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  • Infidelity
  • Lokland

    “The imbalance of power in the primary relationship has been associated with infidelity. Edwards and Booth (1976) found that wives who reported that they “get their way” more often during disagreements were also more likely to have extramarital sexual involvements.”

    IOW

    Agreeableness = unfaithful wife
    Dread game = faithful wife

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Agreeableness = unfaithful wife
      Dread game = faithful wife

      You are remarkably consistent in your “glass half empty” perspective.

  • Escoffier

    Or:

    Wimpiness and supplication = unfaithful wife
    Benevolent dominance = faithful wife

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Or:

      Wimpiness and supplication = unfaithful wife
      Benevolent dominance = faithful wife

      That’s more like it.

  • Abbot

    “The previous number of sexual partners is highly predictive.”
    “Women do not like being the dominant partner.”

    Avoid promiscuous feminists. Done.

    .

  • Angelguy

    “Only 12% of cheating men said their mistress was more physically attractive than their wife.”

    In other words, a man doesn’t stray because he thinks he’ll get better sex with a better-looking body. “In most cases, he’s cheating to fill an emotional void. He feels a connection with the other woman, and sex comes along for the ride.

    This is something attractive wives should look at.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/ HanSolo

    The part about college males being more likely to have cheating sex is interesting. Also interesting how higher N is correlated with higher rate of cheating.

    That sort of matches with a topic I just wrote a post, of how the best looking young men (average age of ~21.5) have higher N and are 2x more likely than the best-looking women to claim they’re in a sex-only relationship. So in many cases, the hot men think they’re just having sex while the hot women think they’re in a relationship. This effect was true for the overall male and female populations but more pronounced the hotter the man.

    Another important part is to realize that more young women than men think they’re in an exclusive dating relationship.

    How does this relate to cheating?

    Men that think that it’s sex-only are probably more likely to have other sex partners because in their mind they’re not exclusively dating. In their minds it probably wouldn’t be considered cheating, whereas for the women, it would be perceived as being cheated on since they were thinking they were dating exclusively while the men that didn’t share that view.

    Women need to make sure they really know that the man thinks the same way about their exclusive relationship as they do. And men do to, although the numbers in the study show it’s more men thinking it’s sex only.

    http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Women need to make sure they really know that the man thinks the same way about their exclusive relationship as they do. And men do to, although the numbers in the study show it’s more men thinking it’s sex only.

      I’m not sure what study you are referring to here. The one I cite in the post is Predictors of young dating adults’ inclination to engage in extradyadic sexual activities: A multi-perspective study. Sorry no link, I grabbed it as a PDF a while back.

      In this study, college students were required to be in a committed dating relationship that was sexual. Mean duration of relationship was 17 months. The first questionnaire explored how explicit the agreement was to be exclusive, and all subjects with non-explicit agreements were omitted from the results.

      In any case, the results reflect the subjects admission of cheating as an “extradyadic” activity outside the bounds of their relationships.

  • Abbot

    “hot men think they’re just having sex while the hot women think they’re in a relationship”

    Basically, that is harem mentality.

    .

  • Angelguy

    “The imbalance of power in the primary relationship has been associated with infidelity. Edwards and Booth (1976) found that wives who reported that they “get their way” more often during disagreements were also more likely to have extramarital sexual involvements”

    Now that there are more women working and in power positions, does one think there might be more divorce to follow with Men that make less than them?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Angelguy

      Now that there are more women working and in power positions, does one think there might be more divorce to follow with Men that make less than them?

      It will be interesting to see. I think there will be more unhappy wives, but I don’t know if it will translate to more divorce, as educated double-income couples have financial incentives to remain together. My guess is that there will be more female infidelity, as noted in the most recent research.

  • Abbot

    “…there might be more divorce to follow with Men that make less..”

    More like no marriage at all. For those women.

    .

  • Pericles

    “Only 12% of cheating men said their mistress was more physically attractive than their wife.”

    Probably the most counterintuitive, and interesting, of the statistics provided. The rest seem fairly conventional:

    1. Conscientiousness (and related behaviors) decreases the likelyhood of cheating
    2. Opportuity to meet others (i.e. working outside the home, especially in executive positions) increases the likelyhood
    3. Being the dominant partner increases the likelyhood (more so for women)
    4. Being black increases the likelyhood

    Nothing unexpected, but still an interesting read.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pericles

      “Only 12% of cheating men said their mistress was more physically attractive than their wife.”

      Probably the most counterintuitive, and interesting, of the statistics provided.

      Yes it is. I was also quite surprised to learn that only 8% of cheating men say they did it for the sex. That runs counter to the claims here by males that sexual variety is the constant temptation in marriage.

  • Sai

    …Seeing all the factors laid out this way makes me realize more of them apply to me than I thought.
    I better talk EVERYTHING out before getting married, and once the marriage gets to year 3 or so, I better stock up on DVDs and maybe prepare to see a marriage counselor (lol, thinking way ahead). I don’t wanna be a ho.
    Susan, thanks for arranging everything so plainly.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Pagination(?) has disappeared and its back to newer/older comment listings.
    Perhaps I’m just lucky?

    @Esc/Per

    “1. Conscientiousness (and related behaviors) decreases the likelyhood of cheating”

    “Wimpiness and supplication = unfaithful wife
    Benevolent dominance = faithful wife”

    This is one of those situation where most people think it through halfway and stop there.

    Choosing a partner who is agreeable/conscientious reduces the likelihood that the chooser will be cheated on.

    It actually doesn’t comment on whether or not the agreeable/conscientious one will be cheated upon, which according to Sue’s data might actually be true.

    Being agreeable/conscientious might make it more likely that (a man) will be cheated upon but choosing a partner who is Agree-Con. will reduce that chance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Pagination(?) has disappeared and its back to newer/older comment listings.
      Perhaps I’m just lucky?

      Yeah, a software update killed my customizations. Will restore today.

  • Escoffier

    I still don’t see why the point quoted inevitably reduces to “dread.”

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/ HanSolo

    The only thing we have to dread is dread itself. :D

  • Passer_By

    “In other words, a man doesn’t stray because he thinks he’ll get better sex with a better-looking body. “In most cases, he’s cheating to fill an emotional void. He feels a connection with the other woman, and sex comes along for the ride.” ”

    If by “emotional void” they really mean a “constant unmet desire for sexual variety and harem building,” then yeah, ok.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If by “emotional void” they really mean a “constant unmet desire for sexual variety and harem building,” then yeah, ok.

      Sounds like you align with the 8%. :)

      Or maybe most men successfully withstand the temptation?

      Maybe men cheat with women less attractive than their wives because lower value women are the ones willing to cheat with a married man. The same dynamic as ONSs – you’ve got to lower your standards to create the opportunity to cheat?

      I would imagine that the 8% who cheat strictly for sex are in the 34% who feel no guilt afterwards.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Half of men cheat by kissing?!!!!! WHAT IN THE FUCK?!
    One in three women are going to “lightly” cheat?????

    BRING ME MY PITCHFORK, I GOT SOME STABBING TO DO

    In case you couldn’t tell, those numbers upset me

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW
    Well done, all around.

    When emotional affairs or sexual intimacy without intercourse are included, the number jumps to 45%.

    Weiner Effect = taking this common occurrence (crushes included?) to a high profile, pathologically narcissistic level…

  • Lokland

    @MM

    “Weiner Effect = taking this common occurrence (crushes included?) to a high profile, pathologically narcissistic level…”

    ?

    Are you suggesting that because a behavior is common it is therefore morally acceptable?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “You are remarkably consistent in your “glass half empty” perspective.”

    Glasses come in a range of fullnesses (should be a word).
    Some people are empty, others are full and all values in between.

    I’m just voicing the less than half section.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    Are you suggesting that because a behavior is common it is therefore morally acceptable? (insert metaphor: fishing expedition)

    No, though you seem to be suggesting that that was what I was suggesting.

    I made no mention of morality; my observation was matter-of-fact.

  • JP

    “Maybe men cheat with women less attractive than their wives because lower value women are the ones willing to cheat with a married man. The same dynamic as ONSs – you’ve got to lower your standards to create the opportunity to cheat?”

    I think that men also take the *less attractive prostitute*.

    Seriously.

    I’m not looking this one up, but I think it’s out there.

  • JP

    “I think there will be more unhappy wives, but I don’t know if it will translate to more divorce, as educated double-income couples have financial incentives to remain together. My guess is that there will be more female infidelity, as noted in the most recent research.”

    So the outcome is going to be more *injured* wives.

    Great.

  • Anne

    Susan, in regards to the attractiveness of mistresses there has to more to it than just “what’s available”. Perhaps some men will take anything they can when they cheat, but men who have great options seem to go for the unattractive ones as well?
    Tiger Woods would perhaps not find a woman like his wife for an affair, but I’m sure he could do better than the girls he slept with! At least pay for a good looking, high end escort. They weren’t just unattractive, they were filthy looking. It seems as if some men *want* them to be that way. A friend of mine was cheated on by her fiance, and she found pictures of the girl – she was overweight and unattractive. He’s rich and charismatic.
    I’d be curious to know what men think of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Tiger Woods would perhaps not find a woman like his wife for an affair, but I’m sure he could do better than the girls he slept with! At least pay for a good looking, high end escort. They weren’t just unattractive, they were filthy looking. It seems as if some men *want* them to be that way.

      I’ve noticed this too. Bill Clinton had affairs with some not very attractive women (though they were obviously far more attractive than his wife). I have noticed that mistresses often look very trashy – like strippers. My guess is that the men enjoy the status differential, and it’s also quite an “eff you” to the wife.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Han, re: differing views on sexual exclusivity, The author of “The Monogamy Gap” interviewed 120 college men for his study (60 of them were U.S. soccer players and thus the results may be more relevant for an analysis of the higher-SMV cohort).

    To get around the different definitions problem (which he admits is a real problem in this type of research), he says:

    “I define ‘cheating’ as performing any sexual activity that would lead one’s partner to feel that he had violated the implicit or explicit rules of their monogamous relationship. In other words, I don’t use the participants’ definitions of cheating (which they might tweak to avoid feeling guilty); I use their partners’ notions of cheating…I only included men who have cheated on their current or most recent partner. In other words, this statistic does not reflect men who ‘have ever’ cheated; it reflects the percentage of men who have cheated on their current partner.

    Using his study constraints, he finds a cheating incidence of about 78%. He says that “half of my sample is comprised of men who play a team sport, a demographic which are likely to have elevated rates of cheating.” Also in contrast to some other studies, he “shows that university men normally cheat because they want or ‘need’ recreational sex, not because they seek an emotional affair.”

    The author blames a cognitive dissonance that results when a man simultaneously loves his partner and wants to fuck someone else. One guy says something like “at least with cheating there is an attempt at monogamy”. Cheating is one of several pressure-relief valves that may be employed to attempt to lower the dissonance.

    I would imagine that the emotional component to a married man’s cheating behavior is probably higher than that of a single college student’s cheating behavior, and this book really doesn’t even attempt to address that possibility because it focuses exclusively on males age 18-22 from U.S. and British universities.

    The study also doesn’t address wild differentials in opportunity; no comparison is made between a relationship guy who resists the aggressive sexual advances of a campus Megan Fox alpha femme fatale and a relationship guy who never gets hit on by other women—both would be considered equal non-cheaters under these parameters. That’s a wild weakness in these studies, IMHO, because it doesn’t show how realized cheating rates vary with opportunities to cheat.

    Another issue is that, from an evo psych perspective, sexual promiscuity by high-status male social primates would be expected unless (violently)-enforced cultural norms created a “1 man, 1 sexual opportunity” effect in order to lower the social tension that can result when a small % of men get all the great sex. Indeed, gaining access to a continuous parade of exciting mating opportunities would normally be the whole adaptive point of aggressive status-striving behavior among males. If the link between striving and reproductive opportunities was severed, distorted, or perverted in some ways, many men would take whatever the alternative path to sexual amusement was now available.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Using his study constraints, he finds a cheating incidence of about 78%. He says that “half of my sample is comprised of men who play a team sport, a demographic which are likely to have elevated rates of cheating.”

      Naturally. High Testosterone + Coddled Since Childhood = Agentic Behavior

      I would also point out that Athlete /= Handsome. A handsome athlete has very high SMV to be sure, but an athlete who is not good-looking does not.

      Another issue is that, from an evo psych perspective, sexual promiscuity by high-status male social primates would be expected unless (violently)-enforced cultural norms created a “1 man, 1 sexual opportunity” effect in order to lower the social tension that can result when a small % of men get all the great sex.

      You’re focusing on Sexual Strategies Theory, which is not the only perspective in evo psych. I’ll be writing a post about this soon – since SST was posited 20 years ago, many studies have failed to validate it.

  • JP

    “Another issue is that, from an evo psych perspective, sexual promiscuity by high-status male social primates would be expected unless (violently)-enforced cultural norms created a “1 man, 1 sexual opportunity” effect in order to lower the social tension that can result when a small % of men get all the great sex. Indeed, gaining access to a continuous parade of exciting mating opportunities would normally be the whole adaptive point of aggressive status-striving behavior among males. If the link between striving and reproductive opportunities was severed, distorted, or perverted in some ways, many men would take whatever the alternative path to sexual amusement was now available.”

    If we looked at both involution and evolution, I think that we would make much more progress here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      If we looked at both involution and evolution, I think that we would make much more progress here.

      Please expand on this!

  • Escoffier

    RE: guilt, man, if I ever did this, the guilt would be Raskolnikov-like. Another reason to behave.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      RE: guilt, man, if I ever did this, the guilt would be Raskolnikov-like. Another reason to behave.

      Me too. I get an upset stomach just thinking about it.

  • Rgoltn

    As a 46 yr. old MWM of 18+ years, 21+ with wife total, I have seen infidelity kill many a marriage. Studies like to group in buckets and/or easily characterize trends; women seek emotional connections, men seek sexual gratification etc. I think it is both for each sex. I believe that infidelity happens for both men and women due to two basic issues: loss of attraction and connection between partners.

    Every day you have to connect with your partner and keep them interested. This is a two-way road. If you stop becoming attracted to your spouse or visa versa, eventually infidelity will occur. It sounds a bit shallow, but it is a fact. Marriage is a contract of exclusivity. You agree to only have sex with one another and share your resources together in order to raise a family etc. If your spouse “lets themselves go” and attraction is lost, it is upsetting.

    Why?

    You did not ‘sign up for that’ when you got married. Hubby was a great looking guy with a good job and now he is a mediocre middle-mgr. and gained 40 lbs. or wifey was hot with a killer bod and good job and after kid#2, she stopped caring and became a ‘quitter.’ Worse, if one of the partners stops wanting to have sex, that is a fast track to infidelity and/or divorce.

    Many of my divorced guy friends loved their wives. However, they became secondary citizens in their homes. They were ‘paychecks’ to wives who put themselves and the kids first. Sex dropped through the floor and eventually, my buddies stopped trying. When that happened, they looked elsewhere for validation. Two guys I know had affairs with women who were not as good looking as their wives. Huh? The fact is that they made my buddies feel attractive. The women thought they were ‘hot;’ hot enough to have sex with and go after.

    My friends lost the basic connections to their wives; they were drifting through life as secondary characters in their wives overly controlled, tasked and ‘busy’ lives. I believe the majority of divorces happen because of these types of situations. People stop trying and take each other for granted. Yes, there are men AND women who have lots of affairs and hurt their spouses. They should’ve never been married in the first place. I think they are the minority.

    I believe that the majority of people in the ‘middle of the bell curve’ who have affairs are searching for connection; physical and emotional. They want to feel / be attractive to someone. If their spouse does give it to them, eventually they look elsewhere for it. Yes, women infidelity may be on the rise due to changes in their economics. However, if the attraction to their husbands is still strong, the probability of an affair is low.

    When they say ‘marriage requires work,’ what they mean is that staying attracted to your spouse and keeping your connection strong requires work. Marriage is quite easy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I believe that the majority of people in the ‘middle of the bell curve’ who have affairs are searching for connection; physical and emotional. They want to feel / be attractive to someone. If their spouse does give it to them, eventually they look elsewhere for it. Yes, women infidelity may be on the rise due to changes in their economics. However, if the attraction to their husbands is still strong, the probability of an affair is low.

      When they say ‘marriage requires work,’ what they mean is that staying attracted to your spouse and keeping your connection strong requires work. Marriage is quite easy.

      +1

  • Escoffier

    “Maybe men cheat with women less attractive than their wives because lower value women are the ones willing to cheat with a married man.”

    Never thought about this, but now that you say it, it seems right.

  • JP

    “RE: guilt, man, if I ever did this, the guilt would be Raskolnikov-like. Another reason to behave.”

    I’m pretty sure that I have what is characterized here as a strong impuse toward pair bonding.

    So, guilt wouldn’t be my primary problem.

    The problem would be that it would result in an immediate (psychological) doorslam of my wife.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The problem would be that it would result in an immediate (psychological) doorslam of my wife.

      Yes, I am definitely in the half who says infidelity = Game Over. I’d get the best pit bull divorce lawyer I could find.

  • JP

    “Two guys I know had affairs with women who were not as good looking as their wives. Huh? The fact is that they made my buddies feel attractive.”

    This makes very little sense to me.

    Unless these guys never had the “women you don’t want flinging themselves at you” problem earlier in life.

    I got finished with that game in college. Waste of my time.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Re: Tiger. He’s an interesting psychological study because he had a pretty alpha dad (former Special Forces operator) and he has apparently had a lifelong fascination with knife-in-teeth derring-do; according to his former coach he was at one time actively looking at dropping out of the PGA tour to pursue SEAL training.

    The top strippers and porn stars tend to exaggerate certain key sexual-response triggers in men; a process not unlike “survival of the fittest” has selected them, dressed them, and in most cases surgically modified them to have this effect. As porn is at its core a function of profitability, the women who become porn stars tend to reflect what really sells when a man wants to get off. Most men realize that this does not make them loyal candidates to wife up; indeed, a staple of most porn these days is the superhot MILF who serially cheats on her husband.

    I think the business model for porn has changed with the complete dominance of internet stuff and free sites, and now a lot of the women who are involved in the industry are using the porn exposure to set up escort work that is their real income source.

    Not to name-drop pretentiously, but I have seen Elin Nordegren in a classroom environment and she is indeed strikingly pretty. In a ball cap and tennis skirt and flats she can very much look like a typical college student. I think that Tiger clearly has a wholesome, almost-Wagnerian physical type—sort of a female elf from “Lord of the Rings”—that he pursues for LTR considerations, but his STR appetites may be more flexible and adventurous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that Tiger clearly has a wholesome, almost-Wagnerian physical type—sort of a female elf from “Lord of the Rings”—that he pursues for LTR considerations, but his STR appetites may be more flexible and adventurous.

      What a great opportunity to point out that many women went weak in the knees for this:

      ob

  • Escoffier

    “according to his former coach he was at one time actively looking at dropping out of the PGA tour to pursue SEAL training.”

    I was with some friends this weekend, real golf nuts, and they could not stop talking about the British Open and debating Tiger, etc. I mentioned this fact, and also the corruptive effect of hanging around with Michael Jordan, and both of them knew nothing about either, despite paying way more attention to golf than I do.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, re: sexual strategies. A colleague and I have been positing that there is probably a tacit or explicit consideration of sexual “liquidity” effects (I realize that’s perhaps an unfortunate word!) going on in aggressive male status-striving.

    For example, a man who gains status through a Lamborghini purchase may be operating with some knowledge that a Lamborghini is highly liquid as a sexual currency; you can readily use it to signal, obtain sex, etc. Other forms of status may have a much more convoluted conversion process attached. Different, specific striving and ambition targets may be associated with different levels of sexual liquidity, and possibly with resulting infidelity rates and so on.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @BB

    I think that Tiger clearly has a wholesome, almost-Wagnerian physical type that he pursues for LTR considerations.

    Is this still the case? Personality-wise, he seems to have traded up, or down, depending on one’s opinion. See my stream of consciousness WRT his latest lady friend here (near the bottom):

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/03/14/relationshipstrategies/male-quality-control/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Big step down, IMO:

      lv

  • Angelguy

    ” I have noticed that mistresses often look very trashy – like strippers. My guess is that the men enjoy the status differential, and it’s also quite an “eff you” to the wife.”

    @Susan

    Do you think it would be the same for Women who cheat? That the person they cheat on will be of lower value?

    Make me wonder Susan, if it is the case of one tired of the same “type” of person.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do you think it would be the same for Women who cheat? That the person they cheat on will be of lower value?

      Make me wonder Susan, if it is the case of one tired of the same “type” of person.

      Well, female hypergamy says that women will cheat with a man of higher value, but of course a woman’s definition of value is very individual. For example, a woman who is married to an emotionally withdrawn man may cheat with someone with high EQ. IOW, people cheat with someone who offers what they perceive they lack, which can be anything from emotional intimacy to sexual variety.

  • Cooper

    “The previous number of sexual partners is also highly predictive for men:”

    Low N – woot woot !

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Low N – woot woot !

      Haha, good to see you Cooper!

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  • Hope

    Susan, I have to admit, the first time I saw Legolas, I thought it may have been a female. I think I was around 18 or so, and I was thinking, this guy/girl is very pretty.

    I also think Elin is incredibly gorgeous, but she is walking proof that beautiful women get cheated on as well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also think Elin is incredibly gorgeous, but she is walking proof that beautiful women get cheated on as well.

      My guess is that they get cheated on more than anyone else, because they are more likely to marry men who have the most opportunities to cheat. “Quality of relationship alternatives” is a primary reason for cheating.

  • Angelguy

    “a woman’s definition of value is very individual.”

    @Susan

    So is a man’s. I have noticed the examples of infidelity cite Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods. Both men in the spotlight, under high pressure. With high level professions, I can imagine the men wanting to release some of that stress.
    If they are married, they probably aren’t getting it from their wives, especially if they have children. I have heard of Wives looking the other way, just because, they just “didn’t want to be bothered”. I am sure when a woman has to take care of children, have a career, sex is the last thing she wants before going to bed.

    With Facebook, emotional cheating without sex has become more common.(Thanks Zuckerberg). Websites like Ashley Madison.com have become tools for Infidellity, making it easier to cheat and harder to stay connected to people.

  • Angelguy

    “I also think Elin is incredibly gorgeous, but she is walking proof that beautiful women get cheated on as well.”

    @Hope
    Ellin is gorgeous, no doubt about it. But I wonder how much “maintenance” she is. She married another rich man(Billionaire), so I can imagine how high she must see her SMV.

    If Tiger cheated on her with less attractive women, it was probably because she wasn’t meeting his drive.
    Some people while attractive, might not be so wonderful in the bedroom.

  • BuenaVista

    Vonn can probably bench 200 and squat 400 and she’s fearless. Maybe Tiger was ready to be thrown around a bit.

    Also, she’s lightly stated that she will never remarry. (Maybe she’s Gaming him.) So I would certainly put her in the magic quadrant, though I’m probably not strong enough for her and I’ve never dated anyone whose thighs are twice the size of my own.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Vonn can probably bench 200 and squat 400 and she’s fearless. Maybe Tiger was ready to be thrown around a bit.

      She looked awesome in Sports Ill. swimsuit a few years ago, but either it was heavily photoshopped or she can added some libs.

  • Angelguy
  • Anne

    The idea that some men cheat with trashy women to “stick it to their wives” is depressing. I thought there was some guilt and perhaps remorse involved, and not hatred towards their partner :(
    In Tiger’s case, I thought it might have been a Madonna/Whore kind of thing. Elin is beautiful and always elegant and well groomed and comes across as a nice woman as well, and perhaps he can only bring out his sexuality with someone who has a porn star look, opposite of his wife – with the bad skin, too much makeup, “come hit it” look etc. I definitely think it is a point for some men for women to look filthy.
    It’s perfectly possible that there were problems and that Elin wasn’t an amazing wife, but she does not come across as entitled or bitchy. She was worried about being labeled a golddigger when she started dating him, and she’s kept a low profile until she was (against her will) exposed to the media after the affair. She has children with him as well. As a fellow Scandinavian I’ll always defend her :) , but I think it’s unfair for people to assume she was a trophy wife or someone cold and distant, which I know is a stereotype.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      I’m with you re Elin. Ridiculous to scapegoat the victim.

  • Anacaona

    Tiger Woods would perhaps not find a woman like his wife for an affair, but I’m sure he could do better than the girls he slept with! At least pay for a good looking, high end escort. They weren’t just unattractive, they were filthy looking. It seems as if some men *want* them to be that way. A friend of mine was cheated on by her fiance, and she found pictures of the girl – she was overweight and unattractive. He’s rich and charismatic.
    I’d be curious to know what men think of it.

    According to my cheating friends they like to pick uglier women because a) they don’t want to trade their wife so is a way to keep the other woman for sex only and not be tempted to move on with her and b) because they feel that if they are too rough with their wives they would hurt her and she can recent and stop having sex with them or they could be seriously harmed hurting some ‘ugly bitch’ is not a problem for them.

    RE: guilt, man, if I ever did this, the guilt would be Raskolnikov-like. Another reason to behave.
    I’m pretty sure I would live in streets to eat leaves and trash as self imposed punishment. If I behaved like an animal I deserve to live like one sort of logic. Yeah I’m my own worst judge. :p

    Bill Clinton had affairs with some not very attractive women (though they were obviously far more attractive than his wife)
    Pre politics Hillary Clinton was not ugly IMO. http://www.cracked.com/blog/13-photos-that-shatter-your-image-famous-people-part-2/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      She was slim! I never knew.

      I was thinking more of this look. To be fair, he wasn’t very attractive either:

      hc

  • BuenaVista

    Anne: “The idea that some men cheat with trashy women to “stick it to their wives” is depressing.”

    I would assert that women are far more likely to fuck around if the mission is to humiliate the spouse. It’s a great way to do that. We use the term ‘cuckold’ far more frequently to describe the male.

    The women I know who have cheated do so with men to make a point; then they move on, post-separation, in search of the next LTR.

    My impressions may be completely skewed, however, because (and no woman has ever believed this) I’ve never heard — once — any of my friends or acquaintances run down his spouse. Not once. (I know lots of guys who’ve had affairs or do sport-fucking.) But adultery is an excellent tool if the objective is emasculation. It’s a great way to punctuate (with an exclamation point!) the impending divorce. All of the women I know who committed adultery in advance of divorce told their friends, so that the social shaming of the guy could be completed. It makes book club so much more entertaining, I suspect.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve never heard — once — any of my friends or acquaintances run down his spouse. Not once.

      I have seen it happen at least a dozen times while the spouse was standing right there.

  • Anacaona

    Well, female hypergamy says that women will cheat with a man of higher value, but of course a woman’s definition of value is very individual. For example, a woman who is married to an emotionally withdrawn man may cheat with someone with high EQ. IOW, people cheat with someone who offers what they perceive they lack, which can be anything from emotional intimacy to sexual variety.
    Oh I got a story for this. There was this co-worker of my mom really beautiful that cheated on her husband with not only an ugly bad skin guy but a filthy looking guy with yellow teeth full of plaque! My mom and I couldn’t believe this beauty will lose her kids, houses and lots of money (her wealthy husband divorced her) for that. But he was very sexually aggressive and explicitly volunteered what kind of things he would do to his wife among all the female colleagues and she was the one that took the bait. Some people are willing to pass everything in order to get their mojo going I think :p

  • Angelguy

    “because they feel that if they are too rough with their wives they would hurt her and she can recent and stop having sex with them or they could be seriously harmed hurting some ‘ugly bitch’ is not a problem for them.”

    I think there is also the feeling of shame in Men when they ask their spouse for certain things in the bedroom. They feel they might be ridiculed for it.
    With the “trashy” women, they don’t feel a need to hide this.

    I was watching Mad Men last night, and there was a scene with Joan Holloway when she is in a hotel room with a married man. The married man wants to come out about the relationship. Joan tells him “I know about men the way you know about advertising. The sneaking around is your favourite part.”

    I think the fact that people “sneak” around to have affairs is a way to add excitement to their lives, something the SO can’t give them.

  • Anacaona

    I think there is also the feeling of shame in Men when they ask their spouse for certain things in the bedroom. They feel they might be ridiculed for it.
    With the “trashy” women, they don’t feel a need to hide this.

    This were Dominican men. There is not shaming males in my country just preferences.

  • Angelguy

    “But adultery is an excellent tool if the objective is emasculation. It’s a great way to punctuate (with an exclamation point!) the impending divorce.”

    @BV

    Yeah, I can see that. Adultery is the ultimate emasculation tool for a Woman.
    The rise in Divorce parties in recent years, seem to illustrate this.

    With divorce, it seems to be treated like a “cashing out” sort of attitude. At least with some that don’t have children.

  • Angelguy

    “This were Dominican men. There is not shaming males in my country just preferences.”

    @Ana

    Ok, so that makes a difference then. I was just presuming we were talking about North American males.
    The culture is different in the Dominican.

  • Anne

    “I think there is also the feeling of shame in Men when they ask their spouse for certain things in the bedroom. They feel they might be ridiculed for it.”

    If anyone feel that they might be ‘ridiculed’ by their own spouse, they’re in a bad marriage. Who makes fun of their own partner? I think most women are aware of what most men watch in porn (even if we don’t love watching it ourselves). If there is not 100% honesty in the bedroom, that’s not going to magically appear in 30 years.
    If you don’t feel like you can be honest with the woman you’re with, you shouldn’t be with her – end of. Some time into a relationship I’ll ask “is there anything we haven’t done you’d want to do?” and maybe there is something he hasn’t asked for yet. I’ve never felt there are any ‘boundaries’ or limitations to a relationship.
    I have sympathy for men who married women who stopped having sex with them after some time, but I don’t have sympathy for men who choose to marry women they’re not compatible with sexually, and then complain – or worse yet, cheat.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have sympathy for men who married women who stopped having sex with them after some time, but I don’t have sympathy for men who choose to marry women they’re not compatible with sexually, and then complain – or worse yet, cheat.

      This is the problem with no sex before the wedding. The sexual compatibility is a total crap shoot.

  • http://freedomization.typepad.com/ Someguy

    Congratulations, Susan. This post was listed at Real Clear Science!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Someguy

      This post was listed at Real Clear Science!

      Wow, thanks for letting me know, I hadn’t realized. That’s a great link – sent me thousands of readers in about three hours.

  • Angelguy

    “If you don’t feel like you can be honest with the woman you’re with, you shouldn’t be with her – end of. Some time into a relationship I’ll ask “is there anything we haven’t done you’d want to do?” and maybe there is something he hasn’t asked for yet. I’ve never felt there are any ‘boundaries’ or limitations to a relationship.

    @Anne
    You’re a woman after my own heart. “is there anything we haven’t done you’d want to do?” Melted my heart reading that quote.

    I have sympathy for men who married women who stopped having sex with them after some time, but I don’t have sympathy for men who choose to marry women they’re not compatible with sexually, and then complain – or worse yet, cheat.”

    Well that is the thing. Most men don’t change, even after they are married, most Women DO change.
    You might have been compatible with your spouse in the beginning, but who is to say, it will be the same after a few years.

    Btw, I am not married, but I hear about this sort of thing.

  • Angelguy

    Here is a question I would like ask the ladies on this thread.

    Would you feel worse if your spouse or signifigant other cheated with someone of a lower SMV or higher SMV than you?

    Susan, not hijacking the thread here, just thought hearing some of the answers would be interesting.

  • Jonny

    There are many ways to look at rebellion and not just the religious angle. Women can rebel against the stereotype of a submissive wife. Men can rebel against female nagging. I found the hypocrisy argument of religious conservatives to be self-serving. Is cheating wrong or not? It’s like the argument that abortion is right except when only daughters are pre-selected for abortions.

  • Hope

    Re: Madonna/whore complex and cheating. This post from the rawness is a good read.

    http://therawness.com/madonnawhore-complexes-part-3/

  • Emily

    The “man cheats with ugly woman” thing is almost a cliche at this point. I wonder if it’s because a lower SMV woman will tend to “worship” the man in a way that his SMV equal won’t.

    If a guy’s wife is treating him like garbage, I can see why that would be appealing (even if the “other woman” is less attractive).

    I can also believe that there are narcissistic types who aren’t satisfied with basic love and respect, and want the kind of reverence that they can only get from the lower-SMV mistress.

  • Anacaona

    Would you feel worse if your spouse or signifigant other cheated with someone of a lower SMV or higher SMV than you?
    IMO cheating is cheating. How hot the other woman is doesn’t really change the betrayal, IMO.

  • Anne

    “Yeah, I can see that. Adultery is the ultimate emasculation tool for a Woman.
    The rise in Divorce parties in recent years, seem to illustrate this.”

    Speaking of, I recently watched a French movie about adultery. One of the stories is about a man cheating on his wife. She then confesses she slept with someone too, and he goes mental and demands the details. He’s far more upset than she is.
    It’s on Netflix and called The Players / Les Infèdeles and it’s made up from several short stories about adultery – some of them funny. It’s subtitled and great for those who are interested in French relationships :)

    My favorite is Closer, and there is a scene where Clive Owen is confronting Julia Roberts about her infidelity. I originally just watched it because Clive is my ultimate crush, but I ended up loving it. Everybody is cheating in the movie, but even though Roberts’ infidelity is due to being unhappy, her husband is obsessed with the sexual details. It seems that even though there is a bigger problem, he focuses on nothing but the sexual stuff.
    I wonder if Susan have seen it, it’s one of my favourites and it’s all about relationship issues.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anne

      Yes, I thought Closer was a very good film. Great cast. I recall seeing Clive Owen originally in some cop show on the BBC. He is very attractive.

      One of the stories is about a man cheating on his wife. She then confesses she slept with someone too, and he goes mental and demands the details. He’s far more upset than she is.

      I’ve shared this before, but there was a family in my son’s high school with the most bizarre cheating story I ever heard. These people are extremely wealthy – I don’t think either of them work. Anyway, she came home one night and during an argument confessed to having an affair with the tennis pro at the country club. So cliched. He became incensed because – wait for it – the husband was also having sex with the tennis pro.

      So I guess they shared the STD risk equally…

      They’re divorced now.

  • Anacaona

    I can also believe that there are narcissistic types who aren’t satisfied with basic love and respect, and want the kind of reverence that they can only get from the lower-SMV mistress.
    Also the mistress only needs to compete with the wife. Whatever the wife is lacking she can up it. The wife had to compete with every single woman back in the day before she got her ring. Is easy to be the ethernal girlfriend and get the upper hand when you are working around the married man schedule and routine.
    Is all an illusion that is why most affairs end once the man or the woman divorce and they become the primary partner.

  • BuenaVista

    SW@3:03:

    She seems to have the ability to cut weight like Dan Gable. I’m sorry, but this woman is standing next to a 240 lb. man — and it’s not clear who’s in charge:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/fashion/photos_lindsey_vonn_style_evolution_1RapJ0x2Djk9skBoPoOQEO?photo_num=9

    When she does beefcake shoots, I bet she drops 30.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BV

      That’s crazy – LV is nearly the same size as Tim Tebow! Yikes.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/ HanSolo

    @Bastiat

    Interesting stuff you mention.

    I think it would be very interesting to see a more granular look by including the “opportunity to cheat” variable.

    It’s interesting that executives and managers were listed above as one of the most likely groups to cheat. It’s also interesting to look at how many politicians cheat in some fashion. Bill, Spitzer, Weiner, Sanford, Edwards, Ensign, Gingrich…. Even big bore Al Gore was allegedly a horny hustler behind the facade of his dull public persona and excessively-long Tipper smooch. Perhaps the Rolling Stones boner picture provided truer insight than his dull monologues about lock boxes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s interesting that executives and managers were listed above as one of the most likely groups to cheat.

      They have regular access to subordinate women. Traveling on business is especially conducive to cheating.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/ HanSolo

    Looks like Gore may have needed a cock lock box himself.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @SW

    Ridiculous to scapegoat the victim.

    Who one blames in a situation like this may also indicate who one admires. Yin and yang?

    As an avid gold watcher, I can honesty say that Woods and John Daly are the two greatest embarrassments to the game in recent history.

  • http://www.justfourguys.com/study-shows-women-fuck-hotter-men/ HanSolo

    @Susan

    I say interesting because I got in an argument with someone saying that execs were less likely to cheat. To me it seemed like they might be more likely to cheat and so it’s not surprising to me that they do. But it is always interesting to see that what you suspect is confirmed with a study.

  • Jonny

    “This is the problem with no sex before the wedding. The sexual compatibility is a total crap shoot.”

    Is there such a thing as “sexual compatibility” after marriage? Marriage changes many things including libido.

    I happen to think marriage changes women more than men. Women seem to stop taking care of themselves as the first step in their decline.

  • Lokland

    @Anne

    “The idea that some men cheat with trashy women to “stick it to their wives” is depressing. I thought there was some guilt and perhaps remorse involved, and not hatred towards their partner ”

    This was suggested by Susan. That I’ve seen no man has backed up that thought.

    I suspect this may be a woman painting female drives onto men.

    Men cheat to have more kids because they want as many kids as possible. Their wife’s value being irrelevant.

    Women cheat because their husband sucks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This was suggested by Susan. That I’ve seen no man has backed up that thought.

      I suspect this may be a woman painting female drives onto men.

      Very possible – I was really just musing, not stating facts.

      Men cheat to have more kids because they want as many kids as possible. Their wife’s value being irrelevant.

      Nonsense. Didn’t you see the part about how intelligent men are evolutionarily adaptive?

  • Lokland

    @Ana/Anne

    “If you don’t feel like you can be honest with the woman you’re with, you shouldn’t be with her – end of. Some time into a relationship I’ll ask “is there anything we haven’t done you’d want to do?” and maybe there is something he hasn’t asked for yet. I’ve never felt there are any ‘boundaries’ or limitations to a relationship.”

    I saw you both agree to this;

    As a hypothetical, what if they asked for a threesome or the option to cheat or something other than basic kink?

  • Lokland

    Pardon that should be addressed to Angelguy not Anacaona.

  • Lokland

    @Mega

    “No, though you seem to be suggesting that that was what I was suggesting.
    I made no mention of morality; my observation was matter-of-fact.”

    I wasn’t. I did not and still do not comprehend what your point was.

    I suspect it might be that taking a common negative behaviour and then having a media feeding frenzy about it is wrong.

    Which I agree with.

    I am not sure on why you think it is wrong however?

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    cannot recommend ‘Gangsters, Guns & Zombies’ as a fill in for gangsters vs zombies (made contemperaneously, inspired by the same idea, I suspect). has a few funny bits, including an announcement on the radio that the zombie outbreak is to be blamed on NHS cuts(!) ‘Muscles’ is a cool character (eventually). but otherwise? disappointing.

    Just watched ‘la soga’ from the D.R. graphic (extremely) but a good film. Based on real events(?) Liked Jenny, kind of a latina Madeleine Stowa – quality nice! No wonder your hubbie looked for a wife there, his judgement was clearly excellent.

    that concludes the movie news. moff, g’night.

  • Escoffier

    Hey, Susan, today is my second wedding anniversary. That is, the anniversary of my second wedding, we’ve actually been married slightly longer than that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hey, Susan, today is my second wedding anniversary. That is, the anniversary of my second wedding, we’ve actually been married slightly longer than that.

      Lucky Mrs. E gets two celebrations?

      Congratulations, Esco! How many years?

  • Fish

    Re:libido after marriage
    Having been the other man, I can say married friend #1 still has quite a high libido. I think her libido is high due to the way I treat her (we’ve been friends since Jr high, she was actually my first crush). I do love her, it is an interesting relationship.

    Re:cheating
    So it seems apart from opportunity, marital satisfaction is the 2nd biggest predictor of cheating so keep your mate happy and you’re good? I also wonder about the N = 1 survey. Huge sampling error there. Huge. I myself have never been married. Ergo, I have never cheated on my wife. I do know people who have cheated and I think you can lump them in 2 types: “cheating type” and unsatisfied. Cheating types cheat on everyone (the highest N chick I know has cheated on both husbands), I wonder if they’ve tracked cheating by history of cheating. The other bucket is the unsatisfied lot (which is say married friend #1 is a member).

    Bottom line, in ny experience, people who are satisfiedwwith their relationship don’t cheat, unless they’re just the cheating type.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland “As a hypothetical, what if they asked for a threesome or the option to cheat or something other than basic kink?”

    There is a big poly/swinger community out there. They’re all adults, consensual, open and honest. It’s not my thing, but whatever.

    The terrible thing about cheating is the lying. It’s the dishonesty and betrayal that gets people. If you tell someone upfront, that person gets to decide whether or not they are okay with it. If they say they’re not okay with it, then you leave and find someone who is okay with it. That’s okay.

    If your kink is getting off on hurting other people psychologically and cheating on them like a sneaky fucker, then that’s not okay. That’s something frowned upon even in the poly and swinger communities.

    Notice I never jump on OTC/GM for the threesome because his wife consented. That’s their business, and there didn’t seem to be lying involved. It may be “unsavory” to me personally, but it’s not cheating.

    I also didn’t jump on you for the arrangement you had with your wife before you got married. She knew about it and was okay with it. I’m not her, and I’d never agree to such a thing, but she’s not me, and she’s free to do what she likes. I have my own opinions, but I’m not going to tell other people how to live their lives.

    But cheating, that’s lying and betrayal. I hate that. Give me all the information, and I’ll make my own decisions.

  • Escoffier

    15y.

    Actually, we almost never celebrate. We both like it that way. Two cranks, I guess.

    Every once in a while I give her a gift for one or the other, totally random and unexpected.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Nonsense. Didn’t you see the part about how intelligent men are evolutionarily adaptive?”

    Yes.
    When detailing the reasons as to why a man would cheat from an evolutionary (or any perspective) those reasons are only applicable to the group of men that do cheat.

    Those that do not experience a separate set of drives.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @Fish

    I also wonder about the N = 1 survey. Huge sampling error there. Huge.

    What sampling error, specifically?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I may be the exception, but I quite like that picture of Hillary Clinton. There obviously isn’t a high SMV anywhere to be found in there, but there seems to be a soft innocence and happiness that indicates “wife-material.”

    For instance, gun to head, if that pic of Hillary was put up against this photo of the characters of Spring Breakers:
    http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34000000/spring-breakers-2013-selena-gomez-34037687-1600-941.jpg

    I would probably choose Hillary.

    But then again I am a weird guy.

  • Anacaona

    @ADBG
    There might be hope for you then! :D

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    movie reviews at #96 for you. Think they caught caught in mod for mentioning gurns / zimbies or some such

  • Fish

    @MM

    N = 1 accounted for over 90% of the survey and they’re 20% of the country, that’s sampling error…

  • Fish

    Unless the goal was to do a study of people who had only had sex with their Sig other and didn’t apply to 80% of the country…

  • Fish

    I misread, past 12 months, not ever.. .

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @Fish
    I see no survey results where 90% of respondents reported N = 1.

    Go fish!

  • Angelguy

    As a hypothetical, what if they asked for a threesome or the option to cheat or something other than basic kink?

    I think one has to be very careful about asking for something like this, because one must also be opened minded to the fact that if you are asking for a threesome kink, you have to accept she might want something you don’t necessarily approve of.
    In the swinger community, everyone has to accept want the other partner’s limits are. how does one know that your partner might not want the same thing, except in the opposite way?

  • Sassy6519

    *peeks head in*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      *peeks head in*

      Hey you, I’ve been wondering where you are. Hope all is well.

  • J

    but it is only intelligent men are able to shed the psychological baggage of their species and adopt new modes of behaviour.

    Sometimes, I think that K-selected humans and R-selected humans are almost two different species! This seems self-evident to me. Raising good kids is a two person task. Anything that threatens that is going to be deleterious to the species.

    An example: I spent the week with my oldest BFF in a cottage in a backwoods area formerly owned by her folks. While we were out driving, she pointed out the local brothel and commented that her dad used to frequent it. I knew while we were growing up that her folks weren’t happy; I didn’t know about the whoring around. There are five kids in her family. Two never married. One married and divorced. Two have had lasting marriages and kids. Out of five kids there are four grandkids. How many might there be had marriage looked more appealing to those kids?

  • J

    Hey, Susan, today is my second wedding anniversary. That is, the anniversary of my second wedding, we’ve actually been married slightly longer than that.

    Congrats, Esco!

    @All

    I’ll be somewhat scarce for the next two weeks. Taking a trip with DH–our first alone in 18 years! No kids!!! The ambivalence! Romance, yay! Worry about the kids, :-(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Have a wonderful time with DH!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Hey you, I’ve been wondering where you are. Hope all is well.

    Hi Susan. :)

    Things have been going well. I’ve been keeping myself pretty busy, so my opportunities to comment have taken a bit of a nose dive.

    I’ve mainly been working and hanging out with friends. I’m also currently dating a few guys, so that is a handful as well. I hope to be able to check in more often though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Sounds good – we look forward to your sharing some deets. ;)

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “Sounds like you align with the 8%”

    I dunno. I just think all those men who say its for emotional fulfillment, even though they like their wives and say they are attractive, just lack self awareness or aren’t being honest with themselves about why this is “emotionally fulfilling” to them and why they were “unfulfilled emotionally” before they cheated. I think they are hamsterizing. Just like many women who say their marriage is emotionally unfulfilling are probably trying to find a reason for their urge toward hypergamy, serial monogamy or cuckoldry. “No, I didn’t do it because of an urge to trade up or a need to to find a new mate in order to maximize genetic variation. There was just something missing in our relationship.”

    If I’m going to call out women for hamsterizing the source of their urges, I need to do it to the men too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PasserBy

      If I’m going to call out women for hamsterizing the source of their urges, I need to do it to the men too.

      Fair enough. Sometimes these things don’t pass the smell test.

  • http://xxcollegechronicles.wordpress.com resrieg

    “You did not ‘sign up for that’ when you got married. Hubby was a great looking guy with a good job and now he is a mediocre middle-mgr. and gained 40 lbs. or wifey was hot with a killer bod and good job and after kid#2, she stopped caring and became a ‘quitter.’ Worse, if one of the partners stops wanting to have sex, that is a fast track to infidelity and/or divorce.”

    This sounds like my worst nightmare. I’m determined to stay as in shape as possible and continue dressing well/wearing makeup when I’m married, but there’s no way to guarantee that your spouse will do the same. Susan, do you have any ideas for how to determine if someone is the type to let himself go with age? Qualities that you should look out for before marriage?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, do you have any ideas for how to determine if someone is the type to let himself go with age? Qualities that you should look out for before marriage?

      I’d say that people generally don’t change that much. If he’s vain now, he’ll be vain later. If he is conscientious now he’s likely to be conscientous later. If he’s lazy now, he’ll be lazy later.

      I would also note that people do change. We age. If you have children, that will change your body. Horribly, many women request c-sections so that their figures are unaffected by childbirth. As your hormones change, your body will also change.

      This is true for men and women. The beautifully groomed guy you adore at 25 will lose the hair on his head and sprout it from his ears. His eyebrows will grow bushy and unruly. Will you stop loving him?

      And I haven’t even touched on illness. Do you know what percentage of people take prescription meds? It’s high.

      People who work long hours often have a very sedentary lifestyle, which also takes its toll.

      Personally, I don’t know very many people at 50 who look as good as they did at 30. We’re all going to “go,” whether we let ourselves do so or not. I find the emphasis on this to be rather troubling, to be honest.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        FYI I am in trouble with Google, and the offense is duplicate records created by comment pagination. Sorry, folks, but if Google search doesn’t like me, there is no HUS.

  • http://xxcollegechronicles.wordpress.com resrieg

    Also, I was convinced that Hillary Clinton was pretty attractive when I saw this photo:

    but completely changed my mind once I saw this second one Susan posted…

  • BuenaVista

    SW on Things Fall Apart, or Not:

    “I’d say that people generally don’t change that much. If he’s vain now, he’ll be vain later. If he is conscientious now he’s likely to be conscientous later. If he’s lazy now, he’ll be lazy later.”

    Further: Most of the men I know reflect their fathers’ habits and appearance as they age. I’d advise any woman to meet their boyfriend’s dad. The father is the pre-eminent model all men follow, and in fact, compete with. Our fathers are our baseline.

    In the simplest frame, sound eating, drinking and exercise habits (or their absence) exist or don’t exist at 30. Short of illness, accident, or severe psych trauma, they’re not going to change. The important thing for a person to understand is that bad habits are cumulative in their effects over time.

  • http://gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Sassy “I’m also currently dating a few guys, so that is a handful as well.”

    Oooo. Spinning plates as in multiple prospects, or spinning plates as in harem?

  • Superwoman Returns

    Here’s something about fidelity that you all wanted to know but were afraid to ask;

    If my spouse cheats on me should I take divorce off the table, consider staying with her (or him), forgiving and loving again, for the sake of the kids?

    YES.

    Kids always come first. Always.

  • Superwoman Returns

    If my spouse cheats on me and we have kids should I stay with him/her anyway?

    YES.

    Now hat’s something everybody always wanted to know but was afraid to hear the answer to.

  • SWR

    If you have kids, stay married. No matter what.

  • http://gravatar.com/richardaubrey richardaubrey

    I know personally only two married people whom I know for sure to have had affairs. In both cases, they were overweight, not particularly attractive guys. I know nothing about the other party in either case. The wife of one was up there in the SMP, above him, if I’m any judge which I’m probably not.
    Trying to figure out who would have an affair with these guys. Best I can figure is it was a matter of two emotional issues–“hunger” is too dramatic–happening to meet.
    Most times, I suppose, an emotional issue just lumbers along not encountering a matching emotional issue. So nothing happens.
    Unless a hot, young woman as looking for an improvement in her world–screwing the boss–these guys weren’t getting hot young women. The HYW had better opportunities. And neither of them were in a position to offer a quid pro quo of that sort.

  • Abbot

    Everything you wanted to know about “slut shaming”

    “Restricting the supply of “sluts,” after all, significantly limits the potential for misogynistic indulgence in female sexual objectification.”

    “Male sexuality, on the other hand, is ubiquitous and cheap. What’s more, men tend to place a higher value on sexual gratification than do women. Men, therefore, comprise the demand for sex.”

    “A review of the literature on sexual suppression suggests that the evidence is more consistent with the female cartel theory than the patriarchy theory”

    http://theumlaut.com/2013/07/02/the-economics-of-slut-shaming/

    .

  • Laurel

    BV#205 “I’ve never heard — once — any of my friends or acquaintances run down his spouse. Not once”

    You must have nice friends then. Several times I’ve heard men running down their wives / GFs in public or group settings. To be honest, I’ve also heard women running down their husbands / BFs, probably more often than the other way around.

    I think being deliberately hurful to your spouse / SO, especially in public, IS a kind of infidelity and is engaged in by people who would think of themselves as wounded victims if the other kind happened to them.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    Abbot says:
    Everything you wanted to know about “slut shaming”

    “That hatred springs more from self-contempt than from a legitimate grievance is seen in the intimate connection between hatred and a guilty conscience… There is a guilty conscience behind every brazen word and act and behind every manifestation of self-righteousness.” (TTB, 1951)

  • https://www.facebook.com/obsidian.files Obsidian Files

    @Mega Man:
    Although we’ve never had any direct communication until now, it seems clear that you do not have a particularly high opinion of the Manosphere, its more notable denizens nor some of its chief arguments.

    Though I can certainly see how and why you and others here could/would feel that way, I am of the view that quite a few of the Manosphere’s concerns are not totally unwarrented, nor completely without merit. Indeed, taking an otherwise derisive view of the Manosphere’s claims, instead of giving them due consideration, only fosters more enmity and animosity – not clarity or understanding.

    I will be the first to admit that many in the Manosphere make hyperbolic claims, many of which clearly coming from a deep place of personal pain. But even this fact belies so many of the assumptions we all have held about things in the areas of human mating and what I refer to as Sexual Politics – these are Men who have nowhere else to go, for more traditional forms of counseling services do not take their concerns seriously, if at all. In this sense, then, the Manosphere, if nothing else, acts as a much needed “couch” for these guys. I think that alone, has merit.

    As something of a “special member” of said Manosphere of sorts, perhaps we can sitdown and reason out some of the key arguments therein. Please know that I do not personally agree with all of them; merely suggestting that I understand them in a way that perhaps you may not.

    Looking forward to chatting with you.

    O.

  • http://gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @Obs

    Looking forward to chatting with you.

    Don’t mistake that quote from the great longshoreman philosopher as something partisan. It could easily be applied to anyone with a one-track mind and an axe to grind; though it just so happens that Mr. Abbot is a member of the angrysphere, albeit one that talks to himself.

    I just have a strong aversion to mass movements, be they social, political or religious; masculine, feminine, or neuter; based in reality, fantasy, or online. Those prone to such thinking tend to exhibit very obvious tendencies, contempt for the “other” being just one of several.

    I mean, why else would a *man* come to a place like *this* and harp on the same dubious topic, for literally years on end? If persuasion is the goal, it’s one of the worst attempts I’ve ever come across.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . Those prone to such thinking tend to exhibit very obvious tendencies, contempt for the “other” being just one of several.

      The other big one is confirmation bias. I’ve come to realize that some men need the Red Pill as much as they need oxygen. They need to believe in the feral female model, the hypergamous psycho bitch who wants all the wrong things in a man. Why? Because it explains their experience with women. These experiences come in two general types:

      1. Difficulty obtaining and/or maintaining attraction from the opposite sex.

      2. Dark Triad or other personality disorders prevent bonding and satisfying LTRs.

      With a few exceptions, the sphere is an odd mix of these two types, who make rather strange bedfellows. When you add in the anonymity of the net, the expression of anger is both alarming and yes, creepy.

  • SWR

    Aubrey, yep. Who assumes cheaters and the ones they cheat with are fit and attractive? Most are plain looking. However again, if you are married to a plain woman or plain man and she or he cheats, if you are childless, feel free to divorce. If you have kids, adult up and work it out together – for their sake.

    “Male sexuality, on the other hand, is ubiquitous and cheap. What’s more, men tend to place a higher value on sexual gratification than do women. Men, therefore, comprise the demand for sex.”

    Men tend to place a higher value on sexual gratification? This is news to me. Perhaps what is meant was quantity, not quality? Because every woman (in a relationship) I know places a high value on sexual quality, that is sexual satisfaction, which is in fact “gratification”.

    I mean millions of articles and books are written by and for women to this end and lets not forget the multi-billion dollar sex toy industry.

    Those sex-bots and that holographic 3D sex technology the “sphere” talks about all the time? Guess which demographic of consumer is going to drive that industry? The same one which is driving the sex toy industry today.

  • http://gravatar.com/jonlaw2 JP

    @MM:

    “I mean, why else would a *man* come to a place like *this* and harp on the same dubious topic, for literally years on end? If persuasion is the goal, it’s one of the worst attempts I’ve ever come across.””

    Once your blog reaches a certain size, you get at least one.

    It’s standard Internet.

  • http://gravatar.com/jonlaw2 JP

    “In other words, a man doesn’t stray because he thinks he’ll get better sex with a better-looking body. “In most cases, he’s cheating to fill an emotional void. He feels a connection with the other woman, and sex comes along for the ride.”

    If this was generally true, I would still be with my ex-girlfriend.

  • https://www.facebook.com/obsidian.files Obsidian Files

    @Mega Man:
    “Don’t mistake that quote from the great longshoreman philosopher as something partisan. It could easily be applied to anyone with a one-track mind and an axe to grind; though it just so happens that Mr. Abbot is a member of the angrysphere, albeit one that talks to himself.”

    O: Noted – although to be fair, I cannot easily recall you upbraiding Feminists anywhere near as much, if at all…

    “I just have a strong aversion to mass movements, be they social, political or religious; masculine, feminine, or neuter; based in reality, fantasy, or online. Those prone to such thinking tend to exhibit very obvious tendencies, contempt for the “other” being just one of several.”

    O: I am curious if this aversion included the Civil Rights movement, and if not, why?

    “I mean, why else would a *man* come to a place like *this* and harp on the same dubious topic, for literally years on end? If persuasion is the goal, it’s one of the worst attempts I’ve ever come across.”

    O: I’m in no position to speak for Mr. Abbott (though I must thank him for the PUA Roundtable at New York Magazine headsup); why not ask him directly?

    O.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Pro-tip to the men re: Mega and mass acceptance

    If the message is unpaltable to Mega, it probably won’t play in Peoria, so to speak.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If the message is unpaltable to Mega, it probably won’t play in Peoria, so to speak.

      Ha, Mega is a resident of No Cal.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Apparently I need to re-subscribe, so sorry for the double-post…

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I am sort of ambivalent about the new comment format, but one thing would help, I think, that is, can you fix it so that the numbering system makes sense? I get that newest are on the top now, but the numbering order still goes top down, which is mildly confusing.

    No biggie, I guess, but I think it would be better …

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re comment numbering, will take a look. We might need to return to newest last format.

  • Escoffier

    To clarify a little, I think what is most confusing is that, every time a new comment is posted, the entire column is re-numbered.

  • Escoffier

    Hey, Obs, this is OT, but earlier you mentioned the “afrosphere”. I am familiar with Lourey and McWhorter (have actually met the latter a few times) but otherwise not familiar with this group of blogs, are there any that you recommend?

  • Escoffier

    OK, last comment on comments (I hope). So, it says there are only 147 comments on this post. And I see only 147. But then they are numbered up to 292. Which implies a missing page. But I see no link to a missing page. I take it there isn’t one? I dimly recall that Lokland’s comment was first so they do all appear to be here. Is this just another example of the wonky numbering?

    Have you disabled pagination so that all comment threads always appear on a single page now?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Have you disabled pagination so that all comment threads always appear on a single page now?

      Yes, I was informed by Google that comment pagination is producing duplicate content. Which is a very bad thing from their POV. I can expect to be bumped down significantly in search results if I do not remove it. Since 60% of HUS traffic every day is new readers, that is not palatable.

  • SWR

    “In other words, a man doesn’t stray because he thinks he’ll get better sex with a better-looking body. “In most cases, he’s cheating to fill an emotional void. He feels a connection with the other woman, and sex comes along for the ride.”

    “If this was generally true, I would still be with my ex-girlfriend.”

    Meaning what – your ex fulfilled your emotional void, or not?

  • SWR

    I wonder if people who are generally in love and happy with their spouses ever cheat too?

    At any rate, cheating is bad and can be life destroying… but it doesn’t have to be.

    I say work it out some arrangement, even if its open marriage, for the sake of the kids and family unit.

  • http://gravatar.com/jimbocollins MM

    @Obs
    Quick replies:
    – Should any rabid fems ever show up around here, I have the same facts armed and ready; torpedoes are primed. I’ve said this before: the ladies around here tend to be of the moderate variety. I suppose I could go looking for trouble elsewhere, but I already have a day job + HUS!
    – My views on mass movements is just a personal opinion; I was not suggesting that all such movements are equal, or that a mass movement like Civil Rights or Zionism was wrong or didn’t accomplish anything beneficial. Merely that I’ve never been comfortable getting personally involved. Eric Hoffer was pretty clear about that: he was analyzing common characteristics of different groups, not making moral judgments about them. But I can certainly agree that those two examples have done more good than not. National socialism, quite the opposite.
    – A broken record doesn’t answer questions, unless I missed something; honestly, what would he say?

  • Gin Martini

    grr. Site is now unusable on iPad. Wrong thread.

  • http://gravatar.com/jonlaw2 JP

    “Nearly all of my posts, save about five, are stone-cold sober. I changed handles to something completely random when I was trolling the troll.”

    I tried to get a gin gimlet on the boat last night and failed.

    Oh, well.

    Life goes on.

  • http://gravatar.com/jonlaw2 JP

    “Meaning what – your ex fulfilled your emotional void, or not?”

    I was fine being emotionally entangled with her.

    However, I wasn’t physically attracted to her, so it was a bad fit, relationship-wise.

    That was my point.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Oooo. Spinning plates as in multiple prospects, or spinning plates as in harem?

    I’ve been “spinning plates” as in dating multiple guys. I’ve been going on dates with several guys, but I haven’t been sleeping with any of them. I don’t want sex to make the situation any more complicated than it already is.

    @ Susan Walsh

    Sounds good – we look forward to your sharing some deets. ;)

    I can share some “deets”, considering that things have been kind of interesting so far.

    I’ve meet several guys recently through shared interest/hobby groups. All of the men have been in their mid-late thirties, and all of the men have been established professionally. Each guy has been more than willing to spend their money on me by taking me on fancy dates in the city. I admit to feeling slightly guilty about the amount of money being spent, since I don’t believe that I will be dating most of them for much longer. I don’t really see any of them as the potential “one”, and I’ve offered several times to split the bills, but they’ve insisted on spending $50-$100 dollars on me per date.

    One guy, who I’ve been on a few dates with, decided to take me to the new Italian hotspot in the city called Sotto. This was after he had already taken me to have dinner at a fancy sushi restaurant. At Sotto, we drank lots of wine, talked, and shared dessert together. Afterwards, we walked around the city for hours.

    Another guy has taken me on many more dates, including inviting me to a wine social that he was having at his home. The more that I hang out with him, the more people in his life that he keeps introducing me to. It’s a bit overwhelming, to be honest. On the last date he and I went on this past Thursday, he admitted having feelings for me while we were lounging on a couch in some trendy bar.

    As I said earlier, I don’t think that I will be dating these guys much longer, and I plan on letting them know my thoughts about things soon. I’ve just been enjoying having fun, but I’m not ready to settle down with anyone quite yet. I feel like being honest with them, at this point, will be the best thing overall.