The Summertime Femininity Challenge

July 8, 2011

“There is something inherently fascinating about pretty young women leading lives shaped around romance and sexuality instead of power and ambition. A generation is hungry for these stories, which have come to represent—who would have guessed it?—a kind of feminine arcadia.”

Caitlin Flanagan, Stewardesses and Bunnies of Yore, Wall St. Journal

 

Americans are on a nostalgia binge, and they’re particularly fascinated with portrayals of glamorous women – pre-feminism, pre-Friedan gals. It’s not just those of us who came of age in the 60s, either. Mad Men parties have been all the rage on college campuses for the last couple of years, and the Playboy bunny Halloween costume is always a best seller.

This fall, two new nostalgia series will debut on TV, and they too will undoubtedly pull a scrim over the past, romanticizing the 60s in much the same way Mad Men has done. Pan Am centers on the lives of stewardesses during the golden age of jet travel, when people still got very dressed up to fly and expected beautiful, sexy women to serve their coffee. Caitlin Flanagan, writing Stewardesses and Bunnies of Yore in the WSJ:

“We’ve reached a new cultural moment. There is something naughtily alluring now about these young women who don’t need to spend a second fretting over that scourge of the contemporary female: work/life balance.

Like millions of other women of their proximate age and social class in that era, the stewardesses of “Pan Am” move through a series of airtight compartments: the college education, the fun and adventurous career, the betrothal that ends in the transformation to homemaker.

That this sequence is no longer regarded as a bullet train to what Ms. Friedan called “the problem that has no name,” but rather as the substance of dreamy, wish-fulfillment television, tells us just how far behind we’ve left the old battles and barricades. What once looked like oppression now seems heavenly.”

There’s also The Playboy Club, a sleazy show about the same era. Flanagan:

“What both [shows] share is an absence of judgment about jobs that were once at the very center of the feminist critique of women’s roles and prospects.”

If Sex and the City was the realization of feminist goals for female sexuality, then Pan Am and The Playboy Club must be considered a backlash of sorts. My theory is that both sexes are missing the sense of feminine and masculine energies in direct contrast with each other, something that has essentially been bred out of the culture. As Stuart Schneiderman says:

Women are having difficulty finding good men because they themselves are the good men they are looking for.

Is there a way to get femininity back? For women and men to work productively side by side without sublimating their natural differences? If women return to acting feminine, and ultimately being feminine, will men respond positively?

Let’s find out. Six months ago I wrote The Essence of Femininity in an effort to define it. Based largely on feedback from male HUS readers, I published the following 6 key aspects of femininity:

1. Nurturing

Men respond to women who convey warmth and affection. Women have a natural predisposition towards taking care of others – most importantly, family.

Men crave a nurturing and tender touch from women, and women enjoy bestowing it. Several men mentioned looking for clues that a woman will be a good mother. A nurturing personality is the number one cue for that.

2. Playful

Men love to be teased. One requested coyness and another coquettishness, which is defined as “teasing sexual or romantic overtures; flirtation.” Playfulness is one of the things that has been discouraged by feminism, as it was considered a sure-fire way not to be taken seriously. I believe that a sense of playfulness, humor, and good-natured teasing is almost always appropriate, and men value this quality in a woman. Don’t take yourself too seriously.

3. Subtle

Women have been taught that “you get what you ask for,” and “you can do anything you want if you fight for it.” Consequently, we have gotten rather obvious and aggressive in the last couple of generations. This has served us well in some ways, but it doesn’t translate very well to relationships. We have made seduction artless, which is pitiably a lot less fun for everyone. It is impossible to be intriguing when one is obvious. It is impossible to be curious about someone when they are an open book, displaying their wares as if for sale. One man described subtlety as communicating “class and elegance.” Another described the appeal of mystery, advising women “Show, don’t tell.”

4. Emotionally Intelligent

Men perceive that women are good at emotions, that they can be sensitive and tactful. Men crave empathy, understanding and appreciation from women. They need the support of women, and they appreciate good listening skills. They also enjoy a woman’s emotional vulnerability as a proxy for her emotional health and ability to bond. One man said that he wants a woman to have sex like a woman, and that means emotional intimacy. Men will avoid committing to a woman who does not “have eyes only for them.”

5. Taking pride in feminine appearance

Both men and women value good grooming and careful attention to dressing. Men like skirts and dresses more than pants, tailored pants more than sweats. Emphasize what makes you female!

Not surprisingly, men and young women are tuned in to maximizing those features that also serve as cues for fertility: skin, physical health and fitness, and the ever-present preference for long hair. Several guys mentioned loving polished fingers and toes. Modesty was mentioned as having more allure than brash display of physical assets.

6. Displaying female physicality

One reader shared her grandmother’s advice that a woman needs to walk like a woman. This was echoed repeatedly by the males. They notice and appreciate female posture, body language, facial expressions, and eye contact. Men strongly prefer a feminine tone of voice, and love the sound of a woman’s laugh.

 

Summer is a good time to experiment with changing things up a bit. Try to be aware of how you interact with men. Don’t slip into androgyny, even in the workplace. It’s entirely possible to be feminine and professional. My best mentors were all male, and they never would have called me “one of the guys.”

Try adopting more feminine mannerisms, and observe how men respond. Show a bit of vulnerability – you’ll trigger the protective instinct in males, rather than the competitive one.

Americans are in search of the feminine. Give yourself permission to be a woman. You know you want to. 

  • Johnny Milfquest

    That Stuart Schneiderman quote is PURE GOLD.

    Women should recognise that every step up they take on the career ladder will reduce the number of men who are ABOVE THEM on the career ladder.

    Think about it. That’s not a problem for a woman who is happy to “date down”, but realistically, how many women are willing to date or marry men of lower status?

    Most women are comfortable with the idea of other women doing it, but just wouldn’t do it themselves.

    • That Stuart Schneiderman quote is PURE GOLD.

      Isn’t it? I’ve actually posted it before. It’s just so perfectly worded.

  • Kate

    Do I want to? I’ve read through this article and I see no explanation really as to why I, as a young woman, should follow this advice. I suppose if I was single and put a lot of stock in the opinions of the people who comment on your blog, I might “gussy myself up” a bit to try to lure in a man. Really though, if someone doesn’t already act that way, it’s probably not in their nature. Are you saying that women should lie or put on a facade in order to attract a man? In that scenario, everyone loses. The man either finds her slowly reverting to her old habits and laments that she isn’t the woman he fell in love with, or is partnered with someone who is living a lie, and unwilling to share her whole self with him. The woman is either hiding her true nature or risks losing this guy if she changes.

    • @Kate

      Really though, if someone doesn’t already act that way, it’s probably not in their nature. Are you saying that women should lie or put on a facade in order to attract a man?

      I disagree. I think that if you are a woman, then it is in your nature to be feminine. However, if you were raised after 1960 you have been taught, in every avenue of life, that acting female is detrimental to women’s interests. Women of my generation grew up being consistently rewarded for acting like a man, and chastised for being too female in our interests. During the last 50 years, women have been masculinized and men have become feminized. The key is to act more like who you really are, by breaking free of the cultural indoctrination that has us all in its grip.

      I think it’s pretty clear that both sexes find the other lacking, and have resorted to sex that resembles animals rutting – it’s the shortest, straightest line to pleasure, romance be damned. Movies and TV shows promoting an earlier era, when men wore the pants in the family and women felt comfortable nurturing, reflect this awareness in society, and the desire to escape it.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    The woman is either hiding her true nature or risks losing this guy if she changes.

    Well feminism had been telling women to stop doing that for decades now. How do you know is not the other way around and women had been hiding their true feminine nature to “be taken seriously at work”?

  • rick

    Slip into something slinky and make me a martini…

    It is turning, isn’t it?

    Okay ladies of HUS: Post your tastefully cheese-cakey pics in honor of traditional gender roles. We’re all counting on you.

  • rick

    To commenter #1:

    Life in society has always involves conformity to one degree or another. IT is only the most callow adolescent thinking that says “I refuse to conform to other peoples’ expectations”.

    Polite, peaceful society is all about conforming to social norms and relationships are no different.

    If some girl wants to be an unfeminine pain in the neck, or wear dumpy birkenstocks that go with her hairy legs, by all means go ahead. But then expect men to be exactly as they feel like being, and do not complain.

  • Jack

    Is there a way to get femininity back? For women and men to work productively side by side without sublimating their natural differences? If women return to acting feminine, and ultimately being feminine, will men respond positively?

    I think so. It will probably come back naturally if we simply stop telling women to do otherwise. The claim that women need to become masculine, or androgynous, to participate as peers in society is ideological, not empirical or practical. There are plenty of cultures where women are successful in business and public life while retaining their femininity.

  • Dogsquat

    Dear Kate,

    Most men want women to be feminine. I’ve known A LOT of men, and the ones who don’t like feminine women I can count on the fingers of two fingers.

    I’ve dated (as in been in relationships with) several women. Some of them were very feminine, and some were as you describe – not liking to get “gussied up” . In every case, I liked the non-gussy types in spite of that. They were cool enough to overcome their lack of femininity.

    Throw a little femininity in the mix. Use the real kind – not the helpless, eyelash batting stuff, or the bitchy, entitled crap. I’ll bet it sets your man’s tail a-wagging and has him volunteering to fight dragons for you. It can be as subtle as a comment, or your head placed on his shoulder, or a sexy walk across the room followed by a glance. Like I said – it’s not a tearing down/rebuilding of everything you are as a human. It’s like a dash of spice in a bubbling pot.

    Rather than thinking of it as changing who you are, think of it like giving your guy a gift.

    Just a sincerely non-judgmental, admittedly non-solicited bit of advice from a stranger who really, really likes women.

    Sincerely,

    Dogsquat

  • Women are having difficulty finding good men because they themselves are the good men they are looking for.

    Eh. They are trying to be manly, without the good part

  • In the other hand, betas are trying to become the cute girls they dream about

  • The key is to act more like who you really are, by breaking free of the cultural indoctrination that has us all in its grip.

    Hell yes.

  • Bob

    Yes! Keep peeling the layers off that onion that is your self until you reach the real you!

  • SayWhaat

    Women should recognise that every step up they take on the career ladder will reduce the number of men who are ABOVE THEM on the career ladder.

    Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?

    • @SayWhaat

      Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?

      Interesting you should say this. I just received the following email from a male who wishes to remain anonymous:

      “My niece, age 27, supervises a group of people. If she wants something to get done she asks one of the women, invariably from state schools. She is increasingly frustrated by the bad behavior and generally bad attitude of the young men… Ivy League grads, no less… who are trying to find themselves, take no initiatives, and whine a lot… I have heard the same kind of role reversal stories from other business people… all of which suggests that these women have won, but at a price. How is a woman to be feminine when the men in her life, the men she works with and dates, are so inapt to act like men?”

  • @johnny milfquest

    That Stuart Schneiderman quote is PURE GOLD.

    it is.

    women are so hard and tough now — they are the men they want to find — that men are not inspired to be masculine, protective, and gallant.

    great post, susan.

    and of course, here is the female counterargument: they can’t trust men to take care of them, so they *have* to be tough and self sufficient.

    but no man wants to commit to a ballbuster.

    catch 22.

  • @yohami

    “They are trying to be manly, without the good part”

    good point. they are still erratic and capricious and emotional, but now hard as nails.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Throw a little femininity in the mix. Use the real kind – not the helpless, eyelash batting stuff, or the bitchy, entitled crap. I’ll bet it sets your man’s tail a-wagging and has him volunteering to fight dragons for you. It can be as subtle as a comment, or your head placed on his shoulder, or a sexy walk across the room followed by a glance.

    I totally agree. In my opinion, a feminine personality can pretty easily turn a girl who’s a 6 into an 8 or an 8 into a 10. There’s something about it that stirs the man inside and makes him want to come out.

    That said, men can’t wait for women to start shaking their hips like Shakira to start fighting dragons. Men have to be men if they ever expect women to be women.

  • Brian

    Are you saying that women should lie or put on a facade in order to attract a man?

    You already ARE lying to men by being a feminist and denying us the femininity we desire. Deep down, down below the magazine and academic propaganda, you don’t want to be a man and men don’t want you to be one either. Being anything other than a woman is cheating yourself and all men out of happiness. Got it?

  • Jack

    Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?

    It’s the nature of most organizational hierarchies that the higher you go, the fewer the number of people above you. So more men stepping up necessarily means fewer women in those positions.

    Also if you look at employment stats for white collar professions, it’s not evident that there is a preponderance of women, or even a commensurate number of women. Men are still ‘overrepresented’, statistically speaking. Women do hold the majority of positions in certain fields (e.g. areas of healthcare, education, public admin), but not across the broader economy.

    The status problem for women doesn’t seem to arise from their specific professional role, and a lack of males in superior roles, but from the broader social status that these roles confer. Basically women at a given strata prefer men at a higher strata, and once they achieve even a modicum of success, they’re necessarily targetting a relatively elite group of men. This has nothing to do with the mix of sexes, rather the proportional distribution of status across the population. For example, all high status professionals could be male and this would still result in a ‘shortage’ of males for women in the next lower social strata.

    My niece, age 27, supervises a group of people. If she wants something to get done she asks one of the women, …

    This smacks of bias more so than an indication of social conditions. She can’t find any men who’ll listen to her? That’s not a good sign, and something that she should learn to rectify or she’s going to get stuck in her career. Female managers and executives have developed a reputation for forming cliques in organizations (aka girls clubs). And it’s regarded as a warning sign when they do so.

  • Tasmin

    I agree that summer is a great time to embrace the beauty and power of true femininity. The season where skin comes out to play is an interesting test of how a woman sees herself – and how she wants to be seen. I find it extremely attractive when I see a women who is different, who does not participate in the race to the shortest skirt, who is not afraid to stand on her own outside of the herd mentality; a women who has power from within.

    This doesn’t mean she can’t show some skin – but there are many ways to achieve that – and the saying “leave something to the imagination”, while cliche, still plays a stronger hand with me than the less-is-more approach. I think if a women were to embrace even half of your list, she would be surprised by how positively they were received.

    I think this topic should be revisited just prior to halloween – as it seems that every year the bar is lowered in terms of women’s costumes. I’m no prude, but I think it is indicative of broken link between feminine beauty and the modern notion of female attractiveness. Cheap sexuality has seemingly won out. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I have no interest in women who may very well fight to be valued based on their intellect by day but then peel down to appeal to the most primal receptors of men by night. I think being a Lady means you strive to have gender-neutral qualities without compromising your uniquely female attributes.

    I have been longing for the return of the Lady for quite some time. And my desire is not driven by some romanticized throwback to when gender roles were rigid – though I do find it interesting that there seems to be a trend in romanticizing the days where certain things, for right or wrong, were easier to define.

    I think our society is stunted by some kind of optionality-disorder. While the pendulum swings, we grow increasingly conflicted by the sheer breadth of opportunities. Unfortunately most of the new opportunities were born out of the destruction (or devaluing) of the old. I think being a Lady died by way of the feminist goal of gender equity. By means of demonizing the feminine traits, behaviors, and demeanors that were (wrongfully) associated with subordination to men, femininity and gender equity were cast into a mutually exclusive pairing. This quickly devolved into empowerment via emulation. Similar to how base behaviors in male sexuality have been embraced by women as a form of empowerment, many other masculine traits have become appropriated by the modern women in her quest to achieve equality. I think this has created a very confusing social environment for both men and women. I don’t think it matters whether those traits are generally viewed as positive or negative, the larger issue is about the process of ignoring the natural differences in favor of equity-at-all-cost.

    Regarding optionality, women can assume a wide variety roles now, which is a good thing, but when the ability to assume these roles comes at the cost of abandoning or ignoring gender differences, this creates a system in which real power, real equity is constantly fleeting because these roles are not anchored in anything real. The system is completely reliant on a constant buy-in by the participants. And I think that we are seeing at best a passive buy-in from men – leaving women in a state of constant conflict. Instead of the optimism and lightness that comes from expanding opportunity – more choices, I think we see an anxiety stemming from either a constant analysis of the opportunity costs of various options or disappointment in the realization that while people may pretend that finding a mate and nesting is not a primary directive of being human – many of these additional opportunities are in fact detrimental to this pursuit (perhaps goes to Johnny’s comment on career advancement- or even the long-discussed limiting effect of promiscuity) and not – as they have been repeatedly told, automatically supportive.

    In my meager opinion, if femininity is embraced within these expanding roles and opportunities, women would feel much more anchored, and thus powerful, content and happier. I’m not saying women are not happy or unable to find contentment – but within the context of interacting with men, and certainly within the pursuit of a relationship, there are some fundamental forces being overridden.

    Outliers aside, I think that these natural forces are at work. Not just because we can see how these predispositions play out in a multitude of situations throughout life, but because I firmly believe that as a man, my desire (and high level of attraction) for feminine qualities is indicative of powers at work beyond a conscious buy-in to any particular social construct.

    In fact I believe that collectively, our innate knowledge of the opposite gender is so deeply rooted that much of the background anxiety in ‘modern’ society is due to ignoring, subordinating, and/or manipulating those unique and complimentary attributes of men and women. And this feels like a pretty big price to pay, particularly since it seems as if it is playing out in the form of some reversion to a gender-neutral mean.

    Just as ‘real men’ are rapidly becoming an endangered species, the feminine woman has fallen into the obscure in favor of girls who routinely embrace unabashed aggression, vulgarity, and cheap sexuality in place of the grace, tact, and subtle beauty that women (and men) used to openly hold in high regard. And I think those attributes are the very ones that best play into the receptors of the male mind – both above and below the belt, if you will.

    As women lap up the detritus of the likes of Chelsea Handler and fawn over the romanticized self-indulgence of the Sex/City type media, they are attaching to traits that are furthest from the qualities most conducive for the attraction and formation of a relationship with a real man. I think there are many parallels between the decline of femininity that play out in very similar ways as sexual choices/behaviors in terms of ignoring/overriding male preferences under the false pretense of equality or power. Again, its fine to behave any way you like, but women are cheating themselves if they think those traits are viewed more positively than embracing femininity. If I’m wrong, I’d be curious to hear if any women feel as if exhibiting more masculine behaviors/traits – even going into the vulgar culture, has attracted the kind of men they find attractive themselves. Or if they found that those behaviors tend to place them in the “F” only or date-but-not-marry category of that male laddering system previously discussed. I tend to think that a lot of guys find those traits amusing, fun, and/or sexually attractive in the short-term. But eventually they all have to meet mom – and what is fun or attractive in the short-term can turn tedious, even ugly, in a hurry.

    • @Tasmin

      Similar to how base behaviors in male sexuality have been embraced by women as a form of empowerment, many other masculine traits have become appropriated by the modern women in her quest to achieve equality. I think this has created a very confusing social environment for both men and women. I don’t think it matters whether those traits are generally viewed as positive or negative, the larger issue is about the process of ignoring the natural differences in favor of equity-at-all-cost.

      One of the things I feel I have to do frequently here is argue that gender differences are biological. There is enormous resistance to this idea among feminists, even as the science advances rapidly proving it so. Nearly every study contrasting male and female physiology as it relates to behavior is dismissed as junk science in the feminist media. They’ll go down kicking and screaming in the end, declaring that the world is flat.

      In fact I believe that collectively, our innate knowledge of the opposite gender is so deeply rooted that much of the background anxiety in ‘modern’ society is due to ignoring, subordinating, and/or manipulating those unique and complimentary attributes of men and women. And this feels like a pretty big price to pay, particularly since it seems as if it is playing out in the form of some reversion to a gender-neutral mean.

      Yes! This background anxiety strikes me as an insidious sort of low hum, likes insects buzzing. It’s always there, distracting, making communication a bit more difficult, and generally making people a bit uncomfortable. I think people find relief from it by retreating to the company of others exactly like themselves, and we wind up with pods of people who become entrenched and strident in their views.

      its fine to behave any way you like, but women are cheating themselves if they think those traits are viewed more positively than embracing femininity.

      I want to second this. It really is fine to behave any way you like. I’m not telling women they have to be feminine. I’m appealing to women who want to attract men. Most men want feminine women. If you talk and dress like a trucker, you may find an outlier who just can’t get enough, but the number of men who feel that way is small.

      I tend to think that a lot of guys find those traits amusing, fun, and/or sexually attractive in the short-term. But eventually they all have to meet mom – and what is fun or attractive in the short-term can turn tedious, even ugly, in a hurry.

      I’ve got all my money riding on this, and so do a bunch of young women who read here. Many men have said this – I hope that their actions match their words in the end.

  • Lucy

    1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.
    2. Playfulness huh? Sounds an awful lot like ditzyness to me. No thanks, not interested.
    3. I’m not going to beat around the bush for the mere sake of being subtle.
    4. Just because men perceive does not mean it is the truth. My partner (male) is far more emotional than I will ever be and I’m not planning on faking to become the ‘sensitive type’ even if he did so desire it.
    5. I like pants. Get over it.
    6. Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.

    @Kate
    I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?

  • “she is increasingly frustrated by the bad behavior and generally bad attitude of the young men… Ivy League grads, no less… who are trying to find themselves, take no initiatives, and whine a lot”…..why would she expect Ivy League grads to have a better attitude than state college grads?

    Assuming that she has hiring authority for the people who are going to work for her…and in most professional environments within corporations, managers do have ultimate authority over hiring for their groups, all the widespread bitching about HR aside…if the men on her team have a bad attitude, she needs to reevaluate her hiring criteria. And get rid of a couple of the people with especially bad attitudes as a signal to the others.

  • beta_plus

    Lose weight. Stop being fat. 40 BMI is not healthy. Having a waist that is larger than mine is NOT attractive (I’m between 33 and 34 waist – the American female average is 34.5). Did I mention stop being so ridiculously fat to the point where I worry that you’ll “let yourself go” when you’re pregnant and give our (well, I hope it’s ours, not like I can legally enforce it) child pre-natal diabetes?

    As awesome as this blog is, it has not addressed the problem of female obesity. And that, BY FAR, is the thing that turns off men the most.

    • @beta plus

      As awesome as this blog is, it has not addressed the problem of female obesity. And that, BY FAR, is the thing that turns off men the most.

      Is obesity a female problem? Are more American women than men obese? If not, then I think it’s reasonable to assume that obese folks will find each other. Men who are fit and want a fit partner can certainly find one.
      If the problem of obesity is shared equally by the sexes, then I see no reason to single out women for fat shaming.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    As awesome as this blog is, it has not addressed the problem of female obesity. And that, BY FAR, is the thing that turns off men the most.

    This is an interesting point. I’m not sure if Susan would like to add fat shaming to her slut shaming campaign…wouldn’t that distract the audience? Too many objectives? Also my guess is that most women that read this are young enough so they are probably not as fat. I live close to universities and most young women here range from chubby to skinny. So far the few landwhales I had spotted are part of the working masses.

  • Anonymous

    Women are having difficulty finding good men because they themselves are the good men they are looking for.

    Oh my fucking God, hand me a puke bucket. I’ve never heard anything more narcissistic in my entire life.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Duh, Anonymous, the quote was meant as a criticism of the homogenization of the sexes in our society, not an assertion that women should be more self-reliant.

  • (R)Evolutionary

    Great post, Susan.

    While I laud your approach and your challenge, I do not hold out much hope for its wide and sweeping success, due to the advanced atrophic-sclerosis of the femininity muscle of most XX-chromosomed individuals in the greater CONUS/NATO orbit. This hardened atrophy of femininity is most accurately evinced by the first commenter, Kate, who appears to be so disconnected from her feminine self that it seems to be an effort to get back there, and regards the feminine way of being as inauthentic.

    If it’s so much trouble to be a woman, Kate, there are hormones and surgeries that will remedy your femininity difficulties forthwith.

    Personally, for the single men in the house, I recommend cultivating social circles in the arts. I’ve met some charming young women with much femininity intact in dance and performing arts communities. Of course, they too are aware of their femininity-enhanced SMV, thus, gentlemen, bring your A-game.

    Thanks, Susan, also for highlighing that Stuart Schneiderman quote. The link from which it came is full of gems, including this one:

    “I bet you did not know that [Sean} Hannity had become a radical feminist.” Pure genius.

    I had seen the link to Stuart’s site on your page but hadn’t ever explored it much. I’ve found a trove of excellent material.

    • (R)Evolutionary
      Stuart Schneiderman is awesome. He’s super smart, always interesting, and prolific. I forget how he found me, but he’s a great ally. He’s tight with Dr. Helen, and Instapundit links to him quite a bit. I’m jealous.

  • Jack

    Are more American women than men obese?

    Yes, by about 30% and it sets in earlier for women.

  • SayWhaat

    It’s the nature of most organizational hierarchies that the higher you go, the fewer the number of people above you. So more men stepping up necessarily means fewer women in those positions.

    Whether it’s a man or a woman in those positions, as long as the best person for the position (in terms of ability and acumen) is hired for the role, I don’t have a problem.

    For example, all high status professionals could be male and this would still result in a ‘shortage’ of males for women in the next lower social strata.

    Sorry, I’m confused. Are you saying that high status professional males in one strata would be ineligible to the women in the next lower social strata? As in, if every man was a doctor, then there would be a shortage of males for women who are secretaries? I don’t follow, can you clarify what you mean?

  • SayWhaat

    This hardened atrophy of femininity is most accurately evinced by the first commenter, Kate, who appears to be so disconnected from her feminine self that it seems to be an effort to get back there, and regards the feminine way of being as inauthentic.

    I sort of agree. I remember when I was much younger, I used to think that it was more important to behave like a tomboy, because it seemed like everybody in the movies/mass media gave attention to those girls. They were the independent, rough-and-tumbleweed sort of girls who men found adorable and, once they received male attention, blossomed into feminine creatures.

    A few years ago, I worked part-time as staff in my school’s gym, and one of my co-workers remarked that I was probably the most feminine girl out of everyone we worked with. I took it as a semi-insult because in my mind, feminine = weak and flirty-stupid. I thought he wasn’t taking me seriously as a person.

    Personally, for the single men in the house, I recommend cultivating social circles in the arts. I’ve met some charming young women with much femininity intact in dance and performing arts communities.

    X 100! Mothers, put your daughters in dance and make them stick with it! I’m not talking hip-hop or jazz where girls basically learn to gyrate and twirl — have them study a classical form with discipline and structure. I studied classical Indian dance since the age of 4 and my training shows even in my daily movements (one of my professors once commented on how gracefully I raised my hand to ask questions in class, lol).

  • Grindl

    “So far the few landwhales I had spotted are part of the working masses.”

    Steph: just curious, but what exactly do you mean by “the working masses?”

    Are you referring to blue collar people, perhaps, or just working class as in
    “have to work for a living?” Are you independently wealthy yourself? I, alas, must work for a living and my spouse is blue collar.

    I am not endorsing “fattitude”; it’s an huge problem in American culture and it’s an economic wallop to our healthcare system, possibly more even than sluttery. I’d like to see healthier eating and exercising marketed as a sign of patriotism; i.e., do your part to keep healthcare costs down — could be a winner!

    I have no quibble with these femininity suggestions altho acting “girly” on the job is inadvisable; in a way, you almost have to neuter yourself a bit. I’ve always tried to go with calm and professional and absolutely no emotional outbursts; no screeching, no tears (have witnessed this and it’s awful). Depending on your profession, showing vulnerability may be seen as weak and ineffective; this is not going to earn you a good performance review.

    • @Grindl

      . I’d like to see healthier eating and exercising marketed as a sign of patriotism; i.e., do your part to keep healthcare costs down — could be a winner!

      It’s funny you should say this. When I was writing about the low Italian birthrate, I recalled that Mussolini urged Italians to have more babies “for the fatherland.” I believe Italians are still sensitive to this today – they strongly resent any notion that they should have more children for the sake of the country.

      I have no quibble with these femininity suggestions altho acting “girly” on the job is inadvisable; in a way, you almost have to neuter yourself a bit. I’ve always tried to go with calm and professional and absolutely no emotional outbursts; no screeching, no tears (have witnessed this and it’s awful). Depending on your profession, showing vulnerability may be seen as weak and ineffective; this is not going to earn you a good performance review.

      I agree for the most part. However, in my experience, embracing femininity improved my performance and advancement. I’ve worked with plenty of women who go totally masculine in the office – every one of them was difficult and unpleasant.

  • DaveD

    Point 2 is DEAD ON. The others are very good too but #2 is a point I lament to my friends about often. I tease women all the time. While some flirt back, few ever tease me back. When a woman DOES tease me about something playfully, it’s like a spotlight suddenly turned on her.

    Not to be mean, Lucy is a prime example of what most guys I know DON’T want in a woman…complete with the trucker mouth. I’m guessing she’s no older than 22.

    DD

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Are you referring to blue collar people, perhaps, or just working class as in
    “have to work for a living?” Are you independently wealthy yourself? I, alas, must work for a living and my spouse is blue collar.

    I commented that students were not fat IME so I separate them from the people at work. And I meant every level and everyone that is not a student. Susan started this blog for college and is moving to young professionals so I though worth mentioning this. Masses = group of people, working= that go to work. I’m working class myself (I’m going to start working and at entry level here after been a very well payed professional in my home country and I couldn’t be happier! 🙂 I love working I used to work from 6 am to 12 am) so I don’t discriminate my group, but I don’t idealize it either, but in this case is more a case of: every time I go around the colleges I see many fit people and every time I visit an office I see a meaningful proportion of them fat to high levels. Capisce? Really why are you expecting the worst?

  • SayWhaat

    every time I go around the colleges I see many fit people and every time I visit an office I see a meaningful proportion of them fat to high levels.

    It’s easier to have a routine workout regimen when you’re in college, less so when you’re working full-time. I used to work out after class, but now that I’m working full-time I realized that if I’m going to stay fit, I’m going to have to start waking up really early on the weekdays just to squeeze it in.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Tasmin
    Your comment about Halloween costume reminded me of this add.

    [img]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rUiV_Hh74[/img]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rUiV_Hh74

  • NGII

    @SayWhaat

    For example, all high status professionals could be male and this would still result in a ‘shortage’ of males for women in the next lower social strata.

    Sorry, I’m confused. Are you saying that high status professional males in one strata would be ineligible to the women in the next lower social strata? As in, if every man was a doctor, then there would be a shortage of males for women who are secretaries? I don’t follow, can you clarify what you mean?

    I’ll give you a made-up example of what I understand from what Jack has said:

    Say there are 200 doctors and 400 nurses. All the doctors are males while 75% of nurses are females. There should be one male for each female. But because of hypergamic nature of females, only 200 female nurses can get a male doctor. 100 leftover female nurses never consider the 100 male nurses as possible partners. From what the 300 female nurses perceive, there is a *shortage* of males for them.

    I’m a guy and I secretly wish this is not true. The only way the 100 male nurses can make visible to the 300 female nurses is to have game. All the male nurses I’ve seen at work have tight game like Athol Kay.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It’s easier to have a routine workout regimen when you’re in college, less so when you’re working full-time. I used to work out after class, but now that I’m working full-time I realized that if I’m going to stay fit, I’m going to have to start waking up really early on the weekdays just to squeeze it in.

    That is my guess, but still given that Susan is mostly aiming to college/post-college age women she might not feel the need to bring this point out, so that is why I mentioned the comment about maybe her target audience not needing fat shaming advice.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I’m a guy and I secretly wish this is not true. The only way the 100 male nurses can make visible to the 300 female nurses is to have game. All the male nurses I’ve seen at work have tight game like Athol Kay.

    Not necessarily if we go by Hawaiian libertarian a woman that considers nursing for a guy something special and high status. Maybe because she thinks it takes balls to pick a more female orientated work might find him attractive. Of course this will probably be someone that is not a nurse herself. I think that women usually consider high status men that are good at something they are not good at.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?

    What does this mean exactly? For most of us, whenever we hear “man up” or “start acting like a man,” it usually just means “do something that makes some woman’s life easier.”

    So I ask: What do guys exactly do to “step up” that they aren’t already doing? And more importantly, what’s in it for them to do so?

    BACK ON TOPIC…

    Excellent post Susan. I couldn’t agree more. I run into a good number of girls every week that I can be very attracted to, wouldn’t mind getting physical with, or even semi casually date for a short period of time. But that’s it. All they inspire is a boner and indifference.

    It’s literally been years since I’ve come across any girl that brought about the slightest consideration of going on my “date seriously/marry” ladder. I’ve always said that most girls weren’t classy enough for that anymore, but I think now you can replace “classy” with “feminine” (although class is certainly a sub category).

  • Androgyny makes me happy; femininity feels like I’m in drag for my own damn gender. That started long before I was even aware that feminism was a thing– literally, when I was three years old I would sulk if made to wear princess dresses.

    So, no, not all women are “naturally” feminine. If someone doesn’t want my blunt, unable to read emotions, jeans and no makeup, walking like a man self, then they shouldn’t date me. But I’d rather have the one dude who likes me the way I am then ten guys who like someone I’m pretending to be.

  • So, no, not all women are “naturally” feminine.

    And not “all” men are naturally masculine, and not all people can process carbs, so what. NAWALT gets tiring quick.

  • Well, yohami, if people would stop saying that “who I really am” is someone I’m really not, then I’d stop arguing with them. 😛

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?

    Because they can date nice looking women who are LOWER on the socio-economic ladder. That’s much easier!

  • Jack

    @SayWhaat

    NGII addressed your question to me, but to recap – it’s that no matter what men do, the fact of women experiencing elevated status means that these women are going to be selecting from proportionally fewer men. It’s no ones fault, and there are going to be trade offs for women if men do resume their former proportions in the workplace because they’d do so by replacing women.

    The relationship frustrations of professional women are commonly blamed on the failings of men – men aren’t stepping up to make themselves eligible for these amazing women. But this claim is typically based on a generalization of trends among low status men (e.g. lack of education, motivation, foresight etc..). When you look at the behavior of college educated men, it’s actually been very stable in the sense that they’re still pursuing careers, marrying, accumulating assets etc.. So where there is a problem for these women, it’s typically not going to be due to a lack of eligible men.

  • tito

    prediction: no women will take a bit of this advice.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Yes, yes, and double-plus yes.

    I’m a long-time reader, first-time poster.

    Anyhow, I myself prefer a good, feminine woman. I used to eat up the feminist claptrap until I read Whiskey, then Roissy, then The Spearhead. At that point, I realized, “You know what? Who says I have to get with some unfeminine harridan? I like womanly women — and they definitely still exist, no matter what the feminists say or think.”

    Granted, I can still be friends with a butch-type, but I really feel it for the womanly ones.

    I find this nostalgia trend on TV interesting. Also, thank you for this blog, Susan Walsh.

    • @CrisisEraDynamo

      Thanks for de-lurking, nice to meet you! I think it’s really important for men to draw the line on this. Reward feminine women! When women see that it works, they’re more likely to ditch the cultural programming.

  • Peter Abrolard

    Do you, uh, quite understand what Mad Men is about? I’m not entirely sure you do. The whole point of the show is that it undermines the the romanticized idea of the past (pre-feminist and pre-Freidan, as you put it) by showing how miserable gender roles make everyone, or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons. I suspect that Pan-Am will be similar. And the only reason The Playboy Club exists is that America as a whole has the approximate psychosexual maturity of a 13 year old boy, so a TV show about a softcore porn magazine is automatically going to have a huge audience.

  • Melmo

    or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons.

    I think that you’re alone in your interpretation.

  • beta_plus

    @Susan

    It doesn’t matter if men are equally overweight as far as what men find desirable. The point of this post is to try to get women to become more feminine and thus have happier dating lives. While most men do understand that we should not follow our physical desires in pursuing women for positive relationships, we are simply not capable of ignoring it entirely. All of what you mentioned in your post, while laudable goals, is not going to matter to us if she is overweight. It’s the equivalent of telling a man to improve his chances w/women w/o adopting alpha characteristics.

    The problem of female obesity goes double if the point is to bear and raise children. The pregnancy is not going to occur in our bodies. Her being overweight:

    1) reduces the chances of conceiving
    2) endangers the child’s health
    3) is a bad indicator that she is going to have the self control and discipline necessary to be a good mother

    Finally, being overweight is really bad for you. If we get married and I have to assume your financial responsibilities, it will very likely lead to higher medical costs that as a man I will be at least partially responsible for.

    Women really have a problem confronting this part of the equation. It would appear to be on the level of unpleasantness that men have to deal with “asshole” characteristics that make men like Tucker Max and Roissy successful.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Peter Abrolard

    Do you, uh, quite understand what Mad Men is about? I’m not entirely sure you do. The whole point of the show is that it undermines the the romanticized idea of the past (pre-feminist and pre-Freidan, as you put it) by showing how miserable gender roles make everyone, or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons.

    Haven’t seen the show, so I can’t speak to that. But still, I hope TV plays it straight more often. Men really are different from women, and these differences do not make women stupider.

    Besides, women today are highly privileged: men have many duties to women, but women have absolutely no duties to men. Men are “sexists” and “pigs” for stating what kind of women they like (or flirting with several women), but women are “empowered” and “taking control of their sexuality” when they state what they want in a man or flirt at will. Men have to “man up” to make some woman’s life easier, but if you ask a woman to act more ladylike, you become some kind of evil Talibanesque sexist.

    Maybe things were broken back in the day, but the current state of affairs is a terrible replacement.

    Both men and women should be able to flirt in peace without judgement, the way I see it.

  • 1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.
    2. Playfulness huh? Sounds an awful lot like ditzyness to me. No thanks, not interested.
    3. I’m not going to beat around the bush for the mere sake of being subtle.
    4. Just because men perceive does not mean it is the truth. My partner (male) is far more emotional than I will ever be and I’m not planning on faking to become the ‘sensitive type’ even if he did so desire it.
    5. I like pants. Get over it.
    6. Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.

    Notes to self:
    1. Avoid this “girl” at all costs.
    2. Counsel her partner on the benefits of the red pill and Game.

  • OhioStater

    I’ve read men are better at maintaining acquaintances whereas women skew toward deeper relationships with friends.

    Google+ is Google’s Facebook killer, but so far its user base is 88% male.

    Some suggested this is because the early adopter tech crowd is nerdy and male. That said Facebook had a balanced gender ratio from day one.

    I think what’s going on with Google+ is deeper than that. The whole point of Google+ is you can pretty easily restrict what you share to friends, family, coworkers and / or people you don’t know.

    Generally speaking women aren’t that into sharing with people they don’t know. These “circles” features won’t work as a selling point with women. Also Google+ doesn’t have fields for favorite books, movies, or interests. It’s slightly formal like LinkedIn, but clean the way Facebook used to be.

    I think Facebook becomes the female network and Google+ the male network.

  • Google+ will sink

  • Brendan

    The whole point of the show is that it undermines the the romanticized idea of the past (pre-feminist and pre-Freidan, as you put it) by showing how miserable gender roles make everyone, or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons.

    Yes, but it backfired. What you had was a lot of women swooning over the Draper character, who was supposed to be a villain archetype of the abuses of the pre-Friedan partriarchy. Didn’t play that way with a lot of female viewers, some of whom openly lamented that men weren’t, in some ways, more like Draper than they are today (sans the cheating, the drinking, etc.). I think that’s what Susan’s talking about. The show was definitely *intended* to portray “the bad old days” as a kind of anti-nostalgia antidote, but that backfired in a big way among a good number of the female viewers.

    Generally speaking women aren’t that into sharing with people they don’t know. These “circles” features won’t work as a selling point with women. Also Google+ doesn’t have fields for favorite books, movies, or interests. It’s slightly formal like LinkedIn, but clean the way Facebook used to be.

    I think Facebook becomes the female network and Google+ the male network.

    Except that Google+ allows you easier control than FB does over whom you share things with. The functionality is there in FB, too, but like many other FB functionalities, is buried in menus and not user-friendly.

    Having said that, Google+ is going to bomb. It may attract some geeks, but that’s it. The switching costs are way too high, given that virtually everyone is already on Facebook. It was a nice try by Google, though — but they are way too far behind the 8-ball when it comes to social –> it isn’t in Google’s DNA, really.

    • @Peter,Brendan

      Whatever the original intention of Mad Men, it struck something like longing among it’s viewers. And it’s not just with women – men go crazy for Joanie and rave about Betty Draper’s beauty, but no one wants Peggy the ugly duckling career girl. If Peggy was supposed to represent the ideal female, they shouldn’t have made her personal life such a mess. She’s also the least attractive of the female characters, which doesn’t help.

      The relationships in the show don’t seem any more dysfunctional than contemporary ones, and the visuals are a treat.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I agree for the most part. However, in my experience, embracing femininity improved my performance and advancement.

    I will go on a limb and say that a woman that has a negative idea of anything related with femininity spents a great deal of the time second guessing her choices at work, measuring how it will come across. That per se should be enough to change your behavior in contrast with a woman that is not trying to proof anything but get the work done. I imagine that if you needed help or assistance you weren’t spending anytime worrying about looking weak, while a woman that wants to be perceived as a leader will very likely try to do all the job alone or only with trusted friends taking more time than any other woman that doesn’t.
    I’ve worked with plenty of women who go totally masculine in the office – every one of them was difficult and unpleasant.

    The funny thing is that anger/difficult are also emotional responses, no one that has to work 8 hours under the same roof of other people should want to make this time harder than it should be in anyone else, specially not a guy. Thus changing femininity for masculinity doesn’t really make the woman look good at all, just scary, unapproachable and emotional in a different way, YMMV.

  • Nice post. Yes, men want feminine women. The masculine nature of most modern women is a huge turn off. Who wants that, except perhaps the the lesbian undercurrent that drives most of modern feminism.

    And yes, flying was once a cultured experienced, where people dressed up and got served by pretty stewardesses. Who can possibly say that the modern experience of flying is somehow better? Now it is little more than a huge cattle drive, with the cattle dressed up like slobs and rude idiots.

  • Renton

    Mad Men is written by women. Fuck that show.

    Can someone explain the quote to me? I’m not quite sure what it means.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Susan Walsh

    Thanks. Glad to be here. Though Mad Men seems intriguing, it doesn’t sound like my kind of thing.

  • Vae Victus

    Men don’t ‘love to be teased’, women love to be teased.

  • Grindl

    Love Mad Men – great acting, writing and yes Betty is beautiful, but what a horrible, unloving mother; am I the only once who’s noticed that? Can’t be.

    Question for you Susan and no mockery, snark intended whatsoever:
    You’ve changed your position on issues apparently quite a bit marching thru life (nothing wrong with that). To compete in the career world, and it’s only going to get worse as the economy continues to “transition,” a woman needs a bit of toughness, sometimes a lot. This seems to be a turn-off to some men, especially the ones congregating here. Also, men apparently don’t care that much about a woman’s job title, education, etc. — youth and beauty, fertility matter most, so maybe breast implants or rhinoplasty are a better investment than a scrap of paper from a university? Roissy has said he’d pay for a daughter’s beautification efforts if he had a daughter (not likely to happen).

    If you could do it over again, would you attend college and grad school? Was the bang worth all the bucks (no, I’m not talking about that kind of bang!). Do you recommend college/grad school for today’s young women? Graduates now are racking up some enormous debts for degrees they may not really use or need. Would you personally like to see women back peddle on the careers and focus more on wife/motherhood skills; it would open more jobs up for males.

    • @Grindl
      Sorry to delay in answering your question – I was away this weekend.

      You’ve changed your position on issues apparently quite a bit marching thru life (nothing wrong with that).

      How so? I don’t really think this is true – I see my life more as having gone with the flow. I have had very few changes of heart or philosophy in my life.

      To compete in the career world, and it’s only going to get worse as the economy continues to “transition,” a woman needs a bit of toughness, sometimes a lot.

      I disagree. What women need is strength, not toughness. In my professional experience, strong and smart women are rewarded with advancement. “Toughness” is too often women acting like men, implying aggression and competitiveness. I think this also depends on what a woman wants. Of the hundreds of professional women I have known, no more than half a dozen have wanted high-powered career success above all else – and those women are ball busters. They’re extremely effective, very masculine in their work styles, and either single, childless, or in a couple of cases, terrible mothers.

      Also, men apparently don’t care that much about a woman’s job title, education, etc. — youth and beauty, fertility matter most

      I’m not sure where you get your information but I think this statement is too simplistic. When a men takes the measure of a woman, he is not putting her career or education achievements at the top of the list of priorities. We know that men are very visually oriented – they are sexually attracted to women primarily based on looks. However, many intelligent men appreciate and even require an intelligent mate. I always drew admirers for my intelligence, but that probably wouldn’t have worked if I were ugly. I also wanted a highly intelligent man, and found such men compatible. I think it depends on whether men are seeking a relationship or something casual. For the former, intelligence will play a role, for the latter, not at all.

      If you could do it over again, would you attend college and grad school? Was the bang worth all the bucks (no, I’m not talking about that kind of bang!). Do you recommend college/grad school for today’s young women

      I would absolutely do it again. Getting an MBA opened up new worlds for me. It was definitely worth the investment. Do I recommend business school for today’s young women? First, I would say that I do not differentiate between the sexes. I recommend business school under the following circumstances:
      1. you desire to shift your career in a whole new direction
      2. an MBA will catapult you into a new earning bracket
      3. you can get into an excellent school

      In fact, from everything I’ve heard from lawyers I’d say the same is true for law school. Don’t spend the money unless you can study at a great program and get on the fast track in a field you’re very interested in.

      Re business school, I’m not sure it’s as valuable as it once was. Firms used to have “up and out” policies designed to phase young professionals out after two years so they could attend business school. Today I know several firms in Boston that would rather hold onto its young talent and encourage them to study for the CFA instead.

      Would you personally like to see women back peddle on the careers and focus more on wife/motherhood skills; it would open more jobs up for males.

      I would never recommend that women as a whole back peddle on careers. Nor am I interested in opening up jobs for males. I believe in gender equity, and believe that competition in the workplace is a good thing. Today women can compete as well as men. However, I have witnessed how difficult it is for women to have families and high-powered careers. When I reluctantly became a SAHM, I found to my disappointment that my working mom friends were quite annoyed. There was lots of eye rolling and “Really? Really Susan?” Over the years, I have found that mothers who work full-time are often resentful of SAHMs. I will also say that nearly all of the women I know who work full-time would like to quit altogether or go to a part-time schedule if they could. Most cannot afford it. I think that my generation’s feelings on the subject can be summed up as “We’re the women who have it all. Well, I don’t want it all.”

  • OhioStater

    I don’t social network switching costs are that high. I have 1,000 FB friends but it was pretty easy to isolate the 20 or so people to invite to Google plus. It was the early adopters that I see, talk to, and the people that comment on my post.

    Your friend is like retained earnings on a balance sheet whereas your true friends are this quarters earnings report.

    It seems like Google+ already has more than 1 million users with pent up demand from up to 10 million other people. It’s easy to turn your Gmail into Google plus and everyone has email.

    The only way they screw up is if the try to kill Facebook the way Microsoft tried to kill Netscape, by demanding all Gmail users do Google plus.

    A lot of Facebook users are sick of the games, ads, and privacy issues. Facebook started with highly educated people but it’s growth today comes from third world countries and former MySpace users.

    If that original Facebook crowd goes Google+, game over.

  • OhioStater

    Tsk tsk tsk. Typing on an iPhone is harder than it looks!

    Correction:
    1. I don’t think social networking switching costs are that high

    2. Your friend list is like retained earnings

  • Blues

    Whether it’s a man or a woman in those positions, as long as the best person for the position (in terms of ability and acumen) is hired for the role, I don’t have a problem.

    You’re missing the point, it’s not about which person is the best for the position, but that as women climb the ladder they’ll have a smaller group of men to choose or rather look up to and choose.

  • Blues

    It’s easier to have a routine workout regimen when you’re in college, less so when you’re working full-time. I used to work out after class, but now that I’m working full-time I realized that if I’m going to stay fit, I’m going to have to start waking up really early on the weekdays just to squeeze it in.

    And that’s the thing, you’re making an extra effort to stay in shape, most people out there just say “meh” and bloat like balloons.

  • Blues

    Is obesity a female problem? Are more American women than men obese? If not, then I think it’s reasonable to assume that obese folks will find each other. Men who are fit and want a fit partner can certainly find one.
    If the problem of obesity is shared equally by the sexes, then I see no reason to single out women for fat shaming.

    As sexist as it sounds, because they’re women and because unlike men their SMV is directly tied to her looks. Now, am i saying that men should let themselves go? no, but it’s far more a key point to women than men.

    I’m also not advocating for shaming for being fat, i am fat (think Brad Garret with a beer belly)and i was shamed about it as a kid and it’s not something that builds self steem, but i won’t advocate to overlook it either, i’m not saying people should be ripped super athletes but they should have somewhat good fitness level, whatever that means to you.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Yeah, staying in shape and not overeating is always a good idea, whatever your sex.

  • Matt T

    Shaming men for perceived low status (eg: “OMG what a loser/creeper/dork”) happens all the time. With this in mind, it’s a perfectly legitimate practice to shame women for being fat: in both cases, the SMV of the person is what’s being attacked.

  • DelFresco

    “Americans are in search of the feminine. Give yourself permission to be a woman. You know you want to…”

    I think there is much to this. I recall when I was in college in the 90’s girls who were *girly* (wore dresses occasionally, were femme) seemed a little out of place, but they were so intriguing. The pornified raunch thing strikes me as a lame attempt to get back some of what traditional femininity had.

    Well, like you pointed out Susan, compare the women of Mad Men to the Jersey Shore cast. That’ll give you an idea of what’s really appealing and what’s wrong these days.

  • Jules

    Lucy says:
    July 8, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.
    2. Playfulness huh? Sounds an awful lot like ditzyness to me. No thanks, not interested.
    3. I’m not going to beat around the bush for the mere sake of being subtle.
    4. Just because men perceive does not mean it is the truth. My partner (male) is far more emotional than I will ever be and I’m not planning on faking to become the ‘sensitive type’ even if he did so desire it.
    5. I like pants. Get over it.
    6. Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.

    @Kate
    I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?

    I totally agree with both of you. Women are different, not all women want to act feminine all the time. What we perceive today as feminine is a social construction from a long time ago, it doesn’t really exist. Native American women did not have a “feminine walk” or display a different “emotional intelligence. And while it might be beneficial to act nurturing and flirtatious when trying to find a man, the office is not the place for showing off how feminine you are!

    • @Jules

      Women are different, not all women want to act feminine all the time

      It’s not about acting feminine, it’s about being feminine. That is achieved by letting your natural femininity develop, without repressing it for fear of not measuring up to feminist ideals.

      What we perceive today as feminine is a social construction from a long time ago, it doesn’t really exist. Native American women did not have a “feminine walk” or display a different “emotional intelligence.

      Females are biologically dramatically different from males. Gender is not a social construct. Observe any preschool group of girls, and you will see femininity. It is only later that girls are taught to repress their natures to act (and think) like males, and shamed for feminine instincts.

      On what do you base you claim about Native American women? That strikes me as preposterous. Did Native American women not fulfill the role of primary nurturer with their children? Did their hips not naturally sway in a feminine way as a result of a very different physical body structure from males?

      nd while it might be beneficial to act nurturing and flirtatious when trying to find a man, the office is not the place for showing off how feminine you are!

      Being feminine in the office does not mean flirting with all the guys instead of doing good work. In my experience, being very good at my job, coupled with a pleasant, friendly and playful demeanor, worked very well in a professional setting. It was especially effective with men 🙂

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jules

    This culture-wide attempt to turn women into poor copies of men is a very sinister “social construction,” one too many men have been harmed by.

    I’ll give you this much: there is evidence that tomboyishness comes from genetic and prenatal factors (though it doesn’t usually lead to lesbianism) and that the office isn’t the place to get all lovey-dovey, since you’re there to work. However, us preferring nicer, more feminine women is no different than a woman’s preference for bold, confident alphas.

    Regarding the Native American thing, I know of no traditional culture that pretended that men and women were interchangeable, then tried to enforce this falsehood with shoddy attempts at thought control (I’m indicting modern culture, not you personally.)

    If a woman wants me to do for her, she must bring something to the table.

  • Dogsquat

    Blues said:

    “As sexist as it sounds, because they’re women and because unlike men their SMV is directly tied to her looks. Now, am i saying that men should let themselves go? no, but it’s far more a key point to women than men.”

    _________________

    I have a very nitpicky, ticky-tack comment about this. It’s not necessarily directed at you, either, but at the type of guy who consistently parrots the “It doesn’t matter what I look like! I’m a guy!” line.

    I know you’re acknowledging that being in shape is important to men, but I think you’re still understating how important it actually is, and why. To illustrate, I’ll give yet another long winded personal story. If you’re tired of my BS (and really – who could blame you?), just skip to the last few paragraphs.

    About six years ago, I got hurt really bad – like a month in the hospital bad. At the time, I was in a very strenuous branch of the military. Guys in my unit would eat 3 MREs (field rations) per day – that’s about 6,000 calories – and not gain an ounce of weight. We actually struggled to keep from turning into skin and bones.

    Now, when I got hurt, I still ate like I was humping 90lbs of gear and running after Ali Baba all the live-long day. As a result, I put on some weight. I got out of the service, and sat around for awhile. I was in a fair amount of pain and really depressed. I still ate like a grunt. I got a little spare tire.

    Now, I’m a sort-of decent looking guy (my mommy says I’m handsome, so I know it’s true). I’m tall and have good hair. I felt like ass, though. I wasn’t like I used to be – I felt broken, weak, and used up. I couldn’t take a deep breath when I tied my shoes – my gut was in the way. For whatever reason, girls would still tell my friends they thought I was cute.

    Long story short, I got better, started working out again, and eating like a human being instead of some MARPAT beast of burden. One day I was leaving my house to go to work (I was a bouncer at the time), and my roommate’s smokin’ hot girlfriend complimented me on my physique and asked for some workout/diet tips.

    I felt like a million bucks.

    I’d never had so many phone numbers/flirting/unsolicited grinding etc. offered to me as I did in the next six hours.

    Now, I looked pretty much the same as I did the night before. I act the same, basically stupid way all the time – so why did I get so much feminine attention that night?

    It’s because I felt great about myself for the first time in awhile, and it showed. I had a little extra swagger, and a big boost to my confidence.

    THAT is why being in shape matters to guys. It’s not 100% how you look – it’s 10000% how you feel about how you look.

    Maybe my game is weak, or I lack Shaolin-like state control, or I’m bone lazy at heart – but it’s way, way easier to get in shape than it is to get your game good enough that being out of shape truly doesn’t matter.

    That is a choice men get to make – spend 15-20 hours a week “gaming” women until they’re proficient enough to overcome 30lbs of gut-and-handles, or spend 5-7 hours/week throwing some iron and doing some old fashioned PT – I think both are equally effective at initially attracting women. One leaves you with a lot more free time. Use a little of that time to work on your game and the rest to work on your mission, and you’ll be unstoppable.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    THAT is why being in shape matters to guys. It’s not 100% how you look – it’s 10000% how you feel about how you look.”

    Exactly. Yesterday, for the first time in I can’t remember how long, a girl struck up a conversation with me and starting flirting. No extreme makeover since last week, no new wardrobe, just me radiating confidence. It’s pretty effing amazing.

  • Blues

    @Dogsquat: i read your whole comment and i agree with you, in fact that is my case, i exercise both to stay in shape AND to relieve work stress, having decent stamina for that weekend of mind blowing sex with an HB10 is just a nice bonus (mainly cause i still have to land said HB10, but i’m working on that).

    However i’ll say that i also exercised way before i learned game and even when i lost 50 pounds the results were not very different even with the solid confidence boost i got back then. To be fair i have not had “results” yet, but just by knowing game i at least have a better understanding where i stand with women instead of having this feeling of uncertainty wondering if i’m wasting my time or not on a girl, so why not having the best of both and keep it in balance?

  • Matt T

    Maybe my game is weak, or I lack Shaolin-like state control, or I’m bone lazy at heart – but it’s way, way easier to get in shape than it is to get your game good enough that being out of shape truly doesn’t matter.

    That is a choice men get to make – spend 15-20 hours a week “gaming” women until they’re proficient enough to overcome 30lbs of gut-and-handles, or spend 5-7 hours/week throwing some iron and doing some old fashioned PT – I think both are equally effective at initially attracting women. One leaves you with a lot more free time. Use a little of that time to work on your game and the rest to work on your mission, and you’ll be unstoppable.

    Congratulations on your success.

    Well, game comes in a lot of forms. For some people, it’s the sum of internal and external techniques they read in a book. For others, it’s offering cocaine to a girl to get her back to the house. If it works, it works.

  • GudEnuf

    Dogsquat

    Maybe my game is weak, or I lack Shaolin-like state control, or I’m bone lazy at heart – but it’s way, way easier to get in shape than it is to get your game good enough that being out of shape truly doesn’t matter.

    How long did it take you to get back in shape?

  • Mike C

    @Kate
    I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?

    @Lucy,
    .
    As Susan pointed out, these “rules” are for women interested in attracting men. If you are not interested in attracting men, then it is a moot point, and yes you should most definitely disregard them all.
    .
    Very interesting pushback on this. Really the other side of the coin to supplicating betas who refuse to accept they will have to learn some Game to become attractive to a wider population of women.
    .
    I do think some women are inherently more masculine, and that is OK, but I think many women act more masculine because it has been ingrained in them that makes them “empowered” and any inkling of traditional femininity is bad.
    .
    Excellent comment from Tasmin that really covers the bases. For Kate and Lucy, a question. Are you both heterosexual? If so, how has your current behavior worked in terms of your dating and relationships with men? If it working, more power to you. If not, and you are NOT getting what you want in terms of relationships with men, maybe it is time to put aside the feminist dogma just for a moment, and do some introspecting about what most men find attractive in women.

  • Mike C

    To compete in the career world, and it’s only going to get worse as the economy continues to “transition,” a woman needs a bit of toughness, sometimes a lot. This seems to be a turn-off to some men, especially the ones congregating here.
    .
    Don’t disagree with that. Career/work is one thing and sexual/romantic relationships another. It is not some Herculean feat to be “tough” in the workplace and then to some extent turn it off in your dating life.

  • This seems to be a turn-off to some men

    dating partners are not business competitors

  • BTW for the ones trying to get in shape, intermittent fasting is the shit

    Been doing it for about a month, already lost 4kg of fat (down to 21% BF), and no muscle loss so far. Six pack here we go

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

  • Lavazza

    Yohami: I am not so sure. I was once at an Ashtanga Vinyasa retreat for five weeks where I would have a light meal at 18, get to bed at 21, get up at 6 and then do breathing exercises and an aerobics type asana practice for 3 hours. Large breakfast at 9.30-10.00. Sure, people said that I looked more ripped, but when I got back I checked my weight and BF, and it had not changed much, so I think that impression came more from my sun tan giving more definition.

  • Tom

    You already ARE lying to men by being a feminist and denying us the femininity we desire. Deep down, down below the magazine and academic propaganda, you don’t want to be a man and men don’t want you to be one either. Being anything other than a woman is cheating yourself and all men out of happiness. Got it?

    ______________________
    In other words ladies, stop all ambition, go back to being the mans servant, cook, clean, raise the kids, and when it comes to sex, just lie back and let him do his thing. Then both sides will be happy!……..
    We men often forget men and women rolls were brought about by necessity. It was about survival. Men had to hunt for food, cut the wood to burn, that left women to raise kids and cook. That is was what life was all about, survival. Point is technology, changed all that.

  • Come at me bro

    A 500 a day calorie deficit is better and more reliable than fasting or other shit.

    Eat less and lift weights.

    • A 500 a day calorie deficit is better and more reliable than fasting or other shit.

      Yes. This will result in weight loss of 1 lb. per week. A good goal when working out is to burn 500 cals. That gives the average woman 1500-2000 cals. to eat for the day.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Yohami wrote:

    BTW for the ones trying to get in shape, intermittent fasting is the shit

    Been doing it for about a month, already lost 4kg of fat (down to 21% BF), and no muscle loss so far. Six pack here we go

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

    Leangains is the real deal.

    I would also recommend Martin’s Top Ten Diet Myths to HUS readers.

  • Yohami

    theres some science about what happens in the body when you dont eat ANYTHING from periods of 16-20 hs a day… I´ll know for sure in a couple of so months

    the 500 calorie deficit is a must too

    But I have gotten lean before. Lots of times. I lost most of my muscles while at it. And then got buffy AND fat when training again. So this might work -or not, I´ll figure out

  • David Foster

    I think the idea that a woman has to be unfeminine/humorless/insensitive/not-nice in order to be a career success has been greatly oversold…I know plenty of counterexamples. I suspect that the people doing the selling of this meme tend to have fairly limited personal experience in the world of work, at least outside of academia and publishing.

  • meowww888

    There is absolutely nothing shameful or demeaning about being feminine. At all. I think for a while now being feminine is being perceived as being weak and inferior. You can be strong yet feminine, and equal at the same time 😉

    I practice ninjutsu (male dominated and violent ) but essentially I am still sweet and girly 😛

  • Blues

    @Lavazza

    I am not so sure. I was once at an Ashtanga Vinyasa retreat for five weeks where I would have a light meal at 18, get to bed at 21, get up at 6 and then do breathing exercises and an aerobics type asana practice for 3 hours. Large breakfast at 9.30-10.00. Sure, people said that I looked more ripped, but when I got back I checked my weight and BF, and it had not changed much, so I think that impression came more from my sun tan giving more definition.

    If you looked ripped but had similar weight you probably did lose weight in fat but gained muscle, personally i wouldn’t mind gaining 20 pounds if i looked more athletic and ripped, my problem is killing the beer belly and adding said “solution” seamlessly into my daily routine.

    Back when i lost the 50 pounds? i did it jogging 45 minutes twice a day (but that was during a lapse of 3 months i had nothing else to do because college was on strike), one in the morning and one in the afternoon and regulating carbs and sweets while upping consumption of vegetables, fruits and proteins. I was able more or less able to keep the changes into my eating habits but not the jogging part, at least not like that, all i can do currently fit into my current schedule is jog 3 times a week and sometimes the weather shits on my plans so it’s not even a sure thing. I’ve considered doing some weight lifting on the rainy days but don’t have a clear plan yet and i’d like something focused almost exclusively into getting rid of the beer belly instead of muscle gain first.

    I’m going to look into the leangains articles and see what i can get from it, thanks for the info. Has anyone read The 4 Hour Body? any comments on that?.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Peter Abrolard, your camel-toe is showing Sir.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    @Blues: The best book I have ever read on exercise is Power To The People by Pavel Tsatsouline.

    Pavel endorses Ori Hofmekler’s Warrior Diet, which is one form of intermittent fasting.

  • Blues

    @Johnny Milfquest: thanks for the info, i’ll get it and read ASAP.

  • Rich

    This is great advice for females.

  • GudEnuf

    Lol, Susan has some haters.

    This woman absolutely drives me nuts. I don’t know why, but I always feel compelled to read her blog, and sometimes I even engage her in the comments. *sigh*

    She always pretends to be open to discuss, and acts like she is the smartest most reasonable person EVAR, but when I try to point out some of the flaws in her thinking she just dismisses me, and supports her arguments by saying that they’re “just logical.”

    RAWR. I don’t think she identifies as an MRA, but she certainly holds a bunch of the same opinions. AND SHE IS SO WRONG!

    I am glad to finally have an on-topic place to vent about her. XD

    I mean, her latest post includes a chart that shows that promiscuity leads to rape, which costs money and leads to EVENTUAL ECONOMIC STAGNATION!

    And then in the comments she defends the whole mess as professional and something she would have shown to her bosses, when she used to work. And in the same breath she complains about people who always insist that causation isn’t correlation, and then uses that same principle to debunk someone else’s point! ARGH!

    • @GudEnuf
      Yeah, Hooking Up Smart is getting raked over the coals in all sorts of places. I truly consider it an achievement, under the heading of “all press is good press.” I think that Sarah chick is an assistant at scarleteen, a sex ed website that actively encourages 14 yo girls to have sex “if they feel like it.” One teen wrote in to ask about her very high number, and Heather Corinna reassured her that she had absolutely nothing to be worried about. Terrible.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Lol, Susan has some haters.

    That is more like it.:)
    I’m pretty sure all the sluts are going to come here read and then write pieces rationalizing their lifestyle as better than sliced bread and how feminists need to unite themselves because we still live in slut-shaming times, blah, blah empowerment, blah, blah, get the hell out of my vagina, blah, blah victim blaming…wash, rinse,repeat.

  • meowww888

    Haters gonna keep hatin’ 😛

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Drugstore Game:

    Hit on this girl on line at CVS a few hours ago. Easily a 9 out of 10. She had a tattoo in sanskrit on the back of her left shoulder, and commenting on it and touching it (something I read about in the Roosh book), I ended up chatting her up for about a half hour or so in the parking lot. Didn’t lead to much, but we exchanged cell numbers and have plans to hang out. So I’m enjoying some Dave Matthews and a cigar of all things at the moment feeling like the man. Just thought I’d share….

  • stop all ambition, go back to being the mans servant, cook, clean, raise the kids, and when it comes to sex, just lie back and let him do his thing.

    That doesnt sound feminine. Add hypergamy.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    That doesnt sound feminine. Add hypergamy.

    I’m starting to think that there is some of strange filter going on in American women,because damn do they interpret everything with the same script “remember that men are humans too, just different” reads “go back to the kitchen!”. “show some prudence” reads “marry a chump and hate sex forever” I insist is something in the water.

  • drinking water can make you stupid?

  • Mike C

    In other words ladies, stop all ambition, go back to being the mans servant, cook, clean, raise the kids, and when it comes to sex, just lie back and let him do his thing. Then both sides will be happy!……..
    .
    Ding, ding, ding (ringing bell)….another one…way too easy.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    drinking water can make you stupid?

    Well I’m just trying to find what all this women have in common, air and water are the easiest ones and given that air is harder to tamper with, I’m going for the water supply. All you need to do is plant enough LSD in it and their brains will make them paranoid in no time, which will explain they not getting the message across and reciting feminists platitudes when they have nothing to do with it.

    Is very interesting that I had seen similar articles but omitting that this is something men like in women, they are usually framed as feminine and something that will make you feel good and is flattering to their bodies. Is like the reasoning is if men like it or want more of it in women most be oppressive. 🙁

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yeah, Hooking Up Smart is getting raked over the coals in all sorts of places.

    Heh let me guess you have a google alert with your name and HUS? 🙂

    • Heh let me guess you have a google alert with your name and HUS?

      I do, but it’s not very effective. I mostly find out through word of mouth – readers here tip me off a lot. And bloggers usually link.

  • Dogsquat

    @Blues:

    You and I are definitely on the same page.

    Even learning that there was a type of logic to attraction was a huge help to me. Rather than relying on some mystery/random chance, I could then position myself to get decent opportunities.

    I have a suggestion that may help, or it may be impractical:

    Go get a part time job in a bar/lounge/club. I think the best gigs to get you where you want to go would be doorguy or bouncer, but anything except for bathroom attendant would work.

    You DHV because you’re part of the “in” crowd. You’re supposed to be there (it’s your job, after all) so much of the approach anxiety is gone, and the girls automatically qualify themselves when they first talk to you. It’s like having training wheels for learning a bit of game.

    Working for awhile in a bar is the best thing I could’ve done for myself at the time. Just don’t get sucked into that life – there are a lot of people that are seduced by it.

    Food for thought, anyway.

    BTW – I don’t you/anyone to think I’m some PUA pimp who has women falling all over him all the time. I do all right, but I’m looking for a serious relationship, and I’m not a one-night-stand kind of guy.

  • very good points you make in the article. i’m absolutely powerless against a “feminine woman”. brings me to my knee’s.

    women reading this…….what susan’s posted on this subject works on us fellahs. seriously.

  • Dogsquat

    @GudEnuf:

    Maybe 4-6 months. It took a year or so before I was healed up enough to do activities I really like.

    It’s a lot easier to maintain a good appearance/functional athleticism than it is to achieve it. These days I might go to the gym a couple times a week, and do a couple Krav Maga workouts. As long as I don’t slip up too much with crappy food, I look pretty decent.

  • Dogsquat

    Matt T said:

    “Well, game comes in a lot of forms. For some people, it’s the sum of internal and external techniques they read in a book. For others, it’s offering cocaine to a girl to get her back to the house. If it works, it works.”

    ___________________________

    You speak the truth, dude.

    Hey…uh….do you want a bump? I’ve got another eightball at my place – come on over. We’ll just shoot the shit awhile….

  • I can only say how much I agree with your post here Susan.

    Femininity is a resource in scarce supply, especially in New Zealand.

  • imnobody

    I think that my generation’s feelings on the subject can be summed up as “We’re the women who have it all. Well, I don’t want it all.”

    Your generation should have thought this through, Susan, with all my respect. The whole society changed to follow the whims of women that didn’t know what they wanted and they were not in touch with reality, but they lived a fantasy of “female empowerment”. Every sane opinion was shamed and disregared as male chauvinistic.

    Now women have what they fought for. I hope you enjoy it because there is no turning back. You were lucky, Susan, but as I will explain in my next post, most women will have no other option to work as a mother and as a father, while men will have to work less. After the first generation, feminism has been a great deal for men. Alphas are getting sex without commitment. Betas are not getting sex but they don’t have to work for a woman who despise them.

    • @imnobody

      Your generation should have thought this through, Susan, with all my respect. The whole society changed to follow the whims of women that didn’t know what they wanted and they were not in touch with reality, but they lived a fantasy of “female empowerment”.

      My generation was raised by the women who ushered in the Women’s Movement. It was our mothers who got this all wrong, and indoctrinated us along the way. It takes a while for research to show that women are a lot less happy in aggregate than they were 40 years ago. Wolfert and Stevenson at Penn just released that finding a couple of years ago, and it caused quite a stir.

      Of course there were unintended consequences – there always are when you change society.

  • imnobody

    It’s have been ages since I have not posted here. I have had health problems and a surgery. Five years from now I am going to get into the operating room so I will not be able to read the repplies.

    I would never recommend that women as a whole back peddle on careers. Nor am I interested in opening up jobs for males. Today women can compete as well as men.

    This is fine and dandy and I am for it. But everything comes with a price because there is no perfect solution with all advantages and no disavantage.

    The price is:

    a) Women will have to work, whether they want it or not. The chances of being SAHM will decrease more and more, until becoming tiny.

    b) Women would have to get used to getting married to men that belong to a lower status or they would have to stay single.

    The last option will be the majority because you can’t fight against biology. When you do away with all the laws and taboos that enforced the so-called “patriarchy”, people are free to follow their natural instincts. So society devolves to the natural society: the matriarchy of the African savannah. The family is only matriarchal: the father is absent. See the last American Censuses and you will see that every time there are less patriarchal families and there are more “female-headed households”.

    More women in the workplace -> Women raise up their status -> Less men of higher status that them. You can’t fight basic logic. At the end of the day, fighting the fact that 2+2 =4 is an exercise in futility.

    You can’t have the best of the “patriarchy” and the best of the “matriarchy”. You had it, Susan, because men and women were different then: the patriarchy still lingered in them even when it was already dead (they didn’t completely notice).

    The first generation of women after the feminist revolution had it all: casual sex in their twenties, marrying a quality man in their thirties with the picket fence. Career women when they are young and becoming stay-at-home moms (if they wanted so when they discover that job is a grinder and not the dream world they thought these evil men were trying to forbid them).

    Very few young women will be able to pull this off. Women’s entrance to the workplace -> More working people -> Purchasing power of salaries drops -> It takes two people working to economically support a family -> Women cannot be SAHM.

    Women offering their goods for free to quality men (aka “hook-up”) -> Less quality men willing to commit, less beta men wanting to commit to the women who despised ten years ago in favor of alphas, less women wanting to commit to betas after they tasted the sweet taste of alphas.

    Susan, with all my respect and affection, it’s not that you hooked up smart, it’s that you were lucky to be born in the right time.

    • @imnobody
      It has been ages and it’s really good to see you. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been struggling with health issues. I hope you recover quickly and come back to us with your thoughtful wisdom.

      Susan, with all my respect and affection, it’s not that you hooked up smart, it’s that you were lucky to be born in the right time.

      Just to be clear, I am in no way claiming that women should make the same choices I did, or even that I hooked up smart. In fact, I wasn’t strategic at all, I just bumbled along and got lucky, as you say. This is a whole different SMP, and it was my realization of that when my daughter came of age that convinced me young women needed a new kind of advice, and that their mothers were mostly not giving it to them.

  • imnobody

    “Five years from now I am going to get into the operating room so I will not be able to read the repplies.”

    Sorry, I meant “five hours from now”. Not that my condition is of any interest but this sentence is weird.

  • Anonymous

    Dogsquat,

    Even learning that there was a type of logic to attraction was a huge help to me. Rather than relying on some mystery/random chance, I could then position myself to get decent opportunities.

    For me, learning game and beginning to practice it has actually had the opposite affect. I mean, sure I’m learning how to attract women and am actually have success, but I have a great deal less respect and trust of females now.

    Whereas I used to be looking for something long term-term, understanding game has shown me how ridiculous it is to try to have the best of both worlds with a woman. You have to build alpha and beta characteristics, and walk a fine line between the two. Doesn’t seem worth it. The dual mating strategy of women seems more like hipocrisy to me, so I’m just focusing on pleasing myself from now on.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That was me talking about game and the hipocrisy of the dual mating strategy, btw. Sorry, forgot to type my name in….

    For me, learning game and beginning to practice it has actually had the opposite affect. I mean, sure I’m learning how to attract women and am actually have success, but I have a great deal less respect and trust of females now.

    Whereas I used to be looking for something long term-term, understanding game has shown me how ridiculous it is to try to have the best of both worlds with a woman. You have to build alpha and beta characteristics, and walk a fine line between the two. Doesn’t seem worth it. The dual mating strategy of women seems more like hipocrisy to me, so I’m just focusing on pleasing myself from now on.

  • Maura

    @Jules, you poor, ignorant dear.
    There is actually no such thing as “Native American women”. You, see the term Native American is an exonym invented by the PC establishment to salve their guilty conscience by lumping a bunch of not-necessarily connected people/cultures together.

    If you meant to refer to one of the many Pre-Columbian cultures that existied in the Americas then I have some news for you. In all the cultures I’ve studied gender roles were well defines, non-egalitarian and strictly enforced, often with physical punishment. I am waiting at the edge of my seat for this mythical feminist Shangri-La of genderless or pure matriarchy that exisited somewhere on earth. The best anyone has come up with are some dirt-poor matrilinear(but still patriarchal) societies with very small populations in China and the Amazon.

  • Maura

    Susan you asked about Obesity statistics in men vs women and the simple answer is that yes, many more American women are obese than men but it correlates strongly with race, age & income. In some groups, more men are obese than women (white, young, middle or upper class) in most others the opposite is true.

  • Jennifer

    Susan, what a WONDERFUL article!! Well-done.

  • Blues

    Dogsquat: as for your suggestion, sad to say it is impractical, i already have my hands pretty much full at the moment and it’s really complicated to add a second job to the mix but thanks anyways, i’ll keep the idea in mind if the chance presents itself.

    BTW – I don’t you/anyone to think I’m some PUA pimp who has women falling all over him all the time. I do all right, but I’m looking for a serious relationship, and I’m not a one-night-stand kind of guy.

    That makes 2 of us.

  • Blues

    @Anon:44pm

    Until yesterday i would have thought exactly the same, then i read this

    best quote from there

    The foundation for her commitment to your marriage shouldn’t be your game. If she is only one, or a few, or even 50 failed shit tests away from walking away from her sacred vow and/or whoring around, then she isn’t a wife, she is a whore. Don’t marry a whore. Game should be about making you and your wife happier with your marriage, not about putting the sole onus for the success of the marriage on you.

    Now i agree that finding one girl quality girl could be up there as the 13th job of Hercules but hey, all you need is 1 from millions.

    My advice is to bookmark the site, and read as much as you can from there.

  • Jamie

    To be or not to be feminine comes down to a choice women have to make regarding which is more important, to be a “silly woman” or to be taken seriously. The way I was raised, I learned that having a job is more important than having a man, that you can only count on yourself.

    The only things I’ve gotten for being feminine is: shouted at from men in trucks and ripped-off at the mechanic. There aren’t many rewards for feminine behavior.

    I have a serious question for the modern man: How much do you really want a traditionally feminine woman? If you found one, would you marry her or jerk her around? Would you expect her to keep her job and contribute or stay at home and make you comfortable? Is that way of life dead? Do men even want to revive it?

    The reason I ask is because I doubt anything would really change, except that it would be easier to identify pushovers and ball-busters.

    • @Jamie

      To be or not to be feminine comes down to a choice women have to make regarding which is more important, to be a “silly woman” or to be taken seriously. The way I was raised, I learned that having a job is more important than having a man, that you can only count on yourself.

      This dichotomy is precisely what feminism taught us, but it’s extremely limiting. Being silly or serious is not the choice you face. You can be feminine and taken very seriously. You can be masculine and act like a fool.

      You can have a job and have a man. Do you really want to go through life counting only on yourself? Marriage is a partnership, and I recommend it as a way to go through life.

      From your question to the guys, I get the impression you think femininity = washing diapers, cooking dinner and acting stupid. This makes me think you haven’t known any feminine women. Look again at the list of traits in the post. A strong, accomplished woman can be all of those things. To deny yourself that part of your nature is a waste.

  • Jack

    @Jamie I think that you’re posing a false dichotomy. You’ve equated femininity w/ incompetence and dependency. But neither are necessary for a woman to be feminine. And I don’t think that these are traits that men admire when they say that they prefer feminine women.

    Think Kate Middleton, less Lucy Ricardo.

  • Aldonza

    Having played around with how feminine I am, I have a few comments. Like most things in life, it’s a balance. Being feminine doesn’t have to mean subservience, lack of professional success or dressing like Marilyn Monroe. A woman needs to interpret what it means to her. For some, it is about nurturing and providing. For others, it’s about sexuality. I have a friend who is a dyed-in-the-wool lesbian. She is also one of the most nurturing/soft people I know. Another friend is an in-your-face, professional, but dayum, she is sexy as hell and never goes without male companionship. If you choose the mousy librarian, retiring, shy, homebody, type of femininity, you’re going to fail in the SMP.

    That said, if you believe that your career makes you more appealing to men, you’re wrong. But don’t give it up because of that, a career is important to support you and give you meaningful work. If your version of playful is a bit more biting and direct, that can work. But ask yourself if the cynicism and back-handed comments are actually hiding some real feelings. If pants are your thing, go for it. But you’re not selling anybody out if they’re fitted, and worn with a feminine touch like a scarf, nice top or sexy shoes.

    To me, being feminine is beyond behavior or dress. It’s being more in touch with my own emotions. For a long time I believed that men didn’t like women who cried or got upset. Turns out some emotional vulnerability is not only attractive, but required in a genuine, intimate relationship.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    The only things I’ve gotten for being feminine is: shouted at from men in trucks and ripped-off at the mechanic. There aren’t many rewards for feminine behavior.

    I think you are placing the blame in the wrong part. The mechanic didn’t take advantage of your femininity but your lack of knowledge about the cars. If you knew your way around cars you could had been wearing a 50’s vintage dress and you could had been able to tell when they were being dishonest. In situations like this get a friend (male or female) that knows about cars to come with you or to tell you a good place to take your car that has honest mechanics. Even men are taken advantage off is the mechanic is dishonest and sees that he won’t be able to tell, YMMV.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I wanted to add that I know this because my father is a mechanic. I can’t count the times he got new clients or old clients that moved far away and tried to get another mechanic come back because they were tricked on their money or the mechanic fixed the problem the had and “broke” something else to get them to come back and this was a problem for men and women. My father was one of the few honest ones, but in the country there is a whole popular wisdom that says “don’t trust a lawyer,or a mechanic” I used to take a bit of offense in that one “Hey my daddy is a mechanic” my friends used to say don’t trust mechanics excepts Steph’s dad 😀

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BLues,

    That’s all well and good. If you find someone you jibe with completely, then I wish you the best of luck. If I happen to meet a girl who isn’t a hypocritical slut for bad asses and jerks, and doesn’t want a decent guy in a relationship and a jerk for a fantasy fling…. then maybe I’ll consider marriage.

  • jamie

    @Jack & Stephanie

    I’m not talking about ACTUAL incompetence or dependence, but the PERCEPTION of these qualities.

    Case in point: Stephanie automatically assumed I know nothing about cars and that it’s my fault for getting screwed. PLEASE. I check my own fluids, change my own tires, if I had the equpment, I could do my own oil changes, but I’d rather spend the money and get the free car wash. But even then, it’s still common practice do draw up a long list of “necessary” repairs for a woman. Funny, because that never happens when my brother or gay bff comes with me to pick up the car. (the latter being the most infuriating because I’M the one who taught gay bff how to handle an overheated radiator…but I digress)

    I’m just saying, it’s a rough world and I’m taking care of myself, which requires a certain degree of toughness and savvy. People will take advantage of someone they perceive to be weak. Traditional femininity required someone strong to protect women (or an institution) where modern society dictates that I protect myself. Believe me, I’d love to pass the reins and have one less thing to worry about, but I’m not going to tell men to “step up”, that’s kind of the whole point, men are off the hook, I got this. Is the ability to protect myself abhorrent because I’m a woman?

  • LS

    Ladies: Stop with the spitting and belching and cover your yawns.

    Do I even have to say this?

  • jamie

    Ladies: Stop with the spitting and belching and cover your yawns.

    Do I even have to say this?

    Thank god I can still fart.

  • Jamie

    @Susan

    It would be more true to say that I’ve never known any women who could depend on their men. So we had to be both feminine and masculine in order to survive.

    • @Jamie

      It would be more true to say that I’ve never known any women who could depend on their men

      Is this true? Not your mother? Or relatives? Women in the community? Most of the married women I know depend on their men, and vice versa.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Case in point: Stephanie automatically assumed I know nothing about cars and that it’s my fault for getting screwed.

    ??? I said that it doesn’t matter the gender. All the stories of people getting screwed up were both men and women. Again where did I blamed you? A dishonest mechanic is dishonest regardless.

    Is the ability to protect myself abhorrent because I’m a woman?

    Again you are confusing the term, you can protect yourself and being feminine.
    Also by your own addition you are not acting feminine and you still get the list of unnecessary repairs for being a woman. So it doesn’t make any difference you think they would treat you different if you acted like a though woman?
    There is a scene in legally blonde when a store owner wanted to trick Ellie because she though she was stupid, Ellie showed her that she knew her fashion and she was all embarrassed, that is how you treat those people. Shame them into not trying to trick other people. And really if anyone ever did that to me I would tell them that this is the last time I take my car there and find an honest mechanic. I don’t reward fraudulent people with my money or time,YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    Also by your own addition you are not acting feminine and you still get the list of unnecessary repairs for being a woman. So it doesn’t make any difference you think they would treat you different if you acted like a though woman?”

    She also claims that she can’t depend on a man, but yet she has her brother and gay best friend picking up her car from the mechanic for her…..

  • jamie

    @Jesus

    Not FOR me, with me. You know, when you need someone to pick you up from/drive you to the garage. But then the mechanic mainly addresses the man and virtually ignores me even though it’s MY car and I’m the one paying for repairs. Like he automatically assumes the my feeble female mind can’t possibly comprehend what he’s saying. I didn’t think this needed clarification, as this sort of thing happens all the time. Maybe it’s just me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So you don’t depend on them to come with you. Not like they’re giving you a ride up there and you’re asking them to come in so you don’t get screwed over… Not like that at all I’m sure, because you can’t depend on men.

  • Jonny

    Men love feminine women, but they do rely on women to manage the household and that does mean he expects the women to take the car to the auto mechanic if he had to go out of town on business. She has to navigate the household maintenance including calling the plumber or roofer especially if the man isn’t home. She is best to be at home when the washer is broken and needs repair. I try to be at home during most of these household maintenance chores needs to be done, but for things like a broken washer, which cannot be delayed, she needs to get the job done. Thanksfully, she doesn’t protest. I do know women who do protest. They think men should do their 50% and call the mechanic or they are irrational and think the repairman will harrass them. They are also not very feminine.

  • jamie

    @ Jesus

    I think everyone in this forum agrees that NAMALT (or NAWALT) arguments are pretty worn out. I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Only that you claim that it’s true that you can’t depend on men, while that doesn’t seem to be the case.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I didn’t think this needed clarification, as this sort of thing happens all the time.

    Well the thing is that this is an easily solved problem. Your friend can tell him to talk to you, since you are the owner. You can tell him to talk to you because you are the owner.
    Taking this treatment silently only confirms his idea that you don’t understand “car talk”, proof him wrong if you do. If he does that a second time. You can tell him that unless he wants to lose a client he better addresses you all the time you bring your car. Third time is the moment to find a new mechanic. See? No need to suffer because some men have certain expectations, IME men are very open to NAWALT as long as you put your money where your mouth is. If you keep just accepting “all men will be misogynist because I’m a woman” then all men will be misogynist not because you are a woman but because you just take it and add it to your list of reasons “why being a woman sucks”. This mechanics are not your bosses you are the one paying for the service, they are they ones that have everything to lose if they don’t treat you in the way you want to be treated, but they are not psychic, clear speech is God’s gift, YMMV.

  • Jamie

    @jesus

    That is 2 people, one I’ve known for over 12 years and another I’ve known his whole life. There is a massive difference between my brother and some guy who wants to get under my skirt now, but may change his mind later.

    I will be sure to clarify all statements suggesting that I cannot depend on men with a disclaimer, “-with the exception of a few family members and old friends.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh, okay. I didn’t realize that you expected to be able to depend upon some random guy who wanted up your skirt as much as you could your brother and best friend.

  • I didn’t realize that you expected to be able to depend upon some random guy who wanted up your skirt as much as you could your brother and best friend.

    LOL ++

  • Stephenie Rowling

    That is 2 people, one I’ve known for over 12 years and another I’ve known his whole life. There is a massive difference between my brother and some guy who wants to get under my skirt now, but may change his mind later.

    Why this simplistic view of men? Do you think any man that finds you sexually attractive is incapable of coming to love you as much as your relatives and friends?
    I guess that is why you don’t appreciate femininity if you think a guy that might be your lover is a temporary conditional person that will throw you under a bus as soon as he is done with you, but many men stay together and do their best for the women they love. You just need to differentiate between guys that want to have sex with you ONLY and guys that want to have sex with you ALSO (apart from having a relationship with you) and of course don’t have sex with the sex ONLY guys ever. Sex makes this distinction harder specially for women.

  • jamie

    @jesus

    I give up. you’re just trying to annoy me.

  • jamie

    Why this simplistic view of men? Do you think any man that finds you sexually attractive is incapable of coming to love you as much as your relatives and friends?

    Because I’ve seen it happen. For every man here who says that all women are money-grubbing entitled whores, I’ve seen a woman get screwed over by a man who said he loved her. My father left my mother after 15 years together; She had quit her job to raise the babies he wanted, then decided he would rather be married to someone else. Anybody can say, “I love you and I’ll always be there for you.” Lying is easy. Self-delusion is easy.

    This is what femininity does for you. It makes you soft and gullible and leaves you defenseless when you get thrown under that bus.

  • jamie, I understand your pain, but your argument is full of bullshit

  • Stephenie Rowling

    This is what femininity does for you. It makes you soft and gullible and leaves you defenseless when you get thrown under that bus.

    I’m sorry to hear about your mom. My parents, aunts and cousins from my mother’s side are still married. But from my father’s side there had been a lot of backstabbing. So I can only tell you that not everyone (male or female) is the same way, YMMV.

  • The Unfortunate Rake

    The CDC says that more men are overweight or obese.

    Male: 71.2%
    Female: 57%

    The male whale phenomenon appears to be consistent across all states.

    http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparebar.jsp?ind=90&cat=2

  • Rhen

    One of the most unfeminine traits is continuous anger…not talking about getting mad occasionally, everyone does that, but about anger almost as a way of life. A lot of women these days seem to have short fuses, with husbands but also people in general, and when the fuse goes off the reaction is all out of proportion to the situation.

    Maybe women aren’t being taught to restrain their negative emotions even to the extent that men are, not that men are always so great at it. I think this is a real problem.

  • jamie

    @ Susan

    Is this true? Not your mother? Or relatives? Women in the community? Most of the married women I know depend on their men, and vice versa.

    I was raised mostly by bitter single women and had the “all men are jerks” rhetoric drilled into my head from a very early age. (for the record, I don’t think that’s entirely true) I know a few married people, but they were the exception, and I have no idea how they pulled it off.

    I really don’t think there is anything wrong with your list of feminine qualities except for the suggestion that emotional vulnerability is somehow virtuous in a woman. It’s not. A woman who is overly sensitive or cries whenever she feels like it will get eaten alive in the real world.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    This is what femininity does for you. It makes you soft and gullible and leaves you defenseless when you get thrown under the bus.

    So, what you’re telling me is that women are inferior and men are superior, generally speaking. I don’t consider myself some progressive feminist, but even I don’t go that far.

    You know, I’ve heard the same thing said about being nice and courteous. Don’t be nice; you’ll just be stabbed in the back, they say. Act selfish and callous, nothing matters anyway. If everyone acted like that, the very things you complain of would overpower everything — a war of all against all.

    So it is with femininity. Women may not be goddesses or princesses, but they certainly don’t need to act like men to be strong. Trying to crush the natural beauty and femininity of women only leads to more sad faces and broken hearts.

  • Matt T

    You speak the truth, dude.

    Hey…uh….do you want a bump? I’ve got another eightball at my place – come on over. We’ll just shoot the shit awhile

    Yeah, I guess the biggest problem with Cocaine Game is that it’s totally contingent on your ability to secure coke safely (avoiding the police) and efficiently (avoiding exorbitant prices). Honestly, hitting on girls is hard enough without bringing the law and your finances into the picture.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yeah, I guess the biggest problem with Cocaine Game is that it’s totally contingent on your ability to secure coke safely (avoiding the police) and efficiently (avoiding exorbitant prices). Honestly, hitting on girls is hard enough without bringing the law and your finances into the picture.

    Heh I think that Dogsquat as more or less jokingly trying to set you up, as a doctor I can’t imagine the amount of shit he had seen involving cocaine. Most doctors I know hate illegal drugs because they see many young lives wasted over it. Not sure if I got it right or not…tell me Dogsquat. Am I right? Or am I projecting?

  • VI

    I’d be careful with #2. As you’ve worded it, it’s fine, but many girls will take teasing to mean ball busting, and men HATE it when a girl is a ball buster. Basically, don’t tease a man the same way other men would tease him.

    For girls who say they are not naturally feminine, fine, go away. Most women are naturally feminine, and it has taken a culture that tries to kill femininity in women to make them into the androgynous creatures they are. Most men are naturally masculine and are attracted to feminine women. If a girl is not naturally feminine, then she probably won’t be attracted to the same types of men that most women want, so there’s no point in coming here and screwing things up for the girls who actually want to be girls.

    For getting in shape, I recommend HIIT. I just started intermittent fasting as well, but I’m currently in a muscle gaining phase, so will have to wait to see how well it works for fat lass.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There’s a difference between emotional vulnerability and being a cry baby. See the rule about subtlety.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    I don’t think that women are money-grubbing whores, but I do think they are by and large hypocrites, with their dual mating strategy.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Jesus Mahoney:

    This “dual mating strategy” thing is really stuck in your craw! I think you’re misunderstanding it a bit.

    Biologically, evolutionarily speaking, women want the best possible genes for their offspring, yes? We aren’t talking morals or ethics here, just survival of the fittest as Nature intended it. There are several methods by which male primates passed on their genes — by becoming the alpha male and protector of a group, by hanging around the females in a group long enough to be familiar and allowed to join in the sexual festivities, or by raping the females who wandered off (again, ignoring morals and ethics here).

    With these options, it made sense for females (the selective sex) to employ a strategy that would secure the strongest (alpha) traits for their offspring to ensure their protection and survival, while at the same time assuring a male would be around long enough to help raise their babies (beta) safely into adulthood.

    One method would be to find a beta male and cuckold him with an alpha, and maybe allow the beta to sire a baby or two. Or, as civilized beings, a far more beneficial method would be to find a male who possesses both alpha and beta traits — assuring the female that he would pass on strong genes for their offspring, as well as stick around to raise the young safely into adulthood.

    The “dual mating strategy” that you’re so sore about is nothing more than woman seeking the best possible option for themselves — which is fair enough. Women who aren’t seeking relationships employ a short-term mating strategy because they really aren’t looking for anyone to stick around. Women who are seeking relationships employ a long-term mating strategy. Women who want a relationship while employing a short-term mating strategy are literally and figuratively fucked.

    By the way, one can’t be hypocritical if these decisions are unconscious. A lot of the dissatisfaction today can be attributed to women being misguided and employing the wrong strategies to get what they want (a relationship, for the majority of women). A lot of women my age simply do not know that having short-term relations with a man is no guarantee for longer-term relations (and is most likely in fact a deterrent).

    Yes, a “dual” mating strategy exists, but most women only employ one or the other. And they employ them depending on the conditions of their environment, and the options available. And you could say that men have a “dual” mating strategy as well! They could either be alpha, or they could be beta. In an environment saturated with feminized men, alpha will reign supreme. In a society filled with players, women will seek out the beta provider (Stephenie Rowling is a testament to this). Depending on which environment you’re in, either ramping up your alpha or your beta could work.

    One more thing: the men who get it don’t seem to view walking the alpha/beta line as a precarious tightrope (see: Athol Kay). It’s in their best interest to manage both sides of their masculinity. Just like women today need to rediscover their femininity, men should also be comfortable in their masculinity — comfortable with BOTH their inner alpha, and their inner beta.

    • Excellent comment from SayWhaat at 10:40 pm

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    You can be a hypocrite if your decisions are unconscious. In fact, I’d say that most hypocrites are unconscious of their double standards.

    I can accept a woman who wants a man with both alpha and beta traits. But I can’t respect a woman who seeks out a guy who’s primarily beta for a relationship, but will hook up with a guy who’s primarily alpha for “fun.”

    I think until these past couple of weeks that I was primarily beta. But then I thought, why would I want to be a beta in a relationship with a woman who’s gina tingles in the presence of an alpha? And, of course, I don’t want that. Who the hell would?

    You can justify it evolutionarily if you’d like. I mean that’s the way it is. Maybe that’s the way it has to be. Who knows? Whatever the case, doesn’t mean I have to like it.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    In a society filled with players, women will seek out the beta provider (Stephenie Rowling is a testament to this).

    I would say that Hope (and you ;)) also classifies in this tendency for finding Beta traits. I also think you missed the part that some women will gamble with only Betas because even if they didn’t had the best of genes their constant presence could ensure more offspring to survive.

  • the dual mating strategy of men: seeking a hot babe who is also a good companionship and nurturing

    you might find hot babes that are good only for “fun” but not for relationships, and you can be in relationships with plain girls and still have penis tingles in the presence of hot girls

    so what? all is there for a reason

    what Mahoney resents is he was taught to be beta and beta only and that alphas were bad bad bad. that and women constantly complaining about how the alphas treat them bad and dont do nice stuff, while the beta nice guys hang around screaming “Hey im not like that I will make you my princess” only to get a cold shoulder and lets just be friends

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami probably knows this from his own beta days.

    I resented women, but I don’t anymore. I actually feel better than I have in a long time, but I don’t have a desire for a relationship anymore. I just feel like the beta in me has shriveled up and died, if that makes sense.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Jesus Mahoney:

    You don’t have to like it at all, that’s entirely your prerogative. But I will say that most women are looking for men who are the whole package, not a guy they can have on the side while fooling around with another. You have women all over this thread who aren’t like that, who wouldn’t even consider doing that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    Not claiming that most women would diddle an alpha on the side while having a relationship with a beta. IDK, i think like I said before, the beta in me just died when I realized how things really were.

  • SayWhaat

    why would I want to be a beta in a relationship with a woman who’s gina tingles in the presence of an alpha? And, of course, I don’t want that. Who the hell would?

    Why would any girl want to be in a relationship with a guy whose dick gets hard at just the mere sight of another, slightly hotter girl? No girl wants that, either. And yet it happens.

    Another rule that you should keep in mind: attraction is not a choice. If a girl loses attraction for you, you can probably get it back, because you had something she liked in the first place.

    There are gives and takes to both sexes. We’re all figuring out where we stand in this.

  • SayWhaat

    IDK, i think like I said before, the beta in me just died when I realized how things really were.

    You can’t let it get you down so much. I had to learn some pretty hard truths about men, myself. Use what you know about the opposite sex to your advantage to find what you want.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m actually not feeling down at all. I just… idk, I feel like I’m a different person now. And I am using what I’ve learned to my advantage, btw. I just don’t want a relationship anymore.

  • SayWhaat

    That’s fine if you don’t want a relationship, but please let the girls you’re seeing know, in case they aren’t on the same page.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sure, I’m not going to lie.

  • Dogsquat

    Jamie jamie bo-bamie said:

    “I really don’t think there is anything wrong with your list of feminine qualities except for the suggestion that emotional vulnerability is somehow virtuous in a woman. It’s not. A woman who is overly sensitive or cries whenever she feels like it will get eaten alive in the real world.”

    _____________________

    As I was reading your replies in this thread, I was struck by the similarity in your reaction to mine right before I red-pilled myself:

    All the shit people say doesn’t make sense, it’s not how we were raised, and what the fuck do people want from me/you anyway, here’s 500 reasons it’s not gonna work, and why should I/you even bother?

    Not a judgement, or even a complete thought – just sayin’.

    In other news:

    You’re making some decent points, especially as viewed through the lens of your experience.

    I think what’s putting people off, my dear wrench turning wench*, is that you’re being very binary about it. No men are dependable, being feminine = being taken advantage of, etc.

    I (and most dudes here, if I may be so bold) aren’t advocating for a woman who wails inconsolably, heedless of the snot ropes dangling from her chin while rending and tearing at her clothes because her coupon is expired. Context matters.

    There’s a hot as hell nurse where I work. I love working triage with her, because she takes no shit from anyone. I’ve seen her put a waiting room full of gangbangers in their place. She walked out there, all 110lbs of her bad self, and made 5 or 6 street thugs sit down, shut up, quit cursing, and turn their music off. She also coos and smiles at every goddamn baby within 500 meters. She’s got end-stage baby rabies. The little kids all want to hug her when they get discharged. She can turn it on and off, and if she wasn’t already taken I’d make her the future ex-Mrs. Dogsquat.

    Also, think about the way you were raised with regard to men. Do you think you’re kind of programmed to look for stuff that validates your “no men are dependable” hypothesis? Do you believe you have realistic, non-hypocritical standards for dudes?

    What I mean is – sometimes I might be like, 10 minutes late or something. Also, I can’t always answer my phone due to my job. If you’re my friend, though, I will bail you out of jail, or help you move, or hit you up with an IV and some Zofran when you’re puking your guts out. Is a guy like me “undependable” based on the sometimes being late thing? (That’s an honest question – not a thinly veiled statement, by the way.)

    *wench in this instance connotes no anti-womyn sentiment whatsoever. The Patriarchy has seen fit to repress the English language in such a brutal way that no slang word for womyn rhymes with oil-change. We’re meeting in the quad on Wednesday at 3:30 to protest this injustice. Bring a sign.

  • Dogsquat

    @Stephanie and Matt –

    I’m not a doc – just a broke-dick paramedic.

    Also, cocaine is a nasty, nasty drug. I think it’s one of the bad ones because of how sneaky it is – people use it and have fun, then use it a little more. They think they’re maintaining, but after 6 months or a year they’re using it 3-4 times per week and stealing to maintain their habit/lifestyle.

    I’ve seen it screw people up in the bar industry and seen the aftermath in medicine. That drug scares the crap out me. Plus, it sucks trying to figure out what the hell’s going on on a cokehead’s EKG. 180 beats per minute, ST elevations, a funky Q wave – is that a slurred S wave in lead 6? ….ah fuck it – hit him with some benzos and hope he makes it….

    I’ll stick to Scotch.

  • SayWhaat

    Dogsquat wins.

  • Dogsquat

    Hey, Jesus –

    I think you’re going through the Anger/Grief stages of swallowing your shiny red pill.

    Don’t worry, dude. It just takes a little while to shift your paradigm. After some time, you’ll stop liking women for what you thought they were, and really appreciate them for how they are.

    It’s like thinking you had a dog for a pet, only to discover that Spot is actually a cat. You still love your pet, but it’s a little different.

    Okay, sorry. Worst analogy ever.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Okay, sorry. Worst analogy ever.

    Yeah cats are always better pets 🙂 (proud cat lover here :D)

  • Dogsquat

    I thought I wanted a cat, then I realized all I wanted was a box of shit in my house.

    I got a litterbox instead. Saved me a lot of scratched up furniture.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Saved me a lot of scratched up furniture.

    And purring and play time and sleeping in your lap and miauing to you once you get home and licking your fingers, and caressing your feet and having someone to keep you company doing the dishes…your loss 😛

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Don’t worry, dude.  It just takes a little while to shift your paradigm.  After some time, you’ll stop liking women for what you thought they were, and really appreciate them for how they are.

    The same thing happened with me. I was distraught at first, but now I appreciate women as they are, now that I understand what gets them going. Also, I felt a bit of joy learning that feminism was not telling the truth.

  • VI

    Jesus,

    As others have pointed out, you’re going through the stages of grief with respect to the red pill. This is perfectly normal. Back when Ricky Raw was taking a poll, I suggested that he should write a series of posts on this issue and the readers agreed (http://therawness.com/voting-results-for-reader-suggested-topics/). Keep up with The Rawness blog. It’s definitely my favorite blog.

    To sum it up, you recently discovered how women think. Previously, you knew it was different than men, but you didn’t know how, so you kind of assumed it was pretty much the same and didn’t think much of it. Now you know that by the standards you use to judge men, the average woman is a monster. Using those same standards, this will never change.
    Take a second to think about it from the female perspective. Imagine that your code of ethics was shaped by the female experience. Now think of how the average man thinks. We’re monsters too…

  • Blues

    By the way, one can’t be hypocritical if these decisions are unconscious. A lot of the dissatisfaction today can be attributed to women being misguided and employing the wrong strategies to get what they want (a relationship, for the majority of women). A lot of women my age simply do not know that having short-term relations with a man is no guarantee for longer-term relations (and is most likely in fact a deterrent).

    You realize that this bullshit it the very core of women’s problem but instead of seeking options they just hamster it up and jump to the next cock.

    the dual mating strategy of men: seeking a hot babe who is also a good companionship and nurturing

    Bingo, men seek for both, women? be a conniving bitch with a beta provider and a gene seeking whore with alphas.

    • @Blues

      Bingo, men seek for both, women? be a conniving bitch with a beta provider and a gene seeking whore with alphas.

      MWANLT. If your mileage varies, find new women, and try a different kind of venue this time.

  • jerome

    To sum it up, you recently discovered how women think. Previously, you knew it was different than men, but you didn’t know how, so you kind of assumed it was pretty much the same and didn’t think much of it.

    + what you’ve been told is false, actually the truth is almost the opposite. In fact, what you were told is a trap. Women aren’t attracted to what they claim they want, but they won’t acknowledge this to themselves, because it is kind of ugly, so they resent you for making them realize what they want, and disproving what they claim they want.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogsquat,

    I’ve stopped resenting women for not being who I thought they were, but I haven’t yet started to appreciate what they really are–aside from being attractive, of course. Who knows, maybe it’s like you said and it will come with time, though I’m not holding my breath.

  • Jonny

    I don’t quite buy the “dual mating strategy” hypothesis. An alpha is theoretically capable of having both good genes and good earning power. He is just not capable of being a reliable long term partner. Women who seek an alpha in an ideal situation will have a baby with an alpha and make him pay exorbitant child support. There is no dual mating strategy in this situation. As long as she can exact payment, she won’t necessarily have a beta relationship that will jeopardise the child support or alimony. Often, she will move on to another high earning alpha.

    As for “Biologically, evolutionarily speaking, women want the best possible genes for their offspring, yes?” I don’t quite buy this in the land of birth control and abortion. Women are less discriminate in who they are picking for mates, thus the bastard’s father is their highest status bed mates.

    As for Jamie, I’m tired of women who describe men in the worst terms. Funny how feminism gotten us to hooking up and rapists all in the same breath.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Vi,

    Thanks for the link to the rawness. Looks like interesting stuff.

  • Anonymous

    @ jesus
    I took this directly from your post and took the liberty of changing some of the words.

    I can accept a man who wants a woman with both slutty and wholesome traits. But I can’t respect a man who seeks out a girl who’s primarily wholesome for a relationship, but will hook up with a girl who’s primarily slutty for “fun.”

    What you described is known as “women who fuck like men.” It’s rooted in curiosity, sanctioned by the pill and praised by feminists. Clearly, that kind of woman is not your cup of tea, nothing wrong with that. Just remember that we’re people. Sluts, nice girls, saints and sinners; all people, flawed, just like you.

  • What you described is known as “women who fuck like men.”

    Thats the thing. They dont fuck like men, they fuck like women.

  • Anonymous

    Thats the thing. They dont fuck like men, they fuck like women.

    I disagree. They fuck like women who fuck like men.

    Don’t you think it’s a little unfair that men can screw around without the horrible consequences that would befall women? (HPV and shame) Why do men get to have all the fun?

    • Don’t you think it’s a little unfair that men can screw around without the horrible consequences that would befall women? (HPV and shame) Why do men get to have all the fun?

      If you think it’s fun to have sex like a man, do so. Many women don’t. However, you can’t change biology, and the sexual double standard has its roots there. For every action, there are consequences. You are free to do whatever you like, but many men and women will judge women who have sex like men. That will never change.

      Re horrible consequences from screwing around, men experience them too. They get drippy penises, genital herpes, etc. They knock up women who lie about being on the Pill or when the condom breaks, and they don’t have any say in what happens after that. Some of them get to be ATMs for 18 years. They come to view sex as a feel-good physical experience without the baggage of emotions, so that when they do wish to settle with a life partner, they’re less likely to be satisfied, and may be less capable of emotional intimacy. Promiscuous behavior has plenty of consequences for both sexes, and for society as a whole.

  • I disagree. They fuck like women who fuck like men.

    Don’t you think it’s a little unfair that men can screw around without the horrible consequences that would befall women? (HPV and shame) Why do men get to have all the fun?

    By “men” I guess you mean alphas, since betas dont fuck like what you describe.

    So you say women fuck like alphas. Add to that how easy is for a woman to get sex, and you have something that doesnt even look like how an alpha fucks.

  • “Women are less discriminate in who they are picking for mates, thus the bastard’s father is their highest status bed mates.”

    Actually, women are just as discriminate regarding who they pick. It’s just that certain social restraints have been lifted so that women can have any alpha they want.

  • Anonymous

    @Yohami

    So it’s just because it’s easy for a woman to get sex, she can’t fuck like a man? Just making sure we’re clear. The difference being that men work harder for it while women only have to be there with cleavage on display. Fair enough.

    What about a really ugly woman? She’s not fucking Alphas, even the betas don’t want her. She has to work hard to get laid, but she pulls it off and gets guys to come home with her and she never calls them again. Can she fuck like a man?

  • Blues

    Actually, women are just as discriminate regarding who they pick. It’s just that certain social restraints have been lifted so that women can have any alpha they want.

    Not quite, let’s reword it

    Actually, women are just as discriminate regarding who they pick. It’s just that certain social restraints have been lifted so that women think they can have any alpha they want.

  • Blues

    What about a really ugly woman? She’s not fucking Alphas, even the betas don’t want her. She has to work hard to get laid, but she pulls it off and gets guys to come home with her and she never calls them again. Can she fuck like a man?

    Replace guys for girls and that’s basically fucking like an alpha, also IMO that’s also projection.

  • So it’s just because it’s easy for a woman to get sex, she can’t fuck like a man? Just making sure we’re clear. The difference being that men work harder for it while women only have to be there with cleavage on display. Fair enough.

    What about a really ugly woman? She’s not fucking Alphas, even the betas don’t want her. She has to work hard to get laid, but she pulls it off and gets guys to come home with her and she never calls them again. Can she fuck like a man?

    Its not like a man, its like a woman.

  • Jonny

    “Actually, women are just as discriminate regarding who they pick. It’s just that certain social restraints have been lifted so that women can have any alpha they want.”

    To be discriminate about alphas isn’t the definition of being discriminate. She is allowing herself to be woo’d without the benefit of checking out his reliability, history, background, or promise of commitment.

  • Jamie

    @Dogsquat

    Nursing is a great example of a job that would destroy a sensitive person. I couldn’t watch a middle aged woman lose her husband to a brain tumor or a tell a high school athlete that he’s been paralyzed from the waist down. I would be upset and crying all the time. I really admire the toughness of people who can work in hospitals. Your co-worker sounds like a remarkable lady.

    I probably do look for validation of my “no men are dependable” hypothesis without really realizing it, though it might be more true to say that I’m looking for signals. Like I said before, I don’t believe all men are jerks, but a lot of them are. The problem is that I don’t think I could tell the difference. My dad seems like a nice guy, good family, nice home, helps out people in need, volunteers to teach art at his kid’s elementary school, etc. But his friends are SHOCKED when they meet me (and, presumably, my brother) because they had no idea we existed. I wish I knew what they were thinking. I wonder if they assume the worst of my mother or if they realize that their friend, the upstanding citizen, abandoned his family and moved 3000 miles away to start a new one. How do you know if the man who treats you well now will continue to do so after the baby-weight settles around your midsection?

    My issue with the business of being feminine is that I’ve invested so much time and energy repressing it, trying to be tougher, stronger, smarter, etc. I used to be a cook, I worked mostly with men and needed to prove that I could hack it. I did my own heavy lifting and used a milk crate to get things down from high shelves. Dead animals don’t phase me, I could take apart a lamb just as easily as I’d clean a fish…or a head of lettuce. I figured I wasn’t of much use unless I could do all the things that the boys did. I even looked masculine in my uniform, so I couldn’t use my feminine wiles to gain an advantage even if I wanted to. It’s not the worst thing. It’s nice to know that I can get by on my skills, that I can carry a 50 pound bag of flour up flights of stairs without help. It goes back to what I learned as a child, you have to be able to do it all so you’re not left helpless when your man leaves.

    I like that Stuart Schneiderman quote in Susan’s post, though probably for different reasons than everyone else. What is wrong with striving to possess all the qualities you admire in others?

    • @Jamie
      You’re a survivor, and I respect that. You’ve made your way in the world without the guidance of a loving father, and without depending on any male. That is an admirable achievement – many with such obstacles would have fallen apart. If you’re happy with your life, I’m certainly not telling you to be more feminine. It’s really about what you want. If my final line “you know you want to” isn’t true for you, then you should be able to say so without catching grief from me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hey Anon,

    Actually, that type of woman is exactly my cup of tea now. Never was before though. And I think far more women are like that than most beta men know.

  • Anonymous

    @ jesus

    That’s fine. Just remember that she’s not JUST a hole. You still have to be courteous. If you call her up at 3am and she comes over, you need to reciprocate when she calls you at 3am. Girls get horny too.

    • Just remember that she’s not JUST a hole. You still have to be courteous. If you call her up at 3am and she comes over, you need to reciprocate when she calls you at 3am. Girls get horny too.

      If they just call each other at 3am to come over, one’s a hole and one’s a peg. Secondly, I have never known a single guy to refuse a booty call, unless it’s from a woman he has zero attraction for. Jesus values his beauty sleep, fine, but I’m sure that means he won’t be dialing at 3am either.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There’s no way the phone is waking me up out of sleep at 3am.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    Nothing wrong with a woman who can pull her own weight. Indeed, I consider such a woman better than one who has to rely on a man for everything.

    That being said, if you want a relationship with a man, you’d do well to heed Susan’s advice. If you don’t want that, go right ahead. No one, least of all anonymous commenters on the Internet, will stop you.

    While I would run away from some girl who is too needy (neediness can become entitlement), I want someone willing to look nice for me, be pleasant to be around, and do for me as I would do for her.

    Good on you, Jamie, for not being an entitlement princess.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    I neglected to add this, Jamie, but I think I understand where you’re coming from now, though I still disagree with this idea that women are weak unless they act like men.

  • VI

    Susan,

    I think you’ll appreciate the following quote from my closest girl-friend. Women who want to act feminine are shamed by feminists. Girly girls are forced to hide their true nature.

    You know i cant admit to some girls that i like doing things like, cooking, cleaning, mending and ironing clothes, and the thought of having babies one day is quite nice
    feminist females see those activities as weakness.
    well here’s the thing… you’d be surprised how many people outwardly claim to hate or spurn those activities and roles with a relationship.. but they secretly do them
    like, individuals are afraid of presenting themselves one way so they claim liberal/feminist ideas
    a few girls i knw definitely act one way and claim another

    It’ll probably be harder for women to regain their femininity than it will be for men to regain their masculinity. Feminine women are agreeable, but for a woman to be feminine in our culture, she must disagree with prevailing attitudes. It requires her to go against all the lies she’s been told since youth.

    • @VI

      It’ll probably be harder for women to regain their femininity than it will be for men to regain their masculinity.

      I’m about to put up a post including some of the female responses on this thread. There is such confusion and apprehension around the idea of femininity, I’m surprised. Yes, women were also lied to in an effort to make the sexes into one gender. I think women are happiest when they are equal but proudly retain their difference.

  • Jeffrey

    @Susan, for the woman that says why should she be more feminine, why even read the article? But ironically even in homosexual relationships, they recognize there must be a feminine and masculine energy. “Don’t go around saying the world owes you a living; the world owes you nothing; it was here first”. Mark Twain

    • @Jeffrey

      But ironically even in homosexual relationships, they recognize there must be a feminine and masculine energy.

      I agree. There’s always a yin and yang, a leader and follower, a pursuer and distancer. This is natural. Trying to make everyone the same does not work. The balance of those roles may shift over time, and that’s OK too. Traditionally, men led and women followed. Men pursued and women distanced. Today sexually aggressive women pursue, and aggressive women try to lead in their relationships. It’s not egalitarian, it’s topsy turvy.

  • Anonymous

    Duh, Anonymous, the quote was meant as a criticism of the homogenization of the sexes in our society, not an assertion that women should be more self-reliant.

    You honestly think if women have dating problems it’s because they’re just too good and too manly for a partner? This is exactly why negging even works at all. Women have stratospheric opinions of themselves that the facts very, very seldom warrant.

  • Jamie

    @CrisisEraDynamo

    Thanks. I’ve never understood princess mentality or men who allow themselves to be henpecked. Do those women have any idea how fragile their relationship is? Do those men know they don’t have to put up with it?

    Random question: Is your username a nod to Strauss & Howe’s generational theory?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    Yes, my username is a nod to Strauss and Howe’s generational theory.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    However, if you want to learn of the latest developments in generational theory, google “Generational Dynamics”. It takes Strauss and Howe’s theory and expands it beyond Anglo-American civilization.

  • jamie

    @ CrisisEraDynamo

    Very cool. It’s nice to see someone embracing the Hero archetype and looking forward to 2025. I just picked up The Fourth Turning a few weeks ago and I’m not even halfway through. I tend to read several books at once, but this one is taking a while because it seems like a lot of repetition. I thought the wikipedia article was much more succinct and up-to-date. Still, the concept is fascinating.

  • Matt C

    You know, it’s too bad Susan that men are so concerned with getting their dicks wet that they don’t let women know that he doesn’t like the abrasive in-your-face attitude that most women have nowadays. I’m in college and most of the women I meet are either:

    1. Really abrasive to the point of being called “bitchy”.

    or

    2. Quiet.

    I like the quiet ones better.

    • @Matt C

      You know, it’s too bad Susan that men are so concerned with getting their dicks wet that they don’t let women know that he doesn’t like the abrasive in-your-face attitude that most women have nowadays

      I do wish that men would not give positive reinforcement to abrasive, aggressive women, but what’re ya gonna do? Sex is sex. I get it.

      I like the quiet ones better.

      My son chose a quiet one. That’s definitely the way to go. OK, now I have to put on my mother of girl hat. My daughter is not a quiet one, oh no. She’s not bitchy either, I hope. It’s tough as a parent. I want my son to have enough Game to keep his gf in line. And I want my daughter to choose for quality, not alpha dominance. Dammit, every guy needs Game. That’s my conclusion.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, Susan, I was joking about not getting up for the phone at 3am. I never sleep. Too much coffee and overall hypermania.

  • Jonny

    Today sexually aggressive women pursue, and aggressive women try to lead in their relationships. It’s not egalitarian, it’s topsy turvy.

    Women resent being the leader and show comtempt for men who allow it. That’s why it is wrong to be with a dominant women despite all signs that the couple is compatible. Men seems to have no such qualms except for the fact that abuse from their aggressive wives is the price that they have to accept.

    I do speak from experience. I thought letting her take control means I’m off the hook from having to make decisions that will upset her. The result was the opposite of my intention. She was still upset from her decisions and wanted me to rescue her from herself and reality. It was quite exhausting. This is probably an extreme case, but was happy that she wanted out. The only regret was I allowed this monster to happen.

    Now, I’m the dominant partner in my marriage.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So Anon, feel free to dial me up if you ever need a peg @3am… Just saying

  • Aldonza

    When I was in college, I had the opportunity to become friendly with one of the women’s studies professors. Dr. J was a proud feminist, and honestly, my first real close-up of someone who used the term as applied to herself.

    She was also one of the most feminine women I know and would have fit in with any Junior League crowd anywhere. She dressed elegantly and appropriately, preferring skirts and suits with pearls to pants. Her manners were gentile, she never swore, smoked, or drank too much, in fact, she rarely, if ever, raised her voice. But her mind was as sharp as a razor and she had no problem standing her ground in any argument. She eventually became a University President, and those who have any experience with higher educational politics will tell you that it’s a full-contact sport.

    I thank her for being my role-model in strong, feminine, womanhood.

  • Bb

    Jamie
    Your post really resonated with me. I was prepped for life the same way you were, but the difference was that my father was around to give me that advice. After having to concentrate so long on making your way into the world, advice about flirting and perfume can seem very banal.

    How do you know if the man who treats you well now will continue to do so after the baby-weight settles around your midsection?

    So sorry to hear how your dad acted. There’s no tried and true method for this, but I looked to filter for character first, above all else. I’m lucky that I can size people up very quickly. I really watch what people do, as opposed to what the say. If there’s a mismatch, something’s wrong. I’m sure you know this.

    Anyway if/when you find someone that you can trust, your guard may come down, and you won’t need to spend energy repressing femininity. Heck, it may not even matter. My husband didn’t require more femininity from me than I gave, but he’s having fun with me as I explore it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Now you know that by the standards you use to judge men, the average woman is a monster. Using those same standards, this will never change.
    Take a second to think about it from the female perspective. Imagine that your code of ethics was shaped by the female experience. Now think of how the average man thinks. We’re monsters too…

    The difference as far as I can see, is that’s it’s conventional wisdom that “all men are pigs”, even the ones who never act piggish in their life. On the flip side, it seems only a few people know admit women are just as bad, and probably worse, due to this massive cultural pedestal.

  • Mike C

    @Jamie
    .
    You make alot of good, reasonable points and overall I can appreciate your perspective. I guess the main thing I would point out is that you can and SHOULD have a different demeanor, communication style, manner of interaction in the workplace or with an auto mechanic versus dates/potential romantic partners. Nothing stopping you or contradictory with being “tough as nails” in one arena, and then dialing up the femininity and dialing down the toughness in another.
    .
    Again though, all this presupposes you are interested in attracting the largest size of potential men. My guess is somewhere between 60-90% of men are going to find the “tough bad-ass” demeanor a big-turn off, but I’m sure there is a small minority of guys that go for it.

  • Bb

    Yeah, what Mike C said!

  • Bb

    @Jamie ” Like I said before, I don’t believe all men are jerks, but a lot of them are. The problem is that I don’t think I could tell the difference. “

    Jamie, this caught my eye as well. Is your experience that you can’t tell the difference? Is your analysis always wrong about men? Or do you think you’re too filtered up to be able to see clearly? I’m trying to figure out how to help with this.

  • “It’s funny you should say this. When I was writing about the low Italian birthrate, I recalled that Mussolini urged Italians to have more babies “for the fatherland.” I believe Italians are still sensitive to this today – they strongly resent any notion that they should have more children for the sake of the country.”

    Over the past 50 years, Iran has had a darkly humorous shift in family planning policy. Khomeini broke down the Shah’s family planning policies, essentially implying that Allah willed a large population. Then in the 90’s they switched gears as the population boom was unsupportable by the national infrastructure and returned to encouraging small families.

  • Dogsquat

    @ Jaime:

    “How do you know if the man who treats you well now will continue to do so after the baby-weight settles around your midsection?”

    _________________________

    I think you’ll acknowledge that the above is a statement motivated by fear. I think this fear is pervading a lot of your thought on this thread.

    You are concerned about experiencing the debilitating pain of abandonment, loss, and feelings of inadequacy – again. That’s an entirely logical feeling – one you’d have to be a psychopath or dumb not to have.

    For whatever reason, our society looks at people experiencing fear as somehow being weak. That’s a pretty silly belief, when you think about it. Everybody is afraid sometimes.

    There is a quote buried in the Guidebook for Marines that has stayed with me:

    “Learn to recognize your fear and embrace it. Fear heightens your senses and speeds your reactions. You can fight longer and harder when you’re scared. Use your fear as a tool to help you complete your mission.”

    That’s a little different way of thinking about fear, and it might help you a little. It certainly is a different way of thinking about fear than most of society preaches.

    Perhaps harnessing your fear (using it as motivation for something positive) would allow you to take off that baby weight, or keep from doing mean/unfair things, or some other negative thing.

    Here’s another (less positive, but still effective) way to deal with fear:

    Decide that the worst thing possible is impending, inevitable, and uncontrollable. Once you really internalize this, you are able to live fully in the moment.

    I know lots of guys (me included) who’ve done this in combat. They just decide that sooner or later, they’re going to die horribly and there’s not much they can do about it. The only thing left is to do their job to the best of their ability, look out for their buddies, and try and have a few laughs along the way. Looking into the future for things to be scared of is pointless. It does nothing but fuck up your mental state. The end is already certain and it sucks, so just enjoy the ride.

    Maybe if you adopted this attitude, you could fully enjoy men for what they bring in the moment. When you experience abandonment (or what you perceive as abandonment), you won’t be taken by surprise. When a guy actually comes through for you, you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    It’s a little pessimistic, perhaps, but it does allow you to enjoy rather than avoid.

    Jaimie said:

    “It goes back to what I learned as a child, you have to be able to do it all so you’re not left helpless when your man leaves.”

    ________________________________

    Once again, you’re being logical (and fearful!). It’s also pretty minimalist, don’t you think?

    Follow me as we journey to Dogsquat’s Land of Bad Metaphors……

    All you need to live better than most people on this planet is a Tough Shed and a Port-a-Potty. If you could, though, wouldn’t you rather live in a badass loft with air conditioning, a pool table, and a wet bar? Even if it was only for a little while?

    If (when?) the loft burns to the ground, you can always go back to the shed and it’s state-of-the art monument to portable public sanitation.

    ……I hope I’m not coming off as preachy or as a know-it-all here. This stuff is just some tools I’ve found useful at different times in my life, and you might be able to use them too. Cheap at twice the price!

    • @Dogsquat

      “Learn to recognize your fear and embrace it. Fear heightens your senses and speeds your reactions. You can fight longer and harder when you’re scared. Use your fear as a tool to help you complete your mission.”

      I’ve never thought of this before – it’s about channeling the adrenalin from a flight or fight response into the fight, right? We come with this built-in boost, and we can use it if we know how.

  • Dogsquat

    Jaime, I clicked away from here and was farting around elsewhere on the internet. I was listening to music, and Tool’s song The Grudge came up.

    I don’t know if you like Tool or if you have something against excellent music for some reason – but go listen to the whole song, or at least read the lyrics. Maynard’s talking to you, baby doll.

  • Matt C

    I do wish that men would not give positive reinforcement to abrasive, aggressive women, but what’re ya gonna do? Sex is sex. I get it.

    Well, the way you framed it makes it seem like victim mentality. I didn’t mean to come off that way, but I guess men do herald sex as almighty and all powerful.

    My son chose a quiet one. That’s definitely the way to go. OK, now I have to put on my mother of girl hat. My daughter is not a quiet one, oh no. She’s not bitchy either, I hope. It’s tough as a parent. I want my son to have enough Game to keep his gf in line. And I want my daughter to choose for quality, not alpha dominance. Dammit, every guy needs Game. That’s my conclusion.

    I am not saying that a talkative girl is bitchy though. It just seems that a majority of the outspoken ones have a sort of… in your face attitude. I mean, it’s okay, I guess. Just not my personal preference.

    Not trying to diss your daughter. I’m sure she’s very nice. 🙂

  • “I’ve never thought of this before – it’s about channeling the adrenalin from a flight or fight response into the fight, right? We come with this built-in boost, and we can use it if we know how.”

    Conditioning oneself to a hormonal rush is a critical part of training for any high-intensity activity. Our football coach used to run us hard in short bursts – not just for physical conditioning but to get our minds accustomed to the activity level required to play football. Once you figure out you won’t die when your heart rate goes above 200, you think a lot more clearly in the heat of the play.

    Those who don’t understand their reactions go nuts. Michelle Langley made this point on the Tom Leykis show – in paraphrase, “women have been taught they are naturally monogamous, so when they have sexual feelings for another man they think there must be something wrong with their current man.” She then went into some sex-poz to argue women should sleep around to get used to those feelings, but that’s another story.

    I’m convinced this is a huge reason for walkaway wives. Women have been pumped full of pedestalization that they are the more moral sex, more loving etc, and when they don’t feel like like nurturing or loving their husband, they go into a cascade of “I don’t love him anymore/he must not be my soulmate/etc” and instead of working through it by accepting that this is part of the ebb and flow of relationships and letting the feeling pass, the only apparent solution is to EatPrayLove him out the door.

    • @Badger

      when they don’t feel like like nurturing or loving their husband, they go into a cascade of “I don’t love him anymore/he must not be my soulmate/etc” and instead of working through it by accepting that this is part of the ebb and flow of relationships and letting the feeling pass

      Yes, this is a real problem. Every single marriage has ebbs and flows. Every single one. If you’re an exception, be worried – your marriage is already dead. The bad patches can last a while. My husband spent a couple of years miserable at work, making me miserable (and decidedly not attracted) during that time. You put your head down, take it one day at a time and you stick around. No one ever promised that every married day would be sexy and wonderful. That’s nuts. Anyone who expects that is in for serious disappointment.

  • Doug1

    Lucy–

    1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.

    God you’re emotionally ugly. Feminist much?

    Yeah I’m into men being strong and leaders in relationships and not needy moma’s boys, but you’re beyond the pale. No thanks.

    Massive femininity fail.

  • jamie

    @Dogsquat

    Learn to recognize your fear and embrace it. Fear heightens your senses and speeds your reactions. You can fight longer and harder when you’re scared. Use your fear as a tool to help you complete your mission.

    I love this. I will definitely think of my next relationship as a “mission”. I’ve tried the worst-case-scenario thing, but that kind of thinking just provided me with a good reason to give up on my relationship. Seriously, I’m the worst sabotage, after 2 weeks (of exclusivity) with my last bf I suggested we go back to being friends because I believed that going through with it just to break up later would be a massive waste of time.

    I probably won’t have to worry about this too much though. I’ve done such a good job isolating myself since then that I hardly ever meet interesting, attractive men and when I do, I certainly don’t talk to them.

    Funny how this thread started on the topic of femininity and now I’m taking advice from the Marine’s Handbook.

  • detinennui32

    @ Kate: “I’ve read through this article and I see no explanation really as to why I, as a young woman, should follow this advice. I suppose if I was single and put a lot of stock in the opinions of the people who comment on your blog, I might “gussy myself up” a bit to try to lure in a man.”

    Kate, I hope your job, money and cats keep you company in your old age. Respectfully, if you have a man, with your attitude he will soon not be yours anymore.

  • Aldonza

    Every single marriage has ebbs and flows. Every single one. If you’re an exception, be worried – your marriage is already dead.

    I think everybody should be aware of this. Anybody who’s been married with children for more than a few years will tell you that sometimes the only reason you stayed married is because it’s too much trouble to leave. Further, it’s *normal* to feel this way. It doesn’t mean that you married the wrong person. I just means that sometimes life is hard.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yes, this is a real problem. Every single marriage has ebbs and flows. Every single one.

    I think this might be a collateral damage of the first wave of divorces. The women were seduced by feminism about they were unhappy. But then their daughters grew up with never seen a real marriage work because their mother just kept dating so they believe marriage is like dating for a long time. So they had no idea the bad part can and will come. I was raised around solid marriages so I saw all the ups and downs and I know is normal, as long as there is not abuse or cheating, everything will pass and is worth enduring it. But again endurance means pushover and men don’t deserve second chances because men never make mistakes everything they do is coldly calculated for months or years to hurt you. “He didn’t forgot to take out the trash he is doing it un purpose to make you unhappy, get out before things get worse this is just downhill from there woman, yadda yadda yadda…”

  • Women wonder why they have so many dating problems…

    Simply comes from avoid a part of their nature that makes them beautiful…

    American women suck for the most part… & need to take a lesson from foreign women…

    You are doing a wonderful service Susan… Correcting the masculization of the (American) woman & women all over…

  • Dogsquat

    Susan sagt:

    “I’ve never thought of this before – it’s about channeling the adrenalin from a flight or fight response into the fight, right? We come with this built-in boost, and we can use it if we know how.”

    ________________________

    Yes, exactly.

    Some people do this naturally and some have to learn it. Most regular folks never have to confront this at all.

    The naturals are the guys who do six tours and can’t wait to deploy again. They are never quite so alive as when they’re in combat – it’s like a drug to them. For a few minutes/hours in a fight, they feel superhuman.

    There are civilian type folks like this, too – skydivers, racecar drivers, some types of gangmembers, some types of athletes, cops who work in shitty neighborhoods, shoplifters, etc. I’ll bet some musicians and stage actors fit the mold, as well.

  • Dogsquat

    Jamie said:

    “Funny how this thread started on the topic of femininity and now I’m taking advice from the Marine’s Handbook.”

    Tune in next week and I’ll teach you to string a daisy-chain of M18A1 Claymore mines in your neighbor’s trees!

    “Seriously, I’m the worst sabotage, after 2 weeks (of exclusivity) with my last bf I suggested we go back to being friends because I believed that going through with it just to break up later would cause enough pain to outweigh all the joy of deep, lasting love, mutual respect, trust, intimacy, and the mind-blowing toe-curling yelling for Jesus sex that is only possible in a relationship.”

    I fixed the last part of that for you.

    Miss Jamie, your posts really touched me – not in my no-no place or anything, but kind of where my heart would be if I had one. I spent too many years of my life avoiding pain, rather than seeking joy. In my darker moments I’d give a kidney to have those years back. Such a waste!

    Another thing you may wish to consider is a little Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. If you know in your head you wish to achieve something/alter your behavior, but your gut won’t allow you to do it….well, there are people who spend their adult lives teaching people to overcome this unfortunate tendency.

    You don’t always have to do things the same way you’ve always done them. That’s the neat thing about the squishy grey thing we’ve got in our skulls.

    Good luck, my dear, and I truly wish you joy. Sorry about all the body organ talk up there – I had an interesting shift at the hospital and I’ve got organs on the ….brain. Or something.

  • jamie

    @Adonis

    I’ve been hearing this sentiment a lot in regards to American Women vs. Foreign Women, particularly women from Eastern Asia and Eastern Europe, but it sounds like a simple case of Grass-is-Greener syndrome. If you think Western Attitudes haven’t infiltrated Eastern Countries in the Internet Age, you’re in for a rude awakening.

    Anyway, I think this link might be of interest to you.

    It’s a pretty long list, but you’ll notice that only 3 cases were reported in the United States since 1964. Seems to be REALLY popular in China though.

  • Jamie, thank you for teaching me how to embed links

    (Thank You Susan for making it so convenient, Can you add those buttons to other sites, if so, how…?)

    Jamie… Hopefully the foreign women has not adapted to the masculinized swag of western women…

    Masculine women usually get pumped & dumped (rightfully so)… They don’t make good girlfriend’s & wives… But they make good employees tho…

    • (Thank You Susan for making it so convenient, Can you add those buttons to other sites, if so, how…?)

      I use a WordPress plugin called Comment Form Quicktags.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    For those of you that have been abroad:

    While I don’t subscribe to the grass-is-greener idea of finding a wife abroad to get someone more “traditional,” I also doubt that Asia and Eastern Europe has internalized obnoxious anti-male feminism the way the Anglosphere has.

    How true is this? Are the women of other lands really as hateful and severe as American women are taught to be?

    I see no reason to respect any woman who refuses to respect me, and I want nothing to do with relationships where everything is expected of me and nothing is expected of her — in other words, the modern, 21st century, new millennium, information age way to have a relationship. Or something.

  • Jamie

    @ Adonis

    You’re welcome. Though your apparent lack of horror and revulsion leads me to think you did not click on the link I posted. Seriously, go click. If you live in the Southwestern US, I’ll personally help clean up your vomit after.

    @CrisisEraDynamo

    I don’t think those attitudes are internalized in foreign countries, but they are probably familiar. And, like the US, women there are all across the board when it comes to feminist philosophy.

    I try to maintain a base respect for everyone, like the free space on a bingo card, just for being a person with feelings. Then I build from there. Some people only get that free space and would do well to emulate this philosophy (or just stop being so trashy).

  • @Jamie

    I didn’t get that knowledge from Roissy… I actually got that from David Shade (Masterful-Lover.com), but I bet anybody who has studied women (and/or have many experiences sleeping with them) without the influence of feminist subjectivity would come to the same conclusion I have…

    Women have a strong need to be dominated… Some stronger than others…

    Most will penalize a man if he shows weakness…

    There are endless real-world examples & studies to back up my claim… It’s silly that we are even agrument…

    Sometimes being apart of a gender can make it harder for you to see your gender for what it really is

  • SayWhaat

    Are the women of other lands really as hateful and severe as American women are taught to be?

    Asian women can be even worse, lol. Both my parents came from India (they had an arranged marriage). My parents resent each other for a lot of things, and my mother can be quite a difficult woman. My dad has told me straight to my face that this has been an unhappy marriage (yes, they’re still married).

  • Kathie

    Susan, could you please answer this?
    Why should I try to fit in some kind of gender role if I don’t feel like it and it won’t make me happy, just for the sake of having a boyfriend when I don’t even want one in the first place? I don’t think I’m very femininе by your (and apparently men’s) standarts but I’m not masculine either. However, I do feel like a woman but I don’t think this is as important as the fact that i feel like a Person. I don’t want to be just another pretty face with make-up on and quiet soft voice nor do I think the dress and the make-up (or even the soft voice) make me more feminine.
    We are People above all. We are Individuals. The dress and the make-up do not matter. Do you think me wearing high heels will make the world a better place? Will it make me a better person? Because I don’t think so. If one can’t love me for who I am, I don’t think the dress, the voice or the posture will help. And I do not want to be loved for the clothes I wear, for the way I talk and walk or for my career ambitions (or lack of them). From my experience with relationships I can say that all of these are things you come to love when you already love the person themselves.
    And sorry if my English isn’t very good but I’m not a native speaker and I’m trying to make do with what I know.

    • @Kathie
      Mike C is right. If you are happy, then there is no reason for you to change what you are doing. I write advice for men and women who would like to find something different – a relationship, or another kind of success with the opposite sex. A lot of people have difficulty navigating the dating scene in the U.S. – it may be different where you live.

      I don’t think dressing in a feminine manner will make the world a better place, but it will make you more attractive to men. If that’s not a goal of yours, then you can disregard the advice.

  • Mike C

    Susan, could you please answer this?
    Why should I try to fit in some kind of gender role if I don’t feel like it and it won’t make me happy, just for the sake of having a boyfriend *******when I don’t even want one in the first place?*******

    .
    You shouldn’t. In my opinion, as a general life rule whatever the endeavor, you should match your behavior to your objectives. Obviously, it makes no sense to alter your behavior to achieve an objective you don’t really desire. I’m not Susan, and she can correct me if I am wrong, but one of the objectives I think is “how to attract and retain a quality boyfriend/marry a quality man”.

  • Kathie

    Oh, well, I guess I skipped that part, but still. Even if I wanted a boyfriend, the personality is what attracts people to you (and not just men). This is my point. Women in general are feminine (by the standarts in this article) but so are many of the men I know. Most of my male friends adore children, they are emotionally intelligent and tactful… does that make them feminine? I think you can’t be exclusively feminine or masculine, we all just have different qualities that are not specifically feminine or masculine.

    • Most of my male friends adore children, they are emotionally intelligent and tactful… does that make them feminine?

      I don’t believe I defined any of these characteristics as belonging solely to women. In truth, there is feminine and masculine energy in everyone to some degree – it’s a spectrum. I’ve observed that American women are far less feminine than they used to be – the Women’s Movement taught us to develop our masculine traits, and suppress our feminine ones.

      Even if I wanted a boyfriend, the personality is what attracts people to you (and not just men).

      I believe you will find great resistance to this claim from the men here. Men are intensely visual, and they have an attraction switch that is either flipped or not long before your personality traits are evident. That’s not to say attraction can’t grow, but you’re really facing an uphill battle if you disregard your appearance out of the stubborn belief that only your personality should matter.

  • Kathie

    Thank you for your reply : )
    “the Women’s Movement taught us to develop our masculine traits, and suppress our feminine ones.” – I don’t see a reason why the development of some traits should suppress others. The problem is that in the past we were encouraged to develop only our feminine traits and I think that leads to disharmony. My grandmother for example couldn’t live without her parents or her husband because she had never had a job (if we don’t count cleaning the house and looking after the kids), she didn’t know how to make money and take care of herself and she wasn’t very knowledgeable because education wasn’t an option for her. Now I’m thankful that I have the right of education, the right to have a job which will allow me to take care of myself and my family one day, I’m thankful I have a choice. And I don’t think I should act as if I don’t appreciate that.
    And in my opinion pants don’t make you any less feminine if you feel and look like a woman.

  • arferdog

    I can’t help but wonder how all these claims the men here are making about preferring feminine women actually play out in real life. In my personal experience, men often punish femininity. Here’s just a few examples.

    My husband always tells me that my beauty routines, even the most basic ones such as putting on skin lotion after a shower, are a waste of time. He tries to manipulate and pressure me out of them, and says I am “hung up” over my looks, even though I am lower maintenance than most women he knows. He gets upset if I wear a skirt, and has on numerous occasions expected me to go out without even bathing. If he sees the least hint of vulnerability or emotional expressiveness from me, he yells at me, calling me a wimp and a crybaby.

    For several years, during a period of my life when I was the most feminine I have ever been, I worked in a 7-11 where most of the customers were blue collar/frat boy type men. Their petty meanness went on practically all day, every day. They’d mutter “ugly bitch” as I rang the cash register, lean over from behind me and belch in my ear, throw garbage on the floor and order me to pick it up, throw handfuls of change across the counter so hard that it scattered on the floor and yell at me to hurry while I chased after it, try to get me in trouble with the boss, and on and on. There was a clear tone of hostility to it. Making myself even more attractive and feminine made it worse. Being friendly and flirtatious made it worse. Taking it as a joke or a compliment got me reported to the boss. I tried to let it roll off my back, but after a year it started slowly eating away at me, like a nail in a glass of coca-cola.

    The only thing that made it stop was making myself as downright ugly as I could. When I came to work in my thick glasses I at least got left alone. I had decided that if that was the way men were going to treat my femininity, then they didn’t deserve it and I was a bad person for having it; and besides, I was desperate for some peace. I’d come home every day and cry (of course I didn’t cry at work where they could see!). I thought it must have been my own fault, but after I got out, I ran across a co-worker from swing shift who was prettier than me and, consequently, had been taking it a lot more of it than I did. She’d had stress related health problems because of it.

    So, what do you make of this kind of male behavior? (I call it misogyny.) Do you think that after all this, with me in my late forties, what’s left of my femininity would be worth one last ditch effort? When I read the kinds of things I see around the manosphere, especially about “cougars,” “attention whores” and so forth, I don’t think so. I know what I’m likely to get for it.

  • arferdog,

    It sounds like your husband would rather be married to a male truck driver. I guess he is either gay, or too much into feminism so he sees it as oppression, or he is sick jealous and doesnt want you to draw attention to yourself.

    Either way, he´s got major issues. File. For. Divorce. Or. Get. Help. Now.

  • +10 to Susan for the edit button. I just edited my comment three times in a row. It should be spanish-slang free now.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I was just in a art gallery (watching a bunch of original paintings, I was totally excited about that! :)) and I think painters had a very good eye capturing femininity Degas dancers, the impressionists, naturalists, renaissance, wives, mothers, country girls…in their poses the women are delicate, serene, yet strong and balanced. I think if there was anything closest to the way real women acted when not pressured by feminism to imitate men, is probably still alive in classic paintings of women, YMMV.

  • Meredita

    arferdog:  You poor dear.  You don’t have to put up with that shit, you know.  It sounds like you have been living in the seventh circle of Man Hell.  Why don’t you tell your jackass husband that you are not going to let him treat you like a piece of furniture anymore, and that if he doesn’t shape up you will walk?  After all, God loves you and wants you to be happy.  I wish you luck.

  • Anna

    This is a useful post… But what of the awkward ugly kids? (tried the makeup, it didn’t work) I grew up as one of those serious nerdy types and still am, really. I never expected a guy to take care of me and didn’t think they owed me that anyway, and I don’t like bothering others. I am pretty lousy at being subtle and feel downright uncomfortable if I do, say or wear the wrong thing. (Hijab? Burqa? Yes please! Hide it all! But I’m Methodist.)
    I’ve spoken to one surgeon about my moon-face, what should I do in the mean time to stop feeling like a girly fraud?

    Again, great post, it should help lots of normal gals who want to listen…

    • @Anna

      You are so hard on yourself! Not having seen you, I’m in no position to argue, except to say this: Every woman can do things to look her best. Being fit, eating healthy foods, dressing to flatter her body type, having her hair look nice, and yes, wearing makeup. Of course it helps. When you’ve done that, then you look around you because there are men who will be attracted to you. They are men of similar physical attractiveness as yours. As long as you are realistic and open to them, you can find a mate.

  • dulin

    So, I’m chiming in rather late, but I would like to emphasize that femininity isn’t a weakness, and you can be professional and feminine simultaneously.

    I went to an all girls school (which was a fantastic environment), so I got to explore my identity without as much exposure to gender roles. My school did educate us about successful women throughout history (we learned a ton about first wave feminism) and emphasized that girls can excel at STEM (and they had the results to prove it!). I think that actually allowed me to see femininity and a successful career as compatible.

    As a little girl, I adored wearing colorful, girly dresses, even more than the other girls. Actually, jeans were in at the time, so I was unfashionable but happy. After puberty hit, I idolized androgyny, and tried to act more masculine, and dressed accordingly. It didn’t fit me at all. The clothes were supremely unflattering (hourglass figures really, really need an emphasis on the waist), and I really just came off as awkward. By high school, I had gotten accustomed to myself body, and allowed myself to explore femininity again. I rediscovered my love of dresses and skirts, and I let myself enjoy life a bit more. For me, being feminine is being true to myself, even though I am a math nerd, and my identity in school was “the genius”.

    Being feminine (and having a dating marketplace composed of genius STEM guys) has gotten me a lot of desired male attention, despite being chubby, and not attracted many cads (possibly because of the chubbiness…). I actually do think that having a feminine personality can boost attractiveness significantly, but it seems that the effect is more significant for LTR potential than hookups.

    I’ve found that when someone disrespects me for being feminine, I tend to unleash my inner know-it-all. I’m very skilled at being a know-it-all, so it tends to get the job done. Honestly though, I haven’t had much trouble with it, and what trouble I have had was usually from women who thought I needed to be more aggressive to achieve my goals, which I contest. I don’t have any trouble making myself heard.

    That being said, I am studying for a well paying STEM job, but have no intention of climbing the corporate ladder. I’m not interested in leadership, and I enjoy having a life.

    Okay, I’ll admit: I adore making people realize that a short, young, playful, feminine girl can excel at math, read a map with ease, win an engineering contest, use a machine shop, and generally succeed as “masculine” fields, often beating all the guys. You could call me a type of feminist. I believe that by acting feminine while doing this, I send the message that women are capable of success. If I copped out, and adopted a masculine attitude, I’d feel like I was saying that this stuff is only possible for people who act like guys, which doesn’t seem very much like equality to me.

    • @dulin

      Good for you, you’re smart, accomplished and feminine! You’re comfortable in your own skin. I respect and admire that. As a STEM woman, you’re also very well positioned for dating!

  • Sai

    @dulin
    Holy guacamole, I envy you (if only for the fact your name makes me wonder if you are Chinese and I have always envied Chinese girls because they’re so freaking pretty).
    I’m glad you can be pretty and girly and brainy and successful.

    psst… not trying to use INTJ as a crutch, but is there hope for colder-hearted chicks like me? When I think of femininity I think of emotions, tears, hugs… that’s not how I function. I’m glad when people’s kids get into MIT and I’m sad when their friends die in Iraq, but I usually stink at showing it and I don’t care to discuss the weather.
    I also worried about female-ness and submissiveness to someone who happened to not be female. My answer was usually “submit to whom, Quintavious McSlacker here? Kiss my-” but I was forbidden to speak that way, so I just hid in bookstores.
    Sometimes I can be playful, but it’s the goofy kind of playful that involves doing/laughing at something silly with a family member. Flirting and teasing I don’t get because I’m oblivious to that kind of thing.
    I guess you could simplify me as half Spock, half Spongebob -but female of course.
    And trapped in a body that I loathe. Make-up and clothes just show off the things I loathe… after caking on three inches of goo, it’s still my face. XP That’s why I fail at the appearance part. (I’m not fat! Honest! Just… Unappealing.)

    I try to learn lots of different things. Maybe I could learn this too. But how?

  • Rebecca

    Susan,

    Thank you very much for this post. I think that it is really wonderful to have options — as a woman or as a man.

    I’ve never been particularly feminine myself… although I have often wished that it were more my natural inclination.

    But, I think that the most important part is that we are all allowed to express ourselves however feels best and natural.

    I come from a family of extreme extroverts — no dinner would be complete without jovial shouting. I love it. Is it feminine to get in there and compete for space and be loud and boisterous? Not so much. But, it’s who I am. And I’ve come to peace with that.

    My lack of femininity has unquestionably been a detriment to my dating life… and, IMO, a boon to my work life. I think that it is challenging to be subtle AND effective in the board room… or in a salary negotiation.

    Thank you for making me think.

    • @Rebecca

      You are welcome, thanks so much for leaving a comment! You sound a lot like me, actually – I am well aware of the struggle to find the right balance at work and outside it.

  • Emme J

    Hello from a so called “radfem.” Your professional trolling is quite amusing. Thank you for writing this piece. I was having such a hard time finding anything that was woman-hating while being simultaneously comical. Bless your heart.

    Signed,
    The SAHM sitting in pj’s, and not washing dishes.

    • @Emme J

      There really is something hilarious about getting 1,000 hits from a knitting forum featuring a bunch of foul-mouthed women spewing hate. Who woulda thunk it?

  • Gracie

    I’m a feminist. This means I believe in equality. I don’t want to be a man. I don’t dress like a man; even on the days I wear trousers, I look feminine. It’s not hard – I have curls, dimples and freckles across my nose that are associated with femininity. Put me in a dress and I look like a doll – pale skin, big eyes and a mass of curls. I’m curvy yet petite – big boobs, small waist. Sounds great, right?

    Wrong. It makes me an asshole magnet. It makes men think it’s ok to hit on me using derogatory remarkes. It makes men think that just cos they’ve had a couple of beers, they can pick me up and swing me around. That it’s ok to talk to my chest and not my face. So I don’t dress in traditionally ‘feminine’ ways. I dress for comfort, in a way that makes me feel and look good without attracting the patriachial bullshitters that want to keep me in the kitchen and massaging their feet.

    Let’s talk about the opposite side of the ‘feminism’ argument. Let’s talk about how as the feminism movement gained grounds (and let’s note that women still aren’t paid the same as men and our reproductive rights are under threat to name a couple of FEMINIST issues that need addressing), the rise of hypermasculinity occured. This meant that being a ‘man’ was no longer about being a ‘family man’ or ‘provider’ but being an arsehole – sleeping with as many women as possible, objectifying them, increasingly selfish behaviour and disrespecting women became the norm. You think women have changed? Men have changed and not for the better.

    You want women to be feminine? Then get men to return to the traditional male role – that of family man who respects the women he comes into contact with, as well as other people. Oh some things will still be the same – from the article and the comments, the one thing that won’t change is the expectation that women are only here to please men and should bow to their expectations.

    Feminism is not to blame for the current social climate; things are never that black and white. There are many reasons we are where we are today and I, for one, will NEVER return to ‘traditional’ gender roles because that will not solve anything.

    PS – I’m married and my hubby wants to be a stay at home father. His temperment makes him much more suitable for it. While there are biological differences between genders, it is limited to reproductive organs – anything he can do, I can do equally and vice versa. While our brains may be wired slightly differently, behaviour can be learnt and shaped. Trying to use science as a way to get women back in the kitchen/act in a way to please men is bullshit.

    • @Gracie

      Wrong. It makes me an asshole magnet. It makes men think it’s ok to hit on me using derogatory remarkes. It makes men think that just cos they’ve had a couple of beers, they can pick me up and swing me around. That it’s ok to talk to my chest and not my face. So I don’t dress in traditionally ‘feminine’ ways. I dress for comfort, in a way that makes me feel and look good without attracting the patriachial bullshitters that want to keep me in the kitchen and massaging their feet.

      You have been very poorly served by your sex-positive feminist sisters, who have attempted to be proudly independent and sexually objectified to the extreme simultaneously. The Sexual Revolution created a lot of this behavior, because so many women welcome it and even seek it. No-strings sex and Grrrrrllls Gone Wild with sexual aggression have created a culture where they grab the junk of strangers in bars, and expect to be grabbed in return.

      This meant that being a ‘man’ was no longer about being a ‘family man’ or ‘provider’ but being an arsehole – sleeping with as many women as possible, objectifying them, increasingly selfish behaviour and disrespecting women became the norm. You think women have changed? Men have changed and not for the better.

      Women created those men. Why be a provider, when the asshole gets all the girls? The worst men get the most sex. Women flock to Dark Triad males (narcissism, Machiavellianism, sociopathy) – they have far more sexual partners than anyone else. If women actually selected men for character rather than asshole dominance (as they were forced to by society before the Sex Rev) we would still mate assortatively, there would be more commitment and longer lasting relationships.

      While there are biological differences between genders, it is limited to reproductive organs – anything he can do, I can do equally and vice versa. While our brains may be wired slightly differently, behaviour can be learnt and shaped. Trying to use science as a way to get women back in the kitchen/act in a way to please men is bullshit.

      You are wrong. The biological differences are considerable in the brain alone and largely genetic. There is some shaping of behavior, but:

      Biology Drives Gender

  • @Gracie

    “Then get men to return to the traditional male role – that of family man who respects the women he comes into contact with”

    How about we all give respect to those that deserve it?
    i.e. not lying, hate filled, misandric rad-fem bitches like you.

    “(and let’s note that women still aren’t paid the same as men and our reproductive rights are under threat to name a couple of FEMINIST issues that need addressing) ”

    people that spout that bullshit don’t deserve anything but mockery and hatred. That shit was debunked decades ago.

  • Gracie

    @Mosquito

    So when government statistics state that women still get paid less than men, they’re lying? When the Office for National Statistics state that women get paid less than men, they’re lying? When newspapers like The Guardian report on these statistics that women still get paid less than men, they’re lying? This is not something that I’ve pulled out of my ass. This isn’t a feminist conspiracy to make men the lesser sex. This is a fact. And it’s data from 2011, not 1911.

    The argument about birth control is an attack on reproductive rights. It’s also an attack on women’s autonomy over their own bodies and their own lives. Again, this issue is not black and white but the arguments presented by certain groups of people would make you think it is. Birth control is used by many women so that they can be economically productive – without it, they would be unable to function in society for 60+ days of the year. Birth control is used by many women so that they can only produce the children that they can afford and not rely on the state. It’s a social and economic issue, as well as a feminist issue.

    Secondly, I’m not a radical feminist. Just as there are different forms of socialism, Marxism, capitalism, etc there are different forms of feminism. All feminists have things in common – a desire for equality for all people – but the extent to which they will pursue it and how they define certain constructs differs. Again, it’s shades of grey.

    From the 1960s onwards, there has been a steadfast portrayal of feminists in popular media as men haters, lesbians, bra burners, feminazis and whining victims. If you’ve been suckered into that backlash mentality and aren’t willing to learn what feminism actually is, then maybe you’re the one with the problem.

    @Susan Walsh

    Again, I think you need to learn what feminism actually is. Not all feminists are women. My hubby is a feminist. My brother is a feminist. I have male and female friends who are feminists. I don’t sleep around and didn’t before I was married. My friends don’t sleep around. My brother doesn’t sleep around. We don’t judge people for living lives that differ to ours so long as they aren’t hurting people. You can be a working mother or a SAHM, we don’t care, so long as you and your family are healthy and happy.

    You have slut shamed a number of people with your comment simply because of their belief in equality. Let’s not ignore that any function of a woman’s body that is not directly sexually alluring for men (such as menses, breastfeeding or pregnancy) are subject to mostly negative messages which stigmatise the act (though thankfully, there is resistance). Let’s also not ignore the discourses created by MEN during the sexual revolution who saw it as a way to legitimise their own sexual freedom and used it for their own benefit. Or the adverisers who used ‘sex’ to increase revenue for their clients, claiming that the sexual revolution was good for everyone. Women are exposed, either directly or indirectly, to pressures to conform to cultural beauty ideals and even encouraged to present themselves as sex objects (for men) under the FALSE pretext of sexual liberation and post-feminism.

    Your article above, while purporting to be about femininity, is encouraging women to present themselves in an idealised way that appeals to men. The only difference is that you are citing a patriachial view, instead of a faux-feminist view.

    As for the link you provided, I’m not going to read it. I don’t care what it says – the minute I realised it linked to another of your posts, it got ignored. You want to make an argument by linking to a text, then you need to eliminate author bias; link to external academic literature – balanced with both sides of the argument – not to an article that you’ve written because that only gives one perspective.

    Re gender and biology, “sex” is the biological term for the differences between men and women. “Gender” is the social construct, the learned behaviours and social ‘norms’ that differentiate the sexes. You give birth to a male child, raise him in an environment where he’s told he has to wear make up, dresses and nurture people, without any external influence, and he will internalise those lessons and act in a ‘feminine’ way.

    Every single point that you posted above, from 1 – 6, is a social construct. There isn’t any biology involved in those.

    • Again, I think you need to learn what feminism actually is. Not all feminists are women. My hubby is a feminist. My brother is a feminist. I have male and female friends who are feminists. I don’t sleep around and didn’t before I was married. My friends don’t sleep around. My brother doesn’t sleep around. We don’t judge people for living lives that differ to ours so long as they aren’t hurting people.

      I know very well what feminism is and proudly call myself a gender equity feminist. Unfortunately, the movement, though fragmented, has been highjacked by sex-positive young women – that is the contemporary face of feminism. In addition, many other feminists proudly campaign for female supremacy, not equality. Just observe the high fives over “the end of men.” College enrollment in the U.S. is 60% female. Men are in trouble here. Where’s the concern over half of our population? There isn’t any by women, despite the fact that the marriage rate is declining and 1/3 of female college graduates won’t even have the opportunity to partner with a man of the same education level in the next 20 years.

      I strongly believe that a promiscuous, vulgar culture hurts all of us. The $ are massive, but even worse is the coarsening of society, the rapid spread of STDs, and increasing number of children born OOW. This is what feminism has wrought.

      As for the link you provided, I’m not going to read it. I don’t care what it says – the minute I realised it linked to another of your posts, it got ignored

      That’s hilarious. So typical of a radfem. Fingers in ears, singing la la la la at the top of your lungs. I don’t engage willfully ignorant people. Enjoy the decline, you’re orchestrating it.

  • @Gracie
    “So when government statistics state that women still get paid less than men, they’re lying?”
    Not lying, but not telling the truth – are you really that fucking stupid?

    Because they don’t compare men and women working the same hours in the same jobs with the same experience.

    Men work dangerous jobs – women don’t. 95%+ of workplace deaths are men.
    Men work longer hours – more money – duh.
    Women prize flexibility over money – lifestyle over cash. They don’t pick careers that take over lives as often as men.

    But most of all, you moron, it is illegal to pay women less for the same job, and has been from the birth of title ix. Don’t tell me women aren’t taking legal action when they are able to. They are not able to take action because it isn’t true…and you know it.

    Pay for your own birth control – like men do.

    “what feminism actually is”
    I know exactly what it is, and what it is full of.
    The red-pill is coming baby, whether you delusiuonal, dishonest misandrists are ready for it or not.