AskMen’s Great Male Survey Results

July 25, 2012

The annual AskMen Great Male Survey is out (H/T Zach) and it always provides interesting fodder for discussion. There’s also a smaller companion Female Survey, administered by the website Pop Sugar.

A note about the respondents:

AskMen is an online men’s lifestyle site whose mission is “helping guys become better men.” They target ages 18-34, and have 19 million readers per month. 

PopSugar is a women’s lifestyle site, targeting females 18-40, with 28 million readers per month. This is PopSugar’s first year hosting the female survey – the prior two years it was hosted by Cosmopolitan magazine. 

The total number of survey takers is more than 50,000, and that is not split between women and men. In recent years, the male survey alone garnered over 50,000 responses, and last year the female survey had 13,000 respondents. 

The male survey splits results out by country, including the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia. The female survey does not break it down.

I have no information re sexual orientation of the respondents.

Some of the responses on the female survey seem a little wacky, as you’ll see. It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test, but I offer the findings here for you to debate as you will.

Here are the most interesting results:

Update: I forgot a couple of great questions!

What is the ultimate male status symbol?

A family:  41%

A high-profile career:  31%

A beautiful wife or girlfriend:  15%

A beautiful car: 6%

A beautiful house: 5%

A membership to an exclusive club: 2%

50% of American man said “a family.”

 

What defines a “real woman” in 2012?

Being financially independent: 24%

Being successful and fulfilled in her career: 21%

None of the above:  15%

Being a great mother and wife who takes care of her family:   14%

Being charismatic and popular: 1%

Being attractive and a great lover: 25%

 

1. Of the four choices listed below, which is the most important personality trait for deciding if a woman is “relationship material”?

 

A sense of loyalty: Men 36%, Women 42%

A sense of caring/nurturing: Men 23%, Women N/A

The ability to protect: Men N/A, Women 28%

A sense of humor: Men 22%, Women 7%

Intelligence: Men 19%, Women 23%

American men prioritized loyalty much more highly than other men (47%) and ranked intelligence second (21%). British men rank sense of humor as important as loyalty, both at 30%.

2. Do you believe in the institution of marriage?

 

Yes, I believe it is a necessary institution and one in which I will participate to help preserve:

Men 70%, Women 44%*

Yes, I believe in it as an institution, but it is not for me:

Men 18%, Women 20%

No, I do not believe in it:

Men 12%, Women 36%

*This is the first wacky number. The 2011 Great Female Survey indicated that 83% of women selected this option. I can’t explain why it would have decreased 47% in one year. Here is a 2011 chart from Pew Research that shows the sexes in line re marriage (U.S. only):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

American men are the most committed to marriage (79%), Brits the least (61%).

3. How satisfied are you with your sex life?

 

Somewhat satisfied; there is room for improvement: Men 41%, Women 24%

I have no sex life: Men 12%, Women 27%

Not satisfied with quantity: Men 14%, Women 5% 🙂

Completely satisfied: Men 14%, Women 19%

Not satisfied with quality: Men 7%, Women 25% 🙂

“There’s an old joke – um… two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of ’em says, “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.” The other one says, “Yeah, I know; and such small portions.””

Woody Allen

American men are the most satisfied (67% are completely or somewhat satisfied), and have the fewest celibates (12%, less than half the other countries).

4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?

 

If he/she’s slept with more than 10 partners previously: Men 43%, Women 24%

If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%

I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%

If he/she’s slept with more than one other partner previously: Men 10%, Women 32%*

If he/she’s slept with more than 100 partners previously: Men 6%, Women 11%

*This is the other wacked result IMO. Manwhore shamer that I am, even I don’t believe that a third of women are bothered by a guy’s having had 2 previous partners. 

5. Who should pay on a date?

 

Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%

Him: Men 49%, Women 43%

Her: Men 0%, Women 0%

Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.

6. Marriage Potential

About half of men say wife potential is somewhat important, though they won’t break up with a girl if she doesn’t have it. A third consider it essential, and the rest don’t care.

In contrast, only a quarter of women in the female survey report that it is somewhat important. Nearly half say it doesn’t matter at all, approximately the same number that indicated in the previous question that they do not intend to marry.

7. Prenups are not controversial.

35% of men say a woman’s signing one is very important or somewhat important. 42% of women are happy to sign, and another 41% of women would demand the man sign a prenup.

8. Cheating

When asked if they would cheat on a partner if they could get away with it, 73% of men were unlikely to do so, compared to 68% of women.

9. Letting yourself go

54% of men would dump a woman if she got fat. 33% of women would dump a man for adding the kilos.

10. Sexting

More than half of women have sent racy photos of themselves to spark or maintain attraction, while only a third of men have done so. 31% of women would share racy pics with friends, while 83% of men say “they are for my eyes only.”

11. Lying about # of sexual partners

53% of men have lied about the number of partners they’ve slept with.

No corresponding data for women. Why didn’t they ask that??? Is it because they assumed it’s 100%? 🙂

12. STD Testing

73% of men and 61% of women have been tested for STDs 0 or 1 times.

13. Cad moves

42% of men have or would be willing to falsely tell a woman they love her just to get her to have sex.

14. You wish.

81% of men never have anal sex.

15. Would you be offended if a woman faked an orgasm with you?

 

Yes, I would be offended that I wasn’t able to pleasure her. 58%

Yes, I would be offended that she was deceiving me. 25%

No. 17%

34% of men have faked orgasms. The 58% explains why women fake them in the first place. It also explains why they’re dissatisfied with the quality of sex.

16. How often do you fake orgasms?

 

Never: 33%

Rarely: 26%

Often: 15%

Every time: 26%

Don’t do it ladies, you’ll only paint yourself into a corner it is very difficult to crawl out of. 

17. Aging gracefully

About a third of women say men start losing their looks at 30, but 21% say never. 39% of men say a woman starts losing her looks at 40, 17% say never (???) and 6% say 60 (whoo hoo!).

18. Male birth control

American men are more interested in male birth control than any other group – 86% would take it, compared to 73% overall. Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.

3,2,1 Let’s go!

  • Passer_By

    “If he/she’s slept with more than one other partner previously: Men 10%, Women 32%*”

    Maybe the women misinterpreted the question and said it would bother them because of the anxiety of being compared. That’s the best I can come up with. Of course, in real life, most of those 32% would lose attraction if the guy had less than 2 prior partners.

  • Donkey
    • @Donkey

      50,000 male hamsters? I’m surprised to see a guy suggest it.

  • Just1X

    “helping guys become better men.”

    so, a bit like the Good Mangina Project then? Bit like a survey on religious values carried out at a religion based Uni? If you survey blue pill guys, should you expect anything except blue pill results? “It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test” – bingo for the boiz too.

    Having said that, there are intersting bits

    “American men are more interested in male birth control than any other group – 86% would take it, compared to 73% overall.”
    Ha! told you men want the option
    “Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.”
    That is spectacularly missing the point of why men want the option. They don’t trust the women and/or don’t want to roll the 18years+ of chilmoney dice (i.e. does she decide to have it, or not?)

    • so, a bit like the Good Mangina Project then?

      No, more like a players paradise, with articles like “The Ten Best Racks in Hollywood, Built for Comfort and Speed.”

  • Lokland

    Seems like quite a bit of it shows women as what the manosphere describes to a tee.

    • Seems like quite a bit of it shows women as what the manosphere describes to a tee.

      Sorry, how so? It’s not obvious to me.

  • “Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.”

    If you work out the math, there is a much different story. The results are equally split between the man paying and sharing, with no one reporting that the woman should pay. If both think the man pays, the man pays 100%, if they both think they should share, the man pays 50%. In the case that they disagree, assume that 50% of the time, the man pays, and 50% of the time they share.

    If you work that out, over many dates, the man pays 75% of the cost of the dates, and the woman pays 25%. So, yes, the women are getting a good deal.

    • @Eric Busboom

      If you work that out, over many dates, the man pays 75% of the cost of the dates, and the woman pays 25%. So, yes, the women are getting a good deal.

      They may be, but the usual claim that women are gold diggers is clearly disproved, as women are more anxious to contribute than men would like. IOW, women don’t go on dates with men they are not attracted to for the free steak.

  • Just1X

    “women are more anxious to contribute than men would like”

    not 100% sure that you worded that optimally, I get what you meant. I’m sure men would prefer 50-50, speaking of which; I’ve just been having fun on this thread;
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9414743/Love-in-the-time-of-austerity.html

    which is, I admit, talking about women slightly over PopSuger’s 18-40, but not by much. The Telegraph is more upmarket than the Daily Mail, but the attitudes reek! Enjoy

  • Just1X

    “The Ten Best Racks in Hollywood, Built for Comfort and Speed.”

    I’ll take a look some time, soumds promising (for research purposes, clearly)

    Where does ‘better men’ come in then? I doubt even PUAs call themselves ‘better men’, ‘better’ wouldn’t be seen as relevent (I wouldn’t have thought so, anyway)

  • Ramble

    5. Who should pay on a date?

    Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%

    Him: Men 49%, Women 43%

    Her: Men 0%, Women 0%

    Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.

    No it’s not. Though, I don’t think girls are going out for free food.

  • Observer

    “*This is the first wacky number. The 2011 Great Female Survey indicated that 83% of women selected this option. I can’t explain why it would have decreased 47% in one year. Here is a 2011 chart from Pew Research that shows the sexes in line re marriage (U.S. only):”

    The explanation for this is one of context. In 2011, there wasn’t as much press for the push for gay marriage as there is now. I bet that when those 2012 women hear the term “preserve the institution of marriage” they interpret that action as “keep it defined as between man/woman only”, rather than the “retain the idea of men and women together in matrimony as a valued cultural institution” definition that probably held that space in their minds last year.

    Hence, the massive decline – due to the large, well-cultivated base of gay marriage support among 18-40 women out there.

    • @Observer

      Hence, the massive decline — due to the large, well-cultivated base of gay marriage support among 18-40 women out there.

      That’s a great insight, very plausible.

      I wondered too about the political implications of “how do you define a real woman?” It sounds like an agenda – what should a woman be like, rather than asking the respondent what is most important to them personally.

  • I hate to rain on this parade, but any self-reporting data related to sex and relationships is going to be almost worthless. Why? because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.

    Also, people will provide results based on what they would like sex, dating, and relationships should be, not how things actually are.

    A Manosphere dictum is “actions over words”.

    These kinds of surveys are basically a bunch of words.

    • @Private Man

      because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.

      How do you know this? I know I would answer such a survey in a way that reflected my real attitudes, because I would want my POV to be counted, and influence the total. How could expectations possibly come into play during an anonymous online survey where there is literally no mechanism for accountability or discovery?

      Actions over words is always useful, and it’s hardly limited to the manosphere. Women could avoid most cads if they adhered to that dictum.

      But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.

      I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless.

      Finally, what answers do you think reflect expectations rather than truth? What do men feel compelled to lie about in order to fulfill society’s expectations in 2012?

  • @Ms. Walsh:
    “5. Who should pay on a date?

    Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%

    Him: Men 49%, Women 43%

    Her: Men 0%, Women 0%

    Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.”

    O: Are you sure?

    This Young Woman Scored $1,200 A Month In Fancy Dinners Using Match.com
    http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-29/news/30453560_1_match-com-roommates-japanese-restaurant

    All it takes is one… 😉

    Besides, the survey doesn’t ask anything about how Men or Women feel about Women truly upending all that oldhat patriarchal stuff and offering to pay for the first date; Kay Hymowitz calls this the “bait and switch” tactic not an insigificant amount of Women do indeed use when it comes to dating and just about anything else when they decide they want things to be more “traditional”:

    “That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

    Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.”

    Why Are Men So Angry?
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/28/why-are-men-angry-manning-up-author-kay-hymowitz-explains.html

    O: This is a very important issue, Ms. Walsh – and no matter how much we may want to poo-poo it – it matters. Hugely. To arguably millions of Men, who have and are beginning to vote with their feet – and videogame controllers.

    More in a sec…

    O.

  • Mike M.

    @ Obsidian:

    I think women need to relearn the Fine Art Of The Invitation. Men expect to pursue women…but women have forgotten how to communicate that their answer would be “Yes”.

  • Joe

    Susan – a fun survey, for sure.

    But I too really don’t understand how you get from the “statistics” on who pays for dates to: “Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.” I read your follow-up in the comments above, but it just doesn’t seem to follow.

    I put the word “statistics” in scare quotes. There’s an important axiom that always has to be considered. Self-selected surveys are never correct, by definition.

    Or, as Gregory House would say, people lie.

    • @Joe

      But I too really don’t understand how you get from the “statistics” on who pays for dates to: “Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.”

      It’s been common for some of the men here to claim that by and large, women go on dates with men they do not find attractive for the free meal. Some of those men have gone so far as to claim sex is the appropriate payment for said meal.

      In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.

      The statistics disprove the “gold digger” generalization.

  • GudEnuf

    Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.

    Lol, and we’re supposed to trust women to take it?

  • Passer_By

    @observer, susan

    “#Observer

    Hence, the massive decline — due to the large, well-cultivated base of gay marriage support among 18-40 women out there.

    That’s a great insight, very plausible.”

    Sounds plausible at first, but on closer examination doesn’t pass the smell test. Those women would then have to vote for either “Marriage is not for me” or “I don’t believe in marriage”. Those were the three choices. Supporting gay marriage would not make them pick door number 2 or door number 3.

    Seems like there’s a sampling error of some sort here.

  • Bully

    Obsidian’s links explain one of my biggest problems with dating nowadays.

    Let’s put this way: I love my STEM career. I signed up for it when I was young and naive, and now that I’m entrenched in it, I know no other way to live as it is.. but if I were to lose my job for whatever reason, I’d be through with the high-paying, high-effort route because society has shown me again and again that it’s just not respected.

    Probably sell all I own and become a professional gambler instead.

  • Ion

    “They may be, but the usual claim that women are gold diggers is clearly disproved, as women are more anxious to contribute than men would like. IOW, women don’t go on dates with men they are not attracted to for the free steak.”

    I agree Susan. Two men got pretty uncomfortable when I offered to pay in the past. So I thought, “if I pay, will he think I don’t like him?”I was thinking about next date I go on just offering, and if he says no, bringing cash and insisting on paying the tip and desert. The “don’t do anything expensive”advice is golden. Dates by romantic candlelight in an expensive restaurant can get awkward anyway, so much pressure.

  • Wants to know

    @Mike M.

    Just as a matter of curiosity tell us about The Fine Art of Invitation.

  • Ramble

    @Private Man

    because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.

    How do you know this? I know I would answer such a survey in a way that reflected my real attitudes, because I would want my POV to be counted, and influence the total. How could expectations possibly come into play during an anonymous online survey where there is literally no mechanism for accountability or discovery?

    I am not making any statements about this particular survey, but, I remember reading this really interesting study in college.

    These researcher asked a bunch of people how many sexual partners they had had. They promised them that the survey would be completely anonymous.

    The people were broken up into 3 groups:
    Group 1 answered the survey, anonymously, but a researcher sat in the room, across from them, as they filled in the checks and boxes on the survey and when they were done, handed the survey to the researcher.

    Group 2 also answered anonymously, and also had a researcher in the room, but the researcher did not sit anywhere near the person and the person filling in the survey did not hand it to the researcher, but simply slipped it into a slot like a mailbox.

    Group 3 had the most anonymous method of all. No researcher in the room with them. No interaction at all. And the researchers would not even see them drop the survey into the box.

    For men, Group 1 reported having the most conquests and Group 3 (the most anonymous) reported the fewest, with Group 2 in the middle.

    For women, Group 1 reported being the most chaste and Group 3 reported having been banged by the most guys, with Group 2 in the middle.

    Another research paper I read had to do with how questions were worded. This one had to do with School Choice (i.e. Charter Schools, Vouchers, Tuition Tax Credits, etc.) and it was fascinating to see how slight changes in words and phrasing would really affect the results.

  • Ramble

    “Group 3 reported having been banged by the most guys, with Group 2 in the middle.”

    I probably could have phrased that better.

  • I think the limited value of the self-reported data here can be seen on the very first question.

    It’s pretty obvious that men were choosing to give the boy scout manual answer.

    • It’s pretty obvious that men were choosing to give the boy scout manual answer.

      But why would they? Why lie? There’s no one to give them brownie points. Why would men in their 20s taking a survey online be anything but truthful?

      Also, with 80% of men wanting to marry, it doesn’t seem so surprising that half would value family, does it?

  • Ramble

    But why would they? Why lie? There’s no one to give them brownie points. Why would men in their 20s taking a survey online be anything but truthful?

    Why do so many anonymous men white knight on Reddit?

    I am not saying this survey was bullshit, but, there are definitely examples of anonymous men white knighting.

  • But on reddit they get karma points if the “group” likes what they say. In an anonymous survey there are no points.

  • Joe

    Susan, I think I understand what you’re seeing.

    In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.

    But I also think I see why it didn’t seem to parse correctly. (Literally! The first time I read it, my reaction was that the two halves of the sentence didn’t fit together – very strange!)

    What I was looking at (and what I thing the others who commented on it saw too) was this:

    5. Who should pay on a date?

    Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%

    Him: Men 49%, Women 43%

    Her: Men 0%, Women 0%

    Approximately half thought that men should always pay, and no one thought that women should always pay. The idea that this was about meals in return for sex (or about gold-digging) didn’t really show up in this line of thought. What did was a thought about basic fairness.

    The survey shows that slightly more than half of everybody thinks that men and women should share equally in the cost of dating, and that’s fine. But the other half? Apparently a large number of them think the burden falls solely on the male. I suspect that is what I and others were seeing.

    • @Joe

      Apparently a large number of them think the burden falls solely on the male. I suspect that is what I and others were seeing.

      I would have been very surprised if anyone had suggested that women pay for dates. On what basis? There is enormous precedent, social, cultural and biological, for men in the provider role. Frankly, I was pleased to see two things:

      1. 57% of women are happy to pay their own way.
      2. Half of men still harbor a provider instinct.

      It’s my fault for referring to a recent convo here about all women being gold diggers and taking advantage of men by demanding expensive dates without putting out sexually after dinner. I can see why it seems like a non sequitur.

  • Ramble

    But on reddit they get karma points if the “group” likes what they say. In an anonymous survey there are no points.

    Fair point.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Regardless of what the results are, I think the questions and answers are very poorly worded. I feel like undergrad interns from my school could’ve written a better survey.

    • I think the questions and answers are very poorly worded.

      I agree, and furthermore I think the choices were too limited, or off somehow. I’ve already seen some blog posts complaining about the design of the survey. For example, it makes no sense to ask women whether they would trust male birth control. It would only be on the market if it were effective, so trust has nothing to do with it. Did they mean to ask if women would trust men to take it? That’s an entirely different question.

  • Mike C

    I hate to rain on this parade, but any self-reporting data related to sex and relationships is going to be almost worthless. Why? because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.

    …….

    These kinds of surveys are basically a bunch of words.

    Yup. I couldn’t say it any better than this:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/dont-pay-attention-to-psych-surveys-that-amount-to-self-fortune-telling/

  • Mireille

    Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore.

    This is too funny!

    • @Mireille

      Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore.

      This is too funny!

      I confess I’ve been chuckling over this myself. I’m supposed to take an anonymous online anecdote as fact but dismiss a survey with a sample size of over 50,000. Or believe that all those men were white knighting – WTF – AskMen is basically a site for douchebags!

      Meanwhile, before I put my analysis up with the wacky female responses, Obsidian and others here were triumphant in their claims that the survey proves women are looking for players rather than husbands. Now the silence is deafening.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Badger definitely nailed my viewpoint… the hypothetical nature of a lot of the survey questions is what keeps me skeptical.

    • Badger definitely nailed my viewpoint… the hypothetical nature of a lot of the survey questions is what keeps me skeptical.

      Skeptical is good. Dismissive is not. Not saying you’re guilty of that, but there’s a very clear pattern here of knee jerk rejection of anything that suggests:

      1. Men want to marry and have children.
      2. Women vary in their tendency toward short-term mating.
      3. Men vary in the tendency toward short-term mating.
      4. Women are capable of finding dominant slackers unattractive.

      It’s not as if I’m cherry picking studies. I cover virtually every study that is published. The fact that most of the recent research – which comes out of the very same discipline Game does – is very much in agreement, across study designs, sample sizes, and location, paints a very clear picture.

      Saying all the research is invalid is silly, as it suggests that it’s not worth asking people what they think or what choices they’ve already made. Research is never perfect, but refusing the ask the questions strikes me as an indication of fear. Ignorance is bliss, etc.

  • Thrasymachus

    I agree with The Private Man, MikeC and Jimmy Hendricks. For several reasons surveys of this type concerning sex and relationships should be taken with a grain of salt. This does not apply to all polling. Political polls, for example, are reasonably accurate.

    • @Thras

      For several reasons surveys of this type concerning sex and relationships should be taken with a grain of salt.

      Grain of salt or dismissed entirely? I’m curious to know why you believe the survey is inaccurate. I have shared some of my own reservations re the sample, but I wonder what else you’re seeing.

  • Abbot

    Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric

  • Abbot

    That is, the anti-cock-count-consideration advocate

  • Kathy

    “Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore”

    Could not agree more, Mireille.

    “But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.

    I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless. ”

    Mireille nails it Susan.

    Logic tells you that there is no benefit in lying in these anonymous surveys.
    Pointless!

    In the end people believe what they want to believe.

    Perhaps to reinforce their own steadfast beliefs? 😉

  • Kathy

    Reminds me of the “All women want a sexually experienced man” BS meme.. Nothing a woman can say or do will convince some men otherwise.

    It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man, because, just like the PUA’s that’s all that they are after… Sex.. But for different reasons..

    The men want the sex because it feels good.. The sluts want it for personal affirmation. He wants ME!!!!!

    This is why it is so important for young women to realize that giving it up just to reinforce ones attractiveness and appeal (to men) is a lost cause.

  • Abbot

    “It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man”

    Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior although even those men tend to switch to non sluts when seeking a life partner

    “giving it up just to reinforce ones attractiveness and appeal (to men) is a lost cause”

    Ironically, it actually reduces her long term appeal [to men]

    There can be no positive long term romantic outcome for nearly all women who have sex with multiple men unless the current desperate campaign to get men to change their universal view of such women succeeds.

  • Iggles

    @ Ion:

    I agree Susan. Two men got pretty uncomfortable when I offered to pay in the past. So I thought, “if I pay, will he think I don’t like him?”I was thinking about next date I go on just offering, and if he says no, bringing cash and insisting on paying the tip and desert. The “don’t do anything expensive”advice is golden. Dates by romantic candlelight in an expensive restaurant can get awkward anyway, so much pressure.

    I’ve had similar experiences!

    Anytime I offered to pay, the men were both confused and offended. They always said no and covered the cost.

    One time I insisted on paying for my own movie ticket and popcorn on a second date because I was the one who suggested that we go. But it just made things awkward between us. I can’t even say this is an American phenomenon because he was French! (And another guy who insisted on paying was also European).

    I finally decided that in the early dating phase I wouldn’t offer to pay. It was uncomfortable at first but things went a lot smoother. My theory is, on the first few dates the guy is trying to impress you – so let him! The guys I dated took pride in covering the bill. We weren’t going to swanky $200 restaurants either. Movies, walks in the park, coffee, dinner (maybe $70 at most! But usually a lot less, say $40).

    Now with my bf there’s a lot more flexibility. Often we each pay our own way, or he covers the bill and I cover the tip. He still pays in full for things from time to time, and occasionally I pay in full for small stuff.

  • Kathy

    “Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior ”
    Good point Abbot.

  • Ramble

    Mireille, Kathy, just so you understand, Susan herself says that she does not believe this survey, or, at least part of it.

    To quote:

    It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test, but I offer the findings here for you to debate as you will.

    So, when you shoot your shotgun,

    Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore.

    Just make sure you know where you are aiming it.

    • @Ramble

      To clarify, the female survey in particular seems off. I wouldn’t present it to a client. I am suspicious of the male survey simply by virtue of association.

      Having said that, the sample size is ridiculously large for the men, the data is broken out by country, and the responses are very interesting. I wouldn’t take any of this to the bank, but I think it’s worth discussing as opposed to dismissing out of hand.

      Readers don’t agree tho, obvs, as this thread has generated few comments.

  • Kathy

    I was quoting Susan here.

    “But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.

    I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless. ”

    Sorry, for the confusion Ramble. I did not make that clear..

  • Ted D

    I’m actually not very surprised by the poll results. To me it pretty much just tells me that most men are still fully plugged into the Matrix. In particular when it comes to marriage, but I think most of the results are pretty indicative of men still operating under the blue pill set of rules.

    Now the women’s results are a bit more interesting to me. it seems women are by and large fully embracing their new freedoms and empowerment, while men are for the most part willingly taking a back seat.

    But, as others have said, I don’t put a lot of faith in these polls.

  • Ion

    @ Iggles: “I can’t even say this is an American phenomenon because he was French! (And another guy who insisted on paying was also European).”

    Lol its American men too! These guys just didn’t understand why I was willing to pay. I also got the “your money’s no good here” and a smile from a hot teacher (literally, the science teacher you have a crush on in high school). I admit it, I was tingly…so what…lol.

    “My theory is, on the first few dates the guy is trying to impress you – so let him! ”

    Precisely! Especially in a day in age where there’s no other way to indicate interest. Look at NYC for example, here guys don’t walk you to your door (you both take the train home), they don’t pick you up in their car (you both take the train), usually, you both walked around the city all day so you’re not as formal as you would’ve liked to be. I think for some guys if he doesn’t pay there’s no real way to know its a date.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Or believe that all those men were white knighting – WTF – AskMen is basically a site for douchebags!”

    From your lips, err fingers to God’s ears. 😉

    I put AskMen right up there with the Good Mangina Project. Sorry Obsidian, but in my opinion they have a long way to go before they make up for Hugo.

    • I put AskMen right up there with the Good Mangina Project.

      In quality perhaps, but they’re polar opposites in terms of audience.

  • Tom

    The most interesting “facts”
    “At what point does the number of former sex partners start to bother you?”

    If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%

    I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%
    ______________

    So 41% of men think that 20 partners is ok for women to have had sex with………..
    I am not alone……lol

  • Ted D

    Tom – “So 41% of men think that 20 partners is ok for women to have had sex with………..
    I am not alone……lol”

    I don’t think anyone here has said you were alone. I would wager though that the vast majority of men that are in that 41% are young, and they’ve pretty much accepted the fact that they are NOT going to find a low N woman to marry. Despite your apparent happiness at finding your “peeps” there, I still don’t see it as a positive outcome.

    Which is precisely one of my biggest complaints: that by the time my boys are old enough to marry, there won’t be many low N women to choose from. They will have to settle for one closer to a reformed carousel rider or simply not marry at all. I personally don’t like either of those outcomes, but unless they convert to some strict version of Christianity or other religion, they just aren’t going to find anything close to chaste, and maybe not even much in terms of sexually selective women.

  • Escoffier

    Abbot, he was right on cue!

  • Wudang

    “In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.

    The statistics disprove the “gold digger” generalization.”

    It does no such thing. As long as 50% of women believe the man should pay everything that is more than enough women to go on frivolous dates. The numbers only “proves” something about one HALF of the women. Furthermore, it is pretty obvious that the attitudes to paying will vary according to SMV so that more attractive women more often believe the man should pay everything. These women go on way more dates than the women who believe both should pay. Consequently men will be far more likely to go on dates with women who have the attitude that men should pay everything. Also, critically important is that the women who go on dates that aren`t all that serious in large part to be taken out will of course accept more offers for dates so mens experience will be highly impacted by this so that the percentage of frivolous dates are higher than the percentage of women who frivolously date.

  • FeralEmployee

    Tom, 57:

    This logic seems flawed, the question is:

    At what point does the number of former sex partners start to bother you?

    Therefore, the correct percentage is:
    100 – (10+43+21) = 26%

    Not significantly lower, but still reduced to about a quarter.

  • John G

    I forget what it’s called, confirmation bias or whatever, but we all do it. So I find it amusing that folks are enjoying a laff at others. So when one survey sez (channeling Richard Dawson) that a lot of women are ‘X’ and then all the ladies announce NAWALT. Another survey comes out and announces that a lot of women are not ‘X’ and moreover a lot of guys are ‘Y’, all of the men announce that it’s a bad survey. Bottom line we all have confirmation bias even if we aren’t willing to admit it to ourselves. I certainly do ( I got a TON of it), it’s why I do not even bother with these (I opened the article to read the comments, the blog post was TLDR). So to everyone, please keep on keeping on.

  • FeralEmployee

    Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.

    As witnessed, most men disagree, I join them. The statement was never that all women are gold diggers, but that a significant portion of them are relative to some generations ago (i.e. their share is growing). I may still be wrong about this, but the numbers are not encouraging.

  • Ramble

    Susan @ 56

    So, basically, you think that the survey is interesting, but not valid. Right? Or, that it is not that helpful because of how things are worded. Right?

    As far as I can tell, your reaction to this survey is not significantly different than how some of the guys are reacting to it.

    However, the guys will keep looking for information that supports the idea that girls are a lot sluttier than they used to be and you will keep looking for professional surveys.

    Yes, your bias is the better one, but your reaction is not much different.

    As to why few are responding, the previous thread is sucking all the air out.

  • Wudang

    “Meanwhile, before I put my analysis up with the wacky female responses, Obsidian and others here were triumphant in their claims that the survey proves women are looking for players rather than husbands. Now the silence is deafening.”

    When I found several studies showing more attractive women having higher sociosexuality than less attractive women and that they started having sex earlier and with more partners, directly contradicting what is said here constantly about higher SMV women not wanting casual, the silence was defining. No one responded to it at all.

    • When I found several studies showing more attractive women having higher sociosexuality than less attractive women and that they started having sex earlier and with more partners, directly contradicting what is said here constantly about higher SMV women not wanting casual, the silence was defining. No one responded to it at all.

      Fear not, I have saved all those links for my post on sociosexual orientation. Your timing was unfortunate in the sense that I was going on vacation right then, and that is a very time consuming post to write.

  • Ted D

    “As witnessed, most men disagree, I join them. The statement was never that all women are gold diggers, but that a significant portion of them are relative to some generations ago (i.e. their share is growing). I may still be wrong about this, but the numbers are not encouraging.”

    Doesn’t the number of women willing to stay in a relationship with a man she DOES NOT intend to marry play into the “gold digger” mentality? I mean, so she KNOWS she doesn’t want to marry him, but she is OK with staying with him for awhile letting him spend time and money on her, for what? In exchange for access to her vagina?

    Doesn’t anyone else see this as part of the “gold digger” mentality? I certainly do!

  • FeralEmployee

    On the subject of confirmation bias. I’m not sure why people are discrediting the men here of indicating that the study is flawed. If I were to be an MRA, and a neurotic one trying to cherry pick studies, I’d be somewhat pleased by this study.

    This in itself makes a lousy argument for the validity, but we are talking about AskMen, a site more suitable for players than betas. I feel like choir boys filled out the forms here.

  • Abbot

    Lets see, this was written at about 6am per comment 39 above:

    “Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric”

    and whadeeya know, a mere four hours later that very spew appears per comment 57 above:

    “I am not alone……lol”

    So predictable. So pathetic
    .

  • FeralEmployee

    Ted D, 66

    I’m in the choir you are preaching to, Ted.

  • Ted D

    FeralEmployee – “This in itself makes a lousy argument for the validity, but we are talking about AskMen, a site more suitable for players than betas. ”

    I don’t know for sure about this. Dr. Love may be a PUA type guy, but I’ve seen SO much blue pill crap on AskMen that I truly have stopped reading there. I will say that at least they seem to mix it up a little, but look through the archive for ‘sex and dating’ articles and you’ll see tons of blue pill claptrap to waste your time on.

    I’m honestly not sure what AskMen is good for, unless you are into fitness or expensive watches.

  • Tom

    Ted not sure the men were young. older men especially if they are divorced see things a little differently. younger men have ego`s less life experience and probably more recent experience with slutty behavior.

  • Abbot

    “he was right on cue!”

    Uncanny indeed.

    “they’ve pretty much accepted the fact that they are NOT going to find a low N woman to marry.”

    Despite that NOT being what he wants at all and that does not bode well for him or her. Men who drag their asses into UNIVERSALLY UNNATURAL “bonds” with promiscuous women are essentially entering into wincing mechanical marriages. Its is absolutely in a woman’s best interest to avoid such a scenario.

    They will have to settle for one closer to a reformed carousel rider

    A very very big S E T T L E

    “unless they convert to some strict version of Christianity or other religion, they just aren’t going to find anything close to chaste, and maybe not even much in terms of sexually selective women.”

    Or merely travel to where the super majority of Earth’s gracious women dwell aka sticking a knife in the back of the hookup cesspool and the occasional anti-cock-count-consideration advocate who strategically shows up here…

    .

  • FeralEmployee

    Ted D, 70

    I suppose that explains the choirboy results. I’ve read AskMangina’s some period before I discovered HUS, but hadn’t visited if after the red pill was swallowed. Luckily the red pill went down somewhat less troublesome in comparison to other men.

    Observant behavior as an INTJ truly is a bliss.

  • FeralEmployee

    In quality perhaps, but they’re polar opposites in terms of audience.

    Why the certainty? Because of the odd article with the 99 most … women? A glance at the website will not grant you immediate insight.

  • Abbot

    “recent experience with slutty behavior”

    That very experience is precisely what moves them away from sluts when they are done with them or witnessing them all gooshy with cockfulls of expression embracing and exploring. You see how nicely it works out for everyone?

  • Tom

    “It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man”

    Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior although…………………………………………………………………………………. even those men tend to switch to non sluts when seeking a life partner
    ____________
    Go on thinking that..You are wrong. Almost half of men are not “bothered” by a number as large as 20.. Or do you know better than a survey of 50,000 men?…Talk about pathetic, your incorrect caveman theory has been shot down.

  • Tom

    feral

    If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%

    I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%

    21 % think 20 is ok…..21 % dont care what the number is, so a number of 20 is ok with them too…20 + 21= 41%

  • FeralEmployee

    Tom, 78

    At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?

    Note that the cumulative sum of all percentages is 100%. There is no way that 21% can be included in your 41% statistic: they are already bothered.

  • Tom

    feral
    No they are not
    21% think it is ok to have no more than 20
    20% could care less what her number is, so 20 is ok with them too.

  • Abbot

    “men are not “bothered”

    AKA men self-convince or ………..S E T T L E………….due to lack of supremely appropriate readily available choices. So promiscuous lades: do you like being settled for? Is that a solid basis for marriage? hmmmm?

    A person having a tooth pulled is gassed into an alter-reality state in order to not be “bothered” by the procedure. Extend the self-duping gas out a few years and your slut gets the ring and maybe a house. Ohhh, but the slowing growing regret and gnawing pain…..

  • Tom

    100%-43% that 10 partners bother-
    57% -10% cant handle even one other partner
    47% – 6% bother by 100 or more

    Whats left..Humm 41% ?

  • Abbot

    “There is no way that 21% can be included in your 41% statistic: they are already bothered.”

    Oh, just give the “advocate” the extra suckers, er men. The sluts are already desperate enough given their severely diminished options and they need to grab onto anything to feel better

  • Tom

    Abbott

    enough of your opinion. I will rely on the survey that disputes your opinion

    due to lack of supremely appropriate readily available choices.
    In YOUR opinion Abbott, in YOUR opinion. Almost half of all men disagree with you.

  • Abbot

    “Whats left..Humm 41% ?”

    hmmmm hmmmmm na na nuh na na

    How about 94% huh? Would that make your day knowing that the female lurkers here can go home now knowing that a bunch of sacks will be there for them with catchers mitts on as they hop off the last easy to get slimy cocks? All embraced in cozy blankets of expression; all the more ready to be wives incomparable to even their loser grandmothers? All with better vaginas that the poor guy’s kids are going to slide from?

    Sheeeesh. Give it a break already. Constantly filling the very pot holed road does not make for an attractive new road. No matter what.

  • Tom

    Oh, just give the “advocate” the extra suckers, er men\

    Actually the number is 47% because 6% of men dont care if women have a number of 100.
    Whos the sucker?….lmao
    You see, like I have been saying all along. A LOT of men judge a woman on the total package, not just a sexual number. Almost half of men could care less if a woman has a number @ 20.

    If that doesnt work for you, fine, no sweat of my ass, but your insults are really getting old.

  • Abbot

    “I will rely on the survey ”

    Sadly, sluts know the reality, not surveys and especially none they can rely on including and especially this one. If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.

  • Tom

    knowing that a bunch of sacks will be there for them with catchers mitts on as they hop off the last easy to get slimy cocks

    Oh I see NOW cocks are slimey?..Is that your impression mr cave man? sex is dirty, and it tarnishes a woman who has it… talk about 19th centery thinking.

  • Tom

    If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.

    __________________
    Half of men appearently have no, so called,” angst” for mistakenly referred to…lol

    Later my friend, see your primitive thinking ass in another week or so.

  • Tom

    If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.

    __________________
    Half of men appearently have no, so called,” angst”you mistakenly referred to…lol

    Later my friend, see your primitive thinking ass in another week or so.

  • FeralEmployee

    Tom, 80

    If you still include 20, then it’s
    100 – (10+43) = 47%

    You’ve lost the first two groups, not the rest. Though you are flirting with the boundary here. It’s safer to work with thresholds instead of specific numbers. You see, you forgot the additional 6% of the N=100 group.

  • Abbot

    “men could care less if a woman has a number @ 20”

    All else being close enough to equal, if it came down to the non slut, all men would take that choice but cannot when trapped in a geographic area where that choice has been diminished by family breakdown, overall bad parenting and cheap easy accessible cock joy riding.

    ++++But heck, if you get the desired result of the slut-to-marriage program, does it really matter how or why it was accomplished??????????

  • Abbot

    “men appearently have no, so called,” angst””

    No, its the women who do. Men need not be concerned at all as they know they can always bail

  • Abbot

    Yep, this was written just six hours ago:

    “Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric”

    Humor anyone?

    Interestingly, women are told they have choices and then complain that those choices are not really choices because they are offered in a narrow band. They are right. The same applies to men. If a man “chooses” to marry a slut, is he making that choice as a naive member of a captive audience given the narrow range presented to him that does not include all actual choices that would best suit his nature?

  • Ted D

    Tom – “Ted not sure the men were young. older men especially if they are divorced see things a little differently. younger men have ego`s less life experience and probably more recent experience with slutty behavior.”

    OK how about this. Older and younger men realize they have no choice. I’d love to have a partner with a lower count, but to be honest, I’m pretty thrilled I found a woman with a N<10 at my age. I would MUCH prefer her N had been 3 or maybe 4 tops, but there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, so I sucked it up and moved on.

    And from what I can tell of the young men around my boys age, (from 13 to 17 years old) they are pretty much programmed to not even question a woman's N. Because after all, even asking is judgmental, and Lord forbid we make a woman feel bad for exercising her female power.

    How many of the men answering this survey do you think feel the same way? 10%? 20%? Whatever it doesn't matter, my point still stands. Just because more men are OK with ending up with a former slut DOES NOT make it morally OK. All it shows is the continuing decline of our morality in the West.

    But I hope you enjoy being right about it. Someone should be happy that we are going to hell in a hand basket, and it sure as hell isn't me.

  • FeralEmployee

    Ted D, 96

    But I hope you enjoy being right about it. Someone should be happy that we are going to hell in a hand basket, and it sure as hell isn’t me.

    This sentiment is shared. The only reason I’m not too worried is thanks to my choice of education and limited social network. The benefit of not asking help often is that you don’t have to lend much yourself. While Western civilization drowns, I will be moving away.

    On another note, it is interesting that the numbers do seem to confirm SW’s statement that for every male slut, there is a female one. There is however, some interesting dynamic going on at the lower N levels.

  • Ted D

    FeralEmployee – “There is however, some interesting dynamic going on at the lower N levels.”

    Sure, that as much as it may be denied here, there are plenty of low N women that take a turn or two at an alpha/ONS/Cad/Jerk and then do their best to simply forget about the whole thing after it crashes and burns. I’m positive that Susan’s 20% holds up for both men and women IF you are simply looking at who are the career sluts. However, what isn’t properly counted is, how many amateur sluts are there in the world? And by that I mean, how many women (and men to be fair) that for all the world look to be sexually selective and relatively chaste, have in fact indulged in the lowest forms of sexual release? We’ll probably never know, because my guess is most women (and perhaps some men) often lie about it, or like I said, simply “forget” the entire thing happened.

    I could care less about the career sluts in the world. I wouldn’t even consider them as a friend in most cases, let alone a mate. But, I’d certainly like to know who took only a turn or two on the casual carousel, and specifically I’d like to know exactly how that turned out for her, before I consider her mate potential.

    • However, what isn’t properly counted is, how many amateur sluts are there in the world? And by that I mean, how many women (and men to be fair) that for all the world look to be sexually selective and relatively chaste, have in fact indulged in the lowest forms of sexual release? We’ll probably never know, because my guess is most women (and perhaps some men) often lie about it, or like I said, simply “forget” the entire thing happened.

      I think this is accurate. I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut. Nor do I believe she necessarily had the ONS with the most dominant guy. Again, the numbers just aren’t there. The only way to refute my conclusion is to say the data is worthless. That’s fine if you can produce better data.

  • Abbot

    “men realize they have no choice”

    and the Advocate obviously likes it that way

    “I sucked it up ”

    A far cry from not being “bothered”

    “they are pretty much programmed to not even question a woman’s N”

    Anything not natural has to be programmed. But WHY everything else is fair to question EXCEPT the N? That has NEVER been clearly explained.

    “Just because more men are OK with ending up with a former slut DOES NOT make it morally OK. ”

    Or especially UNIVERSALLY natural, because it is NOT.
    It is an awful feeling that sinks way down. How long before the numbing [er…not “bothered”] wears off? How is it good in any way that a woman has in her clutches a man who deep down rather dedicate himself to the worthy demure loverly doe-eyed woman his grandfather had the extreme supreme benefit of marrying?

  • Abbot

    “I’d like to know exactly how that turned out for her, before I consider her mate potential”

    That is the whole angst thing among WOMEN right now. They dont want men to even CONSIDER that when evaluation the package. They really really do not. There is no denying their angst over this.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Regarding question #4, I’m not even sure if it’s about possible wife material, contrary to Tom’s triumphant assertions of wanting low-N women being evidence of “caveman thinking” when in fact most Red Pill thinking is “caveman.”

    As for his quip about someone having 19th century thinking? Guess what — numerology is bullcrap.

  • Abbot

    “even asking is judgmental…How many of the men answering this survey do you think feel the same way?”

    Um, at least 47%? The rest are independent thinkers immune to the propaganda and rhetoric …

    Ok, so much for this so-called “survey” question.

  • Abbot

    “wanting low-N women being evidence of “caveman thinking”

    How does caveman action and living [vs cave-in] in any way whatsoever negatively affect women?

    THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED MANY TIMES BUT NEVER ANSWERED. Because, quite frankly, the Advocate, feminists and sluts fear looking like grovelers to men and are protecting their pride and egos. Thus, they would rather fling tired old ineffective shame bombs like insecure, caveman, archaic, weak blah blah blah. How is that working out?

    Well, since they refuse to answer, here is how it affects women: It creates a HUGE MAN SHORTAGE and no woman likes to admit there are not enough men to go around as it diminishes her power and control over men. Oh, this shit is soooo transparent.

  • Just a thought

    At the risk of being a killjoy here, isn’t it pretty difficult to draw any substantial conclusions from the data? On one hand, AskMen is a male self-improvement site. On the other hand, Pop Sugar is a site for “women?” to follow celebrity couple break ups. Comparing the male/ female surveys is like comparing apples to oranges. It’s like comparing the readers of people magazine to the readers of the economist. It’s kind of hard to learn anything from that.

    • @Just a thought

      I think the sites are actually pretty comparable in the sense that both are pretty lowbrow. AskMen isn’t exactly The Art of Manliness, in fact they’ve trashed that blog that really is about personal development.

      I agree that no conclusions should be drawn from this data. It’s merely a rather interesting glimpse at what some people are thinking, and 50K respondents are not easily dismissed, especially as the male responses are quite consistent across countries.

  • Abbot

    “It’s kind of hard to learn anything from that.”

    Of course. But any data that remotely suggests that men see sluts as wife material like they see any other woman must have an odor because it immediately attracts those who are desperate to prove that very point.

  • Ted D

    Susan – ” I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut.”

    Nor do I. But that doesn’t mean I am unconcerned with any previous rides on the carousel she took, even if it was one. In fact, I would say that at least with the hardcore sluts you know where you stand. And I’d certainly like to know how that ONS ended, and how she felt about it afterwards. And it is these women that are more likely to hide their few dalliances, not the career sluts.

    • Nor do I. But that doesn’t mean I am unconcerned with any previous rides on the carousel she took, even if it was one. In fact, I would say that at least with the hardcore sluts you know where you stand. And I’d certainly like to know how that ONS ended, and how she felt about it afterwards. And it is these women that are more likely to hide their few dalliances, not the career sluts.

      That’s totally fair. I can only say from a female POV that my own casual experiences did not stay with me or affect me in the least, as far as I can tell. (Excepting my ONS with my husband, obvs.)

  • Just1X

    “4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?”

    Apologies if I’m missing something by not visiting that site (not interested in either site), BUT there seems to be a gaping hole in the logic being used to parse the results of no.4 from what I see here (Tom in particular is jumping the gun)

    How big an N would worry you for:
    a) ONS on a business trip in another country?
    b) STR whilst away from home for a few months?
    c) P&D from the local bar whilst drunk with mates?
    d) STR?
    e) LTR?
    f) marriage?

    This is without getting into relative SMV / MMV. Money etc

    So what results are we being given? ‘cos I’d have a different attitude dependant on what the deal on offer was and where it was…

    Marriage with a woman with an high N – NO, not even in my blue pill daze
    ONS with a woman with a high N – Yeah (possibly) just protect yourself.

    This is one of the reasons that these surveys are next to worthless. Imprecise questions, random situation of responders (sober / drunk / alone / friends / party / dry patch / in relationship).

  • Just1X

    sorry about the keyboard bounce on the paste. it’s a high N keyboard

    • sorry about the keyboard bounce on the paste. it’s a high N keyboard

      LOL

  • Abbot

    “Tom in particular is jumping the gun”

    Predicted at 6am, just 4 hours before he gun was jumped.

    “Marriage with a woman with an high N – NO, not even in my blue pill daze
    ONS with a woman with a high N – Yeah (possibly) just protect yourself.”

    That is the universal male attitude, practice and take on it all. Men are good with that. Women are good with that. Eventually, with varying degrees of effort, nearly all get what they want or close enough to what they wanted. Why a few folks get all bent out of shape over it has never been explained, but alas, here we are.

  • Infantry

    I’m firmly in the skeptic camp on this one. Yes, I’ve probably got confirmation bias, but the questions and the answers ‘feel’ off for the men’s survey.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s one thing to know your girl is a slut when you have no emotional investment, it’s quite another when you are actually, ya know, starting to get attached.

    Step 1. I don’t care, I am getting to know this girl.
    Step 2. Awwww shit, slut filter. I don’t want to date a slut.
    Step 3. She’s proven herself, got past the filter. I don’t like that’s she sucked off 100 guys, but she’s good enough that I’ll take her.

  • Abbot

    “she’s good enough that I’ll take her”

    Is this settling good for women? Good for anyone? The most sad part is her behavior set up bonding resistance from men but as women say these days “you cant have it all” so, oh well. Women will learn and they will adjust their behavior accordingly. NO MATTER WHAT, slut behavior will affect your future and hint – it brings NOTHING positive to a relationship and the best a girl can hope for is a neutral attitude from the guy, but he is just suppressing.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I think it CAN be good settling. But it makes the whole effort a lot harder, and for what? A few romps in the hay when you were younger?

    Not worth the risk.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I know I would answer such a survey in a way that reflected my real attitudes, because I would want my POV to be counted, and influence the total.”

    I lie on political surveys all the time. Last organization to call me thinks I was a pro-abortion, anti-gun, evangelical Christian, anti death penalty, anti-war, pro-marijuana Santorum supporter.

    On sex surveys? Well, that one time that I grabbed her boob, that is second base, so that counts as sex… Well, that one time I blew him in the alley, that doesn’t count as sex… Etc.

    That said, I’m sure there is significant error in these, but they are not totally bunk.

    • Last organization to call me thinks I was a pro-abortion, anti-gun, evangelical Christian, anti death penalty, anti-war, pro-marijuana Santorum supporter.

      Really? I just hang up on those people. Is it fun to “put one over on them?”

  • Abbot

    “there is significant error in these”

    Not being “in the moment” upon learning that the almost eye-of-your-affection was just another unwifeable drifting cock hopper provides no sense of that very sick feeling at the time when responding to a survey question regarding being “disturbed” by such a scenario

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    In terms of lying…

    What if the question was “Do you ever feel sexual attraction to 16-17 year olds of the opposite sex?”

    Despite it being anonymous, I’m betting an overwhelming percentage of guys would answer no because they’ve been programmed their whole lives to believe that answering yes would make them disgusting human beings.

    I know in my blue pill days I would’ve lied and voted no, since it was the socially acceptable answer. And I would’ve somehow believed my own lie. Guys can have hamsters too.

  • Just a thought

    I’m going to make a couple of points here that will probably be discounted, but at least I’ll have said my piece.
    1. Women may control the sex market, but men control the marriage market. It frustrates me how men on this site rail against women as if they have no recompense against “sluts”, but guys do have powerful tolls in their box, they just do not use them.
    a. Tool #1: Don’t marry sluts. Instead of marrying the girl because she’s attractive even though she slept with over 30 guys, don’t marry her. If guys decided not to marry girls with high sex numbers, in large droves, you would see more women abstaining from sex and more women becoming choosier about those ONS, because most women do want to get married. If you want more chaste women, don’t marry sluts.
    b. Tool# 2 Don’t reward slutty, gold-digging behavior. I’m a 19 year old, girl in college and I constantly see the really attractive girls get away with , “using guys, then dumping them when I get them” ( as one roommate told me) and they still get perks, like free drinks in bars, and positive attention from guys. Then guys will constantly complain that girls use them. But it’s hard for me to feel any sympathy when guys create this situation. Out of all the girls on campus, 60% of men go after the top 10% of girls. Those girls will be more likely to use you, reject you and treat you badly because they can and because their is often nothing that differentiates you from all the guys who want to date them. As a woman, I cannot change the before of the top 10 percent of women. It’s not my fault that they expect drinks from a man in a bar, or that the really attractive girl you dated dumped you because she thought she could do better. It is your fault because you are making bad dating choices.
    3. Religion and sex. Many men bemoan the fact that there are few virgins to marry nowadays. But I challenge men to try to imagine what it is like to be a woman. I am 19, I am a virgin, but I don’t plan to what till even 25 to have sex. Why? Because sex is awesome, from my personal explorations, I’ve found that I enjoy it and I do have a sex drive. Women in the 1930s and 40s got married at 18 and 19. Today, obviously, most people do not do that. As a woman, am I supposed to wait until my “mystery guy on a white horse comes riding over the rainbow at some undisclosed time in the future comes to marry me” and then have sex? No. From 16-24, we girls are horny, we like sex and we want to have it. There is no reason to delay having sex, unless religion comes into play. In fact, religion is partly behind the reason why I’m a virgin right now. Religion entails sacrifice and self-control. It’s no surprise that being religious causes a girl to suppress her baser sex urges…. but not for long and definitively not forever.
    Finally, I have to point out the last reality of this situation. As men argue, women’s sexual beauty peaks around 16-29. But women are at their most stupid in that time-period. As a 19 year old, I will willingly say I am stupid and will probably act more intelligently when I am 30. In their youth, women, like men, do not want to settle down, we prize fun, novelty and amusement…. which is why many 24 year olds ride the “Cock Carousel”. This is why women will pick the tall, brooding and mysterious stranger over the bland nice guy every time.It takes a very wise woman to reason out that the nice guys is the better bet. But at 20, honestly women think with their pussy and not with their brains. This is not something society can easily change.
    Well, I’ve said everything I want to. If you want go buy a drink for that beautiful girl. But remember, that girl is probably not a prostitute. $20 dollar wine won’t win you her affection or convince her to have sex with you. For that, you better excite her in a way most men approaching her haven’t, and if you are a nice guy, seek a girl who think with her brain and not her pussy. These are fundamental truths.

    • @Just a thought

      Forgive my delay in welcoming you, I’m on family vacation. Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

      Out of all the girls on campus, 60% of men go after the top 10% of girls.

      I’m curious to see if other women perceive this too. I suspect that many men don’t “go after” anyone.

  • Ian

    To rephrase the N results, 20% of men responded that 20N “begins to bother”, 20% had no number which “began to bother”. 60% “began to bother” at or below 10N. This feels about right. In my circles, there’s not much loud slut shaming, overt misogynist statements are a comedic novelty, and most men don’t see themselves as starkly separate from women. Blame the pthalates.

    The marriage question regarded the “institute of marriage”, the idea, its preservation, faith in, upholding. A solipsistic, marriage-as-pony question – “do you want to be married and have a happy marriage?” – may have returned a different answer. Again, probably a true reporting. Very few people are circling wagons around old patria and its dear customs. “L’etat, c’est moi”.

    My issue with surveys personally is, because people are group-joiners, there can be a justifying quality in the figures. The oldest excuse is “but everybody else is doing it…”, and a question I used to ask people – you’re in a group of 100 people, everybody else sees a green wall, but you see a yellow one. There’s only one correct answer; what color is the wall, really?

    Surveys are projects that care what other people think, is the plus and the minus.

  • Just a thought

    Btw, I’m sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I’m tired. It’s late at night.

  • Emily

    This is off-topic, but I’m so jealous of people who can access HUS at work.

    My company’s webblocker won’t let me look at it because it’s classified as “Adult/Explicit”. 🙁

  • Johnycomelately

    I did one of these types of surveys when I was 16 at school (for the Victorian Health Department) when the AIDS crisis was prevalent and studies on sexual behaviour was being conducted.

    I lied by a factor of 5 on almost every question, despite the anonymity the fear of one of my peers finding out about my lack of experience was enough to make me lie. Yeh, so I take these surveys with a grain of salt.

  • Ian

    @Just a Thought

    3. Religion and sex. Many men bemoan the fact that there are few virgins to marry nowadays. But I challenge men to try to imagine what it is like to be a woman. I am 19, I am a virgin, but I don’t plan to what till even 25 to have sex. Why? Because sex is awesome, from my personal explorations, I’ve found that I enjoy it and I do have a sex drive. Women in the 1930s and 40s got married at 18 and 19…

    I’m going to try, and fail, to phrase this in a way that doesn’t make me sound like a Lifetime Channel villain. I’ll say that I don’t bemoan that there are young women with an exploratory mindset, I’ve had my own explorations with them. Also, I don’t sort women into the low-investment pile out of punishment or personal spite. It’s more a simple decrease of investment as the N goes up the number line. 

    Looking through my window, for the same woman, gut-level response:

    With zero-N, she’d be approached for marriage only, patient exploration, not going to be her first unless there are rings involved. One or two N, laidback, no need for patience anymore, but not avoiding the altar either. Three to four, staying in the present, not particularly considering marriage; might have mixed feelings at the altar, if accident or fate brought me there. Five to six N, hookups, semi-regrettable lapses in concentration, no longterm relationship. Higher, avoided, hopefully with some decorum.

    For me, the Madonna/Whore dichotomy doesn’t ring as true as a three-folder Wife/Concubine(girlfriend)/Prostitute(hookup) cabinet, if you take the sting off of the words and keep in mind that men can really enjoy the company of any of the three. Your view, I think, is a good representation of what a woman wants, and would use power to bring about. In the past, and where men had the upper hand, they’ve tended to express their view in favor of restrictive low-N marriages, not only for their own brides, but also for their sisters and daughters.

    As per the survey, I’m an outlier. That said, I exist, and I’m not lying. An old-timer from the country was asked about marriage, said all he looked for in college was a pretty virgin to marry. Got one, got a job, and that was that. Seemed about right.

  • Just1X

    @Just a thought
    you appear to be owning your shit – cool stuff at whatever age and either sex.

    I’ve heard it expressed (somewhere, sometime) that humans don’t truly mentally mature until their late twenties. When you add in the hormone haze of youth…there’s a lot of poor thinking around, but you knew that.

    Best of luck

  • Sai

    #118 -Just a thought
    Haha, you think kind of like me. 🙂 That’s not an insult.
    (I think I see things differently because I am a shy geeky girl who’s never kissed any of the hoods who populate my area. Sometimes I consider moving to Germany or Switzerland.)

    #58 -Ted D
    Tell your sons to consider visiting Latin America, Southeast Asia or Eastern Europe. I’ve met some good, sweet non-trampy girls from those places and there are supposed to be tons more.

    • @Sal

      And welcome to you too! Please join in again!

  • chris

    @Susan

    But why would they? Why lie? There’s no one to give them brownie points. Why would men in their 20s taking a survey online be anything but truthful?

    The adage to look at their actions and not their words can still apply when the person is giving what they believe to be an honest/non-lying answer. Why? Self-delusion is one answer. Inexperience is another.

    For instance, take someone giving an answer about how they would react in a situation where they were being mugged, (and they’ve never been mugged before). They may be able to rationally think through how the mugger would act and how they may try to catch the mugger off guard and kick him in the balls or something and be a hero but the fact is until you’ve been in that situation first-hand you won’t have any idea what you would or could do. Why? Because in that situation you have a whole bunch of instincts and emotions and hormones kicking into gear and affecting your perception and judgment that most people won’t add into their calculations of what they would do when they are rationally considering their response to a mugging in a place of comfort and safety.

    Another example. I remember watching or reading an interview about Steven Pinker about evolutionary psychology and why he got into it. In this interview he regaled a story about how we may rationally agree with the cultural ideals of the day in an abstract sense yet when those ideals are put to the test before us our evolved instincts can take over and make us behave in the opposite to them. Namely he was recounting a story of how in his college days he was all into feminism and would often say to his feminist girlfriend, “Oh yeah, I don’t own your body! That’s so sexist!” Yet whenever his girlfriend flirted with other guys or what not, he would get extremely jealous and his behaviour/emotions told a completely different story to what he had rationally stated before, when the situation that put those statements to the test came before him.

    A final example would be Hugo Schywzer. I remember reading an article about how he was once a pacifist and he could never imagine himself harming another person. Yet when he had his first child he changed his opinion on pacifism to one where he could see himself harming/killing those who would try to hurt/kill his infant daughter. That again is an example of people stating what is culturally appropriate at the time, without lying, yet when the actual situation presents itself, their emotions/instincts/hormones kicking and them then taking what would be the opposite stance.

    Hence why you should always look at a persons actions and not their words, even when the person believes they aren’t lying. Most people just don’t don’t know they they will actually respond until that situation comes before them and even then they may still delude themselves as to their true feelings/thought/motivations so that they can assuage their ego/belief system.

  • chris

    “Oh yeah, I don’t own your body! That’s so sexist!” Yet whenever his girlfriend flirted with other guys or what not, he would get extremely jealous and his behaviour/emotions told a completely different story to what he had rationally stated before, when the situation that put those statements to the test came before him.”

    I should probably indicate that he said he got jealous in a sexually possessive nature and so his evolved instincts/emotions were telling him that he did want to “own her body” even though he had consciously/rationally stated otherwise.

  • FeralEmployee

    Emily, 121

    Set up an SSH connection with an external server (e.g. server at home) and use that to browse sites you can’t do otherwise.

  • Ted D

    Just a thought – “This is not something society can easily change.”

    I never implied it would be easy, but since we came from a much more conservative society, it is obviously doable.

    Emily – “This is off-topic, but I’m so jealous of people who can access HUS at work.”

    There are SO many ways around that…
    • Get a smart phone and access it from there
    • Setup a PC at home that listens to incoming remote connections on an unusual port and connect from your work PC to your home PC and then access from home.
    • Get an iPad or other tablet (kinda like the first option, but with a much better screen)

    Truth is, I spend most of my days sitting in front of my computer, so I pull HUS up and leave it in the background. This is why I tend to post in spurts (LOL couldn’t resist the pun…) because I will pull the page up, refresh, post, and then get back to work. Lately I’ve been working on some client stuff, so I’ve not been able to post as much. But now I’m back at my office, and things should be back to normal, for a few more days. Then I’m off to Vegas for a week, and I won’t be posting much if at all from there. I might not be in any condition to even power up a PC…

    Sai – “Tell your sons to consider visiting Latin America, Southeast Asia or Eastern Europe. I’ve met some good, sweet non-trampy girls from those places and there are supposed to be tons more.”

    I know. But I find it regrettable that I even have to consider telling them this, when we live in a country full of young women.

    Chris – “I should probably indicate that he said he got jealous in a sexually possessive nature and so his evolved instincts/emotions were telling him that he did want to “own her body” even though he had consciously/rationally stated otherwise.”

    Easy way to solve this one. I’ve indicated to my SO that I do indeed consider her sexuality MINE for all intent and purpose now that we are committed, and in turn mine belongs to her. If one of us does something that makes the other uncomfortable, we are supposed to bring it up, calmly, and discuss it to a resolution. In fact, from time to time when we are goofing around I’ll give her a light swat to the ass, and she will say “don’t touch my ass!” while grinning at me. In every single case my answer is: “Sorry baby, that ass is mine now”, she giggles and rolls her eyes and we move on. But, she doesn’t argue, debate, or even bristle at the comment, because she knows that in truth that is EXACTLY how I feel about it. She will always be her own person, but when she committed to me, she agreed to give me that part of her being. She is now the steward for me when it comes to her sexuality. Which to me is the double blow of cheating. Not only does it break trust, but in my mind, it is stealing. Because her sexuality doesn’t belong to her to give to some other guy. She already gave it to me.

    • I often find that I can’t access my own blog when I’m on wifi away from home, like at the car dealership, for example. 🙁 I feel sort of ashamed when I’m told HUS is inappropriate.

  • Abbot

    “If guys decided not to marry girls with high sex numbers, in large droves, you would see more women abstaining from sex ”

    If men as a group broadcast that intent you would think then its a good thing. After all, no harm done. But if women abstain from sex outside of marriage that implies they would be marrying younger. If they are marrying younger then the so-called “career” thing becomes less of a focus and that implies dependency on men increases. It is for this exact reason that such a broadcast from men would be met with fiery rage from feminists and probably from many women overall. The sick irony is that the recently discovered ease of fucking men enables women to be independent from men and if certain men do not participate in the fuck fest it must be because they want to use the cock control tower to manipulate female life choices and behaviors

  • Zach
    • @Zach

      Great story there about the Olympic athletes.

      Many on-the-prowl athletes maintain that they’re driven by a simple human need: intimacy, if only for a moment or three. For most Olympians, the ramp-up to the Games is lonely. Not unlike movie stars on a far-flung movie shoot, the Olympics present the perfect opportunity to find a partner who understands where they’re coming from. “Think about how hard it is to meet someone,” Azevedo says. “Now take an Olympian who trains from 6 a.m. until 5 p.m. every day. When the hell are you supposed to meet someone? Now the pressure is done, you’re meeting like-minded people … and boom.”

      This doesn’t surprise me. Imagine being home-schooled or the equivalent your entire life into your 20s. This is one of my favorite quotes by an Olympic athlete, Alberto Tomba:

      “I used to have a wild time with three women until 5 a.m., but I am getting older. In the Olympic Village here, I will live it up with five women until 3 a.m.”

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Re: paying for dates, while I agree with you that most women I know aren’t going for a free meal/drinks, there’s another aspect to it that you haven’t mentioned. While many women may say on a survey they’d be willing to split, in my experience, and with almost everyone I know, saying and doing are two very different things.

    As every guy is aware, there are two levels of offering to split. One is actually offering to split, where the girl has cash/card out on the table as/before the bill comes down. That’s a real offer. The fake offer, which is actually more common, is “do you want to split this” without any move to bring out cash/card, or maybe a fake rummaging around in the purse for 30 seconds until you decline her offer. So there’s that to begin with.

    Secondly, as a guy, splitting/paying have asymmetric outcomes. If you pay, the upside is everything goes smoothly. The downside is that you’re out $50 or something like that. To most of my friends, that’s not a huge downside. However, if you take her up on splitting, the upside is that you save $50. The potential downside though is that she gets offended, and you put subsequent dates/hus in serious jeopardy. That’s a lot bigger downside than being out $50. I, and almost every guy I know, has gotten burned by taking a girl up on an offer to pay only for her to be offended and upset that you didn’t turn her down. Hell, I had a girl, who in a conversation weeks before we ever went on a date talked about how she was totally fine going dutch on a date. Date one, I paid for, and we had a great time. She was all over me at my apartment after. Date two, I actually took her up on her offer to split. She was so pissed off at that that we stopped dating soon after. Most guys I know have had a similar experience. We’ve been classically conditioned to pay every time (until we’re dating the girl), because the downsides and outcomes are so asymmetrical as to make it a stupid risk to not pay.

    • @Zach

      That’s a real offer. The fake offer, which is actually more common, is “do you want to split this” without any move to bring out cash/card, or maybe a fake rummaging around in the purse for 30 seconds until you decline her offer.

      Fair enough, that’s a really good point. I’m sure all the women making fake offers would insist they are sincere, and would answer that way on the survey.

      I also agree that it’s very tricky for guys. You never know whether you’re with a liberated woman, a traditionally minded woman or something in between. In addition, I’ve known guys who were put off when the woman insisted because they interpreted that as her saying there would be no second date, and she wanted to discourage those expectations.

  • Zach

    @Abbot

    “cock control tower”. Incredible. I actually laughed out loud at that one.

  • Abbot

    “the downsides and outcomes are so asymmetrical as to make it a stupid risk to not pay”

    Meanwhile the two dudes in Aruba who nailed her during her one week all-inclusive “exploration” back in March are snickering at you. Yep yep, you’re paying alright

  • Ted D

    “Meanwhile the two dudes in Aruba who nailed her during her one week all-inclusive “exploration” back in March are snickering at you. Yep yep, you’re paying alright”

    I will fully admit that this bothered me at first. But to be honest, I really don’t care at all about what any of my SO’s former partners think. And I really don’t think it was ever a large part of my discomfort about any of this, but it was a new effect I simply wasn’t prepared for, so to speak, so it hit me hard and fast.

    But when it all comes down to brass tacks, my issue with promiscuity is still very much about the exchange of even values and price discrimination. And I can understand how a young women might not grok this. And, as I mentioned above, I’m seeing a shift in the younger men in terms of their attitude towards promiscuity, and I’m not sure if it is part of the cause, or an effect OF our modern views on sexuality. To me, it seems like they are simply resigned to the fact that they aren’t going to marry a low N women. But, it is just as possible that they simply don’t see a problem with it, and fully intend to run their own N up a few notches before settling down. In that case, they not only expect a woman with a bit of mileage at the altar, but they intend to actively help them reach that number on the way.

    To me it doesn’t matter either way. The end result is a society that ruts instead of rising above our basic nature. We’ll see an ever increasing number of OOW and Baby-Daddys, possible increases in STDs (I haven’t looked any of this up, but I know Susan and others mention it frequently, so I am assuming they are still a very real threat for the most part) and a continual slide into darker and darker morality.

    To me, the fact that it is becoming “the norm” to be married with an N above a few is simply depressing and discouraging. I get that we can’t marry as young as we used to, and I have no false hope that young people will wait for marriage to have sex. I didn’t! However, there is a WIDE gap between young people having responsible sex within the confines of semi-committed relationships (serial monogamy if you will), and jumping from bed to bed racking up numbers and making notches. I’m realistic, and honestly wouldn’t want any of my children to suffer long years of celibacy if it isn’t something they feel is worth it. However, I also don’t want to see them casually banging any and all comers for the simple 30 minutes of pleasure they’ll get from it. To me, not only does it cheapen the true purpose of sex outside of reproduction (which is to solidify a bond between two loving people) but it just further pushes us toward total heathenism, which I fear we are well on our way towards already.

  • Escoffier

    “I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut.”

    Hmmmm. I agree to a point. A ONS is always slutty behavior. But simply for having had one, a woman is not necessarily a slut.

    I told the story a while back of my college GF. About two years before I met her, maybe longer, she had a few hook-ups (though we did not use the term in those days). One of them was straight out of the manosphere script, vaction sex on the beach with some alpha in Cancun. But she had been badly hurt, was really ashamed and stopped cold turkey. She was completely celibate for two years when she met me. We dated for three years. After we broke up she was alone for a while then she married some guy. AFAIK, they are still married.

    So, two LTRs, one of whom became her husband. But also 3 (I think it was) hook-ups. Is she a slut? At worst I guess you could call her a reformed slut. I think even that might be too harsh. I think, rather, she was an ordinary girl who was badly ill served by the culture, her parents, her friends, teachers, pretty much everyone. No one conveyed the proper moral message or even explained to her in brute tactical terms how to get what she wanted.

    So, she engaged in slutty behavior, certainly. But I don’t think she was a slut.

    I will say this. Had her attitude about it been, “Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,” I would not have dated her.

  • Zach

    @Abbot

    I honestly could care less. There are some girls I go on dates with, and others I just sleep with. If I’m going on a date with her, it’s because I want to, not because I need to. I’m not going to get all bitter because some girls have had sex in the past. If sex was all I cared about, I wouldn’t have taken her out, I’d have texted her at 1 AM.

  • Zach

    @Ted D

    I agree, I could care less what two guys in Aruba think. Honestly, my tolerance for N count is pretty high. I’d say a 10-15 wouldn’t even faze me at this point, especially if the girl was very attractive. It’s all about selectivity. Who did she sleep with, and what % of the guys who hit on her was that? If she’s smoking hot, and slept with 10 guys, that’s probably a very, very small % of the guys who hit on her, so I’m probably in very good company if we sleep together. As long as I don’t personally know any of the other guys she slept with, I don’t really care. I think it’s pretty insecure to worry about what hypothetical guys you’ve never met nor will ever meet think about you or if they’re snickering at you.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “I think, rather, she was an ordinary girl who was badly ill served by the culture, her parents, her friends, teachers, pretty much everyone. No one conveyed the proper moral message or even explained to her in brute tactical terms how to get what she wanted.

    So, she engaged in slutty behavior, certainly. But I don’t think she was a slut.

    I will say this. Had her attitude about it been, “Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,” I would not have dated her.”

    Cosign 100%. And the first paragraph I quoted from you above is EXACTLY the point I’ve been trying to make. There are plenty of non-slutty women doing slutty things for various reasons. Most of them may learn from the mistakes, but some of them don’t. And to me, it makes MUCH more sense to simply make the environment such that they don’t feel the need or desire to try BEFORE they realize they don’t like it. I suppose some people simply have to fail before they can see the downside of a thing, but to me that makes for a lot of wasted time and effort, as well as regret. Not making the mistake in the first place is the best course of action, making it and learning right away would be second best, and from there it just gets worse in terms of final outcome. As it stands now, our society practically encourages all women to “experiment” with casual sex. If what Susan says is true, and most women are NOT cut out for casual sex, then why on earth are we trying to convince them all that they are?

    Zach – “I honestly could care less. There are some girls I go on dates with, and others I just sleep with.”

    And there in lies the problem for me. I never, ever “just sleep with” a woman. If I’m interested at all, it is for the long haul. So, there is no “just sleep with” pile for me, and I must judge every woman I’m interested in as a long term mate. I’m sure you understand how quickly that eliminates the vast majority of modern women.

  • Just a thought

    Abbot, I think in general, you would be correct. But there is a third way for women, a way to allow women to have careers and still get married early. The third ways is this, to let young women get married to young men. Before you argue that this is crazy, consider this, my parents were married young, in their early twenties. I would argue that for guys to marry girls young is the best because guys who are younger than 30 have slept with lest women and are therefore less jaded. Women at a young age are more attractive. Both the young man and women would have to climb the career ladder together and live poor for a while, which would in turn create a lot of pair- bonding which would increase the chances of a lasting marriage.
    I think that a lot of the problems with marriage nowadays occurs due to the lack of pair bonding between partners which is both a result of too much sexual experience and the fact that , often people get married at 30 when their careers are all set up and they are already successful. However, if this were changed, i.e., people came into marriage when they were poor and supported each other to become successful– it would be a trial of the marriage by fire which would force the worst marriages to break apart but hold the best marriages together like glue.
    Now, Abbot, there would be more dependency on a man if you had 16/17/20 year olds marrying 30 year old men. I think this idea would also backfire in a couple of ways.
    1. The men would exercise complete control over the women due to age and success which would make the marriage less an intellectual match.
    2. Probably decimate the woman’s chance of having a career.
    3. Lead to nastier divorces because the woman would basically live off the man for most of her adult life.
    My idea can also backfire due to stupidity and youthful indiscretions, but I think my idea is possibly the only way to protect virginity and marriage in our culture. But maybe I am also ruthlessly idealistic.

  • Abbot

    Add multi-cock infertility to the myriad of reason its in a man’s best interest to not commit to sluts:

    “Incidence extrapolations for USA for Pelvic Inflammatory Disease: 1,000,000 per year, 83,333 per month, 19,230 per week, 2,739 per day, 114 per hour, 1 per minute”

    Yep, every minute only in the good ol USA

    “Women with many sexual partners are at greater risk for sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and PID.”

    Diseased products of other men are riddling through her body and while those one-nighter agents are off having babies with far less promiscuous women, you’re just a chump

  • Zach

    @Just a thought

    You’re making it way too complex. Just get married young, and DON’T HAVE KIDS until you’re older. The massive differences in womens’ earnings in every study done are between women with kids and women without kids, not married women and unmarried women. The kids are what inhibit the career, not marriage.

  • Donkey

    @Ted D
    ” To me, not only does it cheapen the true purpose of sex outside of reproduction (which is to solidify a bond between two loving people) but it just further pushes us toward total heathenism, which I fear we are well on our way towards already.” – Ted D

    If people do not value the marital act they will not value its fruit. If people do not revere life they will not have a heatlhy awe of the union.

    Children born without fathers. Infants slaughtered inside their own mothers. Human life as political tools for effeminate elites.

    If people value life they will value the life-giving act. If they value the life-giving act they will value human life.

    If they don’t value life they will treat a precious pearl as worthless refuse. If they don’t value the act they will treat the result as an unintended unfortunate accident, to be ignored, or even worse, disposed of.

  • Abbot

    “Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,”

    Really, how many sluts actually muster up such statements or reasoning? Probably nearly all of them. If one spews this out then simply ask her “did your grandmother feed on cock to fuel her personal growth and internalize such experiences for presentation to grandpa?

  • Ted D

    Donkey – I agree 100%

    And it is obvious to me that human life is not very valued in our modern society. Sure we all give it lip service, but where the rubber meets the road everyone turns a blind eye.

  • Cooper

    @just a thought
    “As men argue, women’s sexual beauty peaks around 16-29. But women are at their most stupid in that time-period. As a 19 year old, I will willingly say I am stupid and will probably act more intelligently when I am 30. In their youth, women, like men, do not want to settle down, we prize fun, novelty and amusement…. which is why many 24 year olds ride the “Cock Carousel”. This is why women will pick the tall, brooding and mysterious stranger over the bland nice guy every time.It takes a very wise woman to reason out that the nice guys is the better bet. But at 20, honestly women think with their pussy and not with their brains. This is not something society can easily change.”

    I believe many women think like this. They acknowledge the issue, and know the wise correction, but use their age to excuse their choices.
    It’s not that they aren’t wise, it just they feel like they can smarten up afterwards.
    Is it still classified as stupidity when it’s no longer unknowingly, but “thinking you beat the system”? (as in “I know what I’m doing and I think I can get away with it”)

  • Courtley

    @Ted D
    You wrote:

    “I’m actually not very surprised by the poll results. To me it pretty much just tells me that most men are still fully plugged into the Matrix. In particular when it comes to marriage, but I think most of the results are pretty indicative of men still operating under the blue pill set of rules.”

    Perhaps because, despite all the online rage and convoluted theorizing of devoted Manospherists, that dreaded “blue pill set of rules” is actually still working out okay for a solid majority of men out there. There’s a lot of guys who for whom the current SMP is NOT working out very well for, but it’s still ultimately a minority, despite Manospherists’ melodramatic pontificating about the end of western civilization and all.

    • @Courtley

      Hey, good to see you!

      Perhaps because, despite all the online rage and convoluted theorizing of devoted Manospherists, that dreaded “blue pill set of rules” is actually still working out okay for a solid majority of men out there. There’s a lot of guys who for whom the current SMP is NOT working out very well for, but it’s still ultimately a minority, despite Manospherists’ melodramatic pontificating about the end of western civilization and all.

      Indeed.

  • Abbot

    “thinking you beat the system”

    What system and created by whom?

  • Ted D

    Courtley – “Perhaps because, despite all the online rage and convoluted theorizing of devoted Manospherists, that dreaded “blue pill set of rules” is actually still working out okay for a solid majority of men out there. ”

    Or they simply don’t realize that they are at a disadvantage. Wait a few years until 50% of these happily married men are divorced, and ask them how well the “blue pill” system is working for them.

    If I would have found the ‘sphere 7 years ago, I would have believed they were all absolutely nuts. But, after my divorce and seeing first hand some of this stuff at work, it is damn hard to deny that at least SOME of this stuff is 100% true. For me the problem was figuring out how much of it was BS, and how much of it was the real deal. As in most things, I believe the truth is somewhere between “blue pill life is perfect” and “all women are lying whores out to use men”.

    As I said earlier to Megaman, the happy blue pill man of today may very well be the pissed off red pill man of tomorrow. Stats only show the current landscape. What I and other men are saying is: we believe it WILL get worse before it gets better. How much worse depends largely on how well red pill information can be pushed out to the masses, and how well they accept it. I’m not hoping for a good outcome anytime soon.

  • Ted D

    “Really? I just hang up on those people. Is it fun to “put one over on them?””

    yep. I either hang up on them (if I’m not in the mood) or I mess with them mercilessly until they catch on, or I get tired and give up.

  • Just a thought

    Cooper, there are three types of women.
    1. Women who have no understanding of the bad decisions they are making, and how picking the brooding stranger over the nice guy will affect their lives. In our sex-positive culture, many women just do not have this information. maybe 50% of women.
    2. Women who do know that what they are doing is wrong but don’t care because they know they can get away with it. And often they do get away with it. Many men will accept a girl who has been around the block, if she’s hot and acts nicely. We, girls, see this phenomenon and wonder why we ought to restrain our sexual desire when guys accept sluts as wives. So we do play the system. After all if we have sexual power, why shouldn’t we use it? (maybe 30% of girls)
    3. Girls who are aware of how their reproductive choices affect their lives and choose to make better choices. i.e. wise girls ( 10-20% of women)

    Girls in number 3 are in constant danger of falling into category 2, because often guys don’t really care/reward sexual discretion.

    I also have to point out that men also “play the system/ make bad choices too”.
    Guys will sleep with attractive, bitchy girls through their twenties and then at 35 look for a virgin to marry. When you’ve gone around de-virgining all the virgins and convincing your guy buddies to cheat on their girlfriends and sleep around–at 35/40, you suddenly want a virgin?

    hmm.

  • Abbot

    “So we do play the system.”

    By sexually satisfying men, the agents for your so-called oppression? Clearly, they are the ones benefitting most from this “system” as the joke is on…

    “you suddenly want a virgin?”

    Virgin is a term used by women to shame men who merely do not want a promiscuous woman. Just the very fact that men WANT TO switch piles [whether they do is irrelevant] sends a very disconcerting message to women society-wide.

  • Ted D

    Just A Thought – “Girls in number 3 are in constant danger of falling into category 2, because often guys don’t really care/reward sexual discretion.”

    THIS! This is the point I’m getting at, and what I think Susan should put some real focus on preventing by making sure the women in group 3 KNOW the real scoop, KNOW how those choices can change their future, and KNOW that at least some men really DO care about sexual discretion.

    They need to know just how badly it would suck if they met the perfect man, and he rejected her simply because she wanted to have some fun.

    And as far as it goes, I’ve NEVER ONCE given men a free pass in terms of bad behavior. I think slutty men are just as bad as slutty women.

  • Cooper

    “When you’ve gone around de-virgining all the virgins and convincing your guy buddies to cheat on their girlfriends and sleep around–at 35/40, you suddenly want a virgin?”

    That’s not me. 1. I’ve not gone around de-virgining all the virgins (couldn’t it be said that the women have de-virgin’d themselves?) 2. I haven’t, nor would, encourage a guy to sleep around on his gf. And 3. I’ve has a preference for low-N women all along. (this isn’t limited to 30+ men)

    Also, I agree with what you said in #140 about marrying younger. And what Zach said (#?) about kids preventing career development, and not marriage.
    So many people I know (in early twenties) have seemingly demonized marriage, as if they hold absolutely no power over what type of marriage they can have, or will create. They all have these fears about how unhappy, or boring, their lives will be once they marry. I don’t understand why some young people (ones I personally know) can’t imagine themselves married AND still in control of their happiness in life.

    ——-
    Re: Ted D, Courtley

    Can we get a description of, each of yours,”blue pill” v “red pill” rules?
    All I really got is ‘blue’ guys turn ‘red’ after being divorced.

  • Abbot

    “They need to know just how badly it would suck if they met the perfect man, and he rejected her simply because she wanted to have some fun.”

    Ohhhh, they are starting to get it along with the kick-in-the-ass realization that men just. wont. change.

    Thus all the female angst out there.

  • Zach

    @just a thought

    Re: category 2. I think you’re forgetting that “get away with it” leans very, very heavily on looks. Hot girls can get away with it. They’ll have men lined up around the block to take them out/commit to them, no matter how they behave (although woe be to them when their looks start to fade). Average looking girls? Not so much.

    Also, I think a lot of people are missing the anonymity factor in all of this. In major cities, with 100s of thousands or millions of people, it’s often very unlikely you’ll have any idea what a girl’s sexual history is if she doesn’t tell you herself. I’d say that for at least half the girls I meet at bars, we have no overlap in friend or acquaintance circles. So if that girl decides one day that she’s going to jump off the carousel, and her new guy doesn’t obsess over finding out about her past, there’s a good chance he never will.

    I think the “acts nicely” part is important as well. You’re right, in this day and age a lot of men let them get away with it. For me at least, almost all of the girls I’m interested in have an N at least over 5, and often over 10. That’s due to the fact I’m only really interested in social girls who enjoy partying/dinners/bars/etc. By age 25, it’s very hard for any attractive girl in that scene to keep an N under 5, because she’s getting hit on constantly. So even if she’s very, very selective, just by pure volume the N will rise. I’m totally aware of these dynamics, and thus I have a different threshold for N than a lot of guys. As long as the girl is selective (ie not sleeping with every other guy that hits on her), I’d rather trade a few more notches on her belt for a fun, exciting girl who I love hanging out with, than pick up a boring, stay-at-home-on-Fridays low N girl. And before you go out there talking about how I won’t be able to find a relationship with the former category, I think it’s pretty clear through the research that most of those girls are actually hoping to find one. The vast majority of girls I know in the hookup scene, except for the most slutty around, are always looking for a relationship instead of a hookup.

  • My daughter took a multi-church youth group to the beach (over 300 miles 🙁 away ) , and roped my wife and I into chaperoning. The kids were middle-school age.

    On Saturday, while the kids were in the water, I decided I wanted to feed some seagulls. Bad mistake. every scrap I threw out was endlessly fought over and hotly contended, passing from gull to gull before finally disappearing down one’s throat.

    I noticed that the behavior of the gulls wasn’t that different from the little girls my daughter was in charge of. There were about 80 of them, and of the 80 I would say that about 60 were in full race-to-the-gutter slut mode, all chasing the same 8-10 boys.

    We’d pull one little bimbo off a favored boy and three hours later we’d find him huddled with a new “girlfriend” somewhere. Official “girlfriend” status seemed to be very important to the girls; to the boys, not so much. At any rate, official “girlfriend” status seemed to have a half life not much longer than carbon-11, at which time one girl would be deposed and another take her place.

    Say what you will. This is how women act before their reflective qualities have matured and everything they do is instinctual. It is what undergirds all subsequent developments.

  • Sai

    #129 -Ted D.

    Please don’t take this in a creepy way, but I enjoyed the description of your relationship with your special person. If I am ever with someone I want things to be that way. 🙂

  • Joe

    I’m so glad the story on the Olympic athletes has come up. (If you missed it, it’s here.

    What caught my attention was this:

    Many liken it to a high school cafeteria, “except everyone’s beautiful,” says Julie Foudy, who has two golds and one silver from playing soccer in three Olympics and is now an analyst for ESPN. “We’d graze over our food for hours watching all the eye candy, wondering why I got married.”

    I sort of understand, but only in a minor sense from my days at a martial artists trying my hand at tournaments. It’s like everyone you see is a winner and attractive and the testosterone runs pretty thick.

    But now I see it in terms of alpha-ness and beta-ness. There’s a lot of Alpha-ness on display in the Olympic village right now, but it’s not like everyone there is particularly attractive in a physical sense nor will everyone come out with a medal. It’s that they seem attractive to each other because they feel like winners, if only by participating at such a high level event.

    It’s more a state of mind than anything else, isn’t it? And I think it’s not relegated to a favored few, either. It’s a sense of accomplishment you might feel after college graduation in a tough major or after getting a promotion. I got it once when I “beat” a new & used car sales man and got the (demonstrably fair) price I wanted. That’s a competition too, you know.

    These are things that should separate the alphas from the betas even if they occur every day.

    When I look at the list of things in the survey, many come down to one question: What are people looking for in a mate? It seems the story about the Olympic Athletes tells me more directly what people are looking for.

    • @Joe

      When I look at the list of things in the survey, many come down to one question: What are people looking for in a mate? It seems the story about the Olympic Athletes tells me more directly what people are looking for.

      Watching the road race and its aftermath yesterday, I couldn’t help but come to the same conclusion. Every cyclist was so incredibly dominant in his presentation, both physical and mental, that the notion of even considering their sex lives seemed entirely irrelevant, not to mention inappropriate.

  • INTJ

    @Just a thought

    Abbot, I think in general, you would be correct. But there is a third way for women, a way to allow women to have careers and still get married early. The third ways is this, to let young women get married to young men. Before you argue that this is crazy, consider this, my parents were married young, in their early twenties. I would argue that for guys to marry girls young is the best because guys who are younger than 30 have slept with lest women and are therefore less jaded. Women at a young age are more attractive. Both the young man and women would have to climb the career ladder together and live poor for a while, which would in turn create a lot of pair- bonding which would increase the chances of a lasting marriage.
    I think that a lot of the problems with marriage nowadays occurs due to the lack of pair bonding between partners which is both a result of too much sexual experience and the fact that , often people get married at 30 when their careers are all set up and they are already successful. However, if this were changed, i.e., people came into marriage when they were poor and supported each other to become successful– it would be a trial of the marriage by fire which would force the worst marriages to break apart but hold the best marriages together like glue.
    Now, Abbot, there would be more dependency on a man if you had 16/17/20 year olds marrying 30 year old men. I think this idea would also backfire in a couple of ways.
    1. The men would exercise complete control over the women due to age and success which would make the marriage less an intellectual match.
    2. Probably decimate the woman’s chance of having a career.
    3. Lead to nastier divorces because the woman would basically live off the man for most of her adult life.
    My idea can also backfire due to stupidity and youthful indiscretions, but I think my idea is possibly the only way to protect virginity and marriage in our culture. But maybe I am also ruthlessly idealistic.

    I’m 20 right now. I’d love to get married now. But everything I hear, whether from listening to female friends state their preferences or from reading blogs, surveys, forum posts, etc. online, is that women who wish to get married prefer an older guy who has a good career and is settled down and all. It’s so frustrating that because of my age and lack of career, the girls who would consider a relationship with me right now are looking for a short term boyfriend. I know at least two guys who feel the same way.

  • Emily

    >> “I also agree that it’s very tricky for guys. You never know whether you’re with a liberated woman, a traditionally minded woman or something in between. In addition, I’ve known guys who were put off when the woman insisted because they interpreted that as her saying there would be no second date, and she wanted to discourage those expectations.”

    I’ll admit that I’ve done the rummaging “fake offer” thing before. (My usual “strategy” is just to dig through my purse and sloooooowly take out my wallet). Although it’s more of an awkwardness thing when I’m not sure what the guys expectations are when it comes to paying. Like some of the other girls have said, some guys will be insulted if you pay your half, but on the other hand you don’t want to look like a gold digger either. …but maybe that tactic isn’t as sneaky as I thought it was. : P

    I haven’t dated very many guys, but IME the guy has always insisted on paying, so I just make sure that I thank him/be grateful. If we’re at the bar, I’ll also occasionally send a drink his way or get smaller things while we’re out (coffee etc.) And I won’t let a guy spend money on me unless I’m seriously interested in him.

  • Emily

    INTJ,

    A lot of marriage-minded girls also tend to go for older guys because they assume that most younger guys aren’t interested in getting married any time soon.

    I’d personally love to see more people getting married young.

  • INTJ

    @Emily

    INTJ,

    A lot of marriage-minded girls also tend to go for older guys because they assume that most younger guys aren’t interested in getting married any time soon.

    I’d personally love to see more people getting married young.

    Yeah I don’t blame them for that, and I’d certainly believe that at least at UT Austin, around 80% of young men are not interested in marriage.

  • Cooper

    ” I know at least two guys who feel the same way.”

    You can add one more. I’m only 23, and my cousin who’s 32 is dating a 24yo (and been together for 1year+)
    She couldn’t believe I was a year younger than her, she said namely because I look like the type ready to settle down, and that gave her the impression I had to be at least 27.

  • It’s that they seem attractive to each other because they feel like winners, if only by participating at such a high level event.

    I do beleive this is another piece on the puzzle of attraction and SMP. Most people want to feel like winners but I think culture gives little space for that. I mean showing your amazing pics on facebook loses the shine when everyone else does it. Marrying young is for losers in popular culture as it being not very sexually experimented, so yeah I think the whole self steem but not self worth is mixed with that too, YMMV.

    yep. I either hang up on them (if I’m not in the mood) or I mess with them mercilessly until they catch on, or I get tired and give up.

    I usually say that I just moved to another country and took the phone with me. “Sorry but now I live on Burkina Faso, it looks like the company hasn’t made the transfer” they usually give up. 😀

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ted

    “But when it all comes down to brass tacks, my issue with promiscuity is still very much about the exchange of even values and price discrimination”

    Yep. If you put out for some other guy faster than you did with me, I am skeptical of your feelings for me. Trust is damaged. Better try hard to make up for that. It’s not impossible, but it’s damn difficult, and you did it to yourself.

    @ Ana

    Hell, it’s hard to be a winner because everyone is gonna be insecure on something. The important bit is not to compare yourself constantly to other people, because everyone’s got you beat in something.

    This leads to many interesting cases where I somehow end up jealous of my best friend and he ends up jealous of me. He is quite convinced that, once I muscle-up and if I ever fix my teeth, I’d clean up with girls better than any guy he has ever known. I am quite convinced the only reason he isn’t ALREADY cleaning up with girls is because he’s a goddam pussy that can’t open and escalate and he goes after the hottest ones all the time.

  • Abbot

    “If you put out for some other guy faster than you did with me, I am skeptical of your feelings for me. Trust is damaged. Better try hard to make up for that. It’s not impossible, but it’s damn difficult, and you did it to yourself.”

    This is a universal feeling among men [fortunately limited to those stuck dealing with promiscuous women]. What is the female reaction upon learning this is really now men feel?

  • Sai

    #177 -Abbot
    “This is a universal feeling among men [fortunately limited to those stuck dealing with promiscuous women]. What is the female reaction upon learning this is really now men feel?”

    Doesn’t bother me.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ref golddiggers: Couple of years ago, on some relationship site, one woman said, “Coffee? Hell no. It had better be a good martini”. Another said, “Don’t think I’m impressed with a chain restaurant where I already know the menu.”
    With the latter case, I suppose a chain restaurant shows a slight lack of imagination. OTOH, maybe the guy’s not a gourmet in the first place and it’s company he’s after, not food. A steak is a steak.
    Point is, such women are advertising the price for their company without explaining the value-added first.
    And non-chain restaurants don’t have to be particularly fancy, either. Endless little places advertising “home cookin'”.
    Agree with caveats to the survey. There’s no such thing as a completely trustworthy promise of anonymity. I don’t suppose they’d want to use fingerprints, but tiny cameras in the ceiling looking over your shoulder, hidden marks on the paper…. I have no idea, and I trust that most of the tests are anonymous as there isn’t much the tester is going to do with the info if it’s personal. But still…. Got to be an effect.
    Do I hear some negative comments about the Good Man Project? Although they ran four short stories of mine, I have some major and minor objections. They ran a piece about a guy who rescued a woman from a burning car at a Texas toll booth. The responses were tepid, tentative and seemed to be reaching for some excuse not to be expected to do the same if necessary.
    Strange when you think the objective is the “good” man.

  • Just a thought

    For all those who, like me, want to marry young. Mark Regnerus wrote a very sensible opp-ed about it in the Washington Post. Here’s the link:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042402122.html
    Susan, what do you think?

    • @Just a thought

      Re early marriage, Regnerus makes some compelling arguments, but my own personal preference puts the sweet spot at the mid-20s for women. I don’t think 24 is too young to marry by any means, but I think it’s important for women to establish the ability to support themselves, which generally takes a couple of years after college.

      Also, from a purely practical point of view, few women today are meeting their future spouses in college. Most 21 yo college graduates don’t even have the opportunity to consider whether the time is right to marry.

      As someone who married at 27 and had my first child at 30, I wish I’d had a bit more time. I would have liked to have started a family earlier, and I probably would have had a third child.

  • Courtley

    @Ted D

    Fair enough regarding most of your post and I appreciate you taking a skeptical eye to all of this and understanding that your personal experiences are a big factor here. But I have to call you out on the assumption that 50% of these men will be divorce–you have to know this statistic is and has always been inaccurate.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/07/divorce-myths-debunked_n_804934.html#s219156&title=Half_of_All

    For some demographics of men–those who fall into the educated, higher-income, married-in-their-later-20s bracket, the “blue pill” will be a completely suitable way to view the world of relationships. For other men, just by virtue of their education and income level, the state they live, in etc., the odds are indeed stacked against them.

    This is a huge part of the whole SMP that I don’t see discussed enough in the Manosphere or related type of blogs. It seems to me to be the elephant in the room here–that the sexual revolution has brought advantages in some ways to certain segments of society, but wrecked havoc on the already economically and socially disadvantaged.

  • szopen

    I think that a lot of answers may be indeed by the people, who may genuinely think they believe in what they say, only because they haven’t yet found that they don’t really think like that 🙂 I remember a lot of things I was believing in when i was 25 or so, which I found now ridiculous.The influence of the culture and your peers is sometimes sooo huge…

    For once thing, I always liked the big butts but I joked along with my friends, and I would deny it, if someone would asked it 🙂 If I got asked in some online poll whether big butts are sexy, i would say definetely no and I would believe I had not lied.

  • Wudang

    “For some demographics of men–those who fall into the educated, higher-income, married-in-their-later-20s bracket, the “blue pill” will be a completely suitable way to view the world of relationships. For other men, just by virtue of their education and income level, the state they live, in etc., the odds are indeed stacked against them.”

    Most of the people I know fall into that category. Based on the dynamics I see between the couples both the husbands and wives would be endlessly better of with some red pill wisdom. Most of the marriages will survive without it but that does not mean they are very satisfying unions, or that even though many of them are quite satisfying unions they would be much more happy with some red pill understanding and married game. Even one of the most horrible cases of a passive overly beta man with a wife reluctantly wearing the pants I think will last because they are both very relationship oriented, low count, very future time oriented, very, very, very security seeking, neither have much options and most critically I think they have much lower expectations of how much desire and infatuation and satisfaction they are supposed to and need to
    feel. I think they are in a sense happy with the comfort the other brings plus SOME remaining sexual attraction. Many of the other marriages I see are much, much better than this one but they do seem to share the common factor of being between people who seem to have decided that they will stay with something that is quite good rather than keep up the revolving chair dance to look for a better deal. Just a basic understanding of married game would help them a lot.

  • Ted D

    Courtley – the thing is, I’m not UMC at all. I would say I am LMC, but compared to many in my immediate area well off, which is to say I live in a town being turned into a public housing ghetto. For Susan’s target audience your statement is probably true. But from where I’m sitting, 50% divorce rate is a likely outcome for man that says “I do”. I’m already part of that group, and according to your stats my chances were better because I have a higher education.

    Stats are fine and well for general discussion, but at some point the numbers just DO NOT describe reality for everyone. And even though I have a college degree and a white collar job, I also have a divorce decree in my document safe. For me you can show any stat you like, and it won’t reverse what the court system already approved.

  • Courtley

    @Wudang

    Satisfaction levels are trickier to quantify than the divorce rate, obviously, and I’m sure we can all think of several couples off the top of our heads who will probably stay together and be fairly happy, but could improve their happiness if they had a better understanding of gender psychology–but I’d also say that a deeper understanding of the individual they married would probably benefit a lot of couples as much as or more than the “red pill” theories.

    Regarding the part of my comment that you quoted, though, do most of the people you know fall into the first or second categories I described? I am thinking the first, since your point seems to be that staying together in and of itself is not an indication of happiness, but you did quote what I said about both demographics, so not quite sure there. :/

  • Courtley

    @Ted D

    Stats are all about the big picture and can indeed be irrelevant to individual situations. I am just saying that to overlook the statistical correlation between socioeconomics and things like the divorce rate, or single motherhood, and instead ONLY focus on theories of female sexual behavior is short-sighted at best, and intentionally reframing the discussion to fit one’s personal vendetta against women at worst, which is what I think happens far too often in the wider Manosphere.

    As you said earlier, I think the answer lies somewhere between a totally naive “blue pill” worldview and an “all women are whores” one. I think this is probably generally true whenever a version of the ‘nature vs. nurture’ debate comes up. Biology and environment both play a role in shaping human behavior.

    I do believe there are many couples–many of the people I know personally, anyway–who have a very “blue pill” perspective but still have happy and solid marriages. Generally these couples have some version of the traditional male as protector/provider and women as receptor/nurturer dynamic in their relationship, although what looks like can vary widely from couple to couple. This exists despite most of these men NOT believing that women prefer dominant assholes and, in fact, often believing quite the opposite, because this belief doesn’t necessarily prevent them from embodying certain traditionally masculine traits in their relationships.

  • Wudang

    Almost all the people I know are in the first category. Highly educated UMC. I had at least some friends in my teens that came from poor backgrounds and have not gotten an education but I rarely meet any of them anymore. I also know a few locals where my family has a summer house and that is a coastal small town where many do not have an education.

  • Wudang

    Coutrely if a couple does in fact have a more traditional dynamic going on what they intellectually believe or tell themselves that they are doing is not really important. That is still in large part a red pill dynamic which maintains sexual attraction. Those friends of mine that fall closer to this I have less worries about. The problem is that the expectations of behavior in relationships today is so far off from what is useful even those who have everything right on paper end up with problematic dynamics. I have a network of friends that includes an unusual amount of very alpha men, especially sexually alpha, and even most of them fall far too much into a betaized dynamic in relationships because they believe they are doing what they are supposed to do.

  • Courtley

    “Coutrely if a couple does in fact have a more traditional dynamic going on what they intellectually believe or tell themselves that they are doing is not really important. That is still in large part a red pill dynamic which maintains sexual attraction.”

    Well, sure, that is kind of my point. 🙂 You can have that dynamic while still believing those craaazy blue pill things, such as being kind and compassionate are more positive in relationships than being a domineering asshole. The fact that the men I know are kind, compassionate and what the Manosphere would term “provider beta” types is not mutually exclusive to them also assuming the traditional masculine protective role in their relationships. This is why I say that the blue pill is still going to work out fine for most people, because contrary to popular Manosphere belief, what makes the majority of women feel protected and feminine in their relationships is not extreme domination that only a super-duper alpha can bring, it is something the average guy can do regardless of his personal theories on female sexuality.

  • SayWhaat

    I’d rather trade a few more notches on her belt for a fun, exciting girl who I love hanging out with, than pick up a boring, stay-at-home-on-Fridays low N girl.

    As a low-N girl who is no stranger to fun and excitement…ouch. 😛

  • SayWhaat

    I’ll admit that I’ve done the rummaging “fake offer” thing before. (My usual “strategy” is just to dig through my purse and sloooooowly take out my wallet). Although it’s more of an awkwardness thing when I’m not sure what the guys expectations are when it comes to paying. Like some of the other girls have said, some guys will be insulted if you pay your half, but on the other hand you don’t want to look like a gold digger either. …but maybe that tactic isn’t as sneaky as I thought it was. : P

    Ditto, I went out with a guy once who was completely flummoxed that I insisted on paying for my coffee. He later told me that he almost took it as a sign that I wasn’t interested, had I not agreed to a second date.

    I also had an embarrassing date where I showed up before he did and ordered a drink at the bar, then realized I didn’t have my wallet. (For real!) I profusely apologized to him when he showed up, and he kind of smirked. We hit it off in conversation and at one point he asked me if the reason I wasn’t ordering more drinks was because I didn’t have my wallet, and offered to get me another. I declined, but he treated me to ice cream afterwards anyway.

    I planned the next date for us, but we never got to it because he had to leave the city. No idea if that was actually the case or not, as I may have left a bad impression wrt the wallet…

    /storytime

  • Emily

    >> ” ‘I’d rather trade a few more notches on her belt for a fun, exciting girl who I love hanging out with, than pick up a boring, stay-at-home-on-Fridays low N girl.’

    >> ‘As a low-N girl who is no stranger to fun and excitement…ouch.’ ”

    You think that’s bad? I read his post while I was staying at home on a Friday. 😛 (I’m not always this boring! Really!)

  • INTJ

    @Just a thought

    Nice article. Since I’m a UT student, I should actually meet this Mark Regnerus.

  • “Red pill world” might be more real than “blue pill world,” but it still isn’t reality.

    The whole ‘pill’ system Red OR Blue is a way people make sense of their experiences. But they aren’t the experiences themselves.

    I wonder if some of the difficulties are with Blue Pill Worlders getting into relationships with Red Pill Worlders.

    Two people on the Blue Pill can get along just fine. Two Red pill people…they both know what the score is.

    But when people on two different worldview prescriptions come together, hurt feelings ensue.

  • Just a thought

    Zach, I think you will be able to find a relationship. And your post offers pretty good insight into how most guys outside of the manosphere approach relationships. Guys generally will notice a woman’s attractiveness first, her kindness next, their compatibility third and ask about her sexual escapades last, if ever. This is not necessarily a bad way to go about relationships because kindness and a good personality is probably more important than the number of guys she’s slept with. As an N=0 girl, I find that I tend to stay away from alcohol, bars, and parties because I don’t drink and don’t want to risk drunken hookups, stupid memories, law-breaking, and/or sexual assault. This often makes me seem pretty boring.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “This is not necessarily a bad way to go about relationships because kindness and a good personality is probably more important than the number of guys she’s slept with. ”

    Absolutely true, but a high N starts to ring alarm bells, and certain kinds of sexual behavior also starts to ring alarm bells.

    High-N women aren’t all horrible people. I absolutely believe Tom when he says he knows some double-digit N women that are great wives. Susan herself seems to be an absolutely wonderful mother, wife, and person.

    It’s still ringing alarm bells in those initial stages, though. Way easier to trust and connect with an average- or low-N woman. At least it is for me.

    In a hypothetical situation where a double digit N woman landed on HUS-island and tried to find a husband, half of the men here would instantly DQ her or otherwise be very suspicious of her. Is that really worth a ONS or a fling or never being single in college? Is it really worth seriously jeopardizing your marriage prospects with HALF of your mating pool, when women college graduates already vastly outnumber men college graduates?

    Nope. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    And while I really think Abbott is exaggerating when he says EVERY man feels his way, it doesn’t matter. What matters is that a significant portion of men feel this way (half or more). I am not sure women are aware of the massive MMP damage they are doing to themselves by engaging in slutty behavior. I am reminded of Lokland’s story where he lived with a bunch of women and they absolutely thought Lokland was in a tiny minority when he said they were damaging their MMP.

    Not the case. There’s a significant chunk of men that feel like me, or Jesus M, or Ted D, or Lokland, or Jason.

  • SayWhaat

    In a hypothetical situation where a double digit N woman landed on HUS-island and tried to find a husband, half of the men here would instantly DQ her or otherwise be very suspicious of her. Is that really worth a ONS or a fling or never being single in college?

    Not saying you aren’t, but you are assuming that the men currently occupying HUS-island are prizes.

  • Emily

    Although I believe that guys prefer low-N women, I still think that it’s easier for a slut to get a husband than it is for a woman who’s waiting until marriage.

  • On a slightly different note, hookingupsmart.com made it to the Internet map:

    http://internet-map.net/#11-127.95220947265625-97.0949478149414

    • Hope, that is so cool, I’ve never seen the internet map before!

  • @Susan

    In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.

    Even then you’re not helping women much.

    Half of women think it’s mutual investment, half of women think it’s the man’s duty to invest, but not a single damn woman thinks men are worthing investing in alone.

    Kind of telling. If the best a man can do is 50/50 why should he bother?

    • If the best a man can do is 50/50 why should he bother?

      Personally, if I were a guy I’d like those odds, but this is a matter of personal preference. As I’ve often stated here, I wanted my husband to pay the first time, then I spent the next year paying nearly 100%, due to our different economic circumstances.

  • Abbot

    “Although I believe that guys prefer low-N women, I still think that it’s easier for a slut to get a husband than it is for a woman who’s waiting until marriage”

    Where [in the West] are these women who are waiting for marriage?

  • Emily

    Well there’s Jackie for starters…

  • Sai

    I mean no disrespect to proponents of early marriage, but… where would the younger folks find people they’d want to marry? In high school you know, well, other high-schoolers and some people from around the neighborhood. That’s a pretty limited group, and depending on where you live a good portion of your classmates will already be acting like tramps and douchebags. (and no, not all girls like them -they treated me badly for no reason and I fought back, and I might’ve gotten that one guy busted for drugs…)
    If you go to college you become familiar with any number of classmates there, depending on the heaviness of your schedule and the size of your college. But there are still so very many people out there…
    I guess I’m very biased because I’ve had crazy wanderlust since I was old enough to spell the word. But to me it’s like deciding which Cajun dish you’re going to eat -Cajun is GREAT, but wouldn’t you want to give some other menu a glance -you don’t have to choose anything from there if you don’t want -before deciding that’s all?
    (Sorry for the lame analogy. I solemnly vow if I ever get married he’ll never starve. XD)

  • Abbot

    “Way easier to trust and connect with an average- or low-N woman.”

    No matter what, no man anywhere would say or believe otherwise when all other traits are close enough to equal

    “Is it really worth seriously jeopardizing your marriage prospects with HALF of your mating pool”

    That is it – its the new man shortage aka the slut taker shortage: its all about the quantity of men willing or at least not repelling sluts for commitment. Women and their feminist advocates have already given up on the whole “sex positive” thing which was created SOLELY to get men to embrace a woman’s sexual expression as positive for marriage preparation [at best] and not even thinking about it [at worst].

    “I am not sure women are aware of the massive MMP damage they are doing to themselves by engaging in slutty behavior”

    But you can be absolutely sure that women who do get a whiff of the truth throw up a wall of denial and the rest are kept from the awareness via propaganda spewed by those who fear it. Its only a matter of time before the lid blows off and one article after another about this damage will riddle the mainstream media. Then even those men who were oblivious, purposely or otherwise, will be taking the guilty until proven nonslutocent approach to all their dates.

  • Emily

    Sai,

    The trick is to find somebody who also has crazy wanderlust.

    My bf and I are both really into travelling and we sometimes go on trips together. (If anything I’m the one holding us back for $$$ reasons.) I don’t see why marriage would put an end to that. I plan on marrying somebody who wants to travel the world and be badasses together. 🙂

  • Abbot

    If you don’t think that the Revulsion Standard is not permeating society…

    “Men have an innate emotional revulsion from bonding with promiscuous women. The feminist society today just pressures men to marry sluts, otherwise, you just might be labeled primitive/small dick/any other feminist shaming technique. But the revulsion in your guts is right, men have intuition as well, sluts don’t deserve to be loved, sexually experienced women are only good for sexual experiences, they don’t worth the risks to have any emotional bonds with.”

    http://dicipres.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/sluts-dont-deserve-to-be-loved/

    This is not about right or wrong or morals or ethics or shaming certain behaviors, its only about how men feel.

    The ONLY question is – what are women going to do about it? That is besides whine and shame

  • Escoffier

    “you are assuming that the men currently occupying HUS-island are prizes.”

    I can’t speak for everyone but I definitely am.

  • Abbot

    This is being repeated all over America, every day, more and more –

    ” I will say that as a guy with a girlfriend who has had 13 sexual partners to my 2, it is difficult. It is a thought that pops into my head without control. I try not to judge her for it. However I will say, that I think the reason behind multiple sexual partners leading to failed marriages is because all too often in a relationship (albeit normally the males fault) there is a certain amount of animosity that stems from the elevated number of sexual partners. For instance, I can go weeks without thinking about it and then run into one of her numerous flings, then I must start all over at square 1. I would like to look into to the divorce rates of couples with a disparity between previous sexual partners. I feel as if I had slept with 13 women it would not bother me as much.”

    From the site cited above

  • Sai

    #205 -Emily

    Everybody needs somebody else to spell it out for them sometimes, huh? 🙂

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @SayWhat
    “Not saying you aren’t, but you are assuming that the men currently occupying HUS-island are prizes.”

    Quite true, but if your standards are inflexible, it means you are shrinking your mating pool even more.

    And according to the askmen survey, a huge chunk of men are going to DQ you when you hit double-digit N. It’s not just HUS readers. We actually have quite a few more “open-minded” men here.

    If I were a girl, I wouldn’t be taking the risk.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I’m also not sure that sluts have an easier time finding husbands than chaste(r) girls. Girls waiting for marriage, though, yeah, that’s a totally different ball-game. The vast majority of guys are not going to wait until marriage to get laid.

    Setting that standard more or less means eliminating, like, 90% of the men out there.

    As for my PERSONAL experience, from what I can tell, the chaste(r) girls have married, the slutty girls always have boyfriends but switch through them PDQ.

  • Rice n Beans

    Its not hard to stay 100% faithful to someone for an entire life.

  • Abbot

    “the chaste(r) girls have married, the slutty girls always have boyfriends but switch through them PDQ”

    Why is knowledge of such pure logic is so painful…for some?

  • Abbot

    “Its not hard to stay 100% faithful to someone for an entire life.”

    Then it behooves a man to maximize those odds

  • Just a thought

    Abbot, in the deep South, women are more likely to wait for marriage. Religious girls are more likely to wait for marriage. Children of immigrants, who come from a country with more restrictive values are more likely to wait for marriage. But if you are prizing virginity, you may have to compromise other things you’d like, namely, sexual experience, how “fun” a girl is, and attractiveness.

    Sai, I think that the fun doesn’t have to stop with marriage. It’s children that take away your choices, not marriage. Furthermore, I personally don’t really want to date 10 guys or even 5. I’d rather have one guy, depend on him and not have to worry and then get married. I think many people feel like I do.

    However, I think chaste girls do have a harder time meeting guys, because as a group they are less likely to go to bars, go to wild, crazy parties and so on. Furthermore, guys often DQ virgins because they represent too much investment and the pressure is too great.
    I know a girl who went on a date with a guy. The first question he asked was , ” What’s your sexual experience?” When he found out she was a virgin, he basically walked out. I know another virgin who was hopelessly crushing on another guy, but he wouldn’t date her because she was a virgin and eventually ended up dating someone else. I think virginity is a great risk in this culture right now and that’s why I find hooking up smart kind of frustrating. If you are very attractive, a guy would perhaps be willing ti take a risk on you; but otherwise, guys will run away. Perhaps because I am in college I have a skewed viewpoint, but here, virginity is (dare I say it) a badge of shame.

  • Rice n Beans

    Abbot July 28, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    “Its not hard to stay 100% faithful to someone for an entire life.”

    Then it behooves a man to maximize those odds

    Abbot, huh? Whadya mean?

    Just a though, yeah, there are virgin women in their 20s but many of them aren’t the “hotties” guys say they want. There’s always a trade off somewhere, this is what some people don’t wanna swallow.

  • SayWhaat

    Just a though, yeah, there are virgin women in their 20s but many of them aren’t the “hotties” guys say they want.

    That’s absolutely false. I had no problem attracting guys when I was a virgin, it was the virginity itself that repelled them (after 5-6 dates of investment). And I know quite a few other girls who are virgins, and beautiful to boot.

  • SayWhaat

    Half of women think it’s mutual investment, half of women think it’s the man’s duty to invest, but not a single damn woman thinks men are worthing investing in alone.

    Guys want chastity, girls want providers. Them’s the breaks.

  • SayWhaat

    And according to the askmen survey, a huge chunk of men are going to DQ you when you hit double-digit N. It’s not just HUS readers.

    Agreed. In fact, just the other day an associate (who I know for a fact is cleaning up with the ladies) on my team was mocking girls who were “sexually empowered”. Too bad it doesn’t cut both ways, last I heard he’d already slept with half of Manhattan. 😛

  • Abbot

    What is all this mention of virgins? Why does this always come up? Where has any man here stated that they want or are looking for virgins? Enough with this crap already. Men do not want to marry sluts. A slut is not defined as a woman who is not a virgin. Now the record os straight. Again. Men, universally, if they can find it, want a woman who did not cock men up while traveling alone or with girlfriends on vacation, did not jump from tent to tent on the beach on spring break…and on and on and on. Why? Because its too easy for women and taking advantage of that cheap [valueless] advantage is considered low. Men dont want low. They want to be proud of their life mate choice, to introduce her to friends knowing that she maintained character. Because men do want to bond with a woman because that feels really good and do not want or need to go through some mental “thought control” torture to get there. Is there anything else that needs to be explained after dozens of posts and thousands of comments on this website? Women want to do this and that and then later have this and that. Good luck, really. Men want to dodge and duck and make sure they dont throw their entire lives at the town bike. Good luck to them too. But who in this world has more options? Well, there is the rub, and the angst among women is palpable. Now that the information is out there, women can no longer claim ignorance and all the whining, shaming and strategizing will not change how. men. think.

  • Courtley

    ^^
    “A slut is not defined as a woman who is not a virgin.”

    Ahh…now we’re getting somewhere! I agree with you that most men out there are not looking to marry virgins. The ones that are either have religious or non-Western cultural convictions about female virginity, or are massively insecure about their ability to sexually please a female partner and compete with former partners.

    I think most guys define ‘slut’ as a woman who has a lot of ONS, or a serial cheater/cuckolder, not a woman who has Ever Had Sex Before. I’d say your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage. If those relationships ended because she cheated, that might do it, but if they ended because they were in high school and went to different colleges or they just discovered they were incompatible life partners or any other sort of non-skeezy reason, again, I think most men can handle this. I think this is why Susan is smart to recommend serial monogamy and advise against hook-ups and cheating, because those are the things that bring out that gut-level revulsion in guys that want to get married, not the fact that you had sex with a couple of steady boyfriends who you cared about.

    Also, this:
    “I’d rather trade a few more notches on her belt for a fun, exciting girl who I love hanging out with, than pick up a boring, stay-at-home-on-Fridays low N girl.”

    Yeah, again, I think MOST guys sort of feel similarly. I don’t think all guys take virginity as an automatic sign of being sexually frigid, I think they tend to judge that a little more holistically, but guys looking for a life partner must balance their concern that the woman is unable to bond sexually because of extreme promiscuity with the concern that she is so out of touch with her sexuality that he’ll end up in the all-too-common sexless marriage.

  • Abbot

    “guys looking for a life partner must balance their concern that the woman is unable to bond sexually because of extreme promiscuity”

    Somewhat but it is really he who will be unmotivated or not enthusiastic about bonding with her. That lurching attraction bubble is burst from the get go. Too many probes have compromised the membrane…

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I think most guys define ‘slut’ as a woman who has a lot of ONS, or a serial cheater/cuckolder, not a woman who has Ever Had Sex Before. I’d say your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage. If those relationships ended because she cheated, that might do it, but if they ended because they were in high school and went to different colleges or they just discovered they were incompatible life partners or any other sort of non-skeezy reason, again, I think most men can handle this. I think this is why Susan is smart to recommend serial monogamy and advise against hook-ups and cheating, because those are the things that bring out that gut-level revulsion in guys that want to get married, not the fact that you had sex with a couple of steady boyfriends who you cared about.

    I have pretty high standards what I consider gf/wife material, and I agree with this.

  • Emily

    >> “What is all this mention of virgins? Why does this always come up? Where has any man here stated that they want or are looking for virgins? Enough with this crap already”

    It’s because there are a lot of virgins out there (more than ever according to Susan’s stats!) and they actually have a HARDER time in the SMP. Virgins are highly relevant in these conversations.

    From what I can tell, the “ideal” for most most men seem to be a girl with an “N” of 1-2, or at the very least a virgin who will put out fairly early on. But from there, it’s very easy for those numbers to add up even for a well-intentioned girl who doesn’t do ONS etc.

    To be honest, I’d actually prefer it if guys preferred chaste virgins. It would be a lot less confusing.

    IMO most guys prefer chastity, BUT ONLY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

  • Courtley

    @Emily

    Yes, it is easy for the numbers to add up even without ONS, but surely not as quickly if you’re really waiting to be in a committed relationship before having sex. And again, I think HOW your N’s were added up, and under what circumstances and with whom and what sort of attitude all factor in. Yes, while # certainly does matter, what a lot of guys are looking for in a wife/long-term partner is demonstrable character and morals and trustworthiness and some kind of natural proclivity towards long-term mating and “beta males.” It is the women who demonstrate an insatiable draw towards extreme dominance, being badly treated, and promiscuous sex without emotional attachment that I think a lot of guys avoid when seeking wives and mothers for their children.

  • Abbot

    “the “ideal” for most most men seem to be a girl with an “N” of 1-2, or at the very least a virgin who will put out fairly early on”

    “Most men” is correct regarding that universal thinking and although the comfort-level-N [CLN] varies, the lower the N the more the waiting feels right. High N women who later in life want to slow down the time to sex are currently running into a wall of impatience from men who refuse to grant them the agency to make them wait.

    “your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage.”

    It is NEVER these low N women who shame men by calling them “virgin obsessed” as if to make the argument that low-N-women seekers are some sort of archaic cavemen throwbacks. ONLY sluts and feminists us the V word as a weapon because they now find themselves being evaluated and pitted against women who exercised restraint. Its a war between factions of women and men are being used as scapegoats. Deep down, all women know that men do not want to marry sluts if the option is available. Any woman who states otherwise is a liar, in denial, ignorant or stupid.

  • Abbot

    “It is the women who demonstrate an insatiable draw towards extreme dominance, being badly treated, and promiscuous sex without emotional attachment that I think a lot of guys avoid when seeking wives and mothers for their children.”

    and there is no statute of limitations on that demonstration

  • Emily

    >> “It is NEVER these low N women who shame men by calling them “virgin obsessed” as if to make the argument that low-N-women seekers are some sort of archaic cavemen throwbacks. ”

    My complaint isn’t that men are “virgin obsessed”. It’s the opposite. My complaint is that men DON’T want to get involved with virgins, and then turn around and complain that there are too many sluts.

    Myself, Saywhaat, Jackie, and many religious girls that I’ve known have all been rejected for being too chaste.

    I think it’s comparable to guys who get rejected for being “too nice” and then have to listen to the girls complain that there are too many jerks.

  • Just1X

    “To be honest, I’d actually prefer it if guys preferred chaste virgins. It would be a lot less confusing.

    IMO most guys prefer chastity, BUT ONLY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.”

    ‘de-flowering a virgin’ is probably a widespread male fantasy…but…if you have any morality, taking the virginity of someone who values it as a casual sex act – pretty shit behaviour (IMHO).

    So if ‘you’ make something of the fact that you’re a virgin, he may walk away because he’s treating you as a human being. ‘nice guy’ is a loaded term, perhaps ‘decent human being’?

    (either that or he thinks ‘you’ will be too much effort. not ‘decent’ as much as ‘efficient’)

  • Just a thought

    Emily, you are completely right. And your words back up what I see in dating. I would only add another level to your argument, guys are more likely to commit to hotter virgins. I.e., if you are a virgin who is a 6 or above on the attractiveness scale, guys will be more likely to commit to you and take it slow. Virginity becomes an advantage for marriage minded men.
    If you are a 5 or below, virginity becomes a disadvantage because guys don’t want to wait and don’t think you are worth it.

  • Escoffier

    “The first question he asked was, ‘What’s your sexual experience?'”

    Yeah, well, IMO that should have DQed him right there. Who the hell asks that of someone they just me, much less as a first question? She should have ran like hell.

  • Andrew

    First time poster here,

    @Emily
    “To be honest, I’d actually prefer it if guys preferred chaste virgins. It would be a lot less confusing.”

    Do you think the other way around, that girls (including virgins and non virgins) prefer a virgin guy?

    @just1x
    “So if ‘you’ make something of the fact that you’re a virgin, he may walk away because he’s treating you as a human being.”

    Would you apply that same situation if the guy told a woman that he’s a virgin?

    @Just a thought
    “guys are more likely to commit to hotter virgins. I.e., if you are a virgin who is a 6 or above on the attractiveness scale, guys will be more likely to commit to you and take it slow. Virginity becomes an advantage for marriage minded men.
    If you are a 5 or below, virginity becomes a disadvantage because guys don’t want to wait and don’t think you are worth it.”

    Do you think the same is true, that girls would be committed to a guy if he was a virgin based on higher value in physical attraction?

  • Wudang

    Courtley your views on what PUAs think and what the red pill means is ill informed. This is what hardcore PUAs have to say about romance:

    http://www.pua-zone.com/showthread.php?5098-Is-romance-always-beta

    When I say it does not matter if you believe blue pill stuff if you actually behave red pill I am meaning exactly that not that it is fine to keep some blue pill behavior as long as there is a good chunck of rep pill. The latter is never useful IMO. When I say believe blue pill and act red pill I am referring to stuff such as my father which is a blank slate blue piller intellectually but was a major alpha in his time or the hardcore feminist activist I went to college with who ended up with an extremely cocky and wild alpha and thinks they have an equalist relationship.

    Red pill does not IMO exclude being nice or necessitate being an asshole. It does include the knowledge that that can work scarily well but it does not prescribe anything other than sufficient dominant behavior combined with non needy niceness on his OWN terms and appropriate taking into account your own self interest. Have you read any actual PUA material? If you want to know read the book of Pook by Pookie, the most influential poster on Sosuave one of the biggest PUA forums, read David Deangelo who has made millions on his material and is I think the most sold PUA teacher with the exception of Mystery, read Juggler, read Carloz Xuma, read Zan, read James Marshall, read 60 years challenge, read the fastseduction archives of Nashville player, Franco, TVA-Oslo, Hitori, Illuminatus, Arron Sleazy and more. These are all highly influential PUAs, several of which pre date the publication of the Game. They do not advocate being an asshole or being not nice they just advocate being dominant. And what being dominant means according to them might be different from what you think and varies quite a lot in between them because there are so many different styles.

  • Courtley

    @Emily
    “Myself, Saywhaat, Jackie, and many religious girls that I’ve known have all been rejected for being too chaste.”

    By whom? Are you looking for dating partners in religious environments that reflect your beliefs? If you’re not, then yes, you are going to weird many dudes out. But within the social circles of conservative evangelicalism, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, orthodox Judaism and others, you should be able to find guys who hold to similar convictions about sex, and indeed, who find it completely normal for an unmarried 20something woman to be a virgin.

  • Just1X

    @Andrew
    no…I have never (well…since the red pill) been of the opinion that men and women are exactly the same. before the red pill? well there was some cognitive dissonance caused by believing feminist claptrap. I can’t believe how long it took me to believe my real world experiences over the indoctrination.

    nice to ‘meet’ you

  • Courtley

    @Wadung

    I’m just saying that lots of men can pull off being ‘sufficiently dominant’ without a lot of “red pill” theoretical knowledge, which you seem to agree with, I think. Most men default to this naturally in their relationships. Guys that have a hard time doing so may benefit from some level of “red pill,” but I have concerns with how “red pill” theories are interpreted by at least some percentage of said guys. Not so much that they, themselves, successfully become assholes, but that they come to believe this is what all women secretly/truly desire, and I think that is a false and demoralizing view of women.

  • Emily

    Andrew,

    This is one case where I’ll admit to being an extreme outlier.

    I was raised with the idea that I should save myself for marriage, and then I’d marry a guy who was saving himself for marriage and that it would be all wonderful. (Religious upbringing.) I actually felt extremely ripped off when I realized that I probably *wouldn’t* be marrying a male virgin, unless I were to marry a guy who’s involuntarily celibate, in which case I’d probably have to compromise on many other traits. Sure Tim Tebow types exist, but they’re pretty much unicorns.

    Like I said though, I’m almost certainly an outlier on this issue. I also suspect that in general, a virgin girl is less likely to have a problem with a virgin guy.

  • Emily

    Courtley,

    The problem is that most religious groups have WAAAAY more girls than guys. I’ve also noticed that most of my Catholic guy friends tend to date non-Catholic girls. I’ve asked a couple of them about this trend, and they were both like “yeah, it’s about the sex thing.”

  • Just1X

    @Emily
    there are ‘other bloggers’ out there that point out the different experience men and women get from church.

    women; you are god’s special princesses
    men; you are sexually deviant animals

    just compare mother’s day praisefests and father’s day shamerants…

    and ‘you’ wonder why men wander away from the church?

  • Courtley

    @Emily
    “The problem is that most religious groups have WAAAAY more girls than guys.”

    Yeah, this is very often true. But not always. Scout around some of the trendier Christian churches in your city, ones with good bands and a younger pastor, and I think you’d be surprised at how many guys show up to places like this.

  • Sai

    232 -Andrew

    As long as your teeth aren’t gold-plated and your pants fit properly -and you came right out and said you are a looker -you are automatically so much better than what I’ve lived around. I’d have no problem with you, virgin or not. Maybe you did it for Jesus, maybe you did it for health reasons, maybe you haven’t met anyone you want to see you naked. You made and are continuing to make that decision with a sound mind and I respect that.

    (And that’s a very fair warning about sexless marriages, but some of us are very excited for the wedding night, haha! I guess you have to find a tactful way to talk about that along with other important things like faith, household location, number of kids, etc. so you know your odds of being frustrated are low.)

  • Courtley

    @JustiX

    There’s lots of reasons why men leave religion, and I think the way churches handle sexuality is a huge one. But I know lots of women–myself included–who were turned off by the misogyny inherent in a lot of more conservative church circles, too. It’s not always “God’s special princess” (though that is far too common and entirely cringeworthy and patronizingly sexist in its own way). There’s plenty of shaming of women for being too tempting and not modest enough and “causing the brothers to stumble.”

    Religion can be an effective way to keep certain sexual standards in place and create communities where people bypass a lot of the issues of the current SMP and find partners and are happy. Many of my friends are evangelicals of some sort and got married in their early 20s as virgins and seem to have pretty good marriages and sex lives. But we weren’t from the most extreme circles–you have to be careful to avoid the too-conservative communities that use guilt and shame as the main means of keeping everyone chaste.

    I have mixed feelings on religion, basically, but that is perhaps irrelevant here. It is fascinating to me, though, to see how close certain Manosphere views on sexuality and women are to ones found in conservative religious circles. It’s like traditional religious values without the religion. They want to bring back the traditional values while discarding the one thing (religion) that actually was responsible for entrenching them in society in the first place.

  • Emily

    Just1X (239),

    FWIW, I agree with you completely. I can’t stand the overly girly “let’s-talk-about-our-feelings” brand of Christianity myself, so I can’t even imagine how awful it must be for the guys. I don’t think anybody really benefits from the current status quo.

    Courtley (240),

    Don’t worry, I have a bf. He’s an atheist, but he’s from a Catholic family. But finding him was seriously an uphill battle!

  • Sai

    #239 -Just1X

    What denomination are you? I believe you, but where I am it’s like:

    Men: you are godly decision-making leaders, go out and do stuff!
    Women: it’s a man’s world, he is the hero and you are back-up, God commands that you fix a sandwich

    I like sandwiches, but I went through a period where I felt God didn’t like women. Could it be a regional thing? (I’m in the South)

  • Wudang

    Courtely, I disagree most men tend to be sufficiently dominant in relationships today. Look at movies of guys in the fifties and compare them to men today. It`s like night and day. Testosterone is down by 50% in the last 50 years. Men have a strong pull to betaize themselves in marriage to a large degree. Some naturally take on a leading role some need to be taught and today, most having been taught the opposite and ALL cultural influences working in the opposite direction there is no way men are taking an appropriate role in relationships.

    Women usually have no clue what they actually want in a man, especially today. Of the women in the relationships turned around by men following Athols advice I am certain virtually none of them would have been able to describe anything remotely resembling what they actually ended up responding well to. The many women who have now found the site, agree with the ideas and wants their husbands to learn almost never understood any of this about themselves until they found Athols site.

    You also need to take account of the fact that women change their dominance requirements according to their SMV. The prettier she is the higher her dominance requirement on average will be. An average girl will often feel uncomfortable with a man as dominant as is required by a 10. The underlying reason is that he is perceived to be unlikely to stay with her by a middling woman while a hotter woman believes her looks are sufficient to keep him around. She might think like this explicitly but it is more likely she has unconsciously adapted her preferences according to reality.

    A study found exactly this pattern with most women rejecting the highest testosterone men while the very hottest actively desired them and the scientists theorized this was because they thought their looks was sufficient to keep them around even though they had weaker natural pair bonding genes because of very high T.

    As men we like to know what is THE most attractive man to women as in what is acquired to get a 10. Not that many us will realistically aspire to get one or are willing to put in the work to be that man but we would at least like to know. When many men talk about what women really want they refer to what the women with the greatest options choose. And, those men are usually very dominant although they can also be VERY good looking greater betas with status as in this SMP too many high dominance men are busy with casual sex so less are available than they would like.

    • @Wudang

      A study found exactly this pattern with most women rejecting the highest testosterone men while the very hottest actively desired them and the scientists theorized this was because they thought their looks was sufficient to keep them around even though they had weaker natural pair bonding genes because of very high T.

      Any chance of a link? I’d be interested to see that.

  • Herb

    @Richard

    Ref golddiggers: Couple of years ago, on some relationship site, one woman said, “Coffee? Hell no. It had better be a good martini”. Another said, “Don’t think I’m impressed with a chain restaurant where I already know the menu.”
    With the latter case, I suppose a chain restaurant shows a slight lack of imagination. OTOH, maybe the guy’s not a gourmet in the first place and it’s company he’s after, not food. A steak is a steak.
    Point is, such women are advertising the price for their company without explaining the value-added first.

    I’ve generally found that women who advertise a price without advertising the value add thing they, in and of themselves, are the value add and generally aren’t.

    Another thing I’ve noticed is that a higher proportion of single women act this way as they age. I’m not sure if it’s a case of more of the ones who aren’t like that aren’t single or if women age and get bitchy. I’ll ascribe to either depending on the day of the week.

    I think this is heavily related to the fact that no one thinks women should foot the whole bill. Women in western culture are taught to have a princess complex and it seems a larger and larger number do. This is important.

    What the ‘sphere misses is most of this is all at the margin. Susan usually gets that but often thinks because it is at the margin (alpha chasing, carousal riding, hooking up) it’s unimportant or we should at least keep it in proportion.

    The problem is changes at the margin that remain uncorrected add up over time. A one second one Netwon push is less effective than a .01 Newton push over two minutes. Also, we’re much less likely to notice the latter until it’s too late.

    In an age where educated women under 30 make more than their male counterparts, when women are pretty much 6:4 in college, and where grrl power is the celebrated rule and men better shut the hell up about it that half of women think they should go dutch while half expect men to pay isn’t progress.

    It’s princessing…big time.

  • Courtley

    @Wadung

    I mean “sufficiently” in terms of, it’s enough to keep their relationship stable and together, not that they had achieved Ultimate Romantic Happiness. (Again, the word ‘sufficient’ means ‘just enough.’) As I said earlier (maybe not to you, though) satisfaction in relationships is harder to quantify than how many people are staying together. It’s another conversation entirely.

    You’re entitled to your opinions on how you’d like to see relationships work. For me, on a personal level, as a straight woman, I prefer men of today to the 1950s model, no contest.

    And you actually explain WHY very well, I think, and seem to admit something the Manosphere sort of has a hard time owning up to:

    “You also need to take account of the fact that women change their dominance requirements according to their SMV. The prettier she is the higher her dominance requirement on average will be. An average girl will often feel uncomfortable with a man as dominant as is required by a 10. The underlying reason is that he is perceived to be unlikely to stay with her by a middling woman while a hotter woman believes her looks are sufficient to keep him around. She might think like this explicitly but it is more likely she has unconsciously adapted her preferences according to reality.”

    Yes. Although I think there’s quite a few very objectively beautiful (7+) but still shyer, low-dominance women out there, and less attractive ones that still like a lot of dominance–but I think your assessment is fair if we’re talking about the majority. When men in the Manosphere bitch about “women,” they’re bitching about the preferences of the hottest 10%, but claim that what the top-10% requires is true for alllllll women. As someone who’s not in the top 10% and doesn’t require that level of dominance and actually finds it a turnoff, I am rather peeved at being lumped in with those girls, for obvious reasons.

    @Emily
    Ah, I see, well congrats. 😀 You know, it’s funny, but as an atheist/agnostic from an evangelical Christian family and background myself, I often think my perfect match would be . . . an atheist from a Christian or similar religious background. I suppose that sounds rather narcissistic, but I think I’d make a hell of a lot more sense to someone from a similar background. Sorry to hear he was so hard to find! Where do you live/where did you meet him?

  • Abbot

    “Tim Tebow types exist, but they’re pretty much unicorns.”

    Tebows will propagate exponentially when, and only when, women respectfully reinforce the gate lock and disable master-key holders

  • Just1X

    @a couple of people

    I don’t do god at all and never have*, I was referring to ‘The dread blogger D” (da-da-dahhhhh). (to me, FWIW) he’s quite authoritative on religion vs the church.

    * CofE in the UK, extremely nominally. So I kind of loosely share moral values, but not the god-thang.

    “It is fascinating to me, though, to see how close certain Manosphere views on sexuality and women are to ones found in conservative religious circles. It’s like traditional religious values without the religion. They want to bring back the traditional values while discarding the one thing (religion) that actually was responsible for entrenching them in society in the first place.”

    I’d be careful that you aren’t misattributing some of the talk about low-N to religion. It ain’t necessarily so, there are evo-psych arguments and also biochemical ones too, as well as just attitudes I have/see (with/without evo-psych).

  • Emily

    Courtley,

    I’m in the UK, and I met him through my social circle. But during my “Forever Alone” years, I was living on the North American west coast.

    Given the overall man shortage in churches today, I think that non-religious guys from religious backgrounds are the next best thing. Ideally it’s best to find somebody with the same belief system. But even a guy who’s left the church will still have a decent understanding of the culture and be more sympathetic towards it. At least that’s my experience. IMO it’s more important to find somebody who has good character and who is compatible.

  • Emily

    >> “Tebows will propagate exponentially when, and only when, women respectfully reinforce the gate lock and disable master-key holders”

    Unfortunately you’re not going to get the mass Lysistrata movement that you’re hoping for. The genie’s out of the bottle, and there will always be sluts. And because of that, the women who DO “reinforce the gate lock and disable master-key holders” often end up losing out.

  • Abbot

    “you’re not going to get the mass Lysistrata movement that you’re hoping for. The genie’s out of the bottle”

    There was never any genie in a bottle and that is abundantly evident after a five hour plane ride to the vast region south of Mexico. The so-called genie is a culturally derived euphemism to describe women who relentlessly blow their bodies and with it the dignity as seen from the gaze of men…

  • Andrew

    @just1x

    Nice to meet you too.
    “no…I have never (well…since the red pill) been of the opinion that men and women are exactly the same.”

    Why do you think so? Do you think that women see that as an opportunity to be with that kind of person for a potential LTR or just for another notch on the belt?

    @Sai
    I guess I made it obvious that I am a virgin, huh? I’m glad I passed your checklist of no gold teeth and loose pants, lol. I definitely didn’t do it for religious reasons, which is funny because I’m a buddhist and atheist (I born and raised in a Christian household). The only reason why I’m still a virgin is because of reasons similar to the user ‘Emily’ on here said in response to my comment minus waiting til marriage and marrying a guy, lol. All I cared about was falling in love with a woman and being with her for the rest of my life. I do believe in the concept of a soul mate and giving my heart and soul to a woman and vice versa. I think my odds are not just low, but extremely low and it’s not just only because I’m a virgin. I think my ethnicity, geographic location, choice of lifestyle, and probably religion factor into my odds too.

  • Underdog

    I don’t care much for virgins when it comes to LTR. Marriage, on the other hand, requires a different standard. If she’s going to be the first person I give a ring and devote my entire life to, then I better be the first person to get in that vadge.

  • Escoffier

    Crazy how fast the world changes, in super-lib NorCal only 20 years ago, plenty of college couples ended up married, I even know some HS sweethearts who got married!

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Emily
    “you’re not going to get the mass Lysistrata movement that you’re hoping for. The genie’s out of the bottle”

    The course of history is long. Who knows what will be happening in 20, 50, 100 years?

  • Emily

    >> “The course of history is long. Who knows what will be happening in 20, 50, 100 years?”

    That’s very true. Although a Lysistrata movement 20 years from now isn’t going to do much good for today’s singletons. : P

    I do think that, as marriage becomes rarer and rarer, the next generation of UMC families is going to be more traditional/conservative. This is purely speculative, but I think people with that kind of mindset will be the ones who generally end up doing the marriage/baby thing.

  • Just1X

    @Andrew
    “Why do you think so? Do you think that women see that as an opportunity to be with that kind of person for a potential LTR or just for another notch on the belt?”

    1) Religiously, male virgin is good. (I heard rumours to that effect). I would expect that to indicate higher LTR potential (and remember that I am an atheist)

    2) From what I’ve seen around and about, men’s ability to bond with a woman is not considered to be as diminished by lots of partners as women’s ability is. A biochemical thing (take it, or leave it as anecdote).

    So, being low-N for a man is less important biochemically.

    3) N > 0 for a man indicates that ‘someone else’ thought that he was breeding potential (theoretically, given the pill exists).

    So, I’d see being a male virgin as a mixed bag. For a religious woman looking for marriage – cool. otherwise, meh

    It all comes down to understanding that men are not the same as women *gasp*. 2 & 3 don’t apply to women in quite the same way.

    2) Women’s ability to bond is seen to be decreased by each N. (bio chemical argument – take it or leave it, or google it).

    3) Being able to find a sex partner is not much of a validation of women – it’s generally speaking easy for them. So looking to raise their notch count probably isn’t a widespread thing for average women.

  • Sai

    #254 -Andrew
    I hope you find somebody somehow. The world is a huge place, so if only from sheer numbers there should be a girl who would love to marry you. The trick is you two finding each other, I guess.

  • Jackie

    @Courtley

    As a religious person who is waiting for marriage– this is probably the only place I even mention it. And even then: anonymously!

    There is just too much weird baggage bound up in this choice to talk about it otherwise. I would like to be seen as a person, not a hymen, thank you very much!
    ========
    “But within the social circles of conservative evangelicalism, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, orthodox Judaism and others, you should be able to find guys who hold to similar convictions about sex, and indeed, who find it completely normal for an unmarried 20something woman to be a virgin.”

    Courtley, in my experience some of the *worst* offenders were those who attended church on Sunday but would pressure me big time on Friday and Saturday. 🙁 Plus I was engaged previously and was continually pressured …. and ended up cheated on.

    So at this point in time, I’d love to believe that even religious men are going to be on the same page, but my experience definitely contradicts this.

    Basically, I believe it will take divine intervention for me to get married. 😉

  • Jackie

    @Just1x

    “women; you are god’s special princesses
    men; you are sexually deviant animals”

    Just1x, you are an atheist, right? Where are you getting this?

    Because I *have* seen this attitude. Mostly in hardcore evangelical churches, where the girls consider themselves “daughters of the King” and there is a lot of princess-y behavior.

    But in my experience (Catholicism), guilt and shame are equal-opportunity, all the way! Confessing your sins every week (or even just before redletter days of obligation) will do that to a person! Plus, there is supposed to be fasting and giving up stuff like meat on Fridays during Lent. PLUS, there will always be a focus on donating $/stuff for the less fortunate, and a big emphasis on “works” and not just “faith” –which is one of Evangelicals’ many contentions with Catholicism.

    ( And I should mention my parents always took us to more “liberal” parishes. 😉 )

    So the princess quotient was low, in my experience! Plus, women can never rise as high as men– the most they can do is become a Nun. Whereas there will be female “prophetesses” and ministers in Evangelical denominations.

  • Emily

    Underdog (255),

    How common is it for guys to into LTRs with girls who they have no intention of marrying? (I’d love to hear from the other guys on this as well!)

  • Jackie

    @Andrew

    “All I cared about was falling in love with a woman and being with her for the rest of my life. I do believe in the concept of a soul mate and giving my heart and soul to a woman and vice versa.”
    =========
    Andrew, you sound really awesome! You should consider yourself a rare prize. Our society sends a really toxic message, in my opinion, that a guy who chooses to wait is somehow a loser in his parents’ basement.

    Personally, I would be impressed beyond measure to meet a man of such high standard and integrity. Actually, I would feel a little intimidated by the strength it takes to go against the grain. 🙂

    Men like FFY I can laugh at but someone who has behaved like you, the only option is complete respect.

  • Jackie

    @Underdog, Emily

    I am with Miss Emily– Underdog, tell me more!

  • Desiderius

    “THIS! This is the point I’m getting at, and what I think Susan should put some real focus on preventing by making sure the women in group 3 KNOW the real scoop, KNOW how those choices can change their future, and KNOW that at least some men really DO care about sexual discretion. ”

    Putting it in terms of what men want:

    (a) won’t work

    (b) is beside the point

    Look, I don’t follow my male base instincts (i.e. to fuck every hot young thing in sight). It’s not because I think I can’t get away with it (increasingly, I could the way things are going) or because I’m afraid the perfect future wife would disapprove (again, depending, these days my demonstrated ability to spread my seed would be just as likely to turn her on), it’s because that’s not the kind of man I want to be and the society that behavior produces is not one I want to live in.

    Form follows function (if it doesn’t, that’s where ugliness comes from). The function of sex is to produce children. Feral sexuality sucks for kids, given the alternatives. That’s why this SMP feels ugly.

    The solution is to make women aware of their base instincts, where they come from, and what better alternatives exist. Not better for men, better for her, her children, and her civilization.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie – ‘Dread Blogger D’… ’nuff said

    @Emily
    I’m not sure that I’m the market that you’re interesting in answers from (divorced, 40’s), BUT(!) it might be worth asking what does marriage do for you, versus what it does for a man? Marriage for a man is basically more legal liabilities and precious few benefits. Taking the romanticism out of the issue (as men are wont to do), what’s in it for men?

    (I’m off for the gorgeous evening – blue sky, few small clouds – as good as it gets in the UK today – see ya)

  • Desiderius

    “Tebows will propagate exponentially when, and only when, women respectfully reinforce the gate lock and disable master-key holders”

    Oh, bullshit. We already have a lot of Tebows.

    Most women with options view them as chumps. They’re not entirely mistaken.

  • Just1X

    Hell on earth – I agree with Desi…I’m off for a drink and a lay down in a dark room

  • Just1X

    I meant #269 ttfn

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “AskMen is an online men’s lifestyle site whose mission is ‘helping guys become better men.'”

    Interesting comparison in the websites. Could you imagine PopSugar having a mission at all, let alone “helping girls become better women”?

    The fact that this is what young women are reading (Cosmo is the most popular product in college bookstores) should tell us something. We have a generation of women we’ve neglected to “raise,” evidently having convinced ourselves they were just fine on that pedestal we placed them on. Notice we have no such compunction with boys/men.

    We’re all pedastalizers now. All done with the best of intentions, but we have a mess on our hands.

    I think the women sense something of this reality, which is why they respond so powerfully to those with the temerity to judge them/not kiss their asses.

  • Guest

    Anyone else notice some options were left out of the answers? Or that some of the questions and answers were very leading.

    Take “Who should pay on a date?”
    They only give the option for both & him. – No option for girls who pay for dates? or do we just assume no girls pay for dates ever?

    In the past they also asked questions that no longer show up such as “have you cheated on your partner?” I still remember the 2 years that question showed that more girls **had** cheated on their partners while more men wanted to cheat on their partner if they could get away with it, but didn’t.

    You look further at the question “Which female in your family was born at a time that offered the best opportunities for a happy life?” – the highest answer was “me – 41%”. “ME” covers all generations and all ages and effectively tells you nothing.

    Sorry to say but these stats mean less and less every year that they continue, now they’re just hiding/leading and warping parts to get specific answers.

  • Jackie

    @Just1X
    “Taking the romanticism out of the issue (as men are wont to do), what’s in it for men?”

    Just1x has already left the building, but if this is true, why does so much research say that the quality of life for married men goes up?

    (And actually, single women have a higher quality of life than married women with kids!)

  • Jackie

    @Desiderus

    Des, are you a practicing Christian?

  • Joe

    Maybe it’s time to go easier on the virgins.

    It dawns on me that there really is no such thing as an involuntary virgin. At some point, sooner or later, an adult makes decisions about sex in an adult way, and from that point on being a virgin is absolutely voluntary. It’s often that this is best for that person’s mental make-up, right?

    As for the so-called involuntary virgins, I have a feeling that “striking out” only means that someone hasn’t taken the time to find out what it takes to reach someone, or is reluctant to learn how to begin the process. (And isn’t that what Game really is? A way to start the process?).

    I don’t think people are actually repelled by virgins (as SayWhaat said above in 217). Sometimes a virgin is rejected because the other person doesn’t want to wait, which is a simple lack of patience. Sometimes the virgin is rejecting because of fear or even immaturity.

    Frustrating as virginity may be, if the reasons are impatience or fear or immaturity, time will cure it. It’s not really so bad as we’re making out. If the reasons are more profound, well, time heals that, too.

  • Desiderius

    “Yes, I believe it is a necessary institution and one in which I will participate to help preserve:

    Men 70%, Women 44%*”

    PopSugar isn’t exactly a representative sample, but:

    (a) this fits with my lived experience with young (18-28) women, both UMC and MMC, although it manifests itself in different ways depending on social status. NAWALT, but, crucially, they’re not the ones setting the cultural norms.

    (b) given what we know of the reading habits of high status women, the way in which it is non-representative may mean things are worse than they seem, not better. PopSugar is more SWPL than white trash.

    For female supremacists, hard and soft, hypergamy (and worse) is non-negotiable. As the institution of marriage can make hypergamy awkward, if lucrative, it has come under increasing attack/neglect. Not the only institution in this boat.

    What has been (conveniently*) forgotten is what marriage is for in the first place. It was instituted to allow a woman to fully leverage her sexual power to maximize the value of her mate, while also allowing her to find a mate of similar age for enhanced compatibility/child-raising energy.

    As a woman’s peak SMV is in her early twenties, while a man’s is in his 30’s, maximizing her value would otherwise take pairing with a much older man (this is what things in this feral environment are gravitating toward as a best available solution, much to the consternation of Susan’s generation).

    Marriage allowed her to trade her present value for her husband’s future value, while enjoying a mate her age.

    This is why its always naturally been assumed that its women who are most interested in marriage. This is no longer the case.

    *- the thing that changed is that women now believe they can get an even better deal by getting her high value man both right away in her early twenties, and then a high value man in her thirties.

    Delaying gratification is so…. traditional. Too bad no one thought to tell them it was a liberal tradition. Produced a lot of progress too.

    “Good” girls sense that this whole thing is vaguely shady, so they instead save themselves for the high value man in her thirties, with tragic, if predictable, consequences.

  • Desiderius

    “Des, are you a practicing Christian?”

    Nearing perfection.

  • Underdog

    @Emily and Jackie

    I honestly have no idea how common it is. Most of my friends are betas to follow the dating, LTR, marriage route. Back in college, a roommate of mine dated a very hot girl for almost a year knowing he would never get any more serious with her (not sure if the girl knew). He was a high status frat boy, though.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Read of a college senior virgin. Actually, she’d had a bad experience in high school and been a virgin ever since. Saving herself, so to speak, for marriage and serious about it.
    Met a potential alpha. Which is to say, their situation was such that alpha traits besides size and ruggedness were not in evidence. A classroom. But she ran into him–literally–coming around a corner in the building and has been involuntarily hothothot for him since. Does not want to date him, fears he’s fixing to ask her out, because she’s more than half way to “yes” as to sex already.
    Otherwise, she thinks, besides being hothothot for him, that such other characteristics as she has seen are pretty neat, too.
    A conundrum.

    Asking again. Where did blue pill come from? Whose idea was it? Who benefits? Who kept it going? Why? If it’s so obviously bogus, then there needs to have been some energy devoted to keeping it going, as its connection to reality was insufficient to maintain momentum.

    Churches: A feminist Presbyterian pastor several years ago sermonized on Father’s Day about what abusive animals fathers are and how they need to be shamed and get their act together and admit their crimes and so forth. Read it once. Seems to have disappeared from the web.

  • Desiderius

    Just,

    “Out of all the girls on campus, 60% of men go after the top 10% of girls. Those girls will be more likely to use you, reject you and treat you badly because they can and because their is often nothing that differentiates you from all the guys who want to date them. As a woman, I cannot change the before of the top 10 percent of women.”

    Lot of good stuff here. A couple additions.

    There is something you can do: get in that top 10% and start kicking their asses. There are so many women who are uninterested in/clueless about male attraction triggers that it should not be that hard to do. If you start offering a better deal than the bitches; first the men, then the bitches will take notice.

    This goes for men the other way too, and is taken from the last couple years of my personal experience. It took more work as a man, but you can make yourself (much) more attractive in this environment.

    “But I challenge men to try to imagine what it is like to be a woman. I am 19, I am a virgin, but I don’t plan to what till even 25 to have sex. Why? Because sex is awesome, from my personal explorations, I’ve found that I enjoy it and I do have a sex drive.”

    Heh. We’re men. I think we understand sex drives.

    Then again, there are trade-offs in life. I’ve had dry spells, voluntary and involuntary. I lived and often thrived.

    You like the crack-pipe, you live with the consequences. Sex is not an exception.

    “Women in the 1930s and 40s got married at 18 and 19. Today, obviously, most people do not do that. As a woman, am I supposed to wait until my ‘mystery guy on a white horse comes riding over the rainbow at some undisclosed time in the future comes to marry me’ and then have sex?”

    Nice straw man. Not sure where the ultrapassive part comes from.

    I’m at the height (a little past, actually) of my SMV (sexual market value) right now. I’m doing everything I can to invest that value in finding the best marriage partner I can while that power lasts. Lots of active steps.

    You’re at the height of yours as well. Are you doing likewise?

    “No. From 16-24, we girls are horny, we like sex and we want to have it.”

    Sex produces children. When your two-year-old uses this argument on you, will it be effective?

    “There is no reason to delay having sex, unless religion comes into play.”

    Ignorance is not the same as non-existence. BTW, the reasons likely preceded, and in a sense caused, the religion, not the other way around.

    “In fact, religion is partly behind the reason why I’m a virgin right now. Religion entails sacrifice and self-control. It’s no surprise that being religious causes a girl to suppress her baser sex urges…. but not for long and definitively not forever.”

    Religion is about transcendence, not suppression. Can you conceive of nothing higher than the base?

    “But at 20, honestly women think with their pussy and not with their brains. This is not something society can easily change.”

    Luckily, women can do it yourselves without getting society involved. Best get on it.

  • Emily

    >> “BUT(!) it might be worth asking what does marriage do for you, versus what it does for a man? Marriage for a man is basically more legal liabilities and precious few benefits. Taking the romanticism out of the issue (as men are wont to do), what’s in it for men?”

    I think that all depends on who you’re marrying. I plan on trying very hard to be a good wife. Hopefully I can make it worth his while.

  • Rice n Beans

    “(And actually, single women have a higher quality of life than married women with kids!)”

    Is that why married moms are going wild & behaving as if they’re single again?

    http://www.theawl.com/2012/07/the-40-year-old-reversion

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/living/moms-gone-wild/index.html

  • Sai

    #278 -Joe
    Time and/or a passport, haha! Got my German book here…

    #283 -Desiderius
    I actually got my degree already, but how would one join the 10%, or its post-college analog? Everything I did/tried at that time seemed to end up calling attention to features I wasn’t proud of.

  • Sai

    Get this -my brother, who is younger than many posters but somehow knows much more, has proclaimed that you are all full of crap. He figured this out while taking a break from gaming and drawing half-naked chicks to read over my shoulder. I have yet to find out how he discovered your shameful secret, because he won’t read any news, let alone things like this. (Last year I had to explain to him who Uncle Joe was, but I like history more anyway…)

    I love my brother, but watch out for trolls.

  • Lokland

    “I think most guys define ‘slut’ as a woman who has a lot of ONS, or a serial cheater/cuckolder, not a woman who has Ever Had Sex Before. I’d say your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage. If those relationships ended because she cheated, that might do it, but if they ended because they were in high school and went to different colleges or they just discovered they were incompatible life partners or any other sort of non-skeezy reason, again, I think most men can handle this. I think this is why Susan is smart to recommend serial monogamy and advise against hook-ups and cheating, because those are the things that bring out that gut-level revulsion in guys that want to get married, not the fact that you had sex with a couple of steady boyfriends who you cared about.”

    I say Jimmy report this and agree. I’ll toss my agreement in as well.This description sits quite well with me.

    • @Lokland

      “I think most guys define ‘slut’ as a woman who has a lot of ONS, or a serial cheater/cuckolder, not a woman who has Ever Had Sex Before. I’d say your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage.

      This is pretty much where I fall in as well. Not a hard and fast definition, but it rings true.

  • Lokland

    @Emily

    “Myself, Saywhaat, Jackie, and many religious girls that I’ve known have all been rejected for being too chaste. ”

    Just to point out.

    I reject religous girls no questions asked.
    Its not because their chaste but because their religous.

    I don’t do religion. I’m cool with God not the church. (My wife is Spiritual/Taoist. I’m an Atheist.)

  • Lokland

    I would like to ammend my previous statement to reject(ed).

  • Herb

    @Susan

    If the best a man can do is 50/50 why should he bother?

    Personally, if I were a guy I’d like those odds, but this is a matter of personal preference. As I’ve often stated here, I wanted my husband to pay the first time, then I spent the next year paying nearly 100%, due to our different economic circumstances.

    So, a man should be happy that half of the liberated, “I can support myself” women are willing to split the bill while the rest still view him as a wallet?

    Men should always pay for kids, even ones they don’t want.
    Men should pay for dinner (according to half of women).
    We’ve even got feminists fighting for men to support women while their pregnant (pregnimony: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/opinion/time-for-pregnancy-support-alimony.html).

    Women wanted equality…guess what, that means half the check should be standard and either these women need to be just as happy paying it as they are the man paying it all or give up on expecting it from him.

    To broaden the context we get back to my (and a lot of manosphere members) question: what are women bringing to the table besides a vagina.

    From the survey they are actually more likely to be mad at being THIRD than men yet I heard men get more shit for being mad at being 20th than women get for being mad at being third.

    They at best are willing to split the check (you need to invest in their…well, whatever it is they’re bringing).

    My GF is routinely surprised that I’m amazed she treats me like a person. We were in August and she was showing me her HS and college haunts. I noticed a game store (being a big gamer) and she actually said, “You want to stop”. I was amazed and said, “yes” and complimented her on it. She was surprised four days later (because she asked me if I was really that surprised). So, for the most part, they expect if you’re with them to forget all other interests.

    What is it, exactly, the typical woman is offering that makes it okay for them to figure at most they’ll pay half? It best not be sex as a hooker is a surer and better deal.

    • What is it, exactly, the typical woman is offering that makes it okay for them to figure at most they’ll pay half?

      Tradition and biology.

  • Courtley

    @Underdog
    “I don’t care much for virgins when it comes to LTR. Marriage, on the other hand, requires a different standard. If she’s going to be the first person I give a ring and devote my entire life to, then I better be the first person to get in that vadge.”

    Ew. Good luck with that dishonorable double standard and misogynistic attitude. This is exactly the kind of thing that I think rightly pisses off zie scary scary feminists. Trust me, the women who make a conscientious effort to be virgins until marriage generally require the same from their man, since again, it’s very often for religious reasons.

  • Courtley

    @Jackie

    Yeah, there’s hypocrisy among religious people, obviously. But without sounding too smug, I gotta say, as a graduate of an Christian university and a very involved church youth grouper in high school . . . Trust me, there are lots of guys out there super committed to being virgins till they wed. They of course expect the same from their girls and tend to have very high standards when it comes to looks and family background and they also tend to be largely snapped up by age 25. But in the circles I come from they are the norm, and I’ve been close friends of these type of guys, and their girlfriends/wives, to know that they aren’t all hypocrites.

  • Underdog

    @ Courtley

    Different standards. Get it through your head. There’s nothing misogynistic about it. If I’m expected to partake in the archaic institution of marriage, then I expect the woman to uphold her end of that archaic tradition also. Thanks for saying my outlook pisses off feminists, though. I’m barely 26 with a good career. There should be no problem if I wanted to settle down with a virgin.

  • Underdog

    I do want to retract my first sentence of that quote, though.

    “I don’t care much for virgins when it comes to LTR” should have been “I don’t care if she’s a virgin or not when it comes to LTR”

    If the girl is a virgin, then I wouldn’t mind abstinence until I like her enough to marry. If she’s not a virgin then the furthest I’d go is cohabitation. I’d be a fool to accept all the risks of marriage with a regular girl.

  • Herb

    @Courtney

    Ew. Good luck with that dishonorable double standard and misogynistic attitude. This is exactly the kind of thing that I think rightly pisses off zie scary scary feminists.

    Yeah, God forbid we piss off the feminists who have no double standards.

    I mean, we need to apply Title IX to the sciences…except veterinary schools. They want them to remain as they are, I mean 80% female isn’t a problem.

    We need to make sure girls can wear “Boys are stupid throw rocks at them” shirts because they’re just funny, but “Boys are cool” tee shirts are misogynist.

    We expect men to pay for dinner half the time and the other half we’ll split 50/50 but don’t you dare pay us less.

    I could continue, but feminists need to STFU about double standards until their willing to let go of theirs.

  • Wudang

    “Any chance of a link? I’d be interested to see that.”

    I found this:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/Health/Women-more-attracted-to-men-with-feminine-faces/2005/02/13/1108229858700.html

    Not sure if it is exactly the same one I read before because it was years ago. I read the actual research paper then and as far as I can remember the study I read at the time involved tons of different attraction factors and how women differed in desire for them according to how they rated themselves. So, there might be more studies out there about the same thing.

    I think this study shows two things at the same time. It both shows high masculinity, high T, alpha traits being what women ideally want and it shows that women who aren`t amongst the most attractive really do feel a TURN OFF for the most alpha men. It also seems to back the notions that women who rate themselves as not amongst the most attractive really do feel attraction for and probably MORE attraction for more beta faces and so probably also beta personalities. We don`t strictly know from the study how much attraction they feel, just who they will choose, but I believe they also feel more actual attraction. It makes the most sense for nature to wire us to be attracted more to what we can get and not only grudgingly settle for it.

    We also don`t know from reading the article what were the precise attractiveness levels involved but that might be more clear in the actual research paper so look for that when you read it. Did the women who desired the most masculine men rate themselves really, really high or was it just high. We can`t conclude all the women that did not want the high T guys where at all unattractive, they might have been 7-8s amongst those groups while only the 9-10s where willing to gamble on the highest T guys.

    I think a large part of attraction differences towards alpha/beta can be attributed to this. Obviously far from all can be explained by this because there are women like Ana, Jackie and many more who do not like alphas. What their dopamine system and adrenal system looks like I think can be another big part of this. I think risk takers naturally are more attracted to high T men and risk averse people will be more turned off by them for example. Whatever the causes for the variation those other variables will not be distributed in the same way beauty is. You`ll have high risk taking 3s and dopamine craving 4s. Personally I believe from just looking at people on the street that more of good looking women are more excitement seeking and risk accepting in general. They certainly strike me as less careful and timid on average. It would make sense for nature to couple hypergamy inducing genes with beauty genes. Obviously that is far from always the case, but I think it holds partially true.

    By the way, I have been doing a lot of people observing lately inspired by all the studies I have read that show people are very good at guessing stuff about what other people are like just from seeing their faces and by the fact that emotions are very readable through body language. My observation is that there are a lot of people with SMV 1-5 that are absolutely attracted to each other and some very much so. It is just obvious from the body language and the interaction. However, it is clearly less so on average than for more attractive people. Fewer people 1-5 show the body language around their partner as the most attractive people do. Some do. Some seem madly in love and attracted despite both being 3s. But on average their body language and interaction do not reflect being into each other to the same degree. All in all, it seems to me that there is far more real attraction in the 1-5 range than people naturally assume, especially around these parts of the net.

    It makes sense to me that nature would organize things so that there were quite a lot of attraction down the scale as well because the people there need the glue of attraction as well and if there are no real possibility of reaching higher it is more useful to be attracted at your level. It also seems to me that the people I observed that did not look more than moderately attracted still often looked happy together. I think they have modest attraction and great friendship and that is no small thing. I think they are happy with smaller excitement levels because their expectations are lower and their emphasis is more on togetherness. Thats not too bad IMO. That is a pretty good life.

    I have seen some studies that suggest attraction is objectively felt less down the scale. There is the study about women with more symmetrical men having more orgasms for example, and I`ve read some stuff about lower SMV partners investing less in each other etc.

    THe theory of the researchers seems to be that the highly attractive women who go for the high T men are counting on their beauty being enough to keep them around. Lower SMV women worried that these men would cheat and the higher SMV did not worry too much about that. Now I have read that when men fall in love their testosterone goes down 25% or so and their oxytocin levels go up a lot. If they become fathers they get an additional 25% decrease in T. This makes them more functional in relationships and better fathers. I think with the 9-10s these guys get a so much stronger oxytocin increase and stronger T decrease that their behavior becomes less problematic for the woman and they become better fathers. So it is not just about these men being more dopamine attracted to their wives and so check their behaviors because they don`t want to loose their hottie, it is also about the high T guys hormone profile changing. But this only holds for the highest SMV women.

  • Courtley

    @Herb

    You sound like a dude with a serious axe to grind about a long list of things that I doubt have seriously affected you. The fact that you trotted out your ready laundry list of grievances–very, very typical Manosphere behavior in what should be actual debates–says a lot about how personally you seem to take all of this.

    If you want to discuss the double standard of manwhores expecting virgin wives, by all means, feel free to do so, but stay on topic. Isolated incidences involving graphic T-shirts is not really that relevant.

  • Courtley

    @Susan

    Well, I actually wrote that…but a few of the guys seem to agree. I wouldn’t call it a hard and fast definition either, but it’s what I’d surmise based on my male friends’ and relatives’ general outlook and attitudes. I have to say for me personally, it’s also the same general standard I apply to men. I don’t expect a virgin (though I certainly don’t discriminate against virginity for its own sake) but I do expect someone who’s exercised restraint and eschewed hookups for more meaningful sexual relationships. Those are my sexual mores and values, and I want compatibility in that area.

  • Andrew

    @Sai
    I know I have my work cut out when it comes to looking, but at the same time I feel skeptical and discouraged.

    @Jackie
    Thanks Jackie for your respect! It’s too bad that most people can’t appreciate it. I get made fun of for being me, but I don’t care. I find the whole “loser in his parents’ basement” line laughable. I guess our society knows best, don’t they (shaking my head)?
    I find going against the grain easy for me in general (it’s the story of my life) because when it comes to women/girls, I’ve always known what I wanted. But it’s been hard and frustrating to find someone who either meets my standards or someone who doesn’t meet standards, but wants to be with someone like me.

  • Desiderius

    “I’d say your average “non-slutty” 25-year-old woman has probably had 2-4 sexual partners, and as long as those partners were steady monogamous boyfriends, most men are not going to consider that woman a slut unworthy of marriage.”

    This is true, but there needs to be an understanding that the hookup culture was created by women unhappy with the results of locking themselves into serial monogamy (precluding them from exploring their options – on both the SMP and the MMP) in their early twenties.

    Serial monogamy is a suboptimal strategy for young women (compared to, say, the strategies employed by young women in my grandmother’s SMP = commitment requires a ring, with the ring being valued). Both likely beat what we have today, whether it be the cock carousel or celibacy/lesbianism until the mid/late 20’s.

    • This is true, but there needs to be an understanding that the hookup culture was created by women unhappy with the results of locking themselves into serial monogamy (precluding them from exploring their options — on both the SMP and the MMP) in their early twenties.

      That’s not really true. Hookup culture took root when universities abandoned in loco parentis and most college housing went coed. 18 year olds of both sexes went crazy with alcohol and sexual activity increasingly became detached from communication or emotional intimacy.

      It is true that the culture is actively defended by woman who want NSA sex, aka sex-positive feminists.

  • Just a thought

    I would like to address some things men have said about marriage. It’s a common belief in the manosphere that women get more out of marriage than men. Now, in a divorce, I would agree that women are unfairly favored, however I do not see how marriage satisfies a woman’s hypergamous instincts.

    Women generally tend to default to hypergamy, a mating strategy in which they gain investment from the most amount of men for a long amount of time and then move on. Therefore, a woman’s ideal sexual situation is for her to date one man for 3 or 4 years, accept money from him, free gifts, and other things and then move onto another guy.
    A marriage requires a woman to stay with one guy her whole life and not trade up for a better guy. this is why so many marriages are dissolved because a marriage entails sacrifice from a woman and restraint. Some women don’t have that.

    Moreover, in the 50s, or the 60s, maybe men tended to make more than women and the guy would do all the work while the woman sat around at home knitting stockings. However, in this day and age, the woman will probably work too. Therefore, she will be contributing 50% or more to the family house and car, and men are less likely to be taking care for her.

    The only place where men are faulted in marriage is divorce, which is something I think should be changed. I would prefer to see the disappearance of no-fault divorces and spousal support. The whole concept of spousal support is incredibly stupid, IMHO. Why must you subsidize the life of a woman who is no longer tied to you?

    Anyway, what I meant to point out is this, marriage is not intrinsically better for women or men. Marriage requires that men suppress their desire for different women and that women not go around and cheat with a more alpha guy. It is Divorce that is a better deal for women, something that I would like to see change.

    Andrew, I will be brutally honest with you. Outside of religious communities, most women are likely to brand you as a loser because of your lack of a sex life. However, if you are “attractive” as good-looking, successful and so on, women will still come to you , but beware, some women are predatory and will consider you as “cute” and try to take your virginity and then dump you if you are being clingy.
    From what I’ve seen from observing relationships, I’d say you shouldn’t tell a girl on the first date, the second date or even the third about being a virgin. Give her time to know you first. Then, depending on the type of women you may tell her you are a virgin.
    Some women will respect you for it and like you more. The one’s who don’t…. DQ them.

    Oh, and I don’t know what religion calls women “God’s special princesses” but um, I don’t subscribe to that branch of Christianity. In my church, girl s are told to be submissive onto their husband, the male church authorities have all the power, as a woman I dare not even go into the altar. Many of the guys about my age, in the church, think it’s perfectly okay to slap a woman, as I have been witness too, if she doesn’t do what you wish. I feel resentment just thinking about it. I wish I was one of “God’s little princesses” . I feel like “God’s little serf”.

  • Desiderius

    “Anyway, what I meant to point out is this, marriage is not intrinsically better for women or men. Marriage requires that men suppress their desire for different women and that women not go around and cheat with a more alpha guy.”

    Exactly.

    It does feel like a raw deal for a young woman with weak future-time-orientation because she starts out with a man of lower SMV (the deal is he has to stick with her when the SMV’s switch, which is why the divorce laws are so punitive = fear of men welshing on the deal).

  • Desiderius

    The female virgins being rejected by men for their virginity are likely screening out the men who would appreciate it. This is not an accusation or even a criticism – I just think its a problem of awareness.

    The abandonment of the “everyone gets to reproduce” social contract has led women to screen first and foremost for the ability to produce sexy sons before anything else is considered. This is happening on such an instinctive level that there may be nothing to be done*, but a man who shows signs of inexperience with women (even if that inexperience is due to values similar to the ones that led these women themselves to preserve their virginity) will be eliminated from consideration even by those women before he gets an opportunity to demonstrate any other value he could bring to a potential marriage.

    This dynamic may be affecting these women themselves in the other direction, but due to biology it is a much more serious problem for men.

    * – other than men having to get that experience by hook or by crook, even the men who would make the best husbands and fathers.

  • Desiderius

    That Washington Post article is gold.

    Hope Susan does a post on it.

  • Desiderius

    “In my church, girl s are told to be submissive onto their husband, the male church authorities have all the power, as a woman I dare not even go into the altar.”

    This is a regional/cultural/class thing, not a religious thing.

    We UMC midwestern Presbyterians have proudly expurgated the word “Father” from our liturgy and I just enjoyed an awesome sermon from our female pastor this morning, followed by a nice (group) dinner at her house. Her dog is named Frodo. What’s not to like?

  • I think a large part of attraction differences towards alpha/beta can be attributed to this. Obviously far from all can be explained by this because there are women like Ana, Jackie and many more who do not like alphas.

    Well I wouldn’t call myself nothing higher than a 7 in the peak of my fertility so I would probably fall into your first idea. I do think I gained a point or two in USA for being “exotic” and for being slim, though which serves me well to keep hubby interested if manosphere is to be believed I’m the youngst of the wives/girlfriends of our intimate circle of friends. Now I just need to be rich too 😀

    By the way, I have been doing a lot of people observing lately inspired by all the studies I have read that show people are very good at guessing stuff about what other people are like just from seeing their faces and by the fact that emotions are very readable through body language.

    Voyeurist :p

    All in all, it seems to me that there is far more real attraction in the 1-5 range than people naturally assume, especially around these parts of the net.

    I think one of the issues with manosphere is assuming that one size fits the all. When in reality many guys have to work with a lot of variables, and mating is a basic instinct. I remember a joke about a guy that is hit on by a woman he finds ugly but once she shows interest he starts to find things about her that are pretty enough to pass the boner test “Her nails are pretty…” , so for every man that won’t touch certain women with a tent foot pole some will slay a dragon for her. The trick is to find him in the right moment and place for her to be that woman for him, not an easy trick but not impossible either.

    I think they are happy with smaller excitement levels because their expectations are lower and their emphasis is more on togetherness.

    Is probably sexual selection at work as proven before attractive people can get away with more things than less attractive ones so of course it makes sense that people that can’t get away with stuff are not attracted to it in the first place.

    Very good observations, BTW 🙂

  • Courtley

    @Desiderius
    “This is true, but there needs to be an understanding that the hookup culture was created by women unhappy with the results of locking themselves into serial monogamy (precluding them from exploring their options – on both the SMP and the MMP) in their early twenties.”

    Yes . . . and? I said nothing to contradict this. I understand this is kind of The Big Point a lot of you guys want to keep re-iterating, and trust me . . . We Get It.

  • Abbot

    “the hookup culture was created by women”

    Gosh, that “creation” must have been a heck of a CHALLENGE for women. “Hey Sue, lets create something that stimulates our nads whenever we say “go”, poses no effort required on our part and can be couched as “expression” and “exploration” and as a “culture” to minimize appearing as cheap worthless self-respectless tramps who will be seen as unworthy of a man’s dedication years from now”

  • Abbot

    “It is true that the culture is actively defended by woman who want NSA sex, aka sex-positive feminists.”

    And silently defended by the small group of always-willing snickering men who are outnumbered and NSA-serviced by these women

  • Abbot

    “Hookup culture took root when universities abandoned in loco parentis and most college housing went coed. 18 year olds of both sexes went crazy with alcohol and sexual activity increasingly became detached from communication or emotional intimacy.”

    And a decade or so after witnessing this harem or participating in it, how do these men view women and how do these women view men from a socio-sexual point of view? Especially the viewpoint of men who were mainly witnesses

  • Ted D

    Susan – “It seems a stretch to conclude that hypergamy or financial reward are factors.”

    So a woman MUST cheat in order for her hypergamy to be the cause? I don’t buy this. I can easily see a woman leaving first and THEN looking to satisfy her hypergamy, provided she knows she will get a good deal from the family court when she leaves her husband. If she gets the house, the kids, and support, she can wing it for awhile while she tries her luck on the open market again.

    • @Ted D

      So a woman MUST cheat in order for her hypergamy to be the cause? I don’t buy this. I can easily see a woman leaving first and THEN looking to satisfy her hypergamy, provided she knows she will get a good deal from the family court when she leaves her husband. If she gets the house, the kids, and support, she can wing it for awhile while she tries her luck on the open market again.

      That’s certainly possible, but it’s a bet with rather long odds. A middle-aged woman with children does not make the most alluring potential mate, but I’m sure you’re right that some women deceive themselves in this regard. In general, however, I still think it’s a stretch to say that hypergamy ends many marriages. At least we have no evidence from which to conclude that.

  • Andrew

    @Just a Thought
    You’re the second or third person to tell me about not telling a girl I’m a virgin after an “x” amount of dates.

    -What’s the reasoning behind this?
    -Are women really repelled or grossed out by virgins?
    -Are these women (outside of religious communities) that brand someone like me a “loser” really looking for a LTR or ONS or just unsure?
    -Would they be turned off if I did tell them early on that I am a virgin?
    -If I did decide to implement your strategy later on in the date about my virginity, what “type of women” would be tolerant and respectful? What do you mean by “depending on the type of women?” Who are these people? What character traits would they exhibit for me to know that?

  • Kathy

    Jackie: ” Basically, I believe it will take divine intervention for me to get married.”
    Don’t worry, Jackie, it will happen. Ask Our Lady to send you a good guy..
    Hey! It worked for me.
    I am happily married now for sixteen years. 😀

    And though he was not a practising Catholic when we first married, that all changed after he witnessed the birth of our beautiful daughter. 😉

    God knows what he is doing.
    Continue to put your trust in him (as I know you will.)

    God Bless.

  • Ramble

    My complaint is that men DON’T want to get involved with virgins, and then turn around and complain that there are too many sluts.

    Myself, Saywhaat, Jackie, and many religious girls that I’ve known have all been rejected for being too chaste.

    Emily, it all depends on who is doing the rejecting.

    If some modest girl is being rejected by some Tucker Max, then, that is feature, not bug.

    Also, if some guy is the type to say, “What you are a virgin, we are through!” And then calls the next girl who has an N of 2 a whore, well, again, feature, not bug.

    Lastly, if the guy needs you to have a low number but NOT be a virgin, then, I am not sure what to say. That sorta sucks.

  • Ramble

    Susan, that stat you quote comes from Robert Peterson who was attempting to correct some serious flaws in a 1977 study done by a feminist researcher, Lenore Weitzman. Here is some more info:

    The National Opinion Research Center, a sociological organization affiliated with the University of Chicago, provided Stroup with the data sample he needed to ensure that the study he undertook would avoid Weitzman’s parochialism. Every year, the Center surveys roughly 1,500 adults, creating a national data sample representative of the major socioeconomic segments of American society. Along with Gene Pollock, a professor of economics at the College and an expert statistician, Stroup combined the surveys from the years 1983-1987, creating a cumulative data set of close to 7,500 respondents. Armed with this sizable, national data bank, Stroup and Pollock brought their considerable experience-a combined seven decades of research and teaching-to bear on the question of the economic repercussions of divorce.

    They found that women and men, at every socioeconomic level, experience a decline in income after divorce. According to their data, women in the first year after divorce experience on average a 22 percent decline in family income, with professional women’s family incomes declining the least (12 percent) and unskilled laborers declining the most (30 percent). These figures were far less dramatic than Weitzman’s 73 percent, and comparable to, although still lower than, other studies methodologically similar to Weitzman’s, which suggested an average 30 percent decrease for women.

    When they looked at the status of men, however, Stroup and Pollock uncovered surprising information. “Keeping in mind the suggestion of Weitzman and others of economic gain by males with divorce,” they wrote, “the results are sharply contrary to expectations.” Instead of the 42 percent increase reported by Weitzman or the more common 10 percent figure, the data indicated an average 10 percent decrease in income, with professional men experiencing a decline of 8 percent and less-educated workers a drop of 19 percent. Stroup and Pollock wrote that Weitzman’s “sharp generalization of a 42 percent rise in living standards for males certainly does not hold for our sample.” More importantly, their findings presented an implicit challenge to the studies which reported lower figures than Weitzman but still agreed with the conventional wisdom that men benefit from divorce.

    In the real world, standard of living is determined not simply by a ratio of income to needs, but also by a lifetime of economic choices, earnings, investments, and purchases. An accurate measure of standard of living would necessarily include property owned, savings, houses, furniture, automobiles, the neighborhood one lives in, clothing, and the like, most of which is typically divided between spouses in a divorce settlement. It seems unlikely that the average man would have a 10 percent higher standard of living after losing half of his marital property, much less a 42 percent increase. Pollock points out that Weitzman’s income/needs ratio “omits completely any prior assets that people have. In divorce settlements, so much of the issue is who gets what, and it’s not just alimony or child support but also the division of the other assets. And most of the studies that I’ve read have omitted that part.”

    Warren Farrell, the San Diego-based author of The Myth of Male Power, agrees with Pollock and adds that Weitzman’s and other studies usually omit several expenses which men face. “There are five expenses that men have after divorce, typically speaking, that Weitzman just didn’t measure,” he says. These include: mortgage payments on a home they no longer live in, rent on a home or apartment they do live in, child support payments, alimony, and higher percentages of dating expenses. Says Farrell, “No one that I know has controlled for all five of these variables.”

  • Ted D

    “Lastly, if the guy needs you to have a low number but NOT be a virgin, then, I am not sure what to say. That sorta sucks.”

    I fall into this category LOL. My second LTR mate was a virgin when we met, and I was uncomfortable with it then, and certainly would be now. Mostly I didn’t want to literally hurt her that first time, and I’d heard that often the first time hurts like hell.

    That being said, it was my only issue with her virginity. She was 17 and at least by my opinion pretty hot (she was a cross country runner, so tall and firm!) and I had no suspicion that she was still a virgin. I must have looked horrified when she first told me, because she immediately asked me what was wrong. I just told her that I was concerned about hurting her, to which she replied “well if I’m asking you to hurt me, does it count?” We were together 4.5 years, so her logic won out. 😉

  • Just a thought

    Andrew-
    “What’s the reasoning behind this?
    -Are women really repelled or grossed out by virgins?
    -Are these women (outside of religious communities) that brand someone like me a “loser” really looking for a LTR or ONS or just unsure?
    -Would they be turned off if I did tell them early on that I am a virgin?
    -If I did decide to implement your strategy later on in the date about my virginity, what “type of women” would be tolerant and respectful? What do you mean by “depending on the type of women?” Who are these people? What character traits would they exhibit for me to know that?”

    1. The reasoning behind this is girls shit-test and DQ based on shit-tests. Every girl does this. So if you take a girl out for dinner and on the first-date say “by the way, I’m a virgin”. She might DQ you because of that. On the other hand, if you let the girl fall in love with you, she will stop testing you as much. At that point of you say you are a virgin,if she loves you, she won’t care. I’m saying build the attraction first, then tell her.

    2. Some of us are. We live in a sex-positive society, where we are told that sex is completely natural and should be happening whenever we feel aroused. Men and women are expected to give into their baser urges. Now women who are waiting for marriage are often seen as overly christian, stupid girls. Men are expected to be hypersexual, all the time, any time. For a guy to abstain from sex strikes many women as a signal that something is wrong, or that he’s not even masculine. Now, Andrew, these are not the feelings of every women, but this is what you are up against. I’m not going to lie to you over the internet, there would be no point.
    3. Every woman who goes on a date is looking for at least an LTR. Women generally are always hoping for a long courting boyfriend, gf type deal. Unless they are hooking up with a guy at a party or having a ONS.
    4. Possibly, see #1.
    5.Type of women that would be tolerant/respectful.
    – Christian women
    -Women who are kind, low key and accepting
    -Women exercise restraint.
    – Women that love you.

    The last one is perhaps the most important,if you are dating a girl for two or three months and you tell her you are a virgin and you “lose” her attraction, she never loved in the first place. A woman who loves you will be surprised, probably think about it for a day and then come back to you. So, use your virginity to weed out women who don’t like you that much, i.e. DQ them.

  • Ramble

    I fall into this category LOL. My second LTR mate was a virgin when we met, and I was uncomfortable with it then, and certainly would be now. Mostly I didn’t want to literally hurt her that first time, and I’d heard that often the first time hurts like hell.

    Yeah, this is what I am referring to.
    1. The guy does not want a slut.
    2. She is most definitely not a slut.
    3. He finds out about her non-slutty past and dumps her.

    However, you are still not a great example because that girl got a long term relationship from a guy that did not want to hurt (or pump and dump) her.

    Still, I don’t have any great advice for girls in this situation.

  • @Courtney

    You sound like a dude with a serious axe to grind about a long list of things that I doubt have seriously affected you. The fact that you trotted out your ready laundry list of grievances–very, very typical Manosphere behavior in what should be actual debates–says a lot about how personally you seem to take all of this.

    Ah, yes, the he has a list of complains which I know (magically?) don’t apply to him so we can dismiss him as typical manosphere because I know I’m perfect.

    If you want to discuss the double standard of manwhores expecting virgin wives, by all means, feel free to do so, but stay on topic. Isolated incidences involving graphic T-shirts is not really that relevant.

    Really, because how we treat boys relative to girls at 8 has no effect on their expectations of or views about women at 25. They’re as isolated from each other as the basin of the Caspian Sea is from the watersheds that feed the Black Sea.

    Okay, how about double standards the feminists don’t want to discuss:

    1. Women should earn as much as men but are entitled to life time alimony from marriage (see NOW’s fight against the movement to stop life time alimony in Mass in the past year as unfair to women).
    2. Women are entitled to survivor’s benefits from the pension and Social Security of men they abandon after ten years of marriage (even if the man remarries and has a wife who is actually dependent on them).
    3. Women have the right to define art (as in stuff that is hanging in museums) as offensive to them and make men in the office take it down calendars with art (as in stuff that is hanging in museums) but are entitled to hang up their beefcake calendars.

    Are those specific enough for you? Because except for #1 where I “only” had to pay for half the length of the marriage despite her holding two college degrees (one of which I am still paying for because I got all the debt too) they apply to me.

    When feminists want to address those instead of actively fighting to continue them then I’ll have some thoughts for sluts who are mad that man whores want nothing to do with them.

    Besides, how the fuck are man whores wanting virgins harming you. You can still get all the wonderful men out there that don’t care and are much nicer people by feminists’ own definitions. Why do men who are, by your own thinking, harming only themselves such an issue?

  • @just a thought

    I would like to address some things men have said about marriage. It’s a common belief in the manosphere that women get more out of marriage than men. Now, in a divorce, I would agree that women are unfairly favored, however I do not see how marriage satisfies a woman’s hypergamous instincts.

    Perhaps it’s just a situation of pre-divorce disappointments for both. If a man is married and fails to support his wife he is culturally injured and considered inadequate. If his wife fails to do anything wifely no one bats and eye and if he complains he’s told he’s a misogynist pig.

    This goes back to what does she offer? Susan’s answer is biology and tradition but the modern world has cut off both.

    If I expect her to clean, cook, and raise children I’m a misogynist pig and not acceptable to society: there goes tradition.

    If I expect her to have sex I’m a potential rapist because a husband has no right to demand sex from his wife: there goes biology.

    Women get support and status from marriage, plus a big party. How many magazines with “Groom” in the title. How many shows are there about “Say Yes to the Tux”. The wedding is about the bride. After the wedding it’s supposed to be about the bride too.

    So women get support and status and men get….I’m waiting.

    The only place where men are faulted in marriage is divorce, which is something I think should be changed.

    I call bullshit. Watch even an hour of network or basic cable TV and husbands are a best lovable buffoons who wouldn’t even be able to scratch their ass without their wife’s help

  • Just a thought

    Herb.
    I’m sorry. I’m sorry your wife cheated on you and divorced you. I’m sorry you are still angry at her. I’m sorry that you are paying for her debt and college degrees.
    Now, are you going to apologize for all the men who have ever slapped me? Are you going to apologize for every guy who has ever treated me badly or ignored me in favor of a more attractive girl. Are you going to apologize for every asshole I ever had to deal with?
    No.
    Look, as I have already acknowledged DIVORCE IS UNFAIR TO MEN. It is something I would like to see change. But in order to change the way divorce laws are, men need women to help them. Not every woman is your ex-wife.
    Manwhores harm virgins because virgins are generally saving sex/their first time for someone who really cares about them. Manwhores don’t generally care about the virgins they sleep with. Furthermore, a la Roissy, manwhores are getting tips about how to catch and sleep with virgins. In fact he’s made it into a game of getting “virginity flags” for each country. You don’t see how it would be a problem for virgins if guys are pretending to care about them/want marriage, taking their virginity and then dumping them?

  • “Anyway, what I meant to point out is this, marriage is not intrinsically better for women or men. Marriage requires that men suppress their desire for different women and that women not go around and cheat with a more alpha guy.”

    Exactly.

    Can I ask where this supposed man preference for different women is.

    If we’re talking to look at, yeah, I get that.

    If we’re talking to have sex with, maybe I’m weird but I much prefer one, regular partner to multiples for a variety of reasons ranging from knowledge of each other to a yeeeck factor in performing oral sex if we’re non-exclusive (and I like performing oral sex so it’s a biggie).

    Being faithful to my wife sexually wasn’t hard at all. When she because uninterested in anything beyond me pleasuring her until she was satisfied (and to hell with what I got out of it) I didn’t fool around, I just masturbated in the shower before work.

    Even now in a theoretically open relationship I don’t avail myself of it. Are there attractive women? Sure, and there might be one who is even interesting (my gf calls this woman my SJW crush) but…it just doesn’t appeal as much as seeing my gf.

  • @just a thought

    Now, are you going to apologize for all the men who have ever slapped me? Are you going to apologize for every guy who has ever treated me badly or ignored me in favor of a more attractive girl. Are you going to apologize for every asshole I ever had to deal with?
    No.
    Look, as I have already acknowledged DIVORCE IS UNFAIR TO MEN. It is something I would like to see change. But in order to change the way divorce laws are, men need women to help them.

    Did you even read what I wrote?

    You said marriage provides equally for men and women as each give something up. Your term was sacrifice.

    Sacrifice is giving something up in order to get something better. I give up going out to lunch every day in order to pay off my debt to be debt free. I give up a pleasure today (dining out instead of taking time on Sunday to fix lunch for the week) for a pleasure tomorrow (being able to retire earlier because I could save more instead of paying interest on debt).

    Men and women sacrifice in marriage (according to your scheme) in order to gain something better.

    Modern culture has destroyed (a partner, helpmate, someone to work with to build a life), devalued (sexual access), or made subject to theft (family) what a man sacrifices for. At the same time it has worked to continue to secure for the woman after marriage who she sacrificed for (family, access to the man’s resources).

    That has nothing to do with my wife or how you treated an ex-husband. It has to do with the incentives and trends society has created. Some men have always cheated and been irresponsible and some women have always been shrews and gold diggers but until recently in our culture both were shunned. Now we still shun cheating and irresponsible men while encouraging shrews and gold diggers.

    Men, thus, conclude marriage is a losing proposition at least on the margin. As I said above, a 0.01N force applied over enough time can change the course of anything. For example, Mars on average is 220 million miles from earth but if you can apply an acceleration equal to the surface gravity of Mars in a textbook reversal of direction at the midpoint course Mars is less than a week away. That’s about 1/3 of the gravity here: enough you’d barely notice (and if you did that things were weak).

    That’s what all this is about: at the margin how much thrust are we applying and in what direction.

    Is every women my ex? No. Were more women in my generation than in my father’s? Yes. Are more today than when I got married? All indications are yes.

    You don’t see how it would be a problem for virgins if guys are pretending to care about them/want marriage, taking their virginity and then dumping them?

    I do but I’m of three minds:

    1. It’s wrong.
    2. It’s not my problem given plenty of women are doing worse to men.
    3. You wanted to play like men well now you are so BCWYWF.

    Not every woman is your ex-wife.

  • Cooper

    “-Would they be turned off if I did tell them early on that I am a virgin?”

    Literally, yes. Andrew, I’m in the same boat as you. And 99% of the time telling them is going to have disqualified, quickly. If you still want to tell them after a while, that’s fine, but by then it’ll most likely be mute – so you may as well except that you actually may never cause the chances of finding a girl that appreciates it is unfathomly low.
    I’ve been around here for a little while, and I can tell you there isn’t much advice that you’ll get aside from ‘learn some game.’ So, you might as well brush up on as much manosphere materials as you can, whether you like it or not.
    If Mystery’s quintessential DHV – talking about the quality of women you’ve dated prior – teaches you anything, it’s that women cherish nothing more than a man who has been successful with other women. And there’s nothing that you can do, or say, that will change this – especially confessing virginity.

    The host of this site, Susan, usually will endorse basic Game strategies. According to most Game, you’ll be advised to “fake it till you make it” when it comes to being sexually experienced.

    • The host of this site, Susan, usually will endorse basic Game strategies. According to most Game, you’ll be advised to “fake it till you make it” when it comes to being sexually experienced.

      I would not advise a guy to share his virginity status unless the woman is a virgin as well. I’m assuming something relatively short-term here. For a budding LTR, it may be different.

      I just think the cultural baggage around male virginity is so significant it’s problematic, though the number of virgins of both sexes is increasing, and that may shift over time.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “That’s certainly possible, but it’s a bet with rather long odds. A middle-aged woman with children does not make the most alluring potential mate, but I’m sure you’re right that some women deceive themselves in this regard.”

    Oh no, most of my examples are NOT middle aged women. These are women in their early 30’s, MAYBE mid 30’s at the latest. Most of them that are still married into their 40’s seem to stay that way as far as I can tell. The danger appears to be right when women realize their time is limited, and IF they want a better deal, they better look soon. By the 40’s, I think most women realize their prime time for that kind of move is over, and by then if they divorce it may still be boredom, but I doubt there is much hypergamy involved. Those women may hitch their wagon to another man, but I don’t think most of them divorce hoping to do so. In fact, I think many of them divorce being glad to be rid of the “extra baggage” of having to “take care of” a man at all, or so my experiences tell me.

    Remember, I’m at the age where most of the guys I know married in their mid to late 20’s, at least for the first marriage. They generally married women their age or younger. So most of them had a child or two while their wife was still in her early 30’s. In fact, my ex had two children by the age of 26, which was how old I was when we married. Most of my married (or formerly married) male friends all “got hitched” before they hit 30, again at least for the first time around.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “That’s not really true. Hookup culture took root when universities abandoned in loco parentis and most college housing went coed. 18 year olds of both sexes went crazy with alcohol and sexual activity increasingly became detached from communication or emotional intimacy.”

    I don’t disagree with any of that (we still sort of have in loco parentis, but the parentis are loco = sex pozzy), but it doesn’t contradict what I said. Given the freedom to choose, young women chose to abandon a soured serial monogamy norm that no longer was meeting their needs.

    What followed (group hanging out) was actually an improvement, but broke down under the sex-pozzy pressure and disinformation. Young women are definitely dissatisfied with where things are now and looking for alternatives, but they’re likely to resist a return to the serial monogamy norm that came before and for good reason, to say nothing of young men.

    If you’re going to help them find better alternatives, you need to understand the problems with serial monogamy that caused its abandonment.

    To put it as generously as I can, serial monogamy is a decent option but a lousy norm. If:

    (a) regular sex is non-negotiable (I get the sense that most women who express this preference are merely trying to adhere as best they can to the sex-pozzy norm, but I could be mistaken and there are of course exceptions)

    (b) you’re bound and determined to follow the advice of Susan (and basically every other adult over 30) to put your career before marriage (you’d better be passionate about your career and damn good at if if you plan on beating out competitors benefiting from a good marriage. In this economy, and the changes are structural, not cyclical, the ability to get established at all is far from a certainty).

    (c) you’re sort of iffy on the whole childbearing thing

    (d) you’ve got a guy you’re crazy about

    Then knock yourself out – serial monogamy will likely work for you.

    For most young women, serial monogamy is a lousy deal. This is why my grandmothers required a ring if a man wanted their exclusive attention. At that age, they were excluding a lot more, in terms of both quality and quantity, than their partners. In exchange, they got a promise, enforced by society, that their partner would be exclusive at an age when he was excluding more. That’s what the ring meant.

    Without that promise, its a lousy deal for the woman, and it becomes a lousy deal for the man due to the power imbalance created (he has a lot more to lose if the relationship sours than she does). In addition, she loses the ability to explore her other options, and other men lose the ability to explore their options with her.

    The learning that exploring those options produces is essential for her development, especially the experience of being rejected by potential mates and the learning of what not to do that grows out of that rejection. Due to the power imbalance inherent in these relationships, she’ll rarely get even negative feedback from her boyfriend, let alone rejection. I suspect a lot of the “living together causes divorce” statistics were about the bad habits developed by serial monogamy wreaking havoc on marriages, not about the sex.

    Likewise, due to her inexperience, she’ll often make a poor choice of who to have a relationship with (i.e. Marnie/Charlie), then feel locked in by the “commitment”. The better the girl, the worse the problem. The better the man, the less he’ll be interested in a woman opening to trading up, but a woman in a perpetual relationship can only get with that man if she trades up to him. It just doesn’t work.

    A lot of what the manosphere is about is dealing with the wreckage caused by this system in our early 20’s by men in their 30’s, which is why your young readers feel that so much such men have to say has nothing to do with their lived experience. They’re right, but it does have everything to do with the options they’re considering to replace the hookup culture.

    I think the root of the problem is the insistence on career before marriage. It is no longer optimal or even viable for the average young woman, not to mention society.

  • Desiderius

    “The better the man, the less he’ll be interested in a woman opening to trading up, but a woman in a perpetual relationship can only get with that man if she trades up to him.”

    To clarify, I mean a potential mate that she would be open to dating if she were not with her boyfriend. Many young women who are still following the serial monogamy norm have figured this out and so will keep a steady for the sex while still exploring her other options. This is not exactly an ideal arrangement as preparation for marriage.

  • Ramble

    And Robert Peterson, I believe, was using her data as well, but with corrections. For me, that is not good for that “updated” report. So much is left out, as was reported in the paper that I quoted.

  • Desiderius

    Courtley,

    “Yes . . . and? I said nothing to contradict this. I understand this is kind of The Big Point a lot of you guys want to keep re-iterating, and trust me . . . We Get It.”

    I don’t think you do. With all due respect to the other men here, the points I’m making are quite a bit different, with the probable exception of Escoffier and Jimmy Hendricks.

    I’m not that worried about promiscuity/cock carouselling. That’s much more a problem for men and women in their 30’s to deal with, and I think it takes care of itself if the other stuff is fixed (according to Susan, and I’m inclined to trust her on this, many young women have already figured out the downsides to this behavior and are avoiding it).

    I’m more concerned about what young women (and thus young men) are not doing than what they are. Young women are continuing to screen out good young men to avoid getting locked into something serious before they get their career established. This robs the good young men of the experience they need to be attractive to those women when they’re ready to marry, as well as the support they both need to best establish that career.

  • Tom

    Herb
    If I expect her to clean, cook, and raise children I’m a misogynist pig and not acceptable to society: there goes tradition.

    If I expect her to have sex I’m a potential rapist because a husband has no right to demand sex from his wife: there goes biology.
    ___________

    If she works too, and you still expect her to cook clean and raise the children, then you are an ass…..No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women…

    If you “expect” her to have sex?…Well if you knew what you were doing in the bed room and made sure “every time” she was extremely pleased too, no expectation would be needed, she would willingly have sex with you.
    No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women.

    Most of my buddiers who complain about their wives and the divorce were just like this guy , Herb….Love honor and OBEY…lmaooo.

  • Tom

    Herb, didnt mean you personally, but I meant guys with that particular attitude……There are tons of them, A lot of my friends were like that.

  • Cooper

    “I’m more concerned about what young women (and thus young men) are not doing than what they are. Young women are continuing to screen out good young men to avoid getting locked into something serious before they get their career established. This robs the good young men of the experience they need to be attractive to those women when they’re ready to marry, as well as the support they both need to best establish that career.”

    Wow, Desiderius. You knocked that one outta the park. +1

    I can testify that *some* young people have place marriage to occur after all else, not understanding that marriage doesn’t necessarily have to included prohibiting their goals, and could quite possibly reinforce them.

  • Just a thought

    Desiderius, some of the ideas you posit are pretty interesting. I must say I will mull in those things… also, I’m impressed.

  • INTJ

    @Cooper

    I’ve been around here for a little while, and I can tell you there isn’t much advice that you’ll get aside from ‘learn some game.’ So, you might as well brush up on as much manosphere materials as you can, whether you like it or not.

    This is the most frustrating thing. There are so many strategies that girls can use to navigate the SMP/MMP, but the only advice that Susan or anyone else offers us guys is to learn Game. That or the mainstream advice of “just be yourself”.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Why beat around the bush.

    A male virgin has about an equal chance of achieving solid LTR as a slut with an N over 100.

    Cooper,

    Frankly, this advice will be hypocritical and your actions would mirror those of the slut who lies down but just lie.

    Flat out, straight faced lie.

    Your chances of happiness occuring within a reasonable amount of time will go through the roof.

  • Cooper

    “. I’m assuming something relatively short-term here. For a budding LTR, it may be different.”

    True. But at the same time, I think that the same female-mechanism that sees a virgin male as problematic is also going to dictate that men looking for LTRs as problematic.

    As Just a Thought said:
    “Men are expected to be hypersexual, all the time, any time. For a guy to abstain from sex strikes many women as a signal that something is wrong, or that he’s not even masculine.”

    So, again by Game standards, men should strategically be approaching with stort-term intensions.

    I’m gonna be completely honest, I get the feeling from women (eapecially the young ones I know) that they think it’s far far more likely that a twenty-something guy to ‘have not come out yet’ than to have actually abstain from short-term hookups. Now-a-days a guy is much more likely to be presumed gay, if he isn’t running a carousel, than anything remotely pertaining to masculinity.

    • I’m gonna be completely honest, I get the feeling from women (eapecially the young ones I know) that they think it’s far far more likely that a twenty-something guy to ‘have not come out yet’ than to have actually abstain from short-term hookups. Now-a-days a guy is much more likely to be presumed gay, if he isn’t running a carousel, than anything remotely pertaining to masculinity.

      Ugh! I haven’t heard that before but I confess it fits the culture perfectly.

      I know it sucks to be told just to learn Game. But at least there’s a blueprint you can refer to. You do have the power to change your circumstances. It’s not easy, you’ve got a lot of cultural conditioning to undo. I actually think it’s easier if you’re going for a LTR, assuming you avoid ST women and find the LTR oriented ones. They’re less hypergamous, do less shit testing, and require less dominance. They do not talk about punching each other in the face for saying they hope to marry one day!

  • Cooper

    “This is the most frustrating thing.”

    It sure is. I initially started frequenting HUS because I thought, of all places, that this might be the place to find alternative strategies – ones that unfortunately don’t exist.

    Game can pretty much be broken down to “strictly seek short-term” (aka always maintain low investment) and “value yourself.”

    I think the latter aspect of Game is so undervalued in some cases, that no one can truly rally against it cause how is ‘self improvement’ ever a waste? But I do think that that aspect overshadows the former so much that it let’s some people endorse Game under the impression of supporting self-improvement. When in reality, it says to young men struggling with the SMP (the most direct audience of Game), that their preference for a relationship is the underlining source of the problem. Of course, there’s a whole slew of information behind *why* women won’t find them attractive, but that’s essentially it.
    Women expect men to want sex all the time, any time. And any guy abstaining from that is, well, cause for concern.

    • @Cooper

      Game can pretty much be broken down to “strictly seek short-term” (aka always maintain low investment) and “value yourself.”

      I think the latter aspect of Game is so undervalued in some cases, that no one can truly rally against it cause how is ‘self improvement’ ever a waste? But I do think that that aspect overshadows the former so much that it let’s some people endorse Game under the impression of supporting self-improvement.

      Agreed, which is why we wind up debating whether “strictly short term” success is a victory or a tragedy. It’s one thing to be hard-wired for ST sex, as narcissists and sociopaths are. It’s another thing to attempt to rewire yourself into a zero empathy sexual jackal.

  • Desiderius

    Lokland,

    “A male virgin has about an equal chance of achieving solid LTR as a slut with an N over 100.”

    Oh, get over yourself. Just as it is easy for a savvy woman to get past the “put out by date three” price discrimination problem by showing her affection/value in other ways (in fact her refusal to put out enhances her true value in the eyes of any man worth having, which is why there is “price discrimination” in the first place), so too can a man demonstrate his dominance/experience with women in other ways than a notch count.

    The first step is to call her out on her prejudice against virgins/non-players as soon as she tries to friendzone you. Amused mastery as always, no emotion, just let her know she’s full of shit. Non-chump virgins are gold. The chumpiness is the problem, not the virginity.

  • Desiderius

    Cooper,

    “I’m gonna be completely honest, I get the feeling from women (eapecially the young ones I know) that they think it’s far far more likely that a twenty-something guy to ‘have not come out yet’ than to have actually abstain from short-term hookups. Now-a-days a guy is much more likely to be presumed gay, if he isn’t running a carousel, than anything remotely pertaining to masculinity.”

    Young women (and men) think a lot of stupid things. More importantly, they know it. No better way to establish dominance than to call them on it with a grin.

    BTW, just had an 18-year-old solid nine come up to me at the pool.

    Her: What are you reading?

    Me: McLynn’s biography of Marcus Aurelius.

    Her: Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? (twirl hair, gaze into eyes)

    Me: No, I think it’s bullshit. (hold gaze)

    Her: It’s all about sex.

    Me: And fake dominance. Not interested.

    Her: What is real dominance?

    Me: A man who knows what he’s doing with a woman. (not the best answer, but what can you do?)

    Her: (wide-eyed silence, gaze, grin, licks lips) See you soon… (walks away)

    Crazy world.

    It’s been my general practice not to pursue this kind of thing, but I’m not so sure any more that that is right.

  • Desiderius

    Cooper,

    “Game can pretty much be broken down to “strictly seek short-term” (aka always maintain low investment) and “value yourself.””

    Not always, but you need to lead with that until she seeks more.

    A man MUST physically escalate, including early kino, if only to give the woman a chance to demonstrate value by resisting.

    A man must let the woman emotionally escalate, indeed require her to do so or make himself scarce if she doesn’t.

    Get your testosterone up.

    Wear well-fitted (tight) clothing.

    Build your social circle/community involvement.

    Control your emotions.

    There, that’s a good start.

  • Desiderius

    “A Game post on male virginity:”

    Well, duh. If your virginity is due to inexperience, not principle, that’s definitely not something to divulge, pretty much ever.

  • Ted D

    Tom – “If she works too, and you still expect her to cook clean and raise the children, then you are an ass…..No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women…

    If you “expect” her to have sex?…Well if you knew what you were doing in the bed room and made sure “every time” she was extremely pleased too, no expectation would be needed, she would willingly have sex with you.
    No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women.”

    Man… I worked full time while my ex stayed home with our newborn son, and I still had to do my “fair share” of the housework. (which to this day I still find as BS.) I can promise you that anytime my ex-wife “allowed” me to please her, I made damn sure I did a good job.

    Giving a woman an orgasm gets you nowhere if the rest of you shit isn’t together. My ex even went so far as to tell me how much “better” I was in that department than the guys she sexed up after our divorce and when I made some joke, she replied “you were never short in that department”. Yet, I ended up a divorced man. Why? Well, I honestly believe in part because I didn’t tell her how full of shit she was when she expected me to help do house work while she wasn’t working. Put another way, I was too beta and too supplicating and I let her walk all over me. Getting her off didn’t change that, and as time went on she just wasn’t interested in sex even though I got the job done.

    Don’t go trotting out that same old tired stuff about “woman’s work” and “taking care of the little lady in the bedroom” stuff here man. You and I BOTH know you know better than that.

  • Cooper

    “Her: Have you read 50 Shades of Grey?”

    LMAO. Hilarious.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    It sure is. I initially started frequenting HUS because I thought, of all places, that this might be the place to find alternative strategies – ones that unfortunately don’t exist.

    Yeah that’s the exact same experience I’ve had.

  • Desiderius

    Cooper,

    “If Mystery’s quintessential DHV – talking about the quality of women you’ve dated prior – teaches you anything, it’s that women cherish nothing more than a man who has been successful with other women.”

    Yep, that’s the red pill in a nutshell. It’s also the other thing getting good young men screened out at the starting gate.

    As for those good young men, the only way to success is through failure. And the only way to that wife and family you want is success, so get out there and start taking your lumps. All the prestige in the world won’t do it for you without that.

  • @Tom

    If she works too, and you still expect her to cook clean and raise the children, then you are an ass…..No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women…

    Yeah, because expecting a woman to be a partner is a bit much.

    What if she doesn’t work?

    What if she works (for fulfillment) but her income is merely enough to cover childcare and takeout meals that one of you could do if that one person didn’t work?

    If you “expect” her to have sex?…Well if you knew what you were doing in the bed room and made sure “every time” she was extremely pleased too, no expectation would be needed, she would willingly have sex with you.
    No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women.

    Why should I make sure “every time” she was extremely pleased if she has no interest in doing the same? Plus, I didn’t realize most men cut off by their wives only had it happen because they failed to be sex gods.

    Yes, Tom, women are perfect creatures and all the problems come from men.

    Tom, do you subscribe to the “the man should always apologize” school of thought, because you sure come across that way.

    And you failed to answer my question. In this age of “man up” and “grow up” and “where are all the good men” articles I have yet to hear one woman or woman’s apologist give an answer to the question “what does the typical American woman bring to the table to inspire men to do so?” beyond “tradition and biology”. If that’s all women can offer then my standards are what they are “offerring”.

    It’s not men writing these articles at a nearly monthly rate. When it is men it’s strong social conservatives who would give the same answer Susan did. Yet it’s unfair to ask what they’re offering and if they say “tradition and biology” to try and hold them to it.

    The odd thing is that it’s not the manosphere that drove it home so brutally to me but the fact I’m now with a woman who offers something: a partner who sees me as a human being, as evidenced by my game store story.

    She is the first woman I’ve been with who has treated things I enjoy as something that should be important to us. She thinks being part of a couple doesn’t just mean I care about things important to her but she does the same for me. In terms of moving in she wants me to prove I can be less of a bachelor about housework and she’s willing to go to FPU to be more proactive than she has been about finances. I do the first because it matters to her and she does the latter because it matters to me.

    I’m 45 years old and this is the first time I’ve experienced that. I look around at friends and peers and most still haven’t.

    Yet “No wonder a lot of divorces are initiated by women.” Spare me.

  • Desiderius

    Just,

    “Desiderius, some of the ideas you posit are pretty interesting. I must say I will mull in those things… also, I’m impressed”

    I appreciate that. I’m still embarrassed that the quality of this blog, and especially the work of it’s creator, keeps me coming back against my determination (and promises) not to. But it is what it is. Great place. Appreciate your contributions as well.

  • @Cooper

    Game can pretty much be broken down to “strictly seek short-term” (aka always maintain low investment) and “value yourself.”

    I think the latter aspect of Game is so undervalued in some cases, that no one can truly rally against it cause how is ‘self improvement’ ever a waste?

    I’m not sure it’s so much undervalued as men who emphasize valuing themselves often come to conclude women, on the whole, aren’t worth it. That is, only men who don’t respect themselves commit to women long term. It’s a mix of family law, my “what do they offer” question, and a ton of other things.

    Basically, our culture has so devalued the male side (both what they can expect and what they should give) in LTR/marriage that “value yourself” instead of being the LTR Game becomes MGTOW. As a result, Game turns into “rack up a pussy count”.

  • Jackie

    @Desiderus (348)

    Wait, aren’t you like in your 40s or 50s? As in, two to three times this teenager’s age? I am not doubting your account, but when I was 18, I thought even college guys were a LOT older.

    Girls interested in guys who were old enough to be your dad (or technically grandfather) are usually not healthy– especially bringing up pornography like 50 Shades of Garbage upon introduction.

    The fact that you didn’t shut her down and seem to get some kind of ego boost by writing about it here in lip-licking detail gives me a really bad feeling.

    Not just as a Christian (we’re supposed to be held to higher standards– I’d be interested in your pastor’s viewpoint of your post), but as a person. Aren’t you the teacher of teenagers as a profession? 🙁

    Seriously, Des, this kind of bragging and posturing makes me lose respect. I really thought better of you. 🙁

  • Cooper

    “Get your testosterone up.
    Wear well-fitted (tight) clothing.
    Build your social circle/community involvement.
    Control your emotions.
    There, that’s a good start.”

    Gawd, you must think your preaching the gospel.
    Maybe it’s due time I get a bad-ass display-pic so people will stop serving me spatula’s full of chump-game-101 like I’m in the lunch line.

  • Ramble

    … especially bringing up pornography like 50 Shades of Garbage upon introduction.

    Jackie, one of the jokes of our modern world is that you can read 50 shades on the beach or on the train. If you can read it on the train, it is not porn.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble
    “Jackie, one of the jokes of our modern world is that you can read 50 shades on the beach or on the train. If you can read it on the train, it is not porn.”
    =========
    Well, it’s not a joke to me. Those women bring us ALL down. I don’t want to be mean, or a “scold” but it IS porn, and just like those people watching it on the iPad on the plane, it IS wrong to display it in public. Little kids should not be asking their mom what “50 Shades of Grey” is about.

    Remember earlier when we were talking about how women set the moral standards? (i.e. we could fix the SMP tomorrow if women straightened up their acts). Well, women can start to fix it by calling it out, and saying there’s a better way.

    If that makes me a “cultural slut shamer”, well, I guess there are worse things to be!

  • Desiderius

    Whoa, hold your horses.

    I’m 42. I’m describing what the SMP is like. It wasn’t an introduction, she’s been a lifeguard at this pool for 3 years. I swim and/or read there maybe once a month and have talked to her (in a non-sexual way) maybe three or four times in the past. We talked about her college/career plans last time I was there for maybe 5 minutes while I was getting my pool pass. She doesn’t know I’m a teacher (I no longer am as there are no teaching jobs – back in finance).

    She is not, nor has ever been a student of mine. I’m not attracted to my students, although there you get a lot of the girls trying to flirt with you because you’re an authority figure. Never acted on any of that or wanted to.

    Not sure what I’m supposed to be bragging about.

    This is what is happening out here. It’s not just girls with problems. This girl gets plenty of attention from males her own age, and likely has more sexual experience than I do.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “Maybe it’s due time I get a bad-ass display-pic so people will stop serving me spatula’s full of chump-game-101 like I’m in the lunch”

    Lol have faith brother. I’ve never once assumed you needed help dressing yourself. But, you and I think a lot alike, and I can say I believe most people I chat with in the ‘sphere believe I’m a hopeless basket case that takes orders from anyone with a vagina and dresses like a guy from NASA during the 1960’s complete with pocket protector.

    I find it funny being as I’ve been in several heavy metal bands complete with tattoos and ass-length hair. Just because I suck at dealing with women doesn’t mean I’m totally without redeeming qualities…

  • Desiderius

    Cooper,

    “Gawd, you must think your preaching the gospel.
    Maybe it’s due time I get a bad-ass display-pic so people will stop serving me spatula’s full of chump-game-101 like I’m in the lunch line.”

    My apologies.

    These were things that I didn’t know that have made a big difference in my life.

  • Ramble

    Little kids should not be asking their mom what “50 Shades of Grey” is about.

    Remember earlier when we were talking about how women set the moral standards? (i.e. we could fix the SMP tomorrow if women straightened up their acts). Well, women can start to fix it by calling it out, and saying there’s a better way.

    Preach it, sister.

  • Rice n Beans

    “I noticed that the behavior of the gulls wasn’t that different from the little girls my daughter was in charge of. There were about 80 of them, and of the 80 I would say that about 60 were in full race-to-the-gutter slut mode, all chasing the same 8-10 boys.

    We’d pull one little bimbo off a favored boy and three hours later we’d find him huddled with a new “girlfriend” somewhere. Official “girlfriend” status seemed to be very important to the girls; to the boys, not so much. At any rate, official “girlfriend” status seemed to have a half life not much longer than carbon-11, at which time one girl would be deposed and another take her place.”

    Its the boys who are the sluts and bimbos, replacing gfs at the rate of carbon-11 life. The girls just want to be the girlfriend, not replaced.

  • Rice n Beans

    “Little kids should not be asking their mom what “50 Shades of Grey” is about.”

    The moms read it in private, just like the dads look at their porn in private. Uh, er, wait….

  • Desiderius

    I’m considering pursuing it because my lack of interest in casual sex (and consequent lack of understanding re: how to play the game to get there) has left me at a disadvantage with women I would be interested in pursuing relationships with.

    Women get very worried by an attractive man who’s game isn’t tight. The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?

    Not a rhetorical question.

    Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?

    I’ve always assumed it is, but I’m having doubts.

  • Jackie

    @Des

    Des, maybe I am overly sensitive: I had guy teachers who DID flirt (and more) with students. I *definitely* experienced some overly-friendly contact (arms draped around you) from teachers who were, I can say, SKEEZY.

    I am glad you are a stand-up guy for avoiding that!

    It’s a hard position to be in– There is probably no way you could tell this girl that bringing up 50 Shades of Grey to a man makes her look, well, not good.

    I guess I am shocked because I could barely talk to a boy my own age as a teen, much less an older man. Much less about 50 Shades of Garbage! Between that and her lip-licking, she is not on a good path, in my opinion.

    Thanks for filling me in on the details. I do appreciate the correction. 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Ramble
    “Preach it, sister.”

    Haha, Ramble! See, I told you we had more in common than not! 😉

  • Jackie

    @Des
    “Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?

    Not a rhetorical question.

    Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?”
    ==========
    WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?

    This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.

    I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.

  • Cooper

    “My apologies.”

    No worries, it’s just your not the first to assume I need such basic tips.

    @Ted D
    And, yeah, my comment was in reference to te response your pic had: “omg Ted found his ‘edge'” hahahaha. (as if people pointing it out, as if you hadn’t had it the entire time was intended as complementary)

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?

    This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.

    I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”

    I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.

  • Desiderius

    Cooper,

    “No worries, it’s just your not the first to assume I need such basic tips.”

    I did.

    That’s where the assumption came from.

  • Desiderius

    I did (need such basic tips).

  • Sai

    #310 -Anacona
    Weird, I saw comments on another site saying the opposite -ugly couples were resentful of having to choose between suicidal loneliness and being stuck with a partner they loathed.
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/ugly-women-are-more-likely-to-be-careerist-feminists/
    I say pfffft, I like adventure/excitement anyway. 😛

    #366 -Ted D.
    Hey now, I like NASA guys!

    And I like art with or without naked women. I can’t believe somebody complained about THAT, that’s kind of un-cultured. I guess I’m not a feminist after all.
    Although I am put off by that kino-escalation-whatever the appropriate term is. I don’t like people’s hands on me, especially if I don’t know them too well…

    Oi, Andrew! Why don’t you visit Russia? It’s full of pretty, hardworking, family-craving girls who couldn’t care less about your virginity. And you don’t even have to use a bunch of tricks/insults. Educate yourself here:
    russianwomentruth.com
    (no, I’m not a paid spokesperson, but I respect the people there and think there’s a great thing going on, and if out-of-shape, rude, uneducated Ryquisha here can have a mate then Olga and Vera should too)

  • Shinzaemon

    There was a lot of fibbing in those results. The first clue is the cheating question, we would like to believe 70% would never ever cheat if they could get away with it. No one is that optimistic anymore.

    And a woman with 10+ lifetime dicks is totally unacceptable.

  • Cooper

    “And a woman with 10+ lifetime dicks is totally unacceptable.”

    Ok. It’s also totally possible, if not already common. You notice how 10 was the lower end of the spectrum?

  • OffTheCuff

    Jackie: “Andrew, you sound really awesome! You should consider yourself a rare prize. Our society sends a really toxic message, in my opinion, that a guy who chooses to wait is somehow a loser in his parents’ basement. Personally, I would be impressed beyond measure to meet a man of such high standard and integrity. Actually, I would feel a little intimidated by the strength it takes to go against the grain. ”

    I know you are being honest here, but I heard this line too way much as a teen, and it only served to make things worse. This is probably the worst kind of stuff you can feed a young man, even though it seems like a compliment, No, Andrew… you’ve got it entirely backwards. Saving yourself is pointless, and only undermines your ability to find love.

  • JutR

    I agree with OffTheCuff, Jackie, as nice as your sentiment sounds, it’s a recipe for failure with women. I’m N=0 at 41, and won’t change it as it’s too much of a bother to invest my limited time and energy in seeking the needle in the haystack.

    Andrew, get on the boat, or it will sail by. I’m not saying it is the end of the world, but you have a limited window, as the quality of your selection declines significantly.

    I dated, and all of my relationships ended because I wasn’t sexing them up, only sizing them up. As a foolish young man, I was cheated on multiple times, and used for emotional support, and never really found a woman who had character and morals that was attracted to me enough to keep from exploring all her options. That was 20 years ago, and the quality of women has declined significantly with societal approval.

  • Ramble

    Haha, Ramble! See, I told you we had more in common than not!

    I am sure that we do, but, that one subject (female beauty, and it’s effect on men) will always have the potential to get people worked up.

  • Cooper

    Unfortunately, OTC is absolutely correct. There’s no reason to encourage going about things backwards.

    “Personally, I would be impressed beyond measure to meet a man of such high standard and integrity.”

    Oh, but Jackie, you forgot to mention how sexually attracted you wouldn’t be, though.

  • I would agree that for non-religious men especially, losing the v-card won’t hinder romantic success and is more likely to boost it. There have been several examples even here of girls losing their virginity in a budding LTR to a guy with a few past partners.

    Most women value sexual experience in men similar to how they want to look up to a guy who’s more intelligent, knows his way around weapons and power tools, can speak confidently about various subjects, and has more expertise and mastery in general. It’s more of a relative thing than an absolute thing, but in general, it is attractive when a man knows what to do, and that includes the bedroom.

    If a girl is virgin in every way, then a guy who has done stuff besides P in V is more experienced and can still lead her in the bedroom. Overall when it comes to “sexual prowess,” body count matters far less than the ability to read feminine cues and give orgasms, and a sexy attitude/aura of dominance. The guy doesn’t want to come across as too eager to please, but no big O makes her far less likely to be bonded to him. So even for a guy who’s interested in long-term bonding, sex matters a lot.

  • I would back up Jackie assertions about Andrew’s virginity being attractive to certain women, in which I include myself, but I think is cruel for me to do so without being on the position to put my money were my mouth is, being married and all that.

    My advice is for him to make a choice and stick to it. If he wants to keep himself virgin ad it to the list of things he is proud of and next time a woman reject him for that he can just look at her like “Wait you are not a virgin, too!?” like this was something that disqualifies her not him. Make it an asset or a challenge not something he is ashamed of.
    Also there are plenty of dating sites for virgins a Google search of Virgin Singles had many options for men like him. No need to dabble into the swamp to find the princess, if he decides to keep it.
    If he decides not to wait anymore then by all means make a priority to learn enough Game and get the issue resolved ASAP.

    Whatever your personal choice, good luck.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hahahahahahah, I had my V-card going into this LTR. She did not expect a thing, until I did not physically escalate at the proper pace and sucked at kissing, and was quite excited to get physical, until, you know, did not physically escalate at proper pace and sucked at kissing.

    It also created a lot of insecurities and hang-ups and misunderstood feelings on both sides, especially since she had a decently high N.

    My advice is to lose that V-Card shit ASAP. In as meaningless a way as possible.

    My other advice, being a similar guy in a once-similar situation:

    -Expand your social circle. This is huge. Can’t go out if you have no friends that go out
    -Dress better ALL THE TIME. Get into that habit. I can dress well, too, but I’ve gotten so used to being sloppy that it carries over sometimes
    -Amused Mastery should be your DEFAULT STATUS with any woman your age. Do little checks to make sure you are treating her like a little sister. It’s hard to go too far: I pulled back when I started flirting with one of the work supervisors and she responded positively. Woops.
    -Cut back your masturbation time to once a week. Seriously. That messes up your brain in a way I just can’t describe. I didn’t even notice it until a few weeks ago when I fell back into an old habit…oy. Just lay down the lube.
    -Open, open, open, open, open. Talk to a new girl every morning and every afternoon/evening at least. It’s realllllly hard, but very rewarding.
    -Escalate, escalate, escalate. This is THE issue for N=0 men I have found. You. Must. Escalate. It will feel unnatural at first, and you think you might seem creepy, and maybe you will, but if it makes you feel better, hell, I’ve been half-seriously slapped, but I have never lost a friendship or made anyone SUPER angry.

    Such is my advice!

  • Andrew

    @Just a Thought
    “use your virginity to weed out women who don’t like you that much, i.e. DQ them”
    Thanks for answering my questions. It’s made me understand a little more about myself and the reality of the situation. I’ll admit it sounds depressing, but I guess it must be the truth. You mentioned before about predatory women. How would I use your advice about “weeding out women who don’t like me that much,” when it comes to predatory women? What should I look for or how should I tell as far as warning signs and clues are concerned?

    @Cooper
    You mentioned before that you’re in the same boat as me. Are you or were you in the same boat as me? Have you applied basic Game strategies when you were around a girl/s? How successful were you?

    “Now-a-days a guy is much more likely to be presumed gay, if he isn’t running a carousel, than anything remotely pertaining to masculinity.”
    How is masculinity defined? Isn’t it subjective?

    “men should strategically be approaching with stort-term intensions”
    So when does it get to the point, where one decides to stop and seeks a LTR? Or does it just continue?

    @Lokland
    “A male virgin has about an equal chance of achieving solid LTR as a slut with an N over 100”
    Gee, I feel a lot more optimistic. Boy, don’t I feel honored being in the same category and sentence as a slut, lol.

    @Sai
    I did check out that website, but I don’t think Russian women respond positively about interracial dating from what I’ve read on a few forums out of curiosity.

    @OffTheCuff
    “No, Andrew… you’ve got it entirely backwards. Saving yourself is pointless, and only undermines your ability to find love.”
    How so? Is it a prerequisite to have scored at least once in order to find love?

  • Jackie

    OTC , JutR
    ” Saving yourself is pointless, and only undermines your ability to find love.”
    ======
    Sorry, dudes, this is my honest opinion: Andrew’s integrity is a plus. Ana agrees with me, and Bellita as well is hoping to find someone who has values like Andrew. They are cool chicks, so you are in good company!

    I will be the first to admit that we are outliers. So what?! Andrew doesn’t have to find a majority of women (unless he is some sort of would-be polygamist), just 1 woman who shares his viewpoint.

    All of you guys are in a *grossly* unjust position: Our SMP is so degraded that guys like you, with integrity, should be elevated instead of having to deal with so much grief. I am truly truly sorry; you don’t deserve to be punished for having values.

    Cooper, Susan herself says you are SIL material. Once you start playing Settlers of Catan with nice girls and stand-up guys (instead of these faux “Alphas” and girls who sound promiscuous) you will have a lot more success, I think.

    JutR, your description and stories of your beloved dog brought me to tears. You just sound like such a cool guy. I agree with Susan: You have a LOT going for you and it is a shame that you have bowed out of dating. I truly hope you will find someone who will make you reconsider.

    I don’t care what the rest of the world does. I am going to live by values and focus on a life well-lived. To me, that is far superior than letting your life’s actions be dictated by the “vulgar herd” of our weird and dysfunctional society.
    *steps off soapbox*

  • Jackie

    @Cooper
    “Oh, but Jackie, you forgot to mention how sexually attracted you wouldn’t be, though.”

    Coop, do you know how much I would have LOVED a stand-up guy to ask me out, instead of the frat guys? But they never did. Maybe it was my fault for not giving enough IOIs…

    Anyway, if the guy framed it, not as a weakness (the way society does), but WITH CONFIDENCE as a man of exceptionally discriminating taste and purposeful integrity, I would be swooning.

    It’s not the sexual status; it’s the self-confidence. Believe me, I have seen ministers’ sons who I know to be virgins, who are confident and have a lot of girls after them.

  • Jackie

    @Des
    ““WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?

    This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.

    I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”

    I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.”
    ===========
    Des, I will be glad to provide you with scriptural, ethical, moral and anecdotal evidence. First, though, I really want to make sure I am not mistaken. You said:
    ===============
    “The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?… is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?”
    ================
    Dude, do you not see how a 40-something “practicing” on a teenager is exploitative, manipulative, and just plain WRONG? You want to USE this girl “for practice” so you can get what you want, “tight game.”

    Using people is wrong. Period. Practice is for an instrument, sport or art-form. NOT a person!

    It’s getting late, so I don’t have time to write my personal experience with this, but please, don’t do this to a teenager who has neither your knowledge nor life experience. It will mess her up, I guarantee it.

    Besides that, if a teenager is already sexualizing conversation with you and bringing up porn, something is NOT RIGHT. Something is off, there is dysfunction. Please don’t exploit it.

  • Courtley

    Count me in as another woman who thinks Andrew sounds like a total catch. Sexual attraction is hard to gauge over the Internet but Andrew or any other man’s virginity would certainly not affect it for me. Manwhoring is a turnoff in my world.

  • Ian

    @INTJ

    This is the most frustrating thing. There are so many strategies that girls can use to navigate the SMP/MMP, but the only advice that Susan or anyone else offers us guys is to learn Game. That or the mainstream advice of “just be yourself”.

    INTJ to INTJ Advice: Humans are wet machines. Change your anatomy, not behaviors; hormones are behaviors.
    Specific advice: Stop masturbating. Meditate daily. Find an oxytocin source.

    Dominance is predicted by (at least) three hormones – cortisol (low), oxytocin (high), testosterone (high). Cortisol is stress, testosterone decreases under stress. Oxytocin reduces immediate stress. Animal social hierarchies are set in place by stress, underlings being stressed more than dominant animals, stress reducing sex hormones, reducing sexual competition. Stress, sleepiness, and fear are cortisol, the four may be used interchangeably. Alphaness is a lack of fear, cortisol, betaness is a display of fear/anxiety.

    Fear exists in the right brain, right prefrontal. Meditation is a large first step because it does two things. One, it reduces baseline cortisol levels, lower even than when sleeping. Two, it strengthens the left prefrontal (lack of fear) against the right. 

    Wanking really, just stop. Orgasms are the off-button to sexual behavior. Remove the off-button, people would have sex until they died of exhaustion. It’s a necessary evil, but, really, just stop. First, you’re flooding your brain with prolactin, the opposite of dopamine (motivation). While, shrinking your testosterone receptors in areas of the brain involving male-specific sexual behaviors. While, flooding your brain with opioids so that you’re less sensitive to smaller rewards. While, putting Fos-B gluttony proteins on stockpile. While, providing a cheap oxytocin blast that takes the place of more constructive outlets.

    Underline the above, and then research the sexual habits of Ally Khan and the Oneida crew. A lack of orgasms doesn’t make you a monk, it removes the off-button. 

    Ending with oxytocin. Confidence deconstructs linguistically to being “with trust”, oxytocin is the trust hormone. Studies have found that over-hugged mama’s boys, in preschool, turn out to be more brave, not less than the more “independent” youth. Oxytocin’s effects don’t last long, and it’s a bitch of an after-school special to get. You have to do pro-social things, like sing and laugh and touch, maybe spend time in nature, listen to mantras, and go to church. And then, two days later, you have to do it again. This is where girlfriends, FWB’s, even “starter girlfriends” are invaluable. Oxytocin’s a social animal’s currency, but your body can’t get rich; indentured servitude is the default setting.

    Valued supplements: DHA/EPA, basically the “skin” of your brain cell. Phosphatydylserine, lowers cortisol levels by repairing cortisol receptors. Sleep, lowers cortisol. Sunlight, increases testosterone. Weightlifting, increases testosterone. Maca, makes testosterone more effective (it seems, long story). Creatine, for your brain, actually.

    That’s change. Game is more the manual for troubleshooting women’s own wet programs. That comes later.

  • Wudang

    Awesome post Ian. Do write more about things like that.

    I`m pretty sure meditation will do something for your oxytocin levels. Certainly the inner smile meditation will do that a lot.

  • Desiderius

    Ian,

    Thanks.

    “Game is more the manual for troubleshooting women’s own wet programs.”

    Looking forward to that post.

  • Courtley

    @Ian

    “Ending with oxytocin. Confidence deconstructs linguistically to being “with trust”, oxytocin is the trust hormone. Studies have found that over-hugged mama’s boys, in preschool, turn out to be more brave, not less than the more “independent” youth. Oxytocin’s effects don’t last long, and it’s a bitch of an after-school special to get. You have to do pro-social things, like sing and laugh and touch, maybe spend time in nature, listen to mantras, and go to church. And then, two days later, you have to do it again. This is where girlfriends, FWB’s, even “starter girlfriends” are invaluable. Oxytocin’s a social animal’s currency, but your body can’t get rich; indentured servitude is the default setting.”

    This is great advice, and a more ‘scientific’ breakdown of what I think a lot of us are saying when we advise people to “put themselves out there” and “socialize more” and “be an interesting person.” There’s very real, verifiable brain-chemistry changes when people have healthy social circles, friendships and interests.

  • Tom

    Well, it’s not a joke to me. Those women bring us ALL down. I don’t want to be mean, or a “scold” but it IS porn, and just like those people watching it on the iPad on the plane, it IS wrong to display it in public. Little kids should not be asking their mom what “50 Shades of Grey” is about.
    _____________
    While I agree there should be some degree of discreetness, people really need to loosen up about sex.
    People think nothing about watching a movie or TV show where people are killed, some times killed in a terrible way. Murder is WAY more offensive than sex, an activity that happens 200 million + times a day around the world. Sex is one of the most commonly shared activities on earth, and our victorian thought process about sex is, well, just ridiculous.
    Sex is a beautiful act that ideally should be shared by a couple in love. However there are millions of people who can not or do not want a relationship. Are they not supposed to have sex? Not everyone shares the religious view that others do.

  • Tom

    Most women value sexual experience in men similar to how they want to look up to a guy who’s more intelligent, knows his way around weapons and power tools, can speak confidently about various subjects, and has more expertise and mastery in general. It’s more of a relative thing than an absolute thing, but in general, it is attractive when a man knows what to do, and that includes the bedroom.
    _____________
    I will agree with this from this point of view.
    Some people seem to think that experience sexually with different people is no different than a lot of sex with one person. I dont agree. What one person likes is not the same always as to what other people might like. I am NOT saying we should go out and get a ton of experience with a lot of women, but….the woman we end up with will probably be grateful of our knowledge, especially if she, herself is fairly inexperienced. I am not saying having sex with a lot of women will make all men better in bed. Some guys are only concerned about themselves and fail to learn about different womens bodies and the multitude of techniques that can be done to add to a womans pleasure. Some guys ARE concerned about the womans pleasure, while others are more selfish.
    Some people are of the opinion that first time sex, even if it is casual is most often bad sex. I beg to differ. I often be great sex, if both people know what they are doing and know more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak.

  • Tom

    I meant to type IT often can be great……..lol

  • OffTheCuff

    Andrew: “How so? Is it a prerequisite to have scored at least once in order to find love?”

    No, just infinitely easier. You don’t hit a home run the first time you go to bat. You need to build confidence on top of past smaller successes. One of the guys nailed, lose your V as quickly as possible, and then set about finding what you really want.

    Your virginity is not a plus – it is a huge negative to most women, and only neutral at best if you meet a rarity like Jackie who is also attracted to you (and not just calling you a catch “for someone else”). Therefore, to increase your odds with “regular people” lose it.

    You never want to hear the words: “You’re a great guy! You’ll make a wonderful boyfriend for someone someday” from a woman, unless she is your Mom.

    ****

    Jackie, there’s nothing wrong with Desi flirting back with an 18-year old. She is a legal adult who approached him, and he even toned it down instead escalating. What should he do, act all offended and indignant, an end the conversation immediately due to the age difference? Precisely what is wrong with it?

    I practice social skills all the time, with all ages. Heck, when I was 30, was at the pool and a bunch of old grannies were making remarks about my bathing suit and cackling that they were waiting for it to fall of. I suppose I should have run away instead of laughing I could give them a cheap thrill.

    • Jackie, there’s nothing wrong with Desi flirting back with an 18-year old.

      Did I miss something? I thought Desi was saying it was fair game to pursue casual sex with this girl.

      Is it appropriate and ethical for a 45 yo man to have sex with an 18 yo girl? That’s a complicated question, but I can imagine it as a rather sordid screenplay. It’s legal, I guess. That’s the best I can say for it.

      My bad if I misinterpreted Desi’s remarks.

  • JutR

    Jackie, thank you for the kind words. I read a lot of your posts and knowing there are women out there like you makes me question my decision to stop searching. I think that is why I come back to HUS. Hope springs eternal and all. You, Hope, Sassy, Anacaona and others show a great deal of self awareness I found lacking in any women I have been able to talk with on deep levels.

    I’m off the market only because I stopped chasing. The feeling I got from dating women was like going to the casino and losing every damn time.

    When you come out, everyone expects you to have had some sort of great experience. And having all your friends and family encourage you to go back.

    Maybe when women embrace equality and ask men out, I might end up dating, but for now, I am using the SMPs dynamics to opt out effectively.

  • OffTheCuff

    I got the impression he was practicing his conversation, not practicing escalation. All he did was talk to her.

    The whole idea that it’s male abuse is comical, though. One my friends pursued an older man for casual when she was 16 or so. Another Christian one married a man at 19 who was in his late 30s. My early-30s cousin (the bikini model type who looks 25) married a man in his 50s. One girl I went to college with married her professor 20 years older, after he divorced another former student, and on top that… all her friends were *ecstatic* about it… Nobody clucked in disapproval.

    • @OTC

      Of the examples you gave, the only skeezy one is the 16 yo pursuing an older man for sex. It’s distinctly aberrant behavior for the girl, and statutory rape to boot if he takes the bait. A 16 yo is a child.

      The others are 20 year age differences, not all that unusual among consenting adults, especially if the man has financial resources. Research shows that most women prefer an age difference of about 2.5 years.

  • Cooper

    @Jackie
    “Once you start playing Settlers of Catan with nice girls. . .”
    Ah, that made me laugh. That’s what I did last Tuesday!

    @Andrew
    I meant in* the same. Game works – there’s no doubt about that. It’s just I’m not a huge fan. (regarding some aspects – other bits can be great advice)
    Beware of anyone here stroking your ego about saving yourself being a plus, it is misleading. Althought that does depend on your geography. Some places might large religious communities where that might be valued – most elsewhere not so much.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “And, yeah, my comment was in reference to te response your pic had: “omg Ted found his ‘edge’” hahahaha. (as if people pointing it out, as if you hadn’t had it the entire time was intended as complementary)”

    Its all good brother. I truly appreciate everyone’s kind words regarding my new “look”, but I’ve always understood the proper use of costumes and stage props. The thing is, it never occurred to me that life is truly a stage, and I should have been wearing appropriate “costumes” every day. To be honest, I think I did OK prior to getting married, and at some point after I said “I Do” it was like some deep hidden programming came to life and turned me into a bona fide wuss bag. I went from computer tech by day and metal head by night, to an IT manager with no outside interests at all, and I let my ex-wife shit test me into a corner. In the end all is good as I’ve found someone to be with, and I have my children which was one of my life goals. And it taught me a hard lesson: to NEVER allow someone else to dictate who I am.

    Ian – Wow. Your last post simply blew me away. I’ve copied it and saved it for later use, as I struggle with the social aspects of life all the time due to my introverted ways. The funny thing is: as a performing musician I’ve felt exactly what you described, but I always assumed it was something that I could only “feel” during a performance because of the nature of the medium. I always assumed that it was one of the few ways I could “connect” with other people since I generally feel disconnected from everyone most of the time. If I understand what you posted correctly, you are saying that is NOT true and I simply have to train myself to make those connections in other ways. VERY, very interesting…

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Did I miss something? I thought Desi was saying it was fair game to pursue casual sex with this girl.”

    I haven’t been entirely serious on this thread (certainly not nearing perfection), but I never made that claim, seriously or otherwise. I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime – my endurance is wearing thin.

    Some specifics would be appreciated.

    “Is it appropriate and ethical for a 45 yo man to have sex with an 18 yo girl? That’s a complicated question, but I can imagine it as a rather sordid screenplay. It’s legal, I guess. That’s the best I can say for it.”

    I’m 42, not 45. She looked 25 when she was 16. The irony is that I think her proposition is a request to use me more than the other way around.

    “My bad if I misinterpreted Desi’s remarks.”

    No more severely than usual. We never seem to stray far from our discomfort zone.

    • I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime — my endurance is wearing thin.

      Jackie gave you reasons against it. It’s hard for me to even imagine the circumstances – as a mother I would be deeply troubled if my 18 yo flirted with a man 24 years older than herself, and alarmed if he flirted back. Humbert Humbert.

      The usual “divide by 2, add 7” benchmark men report using would make your youngest appropriate partner 28. Personally, I think it’s a matter of personal choice, but an 18 yo brain is not fully mature. She’s not allowed to have a beer, but she is coming on to a man her father’s age. It’s more than a little odd.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Agreed, which is why we wind up debating whether “strictly short term” success is a victory or a tragedy. It’s one thing to be hard-wired for ST sex, as narcissists and sociopaths are. It’s another thing to attempt to rewire yourself into a zero empathy sexual jackal.

    So what do you think we should be doing?

    @ Jackie

    Coop, do you know how much I would have LOVED a stand-up guy to ask me out, instead of the frat guys? But they never did. Maybe it was my fault for not giving enough IOIs…

    Anyway, if the guy framed it, not as a weakness (the way society does), but WITH CONFIDENCE as a man of exceptionally discriminating taste and purposeful integrity, I would be swooning.

    How the hell am I supposed to approach someone and ask her out with confidence when I know that there’s a 99% chance that she’s going to find my lack of experience with women unattractive? The guys who have confidence in this SMP either have experience with women or are sociopaths who don’t care about getting rejected.

    @ Ian

    Looking at your description, the main issue is that I don’t do many pro-social activities. I’d expect I’ve got low cortisol and high testosterone, but low oxytocin.

    The problem with dominance in general is that it’s a lot harder to display once you have potential romantic interest in someone. Sure, if you asked me to go up to some random girl and act dominant, I’d have no trouble, cause I don’t give a damn what she things. However, ask me to go up to a girl I’m interested in and display dominance and I’m going to have a much harder time. This might be a feature, not a bug though, as I would hate having to constantly be dominant with someone I’m close to. I certainly don’t do it with my family or best-friend. With aqcuaintances and more casual friends though, I’m usually quite confident imposing (sometimes I go too far and get viewed as having short man syndrome).

    • So what do you think we should be doing?

      Honoring your own nature – be true to yourself. That’s not the same thing as “just be yourself.” But it does mean developing yourself in a way that is congruent with your values and goals. If you want a loving relationship, you need to win one woman. If you want to be a playa thug, that’s a whole different ballgame.

  • OffTheCuff

    Yeah, it’s dicey, but the age of consent is 16 in many states, including your own. That woman had an N of 30 by age 17, so it’s comical to think it’s the man’s fault, legalities aside. She freely admits she knew what she exactly was doing and he stood no chance to resist. Few men ever did.

    My main point wasn’t to justify it, but rather to illustrate that women wanting older men isn’t rare, if even I personally know many examples.

    Is it equally bad if a cougar Mom has a 22-year old boyfriend? I have a friend who gets hit on by men in their early 20’s all the time.

    • Is it equally bad if a cougar Mom has a 22-year old boyfriend? I have a friend who gets hit on by men in their early 20′s all the time.

      Well 22 is four years older than 18. That guy is adult by every definition we have, even if he doesn’t act like it.

      I recall that during the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church in Boston, there were several survivors of priestly abuse who had been in their mid to late teens when it was happening. I remember thinking that this was not pedophilia. Some of those teens were expressing interest in the sexual relationships during that time. Clearly, all parties agreed that a young man of that age was not capable of making a good judgment and should not be held accountable.

  • Rice n Beans

    “Is it equally bad if a cougar Mom has a 22-year old boyfriend? I have a friend who gets hit on by men in their early 20′s all the time.”

    Its problematic for her child or children. I tell all my single parent friends to hold off on dating until their kids are grown. Of course they don’t always listen, and their kids suffer for it but parents these days don’t prioritize their children. They prioritize their own sex lives.

  • Ramble

    Humbert Humbert.

    What an amazing story.

    He fell in love and stayed in love with a 12 year old girl, who had already lost her virginity, that got pregnant by another older man.

    And written by a man born and raised in Russia.

    • @Ramble

      And written by a man born and raised in Russia.

      What I find extraordinary is that Nabokov wrote Lolita in English, not Russian. His command of a language not his own is a remarkable feat.

  • Ramble

    The usual “divide by 2, add 7″ benchmark

    I only remember hearing this once as a child, and, if I remember correctly, it was used as an example of extremely backward thinking. However, I have seen you reference it a few times.

    How much value do you place on that benchmark? Any? Or, is it more to appease some in the ‘sphere?

    • How much value do you place on that benchmark? Any? Or, is it more to appease some in the ‘sphere?

      I learned it from guys here. I’m not sure where it originated. I assume that guys are sensitive to the criticism of being “dirty old men” when they focus on very young women. On the occasions I have seen it used, it’s seemed to make some sense. For example, a young woman aged 23 recently started dating a guy who is 32. She was kind of freaked out by the age difference but liked him. She did the math and realized that while she was at the bottom of his range, she was still in it. She seemed to take comfort from this.

  • Cooper

    @INTJ, Susan
    “”Agreed, which is why we wind up debating whether “strictly short term” success is a victory or a tragedy. It’s one thing to be hard-wired for ST sex, as narcissists and sociopaths are. It’s another thing to attempt to rewire yourself into a zero empathy sexual jackal.”

    So what do you think we should be doing?”

    I’d say it’s a victory for the individual, and a tragedy for the SMP.

    Susan, do you really think that the guy attempting to emulate the sociopath is worse than the actual sociopath? If narcassistic behavior wasn’t being rewarded we would have guys trying to emulate it, obviously. It doesn’t take being around a extremely alpha guy for very long to realize that the difference IS being “a zero empathy sexual jackal.”

    • Susan, do you really think that the guy attempting to emulate the sociopath is worse than the actual sociopath?

      Definitely not. The true sociopath is a menace to his fellow human beings. But I do feel that the guy attempting to emulate him is a tragic and pitiable figure. Think about it. We live in a time when young men worship society’s most disordered individuals. (And young women sex them up.)

  • Rice n Beans

    “Susan, do you really think that the guy attempting to emulate the sociopath is worse than the actual sociopath? If narcassistic behavior wasn’t being rewarded we would have guys trying to emulate it, obviously. It doesn’t take being around a extremely alpha guy for very long to realize that the difference IS being “a zero empathy sexual jackal.”

    Cooper I don’t get this mentality of emulating sociopathy. Why not just set a goal to become accomplished in a valuable skill or talent and take pride and confidence in one’s achievements?

    What we have today is a bunch of adults acting as if they are special when they have nothing to feel special about. I really don’t get it.

  • Jackie

    “Humbert Humbert.

    What an amazing story.”
    ===========
    The only way I can read _Lolita_ is to read it as allegory: the totalitarianism that destroyed Russian. It is about tyranny from the viewpoint of the tyrant.

    Nabokov is an AMAZING writer (and was a butterfly collector and expert, I believe). But still, it’s almost unbearable to think of it as reality and not metaphor.

    Just like _Clarissa_ may be a classic, but is creepy as creep when you think that Lovelace is plotting to rape her the whole time. While putting up the front of the graceful artificer. YUCK!

    (Now there is an 18th c PUA for you! Happily he ends up dead.)

    If I think about it as a creepy, awful pedophile– Nabakov himself describes HH as “hateful”– I can’t bear it. Ugh ugh ugh!!!
    😥

  • Jason773

    INTJ,

    Looking at your description, the main issue is that I don’t do many pro-social activities.

    If you think this is one of your main problems then the first thing to do is NEVER turn down an invitation to do something social. You can be more discerning with your time later, but initially take advantage of every opportunity.

    Let me tell you a TR (TL/DR) encompassing this attitude and leading to a 5’10” 7.5 blonde saying to me, verbatim this past Saturday night, “what’s your friend going to do when I take you home tonight?”…

    July 4th this year was on a Wednesday, and a buddy and I had nothing to do so we were just drinking a couple beers and we went to the Olive Garden for dinner (I know, I know, but the breadsticks are delicious). At dinner he gets an invite to a hipster parter in the hipster part of town and without hesitation I insist that we go even though I hate PBR. Him and I were the only people there without piercings, tats and /or skin tight clothes, but who cares, it’s something social.

    Anyways, at the party I ended up talking to a very cute girl for a couple of hours, sometimes alone and sometimes in a group, but it went really well. The opener I gave was pretty memorable as well…

    Friend: Anybody want an icepop?
    Me: I’ll take one
    Hipster Girl: No, I’m good.
    Me to HG: What, you already have your one meal of the day?
    HG *with hesitation*: Suck my dick
    Me: Careful, ask me again and I’ll make you whip it out. (bold, but fit the party demographics)

    While I wasn’t super interested in HG and didn’t progress the interaction or get a number, she was really cool, we hit it off and I found out that she is a server at a popular bar in the city.

    Fast forward to this past weekend, a different friend and I end up in this bar around 9:30pm. She immediately recognizes me, sits us at a table and chats me up a bunch. Friend and I relax for an hour drinking a bit until the bar gets really busy, at which point we start interacting with other people. Later while up at the bar that night, HG gives my friend and I each a shot and a beer for free, so I kiss her on the cheek, tell her ‘thanks’ and give her a pat on the butt.

    The thing is two girls right next to us at the bar see this whole exchange, and then immediately ask “how do you know her?” Preselection and social status reigning supreme. I tell them she is a friend of mine, and they keep asking questions and showing interest until the blonde one grabs my hand and pulls me on to the dancefloor. Anyways, the rest is EZ game and it was a great night. (I actually didn’t go home with her, as I’ve been good to my changing ways, but I just like knowing I still got it).

    Moral of the story should be evident in that you never know how being social can trigger something good down the line, and when those social interactions will pay dividends, so ALWAYS be open, even if it isn’t your typical thing.

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    “How the hell am I supposed to approach someone and ask her out with confidence when I know that there’s a 99% chance that she’s going to find my lack of experience with women unattractive? The guys who have confidence in this SMP either have experience with women or are sociopaths who don’t care about gett”

    Oops! Sorry your quote got cut off somehow, INTJ. 🙁

    INTJ, how would she know you of your lack of experience with women, from a cursory meeting? SHE WON’T, if you develop good social skills.

    I know from your handle that you are an introvert in an extrovert’s world. That’s not fair and a pretty tough hand you’ve been dealt. I hate giving IOIs, so you know, I have to work on this to!

    We can improve social skills every day in little ways: I practice saying “hi” to 3 strangers on my running path each day. I greet people when I take my cats for a walk. Going to the store? Practice striking up a conversation with the cashier. THey kind of have to talk with you, and you’ll be out of there in 30 seconds, tops.

    You can practice getting better at talking, conversation and having confidence in your social skills like it’s a video game. No one starts at the top levels– it takes practice on the lower before you move up.

    I made a list of venues I go where I can improve (errands, dance, church, etc). And then I make a game of it:
    *Smile at a guy = 1pt
    *Say HI to anyone = 1pt
    *Say hi to an attractive guy = 2pts
    *Wink and smile at anyone, even a baby = 1pt
    *Give a compliment (“Nice cat leash!” = 5pts
    *Strike up a conversation= 5pts

    When I hit 10 pts, I have WON the game and my mission is complete, I can go home. This doesn’t have to be awful, it can be really fun and mastering something always gives you a sense of accomplishment.

    Anyway, these are my thoughts, INTJ. I hope you do grow in confidence as you improve with girls. Good luck! 😎

  • Jackie

    @Jason
    “Me to HG: What, you already have your one meal of the day?
    HG *with hesitation*: Suck my dick
    Me: Careful, ask me again and I’ll make you whip it out.”

    Wait, a GIRL said that to you?!

  • Ramble

    He spoke 3 languages growing up. English, in some ways, might have been a native tongue of his.

    Still, no less impressive. Especially since he may have spoken fluent German as well, which would have been language number 4.

  • @Susan
    I remember one of my English professors beginning a lecture by saying . . .

    “I’m sure that many of you here have thought about writing a great novel someday . . . But how many of you have thought about writing a great novel in a language you don’t even speak yet?”

    It was his introduction to Under Western Eyes by Joseph Conrad. 🙂

  • Ramble

    She seemed to take comfort from this.

    To me, that is really funny. Again, that bench mark is supposed to be an example of really backward thinking, but, a girl, today, might still employ it and gain comfort from it.

    How did she know about it?

    • How did she know about it?

      I don’t know, it’s possible she got it here. I always assumed I was the only one who didn’t know about it, but maybe it’s not common at all.

  • Jackie

    @Des

    I’m glad you are not serious about this. The truth, it is said, is spoke in jest, and I feel creepy even joking about it, to be frank!

    ” I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime – my endurance is wearing thin.”
    Oh brother! In the words of my mentor, Get off the cross!

    I once saw the late Christopher Hitchens debate and speak on atheism. He specifically addressed the trope of the self-pitying Christian. Asking Why, if the Bible specifically says the followers of Christ will suffer for their beliefs, they are so aggrieved, when this has been part of Scripture for centuries. It’s no surprise, in any case!

    Des, you seem to want to take the trappings and avatar of a famous Christian theologian and writer without actually taking on what laypeople, much less famous, have adhered to:

    You *know* the standards of your Presbyterian church (fornication is wrong). You *know* what the Bible says about treating young women as “sisters in Christ, all in purity” (1Timothy 5:1-2). You know what the Bible says how we are to regard a man of sexual immorality (1 Cor 5:11)– not only NOT to do it, but not to associate with those who do.

    You know this. And you’ve always known this.

    You are asking not to get the answer you already know, but to gratify your ego. To have to say this to a 40-something Christian man, who is in a position of authority and supposed to be an example, is *INCREDIBLY* sad. Imagine it from the viewpoint of your future wife, “Wow, I’m so lucky– he ‘practiced on and then disposed of teenagers so he could ‘game’ me! What a fine example for our children!”

    I have a story of how an older man tried to do something similar to me, when I was a grieving teenager, a few years after my mom had died. In my case, he was trying to exploit me to feel younger, just like you’re trying to exploit this teen to feel like a Casanova with “tight game.”

    The story will keep for later. I have to go. But let me just say this: The fact that this girl is being inappropriately sexual with you, bringing up porn, sexualizing the convo– is a sign that something is WRONG. This is inappropriate behavior by the teenager. Not a chance for you to exploit someone to gratify yourself.

    Remember what Jesus said about those who hurt children. This girl was still a child in the eyes of the law less than a year ago. Better to have a millstone around your neck than to hurt them. There are lots of women your own age.

  • OffTheCuff

    I don’t see the difference. An 18 year old is a legal adult, except for the pointless restriction on drinking, which is only enforced sporadically.

    I don’t believe in extended childhood. Our brains may still be developing at 18, but so what? If you have right to have sex, then you have the responsiblity for dispositiotning it.

    Do you want to lobby to raise the age of consent to 21? Heck, even *I* wasn’t a virgin by then, and I was emotionally stunted.

    • I don’t believe in extended childhood. Our brains may still be developing at 18, but so what? If you have right to have sex, then you have the responsiblity for dispositiotning it.

      The definition of childhood has changed dramatically in 100 years. Before that it was assumed that children were miniature adults. Today, psychologist talk about male “extended adolescence,” which often last until age 26.

      In any case, I’m not interested in legislating anything. It’s like porn, I know skeezy when I see it. My daughter was a lifeguard and a middle aged “dad” taking an interest in her would have definitely been viewed in a poor light by her employer. It reminds me of dreading rides home from babysitting because the dad would sometimes flirt and try to act sexy.

      (I’m not talking about Desi here, btw, I understand she initiated the contact and mentioned porn.)

  • OffTheCuff

    Yeah, Desi, a hot young woman approached you, likely, way more worldly and experienced than both of us combined, and you *exploited* her by not running away, talking to her, and talking about your experience. Have you no shame?!

    Stuff like this is is why I went atheist, and keep my kids out of church. Get out while you can…

  • @Ms. Jackie #429:
    “I once saw the late Christopher Hitchens debate and speak on atheism.”

    O: Did you see him go head to head with Dinesh D’Souza? D’Souza mopped the floor with Hitch. Especially on a number of key points…

    O.

  • @Rice N Beans aka BAG LADY:
    “Cooper I don’t get this mentality of emulating sociopathy. Why not just set a goal to become accomplished in a valuable skill or talent and take pride and confidence in one’s achievements?”

    O: Because without learning the suite of traits Women find sexually desirable, it is highly possible to be skilled and accomplished and still not get laid or get a girlfriend/mate/wife. Also, because being accomplished is not something every Man can acquire or get. What part of that do you not still get?

    “What we have today is a bunch of adults acting as if they are special when they have nothing to feel special about. I really don’t get it.”

    O: This is not surprising…

    O.

  • Jackie

    OTC (432)

    Off The Cuff, look at Des’s avatar: It’s that of a Catholic (reformed) Theologian and Teacher. Specifically one who preached sexual desire in the context of marriage.

    The standards in my post aren’t originated by me, they are in line with the practices of his own avatar and church!

    I didn’t say, Flee from all women! I said, There are women your own age.

    If you are OK with your kids being put in the same situation– a man 2 and a half times their age flirting with your teenage daughter, with no honorable intention towards her– it’s your business.

  • bobbyB

    So 41% of guys don’t care if their wife has had more than 40 guys- like full sex?

    They aint tellin the truth- it must matter a bit surely?

    I mean you know, 40 different dicks and semen and stuff- that dont sound so good,,,

  • Sai

    #419 -Jackie
    ROFL, now every time I speak to a stranger I’m going to hear the Mario Bros. music.

    Andrew, if I ever begin to annoy you, please let me know…
    If you are East Asian or part East Asian you wouldn’t have much trouble in Russia, since there is a growing trend of women there marrying Chinese men and I don’t think men whose families came from neighboring countries would be unwelcome.
    Or you could just try East Asia. Also, India. 🙂
    If you are black… why not go to Latin America? Lots of countries, lots of cultures, and it’s like a freaking rainbow. And that’s good. No matter how light or dark your skin is there will be someone who surpasses you, and there will be a good number of girls who won’t have a problem with your appearance.

  • Sai

    To all the posters who mention Game (sorry, I’m still learning about all this), where were you when you applied it? What sort of women responded -was there a lot of one race, or one age group? I ask because whenever a guy tried that dominance/mastery on me I did not like it and ended up saying in so many words “I’m going to stand/sit over there now.” Unless the guy was being a fool/dick/pest, in which case I told him so and then went to stand/sit over there. Maybe I am an anomaly.

    I don’t doubt that it works on some women, but again, on whom?

  • OffTheCuff

    Jack: “If you are OK with your kids being put in the same situation– a man 2 and a half times their age flirting with your teenage daughter, with no honorable intention towards her– it’s your business.”

    I don’t have to be OK with it. I am perfectly comfortable argiung for both sides at the same time. That girl is not my daughter.

    “Being put in the same situation” implies some sort of passivity/victimhood for the girl. But she approached him, she had part in making the situation.

    I would hope to raise my daughter not to initiate such things, and while I wouldn’t like it, if she does, there’s little I can do. I have no authority, and everyone would assert her right to flirt with whoever she wants over my right to stop it. The world is on her side, not mine. She can do whenever she wants, and I cannot stop her. It’s her right as an adult, isn’t it?

    My MILF neighbor told me in no uncertain terms that if she met a teen girl who wants to have sex, she would point them to anonymous birth control, rather than inform her parents, or try to stop her. After all, they’re going to do it anyway, and we have no right to stop them, she says.

  • @Sai aka Rice N Beans aka BAG LADY #438:
    “To all the posters who mention Game (sorry, I’m still learning about all this), where were you when you applied it? What sort of women responded -was there a lot of one race, or one age group? I ask because whenever a guy tried that dominance/mastery on me I did not like it and ended up saying in so many words “I’m going to stand/sit over there now.” Unless the guy was being a fool/dick/pest, in which case I told him so and then went to stand/sit over there. Maybe I am an anomaly.

    I don’t doubt that it works on some women, but again, on whom?”

    O: Game is a human mating strategy, for Males, and comprises a complex of behaviors, actions, thinking, postures and tactics, designed to win the SEXUAL attraction, of the Human Female. Game has many applications and *differing styles*, or methods if you prefer, to boot. In that both Men and Women are different, differing styles of Game are paramount. So too are differing situations; some forms of Game are better suited for STRs as to opposed to LTRs, and of course the reverse can be said to be true.

    What has more than likely happened to you, was that a guy wasn’t calibrating correctly; using the wrong form of Game in the wrong venue and on the wrong Woman.

    Just like a plurality of Men respond to youth and fertility cues across cultures and climes, the same can be said about Women responding to a universal suite of traits sexually desirable Men have. Game has been able to isolate and identify these traits, and have distilled them into a learnable format for Men to acquire.

    There’s more to it, but I’ll hold here.

    O.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “Wait, a GIRL said that to you?!”

    Yeah, that’s one of the things I was trying to tell you – you really have no idea.

    Cuff,

    Thx for the backup, but the question is the morality/ethics of pursuing the woman, not just the flirting.

    Susan,

    “Jackie gave you reasons against it.”

    Now she has – she hadn’t really before. Is “It’s wrong” enough?

    “It’s hard for me to even imagine the circumstances – as a mother I would be deeply troubled if my 18 yo flirted with a man 24 years older than herself, and alarmed if he flirted back.”

    Her mother is the one reading 50 Shades.

    “Humbert Humbert.”

    Oh please. This woman is 18, not 14, has the body of Racquel Welch and from all indications has been putting it to very effective use. She’s entirely confident, together, and with solid plans for college and career.

    Young, attractive women are by and large the least innocent among us (by any definition of the word) and they will continue to act out more and more egregiously until their elders finally bring themselves to remove their blinders. Moral systems predicated on their innocence will be widely ignored not only by these young women themselves, but also anyone else who knows what is happening.

    The ignorance of the Jackies among us (love you, mean it, but you need some tough love on this) is doing great damage.

    Yes, I’m feeling tempted, but the main reason I originally posted it was to give a good young man who might be struggling as I did an idea of what it would take to build attraction, while also making yet another vain attempt to remove the blinders from those still in ignorance.

    Gratifying my ego? As I said, not really nearing perfection, although I’m not particularly proud of any of this.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “the followers of Christ will suffer for their beliefs”

    I’m fine with suffering for Christ, but not on behalf of a moribund moral system that seems to be impeding the achievement of my goals in life, including the Christian ones, rather than furthering them. Given past experience, the likelihood that she would actually benefit from dating me is not insignificant, especially since it is highly unlikely that she has marriage in mind.

    If pre-marital sex is wrong per se, then the case is easy, but there are plenty of fine Christians who do not accept that, and if so the case against action here becomes much more difficult. If Roissy ever had a “come to Susan” moment, these are the questions he’d be asking – I could really use some good answers.

  • Sai

    Wait, I’ve seen Rice n Beans post, but who is BAG LADY?

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    Or you could just try East Asia. Also, India. 🙂

    Are you Indian American?

  • Rice n Beans

    “My MILF neighbor told me in no uncertain terms that if she met a teen girl who wants to have sex, she would point them to anonymous birth control, rather than inform her parents, or try to stop her. After all, they’re going to do it anyway, and we have no right to stop them, she says.”

    Yeah, I don’t get this “they’re going to do it anyway” excuse. How do we know who’s going to do what anyway?

  • Cooper

    “Think about it. We live in a time when young men worship society’s most disordered individuals. (And young women sex them up.)”

    Which leads to the final dilemma – which is in the wrong?

    The way I see it, is there is only one of two truths to possibly extrapolate. Either: young women are typically wanting to sex up the wrong men OR young men are right in who they are selecting to worship.

    • The way I see it, is there is only one of two truths to possibly extrapolate. Either: young women are typically wanting to sex up the wrong men OR young men are right in who they are selecting to worship.

      The way I see it, they’re both at the bottom of the food chain, animals rutting in the gutter. There’s a whole lot of people not gorging on sex, by choice.

  • INTJ

    Sai is Plain Jane.

    Oh.

  • Sai

    #445 -INTJ
    Alas, I have no (known) affiliation with the people of the subcontinent. All I have is a stack of ever-growing books and an ever-growing sense of respect for the history and culture.

    I’m not Plain Jane, either. Sai is Sai, haha. I was looking for something I can’t even remember when I found this site and all the interesting information on it. I decided to lurk here from time to time.
    (I agree that no-fault divorce should choke and die.)

  • Jackie

    @Des

    Des, thank you for being rather gracious, with the exception of calling me “ignorant.” 😉 I would also like to thank you for being honest about your temptation and forthright.

    In response to your post:
    ““Jackie gave you reasons against it.”

    Now she has – she hadn’t really before. Is “It’s wrong” enough?”
    =============
    Well, I am not the one who made these rules. These are the beliefs of your chosen religion. It’s your avatar that believes that sexuality is best expressed within marriage! 😉
    ———————–
    “Her mother is the one reading 50 Shades.”
    Des, that makes it obvious: She has no moral guidance at home. Her mom should be an example, not a hindrance.

    She might be acting overly sexualized towards you because that is what is being reinforced at home. She is to be pitied– she needs sustenance and is being given porn. 🙁
    ===============
    “If pre-marital sex is wrong per se, then the case is easy, but there are plenty of fine Christians who do not accept that, and if so the case against action here becomes much more difficult.”

    Des, what scripture provides evidence for this position? I have found NOTHING that supports it. Please let me know.
    ====================
    “I’m fine with suffering for Christ, but not on behalf of a moribund moral system that seems to be impeding the achievement of my goals in life, including the Christian ones, rather than furthering them.”

    Isn’t our only goal to be seeking communion with God? I admit, I am distracted by worldly things OFTEN, and I struggle with this as well! But I know that our kingdom “is not of this world.”
    ==============
    ” the likelihood that she would actually benefit from dating me is not insignificant, especially since it is highly unlikely that she has marriage in mind.”

    Des, what evidence do you have for this hypothesis? That a 43 year old man would be “benefiting” a teenager by dating her, with no intention towards marriage?

    I would be really interested in parents’ reponses: Susan, Escoffier, Ted, Alias, J– how would you feel about a 40-something year old man thinking about your teenaged child (daughter) this way?

    Des, if your pastor supports you (I would like to hear Mrs. Pastor’s viewpoint!), then I will stand down. If there is scriptural authority supporting these actions, I will stand down.

    But if the only support is “because I want to,” I am afraid I will have to disagree.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Jackie,

    Men can absolutely learn to be socially dominant without actually sleeping with women.

    Until he actually has to sleep with a woman. Which is important, because it’s a guy’s responsibility to physically escalate.

    Again, I was doing fine, all systems firing, until it came time to physically escalate, because TALKING to a girl and being flirty is nothing like actually moving through the bases.

    So, Cooper, how quickly CAN you unhook a bra in the dark while you’re nervous because it’s the first time you’ve seen a pair of breasts in real life in 2 years?

    Cause you aren’t going to learn THAT by opening women on the subway and practicing a Cocky/Funny routine, and if you mess THAT up it’s going to be a turn-off. And I don’t give a shit what other people say about your virginity, the point is YOU don’t feel too great about it, and that’s going to fuck your shit up and complicate everything you do.

    So my advice? That virgin-tude and lack of sexual experience WILL handicap you. It will not kill you, but there is very little reason you should value it. You are giving up your attractiveness to a small section of women like those that inhabit HUS that you will probably never meet in real life, and gaining more attractiveness to the general population of women.

    That’s my take on it. What I would be careful about it is accumulating too many partners or thinking casual sex is going to make you a sex god. The second is idiotic, the first will damage your ability to emotionally attach to a woman.

    @Sai
    Apparently Sai is Plain Jane. I’ll take a stab at her question, though:
    “To all the posters who mention Game (sorry, I’m still learning about all this), where were you when you applied it? What sort of women responded -was there a lot of one race, or one age group? I ask because whenever a guy tried that dominance/mastery on me I did not like it and ended up saying in so many words “I’m going to stand/sit over there now.” Unless the guy was being a fool/dick/pest, in which case I told him so and then went to stand/sit over there. Maybe I am an anomaly.

    I don’t doubt that it works on some women, but again, on whom?”

    My “game” is extremely amateur, and I don’t even think of it as game anymore: what I do with women now is pretty heavily internalized unless I’ve just met them, and then there’s still some fear…but I am working on fixing that.

    Who does it “work” on? I guess that depends on what you mean by “work.” It has resulted in much, much greater positive reactions from women, IOIs included, and I have much, much better relationships with these women after applying some Game. These include:
    -A mid-level supervisor at my work, late 20s something UMC. Now engaged.
    -A few muslim virgins
    -A few catholic virgins
    – Another partying Muslim girl with some “experiences” but still N=1
    – A former frat girl slut who has been in a relationship for 3+ years
    -older women and mothers

    You know it is LEAST effective on?
    Club rats. Seriously. My friends run with a club-rat social circle that has a high level of promiscuity, complete with blowjobs in the club. My game, very amateurish as it is, is LEAST effective on the women that feminists assume it MUST work best on.

    My guess? These girls actually have a higher SMV and regularly get hit on by guys with much higher SMV than me, and my game is not tight enough to break through that. Not to mention that I look like a church boy, not a clubbing Jersey Shore knock-off.

    I think I knew I was doing better when people started arguing about whether I was a dick or confident. Though I think most people settled on “dick”:P

  • Rice n Beans

    Definite Beta Guy,
    “-A few muslim virgins
    -A few catholic virgins”

    OK. You know they are virgins … how?

    UMC means United Methodist Church, or what?

  • Sassy6519

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    My guess? These girls actually have a higher SMV and regularly get hit on by guys with much higher SMV than me, and my game is not tight enough to break through that. Not to mention that I look like a church boy, not a clubbing Jersey Shore knock-off.

    Haha!

    For what it’s worth, I think that the men on Jersey Shore are beyond gross.

    Still, there is truth to what you wrote.

    Women of high SMV have practically heard every compliment in the book, probably numerous times in fact. After awhile, compliments no longer surprise or faze them. They become numb to them, and it takes something a lot more surprising or shocking to break through.

    It’s a reason why negs can work with some women. They’re a bit shocking and can throw a woman off kilter.

    In my experience, it’s always refreshing to deal with a guy who doesn’t appear intimidated by me. He may find me attractive, but he composes himself in a way that signals confidence.

    Of course women want men to think that they are attractive. Women, however, just don’t like to feel like we are doing men a favor by allowing them to be in our presence.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “You *know* the standards of your Presbyterian church (fornication is wrong).”

    You know the number of single women under 40 in my (wonderful, 1000-member, chock full of Susans and Jackies) Presbyterian Church?

    Zero.

    I didn’t bring this darkness, just trying to find my way in it.

  • Cooper

    @ADBG
    I’m not sure if you thought I was actually on-board with the ladies here supporting Andrew – I wasn’t.
    I think what your saying is absolute true – it’s a huge handicap.

    RiceNBeans (around #450ish) asked why not work on goals and accomplishments? And Obsidian answered correctly in saying because a guy with a ton of accomplishments may still not attract

    That’s precisely why we shouldn’t encourage Andrew, or myself, in placing a value on virginity. Unless we’re certain women, at our age, are going to find having such “will power” attractive – which obviously we know isn’t the case – then any encouragement is real big disservice.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “I know skeezy when I see it. My daughter was a lifeguard and a middle aged “dad” taking an interest in her would have definitely been viewed in a poor light by her employer. It reminds me of dreading rides home from babysitting because the dad would sometimes flirt and try to act sexy.”

    Oh I totally get that – it feels skeezy to me too, but so does physically escalating via kino with someone I just met, but evidently I have to do that to prevent the chronic flaking. Sadly, it works.

    The thing is, if this were my daughter I’d much rather have her dating me than hooking up with the men I’ve seen her with. Of course at first she’d probably be doing both, but who knows if she would come to enjoy actual dates and conversation enough to start to require that from future suitors? Or to stop seeing them as too beta and disqualifying men who offer them?

    It’s really hard for me to see clearly that inaction is the better thing for her. As for me, I’m in the middle of a move downtown and the new job will probably open up a lot of new opportunities, so I almost certainly won’t be doing what I’m threatening to do here, but it’s surprised me how hard it is to come up with reasons why not.

  • Sai

    Re: Obsidian, A Definite Beta Guy

    So THAT’s how it works… Thanks for explaining.
    (If the girls don’t want you because you aren’t “Jersey Shore” enough I say good riddance.)
    (still not Jane, honest)

  • Rice n Beans

    “RiceNBeans (around #450ish) asked why not work on goals and accomplishments? And Obsidian answered correctly in saying because a guy with a ton of accomplishments may still not attract ”

    But he will be confident in his skills and dominant in the fields he is accomplished in. If he’s shy all he needs to learn is some good social skills, or hang out with shy women, in which case some good social skills will still be needed.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “Well, I am not the one who made these rules. These are the beliefs of your chosen religion. It’s your avatar that believes that sexuality is best expressed within marriage!”

    No doubt that is true. But we don’t always get the best in life.

    What if my lack of recent sexual experience is impeding my chances for marriage and her sexuality would be better expressed with me than those with whom she is currently expressing it? I’m aware that is presuming a lot, but if you put a gun to my head, that’s my best effort to discern the true situation.

    “She has no moral guidance at home. She might be acting overly sexualized towards you because that is what is being reinforced at home. She is to be pitied– she needs sustenance and is being given porn.”

    Oh she likely has moral guidance (she has solid college/career plans and comes across as very confident and competent, she takes good care of herself), its just that that moral system is sex positive, regardless of marriage.

    My guess is that at least some of the appeal of 50 Shades (and Twilight) is a simple craving for masculinity (she’s quite feminine – i.e. greater differentiation of gender roles) rather than raw physical lust alone. No doubt the latter is also involved.

    “Des, what scripture provides evidence for this position? I have found NOTHING that supports it. Please let me know.”

    Oh I’m sure they’ve come up with something. Obviously I haven’t found it persuasive or I would not have abstained as long as I have. The point is that the moral system to which you adhere has been almost entirely abandoned, to the extent that those who follow it will have difficulty finding mates – in the case of intellectual UMC professionals seeking likewise, great difficulty.

    The “plenty of women” to which you refer have remarkable difficulty working me into their busy schedules.

    “Isn’t our only goal to be seeking communion with God? I admit, I am distracted by worldly things OFTEN, and I struggle with this as well! But I know that our kingdom “is not of this world.””

    It’s not just our kingdom. Should I deny the children I’m having difficulty producing their place as well?

    “Des, what evidence do you have for this hypothesis? That a 43 year old man would be “benefiting” a teenager by dating her, with no intention towards marriage?”

    Again, I’m 42. If I had to guess, she probably puts me at about 35. Given her likely current sex life, based on the men I’ve seen her with and how they act, I have difficulty imagining how it would not benefit her. I’ve dated younger women before, though obviously not near this gap in age, and they tend to find it very enjoyable due to my varied interests.

    I probably should have married a couple of them.

    As for marriage in this case, who knows what the future holds? I’m assuming she would see me as one of her fun flings before she settles down after her career is established.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “I would like to hear Mrs. Pastor’s viewpoint!”

    I have no doubt she would be utterly mortified, but due to her feminism, not to any sense of traditional morality. After all, fornication is fine as long as you pick someone of the same age or gender.

    And seeing as how our church has no single female members under 40, she would speak with about as much authority on the subject as on the Higgs Boson.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sassy,

    No hard feelings either way with the club rats. They really do not have a high SMV. They just hang out with high SMV men. They aren’t very attractive to me, either. Bitchy, distant behavior is a huge turn-off.

    Likes attract likes, I guess. I’m not a clubber.

    I figured I might want to try open negs, but that’s something that makes me uncomfortable. Way easy to fuck that up as a noob.

    @ Cooper
    No, I know that you are mostly on board with not valuing virginity. I just want to use as an example. It’s okay to be dominant with women, can be learned. Sexual experience is taught by sexual experience, though, and that’s a critical weakness N=0 guys will have, and that’s something that’s not being pointed out.

    Just wanted to use you as an example. I figure you do not have awesome bra-undoing skills

  • Jackie

    Hey Des,

    I was just thinking about this conversation. I apologize if I was too harsh and judgmental towards you. You are, as you have described, in a really tough situation with absolutely no moral support, especially from the people who should be giving you the most.

    I am truly, truly sorry. It’s not right and it’s not just; you must feel like Job some days! (Minus the boils, sores, and deaths of oxen.)

    Here is where I come from: I was brought up in a very devout UMC Catholic family, with prayers before meals and nightly devotions, in addition to weekly Mass and Reconciliation. I know people thought my family was weird, too churchy, and definitely uncool.

    I lost my mom, spiritual mentor, professional mentor and grandparents all before I was old enough to drink. If I didn’t have God and my faith, I don’t know how I would have made it through without alcohol/drugs/something to numb myself. I believe my faith saved me from a very dark path.

    I was engaged to a man who I loved, very much, who encouraged me to resign my scholarship and drop out of school. I trusted him. And I was absolutely upfront with him with my beliefs, as well. The few people I mentioned my beliefs to, mocked me or thought I was totally lame.

    The week before our original wedding day, I got a 2am phonecall. I had left a message (not a text) that said, I love you. The girl he was having sex with intercepted it in the middle of the night, to tell me she was with him and wearing his shirt.

    That was that, obviously. The next week I had to stand up in my roommate’s wedding, and it was so incredibly difficult to stand there and smile, when some of those people who mocked me were gossiping about how I got cheated on.

    So I have felt like Job (or Job-ette), too.

    Does that mean that I can say, Well, that’s definitive proof! Is the only way to get married by having sex to “get it over with” and make myself acceptable? Has everything I’ve been taught a lie? Do I forsake my faith’s teachings because they are inconvenient, or go against the grain of society?

    In other words, what kind of God do I believe in, if I have to manipulate my faith to succeed in a fallen world? Does my faith only extend as far as convenience and the “SMP”?

    To me, the answer is, No. My trust is in God. Even if it means that I go pro with being a “cat lady” without marriage or kids and the manosphere gets to laugh at me. 😉

    As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I believe it will take a miracle for me to get married. So I am doing my best to make peace with things, either way.

    Des, if after prayer and asking God, you are led to have sex with this teenager, that is really between you and your conscience. I have said more than enough on the subject, and wish you the best in your journey.

    Peace, Des–

  • A Definite Beta Guy, not to be pedantic, but I’ve been wearing bras for quite a while now, and I still take off my own bra like a t-shirt because it’s just easier that way. Why does a guy need excellent bra-undoing skills?

  • Jackie, *big hugs*. You will definitely not end up a cat lady. There are lots of men who are looking for a girl just like you. I see a loving husband and adorable children in your future for sure!

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie 464

    Thanks for sharing some of your story. Sending a Colonel Brandon hug your way (definitely not a Willoughby hug). lol

    That was such a despicable thing your fiance did. I wish you never met him but I’m glad you found out before and not after the wedding.

  • Jackie, *big hugs*. You will definitely not end up a cat lady. There are lots of men who are looking for a girl just like you. I see a loving husband and adorable children in your future for sure!

    Cosign this. There is a saying in my country that “When God closes a door he opens a window” . It was a lot better that you found out before getting married than after giving this worthless man a kid or two isn’t it? And you survived and are putting yourself out there. I truly think is just a matter of time. Blessings! 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Hope, Ana, Han Solo

    Thanks, guys! *big hugs back* If only I had found HUS earlier! 😉

    Meanwhile, I am learning here every day. The articles and community here are awesome! And part of me is really looking forward to the day when I can send Susan an engagement pic, so I can tell everyone that “It CAN be done!”

    Later, gators! 😎

  • Abbot

    “the woman we end up with will probably be grateful of our knowledge, especially if she, herself is fairly inexperienced.”

    If she is “fairly inexperienced” [as solely and satisfactorily defined by the man] then he of course is ecstatic and will do all that he can to to please and keep this highly worthy prize

  • Ramble

    Jackie, that must have been really rough. Internet hugs and all that.

  • JutR

    Jackie, be thankful you found out about that man’s faults before you tied yourself to him. That was most likely the hand of God providing you with guidance.

    I had a friend who has a similar situation, except he had bought a house with his fiance, and 4 weeks before the wedding, she was acting strange. He began to ask questions, and found out she was sleeping with a bartender at the restaurant where she waited tables. He broke it off with her (at the cost of a great deal of mental anguish), and luckily, her dad was a good man, offset my buddies costs of moving out of the intolerable situation.

    He’s now married to a wonderful woman, with an 8 month old beautiful boy. He lives in a house that he and his wife bought at a great price, and put a lot of sweat labor to remodel. He stays at home as the primary parent, and they have worked out a great compromise to ensure that they will have a long lasting, loving relationship and a stable home for their children.

    So do not let your heart be heavy. You will not be a cat lady. God has bigger plans for you.

  • Andrew

    @Jackie
    “unless he is some sort of would-be polygamist”
    Lol, definitely not. I just want one and only one for the rest of my life. I’m so sorry for what you went through. But honestly, I think you would have a really high chance of finding someone in a LTR than someone like me. I’m sure you will find one. I just think girls tend to have it easier than guys in finding relationships whether it be LT or ST. For example, I use to work with this one girl who had 4 kids (2 biological and 2 adopted) and just got out of a 10+ year relationship. She complained how no guy would ever date someone like her who has 4 kids. I told her that she would have a higher chance of finding somebody than someone like me who’s still a virgin and hasn’t dated or been in a relationship for 7 years. In less than a month, she eventually found someone and a good guy mind you. So if a girl like her who has 4 kids can find someone, I’m sure you can too. You should be able to find or date someone within your denomination, if not outside of it (assuming that you found someone that you’re compatible with).

    @Cooper
    “Game works – there’s no doubt about that. It’s just I’m not a huge fan.”
    I don’t understand why would you advocate it in the first place if that’s how you feel. Are you planning to use some of these strategies in finding a potential LTR or for just some STRs?

    @OfftheCuff
    “One of the guys nailed, lose your V as quickly as possible, and then set about finding what you really want.”
    I have a hard time finding the logic in that. I know this one person who has sexual experience and told me one day that he’s glad that he’s had sex with the girls he’s had in the past. His reason was because it helped him figure out what he seeks for with woman in a LTR. I didn’t understand that logic because it would seem to me that you don’t have to have sexual experience to find out what kind of girl/woman you want in a LTR. Yet, with the current girl he’s with, he doesn’t see her as a LTR, which is funny because the girl thinks the opposite. He’s told her that on numerous occasions that this wasn’t going to work out, even before and after they messed around. But she deluded herself into agreeing with him and still dated him. He broke it off with her for a while, but then she became a complete mess and I guess out of pity decided to see her again. Like I said, I don’t see the logic in what you said.

    @Sai
    You don’t annoy me at all, lol. You’ve been really helpful and sincere about it. I just find it stupid that in this day and age most women think that a guy being a virgin is a turn off, as if fucking 10+ plus guys or probably getting gang banged by those same guys makes it any better. With all this talk about learning the game, I just feel more turned off by it. I like Rice n Beans perspective on having good social skills which I’m very confident in. In my previous job, I was reading Neil Strauss’ book about the game and a co-worker of mine noticed I was reading it and had a discussion with me about it. He was arguing how he favored a lot of the ideas in the book and said that monogamy is not real. The more I listened to this guy and how he applied a lot of those ideas to the girls he talked to, the more I got pissed off and decided not to finish the book and returned it to the library. It seems like the book applies to people who go out and party which goes against my Straight Edge beliefs. I don’t feel comfortable applying those ideas in real life situations because I’m not greedy and I’m not trying to rack up the pussy count. I just want one woman that I can enjoy all the fruits of relationship with like love, sex, doing cool activities, etc. If being a virgin makes me a loser in many eyes, so be it. At least I have my health and not have to worry about going to the clinic to get tested. I feel good about not hurting another girl’s feelings by putting her emotional state of mind at risk for selfish reasons. Also, I save myself the heartache of being with the wrong person that does not love me at all.

  • OffTheCuff

    Andrew, you are over-thinking things.

    Your friend is right, because he has a woman that he COULD have an LTR with if he so wanted, and you don’t.

    The reality is sexual attraction precedes having a relationship with the vast majority of women these days. Old-school courting, where you get to know each other before realizing attraction is there, is all but dead. Note I say attraction, not sex… however, if do you have sex then you likely have generated the necessary attraction and escalation from start to finish.

    For a man, the strategies to find a short-term mate are nearly identical for a long-term one, as you can always make something short longer. The hard part is getting her attracted to you, not her accepting your offer of monogamy.

    If you cannot generate attraction, then you have nearly zero chance at a having relationship.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Andrew

    For what it’s worth, my ex was a virgin when I met him. He was very much an “Alpha”, but he was also extremely picky with women. He chose not to sleep around, even though he had every opportunity to do so, and that was one of the things about him that was super attractive to me.

    I don’t think that a man needs to have sexual experience to be successful with women. It may help to foster attraction in your run-of-the-mill type of woman, but I highly doubt that it’s the type of woman you want to end up with in the long run.

    Women such as myself, Jackie, Anacaona, Hope, J, and others appreciate a man who hasn’t plowed through lots of women. Sure, women such as us may be rarer or harder to find, but I believe women such as us offer the best chance of having successful and happy marriages with men.

    If you want just any woman to be with, do as you wish. I think it’s important, however, for you to be aware of the idea that the women you ideally want have high standards for the men they involve themselves with. We want to find a man like you just as much as you want to find someone like us.

    The question is, do you continue on your current path, or do you change your course to pick an easier target?

  • Ramble

    For what it’s worth, my ex was a virgin when I met him. He was very much an “Alpha”, but he was also extremely picky with women.

    So, what initially attracted you to this average looking guy?

  • @Jackie
    Your experience was awful. I can see why it must make you despair at times. But I hope you stay optimistic, with an open heart, and that you keep taking advantage of the many opportunities that are still open to you.

  • Jason773

    Jackie,

    Wait, a GIRL said that to you?!

    Yup, a cute one at that. It was more of a shit test/funny response rather than a mean remark. Context is sometimes hard to get across.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    So, what initially attracted you to this average looking guy?

    Well, he wasn’t average looking. He was quite handsome, but he started talking to me about Star Wars in a bar, which threw me for a loop.

    I was drawn to his quiet confidence, and I was also drawn to the fact that he was very intelligent. On the first night we met, we talked about topics/issues that I had never been able to talk about with other men I had met before. He was a software programmer, but he also looked good enough to eat.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I honestly believed, initially, that he would be the man I would marry. He was everything that I wanted. He was physically attractive, intelligent, had a great career, and was well off financially. He was my “Mr. Darcy” for a time.

    I wonder sometimes whether or not I will meet another man like him, preferably without the bad aspects of him which prompted our breakup.

  • Ramble

    Well, he wasn’t average looking. He was quite handsome …

    I assumed as much. I was kind of teasing you.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    I assumed as much. I was kind of teasing you.

    I’m cool with that. I enjoy a good teasing every now and again.

  • @Jackie

    I would be really interested in parents’ reponses: Susan, Escoffier, Ted, Alias, J– how would you feel about a 40-something year old man thinking about your teenaged child (daughter) this way?

    I weighed in already, but here is how I feel about the issue:

    1. It is not normal or healthy for a teenager to be attracted to a 42 yo man. Period. If she expresses such attraction, something is wrong of the psychological variety.

    2. It is not admirable to pursue sex with someone who clearly has an unhealthy and disturbed expression of sexuality. It is perhaps understandable by a boy of her own age, but a man with judgment and experience should steer clear, or even admonish such a girl that her behavior is highly inappropriate.

    3. As a mother, I would see such a display from my daughter as profoundly indicative of requiring mental health intervention. I would regard any middle-aged man who expressed sexual interest (I don’t believe Desi did to her face) as a predatory sexual opportunist.

    4. Bottom line: A 24 year age difference between a teenage girl and a middle aged man having sex is well beyond the standard of ethical behavior. It makes me think of runaways who become prostitutes.

    5. Making assumptions about her behavior based on rumors at the pool, a curvaceous body type or reading material are invalid and do not justify sexual pursuit.

  • @Desiderius

    The thing is, if this were my daughter I’d much rather have her dating me than hooking up with the men I’ve seen her with. Of course at first she’d probably be doing both, but who knows if she would come to enjoy actual dates and conversation enough to start to require that from future suitors? Or to stop seeing them as too beta and disqualifying men who offer them?

    I’m at a loss for words.

    That is some serious and disturbing rationalization. At least Humbert Humbert was honest about his motives.

    I would rather have my daughter hooking up with a hipster pot-smoking drummer than dating a 42 yo man. Seriously.

  • @Jason

    (I actually didn’t go home with her, as I’ve been good to my changing ways, but I just like knowing I still got it).

    I don’t think you’ve mentioned your changing ways before. Last I heard you’d broken up with your gf. Can you explain what you’re thinking, and why you have decided to make a change? I’m curious about the male mindset here.

  • J

    @SW

    The trouble with the “divide by two and add seven” benchmark is that if by some tragedy you are I would become single again, the men we would attract would be dead.

  • Ted D

    For the record I would NOT be pleased if my now 18 year old daughter brought home a man my age and introduced him as her boyfriend. That being said, if she were 24 or older, I probably wouldn’t care so much. I wouldn’t necessarily be pleased, but it wouldn’t send up a shit-ton of red flags either.

    I remember once upon a time saying I would never get with a woman more than 5 years older/younger than myself. My fiance is 8 years younger. Not only am I OK with it, I tend to think of it as a bit of an accomplishment.

    Plus, she is younger than my ex-wife, so win/win!

    • For the record I would NOT be pleased if my now 18 year old daughter brought home a man my age and introduced him as her boyfriend. That being said, if she were 24 or older, I probably wouldn’t care so much. I wouldn’t necessarily be pleased, but it wouldn’t send up a shit-ton of red flags either.

      Agreed, it’s the teen thing that is really questionable. I don’t care how mature a good looks or acts at 18, her brain has not finished developing, especially the area responsible for sound judgment.

      I’m going to bow out of this convo b/c it’s a massive rabbit hole. I have spoken as a mother, a role I cannot divorce myself from.

  • The trouble with the “divide by two and add seven” benchmark is that if by some tragedy you are I would become single again, the men we would attract would be dead.

    Well that and that the age of consent should be 14.

  • Ramble

    re: Desi possibly being with some sexually active hot 18 year old.

    One thing I gathered from the story was that if Desi did pursue her, it would be in a manner more stable than she has likely been experiencing. That is, that she was possibly pursuing Desi for some hot sex, and he might be able to provide something more then simple sex.

    I am not saying that anyone has to like that scenario anymore than he and she hooking up, but, that was my understanding.

    And, Susan, I am not saying that you should like the scenario, but calling him a predator when she was pursuing him is a bit much.

  • Cooper

    “I don’t understand why would you advocate it in the first place if that’s how you feel. Are you planning to use some of these strategies in finding a potential LTR or for just some STRs?”

    I wasn’t advocating, I was pointing out that “learn game” is the only helpful advice your going to ever find, online. Also, I try to highlight the silliness around the fact that the only advice for men seeking LTR is to adopt STR strategies. This is what Game is – STR strategy. As OTC mentioned, whether looking for STR or LTR the advice is the same – Game.
    That’s why it’s so foolish for people to commend us, guys, for abstaining from casual sex, as if it has true LTR-value. The fact that the only counsel we get is Game dictates that we must master STR-strategies to gain access to LTRs. So, that suggested LTR-value of our abstinence is complete worthless since we must obtain sufficient STR-value first, in order to access the appreciation of the former. Am I making sense?

  • Cooper

    Andrew, I forgot to say, do stick around.

  • @Susan

    Personally, I think it’s a matter of personal choice, but an 18 yo brain is not fully mature. She’s not allowed to have a beer, but she is coming on to a man her father’s age. It’s more than a little odd.

    Her 18 year old brother has to register for the draft and she can be responsible for a nuclear reactor at 19 if she enlists now.

    Both can vote for president in less than 100 days.

    Personally, I find a lot of 22 year olds right out of college pretty immature, especially compared to 18 year olds I’ve known carrying rifles (or the equivalent depending on service) but our law considers them adults so I have a hard time blaming older people for reacting as if they are.

    • This convo about the lifeguard has gotten off track, like some camper’s version of “telephone.”

      Here is the convo:

      Her: What are you reading?

      Me: McLynn’s biography of Marcus Aurelius.

      Her: Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? (twirl hair, gaze into eyes)

      Me: No, I think it’s bullshit. (hold gaze)

      Her: It’s all about sex.

      Me: And fake dominance. Not interested.

      Her: What is real dominance?

      Me: A man who knows what he’s doing with a woman. (not the best answer, but what can you do?)

      Her: (wide-eyed silence, gaze, grin, licks lips) See you soon… (walks away)

      Without Desiderius’ editorial embelishments of sexual gazing, the only thing she did was mention 50 Shades. That’s hardly a proposition for sex or even a date.

      Desi mentioned dominance – I’m reminded of the Booth Jonathan scene in Girls. His offered definition about men “who know what they are doing with a woman” is out of bounds, IMO.

      Her response was to walk away. She sounds like a brat, and perhaps a tease, but I don’t think this signals interest. If that were real, she’d have handed her number over by now. In any case, it’s not Desi’s place to judge that dating or banging him would leave her better off than he found her.

      Is the parable of the Good Samaritan coming next?

  • @Jackie

    If you are OK with your kids being put in the same situation– a man 2 and a half times their age flirting with your teenage daughter, with no honorable intention towards her– it’s your business.

    Given women have decided my morals, values, and genes aren’t worth continuing to the next generation (in a weird way, even my own sister has agreed with them) I don’t see why I should worry about the children they did choose to have be protected by those same morals. values, and genes.

    If they’re not good enough to continue why are they good enough to enforce now?

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    3. As a mother, I would see such a display from my daughter as profoundly indicative of requiring mental health intervention. I would regard any middle-aged man who expressed sexual interest (I don’t believe Desi did to her face) as a predatory sexual opportunist.

    Look, I can understand why a parent wouldn’t want that from their daughter… but any man, regardless of his age, wanting to have sex with a hot girl who is both sexually and legally mature is not predatory. He’s normal.

    4. Bottom line: A 24 year age difference between a teenage girl and a middle aged man having sex is well beyond the standard of ethical behavior. It makes me think of runaways who become prostitutes.

    As long as there is consent between legal adults and no cheating involved, there’s nothing unethical about it. She’s an adult who is responsible for her own decisions.

    5. Making assumptions about her behavior based on rumors at the pool, a curvaceous body type or reading material are invalid and do not justify sexual pursuit.

    The premise that a guy has to justify sexual pursuit is how hopeless betas are created. If he’s attracted to her, and she consents as a legal adult, he doesn’t need to justify anything.

    I don’t meen to pick on you Susan, because your views are pretty common. But it’s an example of how society has demonized normal male sexuality.

    I’m not saying all 40+ year old guys need to go after 18 year old girls… but I’m saying they shouldn’t feel the least bit ashamed for being attracted to them, and shouldn’t be the least bit ashamed for taking action if the option is presented by another consenting adult.

    • Look, I can understand why a parent wouldn’t want that from their daughter… but any man, regardless of his age, wanting to have sex with a hot girl who is both sexually and legally mature is not predatory. He’s normal.

      The desire may be normal, but the pursuit of the opportunity is not, IMO.

      But it’s an example of how society has demonized normal male sexuality.

      I have been waiting for someone to make this point. I think it’s important to say that civilization depends on both men and women repressing many of their sexual urges.

      If you took a poll of men and asked them if they feel comfortable with a middle aged high school teacher having sex with a recent high school graduate, I think a very high percentage would say no.

      I think it’s because the odds of a girl that age being attracted to a much older man are so slim that it implies instability on her part, and that makes the sexual pursuit unseemly.

      Make her 21, and I have no problem. That’s what I consider the legal age of adulthood. For example, the Bill Murray/Scarlett J. romance in Translation was charming. Then again, he was a famous movie star. I doubt she would have been interested if he were just an aging businessman.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Agreed, it’s the teen thing that is really questionable. I don’t care how mature a good looks or acts at 18, her brain has not finished developing, especially the area responsible for sound judgment.

    So should we require children to live at home until they’re 21? Not let them vote until they’re 21?

    Either you’re an adult or you’re not.

    • @Jimmy

      So should we require children to live at home until they’re 21? Not let them vote until they’re 21?

      Either you’re an adult or you’re not.

      What does living at home have to do with adulthood? College kids leave home at 18, and I’ve already lamented the loss of in loco parentis. Clearly, they do require supervision at that age.

      FWIW, I don’t think people should vote or fight in combat before 21 either.

      And car rental companies consider the age of adulthood to be 25 🙂

  • Ted D

    “The premise that a guy has to justify sexual pursuit is how hopeless betas are created. If he’s attracted to her, and she consents as a legal adult, he doesn’t need to justify anything.”

    Although it contradicts my previous statement, I do agree with this. I don’t want MY daughter dating a 42yo guy, but other than that I don’t see a problem with it ethically or legally. If she is 18, she is legally an adult, and as such she can give consent to sex to any man she deems worthy based on whatever criteria she chooses. And, I would NOT hold it against any man to try and get with an 18yo that he finds attractive sexually. Of course I’m talking in principle, assuming there is nothing sneaky or underhanded going on.

    The reason for my dual thought on this is simple: MY daughter is MY concern. Other people’s daughters are THEIR concern. If they did their job, she shouldn’t be bringing home a man her father’s age. I personally wouldn’t pursue such a young woman, but that is because I would want to have intelligent conversations with her when we weren’t having sex. Based on my discussions with my own daughter and her friends, I can’t imagine what we would talk about during non-sexy time. Since I don’t do casual, there would be no booty calls or “hit it and quit it”.

    • The reason for my dual thought on this is simple: MY daughter is MY concern. Other people’s daughters are THEIR concern.

      Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I don’t think you’ve mentioned your changing ways before. Last I heard you’d broken up with your gf. Can you explain what you’re thinking, and why you have decided to make a change? I’m curious about the male mindset here.

    The biggest thing that I’m trying to get more comfortable with is the ability to be alone, and this is in respect to both male friends and females. I’ve always done really well by having a set routine and making plans, and I’ve always dreaded heading into a weekend and not having something to do or look forward to. Before I moved after college this was generally filled with friends and girls, and after I moved this need was mostly filled by girls, especially in the fall.

    Now I’m taking a more relaxed approach, trying to be more comfortable with time to myself, and I only want to invite girls into my life if I actually want to spend time with them and not just because I need a time filler.

    Also, I’m backing off the hookup route. I still go out, get numbers if I feel so inclined (only if I intend to set something up) and have a good time, but I’m calming down because I think it’ll be better for a number of reasons. The situation I described is actually the third time in the past 3 months where I’ve turned down a presumed ONS, and I’m completely fine with that.

    Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.

    We’ll see how this all plays out.

    • @Jason

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really respect your trying to work on yourself to feel more comfortable being alone. I recall going through a similar phase when I was around your age and found it immensely helpful. To this day, I value my alone time very much. Good luck.

  • Jackie

    JutR, Ramble, Bellita

    Thanks, you guys! *hugs back*

    Bellita, you are right about focusing on the opportunities and chances that are here right now. There is a TON of stuff to be grateful for!

    To quote from my beloved _North and South_ (British book & film, Susan thinks it’s cool, too): I’m looking towards the future!
    😎

  • Jackie

    @Jason
    “The biggest thing that I’m trying to get more comfortable with is the ability to be alone, and this is in respect to both male friends and females. … I’ve always dreaded heading into a weekend and not having something to do or look forward to.”
    ==========
    Jason, I think you’ve made an awesome decision, one that will help you in many ways. We can find out who we really are when we are not “doing” and “going” all the time. It will probably feel weird and uncomfortable at first– you’re basically living out a meditation practice. Cool!

    You’ve also given me a lot to think about and a new viewpoint. So, thanks! 🙂
    Good luck and keep up posted!
    😀

  • Jackie

    @Herb
    ” I don’t see why I should worry about the children they did choose to have be protected by those same morals. values, and genes.

    If they’re not good enough to continue why are they good enough to enforce now?”
    ========
    Holy crap, what an unfortunate viewpoint! Herb, has something happened? I thought everything was going well with you and your GF? 🙁

    The answer to your question is:
    Integrity

    You hold yourself to a high standard not in some kind of “quid pro quo” where someone pays you back, or has to earn it.

    A person with integrity will hold themselves to that standard–even if the entire world is crumbling around them– not because of others’ worthiness, but because of their own.

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “The reason for my dual thought on this is simple: MY daughter is MY concern. Other people’s daughters are THEIR concern.

    Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?”
    ============
    WELL SAID.

    I don’t know why there is such an “I’ve got mine, to hell with you!” mentality, especially on the ‘sphere. (Ted, you are constantly reminding us of your ethics, and exhorting a return to Biblical morality. The basic underpinning of the whole system is “love thy neighbor as thyself.”)

    My mentor, Sister S, recommended two books to me. Both talk about how we destroy the fabric of society when we focus on ourselves, refusing to acknowledge our connectedness to others. It hurts us mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and FISCALLY. Basically, we’re all in this together!

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    What does living at home have to do with adulthood? College kids leave home at 18, and I’ve already lamented the loss of in loco parentis. Clearly, they do require supervision at that age.

    FWIW, I don’t think people should vote or fight in combat before 21 either.

    Well I’m glad you’re consistent. With the “living at home”, that was more along the lines of: Should parents be legally and financially responsible for their children until 21, instead of 18?

    If you took a poll of men and asked them if they feel comfortable with a middle aged high school teacher having sex with a recent high school graduate, I think a very high percentage would say no.

    Well sure, when you word it that way. It makes it sound like he’s having sex with a current student, which brings up conflict of interest and sexual harassment concerns.

    But his being a teacher had nothing to do with the interaction IRL.

    Here’s a more appropriate question:

    Is it wrong for a 40 year old guy to accept the sexual advances of a hot, physically mature 18 year old girl?

    I think you’d see far fewer guys say it’s wrong. And I also think a good percentage of the ones who say it is wrong would answer that way because it’s what they’ve been conditioned to believe as the socially acceptable answer. I know I would’ve answered that way in the past during my beta days.

    Again, this goes back to why I dislike surveys asking about hypothetical behavior.

    • @Jimmy

      With the “living at home”, that was more along the lines of: Should parents be legally and financially responsible for their children until 21, instead of 18?

      Very definitely. I recall being told clearly when I was growing up that I would need to live independently as an adult when I turned 21. Obamacare provides for kids being on their parents’ health insurance to age 26!

      Is it wrong for a 40 year old guy to accept the sexual advances of a hot, physically mature 18 year old girl?

      First, she didn’t make sexual advances. Second, it’s not illegal, so we’re talking about ethics.

      Does it make a difference if she’s a stripper? A girl who graduated in late June vs. late May? A lifeguard in a red one-piece with a whistle around her neck? A drug addict?

      it’s what they’ve been conditioned to believe as the socially acceptable answer. I know I would’ve answered that way in the past during my beta days.

      It’s socially acceptable because a civilized society has morals. The “dirty old man” meme has been around forever, and no one really believes that women at their physical peak select men their father’s age unless they’re troubled or are being forced into an arranged marriage.

      This sounds like another example of “alpha” morals being considerably more flexible and fluid. This kind of prioritization of “sexual access” regardless of what’s good for the individual is repellent to me. As is the justification that such activities would be beneficial for the girl.
      For the record, I would be equally disgusted with a 40 yo woman having sex with an 18 yo boy, no matter how interested he was.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    Maybe 18 year olds acted differently in your day then they do now?

    When I think of myself and my friends at 18, or see the 18 year olds on my campus today, “innocent” and “naive” are not words that come to mind.

    • When I think of myself and my friends at 18, or see the 18 year olds on my campus today, “innocent” and “naive” are not words that come to mind.

      That’s proof of immaturity! As I said, 18 yo do not have fully mature brains for making good judgments. Removing supervision from college campuses is why we have binge drinking (a college shrink told me he estimates that 1/3 of the students at his school are future alcoholics) and hookup culture. We gave them the freedom to make bad choices and they have complied with enthusiasm.

  • Jackie

    @JH

    Wow, Jimmy, I’d like to see you answer this question again in 20 or so years, once you have a daughter of your own!

    It doesn’t matter WHO makes the advances, the onus is on the older person to say, Hey, this is not balanced, and cut it off at the past.

    Because it’s not balanced: Emotionally (I would *hope* that a middle-aged man and teen girl are not emotional equals), mentally or life-experience wise.

    The power differential is just too great– there can never be true equality. It is lopsided, which makes it prime ground for dysfunction. The teenager girls I knew in this situation were ALWAYS– 100%– not balanced. Daddy issues, abuse or trauma was in their pasts, ALWAYS.

    Yesterday we were talking about Lolita. Jimmy. I was reading the way one critic describes Humbert and his relationship to Lolita:

    “It never occurs to him to consider her as a human being, or as anything but a dream-figment made flesh.”

    Or as a way to get “tight Game.”

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    Maybe it’s unusual, but at about the time I turned 16 I was told that I was about to become an adult, and with that came all the responsibilities and liabilities of being an adult.

    This came from family, school, community, etc….

    So when I hear people making excuses for young people’s supposed lack of maturity, I’m really unsympathetic. I see it as a copout.

    Sure, I did a few dumb things in those years, but ultimately I was 100% responsible for that behavior by my own choosing. Not my parents, not my teachers, not my government leaders. So I should have to stand by it.

    • Maybe it’s unusual, but at about the time I turned 16 I was told that I was about to become an adult, and with that came all the responsibilities and liabilities of being an adult.

      I think that is unusual. My generation has raised the most coddled, helicoptered, micromanaged generation in history. Imagine if the average age at marriage went back to 22 for men and 20 for women, as it was in 1960. Unthinkable!

  • bobbyB

    So 41% of guys don’t care if their wife has had more than 40 guys- like full sex?

    They aint tellin the truth- it must matter a bit surely?

    I mean you know, 40 different dicks and semen and stuff- that dont sound so good,,,

    Where do you get the 41% from?

    Either way, I can’t imagine that promiscuity wouldn’t be a concern for any man looking to partner with a woman in marriage.

    That said, there are situations in which a woman can show such obvious and intense attraction, adoration, and loyalty to a man, that her previous track record is thought to be of much less consequence than it would have been otherwise. It’s difficult to doubt a woman who seems so taken with you, you know?

  • @Jackie

    Holy crap, what an unfortunate viewpoint! Herb, has something happened? I thought everything was going well with you and your GF? 🙁

    Everything is fine.

    She never wanted children. She’s 41 and I’m 45. Even if she wanted to have children we’re too old to responsibly start a family.

    Doesn’t mean I didn’t want them.

    But women have 100% authority on which men carry on into the next generation. My values, genes, and believes were found wanting.

    My money, however, has not been.

    This does not incline me to think protecting their children is very important. If what I bring to the table isn’t good enough to create children how is it good enough to protect them.

    The answer to your question is:
    Integrity

    You hold yourself to a high standard not in some kind of “quid pro quo” where someone pays you back, or has to earn it.

    I do. I don’t chase 25 year olds, much less 18 year olds. I have even expressed, more than once, strong disquiet over the large number of people who enter the S&M community at 18. I think you need some life experience before doing something like that. As a result I’m somewhat protective of “our kids” much as I have been of teenagers entering the goth scene when I was out and active more.

    However, that protection is based on community and seeing a community I value continuing.

    For the general population, however, I see no need to action strongly. Women who are of the cut who have called me geek, loser, bigot, fag, caveman, and so on, wanted me to be emotional support while they banged the badboy, or who valued fun over responsibility have no claim on

    While they have used the government to extract my resources to help pay for the feral children they got via their choices it is unreasonable that they should expect my voluntary enlistment in protecting the daughters they were too busy to raise from men happy to take advantage of feral 18 year olds.

    For nearly a decade I have said the most dangerous thing in the world are unattached men. We have no long term future (ie, beyond our death) to care about and no one. Even if the majority of us won’t use that freedom to abuse others we have no reason to protect women from the minority. We have plenty of reasons not to protect women from them.

    A person with integrity will hold themselves to that standard–even if the entire world is crumbling around them– not because of others’ worthiness, but because of their own.

    I have come to have one answer to people who use my values to demand I defend them from the consequences of their choices while they spit upon me:

    “ Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    I will not be torn to pieces for the benefit of people who rejected me and what I hold dear. I will stand apart, as they required, and leave them in peace.

  • Wudang

    Andrew, if you want to compensate for the lack of experience you will have by keeping your virginity put even more effort into inner game and deeper foundation and self development and attractiveness. Most certainly lift weights and learn a martial art. Both will naturally increase dominance and confidence. Follow Ians advice and limit masturbation, A LOT. It is common finding among a subgroup of PUAs that have experimented with this that it does help a lot and my own experience confirms this. Limiting it builds up some sort of hormonal charge that gives you more energy and vitality, paradoxically gives you a more sexual vibe, makes you a lot less needy, more confident, more relaxed++.

    The book Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden is a big favorite of mine and often recommended by others. It does not go the route of just positive thinking but gives you reason to become confident. It also makes you into a man a woman can trust in the sense she trusts a very masculine man.

    Check out the Rawness (Susan links to it) and delve into some of the psychological self help tools he suggests in some of his posts.

    Also, learn to dance salsa or some other dance that teaches some sensuality.

  • Hendrix,

    Is it wrong for a 40 year old guy to accept the sexual advances of a hot, physically mature 18 year old girl?

    I think you’d see far fewer guys say it’s wrong. And I also think a good percentage of the ones who say it is wrong would answer that way because it’s what they’ve been conditioned to believe as the socially acceptable answer. I know I would’ve answered that way in the past during my beta days.

    It would be tempting for any man at any age to give in to the advances of a hot, physically mature woman. That said, it’s been my experience that 5 minutes of conversation with even the hottest 18 yr old girl is more than enough to reveal that she is a “girl” and not a “woman.”

    You can argue whether this is biological or cultural, but whatever the case, girls (and boys) at that age are not mature. I’m only 2 years shy of 40, and not immune to the physical graces of 18 year old girls, I think it’s safe to say that I would avoid getting mixed up even for the night with anyone who isn’t at least a few years into her twenties.

  • Andrew

    @Cooper
    “That’s why it’s so foolish for people to commend us, guys, for abstaining from casual sex, as if it has true LTR-value. The fact that the only counsel we get is Game dictates that we must master STR-strategies to gain access to LTRs. So, that suggested LTR-value of our abstinence is complete worthless since we must obtain sufficient STR-value first, in order to access the appreciation of the former. Am I making sense?”
    Yeah it does.

    “Beware of anyone here stroking your ego about saving yourself being a plus, it is misleading.”
    I’m starting to understand that whole lot more now. Thanks for the words of wisdom. I’ll definitely keep that in mind.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Wow, Jimmy, I’d like to see you answer this question again in 20 or so years, once you have a daughter of your own!

    I actually noted that I completely understand why a parent wouldn’t want that for their daughter. And I agree that I think I would feel the same if placed in that position.

    But that’s an emotional response. I’m trying to take a detached, logical view of the situation. And I still think that as long as there is consent between two legal adults, there is nothing ethically wrong with the man’s behavior. It’s not his responsibility to save the world or prevent other people from self-destructive behavior.

    It doesn’t matter WHO makes the advances, the onus is on the older person to say, Hey, this is not balanced, and cut it off at the past.

    Again, I disagree. They’re both legal adults, both fully capable of making their own decisions, and both responsible for those decisions.

    The power differential is just too great– there can never be true equality. It is lopsided, which makes it prime ground for dysfunction.

    Barring a few exceptions, nobody is more socially and sexually powerful as a hot 16-25 year old girl. And most of them are fully aware of it.

    The teenager girls I knew in this situation were ALWAYS– 100%– not balanced. Daddy issues, abuse or trauma was in their pasts, ALWAYS.

    That’s their problem to fix, not his.

    It never occurs to him to consider her as a human being, or as anything but a dream-figment made flesh .Or as a way to get “tight Game.”

    So? If he doesn’t use any kind of explicit deception, he can think of her any way he wants. And vice versa. Again, as long as he’s not actively deceiving her, it’s not his responsibility to ensure that she doesn’t get a bad deal. And vice versa.

    • Barring a few exceptions, nobody is more socially and sexually powerful as a hot 16-25 year old girl. And most of them are fully aware of it.

      So you don’t Bill Clinton did anything wrong in having sex with an intern?

    • Again, as long as he’s not actively deceiving her, it’s not his responsibility to ensure that she doesn’t get a bad deal. And vice versa.

      So you reject the Golden Rule as a moral standard?

  • Jackie

    @Jimmy
    “about the time I turned 16 I was told that I was about to become an adult, and with that came all the responsibilities and liabilities of being an adult.”

    That is interesting! How did your parents put this into practice?

    I presume you were paying some kind of rent/% of the mortgage, % of the utilities and putting money towards the grocery bill?

    If so, how did you work and balance school? I would imagine you would have either worked a ton of hours or found a lucrative position.

  • @Scot

    It would be tempting for any man at any age to give in to the advances of a hot, physically mature woman. That said, it’s been my experience that 5 minutes of conversation with even the hottest 18 yr old girl is more than enough to reveal that she is a “girl” and not a “woman.”

    This is the core truth.

    I think little of the man my age who chases 18 year olds (and have since about 30) because of how much he reveals about himself and how little there is to him. While in the occasional guy mood I’ll joke such women are fun if you carry a ball gag the joke is meant to speak as much about why I am uninterested in them despite looks they might bring to the table.

    Hell, having been jamming on Jeff Wayne’s War of the Worlds for a week I found out last Friday that none of my coworkers had heard of it despite being age peers. Sure, it came out in 1977 but it is the 38th best selling album in UK history.

    If people my age often don’t understand what I’m talking about how much worse can it be with an 18 year old.

    Not to mention although I love the movie Guenevere I would not want to be Connie.

  • @Jackie

    It doesn’t matter WHO makes the advances, the onus is on the older person to say, Hey, this is not balanced, and cut it off at the past.

    Feminists manned the barricades to eliminate that standard en mass in 1998.

    Having saved their alpha they cannot complain that other men have learned from it.

    Even if her interviews last year prove just how damaged the woman that girl became is.

  • Jackie

    @Jimmy
    ” nobody is more socially and sexually powerful as a hot 16-25 year old girl. And most of them are fully aware of it.”

    Socially powerful maybe on a HS campus or for getting invited to a frat party. But in the real world?

    Let me tell you something: Social power is not free drinks or being paid for on a date. The person with the power is the one paying the bills.

    (I have never felt “powerful” as much as “vulnerable” when I am walking by myself, especially at night. )

    Besides that, it’s not like she can convert this “power” into cash or any kind of fungible currency; it is entirely dependent on what men choose to do.

    There are times (like now, for example) that I really wish we had to switch places for a day. There is this book, _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by Ursula LeGuin. Sci-Fi. It describes a people whose gender morphs by the moon cycles– male one month, female the next. (It’s a fascinating book.)

    I wish men could see that for all the “perks” of things like free drinks (with the intention of getting the girl intoxicated) there are drawbacks. Usually there is an expectation of quid pro quo, at some level.

    The old adage is very true: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

  • Jackie

    @Jimmy
    “The teenager girls I knew in this situation were ALWAYS– 100%– not balanced. Daddy issues, abuse or trauma was in their pasts, ALWAYS.

    That’s their problem to fix, not his.”
    ============
    True, they need to resolve their issue.

    But dating this guy is not going to do that. In all likelihood, he is going to make it worse. Someone with these issues, esp. past trauma, should not be dating at all until they are healthier.

    Jimmy, you seem to be confusing “not illegal” with “ethical.”

  • @Susan

    So you don’t Bill Clinton did anything wrong in having sex with an intern?

    I was called enough names and excluded from enough conversations (try having to apologize to wife’s uncle at Christmas for getting mad because he called you a Nazi to maintain family peace) to realize whatever I think I should STFU.

    HUS is the first place I’ve openly discussed social issues and politics in years and a tentative step into a social commentary link on G+ yesterday reminded me why I quit.

    Women are so damned focused on Roe they’ll uphold a classic dirty old man ruining a young girl for a less than complete BJ they can have the world that creates.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    So you don’t Bill Clinton did anything wrong in having sex with an intern?

    Professionally it was wrong.

    Morally, it was wrong because he was married.

    If you take away the fact that he was married, simply having sex with a young woman was not morally wrong. She was doing exactly what she wanted to do.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    And I did say “barring a few exceptions”… the most powerful man in the world is surely one of them.

  • Andrew

    @Wudang
    Lifting weights and martial arts is not an issue for me because I’ve been training since high school and still do to this day. As far as self development is concerned, I wouldn’t be who I am now if I didn’t go through the experiences that I had to deal with growing up that only a few can claim. I’m glad to be myself at this moment in my life and could care less if anybody makes fun of me. I definitely have no issue when it comes to my sense of confidence especially in regards to who I am as a person. But is it wrong for me to think that women do consider factors like sexual experience, religion, skin color, etc when it comes to pursuing an LTR that might possibly hinder me?
    I’ll definitely check out that book you mentioned. Thanks for the recommendation.

    • @Andrew

      Based on your strong sense of self and comfort in your own skin, I think you can pull off being a virgin with the right girl. Avoid sluts and seek a woman who is a virgin herself, or at least very inexperienced sexually. As for religion and skin color, that’s a matter of personal taste and individual attraction triggers.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    So you reject the Golden Rule as a moral standard?

    He wants sex from her, and she wants sex from him. They trade sex for sex. That seems to meet golden rule standards to me.

    This is a post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world. The old social contracts and rules are gone.

    You’re not asking for the golden rule. You’re asking him to put her interests ahead of his… “take one for the team.” That would be admirable, but I don’t think he has to go that far to remain ethical.

    • This is a post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world. The old social contracts and rules are gone.

      You’re not asking for the golden rule. You’re asking him to put her interests ahead of his… “take one for the team.” That would be admirable, but I don’t think he has to go that far to remain ethical.

      I would argue that his contributing to her issues, whether it is a matter of self-loathing, PTSD as a result of abuse, bad family life, whatever – is not in his best interest unless he lacks empathy. I feel that it is in my best interest not to take advantage of someone weaker, less intelligent, or less sane than myself, because when I have, I’ve felt really crappy about it. It’s a character issue, and one’s view will depend entirely on what one believes constitutes good character.

      I do find it surprising that an aggressively Christian commenter is the subject of this debate, but I’ll leave this to the philosophers. It creeps me out, that’s the bottom line, but I’m only speaking for myself.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    That is interesting! How did your parents put this into practice?

    I presume you were paying some kind of rent/% of the mortgage, % of the utilities and putting money towards the grocery bill?

    If so, how did you work and balance school? I would imagine you would have either worked a ton of hours or found a lucrative position.

    Fortunately I never had to pay the mortgage. Although I did get a job as soon as I was of legal age.

    Their argument was more about being accountable for my choices and not having the option of making excuses or blaming anyone else. And as I said, this was reinforced at my school, jobs, etc.

    As far as getting through college and grad school: scholarships, assistantships, and loans. Pretty standard.

  • @Jimmy

    You’re not asking for the golden rule. You’re asking him to put her interests ahead of his… “take one for the team.” That would be admirable, but I don’t think he has to go that far to remain ethical.

    I’ll go further and say any team that wants that has to provide something to people who are supposed to take one for it.

    Right now we’re dealing with feminists complaining the men in Aurora who jumped in front of others are being celebrated as heroic men and leaving out women (none of whom did the same). Just a few months ago women were complaining about men pushing women out of the way as that cruise liner sank (and lots of us men wished they’d been wearing “this is a what a feminist looks like” shirts).

    In a world where what ever men do is wrong how can people be surprised they decide to do what they enjoy the most. If you’re going to do the time you might as well do the crime.

    • I’ll go further and say any team that wants that has to provide something to people who are supposed to take one for it.

      How is not having sex with a teenager taking one for the team? When Desi said this I thought he was referring to the “team” of Christian men.

      Just a few months ago women were complaining about men pushing women out of the way as that cruise liner sank

      There were men who knocked grandmas over on that ship. They ran roughshod over everyone smaller in an “every man for himself” melee. It was chaos, and the actions of those men increased the risk of everyone by interrupting what should have been an orderly process. The captain was among the offenders. They were bullies, plain and simple.

  • Rice n Beans

    “There is this book, _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by Ursula LeGuin. Sci-Fi. It describes a people whose gender morphs by the moon cycles– male one month, female the next. (It’s a fascinating book.)”

    Sounds good, I’ll check it out. And I agree with all of the rest of what you wrote. Just because a bunch of horny dudes want to fuck them, either consensually or not, doesn’t make young women socially powerful. If anything it makes them socially vulnerable.

  • Sai

    #533 -Herb

    WHAT

    That’s a joke, right?
    It’s not a joke… T_T

    I can’t be a feminist. What’s the other word… masculist?

  • @Sai

    http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-07-25/the-soapbox-the-aurora-shooting-the-myth-of-mens-obligation-to-be-heroes/

    I can respect and be touched by these men’s sacrifices. But I’m also wary of some byproducts of the heroism myth, the idea that a few good men will have courage under fire and put “women and children first.” The Post crowed over these men’s “old-fashioned chivalry,” which are funny words to use, when you get right down to it. Why does masculinity have to have anything to do with heroic behavior? Their sacrifice was noble, sure. But in every telling of the “boyfriends risked their lives” story — and every boyfriend who then tells his girlfriend, “Sweetie, I would have done the same for you!” — there’s an implication that heroism is a gendered concept.

    Heroism has never had a gender: just tell that to Harriet Tubman, Clara Barton, or any of the female soldiers who risk their lives daily in our military. But the “white knight in shining armor” narrative is gendered. And it keeps being repeated because it’s a feel-good story — when we desperately need one in the wake of a national tragedy — and it’s a familiar, comforting story. Our lives revolve around stories, especially ones we know (myths) which help us make sense of the senseless; we would all like to think there is some order in the universe.

    But she really seals the deal with this one:

    I’ve been thinking a lot in recent days, too, about Jamie Rohrs, who left his child and girlfriend behind in the theater, got into his car, and drove away. He’s been getting a lot of flack for not behaving in the most noble of ways. Who knows how any of us would have reacted in that scenario? I would like to think that I would not have behaved as he did. And yet I feel bad for him too — he did, in my opinion, the wrong thing by leaving his loved ones behind in the theater and driving off. But there shouldn’t have to be this added burden of scorn on him because he acted “like a pussy,” as I’ve heard him called. He’s a human. He freaked out. That’s real life — not the perpetuation of a myth.

    See, all men are the same and no need to encourage them to be heroic or value those who are. I mean, who knows if another time they wouldn’t have been just like the badboy the one girl had a couple of kids with Note, from what I can find out the men in question did not pass their genes, much less values and virtues, into the next generation. The women hadn’t deemed them worthy yet, but the badboy type who ran away. Don’t worry ladies, he’s already passed his on twice.

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew Tim Tebow is one of the most desired athletes and is a virgin. Why is he desired? Because he’s a take-charge, sexy, virtuous star athlete (even if his passing skills are suspect). He’s a classic example of the “virtuous alpha.” He doesn’t apologize for being a virgin and has a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. This attitude is what should be emulated, IMO.

    As others have said many women assume that nearly ALL men want to get laid whenever they can and so they’re interpreting the voluntary virgin as if he were an involuntary virgin. Since this is the assumed point of view you will have to internally be completely mentally strong about your beliefs and choices so that when the moment comes you’re frame of mind is strong enough to make her realize that you’re a virgin because of strength, not because of weakness. You need to really believe and know that you’re sexy and will please your future woman when the time comes but that you are waiting to find the right girl who is lucky enough to have you. Any kind of “wimpy” wondering whether the girl will accept you or find you sexy or want to be with you (and especially transmitting that through body language or speech) will make it more likely for her to put you back in the assumed “guy who can’t get laid because he’s not attractive enough” category. Once again, Tim Tebow is certainly not in this category.

    Are you looking for a fellow virgin? If so, then things are probably easier. If not, then I would wait for the right moment to reveal that you’re a virgin. Are you set on waiting til marriage or only until you find the right one and are in a committed relationship? I can see that some women who would not want to be in an LTR w/o sex but there are many who would if they’re attracted to you strongly enough.

    So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.

    Somewhat related, I don’t drink but I have gone out with or dated lots of women who drink. There were a couple gf’s that wanted to get me to drink, not in a bastardly way, but more out of a thinking it would make me enjoy life more. I never gave in and just teased them that they were trying to get me drunk so they could take advantage of me. Overall, I think the man’s frame of mind and overall attractiveness can overcome some of these other issues. Of course, there are some women for whom a non-drinker or a no-sex-until-marriage man would be a no go no matter how attractive he is. If you are more of the type that is simply waiting to be in an LTR before sex then the no sex thing in the relationship before marriage is moot and many women will be glad you’re not a manwhore, as long as you’re sufficiently attractive and confident to make her fall in love with you.

    Good luck and feel free to ask or clarify anything.

  • Just a thought

    Andrew, you’re straightedge? Meaning you don’t drink or use drugs either? Cool. I don’t drink or use recreational drugs in college either. I thought I was the only person who thought that way.

    Wherein comes an answer to your dilemma. Don’

  • For nearly a decade I have said the most dangerous thing in the world are unattached men. We have no long term future (ie, beyond our death) to care about and no one. Even if the majority of us won’t use that freedom to abuse others we have no reason to protect women from the minority. We have plenty of reasons not to protect women from them.

    Most governments do know this hence the crisis in countries like China and/o India where the males have no females to pair bond. Our times are creating a perfect storm of future chaos with the OOW epidemy, the divorces and the growing numbers of men leaving out the dating scene for good. The prediction of two classes severely separated is looking more and more plausible by the minute.

    If you’re going to do the time you might as well do the crime.

    “In for a pound, in for a penny”

  • Just a thought

    Sorry, my post got cut off.
    I meant don’t tell girls you are a virgin. Tell them you are straight edge and that straight edge extends to sex. It will attract more girls.
    Ex.
    Convo 1
    Girl: ” I’d like to get to know you better” (flirts with her eyes)
    You: “Um, I’m a virgin and I only want to have sex with someone I love.”

    Convo 2
    Girl: I’d like to get to know you better ( eye-flirt)
    You: I’m straightedge. I don’t do hookups.
    Girl: What is that?
    You: Check it up/ ( you can neg her a bit here)
    Kiss her on the cheek ( sexually escalate)
    then say “bye”

    Here’s why convo 2 works better than convo one. In the first convo you act insecure about your lack of sex. You say um, you look down and you give a classic reason to defer from sex , “I want a real relationship.”

    In convo 2, you own your virginity and make it sexy. Instead of just being a virgin, you are “straight edge”, it’s part of a movement, it’s different, it’s mysterious, and she knows nothing about it. You gain dominance, make her look inadequate/slutty. You force her to chase you instead of the other way round. You then kiss her, ( sexually escalation) , so she knows the sex can happen and then walk away leaving her full of questions. So, maybe I’m wrong, you can work this virginity angle, but it’s all in the framing. However you cannot wait until marriage, but you could probably wait till you find a girl you love.

  • Sai

    I had no idea there was a “straight edge” movement. I’ll have about 3 drinks a year, and congratulate those who have even less and don’t feel uncool. (Drugs… no. I have known too many cops and don’t wish to see their ugly sides.)

    #536 -Herb
    …It looks like the men’s movement is going to have a new supporter. This is insane.

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew, I went back and read that you’re not waiting until marriage but just waiting until you find the right one for an LTR. That means that you’ll have a wider range of women to choose from.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying from a personal and philosophical standpoint.

    My main objection was to the idea that following through would make him some kind of predator or creep.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?”

    Isn’t it obvious? Because many of them don’t have fathers that give a shit about them, and as a man I cannot have these “talks” with any young girls without risking accusations of improper behavior. Plus, I have two boys as well, and I’d prefer they have a large group of well adjusted young women to choose from.

    That being said, my primary concern will always be my children.

    • @Ted D

      As a man I cannot have these “talks” with any young girls without risking accusations of improper behavior.

      And yet you support a man your age having sex with them without considering it improper behavior.

      Plus, I have two boys as well, and I’d prefer they have a large group of well adjusted young women to choose from.

      In that case, you should harshly judge a society that has nothing to say about teenagers having sex with middle aged men.

  • Jackie

    @Herb
    “I have come to have one answer to people who use my values to demand I defend them from the consequences of their choices while they spit upon me:

    “ Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    I will not be torn to pieces for the benefit of people who rejected me and what I hold dear. I will stand apart, as they required, and leave them in peace.”
    ======
    Herb, you have been really, really hurt by a variety of forces. I am truly sorry for the pain you have experienced and what you have suffered.

    That plus, your language and imagery is so violent (“torn to pieces” “spit upon me”) and directed so broadly at groups of feminists and “feral children” that I think we are doing more harm than good in exchanging viewpoints. It’s not worth it– life is short.

    Peace, Herb–

  • Andrew

    @Just a thought
    Yes. Never drank, never smoked, and never did drugs. xTrueTilDeathx.

    Technically Straight Edge does extend to sex. I just wasn’t sure if you were aware of that.

    I appreciate the advice. I’ll give it some thought. I must say the second conversation sounds bold.

    @Sai
    Yes, there is a straight edge movement which started in the late 70s and early 80s and was and still is associated with hardcore punk music.

    @Susan Walsh
    You’re right and I’ve always known that I needed to find the right girl. Like I said before to someone else earlier in the thread is that I have my work cut out and I’ve always known that it’s going to be tough.

    @HanSolo
    I’m not a Tebow hater, but I kind of disagree a little bit with what you said. Yes I’m not waiting until marriage. I use to think that when I was a Christian, but my views have obviously changed. However, I’m not in any rush to give it up anytime soon. I still feel skeptical about the range of choices of women though. Ideally, yes I do want to be with a virgin, but I already acknowledge the reality of how people approach sex and relationships in this day and age. So I’ve opened myself up to the possibility of dating a non-virgin. It just depends if she is the right one for me whether she’s a virgin or not.

    “So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.”

    I’ve already stated something to that effect on a couple of posts, so that’s not even an issue with me at all. I just wanted to get some perspective on why and how there’s such a strong, negative connotation attached to virgins among other things and better understand myself even more. That’s why I kept asking questions and wanted to know. I’ve gotten answers especially from here, but I guess that just makes me naïve.

    “even if his passing skills are suspect”
    Ha! He’ll be alright. I’m interested to see how it plays out with Sanchez this coming season.

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “I do find it surprising that an aggressively Christian commenter is the subject of this debate, but I’ll leave this to the philosophers. It creeps me out, that’s the bottom line, but I’m only speaking for myself.”
    ==========
    Yeah, I found interesting, too! As I mentioned: scripturally, doctrinally, culturally and avatar-ily, there is NO supportable evidence for his position and almost unlimited evidence against it. This is a hamster running at the speed of light!

    Typically, a church elder (or pastor/priest) is supposed to step in and say why the rules are there. But I guess not too many professional theologians hanging out on the thread today! 😉

    Second thought: He actually would be able to find “kindred spirits,” especially among FLDS (polygamous fundamentalist Mormons) and groups like YFZ (Yearning For Zion), and people like Warren Jeffs and Tom Green.

    And these men would be OK with *multiple* teenage/middle-age man pairings, as long as Des would make her one of his wives.

    Obviously, the people who would support this kind of thing are very fringe. And for a good reason. (Jon Krakauer’s _Under the Banner of Heaven_ is a pretty fascinating book about this, BTW.)

  • Herb

    @Jackie

    It is interesting the “tear you to pieces” disturbs you. After all it is from the Sermon on the Mount.

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew

    It will be interesting to see how Sanchez does. He seems like he can be rattled and then that affects his game a lot. Tebow is a good athlete but really doesn’t have great QB passing skills. We’ll see. I think both were drafted higher than they should have been but F-ing up the draft is what keeps a lot of teams down. But, you do have to hand it to Tebow with Denver, he found a way to win and get them to the playoffs.

    I’m not a Tebow hater, but I kind of disagree a little bit with what you said.

    I wasn’t clear on what you disagreed about.

    “So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.”

    I’ve already stated something to that effect on a couple of posts, so that’s not even an issue with me at all. I just wanted to get some perspective on why and how there’s such a strong, negative connotation attached to virgins….

    That’s cool that you’re really solid in your decision and at peace about it. What are your thoughts on what to do going forward? I think that since you are internally solid and are only waiting to find the right one for sex that you shouldn’t have too much problem with other virgins and looking-for-true-love type of girls.

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew

    I meant to say that you are waiting to find the right one for an LTR before having sex and not until marriage.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “aggressively Christian commenter”

    Whatever.

    Your consistent, and, yes, aggressive misreading of my comments has again exhausted my patience. BTW, she’s not with hipster drummers, she’s with dipshit fratboy types, and if they’re not using each other with no emotional connection on a regular basis, they’d be the rare exception.

    Good luck with the blog.

    And Jackie, you’re the best. Thanks for the moral support – I was needing it.

    • @Desiderius

      You painted yourself into a corner on that one. I don’t really believe you ever expected that lifeguard to be a sexual conquest, but you wanted to play bad boy on the internet.

      Please point out any misreading on my part. I did nothing more than reprint the convo and evaluate it at face value.

      BTW, she’s not with hipster drummers, she’s with dipshit fratboy types, and if they’re not using each other with no emotional connection on a regular basis, they’d be the rare exception.

      You can’t know that unless you’ve taken an inappropriate interest in the personal life of this lifeguard.

      And Jackie, you’re the best. Thanks for the moral support — I was needing it.

      Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!

  • Mike C

    Also, I’m backing off the hookup route. I still go out, get numbers if I feel so inclined (only if I intend to set something up) and have a good time, but I’m calming down because I think it’ll be better for a number of reasons. The situation I described is actually the third time in the past 3 months where I’ve turned down a presumed ONS, and I’m completely fine with that.

    Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.

    Jason,

    Just curious, do you think it helps that you sort of “got it out of your system” so to speak in order to be able to be at this point. In other words, do you think you would have been able to pass up the 3 ONS as easily without your past “hookups and douchebaggery”.

  • Rice n Beans

    “Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.”

    Reformed slut? What a catch!

  • Rice n Beans

    “I had no idea there was a “straight edge” movement. ”

    There’s not. It came and went in the late 80s-early 90s when half of them joined some religious cult, I think it was the Hare Krishnas IIRC.

  • Just a thought

    I will point out one thing.
    Desiderius did not try to escalate or pursue this woman. He simply made a sexual comment to a girl. If I was penalized for every sexual comment I made to a guy, I’m sure I would be found wanting too.
    After all, I object to 50 shades of gray, not because it’s porn, but because it’s pretty bad porn. I mean seriously what kind of erotica forces you to wait like 50-100 pages before the sex? And what kind of Erotica has a name like 50 shades of gray? Why is there a picture of a tie on the cover? Where’s the naked man?
    Desiderius didn’t do anything. He thought about it. Let’s not police thought crimes here.
    That said, I disagree with the core philosophy among PUA gamers that all the SMP issues are “someone else’s problem”
    1. Alphas create more feminists. Alphas who pump and dump girls just convince some women that all men are evil, they become left-wing feminists and convince more women to hate men. Alphas will eventually inherit a world where no woman trusts any men and all girls have children out of wedlock. This society will have higher male crime and be incredibly dangerous for young men.
    2. Every alpha created is a new feminazi born.
    3. We as a culture do not exist in a vacuum, consequences for our actions exist.

    Andrew,
    I hope you find the girl you are looking for and I hope she loves you as much as you love her.

    Jackie, reading your story just made me want to hug you. I don’t know how you came back from that. Personally, I would bitterly hate all men if I had the experience you described to me. I am wishing you well.

    • @Just a thought

      Desiderius did not try to escalate or pursue this woman. He simply made a sexual comment to a girl.

      We can debate the appropriateness of that, but I stated the same thing earlier in the thread. He didn’t take action. I really don’t believe he intended to. Here are Desi’s remarks on the matter.

      It’s been my general practice not to pursue this kind of thing, but I’m not so sure any more that that is right.

      …I’m considering pursuing it because my lack of interest in casual sex (and consequent lack of understanding re: how to play the game to get there) has left me at a disadvantage with women I would be interested in pursuing relationships with.

      Women get very worried by an attractive man who’s game isn’t tight. The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?

      Not a rhetorical question.

      Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?

      I’ve always assumed it is, but I’m having doubts.

      Jackie: “WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?

      This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.

      I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”

      I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.

      I haven’t been entirely serious on this thread (certainly not nearing perfection), but I never made that claim, seriously or otherwise. I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime — my endurance is wearing thin.

      My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.

      That’s the record, and it can speak for itself. I don’t like debating this one bit, and only address it because I am responsible for the content on this blog. I’ll drop it here.

    • @Just a thought

      Desiderius did not try to escalate or pursue this woman. He simply made a sexual comment to a girl.

      We can debate the appropriateness of that, but I stated the same thing earlier in the thread. He didn’t take action. I really don’t believe he intended to. Here are Desi’s remarks on the matter.

      It’s been my general practice not to pursue this kind of thing, but I’m not so sure any more that that is right.

      …I’m considering pursuing it because my lack of interest in casual sex (and consequent lack of understanding re: how to play the game to get there) has left me at a disadvantage with women I would be interested in pursuing relationships with.

      Women get very worried by an attractive man who’s game isn’t tight. The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?

      Not a rhetorical question.

      Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?

      I’ve always assumed it is, but I’m having doubts.

      Jackie: “WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?

      This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.

      I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”

      I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.

      I haven’t been entirely serious on this thread (certainly not nearing perfection), but I never made that claim, seriously or otherwise. I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime — my endurance is wearing thin.

      My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.

      That’s the record, and it can speak for itself. I don’t like debating this one bit, and only address it because I am responsible for the content on this blog. I’ll drop it here.

  • Rice n Beans

    “Follow Ians advice and limit masturbation, A LOT. It is common finding among a subgroup of PUAs that have experimented with this that it does help a lot and my own experience confirms this. Limiting it builds up some sort of hormonal charge that gives you more energy and vitality, paradoxically gives you a more sexual vibe, makes you a lot less needy, more confident, more relaxed++”

    Sounds like some sort of ancient teaching.

  • J

    The week before our original wedding day, I got a 2am phonecall. I had left a message (not a text) that said, I love you. The girl he was having sex with intercepted it in the middle of the night, to tell me she was with him and wearing his shirt.

    Yikes, that’s horrible, Jackie. What a story! OTOH, as heartbreaking as it was, you’ve down a really good job of putting things back together and will, I have no doubt, find a much better man.

    I was crushed when I broke up with my N and felt pretty sure that I’d never marry, but believe me I’m thrilled now that I dodged that bullet.

  • J

    I’m not saying all 40+ year old guys need to go after 18 year old girls… but I’m saying they shouldn’t feel the least bit ashamed for being attracted to them,

    Agreed. It’s natural to feel attracted to the young and pretty.

    and shouldn’t be the least bit ashamed for taking action if the option is presented by another consenting adult.

    It may well be legal, but the vast difference in life experience leaves a lot of room for predation, IMO

  • Abbot

    “Reformed slut? What a catch!”

    If women truly want the “double standard” to go away they need to stop knowingly and happily [to the point of pride] committing to such sluts

  • Jason773

    If women truly want the “double standard” to go away they need to stop knowingly and happily [to the point of pride] committing to such sluts

    Not going to happen in my generation or even the next. Maybe two generations from now a change could take place, but the movement would have to gain traction very soon.

  • Jason773

    Mike C,

    Just curious, do you think it helps that you sort of “got it out of your system” so to speak in order to be able to be at this point. In other words, do you think you would have been able to pass up the 3 ONS as easily without your past “hookups and douchebaggery”.

    Yes and no. Very early on, when I was more idealistic, I would have been able to pass up on these opportunities, with the catch being that I was much less likely to have them presented to me. During later phases, no way I was passing up on these, because the girls were attractive and I felt I needed to gain this experience.

    Now, I’m fine with it, because my value is high, is getting even higher, and I have internalized the skills needed to get these opportunities. Simply ‘knowing’ it was there for the taking is good enough for me right now. One caveat is that these girls, while all being objectively 7+, were not my type where I’d run head first into a wall just to stop thinking about them naked (I love dark hair like Italian or Asian, and either fit or petite. I’m dirty blonde/blue and have very limited attraction to girls with similar traits, for whatever reason). If that situation were to come up it would be difficult for me not to go through with it, as I understand that an initial hookup makes a connection infinitely more possible, assuming other areas match up.

  • Abbot

    “Not going to happen in my generation or even the next. Maybe two generations from now a change could take place, but the movement would have to gain traction very soon.”

    Well then, they only have themselves to blame for the the creation and maintenance of this so-called “double standard.” Yet, ironically, it is solely women who complain about it.

  • Jason773

    To add on to the 18yo discussion, while it is not legally wrong, I think it is in a moral grey area as an 18yo in this situation most likely has serious emotional issues. I’m not too far removed from college and 18yos, and in my time I can think of maybe one girl who I would consider mature enough to relate to a much older man beyond a physical level.

    I know if I ever met a girl a bit younger than me and she told me about dating much older men, it would raise a huge red flag and I’d probably run for the hills.

  • Abbot

    “mature enough to relate to a much older man beyond a physical level.”

    and that is typically the limit of the relationship. If nothing long term is contemplated – young dick, older dick…how is it relevant?

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    @Andrew Tim Tebow is one of the most desired athletes and is a virgin. Why is he desired? Because he’s a take-charge, sexy, virtuous star athlete (even if his passing skills are suspect). He’s a classic example of the “virtuous alpha.” He doesn’t apologize for being a virgin and has a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. This attitude is what should be emulated, IMO.

    As others have said many women assume that nearly ALL men want to get laid whenever they can and so they’re interpreting the voluntary virgin as if he were an involuntary virgin. Since this is the assumed point of view you will have to internally be completely mentally strong about your beliefs and choices so that when the moment comes you’re frame of mind is strong enough to make her realize that you’re a virgin because of strength, not because of weakness. You need to really believe and know that you’re sexy and will please your future woman when the time comes but that you are waiting to find the right girl who is lucky enough to have you. Any kind of “wimpy” wondering whether the girl will accept you or find you sexy or want to be with you (and especially transmitting that through body language or speech) will make it more likely for her to put you back in the assumed “guy who can’t get laid because he’s not attractive enough” category. Once again, Tim Tebow is certai
    nly not in this category.

    Are you looking for a fellow virgin? If so, then things are probably easier. If not, then I would wait for the right moment to reveal that you’re a virgin. Are you set on waiting til marriage or only until you find the right one and are in a committed relationship? I can see that some women who would not want to be in an LTR w/o sex but there are many who would if they’re attracted to you strongly enough.

    So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.

    Somewhat related, I don’t drink but I have gone out with or dated lots of women who drink. There were a couple gf’s that wanted to get me to drink, not in a bastardly way, but more out of a thinking it would make me enjoy life more. I never gave in and just teased them that they were trying to get me drunk so they could take advantage of me. Overall, I think the man’s frame of mind and overall attractiveness can overcome some of these other issues. Of course, there are some women for whom a non-drinker or a no-sex-until-marriage man would be a no go no matter how attractive he is. If you are more of the type that is simply waiting to be in an LTR before sex then the no sex thing in the relationship before marriage is moot and many women will be glad you’re not a manwhore, as long as you’re sufficiently attractive and confident to make her fall in love with you.

    Good luck and feel free to ask or clarify anything.

    Excellent post!

  • Heaven help me, I’m quoting Abbott

    “mature enough to relate to a much older man beyond a physical level.”

    and that is typically the limit of the relationship. If nothing long term is contemplated – young dick, older dick…how is it relevant?

    I wonder how often sex has been more than that historically. I’m convinced 99% of it in the modern world is nothing more than bumping uglies. That was the whole point of the sexual revolution: “sex is fun, everyone should have fun sex, and if you aren’t down for just fun sex you’re a prude at best and oppressive at worst.”

    In that environment, how does the inability to go beyond the physical matter. Unless, of course, you’re a prude who think people put more emphasis on emotional dimensions of sex than they admit, especially women.

    Saying women use sex to bond may be accurate, but it is also socially frowned upon. Man is a social animal so don’t expect that to be effective. Especially on men who are called in the double bind of wrong if they respect women and wrong if they don’t. If they’re “wrong” both ways expect more and more to be “wrong” in the way most enjoyable to them.

    How listening to the typical 18 year old talk is enjoyable is beyond me but, as I’m so often reminded, I’m not supposed to judge.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy
    Thanks. Here’s a little Tebow eye candy for you Sassy, running in the rain! lol 😉

    http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2012/07/tim_tebow_laughs_off_attention.html

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    Haha! Thanks for the link.

    I’m not really attracted to Tim Tebow, but I can’t deny the appeal he has to other women. My sister is absolutely gaga over him, and I’ve heard plenty of other women speaking favorably about him. He’s not really my cup of tea though.

    I’ll share that link with my sister though. She’ll appreciate it for sure.

  • HanSolo

    Holy shit Sassy! Not even Tim Tebow is good enough? 😉 Just messin’ with ya! LOL

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hansolo

    It’s cool.

    I’m like a man in the sense that I place a good deal of importance on the physical appearance of my partner. Tim Tebow has an okay body (I’m not really a fan of men with a lot of muscles), but I’m not attracted to his face.

    My sister thinks he is the cat’s meow though.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    No problem with you not being attracted. I was just teasing. lol

  • @SW

    I think you can pull off being a virgin with the right girl.

    Isn’t a guy’s N being low (or zero) being “bad” mostly an exaggerated stereotype? I mean, just looking at the raw data, assuming he and the girl are on Team R, and there’s some initial attraction…

    • @Megaman

      Isn’t a guy’s N being low (or zero) being “bad” mostly an exaggerated stereotype? I mean, just looking at the raw data, assuming he and the girl are on Team R, and there’s some initial attraction…

      Clearly. 40% of college students are virgins and 25% of seniors are, and those numbers are true for both sexes. Surely a virgin of one sex wouldn’t likely reject a virgin of the other, and might be expected to value that.

      It shouldn’t be hard for Andrew to find a woman who qualifies, assuming he is swimming in the right pond. A virgin guy is not likely to cut a swath through the Tri Delt house, but I’m assuming few want that anyway, or are realistic about their odds of getting it.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “How is not having sex with a teenager taking one for the team? When Desi said this I thought he was referring to the “team” of Christian men.”

    No, it’s the team of which we’re both a part. I had a great relationship with a very mature 18-yr-old high school grad when I was 25 – we met via starring together in a community theater production of R&H’s Cinderella. Made sure to keep it in my pants the whole time, but we were pretty crazy about each other. She had big college plans so I told her to forget about me and chase her dreams.

    That kind of taking one for the team. Two things about this situation threw me – that it reminded me of that relationship was one of them.

    I will be leaving for awhile as I won’t have easy internet access due to the move, but my propensity to storm off in a huff is getting more and more embarrassing. Cortisol spike?

    • @Desi

      I will be leaving for awhile as I won’t have easy internet access due to the move, but my propensity to storm off in a huff is getting more and more embarrassing. Cortisol spike?

      Ha, at least you can go away for a while! I embarrass myself regularly and I still have to show up.

      As I said, I think you got caught in an online firestorm here – I truly have little doubt of your moral character. If I insinuated something that wasn’t accurate, I apologize. There was some armchair psychology there, for sure.

      I certainly believe it’s natural for us to feel flattered when we receive attention. Nothing wrong with that. I also don’t believe in policing anyone’s thoughts. People are entitled to their sexual fantasies and it’s their private business. I wanted to make clear that I did not judge you for anything you did.

  • Desiderius

    “My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.”

    Can’t say that any of that is entirely false. I was closer to action than I should have been or you imagine, but the mention of Col. Brandon put the quick kibosh on that. The biggest thing that threw me off was that here was an attractive female who actually TOOK SOME INITIATIVE.

    That was what was so rare about this case and made such an impression.

    As for Devil’s Advocacy – absolutely guilty. Neither your moral system nor Jackie’s are particularly robust in answering the questions raised by this situation. Appeals to very shaky authority (Jackie) and ad hominem insinuations and misreading (you) are unlikely to make them more so, even if some of the insinuations do hit uncomfortably close to the mark.

    Ironic that you imply that this sort of thing is rare in the same week you link to Roissy. On reflection, this girl is solidly MMC (as have been the many other examples of girl’s gone bizarre behavior I’ve been seeing) and Roissy’s tone has been changing, so maybe UMC young female behavior has actually changed.

    If that’s the case, I’d better back way off that subject. Bad for business.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!”

    I’ve haven’t often shown the capacity to take encouragement in stride rather than as a license to flood your blog with wild speculation, so you tend to shy away from that. What’s left then seems unduly contentious.

    I’ll see what I can do about that.

  • Andrew

    @HanSolo
    I knew what you meant. I was impressed that he got them to the playoffs. I find it hilarious how unhappy all the Tebow haters were at his accomplishment during the playoffs, especially for a man of his character. He just needs time to grow as a player in the NFL. If he wasn’t a virgin and a devout Christian, I think Tim Tebow would still be that desired guy for women. I think those two factors sets him apart from a guy like Tom Brady and generates more positive interest. I agree with the person here that said about generating positive interest from women, if a guy is attractive enough and still a virgin. I think that same logic can be applied to women, especially if she’s really attractive.

    “you shouldn’t have too much problem with other virgins and looking-for-true-love type of girls”
    I’m not so sure about that. To me, it seems like there’s a low percentage of that. Even if I found someone who is a virgin and/or is looking for true love, I also consider women’s personal taste like race, religion, personality, lifestyle, etc. As far as going forward, I’m not sure. I probably need to think about it more. I’ll probably take most people’s advice here and keep my virginity to myself. I can feel the negative vibe against virginity by most. I feel like an idiot now for putting myself out here. I guess I made a big mistake of mentioning my virginity.

    @Just a Thought
    Thanks. We’ll see.

  • Rice n Beans

    “I don’t think that a man needs to have sexual experience to be successful with women. It may help to foster attraction in your run-of-the-mill type of woman, but I highly doubt that it’s the type of woman you want to end up with in the long run.”

    If by run of the mill you mean average, well most of us are average people.

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew

    I’m neither a Tebow hater nor lover but it was fascinating to see all the comebacks and making the playoffs. There’s no denying that he has a ton of heart and grit and is a good athlete and leader. I think with time he may be able to improve his throwing. Just read an article by Jaws about how his throwing when just throwing has improved but reverts back to worse technique in more gamelike practice settings. Anyway, we’ll see what happens in a month or so and it will be interesting.

    I agree with your statement that “if he wasn’t a virgin and a devout Christian, I think Tim Tebow would still be that desired guy for women” because he has the underlying attributes that make him attractive to women.

    “you shouldn’t have too much problem with other virgins and looking-for-true-love type of girls”
    I’m not so sure about that. To me, it seems like there’s a low percentage of that. Even if I found someone who is a virgin and/or is looking for true love, I also consider women’s personal taste like race, religion, personality, lifestyle, etc.

    Okay, I see your point, wondering how many women there are out there really looking for true love. I have to agree with that largely since it seems like many women today (not all, maybe not most but certainly enough to have a huge effect on the market) have a much more “masculine” attitude and think romantic behaviour is wimpy. They have taken on the attitudes that they claim exist in men (but really only in the player types who grab their attention–apex fallacy). As we saw in comparing the men’s and women’s surveys here, the women surveyed are less interested in LTR’s (although I do think the sample of women was highly skewed to more pro-feminist and liberal sample than you would see across the whole country–notice the overwhelming approval of Obama and antipathy to Romney in some of the politically-oriented questions; but I think the attitude shown here are representative of a lot of the women in more liberal areas).

    As someone who at heart really wants a deep and romantic relationship I have learned that I have to really hold that back until I see the women showing more interest. I think that part of this is just damn good advice, even if most of the women out there were more romantic, since you (generic you, not you, Andrew) need time to really get to know their character before they are worthy of such deep feelings and before you can legitimately say that you love them and aren’t just infatuated. But on the other hand a good percentage of women in their 20’s and even early 30’s just aren’t romantic–it’s like feminism, entitlement and the heartbreak of getting pumped and dumped by players and/or out-of-their-league men has beaten it out of them–and they’ve adopted the hardened attitudes of them men they both want and despise. Interestingly enough, I have done online dating here and in Brazil, when I lived there for 6 months and the difference in what the girls write in their profiles and what they’re looking for is amazing. The American girls from 20-30 go on about how they’re sarcastic, ball-busting and if you can’t take it then get out of the kitchen, and that they’re just looking for someone they can do stuff with (no problem there). Many ask where all the real men are. Very little, but sometimes some, “feminine” content in their profiles. After 30 they start to say stuff about how they’re looking for someone serious. Meanwhile, in the Brazilian profiles it was very much so looking for a serious relationship, for love, etc. And, parenthetically, a significantly higher percentage of the Brazilian men are players (and damn, many of them are smooth and charming) and so there’s a combination of the players being rewarded by women saying they want LTR’s but also there is a big female market of unmet romantic LTR’s.

    Now, having said that, there still are good and/or romantic women in the US but we have to be much more careful about how we go about finding them and interacting with them so that we can elicit out the sweet, feminine, perhaps truer side of them that’s hiding behind the bitch-shield that is often put up. Too much of a bitch-shield though and it’s not worth it and you have to wonder whether it’s a shield or the core of their being. I think bitchiness is on a spectrum–maybe 20% are really sweet, nice with no bitch shield at all, then 20% (10%?) are bitches at heart and the other 60% are for the most part good women but with increasing amounts of bitchiness/bitch-shieldiness as you move from the sweet side of the spectrum to the other end and that increasingly makes them women we should avoid. (These numbers are just very rough approximations) Same is true of guys on the asshole/jerk spectrum. Some % (10-20%?) of men are the assholes that women (rightfully) bemoan, 20% are admirable and ~60% are probably relatively decent at heart but gradually realizing that they’re getting shafted and start putting up the asshole/jerk/angry shield in varying degrees. (Are men putting up more of an asshole-shield in a belated reaction to the failed arms-reduction talks? Probably. “If you’re not going to dismantle your nuclear bitch/only-responding-to-player ICBMs then we’re going to deploy our own arsenal of nuclear asshole/jerk/player ICBMs”)

    I’ll probably take most people’s advice here and keep my virginity to myself. I can feel the negative vibe against virginity by most. I feel like an idiot now for putting myself out here. I guess I made a big mistake of mentioning my virginity.

    FWIW I often feel like an idiot after I put myself out in certain situations. You are the only one who knows how you feel and it can certainly feel a bit awkward or disheartening to really open up but I hope that you don’t feel like an idiot. I think that the responses here have been a mix of outright sympathy, practical advice and tough love. I don’t think you made a big mistake about mentioning your virginity and it brought out some interesting discussion.

    I was a voluntary religious virgin for a long time and when I left the church and started dating outside of my former religion I remember how I didn’t want to tell anyone that I was. I had a lot of hang-ups and doubts about sex–not that sex was dirty but more if I could perform under pressure and if I was big enough–lol–and such. I dated a girl and was actually extremely open with her about everything–all my fears and doubts, yeah maybe it was revealing too much to her in hindsight but she actually didn’t think less of me because she really liked me for me and wasn’t an idiot and realized where I was coming from. I’ll be forever grateful to her because of her accepting and compassionate nature I overcame 99% of my doubts and hang-ups about my sexual ability. Relating this to the bitch shield she did have one (and for some good reasons IMO) but for whatever reasons I was able to disarm the BS and deal with her more inner self.

    Anyway, I’ve rambled on a lot but I hope you don’t feel like an idiot and that you keep commenting as you have thoughts, insights or questions. I think you’ll get useful responses for the most part and also contribute useful things to the other readers, most of whom are lurkers.

  • HanSolo

    @Desiderius

    Your experience made me remember something somewhat similar that happened to me. This was back in my religious days when I was still a virgin. I helped out with this family joining our church and one of the girls (18 y/o and 10 years younger than me) was really hot (usually a 9 but could get up to a 9.5 when she slimmed down and down to an 8 when she chubbed up a bit). I rarely get attention from hot women but she really liked me. I kept in touch with them from time to time to see how they were doing in life and with the church.

    Well, one time she asked me if I wanted to play tennis and the whole tense-stomach, OMG, shallow breathing, can’t-believe-a-really-hot-girl is wanting to do something with me reaction kicked in and the angelic and diabolic Fred Flinstones appeared on my shoulders and started to persuade. Diabolic: she’s hot, you’ll never get another woman this hot, go out with her you idiot! lol Angelic: she’s too young and think of what people at church would think if they found out. My hamster got into the negotiations and found an adequate compromise and so I told her: bring your older sister and all 3 of us can play tennis. She readily agreed. My conscious was relieved, my libido didn’t feel castrated and my hamster told me I was just hanging out with the 2 girls to help them in their spiritual lives.

    So, tennis time comes and we meet up but there’s no sister to be seen. “Oh, she couldn’t make it.” Sly girl! lol I was like, “Oh well, we can play, I guess.” I was both feeling excited and guilty and hoping that we didn’t come across any fellow congregation members that would hand me over to the creeper inquisition! We played without incident or discovery.

    Fast forward to another moment and she was going away for quite a while. Up to this point it had been a platonic friendship, at least in actions if not in certain conscious or subconscious intentions. We met at a church activity and talked for a bit. We went for a walk and sat down in a park by the river. She looked at me with the most obvious body language I have ever seen that screamed the words into my mind, “well, are you going to fucking kiss me or what?” (And I did feel guilty for think the word ‘fuck’ and quickly prayed for forgiveness.)

    The Fred Flinstone angels and devils were fighting furiously and I was nervous as hell, torn between lust and propriety. I meekly surrendered to her devouring demands and was shocked as she completely stuck her tongue into my mouth and “ravished” me. I thought, “holy shit, she’s way more experienced than I am.” This time though I didn’t think to feel guilty about thinking the word ‘shit’. I may have been 10 years older but in terms of experience she was the expert and I was the novice.

    Moving forward, she was gone for a several months and then came back. During her absence I was deathly afraid that she would blab and that I would be labelled a pervert. When she came back we went out a couple of times. She told me I was such a nerd. I took it as a mild insult but she insisted that that was why she really liked me. She told me she wanted to be with me forever. For my birthday she took me out to dinner (and paid–lol) and gave me a nice tie and a polo dress shirt.

    She was a bit rebellious relative to the strict church norms and in spite of my carnal fall into kissing her (but nothing beyond that) was quite the straight arrow. Between my reservations about her youth and her rebelliousness I couldn’t allow my heart to really fall for her or date her seriously.

    Time went on, she married someone else about my same age and eventually I ended up leaving the church (a-whole-nother story). Ironic and a bit sad to me that I held her slight rebelliousness and her age against her and then several years later outright left the church while she settled down into a stable marriage.

    I look back and really regret not dating her more and giving her a serious chance. On days when I feel alone I sometimes think back to what could have been and that the baby she had could have been mine. Life went on and I dated other girls after and will in the future–someday, I’ll find the right one and not be so picky in some ways so as to exclude good or even awesome girls–but that experience has really stuck in my mind.

    Anyway, Desiderius, just sending a bit of cyber-empathy your way. Cheers.

    And no, I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t go date that girl. Just sharing a slightly related experience that his made me think of.

    • @Han Solo

      The story you shared was an eye opener for me. I don’t really know anything about religious communities, but I found it painful to read about the angel and devil on your shoulder. I think it’s terrible that you felt guilty for French kissing! It sounds like evangelical Christians have an SMP all their own, and it is wacked.

  • Rice n Beans

    589 HanSolo August 2, 2012 at 10:23 pm is a perfect example of how religion can mess up the human mind.

  • Jackie

    @Des (555)

    Hey Des,

    You are most welcome! :mrgreen: Susan is right– I *was* much harder on you than she. So I appreciate your goodwill in accepting my feedback!

    (FYI: It’s because, like Susan is harder on the younger women, I am harder on fellow religious people. There is some Presby woman out there in her 20s or 30s who is going to want to see you as this dashing figure she can truly feel justified in devoting herself to. Don’t let her down by, Des!)

    I actually was thinking about your situation today: Have you considered asking any of your friends’ wives to set you up with someone great?

    I ask because, if the love of _Emma_ and “Clueless” is not enough of a clue, women REALLY like matchmaking. My own parents met on a blind date that was set up by their friends in church. The rest was history! 😉

    Seriously, think about it, Des.
    =========
    My other thought was this:

    Haley’s Halo is a blog that mentions how the Christian single population is really under-valued and under-ministered to. Basically, if you haven’t met someone in college, you’re really on your own. (In my experience.) And after telling you DON’T DON’T DON’T for so many years, there is no way for them to acknowledge how to get to DO.

    Do they think we just “don’t count” after a certain point? Not sure. All I know if that there needs to be far more moral support for us singles. We are wandering in the desert, without a Moses to lead us and not even a little bit of manna from heaven. 🙁

  • SW

    Surely a virgin of one sex wouldn’t likely reject a virgin of the other, and might be expected to value that.

    The difficulty for Mr. Andrew will be in finding an all-around *compatible* female, which isn’t totally dependent upon her N. But the numbers are definitely in his favor. Young women (age 20-29) who report 0-3 partners is significant, somewhere around 50%. I don’t see them automatically disqualifying him, either. Not to beat a dead horse, but that stat alone gets to the heart of your recent debate over the prevalence of “slutty” behavior.

  • HanSolo

    @Rice n Beans

    In my case it kept me protected from a lot of dangers but it also kept me too suppressed. I’m still spiritual but for me there was too much of an underlying tribal nature at church and the teachings that I tried to strictly follow were too strict. Ironically, I think if I had been less committed to the church and following everything that I would have been able to deal with just setting aside the stuff that didn’t uplift me and follow what did.

    Any kind of excessively dogmatic thought, whether religious or secular, is damaging and reveals human natures underlying tendency to band into tribes with prescribed thoughts and behaviours, violation of which risks banishment. Ironically, devout religious people in the western world are often the ones who are banished from the tribe of PC progressives.

  • Jackie

    @Just A Thought

    Hi JaT,

    Thanks for the well-wishes, I can always use hugs! 😀

    “Personally, I would bitterly hate all men if I had the experience you described to me”

    Just a Thought, let me tell you something: He doesn’t get that kind of power over me.
    *I* control the frame.
    *I* decide the narrative.
    *I* own the story!

    NOT HIM.

    I am the author of my experience. And I choose “champion” not “chumpette.” Because if people think I am going to get all Havisham-ed up in their grill, they have another thing coming!

    Definitely I am more judicious and prudent, but you know what? I know my true worth, under pressure I can be like a diamond. Unbreakable. In the face of crisis, you see someone’s character. In some ways, it is very reassuring; I know that in crisis I can be Gibraltar.

    Anyway, thanks again for the kind words. I really believe that my story will have a happy ending. 😎

    • Just a Thought, let me tell you something: He doesn’t get that kind of power over me.
      *I* control the frame.
      *I* decide the narrative.
      *I* own the story!

      NOT HIM.

      I am the author of my experience. And I choose “champion” not “chumpette.” Because if people think I am going to get all Havisham-ed up in their grill, they have another thing coming!

      Jackie, you would make an awesome life coach. This is such a great example of strength and positivity. And the Havisham reference is priceless. 🙂

  • Jackie

    @J
    “Yikes, that’s horrible, Jackie. What a story! OTOH, as heartbreaking as it was, you’ve down a really good job of putting things back together and will, I have no doubt, find a much better man.”
    ======
    Thanks, J– you’re cool! I appreciate the good wishes! 😀

    PS: I am a weirdo who uses stuff like that to *drive* me. WHen I found myself getting angry, I put in awesome mileage on my running.
    #TeamLemonsIntoLemonade 😎

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!”
    ======
    Hahaha!

    Like I said earlier, you are tougher on the young women; I am tougher on the religious people. Policing our own, so to speak. 😉

    BTW, this is *mild* compared to the “modesty lectures” that are given to MANY (all?) young women in religion class. We are told not to have a hemline too high or a neckline too low (two fingers’ width below the collarbone was the max). Lest we lead men into temptation and SIN!

    (I should say, I was busted so many times for this. Bah! I remember one of ladies who was busting my chops [or rather, hemline!] said, I had a student like you once. I asked her, Why do you dress the way you do? The student answered, Because I think the body is a beautiful thing.

    Personally, I’d like to think that God would be agreeing with that! I don’t know why a bunch of old crows would want to swaddle us in sacklike garb.)

    (#IAmSorry
    #PenanceToMyModestyTeachers
    #ItsHardToBeGood)

    • a neckline too low (two fingers’ width below the collarbone was the max).

      I just measured this and it’s a full four inches above cleavage! Even the Victorians appreciated decolletage!

  • Jackie

    @Des
    ” I was closer to action than I should have been or you imagine, but the mention of Col. Brandon put the quick kibosh on that.”
    =========
    Jane Austen saves the day! Is there *anything* those books can’t do?!

    #TeamAusten4Lyfe
    #AintNoPartyLikeAnAustenParty

    Neither your moral system nor Jackie’s are particularly robust in answering the questions raised by this situation. Appeals to very shaky authority (Jackie)
    ==============
    Aw, Des! C’mon– my scripture knowledge was LEGIT!

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    We are told not to have a hemline too high or a neckline too low (two fingers’ width below the collarbone was the max). Lest we lead men into temptation and SIN!

    I should say, I was BUSTED so many times for this. (emphasis added)

    Pun intended? LMAO

    You used the word ‘bust’ twice! 😉 lol

    The young women at our church were told to dress modestly lest they become pornography for the young men.

  • Jackie

    @HanSolo

    Ooops!
    :blush:

    By the way, Han, I was reading your story above– I think you are *awesome*! I’m so sorry your church was so constricting to you. I think people who are conscientious sometimes suffer more, since religions/churches come down SO hard on certain things.

    Earlier, Ted D and I were talking– he said he wanted to scare women into being good. It reminded me of when my religion teachers wanted to scare me into being good. All it did was paralyze me to the point of inaction– I didn’t want God to zap me with a lightning bolt from the sky! 😉

    So hearing your viewpoint really helps me understand some of the Christian men I’ve dated. (Like they are going to be scorched if they touch me, think they are unattracted to me, since the escalation is about the speed of molasses.)

    Here is hoping that Master Yoda or Chewie can help you find the Princess Leia. And that we will dance with the Ewoks at your wedding in the forest some day!

    🙂

  • HanSolo

    Oh, and that reminds me of Bust Must in Napoleon Dynamite!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASGt9BIj_Xo

    Love that movie. Kip and La Fawnduh! Uncle Rico. Awesome scene at the end when Napoleon and Deborah implicitly finally get together and play tetherball to the great song, The Promise.

  • Jackie

    @Han
    Shoot! That first emoticon is
    😳

    Darn it!
    🙄

  • Jackie

    Am I the only one who wishes there could be a story or a movie about HUS? Like where some Fairy Blogmother is reading all the stories here and helping people meet each other and fall in love?

    Because I think that would be a really great movie. 😉

    #IsItJustMe?

    • Am I the only one who wishes there could be a story or a movie about HUS? Like where some Fairy Blogmother is reading all the stories here and helping people meet each other and fall in love?

      Because I think that would be a really great movie.

      Keep those screenplay ideas coming!

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “Jane Austen saves the day! Is there *anything* those books can’t do?!”

    Like the Mormons, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit laid down her pen 1800 years ago.

    “Neither your moral system nor Jackie’s are particularly robust in answering the questions raised by this situation. Appeals to very shaky authority (Jackie)
    ==============
    Aw, Des! C’mon– my scripture knowledge was LEGIT!”

    And the authority of that scripture is alas in these times shaky at best.

    Your religious experience, and that of HanSolo, varies significantly from my own. I still appreciate the willingness of both of you to share your accounts.

    Those feeling confirmed in their rejection of religion by those accounts don’t know much in the way of history.

  • And no, I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t go date that girl. Just sharing a slightly related experience that his made me think of.

    Since we are sharing. I know I probably going to be label stupid but my own “Faith in the way of romantic liaisons” happened when I was taking my minor on Theology I fell deeply in love with a seminarist that I was taking classes with us. He was totally my type, smart, glasses, skinny… we spent a lot of time debating and discussing stuff. I totally kept my attraction to myself, never made a move and just ate my feelings with ketchup every day and enjoyed his company, I didn’t felt guilty out of it personally I don’t consider thoughts sinful as long as you don’t act on them, I know is not what the church teaches but then there are many reasons why I left. Then he told me one day that he might be thinking quitting his journey to become a priest and that he would do that to be with me if I wanted to, it looks like I was not as conspicuous as I though. Well that was the last day I attended classes, reason I don’t have my title of this subject. The idea that I was going to be the cause of someone’s fall was just unbearable and no matter what I would think that every single day of my life. A modern Eve. I never saw him again and I have no idea what is of his life. I hope he is happy wherever he might be.
    I really don’t regret it though I know that if I had fell into temptation I would had never forgive myself, so in that aspect am at peace with this choice. I might go to hell but I’m not dragging anyone with me. 😉

    • @Anacaona

      Wow, that’s quite a story! In my community there is a married couple – a former Jesuit priest and nun. He is now the rector at the Episcopal church and they have two children, but they both attend Mass from time to time at my parish. He is still very close to the pastor.

      I don’t view them as having fallen, though, except in love. 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Des
    ““Jane Austen saves the day! Is there *anything* those books can’t do?!”

    Like the Mormons, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit laid down her pen 1800 years ago.”
    ======
    Hahaha! Well played, good sir. ;-D

    So… does that mean you will consider my suggestion of matchmaking a la “Emma”? Mr. Knightley got a pretty awesome ending.

    #TeamAusten4Evah

  • Rice n Beans

    Am I the only one who wishes there could be a story or a movie about HUS? Like where some Fairy Blogmother is reading all the stories here and helping people meet each other and fall in love?

    Because I think that would be a really great movie. 😉

    #IsItJustMe?”

    I think Susan Walsh should organize a HUS meetup.

  • Jackie

    @Ana

    Ana, have you ever heard of a book called _The Thorn Birds_? It was on my grandmother’s bookshelf and it’s about a million years old– I ended up reading it one day between slaving over her “to do” list. But I digress!

    Anyway, it’s the saga of someone who was led into temptation with a priest, who must choose between the church and the woman he loves. It takes place in Australia, with Irish people on a cattle ranch. I actually didn’t make it to the end of the book, but apparently it was the Twilight of its day. 😉

    • @Jackie

      I recall reading the Thorn Birds in the park during my lunch hour in 1978. It was sooooo good! The televised miniseries starring Richard Chamberlain was unfortunate – I think by that time he was already out as gay.

  • Jackie

    @Rice n Beans
    “I think Susan Walsh should organize a HUS meetup.”

    Rice n Beans, if you are PlainJane/Bag Lady/Polyamorous Desi or a new incarnation, I’m going to be pretty cross with you!

  • Anyway, it’s the saga of someone who was led into temptation with a priest, who must choose between the church and the woman he loves. It takes place in Australia, with Irish people on a cattle ranch. I actually didn’t make it to the end of the book, but apparently it was the Twilight of its day.

    Heh haven’t read that one. I actually had an idea for an Erotica along those lines, but my characters are not ready yet. I’m also sure my deacon father will not speak to me for the rest of his life if I ever publish it, so in the “future projects” shelf for now 😉

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    Thanks.

    I definitely saw many of the conscientious agonize over minor things, feeling like they were irredeemable sinners in ways that the less pious just can’t even fathom.

    That said, though, there was certainly a real spiritual power that I did feel at church. There were times where I felt like I was feeling the Spirit and I just felt so much love for everyone and really wanted to lift people up and help them.

    I think that religion combines two discordant elements. 1) An uplifting spiritual vision of love, kindness and joy 2) A very tribally-based us-vs-them mentality with a strict code to follow that demands banishment and punishment (psychological and social in more modern settings and including physical, including death, in more rigid and ancient societies).

    The church and God used to be everything but at some point that world view was shattered. I’m gradually picking up the pieces. For a while I was numb and just moved away from anything but I am very spiritual by nature and am finding ways to gradually be a bit more spiritual again and focus on the element-1 side of religion/spirituality while avoiding element 2.

    I appreciate your posts and think that I can relate to many of your experiences and can empathize with you (if from the male side of things).

    Thanks for wishing me well with Leia. 😉 I mean, she’s such an entitled princess. She really exasperates me but that kind of turns me on. It really pissed me off when she kissed Luke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPIi6P-fbpk

    I mean, come on, she really likes me but she just can’t admit it…I’m not royalty and I have a bit of a past but there’s secretly a part of her that wants someone that will put her in her place. I mean look at this scene where I said goodbye and she tried to keep me from going but then wouldn’t admit it.

    http://www.hark.com/clips/ywbcqfxqzl-id-just-as-soon-kiss-a-wookiee

    I’m still trying to get the Millenium Falcon fixed. Gotta go pay Jabba–that bastard! So, we’ll see what happens with Leia.

  • Andrew

    @HanSolo

    “I have to agree with that largely since it seems like many women today (not all, maybe not most but certainly enough to have a huge effect on the market) have a much more “masculine” attitude and think romantic behaviour is wimpy. They have taken on the attitudes that they claim exist in men (but really only in the player types who grab their attention–apex fallacy).”

    Lol, that description just made think of every girl that I’ve talked to in my life and started to put the pieces together as to why they adopt a lot of masculine attitudes. It made me think about this one girl that I use to work with. She was a pretty Bosnian girl (only unattractive thing about her was that she smoked cigarettes) and I had no romantic interest in her, but we were friends. I had shared with her that I was a virgin and she was shocked and thought that I slept around because that’s what most guys do. Off topic question, do you think that your description relates to why some girls become tomboys or is that something not related?

    “As someone who at heart really wants a deep and romantic relationship I have learned that I have to really hold that back until I see the women showing more interest.”

    That’s pretty much what I do, lol. But to others it seems like that’s the wrong way to go about it. I guess I still have a problem with adopting game strategies because it just wouldn’t make any sense for me to waste my time talking to a woman who’s not remotely interested in me. I understand the whole building attraction and the confidence boost, but I feel like it’s much more natural to have that when you’re talking to a woman who is interested in you.

    “The American girls from 20-30 go on about how they’re sarcastic, ball-busting and if you can’t take it then get out of the kitchen, and that they’re just looking for someone they can do stuff with (no problem there). Many ask where all the real men are. Very little, but sometimes some, “feminine” content in their profiles. After 30 they start to say stuff about how they’re looking for someone serious.”

    Oh my god, I’ve seen so many of those profiles and it pisses me off because I can tell that they’re full of shit especially when you look at some of the questions that they answered. I just recently dropped the whole online dating because I feel like it’s a complete waste.

    “Meanwhile, in the Brazilian profiles it was very much so looking for a serious relationship, for love, etc. And, parenthetically, a significantly higher percentage of the Brazilian men are players (and damn, many of them are smooth and charming) and so there’s a combination of the players being rewarded by women saying they want LTR’s but also there is a big female market of unmet romantic LTR’s.”

    How successful were you with dating women in Brazil? How old were the women that were looking for serious relationships in Brazil?

    “FWIW I often feel like an idiot after I put myself out in certain situations. You are the only one who knows how you feel and it can certainly feel a bit awkward or disheartening to really open up but I hope that you don’t feel like an idiot. I think that the responses here have been a mix of outright sympathy, practical advice and tough love. I don’t think you made a big mistake about mentioning your virginity and it brought out some interesting discussion.”

    I don’t normally go on forums to comment, but I guess for some reason I felt like I had to here. It’s a lot easier and comfortable for me to express myself in public/person rather than on the internet. For some reason, I felt like I was being pulled into one direction and into another direction. I guess I was bothered by people giving me praise for my virginity and questioning their sincerity since someone had mentioned not to be fooled by it.

  • Just a thought

    No, Jackie, you’re not the only one. 🙂
    Andrew, the “wait until women show interest” is -imho a really bad strategy.
    Why?
    Because in this SMP, women often may have feelings for you and never act on them. I know that all the guys I liked never knew. Part of it is because I have never learned how to flirt ( like many women, because we learned that the only way to show a guy you liked him was to show up naked to his apartment door), part of it is because of our bitch shields. Anyway, you are better off pursuing than waiting for her to show interest.

    A funny point,
    I was talking to my mom about how I’d consider marrying a less alpha guy than my dad.
    mom: You don’t want a sissy or a mamma’s boy.
    me: But you know, maybe I’d rather marry a guy who is a bit less dominant and more accommodating.
    It’s kind of funny, because at one point I see that a nice guy is a better bet than me, but on the other hand my mom married my dad who
    -makes more money than her
    -almost never steps in the kitchen
    – whom she runs all her decisions by
    I still obviously love my dad, but I think he’s a bit much, while she turned down one “sissy boy” – as she calls it
    and another man who brought a car to woo her with was verbally abused.
    My mom’s more feminist than I am!
    Still love her though.

  • Rice n Beans

    Just a Thought, from the above description, what makes your mom “feminist”?

  • Cooper

    “since someone had mentioned not to be fooled by it”

    *waves*

    It’s interesting to think about it in terms of masculine behavior, and a desire for romance. I think romance is exactly what I’m looking for – wholeheartedly like Han said. Defining it as masculine behavior makes sense. They feel like they want to do it like “guys.” Have what (*cough*whom) they want, when they want. And romance would definitely not be included – in fact, in terms of Game I’m not sure whether romance would be suggest.

    PS Great sharing! – HanSolo 588,589 – Anacaona 604 – Andrew 611

  • HanSolo

    @Andrew

    Off topic question, do you think that your description relates to why some girls become tomboys or is that something not related?

    Most tomboys I have met seem more intrinsically masculine in their tomboy interests but I’m sure a masculinizing-of-girls culture probably amps that up further in a lot of girls. Plus, in a safe and rich society, women don’t need men as much and are free to act all badass with fewer repercussions.

    “As someone who at heart really wants a deep and romantic relationship I have learned that I have to really hold that back until I see the women showing more interest.”

    That’s pretty much what I do, lol. But to others it seems like that’s the wrong way to go about it.

    Usually you have to make the first move as a man. Being bold in a non-needy way can be a turn-on if you have enough inner and outer confidence and body language to pull it off without flinching. Basically laying it out there that you really like her sexually or for some other reason you noticed. This is known as direct game and done in the right way can be powerful.

    How successful were you with dating women in Brazil? How old were the women that were looking for serious relationships in Brazil?

    Women there, and in Latin America in general, are on average more likely to look for a relationship at a much earlier age than in the US. There is much less stigma about younger women dating somewhat older men. So, in the US a 25 y/o girl is going to be looking more for a guy 25-32 whereas down there it would be more like 25-38. There are some gold-diggers but there pretty easy to spot and there really were a lot of cute, sweet, romantic girls looking for LTRs (a lot of ugly ones too! lol). I associated more with MC and UMC and they didn’t seem at all like the slutty reputation that many foreigners assume. It’s a quite open-to-kissing culture but less casual sex with strangers. I suspect that the poorer women are sluttier.

    My success with women there was higher than in the US but not as easy as some people would make you think. There’s a big myth that the Brazilian women will be all over any foreigner and so on but I saw several attractive guys striking out and ending up settling for gf’s that I thought weren’t that hot really. The women there that I interacted weren’t into ONS’s and such although I think there’s more casual sex going on with guys they know and trust. The women have high suspicion of gringos just wanting sex and so you really had to allay that fear and so many gringos actually would get shot down. I often told women I wasn’t just looking for casual and that I was ideally looking for a gf. I had a couple gf’s while down there but broke up due to not being compatible enough. The overall attractiveness of the women I dated down there wasn’t necessarily higher than in the US. I’m kind of picky and so in the US I had to wait much longer, maybe 4x, to find an equally attractive woman. Some of the hottest women I have ever seen were there, a higher % than many other countries but still a small %. I saw more 9.5-10’s there. In Argentina I was blown away by the number of 8’s on the street but never really saw any 9+’s. So, in Arg, more 8’s but in Brazil, more 9+’s than in Argentina but it seemed like less 8’s. It also varies by region but there was this one place where there were more cute girls and I remember seeing several 9.5-10’s and I literally felt like I’d been punched in the gut, they were so hot. Also, once they do like you though, they are very sensual and love sex. In an LTR with most Brazilian women you’re not going to be worrying as much as you hear about up here about not getting sex.

    Overall, Brazil was great but definitely not the easy paradise that many men and women claim. I have a good theory as to why the slutty reputation exists but just didn’t find it to be true though. In fact, a large % of the women wanting a good LTR amidst a lot of very charming Brazilian men–they’re very good at picking up women (at least they seemed so, maybe I’m apex-fallacizing) and had a reputation for cheating. If you can combine charisma and wanting an LTR you should be able to do quite well there. I have moments of charisma and moments of beta-awkwardness but at least there you can often compliment and a girl and she won’t cut off your dick! lol

    For some reason, I felt like I was being pulled into one direction and into another direction. I guess I was bothered by people giving me praise for my virginity and questioning their sincerity since someone had mentioned not to be fooled by it.

    The praise for your virginity was from girls like Jackie, a virgin and a sincere sweetheart. You can expect the same from real-life Jackies but they’re a small %. And praising your values doesn’t mean attraction. In real life a virgin could applaud your virginity and not be attracted to you, but not because you’re a virgin, just because she doesn’t like you for whatever reason. Skanky chicks might look down on you but you don’t want them anyway. None of my gf’s ever looked down on me for my zero or low-N past. So, the main takeaway point is that most women assume virgin means involuntary virgin (and most women like some sort of social proof or other) whereas voluntary virgin who is attractive is attractive anyway.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper 614

    It’s interesting to think about it in terms of masculine behavior, and a desire for romance. I think romance is exactly what I’m looking for – wholeheartedly like Han said.

    One of the biggest things I have had to work on is that since I am a romantic at heart that I can easily get big crushes on girls quickly. I am often able to discern if a girl is awesome or not too which plays to my disadvantage because I know relatively quickly if she’s my type or not. Unfortunately, the women would interpret this as being too needy (and in some ways I was) and coming on too strong. I’m still not great at it but when I have that feeling that she could be the one I just have to really clamp down and try to think of all the thing I don’t know about her yet and not show too much interest (notice, I’m not saying NO interest) and allow her the necessary joy of feeling like she has to struggle to get me and conquer the untameable man, a bit like a bird strengthening its wings as it breaks out of the shell.

    Ironically, there have been a couple of girls with higher SMV than me where we kind of showed mutual interest at first but that I then had doubts about as I got to know them more and didn’t show as much interest and they were totally into me.

    Anyway, still looking for love…. lol

  • Just a thought

    Rice N beans,
    It’s my fault for not being clear.
    My mom’s been pretty adamant about being ambitious, having a career, doing whatever men can do, and she scared off guys who were “sisssy boys” i.e. not alpha enough for her. Though to be honest, she’s never once cheated on my dad and my father has never cheated on her.

    Anyway, I have a question. Right now the SMP is only working for a few people. To me, the biggest problem seems to be women’s attraction triggers. I.e. Women won’t date/marry/put out for the nice guys they say they want. So is there anyway for women to overcome their biological desires and stay faithful to a beta guy instead of pining for the alpha male? Obviously, we will never go back to the 1960s viewpoint of men working, women staying at home. The question is how can we create a more equal version of relationships, one not based on a dominant role (for the woman or the man)/ submissive role but a partnership.It seems that if the man doesn’t take control in a relationship, there is always a power vacuum, that the women may end up filling, but hate herself for doing so. Is there anyway, we can have a successful female blogger create a new sphere, similar to PUA, but for women who want to learn how to fall in love and stay in love with beta men who will value their children, help them in hard times and love them until they die?

  • Ted D

    Susan – I’ve stated many times that I think our current society is sick. But in the end, it doesn’t change the fact that an 18yo is legally an adult. You wouldn’t catch me having sex with one, but I don’t blame any man my age for going after one if they have a shot. If there is one thing I’ve learned from the ‘sphere: morality has nothing to do with getting tail for some guys. If her parents did thier job, she shouldn’t be chasing old dudes like me.

    If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were painting such a woman as a victim. Does she not have her own agency? Does she not decide who to sleep with? Why is it on the older man to keep things moral? Right now I’m laying in bed looking out at the Vegas strip. I’ve seen hundreds of very young women (by my old ass standards at least…) dressed like professional call girls. If one of them sleeps with a guy her fathers age, who’s falt is it? Since she is the gate keeper, I’d have to say most of it falls on her. But I feel like you and a few others put the “blame” squarely on the man’s shoulders, and I can’t help but think that is a VERY femcentric viewpoint.

    That being said, morally I’m with you 100%. But morals don’t matter much these days, and I’m in sin city…

    • @Ted D

      If there is one thing I’ve learned from the ‘sphere: morality has nothing to do with getting tail for some guys.

      You don’t say!

      If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were painting such a woman as a victim. Does she not have her own agency? Does she not decide who to sleep with? Why is it on the older man to keep things moral?… I’ve seen hundreds of very young women (by my old ass standards at least…) dressed like professional call girls.

      They probably are professionals, lol. I think we must acknowledge that a Las Vegas stripper and a lifeguard in a Speedo tank teaching toddlers to swim are two very different people. I’m sure there is no shortage of 18 yo prostitutes. Outside the sex trades, society frowns upon people with much more experience or authority sexually targeting those with less, and there is a huge gap here. I think most everyone agrees that it is not normal or expected for an 18 yo girl to be attracted to a 42 yo man. (Marianne Dashwood certainly was not attracted to Col. Brandon.) Therefore, we deduce that something is “off,” i.e. she is not in her right mind.

      Talking about getting some sexual practice with an allegedly promiscuous and probably emotionally disturbed girl your daughter’s age with the justification that you’ll represent an “improvement” over her fratty boyfriends is cringe inducing. I confess that his being a high school teacher adds to the creepiness factor.

      My history teacher in high school married a former cheerleader, and they started dating the minute she got out of high school and all through her time at college. But there was an age difference there of only 7 years, and even that raised many eyebrows.

  • Just1X

    @JustAThought

    if society stopped subsidising single motherhood to the point that it became a viable life choice (an attractive option), then I think that a lot of behaviour would clear up.

    I’m not talking about starving kids etc, just a very basic support of food and shelter.

    In the UK there are many girls deciding that their best life option is to get pregnant and get benefits with a free flat for life…and they’re right; it probably is their best option. Sucks for society as this is where you get gangs of feral kids from.

    Time to get rid of daddy-state and treat people like adults, adults who know that decisions have consequences. Sleep with a bad-boy and get pregnant? Your life will suck and you know it before doing the deed (this bit appears to be the key problem; women find out afterwards that they made a mistake).

    Removing consequences from bad decisions means that lessons aren’t learned, so more bad decisions get made.

  • Just a thought

    What about more shaming of”alphas” and absentee fatherhood? and would that really change anything Just1X, or just increase the rate of abortions and indigent women/ children? I don’t think women who are single moms get the gravy train, from what I’ve seen working with food stamps, it’s not the kind of life I’d opt into. I’ve heard that benefits are better in Britain though.

    My original question still stands though: Is there anyway for women to overcome biology?

  • Just1X

    “What about more shaming of”alphas” and absentee fatherhood?”

    not a viable strategy, and is already in use (just not working, is it?). You hadn’t noticed? this stuff has been covered before on this blog, I’m sure that Susan can supply links from her search options.

    “or just increase the rate of abortions and indigent women/ children?”

    the idea is to stop the next generation from getting pregnant in the first place, rather than just bleat about the issue of single mothers whilst giving them enough money to make single motherhood a viable attractive option for the next generation. this is what liberals (US version) do; make a fuss, throw money around and make the problem worse. adults try and sort the issue out, but politicians don’t get elected by telling the ‘cruel’ truth and doing difficult things, not in your country and not in mine either.

    I don’t think that these UK women are on the gravy train either, but it’s a low effort life choice that is sufficiently attractive that it is taken. And the grim reality often doesn’t become apparant until the kid(s) is born. I think that it’d work better if people (women) saw it as a crap option BEFORE getting into it.

    “My original question still stands though: Is there anyway for women to overcome biology?”

    Yes, live in a society where sleeping with bad boys is visibly a crap option because ‘you’ know that ‘YOU’ are going to have to live with the shitty consequences. But first you need to teach people that certain actions have irrevocable consequences, and see what the baby momma lifestyle really is.

    Daddy state hides and removes consequences, so people fail to make good decisions. Across generations, this snowballs into an eternal underclass of morlocks, with a vapid eloi celebutard cultcha ‘above’ it.

    Stop making idiots into role models. In what effed-up reality are people like Paris Hilton and the Kardasians role models? Or any of the bonobos on Jersey Shore? These people should be mocked relentlessly, not adored on any level whatsoever. (IMHO)

    Time to make intelligence and character ‘good things’ again, not boring Beta stuff. Stupidity used to be shameful, something to struggle out of via education and effort, now it’s ‘my opinion is just as valid as your’s’. Well, no it isn’t if you’re a grandmother in your twenties with all your income and housing coming from the state.

  • Ramble

    It sounds like evangelical Christians have an SMP all their own, and it is wacked.

    They are responding to a wacked culture and having a difficult time figuring out what to do.

  • OffTheCuff

    Jack: “All it did was paralyze me to the point of inaction– I didn’t want God to zap me with a lightning bolt from the sky! So hearing your viewpoint really helps me understand some of the Christian men I’ve dated. (Like they are going to be scorched if they touch me, think they are unattracted to me, since the escalation is about the speed of molasses.)”

    Even former Christian, as that was exactly how I was until about 20. After I finally lost it at 19, I remember distinctly wanting to kill myself, because I was terrified of being “caught”.

    Han’s story is familiar to me, except mine is even worse. When I was 17, a pretty blond girl took me to her stepdad’s boat to hang out after a date, where she even told me, in words, to kiss her. I was stupid and just gave her a peck, she probably thought I was gay. Yeah, she was a church girl… one who had no problem with having concurrent boyfriends and FWB’s. Too bad I didn’t understand this at the time, and figured if she was a chruch kid like me, she operated under the church rules.

  • Desiderius

    Su,

    no longer a teacher

    do get regular IOI’s from healthy young women

    the pics I sent you are out of date, maybe?

    she wasn’t the training toddlers type

    everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not own facts

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “So… does that mean you will consider my suggestion of matchmaking a la “Emma”? Mr. Knightley got a pretty awesome ending.”

    hmmm, another older man with a younger woman. Is the difference that the sex happened after marriage perhaps? So maybe that distinction isn’t so irrelevant after all?

    Susan’s generation is pretty gunshy about matchmaking, and that is who is in my church. been getting some leads via social circle.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    Losing internet today, so some closing thoughts.

    “My history teacher in high school married a former cheerleader, and they started dating the minute she got out of high school and all through her time at college. But there was an age difference there of only 7 years, and even that raised many eyebrows.”

    The man whose name is on the football stadium of my high school, a much revered and productive man and faithful husband and father throughout his life, did the same thing, except he was a principal at the time and she was captain of the cheerleading squad.

    This of course would be unthinkable these days.

    (a) many young women are naturally attracted to accomplished, physically appealing older men

    (b) it is better in general for society, and even in most cases for the young woman herself, if she “rolls her own” such man by finding a promising young man and helping him become that accomplished, physically appealing older man

    Of course you and I believe acting on (a) to be not only suboptimal, but also wrong, to the extent that you deny it is even true (it isn’t in fact true for you or women who’ve been raised as you have). This is due to our upbringing.

    Here’s the nut: that “up” in upbringing and the idea of being “raised” itself posits that a judgement has been made. One is better/higher than the other. If non-judgmentalism is the highest value, that distinction dissappears and we revert to what is natural/base, which is very much (a).

    I’m enough of a stoic that I’m sticking with (b) regardless of what anyone else is doing. There are not enough stoics, however, for you to field a full team. Something has to give.

  • @Susan

    My history teacher in high school married a former cheerleader, and they started dating the minute she got out of high school and all through her time at college. But there was an age difference there of only 7 years, and even that raised many eyebrows.

    Let me get out my broken record again.

    That was true when we were in HS and still is. However, a female teacher can get pregnant by the QB of the football team and even if it is statutory rape get child support from him…that needs to be remember. So so men will ask, “Where is the equality?” and decide it’s okay to bang 18 years.

    Plus, 25 years ago that man was criticized. Now pretty much all men are criticized in the culture at large for not being 100% perfect examples of what a specific women wants all the time. If I’m a bad person no matter what I do why not be the bad person who has fun?

  • Desiderius

    HanSolo,

    “A very tribally-based us-vs-them mentality with a strict code to follow that demands banishment and punishment (psychological and social in more modern settings and including physical, including death, in more rigid and ancient societies)”

    In other words the Pharisees against whom Jesus railed and for just these reasons. They may have retained some of the letter of the law, but they have entirely lost its Spirit.

    That sort of Christianity (though that social dysfunction is far from unique from Christianity, or indeed religion) has made itself a sub-culture. Dysfunctional sub-cultures are a part of human life, you deal with it.

    The problem is that much of the wider culture we all share has identified itself by its opposition to that subculture, thereby cutting itself off from much of its own cultural heritage, a heritage that in fact was much more liberal and progressive than the mess so frantically advocated by our leading lights.

    There is a faithful remnant keeping that heritage alive. If our Catwomen ever decide to seek out their own CleanSlate, that is where they will truly find it.

  • HanSolo

    @Desiderius

    Thank you for comments and that song. I listened. It touched me deeply. It spoke to my spiritual side which has lain dormant (but not forgotten) for several years since my world view, and really my world, was shattered. I was moved to tears as I listened and as I write this as I am having insights about my path in life and I’m feeling in touch with the core of my being, that core being love, an uplifting and unselfish love that though often not always at the forefront of my conscious thought, feeling or actions, and in fact buried deep under the emotional scars of the psychological and spiritual trauma of my estrangement from my former church and even God “himself”, is at the depths of my being.

    As a young teenager my dallies into sin (though very slight or not sins at all from my current perspective) brought me into unpleasant contact with the rules I felt I should live by. Then as an older teenager, due to spiritual experiences that made God, Jesus, my church and the gospel seem real, right and true to me, I decided to fully commit and lived as best I could. During this time frame and into my 20’s I largely avoided any “sins” that brought me into contact with the rigid rules I was following. But my journey wasn’t mainly about rigid rules, though I did follow them 99.9% of the time. It was about the uplifting spiritual side of feeling the redemption and love of Jesus that often did fill my soul with an unselfish love and desire to help others succeed and be happy. Feeling this love and acting upon it made me deeply happy. In fact, it brought me joy.

    And so, in the midst of this, certain health issues arose that eventually brought me into contact with the “sinful” boundaries that I had so long avoided.

    The uplifting side of the gospel became drowned out by the guilt and failed attempts at repenting. Whereas my God/religious/spirituality-centered life had been often joyful and good it was now miserable. I wasn’t able to live up to everything anymore. And yes, we did often talk about how Jesus saves us and makes up for our deficiencies but there was still a huge emphasis on following all the rules and commandments and the implication that if you weren’t following everything that you didn’t have enough faith and that you should just pray harder, fast longer and be less selfish.

    After frequent and prolonged attempts at repentance I finally realized that it wasn’t me (mostly) that was wrong it was certain of the church’s excessively strict teachings that were not realistic for the vast majority of the people trying to follow them. (And no, not all of the teachings were excessively strict and I still believe a majority of them are good.)

    You mention the Pharisees. I believe in reasonable rules but excessively strict rules and the excessive desire for control are insidious to human freedom and happiness. I called this the tribal side of human nature and I suppose it worked very well to keep the tribe united and following things that worked on the Savannah or in the forests. Things are enforced by fear of banishment or death. You defend your own against enemies. This tribal nature is evident to varying extents most everywhere, whether it be a political party, a religion, a company, a college football team….

    The uplifting side of love and doing things out of positive motivation is the part of religion and spirituality that I love. Ideally, everyone would be motivated this way and we would have a utopia of sorts. But the world isn’t ideal and we need to have rules that are enforced while encouraging people to strive for the ideal. Of course, this becomes difficult because the ideal is unclear and how strict or lax the rules should be is also. In spite of the difficulty of defining these things I definitely believe that hypocritical and letter-of-the-law Phariseeism should be rooted out and replaced with reasonable rules that are in accordance with human nature in ways that help us (instead of hindering) aspire to the ideals of living by love.

    To conclude, thank you Desiderius for sharing your words and the song. They have helped me feel more connected again to who I really am at heart, someone who has a lot of love to give, someone who both wants to give and receive it…charitable love to those around me and romantic love to a future partner. I am grateful.

  • Rice n Beans

    “Right now the SMP is only working for a few people. ”

    And who’s that? Please don’t say the hottest people. One walk outside your front door will confirm that average and below average looking people with ordinary lives have partners.

    Nobody can “work” the welfare system in the US anymore, at least not American citizens 😉 Clinton’s welfare reform put a cap on lifelong welfare. You have to find a job and get off it within a certain period of time.

  • I think that it’d work better if people (women) saw it as a crap option BEFORE getting into it.

    Maybe that should be another show for HUSTV: Welfare Queen along the lines of “Teen Mom” Showing the harsh realities of single motherhood even with the aid of the government.

    I don’t view them as having fallen, though, except in love.

    I don’t critize anyone that will go for it. I’m sure they decided together that their calling was better served as a couple. But in my culture were men do all sorts of horrible stuff for a piece of punani, finding a man willing to forsake this for his faith then becoming “The punani that destroy it all” was for me too much to bear. I’m sure I would had never being able to pass that, every problem, every disease, every issue we have I will think of God punishing us. I never regretted it even when I was thinking that I would had never meet any other man like him, but hey like I said the few people I had told this story think I was stupid so I get the other reading.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona…thanks for your story.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I think it’s terrible that you felt guilty for French kissing!

    Too much micro-managing and claiming certain relatively-insignificant things to be sinful and not enough focus on the spirit of the law kills spirituality. Some people see this as a way to control people. You put out enough commandments so that everyone will violate them and you get them feeling guilty about that and then the church/religion/whatever is the means of salvation. I certainly don’t think this is all there is to religion as I have experienced that higher love and spiritual purpose (what I would call the positive side of religion) but it seems to be at play to some extent in many religions. Unfortunately this distracts good-hearted people from doing good into guilty withdrawal, not feeling worthy to do God’s work and spending needless energy on repenting of non-sins. Those sincere, good-hearted followers who least need the call to repentance are the ones who most take it to heart while those most in need are out remorselessly feasting on the spoils of their sins.

  • @Anacaona
    But in my culture were men do all sorts of horrible stuff for a piece of punani, finding a man willing to forsake this for his faith then becoming “The punani that destroy it all” was for me too much to bear.

    I laughed at your wording, but I agree with you 100%!

    I’m sure I would had never being able to pass that, every problem, every disease, every issue we have I will think of God punishing us.

    Incidentally, I know of a woman who left her husband for a priest! So she actually destroyed two things: her first marriage and his vocation. She has actually been very happy since then, however, which probably makes her decision easier to live with.

    But how is this for the “Catholic hamster” . . . I once expressed distaste at her choice in front of two male friends, saying that any woman who goes after a priest is simply shameless. And they defended her, arguing that it was likely that her second husband didn’t have a “real” vocation and that she helped him discover his “true” vocation. *headdesk* Well, what do you know? Men do have hamsters of their own. 😛

  • And they defended her, arguing that it was likely that her second husband didn’t have a “real” vocation and that she helped him discover his “true” vocation. *headdesk* Well, what do you know? Men do have hamsters of their own

    Is the sex Bellita, the sex. The majority of men register “getting laid” and run their hamster to find little fault at it. Regardless if the guy cheated, abandoned 20 kids, renounced his “vocation”…., the male hamster is designed to justify getting laid no matter how with very few exceptions. is the same as “I though it will be different with me” “I can change him” ‘He is just misunderstood” for women.
    Oh well our hamsters seem to find that getting commitment from a guy is not worth destroying certain choices, I’m happy for that. 😀

  • Sai

    #621 -Just1X
    “Stop making idiots into role models. In what effed-up reality are people like Paris Hilton and the Kardasians role models? Or any of the bonobos on Jersey Shore? These people should be mocked relentlessly, not adored on any level whatsoever. (IMHO)”

    BLESS YOU
    I tried to watch Jersey Shore and quit after 5 minutes or so. None of these people actually DO anything… why are they so effin’ popular?!

    Here’s a joke for language nerds: the Kardashian Kollection logo resembles the Cyrillic letter pronounced “zh.” This is the first letter in the Russian slang term for “arse,” which is what my mom says is the only reason for those bimbos being famous.

  • Rice n Beans

    ” So she actually destroyed two things: her first marriage and his vocation.”

    How is she responsible for “destroying his vocation”? Was he not an adult with a fully functioning brain with which he could make is own decisions?

  • Jackie and HanSolo should exchange e-mail addresses. *Hint hint nudge nudge* 😉

  • Hope, you optimistic matchmaker, you! 😉

  • Bellita, I’m a sucker for a good true love story! 🙂

  • Bellita, I’m a sucker for a good true love story!

    We also need to complete our “social” board. I mean we have had two marriages so far (Ted, Lokland) and two babies coming (Hope and me)… we need more matchmaking too to complete the HUS human experience. 🙂

  • Cooper

    Anacaona #642

    Lol. Very true.

  • Just1X

    No Sai, thank YOU!

    I thought that it was just me that despairs of celebrity culture.

    I have favourite movie stars and musicians, but have no interest in their political views and religion, marital status, philosophy, UTI health or pregnancies…and I do not understand why anybody else does. I have a similar problem with the lympics regarding how far, high or fast they can throw / jump / run or pedal. This makes watching the news worse than normal. Euro crash? Banks failing? nahhh! look at the men run fast whoooo!

  • Just1X

    p.s.
    thanks for the spell checker Tante Susan.

    It’s slightly off on occasion (colour, flavour, odour, favour, honour, tyre, organise, subsidise), but every little helps.

    Latin? mea navis aëricumbens anguillis abundat – sadly for Mr Python, no…

  • Rice n Beans is Plain Jane. I recognize the style now.

  • Abbot

    “average and below average looking people with ordinary lives have partners.”

    That is not the SMP. It works best first for the few men who are passing around all the delusional lemurs who pass through the cock gauntlet duped by some sort of faux agency pumping their fists chanting something about sexual expression and “finding themselves.”

    It works second best for the female participants who with no effort whatsoever can have an all expense paid birth canal stuffing session with always willing penis attached to the best face and body that will have her at any given moment.

    It works least best for most men [aka nearly all men] who are effectively iced out of the above described harem.

    • all the delusional lemurs who pass through the cock gauntlet

      Abbot is giving Roissy a run for his money lately.

  • SayWhaat

    Confirmed Jackie/HanSolo shipper here. 😉

  • Jackie
  • Jackie

    @Hope, SayWhaat, Ana

    You guys! 😳

    If people do want to say Hi, I am HUSsie.Jackie@Gmail.Com. My email avatar is my cat in a sparkle bikini, looking very annoyed at the camera. :mrgreen:

  • also intj

    Great job nudging, Hope!

  • I’m totally emailing you Jackie! 🙂

  • J

    She’s 41 and I’m 45. Even if she wanted to have children we’re too old to responsibly start a family.

    *The world’s oldest and least responsible mom clears her throat.* I beg to differ, Herb.

    Doesn’t mean I didn’t want them.

    It’s still doable if you want it. It’s harder, but doable.

  • Herb

    @J

    She’s 41 and I’m 45. Even if she wanted to have children we’re too old to responsibly start a family.

    *The world’s oldest and least responsible mom clears her throat.* I beg to differ, Herb.

    Let us just chalk that up to a difference of opinion. At this point I’m iffy on living to 65 much less the 72 my own father reached and I’d be starting 20 years later than him.

    To my own sense of responsibility that isn’t responsible. YMMV.

    Doesn’t mean I didn’t want them.

    It’s still doable if you want it. It’s harder, but doable.

    Yes, let’s discuss the key harder: I’d have to find someone. My current relationship (remember, she does not want children) has now lasted longer than anything since my marriage. We met in early June of last year and my divorce was final July 31, 2002.

    Even if we assume a seeking period of half that gap and that I dump the current gf today and start looking we’re talking 49 before I would find a potential month and at best 51 before being a father.

    That’s assuming that halving is reasonable. While I have made a lot of positive changes since 2002 of late I’ve gone back. I know having to go off Strattera with no available replacement (it was the only drug approved for heart patients in that area because all of the others are stimulants and now it’s off the list because a NRI/ARI is basically a back-door stimulant) because she’s pointed it out and that maybe I could find a holistic substitute. I’m tempted to just get a script via an online doc (my IRL ones won’t prescribe) via selective admission and buy from Canada (generics are already available up there)…living a couple of years less in exchange for not being crazy seems like a fair trade off.

    Anyway, the point is even if I agreed with you about the responsible side the risk/reward balance is really anti-children at this point. Game theory analysis gives me four outcomes:

    Drop GF and get it: Value 4 (wife and kids)
    Drop GF and not get it: Value 0
    Keep GF and get it: Impossible
    Keep GF and not get it: Value 1

    I’m at a Nash equilibrium and thus have no value to gain by changing my strategy only.

  • HanSolo

    Mischievous Hope! And your band of matchmaking fairies! lol I woke up this morning and was walking through the beautiful nearby mountains to all of a sudden see a massive shower of cupid arrows coming my way. I ran for the hills…we’ll see who’s faster, me or the arrows. 😀 But lest you think me an ingrate I did write. lol

  • J

    I see your point, Herb. And I do have to admit that the genetic tendency toward long life factored into my decision to keep trying to have kids for as long as I did.

  • J

    But there was an age difference there of only 7 years, and even that raised many eyebrows.

    Because people can change and grow a lot in those 7 years. The difference between an 18 yo and a 25 yo is far greater than the diffference between a 35yo and a 42 yo. Also, that teacher-student relationship is one influenced by the far greater power and knowledge of the teacher and the trust that soicety invests in teachers. There’s a potential for a real abuse of power there.

  • J

    Or any of the bonobos on Jersey Shore?

    How dare you compare those people to bonobos! Apologize to the bonobos right now!

  • HanSolo, that’s the spirit! 🙂

  • Just1X

    @J
    sorry, I thought bonobos used sex without (thought or) morality for casual relationships…the comparison to Jersey Shore (there is a UK equivalent featuring Geordies IIRC) was instinctual…my bad.

    In many ways I prefer to watch ‘in the wild’ documentaries to ‘inner shitty’ ones. You can’t expect monkeys to understand morality, you are still aloud to hope humans do (last I heard), however, reality can disappoint…

    🙂

  • J

    @J1X

    sorry, I thought bonobos used sex without (thought or) morality for casual relationships…

    Well, they do, but they are still more evolved than the denizens of Jersey Shore. It was species-ist of you to ignore that. 😉

    In many ways I prefer to watch ‘in the wild’ documentaries to ‘inner shitty’ ones. You can’t expect monkeys to understand morality, you are still aloud to hope humans do (last I heard), however, reality can disappoint

    I’m being serious now. Primates freak me out because they resemble people so closely while lacking the redeeming features of humans. Snookie, et al. make me reconsider that position. They have less sense than a monkey.

  • Well, they do, but they are still more evolved than the denizens of Jersey Shore. It was species-ist of you to ignore that.

    I classified them as Homo Realitus (a.k.a Homo No Sapiens nada) a mutant subgenus of the Homo born out of fast food and TV radiation. They are more prone to stupidity, assholism, and flashiness sadly they have the uncanny ability to make other people feel smarter hence their popularity.

  • Just1X

    Sadly though, infamy is seen as fame by many these days. It truly seems to be true that there’s no such thing as bad publicity nowadays.

    They must be making out pretty well financially as well.

    (#667 can’t believe I borked aloud / allowed. doh!)

    Did nobody look up “mea navis aëricumbens anguillis abundat”?
    Am I the only (semi-)fan of Monty Python?
    “A relatively common recent Latinization inspired by the Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook sketch by Monty Python”
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/my-hovercraft-is-full-of-eels-in-76-languages/

    • @Just1X

      I wasn’t familiar with the hovercraft bit, but this is hilarious:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6D1YI-41ao

      The most HUS-relevant: “I am no longer infected.”

  • Am I the only (semi-)fan of Monty Python?

    Huge fan here, thanks to hubby, I just didn’t saw the original reference. 😀

  • Just1X

    Nice link Susan (hadn’t seen it) AND it gives me an intro for a few Not the Nine O’Clock News clips (hit comedy series from the Beeb after Monty) and references to Fawlty Towers (THE John Cleese classic)

    Not the Nine O’Clock News – Monty Python worshippers (from era of Monty Python’s film – Life of Brian (with a reference to Fawlty Towers)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asUyK6JWt9U&feature=related

    Not the nine o clock news : does god exist?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOMQLhf7N4Q&feature=related

    (love this one – just go with it, don’t think about it…)
    Rowan Atkinson – Not the Nine O’Clock News Telephone Sketch (parody of a 70’s tech show Tomorrow’s World)
    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7L3iSZsNpY&feature=related

    and a crude return to the court scene of MP in Susan’s clip

    Not the Nine O’Clock News – Alibi
    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO569fBzUO8

    Not the Nine O’Clock News – Video Cassette Recorder
    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VgwxKW0J6I

    • @Just1X

      That’s a total British humor hit parade you’ve got there – Rowan Atkinson and Fawlty Towers in one comment! FT is one of the best TV shows ever made – pure genius. When I was playing with anagrams to come up with Lackrod, I couldn’t help but recall the sign in the start of each episode. I believe one read, “Farty Towels.”

  • Just1X

    I forgive you Ana(!)

  • Just1X

    The League of Gentlemen – ‘advanced’ ‘strange’ British humour in the noughties’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwFAEOiLH3c&playnext=1&list=PL43ED61321B5BBC4B&feature=results_main

    (all played by men, very weird characters)
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_19?url=search-alias%3Dmovies-tv&field-keywords=league+of+gentlemen&sprefix=league+of+gentlemen%2Caps%2C298
    it’s extremely strange, but kind of grows on you

    • @Just1X

      I don’t believe the League of Gentlemen has made it over here – perhaps on BBC America, but not that I know of. It does seem very strange. I adore British humor, but I suppose there are places that Americans just cannot go…

  • J

    classified them as Homo Realitus (a.k.a Homo No Sapiens nada) a mutant subgenus of the Homo born out of fast food and TV radiation. They are more prone to stupidity, assholism, and flashiness sadly they have the uncanny ability to make other people feel smarter hence their popularity.

    LMAO. Too true!

  • I forgive you Ana(!)

    A stranger on the Internet has forgiven me!!! WOOHOOO I feel redeemed! 😀

  • @Just
    That was really funny. Thanks for sharing 😀

  • SayWhaat

    Primates freak me out because they resemble people so closely while lacking the redeeming features of humans.

    You too, eh? I absolutely dislike primates — chimpanzees, gorillas, and the lot (prosimian primates such as lemurs are adorable, though).

  • Jackie

    @Just1X

    Hey J1x!
    Any thoughts on “One Foot In The Grave”? My sister said it is a really funny series with black and surreal humor– is it worth a go on Netflix?

  • Just1X

    @Susan
    The sign changes as follows:
    Episode 1: “Fawlty Towers” (the letter “S” is askew)
    Episode 2: “Fawlty Tower” (the letter “L” is askew)
    Episode 3: “Fawty Tower” (the letter “W” is askew)
    Episode 4: “Fawty Toer”
    Episode 5: “Warty Towels”
    Episode 7: “Fawlty Tower” (the letter “L” is askew)
    Episode 8: “Watery Fowls”
    Episode 9: “Flay Otters”
    Episode 10: “Fatty Owls”
    Episode 11: “Flowery Twats”
    Episode 12: “Farty Towels”

    ‘Flay Otters’ is my favourite, though there’s a lot to be said for ‘Flowery Twats’
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawlty_Towers)

    • @Just1X

      Thanks for the laugh, those signs were hilarious. Now I’m remembering key moments, like Basil’s beating his mini Cooper with a branch.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    One foot in the grave is a hard to predict series.
    It’s a beeb series, so no pink bits on parade, and it’s not ostensibly rude, BUT it covers some dark stuff from time to time. I’d say it was fine for all the family (the kids won’t be too interested), but will raise eyebrows from time to time with guilty laughs.

    It’s about a recently retired grumply old git (curmudgeon) and his long suffering wife. His catch phrase is, ‘I don’t believe it!’

    I was never a huge fan, but I have watched some episodes years ago. I could tell you a couple of funny bits that I enjoyed, but they might (put you off by) give the wrong impression.

    Take it for a spin on Netflix rather than buy it…you might like it

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    ‘surreal humor’? (I’ll forgive your colonial spelling :))
    not really, or nowhere remotely near the level of ‘The League Of Gentlemen’ (not at all, nada, niet, rien)

    TLOG has ‘Tubbs’ a woman (played by a guy) married to her brother (with ‘child’) who is asked by a driver if she can spare any fuel for his broken down car. She asks if he wants 5* petrol or diesel, and proceeds to fill the 5 imperial gallon can with her 5* pee (i.e. urinates petrol or diesel on request!)

    My favourite character is the well intentioned, merchant of accidental death, vetinary ‘Mr Chinnery’. Whenever you hear his signature ‘oh hello!’ you know something is going to die in a comical manner.

    From the reliable (in these circumstances) Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royston_Vasey)
    Also, the main page
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_The_League_of_Gentlemen)

    Royston Vasey is a small fictional town in the north of England, and the setting of the BBC television comedy series The League of Gentlemen. It has made famous the comedic phrase “a Local Shop for Local People”. Royston Vasey is the real name of British stand-up comedian Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown, who played the part of the town’s Mayor in a cameo appearance. Filming of the television series took place in the Derbyshire village of Hadfield.

    The preceding radio series On the Town with the League of Gentlemen was set in the equally fictional and almost identical town of Spent.

    [edit] Town

    The town has a sign which declares “Welcome to Royston Vasey. You’ll never leave!” The first building the visitor comes across is the “local shop”, located on a lonely hillside moor. The town itself is some distance from the local shop, which is accessed by a small hill track and a new railway line.

    In the first television series of The League of Gentlemen a construction company called PQ Construction threatens the isolation of Royston Vasey by building a “New Road” near the Local Shop. The project is first delayed when a monster (later revealed to be parts of a goat, a pig and a chimp crudely stitched together) is unearthed on the construction site and comes to an end in the final episode when the owner of PQ Construction, David Tattsyrup, is revealed to be the son of the proprietors of the local shop who convince him to “live locally.”

    In the second series Royston Vasey receives visits from both a travelling circus and a group of German exchange students. The town becomes gradually overrun by a deadly nosebleed epidemic which causes a high percentage of the town’s residents to experience incessant bleeding and death, usually within 24 hours. Eventually the epidemic devastates the town, with the Ministry of Health and the armed forces running riot in a desperate attempt to staunch the plague. The cause of the nosebleeds can be traced to a substance known only as the “Special Stuff”, a highly addictive and obscure substance served by demonic butcher Hilary Briss, which becomes deadly when cut with sandwich paste. However, the surviving local residents mistakenly accuse the Local Shop of spreading the disease and burn it to the ground.

    In the third and final series, several of the residents of Royston Vasey are involved in a traffic collision which leaves one resident (Lance Longthorne) and a gardening show presenter dead while another local (Geoff Tipps) is given extreme facial disfigurement. The travelling circus also returns.

    In the film The League of Gentlemen’s Apocalypse, the town is on the verge of destruction when the League of Gentlemen – Jeremy Dyson, Mark Gatiss, Steve Pemberton, and Reece Shearsmith – agree to stop writing for Royston Vasey. This causes meteorites to rain from the sky until the entire town is razed to the ground. The destruction of Royston Vasey can only be prevented when all four of the writers are killed, but it transpires that the entire ordeal was conceived by Dyson while unconscious in a hospital.

    The League of Gentlemen book, A Local Book for Local People, released between the second and third series, describes Royston Vasey’s history in a brochure, from its beginnings, as mentioned in an appendix to the Domesday Book as “an hutte with a pigge outside” to the construction of the town hall in the late 1930s, as designed by Albert Speer.

  • Just1X

    veterinary surgeon Mr Chinnery’

    any chance that I can convince you that I used the UK spelling there?

  • Just1X

    Download the rar (like .zip) of the first radio series (worked for me)

    On the town with the League of Gentlemen
    http://www.mediafire.com/?lxttg393t4cqhhd

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    it’s not like he didn’t warn the car before giving it a damn good thrashing…

    Hope hubby likes the audio stuff. The first episode has two Chinnery executions (~13:30 the first one IIRC), the second has my absolute favourite (~10:30 the Hamster, I kid you not). The TV series is a little more polished and funnier, but the preceding radio stuff is free and there’s a big character overlap.

    The car is an Austin 1100 Countryman, considerably less sporty than a Mini Cooper. 1.1l engine (less than 2 imperial pints), Countryman usually means a bit of wood in the external body work…

    A Mini Cooper would have been a bit cool (John Cooper became an auto racing legend with his rear-engined chassis design that would eventually change the face of the sport at its highest levels, from Formula One to the Indianapolis 500. The Mini Cooper — was adored by both rally racers and ordinary road drivers)

    • @Just1X

      it’s not like he didn’t warn the car before giving it a damn good thrashing…

      That’s what was so hilarious – the anthropomorphizing of the car. Ah, an Austin makes sense. You’re right, a mini Cooper would have been way too cool. Chinnery is a rather odd looking guy, but no doubt that adds to his character. Does he ever succeed as a vet? Doesn’t work get around that his track record is poor?

      BTW, my first car was a British Leyland Sunbeam, 1966. It was a hand me down to me in 1972, and I loved that car. I recently saw one in Boston – the first time ever, though you can still see them in LA from time to time.

  • Just1X

    @Susan
    it’s funny that I generally don’t like comedy based on stupid people, I hate Mr Bean, stoner comedies don’t appeal in general. Blackadder series II is my favourite, it’s darker and he’s far more intelligent than in series I (you have watched Blackadder, right? if S1 doesn’t appeal, try S2).
    But somehow Basil makes me laugh while I’m telling my TV that he should stop digging that hole he’s in now. Manuel, the Spanish waiter, becomes Italian when they sold the series to Spain (IIRC). Every country has a suitable Manuel-donor neighbour. FTR I don’t think that Manuel would be Spanish if they remade it now; the stereotype (that I guess existed) has been lost in time. Also PC would forbid such a (beloved) character. “I know nothing”

    LOG

    Dr. Matthew Chinnery

    Appears in:
    Series 1, Series 2, The Christmas Special, Live at Drury Lane

    Played By:
    Mark Gatiss

    Quickie Bio:
    A sweet man who only wants to help, but he is a veterinarian who ultimately kills every animal he comes into contact with. Apparently, this touch-of-death is the result of a curse that was placed upon his Great-Grandfather, Dr. Edmund Chinnery, back in 1895. A vet in the tradition of All Creatures Great and Small, he rides a bicycle to get to his patients. He is called in to help the investigation of a mysterious creature unearthed during the construction of the new road, and eventually performs Barbara’s sex-change operation.

    Desperate to stop hurting animals, he tries working in a pub, but 4 drayman’s horses die on his first shift. He is apparently cured of his curse after talking to a newly reformed Bernice at the end of The Christmas Special.

    Useless Trivia:

    Dr. Chinnery bears a close resemblance to the veterinarian in All Creatures Great and Small.
    The dog Chinnery begins to drag behind his bike in Series 1 is owned by producer Sarah Smith.
    Chinnery’s autopsy of “the beast” (Series 1, Episode 4) was heavily based on the autopsy scene from the movie Jaws, right down to the request for a glass of water.

    Quotes:

    Hello…
    I have some rather upsetting news…

    1966 is an excellent vintage. I knew of ‘Talbot Sunbeams’ (which was a car, rather than a company – 1979), but I didn’t know that there was a connection to Chrysler, also tie ups with Shelby and Lotus. A proper sporting heritage.

    Did you have an ‘Imp’? a ‘Hillman Imp’ in the UK, a sporty competitor to the Mini.
    “‘Coupe’ variants badged respectively as the Hillman Imp Californian, the Sunbeam Stiletto and (as here) the Singer Chamois coupe featured a more steeply raked rear window which could not be opened”

    Thanks for causing me to expand my knowledge;
    http://www.rootes-chrysler.co.uk/car-history/history-sunbeam.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillman_Imp

    • Blackadder series II is my favourite, it’s darker and he’s far more intelligent than in series I (you have watched Blackadder, right? if S1 doesn’t appeal, try S2).

      Yes, my husband loves Blackadder, and of course, we enjoy “Dr. House” as well. 🙂

      I like Mr. Bean too, though. Not his stupidity, but the physical comedy that Rowan Atkinson does so well. He’s got the most flexible and malleable face I’ve ever seen.

      But somehow Basil makes me laugh while I’m telling my TV that he should stop digging that hole he’s in now.

      John Cleese is even more brilliant with physical comedy. In that episode where he’s racing around for the duck, he moves with that “ministry of silly walks” gait, his upper body totally erect while his bent legs shuffle like crazy. He’s just hilarious.

      Manuel is definitely not PC today, they’d never get away with that! I wonder too, if they could get away with “Don’t mention the war” today, poking fun at Germans.

      Chinnery sounds like something my husband will love. I’ll have to figure out how to watch it here on TV.

      Here’s the car I had, considerably more sporty than some earlier versions of the Sunbeam:

      sa

  • Just1X

    Nice car! I share the American fixation with cabriolets. It’s true if you keep the speed above 70mph the rain goes over the top.

    TLOG is very hit and miss and pricey from Amazon.com, but if you try the radio series (try as a free download from the link that I gave above) you’ve a good guide to whether you’ll like the tv series (there’s a big overlap of material in S1 TV and the radio show). I’m currently watching S1 having listened to the downloaded radio show yesterday. The Chinnery vs Hamster sketch cracks me up every time.

  • @Just @Susan
    I just saw The Intouchables french movie and contrary to what I though “the premise of a quadriplegic guy and his black caregiver based on a true story” made it look like a “sentimental pretentious movie that will push all the right buttons to make you cry” is actually a very smart and charming comedy.
    I spent most of the movie laughing and the movie is so UnPC that without sex and violence was rated R. I totally recommend it to watch it, in fact I would watch it again if I can convince the hubby or anyone else to go with me. I saw it with my Mother In Love and we both left the movie feeling refreshed in spite of the heat and then we went to eat french food. Lovely afternoon. So a must watch

    Talking about that…
    I got kicked out from my regular movie forum and I was thinking to use the forum part to try and talk movies with other Hussiers…can I?

    • @Anacaona

      I got kicked out from my regular movie forum and I was thinking to use the forum part to try and talk movies with other Hussiers…can I?

      Of course! But who would kick you out of anything?

  • Just1X

    @Ana,

    You ‘guys’ are months ahead of the UK film scene, so I’ll be a spectator more than a poster, but cool idea. I’ll take a gander ‘the intouchables’ when it comes out;

    “The Intouchables (2011)
    Intouchables (original title)
    112 min – Comedy | Drama – 21 September 2012 (UK)

    see what I mean about delayed? and it’s a French film zut alors! ce n’est pas juste (quelque chose comme ca)

    BTW imdb recommends (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1064932/) Welcome to the Sticks (Bienvenue chez les Ch’tis).

  • You ‘guys’ are months ahead of the UK film scene, so I’ll be a spectator more than a poster, but cool idea. I’ll take a gander ‘the intouchables’ when it comes out;

    If it makes you feel better I don’t even know if they are going to bring it to my original country Dominican Republic. Maybe in a festival given that has won many awards so far and the “Intellectual class” loves to brag about watching “artistic” movies. Oh well they are good for something I would had never watched some movies if they wouldn’t bring them to brag. See the elites are good for something…sometimes 😉

    I will add the other one to my list. 🙂

  • Just1X

    @Ana – bon nuit!

  • Of course! But who would kick you out of anything?

    Pointing out a bit of harsh truths about poor people and the “first worlders” didn’t liked it, is not the first time though I can be quite “honest” once in a while and mods don’t like it, I think they didn’t liked this one a lot less. 😉

    I clicked on the forum and it looks all scramble…I’m the only one that sees it that way?

    • @Anacaona

      a;lkdjfa;ldkfja;lsdk the forum is indeed scrambled. I need to reformat it, I guess. Will do that this weekend.

  • This is indeed a great survey with fascinating results. I did not expect the results to be quite so spread on the question about what makes a woman successful. I am encouraged that an overwhelming amount of men didn’t reply “is married with children.” Hooray for women having careers! I’m a bit horrified that such a high percentage of men and women have never been tested for STDs. That, my friends, is a necessary evil for EVERYONE.