nice but lost. That gives me plenty of oppurtunity to help them.

    As far as “strengthened my attraction for SA men” – nope. I have a certain looks type and if a guy fits it I will be physically attracted. That type is not exclusive to SA men.

    SA MILs – there’s only about a bazillion blogs and forums discussing them. Google around!

    (Why? Are you dating a SA woman or something and what the heads up about her family?)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I would also like to volunteer to give Joan Holloway Harris a hug.

  • JP

    “JP, the home doesn’t have to “hate itself”. Forgive and love again.”

    Good luck getting the love back in that situation.

    Particularly if the person having the affair is already “in love” with the third party.

  • Jayn Rand

    “Good luck getting the love back in that situation.

    Particularly if the person having the affair is already “in love” with the third party.”

    In this case she wasn’t. It was a short fling for sexual satisfaction only. She told her husband that she chose to be with him. It was he who chose to divorce, destroy the family and damage his daughters but not forgiving and loving again, and then marrying the woman he had a fling with to “get back” at his wife. Who ended up being a crazy alcohol addicts who made his childrens lives a living hell.

    Disgusting.

  • JP

    “Anyway, I’m not completely “disgusted” with American culture. The people are nice but lost. That gives me plenty of oppurtunity to help them.”

    Partially because we are in the post-unraveling portion of a Crisis Era that just happens to coincide with the ending of modernity.

    Give it 10-20 years to see what happens, particularly if we get involved in a global war with China (which will depend more on what China does than the U.S. does, amusingly enough).

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    PJ: I have a good friend who is an SA woman and she will NOT date SA men because of their “mommy issues” (her words). I didn’t want to sound impertinent, so I didn’t ask—your related experience made me curious.

    At this point she has fully embraced the USA and likes All-American surfer type guys, serves on some watchdog group that tracks corruption among Indian mid-level bureaucrats granting import/export licenses for bribes, etc. I have never dated or fucked her but she’s extremely attractive IMHO.

    Sociopolitically, she is a fascinating blend. She combines a kind of interesting Chopra type quantum-spirituality with sun worship and naturopathy and all the usual hippie-type quirks, but she’s also this anarcho-capitalist IT professional who (allegedly) wears Agent Provocateur thongs, dresses and accessorizes impeccably, drives a fancy car, and would like to see Pakistan destroyed.

  • Jayn Rand

    BB, yes. Desi guys are famous for “mommy issues”. We are an uber family oriented culture so in-laws are in your face (and in your bedroom!). We take “co-sleeping” to previously unseen heights.

    ” but she’s also this anarcho-capitalist”

    India is an anarcho-capitalist country with a big government.

    “serves on some watchdog group that tracks corruption among Indian mid-level bureaucrats granting import/export licenses for bribes”

    That’s Indian style anarcho-capitalism ;)

    “At this point she has fully embraced the USA and likes All-American surfer type guys, ”

    I’ve dated a few surfers myself when I lived in CA. They converted to Hinduism and one of them is currently living in an ashram in Nepal.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    PJ: that’s pretty cool about the Nepalese surfer. From your descriptions, I actually would have thought that a yoga-practicing Laird Hamilton soul-surfer/vagabond world traveler type would be your ideal mate.

    Re: mommy-issues. I once asked her about going to India to find a nice guy there and she said that she didn’t really want to be doused in kerosene. I laughed; she said that she was serious and that I should shut the fuck up.

  • Jayn Rand

    BB, I googled “Laird Hamilton” to see what he looks like and I don’t find him attractive. Not my looks type at all.

    ” I once asked her about going to India to find a nice guy there and she said that she didn’t really want to be doused in kerosene. I laughed; she said that she was serious and that I should shut the fuck up.”

    I’m partial to SA guys because of shared cultural experiences. However in our culture we have the joint family system so many of us go to live with our husbands’ parents after marriage. If the parents and the unmarried sisters as well as married brothers and their wives of our husband are “nice” and give us our space, then its no problem, but them being nice and chilled out is not something that can always be counted on.

    Dousing in kerosene is not a common experience, but annoying, nosey and controlling in-laws ARE.

  • Jayn Rand

    Mike M, ” I’m 50…and while I don’t consider a 20-something an eligible date, 35 or so seems not unreasonable to at least try for.”

    Susan, “I agree! Aim high – if you have to adjust, you will. If I were 35, I would have no qualms about dating a man of 50.”

    – Oh come on now Susan. Your regular readers here aren’t buying that for a second.

  • JP

    “However in our culture we have the joint family system so many of us go to live with our husbands’ parents after marriage.”

    My BIL has taken the position that their friends *are* their family.

    That’s America!

  • Jesse

    Mr. Aubrey,

    How would you know? Among other things, allowing doubt about oneself to show is not an attractor.

    Divulging a measured amount of self-doubt can create a huge increase in charisma. Huge.

    People have to see you as human in order to identify with you and truly connect with you. Disclosing an amount of internal struggle is important in that regard. It’s harder for people to emotionally invest in you when you’re always perfect and everything’s always fine.

  • Jesse

    I’m quite fond of starting new projects. I actually view my life as more or less a series of projects. Ideally, when I finish my current career I’ll be able to start a completely new one. I’m already practicing for it, as a matter of fact.

    I have a really strong desire to become skilled, to master skills. It’s very important to me to improve in that way. To give an example of my disposition, it’s useful to create a quick-and-dirty dichotomy between “knowledge” and “skills.” So, for example, if I had a choice between reading a text on the military history of the Byzantine Empire or learning to play the piano, I would much, much rather learn to play the piano. That’s because the ability to play the piano is a tool: I can use that tool to play music that pleases me, to play other people’s songs, to write my own songs, to perform – hell, I can even use it to get girls. If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge? Act like a self-important asshole trying to impress people at cocktail parties? How hot a girl can I pick up by reciting the military history of the Byzantine Empire anyway? (Scarier thought: what kind of girl would be even be aroused by my recitation of the military history of the Byzantine Empire?) I’d much rather be playing my heart out at a club than attending a stuffy party anyway.

    I realize it’s a model that has easily identifiable flaws, but it illustrates a point.

    To me that’s one of the most enjoyable parts of life – acquiring a skill, mastering it and then using it to fully express yourself. The chase, and then the powerful, fulfilling feeling that’s derived from success, is very satisfying. To a large extent it’s just a desire to find out how good I can become. For example, I have strong interests in both music and automobile racing. I practice my guitar playing more or less every chance I get and I love to drive my five-speed, practicing advanced driving techniques like threshold braking and double-clutch heel-toe downshifting, which I’m reasonably proficient at. I want to master the guitar (which I define as becoming fully fluent in the language, so that I have complete ability to express myself musically) and to become a skilled racing driver. I believe both are achievable. Now, does that mean I think I can become the next John Lennon or Ayrton Senna?

    I don’t know. It’s certainly unlikely. There’s really no point in setting expectations like that. I think I can become good at both, but there is a chasm between “good” and becoming arguably the best to ever pick up your chosen instrument, be it a six-string or steering wheel. I just have a primal desire to test my limits, and see how far I can go. Life is more interesting when you push yourself.

    I really only want to continue with the same project for as long as I feel I can continue to improve. Continuing the same activities for decades and watching myself stagnate, or worse, slowly decline, sounds like a horrible life to me. That’s a particularly relevant issue in athletics, because beyond a certain point, you’re only ever going to go down.

    I’m quite in awe of the people who can play golf for 20 years and remain a 15 handicap the whole time. It’s amazing. Maybe it’s just a social activity for them, which I understand in a way. After all, enjoying spending time with your wife is not really a “skill” you’re looking to “master.” (Though I think I’d say sex is!) It’s just a gratifying experience that you wish to continue for the rest of your life.

    Anyway, I’m not sure how to wrap this essay up; just sharing my thoughts I guess. I think I’m quite fond of “pure” experiences like that, though. Try to find something you really love doing, try really, really hard to become as good as you can it, then when you’ve wrung every last drop out of it and you’ve got nothing more to say, bow out and move on. Life should be like that.

  • Jesse

    I would also like to volunteer to give Joan Holloway Harris a hug.

    If that’s the one from Mad Men… I think she’s a little too much woman for me, but hell yes, I’d give her a ride.

  • Terrence

    What do you know about being a man?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What do you know about being a man?

      Nothing, but I know a great deal about being married to one.

  • Liz
    Or, in situations where the man has certain beliefs, to force the occurrence of a marriage. Works pretty well.

    Ouch, I remember.

    Susan, don’t tell me you accidentally got pregnant on purpose??

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liz

      Susan, don’t tell me you accidentally got pregnant on purpose??

      No! I recall Buena Vista’s story – that’s how his second marriage came about.

  • BuenaVista

    SW: “That makes me wonder how the non-introspective person who has unwarranted or at least untested confidence in his/her ability makes out. How do they deal with setbacks?”

    The “setbacks”, or stress, in my view is the source of the pleasure of such things. They are for me the lure itself, as well as the provocative source of thought. The nature of the pleasure is two-fold: a) the pleasure of seeing one’s acquired skills validated and tested; b) the rush of thought (am I making the right decisions now, am I am I am I being smart) and fear (please Lord don’t let me fuck up). Examples of such moments for me today are sitting in a light plane with a 1935 airfoil for five hours at 15,000, traversing 2 weather systems across 1000 miles, or bootpacking up a knife edge in winter where the drop to either side is 2000 feet or more. The level of concentration one enters is so profound that upon conclusion I am, essentially, speechless. But it’s a level of concentration that one can achieve, as well, simply working at a desk all night every night for a few weeks while the world sleeps and some work product emerges on a few hundred pages.

    I recall my Outward Bound three day solo as being tedious. We just sat under our tarps with a half pint of honey and some crackers, and we were supposed to be “introspective.” Since that was how I was 90% of the time, whether tramping along in a group or off by myself, I thought it was a waste of time.

  • BuenaVista

    SW: “That makes me wonder how the non-introspective person who has unwarranted or at least untested confidence in his/her ability makes out. How do they deal with setbacks?”

    One of the ironical aspects of flying is that the more one does it, the more one runs the risk of preferring the hostile environment of the air to the nattering business of the ground. I have also encountered this at sea. The reason the risk increases is that one becomes so attached to the solitude of 15,000 that one begins to take it for granted. And of course, it’s not a friendly place, necessarily. William Langewische has described this better than I in Inside the Sky (republished as Aloft.)

    A flying buddy, Robert E. Dupea, cribbed Thomas Bernhard (Austrian poet) and described one particular night-flight into a state of reflection and insight. This light piece describes entry into a state of contemplation, the triumph of technique, and the momentary dislocation that results from capricious insight:

    Disoriented

    By 3:30 a.m. we’ve exhausted all strategies for conversation. The ground below swims in moonlight, an
    uninviting day-for-night tableau, unwinding. We focus on our own alertness, querying ourselves for
    signals of fatigue. In the still air, warmer by the mile, our aircraft flies its own heading and altitude, which
    is ours, which is verified every 20 seconds with a sweeping panel scan ñ left-right, down, right-left.
    Everything is as it should be, we say, droning forward and southward, warm-ward. Earlier, like a tired
    clock, the aircraft lost interest in our steady state, slowed, and then, untrimmed, began its slow-descent into
    night-shrouded mountains, ice-fog filling the steep ravines. Just like that, no alarms and no piercing
    awareness, just the bleeding away of inertia, altitude, and safety. The outside air temperature was minus 18
    C. Induction icing, we decide, and we have a bright red lever for that, which we move three inches, which
    works. Now it is warm, the radio is quiet, sleep is a set of cool starched sheets on a farm evening after
    weeks of unbroken heat and labor. We smoke like laboratory creatures, it works. Another state passes
    behind and below the aircraft, the moon, which created this particular world, is wonderful to stare at, so we
    do. Are we drowsing? Heading and altitude. Airspeed, amps and fuel pressure. The CDI. Heading and
    altitude. Apparently not.

    Then a peripheral form jerks our vision, right, and down ñ there, on the ground, was something: precise,
    geometric shape of light, now gone. Hallucination? we wonder. It was the shape of a child’s puzzle-toy.
    Time to land, wait for daylight? The shape of the mysterious light-form lingers. We still see it, in mind.
    Perhaps it is time to stop. Then another slashing side-form of light. Looking down and to the right,
    nothing. We look left: nothing. Then another. Another. Then it is plain: we know. We traverse the
    Carolina lowlands now, the moon, to our right, reflects itself in ponds and swamp-pools, the angle of that
    reflection briefly trapped by our sidelong vision. It is only moonlight on water. It is not fantastical. It is
    not the letter that we put away 12 years ago, or the conversation on the steps of the Duomo in that Umbrian
    hill-town, or the promises that got hammered into dust by all of our daily panting after nothing. It is only
    moonlight on water in the swamps and farm ponds of coastal Carolina. The radio is silent. The highways,
    in moonlight, empty. We pass another state, check fuel. The shape of that light disturbs us yet. But we are
    material people and it is gone. We scan heading and altitude, measure fuel consumed and remaining. We
    remember not knowing, and we remember our dislocation of five minutes. It was real but it is gone. We
    know what it was, after all. Heading and altitude. Check fuel.

    ###

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Apply the romance novel test: How many male protagonists in these books are shown introspecting and self-analyzing?

    (Not asserting that they’re not…genuinely asking)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Apply the romance novel test: How many male protagonists in these books are shown introspecting and self-analyzing?

      Very interesting question! I haven’t read many, but in the two I have (Outlander, 50 Shades), the male protagonist had low EQ which skyrocketed as a result of his love for the woman. She opened up whole new worlds for him. In the case of 50 Shades, she cures him of childhood trauma and deep-seated pathologies just by being his love object. It’s as if she made introspection possible by taking his hand and showing him the way, or giving him the courage to ask those tough questions of himself.

      Female fantasy has a large component of emotional rescue.

  • JP

    “So, for example, if I had a choice between reading a text on the military history of the Byzantine Empire or learning to play the piano, I would much, much rather learn to play the piano. That’s because the ability to play the piano is a tool: I can use that tool to play music that pleases me, to play other people’s songs, to write my own songs, to perform – hell, I can even use it to get girls. If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?”

    @Jesse

    Do you know what stands between a lawyer and a fool?

  • BuenaVista

    Jesse: “I have a really strong desire to become skilled, to master skills. It’s very important to me to improve in that way.”

    In The Pound Era, without which I don’t think it’s possible to understand Modernism, Kenner writes about the meditative state:

    “Time folded over; now lay flat, transparent, upon not-now.” And he notes that Yeats, as editor of a British poetry anthology, begins by quoting Walter Pater: “…writing came to this, in a world defined by impenetrable objects, an elaborate verbal structure generated where alone no objects can intrude: within the mind.”

    So in introspection, if we achieve the “not-now”, the diversions of the world cannot intrude on one’s mind, and this is to be an achievement we seek.

    In regard to Jesse’s comment, Kenner (in A Homemade World) also discussed (more approachably) the role of skill, or what he terms “technique” in Hemingway. The “homemade world” is the world of acquired technique, the comfort of being good at something. Hemingway sought skill and thence challenge, and in overcoming risk through skill achieved a psychological peace (the “not-now”) unavailable to him in his normative state.

    This has always resonated with me profoundly, but then I was raised by an aggressive schizophrenic, and there’s nothing like overt madness at the breakfast table to encourage a boy to go out in the garage and take apart his motorcycle.

  • JP

    SW: “That makes me wonder how the non-introspective person who has unwarranted or at least untested confidence in his/her ability makes out. How do they deal with setbacks?”

    Often by taking two and twenty before any setbacks.

  • JP

    “To give an example of my disposition, it’s useful to create a quick-and-dirty dichotomy between “knowledge” and “skills.” So, for example, if I had a choice between reading a text on the military history of the Byzantine Empire or learning to play the piano, I would much, much rather learn to play the piano. That’s because the ability to play the piano is a tool: I can use that tool to play music that pleases me, to play other people’s songs, to write my own songs, to perform – hell, I can even use it to get girls. If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?”

    In today’s metaphysical lesson we learn why it’s very important for people to explain their process of introspection.

  • JP

    Can I be unmoderated now?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      No idea why you randomly went into mod. I’ve whitelisted you.

  • JP

    In all seriousness, it’s best to know that sometimes introspection can cause significant pain in your life.

    Because the truth is sometimes catastrophic. And once you know something about yourself, you can’t unring the bell.

    As in catastrophe theory.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory

  • JP

    @BV:

    “So in introspection, if we achieve the “not-now”, the diversions of the world cannot intrude on one’s mind, and this is to be an achievement we seek.”

    I think this relates to Meditations on the Tarot, Chapter I, The Magician.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    For example, I have always found earnestness extremely attractive in males. As in, it’s an attraction trigger for me. I knew I was in love with my husband when he said something extremely earnest at our grad school lunch table (long before we dated). Perhaps I am unusual in finding earnestness a component of charm, while finding arrogance or conceit decidedly lacking in charm.

    You and Confucius too.

    Analects 17:6.
    Tzu-chang asked Confucius about humanity. Confucius said, “One who can practice five things wherever he may be is a man of humanity.” Tzu-chang asked what the five are. Confucius said, “Earnestness, liberality, truthfulness, diligence, and generosity. If one is earnest, one will not be treated with disrespect. If one is liberal, one will win the hearts of all. If one is truthful, one will be trusted. If one is diligent, one will be successful. And if one is generous, one will be able to enjoy the service of others.”

    Of course that is not the type of asshat alpha we lionize in Western culture.

  • JP

    “If one is diligent, one will be successful.”

    Of course that is not the type of asshat alpha we lionize in Western culture.

    Well, in part because diligence is not really a virtue. It’s only diligence properly applied that is useful. The Protestant Work Ethic has some real problems.

    And with respect to the truth, it’s sometimes better to neither tell the truth nor lie when you are asked a question

    Generosity and earnestness are generally good ideas, however.

    I’m not sure what he means by “liberal” in this context.

  • mr. wavevector

    I’m not sure what he means by “liberal” in this context.

    This is also variously translated as “generosity of soul”, “magnanimous”, or “tolerant”. Not liberal in the sense of progressive politics.

    Well, in part because diligence is not really a virtue. It’s only diligence properly applied that is useful.

    The meaning of virtue is appears somewhat different in Confucianism than it is in Western Christian thought. I’m no expert – maybe someone here who was brought up in that culture can elaborate.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I would be quite interested in the military and economic history of the Byzantine Empire. You are talking about the successors to Rome, who lasted 8 centuries after the Western Empire had fallen and Rome was nothing more than a playground for barbarians with pointy sticks.

    Actually, I know very little about the Empire. Apparently the Theme System was rather effective in repelling the Muslim invaders, though, right up until the Seljuk Turks came upon the scene, and my understanding is that they demolished Constaniopole only because the Byzantine refused to purchase the cannons of an ingenious inventor…who then sold them to the Turks, who used them to take down the walls.

    There is also something about Justinian, who I remember only small things about, who also led an invasion of Italy that was at least briefly successful.

    Would also be interested in learning about some of the ethnic history of Balkans regions, since the heterogenous groups have been a point of contention among European great powers for centuries, started the First World, and ultimately doomed the Austrian Empire (descended from the Hapsburgs who quite nearly re-established a kind of Roman Empire in Europe).

    Hmmmm.

    I may need to go pick up a new book…

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Female fantasy has a large component of emotional rescue.”

    Which agrees with the original sentiment that emotionally unavailable men are better at attaining female attention.

    “I agree! Aim high – if you have to adjust, you will. If I were 35, I would have no qualms about dating a man of 50.”

    Applied to a younger woman this basically works out to start high up, be P&D’d and work down until you find your equilibrium.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Which agrees with the original sentiment that emotionally unavailable men are better at attaining female attention.

      As always, I hesitate to extrapolate from fantasy. In fact, most women do not choose men with zero EQ IRL, because most of us know no one has the power to make those men emotionally available. Some women do fall prey to acting out that fantasy, obviously, which is where the “chicks dig jerks” meme originates.

      Applied to a younger woman this basically works out to start high up, be P&D’d and work down until you find your equilibrium.

      Not really. Aim high, no sex before monogamy. Adjust as necessary.

  • mr. wavevector

    No one else seems to have brought this up, so I will – what about the value of introspection for women? It seems like some of the biggest obstacles young women have for finding an appropriate boyfriend or partner are their own unexamined expectations and entitlements or dysfunctional cultural values uncritically adopted.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      what about the value of introspection for women? It seems like some of the biggest obstacles young women have for finding an appropriate boyfriend or partner are their own unexamined expectations and entitlements or dysfunctional cultural values uncritically adopted.

      I agree 100%. As usual, I directed my advice to women, but I believe it applies equally to men. It occurs to me that a lot of what I do here is attempt to get young women to introspect.

  • mr. wavevector

    “I agree! Aim high – if you have to adjust, you will. If I were 35, I would have no qualms about dating a man of 50.”

    As a man of 50, I would have some qualms about dating a woman of 35. I would be concerned about short changing her out of 15 years of vitality and health. An unmarried woman of 35 is likely to want children, which would entail active fatherhood into the 70’s for that man of 50. That’s not an ideal situation for anyone involved.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Mr. Wavevector “The meaning of virtue is appears somewhat different in Confucianism than it is in Western Christian thought.”

    The translation is not perfect, because the original text in Chinese is extremely concise to the point of “poetry” (every syllable/sound in Chinese is a word, which often contains a multitude of words depending on the word itself). But there is a follow-up immediately after that statement you quoted which does imply “diligence properly applied” is necessary.

    “The Master said: “You, have you heard the six phrases about the six distortions?” You answered that he hadn’t. “Then stay a moment,” Confucius said, “and I will tell you.”

    If you love being kind to others, but don’t like to study, then your kindness will be distorted into simplicity.

    If you love wisdom, but don’t like to study, then your wisdom will be distorted into aimlessness.

    If you love trustworthiness, but don’t like to study, then your trust will be distorted into harm.

    If you love candor, but don’t like to study, your candor will be distorted into rudeness.

    If you love boldness, but don’t like to study, your boldness will be distorted into unruliness.

    If you love persistence, but don’t like to study, your persistence will be distorted into rashness.”

  • Richard Aubrey

    ADBG
    For Balkan history and a good deal more, see Rebecca West, “Black Lamb and Grey Falcon”. Written in the shadow of WW II. At fourteen hundred pages, more or less, it’s a weekend’s read. But the preface and suffix are independently useful. Great writer. I think she starts with Diocletian????
    Robert Graves has a novel of Justinian’s famous general Belisarius which, afaict, is pretty accurate in its history.

  • BuenaVista

    “An unmarried woman of 35 is likely to want children, which would entail active fatherhood into the 70′s for that man of 50. That’s not an ideal situation for anyone involved.”

    No qualms here. None whatsoever. Age is as age does. And as age manifests itself. One of the women I’m seeing said about my dad (age 85) last week: “He looks incredible. I mean, he’s still sexy. That means you’ll look like that too.” (Maybe: I’m stronger but I drink more and I have a box of cigars on my desk as I type.) She’s probably carrying the highest female MMV in her city (pop. 100K) (surgeon, 5’11”, athlete, Norwegian bone structure meaning hot), so it’s not like she has low standards. There’s something to be said, evidently, for being a lifelong athlete of some sort, and eating properly.

    “Which agrees with the original sentiment that emotionally unavailable men are better at attaining female attention.”

    This has certainly been true for me, now that I’ve stopped trying to be a “good man”. In this ongoing experiment the above-mentioned woman called me at 11 p.m. last night pressing for some “emotional availability.” In the past I would have talked all night with her. Instead I made a date for the weekend. She called back at 7 this morning. I still wasn’t “available.” We talk about her emotional realities, not mine.

    In my backtests I’ve concluded that I’ve only been rewarded once (and not in a marital relationship) for being emotionally articulate about deep personal matters of concern to *me*, while with a woman. (Of course, I didn’t believe that was a safe thing to do, however, so I then sabotaged the relationship (with a true MMV 10, no less).)

    I think my misunderstanding of this fact contributed mightily to the end of my marriage. (I was under the impression that we were peers in an emotional constant, with equal concern for each other’s happiness. I cringe remembering some of my revelations to my ex-.) I also do research on restaurants and always drive the car. I do believe women are the drivers of long relationships, and I doubt I could submit myself to that control scenario ever again, especially since I know that such submission destroys my appeal. I certainly would never reveal under any circumstance my fears or vulnerabilities. I think a man can do that maybe once or twice every ten years before his girl thinks he’s a pussy.

  • Anacaona

    As always, I hesitate to extrapolate from fantasy. In fact, most women do not choose men with zero EQ IRL, because most of us know no one has the power to make those men emotionally available. Some women do fall prey to acting out that fantasy, obviously, which is where the “chicks dig jerks” meme originates.
    I will say that is a dance the man shows he is willing to ‘allow himself to be saved’ before the leading lady take it as her task. Sadly like everything some women assume that all unavailable men are going to open up to their magic vagina and pick the most attractive one. Not how it works. There is an art to this fantasy males and they always show just enough to be open to them.
    I will add that Twilight is about Bella’s physical journey from clumsy to perfect vampire while Edward’s journey is an emotional one accepting he is not a monster. He is very introspective indeed.

  • Pip

    Ah, Valentine. Seat of, I believe, Cherry County? The big one in the northwest-central part of the state? Did a bit of work there.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “As always, I hesitate to extrapolate from fantasy. In fact, most women do not choose men with zero EQ IRL, because most of us know no one has the power to make those men emotionally available.”

    Its not much of an extrapolation if those women are practicing said behavior in their real lives.
    Maybe not to the degree of chasing those that are emotionally unavailable but there are a significant number of women whom have this fantasy about their relationships being a deep emotional exploration and growth exercise.

    Which is similar to a man watching too much porn and wanting to do a facial every single time.

    The only difference I’ve never seen a man divorce for a woman not being willing/able to swallow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Maybe not to the degree of chasing those that are emotionally unavailable but there are a significant number of women whom have this fantasy about their relationships being a deep emotional exploration and growth exercise.

      Those are two totally different things. The former is about his emotional growth, the latter is about hers.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    ‘“An unmarried woman of 35 is likely to want children, which would entail active fatherhood into the 70′s for that man of 50. That’s not an ideal situation for anyone involved.”

    I travel in the country a lot, and around a lot of older, fairly well-to-do people, and that man-much-older-than-woman dynamic, common in the past, seems to me to really be dying down to the standard cases of rich old man gets hot young woman. Women, speaking across the population, just do not need men for financial reasons like they used to, and can do better or do without.

    I can’t imagine wanting to be involved with a man 15 (or more!) years older. Taking 30 seconds and going through my mental short list of 20 BFFs, ages 27-38 or so, none have. All are college grads, all did better than settling in that respect. (And yes, I think it’s settling. Men that much older, all things equal, are just not as sexy to me, plain n’ simple. Any yes, older women aren’t as attractive to men either. Ya gets what’s comin’ to ya, as my step-dad says.)

  • BuenaVista

    Hi, Pip. Yup, one of the least populated counties in America, I believe, in the center of the Sand Hills. Spectacular country.

  • Hope

    Buena Vista “I certainly would never reveal under any circumstance my fears or vulnerabilities. I think a man can do that maybe once or twice every ten years before his girl thinks he’s a pussy.”

    Whenever my husband reveals his vulnerabilities, we always have really amazing heart-to-heart talks that last hours and make me feel closer to him, and in turn makes me more attracted to him than ever. I would say this happens once every few months or so since we got together.

  • BuenaVista

    Pip: “Man-much-older-than-woman dynamic, common in the past, seems to me to really be dying down to the standard cases of rich old man gets hot young woman.”

    I’m always reading or hearing about this but I’m not experiencing it. The max female/male age ratio I’m encountering approaches 150% (e.g., 37 year-old female, 55 year-old male). It seems to be something educated women say but don’t practice in the here and now. This seems pretty stable on the wide side, with traditional 6-8 year spread being common even on OKC with its female ‘shopping list’ framework.

    I can’t remember, either, the last time I was in a close relationship with a woman who was not fonder of her father than her mother, so perhaps that is a partial key; I would be labeled an alpha by most, though I am not even close, so they seem to find that comfortable. The other factor, I suspect, is that once-divorced women have a preference for more than an unlined face in qualifying their men (e.g., status markers and opinions as to where to go for dinner).

    My editor recently introduced me to a friend of hers, who’s my age, but only after she shit-tested me by adding “Of course I don’t know if you only date younger women.” (Actually she does know, since she’s younger and we were very close once.) (And actually, she didn’t know she was shit-testing me, that’s just how they talk about such matters in her upper west side world.) There’s a lot of information in that sentence: a) shame on you; b) I’m raising the sisterhood banner; c) salute the sisterhood banner; d) I dare you to man up; e) no, I’m not going to send you a full-length photo of her first.

    And truthfully, the women that feminists would consider age-appropriate for me self-sabotage at remarkable rates that are tiresome — so this too would indicate that they think they should date older.

    I agree with Pip’s step-dad, however. People do age (appearance-wise) at radically different rates. I think I got blasted out of the water here the last time I mentioned the importance of meeting one’s potential mother-in-law.

  • BuenaVista

    Hope: “…we always have really amazing heart-to-heart talks that last hours and make me feel closer to him.”

    Good on you two, but my impression is that my basket of attributes, in sum, would cause you to dislike me for other reasons. IOW, I attract a different sort of woman and they react differently than you.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Those are two totally different things. The former is about his emotional growth, the latter is about hers.”

    No.
    The second is an expectation of him growing with her.
    The first is an expectation of him growing without her.

    In both cases they are expectations that HE will grow in EQ.
    And in both cases, the expectation is unrealistic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The second is an expectation of him growing with her.

      I think you’ve got that wrong. Women expect marriage to provide opportunities for personal growth and development for themselves. They’re focused on their own experience, which is why they leave when it doesn’t happen that way.

  • Hope

    Buena Vista, yes, perhaps each of us tend to attract and become attracted to a set of characteristics and personalities which result in certain relationship dynamics.

    I had in the past attracted guys who were more “popular” with women, but I did not go for them because I tended not to trust them. The women who did go for them may indeed react differently than I do.

    It is also entirely possible, and most likely the case, that I would not react well to expressed fears in a different man who has a different method of expression — for example, loudness and anger instead of quietness and anxiety. Meanwhile, another woman might prefer the former to the latter.

    In the long haul, this stuff really matters.

  • Hope

    Lokland, it is fantasy for a woman to expect a man to grow in EQ, but not fantasy for a parent to expect a child to grow in EQ.

    This is also why most of those romances involve young adolescents who are still growing emotionally, because it is more likely to happen and allows the reader to not have to suspend too much belief.

    The problem with Twilight is that it makes a hundred years old vampire into some emotionally stunted teenage boy who keeps going to high school. You’d think he would have learned a thing or two after a few years.

    But that’s why I don’t go for those kinds of romances. My kind of romance is between people who already have high EQ.

  • JP

    “There is also something about Justinian, who I remember only small things about, who also led an invasion of Italy that was at least briefly successful.”

    That moron smashed the Ostrogoths.

    Talk about an own goal.

  • Creme de la Creme

    There’s an unspoken “understanding” between partners involved in May-December relationships/marriages.

    The Eagles song “Lyin’ Eyes” is about that.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    But there is a follow-up immediately after that statement you quoted which does imply “diligence properly applied” is necessary.

    Thanks for the explanation. The part you quoted implies that all the virtues must be supported not only by deeds but by learning. Compare that to contemporary Western culture, where people want to claim virtue without either the learning or deeds to justify it.

  • VJ

    I had 2 thoughts here. 1.) Any Man described as being ‘introspective’ or even ‘thoughtful’ by any woman not already his long term wife, has an excellent likelihood of being involuntarily lonely & celibate for long stretches of time. And yes, of course this is an age graded trait, and as we’ve seen above, no amount of this ‘stuff’ (whatever it is, ‘wisdom of age’ or even ‘maturity’), can begin to overcome the simple animal level of physical attraction & looks needed for meeting, dating & certainly mating. Further science shows that’s most of the game, especially at the younger ages when families are being formed & born. The rest is commentary.

    And 2.) There’s many, many ways to illustrate the central point. Here’s one of the more typical scenarios.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2358598/Baseball-Wives-star-Anna-Benson-breaks-estranged-husbands-home-armed-metal-baton-handgun-orders-money.html

    So there’s little use really. Youth is wasted on the young. But being born with a bit of the introspective curse, I can say resolutely they always seemed to be having more fun at the time than I was. My consolation is a better retirement? Bah Humbug! Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • VD

    If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?”

    It might come in handy sooner than you think. We had a party this weekend and some of the men were talking about the rising chaos all over the world. Then one of them came into my office and happened to see the exceedingly complicated wargame my son and I had set up in there.

    “Good grief, you’re preparing him for this!”

    Beware the false retreat and always, ALWAYS, pay your debts to the Venetians.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    Whenever my husband reveals his vulnerabilities, we always have really amazing heart-to-heart talks that last hours and make me feel closer to him, and in turn makes me more attracted to him than ever. I would say this happens once every few months or so since we got together.

    That works because you totally worship him and he has no doubts about your character. He’s knows he’s locked down your attraction and can trust you, so when he reveals his vulnerabilities it’s a chance for you to get closer emotionally to him.

    A man who is afraid to reveal his insecurities to his wife is a man who has doubts about the strength of his attractiveness to his wife or has concerns about the strength of his wife’s character.

  • mr. wavevector

    If I read a book on the military history of the Byzantine Empire, what the hell am I going to do with that knowledge?

    Impress a hot history major and get laid? Stranger things have happened. I got laid once because of my knowledge of 19th century orchestral music.

  • Anacaona

    The problem with Twilight is that it makes a hundred years old vampire into some emotionally stunted teenage boy who keeps going to high school. You’d think he would have learned a thing or two after a few years.
    The HS is a cover they look like teenagers and all teens in Forks attend HS. It would be even weirder for them to stay home and it gives than a chance to go out of the house without people asking questions.
    The emotionally stunted has to do with when and how he died and it had evolved to depression at the point we meet them. It would be boring storytelling if there would be nothing to gain from falling in love, specially in a romance. The whole point is that both characters should be better off after they are together than when they were alone.

    But that’s why I don’t go for those kinds of romances. My kind of romance is between people who already have high EQ.
    I don’t think I ever read or watched such a thing. Any examples?

  • JP

    “I agree with Pip’s step-dad, however. People do age (appearance-wise) at radically different rates. I think I got blasted out of the water here the last time I mentioned the importance of meeting one’s potential mother-in-law.”

    No, you definitely need to look at the mother-in-law.

    How else can you make an educated guess how your wife will age?

    I thought that was both common knowledge and common sense.

  • Doublespeak

    }No, you definitely need to look at the mother-in-law.

    How else can you make an educated guess how your wife will age?”

    No, look at the FATHER in law, because daughters tend to resemble their dads and sons their moms.

    Plus, as humans age the sexes sort of morph into each other. Just look at her dad and imagine him with hair and boobs and that will be your future wife.

    Same applies to women looking at their boyfriends’ moms to gain an idea of what their potential future hubbies might look like down the line.

  • JP

    “Women expect marriage to provide opportunities for personal growth and development for themselves.”

    I’ve never though about marriage as being like grad school.

    Probably because marriage is nothing at all like grad school.

    In fact, if you want the grad school experience you should probably *go to grad school* rather than *getting married*.

    As an example, I will show how I use similar reasoning when I’m thirsty.

    Instead of going to the hardware store and buying a box of nails, I go to the refrigerator and get out a soda. I then open the soda, pour it into a glass, and drink it. Now, I *could* go to the hardware store and buy a box of nails and drink them, but I’m fairly confident that would not relieve my thirst.

    (Granted, drinking nails *could* result in me not being thirsty because the EMT’s hooked a lactated ringer on my arm right before the emergency surgery, but drinking nails is generally not considered a solution to thirst.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      JP, you crack me up. I would absolutely love to attend a dinner party where you were present.

  • Doublespeak

    ” The second is an expectation of him growing with her.”

    Susan, ” I think you’ve got that wrong. Women expect marriage to provide opportunities for personal growth and development for themselves. They’re focused on their own experience, which is why they leave when it doesn’t happen that way.”

    – The other poster is right, Susan. The expectation is that the couple will grow together into a dynamic duo of an exciting, self-actualized couple.

    This is why you often hear, “we just grew apart” from divorced couples.

    It is perceived that their interests, goals and worldviews diverged at some point. Or that one grew, advanced, at a faster pace than the other.

  • Jonny

    “Women expect marriage to provide opportunities for personal growth and development for themselves. They’re focused on their own experience, which is why they leave when it doesn’t happen that way.”

    In my experience, my ex-wife left when she felt I can’t change. Her growth depended on me to change with her. Otherwise, why will she change for the sake of a husband that continues to be in the past? What women don’t see is men do change. No one stays the same. Unfortunately, women change too quickly and demand their husbands to keep up.

    Men should marry women that are not so quick. Men should not marry their intellectual equals, superiors, or imagined.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      In my experience, my ex-wife left when she felt I can’t change. Her growth depended on me to change with her. Otherwise, why will she change for the sake of a husband that continues to be in the past?

      I stand corrected – that’s a clear example, and now that you describe it, I recall other similar stories.

      Even though I am a woman, I often do not understand what other women want. I view my personal growth as my own responsibility. I hope my husband will continue to grow as a person as well, but this doesn’t strike me as something we would do in tandem.

  • Hope

    Anacaona, I like stories where the central plotline is not just about romance. My favorite is the Dune series, which is definitely not a love story, but it does have romances, marriages, love and children… and war, religion, politics, philosophy, history, science, sci-fi, ecology, metaphysics, spirituality, and a whole world which is both imagined and realistic.

    I credit the Dune series with changing my life.

  • Anacaona

    Anacaona, I like stories where the central plotline is not just about romance. My favorite is the Dune series, which is definitely not a love story, but it does have romances, marriages, love and children… and war, religion, politics, philosophy, history, science, sci-fi, ecology, metaphysics, spirituality, and a whole world which is both imagined and realistic.
    Oh okay. I though you were talking about romance novels. You should read Cloud Atlas it has all that and more. I haven’t read Dune though so I don’t know if will be depicted in the way you like it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      You recommend Cloud Atlas? It’s on my Kindle, but I feel intimidated by it for some reason.

  • JP

    I suppose you could also read What Dreams May Come, which is a little Cloud Altas-ish.

    The author just died a couple of weeks ago. Richard Matheson.

    Same guy who wrote I Am Legend, one of the original infection zombie-ish books, which had a few film incarnations, most recently in 2007 with Will Smith. Also wrote Stir of Echos.

    It’s probably Matheson’s fault World War Z is in theaters now.

  • Anacaona

    I suppose you could also read What Dreams May Come, which is a little Cloud Altas-ish.
    I love that movie. Haven’t read the book though.

  • Ob Col

    “In my experience, my ex-wife left when she felt I can’t change. Her growth depended on me to change with her. Otherwise, why will she change for the sake of a husband that continues to be in the past? What women don’t see is men do change. No one stays the same. Unfortunately, women change too quickly and demand their husbands to keep up.

    Men should marry women that are not so quick. Men should not marry their intellectual equals, superiors, or imagined.”

    – I guess the point of “hypergamy” so expressed on this blog is for women to marry a man who has already “changed” and “grown” ahead of her so she has to keep up?

  • Pip

    “I’m always reading or hearing about this but I’m not experiencing it. The max female/male age ratio I’m encountering approaches 150% (e.g., 37 year-old female, 55 year-old male). It seems to be something educated women say but don’t practice in the here and now. This seems pretty stable on the wide side, with traditional 6-8 year spread being common even on OKC with its female ‘shopping list’ framework.”

    Sounds like we are from different sides of the tracks in Valentine! (I’m actually from WV, but anyway…

    37 and 55 is something I just don’t encounter with 37 (or thereabouts) year-olds I know, unless the man is rich. In the 27-38 age range of most of my friend (I’m just north of 30), the most common vector of coupling was college or grad school, so age matches are the norm. We haven’t really had the divorce wave pass through. Stay tuned! I’m forever marriage- and childfree myself, so I’m kind of on the outside as a neutral observer.

  • Richard Aubrey

    WV.

    “”A man who is afraid to reveal his insecurities to his wife is a man who has doubts about the strength of his attractiveness to his wife or has concerns about the strength of his wife’s character.””

    How about he doesn’t want his wife to worry about this or that which might come at them and he couldn’t handle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How about he doesn’t want his wife to worry about this or that which might come at them and he couldn’t handle.

      I was thinking about this overnight, and I really do think it boils down to this:

      A woman wants to feel that a man will protect her from danger. She seeks assurance of that in two ways.

      1. She looks for evidence of strength rather than weakness. Is he secure in his place in the world? Is he serene rather than anxious? Is he assertive rather than timid? etc. A woman “reads” a man’s demeanor as an indication of his reliability during a crisis. This is not a perfect method, obviously, but we have that instinct.

      2. She looks for evidence of investment on his part. Is he committed and loyal? Will he defend her, or will he only worry about himself? Or worse, go defend some other woman?

      The restaurant metaphor is just the tip of the iceberg of #1. A small clue. A woman reads a man within seconds with some accuracy – this example seems to reflect the reports of some men who felt they drifted into low dominance mode over time, IDK. And of course, a man’s seeking to please a woman because he cares about her is not a negative (see #2).

      As a woman I can’t advise men on how to get the delivery just right – it’s more of a case where we know it when we see it.

  • Anacaona

    You recommend Cloud Atlas? It’s on my Kindle, but I feel intimidated by it for some reason.
    I saw the movie and it was a transforming experience. I plan to start reading the book as soon as I’m done with a book I had in line before it. My MIL loves the book. If anything watch the movie first and see if you want to read the book.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: expressing vulnerabilities. I think that sometimes as a man you have to aggressively and strategically edit your vulnerabilities, suppressing the real ones until you can neutralize them with introspection and improvement projects on your own time, but leaving trails to false vulnerabilities in order to deal with shit-tests and dominance hierarchies and other irritations. You need to get the toxic types to come out of the bushes and play their hands, and so you thoughtfully provide misdirection.

    For example, an aerobatic pilot like BV could amuse himself by claiming that he was afraid of heights, because he can backstop this with revealed behavior that shows an extraordinary comfort level with heights. A rock-climber could make a similar claim and it would only serve to make the climbing portfolio, once revealed at an appropriate time, even more impressive.

    Extremely confident delivery and composure paired with “awshucks” self-deprecating humor and contrived modesty seems to be particularly engaging. You select things that are actually strengths and then reimagine them as being linked to weaknesses—after awhile, people will stop trying to probe you for vulnerabilities because the experience will be like stepping into spring-loaded traps.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Extremely confident delivery and composure paired with “awshucks” self-deprecating humor and contrived modesty seems to be particularly engaging. You select things that are actually strengths and then reimagine them as being linked to weaknesses

      Yeah, it works on college applications and in job interviews too.

  • linkedout

    Even we women have to be wary of appearing too vulnerable. I remember opening up and sharing some vulnerabilities expecting to be met with moral support and just got blank looks, even contemptuous looks, from a few “boyfriends”.

    Some men are just not emotionally moved by the damsel in distress.

  • Richard Aubrey

    linkedout
    There’s distress and there’s what appears to be unnecessary drama.
    Guys are likely to judge the two differently from women.
    Should wait.

  • Kaehu

    VD– And think carefully before you decide to become a Blue or a Green.

  • Robber

    Hey Susan. Been a while. Have found myself back on the west side of the pacific (Sydney this time, Not a fan of this city apart from its surf beaches) at the end of a big day selling technology to wankers with no idea about engineering but with lots of money. It’s nearly 9pm and I’m thousands of km from those I love.. Miss California is still on the scene and has become great friends with Lachlan. He’s a truly intense kid who doesn’t make friends easily so I think we’re in a winner with her. Nice to have a female presence around too – two guys even of very different ages can get a bit too blokey sometimes ). No she hasn’t moved in. I am a mid 30s man yet I can’t shake my parents’ unspoken disapproval of living in sin arrangements. Yes she does have a toothbrush in the bathroom!

    Introspection – spent about two years in the biggest hole of it known to man. Trying to analyse my rotten situation with a baby on my own which ultimately had no meaning – it was just stuff that happened. Questioning a god I wasn’t sure I believed in. Etc etc. what came of it? Not much. Since them I have grown and developed so much but it was through doing, not thinking. As an ISTJ I always like to wallow in my own misery but have found the best lesson is that taking action to grow and develop and take chances is the best kind of living. Before Helen died I don’t imagine I’d have ever ended up in San Francisco developing technology and making sales pitches and raising a truly amazing, if intense, little man.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Robber

      It’s good to hear from you, thanks for checking in! I’m so glad that everything is great with Miss CA – it sounds like she has a lot of love to give both you and Lachlan. Definitely a keeper!

      You raise such an interesting point – the value of thinking vs. doing. I alluded to excessive navel gazing in the post, but you experienced such a traumatic episode in the death of your young wife – the extreme circumstances serve to create a very clear example of the need to move from introspection to action, or maybe even to abandon introspection altogether.

      I guess the question is, did your introspection dictate the direction you headed when you went to take chances and try new things? Or would you have been better off avoiding that altogether? (It hardly seems possible.)

  • Liz

    Abbot July 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    “Its so undignified, age inappropriate and unattractive.”

    ONLY because women of that age can’t pull it off.

    Maybe people who hate women (and who really hate middle-age women) should find a different forum for their comments. I don’t know what they get out of being here.

    And it’s weird to be spouting ageism when you’re no spring chicken yourself.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    1. She looks for evidence of strength rather than weakness. Is he secure in his place in the world?

    2. She looks for evidence of investment on his part. Is he committed and loyal?

    That’s similar to my comment on another thread:

    First, the man who has a plan, makes a decision, and executes on it shows value above the man who doesn’t, even if that plan is just a restaurant date. Second, he can demonstrate that he understands and responds to the woman’s tastes and interests.

    That’s why I think the restaurant question, while blown out of proportion in these discussions, has symbolic value. It is a small thing that represents something much larger. By itself it doesn’t make or break a relationship. But it is one instance of a pattern of behavior which may determine the course of a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wv

      That’s why I think the restaurant question, while blown out of proportion in these discussions, has symbolic value. It is a small thing that represents something much larger. By itself it doesn’t make or break a relationship. But it is one instance of a pattern of behavior which may determine the course of a relationship.

      It may be useful as a symbol, but the danger is that guys glom onto it as something they should implement asap. That’s not particularly helpful if the rest of it doesn’t get addressed. It’s not the specific behavior that’s important, it’s the underlying attitude that results in that behavior, along with many other congruent behaviors.

      My husband’s attitude towards where we eat is a reflection of his attitude about himself, and has been consistent over time. That’s how I know he won’t come home and announce we’re eating pizza, nor will he shrink when I ask him to choose a place.

      As you say, be a man with a plan is good general advice – and that plan applies to all aspects of life, large and small. It also requires some introspection, IMO.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I think that female introspection can be attractive to men if it appears to indicate an honest acknowledgment of weaknesses. The weaknesses can be deeply troubling and that may be even better from a male POV.

    It’s funny: if a woman comes on a board full of men and says that she wants to have sex with hot alphas with big cocks and money, and that she is secretly an attention-seeking, incoherent slut who has rape fantasies and the like, you would think that guys would hate her. But she is loved! I don’t think the reverse is true, though (the guy who went on a female board and talked about male sexual nature in equally stark terms would not be loved).

    Thoughts…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      It’s funny: if a woman comes on a board full of men and says that she wants to have sex with hot alphas with big cocks and money, and that she is secretly an attention-seeking, incoherent slut who has rape fantasies and the like, you would think that guys would hate her. But she is loved!

      See Sassy for proof of this in action. :)

      It sounds to me like they’d love her for being one of the guys. Like that woman you know who took up MMA and got the boob job. She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan and Mr. Wavevector “That’s why I think the restaurant question, while blown out of proportion in these discussions, has symbolic value.”

    Interesting analysis. I tend to look for deeper evidence of character/strength in men, which is probably why I don’t care for the restaurant thing. But I found myself much more attracted my husband as he described remaining calm in the face of death, taking a leadership / protector role to make sure his friends are okay, his ordeal in rural harsh conditions in Africa and in high altitude winter treks through mountains. He can face both acute and chronic conditions.

    I suspect this is also why many women find “uniformed men” attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I suspect this is also why many women find “uniformed men” attractive.

      No question! My father was married in his dress blues. Obviously, they trumped a tux.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Bastiat Blogger, “if a woman comes on a board full of men and says that she wants to have sex with hot alphas with big cocks and money, and that she is secretly an attention-seeking, incoherent slut who has rape fantasies and the like, you would think that guys would hate her. But she is loved! I don’t think the reverse is true, though (the guy who went on a female board and talked about male sexual nature in equally stark terms would not be loved).”

    She appears to be loved by men because men love honesty for its own sake. Men who suspect “all women are like that” love it because she is a confirmation case. Men who look for “wifely women” love it because they can avoid her more easily. Women tend to value social harmony and “appearances,” and total honesty tend to undermine those things, so they generally don’t like it when men talk about male sexual nature in stark terms.

    Personally I love honesty for its own sake. I was a “manosphere” poster for several years and appreciated men’s brutal honesty. Then I met my husband and saw no need to get beaten up psychologically all the time anymore. Regardless, I relate to these paragraphs:

    You want the absolute main key to an INFJ heart? I assume that’s what you’re after. Honesty. Even the brutal truths we don’t want to hear. We operate best when EVERYTHING is on the table. If you hide something, we’ll find out through sheer intuition and we’ll be extremely offended. More so than almost anything you do besides cheating on us. It’s cheating our trust really, that’s the way we look at it.

    I just respect honesty so damn much. If you’re telling me something that might upset or hurt me, tell me the truth anyway…but just express, while you are saying it…somehow…that you are so sorry for the pain you might cause, but you respect me enough to be honest with me. I can’t explain it better than that. I guess that’s the sensitivity I was talking about…and discernment.

    That said, there is a diplomatic way to be honest, and some men don’t bother to temper their honesty so that they don’t come across as rude. I still appreciate it in that case, but I would not want to be friendly with that type of person.

  • J

    But I found myself much more attracted my husband as he described remaining calm in the face of death, taking a leadership / protector role to make sure his friends are okay, his ordeal in rural harsh conditions in Africa and in high altitude winter treks through mountains. He can face both acute and chronic conditions.

    How a man faces and overcomes adversity is of paramount importance. What woman wants to be with a man who can’t face life? It’s fun that DH can select a nice restaurant or an entertaining movie or concert. It’s far more important though that he had what it took to escape a miserable childhood and succeed in life.

  • J

    As you say, be a man with a plan is good general advice – and that plan applies to all aspects of life, large and small. It also requires some introspection, IMO.

    A while ago I was channel surfing and ran into an episode of “The Millionaire Matchmaker” that exemplifies this idea.

    Patti Stanger had emphasized to her client that he needed to plan a date that would really impress the woman she set him up with, so he took her to a really bizarre restaurant that served odd foods. Andrew Zimmern would have loved this place. It had this candied skunk rectum (OK, I’m exaggerating but not by much.) on the menu.

    The woman was really disgusted and didn’t want to eat anything, but he decided that he was going to show leadership, something Patti had emphasized to him, by ordering things she didn’t want and by insisting she eat them. He evinced no understanding of how boorish he was being. He told her he was “testing” her, and she was failing. All the while, he had odd stare people get when they are trying to look attentive but dont know when to break eye contact. Needless to say, the date was a disaster.

    No calibration, no introspection. And yes, I wondered if the man had Asperger’s.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “”That’s why I think the restaurant question, while blown out of proportion in these discussions, has symbolic value.””

    I think you’ve come close to the definition of METAPHOR.
    It must be, however, in unimportant matters. Trying to lead in the important stuff is patriarchal oppression.

    Susan. Not quite. Jean Auel–Valley of The Horses–started her first book with an orphaned H. Sap girl “ayla” taken in and raised–not eaten–by a band of H. Nean. So we got to see life in the H. N. world, presuming Auel did her homework, which it appears she did.
    Her H. Nean guys were alpha as hell and women choosing the Big Dude for sperm wasn’t an issue. Not much choice for them. I even bet the guys swaggered.

    But once in a while, the guys would go off by themselves. They would have an explosion of catharsis. They knew the world was horribly violent, savage, dangerous, unpredictable, and confusing. By themselves, once in a while, they could let go of pretending they had the world by the tail. But they knew that if the rest of the band knew what they knew, things might fall apart. Pretending cost them, but they had to do it.
    So if you like ev psych, there’s a speculation for you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So if you like ev psych, there’s a speculation for you.

      I had to laugh at your using Jean Auel as a source, but hey, based on what I’ve been reading recently about evolution, most of what we think we know is pure nonsense, e.g. Paleo diet.

      Even within the evo psych academic camp, there are different factions. And now books like Sex at Dawn and the new Bergner book are basically claiming women are every bit as horny and desirous of sexual variety as men.

      Go figure.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/marellus Marellus

    The reality is this :

    MEN MUST APPROACH.

    I’ll say it again :

    MEN MUST APPROACH.

    Women are fucking hopeless at approaching men.

    Really.

    I’ve seen the women that tried. You end up feeling sorry for them.

    … and suspicious.

    Oh yes – you end feeling suspicious about them.

    So with this fact – what is a woman supposed to do ?

    Signalling.

    It all resorts down to that decidedly feminine art of signalling : Getting the guy to notice her, and to inspire that guy for once – and only once – to ignore his timid arse … and walk up to her … to start a conversation.

    The problem is that the men just don’t see the signals.

    They really don’t.

    So here is a bloody list of those signals, courtesy of The Flirting Bible by Fran Green :

    The Girlfriend Gab.
    When two or more women spot a guy they think is cute or otherwise remarkable, they will commonly huddle and whisper in a conspiratorial manner. Although it is possible that they will do this to trash a guy they see, it is much more common to be a sign of deep interest. When trashing a guy, look for their facial expressions.

    And if a man has any reason to suspect that he is the object of the gab, it is much more likely that it is of a positive note. Women would most likely trash a guy that they know from experience and so the guy would be onto the matter. If you walk into a room and see women huddling and whispering, and you have caught flashes of eye contact, this is a very good sign.

    The Peek-a-boo.
    Hiding her eyes behind a restaurant menu or other mask, she will drop the mask to reveal her eyes in a bid to entice a male to approach her. This is apparently learned as a child when played with by either parent and is replicated during adulthood.

    The Shy Geisha.
    You make eye contact with a woman. She then does something with her arms that frames her chest with one forearm and with the other she touches her shoulder. She will look down and away from you. This projects modesty.

    She might even smile.

    This is the most common USS on the planet, and it exists in all cultures from sophisticated salons of Paris to the African Savanna. The woman is projecting herself as feminine, submissive and socially worthy.

    The Sidelong Glance.
    Society lowers a woman’s value for being too aggressive with guys, so she might not feel comfortable even looking at you with more than quick, furtive glances. If you see a woman looking at you quickly and discreetly more than once, she’s checking you out.

    The Jewelry Tug/Fondle.
    Pulling gently at an earring or necklace can not only feel instinctively good, it is a way for her to highlight her decorations (plumage, so to speak). She will commonly look directly at you when doing this. This is a woman who wants to be approached.

    The Exposé.
    If a woman is contacting with you and she lets the shoulder of her sweater, or strap of her blouse or dress slip off her shoulder, it is a very strong come-on to you. She’s showing how at ease she is with letting you see her flesh. Same deal with…

    The Sole-Bearing Shoe Dangle.
    Like the Exposé, this is a way of transmitting comfort with revealing her flesh. Women are very conscious of their dress at all times, so when they allow a shoe to dangle off of the heel, it’s a super-subtle way of undressing a tiny little bit for you. It is socially safe for her (this isn’t Saudi Arabia), and it is a clear hint that clothes can come off if you play your cards right.

    If she’s actually jiggling her foot, that means she clearly wants you to notice the shoe dangle. Additionally, a woman might mimic the sex act by pushing and retrieving her foot from within a loose shoe.

    The Close Encounter.
    Women will sometimes invade a guy’s personal space in an obvious—if sometimes—fleeting manner. When getting off a bar stool, a woman can playfully get real close to a guy on the next stool and then exit that space.

    When a woman gets her entire body real close to you, notice if she had options, because if she did, you can be rest assured she knew about them. By choosing to get close to you, even if for a brief moment, she is flirting with you.

    The Space Invasion.
    Like the Close Encounter, this is a way of flirtatiously penetrating your personal bubble. She will use one or two hands to get nearer to you than is really necessary, and she will also look for signs of welcome (your smile).

    She might playfully gesticulate while speaking so her hand gets very close to you. Don’t recoil, and make sure you project some kind of welcoming signal.

    The Innocent Touch.
    A woman will never touch you unless she likes you. If a woman makes a casual and innocent display of putting her hands on you (picking off a piece of lint from your jacket, turning your wrist to look at your watch, or smoothing the lapels on your jacket), it’s to see if you’re smart enough to reward her for the effort.

    Right after you tell a funny joke is a common time a woman near you will probe you for physical approval. If she picks off your lint, playfully say you want your lint back and pick off an imaginary piece off of her (be careful where you do that).

    You must remember: this is a probe for your approval, so if she does not get any positive confirmation that you like her touch, she’ll interpret her touch as unappreciated and will back off.

    The Lean-2-U.
    In some cases it is not possible or favorable for a woman to physically touch you. An alternative for her is to lean toward you. If a woman leans toward you, don’t recoil!

    You don’t have to lean forward as well; you might remain still, but never lean away. She’ll pick up nothing but rejection from you and will split a moment later.

    Weathervane Palm.
    Women will use their hands like a weathervane to indicate interest—or disinterest—in a man. If she places her hand beneath her chin and points her palm toward you, that’s good. She is receptive to further conversation or may be demonstrating an interest in the current topic.

    If she points her knuckles at you, it’s bad. It may even project hidden hostility. If she was showing her palms and suddenly turns the hand, you might have just offended her.

    The Necking.
    When a woman bares her neck (often by using her hands to raise her hair out of the way), it signifies submission or vulnerability to the viewing male.

    The Underarm Flash.
    A woman’s underarms are rarely seen. She is aware that she is exposing them to you, and that’s “special” for her. Often part of The Head Toss and Hair Flick, it is an instinctual way of releasing pheromones (the “sex perfume”) to attract a man’s attention.

    The Primp.
    If a woman likes you, she might show her interest by refreshing her makeup for you to see. She may do it while you’ve strolled off to the lavatory. Whenever you return from a brief absence from your date, check her out for signs of primping. It clearly means she wants to look her best.

    The Head Toss and Hair Flick.
    Often the first cue of female interest. Tossing back the hair reveals the face, and reaching behind her head to adjust her hair will also reveal the armpit, which is an instinctual gesture to release pheromones.

    Wet Lips and Pouting, Mouth Slightly Open.
    Females have larger lips than males, and pouting is a way to increase their size. Sexual arousal makes a woman’s lips, breasts and genitals enlarged with blood flow (and redden). Moist, red lips are naturally arousing to men because they suggest an aroused vagina.

    Self-Touching.
    Our minds get our bodies to act out our secret desires. Women have dramatically more nerve sensors, making them more sensitive to physical touch. When a woman sensually strokes her neck, thigh, or throat, it implies that a man who plays his cards right will be welcome to touch her in these same ways.

    Simultaneously, this act lets her imagine what it would feel like to be touched in this manner by a desirable man.

    The Limp Wrist.
    Walking or sitting with a limp or dangling wrist is a submission signal exclusive to women and gay men. It is easily spotted, and a subtle but highly effective attention-getter. It conveys the message that this woman is submissive and feminine, and willing to be dominated by the right guy.

    Fondling a Cylindrical Object.
    Fondling cigarettes, a finger, the stem of a wine glass, a dangling earring or any other phallic-shaped object is an unconscious indication of what may be in the mind. Taking off and replacing a ring can suggest the sex act.

    Exposed Wrists.
    Be alert to a woman exposing her wrists to you. Women consider their wrists to be highly erotic (it is a very delicate skin area). It is believed that as a woman’s interest in a man grows, she will increase the frequency of wrist exposure. [I may be reaching here, but having her hands up, wrists out, is also the highly submissive posture of being pinned to a mattress during sex.]

    Sideways Glance Over Raised Shoulder.
    The raised shoulder creates a roundness mimicking the breast, and a glance that is fleetingly pulled away gives a peek-a-boo sensation to the woman who does it, and a peeped-at feeling for the man who gets this treatment. Marilyn Monroe was famously photographed many times doing this.

    Rolling Hips.
    Because of pronounced differences between males and females anatomically, rolling hips are a very strong sex distinction and signal. To accentuate this is to strongly project allure to a desired male.

    The Pelvic Tilt.
    The waist-to-hip ratio of 70 percent has been scientifically proven to be the most attractive to men, even in women who are much heavier than average. The best way to accentuate this waist-to-hip ratio is to tilt the pelvic while standing. This is one more way for a woman to appear more female.

    Handbag in Close Proximity.
    Women are very protective of their handbags, and men are commonly afraid to even look inside them. Therefore, when a woman “accidentally on purpose” places her handbag close to a man, she is conveying trust and intimacy in him. If she finds the man attractive, she might even fondle or caress her handbag. If she asks you to retrieve something from within her handbag, she is signaling interest.

    The Knee Point.
    One leg is tucked under the other and points to the person she finds the most interesting. This conveys informality and affords fleeting exposure of the thighs.

    The Leg Twine.
    A sitting posture in which a woman places one leg atop the other by pressing firmly, and thereby accentuating muscle tone. Often she will hold the upper leg in position by placing two hands with fingers laced onto her knee. This posture showcases her legs and accentuates her femininity.

    Arms Folded Across Chest.
    Never good. She’s shutting you out and feels threatened. When women like you, they display their breasts.

    • Women will stroke necklaces and jewelry (using middle or ring finger) to simulate the subconscious desire to handle you.

    • When women sit up to accentuate their posture, they do so to amplify their torso. This is a means of advertising their reproductive advantage (hip-to-waist ratio).

    • When a woman fluffs her hair with her hand palms out front toward you, this is good. If her knuckles are toward you, don’t assume anything good.

    • Generally speaking, if you make eye contact with a woman and she looks down, that’s good. If she looks laterally/horizontally, she’s undecided. If she looks up, move on; you’re toast.

    • If you are on the street and a woman catches your gaze, do not look away. She’ll take that as disinterest. Likewise if you see her look away (and down, usually), do not interpret that as disinterest. Looking away is her job, not yours. Be the alpha and refuse to look away (just don’t glare menacingly).

    Here is what women do to attract men. These are their signals. All of them in fact.

    So what happens when a guy is smart enough to notice these signals, and takes a chance to approach ?

    That’s right – she starts shit-testing him.

    And usually he fails them … and gets flaked on … eventually.

    Heh.

    So HUS’s problem is this :

    How in the hell do I make a guy notice me, and make him approach me, without ruining a possible relationship ?

  • J

    It sounds to me like they’d love her for being one of the guys.

    Also for being truthful about themselves and for admitting something men suspect about women that not so coincidentally gets them off the hook. Roissy tells men that “the average guy” is not attractive to women. Only alphas are attractive. Women who corroborate that idea to men who feel unattractive are telling them that not having a woman is not their fault. They are fine, average, normal. The problem is that those hypergamous women want too damn much.

    Women like our Sassy or like Sunshine Mary validate the idea that women love alphas. There’s hope for men if they “alpha” up. Women who claim to love their beta husbands are disbelieved because the implication is that if a man who claims to be a beta can not find love, then perhaps he really is an omega.

  • JP

    “Women are fucking hopeless at approaching men.

    Really.

    I’ve seen the women that tried. You end up feeling sorry for them.

    … and suspicious.”

    Um, no they’re not.

    If I had to approach women, I would have had zero girlfriends.

    It never even occurred to me that it was *my* job to do the approaching.

  • JP

    “Only alphas are attractive.”

    I’m fairly certain I’m not this alpha thing.

    I’m also not the beta thing either.

  • J

    Hi Marellus–

    Why is a woman approaching a man suspicious?

  • JP

    I think there is a real problem in terms of the UMC professional track.

    For example, you spend the first 21 years of your life in school, which has precisely zero relationship to anything outside of school. So, if you are good at being a student, you will do fine. You don’t even have to be productive or organized if you are intelligent enough because the work simply isn’t that difficult.

    At this point, you are dumped into a work environment that has precisely zero to do with anything you learned before in your entire life.

    In fact, now you are expected to *produce* something rather than just *be* something (meaning intelligent).

    So the entire education system isn’t designed with anything in mind outside of the educational system.

    The problem is that you grew up in an enclosed system that does nothing with respect to helping you navigate actual life once it ends.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Hope,

    I tend to look for deeper evidence of character/strength in men, which is probably why I don’t care for the restaurant thing. But I found myself much more attracted my husband as he described remaining calm in the face of death, taking a leadership / protector role to make sure his friends are okay, his ordeal in rural harsh conditions in Africa and in high altitude winter treks through mountains.

    Very few young men in our super sanitized and safe Western culture have come remotely close to a life threatening situation. Most of them have never even been on an unsupervised walk in the woods. That’s exactly why completely inconsequential things like the restaurant choice gain importance – women don’t have anything real on which to judge male character. Perhaps it doesn’t matter anyway – the female attraction to the leader / protector is largely atavistic in this culture.

  • mr. wavevector

    @ Susan,

    It may be useful as a symbol, but the danger is that guys glom onto it as something they should implement asap. That’s not particularly helpful if the rest of it doesn’t get addressed. It’s not the specific behavior that’s important, it’s the underlying attitude that results in that behavior, along with many other congruent behaviors.

    Absolutely. That ties back to the discussion of guys who don’t get the big picture and are just looking for a set of rules to follow.

  • mr. wavevector

    She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

    Yuck. NAMALT!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    J, I think you are right. I remember reading about a woman who was talking about her attraction triggers on a talk show and reported that, deep inside, she “wanted to be his #1, not his *only* one.” In other words, she was an alpha-chaser who needed a continuous contest with other women in order to feel fully engaged in the relationship. It wasn’t about “winning” the man per se, it was about beating other women and deriving satisfaction and validation from the competitive dynamic.

    Guys absolutely loved her little confessional, and applauded her honesty and insightfulness and so on.

  • JP

    “Very few young men in our super sanitized and safe Western culture have come remotely close to a life threatening situation.”

    College is life threatening. For example, having your head consistently smashed on the ground by a drunk idiot or have a drunk idiot throw knives at you, only to have them land in the wall next to you.

    “Most of them have never even been on an unsupervised walk in the woods.”

    Even I’ve been out in the woods in the middle of the night by myself. College was more dangerous.

  • JP

    I even had to help defuse a situation in college involving my former roommate who was running around the honors dorm drunk wielding a samuri sword, slicing up the elevator, trees, and the pass card reader. Police with guns were even involved.

  • J

    J, I think you are right.

    I applaud your good taste. ;-)

    I remember reading about a woman who was talking about her attraction triggers on a talk show and reported that, deep inside, she “wanted to be his #1, not his *only* one.” In other words, she was an alpha-chaser who needed a continuous contest with other women in order to feel fully engaged in the relationship. It wasn’t about “winning” the man per se, it was about beating other women and deriving satisfaction and validation from the competitive dynamic.

    No doubt there are some women like that. A lot of the ‘sphere’s ladies auxilliary is like that, but I think they are a minority IRL, especially in the upper SES levels, which require some love of stability to attain. I also notice that sort of woman regards other women as the enemy and men who cheat as innocent victims of those women. It’s the valise theory of male psychology; the man lacks volition and moral agency. He can just be picked up by his handle and walked away with like a valise.

    Guys absolutely loved her little confessional, and applauded her honesty and insightfulness and so on.

    Yep. And I believe that she was being candid–about herself. The mistake is seeing her as typical. I personally have had zero interest in competing with other women for men. If my husband ever cheated, as much as I love him, I’d coldly next him. And he would do the same to me. Who has time or energy for such nonsense?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I also notice that sort of woman regards other women as the enemy and men who cheat as innocent victims of those women.

      I’ve known several women like that and they all had one thing in common: They were cheated on. In fact, most of them chose one bad guy after another, got cheated on repeatedly, never blaming the guy. A few married men like that, with predictable results.

      These women are head cases, it’s best to ignore them. That’s what I do when I get emails from women with those stories.

  • J

    @JP–Yikes!

    Good on you though.

  • Anacaona

    It’s funny: if a woman comes on a board full of men and says that she wants to have sex with hot alphas with big cocks and money, and that she is secretly an attention-seeking, incoherent slut who has rape fantasies and the like, you would think that guys would hate her. But she is loved! I don’t think the reverse is true, though (the guy who went on a female board and talked about male sexual nature in equally stark terms would not be loved).
    She is confirming their ideas, they call it honesty but is just confirmation bias. It took me forever for men here to buy that I was a nerdy beta lover and even so one of them told me that I only liked my husband because he was American so it didn’t counted. Any woman that comes here and says the angrysphere approved script about womanhood gets thumbs up immediately. As you can see is not the honesty is the confirmation that gets the love.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As you can see is not the honesty is the confirmation that gets the love.

      We’re all subject to it, including me. But I have to say I am stunned by the level of bias among some people who are extremely intelligent. It’s like they park half their brain somewhere before they debate.

      I wonder if certain personality types are more susceptible to it – it seems correlated to rigidity.

  • J

    She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

    Yuck. NAMALT!

    But enough are to make Lara Croft popular. (Old farts, remember Diana Rigg in that black leather catsuit? When I was 9, I wanted to grow up to be her!)

    Funny story: I’ve been working out and, while I haven’t dropped as much weight as I wanted to, I have noticeably re-sculpted myself. I was showing off my biceps to a bunch of women at a dinner party, and a couple of their husbands got turned on, wanted to feel my arm, etc.

  • J

    @Ana #203

    Nah, it’s just that you, me, Hope and Susan are all lying bitches. IRL, we are all married to cheating alphas who beat us, but we have some nefarious motive for not admitting it. Probably hypergamy coupled with fear of the sisterhood.

    I personally just married my husband for those beta bux. I’m not longer attracted to him, dontcha know? Never was. I just got tired of the carousel.

    /sarc–for the sarcasm impaired

  • J

    @Hope and Ana

    I loved the Dune book series. Found both the film and the TV miniseries disappointing. Missed Cloud Atlas at the theater, but am waiting for it to show up on Netflix. I didn’t realize there was a book.

  • J

    So HUS’s problem is this : How in the hell do I make a guy notice me, and make him approach me, without ruining a possible relationship ?

    This would make a great post for the ladies to contribute to.

  • Anacaona

    Missed Cloud Atlas at the theater, but am waiting for it to show up on Netflix.
    Is already in Netflix that is how I watched it.

  • mr. wavevector

    But enough are to make Lara Croft popular.

    Lara Croft was popular because of her ass. You’re looking at it the whole time you’re playing.

  • Hope

    I admit I did a lot of “I love nerdy males” comments when I was in the sphere, but guys didn’t really hate on me that much, because I was polite and want angry with them. I think there was some element of it where because so many of them were nerdy outcast guys, they wanted to believe that there exist girls who actually would seek out and love their type.

    So I used to post at Roissy, before he got really popular. I think he really wanted to believe that I was into the alpha type. He posted some things that the ex said about me, and when I tried to look for the post it is nowhere to be seen… because he realized the ex was psychotic and crazy, and not what he would espouse to be the aloof, cool and sexy alpha at all. The ex was really actually a nerd, too, and I think my total consistency threw them for a loop.

    But maybe that’s why I didn’t get many real haters from the sphere. I posted a lot singing the praises of nerdy smart guys, and the nerdy smart guys who populate the Internet might pay more attention to the super hotties 9s and 10s, and they’re aspiring to be super alpha pick up artists, but they’re not going to go out of their way to discredit me.

  • J

    @Ana

    Cool. I’ll look for it again.

    @Wave

    Hmmm…I guess I really didn’t look at her ass. I must be heterosexual.

  • Hope

    Want angry should be wasn’t angry.

    J, agree about films and shows for Dune not being any good. But that’s maybe the fact that it’s a very deep story, and showing only the action doesn’t do it justice.

  • J

    @Hope

    It’s a very ideas-based book. You can’t translate that to film without becoming very dialogue heavy. It’s a pity because it’s such a cool book. Heinlein’s “Stranger in a Strange Land” is like that too. I used to think it would make a great movie, but I now see how slow and dialogue heavy it would be.

    Re Roissy/not hating on you

    You have such a sweet manner. Who could hate on you?

  • Anacaona

    Has anyone else had the most recent comments column disappear? :/

  • Hope

    J, I rather enjoy dialogue-heavy films, but there are ideas in Dune that can’t really be properly conveyed with dialogue either.

    Thank you for saying that I have a sweet manner. But I was kind of an annoying thorn on Roissy’s blog because I kept disagreeing. I think he wanted to show I was a hypocrite, but he took down the post in the end. I definitely didn’t ask him to do it.

  • Escoffier

    “Has anyone else had the most recent comments column disappear? :/”

    Yes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Has anyone else had the most recent comments column disappear? :/”

      Yes.

      Whoops. I’m working on the back end doing some technical stuff and design work. It should be invisible to you guys, but I guess not. In any case, bear with me.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    J, I think that a reason why men may quite enjoy a woman who espouses that “valise” theory of male sexuality is that many/most men do like to be sexually objectified.

    The woman who puts her man on a pedestal as a kind of attractive stud racehorse with little moral volition, enslaved to his penis, may be creating a situation in which it is basically the woman’s fault if the man cheats, as she failed to successfully please him and, indirectly, to compete with other women. It is easy to see how a man would personally benefit from such a worldview.

    The male intuition might—rightly or wrongly—be that a hyper-competitive female will break with any feminist union rules about sexual pricing, and will work extra hard to keep her partner’s penis in an unloaded, rendered-safe state at all times, will subordinate herself to his wants and comforts, etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The male intuition might—rightly or wrongly—be that a hyper-competitive female will break with any feminist union rules about sexual pricing, and will work extra hard to keep her partner’s penis in an unloaded, rendered-safe state at all times, will subordinate herself to his wants and comforts, etc.

      I don’t think that works. The man becomes bored with the same old same old, and cheats not to drain his testicles, but just to get some strange, make sure he’s still got the magic.

      When women give 110%, there’s declining incentive for him to come back for more. He’s seen and had it all.

      Bad Girl Game.

  • Richard Aubrey

    BB. So a judicious application of “dread” gets the action.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      BB. So a judicious application of “dread” gets the action.

      No way we’re going down this road. If you see comments disappearing, that’s me hammering the delete button.

  • J

    J, I think that a reason why men may quite enjoy a woman who espouses that “valise” theory of male sexuality is that many/most men do like to be sexually objectified.

    LOL. I’ll bet you do.

    The woman who puts her man on a pedestal as a kind of attractive stud racehorse with little moral volition, enslaved to his penis, may be creating a situation in which it is basically the woman’s fault if the man cheats, as she failed to successfully please him and, indirectly, to compete with other women.

    That’s a great desription of that mentality.

    It is easy to see how a man would personally benefit from such a worldview.

    Yep. And I’m always amazed at how these ladies don’t see that they are being played.

    The male intuition might—rightly or wrongly—be that a hyper-competitive female will break with any feminist union rules about sexual pricing, and will work extra hard to keep her partner’s penis in an unloaded, rendered-safe state at all times, will subordinate herself to his wants and comforts, etc.

    No doubt, but as I said, I’m always amazed at how these ladies don’t see that they are being played.

    What’s in for these women? It seems like an awful lot of work to retain the attentions of an unworthy man who will not only hurt you eventually but also blame you for “making him” hurt you. I much prefer to 1) be loved and 2) be able to return that love with out fear of being duped.

    I just don’t get what motivates these women.

  • Anacaona

    The male intuition might—rightly or wrongly—be that a hyper-competitive female will break with any feminist union rules about sexual pricing, and will work extra hard to keep her partner’s penis in an unloaded, rendered-safe state at all times, will subordinate herself to his wants and comforts, etc.
    Except that there is a difference between a woman immune or not that influenced by the herd and a woman that blatantly competes against it. The first might have a more independent wiring the second one shows lack of empathy and sociopathic tendencies. If you think she will be willing to throw her sisters under a bus for the sake of satisfying her hypergamy impulses but will be loyal and devoted to you. You are kidding yourself. Chances are when her hypergamy reaches a stable point she will be looking for a higher male or if the higher male shows she will do everything within her power to get him regardless who suffers.
    Those stories of women becoming ruthless in order to upgrade are very likely women that showed their tendencies of “I win no matter what” early on but the good sex and good looks can distract from the low character for a while, as usual, YMMV.

  • J

    J, I rather enjoy dialogue-heavy films, but there are ideas in Dune that can’t really be properly conveyed with dialogue either.

    Yeah, you really do have to read the books. DH hasn’t and regards the movie as the most sodden action adventure film ever made. I regard the film as somewhat more tolerable because I read the books. He’s a huge Tolkien fan and reads the LOTR trilogy over and over. I can’t get him into Dune because of the film.

    Thank you for saying that I have a sweet manner.

    You do.

    But I was kind of an annoying thorn on Roissy’s blog because I kept disagreeing.

    He has a very low tolerance for dissent.

    I think he wanted to show I was a hypocrite, but he took down the post in the end. I definitely didn’t ask him to do it.

    I don’t know if I ever saw that post. What was it aboout? (If you don’t mind rehashing things.)

  • J

    @BB

    LOL. I’ll bet you do. You meaning men, not you personally.

    And why is that men do seem to take being objectified by women as a compliment? I’m interested in your opinion.

  • BuenaVista

    Pip: “37 and 55 is something I just don’t encounter with 37 (or thereabouts) year-olds I know, unless the man is rich.”

    I’m just curious why this attribute is immaterial to attraction, or why it is a counter-argument to the notion that women, in fact, have sex with men not in their grad school seminar. When Demi Moore and her $100mm went after her Iowa boy, did it somehow prove that Demi was cheating the system, or something? Buying friendship? Is an older woman supposed to be judged *solely* on the basis of her age, such that her wealth is the only explanation for the marriage with Kutcher? How retrograde and misogynist. Your comment implies that an older man or older woman is using accomplishment to influence affection. Any husband who had a bad year will note, “And this is news?”

    Most people who have money are more attractive because they do more interesting things, have demonstrated leadership and talent, are capable of protecting other people, and have the mental and emotional space to conduct a love affair. Some people like that stuff, and evaluate lovers on the basis of a basket of qualities. Certainly in my case it’s a complete turn-off to find out that a woman hasn’t a prayer of buying a painting or flying me to Paris. I like having three houses, and respect those who know what’s required to do something similar.

    I grant you that the apex alphas — people like Ellison — do need to stay in shape. This is about the easiest thing in life to do. I will grant you that some men and women, over 45, are not creatures one wishes to see undressed. But that is a choice. I will also say that the most beautiful nude woman I’ve ever seen was 45 and a mother of three children. Most teenagers, by comparison, are obvious junk food aficionados, and please put a shirt on over that bikini, please? Perhaps women who get bent out of shape because some women prefer to date men who *are*, as opposed to men who *are becoming something, that something unknown*, should reconsider their animus. Or not. Your world is your world.

    On your native WV, a beautiful place: I enjoy the Laurel Forks wilderness area in WV, an astonishing 15,000 acres. And I have hunted some in the surrounding Monongahela NF. I love the old brick towns and wild side of WV. Many great evenings in Shepherdstown, in the memory bank.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When Demi Moore and her $100mm went after her Iowa boy, did it somehow prove that Demi was cheating the system, or something? Buying friendship? Is an older woman supposed to be judged *solely* on the basis of her age, such that her wealth is the only explanation for the marriage with Kutcher?

      That’s exactly how it was viewed by the public. Her money plus “she looks good for her age.” For how this works, see George Peppard and Patricia Neal in Breakfast at Tiffany’s.

      Most people who have money are more attractive because they do more interesting things, have demonstrated leadership and talent, are capable of protecting other people, and have the mental and emotional space to conduct a love affair.

      In my experience, the wealthiest people have the poorest character. Exceptions are rare. I also would not correlate wealth and attractiveness for men. (See John Henry and Bob Kraft for local Boston examples.) There’s more of a relationship for women who marry wealth.

  • Hope

    Anacaona, totally agree about the herd thing. I am not part of av herd, but I have an independent streak. I don’t actively compete with other women however. My husband was totally single when we met, so I knew I wasn’t having to steal him from another woman. The other thing he specifically noted was that I wasn’t attention-seeking like a lot of female gamers, and that I kept to myself and was quiet instead of trying to get all the guys to find me hot or whatever.

    J, honestly it was so long ago, like probably almost five years, that I don’t remember much of what was there. I just remember him posting some quotes from an email the ex sent him and saying, see, she claims to love nice loving behavior but actually goes for jerkish alphas! Then the ex probably kept posting stuff and made people think he was psychotic, and probably made it painfully clear why I didn’t want to be with him.

    But

  • BuenaVista

    Being objectified, as a man:

    It’s pleasant because it’s the slipping of layers upon layers of cultural diversion: the cloaking and suppression of female sexuality in bourgeois culture requires women to never express base lust, unless they are pros or proud sluts.

    I was pleased to see a nude picture of me in my ex-wife’s house, once. It was right out in the open on her dresser. Didn’t expect it. It didn’t compensate for much of what had happened, but at least I knew that she knew she wouldn’t be getting any more of *that*. (She didn’t, he’s a scale model.)

    I was also very naive when I was a good boy husband and I had no idea what the different female coding schemes were. I was talking about football once with her and a close girlfriend, and lamenting that while I could throw a football 60, my hand was too small to put three fingers on the laces. I could only manage two. I went on to explain that the great quarterbacks all have three fingers on the laces, and blah blah blah.

    My wife was turning red. She said, “It’s not like you think it is, Louise, hah hah hah.”

    Later, she said, “Don’t ever say you have small hands. You don’t.”

    I said, “I don’t have small hands, I just don’t have hands like Terry Bradshaw.”

    “You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you.”

    Once I did, I was very pleased. It was extremely important to her, that her best friend knew, what she was getting in the dark.

    Now that I am older, women talk all the time about my physical qualities. I suppose it’s because most men and women over 45 have asses with the constitution of cottage cheese. I love being objectified.

  • Hope

    Oops was going to say, but I had basically stopped posting very much in the sphere by that point, and I just didn’t have the notoriety factor going for me. Apparently I can’t even be drama-fest material when Roissy tried to make me into one. :p

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. Ref Auel. Point is, maybe men keep certain things to themselves for the same reason. Can’t afford for the protectees to know it.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    J, re: sexual objectification. I think that a lot of guys are so concerned about being exploited for resource-provisioning by a sex-rationing woman that the idea of being directly objectified by a woman as her hot lover is refreshing and validating.

    In fact, the majority of my married male friends who have cheated (caveat: I am talking about the cheaters who A) were not inveterate players pre-marriage, and B) cheated on their wives with women who were less objectively attractive than their wives) did so because they fell for women who provided this kind of psychological stimulation, who “made them feel good about themselves”, etc.

    I think that a sex-for-provisioning exchange ranks lower on the average man’s ideal lifestyle template than would a thoroughbred “stud” role in the SMP in which his alpha semen was prized for its superior genetic delivery, nutritional content, etc. I personally do not advise women to ever refer to their partners as betas, even if it is true and even if the men refer to themselves as betas. It is a trap, a kind of male shit-test.

    Men also tend to find women who are highly competitive with other women on “man pleasing” attributes to be very attractive (exhibit A: the two hot Brazilian female undergrads I mentioned awhile ago, who thought that a woman in low-sex marriage must be some kind of underperforming fuck up), but to find women who are highly competitive with men to be very unattractive. Being fought over by women is extraordinarily exhilarating to men, in part because it is so rare for most.

    I think that we also just try to extrapolate from certain present personality traits to forecast what kind of future relationship a woman presents. The female-vs.-female hyper-competitor appears to be a natural “pleaser” where her man is concerned.

    Your real black widow-type femme fatales are clearly very good at counterfeiting this, and I think that things that look too good to be true usually are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      in which his alpha semen was prized for its superior genetic delivery, nutritional content, etc.

      Nutritional content, are you serious? Wait, Go Ask Alice at Columbia has the scoop:

      “A typical ejaculation fills up about one teaspoon; the actual amount is determined by a man’s age (younger men usually make more semen), when he last ejaculated, and how long he’s aroused before ejaculating, among other factors. Contrary to what you’ve heard, semen is not loaded with calories. Each teaspoon of ejaculate has about 5 – 7 calories and some 200 – 500 million sperm. Since sperm make up only about 1 percent of semen, what accounts for the other 99 percent? Well, its other ingredients include:

      Fructose sugar
      Water
      Ascorbic acid (a.k.a., vitamin C)
      Citric acid
      Enzymes
      Protein
      Phosphate and bicarbonate buffers (bases)
      Zinc
      Can swallowing semen enrich a protein poor diet? Unless you’re gulping gallons of it each day, it’s no substitute for real nutritious cuisine!”

      I think you can do about as well with a Ding Dong.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You know how we are talking about a man describing his vulnerabilities could possibly become more attractive?

    A woman who describes her faults could possibly become more attractive, which is probably from which the “FINALLY AN HONEST WOMAN!” is derived.

    In contrast, protestations of NAWALT generally indicate deception and intra-female competition and shaming: “you are wrong, some women are like that, but we as a whole are morally pure, and especially me, so don’t you dare say anything bad about me.”
    Doubly compounded if this attitude is partnered with admonishment of men in general, exponentially so if general, unexamined blue-pill nonsense is being spouted.
    This is probably why some push-back is felt even here, because even here I sometimes feel the trace remnants of the above. I imagine other men, who are more sensitive to this, feel it more so, especially the sphere commenters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is probably why some push-back is felt even here, because even here I sometimes feel the trace remnants of the above. I imagine other men, who are more sensitive to this, feel it more so, especially the sphere commenters.

      As opposed to the “feral female” rantings of male commenters here.

  • BuenaVista

    SW: “That’s exactly how it was viewed by the public. Her money plus ‘she looks good for her age.'”

    Perhaps I misunderstand, but again I would say, “And?” When she’s not anorexic or intoxicated, she looks okay — better than a lot of college binge-drinking sorority girls. Her money made her more attractive to him. They got together. Why is the default response that he was a kept man, or that (sexes reversed), she would be a kept woman? Obviously the manosphere has its position on this, which I need not repeat because I don’t want the ban-hammer, but it does sure sound like an anti-competitive impulse (not unlike fatness defenders) that slanders age-disparate couples of any configuration.

    Perhaps the difference in perspective is that I just view money as a signifier, a symbol. And you and Pip view it as (literal) relationship currency. Hence I can’t get behind the idea that the only reason men might be in demand with younger females is “they’re rich”. My anecdotal response to that is that two of the three much younger women I’ve been with had more money than I. One (10 years younger) owned, in effect and through divorce, half of a movie studio. I sure didn’t. My planes had piston engines, not turbofans. Her friends were always pestering her: “How much, really, is BV worth?” — implication being that any couple in which serious money resides is explained only by the serious money. She said that she always responded “I don’t know and I don’t care, so long as he has his own.”

    I met Kraft once on the ramp at Hartford-Brainerd. He seemed to be a cheery, plump sort. He seems to have lost his shit, as you note, after his wife died. He and Belichick were setting new standards in embarrassing singles behavior there for a while. But I don’t hear their girlfriends complaining. And even though I think Suzy Wetlaufer is a pathological fraud, and I use the word “fraud” as a euphemism for a four-letter word that begins with “c”, is there any basis to assume that she and Welch are simply engaged in a financial transaction? They seem well-suited to each other, so far as I can tell.

    “There’s more of a relationship for women who marry wealth.”

    No idea what this means.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      Perhaps the difference in perspective is that I just view money as a signifier, a symbol. And you and Pip view it as (literal) relationship currency. Hence I can’t get behind the idea that the only reason men might be in demand with younger females is “they’re rich”. My anecdotal response to that is that two of the three much younger women I’ve been with had more money than I.

      Let’s not mince words. You are good looking.

      Ellen Barkin did not marry Ron Perelman for his looks. Georgina Chapman did not marry Harvey Weinstein for his looks.

      What these men offer is money and power. It is absolutely relationship currency. You have sex with the lights off, as infrequently as possible, and you live the high life.

      Mark Zuckerburg understood this. He knew very well that the only woman he could ever be sure of was the girl who loved him before facebook.

      Re Kraft, he was reportedly stepping out before Myra even got sick. The money was hers – it’s rather sad, actually.

      “There’s more of a relationship for women who marry wealth.”

      I meant that women who marry for wealth are generally better looking than the men they marry.

      Of course, good looking wealthy men will be in very high demand – you can have lots of money to spend and have sex with the lights on.

  • Hope

    Bastiat Blogger, a woman who is a “people pleaser” is quite more likely to be a “man pleaser” than a woman who treats other women terribly. You would never hear a truly kind, sweet and pleasant woman badmouth others. Though, I suppose that kind of woman is not as appealing in a more cut throat, competitive world of “hot” folks, but a simpler, more community-oriented social atmosphere.

    However, I could be extrapolating from my own set of experiences, where the kindest girls are happily married with kids, and they have been nothing but great to me and in their support for when I was going through pregnancy and baby issues. I stay away from mean girls who are overly competitive, and by proxy, the men they tend to keep in company.

  • Marc

    I frequent a few blogs. All are full of (I suspect) of 40 something women who are angry about 40 something men who are interested in women in their 20s and not them. They try to shame. Blame Mother Nature, not men. What you are witnessing is a natural dynamic. Dont try to buck it. You will fail. Lets all accept the fact that both men and women have their own “personal power” streak. They dont come at the same time for both sexes. If you were a hot, young chick at one time, embrace it, and savor your memories. All women were young at one time. Most were not hot. You were lucky.

  • Anacaona

    I personally do not advise women to ever refer to their partners as betas, even if it is true and even if the men refer to themselves as betas. It is a trap, a kind of male shit-test.
    My husband’s definition of Alpha is asshole and of Betas as not-asshole. He is happy with the moniker as I am, he wouldn’t want to think of himself as an asshole and he knows I rather fill my mouth with superglue than suck an asshole’s dick so we are good with Beta, YMMV.

  • JP

    @Susan

    “In my experience, the wealthiest people have the poorest character. Exceptions are rare.”

    Can you give an example of the level of wealth that you’re talking about here?

    5 million?

    10 million?

    50 million?

    100 million?

    I’m not trolling, I’m curious as to where you see the major problems begin, character-wise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      Can you give an example of the level of wealth that you’re talking about here?

      That’s an interesting question. We don’t really know what people are worth, do we? Have you ever driven by a ramshackle small house with a Range Rover in the driveway? I see that all the time. I know quite a few men who act like they’re worth well over $100 million, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see them declare bankruptcy. I also know people worth that much who live very modestly. A good friend of mine is in this camp – she runs her family’s real estate development business, but when her daughter graduated from college without a job, she refused to subsidize her lifestyle. (She did offer to let her live at home until she could afford an apartment.)

      My husband and I are not movers and shakers, but because we sent our kids to very selective private schools, we had ample opportunities to interact with those folks. Wow, talk about Alpha Male Syndrome. I won’t mention names – Boston is a very small town.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Bastiat Blogger, I also wanted to comment on this:

    In fact, the majority of my married male friends who have cheated (caveat: I am talking about the cheaters who A) were not inveterate players pre-marriage, and B) cheated on their wives with women who were less objectively attractive than their wives) did so because they fell for women who provided this kind of psychological stimulation, who “made them feel good about themselves”, etc.

    I don’t excuse cheating, but I also personally take an attitude of “I will try to be the best girlfriend/wife I can possibly be, and if you still cheat on me, it’s on you.” I constantly tell my husband how hot and sexy he is, make him feel good about himself, and of course don’t turn him down or do any kind of sex-rationing.

    But I do all this without putting down other women. I do not make disparaging remarks against other women to my husband, nor did I appear “hyper-competitive” to try to paint other women in a negative light. I just don’t see the point in it. I think something like that is more likely to backfire against a good man, because he would probably think of the woman as a “crazy bitch,” who although today uses those words against other women, might turn those harsh words on him one day.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    To be fair, Ding Dongs have a fair bit more than 5 calories!

    Also, I would suggest that a number of the “feral female” commenters have taken their leave. Anyways, two wrongs and a right. Although I fully understand the desire to fire back at someone who is lobbing pot-shots.

    @ Hope
    Every person has some sort of negative trait that, with time, can grow to destroy a relationship. It’s up to each of us individually to manage our weaknesses. For instance, last night I spent 3 hours reading about astrophysics. Pro-tip, dark matter, dark energy, and dark flow are all concepts that have nothing to do with each other!
    If I have a family someday, I am going to have to reign that in, and be VERY aware that my thirst for knowledge can spiral out of control.

    Funny thing I was looking at yesterday…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0GI2GHgwBI
    Truly amazing video, looks like it is right out of the show.

    Ummm..
    lost his family making that video apparently!

  • Hope

    ADBG, babies mostly entertain themselves on random cords, household objects and flour lint. Especially as the dad, my husband has plenty of time still for his own interests.

    Another anecdote from my manosphere days, somewhat related to this topic. I was friendly to other women, and a few of us started a “girl game” blog. My husband and I met up with one of the girls and her boyfriend, and the four of us had dinner together. I don’t think that would have happened if I was super competitive and disparaging toward other females.

    Plus, and forgive the new agey speak, it’s just easier to go through life unencumbered by negative energy.

  • Anacaona

    ADBG, babies mostly entertain themselves on random cords, household objects and flour lint.
    And chasing house pets. Which solves two problems! :D

  • VJ

    And…we’re done here. Intellectuals? Mocked, relentlessly. Introspective? A wholly unknown dating specimen to most of the women under the age of 50–60, and most certainly unwelcome to the point of being labeled ‘hopeless Nice Guys’, (NG, TM) .
    http://jezebel.com/meet-your-next-bad-date-the-intellectual-man-child-733674542

    Ref. here also: http://jezebel.com/5838994/a-field-guide-to-nice-guys

    For the record. ‘VJ’

  • BuenaVista

    @SW, 245:

    I’m being repetitive so I’ll stop — momentarily.

    When Weinstein was profiled by Auletta in The New Yorker (“Beauty and the Beast”) I think it’s fair to say that it was deemed a hit job, and indeed, someone who knows Weinstein as well as anyone said, “Did you read that profile? We were disappointed in Ken.” Without mediating myself I blurted, “I don’t know, I thought he sounded like a pretty cool guy. I don’t know how you reinvent an entire industry without pissing everyone off.”

    But then I think entrepreneurism — not the Zuckerberg variety, which is the fun variety where you stumble through a door and unwittingly ring the bell on your first project, but the Edison variety, where you fail as much as you succeed, for a few decades and sleep on the office floor in middle age — is, objectively a useful form of insanity.

    To your comment I would again just say, Sure, Chapman married him in part because of the G-IV. But I would suggest she wouldn’t have married him if he had been a hedge fund manager with a G-IV. There are hundreds if not thousands of those guys, and they have better balance sheets. The guy’s MMV has to do with being a seminal figure in American cinema history, of which his (cyclical, incidentally; he was in trouble when he remarried) wealth is a signifier of achievement rather than the achievement itself. It signified: access to a rarefied social, professional and political elite, coerced celebrity consumption of her crappy couture, immediate status elevation. To break form for a moment and actually agree with you on something, it certainly had nothing to do with sex or what us lowly romantics refer to as “love.” But sex and love just aren’t important to some people, who are playing a different game. Many days I think that they are right to do so. So fine, to each his/her own.

    Ergo I think that it is extremely unattractive for women to snark on these women and the sorts of marriages they achieve, just as it is unattractive (and much more socially unacceptable, which should tell us something about the imperative I dare not name) about a man ripping another man for getting stupid rich. (IOW, I thought less of Auletta than I did of the man he was supposedly shaming and cutting down to size.)

    Thank you for the complement on my appearance, but I refuse to believe that, therein, lies any of the modest appeal I may carry for some women. I think looks stopped being the dependent variable in my SMV or MMV calculation long, long ago. Looks, like a bit of dough, just qualify one for the initial interview.

    In your neck of the woods, there is a certain Secretary of State who married $1B. Did her money influence him? Of course. No one buys that yacht on a Senator’s pay. But anecdotes I’ve heard suggest that there is and has been far more to that arrangement (Teresa once said, in his presence and the presence of a friend and many others at a dinner party, “Haha, these men will never stop thinking with their dicks”). Did they marry for love and sex? No, of course not, but Kerry had his choice of dozens of wealthy women. He, and she, were solving a different problem. Peace out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ergo I think that it is extremely unattractive for women to snark on these women and the sorts of marriages they achieve

      I’m far more inclined to snark on the man. The woman’s strategy is a winner – what did the man get in return? Because I can guarantee you she doesn’t have the hots for the ugly rich guy.

      But sex and love just aren’t important to some people, who are playing a different game. Many days I think that they are right to do so. So fine, to each his/her own.

      I think that’s fine when both people share the same priorities. I think far too often the exchange is money for sex and love. And I don’t think that works very well.

      Did they marry for love and sex? No, of course not, but Kerry had his choice of dozens of wealthy women. He, and she, were solving a different problem. Peace out.

      He hit on my daughter in the summer of 2010. He married TH for the money. Mostly, she drinks herself into a stupor and leaves him alone.

  • BuenaVista

    VJ: isn’t Jezebel just a sideshow? Aren’t they just power-tripping under the fantasy that their job is to subordinate all men, in any form that those men arrive (Tucker Carlson fashion) with a new suit of feminist-directed clothing? What percentage of the female population delights in such trashing of men, for any reason, at any time? 5%? There are loudmouths in any sphere who profit today from eyeballs and click-whoring. Then they face-plant, turn 40, get arrested, otherwise vanish. No one’s obituary is going to lead with “made snide remarks on an unpaid gig as a blogger in order to enrich Nick Denton.”

    I glance at Jezebel a few times a week, because it teaches me whom to ignore. Jalopnik I enjoy, because they at least have something joyful and interesting to contribute (while enriching Nick Denton without compensation).

  • Richard Aubrey

    BV.
    As regards Lurch, may he rot, you can’t buy much on a Senator’s pay. That’s why spending a mill or five to get the job has a smell-test issue.

  • JP

    “To break form for a moment and actually agree with you on something, it certainly had nothing to do with sex or what us lowly romantics refer to as “love.” But sex and love just aren’t important to some people, who are playing a different game. Many days I think that they are right to do so. So fine, to each his/her own.”

    Love, in this sense, is a specific type of emotional bond between two people.

    It does not matter whether it is *important* or what *game* they are playing.

    The bond exists.

    It can be made, it can be sustained, and it can be severed.

  • Escoffier

    “Because I can guarantee you she doesn’t have the hots for the ugly rich guy.”

    I don’t think this can be said definitively. Leaving aside the ususal “there are always exceptions/left and right tails of the dist. curve,” etc. Looks simlpy matter less for women than they do for men. So if we were all to tally up in our heads happy couples in which the M is quite a bit less physically attractive than the F–both couples we know and famous people we are simply aware of–we will find that such couples are not so uncommon and far more common than the reverse.

    A Lennon-Ono pairing is more striking, because quite rare, than (say) a Barkin-Perelman pairing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Looks simlpy matter less for women than they do for men. So if we were all to tally up in our heads happy couples in which the M is quite a bit less physically attractive than the F–both couples we know and famous people we are simply aware of–we will find that such couples are not so uncommon and far more common than the reverse.

      Yes, and the other “compensations” generally come in the form of status and wealth. For a Harvey Weinstein to get an attractive wife, a great deal of status and wealth is required.

      We’ve been over this ground many times, this is Female Attraction Cues 101. If looks are missing, he needs to be scoring high elsewhere.

  • JP

    “Yes, and the other “compensations” generally come in the form of status and wealth. For a Harvey Weinstein to get an attractive wife, a great deal of status and wealth is required.

    The is Female Attraction Cues 101.”

    Some very attractive men are very in love with unattractive women.

    This is Reality 101.

    However, it’s also the exception that proves the rule.

  • Escoffier

    A comment of mine seems to have been eaten.

  • JP

    I hope the new format on the blog works well for you Susan.

    What is the name of the painting that used to be at the top of the blog?

    I can’t recall off the top of my head.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I hope the new format on the blog works well for you Susan.

      What is the name of the painting that used to be at the top of the blog?

      Thanks, a more professional look is long overdue.

      The painting is The Andrians (Bacchanalia) by Titian.

  • Escoffier

    Anyway, here is what I was trying to say.

    “For a Harvey Weinstein to get an attractive wife, a great deal of status and wealth is required”

    Not necessarily. From what I have read, HW has a super-aggressive, commanding personality. A non-trivial number of women are attracted to that intrinsically. His status and wealth you might say are the external rewards of that personality. Some women will be attracted only to those rewards but many others will be attracted to their foundation. This is why so many above average SES men with non-forceful personalities do worse with women than conventional SES losers with forceful personalities.

    There are lots of examples one could cite, but let’s stick with Tom Wolfe. Remember Martha Starling Croker from Man in Full? She was the Southern deb daughter of a Richmond doctor. Yet she fell hard for Charlie Croker in college even though he was a total hick—so hickish that she was embarrassed to introduce him to her parents and friends. But she was so insanely attracted to him that she had sex with him on their first date (this in the 1960s Deep South, no less). Conventionally, her marriage to him was “hypogamy,” he was a dumb cracker. But she was attracted to what Wolfe calls his “rude animal” qualities and his “manhood.” (He was a college football player, so some conventional status there, but not handsome and he went bald young.) It worked out for her in that these qualities eventually accrued him tons of money and status. But she married him without any of that and without any guarantee they would ever come. The attraction was his domineering personality.

    And then Serena, whom Charlie dumps Martha for, is much younger (I think when the novel begins she is 28 and he is 60) but Wolfe makes clear that they had a vigorous sex life. At least before Charlie’s debts made him impotent. She was certainly attracted to the money and status but she was also physically attracted to him. Wolfe gives us an interior monologue where Charlie, getting into bed, is terrified that Serena is going to come on to him and he is afraid that he can’t get it up. She’s still into him despite already having access to all the money.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Did Charlie Croker have a very ugly face?

  • Anacaona

    I think that’s fine when both people share the same priorities. I think far too often the exchange is money for sex and love. And I don’t think that works very well.
    More confirmation bias at work. Everytime women say here “Regardless of the exceptions you pay attention to, most women marry and stay married to men that are not considerably older, even in the third world where is no taboo for a man to exercise his sexuality most women fall in love with men that are within 10 years or less”
    Then some men here call it shaming and trying to control men sexuality and all that jazz. Nope we are just telling what we hear in the pajama partys and when we meet for coffee. Read how many romance novels have considerably older leads. Women don’t fantasize about wrinkles that is for sure, YMMV.

  • Escoffier

    Wolfe does not say “very ugly” but he indicates that while Charlie had a strong body, he was otherwise average in looks, went bald very early, and in terms of manners and social “polish,” he was straight out of the dogpatch. So much so that Martha could not bear the thought of bringing him to Richmond to meet her parents and friends.

    Certainly by the time Charlie is 60, he must fit the proflie you are talking about. And yet Serena marries him. Certainly for the money–even Charlie acknowledges that, to himself. But they are also hot for each other and Wolfe goes into some lurid detail about all the sex they have before Charlie’s debts worry him so much that they cause insomnia and impotence. Then, to his other fears, he starts to worry that he might lose her because he can no longer satisfy her sexually.

  • Anacaona

    One of my comments was eaten up.

  • Hope

    I like the new layout, Susan! I like sans-serif fonts better. Easier on the eye (for me at least).

  • Escoffier

    Second time that has happened. Grrrr.

    S, Wolfe does not say whether Charlie is “very ugly”. He makes clear that Charlie was short but strong, went bald very young, and otherwise was not good looking. So he had the muscles to generate attraction but nothing else physically, the baldness was a negative, and his dogpatch speech and manners were huge negatives.

    By the time he gets Serena, he is in the category you are talking about, viz., horny old goat with money. She certainly marries him for the money–Charlie even admits this to himself–but she is also attracted to him. Wolfe talks about all the sex they have before his debts give him impotence and insomnia. Then he gets worried because she is still frisky for him but he can’t satisy her.

  • Valentin

    I hate the new layout: it’s way too narrow and there is no “last page of comments” button.

  • mr. wavevector

    I find the blockquotes hard to read in the new format. There is too little contrast between the two shades of grey. Try some of the other fifty shades, please ;-)

  • mr. wavevector

    I hate the new layout: it’s way too narrow and there is no “last page of comments” button.

    I second this feedback. Given that the some comment threads have run to over 20 pages, it’s really hard to navigate without being able to jump to the last page, or jump to a previous page number if you’re trying to find a previous comment.

    Plus the contrast between text and background is too low on the blockquotes, as per my last comment which appears to be in limbo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Keep your boxers on fellas. I’ll be tweaking it for a while. I will get the comment pagination back.

      I welcome all constructive feedback.

      Just like your mama used to say, hate is a very strong word.

  • Emily

    The orange! It burns!!!!

  • Emily

    I do think that there needs to be numbers next to the comments.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Discussion about female attraction triggers and flexibility always reminds me of Bear Grylls for some reason. My impression is that if he was a nerdy college student playing dungeons and dragons, dressed poorly, etc, he would be considered repulsive.

    It also makes me think that if Sheldon Cooper had “Prince of Wales” as his title instead of “PhD,” and he spent his time in a suit and listening to physics conferences and talking to professors instead of being shown playing video games, he would be considered High SMV, albeit low EQ, despite having the exact same personality.

  • Emily

    >> “It also makes me think that if Sheldon Cooper had “Prince of Wales” as his title instead of “PhD,” and he spent his time in a suit and listening to physics conferences and talking to professors instead of being shown playing video games, he would be considered High SMV, albeit low EQ, despite having the exact same personality.”

    Duh.

  • J

    Wow! New format.

    The new masthead is cleaner and more professional looking, but a little cold. Maybe red or pink instead of the orange in the male/female symbols?
    Maybe a more serif-y font? I dunno.

    I think the tone you want to set is, “This is serious talk about relationships.” Warm, but serious.

  • JP

    “My impression is that if he was a nerdy college student playing dungeons and dragons, dressed poorly, etc, he would be considered repulsive.”

    At one point I was invited to play a D&D game in college.

    Given D&D culture, it was inappropriate for me to treat it as a humorous adventure in performance art. Apparently, spending your time randomly attacking the local flora and fauna (which then nearly kills you) as opposed to actual adventuring is frowned upon. In addition, refusing to leave the tavern where you started because you want to spend your money on wine, women, and song, rather than going on actual adventuring is also frowned upon.

    So, thus ended my one and only D&D adventure in college.

  • Valentin

    Susan: I use the word rather casually, don’t take it personally.

  • Valentin

    Oh and I realised last page isn’t the only useful link: we really have to go back to each page being a link for quick navigation to that comment we read two days ago and want to reply to now.

  • JP

    Did my comment die? Or do I need to recomment?

  • Anacaona

    I do think that there needs to be numbers next to the comments.

    Cosign this suggestion.

    It also makes me think that if Sheldon Cooper had “Prince of Wales” as his title instead of “PhD,” and he spent his time in a suit and listening to physics conferences and talking to professors instead of being shown playing video games, he would be considered High SMV, albeit low EQ, despite having the exact same personality.
    You know that Sheldon is the favorite male character, right?

  • Emily

    Sheldon might be the favourite, but I don’t think many women would want to date him. That’s part of what makes Shamy so magical!

  • Anacaona

    Sheldon might be the favourite, but I don’t think many women would want to date him. That’s part of what makes Shamy so magical!
    In the last comic con Jim Parsons was asked for his DNA = sweat in a napkin. You would be surprised. Not sure how long it will last but as with Spock and Data many women will like to try. Aloof Sigma >>>>> Alpha, YMMV.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    Jim Parsons has won a well-deserved Emmy for his role, so I take it that there are at least some people who like the character. He is certainly MY favorite on the show, but that’s because all of the characters are horribly pathetic children. At least in the episodes that I have seen, the male characters have demonstrated extremely little intelligence, just more awkwardness and geeky interests.

    I find myself contempetous of them and only really liking Sheldon. I imagine that if I were in that universe…wait, I was, it was called college. Yep, I behaved quite similarly to Sheldon when stuck in that same environment ;)
    So much so that several friends have commented that, yes, I do seem like a Sheldon-type!

    ANYWAYS,
    Sheldon possessing the highest SMV in a room full of SMP outcasts is hardly indicative of his SMV in the “real world.” Lets put Sheldon against Ryan Gosling and see which one the girls flock towards?

    The bigger point that a few subtle changes in Sheldon’s presentation and lifestyle can DRAMATICALLY increase his SMV. A lot of his negative personality traits are going to get hand-waved away.

    The unmentioned point is that intelligent men, if they wish to increase their SMV, should stop learning and stop advancing the frontier of human knowledge.

  • JP

    “The unmentioned point is that intelligent men, if they wish to increase their SMV, should stop learning and stop advancing the frontier of human knowledge.”

    It’s an issue of hypertrophy, more than “advancing the frontier of human knowledge”.

    Learning always needs to be put into the appropriate context and without certain experiences that are separate from the information in question, such context is impossible because of the lack of understanding of actual human nature as lived by actual people.

  • JP

    My comment died again.

    :(

  • Anacaona

    At least in the episodes that I have seen, the male characters have demonstrated extremely little intelligence, just more awkwardness and geeky interests.
    I’m starting to think that your friends that you describe as ‘problematic’ are just nice guys and you are just ‘too superior’ to acknowledge that they might be better people than you ever aspire to. Had that though occurred to you?

  • BuenaVista

    I miss the Titian. I love (what I take to be) Helvetica. Congrats on the thing working today.

    The feature I would most suggest is this:

    An auto-refresh, so that as new comments arrive they are applied without a reload. A secondary element of this is all unread comments are shaded some distinctive color. Then a keystroke (in my example, below, it is ‘z’) auto-advances and turns the unread to the read. In this way people can more efficiently slide over unread, turgid commentaries by people they find tedious. Also, if you do this, no need to break the posts into multiple pages, which is easier for the tablet crowd.

    Example: (Caution: it’s about football, the spread offense being attempted in the midwest, etc. Skip over that, and in the comments just hold down the ‘z’ key and watch the comments fly past.):

    http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2010/10/17/1756852/this-week-with-bo-schembechler-or-flag-football-is-for-girls

    Don’t know if this is possible within WordPress.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ana

    I’m starting to think that your friends that you describe as ‘problematic’ are just nice guys and you are just ‘too superior’ to acknowledge that they might be better people than you ever aspire to. Had that though occurred to you?

    LOL! Well, seeing as you are talking to someone who struggled with depression through most of his life, I would say that, yes, that thought occurred to me more than a few times!

    I have no doubts that my most of my male friends are good guys with a lot of positive traits to them. On the other hand, I believe they are getting in their way WRT relationships and are sabotaging their own chances and lowering their SMVS needlessly.

    Everyone has a mix of character traits, and character traits can be good or bad depending on how people manage them, and what situation the world is in, and what situation they personally are experiencing.

    I like the Prince of Egypt. It’s a Disney-esque adaptation of Exodus. They have this song called “Through Heaven’s Eyes.” One of my favorite lines:

    To one last sheep, a shepard boy is greater than the richest king

    Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with SMP and SMV dynamics. Women and men do not look at the world through heaven’s eyes. They look at it through their own eyes. This should be self-explantory, if it was really the natural state of people to look at others “Through Heaven’s Eyes,” then we wouldn’t have to write a damn song about it!

    Your SMV is not based on your worth to humanity and your success in the SMP is not based on how much you contribute.

  • JP

    “Women and men do not look at the world through heaven’s eyes. They look at it through their own eyes. This should be self-explantory, if it was really the natural state of people to look at others “Through Heaven’s Eyes,” then we wouldn’t have to write a damn song about it!”

    Well, one of the problems with eyesight is the existence of lacuna.

    It’s a good starting point to realize that you have lacuna.

  • JP

    “Women and men do not look at the world through heaven’s eyes. They look at it through their own eyes. This should be self-explantory, if it was really the natural state of people to look at others “Through Heaven’s Eyes,” then we wouldn’t have to write a damn song about it!”

    This is actually an experience that you can have, apparently.

    However, having no interest in jamming my hand into the spiritual wall socket, it’s not something I would seek out.

    But for this guy, it really did help him out. Not that he did it on purpose. And not that you *can* do it on purpose or on command.

    And that complete’s today’s metaphyical lesson.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Jp

    Learning always needs to be put into the appropriate context and without certain experiences that are separate from the information in question, such context is impossible because of the lack of understanding of actual human nature as lived by actual people.

    No disagreement here.

  • Hope

    ADBG, talk about malleable attraction triggers. When I found out that Matt Damon and Ben Affleck played Dungeons and Dragons when they were younger, my interest level went up. In fact Damon was my college age crush for a long time because of his nerdy background and the fact that he played those kinds of roles. I found him to be way more attractive in Good Will Hunting than the action movies.

  • Hope

    “intelligent men, if they wish to increase their SMV, should stop learning and stop advancing the frontier of human knowledge.”

    Why do they have to stop? Why can’t they learn both knowledge and emotional intelligence? Are these mutually exclusive?

    I love intelligent men with high EQ. Maybe they don’t have the highest SMV, but they have sky-high MMV. The SMP is for people who want to act like animals, and staying out of it is really just, well, smart.

  • Abbot

    .

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    Some pages of comments back, you mentioned that you can tell from conversation whether the man is introspective or not.
    What would be the characteristics of one or the other?

  • Anacaona

    LOL! Well, seeing as you are talking to someone who struggled with depression through most of his life, I would say that, yes, that thought occurred to me more than a few times!
    The depression state is not looking for introspection but to undermine one self. If during your emotional healthy stage you examine your self honesty then is an entirely different situation.

    I like the Prince of Egypt.

    Finally something you like! :D

  • JP

    Re: “Speak Your Mind”

    Funny comment.

    Even funnier since that’s what we called our old pen and paper chat board in high school. “Speak Your Mind”

    Got bored during class, so we just passed the paper around to each other commenting randomly.

    I suppose that’s where I first developed my sophisticated random commenting skills. Since it wasn’t like we had a blog post, just a blank piece of lined paper.

  • JP

    “Why do they have to stop? Why can’t they learn both knowledge and emotional intelligence? Are these mutually exclusive?”

    They’re not mutually exclusive.

    But in order to achieve at a certain level in specific areas, you have to be monomaniacal. Or so they say.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    Abbot says:
    July 11, 2013 at 6:32 pm
    (nothin’)

    Finally!

  • Sai

    I wholeheartedly approve of this post and recommend that everyone look for a partner who (at least) occasionally recognizes that s/he is not perfect, and thinks about what could use improvement.
    I almost recommend just being alone over being with somebody who assumes they don’t ever need to fix/change anything -YMMV.

  • Vitor

    Previous layout was much better with regard to visualizing and reading comments, imho.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Vitor

      I’m working on the comments layout. You’d be amazed – it’s actually unusual and apparently difficult to request comment numbering and pagination.

      The previous theme offered it but had many other problems.

  • Vitor

    Even though I am a woman, I often do not understand what other women want.

    From my manly perspective and own experience, the most logical explanation I can give about what women want is that they don’t know either. But some seem to know better than others.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    I like a lot of things :P
    In general, I like shows and books and movies that either mock or attack social norms, or warm positive messages of inclusiveness that show both the flaws and strengths of humans.
    So I really like Community and to some extent Glee. I also like Newsroom and Girls.
    Also, when emotionally healthy, I NORMALLY don’t consider other human beings to be so far superior to me that I could never hope to match them ;)
    I do spend quite a bit of time on introspection. I go on 45 minute walks 4-5 times a week.

    @ Hope
    I don’t mean to suggest that intellectual men should abandon their intellectual pursuits and pursue increased SMV full-time. Or trying to maximize SMV of their partner.
    HOWEVER:
    It behooves us to understand that while we all have a number of positive traits, well, certain traits are valued in the SMP, and some are not.
    Relatively small changes and some effort can make a big difference in the SMP. This may be independent of your ability to contribute to human well-being.
    Ex: To one lost sheep a shepard boy is greater than the richest king.
    To standard middle-class Western women, a shepard boy is a dirty nomad and a King is a King.
    It’s not that the Shepard Boy should try to make himself into a King, or that Sheldon should try to behave like a Prince, but they can and should take efforts to mimic some of their successful SMV. This is better for everyone.

    More practical ex: Going into my senior year, my professors tried to get me to continue my economics education. Continuing to study in my mid-20s and becoming a TA or whatever may let me research economics and contribute marginally to our understanding of the world.
    On the other hand, my current accounting job is higher status in many sectors, and it pays more, which allows me to buy other high-status things. Better SMV. Less intellectual value.

    I am not saying what trades are the CORRECT ones to take, but for a lot of us, there exists a trade-off.

  • Anacaona

    Also, when emotionally healthy, I NORMALLY don’t consider other human beings to be so far superior to me that I could never hope to match them ;)I do spend quite a bit of time on introspection. I go on 45 minute walks 4-5 times a week.
    If the only thing you talk about is how much better than every one of your so called friends (and humanity in general) you are. I think those walks are not introspective more like mental wanking, YMMV.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    I saw you asked for opinions on the layout.

    1. Page/comment numbers.
    2. Options to skip between page numbers (having to go new entries every time is a pain, unless I am missing something.)
    3. Colours are a little clinical.

    I like the font and comment layout however. Way easier to read/skim.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    Acknowledging the strengths of some people and the weaknesses of others is not the same as elevating them to superior social positions or assuming superiority.

    On the other hand, sometimes people are throw into absolutely dysfunctional systems with dysfunctional people, or situations that are toxic specifically to them.

    That still doesn’t mean they have an attitude of absolute superiority.

    As for my friends, again, acknowledging their weaknesses in dating, which are weaknesses that many men share, does not mean I am inherently superior. Higher SMV=/=better.

  • Anacaona

    As for my friends, again, acknowledging their weaknesses in dating, which are weaknesses that many men share, does not mean I am inherently superior. Higher SMV=/=better.
    I always had though that and I hope that you seriously believe it too.
    If not let me tell you that are coming across as feeling superior to them and in general more often than not.
    I love Sheldon but he can be an annoying asshole at times I hope when your friends point you out to how much alike you are they don’t mean it in a bad way. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they do, YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    ADBG “Going into my senior year, my professors tried to get me to continue my economics education. Continuing to study in my mid-20s and becoming a TA or whatever may let me research economics and contribute marginally to our understanding of the world.”

    I believe my husband is contributing far more to advancing human knowledge of the world by doing the work that he does than staying in grad school to go for a PhD. What my husband does could potentially save lives by diagnosing specific strains of infection far more quickly. It’s not always the case that those who sit in the ivory tower doing “research” contribute more to understanding of the world.

    Susan, I have experience with WordPress and skinning themes (and the backend CSS/JavaScript/PHP/WordPress code). I can take your other theme with the comment pagination and apply them to your current one. Or I can reskin your old theme into something more modern, a hybrid of the two, or whatever. Let me know if you want some help.

  • J

    “No, you definitely need to look at the mother-in-law.”

    “No, look at the FATHER in law, because daughters tend to resemble their dads and sons their moms.”

    I dunno. Don’t we all have two parents and take traits from them at random.

    The older I get the more my face reminds me of my dad’s sisters, though I’m built just like my mom.

    I have two sons. The older looks like my dad and I; the younger is a clone of my my husband

  • Emily

    “1. Page/comment numbers.
    2. Options to skip between page numbers (having to go new entries every time is a pain, unless I am missing something.)
    3. Colours are a little clinical.

    I like the font and comment layout however. Way easier to read/skim.”

    + 1

    I also think that it would be a good idea to take Hope up on her offer. Those headers that she designed before were awesome! :D

  • http://3dnyomtato.wordpress.com 3dfizz

    I’m going to download the book, just because I’m curious from the men’s side…

  • Liz

    Escoffier:

    A Lennon-Ono pairing is more striking, because quite rare, than (say) a Barkin-Perelman pairing.

    Have you seen Yoko Ono when she was younger? She had a dynamo body. But also as an artist and person she certainly pushed his buttons. Anyway Lennon wasn’t that great-looking anyway, especially with the beard & long hair.

  • BuenaVista

    Just clicked 7-8 times and waited for a page to load each time. I don’t recommend this format. I know WordPress allows one to load a complete comment stream because I’m moving one of my websites over to WordPress. (Given the number of comments HUS generates (hundreds per topic), even with the page and comment numbering with the old template, one had to guess or remember which 150-comment segment should be loaded.)

    Strongly recommend this, as well as invoking a ‘read-unread’ visual key (shade the unread comments so one knows where to stop scrolling to read the new stuff) so that frequent readers or contributors load the comment stream once and can skip ahead to the point at which the unread comments begin.

    Good luck with the transition.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve installed an AJAX comment loading plugin, which should take effect shortly and help a great deal.

      I’m looking into the read/unread key – but it’s lower on my list than comment numbers and pagination right now.

      Re the site layout, it is precisely the same as before.

      Re the colors, a fair amount of research actually went into this! Plus I love the color scheme. That stays.

      The design has been tested and chosen by young people, who really can’t relate well to Titian at 21. :) I’m getting a lot of good feedback on the increased professionalism of the design.

      I do appreciate all feedback, as I want to make the experience as user-friendly as possible.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ana,

    They definitely mean that I can come across as a smug, holier-than-thou asshole sometimes. It’s practically Sheldon’s defining trait along with his massive intelligence and general lack of awareness of social norms.

    Sheldon is a fictional character, though. Mapping real people on fictional characters often requires quite a bit of…sanding around the edges? Fitting a square block into a round hole? There’s not a perfect match there, it requires a lot of finessing, or else I would have no friends :P

    Everyone is an asshole sometimes, though. The key part is trying to understand and forgive others.

    @Hope,

    Saving lives sounds pretty exciting! What is your husband doing right now? The last thing I vaguely remember you saying was that your husband was having some difficulties with his boss and it was stressing him out?

    Hopefully he can keep his eyes on the positive. Right now our work is hectic with accounting close processes. And while I can theoretically understand the important social role behind managing the recievable accounts of a major healthcare company, most of it feels like banging a head against a wall :(

  • Escoffier

    Liz, Lennon was–despite his looks–a tippy-top apex alpha who could have had whoever he wanted, by the dozen. It was considered very odd at the time that he chose her and was faithful to her. Paul made some backhanded compliment where he said something like “Good for them, he really loves her despite how ugly she is.” Obviously that is not an exact quote and factor in that Paul REALLY hated her … still, the sentiment was common.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think John Lennon was devastatingly handsome circa 1964. During his Yoko phase, not so much.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    A female Canadian economics professor sets her sights on the SMP and has some interesting things to say (HUS readers will be familiar):

    “…As you are already aware, female students started to outnumber male students on college campuses at the end of the 1980s. This trend toward higher university enrollment of women, at all levels, has shown now signs of diminishing in the near future…

    “Since we have already talked about the role this gender imbalance has had on sexual behavior on college campuses—increasing promiscuity and decreasing traditional dating—I thought we might talk about how this imbalance will affects a different group of women: those who have no education beyond high school.

    “…as we have seen, educated women are not limiting their search to men who are older (and educated)…with the number of educated women marrying younger, less-educated men on the rise, young women who did not go to college are now competing on the same marriage market as older, better-educated women…

    “Women outnumbering men in higher education programs will make it increasingly difficult for less-educated women to compete on the marriage market and force them to either choose between setting a reservation value for a mate at a low level (i.e., entering a low-quality marriage) or remaining single. With the marriage rates of these women already in decline, it seems that many are remaining single rather than entering less-than-satisfying marriages—even if that means they are raising children on their own.

    “As we have seen, women who have little reason to believe that they will eventually marry are more likely to engage in riskier sexual behavior…

    “…But while educated women are becoming liberated to marry whomever they please, those same forces will eventually disenfranchise less-educated women from the marriage market and, potentially, push more children into poverty.

    “One of the solutions is, of course, to allow wealthy men to take more than one wife—that is, to institutionalize polygamy. …The suggestion that polygamy is the solution to growing female educational inequality is counter-intuitive. But the claim that female inequality encourages monogamy depends on the assumption that educated women are a relatively scarce resource, which is no longer true. That suggests that, over time, having multiple wives will become ‘affordable’ for wealthy men.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Marina Adshade is a reader of HUS! We’ve corresponded in the past. It might behoove us to keep in mind that she is a feminist, through and through.

      Does she give a source for her claim that the lopsided college enrollment is diminishing? I haven’t heard that claim anywhere else.

      Interestingly, she weighed in on the Susan Patton (Princeton mom) kerfuffle a while back at the WSJ. (BTW, Simon and Schuster just gave Patton a book deal. Title = Smarten Up!)

      For example, the gender imbalance has led many educated women to marry much younger men. These men are game because they prefer to have a wife who is older and more economically successful over a wife who is younger and less able to provide financial stability. The women, in turn, get a young, virile spouse.

      Is anyone else surprised by this? A trend toward younger men eagerly marrying older, high earning women? If it’s true, there goes a stake through the heart of yet another manosphere trope.

      At a time when women outrank men in education and income, it no longer makes economic sense for a woman to marry up in terms of education. The most economically productive marriages for professional women are ones in which husbands are freer to care for the needs of the family while the women focus on their lucrative careers.

      …In her letter to Princeton women, Ms. Patton acknowledges that these young women could delay marriage and “choose to marry a man who has other things to recommend him besides a soaring intellect.” On this point, she is right. In fact, economic theory predicts that this is exactly the decision that many Princeton women will make—not because they have to but because they can.

      As you can see, Adshade is delighted with increased power for women – at least, highly educated women.

  • Anacaona

    Lennon was the original hipster.
    Another reason why women prefer hipsters to gym rats (yes they do shut up and accept it) is that a hipster will give a chance to a not so hot girl based on other attributes like their artistic nature or intelligence. As shown here manosphere guys are willing to sacrifice smarts and accomplishments for the sake of a having a pleasant hottie to bang regularly.
    So yeah I’m sure Lennon had a lot of women dreaming about him but also because he looked like the guy that won’t next you if you don’t put out on cue, that also counts in the SMV for most women, specially low hypergamy ones, YMMV.

    @BB
    Very good finding. I do wonder if we will end up with a ‘lost girls’ phenomenon with women having to compete even more with sex, looks and income in order to have any chance to be a wife but also being always in the risk to get kicked out for any transgressions. I do think that not only wealthy men will be able to benefit from that if the standards for middle class keep raising then having three incomes in a household instead of two might be more practical and that will also contribute to this plural marriage phenomenon.
    It will be interesting to see who would start with this, any guess?

  • Angelguy

    “In this case she wasn’t. It was a short fling for sexual satisfaction only. She told her husband that she chose to be with him. It was he who chose to divorce, destroy the family and damage his daughters but not forgiving and loving again, and then marrying the woman he had a fling with to “get back” at his wife. Who ended up being a crazy alcohol addicts who made his childrens lives a living hell.

    Disgusting.”

    @ Jayn

    I think something like that drives a person to do insane and damaging things.
    I’m not sayind what he did was right, but completely expecting someone to stay in a marriage that is shattered, is something I find hard to fathom.

    It is disgusting how his children were affected, but treating a short fling like it was nothing seems to erode the meaning of commitment in a marriage.

    Two wrongs don’t make right.

  • Angelguy

    [\QUOTE]”That suggests that, over time, having multiple wives will become ‘affordable’ for wealthy men.”[/QHOTE]

    I really doubt that will occur in the US. We are not the Middle East.

  • JP

    “One of the solutions is, of course, to allow wealthy men to take more than one wife—that is, to institutionalize polygamy. …The suggestion that polygamy is the solution to growing female educational inequality is counter-intuitive. But the claim that female inequality encourages monogamy depends on the assumption that educated women are a relatively scarce resource, which is no longer true. That suggests that, over time, having multiple wives will become ‘affordable’ for wealthy men.”

    It’s not counter-intuitive,rather it’s counterproductive.

    Because it’s fun to vote young men off the island.

    And these women are going to be larded up with debt in a stagnant economy because everybody’s looking at the rear view mirror to project into the future.

    Which will decrease the fertility rate.

    This is actually pretty funny.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    All things are impossible until they happen.
    Then they are inevitable.

    Anyways, some processes take centuries to occur and consolidate, and have significant set-backs or apparent reversals. The French Revolution over-extended itself and got beaten back, suppressed by a Metternich who rightly feared nationalisam and liberalism, but he was in office until 1848, which accomplished nothing, and it was not until the 1990s that nationalist sentiments tore Yugoslavia apart.

  • JP

    I think that the primary problem with polygamy is the nature of the bond between the man and the various wives.

    We don’t even have the ability to really categorize the nature of certain interpersonal bonds.

    However, I don’t think that the primary man-woman-child relationship can be eliminated from human nature because it is an inherent part of human nature.

    It’s group dynamics and psychology, so I doubt we have the tools to even know what is going on in polygamous systems.

  • Anacaona

    It’s group dynamics and psychology, so I doubt we have the tools to even know what is going on in polygamous systems.
    We do know what happens the harem has existed for thousands of years. Is full of jealousy, child abuse, political intrigue and backstabbing. Not pretty but maybe now that women would be earning their own money it might be less toxic? I doubt it though. A herd of wives is still a herd and I couldn’t imagine anything worst than signing up for a lifetime in a herd or worst being born into one. *shudder*

  • Gin Martini

    BB, googled a bit, that’s from “Dollars and Sex” (maybe I missed this). A brief skim through Google books shows a man with one dollar sign, and an unhappy face, and no mate, while theman with $$$ has a shit-eating grin (okay, I made that up) and multiple women.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    GM, yes, that’s the book I got it from. It has some analysis that will be of general interest to HUS readers.

    The author notes that it is not that men want sex more than women do, it is that men want to, or at least will, have sex with strangers, and women generally do not find this as appealing and have to be compensated for it.

    Re: hook-up culture on campus…

    “The outnumbering of women to men on university campuses not only makes it difficult for women to find partners from a simple numerical perspective (fewer men means each individual woman has a lower probability of finding an available man), but it is also changing the nature of male-female relationships as men have acquired greater sex-market power…

    “…Given this evidence, you won’t be surprised to hear that casual sex is also more frequent when women outnumber men on campus…single women are more sexually active when men are relatively scarce than they are when men are relatively abundant…Traditional dating is far less common when fewer men are available. This is really surprising, of course, as there are simply fewer men to date, but the data suggests that there is far less traditional dating than the mere shortage of men would suggest.

    “…This evidence supports the idea that when women are abundant, there is far less traditional dating and far more ‘hooking up.’ …a number of women who (the authors of a book) interviewed were participating in sex acts they disliked or were having sex more often than would have been their choice. This says to me that a woman’s ability to bargain with her sexual partner over both the timing and nature of sex acts has been eroded on university campuses in the face of increased competition for men among relatively abundant women…”

    She also talks about “sexy professors in a hormonally charged classroom”, binge drinking and the effects of drinking age laws on binge drinking (increases the problem), how men make different decisions when sexually aroused (“63% of masturbating participants would encourage their date to drink in the hope that it would increase the chance that he would get to have sex with her compared to 46% of the nonaroused. 26% of the aroused participants said that they would be willing to slip her a drug ((!!))”), and so on.

    “…Parents who worry that promiscuity will impose a high cost in the long run on their college-aged children would be well advised to look for schools in which male students outnumber female students. The argument seems counter-intuitive to those parents whose daughters are college bound, but when seen within the economic environment, it makes sense to avoid putting your daughter in a position in which she needs to compete with many other women on the market for college dates… Likewise, colleges that worry about the cost of student promiscuity might consider if they are giving preferential admission to female applicants…”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Adshade’s description of the campus scene is right on target. There is a lot of predatory behavior that accompanies alcohol consumption, but I’m a bit surprised to hear that the numbers of men deliberately trying to inebriate or even drug women are so high.

      Parents who worry that promiscuity will impose a high cost in the long run on their college-aged children would be well advised to look for schools in which male students outnumber female students.

      Are there any?

      The most selective mid-size and large schools maintain a 50/50 ratio. Small, elite liberal arts colleges have more difficulty, and can go as high as 65% female.

      I’d have to think that a school with more men would be either religious or lower in quality.

      I also wonder if she’s writing about the U.S. or Canada?

  • Gin Martini

    All familiar stuff. As usual, it’s all about what the women want, right? Do the men have any wants or needs, or they just “relationship objects”? Do all men have equal “power” or are they all lumped together? I realize you are quoting and maybe the author does treat men humanely and having their own needs, both the winners and the dregs. One could hope.

    Another question, if the causal sex people all stick together in a closed system (as Susan says), then how does increased pressure for the remaining men result in more casual sex? It sounds contradictory to me. (I don’t subscribe to this, I believe the promiscuous folks step outside their bounds often enough, for some rather wild N mismatches.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Another question, if the causal sex people all stick together in a closed system (as Susan says), then how does increased pressure for the remaining men result in more casual sex?

      Because 20% of the women and 20% of the men is a group with more women than men.

      Also, I’ve never described it as a closed system. The boundaries are not rigid, but social groupings do tend to be rather fixed in college. The vast majority of high N men are athletes, frat members, or gay. The vast majority of high N women are groupies of the first two, and sex-poz feminist types.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Gin, the author looks more at the overall market conditions and their incentives. She doesn’t really segregate according to sociosexuality; just cites some studies supporting her basic case that men, in general, prefer sexual variety more than women do, and that they will have sex with women that they are attracted to with little other information being necessary. So if men on campus have more market power due to scarcity dynamics, this preference set will be imposed in the whole system and overall promiscuity levels will rise.

    Re: differential benefits. She does indicate that men will not benefit from all of this fuck-party largesse equally, and quotes a warning from George Bernard Shaw:

    “Any marriage system which condemns a majority of the population to celibacy will be violently wrecked on the pretext that it outrages morality. Polygamy, when tried under modern market conditions…is wrecked by the revolt of the mass men who are condemned to celibacy by it…”

    “Economist Nils-Peter Lagerlof developed a model that build on the idea that an authoritarian ruler will implement laws that forbid polygamy, even at the expense of limiting himself to just one wife, if it pacifies the masses…”

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, that’s really cool. Adshade said that the gender imbalance shows no sign of diminishing; I probably had a typo in there when I quoted her. My last faculty e-mail on the subject suggested that 65/35 may be the norm within 10 years.

    The book seems to be a mix of a quasi-triumphalist tract for hypogamy and simultaneously a warning that the non-college-educated women could face increasingly dire mating conditions. So the “power” that educated women apparently will have is the freedom to marry less-educated, less economically-successful men and then provide for them financially; I’m not sure how much of that is by choice and how is by necessity because there just aren’t enough “Plan A” guys to go around at this point.

    She seems to indicate that promiscuous + hot guys may enjoy the SMP to no end, but this delight may come at a significant cost to other men.

    Adshade does seem particularly sympathetic to female students:

    “The problem she now faces is that on her campus there are far more women than men. That fact is not only making it hard for her to find a man; it is making it impossible to find one who is willing to enter a relationship with a woman who is cautious about having sex. If she meets a man tonight, for example, she knows that not having sex with him in the first few hours after they meet will likely rule out any possibility that he will want to date her in the future. After all, he has to assume little of the risk of a casual sex experience and, because the market for single men is so competitive on her campus, there are other women who are willing to take the risk…”

    The Adshade scenario seems to be that the young woman will just suffer through this gauntlet in college, but post-college her mating horizon will open up and she will be able to use online dating, Facebook, etc. to meet a variety of men, including non-college-educated ones. So she may use her educational/economic power in that pool to entice a non-college guy who is otherwise “hotter” than she would have been able to get in the college-educated pool. She extracts this man from the pool with an offer of a more affluent lifestyle, older and more experienced woman, etc. The problem is that this then leaves the non-college-educated woman competing with these aggressive career types in her own mating pool, and the non-college woman responds with more aggressive casual sex offers, highly diminished expectations of what men will do for her, and so on.

    It’s almost as if the educated woman’s response to gender imbalance is to fish for semi-gigolos in a hypogamous pond, which may work fine for her but it sort of screws the less-educated woman.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    This ain’t a scene, it’s an arms race :)

  • Pip

    “Is an older woman supposed to be judged *solely* on the basis of her age, such that her wealth is the only explanation for the marriage with Kutcher? How retrograde and misogynist.” (and much more)

    TL/DR. I don’t really follow you. All I said was none of my college-educated 27-37 y.o. female friends are with men 15 years or more their senior.

    “Your comment implies that an older man or older woman is using accomplishment to influence affection. Any husband who had a bad year will note, “And this is news?””

    All I said was none of my college-educated 27-37 y.o. female friends are with men 15 years or more their senior.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Thank you very much for your offer of help. It’s good to know you’re available if I need you!

      So far, I’ve been able to get what I need by digging around.

      It’s laughable, really, that a technological fuckwit like myself would even attempt a site redesign. This wasn’t exactly on my bucket list, haha, but it is gratifying just the same.

      Back in the day I was a COBOL programmer, hard to believe.

  • JP

    “We do know what happens the harem has existed for thousands of years. Is full of jealousy, child abuse, political intrigue and backstabbing.”

    Oh, goody.

    Empirical evidence that it encourages the Dark Feminine.

  • JP

    “At a time when women outrank men in education and income, it no longer makes economic sense for a woman to marry up in terms of education. The most economically productive marriages for professional women are ones in which husbands are freer to care for the needs of the family while the women focus on their lucrative careers.”

    Do women also outrank men in debt?

    I no longer makes economic sense for a woman to marry a debt addled lawyer, that’s for sure.

    Is anyone really paying any attention to what’s *actually* happening in the *actual* global financial hypereconomy?

    “Gen Xers were also plagued by significantly higher debt levels, including mortgages, auto loans, credit card and student loan debt — much of which was accumulated in the years leading up to the recession. In 2010, Gen X had a median debt level of more than $80,000, while younger Baby Boomers carried about $60,000 and older Boomers had less than $40,000.”

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/16/retirement/retirement-saving/index.html

  • JP

    “At a time when women outrank men in education and income, it no longer makes economic sense for a woman to marry up in terms of education. The most economically productive marriages for professional women are ones in which husbands are freer to care for the needs of the family while the women focus on their lucrative careers.”

    I’m starting to think that the number of these magical “lucrative careers” is in decline.

    Especially on The Street.

    In addition, if I’m right, the relative political power of The Street has been in decline since 2008 (peak finance). Right now, the decline in political power isn’t really hurting Goldman Sachs and friends, but if they fall below the level they need to maintain their protected status during a major recession/financial crisis, then The Street is going to be sliced and diced by the politicos.

    Cronyism and general moral turpitude doesn’t seem bother Washington D.C., but failure certainly makes them angry.

  • Anacaona

    Empirical evidence that it encourages the Dark Feminine.
    Empirical evidence that humans have a hard time sharing. Even NASA filters for certain personality types when choosing people that is going to spent time in a limited space with limited resources and rights and duties to share. When the selection is done randomly and you add sex and children to the mix of course there is problem to come. Only idiots expect this go smoothly or consider it better than old plain monogamy, YMMV.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/ Morpheus

    Is anyone else surprised by this? A trend toward younger men eagerly marrying older, high earning women? If it’s true, there goes a stake through the heart of yet another manosphere trope.

    Not at all. In a societal system, where more and more women have higher levels of economic power and make up a larger percentage of “high earners” it isn’t surprising one bit that some men would “flip the script” so to speak and start to select for long-term mating based at least partially on resource provisioning ability. High-earning women obviously would be “attractive” from a certain POV.

    What would be interesting to know is what is the rate of male marital infidelity in these relationships. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they are sky high and orders of magnitude higher. I’m sure there are guys who would be inclined to marry older and high earning and then have sex with younger and hotter on the side. Obviously, immoral, but for the guy lacking ethics it enables the option of having your cake and eating it too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m sure there are guys who would be inclined to marry older and high earning and then have sex with younger and hotter on the side. Obviously, immoral, but for the guy lacking ethics it enables the option of having your cake and eating it too.

      I’m reluctant to accept that such a large percentage of males is that unethical. They’d have to go the full-on gigolo route – pretending sexual attraction and love while cheating all the while. If this is a significant trend, that would mean a very high incidence of cads in the population.

  • JimBeam

    t

  • Valentin

    Just wanna say: I like the new comment functions. But I still recommend you make the comment section about 50% wider than it is now.

  • mr. wavevector

    Susan,

    Another big hookup article in the NYTimes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @mr. wavevector

      Thanks for throwing that red meat my way. :)

      Now that I’ve got the new site up and running, I can go back to stirring up trouble with my posts. :)

  • mr. wavevector

    Now, she said, she and her best friend had changed their romantic goals, from finding boyfriends to finding “hookup buddies,” which she described as “a guy that we don’t actually really like his personality, but we think is really attractive and hot and good in bed.”

    Women said universally that hookups could not exist without alcohol, because they were for the most part too uncomfortable to pair off with men they did not know well without being drunk. One girl, explaining why her encounters freshman and sophomore year often ended with fellatio, said that usually by the time she got back to a guy’s room, she was starting to sober up and didn’t want to be there anymore, and giving the guy oral sex was an easy way to wrap things up and leave.

  • mr. wavevector

    For example, the gender imbalance has led many educated women to marry much younger men. These men are game because they prefer to have a wife who is older and more economically successful over a wife who is younger and less able to provide financial stability. The women, in turn, get a young, virile spouse.

    Is anyone else surprised by this? A trend toward younger men eagerly marrying older, high earning women? If it’s true, there goes a stake through the heart of yet another manosphere trope.

    Notice the complete lack of evidence provided for these claims by Ashdade. I doubt it’s true in any statistically significant way. One can always find plenty of anecdotes and fake trends for non-typical behavior – there have always been younger men marrying older wealthier women. I’m writing this off as a feminist wet dream until I see some supporting data.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Notice the complete lack of evidence provided for these claims by Ashdade. I doubt it’s true in any statistically significant way. One can always find plenty of anecdotes and fake trends for non-typical behavior – there have always been younger men marrying older wealthier women. I’m writing this off as a feminist wet dream until I see some supporting data.

      I’m inclined to agree. In fact, there’s more than a little of that in the NYX article. Taylor writes about “A” as if she is typical. She suggests this feedback was consistent across 60 interviews. Yet her caveat near the end acknowledges that 25% of college students graduate virgins and 30% have never had a single hookup – not even a kiss. Sure enough, “A” is a proud feminist – something that about 18% of college women identify as.

      Pareto Principle strikes again!

      By featuring promiscuous alpha females like A, a feminist journalist normalizes highly promiscuous and agentic behavior as a symbol of women’s increasing economic power.

      I wonder how these feminists will feel if their mission succeeds, and men become thoroughly dispensable.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, awesome job with the site revamp! Clearly you are not as tech unsavvy as you say! :)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’m reluctant to accept that such a large percentage of males is that unethical. They’d have to go the full-on gigolo route – pretending sexual attraction and love while cheating all the while. If this is a significant trend, that would mean a very high incidence of cads in the population.”

    They are not.
    There are (likely) not that many men marrying older women.

    Reason. I was looking over some marriage stats (now here is the problem, I can’t remember if it was for Canada or South Korea) and I remember seeing that there were a whopping……6 marriages in 2012 where the woman was 10 or more years older.

    I think that might be Korea however. I will check to find out for you.

    As anecdata. Do not know anyone where woman is more than a year older than the husband (my mother is 6 months older than my father) other than two divorced couples.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I’d have to think that a school with more men would be either religious or lower in quality. ”

    Wow, misandrous much?

    Or perhaps, you know, its just a school where people don’t work at Starbucks after graduating. Like an engineering uni.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I was not including STEM schools in that assessment because I don’t think that’s what Adshade was saying. It seems like a stretch to imagine parents choosing not only their kid’s college, but also their aptitudes.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: age differences. My guess is that we are only talking about a few years. I think that the younger women in the scenario aren’t necessarily much younger, they are just non-college-educated. …and they may be less physically attractive if we assume that obesity rates among the non-college-educated pop are greater than in the college pop (I am not sure if this is the case, but I have heard it cited).

    So a 26-year-old female college grad may be both more attractive than her 23-year-old non-college-educated competitor AND able to entice the 23-year-old non-college guy by promising to keep him in Playstations, bourbon, and UFC pay-per-views while he chills out on the couch for a few years, watches streaming internet porn while the wife is at work, and finds himself.

    If the age gap is really large re: young guy and older woman, then of course we would anticipate some chronic infidelity problems. I think it’s now been established that the stereotypical male mid-life crisis is triggered when his partner enters menopause—young guys with menopausal women were suffering “early midlife crisis”, older guys with highly fertile women were avoiding crisis effects.

    From one article:

    “Wife’s menopause trigger for men’s mid life crisis, researchers say”

    by Evellne Jenkin

    “A man’s midlife crisis has more to do with his wife’s age than his own, researchers have found.

    “Researchers have discovered that the trigger for the proverbial male midlife crisis may not be a man’s age at all, but a reaction to his wife’s imminent menopause.

    “Writing in the journal Psychology Today, doctors Alan S. Miller and Satoshi Kanazawa say a man’s midlife crisis is often jolted into being when his wife nears the end of her reproductive life and his evolutionary need to attract younger women is renewed.

    “Therefore a 50-year-old man married to a 25-year-old woman would not experience a midlife crisis, but if the situation was reversed, he would—in the same way that a 50-year-old man married to a 50-year-old woman would.

    “‘When he buys a shiny-red sports car, he’s not trying to regain his youth; he’s trying to attract young women to replace his menopausal wife by trumpeting his flash and cash,'” the researchers write.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Re: older women.
    My mother is 6 years older than my father, though they are together largely because my father knocked up Mother Dearest.

    My uncle is 12 years the junior of his wife, IIRC. He is happy enough. However, in high school, he was a sweet Beta guy ignored by all the girls and thought he would never find love. She was a British immigrant who got into a car crash and Uncle pulled her out of the fire.

    They married 6 weeks later, IIRC, and my grandfather was apparently furious, to the point of nearly disowning his son.

    She won his heart by traditional girl game, and by going after a guy who didn’t really have a lot of options (or at least didn’t perceive himself as having options). Plus he literally pulled her out of a burning car. Situational Alpha, perhaps, but that’s been enough to carry them for several decades.

    Individually?

    Success for both of them.

    Collectively?
    If we have too many “success” stories like this, the Republic is dead in a generation.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Reiteration, for emphasis:
    If we have too many “success” stories like this, the Republic is dead in a generation.
    One thing that strikes me when reading Kissinger’s Diplomacy is that none of the leaders seem to realize how incredibly vulnerable systems are and how easily they break down.

    Ex: The Cold War is often perceived as a coalition of two sides that emerged rather quickly after the Second World War ended. However, there was quite a lot of “permeability” and vacillation. West Germany was tempted to leave NATO and reunify as a neutral power. Hungary almost left the Warsaw Pact.

    France, of course, did leave NATO command in 1966, after French-American differences over numerous issues. Quite frankly, I do not blame them, as American leaders were constantly trying to make Europeans subordinate to American interests and were not standing up for European interests.

    In particular, during the Berlin Crisis, Eisenhower was entirely willing to let Berlin fall into the Soviet sphere of influence because he didn’t want to risk war, which almost certainly would have meant the death of NATO and the USSR’s ultimate victory in the Cold War. It was actually the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was a fiasco for the USSR, that ended the Berlin Crisis, and allowed NATO to BARELY hold together.

    Of course, the first President to identify this and put maximum pressure on the USSR was Reagan, and the Soviets effectively surrendered within a few years.

  • Abbot

    “We can’t fuck our way to freedom’”

    Finally, some wisdom from a feminist.

    http://www.xojane.com/issues/im-a-sex-negative-feminist

    .

  • Richard Aubrey

    I know HUS focuses on college because that’s where, it is presumed, the most pressure is for hooking up and because hyper/hypo gamy can be most easily measured. You’re in college or you’re not, you graduated or you didn’t. And that’s where the concentration of horny young people is highest.
    However, given that high schools are doing a lousy job preparing even high-ranking grads for the simplest college majors, the idea that the kind of degree you can get with that background means something has to be measured.
    What we have is a social selection: Your family thinks college is important and has the resources to get you there–in terms of making you organize your life, in money even if you’re going to be in debt, in raising you to be able to sit at a desk from age five to age twenty-five without going but a smidge nuts, etc.
    It only means a floor in IQ. And a dropping one.
    Accumulated classroom seat time doesn’t prove much. Something else has to prove whatever it is. Like getting a good job, making good money, living a life with minimal self-destructive tendencies.
    IOW, a floor in pretty much everything. Which is not without value, but most of those things could be determined upon meeting somebody the second time, the first time apparently being given over to drunken fellatio.
    Is a woman with a degree in English, a modest gradepoint and little campus activity really practicing hypogamy if she marries a guy making good money in, say, the Bakken fields with management interest in promoting him, even if he doesn’t have a degree? Or a bunch of tech courses but not a semi/near/almost/pretensions-to-Ivy degree?

    I coached youth soccer 20-25 years ago. One year I had a team of girls 12-13 years old. Talking to one who played cello in a traveling orchestra. I asked what it was like playing the great halls of Europe. She allowed that they’d played there,but the great halls were mostly empty. She was going to be a good-looking woman and could kick a soccer ball through a Redi-Mix truck. Later an NHS classmate of my kids.
    And she went out to this SMP.
    Who do I punch?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      Is a woman with a degree in English, a modest gradepoint and little campus activity really practicing hypogamy if she marries a guy making good money in, say, the Bakken fields with management interest in promoting him, even if he doesn’t have a degree?

      Good question – I have wondered whether this describes a significant portion of hypogamous marriages, which now outnumber hypergamous ones.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Women want attractive men and Susan is telling them to eliminate men who do not introspect.

    That’s far different from saying that women view introspection as a unique attractive trait. Some might, my guess is that most don’t.

    This is a website for women, not men, and the advice for men is the same: improve your short-term attraction triggers.

  • Gin Martini

    From the NYT article: “Her unease was common among students from relatively modest backgrounds … They found that the women from wealthier backgrounds were much more likely to hook up, more interested in postponing adult responsibilities and warier of serious romantic commitment than their less-affluent classmates. The women from less-privileged backgrounds looked at their classmates who got drunk and hooked up as immature.”

    Now I understand the HUS crowd more. Rich people are funny.

    Forums tell

  • Abbot

    From that NYT pro-feminist polemic –

    “I’m going to have plenty of time to focus on my husband and kids later”

    Why is that men are NEVER asked if they will be willing “later” to be there with catcher’s mitts on?

    .

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. How do you tell if a man introspects? (is that a real verb?)
    That he lives his life one way or another might be explained by invisible introspection, but the introspection is invisible.
    How do you see real introspection going on, or know somehow that it’s happening?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @richard

      For me at least, distinguishing between those who are self-aware and those who aren’t is relatively straightforward. Living an examined life means being aware of your place in the larger world, your effect on others, having the motivation to develop and grow, and caring deeply about all of these. Good character is not possible without introspection, IMO, and bad character is at least highly unlikely with it.

  • Abbot

    A great comment from that NYT article –

    “campus men today must be overjoyed that young women now believe that degrading themselves to service frat-brothers is a proclamation of their feminist credentials”

    Yep introspective indeed. Way to go ladies.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    Very interesting NY Times article about what women do when they actively are not looking for a relationship.

    The part where some try to find guys that are really hot but have personalities that they don’t like so they won’t emotionally bond to them was quite fascinating.

    And the 19 y/o who didn’t feel allowed to find her life partner yet.

    A friend of hers, who attended a nearby college and did have a serious boyfriend, said that she felt as if she were breaking a social taboo. “Am I allowed to find the person that I want to spend the rest of my life with when I’m 19?” she said. “I don’t really know. It feels like I’m not.”

    Well, what if he is and she just breaks up because she didn’t feel allowed and never finds such a great match again?

    Lots of interesting stuff in that article.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    I personally identify as a sex-positive feminist for these reasons. It’s like a kind of border crossing where a stern female at the gate asks you for your papers. If you credibly claim that you are a sex-positive feminist and totally against the hypocritical double standards on sexuality that have been used by patriarchal oppressors, etc., etc., you are usually let in.

    “Agree & amplify” taken to its logical, sociopolitical conclusion, I guess.

    The older 2nd Wavers are growing increasingly suspicious because they gauge the success or failure of any feminist project in adversarial, zero-sum terms—i.e., if men seem to be enjoying it, it can’t be good. But I think they have totally lost control of the movement at this point and few female undergrads outside of sociology/gender studies majors can even tell you the names of five prominent feminists.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    And what kind of market signals is that kind of behavior sending out to men?

  • Abbot

    “I wonder how these feminists will feel if their mission succeeds, and men become thoroughly dispensable”

    or merely unavailable…to them

    .

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: STEM. It would be very interesting to hear a female insider’s account of campus dating at CalTech or MIT!

  • Escoffier

    “It would be very interesting to hear a female insider’s account of campus dating at CalTech or MIT”

    I can provide one second hand but it is a couple of decades out of date.

  • Abbot

    What is the likelihood of an introspective man knowingly marrying a promiscuous woman?

    .

  • Fish

    Re: Good school male weighted
    Purdue 57% male
    http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/purdue-university-west-lafayette-1825

    Why in the holy hell am I attending this sausage-fest? Well, I guess it is a good school. . .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why in the holy hell am I attending this sausage-fest? Well, I guess it is a good school. . .

      LOL!

  • Vitor

    Very interesting “Sex on Campus” article. The messages I get from this article.

    1. It seems to be pretty much in line with what Susan has been writing about in this site.

    2. What (at least some of) the girls I had romantic marry and be happy forever dreams with have been doing (while sometimes also rejecting my approaches or discounting me as being boring, needy, etc.):

    “Sometimes you are out, and there’s a guy you really are attracted to, and you kind of want to go back home with him, but you kind of have that underlying, ‘I can’t, because I can’t just lose my V-card to some random guy.’ ”

    Now, she said, she and her best friend had changed their romantic goals, from finding boyfriends to finding “hookup buddies,” which she described as “a guy that we don’t actually really like his personality, but we think is really attractive and hot and good in bed.”

    One girl, explaining why her encounters freshman and sophomore year often ended with fellatio, said that usually by the time she got back to a guy’s room, she was starting to sober up and didn’t want to be there anymore, and giving the guy oral sex was an easy way to wrap things up and leave.

    3. There is still hope and also girls who know what they want:

    For all the focus on hookups, campuses are not sexual free-for-alls, at Penn or elsewhere. At colleges nationally, by senior year, 4 in 10 students are either virgins or have had intercourse with only one person, according to the Online College Social Life Survey. Nearly 3 in 10 said that they had never had a hookup in college. Meanwhile, 20 percent of women and a quarter of men said they had hooked up with 10 or more people.

    She would go along with her friends to fraternity parties, but she refused to dance with strangers or to kiss anyone.

    “Sharing that side of myself with a stranger just seems very strange to me,” she said in September. “I mean, if you break it down, it’s a very strange thing to do.”

    She added, “Nothing is stopping me from rebelling. I just didn’t rebel.”

    By the start of her junior year, Mercedes had still never kissed anyone. Then in the fall, she found herself often getting into late-night conversations with a boy in her dorm. They talked about their studies, their families, politics. One weekend he invited her to a poetry slam off campus. The next night, they shyly confessed that they liked each other and had their first kiss.

    Interviewed again in the spring, she said things were proceeding slowly but steadily. The two never had to hook up. They were just dating, getting to know each other in the old-fashioned way.

    Physically, they had not gone further than making out, Mercedes said, and she thought she might want to wait to have sex until marriage. “It’s not like I’m doing it because of my reputation,” she said. “It’s not because a religion tells me to wait. I think of it more as, this is the way I want to emotionally connect to someone, and I think that only a person who deserves me to be emotionally attached to them should have that opportunity to see me in that way.”

    As a teenager, Catherine had thought she would wait to get married until her late 20s or early 30s. But her college experiences had made her think that she would rather marry young than throw away a good relationship because it wasn’t the right time.

    That might mean having to pass up certain career opportunities, for geographic reasons. But Catherine thought that her peers underestimated how hard it was to find the right person to be with — as hard, perhaps, as finding the right job.

    “People kind of discount” how “difficult it is to find someone that you even remotely like, let alone really fall for,” she said. “And losing that can be just as impractical and harmful to yourself, if not more so, than missing out on a job or something like that. What else do you really have at the end of your life?”

  • JP

    “Living an examined life means being aware of your place in the larger world,”

    Good luck with trying to figure this one out.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan.
    If you and I met at a party, my statement beginning with “I think…” would end with something like, “I really like that cheddar dip.”
    You wouldn’t know what I think about anything at all. You would probably get my attitude from one or another anecdote, but those come out as appropriate. Context, somebody else’s lead-in.
    But if you suggest that a good guy can’t be a good guy without introspection, then any good guy is introspective.
    Which leaves the question of whether, if he’s a good guy, we need to worry about the introspection question.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard

      If you and I met at a party, my statement beginning with “I think…” would end with something like, “I really like that cheddar dip.”

      I’m not expecting women to use the introspection filter at first meeting! Of course that is not possible. In fact, if a guy is telling me all about his place in the world the night we meet, I’m going to be taken aback – too soon!

      This is meant for that period of time when you’re dating or getting to know someone, and you’re assessing compatiblity.

      But if you suggest that a good guy can’t be a good guy without introspection, then any good guy is introspective.
      Which leaves the question of whether, if he’s a good guy, we need to worry about the introspection question.

      Exactly the problem. It’s easier to figure out if a guy is introspective than if he is good. Introspection is one of the cues to goodness.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Fish,

    Interestingly, my GF’s brother attended Purdue and throughout his 4 years there dated a girl long-distance. After they broke up, he started dating another girl, who is still attending university there, and makes frequent trips.
    The most I can get out of him is that he was in charge of an engineering group because he was the only person in the group who could speak English :P

    Vitor,
    There does appear to be a large proportion of women who have not ridden the carousel. Thankfully, it is extremely easy to identify such girls! Facebook is a treasure trove because girls put up just damn near everything.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The most I can get out of him is that he was in charge of an engineering group because he was the only person in the group who could speak English :P

      When my brother went for his doctorate in physics, he waited to find out whether he would be tracked for theoretical or applied. Everyone wanted theoretical, naturally. He got applied, but when they told him, they said, “You’re the best white guy, if that’s any consolation.” :-/

  • Emily

    >>. “That might mean having to pass up certain career opportunities, for geographic reasons. But Catherine thought that her peers underestimated how hard it was to find the right person to be with — as hard, perhaps, as finding the right job.
    People kind of discount” how “difficult it is to find someone that you even remotely like, let alone really fall for,” she said. “And losing that can be just as impractical and harmful to yourself, if not more so, than missing out on a job or something like that. What else do you really have at the end of your life?”
    ——
    Agreed.

  • Fish

    @Beta Guy
    Very heavily male, very heavily foreign. However, I will say, everyone is really super nice and the culture is very accepting.

    I was mostly joking about the sausage fest part, I am really going there to accomplish some life-goals, not raise my N (although thats probably bound to happen) and hit on undergrads. . .

    With that having been said, it was definitely a distant last of the campuses I visited in terms of female “talent”

  • J

    @BB

    Thanks for your response re why men don’t mind being objectified. It made sense.

    I think it’s now been established that the stereotypical male mid-life crisis is triggered when his partner enters menopause—young guys with menopausal women were suffering “early midlife crisis”, older guys with highly fertile women were avoiding crisis effects.

    Wow! This surprises me. DH seemed to have no reaction at all. I felt sad because a door was closing, but he seemed to stay pretty aloof from the whole thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wow! This surprises me. DH seemed to have no reaction at all. I felt sad because a door was closing, but he seemed to stay pretty aloof from the whole thing.

      Mr. HUS hasn’t had a mid-life crisis either. He’s 59, so I guess it’s not going to happen. I think it’s about mortality and losing one’s youth. It’s not surprising that watching one’s mate age would be a reminder – correlation is not causation.

  • Vitor

    Thankfully, it is extremely easy to identify such girls! Facebook is a treasure trove because girls put up just damn near everything.

    Sure. Sort of “Let me see you Facebook and I tell you who you are.” :-D

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW

    I wonder how these feminists will feel if their mission succeeds, and men become thoroughly dispensable.

    They’ll wonder why they joined a small, disorganized cadre of men who view women as dispensable? Methinks they already have, but haven’t regretted it yet. I do notice the money aspect of this whole mindset… though income may not correlate with N, it has something to do it. You don’t hear women from other SE groups sharing the same sentiments.

    The article sounded very familiar in this sense: practically every college newspaper op-ed I remember reading had a similar POV, whether it was written by a guy or a girl. “Sex is for fun, relationships are too hard or not worth the time and effort. It’s o.k. to use other people as long as it’s consensual.” These women are really no different than all the anonymous “gents” who pimp the hookup scene online, even around here. They just seem better organized.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @MM

      They’ll wonder why they joined a small, disorganized cadre of men who view women as dispensable? Methinks they already have, but haven’t regretted it yet.

      Yes, I’ve been thinking about this – it’s assortative mating, and I think we should applaud it!

      I do notice the money aspect of this whole mindset… though income may not correlate with N, it has something to do it. You don’t hear women from other SE groups sharing the same sentiments

      I would like to explore this more. In some ways it is counterintuitive – since it is the highest educated/highest earners with the lowest divorce rate.

      Also, we tend to assume that N is high in low SES groups who have OOW children, but that isn’t necessarily the case.

      These women are really no different than all the anonymous “gents” who pimp the hookup scene online, even around here. They just seem better organized.

      Yes, there’s a feminist goal here. I’ll be writing more about that when I post on this Monday.

  • Angelguy

    ‘Living an examined life means being aware of your place in the larger world, your effect on others, having the motivation to develop and grow, and caring deeply about all of these. Good character is not possible without introspection, IMO, and bad character is at least highly unlikely with it.”

    @Susan

    I think it is good to look inward, examine ones life and build on improving ones self. The thing is, not everyone is going to recognize what is good or bad for someone.

    There are many women that have left their “Man” due to them looking inward, believing them to be self indulgent. Sometimes when one looks into themselves, what they find might not be in line with what their SO wants.

    Good character and introspection is not something you share with someone else. Often, it is something that one develops alone. It takes time and work, and some might not have the patience for it.

    The most difficult part of introspection is when people you love, leave you during the process. They don’t see the potential and often times discourage you. You have let them go, because despite the benefits of the relationship, they won’t fulfill what you really need.

    I try to find out what a woman’s goals in life are before I consider them for a relationship. A person’s goals and lifestyle can tell me more about them in 20 minutes, than if I were to go on a few dates. It saves me a lot of wasted time and heartbreak.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Angelguy

      I try to find out what a woman’s goals in life are before I consider them for a relationship. A person’s goals and lifestyle can tell me more about them in 20 minutes, than if I were to go on a few dates. It saves me a lot of wasted time and heartbreak.

      +1

      That’s exactly what I was trying to say in the post.

  • Abbot

    “It’s o.k. to use other people as long as it’s consensual.”

    aka the “feminist green light” bestowed on men. Certain men.

    “Break em in boys!”

    .

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    See Sassy for proof of this in action.

    I don’t say the things I say to win “brownie points” with the men here. I just say what is on my mind, judgement be damned.

    If the men want to take what I say, run with it, and use it as evidence that “AWALT”, that is on them. I can only speak for myself and my own preferences.

    It sounds to me like they’d love her for being one of the guys. Like that woman you know who took up MMA and got the boob job. She basically turned herself into an alpha dude with a vagina. Perhaps that’s what men would like most of all.

    The weird thing is that most men I have met either don’t like my personality or don’t understand it. I’ve never been “one of the boys”, and I’ve never wanted to be “one of the boys” either. I can’t really peg myself into any group actually.

    I look feminine, and I have many feminine interests/hobbies, but most of my thoughts have a very masculine or “rational” train to them. Most men that I have met have reacted to me with utter confusion. As I’ve said many times before, I don’t have any male friends. I also keep my core group of female friends small and strong. I have no use for the female herd, en masse. Most of the crap that comes with the female herd is nothing but inane drivel anyway.

    I feel like more of a lone female wolf, than anything else. Perhaps I’m just a female “sigma” with outward “alpha” appearances.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I don’t say the things I say to win “brownie points” with the men here. I just say what is on my mind, judgement be damned.

      If the men want to take what I say, run with it, and use it as evidence that “AWALT”, that is on them. I can only speak for myself and my own preferences.

      I agree 100%. You are honest and open about your preferences, and we all appreciate that.

  • Abbot

    Should women be concerned when men analyze deeply and figure things out? Like this –

    “The maternal instinct leads a woman to prefer a tenth share in a first rate man to the exclusive possession of a third rate one.”
    –George Bernard Shaw

    “Most women benefit from polygyny, while most men benefit from monogamy.”

    .

  • Hope

    Sassy, that’s interesting. I think I’m like a female outsider with no real herd, but with “beta” appearances. I have masculine hobbies and interests, and also used to have a lot of nerdy male friends. I can present as very logical (and I do code, theorycraft and enjoy data gathering), but my core is emotional.

    Speaking of gender raid ratios, in college I went to anime club a lot, and it was 99% guys. I was usually the only female in the room. The same thing would be the case at a lot of the tech conventions I went to, but this was before more women got into the field. Instead of being uncomfortable that I was the only female, I was quite content. The guys I guess saw me as one of their own, and many would try to recruit me (whether for gaming-related stuff or professionally).

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    aka the “feminist green light” bestowed on men. Certain men.

    Boy, can’t even quote someone in context.

    Introspection is to Abbot as modesty was to Mussolini.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Speaking of gender raid ratios, in college I went to anime club a lot, and it was 99% guys. I was usually the only female in the room. The same thing would be the case at a lot of the tech conventions I went to, but this was before more women got into the field. Instead of being uncomfortable that I was the only female, I was quite content. The guys I guess saw me as one of their own, and many would try to recruit me (whether for gaming-related stuff or professionally).

    Cool. :)

    I was pretty into anime/manga when I was younger as well. I also played a lot of videogames, and still do sometimes. I actually purchased two games yesterday from the Steam Summer Sale. :)

    Funny story for you.

    About 2 years ago, one of the major video game competitions took place in my city. I decided to attend the event, since I was a fan of some of the major competitors. The event lasted 3 days. Of the entire time that I was there, only 2 men talked to me. The two men that did talk to me looked beyond nervous and petrified. The rest of the men gawked at me, but never said anything or approached. I wasn’t too surprised by it, to be honest. Even when I do try to engage in some of my more “masculine” hobbies, the men look at me like they have just seen Cthulu.

    I’m actually watching the EVO 2013 stream on twitch.tv right now. No matter how much time passes, I’m still such a fan of fighting games.

  • DME

    Thank you for reminding me it’s EVO weekend!

  • Fish

    I don’t think anyone would argue that hookups are “better” the analogy I have always used is fast food. We know its not that great. We know its not good for us. But sometimes you’re hungry and just want something cheap and easy.

    Re: dork hobbies
    Its funny they are brought up, I was usually the guy with the hot girlfriend at the gaming convention (my ex that I was with for 2 years dressed up like baroness from GI Joe, this was WELL before the new movies). However, I don’t really modify my scale in areas where there are less females. I figure we need to have some common interest, that doesn’t need to be it.

    Its funny MMA is mentioned. I used to compete in Judo and have been taking BJJ, I had an ex that used to want to wrestle with me and it used to get her super worked up. Maybe she got into being “safely dominated”? (I had 60 pounds on her and she was not Rhonda Rousey)

  • J

    @Sassy and Hope

    The weird thing is that most men I have met either don’t like my personality or don’t understand it.

    I’ve had that experience with some men, but I’ve been adored by others. Many men do like strong women.

    I’ve never been “one of the boys”, and I’ve never wanted to be “one of the boys” either.

    I can be “one of the boys” at times and enjoy it. Boys get to do cooler stuff than girls do.

    I look feminine, and I have many feminine interests/hobbies, but most of my thoughts have a very masculine or “rational” train to them.

    Me too.

    As I’ve said many times before, I don’t have any male friends.

    I do

    I also keep my core group of female friends small and strong. I have no use for the female herd, en masse. Most of the crap that comes with the female herd is nothing but inane drivel anyway.

    Again, me too. I’m extremely selective with women, and many don’t like me. I don’t play nicey-nicey well. (I’m sure the commentariot is surprised by this admission.) I’m also rarely intentionally mean, though I am a frequent victim of mean-girlism.

    I feel like more of a lone female wolf, than anything else. Perhaps I’m just a female “sigma” with outward “alpha” appearances.

    Me too.

    I don’t feel I need to detail how I’m not as sweet as Hope is. ;-)

    Like both of you, I was a SF fan. I’m a bit too old to have gotten into gaming though.

  • J

    As an afterthought:

    Many men do like strong women–if they also project warmth.

  • Abbot

    “sometimes you’re hungry and just want something cheap and easy.”

    But claiming you don’t want to commit to former female fast-food gluttons is not met with claws-out feminist vitriol. Why is gluttonous sex; cheap and easy sex, such a different matter? In fact, they are so foaming-mad rabid about it, mocking and dismissing the entire “movement” was bound to happen.

    .

  • Gin Martini

    J: “Wow! This surprises me. DH seemed to have no reaction at all. I felt sad because a door was closing, but he seemed to stay pretty aloof from the whole thing.”

    I think the article meant that of the people who DO have midlife crises, they tend correlate with more the wife’s advanced age. I don’t think it’s correct to turn that around and assume that all menopause events cause a midlife crisis. Heck, my wife is fertile as all get-out and I had a minor one. Sue me.

    Or, maybe he’s a sigma, stays aloof and doesn’t share his feelings with you. A true sigma wouldn’t be concerned with such trivialities, would he? ;)

  • Gin Martini

    Sue: “In some ways it is counterintuitive – since it is the highest educated/highest earners with the lowest divorce rate. Also, we tend to assume that N is high in low SES groups who have OOW children, but that isn’t necessarily the case.”

    Perhaps there is a sexual middle class, with boring N/$ people in the middle, sandwiched by the rich and poor? I have no idea, this is all conjecture (as, I am sure, is also the author’s noticing that high $ = high N).

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    We know its not that great. We know its not good for us. But sometimes you’re hungry and just want something cheap and easy.

    This analogy is a favorite one of the unrestricted crowd. I doubt monogamous folks relate much to the idea that a sexual partner could be the equivalent of low-grade processed garbage. Some of which, with enough oil and saturated fat, may induce vomitting.

    That and… there’s no food I’m aware of in which a single helping could cause a pregnancy, communicate some STD, or cause emotional reactions in others. :???:

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    In a simple model: 100 women and 100 men are distributed among two islands.

    Island 1: 60 women and 40 men. Male scarcity, male preferences dominate. Promiscuous island with hook-up culture, same-day lays, porn type sexual menus, arms race for breast implant sizes and ultra-skimpy bikinis, women compete in nightly full-contact wet t-shirt twerking contests at the tiki bar, etc. On the other hand, there are few fights among men and lots of female job mobility.

    Island 2: 40 women and 60 men. Female scarcity, female preferences dominate. Monogamous island with extended and expensive courtships, men compete in coconut throwing and beach volleyball, rules forbidding women from wearing bikinis are enforced. On the other hand, there are lots of fights among men and women are generally kept barefoot and pregnant and seen as property by those men who have partners (1/3 do not).

    On paper, the non-college-educated cohort would have the surplus men that the college-educated cohort lacked, and would thus resemble Island 2. But clearly that is not quite what is going on, which is interesting…

  • Lokland

    @GM

    “Perhaps there is a sexual middle class, with boring N/$ people in the middle, sandwiched by the rich and poor? I have no idea, this is all conjecture (as, I am sure, is also the author’s noticing that high $ = high N).”

    Perhaps its also a bit of both.
    At low SES there is both a lack of discipline and from the financial POV there is no difference between the guy being involved or not.

    The middle class faces societal pressure towards monogamy as well as financial constraints which make a beta approach more likely.

    At the higher end the financial constraint is removed but a societal pressure still exists tending to monogamy. You get a mixed bag of those who break the rules and go after high N as well as those who prefer and choose monogamy.

    —————–

    Another possibility, I remember in uni that there were quite a few women who tried to be rich who were simply not. They tended to be the sluttiest.

    Ex. I was at the mall with a friend (she was helping me dress myself) and I bought a new phone. She went back to the stall and bought the same phone shortly thereafter. Her parents were LMC and she was on scholarship and she was having trouble paying rent…
    Anyway, also quite slutty.

    Perhaps in a culture that promotes promiscuity there is a ‘keeping up with the Jones’ mentality that sets in on a subset of the population.

  • Lokland

    “That and… there’s no food I’m aware of in which a single helping could cause a pregnancy, communicate some STD, or cause emotional reactions in others. :???:

    You are a lucky man.
    I remember walking into this one joint cause the named sounded cool…

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/ HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    I like to think about the 2 island scenarios, and others.

    In looking at the two broad SES groups one cannot assume that they are similar populations, regardless of how you believe their differences arose (environment/culture, genetics or personal choice).

    The lower SES, for whatever reasons, tend to have less impulse control, less future orientation and less stable families.

    The more interesting island thought experiments would be to take 60/40 and 40/60 m/f ratios from lower SES populations and put them on the island. Then do the same with the higher SES populations and see what happens.

    With low SES people you also have to factor in competitors that are outside of the m/f ratios. One example is how welfare gave poor women a baseline of material security so that a man was not needed so much at the personal level. This baseline level raised the income threshold for a poor man to be considered economically attractive to these poor women and many of these poor men could no longer compete.

  • J

    @GM

    Or, maybe he’s a sigma, stays aloof and doesn’t share his feelings with you. A true sigma wouldn’t be concerned with such trivialities, would he?

    A true sigma is concerned only to his own internal compass.

    BTW, I noticed a comment of yours at SSM regarding a lack of sympathy here for your having been fed a line of BS while growing up. I just want you to know that I do sympathise. You can imagine the sort of crap my parents told me. I just don’t think there’s much to do about it, but cut your losses and move on. That’s what I’ve tried to do.

  • J

    On paper, the non-college-educated cohort would have the surplus men that the college-educated cohort lacked, and would thus resemble Island 2. But clearly that is not quite what is going on, which is interesting…

    Because you’re not accounting for high death and incarceration rates among low SES men creating a surplus of women among the non-college-educated cohort ??? Or the fact that lower SES women are more likely to go to college than their brothers creating a larger female population in college??

  • Richard Aubrey

    J. There is no doubt some overlap between non-college educated and lower SES. But it’s by no means absolutely congruent.
    There are many reasons not to go to college, and a rational view of the payoff might lead a guy with options elsewhere.
    Skilled trades. Military. Contracting. Heavy construction, which can pay well if you get the hours. The guy who helped us redo our house–major proposition–is booked until spring. One-man shop with a couple of specialists he calls on to help from time to time. One dtr is in college and I believe the other is, too, but I”m not sure.
    His first job was industrial x-ray testing which required tremendous technical education and skill, not to mention problem-solving abilities.
    The high death and incarceration rates among the lower SES are not even across demographic groups, while mate-seeking tends to stay within demographic groups.
    So just for grins, figure the $100k spent at a modestly costly college. Don’t spend it. Put it in the bank. Or someplace. A house. Car paid off. How long would you have to work at an entry level job after college–presuming it wasn’t one of those nearly-mythical jobs on the Street–before you got $100k ahead and with $5k passive income? To put it another way, what would be the payments on $100kl college debt? Take an entry-level job with the–snort–high pay college degrees bring and subtract the debt service and see if you net out into a lower SES than you would wish.
    My son graduated in practically the last class in which grads in business were getting signing bonuses. Ancient history.
    Point is, the SES issue may not be as pointed as you think.
    Women are more likely to go to college from any SES, I believe. Part of that is fewer options without the degree and the other may be the increasingly hostile atmosphere in college toward men. See the “Dear Colleague” letter from Dept of Ed to colleges telling them that due process for men would cost the colleges big bucks and might even bring the DoJ down on them.

  • Fish

    @MM
    ““That and… there’s no food I’m aware of in which a single helping could cause a pregnancy, communicate some STD, or cause emotional reactions in others. :???:

    Actually dining out can cause any number of diseases, and even hookup sex is unlikely to cause pregnancy with the right precautions. My point is that sex is a biological urge that some people choose to partake in. I like the restaurant analogy because there is a scarcity and pricing model there, mcdonalds is cheaper/easier to obtain than fridays which is cheaper/easier to obtain than (pick your fav upscale 4-5 star restaurant).

    I think trying to correlate unrestrictiveness is like trying to correlate homosexuality. Yes, you can point to some things which might be a cause in some people, but some people just are.

    @BB
    I think you are onto something here. I think in a lot of situations, sex is a buyers market for men. Not to get back to commoditizing vagina, but gettng sex in an appropriate SMV is very much a buyers market for most men. My arguments have always been with this in mind. I believe the best choice for anyone is to build value so they don’t get priced out of the market. For example, if I let myself go, I could probably still get sex, but it would be with people I didn’t find particularly attractive. So, I need to maintain or improve to be able to maintain my current market conditions.

    I’ll let you know how the 60/40 split island (otherwise known as west lafayette) works out. LOL

  • Gin Martini

    J, that’s very strange.

  • Anacaona

    Agreed.
    +10000000000

    Female scarcity, female preferences dominate. Monogamous island with extended and expensive courtships, men compete in coconut throwing and beach volleyball, rules forbidding women from wearing bikinis are enforced. On the other hand, there are lots of fights among men and women are generally kept barefoot and pregnant and seen as property by those men who have partners (1/3 do not).
    Nah this is college ratio and we still have a large majority not hooking up but thinking everyone else does. You need a third island with a ratio of 30 women for 60 men at least.

    Perhaps in a culture that promotes promiscuity there is a ‘keeping up with the Jones’ mentality that sets in on a subset of the population.
    This is just the female dark triad of low impulse control, Queenbeeness and hipergamy at its best. The same part of the brain that says “I want that new cell phone so I can have the same status as Susie Celebrity or even higher one and cannot wait to save to get it” is the same part that says “I want to have sex with that hot guy both because he makes me wet and because I can brag that I can get the same men that Susie celebrity”, YMMV.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    A girl who treats herself like a Big Mac is obviously not going to engage the romantic side of a lot of guys.

  • Anacaona

    @Hope, @J, @Sassy
    I have similar experiences that Hope except that I suck at gaming so I was mostly tolerated than invited :p. But I had usually two dual groups one of men and manly pursues and one of women. Because every time I lacked female friends I felt imbalanced then the same happened when I lacked male friends. Maybe because in my own family we were 3 women and 3 men? So I grew up in both pack and herd combined? Pondering pondering….

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    Actually dining out can cause any number of diseases, and even hookup sex is unlikely to cause pregnancy with the right precautions.

    Yikes! My suggestion would be to stop dining at restaurants in which you come down with something after a single meal. Actually, the STD analogy works pretty well in that situation. :shock:

    Of course, anyone *can* take the right precautions, which isn’t the issue. Safe sex goes without saying, at least for sober adults. But NSA sex, at least amongst young people and those in college, quite often goes hand-in-hand with alcohol consumption, possibly illicit drug use, which equals impair judgment.

    Other than that, I’m not sure what correlation you were referring to. My observation was merely: that monogamous folks tend to view their sexual partners as lovers, not meals, or flavors of ice cream, or automobiles, or whatever disposable metaphor fits. Kind of dehumanizing, actually…

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Fish

    I have a good amount of family and friends in Indiana, so I’ve known of the talent level, or lack thereof, in West Lafayette for years.

    Funny though, I was at the NCAA Basketball Tournament a few years ago, and noticed 5 of the hottest girls I’ve ever seen in my life all decked out in Purdue swag… I literally did a triple take.

    Smart money says they were probably the players’ girlfriends or groupies… but damn, that was a pleasant surprise.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Here’s some notable schools that are over 50% male:

    Virginia Tech 59%
    Stanford 57%
    Iowa State 56%
    NC State 56%
    Utah 54%
    Clemson 54%
    Illinois 53%
    Penn State 53%
    Texas A&M 52%
    Duke 52%
    USC 52%
    Colorado 52%
    SMU 52%
    Auburn 52%
    Northwestern 52%
    Nebraska 51%
    Oklahoma State 51%

    Also discovered that my undergrad alma mater, which was about 52F/48M about 5 years ago, is now 58F/42M… Man, I was born 5 years too early.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy Hendricks

      That’s an interesting list! Stanford at 57% is a shocker, IMO. I suspect that the key factor here is very strong engineering schools, e.g. Virginia, Stanford, Duke. Going to a college with a strong STEM curriculum sounds like a very good decision for girls.

      I retract my earlier judgment, thanks for the correction.

  • Fish

    @jimmy

    “Smart money says they were probably the players’ girlfriends or groupies… but damn, that was a pleasant surprise.”

    I believe Drew Brees met his wife there. I’d say she’s an outlier. However, in my travels, the schools with the highest level of “talent” were Iowa and Wisconsin.

    @MM
    I actually don’t know of anyone who got pregnant in college. I know a couple women who got pregnant in high school, but our culture (at least the ones in college) seems to be good at preventing unwanted pregnancy in that sector. I’m not saying all women are big macs (or for those outside the US, royale with cheese), I’m saying some are. I always looked at it like a pyramid with the bottom being those women I would neither want to date or sleep with, the level above women I would sleep with but not date, the level above that I would both sleep with and date and the top wifey material.

    It has been brought up before that while I (and a lot of unrestricted people as well) am not that picky about who I will have sex with, i am extremely picky about who I will be in a relationship with and even pickier about marriage. There is an opportunity cost aspect to “giving up” flirting and having sex with others. Obviously I’m not at the SUPER high end of the N spectrum where I have a new chick every week, but i do ok.

    i’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, while I “get” the restricted mindset, I reject is as not having utility for me. I feel like most restricted people don’t “get” the unrestricted mindset. I feel like it is crucial to understand in the current SMP.

  • Escoffier

    Is that figure for Stanford undergrad or Stanford overall? If the former, I would be very surprised. The latter would make sense, though.

  • JP
  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    I feel like most restricted people don’t “get” the unrestricted mindset. I feel like it is crucial to understand in the current SMP.

    Do they really need to? Beyond academic interest (à la criminal profiling), it’s merely an issue of knowing which character types to avoid dating.

    Which begs the question: do unrestricted “gents” who view women as red meat consider themselves to be relationship filet mignon? I mean, after going out for greasy burgers whenever there’s an itch they can’t scratch. Better question: do women worth marrying (exclusively chaste and/or restricted around here) consider them to be quality choice cuts?

  • JP

    Well, I have a habit of attending over 50% male schools.

    Because they gave me money.

    Go figure.

  • Anacaona

    Which begs the question: do unrestricted “gents” who view women as red meat consider themselves to be relationship filet mignon?
    Yes they do. According to them as soon as market conditions change or the right perfect girl arrives they can be as faithful and content with one woman as their restricted counterparts. I’ll see it when I believe it. And no a few years holding out for a woman is not proof someone with at least 10 years of marriage that had stayed faithfully with his woman during all the challenges a couple goes through (temptation, illness, routine…) is the real measure of their relationship fitness, IMO.

    Better question: do women worth marrying (exclusively chaste and/or restricted around here) consider them to be quality choice cuts?
    Problem is that a a restricted but hipergamous girl will not object to a highly ‘successful’ male and will endure a lot to keep him on her life. I’m pretty sure us restricted and low hipergamy ones shudder at the though of spending our lives with someone that used other women as disposable cups because they weren’t hot enough but willing. Problem is men don’t count the women that won’t have them but the ones that do. Even if 80% of women will look the other way it doesn’t really matter if they can get it on with 20% of them are putting out. Sluttyness and hypergamy makes cadinesh a viable lifestyle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      According to them as soon as market conditions change or the right perfect girl arrives they can be as faithful and content with one woman as their restricted counterparts.

      I’m sure most players would claim that, but the research shows clearly that as N climbs, interest in monogamy drops. I don’t see why those men would even care to marry, but if they decide they want kids, they are likely to face rapidly waning sexual interest in their partner. The “greatest hits” reel just won’t quit playing.

      This is the best reason, IMO, for a man to limit his N, whether or not he is attractive enough to get casual sex. Obviously, this only applies to men who hope to marry and have a family.

      James Bond types need not concern themselves.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @Jimmy

    Interesting list.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    It would be interesting to correlate the m/f ratio of the individual universities with the amount and type of sex or sexual partners that were had by students at each school and see if that confirms the sex-ratio hypotheses.

  • Sai

    “Better question: do women worth marrying (exclusively chaste and/or restricted around here) consider them to be quality choice cuts?”

    Even after years of sexual frustration and a shrink that made me cry, I would be literally unable to accept somebody like that. If I was #66, I’d be lying awake at night, wondering when it’d be time for #67, #68, and the #69-72 orgy, not to mention another five I’d never know about, plus my first STD.

  • Angelguy

    “Problem is men don’t count the women that won’t have them but the ones that do. Even if 80% of women will look the other way it doesn’t really matter if they can get it on with 20% of them are putting out. Sluttyness and hypergamy makes cadinesh a viable lifestyle.”

    @Anacaona

    Why would any man want to think about the other 80% that reject him?
    In order for any man to date, rejection becomes an acceptable outcome.
    One becomes numb after a while to it.

    A Man is going to concentrate on the 20 % that end up with him because that is the only feedback they are getting.

    That 80%, who cares about them?

  • Anacaona

    Why would any man want to think about the other 80% that reject him?
    Given that many men in the manosphere are crushing their personalities and forsaking the chance of a relationship where they can find a woman that won’t bail when they share their weakness with them or won’t cheat with the first higher value male that cross their paths I would think trying to date the majority of less hypergamic women is more profitable in the long run than getting with crazy hotties that will put out in date one and who will be hot to look at in seconds time but that won’t be loyal unless the man maintains a 100% Alpha frame at all times, YMMV.

  • Angelguy

    “It would be interesting to correlate the m/f ratio of the individual universities with the amount and type of sex or sexual partners that were had by students at each school and see if that confirms the sex-ratio hypotheses.”

    @Han Solo

    It would, but would only work if it was done anymonusly.
    People tend to exaggerate and lie on these type of surveys.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @Ana

    If a man is just looking for sex then he can try to put on an attractive act, and it will sometimes work, depending on how well he plays the part.

    If a man is looking for a medium or long-term reln then it is vital that he be true to who he is and, ideally, improving towards his better self.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a man is just looking for sex then he can try to put on an attractive act, and it will sometimes work, depending on how well he plays the part.

      If a man is looking for a medium or long-term reln then it is vital that he be true to who he is and, ideally, improving towards his better self.

      +1

      Developing better short-term attraction triggers is a good strategy, but it will lead to disaster if it’s not backed up by real effort at self-development, as well as specific targeting of the women you want for a relationship.

      It’s tantamount to employing a Dark Triad strategy – it can’t work because unlike the Dark Triads, these men do want emotional intimacy and connection. But because they’ve been attracting Dark Triad loving women, the minute they show any emotion, attraction dies. Men need to make sure they’re working on attracting women with a compatible emotional makeup.

  • JP

    “Even after years of sexual frustration and a shrink that made me cry, I would be literally unable to accept somebody like that.”

    I’m always up for a “shrink that made me cry” story.

    What happened?

    (I haven’t personally heard one of these for about two months now.)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Yes, men in the Manosphere have to crush their personalities a little bit to get women.

    Prior to that, many had the exceeedingly pleasant experience of being entirely invisible to the opposite sex if not outright abused.

    Essentially they just under-went the industrial revolution and are now swimming in more goods than they know what to do with. Obviously the Industrial Revolution brings with it all sorts of problems that they might not even know about, but they have just undertaken the biggest leap in living standards in human history.

    Kinda hard to fault them for not looking at or even acknowledging the other 80% of girls.

  • Anacaona

    If a man is looking for a medium or long-term reln then it is vital that he be true to who he is and, ideally, improving towards his better self.
    Tell the “kill the Beta” crowd. Also most of self improvement misses the advice of men needed to filter women’s character and personality once they are attractive enough. Hence why still doesn’t work to create successful relationships, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    Kinda hard to fault them for not looking at or even acknowledging the other 80% of girls.
    Who in turn become invisible themselves to all men in their vicinity and have to resource to listen to the successful Queen Bee’s/hot and crazy that say “slut it up that is how men will see you!” creating the Plularistic Ignorance we all know by memory now.Vicious circle galore! So you would agree that the manosphere is as much part of the problem as feminism sex positivism now?

  • JP

    “Also most of self improvement misses the advice of men needed to filter women’s character and personality once they are attractive enough. Hence why still doesn’t work to create successful relationships, YMMV.”

    Many of those 20% aren’t “attractive enough”.

    I’m pretty sure that physical attractiveness isn’t really part of the equation here.

    I also wonder if about half of those 20% have some sort of significant psychiatric/psychological issue.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    If it’s true self-improvement then part of that is getting in touch with who someone really is and what he wants. And that will include putting up things that he does or doesn’t want in a woman and reflection upon what will lead to a stable relationship.

    Bottom line is a man has to improve himself if he wants better odds of a reln in today’s environment. That gets him in the ballpark. Then he has to choose well too.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Comparing the manosphere to feminism is like comparing a duck to a 70,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric ton meteor with its own legion of Cthulu shock troops and a point-defense system with teleporting photon torpedoes accurate to the Andromeda Galaxy.

    Premartial sex feminism is an omnipotent force that has taken over practically the entire planet.

    The manosphere is a collection of a couple hundred guys that post on blogs read by maybe 10,000 regular readers.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    Filtering a woman on character and personality is not hard to do. It’s just whether a man really wants to or not. Too often if he’s desperate enough or she’s hot enough then he’ll overlook those things he shouldn’t.

    And part of that is just men realizing that it’s alright for him to have boundaries and have a strong frame from which to act and that he shouldn’t be a pushover. Men can learn that through studying game. Once he realizes he can have boundaries then it becomes much more easy to filter women.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @ADBG

    Comparing the manosphere to feminism is like comparing a duck to a 70,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric ton meteor

    Well said and I fully agree. Feminism–aka The Fempire–is one of the dominate forces of our time. The sphere is more like the rebel alliance that is just starting to form and become known. It’s winning over a few people here and there but is still fairly invisible in comparison.

  • Anacaona

    @ADBG and @Han
    I meant in our little corner of the Internet. Not in global terms. I know feminism is more widespread but many manosphere bloggers had reached the point where “The remedy is worse than the disease” creating more cads and allowing men to get on with crazy hotties only makes them more bitter about women and cynical about humanity no less, YMMV.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @Ana

    Taking things to excess is not good. I think most men aren’t that successful with game in terms of being PUA, either because they only learned game to get good enough to get a gf or they burn out from the PUA life after a while. Look at how even guys like Roosh and others have kind of burnt out.

    Most PUA coaches and PUAs don’t keep at it forever. They experience it for a while and realize it’s not all that fulfilling and eventually evolve into something else.

  • Emily

    Off-topic: My bf and I tried geocaching this weekend and it was great! If you’re looking for a silly, geeky, fun, free (!) date, then I’d highly recommend it. :D

  • angelguy

    “Also most of self improvement misses the advice of men needed to filter women’s character and personality once they are attractive enough. Hence why still doesn’t work to create successful relationships, YMMV.”

    @Ana

    The problem with evaulating a women’s character and personality is the accountability factor. There was talk about Men having boundaries, in regards to filtering Women. What doesn’t get spoken about is what those boundaries are in choosing Women. With Men, it tends to center around occupation and wealth in the public eye. Character and personality seems to take a back seat to this.
    WIth Women, it can be more difficult to define, beyond the stereotype of slut.
    I am speaking about normal women.

    how do men go looking for LTR , questioning and evaluating ,”She could make a good mother or wife? when those standards aren’t so appearent. Homemaker is looked down by feminism. I think it is easy to spot a Man who is not a good provider as opposed to a woman who might not be a good wife.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ana

    I meant in our little corner of the Internet. Not in global terms. I know feminism is more widespread but many manosphere bloggers had reached the point where “The remedy is worse than the disease” creating more cads and allowing men to get on with crazy hotties only makes them more bitter about women and cynical about humanity no less, YMMV.

    Can you reference anything specific? How are the manosphere writers in general spawning more cads?
    The manosphere direction I see being taken is more of a disassociation from “more N=more awesome” and towards “be your own self-improving man.”
    They do have a negative attitude towards women on many issues and tend to think of you mostly as feral. That’s quite distinct from suggesting that men should only P&D women and crazy women at that.

    Furthermore, the Manosphere is not the Manosphere, but a subset in various alt-right ideologies that are collectively termed “Dark Enlightenment.” The mission of the Manosphere is not to put men into loving relationships. It is to further alt-right ideas in order to engage and defeat the excess social liberalism that is weakening society.

    I think they go too far in their vitrol and they need to understand that certain websites, like HUS and MMSL, are not the forums for their discussions.

  • Sai

    @JP
    “I’m always up for a “shrink that made me cry” story.

    What happened?”

    She got me to admit

    A) I’m deathly afraid of going senile, like my mother’s old mentor/friend. I’m OK with dying in my sleep, and I can accept there may be an accident (hopefully quick and painless), but I MUST not have my mind slip away while my body looks around not recognizing anything or anybody…

    B) I suck at getting myself off (TMI, sorry).

    She also compared me to a certain First Lady -it wasn’t mean, she was never actually cruel, but we saw things differently and I would leave wanting to punch a baby. (NEVER DO THIS)

  • Anacaona

    how do men go looking for LTR , questioning and evaluating ,”She could make a good mother or wife? when those standards aren’t so appearent. Homemaker is looked down by feminism. I think it is easy to spot a Man who is not a good provider as opposed to a woman who might not be a good wife.
    That is actually a good point. In the top of my head.
    I would say that personally poor impulse control is a red flag.
    I would say that lack of word is another one if she promises things just to save face and never goes through with them she probably won’t honor marriage commitment.
    If she doesn’t have real friends like she is always bad mouthing her female friends that is probably a red flag of how she speaks about you when you are not around.
    How she treats people lesser than her (in looks, status or money) is also a good indication.
    If she spent too much time preoccupied for herself and doesn’t care about others that is narcissism.
    If she tries to be the center of attention and cannot take a back seat and relax ever also red flag.
    Anyone else care to chime in?

  • Anacaona

    Can you reference anything specific?
    Creating dread, spinning plates, assuming all women that don’t put out by date third are to be nexted?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    You are picking out pieces of a dogma that you do not like and blowing them up into huge debates. Reading through the manosphere, those are relatively minor concerns of larger topics.

    In politics, we call this a “wedge issue” and the rejection of dark tactics is analogous to a “litmus test”

  • Anacaona

    @ADBG
    Whatever….

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “Given that many men in the manosphere are crushing their personalities and forsaking the chance of a relationship where they can find a woman that won’t bail when they share their weakness with them or won’t cheat with the first higher value male that cross their paths I would think trying to date the majority of less hypergamic women is more profitable in the long run than getting with crazy hotties that will put out in date one and who will be hot to look at in seconds time but that won’t be loyal unless the man maintains a 100% Alpha frame at all times, YMMV.”

    Not entirely.

    Lets take Bob who cannot date anyone.
    Neither the 20 nor 80% of women. He is being rejected by 100% of women.

    (I realize most women do not think this is possible.)

    A man who finds a way to get with the 20% is not really forsaking his personality and ruining any relationship chances with the 80%.

    You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A man who finds a way to get with the 20% is not really forsaking his personality and ruining any relationship chances with the 80%.

      How often do you think that men who can attract zero women make their way into tapping the most hypergamous 20%?

  • Anacaona

    Lets take Bob who cannot date anyone.
    Neither the 20 nor 80% of women. He is being rejected by 100% of women.

    (I realize most women do not think this is possible.)

    A man who finds a way to get with the 20% is not really forsaking his personality and ruining any relationship chances with the 80%.

    You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.

    It seems that is more like Bob doesn’t even knows the 80% exist . You need to remember that a lot of us HUS girls were completely invisible as well, the theory that women are rejecting men would imply the men approach all women equally, we know that is not true. If Bob had approached I would had say yes. I didn’t had any success until I approached myself.

  • J

    @GM/Richard

    Some possibilities I threw out in answer to BB’s ponderings. I’m not married to any of it enough to debate it.

    @ADBG

    The mission of the Manosphere is not to put men into loving relationships. It is to further alt-right ideas in order to engage and defeat the excess social liberalism that is weakening society.

    I think that’s an amazing insight! It explains the relationship between all the various corners of the ‘sphere very well.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: Han’s comment about PUA types burning out. It is possible that seduction, viewed as some kind of skillset, follows a conventional learning curve. It we assumed that there was some kind of metric for seduction efficiency and that N count was a way to accumulate experience in a stylized meet-attract-seduce-fuck operational loop, then it is possible to imagine a 10% learning curve in place.

    (Warning: simplistic model) Every time a man’s N doubled (assuming it was due to his successful application of a seduction skills toolkit, rather than passive N accumulation by being hot or offsides N accumulation by using sex workers), his seduction efficiency would increase by approx. 10%. So from N=1 to N=2, the single N addition got him a full 10% increase in efficiency. He reaches N=5 and he needs to double his N again in order to gain another 10% edge. He’s at N=10 and wants to be better at his craft—he has to get to N=20.

    Now imagine he gets out to 20 N—he still needs to double his N to get a 10% advantage. At 40 N, he has to accumulate still 40 more in order to get the 10% hit.

    At some point, the accumulation of enough N to make a tangible performance difference would require full-time, full-energy preoccupation with same-day-lays in order for the man to have a chance at seeing any improvement in the realistic future. Unless he’s training for a fuckshop Olympics and needs every last, even theoretical refinement in technique, the guy would be better off pursuing other self-development projects—activities that still granted him a steep, satisfying learning curve and a chance at low-hanging fruit.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com Morpheus

    Yes they do. According to them as soon as market conditions change or the right perfect girl arrives they can be as faithful and content with one woman as their restricted counterparts. I’ll see it when I believe it. And no a few years holding out for a woman is not proof someone with at least 10 years of marriage that had stayed faithfully with his woman during all the challenges a couple goes through (temptation, illness, routine…) is the real measure of their relationship fitne

    Ana,

    FWIW, I’m going on 7+ years now :) Not quite your ten-year test, but pretty close. I think a woman has every right to filter out guys based on whatever criteria she wants. I believe in a “free market” for the SMP. That said, I’m pretty sure guys like Buena Vista, Fish, Han, Zach wouldn’t get too upset over being filtered out. If I were hypothetically single tomorrow, it wouldn’t bother me one bit if a woman disqualified me because I had sex with a Hooters girl on a second hang-out on a spring break vacation and never talked to her again. But it is kind of silly to maintain the position that behavior makes it impossible to stay faithful once married. At the broad, generalized level I have no doubt “unrestricted” cheat more than “restricted” but just like NAWALT broad generalizations don’t apply to every single individual. I’m pretty sure my co-blogger Han Solo master of the Jedi force and kick-ass pilot will be able to be faithful once he meets his Princess Leia :)

    But yeah, everyone and anyone has the right to filter on whatever they want. I will NEVER tell someone they are in the wrong because they filter on X. That said, filtering comes with trade-offs, and I’ll leave it there.

    sure most players would claim that, but the research shows clearly that as N climbs, interest in monogamy drops. I don’t see why those men would even care to marry, but if they decide they want kids, they are likely

    That’s easy.

    1. Just like a professional athlete, it is possible to stay in the game too long and embarrass yourself. Michael Jordan of the Wizards wasn’t Michael Jordan of the 1996 Bulls. I don’t care how tight your Game is, or how charismatic a guy is, 50, 60, 70 doesn’t stack up to 25, 30 or even 40. Men have a Wall too. The forward looking understand that.

    2. Marriage with the RIGHT woman comes with a litany of positive benefits and factors that no way, no how, no chance can be obtained from a rotation/harem of booty calls and casual FBs. The mistake being made here by some is in assuming that just because someone is capable of decoupling emotion from sexual activity, that also means they don’t value an emotional connection.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Marriage with the RIGHT woman comes with a litany of positive benefits and factors that no way, no how, no chance can be obtained from a rotation/harem of booty calls and casual FBs. The mistake being made here by some is in assuming that just because someone is capable of decoupling emotion from sexual activity, that also means they don’t value an emotional connection.

      It is very possible for a man to ruin himself for monogamous intimacy via promiscuity.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/07/relationshipstrategies/can-a-manwhore-ever-really-settle-down-even-if-he-wants-to/

      The more women a man has had sex with, the lower the odds that he can be sexually gratified by one woman. Ever.

      I. You’re likely to experience a more dramatic drop in your physical attraction to a woman after having sex with her.

      Men who have had many sex partners (defined as 6+), (and therefore successfully pursue a short-term strategy) experience [an especially] negative affective shift marked by a drop-off in physical attraction to their partners (Haselton & Buss, 2001).

      II. Marital sexual satisfaction declines more than 5% for every partner a man has been with other than his spouse.

      This may be due to the evolutionary biological theory that males tend to be more invested in or notice more the physical aspects of the sexual relationship, while women tend to be more invested in or notice more the emotional aspects of the sexual relationship (Buunk, Angleitner, & Buss, 1996). Due to this difference, premarital sexual promiscuity may not influence females as much because the past emotional connections are no longer salient and the focus is on meeting the needs of the current relationship.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com Morpheus

    On topic to the post, it occurs to me that my points 1 & 2 are essentially the result of being introspective.

  • Anacaona

    FWIW, I’m going on 7+ years now :) Not quite your ten-year test, but pretty close.
    Let me know in 3 more years and any third person activities even if with consent of your partner don’t count as staying faithful. BTW. ;)

    I’m actually being generous with SMP conditions with the 10 years. My real measure is a lifetime. My husband cheating on me in 10 years wouldn’t go down as “well it was about time’, YMMV.

    but just like NAWALT broad generalizations don’t apply to every single individual.
    Except this is not an AMALT is All Unrestricted Are Like That. I would apply the same to an unrestricted woman. So I think this is as good as saying All Nazis are racists, a generalization that is more accurate than others, YMMV.

  • Fish

    @MM
    ” Better question: do women worth marrying (exclusively chaste and/or restricted around here) consider them to be quality choice cuts?”

    You are making a lot of value judgments here. I have dated women of low N who were fairly serious about me. I actually never claimed that I’m a “catch”, I’m fun to spend time with, good in bed, I’m pretty ideal for a STR, which is the kind of relationship I generally end up with (Fridays in my analogy).

    Re: the 80%
    The points here are absolutely correct although I’ve never had anyone refuse to date me over N. i’ve had people filter me for height or age, but never N. It could be that I am selecting only unrestricted women, or just more experienced at finding women open to my type of relationships.

    Re: why understand the mindset
    head in the sand is never a good tactic. whether you see unrestricteds as the “enemy” or just a market influence, we have an effect on the market, and it is always worth investigating the other side. YMMV

    Re: reformed high N
    I’ve said before that there are certain behaviors that are unsustainable. If the goal is better sex, that is an arms race that you can’t win. I used to fall into this mindset, but much like the cold war, when do you have enough nukes?

    However, with a change in mindset and the right person, there is no reason a high N person couldn’t settle down. Their reasons would just have to go beyond sex. I can’t accept the fact that high N = impossible to have an LTR. First of all, its entirely too simplistic. Second of all, while higher N does generally make one have higher standards in the bedroom, it is still possible for women to meet them.

    There seems to be way too much of an all or nothing mindset going around. Unrestricted people don’t only filter for looks & ease of sex. Women who aren’t virgins can make great marriage material. There does need to be filtering, but one thing a person gains from a lot of dating is a better grasp of analyzing people. I’m not saying restricted people don’t have this, but some things you learn better by doing.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @ADBG

    In politics, we call this a “wedge issue” and the rejection of dark tactics is analogous to a “litmus test”.

    There is value in approching any issue in an apolitical (or apartisan) fashion. I believe George Washington said something about that.

    I’ve read about and studied the oldest profession a great deal, and if there must be 2 sides in a debate, I see nothing wrong a worst case assessment of all parties. At least then, no one side can honestly claim the ethical high ground, just that it’s “not as bad” as the other side.

    So if this femo-angry-sphere (however that’s defined) is judged by it’s worst and most offensive members, and detractors seem to do just, extremists being very easy to dismiss, certainly that standard can be used for all points of view…

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @Mr. Fish

    You are making a lot of value judgments here.

    As opposed to what everybody else does, huh? :wink:

    No, I was just framing the issue, as that description of “worth marrying” pretty much sums up the preferences of male regulars around here (except for Tom). Though I can’t say I’ve ever ranked women in terms of “beef quality”.

    I don’t believe that N alone is the deciding factor in whether someone, man or woman, will have successful and monogamous LTR or marriage. But it’s a flag for many restricted folks I imagine. Double-digit N (median x 2) is where a host of marital issues (divorce, infidelity) start to become evident in population statistics.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “How often do you think that men who can attract zero women make their way into tapping the most hypergamous 20%?”

    I didn’t say that.
    I think most of them just give up and die.

    What I did say was that a warning a man who is trying to succeed with woman from any technique that a group of woman will not like him for it is a hollow threat.

    They already don’t like him.

    Can’t lose what you never had.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What I did say was that a warning a man who is trying to succeed with woman from any technique that a group of woman will not like him for it is a hollow threat.

      They already don’t like him.

      Can’t lose what you never had.

      OK, I agree that is a hollow threat.

  • Gin Martini

    Define high or many! I’m not sure how median (6) could be high. But certainly 2x the median could be described that way. And plenty of people with so-called high, of either definition, seem to do well for LTRs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Define high or many! I’m not sure how median (6) could be high. But certainly 2x the median could be described that way. And plenty of people with so-called high, of either definition, seem to do well for LTRs.

      Heh, like me.

      I don’t know where the magic line is. I think some people are incapable of emotional intimacy with N=1. Others may be good in LTRs with an N of 40. There are no hard and fast rules. I think that from a female POV, you want to avoid a man who thinks of having sex as “getting pussy.” IOW, unrestricted people are probably not good bets for LTRs. To the extent that N reflects sociosexuality, it’s a good metric, but it’s not an exact science, obviously. Good judgment will always be required.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @GM

    I’m not sure how median (6) could be high.

    By definition, it isn’t. And it’s just a number without explanation; surveys never dig that deeply. And it’s 4 for married men, and 2 or 3 for married women, BTW.

    But if someone’s sexual history is an important character trait, and around here it seems to be the only thing of consequence in a potential wife, N + context may be the most useful combo of all. That and, whether one smokes.

    Assuming N follows the baseball metaphor, and we can dispense with this “hookup” shit, N romances probably stacks up far better than N drunken mistakes WRT relationship attractiveness.

    IMUO, of course!

  • Anacaona

    There seems to be way too much of an all or nothing mindset going around. Unrestricted people don’t only filter for looks & ease of sex. Women who aren’t virgins can make great marriage material. There does need to be filtering, but one thing a person gains from a lot of dating is a better grasp of analyzing people. I’m not saying restricted people don’t have this, but some things you learn better by doing.
    Well we are using an strategic POV. You might consider hiring a recovering alcoholic to run a Liquor Store but I wouldn’t consider a smart move. Advising anyone to assume they are the exception to the rule of a known unrestricted is bad advice no matter what angle you paint it. Whatever you say is just wishful thinking at this point.
    The same applies to everyone with a high N in HUS except maybe Morpheus or Tom who claims to have been very unrestricted and happily married to an unrestricted woman for many years until she died both being faithful I think. So yeah when the odds are so low telling people to stay clear is the smart advice.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/ Morpheus

    It is very possible for a man to ruin himself for monogamous intimacy via promiscuity.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/07/relationshipstrategies/can-a-manwhore-ever-really-settle-down-even-if-he-wants-to/

    The more women a man has had sex with, the lower the odds that he can be sexually gratified by one woman. Ever.

    I. You’re likely to experience a more dramatic drop in your physical attraction to a woman after having sex with her.

    Yeah….I was just answering your question:

    I don’t see why those men would even care to marry,

    Anyways, out in the real world, there are a whole host of reasons a relationship/marriage might succeed or fail that go beyond a particular value for male N or 5-20% differentials in sexual “satisfaction”.

    My best friend just broke off his engagement, and there were a number of problems, but the primary one was the massive personality difference as he is an extreme extravert, and she was very introverted which made for a massive cocktail of friction, tension, insecurity, and clinginess in social situations. It wouldn’t shock me if extrovert/introvert pairing often result in high levels of dissatisfaction because of the different priority placed on “socializing” but as you well know the pairing can work also.

    AFAIK, financial reasons are still at the top of the list for many marriage breakups so assessing compatibility there probably is more important than either sociosexuality or personality characteristics.

    Anyways, like I said earlier, one can filter however one pleases. I understand well that at least here, the unrestricted and/or high N man has become a SMP bogeyman of sorts. FWIW, that guy in real life often differs materially from the caricature you describe.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Morpheus

      I understand well that at least here, the unrestricted and/or high N man has become a SMP bogeyman of sorts. FWIW, that guy in real life often differs materially from the caricature you describe.

      The high N man is definitely an SMP bogeyman! Hazmat suit required! Stay 10 feet away from that dirty pole!

      Seriously, of course there are high N men who are happily married. But the unrestricted male has a much higher rate of divorce and infidelity. I don’t question a man’s right to be wary of a woman’s sexual history, because it predicts future behvior. It is exactly the same for men. For women to carefully consider the risk profile of a potential partner is just common sense. The idea that a history of casual sex says nothing about relationship fitness is ludicrous.

      I feel extremely confident that admonishing women to avoid high N men will not result in any loss of happiness to women.

  • angelguy

    -poor impulse control is a red flag.
    -lack of word is another one if she promises things just to save face and never goes through with them.
    – bad mouthing her female friends.
    -How she treats people lesser than her (in looks, status or money)
    -If she spent too much time preoccupied for herself and doesn’t care about others that is narcissism.
    -If she tries to be the center of attention and cannot take a back seat and relax ever also red flag.

    @Ana
    All good points, I would like to add some of my own here:

    -Doesn’t have respect or appreciate the opposite sex.
    -Spends money excessively and is in debt.
    -Doesn’t work at a real job.
    -Too co-dependent on her friends.
    -inflexible to sharing and negotiation.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, should a woman’s N filtering of a potential mate be modified or contextualized for college gender ratio or other, similar factors? In other words, if a guy racked up a large N while attending College of Charleston, is that different from a guy who racked up an equivalently large N while attending The Citadel…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Susan, should a woman’s N filtering of a potential mate be modified or contextualized for college gender ratio or other, similar factors? In other words, if a guy racked up a large N while attending College of Charleston, is that different from a guy who racked up an equivalently large N while attending The Citadel…?

      You’re asking if all high N guys are created equal. I think the answer is no. In the same way that men here (usually high N men) have said that they evaluate a woman’s N relative to her level of attractiveness because it speaks to opportunity, the same can be said of men. I have watched a couple of boys in the neighborhood grow up into extraordinarily good looking young men. They have had constant opportunities for casual sex, and they have availed themselves of some of those opportunities. Yet I still think they’re good guys. In no way are they in the same league as some creepy PUA hitting on bar skanks.

      OTOH, can a woman trust a good guy who hits 100 by 25, then resolves to be faithful? It’s certainly possible he might be, but I think the odds are much higher that he’ll be plagued by that greatest hits tape, the way Zach said he was. It depends too, I think, on a man’s predilection for sexual variety. This is clearly on a spectrum.

      I guess women need to figure out if guys have had sex fall into their lap, or whether they’ve gone out hunting for pussy. And even if it’s the former, did it go to his head and turn him into a douche?

      If we’re filtering, it seems to me it’s safer to avoid high N, period. Not that those guys will notice. They’ll always have options, including for monogamy.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW

    But the unrestricted male has a much higher rate of divorce and infidelity.

    Yes, everybody’s perfectly willing to accept this premise WRT women. And rightly so. But I’ve observed that when the truth hurts, denial tends to follow. Or the standard rejoinder: “I haven’t seen it happen.” Which just reinforces the old adage: The plural of anecdote is not data.

  • Anacaona

    -Too co-dependent on her friends.
    This one depends on the kind of friend,IMO. Some people sadly have co-dependent personalities if she is not depending on friends,she will depend on her family, the Kardashians or you. If her friends are restricted girls with a good head in their shoulders you want her to continue to have them around as a second life of defense against any temptation,YMMV.

  • angelguy

    “Some people sadly have co-dependent personalities if she is not depending on friends,she will depend on her family, the Kardashians or you. If her friends are restricted girls with a good head in their shoulders you want her to continue to have them around as a second life of defense against any temptation,YMMV.”

    @Ana

    This is one that is on shaky ground. Some women still live with their parents, so that is something to cross off my list.
    When family are too involved, they can dictate the relationship, which is troublesome.

    As far as restricted girls, that can be both good and bad. Restricted in terms of sex, but dating up. I find often a mates girlfriends are usually the one doing the evaluation on one self.
    You may not even be sleeping with them, and they will still find reasons to break up with you, even if there is nothing wrong.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    I’d say I don’t have a greatest hits problem. The best sex was with the gf I loved. Next best sex was with a gf I liked a lot. Then there was one who I was really infatuated and wanting to date but it didn’t work out. Those are the 3 most memorable partners and they were all achieved in the context of having or seeking an LTR. A lot of the more casual N’s were good and enjoyable (and a few weren’t) but they mostly blend together and aren’t this highlight reel going through my head.

    For me (and I can only speak for me) a lot of that hunger for experiencing different women has been satiated and it’s more like I know that I’m not missing that much because for me sex in a loving reln is much better than casual.

    But I’m not an incurable promiscuous who always needs new pussy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I was thinking of the claim made earlier that lots of men of good character with high N would not cheat on their SO. I believe your name was mentioned. And I’m sure that’s true. I think, though, that there’s a difference between a guy who’s always tempted and doesn’t act out, vs. a guy who really isn’t very tempted. I know that men reside on a spectrum wrt this – the sociosexuality spectrum.

      Men care very much about sexual history because they believe it predicts future behavior. And they are generally less threatened by past emotional investment. Women are the opposite. Lots of studies have shown that men are more wounded by physical infidelity than emotional infidelity, while women, again, are the opposite.

      But that doesn’t mean that a man wouldn’t be devastated by the woman he loves having an emotional affair, or that women aren’t devastated when a guy cheats to have meaningless sex. Both of those outcomes are still really, really bad.

      It makes sense to me that while men care more about N, they still care about a woman’s potential feelings for some other man, either past or present. While women care more about who a man has been deeply in love with, they still care about his sexual history and attitudes. Where the line gets drawn varies a lot by individual, as we’ve seen here at HUS. But every person has their limit.

      The small subset of women who think “the higher, the better” re male N are executing a short-term mating strategy.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @Susan

    I agree that a man who isn’t even tempted is a safer bet than a man who is tempted. I just think it is also important to realize that not all low-N’s will be faithful nor all high-N’s will cheat, though I agree with the general trend of higher-N people being more likely to cheat.

    My main point was to provide a counter example to Zach of a high-N man who isn’t affected by the highlight reel.

  • JP

    “Men care very much about sexual history because they believe it predicts future behavior. And they are generally less threatened by past emotional investment. Women are the opposite.”

    What in the world is “emotional investment”?

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @JP

    Feelings of love and attachment.

  • JP

    “@JP

    Feelings of love and attachment.”

    I don’t think “emotional investment” is a good word. Makes it sound like a savings account or something.

    It’s the creation of the specific emotional link, then.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/ HanSolo

    @JP

    Use your imagination. You invest your emotions in someone that you love. Doesn’t need to just be some cold and calculating financial term.

  • Anacaona

    When family are too involved, they can dictate the relationship, which is troublesome.
    Again if she has a codependent personality she will find someone to latch onto. Better a good herd or a strong family with values than Snooki, YMMV.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW

    I have watched a couple of boys in the neighborhood grow up into extraordinarily good looking young men. They have had constant opportunities for casual sex, and they have availed themselves of some of those opportunities. Yet I still think they’re good guys.

    You’ve mentioned this before in other discussions… just out of curiosity: any idea what quality of women jumped into their laps? Were these “greasy burger” types as mentioned earlier? Or were they women the guys’ would’ve seriously considered for relationships, prior to diddling + DQ’ing + disengaging?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You’ve mentioned this before in other discussions… just out of curiosity: any idea what quality of women jumped into their laps? Were these “greasy burger” types as mentioned earlier? Or were they women the guys’ would’ve seriously considered for relationships, prior to diddling + DQ’ing + disengaging?

      I was wondering if someone would ask this. The women who aggressively sought sex with these boys were known locally as “town bikes.” Everyone gets a ride. Because in fact, they had sex with guys of a range of SMV – but their first choice, and most frequent partners, were the high SMV guys.

  • Angelguy

    “Better a good herd or a strong family with values than Snooki, YMMV”

    @Ana

    Maybe so. Then, it comes down to also knowing what circle of people she is around.
    Sad but True.
    V

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    The women who aggressively sought sex with these boys were known locally as “town bikes.”

    So, not the kind of girl Mom would like to see brought home?

    Well, there’s no accounting for the taste of young, good-looking guys. Can’t really relate, even though average (like me) or unattractive guys are sadly expected to jump on that bike whenever the option is made available. Even questionable N = success, in the eyes of other men that is.

    Sounds like UMC Massacheusetts has a little Peyton Place in it. In the old days, that would’ve been akin to visiting the local town prostitute. I wonder what the preselection effect would be in the eyes of their female SMP equivalents? Does dropping one’s sexual standards like that mean + attractive + relationship points?

  • angelguy

    “I wonder what the preselection effect would be in the eyes of their female SMP equivalents? Does dropping one’s sexual standards like that mean + attractive + relationship points?”

    @MM

    Probably not the type of guy, they would bring home to meet their Dad.
    I can see him pulling out the shot gun now. lol.

  • Chant

    Morpheus,

    I very much agree with you on your thoughts regarding higher partner count, especially in post 462. Like you, i most certainly do not condone with the idea that more experienced men or alphas are not capable of emotional intimacy or staying faithful. As much as one would be tempted to do so, reducing such complex phenomenon as cheating only to one or two factors, is to put lightly – inaccurate.

    And if i may say so, you are an excellent example of a man with worth who has a great grasp of monogamous relationship.

    HanSolo,

    I too have heard from my more experienced male friends that mostly the greatest sexual experience have been with the ones who they had strongest feelings for. But that does not mean that they dont remember fondly the sexual shenanigans they got themselves into… and that includes the physical parameters of the ladies of the past. As i have understood most men constantly assess women’s assets and compare the current against what he had in the past or what he sees in his surroundings.

    I have said it already, and i will say it again – i am not afraid of sexual alphas who have exercised that part of themselves. I am drawn to the masculine. It is such wonder and i am blessed to be able to enjoy it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Like you, i most certainly do not condone with the idea that more experienced men or alphas are not capable of emotional intimacy or staying faithful. As much as one would be tempted to do so, reducing such complex phenomenon as cheating only to one or two factors, is to put lightly – inaccurate.

      And if i may say so, you are an excellent example of a man with worth who has a great grasp of monogamous relationship.

      …I have said it already, and i will say it again – i am not afraid of sexual alphas who have exercised that part of themselves. I am drawn to the masculine. It is such wonder and i am blessed to be able to enjoy it.

      Hilarious commentary from Chant. It’s clear that Chant is being written by a male. The question is, Which one? It’s clearly a highly unrestricted male – perhaps Mike C/Morpheus himself?

  • Sox

    Apologies in advance if I’m repeating anything that’s already been said.

    I don’t think that self-awareness is the same as self-doubt. One can take on new projects, learn new skills, get involved in the community, or any number of things without being plagued by self-doubt.

    However, you make a good point. Douchebaggery is an attractor for some women. Narcissists do better getting phone numbers from strangers than non-narcissists do. Of course, they’re strictly STR material, which is the point of the post.

    Zero self-doubt = zero relationship potential.

    Introspection and self awareness usually leads to a more realistic view of one’s self in the world and in relation to others…this unfortunately takes a toll on most people’s self confidence.

    Non-introspective types get to live in blissful ignorance with irrational levels of self confidence. And that’s what attractive in our culture nowadays.

    This only applies to the early stages though…the latter have a harder time maintaining the relationships they start.

    Also, introspective types who DO exhibit those levels of confidence often come across as being even more arrogant and pompous, for whatever reason.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sox

      Introspection and self awareness usually leads to a more realistic view of one’s self in the world and in relation to others…this unfortunately takes a toll on most people’s self confidence.

      Non-introspective types get to live in blissful ignorance with irrational levels of self confidence. And that’s what attractive in our culture nowadays.

      This only applies to the early stages though…the latter have a harder time maintaining the relationships they start.

      Hey, it’s great to see you! I love it when past readers come back and visit. I hope all is well.

      I’d give you three +1s for this comment – each statement is true, and the part about what we value in our culture is the most important, IMO. We just keep lowering the bar, and this is disastrous for mating.

  • Sox

    Argh it’s been so long, I forgot how to quote on here. Can you help me out Susan? :)

  • Sox

    Thanks Susan! I’m about to move from S TX back up to the DC Metro area, I’ve had an interesting time in the deep south the last couple of years.

    Anyway, the whole thing makes me think of the role confidence levels play in daily life. They say that part of the reason fighter pilots are so cocky is because they actually have to be to be successful at their job. Every time they fly they have to believe they’re the best out there, because there’s so little room for self doubt. So they select for that when choosing pilots and cultivate it in their training, along with the actual flying and whatnot.

    And then you look at religion. I’ve never been too religious. What I think is amazing is what people can accomplish though, when operating on faith. There’s something to be said for that, and I don’t think it’s too much different emotionally than someone who’s acting with irrationally high levels of self confidence for other reasons.

    I think that’s all relevant when you’re talking about introspective types because the conclusions we draw and the things we tell ourselves have such a huge impact on who we are.

    As far as that goes in the dating world…I find that you really have to show that side in moderation with almost everyone, and can only open up once you’ve established your extrovert cred. Depending on the type of person you’re looking for of course.